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Author Topic: looking for games  (Read 6017 times)

lumin

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2008, 03:17:16 pm »

Is Stone Soup really that good? I've played Crawl, but never Stone Soup.

Incursion is much better imo, but again, this is my subjective opinion.  :)

I agree, I believe Incursion is the best roguelike out there.  If you haven't tried it, you're missing out.  (char creation can be daunting, but be patient.  The game itself is fantastic)
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Soulwynd

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2008, 10:35:45 am »

Is Stone Soup really that good? I've played Crawl, but never Stone Soup.

Incursion is much better imo, but again, this is my subjective opinion.  :)

I agree, I believe Incursion is the best roguelike out there.  If you haven't tried it, you're missing out.  (char creation can be daunting, but be patient.  The game itself is fantastic)
Incursion will be epic if it's ever finished, similar to a version 1 DF adventure mode.
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Captain Hat

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2008, 03:19:26 pm »

Yeah, Stone Soup didn't do it for me. I will give big YES to Incursion though. I think it's the only other game that I have played that has been as detailed and with a "losing is fun!" factor, besides DF.

Granite26

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2008, 06:42:53 pm »

As far as 'questionable' goes, I've always felt that home of the underdogs does a good job with abandonware.  (AKA they do a good job of not challenging copyright)

That being said, I'm also looking for some good roguelike action...  Incursion, Stone Soup and Unreal World are on the list... Are there any good online resources for looking these up?

inaluct

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2008, 06:44:59 pm »

Wait, is Unreal World even a roguelike? From it's website it seems like a game about Finnish guys fighting with axes and crap in a forest.
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Mephisto

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2008, 07:11:06 pm »

The only things roguelike about it are the random world and the perspective. It's more of a survival game than a "retrieve the doohickey from the big baddy" type of game.
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Granite26

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2008, 10:52:59 pm »

Incursion: First Attempt.

This game needs work.  It's currently at .6, which feels about right.  The things that are there are solid, but there's some polish that's just not there. 

The inventory structure was annoying.  It's worst flaw was my inability to take something from a chest and put it into a bag in one trip to the inventory screen.  The second half of this was being unable to simple pick something up into the bag without going to the inventory screen.  When I realized you couldn't sell anything, it solved a lot of problems because I just stopped carrying anything.

The second major issue was the pathfinding and general structure.  I played a ranger with an animal companion, and was regularly stopped while exploring by 'displaced' messages due to the dog walking over me.  He also got stuck in a maze and couldn't follow me out.  I was even trapped in the corner myself for a while because, while he could push past me, or push me into adjacent squares, I couldn't push past him.

The manual needs some work, and the wiki is underpopulated.  On the other hand, the interface does an excellent job inundating you with information about in game objects, with bolded keywords (This was easily the best part of the game)

The system itself is a lightly modified 3.5 rules set.  That is, it's literally D&D.  The 'complex' character creation was perfectly recognizable as the normal character creation process for D&D.  The OGL was created to sell Player's Handbooks, and to make more obscure genres use a familiar system.  I can't say that I think highly of placing the (oversimplified) structure in a video game.

All that being said, it's a solid system that does everything it needs to do for a dungeon crawl game.  It's got promise, but I'm done with D&D.

Anyway, Stone Soup is next.

Stone Soup:

Erm, yeah...  It did everything right that Incursion is doing wrong, and yet it made me appreciate incursion all the more.  It seems like a 2 inch deep game, but the polish is kinda nice.  No inventory woes, because there's effectively no inventory.  I had a lot of trouble running down corridors by holding the key down, and missing monsters.  It seemed that there were some macros for this, but it seemed like work.  Poison was bad...

Unreal World next, but it's shareware, which means a limited copy.  Blech....

Unreal World:  Blech...  This is actually a pretty polished game... The UI is a bit awkward, because there were a few times I had trouble getting it to do what I wanted navigating the structure.  I think my major issue with it is the frustration of the recursion.  You can't plant because there's no fire, but pile all your twigs up, and it tells you that you can't start a fire with this many twigs.  Forage? nope, Hunt? nope.... erm... ok, starve?  Yup.  I think this could be a neat game after some research and a few tries, but it fails on first blush.  It's also not really a roguelike, except for the topdown view, random world, and what appears to be easy death.

The final straw was trying to exit the game.  The X in the corner was disabled, and it took a few menu keys to get out, all the while playing music.  When I finally got to the screen where it asked me to select a language to display the begging for money, it crashed and I had to kill the app anyway.



