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[rickvoid]

The US Dwarven Constitution, first draft.

We, [Insert Group Name Here], the Founders and fellow-Dwarves of [Insert Fortress Name Here], in Order to form a more Dwarven Union, evade the Hammerer, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Magma to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for [Insert Fort Name Here].

Article I:
Any claimed dwarf can make a proposal. They may make up to three proposals per dwarven year.

To kill a claimed dwarf, and by extension, to do nothing to save a claimed dwarf from death, requires a 6/7 majority.

To harm non-dwarf intelligents who are not hostile to us requires a 2/3 majority.

To amend or abolish an existing law requires a 6/7 majority

To do anything hostile involving magma requires a 6/7 majority. Other uses for magma require only a simple 3/5 majority.

All other decisions require a simple 1/2 majority, with the elected mayor holding the deciding vote in the case of a tie.

A proposal shall be considered successful or failed as soon as a number of votes equalling the required majority are tallied; there is no need to wait until everyone has voted.


Quote this paragraph and add something to it. My brain/thinky organ doesn't want to work tonight.

[Arrkhal]

Well, going without fluff for the moment, how about for the most basic laws:

Anyone can propose whatever they want for a vote.

To change the law requires a 6/7 majority.

To kill a dwarf, and by extension, to do nothing to save a dwarf from death, requires a 6/7 majority.

To harm non-dwarf intelligents who are not hostile to us requires a 2/3 majority.

To do anything involving magma requires a 2/3 majority.

All other decisions require a simple 1/2 majority, with the elected mayor holding the deciding vote in the case of a tie.

New players receive retroactive votes on previous decisions, and may elect to break a tie in order to resurrect a failed proposal or cancel a current one.

A proposal shall be considered successful or failed as soon as a number of votes equalling the required majority are tallied; there is no need to wait until everyone has voted.

One thing that needs more discussion:

I really don't like the in-game justice system for a democracy game.  Why should immigrant nobles have that kind of power when no one else does?  This is a democracy!  If I say that we have to produce gold items and it gets voted down, no one gets beaten or jailed.  It should be no different for a snooty, non-working noble.

Simply not appointing a sheriff means that the only consequences of a failed mandate will be a  bad thought for the mandater.  "Well, I thought it was a good proposal.  Hmph."

In the case of actual crimes, mainly the result of tantrumming, we should probably decide on a case-by-case basis whether to punish, isolate, or rehabilitate (or some kind of combination) the criminal.  Ideally, this decision wouldn't be affected by whether or not the culprit is a player's dwarf.

[rickvoid]

I agree with the following, and suggest not changing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyone can propose whatever they want for a vote.

To kill a dwarf, and by extension, to do nothing to save a dwarf from death, requires a 6/7 majority.

To harm non-dwarf intelligents who are not hostile to us requires a 2/3 majority.

All other decisions require a simple 1/2 majority, with the elected mayor holding the deciding vote in the case of a tie.

A proposal shall be considered successful or failed as soon as a number of votes equalling the required majority are tallied; there is no need to wait until everyone has voted.

I will accept the following if amended as follows: (changes in bold)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

To amend or abolish an existing law requires a 6/7 majority

To do anything hostile involving magma requires a 6/7 majority. Other uses for magma require only a simple 3/5 majority.

On retroactive votes, I disagree. First off, that would be annoyingly difficult to keep track of. Plus, having new players decide that a law that had passed at the beginning of the game was actually voted down destroy's the amendment and abolishment system, as it is much easier for new players to get rid of laws than current players doing it through the established method.

On the subject of submitting/resubmitting proposals:

Each player is allowed to submit for vote up to three proposals per dwarven year. At least one other player must openly express support for the law before it can be voted upon.

If a proposal failed, it may be resubmitted unchanged the second year following the year it was originally submitted. Thus, a proposal that failed year-one may not before reviewed before year three. If the proposal has been amended sufficiently, it may recieve a second vote during the calendar year, but expends one of the proposers proposals. A proposal that has failed twice in the same calander year may not be amended and voted upon again, it follows the rules for failed proposals as listed above. This shall prevent annoying proposals from becoming horribly annoying.

Proposals that have been voted down may not be reviewed and resubmitted for two years after being struck down. As an example, a proposal struck down in year 2 may not be re-proposed until year 5.
In regards to the following:

One thing that needs more discussion:

I really don't like the in-game justice system for a democracy game.  Why should immigrant nobles have that kind of power when no one else does?  This is a democracy!  If I say that we have to produce gold items and it gets voted down, no one gets beaten or jailed.  It should be no different for a snooty, non-working noble.

