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Author Topic: Prison Architect - Version 2.0 Release | It's over! *weeping*  (Read 237395 times)

dennislp3

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #480 on: November 21, 2012, 06:37:24 pm »

Its "expensive" cause it can be...though when main stream big name games that are shallow and shitty go for $60+ on the regular I am not sure how $30 for a full game + early access to alpha/beta stages is exactly expensive.

Plus...as was ninja'd above...the main aim was to make it less available to everyone to avoid bad peer to peer reviews due to alpha state...

Lots of people dont understand that alpha means unfinished these days.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 06:40:36 pm by dennislp3 »
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BigD145

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #481 on: November 21, 2012, 06:37:32 pm »

I like how the game looks, but why is it little expensive for this type of games? Is there something that I am missing?

I can't think of any other Introversion game that sold for less when new.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #482 on: November 21, 2012, 09:04:53 pm »

I like how the game looks, but why is it little expensive for this type of games? Is there something that I am missing?
Little expensive even at the cheapest tier?
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bluejello

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #483 on: November 21, 2012, 10:21:14 pm »

I went for the 40$ tier, due to not owning any of their previous games.  Glad I did.

Can get a prison running fairly smoothly but I did resort to cheating to get more than the initial money+grants+most places workshop.  I need to focus on one building at a time more.
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Mullet Master

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #484 on: November 22, 2012, 01:24:19 am »

Its "expensive" cause it can be...though when main stream big name games that are shallow and shitty go for $60+ on the regular I am not sure how $30 for a full game + early access to alpha/beta stages is exactly expensive.

Plus...as was ninja'd above...the main aim was to make it less available to everyone to avoid bad peer to peer reviews due to alpha state...

Lots of people dont understand that alpha means unfinished these days.

What is the current definition of alpha?  I would argue that the definition of alpha is not absolute.
Ten years ago , alphas were distributed only to PAID playtesters and maybe friends and family of the devs. Betas were meant to be small scale public tests, and often time the beta testing would reside solely in the hands of the paid playtesters. Games were meant to be released finished,considering the limited ability to patch even in the early 2000s, so there was a lot more work "behind the scenes" than what we see today.

So, nowadays, consumers PAY to be alpha testers. Alpha can represent anything from a basic mock up tech demo with mock-up everything to a game that is 98% complete (like minecraft was). Any game released nowadays is unfinished - everything gets at least one or two patches after release. So , if a game 95% done is "finished", that means an alpha can be "finished".

Therefore, I choose to think of an alpha as buying a playable portion of a finished game. I think it should be priced and judged relative to amount of content it has compared to other games - "finished" or "unfinished" in it's niche.
 
$30 is a high price point for this game.

Reasons why :

1) Graphics are placeholder quality. GUI is above average but still needs some work. I really doubt they will improve basic graphics beyond where they are now... they've never really said it's much of a priority, at all. There are thousands of games on google play/itunes for <$5 with much better graphics and polish.
Not to mention a lot , lot more indie games for cheap with fantastic graphics. I specifically have Vessel in my mind when I'm thinking of this.

2)  The first PA demo was displayed at a gaming convention, and the public was allowed to play it. A casual google search reveals the first gameplay video was in Nov 2011... so what the public is seeing now is a game with a year of development. We can consider the 11/11 version to be the true "alpha" - and I am not impressed by differences between what we currently have , and what is released now.

So, in my estimation of this being a game development cycle of 3 years, this should be worth 1/3 of the final value. I put the final value at around $40 maximum, so this "alpha" should be priced at no more than $13.50. I can tell you one thing - with the current amount of well funded games coming out from the kickstarter frenzies of lately, PA will be irrelevant if they can't launch in a timely manner.

3) There are serious holes in the game play experience. Prisoners with no history, no differentiating personalities, and no release date.  Seriously - why hasn't this been prioritized? Why is fog of war more important than this?  That's like playing dwarf fortress without the ability to mine. What happened to getting core gameplay in place and working first?

