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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vactor on February 14, 2011, 09:21:30 pm

Title: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 14, 2011, 09:21:30 pm
Tomorrow is going to be in all likely hood the worst day of work i've ever had, and I need to vent about it preemptively.

I work for the Wisconsin State Senate Sergeant at Arms' office, and tomorrow is the Joint Finance Committee's public hearing on a new bill introduced by our new Governor.

This is a budget repair bill that is going to be giving all state employees a 9% pay cut, and effectively dissolving the state worker's union.  In his rhetoric, he is declaring that the only alternative to this is to boot 200,000 children from their health coverage.  Needless to say, a lot of people are extremely upset about this.  The Wisconsin Capitol building was choked with protesters today, and there were no actions being taken by anyone.  Phones have been ringing non-stop in legislator's offices, and the majority party, which holds both houses and the governor's office had to caucus late into the night to try to get their own members on board with it.

In an effort to try to reduce the impact of the protest on the proceedings of the hearing, the committee has decided to restrict access to the hearing room, so that only 100 members of the public are allowed in at any one time.  This runs counter to the normal free hearings where people are allowed to enter, and leave due to overcrowding at their discretion.  This has created a situation where people waiting in line to speak will be registered and then told that they need to go to a room across the Capitol to watch the proceedings.  This creates a problem as then they cannot be in the room when they are called on to speak.  Even if they do a "on deck, in the hole" system, the people would have to work their way back to the front of the line to get back in.  A hearing like this will have anywhere from 500-1000 people register.

I am going to be the guy at the door.  The one who helps them register, and then informs them that they cannot enter the room.  I'll have to try to explain to them that they need to go to some other room, and wait until their turn is up, then come back and see if there is room.  This also will put me in the situation where 20 people will leave the hearing room, and i'll have to tell the next 20 people that they can't go in so that there is room if anyone who is registered ahead of them needs to get in. 

This is a catch 22, where I'm stuck at the point where 1000 angry people are going to converge.  And it'll be a 16-20+ hour day.

I'm still glad i've got a job though.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Qloos on February 15, 2011, 01:17:30 am
Be loud and assertive but neutral and diplomatic at the same time.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Retro on February 15, 2011, 06:50:09 am
Jesus.

Bring a flask, dude.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Farseer on February 15, 2011, 08:07:12 am
I read it and then I was like "Why is a small South American woman working as a doorguard? ???"

Then I noticed it was Vactor and not Vector. :p
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Vactor on February 15, 2011, 08:08:47 am
Jesus.

Bring a flask, dude.

this was one of the first things I asked my boss.

I'm on my way, going to stop by and vote before work.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Vector on February 15, 2011, 05:31:31 pm
I read it and then I was like "Why is a small South American woman working as a doorguard? ???"

Then I noticed it was Vactor and not Vector. :p

Vactor is not Vester is not Vector.

I, Vector, am the math nerd (small, female, but not a Pacific Islander).
Vester is the Filipina.
Vactor is the OP.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Tellemurius on February 15, 2011, 05:36:39 pm
yea, i was scratching my head when i read the filipina part cause "i thought she was euro-descendant".



t
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Zrk2 on February 15, 2011, 07:00:15 pm
yea, i was scratching my head when i read the filipina part cause "i thought she was euro-descendant".



t

Isn't that an assumption in the internet? Like everyone (supposedly *Looks at Vector*) is a guy on the internet?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Tellemurius on February 15, 2011, 07:08:03 pm
well she has said some info on her background.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Vector on February 15, 2011, 07:19:08 pm
There's also photos of me, yadda yadda... where the fuck else would I get a girl with a bunch of math textbooks and really long hair on short notice.

Geez, I'm kind of tired of having to "prove" my gender, though.  I'm a chick.  Big honking deal.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Tellemurius on February 15, 2011, 07:20:01 pm
hey its cool that you're a chick, keeps reminding me that its not a total sausagefest in here XD
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Zrk2 on February 15, 2011, 09:02:22 pm
There's also photos of me, yadda yadda... where the fuck else would I get a girl with a bunch of math textbooks and really long hair on short notice.

Geez, I'm kind of tired of having to "prove" my gender, though.  I'm a chick.  Big honking deal.

... the *look* was more of a please don't stab me then a I don't believe you. I'm not that much of an asshole.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Argembarger on February 16, 2011, 10:46:47 am
Off-topic topic is off-topic.

Damn, Vactor. I can't even imagine...

But yes, you still have a job. That sounds like it would make a somewhat decent mantra to get through that day.

You just know plenty of people are going to assume that you have some control over the situation and hate you for it.

Good luck. Tell us how it goes. I know I would definitely need to vent if it was me in your shoes.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Zangi on February 16, 2011, 12:54:01 pm
Whoever is organizing your stuffs is incompetent or willingly making it hard for people to voice their opinionscomplaints. 
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Vactor on February 16, 2011, 02:20:38 pm
Just got home,

It was better than I expected, it was worse than I expected.

To give you some perspective, I expected 1,000 people, and we got around 10,000

The day started off well, with people rather cheery and polite as we instructed them how to line up.  People kept it together as we sent them back to the overflow room. When, late in the afternoon we were only getting to the people that had signed in 20-30 minutes after sign ins started people started to get ugly.  We had an attempted rush on the door when one of the Senators declared that there were over 30 empty seats in the room. (a bit of an exaggeration, we were bringing people over from overflow as seats opened up.

This was about the time that suspicion set in, and i became "the man" I was then the guy trying to mislead them into complacency as I tried to explain the system that we were using to make sure that people would be in the room when their name was called.  We would still get the odd person come up and sincerely thank us for our work, but the crowd was getting ugly. 

I finally managed to talk down the mob, and get them to return to the overflow.  We continued registering on into the night, with more and more people coming as they got off of work.  After having spent the entire morning trying to assure people that we were not trying to squelch them, the co-chairs had us close off registration at 9pm last night, in front of a 200 person line.

The crowd immediately erupted, and as minority party senators realized what was going on, the proceedings ground to a halt, and the people inside the room erupted.  One minority party member went out and assured the crowd that they would get to speak, to many cheers.  However we were at the moment under the rule of the co-chairs and could only do as they instructed us.  Leaving us in a position where people had been told by a Senator that they could register, while we had not been instructed to register anyone.  My co-workers in the overflow room were completely in the dark as to what was going on at the door to the hearing room, and as things started to boil over, I headed over and did my best to give people frank answers to calm them down.  Needless to say this was the worst part of the night, a door panel got kicked in, there was chanting and anger.  Our staff was briefly put into emergency mode.

The people who had been turned away ended up congregating in the rotunda of the capitol, where they eventually camped out overnight.  Around midnight the people who were testifying had signed up at about noon.  Others continued to trickle into the hearing room and testify until 3:00 AM, when the committee adjourned the hearing while there were still people who were waiting to testify, something i've never seen happen, and had spent most of the day assuring suspicious people wouldn't happen.

The members of the minority party as a reaction to this decided to hold an impromptu listening session where they would stay and continue to listen to those who wished to testify.  They maintained the rules of 2 minutes per person, and had us staff that session for them, we quickly signed up an additonal 150-200 people  This lasted all night, until 8:30 this morning, when they had to leave the room that they were using due to it having a scheduled event, at which point they recessed and moved to an assembly room.  This was also shortly after the capitol doors unlocked for the morning, allowing in an entire new stream of people who wished to testify.  By about 10:00 am we had a line back up to around 200 people waiting to testify.  I kept working the room, and ran a few more errands before heading home.


here's a relevant news article to those interested:
http://www.channel3000.com/politics/26881932/detail.html (http://www.channel3000.com/politics/26881932/detail.html)

Also, if anyone has any questions they'd like to ask of "the man" in the government, ask away.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Kashyyk on February 16, 2011, 02:28:49 pm
...How have you not keeled over?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Nadaka on February 16, 2011, 05:31:31 pm
...How have you not keeled over?

Caffeine is a wonder drug. With enough Caffeine, vitamin b & c you can stay physically active for a several days strait. When everything starts to echo, the walls get all wiggly and the shadows start looking at you funny, it is time to accept that you should not be working 60 hours a week during finals crunch, lay down for a couple days and tell your boss that if you are not fired, you quit.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2011, 06:26:44 pm
I've covered a few city meetings before. This reminds me of the school board hearing to close a low income school and redistribute the student population. There were only about 20 people in the overflow room, and probably no more than 100 in the hearing room though.

I'll be interested to hear how this turns out. We so often let legislative things pass us by as voters, it's fascinating to watch democracy actually happen.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Vactor on February 16, 2011, 07:31:12 pm
another update, I just woke up, and it sounds like stuff is getting postponed into tonight, and the capitol is still filled with protesters, so I'm taking a shower and heading back in.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: freeformschooler on February 16, 2011, 11:31:40 pm
Thank you for being the good, honest person that people believe is working against them all, as a tool for the greater evil. Both of my parents have jobs that consist of this every day, and I know how hard it can be.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 17, 2011, 02:36:35 am
I'm back home, I was again at the door to the Joint Finance Committee's hearing.  This was the executive session, which is the time when members of the committee debate each other, and offer and adopt amendments to the bill.  The public is allowed in to watch, but do not participate in the proceedings like they did in the public hearing.  I was at the door again.  A protest was staged outside the doors, with drums and musical instruments.  Lots of chanting and shouting, and one particular guy with a megaphone who was trying to incite the police officers that were assisting me.  At one point he started talking about how he, and everyone else was going to jail tonight, citing his years of activism (he looked to be about 20-25yr).  The rest of the crowd booed him down and took away his megaphone, and followed up declaring that no one was going to jail tonight, which is quite true, during the last 3 days of protests, there have been no arrests, which even in tame protests, there are people who decide to get violent or destructive.

For those of you who might be interested in the process, the bill was just passed out of the Joint Finance Committee, with an omnibus amendment that mostly added corrections to other bills that have already been passed this session.  Only a handful were amending the bill itself, with the primary addition being that limited term employees will not have their access to health and retirement benefits completely revoked.

There was an amendment offered by the minority to remove the language from the bill that will deny collective bargaining (unionizing) rights to state employees.  This amendment was not adopted.

The next step is the Senate, which will be called to order tomorrow.

Once again I'm looking at work tomorrow.

We are in session, which is just off the rotunda, which is currently full of protesters sleeping on the floor.  It is going to be deafeningly loud, and we are going to have a very hard time keeping the public from physically disrupting the session.  Luckily I probably won't be doing the door tomorrow, as I usually run the sound board for the Senator's mics.  I understand we're getting national and international press for what's going on here, so you may be hearing about this if you follow the news.

I also submitted a request to move this to general discussion, as it has become less of a life advice thread.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Rilder on February 17, 2011, 04:00:26 am
My state is full of binge drinkers and cheese eaters, if you need to distract us Wisconsinites just lay out booze and cheese.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on February 17, 2011, 05:02:47 am
I wish you had put this in General Discussion in the first place, I didn't even notice.  But anyway, holy crap, I forgot you worked in the Wisconsin capitol.  It's great to have a front-line perspective.

The debate has made national news, but only in limited circles.  Since Wisconsin basically got to be the first legislature to grab this year's political buzz of hammering government workers to squeeze blood from a stone, this will almost certainly set the tenor of the debate elsewhere.  It's good to hear there's so many people interested, especially public-worker unions of all stripes and the people who deal with them (I understand there was a pretty big mob of students, since all the schools were closed).
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 17, 2011, 08:28:23 am
back into the beast, I feel bad i'm omitting a lot of the interesting little parts of the story, but I just don't have the time to sit down and write it up any more than I already am.  I've heard Ed Schultz will be coming to the Capitol today.

Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Lord Shonus on February 17, 2011, 08:57:36 am
Yeah, Kasich is pushing that crap in Ohio. Hard to be surprise by a guy who lied his way into office so blatantly.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: olemars on February 17, 2011, 09:29:59 am
Not enough teargas and rubber coated bullets.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: GlyphGryph on February 17, 2011, 11:02:44 am
Interesting hearing things from the front lines. Looking forward to more updates.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Retro on February 17, 2011, 03:57:05 pm
Interesting hearing things from the front lines. Looking forward to more updates.
Aye, this.

