[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CHITIN:CHITIN_NOYIELD_TEMPLATE]{:CHITIN_TEMPLATE}
[SKILL_LEARN_RATE:GRASP_STRIKE:150]{+}
[SKILL_LEARN_RATE:BITE:150]{+}
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:RENAME_LEATHER_TO:FUR]{+ Revision: the leather is still furry after tanning.}
[CHILD:12]{:1 Revision: 1 is too young.}
[MEANDERER][NATURAL]{BENIGN}
[BODY:PEARL]{+ Revision: added pearls to fix bug 4108.}
[BP:PEARL:pearl:STP][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][SMALL][INTERNAL][CATEGORY:PEARL]
[DEFAULT_RELSIZE:20]
[VERMIN_BUTCHER_ITEM]
Sounds interesting, but .zip file only contains readme file.
nail scratch attacks have been removed entirely. Combatants without talons or claws scratching each other to death is silly. (Grimlocke)
bite attacks have been removed from most humanoids, with the exception of bird people, cat people, canine people, and a few bug people. Biting your opponent as a humanoid is silly. (Taffer)
I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's not silly, it's a desperate combat situation. Wrestling, being cornered, arms/legs are injured, they have more use than someone faffing around biting people.
Taffer you are a gentleman and a scholar. This is right along the lines of what I do myself, many thanks! :D
I'm not sure if you're aware, or maybe it is just me, but I can't seem to target an individual for conversation [k]. So went to vanilla DF to double check and it works fine. All I get in this mod is the option to "begin performance", "shout out to everybody", and the deity option.
Goblins are already playable in vanilla, that's not a feature of this mod.
Well, you can't build forts as Goblins in vinilla, but they have everything you need to play as them. All that's missing is the tag that allows you to build sites as that race.Goblins are already playable in vanilla, that's not a feature of this mod.
Thank you kindly for the correction!
I was pointing out a mistake in the op about adventurer. Fixed now. Great mod by the way!Well, you can't build forts as Goblins in vinilla, but they have everything you need to play as them. All that's missing is the tag that allows you to build sites as that race.Goblins are already playable in vanilla, that's not a feature of this mod.
Thank you kindly for the correction!
I integrated, tested, and improved Wanderer's tiered and standardized leather and standardized wool. Reverting it again was painful.
Some of these names aren't just to differentiate from other creature types but to put the image of a real world creature into the mind of the player. So, maybe put a "also known as" in the description or something.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some of these names aren't just to differentiate from other creature types but to put the image of a real world creature into the mind of the player. So, maybe put a "also known as" in the description or something.
Also, spotted wobbegong => wobbegong
Edit:
two-legged rhino lizard => rhino lizard
white-spotted puffer => puffer
sea nettle jellyfish => sea nettle OR jellyfish
banded knifefish => knifefish
sailfin molly => sailfin OR molly
Maybe:
common snapping turtle => snapping turtle
alligator snapping turtle => alligator turtle
I'm not sure how many people are interested in my work here, but I'm at a crossroads in regards to integrating Accelerated. I thought I'd make a little post about my current plans and what I'm not sure about.
So the next version will have simplified creature names. The list of creatures is in the spoiler below. I've also added back (and fixed up) the Modest Mod's MAXAGE changes: giant creatures (and a handful of normal creatures) live longer, making them more convenient (and in some cases, possible) to train and use. I've also fixed up some things, made Hydras lay eggs, and made giant wolverines and giant bobcats trainable again.
I'm also thinking of adding in Grimlocke's collarbones, letting me have all armor protect necks. Perhaps I can look into adding SHAPED to most armor, preventing the kind of armor layering silliness I see on the wiki and in some guides.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can't in good conscious pretend this is a "minimal mod compilation" anymore, so such references have been purged from the descriptions.
I'm tempted to change my mind about the "Accelerated" module: I'm considering integrating it completely, standardizing materials and adding in Wanderer's tiered leather. As mentioned, reverting this last time was painful: returning to a "non-standardized" materials version of this mod would be even more painful, and I'm not interested in maintaining two branches. I'd miss some of the variety, but having leather tiers might be worth it and shorter lists to scroll through might be worth it. I integrated, tested, and improved Wanderer's tiered and standardized leather and standardized wool. Reverting it again was painful.
Merging changes in about 6 files. Working on that, though you might be able to just throw my mod on top of Revision, add Revision's reaction entity tags and get most features of both mods.
I have rendered my own post redundant by finishing up the Revision compatibility patch! Its included in the main download.
@Taffer Those comments added to vanilla file modifications were pretty helpful, saved me from having to use a diff program. For the creature_standard file, I have replaced all the locally defined attacks with references to the identical creature variation entries. Makes balancing them a lot less tedious.
I'm fine with that as long as there special ones can still be made like featherwood, dragon leather etc. I liked the leather change in modest mode made it worthwhile for larger creatures though you removed it because it was a pain to do and a bit imbalanced would like that returned in the case of elephants and dragons creatures of that size if it's not too much.
The armor one is a good idea and rather simple to do.
With the Tiered system how much would beasts like elephants, hydras and dragons give more in leather?
How many tiers are there and does it have quality and quantity?
What else will Accelerated remove in terms of redundant excess will gems, ores and fat?
Are there plans to change how growing works for above ground and below ground crops?
Would be good if tiered system did both of that knowing that you could hunt some small but valuable for good quality leather.
I wouldn't mind gems being brought down to a tier system as well, as for metals limonite is an iron ore that could be removed though not sure what this would have an effect on in world generation of resources.
The whole lack of seasons while underground doesn't make too much sense for why they're grown like that, though I'm not sure if you want to go that far to change it but if you do it would be worthwhile making the above ground crops have a season while changing below ground to grow slower but can be all year. Though plump helmets and dimple cups should be largely unchanged.
Not getting any seeds back from having plump helmets cookedand not getting fat from butchering animalswhat might be wrong?
edit: Never mind the fat part Kitchen might have just used it.
I f-cking miss Dwarf Chocolate.
So hard to find a mod that doesn't throw in 10 really weird ideas that break the game or kill the flavor. Taffer's compilation mod ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161832.0 ) is filled with great ideas, but then it has other shit that bugs me to no end like renaming "upper body" to "chest" so that have to read nonsensical sentences about punching people in the chest from behind, or changing the title of "Great White Shark" to "White Shark" as a means of simplifying the text output.
Is there a single almost-vanilla mod updated for 43.05? I hate to talk shit because what these modders do is so far beyond what I could accomplish in any reasonable amount of time, but why does it always go so f-cking dumb and autistic with the needless tweaks?
Apologies to Taffer, best tileset artist there ever was.
I hate to talk shit
The only thing which has been remotely weird is some dwarf's pet bird (I think a guineafowl) is underground scratching up worms, but the area it's in is dry rock, rather than soil or muddied rock, which doesn't seem like a worm-friendly environ. But that has absolutely no impact on gameplay, and honestly it's kinda awesome to watch a bird scratching up worms to begin with. :D
Many thanks again!
~ McT
Het Taffer, buddy its been awhile since I talked with you, anyways I was reviewing mods (actually I was looking for a good current version of modest milling, but that's a side note). I noticed you are still advertising expanded dictionary... I've canceled that project all the way around... Its just not something I'm willing to continue to try and make into a viable product. If you still have the files for it, you're welcome to continue updating it, but I don't plan to return to the project.
anyways It doesn't look like you have the modest mass mill stuff in your raws... I was hoping to find one with all the plants fixed so I wont need to manually fix them in the current version of MDF... I guess I'm headed to the notepad++...
no problem... I'm writing a lua script to do this edit... since it propagates across multiple files(all the graphic folder in MDF...grrr...) .
I posted to thank you for the mod, only to release I thanked you when you first made this mod :o :o :o
None the less, keep up the good work Taffer! :P :P
I'm rethinking my new elven weapons.
So I'm not sure how it's supposed to work, I order a full set of clothing and the token gets made. Then the token just sits there and no one ever uses it?
Ran into an odd issue with a lip getting crushed (helmet did nothing) and the dwarf instantly died as if his lip were his brain. Game crashed a month or so later, so I don't have a screenshot or save.
I've been loudly working on a huge creature description update for an embarrassingly long time, but people following this mod might not know what I'm up to since most of the posts are buried in the Modest Mod thread. I thought I'd explain, then shut up about it until I'm done. I'm determined to finally finish it soon so I can complete the next release and then work on my first module.Sounds like a great idea, though I'd like to point out that the wiki says giant moon snails are about the size of llamas, not grizzly bears.
This example uses giant moon snails.
Original:
[DESCRIPTION:A huge monster in the shape of a moon snail.]
Revised:
[DESCRIPTION:A huge, brightly-colored, predatory mollusc the size of a grizzly bear. It makes undulating movements with its bloated, mucus-covered body, effortlessly carrying a great shell. It bores holes into its prey then eats the flesh with a long proboscis.]
It also standardizes how creatures are described and indicates the rough size of giant creatures in the description. Animal people descriptions have been gendered and also have appropriate size-descriptors in the same vein as the default humanoid descriptors (medium-sized, small, tiny, etc. Little things that you'd previously have to pay close attention to are now made more obvious, like how winged animal people have arms separate from (not attached to) their wings, how bark scorpion people have large pincers coming out of their shoulders, and how many (hopefully all) animal people with multiple arms now have the number of arms indicated in their description.
It all makes (in my opinion) a dramatic and positive difference in how I play, simply because I'm always reading the description of things and I'm (usually) slightly disappointed. Not everything will be wonderful, but the hope is that it'll at least be a solid improvement.
Sounds like a great idea, though I'd like to point out that the wiki says giant moon snails are about the size of llamas, not grizzly bears.
EDIT: would this work instead? It implies that 201K is somewhat larger than dwarves, but doesn't make it obvious that the sizes are almost all identical. I'm liking this approach, so I'll probably go ahead with it if I get no objections and I can't think of anything better. Thank you for getting me thinking about this, bloop_bleep!
[DESCRIPTION:A huge, brightly-colored, predatory mollusc larger than most humanoids. It makes undulating movements with its bloated, mucus-covered body, effortlessly carrying a great shell. It bores holes into its prey then eats the flesh with a long proboscis.]
So I'm not sure how it's supposed to work, I order a full set of clothing and the token gets made. Then the token just sits there and no one ever uses it?
Thank you kindly for the bug report! I can confirm this: my bad. You can complete the reaction for now by going into the "automated reactions" menu and requesting the second part of the reaction yourself. It's rather embarrassing that I hadn't noticed this before. I'll fix this up right away, and it'll be done for the next release! My repository is currently in such a state that doing a minor release is annoying, so I'll have to wait until my next update is finished.
I'm reconsidering some (or all) of Microreduce, just because the reactions don't seem to quite fit in: I'll see about improving that or removing the mod. I admit that reactions aren't my forte.
If you notice anything else or have any suggestions, kindly let me know!
EDIT: This reaction...somehow...removes the ability to make shirts outside of the new "outfit" reaction, and I don't know why. I've just torn the reaction out of my mod entirely, and I'll be carefully reviewing and testing the rest of Microreduce to either integrate the remaining reactions better or remove them.
Is this bugged reaction included in the latest release?
Is this bugged reaction included in the latest release?
seems you finished the reptiles in the repo. I'm looking forward for your release 1.4!
Also I like the comments a lot. As I always end up modifying such mods a bit to my taste such a documented collection of changes is quite helpful. Especially after coming back again to DF ;)
Keep it up!
Looks like this is compatible with 44.02 along with Grimlocke's mod.
Link (http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13270)
I've updated the mod to DF 0.44.02, since Taffer seemed a bit occupied with other things.
All the new tags and tokens were added, and scout tag was removed from kobolds as per file changes.
How would you make the seeds evaporate? Fixed temperature?
I like the mix of features of the mod a lot.
Any plans to add vocalizations to animals in the future? I love that aspect of the game a lot, makes adventure mode much more immersive, yet the feature did not make it into the main DF, likely mostly because Toady focuses on other stuff.
Im using this with 43.05r, I am noticing the different descriptions in battle (forearm, instead of lower arm etc.), but I still have hundreds of different types of leather. I thought this mod reduced items, or am I wrong? Im trying to help an old lap top acheive decent frames. Thanks for you help.
Was reading about pigs and found out that they (along with honey badgers, mongooses, and hedgehogs) are immune to king cobra venom. Thought that would be a good little fix and would fit in this mod.
Goblins are already playable in vanilla, that's not a feature of this mod.
Thank you kindly for the correction!
opening up the caverns and hell (which never made sense to me they were always open just invisible, suddenly they are a problem when you make them visible),
The final batch of completely unfinished descriptions is going much faster than it normally would, thanks to the contributions I got for them already. My final round of editing and polishing is going quickly as well. ETA for it all is by the end of the month, I estimate (and that's a pretty conservative estimate, I edited/polished the descriptions of 4 files this weekend alone)
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.
This is only partial true (at least to my knowledge). Goblins are only playable if they have integrated into non-goblin civs (generally short history worlds have goblins unplayable).
Wasn't Toady going for the whole snake flying dragon and just left out the wings for dragons because flying was silly?
Do you think this mod would work with other mods? Specifically ones that add new creatures, civs, etc.
