Most mods in most games I've tried is just bucketfuls of snazzy-sounding but shallow junk piled onto the base game with not much thought into how well it meshes with the various aspects of the game.You would be surprised how well Total Conversion work in DF. ;)
I've played Masterwork a few times. It certainly adds a ton of content, and the content is very well-done. I don't really like the high-magic setting, though; it just doesn't seem right for a dwarven fortress.Magic is optional. One click on a button, and no more magic altars or magic dwarves. But yes, this one and blackpowder were among the higher-ranking complaints of "out of place in DF" I have gotten over the years. I might outsource the magic to another race, and remove it from dwarves completely, in future updates.
Just got into masterwork, and I enjoy it a lot so far. Entirely for the change that comes from plaiyng a different race every game.That is good to know. If I had to guess I'd say that at least 1/3 of the people play dwarves exclusively.
I don't see any aim to MW, just a bunch of neat stuff in a pretty box.
- DFHack dependancy. In any game I play, mainstream or indy, I somewhat dislike modding that depends on external code. External content is fine. I suppose it would be OK if things would not break horribly in the absence of DFHack. It is a handy utility. Therapist-like things that run and then are gone are OK. RAW-only modders need some love and attention, and they have limits. People who can handle coding or robust scripting can really raise the bar and leave the others behind.
- All encompassing absorbing mod. Eater of small mods. I am a veteran of the Neverwinter Nights modding community, up until the implementation of the "Community Expansion Pack", a good description of which is here: http://www.neverwinternights.info/cep.htm . It was too large for my internet connection at the time, and quickly became nonoptional. You just had to download everything and then only use the parts that you actually wanted. Bloaty AND created this atmosphere in the community where people would use it and nothing else. Without any malice or conscious effort, it killed creativity that was not dedicated to its enhancement.
I'm honestly surprised I'm hearing so much negativity here. o.O Maybe General Discussion doesn't have much of the Masterwork crowd?MDF is still on 34.11, and does include DF Rand Creatures. ;) I need to wait for dfhack before I can update.
That said, Meph - you did remove my DF Rand Creatures from the new version, right? It doesn't play well (or at all) with 40.xx - not yet.
I'm not disparaging the work you've done. I'm not criticizing orcs or succubi themselves. I'm simply arguing that they don't belong to a mod whose original purpose was to expand the game while preserving its look-and-feel. Adding features that are missing like diseases is cool, but I don't think succubi are missing to everyone. Keep non-necessary features to a separate mod for people into that sort of thing, it'll make the mod lighter and overall less bloated.But Succubi, like any other playable race, have no influence on Dwarf Mode, in addition to being optional. ???
Second thing - lack of upstream Linux version.Yeah, that too. I think I stopped playing the mod because I didn't feel like booting back to windows for the sole purpose of playing MDF.
Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word in ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope in the Appendices to Vol. III to be able to include a note 'On translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may be made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch', all the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise equivalents exist in English.
There are no songs or stories preserved about Elves or Dwarfs in ancient English, and little enough in any other Germanic language. Words, a few names, that is about all. I do not recall any Dwarf or Elf that plays an actual pan in any story save Andvari in the Norse versions of the Nibelung matter. There is no story attached to the name Eikinskjaldi, save the one that I invented for Thorin Oakenshield. As far as old English goes 'dwarf' (dweorg) is a mere gloss for nanus, or the name of convulsions and recurrent fevers; and 'elf' we should suppose to be associated only with rheumatism, toothache and nightmares, if it were not for the occurrence of aelfsciene 'elven-fair' applied to Sarah and Judith!, and a few glosses such as dryades, wuduelfen. In all Old English poetry 'elves' (ylte) occurs once only, in Beowulf, associated with trolls, giants, and the Undead, as the accursed offspring of Cain. The gap between that and, say, Elrond or Galadriel is not bridged by learning.
I think Tolkien did more to invent, or at least re-invent, Elves and Dwarves than people realize too, which as a scholar he came to regret. From the "Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien" collection;
I too am amazed that more people don't know about Masterwork - IMHO it's one of the best mods for any game ever. It's balanced, coherent, has a ton of content, modular, and quite bug-free. What more could you want? =D
My point is, there's much more out there than Masterwork, and it doesn't really get enough attention.
SI've been meaning to try the Homestuck mod, but the universe isn't really my cup of tea.
To be perfectly honest though I'd say this post is a bit pointless. Since it's a mod and obviously a labor of love on your part Meph, it shouldn't matter so much what others think or what this or the reddit community thinks, whether is an overpositive echo chamber, or a mudslinging hate rally. What matters is what you think about what you've done and how you like it. If others do, that's a bonus, if not, well, there's no wrong opinion on this matter.
I too am amazed that more people don't know about Masterwork - IMHO it's one of the best mods for any game ever. It's balanced, coherent, has a ton of content, modular, and quite bug-free. What more could you want? =D
It's not that balanced, pretty damn incoherent, I'll give you those two, and the fact that my stuff is used in it tells me that that last one is an outright lie.
Makes dwarf fortress playable. Vanilla is too easy/repetitive.
Along with the many features like seeing items at different z-levels, images of items on the ground like a picture of an axe for an axe, etc..
Didn't know that, but I still thank someone for grouping all awesome features into one package instead of downloading/installing everything individually.This is one of the best characteristics of Masterwork.
Maybe for some start-ups with unique concepts, there could be a post from the largely known modders with basically a 'Hey, check out this interesting thing.' Maybe only a fragment will look at it, and only a fragment of those might stick around, but it would give the smaller modders a boost of confidence that a fair amount people are actually interested in the mod, which would drive them on to continue building it up, maybe even to the point their mod could be easily recognized.
This is not Masterwork. This is Text Will Be Text, a DFHack plugin. Meph did not develop this. He was not involved. He most likely doesn't know how it works (based on his insistence of not being a programmer). It is not Masterwork, it's something that it grabbed and ate and put into the settings without a single word as to what it actually is except on the very surface. The very fact that you think that this is somehow something Masterwork does is the exact reason why I dislike it so much.