Concurred.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on February 17, 2011, 07:49:42 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

this is the first I have seen about this other than this thread.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Realmfighter on February 17, 2011, 08:01:00 pm
Quote
In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.

There is no way in fuck that what this man is doing is legal.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 17, 2011, 08:39:34 pm
Back home.

Those of you who read the article posted earlier would already know this, but today the minority party senators did not attend session, This left the senate one vote short of having a quorum for a budget bill, which is 3/5ths.  On non-fiscal bills a simple majority is required.  We were under a call of the house, which is a rule, where if 5 senators desire, they can shut down the proceedings until all Senators have been brought to the floor, no Senators may leave the Senate until all 33 Senators are present.  This lasted until about 4:00ish, when the Senators closed the session down and were escorted out of the building.

I did end up doing the door again, which while quite exhausting and more chaotic was much easier than staffing the hearings over the last few days.  Since only legislators and staff (and press) are allowed inside the Senate, I spent the day checking press credentials and staff ids.  A handful of people would come up and ask questions, and quite a few people got a bit of a civics lecture from me, explaining some of the complexities of how the Senate conducts business.

It did get a bit ugly in the late morning when protesters attempted to congest the entrance to the Senate to prevent Senators from arriving on the floor.  Their attempts were slightly misguided, and were mostly directed at the completely wrong people.  At one point I did lean across my table and told people the man they were chanting at was a non-partisan committee clerk.  They later staged a sit-in in various hallways to try to prevent us from moving people around the building.  This was only mildly successful, as our capitol is a bit of a maze, and we all work there, and know how to get around.

Some of my co-workers had some bad encounters with protesters who, not knowing who we are and what we do, saw people dressed in blazers and ties, and assumed they were their opposition.  One girl got shaken, and a guy got hit, i'm not sure how badly.  We started having our pages take off their blazers and ties when they left the floor.

By late afternoon this had calmed down a bit, and the area in front of the Senate became deserted once the session was postponed, as the protesters made their way back into the rotunda.

I had a ton of cameras pointed toward me throughout the day, stills and video, i'm not sure if people just find me an interesting picture, or if they were trying to keep me in line by recording me, one of my co-workers yesterday had a camera shoved in his face as he was giving a lady directions, and completely disarmed the recorder with his pleasant helpfulness when they demanded to know what he had just told her.  The biggest thing I've noticed is that people have some incredible misconceptions of government.

So once again, I'm back to work tomorrow.  The protesters are still in the building, and a group of senators are still in another state.  I don't know what will happen tomorrow, I only hope people continue to keep their cool.  I think out of the 25,000 protesters today, there were 9 citations issued, which is the first day there were any.

I will admit I shuddered when I saw a single 10-12 year old strolling around with a guy fawkes mask.

edit: my boss made the new york times, the hilarious part is that we constantly tease him because he is almost always sweating, regardless of the temp.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us/18wisconsin.html?_r=1&ref=politics (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us/18wisconsin.html?_r=1&ref=politics)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on February 17, 2011, 09:27:33 pm
Might I suggest bringing a bullhorn for crowd control?  And maybe some big obvious "STAFF" badges to avoid unpleasant confusion.  In all seriousness, I'm curious what the law-enforcement presence looked like and did, given that I've heard the police officers union joined the protesters.  Or maybe didn't since they were among the only public employee unions not facing any legislation.  Heck, maybe you can clear that up; did you see them there?

Likewise, any word about the legal actions taken to force those 14 Democrats back into the Senate?  Since they're out of the state, and the state constitution doesn't actually describe any provision for how they can be compelled to go back to work, I bet the Sergeant at Arms is pulling his hair right now trying to answer questions.  AH, upon reading the article, the Sergeant at Arms is your boss.  Damn, what a sorry job at a time like this.

I will admit I shuddered when I saw a single 10-12 year old strolling around with a guy fawkes mask.

Oh Fuck, the Internet is here.  And it's getting younger?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on February 17, 2011, 09:28:57 pm
Oh man.

These are really interesting reads, thank you for these posts.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 17, 2011, 10:01:25 pm
Might I suggest bringing a bullhorn for crowd control?  And maybe some big obvious "STAFF" badges to avoid unpleasant confusion.  In all seriousness, I'm curious what the law-enforcement presence looked like and did, given that I've heard the police officers union joined the protesters.  Or maybe didn't since they were among the only public employee unions not facing any legislation.  Heck, maybe you can clear that up; did you see them there?

Likewise, any word about the legal actions taken to force those 14 Democrats back into the Senate?  Since they're out of the state, and the state constitution doesn't actually describe any provision for how they can be compelled to go back to work, I bet the Sergeant at Arms is pulling his hair right now trying to answer questions.

I will admit I shuddered when I saw a single 10-12 year old strolling around with a guy fawkes mask.

Oh Fuck, the Internet is here.  And it's getting younger?



We do wear sgt at arms name plates, but people were getting to the point where they wanted to express their anger to anybody they could, I heard of one staffer being chewed out, while sobbing that her senator was one of the opponents to the bill.  As far as law enforcement, we've had officers from just about every type of jurisdiction assisting us throughout this week.  There are no police in the state that have jurisdiction over the senate floor, as that is our domain, free from control by the governor.  So they were pretty much just there to do what I asked them to, give the doors a bit more of a presence, and be prepared to make sure nobody gets hurt if things turn ugly.

It was a really unique situation the other day during the executive session after the rabble rouser i mentioned earlier was trying to get people to charge the door, I had two state troopers, a pair of sheriff's deputies, a game warden and a madison police officer all hanging out to make sure I could do my job.  So generally speaking, the police have been doing a great job working with us in a non-protest capacity.

As far as participating in the protest, today is the first day that I heard of police unions joining in the protest, as they arrived today with bottled water and trays full of hotdogs for the other protesters.  This is especially noteworthy, as the police and firefighters were intentionally omitted from the benefit and unionizing rights cut.  The firefighters union had been showing up for days to great applause for their solidarity with the other unions, and now the police union has joined in.  The on duty officers that are assisting us are not participating, and remain impartial and have been directed to show extreme permissiveness with the protest.

As to the possible solutions to this stalemate, i'm sure the legal minds of the state of Wisconsin are puzzling through this as we speak, but to my knowledge, our office is not equipped to make a foray into another state to retrieve the senators, and probably would be considered outside of our jurisdiction.  The state patrol, which has been called upon in the past to detain fleeing senators definitely do not have jurisdiction.  It may be possible for the governor of the host state to send their own police force to eject them from the state, but it would be unlikely that one friendly to their cause would do so.  There is no way for federal authorities to get involved, as the senators haven't committed a crime, so a federal judge would not be able to issue a warrant for their arrest. 

As to the bull horn, it would probably not be keeping with the decorum of the senate to use one, and we seem to be keeping things in order through calm helpfulness and patience.  The issues with pages being accosted happened on other floors where we don't have a static presence.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on February 17, 2011, 10:16:09 pm
Well, I see two possibilities to the stalemate legality.  Either the state in question could have them extradited back to Wisconsin like you said, and of course nobody knows where they are yet, and they almost certainly decided to hole up somewhere safe from just that possibility.

The other conspiratorial answer I can see is that the governor could find some pliant law enforcement, and just have them go detain and return the Senators anyway, jurisdiction be damned.  The Senate could be brought back in session and hold votes, and the requisite false-arrest and so forth charges would be months and years down the road.  That said, it sounds pretty ridiculous.

I do have to add that I find it weird how everyone is saying this is totally unprecedented, of a state legislature failing to meet quorum because the opposition left.  The Democrats in the Texas state house did the same thing like ten years ago, but they didn't do it in secret.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on February 17, 2011, 11:35:18 pm
As to the bull horn, it would probably not be keeping with the decorum of the senate to use one, and we seem to be keeping things in order through calm helpfulness and patience.  The issues with pages being accosted happened on other floors where we don't have a static presence.

...

Decorum in politics? We gave up on that a long time ago in Canada. Our MPs routinely yell at each other in the House of Commons.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Retro on February 17, 2011, 11:43:20 pm
As to the bull horn, it would probably not be keeping with the decorum of the senate to use one, and we seem to be keeping things in order through calm helpfulness and patience.  The issues with pages being accosted happened on other floors where we don't have a static presence.

...

Decorum in politics? We gave up on that a long time ago in Canada. Our MPs routinely yell at each other in the House of Commons.

They don't really actually have positions on things any more. Election season is just a bunch of baseless and totally irrelevant-to-any-political-issue-whatsoever mudslinging. It's... really embarrassing.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Burnt Pies on February 17, 2011, 11:58:29 pm
England's house of Commons frequently sounds like a classroom full of 12 year olds. It's almost funny hearing how damn rude and noisy they are.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on February 18, 2011, 12:14:07 am
Well in UK model parliamentary systems, the actual members of government dont matter very much since the power lies with the majority party.  If we adopted the Canadian rules of legislature, I think it would take about 5 minutes for American politicians to start dueling in the Senate.  The only thing holding them back right now is the prospect that with the right shake of the dice they might get to be the one sitting in the coveted tie breaker vote chair next congress and they dont want to fuck that up by acting as petty and worthless as they are.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 18, 2011, 05:52:17 pm
Today was slightly calmer for us, the missing senators were still absent, and the Assembly (lower house) was in session taking up their own version of the bill.

We withdrew our presence almost entirely into the chambers, and capitol police blocked off the hallway in front of the entrance to the senate, to prevent the congestion that occurred yesterday.

The Senate came to order, and did not have a quorum to pass the bill, and again went to call of the house.  For a while they did not want the Sergeant at Arms to leave the building and were going to send me to the minority leaders house with a state trooper.  Eventually because of the press attention, they decided to have my boss go instead.  Despite the suspicions of the majority party, the Senator was not home.  They stood informal for most of the day before adjourning at about 1:30 this afternoon.

Even if the Minority leader had been home, the law was very vauge, saying only that the Senators may be compelled to return by the Sergeant at Arms. 


The state patrol, which has been called upon in the past to detain fleeing senators

Never thought I'd read this phrase in nonfiction.

something like this has happened in the US senate before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum)

As to the decorum of the Senate, our Assembly is a more rowdy house, but the Senate has rather strict rules of decorum, and a slow enough turn over rate that they are pretty commonly adhered to.  All speech and debate is addressed to the president of the senate, they do not refer to each other by name, only by district number (i.e. gentleman from the 5th)  Men must wear a jacket, and they are not allowed to impugn the integrity of another member of the Senate.

I think it is unprecedented in the Wisconsin Legislature, there has always been a lot of legislative courtesy and respectful tradition.  I'm very curious what the rest of this biennium will hold as far as how the Senators will treat one another, and in the future, if control flips.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: olemars on February 18, 2011, 06:19:54 pm
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2695/cspan2sgtatarms.png)

That was last year. They were passing something important and all the whitehaired old men went to have a nap.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 19, 2011, 12:16:18 am
Additional Drama unfolded in the Assembly this evening:

http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759 (http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759)

I would recommend watching "Assembly Floor Session (Part 4)"  If you think the first part is dramatic, once they stand informal skip ahead until about 14:30 when they return to order.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on February 19, 2011, 12:25:27 am
'You might think that since you've been elected to the legislature you can do what you damn well please, BUT YOU CAN'T!' *Champion*
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 19, 2011, 12:38:38 am
Additional Drama unfolded in the Assembly this evening:

http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759 (http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759)

I would recommend watching "Assembly Floor Session (Part 4)"  If you think the first part is dramatic, once they stand informal skip ahead until about 14:30 when they return to order.

