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Finally... => Creative Projects => Topic started by: Lord Dullard on December 26, 2009, 06:59:21 am

Title: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 26, 2009, 06:59:21 am
__..--== Cult ==--..__
Awakening of the Old Ones

5-10-12: New development video added! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OpQPuOc5hg) Check it out if you'd like to see an early iteration of the inventory and some resource gathering.

Project development blog and homepage: The Official Cult Development Blog (http://cultrl.wordpress.com)
3-26-2012: I've just uploaded a couple of development preview videos to YouTube. Please check them out here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zX_6fh8ieys) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFbERx7HUDY).

===============( About Cult )===============

Cult is a multi-genre RL (roguelike) variant game that is currently in the early development stages. It is coded almost entirely in Python (although some processor-intensive parts of the code are replaced by C/C++ extension modules in order to increase speed) and utilizes the excellent libtcod library for roguelikes.

While many of the individual aspects of the Cult player experience are still being planned, some of the eventual goals of the project will include:


In the short term (and probably far more practically), the main developmental goal is to establish a functioning (and hopefully interesting) world for the player to explore and to add features piece-by-piece which will gradually allow the main character to influence their world in new and exciting ways.

===============( Thanks )===============

Thanks to the Bay12 community for all of its excellent support and suggestions thus far.

Thanks to Toady One and Threetoe for all of their incredible work on Dwarf Fortress, for hosting the forums, and for releasing their games to the community for no charge.

====================================

This topic will remain continuously updated until such a time as I announce otherwise. Updates of significant note will be reflected on the Cult development blog.

UPDATE (10-2-2011):

There is a brand new alpha tech demo released today! For more details, SEE THIS POST. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46922.msg2656114#msg2656114)

UPDATE (2-5-2012):

Several videos have been added to the devblog since I have begun working on regional map generation and game mechanics. Check the spoiler below for links to a few of them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Vester on December 26, 2009, 07:02:30 am
It is pleasing to the eye.

About the gameplay: do you mean for this to be a political maneuver-fest? Because that would be awesome.

For example, how does one interact with other people? Other high priests? Could things potentially get violent?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 26, 2009, 07:06:45 am
Political maneuvering should certainly be a part of the game, although the player will also have the option of throwing in the diplomatic towel and simply going to war with a civilization. The game will lend you the benefit of being a sort of religion-ization, which is probably a bit unrealistic but will (I think, anyway) offer a lot more fun and options than being one or the other.

Could things potentially get violent?

Most definitely.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Berserker on December 26, 2009, 07:15:25 am
The menu's background noise looks like it's lagging on my computer. Is this made in Python and then compiled to an exe?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Flintus10 on December 26, 2009, 07:16:24 am
Yes this idea sounds great, political maneuvering + frenzied cultists can only lead to good things.

But yeah will political maneuvering just involved diplomacy and stuff or will here be the option to say convert the masses of another nation and turn them against their own religion ect?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 26, 2009, 07:23:22 am
The menu's background noise looks like it's lagging on my computer. Is this made in Python and then compiled to an exe?

Yes, this is compiled Python - however, the lag you're seeing is a result of me forgetting to switch a variable back to its original setting.

Try downloading this (http://fallout-mux.wikidot.com/local--files/start/cult.rar) file instead, which has been recompiled to fix it.

By the way, for anyone who is downloading the .exe, I neglected to mention that you *can* move the view around in the terrain generator with your directional keys/numpad.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Berserker on December 26, 2009, 07:47:12 am
Can you tell what python module are you using to play the music?

I'm making a roguelike engine in Python with Libtcod, and it is almost finished, but I am having problems with playing sounds. I am currently using the Python's built-in module winsound, which can only play wav files.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Outcast Orange on December 26, 2009, 01:49:37 pm
It looks cool so far.

I'd like to see it in a more finished state some time.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: chaoticag on December 26, 2009, 03:14:19 pm
I am not saying that I could make any music here, but since the focus of this project is to deal with gods, shouldn't the music feel more mysterious and mystical rather than a generic medieval tune?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 27, 2009, 01:39:17 am
So, forests are now generated during worldgen. This was more of a pain to implement than I'd anticipated, but now that the basic code block for generating new map square types is finished, it'll be easy to copy them over for snow and other features.

The way terrain and map feature generation will be set up, it'll also be really easy to check for different types of parameters in map squares and generate local maps on-the-fly based on those parameters.

A few screens:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Random names for humans (males) and human-related places are now also able to be generated.

Quote
Can you tell what python module are you using to play the music?

It's the music module from Pygame. I wouldn't advise using any other parts of Pygame, though - it's bloated and has a lot of unnecessary code overhead. But the music part of the module does let you play midis and mp3s, and it's the only module to do so that's still maintained regularly (that I know of).

Quote
I am not saying that I could make any music here, but since the focus of this project is to deal with gods, shouldn't the music feel more mysterious and mystical rather than a generic medieval tune?

Yes, you're probably right. Right now I've just got it looping an old Irish folk song (it was mostly a test to see if music played properly). The reason something better isn't playing is the same reason I have a request up in the OP for help with music.  ;)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 27, 2009, 08:08:38 am
A quick update - forests are now blitted to the screen differently, and grassy plains have been made more green.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Time to start on deserts and snow.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 27, 2009, 03:36:57 pm
Deserts are in!

The game also now exports a copy of the world map upon worldgen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not quite perfect yet, and there are still a few artifacts being generated now and then that I want to clean up, but it's getting much closer. Snow is all that's left before moving on to site generation!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Sliver Barb on December 29, 2009, 12:40:45 am
Edited.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 29, 2009, 12:43:04 am
So, worldgen has been retooled quite a lot. Deserts now blend in with their surroundings and world features are generated in much more natural ways.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 30, 2009, 11:31:20 am
Snow is done! The world will be generated with an arctic cutoff line that wavers slightly from a general 20%-ish setting. Additionally, worldgen has been significantly retooled. Forests now vary in type so that an adventurer will encounter several different varieties of forest type while exploring.

Here are a couple sample worlds generated one after another (their names both starting with 'n' is incidental). You'll notice that the snowcaps have been removed from mountains; these are going to be re-added quickly before I move on to named location generation (they'll look more natural if they're generated as a completely separate layer):

The Land of Naenirion (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/naenirion.png)
The Land of Noxivor (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/noxivor.png) - Lots of deserts in this one.

You may have observed that islands completely separated from the mainland occur. This is okay, since travel by boat will be a feature of the game. Archipelago-type map formations also happen now and again, and the game will eventually have tinkerable-with worldgen parameters in order for players to specifically force such a world into generation.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: chaoticag on December 30, 2009, 02:20:31 pm
This seems to be coming along quite nicely. It comes surprisingly close to an idea I once had.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Bricks on December 30, 2009, 02:46:16 pm
Starting to look nice; the forests as icons look a little more descriptive than darker blobs of green.  I need to figure out libtcod; pygame is making me grind my teeth.  For the northern regions, have you considered freezing over some of the ocean, too?  I think it would look nice and help differentiate it from simple snow-covered land.

EDIT:  Of course, the OS X distribution of libtcod keeps puking errors.  Apparently it's "never been tested."  I'm going to go head-butt the pavement.  What blows my mind is that it distributes with valid OS X applications.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Psyco Jelly on December 30, 2009, 02:59:31 pm
Also, snow on the top of mountains would be a nice touch.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Blacken on December 30, 2009, 03:05:00 pm
This looks highly slick. I'm a big fan of libtcod; I was a contributor to the .NET bindings for a while. I'll be interested to see how this turns out!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 30, 2009, 06:47:48 pm
Not only do you get snow caps on mountains - you get mountain shadows, too!

Check out the Land of Pendalwin (http://fallout-mux.wikidot.com/local--files/start/pendalwin.png) for an example.

It's time to move on to named locations. First off will be actual geographical location name generation (the Bay of Blah, Foobar Peak, the Desert of Yadayada, and so on). Aside from having flavor value, these will be used by NPCs to give you directions, and you'll have an option as an adventurer to have them displayed as 'hovering text' on the world map at all times to help you remember where you are.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Outcast Orange on December 30, 2009, 09:07:35 pm
That's really cool!

I am impressed.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Rafal99 on December 30, 2009, 11:30:42 pm
Looks very nice!

May I ask what sort of algorithm do you use for terrain generation?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 31, 2009, 12:15:27 am
Mountains have been changed north of the arctic line so that they too become completely snow-covered.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've included multi-threading capability into the worldgen process, which means you can now sit back and watch as the code 'draws' the world map layer by layer. It's pretty neat, especially considering how much more still needs to be added - and even better, it's *quick*! Additionally, you can now actually move the viewfinder around during generation.

For those of you that would like to get a preview of world generation so far, here you go (http://fallout-mux.wikidot.com/local--files/start/cult.zip)! (~7 megabytes)

Again, I have no idea how compatible it will decide to be with non-Windows OSes at this point, but it might be worth a try.

Quote
May I ask what sort of algorithm do you use for terrain generation?

The libtcod library comes with some very useful heightmap generation/manipulation functions, although it takes a lot of tweaking (and sometimes outright ignoring or rewriting) to get things just right.

To expand on that a bit, essentially the world map is just layers comprised of mixes between simplex noise and voronoi diagrams that are mapped on to a large grid and then normalized to represent a heightmap (it's not as complicated as it sounds, really).
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: FluffyToast J on December 31, 2009, 12:52:28 am
Wow. This tech demo looks absolutely amazing, and from your description of the gameplay makes it sound really good. Definately going to play this once it's done. Well done.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: x2yzh9 on December 31, 2009, 05:02:26 am
Wow, this project is moving along rather fast Lord Dullard.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 31, 2009, 08:15:51 am
To those who have expressed interest/support, thank you! It's good to hear, since I'm relatively new at Python coding, and gives me hope that the end product won't cause total mental breakdown.

Quote
Wow, this project is moving along rather fast Lord Dullard.

Terrain generation did go rather swimmingly, but I suspect history/civ generation will be quite a bit more complex to wade through.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Blacken on December 31, 2009, 11:05:46 am
Terrain generation did go rather swimmingly, but I suspect history/civ generation will be quite a bit more complex to wade through.
Having done something similar before--with individual people and families rather than civilizations as a whole, but on a similar scale--the coding part is unlikely to be the hard part. The hard part's likely to be tweaking everything to look good. ;)

Unless you do something wacky (and by extension really cool), it really is just a big honking whack of looping iteration. Nothing to be daunted by.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 31, 2009, 11:18:48 am
A very quick update before I run off to an interview (;D) and then work:

Named mountain peaks can now be generated. The algorithm for doing this took some tweaking until it stopped crashing script, but now it's working pretty handily. I do need to tweak some settings to get it working just the way I want, and I also want to set it up so that it has the ability to name bluffs and low hills in worlds where few tall mountains are generated, but here's a teaser --

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Outcast Orange on December 31, 2009, 03:20:06 pm
Wow!
That is epic.

I am very excited about this project now.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: inteuniso on December 31, 2009, 03:34:31 pm
This looks pretty epic dude. Like Black & White except without God powers... or a creature... or anything like that.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Cthulhu on January 01, 2010, 12:09:22 am
In other words only in the vaguest and most tangential way related to Black and White.

Still looks awesome, and you're really moving too.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Nadaka on January 01, 2010, 12:12:57 am
damn, it looks pretty interesting so far. Much more of this and I will have to find the time to finish what I am working on and make time to start my own game.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 01, 2010, 03:26:39 am
Seriously. I restate my earlier comment: This looks fucking awesome. Just as a world generator alone it would be awesome. My hat goes off to you, sir. Or at least it would if I had a hat. Nonetheless, great job!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 01, 2010, 12:38:12 pm
Why. Can't. I. DELETE IT?!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 01, 2010, 01:57:20 pm
I'm not sure as to whether that's a serious technical question or not. If it is, it's unlikely that I can help you unless you give me more information about the nature of the problem (i.e. what type of message you're getting when you try to delete it, what OS you're on, et cetera). If you're on Vista it's likely a permissions problem (which is endemic to the OS, not the program).
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 01, 2010, 02:17:31 pm
A quick afternoon update - so, I know I said terrain generation was done. I lied. I spent a few hours this morning tinkering around with learning how to edit anti-aliased truecolor fonts, and the result was naturally that I decided to add several different new font characters for forests and shrubs. D'oh.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, the game will now generate the following forest types: evergreen, coniferous, deciduous, broadleaf, mixed...
And the following shrub types: heathland, scrubland, marshland, cacti (desert only).
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 01, 2010, 02:45:38 pm
Windows XP.
Says that it might be written to the disk or currently in use.
I know it is neither.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: chaoticag on January 01, 2010, 02:47:51 pm
Restart your computer and try again. What I think happened was a process related to the program is still running.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 01, 2010, 02:54:38 pm
Or try this: http://www.theeldergeek.com/delete_undeletable_file.htm

The problem you're having is specific to NTFS file systems (yay Microsoft). As far as I can tell, it doesn't have anything to do with the .exe; when I switch over to my XP partition and run it I'm able to delete it afterwords.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 01, 2010, 02:59:25 pm
ok ill restart and try it first.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Dwarf on January 01, 2010, 03:12:40 pm
I'm not sure as to whether that's a serious technical question or not. If it is, it's unlikely that I can help you unless you give me more information about the nature of the problem (i.e. what type of message you're getting when you try to delete it, what OS you're on, et cetera). If you're on Vista it's likely a permissions problem (which is endemic to the OS, not the program).

Hmmm... a bit difficult to formulate my question... does the world map actually have 'substance' or is it just a more or less randomly generated picture?
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Nadaka on January 01, 2010, 03:16:58 pm
The question I want to ask is this: Is the world map stored or procedurally regenerated as needed. For instance, can you (or will be able to when you get to that point) dynamically generate local terrain as you move across the map? I ask because the project I am planning is definitely going to require being able to generate maps both top down and bottom up.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 01, 2010, 03:17:50 pm
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'll interpret that as 'does the world map actually represent a table of values that will make a difference to exploration of the game?'

The answer is 'yes'.

However, in order to keep less processor-heavy computers from killing themselves by generating a new copy of the world (visually) in every single frame of processing, the code automatically saves the final visual state of the world to a PNG picture and uses that as its frame of reference. This means all it has to do is blit a single image on to your screen, not process through several giant Python dictionaries of information about terrain height, vegetation, et cetera. If the game then needs information about a specific (x,y) location on the map, it simply searches the dictionaries for that bit of information.

If you wanted to change a segment of the world, you'd have to modify the dictionaries, regenerate the image, and then just go on from there.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Dwarf on January 01, 2010, 03:20:29 pm
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'll interpret that as 'does the world map actually represent a table of values that will make a difference to exploration of the game?'

The answer is 'yes'.

However, in order to keep less processor-heavy computers from killing themselves by generating a new copy of the world (visually) in every single frame of processing, the code automatically saves the final visual state of the world to a PNG picture and uses that as its frame of reference. This means all it has to do is blit a single image on to your screen, not process through several giant Python dictionaries of information about terrain height, vegetation, et cetera. If the game then needs information about a specific (x,y) location on the map, it simply searches the dictionaries for that bit of information.

Ah, exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 01, 2010, 05:09:37 pm
Thanks, Deleted it.
Now I can ge tnew versions!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 03:28:47 pm
Named forests: in!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The world will *try* to generate 40 named forests per world (with a minimum distance of 30 between each), but you are not guaranteed to get all 40 (in fact most maps won't). There's also a cutoff of forests being nameable at 50/96 forest tiles in a grid segment (each segment being twelve by eight).

The next thing I want to move on to is islands and water features (bays, oceans, lakes, etc). This will be slightly more challenging, but having named islands will be freaking cool.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Dwarf on January 02, 2010, 03:54:27 pm
Named forests: in!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The world will *try* to generate 40 named forests per world (with a minimum distance of 30 between each), but you are not guaranteed to get all 40 (in fact most maps won't). There's also a cutoff of forests being nameable at 50/96 forest tiles in a grid segment (each segment being twelve by eight).

The next thing I want to move on to is islands and water features (bays, oceans, lakes, etc). This will be slightly more challenging, but having named islands will be freaking cool.

I understand it's not top priority, but I think a higher resolution map or atleast anti-aliasing would be nice :)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 04:13:00 pm
This is all text - thus the 'roguelike' title.

Higher 'resolution' could be achieved by using a smaller text size, but this would be at the expense of readability, thus defeating the purpose.

Considering the fact that this is an all-text game, I'm fairly happy with the visual appearance at this point; if I ever decide to undertake an actual graphics engine to go along with it, that will be a different story (but yes, it's a low priority).
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hawkfrost on January 02, 2010, 04:26:58 pm
It's pretty, and a really cool idea.
Very interesting project, I'll keep an eye on this.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 04:51:08 pm
Desert names are in now, too - I nearly forgot to add them before moving on to islands/water.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Names are also displayed with a tinted background to help the player identify at-a-glance what type of feature the title belongs to.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Dwarf on January 02, 2010, 05:10:34 pm
This is all text - thus the 'roguelike' title.

Higher 'resolution' could be achieved by using a smaller text size, but this would be at the expense of readability, thus defeating the purpose.

Considering the fact that this is an all-text game, I'm fairly happy with the visual appearance at this point; if I ever decide to undertake an actual graphics engine to go along with it, that will be a different story (but yes, it's a low priority).

Sorry, not good in formulating today :/. I don't know if I asked the right thing:

Right now, it looks like a tile of beach is, well, huge, or that the symbols represent more single trees than maybe a hectare of forest.
Sorry if I annoy you ;)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 05:15:21 pm
This is a roguelike world map - a single tile probably does represent more trees than a hectare of forest.

When actually playing the game, obviously you'll be able to explore smaller areas of land.

Let me put it this way: how much area does a tile on the DF world map represent? The world map you're looking at means roughly the same thing.

And you don't annoy me.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: florian on January 02, 2010, 09:39:49 pm
A pocket world has 17 * 17 tiles, each of which has 16 * 16 smaller tiles, each of which has 48 * 48 tiles.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 10:04:44 pm
http://www.aleph-null.com/adom/drakmap.html

And there's the world map of ADOM, ostensibly one of the most popular roguelikes of all time, in all its miniature glory.

I have no particular plans of emulating DF to the tiniest detail, although certain parts of DF are an inspiration, yes. But the particular geographical scope of the game does not need to match DF's.

ETA:

To add to that, I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of expanding the game map up another 'level', but I can't think of any practical reason why I should. My plan has been to have the scope of the game take place on a continent/group of islands, and allow adventurers to leave their current land for another by traveling across the border if they so desire, but they would essentially be starting afresh in a new area (just with the same character).

In essence, I would rather have a game that works with a slightly smaller-than-worldwide scope very well than a game that works with a huge world not-very-well. If anyone can provide me with a compelling reason to think that a worldwide map is necessary, I may rethink things (then again, I may not - but it can't hurt).
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Bricks on January 02, 2010, 11:20:37 pm
A single tile in DF is actually rather large, you might want to stick to something that can be displayed on a screen without scrolling.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 02, 2010, 11:24:53 pm
I liked your old avatar :C
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 11:34:58 pm
A single tile in DF is actually rather large, you might want to stick to something that can be displayed on a screen without scrolling.

I'm sorry, but I'm not even sure I know what's being complained about at this point. Are people suggesting that the map be smaller? That it be larger? That it not scroll? I seem to be seeing all three.

I have a particular vision for this game, and while I appreciate suggestions, my own ideas are not likely to match up exactly with those of others. Furthermore, if this is being compared to Dwarf Fortress's worldgen - well, that's an honor, but I have completely different goals in mind than that game, so it's unfair to make the comparison.

Either that or I'm just not understanding what people are suggesting, in which case I'll have to ask someone spell it out more clearly.

Quote
I liked your old avatar :C

So did I, but I felt it was time for a change. ;)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 02, 2010, 11:36:39 pm
You stole Gwen's avatar.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 02, 2010, 11:39:11 pm
I found it on the internet, where most avatars tend to be found.

Who's Gwen?

ETA:

There, new avatar, since I apparently picked an already-used one.

(By the way, that's kind of a rude accusation to make, when it could have been an accident (it was).)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Jack_Bread on January 02, 2010, 11:44:54 pm
Wow. I love how it looks! So smooth it looks semi-realistic. :)
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Bricks on January 03, 2010, 01:20:02 am
Woah, not trying to piss you off.  I'm saying the size of one world tile in DF takes up a mighty large area, and it makes for a rather blah experience trying to hike through nondescript forests just to get to a cave that might contain four socks and a hobbled giant.  Obviously you aren't planning on the same experience as DF, but vast swaths of undeveloped wilderness are boring.  I'm not saying the screen shouldn't scroll; in fact, I don't think that makes sense for games with overworlds (though I know it has been done).  You haven't really described the ground-level gameplay, so it's not shocking that suggestions are vague or so far off the mark that they don't apply.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Hippoman on January 03, 2010, 01:20:45 am
I found it on the internet, where most avatars tend to be found.

Who's Gwen?

ETA:

There, new avatar, since I apparently picked an already-used one.

(By the way, that's kind of a rude accusation to make, when it could have been an accident (it was).)
Yeah I'm just messing with ya, although this one is much better than your second, and much less better than your first.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 01:36:10 am
Woah, not trying to piss you off.  I'm saying the size of one world tile in DF takes up a mighty large area, and it makes for a rather blah experience trying to hike through nondescript forests just to get to a cave that might contain four socks and a hobbled giant.  Obviously you aren't planning on the same experience as DF, but vast swaths of undeveloped wilderness are boring.  I'm not saying the screen shouldn't scroll; in fact, I don't think that makes sense for games with overworlds (though I know it has been done).  You haven't really described the ground-level gameplay, so it's not shocking that suggestions are vague or so far off the mark that they don't apply.

No worries - I've been having an awful day, so I'm sorry if I seem frazzled.

However, now that you've explained it, your suggestion makes a lot more sense. I'll just say this: don't worry, this isn't just going to be a vast wilderness. And the entire map will be revealed from the beginning of the game (which is not to say that individual squares won't hold secrets), so you won't be wandering around in darkness all the time.

But this will be a game where you'll literally be leading armies around, as well as sailing ships, in real-time. A tiny world map probably wouldn't jive with that.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 02:50:51 am
Wooh. Finally, after a day of struggling with an incredibly pain-in-the-arse lake-finding algorithm, I've got it working. Victory!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Islands will be easy now that lakes are done (it'll use the exact same algorithm only in reverse), but I'll do it tomorrow - I need to hit the sack.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 03, 2010, 04:28:46 am
Woah!!

That is epic. XD
So much in so little time.
You're showing me up!
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 12:31:19 pm
Announcement: Cult Tech Demo v0.15 out!

Download it here! (http://fallout-mux.wikidot.com/local--files/start/cult.zip)

New features include varied forest types, several types of scrubland, mountain, desert, forest, and lake names, and a few other minor visual improvements.

To anyone who is going to test the tech demo, be aware that the lake-finding algorithm does take a moment. On my fairly modest rig, it lasts anywhere from five seconds to upwards of a minute. When lake finding and naming is complete, a 'Finished!' message will appear to let you know you can move the viewfinder around again.

Viewfinder movement during the actual worldgen process has been disabled due to the fact that it seemed to be bugging a couple of the functions. However, you can still move around after terrain gen and then again after history gen, and you still get to watch worldgen happening (you are merely constrained to viewing one 80 x 60 square, so pick somewhere interesting after terrain gen!).

There may be a bug or two lurking in the background that I don't know about yet, so if you get one, please post what happened and at what point in the process it took place. Some problems may be OS-related, which I can't do anything about.

ETA:

Quote
You're showing me up!

Hardly - I don't know the first thing about coding 3D objects. You'd program circles around me if it ever came to that.  :D

ETA II:

Unfortunately, it appears that named islands *might* be a no-go, unless I can figure out a better algorithm for locating them. I'll spend some time on this tonight. However, named oceans and seas will definitely be in.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Willfor on January 03, 2010, 12:43:37 pm
Will there ever be a way to dump the entire post-named map image to an image file? The first thing I thought of when I saw the world being generated was "man, this would be great for generating a world image for a homebrew D&D setting"...

I haven't run into any bugs so far, so it's all clear here.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 12:46:10 pm
Will there ever be a way to dump the entire post-named map image to an image file? The first thing I thought of when I saw the world being generated was "man, this would be great for generating a world image for a homebrew D&D setting"...

I haven't run into any bugs so far, so it's all clear here.

Ironically, it already does this for you each time you do a terrain gen. :)

Just go to the 'art\gfx' folder.

ETA:

Whoops, and I totally missed 'post-named'.

Yes, I'll be adding that soon-ish - but I'd like to get history gen finished first.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Willfor on January 03, 2010, 12:47:57 pm
Oh, awesome. Thanks! :3
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 03, 2010, 09:01:44 pm
This is awesome. Only criticism I have right now is that islands look a little unrealistic. Theyre just circles in the middle of nowhere.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 09:54:25 pm
Could you be more specific about what you'd like to see?

I.e., what do you think islands SHOULD look like? Saying 'they're circles in the middle of nowhere' is a bit like saying 'the forests are like big masses of trees' - it doesn't help me much. If you can be more specific, I can try to improve their appearance.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 03, 2010, 10:18:21 pm
Screenshots of what I mean:

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/Manifold121/Cult2.jpg)(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/Manifold121/Cult1.jpg)

These arent as bad as the other one I found but didnt take a screen shot of. That one was just two circles slightly intersecting about 10 tiles off land. Besides, one of those ones up there looks a little... phallic.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 10:24:07 pm
Ah, okay - formations like that are a result of the way voronoi diagrams are translated on to a heightmap.

I might be able to do something about it, though. We'll see.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 03, 2010, 10:50:58 pm
Perhaps a noise modifier? Would that be possible? Maybe moving one in every three tiles or so towards the ocean, then filling in the space that is left with more land?

Im not sure, I dont program very well.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 03, 2010, 11:11:04 pm
Well, it's not quite that easy - in order to even start modifying islands post-terrain-gen, I'd need to implement an island-finding algorithm. Every island-finding algorithm I've written so far (at least all the ones that have worked with 90%+ accuracy) has been horribly computationally expensive to the point of hanging up the game for a period of minutes. So I'm not too keen on going that route.

I think what you're asking for is more 'pointy' islands, which is kind of tough. Noise generators do curves pretty decently, but they don't do pointy very well at all.

But, I have a couple of ideas that might do the trick. I have a few hours to fiddle around with things tonight, so I might make some progress, although I'll be devoting most of my time to getting the last bits of ocean and bay name generation hammered out.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 03, 2010, 11:12:41 pm
Fair enough. If theres nothing that can easily be done about it, then dont worry about it. Thats the only thing that I find wrong with it, and its not very big anyway.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 03, 2010, 11:39:51 pm
You could crash meteors into the planet during world gen, that would make some interesting bays :P.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2010, 09:22:56 am
After toying with things a bit, here's how archipelago-esque maps are coming out:
Worlgen (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/islands.png) (Large PNG)

Not perfect, but the islands are looking a bit more interesting. Finally, time to finish off ocean/bay naming.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2010, 10:45:29 am
And ocean/sea and bay names are done! The difference between the two is determined by how many border tiles the body of water takes up. Of course, this can lead to some underestimating by the engine (for example, when a large island splits what is obviously an ocean in half at the border), but it's as good as I'm going to get without producing massive slowdowns on older CPUs. And at worst it'll just result in two bays/lakes instead of an ocean name.

Lakes have also been given a few new titles of British/Irish influence to go along with the somewhat gaelic/olde english flavor my pseudo-name generator seems to have acquired for human names so far (there's a possibility I'll rewrite the entire thing if I find somebody with more knowledge about language, but it does the trick for now).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Onwards and upwards!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Dwarf on January 04, 2010, 11:17:30 am
And ocean/sea and bay names are done! The difference between the two is determined by how many border tiles the body of water takes up. Of course, this can lead to some underestimating by the engine (for example, when a large island splits what is obviously an ocean in half at the border), but it's as good as I'm going to get without producing massive slowdowns on older CPUs. And at worst it'll just result in two bays/lakes instead of an ocean name.

Lakes have also been given a few new titles of British/Irish influence to go along with the somewhat gaelic/olde english flavor my pseudo-name generator seems to have acquired for human names so far (there's a possibility I'll rewrite the entire thing if I find somebody with more knowledge about language, but it does the trick for now).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Onwards and upwards!

You may want to replace that arctic desert with tundra or something like that. Technically, it may be a desert by some standards, but yeah...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2010, 11:46:46 am
Yep, I'd planned on doing something like that; I've just been trying to figure out the best way to tackle it. It might take splitting desert-naming into two completely separate searches, one for non-frozen and one for frozen - my main worry being that if I only have the current variety of search, deserts that are half-frozen will only end up being one type or the other instead of one of each.

ETA:
And here we go - here we have some nice examples of tundras and the newly-added caves, which are named and filed by the generator discreetly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ETA II:
After toning down that eye-searing blue a bit...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's better.

Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: alfie275 on January 04, 2010, 01:55:29 pm
This is awsome!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 04, 2010, 02:43:12 pm
Cannot wait for this to have some gameplay, it's really looking great.  If you don't mind me saying, the cave icon doesn't quite fit the ascii style; something a little more abstract would fit in better.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2010, 02:57:30 pm
Thanks for the comments, folks. :)

Another quick update before I'm off to work for the evening (yeah, after getting a second job my two month break became a two day break, but it's better than being poor!) - any coniferous/evergreen/mixed forests in the bottom quarter of the world now automatically become 'tropical forest', and any named forest with at least 1/2 of its tree tiles taken up by tropical forest squares is renamed to 'Jungle', as in the following pic. (As it turns out, palm trees are near-impossible to make out of a 10x10 pixel grid, especially for a non-artist.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
If you don't mind me saying, the cave icon doesn't quite fit the ascii style; something a little more abstract would fit in better.

Hm - this is something to think about, but I'm not sure what I'd want to use that would stand out enough amongst all of the surrounding clutter and color. I feel like something as simple as a '>' symbol would be difficult to see. The font set I'm using does come with some pre-drawn simpler looking triangles, though, which might do the trick.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Armok on January 04, 2010, 03:25:11 pm
why can't you  jus6t invert the heightmap then use the lakefinedr to find islands?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2010, 03:55:01 pm
You know, that might actually work. The lake-finder works by tracing water levels from just below the shoreline and seeing if it can connect them back on themselves or if they end up touching the worldmap edge - it wouldn't work for islands because if you try to do the same thing with an island, it will also consider a lake an island (since the land around an island goes in a circle and a computer isn't smart enough to recognize the difference).

If it works, I'll slaughter a small animal for you, Armok.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Armok on January 04, 2010, 04:08:13 pm
alternatively, you can add an extra test abaut if its an island or a lake: lakes have lower ground at evry point inside, islands have higher ground on evry tile inside. Now, the only problem is islands containing lakes, or lakes containing islands...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 04, 2010, 07:43:38 pm
If you aren't going to be certain that the outer ocean makes it all the way around the map,
 you should consider each tile of map edge on a given mass of water to be five to ten tiles of coast.
That way corner "bays" become oceans.

I'm very impressed with all of this, and I hope you stick with this ultimate project.

Who knows, if it ever gets good enough,
 you could make some money.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 05, 2010, 02:23:59 am
That way corner "bays" become oceans.

Actually, the bit of code that generates ocean/bay names already handles this - it differentiates bodies of water in three sizes (one big enough to be ocean, one bay, one lake) - by counting the total number of water tiles along the map edge. It runs from the top left corner of the map clockwise all the way around counting water tiles until it hits land tiles, then records the number of water tiles in a dictionary (and starts over as soon as it hits water again). Then it checks to see if the top left square was water and in both the first and last bodies, and if it was, it combines the two.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Alexhans on January 05, 2010, 07:40:12 am
posting to read it sometime... Looks very interesting.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 05, 2010, 01:18:41 pm
Cannot wait for this to have some gameplay, it's really looking great.

Seconded. I'd always wanted a SimChurch game, and this would provide it. I don't like the mechanic of Gods gaining power through worship, though I could just mod it out and provide a new mechanic (and besides, every god game has that mechanic, why mess with a good thing).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: florian on January 05, 2010, 05:19:07 pm
You said you are using Voronoi diagrams. What algorithm do you use to generate them?

I have to say this looks quite awesome.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 05, 2010, 07:18:36 pm
You said you are using Voronoi diagrams. What algorithm do you use to generate them?

The libtcod library actually comes with noise generators and a Voronoi diagram generator function, although they're pretty limited in scope. If you're interested in generating them separately, there are quite a few scripts in various languages available (such as this one (http://www.oxfish.com/python/voronoi.py)).

Quote
I don't like the mechanic of Gods gaining power through worship, though I could just mod it out and provide a new mechanic (and besides, every god game has that mechanic, why mess with a good thing).

Well, 'more power for your god' in this game directly translates to 'more ability for your god to imbue you/your followers with power'. I don't think there'll be any 'miracles' or similar devices in this game - gods will probably be restricted to acting solely through their followers. This makes more sense to me, anyway - if the gods could simply act directly in the mortal plane, they'd have no reason to care about followers.

This should ideally make toppling large, established religions very difficult, because the high-ranking priests and warriors will be able to stomp all over anyone who dares to attack them.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: FluffyToast J on January 05, 2010, 11:25:36 pm
But if you do manage to topple their religion, you get this warm giddy feeling in your gut. "I took over the second largest religion, yay ^_^! Now everybody loooooooooves me :3"

Maybe. I dunno, I'd be like that.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2010, 09:51:37 am
Off to another wonderful day of work, but I have a small surprise before I go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Islands: we gots 'em!

I wasn't able to get Armok's algorithm suggestion working any better than the original (it worked, but like the other, still too computationally expensive because there's more land than water). However, after a lot of cheating, I got the original to work by doing several error checks prior to approving an island. It results in ~95% accuracy or so, which seems like a fair amount.

Here's a shot of the entire world, genned with names (large 1.6m image):
Named Worldgen (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/worldgenpn.png)

You'll notice that some of the names overlap - this is peachy, because adventurers will be able to turn name types on/off with either a menu or by pressing predetermined keys. This means you'll be able to turn discovered desert names on and off, for example, by pressing 'D' or whatnot, freeing up your screen of clutter but allowing you to see the landmarks you want to.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Korbac on January 06, 2010, 11:30:11 am
This looks amazing, Lord Dullard! I hope all goes well for you. I wish you all the greatest success I can.

2 months off work? That must be a perk of the job.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on January 06, 2010, 01:52:55 pm
Will this game have win conditions? Such as ascendancy, or global domination?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2010, 05:23:52 pm
Will this game have win conditions? Such as ascendancy, or global domination?

I have some ideas about this, but it's a long way off. Suffice it to say I'd eventually like to see some kind of 'win condition' for the game that will allow players to post their character/game on a ladder, but I do *not* want it to necessarily end the game, which should be open-ended and have enough to do (between settlement/shrine building, dungeon delving, and perhaps even exploring other maps - though that's a long way off) to keep you busy indefinitely.

Quote
2 months off work? That must be a perk of the job.

Not really - I'm a poor college student who moonlights as a waiter, and the place I've been at for a couple of years closes down each January-February. This year I managed to land a second job the day after the break started, though, so... so much for that.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 06, 2010, 07:43:38 pm
Quote
Well, 'more power for your god' in this game directly translates to 'more ability for your god to imbue you/your followers with power'.

Now this is interesting. Of course, you'll still call it Power, but I'll privately view it as "Favor"; the God want followers, and is willing to reward the religion that gathers him followers by giving that religion a taste of his great and mighty power. Alternatively, if people stray from the religion, the God will withdraw his support for his religion as punishment.

(Still the main question of why gods need followers in the first place, but I'll put that down as ego.)

Good luck!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 06, 2010, 07:49:14 pm
The screenshots are cool. And I approve of the goals of the game.

I shall keep an eye on this.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Normandy on January 06, 2010, 08:07:11 pm
The only complaint I have is that there are no mountain ranges, and hence the world feels a little bit compressed, as if an island. Unless those mountains are really huge. Otherwise, I am really liking what I am seeing.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2010, 08:30:28 pm
The only complaint I have is that there are no mountain ranges, and hence the world feels a little bit compressed, as if an island. Unless those mountains are really huge. Otherwise, I am really liking what I am seeing.

Well, it's true that the worlds generated always feel smaller than they would be if I used a more traditional roguelike approach and used ^ symbols, et cetera - however, I don't think that would take advantage of the excellent libtcod library. The important thing to keep in mind will be that each tile of the map will be able to be expanded to, say, a 250 x 250 area - including mountain tiles. And there won't be no reason to learn to climb mountains and explore - ancient artifacts being one of the primary means of directly increasing your power or wealth.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Little on January 06, 2010, 08:36:28 pm
This looks great so far, putting it on my watch list!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Org on January 06, 2010, 08:47:28 pm
What do I do after worldgen? It wont let me do anything!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Jack_Bread on January 06, 2010, 09:04:20 pm
Look at what it made. :)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Org on January 06, 2010, 09:13:44 pm
Backspace. But when I hit continue, it wont do anything.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2010, 09:20:16 pm
Er... this is, as of yet, just a tech demo - and history generation still has to be undertaken before I start on gameplay.

There's a reason this is under 'creative projects' and not 'other games'.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Org on January 06, 2010, 09:25:22 pm
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I knew that.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Emperor_Jonathan on January 06, 2010, 09:59:15 pm
This sounds and looks fantastic so far, will keep an eye on this.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on January 06, 2010, 11:24:14 pm
Will it be possible to establish a cult around oneself? A cult of personality, to make you a god!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2010, 11:31:26 pm
I hadn't really considered it. At best it would have to be something like a ridiculously hard challenge mode, since you wouldn't be getting any of the benefits of being aided by a supernatural entity that other groups would.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Little on January 07, 2010, 04:01:27 am
I intend to use this to gen a world for a DnD match, so keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Jack_Bread on January 07, 2010, 04:19:22 am
Can't wait for gameplay. I want to worship a god of genocide. ;)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mendonca on January 07, 2010, 08:03:32 am
This sounds and looks fantastic so far, will keep an eye on this.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 07, 2010, 09:34:39 am
Well, I have begun the rather intimidating process of history generation, starting with the excessively morbid task of compiling lists of reasons for death of historical figures. What'll be more interesting is designing the engine to put all of the information pieces each figure will be attributed with into something meaningful, but before I start on that I want to slap together all of the needed types of information, so it may be several days before the next update.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 07, 2010, 11:24:24 am
McBob, Prophet of the Religion of Varji, sacrificed himself to the Gods.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Korbac on January 07, 2010, 02:43:46 pm
Here's some ways of dying, if that's what your looking for  ;D :

Generic Deaths (May be used when no specific info available)

Torn apart by wild beasts while questing/adventuring/wandering
Killed by a mortal enemy
Betrayed and backstabbed by his own kind
Drowned in a lake/river/ocean/the sea
Burned to death in a red hot fire
Fell into a crack formed by an earthquake
Smote by the divine powers of [god]
Died peacefully in sleep
Felt the harmful effects of unskilled architecture
Starved to a waif thin corpse
Poisoned to the core


Specific Deaths

Weapons
Hacked to pieces by a sword
Skewered on a spear
Chopped up by an axe
Destroyed by a halberd
Pierced through via javelin
Underhandedly murdered from behind with a concealed knife
Brains bashed out with a warhammer
Flattened by a mace
Struck by an arrow/crossbow bolt
Cleaved by a great axe
Annihilated with an artifact of great power
Surprised by a trap
Butchered by claw - gauntlets


Religious Deaths
Swallowed whole by the earth
Set alight by [god]
Set upon by fiends of [god]
Exploded in holy light
Gave the ultimate sacrifice to [god]
Erased from existence by [god]
Cursed to suffer from a black heart and a leaden soul until death
Suffered the inability to breathe
Was slaughtered by an angel of [god]
Had blood replaced with pus


Assassination Deaths
Was strangled in his/her/its sleep
Was fed poisoned bread and ale
Was pushed from a great height
Was thrown into a river
Had it coming/Was killed by an unknown agent/Didn't deserve to die (Undiscovered, 3 different versions for different popularity ratings)
Was attacked by a dangerous animal that shouldn't have been there
Was found with a bleeding hole in his throat
Was killed by his study chair


Illness Related Deaths
Suffered from a fatal case of gut worm
Had black blood
Suffered a deadly viral strain incurable by anyone
Had a killer migrane
Vomitted until dead
Coughed up his/her/its intestines
Turned to jelly as bones dissolved



More later :)

Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 07, 2010, 04:47:11 pm
Aren't you cheery?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Korbac on January 07, 2010, 05:03:43 pm
Incredibly.  ;D

I must say, I really like how your game is shaping up, Outcast Orange. I do like wide scale strategy games / sims.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 07, 2010, 05:53:43 pm
Incredibly.  ;D

I must say, I really like how your game is shaping up, Outcast Orange. I do like wide scale strategy games / sims.

I do believe you mean Lord Dullard.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: inteuniso on January 07, 2010, 07:50:00 pm
Oooo this is shaping up to be good. I can't wait until you get a working demo out.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 08, 2010, 12:41:26 pm
I'm slogging deeper into history gen day by day. It's a bit hard to figure out the best approach - to decide whether to first generate villages then populate them with original inhabitants, or to first create the inhabitants and have them found villages. I feel like it's a bit of a 'chicken and the egg' situation to code. I think I'm going to go with the 'original settlers found villages' plan, though, merely because it is more logically appealing to me.

Also, the island-finding/lake-finding algorithms have been improved to the point of being an order of magnitude faster, mostly because I discovered a more efficient way of calculating their positions completely by dumb luck. So the time to find lakes/islands has been reduced (on my PC, at least) from an average of ~30 seconds or so to an average of ~3 seconds or thereabouts - and it's far more accurate, to boot (I haven't seen an incorrect label yet).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 08, 2010, 12:49:39 pm
I'm slogging deeper into history gen day by day. It's a bit hard to figure out the best approach - to decide whether to first generate villages then populate them with original inhabitants, or to first create the inhabitants and have them found villages. I feel like it's a bit of a 'chicken and the egg' situation to code. I think I'm going to go with the 'original settlers found villages' plan, though, merely because it is more logically appealing to me.

Might be interesting to have different groups have different ideas on 'proper' places to settle. Let them wander a bit to find an acceptable spot. Might make for some interesting world-gen effects if you can have them interact at this stage. Old grudges, mixed tribes, that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 08, 2010, 01:14:33 pm
I think either method should be fine.  You could spend a few thousand years in world gen evolving human brains and culture so they get up to feudal or classical civilizations, but the end result will probably look exactly the same.  On the other hand, simulating all of that would allow your active gods to have more of a direct influence in the shaping of society, which would be very unique.  For example, an expansive desert civilization makes very little sense in our world, but if a god granted them some means of creating potable water (like a magical urn), you would now have a scenario where taking the civ's artifact would basically force them to collapse.

