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[jecowa]

Why 7 dwarves, a theory:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to Tolkien history, in a time before time Aule created the first 7 dwarfs. They were the first of their kind and all other dwarves are their descendants.

Dwarves are kind of religious. If seven dwarves was good enough for Aule when starting a species, it should also be good enough for them when starting a new settlement.

[Dorsidwarf]

Why 7 dwarves, a theory:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to Tolkien history, in a time before time Aule created the first 7 dwarfs. They were the first of their kind and all other dwarves are their descendants.

Dwarves are kind of religious. If seven dwarves was good enough for Aule when starting a species, it should also be good enough for them when starting a new settlement.

The reason is Snow White

[Random_Dragon]

Why 7 dwarves, a theory:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to Tolkien history, in a time before time Aule created the first 7 dwarfs. They were the first of their kind and all other dwarves are their descendants.

Dwarves are kind of religious. If seven dwarves was good enough for Aule when starting a species, it should also be good enough for them when starting a new settlement.

The reason is Snow White

And other Tolkein references, and for all I know there might be something in Norse mythology vaguely in the vein. :V

[FantasticDorf]

I was cruising around and i just stumbled upon this REALLY old comment.

Point taken,
Now let's get back on topic.
If you enabled an envoy system you could easily contact those tribes with worthy fighters. This way you could send envoys with gifts and tributes, while getting some contracted mercenaries, with demands but prone fighting skills.

Question for toady - If animal people get any more kind of definition in the future law war and diplomacy releases, would you forsee using diplomats or volunteers to establish contact to foster friendly relations with future benefits, given that underground civilisations whilst having no real structure are still recognised as entities (behind the scenes in the program file logs where all the underground types are listed)

The diplomat has successfully delivered your gift of sweetbreads and ale, the tigermen of the hills of mourning are - pleased!
- Diplomatic status change - Open borders (This civilisation will now frequent your locational taverns)

The hostile (large carnivore modifier) lion men of the serene plains greet your diplomat and press that he speaks quickly
- Your dwarf decides to tell a story (with barely any stats, resulting in a pityful droning bore)
- The lion men are unimpressed and commence combat, your diplomat is struck down.
- Diplomatic status change - War

Alternative question

Do you hold any particular thoughts the outpost liasion being re-worked or summarily expanded in the future releases, given that the artifact update will allow dwarves to leave the map with purpose. ((!warning suggestion like content!) as to say you could literally send off a dwarf on a literal death-trip though thousands of miles of terrain to call for help of the dwarven army if your civ cares enough to even send it that far or even cares about your settlement falling in general without relying on a outpost liaison.)

[Rubik]

I was cruising around and i just stumbled upon this REALLY old comment.

Point taken,
Now let's get back on topic.
If you enabled an envoy system you could easily contact those tribes with worthy fighters. This way you could send envoys with gifts and tributes, while getting some contracted mercenaries, with demands but prone fighting skills.

Question for toady - If animal people get any more kind of definition in the future law war and diplomacy releases, would you forsee using diplomats or volunteers to establish contact to foster friendly relations with future benefits, given that underground civilisations whilst having no real structure are still recognised as entities (behind the scenes in the program file logs where all the underground types are listed)

The diplomat has successfully delivered your gift of sweetbreads and ale, the tigermen of the hills of mourning are - pleased!
- Diplomatic status change - Open borders (This civilisation will now frequent your locational taverns)

The hostile (large carnivore modifier) lion men of the serene plains greet your diplomat and press that he speaks quickly
- Your dwarf decides to tell a story (with barely any stats, resulting in a pityful droning bore)
- The lion men are unimpressed and commence combat, your diplomat is struck down.
- Diplomatic status change - War

Alternative question

Do you hold any particular thoughts the outpost liasion being re-worked or summarily expanded in the future releases, given that the artifact update will allow dwarves to leave the map with purpose. ((!warning suggestion like content!) as to say you could literally send off a dwarf on a literal death-trip though thousands of miles of terrain to call for help of the dwarven army if your civ cares enough to even send it that far or even cares about your settlement falling in general without relying on a outpost liaison.)

Generally speaking, everything that involves dwarves taking independent decisions outside a fort is pretty touchy
We'll actually get a taste of that in the next release with NPC adventure parties, but I think we need some several psychology updates to affect behaviour before its reliable
Apart from that, everything I read from your post amuses me deeply, please do a suggestion about it

[Calidovi]

I think that, instead of just sending him out, you should be able to act through your diplomat like you can act through your settlement leader for trade.

Just send them to a location. If they're interrupted, they're interrupted and you need to get your diplomat out of the situation. If they reach the intended destination, you can negotiate, view trade agreements and relations, check on ethical disagreements and artifact/relic conflicts, etc.

This information would go in the 'Civilizations' tab that already exists. The information is updated every time you visit a certain civilization's settlement.

I guess you could get more information with a more skilled envoy, but that seems like a bit much for now.