To give you guys some context of what was going on, a bill needs to be given 3 readings before being voted upon. The first reading is given when it is assigned to committee, the second when it is brought to the floor.  At this point it is in the amendable stage, where amendments may be offered, debated, and can end up tabled, adopted, or rejected.  There were three amendments before the Assembly.  Amendments 1, 2, and 3. The Assembly was called to order prior to its scheduled time, they adopted their friendly amendment 1, and ignored amendments 2 and 3.  They suspended their rules in order to engross the bill, and not give it its first or second reading, and go right to the third.  They also avoided recognizing the minority members who were standing to be recognized and who were objecting to the unanimous consent request. 

The Assembly normally takes up the bill that is passed out of the Senate, but has moved ahead with its own bill.

Once the bill is given its 3rd reading there can be no more amendments. The bill must be voted on, which was the immediate next step once the relating clause was read by the chief clerk.  Its interesting that you can see someone giving the speaker the hurry up signal earlier just before Rep. Hintz ran onto the floor, as the speaker then tries to play it down that it was an honest mistake, and that he thought they wouldn't show up and wanted to get on with things. 

I've tried to present this whole affair as neutrally as I present it to people when i'm working, but without adherence to its rules, there is no Assembly, the government that we have is predicated on the respect of, and adherence to the rules of governing.  A committee may be run at the discretion of a chair, but a floor session is not undertaken at the pleasure of the speaker. 

Part of what is so upsetting about what you see here is knowing what is actually happening, it seems like some simple procedural things, but they were seconds away from passing this bill before they stopped, and had steamrolled through the actual deliberative parts of the debate.

Adjournment was probably a good idea though, as there were 35,000 protesters outside that room.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow.
Post by: Aklyon on February 19, 2011, 01:03:12 am
I read it and then I was like "Why is a small South American woman working as a doorguard? ???"

Then I noticed it was Vactor and not Vector. :p

Vactor is not Vester is not Vector.

I, Vector, am the math nerd (small, female, but not a Pacific Islander).
Vester is the Filipina.
Vactor is the OP.
Why does Bay12 have so many similar named people?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vector on February 19, 2011, 01:06:45 am
No clue.


By the way, Vactor, thanks for the coverage--and sorry for the derail.  It's really awesome to get to hear about these sorts of things straight from the source.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 22, 2011, 07:45:20 pm
So not much new has happened, the Senate was unable to act due to the lack of quorum, but they have started slating up bills that they want to pass in the absence of the quorum busters, this included an executive session on a voter ID bill, in which the chair of the committee refused to allow a Senator who had called in to the committeee (a common practice when not in the capitol) to ask questions or vote, even though she allowed him to answer the roll call, and had been recorded as present.

The protest continues, and the Assembly is on the floor now with at least 200 amendments before them.

Indiana legislators, finding themselves in the same situation have fled their state as well.

The Daily Show picked up coverage of the situation, and I happened to be in a clip they used from one of the local news affilates:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you watch the episode from last night (feb 21) its about 4 1/2 minutes in.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on February 22, 2011, 07:55:57 pm
Wow, awesome.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on February 22, 2011, 08:00:47 pm
I am left a little speechless by that last update. Its sad to hear first hand that the republicans really are willing to break the rules to get their way rather than just playing dirty tricks within the rules.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 22, 2011, 08:14:09 pm
I am left a little speechless by that last update. Its sad to hear first hand that the republicans really are willing to break the rules to get their way rather than just playing dirty tricks within the rules.

Committees are a bit different than floor sessions, as they are run at the discretion of the chairperson.  The manner they are run are based mostly on tradition and legislative courtesy.  A chair can run their committee in whatever way they see fit, and can elect to not entertain motions or amendments, or to recommend a bill without the committee voting at it at all (i think).  Committees are created by the legislature to look into a particular issue on behalf of the entire body, and its execution is entrusted to the chair.

While she didn't break a rule, she did break with precedent.  I do think that today we lost a little bit of what makes our Senate special.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Heliman on February 23, 2011, 12:13:39 am
Additional Drama unfolded in the Assembly this evening:

http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759 (http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759)

I would recommend watching "Assembly Floor Session (Part 4)"  If you think the first part is dramatic, once they stand informal skip ahead until about 14:30 when they return to order.

Wow, I'm impressed by Hintz. That speech of his could singe the hair off eyebrows.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Flaede on February 23, 2011, 02:23:41 am
I was telling someone today how eclectic the DF forum is, and how we often get pretty thoughtful threads going.

...then I went looking for this thread. Not that I had seen it before or anything, I just knew it had to exits.
Thank you for the "on the ground" posts.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Heron TSG on February 23, 2011, 08:51:08 am
Wow, I've been reading the news about this and I must say, the Democratic party as a whole is my hero right now. They're fighting for the rights of the people, even against nigh-unstoppable opposition. It's really dramatic to watch.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on February 25, 2011, 11:30:35 am
Things are not going well on this front. The republicans launched a sneak attack and got it through assembly. The only thing stopping them now is the democrats in absentia, and they have mobilized the state troopers to find them.

I don't know the specific language of the bill, but is it possible that the courts could find it unconstitutional? Of course that would take years or decades.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on February 25, 2011, 11:43:09 am
Nice to see some politicians doing their job, keep at it Democrats  :)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: GlyphGryph on February 25, 2011, 12:16:44 pm
Do note that one this sort of thing has been going on for a long time.

I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who jumped out a second story window and attempted to flee the estate in an attempt to avoid quorum?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: alway on February 25, 2011, 12:21:26 pm
Yep. http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2011/02/as-a-state-legislator-lincoln-tried-to-play-the-run-away-game-too.html
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: lumin on February 25, 2011, 01:50:36 pm
Do note that one this sort of thing has been going on for a long time.

I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who jumped out a second story window and attempted to flee the estate in an attempt to avoid quorum?

Wait, the "Progessive" party is copying a guy's actions who lived over a hundred years ago?  Huh...
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on February 25, 2011, 02:11:20 pm
Do note that one this sort of thing has been going on for a long time.

I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who jumped out a second story window and attempted to flee the estate in an attempt to avoid quorum?

Wait, the "Progessive" party is copying a guy's actions who lived over a hundred years ago?  Huh...

Its that or allow the regressives to steamroll over them with dirty tricks, bible thumpin' and appeals to irrationalism on the road to eliminate the middle class and return to the glorious days of master and serf.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 25, 2011, 03:38:07 pm
I finally got some time away from work again, this week has been pretty non-stop for me, though not much actually happened on the Senate floor.

Things are not going well on this front. The republicans launched a sneak attack and got it through assembly. The only thing stopping them now is the democrats in absentia, and they have mobilized the state troopers to find them.

I don't know the specific language of the bill, but is it possible that the courts could find it unconstitutional? Of course that would take years or decades.

On the first point, the press has overstated the efforts underway to retrieve the missing Senators.  Members of our staff are the ones visiting the homes, escorted by state troopers to avoid jurisdictional issues.  The only effort is to see if they are home, and if they are, to tell them that there is a call of the house, and ask if they are willing to return to the Senate.  This was done once (and in a single instance twice) to just a handful of Senators' homes, the state patrol is not actively searching for them.  The Senate seems to feel that it does not have the authority to forcibly return Senators to the Capitol, and is at this point simply trying to contact the missing Senators.  It will be left up to them when to return.

There has been talk of closing the building to protesters overnight, but today the police union sent a letter to the governor requesting the building be left open, and called upon its members to join in the protest, including the sleep-in.  They also retracted their endorsement of Governor Walker.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on February 25, 2011, 03:40:50 pm
Woah, we never have anything near this interesting in Canada. Are you any closer to a resolution?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on February 25, 2011, 03:51:11 pm
Not at all closer to a resolution, both sides seem to have put themselves into positions that they cannot get out of.

One of the issues is our Governor's sweeping veto rights.  The line-item veto allows the Governor to strike out any portion of a law while signing the bill.  This makes it so there can be no compromise bill that includes the language limiting collective bargaining.  One Senator from the majority party has an amendment drafted that would sunset (end) the collective bargaining restrictions in 2013, however if passed, the Governor would be able to remove any said limitation.  There will also be a great amount of mistrust of any deal after the governor revealed that he would only speak to the missing senators as a way of tricking them into being present at the Capitol in order to obtain the needed quorum.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on February 25, 2011, 03:57:35 pm
Well, that's really screwed up, good luck!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Retro on February 25, 2011, 03:59:08 pm
Woah, we never have anything near this interesting in Canada.

Seriously.

Vactor, have you heard to prank call on Gov. Walker? Someone pretended to be Dave Koch and Walker just started gushing about all the stuff they're doing to rile up the protesters and crush the unions however they can. If you haven't, there's a link to it in its own thread in GD here somewhere. One sec.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78146.0 <-- there's two youtube clips, both 10m each
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on February 25, 2011, 04:02:02 pm
I would assume so, since he mentioned the trick to achieve quorum that was spelled out in that call.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on February 25, 2011, 04:04:14 pm
They also retracted their endorsement of Governor Walker.

It took them that long?  They seemed pretty solidly against the guy most of the last week or two.


Vactor, have you heard to prank call on Gov. Walker?
There will also be a great amount of mistrust of any deal after the governor revealed that he would only speak to the missing senators as a way of tricking them into being present at the Capitol in order to obtain the needed quorum.

Sounds like it, yeah.  I bet there's boomboxes playing that call round the clock somewhere on the capital.  I don't really know what to make of the whole thing myself, but I'm sure there's been a lot of pissed off people the past couple days.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on February 25, 2011, 04:11:34 pm
One of the fourteen senators to flee wisconsin asked for Gov. Walker to resign from office.

Sometimes I wish I were older, I would drive down to Columbus myself if I could and participate there.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Flaede on March 01, 2011, 10:28:44 pm
Is this thread dead? Because there's still stuff going on about this, and I haven't been able to find another thread about it other than the one specifically a about the 'prank call'.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 01, 2011, 10:44:07 pm
I suspect Vactor has been a little too preoccupied with his actual job to do much talking about it.  There hasn't been a ton of activity over the weekend though, except for the governor supposedly barring people from reentering the capitol building.  And requiring such stringent ID that a couple House members couldn't get in for a few hours.

Good news everyone, Anonymous is on the case (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108138-Anonymous-Uncovers-Corruption-in-Wisconsin-Labor-Dispute), according to The Escapist, your number one source of news on the Wisconsin state legislature.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nikov on March 01, 2011, 11:00:40 pm
Quote from: The Escapist
Enter Anonymous. The hacker group discovered a little-noticed clause in the bill proposed by Walker which would allow the state to sell its utilities to anyone it chose, at any price, without the public even being notified. This clause would allow companies like Koch Industries to purchase publicly owned utility plants, and Anonymous believes this is the reason that Koch-funded "grassroots" organizations like Americans For Prosperity, Club for Growth and Citizens United are supporting Walker's plan to rid the unions of their collective power.

So the grand scheme is to allow Wisconsin to sell the Koch brothers state-owned power plants for pennies on the dollar?

It all makes perfect sense now. I renounce regressivism forever.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 02, 2011, 12:01:58 am
Is this thread dead? Because there's still stuff going on about this, and I haven't been able to find another thread about it other than the one specifically a about the 'prank call'.

I've been quite busy with work, so the updates are sparse, if you guys have questions i'm more than happy to explain what is going on.  The restrictions on the public access to the Capitol has gotten quite out of hand, with so many badges, and security queues, and escorting and everything that nobody working the building has a good handle on exactly what is going on.  There were several times when one person who wanted to sit in on a public hearing would be surrounded by about 15 staff, police and sgts staff trying to figure out what the person needed for a pass to attend it.  An injunction was filed against the Department of Administration to open the building to the public, and they went into court over it today around 2:00.  People were flashing copies of the injunctions at us, not understanding that its up to the Governors office to obey the injunction, not the police staff, and especially not the Senate sgts staff, since we really only have power over what happens at the Senate Chambers, and inside senate offices.

