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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Sphalerite on February 19, 2012, 08:59:30 pm

Title: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 19, 2012, 08:59:30 pm
(http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/238/whaleshoot12.png)

Oceanshoots is my last major 31.25 fortress, a fairly simple megaproject/experiment fortress set up for one purpose.  To create a situation where a dwarf could harpoon whales with ballistae arrows.

It's a bit of a silly goal, but I wanted to see if it was possible.

Challenge #1:  Catching whales.

In my earlier fortress where I set up a working sea serpent farm, I learned through trial and error several key points about how to capture non-vermin fish.

First, catching fish works best when you can get the fish to swim onto the cage traps under their own power.  Trying to force the fish through a trap array with flowing water is not very effective.

Second, aquatic animals compete with surface animals for the number of groups of wild animals allowed to be on the map at once.  Aquatic creatures also seem to be much lower priority when the game decided what group of wild animals to spawn next.  If you want to spawn wild animals in the sea, you need to prevent them from spawning on land.

Third, even creatures like sharks or sea serpents will run away from war animals.  Strategically placed war dogs can be used to drive fish into your cage traps.

I picked a 4x4 embark site that straddled two savage ocean biomes, to maximize the number of wild sea creatures that would appear.  The embark site I picked meant that the dwarves were the only civilization that could reach my fortress, though I didn't realize that at the time I embarked.  It didn't really end up making any difference anyway.

After setting up the basics of a self-sufficient fortress, I started making the trap chambers.  The embark site was divided vertically by a nearly straight coastline.  I dug chambers three tiles wide parallel to the ocean, separated by a one tile wide rock wall.   On the side of the chamber facing the ocean I built raising drawbridges, so that the chamber could be sealed off from the ocean.  The rest of the chamber was filled with cage traps.  After raising the bridges, I channeled out the last line of rock from above to connect the chamber to the ocean.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On the surface one Z-level up, I built a windmill-powered pump to pump water out of the chamber.  I also built a wall to prevent dwarves on shore from scaring or being scared by fish near the trap entrances.  I also had hoped the wall would block ocean waves, but it was completely useless for that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The same lever was used to both open and close the trap, and to engage the pump which pumps water out of the chamber.  I'd throw the lever one way to let water and fish in, wait for the trap to catch something, then throw it the other way to seal it off from the ocean and drain it so the dwarves could remove the cages and reload the traps.

I built six of these chambers, which covered nearly the entire shoreline from one end of the embark site to the other.

Now the trap wasn't catching much yet, since the local wildlife spawns were being taken up by camels and vultures and other annoying non-aquatic life.  Step two was to build raising drawbridges lining the entire edges of the surface.  Fortunately the embark site was nearly flat, so I was able to use maximum-length bridges for most of it.  This also meant completely sealing the fortress from the outside world.  No trade, no immigrants, no liaison.  Didn't really matter at this point as I already had a Baroness and a self-sufficient fortress.

After that, I only had to eliminate the last group of camels wandering around on the surface for sea creatures to start spawning.  They'd wander around the ocean and eventually get caught in the traps lining the shore.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The traps worked for a bit, until I ended up with a group of fish sitting offshore, not moving.  Seems when you get one of those groups that moves in a line, and then catch the leader, the rest of the group gets bugged and doesn't want to move again.  To solve this I built a series of platforms over the ocean, where I then stationed war dogs to scare the stuck fish into moving into the traps.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I ended up with these spanning the entire ocean side of the embark, so that there was no place a fish could sit without being in sight of a war dog.  The platforms were set up to channel creatures entering the map straight into the cage traps.  This worked astonishingly well, groups of creatures would spawn and then almost instantly flee to the shore to be caught.  The only downside to the scheme was that I ran through war dogs quickly, they kept getting into fights with sharks and drowning or bleeding to death.

