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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Kipi on November 06, 2012, 04:47:37 am

Title: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 06, 2012, 04:47:37 am
ATTENTION!

This research has been on hiatus since 20th of November due personal reasons. The current plan is to continue this in few weeks (during February). I have also released the first, unpolished and incomplete, version of the research in DFFD (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7326) as PDF file. There are currently things in the file that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, I hope I'm able to update this thread in near future.




Some time ago I had a problem when I tried to make a proper rooms for my monarch. I didn't have too much spare metals and I wanted to know which materials should be enough to make the rooms to Royal without wasting any valuable materials for nothing. I tried to search but nothing came up, at least nothing specific enough, only theories and myths. And thus I decided to conduct a research of my own to actually figure out all the variables and calculations used.

Around the same time I also decided to start a blog about dwarf fortress. Now, it has been some time since that happened and I decided that the first entry of the blog will talk about this research. Unfortunately the research has become quite big and it's not yet finished, but I decided that it would be a good time to publish the first part of the results. And, since I think that there are other players who are interesting to find this out, I decided to make a thread here in forums as well.

When I have finished the research I will publish a document I'm writing about it, which is already getting quite long (35 pages so far). In the meantime I will keep updating this thread and the blog of the current progress of the research.

The blog in question can be found here (http://dfinsider.wordpress.com/).

If you want more details about the research I suggest that you read the blog post I have written as well as all the upcoming updates. In this thread I will mostly compile the data. Of course, suggestions are always accepted. Every detail will be tested and included to the final report, with the description of the testing methods, my own thoughts of the results and random ramblings I just ended up writing.

Terminology
In this research I use the following terminology in calculations:

Results
Since there will be lots of information written in this section I will put everything in spoilers. Next to the title is also the current situation of the given part.

Room Tiles - Partially Done
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Furniture - Partially Done
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Smoothing - Finished
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Engraving - Finished
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gaps in the wall - Partially done
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Room overlapping - Under work

Workshops - Under work

Special features - Under work


"Interesting" facts
These facts are listed here just for fun and may or may not be accurate. I think these also describe the size of this project quite well.

Number of MS Excel sheets used: 16
Time wasted spent: Over 150 hours
Number of A4 paper sheets filled: 20
Amount of rooms created: 1500+
Amount of worlds generated: 17
Total number of times I used the "Die" feature of DFHack: Too many, careful estimation is around 100-200 per day.
Amount of tantrum spirals: 2
Size of final report (WIP): 37 pages
My sanity level: 33%
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 06, 2012, 04:48:24 am
RESERVED IN CASE OF NEED!
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: AutomataKittay on November 06, 2012, 05:26:30 am
If it helps any, I typically makes my more valuable rooms from dyed cloth ropes with dyed cloth decoration, I worked out once that they're roughly on par with steel or gold chain without decoration. And they're fairly cheap, labor-wise and easily avaliable.

I also uses obsidian blocks to lay the room out, and obsidian for furnishings. Mechanisms too, if I feels like giving them extra decoration that's not cloth ropes, since statues blocks designation of room in corners. But you can put statues -after- designation without issue :D
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 06, 2012, 05:39:03 am
Yeah, I know those tricks.

What I'm trying to figure out here is the exact calculations used to determine the room quality. For example, I have mined out a 11*11 sized area; it has size of 13*13=169 (11*11 are the floors and the rest is made by the walls at the edge). What if I wanted to make it Decent? Or even Royal? How much value I need to add to the room to reach those qualities?

The problem in DF is that the exact value of the room is never shown anywhere, only the quality. This is especially a problem if I have only limited access to valuable materials, like obsidian or metals, and I want to save as much material I can. When this research is completed I can just calculate how many "value points" I'm still missing after I have mined, smoothed and engraved the room, points I need to get through furniture.

Also, the results of this research can also be used to calculate the minimum size of room needed to reach the desired quality. For some this may not be a issue but some, like I at times, want to save as much space as possible and thus smaller rooms are better.


Oh, and constructed walls/floors will be tested out as well. After all, there are players who wants to build their fortress above ground... ;)


EDIT: I decided to do some teasing and uploaded a screenshot I took from the report file I'm writing. It's from the point when I tested out smoothing, especially TP.  :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: AutomataKittay on November 06, 2012, 05:44:46 am
Don't forget trying out weapon traps!