I'm leaving out reporting on the things that i read in the news, as it is well known enough that i'd just be rehashing the stuff you've already read, and not really giving any insight.  As far as the sale of power plants, a lot of the facilities in question are heating and power plants built for state government buildings, and hard wired directly to them.  If sold off, the state would then be a captive consumer, and would be forced to lease back from the plant that it just sold off.  These would also be sold at the discretion of the governors office, without bids.  The JFC amended the bill, to allow for the joint finance committee to have the opportunity for passive review, which being a no-bid sale, would not have information available to them to be able to tell if any potential crony-ism is going on.


Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 04, 2011, 09:10:47 pm
This definitely needs to be bumped, with some video footage from last night.  While hardly an unbaised website, the video linked here (http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/58661/wisconsin-democratic-assemblyman-tackled-by-police/) speaks for itself.  A Democratic Wisconsin House Assemblyman was tacked and briefly detained by the capitol building's security, as part of their governor-ordered effort to keep anyone and everyone out of the statehouse without his deign.  This is thing is getting ugly.  I can't wait to hear from Vactor again.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bdthemag on March 04, 2011, 09:13:34 pm
A few days ago I saw some people on the side of the street holding up signs supporting the bill, as I drove by I gave them the bird.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Earthquake Damage on March 04, 2011, 09:23:49 pm
A few days ago I saw some people on the side of the street holding up signs supporting the bill, as I drove by I gave them the bird.

Way to change the world.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bdthemag on March 04, 2011, 09:31:00 pm
A few days ago I saw some people on the side of the street holding up signs supporting the bill, as I drove by I gave them the bird.

Way to change the world.
Sorry, it was impulse.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 04, 2011, 09:57:57 pm
Quite a few things happened yesterday in addition to what Aqizzar posted.

-The 19 Senators present voted to hold the missing 14 Senators in contempt of the Senate, and issues orders for apprehension.  This has sparked a legal debate, as the Wisconsin constitution dictates that legislators may not be arrested unless they have committed a crime.  This is part of the protections that the State has in place to prevent political strong arming.

-A judge issued a compromise order, where public is no longer allowed to stay in the Capitol past business hours of 8am - 6pm, but during those hours free access can not be denied.

-At 6:00pm when the building was to be cleared of the public, protesters gained control of an entrance, and one of the Capitol's 4 wings was flooded with protesters.  Our staff locked down the Senate chambers to prevent the chambers from being taken, but the protesters were contained by police before they got out of the wing.  Police, and an assemblyman spoke to the crowd, laid out the particulars of the judge's orders, and most protesters in that wing left willingly at this point.  The police continued talking to the protesters who had been spending the night in the rotunda for a few hours until a consensus was reached and all the protesters walked willingly out of the Capitol with the police.

On Wednesday the Senate changed its rules to allow the staff of the missing Senators to be assigned to members who have been present, as well as revoking additional privileges of staff in said offices, such as their parking spaces, among other things.


Today the atmosphere was much better, the Senate canceled the session that was scheduled, and the open access was restored, with all wings open, and police wanding people indoors before they were set free into the Capitol.  I am very glad that they are not restricting people any more, as it made things much more messy.

It's going to be in the low 30's tomorrow, which is a nice spring day for us, so I'm expecting that tomorrow is going to be very very big.  Last weekend it was a snowstorm, and ~100,000 people attended the rally.  There have been many things that have happened this week that have escalated interest in what is going on as well.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 04, 2011, 10:26:27 pm
Yeah, it sounds to me like governor walkers proposed budget is going to cause quite the hullabaloo on it's own.  Can you confirm or deny that?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 09, 2011, 08:08:46 pm
As of the end of the last hour, the Wisconsin Senate has passed their repeal of virtually all public employee collective bargaining rights (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gwdTt6Rc4qGeIW32MNGwM_CwsPzQ?docId=6195041), by deciding in the space of an afternoon that the critical language could be separated from the budget and voted on its own, as a non-budget issue, requiring a smaller quorum, then put back into the budget.  Needless to say, the Wisconsin Democrats are declaring the vote a gross violation of legislative procedure, and probably even illegal, because if nothing else there was supposed to be at least 24 hours notice.  It still has to go back to the House for passage again, since it's technically a different bill, but there's nothing to say it won't pass tomorrow, give the 45 second vote the Republican House Leader authorized to pass it last time.

God, I hope Vactor comes back soon.  Good luck buddy.  This shit is going to explode.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on March 09, 2011, 08:14:52 pm
Yeah, it's even made the papers up here.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 09:47:49 pm
So I'm home now, we had thought we were done for the day when the Senate wrapped up their session this morning.  At 4:00 this afternoon we were told to get to the floor immediately.  I ran up the 3 flights of stairs from our office, and the session was already underway.  They made a brief statement to be recorded in the journal, appointed a conference committee, and recessed.  At 6:00 the committee was held, and immediately after they were on the floor.  Once a single copy of the 140 page bill had been printed they voted on it. 

People in the Capitol caught wind of what was going on around 4:30 or so, and the press which had mostly gone home for the day flooded back into the building.  There was no preparations made for what was going on, and because we were operating in a low key mode, people were able to come directly up to crowd the doors to the chambers.  After the committee we had to escort some shouting members of the public out of the chambers, and again after adjournment some of the people in the gallery shouted at the Senators. 

There was so little preparation for this, that as they were voting on this, staff were trying to get us to go move the Senator's cars, which they had left parked just outside the building.

Tomorrow is going to be bad, and if there's any silver lining for me, its that the bill is back over in the Assembly, and hopefully people won't be too interested in the Senate.  The worst part of this is that through all of this work taking the brunt of the public displeasure on behalf of these Senators, because of their policies I'm going to see my monthly take-home pay go from $1500/month to about $1200/month, which with the cost of living in Madison, will only cover my rent, utilities, student loans, and food.  So.... is anybody hiring?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 10:09:25 pm
Yeah, it sounds to me like governor walkers proposed budget is going to cause quite the hullabaloo on it's own.  Can you confirm or deny that?

This is an even bigger mess whose box hasn't even been opened.  The budget bill cuts $1.5 Billion in shared revenue, which is money that the state pays back to local government to allow them the freedom to manage their own affairs without having to rely solely on property taxes.  It also includes a law that prevents said local governments from adjusting their property taxes to make up for the revenue loss, with the Governor instructing them to make up the difference in payroll cuts, with police and fire exempted.  Once people start to see this in action I have a feeling that there will be an even louder, and more forceful outcry.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 09, 2011, 10:14:26 pm
The budget bill cuts $1.5 Billion in shared revenue, which is money that the state pays back to local government to allow them the freedom to manage their own affairs without having to rely solely on property taxes.  It also includes a law that prevents said local governments from adjusting their property taxes to make up for the revenue loss...

I hate to say it, but I have a strange feeling that after seeing the technical success he had in getting his union-busting law passed now, Walker might be looking across the lake (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79289.0) for some ideas of what to do about financially crushed municipalities.  They certainly sound a lot alike.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 09, 2011, 10:23:06 pm
What the hell. They just publicly confirmed this isn't about a budget. Its nothing but union busting. Taking down the only organizations left in America that represent the common working man. I knew it, but I never really expected them to show that much disregard. God damned unAmerican bastards. This pisses me off.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 10:26:49 pm
What the hell. They just publicly confirmed this isn't about a budget. Its nothing but union busting. Taking down the only organizations left in America that represent the common working man. I knew it, but I never really expected them to show that much disregard. God damned unAmerican bastards. This pisses me off.

Good.  Bust up the public service unions.

Members of private unions don't get to vote for the management of the company they work for.  But public service members get to vote for the people on the other end of the bargaining table.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 10:58:58 pm
What the hell. They just publicly confirmed this isn't about a budget. Its nothing but union busting. Taking down the only organizations left in America that represent the common working man. I knew it, but I never really expected them to show that much disregard. God damned unAmerican bastards. This pisses me off.

Good.  Bust up the public service unions.

Members of private unions don't get to vote for the management of the company they work for.  But public service members get to vote for the people on the other end of the bargaining table.

Only ~30% of the population is with you on that one.

Private worker's jobs don't get held hostage in political fights the way that public workers do.  In a career where your job is an expenditure weighted against more attractive projects and tax breaks that your boss might prefer to make to win their re-election, it really does become necessary to have the ability to negotiate with your employer the terms of your work.

I've been working 60-80 hours a week, and I don't even get paid past the first 40 hours I work, where private employees will not only get paid, they get time and a half.  I find it very disappointing for people to call for me to give up a significant portion of my modest wage because they have been convinced that I have some sort of dictatorial power over the government I work for. 
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 09, 2011, 11:02:23 pm
They believe in the Almighty Janitor.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 09, 2011, 11:05:44 pm
Strip a knight of his shield and he only has a sword. People will fight back if the unions get dissolved.

Also, this is completely shameless. How those legislators can look their voters in the face is beyond me. You elected me, why should I care about your wage?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:05:55 pm
Only ~30% of the population is with you on that one.

Yes, and we like to call ourselves "taxpayers".


Private worker's jobs don't get held hostage in political fights the way that public workers do.

And private sector employees can't be outsourced as easily because they tend to do work on-site.  My job could be sent over to some guy in India tomorrow morning if necessary.

I've been working 60-80 hours a week, and I don't even get paid past the first 40 hours I work, where private employees will not only get paid, they get time and a half.

And are you union represented?  If you are your union is doing an awful job here.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:08:56 pm
This is an even bigger mess whose box hasn't even been opened.  The budget bill cuts $1.5 Billion in shared revenue, which is money that the state pays back to local government to allow them the freedom to manage their own affairs without having to rely solely on property taxes.  It also includes a law that prevents said local governments from adjusting their property taxes to make up for the revenue loss, with the Governor instructing them to make up the difference in payroll cuts, with police and fire exempted.  Once people start to see this in action I have a feeling that there will be an even louder, and more forceful outcry.

That is absolutely horrific.  Where could they possibly find that money other then by mass layoffs of teachers?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 09, 2011, 11:11:49 pm
This is an even bigger mess whose box hasn't even been opened.  The budget bill cuts $1.5 Billion in shared revenue, which is money that the state pays back to local government to allow them the freedom to manage their own affairs without having to rely solely on property taxes.  It also includes a law that prevents said local governments from adjusting their property taxes to make up for the revenue loss, with the Governor instructing them to make up the difference in payroll cuts, with police and fire exempted.  Once people start to see this in action I have a feeling that there will be an even louder, and more forceful outcry.

That is absolutely horrific.  Where could they possibly find that money other then by mass layoffs of teachers?

Probably from the tax breaks they recently passed on the wealthiest citizens and corporate masters.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:12:41 pm
Yes, and we like to call ourselves "taxpayers".

Funny, I pay taxes and I don't hate public unions.  Are my taxes defective or something?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 09, 2011, 11:12:58 pm
I've been working 60-80 hours a week, and I don't even get paid past the first 40 hours I work, where private employees will not only get paid, they get time and a half.

And are you union represented?  If you are your union is doing an awful job here.

Union is doing an awful job of representing public workers.  Union is making excessive demands and holding government hostage.

Tell me, what's it like to hold two diametrically opposed thoughts in your head at the same time?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:17:23 pm
I've been working 60-80 hours a week, and I don't even get paid past the first 40 hours I work, where private employees will not only get paid, they get time and a half.

And are you union represented?  If you are your union is doing an awful job here.

Union is doing an awful job of representing public workers.  Union is making excessive demands and holding government hostage.

Tell me, what's it like to hold two diametrically opposed thoughts in your head at the same time?

Unions are best at representing senior employees and retired members.  This guy sounds young.  The older union folk got theirs and are screwing him.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 09, 2011, 11:17:52 pm
Doublethink isn't painful until it is realized. I know from experience.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:23:42 pm
So did the unions sell out the younger members when they got the best deal they could in the good years or when they got the best deal they could in the bad years?  Because guess what; it's not the unions that decided to cut Vector's salary and use that money to give tax cuts to rich businessmen.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 11:24:34 pm
Only ~30% of the population is with you on that one.