Once I had the platforms in place, the fish catching system was almost too effective.  I clear-cut the entire surface of the map repeatedly trying to build enough cages, and had dwarves working non-stop to move cages into storage and load new ones into the traps.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Soon enough I had a dozen whales for the next step, along with dozens of sharks and other fish.  I also caught two sea serpents.  Both were female, unfortunately.  As an experiment I deliberately released one, and made sure it left the map without being recaptured.  Later, a second sea serpent appeared, and was caught.  This one was male.  It appears that the game tracks local biome populations as numbers rather than individual creatures, so you can get a rare creature to reappear with a different gender by releasing it and then waiting for another of that species to reappear.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 19, 2012, 09:00:00 pm
Now that I had my captive whales, I needed to set up a way to shoot them with ballista arrows.  Siege weapons in DF can only shoot at something on the same Z-level as them.  This makes it tricky to fire them at an aquatic target.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I set up a target chamber sealed by raising drawbridges on the eastern and western sides.  Above the bridges on each side were solid lines of pumps set up to pump water back into the chamber.  When active they'd create a standing wall of water, keeping the water in the target chamber even when the sealing drawbridges were lowered.  A ballista off to the side could then fire right through the chamber from the same Z-level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The target chamber opens on both the eastern and western side so that ballista arrows which passed through the target would hit the far wall and then fall down into a collection area to be reused.  The east and west sides of the chamber are also lined with wall grates, in an attempt to prevent creatures in the chamber from swimming out of the water and air-drowning.  These are not entirely effective at this.

On the south side of the chamber is a drawbridge-blocked passage through which water is pumped in from the ocean.  This is used to fill the target chamber.  This passage also is lined with cage traps, which can be used to recapture the target animals.

In the center of the north side of the chamber is a sub-chamber which is used to let animals into the target area.  Cages containing the target creatures are placed there, and then linked to a lever elsewhere. 
The chamber is filled with water.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Once the chamber is filled, the lever is pulled to release the creatures.  A war dog behind windows at the top scares the target animals into the main area. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A floodgate is then used to seal off the passage, preventing the target creatures from leaving the main chamber.

The rest of the northern side of the chamber is lined with windows, behind which is are raising drawbridges and war dogs on chains.  The bridges are usually kept raised, to hide the war dogs from the target creatures.  If I want to recapture the targets, I'll open the bridge to the south, then open the bridges in front of the war dogs, scaring the targets into the cage traps in the passage to the south.

The entire floor of the target chamber was made of retracting bridges.  On the Z-level directly below the bridges was a chamber lined with floor grates. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When the bridges were retracted, any corpses left in the target chamber would drop down onto the grates, the water draining away through channels under the grates, so that the corpses could be recovered for butchering.

Once the creatures are in the target area, the pumps are running, and the drawbridges on the eastern and western sides are lowered, the ballista can freely fire at the whales in the central chamber.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How well does it work?  Not all that well, actually.  Ballista seem to fire on a random path – there doesn't seem to be any actual correlation between where the arrows go and where the targets are.  I have a Legendary Siege Operator running the ballista (he spent years firing rocks at a wall with a catapult while the everything else was being set up).  I put a dozen whales in the chamber at once to increase the chances of the ballista arrows actually hitting something.

When one of the ballista arrows actually manages to hit, it does cause some damage.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Haven't actually killed any of them yet.  Despite what you'd think, ballista arrows act less like harpoons and more like ranged warhammers, so rather than skewering any of the targets the arrows are just causing bruises and minor injuries.  There is quite a lot of whale blood coming out of the test chamber, so maybe if I keep this up long enough they'll bleed to death, or die of infection.

I did notice one odd thing during an earlier test run with bluefin tuna.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The eastern and western sides of the chamber are lined with wall grates.  These were intended to stop creatures from swimming out the western or eastern sides of the chamber, breaching the Moses effect water wall, and air-drowning.  Wall grates, unlike fortifications, seem to block creatures from deliberately passing through them even when submerged.  They don't prevent creatures from being pushed through by moving water.  I was concerned that the whales would swim into the wrong spot and get pushed through to air-drown.  This didn't happen with whales, but when I put bluefin tuna into the chamber every one of them ended up air-drowned quickly.  I don't know if the whales were simply stronger and better able to resist moving water, or if DF is actually taking creature size into account when deciding whether a creature is pushed through grates by moving water.

Fortress map is uploaded here:

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11026-oceanshoots
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: simonthedwarf on February 19, 2012, 09:12:12 pm
GOD OF DWARVES! SPHALERITE!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: njero on February 19, 2012, 09:15:47 pm
You are, as always, amazing.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on February 19, 2012, 09:19:55 pm
... 
I don't know if the whales were simply stronger and better able to resist moving water, or if DF is actually taking creature size into account when deciding whether a creature is pushed through grates by moving water.
...