I really love the attention to detail this has on improving vanilla. And iv always agreed that bite attacks from humanoids were silly and agree with most of your other flavor changes.
Iv been using your tileset since I started playing DF, so thanks for that too! Its consistently the most faithful to ASCII and nice looking. Feels right.
Goblins are already playable in vanilla, that's not a feature of this mod.
Thank you kindly for the correction!
This is only partial true (at least to my knowledge). Goblins are only playable if they have integrated into non-goblin civs (generally short history worlds have goblins unplayable).opening up the caverns and hell (which never made sense to me they were always open just invisible, suddenly they are a problem when you make them visible),
Amostubal, this is likely because that is now a valid area for dwarves to path, whereas it was previously treated just like a layer filled with stone.
So I ran into the hake fish's description while working my way through creature_small_ocean, one of the last files on my list for the description update.
An oceanic fish.
Sorry, Toady, but this one is particularly bad. This is about as bad as the eagle's description.
A small bird of prey.
Just a point of amusement, as it humors me and reminds me why I'm working on this.
Now just to wait for Grimlocke's mod to be updated, how different is this release from 1.3.1?
I've been watching for this one for a while now. Great job!
Quick question: Do the descriptor revisions include upgrades to color? I've been doing an improvement pass on various bug/slug men and the first thing I fixed was "His chitin is black. His eyes are black." being the only color available for damn near everything.
This mod needs to be in vanilla DF. Well done.
Used Winmerge for a bit and just ended up replacing the creature files. Don't know if the skill changes take effect on existing animals or new ones that enter the map. Wonder if the caste names will be fine as well on existing saves.
Ok, I ended up with a bizarre world - and I think it's a bug that has to do with raws.
One of my sub-civs which I ported over is Desert Dwarves; they have Jackals instead of dogs, among other things. However, in this particular world, there were Humans instead of Dwarves, Jackal Men instead of jackals, and - as an additional curiosity - Giant Leeches instead of my altered Leech Men.
I did some experimenting, and after removing Giant Leeches and finding my worlds generating Axlotl fortresses instead, I found the culprit; If a creature is deemed invalid when selecting for a civ, it selects the next one down the list. Hence, Dwarf-> Human, Jackal->Jackalman, Leech Man -> Giant Leech.
I'm attempting to comb through and see what the issue is for the Leech Men, to start - changing their file path did nothing, and moving them to a different file caused worlds not to generate. Very puzzling.
Thank you for the report. I'll devote some time to fixing up Revised today. I definitely need to play test more before expanding on Revised.
Could this have something to do with your own modding? You mention porting over a sub-civ.
EDIT: I can't reproduce this.
The only thing I altered in the Dwarf raws was the CASTETILE for female dwarves. Literally nothing else was changed. That's why I thought it pertinent to mention to you, since otherwise there's nothing that would affect them.
Genning more worlds over and over, I found that the Humans replaced Dwarves in the "normal" Dwarf civ also. Thankfully, there were no cat or dog-men.
I remember reading somewhere that scratch attacks are so powerful because the game uses the entire finger to scratch. Perhaps you should an untargetable "nail" body part that connects to fingers and change the scratch attacks to use that instead?
Feels like unarmed nerf and skulls buff are a bit too much. Situations when dwarfs were kicking big unconscious animals for weeks with no effect are now even worse.
forgotten beasts made of stone, wood, and metal can be butchered. (Modest))
COMBAT IMPROVEMENTS
Does butchering a wood and metal forgotten beasts produce logs and ores?
Do these combat changes make the game easier or harder?
elves siege and wield betterand more sensiblewooden weapons. (Coherent Weapons)
long swords aren't easily used one-handed, but they slash better. (Coherent Weapons)
large spiders and spider people that couldn't trap with their web now can. (Modest)
scratch attacks without claws or talons have been removed. (Grimlocke, Revised)
many animals and humanoids aren't as flighty. Predators are fearless. (Wanderer)
scimitars are big and powerful, with a wide contact area. (Coherent Weapons)
bows and crossbows are weaker and differ from each other more. (Wanderer)
bone doesn't feel pain, and fat and muscle feel less pain. (Wanderer, Modest)
whips have been weakened and cost more to create. (Coherent Weapons)
short swords and spears have smaller contact areas. (Coherent Weapons)
long swords can now be gripped partly by the blade. (Coherent Weapons)
some insects have more accurate and more varied colors. (Warlord255)
giant predators eat dwarves, and many ambush prey. (Modest)
renamed body parts for more legible combat logs. (Modest)
skulls are sturdier and skin is thicker. (Wanderer, Grimlocke)
short swords penetrate more. (Coherent Weapons)
many tissues now heal naturally. (Modest)
many giant creatures can bite. (Modest)
most humanoids won't bite. (Revised)
This is a seriously impressive endeavour! The fixes and improvements are very useful, but I actually find it hard to play without your descriptions now. Where once my eyes would skip over creature descriptions, I now go out of my way to inspect new arrivals!
(checking and testing the harder farming mod is also on my todo list)That's something I'd really like to see. There is way too much food just lying around, and running "deteriorate food" all the time causes a lot of job cancellations that annoy me. And it's not healthy for my fortresses to have me annoyed. Not healthy at all.
Just wanted to chime in and say that I too have been enjoying the new descriptions a lot. Also, I've been silently playing Revised for almost 2 years now, and I figured I'd finally make an account and say "thank you". So, thank you, Taffer.
That's something I'd really like to see. There is way too much food just lying around, and running "deteriorate food" all the time causes a lot of job cancellations that annoy me. And it's not healthy for my fortresses to have me annoyed. Not healthy at all.
[TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
[TISSUE_NAME:skin:NP]
[SCARS]
[TISSUE_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SKIN]
[RELATIVE_THICKNESS:2] Revision: made skin thicker.
Lower is faster.
[HEALING_RATE:100]
[VASCULAR:1]
[RELATIVE_THICKNESS:2] Revision: made skin thicker.
I started merging revised into the tileset launcher pack. So far I have to say I'm really impressed. Sensible changes, everything documented inside the files themselves, and a lot more intricate changes than I expected.
Only bug, if you want to call it that, that I've seen so far is in tissue_template_default, the first entry has a duplicate line:
...
You added the thickness change twice, but it has literally no negative effect. I'll post more if I find something.
Edit: Just saw the item_weapon changes.
The material change to whips has no effect on gameplay, since the player never makes whips, and goblins are not playable.
The elven clubs/giant clubs seem thematically a bit... unfitting to slender elves. Might I suggest batons, quarter-staffs or the like? Still a blunt wooden weapon, but not quite as low-tech.
Edit2: Suggestion: Your new creature descriptions are fairly colorful, but ultimately do not help the player get more information about the creature. What about adding facts from the raws? Creature size, clutch size, max age and the like. Anything that would be of interest to the player. An example:
Vanilla: [DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized beast, known for its tusks and powerful build.]
Revised: [DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized beast with large tusks, short legs, and a stocky body. It has strong neck muscles to dig for food, and uses its snout as a plow.] Revision: rewrote description.
Revised v2: [DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized beast with large tusks, short legs, and a stocky body. It has strong neck muscles to dig for food, and uses its snout as a plow. A benign meanderer, it appears in groups of 5 to 10 individuals. It lives to be up to 20 years old, weighting up to 80kg. It's an exotic pet if you can tame it and valued with 100 urists on the market. Beware its tusk attack.] Revision: rewrote description.
clubs
clubsThere are different kinds of clubs, though. Something like this, for example, looks slim and elvish enough and is still called a club:
Well, there are only around 600 creatures or so. :P
I'll do some more work today, I'll let you know if I spot anything else.
If you don't mind, I might write a few longer descriptions myself afterwards, which you might or might not use, as you like.
Edit: Saw the "[SIEGER] Revision: elves will now siege.". Is it possible that you misunderstood that tag? It changes the siege AI, with the sieger-tag the invading elven armies will make camps and starts camp-fires and wait outside for months and months... instead of pathing straight in or leaving, if that's not possible. They will not act like a goblin siege, but like a human siege. Together with the ambush tag, that makes elven sieges pretty hard to deal with, because their army is both invisible at first AND camping outside.
Edit2: You do simplify the black mamba to just mamba... why exactly? To quote Wikipedia: "Four extant species are recognised currently; three of those four species are essentially arboreal and green in colour, whereas the so-called black mamba..." People wouldn't know if the mamba is a black mamba or another mamba.
Edit3: Same for king cobra to cobra.
Edit4: Same for buffalo and water buffalo... as someone who rode through Africa and had to hide from damn cape buffalos, while petting tame water buffalos in India, I'd say the distinction is quite important. :P
Edit5: Thrips... It says "[CREATURE:THRIPS][DESCRIPTION:A tiny pest insect. It feeds on both crops and other bugs.] Revision: rewrote description." But the description is exactly the same as in vanilla DF.
Edit6: Giant Moon Snail have [MOUNT_EXOTIC] in vanilla, in your file versions they do not. No note about removing it though. On other snails/slugs you removed it, with a note saying that they are too slow to be used sensibly as mounts. Guess the same should be true for moon snails.
There are different kinds of clubs, though. Something like this, for example, looks slim and elvish enough and is still called a club:
...
Also, quarterstaves seem a bit pointless. The elves already have what is essentially a wooden quartertaff with a (slightly) pointy end. Alternatives like Fijian "totokias",
...
Irish "shillelaghs"
...
and "African" knobkerries
...
are relatively long and bashy, but their names are way too exotic for an average user like me to recognize. Therefore, I suggest the laziest solution possible: renaming the clubs into "elven war clubs" and letting the player use his imagination.
I'm hesitant about the MISCHIEVOUS tag resulting in raccoons and snakes pulling your fortress levers, so some testing is in order.I can definitely see raccoons being raccoons and pulling levers just because. Not sure about the snakes, although I like the idea of "A (snake)! Drive it away!" messages.
That's good to hear! I'm a big fan of the leather change ;)
If you're slightly increasing the scope of allowed deviations from vanilla, I'd suggest doing something about underground animal tribes. I understand they are not supposed to be strong, but the poor guys are constantly getting wiped out by troglodites and crundles every time I see them. Maybe some kind of "thick bone" armor would help, since there are a lot of stuff in the caves that might have those kind of bones. Or simply give them better poisons and better innate skills.
...
I can definitely see raccoons being raccoons and pulling levers just because. Not sure about the snakes, although I like the idea of "A (snake)! Drive it away!" messages.
GOBBLE_VERMIN_CLASS:MAMMAL only targets vermin; it never results in "large" creatures engaging each other more than they usually would, which is disappointingly rare in my opinion. If you were super paranoid, you could replace CLASS:MAMMAL with CLASS:EDIBLE_VERMIN_MAMMAL or something.
On the MISCHIEVOUS snake thing, in my experience the little bastards never get far enough into your fort to pull any levers unless said levers are literally on your front doorstep, so the "drive it away!" message is the primary effect. In fact, I've never seen Gremlins get far enough to do anything, either... maybe they should gain NATURAL_SKILL:STEALTH:15 to have a higher success rate.
Either way, I'm just happy to help! :)
Thanks! Sadly, the driftwood mod seems to be having some problems - chief among them, BEACH _FREQUENCY isn't working.
On the Bonfire front, however, you may find it's been updated... :D
If you like, dislike, or have input on (DF Accellerated/simplification), you have some time to let me know.I've used Modest Mod before Revised, but I never noticed a huge performance boost from Accelerated submodule, and I like my *giant bat leather pants*. I like them a lot. Would it be too much of a hassle to maintain the simplification as "extra", like the wooly dwarves are right now?
interested in possibly merging almost identical creatures into one, but with different castesWould it have any impact on taming and breeding?
Well, I personnally used Masterwork with many additions disabled to benefit from the accelerated features for years (I think?). So of course I would be happy. I'm still twitching when I prepare my embark and open the meat or wood pages... :P I feel your vision for Revised is exactly what I am looking for in a DF mod.
I've used Modest Mod before Revised, but I never noticed a huge performance boost from Accelerated submodule, and I like my *giant bat leather pants*. I like them a lot. Would it be too much of a hassle to maintain the simplification as "extra", like the wooly dwarves are right now?
Would it have any impact on taming and breeding?
I'm already pretty sold on tiered leather, so apologies.Don't worry about it. It's a sensible change from a gameplay perspective, and I can always mod leather back myself.
What do you think about fewer gems?Kind of nice, because encrusting could be a pain. I mean, it'd still be a pain to make a dwarf encrust what you want instead of a random piece of furniture, it'll just be slightly less of a pain, because it will indirectly lead to less job cancellations.
A few less stone types?The main thing to consider with a non-economic stone as it stands right now is its color and maybe - if you're really min-maxing - it's value. So until Toady goes through with the geology rework, I don't see any harm in cutting down the stone types.
If you had a giant red squirrel male and a giant gray squirrel female, they could breed and have a child of a random type. The downside, of course, is that if both parents were red squirrels, there'd be a chance that the offspring would be a "gray squirrel".Interesting. It would make sense, I think: you trade some edge-case variety for gameplay convenience.
Don't worry about it. It's a sensible change from a gameplay perspective, and I can always mod leather back myself.
It's going to be an epic battle, though: me wanting to make batdwarves vs me being a lazy ass.
