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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors | Renascence | Town Win
Post by: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

Beginner's Mafia XLIV

The Court of Colors

"Better the rainbow, than an endless sea of grey. Nimium ne crede colori; Paulo maiora canamus."

   'Tis a wonderful morning in the cities of the Midlands. All throughout the country, celebrations are being held in the passing of the twin-suns as the reflecting colors in the skies turn from mellow hues of yellow, orange and pink to the auburn shades of the coming night. All throughout the country, villagers and freemen celebrate the passing of the day, emphasized by a grand festival in the Bastion and its surrounding village, where the Court of Colors is held once more. In the town square, all people of different race, rank, life and blood gather to celebrate the one thing that brings them together. Fellowship, and Fun.

   There may be strife in the land: plots of assassination of the King, a coming war on several fronts and the growing creep of the cold of winter, but there is always a time for everything. Today, and in the days proceeding, the festival of the Shadowed Light will occur, spearheaded by the Nobility in reverence to tradition and lore.

   And you are one of the key players in the act.

---

The story (flavor) archive:
Chapter I: 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4870858#msg4870858), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4874291#msg4874291), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4892433#msg4892433), 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4896494#msg4896494), 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4896760#msg4896760)
[Chapter II: 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4901573#msg4901573), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4904715#msg4904715), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4914677#msg4914677), 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4921480#msg4921480), 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4923205#msg4923205), 6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4923291#msg4923291), 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4923829#msg4923829), 8 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4926573#msg4926573)
Chapter III: 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4929681#msg4929681), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4943773#msg4943773), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4949925#msg4949925), 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4955215#msg4955215), 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4956247#msg4956247), 6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4957446#msg4957446), 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4962450#msg4962450), 8 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4965350#msg4965350), 9 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4965616#msg4965616)
Chapter IV: 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4969127#msg4969127), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4974963#msg4974963), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4982085#msg4982085)
Chapter V:]

Player List [7/7]:

• Elephant Parade > Superblackcat -- Vanilla Townie; Lynched D3
• mastahcheese -- Vanilla Townie; Vanquished N2
• Sinlessmoon -- Vanilla Townie; Vanquished N4
• Jembot > Imp -- Mafia Rolecop; Lynched N5
• Persus13 -- Town Jailkeeper; Vanquished N3
• Pufferfish > 4maskwolf -- Town Cop; Lynched D2
• MyOwnWorstEnemy

ICs [2/2]:

• Nerjin
• makeinu -- IC Apprentice -- Vanilla Mafioso; Lynched D1

Scum IC [1/1]:

• Deathsword

---

---

Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XLIV. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

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Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Vanilla Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

This is still an experimental setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Spoiler: All Possible Role PMs pertinent to the game (click to show/hide)

Quote from: 'Vanilla' Mafia

The Court has set the stage, and you play the role of the Shade. Taking the role of a being of shadow, you resemble the aspect of knowledge, information and intellect deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Shade is always under that of another color, giving variety to the different aspects of the visible spectrum, and a direct relative to the caste of Light, though always on a darker level than your origin.

You are of the Mafia Faction! You have access to the shared Nightkill of your faction. You may scheme and discuss privately with your allies [In a secret topic held on Quicktopic.com which will be visible to only you and your ally.]

Wincondition: You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!

Quote from: 'Role-Cop' Mafia

The Court has set the stage, and you play the role of the Tone. Taking the role of a being of music and aural pleasure, you resemble the aspect of rhythm, connectivity and fluidity deep within the weave of society. The role of the complex Tone is always related to that of another color, giving the symbol of hardness or softness to the different aspects of the visible spectrum, and a direct relative to the caste of Purity, though always on a varying level than your origin.


You are of the Mafia Faction! You have access to the shared Nightkill of your faction and have the power to Inspect another member in play to get their Role-name. You may scheme and discuss privately with your allies [In a secret topic held on Quicktopic.com which will be visible to only you and your ally.]

Wincondition: You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!

Quote from: 'Vanilla' Town

The Court has set the stage, and you play one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of a being of Color, you resemble the aspect of vibrance, variance and symbolism deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Color is always related to the meaning given to the environment, giving an interpretation to the different aspects of the tangible world. Your role is simple, utilizing only the mind in your play, but nevertheless important.

You are of the Town Faction.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

Quote from: 'Cop' Town

The Court has set the stage, and you play the one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of the Aspect, you resemble the notion of thought, balance, rationality, morality and holism deep within the weave of society. The role of the omnipresent eye is subjective, having different meanings to different cultures, but always interpreted as a character of scrutiny, judgement and wisdom. Your role takes the importance of those around you and interprets their value, both to the world and to the self.

You are of the Town Faction and have the power to Inspect another member in play to get their Alignment.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

Quote from: 'Jailkeeper' Town

The Court has set the stage, and you play the role of Purity. Taking the role of the Luminescent, you resemble the notion of discovery, insight, stability, curiosity, value and preservation deep within the weave of society. The role of the dual entity is subjective, having different meanings to different cultures, but always interpreted as a character of sanity (sound judgement), coherence, integrity and solidarity. Your role interprets those around you without bias, and forms the bonds between sentience and non-sentience, giving sight to where sight is needed.

You are of the Town Faction and have the power to Guard another member in play to prevent them from acting, and being acted upon.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

---

Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  • Tiruin
  • Vote Tiruin
  • Tir
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear or comprehensible enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
  • If the day ends with two or more people having the same number of votes, there will be no lynch (except in special circumstances regarding votes and abilities tied to votes--none of which exist in a BM)
  • It is also possible to vote for a no lynch, which in turn skips the Lynch-phase after every day and proceeds straight to the Night phase. This is not recommended in Beginner's Mafia and suggested to only be used in certain special cases.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Neither of these include weekends. In the possibility of extensions in play, a day will last at most, a week's time from day start.
• Extensions/Shortens - There are a total of Two extensions per game-day, with a mandatory 24-hour extension added whenever the Moderator announced a replacee coming into play (and in regular games, when day actions such as day-kills go off). A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted with one exception. If an extension goes through and players do not make use of it there will be no more extensions on that day. If you request an extension USE IT!
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
  • Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring the opposite (1 shorten cancels 1 extend request and vice versa), or stating directly: opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.
  • If the game is in a LYLO [Lynch or Lose] or MYLO [Mislynch or Lose] situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.  Votes to end the day may, at the voter's option, be contingent on the lynching of the player being voted on, and will be considered null should a different player gain the majority vote.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
  • Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
• Miscellaneous -  Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.  If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.

---

Resources and Guides

Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"
Dak: Meh.  Why?
Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"
Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."
Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"
Dak: "He looked scummy.."
Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"
Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."
Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"

Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.
If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:

Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true [/list]

Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide)

Alignment - Who you share a victory condition with. Town-aligned, Scum-aligned, or third party alignments.

Bandwagon - Multiple votes on a single person. Can be justified, or unjustified. Unjustified bandwagons are scummy. Joining bandwagons blindly or without reason is also scummy.

BM - Beginner's Mafia (Or, Bastard Mod, a Mafia game with a purposefully unreliable moderator, or misleading information)

Bus - (noun: the bus ; verb: bussing, throwing him/her under the bus) When a mafia member attacks another one in order to make themselves look like a loyal townie when his or her scumpartner gets lynched.

Cult - A group of players that share a win condition, know each other, and can communicate freely. They are generally a second type of scum, although rarely they can be town-aligned. Instead of a kill, they can recruit players into the cult. There is generally a cult leader, who is in charge of recruiting.

FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.

FTD - Failure to Deliver, also known as Toaster's #1 Scumtell. The act of promising to post more information at a later time, and then failing to do so. A very difficult action to justify as town, because it means you are either lazy or lying, it is therefore seen as a pretty solid scumtell.

IC - Inexperienced Challenged, players who are too experienced to justify playing in a Beginner's Mafia, and act as mentors/guides for the Town or the Scum.

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

LYLO - Lynch or Lose, a situation where Town only outnumbers Scum by a single person (e.g. 3 town vs. 2 scum). During LYLO, Town MUST lynch Scum or instantly lose.

Masons - A group of town-aligned players who know each other to be town-aligned. They can communicate with each other freely.

MYLO - Mislynch and Lose, a situation where Town outnumbers Scum by two people (4 town vs. 2 scum). During MYLO, if Town lynches Town, Scum will win after night-killing town, making it 2 town vs. 2 scum, which is an instant scum win.

NL - No Lynch, to choose to end the day without lynching anyone and see if any information is revealed in the night.

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

PFP - Posting From Phone (or Profession), throwing up a short post to prove you aren't lurking, when you are too busy at the time to make a more complete post.

PL - Policy Lynch, lynching someone for reasons other than scumminess. Variants are Lynch All Lurkers, Lynch All Liars, etc. Also see: Org.

PPE - Pre-Post Edit, typically done when you go to either Preview or Post and notice that someone else has posted before you. PPE is shorthand for acknowledging the "Warning - You may wish to review your post" message.

RIA - Refuge in Audacity, acting really crazy or really scummy to make people think that you couldn't possibly be scum because of how crazy you are. This never works. Neither does sarcasm in general, really. If you want to be sarcastic, make it painfully obvious you are being sarcastic, with <sarcasm>fake sarcasm tags</sarcasm>. Even still, it's not a good idea, because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS

Role - Also called Power Role, any special powers you have. Cops, doctors, roleblockers, and godfathers are examples of classic roles. Some roles are alignment-specific, some aren't, and some can be for any alignment.

Rolefishing - Any question or attempt to learn information about someone's role. Typically something done at the beginning of the game. Typically a scum move, because it is in scum's advantage to find and lynch powerful roles. Can be acceptable later in the game, or in special circumstances where it is beneficial for town to learn someone's role. The reason it is scummy is because the really powerful town roles want to stay hidden so they don't get lynched by scum, and bringing attention to them by rolefishing risks their secrecy.

RVS - Random Voting Stage, the early-early game, shortly after the game begins, where people randomly vote each other and ask each other different questions, trying to find any good reason to suspect someone.

Scum - Mafia, or someone who isn't aligned with the Town. The Informed Minority.

SK - Serial Killer, a third party role with a nightkill, and who is hostile to everyone.

Survivor - a third party role whose win condition requires that they be alive at the end of the game. Normal players can die and still win as long as their team as a whole wins, but a survivor must actually be alive at the end.

Third Party - an alignment that is independent of scum and town. Has a unique victory condition, and is typically a lone wolf type character.

Town - The anti-Scum. The uninformed majority.

Vanilla - Someone who doesn't have a power role. "Vanilla Town", "Vanilla Scum", etc.

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

WoT - Wall of Text; a really really long post. Sometimes unavoidable, but generally you should try to keep them to a minimum. Sometimes scum use them to seem more active then they are.

Massclaim - When everyone starts roleclaiming, or saying they are a power role.

Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)

(Thanks to IronyOwl for making the orig. version!)

Scumtells are things that someone does or says that imply that they're scum. Usually the reasoning is that it's bad or not productive for townies to do it, so it can be hard to distinguish signs of being scum from signs of being a noob. This is one of the reasons scum almost always win beginner's mafia games.

Note that scumtells are very very subjective; there's no simple way to distinguish a scumtell from a noobtell from being justified and/or lazy. Whether a justified, non-scummy version of a scumtell should still be called by its normal name varies from person to person. (Someone might describe their voting of someone who voted them as "not an OMGUS," other would say it's "a justified OMGUS" for instance)

In any case, common scumtells include:

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum.

OMGUSing: Short for Oh My God You Suck, by the way. Voting or otherwise applying pressure to whoever's voting you. It implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

Defending/Chainsawing: Defending just means what it sounds like: saying things to defend another player's actions or words. Chainsawing or chainsaw defending means attacking someone who's attacking another player in an attempt to get them to stop. The idea in both instances is that townies don't know if their fellow players are innocent or not, and hence have no real reason to defend them from legitimate persecution. Scum, on the other hand, know they're on a team and so are prone to not wanting their buddies found out or pressured.

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

Passiveness: This is when a person refuses, simply hasn't or seems reluctant to take a stance, such as lynches. Scum will be concerned about their image, and thus don't want to be seen supporting a town lynch or an attack on a town.

Backtracking: When a person changes their stance on a subject after stating it, such as supporting a lynch and after doing so claiming that they didn't do it. This is very suspicious, and is often a sign of scum wanting to retreat their position so as to be able to save their face.

Lying: Well this should be obvious, right? It happens when someone fakeclaims (says they're a cop/doc, but is just town for example), fabricates evidence and stuff like that.

Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning.

Quote from: Argembarger

Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Blackmailing the town, like "You can lynch me, but you'll be sorry when you see I was town all along!"
Voting yourself for any reason.

---

Frequently Asked Questions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Oh my god this game seems fun. But wait, what are the rules?
  This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0) is a good Mafia tutorial, brought to you by the wise JoshuaFH. Heed his words. It isn't included here because it's rather too long for that.
• People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?
  The first and most important order of business is not to give up.
  One, two votes isn't much. Even if someone's got a bandwagon on you and people are writing walls of accusations, do not lose hope. You can still turn this around, no matter how bleak it appears. Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.
  The other players have nothing against you: it's just how the game goes. Even if you foul it up and people yell at you for it, once the game is over we're all friends.
  There are still people who give up, saying things like "You'll all be sorry when you find out I'm just town afterwards!" and "I'm not even going to try, there no way to stop this". Don't be that guy. Not only is it rather selfish, it will simply deepen your grave. You have to get out of it with real, meat-laden arguments, and these empty threats and remarks will only make you appear more scummy.
• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  You can often tell with the help of the List of Common Scumtells, provided below, but don't make the mistake of overusing it. Not every accusal against you is an OMGUS, and not all attempts at logic are WIFOM.  If in doubt, always remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. Don't take anything for granted.
• What's all this wine stuff that players keep talking about? Does Mafia cause alcoholism?
  They are likely referring to the concept of WIFOM. It's a name for the kind of circular reasoning that you'd find when scrutinising scum motives, and is described in the CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia below. It goes like this:
  
  A: Why didn't our most active player get killed? It would be the scum's goal to kill the most active players to remove accusal, wouldn't it? The only conclusion is that [active player] is scum!
  
  B: Or is it? What if the scum wants to keep the most active player to draw suspicion on him? The scum could then head the attack on this player, thus pushing themselves into a position of trust amongst the town! I've got my eye on you, A!
  
  A: No, that isn't right! Clearly, they would stay in the background, and the people who go for the bait like me would be attacked by the scum, thus making themselves appear insightful! B, how dare you do this to me!
  
  B: Or perhaps the scum would be someone voting for a person that isn't the subject of a bandwagon, thus appearing both inconspicuous and independent! [lurker], you are scum!
  
  As you can see here, both A and B are making wild speculations on the motives of the scum. Their votes and eyes are all over the place, and nothing is really getting done. It distracts from real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that, not speculating on how people would or would not play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Elephant Parade on November 27, 2013, 10:50:42 pm

IN.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on November 27, 2013, 11:04:33 pm

May I have an IC spot?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: makeinu on November 27, 2013, 11:34:26 pm

In

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Sinlessmoon on November 27, 2013, 11:37:51 pm

IN

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Jim Groovester on November 28, 2013, 01:04:26 am

Watching.

Quote from: Imp on November 27, 2013, 11:04:33 pm

May I have an IC spot?

I think you're too green to be an IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on November 28, 2013, 01:35:04 am

We made some editions from the BM discussion--a thread on this board--and explained the extend system well and good. First testing run here but the outlook is great.

Don't be afraid to shoot anyone questions here! :P


^{Also this time I prooooomise that the flavor for night/night messages won't take forever unlike last time. :S
Really.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: zombie urist on November 28, 2013, 01:48:22 am

Your OP is broken.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on November 28, 2013, 01:54:34 am

Quote from: zombie urist on November 28, 2013, 01:48:22 am

Your OP is broken.

^{Y u so mean ZU}
I fixed it before seeing this post xD
^{Ahaha no I'm joking. You're awesome :I}

Edit: I've found that accident happens when your internet connection is...bad. Slow net = long time to load all the text (simple, simple text >_> )

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Scelly9 on November 28, 2013, 02:00:08 am

PTW

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on November 28, 2013, 05:15:56 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on November 28, 2013, 01:04:26 am

Watching.

Quote from: Imp on November 27, 2013, 11:04:33 pm

May I have an IC spot?

I think you're too green to be an IC.

Sure thing.  Sounds like I'm still quite eligible to be a player then?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on November 28, 2013, 05:22:27 am

*squee*

Players people, players! :))

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Persus13 on November 28, 2013, 09:09:24 am

IN

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Teneb on November 28, 2013, 11:09:13 am

Scum IC in. I am clearly more suited for this task than being a regular IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 01, 2013, 09:38:07 am

Merry Christmas everyone :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 01, 2013, 02:04:50 pm

And to you!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Gentlefish on December 02, 2013, 01:14:02 am

Ooh, in! I'm trying for the sprint too, let's see how well they juggle!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 02, 2013, 01:21:51 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 02, 2013, 01:14:02 am

Ooh, in! I'm trying for the sprint too, let's see how well they juggle!

*grins*  Awesome!  I swear to you it is possible to play more than one Mafia game at once (assuming your schedule allows).  I was doing 3 at once near the end of the last BM.  I went -insane-.  I felt like I couldn't keep up with any of them.  Then everything clicked, and I could.  (or else I did go insane, and didn't keep up with any of them, and still don't realize  :P)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Gentlefish on December 02, 2013, 01:23:38 am

This is Bay12. Insanity is guaranteed. Glad to play you again, Imp, and with a fresh role. Good luck, and good WinCon!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 01:23:38 am

Quote from: Imp on December 02, 2013, 01:21:51 am

I was doing 3 at once near the end of the last BM.  I went -insane-.  I felt like I couldn't keep up with any of them.  Then everything clicked, and I could.  (or else I did go insane, and didn't keep up with any of them, and still don't realize  :P)

*cheers*
Yep! Sanity (sound judgement) is directly proportional to how your mindset allows! Clickety click click! :P

Now I only need to worry about three more: a player, and two ICs.

I'm probably nitpicking here but do you (everyone) want your roles to be hand-tailored to your personal needs or are you happy with whatever the roles are in the OP?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 02, 2013, 01:30:46 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 01:23:38 am

Quote from: Imp on December 02, 2013, 01:21:51 am

I was doing 3 at once near the end of the last BM.  I went -insane-.  I felt like I couldn't keep up with any of them.  Then everything clicked, and I could.  (or else I did go insane, and didn't keep up with any of them, and still don't realize  :P)

*cheers*
Yep! Sanity (sound judgement) is directly proportional to how your mindset allows! Clickety click click! :P

Now I only need to worry about three more: a player, and two ICs.

I'm probably nitpicking here but do you (everyone) want your roles to be hand-tailored to your personal needs or are you happy with whatever the roles are in the OP?

I'm fine with whatever. I haven't played at all yet (except in real life) so I dunno what I would be good as.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 02, 2013, 01:36:44 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 01:23:38 am

I'm probably nitpicking here but do you (everyone) want your roles to be hand-tailored to your personal needs or are you happy with whatever the roles are in the OP?

Huh?  What are you offering us?  What do you mean by 'hand-tailored' robes ... err, roles?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Gentlefish on December 02, 2013, 01:52:53 am

Vague roles are always nice. Keeps the game nice and level and lets us figure out how to get dones what needs to be done for our WinCon.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: mastahcheese on December 02, 2013, 01:56:58 am

I'll be watching this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 02, 2013, 02:06:01 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 02, 2013, 01:56:58 am

I'll be watching this.

You should join! Assuming you're a beginner. We still don't have enough players.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: mastahcheese on December 02, 2013, 02:07:29 am

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 02, 2013, 02:06:01 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 02, 2013, 01:56:58 am

I'll be watching this.

You should join! Assuming you're a beginner. We still don't have enough players.

I've considered joining about 3 of these games before, but my scheduling just doesn't work well with it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 02, 2013, 02:48:30 am

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 02, 2013, 02:06:01 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 02, 2013, 01:56:58 am

I'll be watching this.

You should join! Assuming you're a beginner. We still don't have enough players.

Heh, there's still the 2 IC spots to fill too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 05:06:41 am

Quote from: Imp on December 02, 2013, 01:36:44 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 01:23:38 am

I'm probably nitpicking here but do you (everyone) want your roles to be hand-tailored to your personal needs or are you happy with whatever the roles are in the OP?

Huh?  What are you offering us?  What do you mean by 'hand-tailored' robes ... err, roles?

I guess I'm being silly x3
I meant by the flavor in each role. But that's already probably too vague given that I'm pulling everything from a world I made.

ANYWAY. I believe we'll be starting...after Christmas, if this is the state of the field.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Silthuri on December 05, 2013, 12:49:41 pm

In

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Nerjin on December 05, 2013, 01:39:49 pm

Hm... IC in for personal reasons. As in I want to IC. But don't tell anyone.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 06, 2013, 12:38:01 am

One more playing IC and we're ready to party.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Superblackcat on December 08, 2013, 03:52:46 am

In Replacement

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 08, 2013, 03:57:13 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 08, 2013, 03:52:46 am

In Replacement

Yayay!  Cat should play more Mafia :D

Offering to trade spots with Cat if Cat and Tiruin would both like that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 08, 2013, 04:00:57 am

I like you both equally. :I

...

Oops, parser broke. Uhm, yes. I'd like that.
Now to wait for that one IC..Unless Deathsword would like to trade places with anyone :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Superblackcat on December 08, 2013, 04:13:18 am

Sure... But I'm currently Sprinting, and you aren't... So unless you are playing a game atm, I'm not going to take it ;).

(I think you are playing paranormal though right?)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 08, 2013, 05:05:27 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 08, 2013, 04:13:18 am

Sure... But I'm currently Sprinting, and you aren't... So unless you are playing a game atm, I'm not going to take it ;).

(I think you are playing paranormal though right?)

I'm in para and replacement for your sprint if needed.  Sprint's pretty fast paced, 'games will never take more than a week' it's been said.  This game might not start for a bit, it's been waiting for a second IC for a while.  We'll see how fast someone joins.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 08, 2013, 07:06:39 am

I'm in Para and I've been sacrificing RL time for it and arghgh I'm a bad person. When stuck dedicating partial time, should allot full time. >_<

...And yeah, the Sprint, I feel is [redacted until post-game].

...
C'mon, IC!
Addendum: If in case the game starts at ~New Year or so, do I have the word of all those who just enlisted in the player/IC slots as 'able and ready'?
Because I have either Imp or SBC to take your place--both trustworthy and active peoples. :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2013, 11:01:05 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 08, 2013, 04:00:57 am

Now to wait for that one IC..Unless Deathsword would like to trade places with anyone :P

Then you'd be missing a scum IC. (I also like being scum IC)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Gentlefish on December 08, 2013, 04:09:05 pm

I'm in, guaranteed. Might be active more in bursts at first, milady's still back from Canada at that time, but I still desire to play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Nerjin on December 08, 2013, 05:48:58 pm

Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: No
Princess: But thou must!
Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: No
Princess: But thou must!
Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: No
Princess: But thou must!
Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: No
Princess: But thou must!
Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: No
Princess: But thou must!
Princess: Will you participate in this game Nerjin?
>Yes
>No
Nerjin: Yes
Princess: Excellent, Nerjin will be available for this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Silthuri on December 08, 2013, 06:16:47 pm

...well then. That was a thing if ever there was one. Anyway, I'm definitely in. I think this will be a fun learning experience.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Nerjin on December 08, 2013, 06:28:58 pm

It's a reference to a game wherein a princess asks if you love her. The game will not continue until you say yes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Superblackcat on December 08, 2013, 11:32:28 pm

I think we only need another IC...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 12:23:46 am

That we do, dear lucky cat.

Black cats are only regarded as unlucky in western cultures so far as I've heard.
...
*Tiruin is more on Eastern culture. :3
Japan regards black cats are good luck.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: mastahcheese on December 09, 2013, 01:06:07 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 12:23:46 am

That we do, dear lucky cat.

Black cats are only regarded as unlucky in western cultures so far as I've heard.
...
*Tiruin is more on Eastern culture. :3
Japan regards black cats are good luck.

It was a superstition made by sexist "witch hunters" who tried to claim that witches owned black cats so they could use it as an excuse to burn women.
Prior to that, they were considered good luck, particularly for sailors' wives and for the wives of Russian soldiers.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 01:19:30 am

AHAH, TAKE THAT YOU HERETICS.

*ahem*
..I didn't like the witch hunts they had then. Ignorance was abundant.

ANYWAY, back to waiting. Unless anyone would like to discuss those kinds of terms and lore here. I'm totally ok with that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Superblackcat on December 09, 2013, 01:19:55 am

Lets just make a random IC, and just go!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 09, 2013, 01:21:41 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 09, 2013, 01:19:55 am

Lets just make a random IC, and just go!

That would sort of ruin the point.

Personally, I would suggest we leave the IC spot open and start the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Nerjin on December 09, 2013, 01:25:09 am

... So 1 IC, 1 Scum IC, and six or so new players bumping around? I think that'd be a bad idea considering that 2 ICs gives you 2 views at how things work. Just saying.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Gentlefish on December 09, 2013, 02:01:08 am

If 1.25 BM's is enough to give me IC, I could help with IC and open up a beginner's spot. But I don't think a sprint and a sub are necessarily Inexperience-challenging.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 06:54:36 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 01:19:30 am

..I didn't like the witch hunts they had then. Ignorance was abundant.

as opposed to the witch hunts they have now because they're are absolutely brilliant?

Making Imp an IC may be necessary.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors
Post by: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:59:54 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 06:54:36 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 01:19:30 am

..I didn't like the witch hunts they had then. Ignorance was abundant.

as opposed to the witch hunts they have now because they're are absolutely brilliant?

Making Imp an IC may be necessary.

Mmm.  An extremely experienced IC has said I'm not ready.  The game will start, just not immediately.  A qualified IC will step forward.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 10, 2013, 04:03:31 am

It's ultimately the moderator's discretion who she decides to have as an IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 10, 2013, 04:13:43 am

It is not actually I would think. Don't be in too much of a rush. Though I know for a fact that someone around here's pretty eager to start. I'm not gonna point fingers or anything but he loves Revolvers and is often confused for Nenjin. Just be patient and everything will come together.

---

Edit: To be specific I was referring to a Non-Jim post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 10, 2013, 04:18:01 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 10, 2013, 04:03:31 am

It's ultimately the moderator's discretion who she decides to have as an IC.

I did not know this.
I'm confident in Imp, and I believe that the best way to 'test' this is to give her that chance.

If she is willing--and when I get her response, the PMs will be sent.

We may start before the New Year given that prospect.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 10, 2013, 04:13:43 am

It is not actually I would think. Don't be in too much of a rush. Though I know for a fact that someone around here's pretty eager to start. I'm not gonna point fingers or anything but he loves Revolvers and is often confused for Nenjin. Just be patient and everything will come together.

...*reads name*
Ok you're Nerjin.
..And Nerjin's the only guy I think who loves Revolvers. :P

On another unrelated note: I viewed Toaster's Limerick Mafia and..the concept of 1 extend per person = 1 extra day seems useful, but is it useful in the BM setting? (I got the passing thought that scum could extend it out but..bleh, I'm thinking more on how the game will go. :P)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 10, 2013, 04:19:57 am

I'm against the idea of a player being able to just throw down an extend whenever they want. It should really be a group decision by my reckoning. Buuuut, it's up to you mate.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 10, 2013, 05:43:12 pm

Conversing with Imp is always fun.
*ahem*
So we've reached the decision to wait (and to respect Jim's decision) for even if I'm the moderator, this is a class of a whole new [or mostly new] batch of newbies and I'd want the best quality to be available to them.

Also I don't want unnecessary probable stress over the holidays (especially Christmas! :O) so...we're all waiting on New Year!

Unless someone would like to dedicate themselves and pop in now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 10, 2013, 05:53:06 pm

Can we do another Sprint in the meantime?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Imp on December 10, 2013, 06:04:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 10, 2013, 05:43:12 pm

Conversing with Imp is always fun.
*ahem*

*Imp hides.  Is she hiding and waiting for a next opportunity to strike?  Is she hiding from shame or embarrassment?  Is she just a creature of the night or agoraphobic?  Who knows, but wow, watch her hide*

*while she hides, she sings this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mneEVrWHzTE) and grins*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 10, 2013, 06:23:31 pm

Well I feel a little useless just sitting around so I think I should probably ask this: Does anyone have any questions the want to ask me [or the future IC] before the game starts? Any questions about how things work or the like?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Silthuri on December 10, 2013, 09:03:26 pm

Wait no more for I love questions!

How do you choose what you're going to ask someone? Is it just random or are there other factors that come in to play?

Also, when is it the best time to focus in on one person? For example, when you have a gut feeling/your a cop and know they're scum or when you have a fair amount of "evidence" against them? Or I guess what I'm really asking is IS there a best time?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Imp on December 10, 2013, 09:42:25 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 10, 2013, 09:03:26 pm

Wait no more for I love questions!

How do you choose what you're going to ask someone? Is it just random or are there other factors that come in to play?

Also, when is it the best time to focus in on one person? For example, when you have a gut feeling/your a cop and know they're scum or when you have a fair amount of "evidence" against them? Or I guess what I'm really asking is IS there a best time?

Oooh, ohh!  I'm maybe the a future IC someday, so I'll offer a perspective too:

There isn't really a 'best time' for questions or narrow or broad focus, but timing can matter, it's situational.

Never forget your goal.  If you're Town, you want to find the Scum, and everything you do in play is ideally going to somehow help you find them, from the questions you ask to the timing you use to the specific wording you pick - or not.  Depends on you, and if that's not your style, then you'll need to find and develop your own.

If you're Scum, then you need to appear to be Town and appear to want to find the Scum, but you need to do so in a way that helps ensure that the fewest possible Scum are voted for - note that may mean scumhunting your Scumbuddy and helping Town lynch that player, even on Day 1.  That's called bussing - and is not an ideal tactic - unless in your exact circumstances it is the ideal tactic.

As to what questions to pick to ask who - I recommend you read over a few of the finished BM games, maybe just read the first few pages after start of play for now from a handful.  See what others asked as their opening questions or whatever else people started with, see how well or poorly that seemed to work.  When I played my first BM I'd not yet read any games.  As I started to play, I started to read 3 previous BMs, only to the approximate point I was at in the one I was playing.  As the game progressed, I read a little more.  When things seemed harder or weird, I started looking at other finished games, non-BM games, and checked out what had happened in those games around the point mine was at.

General question advice is 'ask questions related to Mafia in some way', 'follow up on the answers if you see anything to follow up on', and 'ask both the types of questions you don't know the answer to, and the sort of questions that you think you -do- know the answer to'.  Like what did someone mean when they said something (quote it when you ask).  Ask someone what they think something means that someone else answered or asked.

As you talk to people, you're likely to notice things that make more or less sense to you, see things that seem off or weird.  Ask people about them.  Give people chances to explain themselves (that was perhaps my biggest fault in my first game, I -leapt- to lynch people I thought were Scummy.  Those people -were- Scummy!  But they were not actually Scum.  More communication might have helped straighten that out and avoid a mislynch).  Question, question more, keep questioning.  When things make sense and feel right, maybe they are.  When things seem off and wrong and you're finding inconsistencies, maybe they are.

Consider paying attention to what everyone is doing as best as you can.  You might find very interesting things in the questions and answers that are not directed at you, and you can and potentially should ask about that interaction as well.

One potentially cautionary note - you may (or may not) want to consider not asking about someone else's question until after it's been answered (or some time has passed and it's clear that it won't be answered anytime soon).  There's more than one school of thought on that one,  but some people feel that 'jumping in' like that changes how the question's target is likely to answer, and may take pressure off of Scum (Scum may have been thinking 'OMG I got asked a really hard to answer question, what do I do!' then see your question and think 'Oh, that's just a really weird question.  Thank goodness that guy got involved, now do I want to attack that guy for jumping in or attack the guy that asked me the question for asking such a weird question?' or something along those lines).  Others feel there's little or nothing wrong with asking about what someone else asks immediately - the interaction as a whole, what gets reacted to, and what appears not to be reacted to, tells a useful story and 'jumping in' has a place and a value, at least sometimes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 08:26:54 pm

I rest in peace with my decision. ^ ^

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 11, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 10, 2013, 09:42:25 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 10, 2013, 09:03:26 pm

Wait no more for I love questions!

How do you choose what you're going to ask someone? Is it just random or are there other factors that come in to play?

Also, when is it the best time to focus in on one person? For example, when you have a gut feeling/your a cop and know they're scum or when you have a fair amount of "evidence" against them? Or I guess what I'm really asking is IS there a best time?

Oooh, ohh!  I'm maybe the a future IC someday, so I'll offer a perspective too:

There isn't really a 'best time' for questions or narrow or broad focus, but timing can matter, it's situational.

Never forget your goal.  If you're Town, you want to find the Scum, and everything you do in play is ideally going to somehow help you find them, from the questions you ask to the timing you use to the specific wording you pick - or not.  Depends on you, and if that's not your style, then you'll need to find and develop your own.

If you're Scum, then you need to appear to be Town and appear to want to find the Scum, but you need to do so in a way that helps ensure that the fewest possible Scum are voted for - note that may mean scumhunting your Scumbuddy and helping Town lynch that player, even on Day 1.  That's called bussing - and is not an ideal tactic - unless in your exact circumstances it is the ideal tactic.

As to what questions to pick to ask who - I recommend you read over a few of the finished BM games, maybe just read the first few pages after start of play for now from a handful.  See what others asked as their opening questions or whatever else people started with, see how well or poorly that seemed to work.  When I played my first BM I'd not yet read any games.  As I started to play, I started to read 3 previous BMs, only to the approximate point I was at in the one I was playing.  As the game progressed, I read a little more.  When things seemed harder or weird, I started looking at other finished games, non-BM games, and checked out what had happened in those games around the point mine was at.

General question advice is 'ask questions related to Mafia in some way', 'follow up on the answers if you see anything to follow up on', and 'ask both the types of questions you don't know the answer to, and the sort of questions that you think you -do- know the answer to'.  Like what did someone mean when they said something (quote it when you ask).  Ask someone what they think something means that someone else answered or asked.

As you talk to people, you're likely to notice things that make more or less sense to you, see things that seem off or weird.  Ask people about them.  Give people chances to explain themselves (that was perhaps my biggest fault in my first game, I -leapt- to lynch people I thought were Scummy.  Those people -were- Scummy!  But they were not actually Scum.  More communication might have helped straighten that out and avoid a mislynch).  Question, question more, keep questioning.  When things make sense and feel right, maybe they are.  When things seem off and wrong and you're finding inconsistencies, maybe they are.

Consider paying attention to what everyone is doing as best as you can.  You might find very interesting things in the questions and answers that are not directed at you, and you can and potentially should ask about that interaction as well.

One potentially cautionary note - you may (or may not) want to consider not asking about someone else's question until after it's been answered (or some time has passed and it's clear that it won't be answered anytime soon).  There's more than one school of thought on that one,  but some people feel that 'jumping in' like that changes how the question's target is likely to answer, and may take pressure off of Scum (Scum may have been thinking 'OMG I got asked a really hard to answer question, what do I do!' then see your question and think 'Oh, that's just a really weird question.  Thank goodness that guy got involved, now do I want to attack that guy for jumping in or attack the guy that asked me the question for asking such a weird question?' or something along those lines).  Others feel there's little or nothing wrong with asking about what someone else asks immediately - the interaction as a whole, what gets reacted to, and what appears not to be reacted to, tells a useful story and 'jumping in' has a place and a value, at least sometimes.

Well... I said earlier "Mine and Imp's play-styles don't really mesh so I should be able to still offer good advice for MOWE." Then I read this. I have nothing to add. That's pretty much the best way to put it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Shakerag on December 12, 2013, 11:20:01 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 10, 2013, 09:03:26 pm

Wait no more for I love questions!

How do you choose what you're going to ask someone? Is it just random or are there other factors that come in to play?

Also, when is it the best time to focus in on one person? For example, when you have a gut feeling/your a cop and know they're scum or when you have a fair amount of "evidence" against them? Or I guess what I'm really asking is IS there a best time?

1 - If someone has done something that looks odd, ask them about it.  If you don't have a lead on a person, ask them about something else that has happened in the game so far.  A tactic that I often use (which ties in with #2 below) is to make a (mostly) baseless accusation against someone and see how they react to it.  If they get defensive, press them on it hard.  If not, move on.

2 - Focusing on just one person is usually not the best course of action.  I usually like to maintain focus on several players at once.  Perhaps one main focus, and a few secondary focuses (foci?).  That way you can put the thumbscrews on one person, and keep firing off follow-up questions to other players.  It's good activity whether you're town or scum.  And that way if your main focus doesn't go anywhere, you've already got ground on a few other players to make one of them your new main focus. 

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Imp on December 16, 2013, 05:29:18 pm

Out, sudden chaos and upheaval in my life; I'd be letting this game down if I tried to stay in.

If/when things clear up, if it's still going on, I'll come back and offer my services as a replacement.  Until then, best to not even consider me a replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Gentlefish on December 16, 2013, 06:25:18 pm

Good luck Imp, I hope everything ends up well for you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 08:35:31 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 16, 2013, 05:29:18 pm

Out, sudden chaos and upheaval in my life; I'd be letting this game down if I tried to stay in.

If/when things clear up, if it's still going on, I'll come back and offer my services as a replacement.  Until then, best to not even consider me a replacement.

u__u

Glad to know the reasons in the PM you sent me...I really hope you'll do better in the holidays henceforth Imp. Thanks! =)

*twiddles thumbs until that one IC comes*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 20, 2013, 08:14:31 pm

Are we just ignoring the fact that Imp left Tiruin? Because she's still listed in the OP as playing, you keep saying we only need 1 IC when we actually need an IC and a Player. Just something I noticed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:23:22 am

Ahh, no actually. She had PM'd me recently about how she's doing. ~New Year time or so, she'll be able to play (she's in for a replacement until then, possibly) and by the looks of the board, at about that time will an IC be willing to come in and join.

But I didn't edit it in the OP. Good catch. I'll be removing Imp's name though, just in case (though things are getting better for her nowadays).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 21, 2013, 04:15:52 pm

Nope, it's time to start voting. MOWE because I can.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Silthuri on December 21, 2013, 04:31:49 pm

Well, Nerjin, two can play at that game!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:54:43 pm

No Lynch.

I'd rather not see any deaths before I even put down flavor to describe your deaths. :P

[Or we can have a mock trial situation here so everyone can playtest without their alignments being known..your choice. I'm up for linking the game start-post in the OP if that rolls out as on the normal forum format, this is page 5, going 6.]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 21, 2013, 04:59:14 pm

Hammering No Lynch

---

No Lynch stood before the assembled players waiting for the game to start. "Wait what?" They asked before they were hanged by their toes from the rafters. It was more comfortable than it appeared. Still, one must wonder how two votes constitutes a hammer... Oh well... Night -1 begins now.

No Lynch has been lynched! He was a Non-player Character

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Gentlefish on December 21, 2013, 04:59:48 pm

Everyone is guilty! Wahahaaa!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 21, 2013, 05:02:42 pm

Day -485 Vote Count:

---

Everyone: Pufferfish
Not Voting: Everyone Else, Everyone, Sam I am, I am Sam, Tiruin, Webadict, ToadyOne, ToadyTwo, Prince Achmed, Jafar, Belle, Gaston, Frollo, Mr. New Vegas, President John Henry Eden

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Silthuri on December 21, 2013, 05:30:06 pm

Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin. Nerjin Nerjin. Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin Nerjin

I win!!!  :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Nerjin on December 21, 2013, 05:31:33 pm

Hm, I seem to recall mentioning something about not OMGUSing. OH! I win. Anyways, we better stop before we clutter this thing up too much.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! IC Needed then game start
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:28:03 am

*sigh*

"Idle hands and idle mouths are ready for a war at their doorstep."

:P

So aren't you going to give pre-game details about how you use your vote and details along that line? As in, how to build a case without going along the foolish path of 'using labels' to satisfy your case there?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Jembot on December 22, 2013, 01:46:42 am

In for the last spot, this seems like it will be fun never done this before.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Imp on December 22, 2013, 05:04:50 am

Quote from: Jembot on December 22, 2013, 01:46:42 am

In for the last spot, this seems like it will be fun never done this before.

It is definitely a good idea to open my spot and let another have it; and lo, here is another!  My life remains hectic, unpredictable, distracting, and difficult to juggle, and it is not certain that things will clear up by the beginning of next year.

Play with intense joy, all of you lot here!  I'll be watching when I can, and I'll be on the replacement list if my life grants me the freedom to do that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 11:23:32 am

Glad to see that come; wishing you all well as always--have a great Christmas! Imp, thanks for that heads-up by the way. :)
^{Boy, I should've replied to that PM when I had more time...}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: webadict on December 28, 2013, 11:56:34 pm

Y'all should just run the game with 8 beginners. Seriously, holding the game back for another IC is just wasting time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 12:04:59 am

Given that the ICs are playing, we're looking at a 6:2 ratio here.
^{Why don't you join in...}
However, I'm up for running it early if 1/2 +1 of the majority agrees.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 29, 2013, 12:07:24 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 12:04:59 am

Given that the ICs are playing, we're looking at a 6:2 ratio here.
^{Why don't you join in...}
However, I'm up for running it early if 1/2 +1 of the majority agrees.

I'm neutral. Another mafia game I'm in is just about to start, so I don't really want to be in two at once. At the same time, I wouldn't mind participating.

I may decide one way or the other later.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 12:09:30 am

Shall I mention the aforementioned benefits of playing in this game? :P
I think they're pretty obvious.

1. It's a stickied thread!
2. Beginner's Game!
3. Helping the new players is much better than playing with Mafia Regulars!
4. BMs are FUN!
5. You'll help me test out my writing skills! :D
6. We can start this game by January!
7. You will bring Joy to seven other people, at least.
8. People can start plotting and scheming.
9. We can kick off D1 and test out those newfangled time mechanics.
10. You'll be helping a lot of people!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 29, 2013, 12:10:35 am

I'm looking forward to this game. However, it is debatable whether it would be a good idea to start with only 1 IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: webadict on December 29, 2013, 01:01:30 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 12:09:30 am

Shall I mention the aforementioned benefits of playing in this game? :P
I think they're pretty obvious.

1. It's a stickied thread!
2. Beginner's Game!
3. Helping the new players is much better than playing with Mafia Regulars!
4. BMs are FUN!
5. You'll help me test out my writing skills! :D
6. We can start this game by January!
7. You will bring Joy to seven other people, at least.
8. People can start plotting and scheming.
9. We can kick off D1 and test out those newfangled time mechanics.
10. You'll be helping a lot of people!

I'm too busy to play at the moment. Plus, I'm a terrible influence on people. I'd have to tell people NOT to do what I do. I play Town like scum, and I play scum like an even more scummy version of scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: mastahcheese on December 29, 2013, 01:19:40 am

Would my current schedule of only usually being able to get on really late in the day be ok?

Then I'd join you guys so you could at least start it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 02:05:45 am

Quote from: webadict on December 29, 2013, 01:01:30 am

I'm too busy to play at the moment. Plus, I'm a terrible influence on people. I'd have to tell people NOT to do what I do. I play Town like scum, and I play scum like an even more scummy version of scum.

Actually, this is one way of learning. You show how a player plays, and leave the analysis to them--then guide them along. It's like both analyzing yourself and leaving the consequences to an uncontrolled variable. :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 29, 2013, 09:14:17 am

I'm game to start early.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: mastahcheese on December 29, 2013, 10:02:54 am

Alright, I'll join your little game of diplomancy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 29, 2013, 12:18:45 pm

As a beginner correct? I don't recall seeing you around these parts. Then again I'm pretty poor at it at any rate.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 01:50:35 pm

Four maximum votes For an early start if Web's is counted. And we're at page 7!

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 29, 2013, 10:02:54 am

Alright, I'll join your little game of diplomancy.

You'll be put in the replacement list as the only slot open is for a playing IC. :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: mastahcheese on December 29, 2013, 06:07:08 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on December 29, 2013, 12:18:45 pm

As a beginner correct? I don't recall seeing you around these parts. Then again I'm pretty poor at it at any rate.

Yeah, I've never played this before, so I'm a beginner.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: makeinu on December 29, 2013, 06:28:28 pm

You can let him play my spot as a beginner. I can be IC-in-training? I think I've a handle on bay12 standards of play now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: webadict on December 29, 2013, 08:07:22 pm

I mean, I get the point of an IC, but you don't need two. You can run this with zero.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 29, 2013, 10:14:59 pm

Quote from: webadict on December 29, 2013, 08:07:22 pm

I mean, I get the point of an IC, but you don't need two. You can run this with zero.

I'd...rather run this with people who are willing instead of leaving the spot blank for dust to settle. So I'd rather place makeinu in the last IC slot if nobody has any qualms with it due to the lacking numbers, and replace his player slot with mastahcheese.

Then we can start the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Persus13 on December 29, 2013, 10:33:22 pm

I'm fine with that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Silthuri on December 30, 2013, 12:08:05 am

Sounds good to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 12:08:47 am

Sure, I guess.

Participating in two mafia games at once will certainly be interesting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:10:36 am

It's... a little challenging.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 12:14:44 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:10:36 am

It's... a little challenging.

Ah. That's not good. It really is unfortunate that both mafia games had a delay of around a month and then started at the same time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:29:32 am

Think of it in terms of playing a scum role. You have to compartmentalize, keeping one game separate from the other, just as you have to keep the in-group knowledge as scum separate from your public scum-hunting. It's true that at different times, one game or the other will get more attention than the other, though, so keep that in your head as well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 30, 2013, 01:52:41 am

Alright, just need confirmation from the few others left (makeinu and probably anyone else who wants a say before I start issuing roles in, oh, say 30 minutes.)

Then we officially start the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Gentlefish on December 30, 2013, 01:56:00 am

Yeah, confirming.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 02:04:50 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 30, 2013, 01:56:00 am

Yeah, confirming.

QFT.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on December 30, 2013, 02:14:54 am

Could I get a spoilspec?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Gentlefish on December 30, 2013, 04:34:52 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 02:04:50 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 30, 2013, 01:56:00 am

Yeah, confirming.

QFT.

wHat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 06:52:32 am

I can confirm now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here!
Post by: Tiruin on December 30, 2013, 07:17:04 am

Quote from: Urist Imiknorris on December 30, 2013, 02:14:54 am

Could I get a spoilspec?

Enjoy your popcorn. :)

Sending roles~

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! Day 1
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 08:57:50 am

Awww, he gets popcorn? *pokes at bowl of gruel*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! Day 1
Post by: Tiruin on December 30, 2013, 09:01:15 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 08:57:50 am

Awww, he gets popcorn? *pokes at bowl of gruel*

You're a mighty wizard. :v

Anyway, checking up on all profiles for 'date last active'...I just hope some of those who had any recent MIA status would respond before disappearing.

Give me an hour or two and then the game starts. Home stuff happened.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! Day 1
Post by: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 09:02:39 am

Something I find helpful to do when you get your role PM whether it is a power role or not is to sit down and think for several minutes. How should you proceed? Obviously for regular town this is an easy question to answer, but as a Medic or a Cop it might help think of who would be the best person to target each night. Just think on that once you get your role. Also, since Tiriun is trying to improve her writing it might be a good idea to actually send a PM back explaining what you liked or did not like about the flavor.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: New Players--Enlist here! Day 1
Post by: Tiruin on December 30, 2013, 10:40:09 am

"We may live in a broken world; a shattered world; a world where opinions differ as the stars in the sky, fraught with violence, mischief and evil. Yet, we thrive: not on the concept of self-preservation, for that is a basis and not a rule, but due to our sentience and our individual power; we have the power to make a choice, as we have the final say in our choices. All people, of any nation and belief, have the power to make this world into a better place.

"For this, is our world. The only world we will ever have."

Two days of light, one day of darkness, one day overcast, and twenty-four hours used in measurements. This is how it has been in the world. Society adapts, and in the last hundred or so years, their culture has flourished.

In the ending days of the year, celebrations are often held to commemorate history and culture, to celebrate what once was and what is known to be. A festive atmosphere pervades the town as men, women and children of all races, belief and culture meet in these times of commonality--for there has been, and shall be no law limiting respect and value of the living and the dead.

A grand stage is set at the town plaza, easily visible from most of the core sectors; this is where the scene takes place. It is of simple make: furnished holywood and sturdy, branching supports. The local magistrate calls the attention of the crowds, shutting down most noise of the boisterous and merry masses. He calls for the dimming of lights, and the city grows dark for a single moment.

Then, a sudden flash of light appears, and on the stage appears seven 'people', of varying costume and appearance. Their forms are amorphous, magical and intricate, deeply delving into the field of magic--likewise known as the Arts--in order to represent their work. They are striking in appearance, and create a vision of their own in the eyes of the people who are captivated in the display of talent and skill. They mimic the forms of the elders, shaping the land, air and sea, whilst acting in the same as the first civilizations, what with their 'crude' works and feats, their trials and tribulations. Their forms are simple, though their works are facile. The crowd is awed.

The stage soon becomes a miniaturized planet, floating in mid-air, with vivid scenes of life brimming in the oceans and plains, of greenery spreading in the mountains and hills. All is peaceful, until a darkness fills the world, and covers it in fog. Here, two beings appear, somewhat more distinct than the original seven, yet most of the crowd nearest the stage balk at their sight.

It is here that the first act starts. The stage is set. The play has begun.

---

---

Two Forces are hiding amongst you nine. Each day, you may vote off one person for the lynch through the majority.

Days come and go in 72 hours, nights take 24 hours. Weekends are not counted in the timer [and therefore act as added time in the Generic Calendar/Clock, linked in the date]. Take note that this BM uses a different extend/shorten scheme than the ones prior.

If you've any questions or things pertaining to your role, PM the Moderator [Tiruin].

---

Vote standings:

• Elephant Parade -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• makeinu -

Day 1 has begun and will end at January 3, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140103T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Extended due to holidays. :)

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 09:02:39 am

Something I find helpful to do when you get your role PM whether it is a power role or not is to sit down and think for several minutes. How should you proceed? Obviously for regular town this is an easy question to answer, but as a Medic or a Cop it might help think of who would be the best person to target each night. Just think on that once you get your role. Also, since Tiriun is trying to improve her writing it might be a good idea to actually send a PM back explaining what you liked or did not like about the flavor.

..Thanks so much for this.
^{And please do!}

Edit: Messed up the timer. Oops!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:02:39 am

Wow, not only did Limerick mafia and this start on the same day, they started within three minutes of each other. Yikes.

Puff: Now that you've played as Scum and Town, which do you find more fun?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 11:11:37 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:02:39 am

Wow, not only did Limerick mafia and this start on the same day, they started within three minutes of each other. Yikes.

*begins quietly chanting* compartmentalize, compartmentalize, compartmentalize...

Quote

Puff: Now that you've played as Scum and Town, which do you find more fun?

Wait... where was Puff scum? I missed that one...  :-\

Oooh, though... I will ask the same question of you, Persus. And, do you think we'll see anywhere near as easy a victory as in Paranormal 23?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:47:18 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 11:11:37 am

Quote

Puff: Now that you've played as Scum and Town, which do you find more fun?

Wait... where was Puff scum? I missed that one...  :-\

Oooh, though... I will ask the same question of you, Persus. And, do you think we'll see anywhere near as easy a victory as in Paranormal 23?

Puff was scum in the last Beginner's Mafia (not BM Sprint)

I personally find being scum more fun. I find it more fun to be devious and try and get other people lynched. Playing town can also be very maddening, like D2 of Paranormal when 4 people thought I was scum, and only one was Mafia.

And I doubt I'll play a game as easy as Paranormal again. In addition, Mafia tend to win more BM games.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

Woo! Game start!

I guess I'll start with a round of questions for everyone, then.


•Elephant Parade - You're playing in two games at once, if you have conflicting roles in the two, would a scumtell in one possibly be an indicator in the other? How well can you separate your frame of thought for them?
•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?
•Jembot - You're the doctor, and after seeing someone scumhunting in a very powerful and effective way, you protect them, and nobody dies in the night. Do you now support their decisions and try to back them up? How would you go about this without it seeming like buddying?
•Persus13 - You were scum in the last BM sprint game, along with Tiruin. What did you think was the most important part of your strategy in not being targeted? Also, you failed to answer makeinu's question.
•Pufferfish - What do you think was your biggest mistake in the last BM sprint game, where Persus and Tiruin won as scum? If you could go back, how would you have fixed it?
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - You're scum, and it's day 2. You failed to kill anyone during the night because of a doctor's interference. How would you attempt to discern who the doctor is?
•Nerjin - What have you observed about other people's playing styles? Is there anyone in particular that comes to mind as unique?
•makeinu - Thanks for ICing! What advice would you give to a new player who's never played before?

Ok, I think that's everyone.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:21:43 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•makeinu - Thanks for ICing! What advice would you give to a new player who's never played before?

Well, in-training, but thank you!

*dons IC hat*

You've gotten to a great start. I presume you've read about forum mafia, and that you've read past games here. If you haven't done the latter, by all means, pick a few recent ones, and go through them, including the scum and dead chats. They'll tell you a lot about how people play, and maybe, just maybe, give you an advance read on their tells.

Be mindful, however, that meta-gaming isn't the answer to scum-hunting. Experienced players know their own tells, and will use that against you. Each game is different, and a good player plays each game to win, so learn from the past, but play only this game. Don't rely on meta-knowledge to hunt with, it's only one small weapon in your arsenal.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:38:18 pm

Thanks! And yes, you can learn from the past and from other fronts, but can't rely on them. And yes, I've read a couple games, like the recent sprint game that Persus and Tiruin were scum in.
So for an actual, in-game question: makeinu: It is MYLO, and both scum are still alive. There are 2 votes on a lurker, and the other 3 haven't voted yet, including the lurker. How do you proceed?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 12:41:03 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Persus13 - You were scum in the last BM sprint game, along with Tiruin. What did you think was the most important part of your strategy in not being targeted? Also, you failed to answer makeinu's question.

Appearing as town as possible, and avoiding drawing attention while making sure that no one would think I was scum.

And I fail to understand how I failed to answer Makeinu's question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 12:49:07 pm

Quote

•Elephant Parade - You're playing in two games at once, if you have conflicting roles in the two, would a scumtell in one possibly be an indicator in the other? How well can you separate your frame of thought for them?

Hmm. I don't know what the answer would be for the first one. Maybe, I guess? For the second one, I will probably try to focus on each in separate blocks of time; i.e., only paying attention to one for one hour and the other one for the next hour. This might help me a bit, but it'll probably still be confusing. I'm tempted to ask for a replacement in one or the other.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:53:37 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 12:41:03 pm

And I fail to understand how I failed to answer Makeinu's question.

I just read back, and I see you did, sorry, I didn't see that the first time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:57:12 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:38:18 pm

So for an actual, in-game question: makeinu: It is MYLO, and both scum are still alive. There are 2 votes on a lurker, and the other 3 haven't voted yet, including the lurker. How do you proceed?

Hmm... I'm presuming from the wording that I'm one of the three not yet voting, and not one of the scum or the lurker. So, I'm going to think this one aloud, rather than just give an answer.

Highly situational dependent. Ordinarily, lynching a lurker is good policy, early in the game. They're not helping root out scum, and presumably good information is gained from their role-flip. MyLo changes that, however. Learning that your lurker was Town playing badly doesn't help when it hands the scum the win. So there's no blanket right answer to that.

It comes down to my own suspicions, evidence from vote records on days past, et cetera. How long has this lurker been lurking? Did they show evidence of good scum-hunting then go quiet? Were they questionable before, and started lurking under pressure? What about the two voters, what's their track record so far? Same for the other active non-voter?

You can only pressure a lurker so much, to be honest, before it becomes counter-productive. So, presuming that the lurker wasn't fairly obvious scum from previous behavior, I'd turn my attentions elsewhere and continue to withhold my vote. At five players, MyLo, you're in serious danger of the scum quickhammering the lynch.

For the record, I watched that exact situation develop in a game I ran once. The scum had successfully set up another player in a solid frame-job and eliminated them, then at MyLo placed one vote on a Townie that had suspicion built up against them from previous days, and waited. Once a second vote came, down came the hammer and the win.

Two votes on a target at MyLo means only one of two things: either the lurker is scum, or both the votes are scum already. If the evidence doesn't point to the former, assume the latter, and start pressuring one or both. One of them will break, because that's just a dumb situation to put yourself in.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Well this is a good day. I have been eagerly discussing this game with a very close friend of mine and am eager to see how this goes down. Now let’s start with a few things that are related but are not exactly necessary.

---

1.   It’s considered good manners to NOT intrude on another players questioning. Do you have an interesting take on the question? Good. Keep it to yourself until the intended person answers it. Otherwise you might cause them to change their answer and ruin the other player’s plan for it. There are exceptions though.
2.    Do not discuss, in detail, other on-going games. For all intents and purposes you have not read those threads. If I say “I’m scum” in one thread it has no bearing on this one. This goes for anything I could possibly say.
3.   The Luker Tracker ZU Edition (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/) is your friend. It’s been especially helpful to me. You don’t NEED to use it. But it IS helpful none-the-less.
4.   Have a personal problem with another player? Are you their best friend? Spouses? Too bad. In-game they are nothing to you. It’s sometimes hard to think of a friend trying to betray you. I’ve made this mistake in mafia. Remember though it’s a game so they might be out to get you. Try to maintain an even and fair view of everything and everyone.

---

Alright that all said I want to address everyone. Later on these become HUGE walls of text so I’m going to familiarize you guys with my way of formatting early on. Every, living, player has a spoiler which contains any thoughts and feelings regarding them. Let’s get started.

---

Spoiler: makeinu (click to show/hide)

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 11:11:37 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:02:39 am

Wow, not only did Limerick mafia and this start on the same day, they started within three minutes of each other. Yikes.

*begins quietly chanting* compartmentalize, compartmentalize, compartmentalize...

Charming, but not really relevant. I'd like to point out to everyone that this sort've joking is fine to a point. Keep focused on the game though and make sure every post counts.

Quote from: The Same as Above

Oooh, though... I will ask the same question of you, Persus. And, do you think we'll see anywhere near as easy a victory as in Paranormal 23?

Please try to ask varied questions. Simply ping-ponging a question is rather lazy.

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:21:43 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•makeinu - Thanks for ICing! What advice would you give to a new player who's never played before?

Well, in-training, but thank you!

*dons IC hat*

[[makeinu proceeds to discuss how mastahcheese has done so far and then discusses meta-gaming]]

Ooh, I'm training new players AND a new IC!? I feel so honored! Anyways, your advice was pretty good. Though it bears mentioning that meta-gaming is the only advice you offered. Maybe discussing other popular ways of playing [Gut feelings, Vote Pattern, etc.] would be a great addition to your post! One last thing though:

Try not to do what you did in the beginning. It's always tempting to tell players, in-game, that they're doing great and that you think they'll do just fine. This is something I feel you should avoid. Singling out players as doing well implies the others are not doing as well. I try to keep my praises as a blanket affair "You are all doing well! But these areas [list areas] need some work." But that's just my view on it.

I notice you’ve only really devoted any time towards Persus and Mastahcheese. Is there a reason you’re ignoring everyone else? Is there a reason you’re only focusing on these two?

Spoiler: Mastahcheese (click to show/hide)

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

Misconception there buddy. I'm sorry, but Cop sees alignment. Still I'm also interested in knowing the answer.

Quote from: The Same

•Nerjin - What have you observed about other people's playing styles? Is there anyone in particular that comes to mind as unique?

I've observed that everyone here is a new player and that I don't really pay attention to meta. Anyone in this game that comes off as unique? Not yet. I've just met all of you wonderful children.

Alright, here’s my question to you: Of the players you have questioned do you have a follow up plan in mind? Asking everyone questions is really good. But how do you proceed from here?

Spoiler: Persus13 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:47:18 am

I personally find being scum more fun. I find it more fun to be devious and try and get other people lynched. Playing town can also be very maddening, like D2 of Paranormal when 4 people thought I was scum, and only one was Mafia.

And I doubt I'll play a game as easy as Paranormal again. In addition, Mafia tend to win more BM games.

Yeah, being town can be maddening. Granted some game types are EXTREMELY frustrating. It's best to just recall that everyone is just trying to have fun.

Do you really think you need a BM? I've seen you in other games. Anyways, here's a quick question for you: How do you intend to use your past experience in mafia for this game?

Spoiler: ElephantParade (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 12:49:07 pm

Quote

•Elephant Parade - You're playing in two games at once, if you have conflicting roles in the two, would a scumtell in one possibly be an indicator in the other? How well can you separate your frame of thought for them?

Hmm. I don't know what the answer would be for the first one. Maybe, I guess? For the second one, I will probably try to focus on each in separate blocks of time; i.e., only paying attention to one for one hour and the other one for the next hour. This might help me a bit, but it'll probably still be confusing. I'm tempted to ask for a replacement in one or the other.

It's best to only do what you think you're ready for. Replacements happen. No one will get mad at you for it. When I first asked to be replaced I felt guilty as all hell. But they happen. That being said please try to stick with it as best you can okay mate?

Now onto the actual content of your post: Do you not have anything to question others on? Any observations on the players who've posted so far? Passive play is good for going undetected. Active play is good for finding scum who, coincidently, tend to play passively. Try to keep that in mind.

Spoiler: SinlessMoon, Jembot, Pufferfish, MyOwnWorstEnemy (click to show/hide)

They’ve not posted yet so I have nothing to say on them.

---

Since it’s so early in the day I don’t really have much else to say but I do have a bit of a blanket question for EVERYONE:

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?
[/list]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 01:02:38 pm

I'm either going to be absent for part of the 2nd and 4th, by the way. Probably ~6 hours.