My own testing in the arena with various size creatures and flowing water indicates that larger size (heavier) creatures are pushed around less by flowing water than lightweight creatures.

Ballista bolts being blunt is a known bug, but I can't find a link in the bug tracker.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: tommy521 on February 19, 2012, 09:20:12 pm
This is why you are my favorite.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Kofthefens on February 19, 2012, 09:21:37 pm
I turn back to the forums after a few hours and... Praise Spheralite, dwarven ~Scientist~
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Rushmik on February 19, 2012, 09:31:10 pm
Beautiful, elegant. Needs more candy bolts, I think.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Talvieno on February 19, 2012, 09:36:06 pm
This is incredible... I never would've thought it possible to even hit a whale with a ballista at all. Bravo, bravo. :) I notice you're using fungiwood ballista arrows, though - why is that? I suppose metal ones would be a bit more difficult to manufacture, but they'd probably accomplish more.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 19, 2012, 09:38:36 pm
Honestly Sphalerite, when you said you were going to try butcher a whale, I didn't expect this.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 19, 2012, 09:43:10 pm
I have a batch of copper arrows under construction, I just haven't gotten around to trying them yet.  Not enough logs left to finish assembling all of them.  I really should make some steel ones too.

Candy ballista arrows?  Won't those be laughably useless, considering that ballista arrows are bludgeoning-type weapons and need mass more than sharpness?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 19, 2012, 09:49:38 pm
The time and effort put into this significantly outweigh any possible benefit, I can think of no circumstances where this could possibly be a good idea, this is ridiculously and unnecessarily cruel and the fact that you thought of it leads me to believe you are an awful person.

THIS IS THE DORFIEST THING EVER GIVE HIM YOUR SOCKS, GIVE SPHALERITE ALL OF YOUR SOCKS!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Kofthefens on February 19, 2012, 10:01:59 pm
Here, here! To the victor go the socks!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: ThatAussieGuy on February 19, 2012, 10:07:39 pm
A pair of fine GCS-silk socks for Sphalerite and his dwarfy project!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: saltmummy626 on February 19, 2012, 10:08:53 pm
sphalerite, you truly are the master of dwarven aquatic !!science!!.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: simonthedwarf on February 19, 2012, 10:33:22 pm
And they shall name him.. Aquadwarf!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Vattic on February 19, 2012, 10:54:31 pm
Nice work. You really have it in for the ocean don't you?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 19, 2012, 11:44:01 pm
Haven't actually killed any of them yet.  Despite what you'd think, ballista arrows act less like harpoons and more like ranged warhammers, so rather than skewering any of the targets the arrows are just causing bruises and minor injuries.  There is quite a lot of whale blood coming out of the test chamber, so maybe if I keep this up long enough they'll bleed to death, or die of infection.

Maybe you're using just wooden ballista arrows and they're not strong enough to pierce. Have you tried using metal ballista arrows? The wiki specifically states that wooden ballista arrows will not pierce, but instead do blunt damage, whereas metal ones are devastating.

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but I thought you might just be overlooking something small.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Mitchewawa on February 20, 2012, 12:30:54 am
Now you need to find a way to utilise all of your spare sharks and fish in some sort of elaborate shark-apult to kill dwarven traders with.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Angel-of-Dusk on February 20, 2012, 12:32:59 am
Shhhhhhh. no words. Too beautiful.

What do you mean why are my pants off?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on February 20, 2012, 12:43:28 am
Haven't actually killed any of them yet.  Despite what you'd think, ballista arrows act less like harpoons and more like ranged warhammers, so rather than skewering any of the targets the arrows are just causing bruises and minor injuries.  There is quite a lot of whale blood coming out of the test chamber, so maybe if I keep this up long enough they'll bleed to death, or die of infection.

Maybe you're using just wooden ballista arrows and they're not strong enough to pierce. Have you tried using metal ballista arrows? The wiki specifically states that wooden ballista arrows will not pierce, but instead do blunt damage, whereas metal ones are devastating.