By the way, I don't remember, but do giant ticks breed in revised? It's initially was one of the reasons I went for modest mod: I had a fortress, and the only wildlife around consisted of giant ticks. So, of course, I ended up throwing them around at everything, but they couldn't breed properly, which limited my ammo. I just have been thinking about picking up Warlord's bugmen and giving the insectopults another shot. It would be even better to shot giant ticks into tickmen.
FWIW, Taffer, I've been thinking of taking a crack at other animalmen, so I may be able to save you some work. I wanted to add Crab Men to the Better Bugmen mod, but as far as I can tell spawning civs in ocean biomes doesn't make beach towns like it ought to.I'd absolutely love an animal people special abilities pack -- something interesting for every animal person race. :D
The biggest issue is that there's only a few non-magical avenues to spice up animalmen; venoms, interactions, and NATURAL_SKILL, plus things like AMPHIBIOUS. I'm ambivalent about [FLIER] because it's so absurdly broken, and I can't find any way to cleanly implement temporary flight without a lot of work involving transformations, and multiplying that work across tons of birdmen is likely to be a right pain. It also appears to be impossible to make herbivores, except perhaps with a meat nausea syndrome affecting CREATURE_CLASS:HERBIVORE. It may be more valuable to excise the coolest animalmen and promote them to civ status, possibly even making lots of non-hostile/non-trading types that you can provoke through raiding if you want.
If I do a second pack, it'll probably be reptiles - there's a lot to work with there. Alligator/Anaconda men with NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING, Snake Man venoms, Chameleon stealth, Axlotl/frog regeneration... we'll see where that goes.
Hey person behind this awesome pack, please don't do possibly irreparable harm to your pack by transforming the leathers manually. as you pointed out, the changes would be invasive and it would be a nightmare to maintain by hand.
so please ponder and post a before/after example and let someone else come up with a text-processing script that can make a simplified version from a 'hinted' full version. you've done some great work, don't ruin it!
with a little extra markup to what you have, you may only need a short make/awk script to prune and transform this gem! ... see if you can write up/pull-out simple examples for all the before/after places and post it here so people can see what kind of magic you need for this!
Is there any particular reason tiered leather requires simplified leather? RotMK uses various material templates to have tiered leather without reducing variety.
Well, I should warn you: the leather changes are invasive, and not trivial to change back.Knowing myself, I'll probably end up renaming one of the tiers into "giant bat" and calling it a day.
Partly because I like simplified leather, and partly because "giant bat leather pants" is already a mouthful. "Giant bat tough leather pants" is worse. I'm exhausted and a little burned out at the moment, so I might try to get a bugfixing release out in the next week and just work on descriptions or something less controversial for a bit.Here, let me lend you a hand.
Heyo, been updating my personal mod from 43.xx to the latest release and swapping over to this from Modest Mod as a base. I already submitted one merge request after finding a missing tag and spelling error so far, but just wanted to post here in case I'm not submitting them correctly or something since I'm not used to using git. I'll submit more merges if I catch any other minor errors. Really love all the new creature descriptions. I'm reworking my Prefstring additions to fit your descriptions better atm, and will post them when I'm finished if you're interested. I'm only about a third of the way through doing research on each creature though :P
Thanks for your work and everything!
Please let me know if you do still play with Revised after I integrate it.
it didn't help that i could not make soap from tallow in your mod until i cheated i a bar.
Install into a v0.44.09 installation. If you have a saved world, delete it.
I know it's stated in the first post as follows:
...
But just to be crystal clear, if I have a world that hasn't been modded at all, can I install it & run the world without restarting?
That's a shame. Thanks for the heads-up!
So I assume (probably bleeding obvious) if I want to use your soon to be updated Revised then I am best to wait till that release as it will totally mess things up if I install it later and use it on an already generated world? I really like this mod because it doesn't dramatically change the vanilla DF experience, just makes it better.
I never actually play DF as I am always waiting for Toady's next release or an update to something like this. ;)
On a vaguely related note, do you think you are on track to get a new release out in the next day or so? Sounds like you have some great stuff lined up. Sorry to nag, it just shows how much your work is valued. :)
Thank you for keeping up the good work!
I used 1.3.1 of Revised and was about to automatically merge 1.5.1 with the raws of Phoebus tileset.
And there is exactly one tiny error in line 3298 of creature_temperate_new.txt, a misplaced "]" tag at the start of the line, and another "]" at the end of the line.
(https://gitlab.com/spiral-king/df-revised/blob/master/raw/objects/creature_temperate_new.txt#L3298)
Since I don't have a gitlab account I hope it is okay to report it here.
Cheers!
Hey Taffer, I love the work that you've done here. I'm working on a sort of personal modded project, a for-fun overhaul I've always wanted to do but put off time and again. It's public on github though, and if it ends up the way I want may even get a formal release so I'd like to ask your permission to include your Revised edits with it. There's not much to it yet, but a link is here: https://github.com/Aelforth/Keepsake_DF/wiki
None of that is finalized, but should convey the gist of it. Thanks again for the work, it's been fun playing in fort mode with it installed.
Well, this is a goal I can get behind. I've been doing something similar for a good while myself. I wanna help!
I cobbled myself a gitlab account and I've already put up fixes to a few silly bugs I ran into, so you'll know that's me.
Does Revised allow the crafting of all the things that could be crafted when using the DF Wanderer mod in Adventure Moe?
Incredibly tiny bug: Elf spear-throwers list their ammo as THROWING_SPEAR, but the throwing spears are listed as CLASS:THROWING_SPEARS, so they can't actually fire the spears. Super easy fix, obviously.
have special "elf only" arrowsThey already have their hardened wood, might as well use it for projectiles too.
If anybody has an idea here, let me know.Is it possible to make the elves use poison? Poisoned arrows, or poisoned blowdart thingies would fit well with the overall theme, I think.
They already have their hardened wood, might as well use it for projectiles too.
...
Is it possible to make the elves use poison? Poisoned arrows, or poisoned blowdart thingies would fit well with the overall theme, I think.
...
And you can also make them throw bees. BEES!
You can give them unique bows with a higher force, or arrows that have a smaller contact area. That still means that bow-skill and relatively normal arrows would be used; without alienating the players.
Another alternative would be to give them harder wood. MasterworkDF has ironbark trees for example; you can take a guess at what material that is equivalent to. ;)
[NATURAL_SKILL:AXE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:SWORD:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:MACE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:HAMMER:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:SPEAR:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:CROSSBOW:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:SHIELD:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:ARMOR:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:PIKE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:WHIP:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:BOW:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:BLOWGUN:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELF
[NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:0]YESHARDERINVADER_ELFThe problem with their bows is that their wooden arrows are terrible. Perhaps crossbows are a better idea, and leave bows to the goblins. Or have special "elf only" arrows. If anybody has an idea here, let me know.
My mod uses "elf only" arrows (alongside the atlatls, just for the variety), which seem to work fine when made of wood. The most important part is the arrows contact area - an area of '1' is a real killer no matter what the material is.
What was the duplicate reaction? Was it something in 1.6.1 or added in 1.6.2 which I didn't grab yet?
Also, Taffer, would you be okay with me using Revised as a base for a mod I'm working on? (with credit, of course) I really like your changes and would likely duplicate a lot of them (like the unarmed combat changes) so it'd be faster if I just started from Revised and built on top of it.
Well, I wish you luck on progress with the mod and in trying to make combat somewhat more balanced, because that is going to be a doozy.
Does this work with lazy newb pack? or does it screw around with something if I add it.
Does this work with lazy newb pack? or does it screw around with something if I add it.
Not sure if this is something that can be done, or if you want to do in the first place, but would it be possible to add more possible actions that can appear on objects? I mean stuff like "X is labouring" or "X is smeared out into a spiral". The default list is kinda limited and is dominated by rather... nasty actions. It'd be nice to have some more positive/neutral actions on there, for instance "X is gleaming" or "X appears overjoyed" and such.
A small suggestion regarding the removal of amphibious mounts: maybe make them all war trainable instead? I mean, the bug fix is perfectly reasonable, but I feel like there is a chunk of fun missing from the fact that certain water-crossing creatures won't appear in sieges anymore.
Iv had success merging this with other mods that dont alter vanilla much. Its a fantastic experiance so far. The richer descriptions make things better than i thought they would. Cant wait until the better merge with svers is done. i tried doing that myself but it came out eh.
Iv had success merging this with other mods that dont alter vanilla much. Its a fantastic experiance so far. The richer descriptions make things better than i thought they would. Cant wait until the better merge with svers is done. i tried doing that myself but it came out eh.
I downloaded before may 23rd when you posted you had not integrated at all and I hadnt seen an update since then on the thread. So i just unzipped svers onto your mod. It meant it overwrote some files so I just pasted what looked obvious back into it. I meant I was just waiting until the actual merge so I dont lose any features when I put them together. If you arent ever going to fully merge them so its compatible even with the new items, then I apologize for the confusion. I guess I can actually winmerge them every time. thats what I meant by ehhh- i hate doing that for mods(but i will anyway when i love the mods) and I did it really low effort visual scan for this time...
ok sorry. im not a mod expert. i just pasted files over, skimmed through them and pasted some more things. i dont even remember which files i put in first. and in addition another persons mods. its not anywhere obvious to me that its already finished. my first comment was very throwaway and an attempt at praise and hoping these 2 mods would be easily merged for maximum low effort
In the off-chance somebody's paying attention, what do people think about more generic animal names? Deon's "Essential DF" did something similar. I'm not interested in standardizing materials, but simplifying some of the names would make many leather products less ridiculous sounding. There's no reason why somebody in-universe would name storks "white storks", rather than just "storks", given that there's only one kind of them.
For example:
red-winged blackbirds would become blackbirds
white storks would become storks
grey parrots would become parrots (or at least gray parrots)
brown recluse spiders become recluse spiders
monarch butterflies become butterflies
peach-faced lovebirds become lovebirds (masked lovebirds remain masked lovebirds)
...As for reduced animal names, it might be a nice lighter weight alternative to material standardization mods (for the purpose of less silly names). I would probably use it, but it will be quite a lot of different vanilla file edits so compatibility could end up being a hassle.
One way of balancing this out is splitting the mod into modules, preferably at points where it won't be too much work to keep them separate.
Personally, I would welcome the change. I had already planned to make such raw changes, myself.
For my own play, though, I might take this a step further. That is, I'm tempted to combine some of the nearly identical animals. Does DF really need both peach-faced lovebirds and masked lovebirds? Does it really need nine different gibbons + various other small to medium primates?
Granted, nearly any change to existing raws does have the potential to cause a compatibility issue with mods.
However, I don't understand how renaming a few animals would be a big deal even if it did conflict with mods. Isn't the worst that could happen would be that overwriting Revised's animal raws with a mod's animal raws would revert the simplified names back to vanilla defaults? Is that a deal-breaker?
Perhaps Taffer could make the simplified names part of a separate module, like he did for more hairy dwarves?
...
But that's just it: Maintaining separate, optional modules is very likely going to be more work.
This is especially true for larger, complex mods with several different optional modules. Modest Mod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148265.0) comes to mind, with 8 modules. Button had to add and update extra modules - "Everything Is Tameable for Accelerated", "Pedestals for Accelerated" and "Tooltips for Accelerated" - just to maintain module compatibility with Accelerated. Even then, some modules were not compatible with each other. And you may have noticed that Modest Mod hasn't been updated in a while...
The idea of having optional modules certainly does have its pros. And it may be the way to go. I just wanted to point out that there is a potentially significant con, too.
If you're still taking some suggestions, one of my personal favorite small modifications is adding back the human guild representative and the elven diplomat to their respective civ entities. The guild rep allows players to make specific caravan requests from human civs, and the diplomats will bicker about tree cutting quotas once you get some landed nobility.
If you're still taking some suggestions, one of my personal favorite small modifications is adding back the human guild representativeand the elven diplomat(looks like they've been added to the vanilla raws in the latest versions, oops) to their respective civ entities . The guild rep allows players to make specific caravan requests from human civs, and the diplomats will bicker about tree cutting quotas once you get some landed nobility. Not sure if these are the sort of gameplay enhancements you'd be interested in, of course.
Huh? Was the elven diplomat absent for some time? I'm fairly sure it was a vanilla feature for quite long already.
or just accept that comparing file differences is going to be a long process.
Quoteor just accept that comparing file differences is going to be a long process.
I hope you know what you are doing. I regretted doing exactly this, every time Toady One released a major update with a lot of raw changes. Or whenever different tileset versions came into play, with the need to compare tile numbers.
Just want to say thanks for all the awesome work on Revised. I've had a lot of fun playing with it, and with the modest mods before this. It's a fine cathedral.
while I'm doing all of this, now's a good time to do that Grimlocke-inspired armor simplification I've been wanting. There won't be any "armored pants". Armored chest pieces will all protect the lower body and armored boots will protect the entire leg. I might not do this, but I like the idea.
Query; Does this change invader dodging behavior? I'm running this out of Meph's pack, and all invaders are dancing around my traps like The Matrix. Cages work fine, but spikes (x3) & giant axe blades (x2) have yet to land a single hit.
Does this work with the 44.12?
It should, yes. There's some RAW fixes that Toady has in the new releases that aren't in the current version. I'm not in a great place to check right now, though.