Simply not appointing a sheriff means that the only consequences of a failed mandate will be a  bad thought for the mandater.  "Well, I thought it was a good proposal.  Hmph."

In the case of actual crimes, mainly the result of tantrumming, we should probably decide on a case-by-case basis whether to punish, isolate, or rehabilitate (or some kind of combination) the criminal.  Ideally, this decision wouldn't be affected by whether or not the culprit is a player's dwarf.

I think in-game justice and noble mandates would make for a nice element of randomness that would supplement the game rather well. Plus, we could vote on whether or not to fry the offending noble. Always a plus. 

[tyl110]

I would like to join this at the first migrant wave, preferably male, no profession preferences.

[addictgamer]

Part A:
Section 1:
I demand the next available dwarf in this bureaucracy.
Make him/her a armorer/metalsmith/engineer. Cross-train, since no immigrants arrive with all 3 (99% of the time).
Name the dwarf Capitan Coder.

Section 2:
I mandate all new laws and subjects to be voted upon to be appended to the first post in this topic, so that members do not have to read every page word-for-word.

Part B: (Some of these suggestions may be repeats, since I skimmed through everything other people have posted.)
Section 1: -Political parties
I think it should be possible for a member(s) to choose to create their own party.
The success of the party depends on varying factors. Ex. If the party consists of the majority of all dwarfs who are legible for voting, then it will obviously dominate most decisions made in the fort.

Section 2: -Security
All dwarfs are enlisted to certain rights given to them by Armok.
A. You cannot execute any dwarf for no reason save for nobles that re not legible to voting.

B. Practicing magic is prohibited (using tools like tweak and companion to do things) unless a 7/8 vote occurs.

C. If the fort is faced by any hostile threats, the mayor has the power to command our military forces and take any and all necessary actions to keep our adamite safe us safe and alive.

D. If the fort is to enter a tantrum spiral, and ultimate defeat is at our doorstep. The mayer may set a resolution to abondon the fortress and flee to a new location where our lives may be resumed. Requires a 7/8 vote.

E. Each Political party may set up how the government inside it works. No one may interfere with this

Section 2: -Political houses, branches, etc
A. there should be 4 branches of the government.
- The nobility
Consists of nobles. All nobles have 2 votes instead of 1.
If the mayor loses their support, they may overthrow him and the community will have to elect another mayor.

- Mr. Mayor
Consists of the mayor. He may not vote, he may only set forth resolutions and conduct the political meetings.
He must have the support of at least 2 other houses/branches
Can veto bills. The voters have to take a re-vote and require twice as much of the percentage of votes as before.
Can only veto a resolution once.
If he abuses this power and exceeds 4 vetoes a season, the court can put a ban on how many times a season the mayor can veto.
The court may only put voters the same resolution once a year.

- Court
They may declare acts/resolutions/laws unconstitutional, and require a 8/8 vote.
Any members in the court may not vote on laws.
They also handle the punishment/judgement of criminals.

- Voters
They set forth proposals, resolutions, laws, and vote for them. Any branch can set forth stuff actually, but these guys do the main voting.
This branch is made up of any dwarfs that can vote.



I would like this to be the root of how it works.
IMHO, it is nowhere near perfect, but can be improved as time goes by.
Kind of is a constitution.

Will you take anything from it, or put the layout as a base for the government?

[Sheb]

I request a dwarf i an immigration wave. Make him/her the official bookeeper/trader/manager if you don't mind.

[Thanshin]

Let's see, if my fingers aren't deceiving me, we've got enough registered voters to make this happen.

1. Thanshin - mechanic5, appraiser2, record keeper1, negotiator1, judge of intent1
2. Curris - fisher3/engraver3/swimmer2/architect1/comedian1
3. Arrkhal - grower4/brewer3/cook3
4. Quinntan - miner5/mason5
5. 100killer9 - woodcutter5/axedwarf5
6. Rickvoid - carpenter5/bone carver5 and unskilled miner
7. Spartan117 - miner4/mason4/stonecrafter2

think a mechanic/broker would round out the party nicely, but Thanshin's skills will be up to him.

First order of business should probably be to get everyone's exact skill values set in stone.  Then elect a mayor.  Then draft up and vote on a constitution.

I've added my skills and set the others (those who said ranges). We have two masons; I don't know if that bothers you.

We still need to elect the Mayor!

[Thanshin]

I agree with the following, and suggest not changing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyone can propose whatever they want for a vote.

To kill a dwarf, and by extension, to do nothing to save a dwarf from death, requires a 6/7 majority.

To harm non-dwarf intelligents who are not hostile to us requires a 2/3 majority.

