I didn't read the entirety of the second link, but would anyone hazard a guess if the Alcubierre Drive would work in atmosphere, and the Drive's effects on solid matter?
By "science" you mean "cracked" right?Dont worry. Where we are going we wont need eyes to see
This is gonna be sweet until the first ship comes back full of demons.
Math's just a language, one that allows models that don't neceseraly reflect reality. It's physics you need. I'm mostly curious as to how these scientists are doing their measurements rather then their theorizing.For now, they didn't. This entire idea is completely theoretical. So either the warp drive works, or our understanding of physics is wrong (again).
The Alcubierre theory, or anything similar, did not exist when the series was conceived, but Alcubierre stated in an email to William Shatner that his theory was directly inspired by the term used in the show,[17] and references it in his 1994 paper
By "science" you mean "cracked" right?
This is gonna be sweet until the first ship comes back full of demons.
It's highly unlikely that the drive can be used in athmosphere, as the exotic matter bubble would collapse due to friction.
Also, Hawking radiation at FTL speeds might fry the entire thing
Presumably, as long as nothing 'fell out' of the bubble prematurely, anything you passed by would be left roughly the same as it began, since the compression and dilation would (or at least are supposed to) cancel each other out.Well, the passing stuff would still spend some time inside the bubble as superheated plasma, which may or may not have severe effects on its chemical and/or physical structure. Also, what happens if something only passes through the bubble with one side?
By "science" you mean "cracked" right?
This is gonna be sweet until the first ship comes back full of demons.
I wish Cracked was more accurate... I stopped reading it a while ago after I noticed how far its credibility was stretched in my head.
Daemons aren't gonna eat your eyes. I mean, they're not unreasonable.
However I'd like very much to take a peek into the warp. Just, ya well, to see what it looks like.
TOTALLY WORTH IT.Daemons aren't gonna eat your eyes. I mean, they're not unreasonable.
However I'd like very much to take a peek into the warp. Just, ya well, to see what it looks like.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The demons better hope our FTL doesn't take us to them. You don't want to play the extermination game with humanity, oh no.
The demons better hope our FTL doesn't take us to them. You don't want to play the extermination game with humanity, oh no.
Do you think the demons are there, telling stories about the humans committing severe acts of depravity, destruction and horror, whilst they go around in a cultured, peaceful hellish landscape?
As I recall, this still requires some exotic matter. Also someone will need to explain to me how they plan to accomplish the expansion of space-time; contraction is easy comparatively.Well, under some circumstances the Casimir effect could do that, IIRC, but then you're looking at a nanometer-scale device.
"Fly me closer, I want to hit them with my bubble of distorted space-time!" works for me.Yeah, I was thinking that firing a host of drones with small Alcubierre drives on them would make a great weapon. Have them go superluminal close to the enemy hull (or enemy planet) and watch the fireworks. Sure, the drone will get cooked in a sea of plasma shortly thereafter, but if that plasma was formerly the hull of the ship (and some of its innhabitants), then mission accomplished.
Hrrm Alcubierre missiles."Fly me closer, I want to hit them with my bubble of distorted space-time!" works for me.Yeah, I was thinking that firing a host of drones with small Alcubierre drives on them would make a great weapon. Have them go superluminal close to the enemy hull (or enemy planet) and watch the fireworks. Sure, the drone will get cooked in a sea of plasma shortly thereafter, but if that plasma was formerly the hull of the ship (and some of its innhabitants), then mission accomplished.
Or in the case of planets, see how far it can penetrate into the atmosphere before failing, leaving behind a downward pressure wave of expanding plasma. Not to mention if the drive stops suddenly, you're going to have a shockwave created by that compression front suddenly not being compressed. Only, it's not just an atmospheric pressure wave, it's a spacetime pressure wave. Not even sure what the fuck that would do, but I'm assuming it would be bad for the target.
This is assuming that the drives become relatively simple and cost-effective to manufacture, of course.