I don't think even Grimlocke's mod did anything to prevent tails and wings from being unintentionally armored.
I don't think even Grimlocke's mod did anything to prevent tails and wings from being unintentionally armored.
I am summoned!
And indeed I have not, I haven't really considered it a problem since animal people with armor are fairly rare and because most if not all animal people have a different size than humans and dwarves. This means they need to have custom-made armor and I imagine that if your making a tiny adorable suit of armor for your resident badger man that you might include a tail piece.
Its a bit handwavy, especially in the case of winged creatures, but custom-fitting plate armor is already not needed. The tallest, fattest dwarf will fit into the same suit of armor as the smallest, thinnest one. The easiest way of making wings mostly unarmored would just be to add a wing-collarbone (whatever that is called, birds do have an equivalent to collarbones), which leaves them only armored with mail and cloth. The combat report will still be silly, but gameplay effects mostly the same. Unless there's some way you can fool the game into losing track of what bodypart wings are attached to I can't think of any other graceful solution. Attaching wing-collarbones to the spine and capping UBSTEP at 2 would do I guess, but that would make armor unable to cover the forearm if your also using arm-collarbones.
As for the LIMB tag, doesn't adding that just let the creature use the bodypart to wrestle things? I think that armor layering part might be outdated. Armor and clothing will happily cover anything the right number of steps away from the upper/lower body that isn't internal or a GRASP, STANCE or HEAD part. It would be weird to wrestle something with your pinky finger, or your nose. Unless its an elephant. Side note: You could add grasp to trunks. At the small cost of any elephant-men wearing gloves on their trunk.
Anyhow, the gameplay effects of leaving animal people wings/tails unarmored might be something to consider, as they would be effectively useless as anything more than disposable militias. Which would be a bit of a shame given how uncommon they are.
A small suggestion regarding the removal of amphibious mounts: maybe make them all war trainable instead? I mean, the bug fix is perfectly reasonable, but I feel like there is a chunk of fun missing from the fact that certain water-crossing creatures won't appear in sieges anymore.
'll try "hardened" arrows with a smaller contact area.
I'll take my time to grok things like Wanderer's tiered leather and the Bonfire/Blacklung mod, so I can avoid introducing bugs like I did with Microreduce.
After, looking at some larger mods like Wanderer's tiered leather and Bonfire/Blacklung can start.
That's a good point about the tails. I can leave them armored. Shame I can't make upper body armor cover them.
I've been going through my own mod to get it up to date, add proper inline comments and make some minor adjustments, one of which was adding hipbones. Mainly for consistency and to make bludgeoning something in the lower body have a chance of flooring them, but it would also let normally LBSTEP 0 body armor cover tails I suppose.
I've also made a compatibility patch for this here lovely mod, which was still easier to do than I though. I'll proly put it out somewhere next week once I've had a chance to give it a test run.
revised $ git diff --stat v1.7.0...master
...
49 files changed, 4177 insertions(+), 3672 deletions(-) 37 files changed, 1780 insertions(+), 2000 deletions(-)I hope you know what you are doing. I regretted doing exactly this, every time Toady One released a major update with a lot of raw changes. Or whenever different tileset versions came into play, with the need to compare tile numbers.
Maybe I should rethink my stance on "cleaning up the RAWs a little", which would help a bit.
Regarding MAXAGE for giant creatures, I was very careful with these and considered it one of the most important changes in the entire mod, so I'm sad to hear that it was removed. The reason I consider it so important is that incubation/pregnancy length is fixed across all species, which makes [MAXAGE:1:1] giant creatures literally impossible to tame - which sucks when you embark in a savage jungle and happen to roll all your giants as giant vermin, especially since War Giant Mantises are so friggin sweet you guys; and War Giant Brown Recluse Spiders? They'll wipe the floor with anything organic. I'm sorry it had to be all over the place, instead of in the creature variation, but you know why that was necessary so whatevs.
I need to sort out the new collarbones and femurs.
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:BONELESS_HUMANOID:MUSCLE][CREATURE_VARIATION:BONELESS_HUMANOID]
[CV_NEW_TAG:BODYGLOSS:SHOULDER]
[CV_NEW_TAG:BODYGLOSS:HIP]
[CV_NEW_CTAG:1:MUSCLE:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS:MUSCLE]
[CV_NEW_CTAG:1:SPONGE:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS:SPONGE][BODYGLOSS:SHOULDER:collarbone:shoulder:collarbones:shoulders]
[BODYGLOSS:HIP:hip bone:hip:hip bones:hips][BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_TRUE:ARG1:100]Query; Does this change invader dodging behavior? I'm running this out of Meph's pack, and all invaders are dancing around my traps like The Matrix. Cages work fine, but spikes (x3) & giant axe blades (x2) have yet to land a single hit.
Can i use these revised files in 44.12 version? is it compatible?
Does this work with the 44.12?
It should, yes. There's some RAW fixes that Toady has in the new releases that aren't in the current version. I'm not in a great place to check right now, though.
Nothing cruicial really. Updated credit info (e.g. commentaries) and fixes for some typos in creature names and descriptions.
Time to update the version I have in the tileset... 8)
Nice to see that you are still improving this so much, it's great. :)
I've recently been made aware that aquatic animal people, like squid men for example, air-drown. Which I deem weird, since they get the animal-man body, which includes legs; aka a form a land transport. Would you consider removing AQUATIC from them and changing it to AMPHIBIOUS, or adding NOBREATH? Otherwise no one will ever see aquatic animal men anywhere.
[PREFSTRING:loyalty]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:unwavering loyalty]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:wet tongues]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:steadfast relationships]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:dependability]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:intensive search for scents] YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:murderous, psychotic tendencies]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:unified hatred of all land-dwelling creatures]
How calculate the crossbow's firing rate and penetration?
Lower shoot_force value, faster crossbow firing rate?
Is it inverse proportion?
Crossbow SHOOT_FORCE in revised is 600.
In vanilla, it is 1000.
I'd thought higher shoot force value, stronger range weapon damage.
Revision crossbows are faster and penetrate better.
SQUIRREL_GRAY:FEMALE:third right rear toe, layer 3: Tissue SKIN was not found, using first tissue instead*** Error(s) found in the file "raw/objects/creature_small_ocean.txt"
MUSSEL:Unrecognized Material Template: SKIN_WEAK_TEMPLATE
OYSTER:Unrecognized Material Template: SKIN_WEAK_TEMPLATE
*** Error(s) finalizing the creature MUSSEL
undefined local creature material set to default: MUSSEL SKIN
*** Error(s) finalizing the creature OYSTER
undefined local creature material set to default: OYSTER SKIN
*** Error(s) finalizing the entity FOREST
Unrecognized entity weapon token: ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_SINGING
Unrecognized entity weapon token: ITEM_WEAPON_CLUB_2H
Hey Taffer!
I was checking this mod out. I noticed that it's causing a ton of messages in errorlog.txt - almost all in of the same issue on many creatures and their parts. Hope this is helpful!
...
I ran a few worldgen tests using the basic generator, pocket, very short history, and got this pretty much consistently. Other than your raws, all default files from 44.12 (linux). I do not know if these have any real impact, but it does cause north of 20,000 lines to populate that log file on world gen ;)
Revision: weapon attacks have changed too much for sane commentary.lol :D
I haven't found as much time to work on this lately as I'd have liked, but there's still progress. The current revision in the repository is mostly what I envision the next release to look like: there should be relatively few bugs (if any), I just need to finish comparing it to vanilla and rewrite my documentation.
Sver's combat mod is integrated into this mod entirely now, except for the new items and with a few small changes.Full Sver's mod will be not compatible with Revised?
Since I don't play without Revised, my mod is pretty much designed to be compatible with it and will continue to be this way.
Sver's combat mod is integrated into this mod entirely now, except for the new items and with a few small changes.For me looks like it will be effective for you both to merge mods and develop together.
Taffer, I wanted you to know that I do appreciate this mod and all the time and work that goes into it. Just looking at all the comments in your GitLab Commits (https://gitlab.com/dwarf-fortress/revised/commits/master) makes my head spin. (BTW: Does GitLab have a "Releases" tab? I can't seem to find old releases or the date of releases.)
Anyway - and no pressure intended - but do you think you could risk giving a rough estimate when the next release might come? Before the end of the year? Sometime this month? The last release was in August, wasn't it (judging by the last edit of the OP)?
Full Sver's mod will be not compatible with Revised?
Since I don't play without Revised, my mod is pretty much designed to be compatible with it and will continue to be this way.
For me looks like it will be effective for you both to merge mods and develop together.
Not really, because both mods are passion projects, hence, me and Taffer have different vision and different core goals. Revised is a quality-of-life rework of vanilla, which touches almost every aspect of it with fixes and improvements, yet sticks to the original game's premise as close as possible. My mod is solely combat-oriented and noticeably strays from the vanilla combat balance (or lack thereof), while also trying to be challenging and entertaining for military-loving players, thus, the added variety and all that.
Any player with vanilla DF experience (or a newbie with a wiki on hand) can play Revised with little to no adaptation required, but playing with my mod requires getting familiar with the new balance and new items on the mod page first, and then the willingness to experiment with it all (as I'm yet to write any definitive descriptions for weapons, with too many changes still going on). To conclude: my mod is best played in conjunction with Revised, but Revised is not necessarily best played with my mod. On a positive note, my mod is pretty modular, so Taffer can easily take only the select parts of it (like the reworked default weapons) and improve the combat balance without making any radical, challenge-inducing alterations to it.
I've just discovered this mod and so far have found it pretty darn neat. Thanks for all the work you've put into it Taffer!
Have to say I LOVE some of the downright hilarious names that the expanded dictionary is generating!
For instance, both a forgotten beast named "Mung Chargedgreen-tree-frog-kitten the Introvert Narwhal People" and a poem called "Masturbate Steady" (which apparently concerns a lover...seems highly fitting) exist in my latest world.
Keep up the good work, Taffer! :)
This is one of those mods that I never realized I needed, but now don't ever want to play without.
Amazing job, all the hard work put into this really shows!
Hooray for this! I look away for a bit and its suddenly updated, looks like I get a compatch to work on.
I applaud your tenacity in the face of grueling repetition. Will let you know once the patch is done/if I run into anything.
Incidentally, I'm not completely sure if I've made a terrible mistake, putting both LIMB and JOINT on (internal) shoulders and hips. Please let me know if I have!
This is one of those mods that I never realized I needed, but now don't ever want to play without.
Amazing job, all the hard work put into this really shows!
Thank you! Let me know when you have complaints!Hooray for this! I look away for a bit and its suddenly updated, looks like I get a compatch to work on.
I applaud your tenacity in the face of grueling repetition. Will let you know once the patch is done/if I run into anything.
Thanks for the kind words! Lots of grueling repetition, alright.
The biggest thing to patch is that you need an extra LBSTEP and UBSTEP from vanilla, to accomodate my shoulders and hips, and of course dealing with the difference between my shoulders and your collarbones.
Incidentally, I'm not completely sure if I've made a terrible mistake, putting both LIMB and JOINT on (internal) shoulders and hips. Please let me know if I have!
What exactly is causing the shoulder to be pulled on hits to the head, I'm... not sure. Did you attach them to the neck?
Seems to work alright in my tests so far. The only unexpected thing is that strikes that pull neck (e.g. to the head) may occassionally also pull shoulders, but I would consider that a feature. Armor coverage works as intended.
Since its last update, my mod already has collarbones and hipbones, which is pretty close to mechanically identical to yours. The equipment and bodypart modifications will override the ones in Revision in this case, so that shouldn't be difficult to do for me (since there is no point in having both my weapons/armor and yours/Svers).
As an aside, the reason I didn't name collarbones shoulders, is that the game already has shoulders in the JOINTS sbodypart group, which by default is assigned to all humanoids. Adding the JOINT tag to something will serve two functions: Joint damage (pull/twist/bend) from the parent limb will hit the joint bodypart instead of the parent bodypart's parent, and it will disable the joint's parent part of the joint is disabled. I actually played around with something similar, but found it a bit... weird and superfluos, given that the collarbones are internal to the upper body and will already get damaged due to hits on the upper body.
What exactly is causing the shoulder to be pulled on hits to the head, I'm... not sure. Did you attach them to the neck?
As for LIMB, I think what it does is disable all bodyparts down the line if the bodypart is broken, so that a broken upper arm will actually render the arm useless. That might just be default behavior though, in that case I think LIMB might only be used for deciding which bodypart can be used in wrestling. I'm not sure which one of these it was anymore.
grep BODY:HUMANOID * | grep -v HUMANOID_JOINTS | cat -nWill give these a once-over once I get around to patching.
The hair thing is different, hair is just a tissue layer on the head that is ignored when something hits the it (due to the tissue layer type), but then isn't ignored by the pull/twist/bend damage that gets applied to the head (since a nose doesn't have a joint, its parent bodypart acts like one).
Why this is I don't know ―\_(ツ)_/―
* Harpies are renamed feral harpies. Serpent people (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Serpent_man) are renamed feral naga.
* Bird animal people are renamed harpies (ie, bluejay women are now bluejay harpies, eagle men are now eagle harps).
* Snake animal people are renamed naga (ie, copperhead snake men are now copperhead nagas. Adder women are now adder nagis.