Yes, and we like to call ourselves "taxpayers".


Its especially ironic considering the portion of that 30% that evade or avoid their taxes.

Unfortunately for you politically the 70% of the population that is apparently living off handouts from the "taxpayers" wins elections.


To get the discussion back to facts, 12% of the Wisconsin workforce is employed by the various governmental entities within the state, this includes the State itself, the counties, cities, townships, villages, and school districts.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 09, 2011, 11:24:41 pm
Because guess what; it's not the unions that decided to cut Vector's salary and use that money to give tax cuts to rich businessmen.
Vactor.
Vactor is not Vester is not Vector.

I, Vector, am the math nerd (small, female, but not a Pacific Islander).
Vester is the Filipina.
Vactor is the OP.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:26:08 pm
The state is broke.  When you have major debt you are at the mercy of your creditors and the people who have money.  It's no different than for an individual.  Blame the elected officials that drove your state into the ground. 
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 11:28:14 pm
The state is broke.  When you have major debt you are at the mercy of your creditors and the people who have money.  It's no different than for an individual.  Blame the elected officials that drove your state into the ground.

The budget shortfall is 0.4% of the total budget, Wisconsin is far from broke.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Earthquake Damage on March 09, 2011, 11:28:33 pm
As of December 2010, Wisconsin's unemployment rate was about 7%.  But only 30% are taxpayers?  The IRS is truly incompetent, or do you think they only pay federal taxes?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:29:08 pm
The state is broke.  When you have major debt you are at the mercy of your creditors and the people who have money.  It's no different than for an individual.  Blame the elected officials that drove your state into the ground.

Or blame the economic crisis.  And who's to blame for that?  Oh yeah, poor black people of course! [/sarcasm]

The state is too broke to keep it's contractual obligations to school teachers but isn't too broke to do another round of tax cuts for the rich?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:36:13 pm
And who's to blame for that?  Oh yeah, poor black people of course!

Ok stooge, you are no longer worth my limited time.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:37:45 pm
And who's to blame for that?  Oh yeah, poor black people of course!

Ok stooge, you are no longer worth my limited time.

Wow, way to edit out the sarcasm tag.  That would totally convince anyone too lazy to look an inch above.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 09, 2011, 11:40:27 pm
The state is broke.  When you have major debt you are at the mercy of your creditors and the people who have money.  It's no different than for an individual.  Blame the elected officials that drove your state into the ground.

The budget shortfall is 0.4% of the total budget, Wisconsin is far from broke.

Quoting myself, but in addition, Wisconsin doesn't allow itself to go into debt.  Every budget must be balanced.  Any shortfall is projected, and not current.  This is why we have budget adjustment bills come towards the end of a session, to account for what actually happened with revenue.

You have to remember I work in a non-partisan position, I get exposed to much more information than talking points.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 09, 2011, 11:47:01 pm
In Maryland we have a reserve fund which we saved up in the good years and are using it to bridge the budget gap this year (before that was the stimulus money).  Of course, some fiscal readjustments were needed too, but it's helping a lot.  Does Wisconsin have such a fund and how big is it?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on March 09, 2011, 11:49:08 pm
I most certainly am a taxpayer, and I generally support unions.  Some of them are awful (like when the local automotive union somehow took over collective bargaining for grad students at my university...wtf...) but they're overall a good thing.  Eliminating them through legal action is downright fascist any way you slice it.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:50:57 pm
Quoting myself, but in addition, Wisconsin doesn't allow itself to go into debt.  Every budget must be balanced.  Any shortfall is projected, and not current.  This is why we have budget adjustment bills come towards the end of a session, to account for what actually happened with revenue.

Yes, this is true for every state in the union, I believe.

You have to remember I work in a non-partisan position, I get exposed to much more information than talking points.

Noted, and I thank you for your input here.  I follow financial markets closely (and no, I do not work in the finance industry).  Poor demographic trends in the U.S., coupled with underfunded public pension obligations and a crumbling municipal bond market make me believe that shortfalls and deficits across the country are far worse than projected.  Official projections for these sort of things tend to be overly optimistic.

By the way, I live in New York with the highly corrupt MTA and their union so I have a lot of bitterness towards them.  My mother also works in civil service (not in the MTA) and believe me I hear all sorts of stories about what goes on in these unions.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bouchart on March 09, 2011, 11:54:52 pm
I most certainly am a taxpayer, and I generally support unions.  Some of them are awful (like when the local automotive union somehow took over collective bargaining for grad students at my university...wtf...) but they're overall a good thing.  Eliminating them through legal action is downright fascist any way you slice it.

I have no issue with unions in private industry- the Teamsters, for example, or the automotive workers union.  I believe they have every right to organize.  I wouldn't want to be a member of one, however.  Nor do I believe that union membership should be compulsory if you want to work in trucking or on an assembly line.

Unions in the public sector are another matter.  There's no "cost control" because union members can throw a significant amount of votes for a candidate that offers them enough goodies during negotiations.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on March 10, 2011, 12:01:12 am
Unions in the public sector are another matter.  There's no "cost control" because union members can throw a significant amount of votes for a candidate that offers them enough goodies during negotiations.

If you think a union can really swing enough votes just for that one purpose...well, then, maybe there's a significant enough population that thinks it's actually important.  It's not like every goddamn voter is a member of any one given union.  Besides, look at all the other single-issue economic things that people vote for.  People vote for people who will give them tax cuts.  People vote for candidates who endorse construction in the field they work for.  Etc.  Unions really don't change that.

Teachers' unions don't get pro-education people voted in.  People who think teachers should be fucking paid get pro-education people voted in.  So what if a lot of those folks decided to become teachers, and to join a union?  That doesn't make their political opinions any less valid.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 12:05:41 am
Nor do I believe that union membership should be compulsory if you want to work in trucking or on an assembly line.

"Right-to-work" states make it impossible for unions to have real bargaining power.  Saying you favor a right to work approach to unionization is saying that you favor having no significant labor organizations and pretty soon only 7% of the private workforce is unionized.  It's just hiding it behind a step of removal.  It's like how saying you favor cuts to local or state governments means you favor firing teachers.  You need to actually think through the consequences of your decisions.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: ed boy on March 10, 2011, 05:08:39 am
As of December 2010, Wisconsin's unemployment rate was about 7%.  But only 30% are taxpayers?
The official definition of unemployed is people who are willing and able to work, but do not have a job, hence the difference between the numbers.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 09:31:04 am
Sarcasm fail all over the place in this thread.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Earthquake Damage on March 10, 2011, 09:33:24 am
The official definition of unemployed is people who are willing and able to work, but do not have a job, hence the difference between the numbers.

Allow me to introduce you to my derp.  He's not very herp.  In other words, touché.

I still very much contest the "all taxpayers and only taxpayers dislike public unions" bullshit.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 09:54:00 am
It is a generalization, and is thus bullshit by definition.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 01:12:41 pm
The silliness of that remark was pointed out rather quickly.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 10, 2011, 03:28:57 pm
I just got in argument in my government class over this.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Ampersand on March 10, 2011, 04:00:56 pm
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=government+surplus+by+country

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=oil+production+by+country

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=oil+consumption+by+country

All these wonderful debates about worker rights and compensation are good and all, but these are debates we would not be having if the USA and it's constituent states bothered to have budget that ends in the black, rather than the red. Of course, in America, our politicians have convinced us that the solution to every problem is for the government to cut it's primary revenue source, Taxes.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Leafsnail on March 10, 2011, 04:47:33 pm
Yes, and we like to call ourselves "taxpayers".
Uh... don't public sector workers pay taxes too?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 05:21:57 pm
No, they just murder taxpayer babies and use their blood in rituals to the god of public unions.  That scares off the IRS.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Zrk2 on March 10, 2011, 05:40:15 pm
No, they just murder taxpayer babies and use their blood in rituals to the god of public unions.  That scares off the IRS.

...But the IRS are public sector workers too!!!! /brain bleach required
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 10, 2011, 05:43:29 pm
No, they just murder taxpayer babies and use their blood in rituals to the god of public unions.  That scares off the IRS.

...But the IRS are public sector workers too!!!! /brain bleach required

Ah, but they have the power to find you guilty until proven innocent and ruin and wield financial ruin against the most helpless while more or less sparing anyone with a fancy tax attorney, and therefore cthul...fasci...republicans love them.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 06:26:20 pm
Actually, republicans hate IRS agents.  Every dollar of additional funding for the IRS results in 10 dollars in additional revenue for republican campaign donors tax frauds republican campaign donors so the GOP has been cutting the IRS budget for the past 30 years.  One of the easiest ways to reduce the deficit in this country without raising taxes or cutting services would be hiring more IRS agents to cut down on tax fraud.  In a sane universe, we would have done it already.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 10, 2011, 06:28:58 pm
Actually, republicans hate IRS agents.  Every dollar of additional funding for the IRS results in 10 dollars in additional revenue for republican campaign donors tax frauds republican campaign donors so the GOP has been cutting the IRS budget for the past 30 years.  One of the easiest ways to reduce the deficit in this country without raising taxes or cutting services would be hiring more IRS agents to cut down on tax fraud.  In a sane universe, we would have done it already.

I've mentioned the proposed Republican budget in Congress includes cutting the IRS's operation budget by $600 million, right?  I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that at some point.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 06:35:03 pm
With politics I pretty much take it as a given that you and I are up to speed on most of the important things.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 10, 2011, 06:42:49 pm
I am sorry, I can't allow reality to get in the way when I need to make a joke.

At this point I either have to crack a joke or scream at the absurdity of it all.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 10, 2011, 06:43:08 pm
Actually, republicans hate IRS agents.  Every dollar of additional funding for the IRS results in 10 dollars in additional revenue for republican campaign donors tax frauds republican campaign donors so the GOP has been cutting the IRS budget for the past 30 years.  One of the easiest ways to reduce the deficit in this country without raising taxes or cutting services would be hiring more IRS agents to cut down on tax fraud.  In a sane universe, we would have done it already.

I've mentioned the proposed Republican budget in Congress includes cutting the IRS's operation budget by $600 million, right?  I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that at some point.

Well, good! The real money handling should be done by people who have worked their way to the top climbing the corporate ladder! The IRS just wants to take your money, because no one in there earned their position! And no one else wants to get your money, no one but the government!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 06:45:27 pm
The real money handling should be done by people who have worked their way to the top climbing the corporate ladder! The IRS just wants to take your money, because no one in there earned their position! And no one else wants to get your money, no one but the government!

By the power of editing your comment I have turned you into a stooge!  I am a wizzard!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 10, 2011, 06:49:39 pm
I am a stooge!

what'd you say?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Leafsnail on March 10, 2011, 06:50:34 pm
Just out of interesting, what's the Republican party line on tax evasion?  A google search didn't reveal anything other than a load of Republicans accused of tax evasion.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 10, 2011, 06:53:18 pm
As far as I know, they do not regularly accuse the democrats of tax evasion. So they must do it.

>_>
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 06:54:05 pm
Just out of interesting, what's the Republican party line on tax evasion?  A google search didn't reveal anything other than a load of Republicans accused of tax evasion.

Sigged.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 06:59:43 pm
Just out of interesting, what's the Republican party line on tax evasion?  A google search didn't reveal anything other than a load of Republicans accused of tax evasion.

T-Paw (Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty) recently went on record saying that big corporations (such as Bank of America in this case) paid no taxes was because we needed to lower the corporate tax rate.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 10, 2011, 07:01:17 pm
WHAT.

*Brainshunt*
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2011, 07:05:39 pm
He's a freedom loving republican and doesn't need your braining and thinking and whatnot.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Leafsnail on March 10, 2011, 07:11:51 pm
T-Paw (Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty) recently went on record saying that big corporations (such as Bank of America in this case) paid no taxes was because we needed to lower the corporate tax rate.
The idea that they would continue to not pay tax if they thought they could get away with it is ludicrous.  Clearly they are just not paying taxes out of principle.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 10, 2011, 07:45:04 pm
T-Paw (Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty) recently went on record saying that big corporations (such as Bank of America in this case) paid no taxes was because we needed to lower the corporate tax rate.
The idea that they would continue to not pay tax if they thought they could get away with it is ludicrous.  Clearly they are just not paying taxes out of principle.

