Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 04:11:46 pm
I've been really thinking about rebooting the old .34 Pokemon mod, but, I feel like it needs some major changes to the mechanics. For example I don't think you should have dwarves running around slashing Mudkips to death. Not really feeling that. So I wanted to ask the community, for some ideas.
What would you guys like to see in a Pokemon mod?
One of the main ideas I wanted to toss around was, how should we handle fortress mode civilizations? On one hand the Pokemon universe is filled with humans who raise Pokemon. But that's not a very DF-Friendly mechanic because even if we removed all the weapons from the game, humans would still run around like savages biting Poke-flesh off the creatures.
On the other hand we could come up with some lore about a new land or something only inhabited by Pokemon, and have some of the more humanoid-like pokemon (Machoke, Lucario, etc...) start forming groups, and 'leading' other Pokemon.
If we really wanted to go ham, we could even make every single species playable, letting players choose how easy/hard the game is. You could just get a whole bunch of Mewtwos and blast the s*** out of everything, or you could start with a little group of Krabbys, and run around pinching your way through the world. This would be really ridiculous though.
Anyways, what do you guys think? For/against any ideas? New ideas? I'd be able to handle the coding, I know my way around raws really well so I'm not worried about that. I just want a more community-driven project because there's so much potential to this but, if it's not done right, it could be a horrible mess.
Other proposed ideas
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ardent Debater on April 14, 2016, 05:04:32 pm
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 05:10:13 pm
I'm no Modder, but I have a suggestion. What if Legendary Pokemon were Deities/Mega-Beasts?I like it :P there's a megabeast token that is usable in creature definitions:
Quote from: From the wiki
A 'boss' creature. A small number of the creature are created during worldgen, their histories and descendants (if any) will be tracked in worldgen (as opposed to simply 'spawning'), and they will occasionally go on rampages, potentially leading to worship if they attack the same place multiple times. Their presence and number will also influence age names. When appearing in Fortress Mode, they will have a pop-up message announcing their arrival.
There's also a fanciful token that we can use:
Quote from: From the wiki
The creature is a thing of legend and known to all civilizations. Its materials cannot be requested or preferred. The tag also adds some art value modifiers. Used for things like dragons and other legendary creatures. Conflicts with [COMMON_DOMESTIC]
I think it would be awesome seeing a popup saying an Entei has appeared, or seeing Articuno statues get crafted.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2016, 05:16:54 pm
If you make them all one race, breeding wont work out right. Two bulbasaurs could breed together and you could get a charizard. Or two charizards could mate and you'd get a muk. It would be all random.
The way DF is set up, there is no way you can really get people from going around and beating up pokemon and eating their poke-meat. Even with no weapons, they'd still punch poor bellsprout to death.
My advice would be to spin the mod as a "Pre-technology" pokeworld. The world before the pokeball and modern technology made training pokemon easy and eating them unnecessary. That way you could treat them as normal creatures, use cagetraps to catch them, and then train and eat them as humans surely did in prehistoric pokemon times.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 05:19:48 pm
-snip-I totally agree, that's what I was intending to bring up in the OP. It's savage but, the least nonsensical. Essentially a 'middle-ages' Pokemon world?
My advice would be to spin the mod as a "Pre-technology" pokeworld. The world before the pokeball and modern technology made training pokemon easy and eating them unnecessary. That way you could treat them as normal creatures, use cagetraps to catch them, and then train and eat them as humans surely did in prehistoric pokemon times.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2016, 05:21:47 pm
-snip-I totally agree, that's what I was intending to bring up in the OP. It's savage but, the least nonsensical. Essentially a 'middle-ages' Pokemon world?
My advice would be to spin the mod as a "Pre-technology" pokeworld. The world before the pokeball and modern technology made training pokemon easy and eating them unnecessary. That way you could treat them as normal creatures, use cagetraps to catch them, and then train and eat them as humans surely did in prehistoric pokemon times.
Yes. That's the way I can see it best working within the systems of DF.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 05:25:32 pm
Another thing to think about (sorry for the edit, better than a double post though), should we go with the different non-modern weapons (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weaponry_in_the_Pok%C3%A9mon_world)from the anime and such? Things like katanas, spears, shurikens, etc...
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2016, 07:15:01 pm
As for different weapons you can always make different civilizations with different weapons. However, none of that is really in the pokemon games really.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2016, 09:25:37 pm
Another thing to think about is how you're going to set up the evolution system. You could set each pokemon as a creature (but there wouldn't be any evolving). Or you could do sets (like squirtle, warturtle, and blastois) as one creature with castes. I would do the second one so you could control the population ratios of the pokemon so that the later evolutions are more rare than the weaker earlier evolutions. In addition, that would allow groups of one "species" to show up all at once (like a blastois shows up with several squirtles).
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 09:32:46 pm
(I'm gonna double post because I'm evil.)Castes are the best way to handle it. The old mod by Monk12 and Old Greg (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102446.msg3028191#msg3028191) did it that way. It works pretty well, two castes per evolution, one male one female. :p Thats what I would go with atleast
Another thing to think about is how you're going to set up the evolution system. You could set each pokemon as a creature (but there wouldn't be any evolving). Or you could do sets (like squirtle, warturtle, and blastois) as one creature with castes. I would do the second one so you could control the population ratios of the pokemon so that the later evolutions are more rare than the weaker earlier evolutions. In addition, that would allow groups of one "species" to show up all at once (like a blastois shows up with several squirtles).
Post by: darkflagrance on April 14, 2016, 09:40:38 pm
You can also neuter humans. Remove their bite and kick attacks. Give them splash, tackle, and flail. Then they will be at the mercy of rattata. No weapons or armor, just run and hope companion pikachu kills the pidgey.
Or you can look at pokemon x nobunagas ambition where the trainers are samurai.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 09:49:52 pm
You would probably be able to pull off the pokemon mystery dungeon universe. All mons as part of a single civ, in adventure mode you go on missions, you build havens from the dungeons as fortresses, your pokemon speak, fall in love, fight for themselves rather than follow a trainer like a pet.This is where I think we're stumped lol.
You can also neuter humans. Remove their bite and kick attacks. Give them splash, tackle, and flail. Then they will be at the mercy of rattata. No weapons or armor, just run and hope companion pikachu kills the pidgey.
Or you can look at pokemon x nobunagas ambition where the trainers are samurai.
On one hand, there's enough canon from the first series alone to support trainers being samurai, with pokemon to aid them.
On the other hand we could find a way to just exclude the humans all together. I think having them all be one civ would be interesting, and somewhat more lore-friendly. Finding a civ of Magnemites, a civ of Bulbasaurs, etc... to be fair though, there wouldn't really be any control. Starting a new fortress would be poke-roulette. And the different civs would spawn in the most random places. I mean, Magmars in an ocean biome? I think not lol. I just am not sure if having them all crammed into one civ is the best idea? I'm not even sure.
Right now I'm a little stuck on the idea of how cool it would be if we had just civs of Pokemon, and for them to start developing their own technology. I mean come on, a civ of Machops that developed their own crude armor, tell me that doesn't sound awesome lol.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 14, 2016, 09:56:52 pm
I recommend this: one civ of samurai-ainu who need their steel to hold their ground vs pokemon.
Civs of each type that randomly spawn mons from that type as castes. Maybe a guild civ that's basically the civilization of mystery dungeon with all mons as members
Wild uncivilized mons that humans can tame and use vs civilized mons or human invaders.
Ghost type nightcreatures who convert other mons or humans into ghosts.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 10:00:47 pm
Ocean biomes are basically broken right now if you've never tried them.This is pretty interesting, so far I'm into it. Would we still have every Pokemon tameable?
I recommend this: one civ of samurai-ainu who need their steel to hold their ground vs pokemon.
Civs of each type that randomly spawn mons from that type as castes. Maybe a guild civ that's basically the civilization of mystery dungeon with all mons as members
Wild uncivilized mons that humans can tame and use vs civilized mons or human invaders.
Ghost type nightcreatures who convert other mons or humans into ghosts.
Edit: My apologies I think I just misunderstood what you meant. I'm really enjoying this honestly. Would we make the samurai-civ the only playable one?
Post by: darkflagrance on April 14, 2016, 11:01:07 pm
If we can just convert all the old pokemon to the new version, most of the work is already done.
Just segregate some civs of pokemon of the same type. You could probably put the gastly line into poison, dratini line into normal, reduce the amount of necessary civilizations. You could also go by team instead, maybe a team rocket civ with mons used historically by team rocket members.
To make a creature for a pokemon civ, you have to define a new pokemon creature with castes of each pokemon that can live in the civ. So the fire civ would have vulpix, magmar, and growlithe castes. We could use the type guidelines of the pokemon TCG, with rock, ground, and fighting types in one group, ice and water types in one group, dragon and normal types in one group, etc.
For humans, try to find a Japanese language raw file someone else already made for DF, if you want the flavor. It should be as simple as removing their basic attacks to neuter them. Probably remove the other civilizations, since we're using pokemon civs instead. We probably do want multiple hostile human civs so that we can have pokemon battles.
The game would be like the world of Sir Aaron and the Red Army (http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Army). Humans and pokemon fighting each other to death, in armor. Pokemon being sentient and capable of organizing themselves, some of them might not wait for human orders but form their own warlike civilizations along mystery dungeon lines.
Some pokemon will have COMMON DOMESTIC to make all human civs bring them, and other wild pokemon can get tamed as necessary.
Spoiler: "IF you plan to start from scratch" (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 14, 2016, 11:30:19 pm
I had some other thoughts before but scrapped them. I left some in the spoiler below.Alright, definitely feeling the Japanese lang file.
If we can just convert all the old pokemon to the new version, most of the work is already done.
Just segregate some civs of pokemon of the same type. You could probably put the gastly line into poison, dratini line into normal, reduce the amount of necessary civilizations. You could also go by team instead, maybe a team rocket civ with mons used historically by team rocket members.
To make a creature for a pokemon civ, you have to define a new pokemon creature with castes of each pokemon that can live in the civ. So the fire civ would have vulpix, magmar, and growlithe castes. We could use the type guidelines of the pokemon TCG, with rock, ground, and fighting types in one group, ice and water types in one group, dragon and normal types in one group, etc.