Best of the luck t'ya, I will enjoy seeing what you can work out :D
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Ruhn on November 06, 2012, 05:29:04 pm
I like it, especially the point of room value when using doors versus a staircase.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: SeymoreGlass on November 06, 2012, 11:36:36 pm
Posting to watch. This is some serious !!science!! going on here. Make us proud.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 07, 2012, 01:36:15 am
I like it, especially the point of room value when using doors versus a staircase.

Yeah, though the stairs were used just to eliminate the difference caused by the gap where door can be placed. I can reveal this already, even though the gap experiment is still going; you will need a quite valuable door to cover the reduction caused by gap, especially if you plan to engrave every section of the room.

But that's just assumption since I'm still experimenting the gaps and haven't touched doors yet.

Posting to watch. This is some serious !!science!! going on here. Make us proud.

Thanks... though replaces "serious" with "insane" and you got it right... :p
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: chevil on November 07, 2012, 01:51:37 am
  • The direction of engraving does affect the result. If the engraving task is completed from outside the room, only the smoothing is counted to room value and EV will be left out.
This changes a lot. For maximum room value walls should be two tiles thick.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 07, 2012, 02:40:27 am
  • The direction of engraving does affect the result. If the engraving task is completed from outside the room, only the smoothing is counted to room value and EV will be left out.
This changes a lot. For maximum room value walls should be two tiles thick.

Or you can force the engraver(s) to do their job from inside the room. The empty space behind the wall doesn't have any effect, only the direction.

In fact, this discovery is quite crucial since somebody may want to cramp all the noble rooms together, like I do. I usually tend to smooth all the noble rooms but try to avoid the engraving of the rooms that doesn't really need it. Because of this I have usually went with the walls 2 tiles thick to separate a noble room that shouldn't be engraved from a room that should be. Now, with this information, you can just lock the "lesser" noble rooms for the duration of engraving. Or even better, lock the engravers inside the room(s) you want to be engraved... :D


EDIT: Oh, and this behavior was somewhat known already, though nobody has, AFAIK, actually confirmed it by research before...
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: chevil on November 07, 2012, 03:10:44 am
  • The direction of engraving does affect the result. If the engraving task is completed from outside the room, only the smoothing is counted to room value and EV will be left out.
This changes a lot. For maximum room value walls should be two tiles thick.

Or you can force the engraver(s) to do their job from inside the room. The empty space behind the wall doesn't have any effect, only the direction.

In fact, this discovery is quite crucial since somebody may want to cramp all the noble rooms together, like I do. I usually tend to smooth all the noble rooms but try to avoid the engraving of the rooms that doesn't really need it. Because of this I have usually went with the walls 2 tiles thick to separate a noble room that shouldn't be engraved from a room that should be. Now, with this information, you can just lock the "lesser" noble rooms for the duration of engraving. Or even better, lock the engravers inside the room(s) you want to be engraved... :D


EDIT: Oh, and this behavior was somewhat known already, though nobody has, AFAIK, actually confirmed it by research before...

My usual bedrooms for dwarves are just 1x5 strips divided by one tile thick walls. When fully engraved only about half of them become royal bedrooms. Now i know why.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 12, 2012, 07:50:41 am
How long does it take to smooth out 2800 tiles from 12 dwarves? Freaking long!

Okay, I haven't updated the progress of this science in few days. So, I decided to post a new entry in the blog, discussing about the gaps in the wall and the penalty those cause to room value. It's far from complete and there are tons of things I need to figure out but at least I have some new information to share. I will update the first post when there are more details figured out but here is a quick summary of the discoveries I have made. More detailed description can be read from the latest blog entry.

Initial gap penalties with one piece of furniture:
And some general rules I have discovered:

As stated in the blog not all of the above "rules" are 100% confirmed or are tested only when there was one piece of furniture present.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: HiEv on November 12, 2012, 12:59:54 pm
FYI, I added a link to this thread in the "Room (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Room)" DF wiki entry.

Keep up the good work!  :)
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 12, 2012, 02:03:09 pm
FYI, I added a link to this thread in the "Room (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Room)" DF wiki entry.

Keep up the good work!  :)

Thanks!