Thinking about that brings back bad, Civ-related memories.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 08, 2010, 01:39:58 pm
Thinking about that brings back bad, Civ-related memories.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pirates can spawn from your own people.
You think they are their own civilization?
They had to come from somewhere.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 10, 2010, 10:41:51 am
I took a little detour from history gen to experiment with generating rivers (I know, I keep saying terrain gen is over then going back and changing things).

It was more complicated than I thought, because essentially it required writing a simple pathfinding algorithm. I don't quite have it finished yet, but I've got it nearly-working and I'm going to plan on adding a few more complex details so that the rivers generated are more natural looking (since an ideal pathfinder tends to take the very shortest route possible, which more often than not ends up looking rather boring).

I'd probably have it done by now, but I went out with coworkers last night and had a bit too much 'Dwarven Ale'... oi. Now I understand the need to constantly stay underground... blasted sun...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Willfor on January 10, 2010, 12:05:41 pm
This is where the height map can help you a lot. Have the rivers always flow downhill from their source, and they will always eventually find a body of water. Or make one themselves.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Nadaka on January 10, 2010, 12:24:39 pm
This has a few river running resources,
http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:fractal-river-basins

The last link caught my eye, but I am not sure if it can be adapted to your terrain generation.
http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/mountains.gi93.pdf
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 10, 2010, 08:37:47 pm
Thinking about that brings back bad, Civ-related memories.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pirates can spawn from your own people.
You think they are their own civilization?
They had to come from somewhere.


Actually, I believe they are their civilization. You can generate new barbarian units by finding those "huts" for example.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 10, 2010, 08:43:17 pm
Actually, I believe they are their civilization. You can generate new barbarian units by finding those "huts" for example.

Nope.
Barbarians are definitely not a civilization.
Neither are pirates.
They are fun little side features to make the game interesting.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Djohaal on January 10, 2010, 09:18:15 pm
Certanly sounds interesting. Will your deities perform miracles on your behalf? This reminds me a lot ol' good actraiser!  ;D

Try using monte carlo approaches to those worldgen parameters as they are one-shot solutions, while monter carlo is a slow method it often produces good results...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Rafal99 on January 11, 2010, 12:05:01 am
This has a few river running resources,
http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:fractal-river-basins

The last link caught my eye, but I am not sure if it can be adapted to your terrain generation.
http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/mountains.gi93.pdf

Oh nice. I was just looking for something about river generation for my own project. Thanks!


Edit: This whole site is awesome! So much great stuff to learn there. How could I not find it earlier.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Avaris on January 12, 2010, 06:11:25 pm
Awesome! When we can expect new update?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 12, 2010, 06:23:29 pm
Now. :)

Rivers/streams are finished. The  algorithm that determines whether they're a tributary of another river (and consequently whether they should be a river or a smaller stream) took me a few days to sludge through. Trust me when I say that it made writing an A* pathfinder seem like making a 'hello world' program. In fact, at this point it barely resembles what I'd originally envisioned its format would be - but it does seem to eliminate just about all of the visual artifacts and errors.

Here are a couple of sample maps, one with a larger continent and several islands and one that's a vast landmass with many mountains. I've also included the named versions of the maps so you can all see how the final phases before history gen are going to end up looking (remember, even though some names overwrite one another this isn't an issue since in gameplay you'll be able to switch types of labels on/off).

Warning: These files are all quite large (1-2mb):
Sample World 1 (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp1.png)
Sample World 1 (with names) (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp1n.png)
Sample World 2 (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp2.png)
Sample World 2 (with names) (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp2n.png)

Edit:
It's probably worth noting that rivers are named discreetly like caves to avoid cluttering up the worldgen screen.

Edit no. 2:
And here's what happens if the number of rivers to be generated is cranked way up (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp3.png) (from ~150 to ~350). This will never produce an error even in maps without enough mountains to create more rivers, since after a while the algorithm will realize it has no more possible river source locations and give up. However, creating this many rivers does take a while (20-30ish seconds for my PC, probably a LOT longer on a laptop). Eventually things like this will probably be determined by an init file so that individual users can choose whether or not they want to bother.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2010, 06:26:12 pm
Most impressive!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 12, 2010, 07:07:09 pm
For the benefit of those with TL;DR syndrome or who don't want to download gigantic image files, here's a much smaller screenshot of a segment of a world:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Nadaka on January 12, 2010, 08:26:42 pm
Not sure due to low number of samples so far, but I think it looks a bit better when you cranked the number of rivers up. In the previous images there were a few big flat green patches that were very far from any rivers and several lakes that didn't have any feeders.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 12, 2010, 09:03:49 pm
Yeah, I noticed this as well. I've set the number of rivers to be generated by default at a fairly high number that seems to create consistently pleasing results. Additionally, I made a couple of visual tweaks that (hopefully) improve the overall appearance of rivers/streams - namely, they darken the surrounding tile just a bit (I found this keeps them from looking 'pasted-on') and their last tile will no longer protrude into whatever body of water they terminate in.

Here's a quick example: Sample World (http://fallout-mux.wikidot.com/local--files/files/samp4.png)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 12, 2010, 11:31:59 pm
Probably the last update before I crash out for the night. I lowered the required terrain height for river source generation, so maps are now turning out something like so:

Map (http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/samp5.png)

It's not quite as realistic as having all rivers originate from mountains, but it covers a much greater area of the map and generally looks better. But I've been delayed by terrain for too long (yet again). Back to work on history gen!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 13, 2010, 01:13:20 am
This is one hell of a map generator.
It certainly looks like a graphical version of DF.

I am wondering if you will be able to contain yourself and limit the game to a religious war,
 and not a fortress sim.

;D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 13, 2010, 01:26:26 am
I'm not planning on having it be a 'fortress sim' - you'll be too busy exploring ruins and fighting pitched battles to spend the kind of ultra-detailed attention to design DF does. Cult will eventually have more of an Unreal World-ish sort of craft system. The building system will be considerably more expansive than URW's, though, allowing you to construct multi-leveled structures with the aid of your followers. I'd like to give players reasons to go and build these things - for example, building shrines will help spread your religion, or building a bridge between two continents will allow you to cross an army without requiring a ship. I have quite a few ideas about a more 'fluid' real-time roguelike world, as well - the battle system should ideally feel a little bit like... well, if you took Dragon Age's ability to pause and micromanage, made the battles more on the scale of Mount and Blade, and then translated it to text.

Of course, this is all a long way off, but I plan on finishing this project.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on January 13, 2010, 07:17:57 am
When you say Unreal World, crafting and building in the same paragraph, that makes me cringe a bit.

Please tell me that deforestation is not the only option to build a monument.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 13, 2010, 09:18:52 am
The goal should be the same range of craftable items you see in URW, although necessarily a lot of them will be of a different nature (you probably won't be making many fur mittens - more along the lines of metal gauntlets). The skill system that governs what you can make will most likely be very different, however.

As for building:

Quote
The building system will be considerably more expansive

So no, you won't have to deforest everything.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 13, 2010, 09:19:45 am
It all sounds very interesting.
I'll definitely be trying this out at every possibility.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 13, 2010, 09:39:36 am
A quick pre-work update:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rivers now fade seamlessly into one another so the colors won't look jarring. I have tomorrow off, so I'll likely spend most of it continuing what I've started with basic civilization setup.

ETA:
And thanks again to everyone very much for comments and feedback. I know I don't respond to every post, but I appreciate them a lot.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Jack_Bread on January 13, 2010, 09:47:44 am
It's looking great! ;D Can't wait to see civs.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: brainfire on January 14, 2010, 11:53:03 am
This is relevant to my interests.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Avaris on January 14, 2010, 02:15:01 pm
Unreal World-ish craft system makes me a bit afraid of that notorious "wooden bowl economy". In URW you could just create dozens of trinkets to buy everything you want. Well, I guess that problem is in DF too with all these worthless andesite earrings...  :-\

What are you going to do to avoid that?

And how trading would work anyway? How detailed economy is going to be?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 14, 2010, 04:37:37 pm
Implementing supply and demand shouldn't be too difficult, although it's not trivial.  If individuals (or communities, seeing as how you'd probably want to abstract some of this) have needs, resources, and the means to convert those resources into goods, a simple supply-demand model should fall into place.  Things like government intervention and resource distribution are trickier, but not impossible.  I'd be shocked if Lord Dullard went to all the trouble of making such a detailed world, and then ignored economics (which I would say are more important/a precursor to politics).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 14, 2010, 05:06:10 pm
Those worrying about getting a URW-like economy are confusing craft with economy. Let me put it more plainly: I want the player to have a variety of creatable goods similar to that of URW or DF, but the production of these goods will be handled far differently than either of those games. I don't want to say a whole lot more on that subject as of yet because I still have a lot of ideas to sort out, but let's not get too much into speculation or comparison before any actual details are even hammered out (especially when these are matters that are going to have to wait until more important building blocks are coded first).

I will say this, though - not all economies in all civilizations will work the same way. The URW 'wooden bowl economy', as it has been dubbed, might well WORK for/on some civs. This is a good thing! What do you think large economies (like Britain, Spain, et cetera) did when they encountered less developed economies (Native Americans, African tribes, and so on)? They traded them tons of worthless trinkets for less easily producable/more desired goods like furs, foodstuffs, exotic gems and spices... the list goes on. So in a sense the 'wooden bowl economy' actually works, it just works in the wrong way.

See, more advanced societies should also ideally exist to contrast URW's problem, and this is what I'll be going for. You might be able to fool a bunch of hillbilly yokels into giving you their wealth for some fancily-woven blankets, but you sure as hell aren't going to fool a blacksmith in the fantasy equivalent of London that way. He'll want cash - cold, hard cash, or perhaps similar goods of an equal or greater value that he's used to dealing with and can reasonably estimate the value of, such as swords or armor or (you guessed it) a valuable artifact from an ancient civilization or temple. And he might only accept certain types of cash - not all nations should use the same currency, although exchanges should be possible (probably at a loss to the player in many cases).

And now I'm rambling. Back to work.  ;D

Edit:
And as a note, you might be wondering why you'll even need to be trading Bob the Blacksmith for equipment if you can just go and yank it out of the undead hands of some Big Bad in a forgotten tomb. The answer is simple: you can reasonably expect to deck yourself and a few top-tier followers out that way, but you certainly won't be able to equip scores of followers in artifact armor/weapons without spending ungodly amounts of time playing the game. Count on getting one artifact out of a dungeon on average - and maybe a couple pieces of high-tier non-artifact equipment. At some point you'll need to bite the bullet and head to an economy that is able to produce high-mid level goods so that you can outfit your army properly.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 14, 2010, 10:45:39 pm
Side Project: Language Generation

Now that I'm starting on the framework of civilizations, it's time to start taking language a little more seriously. I have no intentions of developing functioning languages for each civ, but it would be incredibly handy to have the names generated for each civilization be at least somewhat unique to the civ and also sound phonetically similar enough to let the player suspend disbelief about the plausibility of the names within a real lingual context.

I think I'm going to take a bit of a detour and try my hand at designing an language name generator - I'm not sure exactly what else to call it. Essentially, I want the generator to decide which consonants and combinations of consonants and vowels will be common to a language and generate a large list of appropriate name prefixes and suffixes based on those imaginary lingual preferences. The end result should be the ability of the generator to create a very large variety of naming schemes that sound at least somewhat believable but are actually created on the fly. This will also get me out of typing in huge naming-scheme lists which, while guaranteed to work, would also get really boring after a while and would offer only a very limited variety of naming schemes for different civs/different worlds.

Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 15, 2010, 12:34:39 am
Sounds all very nice and fancy.
I am becoming more and more excited about this project.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 15, 2010, 12:50:11 am
In my sig is a link to the perl script I wrote to generate language files for DF. It's kind of a hack, but you may find it useful. Inspiration if nothing else.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 15, 2010, 12:54:05 am
Interesting! I'll definitely take a look at that - I'll most likely be posting the generator I end up making as a separate download entirely so that anyone who might find it useful can take a look at the source code.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 15, 2010, 01:06:09 am
You really need an avatar.
I have trouble distinguishing between posters without it.
Sort of like how you recognize people by their face before their name.

I've always wanted to take a crack at a phonetics creator.
I'd like to also make a symbol generator to go along with a language, based on the sounds.
So a really guttural language would have jagged characters.

Then you could actually have intelligence be a useful stat,
 since the subtitles for words you were familiar with would show up,
 but the others would be empty.
So you could only get the gist of the writing on the plaque,
 but not the full message or a badly translated version,
 where some words with multiple meanings show up incorrectly.

Some day...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: george on January 15, 2010, 01:13:16 am
coincidentally the developer of UR just announced a name generator he developed for libtcod -- could be educational.

http://umbrarumregnum.110mb.com/?q=node/206
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Jotaf on January 18, 2010, 07:12:46 pm
Yes, and it will be a "standard" module in the next release of libtcod. It seems to be highly configurable, but to go as far as "different proceduraly generated languages" you'd have to inspect the SVN repo to see if the potential is there, or ask Mingos (as I'm sure this is a desireable feature).

Good luck, I'm following this with enthusiasm ;D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 18, 2010, 08:25:31 pm
Quote
coincidentally the developer of UR just announced a name generator he developed for libtcod -- could be educational.

Interesting stuff - I doubt he and I have the same eventual goals, though (although it is pretty amusing that we both happened to start on the same type of project in more or less the same general time period). I'd like this particular generator to be as flexible as possible, up to and including eventually creating pseudo-languages.

I said I'd make the language name scheme generator open source, and although I won't be updating this topic much more, here is the early blueprint for anyone who's interested:

http://fallout-mux.wdfiles.com/local--files/files/langnames.py

What exactly does it do so far? Well, here are a couple of screenshots of usage:
 
Names from a random language:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And another:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And a third:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

These were generated randomly one after another.

The second language probably scored very high on the 'dissimilar to English' variable, which makes it favor unusual consonant combinations that are rarely/never found in English (as a result, some languages will end up sounding Lovecraftian).

==========

Edit: I toned down the crazy-arsed-ness a bit. Code testers should now find that language schemes tend to sound more congruous but still just as unique and (at least relatively) identifiable.

Some languages will not use consonant/vowel clusters at all, or only use them in certain places. From toying around I've managed to get very asiatic-sounding naming schemes.

A sample, two languages (that sound semi-Scandinavian and semi-African, respectively):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

==========

This is a VERY early version of the code. Eventually it will probably contain more advanced features that will allow users to prune out undesirable sound combinations, etc. It's also possible I'll add English-to-<Language> dictionary generation in the style of DF to allow for some meaning behind various naming combinations. For now, it'll serve its purpose while I move on with Cult.

Sooner or later I'll be posting a link to a development forum from here. Until then, thank you all for your interest and enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Dwarf on January 22, 2010, 05:20:04 pm
Bump?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 22, 2010, 05:59:56 pm
Lord Dullard?

What gives?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 22, 2010, 06:56:00 pm
It's werid to have people declare a project dead after a few days of no updates.

Then I remember that flying island mmorpg project a while back. What happened to it?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 22, 2010, 07:01:26 pm
There are multiple "flying island" projects around here?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Jack_Bread on January 23, 2010, 11:06:03 am
Everyone.
This. (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48106.msg979296#msg979296)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 23, 2010, 03:58:06 pm
Wow.

I don't have much to say to that.

...


:' (
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 23, 2010, 05:27:18 pm
Quote
And for anyone who's been keeping up with 'Cult', I'll post a link in that topic once development is a bit further and I'm comfortable setting up a site with a forum for continuing development.

For your answer to when we'll expect a reply about "Cult".
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: x2yzh9 on February 06, 2010, 05:37:36 pm
Bumpity Bumpity bumpity, bump, bump bump-bump bump.

Bump.

This dead Lord Dullard?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Pillow_Killer on February 06, 2010, 05:58:34 pm
...Tried looking on previous page?
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48106.msg979296#msg979296 (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48106.msg979296#msg979296)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on February 06, 2010, 06:09:51 pm
Lord Dullard (under a different name) is somewhat active on the libtcod forums, although I don't think he has posted anything new there, either.  He did inspire jice, the creator of libtcod, to start working on world generation algorithms.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 23, 2010, 03:06:14 pm
Posting here to let those who were keeping track of the game know what's going on with Cult for now and in the immediate future -

The game's been shelved due in large part to my retreat from pretty much all online activity in recent months, but I expect to return to development soon. I got stuck rather badly on civilization generation - not code-wise, but in terms of actual mechanics and how I wanted civilizations to work and exist within the overall structure of the experience. I've done some serious rethinking about a lot of the features and I may be changing them up quite heavily. A lot of the importance that has been placed on religious aspects may be lessened in order to more heavily emphasize the first-person interactions and roguelike/RPG elements. Cult will continue to be a game about kingdom-building, armies, questing, dungeon-delving, and gods... but I think Cult may come to stand for Cult of Personality instead of the way I've been looking at it up until now.

Right now, I'm going to keep most of the ideas I've got churning around to myself, but I'll probably post an outline for some of them soon, once I get into some of the code involved.

A thank you goes out to Toady, by the way, for reminding me that I should get back to this.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on March 25, 2010, 02:59:36 am
I will always follow this thread, Lord Dullard!

NEVAR FORGIT.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on March 25, 2010, 08:01:16 am
I will always follow this thread, Lord Dullard!

NEVAR FORGIT.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on March 25, 2010, 10:27:20 am
I appreciate your update as well.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Brons on April 03, 2010, 10:34:17 am
Would you mind releasing the source? Not only because that might enable to community to continue working on it but also because I'd like to learn about this thing called python :).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 07, 2010, 09:23:46 pm
Cult is officially back in business. I finally got over my mental block with civs - they've been added and I'm now having them spread and populate the world map. Pretty soon they'll be clashing and making peace with each other. Each civ will start out with a wide variety of characteristics that will determine its societal structure, customs, preferred mode of living, architecture, and so on.

Screenshots soon.

Quote
Would you mind releasing the source? Not only because that might enable to community to continue working on it but also because I'd like to learn about this thing called python .

Sorry, but I have no intentions of releasing the game source at this time (and probably not ever unless I decide to completely drop it, which I don't see happening).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Hippoman on May 07, 2010, 09:25:28 pm
Holy Shit.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on May 07, 2010, 10:12:20 pm
YAYYYYYYY
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Pathos on May 07, 2010, 10:37:18 pm
I am heavily in support of this thread. And I am watching it like silly.

Also, don't drop the religious thing, that's what caught my eye. :<
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on May 08, 2010, 12:08:27 am
Cool! Looking forward to see screen shots when you get a chance.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Randall Octagonapus on May 08, 2010, 12:42:33 pm
This does look pretty awesome
I really like how the maps look
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on May 10, 2010, 09:55:27 am
If nothing else, it could just be an improved version of CultureSim.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Pathos on June 18, 2010, 02:25:27 pm
Anything going on here? ???
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Pillow_Killer on June 18, 2010, 02:45:51 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48106.msg979296#msg979296
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Hippoman on June 18, 2010, 07:47:35 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48106.msg979296#msg979296

Actually. He came back. Look up. But it doesn't matter, In a different thread he announced it was over. Completely until further notice.

Probably forever.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: The Frivolous Linguist on July 19, 2010, 10:47:10 pm
Any chance we can make... kool aid for our followers?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 30, 2010, 03:27:59 pm
Cult doth return with the goods.

Where was I, again?

World - Before Civilization Spread:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

World - Post Civilization Spread:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Everything currently works just fine and dandy, and I'm ready to start getting complicated with intercivilization affairs, various religions, population issues, and the creation of new towns/cities as population increases.

Current problem:
While everything works, the algorithm to physically spread civilizations takes a LONG time (at least on my semi-outdated dual core processor). Looking for ways to reduce the time required for the algorithm to work hasn't proven particularly effective. Allowing the user to predefine (or possibly manually halt, as per the DF worldgen) the number of years/'turns' taken during worldgen and civ spreading is starting to look like a more and more attractive solution, but I'll try to find something a bit more idealistic in the meantime.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on July 30, 2010, 04:58:38 pm
Yay!

*Purrs and romps in circles*

I am excited to see a good project come back to life.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on July 30, 2010, 05:00:11 pm
Nifty!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on July 30, 2010, 09:38:55 pm
As the great Balrog would say...

HUZZAH!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 31, 2010, 11:58:56 am
Civilizations now establish new villages/cities/castles as they spread. The castles, at least for now, are strictly military installations - though later they'll be wrapped up in world history/legends and will probably be able to eventually turn into large-scale settlements.

After some more tweaking I'm going to start on civ relationships. The 'spread' phase needs to be altered so that civilizations can begin to war with each other and conquer territory (I can't imagine any world in which 20+ civilizations remain completely peaceful for long). The relative militarism/hostility of each tribe should affect the number of troops (and thus success in conquering other civs) available to them.

I'll also want to begin tying in actual historical/legend generation to this process, which will mean getting a little more in-depth - though I'm not sure whether I should wait until after all of the actual coding processes are in before delving into this stuff. Instinct tells me it would be better to start with thematic depth as a key element, which will mean working on the randomization of history almost immediately in order to avoid having to try to decipher very complicated code algorithms later on (when I've forgotten the relevance of half of what I'm doing right now).

Some visual candy:

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/worldgenpc-1.png)

Despite photobucket's annoying insistence on resizing everything, you should be able to make out the small village, city, and castle icons spread across the map.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 31, 2010, 03:24:59 pm
Just some quick brainstorming while I'm working on civilization traits. Some food for thought (suggestions are welcome though they may or may not be used).

I'm thinking that each civilization will have a set of inversely related traits/statistics, as follows:
Magic and Technology
Militancy and Culture
Commerce and Spirituality

I realize there are plenty of arguments that this is oversimplifying, but using this sort of setup carries the immense advantage of allowing me to balance (relatively speaking, at least) some of the basic traits of each civ, allowing players to choose different civilizations (if they don't start their own) according to playstyle.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on July 31, 2010, 08:58:56 pm
It's looking awesome.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: inteuniso on July 31, 2010, 09:53:24 pm
Will civilizations be able to spread across water?

Also, will there be a constantly changing territory while you play the game? I know it's a bit much to wish for, but it would be awesome if you're converting the heretics in a town that suddenly became your nation's enemy.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 31, 2010, 10:39:00 pm
Civilizations currently cannot spread across water. I think I'll probably keep it that way, because otherwise you start to run into problems with civilizations spreading to extremely unlikely/nonsensical locations on the world map. However, once they start to war with each other, they should start to take over territories on other landmasses - assuming the invading civilization has naval technology (which not all will).

As for changing territory during gameplay, it's likely to be a side-effect feature of the way passage of time will work in-game, but I can't promise anything yet. Too much still needs to be fleshed out.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on August 02, 2010, 11:02:44 pm
If I could nit-pick a bit, the problem I have with militancy versus culture, is that militancy is a culture. Maybe culture should be called self expression?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 03, 2010, 12:21:47 am
@chaoticag: Not sure 'self expression' really fits the bill. The term 'culture' brings much more easily recognizable gaming themes to mind (i.e. cultural warfare between states). I can understand your nitpick, but I'd rather use a term that's more fitting for civilization-scale traits. Anything other than self-expression come to mind?

I've taken a bit of a detour on the worldgen process to start coding up a rudimentary 'World Atlas' that will allow players to browse information/history about each generated and saved world. I think I'll be needing it for debugging purposes soon anyhow, so it was a relatively necessary step (for the near future, if not immediately).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Armok on August 03, 2010, 10:33:03 am
Maybe you mean culturedness? Or civility?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lap on August 03, 2010, 03:51:04 pm
I'm really hoping there is more focus on management and overall strategy than individual dungeon crawling. There are plenty of pure dungeon crawls I could play if I wanted to focus on that, but there are very few that focus on the bigger picture. Looking at the similar dichotomy of dwarf fortress's adventure/fortress mods I think that time and effort spent on the actual fortress part has a far better payoff.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 04, 2010, 02:14:31 pm
Maybe you mean culturedness? Or civility?

Well, we're delving into semantics here, but the short answer is no. The first two definitions of 'culture':

cul·ture [kuhl-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun
1.
the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.
that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.

@Lap:

There's likely to be a significant focus on dungeon crawling, although it should be a party experience as much as an individual one - but it'll hardly be the sole focus if the game shapes up similarly at all to what I have in mind for it. I suppose the balance between kingdom management and individual questing should be roughly comparable to the sort of balance found in 'Actraiser' (though with completely different and far more complex gameplay, hopefully!) - i.e., both aspects are important to the overall goal. Perhaps a better comparison would be to some of the more in-depth Mount & Blade mods, where kingdom management becomes important but still depends on individual fighting skill and troop management.

At any rate, if you're worried that the game will mostly just be an exceptionally randomized roguelike, that's not what I intend. The roguelike attributes of the game should not outbalance any of the other aspects - they should merely add their own type of 'fun' to the mix while allowing players good at roguelike mechanics an edge (besides acting as nostalgic flavor for those of us who are fond of crawls).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: maxicaxi on August 05, 2010, 12:42:42 am
I like civility as a counterpoint to military
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nuker w on August 05, 2010, 07:39:14 am
Posting to watch. Also, just a general question, what code is this in? (feel free to not reply to it, just wondering)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 05, 2010, 12:18:08 pm
I like civility as a counterpoint to military

I don't mind 'civility'. Since it's been suggested by a couple people, I suppose I could make the switch.

@nuker w:
The game is written entirely in Python.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nuker w on August 05, 2010, 11:07:04 pm
Python? Wow, nice job.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 06, 2010, 11:20:29 am
Making quite a lot of progress on the World Atlas functions.

Pretty soon I should be able to have a rudimentary version up and available for use. Additionally, now that half-genned worlds are saveable and I can pick up progress where I've left off in the worldgen process, work on testing any new code implementations should be sped up considerably. By which I mean 'no more waiting five minutes for the worldgen process to complete before testing one new line of code'.

Also, black coffee is liquid goodness.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on August 06, 2010, 04:13:59 pm
Also, black coffee is liquid goodness.

True dat.

I don't need no pussy milk or cream!

I just need sugar. Lots of it.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 07, 2010, 09:55:27 am
Progress continues. I should have been doing laundry and going to the bank today, but I've been coding instead. Oops...

I've got most of the framework for the World Atlas menu in now; mostly from this point on it will just be a matter of adding availability to content as content is created.

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/watlas.jpg)

I also added a LOT of variability to the various world-drawing functions, allowing small segments of any world to be drawn into a flexible on-screen space on the fly. This'll allow me to add handy little screenshots of the various in-game locations to the Atlas, as well as giving me some leeway later on for crap like treasure maps and the like (assuming there are ever treasure maps, but that's one thing that comes to mind).

At this point I should probably be working on allowing civs to war with each other and conquer territory during worldgen, so I'm going to try to get started on that this morning. Also, civs need to have a LOT of detail added; right now they're pretty much just a list of names with a few random variables tacked on. At some point I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start compiling huge lists of items, creatures, and various other crap to determine what sort of imagery each civ will use, what type of stuff they produce and export/import, yada yada.

But I'm procrastinating on that one for as long as possible.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lap on August 07, 2010, 04:41:38 pm
The GUI is very smooth for a roguelike. Good choice of font and colors. Well done.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 08, 2010, 10:31:22 am
Thanks to everyone for the feedback, suggestions, and comments. I know I can't overstate it enough, but it's all very much appreciated.

Okay, here's some crack --- er, candy -- for folks:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The first screenshot is a listing of world nations in the particular world I generated for that shot; the other is a centered view of one of the nations ('Oakrite'). The second will probably be cleaned up more after I get home from work today, with colorized territory and towns/castles on display. Most of the menu options at this point are still defunct, but I'll be working on them as I work on worldgen; primarily I just want to get the Atlas working to the point that it'll display civ relationships and historical battles/territorial disputes so that I can check to make sure my code is functioning properly without printing tedious debug stuff to the shell.

Shouldn't take me long to get to that point; civs now develop relationships with each based on how similar their cultures are. There's an element of randomness to culture generation now, so it's possible for civilizations to score quite high in almost all areas (though the odds of rolling such scores are extremely low).

All the framework for wars to start and territorial disputes to be settled is also in place, I've just got to code in the actual switching-of-ownership, which shouldn't be too hard (I know I'm going to be eating my own words here).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lap on August 08, 2010, 12:31:26 pm
I'm really interested in learning about the rich history and culture of nation 18.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on August 08, 2010, 11:44:15 pm
I'm awaiting this with bated breath.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: maxicaxi on August 09, 2010, 01:37:16 am
I'm really interested in learning about the rich history and culture of nation 18.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 09, 2010, 12:15:34 pm
World Atlas territory colorization + city displays are up and functional. Additionally, the world drawing function has been made even more configurable; individual functions like river-drawing, terrain-drawing, city-drawing, territory-drawing, etc., etc. can now be turned on and off through individual arguments that are fed to the overarching DrawWorld() function. Eventually this will allow players to display only what they want on the world map (within reason) - meaning they'll be able to switch off different location names, features, territorial colors, and so forth. And they'll be able to do it all through very easy 'on/off' menu manipulation.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Naturally, I ran into a plethora of bugs while setting all of this up, which is why I still haven't started on territorial disputes.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 09, 2010, 12:27:51 pm
To-do Stuff:

1. Territorial Back-and-Forth

This is the current biggie. Nations need to start warring with each other during the early stages of worldgen. Once all corners of the (reachable) map have been covered by one civ or another, they need to continue warring, occasionally make peace, and so forth. The war/peace process should be relatively complicated. Many parts of it will tie into no. 2 on this list (more on that to come). Nations should be able to cede territory, towns, artifacts, places of religious relevance, or castles in order to barter their way into peace treaties. Peace treaties should be contractual with set time limits. Reneging on a peace treaty should cause trust with ALL other nations (and thus relations with all other nations) to deteriorate, and should be an action taken only by the most hostile civs. Successfully completing the terms of a peace treaty should cause relations on both sides to boost considerably, and thus the likelihood of war to between two nations to decrease. Allied nations should consider going to war for the sake of their allies, causing WWI-style chain wars. Records should be kept of all such going-ons, with a fairly detailed backstory being created in the process for the purposes of populating the World Atlas with information. Civs should set up trade agreements once the rudiments of economy are in place.

2. Worldgen Events

Next on the list. This should cover everything from historical battle events (heroes becoming distinguished in battle and making their way into the 'People' lists, numbers of deaths and results of the battles, any significant events that happened DURING the battles (a huge storm stopped both sides? intervention by a god(dess)?), etc. Adventurers should be able to find artifacts, uncover ancient shrines, and bring heretofore-unworshipped gods into the world (or back into it). Civilizations should change government types during revolution, or experience religious shifts, so on. Cults and/or paramilitary groups (i.e. Knights Templar-style orders) should arise and attempt to form new nations or gain power over existing ones. Natural disasters should occur and affect population and economy.

Lots more stuff to go in here, and all of it will take time to chew through, but these are some of the 'moving forward'-type goals. Since a lot of them are simply flavor, I should be able to pop many of them out in relatively quicks succession. OTOH, since others depend on their relevant systems being coded (i.e. the religious segments of code), they'll take a while longer to go up.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on August 09, 2010, 12:32:41 pm
Awesome. Can't wait until you've got a playable demo out! (Even if it's just of the world-gen and read histories sort)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 11, 2010, 11:26:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Relations are all configured; civs are ready to start warring. I'll be working on that today.

I added another little function to the Atlas that allows you to display a miniaturized version of the world map displaying civ relationships for any given nation (displayed by the colors as seen in the first screenshot). Currently civs tend to generate in the slightly sub-neutral to friendly range, but this'll change quickly once the civilizations start to interact more openly during history generation. More hostile nations should start to develop feuds pretty early on. I have a suspicion that I'm going to have to take measures to prevent less-hostile civs from ganging up and completely obliterating warmongering civs. Likewise, warmongering civs might have a nasty tendency to form alliances with other militant countries.

For a comparison of the mini-map to existing political borders, see the following pic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 14, 2010, 02:46:08 am
Road bump.

New computer is 64-bit architecture. Libtcod only supports win32 for Python, so far as I know.

Hrm...
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 14, 2010, 10:26:35 pm
Road bump cleared. After fiddling with a number of libraries and testing several different configurations, I discovered I can get everything up and running as long as I drop the ActivePython developer distribution I was using and stick with the basic Python 2.6 distribution. Apparently there was some kind of conflict between two separate tkinter libraries while using both which never cropped up on my other comp - probably something to do with the difference between 32 and 64-bit systems. I can run the 32-bit distribution just fine and dandy, though, so it's completely compatible with libtcod.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on August 15, 2010, 12:04:19 pm
This looks really awesome.
I am very happy to see this thread progress.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on August 15, 2010, 05:28:24 pm
This looks really awesome.
I am very happy to see this thread progress.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 16, 2010, 10:26:27 am
I've been a bit lazy about coding for the past couple of days. After getting my new computer set up, I couldn't resist the urge to start a Dwarf Fortress.

Getting 100+ FPS on maps with near-vertical cliffs and volcanic calderas? Awesome. It'll be even better once liquid cooling is here and I can overclo---

Eh-ehm. Anyway, back to being productive; I'll try to get more coding done today, and hopefully get civilizations clashing actively with each other. I've been trying to figure out exactly how I want to organize all of the dictionaries for historical events, because I'll want them to be sortable not only by related entities (whether civ, individual person, location, or whatever), but also by date, other related events, and so forth. They'll also need to fit neatly into the same format that all the OTHER types of events do.

Ideally, I'd eventually like the World Atlas to be 'browsable' in an almost wiki-like fashion, with different events, location, figures, and civilizations all referenced/cross-linked to each other in their separate entries. Browsing the Atlas should feel natural and seamless, and hopefully I can add enough randomization and depth to make the various entries seem unique and as un-clonelike as possible.

Eventually the actions of the player character in the world should also be referenced in the same manner.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Acanthus117 on August 16, 2010, 05:24:07 pm
I am loving this project!

Keep up the awesome work, Dullard!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on August 20, 2010, 03:06:31 pm
It's back! Awesome! It looks great so far.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Little on August 21, 2010, 12:37:53 am
This looks really awesome.
I am very happy to see this thread progress.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: newobj on August 24, 2010, 11:00:37 pm
Lord Dullard, how are you taking those epic mega large worldmap screenshots? I'm a libtcod user and wasn't sure if there was an easier way than just opening an epic mega large window. Too bad you can't seem to take screenshots of offscreen consoles. (?)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 25, 2010, 01:31:31 pm
Lord Dullard, how are you taking those epic mega large worldmap screenshots? I'm a libtcod user and wasn't sure if there was an easier way than just opening an epic mega large window. Too bad you can't seem to take screenshots of offscreen consoles. (?)

They're not screenshots, they're exported images. Libtcod makes it possible to save any created image as a file, which you can then simply save. I have a designated folder for worldgen screenshots so that players will be able to see their worlds at-a-glance post-worlgen if they want to. To save space, the files just overwrite each other upon any new worldgen.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: newobj on August 25, 2010, 06:56:50 pm
Ah, I just realized that you can render any console into an image. That makes sense. Thanks!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: maxicaxi on September 03, 2010, 09:28:01 am
whats up?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 03, 2010, 01:34:35 pm
Wee bit of downtime on coding. BFBC2 has been eating my free time lately. I can't resist putting my new system to use.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on September 04, 2010, 11:40:54 am
In dwarf fortress, different races have different ethics and traditions. It would be really cool if Cult could randomly generate a culture that had new, strange opinions and cultures that aren't from a template (or at least, combine many small features from a template) and produce things along the lines of prayer at certain times, how the culture goes about warfare, their opinions about what is the perfect family, etc.
It could give the game a ton of flavor if you didnt know that (like in DF) a human is a human and their culture is roughly the same wherever you go and no matter how many times you regen.


I dunno. Having a group of Peaceful, cannibalistic, cave-god worshipping, tall humans that live on an island would be much cooler than encountering an uppercase U.

Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Cthulhu on September 04, 2010, 05:14:45 pm
That probably wouldn't be that hard.  Assign creatures, elements, etc. various keywords related to their traits (Mountains could have like earth, strength, and the like) And then when compiling a nation's culture, have them tend to pick various aspects with similar traits (But not always, there should be outliers) so the cultures are highly varied while still maintaining internal consistency.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on September 04, 2010, 08:04:17 pm
Yes, I agree. The real challenge is making the different cultures feel different to interact with every time.
A good example of how not to do the cultures is the space stage of spore if you've ever played it. In that game, there are thousands of other cultures in the galaxy, but only 3 real "attitudes" that they can have: (warlike, peaceful, economic) and it feels like those 3 attitudes are the different cultures instead of each planet feeling radically different in customs and stuff.
Having the generated culture affect more than the formulaic lines they say in greeting and the friendliness level of the group is where it would get hard, but also where the rewards would be. Also, it would be a good reason for various countries to war against each other (if their traditions or religions were radically different.)

If a real religion/culture/traditions/attitude generator featured in cult, I think it would become my favorite game for quite a long time, just because I wouldn't know what to expect.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on September 05, 2010, 02:26:52 am
I'd like to see stuff like a (very) long list of actions, many of which an adventurer can take, and the cult has a certain stance towards them. And more than just murdering/stealing/lying, for instance there is a small jungle tribe that honors strength and the personal merit of a warrior, so when you try to administer first aid, they see it as an insult to their personal toughness. Of course you wouldn't know that as an adventurer, untill you either talk about it or try it.

Maybe you could make 20 or so groups, like Cthulhu said, for instance Mountains, which implies the race likes Strength and Wealth, and then for each group a list of aspects (eg doesn't like first aid) with a chance they have that aspect, or a grade in which they have it. And every culture is a combination of one or several of these groups. And then eventually, after those aspects are chosen, they get a few more aspects that aren't directly related to their group, but don't interfere with already chosen aspects. This could, for instance, make a Flower culture (Peaceful and Nature) warlike where most Flower cultures are against war. But they would fight without damaging the nature around them.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on September 05, 2010, 09:37:25 pm
THIS. SO MUCH THIS. That's what I meant in the first place.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 07, 2010, 10:16:37 am
Awesome input and ideas, guys. I will definitely be incorporating some of this into civgen.

Of course, I think the key will be making the list of possible cultural nuances/beliefs EXTREMELY long. As in, the likelihood of finding two cultures in a game with more than two or three shared nuances should be almost nil. Otherwise cultures will just begin to fall into the same cookie-cutter mold that ought to be avoided.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on September 07, 2010, 11:40:26 am
True, or you could work with grades for every cultural belief, or even a floating value. And still make the list extremely long :p
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on September 07, 2010, 12:01:05 pm
True, or you could work with grades for every cultural belief, or even a floating value. And still make the list extremely long :p

This is probably a good idea. After all, certain factors *are* common across all civilizations to some extent. Pretty much all militaristic cultures are going to prize bravery, for example. Although they may have different ideas of what constitutes bravery.

Samurai, for example, felt it was braver to commit suicide than to be killed in combat by an enemy. Other cultures found suicide to be the coward's way out.

Maybe take broad concepts like Bravery and break it down into lots of sub-categories and have cultures made up of different flavors of these categories.

Same for stuff like music. Is it a deeply religious activity? An integral part of all walks of life? A past-time of the rich?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Hugehead on September 07, 2010, 03:33:39 pm
Posting to watch development, this looks really awesome.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Diablous on September 07, 2010, 03:39:28 pm
Posting to watch development, this looks really awesome.

Same here. This is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on September 10, 2010, 11:15:27 pm
How's the coding coming along? I am curious about this awesome project! ::)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on September 11, 2010, 04:03:14 am
How's the coding coming along? I am curious about this awesome project! ::)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 11, 2010, 09:08:36 am
Semi-steadily, but I've been hitting snags mostly caused by RL business. Progress is likely to remain somewhat stilted until January-February, when I have two months off of work. Aside from a Caribbean cruise at some point in January I don't have any plans other than to finish getting licensed as an insurance producer and do a ton of work on code.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: maxicaxi on September 14, 2010, 08:50:02 am
So alpha will be up in March?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 14, 2010, 02:53:02 pm
Well, I can't make any promises. I would certainly like to have a very early alpha offering some amount of playability out by that point, but there are no guarantees when it comes to coding (or any interference my personal life might present). For now this is just a hobby so I have to prioritize and make sure I'm able to get licensed as an insurance producer successfully, not to mention saving enough for law school.

But I DO have two months off, so assuming I don't have to devote all of my time to studying (which I hope I don't as it would be pretty damned boring), I should be able to get some work on the game done. If I could ever turn this into a 'working' hobby or possibly even eventually a secondary income based on donations it would be awesome. I just don't want to be a 'starving artist'-type.

Realistically, though, even if there's not a playable alpha out by that point, I would be surprised if the worldgen process wasn't completely functional (pending further additions) by February or March. At the very least, by then I'd prefer to have fully generated worlds offering enough richness of information for me to start coding the actual first-person parts of the game.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 14, 2010, 03:22:37 pm
As a footnote, lately I've been thinking about adding professions to the game. Although I haven't really fleshed anything out yet, it occurred to me that I'd like to avoid railroading the player into being a 100% combat-oriented character if possible. Ideally it would be nice if the player could actually function as a high priest, judge, mercenary captain, doctor, or whatever they'd like (within reason), really. I'm not exactly sure how in-depth the various professions should be, because they shouldn't be the primary focus of the game, and I don't want to get too absorbed in coding a medieval job sim. But it would be nice if there was enough flexibility for the PC to be a rich, fat bureaucrat COMMANDING an army rather than being strictly limited to playing a general out whacking people in the front lines - should they choose.

Of course, choosing not to participate in combat will probably considerably restrict some aspects of character growth. Then again, perhaps (?) it should open up others.

More on this later, I suppose, since I have much more important things to work on in the meantime, but this is being inserted here under the assumption that I may come back to it later, or that a future player might remind me about it at some point should I happen to forget.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on October 26, 2010, 09:16:01 pm
Still interested in this project! Don't stop working on it!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 25, 2010, 02:41:54 am
I plan on returning to this when I can. I am, however, stuck in New Jersey at the moment without my desktop OR any of my code. Presuming I'm able to make a trip back to Michigan at any time in the near future to transport my computer/other things here, progress should be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Knight of Fools on November 25, 2010, 11:05:28 pm
This sounds pretty interesting.  It also sounds like an idea I had, though it in a modern setting and you had to gather your cult and preparing for a global apocalypse.  Once it happened, if you were right, people were more likely to come and join your group as survivors, and it was on a much smaller scale.


On that note, I think it would be interesting to have cultures that evolved in response to their environment and beliefs.  So, a culture that has a belief that fire is bad and dangerous may have had a run-in with a fire god, causing them to want to worship more water-like things, and forbidding certain fire religions from their temples and meeting places (Or even the entire city or country, if enough people support the movement).  A positive experience leads towards a preference, a negative one to a fear or hate - Or it could even have the opposite effect, making people decide to prefer something out of fear or a desire to use that weapon (Or whatever) against someone else.