Because ewes and rams have the same total body size, the added horns on rams actually make the rest of their body slightly smaller than an ewe's.
I noticed troglodytes are renamed to cavemen. While I don't really mind either way, the fact that they don't seem to use any sort of tools in Dwarf Fortress suggests to me they're more monstrous than they are man. "Caveman", at least to me, evokes an image of a primitive stone age man with rudimentary rock tools. Troglodytes are a fairly common fantasy monster trope, so I'd prefer that.
Quote from: DF wikiBecause ewes and rams have the same total body size, the added horns on rams actually make the rest of their body slightly smaller than an ewe's.
pls fix? ;)
Really like the leather rework.
Not sure about this, though:
...
There are many bird peoples that are not from Greek mythology and snake peoples not derived from Hinduism. And it's not like it helps with clarification: when it says "bluejay man", I just imagine a guy with a head of a bluejay. "Harpy", on the other hand, brings a lot of stereotype just with the name.
My 2 cents:
Using pre-existing fantasy names like nagas, harpies and gnolls brings along baggage that might not fit the (current) DF representation of those creatures. Nagas and gnolls, for instance, tend to have varying levels of culture (nagas commonly having some form of a nation or nations, gnolls often being roving mercenaries of some kind) and technology (such as metal armour and weapons). Animal people in Dwarf Fortress are very primitive in comparison; as far as I know the aboveground animal peoples tend to just mill around in big blobs and talk nonsense, typically mostly if not entirely naked, whereas their underground counterparts have some (rather poorly simulated) primitive tribal societies and technology such as blowpipes.
Also maybe it's just me, but I find some of the new descriptions almost... overly neutral? I know Toady's descriptions have a fairly neutral tone to them to begin with (eg. yetis are described as "a large ape-like creature", and many other fantastical creatures have similar descriptions that compare them to more mundane ones), but occasionally many of the more monstrous creatures are described as just that. For instance, minotaurs are described as "[a] giant humanoid monster with the head of a bull", but your rewritten description for them loses the monster part, describing them as "[a] tall, brutish [wo]man with woolly legs and arms, large hooves, and a bull's head."
Then on the other hand in the same minotaur description (and some of the other monster descriptions I've seen) it mentions how they like being naked... Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather not think about whether the giant bovine monster slaughtering my dwarves is naked or not! Haha.
Perhaps a good compromise solution would be doing a lite version that has all the gameplay improvements, but doesn't have any (extensive) description/creature name changes. If you wind up doing this, I'd seriously recommend looking into using some sort of a patch/diff solution to generate a set of diffs that you can apply to the vanilla files to reduce the manual version management headache, in case you're not doing that already. Git might work too.
I'm a little perplexed, to be honest: I don't see why I have to acknowledge every culture's mythology here any more than other fantasy works do. Harpies and naga are common fantasy tropes.I'm going to grumble a bit and say that fantasy tropes aren't doing a good job of acknowledging mythology sources either, and the only game I know of that pays homage to actual mythology is Dominions.
The stereotypes are exactly the point, to me. Without the stereotypes then the most I can give you is "this is a bluejay man" and whatever description I can fit in. It's not like modern literature is exactly filled with tales of bluejay people. By leaning on harpy and naga stereotypes people's imaginations fill in the gaps better.That's true, but Toady didn't call animal people "harpies" or "nagas", so now some us apparently have an established perception bias. I was quite surprised by my reaction too, to be honest.
naked minotaurs issuePersonally, I thought it was a good-spirited jab at minotaurs' habit of waving their non-existent magnum dong around. Like, they're smart enough to get clothes, the adventurers are clothed, but the rest of them cosplay Biggus Dickus way too literally. I have nothing against a few little cheeky jokes here and there.
That's true, but Toady didn't call animal people "harpies" or "nagas", so now some us apparently have an established perception bias. I was quite surprised by own my reaction too, to be honest.
Using pre-existing fantasy names like nagas, harpies and gnolls brings along baggage that might not fit the (current) DF representation of those creatures.
Throwing my opinion in -- I do like the harp/harpy name change. The change in descriptions from original DF from "guy with animal head" to the more anthropomorphized animals seems to accommodate more creature-like names. I don't have too much experience with the mod though so I haven't seen all the descriptions.
I've read quite a bit more of the raws now, so here's the most complete feedback/thoughts I'll probably have on this!
There are a few reasons I find the descriptions weird, uncanny, and even a bit creepy.
They use gendered nouns for virtually everything, while normal people refer to animals (and most non-human creatures) as "it" unless deliberately going for an affectionate tone or if the distinction is somehow relevant. Pretty much all even remotely humanoid creatures are referred to as men and women, when it would be more natural to refer them to as creatures or monsters like the vanilla descriptions do (who looks at a sasquatch and thinks "oh, that's a hairy man"?).
Pretty much all humanoid creatures get two genders and most of them bear children, but I don't think this is necessary or even sensible for mythical creatures like satyrs or harpies, who are canonically exclusively male and female in their originating mythologies and probably don't subscribe to mundane rules of biology, or even for DF-original fantastical creatures like nightwings (because they're fantasy monsters and it makes just as much sense in-universe for them to be born out of the souls of dead goblins or something as it does for them to reproduce biologically).
Then there's the constant, incessant reminders that things are indeed naked with their naughty bits hanging out.
So yeah, pretty much the weird sex nudism gendery anthropomorphisation stuff is what I don't like about the descriptions. Seriously puts me off.
Then there are some other niggles. Tons of creatures that represent specific species get renamed into more generic animals, such as sperm whales becoming just whales, great white sharks becoming just sharks, and black mambas becoming just mambas. I don't think there's any reason to change this when the descriptions match those specific species. Also, a handful of other creatures, such as blue jays, get renamed to remove spaces in their names, even though their proper names contain a space, but other creatures, such as large rats, don't.
Lots and lots of creatures also gain CURIOUSBEAST tags. Many of them gain a very generous selection of them, often getting all three. While I haven't done extensive playtesting, CURIOUSBEAST creatures are among the most annoying things a fort can encounter, particularly in the beginning, so I suspect adding this many can make certain kinds of embarks much more annoying. Pretty much every single primate seemed to gain all three tokens, which is a bit odd because not even the premier annoying primate in DF, the rhesus macaque, is attracted to booze.
The new leather types are pretty nice, but I don't think "feather" makes any sense. Feathers are generally used without being attached to the skin. I suspect this might be because they don't stay attached to the skin very well after the tanning process, but I don't know.
Also, many creatures that have coarse, short hair are tagged as being furry in their description (ie. [TLCM_NOUN:fur:SINGULAR]), but in common use the words used for the hair of these animals (eg. cows, horses) is just hair, and their skin (with the hair attached) is called hide. This is a bit nitpicky, though!
Amidst all this criticism I must say I really dig the overwhelming majority of the actual gameplay changes though. It's the reason I'm here. In fact, I like them so much that faced with the choice of giving them up because I didn't like the descriptions, renames and other minor changes, I instead chose to spend the past five hours cobbling together a homebrew version of the mod that only has the gameplay changes without any changes to the creature names or descriptions.
EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot about the expanded dictionary. I'd rather not have my dwarves write poems about labias and rape, so I got rid of that too.
The vanilla descriptions already do.
Why are kobold females women and adder females not?I don't think they are? Kobold females should just be referred to as kobold ♀ or something in-game, given that they lack any caste-specific name tags. But now that I think of it I'm not too sure, as virtually all of my kobold interactions are with kobold thieves who are called just that.
I've always disliked 'hair' here, though. I genuinely, literally don't remember the last time somebody referred to my cat's fur as "hair" (when he's still wearing it, not when it's detached). It always made reading animal descriptions feel off to me. This change was from Essential DF, and should probably be mentioned in the description.
I'm genuinely not sure Revised will be for you. I'm toning down the references to nudity but I've worked damn hard on my descriptions and I'm pretty proud of them, even though they're not finished.
I've read quite a bit more of the raws now, so here's the most complete feedback/thoughts I'll probably have on this!
....
Perhaps one day I'll release my own mod (with blackjack etc.), but that day won't come until I figure out something to make merging raws from different mods easier. I'm not aware of any such tool existing yet (tools like KDiff help, but are still a ton of manual work), so I'd probably have to write it myself. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the work you're doing here it's just that not all of it is for me, and I'd rather just have the bugfixes and such!
Your game might be more fun to read:He is Amostubal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=116815).
⁍ there are far more words (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172037.0) in the language files. (GoblinCookie, Amostubel)
Is it possible to do anything with kobolds civ? - would like their population to be more than 600 on average for each civ and that they were more frequent in the fortress mode.
I myself tried to fix it by adding agriculture (INDOOR_WOOD, INDOOR_FARMING) for them, but for some reason I found that the game cannot generate civ, who live in [DEFAULT_SITE_TYPE:CAVE_DET
He is Amostubal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=116815).
Does this (https://gitlab.com/dwarf-fortress/revised/commit/9e74974cedfb58ef4c836ed1a35ef0d477b202a5) meet with your approval so far, Burneddi? I'm removing every instance of woman or man in every description, and I've toned down the (admittedly repetitive) references to nudity.
Outside of using that I strongly recommend against an automated solution. Mods conflict with each other, and sometimes they conflict with each other in non-obvious ways. A diff tool is the best approach here, unless you can convince everyone to use Rubble (and even then, Rubble can't solve the "non-obvious conflicts" problem). It's why working on Revised is so time consuming.
Please, you don't need to go to such extents just to satisfy little old me.
I was thinking more along the lines of a diff tool that's smart enough to understand the raw formatting, so it can compare changes on a type and token level. Something that can automerge non-conflicting changes that only affect a couple of tokens on a type.
This will at least give Grimlocke and Sver a chance to catch up.
Heheh, yeah, well, I still got plenty of stuff to do for the next update: decided to rewrite the weapon sets and extrapolate on that elven weapons idea for a new optional (varied army compositions for humans and goblins). And that's before I start to merge the new Revised files in and organize some new folders to pack away old clothing, although, these two things should be fairly quick to do. So, I'll probably linger till the 2.0.2 (?) update, if there's something that deals with the b_detail_plan_default, body_default, c_variation_default or material_template_default.
Btw, I'd like to report that there don't seem to be any problems with the removal of melting points for organic materials as of previous version. Creatures on arena seem to burn just fine, even though it takes a bit more time for them to receive damage this way. I didn't want to bring back the fat bleeding, so they don't die as fast as in vanilla, though.
I'll be contemplating removing sponge people and giant sponges from the game, because neither make sense
I've noticed that quarry bushes seem to be giving leaves right away now, without the need of processing. Is this intended? If so, it is, indeed, very handy!
Well dang, then. Wordpad does work, but I'm not sure if I'd like to bother fixing it all that way, and the download for the suggested file would take most of the day. I might just pass this up for now, since while the balances are nice, there's nothing too major in the terms of changing gameplay.
Actually, I don't think newlines matter to the Dwarf Fortress raw parser, do they? You can still use the mod, the files just won't look pretty when you open them in a text editor.
Eligiblefoot,
Are you sure that it is connected to the Bitlands tileset? I've also reverted the language changes from the mod for myself, and had similar crashes. I've found that entity_default.txt must also be edited. There is a [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:OBSCENE] line for every civilization, and after removing those lines I was able to generate worlds again.
Regards,
way
Hey I love your mods but I'm not really a big fan of the language changes. So I use the default ones, but for some reason when using the Bitlands tileset, my game crashes if I try to design a new world with advance parameters. If I use your language files, it works fine. I'm not sure what the reason is. I have replaced language files before with no problems before.
So this is sort the continuation of Button's Modest Mod ? Color me interested.
Loved the original work, gonna put that in my RAWs. I tried to remove the scratch attacks from my dwarves by removing the nail tissues, but they still do scratch.
If I see any weird bugs, I'll mention them.
Eligiblefoot,
...
It appears that using ":" in a description cuts it off there and then, as can be seen in the human description. You've probably noticed it already, but I just wanted to let you know.
... and I'm intrigued by both the simplified clothing and the varied army compositions idea.
I'll also be giving bird people arm talons...
... and I'll be contemplating removing sponge people and giant sponges from the game, because neither make sense (sponges don't move, even in DF).
... and I'm intrigued by both the simplified clothing and the varied army compositions idea.
I'm still interested in simplified clothing but I don't remember at all what I mean by varied army compositions. I've been working on the descriptions for too long.
There's a poll up. Comments are welcome.While I voted for the second option, I think a better solution is to rename <Animal>man to <Animal>folk. Much like the standard fantasy Lizardfolk.
While I voted for the second option, I think a better solution is to rename <Animal>man to <Animal>folk. Much like the standard fantasy Lizardfolk.
While I voted for the second option, I think a better solution is to rename <Animal>man to <Animal>folk. Much like the standard fantasy Lizardfolk.
I liked this so much that I built it into the poll as part of the first option. Thanks for the suggestion! It'd be a little odd looking at a "masked lovebird folk" (singular), but it works IMO.
My vote is leave the names on a singular basis as they are (coyote man, coyote woman for example,) but perhaps use -folk suffix as a better plural, at least for the ones that are less of a mouthful - coyote folk, mantis folk, and so on seems like a more natural sounding plural to differentiate them from the other variations of the animal they're based in.