4) I think Introversion is getting greedy. 99% of people reading this post is just going to dismiss this claim, but if you want to do your own research, you can start here. Keep in mind it's two people, they've earned several hundred thousand dollars so far off their alpha.  http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/31/prison-architect-introversion-console-microsoft-sony/


Once again, I am making my evaluation on this game not for it's potential - which everyone readily admits is unknown - but from my evaluation of where it stands today after ~1 year of development, and a SOLID amount of funding from the community.  I judge it very harshly against other alphas, such as Towns or even Survivors of Ragnarok, which are priced at much more reasonable levels.
 



« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 01:43:00 am by Mullet Master »
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The13thRonin

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #485 on: November 22, 2012, 02:00:25 am »

I love the idea but there's no way that I can justify dropping $30 on an alpha right now :-\.

Usually companies reward people for supporting games in the initial phase with lower prices not higher...
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Scelly9

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #486 on: November 22, 2012, 02:05:30 am »

Usually companies reward people for supporting games in the initial phase with lower prices not higher...
And in return they get bad reviews because of all the bugs in their alpha.
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Neonivek

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #487 on: November 22, 2012, 02:22:19 am »

the definition of Alpha has pretty much disolved Mullet Master

However the rule of thumb is that a Beta is close to the final product where no major changes are hopefully made (there are exceptions) and Alpha is simply any stage where the game is playable.
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The13thRonin

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #488 on: November 22, 2012, 02:27:11 am »

Usually companies reward people for supporting games in the initial phase with lower prices not higher...
And in return they get bad reviews because of all the bugs in their alpha.

I don't see how inflating the price by $20 is going to stop people misunderstanding the state of development. If anything people who shell out $30 are going to be expecting the game to be even more polished and functional than they would if it was a reasonable price. It is an extremely poor justification.
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Scelly9

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #489 on: November 22, 2012, 02:28:26 am »

But people picking it up because it's cheap will be dissuaded, which is the real problem. Besides, as it is I think it's reasonably priced as it is. I've played it for at least 20 hours.
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thegoatgod_pan

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #490 on: November 22, 2012, 02:34:14 am »

I think the price is a bit of a problem. My approach to Indy games is pay little, then end up donating if I really love it. FTL was worth every penny of the ten bucks I paid for it, but I wouldn't pay 50.

 In my (initial) ignorance, I might second guess paying even 10$ Dwarf fortress when I first got it, but now I am the proud owner of three original drawings by Toady, so I've paid more for Dwarf fortress than for Dishonored or Skyrim, which are pretty standard when it comes to big budget studio prices. Indy games cut the packaging and cover art and intro movies, so they can make smaller, easily distributable files, this means they can get massive turn-around. The indy bundles show the way to go; no one has complained about how well Bastion has done for (at most) 9.99 a download. 
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The13thRonin

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #491 on: November 22, 2012, 02:38:19 am »

But people picking it up because it's cheap will be dissuaded, which is the real problem.

You have not addressed my question. I'll ask it again: How does inflating the price by $20 stop people misunderstanding the state of development? Paying more money does not increase peoples ability to understand the development process. Most other crowd-funded games have charged anywhere from $10-20 and been majorly successful. Charging almost full retail price for an alpha of a game is counter-intuitive if you want people to understand your game does not yet have many features and will take time to be fleshed-out. Just because the developers dropped that terrible justification doesn't mean anyone has to swallow it.

Besides, as it is I think it's reasonably priced as it is. I've played it for at least 20 hours.

You are diverting from your original contention that the price is somehow related to people misunderstanding the state of development here, I will however answer this as well. Obviously what is 'reasonable' is subjective but I think we can all agree that if developers expect you to help 'crowd-fund' their game and alpha-test their product (a process which companies used to PAY people to do) based mostly on the faith that they will eventually deliver on their promises they should probably provide a reward or incentive price-wise. Would you pay full price for a car which was shipped to you one piece at a time and occasionally required a part to be sent back because you found it to be faulty?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 03:06:49 am by The13thRonin »
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Knight of Fools

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #492 on: November 22, 2012, 03:26:02 am »

1) Graphics are placeholder quality. GUI is above average but still needs some work. I really doubt they will improve basic graphics beyond where they are now... they've never really said it's much of a priority, at all. There are thousands of games on google play/itunes for <$5 with much better graphics and polish.
Not to mention a lot , lot more indie games for cheap with fantastic graphics. I specifically have Vessel in my mind when I'm thinking of this.