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but I thought you might just be overlooking something small.

I specifically tested a variety of ballista bolts back in 31.25. All of them deal blunt damage. Wooden ones only suck because they weigh less. The "devastating" comment is copypasta from 40d, where ballistas actually worked.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 20, 2012, 01:00:22 am
Haven't actually killed any of them yet.  Despite what you'd think, ballista arrows act less like harpoons and more like ranged warhammers, so rather than skewering any of the targets the arrows are just causing bruises and minor injuries.  There is quite a lot of whale blood coming out of the test chamber, so maybe if I keep this up long enough they'll bleed to death, or die of infection.

Maybe you're using just wooden ballista arrows and they're not strong enough to pierce. Have you tried using metal ballista arrows? The wiki specifically states that wooden ballista arrows will not pierce, but instead do blunt damage, whereas metal ones are devastating.

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but I thought you might just be overlooking something small.

I specifically tested a variety of ballista bolts back in 31.25. All of them deal blunt damage. Wooden ones only suck because they weigh less. The "devastating" comment is copypasta from 40d, where ballistas actually worked.
I never understood the word "copypasta". Is that a reference to potentially uncredited information, or does it just mean that lots of people keep saying it?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Feb on February 20, 2012, 01:08:52 am
Now I want to build a glass dome aviary for an aerial whack-a-hole with catapults...
damn it! 
*takes off socks and leaves it on the pile*
you totally deserves it :3
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: ivanthe8th on February 20, 2012, 01:14:57 am
Sphalerite, between this project, the sea serpent farm, and the ‼well‼, you are easily my favorite person on the bay12 forums.

It's stories like this that make me love this game.

Now all we need is a collaboration project with DS to further escalate the dwarfiness.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Graebeard on February 20, 2012, 01:31:07 am
Well played, sir, well played.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Evil the Cat on February 20, 2012, 03:19:44 am
I might be remembering this wrong, but doesn't the quality of ballista's parts determines how accurate it is? I thought the skill of the operator merely determines how fast it loads..

In other news, that is a masterpiece. :)
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sus on February 20, 2012, 03:30:05 am
But... why?  :o

Never mind, my socks are off for Sphalerite, a true pioneer of Dwarven Science.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Naryar on February 20, 2012, 04:26:13 am
this is awesome. Posting to watch.

Now use a one-legged, old dwarf with a bone crutch as siege operator, and slay giant sperm whales with ballista.

Bonus points if one of your whales actually ripped off his leg.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: miauw62 on February 20, 2012, 04:29:37 am
The time and effort put into this significantly outweigh any possible benefit, I can think of no circumstances where this could possibly be a good idea, this is ridiculously and unnecessarily cruel and the fact that you thought of it leads me to believe you are an awful person.

THIS IS THE DORFIEST THING EVER GIVE HIM YOUR SOCKS, GIVE SPHALERITE ALL OF YOUR SOCKS!

Sig'd

And ofcourse, my socks off to you!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Di on February 20, 2012, 06:18:34 am
If I were a quadruped I'd throw all four socks to your feet without a doubt.

I might be remembering this wrong, but doesn't the quality of ballista's parts determines how accurate it is? I thought the skill of the operator merely determines how fast it loads..
I remember something like that too.

I never understood the word "copypasta".
It means it was merely copied from the original (40d here) and pasted into new place without any correction. In case of that given article it's has led to it being contradictory.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: slowpokez on February 20, 2012, 07:43:27 am
Sphalerite you just never seize to amaze me ;D ...oh, and if you need more socks you can have mine aswell.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Garath on February 20, 2012, 07:57:56 am
If you don't have a beard and an alcohol addiction yet, I'd be amazed. To the dwarfiest person go the socks!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Xotano on February 20, 2012, 09:20:26 am
keep up the great !!SCIENCE!! i wana see the results.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Alloran on February 20, 2012, 09:29:01 am
Throwing in my hat for the awesome !!SCIENCE!! test. SOCKS FOR THE SOCK GOD!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Garath on February 20, 2012, 09:29:36 am
by the way, pump forcefields to keep the ocean in place, I'm truly amazed
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Kogut on February 20, 2012, 09:32:07 am
It is amazing!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Meta on February 20, 2012, 09:36:09 am
Legendary topic is legendary! :)