This is not Masterwork. This is Text Will Be Text, a DFHack plugin. Meph did not develop this. He was not involved. He most likely doesn't know how it works (based on his insistence of not being a programmer). It is not Masterwork, it's something that it grabbed and ate and put into the settings without a single word as to what it actually is except on the very surface. The very fact that you think that this is somehow something Masterwork does is the exact reason why I dislike it so much.
Masterwork smoothly integrates the best of everything in the DF community. Nothing else does that nearly as cleanly. If anyone is interested in all the moving parts under the hood, they can poke around and look at the changelog and credits - it's all there. Credit is given where due.
Dwarf Fortress has no such thing, and it could be worse because we're all too nice to each other to refuse permission to include stuff. This is why I've endeavored to create a modpack. Partially because it's a fun thing to do, partially because I want an excuse to make a bunch of small mods instead of ever making one big one ever again, and the rest because Masterwork is snowballing out of control and eating the rest of the mod community whole.
I can think of two major exceptions to the Masterwork sucks everything up trend:Dwarf Fortress has no such thing, and it could be worse because we're all too nice to each other to refuse permission to include stuff. This is why I've endeavored to create a modpack. Partially because it's a fun thing to do, partially because I want an excuse to make a bunch of small mods instead of ever making one big one ever again, and the rest because Masterwork is snowballing out of control and eating the rest of the mod community whole.
...Masterwork is replicating the rise of monopolies...
In the DF modding community, each mod is analogous to a small business with players being customers. Masterwork is taking those businesses and turning them into a monopoly. The only way we dissolved those was by courts. This does not bode well for the economy that is the DF modding community if it winds up going as far as monopolies did.
Total conversion mods. As in Masterwork beats out other mods for general generic fantasy expansion to vanilla DF, but it doesn't out compete all the crossover mods right?
And really, is this such a bad trend if it results in the mods being more usable and enjoyable to the average player. Keep track of all the utilities can be confusing at times. I really appreciate having the all available through one download and one interface (I like the starter pack for this reason also). It seems like the only thing to address is making sure that credit is given clearly and fairly.
For example, the latest release of Legend of Forlorn Realms, with the Ironhand graphics preinstalled, is at 1,354 downloads and 2,335 views, last updated on Dec 02, 2013. Masterwork's latest version, on the DFFD mirror (one of two, both of which barely noticeable compared to the large letters of the main branch) has 298 downloads and 690 views, and it was updated on Aug 11, 2014. That's about 1/5 the downloads, 1/3 the views, in 1/51 of the time on just a single mirror. As I said, that is just one of the mirrors. Who knows how many downloads there are on the other and the main download.
This is not Masterwork. This is Text Will Be Text, a DFHack plugin. Meph did not develop this. He was not involved. He most likely doesn't know how it works (based on his insistence of not being a programmer). It is not Masterwork, it's something that it grabbed and ate and put into the settings without a single word as to what it actually is except on the very surface. The very fact that you think that this is somehow something Masterwork does is the exact reason why I dislike it so much.Incidentally that's one of the reasons I play the mod sometimes, even though I turn off many features. As far as I know he's the only one who took the time of putting all the newest dfhackery features into one single mod (and respecting compatibility), and for that I give him credit because having to fetch every little thing that isn't included in the main repo really does get old.
The complaint is less "this mod is too good, nerf plox!" than it is "most everything good gets absorbed by this mod sooner or later, and it chokes out other things."But absorbing other things is good in some ways. The bay12 community does an amazing job at filling the obvious missing features in DF due to its decentralized nature - there'll always be someone ready to come up with something new after a while. However, due to its very decentralized nature, third-party content management gets really clunky after a while. This is not a criticism, only a comparison of order and chaos, so to speak - both have their upsides and drawbacks.
...Masterwork is replicating the rise of monopolies...The reason small businesses can't keep up with big monopolies is because they don't have the power, workforce and such to reach as wide an audience as big monopolies do. This is different here, because MW is maintained by one guy, like literally every other project on bay12 save for dfhackery. Anyone can start their own all-encompassing pack that isn't MW if they take the time to do it (which is incidentally what PeridexisErrant does).
In the DF modding community, each mod is analogous to a small business with players being customers. Masterwork is taking those businesses and turning them into a monopoly. The only way we dissolved those was by courts. This does not bode well for the economy that is the DF modding community if it winds up going as far as monopolies did.
Slow down there Putnam, you know exactly that I made the 3 tilesets. Twbt allows me to add things that way, but I wrote the how-to on itemgraphics, made the first item sprites, made the vanilla override files that that Lnp/start pack now uses, and Masterwork is still the only mod using it. Yes, I did not write that plugin, but without my work the StarterPack wouldnt have item graphics either. I also released a vanilla version with them... saying that I did no work is a bit wrong.Along with the many features like seeing items at different z-levels, images of items on the ground like a picture of an axe for an axe, etc..
This is not Masterwork. This is Text Will Be Text, a DFHack plugin. Meph did not develop this. He was not involved. He most likely doesn't know how it works (based on his insistence of not being a programmer). It is not Masterwork, it's something that it grabbed and ate and put into the settings without a single word as to what it actually is except on the very surface. The very fact that you think that this is somehow something Masterwork does is the exact reason why I dislike it so much.
About the MDF smothers the community: It might have an effect. But what could I do to stop that? Stop mod developement?
If there is a big modpack, it will be the same. People wouldnt download individual minor mods, instead take "Putnams Mod Startr Pack", and say the same things about it... for example that it has item graphics and multizlevel view... Disregarding who the real author is, even if he is listed in the credits.
I feel a lot of people are criticizing the Masterwork philosophy (have everything cool into one mod) which in my opinion is a good thing and should even be a standard - the problem is that sometimes it doesn't keep up with that philosophy and not everything is cool to my tastes.
