Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: itg on December 05, 2013, 02:33:04 am

Title: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 05, 2013, 02:33:04 am
For the 100th Anniversary of Heartmine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128226.0) (well, more like 96th, but who's counting), I have finished one of the all-time most sought-after megaprojects: a true skyfort, that is, a fully functional fort built with cave-ins ON and no connection to the ground. To my knowledge, this has never been done before, and in fact people have been saying it is impossible for years (see, for instance, posts from the Mythbusters 2010 thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=search2). As per my usual format, here's a how-to with a bunch of pictures:

Spoiler: Bedrooms 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bedrooms 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Statue Garden (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Dining Hall (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Stockpiles/Pastures (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Workshops (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Window plugs (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Overview (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Sky support (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Why Sky Support Exists (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Building and Casting (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Beds (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Magma Forges (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Nail it to the Sky (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Cutting the Tether (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Overseer Screenshots (click to show/hide)

View the skyfort at DF Map Archive: http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-31249-skyfort (http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-31249-skyfort)

Edit 3/25/14: Urist da Vinci disassembled the game to figure out why sky support exists. See "Why Sky Support Exists."
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 05, 2013, 02:34:39 am
Reserved.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Ravendarksky on December 05, 2013, 03:05:50 am
Wow this is cool :-) I will definitely have a play around with the physics behind this when I get a chance. I am in awe at your skills to handle such a delicate megaproject... Did a lot of savescumming occur? The lengths you've had to go to are extreme... I don't think I'd have figured out the magma forges.

Can I just check something.... Could a true freestanding fort be created over a frozen ocean? I was under the impression that when ice melts it doesn't perform a stability check so you can make floating structures that way.... I've never tried myself though. also i guess it might not survive a save/reload. I will have a look when I get home but I'm on my mobile just now.


Can I make a suggestion for your fortress? Have a mine cart launcher to allow migrants to fly up to your fort :-) or do you want to keep the ground pristine below?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Dwarf4Explosives on December 05, 2013, 07:31:21 am
As always, your megaproject is one with only one practical usage that I can think of: easy disposing of nobles. Also, it's damn impressive.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: KingBacon on December 05, 2013, 10:22:43 am
So how many corpses did this project generate?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Ruhn on December 05, 2013, 12:42:46 pm
This surely wins "megaproject of December 2013" in my books.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 05, 2013, 09:11:49 pm
Wow this is cool :-) I will definitely have a play around with the physics behind this when I get a chance. I am in awe at your skills to handle such a delicate megaproject... Did a lot of savescumming occur? The lengths you've had to go to are extreme... I don't think I'd have figured out the magma forges.

Can I just check something.... Could a true freestanding fort be created over a frozen ocean? I was under the impression that when ice melts it doesn't perform a stability check so you can make floating structures that way.... I've never tried myself though. also i guess it might not survive a save/reload. I will have a look when I get home but I'm on my mobile just now.


Can I make a suggestion for your fortress? Have a mine cart launcher to allow migrants to fly up to your fort :-) or do you want to keep the ground pristine below?

Yeah, there was a bit of savescumming, mostly during the "why the hell am I getting random cave-ins" phase of the projects. Of course, that's how I discovered the "power mining" procedure. I also had a separate save file for testing with dfhack, so I could quickly do a lot of small-scale experiments.

I'm not sure whether the melting frozen ocean causes a stability check (although I think you're right that it does not). However, any structure built that way definitely wouldn't survive reloading.

The minecart idea is a good one. It's actually something I was thinking about doing, but I put it off because I wanted to figure out how far I can actually launch a minecart.


As always, your megaproject is one with only one practical usage that I can think of: easy disposing of nobles. Also, it's damn impressive.

Hehe, I consider myself a leading authority on uselessness.

So how many corpses did this project generate?

About 10-15, mainly deconstruction accidents while taking down the pump stacks.

This surely wins "megaproject of December 2013" in my books.

Thanks!
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: wierd on December 05, 2013, 09:15:26 pm
What I am curious about, is if you can nail to the map edge instead of the sky, using obsidian casting on top of say, a bridge.

That would give horizontal support without the caveats of sky support.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: misko27 on December 05, 2013, 10:00:55 pm
Well well. Wow. And I bet they called you mad to even try. Dwarf Physics has gained a great piece of knowledge from your endeavor; and Dwarven architecture has gained a new powerful new tool, one that has granted a a record setting fort. Urist McScience thanks you, and the Dwarves thank you.


So wait, if you had support on the bottom of one of the held-up pillars, and that support carried a number of walls and/or natural rock beneath it, and you connected that support to a lever, you could drop cave-ins from the sky? From now on, no enemy is safe from our wrath; for we have combined the height of the sky and the might of the mountains.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: wierd on December 05, 2013, 10:44:09 pm
Nono-- more horrible than that.