If this works, the whole idea of Colonizing other planets not being possible will just be thrown out the window. I mean, If we can get to Say... Kepler in the next 5 years or so it would be The Defining moment of mankind right there.
Got me thinking: It'd be like the Age of Sail, but in SPEHSS and with less disease. Which would be awesome.
Hrrm Alcubierre missiles."Fly me closer, I want to hit them with my bubble of distorted space-time!" works for me.Yeah, I was thinking that firing a host of drones with small Alcubierre drives on them would make a great weapon. Have them go superluminal close to the enemy hull (or enemy planet) and watch the fireworks. Sure, the drone will get cooked in a sea of plasma shortly thereafter, but if that plasma was formerly the hull of the ship (and some of its innhabitants), then mission accomplished.
Or in the case of planets, see how far it can penetrate into the atmosphere before failing, leaving behind a downward pressure wave of expanding plasma. Not to mention if the drive stops suddenly, you're going to have a shockwave created by that compression front suddenly not being compressed. Only, it's not just an atmospheric pressure wave, it's a spacetime pressure wave. Not even sure what the fuck that would do, but I'm assuming it would be bad for the target.
This is assuming that the drives become relatively simple and cost-effective to manufacture, of course.
Wait what happens when one Alcubierre drive acts on a region of space being acted on by another drive?
If this works, the whole idea of Colonizing other planets not being possible will just be thrown out the window. I mean, If we can get to Say... Kepler in the next 5 years or so it would be The Defining moment of mankind right there.
Screw that, I want a two-way ticket to Alpha Centauri. :PThanks, but I think I'll be staying away from the system with the dormant sentient planet. :P
Screw that, I want a two-way ticket to Alpha Centauri. :PI think a threeway on Alpha Centauri might be nice as well.
Wouldn't work. It would destroy itself rapidly if activated in atmosphere.Yeah, the idea of using a warp drive as weapon has several flaws.
Wouldn't work. It would destroy itself rapidly if activated in atmosphere.Yeah, the idea of using a warp drive as weapon has several flaws.
First of all, the negative energy matter field creating the warp would fall apart due to interaction with anything substantial. So anything more than a few atoms.
Secondly, destroying something with a warp field relies on heating them up rapidly and spewing it back out in a broken state. What appears to be ignored is that the storm of hot plasma is going to travel through the bubble. (Ie, onto the ship).
THird, the warp drives use the mass energy equivalent of a small sattelite. You can blow up a lot of things with that amount of energy.
So.
When's this experiment they're doing gonna be finished?
So you're now supercooled?No, no, no...the trailing edge is supercooled. He's compressed, and thus a little exothermic under the collar. Especially now that his collar is shrunk to roughly Planck length.
How's that feel?
Shouldn't he have been fried by the radiation that is produced? I read that would be a real problem for the area you'd be travelling to.Depends on the coefficient of speed. A relatively minor "tilt" would just generate some heat. Very high speed tilts would theoretically turn just about everything into gamma rays. So maybe he'd have superpowers.
So.Random yelling
When's this experiment they're doing gonna be finished?
At least it's possible, though. Just not with what we have. Now, with antimatter-matter reactors...And where are you going to get the antimatter from?
You don't need to be making a profit. We're trying to release a lot of energy at once in a specific format to warp spacetime, not make an energy profit.That'll work. Probably. There are easier ways to do it though.
Not all at once. I mean gradually, which means that the energy needs to be prepared to be released beforehand. Antimatter is excellent for this.Not really. It's highly unstable, and requires lot's of energy for containment. It does have a high energy density. It all depends which sort of power you need, and what the limitations on the ship are. It might be possible to provide the energy with a laser from Earth, for example.
Pretty sure that's right, because at launch, V'Ger ran on about 470 watts.You can't know that. V'Ger (and its three immediate predecessors) haven't even been launched yet, with only Voyagers 1 and 2 so far having been launched. (In our time-line, at least!)