Granted, I doubt Meph would blatantly steal work, but I worry about the precedents being set by MW, and what I've seen in other, arguably less sensible, communities.
stuff
If such a huge amount of Masterwork is optional, why is it even all bundled together to begin with?
Why bother creating something if your creation, if bad, attracts few-to-no users, and if good, is merely absorbed into Masterwork?
When the very real possibility of having your creation absorbed against your wishes into this blob is constantly present...
How long until there are just a handful of big mods that don't work with each other?
How long until people have to release their mods quietly so as to keep them out of the large modpacks?
How long until DFHack scripts stagnate due to conflicts over ownership and maintenance?
If I make a tool, I know how this tool works, and I can use it to make other tools that all work together.
If I borrow a bunch of tools from different people, I have to rig everything else together based on this non-standard group of tools which are not mine and which I do not understand.
Perhaps the largest issue with MW simply is Meph putting every little neat thing he sees into his pretty box.
I've been turned off of masterwork most by the need for a launcher to manage all the various components that don't all make sense, the necessity of extensive documentation which isn't effectively provided, the sheer number of component parts and the standardized materials system. You can't opt-out of that. But what if you want to? Then don't play masterwork, apparently. ??
How do you even keep mods from other modders that you include up to date and compatible?
Its also remained unclear to me; just how friendly is masterwork's raw structure towards introducing other mods which rely on the vanilla raw structures? Are all the normal materials, tissues, interaction templates and inorganics still there or would every other mod need to be made compatible with masterwork?
Every mod needs to be made compatible. I completely gave up on making a race for Masterwork due entirely to the general (ironic) bloatedness of the raws.
Well, if it's bad, then it shouldn't attract users in the first place... And if it's good, why wouldn't you want it included as an option in an easy-to-use collection of similarly good things?
You have built up a lore around it, and don't want it to be with things that would mess up that lore.
So then don't include it /problemsolved
But this changes from person to person? Wouldn't being able to easily change the content in the game be towards that end? (This is the point of Masterwork...)So then don't include it /problemsolved
Some people enjoy having an internally consistent to their mods. Also, that's just one example, another is that they want their work to shine on its own.
What is the problem?
I think that the point here is that if a mod does something unique and interesting, MW tends to quickly recreate that effect within itself, thereby decreasing the unique mods attraction to prospective players. But that is just my read of it.
The phrasing you had used made it sound as if it had to be in Masterwork, rather than it being the choice the creator.
I think that the point here is that if a mod does something unique and interesting, MW tends to quickly recreate that effect within itself, thereby decreasing the unique mods attraction to prospective players.
Right, I get it (ed: i think. sorry if somehow i'm missing the point?...). So then the author should just ask the curator of big mod pack to not use this contribution, and the curator of big mod pack should respect that wish. What is the problem?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/AJC46/wat_zps0c81b8ec.jpg)
i for one find it very amusing.
I don't think Meph would include something against one's wishes.Strongly agreed with this - he came to me directly and asked if I would permit him to use my utility before he put it in.
Vanilla DF vs. Masterwork. Please dont. Its not a contest, its not "versus", its not a Toady vs. Meph Deathmatch. I have seen discussions about this, and they never lead to anything, nor are they pretty.
The lack of documentation has been named several times... I might have to remind everyone that Toady One does not do one at all. The community does write the wiki. I have to mod and write documentation, because the MDF users are not as good as the vanilla users when it comes to updating wikis. Partly because I update more frequently I guess.
Also that you take donations leaves a very yucky taste in my mouth.
Biggest issue is that as things stand, MDF seems to be less stable than even 40.0x vanilla, and runs slower thanks to terrible loading times.Loadind and saving times, as well as worldgen are slower, but ingame FPS are higher. I personally run DF on a SSD and not a HDD, so save/load times are almost instantly. It takes longer than vanilla, because there are more files to copy into the save folders.
I am not the only modder that accepts donations. ;) Compared to Toadys influx of donations, mine are almost not noticeable. August for example I got one donation over 25$. Generally hovering between 0 and 100$ a month, only exceptions were the two fundraisers, which worked similar to Rainseekers Animal Sponsoring Drive for vanilla Df. People vote on their favourite topic and I worked a month on those topics each.
I don't have a problem with people asking for money for the work they are doing, but I don't want to become entangled with anybody financially. So I'd prefer not to receive any money or have Bay 12 be involved with any of the logistics. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131977.msg4703302#msg4703302)
What is it that you are seeking here?It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.
However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.Not easy for me at all.
In fact as a new to the forums lurker all I get from reading this thread is that a couple of people are seemingly determined to derail the thread for the sole purpose of keeping Masterworks in it's box ... presumably because it's unclean.
What is it that you are seeking here?It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.Not easy for me at all.
In fact as a new to the forums lurker all I get from reading this thread is that a couple of people are seemingly determined to derail the thread for the sole purpose of keeping Masterworks in it's box ... presumably because it's unclean.
I downloaded Masterworks when I first tried DF, didn't like it was like being hit in the face by a baseball bat with no explanation as to who or why I was being hit. But given the tone of the posts from a number of people in this thread I'm determined to give it a second chance because anything that garners this much disgust is always worthy of a second look.
What is it that you are seeking here?It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.Not easy for me at all.
/snip
What is it that you are seeking here?It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.Not easy for me at all.
/snip
Something seems wrong about holding a fundraiser for yourself for a mod for a game where the creator of that game lives off donations. I guess it comes from an odd sort of love for DF; from passion and support for Toady and his life's work.
That's the best way I can describe the "yucky taste" - perhaps it isn't easy to understand, but I'd argue that the passion is clear.
Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me. If I put out a graphic set and asked for feedback from ASCII users that would be confusing, right? Am I going to convince them to convert? What would be the point?
Regardless, whether you guys are using masterwork or not or ASCII or graphic sets - Strike the Earth! ;]
Well, if I made a tile set, and wanted to find out what was thought of it, I would not only ask my users, but go to those still using ansi/other tile sets to find out if they've tried mine. And why, if they have, they aren't using it. It's a means to provide feedback that might lead to improvement. Or at least that is my best guess on what is being done with this thread.