Quote

Do you not have anything to question others on? Any observations on the players who've posted so far?

Not yet, no. I got up about an hour ago, and have spent very little time on this or the other mafia game.

Yeah, I'm going to go request a replacement in the other game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 01:12:33 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 11:11:37 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:02:39 am

Wow, not only did Limerick mafia and this start on the same day, they started within three minutes of each other. Yikes.

*begins quietly chanting* compartmentalize, compartmentalize, compartmentalize...

Charming, but not really relevant. I'd like to point out to everyone that this sort've joking is fine to a point. Keep focused on the game though and make sure every post counts

No, not really relevant per se, but you'll find that's part of my style at the beginning of games, when there's nothing to go on yet.

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:21:43 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•makeinu - Thanks for ICing! What advice would you give to a new player who's never played before?

Well, in-training, but thank you!

*dons IC hat*

[[makeinu proceeds to discuss how mastahcheese has done so far and then discusses meta-gaming]]

[[IC advice]][/quote]

Noted, and appreciated.

Quote

I notice you’ve only really devoted any time towards Persus and Mastahcheese. Is there a reason you’re ignoring everyone else? Is there a reason you’re only focusing on these two?

None in particular, no. Four of the players here I've been up against previously so far, and of them only Persus has posted. I bounced his question because in two games together, he's been scum in one and town in the other, so I was curious as to what he'd say.

Of the others, only mastahcheese has posted so far, excluding, now, you.

As for ignoring everyone else, I prefer a guided rather than scattershot approach.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 01:17:59 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

Misconception there buddy. I'm sorry, but Cop sees alignment. Still I'm also interested in knowing the answer.

Ah, right, I was thinking it also showed roles. I think there is one that can also see roles, but I don't remember the name of it.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Alright, here’s my question to you: Of the players you have questioned do you have a follow up plan in mind? Asking everyone questions is really good. But how do you proceed from here?

Mostly right now I'm trying to get an idea of how people would theoretically play, as a more long term sort of tell, in case someone does/doesn't do what they say they would in those situations, and how other people would respond to it. I know that late in the game, people will look back on these hypothetical questions and start to analyze the answers to them, so they would possibly help even if I'm not there to be a help myself. Not that I'm expecting to get killed off or anything, but it could happen. I'm just going for a general idea of what people's outcomes on various positions are. Not sure yet what my next move would be, though. Still want to wait for some answers from other people I questioned.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Since it’s so early in the day I don’t really have much else to say but I do have a bit of a blanket question for EVERYONE:

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?
[/list]

I've never played an actual game of Mafia before, but I've played some other games about trust/betrayal/reading into other players before, so I get the idea of them, and I've read a few games of them on this forum.
I think the role I'd like to have the most would be the cop, since I don't like being unsure of things, I like to actually have some evidence, even if it's only on one person, I can sort it out from there.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 01:36:38 pm

*facepalm* I really must remember to preview. Broken tags bug me.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Since it’s so early in the day I don’t really have much else to say but I do have a bit of a blanket question for EVERYONE:

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

Separate question, separate answer. Two games here now, many (over a dozen, I've lost count) on another forum, and I've run several and have a new theme game in development.

Which role, and why. Honestly? Really deep down, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die for reals?

Serial Killer, Ninja/Strongman, for the challenge. The most fun I ever had was playing the Godfather in a large (25 players) theme game, and being the last scum to die with only four Town left. That was a hoot!

Yes, I said hoot. Deal. :P

Though, Vanilla Townie is one of the hardest roles to play, simply because you know nothing. I like knowing things.

New players: There's Cop, which learns alignment only, but not role, and Role Cop, which learns role only, but not alignment. In larger games, that distinction becomes important.

Here's a good place to start for some in-depth reading: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles)

Don't get lost on the wiki-walk.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on December 30, 2013, 02:29:24 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•MyOwnWorstEnemy - You're scum, and it's day 2. You failed to kill anyone during the night because of a doctor's interference. How would you attempt to discern who the doctor is?

Well first I'd go back and look at the previous posts and look for things that appear suspicious. Namely someone who's been lurking continuously with little or no pressure on them. I've heard that doctors,cops, etc. tend to draw as little attention to themselves as they can. After that, I would probably look at the potential doctor's relationship with the target and go from there.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

I have no experience with mafia aside from reading a couple finished games and a friend explaining the basics of the game to me.
 
As for the role, I'd choose doctor. I just think it could be the most beneficial to town, especially if there's a really strong town member hot on the scum's trail. Players like that need to survive as long as possible.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2013, 04:40:58 pm

Replacement request, since apparently this one has a replacement and the other one doesn't.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 09:27:30 pm

Sinlessmoon: Your profile shows you as having been last active at 03:15:59 pm today, after this game started at 10:40:09 am, and you have yet to make your first reply. Please explain yourself.

So as to make you not need to go back to find my earlier question, I'll put it here, as well.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

In addition, here is Nerjin's blanket question to all of us.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

I have checked Jembot and Pufferfish as well, but they both fail to show activity after the game's start, so I can wait.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Jembot on December 30, 2013, 10:45:00 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

I have never played mafia before, but have had a pretty good read through the wiki and am in the process of reading some of the previous games here. I would most likely want to be a cop (either role or vanilla) as that role appears to be very good for town, and gives me a bit more influence on the game than merely vanilla townie, and adds more strategy to my play as well, which I like.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Jembot - You're the doctor, and after seeing someone scumhunting in a very powerful and effective way, you protect them, and nobody dies in the night. Do you now support their decisions and try to back them up? How would you go about this without it seeming like buddying?

I wouldn't believe their every word, but in most cases in which I don't know anything else about that specific person as compared to the person who they are trying to lynch, I would be inclined to believe them. If they tried to lynch someone I wouldn't just hump on the bandwagon immediately, I would make my mind up first, but all other things being equal I would be more likely to vote for who they are trying to lynch than some other lynchee. If they someone tried to lynch them, I would then try to divert attention off them, and would not vote for them unless they did something extremely scummy. I wouldn't just jump to their defense immediately, but start questioning a few other players and see if I can get focus peoples suspicions on them and not on the (most likely) town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Gentlefish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

Oh goodness I saw three pages and was afraid the thread blew up :P Anywho.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:02:39 am

Puff: Now that you've played as Scum and Town, which do you find more fun?

Both were quite fun. I enjoy both halves of the hunt, as each requires a very different approach.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Pufferfish - What do you think was your biggest mistake in the last BM sprint game, where Persus and Tiruin won as scum? If you could go back, how would you have fixed it?

Uh. That's actually a really tough question. I probably would have not lynched anyone first turn and convinced all not to. Or, of course, -not- rolecheck the dead player. :P

Persus:

I forget, are you in Limerick? Also, How about you? What's your favorite side of the field?

MastahblasterCheese:

This is your first game? What do you think you're going to like the most?

All:

Okay, exactly how many of you are playing in both games?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 31, 2013, 12:21:34 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

MastahblasterCheese:

This is your first game? What do you think you're going to like the most?

All:

Okay, exactly how many of you are playing in both games?

I'm only playing this one, and yes, this is my first game.
I think I'll like, most of all, seeing the outcomes of day and night ends. I like seeing reveals, and I can actually work with those, unlike this first stage, where I've never been very good at understanding as I read through them in other games.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 31, 2013, 12:29:02 am

@Tiruin: I'm playing in both games, but I'm trying for a replacement in one or the other.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Gentlefish on December 31, 2013, 12:31:24 am

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 31, 2013, 12:29:02 am

@Tiruin: I'm playing in both games, but I'm trying for a replacement in one or the other.

Why do you think I'm Tiruin?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 31, 2013, 12:32:21 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:31:24 am

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 31, 2013, 12:29:02 am

@Tiruin: I'm playing in both games, but I'm trying for a replacement in one or the other.

Why do you think I'm Tiruin?

Because absent-mindedness leads to typos.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on December 31, 2013, 12:58:50 am

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 30, 2013, 11:47:18 am

I personally find being scum more fun. I find it more fun to be devious and try and get other people lynched. Playing town can also be very maddening, like D2 of Paranormal when 4 people thought I was scum, and only one was Mafia.

And I doubt I'll play a game as easy as Paranormal again. In addition, Mafia tend to win more BM games.

Yeah, being town can be maddening. Granted some game types are EXTREMELY frustrating. It's best to just recall that everyone is just trying to have fun.

Do you really think you need a BM? I've seen you in other games. Anyways, here's a quick question for you: How do you intend to use your past experience in mafia for this game?

I thought I'd play one last one. I feel like I'm still learning the game. I don't actually know how I'll use past knowledge in this game. I make this stuff up as I go along, except when I'm scum.

I enjoy having Night Action roles. those have been the most fun for me.

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

Persus:

I forget, are you in Limerick? Also, How about you? What's your favorite side of the field?

Yep I'm in Limerick. I like to play as scum more than town. I still enjoy town though.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 01:03:47 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Pufferfish - What do you think was your biggest mistake in the last BM sprint game, where Persus and Tiruin won as scum? If you could go back, how would you have fixed it?

Uh. That's actually a really tough question. I probably would have not lynched anyone first turn and convinced all not to. Or, of course, -not- rolecheck the dead player. :P

You couldn't have known in advance that EP would get killed. What I'd have done in your case is immediately claimed Cop. Yes, you'd've been the immediate scum target, but you'd also have been out of consideration as scum without too much argument. But that's neither here nor there, as hashing out old games doesn't help this one.

Quote

All:

Okay, exactly how many of you are playing in both games?

*raises hand* and enjoying it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on December 31, 2013, 02:19:37 am

Since EP may have subbed out of here...
I'll IN As Replacement...
(WHICH I DID EARLIER TIRUIN. GOSH!)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 09:42:28 am

Oi! Sinlessmoon!!

Think you might play this time? We'd love to have you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on December 31, 2013, 10:44:23 am

A quick step-in here for all of you about lurking: Life happens. It is sort of rude to assume someone's lurking the day the game starts. I, for one, feel that lurking begins at around the time that they haven't posted for two Days.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:05:50 am

Normally, I agree with that, Nerjin, and I was schooled on that by Jim Groovester in Paranormal 23. However, Sinlessmoon is pulling the same behavior as from that same game here.

If he doesn't want to play, that's fine. But signing up, then not showing up while actively posting elsewhere is not cool. Especially in a BM, where the loss of one player to non-participation is very costly.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on December 31, 2013, 03:53:56 pm

"History was once thrown away as a thing of the past. Now, we look to our past to build our future."

Guards ready their weapons as the frontal portions of the crowd edge slowly back in apprehension, with the only calm faces in the fore being the spellwardens--vigilantly stoic, as their reputation describes. The crowd is soon taken aback as the two beings shift into the same amorphous forms, and are drawn like vapor towards the planet. Those in the crowds accustomed to plays-as well as the guards-calm the agitated masses as they point out the similarities, along with the chorus of chuckles and uneasy jokes. As while it was time for festivities, wars and rumors of wars were the common talk of the day; this was a matter that could've turned for the worse, in many cases.

The planet soon clears of its fog, and what lay beneath was now an arid wasteland. Nothing but the bare stone that housed the life which once grew upon it. Gone were the titans that governed the realms of life. Gone were the skies and boundless seas. Gone were the times of flourishing wonder. Gone, were the seven and the couple-kin.

Yet there was still the planet. With all its lacking characteristics, therein were colors: minute lights dancing around the surface like a wave rolling across the sea, taking on the six natural 'alignments' known to the common man. The aspects of Fire, Water, Air and Earth were described not in physical or empirical note, but in their symbolic essence. The lights began to break into synchronized cracks, until the whole planet was turned into a spiderweb of iridescent light. This was known to be the field of magic which belies all creation today. The most widely accepted speculation according to modern scholars of the history of the world.

This is the second act. A haunting melody plays, emanating from the planet. It does not sing, but speaks of a time once past, and in the same, of the time in the present.

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon - makeinu
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• makeinu -
• Not Voting: Literally everyone else but makeinu.

Superblackcat has replaced Elephant Parade!

Day 1 has begun and will end at January 3, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140103T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 31, 2013, 02:19:37 am

Since EP may have subbed out of here...
I'll IN As Replacement...
(WHICH I DID EARLIER TIRUIN. GOSH!)

No you didn-
*checks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4819812#msg4819812)*
._.
Nobody said anything after...Erm.
*ahem*
Corrected. You are now Elephant_Parade. Congratulotion!
^{I am a bad moderator. >_>}

Also: I mailed Sinlessmoon about...his performance. I have yet to receive any reply from him.
At all.

If no contact will come of him by January 2, 9pm (GMT +8), then I will open his slot for any willing replacements unless an extension will be granted.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Gentlefish on December 31, 2013, 07:38:26 pm

Pfp.

I'll have time to play tomorrow. Busy day, busy night. Sorry folks!

Seriously, I hate not having time to play on -the first day- but So many new years preps and parties.

Happy new year everyone!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on December 31, 2013, 08:46:05 pm

Yes! Happy new years, I'll get around to asking question once I'm out of le hospital. I really hope sinlessmoon responds, I've seen too many town lynches from failure to participate. Assuming he's town, of course, it just seems to happen a lot.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

So... just in case anyone's not out tonight, here's some questions.

Nerjin: In your opinion, why are so many BMs scum wins?

Pufferfish: It's down to three people: you, a fellow townie, and a scum. The scum has convinced your fellow townie that you are scum. What do you do?

Jembot: You're scum. Your partner is radiating scumminess. Do you bus him or try to frame another person to save them?

makeinu: You're a cop and you know that a certain person, for whom everyone is voting, is town. Do you try to defend the person and role claim or just let it happen and stick to the shadows?

Persus13: You're a doctor and it's day one. How do you decide who to protect?

mastahcheese: You're a cop and find out someone's scum. What's your next move?

Sinlessmoon: You're the cop on day one. How do you go about choosing someone to inspect?

Superblackcat: Everyone's suddenly turning on a person you don't have a case on. What do you do?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on December 31, 2013, 11:51:32 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Persus13: You're a doctor and it's day one. How do you decide who to protect?

Whoever I had a strong town read on the day before.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:55:46 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

makeinu: You're a cop and you know that a certain person, for whom everyone is voting, is town. Do you try to defend the person and role claim or just let it happen and stick to the shadows?

I shall let my actions speak for themselves (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846239#msg4846239) (read down to the vote board).

Though, in retrospect, Jim was absolutely right, vote shenanigans are a bad idea. I won'tsay I wouldn't do that again however.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Jembot on January 01, 2014, 03:18:28 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Jembot: You're scum. Your partner is radiating scumminess. Do you bus him or try to frame another person to save them?

Overall, I would probably not bus, as most people would expect the scum partner to bus in that situation, so bussing doesn't make me look any more town. I would try to look for inconsistencies in anyone else's actions and try to highlight those, or attempt to find a lurker and convince people that they are scum. If their were no inconsistencies or lurkers, I would probably bus if there was already a bandwagon on him, as that isn't really what you would expect scum to do in that situation.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Gentlefish on January 01, 2014, 07:51:48 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Pufferfish: It's down to three people: you, a fellow townie, and a scum. The scum has convinced your fellow townie that you are scum. What do you do?

Role claim the FUCK out of myself.

Unless the scum has. A counterclaim would look... Weird. I would be all like "but no."

In essence, everything I could to turn the vote against scummy scum. Like a townie should.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 01:29:51 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Superblackcat: Everyone's suddenly turning on a person you don't have a case on. What do you do?

I vote the second one to jump on the bandwagon.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 01, 2014, 02:15:26 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

mastahcheese: You're a cop and find out someone's scum. What's your next move?

Hmm, it depends, really.
First, I'd probably observe them to see if I can possibly pick up on who their scumbuddy is before trying to get them lynched, but try to drop a less-than-subtle hint that I'm suspicious of them in case I get NKed, and if I'm about to get lynched, just roleclaim and let everyone know.
I'd try to avoid getting myself killed, though, so I could continue to help.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 01:29:51 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Superblackcat: Everyone's suddenly turning on a person you don't have a case on. What do you do?

I vote the second one to jump on the bandwagon.

Shouldn't you also accuse the third person to jump on it?
I'll take a quote from earlier to state why.

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:57:12 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:38:18 pm

So for an actual, in-game question: makeinu: It is MYLO, and both scum are still alive. There are 2 votes on a lurker, and the other 3 haven't voted yet, including the lurker. How do you proceed?

-snip-

For the record, I watched that exact situation develop in a game I ran once. The scum had successfully set up another player in a solid frame-job and eliminated them, then at MyLo placed one vote on a Townie that had suspicion built up against them from previous days, and waited. Once a second vote came, down came the hammer and the win.

It seems to me that it'd be more logical to accuse the third person to jump the wagon, as the scum team could easily just wait for a townie to take the second spot, and accuse them the very next day, under your suggestion.

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on January 01, 2014, 04:22:55 pm

You know what was nice? Not my day at work. I'm entirely drained... I won't be able to post today I'm afraid.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 01, 2014, 02:15:26 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 01:29:51 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Superblackcat: Everyone's suddenly turning on a person you don't have a case on. What do you do?

I vote the second one to jump on the bandwagon.

Shouldn't you also accuse the third person to jump on it?
I'll take a quote from earlier to state why.

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 12:57:12 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:38:18 pm

So for an actual, in-game question: makeinu: It is MYLO, and both scum are still alive. There are 2 votes on a lurker, and the other 3 haven't voted yet, including the lurker. How do you proceed?

-snip-

For the record, I watched that exact situation develop in a game I ran once. The scum had successfully set up another player in a solid frame-job and eliminated them, then at MyLo placed one vote on a Townie that had suspicion built up against them from previous days, and waited. Once a second vote came, down came the hammer and the win.

It seems to me that it'd be more logical to accuse the third person to jump the wagon, as the scum team could easily just wait for a townie to take the second spot, and accuse them the very next day, under your suggestion.

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Actually, it really depends. On many games, it's the second, but I put FOSes on both the 2nd and 3rd... Just because.

Usually, the hammer-er isn't a scum, unless it's lylo/mylo.

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 01, 2014, 06:24:03 pm

A good scum-tell is not just to look at who voted when, but why. Votes without reasons are generally scummier than votes with reasons, but be sure to look at the rationale posted behind the vote for inconsistencies as well.

Lies are easy to tell. They're very hard to tell consistently, especially under pressure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 02, 2014, 04:08:56 am

Note ahead, a reply:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 02, 2014, 03:41:35 am

Ah, I apologize. I missed this mail. I will attempt to keep up with what's going on. I haven't been around the forums lately, I'll try my best to view the forums with some regularity.

---

I do believe I should mod-extend this to Jan 6 perhaps, despite the utter lack of extend/shorten requests, given that we've only one vote so far.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:52:59 am

I will formally request an extension, given the low activity around New Years.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 02, 2014, 11:35:30 am

Extend. Definitely.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Pufferfish

Quote from: Pufferfish on January 01, 2014, 07:51:48 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Pufferfish: It's down to three people: you, a fellow townie, and a scum. The scum has convinced your fellow townie that you are scum. What do you do?

Role claim the FUCK out of myself.

Unless the scum has. A counterclaim would look... Weird. I would be all like "but no."

In essence, everything I could to turn the vote against scummy scum. Like a townie should.

I don't understand this. I wonder why you feel that a counter-claim in the case above would not be a good idea?

My take is this: if you have a role-claim to make, then make it. Especially in the aftermath of a scum false-claim. Because, after all, they're faking it, right?

---

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 01, 2014, 04:22:55 pm

You know what was nice? Not my day at work. I'm entirely drained... I won't be able to post today I'm afraid.

Hi, Nerjin. Welcome to tomorrow. I hope that your day at work was better. I know that I hate bad days at work too.

Do you have any insights that you'd like to share with us today?

MyOwnWorstEnemy asked a question of you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4875515#msg4875515) that I'd love to hear an answer to. I have my own opinion, naturally, and I'd love to see how your thinking compares to mine.

I notice in your answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4871115#msg4871115) to mastahcheese's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4871020#msg4871020), you say:

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

I don't really pay attention to meta. 

Do you mean that in general, or in this game only? Why? Do you find that meta is not helpful in scum-hunting? Why?

---

Superblackcat:

How do you feel about replacing in for Elephant Parade?

Do you still feel that a BM serves to teach you anything?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

---

Sinlessmoon:

Hi again. Do you feel like playing today?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Extend


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Superblackcat:

How do you feel about replacing in for Elephant Parade?

Do you still feel that a BM serves to teach you anything?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

Replacement for Elephant:
Uhh, Well nothing has happened?

Learning from BM:

Also, I prefer Classic Mafia setup... so BM is usually pretty fun for me, even if I've played several mafia games.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 04:13:03 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

That's true, but sometime scum can care more about getting a townie lynched than about drawing attention. For instance, last game you were the 4th person to vote me, and I'm guessing you were trying to prevent your scumbuddy being lynched.

Makeinu: How's your Sinlessmoon vote going. Why are you voting him now given that that strategy utterly failed last game in terms of getting him to play?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 04:38:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 04:13:03 pm

Makeinu: How's your Sinlessmoon vote going. Why are you voting him now given that that strategy utterly failed last game in terms of getting him to play?

Like shit, obviously, in terms of getting him to play... but I lack a better target for my vote right now, and we don't have another replacement lined up. Unless Imp can join, that is. So, policy lynch at this point.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 05:18:43 pm

Extend

I'll be posting here in a bit but new years is a bit of a heavy time for most of you party animals so I'm wanting to hear a bit more from all of you. I'm in the middle of an important call right this second however but expect me to enlighten the hell out of you guys here once it's done.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 06:24:58 pm

Extend

I think it's unanimous of the people who've replied so far.

makeinu: First off, you failed to ask me a question, I'm not saying this is scummy, I just feel left out.
But mainly what I want to say is that I don't think voting him is really going to make a difference, but I can't make the argument that we shouldn't vote him because of, you know, the lurking bit. I don't want to see yet another day 1 town lynch due once again to a lack of participation (if he's actually scum, though, that will blow my mind, along with being a terrible scum tactic) but it's your vote, in any case.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 04:13:03 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

That's true, but sometime scum can care more about getting a townie lynched than about drawing attention.

Sort of towards Persus13 and Superblackcat, but mostly just my opinion. You also have to take into account the fact that scum might very well vote first or last just because they wouldn't normally do so. But that's just WIFOM, in general.

MyOwnWorstEnemy: It doesn't look like you have much to say at the moment. I'll ask another hypothetical.
One person was pressing very hard one another for scummy behavior, but the presser ends up getting killed in the night, and flips cop. What's your next plan of action?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 06:47:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 06:24:58 pm

makeinu: First off, you failed to ask me a question, I'm not saying this is scummy, I just feel left out.

I don't think you're the only one I haven't asked a question of, but I'm too lazy to double-check right now.

Quote

But mainly what I want to say is that I don't think voting him is really going to make a difference, but I can't make the argument that we shouldn't vote him because of, you know, the lurking bit. I don't want to see yet another day 1 town lynch due once again to a lack of participation (if he's actually scum, though, that will blow my mind, along with being a terrible scum tactic) but it's your vote, in any case.

There are two primary schools of thought on D1 and the lynch.

One is that a "no lynch" vote is worse than any other option, because even a mis-lynch feeds the Town information.

The other is that an uninformed lynch is just as bad, or worse, than "no lynch" because it generally kills Town.

Which view do you subscribe to?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

So again I’ll be teaching you how I post things. Since this has come after my first “Read-straveganza” it’ll be a little different. The top-most section will be the summary of my previous case. The center will be my reads since my last “Read-a-palooza”. The bottom will be the summary of my read over-all. Let’s get started.

---

Spoiler: Jembot (click to show/hide)

I have had no direct interaction with Jembot thus far. He has finally started posting however. So let’s see what I can find:

---

Quote from: Jembot on December 30, 2013, 10:45:00 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Jembot - You're the doctor, and after seeing someone scumhunting in a very powerful and effective way, you protect them, and nobody dies in the night. Do you now support their decisions and try to back them up? How would you go about this without it seeming like buddying?

[1]I wouldn't believe their every word, but in most cases in which I don't know anything else about that specific person as compared to the person who they are trying to lynch, I would be inclined to believe them. If they tried to lynch someone I wouldn't just hump on the bandwagon immediately, I would make my mind up first, but all other things being equal I would be more likely to vote for who they are trying to lynch than some other lynchee. [2]If they someone tried to lynch them, I would then try to divert attention off them, and would not vote for them unless they did something extremely scummy. I wouldn't just jump to their defense immediately, but start questioning a few other players and see if I can get focus peoples suspicions on them and not on the (most likely) town.

[1] This is a very bad idea. Strong scumhunting doesn't mean they're not wrong. I've done strong scum-hunting that has led to town deaths. This sort of thing happens. Strong scumhunting is a town-tell but not much else on its own.

[2] Oh? What if the other player's case is strong? What exact questions would you try to ask to deflect the blame? Odds are that if someone is voting someone else there is a good game reason for it. How do you account for these contingincies?

Quote from: Jembot on January 01, 2014, 03:18:28 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Jembot: You're scum. Your partner is radiating scumminess. Do you bus him or try to frame another person to save them?

Overall, I would probably not bus, as most people would expect the scum partner to bus in that situation, so bussing doesn't make me look any more town. I would try to look for inconsistencies in anyone else's actions and try to highlight those, or attempt to find a lurker and convince people that they are scum. If their were no inconsistencies or lurkers, I would probably bus if there was already a bandwagon on him, as that isn't really what you would expect scum to do in that situation.

You are aware that people don't magically know what you are doing is bussing right? We'd just see that you were voting for someone who is acting extremely scummy. In fact at that point it's safer to bus than it is to try to pin it on someone else. Also bandwgaoning is something you should NEVER do. If you don't have your own strong reasons to vote someone, vote somebody else. So long as it does not result in a tie.

---

Jembot, you are FAR too passive for my liking. You’ve not asked any questions or even attempted scum-hunting. You’ve answered questions directed at you but nothing else. Why are you trying to avoid attention?

Spoiler: Makeinu (click to show/hide)

I noted that Makeinu had only really interacted with Mastah and Persus. Let’s see if my fellow IC has branched out.

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 01:36:38 pm

*facepalm* I really must remember to preview. Broken tags bug me.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

Since it’s so early in the day I don’t really have much else to say but I do have a bit of a blanket question for EVERYONE:

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

Serial Killer, Ninja/Strongman

Sounds fun but I was talking about in this game.

Quote from: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:05:50 am

If he doesn't want to play, that's fine. But signing up, then not showing up while actively posting elsewhere is not cool. Especially in a BM, where the loss of one player to non-participation is very costly.

Yes, I personally wouldn't allow him in games if he keeps pulling this kind of stuff. Still doing it once doesn't mean he'll keep doing it. People get side-tracked. I'd prefer not to have to but... We might have to policy lynch here...

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 01, 2014, 04:22:55 pm

You know what was nice? Not my day at work. I'm entirely drained... I won't be able to post today I'm afraid.

Hi, Nerjin. Welcome to tomorrow. I hope that your day at work was better. I know that I hate bad days at work too.

Do you have any insights that you'd like to share with us today?

MyOwnWorstEnemy asked a question of you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4875515#msg4875515) that I'd love to hear an answer to. I have my own opinion, naturally, and I'd love to see how your thinking compares to mine.

I notice in your answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4871115#msg4871115) to mastahcheese's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4871020#msg4871020), you say:

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

I don't really pay attention to meta. 

Do you mean that in general, or in this game only? Why? Do you find that meta is not helpful in scum-hunting? Why?

Today was... Less fail-tacular than yesterday for sure but eh... Neither here nor there. I have several insights, see my big rant at the bottom for more details. But keep in mind that bolding a player's name is used to attract that player's attention to that spot. At first I thought you were referring to MOWE and MC and not me anymore.

To answer your question about Meta I don't EVER pay attention to it. It's not useful, to me, in scum-hunting either. Why? Well a skilled player uses Meta against their opponents. I for one have a very defeatist attitude when losing. Someone started pointing this out to me so I figured "Town's losing. Therefore I'll pretend to be super-bummed." and it won the game for me. It's VERY rude to think of your opponents as anything less than skilled. So I do not pay attention to Meta for that reason. It's a fickle technique at the best of times.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 04:38:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 04:13:03 pm

Makeinu: How's your Sinlessmoon vote going. Why are you voting him now given that that strategy utterly failed last game in terms of getting him to play?

Like shit, obviously, in terms of getting him to play... but I lack a better target for my vote right now, and we don't have another replacement lined up. Unless Imp can join, that is. So, policy lynch at this point.

Questioning and pressuring other players would certainly be a good thing to do then hm? Can’t just sit on our hands and wait for scum to out themselves man! Gotta get out there!

---

At least you’re playing the game. Your focus on Sinless is a bit of a waste of time though. Please try to go towards some more players.

Spoiler: Mastahcheese (click to show/hide)

I was pretty okay with Mastahcheese’s play overall. A misconception was the only thing I saw wrong. Let’s examine further however:

---

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 01:17:59 pm

Ah, right, I was thinking [Cop] also showed roles. I think there is one that can also see roles, but I don't remember the name of it.

Role-cop sees roles. We have that in this game but it's specifically a mafia role. Easy mistake to make.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 09:27:30 pm

Sinlessmoon: Your profile shows you as having been last active at 03:15:59 pm today, after this game started at 10:40:09 am, and you have yet to make your first reply. Please explain yourself.

Dude, life happens. Forum mafia is a fickle mistress. Sometimes you'll have to wait a long while to get answers.

---

You promised questions to others Mastahcheese, what are your reads? Day is getting along a bit too far to be dallying. Who do you suspect most?

Spoiler: MyOwnWorstEnemy (click to show/hide)

Since my last “Read-a-thon” she has started posting. So let’s get my first read on this lady shall we?

---

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 30, 2013, 02:29:24 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

I have no experience with mafia aside from reading a couple finished games and a [handsome] friend explaining the basics of the game to me.
 
As for the role, I'd choose doctor. I just think it could be the most beneficial to town, especially if there's a really strong town member hot on the scum's trail. Players like that need to survive as long as possible.

Fair enough. Though keep in mind that this won't always catch the scum's kill attempt. So if you [or anyone else for that matter] don't happen to stop the NK don't get discouraged. It can be hard to do.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Nerjin: In your opinion, why are so many BMs scum wins?

In short it's twofold: IC's can find it hard to tell the difference between a newblette mistake and a scum-slip. The players, on the other hand, tend not to really know what they're doing.
On a non-game related note there’s an entire thread discussing this issue elsewhere but I’ll leave that to the reader to decide whether they’re interested enough to do some homework or not.

---

MORE PRESSURE!!!! Come on kiddo! You’ve asked questions. Follow up on them! Who do you see as the most scummy so far?

Spoiler: Persus13 (click to show/hide)

All I had last time was wondering if they really needed another BM. They think so. I don’t. So I’m going to treat them as an equal. This is high honors. Let’s see what that nets us.

---

[Persus13 only answers questions and not in a way that I have anything specific to say]
How lovely!

Now how about you stop trying to avoid attention and actually start pressing cases! You’re better than this! You KNOW this is a bad idea! What’s up?

---

Suspicion definitely on the rise. PRESS A CASE if you would.

Spoiler: Pufferfish (click to show/hide)

This was another who hadn’t said anything the last time I did a read-through. Let’s see if they did anything substantive or if this fish is full of air… Eh? Eh?

---

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Pufferfish - What do you think was your biggest mistake in the last BM sprint game, where Persus and Tiruin won as scum? If you could go back, how would you have fixed it?

I probably would have not lynched anyone first turn and convinced all not to.

NO! Wrong! No-lynching is the absolute WORST move you can make. Mislynching is preferable as you LEARN something. What do you learn from no-lynching day one? Hm? Nothing at all! What does mafia gain? A free kill. Lynch is the towns ONLY weapon. Ignore that and we may as well just shorten EVERY day! NO-LYNCHING IS A FOOL'S GAMBLE!

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 31, 2013, 12:15:35 am

I forget, are you in Limerick?

...

Okay, exactly how many of you are playing in both games?

Irrelevant and non-important. Other games DO NOT EXIST when you are posting in this thread. Someone could be playing in sixteen other games but that's beside the point. How are they acting in this game is. So let's not focus on limerick or whatever. Let's focus on this one eh?

Quote from: Pufferfish on January 01, 2014, 07:51:48 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Pufferfish: It's down to three people: you, a fellow townie, and a scum. The scum has convinced your fellow townie that you are scum. What do you do?

Role claim the FUCK out of myself.

Unless the scum has. A counterclaim would look... Weird. I would be all like "but no."

In essence, everything I could to turn the vote against scummy scum. Like a townie should.

An interesting answer though the only one you could really give I suppose. How do you figure out which one is scum though? How do you know if the convincer is well-intentioned town or scum? How do you know if the convincee was really convinced or is simply scum hopping onto an opportunity?

---

I really have nothing else to add. Though I’m curious, are you going to follow up on the few questions you asked? Who is most scummy right now? SCUM-HUNT AND VOTE!

Spoiler: Superblackcat (click to show/hide)

EP left day 1 and so I’m just going to start fresh with SBC. I DON’T usually recommend this but all I had on EP was that he was considering replacing out.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 01:29:51 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on December 31, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

Superblackcat: Everyone's suddenly turning on a person you don't have a case on. What do you do?

I vote the second one to jump on the bandwagon.

What if they have good reasons? Do you still vote them? At what point do you consider the person they're voting is scum? Voting someone isn't a scum-tell. Voting someone without or with weak reasoning is. An example of weak reasoning? “You voted them second!”

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Extend


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Superblackcat:

How do you feel about replacing in for Elephant Parade?

Do you still feel that a BM serves to teach you anything?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

Simply voting someone as the 2nd or 3rd person proves little. Their reasoning has a LOT to do with it. As I said earlier.

---

Like a lot of others you need to ask questions on others and actually vote someone. Without asking questions we learn nothing and therefore we’re sitting ducks for scum.

Spoiler: Sinlessmoon (click to show/hide)

Nothing since the start of the game. You are a liability to town. If you get lynched then you deserve it Sinlessmoon. Either get in here and play or ask for a replacement!

Spoiler: My Rant to EVERYONE (click to show/hide)

Hello there. I am your IC. Therefore any failings on your part reflect on me. None of you are playing to your full potential. I know that you can all do better and that you just need a little push. You’re all new. I remember it well. I too was afraid of doing the wrong thing. Voting for the wrong person, however the amount of people simply hanging back is disappointing in itself. HOWEVER what is TRULY unacceptable is that NO ONE IS VOTING! Your vote is important to the game. Without your vote the scum will pick us off one by one! You need to get out there and HUNT! Ask questions! Apply pressure! THEN VOTE! Even if you mess up you’ll learn what you did wrong! You need to at least try!

I realize something I said earlier might be taken the wrong way. When I said your failings reflect on me I did not mean that it makes me seem like a poor teacher. What I meant is that I have been a very poor teacher. Please, get out there and hunt for the scum. Don’t worry about messing up. It happens to everyone. That’s what me and Makeinu are here for. To try to steer you better. But there’s only so much we can do if you do not try. All I’m asking if that you try a little harder okay? Please, just try.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 08:23:09 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 06:47:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 06:24:58 pm

makeinu: First off, you failed to ask me a question, I'm not saying this is scummy, I just feel left out.

I don't think you're the only one I haven't asked a question of, but I'm too lazy to double-check right now.

I'm not the only one, I just like having questions to answer.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 06:47:35 pm

But mainly what I want to say is that I don't think voting him is really going to make a difference, but I can't make the argument that we shouldn't vote him because of, you know, the lurking bit. I don't want to see yet another day 1 town lynch due once again to a lack of participation (if he's actually scum, though, that will blow my mind, along with being a terrible scum tactic) but it's your vote, in any case.
There are two primary schools of thought on D1 and the lynch.
-snip-
Which view do you subscribe to?

I'd say that a mis-lynch is better than a no-lynch, so I'll have to join you on that one.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

You promised questions to others Mastahcheese, what are your reads? Day is getting along a bit too far to be dallying. Who do you suspect most?

Yeah, I've been failing a good bit at the follow-up questions, I realize that now. I'll work on that.
But I'll go ahead and list my current reads.

•Superblackcat - I'm not understanding some of their reasoning behind some things, and I should really be doing better about questioning them, but I'm not getting a scum vibe from them. I think they're town.
•Sinlessmoon - Hasn't said a word. I dislike the "D1 policy lurker lynch" as a general principle, but it's wasting out time. I say Lurker.
•Jembot - Hasn't said a whole lot. Hasn't made much of an attempt to ask questions, either. I say slightly scum/absentee.
•Persus13 - Also not that active, but better than some, (this whole game seems to be rather... slow) I'd say town, but not sure.
•Pufferfish - I don't really have much of a read at all on pufferfish. Seems to be acting a little passive, to me. Not sure what to say.
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - Been asking questions, a bit. Although I'm rather guilty of this, myself. I'm leaning town, on this one.
•Nerjin - You're clearly doing a good job of pressuring us to try our best, most of your questions have been more-so oriented toward how we plan on playing the game, rather than the game itself, which seems to me like a very IC thing to do. You clearly are more concerned about the reason behind a BM then how well you fair in it. Leaning town, clearly IC.
•makeinu - You seem to be doing the best about follow-up questions, from what I can tell. And you're certainly trying to be a helpful IC. I think you're town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 08:47:00 pm

Nerjin: Sorry you're right, I do need to be more active, I've just been lazy and partly busy with RL stuff. Also, the slow pace of this game hasn't really helped, although I haven't really done anything about that, I guess I should.

Mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 08:23:09 pm

•Sinlessmoon - Hasn't said a word. I dislike the "D1 policy lurker lynch" as a general principle, but it's wasting out time. I say Lurker.
•Jembot - Hasn't said a whole lot. Hasn't made much of an attempt to ask questions, either. I say slightly scum/absentee.
•

So despite disliking lynching lurkers, you're two top scum picks are lurkers?

Jembot: Say you're the jailkeeper and you roleblocked a player. That night there's no scum kill. Next day, someone claims cop and says a third players scum. What would you do?

MOWE: What are your thoughts on No lynch D1 or a policy lurker lynch D1?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

Nerjin: hope you don't mind if I steal your style. Walls of text are hard to read and digest, and I'm still adapting to the bbcodes available here, which greatly exceed those I'm used to. The "spoiler" tag is very nice.

Spoiler: Nerjin (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

Sounds fun but I was talking about in this game.

In this game? Cop.

I like playing the hard roles. Cop is hard, because you can't just role-claim, kill the scum, and win. A role-claim will get you killed. So you have to play smart, communicate your finds via play, and role-claim as a last resort.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

I'd prefer not to have to but... We might have to policy lynch here...

I have to agree on both counts. I hate policy lynches on principle, but... lacking a solid lead on a target...

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

But keep in mind that bolding a player's name is used to attract that player's attention to that spot. At first I thought you were referring to MOWE and MC and not me anymore.

Ah, fair enough, still learning all the niceties of the unwritten rules here.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

To answer your question about Meta I don't EVER pay attention to it. It's not useful, to me, in scum-hunting either. Why? Well a skilled player uses Meta against their opponents. I for one have a very defeatist attitude when losing. Someone started pointing this out to me so I figured "Town's losing. Therefore I'll pretend to be super-bummed." and it won the game for me. It's VERY rude to think of your opponents as anything less than skilled. So I do not pay attention to Meta for that reason. It's a fickle technique at the best of times.

Excellent answer. Thank you. I find so few that think that way. On the other forum where I play, the scum plan frequently is "get rid of [list of players] because they're dangerous" and I hate that mentality.

Spoiler: Jembot (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

Quote from: Jembot on December 30, 2013, 10:45:00 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Jembot - You're the doctor, and after seeing someone scumhunting in a very powerful and effective way, you protect them, and nobody dies in the night. Do you now support their decisions and try to back them up? How would you go about this without it seeming like buddying?

[1]I wouldn't believe their every word, but in most cases in which I don't know anything else about that specific person as compared to the person who they are trying to lynch, I would be inclined to believe them. If they tried to lynch someone I wouldn't just hump on the bandwagon immediately, I would make my mind up first, but all other things being equal I would be more likely to vote for who they are trying to lynch than some other lynchee. [2]If they someone tried to lynch them, I would then try to divert attention off them, and would not vote for them unless they did something extremely scummy. I wouldn't just jump to their defense immediately, but start questioning a few other players and see if I can get focus peoples suspicions on them and not on the (most likely) town.

[1] This is a very bad idea. Strong scumhunting doesn't mean they're not wrong. I've done strong scum-hunting that has led to town deaths. This sort of thing happens. Strong scumhunting is a town-tell but not much else on its own.

[2] Oh? What if the other player's case is strong? What exact questions would you try to ask to deflect the blame? Odds are that if someone is voting someone else there is a good game reason for it. How do you account for these contingincies?

I want to add some further advice here, both as a player and as an IC.

[1] Not merely a bad idea, a terrible one. Good players will use strong scum-hunting as scum to throw Town off the rails. So, not only might they be wrong, they might be deliberately wrong, and you may not even realize it.

[2] Never try deflection on another player. Deflection is almost never effective when you're attempting to divert attention from yourself, and it just looks scummy when you're using it to defend someone else. If you're not going to role-claim as part of that deflection, then you're setting yourself up to look very bad.

---

Right now, I have a complete null read on you. You're showing that you are a new mafia player, very much so right now. That's understandable, but you need to be putting more effort forward to identify scum.

I'm going to tell you, frankly, that this lack of scum-hunting tends to make you look scummy. New players often fall into that trap in their first few games, especially if they draw scum in role assignment. The thinking goes, "I'm scum, so I'm safe so long as I stay below the radar."

Wrong.

You're safe so long as you're actively scum-hunting. You can be wrong at every turn, but you can't be quiet.

Spoiler: Superblackcat (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

[/list]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 09:06:03 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 08:47:00 pm

Mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 08:23:09 pm

•Sinlessmoon - Hasn't said a word. I dislike the "D1 policy lurker lynch" as a general principle, but it's wasting out time. I say Lurker.
•Jembot - Hasn't said a whole lot. Hasn't made much of an attempt to ask questions, either. I say slightly scum/absentee.
•

So despite disliking lynching lurkers, you're two top scum picks are lurkers?

I don't dislike lynching lurkers, I dislike the fact that there seems to be a trend in the games I've read where there's always a lurker on day 1 who ends up flipping town. But you can't not lynch them on the chance that they are actually scum trying to go under the radar.
That said, it's a necessary evil, and I dislike necessary evils, particularly when you could get more out of an active player.
I don't think Sinlessmoon is scum, but that's not a chance we can afford to make.
As for Jembot, I don't think he's lurking, as he's participating, just not very much. And even with the very slow pace of the game as it is right now, I tend to find myself barely noticing them. It feels like it's just enough to not be active-lurking, not so low that it draws suspicion, but not enough to be easily remembered. I've seen no attempt from them at trying to scumhunt, even with the most basic of attempts. They've been a very reactive force, and not an active one. I just get a scum vibe from them in general.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 02, 2014, 11:53:49 pm

Nerjin: *bows respectfully* Yes master!

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 06:24:58 pm

MyOwnWorstEnemy: One person was pressing very hard one another for scummy behavior, but the presser ends up getting killed in the night, and flips cop. What's your next plan of action?

Since a cop found it worthwhile to pursue this person and was promptly killed as a result, I think it's safe to say that the person is scum. I would then go back and look at this person's past to try to find some more solid evidence.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 08:47:00 pm

MOWE: What are your thoughts on No lynch D1 or a policy lurker lynch D1?

No lynch D1: no. Just no. All that does is give the mafia a free kill. The town gains nothing from it. Sure it's supposed to spare a townie, but the other town members gain valuable, SOLID information. They can use this knowledge along with the interactions this person had with others to root out the scum. And besides, there's always the chance that you'll lynch a scum.

Policy lynch: I don't like it, but it's necessary sometimes when the player doesn't contribute anything to the game. I think sometimes it's the only option. I really don't like it, but if I had to choose between no lynch and a policy lynch, I'd go policy.

My thoughts on everyone and my answer to Nerjin's question will come tomorrow. I'm sorry but posting on a phone is very draining. :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

Nerjin:
I don't want to quote your spoiler ;-;
 
I realized that I just created a large ass rant about scum hunting, and if anyone wants to read my take on it, and agree/disagree/bash. Go for it.

It should answer your question too Nerjin.

Spoiler: my way of scumhunting (click to show/hide)

Anyways, Let me clarify something. You don't vote someone because they voted 1st or 2nd or 3rd or whatever... But the order people votes in SURE AS HELL DRAWS MY ATTENTION.

I've played over 100 games... Obviously not here. Not on a forum, but on a much faster, reaction mafia site. Point being, a lot of the tells become of reactions more than explicit reasoning.

On a forum, these reactions become a lot lessened, because people reread and think about their posts, but they are still there. They may think. Oh I shouldn't vote 2nd because SBC just said this. or what not, but that's not the point. At day 2, people will forget, or when they are being pressured.

There are a lot of 'tells' that I notice from playing a lot of mafia on this site. (epicmafia.com if you guys want to check it out, great site), and sheeping is one of them. In my opinion, reasoning proves not too much, unless factual reasoning, because of bias.

Scum, more often than not, will give the correct reasoning, as opposed to their reasoning. This draws less attention, and scum tries to think how to make it so no one notices them, or dislike their answer. Townies care a lot less, and are much more happy to come out and say what they think. Many times, I've seen players go ballistic about what someone said. When that's what they think. It's not a scum tell, in fact, much more of a town tell.

For me, (This may be called paranoia), Someone who I suspect the least, without a good reason to do so, seems suspicious (If this makes sense). Especially on forums. On the mafia site, it's a lot of reactions, so it's a lot harder to formulate your response, on this forum, you formulate ALL of your responses... Therefore someone who manage to appear not scummy, without a good reason... seems incredibly scummy. This is because to appear so non-scummy, the player has to be nice, to almost everyone. They have to not speak their opinion about a lot of thins and 'go with the flow'. That's not a town move, that's a scum move.

This happened in two BM games so far. Towards d3 and d4 they seemed more scummy, but by then I was dead. >.>

Squill in the earlier BM, and Persus in BM Sprint. Both of them did this. Both of them were scum.

A big part that I disagree with is the emphasis on 'reasoning'. I don't think we are trying to reason who is scum, we are looking for anomalies, things that aren't human-like. Things that appear weird, or appear weird not appearing weird. This show us scum, because of the amount of pretending a scum person has to do, they start to create an anomaly. For example... On d2 of sprint, I saw an anomaly, Scum would have stacked votes by now, considering top vote was only 2 players, if who we were voting were scum. But instead, nothing happened. I commented on it, I was absolutely correct, but I didn't act on it, and lost.

Yay for wall of text!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:50:03 am

Argghhh Read over the last two posts... >: C


mastah, any questions, please ask!

Makeinu, So if you are scum, and given my reasoning, how do you think you will vote? How much wifom would you use off of my reasoning?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:50:03 am

Makeinu, So if you are scum, and given my reasoning, how do you think you will vote? How much wifom would you use off of my reasoning?

Assume I'm scum, and I know your scum-hunting, it's the same as if I didn't. When I am posting in the forum, I'm Town.

I'm not pretending to be Town. I am Town.

What you describe is the concept of the Uncanny Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley).

Spoiler: Uncanny Valley (click to show/hide)

The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers. Examples can be found in the fields of robotics,[1] 3D computer animation,[2][3] and in medical fields such as burn reconstruction, infectious diseases, neurological conditions, and plastic surgery.[4] The "valley" refers to the dip in a graph of the comfort level of humans as subjects move toward a healthy, natural human likeness described in a function of a subject's aesthetic acceptability.

The term was coined by the robotics professor Masahiro Mori as Bukimi no Tani Genshō (不気味の谷現象) in 1970. The hypothesis has been linked to Ernst Jentsch's concept of the "uncanny" identified in a 1906 essay, "On the Psychology of the Uncanny".[5][6][7] Jentsch's conception was elaborated by Sigmund Freud in a 1919 essay entitled "The Uncanny" ("Das Unheimliche").[8]

Turns out, people don't like robots that become too human, because they're close, but not close enough. We react the same way to physical and mental deficits, subconsciously. That's what happens when scum try to come off as Town, instead of just playing the game as they would if they were Town. They seem off because they are off.

Remember where I said earlier that lies are easy to tell, but hard to tell convincingly?

Well, they're not hard to tell convincingly when they're not lies. So, as scum, either get the Town lying to itself, or, simply, be Town, and then you're not lying.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 04:31:02 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:50:03 am

Argghhh Read over the last two posts... >: C
mastah, any questions, please ask!

I have questions, but I just realized I stayed up until 4:30 in the morning playing X-COM, so I'll be back!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

The main reason that I haven't done much so far is simply lack of time, had a big new years. I've got a bit more spare time now, so I'm going to get out there and scum hunt.

Questions-
Mastahcheese- You are town and are at L-1, but haven't really done anything particularly scummy. Do you claim or do anything townish, or just hope someone else does something scummy to take attention off you?
Superblackcat- You are cop, and night 1 you get a read on a player that says scum. What do you do?
Pufferfish- What would you prefer to be, vanilla townie or vanilla scum? Why?
Makeinu- It's day one, and you have narrowed your lynching choices down to 2. One has been acting very scummy, but the other has only posted once. Do you lynch the likely scum, or policy lunch the lurker? Why?
MOWE- You are Vig, and it is night 1. You have no real reads on anybody. Do you take a shot in the dark, or kill nobody that night?
Persus- You are scum, and someone claims cop and calls you scum. What do you do?
Nerjin- As an IC, what would you say is the number one mistake made by new players, either scum or town?

As to Persus's question (can't quote my phone is fucking up)
I would probably just leave it, and wait to see what the third players reply is, and just vote how I would if I was vanilla townie. I would go back and look for prior evidence of scumminess, and decide what to do based on if he looked scummy or not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

The main reason that I haven't done much so far is simply lack of time, had a big new years. I've got a bit more spare time now, so I'm going to get out there and scum hunt.

Being busy is fine. Life has a way of doing that. You don't need to tell us you're "going to get out there and scum hunt" now that it's slowed down for you. That's expected. But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Who are your top scum leads? Town? What has given you pause yet?

Quote

Makeinu- It's day one, and you have narrowed your lynching choices down to 2. One has been acting very scummy, but the other has only posted once. Do you lynch the likely scum, or policy lunch the lurker? Why?

Scum lynch. Always scum lynch.

Policy lynch for lurkers is a last-ditch, I've-got-nothing-else, tactic. Yes, lurking looks scummy, already been over that, but lurking isn't by itself a scum-tell.

You need to bringing more to the game, here. The Town needs you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 12:45:08 pm

Jembot: Do I get a doc? A protector of sorts?

(If yes, I push for the vote, if no, I soft claim).

Also. On forums, I go by the policy to never lurk lynch. Lurkers on forums are rarely mafia if they lurk from the start.

Sinlessmoon: CAN YOU STOP PMing TIRUIN AND POST HERE? OR IS THAT TOO HARD FOR YOU? YOU MIGHT WANT TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE... SOMETHING THAT'S NOT CALLED MAFIA. STOP RUINING OUR GAMES!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on January 03, 2014, 12:56:43 pm

THe game is not ruined. It's simply spoiled slightly by truancy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 12:59:31 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 03, 2014, 12:56:43 pm

THe game is not ruined. It's simply spoiled slightly by truancy.

*puts on Drama Queen hat*

No! It's ruined! Just like that cake that got left out in the rain!


I was gonna eat that cake... but now I don't want any!

*dances away*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 01:52:34 pm

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

Scum, more often than not, will give the correct reasoning, as opposed to their reasoning. This draws less attention, and scum tries to think how to make it so no one notices them, or dislike their answer. Townies care a lot less, and are much more happy to come out and say what they think. Many times, I've seen players go ballistic about what someone said. When that's what they think. It's not a scum tell, in fact, much more of a town tell.

I think that calling it a "town tell" might be a bit of a stretch, as I've heard that some people literally don't even check their inbox until the 1st night begins, so they have perfect ignorance of their own alignment. If they are scum, even they don't know it, if they have a role, they are completely unaware of it. Some people can gracefully ignore who they are, and just be themselves, as paradoxical as it sounds. I'll even use what Persus pointed out against me, saying that I dislike lynching lurkers, when me two biggest leads seem to be lurkers. Does that make me scummy? Am I a hypocrite? Or is it simply a misunderstanding? Actually, what do you think I am? What read do you get on me, now that I'm thinking of it?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

This happened in two BM games so far. Towards d3 and d4 they seemed more scummy, but by then I was dead. >.>

Squill in the earlier BM, and Persus in BM Sprint. Both of them did this. Both of them were scum.

Ok, answer me this, why do you think they acted more scummy later on? Were they slipping up? Did their words start to not add up anymore? Did they get over-confident? What was it?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

A big part that I disagree with is the emphasis on 'reasoning'. I don't think we are trying to reason who is scum, we are looking for anomalies, things that aren't human-like. Things that appear weird, or appear weird not appearing weird. This show us scum, because of the amount of pretending a scum person has to do, they start to create an anomaly. For example... On d2 of sprint, I saw an anomaly, Scum would have stacked votes by now, considering top vote was only 2 players, if who we were voting were scum. But instead, nothing happened. I commented on it, I was absolutely correct, but I didn't act on it, and lost.

What this seems to me is that you value someone's "gut" feeling about someone, more so than evidence, at least in the absence of verifiable evidence. If all I have going for someone is my gut feeling, is that as valid as having some sort of "proof" of a scum tell?

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

Ok, then, I'll ask the question for Superblackcat again. Why such an interest to what Superblackcat thinks about scum hunting?

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:50:03 am

Makeinu, So if you are scum, and given my reasoning, how do you think you will vote? How much wifom would you use off of my reasoning?

-snip-
Turns out, people don't like robots that become too human, because they're close, but not close enough. We react the same way to physical and mental deficits, subconsciously. That's what happens when scum try to come off as Town, instead of just playing the game as they would if they were Town. They seem off because they are off.

With that argument, you could make the claim that a scum-tell is in fact a town-tell due to the fact that real scum would never slip up like that. In that case, we shouldn't be hunting for people who slip up, we should hunt for people who don't, under the concept that they wouldn't allow themselves that slip. What's your opinion of this analysis?

Jembot:

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

Mastahcheese- You are town and are at L-1, but haven't really done anything particularly scummy. Do you claim or do anything townish, or just hope someone else does something scummy to take attention off you?

Saying I'm town is meaningless. Honestly, I would probably just let myself get killed, but make sure to question the heck out of people's motives before I go. Being vanilla town means that you don't have to survive, sometimes the information gleamed from your death can be used to give the rest of the town a chance. I wouldn't be there anymore, but my impact would be lasting. Which is more important to you? Self preservation, to hunt scum yourself, or knowledge that can be used by your fellow townsmen?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:03:13 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 01:52:34 pm

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

Scum, more often than not, will give the correct reasoning, as opposed to their reasoning. This draws less attention, and scum tries to think how to make it so no one notices them, or dislike their answer. Townies care a lot less, and are much more happy to come out and say what they think. Many times, I've seen players go ballistic about what someone said. When that's what they think. It's not a scum tell, in fact, much more of a town tell.

I think that calling it a "town tell" might be a bit of a stretch, as I've heard that some people literally don't even check their inbox until the 1st night begins, so they have perfect ignorance of their own alignment. If they are scum, even they don't know it, if they have a role, they are completely unaware of it. Some people can gracefully ignore who they are, and just be themselves, as paradoxical as it sounds. I'll even use what Persus pointed out against me, saying that I dislike lynching lurkers, when me two biggest leads seem to be lurkers. Does that make me scummy? Am I a hypocrite? Or is it simply a misunderstanding? Actually, what do you think I am? What read do you get on me, now that I'm thinking of it?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:35:04 am

This happened in two BM games so far. Towards d3 and d4 they seemed more scummy, but by then I was dead. >.>

Squill in the earlier BM, and Persus in BM Sprint. Both of them did this. Both of them were scum.

Ok, answer me this, why do you think they acted more scummy later on? Were they slipping up? Did their words start to not add up anymore? Did they get over-confident? What was it?

Mastahcheese: I don't have a tell on anyone, much less someone who's posted less than 10 times...

Persus won the game, but he was scummy because the voting action wasn't correct in the last 10 minutes...

Squill was attacked after people realized that he managed to evade attention for such a long time, and in the end... Well I'm not actually so sure what happened in the end. I do believe town won by pure luck, and Imp basically gave up, voted at random, and voted correctly... (I really should read the 50 pages of the BM game).

Gut feeling is valued as much as evidence, role evidence exempt. Role evidence is the best evidence, and will always be... Unless we start adding naive, fool, paranoid, cops and stuff into games.

(Which isn't in this game).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 01:52:34 pm

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

Ok, then, I'll ask the question for Superblackcat again. Why such an interest to what Superblackcat thinks about scum hunting?

Why? Because you don't have any questions of your own to ask?

I want to understand SBC's scum-hunting for the same reason I want to understand everyone's. If I'm stuck in a lynch-correctly-or-lose scenario, I want to know if I can trust him to be able to make the right decision, or if he's going to fly off half-cocked, chasing a whim, because he's been off in NeverNeverLand this whole time.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:50:03 am

Makeinu, So if you are scum, and given my reasoning, how do you think you will vote? How much wifom would you use off of my reasoning?

-snip-
Turns out, people don't like robots that become too human, because they're close, but not close enough. We react the same way to physical and mental deficits, subconsciously. That's what happens when scum try to come off as Town, instead of just playing the game as they would if they were Town. They seem off because they are off.

With that argument, you could make the claim that a scum-tell is in fact a town-tell due to the fact that real scum would never slip up like that. In that case, we shouldn't be hunting for people who slip up, we should hunt for people who don't, under the concept that they wouldn't allow themselves that slip. What's your opinion of this analysis?

I think you're over-thinking it.

Here's the thing: Town doing real scum-hunting often look like scum because they're not nice about it. They jump to conclusions, they point fingers at random or with no fact-basiss to back it up, they say stupid stuff, they contradict themselves.

In short: they're human.

What SBC described was perfectly the Uncanny Valley. He described scum being so careful to tend their words and deeds that they did none of those things above, because they know they're scum, and they don't want to look scummy.

But real players don't play that way, unless their new or naive or just bad at playing. Some players have very obvious scum-tells as part of their meta (see, Nerjin, it does play some value, even if it's a terrible thing to assume your fellow combatants are stupid). One player I know refuses to lie. She's horrible scum, feels guilty about it, because the whole thing violates her entire ethos. One game she was an investigator, she got an entire role-claim, in private, and refused to share it with those she actually had cleared and trusted because she promised she'd keep it secret.

Most players aren't that obvious. What looks like a good scum-tell, or a scum-slip, might just very well be them actively engaging in scum-hunting, or it might be a genuine tell, but without a Cop investigation, you'll never know, will you?

So, stop thinking so hard. Just pick a glass and drink the damn wine, because both glasses are poisoned, and the other guy's immune.

And ask your own questions. ;)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Unvote

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Why? Because you don't have any questions of your own to ask?
-snip-
So, stop thinking so hard. Just pick a glass and drink the damn wine, because both glasses are poisoned, and the other guy's immune.
And ask your own questions. ;)

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer? If it's sitting right in front of me, completely untouched, does that mean I should take it up myself?
What you're suggesting is that I voluntarily limit the amount of weapons and tactics I use to hunt scum with, and not only is that an incredibly bad idea, it's advice that I, personally, would never give to someone.
If you have a weapon, you'd better freaking use it, whether it's someone else's or not. And I can guarantee that I'm not the only one who feels that way, calling someone out on failing to answer a question isn't lazy, it's called scumhunting, where you find where they slip up, and act on it.
So tell me, makeinu, why would you have me limit the amount of weapons at my disposal? Are you trying to make me an ineffective scumhunter? Why are you dodging questions in the first place?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer?

I fail to see how I failed to answer his question.

Of course, I also apparently fail to see what prompted that question in the first place, except that I questioned why he would go along with the assertion that #2 must be scum in this scenario:

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

And I stand by my reasoning there. Assuming that the first vote is attention-getting and therefore Town is faulty logic and lazy scum-hunting. The players holding scum roles are people too, and people don't do what you expect them to.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:07:39 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer?

I fail to see how I failed to answer his question.

Then how come you didn't mention this before answering my repeat of it?
If you had answered the question in the first place, then you shouldn't have tried to criticize me for repeating it, you should have pointed me to the original answer, but you didn't, because they wasn't an original answer, and you knew that.

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

Of course, I also apparently fail to see what prompted that question in the first place, except that I questioned why he would go along with the assertion that #2 must be scum in this scenario:

You don't need a prompt, you ask questions to find scum. That's all the prompt you need, and nothing more is needed. Period.
And you even provide an example of a prompt yourself! The assertion in the scenario! You're already contradicting yourself without even a period in-between the points.

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

And I stand by my reasoning there. Assuming that the first vote is attention-getting and therefore Town is faulty logic and lazy scum-hunting. The players holding scum roles are people too, and people don't do what you expect them to.

You've already outlined exactly how scum should act, according to you, ironically, in your own words, like you say they won't do. You've basically been displaying actions as the polar opposite of how you say scum should act.
You say that scum act like robots, being too perfect and careful, so you make sure to fill your posts with your own writing style, and pump it up with your little smiley face to make you seem friendly.
Quite frankly, you seem to be radiating scummyness to me right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 03:12:42 pm

SBC:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:03:13 pm

Persus won the game, but he was scummy because the voting action wasn't correct in the last 10 minutes...