*gives his pair of ¤phantom spider silk socks¤ to Sphalerite too*

Now we should find a new project for you. Vampire/zombies/were-animals/poisonous mist weaponizing?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Mr. Palau on February 20, 2012, 09:43:30 am
*Gives socks in tribute to Sphalerite*

Now quick question, why would you not use catapults for this? If you dump stone on the tile the seige engine operator will be standing on I have heard you can get 2-3 stones in the air at a time, and wouldn't you have been able to set up a lot more catapults because you wouldn't ahve to go through all the trouble of making ballista ammo? Also why would you cage the animals first and not just scare them directly into the camber via the war dog method you seem to have perfected?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 20, 2012, 09:51:02 am
In my experience, catapults are almost completely useless for actually damaging anything.  Ok, so are ballista arrows, but I wanted to at least try to harpoon these whales rather than just throw rocks at them.

Actually, keeping a solid supply of ammo to the ballista was never a problem.  The siege operator is confined to a burrow covering the ballista and the ammo stockpile right next to it.  The ballista arrows after being fired fall down into the collection area to the east so they can be reused.  I have a constant stream of haulers grabbing arrows from the collection area and hauling them back to the ammo stockpile.  The ballista is managing to fire nearly non-stop, the operator only having to take breaks for food or drink.

The problem with just scaring the animals into the firing range is that I wanted to be able to select what animals I was shooting at.  Whales are a rare spawn, I had to catch hundreds of other fish before enough whales showed up to set up the shot.  I have an animal stockpile full of sharks and fish, bycatch from the operation.  I also wanted to catch a breeding pair of sea serpents for a bit of farming on the side.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Aspgren on February 20, 2012, 09:58:00 am
Astonishing. Truly astonishing.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Hotaru on February 20, 2012, 10:04:58 am
Incidentally, how much is a whale aquarium worth in dwarfbucks?

You would think a lot, but then...
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Monk321654 on February 20, 2012, 10:48:05 am
Have my *Sheep Wool Socks*!
Oh, my feet are cold...
Anyway...
Big creatures like Whales could potentially stand up to large shot from something like a siege weapon.
Have you tried any smaller fish besides those tuna?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 20, 2012, 10:49:41 am
Have you tried any smaller fish besides those tuna?

Not yet.  Smaller creatures don't last long enough in the target chamber for me to even get off enough shots at them - they get pushed through the wall grates and air-drown.  I may redesign it with a second layer of grates to try and keep fish inside.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Monk321654 on February 20, 2012, 11:34:46 am
Sharks seem about Medium Size between Whales and small fish...
You should do experiments about how easy it is for certain size creatures to be pushed through grates...
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 20, 2012, 11:36:53 am
If you would please, can you post/PM me with a list of your good threads?  It seems that Dwarven Relativity fails to do you justice.  I'm now motivated to make you your own section, because every single thing that you do is amazing.

Spoiler: Take It. (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Raphite1 on February 20, 2012, 01:01:21 pm
Not yet.  Smaller creatures don't last long enough in the target chamber for me to even get off enough shots at them - they get pushed through the wall grates and air-drown.  I may redesign it with a second layer of grates to try and keep fish inside.

I *think* that a second layer of grates will do the trick. I seem to remember it being a solution to keeping corpses in the right place in some drowning traps I made back in 40d.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Musashi on February 20, 2012, 02:15:12 pm
Musashi has been ecstatic lately. She is a fervent worshiper of Sphalerite.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 20, 2012, 08:21:38 pm
Attempt #2:

Rebuilt the trap chamber with two rows of grates.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have also prepared a selection of copper and steel ballista arrows.  Let's see how well this works.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Better, the ballista arrows are actually killing their targets sometimes.  The dual rows of grates make it less likely that fish will escape, but they're not perfect.  One bluefish managed to get through both grates and air-drowned anyway.

Now I'll drain the water and try it with whales again.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 20, 2012, 08:38:50 pm
I don't know how I feel about ballista arrows that can't pierce.

Was this intended?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 20, 2012, 08:39:57 pm
I don't know how I feel about ballista arrows that can't pierce.