2)  The first PA demo was displayed at a gaming convention, and the public was allowed to play it. A casual google search reveals the first gameplay video was in Nov 2011... so what the public is seeing now is a game with a year of development. We can consider the 11/11 version to be the true "alpha" - and I am not impressed by differences between what we currently have , and what is released now.

So, in my estimation of this being a game development cycle of 3 years, this should be worth 1/3 of the final value. I put the final value at around $40 maximum, so this "alpha" should be priced at no more than $13.50. I can tell you one thing - with the current amount of well funded games coming out from the kickstarter frenzies of lately, PA will be irrelevant if they can't launch in a timely manner.

3) There are serious holes in the game play experience. Prisoners with no history, no differentiating personalities, and no release date.  Seriously - why hasn't this been prioritized? Why is fog of war more important than this?  That's like playing dwarf fortress without the ability to mine. What happened to getting core gameplay in place and working first?

4) I think Introversion is getting greedy. 99% of people reading this post is just going to dismiss this claim, but if you want to do your own research, you can start here. Keep in mind it's two people, they've earned several hundred thousand dollars so far off their alpha.  http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/31/prison-architect-introversion-console-microsoft-sony/

You have brilliantly demonstrated why the Alpha cost was designed around attracting a smaller audience before the final version was released.
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The13thRonin

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #493 on: November 22, 2012, 03:32:35 am »

1) Graphics are placeholder quality. GUI is above average but still needs some work. I really doubt they will improve basic graphics beyond where they are now... they've never really said it's much of a priority, at all. There are thousands of games on google play/itunes for <$5 with much better graphics and polish.
Not to mention a lot , lot more indie games for cheap with fantastic graphics. I specifically have Vessel in my mind when I'm thinking of this.

2)  The first PA demo was displayed at a gaming convention, and the public was allowed to play it. A casual google search reveals the first gameplay video was in Nov 2011... so what the public is seeing now is a game with a year of development. We can consider the 11/11 version to be the true "alpha" - and I am not impressed by differences between what we currently have , and what is released now.

So, in my estimation of this being a game development cycle of 3 years, this should be worth 1/3 of the final value. I put the final value at around $40 maximum, so this "alpha" should be priced at no more than $13.50. I can tell you one thing - with the current amount of well funded games coming out from the kickstarter frenzies of lately, PA will be irrelevant if they can't launch in a timely manner.

3) There are serious holes in the game play experience. Prisoners with no history, no differentiating personalities, and no release date.  Seriously - why hasn't this been prioritized? Why is fog of war more important than this?  That's like playing dwarf fortress without the ability to mine. What happened to getting core gameplay in place and working first?

4) I think Introversion is getting greedy. 99% of people reading this post is just going to dismiss this claim, but if you want to do your own research, you can start here. Keep in mind it's two people, they've earned several hundred thousand dollars so far off their alpha.  http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/31/prison-architect-introversion-console-microsoft-sony/

You have brilliantly demonstrated why the Alpha cost was designed around attracting a smaller audience before the final version was released.

Hey Knight of Fools... I have this great idea for a game... I don't have art assets, gameplay, a story or anything like that yet... I'm in pre-alpha... What I do have is this single blank piece of paper...

Would you like to buy in for $100? I'm keeping the price high so I can attract a smaller audience of people that will understand its not finished yet. Obviously having less avaliable to offer than prison architect I should charge more right?

Broken logic is broken.

I will eventually get it because I like the idea but I still think the pricing is pretty brutal.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 03:51:57 am by The13thRonin »
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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect - Now with 50% more shanking
« Reply #494 on: November 22, 2012, 04:41:10 am »

Don't forget guys : crowdfunding is not about paying to get a game, it's about paying to support developers.

Therefore, there are no right prices, and Knight of Fools' logic is not broken.

@Mullet Master
IV getting greedy? You obviously never read their "blog".
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