Actually, I had the correct voting action for scum as I was voting a town player. And I had been consistently voting the two people I had said I believed to be scum (one was my scumbuddy) and got the town one lynched. I think you're blowing the failure of scum to stack bigger than it is. Tiruin and I were focusing on appearing town in that game more than assuring a quick win (it didn't help that I was at school when the day ended). In another game I played, two scum players voted a third scum player at the beginning of the day, and that scum player was eventually lynched. And the scum could've won that day if they had lynched a townie. The scum won two days later because the two players who bussed their teammate lost a lot of suspicion from that, and because a town player sided with a fourth scum player who got counterclaimed, resulting in both getting lynched. The whole point of this is that many times scum will care more about looking town than going for a win. Scum can always play for time, if necessary, in order to appear less suspicious.

That's not to say how people vote doesn't matter, it can. There's a whole thread  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.0)devoted to whether statistics determine who scum or town players are. But, enerally as other people have stated, you also have to look at the reasons behind the vote. Accounting for RVS votes, or voting someone you want them to answer something or post are uses of votes that shouldn't factor into the equation.

Jembot:

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

Persus- You are scum, and someone claims cop and calls you scum. What do you do?

It depends on the situation. One thing I'd try to do is distance myself from the other scum players. Then, depending on the setup and how the vote lies, I either counterclaim him or say that since I'm town, he must be wrong somehow, and look for things that are scummy about him.

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Why are you telling him not to RVS? Last I checked no one really had any scum picks and no one has appeared to be acting scummy. I'd say that now is fine to RVS. I did a similar thing with Jembot and MOWE. Why didn't you have a problem with that?

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Some players have very obvious scum-tells as part of their meta (see, Nerjin, it does play some value, even if it's a terrible thing to assume your fellow combatants are stupid). One player I know refuses to lie. She's horrible scum, feels guilty about it, because the whole thing violates her entire ethos. One game she was an investigator, she got an entire role-claim, in private, and refused to share it with those she actually had cleared and trusted because she promised she'd keep it secret.

You keep bringing this up a lot. So this one player was really bad at being scum, as you yourself say, not everyone's like that and no one here is. So why do you keep bringing this one example up?

Mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 09:06:03 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 08:47:00 pm

Mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 08:23:09 pm

•Sinlessmoon - Hasn't said a word. I dislike the "D1 policy lurker lynch" as a general principle, but it's wasting out time. I say Lurker.
•Jembot - Hasn't said a whole lot. Hasn't made much of an attempt to ask questions, either. I say slightly scum/absentee.
•

So despite disliking lynching lurkers, you're two top scum picks are lurkers?

I don't dislike lynching lurkers, I dislike the fact that there seems to be a trend in the games I've read where there's always a lurker on day 1 who ends up flipping town. But you can't not lynch them on the chance that they are actually scum trying to go under the radar.
That said, it's a necessary evil, and I dislike necessary evils, particularly when you could get more out of an active player.
I don't think Sinlessmoon is scum, but that's not a chance we can afford to make.
As for Jembot, I don't think he's lurking, as he's participating, just not very much. And even with the very slow pace of the game as it is right now, I tend to find myself barely noticing them. It feels like it's just enough to not be active-lurking, not so low that it draws suspicion, but not enough to be easily remembered. I've seen no attempt from them at trying to scumhunt, even with the most basic of attempts. They've been a very reactive force, and not an active one. I just get a scum vibe from them in general.

If you find someone who is scummier than Sinless, who would you rather lynch?

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:07:39 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

And I stand by my reasoning there. Assuming that the first vote is attention-getting and therefore Town is faulty logic and lazy scum-hunting. The players holding scum roles are people too, and people don't do what you expect them to.

You've already outlined exactly how scum should act, according to you, ironically, in your own words, like you say they won't do. You've basically been displaying actions as the polar opposite of how you say scum should act.
You say that scum act like robots, being too perfect and careful, so you make sure to fill your posts with your own writing style, and pump it up with your little smiley face to make you seem friendly.
Quite frankly, you seem to be radiating scummyness to me right now.

What's your case on Makeinu besides the fact that he's acting the opposite of what you would expect?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:23:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 03:12:42 pm

If you find someone who is scummier than Sinless, who would you rather lynch?

Well, I think my new vote on makeinu speaks for itself at this point.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 03:12:42 pm

What's your case on Makeinu besides the fact that he's acting the opposite of what you would expect?

He's telling us to do stuff that would make un ineffective scumhunters, he told me not to use other people's questions, you even got on him yourself on his comments about RVS at this stage.
He keeps going on about how scum should act, seemingly to me to draw attention to it. If it looks like you're trying to help people find scum, then you look town, but he isn't helping.
And who in their right mind would tell someone to not think hard in Mafia? He's trying to criticize people for what are very common techniques, and that's not right.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:29:25 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:07:39 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer?

I fail to see how I failed to answer his question.

Then how come you didn't mention this before answering my repeat of it?
If you had answered the question in the first place, then you shouldn't have tried to criticize me for repeating it, you should have pointed me to the original answer, but you didn't, because they wasn't an original answer, and you knew that.

Incorrect. My answer to his question was what prompted his question, namely that I called him out for lazy thinking in writing off he first lynch vote as automatically Town because it draws attention, without discounting the third, hammer, vote as Town because it actually draws more attention.

Which, the more I think of it, the lazier and more poorly thought out it seems.

Superblackcat, in that scenario, why exactly is #3 a scum vote when it's the most attention getting vote of the three? That violates your own logic in suspecting #2. Explain.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

And I stand by my reasoning there. Assuming that the first vote is attention-getting and therefore Town is faulty logic and lazy scum-hunting. The players holding scum roles are people too, and people don't do what you expect them to.

You've already outlined exactly how scum should act, according to you, ironically, in your own words, like you say they won't do. You've basically been displaying actions as the polar opposite of how you say scum should act.
You say that scum act like robots, being too perfect and careful, so you make sure to fill your posts with your own writing style, and pump it up with your little smiley face to make you seem friendly.

I should fill my posts with someone else's writnig style, perhaps? And I'm actually using far fewer smiley faces than I normally would here. I miss the ones I'm used to; they're much better at communicating sarcasm.  ::)

---

PPE:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 03:12:42 pm

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Why are you telling him not to RVS? Last I checked no one really had any scum picks and no one has appeared to be acting scummy. I'd say that now is fine to RVS. I did a similar thing with Jembot and MOWE. Why didn't you have a problem with that?

I'm asking him to be more specific. There's enough out there that there's no reason at this late in the day to be asking general, vague, questions of everyone.

Quote

You keep bringing this up a lot. So this one player was really bad at being scum, as you yourself say, not everyone's like that and no one here is. So why do you keep bringing this one example up?

One, she's my favorite example of meta-failure, and it's use in scum-hunting.

Two, just because you've heard it before doesn't necessarily mean everyone has.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:23:25 pm

And who in their right mind would tell someone to not think hard in Mafia? He's trying to criticize people for what are very common techniques, and that's not right.

I'm telling you not to over-think, mastahcheese, because over-thinking leads to thinking yourself in circles. It  also leads to bad cases of Confirmation Bias. That's advice to everyone as IC. There's a reason WIFOM is a meta in mafia games.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:39:31 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:29:25 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:07:39 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:52:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer?

I fail to see how I failed to answer his question.

Then how come you didn't mention this before answering my repeat of it?
If you had answered the question in the first place, then you shouldn't have tried to criticize me for repeating it, you should have pointed me to the original answer, but you didn't, because they wasn't an original answer, and you knew that.

Incorrect. My answer to his question was what prompted his question, namely that I called him out for lazy thinking in writing off he first lynch vote as automatically Town because it draws attention, without discounting the third, hammer, vote as Town because it actually draws more attention.

Which, the more I think of it, the lazier and more poorly thought out it seems.

Superblackcat, in that scenario, why exactly is #3 a scum vote when it's the most attention getting vote of the three? That violates your own logic in suspecting #2. Explain.

Don't try to change the subject back to the original question.
You say that he asked after you answered his question, and that is your answer? Either you answered his question before he even asked it, or he asked a second question (which HE DID) that you failed to answer, and that's why I brought it up.
And why, once again, would you not have me use someone else's questions, if you failed to answer them? All you say is that it's lazy, so it's better to ignore the fact that you're dodging the question, is what you're saying?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 03:47:10 pm

Persus:

Given that we were winning a vote on scum with 2 votes, and there were to scums left.. Would you have changed your vote? (especially on LYLO)

That is inherently impossible. Therefore, whoever we voted could NOT have been scum.

That's what I'm talking about... you felt safe that town was lynched, thus you stopped focusing on the game as much, and did your school and stuff. But if you weren't pretty sure you were going to win... you would always have this nagging feeling to come back to the thread and check if something changed or not.

Makeinu: please quote?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:49:05 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:29:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 03:12:42 pm

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Why are you telling him not to RVS? Last I checked no one really had any scum picks and no one has appeared to be acting scummy. I'd say that now is fine to RVS. I did a similar thing with Jembot and MOWE. Why didn't you have a problem with that?

I'm asking him to be more specific. There's enough out there that there's no reason at this late in the day to be asking general, vague, questions of everyone.

I want to amplify a bit here, as a player, on what I mean.

The general, vague, nature of Jembot's questions strikes me as a post generated by someone who hasn't actually gone through and read the thread before posting. Yet, that's nowhere indicated in his post, that he had not yet caught up on the thread. Quite the contrary, he takes the time to answer Persus' question to him, albeit with the excuse that he "can't quote" because his phone is "fucking up".

His questions aren't targeted, and this late in the game day, that's not scum-hunting. That's borderline active lurking, if not actually over the border.


PPE:

He asked me two questions. The first:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting?

needs no answer, for one, because why the hell wouldn't I have an interest in his scum-hunting? That's what we're here to do! And for two, was already answered by the question I asked him, namely, AGAIN, that he was being lazy in dismissing the first vote in the scenario posited to him.

And his second, I answered as flippantly as he asked it:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

So, where, exactly, is my failure to answer?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:56:40 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:49:05 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting?

needs no answer, for one, because why the hell wouldn't I have an interest in his scum-hunting? That's what we're here to do!

It doesn't matter if you think an answer is needed or not, you should have answered it anyway! If the answer to the question is obvious, then why did they ask it?
This answer that you gave me here? Why didn't you say so to begin with? Why was this so hard to get out of you that it took this whole time to hear it? If the answer was "duh" then why didn't you say it? Leaving a question unanswered is unacceptable.

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:49:05 pm

And for two, was already answered by the question I asked him, namely, AGAIN, that he was being lazy in dismissing the first vote in the scenario posited to him.

How does calling someone lazy answer their question?
I'm seriously asking this. Because I fail to see how it does.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 04:08:11 pm

QUOTE IT GODDAMN IT MAKEINU!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 04:10:51 pm

I think this is it, or at least part of it.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 04:17:59 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 03:47:10 pm

Persus:

Given that we were winning a vote on scum with 2 votes, and there were to scums left.. Would you have changed your vote? (especially on LYLO)

That is inherently impossible. Therefore, whoever we voted could NOT have been scum.

True

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 03:47:10 pm

That's what I'm talking about... you felt safe that town was lynched, thus you stopped focusing on the game as much, and did your school and stuff. But if you weren't pretty sure you were going to win... you would always have this nagging feeling to come back to the thread and check if something changed or not.

THat's not what I meant. I meant that day ended in that game three hours after I left for school, where the firewall prevents access to Bay12.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 04:26:36 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 04:08:11 pm

QUOTE IT GODDAMN IT MAKEINU!

Seriously, dude, blood pressure.

If you want me to quote something, ask, specifically. Yelling will get you NOWHERE!!

Nor will this:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 03:47:10 pm

Makeinu: please quote?

Quote what? Use quotes? That statement there communicates nothing to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 03, 2014, 04:31:11 pm

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

MOWE- You are Vig, and it is night 1. You have no real reads on anybody. Do you take a shot in the dark, or kill nobody that night?

I assume that means vigilante. If I had absolutely no suspicions, I'd just wait. Two people are going to get killed regardless of what I do and I could gain valuable information from this so that when I do decide to kill, I'd have a better chance of killing scum.

So, Jembot, what was the point of asking someone who has virtually no experience with mafia a question about a role that isn't in this game? Are you trying to appear actively hunting when you've no reason to be?

I know I promised to post my thoughts on everyone today, but my thoughts are becoming a wall of text that I am NOT posting on my phone (which I should mention is my only internet access at home). I'll have internet access on a computer tomorrow and it shall be done ere the setting of the sun.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 04:48:08 pm

I have no idea what you were talking about... the post before that...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 03, 2014, 07:21:41 pm

Why hello there everyone! I've been pretty busy, so in order to make up for that suspicious behavior; you can ask me any question you would like.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 08:08:00 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 03, 2014, 07:21:41 pm

Why hello there everyone! I've been pretty busy, so in order to make up for that suspicious behavior; you can ask me any question you would like.

I recommend reading through the thread. There's been plenty of questions for you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 08:42:45 pm

makeinu:
Would you like to answer my questions, now?

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:56:40 pm

-snips-
[1]Why didn't you say so to begin with? [2]Why was this so hard to get out of you that it took this whole time to hear it? [also 1]If the answer was "duh" then why didn't you say it? Leaving a question unanswered is unacceptable.
-snippity-
[3]How does calling someone lazy answer their question?
I'm seriously asking this. Because I fail to see how it does.

This is at least the second, maybe third time I've asked [1], and no, saying that "it was obvious that's what was meant" doesn't count, they clearly wanted you to be specific.

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 04:48:08 pm

I have no idea what you were talking about... the post before that...

I think he's been referring to way back about the question of the third and first person who voted for a lynch turn on the second, and your answer in regards to it, but I'm not sure as to the exact part of the argument, as there are now many parts and he won't specify.

Sinlessmoon:
Persus pretty much said it perfectly.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 08:08:00 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 03, 2014, 07:21:41 pm

Why hello there everyone! I've been pretty busy, so in order to make up for that suspicious behavior; you can ask me any question you would like.

I recommend reading through the thread. There's been plenty of questions for you.

I really hope you try asking some questions of your own, as well. Perhaps after reading through you'd like to list your thoughts on everyone's behavior?

MyOwnWorstEnemy:
I wait with baited breath on that wall of text.
I would also ask that in it, you detail your current reads on everyone.

Jembot:
You are continuing to be rather inactive, would you please explain what has been holding you up?

Nerjin:
May I request that you provide two things for us?
[1] An in-character read on everybody.
[2] An IC assessment on everyone's progress.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 04, 2014, 07:45:23 am

I'm going to be gone for the next 30 hours out camping, so don't expect me to be posting.

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 04, 2014, 03:21:00 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

I would attempt to get them just a tiny bit active, not so much as to arouse suspicion; but to placate peoples opinions about them.

I haven't seen enough to properly determine someone to lynch so...

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 04, 2014, 07:00:09 pm

Alright. Here it is. The Wall o' Text! It's not as thorough as I'd like, but circumstances prevented me from having adequate time to organize my thoughts

Spoiler: Nerjin (click to show/hide)

Not really much to say at this point. It seems like every single post of yours has been geared towards helping others. You snuck a few of your suspicions into your assistance. I don’t and won’t have anything on you until you start really playing. I've read another game where you were an IC and you don’t seem to be the kind of person to use your title as an IC to hide.

Spoiler: makeinu (click to show/hide)

Very active. Like any good IC, you spend time helping others. Your first show of aggression was toward someone who hadn’t posted yet. Because you're an IC, I'll assume that this was an attempt to pressure Sinlessmoon into playing.

---

Also, I’m curious as to why he jumped in on the question I asked Nerjin.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Nerjin:
[...]
MyOwnWorstEnemy asked a question of you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4875515#msg4875515) that I'd love to hear an answer to. I have my own opinion, naturally, and I'd love to see how your thinking compares to mine.

You were so curious about his answer, yet never commented when he did answer. Why is this? And if you were so curious as to how your opinion matched up to his, please enlighten me on your opinion.

---

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 01:52:34 pm

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

Ok, then, I'll ask the question for Superblackcat again. Why such an interest to what Superblackcat thinks about scum hunting?

Why? Because you don't have any questions of your own to ask?

I want to understand SBC's scum-hunting for the same reason I want to understand everyone's. If I'm stuck in a lynch-correctly-or-lose scenario, I want to know if I can trust him to be able to make the right decision, or if he's going to fly off half-cocked, chasing a whim, because he's been off in NeverNeverLand this whole time.

I think this is a good idea, but why aren't you concerned about all of our scum hunting techniques or lack thereof? Why are you getting so defensive?

---

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:56:40 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:49:05 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting?

needs no answer, for one, because why the hell wouldn't I have an interest in his scum-hunting? That's what we're here to do!

It doesn't matter if you think an answer is needed or not, you should have answered it anyway! If the answer to the question is obvious, then why did they ask it?
This answer that you gave me here? Why didn't you say so to begin with? Why was this so hard to get out of you that it took this whole time to hear it? If the answer was "duh" then why didn't you say it? Leaving a question unanswered is unacceptable.

Even if the answer is obvious to you, makeinu, is it too much trouble to answer the question without so much fuss?

---

All in all, I'd label you as town leaning scum. My gut is telling me that there's something off about you, but right now, its just a gut feeling.

Spoiler: Jembot (click to show/hide)

For a while, all you did was answer questions. Is it so hard, though to think up one or two questions or comment about other people's answers?

---

Quote from: Jembot on December 30, 2013, 10:45:00 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Jembot - You're the doctor, and after seeing someone scumhunting in a very powerful and effective way, you protect them, and nobody dies in the night. Do you now support their decisions and try to back them up? How would you go about this without it seeming like buddying?

I wouldn't believe their every word, but in most cases in which I don't know anything else about that specific person as compared to the person who they are trying to lynch, I would be inclined to believe them. If they tried to lynch someone I wouldn't just hump on the bandwagon immediately, I would make my mind up first, but all other things being equal I would be more likely to vote for who they are trying to lynch than some other lynchee. If they someone tried to lynch them, I would then try to divert attention off them, and would not vote for them unless they did something extremely scummy. I wouldn't just jump to their defense immediately, but start questioning a few other players and see if I can get focus peoples suspicions on them and not on the (most likely) town.

Why would you still be suspicious of this person?

---

.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 03, 2014, 04:31:11 pm

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

MOWE- You are Vig, and it is night 1. You have no real reads on anybody. Do you take a shot in the dark, or kill nobody that night?

I assume that means vigilante. If I had absolutely no suspicions, I'd just wait. Two people are going to get killed regardless of what I do and I could gain valuable information from this so that when I do decide to kill, I'd have a better chance of killing scum.

So, Jembot, what was the point of asking someone who has virtually no experience with mafia a question about a role that isn't in this game? Are you trying to appear actively hunting when you've no reason to be?

If you indeed have time to play now, please respond and explain to me why in the world you asked that question. What could you possibly hope to gain from this? As I said before, this seems scummy. Almost like you're trying to appear to be scum hunting when you're really not.

---

Jembot, I find you the scummiest person by far. You were last active this morning at approximately 1:30. I posted my accusation yesterday at 4:30 in the afternoon. What's the issue?

Everyone I missed, I'll get to later. My major suspicions are spelled out. Luck has just not been on my side lately... :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 04, 2014, 09:27:53 pm

Dang it, I was really hoping more people would post.

I still await the finishing of your post, MOWE, thanks for what you gave so far, although I can't think of anything to question in what you've given.

Sinlessmoon: I was really hoping for some more participation from you, also please quote when you can, I can see from the dot in the list that you must have copy-pasted my question, but quotes are preferred.
I'm sure that there is much more than just my question that needed your attention, please find those when you can, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt right now and assume you're short on time when you wrote that, but we could really use more participation from you. And that goes for you as well, Jembot.

Extend, we need more time. I was thinking before I joined this that this would be going too fast for me to keep up, I'm quite disappointed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 04, 2014, 09:53:44 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 04, 2014, 09:27:53 pm

Sinlessmoon: I was really hoping for some more participation from you, also please quote when you can, I can see from the dot in the list that you must have copy-pasted my question, but quotes are preferred.
I'm sure that there is much more than just my question that needed your attention, please find those when you can, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt right now and assume you're short on time when you wrote that, but we could really use more participation from you.

Again, I apologize. The reason why it wasn't placed in quotation was because I went back to the beginning to check the questions that were asked towards me. From now on I will use only quotes and I'm planning on keeping this thread up with far more frequency.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 04, 2014, 10:32:49 pm

Getting cut off from B12 for a day or two feels like forever. Or felt like it anyways >_>

My excuse is valid however. Net here seems...on/off, more on the off, with sporadic intervals of 'very quick load times' to slower than molasses. :V

Everyone voting: Please don't put your votes In Spoilers. While I see everything (ie check everyone's plans and laugh evilly as a general rule), other people who may be skimming//Short on time may miss that vote--and thus, may misinterpret why it is 'hidden', to speak neutrally.

Anyways, votecount coming up. The extension (which was granted by the way, legitimately), hits the day off to Monday, 9pm. I noted several difficulties on my part with the timer (ie Forgetting to tick the 'stop countdown at 0' and 'Actually, the 9:00 is 9:00am. 21:00' is what I want)...

So update coming soon! With markers!

Addendum-edit: I like how Orange stands out in both primary forum formats. :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 04, 2014, 10:59:49 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on January 04, 2014, 10:32:49 pm

Everyone voting: Please don't put your votes In Spoilers. While I see everything (ie check everyone's plans and laugh evilly as a general rule), other people who may be skimming//Short on time may miss that vote--and thus, may misinterpret why it is 'hidden', to speak neutrally.

Ah. Sorry about that... the thought never occurred to me.
To be completely clear, my vote is currently on Jembot for reasons stated in my previous post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 04, 2014, 11:15:17 pm

I'm counting it~

Will be right up with flavor and stuffs.  :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

*spoils the vote count* :P

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 04, 2014, 07:00:09 pm

Very active. Like any good IC, you spend time helping others. Your first show of aggression was toward someone who hadn’t posted yet. Because you're an IC, I'll assume that this was an attempt to pressure Sinlessmoon into playing.

Also, I’m curious as to why he jumped in on the question I asked Nerjin.

You were so curious about his answer, yet never commented when he did answer. Why is this? And if you were so curious as to how your opinion matched up to his, please enlighten me on your opinion.

Ah, yeah, sorry, I forgot to comment on that question. I was interested in his answer as an experienced IC.

I think I agree with his assessment, that many BM games are scum victories, largely because the players are new. I haven't read back on a lot of them, but I'd wager it's uncommon for the scum team to be solely composed of new players, and that, plus the fact that there's often a dedicated scum IC who's not playing at all, gives the scum team a decided edge over the Town.

The one other BM I played in had two experienced players on the scum team, and, while the rest of us weren't pure novices, we weren't all that comfortable/familiar with Bay12 protocols.

The other answer is behind the spoiler, because I wanted to leave the quotes in place, and it's really long.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 01:52:34 pm

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:28:47 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

Ha ha, no.

Ok, then, I'll ask the question for Superblackcat again. Why such an interest to what Superblackcat thinks about scum hunting?

Why? Because you don't have any questions of your own to ask?

I want to understand SBC's scum-hunting for the same reason I want to understand everyone's. If I'm stuck in a lynch-correctly-or-lose scenario, I want to know if I can trust him to be able to make the right decision, or if he's going to fly off half-cocked, chasing a whim, because he's been off in NeverNeverLand this whole time.

I think this is a good idea, but why aren't you concerned about all of our scum hunting techniques or lack thereof? Why are you getting so defensive?

---

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:56:40 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 03:49:05 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting?

needs no answer, for one, because why the hell wouldn't I have an interest in his scum-hunting? That's what we're here to do!

It doesn't matter if you think an answer is needed or not, you should have answered it anyway! If the answer to the question is obvious, then why did they ask it?
This answer that you gave me here? Why didn't you say so to begin with? Why was this so hard to get out of you that it took this whole time to hear it? If the answer was "duh" then why didn't you say it? Leaving a question unanswered is unacceptable.

Even if the answer is obvious to you, makeinu, is it too much trouble to answer the question without so much fuss?

Sometimes, getting defensive, and especially putting off answering a question as the asker becomes more agitated, works for me as a scum-hunting tactic, passively pushing the other person instead of actively doing so. Any source of stress can be the impetus to force a break in a facade.

---

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 08:42:45 pm

makeinu:
Would you like to answer my questions, now?

Sure. Let's have a lesson and some fun.

Quote

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 03:56:40 pm

-snips-
[1]Why didn't you say so to begin with? [2]Why was this so hard to get out of you that it took this whole time to hear it? [also 1]If the answer was "duh" then why didn't you say it? Leaving a question unanswered is unacceptable.
-snippity-
[3]How does calling someone lazy answer their question?
I'm seriously asking this. Because I fail to see how it does.

This is at least the second, maybe third time I've asked [1], and no, saying that "it was obvious that's what was meant" doesn't count, they clearly wanted you to be specific.

Answer to [1] and [2]: because I wanted to see if he'd press the matter himself. He didn't, which obviates the end of your statement above: he clearly did not want me to be specific, else he'd have pushed the matter himself.

The answer to [3] is in the spoiler.

Spoiler: Exposition (click to show/hide)

Jumping in to answer someone's question is widely (here) considered bad form because it interjects you into the answer chain before the target has a chance to answer for themselves. This gives the target some breathing room, and a possible answer to build from, for a question that they might have been careless in answering themselves, and diverts the attention away from them.

Likewise, I consider it bad form to interject yourself into a question/answer chain the other way, because it takes away from the asked the ability to pressure their inquisitor via not answering. Aside from it being lazy scum-hunting to appropriate someone else's questions, it actively interferes with MY scum-hunting when I can't pressure SBC to try to force an answer out of me.

Quote

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 04:48:08 pm

I have no idea what you were talking about... the post before that...

I think he's been referring to way back about the question of the third and first person who voted for a lynch turn on the second, and your answer in regards to it, but I'm not sure as to the exact part of the argument, as there are now many parts and he won't specify.

I am referring specifically to the post mastahcheese quoted above.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 04:10:51 pm

I think this is it, or at least part of it.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

You stated that you consider first and last votes on a lynch target to be attention-getting votes, which scum will avoid doing because they don't want to draw attention to themselves, yet, in that scenario, you specifically go along with the persons placing both the first and last votes, your suspicion-drawing votes, and jump on the middle child as suspicious, while ignoring both that first vote!

It seems to me that you're just jumping on the idea of second and third votes as "sheeping", or band-wagoning (I presume you to mean, since sheeping carries rather a different distinction to me), and ignoring your own claims as to what makes a vote suspicious.

Either your internal logic is faulty, or you're slipping, trying to keep your scum-hunting straight and failing.

That makes me suspicious, Superblackcat. And that is why I ignored that question. So that you would press it. And you didn't, which only serves to reinforce my suspicions.

---

Sinlessmoon, you're off my hook for now, but this lurking had better stop. Please, start bringing the 'A' game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 12:30:46 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

You stated that you consider first and last votes on a lynch target to be attention-getting votes, which scum will avoid doing because they don't want to draw attention to themselves, yet, in that scenario, you specifically go along with the persons placing both the first and last votes, your suspicion-drawing votes, and jump on the middle child as suspicious, while ignoring both that first vote!

It seems to me that you're just jumping on the idea of second and third votes as "sheeping", or band-wagoning (I presume you to mean, since sheeping carries rather a different distinction to me), and ignoring your own claims as to what makes a vote suspicious.

Either your internal logic is faulty, or you're slipping, trying to keep your scum-hunting straight and failing.

That makes me suspicious, Superblackcat. And that is why I ignored that question. So that you would press it. And you didn't, which only serves to reinforce my suspicions.

---

Sinlessmoon, you're off my hook for now, but this lurking had better stop. Please, start bringing the 'A' game.
[/quote]

Nice one, Makeinu. Nice one... (Yay for what seems like OMGUS)

You are suspecting me, because you don't like the way I scumhunt? And this parameters are given so loosely, there are NO parameters...

Why didn't I follow up on my question? Because it wasn't a question to start with, it was sarcastic, and a poke at you. You didn't answer, mastah follows up on you... and you just push everything away at me like it was a plan? Good try.

I assumed there were more than 3 people voting btw.

Also you give me no information... you gave me - 2nd person votes, 1st and 3rd jumps... So I give you.. "I become suspicious of all 3, but more of the 3rd than 2nd."... I'll add (Than 1st) too.

This is because no one on this forums plays like how I play. Or I haven't met any of them yet... If they jump on the second with my reasoning, it seems goddamn scummy to me. It doesn't fit with their meta.

3rd more than the 1st because hammer is more useful than starter... And they both draw the same amount of attention. Maybe the hammer a bit more since it's more recent.

But I really don't like how you deflected it as 'It was always my plan'. That's bullshit. You don't do that in mafia, you do that in war.

FFS

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 12:31:56 am

That came out wrong!

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 12:30:46 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

For the second question: I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

You stated that you consider first and last votes on a lynch target to be attention-getting votes, which scum will avoid doing because they don't want to draw attention to themselves, yet, in that scenario, you specifically go along with the persons placing both the first and last votes, your suspicion-drawing votes, and jump on the middle child as suspicious, while ignoring both that first vote!

It seems to me that you're just jumping on the idea of second and third votes as "sheeping", or band-wagoning (I presume you to mean, since sheeping carries rather a different distinction to me), and ignoring your own claims as to what makes a vote suspicious.

Either your internal logic is faulty, or you're slipping, trying to keep your scum-hunting straight and failing.

That makes me suspicious, Superblackcat. And that is why I ignored that question. So that you would press it. And you didn't, which only serves to reinforce my suspicions.

---

Sinlessmoon, you're off my hook for now, but this lurking had better stop. Please, start bringing the 'A' game.

Nice one, Makeinu. Nice one... (Yay for what seems like OMGUS)

You are suspecting me, because you don't like the way I scumhunt? And this parameters are given so loosely, there are NO parameters...

Why didn't I follow up on my question? Because it wasn't a question to start with, it was sarcastic, and a poke at you. You didn't answer, mastah follows up on you... and you just push everything away at me like it was a plan? Good try.

I assumed there were more than 3 people voting btw.

Also you give me no information... you gave me - 2nd person votes, 1st and 3rd jumps... So I give you.. "I become suspicious of all 3, but more of the 3rd than 2nd."... I'll add (Than 1st) too.

This is because no one on this forums plays like how I play. Or I haven't met any of them yet... If they jump on the second with my reasoning, it seems goddamn scummy to me. It doesn't fit with their meta.

3rd more than the 1st because hammer is more useful than starter... And they both draw the same amount of attention. Maybe the hammer a bit more since it's more recent.

But I really don't like how you deflected it as 'It was always my plan'. That's bullshit. You don't do that in mafia, you do that in war.

FFS

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 05, 2014, 12:36:44 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

Sinlessmoon, you're off my hook for now, but this lurking had better stop. Please, start bringing the 'A' game.

*points at OP*

Quote

Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.

*caps the orange marker*

My work is finished.

...

Now to return to that votecount. >:I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 05, 2014, 12:47:03 am

Quote from: Tiruin on January 05, 2014, 12:36:44 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

Sinlessmoon, you're off my hook for now, but this lurking had better stop. Please, start bringing the 'A' game.

*points at OP*

Quote

Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.

*caps the orange marker*

My work is finished.

...

Now to return to that votecount. >:I

I can't promise super long posts, but I definitely will try and make my posts informative and stuff.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 01:29:28 am

Let's break this down more, then. Since the quote pyramid is apparently confusing you.

The original question posed to you:

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Your initial reply:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

My original question to you:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

And I still want to understand why, in that case, you completely disregard any suspicion for the first person to vote the townie lynch and jump on suspicion of the second more than anything else, despite your own logic that the first vote in that scenario is, by definition, the most suspicious! Because it draws the most attention.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

Giving credence to my counter-claim:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

Which you never even address.

And then you deflect my concerns:

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

You stated that you consider first and last votes on a lynch target to be attention-getting votes, which scum will avoid doing because they don't want to draw attention to themselves, yet, in that scenario, you specifically go along with the persons placing both the first and last votes, your suspicion-drawing votes, and jump on the middle child as suspicious, while ignoring both that first vote!

It seems to me that you're just jumping on the idea of second and third votes as "sheeping", or band-wagoning (I presume you to mean, since sheeping carries rather a different distinction to me), and ignoring your own claims as to what makes a vote suspicious.

Either your internal logic is faulty, or you're slipping, trying to keep your scum-hunting straight and failing.

That makes me suspicious, Superblackcat. And that is why I ignored that question. So that you would press it. And you didn't, which only serves to reinforce my suspicions.

By saying:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 12:31:56 am

Why didn't I follow up on my question? Because it wasn't a question to start with, it was sarcastic, and a poke at you. You didn't answer, mastah follows up on you... and you just push everything away at me like it was a plan? Good try.

You didn't mean it. It wasn't a real question.

It was a good try, because it worked. It revealed that you aren't really scum-hunting here.

Quote

I assumed there were more than 3 people voting btw.

That, and that alone, I will concede. However,

Quote

Also you give me no information... you gave me - 2nd person votes, 1st and 3rd jumps... So I give you.. "I become suspicious of all 3, but more of the 3rd than 2nd."... I'll add (Than 1st) too.

This is important, so listen carefully. The original question was not mine! AND you got the whole scenario wrong. Repeating:

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Tell me, does that read even remotely like what you wrote about the scenario just above here?

Quote

This is because no one on this forums plays like how I play. Or I haven't met any of them yet...

People on epicmafia apparently play by not reading the thread, from what I'm gathering, because this is a pattern with you. Your meta, if you will. You consistently don't read the thread and have no idea who is saying what.

Tell me, is that natural? Or is it something you only do when you're scum?

Quote

3rd more than the 1st because hammer is more useful than starter... And they both draw the same amount of attention. Maybe the hammer a bit more since it's more recent.

Waitwaitwait... You can't keep your story straight in one post!! You assume that more than three were voting, but the third vote is suspicious because hammer, but your main suspicion is on the second for "sheeping" (by which I still assume you mean band-wagonning)??

Quote

But I really don't like how you deflected it as 'It was always my plan'. That's bullshit. You don't do that in mafia, you do that in war.

All conflict is the same. The same techniques apply no matter the paradigm. Read Sun-Tzu.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Jembot on January 05, 2014, 06:10:05 am

I apologise for by lurking thus far, I've been on holidays but I get back tomorrow arvo, at that point I will post a wall of text with all my suspicions thus far

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 11:54:02 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 01:29:28 am

Let's break this down more, then. Since the quote pyramid is apparently confusing you.

The original question posed to you:

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Your initial reply:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 01, 2014, 05:28:41 pm

I start to become suspicious of all three, but more so of the third person than the second.

My original question to you:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Why would you be suspicious of the second person in that scenario, but not the first?

And I still want to understand why, in that case, you completely disregard any suspicion for the first person to vote the townie lynch and jump on suspicion of the second more than anything else, despite your own logic that the first vote in that scenario is, by definition, the most suspicious! Because it draws the most attention.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 02, 2014, 04:02:49 pm

Because scum does not like drawing attention to themselves... Voting first/last draws attention. Sheeping 2nd or 3rd usually draws way less attention, that's why I become suspicious of the 2nd or 3rd.

Giving credence to my counter-claim:

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 08:51:34 pm

To my mind, that scenario screams of scum railroading on voter 2. It's a perfect setup scenario, because of thinking like yours here.

Which you never even address.

And then you deflect my concerns:

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 11:30:51 pm

You stated that you consider first and last votes on a lynch target to be attention-getting votes, which scum will avoid doing because they don't want to draw attention to themselves, yet, in that scenario, you specifically go along with the persons placing both the first and last votes, your suspicion-drawing votes, and jump on the middle child as suspicious, while ignoring both that first vote!

It seems to me that you're just jumping on the idea of second and third votes as "sheeping", or band-wagoning (I presume you to mean, since sheeping carries rather a different distinction to me), and ignoring your own claims as to what makes a vote suspicious.

Either your internal logic is faulty, or you're slipping, trying to keep your scum-hunting straight and failing.

That makes me suspicious, Superblackcat. And that is why I ignored that question. So that you would press it. And you didn't, which only serves to reinforce my suspicions.

By saying:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 12:31:56 am

Why didn't I follow up on my question? Because it wasn't a question to start with, it was sarcastic, and a poke at you. You didn't answer, mastah follows up on you... and you just push everything away at me like it was a plan? Good try.

You didn't mean it. It wasn't a real question.

It was a good try, because it worked. It revealed that you aren't really scum-hunting here.

Quote

I assumed there were more than 3 people voting btw.

That, and that alone, I will concede. However,

Quote

Also you give me no information... you gave me - 2nd person votes, 1st and 3rd jumps... So I give you.. "I become suspicious of all 3, but more of the 3rd than 2nd."... I'll add (Than 1st) too.

This is important, so listen carefully. The original question was not mine! AND you got the whole scenario wrong. Repeating:

Quote

Superblackcat: After a townie lynch, the first and third person to vote for them begin to place accusations on the second, what do you do?

Tell me, does that read even remotely like what you wrote about the scenario just above here?

Quote

This is because no one on this forums plays like how I play. Or I haven't met any of them yet...

People on epicmafia apparently play by not reading the thread, from what I'm gathering, because this is a pattern with you. Your meta, if you will. You consistently don't read the thread and have no idea who is saying what.

Tell me, is that natural? Or is it something you only do when you're scum?

Quote

3rd more than the 1st because hammer is more useful than starter... And they both draw the same amount of attention. Maybe the hammer a bit more since it's more recent.

Waitwaitwait... You can't keep your story straight in one post!! You assume that more than three were voting, but the third vote is suspicious because hammer, but your main suspicion is on the second for "sheeping" (by which I still assume you mean band-wagonning)??

Quote

But I really don't like how you deflected it as 'It was always my plan'. That's bullshit. You don't do that in mafia, you do that in war.

All conflict is the same. The same techniques apply no matter the paradigm. Read Sun-Tzu.

Alright, let me try, to break this down for you. Btw, if you bothered to go to epicmafia.com, you'd realize it's not a forum...

Makeinu, because my argument for scumhunting, thus far, have been, Scum doesn't like to draw attention... Correct? (You have this wrong, I think that drawing less attention = scum, if someone doesn't draw your attention et all, then he is quite scummy indeed, read please).

Now if that's a yes... What votes draw the MOST attention, given no reasoning is present.

I'd say, without thinking, at the end of the day, the person that - Hammers, and the person the started it... Correct?

Now, Given that the person that hammers it, actually condemns the person to death, while the person that started it doesn't, doesn't the person that hammers it have more power? Correct?

So, in my mind, scum does NOT like to start votes, they like to finish votes... Because other people will start votes.

At a point where, in this 7 person game, having 3 people voting you... makes you a high contender for the dungeon. (And 2 mafia). If the mafia can jump on a someone's vote, doesn't that help them condemn someone? In Actuality, I would think that the starter of a vote usually isn't scum, unless they feel they have enough 'evidence' to get people to jump on their BW.

They try to grab the second seat, because it encourages 'voting them isn't scary, other people are doing it'. At this point, usually, there are two main contenders for the dungeon. If someone else votes this person, it becomes quite easy for the last scum to jump in and hammer it, pulling any reason. Even without the second person, 3 person voting the same person makes it quite likely for them to die.

The problem with your thought of 'railroading on voter 2' is because I don't think bay12 have come to the place where they use these tells... much less over 'evidence' they get from people talking. Thus I don't worry about it. However, if it seems planned, I'm wary of it. Anything that seems coordinated is bad. Anything.

Quite sorry, I thought the question was yours, my bad. I forget these stuff, but it's quite fun arguing mechanics with you because you have a wider view of mafia. (more forums)

Quote

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 12:31:56 am
Why didn't I follow up on my question? Because it wasn't a question to start with, it was sarcastic, and a poke at you. You didn't answer, mastah follows up on you... and you just push everything away at me like it was a plan? Good try.

You didn't mean it. It wasn't a real question.

It was a good try, because it worked. It revealed that you aren't really scum-hunting here.

Um, Whaddya mean? I didn't really mean the question. I wasn't really expecting a real answer, so I wasn't really bummed when you didn't answer it. However, with mastah following up, and you start to become... defensive. And then... You push it to me.

Then when I point it out, you continue.. to push it to me. Nice. I must say, I may have not been scumhunting, but this is pretty damn coincidental, that you like pushing things off to people.. Usually scum does this.

And for you to do it twice in a roll.. Wow.

Also, if you want to know if it's natural for me to miss things

It's quite natural. I missed the setup for 2 weeks on my first BM... I thought it was 7/2 (In your mind 5:2) while it was 9/2 (In your mind, 7:2)

Alright... sheeping is voting someone purely for the reason someone else it voting that person. Bandwagoning is jumping on the BW.

2nd person is always suspiscious to me, but if 1st and 3rd attacks the 2nd person for being the 2nd person. Then It seems like someone read too much into what I wrote. Usually scum does that. 3rd has the hammer power so I'm more supiscious of him...

But I've never seen anyone on bay12 play like this, So I'm not worried.

Also, the reason why I called Bullshit is because

1) You don't use the time to plan out a battle, like war in mafia. You don't, or I've never seen you, or anyone, else go like. "I'm going to attack this person with this, if the deflect, X, if they whatever, Y." Never.

If this is your new playstyle... great? But I'm keeping an eye on you.

2) You don't post like this. This isn't you. You seem like you're hiding, running, and chucking smoke grenades behind to get away. That's scum. Not scummy, like you say.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 05, 2014, 02:56:50 pm

Makeinu: You're voting SBC for playing differences, missing things, and for lazy scumhunting.

Only the lazy scumhunting thing is something I see as a scumtell, and SBC's "question" did seem like a sly poke at you more than anything else. the fact you've been deflecting mastahcheese's concerns and didn't really answer the question yet claim you thought it was a real question don't really help your case.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 11:54:02 am

<snip>

Thank you! Finally! An explanation of things that makes sense, and some indication that you're paying attention.

Unvote.

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Btw, if you bothered to go to epicmafia.com, you'd realize it's not a forum...

I had never seen epicmafia.com, nor did I bother to check it, I'll confess. That format seems... weird. I understand better your thing with not reading back. That, by the way, doesn't work on forum mafia.

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So, in my mind, scum does NOT like to start votes, they like to finish votes... Because other people will start votes.

See, in my mind, scum does like to start votes, because no one expects them to. They rely on the WIFOM factor, that no one will expect it, to get away with it. Honestly, in that scenario exactly as posed, there's no way to discern who might be scum without further evidence.

I mentioned once before, in another game here, a situation very similar to this this that developed in a game I ran. Two scum left at MyLo (5:2, in your parlance). Scum voted first on a target that they'd built suspicion on, waited for Town to sheep onto the second vote, then dropped the hammer and won the game.

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1) You don't use the time to plan out a battle, like war in mafia. You don't, or I've never seen you, or anyone, else go like. "I'm going to attack this person with this, if the deflect, X, if they whatever, Y." Never.

Then I'd suggest you look more carefully, because I see it all the time. If you're not planning strategy, then you're flailing, and that does no one any good.

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If this is your new playstyle... great? But I'm keeping an eye on you.

Not new playstyle. Comfortable, old, playstyle.

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2) You don't post like this. This isn't you.

As I pointed out to Persus in Limerick, by what do you judge me here? The handful of games I've played on Bay12, I'll wager, and by that, please, explain how this is "not me"? I could quote that, if you'd like, but of the four games here so far, every one of them has had something unique for me to set them apart:

1) Sprint BM, a new forum and a new format I've never seen, with rules I've never seen. Remember, I'm used to forum mafia where PMs are a normal, integral, part of play, and quoting the GM, even with faked roles, is strategy.

2) Paranormal, a semi-open, power-madness game where nothing is apparently predictable.

3) This, where I'm both learning and playing as an IC.

4) Limerick. Finally! a normal g.... *reads JK9++ setup* Fuck! Don't you people play any normal games here? (and here's where I'd normally insert the LOL smiley, but Bay12 doesn't have one *sigh* )

Right now, I have only vague reads on anyone. These are my top scum leads in no particular order.

Pufferfish: Would you care, as well, to bring some game to the table? Four posts, and the holidays are comfortably past now.

Sinlessmoon: You're still lurking, but at least you've bothered to show up this time. Are you going to play, or shall we seek a replacement? Or policy lynch because the day is close to over? I won't go the "last time" route with you, because that's drawing meta into it, and I'd rather not do that.But, as I say to Jembot, this looks like you want others to find suspicion for you instead of on you.

Jembot: As I said before, I'm looking forward to some more specific questions from you, this late in the day. This is your first mafia game, in this format, correct? What you're doing now looks very much like scum play.

Tiruin: waitaminnit... *checks* okay, you're off the hook... this time! ;)

---

Persus: I never, honestly, took SBC's question as real, though I did wonder what exactly his point was. When mastahcheese pressed it, I saw an opportunity to squeeze them both with a response and see what came out. I'm pleased with what I saw. Though, in SBC's case, it was like getting blood from a stone.

You read that as deflection. I read that as strategy. Three moves ahead. Finding Town is just as important as finding scum, hopefully to ensure the wrong person isn't lynched. Surely you understand the value in that?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 04:12:04 pm

Makeinu, Please, Don't put Lurker's as a scumtell, at least not yet. Look for actual scum. Anyone can see lurkiness, but killing someone for lurkiness, especially with a ML, is dumb.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 04:39:54 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 04:12:04 pm

Makeinu, Please, Don't put Lurker's as a scumtell, at least not yet. Look for actual scum. Anyone can see lurkiness, but killing someone for lurkiness, especially with a ML, is dumb.

???

And here I thought it was Bay12 meta that even a mislynch on D1 was useful. And so far most of what I see is lurkiness.

Your play baffles me, I'll be honest, though it's clearer now. Marginally. It still looks largely scummy from a forum-mafia standpoint.

Persus has already demonstrated he effectively knows how to play scum.

Nerjin... wait... yeah, also mostly lurking. Nerjin! What's up there? You have game, I've seen it, are you bringing it?

The rest are newbs, and it's harder to pick newb-slips from scum-slips than you might think in this format.

Here's an idea: instead of tunneling, why don't you follow your own advice? That most recent post of yours exceeds the rest of your posts in thread all by itself! Are you going to engage in any scum-hunting, or are you going to ask others to do your thinking for you again?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 05:15:25 pm

Makeinu, I'm happy to ML...

I'm not happy to use it on a lurker. WHy? Because we don't get any information. EVEN IF WE ARE RIGHT.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 05:29:18 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 05:15:25 pm

Makeinu, I'm happy to ML...

I'm not. Ever.

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I'm not happy to use it on a lurker. WHy? Because we don't get any information. EVEN IF WE ARE RIGHT.

Role-flip, so we get at least that. Better to mislynch an active player, if it happens, because then there's other things to analyze, but that still counts for something.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 05, 2014, 07:10:17 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

Sinlessmoon: You're still lurking, but at least you've bothered to show up this time. Are you going to play, or shall we seek a replacement? Or policy lynch because the day is close to over? I won't go the "last time" route with you, because that's drawing meta into it, and I'd rather not do that.But, as I say to Jembot, this looks like you want others to find suspicion for you instead of on you.

No, I'm still here. Just keeping an eye on the proceedings since I don't really know in what fashion I should be taking part in. :P

This is one of my first full mafia games that I can spend time on, which means I'm not really sure how I should structure my posts in order to create long posts with any form of significance.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 05, 2014, 07:28:45 pm

Jembot:

Quote from: Jembot on January 05, 2014, 06:10:05 am

I apologise for by lurking thus far, I've been on holidays but I get back tomorrow arvo, at that point I will post a wall of text with all my suspicions thus far

I'll be waiting for that wall of text.

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

As I pointed out to Persus in Limerick, by what do you judge me here?
-snip-
I could quote that, if you'd like,
-snip-

Actually, makeinu, I for one would perhaps like to see that quoted, as I am not following Limerick. I'm doing my part to stick to this game, and this game only.

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

Persus: I never, honestly, took SBC's question as real, [1] though I did wonder what exactly his point was. When mastahcheese pressed it, I saw an opportunity to squeeze them both with a response and see what came out. [2] I'm pleased with what I saw. Though, [3] in SBC's case, it was like getting blood from a stone.

You read that as deflection. I read that as strategy. Three moves ahead. [4] Finding Town is just as important as finding scum, hopefully to ensure the wrong person isn't lynched. Surely you understand the value in that?

[1] Then you should have pressed it, if you have a question you ask your freaking question! Your business of being passive, waiting for the other person to respond, is a scum-tactic. Activity is scum hunting, being passive and calling it what would amount to "town-hunting" is not what town should do, it sounds exactly like a deflection.

[2] Could you please elaborate on this, if you would? What exactly are you seeing here?

[3] From my perspective, it seemed to me that it was more of SBC drawing blood out of you. You repeatedly failed to quote, up to the point where I actually went back to the proper place, and then you didn't even quote from me, but rather made mention to what I had quoted above. I fail to see how this was so painful for you, as, if I remember correctly, you even got on SBC, and told them to calm down, and that ALL-CAPS gets you nowhere.

[4] While I can't argue the importance of knowing who is town, don't you think you should put just a little but more effort on finding scum, rather than "town-hunting" and wasting our time on you?
Actually, this quote sums it pretty nicely.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 04:12:04 pm

Makeinu, Please, Don't put Lurker's as a scumtell, at least not yet. Look for actual scum. Anyone can see lurkiness, but killing someone for lurkiness, especially with a ML, is dumb.

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 04:39:54 pm

And here I thought it was Bay12 meta that even a mislynch on D1 was useful. And so far most of what I see is lurkiness.

A mislynch, is never as valuable as a scum lynch.

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 05, 2014, 07:10:17 pm

No, I'm still here. Just keeping an eye on the proceedings since I don't really know in what fashion I should be taking part in. :P

This is one of my first full mafia games that I can spend time on, which means I'm not really sure how I should structure my posts in order to create long posts with any form of significance.

Don't just watch, participate.
Even if you aren't sure of what you're doing, try.
Don't worry about the format so much, just divide it up by which person you're talking to, and make your questions stand out.
You'll see I've put names before their segment, and bolded it to draw attention, and then when I have multiple questions, I number them, try something like that. But don't just sit by and watch everyone else. If you have a question, ask it. If you want clarification, say so. If you just want to impart your view on a situation, do so.
Some people have been saying to not get in the way of other people's questioning, but everyone's input serves a purpose, so put yours out there.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 09:28:42 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 05, 2014, 07:28:45 pm

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

As I pointed out to Persus in Limerick, by what do you judge me here?
-snip-
I could quote that, if you'd like,
-snip-

Actually, makeinu, I for one would perhaps like to see that quoted, as I am not following Limerick. I'm doing my part to stick to this game, and this game only.

Not much different from what I posted here before, but here you go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: makeinu on January 04, 2014, 10:51:31 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2014, 04:09:52 pm

Makeinu: I really don't understand what's going on with you. Your play seems really strange

As compared to what, exactly?

A BM on a new forum that presents me with a completely new play style and play/communication restrictions, in a format I've never seen before (Sprint), where I'm still learning the ropes?

A power madness game that's only as much an open setup as this one, in that possible roles are known, but not actual ones, where I stretched my legs a bit from the aforementioned BM and expressed myself?

A second BM where I'm having to moderate my play with an eye to both learn what this forum expects of an IC and provide said guidance at the same time?

If that's your comparison pool, and I suspect that's the limit, then I'd say you don't have a baseline to compare to to make a judgement of "strange" from. Even on my home planet, my fellow mafia-ers don't know what to expect out of me from one game to the next, though, so I suppose "strange" is my meta.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 03:41:22 pm

Persus: I never, honestly, took SBC's question as real, [1] though I did wonder what exactly his point was. When mastahcheese pressed it, I saw an opportunity to squeeze them both with a response and see what came out. [2] I'm pleased with what I saw. Though, [3] in SBC's case, it was like getting blood from a stone.

You read that as deflection. I read that as strategy. Three moves ahead. [4] Finding Town is just as important as finding scum, hopefully to ensure the wrong person isn't lynched. Surely you understand the value in that?

[1] Then you should have pressed it, if you have a question you ask your freaking question! Your business of being passive, waiting for the other person to respond, is a scum-tactic. Activity is scum hunting, being passive and calling it what would amount to "town-hunting" is not what town should do, it sounds exactly like a deflection.

Finding Town to avoid a mis-lynch is just as important, and a lot easier to do when you're otherwise busy. I've avoided mentioning it, but I've got a lot going on in real life right now. It may appear I've a lot of free time, but I don't; what I do have is being allocated here as much as I can afford.

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[2] Could you please elaborate on this, if you would? What exactly are you seeing here?

An actual explanation of anything from SBC, as I detailed.

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[3] From my perspective, it seemed to me that it was more of SBC drawing blood out of you. You repeatedly failed to quote, up to the point where I actually went back to the proper place, and then you didn't even quote from me, but rather made mention to what I had quoted above. I fail to see how this was so painful for you, as, if I remember correctly, you even got on SBC, and told them to calm down, and that ALL-CAPS gets you nowhere.

He also failed repeatedly to clarify what he wanted quoted! So, whatever. When I had the chance to figure it out, I did, once again doing the work for SBC, and then answered him. At length.

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[4] While I can't argue the importance of knowing who is town, don't you think you should put just a little but more effort on finding scum, rather than "town-hunting" and wasting our time on you?

Nobody's forcing you to spend any effort on any particular area of the game.

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 04:12:04 pm

Makeinu, Please, Don't put Lurker's as a scumtell, at least not yet. Look for actual scum. Anyone can see lurkiness, but killing someone for lurkiness, especially with a ML, is dumb.

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 04:39:54 pm

And here I thought it was Bay12 meta that even a mislynch on D1 was useful. And so far most of what I see is lurkiness.

A mislynch, is never as valuable as a scum lynch.

Value order of lynches:

1) scum
2) active town
3) lurker
4) no lynch

The first three actually give some information. SBC's claim seems to me to be that it's less valuable to lynch a lurker than it is to no lynch. Which is a terrible claim, most of the time. Yes, no lynch can be a strategic thing to do, but not on Day 1. Note, too, I NEVER said that a mis-lynch was more valuable than a scum lynch. That rates a "Duh!", thank you, and I'll also thank you not to put words in my mouth.

Now, I've listed my top scum reads (I'm borderline on SBC still, as he always seems sort of scummy to me).

Where's yours?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 09:32:33 pm

I said to ML, but not on lurkers! READ >:c

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 09:44:33 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 09:32:33 pm

I said to ML, but not on lurkers! READ >:c

Ironic advice, I love it.

Lynch All Lurkers is a policy-lynch in response to players who attempt to scum-lurk to avoid notice. I'm assuming that epicmafia doesn't have that problem, but forum mafia games frequently do. We have several, in case you haven't noticed.

You don't have to vote to lynch a lurker. I will, lacking a better target.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 05, 2014, 09:59:00 pm

BEcause on the 4 mafia games I've played thus far on this forum. Not once has a lurker been scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 10:01:52 pm

Aaaaaand, that would be because of the Lynch All Lurkers policy lynch. But dismissing that as an option gives scum the option to lurk to victory.

Got a scum-buddy that's lurking? Is that why you won't do it here?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 12:02:18 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 09:28:42 pm

Note, too, I NEVER said that a mis-lynch was more valuable than a scum lynch. That rates a "Duh!", thank you, and I'll also thank you not to put words in my mouth.

Now, I've listed my top scum reads (I'm borderline on SBC still, as he always seems sort of scummy to me).

Where's yours?

I could mention your very defensive, almost to the point of passive-aggressive tone, but I think it's been mentioned enough already.
I'll give you my reads.

Superblackcat: Seems to be very confused lately, but shown signs of paying attention. Clearly not used to forum-style mafia, but trying, none the less. Leaning town.
Sinlessmoon: Lurking. Lurking. Lurking. Mentioned that they don't know how to introduce themselves into the game. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're incompetent or clueless, but clearly needs help. Not sure if scumlurker or just noob.
Jembot: Been a bit more active, but not by much. Very passive stance, reactive, little actual action. Leaning scumlurker, but may just be overly busy/displaying lack of interest.
Persus13: Not as active as I tend to see in other games, seems to be taking a bit more of a back-up stance than an actual hunting role. But they called me out on what looked like hypocrisy at the time, so it gives me a bit of faith. Leaning town, wish they'd participate more.
Pufferfish: Now that I think of it, I keep forgetting they're playing in this game. Pufferfish, where are you at?
MyOwnWorstEnemy: Keeps promising walls of texts that continue to disappoint me with their lack of actually being there. May be active lurking, may be busy.
Nerjin: Also disappointing me with their lack of general participation, but Nerjin doesn't strike me as the lurking type, and I haven't seen them around other parts of the forum, either, so I'm assuming he's just busy. Really wish he could be here, though. Leaning town.
makeinu: The way you're acting just doesn't add up. Your stories don't add up. You say that you think something is a jest, but still wonder about it, and don't question it? You keep acting in ways that are far too passive, and keep trying to change the subject. I've mentioned all this before, you simply aren't acting right. I will be seriously shocked if you are town, because what you're doing would be the worst town tactic I've seen. I will not be convinced that you are town unless you flip. Period.

This game is giving me disappointment after disappointment about the sheer lack of participation, and it's not just one or two people, most of the people in this game should be a lot more active. There's only about 3-4 of us regularly posting, and it's saddening.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 06, 2014, 01:38:11 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 12:02:18 am

This game is giving me disappointment after disappointment about the sheer lack of participation, and it's not just one or two people, most of the people in this game should be a lot more active. There's only about 3-4 of us regularly posting, and it's saddening.

That I will unequivocally agree with...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 06, 2014, 06:46:47 am

So. Net cut out before I could post.

The day is mod-extended to Wednesday, ending at 9:00pm, GMT +8.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 12:02:18 am

This game is giving me disappointment after disappointment about the sheer lack of participation, and it's not just one or two people, most of the people in this game should be a lot more active. There's only about 3-4 of us regularly posting, and it's saddening.

[Disclaimer: This rant is oriented more towards those who don't care about telling anything beforehand and disappearing--or just plain missing without trying. It is a case of lacking voluntariness, dispelled by due diligence.

I am proud, however, to be writing for those who still choose to play and learn.]

Granted, my only excuse is lacking net--while overshadowed by the speed, I'm also at fault here for not updating as a primary priority, instead preferring RL.

However, if the game continues to be such, I'm more inclined to copy that state: No flavor, just blank nothingness. I had thought that chat will bloom and blossom; this is DAY ONE, and MOST BMs are double this page length! Normally, I'd just post down the votecount.

But I agree. Heavy prods incoming.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Nerjin on January 06, 2014, 07:03:36 am

Blugherfluggle... Gotta love busy times. Sorry folks, I'll be doing another 'read-stravaganza' sometime before the day [actual day, not game-day] ends. Thankfully you guys have finally started posting more so I'll have more to say.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:43:26 am

Quote from: makeinu on January 05, 2014, 10:01:52 pm

Aaaaaand, that would be because of the Lynch All Lurkers policy lynch. But dismissing that as an option gives scum the option to lurk to victory.

Got a scum-buddy that's lurking? Is that why you won't do it here?

Nope, just that I don't believe scum is lurking because of the lynch all lurkers policy. Since they still get lynched in the end. Or in some games. It's still much too risky for a scum to lurk. But they seem to be doing that this game... At least one of them.

I'd say active lurking is 10x more of an scumtell...
and for that.

Nerjin, you better stop.

Where is Jembot?

Sinless.... Be here.

and you too Persus

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

@mastahcheese: My only internet access at home is my phone. Hopefully that states your curiosity. I'll give my reads now, but it's going to be shorter than my previous attempt.

SBC: I find your theory...different. From what you've been arguing thus far, it seems like you're main thing is those uo look the most innocent are probably the guilty ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I see. That is sort of my way of thinking as well. I'm somewhat suspicious of you, but I don't think you're scum. Yet.

Jembot: Unvote. I'm not going to vote you for being busy, but I still have my eye on you.

Makeinu: Town hunting? No sir. Scum hunt town (in a way) and town hunt scum, finding town in the process. This stinks of scum.

Sinlessmoon: lurker. But not scummy. You seem to have a valid excuse. Fear is a powerful thing.
 
Mastahcheese: All you've done is hunt and push. You seem like the perfect townie. I've found no fault in your reasoning thus far. I'd say town.

Pufferfish: again, just not there. It's hard to form an opinion on someone who's not there.

Nerjin: Same as before.

Persus: Fairly active compared to most. I find this suspicious. It's almost like you're trying to be here while staying unnoticed. This being said, I have seen no strong indication that your scum.

It's not the wall I promised, but it's here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 04:59:22 pm

Wait, so I'm being attacked for lurking and for being active. What?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:43:26 am

I'd say active lurking is 10x more of an scumtell...
and you too Persus[/color]

Please state why I'm active-lurking when you throw out that accusation. I fail to see how two of the people you listed constitute as active lurking as Nerjin has repeatedly cited work issues for sparse posts. Jembot and Sinless are just plain lurking, although Jembot has cited reasons why he can't play as much.

MOWE:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

SBC: I find your theory...different. From what you've been arguing thus far, it seems like you're main thing is those uo look the most innocent are probably the guilty ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I see. That is sort of my way of thinking as well. I'm somewhat suspicious of you, but I don't think you're scum. Yet.

If this is what SBC's arguing, I'd definitely agree with him, sometimes. The goal of scum is to stay unnoticed and seem innocent. This doesn't always work.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Makeinu: Town hunting? No sir. Scum hunt town (in a way) and town hunt scum, finding town in the process. This stinks of scum.

Hunting someone and deciding their town is a perfectly legitimate strategy. I'll agree with you that makeinu seems scummy, but when you're becoming the third vote on a player you need better reasoning than this. Quoting generally helps your case too, unless you're making a false case.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Mastahcheese: All you've done is hunt and push. You seem like the perfect townie. I've found no fault in your reasoning thus far. I'd say town.