Was this intended?
It might be to prevent them from becoming stuck in the wound.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: SirAaronIII on February 20, 2012, 08:40:15 pm
Ooh, this should be good. All I can say is "ingenious".
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 20, 2012, 09:27:58 pm
Now shooting metal ballista arrows at whales...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's starting to look like not even a steel ballista bolt to the head will actually kill a whale.  I don't know if this is a testament to how tough whales are, or how useless ballista are as a weapon.

Also, whales can stand up.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: simonthedwarf on February 20, 2012, 09:31:02 pm
Do you mind sharing the save? I want to fiddle with your godwork.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 20, 2012, 09:36:16 pm
Here you go:

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5632

Mind the dozens of unlabeled levers and strange creatures in cages, I didn't design this place to be easy for anyone but me to operate safely.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Mapleguy555 on February 20, 2012, 09:56:37 pm
Now shooting metal ballista arrows at whales...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's starting to look like not even a steel ballista bolt to the head will actually kill a whale.  I don't know if this is a testament to how tough whales are, or how useless ballista are as a weapon.

Also, whales can stand up.

Also, whales can stand up.

Whales can stand up.

Stand up.

T-the utter blasphemy!!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sus on February 20, 2012, 10:06:30 pm
Stand up.

T-the utter blasphemy!!
On a related note:
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/28/26/49/1282649_large.jpg)
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Mapleguy555 on February 20, 2012, 10:07:43 pm
Stand up.

T-the utter blasphemy!!
On a related note:
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/28/26/49/1282649_large.jpg)

...
BLASPHEMAGMAAAAAAA
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 20, 2012, 10:20:54 pm
I don't know how I feel about ballista arrows that can't pierce.

Was this intended?
It might be to prevent them from becoming stuck in the wound.
I don't understand how that could be anything but epic.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 20, 2012, 10:24:12 pm
Here you go:

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5632

Mind the dozens of unlabeled levers and strange creatures in cages, I didn't design this place to be easy for anyone but me to operate safely.
This alone is going to be hilarious, but the fact that you also left a big red button next to a sharktopus just makes this delicious.

I expect someone to open that cage.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Nan on February 20, 2012, 11:27:00 pm
I try to tell myself that they're not real whales  :'(.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: JoshBrickstien on February 20, 2012, 11:44:50 pm
I suppose you should try silver next then, for the extra blunt force, since they seem to work similarly to crossbow bolts in that density matters more than sharpness. Makes me curious about slade ballista bolts.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Brisk on February 20, 2012, 11:54:51 pm
You, sir, deserve my socks.

Is this behavior intended? Is it possible to rewrite the raws so that harpoons can kill a whale?

Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 21, 2012, 12:11:31 am
This cannot be modded.  Ballistae are hardcoded.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Mitchewawa on February 21, 2012, 03:45:40 am
Is it possible for vampires to fire a ballista whilst both are underwater?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Brightgalrs on February 21, 2012, 04:23:17 am
Is it possible to fire a ballista arrows through magma using the technique you used to keep the water in position? !!Ballista arrow!!?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sus on February 21, 2012, 04:30:59 am
Is it possible to fire a ballista arrows through magma using the technique you used to keep the water in position? !!Ballista arrow!!?
This has to be tested! For great jus‼Science‼!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dirty foot on February 21, 2012, 04:39:50 am
Can you make ballista arrows out of lignite?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Gamerlord on February 21, 2012, 04:41:04 am
Awesome! Now use GCS in conjunction with the ballistae to immobilise and then pulverise

if thats possible
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: dragoncurse on February 21, 2012, 04:46:13 am
This seems to be a part 2 of Dwarven Aquatic Science.
The part 1 would be the Mermaid farm.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Gamerlord on February 21, 2012, 04:47:06 am
This seems to be a part 2 of Dwarven Aquatic Science.
The part 1 would be the Mermaid farm.

whay about that sea serpent farm?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Nan on February 21, 2012, 04:49:28 am
This cannot be modded.  Ballistae are hardcoded.