Things like forbidding First Aid in a culture might be hard to put in, though, because you either go without or have some basic limits - Generally, it's like gimping yourself and your people for a silly reason.  The reason that it would be complex is that it would only work if there were some way around it: You can't recieve first aid in combat, or it's alright to recieve magical healing.  Either way, it'd take up more time and effort to program and implement to all skills so that it'd make sense with everything.

If you can do it, that'd be great, but I wouldn't stop playing (or looking forward to) the game if that feature didn't make it.

One thing, though: Keep it simple.  Don't worry so much about the details that you'll burn yourself out.  That happens to me a lot when I start working on a project - You seem to be able to keep your mind focused on what you want, though.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on December 28, 2010, 03:14:44 pm
I managed to have my all of my code sent to me via file transfer from Michigan, and I'm now using a gaming laptop that's powerful enough to reasonably continue making progress. So, work on Cult is resuming (to a greater or lesser degree).

I decided to go back and have another try at creating an algorithm for finding bays along a continental shoreline, but it's incredibly frustrating. Creating an algorithm probably wouldn't be hard in and of itself, but creating one that will work within the constraints of current computer capabilities without completely bogging down a PC is touchy.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: mr. macduggan on December 28, 2010, 04:08:25 pm
All right! Nice to have you back!
Would the bay finding thing be so that you could name them? (example: The Gulf of Garol) I could see how that could be helpful. Also, you could make cities occur more often on bays than on standard coastline for reasons of having a good port.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2011, 05:44:28 pm
Bay names may be unrealistically difficult to implement.

I am currently in the process of beginning to tinker with procedurally generated creatures/gods/spirits/monsters.

Took a slight detour, however, to modify the map generation process to accept user-specified map sizes rather than a static 300x200 map grid. Of course, the 500x300 grids I've been playing with have taken a LOT longer to generate, but I suspect some people will consider it a worthwhile trade-off to be able to get supersized maps. Mini-maps should also be possible. In fact, theoretically, any map size should function properly, assuming its width and height are both divisible by ten.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 06, 2011, 06:26:04 pm
Sample 500 x 300 map:
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/largeworld.png)

On to more pertinent tasks, I suppose. Like creature/god generation.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: thobal on January 06, 2011, 10:18:28 pm
Super kick ass, I wish I knew maths & code as good as you.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Outcast Orange on January 06, 2011, 11:08:51 pm
Super kick ass, I wish I knew maths & code as good as you.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on January 07, 2011, 03:27:30 am
Super kick ass, I wish I knew maths & code as good as you.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: thobal on January 07, 2011, 03:41:18 am
Jeez, I guess my poor grammar will live forever now.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on January 07, 2011, 05:20:26 pm
Looks pretty. Glad to see the project moving along.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: x2yzh9 on January 08, 2011, 12:14:31 am
Super kick ass, I wish I knew maths & code as good as you.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 15, 2011, 04:05:39 am
An update to the way that nations establish borders during worldgen:

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/worldgenpc-4.png)

The intent was to end up with more natural-looking borders. Nations now expand more naturally according to the type of terrain they're settling.

Terrain generation has also been tweaked somewhat to create more varied maps.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on January 15, 2011, 04:37:00 am
This looks awesome. Not only because of all the reasons mentioned in this thread already, but also because it almost feels like a real world map. Can't explain why though, I suck at explaining these kind of things.

Also, 'almost' a worldmap because it's very clearly based on a rectangle. But that's probably the 'fault' of standard computer systems, I guess it'd be hard to change that without needing more memory. Maybe if it worked with several square or rectangular map pieces that fit together in a shape that could be but is not necessarly a rectangle? Anyway, don't let this rewrite your engine. It's but a slightly annoying reef in this sea of awesomeness. Or something.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: moghopper on January 15, 2011, 10:28:41 am
Ugh... Now I want to play this game (Really badly)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 15, 2011, 02:57:26 pm
Here's another run with the new nation expansion algorithm. One of the unfortunate side-effects of this (slightly more complicated) algorithm is that it increases the amount of time necessary to create nations by a not-insignificant amount. I'm running this code on a fairly heftily-powered gaming laptop (dual core 2.26ghz, 4 gigs RAM, 1 gig graphics card) and it still takes ~3-5 minutes or so to run 150 years of expansion for land-heavy maps with a high random number of nation-states. Of course, my desktop at home that runs four cores at 4ghz a core would probably halve this time (or better), but I realize a lot of people will be working with older rigs, so I don't want to go too crazy here.

I am mildly tempted to go all hardcore and multi-thread the expansion process, since the way I've recoded it would be much more conducive to doing so without running into a bunch of weird conflicts. We'll see how that works out, it's not a priority at the moment.

150 years of initial expansion is more than adequate to create original nation borders. I figure they'll probably start warring in a second phase which I've yet to code. It's slightly less realistic, but it'll prevent the code from bogging down peoples' computers to a standstill. Most of these hard numbers (i.e., the 150 year setting) will probably be user-configurable along with many other worldgen settings, although it remains to be seen exactly how in-depth with this stuff I'll be in the end.

(Note to self: I really need to take a good long look at the language gen code and consider scrapping/rewriting it at some point in the near future. If there's anybody out there with a lot of experience at creating language/dictionary generation code, I'd love to chat/bounce ideas off one another.)

Just another quick map-gen:

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/borders.png)

Though it's pretty hard to tell at this scale, villages/cities/castles are now back into the nation gen process. I've reduced their frequency quite a bit (I didn't like the look of a map that was too tightly clustered with settlements, and I feel that the prospective adventurer should have to walk more than two tiles or so to reach civilization). It's also worth noting that there are some significantly-sized areas of unsettled wild. These types of places will probably eventually make great areas to start new civilizations/settlements should the player choose to go that route.

Also on the to-do list for now: make an actual dev blog. Though I will try to keep updating threads here and on the Doryen forums, I think it'd probably be wise to finally get an independent page set up at this point for the ease of both those keeping up with the project (and also for myself from a maintenance standpoint).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Dwarf on January 16, 2011, 03:31:25 pm
Very nice. Keep it up :3

What language are you writing this in, by the way? C++?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Korbac on January 16, 2011, 03:59:44 pm
ahhhhhh....too cool...TOO COOL
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 16, 2011, 06:13:40 pm
This is all coded in Python; however, I think some of the more processor-heavy parts of the code will be re-written as C/C++ extensions in order to improve efficiency. As much as I love Python, I think I'm going to have to get a bit 'closer to the metal', as it were, to avoid creating unbearable lag for those with slower rigs.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Artzbacher on January 17, 2011, 10:20:42 am
I'd love to see a dev. blog - I forgot which forum this thread was in, couldn't find it, and so thought development was dead. This game sounds truly awesome.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: quip on January 17, 2011, 02:06:27 pm
I need to get out of the roleplaying lower forums once in a while, it's only by luck I found this thread!
It looks amazing can't wait for some gameplay... Well done!
(Lurking)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: inteuniso on January 18, 2011, 08:34:41 am
I WANT TO MAKE AN LP OF THIS. RIGHT. NOW.

In non capslock news...

Really looking good. How do you plan on making the conversion process work?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 18, 2011, 10:57:31 am
Well, Cult now has a development blog (http://cultrl.wordpress.com), although the address is probably just a temporary one until such a time as I set up a site/forum for the game. The last host I used (godaddy) for a website offered a very simple Wordpress setup/installation to the server, so I could probably just convert everything once needed if I go with them again (which I probably will).

Not too much there for now, but expect to see more as updates are made.

ETA:

Any suggestions or ideas concerning the blog/as-of-yet-unmade website are more than welcome. I am relatively inexperienced at blogging (and site design, for that matter), so if you think you have constructive input, don't be afraid to send it my way.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Artzbacher on January 18, 2011, 07:19:56 pm
Looks nice. A more lengthy introduction regarding future plans/goals would be nice though... I guess you could just copy/paste something from this thread.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nenjin on January 19, 2011, 12:41:30 pm
Just popping into say: Do want.

Love the set up, love the arc of the game. Too many games shy away from religion and gods as a part of gameplay.

Very impressed with the tech demo too.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Dwarf on January 19, 2011, 03:39:17 pm
What are you using for graphical output?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Bricks on January 19, 2011, 04:16:19 pm
It's the libTCOD library, available for many programming languages.  It also has a number of algorithms useful for roguelikes built-in, like pathfinding and field of view.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 19, 2011, 05:07:31 pm
It's the libTCOD library, available for many programming languages.  It also has a number of algorithms useful for roguelikes built-in, like pathfinding and field of view.

Indeed, although I won't be using either of those algorithms (which shouldn't be a deterrent to anyone else, but I'll save myself trouble by using my own code for something as intrinsic to gameplay as FOV or pathfinding in a game as complex as Cult aspires to be).
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 21, 2011, 10:09:32 am
I have hit a temporary snag with compiling a C++ extension module that will take the place of the CPython nation-expansion code in order to speed things up. Unfortunately it's extremely difficult to debug compiled extensions once they're imported into CPython because they tend to crash the entire engine without producing any debug code, so it's more trial-and-error than anything. Making slow progress, however, and once I'm done with that I hope to get back to newer parts of worldgen.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Dwarf on January 21, 2011, 10:26:53 am
Since this is Python and C++, I'm sure there'll be a Mac version at some point  :P
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 24, 2011, 10:57:12 am
UDPATE:

I'm pretty ecstatic at the moment. I just tried a slightly modified approach to the nation expansion algorithm and it worked BEAUTIFULLY, speeding up the process to a matter of seconds (rather than minutes).

For code nerds:

In order to expand to a new world tile, the algorithm would look at all the tiles adjacent to an occupied square. It would then make sure they weren't already occupied (or in the process of being occupied, since some feature types such as desert take longer to settle), see if they were in a valid height range, see if the tile contained any terrain features that would slow the expansion progress, and only THEN add them to the queue.

However, it occurred to me that for every square, I was doing several separate dictionary searches to obtain information about said square. And for each one that did NOT match the required criteria for one reason or another, I was executing an unsuccessful dictionary search, which takes up a lot of time (comparatively speaking). So I switched the entire process over to a series of 'try: ... except:' statements, and the whole process instantly sped up by an order of magnitude.

Expansion now literally takes perhaps 1-2 seconds.

Now, if I can carry this sort of efficiency over to the feature-finding algorithms that tend to bottleneck the worldgen process, people will be generating worlds to their hearts' content. Even people stuck on ancient rigs.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 24, 2011, 01:24:51 pm
Nice.

I love it when a simple optimization path becomes apparent. Always a nice feeling.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 24, 2011, 02:19:39 pm
Nice.

I love it when a simple optimization path becomes apparent. Always a nice feeling.

Most definitely! Although it also tends to go hand in hand with that feeling of 'huh, now why didn't I think of doing that already?'.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on January 24, 2011, 02:23:44 pm
... that feeling of 'huh, now why didn't I think of doing that already?'.
I think that's the single most encountered feeling in any programming project. Along with "Where's that damned bug."
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 24, 2011, 02:39:54 pm
The lake and island-finding algorithms have also been updated with a fairly decent speed increase (though not quite as impressive as the nation expansion algorithm's).

I have to try and finish at least a chapter of studying about optional provisions in health insurance contracts or I risk facing the wrath of my significant other. However, I'm going to try to sneak in some more work on gods/creatures before I have to run off to work.

ETA:
I'm running into something of a stumbling block with creature gen. Namely, I'm unsure about how they should be generated. By animal sub-kingdom? This seems like it should work, except that I don't particularly want to constrain creatures to earth categories (there should be weird creatures that would be unclassifiable by our scientific standards, presumably). Essentially, I need somewhere to start. I thought about beginning simply by determining whether or not they are a vertebrate, but it occurred to me that this should not determine as much as it would for an earth creature (an invertebrate in a Cult-generated world should not necessarily be cold blooded, and so forth).

Once I figure out how I want to generate them, the rest should fall into place fairly easily: assign them traits, stat-ranges, and size-ranges based on their morphology, assign them to a type of biome and area of the world (or all of it if they are very adaptable), generate an interesting and at least semi-unique description based on all of this, and assign their species an ASCII character and color. All of this should be accessible from the World Atlas.

Creatures with a high enough intelligence level and suitable set of traits should qualify for sentience and the opportunity to form civilizations. I'll want to make certain that a minimum number of these species are mandated in worldgen (probably only two or three, though more should be possible). Humans will exist in every world, though I may include the option to disable this setting for the user's sake.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on January 24, 2011, 03:28:02 pm
You could have area-specific genes, much like the racial traits that were proposed earlier. I guess that would be hell to implement - if only for the mutually exclusive traits - but then again, I don't know that much about programming.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Korbac on January 24, 2011, 05:28:19 pm
You're going for different species as well as different nations / religions?

Honestly, Sir Dullard, I think this is going to be my favourite game when it's done. Even more favourite than the Ł40 Black Ops, or the Acclaimed Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mithras on January 27, 2011, 07:59:46 am
If you're still having trouble with categories then I would suggest either deviding them by chemical make up (carbon based lifeform etc) or primary method of obtaining energy (photosynthesis, consumption of other entities, other chemical processes) as I can see both of these categories having a large affect on behaviour.

I'd like to find out how you will categorize your animals. What I imagine is probably a little unwieldy to actually code.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Keita on January 27, 2011, 08:05:28 am
Posting to watch possible master piece.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2011, 03:02:29 pm
If you're still having trouble with categories then I would suggest either deviding them by chemical make up (carbon based lifeform etc) or primary method of obtaining energy (photosynthesis, consumption of other entities, other chemical processes) as I can see both of these categories having a large affect on behaviour.

I'd like to find out how you will categorize your animals. What I imagine is probably a little unwieldy to actually code.

This is, essentially, what I settled on. After a long talk with my girlfriend the Bio major, I decided the only sensible way to start out categorizing creatures would be to separate them by diet. What I've got for basic groups are Carnivore, Herbivore, Omnivore, and Other. Other will contain the weird odds and ends (creatures that gather their energy from crystals deep in the earth, creatures fueled by magical power of one type or another, creatures that are direct energy producers, and so on).

After separating them by diet, they're further separated by sphere: Terrestrial, Aquatic, Aerial, Amphibian, and Subterranean. Each of these categories will have a slightly different procedural generation. The chance of a creature being one type or another is all simple weighted random choice, so a world might end up with barely any terrestrial predators, or an overabundance of them. Spheres will also experience some degree of crossover (terrestrial creatures should still be able to develop wings, a la dragons). After these basic categorizations, further specializations, traits, and terrain specializations will take place/be added, along with the actual physical morphology. Morphology should, to the point of being able to suspend disbelief, make sense for the creature's biome and habits. Creatures should still be able to inspire a 'what the hell is that?' reaction from players, however.

I've retweaked the terrain generation once again, although I've also made some decent progress into beginning the Creature Gen section. I wanted continents to look less like they were created specifically to fit in a box-shaped region. It isn't perfect, but it's looking somewhat better than before. Also, I wasn't liking the 'stretching' effect around the edges of oceans that was being caused by ensuring that map edges are water tiles, so I adjusted things to (hopefully) make them look more like natural continental shelves.

Worldgen has been significantly sped up by algorithm changes. Anybody with a 2ghz+ processor should do just fine with the generation process, and the heavy lifting sections are pretty much done. Older cores will probably still be fine, but there may be long-ish waits involved.

I'll post some teaser images if I have time before I run off to work.

Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 27, 2011, 03:15:17 pm
Damn, that sounds cool. Really looking forward to seeing what creatures the game comes up with!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2011, 03:22:27 pm
As promised (warning, these files are LARGE):
A world:
http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgs1.png (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgs1.png)

Language code still needs updating; it tends to produce rather unintelligible sounding combinations.

Post civ-spread:
http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgspc1.png (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgspc1.png)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: EagleV on January 27, 2011, 03:48:13 pm
That looks awesome. Am I allowed to nitpick? (Pick nits?)

There are two islands on the map which aren't islands, or the water that seperates them fom the water is not wide enough to show up on the world map. Neiwose Isle (top right) and Einigez Island (middle right, near the desert).

Also, I believe this is the single thread where I used the word 'awesome' the most.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Willfor on January 27, 2011, 04:23:34 pm
Post civ-spread:
http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgspc1.png (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wgspc1.png)
By the year 406, the Fjoygoysoy Empire had managed to spread far and wide. Historians trace their success to dropping all vowels from their language except for the diphthong 'oy'.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2011, 11:13:46 pm
That looks awesome. Am I allowed to nitpick? (Pick nits?)

There are two islands on the map which aren't islands, or the water that seperates them fom the water is not wide enough to show up on the world map. Neiwose Isle (top right) and Einigez Island (middle right, near the desert).

Also, I believe this is the single thread where I used the word 'awesome' the most.

Thanks, Eagle. I hadn't noticed that. The top-right island is actually not connected to the continent by land - it's only connected by an ice bridge. This happens occasionally (it's semi-intended; I didn't really expect it originally, but once I noticed it was happening, I decided I liked it enough to leave it in and allow player characters to traverse frozen spans of ice).

The other one is a genuine glitch. I just did a significant amount of retooling on the lake and island-finding algorithms when I adjusted them for increased speed, so I suspect I may have missed something in the process. I'd gotten them to the point of being more or less glitch-free prior to my latest bout of messing around, but apparently that isn't the case anymore.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 28, 2011, 01:12:39 pm
I've noticed that your worlds all seem to look about the same. Are you going to do anything to get more varied continent shapes? Two distinct land masses, anything like that?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 28, 2011, 02:05:04 pm
I've noticed that your worlds all seem to look about the same. Are you going to do anything to get more varied continent shapes? Two distinct land masses, anything like that?

Yes, I've been making this a goal lately, although to be honest I don't want to spend too much more time on the physical part of worldgen. If I can't figure out something easy to implement that creates varied continents, I may consider dividing the map up into different-sized random sectors and generating mini-maps that will be compacted into one rather than simply generating one large continent.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Farseer on January 28, 2011, 02:28:56 pm
I'd much rather you skipped along and started working on the cult design. Sounds awesome, man. You can come back to world gen later.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on January 28, 2011, 02:39:32 pm
Yeah, not a huge deal. Just something I noticed.

What you have is certainly enough to work with for the main game. Getting more varied maps can come later.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on January 29, 2011, 12:02:25 am
Maybe one day you can simulate plate tectonics a bit, but don't spend too much time on making the world's best world generator :P.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Servant Corps on January 29, 2011, 12:23:56 pm
I'd much rather you skipped along and started working on the cult design. Sounds awesome, man. You can come back to world gen later.

Go ahead and follow Farseer's advice. Worldgen isn't everything.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Nadaka on January 29, 2011, 04:08:03 pm
Question if you don't mind answering? What do you do to generate the biomes and rivers?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 30, 2011, 12:59:08 am
Rivers are generated following what is basically a very complicated path-finding algorithm based on heightmap differences rather than blocked/walkable tiles.

Forests/deserts/etc. are formed by creating entirely separate random noise maps and then superimposing them over the terrain map.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 01, 2011, 11:45:15 am
Making slow but steady progress. Swearing at a lot of inanimate objects.

Terrain gen should (hopefully) look more interesting soon. Screenshots to be posted in short order.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 01, 2011, 01:04:55 pm
Ask and ye shall receive!

These are fairly representative of the sorts of maps I'm getting now, although there's still some work to be done. But here are your multiple continents:

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/difgen2.png)

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/difgen.png)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on February 01, 2011, 01:21:10 pm
Very cool!

Sill a little landmass-heavy, I think, which makes for a map that looks tailored to the rectangle. But A good improvement, and probably sufficient for now.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 01, 2011, 01:45:54 pm
Very cool!

Sill a little landmass-heavy, I think, which makes for a map that looks tailored to the rectangle. But A good improvement, and probably sufficient for now.

Problem is, making maps water-heavy means losing a lot of terrain variation simply because the gradient between low-lying terrain and mountains must necessarily be compacted if the landmasses are all smaller.

The alternative is making landmasses on map edges wrap like a Mercator projection.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mephansteras on February 01, 2011, 01:53:28 pm
You could always go the Civ approach and have a world gen parameter be the % of land on the map.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Mithras on February 02, 2011, 06:51:31 am
If you're going to make aquatic species a significant part of this game then it might be worth adding more features to the ocoens, such as coral reefs and deep see trenches.

It might then be possible to design world gen capable of making a choice between a land focused map and a water focused one.

Of course, I'm not sure how far you plan to run with the aquatic species/cultures thing, so none of this might be relevant.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: TacKY on February 02, 2011, 11:24:52 pm
What do I do once I generate the world and the history?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Hugehead on February 02, 2011, 11:33:59 pm
Nothing.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 03, 2011, 12:11:05 am
Just another reason to despise my computer's resolution.  Why, 1024x600, why?

Any chance for those of us with baby sized laptops to get a resolution changing option?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 03, 2011, 11:36:20 am
What do I do once I generate the world and the history?

This is just a tech demo - the actual 'game' is not likely to be released for some time.

@ squeakyReaper - yes, I'll probably make the game's resolution changeable once I make a more stable/current release with the beginnings of the actual game engine. I'm not too concerned about it while I'm still in such early stages of development.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nenjin on February 03, 2011, 06:09:34 pm
To get you thinking on other game play aspects and away from map development....

Are you planning a set pantheon of deities, ala Dominions 3? While I love the idea of being a prophet rather than a god, the ability to handcraft our own deities would make players attach to the game much more, I think. Along those lines, what kinds of attributes or behaviors will distinguish one god's followers from another? Will it be the sort of system that lends itself to customization, ie....

ETHOS: (Peace, Love, Hate, Fear, Altruism, War, Death, Nature, ect...)
SPHERE: (Fire, Water, Mind, Battle, Holy, Unholy...)
ASPECT: (Man, Animal, Object, Idea)

Or will gods have a more hard-coded framework?

As for help, I can do tile work (been doing a lot of 32x32 .png work for another game), and I've written some primitive music in a midi orchestrator. So I'd be up for helping with either of those when you have a content framework set up. If those aren't formats you're working with, depending on what you ARE using, I'm a pretty fast learner as well.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 03, 2011, 06:13:43 pm
It could also be less "you start with these powers", and more...  if you do something, you become more associated with that type of action.  Because people who like those actions worship you more, those actions become more powerful.  First you start by poisoning your enemy's water supply, which attracts those who wish death upon their enemies (or fear your wrath!) and lets you eventually do a full on plague!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nenjin on February 03, 2011, 06:16:53 pm
I'm not really thinking into innate powers or anything, just from a flavor/design perspective. The way I read the idea, you're not creating a god, you're representing one. He says he wants gods randomly generated, which would be fun in its own right. A way to customize or add gods to the pool though, (depending on how they are constructed to begin with) would be a nice perk.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2011, 12:36:59 pm
Too late, you've all awakened my obsessive compulsive disorder WRATH!

Here. I played with it. Users will now be able to specify the % of land they want (these maps are all set to 35%), and probably also the amount of mountainous vs. low-level terrain, if I decide to be slightly more ambitious. Comments, gripes, criticism?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, I have about an hour and a half before I am dragged off to a shopping/banking excursion and a social function. Time to figure out how the hell I'm going to code work on creature gen!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: quip on February 04, 2011, 02:52:29 pm
Looks good to me!
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Fniff on February 04, 2011, 03:40:55 pm
I would like to see different powers for different gods, I.E worship a sun god, you have light and fire powers, worship a lunar/nature god, you can turn into a werewolf, etc.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on February 04, 2011, 05:01:15 pm
These maps look much better than the old ones. I like how the mass isn't uniformly distributed all over the place, and so you end up with ocean between land masses. Who knows, the natural boundaries may foster completely different dominant cults until they finally clash.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Blargityblarg on February 04, 2011, 05:03:29 pm
Further nitpick: Is there any way to reduce the frequency or size of the inland seas?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2011, 05:42:59 pm
Further nitpick: Is there any way to reduce the frequency or size of the inland seas?

I could throw something together relatively quickly, I suppose.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 04, 2011, 05:46:33 pm
Quick question; my knowledge on biomes is horribly small, but...  are there some deserts next to tundras and snowy-fields?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2011, 05:50:52 pm
Sure. Temperature =/= humidity. There's nothing preventing non-equatorial areas from being deserts, or even areas that are close to being polar themselves.

http://geology.com/records/sahara-desert-map.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia#Climate

Polar deserts (oddly) do exist. I didn't really see any reason to remove them from mapgen since they're an actual phenomenon.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 04, 2011, 05:57:51 pm
Quick question; my knowledge on biomes is horribly small, but...  are there some deserts next to tundras and snowy-fields?
   The largest desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert#Geography) in the world is actually in Antarctica.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 04, 2011, 06:00:01 pm
Haha, I was more referring to the uneducated version of desert.  Hot, sandy and wide.  Though I think deserts are incredibly cold at night...  eh.  You're the boss.  Dwarf Fortress often generates deserts where it snows (I thought the lack of rain made it a desert..?) so I guess it's just me.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2011, 06:05:43 pm
Haha, I was more referring to the uneducated version of desert.  Hot, sandy and wide.  Though I think deserts are incredibly cold at night...  eh.  You're the boss.  Dwarf Fortress often generates deserts where it snows (I thought the lack of rain made it a desert..?) so I guess it's just me.

Yeah, it's weird, but it happens.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_g476rU5vrAk/SO0nMym94ZI/AAAAAAAACu8/Gvc8qY-NErA/s1600-h/Snow+in+Desert+(2).jfif
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 04, 2011, 06:20:35 pm
That is pretty awesome.  Pretty weird, but pretty awesome.

Will gods be able to terraform the land?  Possibly during the worldgen, possibly during the game.  My God likes fish, but is faced with a dilemma; the area he wants to send his believers to colonize is far from water.  Could he split the land, creating a river and a lake for his people to fish from?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: freeformschooler on February 04, 2011, 06:36:24 pm
This is pretty cool, but is there any way to reduce the resolution of the game?
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 04, 2011, 06:54:39 pm
Haha, I was more referring to the uneducated version of desert.  Hot, sandy and wide.  Though I think deserts are incredibly cold at night...  eh.  You're the boss.  Dwarf Fortress often generates deserts where it snows (I thought the lack of rain made it a desert..?) so I guess it's just me.
   It is the lack of rain(precipitation) that makes a place
a desert. Even though places like Antarctica are covered
in snow they actually get very little snowfall. It just never
gets warm enough to get rid of what little that does fall.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: chaoticag on February 04, 2011, 11:35:01 pm
A good example of a cold desert is The Gobi desert. Lack of rain means lack of water, lack of water means lack of life. No plants are able to hold the topsoil, and so you get sand.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 05, 2011, 12:04:55 am
This is pretty cool, but is there any way to reduce the resolution of the game?

The resolution is locked right now at 1024x768 (the maps you see are exported as PNG files; you do not view the entire map in-game, just a portion of it). I'll probably make this adjustable, but it will require some tedious retooling that I can most likely finish in under a day.

(ETA: most likely finish in under a day - never believe any coder who says this)
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 05, 2011, 03:00:05 pm
Starting to get into the swing of things with creature gen, finally, and the approach I'll have to take on this is starting to make sense. Of course, it's also becoming clear that this is going to get REALLY complicated, but... what the heck, that'll make it more fun.

Things I'm currently thinking about, both short- and long-term, and attempting to implement:

* Creatures should fall most prevalently into Earth-similar norms (i.e. no multiple heads, fairly sensible body arrangements, and so on). The reaction upon seeing new creatures should generally be 'woah, neat, what's that?'. A rarer amount of creatures should fall mostly or completely outside of earth norms (multiple heads, many-legged/armed vertebrate, pincers on a mammalian-ish creature, subterranean creatures with beaks, tentacles, and fur, yadda yadda) and should induce at 'WTF!?' reaction. Of course, creatures should also possess some rare traits that are more magical than morphological.

* Creatures need not be particularly interesting to be useful. Something like a sponge, which is seemingly useless and defenseless, might possess morphological traits which make it drop a useful item upon death (dye, processable skin or organs, medicinal substances). Similarly, larger creatures should drop appropriately relevant items depending on their traits. These sorts of items should eventually make it into cultural references and item creation/economies.

* I should probably also think about unique plant/tree generation, though this will be a headache because it will require the recoding of certain parts of world gen.

I will probably release a new tech demo soon just so people can play around with the up-to-date worldgen as it stands. Even though it's rather useless at present, the maps do make rather nice desktop backgrounds.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 05, 2011, 03:04:10 pm
While each world will be very wondrous and unique, make sure to keep it well grounded.  I should be able to look at a creature and say "So that's the equivalent of this world's cow", not "OH BUGGER WHAT ARE ALL THESE THINGS".  Don't want to be overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Cult - v0.15 Tech Demo Released
Post by: nenjin on February 05, 2011, 03:53:35 pm
Quote
* Creatures need not be particularly interesting to be useful. Something like a sponge, which is seemingly useless and defenseless, might possess morphological traits which make it drop a useful item upon death (dye, processable skin or organs, medicinal substances). Similarly, larger creatures should drop appropriately relevant items depending on their traits. These sorts of items should eventually make it into cultural references and item creation/economies.

Sometimes the things that make them interesting don't even need to be game mechanics. They just need to have flavor and be distinct. I would take a page from the Book of the The Toady One, and try to arrange some detail elements that are random and purely cosmetic. Skin vs. fur types, palette selection for said skins and furs, size descriptions, ect...

One problem I have with random or procedurally generated animals is you get a lot of indistinguishable animal masses. Without the details to under pin it, you end up memorizing a name string attached to an animal rather than relying on the picture it creates in your head.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/06/11)
Post by: Servant Corps on February 05, 2011, 07:07:51 pm
nenjin: That is just the very Madlibs style version of Dwarf Fortress that makes some people critique it. Overloading with fluff is only useful when people think the fluff and flavor actually mean something useful. If it means nothing, if the players know that the game just picks random cosmetic details (like how Gods work currently), then players will see through that illusion and it cheapens the game.

I suggest you make every detail important for gameplay.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/06/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 05, 2011, 07:12:33 pm
Unless this is going to be an ASCII game (not likely, as there are graphics in place already), fluff will make a difference visually.  Tan Dwarves, Pale Dwarves, ones with beards, ones without- they all look the same right now.  Perhaps the visual difference in this game will make it worth remembering?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/06/11)
Post by: Little on February 05, 2011, 07:37:16 pm
Good to see development continuing! :D
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/06/11)
Post by: Hugehead on February 05, 2011, 10:34:06 pm
Doesn't DF plan to have procedural sentient races and animals? Anyways, it's looking nice, keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/06/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 05, 2011, 10:57:15 pm
Unless this is going to be an ASCII game (not likely, as there are graphics in place already), fluff will make a difference visually.  Tan Dwarves, Pale Dwarves, ones with beards, ones without- they all look the same right now.  Perhaps the visual difference in this game will make it worth remembering?

This already is an ASCII game; it uses libTCOD. I am not artsy (or insane) enough to try and create procedurally generated 2D sprites. If somebody else is ambitious enough to think they can, I'd be happy to bring them on board for the project, but somehow I'm fairly skeptical that anyone would want to embark on such a masochistic venture.

I may or may not design sprites for the game. At present I am leaning towards 'not', simply because procedurally generated creatures/spirits/gods will not necessarily have a description that coincides with any sprites in a set, no matter how many I make.

As for detail fluff vs. mechanically-important details, I am inclined to agree with Servant Corps. There will be some 'meaningless' detail simply to help the player visualize things, but I feel that each world will feel more unique and enjoyable if details are taken into account mechanically and actually make a difference in gameplay. Reading the description of a creature and finding it interesting is a plus. Reading a description of a creature/plant and finding it interesting, THEN discovering a use for that creature/plant based on your observations or local lore takes the level of gameplay a step deeper. And those players who are only interested in the cosmetic fluff need not bother.

Doesn't DF plan to have procedural sentient races and animals? Anyways, it's looking nice, keep up the good work.

In all honesty, I have no clue. Thanks.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 07, 2011, 02:47:10 pm
Work on creature gen is still progressing. It's getting complicated, but much more fun now that I'm no longer stuck on trying to organize the algorithm's framework.

The fact that my girlfriend is a bio major has been ridiculously helpful. She's been lending me a lot of input when it's applicable.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2011, 05:52:54 pm
Depending on how you arrange the creature generation, you could assign sprites based on some very simple classes. BI-PED, QUAD-PED, SNAKE, SNAKE-WING, WING-BI-PED, ect...

It could re-color the sprite based on some simple input from the creature file about it's general color. We've kind of played with this recoloring concept in the TOME engine game we're screwing with elsewhere, I don't know if it's applicable to what you're doing. If you really desire some non-euclidean stuff though, classes become pretty much useless
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 08, 2011, 12:06:06 am
Depending on how you arrange the creature generation, you could assign sprites based on some very simple classes. BI-PED, QUAD-PED, SNAKE, SNAKE-WING, WING-BI-PED, ect...

Problem is, this would be infinitely more confusing to the player than simply using ASCII characters. Remembering what a purple 'd' and a green 'D' and a yellow 'R' and a blue 'z' mean would be fairly easy. Remembering the difference between those four if they all use the same sprite becomes difficult - especially if a sprite is used enough times that the colors of multiple creatures become similar. Throw fifteen of the same sprite at somebody in the heat of combat and expect them to know what they all represent and the various capabilities of each? I doubt that would work out well.

I'm open to suggestion, I suppose, although I am currently working within the constraints of a 10x10 tileset (although this could fairly easily be changed).

It MAY be possible to mimic something approaching 'procedural' sprites by creating a 1x1 libTCOD console and pasting several layers of body parts over one another to create a simple representation of the creature, but I haven't tested it so I'm not entirely sure if it would work (and honestly, I'm not THAT interested in finding out, since I'm not exceptionally gifted at designing sprites myself).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 08, 2011, 10:48:44 am
Quick update: The screen size is now adjustable. All display functions scale appropriately with user-specified screen size.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 08, 2011, 01:03:42 pm
Quick update: The screen size is now adjustable. All display functions scale appropriately with user-specified screen size.

Huzzah!  Tired of being harassed about it so much?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 09, 2011, 11:56:01 am
Quick update: The screen size is now adjustable. All display functions scale appropriately with user-specified screen size.

Huzzah!  Tired of being harassed about it so much?

I figured it was going to be one of those requests that would crop up more and more as time went on, so I'd probably better nip it in the bud. :)

Thinking out loud:

Creatures are going to be generated procedurally as follows:

1. Determine the creature's predation type. Is it carnivorous, omnivorous, herbivorous, etc.?
2. Determine the creature's biome/sphere. Is it a primarily aquatic, terrestrial, subterranean, aerial, or amphibian creature?
3. Taking into account the two above steps, determine the creature's body structure, with limitations and exceptions in place according to what the creature eats and what environment it lives in.
4. For each limb/body part, determine the specific morphological features of that limb and its functions and/or specializations. Also, attach an intensity gradient to these functions. So, for example, one creature might use 'long, muscular' limbs with a primary function of 'climbing'; another might use 'long, muscular' limbs with a primary function of 'striking its prey' or 'running for long distances'. Each of these have might other dependencies (striking prey might require claws/talons/etc.) and will grant different statistical advantages and disadvantages. Such advantages and disadvantages will fall along an intensity gradient that will determine how great of an effect they have on the creature's overall statistics.

Gradient:
5: (Most) ['extremely', 'incredibly', 'amazingly', 'fantastically', 'unbelievably', 'inexplicably', 'phenomenally']
4: ['radically', 'excessively', 'abnormally', 'exceptionally', 'extraordinarily']
3: ['remarkably', 'conspicuously', 'prominently', 'surpassingly', 'strikingly']
2: ['curiously', 'peculiarly', 'markedly', 'particularly', 'very', 'significantly']
1: (Least) ['quite', 'somewhat', 'notably', 'fairly', 'rather', 'relatively', 'moderately']

So, from the example above, one creature might end up with 'long, phenomenally muscular' legs that it uses for climbing; the other might have 'long, curiously muscular' legs that it uses for running long distances. 'Long, muscular legs' might grant ++AGI, +STR, and -END (this is just an example I'm pulling out of my metaphorical arse, please don't start a debate with me about statistical advantages of morphological characteristics until I have time to plot them all out). The first creature, which generated a descriptive intensity modifier of '5', would get +10% AGI, +5% STR, and -5% END. Thus, morphological CHARACTERISTICS - i.e., the morphological shape and development of a limb - parallel its statistical benefits and detriments. The morphological/evolutionary FUNCTION of the limb - i.e., it is used for climbing - corresponds to a skill, which will also receive a relevant bonus. I will probably not implement negative skill modifiers, except that skills will be modified by attribute levels, so a creature's skills in one area might be negatively modified by morphological characteristics it develops in its various body parts.

Morphological characteristics are sorted by Predation and Biome/Sphere. Some characteristics will be general and evolvable by a creature of any predation or any sphere (i.e., something like a 'long, lithe tail', since just about any kind of creature, vertebrate (monkey) or invertebrate (scorpion) from any sphere can develop a tail). Some will have specific requirements.

Functions, furthermore, will be sorted by Predation, Sphere, AND Morph. Characteristics. Long, spindly legs should be able to be used for 'maintaining balance' or 'climbing' or 'running', but probably not for 'digging' or 'overpowering prey'.

Statistics for any creature of any size can be anything; however, size modifiers will determine the relative physical capabilities of a creature, which should theoretically restrict a really strong chipmunk-esque fuzzy thing from beating the living tar out of an unsuspecting adventurers which outsize them by a hundred-fold or so.

With all of the above taken into account, I'm going to try to make descriptive creature entries seem unique, interesting, AND morphologically relevant. Looking at a creature should give you a general idea about its capabilities, the sort of things it does to survive, whether it's threatening, and so forth. Taking a more in-depth look at it in the World Atlas will help you out more. I may or may not* require adventurers to encounter creatures before accessing World Atlas entries about them in order to fuel a sense of exploration and discovery in the game (if I decide to do this with creatures, it will probably also extend to stuff like myth, history, cultural facts, blah blah).

* - I can't decide whether it would be better to just give open access to all information immediately after worldgen or not. Perhaps basic facts will be immediately accessible, with more in-depth information (stats, skills, abilities, etc.) available after a certain number of encounters.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 09, 2011, 12:29:56 pm
It could depend on the availability of that information.  If it's common knowledge that a certain creature exists, let the character know about it - But once someone goes outside of their home town and starts encountering new creatures, then things start standing out.  Players should also be able to listen to locals talk about certain creatures - Locals can be wrong, of course, underestimating or overestimating the prowess of different creatures.  Most won't find anything to say about common animals (Why would you tell someone about the average, uninteresting dogs?), though they may give warnings about dangerous ones ("Beware the blood-sucking toothless mammoth!  It comes out only at night!").

You'd be opening a whole new can of worms here, though - Priorities in conversation and gossip don't have to be done immediately, if at all.

You could even make an option to tweak this for each player's preferences - People who just want to look at weird animals may not want to have to explore the entire world in order to do so.

I'd suggest making marked differences between locations in order to promote this feeling of the familiar (What you grew up with) and discovering new creatures, sectioning off continents and the biomes inside of the continents and putting a number of different, unique creatures in each - While having a fair spread of "common" creatures, like our world's deer, rabbits, and horses.  Even common creatures can be different from other places, though, so venturing from your homeland to a colder place may lead to the discovery of the Wool-Shrouded Deer, which grows excessive amounts of fur to survive the colder climes.  Going to the desert, though, you may not find any species of deer at all, instead finding a completely different range of animals and creatures you've never heard of before, except maybe from travelers, and even then their information was very scant and incomplete.

I'm very interested to see how this works out.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on February 09, 2011, 01:07:00 pm
posting to follow development
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 09, 2011, 02:26:02 pm
Great post, KoF. Thanks very much for the input.

Just a quick note:
Since this thread is approaching 10,000 views, I've decided to pledge a portion of any donations/compensation Cult generates (when and if it gets that far, but I certainly think and hope it will) to Toady/Bay 12 as a means of showing gratitude for the excellent games that B12 provides to this community for free, not to mention the forum and the awesome resource of the community itself. Thanks, B12!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2011, 06:38:27 pm
Well played.

I'm enjoying thinking through your model at the moment.

I'd suggest a couple hidden classes/body parts so you can create characteristics that aren't immediately deducible through descriptions, or act as generic modifiers for things like body mass, density, magic?, metabolic rate (hot vs. cold blooded), things of that nature.

I imagine you could develop organ structures along these exact same lines as well.

I really like how you've structured things in such a way that they'll provide stats, gamey numbers stuff for players and as mechanics, as well as SPECIFIC advantages. That was my biggest gripe with Spore, is that it only had these generic values adaptations contributed.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 10, 2011, 11:39:15 am
Just had a random thought come up.

When generating the animals, make sure the game considers their environments and habitats.  Say you were creating a new creature in a forest.  It considers the fauna and life there.  Is there a niche for animals that only eat off the floor of the forest, or are they're many of that already?  Are there trees with high hanging fruit?  Better give them the ability to climb, have long necks, or possibly even throw/spit projectiles.  Likewise for carnivores.  You need to generate an animal that could consistently defeat and then devour some animal niche in the forest.  But having too fierce of one wouldn't make since, as that would over hunt and run out of animals to go after.  Might not be worth it, but at least have the generator consider some niches and relative ferociousness of carnivores.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 10, 2011, 03:56:03 pm
Some thoughts on stats and derived stats insofar as I'm plotting them out thus far. There will be more derived statistics than this; these are just some of the most basic and important of the bunch.

PRIMARY STATS:
=====

Strength  --.
Endurance   |--- (Physical)
Agility      --'

Intelligence --.
Willpower       |--- (Mental)
Charisma     --'

DERIVED STATS:
============

Speed: 10 base + (AGI / 2) + (10 / size)

(Every 10 speed = 2 tiles/second)

The smaller the creature, the greater the speed bonus, obviously - but the difference between the speed of a 100 lb. creature and a 1000 lb. creature (at least, the difference caused by weight) is negligible. This is intended.

Defense: (END / 2) + (.5 * sqrt(size))

Defense = % damage absorption. Capped at 75% overall (this is, obviously, a LOT of damage absorption). Size-bonus caps at 25%, meaning a creature can only get to the 75% cap by being 2500+ lbs. and having 100+ END. Size bonus is meant to realistically reflect the fact that an ax-blow to something the size of a rabbit should cause much more damage than an ax-blow to something the size of a giraffe, regardless of the natural relative 'toughness' of both creatures (relative to its size, the giraffe is probably much flimsier, but size still makes a difference).

Armor Class (AC):

Damage deflection. Granted by both natural armor-giving morphological qualities and artificial means. NOT %-based. Deflects a random amount of damage in a range that is determined by summing up the minimum/maximum range numbers of all components that add to AC.