Thats why I made this thread. I want to know what Non-MDF-players think. Anything goes, praise or criticise away. Rant about it if you like. Negative feedback is still feedback, as long as it doesnt border on insults. ;) And ask what you like. Anything you might want to know about the project or me.Emphasis mine.
Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me. If I put out a graphic set and asked for feedback from ASCII users that would be confusing, right? Am I going to convince them to convert? What would be the point?
do understand what you are saying Devstorm - but the whole "Non-MDF-players" means people like me - who just don't play it; have no interest in playing it. So why care what I think about it?It includes people like you and people that don't play because of other reasons, that Meph may be able to alleviate by changing things (thus getting them more interested).
I do think that having one mod dominate the landscape is not good for the community, but I'm not sure what can really be done about it. I think the creating a launcher that lets you combine mods seamlessly and easily is the best bet for making it a more competitive marketplace.
That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger. One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.
That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger. One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.As for people attributing stuff to Masterwork, I've seen it happen a grand total of two times - and there's been a lot of noise about either instance. We get it, MW is not DFHack; it's time to move on.
Mods being homogenized is a good thing.
That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger. One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.
Mods being homogenized is a good thing. There are people actively at work right now trying to come up with a standard way of making and combining mods; no one wants to sort through a bunch of raws because of one careless modder. As for people attributing stuff to Masterwork, I've seen it happen a grand total of two times - and there's been a lot of noise about either instance. We get it, MW is not DFHack; it's time to move on.
If someone is jealous of Masterwork, I would expect them to come up with all kinds of weak-sauce reasons to complain about it. I think the onus is on folks who complain at things like MW, without constructively working on solutions, to demonstrate that they aren't just yowling out of jealousy :D
This is simply equivocation. Homogenized as you're describing it is in terms of syntax. Homogenized as corrosivechains is describing it is in terms of it all becoming one big mod called Masterwork.
I was comparing the amount of donations to make it clear that MDF is not hurting Toadys income, since I assumed that this was meant with the comments towards a yucky taste. I would also like to remind everyone that accepting donations is not the same as taking money for something. Even Dwarf Therapist, a tool used by almost everyone has a donate button.
There are 4 types of people; those that like you for the right reasons, like you for the wrong reasons, dislike you for the wrong reasons, and dislike you for the right reasons. Only the last group really matters. -Mangled quote by somebody whom I don't know the name of.
That was more aimed at the "Why bother asking people who don't play Masterwork" question. I think disliking the fundraisers on Toady's site is not unreasonable, but I kind of get a feeling that it is almost as much making sure people actually want it rather then trying to get cash money. He certainly doesn't set a overly high bar to hit for them.There are 4 types of people; those that like you for the right reasons, like you for the wrong reasons, dislike you for the wrong reasons, and dislike you for the right reasons. Only the last group really matters. -Mangled quote by somebody whom I don't know the name of.It's difficult for me to judge whether disliking your fundraisers is for the wrong reasons or if disliking your fundraisers is for the right reasons. As I mentioned previously, the feeling is fueled by passion and I am not sure it is something I can adequately convey to someone who doesn't feel the same way.
The point is that Toady condones what Meph is doing (he even semi-supports it in a way since he added a special forum for MW) so there's no need to have a yucky taste for someone else. And to be honest, I don't think the total amount of MW donations (~$2000 I think, aka ~€1500 in Europe which is barely above minimum wage in most countries) actually harmed Toady's income.
The MW forum was because it was asked for, same as the rest of the modding subforums.
While I don't appreciate you telling me how I should feel, how is any of what you said correlative?Uh, not sure what you mean. Feel free to feel however you feel you should feel.
I feel you're being disingenuous when you say you feel he's free to feel however he feels he should feel. I feel you really feel he should feel the way you feel he should feel. That's just how I feel though.
I feel you're being disingenuous when you say you feel he's free to feel however he feels he should feel. I feel you really feel he should feel the way you feel he should feel. That's just how I feel though.Difficult to judge sarcasm on the internet. :)
"Why bother asking people who don't play Masterwork"Obviously to figure out why, and change it. ;) Of course I cant affect things like "I dont like mods" or "I dont like additions that are no done by Toady when it comes to lore", but with "its overwhelming", or "I wish I could set it to vanilla with the launcher" and similar reports, I can work with.
dudlol:Likes it, different races are good, because of their different playstyle.Thank you. I made sure that each included race plays completely different from dwarves, which means that 7 included races will give you 1 dwarves+extras and 6 total conversions. Good that this is being noticed. :)
Elephant Parade: High-magic doesnt fit DF.I hear that a lot, which is the reason that magic and mage-castes are optional. Its a personal opinion, some people like it, others dislike it. Since all things magical can be removed in the launcher, this should be no issue. If I would remove high-magic in general, I would get requests to mod in high-magic, for those that like it.
Tryble: Knows old mod versions. Dislikes "random junk of stuff added by random person", explained by "I'm just the kind of guy who's naturally hostile to significant mods in general." Likes standardized materials.Obviously Accelerated DF or Putnams Fantastic DF are more geared towards you. Otherwise I can say that I havent added random junk in a long time. The first year I did MDF, yes, because I was new. But since 2 years at least I do have a pretty clear system.
Paphi: Not a fan, dislikes standardized materials.Standardized materials were one of the first features, aimed at user friendliness and FPS improvements. Its a very polarized topic, either people love it or hate it. Its not optional, because the materials themselves are the basis for most reactions, so rewriting this is rather complex. It can be done, but hasnt been requested often.