I'd agree with you that Mastahcheese seems to be good town. But keep in the back of you mind the possibility that he could be very good scum.
 

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Persus: Fairly active compared to most. I find this suspicious. It's almost like you're trying to be here while staying unnoticed. This being said, I have seen no strong indication that your scum.

I'm glad your suspicious of active players, but activity tends to be a null tell. If you are accusing me of active-lurking, which it seems like you are trying to say judging by your second sentence, then like SBC, I'd like you to back that up with quotes before you accuse me of being scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:43:26 am

Sinless.... Be here.

I am here, attempting to figure out what to say is a pretty hard thing as I'm not fully aware of how to use strategies. :P

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Sinlessmoon: lurker. But not scummy. You seem to have a valid excuse. Fear is a powerful thing.
 

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, I could very well be not scum. Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Persus: I remind you I'm posting from my phone virtually all of the time. Quoting posts of any length is very hard.  I feel makeinu is scummy based on what sounded to me like consciously trying to find town members instead of scum. Also, how he just decides to say he avoided SBC's question to see if he'd push the issue seems rather scummy.

Also, I understand SBC's strategy isn't the best and doesn't always work. I just find myself thinking this way.

I also understand hat mastahcheese is either really good town or really good scum, which I avoided saying, perhaps in a moment of stupidity, to lull them into a false sense of security so they might make a mistake. It seems I watch too many crime shows.  :P

As for you, did you miss the part where I said "I have no strong indication that you're scum"? If I'm going to accuse you, I'm going to have a better reason than "I think you're active-lurking."

Why so defensive?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Persus: I remind you I'm posting from my phone virtually all of the time. Quoting posts of any length is very hard.  I feel makeinu is scummy based on what sounded to me like consciously trying to find town members instead of scum. Also, how he just decides to say he avoided SBC's question to see if he'd push the issue seems rather scummy.

Oh, my bad, I forgot that you used a phone. In that case, I recommend linking to posts if you can and wish to point out something for future reference.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Also, I understand SBC's strategy isn't the best and doesn't always work. I just find myself thinking this way.

And I'd definitely agree with that. The only game I've been scum so far I won partly because I made myself look as town as possible. However, sometimes a scummy person that everyone's going after is actually scum, something I learned for myself fairly recently.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

I also understand hat mastahcheese is either really good town or really good scum, which I avoided saying, perhaps in a moment of stupidity, to lull them into a false sense of security so they might make a mistake. It seems I watch too many crime shows.  :P

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

As for you, did you miss the part where I said "I have no strong indication that you're scum"? If I'm going to accuse you, I'm going to have a better reason than "I think you're active-lurking."

I saw that, I just thought the fact that you were accusing me of being active seemed inconsistent with your comment on Mastahcheese being active and good town.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Why so defensive?

I attack other people's attacks all the time. This one just happened to be directed at me.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, I could very well be not scum. Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

While it's true that scum tend to be fairly active (I'm more interested and invested in a game when I'm scum, for example), scum's goal is often not to get noticed. Sometimes this means lurking. Lurkers are also annoying to have around as lack of activity can kill a game or make a scum win easier. It also causes town to have less information about that player.

Anyway, if you had to vote this second, who would it be on?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on January 06, 2014, 06:46:47 am

Granted, my only excuse is lacking net--while overshadowed by the speed, I'm also at fault here for not updating as a primary priority, instead preferring RL.

However, if the game continues to be such, I'm more inclined to copy that state: No flavor, just blank nothingness. I had thought that chat will bloom and blossom; this is DAY ONE, and MOST BMs are double this page length! Normally, I'd just post down the votecount.

But I agree. Heavy prods incoming.

Just for the record, I personally really like reading the flavor you've been adding to the game. It makes it a much better read.
That said, I will upload pictures of spiders if you stop writing them because I know it bothers you.[/sarcasm]

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 06, 2014, 07:03:36 am

Blugherfluggle... Gotta love busy times. Sorry folks, I'll be doing another 'read-stravaganza' sometime before the day [actual day, not game-day] ends. Thankfully you guys have finally started posting more so I'll have more to say.

Hopefully your schedule starts to improve, I'll look forward to your reply.

MyOwnWorstEnemy:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

@mastahcheese: My only internet access at home is my phone. Hopefully that states your curiosity. I'll give my reads now, but it's going to be shorter than my previous attempt.
-snip-
It's not the wall I promised, but it's here.

Yes, it does sate my curiosity. Thank you for that.
And I find your reads sufficient. I can see you're paying attention.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Also, I understand SBC's strategy isn't the best and doesn't always work. I just find myself thinking this way.

It may not be the best, and it may not always work, but I also can't think of a strategy that couldn't also be described in this way. I think a fair mix of strategies is best, and so while SBC's strategy is... unusual for forum mafia, I have to give it its merits where due.

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:43:26 am

Sinless.... Be here.

I am here, attempting to figure out what to say is a pretty hard thing as I'm not fully aware of how to use strategies. :P

Don't worry about strategies, just go in guns blazing if that's what it takes. If you make a mistake, you can learn from it. But you can't learn nearly as much from watching others as you can from trying things yourself. Get yourself out of your comfort zone. Remember, it's more fun to be active then passive (at least for me) and it's more fun for other people as well when you're active. I'd love to question you and see how you react, but you're not giving me anything to question. If you mess up, that's part of the game, just get out here and join our party.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, [1] I could very well be not scum. [2] Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

See, now I have a little something to work with.
I'll ignore the parts about being inactive, as I've stated my view on it above.
[1] What do you mean, "could very well be not scum"? Are you scum or not?
[2] I'll agree that scum should do this, but sometimes they don't. That's why lurkers can be so dangerous.

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Why so defensive?

I attack other people's attacks all the time. This one just happened to be directed at me.

This makes me wonder, what are your views on jumping in to other people's scumhunting? There seems to be offending viewpoints on the subject, and I want to know what your stance on the matter is.

Persus13 and MOWE:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 04:59:22 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Mastahcheese: All you've done is hunt and push. You seem like the perfect townie. I've found no fault in your reasoning thus far. I'd say town.

I'd agree with you that Mastahcheese seems to be good town. But keep in the back of you mind the possibility that he could be very good scum.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

I also understand hat mastahcheese is either really good town or really good scum, [1] which I avoided saying, perhaps in a moment of stupidity, to lull them into a false sense of security so they might make a mistake. [2] It seems I watch too many crime shows.  :P

Wow, for my first game ever I wasn't expecting complements. Whether I'm town or scum, at least I'd be considered "good" at it. Thank you guys.
[1] Yes, you should have mentioned it, I could be scum, or I could just be a vanilla townie who doesn't give a s#!% if I make a huge target out of myself because I have no useful role apart from scum hunting, which lets me be as carefree and daring as I please. But there's always the chance I'm scum. Don't ever forget that.
[2] You can never watch too many crime shows.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, I could very well be not scum. Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

While it's true that scum tend to be fairly active (I'm more interested and invested in a game when I'm scum, for example), scum's goal is often not to get noticed. Sometimes this means lurking. Lurkers are also annoying to have around as lack of activity can kill a game or make a scum win easier. It also causes town to have less information about that player.

Anyway, if you had to vote this second, who would it be on?

While true, it would be much more likely (in my opinion) that scum would be really active. Lurking on the other hand seems counter-intuitive to the scums goal which would be to get other players lynched. Although this comes from a guy who's only real forum mafia game is this one... Well, lets just say that take it with a large helping of salt. :P

Also, to who I would vote on? Makeinu would be that person, he seems overly suspicious and seems to be very pro-lynch towards everyone. I just don't trust him.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

Don't worry about strategies, just go in guns blazing if that's what it takes. If you make a mistake, you can learn from it. But you can't learn nearly as much from watching others as you can from trying things yourself. Get yourself out of your comfort zone. Remember, it's more fun to be active then passive (at least for me) and it's more fun for other people as well when you're active. I'd love to question you and see how you react, but you're not giving me anything to question. If you mess up, that's part of the game, just get out here and join our party.

I prefer not to mess up though. :P But you're right, that's why I have been putting a lot more effort into my posts. I'm definitely still not where I want to be in terms of being able to play forum Mafia well, but hey; I'm trying right?

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, [1] I could very well be not scum. [2] Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

See, now I have a little something to work with.
I'll ignore the parts about being inactive, as I've stated my view on it above.

[1] What do you mean, "could very well be not scum"? Are you scum or not?

I am not scum, I was simply referring to the fact that people seem to believe that if someone is inactive, they are scum. The reason why I was saying that was to give credit to the possibility that lurkers could in fact be scum, instead of outright denying that possibility.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

[2] I'll agree that scum should do this, but sometimes they don't. That's why lurkers can be so dangerous.

I'd rather scum be active, I can see why lurkers could be dangerous, but on one hand; they might just be busy. I was lurking just because I wasn't really sure of how to initiate myself. Now however, you can see that I'm not lurking and creating informative posts. (Relatively. :P )


So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 09:03:45 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

I prefer not to mess up though. :P But you're right, that's why I have been putting a lot more effort into my posts. I'm definitely still not where I want to be in terms of being able to play forum Mafia well, but hey; I'm trying right?

Yes, I can see you are trying, and thank you for that. And while I can completely understand the "not wanting to mess up" bit, you can learn a lot from them.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

[1] What do you mean, "could very well be not scum"? Are you scum or not?

I am not scum, I was simply referring to the fact that people seem to believe that if someone is inactive, they are scum. The reason why I was saying that was to give credit to the possibility that lurkers could in fact be scum, instead of outright denying that possibility.

Thank you for clarifying that. And thank you for not denying that.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

I'd rather scum be active, I can see why lurkers could be dangerous, but on one hand; they might just be busy. I was lurking just because I wasn't really sure of how to initiate myself. Now however, you can see that I'm not lurking and creating informative posts. (Relatively. :P )

You're definitely doing better. Hopefully you'll feel more inclined to initiate actions as you feel more comfortable.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

They do seem to both be pro-lynch, but SBC at least may the point that they prefer lynching for information, rather than just for the heck of it, making a case that at least we can gain some ammunition from it to fuel an investigation. Like going back to the "not wanting to mess up" part, let's say we do mis-lynch. Yes, we've lost a member of the town, and someone who could have helped scum-hunt, but at least we can use the information we can gleam from it to try to discover why the mis-lynch happened, and to not do so again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:39:03 pm

Sinless: I'll tell you why we seem pro-lynch...

Right now. We are 7/2. That's 7 total players, and 2 mafia.

This... This right now, is the one and only time where we have a ML. Meaning we can lynch someone without immediate consequence.

If we don't lynch today.
Unless JK manages to protect, we will be down to 6/2. That's 6 total people and 2 mafia. At this point, it is a MYLO, meaning you will lose if you mislynch. Anything after that will either be a mylo, lylo, or town loss.

If we do lynch today
We will be down to 5/2, that is 5 players and 2 mafia. That is where the above ^ would end up, but with an extra day. This is Lylo, Lynch or Lose. If you don't lynch correctly you lose.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:40:43 pm

Argghh forgot about you Persus:

I said it, first as a poke to get more substance out of you, but second, and more important. I don't remember really anything you've said. That means that what you've said doesn't stick. Usually, that's one of my measures for active lurking. What the person says doesn't have an enough of an impact on the game for myself to remember it off the top of my head.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:42:39 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:39:03 pm

Sinless: I'll tell you why we seem pro-lynch...

Right now. We are 7/2. That's 7 total players, and 2 mafia.

This... This right now, is the one and only time where we have a ML. Meaning we can lynch someone without immediate consequence.

If we don't lynch today.
Unless JK manages to protect, we will be down to 6/2. That's 6 total people and 2 mafia. At this point, it is a MYLO, meaning you will lose if you mislynch. Anything after that will either be a mylo, lylo, or town loss.

If we do lynch today
We will be down to 5/2, that is 5 players and 2 mafia. That is where the above ^ would end up, but with an extra day. This is Lylo, Lynch or Lose. If you don't lynch correctly you lose.

That's one of the best arguments for lynching I've seen.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:43:40 pm

That better not be sarcastic! >:c

Do we get a lurker tracker for this game Tir Tir!?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:54:10 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:40:43 pm

Argghh forgot about you Persus:

I said it, first as a poke to get more substance out of you, but second, and more important. I don't remember really anything you've said. That means that what you've said doesn't stick. Usually, that's one of my measures for active lurking. What the person says doesn't have an enough of an impact on the game for myself to remember it off the top of my head.

That's a good definition of active lurking. I may use that.

Also, I've been meaning to ask this. Given your experience as scum, how do you think your scumhunting technique works measured against that?

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

Why so defensive?

I attack other people's attacks all the time. This one just happened to be directed at me.

This makes me wonder, what are your views on jumping in to other people's scumhunting? There seems to be offending viewpoints on the subject, and I want to know what your stance on the matter is.

Do it, especially later on. Sometimes this is called chainsaw defending or coming to the defense of someone else. However, if I have an issue with someone's argument, I'll attack it, because scum will sometimes have weak or bad attacks. I know that when I was scum, one problem I had was making up attacks on people because I knew they were town. I found one scum D1 this way in the last Mafia game I played.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:54:53 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:43:40 pm

That better not be sarcastic! >:c

It isn't, that's one of the neatest summaries I've seen.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:15:04 pm

Persus: My experience of scum here is horrid

Fake claiming as a third party, and then getting killed for claiming as that third party. Because it's dangerous.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 06, 2014, 10:52:08 pm

"There has always been reason for an action. In depth of knowledge lies truth and providence."

The music stirs a venerable tune, surpassing that of the minstrel and of the paeans. It enkindles the spirit and strikes at the very soul; for fleeting seconds, no sound permeated the city but that of the nine, until all could feel tranquility radiating from the stage.

On one of the overlooks high above the city, a family stood watching--father and daughter, enchanted by the song which lost no voice. They kept their silence, until moments later when the crowds below broke out in merriment and applause, no matter the fact that the play was still ongoing.

"Father," the youngling said, "what's happening down there? Weren't there actors and the like?"
"The actors are all there," he replied, leaning back and stretching his arms, "they're just acting their roles, hiding behind the masks we all use."
"But I'm not wearing a mask, am I?" She put a hand to her cheek, curious and expectant in the same.
He smiled in response, holding out his outstretched palm. A puff of light followed, and a minuscule orb of emerald light floated above it. "You have a mask as much as I do. We just aren't wearing it now--people say I'm a Ward, much like the spellwards down below: a guardian, a protector and an overseer. They're right in that aspect, yet there is always much more to me, as there is always much more to you."

The orb drifted around, spinning lazily and tumbling in circles until it rested on the young child's nose, before vanishing with a subtle pop. "It's symbolic, what they're doing down there. Much more than a fancy show of the Arts. It teaches history and society in one play."
"Ooooh! Like how the fog came in? I don't remember any of that in my history class. That's the Gap, isn't it Da?""The passing of the Age of Myth, and the coming of our first recorded time before the sundering." He tossed a fluffy, white ball towards her.
"Tissues? I'm not crying."
"You'll soon be. This is only a prelude to things to come. We have a whole day of night to enjoy, and this is the best time for it. Also, that was for me. Thanks for holding it my child."

She laughed and hugged. "Thanks for taking time off, da. I missed you a lot."
"I missed you too, my daughter."

The song shifted tune, now into the instrumentals we know of today. The woodwind, the harpsichord, and the modern piano took the fore, exhibiting a light, dulcet tone, and yet played in a calm, steady rhythm.

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon - Nerjin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4879952#msg4879952)
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• makeinu - Superblackcat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4881064#msg4881064), mastahcheese (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4882107#msg4882107), Persus13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4887610#msg4887610), MyOwnWorstEnemy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4890844#msg4890844)
• Not Voting: Jembot, makeinu, Sinlessmoon, Pufferfish

Mod Note: This extend (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4890230#msg4890230) cancels and takes in all extend requests before it.

Day 1 has begun and will end at January 8, 2013 [Wednesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140108T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
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Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:43:40 pm

Do we get a lurker tracker for this game Tir Tir!?

..I dunno~ :v

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 12:07:40 am

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0
 (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0)
This shoulda werk

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 07, 2014, 12:33:40 am

Superblackcat

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:42:39 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:39:03 pm

Sinless: I'll tell you why we seem pro-lynch...

Right now. We are 7/2. That's 7 total players, and 2 mafia.

This... This right now, is the one and only time where we have a ML. Meaning we can lynch someone without immediate consequence.

If we don't lynch today.
Unless JK manages to protect, we will be down to 6/2. That's 6 total people and 2 mafia. At this point, it is a MYLO, meaning you will lose if you mislynch. Anything after that will either be a mylo, lylo, or town loss.

If we do lynch today
We will be down to 5/2, that is 5 players and 2 mafia. That is where the above ^ would end up, but with an extra day. This is Lylo, Lynch or Lose. If you don't lynch correctly you lose.

That's one of the best arguments for lynching I've seen.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:54:53 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:43:40 pm

That better not be sarcastic! >:c

It isn't, that's one of the neatest summaries I've seen.

I have to agree with this, that is the best explanation I've seen.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:54:10 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 09:40:43 pm

Argghh forgot about you Persus:
I said it, first as a poke to get more substance out of you, but second, and more important. I don't remember really anything you've said. That means that what you've said doesn't stick. Usually, that's one of my measures for active lurking. What the person says doesn't have an enough of an impact on the game for myself to remember it off the top of my head.

That's a good definition of active lurking. I may use that.

I also agree with this definition of active lurking.
That said, Pufferfish and Jembot need to post more, dang it!

Also, yes, your link works. It doesn't take into account your replacing EP, but he didn't really say much before he left, anyway.

Persus13

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 09:54:10 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

This makes me wonder, what are your views on jumping in to other people's scumhunting? There seems to be offending viewpoints on the subject, and I want to know what your stance on the matter is.

Do it, especially later on. Sometimes this is called chainsaw defending or coming to the defense of someone else. However, if I have an issue with someone's argument, I'll attack it, because scum will sometimes have weak or bad attacks. I know that when I was scum, one problem I had was making up attacks on people because I knew they were town. I found one scum D1 this way in the last Mafia game I played.

That's good to know. I was also unaware that that was called Chainsaw Defending.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 12:45:59 am

Well persus: Thanks for supporting the definition.

Now whatdya have to say about that?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 07, 2014, 01:00:59 am

Quote from: Tiruin on January 06, 2014, 10:52:08 pm

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 12:07:40 am

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0
 (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0)
This shoulda werk

Sometimes I wonder if anything I say ever gets through to anyone.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 07, 2014, 01:05:41 am

Quote from: Tiruin on January 07, 2014, 01:00:59 am

Quote from: Tiruin on January 06, 2014, 10:52:08 pm

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 12:07:40 am

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0
 (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=133728&start=114&msg=0&sort=user&numlabel=0)
This shoulda werk

Sometimes I wonder if anything I say ever gets through to anyone.

It gets through to me.
I just also appreciate the shortcut that SBC provided. I'm sure some people haven't figured out how to use the Lurkertracker themselves, yet.
And you actually already had a link to the tracker on the post of the game start, I've used it a few times, already.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 07, 2014, 03:21:53 am

Sorry for lurky-lurky the past bit. Suck network access + busy days = killmenow.... figuratively.

Also, Adventures in Playstyle^(tm) success!

Extend, though I suspect it'll be the only vote for it.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 04:59:22 pm

MOWE:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

SBC: I find your theory...different. From what you've been arguing thus far, it seems like you're main thing is those uo look the most innocent are probably the guilty ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I see. That is sort of my way of thinking as well. I'm somewhat suspicious of you, but I don't think you're scum. Yet.

If this is what SBC's arguing, I'd definitely agree with him, sometimes. The goal of scum is to stay unnoticed and seem innocent. This doesn't always work.

I'll add that very active Town will often look not innocent, because scum-hunting isn't a "nice" activity. Your goal in scum-hunting is to catch inconsistencies, and the easiest way to do that is to rile someone up, and force them to make a mistake. Another way to do that is to give the Scum a good target to go after, with the attendant risks.

Scum rarely give themselves away easily.

Quote

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Makeinu: Town hunting? No sir. Scum hunt town (in a way) and town hunt scum, finding town in the process. This stinks of scum.

Hunting someone and deciding their town is a perfectly legitimate strategy.

It's often a very effective strategy as well, as you can see who else piles on your target. Scum, obviously, knows who Town are, but they're hunting as well, because they want to find the power roles. See, bandwagoning and sheeping don't come just on the vote records, they also come from attacks and defends.

So, if you're hunting someone, trying to figure out their alignment, focusing only on the scum can lead to dangerous levels of Confirmation Bias, where everything you see that says "I'm right! He's [blah]" gets noticed, and contrary arguments get ignored. Scum-hunting is as much about clearing people as it is about finding scum.

Quote

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Mastahcheese: All you've done is hunt and push. You seem like the perfect townie. I've found no fault in your reasoning thus far. I'd say town.

I'd agree with you that Mastahcheese seems to be good town. But keep in the back of you mind the possibility that he could be very good scum.

There's another factor: even moderately good scum, and sometimes bad scum, can look good and Town in comparison to a very scummy-looking player.

That said, I'm pretty convinced mastahcheese is Town, and I'm the bad example he's being examined in light of.

---

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 05:36:57 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Sinlessmoon: lurker. But not scummy. You seem to have a valid excuse. Fear is a powerful thing.
 

Indeed, just because I happen to not be active in the thread, doesn't mean I'm not watching the thread intently. People like to believe that just because If I'm inactive, I am scum; In truth though, I could very well be not scum. Someone who is scum is more likely to be active, trying to throw blame on someone in order to get them lynched. Eh Makeinu?

Fear of what? Losing? It's not like we cut fingers off if you don't win. Get in there and play, dammit!

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 06:58:40 pm

While it's true that scum tend to be fairly active (I'm more interested and invested in a game when I'm scum, for example), scum's goal is often not to get noticed. Sometimes this means lurking. Lurkers are also annoying to have around as lack of activity can kill a game or make a scum win easier. It also causes town to have less information about that player.

Anyway, if you had to vote this second, who would it be on?

While true, it would be much more likely (in my opinion) that scum would be really active. Lurking on the other hand seems counter-intuitive to the scums goal which would be to get other players lynched. Although this comes from a guy who's only real forum mafia game is this one... Well, lets just say that take it with a large helping of salt. :P

Also, to who I would vote on? Makeinu would be that person, he seems overly suspicious and seems to be very pro-lynch towards everyone. I just don't trust him.

Also, if you're going to try deflection like that *points at bolded section* at least back it up with an actual vote. FoS just looks weak, if you don't trust me that much.

Btw, multiple town-claiming, I  speak from experience, normally is looked upon as scummy.

Quote

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

Pro-lynch. SBC really did make a great case for why it's the best idea, but I'll also refer you back to this from the OP:

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 06, 2014, 10:15:04 pm

Persus: My experience of scum here is horrid

Fake claiming as a third party, and then getting killed for claiming as that third party. Because it's dangerous.

That was a bad situation to replace into, no arguing that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Silthuri on January 07, 2014, 05:04:11 am

makeinu:

It seemed to me that you we're saying that actively looking for town was a good idea. Like looking for town instead of scum. I understand that one has to keep an open mind when hunting scum so they can avoid distorting what they see. Is this what you we're meaning?

As for fear, I for one am still terrified of messing up and looking like an idiot. Losing isn't a problem for me. Losing is just as valuable as winning, and sometimes more valuable. But the thought of looking like an idiot and making everyone think I'm an idiot on my very first mafia game scares me. ((Any advice for me? Aside from just getting out there anyway, which I've been trying to do.))

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 07, 2014, 08:17:52 am

2 extends in! 24 hours left.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 07, 2014, 03:42:12 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 07, 2014, 03:21:53 am

Also, if you're going to try deflection like that *points at bolded section* at least back it up with an actual vote. FoS just looks weak, if you don't trust me that much.

Btw, multiple town-claiming, I  speak from experience, normally is looked upon as scummy.

Rightfully so, I can definitely see how It could be.

I would much rather not cast my vote pre-maturely, even though I don't trust you; that doesn't mean I believe you to be scum. I'd rather be sure of my vote than cast it poorly.

Quote

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

Quote from: makeinu on January 07, 2014, 03:21:53 am

Pro-lynch. SBC really did make a great case for why it's the best idea, but I'll also refer you back to this from the OP:

That is true enough, what SBC referred to was definitely concise about it. I stand by my opinion that it seems scummy to jump to conclusions and begin the lynch-mobile.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 10:30:34 pm

Sinless, depending on the situation, there are certainly... benefits to NLing.

The most obvious one is the Town PRs, such as the cop. They get two nights worth of investigating vs one. So I can't tell you if you want to NL or not, you have to make the decision, but I can give you the two sides, and let you decide.

That being said, I'm still ardent on my Makeinu vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Persus13 on January 07, 2014, 10:36:08 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 10:30:34 pm

Sinless, depending on the situation, there are certainly... benefits to NLing.

The most obvious one is the Town PRs, such as the cop. They get two nights worth of investigating vs one. So I can't tell you if you want to NL or not, you have to make the decision, but I can give you the two sides, and let you decide.

That being said, I'm still ardent on my Makeinu vote.

I'll agree with this. In this game, there are one, possibly two town power roles, so Nights are more beneficial to scum than town. However, some games have lots of town power roles that do various stuff, so that may be more beneficial for town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 07, 2014, 10:43:56 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 07, 2014, 05:04:11 am

As for fear, I for one am still terrified of messing up and looking like an idiot. Losing isn't a problem for me. Losing is just as valuable as winning, and sometimes more valuable. But the thought of looking like an idiot and making everyone think I'm an idiot on my very first mafia game scares me. ((Any advice for me? Aside from just getting out there anyway, which I've been trying to do.))

I can understand that fear, I really can. But honestly, don't worry about it, (I know you still will, but bear with me) this is Beginner's Mafia. This is what this was designed for, to get people who have never played the game before to try it. You don't have to worry about looking like an idiot because this isn't some kind of Call of Duty game or other such nonsense where people will sigh loudly into their headsets and call you a "noob", this is a place of learning and education. So get out there and learn, and I think you'll find that you won't do that bad at all. If you make mistakes, then hey, it's not like it hasn't happened twenty times before, to each and every person here. Everyone had to begin somewhere, and I like to think that we're in one of the most understanding communities out there, so we'll understand. Don't worry, you're doing fine.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 10:46:49 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBB!
Alright, done.

Mess up all you want. That's why I'm here. So I can feel superior So I can help new people. Same with Makeinu, Persus, and Nerjin. Anyone who's played before will try to help you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 07, 2014, 10:49:22 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 10:46:49 pm

Mess up all you want. That's why I'm here. So I can feel superior So I can help new people. Same with Makeinu, Persus, and Nerjin. Anyone who's played before will try to help you.

Don't forget pufferfish, wherever they are. They played at least one game before this one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 07, 2014, 11:03:13 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 07, 2014, 10:46:49 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBB!
Alright, done.

Mess up all you want. That's why I'm here. So I can feel superior So I can help new people. Same with Makeinu, Persus, and Nerjin. Anyone who's played before will try to help you.

Exactly. As strange as my behaviour has been this game, it's all been about teaching. Believe it or not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: Tiruin on January 08, 2014, 06:01:18 am

"Sometimes, we are afraid to act; we fear that by our actions, we cause harm on vague reason, yet by not acting, we also go down another path: the neutral path. The idle journey."

A cold wind catches up and breezes through the city. The young girl gripped her coat tighter as she looked down upon the stage.

"Da, what's happening? The music is changing again."
"We're moving into general history now my child. Sooner or later, what we'll be seeing is what once was, instead of speculation."
"So no more colors and flashy lights? I liked that part."
"You'll be seeing those. Just not what we saw before."

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon - Nerjin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4879952#msg4879952)
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• makeinu - Superblackcat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4881064#msg4881064), mastahcheese (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4882107#msg4882107), Persus13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4887610#msg4887610), MyOwnWorstEnemy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4890844#msg4890844)
• Not Voting: Jembot, makeinu, Sinlessmoon, Pufferfish

Day 1 has begun and will end at January 8, 2013 [Wednesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140108T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End&csz=1)]

2 Hours remain in the day

Extension requests: 2
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There is ONE possible extension remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

I'll be locking the thread when day ends and will resume the day on Friday; 9am, due to me predicting a lapse in time from day end, and when it'll be written due to RL stuff.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: makeinu on January 08, 2014, 09:16:29 am

Ah well, brought this on myself.

Longer explanation (as IC-in-training) later, if Tiruin will let me ;)

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 1 has begun | Act I: Epilogue
Post by: Tiruin on January 08, 2014, 10:31:29 am

"Love and loss. While we wish for utopia, it is by standing upon our shortcomings and looking back to our climb to where we are today that we can truly appreciate who we are, as people."

The family looks down at the stage, and as if in acknowledgement of the eyes of the masses--of their anticipation--the web turns into a diaphanous white, shimmering against the many lights in the audience. It continues like so, before fading into the planet.

A few cries are heard--cries of surprise and amazement--as a shroud is broken and the planet is viewed anew. Remains, ruins and relics of the Mythical Era appear, and with their place coexisted the civilizations, both old and new. The arid wasteland that once was, was only an illusion crafted from the lore of ancient past, and many were fooled henceforth.

Before their very eyes, the civilizations grew and spread throughout the land. The land, itself, broke into parts, spreading under shifting banners and the tides grew noisy, a raucous voice speaking against those who once lived in mutuality now going their own separate ways. Visions of war: of weapons brandished in arms, of soldiers marching in formation and of conquest of lands and liberty are seen.

Above the planet appears the faint visage of a masked man, dressed as dark as night, and as black as any shadow against the light. And he spake onto the people, saying, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/Themes/darkling/images/bbc/quote.gif)Sentience was our gift that separated us from our others. Governance was our duty. To make use of what was around us. We invented ships to cross the earth, unhindered by the tides or the seas. We invented buildings to rise to the heavens, and cross the skies with our wings. We invented light to see in the darkest of depths.

Yet all we made, was a reaction to what was present, and we wanted. With every benefit, there soon came a problem, and we overlooked. We invented ways to solve problems, yet we did not understand what those problems were. We saw obstacles, hindrances and troubles. Dangers and monsters were what came to exist.

We created our own problems, by not looking towards our solutions. This is the Age of Storms, where discovery was at its peak. Where the storms grew, and where tensions were strained.

==+=++=+==

With that, the man vanished and the civilizations turned against each other. This is the third act. The prelude to the third age.

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon - Nerjin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4879952#msg4879952)
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• makeinu - Superblackcat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4881064#msg4881064), mastahcheese (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4882107#msg4882107), Persus13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4887610#msg4887610), MyOwnWorstEnemy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4890844#msg4890844)
• Not Voting: Jembot, makeinu, Sinlessmoon, Pufferfish

Night 1 has begun and will end at January 10, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 am [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140110T09&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=a39de0&msg=Night+1+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 2
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There is ONE possible extension remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

makeinu has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Mafioso!

Quote

makeinu
The Court has set the stage, and you play the role of the Shade. Taking the role of a being of shadow, you resemble the aspect of knowledge, information and intellect deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Shade is always under that of another color, giving variety to the different aspects of the visible spectrum, and a direct relative to the caste of Light, though always on a darker level than your origin.

You are of the Mafia Faction! You have access to the shared Nightkill of your faction. You may scheme and discuss privately with your allies here (http://Nyan~)

Wincondition: You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!

The game has entered the night phase. No person may post during the night phase and the thread will be locked to ensure such.

Please submit your actions via PM, if any. The Night will end at the time stated or until all probable actions are sent in.

~If any personal modifications to the planet at this certain era is wanted--please do send in that request. Flavoring hasn't been this fun!~

---

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Quote from: makeinu on January 08, 2014, 09:16:29 am

Ah well, brought this on myself.

Longer explanation (as IC-in-training) later, if Tiruin will let me ;)

After game, ya silly cat! :3
Rest now, sleep well, and talk with your civilian tone, for your time is up. The play will resume.

Yes, night lasts ~1+ days despite what the OP says. For everyone's rest and leisure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Introductions
Post by: Tiruin on January 09, 2014, 08:22:40 pm

[Flavor placed here]

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---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Jembot -
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting: Y'all.

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 15, 2013 [Wednesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140115T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

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Guess I'm too busy to flavor it up now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: makeinu on January 09, 2014, 09:32:13 pm

Buh...

I regret nothing!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 09, 2014, 10:32:32 pm

Praise be: for the JKer!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 09, 2014, 11:08:20 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 09, 2014, 10:32:32 pm

Praise be: for the JKer!

Yeah, I actually had to reread that twice, because I was like "wait, who died? I think we're all here..." before realizing that we must have had an excellent doctor.
Impeccable work, good sir or madam! We're off to an excellent start.

Ok, new reads for the new day!

•Superblackcat - You've been doing a great job of being active, and have pressed issues well, as well as demanding clarity from your target. I say you're a high probability of being town.
•Sinlessmoon - You're doing better about being active, hopefully the new day will inspire you to draw conclusions and ask questions. Can't get a good read yet. Kinda feeling a town vibe, though.
•Jembot - You're still doing a pretty terrible job of being active. I'm reluctant to say scum, but you're lurking.
•Persus13 - I feel like you've been a little more... reactive at times, but you've jumped on opportunities well, so I can tell you're definitely paying attention for logic lapses. I'm reading you as town, for now.
•Pufferfish - Dang it, where are you? I've forgotten you're even in this multiple times now. Post, dang it, you lurker!
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - You're doing better at being active, at least. Stop feeling nervous and afraid, and get out here! So far I think you're reluctant town.
•Nerjin - Our surviving IC has been rather absent as of late, but at least he's been excusing himself for it on the times he's been able to show, and trying to participate when he can. I'm reading a busy signal.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 12:34:07 am

Alright, I was waiting for him to flip town... My heart was about to blow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 10, 2014, 12:58:39 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 12:34:07 am

Alright, I was waiting for him to flip town... My heart was about to blow.

You weren't the only one. I was also flipping out over who was going to get killed in the night.

Now to find the other one... and with not much in the way of evidence, either.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:01:04 am

Well... The JK had a 50/50 chance. He might have blocked mafia, or protected mafia kill.

That being said. DO NOT OUT YET. Wait for the day to be more on its way. Even then, use your own judgement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 10, 2014, 01:07:19 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:01:04 am

Well... The JK had a 50/50 chance. He might have blocked mafia, or protected mafia kill.

That being said. DO NOT OUT YET. Wait for the day to be more on its way. Even then, use your own judgement.

Oh, I thought we were using a doctor, I forgot we were using jailkeeper. Hmm.
And yes, DON'T OUT. That would be a very bad idea right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 09:07:38 am

D2 is here! Either scum went with a NL (which I doubt) or our JKer picked the right person to roleblock/protect.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 09, 2014, 11:08:20 pm

•Persus13 - I feel like you've been a little more... reactive at times, but you've jumped on opportunities well, so I can tell you're definitely paying attention for logic lapses. I'm reading you as town, for now.

I tend to be pretty reactive, yeah. It's partly because I hate RVS.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 10, 2014, 01:07:19 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:01:04 am

Well... The JK had a 50/50 chance. He might have blocked mafia, or protected mafia kill.

That being said. DO NOT OUT YET. Wait for the day to be more on its way. Even then, use your own judgement.

Oh, I thought we were using a doctor, I forgot we were using jailkeeper. Hmm.
And yes, DON'T OUT. That would be a very bad idea right now.

I agree with this.

Anyway, so today I recommend rereading the thread, and looking at interactions with Makeinu.

MOWE, why did you vote Makeinu yesterday?

Jembot: I'd love to hear some activity from you.

Nerjin: Activity from you would also be cool.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 10, 2014, 10:39:37 am

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 09:07:38 am

MOWE, why did you vote Makeinu yesterday?

I voted makeinu because he was the scummiest person in my opinion. If you recall, I had suspicions that he was scum long before I voted him. I said that something seemed off about him. After his comment on "town hunting" I decided he was the most scummy. I offered him the chance to clarify what he said. He didn't take it so the vote stayed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 10, 2014, 11:35:11 am

Alrighty, another huge read then. Keep in mind, please, that though I might not post often I try to make posts I do make count. I’ll try to address that better further on in my “Read-a-palooza” Pt. 3

Addendum: Since it is now Day 2 it might be a good idea to go back and see who voted whom and why. I would also recommend at least skimming the entirety of day 1 again to see if something sticks out.

Furthermore do not forget that Makeinu can still post because he is a dead IC. He can’t directly comment on the game but he can go over theories and such. The same goes for me when and if my time comes. However, You guys cannot when you die.

---

Spoiler: Jembot (click to show/hide)

I stated, last time, that Jem has been VERY passive. So much so that he’s not even asked any questions although he has asked all of the ones that have been thrown towards him. At least that I’ve noticed. The “2 posts” in the lurker-tracker since last time don’t fill me with confidence that he’s picked it up but let’s find out.

---

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

Nerjin- As an IC, what would you say is the number one mistake made by new players, either scum or town?

Right now? I'm thinking it would be "Not post". Not posting = Not Trying. Not Trying = Not Getting better. Yes it's a scary time in your first game. You don't REALLY know what you're doing. Even the best of you are just following what you've been told works. You haven't found your own groove just yet. BUT sometimes the fear of messing up petrifies the players. Remember children: Even if you fuck up you're learning something. Just keep trying. Find your own way to play that works FOR YOU. But most importantly: Play the game!

That being said, Jemboy, where are you right now? You’ve been sort’ve gone for quite some time. Almost as long as I. Do you plan to press anyone on these answers? I shall await your promised wall of text with gherkins. [Play on word for Relish.]

---

Still lurky. Still lurky. Get in here Jemboy and try to… Jerky? Anyways, you’re lurking. Could you try doing some more? I don’t know if you’re scum or town BUT I do know that you should post a bit more often.

Spoiler: Mastahcheese (click to show/hide)

I asked him to question others and give his reads. Other than that I said his play was decent overall. He’s certainly posted a lot more since then. Let’s give it a read, shall we?

---

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 02:42:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 02:31:53 pm

Why? Because you don't have any questions of your own to ask?
-snip-
So, stop thinking so hard. Just pick a glass and drink the damn wine, because both glasses are poisoned, and the other guy's immune.
And ask your own questions.

Why should I not ask a question that you failed to answer? If it's sitting right in front of me, completely untouched, does that mean I should take it up myself?
What you're suggesting is that I voluntarily limit the amount of weapons and tactics I use to hunt scum with, and not only is that an incredibly bad idea, it's advice that I, personally, would never give to someone.
If you have a weapon, you'd better freaking use it, whether it's someone else's or not. And I can guarantee that I'm not the only one who feels that way, calling someone out on failing to answer a question isn't lazy, it's called scumhunting, where you find where they slip up, and act on it.
So tell me, makeinu, why would you have me limit the amount of weapons at my disposal? Are you trying to make me an ineffective scumhunter? Why are you dodging questions in the first place?

That right there was beautiful. I didn’t even catch it until after the lynch. Good job on that one.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 03, 2014, 08:42:45 pm

Nerjin:
May I request that you provide two things for us?
[1] An in-character read on everybody.
[2] An IC assessment on everyone's progress.

Done and somewhat done. I have some more stuff to say about the second but I’m going to wait until the person is dead before I say that stuff.

   

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 09, 2014, 11:08:20 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 09, 2014, 10:32:32 pm

Praise be: for the JKer!

Yeah, I actually had to reread that twice, because I was like "wait, who died? I think we're all here..." before realizing that we must have had an excellent doctor.
Impeccable work, good sir or madam! We're off to an excellent start.

Ah, here's something I wanted to actually bring up before it happened. Just like we're hunting for Scum, the scum are hunting for Power-roles. Here's the thing, one of the "doctor-tells" is praising the doctor. It comes off as stroking your own ego. I'm not sure if you're the doctor or not but I know the remaining scum and the Scum IC are certainly debating whether you are or not. For some reason I doubt you’re the Jail-keeper but… They’re certainly considering it.

---

Pretty damn good for a first timer. Are you sure you’ve not played other places before? That being said don’t let it go to your head. I’m getting a pretty good town-read from you.

Spoiler: MOWE (click to show/hide)

Last time I mentioned that MOWE had yet to actually follow up on her questions that have been answered. Other than that I didn’t really have much for her. Let’s see

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 02, 2014, 11:53:49 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 02, 2014, 06:24:58 pm

MyOwnWorstEnemy: One person was pressing very hard one another for scummy behavior, but the presser ends up getting killed in the night, and flips cop. What's your next plan of action?

Since a cop found it worthwhile to pursue this person and was promptly killed as a result, I think it's safe to say that the person is scum. I would then go back and look at this person's past to try to find some more solid evidence.

Mostly correct there. Although I’d say that the portion I bolded is up for debate. Remember that cops can only inspect one person a night so don’t assume that their main suspect was scum right off the bat. You should HEAVILY suspect the person is scum but unless the cop stated outright “I know you’re scum” or something to that effect they may have just been suspicious.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 04, 2014, 07:00:09 pm

Jembot, I find you the scummiest person by far. You were last active this morning at approximately 1:30. I posted my accusation yesterday at 4:30 in the afternoon. What's the issue?

[/quote]

From what I'm gathering you voted Jemmy Boy because he was asking about  role that wasn't in this game and he lurked? Is that correct? If not could you expand on what your case on him was?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Persus: Fairly active compared to most. I find this suspicious. It's almost like you're trying to be here while staying unnoticed. This being said, I have seen no strong indication that your scum.

I think you're looking for the term "Active Lurking".

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 06:12:19 pm

As for you, did you miss the part where I said "I have no strong indication that you're scum"? If I'm going to accuse you, I'm going to have a better reason than "I think you're active-lurking."

Yeah, I used to do this. As someone told me "You're not the ... batman". It can sometimes seem like this is a good strategy. Maybe in face-to-face mafia it is. In forum mafia there's too much time between posts for this to be a viable strategy I'm afraid. But hey, at least you're trying something new right? Like I said earlier: Try to find the way to play that works for you.

---

Seems pretty solid to me.  Other than being restricted by “Phone Only” play I find her rather town-appearing.
[/spoiler]

Spoiler: Persus13 (click to show/hide)

Last time I basically told them that they weren’t scum-hunting and was instead just saying something to avoid getting called out for lurking. I told them to press a case… Did they?

---

Quote from: Persus13 on January 06, 2014, 04:59:22 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 06, 2014, 01:13:48 pm

Makeinu: Town hunting? No sir. Scum hunt town (in a way) and town hunt scum, finding town in the process. This stinks of scum.

Hunting someone and deciding their town is a perfectly legitimate strategy. I'll agree with you that makeinu seems scummy, but when you're becoming the third vote on a player you need better reasoning than this. Quoting generally helps your case too, unless you're making a false case.

True, true, and true. However: Setting out to find town-players isn't really helpful for Scum-hunting [which is, I believe, what MOWE was talking about].

Plus, as MOWE has stated, she does not have a computer. Only a phone. It is hard to do this stuff on a phone. Hell it's sometimes hard to get it right on a computer.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 09:07:38 am

D2 is here! Either scum went with a NL (which I doubt) or our JKer picked the right person to roleblock/protect.

You assume we actually HAVE a JK. This is a dangerous assumption to go with. I remember in the BM I hosted [which our gracious host Tiruin actually participated in] there were a few days with no-night-kills due to various internet reasons. NEVER assume that we have something. Instead go with the idea that “There was no night-kill! Awesome!” and leave it at that.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 09:07:38 am

Anyway, so today I recommend rereading the thread, and looking at interactions with Makeinu.

MOWE, why did you vote Makeinu yesterday?

What was yours?

---

Hm… Everything seems on the up-and-up to me. Keep in mind people, that if I don’t say something about it I likely didn’t have anything TO say about it.

Spoiler: Sinlessmoon (click to show/hide)

I had voted him because he was doing absolutely nothing. He hadn’t even posted IN the thread. Thankfully this has stopped. Let’s see what he’s done:

---

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 03, 2014, 07:21:41 pm

Why hello there everyone! I've been pretty busy, so in order to make up for that suspicious behavior; you can ask me any question you would like.

A ton of people had. You still haven’t answered all of them. READ THE THREAD and then ANSWER THE QUESTIOS please.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 04, 2014, 03:21:00 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

I would attempt to get them just a tiny bit active, not so much as to arouse suspicion; but to placate peoples opinions about them.

I haven't seen enough to properly determine someone to lynch so...

Extend.

Prodding someone for inactivity is a very good way to push suspicion on them. Setting aside the fact that COPS DO NOT SEE YOUR ROLE WHEN THEY INSPECT YOU there is also the issue that a lurker isn’t very helpful to us either way.

Perhaps you’d see more to determine someone to lynch if you asked questions and didn’t play so reactively after so long lurking.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

Don't worry about strategies, just go in guns blazing if that's what it takes. If you make a mistake, you can learn from it. But you can't learn nearly as much from watching others as you can from trying things yourself. Get yourself out of your comfort zone. Remember, it's more fun to be active then passive (at least for me) and it's more fun for other people as well when you're active. I'd love to question you and see how you react, but you're not giving me anything to question. If you mess up, that's part of the game, just get out here and join our party.

I prefer not to mess up though. But you're right, that's why I have been putting a lot more effort into my posts. I'm definitely still not where I want to be in terms of being able to play forum Mafia well, but hey; I'm trying right?

If you let fear rule you than you won’t accomplish much. Yeah, fear sucks. BUT everyone else in here is just as afraid as you. This seems more like an excuse than anything else. Plus this is your first post where you actually do anything other than say “I’m reading the thread”. You’ve gone from Lurking to Active-lurking. This is a good first step. How about you kick it up to being Active next? Just do your best.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

[2] I'll agree that scum should do this, but sometimes they don't. That's why lurkers can be so dangerous.

I'd rather scum be active, I can see why lurkers could be dangerous, but on one hand; they might just be busy. I was lurking just because I wasn't really sure of how to initiate myself. Now however, you can see that I'm not lurking and creating an informative posts. (Relatively. )

I fixed that for you. Most of your posts have been very passive or saying that “I’m reading the threat” as I stated before. But you’re starting to improve so I won’t hold it against you too much. How about some more good posts?

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

As god damn well they should be! Lynching is, once again, TOWN’S ONLY POWER IN THIS GAME! Without a lynch we lose while we let mafia pick us off one by one.

---

Still not active enough for my liking. He’s active-lurking right now with one pretty decent post. I implore you to keep posting stuff like that.

Spoiler: Superblackcat (click to show/hide)

I stated he needed to ask questions and actually get into the game. From the 27 posts he’s made I’ll take it as a good sign going into this read. Let’s see how he’s done.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 03, 2014, 02:36:03 am

Makeinu Why such an interest to what I think about scum hunting? Trying to improve your game? ;P

You kept your vote on him this entire time for that? Well… I suppose it worked out in the end however I would like to point out that if you know what someone thinks about scumhunting you can better analyze what they’re doing. For example: NQT likes to analyze vote patterns and [as of late] who has the most posts. I personally don’t think that stuff has as much of an influence as he thinks. HOWEVER if NQT suddenly started hunting like I do I would be really suspicious of him and would question why his way of hunting changed. Knowing how someone thinks can be pretty helpful towards figuring them and, by extension, their game out.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:01:04 am

Well... The JK had a 50/50 chance. He might have blocked mafia, or protected mafia kill.

That being said. DO NOT OUT YET. Wait for the day to be more on its way. Even then, use your own judgement.

You should never "out" yourself as a power role unless it will help Town. Doing so now would only paint a target on their back. That being said they had much less than a 50/50 chance.

---

There were several times when he posted nothing of content “Quote Makeinu!” and in those instances I have this to say: What did you want him to quote?

Other times he posted several times in a row. This is also bother-some and serves only to inflate your post-count and add fatigue to players on re-reads. Carefully consider what you’re about to post before you post it okay?

Other than that he seems to be doing alright. No real big things to point out.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 11:36:31 am

Unvote, your vote was the most likely to be a busvote.

Nerjin, please don't lurk. We currently have no information from you, other than that both you and makeinu voted Sinlessmoon about the same time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 11:38:20 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 11:36:31 am

Unvote, your vote was the most likely to be a busvote.

Nerjin, please don't lurk. We currently have no information from you, other than that both you and makeinu voted Sinlessmoon about the same time.

Ninja'd by the man himself, so I'm going to vote Jembot and tell him to please be active instead.

Jembot: Please be active.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:23:45 pm

Nerjin: So you say you read through our posts? Did you actually read through our posts? Since I voted him for that. Yes. But if you didn't see, I stayed on him for multiple reasons, that kept compounding as the game went on.

So...

Persus: Why did you end up voting Makeinu? Which part brought you there?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 10, 2014, 02:36:43 pm

I voted Makeinu shortly after Mastahcheese did.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 05, 2014, 02:56:50 pm

Makeinu: You're voting SBC for playing differences, missing things, and for lazy scumhunting.

Only the lazy scumhunting thing is something I see as a scumtell, and SBC's "question" did seem like a sly poke at you more than anything else. the fact you've been deflecting mastahcheese's concerns and didn't really answer the question yet claim you thought it was a real question don't really help your case.

Mastahcheese had a pretty good case against Makeinu, which convinced me as scum, and Makeinu also seemed to be changing his motivations every post. He was being very slippery and so I voted him.

Who do you think is Makeinu's buddy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 06:35:40 pm

Obviously, both the ICs are scum!

BURN THEM!

Unvote. Jembot

Since we have another ML, I say burn the lurker.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 10, 2014, 08:11:00 pm

[And then more flavor because Mod is confused on the structure of things now x3
Mmm, short summary: Immersion.]

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Jembot - Persus13, Superblackcat
• Persus13 -
• Pufferfish -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting: Y'all 'cept for those two.

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 15, 2013 [Wednesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140115T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Jembot, SInlessmoon and Pufferfish have been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 10, 2014, 11:01:06 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 06, 2014, 07:54:17 pm

I'd rather scum be active, I can see why lurkers could be dangerous, but on one hand; they might just be busy. I was lurking just because I wasn't really sure of how to initiate myself. Now however, you can see that I'm not lurking and creating an informative posts. (Relatively. :P )

I fixed that for you. Most of your posts have been very passive or saying that “I’m reading the threat” as I stated before. But you’re starting to improve so I won’t hold it against you too much. How about some more good posts?

I'm in agreement that I'm rather passive, but as I'm just starting out with all of this I'm not really sure what I should be doing. :P

Unfortunately I don't have all that much time to post more than every once in awhile, luckily now I have a bit more time but with school and stuff reaching Its apex with exams; I don't exactly have much free time.   :-\

Quote

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

As god damn well they should be! Lynching is, once again, TOWN’S ONLY POWER IN THIS GAME! Without a lynch we lose while we let mafia pick us off one by one.

I'm going to go ahead and partially agree with this. Yes; lynching is the only power that the town have, but they shouldn't just throw it around, Its like waving a loaded gun and hoping that when you shoot its the not the imposter that is trying to convince you that they are the real person.

You saw that Makeinu the person that was so pro-lynch turned out to be mafia, the problem with the Town's only weapon... It can be easily used against them.

Quote

Still not active enough for my liking. He’s active-lurking right now with one pretty decent post. I implore you to keep posting stuff like that.

I'll do my best to post more.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 09, 2014, 11:08:20 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're doing better about being active, hopefully the new day will inspire you to draw conclusions and ask questions. Can't get a good read yet. Kinda feeling a town vibe, though.

Thank you, I've definitely been trying and have been enjoying playing this game with you all.  :D


Hrm.... So one of the conclusions I'm drawing is that Jembot is a mafia and doesn't happen to be playing at all, another would be that the mafia's target was protected (which is obvious enough). Trying to figure out without lynching a town will be difficult. I guess we just watch and see (When I say we, I mostly mean me. :P ).

Now, my turn to ask questions!

Superblackcat: Who is your most untrusted and trusted player in this game, and why?

MOWE: Same question as SuperBlackCat's.
 

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 10, 2014, 11:35:48 pm

Sinlessmoon:

Most untrusted: Persus. Seriously. He voted me, claimed I bussed makeinu, and then switched his vote twice for whatever reason. He seems to be flailing about and that bothers me.

Most trusted: Mastahcheese, although this doesn't necessarily mean I'll blindly follow him. As I stated before he seems like strong town. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that there's a possibility he's scum, but of the active players, I trust his judgement the most.

Oh, and Nerjin:

Yes. My only case on Jembot was his lurking and that random question, if you can call it a case. The vote was purely for  pressure. When it didn't seem to be working and he seemed to have a legit reason for not posting, I took the vote back and moved on.

((Phone shouldn't be a problem after Monday. :) Figured y'all would want to know!))

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 10, 2014, 11:49:09 pm

I think I'll go ahead and say this.
The very first time I got suspicious of Makeinu was before I started pressing him, but actually when I drew suspicion on Sinlessmoon for lurking, and he instantly voted for him. Which sounds to me like he was hoping for an easy lurker-lynch.
So based on that, I'm fairly certain the Sinlessmoon is town.
He also attempted multiple times to press attention to SBC, so I'm fairly sure that SBC is town.
*After me looking back through*
He also pressured us to go after Jembot quite a bit. Like, quite a lot more than I remembered. Now I'm kind of thinking that Jembot would have been another of Makeinu's lurk-lynch targets.

Quote from: makeinu on December 30, 2013, 11:11:37 am

Oooh, though... I will ask the same question of you, Persus. And, do you think we'll see anywhere near as easy a victory as in Paranormal 23?

This question... When read under the knowledge of Makeinu being scum, the working seems almost... chummy.
I'm suspicious of this, now. But for multiple reasons, drawing to multiple conclusions. This is a WIFOM loaded statement, now.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 10, 2014, 11:35:11 am

[1] Addendum: Since it is now Day 2 it might be a good idea to go back and see who voted whom and why. I would also recommend at least skimming the entirety of day 1 again to see if something sticks out.
-snip-
[2] That right there was beautiful. I didn’t even catch it until after the lynch. Good job on that one.
-snip-
[3] Done and somewhat done. I have some more stuff to say about the second but I’m going to wait until the person is dead before I say that stuff.
-snip-
[4] Pretty damn good for a first timer. Are you sure you’ve not played other places before? That being said don’t let it go to your head. I’m getting a pretty good town-read from you.

[1] Working on this as I'm writing this.
[2] Well, thank you, I was actually thinking of the way you always tell us to use "every weapon at our disposal" when I wrote that.
[3] I'll be waiting for your continuation to that.
[4] I'm positive I've never played this before, but I think it's really fun. And I know, I keep expecting myself to make mistakes.

---

OK. Re-read complete, and dang it, now my head is swimming with too many possibilities.
My reads now as they stand.

•Superblackcat - You and Makeinu just went after each other too much for me to believe that you two are scum buddies, unless you two were both amazing at it. I'm pretty certain you're town.
•Sinlessmoon - Makeinu tried pretty hard at times to get you killed, and if we didn't get that day extension, you very well might be. I think you're town.
•Jembot - As much as you're lurking, the fact that Makeinu attempted, not just once, but multiple times, to switch the focus to you makes you seem a little bit more trustworthy in my eyes. I think you're town.
•Persus13 - You and him also got at odds quite a bit. He seemed to enjoy attempts at striking you down, and you to fight back. I say you're town.
•Pufferfish - DANG IT, pufferfish, I'm sorry, but after the re-read, we keep forgetting you're there, and amazingly, Makeinu didn't try to direct our attention to you, unlike almost everyone else. I'm sorry, but this makes you look scummy. Either you're lurking scum, or you're just useless to us right now. Vote Pufferfish
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - I've had some suspicions about you at times, but at the end of the (game) day, I think you're a townie.
•Nerjin - You're busy, anyone can see that, but I really wish you'd post more. I'm saying you're town, because I have the feeling that if you were scum, you'd be twisting our every thought every way to drive us insane, and you certainly wouldn't forget to send in a NK target. I say town.

I'm saying it's pufferfish. I don't have the strongest argument on that, but right now, it's the best I've got.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 12:01:10 am

Trusted: Mastah
Untrusted: Sin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 12:30:05 am

Alright, so since were doing reads, I'll do mine.

All players, from Town to Scumlike
Mastahcheese-Playing well, helped lead Makeinu lynch, pretty confident is town
SBC-warred with makeinu D1, led makeinu lynch, also pretty confident is town
MOWE-Don't really understand why he hasn't trusted me for the entire game, but voted makeinu, and it didn't really look like a bus. He seems fairly town, even if I disagree with him on what a scumtell is.
Sinlessmoon-seems to be trying to play, and the fact that makeinu seemed to be going for lynching him means I think he may be town
Nerjin-not sure what to think about him. He's been lurking, and has been posting well, but he also voted Sinlessmoon like makeinu. Null read
Jembot-Wish he would post, thinking scum
Puff-also reading scum because of lurking.

The fact that no one besides Makeinu put forward an alternative to Makeinu being lynched in any way, leads me to believe that either Jembot, Puff, or Nerjin is our last scum player.


Tiruin:What's the deal with Pufferfish? Do you know why he's lurking? This doesn't seem normal for him.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 10, 2014, 11:35:48 pm

Most untrusted: Persus. Seriously. He voted me, claimed I bussed makeinu, and then switched his vote twice for whatever reason. He seems to be flailing about and that bothers me.

So, your suspicious of a guy that voted you, then unvoted when you gave a good answer? Here's the thing, your vote on Makeinu was one of the last and came at a time when it seemed like scum would have most likely have voted their buddy to get some town cred. So I pressure voted you and asked you your reasons behind your vote. If you were scum, you might have gotten scared and messed up, or changed the reason why you voted because it was a lie. I unvoted you because you gave a good answer, and also to pursue my top targets, which were the three major lurkers at that moment. This is called pressure voting, and it's a scumhunting strategy that I recommend you should use as well.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 10, 2014, 11:49:09 pm

I think I'll go ahead and say this.
The very first time I got suspicious of Makeinu was before I started pressing him, but actually when I drew suspicion on Sinlessmoon for lurking, and he instantly voted for him. Which sounds to me like he was hoping for an easy lurker-lynch.
So based on that, I'm fairly certain the Sinlessmoon is town.
He also attempted multiple times to press attention to SBC, so I'm fairly sure that SBC is town.
*After me looking back through*
He also pressured us to go after Jembot quite a bit. Like, quite a lot more than I remembered. Now I'm kind of thinking that Jembot would have been another of Makeinu's lurk-lynch targets.

I'd prefer it if you could link to some posts, particularly the stuff related to you and makeinu being suspicious of Sinlessmoon.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 12:01:10 am

Trusted: Mastah
Untrusted: Sin.

That's all you got? No reasons or anything? And why are you so suspicious of Sinlessmoon? The fact that makeinu tried to get him lynched says a lot to me about whether or not he's town. You're currently voting Jembot, do you have any reason to think he's scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 11, 2014, 12:43:03 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 12:30:05 am

I'd prefer it if you could link to some posts, particularly the stuff related to you and makeinu being suspicious of Sinlessmoon.

Ah, yes.
I'll go retrieve those.

My first post of suspicion to SLM.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 09:27:30 pm

Sinlessmoon: Your profile shows you as having been last active at 03:15:59 pm today, after this game started at 10:40:09 am, and you have yet to make your first reply. Please explain yourself.

So as to make you not need to go back to find my earlier question, I'll put it here, as well.

Quote from: mastahcheese on December 30, 2013, 12:11:58 pm

•Sinlessmoon - You're a cop on day 2, the person you examined the night before was the doctor, and they're lurking. Do you try to get them to be more active to keep them alive? How would you go about doing this without starting a bandwagon on them?

In addition, here is Nerjin's blanket question to all of us.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 30, 2013, 12:58:32 pm

What is your experience with mafia? Also, which role would you most want to have and why?

I have checked Jembot and Pufferfish as well, but they both fail to show activity after the game's start, so I can wait.

Then makeinu voting him.

Quote from: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 09:42:28 am

Oi! Sinlessmoon!!

Think you might play this time? We'd love to have you.

Re-reading, He actually did make a post to someone else's question a while before he posted this, so it wasn't immediate but he was the first to vote him.

Nerjin then defended SLM with this.

Quote from: Nerjin on December 31, 2013, 10:44:23 am

A quick step-in here for all of you about lurking: Life happens. It is sort of rude to assume someone's lurking the day the game starts. I, for one, feel that lurking begins at around the time that they haven't posted for two Days.

With makeinu's reply.

Quote from: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 11:05:50 am

Normally, I agree with that, Nerjin, and I was schooled on that by Jim Groovester in Paranormal 23. However, Sinlessmoon is pulling the same behavior as from that same game here.

If he doesn't want to play, that's fine. But signing up, then not showing up while actively posting elsewhere is not cool. Especially in a BM, where the loss of one player to non-participation is very costly.

later, makeinu continued to subtly point out SLM.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 03:09:14 pm

Sinlessmoon:

Hi again. Do you feel like playing today?

You yourself then asked him about his vote, with his reply.

Quote from: makeinu on January 02, 2014, 04:38:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2014, 04:13:03 pm

Makeinu: How's your Sinlessmoon vote going. Why are you voting him now given that that strategy utterly failed last game in terms of getting him to play?

Like shit, obviously, in terms of getting him to play... but I lack a better target for my vote right now, and we don't have another replacement lined up. Unless Imp can join, that is. So, policy lynch at this point.

After all that was when we started pressing him, so he went off that topic.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 12:30:05 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 12:01:10 am

Trusted: Mastah
Untrusted: Sin.

That's all you got? No reasons or anything? And why are you so suspicious of Sinlessmoon? The fact that makeinu tried to get him lynched says a lot to me about whether or not he's town. You're currently voting Jembot, do you have any reason to think he's scum?