HP: (STR + END) + Size/4

Pretty straightforward. Bigger = more HP. This is different from damage absorption, which can be bypassed by, say, most kinds of magic, or by toxins, or a number of other means. Regardless of how tough it is, a creature the size of the Empire State Building should still take more work to bring down than a very hardy, thickly built rodent.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Outcast Orange on February 10, 2011, 05:09:51 pm
You should only start out with local common animals known, and possibly a few of the others heard of, but still unknown.

There should be a library structure you can visit in certain larger towns or even city exclusive places to learn all the knowledge of that location's animal populations, such as basic characteristics and relative danger of creatures, with the occasional oversight caused by some level of hysteria or misinterpretation.

I'd love to venture to a new place and get excited when I find out they have a library that will facilitate completing my Pokedex bestiary.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mephansteras on February 10, 2011, 05:40:17 pm
Hmm. You'll need some way to lookup what creatures you know. Or have the game show you what you do know when you mouse-over a creature (or however you look at things).

Combination might be best.

And, of course, you want the game to add information as you discover creatures on your own. See that cow-thing breathe fire? Now you know they can do that!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: freeformschooler on February 10, 2011, 05:45:40 pm
Oh I just noticed you lowered the resolution requirements. I love you for this.
Worldgen is pretty awesome, too. Keep on truckin'!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 11, 2011, 12:52:51 pm
Currently working in mouse support just to get it done early.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 14, 2011, 01:02:05 pm
Ooh... what does this button do?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mouse support for menus is in, which means navigating the World Atlas can now be done completely by mouse (which is surprisingly convenient). I also coded up a multi-threading ButtonBox class that'll allow hover-over buttons to be used. They've been tossed into the WorldGen process. For some reason the mouse pointer won't show up in screencaps, but it shows up just fine in the actual console window, so you'll have to take my word for it that it's hovering over the highlighted button.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on February 14, 2011, 02:07:52 pm
The land of Uraur
Long ago, the world was populated by the ancien Imor.
However, the Imor empire fell during the great cataclysm now referred
to only as the 'Yeodo'.

this little story, was it procedurally generated? to what extent?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 14, 2011, 02:49:26 pm
They all start out with simple little catastrophe-blurbs like that. They're not particularly procedural except for some slight variations in sentence structure/word use and the names that are generated.

Eventually the point of this will be to start each world out with some type of catastrophic backdrop that's been buried in history and can gradually be uncovered by the pro-/antagonist PC. I've been watching a lot of Hayao Miyazaki films lately and they've provided a great deal of inspiration both in terms of the kinds of worlds he imagined and the sorts of plots he tends to use. I'd like to emulate this to some degree in Cult; the PC can uncover aspects of some world-changing event that happened in the past (but these world-changing events should NOT be cookie-cutter and the different types and unique characteristics of generated events should be thought-provoking and perhaps even teasingly allegorical) and then decide what his/her role will in relation to those events. Will she uncover a buried artifact of destruction and use it for her own purposes? Will she attempt to prevent a similarly developing catastrophe? Or perhaps s/he will discover a link between the old world and the present that puts current global events in an entirely new light (things like this should be hidden from the player in the beginning of the game, obviously).

Of course, the player could also choose to entirely ignore meta-plot, which is perfectly fine. The game should be sandboxy enough for this to be an option.

Given that a large part of Cult's gameplay will revolve around religion and deities, intertwining these two elements also seems like a good probability to include (though it shouldn't be mandatory). Some worlds could use 'the decline of gods and the rise of <sentient species>' as their thematic backdrop, with the player ultimately making a choice between preserving the values of the old world or purging them forever and beginning a new era.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on February 14, 2011, 03:09:02 pm
I like the planning so far. As for various derived/base stats, I assume body/limb types will affect them?

Also, where have you learned the Python you know? Could you link me to various tutorials/resources?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 14, 2011, 03:28:41 pm
I like the planning so far. As for various derived/base stats, I assume body/limb types will affect them?

Also, where have you learned the Python you know? Could you link me to various tutorials/resources?

Re: stats, yes. Morphology will affect stats, derived stats, skills, and in some cases, special abilities. They will also affect weight.

As for Python, it's a relatively easy language to learn if you have any knowledge of any other type of code at all. I'd be hard-pressed to remember exactly where I started. I did go through a fair bit of the 'Dive Into Python', which I recommend. At some point I just started coding small utilities, though, because I've found self-teaching in this manner is generally much quicker and will give you a better taste for how things work than reading guides.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on February 14, 2011, 04:17:08 pm
I've just had a hard time finding new material. I can't master python if I don't know what to master. But Dive Into Python seems to have lots of juicy info :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 14, 2011, 04:29:17 pm
Blacken of #bay12prog (http://irc://irc.newnet.net/bay12prog) linked me to this. (http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWay.pdf)  Seems nice so far.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on February 14, 2011, 06:34:45 pm
Been there, done that. I've learned what that book has/had to teach(string formatting, command prompt usage, and the fact that gedit is <3 are the only things I can remember learning). I've learned the basics(all main data types/object types(AFAIK anyway)), and was mostly wondering "Welp, where do I go now?". Sure, Dive Into Python is basic too, but it has all of the basics. Lots of stuff I've missed.
But enough of my escapades.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 16, 2011, 10:39:04 pm
Coder's block.

From code:

        # Morphological Characteristics (Shape of Limb/Body Part)

        # [Predations, Biomes, Exclusions, Stat Mods, Descriptive Synonyms, % Weight Mod]
        # Exclusions = Other morph. characteristics which should not be shared with this one. Ex. long & short
        # grade_off = Excludes intensity gradient AND variable stat changes. Changes must be static!

        limbdict = {}
        limbdict['long'] = ['*','*',['short'],[('SPD',2),('AGI',1),('STR',-1),('DEF',-2)],['long','lengthy','protracted'],0]
        limbdict['short'] = ['*','*',['long'],[('DEF',2),('STR',1),('AGI',-1),('SPD',-2)],['short','stubby','stumpy'],-5]
        limbdict['thick'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('END',2),('DEF',1),('SPD',-1),('AGI',-2)],['thick','heavy','dense','solid'],5]
        limbdict['thin'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky'],[('AGI',2),('SPD',1),('DEF',-1),('END',-2)],['thin','light','flimsy','reedy'],-10]
        limbdict['many-jointed'] = ['*','*',['grade_off','stumpy'],[('AGI',8),('END',-4),('SPD',-4)],['multi-jointed','several-jointed','many-jointed'],0]
        limbdict['muscular'] = ['*','*',['lithe'],[('STR',2),('DEF',1),('AGI',-1),('END',-2)],['brawny','muscular','burly'],5]
        limbdict['lithe'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky'],[('SPD',3),('STR',-2),('DEF',-1)],['sinewy','lithe','supple'],-5]
        limbdict['bulky'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('STR',3),('END',-2),('AGI',-1)],['bulky','massive','hefty','immense'],15]
        limbdict['stumpy'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe','many-jointed','grade_off'],[('DEF',10),('STR',6),('AGI',-10),('SPD',-6)],['stumpy','stocky','stout'],5]       

        tentdict = {}
        tentdict['long'] = ['*','*',['short'],[('SPD',2),('AGI',1),('STR',-1),('DEF',-2)],['long','lengthy','protracted'],0]
        tentdict['short'] = ['*','*',['long'],[('DEF',2),('STR',1),('AGI',-1),('SPD',-2)],['short','stubby','stumpy'],-5]
        tentdict['thick'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('END',2),('DEF',1),('SPD',-1),('AGI',-2)],['thick','heavy','dense','solid'],5]
        tentdict['thin'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky'],[('AGI',2),('SPD',1),('DEF',-1),('END',-2)],['thin','light','flimsy','reedy'],-10]
        tentdict['muscular'] = ['*','*',['lithe'],[('STR',2),('DEF',1),('AGI',-1),('END',-2)],['brawny','muscular','burly'],5]
        tentdict['lithe'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky','muscular'],[('SPD',3),('STR',-2),('DEF',-1)],['sinewy','lithe','supple'],-5]
        tentdict['bulky'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('STR',3),('END',-2),('AGI',-1)],['bulky','massive','hefty','immense'],15]
        tentdict['stumpy'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe','grade_off'],[('DEF',3),('STR',2),('AGI',-3),('SPD',-2)],['stumpy','stocky','stout'],5]
        tentdict['sucker-covered'] = ['*','*',['grade_off'],[('AGI',8),('SPD',-4)],['sucker-covered']]

        digitdict = {}
        digitdict['long'] = ['*','*',['short'],[('AGI',3),('STR',-1),('DEF',-2)],['long','lengthy','protracted'],0]
        digitdict['short'] = ['*','*',['long'],[('DEF',2),('STR',1),('AGI',-1),('ATK',-2)],['short','stubby','stumpy'],-1]
        digitdict['thick'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('END',2),('DEF',1),('ATK',-1),('AGI',-2)],['thick','heavy','dense','solid'],1]
        digitdict['thin'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky'],[('AGI',3),('DEF',-1),('END',-2)],['thin','light','flimsy','reedy'],-1]
        digitdict['many-jointed'] = ['*','*',['grade_off','stumpy'],[('AGI',8),('END',-4),('DEF',-4)],['multi-jointed','several-jointed','many-jointed'],0]
        digitdict['muscular'] = ['*','*',['lithe','bony'],[('STR',2),('DEF',1),('AGI',-1),('END',-2)],['brawny','muscular','burly'],1]
        digitdict['lithe'] = ['*','*',['thick','bulky','muscular','bony'],[('AGI',3),('STR',-2),('DEF',-1)],['sinewy','lithe','supple'],-1]
        digitdict['bulky'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe'],[('STR',3),('END',-2),('AGI',-1)],['bulky','massive','hefty','immense'],2]
        digitdict['stumpy'] = ['*','*',['thin','lithe','many-jointed','grade_off'],[('DEF',10),('STR',6),('AGI',-10),('ATK',-6)],['stumpy','stocky','stout'],1]
        digitdict['clawed'] = ['*',['Terrestrial','Subterranean','Amphibian'],['grade_off'],[('ATK',10),('AGI',-2)],['clawed','spurred'],1]
        digitdict['taloned'] = ['*',['Aerial'],['grade_off'],[('ATK',10),('AGI',-2)],['taloned'],1]
        digitdict['bony'] = ['*','*',['muscular','lithe'],[('END',2),('STR',-2)],['bony','gaunt','skeletal'],-1]

        hoofdict = {}
        hoofdict['long'] = ['*','*',['short'],[('AGI',3),('STR',-1),('DEF',-2)],['long','lengthy','protracted'],1]
        hoofdict['short'] = ['*','*',['long'],[('DEF',2),('STR',1),('AGI',-1),('ATK',-2)],['short','stubby','stumpy'],-2]
        hoofdict['thick'] = ['*','*',['thin'],[('END',2),('DEF',1),('ATK',-1),('AGI',-2)],['thick','heavy','dense','solid'],2]
        hoofdict['thin'] = ['*','*',['thick'],[('AGI',3),('DEF',-1),('END',-2)],['thin','light','flimsy','reedy'],-2]
        hoofdict['stumpy'] = ['*','*',['thin','grade_off'],[('DEF',10),('STR',6),('AGI',-10),('ATK',-6)],['stumpy','stocky','stout'],2]
        hoofdict['cloven'] = ['*','*',['single-toed','grade_off'],[('SPD',10)],['cloven','two-toed'],0]
        hoofdict['single-toed'] = ['*','*',['cloven','grade_off'],[('SPD',6)],['single-toed','three-toed','five-toed'],0]

Format of the entries follows the commented-out reference guide at the top. The entries that contain 'no_grade' are not given an intensity multiplier. Both the weight modifier and the stat modifiers are by percentage.

Asterisks in place of acceptable predation/sphere lists will be parsed as 'this morphological quality is a general trait available to any predation/biome'.

Anyhow, I am rather bogged down in this section. Mostly with trying to come up with more traits/morphological variety. This, obviously, is just a small slice of what's needed. Add on to that the fact that there are a lot of exotic and/or predation- or biome-specific features or traits, and the amount of content needed is a bit daunting. Nothing to do for it but to keep plodding on, I suppose.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Acanthus117 on February 17, 2011, 05:34:14 am
Dullard, you deserve a fucking medal.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Korbac on February 17, 2011, 08:04:43 am
Don't forget mouthes and eyes and noses!  ;D

Sweet work Dude Dullard.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 17, 2011, 03:35:53 pm
Thank you for the comments.

Done:

Legs
Arms
Digits
Tentacles
Fins
Hooves
Paws
Hands

Still to go:

Wings
Tails
Shells
Jaws
Teeth/Fangs
Eyes
Ears
Noses
Fur/Hair/Scales/Feathers
Skin/Exoskeleton (or in some cases mucous membranes)
Nails/Claws
Pincers (of both the end-of-extremity and mouth varieties)
Tongues
Torsos
Hips
Segmented Bodies
Stings
Horns
Antennae
Exotic Appendages - Anglerfish-style luminescent lures, spinnerets, Etc.
Probably more that I can't think of at the moment

Random thought: I should probably cover gender differentiation. Not in the actual, erm, business areas (there is definitely such a thing as TMI in a videogame), but in terms of differentiation of physical appearance of the type typically seen in birds and many other types of animals where males and females have different roles/responsibilities or are faced with very different life-choices.

Eventually, once I get a functional layout of all skills used by non-sentient creatures, I'll also have to work in skill modifiers to all of this. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, though.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on February 17, 2011, 07:14:25 pm
Yeah. He really does need a medal. Two in fact. Nah, fifteen would be better.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 17, 2011, 10:36:27 pm
Just don't swamp yourself if you feel overwhelmed.  I'd hate to see you burn out over extremities like this.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Blargityblarg on February 19, 2011, 07:28:48 am
Just don't swamp yourself if you feel overwhelmed.  I'd hate to see you burn out over extremities like this.

Oh god. Pun intended?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 19, 2011, 01:01:45 pm
Retooled:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

More needs to be added to derived stats, including magic-affecting statistics and non-combat stats such as carry weight.

Input is welcome.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 19, 2011, 01:06:50 pm
Silly, stupid question.

Does that mean in one world, it's very possible for quadrupeds to start a civ?  Or will they all be bipedal humanoids?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 19, 2011, 01:12:29 pm
Entirely possible for non-bipeds to start a civ. For that matter, it should be possible to end up with a civilization of arthropod-like herbivores, or limbless but highly intelligent furred worms. Though I may or may not make some kind of tool manipulation a requirement for sentience. Depends on how imaginative I want to get with non-traditional architecture and development. A race of incredibly intelligent Dune-style sandworms could probably form a civilization, but the trick is figuring out how they'd 'build' something an adventurer could explore, or have recorded history or political structures, etc. Not that I can't imagine ways in which they could, but translating that to sane gameplay is more difficult.

(Also, figuring out how such a race could explore smaller architecture without completely obliterating it would be a problem. There might have to be a size restriction on player-available races.)

Non-earth evolution should also produce some sentient species that use non-primate-like means to control objects. Highly developed mouth-parts, tails, wings, and so on. Tentacles are also generally promising. Weighting morphological function according to actual physical features will help with this; I'll have the system identify physical traits that are more likely to result in fine manipulation of physical objects and, for relatively small number of species per world, allow those parts to develop towards tool use.

Also, from a player standpoint, it would probably generally be less interesting to play as races that can't manipulate objects very well, especially in terms of traditional roguelike equipment-gathering play. Perhaps magic could be used as a stand-in for tool-manipulating extremities in some cases, though. I suppose my race of theoretical uber-worms could construct armor and complicated architecture for themselves if they had telekinetic abilities.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 19, 2011, 01:20:17 pm
Oral tradition, I suppose?  You could make natural land features like caves pop up more commonly, and a semi-intelligent race can create small packs around them.  Not enough to make an entire city or town, but I'm sure a race of bunnies can support a 30-member pack around a bear cave.  Oral tradition, if they can somehow speak, can also be an element.  They tell their children about history and such.

This would result in highly exaggerated history, though that's not a bad thing.  A diplomatic and precise race of humanoids could have their own history to a T, but that tribe of sloths believe that their founding fathers fought a minotaur in hand-to-hand combat...  all thanks to misinterpreted story about a sloth climbing on top of a cow!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: quip on February 19, 2011, 01:34:20 pm
Oral tradition, I suppose?  You could make natural land features like caves pop up more commonly, and a semi-intelligent race can create small packs around them.  Not enough to make an entire city or town, but I'm sure a race of bunnies can support a 30-member pack around a bear cave.  Oral tradition, if they can somehow speak, can also be an element.  They tell their children about history and such.

This would result in highly exaggerated history, though that's not a bad thing.  A diplomatic and precise race of humanoids could have their own history to a T, but that tribe of sloths believe that their founding fathers fought a minotaur in hand-to-hand combat...  all thanks to misinterpreted story about a sloth climbing on top of a cow!
"My father once got drunk and tried to pick a fight with some uber dangerous monster that killed him."
"Yeah? Well my father once blew up every monster in the world... With his laserbeam eyes!"
"... Touche."
(Yes, touche should have an accent but I'm too lazy to give it one.)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2011, 02:36:17 pm
At the very least, a gender tag will be useful for assigning behavior to castes, and for use in world-gen and population maintenance algorithms. And that's before you decide to go anywhere near gender differentiation within species (with a fantasy twist, like, females have wings, that kind of thing.)

I feel like you're missing something beyond physical/mental. Since this is a game about god's and cults, shouldn't there be some stats to reflect spirituality, spiritual power, or spiritual connectedness to the natural/supernatural world? That may be too contrived for your tastes, but given the subject of the game, I think it might be apropos. Also consider the split between "gods" and creatures of a purely supernatural or mythological origin. The Titans, for example, versus the Olympian or Norse deities. You've already mentioned that you need to write up the magic-impacting stats....but I think you should start from something conceptually a little broader. So something like stats that impact more than just an MP pool/MP regen/damage/success modifier.

For example, consider a stat that is not really on a Bad - Good scale.

So "Spirituality" 0 to 100.

0 to 50 means a creature is 0 to 100% connected to the physical reality. Spells don't work as well on them, they don't cast magic as well. Spirituality 50 to 100 means the creature is 0 to 100% connected to the non-physical reality. They're great spellcasters but highly vulnerable to spells themselves.

You could end up with a race of ethereal creatures that are somewhat insubstantial. With tentacles, to boot.

Also your game implies a few levels of social interaction, yet you lack a category for anything social. Where the line is between your own design, and approaching D&D or WoD, is up to you. But you've got the ideal setup for your physical/mental mechanics....I say you take it up yet another notch. 

The unfortunate part about social skills is they can be somewhat morally judgmental. For example, Empathy might be a stat that governs how well non-hostile encounters between different sentient species goes. Yet Empathy as a stat implies having high empathy is a good thing, low empathy bad. Depending on how you want the player to perceive certain mechanics, that might not be your bag.

But even a stat like "Sociability" that just defines the overall level of the race's social savvy would fill out things a little better.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 19, 2011, 03:14:59 pm
nenjin, thanks for the comments.

Obviously, gender differentiation requires individual creatures being defined as one gender or another, so that's already planned.

I really don't like the idea of reflecting spirituality as a 'stat', personally. Aside from the fact that I feel that 6 stats is more than enough (overabundance of stats is not to my liking, and IMHO more than 6 starts to get confusing for a player), I think that spiritual prowess should be treated more dynamically. Besides, making it a stat would create a 'dump stat' for all non-sentient creatures. A frog is not in dire need of spirituality.

Better, IMHO, to consider 'what kinds of things does a given deity/religion value in a person?' and 'what kinds of things can a person do to increase their standing within a religion?' and let spiritual standing work itself out based on that. Spreading a religion, in general, should also always increase the favor of the person doing the converting. I'd like religions to be a lot more sensible and in-depth than most shallow simulations provide. Rather than just assigning a religion with something like 'this deity relates to the sphere of Wealth, so having more money is good', a mythological reason for the deity favoring a certain set of actions should exist: 'According to legend, Urgard the Coinsmith hammered out the first coins and imbued them with his power, then cast them into the well of the sky, where they became the stars, moons, planets, and the two suns. As a sign of respect to Urgard, his temples mint coins bearing heavenly symbols. It is said that casting such a coin into a well once a day brings about the favor of Urgard.'

The difference between gods and creatures of supernatural origin will be considered, no worries. That is why creature gen is separated into several parts, like all other segments of worldgen.  :)

Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2011, 05:07:03 pm
Religion can be complicated and I have yet to see a game REALLY use all aspects. Afterall there is Ferver, Favor, and Zeal.

Quote
Probably more that I can't think of at the moment

I am unfortunately devilishly good at making huge lists.

For example you didn't include: Beaks and Proboscouses (or however you spell it)

As for "Players need characters who can manipulate objects well" I do find it interesting for the idea that creatures who do not have such an ability compensate with magical abilities. Afterall in order to compete to the point where they have land they have to have the ability to develop tools, form communities, and use them.

Will you seperate magical abilities from magic spell ability? Will spirits be involved just like old fashioned magic?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 19, 2011, 05:10:48 pm
It looks good.  I understand and appreciate the attention to detail you're giving.  Having deities with so much detail is...  Awesome.  Most statically made deities aren't so detailed.

So, will magic be an important part of the game?

I think it'd be interesting to form a cult, or have cults form on their own, that are opposed to deities and seek to remove them from power by force and/or disbelief (Without making it a one-sided commentary on RL religion).  While it'd be cool to be able to do that using pure physical prowess, fighting a being equated with godhood with just a bit of muscle and cunning on your side would be a bad idea.  Having magic would also solve the tools thing, since magic, or psychic powers (Avoiding the "Is magic magical if it's understood and controlled" thing) is a very potent tool, and would also allow for creatures that can't talk communicate mentally.

Having a number of modifiers for the game would be ideal, similar to Dwarf Fortress's race personalities, but for the world in general as well as for races.  Starting up a world with 0% spirituality and trying to convert the masses would be fun.  Being able to choose how random the world's races are (And if it includes humans and other creatures from earth) would be awesome.

On that note, how far will people be able to progress physically?  Far more than here on earth without magical assistance?  How realistic do you plan on wounds to be?

Finally: Do you have some sort of plan for how and when you're going to do this?  I just realized that that's one of the things I see in most successful indie games, but I didn't know if you had one or not.  I'm asking these questions more for myself than to help with the design process, but I guess the result is the same.

Oh god. Pun intended?

I noticed it right after I wrote it.  My best puns happen on accident, unfortunately. ::)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mithras on February 19, 2011, 05:21:34 pm
So have you decided what to do about having world gen decide which creatures become sentient?

The thing that occured to me was using body parts to determine sentience. Something like creatures must use at least one body part for communication in order to gain sentience, sentient creatures must then have at least one body for fine manipulation of physical objects in order to form a civilisation. Creatures must have at least one body part used for imagination in order to form religions.

I added the last bit because I like the idea of animals that can't communicate or build anything of real use having dieties.

Also you're doing great with this stuff it's satisfying just to read about your prgoress.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2011, 05:32:07 pm
Quote
Rather than just assigning a religion with something like 'this deity relates to the sphere of Wealth, so having more money is good', a mythological reason for the deity favoring a certain set of actions should exist: 'According to legend, Urgard the Coinsmith hammered out the first coins and imbued them with his power, then cast them into the well of the sky, where they became the stars, moons, planets, and the two suns. As a sign of respect to Urgard, his temples mint coins bearing heavenly symbols. It is said that casting such a coin into a well once a day brings about the favor of Urgard.'

Well, to be fair....is that more a procedurally generated backstory that still ends up at "having money is good?" Or are the different ways to gain favor and worship going to be a product of the procedural gen that results in ultra specific stuff like "casting such a coin into....."

Would each aspect or sphere just be pulled out of the generated backstory...or would it work in reverse? 

As actual specific stats, to me it's not necessarily about dictating religion through stats. More like an opportunity to write rules into reality for creature creation that sort of supercede the religion portion. Like all life has some fundamental relationship to the axis of power. You'd ask why a frog would have a need for a magic stat, but it's not necessarily that a frog needs to cast magic. In general, large numbers of creatures would fall in the middle with no special relationship. But having a stat that does, at times, provide for some special relationship would just add another branch to the creature morphology, beyond limbs and adaptations and such. Think of it like D&D Psionics. Everything in the world is placed somewhere in the hierarchy of psionic ability, and most sit at the bottom. It's just one more trait that is global among all creatures.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 19, 2011, 05:56:34 pm
Random thought.  For most creature species, Magic could be skewed far to the left; that is, not being affected by magic.  For any creature that randomly happens to be farther to the right, however, their evolution takes more liberties.

Say for example a creature rolls a 75.  Perhaps they are able to be able to communicate to other pack members through smells?  Not just simple smells either, I mean they can have entire conversations by changing their breath.  This is impossible, normally, but magic took place in their creation.  It could also create deformities, like a toad being able to breathe fire because it interacts with the magical world in some way, or having wings that let you fly despite being too heavy.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on February 19, 2011, 06:28:31 pm
On the topic of civilizations, if there are several species that happen to gain sentience, will the more developed and/or powerful species gain a bonus when expanding their territory? And while on that page, if they can communicate(I imagine there are extreme language barriers between species), may they even be friendly to each other? Of course, this is unlikely, but there are a whole lot of stuff to keep track of and simulate when it comes to species and civs and such. Especially when you might have deities that spice things up(helping/destroying species, the world, maybe even some miracles going on).

Hm, I need to get a clearer picture of how gods/religions/cults will work.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 20, 2011, 12:33:46 am
Lots of great input. I'll respond to as much as I can tomorrow morning if at all possible. For now I need sleep.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2011, 01:49:03 am
Lots of great input. I'll respond to as much as I can tomorrow morning if at all possible. For now I need sleep.

Take your time
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 20, 2011, 09:57:07 am
Religion can be complicated and I have yet to see a game REALLY use all aspects. Afterall there is Ferver, Favor, and Zeal.

Yep, that's part of the reason I settled on using religion in Cult - I can't really recall any games that handled it in a way that was imaginative, in-depth, fun, and not particularly allegorical or intent on making a statement about RL religions.

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For example you didn't include: Beaks and Proboscouses (or however you spell it)

Thanks, and good spots! They shall be added.

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Will you seperate magical abilities from magic spell ability? Will spirits be involved just like old fashioned magic?

I think there will definitely be a gap between 'sorcery' and deity/religion-given abilities, yep. Although there may perhaps be some overlap (I can imagine that the Cthulhu-esque deities would encourage the use of sorcery, and there's no reason other gods couldn't, too). I can't remark too much on this, though, because it's just not that fleshed out yet.

On the topic of civilizations, if there are several species that happen to gain sentience, will the more developed and/or powerful species gain a bonus when expanding their territory?

Yes, I think nation expansion and conflict will get a big leg-up when I'm a bit further along with finishing creature/god generation and integrating all the different parts of worldgen that need to be integrated for these sorts of things to emerge.

It looks good.  I understand and appreciate the attention to detail you're giving.  Having deities with so much detail is...  Awesome.  Most statically made deities aren't so detailed.

So, will magic be an important part of the game?

Thanks, and yes, it will be.

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I think it'd be interesting to form a cult, or have cults form on their own, that are opposed to deities and seek to remove them from power by force and/or disbelief (Without making it a one-sided commentary on RL religion).  While it'd be cool to be able to do that using pure physical prowess, fighting a being equated with godhood with just a bit of muscle and cunning on your side would be a bad idea.  Having magic would also solve the tools thing, since magic, or psychic powers (Avoiding the "Is magic magical if it's understood and controlled" thing) is a very potent tool, and would also allow for creatures that can't talk communicate mentally.

Interesting thought. I think it would be pretty difficult to take down a god - most of them won't manifest in any sort of physical form, I suspect, except for on very rare occasions. It's much safer to maintain your existence through a following of mortals. I could see that if their following became diminished enough, they might be forced to make a choice between coming to the mortal realm and attempting to inspire belief in themselves or fading into obscurity and legend, which could mean they'd never be resurrected (unless a player character happened to stumble across one of their ancient, buried shrines and decided to bring them back into existence, that is!). I don't think that gods would 'die' if they didn't have believers - rather, they depend on believers to maintain a link between themselves and this realm of existence.

I could definitely see warlike gods manifesting into a temporary physical form and going on a rampage or whatnot if they felt threatened enough.  :D

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On that note, how far will people be able to progress physically?  Far more than here on earth without magical assistance?  How realistic do you plan on wounds to be?

More than on earth, yes. Maybe not as much as in a traditional RL, where a single player can hack through literal hordes upon hordes of powerful monsters, but that will be offset by being able to recruit and maintain parties and eventually armies.

I do not think the combat and wounding system will be as complex as DF's. Not that I see anything wrong with it, I just don't think it would be necessary. Besides, designing internal organs for imaginary procedural creatures would be... daunting, to say the least. I might be persuaded to add things like broken bones/damaged limbs/etc. just for the sake of variety, only because I could see tying medical needs into the game in such a way that it would be beneficial to gather ingredients from plants/corpses/etc. to treat such wounds, or to maintain your party/army.

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Finally: Do you have some sort of plan for how and when you're going to do this?  I just realized that that's one of the things I see in most successful indie games, but I didn't know if you had one or not.  I'm asking these questions more for myself than to help with the design process, but I guess the result is the same.

Do which part? The whole game? For now, I just want to focus on getting worldgen done; when I start designing gameplay I'll probably put something more akin to a long-term design plan up.

So have you decided what to do about having world gen decide which creatures become sentient?

It will most likely be based on the presence of certain types of body parts and their functionality, yep. I hadn't considered also weighting chances for complex communication, that's a good idea. I don't think 'imagination' would be quite as sensible, mostly because it would be hard to determine what an invertebrate without a brain would be using for such a purpose. Maybe a very complex nervous system functioning as a primitive brain, I don't know - but I'll leave that up to the imagination of the player, I think.

Well, to be fair....is that more a procedurally generated backstory that still ends up at "having money is good?" Or are the different ways to gain favor and worship going to be a product of the procedural gen that results in ultra specific stuff like "casting such a coin into....."

"Having money is good" might or might not be an aspect of such a religion; each should probably have general as well as very specific actions that lead towards favor.

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Would each aspect or sphere just be pulled out of the generated backstory...or would it work in reverse? 

It would probably work in reverse. Generating a backstory without some sort of relative basis of ideology would be difficult. If I know a god is somehow related to the sphere of Water, I can plug it into procedural story generation and have the engine come up with something, but it at least needs to be able to pick from a selection of water-related story elements to throw something sensible together. I suppose I could generate stories and then assign gods spheres based on them, but I think it would probably make them too random and mish-mash.

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...it's just one more trait that is global among all creatures.

I'll think about it; I'm just not sure it's how I want to handle magic and spirituality.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 20, 2011, 12:04:31 pm
Tails, wings, shells, proboscises, trunks, and beaks are finished, though I'm still tinkering with shells a bit. Having a look at some of the field guides to seashell collection has sent me on a bit of a crazy spree for adding weird shapes to the shell dictionary.

It occurred to me while I was writing some of the morphological traits in that, since I am not using a 'Charisma' stat, I should probably have something else stand-in for the relative 'attractiveness' of creatures, objects, et cetera. What I settled on was that each sentient species should have a list of qualities that they innately like and dislike that should roughly align with their own appearance and the things they feel comfortable with. Subterranean races should like architecture featuring confined spaces and dim lighting. Creatures with soft, plush fur or tufts of hair should (probably) like fuzzy things, just like the animals that we humans tend to think of as 'cute' tend to be mammalian.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 21, 2011, 05:28:23 am
That sounds like a perfectly logical compromise. I think as humans we're more likely to interact with things that display our own biomorphs, than some psychic pile of jelly and tentacles.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 21, 2011, 11:13:40 am
But would that Psychic Pile of Jelly and Tentacles find humans more attractive than members of its own race?

From the perspective of the PPJT race, would that be some sort of twisted form of bestiality?

...Actually, let's not delve too deeply into this subject.


Thanks for keeping us updated.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 21, 2011, 11:21:25 am
Yyyyyyyyyyyeah, let's not.  xD  Still, it'd be interesting to find a non-humanoid creature around.  A tribe of large vultures who survive by just being incredibly intelligent could be fun to meet.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on February 22, 2011, 04:27:30 pm
I think creatures should be able to have randomized sounds. It'd be like this.

The Red Mekal goes "Raaaaan-K!"

So, if the creature becomes sentient, this will be peppered throughout their speech!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mephansteras on February 22, 2011, 04:29:13 pm
Sounds help name creatures as well. In many languages the word for a lot of creatures is just the basic sound they make.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on February 22, 2011, 04:37:05 pm
So, the Red Mekal would probably just be the Red Rank?

Maybe there could be things. Like it could be COLOR SOUND, or BODYPART SOUND, or BODYPART COLOR, or whatever!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on February 22, 2011, 07:14:08 pm
A set up occurred me to.

Say that whether one race likes another (talking the macro level here) is 1/2 the differences in their morphology, and 1/2 the impact or difference of their likeability stat (Charisma.)

When creating racial opinions of each, the game would compare their morphological traits and give a higher score (up to 1/2 the score needed for "we love you guys) for each match. No matches implies the two races are constructed totally different.

Charisma would be what allows two totally different races to become friends, although it would have to be a lot of charisma to over come the differences between PPJT and a human.

Certain morphologies or adaptations could give a bonus or minus to this calc, regardless of whether it matches the other race.

Then, on the micro level (i.e. individual to individual interactions, nation to nation interactions) religious and cultural differences would come into play, further modifying the base "gut reaction" relationship between two entities.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: alfie275 on February 22, 2011, 08:04:50 pm
Sorry, havent read the thread much, so if it's been suggested, stupid me, but heres an idea:
Maybe worship could create the god, not the other way around, like, a species could worship a symbol, and a god grows from that. (Yes I have been reading terry prattchet lately).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on February 22, 2011, 08:06:49 pm
Sorry, havent read the thread much, so if it's been suggested, stupid me, but heres an idea:
Maybe worship could create the god, not the other way around, like, a species could worship a symbol, and a god grows from that. (Yes I have been reading terry prattchet lately).

I think it was going to be like...  Gods exist.  Many many Gods.  So much so that if you worship anything, you're likely worshiping a God.  They require worship to manifest any powers on the planet though.  So as more people worship a God, he/she/it grows more power and becomes able to interfere directly with the world or somesuch.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 23, 2011, 02:36:33 pm
Great to see all of this discussion going on! I really like the idea of creature names sometimes being associated with the sounds they make (although this would be rather difficult to implement with  multiple languages, TBH). Then again, the language code needs a complete overhaul at some point in the future anyway.

I've got a pretty nasty cold right now, so I haven't had a lot of time to get things done. I'd like to try to get more of the morphology stuff done today, though, since getting any further in creature gen depends pretty much exclusively on finishing it up.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: freeformschooler on February 23, 2011, 07:13:30 pm
Is there some place to test out what you've been doing? If you have precompiled versions, or anything. I couldn't find anything on you're blog or here (especially with the newer updates such as the resolution change) but I'm still following this and the dev blog regularly.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 23, 2011, 08:41:49 pm
I haven't made a precompiled release in quite some time. I can make one once I'm finished with creature gen, although I'd prefer not to do it before then, just because I want to be finished with this segment of generation and get it into the World Atlas so people can have access to the next major part of code. Also, I'm going to want direct feedback on the sorts of creatures that people end up with and what will need changing or expanding upon.

User-specified settings like the resolution and such will also require me to throw together an init.txt file, although this should be pretty quick and painless. At the moment they're completely configurable but I've just been 'hard setting' them via the code itself for testing purposes.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 23, 2011, 10:09:22 pm
Well, moving along... still have a lot to go.

Done:

Legs
Arms
Digits
Tentacles
Fins
Hooves
Paws
Hands
Wings
Tails
Shells
Jaws
Teeth/Fangs

Still to go:

Eyes
Ears
Noses
Fur/Hair/Scales/Feathers
Skin/Exoskeleton (or in some cases mucous membranes)
Nails/Claws
Pincers (of both the end-of-extremity and mouth varieties)
Tongues
Torsos
Hips
Segmented Bodies
Stings
Horns
Antennae
Exotic Appendages - Anglerfish-style luminescent lures, spinnerets, Etc.
Probably more that I can't think of at the moment

So, almost halfway there. I'm going to do a bit more tonight while I'm waiting for laundry to finish.

Oh, and here are the hellish things in the flesh:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm still adding new morphological traits to many of the body parts based on what I think of while I'm working on others, so each of the dictionaries will probably be somewhat larger by the time I'm done.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 28, 2011, 03:47:28 pm
Still to go:
========
Scales/Feathers
Skin/Exoskeleton (or in some cases mucous membranes)
Nails/Claws
Pincers (of both the end-of-extremity and mouth varieties)
Tongues
Torsos
Hips
Segmented Bodies
Stings
Horns
Antennae
Exotic Appendages

Getting much closer. I got a fair bit done today. Feeling better now that my fever has pretty much dissipated.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Carrion on February 28, 2011, 07:38:15 pm
I'm looking forward to trying the new build.  Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on March 01, 2011, 01:20:06 am
How are spirits even going to function?

(Also are you adding in the kinds of tongues? ohh my evil mind of HUGE expansive cateloging)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 01, 2011, 08:43:59 am
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

Spirits aren't creatures. They needn't function in the same manner that creatures do and have more license to be fantastical and magically-empowered.

As for tongues, look at my list.  :P
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on March 01, 2011, 12:32:54 pm
I know they arn't creatures.

I am just wondering what exactly spirits are in your game and their purpose.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on March 01, 2011, 01:20:09 pm
IIRC, sprites and graphics in general are still in the ? column for this project.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 01, 2011, 04:13:23 pm
I know they arn't creatures.

I am just wondering what exactly spirits are in your game and their purpose.

Spirits, as far as I'm going to be defining them, are 'less than gods but more than mundane creatures'. Not that a creature is prohibited from being magical in some ways, but I think the difference is in that a creature would be considered 'more physical than magical' while a spirit would be the opposite.

Spirits will be comparable to things like nyads/dryads, ghosts, phantoms, will-o-the-wisps, etc. They will not necessarily be good or evil and may be associated with persons, places, things, religions, or none.

Monsters, generated separately from spirits and creatures, will be genuinely nasty entities in the likeness of vampires, ghouls, zombies, and what have you. They won't necessarily be 'evil', but they'll definitely be hostile to the player in almost every situation, unless the player happens to side with forces that lend him power over such entities (or if the player happens to BECOME one through gameplay, naturally).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on March 01, 2011, 05:11:03 pm
I need to read more carefully.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: GrayFoxUA on March 01, 2011, 05:41:53 pm
So is this game going to be like Dwarf Fortress? It sounds similar which is good  :P
Bookmarked and gonna follow this. Sounds awesome!
Also the ability to found civilizations and religions? Time to create my very own cult.
Also will there be different game modes?  Or will it be sim creation like current Dwarf Fortress?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 01, 2011, 05:52:20 pm
So is this game going to be like Dwarf Fortress? It sounds almost identical which is good  :P

Well, I doubt it. The primary similarities Cult will share with DF are that its world will be very large and procedurally generated and that it features a (mostly) text-based look and feel. Cult will be mostly in first-person, will not prioritize fortress/city-building over other gameplay elements, and will (hopefully) be experienced as something like a mix between King's Quest and Dragon Age (with elements from any number of other genres thrown in) on massive amounts of steroids. I think a love of reading about things will probably be a common trait of future Cult players.

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Bookmarked and gonna follow this. Sounds awesome!
Also the ability to found civilizations and religions? Time to create my very own cult.
Also will there be different game modes?  Or will it be sim creation like current Dwarf Fortress?

No, no different game modes, aside from a World Atlas that will let players browse information about the worlds they've created. Thanks for your comments. :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on March 01, 2011, 08:29:22 pm
Quote
Spirits, as far as I'm going to be defining them, are 'less than gods but more than mundane creatures'. Not that a creature is prohibited from being magical in some ways, but I think the difference is in that a creature would be considered 'more physical than magical' while a spirit would be the opposite.

Ahh Spirits, elementals, and little gods.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Carrion on March 01, 2011, 08:54:44 pm
Cult will be mostly in first-person, will not prioritize fortress/city-building over other gameplay elements, and will (hopefully) be experienced as something like a mix between King's Quest and Dragon Age (with elements from any number of other genres thrown in) on massive amounts of steroids. I think a love of reading about things will probably be a common trait of future Cult players.

I am guessing that by 'first person' you mean, from the perspective of the protagonist and not 'first person perspective.'  Is that right?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 01, 2011, 09:00:38 pm
@Carrion - Yes, sorry, that was a slightly awkward phrasing. The game will be top-down so I was referring to the story perspective, not the actual physical perspective.

The only dictionary entries left to make are for segmented bodies, stings, horns, antennae, and exotic appendages. Which is wonderful, because this has been an incredibly tedious section of code to deal with. I'm not really looking forward to populating other content-driven areas in the future, though I imagine it'll be necessary to do so. I may make a repeat of this venture for plants at some point; I'd like the player to be able to read descriptions about both the flora and fauna of their world.

All told, I've added about 450 lines of code so far, so the trait dictionaries will probably amount to some 550 lines of code total once I've finished with the last few of them.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: GrayFoxUA on March 02, 2011, 10:22:46 am
Quote
Cult will be mostly in first-person
so if it's going to be first person what graphics will it be using? correct me if I misunderstood.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: quip on March 02, 2011, 11:04:41 am
Quote
Cult will be mostly in first-person
so if it's going to be first person what graphics will it be using? correct me if I misunderstood.
I thought it would use ASCI like all the other rougue(did I spell it right?)likes, then again even I do not trust my word on such subjects...
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Hugehead on March 02, 2011, 11:28:59 am
@Carrion - Yes, sorry, that was a slightly awkward phrasing. The game will be top-down so I was referring to the story perspective, not the actual physical perspective.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 03, 2011, 03:40:24 pm
All of the morphological trait dictionaries are complete (wooh!). I am currently working on the code that will generate body descriptions based on all of them. Next will be morphological function assignment and the addition of descriptive detail (selection of purely descriptive traits such as body coloration along with the actual description generator itself). Luckily, all of this should be immensely fun to code compared to the dictionaries, although body part functionality may (I suspect) be mildly tedious. It may also entail setting up skills, which might derail me for a while.

The good news, though, is that this means that I am one step closer to generating completely intact creature entries, which means I am one step closer to implementing a wholly new feature into worldgen and the Atlas! I hope to complete this soon and compile a new version of the code for people to play around with. :) Since worldgen has also been massively updated, it'll also be nice to release all the new stuff pertaining to terrain and nation generation.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on March 03, 2011, 04:16:25 pm
Looking forward to 0.16 and creature gen :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 09, 2011, 02:34:38 pm
So, I've been doing a bit of thinking lately, and I think there will be a slight change of plans. Or at least a slight change in my approach to getting this finished.