Vherid: Likes/Dislikes different versions of the mod, doesnt like new non-df lore additions, says mod is bloated. (too many features)Here we start with the bloated/feature-creep point, as well as DF lore vs. Non-DF lore. Writing a major mod for any game makes it hard to stick to its limited source material. When you reach this limit, you can either stop, or add original content they invent themselves, or use already popular content that is well established, e.g. crossovers. I try to do all three. All vanilla content is still there, so the source lore still exists. Then I freely invent things myself, or import tropes from Bay12, Warhammer, Warcraft, Lord of the Rings, books and movies... a mod as large as MDF can not just be vanilla DF lore. It automatically developes its own lore. Liking or disliking this is of course a personal matter, although it surprises me to hear it from you vherid, since you wanted to write a egyptian civ for MDF, and usually work on First/Second Worldwar soviet-style themes and mods. Clearly not DF lore. That leads me to the assumption (please correct me if I am wrong) that you dont like adding new non-DF lore in itself, but that specific lore I chose (warhammer/lotr), instead of specific lore you like. :P
Urist Da Vinci: Dislikes dfhack dependancy, Mods that use launchers (any game, mainstream or indy), additions of non-df lore in terms of drow/dark elves.I cant really say much about the dfhack dependancy, as it allows groundbreaking features. It would be insane not to use it. Surprised to hear that as a point from you, since you write custom scripts for dfhack yourself, and use it to improve vanilla (for example removing those blood/extract barrels from embark/caravans).
weegth: Likes most additions, but the plethora of buildings, which add too many options. Would like the ability in the GUI to remove even more mod-features, to bring the mod closer to vanilla.Bloat criticism #2. The rest connects to it, more GUI options to disable features obviously reduces bloat, and brings the mod closer to vanilla.
Nopenope: Likes lots of additions, dislikes new pets (too complicated to learn), directly mentioning Armok ingame, too many non-toady-one races, that seem superficial/similar. New metals, especially fantasy metals, likes realism more than gamey additions. Same for creatures, RL animals ok, fantastic/story monsters should be rare. Also dislikes standardized materials, because its too gamey, as well as bay12 lore in the game itself (like evil carps). Likes collection of all the dfhack scripts.The new pets are actually a mod by wannabehero. He (and I too) felt that normal human RL animals dont fit dwarves that live under mountains, and Toady One hasnt quite finished a proper animal farming system (animals dont eat/drink, except grazers that need grass, but cant be fed indoors in a stable for example). The new pets are designed to be more subterrenean in nature. The vanilla pets, realistic farm animals, are part of the human civ, since RL animals domesticated by humans should also be that way in the game.
Zanzetkuken The Great: Meta-discussion, dislikes dfhack dependancy and "one mod to rule them all"-effect.Not much to say here, since there is no feedback about the mod itself.
InsanityIncarnate: Never played it, wont start because too many features look intimidating.Bloat criticism #3. Or at least "mod too large".
Putnam: Mostly meta-discussion about "one mod to rule them all"-effect, community falsely accrediting me for included features written by other people, and (a wild guess by me) the unsorted state of the Raws themselves.Again, not much to say at this point, as there wasnt much feedback about the mod itself. But I know that Putnam doesnt play it because its too game-oriented and not simulation-oriented. The raws I have cleaned up a lot since his last foray into them. They are still more convoluted than the raws of other mods though, partly because several authors add features and the launcher toggles with using extra metatags. And its size. ^^ But from all the people that criticise the side-effects of MDF, Putnam is the only person to actively do something to improve the situation, work on the Mod Starter Pack idea, posts on reddit about other mods, converts old mods to new version, to save them from becoming outdated... He should be an example to all the others that contributed to what I call meta-discussion, to all that heated discussion about one-mod-to-rule-them-all and other sideeffects. And while doing that, he still answers questions of MDF users, or works with/for me on custom scripts. I wish the modding community had more people like him.
Dwimenor: Lack of linux version, loads/saves a slower than vanilla, likes the launcher.I sadly cant do much about Linux, I am not even sure of most utilities and dfhack scripts would work on it. I have never used it, but the community usually does linux ports on their own, which I link to from the main release thread. The loading/saving I explained earlier, its just that its more files that are saved into the save/region folders, but FPS are not affected by it.
thvaz: Purist that loves vanilla + ascii. Tried MDF, feels to gamey.Nothing to say here, a clear statement. Also another nudge towards "please more simulation, not strategy game".
Getix Kain: Likes the mod, especially the launcher and the standardized materials.Thank you. Even if that is not much for me to work with ( :P ) it shows that its simple a matter of personal opinions to like or dislike standardized materials.
kingu: Posted helpful suggestions instead of pure likes/dislikes. Magic and fantasy metals should be removed from dwarves, workshops could be less, maybe by merging them, castes are neat, and manual should be more up to date.Obviously a MDF player with knowledge of its features here. :) Manual is alway a requested topic, although I always hope in vain that somehow people manage to get the MDF wiki in order. Its difficult as the author to know whats some people find easy to learn, while others find it hard. Bloat criticism #4.
KingofstarrySkies: Loves it.:)
NullForceOmega: Dislikes unfair combat additions like interactions/syndromes/fire-that-burns-surface. "The mining changes are agonizing", and too many workshops with unreasonable skills/mixes of features. Hates caste system, hates carp stuff that kills his fort. (bonus points for asking everyone to calm down at some point)Bloat criticism #5. The rest I dont understand to be honest. The interaction based combat (magic) and fires are all parts of optional features. There are no mining changes, except the optional warpstone/coal dust. All new workshops are optional. Caste system is optional, as is the hidden fun stuff like the carp cult. The combat/fire point I understand, thats a matter of game balancing, but the rest are personal taste issues, and all of the ones you mention are optional, all of them can be removed with the click of a button. These should be a non-issue(?)
Gnomeknows: Likes it, posts good suggestions. Better manual. Less bloat. Less test-features/unfinished stuff. Likes most of all the new races, especially gnomes, automatons and machines, and world-interaction. (force event script)Bloat Criticism #6. Makes a perfect point for dfhack inclusion, because all the advanced game mechanics rely on them. And again, the better manual.
Dyret: Dislikes mostly too many workshops and features.Bloat criticism #7.