Well, it is one of our founding principals...
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 08:31:58 pm
T-Paw (Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty) recently went on record saying that big corporations (such as Bank of America in this case) paid no taxes was because we needed to lower the corporate tax rate.

I have a brick with "Pawlenty" carved on it. It appeared on top of my books while I was reading this.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 10, 2011, 08:33:57 pm
Please, by all means return it to him at a high velocity
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 08:44:10 pm
Trebuchet or catapult?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 10, 2011, 08:46:12 pm
Be creative  ;D
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 08:51:13 pm
Modified-spring-loaded-glove-in-a-box it is.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Akura on March 10, 2011, 08:53:03 pm
A catapult mounted on a trebuchet?
@Ninja'd:
Modified-spring-loaded-glove-in-a-box it is.
This? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 08:53:42 pm
Kind of, just faster and it aims for the face.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: alway on March 10, 2011, 08:59:34 pm
Hey, don't give it back to him, he doesn't own it. It actually belongs to the corporations from whom he has it on loan. When his term loan is up, it is given back to the corporations to distribute to a new willing politician customer. That's how politics loans work.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 10, 2011, 09:00:42 pm
So use it on some CEOs.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 10, 2011, 09:07:42 pm
So should I relabel it "To whom it may concern" for future use?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 10, 2011, 09:08:54 pm
Yeah. and maybe coat it in steel or lead. Gold's too expensive.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 10, 2011, 09:14:23 pm
I hate to be a stick in the mud, can this thread not be an IRC channel?  A few is enough.

I'm trying to find a news source to back up the allegation that several of the Wisconsin Republican senators are due to attend a party at a corporate lobbying firm in Washington in the next few days.  It'd be a shame if it wasn't true, but I'm more than willing to let it be wild hyperbole.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: alway on March 10, 2011, 09:21:13 pm
I'm trying to find a news source to back up the allegation that several of the Wisconsin Republican senators are due to attend a party at a corporate lobbying firm in Washington in the next few days.  It'd be a shame if it wasn't true, but I'm more than willing to let it be wild hyperbole.
Google news turns up this as a source: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117699163.html
A wiki page on the source shows it to be about as trustworthy as you can get for an internet source. They won 7 Pulitzer prizes for their journalism at various points, with no 'criticism' or other negative sections on the wiki.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 10, 2011, 10:24:58 pm
The Journal Sentinel is one two papers regarded as "state papers" It is based out of Milwaukee, and tends to be more conservative leaning compared to the Madison based Wisconsin State Journal.  So yes, its a very reliable source.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 10, 2011, 10:53:55 pm
Has anyone else heard about the 'voter IDs' that are currently trying to be pushed through by republicans?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 11, 2011, 12:50:09 am
Is that just in Wisconsin?  I thought that people around the States already needed some form of ID to vote, preventing people from lying and saying, "I'm such-and-such" and voting for them.  Though that happens with the current system anyways, so anything that improves voting security is a plus in my opinion.  That is, if it works.

That's another topic, however.


I have mixed feelings about the Unions being removed.  I feel your pain with low pay, since I've been in the same situation since I started working about eight years ago.  Minimum wage (Or less), poor hours, lots of work...

If companies were fair in the first place, it'd be a lot easier.  On the other hand, the economy is in the pits, so I'd be cautious about spending too much if I were in their position.  I'm willing to empathize with them.  (Working in the government has to suck, though, especially since there's ulterior motives to everything that may or may not adversely affect you.  You're only one vote, after all.  Again, it shouldn't be that way.)

Basically, everything's working against itself, and these attempts at declaring with complete authority what works and what doesn't work is kind of annoying.  Any way we go is going to be a bumpy road, unions or no unions, lots of government spending or none at all.  I just want things to smooth over so I can work and support my family independently and comfortably.  If I get that, I'll be happy.

Good luck out there, Vactor.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Flaede on March 11, 2011, 03:04:37 am
Good luck out there, Vactor.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: DJ on March 11, 2011, 07:13:05 am
So, any plans for a general strike?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: SeaBee on March 11, 2011, 02:20:57 pm
Just wanted to say thanks to Vactor for offering some insights into a historic moment for Wisconsin (and the U.S.).

So, thanks Vactor. You put in some serious hours there.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 11, 2011, 05:00:28 pm
So, any plans for a general strike?

Considering the actions of their governor so far. I wouldn't be surprised if he just fired anyone who striked, like reagan did.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 11, 2011, 11:07:12 pm
So, any plans for a general strike?

Considering the actions of their governor so far. I wouldn't be surprised if he just fired anyone who striked, like reagan did.

That would be fun to explain to the Parent Teacher Association.

"Yeah, your child's school doesn't have any teachers because they wanted to keep their union.  Don't worry, I'm sure we'll be able to hire some new ones in a year or two."
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: DJ on March 12, 2011, 01:10:13 am
You can only fire so many people before the whole system collapses. Schools and hospitals aren't exactly assembly lines, you can't just bring in a load of strike breakers. So as long as the strikers maintain solidarity, they can paralyse the state of Wisconsin till their demands are met or the general population gets sick of it and tars and feathers the governor before exiling him.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 12, 2011, 01:24:13 am
Or they could do the same to the teachers.

I think that's what they should do to teachers in the first place, but I'm biased, 'cause I'm young. ;D
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: olemars on March 12, 2011, 04:35:21 am
So, any plans for a general strike?

Considering the actions of their governor so far. I wouldn't be surprised if he just fired anyone who striked, like reagan did.

He could do it the Gaddafi way and threaten to replace the population with affordable chinese.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 12, 2011, 02:18:10 pm
Workers that aren't replaceable? BAH HUMBUG!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 14, 2011, 09:59:03 pm
In case anyone's wondering, the Wisconsin thing is still going, even with the public-worker collective-bargaining restrictions signed into law.  The court system is trying to decide if a stay should be placed on the law, at least until the settle whether it was passed illegally.

Meanwhile, the public worker unions have found an interesting ally, in Wisconsin farmers.  Madison was overrun with tractors over the weekend, and this guy Tony Schultz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKOvqXoWB7s), actual farmer, is lighting up the airwaves with some old-fashioned firebrand speechin'.  He's mad as Hell, as he's not gonna take it anymore, with language that will be declared Socialist (and by rights, it honestly kinda is) within a day or two by almost anyone with a TV show.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aklyon on March 14, 2011, 10:02:18 pm
Go Farmerdude go!
Firebrand speechin' be more interestin' than most of the talk shows anyway.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 14, 2011, 10:22:53 pm
that really was a damn good speech.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Heron TSG on March 14, 2011, 11:22:54 pm
I could barely understand him after the 6 minute mark and yet I was still inspired enough to drop kick a bear through my neighbor's house.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Realmfighter on March 14, 2011, 11:30:55 pm
He's just so animated.

Dat Claw hand man.

Its the key to his power.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: scriver on March 15, 2011, 12:27:11 pm
Schultz -> German(-ish) -> Marx & Engels. Also Lenin.
Seriously guys. Wake up sheeple!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nadaka on March 15, 2011, 12:32:05 pm
Schultz -> German(-ish) -> Marx & Engels. Also Lenin.
Seriously guys. Wake up sheeple!

Um... What are you actually trying to say here. I can't parse this in any logical way.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: scriver on March 15, 2011, 12:35:01 pm
Can't you see it! It's so obvious! THE TURTH IS OUT THERE!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: DJ on March 15, 2011, 01:24:07 pm
Man, I got tears in my eyes from that speech.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Simmura McCrea on March 15, 2011, 02:12:50 pm
I'd vote for him. Wonder if he talks like that all the time? It'd make for a hell of a "Have a nice day at work, honey".
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 15, 2011, 04:12:25 pm
That was absolutely awesome.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 15, 2011, 04:19:28 pm
I could barely understand him after the 6 minute mark and yet I was still inspired enough to drop kick a bear through my neighbor's house.

Into my sig.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 15, 2011, 04:58:43 pm
A good joke found on Al-Jazeera

Quote from: Al-Jazeera
A CEO, a union worker and a Tea Partier (a member of the emerging right-wing political movement) are at a table with 12 cookies. The CEO takes 11 and says to the Tea Partier: "Keep an eye on that union guy, he wants your cookie."
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 15, 2011, 10:25:40 pm
I'd love to see a revival of the farmer-laborer party.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 16, 2011, 10:19:22 pm
Since I couldn't find a good transcript anywhere on the Internet, I went ahead and wrote down Tony Schultz's speech, for a clearer record and presentation.  There's only a couple spots that I couldn't figure out what he was saying, and they're not really important.  If anyone knows what he was saying, do tell.  I chose to exclude exclamation points, since the entire speech is essentially in an exclamation-point voice, and I'm pressed for time.  I really hope it's all spelled correctly, because I'm pressed for time.



My name is Tony Schultz, and I'm a member of Family (something?) National Farmers Union.  I'm a third generation family farmer, born and raised on a fifty cow dairy with my family.  Today, my partner Kat and I, we wanna run our farm as a hundred and fifty member CSA (http://www.localharvest.org/csa/) with beefers and maple syrup and chickens and pigs... And I came back to the family farm after college, because of my values.  And it's the values I'm reminded of every time I look at my state's license plate, and see that little red barn.  And it's values that I think overlap entirely with the values of the labor movement.  Family farmers, like the labor movement, value the dignity of being able to have some control over your work, and your life.  To be empowered by your work, and not alienated by it.  Family farmers, like the labor movement, value the means to have a beautiful and constructive setting to raise a family.  Family farmers, like the labor movement, value economic democracy.  What is a union anyway, but working people coming together, acting together, to improve their lives.  And that is what we're here to do: to act together and speak together, in solidarity.  Saying, "We reject this union busting bill, and we reject this budget."

Solidarity between farmers and workers is an old and sacred alliance of producers, that dates back beyond the populist movement.  When workers and farmers came together, to struggle for a progressive income tax, for a financial system that served the people, for unions and the eight-hour day.  And we stand together today.  Listen to these quotes from populists over a hundred and twenty years ago: Tom Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Watson), a Georgia populist said, and this couldn't be truer, "the fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up the fortunes of a few, unprecedented in human history."  Ignatius Donnelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_L._Donnelly), a Minnesota populist said in 1890, "the interests of rural and urban labor are the same, their enemies are identical."  For more than a hundred years, we have been fighting together, we have been picketing together, we've been dumping milk (http://www.themilitant.com/2000/6435/643552.shtml), we've been sitting in, we've been blocking traffic, and we are going to take this state back.

And then there are those who tell us, "this isn't a farmers' issue."  If those people have petty resentment that then is amplified by right-wing radio, until they think that a fireman's pension is the problem.  And then there are groups that represent this evil; the Dairy Business Association was here on Wednesday, the (eighth?) day at the capitol saying, hooray for Walker's budget.  Well I want you to know that those aren't farmers.  They're agribusiness corporations with a few farms up front.  And I want Wisconsin and the world to know that this is the real (eighth?) day at the capitol.  This is a farmers' issue; it's a farmers' issue because our rural schools are getting decimated by this budget, and they are the centers of our small towns and rural communities.  In my home town of Athens, fourteen of forty four teachers got pink slips - will be laid off because of this budget.  It's bad for our children's education, it's bad for the stability of our town, it's bad for the very future of our school district, and we say no.  It's a farmers' issue, because Scott Walker wants to hack Badgercare (http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/badgercareplus/) - eleven thousand family farm members depend on Badgercare, because of the exclusivity of for-profit health insurance companies, and because the pathetic and volatile price we receive for milk and other commodities that don't meet the cost of our production.  We depend on this.  We support Badgercare.  It's a farmers' issue because we have been battling for corporate power for more than a century.  This budget could not be a clearer manifestation of corporate power, and we say no.  It's a farmers' issue because public workers are our friends, and our neighbors, and our family members, and we stand in solidarity with them.  It's a farmer's issue because we know that we're all in this together, we go up together or we go down together.