Alternatively, more archaic constructions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly)can be used. For coyote man - coyotecephalus, coyote woman -coyotecephales.
But in principle the suffix "-folk" is great, and the fact that it is impossible to apply gender distinction for him is good, because for civilized races do not care what about talking toad sex. All these dog -man and -woman have a negative association with comics.
Taffer, first of all, I want to express my gratitude for sharing this mod and admiration for the continued work and keeping it updated.
Something I wanted to ask about: I've noticed there are a few differences (a few features that seem missing by way of omission/mention) between the readme for v2.1.0 and v1.7.0.
I have a suspicion that most of these are no longer mentioned because Toady got around to fixing them. But I wanted to ask.
For dilemmas on what Revised should or should not change, I think we should consider: What is the primary goal or aim of Revised? Is it to more-or-less fill the role that Modest Mod used to serve: To fix some bugs and make very minor changes that virtually nobody would object to? Is it to change things for the sake of realism, convenience or to better fit traditional fantasy tropes? Or, perhaps, is it something in between?
Of course, since this is Taffer's mod, he would have to answer that. But I would point out that more and more controversial changes would, inevitably, lead some to decide to avoid using Revised.
If the purpose of Revised is the former - to fix things and make changes that are not controversial - then I don't think a change such as this is wise. For one thing, changing the names of various things in Dwarf Fortress - particularly the names of animal people or other races - will confuse new players.
It is especially confusing or inconvenient in how such radically-altered names would not align with the names used in the official wiki. If we, for example, type in "Lizardfolk" in the search form and click, we get "There were no results matching the query." However, if we type in "Lizardman", the wiki redirects to "Reptile man" and it gives us the relevant info.
This push to rename animal people from using the "-man" suffix to using the "-folk" suffix is not motivated by a desire for the game to be made more PC... is it...? :-\
It's pretty jarring (in my opinion) looking at what the game labels a "hyena man", only to realize that it's actually a "hyena woman". This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with consistency.
My vote is leave the names on a singular basis as they are (coyote man, coyote woman for example,) but perhaps use -folk suffix as a better plural, at least for the ones that are less of a mouthful - coyote folk, mantis folk, and so on seems like a more natural sounding plural to differentiate them from the other variations of the animal they're based in. Similar to how human men and women are collectively just called humans, or dwarf men and women would collectively just be called dwarves (with the understanding it's not what these creatures call themselves, since why would they append themselves as whatever-men/women or whatever-folk.)
Alternatively, more archaic constructions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly)can be used. For coyote man - coyotecephalus, coyote woman -coyotecephales.
I do not think that one word construction will be suitable for all types of semi-animals.
But in principle the suffix "-folk" is great, and the fact that it is impossible to apply gender distinction for him is good, because for civilized races do not care what about talking toad sex. All these dog -man and -woman have a negative association with comics.
Actually... I... could get behind this idea. As long as the singular name is left as it is in vanilla DF (allowing us to still search them in the wiki), having a "-folk" or some other plural name should not pose as much of an issue.
You want to make animal men names that complicated to pronounce and remember? :o Please no! Those are real tongue twisters. How can anyone other than a biologist or major science nerd appreciate them?
I do not like deviating from vanilla DF too much, especially if it makes the official wiki rather useless as a game reference.
Why make the idea exclusively a Revised thing? If using "-folk" or "-kin" really is such a better way of naming them, then why not post it in a separate suggestion thread or otherwise try to bring the idea to Toady's attention? At least, if Toady decides to do this, then the wiki would get updated with the new names and it would still remain highly relevant to Revised users.
Also, have you considered how, the more Revised deviates from vanilla DF, the more unlikely it is to get another mod to work with Revised without a lot of work? If not even the names of various creatures and races are the same, then getting it to work with another mod would probably be a chore.
Either I'm always high and never noticed, or I'm seriously unobservant. I could have sworn female animal people had the "woman" part as a caste level name that'd show up on the unit list and such. :-\Vanilla raws are "hyena man" and "hyena woman". Vanilla description is "A person with the head and markings of a hyena", not whatever that screenshot above was from.
Vanilla raws are "hyena man" and "hyena woman". Vanilla description is "A person with the head and markings of a hyena", not whatever that screenshot above was from.
Is vanilla not reading the raws correctly? In which case not much point in making any suggestions to Toady, but posting a bug reoort instead.
I like (and use in my own mod) -folk.
Ah, yes, I see. The creature name is all "-man", so when it uses that instead of the caste it's weird, of course. I see I named all my new animal people -person/-people (sometimes one word, sometimes hyphenated) and the actual entities -folk. You've now inspired me to rename the rest of the vanilla "-men".Vanilla raws are "hyena man" and "hyena woman". Vanilla description is "A person with the head and markings of a hyena", not whatever that screenshot above was from.
Is vanilla not reading the raws correctly? In which case not much point in making any suggestions to Toady, but posting a bug reoort instead.
I like (and use in my own mod) -folk.
Screenshot above is from Revised with my tileset and color scheme. The game doesn't use the caste name everywhere it should, as shown above. Everyone's talking about folk as a plural form, but my question was about the singular general name, not the caste name and not specifically only the plural form. I'm leaning toward " sprite" and " folk" for the plural at the moment.
Honestly I wouldn't have opened a poll for discussion if I was just going to rename the plural form to "folk" and leave everything else alone, I would have just done it.
AFAIK, it should only use the "Hyena Man" for a female in two situations: when talking about items/materials made from one, and in the Arena. That's because in either of those situations the game looks at NAME instead of CASTE_NAME.Ah, yes, I see. The creature name is all "-man", so when it uses that instead of the caste it's weird, of course. I see I named all my new animal people -person/-people (sometimes one word, sometimes hyphenated) and the actual entities -folk. You've now inspired me to rename the rest of the vanilla "-men".Vanilla raws are "hyena man" and "hyena woman". Vanilla description is "A person with the head and markings of a hyena", not whatever that screenshot above was from.
Is vanilla not reading the raws correctly? In which case not much point in making any suggestions to Toady, but posting a bug reoort instead.
I like (and use in my own mod) -folk.
Screenshot above is from Revised with my tileset and color scheme. The game doesn't use the caste name everywhere it should, as shown above. Everyone's talking about folk as a plural form, but my question was about the singular general name, not the caste name and not specifically only the plural form. I'm leaning toward " sprite" and " folk" for the plural at the moment.
Honestly I wouldn't have opened a poll for discussion if I was just going to rename the plural form to "folk" and leave everything else alone, I would have just done it.
So, if it's the creature name, are you thinking of something like "a male hyena-folk", "a female polar bear-folk", etc?
It seems a bit off to me. "-sprite" works better. But I'll stick with "person". Most of the time it seems to catch the caste name OK, and bugs will get fixed eventually.
It seems I was mistaken as to the extent of the problem and this is a pretty diff-intensive change, so I'll probably abandon the idea given that it's controversial. Thank you to everyone who voted and gave feedback!The other place that this occurs, and I don't know whether you'd even consider it an issue, is in the util, Legends Viewer (which is pretty popular as far as I know - more so than in-game Legends Mode perhaps). That uses the creature name for it's descriptions. So, yeah, you'd probably consider this an issue for Legends Viewer to fix, but it is more widely seen than just in the arena.
I know I'm late to the party, but I'm dissapointed that nobody had suggested to use "dude" for all those gender things:
"Hey, there's a hyenadude in my fortress!"
"A keadude stole an anvil!"
"We're under attack by flying squirrel dudes!"
Look at this. That's poetry waiting to happen.
Alright. Very minor feedback Played one or two fortresses so far. Haven't been getting deep into the mod or looking for mod errors, but here's what I think.
-Didn't see any noticeable bugs.
-Not sure I'm fond of some of the renaming (like the term "male harpy" triggers me a bit. Harpies are monogendered in myth, damn it.), also while I appreciate the additional diversity in words, the names it produces are even more WTF. Half of the names seem based upon various types of gemstones, which seems fitting thematically for dwarves but does truly produce some odd results.
-Are picks no longer the second best (and most entertaining) weapon apart from vanilla whips/scourges ? That would change a bit my gamestyle. Goodbye war miners. And from what little I've seen in combat, I like the other changes.
-I like the reflavoring of creature description so far.
-How do you edit your raws ? I swear I cannot touch those raws anymore due to them being so condensed now. (And I enjoy editing stuff and making a few flavor changes.) Do you use Notepad++ or something like that ?
You'll need to use a better text editor (https://notepad-plus-plus.org/) to edit these files in Windows.
-Are picks no longer the second best (and most entertaining) weapon apart from vanilla whips/scourges ? That would change a bit my gamestyle. Goodbye war miners.
Is it normal that in adventurer mode, attacks seem to be way slower than normal? Like a regular slash or stab with a longsword is "VVSlow".
The expanded dictionary will be deleted.
They should be mostly compatible - ...
Is it normal that in adventurer mode, attacks seem to be way slower than normal? Like a regular slash or stab with a longsword is "VVSlow".
Yes. That's a part of the weapon rebalance from my mod.
...
Honestly glad you chose the wheel of pain here, as a lot of the words did spice things up. I had started to do a manual pass myself but I just don't have the brainspace for it. It feels much more in line with the whole flavour of Revised to meticulously pore over the whole dictionary making edits like an insane hermetic scholar, even if it means we don't get a release for a bit. Kudos to you for your efforts.
If you're taking suggestions, Taffer, I've dipped back in after a while and would love to offer some stuff; grasping tails for snakemen and smaller reptile-men, for example, though I don't know how you'd feel about that.
One omission I thought appropriate to fix is the lack of training weapons for mace/hammer dwarves. A remedy is offered below, if desired.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, after I go through adding all of Taffer's changes, I'm going to add yours as well. Any tips?
I love everything this does, along with Sver's combat mod. I am curious about a few of masterwork's features though; primarily the new workshops and a couple of the additional invaders. Any word on how they may interact with installing these over masterwork's pack? I would have thought someone must have tried, but can't find any reference to compatibility between them anywhere.I've got an okay understanding of this. Revised makes a lot of changes to creature and tissue templates in b_detail_plan_default.txt, body_default.txt, and c_variation_default.txt. These changes will make pretty much all creatures tougher, and instances of combat will last longer. Any modded creatures or races that masterwork adds to the game willl get these changes.
But Revised also goes back into every specific humanoid race and nerfs their unarmed melee attacks. Removing Scratching and biting from many humanoids, and adding a velocity limitation on strikes. Any modded creatures or races that masterwork adds to the game won't get these changes.
As a result, non-vanilla creatures will be subjectively stronger.
And masterwork weapons aren't balanced in the same way as Revised weapons. Masterwork weapons have very different costs and effectiveness in combat.
This mod looks interesting. I'll be watching this thread.
Giant animal versions always have COPY_TAGS_FROM, so why put in the work of duplicating tags like [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER]? I don't think it's one of the tags that's excluded, like caste tags.
I'm messing with this right now, using the latest version on the git to update Meph's tileset LNP, which has an older version.
When was [SHELL], [ITEMS_HARD] and [ITEMS_SCALED] removed from [MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CHITIN_TEMPLATE] in the material_template_default? Was this because chitin was made useable as a leather, and didn't need to be a shell?
Huh, thanks for noticing!
It appears that Taffer wanted to do something with it, like a unique type of chitin-leather (there is a template for it), but either rolled back or didn't quite finish, as the template is not used anywhere and chitin just yields regular leather.
Personally, I think shell-chitin is more fun and useful.
Monogendred humanoids must be monogendered. Just make another way to reproduce. Example harpy can do interaction transform spouse conversion target and female into harpy. Or make two very different castes, example male is satyr, female is driade.
I removed SHELL, ITEMS_HARD, and ITEMS_SCALED from chitin because I was watching Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and I thought crafting chitin pants would be a pretty awesome feature. I stopped using the specific chitin leather material because I realized I just didn't care much if the leather was actually different in protection levels from regular leather and I didn't want the headache of an additional material to balance. I'll have to decide what to do with it: I kind of like chitin pants though.
Giant animal versions always have COPY_TAGS_FROM, so why put in the work of duplicating tags like [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER]? I don't think it's one of the tags that's excluded, like caste tags.
I'm going to get rid of scale leather entirely though, to be honest. Mod-added scaly creatures and randomly generated scaly creatures won't yield scale leather either, and I like consistency. It's also an unnecessary deviation from vanilla, IMO.
Modifying the SCALE_TEMPLATE to include the LEATHER token and MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SCALE prevents the need of a new scale_leather template. When butchered, your tanners will simply tan the raw scale into "Creature" scale. Then your dwarfs can run around with *alligator scale trousers* with only the addition of two tokens to one material template.
...
And hurray for end of hiatus! Love your work with Revised.
As to material property balance, I say give chitin essentially identical properties to bone and call it a day. In my personal mods (which includes chitin armor), I gave chitin slightly higher Shear/Tensile/Torsion/Bending properties over bone (but still less than copper), and identical Impact/Compression properties as bone. Its been very pleasing to play with dwarves sporting *Giant Cave Spider Chitin Helm* and -Giant Horseshoe Crab Chitin Breastplate- as lightweight training armor and general civilian militia garb.