I've decided that once I finish with procedural creature generation, most of the rest of worldgen will go on hold. There is already sufficient data for each world for me to start on gameplay elements, and as much as the OCD perfectionist in me wants to finish worldgen completely before I start working on gameplay, it doesn't seem practical if I want to turn this into a serious project with sustained community interest. No matter how neat a game engine may be, without a way to interact with it, it just won't generate the momentum and interest necessary to propel it forward (at least, this is what I'm beginning to believe).

So, procedural creatures will be the last major hurdle before I begin working on gameplay itself. I'll still do a final tech demo release with the worldgen and World Atlas features that are currently functioning, and then I'll begin work on getting an actual game together. The first release or two are likely to be basic and probably somewhat buggy, with the primary draw begin an open, very large (and hopefully interestingly variated) world to wander around in and interact with to some degree. I doubt towns will be coded as of yet because the level of detail that civilizations will require in this game will necessitate me doing a lot of extra work on them before I start to implement them in-game (especially with some of the goals I have in mind like culture-differentiated architectural styles and whatnot).

But, anyhow, the good news is that after I get some gameplay elements in, I can work on worldgen and gameplay at the same time, since changes in gameplay will depend largely on adding new code to worldgen and then working it into the game in an interactive manner.

Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Dwarf on March 09, 2011, 03:36:09 pm
yay :3
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: mendonca on March 09, 2011, 04:01:06 pm
Good luck dude.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on March 09, 2011, 04:15:38 pm
Yeah, good luck. And great work so far, can't wait for the demo!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on March 09, 2011, 04:19:14 pm
Can I expect creatures by my birthday? I'll expect creatures for my birthday. And it'll be fun actually getting to PLAY the game ;D
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 10, 2011, 01:06:12 pm
There's a new post on the Dev Blog (http://cultrl.wordpress.com)!

Also, I'll reiterate the fun-to-look-at part of the update here, since most of the rest has already been posted in this thread.

The world now has swamps:
http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/swamps1.png

They are the ugly olive-colored tiles. Someday someone with actual skill at tile creation will design something nice for all of these sorts of things, I hope! Until then, you get my funky-looking blotches of non-art.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 12, 2011, 12:14:32 pm
Another new post (http://cultrl.wordpress.com) on the dev blog. Cut-n-pasted to here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Much progress has been made in the last few days, although I've been very busy with social obligations. But those are good because they keep me feeling chipper and productive. I'm ready to move on to new parts of the function-selection algorithm and I hope to be able to move on to creature description generation pretty soon. Brand new screens to come soon, methinks.

I may also take a slight detour to enable point-and-click dragging of the world map during worldgen for quicker navigation and overview. I created a 'scale map' button after terrain generation is finished to let users get a very quick look at the entirety of the world they've generated, because I figured it would be far more convenient than going to look at a generated PNG, even if it's not quite as pretty. But since convenience often takes precedence in terms of game enjoyability, I want to try to accommodate as much as possible.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2011, 07:09:17 pm
Sir, you are an inspiration to me, sir. If I ever make a game, in the credits will be David "Lord Dullard".
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 13, 2011, 07:35:59 am
Well, thank you, Fniff. That's very kind. :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on March 13, 2011, 04:01:00 pm
And that, Dullard, is what you need on the internet.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: squeakyReaper on March 13, 2011, 06:21:12 pm
I donated as "Kenneth Gould".  All I request is that you add Cheese at some point in the game.  Perhaps as a trading commodity.  Even if it isn't efficient or great, I just want cheese.  =)

10$ isn't much, but...  It's what I have on hand.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 13, 2011, 07:20:14 pm
Worry not, cheese shall be added! I'm on my smartphone at the moment so typing is awkward, but I'll shoot off an e-mail to you as soon as I get home tonight. As the #1 contributor I think a special bonus is in order. :)

Cheers and thanks much.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 13, 2011, 10:37:08 pm
I've got about three games that I've got lined up to donate to now, and one blog.  Some day, I'll have money...

Until I'm stable enough to indulge in some charity, I'll keep asking questions and making a nuisance of myself.  I guess that'll make up for the delay, right? ;D

Looking forward to what comes of this.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 13, 2011, 11:20:12 pm
More than make up for it, KoF! Your input has been excellent and extremely helpful.

I am dead tired and I *really* need sleep. Driving home took longer than I thought. E-mail first thing tomorrow (and more coding)!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: lishain on March 18, 2011, 03:27:50 am
I really look forward to what comes of this and wish you good luck.I decided to donate,because I want to support this
game development.20$ isn't much,but I hope that will help you a bit. :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 18, 2011, 07:11:48 am
Thanks so much! lishain, I've sent you an e-mail.

Early morning today (I was up at 6 for a conference call and because of an avian biology class that I had to take someone to). Creatures are coming along swimmingly, though creating varied descriptions definitely takes some doing. I'm really hoping to get enough done soon to post some screens (I could post some with progress now, but I'd really like to wait until the descriptions are more fleshed out so I can give people an idea of what to expect).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on March 23, 2011, 03:46:50 pm
*bimp*

How are the descriptions coming along?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 23, 2011, 05:54:59 pm
They are coming! I have some screenshots to post today. My time this morning was primarily spent completely rewriting the World Atlas menu implementation because I realized it was horribly inefficient. So, the latter part of the day will be reserved for adding to creature content.

Speaking of which, creature content *IS* coming along. It's just taking longer than anticipated (surprise, surprise), because, as usual, adding in the variation in content necessary for a world's worth of plausibly interesting descriptions takes a bit of doing. Luckily, the main stumbling block of getting the code framework in place is over and done with (at least for descriptions).

I'll post screens in just a moment.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 23, 2011, 06:03:07 pm
Okay, here are some screens of (very preliminary) work on the bestiary so far:

Bestiary Images
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I should note that although a fair amount of content related to limbs, body structures, and whatnot are already finished in the world generation process, I haven't gotten around to including all of it in the Atlas yet. Most of what I'm doing at this point is adding things line-by-line to tweak the way that descriptions end up reading to the user (there are still a lot of grammatical oopsies to weed out). I left some of these in the first couple of pictures just to display the sorts of things I'm in the process of sifting through (i.e., repetitious or redundant phrases/words like 'this animal is a blah blah animal').

The bestiary is going to end up displaying a wide variety of information about individual creatures, including detailed statistics and species characteristics, ranges of habitation, legends and references to each creature type within other sections of the Atlas, and so forth. For now I'm just focusing on hammering out the basics so that more can be added as I go. Luckily, with redesigned menus, that will be (blessedly) about a thousand times easier to manage.

Creatures are automatically given a representative ASCII character and color according to their name and which other colors have already been selected for other creatures. Eventually colors will correspond with individual creature traits (i.e. a brown-furred creature should end up with a brown character shade as long as there aren't already too many other creatures that are shades of brown, in which case an alternative will be selected based on other traits). For now colors are just randomly selected because I wanted to make sure the display code was working.

Creatures above a certain size category are given upper-case characters to give users an immediate reference on their size. I figured that players would probably want to have an immediate way to know 'oh crap, that thing's huge, maybe I'd better just leave it alone...'.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Levi on March 23, 2011, 06:05:25 pm
Oh that is cool.  I can't wait to see more.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on March 24, 2011, 09:13:29 am
Oh that is cool.  I can't wait to see more.  :)
Seconded :P Once the game is coming together, maybe someone would even sketch some of the creatures?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 24, 2011, 09:32:25 am
@ Pyrate: I was actually considering something like that. Unfortunately I have no way of drawing any non-ASCII graphics over the console at present (because SDL/pygame functionality is broken for the Python version of libTCOD). I think there are workarounds, but they'd be big time-sinks and at the moment it's probably much better for me to focus on making continued progress towards gameplay. There is an alternative possibility that I could create the images off-console and then blit them to the screen as ASCII characters using existing libTCOD functions, although really I don't have the artistic expertise to be attempting to draw any sort of decent-looking creatures (let alone the dozens/hundreds of morphological variations amongst them).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 24, 2011, 10:27:45 am
If ASCII graphics are the most accessible, that's cool.  But if something a little more aesthetic comes up, I won't be complaining.  ;)

Are you taking the Hermit's route of programming and making this all by yourself?  I'd offer to help, but I'm definitely not a professional, or even something like one.  I'm also assuming that there's another code hurdle if you wanted to go beyond ASCII - I don't know much about programming, though.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 24, 2011, 10:45:05 am
Yes, I am working on this alone. I wouldn't mind paying someone for artistic help but because of the flexibility of Python I feel the better solution would be to provide the framework for artistic modification and allow users (who are bound to be much better at anything of the sort than I am) to design and implement their own graphics.

There is a code hurdle to deal with if that's the case, which is that libTCOD contains functions that allow SDL graphics to be drawn over the console, but Pygame uses SDL surfaces which are different than actual SDL surfaces (even though Pygame is Python's equivalent of the SDL library). This means that libTCOD cannot create an SDL surface which is capable of being drawn on by Pygame, because it creates an *actual* SDL surface, whereas Pygame expects its own unique surface type.

That can be dealt with, but it would be a pretty hefty project in and of itself no matter which of several routes I take to implement a fix.

The other alternative is to abandon the libTCOD console completely, possibly using the library only for its terrain generation tools, and switching to Pygame or another graphical library (Pygame would probably be best). Again, this would require a considerable amount of time and effort. It's certainly not impossible, though, and it would probably be better done early than later on. But there is also a lot of functionality lost by giving up libTCOD, and I'm rather fond of ASCII myself, which I feel libTCOD does a very good job of making more acceptable to those who are concerned with visual style.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Levi on March 24, 2011, 01:31:49 pm
Might as well keep using Ascii for now, it works well for things like this and you could always switch things up later.  Most projects like this require an infrastructure rewrite at some point anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 30, 2011, 04:13:49 pm
More plodding through creature code has ensued since my last post. I'm working on things as I write this. This game is going to end up including the most insanely complex version of 'mad libs' ever made by the time I'm done with the various description/story generators.

I took a bit of a detour to make some improvements to the World Atlas in preparation for working on nation-related code. There's been a rewrite of the code that creates mini-maps to allow them to be more interactive; the player can now hover over any given nation in a mini-map from the 'Relations' screen to display its name and highlight its borders. Eventually detailed information about relations between the menu-selected nation and the secondary nation being hovered over by the cursor will show up automatically along with this; clicking on a nation will also do stuff, though I haven't decided yet whether it'll just be a direct shortcut to THAT nation's info page, or if it'll pull up a more complex list of interactions between the two countries in the past.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Korbac on March 30, 2011, 04:44:41 pm
I'd just like to re-iterate how awesome this is, Lord Dullard. You are a man after my own...umm...Sense of creativity.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 31, 2011, 06:13:42 am
Thanks, Korbac. :)

Easier to read now:

(http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/relcursor2.png)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on March 31, 2011, 06:16:12 am
Yeah, Reca's a bro.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: quip on March 31, 2011, 10:07:38 am
Yeah, Reca's a bro.
So true.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on March 31, 2011, 10:49:43 am
Yeah, Reca's a bro.
So true.

Yeah, he's so cool. You know Reca? This cop goes up to him and tells him he can't drive anymore. Reca just goes "Fine" and teleports himself to a fantasy game made by a guy, and then becomes a nation.

Reca's a bro.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2011, 03:09:55 pm
Reca is so cool your adviced only too look upon him with sun glasses or else your eyes will melt from the awsome.

Which isn't so bad because just his presence cures blindness.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on March 31, 2011, 04:19:49 pm
Reca is so cool your adviced only too look upon him with sun glasses or else your eyes will melt from the awsome.

Which isn't so bad because just his presence cures blindness.

Reca's so cool, he went up to Lord Dullard and insulted him.

Oh God I just created the next Chuck Norris. I pray this never catches on.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: quip on April 01, 2011, 09:41:09 am
Reca is so cool your adviced only too look upon him with sun glasses or else your eyes will melt from the awsome.

Which isn't so bad because just his presence cures blindness.

Reca's so cool, he went up to Lord Dullard and insulted him.

Oh God I just created the next Chuck Norris. I pray this never catches on.
Reca's so cool he challenged Chuck Norris to a fight... And won.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on April 01, 2011, 01:03:44 pm
Hey.

Don't we have like 14 different threads for this kind of silliness in GD? Don't muck up the man's project thread with it.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on April 01, 2011, 01:09:20 pm
Hey.

Don't we have like 14 different threads for this kind of silliness in GD? Don't muck up the man's project thread with it.

Ah, it keeps the thread alive at least.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 01, 2011, 01:20:20 pm
A bit of brainstorming:

Creature Dispersal Code Considerations

Starting areas: 1, 2, 3, or more? There should be an increasingly low chance of (more) starting areas, with the vast majority of creatures only having. However, some species should probably start out in multiple places to represent conglomerate species, i.e. those similar to rats, the peregrine falcon, etc, which can be found virtually everywhere on earth, or to emulate the separation and evolutionary branching of a species due to phenomena such as continental drift or natural disasters.

Habitat availability and 'leaps': Should creatures be able to spread to distant habitats? Not sure about this one. It seems like the likelihood should be very low, except for migratory or otherwise very mobile species. There should probably still be a small chance of this happening, however, since it has certainly occurred in real-life evolutionary history. All but the hardiest and most adaptable of species should be restricted to a single or small set of habitats/niches to represent specialization.

ETA: The bio major girlfriend says this is actually fairly likely over a long period of time if two suitable habitats are in a semi-reasonable proximity to one another even if creatures would normally never migrate between the two, because being forced out of habitat A by natural disaster, predation, our overpopulation can result in a creature ending up in habitat B. Cool.

Competition: Creatures that draw from the same food source(s) should be considered competition and should either slow the spread of species or out-compete them if there is not enough food availability.

Possibility of extincion: Animals should probably be able to go extinct, although I'd like this to be an extremely small chance, since presumably the sentient races of Cult are (mostly) not industrialized enough yet to represent a serious threat to nature. But being out-competed by other, similar, more successful species and/or being hunted into extinction a la the dodo bird are both possibilities to implement.

Some additional thoughts: The result of this code being well-thought out should be a world in which an adventurer can go anywhere and encounter new creatures with their own niches and behavioral considerations. Eventually, hunting guilds, medicinal or magical recipes, and the like should also give players a reason to seek out such rare creatures in inhospitable/difficult to reach environments.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 02, 2011, 09:30:52 pm
Well what the game could do I guess is make several base creatures and then allow itself to make slight alterations to the creature with an algorithm where the further away from the starting location it is (With sea distance applying double), the greater chance for a greater number of variations in the base creature. The naming theme would likely be either "Location" + Base and/or "Trait/Habitat" + Base if the varience is low enough. Though differences are slight, huge distances could bring on varience great enough to change entire aspects of a species.

Though that could be excessive.

As for food niches remember that you can seperate niches rather vastly. Birds for example have been known to seperate niches according to the area of the trees they use and nest in. So even times they are active during the day could be a niche.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 02, 2011, 11:27:02 pm
Neonivek: Some interesting ideas. I'm not sure if/when I'll delve into something as complicated as true evolutionary drift and whatnot; as awesome as it would be, and as much as I'd eventually like to implement that sort of thing, it can probably wait while I slap together a slightly more sane/comprehensible-to-code placeholder system that will do until gameplay is in place and I can start becoming more serious about insane amounts of depth.

Still working on creatures; it took me a while, but I got a lot of the behavioral stuff churned out, and I'm now going through the list of body parts and making sure they're all described properly. I suspect I'm going to have to be a bit preemptive and code scrolling text fields with scrollbars just for this, but I'm going to need them later anyway.

Sorry to say the creature descriptions themselves aren't looking much more interesting... yet. But with all the groundwork now in place, that should change pretty soon.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on April 03, 2011, 01:40:19 pm
That's pretty impressive for something put together by code.

But... Is that creature an insect?  I know about as much as a watermelon does about biology, so I'm not sure if mammals or reptiles can have "body segments".  I'm leaning towards no, but I think my initial image of the creature threw me off.  I was imagining some small, furry creature with green fur, and then I hit the body segments bit and my mind nearly fell out of my ear.

That's probably just me, though, so don't look too deeply into it.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 03, 2011, 01:47:48 pm
That is an (extremely) partial creature description. The reason you're confused is because about 95% of the description is not yet being implemented by the description generator, which is what I'm working on now. :) The description proper will include useful facts such as what kind of bodily covering the creature has, whether or not it is an invertebrate, whether it is warm or cold-blooded, its colors, etc.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on April 03, 2011, 02:00:17 pm
Sweet.  I look forward to it.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2011, 11:31:52 pm
Well the even lazier way to do it Lord Dullard I guess is to make a base creature and have them randomly generate offshoots... then just throw them in random locations. (refering to that shift thingy).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on April 04, 2011, 12:28:32 pm
Perhaps a mix of both would work - That way you'd have some standard "builds" (IE: Four legs, torso, head, fur) along with a few oddballs.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 04, 2011, 01:25:05 pm
At this point I'm just generating a set number of creatures and distributing them across the world. Evolutionary simulation isn't really a part of the picture for now.

Creating a smaller subset of base creatures and allowing them to morph over given distances sounds like a pretty interesting idea to keep in mind for the future, though. It doesn't sound like it'd be exceptionally hard to implement (I'll probably be eating my own words on that later, mind), but I'm not certain it's a hugely important goal to pursue until I have more time to devote to detail.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 05, 2011, 09:12:02 am
More progress:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When I get home from work today I'll add in the rest of the limbs/extremities and start working on color selection. After getting stat selection and modification done and writing the code for creature habitat selection and spread, I'll be on the home stretch.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: mendonca on April 05, 2011, 10:26:43 am
Holy moly that's a thing of beauty.

Minor nitpick though, 'not entirely nonbelligerent' is a bit unclear to me, i.e. shouldn't really be describing with double negatives.

But nevermind that, I still love it..
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 05, 2011, 03:57:15 pm
Thanks, mendonca. Yeah, there are still some elements of lingual weirdness I need to weed through before this is finished (or at least polished).

Arms.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ETA: Also just realized I need to finish adding the rest of the head-detail dictionaries. That (and limbs) should hopefully be finished in the next couple of hours. More screens to come soon.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on April 05, 2011, 04:30:10 pm
Just a thought, but some of those sentence constructions could be simplified so it reads much cleaner.

Ex:

"The Ali is [unimpressive] in physical stature; it weighs between [3 to 4 pounds]. It [doesn't trouble itself] with safeguarding territory."

Not using contractions does sound more clinical and erudite, but it makes for some torturous constructions, especially with the super mad libs thing you have here. So a hefty dose of editing for brevity would be good, in addition to isolating where double negatives are created.

Of course, not knowing all the terms you've included, maybe this is the construction you've found works best for all them.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 05, 2011, 06:25:55 pm
Thanks, nenjin; I'll work on simplifying sentences as best as I can manage while still retaining some amount of variability between descriptions.

Quite a few more facial features have been added, including mouths, noses, proboscises, trunks, teeth, and tongues. I think I need to fix the 'spurred' trait; for some reason I included it in the digits dictionary instead of in hands/feet. Not sure why, exactly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Legs and other appendages still need to be added. I'll try to get that finished tonight and post one more set of screenshots before bed. No ('actual') work tomorrow, so I may be able to get quite a bit more finished throughout the day.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Outcast Orange on April 11, 2011, 01:09:26 pm
These are coming out amazingly, sir.

Keep up all the good work.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 11, 2011, 01:31:10 pm
Yep, even if I don't post I am watching this intently. I am just waiting for the gameplay elements to emerge.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 12, 2011, 01:08:34 am
Time for a slight diversion from the norm!

This is the first of several vignettes I'll be writing as I develop the Cult meta-plot; of course, keeping in mind the fact that every world and every meta-plot will be procedurally generated to some extent, the names are just stand-ins.

These will go up on the Cult website fairly soon, once it's completely designed and the game and forums are ready for an initial launch.

Warning: Contains Spoilers. If you ever want to play the game WITHOUT knowing the meta-plot, you should avoid reading this.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

More code updates to come soon.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Levi on April 12, 2011, 01:21:16 pm
I'd love to hear sometime about how you generate all that content.  I've been wanting to write a 2d cave generator for a while now but I've got no clue where to start.  I've got no problem setting up all the support code and everything, but the actual generation bits seem pretty intimidating.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on April 12, 2011, 01:32:29 pm
[...] keeping in mind the fact that every world and every meta-plot will be procedurally generated to some extent, the names are just stand-ins. [...] If you ever want to play the game WITHOUT knowing the meta-plot, you should avoid reading this. [...]

I didn't read the spoiler, but does this mean every game would have a similar 'meta-plot'? And if so, does the plot serve to explain the gameplay or provide a suitable background for your character, or is it more of a plot like a fantasy story, in which king X betrays king Y to band with evil sorcerer Z, and you have nothing to do with it but can get involved? I hope I'm explaining this clearly.

Anyway, I think in the latter case, you could 'easily' make the plot procedurally generated as well. It would make the replay value infinitely bigger, and the possibilities for intrigue and dirty politics endless.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 12, 2011, 01:42:53 pm
Screenshots to come in a few moments after I ascertain that all of the code I've just written is relatively glitch-free. Creature content is just about 100% done (FINALLY!), aside from a few small bits and pieces that need to be added here and there.

Colors as well as all body parts are now generated, although I have to get a few last color descriptors in place for odd parts like claws, teeth, and so forth.

@ EagleV: No, every game won't have a similar meta-plot. 'Winning' the game will be possible by completing a number of different meta-plots that will be available to the player in every game. However, there will be an overarching possibility for a sort of ultimate-win-scenario that a player can choose to try to fulfill, but doing so will not be necessary by any means. Then again, even this ultimate-win will have conditional scenarios that will be randomly generated each time, so pursuing it will NOT be repetitive. And there will be a few catch-22s involved in actually pursuing it that will make it less of a 'win' and more of a 'possible set of scenarios that may or may not play out as the character/player wants or expects them to'.

Most of the plots in the game will be procedurally-generated and character-driven according to the circumstances of the player character's personality, circumstances of birth and life prior to game start, etc. Major world conflicts will also be plot motivators or serve as plots in and of themselves. Though all of this is a long way down the road, of course. But suffice it to say I do not plan to lock players into a pursuing a single goal. That doesn't mean I can't include a few overarching, vague goals that are always available to pursue, though.  ;D It shouldn't really become repetitive if the manner of pursuing them and the entities involved in the goals themselves are different each time and have different individual means of acting as plot catalysts.

ETA:

I should mention that by reading the short story above you won't really be spoiled to any of the numerous plots that Cult will devise through procedural generation; rather, you'll be spoiled to a specific character goal that will be available in every game. It could be considered a significant spoiler by some, but the majority of players will probably want to read it anyway because it helps to explain the overarching theme of the game and the interaction between gods.

It will also help to explain how Zeus and Cthulhu could theoretically exist within the same game.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Korbac on April 12, 2011, 02:08:44 pm
Bloody hell, that story was amazing Dullard. I kind of called Norshek on his bluff, though.  ;)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on April 12, 2011, 02:29:14 pm
Great story, and the answer I was hoping for  :) .
Thanks!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 12, 2011, 03:01:31 pm
Thank you all for your comments and input!

Okay, as promised, screenshots. To get something out of the way quickly and to make certain that I at least mention it, I want to note that swamps have been modified a bit. Swamps and plains are now also both named during the world naming process. I genned a quick example map, so here it is.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, on to mostly-complete creature description entries.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll make a mirror post on the devblog when I get home tonight with a few more screenshots and notes.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on April 12, 2011, 05:27:12 pm
Ddduuuuddddeee, it all reads and looks so clean! The creature descriptions really come together. Detail overkill for me, but still awesome procedural work.

Are you planning to quantify creature stats separate from the description? (Like a stats page that returns numerics.) Just curious, there's a lot of detail --> function to digest.

What's next for Cult then? Combat? God generation? It should totally be God gen :P You've got the obvious framework to start now.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 12, 2011, 06:23:24 pm
Oooh I'd love to suggestion bomb god generation!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 12, 2011, 08:59:33 pm
Ddduuuuddddeee, it all reads and looks so clean! The creature descriptions really come together. Detail overkill for me, but still awesome procedural work.

Are you planning to quantify creature stats separate from the description? (Like a stats page that returns numerics.) Just curious, there's a lot of detail --> function to digest.

What's next for Cult then? Combat? God generation? It should totally be God gen :P You've got the obvious framework to start now.

Yeah, it is a lot of detail. For in-game purposes I will probably include a more perfunctory version that the player can switch to that will offer a summary rather than an in-depth view.

As for stats, they are affected by most of these traits. Each trait has a percent-based modifier for one or several stats or derived stats. Once the whole creature is generated, all of these will be applied as a single %-modifier. The percentage of each trait's modifier is also changed if it receives an intensity modifier (i.e. extremely, somewhat, inexplicably, etc).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on April 13, 2011, 03:07:06 am
One little thing that still annoys me in the creature description: things like "Its jaw is wide and tiny" or "Enormous and narrow paws". Could you make words that cover the whole foot, instead of just one dimension, check if they really are applicable? An "Enormous and narrow paw" sounds weird (at least to me), a "Long but rather narrow paw" sounds much better. In other words, if you apply a modifier like 'enormous', do it by increasing all mentioned dimensions a bit, then checking if all mentioned adjectives are on the large side, and then you can add 'enormous' instead of, for instance, "long and wide". And if there is an adjective on the small side, add a 'but'. Eg. a creature with "long and wide" feet that should get the adjective 'enormous' becomes a creature with "very long and wide" or "enormous" feet, a creature with "long and thin" feet becomes a creature with "very long, but rather thin" feet.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 13, 2011, 07:03:33 pm
It would be rather complicated to implement simply because of the number of different traits involved and the engine having to be able to discern which ones should be 'buts' and 'ands' comparatively, but I'll see what I can do. It'll give me a chance to clean up the trait dictionaries a bit, anyhow.

But 'dimensions' has nothing in particular to do with traits. The limbs are not (physically) generated, so the game engine would have no way of knowing something is long and/or wide aside from selecting those two traits. As far as the engine is concerned, having 'long and wide' feet does not make them enormous. Having 'enormous' feet makes them enormous, and having 'long and wide' feet makes them 'long and wide'. They're just words with modifier values attached.  ;)

In other words, if I were to ever create a graphical representation of creatures generated by this engine, their appearance would be a derivative of their description, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 15, 2011, 09:20:31 am
Done.

(http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/cdesc.png)

Working on stats today. I'm hoping I can get those done and also start on creature spread code, which should largely be a copy-paste of civ spread code with a few added tweaks and considerations. After that it's on to the actual game engine. I'm excited.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on April 15, 2011, 09:37:20 am
Man, I feel so good for you. You got an awesome thing going on. I can't keep anything going at all.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mephansteras on April 15, 2011, 01:39:25 pm
Awesome work on the creatures.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on April 16, 2011, 03:10:06 am
I agree. Someone should give this man a pineapple.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2011, 03:17:37 am
I guess if there is anything your descriptions lacked it would be... hmm... description. (I am trying to be constructive, please feel free to throw away anything I am saying here)

If describes methodically exactly how the creature looks like if it was looked at by a robot or scientist.

Yet in a world where you may be looking at the creature with your own eyes the description would probably take on a different turn.

Possibly a descriptive description, ugh for SEVERE lack of a better word, would probably bring a lot of flavor especially for the "sum everything up" aspect.

I'd say the descriptions could differ if the character looking at them was "afraid" or "not so" but that would be a lot of work.

I mean if a creature is a monsterous beast forged from the souls of murdered children then I want to hear about how the earth cracks beneith its feet, how the air sucked through its nostrils is torchured through its wicked abrasive chest and all that. (Ugh, I can't describe things for beans)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: 3 on April 16, 2011, 03:35:14 am
My personal stance on the issue isn't that the problem lies in the descriptions being too mechanical; it's that they're in the wrong order. In the most recent example, the first thing I see is "it may or may not protect a territorial demense". Well, that's all very interesting but I don't know what it is that may be protecting a territorial demense (other than a name and the fact that it's "a creature"). Eventually there's mention of an approximate weight, which is good, but that doesn't excuse the fact that when I think of a wolf or turkey or whatnot size and weight are some of the last things that come to mind.

So, yeah, I'd be more comfortable with the "recognisable elements" being placed near the top of the listing. Of course, that might not work out just at this moment (the current categories are logical enough for while the game's under development).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on April 16, 2011, 03:39:09 am
I agree the descriptions should follow a hierarchy. Size, major features, minor features, behaviors.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2011, 03:47:36 am
Well if you want to be technical...

It would be Size then Face (though color would probably be between that). Though that is only because we are human.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2011, 04:04:59 am
I'll work with some of this tomorrow, thanks for the input. The first paragraph of descriptions right now is actually intentionally out-of-order as a result of me seeing if I could randomly shuffle the sentences and have them come out sensibly (obviously, I couldn't).

As for making descriptions less mechanical, I could probably do that, to some degree. I'm not sure if this is the right section of the game for it, though; I would prefer to write a separate type of look/glance function for generating descriptions based on the initial impressions that an adventurer encountering it would probably get. 'This creature is huge <followed by short description>. Its posture is distinctly aggressive and threatening. It is producing a low growl. It...'

Right now I'm way too tired to mess about with any code. Sleep. Code tomorrow. Cheers, folks.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2011, 03:34:46 pm
I've been irked today with Wordpress problems. I'm considering just going ahead and starting to throw a website together if only because it'll make things easier to organize; working with the very limited amount of functionality offered by free WP blogs is very irritating.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Acanthus117 on April 17, 2011, 02:41:06 am
Lord Dullard, I wish I could donate to you, man.

This shit looks awesome
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on April 18, 2011, 10:35:54 am
yay, word press.

I'm fine with the descriptions at the moment, since they seem like something you'd read out of a book.  Obviously the "glance" feature would be a character's first impression of most creatures (unless he did some heavy duty studying before hand), and then he'd go read more about the creature in the library if he wanted to.  Otherwise, the "glance" could sum up the character's knowledge of the creature from local lore and legend, and could expand as the character studies or encounters the creature more often.  Glances can also give differences between different creatures (Such as a particularly large or strong one) and current states (As you alluded to above).

"This is an incredibly large Apple Fritter, a food noted for its flat shape and small apple chunks.  It is renowned by locals as incredibly delicious when served with hot chocolate for breakfast.  It is currently resting quietly on a paper plate."
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 18, 2011, 12:59:41 pm
I've adjusted the hierarchy in creature descriptions to follow a more logical pattern. Basic creature stats/derived stats are now generated and modified by all existing morphological traits, although I haven't worked out exactly how I want to display them, yet. For that matter, I think the creature descriptions that are currently serving as placeholder front-pages for bestiary entries will probably be moved to a separate 'physical description' page, with the front page changing to something more akin to an all-around summary for the creature being viewed. It will most likely consist of some basic stats and prominent characteristics (whether physical or behavioral) for which the creature is known, its areas of occupation, mention of any important legends dealing with the creature, etc. The tabs for more specific areas will contain all of the additional information and also expound upon whatever info is found on the summary page.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The stats are for the same creature in the first screenshot. The derived stats are calculated using the formulas in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46922.msg1997495#msg1997495). Armor Class has a base number that is modified by traits; the base number itself is derived from the type of body covering a creature has. Skin and feathers give the lowest base AC, followed by fur, then scales, then an exoskeleton. AC is also modified by shells.

Obviously this isn't actually how I'm going to show a creature's stat sheet, but I haven't even begun to fiddle with how I want to set things up for that, and I'm struggling with a lack of inspiration at the moment. I think I may save it for when I have the rest of the code pertaining to creature spread fleshed out, which I can start on today.

Oh. Also visible in this screencap is an annoying grammatical error I need to pick out that deals with body cover and differentiating between the associated singular/plural nouns used (i.e. fur vs. scales). I'll fix that today, as well. Said bug is also responsible for the repetitious selection of skin traits.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 18, 2011, 02:25:47 pm
Taking a bit of an excursion into establishing subspheres/biomes to provide additional diversification during creature gen; I'll also need them to be established to complete creature descriptions and summaries. Sadly, I have to work today, which means I won't get as much done as I'd like. At some point this week I may be filming a video for Kickstarter. We'll see.

(Oh, I fixed the issue with cover types.)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Nistenf on April 24, 2011, 02:14:59 am
This looks amazing
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 24, 2011, 07:06:19 pm
I've taken the last few days to finish a couple of projects. The first was a rewrite of the language generator; I ditched everything I've done so far and went with a completely new algorithm (I was getting incredibly sick of the awful names being generated by my prior hackneyed attempt). Languages now require a list of names (of any length, though theoretically longer lists are better) upon which to determine a set of rules for letter selection, but the upside is that this will allow people to mod in their own language base files very easily. So far I've thrown together two for testing purposes and they're both doing beautifully; one for Gaelic and the other for Finnish. The language generator will also be capable of mixing and matching languages/rules by way of selecting multiple input files. Here are some examples of generated names:

Finnish-based:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gaelic-based:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The algorithm itself was actually FAR simpler to implement than anything I've tried up until now. I think I'd like to compile twenty-five to thirty name lists; I'll probably use everything from real languages to various fantasy sources to produce a good variety to start players off with. Since the names are easy to generate, a bit down the road methinks I'm going to implement a separate function for actually creating suffix and prefix lists and then developing different dictionaries based on them for every in-game language. I know very few players are actually going to bother to get way in-depth with the procedurally generated faux-languages in their worlds, BUT the added depth will be a bonus, and if implemented correctly it will give smart players clues about things that their character would be able to recognize ('Hey, I've seen that word before, it means 'danger' in such-and-such language, right?').

The other project I've been involved in has been the shooting of a Kickstarter video. That's not completely finished yet, and I've still got some more work to do, but it's close.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on April 24, 2011, 07:54:05 pm
Hey, after the language generator what are you going to do next?

Also, I am so happy you did Gaelic. Irish person here.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Levi on April 24, 2011, 08:09:58 pm
Heh, it almost generated my real name.  That is a good sign that its working.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 25, 2011, 05:42:08 am
Old English names... in!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@Fniff: Finish fleshing out creatures, then begin work on the interactive game engine.

ETA: Updated the dev blog.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mithras on April 25, 2011, 07:38:46 am
Name generator? Yay.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 25, 2011, 07:44:04 am
A generic dwarven base name set is also now compiled and in. Some examples of names generated by it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Acanthus117 on April 25, 2011, 08:04:47 pm
This looks mighty awesome, milord.

Wish I could donate, but I'm as broke as can be.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 06, 2011, 10:04:06 am
I've been pumping at least 1-2 hours into code a day, as work and life spares me. The start of creature dispersal is now working correctly. In addition, I've fixed several annoying bugs and added glaciers to world generation (I did this as part of setting up all possible creature biomes; I realized glaciers were missing from arctic biome types, so I added them in).

I need to flesh out morphological generation for non-terrestrial creatures. It'll take me a bit.

I'm posting two screenshots (one of the updated worldgen with the new name generator (this one generated with the pseudo-Finnish language set) and one of the early creature dispersal process).

I'll be working on things a bit more today.

Worldgen with glaciers:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Creature dispersal:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Hugehead on May 06, 2011, 10:11:10 am
We understand, hatching an egg and getting ready to move.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: x2yzh9 on May 07, 2011, 05:13:16 pm
Where's a download? I love to just generate worlds in this program.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on May 07, 2011, 05:30:47 pm
Quote from: The blog's download page
This is a placeholder page. An updated alpha version of the Cult engine should be available soon (posted 1-17-2011).
Might want to rectify that as soon as you release 0.16.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 07, 2011, 05:46:24 pm
I probably won't be making a downloadable release until creature generation is finished and (possibly) I've started on the game engine. But I suppose that will largely depend on how quickly I can get something playable and interesting thrown together.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on May 07, 2011, 09:14:52 pm
Hey, spirits, do you have anything going on with them?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 12, 2011, 02:58:44 pm
Spirits are just a placeholder now until creatures are done and work has begun on the game engine.

Okay, folks. I need advice. How's this for a Kickstarter video? I can still edit it at this point, so input is more than welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qskU6XIY-3Y

Michelle tells me that she absolutely hates the black/white transition between world map images, so I may end up changing that depending on whether everyone else directs hate at it as well.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on May 12, 2011, 03:20:52 pm
First thought: You may want to alter the audio on your kickstarter video to remove the background noise.

Especially since it actually make any scene where your speaking outside much more difficult to hear you. It also makes the video feel cheap when you hear excessive outdoors noises.

Well it is sad that this is probably one of the last times we will be seeing eachother until the kickstarter time limit is over. I wish you luck Lord Dullard.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on May 12, 2011, 03:23:12 pm
And yeah, change the transitions.

And did you just say first-person? Isn't the game going to be bird-view roguelike style? ???
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on May 12, 2011, 03:23:32 pm
That is an interesting video. I don't mind the black/white transitions, but I can see how some may find them annoying, it's simply too big a contrast in only a few frames, you might try something a bit more fade-y with softer colors.

One (serious) issue in my opinion is the sound of your voice. It's completely different depending on where you shot the movie, and not great quality (especially the outside parts). That's obviously a hardware problem - I don't expect you to spend a load of money on a video camera - but you could, for instance, record the voice that explains the game outside, and paste that audio on the ingame images, that would at least keep the voice on the same level during the whole video.

As for the interference, programs like audacity have an interference filter, though I have no idea how well it works. I'm going to fiddle with it for a while now, I'll let you know if it's an improvement.

E: Nope, doesn't work well. At all. I guess you'll have to find another way to get a little better audio.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 12, 2011, 03:48:36 pm
Hmm... Thanks for comments. Posting on mobile so I have to be quick. Clearly the audio needs some kind of fix. As for first-person, I was referring to character rather than visual perspective, but I can see where it would be confusing.

That said, is the video awful to the point where I should just scrap it and start over?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on May 12, 2011, 03:51:00 pm
Hmm... Thanks for comments. Posting on mobile so I have to be quick. Clearly the audio needs some kind of fix. As for first-person, I was referring to character rather than visual perspective, but I can see where it would be confusing.

That said, is the video awful to the point where I should just scrap it and start over?

I don't know of the quality kickstarter asks for.

Certainly some scenes need to be framed better but I am not sure if that much effort is needed.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Frajic on May 12, 2011, 03:58:33 pm
I don't know about scrapping it, but I agree that the video should have the quality upped a notch or two.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Enzo on May 12, 2011, 04:00:54 pm
I'd agree with most of what's been said. The fade to black-and-white looks worse than a straight fade from image to image would, the sound-quality shifts are distracting, and the first-person comment through me off. Also, the way the line "...allow the player to suspend disbelief in the same way that a great fantasy novel allows the reader to suspend disbelief" is spoken sounds kind of awkward or redundant. To me, anyway.

That's mostly just nitpickles though, overall it's pretty respectable-looking.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Dwarf on May 12, 2011, 04:21:24 pm
And yeah, change the transitions.

And did you just say first-person? Isn't the game going to be bird-view roguelike style? ???

The visuals aren't, but the gameplay is first person, i.e., you are controlling yourself, so to speak.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 12, 2011, 10:14:54 pm
Maybe I'll just scrap this version and reshoot, then. It would have been awesome to be able to devote a solid six months or so to coding this and getting something playable and enjoyable out, but perhaps it just isn't the right time.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on May 12, 2011, 11:05:20 pm
Maybe I'll just scrap this version and reshoot, then. It would have been awesome to be able to devote a solid six months or so to coding this and getting something playable and enjoyable out, but perhaps it just isn't the right time.

It was a nice first attempt and by all means it was passable just not high grade material.

If you would like I could give you an in depth analysis with a play by play critique.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 13, 2011, 06:35:33 am
Thanks, feel free to PM it to me. I think a lot of the problems stem from the quality of the recording equipment, but that can be solved just by getting a better camera and a lapel mic or something to record with. That, and/or I think next time I won't try to mess around with nice-looking outdoor scenes and instead just keep it all indoors for a more controllable environment.

At any rate, I will probably be absent for the next 1-2 weeks or so due to moving.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Willfor on May 13, 2011, 08:54:09 am
As an audio engineer in training, I would recommend recording your audio separate from your video, and to rent a clean-sounding boom mic if at all possible. It will take a little more work, and more than one friend to operate the equipment, but it's going to pay off in the long run quality-wise.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 13, 2011, 02:51:03 pm
Willfor- thanks, but the quality probably doesn't need to be THAT good for this sort of thing (most other Kickstarter videos seem to be recorded with webcams or Flip UltraHD-type cameras and such). As long as it's presentable I don't think it needs to be cinema-quality or anything like that; the point is just to get the message across to the audience, not wow them with filming skills.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 13, 2011, 10:10:03 pm
Well, I am leaning rather heavily towards two possible courses of action at this point:

1. Adjust the video to make it as decent as possible, because... what the heck, the worst that can happen is failure, and it's just supposed to relay a message. Or

2. Say 'screw it all' and just develop very slowly at my own pace without worrying about this for the forseeable future, and swear off the whole thing other than as a private hobby until it's playable.

Rather inclined to go with 2, but I'll do some thinking over the next couple of weeks while I'm moving.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Knight of Fools on May 16, 2011, 01:16:03 pm
Do what you think is best for you.

If you were to continue down the road of announcing it, though, I'd recommend not making concrete statements until you actually get to a certain point.  The donation and recognition process, for example, may be completely different further down the road than how you see it now, and some people might find issue with that.  Just focus on how the game plays and how it's supposed to be awesome, because that's what most people are going to be interested in (For now).  Make more of a Tech demo, explain the future features and such.

And smile a little, man! :D
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Singularity-SRX on May 17, 2011, 12:10:24 am
Great job so far, and I had a suggestion.
As you can worship the gods, why not have the ability to go TO the gods.
It's basically a second generated world, but, with different regions, or dominions, which house the gods.

This place can only be reached through some incredibly hard manner, and/or put your body in the real world through incredible amounts of stress.

Going to the gods, and, say, killing one and taking it's place, means you get lots more followers, or some good loot or something.
You could also piss off other cults by doing so.

Just an idea, and unless this has been completely ruled out, then just disregard this ^^

Good luck!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 17, 2011, 10:44:43 pm
Singularity - excellent suggestion! I will definitely keep that in mind as a real possibility. :)

Just to make a quick update for everyone, I am successfully back in Michigan and searching for an apartment. Haven't picked one so far, but it shouldn't take *too* long. I also have access to my desktop again, which is a blessing (and cuts worldgen testing time in half or less).
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Acanthus117 on May 17, 2011, 11:24:58 pm
I am having a massive nerd boner whenever you update, LD.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on May 18, 2011, 01:24:47 am
I am having a massive nerd boner whenever you update, LD.

I wouldn't call it that, but nevertheless, same here.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on May 18, 2011, 01:59:31 am
I am having a massive nerd boner whenever you update, LD.

I wouldn't call it that, but nevertheless, same here.

Would you call it, getting engourged on his genius?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: moghopper on May 18, 2011, 10:58:05 am
I have to ask, will you be able to raise armies and send them into religious crusades? And if so:

1: Will you god have an influence on what kind of troops you get?