Also, I think that this method avoids the problem of time dilation, imaginary time, infinite mass etc. too.
So, to an outside observer, you arrive there at the SoL?Erm... if that's about what I just put (must be), and you didn't start right at the top (I told you not to, because that was the original replying vector, before I went off into the fantasy I decided needed conveying here), then... no.
Basically, we can come up with theories left, right and centre, but until it is done, we have fuck all of an idea of what WILL DEFINITELY happen.Indeedily.
And you're assuming at terran-type biochemistry.It doesn't matter if they are pure energy beings. We WILL find a way to make a profit out of them.
And you're assuming at terran-type biochemistry.It doesn't matter if they are pure energy beings. We WILL find a way to make a profit out of them.
What does a 'pure energy being' even entitle? For that matter, what is 'pure energy'? And how does it form a being?!? If it is pure energy, wouldn't it be a perfectly homogeneous blob of energy? Can a perfectly homogeneous blob of anything ever be a sentient being?A complex interaction of magnetic loops?
I'm sure our elven hatred and insanity can produce exotic matter. We shall fuel this engine with insanity and hatred to ascend to the stars!
Math's just a language, one that allows models that don't neceseraly reflect reality. It's physics you need.Recently I stumbled upon a definition of maths that changed my perception of it entirely.
Just remember. Yog Sothoth is the Key AND the GateMath's just a language, one that allows models that don't neceseraly reflect reality. It's physics you need.Recently I stumbled upon a definition of maths that changed my perception of it entirely.
Numbers are all vectors, axioms are everything that define how maths works.
The axioms describe how our universe works; if you changed the universe - you change the axioms, and so change the numbers.
So in this regard maths isn't a language, but a description of how the world works investigated by physics.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2050#comicAnd you're assuming at terran-type biochemistry.It doesn't matter if they are pure energy beings. We WILL find a way to make a profit out of them.
We can power our ships with them!
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2050#comicAnd you're assuming at terran-type biochemistry.It doesn't matter if they are pure energy beings. We WILL find a way to make a profit out of them.
We can power our ships with them!
Hmm...well at least the Alcubierre bubble should be free of Hounds of Tindalos, since it doesn't have any angled surfaces.Just remember. Yog Sothoth is the Key AND the GateMath's just a language, one that allows models that don't neceseraly reflect reality. It's physics you need.Recently I stumbled upon a definition of maths that changed my perception of it entirely.
Numbers are all vectors, axioms are everything that define how maths works.
The axioms describe how our universe works; if you changed the universe - you change the axioms, and so change the numbers.
So in this regard maths isn't a language, but a description of how the world works investigated by physics.
It is kind of ironic that most of human progress has come from someone trying to find a better way to kill, sell or exploit. Art, music and literature were just kind of side effects created to pass the time (and give somebody something to sell).Kinda unfair generalization, considering how a lot of those things appeared in isolationist societies and societies without monetary values :<
Maybe the latter part was a tad cynical. But the original assertion stands. Even the most remote tribe in the Amazon eventually advances their technology by finding a better way to kill prey they're hunting, or exploit their resources more efficiently. Selling does take two parties, but as soon as the notion of trade exists, somebody is hard at work finding a way to optimize the system to their benefit. That's what humans do...we're extraordinarily good at gaming the system to our own ends, whether that system be man-made, like economics, or universal like physics. I mean, look at the Alcubierre Drive...it's essentially trying to exploit some quirks in the math of the universe to do things we "shouldn't" be able to.It is kind of ironic that most of human progress has come from someone trying to find a better way to kill, sell or exploit. Art, music and literature were just kind of side effects created to pass the time (and give somebody something to sell).Kinda unfair generalization, considering how a lot of those things appeared in isolationist societies and societies without monetary values :<
Possibly. It lowered the quality of life of those who engaged in it for a long time, so it may well have been an infectious fluke, if ultimately one that paid off.Wait, what?