Well... mastah lead the lynch before it was popular. so that's why I think he's town.

Sin is here, but he's not participating. And right now, with the activity, it is perfect for that kind of lurker play.

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

I'm voting Jembot to get him to come back

Tiruin, If by Monday, none of them reply (Jem and Puffer) can we get replacements?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 07:39:41 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

Because I felt like poking at it. I like people to actually scumhunt besides just listing who they suspect.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 11, 2014, 11:41:39 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Tiruin, If by Monday, none of them reply (Jem and Puffer) can we get replacements?

I..err, asked Imp--she's totally fine with replacing in, however I am waiting until Monday 9pm, GMT +8 to ensure the force-replacement. I will give Imp free reign to check on who she wants to replace (Jem/Puffin).

Only vote change is Master Cheese voting for Pufferfish. Also I hit writer's block. >:I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 11, 2014, 11:48:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on January 11, 2014, 11:41:39 pm

Also I hit writer's block. >:I

Should I get the spiders?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 12, 2014, 07:54:43 am

Seriously, why is no one talking?

Yesterday, no one pursued a different case than makeinu's, which leads me to believe it was one of the lurkers yesterday who is our second scum.

That gives me Sinlessmoon, Jembot, Pufferfish, and Nerjin as suspects.

Sinlessmoon is someone I doubt to be scum, because he was the lynch case that Makeinu tried to push for most of the day.

Jembot has had four posts, almost all of them answering or asking RVS questions, with his final post promising more content.

Quote from: Jembot on January 05, 2014, 06:10:05 am

I apologise for by lurking thus far, I've been on holidays but I get back tomorrow arvo, at that point I will post a wall of text with all my suspicions thus far

That never materialized.

Pufferfish also has four posts, with three asking and answering RVS questions and one apologizing for lurking and promising future posts. Once again, Pufferfish also failed to deliver.

The problem is that these two have had so little content, I can barely see anything scummy or towny about them. It all comes across as null.

Have to go somewhere, more later.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 12, 2014, 12:49:43 pm

The final lurker of the day is Nerjin, our wonderful IC.

Nerjin has posted 8 times, and has voted once, on Sinlessmoon, which was lead by makeinu. To me, this raises suspicions slightly, even more so when I saw this:

Quote from: Nerjin on December 31, 2013, 10:44:23 am

A quick step-in here for all of you about lurking: Life happens. It is sort of rude to assume someone's lurking the day the game starts. I, for one, feel that lurking begins at around the time that they haven't posted for two Days.

I don't know about you all, but to me that seems suspicious. So when did Nerjin vote Sinlessmoon? In this post:
First, he tells Makeinu:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

At least you’re playing the game. Your focus on Sinless is a bit of a waste of time though. Please try to go towards some more players.

Then he says to Sinlessmoon that:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

You are a liability to town. If you get lynched then you deserve it Sinlessmoon. Either get in here and play or ask for a replacement!

I'm sorry, but that's just hypocritical. Trying to lynch lurkers early D1 is lazy and not cool in my personal opinion. Force a replacement first, then if that fails, go for a lynch ins my personal opinion. While this is to some extent my personal dislike of Lurker Hunters, I think Nerjin deserves my vote.

Also, Nerjin, I'd love to see more questions and hunting and reads besides IC stuff coming from you. What are your thought on Makeinu flipping scum? Who were your top suspects prior to N1? Who are they now?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 1 has begun | Act I: Prelude
Post by: mastahcheese on January 12, 2014, 09:12:48 pm

Yeah, I've run out of leads. I'm fairly convinced that all the active players are town, so I've really got nothing.
BUT, I think I may have found some evidence to possibly rule out Jembot.

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

The main reason that I haven't done much so far is simply lack of time, had a big new years. I've got a bit more spare time now, so I'm going to get out there and scum hunt.

Being busy is fine. Life has a way of doing that. You don't need to tell us you're "going to get out there and scum hunt" now that it's slowed down for you. That's expected. But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Who are your top scum leads? Town? What has given you pause yet?

Quote

Makeinu- It's day one, and you have narrowed your lynching choices down to 2. One has been acting very scummy, but the other has only posted once. Do you lynch the likely scum, or policy lunch the lurker? Why?

Scum lynch. Always scum lynch.

Policy lynch for lurkers is a last-ditch, I've-got-nothing-else, tactic. Yes, lurking looks scummy, already been over that, but lurking isn't by itself a scum-tell.

You need to bringing more to the game, here. The Town needs you.

I bolded the last bit. See how he says "the Town", not "we" or some other term for an association that you're a part of.
Maybe a minor slip, which would indicate that he knew Jembot was Town.

I'm sorry, but that's all I've really got. My only leads are lurking, so there isn't much I can do. I've been pouring through the last day, looking for clues, but I've run out of leads to pursue.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 12, 2014, 10:51:58 pm

We have 2 MLes in case you guys didn't realize, Lets just vote and go with it.

Also, Persus, that post makes you seem to drawing attention away from active people...

You.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 12, 2014, 10:57:48 pm

Ah McCarthyism... Lurker... Communist... It's really the same.

Here's a little fact for you guys: Weekends do not count towards the day's time because people are either busy on the weekend or trying to enjoy their week. For example, I spent a wonderful day with my girlfriend.

I suppose I could tell her "Piss off, I'm playing mafia" but that seems like it'd get me lynched in a rather more literal sense.

I can't speak for the others but I wouldn't call myself a "lurker" but that's up to you to decide. Anyways I should be doing a better post sometime tomorrow. Likely in the PM.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 12, 2014, 10:51:58 pm

We have 2 MLes in case you guys didn't realize, Lets just vote and go with it.

Also, Persus, that post makes you seem to drawing attention away from active people...

You.

Look at the facts, the only lynch case put forward D1 was against Makeinu. No one put forward an alternative. In a normal game there's normally at least two lynch cases D1. My opinion is that if Makeinu had an active scum partner, they would have pushed another case and tried to get someone else lynched, because scum getting lynched D1 is something the scum team doesn't want to happen and can't really afford.

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

As for your accusation about me drawing attention away from active people. Do you think there's a reason to think active people are scum? All the active people voted Makeinu, and they all had slightly separate cases and didn't seem like their bussing. TO me that leads me to believe that you, Mastahcheese, and MOWE are likely town.

More later

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 13, 2014, 08:33:51 am

Here's an alternate theory that illustrates the concept of WIFOM:

Perhaps, bear with me here, one of the people who pressed a case on Makeinu saw that there were several lurkers. They thought to themselves "Hm... Perhaps I can secure my position as 'town' if I bus Makeinu. Obviously none of the lurkers are gonna pop in with anything other than 'Oh yeah Makeinu is scum. Why not?' and thus they talked with Makeinu, drummed up a case, and used that as a reasoning to vote him."

It's not a perfect alternate theory because I have to get going here in a few moments but it is something you might want to think about.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:43:59 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 12, 2014, 10:51:58 pm

We have 2 MLes in case you guys didn't realize, Lets just vote and go with it.

Also, Persus, that post makes you seem to drawing attention away from active people...

You.

So you're saying that I'm trying to draw people's attention away from me by pointing towards lurkers. And since only people against town want to draw attention away from themselves, your also implying I'm scum. So why the FOS? Why not just a vote? And since you seem to think this, why aren't you asking questions about it?

My post on lurkers were focusing on my suspects. Naturally, I wasn't one of my suspects because I know that I'm town. Everyone either knows their town or wants to be known as town, and so will automatically rule themselves out as a suspect when scumhunting. I'm focusing on the lurkers for multiple reasons, and Mastahcheese is pretty much doing the exact same thing as me. I've already given my thoughts on the active players and said that they all seem like town to me. So because of that and that no one pushed an alternative to Makeinu's case, I'm focusing on the lurker players and read through all their posts.

Sinlessmoon:
I haven't heard much from you recently. What are your thoughts on Makeinu's flip? Who do you think is Makeinu's buddy? You planning on going on he offensive at all this game?

Quote from: Nerjin on January 13, 2014, 08:33:51 am

Here's an alternate theory that illustrates the concept of WIFOM:

Perhaps, bear with me here, one of the people who pressed a case on Makeinu saw that there were several lurkers. They thought to themselves "Hm... Perhaps I can secure my position as 'town' if I bus Makeinu. Obviously none of the lurkers are gonna pop in with anything other than 'Oh yeah Makeinu is scum. Why not?' and thus they talked with Makeinu, drummed up a case, and used that as a reasoning to vote him."

It's not a perfect alternate theory because I have to get going here in a few moments but it is something you might want to think about.

I'll agree with you that that's a likely alternate scenario, and I've considered it, but all the active players have seemed fairly town to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 12, 2014, 09:12:48 pm

Yeah, I've run out of leads. I'm fairly convinced that all the active players are town, so I've really got nothing.
BUT, I think I may have found some evidence to possibly rule out Jembot.

Quote from: makeinu on January 03, 2014, 10:35:39 am

Quote from: Jembot on January 03, 2014, 08:18:21 am

The main reason that I haven't done much so far is simply lack of time, had a big new years. I've got a bit more spare time now, so I'm going to get out there and scum hunt.

Being busy is fine. Life has a way of doing that. You don't need to tell us you're "going to get out there and scum hunt" now that it's slowed down for you. That's expected. But it's a little late in the game (literally) to be bringing general RVS questions to the table. Re-read the thread.

Who are your top scum leads? Town? What has given you pause yet?

Quote

Makeinu- It's day one, and you have narrowed your lynching choices down to 2. One has been acting very scummy, but the other has only posted once. Do you lynch the likely scum, or policy lunch the lurker? Why?

Scum lynch. Always scum lynch.

Policy lynch for lurkers is a last-ditch, I've-got-nothing-else, tactic. Yes, lurking looks scummy, already been over that, but lurking isn't by itself a scum-tell.

You need to bringing more to the game, here. The Town needs you.

I bolded the last bit. See how he says "the Town", not "we" or some other term for an association that you're a part of.
Maybe a minor slip, which would indicate that he knew Jembot was Town.

I'm sorry, but that's all I've really got. My only leads are lurking, so there isn't much I can do. I've been pouring through the last day, looking for clues, but I've run out of leads to pursue.

I actually didn't think about it like that. It seems to make sense. It was like he was acknowledging the fact that Jembot was town while makeinu wasn't, if we take into account that makeinu flipped scum.

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 12, 2014, 12:49:43 pm

The final lurker of the day is Nerjin, our wonderful IC.

Nerjin has posted 8 times, and has voted once, on Sinlessmoon, which was lead by makeinu. To me, this raises suspicions slightly, even more so when I saw this:

Quote from: Nerjin on December 31, 2013, 10:44:23 am

A quick step-in here for all of you about lurking: Life happens. It is sort of rude to assume someone's lurking the day the game starts. I, for one, feel that lurking begins at around the time that they haven't posted for two Days.

I don't know about you all, but to me that seems suspicious. So when did Nerjin vote Sinlessmoon? In this post:
First, he tells Makeinu:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

At least you’re playing the game. Your focus on Sinless is a bit of a waste of time though. Please try to go towards some more players.

Then he says to Sinlessmoon that:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 02, 2014, 07:33:41 pm

You are a liability to town. If you get lynched then you deserve it Sinlessmoon. Either get in here and play or ask for a replacement!

I'm sorry, but that's just hypocritical. Trying to lynch lurkers early D1 is lazy and not cool in my personal opinion. Force a replacement first, then if that fails, go for a lynch ins my personal opinion. While this is to some extent my personal dislike of Lurker Hunters, I think Nerjin deserves my vote.

In my opinion, Nerjin seemed to be trying to tell makeinu that spending time trying to get Sinlessmoon to play was useless. I think its still possible to vote a lurker and still focus on the active players, where you'll most likely get more valuable information. Makeinu posted several times trying to get Sinlessmoon to play, and I just think Nerjin found this to be a waste of time. Nerjin didn't seem to linger on Sinlessmoon, which may be because he wasn't here, but that's what I think he meant.

I think all of the active players are town. Judging by everyone's relationships with makeinu on day one. I'll explain in a little more detail.

Sinlessmoon: I think you're trying to post more. Since makeinu appeared to single you out, I can only assume you're town.

Superblackcat: Makeinu fought with you most of day one. I think its safe to say you're town.

Mastahcheese: As I've said before, you seem like very strong town. Judging by the fact that you were one of the first people to make a case against and vote makeinu.

Nerjin: Still not very active, but I highly doubt he's scum.

Now, this leaves me with the two people who have done nothing but lurk. Pufferfish and Jembot.

Jembot: I don't think he's scum because makeinu tried to draw attention to him. And as I illustrated earlier, makeinu practically admitted that he knew Jembot was town.

Pufferfish: Hasn't been there at all. Of the chronic lurkers, he is the one that makeinu didn't call out, perhaps hoping to win this thing himself. This is the best I have at the moment...

Also, I'd like to state something else that sort of helped me in my conclusion that one of the lurkers is probably scum. It's mostly WIFOM, but I think it has some relevance. I believe that what happened with the NK on Night One could be the result of one of two occurrences.

1. The scum went after the obvious target, the mastah of town. And the jailor/doctor/whatever, foreseeing this, protected him. BUT if the scum were smart scum, they'd know this would happen and go after someone else besides the strongest town player.

OR

2. There was no one there to carry out the NK. If one of the lurkers are scum, they wouldn't be around to vote. Thus, no NK. (I assume this can happen. If I'm wrong please correct me.) Thus no NK.

Take this for what you will. It's just a few thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head for a while as I waited until I had the ability to post it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

Well. I'm slightly suspiscious of MOWE, he wasn't really active, and when he did come, Makeinu was just about confirmed.

I haven't seen him before... and he may just have thrown his partner under the bus.

Infact, any of the active people could have done that, but more likely Persus and MOWE, since me and mastah did it before it was 'popular' :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 06:01:10 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

Makeinu was just about confirmed.

What do you mean by this?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

I haven't seen him before... and he may just have thrown his partner under the bus.

How does the first part matter? And is it relevant in any way to the second part?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

In my opinion, Nerjin seemed to be trying to tell makeinu that spending time trying to get Sinlessmoon to play was useless. I think its still possible to vote a lurker and still focus on the active players, where you'll most likely get more valuable information. Makeinu posted several times trying to get Sinlessmoon to play, and I just think Nerjin found this to be a waste of time. Nerjin didn't seem to linger on Sinlessmoon, which may be because he wasn't here, but that's what I think he meant.

Good point, after rereading that, I think I'm agreeing with you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have. I don't think Makeinu was bussed, by MOWE's explanation on the lack of a NK. I don't think an order was sent out, at all. Either that, or it was done incredibly poorly, which would indicate that they weren't actually thinking it out.

Honestly, there's really nothing else for me to say right now, we, as a town, seem to actually be dealing with sitting ducks right now, it's a whole role reversal.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 13, 2014, 10:01:55 pm

[And then filler, but mod is busy and internet shenanigans prevented visiting Bay12 for a day or so]

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - Superblackcat
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - mastahcheese, MyOwnWorstEnemy
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin - Persus13
• Not Voting: Nerjin, 4maskwolf, Sinlessmoon, Imp

Imp has replaced Jembot!
4maskwolf has replaced Pufferfish!

The day has been extended by 48 hours due to replacees and rules!

Votes carry over to the replacee, by the way. :)



Day 2 has begun and will end at January 17, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140117T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 10:05:45 pm

I shouldn't be voting two different people. I last voted Nerjin. Also, more than two people are voting currently.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 13, 2014, 10:09:06 pm

Fixed! Was busy modifying when you posted. Thanks! :)

And I just started a new page. :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 10:13:24 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 06:01:10 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

Makeinu was just about confirmed.

What do you mean by this?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

I haven't seen him before... and he may just have thrown his partner under the bus.

How does the first part matter? And is it relevant in any way to the second part?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

In my opinion, Nerjin seemed to be trying to tell makeinu that spending time trying to get Sinlessmoon to play was useless. I think its still possible to vote a lurker and still focus on the active players, where you'll most likely get more valuable information. Makeinu posted several times trying to get Sinlessmoon to play, and I just think Nerjin found this to be a waste of time. Nerjin didn't seem to linger on Sinlessmoon, which may be because he wasn't here, but that's what I think he meant.

Good point, after rereading that, I think I'm agreeing with you.

1) confirmed to be lynched

2) I do not know his style really


WELCOME IMP AND WOLF! WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU MOVED IN, AND THE GAME THUS FAR.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 13, 2014, 10:45:50 pm

I am a silly fox and rawr :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 13, 2014, 10:51:06 pm

Hey all!  Posting from work.  College started today, work is ongoing, but my life is more or less getting back on a manageable track and staying there.  I get off work in a bit less than 2 hours, but I have been keeping up with the thread and I'll be posting later tonight.  Saw I was in, saw this question, so starting now.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 10:13:24 pm

WELCOME IMP AND WOLF!

HI SUPERBLACKCAT!  GLAD TO PLAY IN A GAME WITH YOU AGAIN TOO!

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 10:13:24 pm

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU MOVED IN, AND THE GAME THUS FAR.

Gembot should have posted more, but that goes for all lurkers.  Game itself is interesting.  I'm glad I get to experience being a replacement and see if its very different from being a starting player.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 13, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

Just remember, I will be watching all of you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 14, 2014, 01:57:51 am

Alright, you two. The people you guys replaced were about 5 seconds from being lynched. My decision on that has yet to change.

4maskwolf and Imp:

What are your initial thoughts from Makeinu's flip as scum?
What are your reads on everybody thus far?
Who do you find most suspicious right now? Why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: makeinu on January 14, 2014, 02:14:38 am

Quick IC post, don't have time for more just yet.

One of the dangers you all face when dealing with heavy lurkers is falling prey to Confirmation Bias, commonly called tunneling because you get tunnel vision. You miss seeing things that are plain in front of your face because they fail to uphold what you already believe to be true.

Scum can use this to their advantage very easily, and will.

Question your preconceptions, reevaluate your assessments, all the time. Don't be afraid to be wrong.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 14, 2014, 07:54:05 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 14, 2014, 01:57:51 am

Alright, you two. The people you guys replaced were about 5 seconds from being lynched. My decision on that has yet to change.

4maskwolf and Imp:

What are your initial thoughts from Makeinu's flip as scum?
What are your reads on everybody thus far?
Who do you find most suspicious right now? Why?

I'll be wanting to se your answers too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 09:49:57 am

I'll post my answers to those questions by 10 pm forum time, I've got a lot on my plate today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 14, 2014, 01:57:19 pm

Silly me! I forgot about Persus in my reads yesterday. :P

Persus: I highly doubt you're scum at this point. Although makeinu's recent IC advice made me rethink everything, I still find nothing really scummy about you. Your vote on makeinu seemed very solid and you quarreled with him quite a bit.

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 13, 2014, 05:53:17 pm

Well. I'm slightly suspiscious of MOWE, he wasn't really active, and when he did come, Makeinu was just about confirmed.

I haven't seen him before... and he may just have thrown his partner under the bus.

Infact, any of the active people could have done that, but more likely Persus and MOWE, since me and mastah did it before it was 'popular' :P

The reason I became active is that I'd been afraid to say anything and after Nerjin urged all of us on, I reread the thread and started to form my own opinions on people. I didn't just pop in, vote, and leave. I've been continuously trying to stay active since then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 02:53:08 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 14, 2014, 01:57:51 am

Alright, you two. The people you guys replaced were about 5 seconds from being lynched. My decision on that has yet to change.

4maskwolf and Imp:

What are your initial thoughts from Makeinu's flip as scum?
What are your reads on everybody thus far?
Who do you find most suspicious right now? Why?

1. It's good we got a scum the first time through, but we can't let up the hunt.  There is still one more scum out there, and if I read the OP correctly he/she is the more powerful of the two, when it comes to abilities, as he/she can seek out the power role(s) that the town still has.  Of course, I could have read that wrong and we eliminated the other mafioso.
2. I'm posting this before having read through absolutely everything, but I get the impression that mastahcheese is town: his questions seemed rather pointed and he was the first one to be highly active on the thread.  Imp, I have my eye on you, and MOWE, because he came in at the last minute and suddenly became active.
3. I just answered this question while answering the previous question.

Another thing to take note of is the fact that with one mafioso dead, the other one will be incapable of bussing anyone else.  Without a more thorough analysis, I don't know what to make of this, perhaps you all could figure something out.

Now, MOWE: Why were you afraid to say anything?  Was it that you didn't want to be painted as scum, or, as I suspect, that you are scum and wanted to lay low until everyone lynched your buddy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 14, 2014, 03:09:53 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 14, 2014, 01:57:51 am

What are your initial thoughts from Makeinu's flip as scum?

I think makeinu was a good catch.  I didn't like his willingness to policy lynch combined with his 'I'm more IC than player' posting stance (my thoughts on lynching lurkers are they are a necessary choice, -unless- there's a more likely Scum choice.  People that cannot be read and will not act may or may not be Scum, and if that read is the scummiest read in the game, -then- you lynch the lurker(s), but you talk intently with everyone and get a feel of everyone who is interacting, then you make your choice.  My thoughts on an IC - lead by example.  Be what a player should be, absolutely and totally - I'm very, very hard on ICs who do not do this... witness my play BM42 towards Deathsword and especially Tiruin who replaced in for Deathsword), but I wasn't highly suspicious of makeinu until I saw how he reacted to mastahcheese's challenges about why makeinu would recommend limiting a player's weapons, and makeinu's dodgyness about addressing the challenge of how he was showing the Scumplay he described.

I guess, being Scum, makeinu did do what I expect an IC to do.... but he did it backwards.   That's not exactly the sort of lesson I think an IC should teach either - then again, I'm unfit as yet to be an IC myself (per Jim, who has the experience to know), so maybe I'll come to understand I'm wrong about what I think about IC behavior as I learn more.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 14, 2014, 01:57:51 am

What are your reads on everybody thus far?
Who do you find most suspicious right now? Why?

I'm posting from work, fell asleep at my computer last night as I was trying to reread the thread and make my post.  Got 10 hours of sleep last night, bodes well for me being awake enough to be alert and able to play tonight.  The time I can take from work comes in little snippets, not so good for proper rereading and deep focus.

A brief, partial answer:

I worry about Nerjin's style.  He started it, that I know of, three games ago and after being lynched D1 for having defended another player and having not really appeared to have been Scumhunting very much (Nerjin was human that game), and I worry that he uses this style as 'armor' now.  He's not 'taking risks', he's not reaching out and interacting much, he's not setting the level of example I expect an IC to - granted, I'm learning more and more how life can interfere with play.

I'm bothered by 4maskwolf's opening comment.  Glad he said some form of 'I am here', but that's essentially all he said.  Aha, and I see as I was typing this he's posted more, that helps.

I'm most comfortable with mastahcheese's approach and playstyle, when I read a game I'm not in I try to pick someone's perspective as my own.  mastahcheese has been 'me' for me this game before I knew if I was going to replace anyone.

All I've got time for now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 14, 2014, 04:35:12 pm

Wolf:

As I've stated in earlier posts, I was afraid of looking like an idiot. I've only been a member of this forum for like two months. I don't know anyone and it's scary as hell. But with the encouragement of the other players, I'm not so afraid anymore. If I end up looking like a total ass, well at least we all get a laugh and I learn from it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 05:17:16 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 14, 2014, 04:35:12 pm

Wolf:

As I've stated in earlier posts, I was afraid of looking like an idiot. I've only been a member of this forum for like two months. I don't know anyone and it's scary as hell. But with the encouragement of the other players, I'm not so afraid anymore. If I end up looking like a total ass, well at least we all get a laugh and I learn from it.

I just checked your profile, and it confirms your entry date to the forum.  While that is certainly a reasonable answer, I have not been a member of the forums much longer than you have, so I'm not necessarily inclined to remove my vote.  However, should that be the case, I have found that this is one of the nicer forums on the internet, with a few exceptions, so don't be concerned about putting yourself out there.

Imp

My lack of a greeting was due to the fact that my hard drive got fried on my computer, so I was posting from my iPod touch.  I've been posting the longer updates from school computers, but I should get my computer back today or tomorrow and be able to take a more active role.
What about you?  You seemed QUITE eager to post as much as possible, despite obstacles.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 02:25:19 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:43:59 am

Sinlessmoon:
I haven't heard much from you recently. What are your thoughts on Makeinu's flip? Who do you think is Makeinu's buddy? You planning on going on he offensive at all this game?

Yeah, I haven't had much time recently, what with exams coming up. Gotta crack down on some assignments!

As for that, I thought Makeinu would be scum; just one of those things that nags at the back of your head, and he seemed very eager to draw suspicion onto other players. I'm thinking I might go on the offensive soon, consider casting my vote on some suspicious people.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Nerjin, in most of your posts, you're making a reasonable appraisal of each player's style and actions. They are nice summaries, and you include a tidbit or two of personal advice, some praise or scolding, and very rarely a non-rhetorical/non 'where are you' question for someone.

Ironically, this is pretty useful for a game of beginners, but it was while I read it here in the first beginner's game I've seen it in, that I realized you're not just doing this because it's a beginner game.  This is -you-, your new playstyle as of the recent BYOR.  So I tried to read into it, to taste your intention and goals - and it feels to me like you are only trying to honestly evaluate play.  Not leaning towards catching Scum, not leaning towards expressing yourself, everything I feel from your words and intention as I read your posts is the honest desire to present an accurate assessment of how others are playing.

What I really do not feel is anything other than an attempt to evaluate and give feedback.  This is giving me an astonishingly null read of you!  While it's neat to have a referee calling out the plays, commentating, and in a sense awarding points; a summary of what you think of everyone is quite important to share but that's more often done at a day's end, after direct and often personal interaction, not primarily observation and reaction without that direct interaction.

Is this style something you're still experimenting with and figuring out how to use?  Would you recommend it to others?  How much of it feels like Scumhunting to you, and how much reporting observations and providing feedback?  Or is reporting and feedback a major part of Scumhunting?  Can you suggest how your style could be read to interpret it for intent and alignment?  It really looks like a wall to me this game.

Cat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

Quote from: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 07:39:41 pm

Because I felt like poking at it. I like people to actually scumhunt besides just listing who they suspect.

Which him and what it are you referring to here?

Persus13 thought you meant his question to you, about your reasons for your unexplained suspicions, and you don't appear to have followed up with either Persus or Sinlessmoon after this point, though your next post:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 12, 2014, 10:51:58 pm

We have 2 MLes in case you guys didn't realize, Lets just vote and go with it.

Also, Persus, that post makes you seem to drawing attention away from active people...

You.

You previously said:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

I'm voting Jembot to get him to come back

and

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Sin is here, but he's not participating. And right now, with the activity, it is perfect for that kind of lurker play.

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

If those are both about Sin, then you're pretty much paying attention to less actives too.

Before that, you... is this a joke?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 06:35:40 pm

Obviously, both the ICs are scum!

BURN THEM!

but despite challenging Nerjin the post before:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:23:45 pm

Nerjin: So you say you read through our posts? Did you actually read through our posts? Since I voted him for that. Yes. But if you didn't see, I stayed on him for multiple reasons, that kept compounding as the game went on.

You tell Nerjin he's wrong and challenge him for not reading (or understanding you).

Now, Nerjin doesn't react to this, at least he hasn't yet, though he has posted since - his next two posts explain weekend time and visits WIFOM and alternate theories.  This is interesting, he broke his defensive style, but he didn't do it to Scumhunt, he did it primarily to teach small quick lessons (with a mention about where his time is going, quite legitimate that he doesn't have weekend time for the game right now)

But Nerjin doesn't touch Superblackcat's challenge, at least yet.  And Cat doesn't revisit this either, at least yet.

Why not, Cat?

And Cat, what's wrong with Persus13 presenting a case against the lurkers?  How does that case draw attention away from the actives, there's not enough attention to go around and consider everyone?  How was Persus's presentation of his thoughts worse than your more veiled statements of suspicion and use of vote that came before it, worse than mastahcheese's consideration of the lurkers, and that of MOWE who posted after your question?  Why'd you not follow up on your challenge to Persus, or challenge the others on the same issue?

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

4maskwolf

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 02:53:08 pm

Another thing to take note of is the fact that with one mafioso dead, the other one will be incapable of bussing anyone else.  Without a more thorough analysis, I don't know what to make of this, perhaps you all could figure something out.

It's fine that you haven't thoroughly analyzed this, but please explain what general significance you think that the remaining Scum being unable to bus anyone else has?

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 05:17:16 pm

Imp

My lack of a greeting was due to the fact that my hard drive got fried on my computer, so I was posting from my iPod touch.  I've been posting the longer updates from school computers, but I should get my computer back today or tomorrow and be able to take a more active role.
What about you?  You seemed QUITE eager to post as much as possible, despite obstacles.

Lack of a greeting....

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 13, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

Just remember, I will be watching all of you.

Then what's that, if not a greeting?  Telling us you're here, implying that you intend to play - but not actually doing anything other than saying hi in a creative way.  That's what I challenged you about...

Quote from: Imp on January 14, 2014, 03:09:53 pm

I'm bothered by 4maskwolf's opening comment.  Glad he said some form of 'I am here', but that's essentially all he said.

Good to know why you only 'touched base' as it were.  But if that wasn't a greeting to you - what was it?

As for myself, I am indeed QUITE eager to play.  Life's getting in the way, but I'm still very new to Mafia; my first game of any sort of Mafia was BM43, the one that preceded this one (not the Sprint).  I've only played 4 games before this one.  Play requires posting; day 2 is getting late.  This is my first chance to be a replacement that actually replaced in, and I'm replacing someone who was almost silent in a game with around a 40-50% low activity rate.  And I am, life permitting, highly active.

Heck, my first game people were naming my posts (because of their length, not quality, alas.  Maybe the other, someday) and even timing the game as before and after certain of my posts.  I'm not -trying- for that, mind you.  But 'eager' is a great description of me, yes.

However I couldn't care less about how frequently or rarely I post - so long as I get to play with the greatest depth and intensity possible, and the frequency is enough to get the job done - there's Scum to catch, and I don't expect one to catch itself.  I very much want to be part of the process - I'm here to play and play the very, very best I can, and I'm quite annoyed that life's demands are interfering with my playtime here!

Sinlessmoon Exams already?  Ouch.  For me the semester barely has started.  How much time do you believe you'll have for this game; do you intend to replace or will you be able to interact with us fairly frequently? 

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:04 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 02:53:08 pm

2. I'm posting this before having read through absolutely everything, but I get the impression that mastahcheese is town: his questions seemed rather pointed and he was the first one to be highly active on the thread.  Imp, I have my eye on you, and MOWE, because he came in at the last minute and suddenly became active.

Interesting point. It's very similar to one previously stated by SBC.

Also, what is your previous experience with Mafia?

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 02:25:19 am

As for that, I thought Makeinu would be scum; just one of those things that nags at the back of your head, and he seemed very eager to draw suspicion onto other players. I'm thinking I might go on the offensive soon, consider casting my vote on some suspicious people.

Good to hear. Offensive town play is usually better than defensive town play.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Cat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

Quote from: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 07:39:41 pm

Because I felt like poking at it. I like people to actually scumhunt besides just listing who they suspect.

Which him and what it are you referring to here?

Him is Sinlessmoon, and It was the post where SBC responded to a question about who he trusted the least and most with four words:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 12:01:10 am

Trusted: Mastah
Untrusted: Sin.

Since he didn't back his assertions up at all, I went after him for it.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Persus13 thought you meant his question to you, about your reasons for your unexplained suspicions, and you don't appear to have followed up with either Persus or Sinlessmoon after this point, though your next post:

And if you knew the answer to your question, why was the question relevant?
 

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I am NOT ruling out active players solely because they're active, I'm ruling out the active players because for the most part I have town reads from them (I'm slightly suspicious of MOWE and SBC seems to be playing badly), but because the absence of an alternative to the Makeinu lynch makes the lurkers scummy.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

This is my first chance to be a replacement that actually replaced in, and I'm replacing someone who was almost silent in a game with around a 40-50% low activity rate.  And I am, life permitting, highly active.

Good to hear, and judging by your Wall of Text, you're back to top form.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 15, 2014, 12:20:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:04 am

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Persus13 thought you meant his question to you, about your reasons for your unexplained suspicions, and you don't appear to have followed up with either Persus or Sinlessmoon after this point, though your next post:

And if you knew the answer to your question, why was the question relevant?

I knew your answer to Cat's question/the question I asked Cat.  There's so little follow through from Cat, I'm not sure if what Cat asked is what you answered.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:04 am

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph.

I'm referring back to Mr.Zero of your and my BM43, where I was challenged by a few people for not really interacting with him much.  I struggled to find a way to explain that satisfied anyone (judging from how I kept being asked about it by over half the players across most of the game), but in essence it was because I saw him as solidly Town, especially compared to everyone else in play. 

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 12:54:19 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:04 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 02:53:08 pm

2. I'm posting this before having read through absolutely everything, but I get the impression that mastahcheese is town: his questions seemed rather pointed and he was the first one to be highly active on the thread.  Imp, I have my eye on you, and MOWE, because he came in at the last minute and suddenly became active.

Interesting point. It's very similar to one previously stated by SBC.

Also, what is your previous experience with Mafia?

My previous experience on these forums is lacking, but I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.

And Imp, after reading your responses to me I realized that I had misinterpreted your statement.  Yes, it was a greeting.  The reason I had not posted MORE of a greeting was the fact that my computer's hard drive failed.

My comment about the lack of bussing has no relevance AS OF YET.  It was merely another lens to look at the game through.  Perhaps I am trying to overanalyze, but it's my first game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 02:08:52 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.
I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I, too, would like to hear the answer to this.  While I have ruled out MastahCheese as a suspect, I don't follow how you managed to rule out the others and decide to pin the blame on lurkers.  Yes, lurking is a minor scumtell: however, there were, as you said, four lurkers, and only one mafioso.  It isn't possible that all of the lurkers were mafia, so how did you select the individual ones to single out and eliminate?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 02:15:58 pm

Also, until further evidence has been gathered, I have decided to unvote

The logic behind this:

I have still yet to have the time to examine everyone in depth, what with exams next week for me.  In the face of an accusation, MOWE gave a logical, reasoned response, indicating either more cunning than I give beginners credit for or a fair, reasoned response of a townie.  While I only consider lurking, particularly to the point of replacement, to be a MINOR scumtell, it is nonetheless logical that one of the lurkers would have been the scum in this situation.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 03:39:30 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Sinlessmoon Exams already?  Ouch.  For me the semester barely has started.  How much time do you believe you'll have for this game; do you intend to replace or will you be able to interact with us fairly frequently?

Yeah, my semester is just ending for me. I don't think I'll replace, but I definitely won't have time for large posts. I will however come and check in on things frequently.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 15, 2014, 04:24:25 pm

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I couldn't find anything extremely scummy about any of the active players. I'm most suspicious of Persus because of how he seemed to struggle with his focus near the beginning. However, I couldn't find anything particularly scummy about him. I could see the sense in mastahcheese's argument that Pufferfish was the scummiest player because he wasn't there and was the only chronic lurker that makeinu didn't attack for lurking. I haven't completely ruled out the active players, but at the time, this was the only lead I had.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 05:19:43 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 15, 2014, 04:24:25 pm

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I couldn't find anything extremely scummy about any of the active players. I'm most suspicious of Persus because of how he seemed to struggle with his focus near the beginning. However, I couldn't find anything particularly scummy about him. I could see the sense in mastahcheese's argument that Pufferfish was the scummiest player because he wasn't there and was the only chronic lurker that makeinu didn't attack for lurking. I haven't completely ruled out the active players, but at the time, this was the only lead I had.

My only retort to that is that Makeinu was rather focused on saving his own hide from being skinned (which he failed at), so he was less likely to notice all of the lurkers.  Also, if he was already going down, why would he draw attention to a fellow Mafioso in such a blatant way?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 15, 2014, 06:26:00 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Nerjin, in most of your posts, you're making a reasonable appraisal of each player's style and actions. They are nice summaries, and you include a tidbit or two of personal advice, some praise or scolding, and very rarely a non-rhetorical/non 'where are you' question for someone.

Ironically, this is pretty useful for a game of beginners, but it was while I read it here in the first beginner's game I've seen it in, that I realized you're not just doing this because it's a beginner game.  This is -you-, your new playstyle as of the recent BYOR.  So I tried to read into it, to taste your intention and goals - and it feels to me like you are only trying to honestly evaluate play.  Not leaning towards catching Scum, not leaning towards expressing yourself, everything I feel from your words and intention as I read your posts is the honest desire to present an accurate assessment of how others are playing.

What I really do not feel is anything other than an attempt to evaluate and give feedback.  This is giving me an astonishingly null read of you!  While it's neat to have a referee calling out the plays, commentating, and in a sense awarding points; a summary of what you think of everyone is quite important to share but that's more often done at a day's end, after direct and often personal interaction, not primarily observation and reaction without that direct interaction.

Is this style something you're still experimenting with and figuring out how to use?  Would you recommend it to others?  How much of it feels like Scumhunting to you, and how much reporting observations and providing feedback?  Or is reporting and feedback a major part of Scumhunting?  Can you suggest how your style could be read to interpret it for intent and alignment?  It really looks like a wall to me this game.

Cat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

Quote from: Persus13 on January 11, 2014, 07:39:41 pm

Because I felt like poking at it. I like people to actually scumhunt besides just listing who they suspect.

Which him and what it are you referring to here?

Persus13 thought you meant his question to you, about your reasons for your unexplained suspicions, and you don't appear to have followed up with either Persus or Sinlessmoon after this point, though your next post:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 12, 2014, 10:51:58 pm

We have 2 MLes in case you guys didn't realize, Lets just vote and go with it.

Also, Persus, that post makes you seem to drawing attention away from active people...

You.

You previously said:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

I'm voting Jembot to get him to come back

and

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 11, 2014, 01:36:32 am

Sin is here, but he's not participating. And right now, with the activity, it is perfect for that kind of lurker play.

Also, did you have to Persus? Why couldn't you let him poke at it!

If those are both about Sin, then you're pretty much paying attention to less actives too.

Before that, you... is this a joke?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 06:35:40 pm

Obviously, both the ICs are scum!

BURN THEM!

but despite challenging Nerjin the post before:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:23:45 pm

Nerjin: So you say you read through our posts? Did you actually read through our posts? Since I voted him for that. Yes. But if you didn't see, I stayed on him for multiple reasons, that kept compounding as the game went on.

You tell Nerjin he's wrong and challenge him for not reading (or understanding you).

Now, Nerjin doesn't react to this, at least he hasn't yet, though he has posted since - his next two posts explain weekend time and visits WIFOM and alternate theories.  This is interesting, he broke his defensive style, but he didn't do it to Scumhunt, he did it primarily to teach small quick lessons (with a mention about where his time is going, quite legitimate that he doesn't have weekend time for the game right now)

But Nerjin doesn't touch Superblackcat's challenge, at least yet.  And Cat doesn't revisit this either, at least yet.

Why not, Cat?

And Cat, what's wrong with Persus13 presenting a case against the lurkers?  How does that case draw attention away from the actives, there's not enough attention to go around and consider everyone?  How was Persus's presentation of his thoughts worse than your more veiled statements of suspicion and use of vote that came before it, worse than mastahcheese's consideration of the lurkers, and that of MOWE who posted after your question?  Why'd you not follow up on your challenge to Persus, or challenge the others on the same issue?

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

4maskwolf

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 02:53:08 pm

Another thing to take note of is the fact that with one mafioso dead, the other one will be incapable of bussing anyone else.  Without a more thorough analysis, I don't know what to make of this, perhaps you all could figure something out.

It's fine that you haven't thoroughly analyzed this, but please explain what general significance you think that the remaining Scum being unable to bus anyone else has?

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 05:17:16 pm

Imp

My lack of a greeting was due to the fact that my hard drive got fried on my computer, so I was posting from my iPod touch.  I've been posting the longer updates from school computers, but I should get my computer back today or tomorrow and be able to take a more active role.
What about you?  You seemed QUITE eager to post as much as possible, despite obstacles.

Lack of a greeting....

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 13, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

Just remember, I will be watching all of you.

Then what's that, if not a greeting?  Telling us you're here, implying that you intend to play - but not actually doing anything other than saying hi in a creative way.  That's what I challenged you about...

Quote from: Imp on January 14, 2014, 03:09:53 pm

I'm bothered by 4maskwolf's opening comment.  Glad he said some form of 'I am here', but that's essentially all he said.

Good to know why you only 'touched base' as it were.  But if that wasn't a greeting to you - what was it?

As for myself, I am indeed QUITE eager to play.  Life's getting in the way, but I'm still very new to Mafia; my first game of any sort of Mafia was BM43, the one that preceded this one (not the Sprint).  I've only played 4 games before this one.  Play requires posting; day 2 is getting late.  This is my first chance to be a replacement that actually replaced in, and I'm replacing someone who was almost silent in a game with around a 40-50% low activity rate.  And I am, life permitting, highly active.

Heck, my first game people were naming my posts (because of their length, not quality, alas.  Maybe the other, someday) and even timing the game as before and after certain of my posts.  I'm not -trying- for that, mind you.  But 'eager' is a great description of me, yes.

However I couldn't care less about how frequently or rarely I post - so long as I get to play with the greatest depth and intensity possible, and the frequency is enough to get the job done - there's Scum to catch, and I don't expect one to catch itself.  I very much want to be part of the process - I'm here to play and play the very, very best I can, and I'm quite annoyed that life's demands are interfering with my playtime here!

Sinlessmoon Exams already?  Ouch.  For me the semester barely has started.  How much time do you believe you'll have for this game; do you intend to replace or will you be able to interact with us fairly frequently?

Imp, On the lack of follow-ups, is that I rarely have the time to take notes, and I usually don't exactly remember what I say. In fact, thanks for reminding me :P.

I wasn't really asking him a question. I was just... I dunno, joking around? Telling him that I don't actually just jump in and post 4 words on a regular basis, and this was trying to get a reaction?

The way Persus said it, sounded like. "Active people are pretty much comfirmed town IMO, I'm active btw. Lets lynch these lurkers." I understand his reasoning, but that seems to be trying to not get found out himself.

Also, I really don't think that both ICs would be... scum. Just from the standpoint of a BM game, even given that Tiruin rolled for it, I would think she would reroll, because none of the new player gets as much help/ scum experience. And there is no point for the scum IC really. But that's all meta gaming.

I would like Nerjin to answer it. Please and thank you.

Also, 4maskwolf: That's were you come in. Persus will be especially keeping an eye on you two, since you two replaced in. If you guys slip up! Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas, and may that ditch be comfortable!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 12:47:59 am

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Before that, you... is this a joke?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 06:35:40 pm

Obviously, both the ICs are scum!

BURN THEM!

I'm pretty sure this was a joke, SBC seems to be rather light-hearted, and it was actually a rather innocent jest that got me to crack down on Makeinu, after all, so I'm fine with it.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I'm fairly certain. I'll go ahead and give my reasons for them.

•Superblackcat - SBC was technically the first person to vote Makeinu. He did a lot of work on tunneling him, and getting him to slip up and give not just himself, but others great openings to attack. He and Makeinu were at odds almost the entire game.
•Sinlessmoon - Makeinu attempted to throw SLM under the gallows more than anyone ought to try for a simple policy lynch. And not just once, but multiple times attempted to redirect the subject towards that. I don't think he'd have tried that hard for a D1 bus attempt.
•Imp - You replaced Jembot. There are two things currently going for you on my radar. 1, Makeinu's attempts to throw suspicion at Jembot, and the possible slip I mentioned earlier.
•Persus13 - Persus is doing a pretty good job of hunting and being aggressive. At first, I thought they were a little reactive, but the ferocity of which they attack openings and opportunities convince me otherwise. Particularly the new posts since you two have replaced in have given me hope.
•4maskwolf - You replaced Pufferfish, who I'm still convinced is the most probable scum. Your recent answers haven't been much to persuade me otherwise, as I actually opened up a tab to reply to some of what you've said earlier, and realized that you didn't really leave me with much to question.
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - Lacking confidence, but I can see it coming through now. MOWE has made some good arguments and reasoning's, and I trust their logic.
•Nerjin - I don't know what to say about Nerjin. But I don't get the "scum" vibe from him. I said way back toward the start of the game that's been more interested in being a teacher, rather than a leader.

Sort of put my whole reads in that, but I doubt you'll mind.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I'm not sure if it's just in the way that you word this, but I'm having a lot of trouble reading and interpreting this.

Overall, it's hard for me to read through your posts because you're very wordy with your responses.
This isn't a bad thing, it just takes me a re-read or two.

4maskwolf:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 05:19:43 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 15, 2014, 04:24:25 pm

I couldn't find anything extremely scummy about any of the active players. I'm most suspicious of Persus because of how he seemed to struggle with his focus near the beginning. However, I couldn't find anything particularly scummy about him. I could see the sense in mastahcheese's argument that Pufferfish was the scummiest player because he wasn't there and was the only chronic lurker that makeinu didn't attack for lurking. I haven't completely ruled out the active players, but at the time, this was the only lead I had.

My only retort to that is that [1] Makeinu was rather focused on saving his own hide from being skinned (which he failed at), so [2] he was less likely to notice all of the lurkers.  [3] Also, if he was already going down, why would he draw attention to a fellow Mafioso in such a blatant way?

[1] How would you know if he was focused on that? It sure seemed that way, but if I, myself, were in that position, I'd care less about saving myself and more about keeping Town from finding my scumbuddy. Particularly, if you look toward the end of the day, he didn't really post all that much anymore. It was like he just gave up. By the end, he had just accepted it, he didn't go down kicking and screaming like you'd expect.
[2] I'd like to argue this point. Quite a lot, in fact. He pointed attention to Sinlessmoon numerous times, he pointed attention to Jembot on multiple occasions, he pointed Nerjin on several posts. I seem to remember him also going after MOWE and possibly even Persus at times. In fact, I'd beg to argue that he was the most aware of lurkers then entire game.
[3] It wasn't blatant. In fact, it seemed to me that he actually might have put that one reference in there so that your argument could be made. He didn't point out Pufferfish because he was his buddy, and it started to dawn on him that he'd been singling out lurkers the whole time, and forgot him, so pointed it out that one time just to seem like he didn't forget him.

And MOWE wasn't even making any form of attack, why are you suddenly defending Makeinu?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:00:17 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 12:47:59 am

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Before that, you... is this a joke?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 06:35:40 pm

Obviously, both the ICs are scum!

BURN THEM!

I'm pretty sure this was a joke, SBC seems to be rather light-hearted, and it was actually a rather innocent jest that got me to crack down on Makeinu, after all, so I'm fine with it.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

MOWE, Persus13, and mastahcheese

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm

I think all of the active players are town.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 13, 2014, 07:03:12 pm

Alright, I think we've ruled out active people by now, or at least I have.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:01:35 am

To me, the lack of another case means that one of the four lurkers was Makeinu's scumbuddy.

How certain are each of you that the most active players are ruled out as Scum?  I completely agree with voting, and focusing, on the most scummy player(s), but in what you say, all three of you sound like you are done with everyone except a narrow pool of suspects, all of whom have been less responsive or completely silent throughout most of the game.

I'm fairly certain. I'll go ahead and give my reasons for them.

•Superblackcat - SBC was technically the first person to vote Makeinu. He did a lot of work on tunneling him, and getting him to slip up and give not just himself, but others great openings to attack. He and Makeinu were at odds almost the entire game.
•Sinlessmoon - Makeinu attempted to throw SLM under the gallows more than anyone ought to try for a simple policy lynch. And not just once, but multiple times attempted to redirect the subject towards that. I don't think he'd have tried that hard for a D1 bus attempt.
•Imp - You replaced Jembot. There are two things currently going for you on my radar. 1, Makeinu's attempts to throw suspicion at Jembot, and the possible slip I mentioned earlier.
•Persus13 - Persus is doing a pretty good job of hunting and being aggressive. At first, I thought they were a little reactive, but the ferocity of which they attack openings and opportunities convince me otherwise. Particularly the new posts since you two have replaced in have given me hope.
•4maskwolf - You replaced Pufferfish, who I'm still convinced is the most probable scum. Your recent answers haven't been much to persuade me otherwise, as I actually opened up a tab to reply to some of what you've said earlier, and realized that you didn't really leave me with much to question.
•MyOwnWorstEnemy - Lacking confidence, but I can see it coming through now. MOWE has made some good arguments and reasoning's, and I trust their logic.
•Nerjin - I don't know what to say about Nerjin. But I don't get the "scum" vibe from him. I said way back toward the start of the game that's been more interested in being a teacher, rather than a leader.

Sort of put my whole reads in that, but I doubt you'll mind.

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I'm not sure if it's just in the way that you word this, but I'm having a lot of trouble reading and interpreting this.

Overall, it's hard for me to read through your posts because you're very wordy with your responses.
This isn't a bad thing, it just takes me a re-read or two.

4maskwolf:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 05:19:43 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 15, 2014, 04:24:25 pm

I couldn't find anything extremely scummy about any of the active players. I'm most suspicious of Persus because of how he seemed to struggle with his focus near the beginning. However, I couldn't find anything particularly scummy about him. I could see the sense in mastahcheese's argument that Pufferfish was the scummiest player because he wasn't there and was the only chronic lurker that makeinu didn't attack for lurking. I haven't completely ruled out the active players, but at the time, this was the only lead I had.

My only retort to that is that [1] Makeinu was rather focused on saving his own hide from being skinned (which he failed at), so [2] he was less likely to notice all of the lurkers.  [3] Also, if he was already going down, why would he draw attention to a fellow Mafioso in such a blatant way?

[1] How would you know if he was focused on that? It sure seemed that way, but if I, myself, were in that position, I'd care less about saving myself and more about keeping Town from finding my scumbuddy. Particularly, if you look toward the end of the day, he didn't really post all that much anymore. It was like he just gave up. By the end, he had just accepted it, he didn't go down kicking and screaming like you'd expect.
[2] I'd like to argue this point. Quite a lot, in fact. He pointed attention to Sinlessmoon numerous times, he pointed attention to Jembot on multiple occasions, he pointed Nerjin on several posts. I seem to remember him also going after MOWE and possibly even Persus at times. In fact, I'd beg to argue that he was the most aware of lurkers then entire game.
[3] It wasn't blatant. In fact, it seemed to me that he actually might have put that one reference in there so that your argument could be made. He didn't point out Pufferfish because he was his buddy, and it started to dawn on him that he'd been singling out lurkers the whole time, and forgot him, so pointed it out that one time just to seem like he didn't forget him.

And MOWE wasn't even making any form of attack, why are you suddenly defending Makeinu?

I was defending myself, and honestly mostly from you. And mastahcheese, I'm not questioning you for reasons I already stated: that I am fairly certain you are innocent.

As for the whole Makinu-pufferfish thing: Makinu was a rather experienced player, an IC in training, as he was called in the OP. I find it doubtful that he would forget to policy-lynch his own scumbuddy, which would be a fairly basic mistake to make. Either I overestimate his ability or you underestimate it.

Imp: if you had to pick one person who you believed was scum, right now, who would you choose?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:05:36 am

Oh, and Nerjin, we haven't heard from you since Imp and I came into the game. Does this effect your game plan at all, and did anything we have done force you to reevaluate the people in question.

To everyone: beware the tunnel vision effect.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 01:19:39 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:00:17 am

I was defending myself, and honestly mostly from you. And mastahcheese, I'm not questioning you for reasons I already stated: that I am fairly certain you are innocent.

As for the whole Makinu-pufferfish thing: Makinu was a rather experienced player, an IC in training, as he was called in the OP. I find it doubtful that he would forget to policy-lynch his own scumbuddy, which would be a fairly basic mistake to make. Either I overestimate his ability or you underestimate it.

How were you defending yourself from me when I haven't actually attacked you yet? I had a hold-over vote on you that I simply kept due to a lack of new evidence that would make me unvote. And as I said earlier, it didn't even seem like MOWE was attacking at all. Yet you say you are defending yourself. From what?
Overestimate or underestimate, everyone makes mistakes.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:05:36 am

Oh, and Nerjin, we haven't heard from you since Imp and I came into the game. Does this effect your game plan at all, and did anything we have done force you to reevaluate the people in question.

I'm unbelievably tempted to call this deflection. But I'll leave that to someone else to decide.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:05:36 am

To everyone: beware the tunnel vision effect.

Oh, trust me, I know. The last person to tell me that flipped scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:31:11 am

Alright then, MastahCheese. As you say. Seeing as how I appear to be on the lynching block, go May as well share what I know.

I am the cop.  Pufferfish did, in fact, send in a scumcheck: on. Mastahcheese. He is innocent. Confirmed town.

My only guess as to his lurker behavior was either troubles in his/her life he/she could not expect or a hope that with the large numbers of lurker in the game, he could slip by unnoticed by both town and scum until he found the actual scum.

I doubt this will change anyone's votes. I don't expect it to. And even though there are a couple days till the deadline, I have a feeling that I will be lynched no matter what, due to poor play brought on by inexperience.

For the rest of the townies: root out the traitor. You can do it

I will spend the remaining time trying to gather all possible info together for town viewing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 01:37:55 am

God dang it.

Unvote

This isn't the first time puffer lurked as a cop, either.
I feel inclined to believe you, for some reason.

I need to go re-read everything, now. Though I'm sure some would say not to claim, thank you for doing so.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:50:21 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 01:37:55 am

God dang it.

Unvote

This isn't the first time puffer lurked as a cop, either.
I feel inclined to believe you, for some reason.

I need to go re-read everything, now. Though I'm sure some would say not to claim, thank you for doing so.

My logic in claiming was thus:

There are two main scenarios that could be the case: I am cop, or I'm running a really gutsy mafia ploy.
Let us examine these two scenarios: the first is that I am cop. One possible conclusion is that I get lynched anyway, flipping town. This confirms Mastahcheese as innocent, reducing the pool of possible mafiosos. The second scenario is where I don't get lynched. I would almost certainly be night killed, as the jailkeepeer wouldn't use his ability on me because it would prevent me from using my own ability. The third option, the counter-claim, leads to a town victory. Either I get lynched, which is an obvious scum tell on the other claimant, or they get lynched, and game over.

The next scenario is where I am mafia. In the case of a lynch, game over, everyone goes home, town victory. In the case of someone else being lynched, the game goes, at best for me, as follows: I night-kill someone, leaving five town (one got lynched) and me. The next day, I claim to have found the culprit, and they lynch him. Another night kill, leaving town with a three to one majority and an obvious scum. Town victory. The same goes for the counter-claim, except it is even quicker.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 02:00:44 am

Yeah, I believe you.
I'm still rereading, trying to make sense of all this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 16, 2014, 02:01:53 am

Puffinpuff is a he, and not a fish, by the way. A pretty much awesome he. :P

Also votecount + filling in flavor coming up for 4 whole posts. Sorry for the wait. x_x

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 16, 2014, 05:38:16 am

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 03:39:30 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Sinlessmoon Exams already?  Ouch.  For me the semester barely has started.  How much time do you believe you'll have for this game; do you intend to replace or will you be able to interact with us fairly frequently?

Yeah, my semester is just ending for me. I don't think I'll replace, but I definitely won't have time for large posts. I will however come and check in on things frequently.

That's great!  Long posts aren't necessary, especially if short is your style anyway.  Effective action towards a win for your side is what matters, not how long or short you post.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 02:25:19 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 13, 2014, 08:43:59 am

Sinlessmoon:
I haven't heard much from you recently. What are your thoughts on Makeinu's flip? Who do you think is Makeinu's buddy? You planning on going on he offensive at all this game?

Yeah, I haven't had much time recently, what with exams coming up. Gotta crack down on some assignments!

As for that, I thought Makeinu would be scum; just one of those things that nags at the back of your head, and he seemed very eager to draw suspicion onto other players. I'm thinking I might go on the offensive soon, consider casting my vote on some suspicious people.

How sure were you about your thought that makeinu would be scum?  You didn't vote D1, or really post much of anything; you've given a reason for not posting, and a tentative reason for not voting (though you didn't label it as such):

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 10, 2014, 11:01:06 pm

Quote

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 06, 2014, 08:43:46 pm

So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.

As god damn well they should be! Lynching is, once again, TOWN’S ONLY POWER IN THIS GAME! Without a lynch we lose while we let mafia pick us off one by one.

I'm going to go ahead and partially agree with this. Yes; lynching is the only power that the town have, but they shouldn't just throw it around, Its like waving a loaded gun and hoping that when you shoot its the not the imposter that is trying to convince you that they are the real person.

You saw that Makeinu the person that was so pro-lynch turned out to be mafia, the problem with the Town's only weapon... It can be easily used against them.

How sure do you want to feel about someone before you vote for their lynch?  How can you become that sure or more, before a day ends?

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4maskwolf:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 05:19:43 pm

My only retort to that is that Makeinu was rather focused on saving his own hide from being skinned (which he failed at), so he was less likely to notice all of the lurkers.  Also, if he was already going down, why would he draw attention to a fellow Mafioso in such a blatant way?

Could you please quote what you read that made you think that makeinu was focused on saving his own hide?  I've reread his posts again, and I don't see that at all.  Even his final post before the lynch -

Quote from: makeinu on January 07, 2014, 11:03:13 pm

Exactly. As strange as my behaviour has been this game, it's all been about teaching. Believe it or not.

That sounds purposeful, and focused, at least in claim, on teaching.  Which, reading his posts before that one, his posts all game - teaching is what I see.  Once he starts to gain votes, he stops making any cases on anyone, stops defending himself, and focuses even more completely in trying to teach.  I'm not sure if or how he drew attention to his Scumbuddy - I don't see it - but I also don't see the focus on saving his own hide.  I really want to hear what you see.

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Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 15, 2014, 06:26:00 pm

Imp, On the lack of follow-ups, is that I rarely have the time to take notes, and I usually don't exactly remember what I say. In fact, thanks for reminding me :P.

I wasn't really asking him a question. I was just... I dunno, joking around? Telling him that I don't actually just jump in and post 4 words on a regular basis, and this was trying to get a reaction?

The way Persus said it, sounded like. "Active people are pretty much comfirmed town IMO, I'm active btw. Lets lynch these lurkers." I understand his reasoning, but that seems to be trying to not get found out himself.

That makes sense, thank you.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 15, 2014, 06:26:00 pm

Also, I really don't think that both ICs would be... scum. Just from the standpoint of a BM game, even given that Tiruin rolled for it, I would think she would reroll, because none of the new player gets as much help/ scum experience. And there is no point for the scum IC really. But that's all meta gaming.

I would like Nerjin to answer it. Please and thank you.

It's happened before.  Here's the link, in the history of games here it's happened once before:  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108236.msg3228150#msg3228150

The IC who were both Scum played a very strong game; Scum won very handily, which commonly happens even when both IC are Town.

Would Tiruin reroll if she got that result for Scum?  She's not supposed to.

Speaking of old games, the best Town win game was not a 'true BM', it had a lot of experienced players in it but was the normal BM set up.  It was a very short game, Scum lynched D1 and D2, though they did suffer a Town loss to N1 kill.  If we do lynch Scum today, I think we're getting into the archives, because that's a Town win that would trump that 'perfect' game.  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79927.0

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 15, 2014, 06:26:00 pm

Also, 4maskwolf: That's were you come in. Persus will be especially keeping an eye on you two, since you two replaced in. If you guys slip up! Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas, and may that ditch be comfortable!

Hey now, I hope you at least try to tell if a mistake is a Town mistake or a Scum mistake.  Don't forget that others have put that effort into you once upon the time.  (that's a reference to BM43, for those who forgot or were not there.  I was about 65% sure Cat was Scum there by the end of D1, because of a rather spectacular misunderstanding and a few other coincidences, combined with his playstyle... we discussed until I finally became convinced Cat was Town.  He was too - but boy did he 'slip up'.)

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mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 12:47:59 am

I'm fairly certain. I'll go ahead and give my reasons for them.
Sort of put my whole reads in that, but I doubt you'll mind.

Not at all.  The better I understand how you think the more comfortable I feel about my ability to understand your intentions and honesty.  You are my second 'Top Town' pick, and second only because I believe I've got a very good read of Superblackcat.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 12:47:59 am

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably.  I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me.  That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before.  But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.

I'm not sure if it's just in the way that you word this, but I'm having a lot of trouble reading and interpreting this.

Overall, it's hard for me to read through your posts because you're very wordy with your responses.
This isn't a bad thing, it just takes me a re-read or two.

Rewording it, longer, hopefully more clear with missing details included:

When I think someone is probably Town, because of how that person is scumhunting and the reasoning I see them use, the actions I see them take - when everything about their play makes sense to me - I have not had much to say directly to that person.  In my first BM, that got me rather heavily questioned, because I was intently debating everyone active (and inactive, trying different styles of persuasion and provokation) pretty extensively - except for the one player who did not look Scummy to me at all.  What that player said made sense, the Scumhunting he was doing, though not in my words, was more or less exactly the same concerns I saw in others' posts, and really, that player was a strong Town choice for me.  I can understand how you three (Superblackcat, Persus13, mastahcheese) can become completely comfortable with each other and view each other as Town, because it happened to me in that game with another Town player, and pretty early in the game.  But I thought that was a rare thing, I've not seen it before other than in my own playing, and I have not seen it happen mutually between three players before.  In fact Persus13 especially has seemed exceptionally suspicious of others and rather slow to decide if he thought someone was more likely Town or Scum than unknown, at least that was my impression from our Supernatural game.

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4maskwolf:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:00:17 am

I was defending myself

That I believe.  You've been focused on being a cop, or presenting yourself as a cop, from your first post in this game.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 13, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

Just remember, I will be watching all of you.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 14, 2014, 05:17:16 pm

My lack of a greeting

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 12:54:19 pm

And Imp, after reading your responses to me I realized that I had misinterpreted your statement.  Yes, it was a greeting.  The reason I had not posted MORE of a greeting was the fact that my computer's hard drive failed.