When the research is fully complete we can do some heavy updating on the wiki... and by "we" I mean somebody else who has more experience with such things than I do, which is basically zero.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Ruhn on November 12, 2012, 03:15:39 pm
And some general rules I have discovered:
  • The value of furniture used to create the room doesn't affect GR.
Is GR a new term?  I didn't see it listed.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 12, 2012, 04:00:43 pm
And some general rules I have discovered:
  • The value of furniture used to create the room doesn't affect GR.
Is GR a new term?  I didn't see it listed.


Yes, it is. It stands for "Gap Reduction" and it means how much more valuable the room must be to reach the next quality level. For example, Modest room requires the room value to be 100. If there is a gap in wall then the required is 100 + GR, and for Modest room GR is 15. This means the room requires the overall value of 115 to change quality.

It's not listed yet in the first post since I want to have a bit more concrete data to add first. If certain term is not listed in the first post then you should be able to find the explanation in the blog. Of course, you can also just ask here.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 14, 2012, 02:27:59 am
I updated the first post and included all the details I have been able to confirm so far. No actual new information is present, yesterday was spent mostly on confirming the general rules I posted earlier regarding the GR and one piece of furniture.

I will start working on the multiple piece of furniture next. Hopefully I have something concrete to publish later today or tomorrow morning...
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Ruhn on November 14, 2012, 12:57:02 pm
It's not listed yet in the first post since I want to have a bit more concrete data to add first. If certain term is not listed in the first post then you should be able to find the explanation in the blog. Of course, you can also just ask here.
Sorry, I can't get into blogs from work.  I will have to check it out from home sometime.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on November 16, 2012, 03:46:41 am
A quick update of the process.

So far I have been able to figure out more or less exact values for GR of one tile as well as the effect of additional furniture in GR. Maximum values for GR were already mentioned earlier, what I have been able to determine is that the minimum GR I was able to confirm for each quality level is 5. Interesting thing is that the value of additional furniture for that GR is always calculated by formula QR-30, where QR is the value requirement of the given room quality (100 for Modest, 250 for Normal, 500 for Decent and so on).

The decrease of GR is also a bit over 1 point per 10 furniture value. Unfortunately I haven't been able to determine the exact relation but it's somewhere about 1.3 per 10 furniture value. I have also been able to confirm more or less accurately the assumption that the material and quality of the extra furniture doesn't affect the result, only the pure total value.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on January 20, 2013, 03:53:49 pm
It has been over two months since I updated this project. In fact, it has been more or less exactly two months since I touched DF last time.

A lot has happened in last two months, things that are far too personal to share up here. Lets just say that I have had no time nor interest in DF (or gaming in general) lately.

Hopefully I can finally find time and interest to continue this project again in soon. I have already started my first fortress since 20th of November, though I would like to refresh my skills and knowledge a bit before I jump back to this project again. After all, this project is a enormous, much bigger than I ever thought it would be.

My plans (and hopes) are that I continue this in few weeks, depending on my real life situation and the state of the next release of DF. But, since I don't want anybody thinking that this is another announcement with no real content, I decided to publish the first version of the study in PDF format. The file can be downloaded from DFFD (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7326).

Please note that the version I uploaded hasn't been polished in any way. It may, and most probably is, very confusing at times, with lots of references that may or may not exist since I have written and edited in as I progressed in the research. It may also contain information that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, especially the discoveries I made between 16th and 20th of November. Honestly, I didn't reread the research before I made the PDF, though I will update the first post of this thread for the information I have discovered but haven't included here yet.

Also, if any of you have some hard data relating to this, I'm more than happy to accept those. Just post them here or send me a PM and I will test those theories when I have a chance. That may take few weeks though, depending on when I'm ready to continue this research again.

Oh, and by the way, the file currently holds about 40 pages and is almost 1 MB in size (about 873 KB right now). And it's almost completely made from text and tables!

But yeah, I hope I'm able to continue this in few weeks.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on July 09, 2014, 03:02:26 am
Alright, time to resurrect this monster!

*Cast Rise Dead*

So, now that I'm back I do plan to continue this project with the new version. Though I'm going to wait a bit so that Toady can release at least one or two patches.

But consider this project active again!
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: clinodev on July 23, 2014, 04:35:51 pm
Yeah! Came here hoping to see your first take on mining making floor tiles match the base stone level rather than the wall it's mined out of. This seems to be the most talked about relevant change so far.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Kipi on July 24, 2014, 01:16:36 am
Do we even know if it's a bug or feature?

Of course, if it's a feature then it does make things a lot more easier to figure out other things.