For humans, try to find a Japanese language raw file someone else already made for DF, if you want the flavor. It should be as simple as removing their basic attacks to neuter them. Probably remove the other civilizations, since we're using pokemon civs instead. We probably do want multiple hostile human civs so that we can have pokemon battles.
The game would be like the world of Sir Aaron and the Red Army (http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Army). Humans and pokemon fighting each other to death, in armor. Pokemon being sentient and capable of organizing themselves, some of them might not wait for human orders but form their own warlike civilizations along mystery dungeon lines.
Some pokemon will have COMMON DOMESTIC to make all human civs bring them, and other wild pokemon can get tamed as necessary.Spoiler: "IF you plan to start from scratch" (click to show/hide)
Next, lets start with the 151 and work our way through the generations. I definitely don't think we should stop at 151, but, it will be a lot of work. I think converting the old mod is our best option, I mean, they already worked out so much. Handling types and moves and such. It'll probably be a mix of recreating the raws and using the old functions.
Seeing as I don't think it's quite possible to make levels a thing (Unless I'm spacing something), we definitely should make sure they're all relative to a 'base' level.
Do we really need to make the different poke-civs though if we're gonna have the attack-less humans? I mean the COMMON_DOMESTIC idea is great, they'll all bring certain pokemon, then we could have the different teams (rocket, aqua, magma, etc...) that are humans that bring the respective Pokemon as other civs... Just a thought :P
Post by: darkflagrance on April 15, 2016, 12:07:25 am
Also, the foe humans are not guaranteed to bring any animals at all, which is why I prefer having the foes be pokemon themselves, so they are certain to be able to fight. Plus I've always thought it was illogical that pokemon did not have their own form of civilization, given how intelligent they basically are.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 15, 2016, 12:18:15 am
That's entirely up to you. It's not too hard to create new entity files. Your best bet would be to have custom clothing items called "Team Plasma Uniform", "Team Galactic Uniform", etc. to distinguish foe human civs. The problem would be that everyone would pull from common domestic, including the samurai humans. Also, the foe humans are not guaranteed to bring any animals at all, plus I've always thought it was illogical that pokemon did not have their own form of civilization, given how intelligent they basically are.Very true. I wasn't planning on making the teams' civs just bring pets, I was thinking about just cloning the human creature and making the pokemon, castes, so as that they're brought along because they're 'members' of the civilization. I agree the pet system is pretty unreliable honestly, and it would be kinda frustrating having a "siege" where it's 50 humans running around like lunatics while nobody's doing anything.
Pokemon civilizations would be interesting however and, I do agree on the lack of their own forms of civilization. It doesn't make much sense. They would be such a minor civilization however. I don't see much of a trading value (what would they bring..? berries?), their ambushes might be a pain in the butt, but would a community of Pokemon really come and start a war with humans? I don't really think that would happen.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 15, 2016, 12:30:24 am
I mean, what else do you usually buy from caravans?
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 15, 2016, 12:56:41 am
Pokemon could use equipment like focus bands and choice scarves. They could bring rare materials like fire stone or reaper cloth. In super mystery dungeon they can ind emera gems. And don't underestimate the utility of food.Oooh very true. Also little crafts would be nice for some filler flavor. It seems pretty reasonable that some pokemon might carve little figures out of wood or something.
I mean, what else do you usually buy from caravans?
Lets take a look at what we've got so far.
- Fanciful/mega-beast legendaries
- Keep only humans but remove any attacks so they aren't running around ripping apart little pokemon
- Possible steel-based samurai weaponry/armor
- Uncivilized 'wild' pokemon that are tameable, letting the humans use them
- Japanese lang file
- Have some common domestic pokemon that most human civs should have
- Possibly different team-based civs as either humans and pokemon mix or just pokemon
- Pokemon bringing trade goods like focus bands, choice scarves, rare materials (fire stone, reaper cloth, etc), food of course
Some things that need to be addressed by looking at this list:
- If we have the samurai-civ, they're going to need someone to fight other than just wild pokemon. Other samurai civs are an option.
- Following up on that, with the team-based civs, do we include humans in them or not? It could work either way. In one case we make the pokemon castes so you get a mix of humans and pokemon, on the other hand we just have different sole-pokemon civs based on teams.
- Do we also, aside from the teams, want a mystery dungeon-like civ of bands of pokemon that have congregated into their own civilization?
I think the two work hand-in-hand. If we have the teams include humans, we don't really need other aggressive samurai civilizations because they'll have the teams in armor to deal with.
Also, I'm 100% for the non-team-based civ, it would provide possibly reliable allies, as well as a nice break from dealing with rockets and such. After all this is a Pokemon mod, not a 'go slash down team rocket' mod.
If there's anything else to address or bring up, feel free of course. I'd love to get a start soon on some of the basics, like starting the entity file and starting the creatures.
Last thing, we're for the idea of replacing current crops with berries and apricorns? Seeing as pokeballs aren't a thing in this era, we could repurpose the apricorns to be 'smashed' and then have the juice collected. I think that's how it would work. Either a juice or an edible nut-like product. We could also allow the creation of poke-blocks from the berries, which would give different effects.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 15, 2016, 01:17:00 am
If you want, you could go down the route of creating original alchemy based on items found pokemon games. For example, you could bring in meteors from Ruby/Sapphire that could be forged into weapons, or shadow crystal from Pokemon Ranger as another weapon material. You might also model fire stones, water stones, etc. as metals that can be used as weapons, and combined into stronger alloys like the life crystals that made up the Ultimate Weapon from XY.
You could go with retro-teams - instead of being cults or mafia, they would be kingdoms based around control of pokemon. Imagine what Team Plasma's ancient equivalent must have been like in the days when their king ruled with the support of the fused Unova legendaries, or what the factions might have been like during the war that created the Kalos Ultimate Weapon. To build off pokemon and humans in the same "creature", Diamond and Pearl mention that humans and pokemon used to marry - this could be its own themed civilization, where humans have entered into "degenerate" relationships with pokemon that make them unplayable and irrevocably hostile to player civs. You could also make an "ancient" themed civilization like the one in the Unova desert that uses Unown and Sigilyph, Regis and Golurk, Claydol and other mystic, psychic pokemon which are hinted as having an ancient, artificial origin.
So perhaps you'd have the player human civ, variously differently flavored warlike human civs that enslave pokemon but use their own weapons to fight also, a civ where pokemon and humans are both spawned as citizens, multiple civs of always hostile pokemon (maybe just a ghost pokemon civ, or civs of powerful or threatening pokemon), and a mystery dungeon civ to trade with, along with any other civs that cross your mind.
More enemy civs means more fighting, and what's a pokemon experience without battles?
You could probably replace all crops with berry/apricorn equivalents. It would simplify the raws and make plants more powerful.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 15, 2016, 01:51:14 am
You probably want to make pokemon out of some tough material to replicate their in-game "resilience".I love the ancient idea, I was thinking of the same thing. Especially with all those fossil pokemon we see in the games that existed 'thousands of years ago' it would be so cool seeing them alive and ubiquitous with the world.
If you want, you could go down the route of creating original alchemy based on items found pokemon games. For example, you could bring in meteors from Ruby/Sapphire that could be forged into weapons, or shadow crystal from Pokemon Ranger as another weapon material. You might also model fire stones, water stones, etc. as metals that can be used as weapons, and combined into stronger alloys like the life crystals that made up the Ultimate Weapon from XY.
You could go with retro-teams - instead of being cults or mafia, they would be kingdoms based around control of pokemon. Imagine what Team Plasma's ancient equivalent must have been like in the days when their king ruled with the support of the fused Unova legendaries, or what the factions might have been like during the war that created the Kalos Ultimate Weapon. To build off pokemon and humans in the same "creature", Diamond and Pearl mention that humans and pokemon used to marry - this could be its own themed civilization, where humans have entered into "degenerate" relationships with pokemon that make them unplayable and irrevocably hostile to player civs. You could also make an "ancient" themed civilization like the one in the Unova desert that uses Unown and Sigilyph, Regis and Golurk, Claydol and other mystic, psychic pokemon which are hinted as having an ancient, artificial origin.
So perhaps you'd have the player human civ, variously differently flavored warlike human civs that enslave pokemon but use their own weapons to fight also, a civ where pokemon and humans are both spawned as citizens, multiple civs of always hostile pokemon (maybe just a ghost pokemon civ, or civs of powerful or threatening pokemon), and a mystery dungeon civ to trade with, along with any other civs that cross your mind.
More enemy civs means more fighting, and what's a pokemon experience without battles?
You could probably replace all crops with berry/apricorn equivalents. It would simplify the raws and make plants more powerful.
These different civ ideas are great too! Right now for the hostile pokemon-only civs I'm thinking a ghost/psychic one, dragon/dark, and fire/fighting. I would love to include possibly a few electric/steel/ice but, they're pretty unrelated and there wouldnt be very many solid "these belong here" choices. Unlike the other type combos that seem pretty fitting.
Im about to crash but, tomorrow I/we (not sure who all wants to work on this, I'm fine solo but if anyone wants to pitch in thats okay too) can start on the skeletons for the civs, probably get the plants taken care of, and start converting the old pokemon creature raws.
Post by: Roboson on April 15, 2016, 03:08:26 am
Post by: darkflagrance on April 15, 2016, 07:26:05 am
Post by: Roboson on April 15, 2016, 10:38:25 am
The idea is that humans don't bite or kick pokemon to death barehanded but must use specialized weapons.
Why? It certainly seems that if an unarmed person was attacked by a Rattata, they'd punch or kick it instead of just standing there as it bit them. It would be weird to make humans just stand there and get ripped to shreds. There are tons of pokemon that a person could fight bare handed (especially when you consider size).
Post by: darkflagrance on April 15, 2016, 10:55:17 am
The idea is that humans don't bite or kick pokemon to death barehanded but must use specialized weapons.
Why? It certainly seems that if an unarmed person was attacked by a Rattata, they'd punch or kick it instead of just standing there as it bit them. It would be weird to make humans just stand there and get ripped to shreds. There are tons of pokemon that a person could fight bare handed (especially when you consider size).
