Trauma pileup is apparently no longer happening, with "saw a corpse" thoughts toned down a lot for strangers and non-dwarves and memory being spread out rather than all used up by corpse sightings.Yeah, it would be pretty pointless if we were back to 44.09 broken stress.
I did see one case of one dwarf that despite a ton of positive thoughts and only a couple annoyed ones from rain was still stressed out, so it's possible some dwarves just aren't happy with anything. But that seems more like a feature.
I've still got a couple annoying fisherdorfs (out of about 20) who super hate getting rained on and also super hate not getting to go fishing, who happen to married to extremely useful legend dorfs so I don't want to expel them. I think they're just natural complainers, and one of them was also prone to tantrums and killing people's pet dogs.Yes. That scenario sounds like exactly the right level of balance for an interesting fortress (I assume in their last job they were given umbrellas...). Can you override long term rain thought stress with temple bliss?
That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
:Or convert the above ground fishing spots to dwarf friendly environments with access tunnels and roofs.
That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
I'm still seeing roughly two-thirds of my fort in trauma due to cleaning up the aftermath of a siege. But I feel this is just the new normal, and I've got no qualms with that. It is kinda weird though that the aftermath of the ambush battle is much, much worse than the battle itself.
Any tips on disposing of sentient corpses en masse without traumatizing the whole fort?
Any tips on disposing of sentient corpses en masse without traumatizing the whole fort?
Main reason of removing corpses is preventing caravan freak-out. Unless it doesn't happen anymore in v0.44.11.Apparently it still does according to some. But my human wagons seem happy to plow through the mounds of goblin and elf parts outside my depot so it's at least toned down from previous years.
On the same note, are there any particularly worrysome bugs in the current version that have come up?Messengers are a bit dodgy, banishing doesn't work for dorfs whose children are off-site (presumably being tortured by goblins somewhere). Some of the personality quirks are a bit unbalanced, but kind of funny "I was rained on, I now shun the company of others!".
The stress problem I had in 44.10 was that certain dwarves were incapable of lowering their stress. They ratcheted up and up, no matter what. Is that still happening in 44.11?Play it and find out. Even in 44.10 stress was actually reducing with the usual 'cried on the mayor' and 'blissful at a temple' remedies. The issue was that long term memories of trauma came back so frequently and with such impact that it didn't matter.
Perfectly understandable. Just imagine: The hair plastered to the skull, and the clothes clinging to the body like a wet towel while dripping water, and everyone saw it and immediately realized I'd been on the accursed surface. After such a social disgrace it's impossible to meet the judgement apparent in the eyes of others!On the same note, are there any particularly worrysome bugs in the current version that have come up?:
Some of the personality quirks are a bit unbalanced, but kind of funny "I was rained on, I now shun the company of others!".
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Ha, perfectly relatable. :)Perfectly understandable. Just imagine: The hair plastered to the skull, and the clothes clinging to the body like a wet towel while dripping water, and everyone saw it and immediately realized I'd been on the accursed surface. After such a social disgrace it's impossible to meet the judgement apparent in the eyes of others!On the same note, are there any particularly worrysome bugs in the current version that have come up?:
Some of the personality quirks are a bit unbalanced, but kind of funny "I was rained on, I now shun the company of others!".
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I miss "took joy in slaughter."Should still be possible with the right kind of personality. I have folk getting 'grim satisfaction' from killing stuff and 'exhilaration on being attacked' which is nearly there.
I haven't had a siege or serious fight in v0.44.11, so can't tell, but I'm asking.The fix for reducing the stress of handling bodies appears to have reduced the stress of handling bodies, yes. How much, will require more evidence (so, actually play the game, find out and tell people).
In v0.44.10 there are two separate issues: (1) dwarves who get stressed no matter what, and (2) problems with handling bodies (and I don't even mean remains, just bodies are enough) and witnessing death (including from old age). The first problem I could live with, if it touches only a small percentage of my dwarves. The second is the one really breaking the game, because it applies to almost everyone, and it forces me to use cage traps and other contraptions, or DFHack's autodump.
So I'm asking about this second problem: can they see or carry the bodies of drown goblins or hacked kobolds without much repercussion, or should I expect a fortress wide depression?
I haven't had a siege or serious fight in v0.44.11, so can't tell, but I'm asking.The fix for reducing the stress of handling bodies appears to have reduced the stress of handling bodies, yes. How much, will require more evidence (so, actually play the game, find out and tell people).
In v0.44.10 there are two separate issues: (1) dwarves who get stressed no matter what, and (2) problems with handling bodies (and I don't even mean remains, just bodies are enough) and witnessing death (including from old age). The first problem I could live with, if it touches only a small percentage of my dwarves. The second is the one really breaking the game, because it applies to almost everyone, and it forces me to use cage traps and other contraptions, or DFHack's autodump.
So I'm asking about this second problem: can they see or carry the bodies of drown goblins or hacked kobolds without much repercussion, or should I expect a fortress wide depression?
Visibly, people are more 'uneasy' about seeing strangers' bodies than 'horrified' constantly. That probably helps. Then the changes to long term memories should keep things from overwhelming everyone for a while. Stress is reducing, with just a little care, from what I can see.
I've had all kinds of animal corpses lingering around the main thoroughfares for several years that no one wants to haul away and no one has gone into depression over it. The main QoL input is food and drink variety and little else.Animals were never really a big problem. It's sapients who were freaking everyone out.
One child has gotten pretty stressed about the whole thing and is tantrumming, but there's only so much you can do for children.
I don't think it's balanced either.
Can't manage to stop the "great deal of stress" either, despite on their description there's a lot of happy thought coming their way, once a dwarf is flagged by that status it seems to be only a question of year before he fall into the "haggard/stumbling around" from which i never managed to get a single one recovering.
I don't think it's balanced either.I got a dorf through 'a great deal of stress'. Took a while, but once the main thoughts hit the long term memory, he was OK.
Can't manage to stop the "great deal of stress" either, despite on their description there's a lot of happy thought coming their way, once a dwarf is flagged by that status it seems to be only a question of year before he fall into the "haggard/stumbling around" from which i never managed to get a single one recovering.
Ha! We're doing OK down in the tavern, but one of the recruits of a dwarven siege stuck outside my gates has sunk into depression. Nice to see that works. :)Hm, that's going to be an issue with infiltrators, even though visitors have been fixed so they don't arrive in army numbers.
There was a close call which threatened the stress relief inducing atmosphere. One of the dogs in the tavern turned on a dwarven bard when the siege from their civ turned up. Managed to clear away the remains after the mercs had finished with him without too many dorfs noticing.
@tussock:
- Unable to acquire doesn't mean economy, but getting trinkets to wear (unless that's being extravagant, in which case it's getting nice clothes: I have trouble keeping track of which one is which).
- Lack of decent meals now means not eating/drinking favorite items, and you're unlikely to be able to satisfy more than a small percentage of the population given the complete randomness of their favorites. Cooking quality doesn't have any practical use any more (apart from buying out caravans).
- Away from friends/family: Largely broken, as they're incapable of seeking out friend and family, socializing with whoever they happen to end up next to instead. Friend group burrowing might help.
:Yes, as far as I've determined the relations list is ordered based on relation strength, and I've used that as a progress meter for maritial encouragement facility treatments.
Each of them has the other at the top of their list of acquaintances (didn't start like that, guess it's in order of preference) and they seek each other out in various different parts of the complex after sleeping or wandering off in search of a goblet.
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Yes, I was surprised. There's more going on than just them being in the same tavern zone longer than anyone else and accidentally ruining into each other (although that's probably part of it).:Yes, as far as I've determined the relations list is ordered based on relation strength, and I've used that as a progress meter for maritial encouragement facility treatments.
Each of them has the other at the top of their list of acquaintances (didn't start like that, guess it's in order of preference) and they seek each other out in various different parts of the complex after sleeping or wandering off in search of a goblet.
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Interesting that you've seen them seeking each other out, since that's not what I've seen. However, with tons of bards around to spend the relations points on, there won't be much progress between the dorfs if the points are spread evenly, but if they actually do seek each other out they should increase their relations a bit faster. It's possible to measure their progress with scripts, and it would be possible to compare that to visitor relation progress.
On the other hand, as shown in my previous fortress (though it was in 44.10), they die (alcohol poisoning i guess) on a regular basis,
Current fortress fatality by alcohol rate is 0.On the other hand, as shown in my previous fortress (though it was in 44.10), they die (alcohol poisoning i guess) on a regular basis,
If the population is big enough, there is no alcohol poisoning even with performers assigned (though I'm not sure about actual tavernkeeps, since I don't assign them). I have never had alcohol poisoning, despite half of population spending entire time in the tavern.
My understanding of trinket grabbing is that the main method by which dorfs claim trinkets is by hauling them, in which case the ones wearing trinkets should mainly be the ones with trinket hauling enabled (whatever hauler category that is). I haven't investigated that claim personally, though.Was just watching my stressed dwarf in the tavern. She has no labours enabled, but she just suddenly generated a pickup equipment job. Wandering off to the clothes pile she grabbed an elven cloak went off to her room and got changed. Now she's real happy about trying on a superior item.
When grabbing trinkets was introduced, there was a bug that cause dorfs to grab other items they liked, like pots made of particular materials they liked, and other heavy things. One of the amusing side effects of introducing a new system.
Yes, unfortunately it looks like captain of the guard position is oddly hyper stressful for no obvious reason for any dwarves after a couple of years.
And most of those don't seem to be linked to any "gob dying" memory, the most negative are "feeling lonely" (it looks like those meeting hall aren't really working, dwarves don't seem to gain much friendship anymore) and there are a lot of positive source of thoughts, so i have no idea what is really going on for those.Something i am noticing is that the dwarves don't seem to make friends like they used to in the past, i'm not sure if it's because i've been having some bad luck and all my dwarves are probably generated as complete loners, but on my previous long lived 44.10 depression fort , i noticed too that making friend was actually happening only rarely.
With of course the fortresses having meeting areas that dwarves get into regularly.
Maybe there's also a problem there, as despite i see dwarves going to the meeting halls and sculpture garden, most of them still have the lonely/no family unhappy thought regularly coming.
My understanding of trinket grabbing is that the main method by which dorfs claim trinkets is by hauling them, in which case the ones wearing trinkets should mainly be the ones with trinket hauling enabled (whatever hauler category that is). I haven't investigated that claim personally, though.Was just watching my stressed dwarf in the tavern. She has no labours enabled, but she just suddenly generated a pickup equipment job. Wandering off to the clothes pile she grabbed an elven cloak went off to her room and got changed. Now she's real happy about trying on a superior item.
When grabbing trinkets was introduced, there was a bug that cause dorfs to grab other items they liked, like pots made of particular materials they liked, and other heavy things. One of the amusing side effects of introducing a new system.
Shouldn't be too hard to get trinket lovers to do that too.
A bit worried about my dorf though. Almost everything she's wearing is sized for elves. Probably coincidence. Last bunch of clothes came in as part of an elf ambush.
For acquiring items needs, I have a trinket stockpile (without bins) and periodically dump it and then reclaim it after it has been dumped. I have a manager task to make new trinkets when my stockpile isn't full (but just one a day so that I don't end up scheduling 50 new trinkets every time I dump them). Slightly micro managey but not too bad as long as I remember to do it a few times a season. It helps if the trinket stockpile is near the dump.What about having two trinket stockpiles and disable one while enabling the other rather than dumping, or even link them to give one way and then the other? Obviously that won't use refuse hauling, but whatever category trinkets fall into. I tend to have the single dumping target being used for prisoner stripping...
From my testing, while my reports aren't exactly recognised i can confirm that meeting halls and statue gardens are insufficient because dwarves will be constantly admiring the furniture (x5 times), and they need cramped small rooms out of sight of all furniture within burrows to get the nessecary space away from everything to socialise with only each other around.
This is caused because of a fatal oversight of the needs system to never cap off when full or (overflow) their satedness to starve off the need again, causing dwarves to aggressively and sporadically follow up on strong needs whever they are close to the source of one instead of fill up the need, stop and do something else. DFhack reveals this and two gods and/or double ardent workship makes worshipping a pernament activity (while it is still very exhilarating for them to do so maybe there is a small plus to mentally immune religious dwarves)
edit : works great for ... the animals that are all gathering to meet&greet at the meeting designated zone in the empty room i just ordered mined.
Unfortunately none of the dwarves is putting a foot in there, temple/tavern/library are too attractive in comparison :/ (the off duty soldiers are even prefering to spare by themselves on their free time than actually going to a meeting zone :D )
But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.edit : works great for ... the animals that are all gathering to meet&greet at the meeting designated zone in the empty room i just ordered mined.