All other decisions require a simple 1/2 majority, with the elected mayor holding the deciding vote in the case of a tie.

A proposal shall be considered successful or failed as soon as a number of votes equalling the required majority are tallied; there is no need to wait until everyone has voted.

I will accept the following if amended as follows: (changes in bold)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

To amend or abolish an existing law requires a 6/7 majority

To do anything hostile involving magma requires a 6/7 majority. Other uses for magma require only a simple 3/5 majority.

I agree to all of the above.

I think in-game justice and noble mandates would make for a nice element of randomness that would supplement the game rather well. Plus, we could vote on whether or not to fry the offending noble. Always a plus. 

I agree with having a justice system, for fun, and letting the game randomly creating mandates. The democratic populace can simply vote to execute a noble for dwarven treason.

Dwarven Treason: To mandate an item impossible to create with available means and then punish a free dwarf for not fulfilling it.

[Thanshin]

We only need a few things now:

1 - To elect a Mayor: Who of the first dwarves considers himself capable of running a fort with Dig Deeper. do it well enough as to allow the extra difficulty of having to follow democratically elected fort blueprint and rules, and also having the writing skill to tell the rest of the dwarves what happens inbetween pauses to vote?

If none of us has played enough or thinks he can safely be the Mayor, I have no problem with leaving my post to a volunteer strong player/storyteller from some other community game and reenter in the first migration.

2 - To think of a way of voting the fort blueprints without specific laws. For example, as soon as the embark done, posting a map of the location to start voting for the initial strategy.

Here we must try not to set restricting laws but simple rules:
- We'll use that pond as water deposit.
- We'll dig the dining room on the stone level to be able to engrave later.
- We'll redirect that river through a lever activated door so we can build a water trap in the future.
- We'll send the woodcutter to kill that red dragon so we can have some early meat.

etc...

[100killer9]

Nobles should not get two votes.
Otherwise I vote to kill all of them except the dungeon master.

[Arrkhal]

Hm.  How about, in roleplaying terms, we treat the nobles as though they were an organized crime faction whom we can't afford to openly antagonize?  "Hey, youse guys bedda make some gold items, if you know what's good for you.  I'd hate for my friend the hammerer here to accidentally drop his hammer on your best mason's fingers and kneecaps."  That'd also be why they get everything for free when the economy kicks in, they extort it out of the honest, hard-working shopkeeps.

I guess they could also be lobbyists.  Tons of money, they get everything for free, do no work, make idiotic demands... that's a lobbyist, all right.  And if a prominent politicaldwarf openly defies their demands, whatever party they're lobbying for incites a riot.  "This 'democracy' is destroying our way of life!"  Thus resulting in either a beating, or the politicaldwarf has to "go into hiding" for their jail sentence.  Could make the jail actually be a fortified bunker with a year worth of food and booze, and some weapons.

I've added my skills and set the others (those who said ranges). We have two masons; I don't know if that bothers you.

My standard build has 2 mason 5s, so I'm not concerned.  Miner/stonecrafter, carpenter/mechanic, mason/bowyer, mason/siege engineer, grower/weaponsmith, grower/armorsmith, broker/broker.  A little defense-oriented, but it works.

1 - To elect a Mayor: Who of the first dwarves considers himself capable of running a fort with Dig Deeper. do it well enough as to allow the extra difficulty of having to follow democratically elected fort blueprint and rules, and also having the writing skill to tell the rest of the dwarves what happens inbetween pauses to vote?

Well, I never play with Dig Deeper.  I only ever use my own custom mod, which doesn't enhance difficulty any, just adds in a winter trading race (called the Arrkhals, which are basically size 8 furry tentacle demons), has a couple gore damage trapcomps, standardizes animal sizes a bit, and reduced most non-predator bite damages.  Yet somehow, carp with a bite damage of 1:2 still mangle my dwarves.  One time, I had 3 fisherdwarves in the first immigration wave and didn't notice until they all died (didn't help that the wagon was still there, so that's where they congregated).  Ended up with 2 named carp and 1 named longnose gar.

It does make adventurer mode harder, though, as wolves, horses, cows, and hoary marmots all go up one size.  Mountain goats increase by 2 sizes.  And I'm just about always a kobold adventurer.

If no one wants to try it, would it increase difficulty sufficiently to make the Arrkhals be hostile?  You can't tell me you wouldn't crap your pants if a horde of 7 foot tall furry things with tentacles were attacking your house.  I could also remove the tentacles and rename 'em to Sergals, for a theme game.  My kobolds are already modded into cutebolds.