Probably just remove biting for immersion.
Post by: AceSV on April 15, 2016, 02:09:49 pm
Personally, I would not try to recreate the world of pokemon, but think of it as how would pokemon adapt to the world of Dwarf Fortress. In general, I would be more in favor of world where pokemon form their own civilizations, I think it would be too difficult to bend DF into a trainer/tamer system. Maybe you have a selection of relatively equal pokemon, like charmander, pikachu, clefairy, geodude, etc, that you can play as, and others are wild animals or mega beasts. Another compromise could be to make it a world of Pokemon Anthros (http://akuoreo.deviantart.com/art/Wraith-s-Pokemon-Teams-164724016).
I wonder, can you make a transformation syndrome that is triggered by skill level? So if a Charmander improves its Fighting skill to 4 it becomes Charmeleon, if it improves to 8 it becomes Charizard.
I think you can assign specific animals to specific civs by manipulating their biomes. For example, camels are not common domestic, but they will be included if a civ builds a site in a biome with camels. So you should be able to make a desert civilization with desert pokemon, a tropical broadleaf civ with tropical broadleaf pokemon, etc. I've noticed that bad things happen if your civ doesn't have wagon pullers available.
For nobles, maybe you could have Gym Leader replace Mayor and Champion replace King. To my knowledge, your local government will have a symbol associated with it, maybe there's a way to make that symbol your city's badge.
Food and booze would be an interesting issue, since the canon goes back and forth between pokemon eating other pokemon or only berries or not eating anything at all. A berry mixer could make for an interesting workshop.
And actually, I can only get so far into something like this before I want to start making things up for myself. It might be fun to just make a world where creatures like electric rodents and rock snakes exist but follow the nature of Dwarf Fortress more precisely. Dwarrowmon perhaps.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 15, 2016, 02:40:23 pm
The reason the bite/kick attacks didn't seem like a good idea is because, for me atleast, I just feel like the ancient people would have like, respect, for the Pokemon and not go around chomping their limbs off because they ran too close to each other.
Alcohol would essentially just be berry wines as far as I can see. There are, in the first series atleast, certain crops like rice, and if we wanted to we could limit the crops to the different berries/apricorns and then include Japan-specific crops. Also lets not forget, Pokemon lay eggs, and with the mechanics of DF, it's very likely you'll end up with a lot of 'pikachu egg biscuits'.
By the way it turns out apricorn juice is a thing:
Quote from: Bulbapedia
Apricorns were introduced in Generation II, where their sole use was to create custom Poké Balls. In the remakes of the Generation II games, Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, Apricorns can be blended into drinks called Aprijuice. These drinks will raise a Pokémon's Pokéathlon stats: Speed, Power, Skill, Stamina, and Jump.
Then there are 'small cake-like confections that can be fed to pokemon' known as Poke-puffs from gen 4.
The pokemon themselves appear to also have been fine with eating other pokemon.
Quote from: Bulbapedia
n early Pokémon games, it seems that most Pokémon were somewhat more animal-like. As such, wild Pokémon were portrayed as eating one another by some sources, in a very animal-like, prey-predator system... For example, The Official Pokémon Handbook's entry for Pidgeot says that "When they hunt, Pidgeot fly on the surface of the water at top speed to catch unsuspecting Fish element prey like Magikarp."
Lastly, for humans eating pokemon, Bulbapedia (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_food)says this:
Quote from: Bulbapedia
Meat is often shown in the anime, but while it has never been directly shown to come from Pokémon, no other food source has yet been explained. It is known that some Pokémon produce edible foods and by-products such as milk, nuts and fruit. These can be safely harvested with little or no harm or discomfort to the Pokémon. However, it has been mentioned that some Pokémon are hunted and used for their meat: Farfetch'd in particular are noted for making a good meal, especially when cooked with leek, and were nearly hunted to extinction because of this, ultimately leading to their rareness.
During a story arc within the Gen II games and their remakes, the newly reformed Team Rocket begin stealing Slowpoke, cutting off their tails and then selling them as a rare delicacy.
As for the transformation syndrome, I think there was something like that in the old mod, I'd have to take a look. I know I remember syndromes that did stuff, but, I cant remember if they got evolution actually working.
I agree on the nobles thing, both of those would be pretty cool, except I'm not sure about mayor and king. Maybe, militia commander = gym leader? I do like having a gym leader and champion though.
Post by: Nahere on April 16, 2016, 12:19:55 am
As for setting, a tribal pokemon-only mystery dungeon style would be interesting, although if you're using dfhack it might be possible to do a satisfying pokemon catching system in adventure mode.
I think one of the old pokemon mods actually had two settings: pokemon only for adventure mode and dwarves with cage traps for fort mode.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 11:45:49 am
If you aren't going to have each evolution line as its own creature, I would recommend splitting pokemon up based on egg groups, not type. It would still be weird to have, say, a jolteon and vulpix producing a diglett, but at least things would be able breed together when they can in the games.You do have a point actually. Old Greg and Monk12's mod did have two versions, for either adventure mode or fort mode. Also using DFHack would be fun, I don't know off the top of my head though if we could do that.
As for setting, a tribal pokemon-only mystery dungeon style would be interesting, although if you're using dfhack it might be possible to do a satisfying pokemon catching system in adventure mode.
I think one of the old pokemon mods actually had two settings: pokemon only for adventure mode and dwarves with cage traps for fort mode.
Should we split it into two modes? What would be the pros/cons of two different modes? What would we do differently in each of them?
I mean I think we could possibly, seeing as we want samurai peeps in fort mode but we're also talking about the mystery-dungeon-like stuff. I'm not gonna make the final call right now but, we do need to decide for sure, are we going with the samurai-stuff or nah? I was really for the idea but, I also kinda like the pokemon-only stuff.
Quick update I'm working on the creature raws for the Pokemon, as of right now they're split by evolution line. We can change this, but it's will make the most sense this way in terms of breeding. Yeah you might accidentally have two charmanders hatch an egg with a charizard but there really isnt anything we can do about that. By the way, upon inspecting the raws from the old mod, evolution is handled ;)
Edit: About that, I'm really not seeing anything we need to update from the old raws to make them compatible. As of right now, literally just dumping the old raws into the new ones works, at least in arena testing mode. I decided to start playing with different things, and, they work fine. Of course we'll make our own tweaks and changes and whatnot, I wouldn't just blatantly rip off someone elses mod and rename it to my own. But, as far as updating to .42 compatibility, I'm not exactly sure what, if anything, we need to handle...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 03:01:20 pm
The only thing missing might be gaits. Have you checked the error log?
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 03:13:38 pm
We'd actually most likely make custom creatures associated with any specific civ that we add. For example, a mystery dungeon civ would have a custom creature with wigglytuffs, kangaskhans, ampharos, duskull, persian, chatot, kecleon, etc. A human alongside pokemon civ might have humans and pokemon as castes in different hybrid creature.I have. When I was testing arena mode earlier I got a crash when I tried to spawn in a ponyta. The log is actually loaded with stuff.
The only thing missing might be gaits. Have you checked the error log?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I checked and I didn't miss any files when I copied them over. So this is interesting. I wonder if this happened in the old version too? It might not be us. We can fix it anyways of course but, it's still interesting.
Also as a side note I'm almost starting to think it might actually be easier to write our own BDPs and such, and pretty much recreate the creatures ourselves.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 06:26:52 pm
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 07:00:40 pm
It's probably fine then. So that would mean a lot of the work is already done. Perhaps just copy from quadruped body from a vanilla creature or another pokemon for the ones that are broken. Then making the entity files for the desired replacement civs would be the next step.Excellent! So we're still feeling samurai-humans for the fort mode civ? I figured we could snag some of the different feudal Japan nobles for this civ's nobles. As for the Pokemon civs, the list of Pokemon by habitat (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pok%C3%A9mon_by_habitat) page could be a guide. It goes up to 3rd gen, so, it gives us a start and then some. Do we want to divide it by habitat instead of type? It would add some nice variety to the different regions.
This would give us humans, grassland pokemon, forest pokemon, 'water's edge' pokemon, sea pokemon, cave pokemon, mountain pokemon, rough terrain pokemon, urban pokemon and rare pokemon. We'd have to do some manipulation of which biomes they get, we definitely couldn't limit it to exclusively grassland (thats more like common domestic anyways) for example.
Or we could get the different biomes from DF (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Biome) and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.
Of course there's also egg groups (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_by_Egg_Group) we could base off of, which is amorphous, bug, ditto, dragon, fairy, field, flying, grass, human-like, mineral, monster, undiscovered, unknown, and water 1/2/3.
What do you think?
Post by: AceSV on April 16, 2016, 09:48:37 pm
Or we could get the different biomes from DF (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Biome) and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.
The DF can nit-pick biomes much more finely than that, if you want. It might be useful to distinguish between rocky wastelands and deserts when placing rock-types or tropical jungles vs temperate forests. I'm pretty sure pools, lakes and rivers do not work as a civilzation biome. Ocean does work. Note that for the purposes of pokemon appearance, there are several underground biomes, the 3 cavern layers, wet or dry, and the magma layer.
I wouldn't mind taking an afternoon to distribute pokemon into DF biomes. Any pointers before I start would be appreciated.
I guess I don't see why they need to be samurai themed humans. I would be perfectly happy having dwarves raise/fight pokemon.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 10:16:28 pm
Or we could get the different biomes from DF (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Biome) and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.
The DF can nit-pick biomes much more finely than that, if you want. It might be useful to distinguish between rocky wastelands and deserts when placing rock-types or tropical jungles vs temperate forests. I'm pretty sure pools, lakes and rivers do not work as a civilzation biome. Ocean does work. Note that for the purposes of pokemon appearance, there are several underground biomes, the 3 cavern layers, wet or dry, and the magma layer.
I wouldn't mind taking an afternoon to distribute pokemon into DF biomes. Any pointers before I start would be appreciated.
I guess I don't see why they need to be samurai themed humans. I would be perfectly happy having dwarves raise/fight pokemon.
That would be amazing if you divided them all up into different civs for this project. Just think about the games and the anime, and use your instinct as to where you think pokemon would be.