The way I see it, we've got two choices.  I can have my unions busted, and stand alone and be pitted against my neighbor, in a desperate and unequal economy.  Or we can come together to say, "this is what our families need, this is what our communities need, this is what a just wage is, this is what democracy looks like."  It's a farmers' issue because we are saying, that an injury to one is an injury to all.  Solidarity!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on March 16, 2011, 10:24:50 pm
God bless the United States of Midwestia.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Taricus on March 16, 2011, 10:24:58 pm
Damn, that is a rising speech :D
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Flaede on March 16, 2011, 10:26:43 pm
Thank you, Aquizzar.
That transcript is much easier for me to follow than any video. Especially since my internet connection (and computer!) aren't too good with video feed right now. It's also a lot easier to sit and contemplate text than a rousing speech after it has ended.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on March 16, 2011, 10:38:18 pm
Thank you very much for posting that transcript!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Realmfighter on March 16, 2011, 11:13:17 pm
For (Eight?) I thought that he was saying Agr, a shortening of Agriculture day at the Capital.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 16, 2011, 11:29:52 pm
For (Eight?) I thought that he was saying Agr, a shortening of Agriculture day at the Capital.

yeah he's saying Ag day, in reference to the lobby days that are held:  http://www.wisconsinagconnection.com/story-state.php?Id=284&yr=2011 (http://www.wisconsinagconnection.com/story-state.php?Id=284&yr=2011)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: jester on March 18, 2011, 08:07:15 pm
Farming folk the world over: Fighting the goddam man since the year .
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 18, 2011, 08:40:43 pm
As pretty much anyone could have expected - a Wisconsin state circuit judge has placed a stay on the implementation of the union/budget bill (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-wisconsin-unions-20110319,0,5336189.story), pending further hearing and trial, in light of reasonably substantial complaint that the bill's passage violated open-disclosure laws.  The issue is definitely still alive and still moving.

Meanwhile, after Governor Scott Walker released some emails to make his case that he had huge public support on his side, this somehow triggered a real legal argument that allowed the Associated Press to sue for release of his official emails, probably under freedom of information laws.  It's still pretty up in the air, but the 8000 or so emails released, on the whole, don't exactly speak in his favor to put it politely, and may even wind up building an Ethics case against him in conjunction with the fake-Koch phonecall.  I'll try to find a proper link once the story shakes out a bit.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on March 28, 2011, 09:10:29 pm
I think our old pal Vactor may have been crushed under the mob.  I wonder whatever happened to him.  Yo Vac, hope to hear how things are going.

I can ask that, because the public-worker-union business isn't over yet.  As you'll notice from my nine-day-old post, a Wisconsin state-capitol judge placed a stay on the "Budget Repair" bill's implementation as a law.  Governor Walker wanted it to be a law anyway, but the guy who actually publishes laws to be laws, the Secretary of State (Democrat) Doug LaFollette refused to publish it, because y'know judge's stay on the bill and all.  So Walker went to the "Legislative Reference Bureau" and made them officially publish the bill (http://www.channel3000.com/politics/27338551/detail.html), and supposedly the governor's office is already sending out notices of pay cuts.  The LRB meanwhile insists they only published the bill because they didn't think they had the authority for that to mark it as standing law.

So you have the courts, the responsible government publishing bureau, and the Secretary of State all saying a kinda-sorta published bill isn't really a law yet, and the Governor who has the power to order things to be enforced says it is a law.  All political concepts and arguments aside, this is not how you run a government.  There should not be this kind of dire confusion over whether a bill is actually and can actually be implemented, with the Chief Executive at odds with his own offices and the Judiciary.

Meanwhile, semi-private agencies like state university faculties are lining up to unionize (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/28/wisconsin-universities-vote-join-teachers-union-wake-walker/).  And the state's own budget-analysis offices report that the upcoming Wisconsin budget, passed under the shadow of the Governor insisting the state is too broke to follow the legal legislative process, will actually increase spending by about 1% (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9M8D1N00.htm), while still managing to slash most actual department budgets, with most of the savings being creamed off to private-public partnerships.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Burnt Pies on March 28, 2011, 09:28:15 pm
Good to see someone's keeping the old tradition of hideous corruption alive and kicking.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 28, 2011, 10:17:50 pm
At this point, Wisconsin seems to have become a hideous... I'm not really sure how to describe it. Let's just go get Vactor's broken and mangled corpse and then quarantine the state.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on March 28, 2011, 10:27:52 pm
A hideous example of how not to make a bill law.

In before bill is taken away, and layoffs/paycuts happening now are not accounted for because, "well technically it was never a bill, so you can't account for something that was never a legal force" blaming dems for removing the bill and defending his own actions in the way I can only expect such a character to do.

PS: above is speculation on a specific situation with several variables. I know it is unlikely to happen at all, but i still want to be in before it does.  8)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 28, 2011, 10:35:09 pm
I'm still alive, but have been trying my best to divorce myself of dealing with this stuff when i'm not at work.  One quick correction to Aqizzar's post, the upcoming budget has yet to be passed.  The bill that was passed was simply a budget repair bill for the previous budget.

Right now we're getting ready to take the upcoming, and in all likelihood more controversial, 2011-2013 budget around the state for public hearings before the joint finance committee.  I've been applying for other jobs, but it seems unlikely I'll land one before we dive back into the middle of the fray.

Its a rather terrible type of dread that i've got for this, as there is nothing I can do to resolve the upcoming situation, it just keeps looming closer and closer.  Tommorow and Wednesday we will be working the departmental briefings, and at the end of the week we'll be holding our first hearing on it.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aklyon on March 28, 2011, 10:39:03 pm
I'm still alive
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bauglir on March 28, 2011, 10:39:59 pm
-snip-
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Kogut on March 30, 2011, 09:15:02 am
<post to watch>

In general, I rather dislike unions but style and methods of implementing this law is sick. And democrats are still hiding somewhere?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 30, 2011, 09:20:28 am
<post to watch>

In general, I rather dislike unions but style and methods of implementing this law is sick. And democrats are still hiding somewhere?

The Democrats have been back for a few weeks now, once the bill was voted on in the Senate they came back.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: thobal on March 30, 2011, 10:08:43 am
Doesn't the democrats return run the risk that the law will be passed in a proper form now that they've returned?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nikov on March 30, 2011, 01:48:30 pm
On a similar note... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-29-indiana-democrats-return_N.htm)

Something tells me the Democrats will be suffering a real hangover come next election day.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on March 30, 2011, 03:02:12 pm
Doesn't the democrats return run the risk that the law will be passed in a proper form now that they've returned?

Not really, the main substance of the bill was passed out of the Senate without them, The only thing that was removed with the bill to allow it to be voted on was some refinancing of bonds.  The bill could be taken back up and passed again, but it would have to make its way through the various processes all over again, something the Republicans seem loathe to do, as it would give the Democrats in both houses an opportunity to fight it every step of the way all over again.

By passing this bill without the Democrats, the Republicans opened the door for them to return to the state without betraying those they supported, if ultimately unsuccessful in changing the bill.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Heron TSG on March 31, 2011, 09:01:05 pm
Hey, I heard that a judge stopped the bill. Yay!
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aklyon on March 31, 2011, 10:48:11 pm
Hey, I heard that a judge stopped the bill. Yay!
They seem to be good at doing that lately.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 31, 2011, 11:06:41 pm
Stopping terrible things is their job, so I'm glad they're doing it.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on April 06, 2011, 09:52:36 pm
Just because I'm in a news mood today, there's been some interesting activity in Wisconsin lately.  The very first post-union-dustup election was held last night, for a State Supreme Court seat.  The incumbent, David Prosser, had held the seat for 30 years, and had rarely if ever actually had to campaign for it.  The challenger, JoAnne Kloppenburg, had already run for another Supreme Court seat a few months ago, and was blown away 65-35 in an election a couple thousand people turned out for.

At any other time, in any other state, that exact same thing would have been repeated.  But Kloppenburg became the vessel for a lot of anti-Walker funding and campaigning and promises to oppose any Walker-related labor legislation that came before the court, while Prosser quietly acknowledged his support for the governor's ongoing campaign.  Voter turnout was something like 33%, phenomenal for an off-season state election between two candidates nobody had ever heard of a month ago.  With 1.2 million votes counted, Kloppenburg declared victory (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/kloppenburg-declares-victory-in-wisconsin-race-walker-bill-turned-competitive/236921/) when the State Department's first official final vote count said she came out 204 votes ahead.

Naturally, it's in recount, and probably will be a few times, but if she winds up winning by a single vote, with be an extraordinary event in the continuum of state politics.  It will also shift the balance of the Wisconsin Supreme Court from a one-seat margin in the governor's favor to a one-vote margin against, at a time when there's some huge pieces of legislation likely to be ruled on.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Heron TSG on April 06, 2011, 10:20:59 pm
Ooh, I was just about to post that. It's nice to see that people go and vote when things start getting hot.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on April 07, 2011, 08:30:22 pm
Just because it's already in a thread here: Wisconsin State Supreme Court race is still up in the air, and is now projected to go to the incumbent David Prosser, after a town in Wisconsin's most conservative county (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wisconsin-election-results-david-prosser-ally-governor-scott/story?id=13324581) finally remembered how spreadsheets work.  A town's votes went unreported when the local commissioner (a partisan elected position, for some reason) failed to save a file correctly.  The theoretical first count for the vote goes from 200-ish for Kloppenburg to 7000-ish for Prosser, which is still close enough to warrant a recount.

There's really nothing to say about this, except that it's a clarion call for the state election system to actually function like a 21st century civil service.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on April 07, 2011, 09:50:28 pm
It all sounds fishy to me.

With an issue so intense as the wisconsin battle, I can hardly see the most heavily republican county, with vote reporting worked on by a republican clerk no less, to just 'forget' several thousand votes. Then say "oh yeah, forgot to press the save button, honest mistake, nothing to see here, move on shows over."

Lets act like grown ups and admit when we've lost.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nikov on April 09, 2011, 07:26:46 am
Lets act like grown ups and admit when we've lost.

While I should hope the county clerk isn't running for reelection after an error that raised national scrutiny, I still think 14,000 people deserve their right to vote. The mistake will no doubt be scrutinized for electioneering. In the meantime, there's apparently no recount, according to yesterday's news.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on April 09, 2011, 11:38:59 am
Lets act like grown ups and admit when we've lost.

While I should hope the county clerk isn't running for reelection after an error that raised national scrutiny, I still think 14,000 people deserve their right to vote. The mistake will no doubt be scrutinized for electioneering. In the meantime, there's apparently no recount, according to yesterday's news.

She 'forgot' to submit votes in at least two other previous elections, where, a democrat was winning by a small percentage. The added votes swung each election to the right's side. This isn't just credibility, there should be a goddamn investigation.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Nikov on April 09, 2011, 01:46:57 pm
Lets act like grown ups and admit when we've lost.

While I should hope the county clerk isn't running for reelection after an error that raised national scrutiny, I still think 14,000 people deserve their right to vote. The mistake will no doubt be scrutinized for electioneering. In the meantime, there's apparently no recount, according to yesterday's news.

She 'forgot' to submit votes in at least two other previous elections, where, a democrat was winning by a small percentage. The added votes swung each election to the right's side. This isn't just credibility, there should be a goddamn investigation.

Erm, yeah. There should be scrutiny, without a doubt, to determine if this is a mistake or electioneering.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 09, 2011, 03:32:55 pm
She 'forgot' to submit votes in at least two other previous elections, where, a democrat was winning by a small percentage. The added votes swung each election to the right's side. This isn't just credibility, there should be a goddamn investigation.
There should be. If it turns out to just be a really bad-looking coincidence, I will eat the first hat I find.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Blargityblarg on April 10, 2011, 04:11:55 am
She 'forgot' to submit votes in at least two other previous elections, where, a democrat was winning by a small percentage. The added votes swung each election to the right's side. This isn't just credibility, there should be a goddamn investigation.
There should be. If it turns out to just be a really bad-looking coincidence, I will eat the first hat I find.