I think I believe you more the first time, when you said you 'lacked a greeting'.  Your first post here was the start of a role claim.

You walked into this game with 2 votes on you, a game with only 3 active players, and around 4 weekdays to day end, with 2 extends open for use and only needing 2 players to agree to extend with you to get an extension.  Additionally, you have claimed

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 12:54:19 pm

My previous experience on these forums is lacking, but I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.

So now I'd like you to explain how you respond to pressure, in general.  Are you likely to break or make snap choices under mid to moderate pressure?

Please rank these three choices in order of more/less satisfying to you:

1  To be alive at the end of the game in which your side has won
2  To have helped your side achieve a win, regardless of if you are alive at the end of the game or not
3  To be alive at the end of the game, regardless of if your side has won or not.

Did you walk into this game intending to claim the role of Cop from your very first post?


I notice now, where I missed it before - your claim here:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 12:54:19 pm

My previous experience on these forums is lacking, but I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.

Perhaps I am trying to overanalyze, but it's my first game.

That's more defensiveness, right?  You're playing both 'experienced and inexperienced' at the same time.  Why?

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 02:08:52 pm

While I have ruled out MastahCheese as a suspect, I don't follow how you managed to rule out the others and decide to pin the blame on lurkers.  Yes, lurking is a minor scumtell: however, there were, as you said, four lurkers, and only one mafioso.  It isn't possible that all of the lurkers were mafia, so how did you select the individual ones to single out and eliminate?

You didn't ask me this question, but no one else has answered you, so I will, in general:

You talk to them, ask them questions, follow those questions up, interact, observe, consider, and in the end, guess based on the probability you believe you see.

There's only two groups of players who don't have to guess - the Scum, who know almost everything, and if we have one, the Cop, who knows only about who has been inspected so far.

If you want specifics from the three I asked my question of, you'd better follow up because it looks like your question has been missed, if you care about that.  Do you?

And again, about that 'Mafia experience' answer of yours - this is a very basic question.  You expected this type of answer, which you already know, yes or no?

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:00:17 am

Imp: if you had to pick one person who you believed was scum, right now, who would you choose?

Ouch.  I want answers before I lynch if that's possible to get.  And there's people I haven't even pressed yet because I want to press others first.  The answers I get are very likely to change how I vote.

Because I don't have your answers yet, 4maskwolf, and because you have claimed cop, if I was kinged and had to lynch someone before anyone could post again, at this second I'd lynch Sinlessmoon, and I'd be stressing heavily over it.  I am by no means sure of him, but at -this- second he either is my Top Scumpick or is tied for that rank, it's very close and I'm not done thinking.

Before your cop claim it would have been you, and I would barely be more comfortable with that choice.  I want answers if I can get them, I want to feel sure and make sure.  People mess up - people freak out, people react badly to pressure; there's coincidences and misunderstandings.  Since I cannot inspect someone, I talk to them.  Nicely, meanly, deeply, obliquely; whatever I can figure out that might help me get a clear enough understanding of their motives, intention, and reasons.  I also want to know their honesty, but I've seen Town lie before under enough stress - I've known Town players who have preferred to live than preferred to help Scumhunt.  In fact - in Supernatural 6, our very own Nerjin was one of those - the D1 lynch, he chose to spend his final hours searching for any way to survive, and spurnned my attempts to discuss Scumhunting with him, any final tries to help his team win if he actually was Town - and he actually was Town.  But if it wasn't going to immediately get him out of the lynch; he didn't care and wasn't going to put any effort into anything.  He's changed his play greatly since then - his current playstyle has been used every game since that I've seen.

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 01:19:39 am

How were you defending yourself from me when I haven't actually attacked you yet? I had a hold-over vote on you that I simply kept due to a lack of new evidence that would make me unvote. And as I said earlier, it didn't even seem like MOWE was attacking at all. Yet you say you are defending yourself. From what?

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:31:11 am

Alright then, MastahCheese. As you say. Seeing as how I appear to be on the lynching block, go May as well share what I know.

I am the cop.

Wait a second.  "As mastahcheese says"?  Excuse you, but mastercheese said that you were not being attacked, that the votes on you were hold overs, and that at least to his perspective, MOWE wasn't attacking you either.  And you respond with this and a role claim?

You walked into this game eager to roleclaim.  You definately didn't think of it spur of the minute, it's been on your mind since before your first post, and it's colored almost every post you've made in this game.... maybe every one, only I can't spot them all.  I can see plenty.

What that doesn't say is 'why are you so defensive, why are you so eager to role claim, why do you feel so incredibly threatened'.  It doesn't say one word about if your role claim is true - and if you're doing this role claim to save your life from the lynch and it is a true claim - you are setting yourself up to be a very likely nightkill target - perhaps defended by the Jailkeeper, if we have one.

So if you're roleclaiming to save your life, you're also throwing it away.

But if you're Scum and fakeclaiming (hah, the remaining scum is a Rolecop.... if you're Scum it's not even a fakeclaim, and your PM would have put the word cop right in front of your eyes, like we can all see in the OP list of roles) then you can play as if Town all game, 'protected' by the unknown Jailkeeper (maybe for real, maybe just pretending there is one - unless we all claim Jailkeeper or not Jailkeeper, or the Jailkeeper dies - we don't know if we even have one) and not using your night kill, or even using it - after all, it's reasonable that 'the Scum might pick another target, knowing you're probably gaurded' and you could use the kill quite safely, without blowing your cover.

I don't know what's true.  You do.  And you can help me and us understand that truth too, by really explaining yourself, your motivations, your reasoning - in enough detail that we can understand your choices as being reasonable ones that are logically directed towards achieving the goal you claim they are focused towards.  I don't want to lynch any Town, cop or not.  If you're Town, just be honest, very very honest, even if you made some bad choices.  If I can recognize your Townness and feel it is true, I assure you -I- will not be voting for you.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:50:21 am

My logic in claiming was thus:

There are two main scenarios that could be the case: I am cop, or I'm running a really gutsy mafia ploy.
Let us examine these two scenarios: the first is that I am cop. One possible conclusion is that I get lynched anyway, flipping town. This confirms Mastahcheese as innocent, reducing the pool of possible mafiosos. The second scenario is where I don't get lynched. I would almost certainly be night killed, as the jailkeepeer wouldn't use his ability on me because it would prevent me from using my own ability. The third option, the counter-claim, leads to a town victory. Either I get lynched, which is an obvious scum tell on the other claimant, or they get lynched, and game over.

The next scenario is where I am mafia. In the case of a lynch, game over, everyone goes home, town victory. In the case of someone else being lynched, the game goes, at best for me, as follows: I night-kill someone, leaving five town (one got lynched) and me. The next day, I claim to have found the culprit, and they lynch him. Another night kill, leaving town with a three to one majority and an obvious scum. Town victory. The same goes for the counter-claim, except it is even quicker.

Your logic is flawed.  Especially in 'The next scenario'.  Wow, especially in the next scenario.

You propose as your best plan to claim that you found 'the culprit'; you suggest that D3 you will  say a Townie is a Scum, which you say will get them lynched D3 and you lynched D4, providing a certain Town win.

But wait - even a real cop only might inspect the actual Scum - why would you 'at best' claim to have successfully found Scum and have only a plan that gets you dead?

Isn't it far better to claim to have inspected any person and found them to be Town, or even claim to have inspected the night kill target (after all, you don't know who the Scum would pick to kill, so why give Town any new information at all - why wouldn't you inspect that person?)

I can see you as Scum carrying that lie, with or without night kills, all the way to lylo and a Scum win.

In fact, you even suggest that our Jailkeeper wouldn't protect you, in your 'first scenario', since that would block your inspection.  Leaving you free to choose who to kill, or not to kill as you most saw fit.

I really hope you can help me understand your reasoning, especially for how and why you didn't see a possible 'Scum-win' way to use your Claim to achieve a Scum win, if you are Scum and not the Cop as you claim.  I really hope you can help me understand how your reasoning is Town reasoning and not Scum strategy.

In fact, having thought this through more and understanding more clearly, when you asked me:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:00:17 am

Imp: if you had to pick one person who you believed was scum, right now, who would you choose?

Right now, you.  Even with your claim, because of the holes in your logic and apparent dishonesty in the result of what would happen 'at best for you' if you were Scum using this ploy.

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Tiruin:  Does Nerjin need a prod?  Also, would you permit both IC to have Scum roles in your BM game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 16, 2014, 08:38:00 am

[...Yeah. My net is killing me from updating on this lovely forum x_x You can expect a whole 5-post chapter or so by the end of this, for I fear that I may have to end the day with all this cliffhanging. Hopefully, the writing would be OK enough for you people. :X]

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• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - Superblackcat
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - , MyOwnWorstEnemy
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin - Persus13
• Not Voting: Nerjin, 4maskwolf, Sinlessmoon, Imp, mastahcheese

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 17, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140117T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Quote from: Imp on January 16, 2014, 05:38:16 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 15, 2014, 06:26:00 pm

Also, I really don't think that both ICs would be... scum. Just from the standpoint of a BM game, even given that Tiruin rolled for it, I would think she would reroll, because none of the new player gets as much help/ scum experience. And there is no point for the scum IC really. But that's all meta gaming.

I would like Nerjin to answer it. Please and thank you.

It's happened before.  Here's the link, in the history of games here it's happened once before:  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108236.msg3228150#msg3228150

The IC who were both Scum played a very strong game; Scum won very handily, which commonly happens even when both IC are Town.

Would Tiruin reroll if she got that result for Scum?  She's not supposed to.

This is true. I'll let you on a little secret. I'm a fish. A bloodfish who sucks on blood and nummy nummy iron. Iron is tasty, especially when it's blood. I go with the flow and swim with the tides. I cast my luck and roll with the dice~

Which means: You can hope to expect a regular game role-list. All randomized. There is no way you can predict MY roles. Look at the setup--is there anything similar you see before? Maybe I changed it. Maybe I didn't. Drink my wine, it is 70% isopropyl alcohol. MWAHAHAAHA.
*nom*
Mmm. Carnivorous.

Also hey! I see your avatar's working on most of the browsers I've got here! Pretty nifty, Imp. :)

Quote

Tiruin:  Does Nerjin need a prod?  Also, would you permit both IC to have Scum roles in your BM game?

*pokes Nerjin*
Mmph. Sorry about not making a votecount post + who was prodded. His last post was here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4912561#msg4912561) and yep! I have prodded him.
About a day or so ago but my message sending tabs have been messy with me as of late--I should check the Profile > Settings > Always keep a PM message (sets the checkbox to always 'ticked' when sending a msg).

This day's mod-silliness brought to you by continuous network disconnections! The moderator is having net problems, but will hopefully be really present for day end. :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

To Imp:

At least you are questioning my motives, as opposed to Mashtahcheese, who accepted what I said.

The choice to claim cop was more thought out than you think. I did. It want to have to hard claim cop: my posts up to that point were a soft-claim attempt to keep me from being lynched. However, I realized that it was highly likely that, no matter what, I would get lynched, due to my play style and generally poor play on my part. My defensive style drew far more attention onto myself, along with my propensity to misinterpret what others say.

I would say that I find the second option the most satisfying: helping my team win. That is, as you pointed out, what a cop claim would do regardless of my actual alignment. However, I am slightly dubious about this "doomsday scenario" where a mafia cop claim, under these circumstances, leads to a win. Perhaps an IC could pull it off, I don't know.

As you very correctly pointed out, if I roleclaimed to save my life I effectively committed suicide. That is why it was not a life-saver roleclaim. Part of my goal was to free myself up from answering questions so that I could scumhunt, the other part was getting the known information out there. As I saw, and still see, it, had I stayed silent I would have been lynched.

If you want to vote me, Imp, feel free. However, I have a few questions for you specifically:
1. How do YOU respond under pressure.
2. Why is Sinlessmoon your second lynch choice? Is it reason or just a gut instinct.
3. You very nearly signed up as IC for this game and have played in many mafia games. Where do you see the line between a "beginner mistake" and a scum tell?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:42:44 am

And I'm sure I didn't answer all your questions, please reask any I missed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 16, 2014, 12:49:52 pm

I have to go to work and am very time pressured.  But I'll make a very fast post with some things I instantly want to reply to.

4maskwolf:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

To Imp:

At least you are questioning my motives, as opposed to Mashtahcheese, who accepted what I said.

mastahcheese probably reacted, which may or may not be acceptance.  I'm sure he is rereading just like he said.  The only sensible thing to do is examine everyone's motives and intentions, that's a big part of Scumhunting I believe.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

As you very correctly pointed out, if I roleclaimed to save my life I effectively committed suicide. That is why it was not a life-saver roleclaim. Part of my goal was to free myself up from answering questions so that I could scumhunt, the other part was getting the known information out there. As I saw, and still see, it, had I stayed silent I would have been lynched.

What is wrong with being asked questions?  Wait, you even just said:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

At least you are questioning my motives, as opposed to Mashtahcheese, who accepted what I said.

How do questions prevent anyone from Scumhunting?  I see several players in this game who have answered questions and Scumhunted, some have even used a single post to do both things.

Why do you think a roleclaim is going to end the questions that you are asked, and "free you to Scumhunt" - the only way it could do that was if everyone accepted your claim as truth and asked you nothing about it - you say:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

The choice to claim cop was more thought out than you think.

Really?  Cause I do think you thought a lot about it.  I even said so:

Quote from: Imp on January 16, 2014, 05:38:16 am

That I believe.  You've been focused on being a cop, or presenting yourself as a cop, from your first post in this game.

Focused on is where your thoughts are.  So explain this deep thinking please - including why you expect the claim to end the questions, and why you must be freed from questions before you can Scumhunt.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

If you want to vote me, Imp, feel free. However, I have a few questions for you specifically:
1. How do YOU respond under pressure.
2. Why is Sinlessmoon your second lynch choice? Is it reason or just a gut instinct.
3. You very nearly signed up as IC for this game and have played in many mafia games. Where do you see the line between a "beginner mistake" and a scum tell?

1) Variably.  My responses are situationally based and goal orientated, and I can also be profoundly affected by out of game stressors that color my entire life.

2) Both reason and gut instinct.  At the time I said he was first choice, he was, and it was hard to say if you or Nerjin were second or third; when I changed my answer at the end of the same post you were and that change came from serious consideration of your then most recent post (motives for cop claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4920999#msg4920999)).  I currently rank Sinlessmoon, yourself, and Nerjin as the Scummiest, and that ranking will shift and hopefully become more accurate as everyone continues to interact.  You are the most responsive and interactive of the three so far, so your ranking is the most likely to quickly change.

I think in terms of probabilities, and I want answers to the questions and I want to see more, ideally much more interaction between everyone, before I'm ready to raise my hand and point to someone to be lynched today.

3)  I did (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4795571#msg4795571) sign up as IC, an extremely experienced IC (Jim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4795782#msg4795782)) stepped in to publicly announce that he felt I was not ready.  Oddly, he said nothing about Makeinu.  That I don't understand why is perhaps part of the reason I'm too green.

I don't understand what you mean by playing many Mafia games, I've already said I've played in 4 previous games, ever.  I never even knew Mafia was a thing until a few weeks before I signed up for my first BM (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.0), which was the last one.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

Where do you see the line between a "beginner mistake" and a scum tell?

Interesting question.  For one it has a very complex answer, extremely situational.  'How do you find', instead of 'Where do you see' would have been possible to answer - but already answered, and by me:

Quote from: Imp on January 16, 2014, 05:38:16 am

talk to them, ask them questions, follow those questions up, interact, observe, consider, and in the end, guess based on the probability you believe you see.

If I was an IC, that would be the core of my advice, simmered down, on how to Scumhunt and how to decide who to vote for, who to investigate - how to play.

Are you asking me this question...

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:41:21 am

Where do you see the line between a "beginner mistake" and a scum tell?

...because you're hoping that I'll tell you what I want to hear, so you can tell me it and feel safer?  Town doesn't need to fear being interrogated, it's Scum that have something to hide.  If you are Town, don't be scared of us.  Just be honest, answer us, and also do your job - which is the same as our job - to find the Scum.

Everything you do should be done because you are trying to find the Scum.

Tell me more about your Mafia playing experience?  You seem to be stressing your inexperience again, and that counters what you first claimed:

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 15, 2014, 12:54:19 pm

I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.

Where do you draw the line between "playing Mafia quite often", what you say about me and what you identify as me "have[ing] played in many mafia games"?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 02:43:43 pm

unvote

4mask, check Imp tonight alright?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 02:48:40 pm

Yeah, I haven't really been posting as much as I should have [totally my fault on that one] but I don't really believe this "cop claim". Reeks a bit of poor decision or lies to me. I'm not sure which yet but I'll be sure to tell you guys about it later due to PFP.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 16, 2014, 04:32:24 pm

Sorry everyone, but college is picking up for me too and due to a last minute discovery of an assignment that was due today, I have had no spare time, but I'd like to say that the cop claim is fishy to me as well. Hopefully, I'll have time to fully explain myself on this and my other opinions tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 05:31:42 pm

The cop claim, is quite dumb, and should not have happened.

However, this gives mafia, assuming we don't lynch correctly, to create wifom. If they do lynch 'cop', well, no wifom really, but if they don't, we start to think, maybe he isn't cop. Etc. Etc. But at the same time, he could still be cop.

IF ANYONE ELSE IS COP, THEY SHOULD OUT NOW!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:05:50 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 05:31:42 pm

The cop claim, is quite dumb, and should not have happened.

However, this gives mafia, assuming we don't lynch correctly, to create wifom. If they do lynch 'cop', well, no wifom really, but if they don't, we start to think, maybe he isn't cop. Etc. Etc. But at the same time, he could still be cop.

IF ANYONE ELSE IS COP, THEY SHOULD OUT NOW!

What he said.  If anyone else is cop,they out, I get lynched, and I was lying.  If anyone else tries a copclaim as a lie, then I get lynched, am town, and they get lynched.  And I know it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but I was frankly getting a bit tired of being under suspicion for what my predecessor did or did not do.  I'd much rather have waited until the next game, but I was told there was a replacement spot that would drop in soon and I was like "sure, why not".  So I enter the game, find myself with two lynch votes out of four votes with four lurkers, including myself.  This was compounded by my overeagerness and general inexperience with the game to put me under even greater suspicion, or at the very least not abating it at all.  Short of trying to force a no-lynch by shutting my mouth and voting for one of the two people who had one vote, neither of which seemed particularly scummy to me, there wasn't a way that I could see out of the situation.  Even that would likely have resulted in a couple more votes for me for causeless bandwagoning.  My inexperience with this game is my biggest problem, along with my tendency to jump to conclusions about the meaning of other player's actions, which Imp has noted at least five different times.

No, Imp, I'm not looking for the answer I want to hear.  There is no answer to that question I want to hear.  The question, before you gave a non-answer with semantics about already answering and word choice, was merely intended as a probe, as well as to tell me what beginner mistakes I haven't already made, the few that there are.

Nerjin: poor decision making and massive doses of irritation.  Call it lies if you will, I'm likely to be lynched anyway.  Might as well vote for myself.

MOWE: You dropped in just to say that the cop claim sounded fishy.  Why?  That post could have waited until the next day, as the remaining IC himself had even said that it sounded fishy to him.  At least to me, that smacks of bandwagoning.

Mastahcheese:  What is your verdict?  Back to lynching me, or decided that I'm telling the truth?

Superblackcat:  I don't take orders about who to search.  However, my original plan, before this whole fiasco, had been to search either him or Sinlessmoon.  Had I found mafia and not been NK'ed, THEN I would have done the cop claim.  Not before.  I had been trying to subtly soft-claim cop with my posts.

Imp again: I find it rather difficult to focus on multiple things at once, due to my ADHD.  I can hyperfocus on either answering questions or questioning others, but not both at the same time.  I can try, but it will be far less effective in both areas.

I now defer to the judgement of my betters.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:26:09 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:05:50 pm

Nerjin: poor decision making and massive doses of irritation.  Call it lies if you will, I'm likely to be lynched anyway.  Might as well vote for myself.

---

I now defer to the judgement of my betters.

Alright let me teach you something real quick. This is a claim to emotion. Sometimes claims to emotion work well. Other times they scream of desperation and will get you lynched. BUT that's not what I'm here to teach, here's the specific thing I want to tell you: If you say things like this in a real game people WILL vote you. If you don't care about your role in the game no one else will. Unfortunately for you the cop-claim seems more like "I'm trying to deflect" more than anything else and this just seems to confirm it 4mask

---

Sorry for not being aorund as much as I should. I've started up college again and the first week has been a bit... harsh.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 07:27:53 pm

I'm not voting 4mask unless someone else outs as cop. If you are the real cop, we win instant if you out. Otherwise, I don't see why Nerjin would bother to vote 4mask.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:29:27 pm

Because I don't think he's actually cop. There might not even BE a cop.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:46:45 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:26:09 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:05:50 pm

Nerjin: poor decision making and massive doses of irritation.  Call it lies if you will, I'm likely to be lynched anyway.  Might as well vote for myself.

---

I now defer to the judgement of my betters.

Alright let me teach you something real quick. This is a claim to emotion. Sometimes claims to emotion work well. Other times they scream of desperation and will get you lynched. BUT that's not what I'm here to teach, here's the specific thing I want to tell you: If you say things like this in a real game people WILL vote you. If you don't care about your role in the game no one else will. Unfortunately for you the cop-claim seems more like "I'm trying to deflect" more than anything else and this just seems to confirm it 4mask

---

Sorry for not being aorund as much as I should. I've started up college again and the first week has been a bit... harsh.

I understand that people would vote for me in a normal game.  And Nerjin is right, it is statistically possible that there isn't a cop.  It is also possible that there isn't a doc, and that there was no night-kill declaration.

Oh, and Nerjin:  I'm an emotional person.  I'm not going to lie on that.  And I know that you are specifically refering to the "I'm likely going to be lynched anyway" thing, but here's something for you to think about: Perhaps 4mask wants to be lynched.  At least this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 07:47:42 pm

Stop the wifom.

I don't think mafia will bet on such a thing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:48:12 pm

Hang on, what does wifom mean?  I keep hearing it brought up.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:50:56 pm

Wine in front of me. It basically refers to circular logic.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:51:15 pm

Just looked it up, I see what you are meaning.  While I don't know what his exact logic for the lynch vote was, though, what he's said so far doesn't sound like a WIFOM, it sounds more like he is merely trying to play big boys mafia against a beginner.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:52:30 pm

And while there is a certain amount of sense to that, on the off chance that the beginner proves surprisingly competent, it does seem like a difficult thing to guess accurately.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:57:50 pm

Look I'll say this: I'm not picking on you. If anyone else claimed Cop I would have said the same thing. Especially under the circumstances and considering what you said afterward. It's not you. It might just be a newb mistake but... Something feeels off about it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 16, 2014, 07:59:52 pm

I'm willing to join the 4maskwolf vote.

His one case has been against MOWE, which basically restated SBC's case against MOWE, a little after SBC said it, and since then has done little scumhunting while being very defensive for some reason. Then he claimed cop, and came across as scum pretending to be cop. Just, everything I've read from him screams scum to me in a way I've never seen before.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:57:50 pm

Look I'll say this: I'm not picking on you. If anyone else claimed Cop I would have said the same thing. Especially under the circumstances and considering what you said afterward. It's not you. It might just be a newb mistake but... Something feeels off about it.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:06 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 07:57:50 pm

Look I'll say this: I'm not picking on you. If anyone else claimed Cop I would have said the same thing. Especially under the circumstances and considering what you said afterward. It's not you. It might just be a newb mistake but... Something feeels off about it.

Oh, I never thought you were picking on me.  Frankly, I was slightly dissapointed with Mastahcheese when he immediately unvoted me after it.  Questioning of motives is always a good thing

I'm just going to give a stark reflection on what caused me to claim.  If and when I am lynched or nk'd, should I flip town, you will know this to be true.  Also, Nerjin, as IC could you give me some advice on what to do next time:

I enter the game a sub, only to find that my predecessor was a lurker who the previously lynched mafia member had failed to out as such, drawing undue suspicion upon himself.  I find myself in possession of a power town role, but with two lynch votes out of four people voting and two lurkers, who later poked their noses back into the game.

My initial plan was to do my best to scumhunt until my power found the scum, then claim and go for the lynch.  However, shortly thereafter I find myself, or at least perceive myself to be, under extremely close scrutiny by the other replacement, without a solid knowledge of how to assuage concerns and counter-question.  This, combined with a tendency to jump to conclusions, results in at least one other person noting that I am at the same level of suspicion.

Now, I find myself growing slightly irritated.  The fact that I was irritated was entirely my own fault, but it appeared to me that I was destined to be lynched.  As such, I decide to reveal my role and clear the name of the one person who I know to be innocent.

Advice for next time?

Oh, and Persus interrupted me.  I vote for a shorten on the day, to get this over with.  We have four votes for me, more than enough for a lynch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:43 pm

And actually, I've been trying to build a case against imp, I just don't know what questions to ask.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 16, 2014, 08:11:45 pm

Pfp.

Very well wolf. I'll drop in again and explain why I don't like the claim.

1. You weren't really being pressured. You have a while before the end of the day. The claim came out of the blue and claimed someone that everyone already sees as town is town! This is the major issue I have with this.

2. You're trying to tell me that someone who barely posted in the thread decided to investigate someone? Pufferfish just randomly come in just for that?

3. This just doesn't seem logic at all. You had two votes. One ahead of Nerjin and Imp. I can find no real reason for you to act like that unless your desperate.

And I threw my suspicion in so the post isn't entirely devoid of information because I don't want to waste people's time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:15:51 pm

I just realized that I had missed answering one of imp's questions from the massive post.

I have no previous experience with FORUM MAFIA, which is considerably more hardcore than the mafia I am used to playing.  The "under various guises" was meant to mean that, in casual mafia, I have played all of the roles that I have encountered.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:16:41 pm

Now, is anyone going to back me on the shorten so that I can leave and stop being railed against?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 08:17:21 pm

4mask

Bye.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:18:53 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 08:17:21 pm

4mask

Bye.

No shorten?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:20:03 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:06 pm

I'm just going to give a stark reflection on what caused me to claim.  If and when I am lynched or nk'd, should I flip town, you will know this to be true.  Also, Nerjin, as IC could you give me some advice on what to do next time:

Certainly. That's what I'm here for, even if I've not done it well.

Quote

I enter the game a sub, only to find that my predecessor was a lurker who the previously lynched mafia member had failed to out as such, drawing undue suspicion upon himself.  I find myself in possession of a power town role, but with two lynch votes out of four people voting and two lurkers, who later poked their noses back into the game.

My initial plan was to do my best to scumhunt until my power found the scum, then claim and go for the lynch.  However, shortly thereafter I find myself, or at least perceive myself to be, under extremely close scrutiny by the other replacement, without a solid knowledge of how to assuage concerns and counter-question.  This, combined with a tendency to jump to conclusions, results in at least one other person noting that I am at the same level of suspicion.

Now, I find myself growing slightly irritated.  The fact that I was irritated was entirely my own fault, but it appeared to me that I was destined to be lynched.  As such, I decide to reveal my role and clear the name of the one person who I know to be innocent.

Advice for next time?

Hm, well trying to appeal to emotions won't get you anywhere. All that does is say that you can't defend yourself logically. I'll say that you should avoid that in the future [don't get down on yourself over it though. I did a LOT worse in my first game.] Sometimes you just need to get lynched as town. You'll mess up and get yourself killed BUT if you are town [I am going to give advice as though you are even if I don't believe it since you're asking for my view of how to deal with this AS town] you just need to act like town. It's really that simple, get out there and search for what you can. Find inconsistencies. As a cop you've done the BEST thing one can do as a cop [though VERY prematurely] in this situation: You cleared someone's name.

As the Mafiaso is dead that means that Mastah HAS to be town. There is literally now ay for him to be anything else.

In short: I'd reccomend you simply scum-hunt until the end and:

[quote
Oh, and Persus interrupted me.  I vote for a shorten on the day, to get this over with.  We have four votes for me, more than enough for a lynch.
[/quote]

NEVER[/b[ do this. Once again, if you don't care that you're getting lynched why should anyone else. I vote to Shorten as well. If you want to throw this away I won't stop you.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:16:41 pm

Now, is anyone going to back me on the shorten so that I can leave and stop being railed against?

This is bad sportsmanship. But I can sympathize. It can be VERY frustrating to replace in only to get lynched.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:20:59 pm

And that's why you ALWAYS double check your formtting. I voted to Shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:23:18 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:20:03 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:06 pm

I'm just going to give a stark reflection on what caused me to claim.  If and when I am lynched or nk'd, should I flip town, you will know this to be true.  Also, Nerjin, as IC could you give me some advice on what to do next time:

Certainly. That's what I'm here for, even if I've not done it well.

Quote

I enter the game a sub, only to find that my predecessor was a lurker who the previously lynched mafia member had failed to out as such, drawing undue suspicion upon himself.  I find myself in possession of a power town role, but with two lynch votes out of four people voting and two lurkers, who later poked their noses back into the game.

My initial plan was to do my best to scumhunt until my power found the scum, then claim and go for the lynch.  However, shortly thereafter I find myself, or at least perceive myself to be, under extremely close scrutiny by the other replacement, without a solid knowledge of how to assuage concerns and counter-question.  This, combined with a tendency to jump to conclusions, results in at least one other person noting that I am at the same level of suspicion.

Now, I find myself growing slightly irritated.  The fact that I was irritated was entirely my own fault, but it appeared to me that I was destined to be lynched.  As such, I decide to reveal my role and clear the name of the one person who I know to be innocent.

Advice for next time?

Hm, well trying to appeal to emotions won't get you anywhere. All that does is say that you can't defend yourself logically. I'll say that you should avoid that in the future [don't get down on yourself over it though. I did a LOT worse in my first game.] Sometimes you just need to get lynched as town. You'll mess up and get yourself killed BUT if you are town [I am going to give advice as though you are even if I don't believe it since you're asking for my view of how to deal with this AS town] you just need to act like town. It's really that simple, get out there and search for what you can. Find inconsistencies. As a cop you've done the BEST thing one can do as a cop [though VERY prematurely] in this situation: You cleared someone's name.

As the Mafiaso is dead that means that Mastah HAS to be town. There is literally now ay for him to be anything else.

In short: I'd reccomend you simply scum-hunt until the end and:

[quote
Oh, and Persus interrupted me.  I vote for a shorten on the day, to get this over with.  We have four votes for me, more than enough for a lynch.

NEVER[/b[ do this. Once again, if you don't care that you're getting lynched why should anyone else. I vote to Shorten as well. If you want to throw this away I won't stop you.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:16:41 pm

Now, is anyone going to back me on the shorten so that I can leave and stop being railed against?

This is bad sportsmanship. But I can sympathize. It can be VERY frustrating to replace in only to get lynched.
[/quote]

Duly noted.  This whole thing is starting to piss me off.

And they should care so that the game can move on and they can be through with me.

And I don't see how MastahCheese has to be town if one mafioso is dead...  Perhaps there was something I hadn't read.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 16, 2014, 08:24:25 pm

Shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:27:37 pm

The... Oh, never mind that role appears to have been removed. Blugh... I was thinking that Mafioso meant that he was capable of fooling cop investigations. But since that role is out my point still stands that if you come out Cop we have at least one confirmed town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:29:37 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:27:37 pm

The... Oh, never mind that role appears to have been removed. Blugh... I was thinking that Mafioso meant that he was capable of fooling cop investigations. But since that role is out my point still stands that if you come out Cop we have at least one confirmed town.

Which is precisely why I cop claimed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:43:14 pm

Okay, this is going to be my last post on the thread unless I feel like something REALLY deserves a response.

First of all, I want to apologize to you all for my rather childish outburst of frustration in the past couple hours of posting.  Yes, I was irritated, but it didn't give me the right to blame you all.  My inexperience was the cause of my irritation, not you all's actions, which were reasonable considering the context.  Even if you had been just no-reason bandwagoning me, that does not give me the right to lash back at you all.  Frankly, I should probably be policy-lynched under the undesireable persons category this game.

Actually, that's all I have to say.  Find the scum, townies!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:45:14 pm

I've played games with Dariush. He was quite a bit... more downbeat than you. That being said I hope to see you more on the forum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 16, 2014, 09:00:05 pm

[My net somehow dies when I'm free. It's ironic how I can post when I'm stressed for time. I believe there are shenanigans going on there. And I hate it.

But woohoo, 7 or so posts perhaps? 8 posts to fill in maybe. I..just hope anyone enjoys it.]

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp -
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin, 4maskwolf, Persus13
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting:   Sinlessmoon, Imp, mastahcheese

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 17, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140117T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 3

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:06 pm

shorten

Quote from: Nerjin on January 16, 2014, 08:20:59 pm

Shorten

Quote from: Persus13 on January 16, 2014, 08:24:25 pm

Shorten

Am i missing something?
My net doesn't let me check easily. If at all.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: makeinu on January 16, 2014, 09:06:35 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:16:41 pm

Now, is anyone going to back me on the shorten so that I can leave and stop being railed against?

Stepping in to make a comment as an IC, and this really applies to all, even though I'm going to specifically address 4maskwolf here. I had the chance to read back to see what's transpired, and I've been following the thread.

Replacing in is not something I'm accustomed to in a game. Very infrequently does it ever come up where I otherwise play forum mafia, as it's more the case that when a player stops being part of the mafia game, it's because they've grown frustrated or bored with the game itself, not swallowed up by real life as seems more common here.

That said, the few times that we have had alternates replace in, it never went well. We eventually evolved a random lynch rule, where tie votes would result in a policy lynch of an inactive player by the mod.

Why do I say all this?

Because taking over someone's role is frustrating. You're hampered by their previous actions, and their inactivity, with no way of knowing what they were thinking when they did what they did. This makes it harder to defend against suspicions than it already is.

And forum mafia is generally very intense, much more so than the party game is. Sometimes, it even gets personal, almost, or it can seem that way. But we're all just players here, having a bit of fun. Now, some players never deal well with the suspicion and attacks and that's all fine, not everything in the world is for everyone.

But I do hope that this hasn't soured you on the format. I think you'd be better starting a BM from the beginning, because it's a very different experience.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 09:16:28 pm

EXTEND.

God dang it, wolf, get that vote off of yourself. You're being just plain stupid right now. And I'm not saying this to be mean, but the way you're getting yourself killed is only going to waste one of our days, and give the remaining scum an actual Night Kill.
Get ahold of yourself.

Imp, you seemed really freaking eager to jump on that. I'm glad. Everyone else is saying it's "fishy" and questioning it.
But not you.
You were sure the moment he said it that he must have been scum.
His move reeks of being the perfect target. And I see your attack on it as being the scummiest by far. Anyone would lynch a claim like that. Absolutely anyone. You wouldn't even need to make a case on it because everyone already knows. And the fact that you've labeled him as the most likely scum, without even pointing your own lynching finger to him, proves to me that you honestly felt so secure in this that you didn't even have to pull the trigger yourself.

Oh, this is offtopic, but thanks for, when I said it was hard to read what you post because you're too long-winded, you respond by making it longer. Thank you for listening.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:05:50 pm

Mastahcheese:  What is your verdict?  Back to lynching me, or decided that I'm telling the truth?

I'm really glad you claimed, I am. I was really looking forward to see who would press the hardest to kill you. And now I know. Thank you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:29:06 pm

Alright, MastahCheese's defense has prompted me to respond again:

I will unvote myself, if only so that I don't go down as that stupid newb who voted his own lynch as a non-jester.

Imp, Mastahcheese is saying the thought I have been trying to formulate for a while now.  The moment I posted the first claim, you immediately started scumhunting me, without outright lynch voting.  The fact that I have made a total ass of myself notwithstanding, you were the only one to outright go on the offensive after that.

However, I am not willing to go as far as Mastahcheese.  If you were sure I was scum, I didn't notice it.  however, you spent a good deal of time parsing words in my posts, and flipped you opinion on my post of "my apologies for not posting a greeting".  One post you said that I had done a greeting, why did I say that, and the next post you put the same quote up again and say that it was more accurate than a post that clarified what I meant, in line with your previous post's question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 16, 2014, 09:37:45 pm

[And then more stuff about how I actually worry about how people view my writing! Is it satisfactory? Legible? Alright? Rawr!]

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - mastahcheese
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin, Persus13
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting:  4maskwolf, Sinlessmoon, Imp,

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 17, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140117T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 1
Shorten requests: 3

3 votes needed to extend the day - 5 extends required at the current notice
5 votes needed to shorten the day - 3 more shortens to end the day needed at current notice
There are two possible extensions remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

I probably won't be here until Day end, and even then...with this bloody net connection.. >_<
Hopefully, I'll be here. In the meantime, enjoy this short post so you could catch up!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 09:53:22 pm

Extend

I'm watching you 4mask.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:55:17 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 09:53:22 pm

Extend

I'm watching you 4mask.

I'm pretty sure you are lynching me, actually.

All joking aside, I'm pretty sure after the cop claim everyone is watching me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 09:57:47 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:55:17 pm

All joking aside, I'm pretty sure after the cop claim everyone is watching me.

As they should be, the only reason I unvoted you is because I wanted to see if I could catch a scum with your net.

Also, all you'd need to do is say "extend" and we'll have more time. I'd suggest you do so, if you like for all this to not be wasted.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:58:58 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 09:57:47 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:55:17 pm

All joking aside, I'm pretty sure after the cop claim everyone is watching me.

As they should be, the only reason I unvoted you is because I wanted to see if I could catch a scum with your net.

Also, all you'd need to do is say "extend" and we'll have more time. I'd suggest you do so, if you like for all this to not be wasted.

As it stands, there is only one technical vote for a shorten, per the rules.  But very well.

Extend and cancel the shorten.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 09:59:26 pm

I'm hoping for more time before you die, to see what happens.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 01:44:14 am

[Mwahaha! Brackets!]

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - mastahcheese
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin, Persus13
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting:  4maskwolf, Sinlessmoon, Imp,

Day 2 has begun and will end at January 17, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140117T21&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 3
Shorten requests: 2

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extension remaining today.

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

I'll do a rechecking of those extend/shorten accounts later on. :X I've only counted them as I see them and not related to who said what, yet.

I may ask for a rechecking if unable later on.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 17, 2014, 07:03:08 am

mastahcheese:

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 09:16:28 pm

Imp, you seemed really freaking eager to jump on that. I'm glad. Everyone else is saying it's "fishy" and questioning it.
But not you.
You were sure the moment he said it that he must have been scum.
His move reeks of being the perfect target. And I see your attack on it as being the scummiest by far. Anyone would lynch a claim like that. Absolutely anyone. You wouldn't even need to make a case on it because everyone already knows. And the fact that you've labeled him as the most likely scum, without even pointing your own lynching finger to him, proves to me that you honestly felt so secure in this that you didn't even have to pull the trigger yourself.

Extend.

Your statements about my and others behavior appear incredibly incorrect to me.  Either you're misinterpreting, or for whatever reason you're being purposefully deceptive about what you claim you see.

4maskwolf's 'move' reeks of being one of several things, and I want to find out what I can about it and him.  It's the loudest of several loud things he's said here - it's so loud that everyone else posting since his post has talked about almost nothing but their opinion of his claim - even ignoring questions that had been directed at them, at least for now.  Enough to leap at shortens, a chance to escape further conversation, in their haste to slay 4mask's screaming stress.

I didn't create that stress, he walked in here with it.  There's two reasons why I didn't vote him - one is that I am not sure what he is, then or now - Cop, Scum, or even a vanilla Townie who made up being a Cop because he dreamed that was the answer to the problems he already saw in play.  The second reason - Some people need more pressure - and some people need less.  And different stimuli creates different types of stress - one thing that 4mask clearly did not need was more voting pressure.

I'd already seen what 4mask does when voted for - he falls apart.  But that doesn't tell me, or anyone, if he is falling apart Scum or Town.

If I wanted him -dead-, regardless of what he was, I would not have worked so hard to communicate with him.  People are never perfect, but some people you can ring like a bell and sound their depths; from how they respond you can tell much about them, including often what you are trying to find out.  If you are screaming because you see an obstacle course of tests which he cannot hope to pass - you mistake the definition of 'passing'.  I want his measure, I want to understand his mind, and I want to try and gauge his role.  He doesn't pass this test by 'beating the test' - he passes it by allowing me to see him from so many angles that I can judge him to be Town or not.

That's the purpose of the questions, that's the purpose of my entire interaction with him, and others.

You're an interesting case.  Your post is quite Scummy in how extremely it misinterprets and misrepresents my and others actions and words - you seek no information, other than a reaction to a 'god-awful' kick, whatever that reaction is.  You're shutting down communication, not inviting it.  Those are very Scummy traits.

But we have a Cop claim stating that you are Town - if he's telling the truth you're Town, if he's a Scum you're Town (since his partner is already dead and not you), and Occam's Razor essentially rules out the chance that he's not-Cop but is-Town and lying because he thinks this is his only chance to possibly live - and that's the only path possible that doesn't prove you are Town.

So whyever you are acting Scummy, it's probably not because you are Scum.

I am the only person I see questioning him about his claims.  If you think I'm standing out because I am Scum - you're a fool.  I am me, and I am verbose, I am thorough, and I try very hard to understand.  I'm disgusted at things I see going on -

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 08:17:21 pm

4mask

Bye.

There's no attempt to gain any information in most of it.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 16, 2014, 08:24:25 pm

Shorten

There's attempts, intended or not, to actually prevent the further gain of any information this day.

That's rediculous.  Our living IC is even participating in it.  This entire game is about communication and understanding each others' intentions.  Or not - throw away the chance to understand, gain information, and make reasoned choices about who to lynch.

The people calling the claim fishy, with or without voting him - that's not questioning like you called it, mastahcheese.  That's condemnation.  I didn't vote for him because I wanted more information, his choice of that range to react to - when I want someone dead I vote and I usually explain why.

What I did was interrogation - attacking does not invite or encourage interaction, it is a strike to cause pain, limitation, or destruction.  Would you say you are attacking me?  What benefit does that attack have for you?

I honestly feel secure that I am doing the right thing in talking to everyone I can, questioning people about what they and others have said - that includes 4maskwolf and everyone else I am speaking to.  Your interpretation of my intentions as presented in your post is grossly inaccurate.

---

---

Persus13, Nerjin: please explain your use of shorten in this situation.  Why was getting 4maskwolf lynched as quickly as possible and ending all further chances for information to be gained this day, from anyone more important than ending this day asap to you?


Nerjin, you have a few questions waiting for your attention.  Some are from me, but there's more than just those.  Do you think you'll be answering them anytime soon?


4maskwolf:  Hey guy.  These words are to you from me, as a person.  Nothing to do with the game, though you can use them however you please.  You are a desirable person (I'm referencing your comment about being an undesirable person - I disagree).  You are welcome here, I personally am glad you're here, and though I'm aware you're very possibly hating every moment of this game, and I'm keenly aware of your expressed frustration and dissatisfaction - I still hope that there are at least some moments of this that are enjoyable, or maybe will be in memory.  It's supposed to be a game, after all.  Myself, I'm still searching for the 'fun' in playing Mafia - I'm not sure it has any for me.  I play to practice certain skills, especially reading intention - stuff that might save my life someday.

But you are welcome here.  The votes on your character before you entered the game had nothing to do with you.  The pressure you feel 'against you', that's largely the current of the game and has absolutely nothing to do with -you-. It's situational, not personal.  I really hope you keep playing Mafia - and I want to make sure that you are aware that you don't have to finish this game, especially if it is upsetting you greatly - like, more than game-level of upset.  You can ask to be replaced, and a replacement will happen as fast as is possible to get one for you.  Granted, that might not be instant.  If you want that, just talk to Tiruin.  It'll happen.  And you'll still be completely welcome in the next BM game.  Replacing in really is very different from starting from scratch, I'm getting to learn that now too.

But I really want you to know I like you plenty, and I'm glad you're here.  Going back into the game mode now.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 09:29:06 pm

Imp, Mastahcheese is saying the thought I have been trying to formulate for a while now.  The moment I posted the first claim, you immediately started scumhunting me, without outright lynch voting.  The fact that I have made a total ass of myself notwithstanding, you were the only one to outright go on the offensive after that.

However, I am not willing to go as far as Mastahcheese.  If you were sure I was scum, I didn't notice it.  however, you spent a good deal of time parsing words in my posts, and flipped you opinion on my post of "my apologies for not posting a greeting".  One post you said that I had done a greeting, why did I say that, and the next post you put the same quote up again and say that it was more accurate than a post that clarified what I meant, in line with your previous post's question.

Yep, you'd said you were trying to Scumhunt me... at least that's what I interpret your words to mean.  And that you were not sure how.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 08:08:43 pm

And actually, I've been trying to build a case against imp, I just don't know what questions to ask.

Building cases, at least to me, that's different, that comes -after- the Scumhunting.  The case is what you lynch someone with, or at least you really try to convince others that your pick is the right pick to vote to lynch.

The most common advice of 'how' to Scumhunt involves asking questions that cannot be answered with one or two words.  Ask people 'why' questions, what they meant when they said something, what they believe others meant when things were said.  Ask questions you think you know the answers to as well as questions that you don't - and pay attention, both to the answers and your instincts, and anything else that gets your attention.

I expect you to Scumhunt anyone you choose and everyone you find suspicious - I expect that's more or less everyone you haven't yourself investigated or otherwise ruled out as being 'probably not Scum'. 

I too am Scumhunting, which is what the game is about.  I'm not just looking at you, and I didn't start Scumhunting you when you made your claim - but that claim sure gave me a solid focus to ask a lot of questions about, and that's something I don't have with  many of the other players yet.  This doesn't mean you are Scum or rule you out as Scum - but it does mean I can more easily focus on you now than, say, Sinless or Nerjin.  Nerjin's slowly giving me more to ask him about too, especially in regards to his interactions with you this last day.

The objections and concerns I expressed about your motives and actions are genuine questions; some of them you've answered directly, others indirectly, others not yet.  For the moment I'm done with putting pressure on you; recover your balance and do whatever it is you want to do (long as it doesn't harm anyone, including yourself!).  I'll be revisiting some questions in a few days.  I expect we're getting an extension, which will cover the weekend 'for free' and will extend into the early part of next week.

I wouldn't say you made an ass out of yourself - I am still trying to understand the whole of your play from your viewpoint (that's how I try to tell Town from Scum - I try to see as you see and thus see why you see the game and your goals the way you do).

As for me going 'outright on the offensive' - that's what I do.  If someone is here to play, I play with them.  If they're not - for example if someone were to essentially 'fence' with me with great distance and uninvolvement, then I have to make my decisions about that person without much help from them (as would we all).

About parsing words - what do we have except written words and their meanings?  I can't see you, hear your voice - your words are all I have, and to me they form a texture, a canvas, a world upon which I can walk and which provide sights to see.  The sight I am looking for is consistent 'feel' of your intention, so I can determine your alignment.  If I can't get that, then I guess it the best I can from what I do get.  My Scumhunting of you isn't going to do a thing to determine my alignment to you - you have to do that work for yourself, and I expect you to, when you're ready and however you choose.  It's normal and appropriate play, and how someone Scumhunts can be one of several large clues about their motives and attention.

As to my comments about your 'greeting' - After your role claim I understood that you had walked into the game with a subtle role claim - in fact you had laced one form of role claim or inspection result or another into just about every post you'd made before your claim.  That's why I reinterpreted your comment about not making a greeting - oh right, it wasn't a greeting, it was a subtle role claim.  That's what you considered it to be, that's why you didn't consider it to be a greeting.  Or am I misunderstanding how you thought?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 09:47:42 am

[modified out due to day end passing]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 17, 2014, 11:57:09 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 09:47:42 am

MOWE
You are the one with the oldest and most legitimate claim against me. How do you feel about the fact that three have joined you? Would you call it bandwagoning or a legitimate claim?

I don't think I'm the person with the oldest claim against you personally... am I? I'm not sure if you mean you or Pufferfish. My issue was with Pufferfish and I left the vote on you for pressure. Before you claimed, I was actually debating whether or not to take the vote off. But with other's reactions to your claim as well and other evidence, I think I'll unvote now.
 
I think everyone should just take a chill pill. Let's all stop bandwagoning just because we don't like how wolf is reacting to things. I know I'd be pretty damn pissed if I had to replace into his situation. As of now, I don't think you're scum.
 
If this doesn't prove how I feel about this, I don't like it. This has been a tangle of immature behavior.
 
Persus:
You really seemed to jump on that shorten and you seemed very eager to go after wolf. The only case you had against him is that he agreed with SBC's case on me. Why do you seem to be so eager for an easy lynch? Almost everyone else has at least acted like they regretted it or have backed out by now. What's your reason for staying on wolf's case?
 
Nerjin:
You were also somewhat eager to lynch him just because you thought he wanted it? You argued against his choice and then in a bout of rage, voted to shorten. Aren't you supposed to encourage us to NOT do things like that?
 
SBC:
You seem pretty bent on getting rid of wolf. If you hadn't fought with makeinu for most of D1, I'd think you were scum. But why are you so convinced that we're still going to lynch wolf?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 12:15:49 pm

Guys, Day end was 4 hours ago. Tiruin probably hasn't posted yet because of net issues.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Silthuri on January 17, 2014, 12:40:23 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 12:15:49 pm

Guys, Day end was 4 hours ago. Tiruin probably hasn't posted yet because of net issues. I'll answer your questions tomorrow MOWE.

Oh... :-[ Well I guess that makes some of my questions in my last post useless. I should really learn how to tell time...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Superblackcat on January 17, 2014, 06:39:29 pm

Quote

super black cat
One minute you were trying to get Nerjin to "stop he wifom", but you turned around and called for a lynch on me without any given explanation. Why?
When telling me I was still under suspicion, you used almost the exact same words that I did in my introductory post. Why? Are you trying to soft claim cop? Because a hard claim would be an immediate win.

Uh, That was to you. You were wifom-ing by voting yourself.

I'm not cop. I know a hard claim would be immediate win.

Unvote

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 06:40:11 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 12:15:49 pm

Guys, Day end was 4 hours ago. Tiruin probably hasn't posted yet because of net issues.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 06:40:26 pm

[modified out due to persus being right]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 06:42:56 pm

[modified out, irrelevant anyway]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 06:43:51 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 06:40:26 pm

If I read his post correctly it was only over two hours ago as I am now speaking.  I don't know if me or Persus got it wrong.

First of, Tiruin is a she. Secondly, there's a countdown clock linked in the description. Day ended about 11 hours ago.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 06:48:54 pm

[modified out]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 17, 2014, 10:28:17 pm

[Don't understand how shorten/extend works, modded out anyway.]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: makeinu on January 17, 2014, 10:32:27 pm

The vote board disagrees, according to the rules.

Quote from: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 01:44:14 am

Extension requests: 3
Shorten requests: 2

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extension remaining today.

Quote

Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring the opposite (1 shorten cancels 1 extend request and vice versa), or stating directly: opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.

Tiruin may make a different judgement, but from experience, the 3 Extend votes are countered by the two Shorten votes,which means you need 2 more Extend votes, above what have already been cast.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 10:49:47 pm

[rules lawyering blah blah blah, mod request caused modding out]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 10:55:14 pm

Checking back on the votes/extends (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4921480#msg4921480), wherein the count stops at all posts at Jan 17, 8am (...default forum time?).


*Checking*

---

---

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 10:49:47 pm

Makeinu is right about the rules.  Also, I saw Tiruin recently on the RTD boards, so she may update this soon.

Yes, my net somehow revived at about <half an hour ago!
Its on and off nature makes me hate its timing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 11:09:31 pm

:O

Editing~

Also I should really make an edition to the OP that shortens/extends should be bolded or else uncounted. Blargh.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: makeinu on January 17, 2014, 11:13:14 pm

MOAR FLAVOR TEXT NAO!!!

:P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Imp on January 17, 2014, 11:17:09 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 11:09:31 pm

Also I should really make an edition to the OP that shortens/extends should be bolded or else uncounted. Blargh.

Forgive my posting at night, but the rules already instruct us to bold those words:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

• Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 11:18:35 pm

Well I'm blind. :I

Alright, the count here is correct aaaaand~ (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4923291#msg4923291)this one too. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4923829#msg4923829) Now we proceed to the count until now. Wherein I catch up, because stoopid net.  ::)

Oh, and the timing of

Quote from: Persus13 on January 17, 2014, 12:15:49 pm

Guys, Day end was 4 hours ago. Tiruin probably hasn't posted yet because of net issues. I'll answer your questions tomorrow MOWE.

Is true.


Mm. All posts, after this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4924089#msg4924089) are invalidated.
The counts go at:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4maskwolf – extend (cancelled shorten)
Nerjin – shorten
Persus 13 – shorten
Mastahcheese – extend
SBC – extend
Imp – extend

> 4 extend, 2 shorten.
= 2 extend.
3 are needed.

...Y'know, I'd rather poke at the real rules here on day ends and all, but here comes me thinking 'maybe I should extend until Monday...'
Hmm.
Nah.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on January 17, 2014, 11:22:12 pm

[Not sure if actually game related but modded out per GM request anyway.]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 11:24:15 pm

[Modified out in accordance with mod request]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 2 has begun | Act II: Epilogue
Post by: Tiruin on January 17, 2014, 11:29:24 pm

"I will get this flavor in, by SUNDAY at least, and you will like it!"
--Tiruin, on a Saturday.

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• mastahcheese -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - mastahcheese
• Persus13 -
• 4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin,  Persus13
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting:   Sinlessmoon, Imp, 4maskwolf,

*Night 2 has begun and will end at most, on January 21, 2013 [Tuesday]  6:00 am [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=145&iso=20140121T06&year=2014&month=1&day=21&hour=6&min=0&sec=0&msg=Night%202%20End&fg1=99dbd4&fg2=a39de0&csz=1)] if all actions, if any, are sent before then.

* - Mentioned in the OP.

Extension requests: 4
Shorten requests: 2

3 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extension remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

4maskwolf/Pufferfish has been lynched! He was a Town Cop!

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play the one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of the Aspect, you resemble the notion of thought, balance, rationality, morality and holism deep within the weave of society. The role of the omnipresent eye is subjective, having different meanings to different cultures, but always interpreted as a character of scrutiny, judgement and wisdom. Your role takes the importance of those around you and interprets their value, both to the world and to the self.

As intangible as you are, your essence flows throughout each and every being in the world, both sentient and static. You give sight to all, and see all, however you do not intervene unless the very foundations of the world are at stake. The hypothetical goes: Why should the people be helped, if the people-various and different as they are- can help themselves?

You are of the Town Faction and have the power to Inspect another member in play to get their Alignment.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

The game has entered the night phase. No person may post during the night phase and the thread will be locked to ensure such.

Please submit your actions via PM, if any. The Night will end at the time stated or until all probable actions are sent in.

~If any personal modifications to the planet at this certain era is wanted--please do send in that request. Flavoring hasn't been this fun!~

---

---

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 06:48:54 pm

OH.  We're on manilla time.  Okay.

All I saw was the GMT and calc'd it from there.

I used the capital of my country instead of where I live. :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 2 has begun | Act II: Epilogue
Post by: Tiruin on January 18, 2014, 12:21:54 am

Err, guys? For those after Imp's post there, please [Modify out] your game-related posts, sans the technicality-ones. Thank you. :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 2 has begun | Act II: Epilogue
Post by: 4maskwolf on January 18, 2014, 07:38:06 pm

I'm told that I'm allowed one "bah" post, so here it goes.

While I freely admit that the cop claim was a horrible idea, I can only say "I told you so".  Had you people believed me, there may have been a no-lynch, resulting in one fewer town dead.

That said, you all did the right thing, looking back on it, so I don't hold it against you.  The cop claim, particularly in that context, was a bad choice and a possible scumtell.

GO TOWN!  BEAT MAFIA!

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 18, 2014, 10:33:47 pm

"...Did I mention I don't fare well with dates? Erm, apologies again..."
--Tiruin, on a Tuesday.

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp -
• Persus13 -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting: You six.

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 24, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=145&iso=20140124T21&year=2014&month=1&day=24&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&msg=Day%203%20End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

mastahcheese has been killed! He was a Vanilla Townsman!

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of a being of Color, you resemble the aspect of vibrance, variance and symbolism deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Color is always related to the meaning given to the environment, giving an interpretation to the different aspects of the tangible world. Your role is simple, utilizing only the mind in your play, but nevertheless important.

Inexperience is one characteristic that often shows, yet as an aspect of Earth, you should take heed to observe first before acting. Those around you may have ulterior motives, yet this does not stop one such as you in your path for knowledge. The pantheon of Light is forgiving, yet you should remember to stand by your beliefs, or be open-minded for correction. As they say, a rolling stone gathers no moss, and an idle stone is open to the elements.

You are of the Town Faction.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

---

---

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 18, 2014, 07:38:06 pm

I'm told that I'm allowed one "bah" post, so here it goes.

While I freely admit that the cop claim was a horrible idea, I can only say "I told you so".  Had you people believed me, there may have been a no-lynch, resulting in one fewer town dead.

That said, you all did the right thing, looking back on it, so I don't hold it against you.  The cop claim, particularly in that context, was a bad choice and a possible scumtell.

GO TOWN!  BEAT MAFIA!

>_>
You 'bah' at day. I had to leave this unlocked because of my... net.