The samurai thing was just what we came up with. The anime supports it, there's plenty of references to feudal Japan in it. You're right though, I mean it doesn't *have* to be feudal-Japan-like. It very well could be a mix of Pokemon and DF, instead of just a conversion.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 11:09:35 pm
Also, maybe we should make caverns extremely hostile so that it becomes easy to "dig too deep".
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 12:29:06 pm
Also, maybe we should make caverns extremely hostile so that it becomes easy to "dig too deep".They probably will be whether we intend to or not, I mean they'll be loaded with unowns and gravelers and onixes.....
Anyways, I started on the berries. The old mod actually had syndromes and had effects, as well as a couple of the berries already written, but I decided to just rewrite our own. I did the first 20, from cheri to pinap. There's a bunch of different biomes and this version of the file should populate the world everywhere with atleast 1 or 2 plants.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If anyone wants to go over it, make some revisions, check for typos and whatnot, be our guest :) I figured this was a start though.
Post by: AceSV on April 17, 2016, 12:57:30 pm
For the most part, I've picked biomed based on the life-form that the pokemon was based on, but I've been trying to keep it kind of balanced too. The original games were based on Japan's biomes, so the game/anime suggestions aren't well balanced for DF biomes. Right now, each evolution group appears in only one biome.
There were a bunch of pokemon that could go pretty much anywhere, mostly from GenIII. I've skipped them for now so we can deliberate.
I also skipped the starters because I don't know if you want to allow them to run around freely, of they should only be obtained throw special interactions. Entries with a ? on them are pokemon that have to be obtained specially in the games, and might want to be handled differently from their earlier evolutions.
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Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 01:27:36 pm
I'm pretty impartial about most of these but, Duskull/Dusclops I feel like definitely belong in underground 2/3. Solrock and Lunatone and Baltoy/Claydol could probably be tossed in DESERT_ROCK.
Dunsparce, Snubbull, Granbull, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, and Illumise could all go into ANY_GRASSLAND or GRASSLAND_TEMPERATE.
Kecleon is definitely a FOREST_TEMPERATE_BROADLEAF.
The rest I'm not sure what we'd put them in. MAYBE Shuppet and Chimecho could go in underground 2/3 with Duskull/Dusclops.
Anyways though, like I said, excellent job, well done!
Post by: AceSV on April 17, 2016, 03:25:59 pm
I've moved some things around since the previous one. The Tropical Wetland was looking kinda bare, so it got a lot of the left-overs. I prefer to space out the types, so that mountains are not all rock types or forests are not all plant types, so that will explain a few oddities you might see. The only really weird thing was that I put Nosepass in the Tropical Ocean, thinking that it will crawl out of the water and walk around on the beach like a crab.
Should I do the later generations as well?
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Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 03:51:34 pm
Next two orders of business would be entities and the creatures themselves. For the moment we can put legendaries on hold and just make them fanciful and known by all civs. We're going to need to decide which pokemon are COMMON_DOMESTIC, which we want to be PET and not PET_EXOTIC (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Creature_token#PET_EXOTIC) (meaning not tamed in worldgen but still tameable), which to be UBIQUITOUS, and lastly which to be WAGON_PULLER/PACK_ANIMAL. We will need to make a wagon puller creature before others if we want the game to be testable without other creatures, because if you aren't already aware, a lack of wagon pullers makes for serious complications.
If we decide to go with dwarves as our entity, it solves the ethical issues of eating Pokemon (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_food#Eating_other_Pok.C3.A9mon). Dwarves wouldn't give a s***. The first series of the anime makes plenty of references to Pokemon once being eaten, as do a few of the games, but it was later scrapped as being an ethical issue.
Lastly, as a final prerequisite before starting creatures, do we want them (and their entities? are we still going with entities of pokemon) to be based on egg groups, the now-completed list of areas Pokemon will be found, or something else? Personally I still think the creatures should be based on their evolution chains, with each one as castes. It solves the issue of an onix and a magby doing the do and producing a slugma.
I think it kinda makes sense having both wild and civs of the same pokemon. Some decide to gather in groups, others just hangout in their biome. Up for debate though for sure.
Anyways, as a side note, I'm going through some tough life-stuff so, I'll probably be going off and on between not being around much and being around all the time. It's nice having a project to distract myself with :P
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 17, 2016, 04:23:15 pm
Evolution can be tricky though. DF doesn't really work well with multi-stage transformations OR growth over time. Also, worldgen usually can't handle it.
One possible mechanism: make a single, massive "evolution" interaction that has a specific syndrome effect for each pokemon species transforming it into its evolved form after a certain amount of time with a certain (low) probability. Then, attach that interaction to EVERY pokemon melee attack. Whenever a pokemon is injured in melee, it has a chance of triggering its evolution, which (if it is triggered) will occur later. This is probably the only way to make it work in worldgen.
Every pokemon should have the LARGE_PREDATOR tag, even small or herbivorous ones. Small species should have high bravery so they don't run away immediately (unless they are supposed to, like abra or something). They do attack trainers who wander through their territory, after all.
Also worth noting: If they have the CAN_LEARN tag, they will be functionally sapient, pets will be citizens, and they will not be eaten. Kind of annoying, since growing stronger through battle is kind of pokemon's whole deal. They will become leaner and more muscular if they fight regularly, so not all is lost.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 04:31:42 pm
Yeah, most of the specific mechanisms in the Pokemon world are pretty much unworkable in DF, so I'd say just have them be animals and set the game in the past. No need to do the whole egg group thing I think, just make the evolution chains represent a species.What you described for evolution is almost exactly how the previous mod handled it. One giant syndrome for all the different pokemon, with each of them listed.
Evolution can be tricky though. DF doesn't really work well with multi-stage transformations OR growth over time. Also, worldgen usually can't handle it.
One possible mechanism: make a single, massive "evolution" interaction that has a specific syndrome effect for each pokemon species transforming it into its evolved form after a certain amount of time with a certain (low) probability. Then, attach that interaction to EVERY pokemon melee attack. Whenever a pokemon is injured in melee, it has a chance of triggering its evolution, which (if it is triggered) will occur later. This is probably the only way to make it work in worldgen.
Every pokemon should have the LARGE_PREDATOR tag, even small or herbivorous ones. Small species should have high bravery so they don't run away immediately (unless they are supposed to, like abra or something). They do attack trainers who wander through their territory, after all.
Also worth noting: If they have the CAN_LEARN tag, they will be functionally sapient, pets will be citizens, and they will not be eaten. Kind of annoying, since growing stronger through battle is kind of pokemon's whole deal. They will become leaner and more muscular if they fight regularly, so not all is lost.
On the note for LARGE_PREDATOR, the wiki mentions
Quote from: DF Wiki
Only one group of "large predators" will appear on any given mapMeaning on any given map you could end up with nothing but Magikarp, or nothing but Steelix way down in the caverns. This seems problematic lol. Its a shame LIKES_FIGHTING has been deprecated, I'm not sure if there's a replacement tag.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 17, 2016, 04:41:54 pm
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 06:15:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I might take a break from berries and search for other things to do. Perhaps the fanciful creatures. Like I said if anyone wants to take a look, that would be wonderful.
Give them the prone to anger tag that badgers have. You can try editing their personalities as well so they are super-brave and love to brawl, which definitely has effects on your citizens in fortress mode.Ohhh I forgot about that tag. That would work, and make all the different Pokemon even more dangerous >:D I'm imagining this game is going to be really really hard if you don't tame right away :p
Post by: AceSV on April 17, 2016, 06:21:14 pm
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 06:57:52 pm
I would keep a handful of common domestic animals around. Probably horses(wagon pullers), cows(cheese), cats(vermin eaters) and sheep(wool). Pokemon don't strike me as good wagon pullers, as you need a docile animal for that job.Keeping some common domestics is probably a good idea lol.
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
I think the trap avoid would be great for some of the tougher evolved pokemon, but definitely not all of them. I do like the idea of having to evolve your pokemon to get the rarer ones.
Also I went ahead and made all the legendaries' fanciful definitions.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: darkflagrance on April 17, 2016, 07:14:20 pm
I would keep a handful of common domestic animals around. Probably horses(wagon pullers), cows(cheese), cats(vermin eaters) and sheep(wool). Pokemon don't strike me as good wagon pullers, as you need a docile animal for that job.
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
But my Moomoo Milk! My skitties chasing vermin! My mareep farms! My Rhyhorn/Gogoat riders (They're canon to Kalos!)
Also
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/pokemon/images/b/b7/Ethan's_Tauros.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120215184930)
(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/6/64/Shellby_Tauros.png/200px-Shellby_Tauros.png)
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 07:15:13 pm
Why not both? ;DI would keep a handful of common domestic animals around. Probably horses(wagon pullers), cows(cheese), cats(vermin eaters) and sheep(wool). Pokemon don't strike me as good wagon pullers, as you need a docile animal for that job.
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
But my Moomoo Milk! My skitties chasing vermin! My mareep farms! My Rhyhorn/Gogoat riders (They're canon to Kalos!)
Post by: darkflagrance on April 17, 2016, 07:16:52 pm
Why not both? ;DI would keep a handful of common domestic animals around. Probably horses(wagon pullers), cows(cheese), cats(vermin eaters) and sheep(wool). Pokemon don't strike me as good wagon pullers, as you need a docile animal for that job.
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
But my Moomoo Milk! My skitties chasing vermin! My mareep farms! My Rhyhorn/Gogoat riders (They're canon to Kalos!)
Seems to detract from the fidelity of the setting and the novelty of the total conversion. After all, you don't see horses or cats in the typical pokemon setting.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 07:18:49 pm
Fair enough. Until we're done with all those creatures I think we'll keep the common domestics. Once we have all their replacements implemented we can remove the old ones.Why not both? ;DI would keep a handful of common domestic animals around. Probably horses(wagon pullers), cows(cheese), cats(vermin eaters) and sheep(wool). Pokemon don't strike me as good wagon pullers, as you need a docile animal for that job.
I was also thinking you might want to make some evolved pokemon Trap-Avoid so that you have to catch their base forms and evolve them.