Then there are some other niggles. Tons of creatures that represent specific species get renamed into more generic animals, such as sperm whales becoming just whales, great white sharks becoming just sharks, and black mambas becoming just mambas. I don't think there's any reason to change this when the descriptions match those specific species.
Also, a handful of other creatures, such as blue jays, get renamed to remove spaces in their names, even though their proper names contain a space, but other creatures, such as large rats, don't.
Lots and lots of creatures also gain CURIOUSBEAST tags. Many of them gain a very generous selection of them, often getting all three. While I haven't done extensive playtesting, CURIOUSBEAST creatures are among the most annoying things a fort can encounter, particularly in the beginning, so I suspect adding this many can make certain kinds of embarks much more annoying. Pretty much every single primate seemed to gain all three tokens, which is a bit odd because not even the premier annoying primate in DF, the rhesus macaque, is attracted to booze.
The new leather types are pretty nice, but I don't think "feather" makes any sense. Feathers are generally used without being attached to the skin. I suspect this might be because they don't stay attached to the skin very well after the tanning process, but I don't know.
Also, many creatures that have coarse, short hair are tagged as being furry in their description (ie. [TLCM_NOUN:fur:SINGULAR]), but in common use the words used for the hair of these animals (eg. cows, horses) is just hair, and their skin (with the hair attached) is called hide. This is a bit nitpicky, though!
Quote from: DF wikiBecause ewes and rams have the same total body size, the added horns on rams actually make the rest of their body slightly smaller than an ewe's.
pls fix? ;)
Lots and lots of creatures also gain CURIOUSBEAST tags. Many of them gain a very generous selection of them, often getting all three. While I haven't done extensive playtesting, CURIOUSBEAST creatures are among the most annoying things a fort can encounter, particularly in the beginning, so I suspect adding this many can make certain kinds of embarks much more annoying. Pretty much every single primate seemed to gain all three tokens, which is a bit odd because not even the premier annoying primate in DF, the rhesus macaque, is attracted to booze.
VSR gives animal people grasping tails
This adds a lot of changes to the base files and I'm concerned about side effects, such as mittens going on tails and such. I also have a bit of trouble seeing how legless animal people can use their tails to attack or hold things, seeing as they're currently using it for balance.
VSR makes animal people dwarf sized
I actually prefer the flavor of vanilla, to be honest. I see Revised as being about look and feel first of all, bug-fixing second, and gameplay tweaks a distant third. This leaned a little too far into "gameplay tweaks" territory for my comfort.
VSR gives worm people utterances and buffs them
See the comments about gameplay tweaks. I did integrate the skill improvements Warlord255 added for all(?) animal people, but worm people were buffed above and beyond this. I'm on the fence, so I didn't add it. I'm not sure off-hand what all the UTTERANCES tag does, so I erred on the side of caution.
VSR rework crows and magpies as proper creatures, not vermin
Why can't they be vermin? I can see why it's inconsistent with other creatures, though. The new Modest Mod thread has at least one person suggesting that more creatures be made vermin. It means quite a few changes from vanilla either way though, so I'm wary of it.
VSR makes sharks and carp crazed
I'm concerned I've already gone too far in the "make the game arbitrarily harder" direction, with all the CURIOUS item stealing tags everywhere and the new harder farming changes I integrated. This doesn't seem particularly realistic either, to be honest.
VSR gives cave_adapted to underground creatures
Interesting change. I was on the fence about it. I ended up not adding this because it needed quite a few changes and I didn't think it would come out in gameplay enough. I also want to do proper gameplay testing for this release and to be honest I didn't feel like adding this to my testing to-do list.
VSR removes vermin attacks because they don't attack correctly
I've never noticed this coming out in-game as a bug? I'm wary of including fixes for things that don't actually affect my gameplay, but I might be wrong about this one.
I've just added some Comments (some just personal opinion) and my Modders Knowledge to some scenarios. I didn't answer it all, as some of the points are points only a mod's author/visionary (I believe) should be the one to have the say in.
I'd need to go over things again to double check for gaps, but I think the vanilla marked weapons in Sver's would work just great. Those sets are daunting and can probably be set aside, but the reworked weapon values really improve on vanilla combat.
If you're at all interested(and assuming I can be timely), I'm about 90% through building a relatively simplified weapon and armor system for my own game(running a merged Revised+Sver base, so shoulders/hips). It features closer to vanilla material costs, a less dizzying array of weapons(roughly 30% more than vanilla, enough to fill some gaps and present some choice) with slower combat pacing. Armor keeps depth but has straight forward options(and doesn't cost as much as an entire vanilla uniform for one piece :P).
It'll take me a day or two to finishing commenting the files and write a reference sheet (and to make sure I didn't do anything dumb), but I'd be happy to bundle it off to you if it would be any use. It's purely item_* files and plus an Entity inclusion list, so it should be easy to try out.
Edit: I updated to your latest raws and I don't crash anymore.
Which is great! But I'm still getting errors from your giant creatures, which is mysterious. Log below.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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TAUPE_GREY
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I don't know if I need to beg you or Sver, but dogs -still- don't seem to use their bite attacks. I mean, ever. Most non-giant war animals, actually, only seem to ineffectually paw at things until they're pasted. I feel like that bug has been around in the standard game for a long time too, but I do have a memory of things being bitten, at one time.
Modifying the SCALE_TEMPLATE to include the LEATHER token and MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SCALE prevents the need of a new scale_leather template. When butchered, your tanners will simply tan the raw scale into "Creature" scale. Then your dwarfs can run around with *alligator scale trousers* with only the addition of two tokens to one material template.
May I suggest making stoneware magma safe?
So, Toady just confirmed today that kill_neutral ethics are the decider for alliances in the next version, which means if Goblins lose kill_neutral:required (as I think this mod does) they won't have alliances form against them and could potentially form alliances with elves, dwarves and humans against zombie apocalypses (I assume this mod doesn't adjust necromance ethics).
That's kind of cool, but does take the game a little further away from vanilla than the mod probably intends.
May I suggest making stoneware magma safe?
Why?
The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280
"animal people and giant animals that spawn in pools spawn in lakes instead"
Maybe im dumb, but what exactly is a lake in DF? I dont know that iv ever embarked on one. Which would mean I would never see any of the giant animals / animal people. Is a lake a defined thing or just a bigger pool?
Also curious- you made elves and goblins mortal. Does this change worldgen significantly?
The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280
It can be worked around somewhat, by using the SKILL_LEARN_RATE token instead. As far as I could observe, it works on adventurers.
It's a biome. I have no doubt it makes those creatures spawn less overall, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to live around tiny ponds.
This change was inherited from the Modest Mod, so I've not actually tested it. I'll make sure this change is working as expected before my next release.
EDIT: after some thought and some reading I'll revert this change. Today's vision of savage regions is that the land mutates existing creatures into new forms, and therefore the giant and animal person variations should probably spawn in the same biomes their normal brethren do.
Also curious- you made elves and goblins mortal. Does this change worldgen significantly?
slow creatures and creatures that curl up are also bad mounts
According to the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Murky_pool#Bugs), non-vermin creatures fail to spawn in pools.
Let me know if you want this kept (it's literally why I'm posting about changes before I release).
• Goblins and subterranean creatures now have KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED again, like vanilla. I think it's stupid, but I'll defer to the next version.
I'm still thinking things over. I still have Sver's material changes and I haven't exactly tested those, but my gut tells me they're fine.
I'll be reverting all changes to PET, PET_EXOTIC, and mount changes (with the exception of the removal of amphibious mounts and possibly the change below).
• Elves don't use greatarrows anymore, only regular arrows. They still wield wooden maces and wooden mauls instead of wooden swords. I might revert that too. Wooden blunt weapons make more sense than wooden edged weapons, but wooden swords have a "rule of cool" sort of feel to them.
Oh. Oh, well, let me think...
First of all I'd like to say that, playing Revised from the days when it was overwhelmingly bugfixes with just a bunch of modular quality-of-life reactions, I don't mind a more frugal approach to the changes. Even though some do enhance gameplay, imo, it is understandable that it's just not the core idea of this mod.
However, some features that might appear as excessive oftentimes serve as crutches for various things that are broken or shaky in the vanilla game, and those I'll always speak in favor of.
Quote Goblins and subterranean creatures now have KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED again, like vanilla. I think it's stupid, but I'll defer to the next version.
Think it's better to keep it until the actual game update comes out. It prevents a ton of adventure mode lag and loyalty troubles, and it's hard to say yet how long until the next DF release.
I'd say you can't go wrong with keeping the force transfer related changes at least :P
Without them the mechanic is really absurd.
QuoteI'll be reverting all changes to PET, PET_EXOTIC, and mount changes (with the exception of the removal of amphibious mounts and possibly the change below).
I don't precisely recall what changes these are, could you elaborate?
Other than the water buffalo one, which is not great, as it causes horse-like overpopulation in non-player sites. While we are at it, I'd also like to propose making horses not COMMON_DOMESTIC for this very reason.
Quote Elves don't use greatarrows anymore, only regular arrows. They still wield wooden maces and wooden mauls instead of wooden swords. I might revert that too. Wooden blunt weapons make more sense than wooden edged weapons, but wooden swords have a "rule of cool" sort of feel to them.
This is a different take, as it is very subjective, of course, but I would advice to pick a direction with elves that is one way or the other: true to vanilla or boosted to be actually effective in combat. The main problem with elven wood equipment isn't just its poor hitting power - mainly it's the fact that it breaks from few strikes, both ways. To boost the elves they'd need not only better weapons, but a material template change for wood to accompany that: and it would only be a safe boost if you go with edged weapons and properties, because stronger impact properties on wood would lead to unbreakable wooden shields.
The current weapon change doesn't really do much for elves, unless the goal is more about flavor (e.g. more sensible wooden weapons).
It's not confirmed, but hopefully the amphibious mounts pathing into water bug has been fixed by the new mount mechanics in the next release. Now, riders directly command their mount's souls (or something) so the rider chooses where to go (and therefore, presumably, won't path into a river). The mount only takes over if the rider is inactive for a while.
I'm not sure how well your material changes fare when they're removed from your armor and weapons
Things like taking bears, worms, and other creatures with inappropriate PET tags and giving them PET_EXOTIC instead. Also it adds a few mounts (like reindeer). From memory the only mounts I've removed are amphibious, slow, or curl up when threatened.
I can't buff wood without buffing training weapons.
It's not confirmed, but hopefully the amphibious mounts pathing into water bug has been fixed by the new mount mechanics in the next release. Now, riders directly command their mount's souls (or something) so the rider chooses where to go (and therefore, presumably, won't path into a river). The mount only takes over if the rider is inactive for a while.
There was a question about it in FOTF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821550#msg7821550), and Toady clarified that the changes will most likely only apply to adventure mode for now, so it's probably best not to defer to.No, in that Q&A he says quite clearly that the commands are limited to movement right now (as opposed to armadillo rolling and other mount abilities).
There was a question about it in FOTF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7821550#msg7821550), and Toady clarified that the changes will most likely only apply to adventure mode for now, so it's probably best not to defer to.No, in that Q&A he says quite clearly that the commands are limited to movement right now (as opposed to armadillo rolling and other mount abilities).
Movement is what's killing amphibious mount riders right now because the mount is choosing where to path. Now it's controlled by riders (who don't want to drown).
And also, dwarves won't get mounts. But then, whether dwarves should ever get mounts is still an open question.
Where are you seeing "Fortress mode mount mechanics will be different to Adventurer mechanics"? Not sure that's even possible.
Quote4. Will there be any changes to mounted unit AI in battle? Will someone on horseback with a bow try to stay away from melee soldiers, if they don't already? Will flying units do the same?4. I doubt it, unless a mounted party feels super broken, which is possible.
I went ahead and bashed together a compatibility fix for 4.7/Villains. No content changes, did diff checks to narrow down additions to vanilla entity_default and language files.
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14691
Why is it that when opening the .txt files in notepad it's like there are no linebreaks and the whole file is a single long line?
I'm interested in introducing some of these changes into my own raws, but Winmerge treats each file as one single difference. I've tried reintroducing linebreaks with regular expressions without it helping. Any advice?
You need a better text editor (https://notepad-plus-plus.org/) to edit these files in Windows.
Hope you get back to it soon, enjoyed this mod the most!
This looks quite cool. I'll try the mod.
One thing to mention is that it is not entirely clear which changes the mod includes as some of the changes stated in the first post (e.g. aquatic mounts, tannable intestines) were reverted. Can you edit the first post or put an updated list of what this mod includes?
I've mostly finished the next big version. Things should be fairly stable for a while after that. The poll seems to be tilting pretty clearly in favor of keeping the renamed leather so I've already fixed animal person leather missing the "hide" noun issue and, while I was at it, I also brought back scale leather throughout. Both were done with as few raw changes as possible.Human hide? You may use words "anthropoderma" (straight, but sounds very bad), "nabrock" (sounds better) or "scalp" (sounds the best, but IRL has a little different use). Goblin wear +elf scalp bracelet+ will be incredible!
The changes to humanoids stealing things doesn't appear to be in the current version of Revised? I don't know, but that's one less thing to test.