Silly 4maskwolf. :P

~~~

Enjoy day start!
I've just been held up by...other stuff.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Mastahcheese being killed proves my theory. There was no NK before because no one was there to carry it out. I highly doubt there is a jailkeeper at this point because I'm sure they would have protected mastahcheese. He was still our strongest member so either there is no jailkeeper, or they messed up big time. Imp and Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 21, 2014, 09:13:40 am

I'd like to apologize to 4maskwolf. I should have taken some time to think over your claim, but instead I already had you pegged as scum because of you and Pufferfish's earlier actions, and when you claimed, the way you did it made me think you were scum fakeclaiming. I hope you continue to play Mafia in a better environment.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Mastahcheese being killed proves my theory. There was no NK before because no one was there to carry it out. I highly doubt there is a jailkeeper at this point because I'm sure they would have protected mastahcheese. He was still our strongest member so either there is no jailkeeper, or they messed up big time. Imp and Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

That doesn't necessarily prove your theory, it just gives more evidence indicating that possibility of it. And that doesn't necessarily rule out the  existence of the jailkeeper. If I was the jailkeeper and there was no Night Kill and one scum left one night, I'd block that same person the next night.

Imp: Who are top scum suspicions?
SBC: Same with you, who are your top suspects going into D3.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 21, 2014, 01:12:35 pm

Posting in a terrible rush, on my way to work then school, I'll be back late tonight.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

Nerjin, any chance when you reread D1 and D2, that you get around to the D2 questions you completely have ignored all of D2?  Mine but not just mine, and this isn't the first reminder I've made.  When you get around to those questions, I'd also like you to answer this one too:

Why have you been ignoring these questions for so long?  You appear to be completely cherry picking what you do and don't react to, and you are ignoring a lot of the game after 4maskwolf and I entered play.  Why?

MyOwnWorstEnemy

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Mastahcheese being killed proves my theory. There was no NK before because no one was there to carry it out. I highly doubt there is a jailkeeper at this point because I'm sure they would have protected mastahcheese. He was still our strongest member so either there is no jailkeeper, or they messed up big time. Imp and Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

I don't know why there wasn't a N1 kill.  4maskwolf claimed that Pufferfish inspected Mastahcheese N1 which suggests that highly inactive posters may indeed do night actions.  I know my last game with Sinlessmoon (the recent Paranormal), Sinlessmoon was a seriously inactive poster, even less active than here - but he used his night action.

My first BM, Superblackcat was Jailkeeper and I was arguably the strongest player, though there was no Cop to verify me Town.  Superblackcat never once protected me (and I was never picked for the night kill), though I didn't know that until game was over and night actions were posted.  It's easy to know what I would do if I were Jailkeeper, and easy to discuss reasonable play choices, but hard to say what each player is actually going to decide to do in the heat of the moment.  People can try to second guess others' second guesses and all kinds of weird things can happen.

What I do know is if we have a Jailkeeper we should cover that person, and it is not time for that player to roleclaim.  I'm not going to say anything about if I am Jailkeeper or not, or even discuss theoretically what my strategies would have been if I was, because I believe that information would be more useful to Scum than Town.

Persus, could you answer my left over question from D2 too, please?  I realized that I asked it weirdly, so struckthrough and clarified it:

Quote from: Imp on January 17, 2014, 07:03:08 am

Persus13, Nerjin: please explain your use of shorten in this situation.  Why was getting 4maskwolf lynched as quickly as possible and ending all further chances for information to be gained this day, from anyone more important than ending this day asap getting more information then to you?

Quote from: Persus13 on January 21, 2014, 09:13:40 am

Imp: Who are top scum suspicions?

Nerjin and Sinlessmoon are top right now.

Sinlessmoon:  Talk to us.  Your last post:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 15, 2014, 03:39:30 pm

Yeah, my semester is just ending for me. I don't think I'll replace, but I definitely won't have time for large posts. I will however come and check in on things frequently.

It's been a week.  How close to semester end are you now, are you more free or less?

You didn't interact at all with the 4mask situation, not to ask, answer, or vote.  Your last post was about two days before D2 end.

At this point, just start talking.  Tell us what you think about what is going on, what your suspicions are, what you think about the roleflips and play of the roleflipped, or what you think about each of us still in play with you - pick something that you think is very important about the game and start talking about it and asking questions about it.  What do you think is important in this game?  You're not asking questions, you're not giving any opinions, you're not interacting much on any level about any topic.  Do you have time to make short, content containing posts at least?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 21, 2014, 01:25:51 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 21, 2014, 01:12:35 pm

Persus, could you answer my left over question from D2 too, please?  I realized that I asked it weirdly, so struckthrough and clarified it:

Quote from: Imp on January 17, 2014, 07:03:08 am

Persus13, Nerjin: please explain your use of shorten in this situation.  Why was getting 4maskwolf lynched as quickly as possible and ending all further chances for information to be gained this day, from anyone more important than ending this day asap getting more information then to you?

When I voted to shorten it seemed like everyone had made up their minds on what to do that day, and ending the day seemed fine to me. I was wrong, but after that I had a lot of work to do, and didn't realize the situation had changed until day had already ended. I made a bad mistake, and now I'm regretting it.

Also, I almost forgot Sinlessmoon was playing.

Sinlessmoon, seriously, get in here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: mastahcheese on January 21, 2014, 06:15:39 pm

It's not like I can say that I wasn't expecting this at least a little bit.

Get to work, you guys.

*Mastahcheese vanishes into thin air, leaving behind pictures of spiders and demands for more flavor text.*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Extend

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

Is that why you are talking about inactivity, but being inactive?

Quote from: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

Are you giving advice to us, but 'backwards'?  Because if you're Town, you're part of the problem that you're talking about.  Except for your interaction with 4maskwolf's claim near the end of D2 you did almost nothing D2.  And now you're doing almost nothing again.

Almost nothing except good IC advice, oh, and telling us that "[the Scum] will feel much better about winning if [the Scum] wins against people who are actually doing something."

Feeling even guiltier about being IC and Scum?  Is it bothering you when you do talk to us, because you are showing us what it looks like when a Scum is "lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy"?

Does this theory hit home to you?  Do you think it's a reasonable theory?  Do you think it's true?

Tiruin:  Do people need prods from the prodgod?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 01:37:01 pm

Extend

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

The thing about a theory is that it needs evidence to support it. I don't see any evidence for it, and personally I see Nerjin as town.

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

Are you giving advice to us, but 'backwards'?  Because if you're Town, you're part of the problem that you're talking about.  Except for your interaction with 4maskwolf's claim near the end of D2 you did almost nothing D2.  And now you're doing almost nothing again.

Maybe his pick for scum is lurking. Like you know, Sinlessmoon.

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Feeling even guiltier about being IC and Scum?  Is it bothering you when you do talk to us, because you are showing us what it looks like when a Scum is "lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy"?

Imp, why are you ripping into Nerjin while citing little evidence besides your pet theory? And why would Scum Nerjin do that? Playing against scum playing for real is the only way to discover them.

Does this theory hit home to you?  Do you think it's a reasonable theory?  Do you think it's true?
[/quote]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 22, 2014, 03:05:45 pm

Extend

Nerjin: Please play the game. Seriously. What's the issue here?

Sinless: I'm cutting you some slack because I know what it's like to be in your situation. Please get back in ASAP if you would please.

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 21, 2014, 01:12:35 pm

MyOwnWorstEnemy

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Mastahcheese being killed proves my theory. There was no NK before because no one was there to carry it out. I highly doubt there is a jailkeeper at this point because I'm sure they would have protected mastahcheese. He was still our strongest member so either there is no jailkeeper, or they messed up big time. Imp and Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

I don't know why there wasn't a N1 kill.  4maskwolf claimed that Pufferfish inspected Mastahcheese N1 which suggests that highly inactive posters may indeed do night actions.  I know my last game with Sinlessmoon (the recent Paranormal), Sinlessmoon was a seriously inactive poster, even less active than here - but he used his night action.

My first BM, Superblackcat was Jailkeeper and I was arguably the strongest player, though there was no Cop to verify me Town.  Superblackcat never once protected me (and I was never picked for the night kill), though I didn't know that until game was over and night actions were posted. It's easy to know what I would do if I were Jailkeeper, and easy to discuss reasonable play choices, but hard to say what each player is actually going to decide to do in the heat of the moment.  People can try to second guess others' second guesses and all kinds of weird things can happen.
[...]

Fair enough. But especially after said strong town member who had been completely against someone who flipped scum and had been for the entire time, one could most likely be assured that they're town, and a strong and active one at that. I'm sure even us beginners understand that's someone worth protecting. AND with no NK, wouldn't the jail keeper be assured that they protected the right person and keep it up?

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 01:37:01 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

The thing about a theory is that it needs evidence to support it. I don't see any evidence for it, and personally I see Nerjin as town.

What about Nerjin makes you think he's town? He hasn't really played much. Although I'm not sure I buy into Imp's theory, it's certainly possible. I don't think it would be good for any of us if they both went in guns blazing, so this may very well be true. But it's just a theory. Just like my JK theory. Speaking of which...

Quote from: Persus13 on January 21, 2014, 09:13:40 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Mastahcheese being killed proves my theory. There was no NK before because no one was there to carry it out. I highly doubt there is a jailkeeper at this point because I'm sure they would have protected mastahcheese. He was still our strongest member so either there is no jailkeeper, or they messed up big time. Imp and Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

That doesn't necessarily prove your theory, it just gives more evidence indicating that possibility of it. And that doesn't necessarily rule out the  existence of the jailkeeper. If I was the jailkeeper and there was no Night Kill and one scum left one night, I'd block that same person the next night.

I see. Note to self: Don't post just after waking up. I should have thought about this more. What I actually mean is that this is proof of my theory. I looked back at the OP and there's a possibility that there is no JK. With the evidence provided, I'm convinced that there's a huge chance that there isn't one.

Tiruin: I just noticed that you kept me down as voting for wolf. Is the post where I unvoted invalid? If so, would you like for me to go back and get rid of it?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 22, 2014, 05:20:34 pm

PFP

Persus, I'm going to give Nerjin a day and a half to answer me before I answer you about what I said to him.  If he hasn't responded by Thursday night, at least to say he needs more time, I'll assume his answer is 'no answer' and go from there.

MyOwnWorstEnemy

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 22, 2014, 03:05:45 pm

Fair enough. But especially after said strong town member who had been completely against someone who flipped scum and had been for the entire time, one could most likely be assured that they're town, and a strong and active one at that. I'm sure even us beginners understand that's someone worth protecting. AND with no NK, wouldn't the jail keeper be assured that they protected the right person and keep it up?

Maybe.  A Jailkeeper can stop a kill two ways, by targeting Scum or the Scum's target.  Either is the right person that first night, but the Scum can pick a different target each night, so the Jailkeeper may or may not be able to prevent later kills by holding their target (if they picked the Scum's target, not the Scum).  However, with just one Scum alive a Jailkeeper is confirming people as being Town, at least to themself, if they target someone and there's still a night kill - whoever was protected could not have done the kill.  We already know that if we have a Jailkeeper, that Jailkeeper did not target either 4maskwolf (4mask was able to inspect) or Mastahcheese (Mastah was able to be inspected) N1.  Maybe that Jailkeeper did pick the same target night 2 as they had picked night 1, but this failed to prevent the N2 kill (this would suggest that the Jailkeeper's target N1 was the Scum target N1, or that there was no Scum target N1, and since there was a night kill, the protected person could not have done it - that protected person is Town, though only the Jailkeeper knows this is proven).

You seem rather interested in the Jailkeeper and if we have one or not.  What benefit do you think discussing the possible Jailkeeper's actions has for Town and/or the Jailkeeper himself, if we have one?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:02:15 pm

Extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 09:14:27 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:02:15 pm

Extend

No read on today? No nothing?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:22:11 pm

Re-reading Persus.

First off, sorry. Bay12 managed to fall out of my head, and I forgot I had anything to do with anything here.

Secondly

I'm quite mad at myself, for not dropping the vote yesterday against 4mask, when there was obviously no... other cop claims.

But lets take a look at the people who did vote 4mask.

4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin,  Persus13

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

But we really can't do anything right now but to wait for people to trickle back... or for this game to die.

There is three people still here right now. And I don't feel a real scum feel from any of you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 09:47:10 pm

SBC:

I've stated my 4maskwolf case at least once. My case against him was that he claimed cop for feeling pressured, when it didn't seem like anyone was pressuring him, being suspicious of MOWE and restating SBC's case against MOWE two posts after SBC, and seemed to be acting like new scum fakeclaiming cop.

I've noticed there's been a trend in you asking people about their cases against people. Why do you do this instead of going back through the thread and forming your own conclusions?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 22, 2014, 09:57:09 pm

"Everyone needs hugs."

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - Persus13
• Persus13 -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin - Imp
• Not Voting:

The day has been extended with 4 requests. Please remember that the GMT//UTC +8 is a link to the time counter. :)

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 28, 2013 [Tuesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140128T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There is one possible extension remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote

Tiruin:  Do people need prods from the prodgod?

The Nerjin and the Sinless have been prodded (and were prodded before, but the message is not in my outbox so they're prodded again!) I am unsure whether both were sent though. :S

Quote

Tiruin: I just noticed that you kept me down as voting for wolf. Is the post where I unvoted invalid? If so, would you like for me to go back and get rid of it?

Well you could copy and paste it right now into this day's posts, as I said all posts after Imp's are declared void and unneeded. :)
So yes. It is invalid (due to strict time schedule).
I'm ok if you keep it, but if you'd like to set the line wherein the post is declared null, then thank you either way.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 11:37:55 am

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

Is that why you are talking about inactivity, but being inactive?

I'll post more at home as I'm at college right now and really should be doing my work but I made a commitment to you guys... One I'm rather failing at.

but first allow me to propose an alternate hypothesis: 4mask got mafia and I don't know what he was thinking at all because I got town. Vanilla town to be specific. Now, let's say I'm an IC who prefers teaching people directly and letting them feel things out on their own, stepping in as needed. NOW let's assume that I come in and give advice and people all start posting and... MY GOD! They're pretty competent from my point of view.

Now let's say this town finds mafia Day 1. Good job guys! Now let's say that I think 'Well they've got this other than the lurking bit. So I'll hark on that.'

Day 2 goes by with pretty good scum-hunting. Nothing on par with the pros but pretty damn decent. I think to myself 'I'm not really needed here with the several returning players [who probably didn't need this in the first place] and the new guys are pretty good and one of them is actually REALLY good in his first game.' Now let's bring that back to the fact that I like teaching through actually teaching. There's not much to teach other than 'Don't lurk and keep it-' Uh oh...

More people replaced in. Hm... So this has ceased being a BM to me in terms of gameplay and just a very basic game of mafia. I think to myself 'Eh... I'm not really needed. I'll keep an eye out.'

Is that the best thing I've ever done? No. But I did it. I'll try to say stuff where needed but I feel like I'm a redundant factor here. I'm just a player with fancier sig-text.

You guys are doing well from what I see.

Except... Well you're floundering right here but I'll discuss that when I get home. come on imp, you're better than this baseless attack.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 23, 2014, 01:21:41 pm

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 05:20:34 pm

MyOwnWorstEnemy

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 22, 2014, 03:05:45 pm

Fair enough. But especially after said strong town member who had been completely against someone who flipped scum and had been for the entire time, one could most likely be assured that they're town, and a strong and active one at that. I'm sure even us beginners understand that's someone worth protecting. AND with no NK, wouldn't the jail keeper be assured that they protected the right person and keep it up?

Maybe.  A Jailkeeper can stop a kill two ways, by targeting Scum or the Scum's target.  Either is the right person that first night, but the Scum can pick a different target each night, so the Jailkeeper may or may not be able to prevent later kills by holding their target (if they picked the Scum's target, not the Scum).  However, with just one Scum alive a Jailkeeper is confirming people as being Town, at least to themself, if they target someone and there's still a night kill - whoever was protected could not have done the kill.  We already know that if we have a Jailkeeper, that Jailkeeper did not target either 4maskwolf (4mask was able to inspect) or Mastahcheese (Mastah was able to be inspected) N1.  Maybe that Jailkeeper did pick the same target night 2 as they had picked night 1, but this failed to prevent the N2 kill (this would suggest that the Jailkeeper's target N1 was the Scum target N1, or that there was no Scum target N1, and since there was a night kill, the protected person could not have done it - that protected person is Town, though only the Jailkeeper knows this is proven).

You seem rather interested in the Jailkeeper and if we have one or not.  What benefit do you think discussing the possible Jailkeeper's actions has for Town and/or the Jailkeeper himself, if we have one?

I'm using what I think a JK would do to prove that there isn't one, and further explain my thoughts about what's happened the last two nights. I hadn't meant to dwell on this, actually, but I haven't had a choice. Initially, it was just a small suspicion I had in my head that had been forming since there was no night kill. My only interest in the presence/absence of a JK is what it tells me about the scum's actions. The reason I'm so interested about the JK, which I think I've said before, is that I believe that there is a great possibility that one of the (ex)lurkers are scum. No night kill on the first night and then the kill of the best player the second night made me quite suspicious. This all is my attempt to explain this situation. But it is simply a theory filled with WIFOM. 

You put forth good arguments, and I'm well aware of how the JK works. As you said, the JK obviously didn't protect mastahcheese because he was able to be inspected. If there are two players (Persus and I) who claim that mastahcheese is a great town member and he was, arguably, the most active player we had, wouldn't that send up a flag for both the JK and the scum?

SBC:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:22:11 pm

4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin,  Persus13

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 17, 2014, 11:57:09 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 17, 2014, 09:47:42 am

MOWE
You are the one with the oldest and most legitimate claim against me. How do you feel about the fact that three have joined you? Would you call it bandwagoning or a legitimate claim?

I don't think I'm the person with the oldest claim against you personally... am I? I'm not sure if you mean you or Pufferfish. My issue was with Pufferfish and I left the vote on you for pressure. Before you claimed, I was actually debating whether or not to take the vote off. But with other's reactions to your claim as well and other evidence, I think I'll unvote  now.

Since I'm allowed to use this, I'll point out that unvoted him. It was, however, a bit too late because the day had already ended before I was able to post from a computer. As I said, my vote remained on him for so long solely for pressure and my lack of access to a computer with internet. With what happened, I feel like a douchebag, but that was my main reason. I didn't think there would be another cop claim because I've heard that claiming is very rarely a good idea. As everyone's childish behavior persisted, I started to find it hard to believe that he was scum. He was just too desperate and that was a shitty situation to be thrown into in the first place.

Nerjin:

If you don't have advice for us, could you please just play with us? Perhaps not to the full extent of your ability, but be here at least. If we're all decent players in your mind, then just enjoy a pleasant game with friends. Or is this what goes against your style?

Persus:

Answer my question please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 01:31:12 pm

MOWE:

In fact, Mastahcheese was confirmed town, since 4maskwolf was a confirmed cop who said he inspected mastahcheese and he came up town.

also, can you please give a link? I wasn't aware that I had a question from you I hadn't answered.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 02:53:38 pm

I'm just gonna go through and answer as many questions that I missed as I can before I have to go home. Then I'll answer the rest. Unfortunately that means this will be in chronological order.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 10, 2014, 01:23:45 pm

Nerjin: So you say you read through our posts? Did you actually read through our posts? Since I voted him for that. Yes. But if you didn't see, I stayed on him for multiple reasons, that kept compounding as the game went on.

Yes, I was trying to make a point because it didn't look like you  had read MOWE's

---

Quote from: Persus13 on January 12, 2014, 12:49:43 pm

What are your thought on Makeinu flipping scum? Who were your top suspects prior to N1? Who are they now?

I was pretty fuckin' excited when I saw it. It's not often you see a proper Mafia Lynch on day 1 [seriously, don't expect it as a rule] but that was pretty neat. I hadn't really formed a top suspect that I recall. Right now? I'd say Imp due to her flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon. I don't want to say she's scum though because I honestly think she's better than that.

---

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Is this style something you're still experimenting with and figuring out how to use?  Would you recommend it to others?  How much of it feels like Scumhunting to you, and how much reporting observations and providing feedback?  Or is reporting and feedback a major part of Scumhunting?  Can you suggest how your style could be read to interpret it for intent and alignment?  It really looks like a wall to me this game.

Ooh, I like this because it's something I need to think about in terms of EVERY game I'm going to be in. Yes, it is still a highly experimental playstyle to me and I think I'm coming up on a couple of flaws of it [as well as not using it (likely for the remained of this game though it should be back in my next one.)]. Anyways I wouldn't recommend it for other players as I'm still not sure about it. Oh... 

You mean how I'm playing this game and not the overall formatting don't you. No, I'm playing pretty poorly due to me trying to teach more than play. I guess you guys have outgrown the need for that and, as a result, I'll be back to actually playing tonight [not yet though]. It IS pretty helpful to me when it comes to keeping track of everyone though so I'm probably gonna keep experimenting with it. If it falls short then I apologize.

---

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 01:05:36 am

Oh, and Nerjin, we haven't heard from you since Imp and I came into the game. Does this effect your game plan at all, and did anything we have done force you to reevaluate the people in question.

Eh, no more than replacements generally do. Also, bolding is easier to notice than italics so just keep that in mind.

---

Quote from: Imp on January 17, 2014, 07:03:08 am

Persus13, Nerjin: please explain your use of shorten in this situation.  Why was getting 4maskwolf lynched as quickly as possible and ending all further chances for information to be gained this day, from anyone more important than ending this day asap to you?


Nerjin, you have a few questions waiting for your attention.  Some are from me, but there's more than just those.  Do you think you'll be answering them anytime soon?

Because I don't take well to that kind of emotional appeal and... well honestly jerk behavior. Acting like a four year old when you're losing makes the game worse for everyone. If he wanted to end it early like that who was I to stop him. Acting like that only convinced me he was scum. He did apologize but... *Shrug* hindsight and all.

Not as soon as I'd have liked I'll admit.

---

So that was all the questions towards me that I saw up until the end of the day. if you posted a question to me after that please re-ask it and I'll answer it up front. As it stands I'll probably spend a few hours when I get home on moving past the 'teaching' phase and onto the actual playing phase. Yes, Imp, this includes answering questions from Day 3 that I have. [For I do see at least one]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:50:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Extend

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

Is that why you are talking about inactivity, but being inactive?

Quote from: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

Are you giving advice to us, but 'backwards'?  Because if you're Town, you're part of the problem that you're talking about.  Except for your interaction with 4maskwolf's claim near the end of D2 you did almost nothing D2.  And now you're doing almost nothing again.

Almost nothing except good IC advice, oh, and telling us that "[the Scum] will feel much better about winning if [the Scum] wins against people who are actually doing something."

Feeling even guiltier about being IC and Scum?  Is it bothering you when you do talk to us, because you are showing us what it looks like when a Scum is "lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy"?

Does this theory hit home to you?  Do you think it's a reasonable theory?  Do you think it's true?

Alright, let's reply to this in full now since I have basically unlimited time. Since you are Imp and are, therefore, a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player I have only this to say: I'm very disappointed in what you're doing here.

Imp is a player who, though almost needlessly verbose, is quite competent despite her relative newness. Thus I'm holding her to a higher standard. This attack and vote [obviously a pressure vote] had absolutely ZERO evidence behind it other than 'This sounds like a plausible situation people might jump at if I phrase it properly.'

A pure attack of opportunity that she probably developed within ten minutes of posting it. It DOES sound like something that might happen. EXCEPT that it would be a GROSS violation of my IC duties. Despite my other shortcomings I follow the spirit of ICing very seriously. I am here to teach. I have done just that.

Let me be totally frank with you Imp your theory is trash as is your reason for voting me. I'm curious about something: Why did you put it forward and vote me on absolutely NO evidence?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:59:52 pm

I suck... Remember kids, the preview button is your friend.

---

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

Your theory that scum didn't kill night 1 due to internet restrictions they may have had? It has its merits I suppose but isn't really relevant in any way I can see. Either we have a JK or we don't We shouldn't be looking for a JK or a cop [had ours still been alive]. We are town. We shouldn't care who our power roles are. Instead we should focus on finding the people who want to find our power roles. That is to say, Scum.

Quote from: Imp on January 21, 2014, 01:12:35 pm

Why have you been ignoring these questions for so long?  You appear to be completely cherry picking what you do and don't react to, and you are ignoring a lot of the game after 4maskwolf and I entered play.  Why?

I believe I've answered this before so I'll keep this short: Everyone seemed competent enough so the game became less "Teach the newbs" and more "Play mafia with very few power roles in the game". *Shrug*. As for 'ignoring' questions I kept forgetting to actually answer them. Totally my fault on that one I'll admit.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 23, 2014, 06:52:38 pm

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:59:52 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 21, 2014, 07:50:10 am

Nerjin, what are your views on this theory? Why do you think things worked out the way they have?

Your theory that scum didn't kill night 1 due to internet restrictions they may have had? It has its merits I suppose but isn't really relevant in any way I can see. Either we have a JK or we don't We shouldn't be looking for a JK or a cop [had ours still been alive]. We are town. We shouldn't care who our power roles are. Instead we should focus on finding the people who want to find our power roles. That is to say, Scum.

I wasn't actually looking for the JK and when did I mention internet restrictions? ...Oh. So you're implying that I think just because someone didn't post, they're scum? I'm just trying to use what happened to try to prove my theory that one of the lurkers is scum. I don't care if there is one or not. I care only about what it means for the scum. I have virtually nothing to go on right now and this seemed like the best way to go. Although the more I talk about it, the more ridiculous it sounds. I'm going to drop this theory and try to find something more solid to go on...

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 01:31:12 pm

MOWE:

In fact, Mastahcheese was confirmed town, since 4maskwolf was a confirmed cop who said he inspected mastahcheese and he came up town.

also, can you please give a link? I wasn't aware that I had a question from you I hadn't answered.

The question be here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4942367#msg4942367 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4942367#msg4942367)

Also, when I spoke of mastahcheese, I know he was confirmed town in many different ways. But on D1, we didn't know that. That's sort of the thing I was going for.

---

I'm not even going to pursue this theory any more. The more you guys question it the stupider it sounds... I'll revisit some old suspicions and see what I can dig up.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 06:57:17 pm

When Nerjin's been playing instead of giving IC advice, he's done a decent job playing as town. My only problem with him is that he's lurking a lot, which I think is more attributable to real life stuff than anything else.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 23, 2014, 09:50:15 pm

Woohoo! I am done my exams, I will try and post something soon now that I have a bunch of free time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 10:09:53 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 23, 2014, 09:50:15 pm

Woohoo! I am done my exams, I will try and post something soon now that I have a bunch of free time.

Glad to hear it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 10:41:23 pm

Persus

Quote

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

But we really can't do anything right now but to wait for people to trickle back... or for this game to die.

There is three people still here right now. And I don't feel a real scum feel from any of you.

I don't believe you answered that ever.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 10:47:03 pm

I wasn't aware that something in there required answering.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 10:51:29 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 10:41:23 pm

Persus

Quote

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 10:58:29 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 10:51:29 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 10:41:23 pm

Persus

Quote

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

I've already responded to this question at least once, today, and continuing to ask won't change it. I was suspicious of 4mask because of how he seemed to be quoting another player's case, and he claimed cop strangely, when there wasn't a lot of pressure on him, which seemed like he was panicky scum. He went about it wrong and seemed more like scum claiming cop than a real cop.

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 11:42:46 pm

But you didn't notice the lack of a CC?

(I believe one of you guys are scum)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 11:57:55 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 11:42:46 pm

But you didn't notice the lack of a CC?

(I believe one of you guys are scum)

It's possible for there not to be a cop in this set up. I regret what I did yesterday, and I especially feel bad that I didn't take into account 4mask being fairly new to being Mafia. However, I also think you are drawing your net a little too narrow. Make sure to pay attention to the other players.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 10:57:26 pm

When does day end?

And Why has no one posted in the past 24 hours? Seriously, we can only win by being active. And I have questions posed to several people who haven't responded.

The only two votes today so far have been me on Imp, and Imp on Nerjin. Anyone have thoughts?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 24, 2014, 11:40:35 pm

":/ You are not pleased?"

---

---

• Superblackcat -
• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp - Persus13
• Persus13 -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin - Imp
• Not Voting:

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 28, 2013 [Tuesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140128T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There is one possible extension remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

I feel like everyone ignores me :/ Wow.

---

---

Quote from: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 10:57:26 pm

When does day end?

And Why has no one posted in the past 24 hours? Seriously, we can only win by being active. And I have questions posed to several people who haven't responded.

The only two votes today so far have been me on Imp, and Imp on Nerjin. Anyone have thoughts?

Weekends make people busy.
I believe nobody has read my day time posts, especially the note that there is a TIMER LINK? >__>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 11:53:21 pm

I've used that timer multiple times. That's how I realized day was over yesterday. In fact, After I posted the post you quoted, I went back t find the last post you made and used the countdown.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 24, 2014, 11:57:39 pm

Actually, no. The previous post has the same timer. And it's still ticking. >_>
Nobody does listen to me. Thank you nobody.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 12:01:07 am

I'm here Persus, But there isn't any thing to be said.

Extend and hopefully more people will come.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 25, 2014, 09:46:32 am

Quote from: Tiruin on January 24, 2014, 11:57:39 pm

Actually, no. The previous post has the same timer. And it's still ticking. >_>
Nobody does listen to me. Thank you nobody.

Now I'm confused. I'm saying that after I had posted my question about when day ended, and before you had posted I went back to click on the countdown timer on the then last update post you had made, which answered my day end question.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 12:01:07 am

I'm here Persus, But there isn't any thing to be said.

Extend and hopefully more people will come.

Really? If there isn't anything to be said, then why don't change that. This entire game, I've seen very little scumhunting from you, and instead you've just been sitting passively in a corner and occasionally asking questions. You asked me and Nerjin why we voted 4maskwolf, hen you could go back to D2 and read what we said then yourself. You seem like you are active lurking, and I don't like that. And as a matter of fact, there is something to be said, as you could answer this question I posed to you:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 10:58:29 pm

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 25, 2014, 10:03:31 am

Sorry everyone! I went to send a post last night and the computer apparently ate it because it just disappeared.  :( Stupid technology...

Anyways, I'm back now, I think.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 10:57:26 pm

And Why has no one posted in the past 24 hours? Seriously, we can only win by being active. And I have questions posed to several people who haven't responded.

Am I one of those people? If so, would you mind posting a link or something?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Quote

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

First of all, That in a way, is part of my scumhunting. Secondly, I don't have a base to jump off of. And I've been busy.

---

Sinlessmoon, You here? Who do you think is scum? and Why?

Persus Why aren't you scumhunting?

Nerjin Why did you not vote Makeinu, but vote Sinless? What was the reasoning behind that?

Imp Could we have a thought of how well you think we played the first two days, since you watched us as a spectator? (So before you joined).

MOWE How do you think we should proceed from here?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 25, 2014, 11:43:11 am

SBC:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

MOWE How do you think we should proceed from here?

Well... I think it's a good idea to go back and reread through the thread. Look back on people's actions, reasons, and cases, and see what the relationship they'd had with those who have been lynched or killed were like. We seem to be running out of leads as of late, so I think we need to remedy that.

---

Persus:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Quote

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

First of all, That in a way, is part of my scumhunting. Secondly, I don't have a base to jump off of. And I've been busy.

Trying to catch people in a lie or with faulty logic seems like a decent scumhunting technique to me, especially with nothing else to go on.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 25, 2014, 02:56:40 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Persus Why aren't you scumhunting?

????
I'm mainly waiting on Imp to respond to me, and I'm trying to get other people active. I'm attacking your strategy for finding scum, and also, what's your case against Nerjin?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 25, 2014, 11:43:11 am

Persus:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Quote

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

First of all, That in a way, is part of my scumhunting. Secondly, I don't have a base to jump off of. And I've been busy.

Trying to catch people in a lie or with faulty logic seems like a decent scumhunting technique to me, especially with nothing else to go on.

Yes, but restricting your opinion of who you think is scum to two people and questioning them but not following up is not my idea of scumhunting. He's been much more active in Limerick as well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 25, 2014, 03:35:44 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 25, 2014, 02:56:40 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Persus Why aren't you scumhunting?

????
I'm mainly waiting on Imp to respond to me, and I'm trying to get other people active. I'm attacking your strategy for finding scum, and also, what's your case against Nerjin?

He doesn't have one. It's a pressure post at best and a weak attempt to start a band wagon at worst. You learn to spot these things; when people don't actually have a case on you. Notice how its worded? It implies that I knew Makeinu was scum and purposefully didn't vote for him while voting someone else. Plus, he could easily, EASILY, find my reasons for voting whom I voted just be reading the thread again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 25, 2014, 03:36:12 pm

Preview is your friend...

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Nerjin Why did you not vote Makeinu, but vote Sinless? What was the reasoning behind that?

Imp Could we have a thought of how well you think we played the first two days, since you watched us as a spectator? (So before you joined).

MOWE How do you think we should proceed from here?

Hm, what wonderful questions. Allow me to tell you why most of them are awful. In order, no less.

I voted Sinless because I didn't really think Makeinu was scum and really had no feeling on anyone else. Thus I decided to simply get rid of the lurker.

Your question to Imp has no in game relevance other than trying to find out if she thinks you're acting towny enough. Questions like that ARE A WASTE OF EVERYONE'S TIME!

Your question to MOWE follows into the same category. You're trying to attach yourself to MOWE in order to find out how town is acting and then follow it without taking any risks.

If you're going to post useless questions please do so on your own time.

---

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 02:08:48 pm

Is this your IC advice? Or your scumhunting techniques?

Cuz whichever one it is, It's really bad.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 02:08:48 pm

Is this your IC advice? Or your scumhunting techniques?

Cuz whichever one it is, It's really bad.

It looks like both, Superblackcat. It looks like both.

I've seen you do much better than you are doing right now. Tons better, both in this game, and in previous and current ones.

Nerjin responded to your loaded question and answered well, then gave you IC advice. And guess what? Despite asking those questions, you're still not scumhunting! Those questions were conversations starters yes, but not designed to get answers you could follow up on, attack, or anything else.

And despite you voting Nerjin, I have yet to see you lay out a convincing case on why he is scum.

Oh and by the way, what was your case on Makeinu? Who would you have lynched yesterday instead of 4maskwolf? What's your plan tomorrow if Nerjin turns out town? I'm planning on going back on rereading the game, but I want to hear your take on those days now.

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

Sinlessmoon: Glad you're done with your exams, however, I thought you said you planned on posting?

Imp: I know your busy, but I want to hear you back up your theory you have that you currently have cited no evidence or anything for that states Nerjin is scum. Why do you think that's plausible? Because currently it looks like either baseless speculation or a scum ploy to get Nerjin lynched.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

Persus: First of all, Nerjin, as an IC, has been one of the most inactive people here, while he keeps bugging us about activity. He is the only voting person of both days, that did not vote Makeinu, and did vote 4mask. His play this game is really crappy, and given how he is IC, he should be better, as well as the fact that He has not heeded any of his own advice...

I frankly just dislike his game immensely as well as see him jump in, talk about nothing (Oh wait, he calls these IC advice) participates nada in the game, then be gone for a long time, comes back when there is pressure, almost like he is active lurking, says some of that bullshit IC advice, and leaves.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 26, 2014, 06:03:59 pm

"Emotional details prevented the posting of flavor."

---

---

• 0 Superblackcat -
• 0 Sinlessmoon -
• 1 Imp - Persus13
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 2 Nerjin - Imp, Superblackcat
• 3 Not Voting: Everyone else.

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 28, 2013 [Tuesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140128T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 1
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There is one possible extension remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Tiruin flops and profusely apologizes. For her everything.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 26, 2014, 06:12:46 pm

Extend

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

I have not voted today because I had no idea who to vote for. Two of our players aren't really here, I've always been suspicious of you, and the only reason I haven't been voting SBC is because he fought with makeinu most of the first day. ALTHOUGH I'm staring to suspect that we've all been played. What if SBC and makeinu planned this? Sure one of them would get lynched, but then the other would not be high on our list of suspects. Neither of them really seemed to have a good case against the other. Now, SBC seems to have grown comfortable in his safe spot, asking questions that amount to nothing and attacking an IC that, I will admit, has an odd way of teaching, but has still done his job. He got us playing in the first damn place. As for MYLO, I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so, I'm going to be damn sure of who I'm voting for. If we mislynch again today, I'm not entirely sure how I would proceed. Perhaps rereading everything for the hundredth time and go from there.
Waddya say, Superblackcat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 08:05:49 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

Persus: First of all, Nerjin, as an IC, has been one of the most inactive people here, while he keeps bugging us about activity.

Perhaps he's busy, and while he has been inactive, he isn't the only one. He may be a hypocrite, but he is obviously trying to play.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

He is the only voting person of both days, that did not vote Makeinu, and did vote 4mask. His play this game is really crappy, and given how he is IC, he should be better, as well as the fact that He has not heeded any of his own advice...

You know what I like? Evidence. Your evidence of his voting patterns is good, but stating he has consistently failed to follow his own advice is a generalization I can only think of one example of, which is him being inactive. My other problem with this is your failure to look far more deeply into voting. Did you consider the possibility that one of the makeinu votes was a bus? Did you consider that a sly scum would side with the town player who claimed cop in order to get townie points? Did you go back and look to see why Nerjin voted Sinlessmoon and when? Did you see that Mastahcheese, who's been considered essentially confirmed town, voted Sinlessmoon at the exact same time Nerjin did, only Nerjin didn't seem to be around for day end, and Mastahcheese was.

You just ticked of some of my pet peeves. I have a high opinion of scum players, so I rarely go after lurkers. Because good scum know the easiest way to hide from the town is by being in the middle of the hunters, and going after the easy scumlike town to get them killed. So I try not to focus on the easy targets, like lurkers, and on who is hunting them. Like Makeinu. Like you and Imp.

And here's another annoyance I have. Not only are you joining a bandwagon, you only started scumhunting after I pressed you. And I'm sorry, but it felt like scum pretending to hunt scum. You made no effort to increase information. You asked a leading question about Nerjin that made him look like scum and didn't present any evidence against it until pressed.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 06:12:46 pm

Extend

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

I have not voted today because I had no idea who to vote for. Two of our players aren't really here, I've always been suspicious of you, and the only reason I haven't been voting SBC is because he fought with makeinu most of the first day. ALTHOUGH I'm staring to suspect that we've all been played. What if SBC and makeinu planned this? Sure one of them would get lynched, but then the other would not be high on our list of suspects. Neither of them really seemed to have a good case against the other. Now, SBC seems to have grown comfortable in his safe spot, asking questions that amount to nothing and attacking an IC that, I will admit, has an odd way of teaching, but has still done his job. He got us playing in the first damn place. As for MYLO, I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so, I'm going to be damn sure of who I'm voting for. If we mislynch again today, I'm not entirely sure how I would proceed. Perhaps rereading everything for the hundredth time and go from there.
Waddya say, Superblackcat?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 06:12:46 pm

Extend

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

I have not voted today because I had no idea who to vote for. Two of our players aren't really here, I've always been suspicious of you, and the only reason I haven't been voting SBC is because he fought with makeinu most of the first day. ALTHOUGH I'm staring to suspect that we've all been played. What if SBC and makeinu planned this? Sure one of them would get lynched, but then the other would not be high on our list of suspects. Neither of them really seemed to have a good case against the other. Now, SBC seems to have grown comfortable in his safe spot, asking questions that amount to nothing and attacking an IC that, I will admit, has an odd way of teaching, but has still done his job. He got us playing in the first damn place. As for MYLO, I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so, I'm going to be damn sure of who I'm voting for. If we mislynch again today, I'm not entirely sure how I would proceed. Perhaps rereading everything for the hundredth time and go from there.
Waddya say, Superblackcat?

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 06:12:46 pm

Extend

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

I have not voted today because I had no idea who to vote for. Two of our players aren't really here, I've always been suspicious of you, and the only reason I haven't been voting SBC is because he fought with makeinu most of the first day. ALTHOUGH I'm staring to suspect that we've all been played. What if SBC and makeinu planned this? Sure one of them would get lynched, but then the other would not be high on our list of suspects. Neither of them really seemed to have a good case against the other. Now, SBC seems to have grown comfortable in his safe spot, asking questions that amount to nothing and attacking an IC that, I will admit, has an odd way of teaching, but has still done his job. He got us playing in the first damn place. As for MYLO, I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so, I'm going to be damn sure of who I'm voting for. If we mislynch again today, I'm not entirely sure how I would proceed. Perhaps rereading everything for the hundredth time and go from there.
Waddya say, Superblackcat?

Are you a mindreader? Because you are thinking many of the things I've been wondering about too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

Well I've been saying for some time that the only reason I'm not voting for SBC is that he spent most of D1 bickering with makeinu. Then it occurred to me that this would be possible. Although I must ask: why did you quote me three times and why haven't you said anything before?

Also, SBC...

Spoiler: Extremely Angry Rant Eminent (click to show/hide)

An IC isn't in the game to win it. They are here to help us out. Sure, I would very much prefer it if Nerjin would just play along with us, but I'm not going to lynch him for it and risk losing the game. Besides, when he was here, he seemed quite town to me. You're just wanting to lynch him because you think he's a shitty IC. That's not a reason! That doesn't mean he's scum! We can't afford this right now! You don't care for his game? Oh well. You don't have to be a jerk to him when he's basically complimenting us. We don't need teaching, so he isn't here. I don't like it very much, but that's just how it is. If I've heard right, he's got a ton of other stuff to be doing instead of babysitting us. In one of the BM's I read through, Nerjin was an IC as well and I know something FOR A FACT: He wouldn't hide behind the title of IC!

HIS ADVICE IS NOT BULLSHIT!!!!! He was the one who encouraged me to start talking. I'm not scared of posting anymore, hence why I'm getting after your ass right now. I'd say we all learned from him pushing us. It seems to me that Nerjin was here mostly in the beginning when he thought we needed him. He's gradually reduced his presence, letting us go about it ourselves. If you're so damn good, why aren't YOU an IC?

Wake up and stop trying to lead everyone on wild goose chases. Seriously.

@Everyone else: Forgive me, but I'm not sitting by and letting this happen. This is complete bullshit.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 27, 2014, 12:24:26 am

"Emotional details prevented the posting of flavor. Yep!"

---

---

• 1 Superblackcat - MyOwnWorstEnemy
• 0 Sinlessmoon -
• 1 Imp - Persus13
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 2 Nerjin - Imp, Superblackcat
• 2 Not Voting: Sinlessmoon, Nerjin

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 28, 2013 [Tuesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140128T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 2
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There is one possible extension remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

-Concerning Nerjin-

I have to agree as the presiding voice. There is a fine line between reactionary posting, and insulting the person that the reaction is blurred.
If activity is needed -- please request a prod. The weekends, however, are not considered in the time due to them being a rest day for the majority.. Please keep this in mind.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 27, 2014, 12:46:14 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 06:12:46 pm

Extend

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 02:44:00 pm

MOWE: I noticed you haven't voted yet today. thoughts on town, scum, players, anything? What's your plan if we mislynch today and go into Lylo tomorrow?

I have not voted today because I had no idea who to vote for. Two of our players aren't really here, I've always been suspicious of you, and the only reason I haven't been voting SBC is because he fought with makeinu most of the first day. ALTHOUGH I'm staring to suspect that we've all been played. What if SBC and makeinu planned this? Sure one of them would get lynched, but then the other would not be high on our list of suspects. Neither of them really seemed to have a good case against the other. Now, SBC seems to have grown comfortable in his safe spot, asking questions that amount to nothing and attacking an IC that, I will admit, has an odd way of teaching, but has still done his job. He got us playing in the first damn place. As for MYLO, I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so, I'm going to be damn sure of who I'm voting for. If we mislynch again today, I'm not entirely sure how I would proceed. Perhaps rereading everything for the hundredth time and go from there.
Waddya say, Superblackcat?

You can think what you want. But if you look back, if it was planned, it would have to be between mastahcheese and Makeinu. I stopped attacking Makeinu, it was mastahcheese who continued, which caused me to look back, and the re-pressure Makeinu.

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

Well I've been saying for some time that the only reason I'm not voting for SBC is that he spent most of D1 bickering with makeinu. Then it occurred to me that this would be possible. Although I must ask: why did you quote me three times and why haven't you said anything before?

Also, SBC...

Spoiler: Extremely Angry Rant Eminent (click to show/hide)

An IC isn't in the game to win it. They are here to help us out. Sure, I would very much prefer it if Nerjin would just play along with us, but I'm not going to lynch him for it and risk losing the game. Besides, when he was here, he seemed quite town to me. You're just wanting to lynch him because you think he's a shitty IC. That's not a reason! That doesn't mean he's scum! We can't afford this right now! You don't care for his game? Oh well. You don't have to be a jerk to him when he's basically complimenting us. We don't need teaching, so he isn't here. I don't like it very much, but that's just how it is. If I've heard right, he's got a ton of other stuff to be doing instead of babysitting us. In one of the BM's I read through, Nerjin was an IC as well and I know something FOR A FACT: He wouldn't hide behind the title of IC!

HIS ADVICE IS NOT BULLSHIT!!!!! He was the one who encouraged me to start talking. I'm not scared of posting anymore, hence why I'm getting after your ass right now. I'd say we all learned from him pushing us. It seems to me that Nerjin was here mostly in the beginning when he thought we needed him. He's gradually reduced his presence, letting us go about it ourselves. If you're so damn good, why aren't YOU an IC?

Wake up and stop trying to lead everyone on wild goose chases. Seriously.

@Everyone else: Forgive me, but I'm not sitting by and letting this happen. This is complete bullshit.

Look, I've got absolutely nothing to go off of right now. I'm pressuring Nerjin, I'm not hammering him or anything, but frankly, I'd say that I don't always agree with everyone's advice. I'm trying to get you guys to talk. That's the only way we can actually get the activity back going, for people to start pressuring other people. Then Nerjin comes in and tells me the questions I ask are bullshit? So he's allowed to tell me that it's bull shit, while I'm not allowed to?

And if you look at his game. He disappears for a long time, then comes back and tries to appear he's been keeping up, trying not to show that he's lurking. He even specifically said that he believed himself not to be lurking. It's great he got you guys talking, but I expect at least minimal activity from an IC, and he's not giving the activity, as much as he tells us to.

Rereading, every single time he's posted, it seemed like he's being pressured. That sure seems like active lurking, how'd he know we were pressuring him if he was away? I don't think he is psychic.

Why am I not an IC? IDK, I suppose I didn't ask to be one, or maybe my experience is not enough. I'm not sure, but I can tell you that I think I'm playing a lot better game here than Nerjin is playing.

What wild goose chases? I'm seriously attacking Nerjin. As much as I don't think two ICs are Mafia, given the probability, apparently it has happened.

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 26, 2014, 08:05:49 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

Persus: First of all, Nerjin, as an IC, has been one of the most inactive people here, while he keeps bugging us about activity.

Perhaps he's busy, and while he has been inactive, he isn't the only one. He may be a hypocrite, but he is obviously trying to play.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

He is the only voting person of both days, that did not vote Makeinu, and did vote 4mask. His play this game is really crappy, and given how he is IC, he should be better, as well as the fact that He has not heeded any of his own advice...

You know what I like? Evidence. Your evidence of his voting patterns is good, but stating he has consistently failed to follow his own advice is a generalization I can only think of one example of, which is him being inactive. My other problem with this is your failure to look far more deeply into voting. Did you consider the possibility that one of the makeinu votes was a bus? Did you consider that a sly scum would side with the town player who claimed cop in order to get townie points? Did you go back and look to see why Nerjin voted Sinlessmoon and when? Did you see that Mastahcheese, who's been considered essentially confirmed town, voted Sinlessmoon at the exact same time Nerjin did, only Nerjin didn't seem to be around for day end, and Mastahcheese was.

You just ticked of some of my pet peeves. I have a high opinion of scum players, so I rarely go after lurkers. Because good scum know the easiest way to hide from the town is by being in the middle of the hunters, and going after the easy scumlike town to get them killed. So I try not to focus on the easy targets, like lurkers, and on who is hunting them. Like Makeinu. Like you and Imp.

And here's another annoyance I have. Not only are you joining a bandwagon, you only started scumhunting after I pressed you. And I'm sorry, but it felt like scum pretending to hunt scum. You made no effort to increase information. You asked a leading question about Nerjin that made him look like scum and didn't present any evidence against it until pressed.

He isn't the only one, sure Imp and Sinlessmoon are inactive, but I expect him to be active, because he is an IC.

Also, Persus, I projected this to you when you said something along the lines of "All active people are more or less confirmed town."

I think you may be right, and there is a high chance of this, for the reason's you've stated. But within the active people, you are the most scummy. Because, oh shit, you are the only left ;).

Nerjin is playing the push the attention away from himself card, which frankly makes me quite annoyed. That's why I am voting him. Also, the largest IC advice he's given thus far is to "Post, don't be afraid of posting, and be active." Which he is totally not following.

On the other hand, you guys are back and attacking people (me). Which means this is a lot better than Yesterday!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 27, 2014, 12:57:18 pm

Extend.  I for sure need more time.  Sorry everyone, life exploded again.  I have less than an hour to make this post now, whatever I can't get to has to be put off.

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 01:37:01 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Feeling even guiltier about being IC and Scum?  Is it bothering you when you do talk to us, because you are showing us what it looks like when a Scum is "lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy"?

Imp, why are you ripping into Nerjin while citing little evidence besides your pet theory? And why would Scum Nerjin do that? Playing against scum playing for real is the only way to discover them.

Here are my concerns:  Since I joined the game to when I made that 'theory' post, (and really from the start of D2) Nerjin had done very little - until after 4maskwolf made his claim.  Then Nerjin interacted with 4maskwolf, but not others and not answering the questions put to him - though he did 'change his mask-like playstyle', which I'd tried to talk to him about/ask him about.  Nerjin's change might be coincidence - he has since said he didn't remember to actually answer...

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:59:52 pm

As for 'ignoring' questions I kept forgetting to actually answer them.

I interacted most closely with Nerjin in Supernatural 6, where he kind of just crumbled under serious pressure.  I don't want to see a (another) breakdown and I don't want a Nerjin lynch, I want a Scum lynch.  I have suspicions about Nerjin, but I did not want to pressure him 'hard'.  However he had not responded to any of my previous attempts to interact with him (other than maybe to change how he posted).  And those were varied; I started with asking him about his posting style:

Quote from: Imp on January 15, 2014, 06:22:51 am

Is this style something you're still experimenting with and figuring out how to use?  Would you recommend it to others?  How much of it feels like Scumhunting to you, and how much reporting observations and providing feedback?  Or is reporting and feedback a major part of Scumhunting?  Can you suggest how your style could be read to interpret it for intent and alignment?  It really looks like a wall to me this game.

He never touched that question D2, then at the end of the day I asked him:

Quote from: Imp on January 17, 2014, 07:03:08 am

Persus13, Nerjin: please explain your use of shorten in this situation.  Why was getting 4maskwolf lynched as quickly as possible and ending all further chances for information to be gained this day, from anyone more important than ending this day asap to you?


Nerjin, you have a few questions waiting for your attention.  Some are from me, but there's more than just those.  Do you think you'll be answering them anytime soon?

D3 Nerjin did post, but it didn't touch my or others' questions:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 21, 2014, 07:43:54 am

Just a little tip to scum: Lack of active players makes it easier to win. BUT it makes the game boring, bland, and unforgettable. Yeah, lurking your way to victory will make it, y'know, easy but you'll feel much better about your victory if you win against people who are actually doing something.

That being said: Everyone should reread [at the very least skim] Days 1 and 2.

So I had to ask this:

Quote from: Imp on January 21, 2014, 01:12:35 pm

Nerjin, any chance when you reread D1 and D2, that you get around to the D2 questions you completely have ignored all of D2?  Mine but not just mine, and this isn't the first reminder I've made.  When you get around to those questions, I'd also like you to answer this one too:

Why have you been ignoring these questions for so long?  You appear to be completely cherry picking what you do and don't react to, and you are ignoring a lot of the game after 4maskwolf and I entered play.  Why?

and a day later still had not been answered.  Granted, Nerjin could have been going through real life hell and not been able to answer in a day - I'm getting reminded quite pointedly how that can happen.

But this 'not answering' had not been going on for 1 day.  It had been going on since my first question to him, asked back on the 15th of the month - about a full week at the point I'm talking about!  And Nerjin found plenty of time to interact with 4maskwolf, condemning 4mask for his playstyle (Nerjin knows about people crumbling under pressure, knows about it from the inside, I have seen Nerjin do this) and voting shorten.  I am concerned that Nerjin was pleased with a vote on anyone other than himself (especially a possible cop) and especially eager to end conversation that day - and he still was not explaining himself.

I know makeinu was Scum, and was IC.  I don't want to hammer at Nerjin because I've seen him fall apart when he was Scumhunted hard - and he was Town.  I do want, and need, to interact with him.  But he ignored or otherwise failed to respond to all of my previous attempts to interact with him.  My 'theory' came from wondering about how it might affect Nerjin if he were Scum - because he'd know that makinu the other IC was also Scum.  I tried to evaluate the whole of Nerjin's behavior against that theory, and it looked possible.  It is also something very concrete in concept - almost like 4maskwolf's claim in how concrete and specific it is - and if Nerjin is Town, it is hopefully not threatening enough to make him fall apart - but it is an approach to try and interact with him that I have not yet tried (in any game) and I've never seen Nerjin interact so very little before this game.

So it's both a genuine concern and 'stretching out my hand to him', since he wouldn't interact with me to that point when I used more reasonable means, I'll go out on a limb and see if that works to trigger interaction with him.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 22, 2014, 01:37:01 pm

Quote from: Imp on January 22, 2014, 12:27:10 pm

Nerjin, I have a theory.  When the game opened, both our ICs found out they were Scum.  Both our ICs, being really nice people who wanted to help their newbies learn how to play but not wanting to wipe the floor with them, kind of 'panicked', said to each other in Scumchat, 'No way are we doing this to our newbies for real', and both decided to do the IC role right but play 'wrong', act Scummy to help teach the newbies what Scummy looks like.  You decided to do one sort of wrongness, the other IC did a different sort.

The thing about a theory is that it needs evidence to support it. I don't see any evidence for it, and personally I see Nerjin as town.

A theory can also be a tool used to attempt to create interaction.  When my other tools are not working, I am perfectly willing to use things that are not my usual tools.

I don't have time to review right now and find again where you explain why you view Nerjin as Town.  I believe it stems purely from D1 reasons though?  If you can quickly find where you posted those reasons and don't mind offering a link, that is awesome.  If not I'll put finding them on my list of 'things to focus on'.

Oh!  But then I see this:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 22, 2014, 03:05:45 pm

Persus:
What about Nerjin makes you think he's town? He hasn't really played much. Although I'm not sure I buy into Imp's theory, it's certainly possible. I don't think it would be good for any of us if they both went in guns blazing, so this may very well be true. But it's just a theory. Just like my JK theory. Speaking of which...

And I can't find where you answered MOWE's question about it either.  Could you/would you explain again and/or link the old reasons?  I have minutes to finish this post and leave for school.

In fact, I'm out of time.  I'll be picking this post and my thoughts up from this point when I get home from work tonight and I'll get the rest of it made, somehow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 27, 2014, 01:44:27 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 02:08:48 pm

Is this your IC advice? Or your scumhunting techniques?

Cuz whichever one it is, It's really bad.

That's your opinion. While I respect it, I disagree. Also, it was IC advice.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 26, 2014, 03:21:23 pm

I frankly just dislike [Nerjin's] game immensely as well as see him jump in, talk about nothing (Oh wait, he calls these IC advice) participates nada in the game, then be gone for a long time, comes back when there is pressure, almost like he is active lurking, says some of that bullshit IC advice, and leaves.

You are more than welcome to ignore anything and everything I tell you. I won't hold it against you. I trust that your experience in mafia far outweighs mine. Sorry that I can't make you all perfect mafia players via telekenisis or some such, thus I find myself relying on IC advice. But you've shown how that doesn't quite work apparently. Please forgive me for trying and failing.

---

Quote from: Imp's Post

Imp says things

I'll reply to this later, but I do agree to an Extend.

---

If I find myself dead at the end of the day, if I can't post until then, I just want to say that I'm not liking how SBC is talking to me BUT that is his opinion. Don't fault him for that, he has his reasons I'm sure. For now however I must go back to not being here for a few hours due to PFP.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 27, 2014, 01:49:59 pm

"Extraneous variables prevented the posting of flavor. Yep!"

---

---

• 1 Superblackcat - MyOwnWorstEnemy
• 0 Sinlessmoon -
• 1 Imp - Persus13
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 2 Nerjin - Imp, Superblackcat
• 2 Not Voting: Sinlessmoon, Nerjin

Extension, granted

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 30, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140130T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There are no possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

---

Quote from: Nerjin on January 27, 2014, 01:44:27 pm

Extend.

Boop!
Though for personal note, I was worried about the...aggression being shown.

Welp! Flavor. x_x

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 27, 2014, 06:54:28 pm

Alright, so Imp gave me a good answer, so I'm going to unvote her.

I'll try to get another post up later tonight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 27, 2014, 07:44:18 pm

Sorry guys, I lied. Today got really rough after my earlier post. Expect one tomorrow instead.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 28, 2014, 12:59:30 am

Too Tired to post, expect one sometime tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Sinlessmoon on January 28, 2014, 02:25:30 am

Sorry about not posting, I'll try getting around to posting something tomorrow. :)

I mean it this time!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 28, 2014, 05:59:57 am

We've got about 2 days left to end of day.  Mentioning it just to make sure it's clear for anyone wondering/unsure/not keeping track.

I am not ready to commit to voting for anyone right now.  My vote on Nerjin was intended to attempt to get a response I was not sure would come without it.  Nerjin, we need to talk some more, but I am unvoting now.  Please don't feel pressured, stressed, hunted... we're just going to chat, and I'm going to chat with others too.  My mind is not made up about you, I do have some questions for you and I'll answer your questions too; hopefully I can get a chance to reply to your answers by this time tomorrow and if either of us or anyone else needs to comment or ask about anything we say, with luck that'll have a chance to be addressed as well before day ends.

---

---

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:22:11 pm

I'm quite mad at myself, for not dropping the vote yesterday against 4mask, when there was obviously no... other cop claims.

But lets take a look at the people who did vote 4mask.

4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin,  Persus13

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 11:42:46 pm

But you didn't notice the lack of a CC?

Superblackcat, would you explain why you voted for 4maskwolf, and why you voted when you did?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 07:27:53 pm

I'm not voting 4mask unless someone else outs as cop. If you are the real cop, we win instant if you out. Otherwise, I don't see why Nerjin would bother to vote 4mask.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 08:17:21 pm

4mask

Bye.

Those two posts are about 50 minutes apart.  I know what happened in the posts made during that time, but not what was going on in your decisions or why your choice changed so much.  Explain your reasoning?

---

---

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 11:37:55 am

but first allow me to propose an alternate hypothesis: 4mask got mafia and I don't know what he was thinking at all because I got town. Vanilla town to be specific.

This confuses me.  Explain what you mean by "4mask got mafia"?  Can't be a mafia role, we know he was Town.  Can't be an inspection result, he said he got Town from the inspection done on Mastahcheese.  I can't think of any other possible meaning.

Your use of 'lets say' in the rest of that post confuses me, especially where you drop it half way through.  When you say 'lets say', are you "supposing a theory", or are you using obscure language to speak your actual truth and viewpoint?

I want your truth.  I have to ask about your motives or guess.  But you know your motives and reasoning. 

Assuming you're speaking your truth, one thing you talk about in that post really frightens me, as a player.  Maybe as a newbie; I'm too newbie to tell if it's a silly newbie fear or an intelligent and sensible fear - so I'm going to assume that it's a reasonable fear and I'd really like you to explain your viewpoint on this issue:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 11:37:55 am

Now, let's say I'm an IC who prefers teaching people directly and letting them feel things out on their own, stepping in as needed.
...
I think to myself 'I'm not really needed here...

So this has ceased being a BM to me in terms of gameplay and just a very basic game of mafia. I think to myself 'Eh... I'm not really needed. I'll keep an eye out.'
...
I'll try to say stuff where needed but I feel like I'm a redundant factor here. I'm just a player with fancier sig-text.

It really sounds to me like you're viewing yourself essentially as a non-player, and if you are a player, you're 'not really here', 'it's not your game', 'you don't need to say anything as long as the other players are doing fine'.

In fact, saying 'other players' appears to be a misnomer - you're not at all viewing yourself as 'one of us' - your stance appears to be more that of an umpire or a teacher - homework, tests, that stuff's for the kids; teachers are just in the room, ignore me kids, you play your game and keep doing good, I'll correct you when you mess up.

That.  Is.  Forgive me Nerjin, but that is awful, if that's your perspective.  You are one of us.  Be you Town or Scum you are one of the six living players in this game, a game that actually may reach Mylo tomorrow if we cannot figure out who to lynch today.  No matter how much experience any of us has or lacks, no matter how well or poorly each of us is playing - you are in the game and you are a player here.

We need your interaction with us, we need it from day 1; failing that we need it from now on to the end of the game or your death, whichever comes first.  We need you, like we needed Mastahcheese while he lived; like we needed Pufferfish-became-4maskwolf while he lived, like we need Persus and Sinlessmoon now, we need every single one of us and you very much are one of us Nerjin![/i].  And the fewer players we have, the more and more we need every single one that remains.

Of course, if you're Scum, we need you in a different way than we need you if you are Town, but the need is no less.

What is wrong with my reasoning?  Why do you say you are not needed?  Why do you feel you are redundant, especially today when there are only 6 of us able to speak, only 5 with any possible true interest in catching Scum?

I'll agree if you believe we don't need you to lead; I'll agree if you don't believe we need you to explain how to play.  But you are one of us; as a player you are the equal and partner of every one of us, even if you are Scum - you are a living player in this game which cannot be played without communication and interaction!

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 11:37:55 am

come on imp, you're better than this baseless attack.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 02:53:38 pm

I'd say Imp due to her flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon. I don't want to say she's scum though because I honestly think she's better than that.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:50:02 pm

Alright, let's reply to this in full now since I have basically unlimited time. Since you are Imp and are, therefore, a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player I have only this to say: I'm very disappointed in what you're doing here.