2: Will you have any input into how they are equipped?

3: Can you bolster your forces with demons and the like?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: mr. macduggan on July 01, 2011, 08:09:16 pm
Oh my god. I come in here 5 months and 15 pages later, and it's gotten SO MUCH BETTER. Keep up the good work, LD!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 01, 2011, 10:58:18 pm
Thanks! I am on a self-imposed coding hiatus at the moment, although I'll pick things back up fairly soon (I'm getting sick of the activities I've been using to distract myself in the meantime). The break was definitely needed, though. It's not the first time in the project's lifespan that I've had to step away for a bit of a sanity check, though, and there's no way I'll leave development alone permanently.

@moghopper: Yes, you will. To answer your other three questions:

1. Yes, although probably not in quite the way you're thinking. I want each game to have 'classes' procedurally generated in the same way that everything else is. What I mean by this is that just because civilization A and civilization B both worship the same god does not mean that they will have the same troop classes. Rather, their troops/troop trees will probably share some aesthetic values, skill specializations, and moral inclinations based upon the kinds of skills their god tends to nurture, but the race/nationality should also have a major impact. And that only covers professional troops. When you're recruiting for a religion, there are no limits on the types of people you can throw together into some kind of motley crew of destruction or peace or... whatever.

2. You'll have complete control over what your own troops use, although to save the sanity of everyone who doesn't like intense micromanagement, they'll probably start with default sets/preferences.

3. 'Demons and the like' will definitely be in the game, and are currently a placeholder under the 'Spirit Gen' bit of worldgen that takes place after Creature Gen. I haven't decided exactly what role they'll fulfill yet, but I want them to be pretty varied - ranging from minor/annoying sprites and nuisances to demi-gods capable of ascending to godhood in their own right. Tolkien's Maia would probably be a pretty good comparison.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2011, 11:23:15 pm
*Wipes forehead*

I was worried this was cancelled for a bit there.

Like most creative projects.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on July 01, 2011, 11:32:16 pm
I think that spirits should be occasionally helpful if you meet the right conditions. It'd always be a gamble, but it could really work out.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2011, 11:38:58 pm
Sanity checks are definitely a good thing.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on July 12, 2011, 08:47:28 am
Just a quick update. I've been doing some menial coding to get back into the swing of things; you can now sort the bestiary in the World Atlas according to several categories (creature size, biome, sphere, nation, region).

Having pretty much finished that off, I think I'll try to attack creature spread code again. I may or may not make much progress this week, since I'm working doubles almost every day and have been extremely sleep-deprived more often than not.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on July 12, 2011, 03:11:24 pm
Still watching this Dullard.

Don't work too hard, remember that you come first.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Scintillescent on July 13, 2011, 09:11:00 am
Just noticed this project and I hope it goes well, Lord Dullard :D!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Aklyon on July 17, 2011, 12:24:53 pm
This looks neat.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Svarte Troner on July 28, 2011, 10:03:56 pm
This is one of the most promising projects i've seen since dwarf fortress. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 08, 2011, 08:18:59 am
Thanks for all the positive feedback. Always encouraging to hear. :)

Today I finished the skeletal version of the creature spread code. Since it's functional as-is, I now just have to adjust it to take into account how often creatures reproduce and how long their gestation/incubation period is, the size of their litter/clutch, how long the creatures live and how long they're considered reproductively viable, predation in the area, food sources... and so forth.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on September 08, 2011, 08:34:10 am
I feared this was dead, it's great news that you're still working on this - and making serious progress. What's the next thing after creature spreading?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 08, 2011, 08:41:57 am
Actual gameplay and world exploration. Ideally I'd like to integrate creature development with national/historical development so that various creatures (as individuals and entire species) would be wrapped up in legends, national symbols/icons, religious symbolism, and in-game conversation. However, I think all of that is going to require my working on more areas of the game first, and I don't want to delay world exploration any longer.

I figure at the very least the player will be able to wander around a procedurally generated (and hopefully interesting to look at) world, interact with procedurally generated/unique creatures (even if they're not completely fleshed out yet), and do some basic things like building, harvesting resources and planting crops, recruiting followers (not that cities are in place yet, but I may add sentient wanderers/adventurers just to test out recruiting), and actually generating the PC itself, of course. Mostly I want to get to work on some of the stuff that will give potential players something to do, along with incentive to give feedback and become part of the creative process.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: freeformschooler on September 08, 2011, 08:58:53 am
I figure at the very least the player will be able to wander around a procedurally generated (and hopefully interesting to look at) world, interact with procedurally generated/unique creatures (even if they're not completely fleshed out yet), and do some basic things like building, harvesting resources and planting crops, recruiting followers (not that cities are in place yet, but I may add sentient wanderers/adventurers just to test out recruiting), and actually generating the PC itself, of course. Mostly I want to get to work on some of the stuff that will give potential players something to do, along with incentive to give feedback and become part of the creative process.

Oh, awesome. When you say generating the PC, what does that actually entail?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 08, 2011, 09:30:49 am
Player character generation - stats, skills, abilities, and so forth. I want to at least get the framework in place, though many abilities (especially magically-related ones) will have to wait until I'm able to work on other areas of the game to be implemented.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Mephansteras on September 08, 2011, 12:04:03 pm
Cool. I'm interested in playtesting this a bit once you get PCs in.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 08, 2011, 10:28:55 pm
do you plan to implement some kind of survival requirements like eating and drinking? both as acquirable goods and natural resources? cuz i'm looking forward to explore some roguelike wilderness ray mears style
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 09, 2011, 01:54:05 pm
Yes, though I don't know what the timeline for this sort of thing is, yet. I'll have a better idea of when I'll plan on implementing features once the main engine is complete. Lots of things to code and test (and test, and test, and test) before then.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on September 09, 2011, 03:52:20 pm
If you want to 'outsource' any of the testing, I'm interested.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Fniff on September 09, 2011, 05:10:26 pm
I am also interested in testing.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: NRDL on September 15, 2011, 07:13:32 am
Posting to watch, it looks REALLY awesome.  Also, any updates? 
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 27, 2011, 06:44:57 am
Quick update for today (first day off I've had in a while, though I'm currently sick): implemented subcell resolution for the scaled world maps during worldgen. I'll probably also implement this in a number of other areas for the sake of visual pleasantness and consistency.

Here's a sample.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: micelus on September 27, 2011, 06:56:35 am
....I didn't even know this game had graphics. Makes it so much better.

Great work mi'lord Dullard.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 27, 2011, 07:12:12 am
it doesn't really. that's just the map, the game will be in ascii, how else could you depict the randomly generated creatures?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: micelus on September 27, 2011, 07:15:51 am
Ah...Makes much more sense. Still great.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 27, 2011, 09:33:16 am
Yep - no true graphics. Though there will be imaginative use of subcell resolution and libTCOD's awesome ASCII capabilities to make a much more 'graphical' text game than ASCII roguelikes typically employ.

Subcell resolution also allows me to play around with fun stuff like this, of course:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 27, 2011, 09:37:30 am
hm, maybe not for early releases, but you could work something out to generate simple images for portraits of the creatures for an in-game (pokedex-like) encyclopedia
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 27, 2011, 09:39:28 am
hm, maybe not for early releases, but you could work something out to generate simple images for portraits of the creatures for an in-game (pokedex-like) encyclopedia

That's an interesting thought. It would most likely be doable by layering separate images on top of one another, although I don't possess the artistic ability to pull it off well.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 27, 2011, 09:42:31 am
i've got a few skills up my sleeve if you need any help with that, though i'm sure you could get somebody more capable.

Yes, though I don't know what the timeline for this sort of thing is, yet. I'll have a better idea of when I'll plan on implementing features once the main engine is complete. Lots of things to code and test (and test, and test, and test) before then.
i know it's a bit of a late reply, but this got me really pumped up. i hope it'll be at least as in depth as UrW
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Neonivek on September 27, 2011, 10:21:13 am
it doesn't really. that's just the map, the game will be in ascii, how else could you depict the randomly generated creatures?

It IS possible if you use layers.

It would just take a rather talented person to make it flourish.

Though I still hope there will be tile support.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 27, 2011, 10:35:28 am
i did suggest this afterwards
hm, maybe not for early releases, but you could work something out to generate simple images for portraits of the creatures for an in-game (pokedex-like) encyclopedia
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Antsan on September 27, 2011, 11:14:59 am
Yep - no true graphics. Though there will be imaginative use of subcell resolution and libTCOD's awesome ASCII capabilities to make a much more 'graphical' text game than ASCII roguelikes typically employ.

Subcell resolution also allows me to play around with fun stuff like this, of course:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Whoa! That's awesome! Reminds me of the old DSA Trilogy (Wikipedia says internationally it was called "Realms of Arkania").
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 28, 2011, 07:55:28 am
Quite happy with how nation-relationships maps are coming out with the subcell rendering, now, as well:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Looks worlds better than the old version:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: NRDL on September 28, 2011, 08:51:21 am
So...that's the relations between the various civs?  Most of them seemed pretty amiable. 
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on September 28, 2011, 09:05:20 am
So...that's the relations between the various civs?  Most of them seemed pretty amiable.

History generation is still pretty rudimentary. Skirmishes, wars, raids, various violations of treaties and trade agreements don't yet take place. Once they do relations will probably tend to be neutral-to-hostile in most parts of the world for all but the most peaceable of nations.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Svarte Troner on September 28, 2011, 04:03:01 pm
I'm actually pretty excited about this, there's something about religious warfare that tickles my fancy. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Minstrel on October 02, 2011, 04:17:10 am
Wow, this is a really interesing project. Can't wait for the playable alpha. I will make sure some of my gold finds a way into your pocket come my next paycheck.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 09:23:08 am
Thanks for the encouraging words, everyone. :) I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on creature code today, schedule allowing. I'm also extremely excited because it looks like Cult may have its own custom-made soundtrack in the near future.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: mr. macduggan on October 02, 2011, 09:29:17 am
Yeah, that guy making the music is really good. I'm excited to see what he comes up with.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Pillow_Killer on October 02, 2011, 09:55:51 am
Is there any chance of a new worldgen demo anytime soon?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 12:00:52 pm
Yep. I am actually working on throwing together another tech demo as we speak write. I just want to toss together a few cosmetic fixes for appearance's sake.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 01:15:18 pm
Welp, unfortunately I'm having immense difficulty compiling the project into an .exe. Py2exe just doesn't seem to be up to the task.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: freeformschooler on October 02, 2011, 01:19:43 pm
Well, you can just, you know, leave it as Python and tell people to get Python. I certainly don't mind.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: nenjin on October 02, 2011, 01:25:18 pm
Considering it's just a world-gen demo, I wouldn't worry about it. I think a release .exe would have to be figured out at some point though.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 01:50:11 pm
I fixed it.  :) I have work at 5 PM today, but I think I can manage to throw up a new tech demo with a list of features before then.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: EagleV on October 02, 2011, 03:04:14 pm
Yay!

5 PM in what time zone?
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 03:08:26 pm
EST. I'm uploading the .RAR right now.
Title: Re: Cult - Updated First Post (02/05/11)
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 03:09:46 pm
Okay --- here it is! This is the v0.2 alpha tech demo of Cult.  :D

There are quite a lot of new things to play around with, most of them contained in the world generation process. I've made a list below:

New features:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The worldgen process is relatively quick for me, but I'm on a quad-core computer with a gig of dedicated graphics running at ~4ghz/core. It's probably going to take quite a lot longer on older computers. My laptop, which has a 9800GT and two cores running at something like 2.2ghz/core, doesn't take a horrendous amount of time, so it shouldn't be *too* bad if your rig isn't ancient.

To access creature entries and nation information about worlds you generate, you have to go to the World Atlas.

That about does it. Enjoy!

(Oh, and I highly encourage people to post pictures of amusing/freakish creatures or names generated by the program just for fun, if anybody is so inclined.)

Credits:
The excellent music is by Sentientdeth here on the B12 forums.

A NOTE: After history generation finishes, there will be a noticeable pause while the program saves the generated world to a file. Clicking around and spazzing out is not advised here, as it'll probably make the game crash. Wait until it finishes saving and a message will be displayed indicating that you can proceed to the main menu.

LINKY, LINKY: http://www.mediafire.com/?h6cgh261tbumao6
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 02, 2011, 03:13:45 pm
NICE! NICE NICE NICE!!!.
if i ever make a d&d campaign using your generator tool to create interesting political or similar situations...i'll ask first. >.>
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: freeformschooler on October 02, 2011, 03:18:31 pm
Is there any way to lower the resolution? I may have asked before but I forget the answer. I'm running 1333x768 and that's STILL too small. Anyway, thanks for the tech demo!

E: To clarify, Game Settings might have the answer but it's giving me a black screen.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 03:20:47 pm
Unfortunately for the moment, not really. Lowering it would break all kinds of stuff. I'll make sure I include an init file that allows more compatibility with different resolutions once I start making real releases.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: freeformschooler on October 02, 2011, 03:22:11 pm
Hmm... rats. So what kind of resolution would I have to be running to see this thing?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 03:23:31 pm
It currently runs at 1200x800. I could pretty easily adjust this if need be. At the moment I don't have the time, because I need to get ready for work immediately, but I'll see what I can do for you as soon as I get out tonight. Sorry for the trouble!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 02, 2011, 03:26:30 pm
It currently runs at 1200x800. I could pretty easily adjust this if need be. At the moment I don't have the time, because I need to get ready for work immediately, but I'll see what I can do for you as soon as I get out tonight. Sorry for the trouble!

nice, genned the first world.
after that, what is "the next step" ? (or how to read the history generated? )

edit: nevermind, found.
also: bugtracker note: if you press enter in the atlas menu, it goes back to number one, instead of foregoing forward in submenus. intended? (running windows 7 64 bits)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 02, 2011, 03:34:41 pm
Nope, that's not intended behavior, thanks for reporting. I'll fix it when I get home tonight. There will likely be a variety of other bugs to discover, since a lot of this is fairly new code and I've been the only one tinkering around with it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 02, 2011, 03:39:34 pm
Nope, that's not intended behavior, thanks for reporting. I'll fix it when I get home tonight. There will likely be a variety of other bugs to discover, since a lot of this is fairly new code and I've been the only one tinkering around with it.

if you ever need a bug tester, just count me in. i know nothing of coding, so i'm the perfect tester! XD.
that said, the only options one can do are, right now, "generate world" and world atlas, right?
then in world atlas one can: look at nations&relations of nations
and go into beastiary, and one at the time look at the beasts (sorting doesn't work, it hanged the game)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Simple on October 02, 2011, 03:43:45 pm
Woah, awesome job! Most impressive world-gen i seen for a long time.

First bizarre creature:Colossal Centipedes (http://i.imgur.com/pmjck.png) ? Brr!
Other Notes:
- Does Holy <something> Empire civ name is very common or that's just my luck ?
- By region sorting seems to do nothing and not allows to go back.

EDIT: Also trying to show only aerial creatures results in :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Nevermind just read the release notes
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Minstrel on October 02, 2011, 03:44:59 pm
How fast are creatures supposed to gen? Because world and names took literally moments.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: EagleV on October 02, 2011, 03:49:56 pm
Looks great so far! A few CTD's, but I guess that's to be expected from quickly-before-work-compiled beta code. Most of the creatures had a very rectangular biome, I don't know if that's placeholder code or a supposed to be that way, but it strikes me as odd. And there should be a way for nations to expand over sea, at a higher 'cost' than over land, and of course without claiming the sea itself. I had a huge nation with an uninhabited island just a few blocks away.
But, again, it's great so far, keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Servant Corps on October 02, 2011, 04:34:33 pm
How do you export maps to a picture format, so that I can use this program as campaign inspiration?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Simple on October 02, 2011, 04:44:12 pm
Last map genned is automatically exported to /image/gfx

Just genned : Nylon Isles and Rohan civ (i have to check if they have horse-like creatures there :P)

One thing i noticed about name generator - islands that get connected with the mainland are still named as if they were detached.(it looks bit strange when that peninsula is nearly the size of the continent)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: freeformschooler on October 02, 2011, 05:24:44 pm
Well, regardless of the resolution issue, this is still a wicked cool demo. I gen'd a civ and love how it outlines little houses and stuff in the WIP civilization overview, and also love the creature combat stats.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Ninteen45 on October 02, 2011, 07:35:39 pm
Resolution is bigger than my monitor. Physically. I measured it with a ruler and everything.

Edit, worldgen is good, if generic with geography and territories
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Ironhand on October 02, 2011, 08:27:32 pm
This looks awesome! I can't wait to see more!

Is there a reason that the mountains are so dark?
IMO, It's kind of hard on the eyes and breaks up the landscape too much.
You might try a light grey or tannish brown for mountains. Just a suggestion.
(In general, if your oceans are dark you usually want your landmasses to be light, and vice versa.
That way it's immediately apparent from a distance which blots are land and which ones are water.)


That's just a minor nit-pick, though. Over all, it looks fabulous!

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 03, 2011, 06:04:53 am
Made some progress on the soundtrack; hopefully we can get the music files updated for you guys.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 03, 2011, 06:28:16 am
Whew - lots of replies to go through this morning!

I'm suffering from a nasty cold, and I really need coffee. Once I get my head on straight I'll try to answer any questions/concerns/etc.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 03, 2011, 07:30:10 am
Okay...

1. As for layered creature images, with subcell rendering available, it now seems like a more obtainable goal. For now I'm not worried about working on it, but in the future...

2. Resolution - I'm going to work on tossing together a proper 'Game Settings' section for settings like these, along with various worldgen tweaks (water/land ratio, etc etc). Because of my work schedule and life in general I'm not going to project a definite time frame to have this done, but it shouldn't take *that* long.

3. Repetitive civ names - Civ/history generation is currently in its infancy. I had to put it on hold because I need to tie in a lot of information from as-of-yet-unfinished segments of worldgen (Creatures, Gods, etc) before being able to proceed - this is because civs will have their various symbols/icons, legends, histories, and whatnot all tied in with other worldgen elements. Some civs might be founded directly at the whim of the gods (either by raising a previously non-sentient race to sentience, or by providing some kind of technology a la Sid Meier's Civilization, or whatever). Civ-gen/history will also need Creatures and Spirits to be finished because they will all depend heavily on being able to tie elements from each in to their legends and culture for thematic purposes.

4. Yeah, civs should spread over water. I'll work on that. Shouldn't be too hard.

5. Peninsulas getting named like islands - this might be really hard to fix. It shouldn't have too much bearing on things in the long run, although I'll look into correcting it. But the island-finding/lake-finding algorithms work this way in order to avoid slowing even high-powered computers to a crawl - they basically work on a 'almost always correct... most of the time' logic. The result is an occasional oddity or misnamed feature.

6. Dark mountains - I could try tweaking these. I personally prefer the color the way it is, though. But now that I think of it, I might just have to allow users to tweak world color schemes to their own liking via the Game Settings tab. Anybody else think mountains should be lighter?

7. The finished worldgen soundtrack rocks. I'll include it in the next tech demo along with the other changes. Thanks, Sentientdeth!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Neonivek on October 03, 2011, 08:58:41 am
Still following Lord Dullard, I have to admit you REALLY havn't let your game fall into the "just ASCII it" trap a lot of other roguelikes have fallen into.

It actually looks beautiful and I don't have to use much imagination to understand what I am looking at. It is a lovely game so far.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: NRDL on October 03, 2011, 08:59:48 am
So, Lord Dullard, what are you working on now, exactly?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 03, 2011, 09:17:23 am
Too many hours at my job and recovering from a cold. No, but seriously...

I haven't been able to devote a lot of time lately to the really meaty parts of the code due to time constraints, so most changes have been cosmetic or interface-oriented. I'm currently about halfway through creature spread code, which is where I plan on picking up again (hopefully this Thurs. And Fri., since I have two days off for once). Right now it's very rudimentary - thus the 'box-shaped' habitat ranges currently produced during the spread phase.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on October 03, 2011, 10:28:29 am
Still following Lord Dullard, I have to admit you REALLY havn't let your game fall into the "just ASCII it" trap a lot of other roguelikes have fallen into.

It actually looks beautiful and I don't have to use much imagination to understand what I am looking at. It is a lovely game so far.
yeah, there are many ways to approach ascii, and well done ascii can look as good as a pretty good tileset, and much better than the average tileset of most roguelikes. ascii shouldn't be treated as an easy cop out of doing graphics, but as a graphical choice in itself, and should be thought out with as much aesthetic concerns as a tileset.
i think dullard got it just right with the few bits he's shown us, but we're yet to see the proper game. i'm confident i'll be satisfied, though
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on October 03, 2011, 12:49:10 pm
No worries LD. I'm starting down the path of coding too and I can appreciate there are times you simply don't have the mental reserves left to tackle the unknown parts of the program.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Little on October 04, 2011, 12:48:12 pm
This is really cool, it'll be awesome in the future!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: lishain on October 05, 2011, 02:16:57 am
Great!Cant wait to see more. Sadly, tech-demo crashes during name generation,but otherwise is fantastic.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 05, 2011, 05:41:06 am
lishain - sorry to hear that. What error message are you receiving? It's pretty odd that the program is crashing during name generation, since that part has been relatively stable for me (so far, at least).

Quick update: civs now spread over water. It takes much longer for them to spread this way than over land, but after enough turns they're able to populate islands and other continents, as below:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: lishain on October 05, 2011, 05:50:38 am
Well it just crashed to the destkop.But after I reastarted computer everything worked fine.Managed to generate some worlds.So I think it was probably something with my computer.Can't wait to see future updates.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: NRDL on October 05, 2011, 05:51:22 am
I'm wondering how these civs manage to survive on salt water, let alone build communities on the ocean. 
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 05, 2011, 05:59:10 am
I'm not sure what you mean. That map is laced with rivers and several freshwater lakes, and some of the smaller islands even have rivers of their own. Small islands will still have a probability of at least containing a little stream or two, even if they're too small to show up on the map as rivers.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: NRDL on October 05, 2011, 06:01:15 am
Sorry, I thought that was just one, big, ocean. 
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 05, 2011, 07:45:43 am
Toying around with more light-colored mountains. I think I like it, but I'm not quite sure yet:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Mephansteras on October 05, 2011, 12:13:56 pm
Looks good to me!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2011, 12:15:45 pm
I think the blended faces of the mountain might look a wee bit muddled.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Neonivek on October 05, 2011, 08:27:35 pm
Not to mention who says that all these creatures rely on water from rivers and lakes to survive?

Ponds work just as well sometimes.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Blargityblarg on October 06, 2011, 07:04:10 am
I'm liking the lighter mountains much more than the dark.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Oscuro1987 on October 07, 2011, 11:14:39 am
Omg I am SO watching this!  :D
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 07, 2011, 12:31:27 pm
Experimenting with tiled water/mountains:

Warning: Very Large Image (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tiled.png)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on October 07, 2011, 12:47:20 pm
this  (http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_obliterating_grid.php)is an interesting simple tutorial you might find interesting
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 07, 2011, 01:50:06 pm
Experimenting with tiled water/mountains:

Warning: Very Large Image (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tiled.png)

NICE! it seems like there is the "shadow" effect, maybe, further down the road, it can be Hu-ed to make it look like the sun is circling around it. >.>
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 07, 2011, 02:15:43 pm
this  (http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_obliterating_grid.php)is an interesting simple tutorial you might find interesting

Thanks. I actually edited the font/tile that way on purpose, to try and create the effect of 'waves' in the water, but I probably failed miserably. I'll try a more generic-looking/even tile next to see if that's any better.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on October 07, 2011, 02:16:38 pm
That looks very smexy. I love the shallow water tile gradient into deep. I'm going to stoke your ego a bit and say that's like small scale DF levels of natural beauty.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 09, 2011, 11:29:55 am
Warning: Large Image (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tiled2.png)

More experimentation with 'tiled' fonts. In this one the grass, desert, mountains, and water all have texture. Trying to decide whether I like it or if I should just go back to solid colors. I do like that it blends the edges of deserts into grass more evenly. Oh, and I edited the water tile to be (hopefully) less annoying.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 09, 2011, 11:50:28 am
Warning: Large Image (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tiled2.png)

More experimentation with 'tiled' fonts. In this one the grass, desert, mountains, and water all have texture. Trying to decide whether I like it or if I should just go back to solid colors. I do like that it blends the edges of deserts into grass more evenly. Oh, and I edited the water tile to be (hopefully) less annoying.

nice!
>.> the blending in is a nice addition.
and it could also be used programming side, right? like, to stop civilizations based on farmland to go on and civilize the desert. when there is a "blending" tile with desertic zone go "alt" . >.> (or similar dunno how you coded it)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 09, 2011, 11:56:04 am
Warning: Large Image (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tiled2.png)

More experimentation with 'tiled' fonts. In this one the grass, desert, mountains, and water all have texture. Trying to decide whether I like it or if I should just go back to solid colors. I do like that it blends the edges of deserts into grass more evenly. Oh, and I edited the water tile to be (hopefully) less annoying.

nice!
>.> the blending in is a nice addition.
and it could also be used programming side, right? like, to stop civilizations based on farmland to go on and civilize the desert. when there is a "blending" tile with desertic zone go "alt" . >.> (or similar dunno how you coded it)

Those kinds of restrictions are already accounted for in the code (any tile with desert is already designated as such in the world feature dictionary), but thanks for the idea. :)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Epithemius on October 09, 2011, 06:21:50 pm
Posting to follow. Looks great so far!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2011, 06:27:24 pm
Yeah I like the look of that better.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 09, 2011, 10:21:14 pm
So beautiful...
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Aklyon on October 09, 2011, 10:25:08 pm
Looks cool.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: mr. macduggan on October 09, 2011, 11:15:12 pm
I actually preferred the nontiled fonts for the water and the terrain, but that's just me.

Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: finka on October 10, 2011, 11:47:47 am
If you could choose randomly from more than one tile for displaying these textured regions, that would help to reduce the griddy visual artifacts further.  (I don't know if libtcod imposes font size limits on you or whatnot.)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Roboboy33 on October 10, 2011, 11:45:05 pm
Is it possible to dig out walls and build stuff?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 11, 2011, 01:58:25 am
Is it possible to dig out walls and build stuff?

No, not yet. Sadly I haven't had much time to work on this lately. Once I get the main game engine going, however, I do plan on having modifiable terrain as well as a building engine that will allow the player to save architectural 'blueprints' of their own making and then reapply them to any other suitable location.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 12, 2011, 07:03:17 am
I've opened a blog to make note of my musical exploits.  There you can find tracks that I'm writing for Cult, as well as some of my older work.  There is the completed version of the worldbuilding theme, and a new track for autumn.

http://sentientdeth.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Mephansteras on October 12, 2011, 02:11:47 pm
I've opened a blog to make note of my musical exploits.  There you can find tracks that I'm writing for Cult, as well as some of my older work.  There is the completed version of the worldbuilding theme, and a new track for autumn.

http://sentientdeth.blogspot.com/

Those are some pretty nifty tracks!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 12, 2011, 02:27:26 pm
Thanks =)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 14, 2011, 07:34:45 am
If you could choose randomly from more than one tile for displaying these textured regions, that would help to reduce the griddy visual artifacts further.  (I don't know if libtcod imposes font size limits on you or whatnot.)

I could do this, and it wouldn't be extremely difficult to implement the code, but I'll probably wait. I'm not too concerned with making things look visually perfect right now - especially when it's just crappy developer art I'm using (i.e., my work). If/when somebody who can actually work with tiles properly wants to get on board with this, then I'd be happy to get more in-depth with the graphical end of coding.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 21, 2011, 07:49:01 am
Been working very heavily on creature spread code for the last few days (when I have time, anyhow). I have the next two days off after a double today, and I'm hoping to get creature spread into an acceptable state during that period and move on to the next phase of development. I'm going to leave worldgen in its current unfinished state, since that seems like it's going to be a necessary evil, and begin work on the game engine itself. Theoretically, that will allow me to integrate new changes to the worldgen with new changes in gameplay itself.

Appended: I added a link to Sentientdeth's blog to the Cult page.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 23, 2011, 12:41:33 pm
Sounds awesome! =D
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 23, 2011, 11:15:24 pm
Other than my needing to add a lot of complicated ecosystem-forming algorithms once I can delve into worldgen more, creature spread (for amphibians and terrestrial creatures, anyway) is now finished. I've got it working functionally, if not perfectly, although it's definitely a resource hog and will probably end up being the most time consuming part of worldgen as it is. I'm thinking I'll eventually tweak the algorithm a bit so that the actual expansion process takes place over blocks of tiles rather than just one-at-a-time, to speed things up.

But the most important part of it - the fact that it will give  adventurers something to hunt/kill/interact with/whatever as a placeholder until I can do more work on it - is functional.

Which means I can now, officially, get started on gameplay. Whew.

Also, I did more work on the terrain tiles; there are now four per tile type (mountain, water, grass) which are randomly selected for each tile space to make things look less repetitive. Hopefully it helps; I'll let you be the judge:

Warning: HUGE IMAGE (http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/moretilework.png)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Neonivek on October 23, 2011, 11:18:01 pm
That image reminds me of SimEarth

Where the world actually seems somewhat nondescript until you strip away all the creatures and plants. and see that the map is actually quite detailed.

I hope you work on forest tiles a bit more so it doesn't hurt the overall map.

Edit addition: MIND you, I am not saying it is the same situation. Just similar idea.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on October 23, 2011, 11:20:18 pm
much better tiling now
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 23, 2011, 11:25:42 pm
That image reminds me of SimEarth

Where the world actually seems somewhat nondescript until you strip away all the creatures and plants. and see that the map is actually quite detailed.

I hope you work on forest tiles a bit more so it doesn't hurt the overall map.

If I can find somebody decent enough at pixel art to make multiple varieties of not-horrible-looking 10x10 pixel trees for each type of forest/swamp/etc, awesome. But *I* certainly don't possess that ability.  ;D
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 24, 2011, 09:52:22 am
So, I accidentally got to work an hour early today. Since I've got an hour to kill, I suppose I should be productive and lay out a rough outline of how I'd like to proceed at this point.

1. Get the basic framework for movement on the world map in place. This includes passage of time and weather effects, and later integration with random encounters and ambushes and such.

2. Begin procedural generation of different terrain types on a close-up scale. This is presumably going to suck up a LOT of time, since there are so many different types of terrain and biomes to cover.

3. Once 1 and 2 are complete, get basic gameplay mechanics like pathing and LOS into place. I'm not terribly worried about this step, necessary as it is, because those mechanics have been so widely hashed and rehashed that documentation on how to handle them is widely available.

4. Handle creature spawning and basic combat, plus dungeon generation for simpler dungeon types.

5. Get a basic crafting and building system into place, including modifiable terrain and resource gathering. This will probably go hand-in hand with early vestiges of a recruitment/group-organization system so that you can send villager flunkies and peasants out to do your menial work for you.

This should keep me busy for quite a while, or so I can only imagine.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on October 24, 2011, 02:19:47 pm
Alrighty, I've got the Summer track *done*.  I put that in asterisks because I'm not completely satisfied with the result, but I've tinkered with it for three days in a mostly completed state, and this is the best I could come up with for now.  I may end up scrapping it later down the line and re-writing it, but for now I'll leave it, as there are a few more tracks I'd like to get done before gameplay comes around, namely Winter, Spring, and combat music. 

I have some experience doing pixel art, but honestly, I don't think I could really do a better job than what LD has, at least in a 10x10 image.  If the images were larger, I'm sure I could make some pretty little icons, but I'm sure that would probably require a lot of coding to change, and at this point, I'd rather see gameplay get started than prettier pictures. 

You can hear the Summer track at my blog (http://sentientdeth.blogspot.com/).

And LD, I really like what I see!  Keep up the great work man!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 25, 2011, 06:07:01 am
Loving the new track. It's very... for lack of a better word, dwarfy-sounding.  8) I'm spending this morning doing some more work on code; mostly some tweaks to creature spread to speed it up a bit before I get started on gameplay basics. I'll post some screens of creature spread in a moment.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 25, 2011, 06:22:17 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is a shot of creatures populating the world. The current problem I'm facing is that while it works exactly as I'd like it to, it takes too damned long. And I know that if it's taking too long on my computer, it's going to be completely unacceptable on older rigs.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 25, 2011, 06:45:29 am
what is the "way of thought" for creature spreading?
maybe you could try and make it simpler, or less memory requirement (aka random with a bit of constriction. [like, next to salty water, only fishes or crabs] )
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 25, 2011, 07:01:29 am
It's a bit more complicated than that. There are plenty of restrictions on biomes that creatures can inhabit already, and anyway, the goal is for the world to be widely inhabited so that there are no 'empty spaces'. There'll probably be a few of these anyway, but I've thought of some shortcuts for eliminating completely barren wastelands. Everywhere should be inhabited by something.

The problem is that there are hundreds of creatures spreading out over the world, and each one needs to test each square that it's spreading to in order to see if that square is a compatible biome. If there's a solution, it's going to be syntactical, not theoretical. I need to rearrange how I'm testing each tile on the grid in some way that's more efficient (i.e., avoid searching a whole dictionary or list for each test).
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: shadenight123 on October 25, 2011, 07:45:06 am
maybe go "matryoshka" style.
divide things in really really simple sectors, and then complicate them afterwards.
so to say:
"hospitable"-->"greenery"/"watery"-->forest/jungle - lake-rivers
"non-hospitable" -->"deserty"/"mountainy"-->desert/beach -peaks/tundra
and you "could" place a random call everytime a creature is there that, in the event of it being impossible to live in a "non-hospitable" biome, it would avoid checking for the things underneath, thus cutting in half the work of the processor...
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Knight of Fools on October 25, 2011, 09:59:38 am
I don't know much about programming, and I don't know how you've got it set up currently, but could you have an assigned number for each variation and just have a list of compatible variations for each creature? That way, each creature is only checking against a small list of numbers instead of a whole list of compatible biomes.

So, Creature A is can live in Types 1, 2, 4 and 8 biomes, where each number represents an entire list of characteristics, such as elevation, plant life, temperature, humidity, nearby water, soil, food availability, and whatever. If it's checking against a biome type 3, then it simply runs checks to see if three is in that list. If it's not there, the creature doesn't move in. If it is, it spreads itself out more.

I'm not too sure how well this would work, because you'd end up with a lot of possible combinations, but you wouldn't have to have the program scanning through the other conditions to see if enough conditions match up for that creature to move in. You'd just have one match to make, comparing the biome against the creature, and it's finished.

The pain would be setting it up - If it even works better than what you already have.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on October 26, 2011, 09:07:50 am
I got the algorithm working much better, although I still want to tweak it a bit because I suspect it will be painfully slow on older computers. It's still much less time-consuming than it was by an order of magnitude or three.

Also, I managed to begin work on the code that handles starting up a new game after a world has been generated. I'll post more updates as my schedule allows. I have double shifts today and tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes (I really need to find a job with a slightly less crazy schedule).

I'm actually really excited to begin work on the parts of the game that will allow real interaction with the world. I have some ideas about implementing the various types of landscapes that I'm itching to try, too. Although this is going to take a while, barring any unforeseen changes in my schedule.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on November 07, 2011, 02:39:09 am
New track, check out my blog (http://sentientdeth.blogspot.com/).
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Epithemius on December 19, 2011, 10:10:22 pm
Sorry, I realise I'm breaking the whole "necro" thing, but has this gone dead? I hope not, it seems like a really great project.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Servant Corps on December 20, 2011, 11:40:46 pm
Development has been slow anyway, so I don't think this project has been abandoned yet.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 04, 2012, 08:51:13 am
Nope - not dead. But a bit stalled, yes. It isn't the first time development has stalled; I can't afford to make this a full-time activity right now. I've been working six-day weeks with at least four or five of those being doubles, so... doing anything mentally taxing on my one day off has not really been a priority, unfortunately.

On the bright side, I'm now going down to a schedule of only four days a week, starting this week. Theoretically this means I'll no longer be devoting all of my time off to cleaning, chore-running, and doing other necessary things.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on January 11, 2012, 01:17:29 am
Woot!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 11, 2012, 07:24:37 am
Hey!
It's funny that you drew my attention! You see I am also making a roguelike, with libtcod, although mine is called 'Cultist',  :P
Anyway, your game looks spectacular. No seriously, few roguelikes qualify as eye candy, but this is great. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.

Anyway, I'm having sort of an issue that might have already been solved, or maybe not, but your window is too big for my screen. I know libtcod makes fullscreen very easy, so if there isn't yet a solution for this then that is something to look at.

Either way, good luck, and happy coding!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 11, 2012, 07:49:42 am
I will add a fullscreen setting to the game at some point. The code itself already accommodates (to some degree, at least) user-specified resolutions set via an init file, but I haven't bothered to bugger around with any of the init stuff as long as I'm just doing early dev work. Since I hope to have some gameplay elements in place for people to test with the next release of the alpha version, I'll probably include an init file with it that'll allow users to either specify their own resolution or switch to fullscreen if they prefer.

Oh, and keep me updated on your RL.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 22, 2012, 12:28:01 am
Well, I've hit a bit of a coder's block.'

I'm starting on town generation for when you embark into the early parts of the game (for the purposes of simplicity, at least for now, the player will be selecting a city or village to begin the game in, probably in a somewhat Darklands-esque  manner). But... I really don't know where to start with procedural generation. That is to say: should I start with the terrain, and just work from there? The problem with that is that I'd have to code in all the settings for multiple terrain types, which seems a little over-ambitious for the moment. Also, I'm not exactly certain how I'm going to have the world generate map edges that match up to each other (i.e., if you wander across the border of one map square and into the next, how will the game make the terrain scroll smoothly while procedurally generating each square?).

So... yeah. Just a bit stuck, at the moment...
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on January 22, 2012, 05:10:06 am
Feeling the same way right now.  Think I've got the winter-dontwannadonothin-blues.  Probably has something to do with me taking most of my inspiration from nature, and it's too fucking cold to go outside.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: EagleV on January 22, 2012, 05:42:24 am
Assuming you use perlin noise, say you've got a tile with height 5 next to one with height 4. Then on tile 5, the border with 4 will get a low value automatically for the least detailed noise function, and random values for the others as usual.

Example: say your biggest noise function has an amplitude of 32, your tile height 5 means it starts at 500m, 4 means its start at 400m.

The tile 5 borders would then have a height of 500 - 32 (lowest possible) +- 31 (due to the other, still random perlin functions) m.
The tile 4 borders would then have a height of 400 + 32 (highest possible) +- 31 (depending on neighbouring tiles) m.
You can then make sure the tile 5 and tile 4 borders don't differ too much, by adjusting the lesser perlin functions in the borders of tile 4 (the underlined factor).

As for fitting buildings in terrain, you could make a few functions, 'build_on_flattened_ground', 'build_on_poles', 'build_in_hillside', then choose a few random places for buildings with higher chances on flatter ground or near water, and then, flatter ground has a higher chance of spawning a normal building where the ground is leveled first, hills have a higher chance that the building will be partially dug in or with a side that rests on poles.

No idea if you can do anything with any of that, but good luck!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 22, 2012, 06:07:08 am
Well the first step is to try and define what a town is.
What does a town have in it? What is absolutely required? What is optional? Think about every possible thing that a town has and list them down. Buildings and subtypes of buildings, like houses and pubs, roads, people, wells, walls, trees, all of it.

Now that you have what you need, think carefully about how they all join together. Plot out a mind map if you need, but remember that how you structure this will be one of the biggest aspects of how your towns will look. Start with the concept of a town in the middle, and go from there.

For example, if I decide a town has buildings, and roads go between the buildings, then that would imply genning a bunch of randomly placed buildings and fitting roads between them. This would cause a great little maze of buildings full of side allies and hard to navigate.
If, instead, I decide that a town has roads and buildings are placed on the sides of roads, then I would gen my roads first, giving me longer, straighter roads that are easier to navigate, and neat little rows of buildings lining the sides.

Just think about what you want to achieve, and break it down into smaller steps.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Quarynn on January 23, 2012, 12:56:43 am
*drools* World generation...
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 23, 2012, 09:10:28 am
Well... finally making some progress. I just needed to do something to get started.

Thanks for the input, guys.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Geen on January 24, 2012, 10:44:20 pm
OOoh, this looks awesome. Watching.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 26, 2012, 09:35:23 am
I have ~3.5 days off after a morning shift today. So excited.  :D I want to get a lot of work done now that I've gotten into the early parts of regional map generation.

I'll post some screens once things are further along; hopefully that will be by the end of the weekend, but it depends on how far I've come. At the moment I'm just working on grasslands and plains; once the actual terrain generation is done I'll start on town/city generation, since the player will be selecting a town or city to begin adventuring in as a part of the chargen process.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2012, 11:44:07 am
Well, I've got reflective water working. Having way too much fun with that.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Neonivek on January 27, 2012, 11:52:49 am
Well, I've got reflective water working. Having way too much fun with that.  :D

I am kinda dumbfounded by just the idea of ASCII reflections.

Now if only someone could copy IVAN's liquid code. (not a hint)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2012, 12:54:42 pm
Well, I've got reflective water working. Having way too much fun with that.  :D

I am kinda dumbfounded by just the idea of ASCII reflections.

Now if only someone could copy IVAN's liquid code. (not a hint)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCsEx5h6kQI&feature=youtu.be

Here's a sample video.

The landscape is pretty barren, of course, since I haven't started adding the really fun stuff yet (trees, shrubs, paths, weather effects, etc). I'll start on that today, though. Eventually I'd like to get the water to also reflect trees, structures, etc. For now it's just clouds.  :)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Mephansteras on January 27, 2012, 01:25:30 pm
Wow. Impressive!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 27, 2012, 01:27:07 pm
Okay, I added another, longer video for you folks. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQ3hJmXK0A&feature=youtu.be

This one shows site selection for the beginning of the game as well as the rudimentary regional terrain gen I've currently got in place. Luckily the first site I generated had a big pool of water smack dab in the middle of the game-camera, so there's another shot of reflective surfaces there as well.

This video is also in HD, so you can crank it up to 720p (or whatever) and fullscreen it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: EagleV on January 27, 2012, 01:30:27 pm
That looks great!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: melkorp on January 27, 2012, 01:58:01 pm
Beautiful, great work man
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on January 27, 2012, 04:58:49 pm
I'll probably get back to the soundtrack come spring, everything I write lately is crap.  Need me some nature-walks in non-arctic weather to get my groove back.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 28, 2012, 09:59:50 pm
Progress. For once, it's actually going smoothly.  :D


Grasslands will be pretty boring compared to some other terrain types, but that's why I started with them. Near settlements they'll also be converted to farmlands in many cases, so I'll have to design an entirely separate set of parameters for plowed fields and orchards.