But my Moomoo Milk! My skitties chasing vermin! My mareep farms! My Rhyhorn/Gogoat riders (They're canon to Kalos!)
Seems to detract from the fidelity of the setting and the novelty of the total conversion. After all, you don't see horses or cats in the typical pokemon setting.
Edit: also sig'd the other post lol. Hope ya dont mind ;)
Edit - make it double!: You might wanna see this link (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Animals_in_the_Pok%C3%A9mon_world) btw. It features dogs and cats and such.
Post by: AceSV on April 17, 2016, 08:28:42 pm
Seems to detract from the fidelity of the setting and the novelty of the total conversion. After all, you don't see horses or cats in the typical pokemon setting.
I feel the opposite. If every civilization has ponyta pulling their wagons, then ponytas lose their intrigue. You need dwarfy animals to do dwarfy things and let the pokemon do pokemon things. It's fine if the plains civ has tauros wagons and the mountain civ has graveler wagons, but DF needs wagon pullers to work and you may not be able to ensure that every civ is generated with a wagon puller. I guess wool and dairy aren't all that important; it can be a major pain to embark without vermin eaters, but at least that won't crash the game. So I could live with just horses as the common domestic animal.
Ponyta and Tauros were pretty rare pokemon in the games, it would seem weird to me if every civ had them pulling wagons all of a sudden. Gogoats pulling wagons makes more sense, since they seem to be widely domesticated, but we haven't gotten up to French pokemon yet. I wouldn't mind hand-picking a few Gen4+ pokemon to do jobs like that, but then I'm not touching any creature files this time. I want to go through the Gen123 list and see which ones might have useful purposes or extracts.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 17, 2016, 08:33:43 pm
For sure don't worry about touching any creature files. I think I'm just going to do the recreation thing. I want to redo the BDPs and such anyways. If you do want to pick out some useful ones that would be great! You definitely don't need too, you've done a bunch so far, but if you're up for it go for it!Seems to detract from the fidelity of the setting and the novelty of the total conversion. After all, you don't see horses or cats in the typical pokemon setting.
I feel the opposite. If every civilization has ponyta pulling their wagons, then ponytas lose their intrigue. You need dwarfy animals to do dwarfy things and let the pokemon do pokemon things. It's fine if the plains civ has tauros wagons and the mountain civ has graveler wagons, but DF needs wagon pullers to work and you may not be able to ensure that every civ is generated with a wagon puller. I guess wool and dairy aren't all that important; it can be a major pain to embark without vermin eaters, but at least that won't crash the game. So I could live with just horses as the common domestic animal.
Ponyta and Tauros were pretty rare pokemon in the games, it would seem weird to me if every civ had them pulling wagons all of a sudden. Gogoats pulling wagons makes more sense, since they seem to be widely domesticated, but we haven't gotten up to French pokemon yet. I wouldn't mind hand-picking a few Gen4+ pokemon to do jobs like that, but then I'm not touching any creature files this time. I want to go through the Gen123 list and see which ones might have useful purposes or extracts.
I do agree though on the diluting the pokemon with a couple of the real world creatures. The anime points at pokemon and real world creatures living together anyways honestly.
Post by: AceSV on April 17, 2016, 10:50:42 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 17, 2016, 11:19:19 pm
On the note for LARGE_PREDATOR, the wiki mentionsQuote from: DF WikiOnly one group of "large predators" will appear on any given mapMeaning on any given map you could end up with nothing but Magikarp, or nothing but Steelix way down in the caverns. This seems problematic lol. Its a shame LIKES_FIGHTING has been deprecated, I'm not sure if there's a replacement tag.
Uh, that isn't true. At all... don't know what it's doing on the wiki. My ROTMK mod gives almost everything LARGE_PREDATOR and they show up fine.
As for mundane animals, I'd say give the mod the standard modular treatment: Don't change any base files, and add a suffix to all the objects added. Then players can insert pokemon into whatever world they want.
Post by: Roboson on April 17, 2016, 11:49:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Feel free to ignore the above stuff. I went through the list and I'm really confused about the wagon pulling and vermin hunting designations.
There are some pokemon labeled as wagon pulling that have no business pulling wagons. Either they aren't physically up for it, or it really doesn't fit the personality of the pokemon. The same can be said about vermin hunters. For example, Skarmory (the giant metal bird pokemon) shouldn't be pulling wagons. And Absol (the pokemon who predicts natural disasters) doesn't seem like the kind to hunt vermin.
It may be better to create a class of common domestic pokemon so that these pokemon, who wouldn't do these things, wont have to. That way there would be the standard wagon pullers (tauros, rapidas, piloswine, camerupt) who it makes sense for them to be pulling wagons, that would always be available. Then you could add ones like golem and tropius who make some sense pulling wagons as special regional options, but you don't have to have Skarmory or Slaking pulling wagons because there's just no better option in that region.
The same arguement for vermin hunters.
Post by: AceSV on April 18, 2016, 08:45:08 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Roboson on April 18, 2016, 10:18:29 am
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 18, 2016, 12:31:21 pm
Oh? Somebody should edit that or start a discussion on the creature tokens page then.On the note for LARGE_PREDATOR, the wiki mentionsQuote from: DF WikiOnly one group of "large predators" will appear on any given mapMeaning on any given map you could end up with nothing but Magikarp, or nothing but Steelix way down in the caverns. This seems problematic lol. Its a shame LIKES_FIGHTING has been deprecated, I'm not sure if there's a replacement tag.
Uh, that isn't true. At all... don't know what it's doing on the wiki. My ROTMK mod gives almost everything LARGE_PREDATOR and they show up fine.
As for mundane animals, I'd say give the mod the standard modular treatment: Don't change any base files, and add a suffix to all the objects added. Then players can insert pokemon into whatever world they want.
Also, I'm not familiar with the suffix thing, care to explain? :P
-snip-I mean, Camerupt has two volcanoes on its back, it's body is filled with molten lava. Dunno about you but I'd be a little nervous having a wagon pulled by a pair of temperamental volcanoes.
Feel free to ignore the above stuff. I went through the list and I'm really confused about the wagon pulling and vermin hunting designations.
There are some pokemon labeled as wagon pulling that have no business pulling wagons. Either they aren't physically up for it, or it really doesn't fit the personality of the pokemon. The same can be said about vermin hunters. For example, Skarmory (the giant metal bird pokemon) shouldn't be pulling wagons. And Absol (the pokemon who predicts natural disasters) doesn't seem like the kind to hunt vermin.
It may be better to create a class of common domestic pokemon so that these pokemon, who wouldn't do these things, wont have to. That way there would be the standard wagon pullers (tauros, rapidas, piloswine, camerupt) who it makes sense for them to be pulling wagons, that would always be available. Then you could add ones like golem and tropius who make some sense pulling wagons as special regional options, but you don't have to have Skarmory or Slaking pulling wagons because there's just no better option in that region.
The same arguement for vermin hunters.
We could make arguments all day honestly as to which pokemon can and can't pull wagons.
AceSV, great job again with that list :P
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of pokemon who could pull wagons. It just seems like there are pokemon who line up better as wagon pullers than others.For sure. It would be nice if we could set like a 'priority' so a civ can use the most likely ones first unless they're not available.
Post by: Roboson on April 18, 2016, 02:01:52 pm
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 19, 2016, 12:47:51 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
[PET_EXOTIC] on strange wagon pullers is the best idea imo. It would be kinda cool seeing one civ using something unique.
If anyone wants me to upload a zip file of all the raw files, let me know :P
Current pastebin with
Post by: darkflagrance on April 19, 2016, 08:21:57 pm
Here's whats done already for us:Spoiler (click to show/hide)I'll be editing this list, striking out names as I go through and revise the biomes, body, stats, etc... I'll also post the revised raws after a family line is done so I can just post the entire family line.Decided to crank this stuff out, so it's done. Yall should take a look <3
[PET_EXOTIC] on strange wagon pullers is the best idea imo. It would be kinda cool seeing one civ using something unique.
If anyone wants me to upload a zip file of all the raw files, let me know :P
Current pastebin withrevised raws only.Entire raw file. (http://pastebin.com/Wqj1qu9c)
I can't believe slowpoketails were already implemented :0
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 19, 2016, 10:52:20 pm
The log:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyways, the raws:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Next I'll get started on a few more creatures, likely going down the Pokedex through gen 1. This would mean the Nidoran family comes next, followed by Clefairy/Clefable, Vulpix/Ninetails, and then Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff. After the comes Zubat/Golbat, which are already done.
Post by: Roboson on April 19, 2016, 11:55:46 pm
One thing that just occurred to me is that with the upcoming fairy type Pokemon and the later dark/ghost type Pokemon, you could make good use of the [EVIL] and [GOOD] tokens.
Edit: Also what was the conclusion on how to handle Pokemon and humans? Is the game set up so humans exist and capture Pokemon with cage traps?
Post by: AceSV on April 20, 2016, 08:49:50 am
Great job cranking those out so fast. Quite impressive.
One thing that just occurred to me is that with the upcoming fairy type Pokemon and the later dark/ghost type Pokemon, you could make good use of the [EVIL] and [GOOD] tokens.
Edit: Also what was the conclusion on how to handle Pokemon and humans? Is the game set up so humans exist and capture Pokemon with cage traps?
Having "evil" pokemon would go against the lore. However, DF [EVIL] is more like extra \m/etal which would be fine.
I was thinking that maybe you could make "Red" pokemon [GOOD] and "Blue" pokemon [EVIL] so that civs can only capture one or the other. Which means that in order to get all of the pokemon, you'll have to ... get this ... trade for them.
It sounded to me like the plan was to have a dwarven civilization raising pokemon, or make the pokemon files separate so that they can be added to vanilla or to any mod.