Imp is a player who, though almost needlessly verbose, is quite competent despite her relative newness. Thus I'm holding her to a higher standard. This attack and vote [obviously a pressure vote] had absolutely ZERO evidence behind it other than 'This sounds like a plausible situation people might jump at if I phrase it properly.'

A pure attack of opportunity that she probably developed within ten minutes of posting it. It DOES sound like something that might happen. EXCEPT that it would be a GROSS violation of my IC duties. Despite my other shortcomings I follow the spirit of ICing very seriously. I am here to teach. I have done just that.

Let me be totally frank with you Imp your theory is trash as is your reason for voting me. I'm curious about something: Why did you put it forward and vote me on absolutely NO evidence?

You really confused me here.  You flip between praise of me, "a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player" and belittling "come on imp, you're better than this baseless attack."  You describe what I posted as a "flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon" but also as "obviously a pressure vote".

Which do you mean, especially about the 'theory' I posted?  Are 'obvious pressure votes' also 'flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon' and also 'pure attacks of opportunity?'

You make a bunch of statements, some contradictory, about what I said - and you deny the theory; earlier you even posted a counter 'theory' that I don't understand and which I've asked you to explain near the beginning of this post.

Your full reply... at least you say it's your full reply -

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:50:02 pm

Alright, let's reply to this in full now since I have basically unlimited time.

- it also does not actually point out any evidence to the contrary, not even a single 'blatantly obvious' reason why it is clearly untrue, or any subtler reasons which undermine it and suggest it is not likely to be true.  It doesn't have to - I wanted your response to it and to the other, earlier questions, no matter what that response was.  However, I am concerned about this: your response to the challenge is based upon things you say about my character and things you say to describe me, both positively and negatively - and the positive ones are tuned towards attack too, aren't they?  "Imp is a player who, though almost needlessly verbose, is quite competent despite her relative newness. Thus I'm holding her to a higher standard" and "Since you are Imp and are, therefore, a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player I have only this to say: I'm very disappointed in what you're doing here" - ahh, that's use of praise to more broadly aim your response as an attack at me, right?  You are using ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) on purpose?  Been a long time since my one logic class in college, which I think spent a single paragraph on that concept; but that's been brought up in a few other games recently.

So you made a bunch of statements about my 'theory' and about me, and you asked me really only one thing about what I said.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:50:02 pm

I'm curious about something: Why did you put it forward and vote me on absolutely NO evidence?

In short, it's because my previous three attempts to directly communicate with you seemed to have utterly failed, I'd been trying for just over a week at the point I posted that 'theory' to get interaction with you, and you'd found time to interact when you wanted to and even used a shorten instead of interacting with me or anyone besides 4maskwolf after he claimed... apparently my and others' questions meant so little to you at the time that you forgot them, repeatedly?

Quote from: Nerjin on January 23, 2014, 05:59:52 pm

As for 'ignoring' questions I kept forgetting to actually answer them.

I was getting desperate because I don't know your alignment and you really, really really were not talking to me or anyone except for the guy who said 'I'm a cop' - and you basically said 'die, liar!' to him, then went back to IC stuff intermixed with silence.

In long, see this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4957255#msg4957255) post.  Persus13 asks me essentially the same question, I explain my reasons very clearly there, but I'm perfectly happy to explain further or explore my reasoning and concerns with you or anyone who wishes.  Interaction and understanding motivation and reasoning are vital for determining alignment.  At this point Nerjin, I'd be happy to interact with you about just about anything, any tone, any topic; some are more important than others but I desperately need to read your words and understand you better.  Time's getting really tight, both in the Day and in the game.

---

---

---

I'm exhausted guys.  My morning's unlikely to give me much time, maybe none, and Nerjin's not the only person I need to talk with. 

Sinlessmoon  Do you understand what Lylo and Mylo are?  Do you understand what a Town lurker who doesn't vote or really isn't involved in the game means at that stage of the game?  And what a similar Scum lurker means at that point?  I -really- had that driven home to me in the final Day of BM44.  Wow was that rough, intense, and horrid.  And unwinnable for Town.  You understand that, right?  I never want to go through that again.  I'm currently wishing we had voted you out D2, losing your D3 contribution to the game would have cost us nothing at all - especially if you are Scum but hey, look at your posts so far - we'd have lost nothing if you are Town either.  I warn you now, if I am not quite sure who the Scum is by day end, you will have my vote unless that might create a tie.  I am very unwilling to risk walking into Mylo with a player like yourself.  You have 2 days to fix it, and I really hope you do.

I've got more questions to answer and more to ask, but I'm just too tired.  More as soon as I can, probably tomorrow evening :(  Sooner if at all possible.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 28, 2014, 09:13:58 am

Quote from: Imp on January 28, 2014, 05:59:57 am

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 22, 2014, 09:22:11 pm

I'm quite mad at myself, for not dropping the vote yesterday against 4mask, when there was obviously no... other cop claims.

But lets take a look at the people who did vote 4mask.

4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin,  Persus13

Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 23, 2014, 11:42:46 pm

But you didn't notice the lack of a CC?

Superblackcat, would you explain why you voted for 4maskwolf, and why you voted when you did?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 07:27:53 pm

I'm not voting 4mask unless someone else outs as cop. If you are the real cop, we win instant if you out. Otherwise, I don't see why Nerjin would bother to vote 4mask.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 16, 2014, 08:17:21 pm

4mask

Bye.

Those two posts are about 50 minutes apart.  I know what happened in the posts made during that time, but not what was going on in your decisions or why your choice changed so much.  Explain your reasoning?

He kept continually wifom-ing, voting himself, asking everyone to shorten it up and of the such... I didn't like it. That's why I voted him. I'm not sure why I kept my vote on him for so long though. It just... kind of happened, by the time day ended, I realized that I shouldn't be voting him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 28, 2014, 09:50:12 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

Well I've been saying for some time that the only reason I'm not voting for SBC is that he spent most of D1 bickering with makeinu. Then it occurred to me that this would be possible. Although I must ask: why did you quote me three times and why haven't you said anything before?

I quoted you three times because my computer was being slow and your quote wasn't showing up when I hit Insert Quote, so I hit again twice. And then I forgot to check and see how many times your quotes showed up. Also, I've only seriously considered SBC being scum today.

SBC:
I've responded to your question about voting 4maskwolf, and so has MOWE, but I haven't seen your response to why you voted 4maskwolf. PPE: SO why do you not like it when people give up?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 27, 2014, 12:46:14 am

Persus:
He isn't the only one, sure Imp and Sinlessmoon are inactive, but I expect him to be active, because he is an IC.

Also, Persus, I projected this to you when you said something along the lines of "All active people are more or less confirmed town."

Confirmed town? No. Likely town? Absolutely. I focused on the lurkers then, because all of the active players seemed town on an individual basis. Like then, I'm trying to hunt those I find scummy.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 27, 2014, 12:46:14 am

I think you may be right, and there is a high chance of this, for the reason's you've stated. But within the active people, you are the most scummy. Because, oh shit, you are the only left ;).

Evidence please?

Imp: I am currently leaning slight town on Nerjin, as while he's been lurking, it seems that part of that is Real life stuff, and when he's made an effort to play, he has been playing like town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 28, 2014, 12:57:20 pm

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 28, 2014, 09:50:12 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

Well I've been saying for some time that the only reason I'm not voting for SBC is that he spent most of D1 bickering with makeinu. Then it occurred to me that this would be possible. Although I must ask: why did you quote me three times and why haven't you said anything before?

I quoted you three times because my computer was being slow and your quote wasn't showing up when I hit Insert Quote, so I hit again twice. And then I forgot to check and see how many times your quotes showed up. Also, I've only seriously considered SBC being scum today.

Ah. I see. I was just making sure there wasn't some sort of meaning behind it. My computer seems to like doing that as well.

---

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on January 27, 2014, 01:49:59 pm

Boop!
Though for personal note, I was worried about the...aggression being shown.

I can promise you won't see any more aggression from me. In hindsight, I probably should have waited to give my thoughts on SBC's actions. I'd had a... stressful day and that transferred to the post.

---

SBC:
I'm extremely sorry for my outburst and anything I'd said that offended you. It was very childish of me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 29, 2014, 02:28:37 am

Arggh, I should be sorry that I may have offended Nerjin...

Just his tone after being one of the inactive people... made me mad, even though He is the IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 29, 2014, 02:31:49 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 28, 2014, 09:50:12 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 26, 2014, 10:55:24 pm

Well I've been saying for some time that the only reason I'm not voting for SBC is that he spent most of D1 bickering with makeinu. Then it occurred to me that this would be possible. Although I must ask: why did you quote me three times and why haven't you said anything before?

I quoted you three times because my computer was being slow and your quote wasn't showing up when I hit Insert Quote, so I hit again twice. And then I forgot to check and see how many times your quotes showed up. Also, I've only seriously considered SBC being scum today.

SBC:
I've responded to your question about voting 4maskwolf, and so has MOWE, but I haven't seen your response to why you voted 4maskwolf. PPE: SO why do you not like it when people give up?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 27, 2014, 12:46:14 am

Persus:
He isn't the only one, sure Imp and Sinlessmoon are inactive, but I expect him to be active, because he is an IC.

Also, Persus, I projected this to you when you said something along the lines of "All active people are more or less confirmed town."

Confirmed town? No. Likely town? Absolutely. I focused on the lurkers then, because all of the active players seemed town on an individual basis. Like then, I'm trying to hunt those I find scummy.

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 27, 2014, 12:46:14 am

I think you may be right, and there is a high chance of this, for the reason's you've stated. But within the active people, you are the most scummy. Because, oh shit, you are the only left ;).

Evidence please?

Imp: I am currently leaning slight town on Nerjin, as while he's been lurking, it seems that part of that is Real life stuff, and when he's made an effort to play, he has been playing like town.

It's a wifom type thing Persus.

"Mafia wouldn't do that." As we play, we get to know that that isn't the case, but since 4mask is new, I thought he might try to pull something like that. It wasn't any specific thing. It was his continous play of. (Guys I'm cop)... to (Shit this might not work) ... to (I am scummy, but still.) to  (Sorry... I give up, Mafia wouldn't do this right?)

That's what I saw.

And I should've asked everyone to explicitly state that they were not cop. The part that I hate myself was that I can't even say that I thought there was no cop, because I didn't think that ;-;. Probably my shittiest play ;-;.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 29, 2014, 04:08:10 am

I'm dirt tired guys.  I'm going to get as much of this finished as I can, then post and sleep even if it's not done yet.  I'm guessing everyone's exhausted/super busy/in-the-case-of-Sinless-paralyzed-or-something since not much has been said today.  I think I can get one more post in before game ends, but it might be this time tomorrow night , and we're less than 30 hours from game end as is - probably not much more chance for me to interact with people.  But I can sure read and think about any answers people can give and I'll try to be here.

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Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 28, 2014, 09:13:58 am

He kept continually wifom-ing, voting himself, asking everyone to shorten it up and of the such... I didn't like it. That's why I voted him. I'm not sure why I kept my vote on him for so long though. It just... kind of happened, by the time day ended, I realized that I shouldn't be voting him.

More details please.  Are you saying that you used your vote as a way of saying 'I don't like what you are doing', without your vote having anything to do with what you thought his alignment was?  Was there -any- strategy involved in what you were doing, any intentions, hopes, expectations?

Were you aware of how close to day end the game was when you voted for 4mask?

You've mentioned more than once one variant or another of "I shouldn't have voted for him" - explain your reasoning why you shouldn't have voted for him, and why that reasoning didn't stop you from voting for him?

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Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 28, 2014, 09:50:12 am

Imp: I am currently leaning slight town on Nerjin, as while he's been lurking, it seems that part of that is Real life stuff, and when he's made an effort to play, he has been playing like town.

You didn't quote what you're saying that about.  I'm going to guess you're answering my and MOWE's question about why you think Nerjin is Town?

I don't get "he has been playing like town".  My primary evaluation of Nerjin is that he's playing like he doesn't want to actually be a player at all in this game - he's here to teach and coach and early in the game (D1, early D2) keep a scorecard of the quality and strengths and weaknesses of each player's play.  He also said a few things that I don't understand at all, one's his 'counter theory' and another was when he said he would say something about a player's play after that player was dead.  I'm too tired right now to want to sift to find and quote that, but it's made me go 'huh?' more than once - what on earth could Nerjin want to say after the game to someone that he won't say while he's in game with someone?

I know totally that you and he cannot possibly be Scumbuddies, but saying 'He's playing like Town' unfortunately tells me almost nothing, and I can't even guess that you are seeing what I'm seeing and interpreting it similarly because I'm not even seeing that.  It's like a handwave failure to answer the question, if you said this in answer to my question about why you think Nerjin is Town.

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MyOwnWorstEnemy:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 28, 2014, 12:57:20 pm

I can promise you won't see any more aggression from me.

Oi.  I'm not sure that you should write off aggression entirely, to the level you promise there.  Aggression has a place in Scumhunting.  Personal attacks maybe never (and I'm not saying you made them... I actually thought the aggression Tiruin was talking about was Cat's... and to my standards Cat wasn't -that- out of line either... and Cat's learning still.  I've only seen Cat be aggressive once before that I can remember and there's an art to figuring out 'how much is enough' and 'how exactly should I use this tool'.  The only line I think Cat crossed was where he cursed in reference to Nerjin's IC advice, which I think is pretty decent, but I too am bothered that Nerjin says he doesn't see himself as a player here, and I'm bothered by Nerjin's play because he is, yes, a player here.

Just don't want you to box yourself, in this game or any future one, be you Scum or Town.  Properly used, aggression totally has its place.  It's only improper aggression that needs to be shut out.  People make mistakes, and once they do often other people make more mistakes in reaction to it.  Oh well, we all learn, and we all get better.  So don't throw away tools, just handle them with the care and restraint that seems appropriate, yeah?

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Tiruin:  Does anyone need a prod?  I'm thinking there's 2 people haven't posted in the last 24 hours, one of them 24 hours +.  If I fall asleep again as I try to write this can you come prod me awake please?  I don't want to be one of the people who need a prod :(  I sure hope this post will remain coherent.

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Sinlessmoon:  I dunno if I'm going to keep this vote to day end or not.  But gods man, there is no way I'm going to accept being in Lylo with your inactivity and I can't even imagine or believe you're going to act any different or better the next Day then you have.  You haven't voted all game, hardly post anything more than 'I should post more' posts.  Good thing at worst we're in Mylo tomorrow, not Lylo; there's a chance even if you're Town you won't doom us all but you haven't interacted enough for me to classify your alignment at all.

I can see you sitting back and letting us chew at each other and just hiding from the fallout with occasional rare posts of excuses.  That's you with a power role, I know that from Paranormal, but I don't see you being any different as Scum - and I don't see you giving any more information before day end either.

Prove me wrong, please.

Worst case scenario I get so busy I can't connect again before day end; a vote for you doesn't seem to be one I'm likely to regret even if I don't get 20 spare minutes to rub together and spend reading any new posts and making my final judgment on someone who seems more likely Scum than you. 

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Nerjin:

In case you get any time to post, and are not sure if you should or not or whatever is going on for you - have a listen to this song, and imagine the lyrics are saying, instead of "Marvin I love you", that they instead are saying "Nerjin we need you".  Heck, the whole song could use a parody to fit Mafia and Scumhunting better, but it's not too terrible even as is.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ImiqaXBMkM

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Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Imp Could we have a thought of how well you think we played the first two days, since you watched us as a spectator? (So before you joined).

I started to reread through D1 and D2 again because when I read and reread them before I never thought about 'how well are people playing'.  I started that readthrough but I fell asleep twice and it's not going to finish tonight.  When I read the thread as a spectator, before replacing in I was focused on 'keeping up' so I could possibly jump into anyone's spot, but it was Mastahcheese I most focused on being.  I liked his play the most - I didn't want him to replace out but he was 'me'.  My reread with your question in mind made it to page 16.  I got reminded how very little play was done by ElephantParade, Pufferfish, Gembot, and Sinlessmoon during those first pages.  I enjoyed watching makeinu freak out, be inactive for a time, then return calm and apparently happy to be the lynch choice, so very focused at the end on teaching.

What was your reason for asking that question?

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So,

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 28, 2014, 02:25:30 am

Sorry about not posting, I'll try getting around to posting something tomorrow. :)

I mean it this time!

Wait.  Did you just tell us that you didn't mean it the other umpteen times you said you were going to post more?  Are you baiting us?  Are you trolling us?  I'm too tired to explore this further, but I could lose my cool with your attitude really easy.

I'm not talking to you again until I've had more sleep, jerk.  I sure hope you're Scum with that attitude, cause that's like, playing against your team if you're Town.  And the only player I've ever seen be an arse about it was Scum, though granted, he was way, way more rude than you.


PPE:
Cat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 29, 2014, 02:31:49 am

And I should've asked everyone to explicitly state that they were not cop. The part that I hate myself was that I can't even say that I thought there was no cop, because I didn't think that ;-;.

Argh.  Umm, why should you have asked that?  Lets say that everyone said 'no' - even Sinless who doesn't bother to say anything most of the time.  What then?  How what why was that what you should have done and what would that have changed?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 29, 2014, 05:03:18 am

"Work-related variables prevented the posting of flavor. Yep!"

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• 2 Superblackcat - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Persus13
• 1 Sinlessmoon - Imp
• 0 Imp -
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 1 Nerjin - Superblackcat
• 2 Not Voting: Sinlessmoon, Nerjin

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 30, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140130T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]; Approximately 27 hours remaining.

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There are no possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Quote from: Imp on January 29, 2014, 04:08:10 am

Tiruin:  Does anyone need a prod?  I'm thinking there's 2 people haven't posted in the last 24 hours, one of them 24 hours +.  If I fall asleep again as I try to write this can you come prod me awake please?  I don't want to be one of the people who need a prod :(  I sure hope this post will remain coherent.

Not of the moment! Day ends Thursday, and hilariously--Holiday for me on Friday! >__>
And your posts are coherent beyond belief. :3 I love it.
Though-Nerjin-while being under prod probability, is also having RL stuffs shoved down his busy-ness. So he has leeway for it for the time being (though prod was still sent. :p)

Also I don't think people'd intentionally-lurk at this kinda stage in-game, but that's my optimist speaking! My pessimist says the same but says it with a pout.

Edit: But sure! I can always prod you awake. :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Superblackcat on January 29, 2014, 09:15:53 am

Arghh, stated wrong.

Imp. See what I said to Persus. I'm not entirely sure why I stuck with the vote. I certainly believe that I shouldn't of. But it was something in the moement... and 4mask seemed incredibly scummy...

I guess it was the thing with me, I seemed scummy, but it was a town type scummy. I felt like he was trying to town wifom his way out of their. "I'll vote myself, I can't be scum" and other stuff like that. It just struck me as bad. so I voted him. It should not of stayed on him however. I'm not going to even say that I thought there was no cop like Persus, I just wasn't thinking. At all.

Imp, I meant that what do you think of the first two days because you are spectator, and spectators can usually see things from a different angle. Since they aren't immersed in their own role, and instead, see everything.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 29, 2014, 10:16:46 am

IMp: I have responded to 4maskwolf previously and forgot to link.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 06:57:17 pm

When Nerjin's been playing instead of giving IC advice, he's done a decent job playing as town. My only problem with him is that he's lurking a lot, which I think is more attributable to real life stuff than anything else.

Another reason I have for not suspecting Nerjin is partly because I have not found anything scummy about him and have only received town tells. Other players like you, SBC, and Sinlessmoon are either giving me nulls or scum tells, and I'm concerned about that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Silthuri on January 29, 2014, 10:37:16 am

Imp:
MyOwnWorstEnemy:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on January 28, 2014, 12:57:20 pm

I can promise you won't see any more aggression from me.

Oi.  I'm not sure that you should write off aggression entirely, to the level you promise there.  Aggression has a place in Scumhunting.  Personal attacks maybe never (and I'm not saying you made them... I actually thought the aggression Tiruin was talking about was Cat's... and to my standards Cat wasn't -that- out of line either... and Cat's learning still.  I've only seen Cat be aggressive once before that I can remember and there's an art to figuring out 'how much is enough' and 'how exactly should I use this tool'.  The only line I think Cat crossed was where he cursed in reference to Nerjin's IC advice, which I think is pretty decent, but I too am bothered that Nerjin says he doesn't see himself as a player here, and I'm bothered by Nerjin's play because he is, yes, a player here.

Just don't want you to box yourself, in this game or any future one, be you Scum or Town.  Properly used, aggression totally has its place.  It's only improper aggression that needs to be shut out.  People make mistakes, and once they do often other people make more mistakes in reaction to it.  Oh well, we all learn, and we all get better.  So don't throw away tools, just handle them with the care and restraint that seems appropriate, yeah?
[/quote]

I meant mean, unnecessary aggression. I should have been more specific in that I suppose.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 29, 2014, 03:39:41 pm

Fuck... Day's over lads. No posting til our gracious host comes back.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 29, 2014, 03:47:36 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 29, 2014, 03:39:41 pm

Fuck... Day's over lads. No posting til our gracious host comes back.

Did you miss the fact we got an extension? And that Tiruin's last post 10 hours or so ago said we had 27 hours left? Or her countdown timer currently says we have less than 17 hours left until day end?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Nerjin on January 29, 2014, 03:50:16 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 29, 2014, 03:47:36 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on January 29, 2014, 03:39:41 pm

Fuck... Day's over lads. No posting til our gracious host comes back.

Did you miss the fact we got an extension? And that Tiruin's last post 10 hours or so ago said we had 27 hours left? Or her countdown timer currently says we have less than 17 hours left until day end?

Oh... Guess I clicked the wrong timer. My bad. I'll uh... Get back to reading.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Imp on January 30, 2014, 03:23:02 am

Less than 6 hours to end of day.  Sinless hasn't bothered to vote.  Again.... hasn't voted yet all game.  Or post.  The guy has posted 4 times in the last 2 weeks, and it's been 2 weeks since his posts have had any content beyond 'I should post more' or excuses why he can't or can post more.

Nerjin hasn't voted today, has no case to press, isn't interrogating...

Heck, no one but me seems to be interrogating much, mostly the 'Scumhunting' D3 seems to of the 'point fingers and call names' variety.

Superblackcat leads the lynch votes by 1; Nerjin who hasn't voted today has one and Sinlessmoon has one.  I'd rather see either Nerjin or Sinlessmoon lynched than Superblackcat.  I don't think I'm seeing a Scum Cat.  Cat's really not a polished player, he's been really obvious when he has been Scum in the recent past (paranormal), and was really focused on mechanics/not really very willing or able to Scumhunt very well (BM44), and always fast to answer questions even if not with as much detail as I like.

I see improvement in that Scumhunting, a greater willingness to interact, but Cat still needs prodding.  I think Nerjin's attack on Cat, when Cat asked his most round of questions was a pretty questionable choice.

In fact that whole lead up and exchange looks pretty nasty.  I'm not sure if it's Scummy, but it is nasty.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 24, 2014, 10:57:26 pm

And Why has no one posted in the past 24 hours?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 12:01:07 am

I'm here Persus, But there isn't any thing to be said.

Quote from: Persus13 on January 25, 2014, 09:46:32 am

Really? If there isn't anything to be said, then why don't change that. This entire game, I've seen very little scumhunting from you, and instead you've just been sitting passively in a corner and occasionally asking questions. You asked me and Nerjin why we voted 4maskwolf, hen you could go back to D2 and read what we said then yourself. You seem like you are active lurking, and I don't like that. And as a matter of fact, there is something to be said, as you could answer this question I posed to you:

Quote from: Persus13 on January 23, 2014, 10:58:29 pm

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

Quote from: Superblackcat on January 25, 2014, 10:24:17 am

Quote

Now, why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just asking people for their reasons for their actions, and doing NOTHING ELSE?

First of all, That in a way, is part of my scumhunting. Secondly, I don't have a base to jump off of. And I've been busy.

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Sinlessmoon, You here? Who do you think is scum? and Why?

Persus Why aren't you scumhunting?

Nerjin Why did you not vote Makeinu, but vote Sinless? What was the reasoning behind that?

Imp Could we have a thought of how well you think we played the first two days, since you watched us as a spectator? (So before you joined).

MOWE How do you think we should proceed from here?

What I see:  Persus talked about people not talking; Cat said 'Nothing to say, dude'.  Persus said 'You can fix that, and besides, I don't like how you've played this game so far', and Cat said, 'My play is like this, and I haven't had much time.  Oh, but I can try harder right now' and he did so.  Yep, for Cat, those questions are about as good as any I've seen him ask.

I remember asking Cat in BM44 what Scumhunting was, and what Active Lurking was, and getting a bit hammered for asking him those questions so late in the day (it was near the end of D2, and like a month into the game).  I was asking to make sure that Cat knew what the words meant - because he'd done so little Scumhunting and so much Active Lurking as of that point.  I'd already classified Cat as Town by that point, after considering him so Scummy and nearly crusading to see him lynched D1 and telling him he was perma-FOSed because I was still so sure he was Scum.  But as I kept studying him, I realized I was just seeing him, not him as Scum, and that given all the things he did, if he were Scum he wouldn't seem Scummy - he'd be leaping and screaming of Scumminess.  That's more or less what happened in Paranormal.

Cat might fool me one day and it could even be this game, but I really don't feel sure I'm seeing a Scum Cat.  I'm not sure enough to tie the vote, but thanks to Nerjin and Sinless not bothering to vote, that's my choice; I can vote for someone I don't think is probably Scum (I feel less sure that Cat is Town than I did D2, but I think Cat is Town), or I can tie the vote by voting for Nerjin, who I do suspect is Scum... Heck.

Quote from: Nerjin on January 29, 2014, 03:39:41 pm

Fuck... Day's over lads. No posting til our gracious host comes back.

I dunno if that was a genuine mistake or an inobvious way to shorten while Nerjin wasn't the lynch-vote leader for the day.  If we believe the day's over we're not going to change our votes or anything.  I've seen Scum (but not specifically Nerjin; I've never seen a Scum Nerjin) make just that blatant and obvious a lie near day end before... happened D3 of the last Supernatural when I counterclaimed Max White and was done to try and cause a panicked shift in votes off of him.

I wish I'd started talking about the votes on Cat last night, maybe that might have made a difference today.  I was so tired last night I wasn't even tracking who was voting for who.

Or maybe we'll see Scum lynched today.  If that happens, I'm shaking your hand Cat.  Yeah, you look Scummy to me, but you don't look like what I think you look like when you actually are Scum at all and you've learned a lot really fast.

Oh yeah, I was trying to focus on what was going on with Cat's questions and Nerjin's reaction to them.


So what I see, Cat asked questions - and maybe he would have followed up on some or all of them.  He'd just been reminded by Persus about following up, and Cat was making at very least a show of cooperating and trying.  And what happens?

Nerjin jumps into a question from Persus to Cat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4951438#msg4951438), one that happens to be about Cat's case on Nerjin, then Nerjin follows up with a rather direct attack on Cat. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.msg4951440#msg4951440)

Even tells Cat:

Quote from: Nerjin on January 25, 2014, 03:36:12 pm

If you're going to post useless questions please do so on your own time.

...

No, Nerjin does not get away with bullying and shutting down a newbie in a Beginner's Mafia game without that being pointed at.  Not even if that newbie explodes when he is bullied and shut down and dares to state an aggressive opinion (the second I have ever seen Cat make in a game) which includes a hostile judgment about Nerjin's IC advice.

Nerjin's allowed to correct a newbie however he sees fit, but that doesn't mean -everyone- is going to smile and nod about it.  People are going to make mistakes and they need to be corrected, but some people are going to make more than others and when does shutting someone down help them learn to reach out correctly anyway?

I just realized what's ticking me off so much about this.  Nerjin, you're reminding me of Rolepgeek in BM44, how he treated me.  YOu're not that bad to Cat, or me, but that same feel of hostility and being shut down by you is there, that I felt from him.  And from Deathsword.  Now Deathsword wasn't Scum but Rolepgeek was.

Think about this, Mr IC, a statement, challenge, correction - call it what you will from someone deemed 'too green' to be an IC and from someone you have stated you "greatly respect" - if a newbie isn't going to be able to reach out and try to figure out how to play Mafia, Forum Mafia, this style of Mafia, whatever the disconnect is for Cat - if a newbie cannot make their mistakes in a BM, then where in the blue blazes is that newbie supposed to go make their mistakes and learn how to play better?  Since when does teaching someone to play better include shutting them down?

If you are Scum, Nerjin, I'm going to feel like I understand what you're doing a whole lot better.  And just because another newbie (MOWE) can see that Cat was out of line in how he responded to you and didn't notice or react to how you went out of line to shut Cat down in how you corrected him - doesn't mean that you should shut people down.

And I hold you to a higher standard too, Nerjin.  One that includes actually playing.  One that includes using your vote.  One that includes being here for us as well as your other forum games, or at least replacing out so there's a chance that someone else will replace in, someone who will actually play if you won't.

I'm keeping my vote on Sinlessmoon, because to change it to Nerjin, who is my top Scum pick, would tie the vote.  And I'm not sure enough to do that, and I'm pretty sure with our game's end time and no other players being online with just 5 hours to game end and it's the middle of the night that noone else can possibly break that tie.

But if I'm not alive to press Nerjin and get answers from him Tomorrow - and vote him if he won't give them - I hope someone else will.

Keep playing, Cat.  Cat should play more Mafia.  I'm sorry I'm not sure enough to tie the vote and save you.  But if you are Scum, I am so virtually shaking your hand when I see your role flip.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Tiruin on January 30, 2014, 03:32:24 am

"Prods, move out!"

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• 2 Superblackcat - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Persus13
• 1 Sinlessmoon - Imp
• 0 Imp -
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 1 Nerjin - Superblackcat
• 2 Not Voting: Sinlessmoon, Nerjin

Day 3 has begun and will end on January 30, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140130T21&p0=145&msg=Day+3+End&csz=1)]; Approximately 4 hours and 20 minutes remaining.

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There are no possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Eep. Prods.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 3 has begun | Act III: To War
Post by: Persus13 on January 30, 2014, 08:14:54 am

Imp:

Wait, day's over. Shoot.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 3 has begun | Act III: Tranquility
Post by: Tiruin on January 30, 2014, 08:25:53 am

"*Day End sound*"

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• 2 Superblackcat - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Persus13
• 1 Sinlessmoon - Imp
• 0 Imp -
• 0 Persus13 -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 1 Nerjin - Superblackcat
• 2 Not Voting: Sinlessmoon, Nerjin

Night 3 has begun and will end on January 31, 2013 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=145&iso=20140131T21&year=2014&month=1&day=31&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&msg=Night%203%20End&fg1=99dbd4&fg2=a39de0&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day
There are no possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Superblackcat//Elephant Parade has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townsman!

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of a being of Color, you resemble the aspect of vibrance, variance and symbolism deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Color is always related to the meaning given to the environment, giving an interpretation to the different aspects of the tangible world. Your role is simple, utilizing only the mind in your play, but nevertheless important.

A sense of frivolity hits you as you take the stage. Are you going to act, or are you going to wait and observe? As a being of the Physical aspect, you concern yourself with your own survival, yet look onto the rest for a greater victory--you may fall, granted, yet the others alongside you may forward your goals despite their differences. You were advised to keep an open eye, both to your front, and your back, but to never dwell on the voice of absurdity and insanity--for here dwells a horrid judgement.

You are of the Town Faction.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

The game has entered the night phase. No person may post during the night phase and the thread will be locked to ensure such.

Please submit your actions via PM, if any. The Night will end at the time stated or until all probable actions are sent in.

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Quote from: Persus13 on January 30, 2014, 08:14:54 am

Imp:

Wait, day's over. Shoot.

14 minutes and 54 seconds late! :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Tiruin on January 31, 2014, 10:26:11 am

"...Surprise!..I could not deliver flavor due to refurbishing it, though it is finished.."

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• Sinlessmoon -
• Imp -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting: You four.

Day 4 has begun and will end on February 4, 2013 [Tuesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140205T21&p0=145&msg=Day+4+End&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

2 votes needed to extend the day
3 votes needed to shorten the day
There are two possible extensions remaining today. 

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

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Persus13 has been killed! He was a Town Jailkeeper!

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play the role of Purity. Taking the role of the Luminescent, you resemble the notion of discovery, insight, stability, curiosity, value and preservation deep within the weave of society. The role of the dual entity is subjective, having different meanings to different cultures, but always interpreted as a character of sanity (sound judgement), coherence, integrity and solidarity. Your role interprets those around you without bias, and forms the bonds between sentience and non-sentience, giving sight to where sight is needed.

The concept of Purity is subjective within the sentient races, though this is mostly ascribed towards those who have done no moral wrong, or deed--or who have realized their own wrongs and rid themselves of them, through asking forgiveness from the victim. What matters now, is that your motions be fluid, yet precise. Your thoughts should not err, or err as much as the divine.

You are of the Town Faction and have the power to Guard another member in play to prevent them from acting, and being acted upon.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Persus13 on January 31, 2014, 10:30:06 am

Bah.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Silthuri on January 31, 2014, 11:19:19 am

Well we're in quite the situation, eh Imp? We're the last of the active players. What are your thoughts on Persus getting killed?

Sinnlessmoon and Nerjin: GET IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on January 31, 2014, 11:49:22 am

Alrighty so it looks like we're in Mylo. My thoughts on the situation are thus: It's sinlessmoon. Imp's play and MOWE's play have been too good for me to suspect them over Moon who hasn't even played the game at all. It's possible, but highly unlikely. What I'm going to suggest though, is a No Lynch.

If we lynch and miss we lose this match. BUT if we let this day pass us by and then vote tomorrow we have better odds [1/3 vs 1/4] so That's what I'm going to be advocating for this day, and I'd highly suggest you do so as well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Sinlessmoon on February 01, 2014, 03:12:37 am

Baaah! Alright! Lets get back into this!

Quote from: Imp on January 29, 2014, 04:08:10 am

Sinlessmoon:  I dunno if I'm going to keep this vote to day end or not.  But gods man, there is no way I'm going to accept being in Lylo with your inactivity and I can't even imagine or believe you're going to act any different or better the next Day then you have.  You haven't voted all game, hardly post anything more than 'I should post more' posts.  Good thing at worst we're in Mylo tomorrow, not Lylo; there's a chance even if you're Town you won't doom us all but you haven't interacted enough for me to classify your alignment at all.

I can see you sitting back and letting us chew at each other and just hiding from the fallout with occasional rare posts of excuses.  That's you with a power role, I know that from Paranormal, but I don't see you being any different as Scum - and I don't see you giving any more information before day end either.

Prove me wrong, please.

Worst case scenario I get so busy I can't connect again before day end; a vote for you doesn't seem to be one I'm likely to regret even if I don't get 20 spare minutes to rub together and spend reading any new posts and making my final judgment on someone who seems more likely Scum than you. 

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---

Sometimes I'm busy. I did say that I would post but for the a lot of the times I forget, that's what I get for having a shoddy memory. I definitely know I should be posting more and I'm sorry that I'm not because there isn't any excuse for it. Real life comes before forum games for me though.

Quote

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 28, 2014, 02:25:30 am

Sorry about not posting, I'll try getting around to posting something tomorrow. :)

I mean it this time!

Wait.  Did you just tell us that you didn't mean it the other umpteen times you said you were going to post more?  Are you baiting us?  Are you trolling us?  I'm too tired to explore this further, but I could lose my cool with your attitude really easy.

I'm not talking to you again until I've had more sleep, jerk.  I sure hope you're Scum with that attitude, cause that's like, playing against your team if you're Town.  And the only player I've ever seen be an arse about it was Scum, though granted, he was way, way more rude than you.

Not trolling, or baiting. Just haven't been on the Bay12 forums in awhile. Definitely less than I wanted. I apologize to everyone that's had a problem with me for being away so much.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Imp on February 01, 2014, 07:29:43 am

I'm exhausted and must sleep.  I struggled through making a post for Diadem; that game's got a King that ain't me and day could end at a any moment, this one I know I've got at least the weekend.  Back tomorrow after work.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on February 01, 2014, 02:58:42 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on February 01, 2014, 03:12:37 am

Baaah! Alright! Lets get back into this!

Quote from: Imp on January 29, 2014, 04:08:10 am

Sinlessmoon:  I dunno if I'm going to keep this vote to day end or not.  But gods man, there is no way I'm going to accept being in Lylo with your inactivity and I can't even imagine or believe you're going to act any different or better the next Day then you have.  You haven't voted all game, hardly post anything more than 'I should post more' posts.  Good thing at worst we're in Mylo tomorrow, not Lylo; there's a chance even if you're Town you won't doom us all but you haven't interacted enough for me to classify your alignment at all.

I can see you sitting back and letting us chew at each other and just hiding from the fallout with occasional rare posts of excuses.  That's you with a power role, I know that from Paranormal, but I don't see you being any different as Scum - and I don't see you giving any more information before day end either.

Prove me wrong, please.

Worst case scenario I get so busy I can't connect again before day end; a vote for you doesn't seem to be one I'm likely to regret even if I don't get 20 spare minutes to rub together and spend reading any new posts and making my final judgment on someone who seems more likely Scum than you. 

---

---

Sometimes I'm busy. I did say that I would post but for the a lot of the times I forget, that's what I get for having a shoddy memory. I definitely know I should be posting more and I'm sorry that I'm not because there isn't any excuse for it. Real life comes before forum games for me though.

Quote

Sinlessmoon:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on January 28, 2014, 02:25:30 am

Sorry about not posting, I'll try getting around to posting something tomorrow. :)

I mean it this time!

Wait.  Did you just tell us that you didn't mean it the other umpteen times you said you were going to post more?  Are you baiting us?  Are you trolling us?  I'm too tired to explore this further, but I could lose my cool with your attitude really easy.

I'm not talking to you again until I've had more sleep, jerk.  I sure hope you're Scum with that attitude, cause that's like, playing against your team if you're Town.  And the only player I've ever seen be an arse about it was Scum, though granted, he was way, way more rude than you.

Not trolling, or baiting. Just haven't been on the Bay12 forums in awhile. Definitely less than I wanted. I apologize to everyone that's had a problem with me for being away so much.

That's nice... and this added... What exactly? You basically just said "I'm sorry I haven't been on guys." again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Sinlessmoon on February 01, 2014, 03:43:28 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on February 01, 2014, 02:58:42 pm

That's nice... and this added... What exactly? You basically just said "I'm sorry I haven't been on guys." again.

Not much I have to admit, but I can't exactly add too much when I'm in a rush to go somewhere.


Alright, Imp:

I'm getting quite a scummy vibe off of you, personally I don't trust you. I know I haven't exactly been the best of players but, that doesn't mean you should go off and assume I'm scum. The reason I'm voting you is that you seem to really want me and Nerjin gone, is that because you want a quick and easy lynch so you can pick someone off during the night? I don't know enough about Mafia to make a conclusive decision but this is what my gut feeling tells me.

MoWE:
What do you think of the other players? What are your thoughts on them?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on February 01, 2014, 03:51:25 pm

No! No! Did you not listen to me!? MOWE? Moon? Imp? No-Lynch is the best possible option here! It lowers town's chances of fucking this all up to hell!

Look at it mathmatically! Right now town has a 1/4 chance of hitting scum. If we miss we LOSE!

BUT if we no-lynch, mafia'll kill someone and then it'll be a 1/3 chance of hitting scum! We can improve our odds if we just no-lynch today! Get your god damn votes off of Imp and No-lynch!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Superblackcat on February 01, 2014, 06:15:46 pm

Bah... (psssst Nerjin is IC)... Bah.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Silthuri on February 01, 2014, 08:11:48 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on February 01, 2014, 03:51:25 pm

No! No! Did you not listen to me!? MOWE? Moon? Imp? No-Lynch is the best possible option here! It lowers town's chances of fucking this all up to hell!

Look at it mathmatically! Right now town has a 1/4 chance of hitting scum. If we miss we LOSE!

BUT if we no-lynch, mafia'll kill someone and then it'll be a 1/3 chance of hitting scum! We can improve our odds if we just no-lynch today! Get your god damn votes off of Imp and No-lynch!

Gods above, Nerjin. Take a chill pill. Unvote. Happy? I see the wisdom in your words, but I'm hesitant to go no-lynch. Has this tactic worked for you in the past?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on February 01, 2014, 08:19:57 pm

I've never been in a 4 person end game before I'll admit. But I want us to have every advantage at winning this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Tiruin on February 02, 2014, 07:04:56 am

"...Surprise again! You...really noticed that but didn't tell me, huh.

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• 0 Sinlessmoon -
• 1 Imp - Sinlessmoon
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 0 Nerjin -
• 1 No Lynch - Nerjin
• Not Voting: Imp, MyOwnWorstEnemy

Day 4 has begun and will end on Februarr-rRAARRR^ryYyy
Syntax Error
Clearing...
Reloading...
Day 4 has begun and will end when >50% Players vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.  Votes to end the day may, at the voter's option, be contingent on the lynching of the player being voted on, and will be considered null should a different player gain the majority vote.

A No Lynch is also a vote option.

Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

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Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Silthuri on February 02, 2014, 10:07:34 am

Sinless

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on February 01, 2014, 03:43:28 pm

MoWE:
What do you think of the other players? What are your thoughts on them?

Well I haven't done my reads in a while, so I believe this is a bit overdue anyway.

Nerjin: I'm a bit suspicions of him wanting a no-lynch so badly. As I've said, I see the logic behind what he says, but I don't like the idea of giving the scum a free kill. I still think he's town, but my suspicions are growing.

Imp: I think she's the scummiest of the active players. She spent virtually all of yesterday going after Nerjin... someone who couldn't/wouldn't defend himself. Now, she's going after Sinless just because they're a lurker. I don't think that's a good course of action. We lynch the wrong person, we're done.

Sinless: As Imp has said, you've never voted and have just basically apologized most of the game. Are you finally going to act different today? Because you're just hindering town's progress at this point.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Sinlessmoon on February 02, 2014, 12:28:50 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on February 02, 2014, 10:07:34 am

Sinless: As Imp has said, you've never voted and have just basically apologized most of the game. Are you finally going to act different today? Because you're just hindering town's progress at this point.

I sure hope so, because I've been really wanting to get into this, life just unfortunately comes in the way.  :-\

Also, because what Nerjin said is true.

No-lynch

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on February 02, 2014, 06:25:38 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on February 02, 2014, 10:07:34 am

Nerjin: I'm a bit suspicions of him wanting a no-lynch so badly. As I've said, I see the logic behind what he says, but I don't like the idea of giving the scum a free kill. I still think he's town, but my suspicions are growing.

You would prefer to give them the win?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Tiruin on February 02, 2014, 06:29:16 pm

Nerjiiiin, look if you've touched the 'post reply' instead of the 'post new thread/topic' thing. :p
I doubt there's no 'Start new topic' in the top left of the reply-box-bar.

Aaaaand thanks Meph :D

[Meph - Merged back in.]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Silthuri on February 03, 2014, 12:44:51 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on February 02, 2014, 12:28:50 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on February 02, 2014, 10:07:34 am

Sinless: As Imp has said, you've never voted and have just basically apologized most of the game. Are you finally going to act different today? Because you're just hindering town's progress at this point.

I sure hope so, because I've been really wanting to get into this, life just unfortunately comes in the way.  :-\

Also, because what Nerjin said is true.

No-lynch

Sorry... I didn't mean to be harsh. I hope things are getting better for you. Life's been pretty turbulent for me as well. College starting and being in two mafia games at once... Its hard to find time to do things.

No-Lynch. I hope this works, Nerjin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Nerjin on February 03, 2014, 01:35:36 pm

It can't hinder Town and can only Help.

That being said: Shorten but only if the final vote is for no-lynching.

I can do that right?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Silthuri on February 04, 2014, 09:11:38 am

Shorten.

I would ask that we use this day to speak about what happened yesterday, but I suppose we could do that tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 4 has begun | Act IV: Rebirth
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2014, 09:20:44 am

3 hours until the 24-hour no-shift is enacted. :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 4 has begun | Act IV: Fortuity
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2014, 07:15:15 pm

"...Surprise again! You...really noticed that but didn't tell me, huh.

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• 0 Sinlessmoon -
• 0 Imp -
• 0 MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• 0 Nerjin -
• 3 No Lynch - Nerjin, MyOwnWorstEnemy, Sinlessmoon
• Not Voting: Imp

Night 4 has begun and will end on February 6, 2014 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140207T21&p0=145&fg1=99dbd4&fg2=a39de0&msg=Night+4+End&csz=1)]

Shorten requests: 2

3 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

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Nobody has been lynched! It was a Majority Decision!

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play one of the roles of the Ambivalence. Taking the role of a being of Presence, you resemble the aspect of relativity, speculation and being deep within the weave of society. The role of the obtuse void is always related to the meaning given to the environment, giving an interpretation to the different aspects of the tangible world. Your role is complex, with many varying deviations in its concept.

You sit in your chair, sipping a cup of tea. A clock echoes in the distance. You look and see Nobody there. It is time to sleep.

You are of the Suspicion Faction.

Wincondition: You win when everyone loses.

The game has entered the night phase. No person may post during the night phase and the thread will be locked to ensure such.

Please submit your actions via PM, if any. The Night will end at the time stated or until all probable actions are sent in.

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I'm late. >__<

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Night 4 has begun | Act IV: Fortuity
Post by: Tiruin on February 05, 2014, 09:40:38 am

Due to mod error and time dislocation...the night has been reduced to February 6, 2014 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8] despite said mod being busy.
I can't follow my own rules sometimes when I realized I overshot a whole day.
Prior to that, I thought yesterday was Wednesday.

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 06, 2014, 08:30:37 am

"Flavor is, actually, fully finished. I don't have the guts to post it though."

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• Imp -
• MyOwnWorstEnemy -
• Nerjin -
• Not Voting: You three.

Day 5 has begun and will end when >50% Players vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.  Votes to end the day may, at the voter's option, be contingent on the lynching of the player being voted on, and will be considered null should a different player gain the majority vote.

Shorten requests: 0

2 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for zombie urist's LurkerTracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126856.msg4296424#msg4296424)!

---

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Sinlessmoon has been killed! He was a Vanilla Townsman.

Quote

The Court has set the stage, and you play one of the roles of the Light. Taking the role of a being of Color, you resemble the aspect of vibrance, variance and symbolism deep within the weave of society. The role of the simple Color is always related to the meaning given to the environment, giving an interpretation to the different aspects of the tangible world. Your role is simple, utilizing only the mind in your play, but nevertheless important.

A Crimson flame blooms within you, and you feel the Arts resonate with your being as you take the stage. The persona of Fire will be but one primary element to the Court, and has been of symbolic value ever since the dawn of sentience.

You are of the Town Faction.

Wincondition: You win when all members of the Mafia faction have been eliminated.

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Yeah I've a thing with my own writing. x_x

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Silthuri on February 06, 2014, 09:07:31 am

Imp. You. Please explain to me why you've only been attacking the lurkers, people who can't fight back, and what about the other players made you believe they were town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 06, 2014, 09:55:42 am

Heh, that's cute. Nobody wins when everybody loses.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 06, 2014, 11:30:47 am

Just saying Tiruin that the whole point of this was to help improve your flavor right? Why not post it? We're not going to boo or hiss at you, promise. We want to help, but we can't do that if you're not posting it. Come on, kiddo, let us help you.

---

Alas, it has come to this. Imp or MOWE... Imp or MOWE... Well considering that MOWE has been here, has been pretty active, and has acted almost entirely like a townie (in my eyes) I'm going to go with Imp. Sorry Imp, but I'm CERTAIN it's you. You've not been here all that much and other than me are the lurkiest player left alive. You really should have considered killing me or MOWE instead because I was certain it was Sinless.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 08, 2014, 12:56:02 am

Y'know I technically WOULD end the day due to the 'no vote shift 24 hour' rule but then it's the weekends. :)

Enjoy your weekends!

Quote from: Nerjin on February 06, 2014, 11:30:47 am

Just saying Tiruin that the whole point of this was to help improve your flavor right? Why not post it? We're not going to boo or hiss at you, promise. We want to help, but we can't do that if you're not posting it. Come on, kiddo, let us help you.

I..I have a thing with this...It's hard to...explain. Yeah.  :-\

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 08, 2014, 09:02:24 am

It's cool mate. You do what you're comfortable with. We'll support you either way.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 09, 2014, 08:18:00 pm

On that note: I'll be ending the day ~11 hours, 40 minutes from now if either Imp doesn't post with her vote or anyone else changes their vote due to it being Monday.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 10, 2014, 10:24:41 pm

Turning towards the trembling Imp Nerjin grimaces. "It must have been you. There's no other possibility!"

For her part Imp looked rightfully scared "No! No it wasn't me! I can prove it! It was MOWE! I swear!"

MOWE seemed shock by the accusation "Liar! I was on the fence but... You're right Nerjin! It must have been her!"

Imp, now knowing she was outnumbered began to back away "No! No! Stay back! I mean it!" She said pulling a small dagger.

"Face it Imp. There's only two ways this can end. And in both of them... you die." Nerjin drew his own dagger, as did MOWE.

"No! Not like this!" Imp shouted as the stage faded to black. "No like- AGH!"

There were several moments of silence before the voice of the narrator appeared.

"And so came to pass the victory of Town. With Imp eradicated there was harmony yet again within the world. The scourge of darkness dealt with for the next one hundred years."

Once again silence reigned but was inturrupted by the sound of clapping. Loud clapping. Easily one thousand pairs of hands coming together to show appreciation for the story told.

The stage brightened up revealing each of the actors. Each took a bow as they were introduced. Even Imp and Makeinu were smiling broadly. Proud of the delight they had brought to the patrons.

Tiruin, the director and writer of the play, came upon the stage to address the audience "Thank you all! Thank you! I just want to say that I did what I could. This was my vision. I'm proud of each of the actors for bringing it to fruition! Once again, thanks to each of the performers. But most of all: Thank you, the audience for making this a spectacle to behold. Without you, none of this would be possible."

So saying the cast took their final bow to the bittersweet delight of all the patrons. The play had been phenomenal and they were glad to see the conclusion though they wished it had gone on just a little longer. Thus ended: The Court of Colors!

---

[[The Relevant information to ending the game]]

---

I decided to write out some stuff because... Why not? This, of course, assumes me and MOWE are town and correctly lynch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Persus13 on February 10, 2014, 10:33:07 pm

Tiruin?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: mastahcheese on February 10, 2014, 11:00:43 pm

(I may be dead, but that was awesome.)

Quote from: Nerjin on February 10, 2014, 10:24:41 pm

"There's only two ways this can end. And in both of them... you die."

(Is this a Duke Nukem reference?)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 10, 2014, 11:03:15 pm

Yes, yes it was.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Persus13 on February 13, 2014, 11:44:58 pm

So Tiruin hasn't been active since the 10th of February.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 14, 2014, 11:41:55 am

Should I finish this if Tiruin doesn't appear by monday? Imp would be lynched with a single vote if the day were to end right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Persus13 on February 14, 2014, 11:59:35 am

Quote from: Deathsword on February 14, 2014, 11:41:55 am

Should I finish this if Tiruin doesn't appear by monday? Imp would be lynched with a single vote if the day were to end right now.

I would be okay with that. And the day was supposed to end several days ago. But I hope TIruin will be able to appear before then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2014, 05:34:20 pm

...WELL. That was the worst spell of everythingbadhappening in my life.

Will get day end results up soon-ish! By Wednesday, at most!

I got figuratively hit by a truck, so to speak. Oh, and my net hated me. And then coursework. And then family stuffs. And then angst. And then notes on my preferences and hobbies. And then-
*list goes on forever*

Tiny tip: Start celebrating, Nerjin and co.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Persus13 on February 16, 2014, 07:50:13 pm

Glad to hear you're back, Tiruin, and I hope your okay.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 16, 2014, 08:12:31 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on February 16, 2014, 05:34:20 pm

Tiny tip: Start celebrating, Nerjin and co.

Haha! Mafia wins! Take that MOWE! You should never have trusted me! Bwhahahahahaha! Lurked to victory! Like a boss!

Glad to see you back Tiruin, I hope everything is okay.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Silthuri on February 16, 2014, 09:18:46 pm

You... you devious son of a...

Damn. And I was doing so horribly well, too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 16, 2014, 09:29:48 pm

Nerjin is an evil kitty cat and I will ensure he will get what he deserves :I

And that means I'm really sifting through my USBs since stuffs have gone back in order lately. Apologies for lateness! D:

[PS: It's post-game right now, just that I haven't released the everything. No, Deathsword-don't tell. :I]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: mastahcheese on February 16, 2014, 11:59:28 pm

Man, once Tiruin posts that actual end of the game, I'm going to be so mad at all of you.
Well, technically, I'm already mad, I just have to wait before I can tell you all why.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 17, 2014, 06:00:07 am

Quote from: Tiruin on February 16, 2014, 09:29:48 pm

[PS: It's post-game right now, just that I haven't released the everything. No, Deathsword-don't tell. :I]

There is a 33,33% chance that mafia won.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2014, 02:59:39 pm

Guess Tiruin is having real life trouble again. I'll wrap this up later today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2014, 07:47:30 pm

From the depths of 504 hell a post emerges...

Turning towards the trembling Imp Nerjin grimaces. "It must have been you. There's no other possibility!"

For her part Imp looked rightfully scared "No! No it wasn't me! I can prove it! It was MOWE! I swear!"

MOWE seemed shock by the accusation "Liar! I was on the fence but... You're right Nerjin! It must have been her!"

Imp, now knowing she was outnumbered began to back away "No! No! Stay back! I mean it!" She said pulling a small dagger.

"Face it Imp. There's only two ways this can end. And in both of them... you die." Nerjin drew his own dagger, as did MOWE.

"No! Not like this!" Imp shouted as the stage faded to black. "No like- AGH!"

There were several moments of silence before the voice of the narrator appeared.

"And so came to pass the victory of Town. With Imp eradicated there was harmony yet again within the world. The scourge of darkness dealt with for the next one hundred years."

Once again silence reigned but was inturrupted by the sound of clapping. Loud clapping. Easily one thousand pairs of hands coming together to show appreciation for the story told.

The stage brightened up revealing each of the actors. Each took a bow as they were introduced. Even Imp and Makeinu were smiling broadly. Proud of the delight they had brought to the patrons.

Tiruin, the director and writer of the play, came upon the stage to address the audience "Thank you all! Thank you! I just want to say that I did what I could. This was my vision. I'm proud of each of the actors for bringing it to fruition! Once again, thanks to each of the performers. But most of all: Thank you, the audience for making this a spectacle to behold. Without you, none of this would be possible."

So saying the cast took their final bow to the bittersweet delight of all the patrons. The play had been phenomenal and they were glad to see the conclusion though they wished it had gone on just a little longer. Thus ended: The Court of Colors!


Imp has been lynched. Imp was the Mafia Role-Cop.

Town Wins!

End game flavour text 100% original. Yep.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: TheDarkStar on February 23, 2014, 08:18:57 pm

*claps a lot*

I didn't see much of this one, but what I saw was interesting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Persus13 on February 23, 2014, 08:23:18 pm

Nice job MOWE. For your first Mafia game, you did well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 23, 2014, 08:49:48 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on February 23, 2014, 02:59:39 pm

Guess Tiruin is having real life trouble again. I'll wrap this up later today.

Coincidence, huh. x__x

I'll get up the everything by later. Tomorrow. Hopefully.

^Sorry.

Yes, MOWE is Town, Nerjin is Town. Imp is scum and I really hope she's doing OK IRL.
^{And I'll..just not post the flavor. I can't write.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 23, 2014, 09:30:58 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on February 23, 2014, 08:49:48 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on February 23, 2014, 02:59:39 pm

Guess Tiruin is having real life trouble again. I'll wrap this up later today.

Coincidence, huh. x__x

I'll get up the everything by later. Tomorrow. Hopefully.

^Sorry.

Yes, MOWE is Town, Nerjin is Town. Imp is scum and I really hope she's doing OK IRL.
^{And I'll..just not post the flavor. I can't write.}

You can write just fine Tiruin.  I really enjoyed the flavor you posted, and I wish there could have been more of it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 23, 2014, 09:36:04 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on February 23, 2014, 08:49:48 pm

^{And I'll..just not post the flavor. I can't write.}

I believe Ed Woods said something to the effect of "No matter what just keep writing. The story may get worse, but you'll get better."

I can't prove if he did or not BUT I believe it may be helpful to keep in mind. You need to show your work to get better as well. We'll help you find out what works and what doesn't.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Silthuri on February 23, 2014, 10:15:57 pm

We... we won? Wow... was not expecting that.

Nerjin, you're an ass.

---

Quote from: Persus13 on February 23, 2014, 08:23:18 pm

Nice job MOWE. For your first Mafia game, you did well.

I messed up a lot though. Like basically bandwagoning on makeinu D1, chasing stupid theories that turn out to be incorrect, and focusing on someone just because I got pissed at them (still sorry about that, SBC!!). Although I suppose for my absolute first game, I didn't do too bad. I did survive at least.

---

Quote from: Tiruin on February 23, 2014, 08:49:48 pm

^{And I'll..just not post the flavor. I can't write.}

Who in the world said you couldn't write? I loved what little flavor you gave us.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: mastahcheese on February 23, 2014, 10:50:21 pm

SO, does anyone want to go back to what I said right before I was killed? Huh, anyone? Want to go and check that out, now?

Also, Tiruin, you write beautifully.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 23, 2014, 11:01:08 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on February 23, 2014, 10:50:21 pm

SO, does anyone want to go back to what I said right before I was killed? Huh, anyone? Want to go and check that out, now?

Also, Tiruin, you write beautifully.

I'm too lazy to, could you link it?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 2 has begun | Act II: Unraveling
Post by: mastahcheese on February 23, 2014, 11:20:28 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on January 16, 2014, 09:16:28 pm

EXTEND.

God dang it, wolf, get that vote off of yourself. You're being just plain stupid right now. And I'm not saying this to be mean, but the way you're getting yourself killed is only going to waste one of our days, and give the remaining scum an actual Night Kill.
Get ahold of yourself.

Imp, you seemed really freaking eager to jump on that. I'm glad. Everyone else is saying it's "fishy" and questioning it.
But not you.
You were sure the moment he said it that he must have been scum.
His move reeks of being the perfect target. And I see your attack on it as being the scummiest by far. Anyone would lynch a claim like that. Absolutely anyone. You wouldn't even need to make a case on it because everyone already knows. And the fact that you've labeled him as the most likely scum, without even pointing your own lynching finger to him, proves to me that you honestly felt so secure in this that you didn't even have to pull the trigger yourself.

Oh, this is offtopic, but thanks for, when I said it was hard to read what you post because you're too long-winded, you respond by making it longer. Thank you for listening.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on January 16, 2014, 07:05:50 pm

Mastahcheese:  What is your verdict?  Back to lynching me, or decided that I'm telling the truth?

I'm really glad you claimed, I am. I was really looking forward to see who would press the hardest to kill you. And now I know. Thank you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Tiruin on February 24, 2014, 01:27:21 am

I've...a free day tomorrow. If everyone's ok with me posting the...flavor, then that'd be fine.
^{...sorry for my incompetence.}
As for actions...

Spoiler: Seperus Straven//Persus13 --- Town Jailkeeper (click to show/hide)

N1: Guard Nerjin
N2: Guard Nerjin
N3: Guard Sinlessmoon; 'Dies'

Spoiler: 4-Masked Man//4maskwolf//Pufferfish -- Town Cop (click to show/hide)

N1: Inspect Mastahcheese (this was a pre-sent action before twilight/day end if in case Pufferfish did not appear)
N2: 'Dies' at the lynch

Spoiler: Dancers of the Void and Spirit// Imp/Jembot; makeinu (click to show/hide)

N1: With makeinu dead, Jembot...did not act.
N2: Imp kills mastahcheese
N3: Imp kills Persus
N4: Imp kills Sinlessmoon

Scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tS5QUetjpQyi)
Deadchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/QsrBUmdE6ypTy)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 24, 2014, 01:30:58 am

Quote from: Tiruin on February 24, 2014, 01:27:21 am

I've...a free day tomorrow. If everyone's ok with me posting the...flavor, then that'd be fine.
^{...sorry for my incompetence.}
As for actions...

Spoiler: Seperus Straven//Persus13 --- Town Jailkeeper (click to show/hide)

N1: Guard Nerjin
N2: Guard Nerjin
N3: Guard Sinlessmoon; 'Dies'

Spoiler: 4-Masked Man//4maskwolf//Pufferfish -- Town Cop (click to show/hide)

N1: Inspect Mastahcheese (this was a pre-sent action before twilight/day end if in case Pufferfish did not appear)
N2: 'Dies' at the lynch

Spoiler: Dancers of the Void and Spirit// Imp/Jembot; makeinu (click to show/hide)

N1: With makeinu dead, Jembot...did not act.
N2: Imp kills mastahcheese
N3: Imp kills Persus
N4: Imp kills Sinlessmoon

Scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tS5QUetjpQyi)
Deadchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/QsrBUmdE6ypTy)

The only incompetence on this forum was displayed by Jembot, and that was because he wasn't t here and didn't nk anyone. There was no incompetence from you.
*hugs Tiruin through the internet* don't be so hard on yourself, you were a great mod.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors | Renascence | Town Win
Post by: Sinlessmoon on February 24, 2014, 02:12:17 am

Yeah Tiruin, even though I have been inactive most of the game. (Still lots of apologies. D: ) You write flavor really well. Don't be embarrassed to upload more, because I will gladly read it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors | Renascence | Town Win
Post by: Persus13 on February 24, 2014, 07:35:08 am

Now you guys see why I was attacking everyone who was ganging up on Nerjin. Because I knew he wasn't scum. What I should have done was claim that day say I was going to block sinlessmoon, and proceed from there.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2014, 09:39:25 am

Quote from: Tiruin on February 24, 2014, 01:27:21 am

I've...a free day tomorrow. If everyone's ok with me posting the...flavor, then that'd be fine.
^{...sorry for my incompetence.}

Tiruin, you write some of the best flavour text for mafia games I've seen to date. There is no incompetence.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: mastahcheese on February 24, 2014, 02:37:00 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on February 24, 2014, 09:39:25 am

Quote from: Tiruin on February 24, 2014, 01:27:21 am

I've...a free day tomorrow. If everyone's ok with me posting the...flavor, then that'd be fine.
^{...sorry for my incompetence.}

Tiruin, you write some of the best flavour text for mafia games I've seen to date. There is no incompetence.

^ THIS TIMES OVER NINE THOUSAND

Tiruin, please stop doubting yourself. You have amazing wordsmanship. Or eloquence, or literacy or whatever the word is. You probably know what word I'm trying to say because of how good your writing is.

Nerjin: I'd like to see your post game analysis of the players, and the game as a whole.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Nerjin on February 24, 2014, 05:53:58 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on February 24, 2014, 01:27:21 am

I've...a free day tomorrow. If everyone's ok with me posting the...flavor, then that'd be fine.
^{...sorry for my incompetence.}

As others have said: No incompetance have I detected from you. Ever. But yeah, I'd like to see the flavor as well.

---

As for my reads on players? I'll point out those who stand out to me:

MastahCheese: Did VERY well for his first game.
Mowe: Did very well for her first game. Plus she has nice hair.
Sinless: Really should have shown up from time to time.
Imp: Can only think of how she was unlucky enough to hit Sinless. Honestly hitting me or MOWE would have won the game.

Other than that everyone did fine. Nothing stands out to me as utterly important at the moment. BUT I'm gonna read Scum/Dead chat and get back to you guys on that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2014, 06:28:51 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on February 24, 2014, 05:53:58 pm

Imp: Can only think of how she was unlucky enough to hit Sinless. Honestly hitting me or MOWE would have won the game.

On this: In the scumchat, I told her to go after Sinless... but I said and meant it during the day. Problem is, she only appeared with night came around, so she took it to mean that she should NK Sinless. I only noticed too late. I was actually going to tell her to go after you, Nerjin, for the NK, but PC stuff happened.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: Silthuri on February 24, 2014, 09:03:29 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on February 24, 2014, 05:53:58 pm

Mowe: Did very well for her first game. Plus she has nice hair.

But... but you're always complaining about my hair...

---

To be entirely honest, I thought Persus were the cop up until wolf claimed. When I was accusing him of active-lurking, I stopped because of this. I was going to say I thought he were either scum or the cop, but just before posting decided it would draw attention to him and/or make me look like scum. And I'm surprised no one hounded me about makeinu. I knew from the moment he flipped scum that it looked like I bussed him. I'm really surprised I survived that.

---

Tiruin: You, my friend, have no reason to feel incompetent or hate your writing. As a very picky, overly critical reader, trust me when I say you're a damn good writer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 24, 2014, 09:06:57 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on February 24, 2014, 09:03:29 pm

Tiruin: You, my friend, have no reason to feel incompetent or hate your writing. As a very picky, overly critical reader, trust me when I say you're a damn good writer.

This +10000000000.

You should seriously start a thread on this forum about writing mafia flavor, along with Vector.  Teach an online class or something.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: Day 5 has begun | Act V: Illumination
Post by: mastahcheese on February 25, 2014, 12:09:06 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on February 24, 2014, 09:03:29 pm

To be entirely honest, I thought Persus were the cop up until wolf claimed. When I was accusing him of active-lurking, I stopped because of this. I was going to say I thought he were either scum or the cop, but just before posting decided it would draw attention to him and/or make me look like scum. And I'm surprised no one hounded me about makeinu. I knew from the moment he flipped scum that it looked like I bussed him. I'm really surprised I survived that.

I think the main reason you survived is that we all basically said that it was really obvious, in that event, and decided it was too unlikely. WIFOM working in your favor, for once.