For now the vegetation itself is pretty plain, but eventually it'll be different with each region you visit. During worldgen vegetation types will be procedurally generated along with creatures, with the ultimate result being that vegetation will be varied and worth studying.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2012, 10:37:53 pm
Wow, going to be honest, looks pretty amazing. Little jealous right now.
You have done really well with the lighting effects, it is looking more realistic than a lot of non-roguelike games.
Water is to die for. Seriously, fell in love with it. Would marry it if I could.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 28, 2012, 11:42:54 pm
Well, thank you very much! I'm going to try to get a bit more work done tonight. One more day off tomorrow, so I'll try to plug away a bit more until I have to go back to the daily grind again.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2012, 11:47:37 pm
So, looking at your water reflections, can I assume you have an array of bytes for the density of each cloud, and you use that as a coefficient to lerp the original water colour and white?

If so, couldn't you use that same method except with black to have the clouds cast shadows that move across the ground? I mean it would add to the processing required per tick, and as the luminosity of the ground is already used to show the shape of the ground it might give the effect of the ground moving, rather than shadows on it, but still, might be worth checking out, see how it runs and looks, and if it is worth it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 29, 2012, 12:45:32 am
So, looking at your water reflections, can I assume you have an array of bytes for the density of each cloud, and you use that as a coefficient to lerp the original water colour and white?

If so, couldn't you use that same method except with black to have the clouds cast shadows that move across the ground? I mean it would add to the processing required per tick, and as the luminosity of the ground is already used to show the shape of the ground it might give the effect of the ground moving, rather than shadows on it, but still, might be worth checking out, see how it runs and looks, and if it is worth it.

Yeah, I'd already considered doing this, actually; I know it would work and I could modify the code used for reflections to easily do the same. My main concern is the processing power required for it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 29, 2012, 01:09:54 am
Ah, I see. Always an issue when dealing with colour manipulation.
So if you don't mind me asking, where your trees cast shadows, is that derived while the level is in use each frame, or does it just darken those tiles on map gen?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 29, 2012, 01:13:15 am
Ah, I see. Always an issue when dealing with colour manipulation.
So if you don't mind me asking, where your trees cast shadows, is that derived while the level is in use each frame, or does it just darken those tiles on map gen?

For now, it's just on map-gen. That's just because the day-night cycle isn't yet implemented, though; it'll eventually be derived by the time of day, although probably not 'each frame' (since that would be a big, unnecessary expenditure of processor speed).

ETA:

Tested cloud-shadows, and they do look damned nice. Not sure whether I'll leave them in or not; I'll keep the code snippet around and see how badly it affects the speeds of actual gameplay, I suppose.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 29, 2012, 02:37:24 am
Are you deriving the displayed value every frame?
I figure if you only do it once every second or so, and move it off to its own thread, it shouldn't impact performance noticeably. Clouds will move some what slowly at best, but it should only add to the majestic feel you have going.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Sentientdeth on January 29, 2012, 02:45:58 am
Absolutely beautiful!
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 29, 2012, 11:08:13 am
Are you deriving the displayed value every frame?
I figure if you only do it once every second or so, and move it off to its own thread, it shouldn't impact performance noticeably. Clouds will move some what slowly at best, but it should only add to the majestic feel you have going.

Well, the problem with deriving the value every second or so is that it creates a very 'jumpy' look to the shadows. If it came down to that I'd probably rather just leave it out.

I may be able to figure something out, though. We'll see.

ETA:

Whoops! Okay, cloud shadows are in. :D

Evidently when I created the thread to compute the cloud shadows/reflections, for some reason I was calling the process repeatedly via the game's main code loop rather than actually keeping the thread process itself alive via a 'while' loop. Not sure why I did this (except that just beforehand I'd been a separate algorithm that did actually require a hook in the main code loop), but it's fixed now, and running as smooth as silk.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Fniff on January 29, 2012, 12:50:26 pm
I'd happily play the game if I was just wandering around! This looks amazing.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 29, 2012, 08:06:02 pm
Okay, cloud shadows are in. :D
Wonderful news! Are you planning on uploading a video of this new visual effect to your blog?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 30, 2012, 09:20:34 am
Coding in the morning with a cup of coffee... that's real relaxation.  :) ALMOST makes me forget that I have to go to my actual, boring job in a couple of hours...

Eh-ehm. I'll upload a video soon, after I finish up one or two more small additions.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 30, 2012, 03:03:56 pm
Double-post, sorry. But I have a video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iisZLPfPtsk&feature=youtu.be

Aside from cloud shadows, I added a 'transparency layer'. You'll see the effect in the movie when the PC walks under the tree canopy. I still have some tweaking to do here - I want to make the edges of your field of vision fade out via alpha transparency/lerping rather than the cutoff being so sudden - but the framework is there.

ETA:

For some reason the video quality on this one isn't very good - I assume I accidentally messed with a setting somewhere. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on January 30, 2012, 07:20:59 pm
Wow... Looks awesome!
I am left wondering how much effort it would be to make a program that genns a landscape with clouds and such, and can be used as your screen saver, because I would use it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 01, 2012, 09:35:38 am
Okay, another quick video before I'm off to work for another double shift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO5LzikfJ84&feature=youtu.be

Got a bit further along with shadows, and they're now pretty dynamic compared to when I started out. Additionally I have the basics of collision detection and an information box/announcement system in place, although I think my weekend project will be designing dynamic scroll bars so that you can skim through old messages and bring up a pop-up version of the same.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Valid_Dark on February 01, 2012, 01:27:44 pm
I think those shadows look a bit too dark to be from clouds.

from personal experience, you only really see cloud shadows at high altitudes, and even then it's never that dark,  Unless it's a heavy overcast with dark rain clouds.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on February 01, 2012, 05:32:27 pm
Still procrastinating on starting the gods LD? :P

I kid. The cloud shadows and 1:1 view look great. I only made the joke because I'm surprised you chose to invest time in something like cloud shadows at this stage in the development.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 01, 2012, 08:55:06 pm
Still procrastinating on starting the gods LD? :P

Gods were put on hold so that I could work on the game engine proper, since most people seemed to want that rather than for me to continue working on worldgen details.

I intend to make everything look and feel interesting. I work best when I can let my obsession with detail run wild.

And frankly, at this point I have no real 'schedule' for development. I've decided I'll do what I feel like when I feel like it, since making it something fiscally productive seems out of the question, at least for a good long while. If I'm not enjoying it there's no point in my continuing, so I'll do what I damned well please.  :D (I know you were just joking, so am I - well, sort of!)
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on February 01, 2012, 09:19:40 pm
No, I totally get that. It can be the mundane filling out of stuff or the weird "I don't know how this works" stuff that can stop a project dead in its tracks. And that may be some of the prettiest ASCII I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Epithemius on February 01, 2012, 09:36:36 pm
And that may be some of the prettiest ASCII I've ever seen.
The look of the game is pretty damn great. I like that when not actively moving your character, the environment is still moving, not frozen in time. The cloud shadows are a great idea. Same with the reflective water, it's still ACSII, but much more detailed and realistic.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 03, 2012, 10:27:35 pm
Currently working on pathfinding for point-and-click maneuvering of the PC (and of course I'll need the algorithm later for NPCs, too). After that I'm going to be doing some more work on the regional map generator, which will probably take a significant amount of time, since I have to account for so many different potential biomes.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on February 03, 2012, 10:29:38 pm
I thought libcod came with path finding algorithms for you to use.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Willfor on February 03, 2012, 10:35:28 pm
I thought libcod came with path finding algorithms for you to use.
Imagine how much libtcod clashed with how you wanted to work with the graphics and interface. Now imagine that same circumstance as applying to libtcod's pathfinding capabilities.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on February 03, 2012, 10:36:44 pm
Eh, that had more to do with the horrid way it handled input. From my short testing of it, it did lighting and path finding alright.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 03, 2012, 10:46:05 pm
Yes, it comes with path finding in both A* and Dijkstra's implementations.

I'm not terribly interested in using them, since I'm also probably not going to be using libtcod's FOV, and its path finding is dependent on the use of its FOV maps.

And the simple and short answer is: I'd rather do it myself.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on February 03, 2012, 10:50:07 pm
Ah, an respectable answer if ever I knew one.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 03, 2012, 10:58:31 pm
This does, however, bring me to an interesting impasse. Up until now I'd pretty much planned on making the game real-time as opposed to turn-based, since I have a number of ideas that would simply work better if that were the case. But, if anybody has any arguments as to why I shouldn't do this, now would be the time to put them forth, before I start writing time-based movement. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on February 03, 2012, 11:01:47 pm
You are only using libtcod for graphics, right? Not input?
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 03, 2012, 11:08:36 pm
The input has worked just fine and dandy, for me. No problems at all thus far.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Max White on February 03, 2012, 11:10:13 pm
Well see how it goes, but I love real time roguelikes.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 04, 2012, 01:25:48 am
I'm all for real time, as long as you can easily pause it.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2012, 09:52:15 am
A* algorithm complete, and appears to be working well thus far.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2012, 12:31:16 pm
I prefer turn-based in games like this. Imagine DF with no ability to stop and smell the roses.

I'm ok with real-time, but if I had my druthers it would have an active pause key like DF, where you can punch it to freeze time but you can still operate the UI, look around, gather information, ect....
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 04, 2012, 03:17:08 pm
I prefer turn-based in games like this. Imagine DF with no ability to stop and smell the roses.

I'm ok with real-time, but if I had my druthers it would have an active pause key like DF, where you can punch it to freeze time but you can still operate the UI, look around, gather information, ect....

That's pretty much what I had planned.

Real-time, but with a pause key that would allow the player to gather information and also make tactical decisions (a la Dragon Age or Mass Effect, albeit a lot more detailed than that). But I'd prefer the ability to maintain real-time combat with MMO-like hotkeys/shortcuts. As much as I love old-school roguelikes, I much prefer the fluidity of real-time combat.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Antsan on February 04, 2012, 03:27:24 pm
I don't really like real time in those games. It puts me under pressure and I see no point to it, when the game isn't based on reaction (I avoid those games) or you often need to wait for a long time (like in Dwarf Fortress). Also it's easier to skip boring passages of travel.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: mr. macduggan on February 04, 2012, 03:44:20 pm
I like realtime. It'll set cult apart from all of the other roguelikes. The graphics seem good enough to support it. I would definitely include a pause menu where you can look around/manage inventory/other things like in dwarf fortress though, not a menu screen that comes up on pause. If you could get the same pausing system as, say, icewind dale, that would be sweet.
Title: Re: Cult - NEW ALPHA TECH DEMO v0.2!
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 05, 2012, 07:54:52 am
Testing out the point-and-click interface:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWqThSdMhso&feature=youtu.be

So far, so good. I think I've worked out the majority of the kinks. All of the maneuvering I do in that video is via the mouse. Obstruction-checking is also present (you'll notice the 'you can't reach that place' message when I click on a tree trunk). FRAPS does lag my PC a bit due to the sheer amount of memory it hogs while recording, so you'll have to pardon occasional stutters (these don't exist when running the game without a recording program).

Also, updated the Cult devblog (http://cultrl.wordpress.com/) accordingly.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: EagleV on February 05, 2012, 04:33:01 pm
So is that with A* implemented or not? Because if it is, it seems diagonal moves 'cost' as much as orthogonal ones, which makes movement look silly at 00:23. The path along the shore may be one of several shortest paths, it just doesn't look like one because of the diagonal up- and downhopping. IMHO it would look much smoother, with straighter paths, and more realistic, if you gave diagonal moves a cost of 1.4 or so.

Of course, if that was just a temporary pathfinding algorithm, I'm sorry for the intrusion  ;)
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 05, 2012, 06:02:05 pm
So is that with A* implemented or not? Because if it is, it seems diagonal moves 'cost' as much as orthogonal ones, which makes movement look silly at 00:23. The path along the shore may be one of several shortest paths, it just doesn't look like one because of the diagonal up- and downhopping. IMHO it would look much smoother, with straighter paths, and more realistic, if you gave diagonal moves a cost of 1.4 or so.

Of course, if that was just a temporary pathfinding algorithm, I'm sorry for the intrusion  ;)

Actually, I didn't notice that - I'll have to investigate. Diagonal moves currently have a cost of 14, whilst horizontal/vertical cost 10. Not sure why for the discrepancy.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 06, 2012, 09:56:39 am
Fixed. Thanks for the catch.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 06, 2012, 12:23:26 pm
I don't know how I missed the non-main map updates. I saw trees and stuff, and was like, "WOAH!" And then I noticed that the cloud shadows moved and stuff.

Looks sweet. I need to keep myself more updated, 'round here.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on February 06, 2012, 12:30:11 pm
i want to throw you so much money... unfortunately i can barely afford food currently
if you keep this development rate foresee i'll be losing some weight, though
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: njero on February 07, 2012, 02:19:49 am
PTW! Your engine, it is beautiful.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2012, 08:22:02 am
Yeah, when you finally feel ready for a release, I'll be sure to throw some bucks your way.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 09, 2012, 10:07:02 am
~3.5 days off after this morning's shift. I'm going to be cranking out some more code by the end of the weekend, methinks.

After next week I'm officially done with my current job.  :D After saving up some subsistence monies, I have decided I will try to hammer Cult into a semi-playable state over the next couple of months. I may or may not get a part-time morning job or something, depending on how code comes along... with any luck I can avoid that, but then again, it's always nice to have a back-up plan.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2012, 10:12:23 am
Good luck LD, I hope you make some substantial progress with the free time you'll have.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: NRDL on February 09, 2012, 10:27:06 am
~3.5 days off after this morning's shift. I'm going to be cranking out some more code by the end of the weekend, methinks.

After next week I'm officially done with my current job.  :D After saving up some subsistence monies, I have decided I will try to hammer Cult into a semi-playable state over the next couple of months. I may or may not get a part-time morning job or something, depending on how code comes along... with any luck I can avoid that, but then again, it's always nice to have a back-up plan.

You're gonna quit your job?  Looks to me like you're following the PATH OF THE TOAD:

1. Start game with an awesome basis.
2. Quit job, giving you more freetime to develop awesome game.
3. Release free game as playable, creating massive fanbase. 
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Mephansteras on February 09, 2012, 01:07:55 pm
Good luck! I hope you get some serious progress done in the next few months. Maybe you'll be able to get it to a point where you can start making money off of it!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 09, 2012, 09:08:52 pm
Thank you all for the encouragement.  :)

I got a fair bit of work done today. Also did a lot of studying up on binary heaps, which I will be using in the pathfinding algorithm. I've got that nearly complete, as well.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 13, 2012, 11:30:46 pm
Should have spring done pretty soon.  I have the main theme of the track put together, just need to flesh out a few leads.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 14, 2012, 08:49:49 am
Awesome! I'm really excited to hear it.  :D

I have made some more progress on the game, although this is a busy week for me, so I probably won't get too much done until after Thursday/Friday.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 16, 2012, 11:32:00 pm
Yeah, I've had a pretty busy week myself.  Should be able to finish the solos this weekend, as long as I can get some uninterrupted alone time and don't get distracted by the shiny new DF release too much.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 17, 2012, 11:49:13 am
Just finished listening to Sentientdeth's new Spring track. It is AWESOME.  :D

I am crazily lucky to have such a talented composer helping me out with the project. Can't wait for all of you to hear the music in-game.

ETA:
As long as I'm posting to exult over Sentiendeth's great music, I may as well also do a quick progress update.

I've spent quite a bit of time optimizing code. World maps load considerably quicker now, as a result, due to my removing/reworking some very inefficient drawing algorithms where, for some bizarre reason, I had been using list-based rather than dictionary-based searches. I think I'm going to go back through all of the code in the Creatures worldgen section and clean it up as well, since I suspect the same inefficient list searches are bogging it down.

Also finished coding up clickable scroll bars and a message log, and did extensive testing on them.

Also coded up a flood-fill method for the pathfinder that prevents it from going through needlessly long searches to get to unreachable areas.

I've started work on world map travel. So far, so good. We'll see how much I can get done today before I have to go in for a shift tonight.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 17, 2012, 08:01:45 pm
Well soundcloud seems to be having a pretty slow time encoding, so I'll just give you guys a direct link for now.
http://www.mediafire.com/?t1h5srhazdzg5qb
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2012, 08:15:48 pm
Dude.

First 8 seconds in I already knew I was going to like it. I like how it's got discordant notes that kind of give it an anguished sound. Got a lot of variety in it too. It was not what I was expecting at all.

If this is what we can expect out of everything you're doing for Cult, between LD's ASCII art and your music, and the premise of the game itself....you guys will turn some heads.

It's good enough it's going into my RPG music file.

Small critique. The intro is perhaps the best part to me. My first image when I heard it was "desolate church yard, bell tolling." It felt very medieval there right at the beginning. I'd try and incorporate a little more of it, maybe to bring the track full circle.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 17, 2012, 08:24:33 pm
Thanks bud!  I was thinking about making the intro longer, but I don't really like looping the lead tracks, so it would involve writing more leads, and there's no telling whether I could write anything else that would fit well in there.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2012, 08:27:18 pm
Just for my own edification...don't you kind of need to loop it if it's going to be dominant background music? I mean there's no law that says you have to, but the restart of the track is pretty noticeable. Maybe you could blend it just a little bit more.

Either way, one tiny quibble in an amazing track.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 17, 2012, 08:29:54 pm
Yeah, it loops better in Guitarpro, I'll give you that, I'll see what I can do about cleaning up the loop.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Mephansteras on February 17, 2012, 08:36:25 pm
Very nice, Sentientdeth. I'll have to add this to one of my playlists!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 17, 2012, 09:17:27 pm
Updated the track to loop better:
http://www.mediafire.com/?t1h5srhazdzg5qb
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2012, 09:43:12 pm
Nice, that's feels like it closes.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 18, 2012, 12:37:36 am
Sounds great.

Between you and OCRemix, I'm almost tempted to break out the music making software I bought forever ago...
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 18, 2012, 12:39:08 am
Thanks a lot guys!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 27, 2012, 12:33:02 pm
Well, back to work! Crusader Kings II swallowed me for a couple of days (I couldn't resist seeing if it's as addictive as its predecessor - it is), but I'm now back to full-time focus on code. I've made several changes to worldgen, but I won't be showing them off until my next video, which will be a lot more in-depth than any of the short preview shots I've put together so far. I think it'll be a sort of practice run for a Kickstarter campaign, so I can finally get that rolling; there are several major code hurdles I want to get over before I go through with that, but in the meantime perhaps some of you kind folks can help me to polish up my admittedly nonexistent video-producing skills in preparation for the project.

I'll be tossing up some pictures and info tidbits out within the next few days. I think I may also be adding a development roadmap section to the blog, which I'm beginning to realize is woefully inadequate for the future.

ETA:
Oh, and an important note, for some of you: while I haven't actually set up the init.txt file itself (relatively simple, and it'll be incorporated into the next release), the game's screen size is now completely adjustable. For those of you running on old Cold War-era laptops, yes, you can now lower the resolution. The lowest I've tested it on myself is 80*60 (i.e. 800 x 600, since each tile is 10x10 pixels), but theoretically it should work with even less tiles than that. You can also expand it as desired; I'm running it on 140x90 tiles right now, myself.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 28, 2012, 01:58:30 am
Woot!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on February 28, 2012, 12:11:06 pm
Well, work on biomes is taking me longer than expected, so I'll renege on my statement earlier that I'd save all previews of worldgen changes until later.

These three were generated in-a-row and scaled down via blit2x:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Color scheme has been changed, and there have been some major modifications to the way the terrain is generated. It produces MUCH more interesting results now. No more 'blob' landscapes, thankfully.

Back to work on regional biomes!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on February 28, 2012, 04:43:28 pm
This looks phenomenal!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on February 28, 2012, 05:42:15 pm
/beg

Please sir, can we have some mowar?

/beg
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Knight of Fools on February 29, 2012, 02:24:32 am
That is so sweet.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 05, 2012, 03:32:14 pm
Well, I'm going to try to put together a video today. Should be up within a few hours, if all goes reasonably well.

Update:

Still working. Caught some girlfriend aggro. I will stay up tonight until the wee hours putting things together - got all the recording done, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 05, 2012, 11:59:13 pm
Well, crud. I am going to have to delay posting the video until tomorrow, folks. A number of things got in the way of me finishing it up tonight, the foremost of those being that I can't use my desktop at the moment.

On the positive side, I hunted down several annoying bugs, made some progress on regional terrain generation, and also put up a new page on the blog. It's a (loose) development roadmap:

http://cultrl.wordpress.com/development-roadmap/

I'll be up early tomorrow working on the video, then doing more coding on regional generation.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Mephansteras on March 06, 2012, 12:45:55 pm
Looking really nice!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Fniff on March 06, 2012, 02:04:05 pm
Came up with an interesting idea for history generation, but it kinda revolves around the idea that the world isn't in a medieval stasis.

Perhaps there should be varying levels of advancement in each playthrough, probably putting a hard limit on the Renaissance (Or Victorian Era, but that maaay be too advanced), which change weapons, houses, magic, NPCs, armor and even the Gods themselves as time goes on. In one playthrough you could be blasting Scracks with your dual multi-barrel repeaters on your way to warn the mayor of a werewolf infestation, while in another you are thwacking bandits wearing bronze platemail with your Morningstar. These could be sorted into different organizations that don't mix (Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Medieval Age, Renaissance) or you could simply make it so that ages just simply make certain things stop and other things are brought in without a sanity check, which could lead to some weird things such as bronze short swords alongside muskets and NPCs wearing chainmail while fighting with a wooden club. Former would make more sense, latter could lead to fun.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 06, 2012, 02:23:03 pm
Hey Fniff, thanks for the input.

I'd already considered various levels of scientific advancement; civilizations currently trend towards overall levels in several general cultural fields, one of which is technological prowess.

I don't think civilizations will be *too* technologically advanced - I'm thinking that very advanced civs will be more steampunk-esque than sci-fi. I don't want to fall too much into the 'magic vs. technology' vibe, either; even though civs will tend not to make heavy use of both, I don't think magic and technology will be mutually exclusive skills. For that matter, some gods will openly embrace technological prowess and encourage their devotees to strive towards it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Fniff on March 06, 2012, 02:31:41 pm
Brilliant, I didn't want sci-fi anyhow. Steampunk is perfect, though other styles aren't too bad either. And it's great that there isn't the need for exclusion, but there could be wars over magic and technology.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: malloc on March 06, 2012, 02:34:02 pm
^ Besides, it will be a lot of work to implement, as it is not really possible to implement a system where technology evolves on it's own.

Unless you are talking about a 10% in sword sharpness and a different colored hilt for each advancement in sword technology. Such a system would be easy to implement :p.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Mephansteras on March 06, 2012, 04:05:47 pm
A reasonable way to deal with technology is to assume that everyone goes for the most advanced thing available that they have the resources to create. If you include knowledge and magic as resources, then it should be fairly smooth to do transitions. That also allows for disparities (a stone age society not having the knowledge to use the iron in their area) and for the player to have a dynamic effect on the world by introducing new technologies.

Technological discovery could be a random event that occurs occasionally, with a higher chance of happening if a resource runs out. The Western Bronze Age moved to the Iron age, for example, when Tin became scarce in much of the Mediterranean world. They already had iron and knew how to work with it, but it wasn't until they needed to replace bronze that they figured out ways to make Iron a valid substitute (by creating a rather mild steel).
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 06, 2012, 07:16:33 pm
Thanks for the food for thought, guys. I'll definitely be coming back to this stuff later.

In other news, I'm FINALLY done with the video, and it will be going live as soon as conversion and YouTube uploading is finished. I really suck at this video-making stuff.

These aren't going to be Kickstarter videos (for one thing, they're way too long - both at about ten minutes). They're just development previews, and they give me some time to talk directly to viewers about the game.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2012, 07:41:36 pm
I'd love it if magic was a type of technology too... but that would just get complex, especially since you would have to develop a whole system of magic.

That way you could have Stone age societies with powerful knowledge about magic, giving them a multitude of spells and techniques, as well as resources that other civs would have trouble collecting such as Spirit contracts (Agreements between Fairies, Spirits, Gods, ghosts, nature itself or other supernatural entities), Bound Supernatural creatures, and vast stores of mana.

Mind you, as I said before it would get complicated. Though I always imagined that a primative magic society would be one where magic exists but is largely unknown and thus mages would be casting spells either from what they invented themselves or from pure expressions of though souls, minds or personalities. Though by what means does a magical society get more advanced without saying "well they make more spells". It would have to be a system in which magic itself can evolve (For example if Spirit contracts actually had to be discovered) but by what means is one more advanced then the other?

I am actually holding back greatly to admit.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 06, 2012, 07:58:20 pm
Okay, guys - here's part one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX_6fh8ieys&feature=youtu.be

Keep in mind, this is NOT meant to be Kickstarter-quality stuff (I didn't recite what I was saying at all, so there are lots of 'ums' and pauses for thought).
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2012, 08:11:05 pm
Ohhh goodness I love the music

It REALLY takes me back and is amazingly fantastic and creepy at the same time. Giving the impression of traversing a harsh and dangerous world. Give my kudos to the guy who does your music.

Unlike the constant "Pixie dust" anthems I get from other roguelikes that try (which isn't bad, but I consider Cult better).

Also curse the law of Next page amnesia!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2012, 08:53:07 pm
Man, that main game splash screen is just awesome. Simple, bold and sets the tone along with the cool looking font. Well done.

How do you plan to make procedural generation work with a tileset? I think we sort of had this discussion a while back.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 06, 2012, 09:04:26 pm
Man, that main game splash screen is just awesome. Simple, bold and sets the tone along with the cool looking font. Well done.

How do you plan to make procedural generation work with a tileset? I think we sort of had this discussion a while back.

I have some thoughts; I think I want to start off with a variety of basic body types, then procedurally 'add on' limbs and other body parts as the creature is generated. That would probably be pretty tough when you're trying to fit them into a 10x10 font set, but if I hire an artist, it's likely that I'll have them redo the world tiles too, so the tile size may end up getting larger (maybe doubling).

But really, I'll have to talk it over with whoever the artist ends up being. Alternatively I could do it myself, although that would take away from time I could be spending on coding the actual game, and the product would be inferior, since I'm inexperienced and generally just not great at anything too artistically fancy.
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 06, 2012, 09:19:06 pm
And here is part two!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFbERx7HUDY
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 06, 2012, 09:42:46 pm
Quote
I could be spending on coding the actual game, and the product would be inferior, since I'm inexperienced and generally just not great at anything too artistically fancy.

Says the guy who made that gorgeous ascii world and title screen ;)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Jack_Bread on March 06, 2012, 10:42:01 pm
Just a thought about naming, but what if regions are named only a civilization is on/has reached them? I bet a player would feel awesome discovering and naming an unnamed region.
Could also bring up a interesting diplomatic situation where two civs dispute the name of the region because they both reside on it...

It's looking good so far, though, and I love the new world generator!
Title: Re: Cult - New Videos Added to Topic/Devblog
Post by: Sentientdeth on March 06, 2012, 10:49:32 pm
Ohhh goodness I love the music

It REALLY takes me back and is amazingly fantastic and creepy at the same time. Giving the impression of traversing a harsh and dangerous world. Give my kudos to the guy who does your music.

Unlike the constant "Pixie dust" anthems I get from other roguelikes that try (which isn't bad, but I consider Cult better).

Also curse the law of Next page amnesia!

Thanks so much!!  Next on the list are combat anthems; it's time to get HEAVY.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Levi on March 06, 2012, 11:11:08 pm
That was a fun watch.  Pretty impressive!

Also, those are some of the best looking trees I've ever seen in a roguelike.   :o
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: EagleV on March 07, 2012, 04:54:49 am
This looks great, and I really should start posting encouraging posts without having to point out flaws. But I noticed a flaw.
There is, at one point in the map, a place where ice and desert connect (first video, 4:48). I'm guessing the ice is "cold - dry" and the desert is "hot - dry" or something? Anyway, to make it more realistic, there should be a "medium - dry" rock desert inbetween. The same goes for forests bordering on ice, right now it looks like "ice, ice, ice, jungle" without taiga/tundra inbetween.

Apart from that, it's a promising start for a game that has the potential to be brilliant. Please, for the love of all that is holy in your life, don't abandon it ever.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 07, 2012, 05:52:27 am
Hm - thanks, Eagle, I'll try to add some more variation in between the polar areas and the temperate zones. It should be fairly easy to create a 'tundra line' that'll eliminate tree growth after a certain point and up until the forest changes to coniferous-only. I probably should work on differentiating the various types of desert (there are five of them, according to wikipedia). Then again, I don't want to get too crazy with that stuff until I'm done with regional terrain, since adding even *more* to worldgen will just make everything else take longer at this point.

Update:
I have the clouds (both on the world and regional maps) moving WAY faster now. I'm not sure why I didn't think of it before, but I was interpolating the colors of *every* tile on the grid, instead of skipping tiles in which the color being interpolated to and from are the same (including the tiles with no clouds/cloud shadows at all, which was the bulk of the processing, since it still takes processing cycles to interpolate from one color to itself). At any rate, they're much more zippy and smooth-looking now, hurrah!

Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Sentientdeth on March 07, 2012, 09:20:54 am
Every update you make seems to blow me away; keep up the great work man!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on March 07, 2012, 09:30:59 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_Desert
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: EagleV on March 07, 2012, 09:40:27 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_Desert
Huh, I didn't know that. Apologies, LD.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 07, 2012, 09:55:30 am
No problem, the discussion we had about this already is buried several pages back, I think. Besides, I really should eventually diversify deserts a bit; I do need to add rocky deserts and mesas and interesting stuff like that to them, but it'll have to wait until I'm done getting the types of regional terrain I've already included fleshed out.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2012, 10:59:50 am
Since we're talking about deserts, I thought I should mention, there are different sand colors you can use to spice things up. Way back when, my dad was in Spain and was in charge of a display. The sand was actually shipped for the display from the UAE. Since people haven't seen anything like it before, more sand had to be shipped in as people kept taking it.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: finka on March 07, 2012, 03:15:55 pm
Regarding the dev goals for languages you briefly mentioned in video 1:  it's another one of those silly fantasy tropes that each species has a language.  A better starting point would be to associate a language to each culture

Even that's an oversimplification: when a culture influences another (through economic prestige or the like), the influencing culture might spread its language to the other; on the other hand, even if a culture conquers and absorbs a second, the language of the second culture might stick around in its former territory.  Or either of these sorts of situations can yield multilingualism across most of the population (e.g. there's a language used about the home and a language used to interact with the traders / rulers).  Etc.

Overall, I'd think language tracking would be a natural step to include in the culture spread part of worldgen.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 07, 2012, 03:23:00 pm
finka: Good points. I do feel that I need to be careful not to get too crazy with language, mainly because making it a necessity for the player to figure out could prove to be really boring/frustrating. OTOH, I've thought about allowing the player to hire/recruit 'translator' NPCs, or just allow them to unlock languages via having their character learn them in some abstract manner (one thing with Cult - I don't think I'll really limit the PC to learning a certain number of skills because of some hardcoded skill limit or allocation system; I'd rather have players with crazily overlearned PCs than players who can't utilize 90% of the game's skills and actions - of course, for most skills, it will be much easier to find somebody else who already knows it and recruit them than to spend long hours honing it yourself).

As it stands, a species can form multiple civilizations, which means multiple languages. I'm nowhere near the point with civs for them to be doing things like integrating with other species or forming multi-species society-structures yet, so that'll have to wait until more basic things are finished, but it's definitely something to think about.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2012, 05:34:29 pm
Maybe a linguistics skill that can help you identify languages and learn them faster? People can learn languages a lot more faster than we give them credit for. My dad's uncle knew at least seven.

Also, if there is a powerful nation, there would be a chance it's language will become common place. Sir Issac Newton wrote his books in French for a reason, and knowing Latin at the time of the Roman Empire would help, even throughout parts of the medievel age, as someone educated was bound to know it. Also, Pantomiming can get you places.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 07, 2012, 06:40:59 pm
Well, this is pretty cool. Thanks to Alex Poysky and his friend Ben, to whom I have just been introduced: http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 08, 2012, 01:48:10 pm
It's looking great so far.

One little nit-pick about shadows: Shadows from the clouds shouldn't overlap with tree shadows. And a random idea: If you wanted to give a sense of a 3D world in the region maps, you could have clouds move less than the land as you move the screen around, making them seem closer to the screen. I have no clue how easy that would be, though.


If the player is meant to get emotionally connected with the character, is the game going to be as fatal as other rogue-likes? I know that I wouldn't waste time getting to know a character I knew could die due to bad luck or a poor choice, and I don't know many people that would. In fact, the only character I'd spend time getting to know and develop is one that I would be able to play the entire game through. If I were to turn a corner and die, I'd take comfort know that I could reload the game to a previous save or simply get knocked unconscious.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2012, 04:16:11 pm
Though I will say that when death is pernament and frequent it covers up the game's flaws very well.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 08, 2012, 04:24:45 pm
Yeah, I've been meaning to fix a couple of things with the shadows, I just haven't gotten around to it quite yet. They're still pretty basic, and it takes a while to figure out exactly how to best create dynamic shadows in a 2D all-text world.

As far as characters and death, I think there'll be a few options for players. The game will default to a save/reload system, since I think most people will be choosing that. There will be a hardcore mode available with permadeath, however. And that mode will have two subtypes - 'true' hardmode, wherein if you die you're permanently done for, and then a 'genetic continuation' (don't quote me on that name) that will allow you to play on as your character's offspring, if they have any, by fast-forwarding their life to the point where they're old enough to begin adventuring on their own. The latter will come as I have time to include it, of course, and will also depend on whether people show any interest, but I thought it could be a potentially interesting mechanic if you want to end up seeing how the world changes as history marches on (both independently of your bloodline and because of it).
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Mephansteras on March 08, 2012, 04:37:03 pm
That might be challenging, but the ability to play as your offspring would be awesome.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 08, 2012, 04:44:01 pm
'Challenging' is my middle name.

Mothers shouldn't name their children while they're still in labor...

Sorry, feel free to *brick* me...
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2012, 06:49:15 pm
Quote
As far as characters and death, I think there'll be a few options for players. The game will default to a save/reload system, since I think most people will be choosing that. There will be a hardcore mode available with permadeath, however.

Thank you, for this. It kills me that hardcore games like DF and Dungeon Crawl refuse to add this as a legitimate option. When I started writing up design docs for games I want to make, that was one of the first bullet points I put in. I like hardcore, but I want the option. And I hate juggling save files. And sometimes, you just want to see the next bloody area without having to go into autistic mode just to survive.

I think there are a lot of great hardcore/ironman games out there that many people never bother to fully explore, because they simply don't have the will/energy to die the requisite number of times to get there. It's a real problem to me when games are so demanding by design that half of people who play them never see more than 15% of the content.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 08, 2012, 07:05:38 pm
That's exactly how I feel, Nenjin. That's what kills most rogue-likes for me.

Yes, even Dwarf Fortress: Adventure Mode.


Another thing that made me very happy was the lack of limitations to your skills. I almost squealed. The power gamer inside of me actually did.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2012, 07:08:26 pm
Not to mention that a load and save option actually gives you the ability to prepare for something without needing to start the game all over again. It also allows you to see a new mechanic the game throws at you without you needing a Wiki in order to prevent restarting the game.

For example lets say you are playing and all of a sudden you face your first Archmage for the first time. He just outright kills you. A new player could just restart and now they know that Archmages are sort of a big deal and can experiement to see how to defeat it, instead of just reading the Wiki. Especially since you never know how tough an enemy is until you fight them.

Quote
It's a real problem to me when games are so demanding by design that half of people who play them never see more than 15% of the content

Actually it has other effects too. For example with a normal game, mechanics that get you pointlessly killed are considered a bad thing. In roguelikes the pointless death are considered a feature because the game is "Like totally uber tough yo".

It is one of the things I was refering to when I said "constant pointless death hides flaws really well".

In IVAN I once challenged the entire fanbase to beat it fully, as there is an easy out, without any strategy that requires knowledge you need the wiki for (For example Sci-talk, the materials of high grade items, and certain exploits that you actually cannot find out) and they outright said it wasn't possible (Which makes sense for IVAN mind you, it is the most exploit ridden roguelike ever). The best roguelikes get are when everything makes sense and you immediately know what you did wrong within 2-3 tries and playing further gives you strategies that helps smooth over the early game but doesn't become a requirement to get there.

Anyhow Nenjin "Ironman" games (games designed to be ironman) tend to have a problem outside of being ironman. More that they have a problem with just being outright unfair to the players. They don't have the ability to be fun under their own power so they just super ramp the difficulty... Which works VERY WELL! I'd give examples but they would be controvercial. It is what I call the "Lazyman's Difficult Game" Syndrome. Can't make a game good? well make it hard and no one can tell the difference... Afterall it is boring BECAUSE it is so hard.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2012, 07:28:14 pm
Spoiler'd since Cult won't have these issues.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2012, 07:31:56 pm
I am saying it is a problem not that it is super pervasive.

Also I am thinking of reposting my "Magic as a technology" post. Though I guess people could have saw it but didn't have an oppinion.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 08, 2012, 07:44:47 pm
*skims back*

Neonivek, could you elaborate a bit on that? How would magic as technology differ from a separation of magic and technology, in terms of game mechanics or the general effect on the world?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2012, 08:04:13 pm
I'll elaborate a bit more on this later as I think it deserves a bit more thought.

But one of the major differences is for example: How would a talented and powerful individual from a near magicless society be different then a talented and powerful individual from a super magical society?

And what I am proposing mostly is that they would both be equally talented and equally potent. The difference however would be the resources and skills both could tap into. In a similar way that talented warriors from different societies would be just as "powerful" so to speak but would have entirely different abilities in which to tap into.

In terms of the world it would mean that magic is in it of itself a technology and thus it can be exchanged, taken, and researched. As well how a technologyless society would handle magic would be different then a advanced one (A stoneage society would not create a Academy for example almost no matter how magical they are)

So in both game mechanics and the world.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2012, 08:12:07 pm
So kind of like a combination of culture, technological advancement and magic, all thrown into the procedural mix? Where culture ultimately dictates technology level, which then dictates how magic is constructed.

That'd be cool. Kind of how like in Dominions 3 every culture has its own little system and preferences and classes of spellcasters directed at specific tasks. That's one thing that has kept me playing a lot of Dominions 3, and more than that, playing every race. Which is something I don't normally do because, hey, not every theme appeals to me. But when game play is interwoven with all the background details that make up a civilization, it's a big incentive to me to try stuff I normally wouldn't just based on the rule of cool.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Fniff on March 08, 2012, 08:32:47 pm
Wow, that would be completely awesome.

Here is a question, though. Would attempting to cross technology and magic be disastrous or a good stratagem? I know you wish to avoid the Magic Vs Technology argument, but magic and technology are different and may react badly when mixed. Would it depend on the world's laws on magic or is  the law against magic and technology mixing going to be defined in the code itself?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Karlito on March 08, 2012, 08:56:34 pm
I saw a one of your videos posted on /r/roguelikes (http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes), (odd that I'd see this on reddit before the B12 forums, but I don't check creative projects too often) and thought it looked promising. I'll be following the development from now on.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 08, 2012, 09:36:39 pm
@Karlito: Awesome, thanks for popping on in over here. This thread has pretty much been my main thinktank for Cult since I started putzing around with the idea a couple years ago. :)

As for magic and technology, those are some really interesting ideas. I like the thought of magics as a kind of acquirable technology. Although I think the natural course of events in that case would be that magical societies would mostly be stealing from other magical societies, and technocrats would be stealing from technocrats. The reason: a blueprint for a nuclear bomb won't do you much good if you don't know how to make a match. Likewise, super advanced magics wouldn't be much good for those who have no idea how to harness them effectively.

OTOH, stealing (or buying) the weapons themselves rather than the technology behind them would seem more reasonable. I could see a technologically primitive but magically adept society buying weapons or machinery from a technologically proficient culture and utilizing it that way.

Then again, there's something to be said for societies that can do some of both, a la Zeal from Chrono Trigger.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 08, 2012, 11:20:06 pm
That's actually a pretty awesome idea, Neonivek.

Would magic be like a specialized skill, though, where only those who are trained in it will reap the most benefits? Or would magic be a thing that is created and could be used elsewhere? Or both?

For example, a master magician could develop a technique that allows him to kill an enemy effectively. This knowledge can be shared, traded, or extracted (Through torture or stealing a document), but only other magicians would be able to make use of it. Societies that aren't advanced in the field of magic, or aren't magically potent, wouldn't be able to make use of this technique.

Another way of looking at magic is the sorcery route, where magic is grounded in physical items. Examples could be machinations, spells that can be cast by reading or using them, or sources of power. This would make it more akin to an actual technology, with resources and creations that even people who don't understand the underlying mechanics can use.

Of course, I'm all for going both routes. I'm just throwing ideas out there in case Lord Dullard can use them. (Or callously cast my hopes and dreams to the ground, which is perfectly fine.)


...Have we had this discussion in this forum, before? It seems familiar.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2012, 12:00:23 am
Quote
Then again, there's something to be said for societies that can do some of both, a la Zeal from Chrono Trigger.

If you can actually find a way to generate interesting magical technology of that kind, the sky is pretty much the limit.

I think you have to start by looking at the function a thing will serve and working backwards from there, because in the end magic and technology can accomplish the same thing by vastly different means. So you'd first have to ask what a thing is supposed to do, then decide whether it's magical or technological. (Or both?)  That way you end up with a time-traveling floating fortress powered by either a) cold fusion and warp drives or b) a beast built into a machine and chained by runes of mystic power.

Heh. Went from Chrono Trigger to Evangelion almost.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Antsan on March 09, 2012, 07:10:07 am
Quote
As far as characters and death, I think there'll be a few options for players. The game will default to a save/reload system, since I think most people will be choosing that. There will be a hardcore mode available with permadeath, however.

Thank you, for this. It kills me that hardcore games like DF and Dungeon Crawl refuse to add this as a legitimate option. When I started writing up design docs for games I want to make, that was one of the first bullet points I put in. I like hardcore, but I want the option. And I hate juggling save files. And sometimes, you just want to see the next bloody area without having to go into autistic mode just to survive.

I think there are a lot of great hardcore/ironman games out there that many people never bother to fully explore, because they simply don't have the will/energy to die the requisite number of times to get there. It's a real problem to me when games are so demanding by design that half of people who play them never see more than 15% of the content.
I have to disagree. Roguelikes aren't made for the content, they are made for the rules. There is no save/load in Chess, there is no save/load in Go. Both are awesome games and at least Chess barely classifies as "hardcore". The same goes for any game that isn't on the computer and resetting to an earlier state isn't only to strike balance between different players but it's also in to allow the actual rules instead of the "content" to provide some sense of challenge. With save/load any game degenerates to brute force. It's obvious with almost any FPS - take out the story (which is not part of the game) and what remains is not a challenge but a series of retries. Your skill only determines how many retries you need.