After these three, I'm going to have to say Incursion is the best of the lot.  I can deal with the pathfinding issues (I'll start at no animal companions).  The inventory screen has issues, but it seems like a first pass, so I'll be forgiving there to.  That leaves the only serious crime as being a literal D&D clone through a questionable application of the OGL license (My interpretation was that OGL stuff from Wizards said you still needed to require the player's handbook, but I could be wrong).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 09:15:51 am by Granite26 »
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Sergius

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2008, 01:20:37 am »

You can't plant because there's no fire, but pile all your twigs up, and it tells you that you can't start a fire with this many twigs.
Um... you just need more twigs. About 15 or so will do (will only last enough to cook one stack of things tho).

Quote
Forage? nope, Hunt? nope.... erm... ok, starve?
Fish? Actually the latest version has a lot of forageable things that you can eat. The old version barely had any and they never "respawned".

Anyway I found out that the best way to play is to start with a shovel, find a nice cozy beach and make a shelter, dig a trench all around you (put spikes and cover a few of the holes but be careful not to fall in them) and spend a while fishing and sleeping. Even if you don't catch any food there's a bunch of animals that are out to get you and will fall down for you to butcher.

I don't like this game so much anymore...
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inaluct

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2008, 12:41:33 pm »

It seems like a 2 inch deep game
Yeah, it seems like that until you get through a few dungeon branches. The problem with it's early game is that it's hard and usually uninteresting. Try playing some of the other classes. Hill Orc Priests can gain orcish followers that'll walk around killing stuff with you. Being an orc barricade is always fun.

No inventory woes, because there's effectively no inventory.
I'm not really sure how to say this, but there is an inventory.

I had a lot of trouble running down corridors by holding the key down, and missing monsters.  It seemed that there were some macros for this, but it seemed like work.
Hold shift. You'll run until you see a monster, then stop.
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lumin

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2008, 01:04:34 pm »

Incursion: First Attempt.

This game needs work.  It's currently at .6, which feels about right.  The things that are there are solid, but there's some polish that's just not there. 

The inventory structure was annoying.  It's worst flaw was my inability to take something from a chest and put it into a bag in one trip to the inventory screen.  The second half of this was being unable to simple pick something up into the bag without going to the inventory screen.  When I realized you couldn't sell anything, it solved a lot of problems because I just stopped carrying anything.

The second major issue was the pathfinding and general structure.  I played a ranger with an animal companion, and was regularly stopped while exploring by 'displaced' messages due to the dog walking over me.  He also got stuck in a maze and couldn't follow me out.  I was even trapped in the corner myself for a while because, while he could push past me, or push me into adjacent squares, I couldn't push past him.

The manual needs some work, and the wiki is underpopulated.  On the other hand, the interface does an excellent job inundating you with information about in game objects, with bolded keywords (This was easily the best part of the game)

The system itself is a lightly modified 3.5 rules set.  That is, it's literally D&D.  The 'complex' character creation was perfectly recognizable as the normal character creation process for D&D.  The OGL was created to sell Player's Handbooks, and to make more obscure genres use a familiar system.  I can't say that I think highly of placing the (oversimplified) structure in a video game.

All that being said, it's a solid system that does everything it needs to do for a dungeon crawl game.  It's got promise, but I'm done with D&D.

Anyway, Stone Soup is next.

Stone Soup:

Erm, yeah...  It did everything right that Incursion is doing wrong, and yet it made me appreciate incursion all the more.  It seems like a 2 inch deep game, but the polish is kinda nice.  No inventory woes, because there's effectively no inventory.  I had a lot of trouble running down corridors by holding the key down, and missing monsters.  It seemed that there were some macros for this, but it seemed like work.  Poison was bad...

Unreal World next, but it's shareware, which means a limited copy.  Blech....

Unreal World:  Blech...  This is actually a pretty polished game... The UI is a bit awkward, because there were a few times I had trouble getting it to do what I wanted navigating the structure.  I think my major issue with it is the frustration of the recursion.  You can't plant because there's no fire, but pile all your twigs up, and it tells you that you can't start a fire with this many twigs.  Forage? nope, Hunt? nope.... erm... ok, starve?  Yup.  I think this could be a neat game after some research and a few tries, but it fails on first blush.  It's also not really a roguelike, except for the topdown view, random world, and what appears to be easy death.

The final straw was trying to exit the game.  The X in the corner was disabled, and it took a few menu keys to get out, all the while playing music.  When I finally got to the screen where it asked me to select a language to display the begging for money, it crashed and I had to kill the app anyway.



After these three, I'm going to have to say Incursion is the best of the lot.  I can deal with the pathfinding issues (I'll start at no animal companions).  The inventory screen has issues, but it seems like a first pass, so I'll be forgiving there to.  That leaves the only serious crime as being a literal D&D clone through a questionable application of the OGL license (My interpretation was that OGL stuff from Wizards said you still needed to require the player's handbook, but I could be wrong).