My plans are to have all the world gen parameters and raws edited by the end of this week so that I can start experimenting in next week. I will probably start the science from scratch, though the early stages would be more about confirming whether the older discoveries still hold true or not.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: clinodev on July 25, 2014, 03:27:38 pm
As far as I know it's still all in flux, with the normal "that sucks"/"that rocks" opinion ratio.

If you could lay out a few hours worth of experiments that need done, homework style, I'd be happy to contribute some time once dfhack is in.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 20, 2020, 03:51:36 pm
So I decided to look at this topic, and there's few things I've noticed:

1. The thing about engraved walls using A's MV in case of wall tile counts of A>B>C no longer (44.09) seems as true.

Spoiler: no upvalue test (click to show/hide)



2. I decided to also look at GR.

Hypothesis: The value reduction is GR0*number of quarters. ✕

For this test I decided to use meager vs modest room with ≡bed≡ and 5x5 /7x7 with walls room.

Spoiler: baseline test (click to show/hide)




Conclusion:

%gap\GR% of target value   exact for Modest
0-1 sides dug   14,285%      15
1-2 sides dug   33,33¹%      34
2+ to all         100%         100

¹ Somewhere between above 33 and below 34

Further research?

Confirmation of GR for 1-2 sides being exactly 33%
Confirmation of extra furniture value reducing target value by just as much for larger gaps.

Bottomline

All of this is somewhat pointless, as demonstrated below:

|(http://i.imgur.com/O00no0F.png)|

All qualities are excellent. One has native gold mechanism built as gear assembly, other has attached it to support. One is grand, other is royal.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 07:23:16 am
Last version 0.47.04 has new values for all rooms and locations. Roughly 2x more expensive rooms have to be, but not always.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: delphonso on March 21, 2020, 07:28:11 am
This is also easier to test by looking at guildhall/temple values.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 08:03:21 am
This is also easier to test by looking at guildhall/temple values.

It would seem so. 2x seems to be the multiplication factor for most room values.
However I noticed 3500 worth instead of 2500 worth is already enough for grand bedroom, which is good enough for a duke.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 21, 2020, 09:44:09 am
I specifically didn't use 47 guildhalls due wanting to measure gaps. Looking at same tests in .4704 *interrupted by pack of giant alligators* and using a -fungiwood bed-, this is Meager:

|(https://i.imgur.com/oJdDwaH.png)|

Calced total value 99, craft guildhall value 79 (99 if bed is freed from being a room).

To test that GR matches previous values, I'd need to smooth 4 walls with 1-6 wall tiles dug.

Smoothing 1 wall:

|(https://i.imgur.com/PJSw7ks.png)|

It's modest quarters. Guildhall value went up by 4, as expected.

Digging out 1 wall to the center of south drops it back to meager, just as expected. Guildhall value remains at 83; (therefore guildhalls take no gap reduction penalty - that was pretty obvious from the get-go, and also means you can't use them to test gap reduction penalty).

After smoothing fourth wall, the value goes back up to Modest:

|(https://i.imgur.com/nPMDL5j.png)|

Exactly as expected.

Digging out the entire south side results in drop back to Meager (as expected):

|(https://i.imgur.com/3TPLzpA.png)|

That's additional 19 reduction, so should be offset by 4 smoothed walls and 1 floor tile:

|(https://i.imgur.com/q6DoTtf.png)|

It is modest again. Oh, and guildhall value: 114; 134 when bed is freed (exactly as expected).

Instead of testing further, can you provide shot of your room that uses 3500 instead of 2500? That value would more or less sync with second stage of gap reduction.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 09:52:10 am
Instead of testing further, can you provide shot of your room that uses 3500 instead of 2500? That value would more or less sync with second stage of gap reduction.

This Grand Bedroom:
The room has no walls. It is 5x5 room above constructed floor from granit blocks.
wooden bed = 120
clear glass weapon rack = 600
clear glass armor stand = 600
bismuth bronze cabinet = 720
bismuth bronze cabinet = 720
pig tail bag = 740

value of furniture = 3500
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 21, 2020, 10:00:27 am
No image? Doesn't matter, this is enough information.

But nonetheless, no walls means it is in third stage of gap reduction; that is: 100% of required value - additional furniture value: this is why you're getting "double value needed".

However, since additional furniture value is 3380, it should get reduced to the minimum of 30, provided additional furniture value reduces GR by just as much as in first stage (didn't test for this)¹.