Maybe Ballistae can't be modded to be more deadly, but whales can be modded to be more killable :D.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: rhesusmacabre on February 21, 2012, 04:51:59 am
Great work Sphalerite! Is there any reason why the wallgrates couldn't be built further back, nearer to or directly where the pumps are taking the water from? This would prevent them from being completely submerged, and so hopefully confine the creatures.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 21, 2012, 09:02:36 am
I suppose you should try silver next then, for the extra blunt force, since they seem to work similarly to crossbow bolts in that density matters more than sharpness. Makes me curious about slade ballista bolts.

Tricky.  I don't think there is any silver ore on this site.  I'll have to look around and see if I can find any.  Alternately, I have modded in a few experimental ultra-dense metals which I might be able to make instead.

Is it possible for vampires to fire a ballista whilst both are underwater?

I'd have to make a completely new fortress to test that, this one was built in 31.25.  I suspect the answer is no, buildings which are underwater can't be used even if you mod the dwarf to not have to breathe.

Is it possible to fire a ballista arrows through magma using the technique you used to keep the water in position? !!Ballista arrow!!?

Interesting question.  I think I can test that in this fortress, I'll just need to build a lot of magma-safe pumps.

Great work Sphalerite! Is there any reason why the wallgrates couldn't be built further back, nearer to or directly where the pumps are taking the water from? This would prevent them from being completely submerged, and so hopefully confine the creatures.

I suspect that those wouldn't help.  Fortifications become useless when completely submerged.  With grates it's moving water which makes them not work, any water at a fluctuating level less than 7/7 has a chance to push a creature through the grate.  Adding grates where the water is already moving doesn't seem to do much.  Maybe a third layer of grates further back in where the water is almost always 7/7 would help instead.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Kogut on February 21, 2012, 09:23:02 am
Stand up.

T-the utter blasphemy!!
On a related note:
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/28/26/49/1282649_large.jpg)

...
BLASPHEMAGMAAAAAAA

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5364
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Maldevious on February 21, 2012, 09:40:58 am
Well done. Hope you get one of them eventually.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Lagslayer on February 21, 2012, 09:55:55 am
Dwarven science at it's finest. Well done, Sphalerite McAhab.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 23, 2012, 08:51:49 am
It turns out I did have a fair amount of silver ore on site after all, so I have built a batch of silver ballista arrows.  First I'll try firing them at a group of smaller targets.

The first arrow fires is very promising...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's two fish killed by a single ballista arrow.  Admittedly, they were small fish.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still fairly effective against larger fish.  Unfortunately, I'm still loosing as many fish to air-drowning as to ballista arrow hits.  Two wall grates in a row just isn't enough to stop fish from being pushed through by moving water.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, testing silver ballista arrows against whales.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still not lethal, but at least they're bruising internal organs now.  This confirms the theory that ballista arrow damage is dependent on density, and that silver is the best material for ballista arrows in the default game.

My copy of DF has several heavier metals that can be made (rose gold, thorium, uranium, wolfram, etc) but this embark site doesn't have the required raw materials to make any of them.  I'll have to try something different next.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 23, 2012, 10:25:34 am
Open the map edge briefly to allow traders and produce a few heavy metal bolts?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 23, 2012, 10:30:18 am
I could test rose gold easily enough that way.  The other exotic metals in this mod are a royal pain to make, involving dozens of steps and many different raw materials, and half a dozen workshops which themselves require exotic materials to make.  Don't know if I'll bother.

I have something else I want to test next, involving magma.

I also want to try and make a fortress that actually uses ballista firing silver ballista arrows as a siege defense now.  Can't do that at this site, the location means it never gets sieges even if I open the map edge.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: SirAaronIII on February 23, 2012, 10:33:01 am
You could always cheat and change some reactions to give you free metals... but that's not fun.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 23, 2012, 10:51:41 am
You could alter a reaction and cheat in metals, though we have confirmed that density = damage so further proof of "slade ballistae bolts" wouldn't actually prove anything.  However, any test involving magma is a good test, and I encourage you on this path of action.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Di on February 23, 2012, 11:07:16 am
Isn't it possible to change one of available metals so it represents one more potent?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: zubb2 on February 23, 2012, 12:08:13 pm
The Board of Fortresses approves.

Expect a shipment of wool socks to keep ye warm on that ocean, unless its a hot ocean then you can just put them in the "sock room" with the rest.