Splint: Likes the mod (doesnt specifically state it, but he does several story forts with the mod, so its pretty save to say that he does.) Posts long and detailed feedback about features. Manual could be better. Diseases are unfair/need rewrite. Likes alternative metals/bloodsteel etc. Loves standardized materials. Thinks succubi dont fit well, as does the hermit (changed his mind by now about the hermit), dislikes mentioning Armok ingame (too meta), likes optional Carp stuff, likes magic because it fits specific roles, dislikes trading nerf and too many workshops.Manual again. :D I could really need someone to just write down a list of things I should add. "A better manual" doesnt really give me an idea of what to add to make it better. If people could please specifically state "I am lacking information about X, and would like a table about Y", that would help so much. Not sure how much I should say here, since we talk often enough. :) I fully agree on the disease part, they were working differently from what I expected, which is the reason they are disabled for now. Bloat criticism about too many workshops agaion, #8.
Button: Never played the mod, because he dislikes people talking about it and fantasy orcs, because its not DF-lore.I think you should overthink your position. Its like saying that you dislike bicycles because some idiot on a bicycle cut you off. ;) The orcs are fully optional, yet again one click in the launcher and they dont exist.
Baffler: Likes (?) the mod, but also copies single features into vanilla to use. Better documention should be included into the mod.Another point for the manual. As said above, more specific requests for topics to be included in the manual would help me more, but I rather do that in the MDF board, thats what its for.
PrimusRibbus: Loves Accelerated DF for standardization, but dislikes MDF for too much bloat and aimlessness. In his own words, short and precise: TL;DR: Technical masterpiece. Lots of bloat and feature creep.Bloat criticism #9. I could say lots more, but I would repeat myself at this point.
Gojira1000: Likes it, but too much bloat.Bloat criticism #10
sayke: Loves it, but seems to ignore obvious flaws of it. (Even I have to smirk when I read "bug-free")We know each other well enough I'd say. Thanks for jumping in and answering questions, but maybe be less zealous in future. :P Also, balanced and bugfree? Really? :P
Ant: Likes it, likes the launcher, because it allows him to disable features he personally doesnt like, e.g. warpstone or high magic.Thank you so much for being an optimist. Most people that replied here said: "I dislike the mod because of X", while you say "I like the launcher, for disabling the X I dont want". Which is precisely the point of the launcher, to give people a bit of freedom of choice over the content.
Getix Kain: Would like single features as drag&drop for vanilla DF, e.g. a Mod Starter Pack that reverts back to vanilla, while adding minor mods.This seems to me like a request for a more extensive launcher, that brings the mod closer to vanilla. Which has been stated by several people so far.
corrosivechains: Likes it, but feels it is getting bloated. Also a lot of Meta-discussion, like "There is always the problem that if someone refuses to let their work be absorbed by masterwork, or later decides they no longer want it packaged within masterwork, that this person will then be ridiculed and ostracized by the fans of masterwork because of it. "Bloat criticism #11. I quoted that one line of yours, because it already happened, and no one ever mentioned anything about it in neither positive nor negative view. Vherid asked me to remove several of his tilesets and color schemes, and I did. No one minded. Usually the creators of content seem very happy when I ask if I can add it to Masterwork, because it brings their content to a vast number of people.
Wastedlabor: Dislikes it because it adds too many foreign additions, not strictly DF-lore stuff.I spoke about it earlier, there is a limit to what can be done with df lore alone. But I might consider making dwarves closer to vanilla, and changing the GUI to allows bringing it down closer to vanilla DF.
Repseki: Likes the mod, the launcher and standardized materials especially. Likes the new races, but feels that it can get overwhelming, and that the launcher should be able to bring the mod closer to vanilla.Again two points that were adressed by other before, too many features and that the GUI should have more options to remove unwanted content. This convinces me even me to work more on the GUI.
ibluminatus: Likes it, together with LNP, MDF was what brought him to DF.Thank you, that is nice to hear. :)
Shizmoo: Likes it, because vanilla DF is too easy for him by now. Likes graphical additions a lot, as well as the large collection of utilities and scripts.Thank you too. :)
Scruiser: Likes it, will wait for the 40.x conversion. Likes the launcher for disabling parts that he personally dont think fit into DF.And again, thank you too, for saying "launcher good for removing parts", instead of "parts are bad". I think its very important to make this point clear. Many additions are a matter of taste, the mod cannot meet everyones taste, but the mod offer the solution by being customizeable.
smakemupagus: Mostly answered questions in the thread, certainly likes the mod, considering that he was the first other modder to specifically write content for it, his Orc Mode.Hey smake, fancy seeing you here. No comments needed. ;)
tootboot: Thinks its too overwhelming. Better solution to take 20% of best content, make smaller mod. (Masterwork Lite?)I will put the overwhelming point towards bloat, #12 by now. Although the launcher could do what you suggest, removing the biggest part of the mod. I do have to admit that I thought about a smaller MDF version, something that is truly vanilla, but has completely independant modules that you can drop in.
GhostDwemer: Disliked older version, but loves newer version, but seen as "Steampunk DF", not "vanilla DF with extras"I am curious what made you change your mind? Just the new outlook, to not try to see it as vanilla+ but instead as something new with its own lore?
Authority2: Never tried it, no likes or dislikes.Ehm... thank you for your input, I guess. ^^
snelg: Likes it, especially launcher that can get rid of bloat. Feels its a bit bloated. Never tried different races.Bloat criticism #13. I would like to ask you to try the other races at least. Humans should be easiest to get into, as well as Orcs. :) The others are more difficult, but the other races are such a large part of the mod, it would be a shame not to have a look at least. ;)
Paphi: "If such a huge amount of Masterwork is optional, why is it even all bundled together to begin with?" Dislikes it for mixing features from different authors, and being too large (?).I honestly couldnt quite grasp your point. Sayke and smake answered most of your direct questions, but just for completions sake: Huge amounts of the mod are optional, because they are matters of personal taste. The optional features are not good or bad, and people keep the good and remove the bad, but instead they are features that someone might like or dislike, and people can only keep the ones they like. I could also split the mod into 7 mods (one for each race), but why should people download it 7 times, with all the extra utilities and fluff, if they can have it in one pack.