1) sky support overrides ground support, with some caveats.
2) sky support is only vertically transferred. It does not provide horizontal support.

This means:

If you build a "tube" of supports up to the sky, and tack it on, any ground that *was* receiving horizontal support will become unsupported(1), and cave in.

The lack of horizontal support transfer is why his floating fortress requires buildings and floors to be constructed in place, and then cast inside the obsidian during construction, because there won't be support for them otherwise.(2)

That means that if you create such a tube reaching up to the sky, and descending all the way to the SMR, leaving JUST ONE horizontal support providing wall to hold it up-- the very second that wall is carved into a support, the entire tube and all of its contents will "collapse" into the SMR and be destroyed. Using some additional trickery, this can also destroy the otherwise unminable tiles on the edges of the map. You can cause almost complete annihilation of the entire embark, by ordering the final support be carved.


Last dwarf standing can have his vengence, and literally take them all with him straight to hell.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: King Mir on December 06, 2013, 12:39:54 am
Very cool.


Why does sky support even exist?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: cue on December 06, 2013, 01:15:25 am
I've always thought of sky support as a weapon, this takes it to new heights(mind the pun). How long in hours did this take you to do?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Ruhn on December 06, 2013, 12:20:14 pm
Should something be added to the wiki for this discovery?

I'm thinking a new section in Physics (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Physics) that talks about supports, or maybe gravity.
If itg agrees, we can also add an entry in the list of mega project ideas (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Megaprojects).
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 06, 2013, 12:32:56 pm
What I am curious about, is if you can nail to the map edge instead of the sky, using obsidian casting on top of say, a bridge.

That would give horizontal support without the caveats of sky support.

Unfortunately, the map's edge doesn't provide any support at all.

Very cool.


Why does sky support even exist?

Very good question. I can't imagine why it would be intentional behavior, but if sky support was not intended (I wouldn't call it a bug, per se), it's hard to see how that behavior could be produced accidentally. Pure speculation: maybe the game checks for support in the z direction first (logical enough, since most tiles will have support directly below), but when it hits the sky, it doesn't know what to do, so it just aborts the check. Those tiles which were part of the aborted check now don't get flagged as "supported," but neither do they trigger a cave-in.

Should something be added to the wiki for this discovery?

I'm thinking a new section in Physics (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Physics) that talks about supports, or maybe gravity.
If itg agrees, we can also add an entry in the list of mega project ideas (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Megaprojects).

I'd love to see it on both wiki pages. I can add it myself eventually, but if you or anyone else want to beat me to it, go for it.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: gchristopher on December 06, 2013, 12:59:10 pm
Wow, I love it! Not just the ingenuity to figure out all the physics, but the dedication to really bash your face into them so thoroughly! Very nice work!
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: VerdantSF on December 06, 2013, 01:12:03 pm
Amazing!
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: SkyRender on December 07, 2013, 01:34:05 pm
You know, I always wondered when someone would make a proper "flying fortress".  I knew it was possible the first time I built fortifications at the top of the map and discovered that the walls below said fortifications didn't cave in when I made an "unfortunate accident" happen to the tower.  Well done!
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 08, 2013, 06:50:45 pm
I was messing around with Overseer again, and I took some pictures. As usual, Overseer really only shows the rough shapes of things, ignoring all stairs, buildings, and most colors.




(http://i.imgur.com/Vk9RCSZ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/CUiaNip.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/m4Ax78Q.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/iaAvaIs.png)
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Lich180 on December 08, 2013, 06:59:06 pm
That makes it all the more impressive, a massive block of obsidian seemingly magically suspended from the sky...
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: WanderingKid on December 08, 2013, 07:07:23 pm
With those pictures, only one thought came to mind...

"Ma Urist?  Rememba when I tol' you our cows they was dissappearins'?  Yeah.  That there UFO thingie musta tooken 'em."
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: vanatteveldt on December 08, 2013, 07:17:23 pm
Excellent work! I would never have the patience to figure out the sky support mechanics, let alone the procedures to get around the support problems. Chapeau!

I'm pretty sure sky support is a bug, did anyone file it yet?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: KingBacon on December 08, 2013, 08:38:20 pm
Wait? Is that magma and water suspended without a floor? Have you violated fluid physics? Are dorfs now walking on the ceiling?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: ImagoDeo on December 08, 2013, 10:03:38 pm
The floor isn't rendered from below in that tool.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 09, 2013, 05:53:06 pm
I've always thought of sky support as a weapon, this takes it to new heights(mind the pun). How long in hours did this take you to do?

Sorry, overlooked this post the other day. I really have no idea how many hours I spent on it. Maybe 40-50? The actual construction took 6-7 in-game years, but there was plenty of Science time and some crashes.

Excellent work! I would never have the patience to figure out the sky support mechanics, let alone the procedures to get around the support problems. Chapeau!