Unfortunately none of the dwarves is putting a foot in there, temple/tavern/library are too attractive in comparison :/ (the off duty soldiers are even prefering to spare by themselves on their free time than actually going to a meeting zone :D )
Perhaps, try out designating a meeting area from a statue placed behind an internal door (to hide it from the dwarven eyes) and making that area a part of the tavern?
But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.
So far it looks the only socializing i see dwarves doing is in the tavern, but still friendship, grudges and marriage happen very rarely, not really something you can count on to help with the "lonely" and "far from family" stresses.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8584
But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.
So far it looks the only socializing i see dwarves doing is in the tavern, but still friendship, grudges and marriage happen very rarely, not really something you can count on to help with the "lonely" and "far from family" stresses.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8584
No, I mean, in that empty room you carved out. Make a 1x2 tile niche with a statue blocked off by a door. Set the door to internal and forbid it, designate a meeting area from the statue, covering the room you prepared. Assign location to the room. The dwarves should treat that room as a tavern and won't be able to see the statue. Not sure about the door, however - it might be a problem. May try to designate the room first and then block the statue off with something else... not sure what, though. Alternatively, you can try to place the statue niche with a door behind a corner of a single-tile corridor. The dwarves will occasionally see the door, but only the ones who walk around the corner.
Looks like this socializing setup works
first i got rid of the pets that couldn't be caged due to close attachement to their owners, sorry to little buggers but that's ok i have a backup save ;)
- Dwarves with the 'Feels uncomfortable around others different to themselves' have more negative reactions to opposing or different beliefs & require more likeminded dwarves (in such a hot pot of dwarves though cliques emerge), and this is just set by dwarven culture, which the desires of the players for dwarves to be social contradicts partially, as does alcohol
- Secondly #0010812 leans towards the possibility that in a connection to the over-fixation on furniture and activities distracting from talking, we've talked about, that emotional priorities sideline the multiple possible emotions to choose 1 relevant one as the state.
> In other interesting need fufillment news, dwarves in a squad and off schedule (clear order for a season or a few months) will run individual drills & training in their squads room in order to fufill their own needs for learning, fighting & martial prowess which makes them feel more well-rounded without depriving them of fortress activities like visiting the inn and praying.[/list]
Edit- whoops, sorry i didn't read your previous comments Robsoie on the topic, yeah the passive training/rest is nice isnt it?
Image attached: My meeting hall for eating prepared meals stored in the 'community hall' in the previous screenshot is just across the hall, everything is centered on the same layer with some deluxe 3x3 size abodes and some 1x3's homes out of shot.
slightly offtopic::Or convert the above ground fishing spots to dwarf friendly environments with access tunnels and roofs.
That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
slightly offtopic:
how about safety against raids? Is it somehow possible to fish indoors i.e. let fish through but no goblins or elves?
@FantasticDorf: Are you sure this applies to vermin "fish"? It contradicts what I've heard so far that vermin fish presence is tied to 16 * 16 tiles (plus water, of course), and that they don't replenish. I don't have much first hand experience, though.
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slightly offtopic:
how about safety against raids? Is it somehow possible to fish indoors i.e. let fish through but no goblins or elves?
If you have a brook, you can easily wall it off on the surface - the dwarves will be able to fish in it, but the invaders cannot pierce its "shell" to swim through.
Not sure how to go about it if you have a large river instead, though. I guess you can go through the effort and cover it all with drawbridges, only leaving it open in the secure areas where the fisherdwarves are.
Off-topic:I'd say no, since vermin are innumerable (excluding "fish", apparently).
Is it possible to depopulate vermin from an area? My last fort's bedrooms ended up being built in the caverns, and there were cave spiders popping up every now and then. If one were to assign a bunch of trappers, would it be feasible to remove all the cave spiders from the area? Would I have to make sure the area was completely inaccessible from the rest of the caverns, or would doors and a detour through several z-levels and back be sufficient?
I can say, while the stress issues regarding dead bodies seem to be resolved, my dwarves aren't making friends. Like, at all. Not a single one in the entire fort of 50 has made a new friend over the entire 3 years of this fortress's existence. The only ones who have friends are the starting 7.
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There's a fix strategy for friendship being formulated right now. Due out before the Big Wait. Rejoice.I can say, while the stress issues regarding dead bodies seem to be resolved, my dwarves aren't making friends. Like, at all. Not a single one in the entire fort of 50 has made a new friend over the entire 3 years of this fortress's existence. The only ones who have friends are the starting 7.XXXXX XXXXX
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The 35 tiles of empty down-dressed tavern like this (see above diagram & previous pictures) can service 70 dwarves in close contact because they will double stack in cramped conditions. Every dwarf visiting and lingering will be aware of other dwarves but only those with compatible facets will make friends because dwarves are intolerant of ideas different to their own individually more viciously than normal.
> this appears to be deliberate but maybe how interpersonally it affects dwarven social lives probably isn't, a oversight of the cultural model Toady gave default dwarves maybe.
But every dwarf citizen will have a different idea of a topic and clash until they find someone to stick to. I've had migrants other than the starting 7 form 1-2 friends irregularly and rolling up into 100 population, every 5 or so dwarves at least has 1 friend with each other. Nobody's married in 5 years but i guess it has to be a roll of fate for a dwarf to find a opposing mate they share the same ideals with.
I have noticed in my young and small world that some dorfs have massive families at the fort too. If you're testing in a pocket world, especially a young one, all your migrant dwarfs may be related into a couple of big families, and if you're in as a cousin you can't also be a friend.
Which is just another condition required to make friends, can't be part of the extended family, and I guess they're also looking at half the rest as a love interest instead of friendship until they get married, which if no one's getting married won't be helping.
Did the fort burrowing each migrant wave separately check for pre-existing family links? I wonder if they also preferentially spend time with family instead of trying to make friends? That could seriously hinder friendship making.
For those of you using Dwarf Therapist- I just got my first tantrum at 20.9k Stress (haggard & drawn). Oddly, he doesn't have a large number of memories in general, and the ones he does have appear pretty balanced...In dwarftherapist, you can see strength values for the emotions on the Emotions side panel. Some dwarfs are effected much more by certain things. I do not know how to bring up the list of emotions and strengths of just one dwarf, but you could click on each emotion of the Emotions list and with some guesswork, determine which where he is being effected the most. He might have some -100's for all those "lonely" thoughts. The Dwarf Details sidepage needs an Emotions tab for each dwarf...
Even with the new updates all that seems to be happening is that the tantrum spiral is slowing down. Half the fort is still on the verge of insanity and many of the rest still react negatively to everyone around them.Have you checked that the skeletons that aren't hauled aren't 'f'orbidden or 'd'umped with no dump zone active? Have you verified the stockpile is a 'y' corpse stockpile rather than an 'r' refuse/corpse sub stockpile? Also note that coffins are used for citizens, pets, and some random selection of visitors, but most visitors and all invaders are exempt from burial.
Or the the corpses that they have somehow not hauled despite being given coffins and a corpse stockpile 10 years ago. That are still in the dining hall and bedrooms. That they still refuse to clean up. These dorfs would literally rather hunt trolls of their own accord than haul the goblin skeletons out of their beds and chairs.
Even with the new updates all that seems to be happening is that the tantrum spiral is slowing down. Half the fort is still on the verge of insanity and many of the rest still react negatively to everyone around them.I found that the moment my militia commander who feels nothing at seeing bodies, was left alone with the corpse mound (everyone else being safely in an evacuation burrow) he began hauling them quickly out of sight. That corpse mound had been ignored for the past couple of months despite it taking up most of our front porch. I suspect you've got a lot of stressed haulers who are getting jobs to haul bodies away, then canceling due to horror (or extreme 'unease').
Or the the corpses that they have somehow not hauled despite being given coffins and a corpse stockpile 10 years ago. That are still in the dining hall and bedrooms. That they still refuse to clean up. These dorfs would literally rather hunt trolls of their own accord than haul the goblin skeletons out of their beds and chairs.
Corpse hauling is a thing I've been wondering about with these stress changes. It seems to me the best thing to do is to disable corpse hauling for everyone except military dwarves. If you let the general population do it, you get a bunch of "canceled haul: horrifed" messages. I saw this even just from cleaning up after a small goblin siege.They only get horrified if there's a bunch of your own dorf's body parts mixed in there. Dead strangers, even dead friendly visitors, only give unease in 44.12. More likely they're recalling the slaughter of their buddies.
Careful placement of corpse piles helps too. The dorf carrying the corpse can drop it anywhere along the way if a bad memory hits, and will forbid it when doing so, which if it's a dorf corpse going to the corpse pile before heading to a free coffin, may result in it being placed in a high traffic area for some time. Pump training builds willpower outside the military, so you may be able to make dedicated non-military corpse haulers with some fiddling.Very good point, I hadn't even considered the potential chaos of a random body part being left en route to the stockpile. Assuming that the majority of Dwarf corpses will be in either the front lawn or cavern entrance, you could make a separate stockpile nearby, with the path unlocked only as needed. From inside the stockpile, a tunnel can be dug directly to the graveyard, thus minimizing exposure for the rest of the populace.
Ideally a separate dorf corpse pile that drags corpses away from high traffic areas, perhaps with it's own dedicated stairwell, out of sight, and in line with all the coffins so they don't cross back. Note that dorf corpse piles may fill up with individual parts from dorfs who will never make it to a coffin for whatever reason, so do need to be quite large.
Dorf can also be quite upset by their own pet corpses, and will almost certainly be horrified by a spouse or child corpse, so there's probably room for dedicated corpse collectors, or just general willpower training in the fort. The latter for everything else that goes wrong, really.
More than half of my fort is going crazy and depressed for no apparent reason. Based on their emotions description, they should be happy as shit. Instead they are all haggard and suicidal. The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one". This is ridiculous.Interesting. How long has the fortress been going?
More than half of my fort is going crazy and depressed for no apparent reason. Based on their emotions description, they should be happy as shit. Instead they are all haggard and suicidal. The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one". This is ridiculous.Interesting. How long has the fortress been going?
What are you doing to try to counter bad stress?
Do they get enough time to spend at the temple? That usually produces the best thoughts possible. Maybe set up a temple for each God worshipped in the fortress?More than half of my fort is going crazy and depressed for no apparent reason. Based on their emotions description, they should be happy as shit. Instead they are all haggard and suicidal. The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one". This is ridiculous.Interesting. How long has the fortress been going?
What are you doing to try to counter bad stress?
The fortress is 5 years old. They've got lots of booze, temples, books, tavern, goblets & mugs, all that stuff. And still they are whining about stress. I think I will build a special chill out room for stressed dwarves. With grizzly bears.
...The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one"...Are these the most common negative emotions, or the strongest ones? Usually the sum of the "lack of decent meals" and "away from loved ones" emotions is less than the effect of one "horrified from seeing a dead goblin" emotion.
...The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one"...Are these the most common negative emotions, or the strongest ones? Usually the sum of the "lack of decent meals" and "away from loved ones" emotions is less than the effect of one "horrified from seeing a dead goblin" emotion.
DwarfTherapist shows the number in the tooltip for each dwarf (see about 6 posts back in this thread, there is an image of the emotion info without the numbers. That is where the numbers will show, unless you changed the settings in the manner as I did). The numbers are likely available through DFHack but I don't know how to get them there....The worst emotions they have are "lack of decent meals" or "being away from loved one"...Are these the most common negative emotions, or the strongest ones? Usually the sum of the "lack of decent meals" and "away from loved ones" emotions is less than the effect of one "horrified from seeing a dead goblin" emotion.
How can you tell this? Is there some way to see the numeric values for each currently active emotion?
And it has worked greatly, after 2 years on that fortress i have more than 50 dwarves and all of them have multiple friends.
Looks like making very early in your fortress those kind of small tavern setup is really a must .
- 'Caught in the rain' is currently the single strongest personality changer, sometimes causing multiple core values to be rewritten.Supposedly thoughts are categorized now, is there any positive weather thought? Sun and rain are bad, never seen a snow related thougth... mist? Can mist counteract rain by occupying that slot? Edit: or mist+miasma as their own thing?
- It is possible to have a Dwarf with 'doesn't really care about anything anymore' without being completely insane, though often stress for that Dwarf is still quite high.Still mostly a military thing, probably linked to discipline. Edit: my no carers are generally unstressed
- Lack of decent meals now means not eating/drinking favorite items, and you're unlikely to be able to satisfy more than a small percentage of the population given the complete randomness of their favorites. Cooking quality doesn't have any practical use any more (apart from buying out caravans).There is important SCIENCE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.0) hidden in the utilities forum. Cooking seems to be the difference between a pretty decent and a legendary meal, and booze cooking lets your dwarf get a happy food thought from eating something he likes to drink. Helps a lot since drink preferences are not quite as vast as foodstuffs.