If you remove the bag, that number should be 2640, which is still above 2500 and thus the room should still be Grand.

Removing rack and stand instead should put it to 2180, GR would be 320, room total value would be +120+25= 2325, i.e. insufficient to reach grand at 2820.

¹ To test this, might as well take the previous room:

Digging out 13th walls should drop it back to Meager:

|(https://i.imgur.com/K0gCVyP.png)|

As expected.

Adding in a +bed+ (30) value should boost value from 134 to 164. and reduce gap reduced target value from 200 to 170.

After building bed, the room remains meager. It should require only 2 smoothed floor tiles, though...

|(https://i.imgur.com/rwblOb0.png)|

And indeed, this room is modest (craft guildhall value at 150, which excludes the 20 from -bed-); Q.E.D.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 10:43:00 am
You are right.
I removed the bag. It is still grand bedroom. Value 2640 > 2500. So this value seems to be unaltered.

So maybe the 2x is applicable only to locations?

It happens I put all my dining rooms and all my offices in dinning hall areas,
so dwarves eating there will get bliss from dining in legendary location too.
Not that it helps much with stress, but it is always some boost.
If room value gets 50% discount, because of this sharing,
then there is the explanation, why I experience the 2x increased value with all values for room everywhere.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 21, 2020, 10:54:10 am
A brief test with making second one into a room (guildhall 150-30=120 ✓) and building a third +bed+ results in 150 value guildhall - no doubling. Therefore, locations don't take shared room value penalty as well - also, that penalty is 75% for rooms, not 50%. Only penalty they get is that buildings used to designate rooms aren't counted in their value.

I imagine you're seeing 2× because you're getting up to -100% of required value gap reduction room value penalty because you have no walls.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 11:39:50 am
Dinning halls are designed like dinning rooms from tables. Just not assigned to anyone. So this is 75% value hit.
The location for tavern, which I put over the dinning hall and offices is not hitting negatively these rooms value. Cool.
I rather be missing walls and take this value hit tbh. Walls just block shortest paths for my Dwarves anyhow.

Interestingly, I put in the middle of my dining hall barracks now. Though not over offices or private dining tables. The dinning hall still counts as legendary.
Idle Dwarves should now have the need of learning skill fixed by improving skill of observation.
I hope it will work like alcohol stockpile in my shrine for complaining Dwarves, that they never can pray.
Now they drink, then pray. Always. :)
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Bumber on March 21, 2020, 12:40:24 pm
So does having a room with a door generally give you a GR penalty?

Say we have the setup:
Quote
%%%%%
%.θ.%
%...%
%...%
%%┼%%
.....
Where the tiles in lime green are defined as part of the room.

Am I correct in assuming the tile behind the door counts as an edge tile for purposes of GR? And that leaving that tile as a wall would solve the issue?
Quote
%%%%%
%.θ.%
%...%
%.%.%
%%┼%%
.....
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 21, 2020, 12:54:22 pm
Am I correct in assuming the tile behind the door counts as an edge tile for purposes of GR? And that leaving that tile as a wall would solve the issue?

Toady imagined the perfect room of Dwarf as a dug out hole in a ground, there Dwarf descents over ramp or stairs?

How about, if one tile is for the downstairs instead? Like in a sort of tree house of elves.
Downstairs count as smoothed/constructed floor then?
I think monsters can not destroy floor covers from bellow. They can do that from above though.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 21, 2020, 01:43:05 pm
Downstairs count as rough floor/wall in value;= material value. BDs can't destroy buildings who they can't stand next to, so locked covers are safe.

@Bumber: To me it looks like your second room has two tiles of gap, not 0, but better test the hypothesis:

So I made modest quarters with total value 101 (guildhall value 81, as bed is excluded), by using  smoothed 2 wall, 8 floor tiles instead of 10 for 99.

Excluding 1 wall from room should drop it to 100, but remain Modest.

Before re-expanding, it is modest (Edit: On further testing, doors remove GR before they're built; without door being marked for building this is meager):

|(https://i.imgur.com/RsF2cZH.png)|

After re-expanding...It's still modest - if it took 15 value penalty, it'd need more than 10 smooth tiles, in both cases.

So yeah, it seems this diagonal approach prevent GR - though mind that in case of previous tests for second stage, digging out the corner was used as a last tile, so this isn't always true Nvm, see below.