I'm pretty sure sky support is a bug, did anyone file it yet?

If it's a bug, it's one of those benign bugs that actually make the game better, like the old booster bug in Minecraft. Sky support is something you have to go far out of your way to encounter, it's only useful for advanced projects, and while it is possible to damage your fort by accident with sky support, I seem to be the only person ever to do so.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: MDFification on December 18, 2013, 09:16:17 am
My Armok...

We've walled and roofed whole map tiles just because the sun irritated us. We've drained the magma sea and built a fort under it. We've drained the real sea, just to try and get at mermaid bones. We built a fort in hell just to prove we could. And now, we've built a fort in the sky.
There is no natural obstacle a dwarf has not overcome.

And they did this all drunk.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Grim Portent on December 18, 2013, 11:46:33 am
My Armok...

We've walled and roofed whole map tiles just because the sun irritated us. We've drained the magma sea and built a fort under it. We've drained the real sea, just to try and get at mermaid bones. We built a fort in hell just to prove we could. And now, we've built a fort in the sky.
There is no natural obstacle a dwarf has not overcome.

And they did this all drunk.

Now we need to do it after modding out their eyes. Or making booze slowly kill them by rotting the liver.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: vanatteveldt on December 18, 2013, 12:28:11 pm
Or making booze slowly kill them by rotting the liver.

It already does. it takes around 160 years.

Seriously, have you ever heard about a dwarf dying of cancer or something silly like that?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: shadowclasper on December 18, 2013, 05:36:50 pm
Somebody modify the skyfort entry in the wikipedia. It needs to be noted.

Secondly, we need to make note of the Icicle phenomenon there as well.

Truly comrades. This game continues to surprise us even to this day.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Ruhn on December 19, 2013, 01:16:29 pm
They aren't pretty, but an entry was added to megaprojects (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Megaprojects) and a DF2012:Skyfort (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Skyfort) page was started.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 21, 2013, 08:46:37 pm
I updated my fort on Df Map Archive (http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-31249-skyfort) to include the skyfort.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: gtaguy on December 21, 2013, 11:30:23 pm
My Armok...

We've walled and roofed whole map tiles just because the sun irritated us. We've drained the magma sea and built a fort under it. We've drained the real sea, just to try and get at mermaid bones. We built a fort in hell just to prove we could. And now, we've built a fort in the sky.
There is no natural obstacle a dwarf has not overcome.

And we did this all drunk.

Sig'd
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: shadowclasper on December 21, 2013, 11:47:30 pm
Jesus... that map has more things on it than anything I've ever seen.

itg, you are a scholar and a gentleman, having discerned more about dwaven physics in one map than almost anyone else in their entire career of playing the game.

I hope when the new release comes you'll replicate these to ensure they still function?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Di on December 22, 2013, 09:14:11 am
Wow, truly amazing.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: TD1 on December 22, 2013, 03:24:37 pm
Come the next update, he'll probably make a fort in outer space or some such. Wow, mental image of an InterDwarven Space Station....

Anyway, nice work. Gotta see if I can replicate this.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: gtaguy on December 22, 2013, 04:44:32 pm
Come the next update, he'll probably make a fort in outer space or some such. Wow, mental image of an InterDwarven Space Station....

Anyway, nice work. Gotta see if I can replicate this.

Maybe some sort of specially created map that has a few 'asteroids' with materials inside them, maybe magma aswell. A box with some starting supplies (a farm, some building supplies, a few crafting stations), seven dwarves, and a dream.

Ofc we would need empty space between everything, with no floor whatsoever, and cave ins off (we are in space). It would make for an interesting map.

Also we could get Deon to mod in life support.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: TD1 on December 22, 2013, 05:03:01 pm
Life support?? That will be a strange development for Dwarves indeed...They are much more used to bringing on death than supporting life
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: gtaguy on December 22, 2013, 05:10:12 pm
Life support?? That will be a strange development for Dwarves indeed...They are much more used to bringing on death than supporting life

Alcohol needs air to brew, so they will have to devise a way to recycle fart gas back into oxygen to brew more wine.

Deon: add in a new liquid, call it 'air', make [lung]s act like gills to 'air', make a methods for generating air, post mod.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: wierd on December 22, 2013, 06:55:44 pm
Air isnt the problem.

Vaccuum needs to be modded in.

Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: gtaguy on December 22, 2013, 07:07:01 pm
Air isnt the problem.

Vaccuum needs to be modded in.

As simulated by the 'liquid' flowing off the station. It falls down into empty space until it doesn't exist anymore. So you would need airlocks(doors) to keep air in, but allow external access.

Really the only system that needs adding is dwarves actually requiring air, and holding breath to construct outside the station. Dwarves are immune to radiation, I make mugs out of pitchblende and they survive just fine.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: shadowclasper on December 22, 2013, 09:19:55 pm
Air isnt the problem.