> As a important note, managers & nobles with [MEET_WORKERS] DO work to conduct meetings and de-stress dwarves a bit from red (yelled at) and yellow arrows (crying on) needs but all dwarves without migrated & embark assigned social skills (or newly born children) will not develop enough to replace experts posessing CONSOLER & PACIFIER skills.I go trough mayors at an alarming pace in unhappy forts, getting yelled at is an unhappy thought for a newbie consoler, maybe a good one would be satisfied that they could help?
Children are categorically the lonliest having no recognisation of even other children, but Toady can't test this because of how long they take to grow up (given that many of his tests are on the starting 7 with already developed skills), many users i've read about have lonely children because the problems are fortress home-grown.But playing seems to provide both needs reduction and happiness that can counteract all but the strongest problems. Until a parent dies or they grow up.
Focus boosts skill rolls, accuracy, speed, etc. 150% at max, 50% at min, iirc (though internal accuracy values and such seem to be actually far more apart.)Thank you, I really should read FotF more. There goes my theory, not that the boost isn't nice.
There's a comment by Toady in the previous FotF thread somewhere.
Is anyone else having problems with the happyness of mercenaries in particular? They apparently get unhappy thoughts from not crafting, lack of romance and witnessing death and there's not much I can do about that. I also think they do not pray, which makes things only worse.I've seen mercenaries pray. Is your temple open to visitors?
Battlefield clean up are still a big problem for the dwarves fragile psyche.
After raiding gob pits enough to finally have them attacking me in retaliation (as i wasn't at 80 pop for a regular invasion from them), there was a massive amount of gob, beak dogs and trolls corpses and body parts everywhere.
The cleaning took a long long time (playing without dfhack) , and during it 5 dwarves fell into depression.
Still fortunately it's only a small amount in my fort and there's near 70 dwarves holding up so far, but considering everyone was kept roughly happy until that point, it looks like those cleanings are still a heavy hit on the stress level.
Battlefield clean up are still a big problem for the dwarves fragile psyche.
After raiding gob pits enough to finally have them attacking me in retaliation (as i wasn't at 80 pop for a regular invasion from them), there was a massive amount of gob, beak dogs and trolls corpses and body parts everywhere.
The cleaning took a long long time (playing without dfhack) , and during it 5 dwarves fell into depression.
Still fortunately it's only a small amount in my fort and there's near 70 dwarves holding up so far, but considering everyone was kept roughly happy until that point, it looks like those cleanings are still a heavy hit on the stress level.
Just got a second big invasion, managed to destroy it and the clean up lead to 6 dwarves getting haggard/oblivious due to depression of the cleanup.
That's starting to get really annoying to lose dwarves this way considering there was absolutely no problem for any dwarves between those 2 battle cleanups (and all the dwarves are in military since day 1 so i guess they all have some discipline level). It looks like those cleanup skyrocket whatever stress/depression level dwaves are going through.
Or it could be because those clean takes damn too long to get finished that dwarves may then skip everything that could make them happy or "normal" and so the stress level rise without anything that can be done about it if you want to really clean up the fields.
Anyways, it's really broken.
Ahem. But also, lots of the cleaners end up feeling nothing from seeing bodies by the third sight and you can just use those ones and turn it off for the more delicate dorfs. Maybe, @Robsie, if you could science up what personality traits are making the difference there, could even sort them in advance through the therapist ....
+ SC
XXS
+XXX
++ +
+SSSSSSS
+SSSSSSS
+XXX XXX
Dwarves may haul entire bins full of items, or items individually. However, they are not smart enough to bin items in order to carry them, so this may end in numerous needless trips from deceased enemies to your fortress, each dwarf carrying one item at a time. To counter this:
Place a small bin stockpile and a general purpose stockpile near the battlefield.
When every spoil has been binned, remove the stockpiles, mark the filled bins for dumping, deactivate your usual garbage zone and create a new one in your fortress.
When everything has been moved, reclaim your dumped items and restore your garbage zones as usual.
Maybe using blunt weapons instead of edged weapons helps reducing the mess?I didn't thought in focusing my military in warhammers, this should indeed "cut" on the insane amount of body parts flying around.
What annoys me most about this right now is my dorf's insistance on hauling dump marked corpses and bits to the corpse pile first before dumping them much later when stockpile jobs are fewer. Corpse hauling is bad enough without doing it twice you idiots!
QuoteMaybe using blunt weapons instead of edged weapons helps reducing the mess?I didn't thought in focusing my military in warhammers, this should indeed "cut" on the insane amount of body parts flying around.
But aren't free use of warhammer increase the amount of tooths flying all over the map ?
As if so it should very likely balance out with the sword cutting limbs unfortunately when it comes to dwarves focusing all their time in hauling one tooth by one tooth and so not taking any to balance their needs with your fortress facilities.
Hopefully this is going to improve before Toady go through the dark time of the next "big wait".
QuoteMaybe using blunt weapons instead of edged weapons helps reducing the mess?I didn't thought in focusing my military in warhammers, this should indeed "cut" on the insane amount of body parts flying around.
But aren't free use of warhammer increase the amount of tooths flying all over the map ?
As if so it should very likely balance out with the sword cutting limbs unfortunately when it comes to dwarves focusing all their time in hauling one tooth by one tooth and so not taking any to balance their needs with your fortress facilities.
But I wish we had the ability to burn corpses in a pire or something like that to at least avoid miasma, and maybe making corpses something less recognizable as a sentient being and not so traumatizing to handle for the average dwarf.Minecart dump into magma. You'll have to manually dump anything that won't fit in a minecart, e.g. FBs.
But I wish we had the ability to burn corpses in a pire or something like that to at least avoid miasma, and maybe making corpses something less recognizable as a sentient being and not so traumatizing to handle for the average dwarf.Minecart dump into magma. You'll have to manually dump anything that won't fit in a minecart, e.g. FBs.
I had in mind something without that much setup. Unless you rush to the magma sea or have a volcano embark, magma should be avaible long before the fortress starts being sieged. Also, I don't see the advantages of minecart dumping over atom smashing.Magma's more dwarvenly, though. You could always drop them in a deep pit at first and then apply magma later. Benefit of minecart is that you can automatically sort out just the refuse.
I'm thinking right now in the possibility of just channeling a big pit where the battle was fought, designate it as a dumping zone and just dump there whatever is not already in the pit and then just build a floor over it. You can't collect the spoils this way, but if you have most corpses already lying together it should avoid most hauling which seems to be the biggest problem right now.
Edit: I tried it. Less helpful than I thought it would be since dwarves refuse to dump corpses which are not properly stockpiled, and if you do design a stockpile over the corpses and body parts that remain stacked outside the pit they will first un-stack them before dumping. So, I think this is only worthy if you desgin a pit wherever there are stacked bodies/parts.
Also, my fort is about 220 dwarves so probably just one clothesmaker isn't enough and with more of them it's possible that this kind of thoughts were much less prevalent.
Extravagant is the clothes one, iirc (easy to fulfil with military)What does the military comment mean? Something with uniforms or just aquisition of fresh goblin rags? This need seems to work just right with my playstyle, bit of a boost from the stuff they grab anyway without any jumping through micromanagement hoops.
Needs more Science. Takes a year or so sometimes for the horror to manifest itself as a love of revelry, and from what I've observed, it seems to reduce stress, or at least stop the bad thoughts building more stress. But I don't have a huge amount of data there due to the time it takes (and because I play kind of recklessly).Extravagant is the clothes one, iirc (easy to fulfil with military)What does the military comment mean? Something with uniforms or just aquisition of fresh goblin rags? This need seems to work just right with my playstyle, bit of a boost from the stuff they grab anyway without any jumping through micromanagement hoops.
The big thing I read these days is that dwarves stop dwelling on something once it changes their personality. Makes sense but I needed it spelled out.
For extravagance, I've witnessed dwarves with no labors enabled solving that for themselves so no micro needed there. Acquiring still seems to require hauling though.ALL my dwarves are bright green for best extravagace unless jailed, no matter how busy. I have no clue how the replace-clothing soldiers even manage that. Put something in their cabinet maybe?
I have a hunch that military dwarves equipping armor/weapons counts towards the extravagant need, for some reason. My military dwarves also have this need met, but have no extra owned objects, which points to the fortress-provided armor satisfying the need. I think that the game might include any worn/equipped item for this need, regardless of whether or not it is actually owned by the dwarf.Do your military uniforms include wearable Finished Goods like leather cloaks? In 43.05, those would fulfill needs, but the wearable Armor items did not. Trousers under greaves are also good.
It would be nice if dwarfs didn't try to equip all possible types of clothing. I typically only produce shoes, trousers, and shirts, but if invaders/merchants drop other clothing types my dwarfs will pick these up and wear them until they rot away (with all the mental scarring that results).
I've noticed that military dwarves tend to keep doing individual combat drills on their days off unless you hnassign the barrack. You could have a dwarf who desperately needs to socialize, but he will keep doing individual combat drills instead of going to the tavern. Not sure if this is a bug or not.In this case, the mechanic is working as intended, but causing problematic interactions with the new stress system. A dwarf that is Active but No Order will do whatever job it feels like. As a military Dwarf gets more experienced and accustomed to military lifestyle, they will want to spend free time training, whereas a raw recruit given time off will prefer to perform other jobs like crafting and hauling.
In this case, the mechanic is working as intended, but causing problematic interactions with the new stress system. A dwarf that is Active but No Order will do whatever job it feels like. As a military Dwarf gets more experienced and accustomed to military lifestyle, they will want to spend free time training, whereas a raw recruit given time off will prefer to perform other jobs like crafting and hauling.
Hm, I notice OP says "Unable to aquire something. <- oops, don't turn on the economy."Excellent, yes, those were mine and I have learned much since. :D
While I'm amused at the idea, in the middle of truthful statements probably should say "they need to obtain a craft; try having them haul some". You noted it later down, but I'm assuming newbies might read the thread.
Extravagant is the clothes one, iirc (easy to fulfil with military).
On a similar note, "Lack of decent meals. <- cooking seeds is something I need to stop." - should probably say "they need to eat their favourite food/booze, positioning matters (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171322.0)"
Iirc reading either unable to fight need was filled by merely seeing a wild non-benign animal, but haven't tested myself.
Ditto with "Being away from friends. <- the downside of making friends, they still need time off." should have "dwarves need to see friends and family, even if they don't have any".
@"Unknown if merry making requires a tavern, or if a regular dining hall will suffice.": Regular meeting zones will fulfil most, but not all related needs; some will be only fulfilled by proper group activities. I don't recall off the top of my head which were which (no longer few months into DF, can start forgetting things now).
Unexciting life. <- many dorfs like trouble, get them in the military.Watching a fight/brawl might work too, I'm often surprised at dwarves who recently had excitement where I didn't notice any.
Unable to aquire something. <- stockpiling goods lets them do this, either monthly production or some dump/reclaims.Circular stockpiles are my thing, one of them really small like 2 tiles to limit the number of pointless hauling jobs. (and occassional cleanowned all, since having stuff doesn't seem to matter, just getting it)
Not learning anything. <- LIBRARIES! And scholars to produce new things to learn in the long term.Hands-on learning counts too, give the jobs where skill doesn't matter to everyone who needs to learn and they get happy thoughts from becoming novice spinner. Not all books seem to provide learning, someone's letter to mum is just as useless as it sounds, science books seem most beneficial.
Unable to help anybody. <- everyone bringing him water and food avoids this one, most dorfs don't care.Most of mine do, but it decays slowly. If you need more such jobs, pump gyms are nice as they work until thirsty and hungry, often triggering water service.
Unable to pray to Kikrost. <- temples, just so important. Not at all optional, it's a big happy thought and they hate not getting it.
Then just make an omni temple and be done with it. Currently the only "benefit" of dedicated temples seems to be their ability to attract rabble in the form of monks, peddlers, and pilgrims, none of which have any use in the fortress (and also take up visitor slots from kinds you DO want). Oh, and "real" visitors that come for a real reason plus to visit a dedicated temple, where they'll go on a prayer bender to catch up of a life's worth of missed praying before getting to their actual reason for visiting.Unable to pray to Kikrost. <- temples, just so important. Not at all optional, it's a big happy thought and they hate not getting it.
Probably he most annoying to me. The game loves duplicating names of gods, so I don't know which "Kikrost" the particular dwarf has on his mind, and the game loves making dozens of obscure gods, with one or two worshippers most of them. It seems so pointless. It's almost like parody of DnD.
In this case, the mechanic is working as intended, but causing problematic interactions with the new stress system. A dwarf that is Active but No Order will do whatever job it feels like. As a military Dwarf gets more experienced and accustomed to military lifestyle, they will want to spend free time training, whereas a raw recruit given time off will prefer to perform other jobs like crafting and hauling.