Then what's agriculture? A fluke?A more effective way to exploit resources (particularly manpower). Tribe gets too big, becomes hard to obtain enough food via hunting and gathering. Agriculture is inefficient with small groups, not only because of the labor-intensive nature of farming, but the infrastructure required to exploit it effectively (granaries, mills, irrigation, etc.)
It's also well-recorded that many hunter-gatherer tribes- those living on arable land- are perfectly aware of the possibility of crops, but disdain it. The loss of freedom is intolerable.That is today, after they have encountered agricultural peoples. You can not infer whether ancient hunter-gatherers were aware of the possibility of crops, or whether they disdained it.
Agriculture was the beginning of social stratification and inequality.So we can see who had an interest...
It's also well-recorded that many hunter-gatherer tribes- those living on arable land- are perfectly aware of the possibility of crops, but disdain it. The loss of freedom is intolerable.That could very well be a cultural thing, especially considering that if they stayed hunter-gatherers for so long they're bound to have developed some prejudices against agriculture.
Conclusion of derail:Hopefuly you won't mind if I sig that.
Humanity has a habit of putting people who like exploiting people into positions of power over people.
Resulting in exploitation.
Conclusion of derail:Might be related to the Peter Principle.
Humanity has a habit of putting people who like exploiting people into positions of power over people.
Resulting in exploitation.
Anything about the science? Please?
You become dependent on one source of food, while hunter gatherers depend on several (Berries, catch, whatever edible stuff they find). Hunter gatherers can also move if they want to. It's higly unlikely that they'll find nothing for several weeks.Agriculture was the beginning of social stratification and inequality.So we can see who had an interest...
But food security becoming a problem? The entire idea of agriculture is having a more secure source of food - if you catch no game, you're gone in two or three weeks; if you're growing your own food, you can stay in one place set up a stockpile to get over the shortages..
- Sending messenger ships back and forth, carrying information between locations. Sort of like how we had runners in the past to relay information, but in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
Sending messenger ships back and forth, carrying information between locations. Sort of like how we had runners in the past to relay information, but in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.And name the organization managing all of that the Spacing Guild while we're at it.
Could we call it the Space Post Office of Space?Sending messenger ships back and forth, carrying information between locations. Sort of like how we had runners in the past to relay information, but in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.And name the organization managing all of that the Spacing Guild while we're at it.
Could we call it the Space Post Office of Space?Needs more Space.
Needs more spice.This. FTL travel can kill you without the stuff.
Needs more spice.This. FTL travel can kill you without the stuff.
You people are all being very silly. Obviously the only logical name for such an organization is the Space Pony Express. Or Robot Space Pony Express if they use drones.-snip--snip--snip-
It won't repell it. It will rapidly compress it (turning it into plasma), then cool it down when it leaves on the other side. The fun fact is that neither the ship, nor the particle are moving at relativistic speed inside the bubble (Unless the particle collided at relativistic speeds). So yeah, it'd be just as dangerous as a vapourized micrometeroid.Needs more spice.This. FTL travel can kill you without the stuff.
Hehe... speaking of which, the whole reason for the spice was to give Navigators the prescient vision needed to know the one trajectory that wouldn't warp your ship into any solid matter. When you're traveling at near-relativistic speeds, a pebble or cloud of dust will collide with you and generate enough heat and pressure to trigger explosions of plasma and nuclear fusion. And that's during the fraction of an instant that they completely slice through the ship, you, and everything else you're carrying.
However... since these are only moving on a 4D/Time Axis, and not in 3D Space, I wonder if this bubble of local space/time will repel other matter from outside. And if so, that has a whole 'nother set of awesome applications in things like force-fields, etc.
Can't transfer classical information that way, sorry. Any attempt at modifying the system in a way that is measurable as a definite 'bit' on the other side will break the entanglement, since the particles have to be in thermodynamic equilibrium.I believe the idea was that you would rapidly break and replace the entanglement to transfer the data, much in the same way it could be used for functional teleportation, but quicker.