I also discovered another interesting thing:

|(https://i.imgur.com/o1a33E6.png)|

The removed tiles in this shot didn't reduce craft guildhall value. It seems it takes into account the total value in a rectangle, even if the zone doesn't include a particular tile. However, excluding door reduced value properly (but only for door, not tile underneath).

In fact, if I paint max size zone, and then remove tiles, it keeps using original value:

|(https://i.imgur.com/7zujCtS.png)|

This Surgeon guildhall is worth 961, despite zone only including 9 tiles.

E: On a further test, the first seems to only take floor penalty as well; digging out a wall and placing a door there turns exact-100 value room from modest to meager to back to modest to back meager on reexpanding.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: muldrake on March 22, 2020, 01:49:35 am
So, currently, up until now, I have mainly designed "suites" for important dwarves by connecting a series of rooms on the same z level, with doors between them, and apparently, one of my designs is actually terrible for value, i.e. four rooms in a 2x2 connected at each adjoining wall (with a valuable door like gold).

Does this mean the optimal way of doing a "suite" like this is digging stairs down and instead of having the suites on the same z-level, have a central staircase and each room on a different level?  How much actual advantage is gained by doing this?

Also, more importantly, does using display cases to display valuable artifacts in a room actually do anything?  I have been trying to do this to get Royal level and without success.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Sarmatian123 on March 22, 2020, 07:35:00 am
If you put 500 value furniture in each sleeping room, then it gives maximum pleasure to Dwarves. No need for more for just pleasure from value.

For additional pleasure boost from the sleeping room, you could bother to check their material preferences. I usually go with 1 cabinet, as chests/bags can hide smelt-able items and I rather mark them on the floor for dump and after 1 month smelt them. If they like something cheap, then use gem setter to rise the price to 500 or just use gem setter to adorn their clear glass cabinets with something they prefer in gems.

These are 2 mood boosts, you can get from their rooms. One for sleeping and second for owning a special furniture.

Does this mean the optimal way of doing a "suite" like this is digging stairs down and instead of having the suites on the same z-level, have a central staircase and each room on a different level?  How much actual advantage is gained by doing this?

I think Toady had this vision of one large floor with workshops. By every workshop could be hatch covering descend on stairs to sleeping quarters of artisan using that workshop.

However it doesn't save any time for production any more, because Dwarves now have needs based on locations and pathing to those locations and between those locations is more frequent, then to sleeping room or dinning room to eat. I just put alcohol stockpile in shrine and 2 dinning rooms, one in tavern and second in library. I also put offices and special dinning rooms in these legendary dinning rooms. Furniture cost more, but Dwarves always get the right mood boost from dinning in legendary dinning room.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Fleeting Frames on March 22, 2020, 10:09:58 am
Being that it's also a place where the dwarf definitely will go, it's a place to put their favourite animal/vermin on a chain/in a cage, or place a personal temple in.

@muldrake: Your gold door isn't counted for room value, though dwarves do admire it. And yeah, access through hatched staircase would be better.

An excellent bed in 2x2 unsmoothed room would be 4x4-1+5*1*10=65 value. This is still meager. If you included 1 piece of excellent gold furniture though, it'd add 5*30*10=1500 value, jumping it up 4 quality levels to Fine.

If you mark the doors as internal, it can count towards room value, though if you mark both doors connecting a room as internal then expand the rooms would be shared, take a /4 value penalty, and with just 766 total from furniture the room wouldd be quality level lower.
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: Rekov on June 05, 2020, 05:48:14 pm
Do you have any data on the value of constructed rooms? For example, is there a value difference between a room made of constructed boulder walls vs. a room made of constructed block walls of the same material?
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: muldrake on June 20, 2020, 04:26:11 am
Do you have any data on the value of constructed rooms? For example, is there a value difference between a room made of constructed boulder walls vs. a room made of constructed block walls of the same material?

Also, is this better or worse than smoothed and engraved walls of the same substance?
Title: Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 20, 2020, 07:09:08 am
Engraved masterworks walls are clearly more valuable than constructed walls of the same material, so a natural rock wall has a much higher potential than any reasonable constructed wall. I would expect walls constructed from blocks to be more valuable than ones constructed from rocks of the same material.

If you aim for value, smooth natural rock (and cast obsidian to get it if necessary). Things may change in the Premium release if the discussion about allowing constructed walls to be engraved in the graphics thread gets implemented.