Huh, didn't know that. Regardless it seems like unintended behaviour given the new system, keeping your military sane is a vary micromanagy task
Then just make an omni temple and be done with it. Currently the only "benefit" of dedicated temples seems to be their ability to attract rabble in the form of monks, peddlers, and pilgrims, none of which have any use in the fortress (and also take up visitor slots from kinds you DO want). Oh, and "real" visitors that come for a real reason plus to visit a dedicated temple, where they'll go on a prayer bender to catch up of a life's worth of missed praying before getting to their actual reason for visiting.Unable to pray to Kikrost. <- temples, just so important. Not at all optional, it's a big happy thought and they hate not getting it.
Probably he most annoying to me. The game loves duplicating names of gods, so I don't know which "Kikrost" the particular dwarf has on his mind, and the game loves making dozens of obscure gods, with one or two worshippers most of them. It seems so pointless. It's almost like parody of DnD.
@Rafatio: Tradition needs can be fulfilled by a tavern (though some needs can only be fulfilled by actively reciting, etc.). I have resident bards who has the need persistently unfettered (caused by their civs valuing tradition). Though given one is not, I suspect this one needs active participation, not just listening in.Thanks. I had a tavern of course, but a small 3xn one that only had a one tile strip as "dance floor", resulting in no dances. Not sure about music performances, storytelling worked. This dwarf was the only one who needed tradition and never fulfilled her need. And since the tiny tavern did nothing for the promised friend making anyway, my new fort has a big one again to accomodate all shows (but no tradition fans so far).
I'm sure I've missed some important issues, otherwise forums wouldn't be full of 'game is broken. fix now' posts. What's broken right now that should be fixed soon?Looks completeish, I would add "Dorfs don't take breaks *from* meeting needs either", bug 10676. I think the combination of these two breaks/needs things adds a lot to the annoyance of having to hold their hands through everything.
I have a modded race of dorfs who are happy to work outside and don't get effected at all by this despite having much weaker stress tolerance than regular dwarves.
It's been a while since I made them, I'll check the raws and see what I did. Most of them get 'happy to work outside, only grumbles mildly at bad weather'. Possibly the nature value, yes.I have a modded race of dorfs who are happy to work outside and don't get effected at all by this despite having much weaker stress tolerance than regular dwarves.
Which personality trait is this exactly? Or is it just the entity value of nature?
Most Dwarves react to sentient corpses with 'feeling uneasy' (but some are straight up 'horrified'). The relative effect of this feeling is variable. However, the effect does stack (see next point)There seems to be a definite difference now between sapient corpses of enemies (now 'uneasy' at worst) and civ members / visitors.
>'Caught in the rain' is currently the single strongest personality changer, sometimes causing multiple core values to be rewritten.I think maybe not. It may be coincidence but I haven't noticed any despair over being rained on at all and I'm mostly playing modded dorfs who on average enjoy being outside.
Do dwarves that love nature still get this?
>'Caught in the rain' is currently the single strongest personality changer, sometimes causing multiple core values to be rewritten.I think maybe not. It may be coincidence but I haven't noticed any despair over being rained on at all and I'm mostly playing modded dorfs who on average enjoy being outside.
Do dwarves that love nature still get this?
Some issues I have with the stress system for residents:If a merc is bored of military life and dreams of being a lumberjack they need to be banished. You're paying them to fight for you, remember? (Abstracted right now of course). No problem as they don't usually have relatives to take with them.
- Residents are subject to the same needs as citizens, but are unable to satisfy the ones that involve work, which means a fair bit of the limited interventions you're actually able to do can't be applied to them. I don't use mercs, but it ought to be even worse with them?
Funny you should mention, I was just testing both of these in my Jungle Fort, which has a lot of outdoors projects. I can confirm that a nature-loving personality is highly effective against outdoors stress, including rain. Dorfs who vomit due to cave adaptation are still cranky though, no matter how much they love trees. OP has been updated.>'Caught in the rain' is currently the single strongest personality changer, sometimes causing multiple core values to be rewritten.I think maybe not. It may be coincidence but I haven't noticed any despair over being rained on at all and I'm mostly playing modded dorfs who on average enjoy being outside.
Do dwarves that love nature still get this?
Yeah I agree. I am seeing miasma as the most common cause of personality changes, probably just due to it's common occurrence. Only once have I seen rained on, even though I do have outdoor meeting area and training. Also injury is another big one.
Thanks for confirming this. I make aboveground forts 90% of the time so that's a relief.Mind you, a Dorf's personality is random as random gets, so the odds of having a large number of nature-lovers is quite low. The few who do enjoy it should probably be assigned as wood cutters & herbalists. Building above ground still requires a significant amount of Dwarf power; best solution there is probably to limit your building time. Do it in bursts so that Dwarves have time to de-stress.
I think getting caught in the rain should almost never have any effect on personality. Having to constantly sleep outside in the rain is a different matter, but being rained on is pretty much a fact of life. Maybe we should be able to make umbrellas or water proofs from waxed pig tail cloth or something?100% agree. You'd think that Dwarves would already be impervious to rain, due to the sheer number of layers they tend to wear (hood, cloak, gloves, dress, dress, boots, dress).
- Cooking a favorite booze counts as drinking it
This doesn't appear to be correct.Oh derp. That's what I meant to say, eating a cooked booze counts towards favorite meals. Good catch!Quote- Cooking a favorite booze counts as drinking it
Eating a meal that contains a preferred drink ("minced dwarven ale") will result in a thought related to eating a good meal ("eating a fine dish") and satisfaction of the decent meals need ("unfettered after a good meal"), but no thoughts or need satisfaction related to drinks.
Huh, neat idea; though I was contemplating marking all desired prefs as requested goods (also gets around "want to eat giant lovebird heart in particular"). Should be relatively easy adaptation.I won't try requested goods as I can't test it (dead civ), but yes, that's definitely a good complement, but I think it will have to be a separate script, as it targets a different screen. Also, it probably needs a brake, or you can end up with ordering and buying quite a lot more of those hearts than you actually need.
A fair comparison to make here is 34.xx when I started playing. I lost a lot of fortresses to tantrum spirals. Was that better or worse than 44.12? Well, in some sense, you could tick the boxes of basic dwarf care and you were mostly good. Game-wise, it acted as a pretty good motivator to provide for your dwarves, to give them a proper dwarfy life. And it inspired dwarfy strategies for dealing with it (dwarven daycare FTW!). And there was a beautiful awful epicness to a proper tantrum spiral. It was decent way to lose.
Compare that to 44.12. Do any of the strategies oulined in this thread feel dwarfy? Does anyone think it likely that a player will invent a crazy magma-powered cat repeater that keeps dwarves from getting rained on? As it stands, it feels like this issue is decreasing player creativity instead of encouraging it.
...
A fair comparison to make here is 34.xx when I started playing. I lost a lot of fortresses to tantrum spirals. Was that better or worse than 44.12? Well, in some sense, you could tick the boxes of basic dwarf care and you were mostly good. Game-wise, it acted as a pretty good motivator to provide for your dwarves, to give them a proper dwarfy life. And it inspired dwarfy strategies for dealing with it (dwarven daycare FTW!). And there was a beautiful awful epicness to a proper tantrum spiral. It was decent way to lose.
Compare that to 44.12. Do any of the strategies oulined in this thread feel dwarfy? Does anyone think it likely that a player will invent a crazy magma-powered cat repeater that keeps dwarves from getting rained on? As it stands, it feels like this issue is decreasing player creativity instead of encouraging it.
I think you've really hit the nail on the here wrt to the biggest problem. Stress/insanity/depression/whatever certainly aren't bad, in fact they're probably desirable -- they're realistic, they provide a challenge, and they result in interesting fortresses and interesting events. The issue right now is where the stress is coming from, and how the player can (or cannot) deal with it.
Yes. The issues with dwarves not meeting needs properly is in the op. That's why this thread exists. So that they can be fixed. It's currently not working as intended.A fair comparison to make here is 34.xx when I started playing. I lost a lot of fortresses to tantrum spirals. Was that better or worse than 44.12? Well, in some sense, you could tick the boxes of basic dwarf care and you were mostly good. Game-wise, it acted as a pretty good motivator to provide for your dwarves, to give them a proper dwarfy life. And it inspired dwarfy strategies for dealing with it (dwarven daycare FTW!). And there was a beautiful awful epicness to a proper tantrum spiral. It was decent way to lose.
Compare that to 44.12. Do any of the strategies oulined in this thread feel dwarfy? Does anyone think it likely that a player will invent a crazy magma-powered cat repeater that keeps dwarves from getting rained on? As it stands, it feels like this issue is decreasing player creativity instead of encouraging it.
I think you've really hit the nail on the here wrt to the biggest problem. Stress/insanity/depression/whatever certainly aren't bad, in fact they're probably desirable -- they're realistic, they provide a challenge, and they result in interesting fortresses and interesting events. The issue right now is where the stress is coming from, and how the player can (or cannot) deal with it.
My biggest frustration at the moment is feeling like I need to spreadsheet the personal preferences of 150 individual dwarves just to achieve baseline satisfaction in a fortress where nothing is happening. Literally, I have a boring fortress. There are no other civs to attack me. I've had two wandering monsters stop by in five years. My caverns are closed off. My tavern gets no visitors. We get one caravan a year from a nearly dead civ with no sites, and I buy out all their clothes with the mass of rock crafts I make all year. Much of the population rotates through military service. I have a nice dining hall, a tavern... etc.
I would really like the population to be mostly self-maintaining when the majority of needs are met and there are no external triggers. I don't mind the isolated nutcase now and then that needs dealing with -- that's a proper dwarfy situation. And we had those pre-44.10. And they made for good stories. But seeing the cancer of red arrows slowly growing through the population is completely different.
For an experienced players, this is frustrating. But for new players? You've just gotten the basics down -- say you've turtled in behind some drawbridges and you just want the win of a moderately successful fort -- and then the slow burn of depression starts to take over. And they come to the forums or to the reddit sub and ask "What's happening, what do I do?" And you tell them about dwarf's social and emotional needs. And then tell them that there is no effective interface to manage that in vanilla. And maybe by then someone will have coded an interface into DFHack or DT, but the poor newbie is likely going to feel overwhlemed and give up at that point.
I play this game off and on, usually with long breaks so I come back and a few things have actually changed in it.Now it's not working properly. That's why we have this thread. To pinpoint exactly what's not working and why.
At the moment I feel like creating a water source at the top of the stairwell and watching them all drown.
Cannot keep the stress under control for whatever reason, it used to be socks. Socks were the big thing, we all know, we've all been there.
Now.... now what? I'm a fucking psychologist?
You then assign the workshop to only that dwarf and add a manager job for a craft that repeats once a month (or probably once a season is enough).
I got a save where a dwarf occasionally gets horrified and stops working because of seeing a goblin corpse I atomized two years ago. They're not reliving it either, it's a new memory every time. There are no loose teeth lying around either, when a dwarf approaches the refuse stockpile square where the goblin used to be, it has a chance to flip out.Do you have a save? That's an outright stress bug rather than any balance issue. Should be looked at asap.
I got a save where a dwarf occasionally gets horrified and stops working because of seeing a goblin corpse I atomized two years ago. They're not reliving it either, it's a new memory every time. There are no loose teeth lying around either, when a dwarf approaches the refuse stockpile square where the goblin used to be, it has a chance to flip out.Do you have a save? That's an outright stress bug rather than any balance issue. Should be looked at asap.
This might be a major contributor. Don't let dwarves be interrupted!
Now the performer has a skill level of 11 for both poet and speaker so there's no reason dwarves witnessing the performance should be receiving a negative thought.
If you want to completely ignore stress, just have DFHack run remove-stress (I think that's the right name but maybe no hyphen) every season or so. It can be automated, or you can just manually type it in. This lets you have a version without tantrum spirals without giving up missions etc.I play this game off and on, usually with long breaks so I come back and a few things have actually changed in it.Now it's not working properly. That's why we have this thread. To pinpoint exactly what's not working and why.
At the moment I feel like creating a water source at the top of the stairwell and watching them all drown.
Cannot keep the stress under control for whatever reason, it used to be socks. Socks were the big thing, we all know, we've all been there.
Now.... now what? I'm a fucking psychologist?
There are workarounds mentioned in the thread, but if it's currently unplayable for you, don't play. Wait until this release arc is finished when the game should (hopefully, maybe....) be in a more fun state (at least when it comes to stress, anyway).
The 15 minutes cleaning up after a battle where a couple of dwarfs died (previous to this stress was uniform below 1000 for all dwarfs).Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The 15 minutes cleaning up after a battle where a couple of dwarfs died (previous to this stress was uniform below 1000 for all dwarfs).Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I had no idea it could rise exponentially. Having it rise linearly up to a foregone, unavoidable conclusion is bad enough.
Also this is how a tailor's brain looked like after an outpost liason hammered a wild parrot in the surface and a chained owl in the tavern. The non existent goblin body is referenced amongst the dead parrot tears.Never mind why there was an owl in the tavern.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Dfhack it is.