P.S.
The whales were asking for it.
Breathing air AND being a fish,what?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Noodz on February 23, 2012, 01:59:11 pm
I think few players contributed so much to ‼science‼ as sphalerite. He truly deserves the dwarven equivalent of the Nobel.

Also, what is this ‼well‼ thing? I think i missed this thread.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 23, 2012, 02:06:47 pm
The ‼Well‼ was a dwarven invention of Sphalerite's  The idea basically goes "I like my dwarves clean, but the tiles near the well are always so dirty!  I know, I'll set the well on fire!"  So he did.  And dwarves died.  Check my sig, it's nestled in there.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 23, 2012, 09:08:23 pm
Next test:  Firing through magma!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have created a second liquid-wall setup, using another pair of screw pumps.  This one contains magma!  In theory, the bolts fired by the ballista should catch on fire or something while they pass through the magma, right?

I admit I completely cheated to make the magma, using DFhack to add the magma in.  I have reached the magma sea, and have a perfectly working magma force setup over a magma pipe, but the magma in this embark is just silly far down.  I decided to skip a week of work by using dfliquids instead of building a hundred-pump pump stack.  Meh.

The setup is just the same as the previous one, with a wall of pumps (these ones made from green glass) on each side of the liquid wall, pumping the magma back onto itself to keep it from flowing out.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First, since I already have them set up and ready to go, I'll fire a silver bolt through the magma.  It should melt or something, right?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Huh.  Nothing unusual result.  My siege operator decided to fire a steel arrow through the magma next.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nothing unusual happened there, not that we'd expect it to.  Ok, time to get serious.  Forbid all metal arrows, fire some wooden ballista bolts through the magma.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Half a dozen wooden ballista arrows fired through the magma, not a one of them caught on fire.  And it's not that the water is putting the fire out, I'm pausing the game and examining each shot before it hits the water wall.

As an additional check, I dug up some graphite and set up a catapult.  Let's see if we can get burning graphite boulders flying through the air.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nothing.  A dozen graphite boulders fired through the magma, none of them caught on fire.  None of them hit any of the whales, either.  That was disappointing.

I'd try and figure out a way to set the ballista bolts or graphite boulders on fire before firing them, but I suspect the siege operator would either refuse to use burning ammunition, or bleed out in the process of trying to fire them.  Still something I might test.

Save has been updated, for anyone who wants to do their own experiments.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5632
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: MrShovelFace on February 23, 2012, 09:39:40 pm
have you attempted the use of a fire based FB?
regular marksdorfs?
DRAGONS?!?!?!
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 23, 2012, 09:45:04 pm
I did try stationing a marksdwarf near the whales.  It was difficult to get him to actually shoot at them.  Ordering him to kill on of them resulted in his firing a few bolts which missed completely before wandering off complaining 'can't follow orders'.  Just having him stand near resulted in nothing at all happening.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: MrShovelFace on February 23, 2012, 09:46:19 pm
designate a target for target practice across the pond

also the use of a fire based fb will pull water into your harbour at a rediculous rate that not even 1000 nuclear powered pumps could attain



btw this is such an awesome experiment im so jelly i never thought of it
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: NW_Kohaku on February 23, 2012, 09:50:08 pm
Why can't you just mod silver in your savegame raws to have 10 times the density?
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Sphalerite on February 23, 2012, 09:53:14 pm
I could, but I'm not sure what the point would be.  I've accomplished what I set out to do with this fortress, and verified the relationship of more density meaning more damage.
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: slowpokez on February 29, 2012, 12:09:36 pm
The ‼Well‼ was a dwarven invention of Sphalerite's  The idea basically goes "I like my dwarves clean, but the tiles near the well are always so dirty!  I know, I'll set the well on fire!"  So he did.  And dwarves died.  Check my sig, it's nestled in there.
Thx alot I've been looking for that post quite some time now ;D
Title: Re: Oceanshoots: Hunting whales with ballistae
Post by: Girlinhat on February 29, 2012, 12:29:09 pm
Next idea: construct the ballista out of magma-safe material.  Mod a wood of your choice to be similar to plump helmet men in structure - that being, will catch fire but will never burn - then bathe the area in magma.  Once properly alight, have a fresh, expendable siege operator fire the currently flaming bolt.