Eric Blank: Dislikes it, mostly for standardized materials, the launcher, the necessity of documentation, and the sheer amount of stuff. "How do you even keep mods from other modders that you include up to date and compatible?"Another post that I dont quite understand myself. Saying that its too large for you is fine, but what could possibly be wrong about the launcher, or "the necessity of documentation" as you said? Is a mod that adds features that require a manual automatically a no-go zone for you?
Vattic: Doesnt like it for its style (too gamey/fantasy, not enough simulation/realism I assume. He didnt post too many details), but takes parts if it for personal mods.Fair enough. :) Again, the conflict between adding features for realisms sake versus the adding features as pure game mechanics.
BillyJack: Likes the mod, but dislikes optional parts. Got quite involved into improving it with some Raw patches, but would rather see more stable, better documented updates, instead of new features.Another point for the manual. ^^ Again, if specifics would be mentioned, I'd be happy to include them. Oh, btw, you said that previously the updates always introduced new features with potential bugs, and bugfixes. Currently thats not the case, I only add new races and bugfixes for the old ones. There are no new features for older races, they only get bugfixes and balancing since 10 versions or so.
lunaman22: Loves it. Loves vanilla more. Very down-to-the-point post.Thank you, especially for showing that both can be played at the same time, and that its not a contest. :)
malvado: Likes it, especially the launcher. Would like more detailed tooltips about them.This can be done and falls under improving the GUI.
AJC: Finds it funny (so I assume he likes it), no further feedback.MDF you funny guy. I'll kill you last.
Talvieno: Doesnt play it, because its too big a change.I just be so free and put this under bloat criticism #14, too overwhelming for new players.
burned: Mostly meta-discussion about bay12, Toady, donations, etc. Dislikes it, never played it. Mostly criticises personal things, not mod content. Direct question: "What is it that you are seeking here? Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me." and "Something seems wrong about holding a fundraiser for yourself for a mod for a game where the creator of that game lives off donations." (those stood out to me the most)Wow man, you stepped on so many peoples toes and completely missed the point of the discussion. If it werent for your good articulation and proper grammar, I would have assumed you a troll. To directly answer some of your questions: I am seeking feedback by DF players that dont play the mod, which is vastly different from people that are not interested in the mod. The people might be interested, but turned off from it for a reason. You never tried it? Why? You tried it, didnt like it? Why? (its too large. its not my style. its too hard to learn. its too far removed from vanilla DF. These are a few I took from this thread.) The entire discussion about donations, devouring smaller mods, credits and inclusions by other authors what not the intention of this thread.
k33n: Dislikes classic fantasy tropes introduced by the mod. Also a lot of meta-discussion, mostly about including other peoples work and taking donations.DF lore and non-df lore has been discussed above. Source materials have their limits.
sum1won: Would like a more stable version.Bugfixing request, all right. :)
Devstorm: Downloaded it, couldnt get it to run, never played it. (I'll send you a PM, I want to know what happened)Not much I can say here, since I have not much info.
macscarfe: Felt overwhelmed, but wants to give it another try.I'll add this to bloat criticism #15.
thvaz: Mostly meta-discussion, dislikes the donation option and the inclusion on the DF wiki.Again, the only person that has something to say about the donations is Tarn Adams. Everything else is inconcievable for me. About the wiki: I have absolutely no part in that, the creator and admin of the official DF wiki, locriani/briess approached me and asked if he can add this namespace to the wiki. All pages, links and content on the MDF wiki and the DF wiki that go towards MDF are done by the community and the wiki admins.
arbarbonif: Plays MDF dwarves, feels its somewhat bloated, never tried other races because of that bloat.Bloat criticism #16. And please, please, have a look at the other races. You are missing out. I recommend humans, they have the best documentation and smallest building section, if it is the amount of features that turn you off.
mnjiman: Dislikes it a lot, mostly for option paralysis and pointless features. (Also dislikes how I do things(?)) "You have to ask yourself "What are your goals right now?" because honestly, I think your kidding yourself if you think what you are doing here is the right course of action. It really isn't. For now, IMO you should stop posting in this thread and let people just talk amongst themselves."Bloat criticism #17. And criticism about this thread? To answer your question directly: My goal is to find out how to make the mod better. I usually ask in the MDF board, but obviously I only get feedback from players that already know the mod well. Here, I want to find out why people started playing the mod, but stopped. Could you please explain me why this isnt the right course of action, from your point of view? Because I opened the thread specifically stating that I will be back in 2 weeks and answer everything, which is exactly what I am doing now. See that top of the first post. ;)
Sutremaine: Meta-discussion about "one mod to rule them all". Also dfhack dependancy and too many features/aimlessness.Besides the other non-content mod stuff, I dont understand why using dfhack would be a negative point, and bloat criticism #18.
Legionaries: Tried it, found it too overwhelming, but liked sideeffects like being exposed to new features, mods in general and tilesets. Learned a bit of modding from it.And bloat #19. But it had positive sideeffects.
fvanegdom: Likes it for the vast size/progression, would like to see waterpipes, only played dwarves so far.Nice to see that you are not bored with dwarves yet, but if you want to see water pipes, you might want to have a look at Gnomes. IndigoFenix did an amazing job and used dfhack to create a drilling rig that automatically sucks liquids, and can be used for pipes, you can even drill straight down into the magma lake and run it through the pipe to the surface. The pop-ratio for guilds is a good suggestion, its currently that all guilds have the same ratio.
QuoteButton: Never played the mod, because she dislikes people talking about it and fantasy orcs, because its not DF-lore.I think you shouldoverrethink your position. Its like saying that you dislike bicycles because some idiot on a bicycle cut you off. ;) The orcs are fully optional, yet again one click in the launcher and they dont exist.