The 15 minutes cleaning up after a battle where a couple of dwarfs died (previous to this stress was uniform below 1000 for all dwarfs).Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I had no idea it could rise exponentially. Having it rise linearly up to a foregone, unavoidable conclusion is bad enough.
Also this is how a tailor's brain looked like after an outpost liason hammered a wild parrot in the surface and a chained owl in the tavern. The non existent goblin body is referenced amongst the dead parrot tears.Never mind why there was an owl in the tavern.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Dfhack it is.
Was just coming to this conclusion as well... as the very nice person suggested above - use DFHACK - however, I have watched my dwarves getting back to haggard from max-unstressed-ale-for-everyone in a single year. I really hope it's not going to go faster, otherwise you can't even automate with DFHACK because they will spiral way too quickly for the automation to catch - unless there's a DAILY time interval - I will look that up next.
sigh.
Was just coming to this conclusion as well... as the very nice person suggested above - use DFHACK - however, I have watched my dwarves getting back to haggard from max-unstressed-ale-for-everyone in a single year. I really hope it's not going to go faster, otherwise you can't even automate with DFHACK because they will spiral way too quickly for the automation to catch - unless there's a DAILY time interval - I will look that up next.The repeat command in dfhack can run daily or even every tick (https://dfhack.readthedocs.io/en/stable/docs/_auto/base.html#repeat (https://dfhack.readthedocs.io/en/stable/docs/_auto/base.html#repeat)).
sigh.
It's kind of counter-intuitive, but as long as we are talking about accelerating returns and geometric progression, speed doesn't really matter. The end result is always inf or approaches inf, and the process will always achieve the end result no matter what. Speed only determines the point in the graph where it goes straight up.I can't see any exponential trends, just extreme trends. I altered my graph as I realised I was using a square root y scale giving an inaccurate impression of the changes. With a linear scale my last 4 hours of play look like this:
They might actually have some sort of vulture phobia.
Obviously the poet or speaker dwarves can cause bad thoughts to dwarves when performing in a temple... so I will just switch to a different performer. This definitely seems like a bug.Now the performer has a skill level of 11 for both poet and speaker so there's no reason dwarves witnessing the performance should be receiving a negative thought.
Some people/dwarves are philistines? Did you check into the dwarves preferences/beliefs? I haven't had an issue with performers that I have noticed.
My dwarves until i give them some discipline training recount deaths as virtually (aka-literally) recent.Hmm maybe that is why I am having more luck with my current fort. Even given the vulture issues, my average stress is -3000 or so, and the majority are around 0 most of the time. Things I have done differently this time: weather is off (probably a big one given the next item), all dwarves are in squads and they train outside two months a year (to keep cave adaptation low). I did notice that discipline was above 0 for a lot of my dwarves, I guess the training is the cause.
A silver lining of the current stress system is that stress and idleness tend to be pretty heavily correlated, so if you sort Dwarf Therapist by happiness when assigning new jobs you can easily increase efficiency and reduce unhappiness in one fell swoop.
A silver lining of the current stress system is that stress and idleness tend to be pretty heavily correlated, so if you sort Dwarf Therapist by happiness when assigning new jobs you can easily increase efficiency and reduce unhappiness in one fell swoop.
Correlated in which direction? I've assumed overwork induces stress due to reduced time to meet needs, but certain dwarves have the need to keep busy.
At least making babies satisfies the need for being with family (felt love talking with the spouse, with a corresponding fulfilled need). Encouraged baby making involves burrowing the couple in their room with nothing to do, so there's no Socializing involved.
Do we know how much consoler and pacifier reduce stress? Could it be worth it to embark with one dwarf who has very high consoler and pacifier skills and who hopefully gets elected mayor? Actual dwarf therapist.You don't need any "hopefully" there, as you can replace mayors, although you have to do it after every election, which take place in the middle of the summer.
1. Dwarves have sensitivites to different stressors, based on personality traits. Some of them seem to end up "stacking" or even interacting synergistically with each other, so that in some dwarves a given stressor has a stress effect that is dramatically disproportionate to the severity of the event (such as getting rained on).
Having the whole fortress on vacation month once or twice a year help a lot. Burrow everyone in temple/bar/bed for a month.I've started doing this. Just be sure to relieve your tavern keeper of duties if your tavern is still small (if you're playing with tavern keeper Fun on). I sometimes forget that more people aren't dead because my tavern keeper/manager is usually too busy to focus on killing them all...
Though this doesn't fix the problem as I still have to expell some dwarf, but the number of dwarf needed to be expel reduced a lot since I adopted the policy.
Having the whole fortress on vacation month once or twice a year help a lot. Burrow everyone in temple/bar/bed for a month.I've started doing this. Just be sure to relieve your tavern keeper of duties if your tavern is still small (if you're playing with tavern keeper Fun on). I sometimes forget that more people aren't dead because my tavern keeper/manager is usually too busy to focus on killing them all...
Though this doesn't fix the problem as I still have to expell some dwarf, but the number of dwarf needed to be expel reduced a lot since I adopted the policy.
Ok so reading the replies regarding babies - is all of this stuff working as intended?Stress is currently not working as intended, no. Relationship forming without extreme micromanagment being one of the things that needs fixing.
I certainly hope not.
Ok so reading the replies regarding babies - is all of this stuff working as intended?Stress is currently not working as intended, no. Relationship forming without extreme micromanagment being one of the things that needs fixing.
I certainly hope not.
My fortress has dwarves pumping out children at reasonable rate (one every a year or two). Though I did do the 'matchmaking' to get the few largest meanest dwarves to br.. marry.
But after that I don't do anything special to them. But my fortress got around ten something days fort wide vacation every season which everyone spend their days very close together, training, praying, and getting drunk.
Just a thought.
The 2 babies my people DID produce were at the start of the game.
This is the part of the game where you're just using a dormitory.
Might experiment with some shared bedrooms....
Just a thought.
The 2 babies my people DID produce were at the start of the game.
This is the part of the game where you're just using a dormitory.
Might experiment with some shared bedrooms....
I've noticed female guards produced kids more often and more reliably than other dwarves.
Both, I have to micro manage the burrows because everyone is in militia and prefer to individually train during the down time despite more pressing need.
So I have to let them train for a few days to fill the martial arts need, then remove the barrack from the "R&R" burrow so that those dorfs get to their praying and drinking.
I've only had a problem with a few dwarves who were unusually susceptible to stress. My current fort is 34 years old, and I've had to get rid of only 1 dwarf due to incurable stress. I do nothing to micromanage their stress levels.
Here are two random dwarves I picked out of the tavern for no reason:
https://imgur.com/a/KALoHW6
You'll see a lot of positive thoughts about bedroom furniture, praying, partying, hanging out with children, etc. completely overwhelming the negative thoughts.
I'll also note that most of my dwarves have personality traits about always being in love and/or being filled with joy, due to gaining siblings or offspring. This may be Toady's subtle hint that the playerbase's enduring contempt for children is misplaced. Children provide tons of positive thought opportunities, and can completely change a dwarf's personality for the better
- Wandering: Fishing and Hunting. You must wait until they actually return with the kill for hunting. For fishing, the need will be met right after catching a fish.
Is it possible to weaponize stress, such as making a holocaust museum on the map edge armies tend to come from? Will invaders that have been polderized by a set of bridges break from rain/heat/thirst and go crazy?Invaders will go crazy yes. Not just beserk, but full on running around babbling breakdowns. Shut the door and let invaders hang out in the rain with the corpses of the last invasion and they'll soon break. Especially during year-long sieges.
Is it possible to weaponize stress, such as making a holocaust museum on the map edge armies tend to come from? Will invaders that have been polderized by a set of bridges break from rain/heat/thirst and go crazy?
Loving the discussion and new information :D I have just returned from a long respite, but will attempt to sort & add all of the new stuff tomorrow.Don't forget to clearly indicate what's 'broken and would improve matters if fixed' for Toady's reference from 'how to workaround currently broken stuff' for players.
Does this mean dwarves with hauling labor disabled, like scholars and high-value craftsmen, will never obtain trinkets unless they're dumped and reclaimed in an organized manner?Yes, seems that way.
Also does the presence of temples soft-limit the amount of time the dwarves spend socializing?
- Socializing to fulfill the need to socialize doesn't require a burrow: a tavern is sufficient. In the tavern they socialize at random, so friendship and family formation requires intervention to happen normally, rather than as abnormal events, as indicated. It might work with just a tavern if visitors are banned and the fortress population is small.
I do notice that there is almost never a time when someone is not reciting poetry, so maybe that's a distraction. Anybody have better luck with friends.
...For the clothes happy thought, in 43.05(?), my military dwarfs only received happy thoughts from the finished goods that were assigned to their uniforms (cloaks, trousers, dress, hoods, etc), and not from the armor items (helms, leggings, etc). Has this changed?
- There are two different needs to get stuff. One for trinkets and one for clothes. The clothes one seems to be satisfied by getting a new uniform armor piece.
...
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the slopes are half the problem. It's deceptively easy to get accelerating returns.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the slopes are half the problem. It's deceptively easy to get accelerating returns.
I think what might be missing in dwarven psyches is a normalizing force. Dwarves seem to be caught between the push-pull of good and bad thoughts. But in real life, humans and most mammals in general, will psychologically classify their current conditions as "normal" as long as they are consistent, and will be continually pulled back towards baseline neutral. Happy things happen, shitty things happen, but afterwards, things go "back to normal". A continuous stream of events can still push a person past the ability to normailze.
And it wouldn't be hard to implement either. Give each dwarf a "stabilty" attribute on a decent bell curve, and then a snibbet code that adds or subtracts a few stress points back to neutral every tick, modified by stability attribute. Just a thought.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the slopes are half the problem. It's deceptively easy to get accelerating returns.
I think what might be missing in dwarven psyches is a normalizing force. Dwarves seem to be caught between the push-pull of good and bad thoughts. But in real life, humans and most mammals in general, will psychologically classify their current conditions as "normal" as long as they are consistent, and will be continually pulled back towards baseline neutral. Happy things happen, shitty things happen, but afterwards, things go "back to normal". A continuous stream of events can still push a person past the ability to normailze.
And it wouldn't be hard to implement either. Give each dwarf a "stabilty" attribute on a decent bell curve, and then a snibbet code that adds or subtracts a few stress points back to neutral every tick, modified by stability attribute. Just a thought.
I don't know jack about psychology, but on a motor, generator or heater it's far easier to control the ups and downs than continually go towards a desired value. The former can be easily done with several lines of code or a crude analog device, the latter needs to run once per frame and needs a ton of code and input.
Aside from performance issues (finding an algorythm that can scale up to 200 instances and doesn't need to update every frame or every N frames) there is a subtle, insidious ideological question at work here.Wait, alters from what? Dwarf Fortress has always (except for a recent period when stress just didn't have any effect) had stressed suicidal dwarves killing their children, plunging the cute world of plump helmets and booze into suden dark tragedy. That's what it's known for and why a lot of people love it.
What sort of humanity are you trying to simulate? Should people, or rather dwarves, be able to accept challenge and survive against the odds, or is everything ultimately just a joke? The presence of suffering, post-traumatic stress and suicidal behavior completely alters the game's tone and presentation. It's like the main characters of a WW2 propaganda movie suddenly and unknowingly ended up at the front door of Auschwitz, or a bunch of foppish, whimsical byronian poets deciding to make a literature club in Sarnath.
...For the clothes happy thought, in 43.05(?), my military dwarfs only received happy thoughts from the finished goods that were assigned to their uniforms (cloaks, trousers, dress, hoods, etc), and not from the armor items (helms, leggings, etc). Has this changed?
- There are two different needs to get stuff. One for trinkets and one for clothes. The clothes one seems to be satisfied by getting a new uniform armor piece.
...
Aside from performance issues (finding an algorythm that can scale up to 200 instances and doesn't need to update every frame or every N frames) there is a subtle, insidious ideological question at work here.Wait, alters from what? Dwarf Fortress has always (except for a recent period when stress just didn't have any effect) had stressed suicidal dwarves killing their children, plunging the cute world of plump helmets and booze into suden dark tragedy. That's what it's known for and why a lot of people love it.
What sort of humanity are you trying to simulate? Should people, or rather dwarves, be able to accept challenge and survive against the odds, or is everything ultimately just a joke? The presence of suffering, post-traumatic stress and suicidal behavior completely alters the game's tone and presentation. It's like the main characters of a WW2 propaganda movie suddenly and unknowingly ended up at the front door of Auschwitz, or a bunch of foppish, whimsical byronian poets deciding to make a literature club in Sarnath.