[Overspeculated]

Sign me up in the first immigration wave then, since all slots are taken.
Also a suggestion:
Seize the Power! (also known as despot mode)
Is the decision making process taking too long? Take decisions into your own hands for a while, before the people either:
a) rebel and kill you. (1/3 majority vote)
b) force you back into democracy (2/3 majority vote)

[rickvoid]

We only need a few things now:

1 - To elect a Mayor: Who of the first dwarves considers himself capable of running a fort with Dig Deeper. do it well enough as to allow the extra difficulty of having to follow democratically elected fort blueprint and rules, and also having the writing skill to tell the rest of the dwarves what happens inbetween pauses to vote?

If none of us has played enough or thinks he can safely be the Mayor, I have no problem with leaving my post to a volunteer strong player/storyteller from some other community game and reenter in the first migration.

2 - To think of a way of voting the fort blueprints without specific laws. For example, as soon as the embark done, posting a map of the location to start voting for the initial strategy.

Here we must try not to set restricting laws but simple rules:
- We'll use that pond as water deposit.
- We'll dig the dining room on the stone level to be able to engrave later.
- We'll redirect that river through a lever activated door so we can build a water trap in the future.
- We'll send the woodcutter to kill that red dragon so we can have some early meat.

etc...

I take it you're not interested in running it?

I've never played dig deeper, I'd be running it on a 1.X GHZ laptop, and I go back to work (took time off for my daughter's birth) next week. I probably should not be mayor.

I agree that the early fort set-up should be simple, and should consist less of laws and more of guidelines. Like I said before, the complications later should come from a slow build up of beaurocratic red-tape.

Dwarven Treason: To mandate an item impossible to create with available means and then punish a free dwarf for not fulfilling it.

This needs to be added to the end of the constitution, along with justice/punishment guides.

Hm.  How about, in roleplaying terms, we treat the nobles as though they were an organized crime faction whom we can't afford to openly antagonize?  "Hey, youse guys bedda make some gold items, if you know what's good for you.  I'd hate for my friend the hammerer here to accidentally drop his hammer on your best mason's fingers and kneecaps."  That'd also be why they get everything for free when the economy kicks in, they extort it out of the honest, hard-working shopkeeps.

Arrkhal, I fecking love this. It should totally be this way.

"Urist McDwarf, Robber Baron, was imprisoned today for Tax Evasion. A wall was built in front of his door, and booze and food are being dropped down to him while the court deliberates his punishment."

Addict, I'll go through your suggestions later today (there's some things I like, others I don't) and I'll also update the first draft of the Dwarven Constitution. But first I need to take my daughter to her appointment and buy some stamps for my wife. See you guys later.

[addictgamer]

My ideas are just ideas, they are not meant to be the only part of the government, if they were, I would have spent all night typing them up then posted it this morning.

Either way, I cannot play as mayor either for a: I am very busy just with school.
b: I'm working random things which consume 5 hours of my free time.
c: I never even tried 'Dig Deeper'


My thoughts on some of the above mentioned things:
I like the despot thing of making decisions takes too long, then you can take full power...

Here are some more suggestions...Just trying to 'finalize' the government and make it, more realistic.

I think there should be protection for dwarfs to not allow any “Indian removals” to occur, in the game, that would probably be resembled by executing them for no reason.

It might also be wise for there to be a “federal” bank set up once the economy arrives.
It basically is where you put a bunch of minted coins to be used if needed.

May I suggest we play with the obsidian mod?

[Arrkhal]

So, to summarize the mayor situation so far:

Thanshin - negatory
Curris - unknown
Arrkhal - maybe
Quinntan - unknown
100killer9 - noes
Rickvoid - nope
Spartan117 - tentacle demons, no!
Addictgamer - nuh-uh

In my case, I'd be willing to do mayor, but only with either vanilla DF (plus the Mayday tileset and things that come with, like the economic stone mod and cat_mouth fix); or my own modset, which reduces most animals' damages, standardizes sizes (size 2 is up to 8 pounds, 3 is up to 16, 4 is up to 32, etc.), and adds a winter trading race and/or sergals.

Sergals are size 8 narrow and use steel weaponry and armor.  I didn't want to [BABYSNATCHER] or [ITEM_THIEF] or de-language-ize them, so Adventurer mode would be used to incite war before embark, to enhance difficulty.  All triggers are set to 3, so they'd be late-game siegers.  The winter traders are, for practical purposes, the same as humans.  Which ones are used, if any, would be up to a vote if needed.

With the number of founding players who have no idea how to play with Dig Deeper, it may be a bad idea to require that mod, regardless of who's mayor.  "I propose that we bake the mithril into biscuits!  Huh, what do you mean it's not a food?"