[FantasticDorf]

I think that, instead of just sending him out, you should be able to act through your diplomat like you can act through your settlement leader for trade.

Just send them to a location. If they're interrupted, they're interrupted and you need to get your diplomat out of the situation. If they reach the intended destination, you can negotiate, view trade agreements and relations, check on ethical disagreements and artifact/relic conflicts, etc.

This information would go in the 'Civilizations' tab that already exists. The information is updated every time you visit a certain civilization's settlement.

I guess you could get more information with a more skilled envoy, but that seems like a bit much for now.

Already verging on suggestion like talk, arguably just letting the dwarf do its own thing with minimal input rather than a possibly stressful/frustratingly annoying mini-game (or atleast have it self resolve without further reason the path is blocked/major interruptions) with just a message in memory or paper is straightforward and what i was driving towards.

The additional touched of more civilization screen options is nice. Also remember that the outpost liason sometimes walks alone through warzones bogeymen and rogue megabeasts to tell you how much the mountainhomes demand cheese literally every year usually without fault (even with cushy holdings and presumably a infinite drink tab in every province bordering 20 tiles of the capital by royal decree)

Generally speaking, everything that involves dwarves taking independent decisions outside a fort is pretty touchy
We'll actually get a taste of that in the next release with NPC adventure parties, but I think we need some several psychology updates to affect behaviour before its reliable
Apart from that, everything I read from your post amuses me deeply, please do a suggestion about it

I did jump the gun a little, but zach and tarn very much look foward, so im just catching their ideas they have stewing while its hot in their minds or atleast warming up forumatively. May or may not reveal any real conclusive answer but that's my approach. Suggestion maybe but if memory serves it's already done and mentioned before in some way or form. Im glad you enjoyed it.

In my own mind every respectable dwarf monarch has a small list carved in somewhere either on their throne room or their trinkets with their favourate alcoholic beverages with the names attached of the provinces that contribute the most of them. To sort out the et prius i would imagine.

Dwarf Refugee - M'lord i have travelled a long way, i bring a dire news that after their sacking of nearby villages the goblins are now at war and besieging my home province. I came as fast as i could.
Dwarf Monarch - Be at ease, those green savages will get what they deserve, what lies within this mighty standard of dwarven civilisation
Dwarf Refugee - Um, a moderately sized dirt fortress ontop of a aquifer, surrounded by evil forests and a small roadside tavern where a 1 armed tuneless bard sings in a duet with a mule, it is also infested with keabirds and nudist cannibal elf cult.
*The dwarf monarch squints for a moment, then leans over his chair to look at a inscription finely carved into their throne by generations of literate scribes because its easier since Ulrist the Illiterate accidentally signed off a mandate for '10 bars of iron made from pigs' during his short reign*
Dwarf Monarch - Its name?
Dwarf Refugee - Treehugger the night of solace
Dwarf Monarch - Dont trawl elf tongue into my court and try my patience, the province, not the mule.
Dwarf Refugee - Joint-Towers
*Joint towers - Excellent quality apple cider - 50 barrels a month is scribbled down,  with a look of shock the dwarf monarch rises out of their seat suddenly*
Dwarf Monarch -Rally! We march on jointowers to defend our race and then celebrate!"

[Calidovi]

I guess what I said can be seen as suggestion talk, but I was hoping for it to be interpreted more as what I think to be an effective implementation of an envoy ability.

[FantasticDorf]

I guess what I said can be seen as suggestion talk, but I was hoping for it to be interpreted more as what I think to be an effective implementation of an envoy ability.

Still a suggestion at the end of the day, topically not about things that are implemented, though i do like it a lot the more i read it personally and it ties into my original question very well.

I guess the tarn brothers would really need some kind of "Urist paperboy" kind of quest dev model in which a dwarf has to throw platinum bars inscribed with messages at their neighbours from the back of a minecart - balance distributing news back and forth in order to manipulate the world into a objective (such as pointing and driving a dwarven army all over the place with possibly a bit of palm greasing by a portly human merchant to send them the wrong way) for some kind of game goal like *this healthbar establishes the defence of the realm, drive the dwarf army towards the goblin army by telling them directions while making as much gold on the side as you can, every town destroyed hurts your lifebar, spending gold fixes towns, deviants and goblins pay more than dwarves for accurate directions*

[tonnot98]

Somewhere down the line, do you think we'll be able to fully-domesticate animals for our civ? Either as an adventurer, or as a fortress.

[Eric Blank]

Somewhere down the line, do you think we'll be able to fully-domesticate animals for our civ? Either as an adventurer, or as a fortress.

Yeah that'll come up again eventually

[Calidovi]

Somewhere down the line, do you think we'll be able to fully-domesticate animals for our civ? Either as an adventurer, or as a fortress.

May want to color that lime green.

[hanni79]

Greets Toady One,

do you have any plans to enable stills and/or kitchens to have detailed work orders, so I can make my dwarves brew/cook specific drinks or meals in the near future ?