Aside from performance issues (finding an algorythm that can scale up to 200 instances and doesn't need to update every frame or every N frames)
local function checkEveryUnitRegularlyForEvents()
for k,v in ipairs(df.global.world.units.active) do
dfhack.timeout((k%9)+1,'ticks',function() regularUnitChecks(v) end)
end
end
Aside from performance issues (finding an algorythm that can scale up to 200 instances and doesn't need to update every frame or every N frames)
For one thing, units (obviously) already do things every tick, so it's not much to add something else to do every tick.
Even were that not the case, if you have it happen every 100 ticks for each unit you can stagger it so that it's only two units per tick without too much trouble. Hell, I even use that trick in some of my mods which have to do things regularly:Code: [Select]local function checkEveryUnitRegularlyForEvents()
for k,v in ipairs(df.global.world.units.active) do
dfhack.timeout((k%9)+1,'ticks',function() regularUnitChecks(v) end)
end
end
where dfhack.timeout(x,type,func) calls function() after x [type]s have passed; in this example, it calls that anonymous function after k%9 ticks, where % is the modulo function. I think I could go with k%10, actually, since it runs every 10 ticks, but whatever.
Please don't take this as personal criticism, but having a for that goes through all units every n div 9 frames and does something with them is really bad.
I can only assume that the function that gets called if the condition is met also has a for in it.
function regularUnitChecks(unit)
if not unit or not df.unit.find(unit.id) then return false end
if unitHasCreatureClass(unit,'ZENKAI') and not unitInDeadlyCombat(unit) then
doZenkai(unit)
end
local super_saiyan_trigger=dfhack.script_environment('dragonball/super_saiyan_trigger')
super_saiyan_trigger.runSuperSaiyanChecks(unit.id)
if unitUndergoingSSJEmotion(unit) then
super_saiyan_trigger.runSuperSaiyanChecksExtremeEmotion(unit.id)
end
renameUnitIfApplicable(unit)
setUpNaturalTransformations(unit)
transformation.transformation_ticks(unit.id)
if not unitInCombat(unit) or unit.counters.unconscious>0 then
transformation.revert_to_base(unit.id)
end
--12 years of training, approx.
if ((dfhack.units.isDwarf(unit) and dfhack.units.isCitizen(unit)) or isAdventurer(unit)) and getPowerLevel(unit)>900000000 and not has_whis_event_called_this_round then
dfhack.run_script('dragonball/whis_event')
has_whis_event_called_this_round=true
end
if dfhack.persistent.get('DRAGONBALL_IMMORTAL/'..unit.id) then
dfhack.run_script('full-heal','-unit',unit.id,'-r')
end
endOther bug fixes/tweaksStress normalizing on its own is already a thing. According to the wiki, it's affected by Anxiety Propensity.
(*) Made stress levels drop faster the longer no stressors are applied
I've recently found out a ghost and a body belonging to the same creature can cause 2 different, independent triggers, so a single murder can cause a dwarf to get traumatized twice.
Oh, don't know if this has been noticed before. Militia commander is horrified seeing a snatcher die (as he buries his axe in its head...). They probably should have been stress nerfed along with other invaders.Essentially happened to me in my now previous fort (save corruption). My carpenter was OK for 18 years or so before the militia squad was sent into first first battle (to eliminate camping invaders from an entrance tunnel, when everyone else had retreated), which satisfied the need to fight, but resulted in a spiral into complete despair (100000 stress) over a couple of years. Didn't die due to having mooded, but the family need was impossible to satisfy, and the bugger wouldn't take masterworks FB bone rings when hauling them, got anxious from researching human behavior (or something similar), got mixed feelings from picking up new clothes, etc. 5 years later I finally managed to arrange for the bugger to haul a phyllite masterworks ring between two stockpiles in his room (favored material), at which time things turned around, and after a year or so the stress was down to 80000 (still regularly stumbling around obliviously, of course). Pity I wasn't able to see if a full recovery would happen.
Yeah, the thoughts had me fooled into thinking everything was Ok.Oh, don't know if this has been noticed before. Militia commander is horrified seeing a snatcher die (as he buries his axe in its head...). They probably should have been stress nerfed along with other invaders.Essentially happened to me in my now previous fort (save corruption). My carpenter was OK for 18 years or so before the militia squad was sent into first first battle (to eliminate camping invaders from an entrance tunnel, when everyone else had retreated), which satisfied the need to fight, but resulted in a spiral into complete despair (100000 stress) over a couple of years. Didn't die due to having mooded, but the family need was impossible to satisfy, and the bugger wouldn't take masterworks FB bone rings when hauling them, got anxious from researching human behavior (or something similar), got mixed feelings from picking up new clothes, etc. 5 years later I finally managed to arrange for the bugger to haul a phyllite masterworks ring between two stockpiles in his room (favored material), at which time things turned around, and after a year or so the stress was down to 80000 (still regularly stumbling around obliviously, of course). Pity I wasn't able to see if a full recovery would happen.
Also the thought combination of (the quotes are not exact):
"I feel so good!
He is utterly harrowed by the tragic farce that is his life" is somewhat contradictory...
More personality change causes & effects;
I don't know a lot about this subject but in my opinion a Siege should be more dangerous to your dwarfes well being than the aftermath of cleaning up corpses, not being able to practice a craft for too long or drinking without a well for some months.I think you need to take another, serious look at what's happening to your dwarves. You're saying that you're losing fortresses to mass insanity and depression solely because of rain? Really?
In the 2 forts I did in .44.12 I lost more people due to depression and insanity than through Fallen Beasts, Goblin Sieges and my poor magma handling skills even though I have mist generators, MW engraved temple/tavern/library and 2x3 living quarters engraved with all a dwarf could want but not microing the needs of every individual dwarf.
I don't know the cause but I think the priority of causes is not right when it comes to dwarfs going insane/depressive. I would understand it if it's a childs death or their squad mate getting maced but being rained on?
No my forts are alive and well, I'm saying it's just more dangerous.
I think you need to take another, serious look at what's happening to your dwarves. You're saying that you're losing fortresses to mass insanity and depression solely because of rain? Really?
Also, in the data links, the first and the third lead to the same message.Fixed!
From what I've noticed, after 4 years in a fort without bedrooms and miasma in the main meeting hall since year 2. Half of the fort was stressed and the rest were not bad or even positive. Especially the miners. For some reason they are the ones who never suffer from mental problems.Interesting. Possibly another indication that stress-causing effects are actually normal (relatively speaking), but stress-reducing effects are much weaker.
From what I've noticed, after 4 years in a fort without bedrooms and miasma in the main meeting hall since year 2. Half of the fort was stressed and the rest were not bad or even positive. Especially the miners. For some reason they are the ones who never suffer from mental problems.
How are you guys handling social needs? (partying & praying). I have tested non-stop jobs both underground & aboveground, and consistently found that Dwarves will work themselves to death.From what I've noticed, after 4 years in a fort without bedrooms and miasma in the main meeting hall since year 2. Half of the fort was stressed and the rest were not bad or even positive. Especially the miners. For some reason they are the ones who never suffer from mental problems.
Interesting. I'm at Late Winter of my second year. I have 60 dwarves. 56 are fine, 2 are happy and 2 are unhappy.
The unhappy ones are two of the fishermen, they get stressed because of the rain a lot, and they both got the trait "cracks easily under pressure", and one of them even has "is rarely happy or enthusiastic".
The happy ones are the miners, just like yours. Maybe them never going outside at all is a major factor for that? No rain, and no issue with cave adaptation because unlike some other dwarves, they don't even go outside a little, so while they're cave adapted, it doesn't come up as an issue.
I have to admit that the rain thing is getting on my nerves ;-) My fort is in the swamp. It rains about 90% of the time. I am slowly getting roofs over everything, but the rain has really stressed out my dwarfs.
The problem is that the reaction to the rain is not tied specifically to the race or cave adaptation - it is tied to the civilization's value of nature, e.g. it's cultural.But you do have the choice of assigning lumberjacking and plant gathering to the dwarves who don't mind working outdoors. That will minimise the impact (I admit I don't do this myself, but unlike others in this thread, have been lucky so far in that none of my dwarves have ever become terminally stressed from rain).
The unfortunate thing about it is that you cannot have rain-resistant lumberjacks. They either hate the rain or love the trees - no third option.
But you do have the choice of assigning lumberjacking and plant gathering to the dwarves who don't mind working outdoors. That will minimise the impact (I admit I don't do this myself, but unlike others in this thread, have been lucky so far in that none of my dwarves have ever become terminally stressed from rain).
Fishermen will prioritize fishing over everything else until they either go insane or create a moderate ecological disaster. You can safely disable fishing and give them another skill to train given how they're prone to stress and don't create added value.For what's it is worth, anecdotally, I enabled both fishing and animal training on a dwarf migrant I plan to assassinate for latter reasons in 43.03. They did actually train animals several times when called upon, even when fishing zone was available to them. (Then went back to netting mussels with their beards).
That's interesting, I assumed the reason I was getting no visible bad rain meltdowns in my last fortresses was because I was playing slightly modded dorfs who are more likely to not mind being outside (I forget what combination of values /ethics caused that).But you do have the choice of assigning lumberjacking and plant gathering to the dwarves who don't mind working outdoors. That will minimise the impact (I admit I don't do this myself, but unlike others in this thread, have been lucky so far in that none of my dwarves have ever become terminally stressed from rain).
If I recall correctly, that line in the preference screen is used as an indicator of cave adaptation: doesn't mind working outdoors equals level zero. I agree that not letting cave-adapt dwarves suddenly out in the open is reasonable. The problem is that the rain thought specifically ties down to the value of nature. Cave adaptation has it's own related thoughts.
Now that I'm looking at my dwarves' profiles under a microscope it is starting to bother me that family members don't have the same surname. I would really like to see family relations at a glance. I'm almost thinking of using 'nickname' to assign ad hoc surnames and pretend their current surname is their first name.
Quote from: Immortal-DBit of a self-bump here. I know that testing long-term mechanics is difficult for you due to the time required. That said, are you aware of current issues with the new stress sytem? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.0) Based on reports here & in Reddit, stress-reducing effects seem greatly underpowered compared to stress-causing effects.
Yeah, I have that thread in my "next version / before Big Wait" text file. I think I'll need to look at and log data on some saves for some of the problems, until we're satisfied that we understand what happened with a lot of the dwarves and their specific pathways to negativity. It'll be interesting to see how much of a portion of the stress is caused by probably-easily fixables like those repeated vulture interruptions (which is pure combat stress, I think, rather than just stress at being interrupted, which doesn't exist) vs. more systemic changes (which'll be harder to rebalance, but are clearly needed for certain recurring thoughts and broken/missing needs.)
Or, if you want to take a generally Nordic take on it, Foo Barson, who is son of Bar Bazson, son of Baz Quxson, etc. (Still used in Iceland, but used to be much more common.)
It might better to stick with nicknames, or to split off this topic into another thread for further discussionOr, if you want to take a generally Nordic take on it, Foo Barson, who is son of Bar Bazson, son of Baz Quxson, etc. (Still used in Iceland, but used to be much more common.)
Honestly this would be the most helpful naming scheme.
It might better to stick with nicknames, or to split off this topic into another thread for further discussion [...] the outcome of a "discussion" about this topic, might befoul this Stress thread.
... Built one basic rock statue of each god. ...
Unfortunately, no. Dwarves do not distinguish the content of Engravings or Statues, it is purely for your amusement.... Built one basic rock statue of each god. ...
Is it known whether the dwarves appreciate this little detail in any way?
I've had one guy picking fist fights and he ended killing someone and sending his wife and son the the hospital. There are 2 problems I see. First is that the other people don't fight back, no matter what -- and nobody else intervenes. So that means the stressed out guy just keeps wailing on their target until they snap out of it, or *hopefully* the target goes unconscious and gets carried off to the hospital. The second problem is that they just keep going even after the target has passed out -- which can result in the death of the target.
The target should respond. They are panicked -- you can see it in their thoughts, but they don't run away. They don't fight back. Possibly they will go off to do a job if one comes up, but they are divorced from the fight in every way, except for getting beaten to death. Also, the fight should end on some kind of trigger -- not just when some random time is up. You've broken the guy's arm -- it's time to stop! You've exploded their leg into gore -- well beyond time to stop! They've passed out... No, you shouldn't take that as a queue to grab their neck. There's a difference between a fist fight and murder.
But, my fighting dwarfs *do* end up with disorderly conduct. However, if you don't have a sheriff/captain of the guard, people won't report it, so there will be no witnesses. I locked up my murderous dwarf for 28 days (after a beating), but realising he'll definitely kill again (his combat skills are getting quite good), I'll have to exile him, which is a shame.
It's known that a very common need for dorfs is to engage in martial arts. As far as I've seen, that need is fulfilled by increasing a military skill, so I don't know what happens long term, when they get very good, and thus rarely improve. One month is often not enough to get even recruits to improve, but two months seems to do it usually.
Once a need is fulfilled, getting to fulfill other needs helps further.