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 09:32:45 am
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 11:55:57 am
Great job cranking those out so fast. Quite impressive.Thank you! ;D
-snip-
Well I don't necessarily mean the pokemon are evil, I just meant the tags could be used to put ghost Pokemon in haunted areas.All [EVIL] does is
Quote from: DF Wiki
Creature is considered evil and will only show up in evil biomes. Civilizations with USE_EVIL_ANIMALS can domesticate them regardless of exotic status. Has no effect on cavern creatures except to restrict taming. A civilization with evil creatures can colonise evil areas.So I think giving ghost/dark ones [EVIL] would actually work pretty well. We'll need Ace on the case to decide which ones to move out of their old biomes and become evil. Same with [GOOD], it does the same thing with good biomes. I think that's actually really fitting tbh, fairy types in good biomes, dark/ghost ones in evil. We probably don't want all the dark/ghost ones or fairy ones in the good/evil biomes, however. Especially the evil ones, which also work great for HFS (Houndoom anyone?)
As for the Civ stuff, lets just vote right now lol. Humans or dwarves? There's 4 of us (Roboson, AceSV, darkflagrance and myself) so that seems problematic. I could drop my vote seeing as it makes no difference to me really. If you guys would rather PM me your vote, go for it, otherwise just post it and once we're all done, we'll have an answer.
Lastly as for the mod structure, I'm trying not to touch any of the vanilla files. Personally, in my taste, I would like to delete the vanilla creatures except for any needed ones. I would much rather have just Pokemon around.
Oh and I made something fun if you guys want c:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: AceSV on April 20, 2016, 12:31:38 pm
Redoing ghosts and fairies wouldn't be a big deal, that whole process went by very quickly. Only thing is right now, Tropical Swamps have a lot of oogy boogy pokemon in them, so most of the rearranging would be focused on that biome.
We should also decide if we really want to have each pokemon appear in only one biome, as I have it now, if something like a pidgey or ratatta should appear in any biome or if a few should appear in multiple biomes, like a Victreebel appearing in both forests and swamps.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 01:14:17 pm
I'll cast my vote for dwarves.It's totally fine if you wanna do a few in multiple biomes, normal types seem like they would go in a lot of places, especially like ratatta or pidgey. I do definitely think that we should have some biome-exclusives for each biome though, so every place plays a little differently.
Redoing ghosts and fairies wouldn't be a big deal, that whole process went by very quickly. Only thing is right now, Tropical Swamps have a lot of oogy boogy pokemon in them, so most of the rearranging would be focused on that biome.
We should also decide if we really want to have each pokemon appear in only one biome, as I have it now, if something like a pidgey or ratatta should appear in any biome or if a few should appear in multiple biomes, like a Victreebel appearing in both forests and swamps.
Oh also by the way guys, are we still doing the mystery dungeon civ, and the team-based civs?
Edit: Nidorans are coming great! Expect to see something later tonight :D
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 02:07:12 pm
As far as multiple biomes, I think that that makes sense. Like ekans, according to Bulbipedia, eats pidgeys. So ekans could be anywhere pidgey is. But also it could be in tropical locations that pidgey isn't in and just have a different food source.
Which brings up another question, are we making some pokemon with the [CARNIVORE] tag? Some pokemon are based on meat eaters and others (like ekans) are specifically mention eating other pokemon.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 05:20:31 pm
-snip-Currently none of the Pokemon feature the [CARNIVORE] tag, however I think we could. It's been mentioned multiple times that Pokemon eat other Pokemon, and it honestly makes sense. I'm in favor of it.
As far as multiple biomes, I think that that makes sense. Like ekans, according to Bulbipedia, eats pidgeys. So ekans could be anywhere pidgey is. But also it could be in tropical locations that pidgey isn't in and just have a different food source.
Which brings up another question, are we making some pokemon with the [CARNIVORE] tag? Some pokemon are based on meat eaters and others (like ekans) are specifically mention eating other pokemon.
I'm trying currently to figure out their system for the [PHYS_ATT_RANGE] tags, as each creature's phys att range tags have little marks next to them (-, =, +, ++, etc..) and Im not sure exactly what's what. I'd like to figure out how the different marks line up in relation to base value, and then the default values for the different marks in each category. That's honestly what's holding me up right now.
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 05:54:15 pm
-snip-
I'm trying currently to figure out their system for the [PHYS_ATT_RANGE] tags, as each creature's phys att range tags have little marks next to them (-, =, +, ++, etc..) and Im not sure exactly what's what. I'd like to figure out how the different marks line up in relation to base value, and then the default values for the different marks in each category. That's honestly what's holding me up right now.
Here's what the wiki says:
Quote from: The wiki
Each attribute is a number between 0 and 5000, but in dwarven terms anything below 200 is rare [1] and anything above 2500 is extraordinary. In the default raws (/raw/objects/creature_standard.txt), dwarven attributes come in four levels.
Focus and Spatial Sense are referred to as "++", or two steps above default. Their range is defined as [700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500], which sets out six ranges: 700-1200, 1200-1400, etc. Dwarves have an equal chance of dropping into any of these ranges, and an equal probability again of getting any number in that range. So the bottom one-sixth of your dwarves will be really low, the top one-sixth really high, and the two-thirds in the middle huddled around average. This also means that the median and the mean are slightly different: the mean for ++ is 1516.66... while median is 1500.
Strength, Toughness, Analytical Ability, Creativity, Patience, and Memory are +, or one step above default. Their ranges are [450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250], and their mean is 1266.66...
Endurance, Disease Resistance, Recuperation, Intuition, Willpower, Kinesthetic Sense, Linguistic Ability, Musicality, Empathy, and Social Awareness are AVG, or the default. Their ranges are not specified in the raws, but they are [200:700:900:1000:1100:1300:2000] for Physical and [200:800:900:1000:1100:1300:2000] for Mental.
Agility is "-", the only attribute to be below default. Its ranges are [150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500], mean 862.5, median 900.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 06:15:25 pm
Quote
The game comes pre-stocked with several sets of attribute ranges, some better than others. The signs that come after the numeral ranges indicate what level that range represents, but has no effect in of themselves.
0:0:0:0:0:0:0 unattainable
0:100:200:300:400:450:500 ---
0:400:600:750:800:900:1100 --
150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500 -
450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250 +
700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500 ++
1250:1500:1750:2000:2500:3000:5000 +++
5000:5000:5000:5000:5000:5000:5000 max
I took a look at any random creature and noticed that not only are they not using this scale but they're also different for each attribute. For example:
Code: [Select]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:850:950:1000:1050:1100:1150:1250] =
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:800:900:950:1000:1050:1100:1200] -
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:650:750:800:850:900:950:1050] -
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:700:800:850:900:950:1000:1100] =
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:650:750:800:850:900:950:1050] =
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:650:750:800:850:900:950:1050]
That was taken from Ekans' raws.
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 07:17:13 pm
Here are the ekans stats at lv 50 and level 100. They don't exactly line up with the stats you listed though. So I'm not sure what the deal is.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 07:35:06 pm
That previous Pokemodders may have changed them in order to better reflect pokemon stats. Like ekans has good strength and agility there, but not very high toughness or recooperation.I'm not sure either. Going through and rebalancing the stats will be something we need to do it seems.
Here are the ekans stats at lv 50 and level 100. They don't exactly line up with the stats you listed though. So I'm not sure what the deal is.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Okay so I did it, sorta. I made the Nidoran family, complete with Nidoking/Nidoqueen. Currently it doesn't use a moonstone but I'm pretty sure that will later be possible with some interaction/syndrome wizardry.
Here's some screenshots for yall <3
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So the nidoran raws are pretty big, and, they need some work. I'm not very good with creatures and body parts and all that honestly. You can download the .zip file below. You'll find the creatures in creature_pokemon_0_151, as well as parts in body_pokemon. The evolution interaction is done in interaction_pokemon. It's all pretty self explanatory.
This is the download link for the current pack of all raws. (http://www.filedropper.com/4-20-pokemon-mod)
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 08:38:30 pm
-snip
Currently it doesn't use a moonstone but I'm pretty sure that will later be possible with some interaction/syndrome wizardry.
-snip-
If I remember correctly, a gem/stone can be used in an interaction as reagent that produces a stone which boils at room temperature and delivers a syndrome. In that case, evolution stones can be buried in stone layers and dug up by members of the fortress. Then they could be used to evolve pokemon at a custom workshop.
Thats the only way I can think of setting up evolution via stone. Another method is it could be made a consumable (like food or drink) which eliminates the problem of the reaction syndrome gas not quite working, but introduces the problem of something which cant evolve via stone consuming it.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 09:02:00 pm
If I remember correctly, a gem/stone can be used in an interaction as reagent that produces a stone which boils at room temperature and delivers a syndrome. In that case, evolution stones can be buried in stone layers and dug up by members of the fortress. Then they could be used to evolve pokemon at a custom workshop.How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.
So I also started an excel sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EwZnzQS7J-1Wj-ukiFfwLKoJrtRB5ux2hj29-BIW0Vk/edit?usp=sharing) and I was going to start listing out how the old mod handles the -/=/+/etc... ranges for phys att ranges, but I'm noticing inconsistencies even within the same stat.
For example Bulbasaur's Strength is '=' and it's phys att range for strength is "750:850:900:950:1000:1050:1150"
Ivysaur's strength is also '=' yet it's range for strength is "850:950:1000:1050:1100:1150:1250" which is bulbasaur's + 100, in each value.
Venusaur's is '++' and it's range is "1050:1150:1200:1250:1300:1350:1450", which is +200 to Ivysaurs.
I then checked for another '=' range and found Charmander's strength range, which is "750:850:900:950:1000:1050:1150", the same as Bulbasaur's. They might have divided each range by evolution level, seeing as both of these have the same range and are both first evolution Pokemon. I'll continue filling out the chart and seeing if it's all consistent that way.
Edit: Nope. Bulbasaur's toughness is '-' and it's range is "725:825:875:925:975:1025:1125", while charmander's toughness is '-' and it's range is "675:775:825:875:925:975:1075". I really don't know honestly. I'll just list them all out by Pokemon, and then we can maybe see whats going on.
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2016, 09:40:20 pm
-snip-How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.
-snip-
You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 10:12:34 pm
Oh, like this? I'm not sure if this is right but I think this is what you mean.-snip-How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.
-snip-
You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and of course:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: AceSV on April 20, 2016, 10:35:27 pm
At the least, I think you can make it some sort of reaction class or extract class so that only a "stone-able" pokemon is brought to the stone evolution labor. I think it should be the same system as milk, wool and honey animals.