This would be really nice

[Dorsidwarf]

Somewhere down the line, do you think we'll be able to fully-domesticate animals for our civ? Either as an adventurer, or as a fortress.

Yeah that'll come up again eventually

I thought this was already possible, it just took decades.

[FantasticDorf]

Somewhere down the line, do you think we'll be able to fully-domesticate animals for our civ? Either as an adventurer, or as a fortress.

Yeah that'll come up again eventually

I thought this was already possible, it just took decades.

Depends what the OP means by 'fully tamed'. Initially yes, by repeatedly neglecting the same group of animals and retraining to a good standard (partially just out of new animal trainer practice or onpurposefully micro-managing it) across atleast minimum of 10 years of intensive training & cool off period for the same group of creatures to forget training (which takes longer the more professional the dwarf, so put a slow learning non appropriate dwarf to task) you can train them to domesticated level. The trade caravan will learn the new progress info each trading season and drive off, raising your total knowledge.

Here's the catch, taming exotic animals is largely useless to giving a civ wide benefit.

Spoiler: "warning heavy talking about the trading & pet system" (click to show/hide)

Phrasing this like a supply and demand response, when traders take items, they dont actually distribute what the give out to your civilisation, the only items that civilisations really account for as 'loot' and store inside specific areas is dropped invader gear and objects that fall on their site map (goblin loincloths etc, frequent the dwarven reclaimed mountain homes as well as dead dwarf gear), because they 'generate' their trade goods from tags (and what you sell them) and they dont sell this loot that they gather and instead auction it off in adventure mode and hoard it (goblins dont even sell the stuff, they just build armory rooms full of military gear and let you take it). I am uncertain if 'gifts' function this way too though i imagine that they do, the nation states don't actually trade with traders at all just game like magically create relevant goods out of tokens that dictate what they can sell with a few hardcoded trades (like animals, though you need the metal preference to allow metal cages to hold them inside)...

Edit - I just literally thought this up needs desperate science but theoretically your best bet is to carry a wooden cage (for weight, your animalmen better be strong) with the animals inside to your nearest trading partner (fortresses, not hillocks, needs a market though hillocks do produce goods think of them as feeding into the larger settlements who push that trade along) and sell them there with the hope that they will accept them as livestock. (disclaimer - which is not guranteed to work but one animal that is HIGHLY likely to work this way is camels since they are a locationally [DOMESTIC] but because dwarves dont typically start out in deserts, are inaccessible, if you do this then try to embark, look for camels on your loadout.)

- Curious note, try releasing the tame domestic animals after you sell them from their cage as a adventurer, see how they react (whether they try to walk back to their site of origin), then retire your game for a moment, hop out and get your population details for that settlement (either by exporting the game data or using a 3rd party tool) to see if the new creatures are now accepted livestock.

> Because resource selection is static based on proximity (underground depth and access, terrain etc), animals are selected normally for embark out of the tags - Horses, yaks and water buffalo for example are in the [WAGON_PULLER] group of animals hence if you removed all other domestics from your entity, they would still be able to embark with that group. Domestic animals dont rely on existing population (given for example you could kill all the recruitment tamed animals that [SCOUT] nation leaders have and they wouldn't have any more, though they possess the knowledge) , so even if everything in the known universe was dead beside your 7 dwarves, you could still summon up some cows ducks and dogs

So basically, you could sell a 1000 wild and a 1000 tame identical beasts at full taming level to normal fortress traders and it'll have no effect because the interaction of getting a creature and putting it inside a settlement population (and being both domestically knowledgeable and literally tame) isn't properly simulated. My suggestion of getting a adventurer to do that might circumnavigate.

- Animals that are tamed by [SCOUT] nation leaders going on expeditions to tame beasts are instantly enrolled into livestock interestingly enough, in human hamlets underground beasts that humans cannot embark with or gain access to the underground typically can manage giant olm butchery pastures for livestock (because hamlets are one of the rare examples where you can see towns produce goods) by forcing taming then pushing a adequate portion of animals into a trade center to be exported out to all the surrounding hillocks (/minor settlements).

With a economy update/rebalance where everything WAS simulated of trade and civilisations divvied up their loose loot stock and supplies then training up and exporting wild beasts might work. As well as buying exotic beasts and beasts that your civilisation has captured outside of tags, at the moment the best you could hope for are exotic pets arriving with migrants rather than in a cage for your fortress dwellers to buy.

I apologize if i've drowned you with words, but i hope this helps inform you a little about the systems that are in place as i have observed them.

Question for Toady (I can't remember if i've said this question already in one form or another, but atleast i get a chance of a updated answer) - Though the economy will be looked at in later releases, do you have any plans to deal with interactions between traders properly simulating trade or giving nation states item exchanges from both of their inventories (dwarf fortresses for example hoard loose goblin supplies from failed/dead attackers during wars that fell on their site, while traders pick up objects from player and non player fortresses) so that in time the 'generation' of objects for trade by tokens can be reduced and eventually commented out for production centres (scenario/mini/hillocks/fortresses etc) and loot as per supply for demand