Dwarves can have preferences for shapes and colors -- what does this apply to, if not decorations?That's a very good question.
Based on what I have observed, 'Friends / Family' is taken literally. The act of socializing is separate from being near (and socializing with) loved ones. Being in a Tavern with others will develop relationships and fulfill 'need to party, away from people (Dwarves) in general', but the friend/family need actually requires a Dwarf designated in the relationships as friend or family.Yes, but my point is that even partaking in the same social activity (identified by unit.social_activities[] and activity.events[].participants) with a friend (not mere acquaintance) or immediate family member (parent/spouse/child, not mere grandparent/uncle/niece/etc) as designated in the "relationships" screen does not seem to actually fulfill the need to "be with friends" or "family", respectively. So I agree that it require some kind of activity with a friend or family member, but it's not clear exactly what kind of activity qualifies.
Another problem is not being able to satisfy food needs (how does a baby know what an orka is and what it tastes like?!).
Based on what I have observed, 'Friends / Family' is taken literally. The act of socializing is separate from being near (and socializing with) loved ones. Being in a Tavern with others will develop relationships and fulfill 'need to party, away from people (Dwarves) in general', but the friend/family need actually requires a Dwarf designated in the relationships as friend or family.Dwarves can have preferences for shapes and colors -- what does this apply to, if not decorations?That's a very good question.
Oooh. Well then I got nothing, sorry. Maybe it's a time issue? Fulfilling the need could require they perform the activity for a minimum amount of time.Based on what I have observed, 'Friends / Family' is taken literally. The act of socializing is separate from being near (and socializing with) loved ones. Being in a Tavern with others will develop relationships and fulfill 'need to party, away from people (Dwarves) in general', but the friend/family need actually requires a Dwarf designated in the relationships as friend or family.Yes, but my point is that even partaking in the same social activity (identified by unit.social_activities[] and activity.events[].participants) with a friend (not mere acquaintance) or immediate family member (parent/spouse/child, not mere grandparent/uncle/niece/etc) as designated in the "relationships" screen does not seem to actually fulfill the need to "be with friends" or "family", respectively. So I agree that it require some kind of activity with a friend or family member, but it's not clear exactly what kind of activity qualifies.
What if you added a pause and recenter to your script, see what they're doing when the need gets reset? If it turns out to be purely a proximity thing, maybe operating a pumpstack? If it turns out to require idle (or social activity) plus immediate proximity, maybe programmatically assign them to a burrow until the need is met?That is part of my monitoring script, but friends/family needs seem to be satisfied so rarely that it's been hard to collect much data. So far I've only observed it to happen in two situations; the first was a child and father who got refreshes repeatedly while hanging out in the tavern (which led me down the Socialize route that ended up being a red herring), and the second was a husband and wife passing eachother in a hall while one was pathing in one direction to a stockpile job and the other was going in the other direction with no job, probably on their way to idle in the tavern.
From what I remember from other threads discussing these things, "socializing" in taverns doesn't do the same thing relationship-wise as idling next to dwarves. IIRC, from people doing research on dwarves forming relationships, the only way to reliably do it is to force the dwarves to idle next to each other. Perhaps it's this type of idling that will satisfy the need?No. Socializing next to each other works well if it's done in isolation (such as in nuptial encouragement suites). I haven't tried to examine the mess of random socializing with others present. My primary thought about why socializing in taverns doesn't achieve much is that the socializing is stretched too thin to achieve anything with all the visitors soaking up most of the efforts. It may well be that multi party socializing is bugged as well: someone said an activity broken off before completing didn't result in anything, and if there are lots of people involved, someone is bound to be called off to harvest/sleep/eat...
Does "Socialize" (activity_event_socializest) even happen outside of a defined tavern? I've never seen it. Or did you mean "socializing" in the generic sense where the two dwarves activities both show "No Job" in their nuptial suite, rather than actually "Socialize"?From what I remember from other threads discussing these things, "socializing" in taverns doesn't do the same thing relationship-wise as idling next to dwarves. IIRC, from people doing research on dwarves forming relationships, the only way to reliably do it is to force the dwarves to idle next to each other. Perhaps it's this type of idling that will satisfy the need?No. Socializing next to each other works well if it's done in isolation (such as in nuptial encouragement suites). I haven't tried to examine the mess of random socializing with others present. My primary thought about why socializing in taverns doesn't achieve much is that the socializing is stretched too thin to achieve anything with all the visitors soaking up most of the efforts. It may well be that multi party socializing is bugged as well: someone said an activity broken off before completing didn't result in anything, and if there are lots of people involved, someone is bound to be called off to harvest/sleep/eat...
I mean socializing as the displayed activity. As I paint my suites with tavern areas (associated to the normal tavern) these activities take place in the tavern, even if it's in a separated room.
Removing instruments is likely completely futile, as it's rare they're used: most of the time they're simulated.
Socialisation In the Tavern activity
^ ^ ^
Tell Stories Dance (Poetry)
^ ^
Contextual stories (Instrumental/ Simulated/Performers)
but I thought they were just too pious and had no time enough to pray to each of the gods
We covered tiny taverns (which has been linked to the findings page in the OP) a good few pages back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.msg7799600#msg7799600) to investigate this, as you said and i put in my previous post, socialisation is not a activity, its just a idling state waiting around for performances.Sort of. If you look into the memory structure of the activity in dfhack when a unit is socializing or praying ("df.activity_entry.find(unit.social_activities[0])"), you can see that the respective initial events for those activities ("activity.events[0]") are activity_event_socializest and activity_event_worshipst; if that's the only non-dismissed event in the activity then the dwarf will show "Socialize" or "Worship" as their job. But a social activity can branch into a sub-event ("activity.events[1]") such as activity_event_performancest ("Listen to Poetry", "Tell Story", etc depending on event properties), and a worship activity can branch into activity_event_prayerst (which could be "Pray to X" or "Meditate", depending on "event.deity_id").
Prayer is the same thing, but its idle state is meditation.
Wait, then, if I understood correctly, ¿temples have little or no effect unless you assign performers? I've got this bunch of people always grumpy because they can't pray, even having temples to each diety, but I thought they were just too pious and had no time enough to pray to each of the gods.You certainly don't need performers in temples to satisfy prayer needs, I've never assigned any and my dwarves (usually) pray just fine. It's possible having a performer would let dwarves also satisfy various kinds of social or artistic needs in a temple the way they otherwise will in a tavern, I'm not sure. But it's also possible that doing that would make it less likely for them to satisfy prayer in the temple, so it might be a net loss for needs satisfaction.
¿Or is it part of the whole "socialize" stuff?
Maybe the Attend/Conduct Meeting if you want a go here and chat thing? The CageLargeAnimal/ChainAnimal justice jobs might work if it's possible to socialize while being hauled off to jail? It might also be possible to set a destination for the unit to the position of a friend/family member?
No luck on the pics, Tim.
Your best bet is probably to upload them to imgur and then just post the short links.
I've been using a new setup for my taverns, compiling public and private taverns together, then turning both of them off in autumn and winter so the dwarves distribute themselves without a location to visit by unassigning it but keeping it relevant with beds so people are still globally aware.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As you can see, there are 2 floorspace zones which are defined seperately for the public (larger) and private (inner) tavern, when the zones are off its overlayed onto a meeting/dining hall which gets regular use but becomes a gathering floorspace. Containers are attached to the barrel zones which themselves are mini meeting areas defined between private (left) and public (right).
The decoration and table/chair value has pushed it to be a legendary dining hall but i feel there's still more i could do to make it masterfully tasteful.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Turning the tavern off this way seasonally motivates my local monster hunter (in the 3x3 rented room adjacent with a cobaltite figure of himself on display) to actually work in spring and summer, else he'll slope off to the tavern eternally.
I believe this is crossover code from Toady messing with nobles on foriegn sites to make them sit at their offices for the player to see in adventure mode, and that it has transferred with the global offsite meeting room behaviour than previous 30. versions, dwarves were never noted to be sitters.
Chair without table sounds like mood's eating debuff.
so they changed stuff, well im gonna start playing this game again afther over a year break atleast. wont change the way i play at all and hopefully evrything will work out fine, or not and i learn something new.Ensure your dwarfs can do some unimportant crafting to improve their happiness. You will receive a migrant who considers craftsmanship to be important, but they have no crafting skills enabled. Over time, they will become less happy because they have not crafted for too long.
So is it even possible right now to play a fortress with sieges and everything without an inevitable total collapse and without having to micromanage the absolute shit out of stress?
So is it even possible right now to play a fortress with sieges and everything without an inevitable total collapse and without having to micromanage the absolute shit out of stress? I just want to play dwarf fortress, but I've tried like a half dozen forts doing every old trick in the book to keep happiness high and they totally and utterly collapse the first time a few dwarves die.I'm going to say the answer is definitely 'no'. Even if you forsake the surface and build in such a way that siege fights are guaranteed to happen in the same place (boring, I feel), you still need to force socializing via Burrow once or twice per year. Unfortunately, right now I'm forced to recommend anyone building a serious Fort use the DFHack command to remove Stress periodically.
So is it even possible right now to play a fortress with sieges and everything without an inevitable total collapse and without having to micromanage the absolute shit out of stress?I have expelled a few and do little micromanagement. I do examine each new migrant, ensuring they have a crafting skill enabled that produces items with a quality level (there needs to be workshops set up to queue a few jobs of this type of work each month), and ensuring they are added to a military squad that has an assigned barracks for individual combat drills (excepting miners/woodcutters/hunters). If you look at the average dwarf, they all respect crafting and military prowess. These two activities are as important to most dwarfs as praying, socializing, and reading, and you need to change each dwarf to allow them to do the activity. If they have no "work" of this sort over a couple of years, they will be much closer to cracking.
Eck, I really don't like any of these options. Constantly cycling out my dwarves is something that kinda ruins the game for me, because I lose that feeling of persistent growth and life. And avoiding any sieges or conflict sounds boring as hell.The only information on justice is from my own findings (middle of 'General Information' in the op). I was using a modest prison with artworks & furniture, but all average quality, and not paying attention to favorite materials. Taking the time to micromanage a prison would be good info to have. That said, even if sufficient quality and favorite items can help the criminals, it won't necessarily prevent tantrums, since some unhappy Dwarves never commit a crime, they just become crazy.
Some guy on the subreddit said that if you expand the shit out of your justice system and jail every dwarf who commits a crime in a masterwork prison, you can totally prevent a tantrum spiral. I'm skeptical of this, has anybody tried it? If not I might give it a try and report back.
It's rather doubtful prison management would be a major help to stress management, as the reason for dorfs tantruming typically aren't the lack of nice surroundings (if it is, you'd be better off giving them decent rooms of their own, rather than prison cells, to prevent them from breaking in the first place).Sounds about right. Fixing the stacking stress items (bodies, probably rain and to a lesser extent vengeful feelings towards keas) combined with an overhaul to the dorven approach to relationship building might be enough by itself to make the game a bit more bearable.
Rambling list:
Dorfs don't like being rained on, see dead sapients (citizens in particular, as a comparatively recent improvement), not being able to eat or drink favored food, not meeting friends or family (and typically having neither, with basically no capability to acquire them without player intervention, apart from the starting 7 or migrating as a family), as well as things preventable through player management such as acquisition of new clothes and trinkets (although some stubborn buggers may refuse to claim trinkets unless they're of a favored material), praying, reading, crafting, martial arts training, and fighting (which can result in an immediate breakdown when the fighting results in a dead gobbo in unlucky cases). Nothing new in this list, and I've probably missed a number of things.
There is still one way to deal with sieges without putting stress on the dwarfs. Massive amounts of magma.There are two problems with that approach:
I'd add 4: what do you do before reaching the magma sea?
My playstyle is very slow-paced, so my fortresses usually last about ten years (until I lose interest and let whatever disaster destroy the fortress), and I've never reached it, actually. I'd rather turtle and avoid battles altogether rathen than rush to the magma sea.
Pets are good, I guess is my main point. Seems to do their owners a world of good.
Pets are good, I guess is my main point. Seems to do their owners a world of good.
Dwarf Fortress 44.12... now featuring therapy dogs!
I was doing some testing on socializing and relationships. When a unit socializes with another, either because one/both are idle or are socializing in a tavern zone, the "rank" counter in their relationship increments by one or more. When the counter hits 15, they become friends or grudges. It's possible for a unit to socialize several times per in-game day. I don't know if the number is influenced by the personality of the talker or listener. Range seems to be 1-4 per in-game day.Good stuff :) I have added this to General Information.
However... Standard good/bad news.
Bad: It looks there are some serious restrictions on which tiles a dwarf will interact with during the "socializing" activity. It looks like they will only interact with units on N,S,E,W adjacent tiles. They ignore units in the same and diagonally adjacent tiles.