Quoteburned: Mostly meta-discussion about bay12, Toady, donations, etc. Dislikes it, never played it. Mostly criticises personal things, not mod content. Direct question: "What is it that you are seeking here? Asking for feedback from people notWow man, you
interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me." and "Something seems wrong about holding a fundraiser for yourself for a mod for a game where the creator of that game lives off donations." (those stood out to me the most)
stepped on so many peoples toes and completely missed the point of the discussion. If it werent for your good articulation and proper grammar, I would have assumed you a troll. To directly answer some of your questions: I am seeking feedback by DF
players that dont play the mod, which is vastly different from people that are not interested in the mod. The people might be interested, but turned off from it for a reason. You never tried it? Why? You tried it, didnt like it? Why? (its too large. its
not my style. its too hard to learn. its too far removed from vanilla DF. These are a few I took from this thread.) The entire discussion about donations, devouring smaller mods, credits and inclusions by other authors what not the intention of this
thread.
About the donations/fundraiser: The only person that has a say in the matter is Tarn Adams.
The rest of the discussion, about taking-credit-for-other-peoples-work, taking-donations-in-toadys-yard and being-a-black-hole-of-mods: You guys have the audacity to challenge me on that? Are you out of your minds? The only people that have a valid
reason to do so are the creators of the third party utilities, like Talvieno. People that write mods, like Smake or Putnam. And for the donations, Tarn Adams alone, which whom I probably spoke more to than any other person in this thread. I ask politely
if I may include programs or mods or tilesets, or the creators come to me. The response has been positive in all cases, from "you may use anything I write." to "Its a privilege, thank you for considering it for MDF." People asking me if they may
generate content specifically made for MDF. I asked the community "What do you think about a fundraiser?" and with overwhelming majority the people supported it. I offered Toady 50% of the donations, he would have none of it. The only reason he didnt
want to be tied to someone financially (as seen in the quote posted somewhere in this thread) is for legal reasons. I offered to give 50% of it to charity, people said: I'd rather want you to have it, for your hard work. I literally lose money when I do
these fundraisers, because working a month on DF for 750/1000$ is way below working a month for minimum wage in Germany. MDF stifflying other modders? Might be true, but it also empowers other modders. People learn how to mod from it. Its open source
and every person can take parts of it and use them, privately or in a mod they release, freely. I go through the modding forum and specifically point people, that want to do a certain project, to raws or scripts that already exist, so they dont have to
do the same work twice.
If you are a modder or author of a third-party program, feel free to say your piece. If you are Splinterz, who writes the Dwarf Therapist, if you are PeridexisErrant, who writes the Starter Pack, Deon who lost most of his players that migrated from
Genesis to MDF, feel free. Putnam does it often enough, and I respect him for his position, and help as I can. But as someone standing on the sidelines, with no investement of his own, be it money, work or time, yelling "booo" for no other reason than
that you can, is not acceptable, its downright childish.
QuoteZanzetkuken The Great: Meta-discussion, dislikes dfhack dependancy and "one mod to rule them all"-effect.
Not much to say here, since there is no feedback about the mod itself.
The mod exists since 3 years, and those things have never been mentioned in a negative light, not by players, not in the general modding area, not by other mod authors or utility authors, nor by Toady.
QuoteThe mod exists since 3 years, and those things have never been mentioned in a negative light, not by players, not in the general modding area, not by other mod authors or utility authors, nor by Toady. Only exception is Putnam and his crusade against reddit, but even that is very recent.I'll take the bullet on that one, heh.
You post this assuming that people know a lot more than they do. It should be easy to use for the most unlearned PC user ever. With flashy graphics. Graphical user interface. Aggressive advertisement: BUY NOW! GLUTEN FREE! ASBESTOS FREE! BEST MOD PACK THIS SIDE OF ASIA!
Dwarf Mode is so cluttered, because it is the first thing I wrote as a modder. It has all the features, because people request new features, and it was not designed with a clear aim. However, the other races are. The problem with that is that new players start with the default Dwarf Mode, see a clusterfuck of features, and dont even try the additional races.Thanks for emphasizing how different the races are and how some of them are actually simpler to play. I was aware that the other races presented vastly different play-styles, but it didn't occur to me that they would be more steam-lined/simpler to play. I will definitely try them out soon (just started my Fall semester and I want to make sure all my classes are good before I sink time into a new fort ;)). If this thread is still open a few weeks from now, I will try to give more feedback here, if not I will post feedback to masterwork forum.
QuoteGetix Kain: Likes the mod, especially the launcher and the standardized materials.Thank you. Even if that is not much for me to work with ( :P ) it shows that its simple a matter of personal opinions to like or dislike standardized materials.
Button: Technically speaking, if I would argue you out of your objections, you would indeed try to play it. ;)
As I mentioned in that very long post, my current plan is to add lots more options to the launcher, adds profiles to it and change dwarf mode to have a tighter concept and less 'stuff'. :)
Meph:What I was referring to was your level of emotional attachment to what is being said in this thread and your level of commitment to what is being said. Read what people are saying, but don't take it to heart. I like what your doing with your Mod and love that your passionate about DF. Nothing you have said or done thus far has been wrong or offensive. Saying this however, it seems to me that the thread may turn for the worse if you do end up getting too emotionally involved with what people are saying. Dont. People want to help you and getting your own emotions and passions involved may back fire. I am not saying you are... I just want to give you a warning that this may occur if you dont keep track of your feelings. If your going to reply, be tasteful and read over what you type before you post it. If your becoming too involved and the thread is bothering you way too much, either stop posting all together or just close it.
Why am I warning you of this? I have seen too many threads like this collapse under its own weight. Everyone here has amazing intentions. The betterment of DF. That is amazing and its amazing everyone is so passionate about it. However with passion comes emotions, and with emotions comes both the positive and the negative. We need to try to react to everything in this thread with more logic than emotion.
That is all I am saying.
TLDR: I just want to be sure people are aware of their emotions and to try not to be super passionate about what is being said. Not saying it is happening, but I do want to point it out so people can continue being more logical than emotional. The thread is turning out really well so far because people are doing this.