It would be nice if you could select an animal for evolution from the z-menu, like when butchering. Maybe a DFHacker could make that happen.
"-" next to stats is just a tool for the modder, only the numbers do anything in the simulation. The original modder might have just left them after copy and pasting.
I wonder how the original stats were compiled. Pokemon doesn't have an equivalent of the Endurance stat and DF doesn't have an equivalent of Special. And then there's Gait vs Agility. And of course, DF's material properties make as much a difference as stats. Claws made of iron or skin made of stone would have a more direct impact on pokemon performance than the Strength and Toughness stats would. Maybe you should see if Putnam would be interested in this project.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 20, 2016, 10:56:28 pm
What about the new d:details system? Or if the pokemon is in a cage, you could do the old fashioned workshop-stockpile link.That's what I thought too but, I checked the wiki and I didn't find anything. That's why I said I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think, that the farmer's stuff is hardcoded.
At the least, I think you can make it some sort of reaction class or extract class so that only a "stone-able" pokemon is brought to the stone evolution labor. I think it should be the same system as milk, wool and honey animals.
It would be nice if you could select an animal for evolution from the z-menu, like when butchering. Maybe a DFHacker could make that happen.Haha that would be great. I'm not a DFHack wizard but I'm sure someone, somewhere is :p
"-" next to stats is just a tool for the modder, only the numbers do anything in the simulation. The original modder might have just left them after copy and pasting.Right, but, what did they copy and paste from? It would be nice to have a more standard way of coming up with numbers. Maybe we can write a python/js/whatever script that takes a pokemon's base stats, and turns them into a ratio out of the maximum possible base stat, and then multiplies it by something to come up with the DF-equivalents.
I wonder how the original stats were compiled. Pokemon doesn't have an equivalent of the Endurance stat and DF doesn't have an equivalent of Special.
And then there's Gait vs Agility. And of course, DF's material properties make as much a difference as stats. Claws made of iron or skin made of stone would have a more direct impact on pokemon performance than the Strength and Toughness stats would.Gaits do need to be done honestly. I definitely am starting to think maybe we should take a look at the current existing Pokemon before trying to add new ones, and getting them all up to speed -- literally ;)
Maybe you should see if Putnam would be interested in this project.Ohhh, welllllll, I'm not sure if Putnam quite remembers me but, him and I (along with Hugo_the_Dwarf) have an interesting, and slightly unpleasant history... Having other modders would be nice, but I definitely don't want to just dump a project like this onto somebody. It gets overwhelming so quickly, as Monk12, Old Greg, and myself have learned in the past. I tried to reboot this project like 4 years ago and failed because it became way too overwhelming alone. And I was kinda young back then to be honest.
Post by: darkflagrance on April 20, 2016, 11:59:01 pm
Alternatively, if we are going for a python script, the goal might be to take as much information about a given pokemon as possible and output a creature: maybe things like size, gender, etc. could be inputs to a hypothetical script. A python script would only require a properly formatted input source like a csv of pokemon names and traits, and it would ideally be able to output basic pokemon creature entries that could be customized later (with name, castes, and a basic body).
For gaits, I would recommend using perhaps three sets of gaits: one for fast pokemon, one for normal pokemon, and one for fliers (essentially legendary climber because flight is broken on anything in a civ). This would be easy to implement without relying on a script to convert speed/typing/ability into gait.
Post by: Roboson on April 21, 2016, 12:16:24 am
Oh, like this? I'm not sure if this is right but I think this is what you mean.-snip-How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.
-snip-
You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and of course:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was never stellar at workshops, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It seemed like everything is there. Have you tried it in game to see if it works?
I feel that many people might not be able to notice fine differences between carefully plotted out physical strength, endurance, toughness etc. scales. In the interest of efficiency, it might be better to use one or two scales for any pokemon that don't have scales, one for powerful pokemon and one for weak pokemon. You would give powerful pokemon the high scales and weak pokemon the low scales; even a pokemon normally thought of as having high special would be given high scales for physical traits to simulate power. There is precedent for this: many spinoff games ignore how stats are distributed in the main games. This would allow more rapid testing/development for now and allow faster creation of new pokemon without relying on a python script being developed.
Alternatively, if we are going for a python script, the goal might be to take as much information about a given pokemon as possible and output a creature: maybe things like size, gender, etc. could be inputs to a hypothetical script. A python script would only require a properly formatted input source like a csv of pokemon names and traits, and it would ideally be able to output basic pokemon creature entries that could be customized later (with name, castes, and a basic body).
For gaits, I would recommend using perhaps three sets of gaits: one for fast pokemon, one for normal pokemon, and one for fliers (essentially legendary climber because flight is broken on anything in a civ). This would be easy to implement without relying on a script to convert speed/typing/ability into gait.
I think I prefer the difference between pokemon approach. Doing sets may save time, but also it would make the pokemon interchangable and there wouldn't be a point to getting variety. The thing about pokemon is that they are all different, and I think making them into sets runs counter to that idea. While spin-offs may ignore stats, DF has the potential to really simulate their stats and make each pokemon have unique strengths and weaknesses. I think, more than anything, it will add a feeling to the game that each pokemon is worth having.
The same can be said for gaits. Using sets is a way to crank out fast cookie-cutter raws, but that makes for a cookie cutter game. Furthermore, some pokemon have unique walks and others slither or crawl. Using a set for fast, normal, and fliers would lead to some very incorrect gaits.
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 21, 2016, 12:51:31 am
Post by: AceSV on April 21, 2016, 08:32:37 am
Post by: Roboson on April 21, 2016, 09:47:20 am
1) Without premade stat charts
"I'm going to put Machamp in my military because he seems strong and tough. Next I'll add a hitmonlee because its fast and could make a good wrestler. This is going to be the coolest Pokemon military ever."
2) With premade stat charts
"I'm adding golem and chansey to my military because they both have tier one stat charts. And since all pokemon with tier one stats are basically the same from a combat strength standpoint, all I have to do is check to see which are best. Then all the useless pokemon go to the slave pits."
Even with special interactions like firebreath, web spinning, and other powerful moves it just becomes a complicated game of rock paper scissors. Fire beats webs, and made of metal beats fire, but webs beat metal (or something like that).
Now thats not the end of the world, and its an easy corner to cut that will save a lot of time and effort. And if we don't care about trying to give each pokemon stats that make it different from other pokemon then that's fine, it's not something that has to be done to make a decent pokemon mod. But I think, if there is anyone with scripting knowlege in this thread, then making a script to do all the work sounds like a good idea to me.
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 21, 2016, 12:20:36 pm
Post by: Toxicshadow on April 21, 2016, 01:19:06 pm
There are ways to pull off exact stats mathematically, but personally I think the game would be more fun if it was done organically, paying more attention to how the Mon should behave rather than how it does in the game. Keep in mind that DF's combat system is completely different from Pokémon's, so when you translate one system to the other the usefulness of any given Mon might not quite match up. (Apart from material strength, you also have to consider body size, configuration, body parts used in an attack, and the absence or presence of weak points.)The issue becomes balance. The games had it pretty much figured out in terms of balance. And personally I don't trust my own ability to come up with 'organic' numbers that make sense. I think too much in relation to other pokemon, which would lead to "Oh I don't want this one to be stronger than this one so I guess this usually really good pokemon is getting nerf'd."
Body size and parts and all are very much so used in DF. That's one of those details we need to flesh out by hand of course.
Not going to quote you because it was a long post but, Roboson, I totally agree with you. I much prefer the first option.
Hold on, I can't install Python on this computer and I'm about to go out the door but, the math is essentially base stat / 255 (the max possible base stat), multiplied by each number in a 'maximum' range. For example this range could be 4400:4500:4600:4700:4800:4900:5000, personally I wouldnt go with that as there wouldn't be much variation at all but it works for this example.
So the stat equivalents to DF, I think, could be: Strength/Attack , Agility/Speed, Toughness/Defense , Endurance/HP , Recuperation/(Sp. A + Sp. D / 2) , Disease Resist/(Sp. A + Sp. D / 2). Note: the (Sp. A + Sp. D / 2) could be possibly replaced by 'special' in first gen. pokemon. Normally it's the same thing. I do wish we could give Sp. Attack it's own real usage honestly.
So really quickly lets just do that for Bulbasaur's Strength range. Base strength = 45. 45/255 = (0.1764705882352941).
4400*(0.1764705882352941):4500*(0.1764705882352941):4600*(0.1764705882352941):4700*(0.1764705882352941):4800*(0.1764705882352941):4900*(0.1764705882352941):5000*(0.1764705882352941)
That equals: 776:794:811:829:847:864:882. That takes forever to do in a calculator so, I wouldn't recommend doing it by hand. Also if we decide to go with this method we're going to need to go through and do it for all of them. And lastly, this is just for the phys att ranges. We also need gaits and such.
Post by: Managrimm on April 22, 2016, 11:43:29 am
They had an interaction they'd randomly activate while wandering around. It queued a transformation to happen after a certain number of turns and then another transformation to happen exactly 1 turn later. So the first transformation would happen, but the second wouldn't until the first wore off. It was queued up after the current transformation due to how transformations work. So when the first transformation wore off, the second and permanent one would take effect. That's why you can't use a Moon Stone evolve to a Nidorino that evolved from a Nidoran. The Nidoking transformation will just get queued up after the Nidorino one, which is presumably permanent, so the Nidorino transformation will prevent the Nidoking transformation from happening.
Just something to consider as you move forward.
Post by: Roboson on April 23, 2016, 11:23:28 pm
Gonna throw this out here for you guys: unless DF has changed since I was modding my Pokemon, you can't have a stone evolve a Pokemon that's already evolved once - at least not through typical transformations. A creature that's transformed is immune to further transformations. That's why all my Pokemon worked on a timer. This is how they worked.
They had an interaction they'd randomly activate while wandering around. It queued a transformation to happen after a certain number of turns and then another transformation to happen exactly 1 turn later. So the first transformation would happen, but the second wouldn't until the first wore off. It was queued up after the current transformation due to how transformations work. So when the first transformation wore off, the second and permanent one would take effect. That's why you can't use a Moon Stone evolve to a Nidorino that evolved from a Nidoran. The Nidoking transformation will just get queued up after the Nidorino one, which is presumably permanent, so the Nidorino transformation will prevent the Nidoking transformation from happening.