If it turns out to be above board, I will personally get you an audience with the Pope.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on April 21, 2011, 08:54:34 pm
I thought I'd bump this thread with some news from today.  After the legislative hootenanny, a bunch of Democratic political groups in Wisconsin started collecting signatures for Recall Petitions against some Republican state senators.  The deadline is May 2, they've collected enough signatures for four recalls and nearly enough for four others.  There's also some Republican groups raising recall petitions against Democratic senators, supposedly eight but they've only collected enough signatures for two of them.

I've basically just condensed all the factual stuff from the article I'm about to link.  The noteworthy part of the story is that at least one guy raising signatures for one of the Democratic-senator recalls was doing so (a while back) by offering free shots to patrons of his bar (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/21/wisconsin-recall-shots_n_851459.html).  I wouldn't normally link to the Huffington Post, but it looks pretty legit, and there's audio - of some women who proudly have no idea what they're signing.  As well as what might be the bartender's Facebook page.  The best part is that this certainly sounds unsavory, it's probably not actually illegal.  Buying votes is one thing, but buying signatures isn't mentioned in the law.

I dunno, I just thought it was pretty funny.  Anytime alcohol is involved in politics it seems noteworthy, if only to remember what your electorate looks like.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on April 21, 2011, 09:48:20 pm
Aqizzar, every time I come on here to say something relevant you've beaten me by at least an hour. And said it ten times better than I could ever.

I just heard about the shots for siggies thing via Rachael Maddow, and came on here literally expecting your post.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on August 09, 2011, 06:10:08 pm
Lemme get this dust off of here.  One moment...

I haven't seen Vactor around in a while, and obviously this thread was pretty well buried.  For anyone still curious, the Wisconsin Senate recall election are being held today.  Originally, six Republicans and nine Democrats were up for recall votes, but the three Democrats won some check vote or primary or something with a large enough margin of victory that they are not on the recall notice today.  I'll admit, I haven't stayed on top of this.

Anyway, the polls close in about an hour.  Exit polling shows voter turnout nearing Presidential election levels, and the state has been absolutely flooded by money and staff from national organizations.  There were some rumors that state Democrats had actually taken in more campaign money than Republicans, but it's not actually true; people were just surprised that the state Democratic party raised anywhere near as much money.  Among that outside help was "Americans for Prosperity" (the public relations arm of the Koch Foundation, famous fake phonebuddies of Governor Scott Walker) sending out absentee ballot instructions to Democratic voters with false dates and mailing locations (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/126530753.html).

Stay tuned for results.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on August 09, 2011, 06:28:11 pm
Remind me again how many seats the democrats need to swing to gain control?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on August 09, 2011, 06:41:01 pm
Remind me again how many seats the democrats need to swing to gain control?

Three, which is exactly as many as polling suggests the sitting Republicans are "guaranteed" to lose to newly nominated Democratic challengers, although all six seats are close.  Since this is basically unprecedented in Wisconsin, or even national, election history the big polling firms caution everyone that they honestly have no idea what's going to happen, they're just working on first principles.  They'll find out by the end of the night though.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Sowelu on August 09, 2011, 06:53:33 pm
Among that outside help was "Americans for Prosperity" (the public relations arm of the Koch Foundation, famous fake phonebuddies of Governor Scott Walker) sending out absentee ballot instructions to Democratic voters with false dates and mailing locations (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/126530753.html).

I'm a firm believer that treason should be expanded to include actual election fraud, and these shenanigans should be close.  It is absolutely felonious.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on August 09, 2011, 07:05:05 pm
Originally, six Republicans and nine Democrats were up for recall votes, but the three Democrats won some check vote or primary or something with a large enough margin of victory that they are not on the recall notice today.  I'll admit, I haven't stayed on top of this.

Okay, I knew I was wrong about something.  For clarity, because recall elections take place after whatever time they were filed, they don't have to fall on the same date.  One Democratic senator already... uh "won" their recall vote, and was therefor kept in office.  All six Republicans happened to fall on this date.  The two remaining Democrats' elections is a couple weeks from now.

Just wanted to fix that.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: darkrider2 on August 09, 2011, 07:16:55 pm
yeah I'm crossing my fingers that all the democrats win, or at least most of them.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on August 09, 2011, 07:25:54 pm
I did a quick google search for news and the first result was the christian science monitor saying "In Wisconsin recall, voters vent anger at Washington-style politics".  Yeah... that's what they're angry about.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Flaede on August 09, 2011, 07:57:40 pm
THanks for updating this, Aqizzar. I've been rather curious what has happened with this, and was hoping for an update.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Stargrasper on August 09, 2011, 08:01:24 pm
As a Wisconsinite, this whole thing pisses me off.  It's such a waste to hold a recall election months after the actual election regardless of how you feel.  And the fact that so many national entities are involved in a state matter is appalling.

Personally, I've got a REALLY nasty taste in my mouth toward both major parties right now.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: RedKing on August 09, 2011, 08:29:56 pm
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2011/by_county/WI_Page_0809.html?SITE=AP&SECTION=POLITICS (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2011/by_county/WI_Page_0809.html?SITE=AP&SECTION=POLITICS) for the latest results. Just a few percent of precincts reporting in yet.


EDIT: Dammit, dammit, dammit! Looks like 5 of the 6 Republicans are probably going to keep their seats. Still early, but the statistical lead in most races is fairly safe. Unless Milwaukee itself goes heavily Dem, I don't see much changing.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on August 09, 2011, 09:12:39 pm
EDIT: Dammit, dammit, dammit! Looks like 5 of the 6 Republicans are probably going to keep their seats. Still early, but the statistical lead in most races is fairly safe. Unless Milwaukee itself goes heavily Dem, I don't see much changing.

As in every election, the rural districts turn in their votes first, and rural districts are largely Republican.  In the urban areas, especially around Madison, there were still hour-long lines to vote when polls officially closed (meaning they have to keep the polls open until everyone in line has voted).  The point is, never pay attention to elections when they say things like "with 2% of the vote in, we're reporting..."
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: RedKing on August 09, 2011, 09:14:58 pm
Yeah, I ignore those. There are a couple of races though where roughly half the districts are in (10th and 14th), and the GOP has a 10-point lead in one race and a 16-point lead in the other  :-\


AP has called the race in the 10th and 2nd districts, both go to the GOP with a 58-42 lead right now with about 75% reporting.  :-\

EDIT: Looking moderately better now, with three races currently leaning (D), two called for (R) and one almost fully reported but leaning (R). AP hasn't called that one yet, but I don't see it shifting enough with the remaining precincts to flip.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Aqizzar on August 09, 2011, 10:05:29 pm
AP is calling three races for Republicans, one for the Democrat with 40% of the vote in, one race a Democrat was expected to win sitting within 500 votes with 80% reporting, and one with the Democrat running away with 80% counted.

I'm out for the night, so somebody else can stay up on this.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on August 09, 2011, 10:07:48 pm
I have a feeling if only 3 seats flip, the republicans will rally a revenge vote next week, as Dems relax and likely knock out Jim Holperin in the 12th.

Recalls are a legitimate part of a democracy, if the public feels they are not being represented in their government they should always have an unquestionable right to reconsider their selection.  I think running fake candidates in the other party's primary is rather filthy, and not in keeping with the democratic spirit.

The recalls on the republican senators were not orchestrated by the democratic party, it was started by people in the districts, gathering using social networking.  The recalls on the democratic senators were started by groups outside the state, but if enough people in the district were convinced by the arguments for recalling them, then they too have the right to reconsider their vote.

As far as I'm concerned, I left the Senate.  On my last day two protesters locked their heads to the guard rail of the Senate Gallery.  I'm now in the private sector making twice what I was in my cushy, exempt from overtime, overpaid guv'ment job.

I think its really sad that our society is moving more and more towards disdain for quality people serving in government.  I took a great sense of duty with my job, and understood a low pay as part of my own sacrifice for the betterment of my state.  I'm the type of person who dosen't take my full tax refund, because I'd rather chip in what I don't need than give up the amazing country that we have built.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Stargrasper on August 09, 2011, 10:34:32 pm
Just out of curiosity, was that meant as a response to my earlier post?  Sure seems like it.

But you're right, I'm so disillusioned by the parties that I'm not paying the attention I should to the people.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: RedKing on August 09, 2011, 10:39:22 pm
Looks like it's gonna be a split decision, 3 R's stay in and 3 get tossed out.

@Vactor: I feel ya. I'm in the opposite boat, a contractor who WANTS to be a civil servant and can't get the damn government to hire me. And meanwhile sees a slew of people who have been there way too long and won't up and retire because of the economy. So younger people like me have no civil service jobs to fill.  :-\
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on August 09, 2011, 11:42:52 pm
As a Wisconsinite, this whole thing pisses me off.  It's such a waste to hold a recall election months after the actual election regardless of how you feel.

It's a generally held belief in this country that democracy is a pretty precious thing.  So shouldn't it be worth putting some effort into practicing it?  Recall elections are one of the safety valves of democracy, letting people keep politicians in line if they believe they are out of control.  Isn't that pretty much the whole point to democracy?  You can decide that the recall efforts are frivolous on the merits if you want.  But why go hating on all recalls?
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Stargrasper on August 10, 2011, 10:54:46 am
As a Wisconsinite, this whole thing pisses me off.  It's such a waste to hold a recall election months after the actual election regardless of how you feel.

It's a generally held belief in this country that democracy is a pretty precious thing.  So shouldn't it be worth putting some effort into practicing it?  Recall elections are one of the safety valves of democracy, letting people keep politicians in line if they believe they are out of control.  Isn't that pretty much the whole point to democracy?  You can decide that the recall efforts are frivolous on the merits if you want.  But why go hating on all recalls?

I didn't say anything about recalls in general.  I'm angry because there were calls very quickly after the actual elections.  That we're holding recalls within months of the elections.  These guys didn't have time to do much before people started calling for recalls.  Some of these guys only crime seems to be supporting Walker's controversial bills.

I'm not saying I like what he's doing, but I do think what's happening now is ridiculous.  And the conduct of both parties is sickening.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bauglir on August 10, 2011, 12:14:54 pm
I think a recall is justified when there's a problem of this magnitude. They didn't have time to do much, but what they did have time to do was apparently completely unacceptable to enough people to justify a recall. I don't see a problem with people having lines that they won't allow their representatives to cross.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: mainiac on August 10, 2011, 05:56:43 pm
Some of these guys only crime seems to be supporting Walker's controversial bills.

Well, yeah... that's the point.  People don't like those bills and that budget.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Vactor on August 10, 2011, 06:18:43 pm
Everyone who was/is being recalled hasn't had an election in 3 years.  A newly elected state official in Wisconsin comes with a 1 year grace period before any recall petition may be filed.  The Senate terms last 4 years, with half of the Senate coming up for election every 2 years.  All of the recalled senators were on the same ballot as Obama in 2008.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Bauglir on August 10, 2011, 09:03:18 pm
I stand corrected! That'll teach me to assume everything my opponent says is factually true.
Title: Re: Work Tomorrow (Wisconsin Protest)
Post by: Eagleon on August 11, 2011, 12:00:54 am
As another Wisconsinite, I can say I'm very much not pissed off by the recall effort. If you needed a 'crime' to take someone out of office, it would never happen, no matter how corrupt and self-aggrandizing they became during their term. You have to be able to remove people that are supporting blatantly misleading efforts to fill their own pockets, or there would be no barriers that could hold back the madness that would ensue. Supporting a bill built on the grounds of a manufactured deficit is more than enough reason to call out the big guns. I'm pleasantly surprised that it actually worked, even a little bit.