Ouch.

If you're that critical of 3 of the best rogue-likes out there (opinion of a lot of members of this forum), then I'd like to see the list of rogue-likes you consider to be superior to the ones mentioned above.

I agree that they do lack polish, but so does Dwarf Fortress.  The quality of these games is not in the interface, but in their depth of game-play.  I think that's what draws many people to these kind of games (and most indie games for that matter).  Most mainstream games seem to work the other way around - they have plenty of polish, a pretty interface, but zero depth.

Saying Stone Soup is "2 inches deep" is pretty harsh.  That game has been in development for many years.  Considering that this was the first time you had even played these three games (from the tone of your reviews), tells me you barely know a thing about what makes a rogue-like good or bad in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 01:06:35 pm by lumin »
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Neonivek

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2008, 01:37:26 pm »

Quote
If you're that critical of 3 of the best rogue-likes out there (opinion of a lot of members of this forum), then I'd like to see the list of rogue-likes you consider to be superior to the ones mentioned above.

Best =/= Good

His criticism is well placed and he doesn't need to justify anything he said was negative by listing a supperior product if there is one.

Quote
"Saying Stone Soup is "2 inches deep" is pretty harsh.  That game has been in development for many years.  Considering that this was the first time you had even played these three games (from the tone of your reviews), tells me you barely know a thing about what makes a rogue-like good or bad in the first place"

Then let me say it... Stone Soup was 2 inches deep... and I played quite a few Rogues before (What was a Water Dragon doing in the first town before?). Now how does me saying it change the content? Frankly you could take his lack of experience with Roguelikes as a path to a fair and impartial review that isn't peppered by "Well it doesn't suck".

Quote
I agree that they do lack polish, but so does Dwarf Fortress.

OHHH it is the reverse of the Hitler arguement!!! Let me break this down

Stone Soup lacks polish
Dwarf Fortress lacks polish
Dwarf Fortress is good
Thus Polish must not be bad

Even  if that is not what you meant that is what your conveying.

Quote
The quality of these games is not in the interface, but in their depth of game-play.  I think that's what draws many people to these kind of games (and most indie games for that matter).  Most mainstream games seem to work the other way around - they have plenty of polish, a pretty interface, but zero depth.

No the interface IS part of their quality in the sense that these games don't HAVE to have a lousy interface. A lot of Stone Soup's depth is completely covered by its innaccessability and in the way it deprives players without large quantities of outside information from experiencing its deeper gameplay effectively negating it meaning that it has EFFECTIVELY LESS DEPTH while giving the illusion of greater depth because it takes so long to see anything else.

Many of these games that "lack depth" you mention often have more depth but because they present all of it at you at once without anything hidden, locked, or for Pros they seem less so because you can pick everything out.

While comparing Freeware games (I don't count indie because frankly... if they charge me money then there are no punches pulled! I am looking at you Mount and Blade, or shall I say, Mod and Community!) to ones you pay for on the exact same level is a bit unfair... it doesn't mean someone has to bend on their knees and praise a game ignoring all the obvious overhanging flaws within it especially since it is an ongoing game that could very well fix the problem IF THE DEVELOPERS ARE AWARE!!!

Actually I don't know if I am ranting... I don't even know what I just wrote... I just hope it is correct XD
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inaluct

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2008, 02:33:35 pm »

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Neonivek

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2008, 02:38:52 pm »

Heh my problems with Stone soup isn't polish anyhow it is depth and "You just die" moments if we are being truthful. (as well as sevear character power differences with no indication)

Though since most of the complaints I ever said about Stone soup is actually in line with development (such as making ice magic... Ice magic) I am still waiting to see what Stonesoup will finally be.

Though I doubt it will ever eliminate "You just die".
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inaluct

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2008, 02:51:21 pm »

Well, the character difficulty is visible before you start; recommended choices are white, non recommended ones are gray. The tutorial briefly goes over which are the easiest, too.

It isn't like NetHack isn't full of arbitrary death, either. Would you like to know more?[/Starship Troopers]

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Neonivek

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Re: looking for games
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2008, 03:08:04 pm »

Quote
It isn't like NetHack isn't full of arbitrary death

Arbitrary death is one of the major problems with the whole Roguelike genre... Very few roguelikes don't have it in some form and most have it in excess.

Who says I don't consider Nethack's arbitrary death to be a problem? In fact it makes the game near unplayable at times (actually not near... it actually can make it unplayable)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 03:38:10 pm by Neonivek »
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