Good: A "socializing" unit WILL socialize (increase rank) with other busy dwarves if the busy dwarves aren't moving. I tested with units busy with a pumpstack, a library, and a temple. All of them were repeatedly able to form friendships.
This should give you an option to push your lonely dwarves into having friends.
New information, 'millbuilding' (dfhack named idle activity) drives dwarves to occupy a area even in the most mundane of circumstances, as they while actually standing up don't do much so long as there's a chair or walkable piece of furniture to seat upon wherein they will prefer to stop.Just saw this, added to the OP. Again, anyone please feel free to pm me if I overlook new information.
If a chair is adjacent to a occupied museum in a zone, they'll observe the seat, then the objects in a immediate 3x3 around them leading to a big dump of positive thoughts at once, therefore all personal dwarf rooms should have a chair centre & a dining table (to avoid no table bad thoughts when they attempt to eat), but this actually minimises the maximum amount of space and designs you can make for a dwarf to acknowledge, though 3x3's are quite basic and also spacious for a single dwarf and family when well outfitted.
(Chair/Museum Pedistal - Display case = 1 tick) (Chair/Museum Pedistal - Display Case - Museum Display = 2 or more ticks)
Without a chair/walkable furniture (like another museum pedistal) dwarves wont hold attention there long enough and instantly shift position after a tick, constantly erratically moving about. This might also attribute to why they dont talk so much.QuoteI believe this is crossover code from Toady messing with nobles on foriegn sites to make them sit at their offices for the player to see in adventure mode, and that it has transferred with the global offsite meeting room behaviour than previous 30. versions, dwarves were never noted to be sitters.
Good: A "socializing" unit WILL socialize (increase rank) with other busy dwarves if the busy dwarves aren't moving. I tested with units busy with a pumpstack, a library, and a temple. All of them were repeatedly able to form friendships.
While it would be a marked improvement (and the investigation results are rather interesting), just having everyone chatting up the dorf in the workshop will result in a lot of dorfs getting a small number of relations points towards the worker(s), rather than the worker getting friends he may get a large number of passing acquaintances (still an improvement of the current standard situation). Thus, you'd probably need to use burrows (or some other means of separation) to restrict the dorfs visiting that friend making tavern to a set of dorfs to become the future friends, while everyone else go to the "normal" tavern (or are partitioned to parallel friend making setups).Good: A "socializing" unit WILL socialize (increase rank) with other busy dwarves if the busy dwarves aren't moving. I tested with units busy with a pumpstack, a library, and a temple. All of them were repeatedly able to form friendships.
Wait... This is amazing. Do you mean to say that if I build tavern squares in the N,S,W,E directions of my workshops that dwarfs will go and socialise in those squares and make friends with anyone who is working at that workshop??? Because if is, that's an incredibly easy way to make sure someone makes friends: make a workshop only for them, set up a repeating task, close all your taverns except for those 4 squares around the workshop. Result, every idle dwarf will go and try to make friends with the dwarf in the workshop!
Did some additional testing with dwarves in multiple adjacent positions. It appears that socialization is a bit weirder than I'd hoped. What I've seen is that a dwarf will socialize with same space and diagonally adjacent units, but ONLY when there is another dwarf in a NSEW position. If that condition is met, the first dwarf will socialize with ANY dwarf in a 3x3 grid centered on itself. So, for instance, consider dwarves in the following layout. X are empty tiles, #'s are tiles with one dwarf (or more).Weird. I wonder if this "logic" is related to the one that allows dorfs to build things from ramps and diagonals only if they could have stood in a perpendicular position?
XX1
X23
4XX
Dwarf 3 is the critical component here. It doesn't matter how many dwarves are in positions 1, 2, and 4, they won't socialize until a dwarf shows up in Position 3. Once that happens:
Position 1: Relations form with 1,2, and 3.
Position 2: Relations form with 1,2,3, and 4
Position 3: Relations form with 1,2, and 3.
Position 4: Relations form with 2 (originated by 2).
So my plan of long 2xn meeting halls actually doesn't have any issues?
C
CTC
C
So my plan of long 2xn meeting halls actually doesn't have any issues?Only when n<3? I got the fastest socialization with a stack of 2x1 meeting locations zones set to the same tavern. Each instance seems to do its own thing, rather than synchronize activity like a single zone. But the hassle of setting it all up every time you start a fort would... be a hassle? And then there's the dwarves that just hang out on the outside edge of the zone...
Weird. I wonder if this "logic" is related to the one that allows dorfs to build things from ramps and diagonals only if they could have stood in a perpendicular position?I know a guy we can ask. :) My own guess was a check for adjacency that missed the combination of X and Y for diagonals (e.g., NE=X+1,Y+1).
Did some additional testing with dwarves in multiple adjacent positions. It appears that socialization is a bit weirder than I'd hoped. What I've seen is that a dwarf will socialize with same space and diagonally adjacent units, but ONLY when there is another dwarf in a NSEW position. If that condition is met, the first dwarf will socialize with ANY dwarf in a 3x3 grid centered on itself. So, for instance, consider dwarves in the following layout. X are empty tiles, #'s are tiles with one dwarf (or more).
XX1
X23
4XX
Dwarf 3 is the critical component here. It doesn't matter how many dwarves are in positions 1, 2, and 4, they won't socialize until a dwarf shows up in Position 3. Once that happens:
Position 1: Relations form with 1,2, and 3.
Position 2: Relations form with 1,2,3, and 4
Position 3: Relations form with 1,2, and 3.
Position 4: Relations form with 2 (originated by 2).
C is chairs, T are tables, D are decorations, so effectively you get a clean grid of these (below) which should be on a repeating pattern for acknowledgement to keep dwarves stimulated while they are waiting.XD1
D2(3C)
(4C)TT
XDX
DXC
CTT
XDXXDX
DXCCXD
CTTTTC
CTTTTC
DXCCXD
XDXXDX
Findings and what is the common consensus on the 'fix' change very often as people look for the causes, if I or anybody else was 'wrong' or in light of new findings are disproved then its nothing particularly to dwell upon besides that we're making progress towards better models of running our fortresses.
My marks dwarves tantrum one after another due to their fragile psyches while my hammer dwarves have no issue at all with killing. What's the reason for this? They all have good discipline. I even started everyone with natural discipline.Are you able to see common differences in the source of stress between the hammer and marksdwarfs? Killing things is usually not a source, but seeing the dead bodies or being vengeful from joining an existing conflict are sources. Maybe your marksdwarfs are seeing the same dead bodies but are accumulating vengeful stress at a higher rate. When you say they all have good discipline, how good?
Also, if you're exceptionally worried about stress you can take the modding approach and change dwarves' [STRESS_VULNERABILITY] trait.I'm not having bad thought about stress per se, it's just that i don't want to restart the game every so often because of something i can't prevent or fix.
Well. DF is currently DWARF Fortress, and mods/raw hacks to make other races playable have to butt heads against that limitation. Comments/complaints about mods are better placed in their respective mod threads, though.
There's always somebody angry, somebody depressed, somebody who is a troublemaker, someone cheerful...I don't want everyone happy-- I don't want people to get "in a constant state of internal rage" due to being exposed to rain. Once someone gets a disorder like this, their stress is likely to build and they will try to murder someone. As you say, it needs tweaking.
Of course, stress needs balancing and all that, but you must accept you can't have everybody happy.
I tried playing humans with the "All Races Playable" mod so as to avoid rain related personality disorders when building above ground. Some of my humans had the description: "She likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly at inclement weather." None of these humans have had rain related personality changes in 5 years.
However, a significant number of my humans do not have that in their description. Those humans have been getting various personality changes. Its a bit disappointing, since they are humans and are meant to live in villages. I can't really prevent them getting rained on without moving them underground.
Think about it, you live above ground (I assume) and you probably don't like getting drenched while workingSure. But I go autonomously go inside when its raining. There's no way to make dwarves do this on their own. Maybe have a civilian alert every time it rains? Turn off all outdoor labors when it rains? Even then, being rained on for a very short time still generates the bad thought (so i assume also the personality disorders that do with it)-- so even running for cover wouldn't avoid it.
...Needs a new type of pathing... one for "rain avoidance". It would be like "walk" pathing, but would exclude "Outside Light Aboveground" tiles while it is raining.
Sure. But I go autonomously go inside when its raining. There's no way to make dwarves do this on their own. Maybe have a civilian alert every time it rains?
I can't really prevent them getting rained on without moving them underground.
I can't really prevent them getting rained on without moving them underground.Sure you can. You could disable weather in d_init, embark in a biome with extremely rare or non-existent rain, build roofs, or use burrows to constrain most of your population to weather-proof tiles. I've successfully used the latter three in several above-ground forts in v0.44.12.
Hello,
(tl;dr: What of the stress system is intended and what will be gone after the Big Wait?)
dug up my old account just to chime in. Came back to DF after a long time how so many people do but without checking the forums.
Now after I tested out the cool new raiding and pillaging mechanic and happily awaited a siege from the nearby goblin civ I started a war with and very obliviously stumbled into the stress problems this entire thread is about (and now I understand why this thread got so many pages...) The cleanupcrew got emotionally destroyed.
So my question is what of that is actually intended and what is not? For me personally it would be too much mircomanagement to go through all the dwarves and see who would suffer the least from cleaning up a battlefield so I'm wondering if Dwarves are supposed to be this... vulnerable.
If you ask me, they should care way less about certain corpses (e.g. corpses of another species that just moments ago tried to kill you with a huge army...) I'd even go as far and say that most dwarves should feel relieved after seeing a goblin corpse.
Hello,
(tl;dr: What of the stress system is intended and what will be gone after the Big Wait?)
[...]
So my question is what of that is actually intended and what is not? For me personally it would be too much mircomanagement to go through all the dwarves and see who would suffer the least from cleaning up a battlefield so I'm wondering if Dwarves are supposed to be this... vulnerable.
Personally, I think the 7 starting dorfs should kinda expect what they're getting into as should the first 3-5 migrant waves.
Personally, I think the 7 starting dorfs should kinda expect what they're getting into as should the first 3-5 migrant waves.
I believe you'll find each of your starting seven, at least, "likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly at inclement weather," which does help a bit.
That's pretty much exclusively a message about cave adaptation, doesn't do anything about inclement weather at all actually, just makes them not feel nauseous upon surfacing
Went outside while it was raining, snowing, or in evil weather. Ambushers are used to bad weather and don't get this thought, and dwarves who like working outdoors won't get stressed from this.
A dwarf with the description, 'likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly at inclement weather' is no more resistant to cave adaptation than a regular dwarf is. In fact, said dwarf may even have cave adaptation - this description simply indicates that the dwarf gets reduced happiness penalties from having to do without the comforts of civilization.(This quote's from 40d, though.)
Personally, I think the 7 starting dorfs should kinda expect what they're getting into as should the first 3-5 migrant waves.
I believe you'll find each of your starting seven, at least, "likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly at inclement weather," which does help a bit.
That's pretty much exclusively a message about cave adaptation, doesn't do anything about inclement weather at all actually, just makes them not feel nauseous upon surfacing
I made a support DFHack script to attempt to buy liked stuff from caravans today, and I've seen some dorfs actually eat various kinds of cheese they like after the human caravan provided stuff (including lots of fish). It's tested on exactly one caravan, so there are probably bugs (no animals bought for slaughter, for instance).Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The script is run from while you're on the trade screen, and it simply goes through the list of items for sale and match them against preferred food of citizens, marking each match for purchase. There is no check against what you have in stock or whether you can afford it, though, so it will happily select everything it finds matching. It might be useful to handle at least some food preference issues, as the dorfs I'm losing essentially are lost to the combination of no friends, no family, and no decent meals.
Huh, neat idea; though I was contemplating marking all desired prefs as requested goods (also gets around "want to eat giant lovebird heart in particular"). Should be relatively easy adaptation.
FantasticDwarf, I understand the theory but when I implement these 1 wide strips of tavern I get almost 0 progress in friendships still.
There are a very few non starting 7 dwarves with 2 or 3 friends after years of this.
Is there anything else to it? Am I expecting too much progress?
Released Dwarf Fortress 0.47.03
- Added person-seeking behavior to socialize activity and to jobless milling about in zones
- Changed stress calculation for high vulnerability personalities
The reason your dorfs aren't hauling corpses when ordered to haul garbage is that corpses of sapients are hauled using the corpse hauling (burial) labor rather than the refuse hauling one, so beak dog corpses should be hauled off, but not gobbo ones. Also note that corpses of regular undead aren't considered corpses of sapients, even though they might have been sapients before being killed and raised.
Surest way to avoid corpse stress would be to burn them with magma before anyone can see them. Have the goblins go through a staircase that goes a long way down and back up again, then drop magma on their heads. IIRC, brief exposure to the falling magma causes the goblins and clothes to burn while leaving fire-safe items intact.