The bit is modified when the entanglement breaks. Enough of this will result in parsable communication.You can't distinguish between modification of the bit upon breaking the entanglement or modification of the bit upon measuring it, so I don't see how you're going to actually extract that information?
I don't know much about how one observes the state of quantum entanglement. Don't suppose there's a byproduct of entanglement that's measurable, which wouldn't interfere with the source?You can't actually measure entanglement itself. The only way to determine if two particles are entangled is to measure the state of both particles and see if they're correlated. But to do that comparison you need to transfer classical data through another channel, which is limited by the speed of light (and it defeats the whole purpose of having communication through entanglement)
If so, you could probably use frequency of entanglement breaks to communicate data, yeah?
OK, is it just me, or does anyone else keep reading the title as Albuquerque Drive?I didn't, mainly because I probably would have spelt it "Albequerque" (or maybe even worse than that "...kirkie"?), but now I doubtless will.
OK, is it just me, or does anyone else keep reading the title as Albuquerque Drive?
Invent that, and you will become a billionaire!OK, is it just me, or does anyone else keep reading the title as Albuquerque Drive?
((Had to look that one up))
So a FTL drive powered by an American city. I'm afraid we haven't managed a stupidity to energy transfer yet.
Apparently, one Albuquerque Drive has already been built (http://goo.gl/maps/uLjyf).Hmm, so if you stretch that road from Earth to Alpha Centauri then travel between here and there would be like a walk to the shops. (I didn't actually see any shops on it, of course, so I might be wrong about that.)
Invent that, and you will become a billionaire!OK, is it just me, or does anyone else keep reading the title as Albuquerque Drive?
((Had to look that one up))
So a FTL drive powered by an American city. I'm afraid we haven't managed a stupidity to energy transfer yet.
No way, we aren't unleashing spambots on the universe.I wonder how aliens would react to our species if their first contact with us was an ad for tentacle enhancement pills.
If I remember right, Alcubierre drives are a paradox because you need a previous Alcubierre drive to pave the way for the one coming. Hence, it's impossible.IIRC, that's only true for a FTL Alcubierre drive made without using exotic mater.
Oh great, it's either impossible because we haven't built one yet, or it's impossible because we're using imaginary matter to build one.If I remember right, Alcubierre drives are a paradox because you need a previous Alcubierre drive to pave the way for the one coming. Hence, it's impossible.IIRC, that's only true for a FTL Alcubierre drive made without using exotic mater.
Exotic matter. Negative density matter to be precise. Besides, we could try using the Casimir effect to replace the exotic matterOh great, it's either impossible because we haven't built one yet, or it's impossible because we're using imaginary matter to build one.If I remember right, Alcubierre drives are a paradox because you need a previous Alcubierre drive to pave the way for the one coming. Hence, it's impossible.IIRC, that's only true for a FTL Alcubierre drive made without using exotic mater.
That's physics for you. It really says something when a field of science has two entire subfields that are completely devoted to the theoretical aspects of it.Which two subfields do you mean?
Strangest is when it actually starts to produce benefits, despite still not knowing if the material exists.Well, it hasn't produced benefits yet, now has it? Or are you thinking of something else?
Theoretical Physics and Theoretical Particle Physics, which do not overlap as much as you might think.That's physics for you. It really says something when a field of science has two entire subfields that are completely devoted to the theoretical aspects of it.Which two subfields do you mean?
Strangest is when it actually starts to produce benefits, despite still not knowing if the material exists.Well, it hasn't produced benefits yet, now has it? Or are you thinking of something else?
You just butchered the Bayer system, Starver. I hope you're happy. :POnly a few of you petty humans realise how limiting that system actually is, I just wanted to obscure the actual area code because I don't want you lot just turning up on my airlockstep unannounced...
I dunno about this warp drive, it's all fun and games until someone's eyes get ripped out by extra-dimensional demons.Just grab a random person, rip out his vocal chords and give him a beard and crowbar. Problem solved. Alternatively, magma.