Vaccuum needs to be modded in.

Okay, here's what you do.

You mod Dwarves to have some sort of delayed Air-Drowning.

THen you have to fill your fortress with water. That represents normal atmosphere you're trying to protect while going outside of the air lock to gather materials on this alien landscape.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: TD1 on December 23, 2013, 04:57:49 pm
You lot do realise I wasn't being serious, lol. Though it does sound good.

Also, shadowclasper, is
Who says ya can't grab a shadow? LOOK! I did, right there! BOOM! Look, I did it again. See? Easy.
A reference to the Kingkiller Chronicles?
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 24, 2013, 06:15:46 am
Jesus... that map has more things on it than anything I've ever seen.

itg, you are a scholar and a gentleman, having discerned more about dwaven physics in one map than almost anyone else in their entire career of playing the game.

I hope when the new release comes you'll replicate these to ensure they still function?

Thanks! I may end up replicating much of this science again in the new release, mainly because I have a project in mind that happens to combine most of the physics from my previous projects. I highly doubt dwarven physics will change much (if at all) in the new release, since Toady isn't working on that part of the game, to my knowledge.

Air isnt the problem.

Vaccuum needs to be modded in.

Okay, here's what you do.

You mod Dwarves to have some sort of delayed Air-Drowning.

THen you have to fill your fortress with water. That represents normal atmosphere you're trying to protect while going outside of the air lock to gather materials on this alien landscape.

Unfortunately, pathing underwater is pretty screwed up, and dwarves won't take jobs underwater. Maybe it would be more feasible to mod in permanent suffocating rain? Maybe it would be possible to mod the "sun sickness" from cave adaptation to be lethal over time? Failing at those options, you could just make the outside temperature really, really cold, so the dwarves die of exposure within a few seconds.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Dwarf4Explosives on December 24, 2013, 07:37:46 am
All of those routes seem like they would simulate things pretty well, but the problem is that creatures won't spawn at the top of the map, so you won't get attacked by alien monsters, an essential part of any space simulation.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: MDFification on December 24, 2013, 01:38:19 pm
Jesus... that map has more things on it than anything I've ever seen.

itg, you are a scholar and a gentleman, having discerned more about dwaven physics in one map than almost anyone else in their entire career of playing the game.

I hope when the new release comes you'll replicate these to ensure they still function?

Thanks! I may end up replicating much of this science again in the new release, mainly because I have a project in mind that happens to combine most of the physics from my previous projects. I highly doubt dwarven physics will change much (if at all) in the new release, since Toady isn't working on that part of the game, to my knowledge.

Air isnt the problem.

Vaccuum needs to be modded in.

Okay, here's what you do.

You mod Dwarves to have some sort of delayed Air-Drowning.

THen you have to fill your fortress with water. That represents normal atmosphere you're trying to protect while going outside of the air lock to gather materials on this alien landscape.

Unfortunately, pathing underwater is pretty screwed up, and dwarves won't take jobs underwater. Maybe it would be more feasible to mod in permanent suffocating rain? Maybe it would be possible to mod the "sun sickness" from cave adaptation to be lethal over time? Failing at those options, you could just make the outside temperature really, really cold, so the dwarves die of exposure within a few seconds.

Pretty sure the "irritated by the sun" is hardcoded, so it can't be modded. I'm not sure if it's possible to ensure the timing of weather, although I could be wrong on that later part.
As amazing as it sounds, SpaceDorfstm is probably not feasible.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 25, 2013, 11:45:48 am
Didn't Bloodfist do this first? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36955.msg591913#msg591913)
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Dwarf4Explosives on December 25, 2013, 12:38:34 pm
That was with no cave-ins on. This was with cave-ins on.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 25, 2013, 01:09:44 pm
That was with no cave-ins on. This was with cave-ins on.
So it is. I thought the sky-support thing was well known; in any case, I wonder how it took this long for someone to take the plunge and make it happen. Congratulations itg!
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on December 25, 2013, 04:17:30 pm
That was with no cave-ins on. This was with cave-ins on.
So it is. I thought the sky-support thing was well known; in any case, I wonder how it took this long for someone to take the plunge and make it happen. Congratulations itg!

Thanks! To my knowledge, the community has been aware of the basics of sky support for a long time, but nobody thought to cast obsidian over the furniture and then dig stairs over it; that's what makes it possible to have a working fort with workshops and bedrooms rather than just a "surveillance platform" of supports and floors. Also, I discovered that sky support can be used to engineer some surprising cave-ins, including collapsing semi-molten rock into the HFS.
Title: Re: On the Construction of the First True Skyfort (Cave-ins ON)
Post by: itg on March 25, 2014, 02:41:52 am
Updated to include Urist da Vinci's explanation of sky support.