There's still a to-do list for the next version. Not exhaustive and in no particular order:
finally sort out the plant files. I feel like Button did a lot of wonderful work in there that I've never taken the time to properly understand or appreciate. I want to either understand or revert it all.
talk to Sver about all the lingering combat-affecting changes and sort it all out. Revised still contains quite a few things from DF Combat Reworked, now's the time to sort out why I'm doing it and if it's still worth it without the rest of that mod. I'm thinking things like toughened sinew, skin, wood, leather, silk, chitin, etc...I'm also re-thinking the Coherent Weapons changes I'm currently making to the weapon files.
sort out elves. Tough or vanilla.
Human hide? You may use words "anthropoderma" (straight, but sounds very bad), "nabrock" (sounds better) or "scalp" (sounds the best, but IRL has a little different use). Goblin wear +elf scalp bracelet+ will be incredible!
For small items like jewelry "scalp" sounds very good, when trophies are not big items (like coat of human "scalp"). But, as I know, trophies are only jewelry and non-trophies prevented by INTELLIGENT tag.Human hide? You may use words "anthropoderma" (straight, but sounds very bad), "nabrock" (sounds better) or "scalp" (sounds the best, but IRL has a little different use). Goblin wear +elf scalp bracelet+ will be incredible!
Good suggestions! Unfortunately both 'anthropoderma' and 'nabrock/nabrok' are too esoteric for my tastes, and 'scalp' sounds like the item's literally just made of head/face skin, which isn't true.
Hello again! I just commented on your tileset thread earlier today. As I mentioned there, I've recently started playing again and I'm in the process of getting everything set up how I used to have it. I was reading descriptions in-game earlier and realized that I was missing this mod. To my surprise, I just discovered you were the creator of this.
I just wanted to let you know that I'm really looking forward to your new v0.47 update. In my opinion, this mod is essential and makes the game so much more pleasant to read. I really wish Toady would just integrate these changes into the vanilla game.
The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280
It can be worked around somewhat, by using the SKILL_LEARN_RATE token instead. As far as I could observe, it works on adventurers.
I've just added some Comments (some just personal opinion) and my Modders Knowledge to some scenarios. I didn't answer it all, as some of the points are points only a mod's author/visionary (I believe) should be the one to have the say in.
I've already reverted elves to vanilla.
I've already gone through the material template file with a massive banhammer. I quite like Sver's work but there's some pretty significant differences between Revised and DF Combat Reworked already and I don't want to try to support these changes (balance-wise) independently.
The banhammer will fall next on the plant files. I'm a little obsessive about Revised (if it wasn't obvious already) and I'm not confident I can give the plant files the attention they need going forward. Every creator has different interests, and while Button seemed to quite like modding plants I've never had any interest in it. As with the material template file I won't revert everything blindly, just the non-obvious changes.
I'm also re-thinking the Coherent Weapons changes I'm currently making to the weapon files.
Shouldn't this mod be part of the main game? :)
Material changes, aside from cloth (thread plant, silk, hair), chitin and wood, are all about the force transfer mechanic and work just as well with vanilla weapon velocities.
There are also temperature changes, but those stand on their own: makes it slightly harder to settle freezing/scorching biomes (but also slightly easier to wait out sieges there) and makes creatures catch on fire more realistically (in contrast with how fat is the only thing that burns in vanilla, and fatless creatures become immune to fire). Whether to keep it or not is a matter of taste.
Tissue changes are a different matter. It's probably best not to go as far with pain and bleeding increase on organs as my mod does while keeping vanilla weapons. On the other hand, changes that increase the durability of creatures (such as layer changes in b_detail_plan_default.txt) would work alright.
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It is possible if you stick to only buffing the shear (edge) values, as all training weapons are blunt. That said, it will affect wooden trap components with edged attacks.
I've yet to test out the elves with "fake stone" weapons, but that is on the list. Might be a more elegant alternative to new wood types.
Re: above conversation, i would kill to have these changes put into the vanilla game.
Im so addicted to this mod I cant play any fortress without it, which means I essentially cant use other mods that ever touch vanilla files LOL. it would save me a lot of effort if most of this would just be vanilla! This plus your latest tileset is the first thing I look for after an update.
Really though thank you. The descriptions are wonderful, the slight changes to combat are fantastic, the bugfixes are much needed. how can i go back to forts without feather tree eggs after tasting the forbidden fruit?
Hey there! This is definitely my favorite mod, ever, I would kill to have it added by Toady, but as a developer myself, I can understand how he doesn't want to stray from his own creative vision of the game.
That said, there are some things that kind of irk me and that I wish that I could turn off, like having hyphenated or words with spaces in names, for example. World names especially end up looking really funky with the expanded dictionary in my opinion, though I agree that it definitely adds more variety than just having "The Windy [Blank]" every time!
All in all, love your mod and I wish you all a lovely day/evening!
Your mod makes the latest peridexis installer version crash.
As soon as I removed it, it worked again.
Crashes when embark.
* humanoids are mortal and are gendered, unless they're automatons. (Taffer)
II personally dislike this change of mod not because politics, but just because this don't suits mythology base of this creatures and even not needed for realism reasons. Immortal creatures are real, like pool hydra, also exist female-only lizards, male-only species also exist (mostly, plants, but not only: isogamy of motile cells, androgenesis of silk moth).
(response to removed post removed)Adding nymph will be better than just satiress. Even adding just goat ('forest nanny goat') will be more interesting. Also male harpies didn't exist, but in myths they give birth to some horses. Foul blendec don't exist in mythology at all, but I have better ideas, than just adding the same, but female.* humanoids are mortal and are gendered, unless they're automatons. (Taffer)
I'm Canadian and I'd really like to avoid discussion of politics.II personally dislike this change of mod not because politics, but just because this don't suits mythology base of this creatures and even not needed for realism reasons. Immortal creatures are real, like pool hydra, also exist female-only lizards, male-only species also exist (mostly, plants, but not only: isogamy of motile cells, androgenesis of silk moth).
As I've mentioned earlier in the thread I do enjoy reading my illustrated books on mythology. The problem is that the original myths vary and can be a little vague, and modern fantasy has built on them quite a bit. Kobolds, elves, and dwarves are very different from the original myths and nobody seems to complain about that. I think you've just read different fantasy books than I have, to be honest. I'm very far from the first person to envision alternate-gendered mythological creatures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyress).
4. Nuke the whole idea from orbit and chalk this up as a good idea too annoying to perfect. I'm either nerfing every creature or indirectly buffing some of them. The more I untangle this the more of a balancing nightmare it becomes, unless I stop caring (I care). I'll still fix bite and nail scratch attacks, courtesy of Sver.
FWIW
. . .
I think this is the best option.
Taffer, are you good in syndrome coding? I have interesting idea for Revised.
Bird women and kobolds lay eggs, but cannot hatch them due to a bug. I think, syndrome can remove CAN_LEARN by counter trigger, so they will become sentient back after hatching, but will breed without bug. Sorry, if my English is bad.Taffer, are you good in syndrome coding? I have interesting idea for Revised.
I haven't made one but they don't look difficult. What's the idea?
What controls the leather simplification?
Trying to combine this with Sver's set, His instruction seems to be to just overwrite the revised raws, but this has left me with a million leather types.
Haven't had any issues otherwise so far, other than wheelbarrows being bracelets, graphically speaking, but I'm pretty sure that's a LNP/tileset issue.They use the same symbol by default:
153 Φ Bracelets, wheelbarrows*
Is it still safe to overwrite revised with Sver's if we want his combat balance?
Changed the dynamic of force transfer - I understand the mechanics here less, but as far as I understand relative size differences between parts affects how much force is transferred, making smaller joints much more easily damaged. Perhaps the material changes are enough to fix this.
on: December 10, 2016, 12:44:23
on: April 21, 2012, 22:43:59
Taffer, you're a godsend! By far my favorite release of your mod until now, and I can finally play Dwarf Fortress again! :P
It's a shame about throats, though, hopefully one day Toady will take care of that, just like you said.
Thank you so much for including the expanded dictionary and woolly-limbed dwarves as optional addons, by the way, I really appreciate it.
Cheers!
Great! As always, thank you for the hard work.
A question and a comment.
Is it still safe to overwrite revised with Sver's if we want his combat balance? (or more specifically my brand of Sver's balance :P)
RE: the joint resizing, IIRC and to my understanding making the joints larger primarily did two things:
1) Changed the dynamic of force transfer - I understand the mechanics here less, but as far as I understand relative size differences between parts affects how much force is transferred, making smaller joints much more easily damaged. Perhaps the material changes are enough to fix this.
2) Made joints significantly harder to sever. Smaller joints can be shot off by arrows, and are easier to tear off with bite attacks.
I can't say for certain when I'll be able to return to active modding and incorporate the Revised update, but for now they should be working mostly fine together.
They are enough, technically, but that is much wonkier. To keep it short, larger joint size makes them much more resilient, because DF considers tiny bodyparts to be extremely fragile - in quadratic progression, I dare say. You need over the top material strengths to compensate for that with vanilla joint sizes; larger sizes, on the other hand, allow for some fine tuning to get the result I desire (so that certain weapons still could break joints without getting too much raw power yet).
Joints are also impossible to target manually, and they don't seem to come up in the combat logs that much more often (not that I would mind) from the size increase.
The flying {steel bolt} strikes Dwarf 5 in the mouth, bruising the left cheek's skin through the small steel mail shirt!
The whole method is pretty nifty, even though faces can't be covered by head armor. This means that mouths, noses, eyes, and cheeks are as vulnerable as if you were not wearing anything at all, even if the name of an article of clothing would normally imply that it protects them.
The flying {steel bolt} strikes Dwarf 11 in the mouth and the left cheek is cloven asunder!
The {steel bolt} has lodged firmly in the wound!
LBSTEP is working fine, its UBSTEP that's being buggy. If you make body armor with UBSTEP:MAX but LBSTEP:0, it will still cover the toes. The only difference is that the legs won't be covered (because LBSTEP is 0). Also, the UBSTEP needn't be MAX. It just needs to be high enough to reach the parts in question. You need a UBSTEP>=4 to reach fingers and toes, and a UBSTEP>=2 to reach facial features.
First, may I say this is a seriously excellent mod. It stays true to the vanilla design, but the collection of improvements gives a much better experience. Thank you very much Taffer for putting it together, and to everyone who contributed.
I have noticed one minor weird thing while testing in the arena, which is facial features being protected by mail shirts:
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This seems like it might be similar to the vanilla issue with cloaks protecting toes. Please forgive me if this is actually a known problem-- I found references to it happening with UBSTEP:MAX, but I see that the mod specifically has it at 2 for the neck and shoulders.
The wiki has conflicting information. The graphical armor chart does have the face coloured in for chain mail, but the text says ...
I tried to reproduce without revised with a fresh install from the starter pack, but that does seem to work as expected:
...
Anyway, it doesn't affect my enjoyment at all-- actually I prefer it over all facial features being completely unprotected, since I just pretend it's being partially protected by the helm instead of the shirt-- but thought the report might be helpful.
Edit: I found a relevant bug report describing the vanilla behaviour with UBSTEP: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1821
I really don't understand the description of the algorithm, but sounds to me like this bug is probably causing the issue:
Read you myths? Minotaur wasn't hooved, he had only head of bull and tail of bull, but human legs.What does it matter? There's different interpretations and versions too.
Does this mod nerf the strenght of dwarves in combat somehow? I seem to recall a single squad could easily take on 100 goblins or so, but now it seems all soldiers die shortly after engaging in combat with multiple goblins. Or was that always the case and I just had super trained soldiers? Hmm
Auxiliary file changes for 0.47.05:
creatures
grasshopper gets [VERMIN_GROUNDER]
leopard geckos don't have sticky feet - removed prefstring
beak dogs now have special mottled skin. Their vanilla rainbow skin is pretty weird and never depicted in fanart.
Are there any plans to update this mod and bring it over to the Steam Workshop? I absolutely adore it and hope it doesn't get forgotten. I'd love for the inevitable surge of new players to be able to experience all of the work that has gone into this.
Are there any plans to update this mod and bring it over to the Steam Workshop? I absolutely adore it and hope it doesn't get forgotten. I'd love for the inevitable surge of new players to be able to experience all of the work that has gone into this.
If Taffer is MIA, I plan to port Vanilla-Spice Revised to the Steam workshop - all the features and fixes here plus a handful more that tweak vanilla creatures without affecting their (future) art assets.
Very little changed between now and the last update of 47.04 to 47.05 besides the following on file, so it should probably be fine if carefully transferred without issuing a entirely new release, but of course a new mod publication would be more straightforward.Code: [Select]Auxiliary file changes for 0.47.05:
creatures
grasshopper gets [VERMIN_GROUNDER]
leopard geckos don't have sticky feet - removed prefstring
I've found myself getting back into DF recently due to the Steam release, and I am tickled downright pink to see that a direct descendant of my original Modest Mod is still going strong after all these years. It's really incredible to see all the improvements that youand Button, LargeSnail, Warlord255, Sver, and all the other contributorshave put into it since I retired from the scene.
Keep up the great work!
Hi Taffer,
If you ever see this I have ported all of your creature descriptions and some of your edits :) I plan on porting more of the features as modular mods.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3143767330
If you ever want to take over just let me know. Also anyone else feel free to work off this base. Porting to steam workshop is a huge pain.