Just something to consider as you move forward.
That is true. The evolution stone thing wouldn't work on an already transformed pokemon. So in the case of the nidoran line it wouldn;t work. But it would work on things like eve and whatnot.
Post by: AceSV on April 24, 2016, 09:19:18 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 24, 2016, 09:56:49 am
But I suppose this isn't what this mod is going for.. Is it?
Post by: Managrimm on April 24, 2016, 10:54:45 am
Would that mean you can't change any pokemon into a stage 2 evolution?
Not at all. You just need the first transformation to wear off at the exact same frame that the second transformation - the permanent one - takes effect. I've had functioning evolving Pokemon in the past.
Post by: pikachu17 on April 26, 2016, 09:38:49 am
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2016, 07:34:02 pm
Post by: Rumrusher on April 29, 2016, 08:35:41 am
yeah or you just make it genetic evolution where the child gets to evolve into the next pokevo chain while their parent stays in their second evolved state.Would that mean you can't change any pokemon into a stage 2 evolution?
Not at all. You just need the first transformation to wear off at the exact same frame that the second transformation - the permanent one - takes effect. I've had functioning evolving Pokemon in the past.
so pichu can turn into a pikachu but can't evolve into a raichu until pikachu gives birth to another pikachu who would be able to evolve into a raichu. but that kinda falls under pokemon breeding than training.
Post by: pikachu17 on April 29, 2016, 01:08:52 pm
Post by: darkflagrance on April 30, 2016, 05:29:43 pm
Could DFhack make it so when, for example, a raichu has a baby, the baby will automatically be a pichu?
You could also make it so that the baby form is called a Pichu (or other base/baby form) and the adult form is the middle evolution, if applicable. Then only one transformation would be required to become an adult/final form permanently.
Post by: Nahere on April 30, 2016, 07:50:06 pm
Post by: pikachu17 on May 03, 2016, 09:41:54 am
DFHack's trueTransform allows for multiple transformations over the life of a creature, if you're willing to use it.it was inevitable. well, seems like this mod is going to need dfhack
P.S. how do you plan to deal with slowpoke evolving into slowbro using a shelder?
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2016, 11:29:54 am
DFHack's trueTransform allows for multiple transformations over the life of a creature, if you're willing to use it.it was inevitable. well, seems like this mod is going to need dfhack
P.S. how do you plan to deal with slowpoke evolving into slowbro using a shelder?
Its only necessary if we want to implement evolution within the fortress mode. We could just make each pokemon separate castes with varying population ratios that wander into the fortress mode preevolved. OR we could make first evolution transformations cyclic. In that I mean that they have an end point, which only lasts for one or two ticks, and then restart. This would allow for a different transformation to take over. However, it would have the side effect of healing all injuries and scars on the transforming pokemon periodically.
Post by: pikachu17 on July 21, 2016, 11:12:14 am
Post by: Thuellai on July 21, 2016, 11:29:16 am
If we do go for a samurai-esque human civ, it would be fairly easy to just make a few of them modeled after the themes of the Nobunagamon kingdoms - A Dragon kingdom, a Fire kingdom, and so on - with suitable biomes and such to encourage them to have appropriate Pokemon.
Post by: pikachu17 on July 21, 2016, 11:36:16 am
If we do go for a samurai-esque human civ, it would be fairly easy to just make a few of them modeled after the themes of the Nobunagamon kingdoms - A Dragon kingdom, a Fire kingdom, and so on - with suitable biomes and such to encourage them to have appropriate Pokemon.Give them the elf tag that allows them to tame all nearby creatures, and then they will have all the creatures in their biome(unfortunately, they'll also control all creatures in nearby biomes).
should all legendary and mythical pokemon be megabeasts? and which ones should have POWER? maybe all pokemon should have spheres so they get named by their abilities(charmanders named flamy flamerson of the faming flames).
Post by: Thuellai on July 21, 2016, 11:42:46 am
One interesting question is how technological or otherwise advanced Pokemon will appear - Mewtwo's not too hard to justify despite his origins as a genetically engineered creature, but what the heck does a medieval Porygon look like? Or Rotom! Does Rotom have a millstone form, or a floodgate form?
Post by: pikachu17 on July 21, 2016, 11:58:31 am
Legendaries should definitely be megabeasts, and unique or exceptionally powerful normal Pokemon might be semi-megas. Using spheres to encourage specific naming patterns is a good idea. Most Legendaries should probably be able to be worshipped, especially the ones based on mythological beasts.Rotom is still a bolt of electricity in his basic form. while the other forms were probably MEANT to be stupid, neither of them use electricity. Rotom could still exist, though(unless I'm wrong and it was created by a scientist).
One interesting question is how technological or otherwise advanced Pokemon will appear - Mewtwo's not too hard to justify despite his origins as a genetically engineered creature, but what the heck does a medieval Porygon look like? Or Rotom! Does Rotom have a millstone form, or a floodgate form?
porygon doesn't exist anymore, because he hasn't been invented yet.
Some poison pokemon created from trash shouldn't exist, either. grimer is similar to that vanilla swamp creature, so it might exist.
hey, what pokemon should have OPPOSED_TO_LIFE?
Post by: Thuellai on July 21, 2016, 05:12:21 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 21, 2016, 08:36:58 pm
Post by: scourge728 on July 22, 2016, 10:34:17 am
Post by: pikachu17 on July 26, 2016, 09:56:30 am
also would fossil pokemon be in the mod?IF the mod uses DFHACK then you could have a masterwork-style fossil where you could turn fossils into pokemon. I think that Hydreigon should have crazed. what creatures would have AT_PEACE_WITH_WILDLIFE?
Post by: scourge728 on July 26, 2016, 11:01:16 am
Post by: pikachu17 on July 26, 2016, 11:05:21 am
Post by: Thuellai on July 26, 2016, 01:59:57 pm
If I do decide to knuckle down and actually start putting this together, I'd definitely go for the Pokenobunaga vibe for the human civilizations. The only thing is, I'm fairly certain that at some point in this process, I'm going to have to learn DFhack to add some of the features I'd want later on (Apricorn Balls, some of the more complex Pokemon tricks, proper Evolution handling, although I remember the Mario mod has a creature with a transformation mechanic dependent on the unit not having any COMBAT_HARDNESS - evolution could work in reverse, using COMBAT_HARDNESS to measure how much experience a Pokemon has in combat and letting them evolve when it gets high enough for standard, evolves-by-level Pokes)
Post by: Z49000 on August 07, 2016, 09:17:14 pm
Do you also plan to add shinies: that could be possible- like for example
a Lucario's fur color:
[TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLUE:4096:YELLOW:1]
Post by: scourge728 on August 07, 2016, 09:29:37 pm
Post by: Z49000 on August 07, 2016, 09:36:09 pm
well I mean lightning could basically be renamed fire and I remember hearing about someone working on ice breath attack, the real problem is gonna be things like Hurricane, Tri attack and hyper beam
Noted. Any answer to the shiny question though?
Oh and also how would weaknesses and resistances work?
Post by: Thuellai on August 08, 2016, 04:53:43 am
Post by: Z49000 on August 08, 2016, 01:47:00 pm
Creature classes and material vulnerabilities. Give each creature CREATURE_CLASS:its typing and most moves will be material emissions anyways, so you can set it up so that it gives creatures of CREATURE_CLASS:weak type a material vulnerability (thus increasing the momentum of the attack against that type). The same way a werebeast is weak to a random metal, but pre-determined.Ah, that works. Still no answer to my shiny question though.
Post by: pikachu17 on August 09, 2016, 09:54:12 am
well I mean lightning could basically be renamed fire and I remember hearing about someone working on ice breath attack, the real problem is gonna be things like Hurricane, Tri attack and hyper beamfor Hurricane a TRAILING_DUST_FLOW, or a UNDIRECTED_DUST material emission of "air" might work.
for Tri-attack, I believe you can have one material emission shoot out lightning(which can paralyze), fire(super-hot), and ice(super cold, maybe having some other syndromes simulating freezing)
for hyper beam, maybe you can make a material emission interaction that also causes the user to become tired. not sure if you can have an attack have one enemy target and target itself, though.
Ah, that works. Still no answer to my shiny question though.Personally, I think maybe you could have the shiny castes have [PET_EXOTIC] and have a high PET_VALUE so it would be worth it trying to catch it after having it's non-shiny forms.
It should have a low POP_RATIO.
Post by: Managrimm on August 09, 2016, 11:55:55 am
Post by: scourge728 on August 09, 2016, 01:30:43 pm
Post by: Z49000 on August 09, 2016, 03:49:32 pm
Post by: pikachu17 on December 07, 2016, 02:53:19 pm
Do you think that samurai weapons will be good for the civs?
And is there any necromancer-like creature in pokemon?
Post by: Ultimuh on December 08, 2016, 06:36:39 am
And is there any necromancer-like creature in pokemon?Would Darkrai count?
Maybe not, due to it being a legendary..
edit:
There's always Gengar..
Or Marowak.. Because of bones and skulls.
Then again, Houndoom also has sort of bone-y protrusions.. But it would most likely fit into the Demon category.
Post by: pikachu17 on December 09, 2016, 03:07:08 pm
Would Darkrai count?Gengar itself doesn't do this, but now that I think about it, there's probably a ghost type that do that. How about yamask turning humans into more yamasks?
Maybe not, due to it being a legendary..
There's always Gengar..
Or Marowak.. Because of bones and skulls.Neither of those seem to raise zombies or additional pokemon, although I guess marowak itself does seem kind of zombie-y so maybe someone else can make them out of similarly shaped non-plant non-inorganic pokemon.
Then again, Houndoom also has sort of bone-y protrusions.. But it would most likely fit into the Demon category.
Houndoom can't raise anything. About houndoom, I thought that because of the black/white description, maybe houndoom could breathe a hot material that causes the hit creatures to get in same way cave spiders numb forever.