Yes, roguelike philosophy forbids save/load, but not for historical reasons only but also and foremost because roguelikes aren't literature but they're games. There is no point in winning dungeon crawl when you beat it by brute force alone and there is no reason to introduce the more complex rules to you when you haven't mastered the easier rules enough to even get to the point where they are introduced.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2012, 09:49:41 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Antsan on March 09, 2012, 10:30:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2012, 11:29:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Antsan on March 09, 2012, 12:16:38 pm
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You're still talking content and trying to make it into rules. If a Daemonspawn gets random mutations that let them do stuff, that's content. That's not the same as the game booting you out of the game and telling you to start over.
As long as something has an impact on what your choices are, it's a rule. Good games are based on rules that create meaningful choices throughout play. The mutations of demonspawns change what kind of choices you have, thus they're rules. Content is purely names, graphics, flavor text, sounds and supposed rules that don't influence how the game actually is played. Mutations are game changing, so they're rules.

Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim aren't games - they're a 3D gallery. That's fine, you can have those too. Just don't judge a game based on whether it holds your hand enough for you to experience all it's content.

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So no, it's not like asking for teleportation in chess at all. And even if it was....I'm playing myself, so the only person dictating the rules that are completely within my power to control....is me.
Well, then modify the game! No one is stopping you, it's open source! It's not like they are really "forcing it down your throat". But save/load *is* part of a games design and including it is not a negligible change.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 09, 2012, 12:30:12 pm
I suppose I am somewhat in between the two of you. There are times I enjoy permadeath (not that I actually enjoy dying and losing my character, mind - it's more that I enjoy being denied certain parts of a game's content and being forced to try harder to access them later). Sometimes, though, it annoys me or just seems gratuitous.

I think what I'd like to aim for in terms of a scale of difficulty is what you see in Gothic I and II. Very difficult if you go places you shouldn't, but with a save/reload system that allows you to take multiple tries at very tough enemies - some of whom will be tough enough that it's clear you'll need to wait until you're stronger to come back and try again, no matter what strategy you employ. Of course, I'd prefer to leave out the problem of Gothic's awful control scheme and combat glitches. But the first two games in that series came pretty close to delivering what I would consider the 'perfect' curve of difficulty that always kept you challenged, but also allowed you to go back and whomp enemies who were previously a huge problem for you. And I, for one, *hate* level scaled enemies - I'll probably try to avoid those as much as possible. I've always felt that level scaling (especially poorly implemented) takes away from the feeling of accomplishment you should get from becoming more powerful.

And again, a permadeath version will be available for those who'd like it. I know I would definitely run a character on that setting because there are times I love it.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 09, 2012, 12:39:42 pm
More options is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Fniff on March 09, 2012, 12:42:26 pm
And my opinion is that deleting saves is a really terrible idea because it locks me out of your game completely. I'd prefer for it to be an option, not enforced.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2012, 12:45:02 pm
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Well, then modify the game! No one is stopping you, it's open source! It's not like they are really "forcing it down your throat". But save/load *is* part of a games design and including it is not a negligible change.

And I've done so, by an easily done and non-prevented work around. So really all I'm asking for is them to do something that is already totally possible, for the sake of saving me some annoyance. I don't think that's asking too much of them. But people would see that as an "acceptance" of saved games....and again it's that ethical/moral design purity that prevents it from happening. Which to me is silly. It's not like I'm asking them to change philosophies entirely, like suddenly putting micro-transactions into DC or something equally bizarre.

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And again, a permadeath version will be available for those who'd like it. I know I would definitely run a character on that setting because there are times I love it.

There are times I like it too. My first 15 games in Crawl probably were hardcore. But after a certain point, probably after being slammed by a regular orc with a magic weapon and losing 95% of my life....I just want to get past the parts I have repeatedly bashed my head against for several characters. I've enjoyed them plenty under a normal experience....but when melee combat is almost totally random sometimes, from barely getting touched to getting slammed in one hit.....I don't want to play against the RNG for the rest of my natural life.
Title: Re: Cult - RT Roguelike in Development
Post by: Fniff on March 09, 2012, 02:28:03 pm
Could things potentially get violent?
old quote, but I gotta say this:

it's a game. what else do you expect?

Well, games don't always have to be violent.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 09, 2012, 07:00:01 pm
Minor news, and not code-related, but the devblog had its first 1000-view day today. :)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 09, 2012, 07:07:48 pm
Grats on the big Oh Oh Oh. Here's hoping for 10k in a month or less.

When the game is further along, I'd be more than willing to drop a hint to RPS. RPS coverage is indie game-freaking-gold.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 09, 2012, 07:44:57 pm
Well here is the thing about Roguelikes and pernament death.

Some Roguelikes use it as a crutch as I said... It is a way to say all the game's flaws are actually benefits. Even Netheck has a few of these. The worst of these are what I call "WikiRoguelikes" or rather roguelikes where unless you are insanely obsessive you HAVE to use a Wiki in order to genuinly beat the game.

When pernament death really shines is when the roguelike comes together and feels like a cohesive whole. When all the skills you have earned from playing come together and you get through it without exploits. When the game lets you know what is happening and you are just outright dying.

The First few floors of IVAN for example are an excellent example of this. After you really get the hang of the game, you will pass through these almost everytime (The game melts to crud after the Ennerbeast... the EnnerBeast is also sort of unfair). Is the game super deadly that will kill you at every turn? Yeah... but the skills you get along the way are real.

Basically since you like Chess Imagine there was a good and bad version of Chess

a Good game of chess would have around the same rules it does now

A Bad version of Chess would have it so if you don't make the best move possible... your opponent could declaire themselves the winner and flip the board. No discussion, no debate, in fact most of the time they won't even tell you. Plus every 1 in 5 games the opponent can just flip the board and say he wins for no reason.

This is why I don't really think Cult could function as a purely hardcore game. Under its philosophy it seems more then possible to randomly run into something way stronger then you are without knowing it is that strong. Heck I even question the value of even the option for a hardcore mode (Except the one that lets you play as your family members, that actually has a lot of potential)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Servant Corps on March 09, 2012, 08:42:28 pm
I don't treat Cult as a roguelike, but rather a strategy game where your avatar run a cult. I think having you play as family members fits in that theme very well (though it fits modern stereotypes of cults as opposed to mid-evil cults).
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 10, 2012, 12:24:00 am
I'd kinda hope we could make disciples.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 10, 2012, 12:36:26 am
I'd kinda hope we could make disciples.

Oddly when I heard the name of the game was "Cult" I honestly thought that this game was about getting others to worship you and to use them to your own advantage.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 10, 2012, 12:48:05 am
Well, usually you'll be recruiting them to worship another, more powerful being, actually.

Usually...
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 10, 2012, 01:47:18 am
Well, consider the Jesus. (And maybe the lilies.) He was in a way God's prophet, and he recruited a bunch of disciples. I'm hoping for something along those lines. Invest them with power, make the semi-divine, ect...
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 11, 2012, 04:50:00 pm
Don't lose a sandal, the sand is hot hot hot!

(http://cultrl.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/desert.png)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: malloc on March 11, 2012, 04:52:32 pm
WOah, that procedural sand looks hot indeed! Good job!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Ironhand on March 11, 2012, 05:29:33 pm
Holy carp, man! That's beautiful!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2012, 08:23:05 pm
God, it looks like low-res google maps shots of the desert! It's excellent! This is art in ASCII!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 11, 2012, 08:50:18 pm
That...is...fucking...amazing.

You've officially lost the right to talk down about yourself as an artist. It really reminds me of the older Sierra-esqe artwork.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 11, 2012, 09:00:24 pm
That's what I was thinking.

The Quest for Glory theme song is tickling the back of my head...
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 11, 2012, 09:22:23 pm
I was planning on starting on another biome tonight, but I'm much sleepier than I thought I'd be, so I think I'll have to conk out a bit early. I'll drag myself out of bed at 6 or so tomorrow, though, and start on something new; probably mountains/highland, since I've just finished all of the code to properly shade regional landscapes as part of getting deserts in place.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 12, 2012, 08:37:20 am
Will you ever be doing "fantasy" biomes? such as "Fire lands" (Or lava lands)?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 12, 2012, 09:10:08 am
I hadn't really considered it, actually. It's not something I'm completely opposed to.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2012, 11:25:50 am
So, could you give us a rough outline of biome making schedule?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 12, 2012, 11:51:29 am
It's a bit hard to say exactly what the schedule will look like. Right now my goal is to get about one major biome done per day and have some screenshots of it to post, but that's not always easily accomplishable. And for some of the 'easier' biomes that end up mostly being copy-paste scenarios, I may be able to get more than that.

What I do know is that I want to get all (or at least most) of them finished by the end of March. That may not be doable, because after I finish major biomes, I have to add sub-biomes - rivers, ponds, caves, etc. Rivers (and oceans, naturally) will also probably be a headache for me, and once I tackle those I'll probably be doing some additional work on making water more... well... fluid (and interesting to look at and play with).

After that, I'm going to tackle the building system. I have some REALLY cool ideas about that (or I think so, anyway), and I have a notion that some of the stuff I'm planning on adding will be pretty exciting. I don't want to say too much about that yet, though, because I'd rather show it off through video once it's done - it'll be easier to understand and also much more interesting that way. Building will be in before combat, mostly because it will allow testers a lot more stuff to do, although combat should hopefully follow it pretty closely.

ETA:
Here are some highlands. Rocky outcroppings have received a facelift, as you can see - they were way too red and earthy looking before, and not shaded quite the way I wanted them to be.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: shadenight123 on March 13, 2012, 10:14:20 am
marvelous!
now the only problem is the @ used XD
i suspect if you ever go on to do biomes like *volcanoes* and the like, a red @ is going to be difficult to see.
Maybe use a changeable color for some biomes? like dark blue for light areas like the desert?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Mephansteras on March 13, 2012, 12:09:14 pm
Impressive looking! I've never seen a roguelike with this level of easily visible detail.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2012, 09:45:48 am
Which does sort of make shadenight's point....the @ really seems out of place now :P
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 14, 2012, 10:07:00 am
Which does sort of make shadenight's point....the @ really seems out of place now :P

Yeah but given the flexibility of what that @ could be (many species to chose from) it being replaced may take a while

Well unless it is replaced with a placeholder that looks nicer.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 14, 2012, 11:54:44 am
Which does sort of make shadenight's point....the @ really seems out of place now :P

Yeah but given the flexibility of what that @ could be (many species to chose from) it being replaced may take a while

Well unless it is replaced with a placeholder that looks nicer.

Yeah, basically, this.

Eventually, it will be replaced. For now, though, the @ is the most recognizable symbol for roguelike junkies, which will make it less confusing than anything else I could potentially use instead. I could make a generic little 'person' tile for it, but then... who says the characters you'll be playing will typically have two arms, two legs, and one head?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 14, 2012, 01:17:41 pm
I don't think it's particularly pressing, but it may not be a bad start if you plan on switching to tiles eventually anyways. I know there's a number of pixel artists around here that could help with non-standard stuff. Anything that falls into the category of "doesn't have a tile" can default to the @ symbol.

I recall having a discussion about using 'parts' to create tiles, but that seems a fair ways down the road. Having tile support now means that people are making more custom tile sets, which gives you more stuff to put in the game (If you're not against using community made content).

But like I said, I don't think it's particularly pressing.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lap on March 14, 2012, 02:08:15 pm
I strongly approve of this project resurrection!

Even though you have the most beautiful ASCII of any game I have ever seen I'd still suggest doing tile support earlier rather than later. Easier to code as long as you think about it early. The mobs will eventually need their tiles!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2012, 07:23:23 pm
Hi Lap!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 15, 2012, 05:52:37 pm
Today I was looking at the regional shading algorithm I'd made up for deserts/highlands and realized it was just plain better than the one I'd had in place previously for all other types of terrain that need shading. The results of switching it over to the world map:

Spoiler: Before: (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: After: (click to show/hide)

ETA:
I think I may put terrain diversification on hold for a bit while I work on the building system. The reason? I can't stop thinking about the damned thing, and I'm afraid some of my ideas for it might slip out of focus if I wait too long. At any rate, getting it into a workable state will allow something much closer to 'play-testing', which is a boon.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 15, 2012, 06:24:05 pm
Is the second a more accurate representation of the topographical layout of the world? Because it looks very hilly now whereas the first implied lots of wide open plains.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 15, 2012, 06:34:39 pm
Is the second a more accurate representation of the topographical layout of the world? Because it looks very hilly now whereas the first implied lots of wide open plains.

Yep. Essentially the only thing being shaded prior to this change were the mountains themselves, and those rather primitively; now all terrain is shaded, although most of it is shaded less drastically than mountains, given the fact that the incline in elevation isn't as sharp. There are still plenty of plains, though - I'll post a zoomed-in map in a moment to give you an example of what I mean.

Here we go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on March 15, 2012, 08:15:11 pm
Splendid!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: magikmw on March 16, 2012, 09:02:32 am
Posting to watch, this looks very promising!
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 19, 2012, 11:13:50 am
Currently trying to wrap my brain around the new Python multiprocessing module.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Nistenf on March 26, 2012, 12:31:49 am
This is beautiful. Will it be open source?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on March 26, 2012, 11:57:50 am
No, I think not. Honestly, you probably wouldn't want to look at my code, anyway.  ;D I suspect by the time Cult is close to completion it might have the same sort of sanity-draining effect as browsing the Necronomicon. That said, I think one day when I'm a little less busy I'll do a series of tutorials for Python/libTCOD.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Fniff on March 26, 2012, 12:14:48 pm
Ah, not exactly the same.

Man reading necronomicon: Aaaaaagh!
Man reading Cult source: Wow. I mean... wow. I think I'm blind now.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on March 27, 2012, 03:46:23 pm
No, I think not. Honestly, you probably wouldn't want to look at my code, anyway.  ;D I suspect by the time Cult is close to completion it might have the same sort of sanity-draining effect as browsing the Necronomicon. That said, I think one day when I'm a little less busy I'll do a series of tutorials for Python/libTCOD.

And we arn't even on the gameplay features yet... like Spirits (which may or may not actually make the cut) or magic (assuming that will be randomised)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Vesperum on April 07, 2012, 01:56:12 pm
I fell in love with this project the moment I set eyes on it, and I will be thoroughly impressed and happy when it's finally done.  However, I do have a couple of questions regarding certain aspects of the game.

1 - Will we be able to have control over the generation of certain aspects of our worlds?  What I am asking is, will we be able to, for example: add humans into the world or create our own races altogether?  I remember in your preview videos you mentioned that humans and other high fantasy races might have to be modded in, but could it be possible to give the player the option of developing certain species to their specifications?  I would love to see this feature because I would be able to guide the development of the world to suit my play-style.  As much as I love alien worlds and what-not, I also would like the option to make that world have that touch of familiarity, so that I may feel more connected to the world.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about coding, but, hopefully, a feature such as this wouldn't be too hard to implement.

2 - How will you handle aspects regarding magical elements? Will spells or magical practices also be procedurally generated? Will certain things like alchemy be present in each world, or will these aspects also be procedurally generated?  Also, will the game procedurally generate magical symbols, if you add such things at all?  I am rather curious about this, because I am always a mage when I play fantasy games :P

3 - How will the ethics, laws, architecture, etc. be handled in civilizations?  I would assume that the customs of each civilization will be procedurally generated, but what about architecture? Will each civilization use pre-made architecture, or will it be procedurally generated? If it is the latter, how will these buildings look in-game?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 07, 2012, 03:20:54 pm
I fell in love with this project the moment I set eyes on it, and I will be thoroughly impressed and happy when it's finally done.  However, I do have a couple of questions regarding certain aspects of the game.

1 - Will we be able to have control over the generation of certain aspects of our worlds?  What I am asking is, will we be able to, for example: add humans into the world or create our own races altogether?  I remember in your preview videos you mentioned that humans and other high fantasy races might have to be modded in, but could it be possible to give the player the option of developing certain species to their specifications?  I would love to see this feature because I would be able to guide the development of the world to suit my play-style.  As much as I love alien worlds and what-not, I also would like the option to make that world have that touch of familiarity, so that I may feel more connected to the world.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about coding, but, hopefully, a feature such as this wouldn't be too hard to implement.

I intend for the player to be able to do these sorts of things, yes. I'm not *EXACTLY* sure how I'll implement that yet, mostly because there are still some big segments of history and creature generation that need to be built upon once the game engine is looking more sturdy, but I'd like for people to be able to insert premade races and such with relative ease (probably just by copy-pasting some definition files, many of which I'll include as optional material for people who want it).

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2 - How will you handle aspects regarding magical elements? Will spells or magical practices also be procedurally generated? Will certain things like alchemy be present in each world, or will these aspects also be procedurally generated?  Also, will the game procedurally generate magical symbols, if you add such things at all?  I am rather curious about this, because I am always a mage when I play fantasy games :P

I think spells and magic will be more akin to those in Morrowind. The 'stock' spells will be procedurally generated, but a trained mage character will be able to create their own customized spells via some kind of spellmaking interface. Spells/abilities gained through the worship of a deity, on the other hand, will all be completely procedurally generated, and will probably not be customizable in the same way magic is (although they may well be very potent in comparison with most types of 'normal' magic).

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3 - How will the ethics, laws, architecture, etc. be handled in civilizations?  I would assume that the customs of each civilization will be procedurally generated, but what about architecture? Will each civilization use pre-made architecture, or will it be procedurally generated? If it is the latter, how will these buildings look in-game?

All procedural, eventually, yes. I had already considered procedural architecture to be one of my goals, and I have quite a few thoughts on how I want to implement that. I don't really want to say too much yet, though - mostly because I would enjoy showing off the results tangibly with a video or images much more than writing about the concepts here and spoiling them.

I will give away one small spoiler just for the sake of teasing, however: if you see a procedurally generated architectural design you like, you'll be able to copy it directly as a blueprint into the building system and replicate it with just a few clicks wherever you'd like to build.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: MorleyDev on April 07, 2012, 04:34:19 pm
The Necronomicon just makes you realise "Well, reality is screwed. I may as well be the one to screw it!". I imagine the source for this will be more like the Lost Ark...
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2012, 03:01:48 pm
Currently designing the inventory system. Deciding on a suitable layout for the damned thing is much more difficult than I thought it'd be.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2012, 03:49:18 pm
Currently designing the inventory system. Deciding on a suitable layout for the damned thing is much more difficult than I thought it'd be.

There is a reason why a lot of people give up and just outright copy.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2012, 04:16:34 pm
I'll admit I google image-searched 'inventory screen' just to get some ideas. Frankly, though, I didn't find much that I considered helpful. Most inventory screens are designed for games with different graphical capabilities than Cult, and the one for text-based roguelikes tend to be very barebones.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Epithemius on April 16, 2012, 06:27:02 pm
What about a Diablo 3-type system? Here's a link with a bit more details on that one: http://www.diablowiki.net/Inventory It's probably one of the better approaches I've seen to an inventory.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on April 16, 2012, 06:36:05 pm
Diablo 3's inventory is the kind of inventory system he can't use with Cult, not without some serious work.

Consider Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. It's basically DF's inventory system, but it makes some assumptions.

-Functional Inventories will be small, and not quantum.

-Inventories have a maximum cap.

It's hard for me to shake off the fuzz of Today's designs when it comes to rogue-likes, but the problem with his is that it just gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger, especially as you start finding exceptions to getting stuff put in bags. It also does a poor job of sorting and categorizing things.

Reducing it down to a much simpler system (Say 25 slots average, 40 slots max) has the benefit of both being simple to conceptualize and forcing some decision making on the player. Which DF really only accomplishes through bag size restrictions.

I don't recall you talking much about the inventory system up until now, are you wanting to do something novel there?

And as long as we're on the topic, where does Cult stand on mouse support, either currently or in the grand scheme?
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on April 16, 2012, 06:41:23 pm
-containers as equipable objects: bags that can be held in either hand, backpacks that can be worn on the torso, pouches that can be hung on the belt, weapon scabbards, quivers, etc.

-containers would have a maximum volume and a maximum length and items would have a volume and a length, so you could fit a stack of pebbles several times the volume of a spear inside a backpack, but you couldn't fit single spear. soft containers would increase in volume and take the lenght of the longest item they contain, so you could fit an empty bag inside a bag, but not a full bag inside a full bag.

-large items could be strapped and hung on the shoulder

-depending on whether you want to make the game turn based or real time, each of these containers would use a different number of ticks to access from a collapsible tree list, or some containers could be accessed from quickslots while others would have to be accessed from a slightly more cumbersome inventory screen

-pack beasts

E: theres's the fact though that non humanoid, procedurally assembled body shapes crank up the complexity of this type of system by a few degrees of magnitude
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2012, 06:53:37 pm
I don't recall you talking much about the inventory system up until now, are you wanting to do something novel there?

I'm not really looking to do anything groundbreaking - just to put something together that's relatively easy-to-use and understand, and that doesn't create any terrible sense of 'going through my inventory is a chore' for the player. I do like the idea of using bags to expand the inventory to some degree, and agree that it probably shouldn't be able to add on TOO much inventory space. I may also consider weight restrictions.

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And as long as we're on the topic, where does Cult stand on mouse support, either currently or in the grand scheme?

As it stands, the game can be run by the mouse alone, or the keyboard alone, or any combination of the two.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on April 16, 2012, 07:10:09 pm
I assume click-drag functionality is a whole 'nother thing though, right?

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I do like the idea of using bags to expand the inventory to some degree, and agree that it probably shouldn't be able to add on TOO much inventory space. I may also consider weight restrictions.

DC:SS does weight restrictions which seem to balance out pretty well against the max inventory size. And conceptually, an inventory item which when placed in your inventory expands the size of your inventory seems pretty easy and game appropriate. It's just abstracting away questions of what ultimately goes where. Which is fine by mean, inventory management definitely has a threshold of fun for me.

The only funky part would what happens to items in slots created by a bag when you take the bag out of your inventory.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on April 16, 2012, 07:13:20 pm
derp, why did i double post.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2012, 07:29:08 pm
I assume click-drag functionality is a whole 'nother thing though, right?

Nope - click-drag will also be supported for at least several types of menus/dialogues. You'll also be click-dragging to specify building dimensions (unless you use the keyboard) in addition to the fact that you can already click-drag the map around. Also, I don't think I've ever used the phrase 'click-drag' so much.

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The only funky part would what happens to items in slots created by a bag when you take the bag out of your inventory.

I was considering a WoW-type bag system (I know I may be tarred and feathered for saying this, but I actually didn't mind the inventory system in WoW too much) in terms of presentation - i.e., each bag up to a limited number has its own small dialogue window. Dropping a bag could simply mean dropping its contents.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: nenjin on April 16, 2012, 07:55:04 pm
Oh ok. I think I see what you're thinking at now.

I guess it does save the presentation from looking like DF's rolling lists of stuff in tabulated fashion. So you'd click a line item in a list to open a bag dialog window, or are you thinking of icons and and a grid inventory? If you're still basically running on text, I think the benefit of having bags essentially hide their content is somewhat diminished. To me that sort of seems like "one more screen" despite it being a dialog box. If you want to go graphical icons and representations, then I think the case for separate bag dialog boxes is a lot stronger.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2012, 08:04:30 pm
I just hope there is some sort of organisation and visual representation of some type for your inventory.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Willfor on April 16, 2012, 08:11:27 pm
I made a fairly nice inventory using libtcod and highlight-able items/click-to-move interfaces. The red dot in the following images is where my mouse pointer was.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unfortunately, there are still bugs with it. And it's from a project I haven't touched in ... well, possibly a year. I'll probably reuse some of its code later on. Also, I'm a fairly big fan of WoW's way of dealing with inventories. Its inventory wasn't a factor in my decision to stop playing it at all.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2012, 09:45:45 pm
Well one issue is we don't know how many bodyparts the main character may end up having.

To admit I am quite interested in armor HUMANS DON'T USE!... I always find it odd when creatures like Ratmen leave their tails entirely unprotected even if they are dressed entirely head to toe with 5 inch steel.

Heck in Captain Planet I remember how the Monkey's snowsuit actually left his tail exposed... and they go to the North pole.

Maybe be interesting to see Tail guards and Wing Guards (mind you they would probably stop you from flying, but that is what you pay for when you armor your wings). Heck even Wing and Tail clothes for once.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 16, 2012, 09:53:10 pm
Wing and Tail clothes seem like logical enough additions. Although I think for creatures that use their tails for balance, any kind of heavy armor on the tail might come with some big agility penalties - probably better to stick to light stuff that allows freedom of movement.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 16, 2012, 10:05:55 pm
There is also always the idea of enhancing natural weapons with real weapons.

Though... Even humans don't do it that much outside our hands.

This is starting to remind me of Lands of Lore a lot... in it there is this huge monster race guy you get on your team, he has four arms so you can equip him with two quarterstaffs. He isn't even a warrior he is actually a magician, he is just so naturally strong (and having four arms helps) that he will pretty much pummel all but the strongest characters at that point.

Kinda makes me wonder if any of the standard civilisation races can actually have a genuin supperiority over others. Which I don't mind in a game like this. Though that makes me wonder what role the actual creature has on the balance of the game. Is it just mild adjustments, huge difference, huge difference that melts away with experience?

Yes I know what I will do, I will gather the world's magic to alter my character's body to become a titan! (ok not really)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Servant Corps on April 17, 2012, 11:15:49 am
Since you play as a human, the only purpose of tail/wing accessories is for you to sell them for money (preferably right back to the monkeys/birds that you killed to get them in the first place), right?

That'd be kinda cool, a useless trade good that does serve a purpose in-game, just not to you.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 17, 2012, 12:08:26 pm
You won't be playing as a human unless you mod humans into the game (as previously mentioned, I'll probably distribute the proper mod files for those who aren't willing to break from generic fantasy races, including humans).
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 17, 2012, 04:40:41 pm
Dang law of next page ignorance! my post is ruined!

Anyhow... my question was really how much of a difference will your body, as a race, be?

The other was just me trying to subtly ask if there was cool stuff you could do with magic in the aspect of transforming your character.

The last was a very obvious suggestion of weapons that attach to parts that include natural weapons. Like a blade attached to a tail meant to attack (like a Scorpian tail).

Wow, my vow not to suggestion swarm is starting to melt away.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 17, 2012, 05:40:31 pm
Nah, that's fine - I like having all of these ideas to come back to later. Magical transformation of your character will probably definitely be in the game - if I'm going to bother to put all the code in place for handling multiple limb types and body configurations, it seems sensible to allow (some kinds of) magic to alter those configurations.

As far as 'how much will body types vary?', the answer to that is A LOT.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Neonivek on April 17, 2012, 08:21:15 pm
I meant more in... How much of a difference will it have on gameplay?

Though I should probably look back at the body configurations.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 18, 2012, 03:16:30 pm
Different body types will have a significant effect on gameplay, although it depends on the type of character you want to build, of course. I can elaborate on specifics, but I have yet to truly flesh out some of those game mechanics yet, since there's still more work to be done (and variety to be added) to the creature generator.

I wanted to toss this up quickly - a while back I mentioned that I was working on shading on the world map. I finished it up and also updated the algorithms for regional maps, but I figured I'd post an example of the final product here while I'm still working on the building system:

Spoiler: World Screenshot (click to show/hide)

In comparison, this was the old style of shading:
Spoiler: Old Worldgen (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Korbac on April 18, 2012, 07:12:41 pm
PIMPING!  :D
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: EagleV on April 19, 2012, 02:49:41 am
That looks great. So great that I'll forgive you for letting me wait so long between updates :p

For the record: I'm kidding, you should take as long as you want/need.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Knight of Fools on April 19, 2012, 11:46:45 am
Yeah... It really bugged me that the sun was off to the West instead of the East. :3


Seriously, though. Looks good. I'm kind of surprised you can go into so much detail on a single aspect of the game without burning yourself out.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Vesperum on April 21, 2012, 11:32:01 am
When do you plan on releasing your next tech demo? I would very much like to experience the progress you've made so far for myself.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on April 21, 2012, 04:28:29 pm
After the building engine is done, so that when the Kickstarter campaign goes live there will at least be a sandbox functionality that people can play around with.
Title: Re: Cult - Development Preview Videos Added
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 10, 2012, 04:18:53 pm
New video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OpQPuOc5hg

Putting up a bunch of screenshots tonight. Currently working on the building system and HOPING to have it done prior to the end of the month. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Fniff on May 10, 2012, 04:43:49 pm
Well, this is going to be really great. I can't wait for the sandbox!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mephansteras on May 11, 2012, 11:40:02 am
Are you going to make Mining a much slower process than forestry? People tend not to make rock buildings if they need a shelter in a hurry because doing any appreciable mining takes forever. Although I guess having loose rocks in some areas would make sense.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 11, 2012, 11:49:22 am
Indeed, if you watch the video, mining not only takes a bit longer, it also produces one third to one fifth of the raw material (depending on the size of the tree) as forestry. I may exaggerate the difference even more eventually, but that's what I'm starting with for now.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: nenjin on May 11, 2012, 11:53:59 am
While bearing in mind the pre-alpha nature of the build....

Something more visible than the organe-ish dot for the player would help. You can barely make out the player amidst all the glorious terrain.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mephansteras on May 11, 2012, 12:10:28 pm
Indeed, if you watch the video, mining not only takes a bit longer, it also produces one third to one fifth of the raw material (depending on the size of the tree) as forestry. I may exaggerate the difference even more eventually, but that's what I'm starting with for now.

Ah, didn't notice the difference in material gained. That should make a big difference!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Vesperum on May 11, 2012, 05:33:11 pm
After watching your recent video, I was very impressed with where this project is going and how quickly it's expanding.  Also, I was digging around on YouTube and found a RL in development that has an engine very similar to yours.  Hopefully, there will be more future Roguelikes that adopt this visually appealing style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRwRudGpnR8&feature=BFa&list=UUdiQ5bQJATpW6ydwpoz-YPg

Now I have another RL to look forward to  :P
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 12, 2012, 12:58:15 am
After watching your recent video, I was very impressed with where this project is going and how quickly it's expanding.  Also, I was digging around on YouTube and found a RL in development that has an engine very similar to yours.  Hopefully, there will be more future Roguelikes that adopt this visually appealing style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRwRudGpnR8&feature=BFa&list=UUdiQ5bQJATpW6ydwpoz-YPg

Now I have another RL to look forward to  :P

Then I guess I will be seeing a duel between gameplay. That is something that no trick can deter my judgement.

Though given I am a harsh critic... maybe I shouldn't.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 16, 2012, 10:01:33 am
While bearing in mind the pre-alpha nature of the build....

Something more visible than the organe-ish dot for the player would help. You can barely make out the player amidst all the glorious terrain.

Well, I think I now know how to convert between Pygame SDL surfaces (which the Python version of libTCOD needs to draw SDL graphics) and normal SDL surfaces, which means true tile graphics are possible in the future. I guess if other people agree about having difficulty seeing the '@' I could try changing it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to do so in the ASCII version of the game. For one, the '@' is already the most recognizable character for roguelike players. Plus, unless I make the PC take up multiple tiles (which would be a bit weird), it's not going to get any larger than 10x10 anyhow. Unfortunately libTCOD's drawing capabilities, barring SDL intervention, are limited to monochromatic characters.

At any rate, I do agree with you that I'd eventually like something better. But tile graphics should solve that problem.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: nenjin on May 16, 2012, 04:26:42 pm
Yeah, I can see where at 10x10, it's almost not worth the effort to worry about it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Clownmite on May 16, 2012, 05:18:24 pm
Hey Lord Dullard, I've been following this project for a long time and I'm just chiming in to say it looks amazing. Regarding the player's @ symbol, I'm also having a hard time seeing it. I think it would help if you made the character darker, like libtcod.dark_red or thereabouts.

A silly question - how do you shade your mountains/terrain? Just cast a ray from one side of the map to another, and lighten the terrain color if tile X is lower than tile X+1, and darken if tile X is higher than tiler X+1?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 16, 2012, 06:39:04 pm
Hey Lord Dullard, I've been following this project for a long time and I'm just chiming in to say it looks amazing. Regarding the player's @ symbol, I'm also having a hard time seeing it. I think it would help if you made the character darker, like libtcod.dark_red or thereabouts.

A silly question - how do you shade your mountains/terrain? Just cast a ray from one side of the map to another, and lighten the terrain color if tile X is lower than tile X+1, and darken if tile X is higher than tiler X+1?

Thanks! I will try darkening the @ - that never occurred to me, but I'll see if it makes a difference.

As for shading, that's the basic idea. I start out by taking a list of all the tiles in 3-tile radius from the one I'm shading, then I add a fraction of shading for each tile higher than the one being shaded in (for instance) the upper-right quadrant. This algorithm also allows for easy 'dynamic' shadows if you want to redraw them on a regular basis to simulate the passage of time; all you have to change are which tiles are contributing to the level of shadow.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 17, 2012, 12:58:52 am
I wish that guy who made IVAN would just reveal his secrets already.

Even today I hear people cannot replicate the splotches he made (Blood, acid, water, rust, and even firey and holy). It is something interesting for future graphics.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 17, 2012, 03:50:53 am
I wish that guy who made IVAN would just reveal his secrets already.

Even today I hear people cannot replicate the splotches he made (Blood, acid, water, rust, and even firey and holy). It is something interesting for future graphics.

Goddamnit IVAN was incredible. Are there still some groups of modders/programmers making alternate versions? I remember I tried one a few years back that was a bit buggy but expanded on it quite a bit.

Also, Dullard, your project looks great. I've been eyeing your work since you've posted this, really. It looks great so far and your work pace is pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on May 17, 2012, 02:37:06 pm
I wish that guy who made IVAN would just reveal his secrets already.

Even today I hear people cannot replicate the splotches he made (Blood, acid, water, rust, and even firey and holy). It is something interesting for future graphics.

Goddamnit IVAN was incredible. Are there still some groups of modders/programmers making alternate versions? I remember I tried one a few years back that was a bit buggy but expanded on it quite a bit.

Also, Dullard, your project looks great. I've been eyeing your work since you've posted this, really. It looks great so far and your work pace is pretty impressive.

The most recent news on IVAN (if there is any) is mostly on the attnam forum (http://www.attnam.com/forum/). There are a few spinoffs there you might want to try as well.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 29, 2012, 01:03:50 pm
The construction system is finally nearing completion (whew!). It'll feel good to have that milestone behind me so I can move on to more context-heavy stuff, like adding the rest of the biomes.

I'm planning on launching the Kickstarter within the next week or so, and obviously I'll post updates on that.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2012, 08:43:39 pm
Quote
The most recent news on IVAN (if there is any) is mostly on the attnam forum. There are a few spinoffs there you might want to try as well.

Not really. There are IVAN mods not spin offs and the vast majority of them just add areas to the game.

Quote
I'm planning on launching the Kickstarter within the next week or so, and obviously I'll post updates on that

Unfortunately I cannot support you through cash, but I wish you the best of luck.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on May 30, 2012, 03:24:11 am
I can't wait to see a construction demo!

Unfortunately, I do not have a credit card. So leave that donate button on your site for just a little longer please.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 30, 2012, 07:23:01 am
@Neonivek: Totally understand! I've donated to a few Kickstarters myself, but believe me, if I were able to donate to every project that I thought looked cool, it would be dozens rather than a few.  ::)

@EagleV: Thanks, will do!

I also wanted to mention that Shook has very generously agreed to allow the use of his AWESOME pixel art (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92247.0) for the Kickstarter project!  :D I think the retro-style pixel art will really go hand-in-hand with Cult's aesthetic sensibilities. He's already put together one very cool picture just for the game/project, and I'm going to be using some of his prior work as well, because it's already a good match. Naturally, I'm really hoping to get this Kickstarter off the ground so that I can bribe encourage both him and Sentientdeth to keep making awesome art and music.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Servant Corps on May 30, 2012, 03:37:38 pm
Just make sure the money you asking is very low initially, and your rewards very cheap to provide (make them as virtual as possible). I am honestly hopeful for this project, but I am less hopeful that the kickstarter will make it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 30, 2012, 04:05:14 pm
Well, we'll see what happens. It won't be the end of the world if it doesn't succeed, it'll just mean I'll have to put this into the background again. But hey, Dwarf Fortress was developed 'in the background' for quite a while as well, IIRC, so it's not a huge deal.

At any rate, anybody who can't contribute financially but wants to help out - just spread the word somehow. Reddit, facebook, external forums you're a member of, etc - all are more helpful than you realize. One link can do *wonders* for a project like this, so please don't hesitate if you feel even a bit enthusiastic about the game.  :P
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Shook on May 30, 2012, 07:48:59 pm
Also, official confirmation that permission has been given. I'm just ecstatic about Dullard considering my pixely stuff good enough to use for something of this scale. c:
I'm hoping the best for all of this, it's quite a project you've got going!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2012, 12:56:52 am
Here is my suggestion for rewards

Do not include anything that requires mail. These can quickly eat up your time and money (unless I guess you really don't mind, but I've heard of projects that actually lost 1/4th of their actual earnings and had to spend a lot of dedicated time to the mail)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: mendonca on May 31, 2012, 02:04:51 am
I'm no expert, but I can imagine 'real' rewards can also entice people to contribute in the first place. I suppose you need to be sure that you can get your money's worth out of anything with a high overhead for time / mail / cost to produce.

Good luck with this, I will be contributing and I'll try and coax others to do so.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2012, 02:23:40 am
I'm no expert, but I can imagine 'real' rewards can also entice people to contribute in the first place. I suppose you need to be sure that you can get your money's worth out of anything with a high overhead for time / mail / cost to produce.

Good luck with this, I will be contributing and I'll try and coax others to do so.

Well then at least be careful with rewards. You can easily forget how much time and money something as simple as a letter can be.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on May 31, 2012, 06:59:49 am
Something that is cheap for you to do and people tend to like is in-game references to them or to something they choose. Say, for instance, for €10 their name (or nick) gets in the world gen name list, for €20 they get to create a spell effect, for €50 they may create a race that may appear in the non-random races mode you talked about earlier. Extremely silly or in-game impossible entries would be denied and the people affected would be allowed to come up with something more serious, if necessary in cooperation with you, or something like that.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 31, 2012, 08:47:20 am
Something that is cheap for you to do and people tend to like is in-game references to them or to something they choose. Say, for instance, for €10 their name (or nick) gets in the world gen name list, for €20 they get to create a spell effect, for €50 they may create a race that may appear in the non-random races mode you talked about earlier. Extremely silly or in-game impossible entries would be denied and the people affected would be allowed to come up with something more serious, if necessary in cooperation with you, or something like that.

Yep, this is already part of the Kickstarter - every donor level (even $1) will get an in-game insertion as a randomly generated NPC, starting out as a peasant and moving up to a ruler or god at higher donation levels. At $100 you'll be able to 'design' your own civilization by filling out a set of parameters I'll send. I did try to keep rewards as virtual as possible, and the only one I'm considering that's not a virtual reward is turning some of Shook's images into posters (especially since he's designing a couple of images just for Cult). Those would be at something like a $50/minimum donation level though, and probably only to the continental US. My only worry is calculating all of the costs for mailing tubes and shipping, but I think it could be worth to include at least one 'real' reward, in case people are really set on getting a physical object. It would also be a way for me to toss some of the income generated from those rewards directly to him.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Briggsy16 on May 31, 2012, 09:57:43 am
Been following this keenly, I for one will be giving an amount through kickstarter.

Keep it up mate
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on May 31, 2012, 02:18:46 pm
So if I donate trough the site instead of kickstarter, would I still get a reward? Don't worry, I won't not donate if I don't get anything :p
Also, you make me sad that I don't have $100 to spare.
Also˛, I just found out I've lost my card thingy. However you call it. Not a credit card, but you put it in the ATM, punch a few buttons, and get money. Anyway, I lost it, and I'll have to wait for a new one before I can donate. It'll take a few days at least, sorry for the delay.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 31, 2012, 02:30:47 pm
So if I donate trough the site instead of kickstarter, would I still get a reward? Don't worry, I won't not donate if I don't get anything :p
Also, you make me sad that I don't have $100 to spare.
Also˛, I just found out I've lost my card thingy. However you call it. Not a credit card, but you put it in the ATM, punch a few buttons, and get money. Anyway, I lost it, and I'll have to wait for a new one before I can donate. It'll take a few days at least, sorry for the delay.

No problem! Yes, I can definitely still offer you rewards via normal donations.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 31, 2012, 04:13:51 pm
Did I mention that Shook's art is freakin' fantastic? Here's one of the images that'll be included in the project:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2012, 08:34:40 pm
Quote
No problem! Yes, I can definitely still offer you rewards via normal donations

Odd I thought Kickstarter actually strictly prohibits such.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on May 31, 2012, 09:09:08 pm
I've seen quite a few projects honor donations outside of Kickstarter. Here's one I got through a quick google search, and I also saw another (ongoing, I think) one like it today which allowed donations via paypal for those who can't use the Amazon service:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/azac/fund-the-new-clothing-collection-by-azraels-accomp/posts/191766

If I find it in the rules somewhere that it's strictly verboten I'll reconsider, but frankly, most of my rewards are virtual anyway, and Kickstarter can hardly prevent me from giving the same stuff out directly after the project ends if I say it has nothing to do with the Kickstarter. ;P I would imagine they say it's forbidden because they don't want their cut of the funds to be reduced, but I've been giving virtual rewards away for donations since I first put the button up. Can't see that it makes much difference.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 01, 2012, 11:34:58 pm
Well, the Kickstarter is all ready to go... I'm just waiting for Amazon Payments to verify my account.  :-\ I actually already *have* an account, but it was used for mechanical turk, and Amazon was freaking out whenever I tried to use it. Doing a LOT of Google-diving revealed that evidently Amazon is stupid and has failed to properly set up older payments accounts that were set up for use with the turk, so the recommendation was 'make a new account'. Yay, Amazon.

Hopefully they'll get around to it tomorrow, since I was planning on launching by tonight/today.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: bertix on June 03, 2012, 06:36:34 am
So where is the kickstarter at ?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 06:48:24 am
It's all ready to go, but I'm waiting for Amazon Payments to finish its review process. I had to start a new account because my old one, which I created a long time ago, is apparently old enough that it is some kind of anomaly in their server and will not function properly for the purposes of the Kickstarter application that relies on Amazon. Rather than just update my account, their suggestion was 'make a new one'. Yay, Amazon.

They say the review process generally takes under 48 business hours, but I'm going to call them first thing tomorrow morning to see if they can expedite it, seeing as how they're making it impossible to use my already-set-up account.

In the meantime, I'm getting the construction/building system fleshed out. There's a teaser of it in the Kickstarter video, but I'm also going to try and put out an update with a fully functioning version relatively soon.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 09:37:10 pm
Just checked some of the newer development logs and I just realised that the full name of the game is Cult: Rise of the Old Gods (or something along those lines).

Rather interesting name since it can refer to either the Lovecraftian gods or the Primoreals/Titans.

Which for me is only so far interesting in that... gods tend to be REALLY REALLY passive... But this COULD be different... though I don't have mind reading powers.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 09:40:26 pm
Okay - Amazon has cleared my (new) account, and I'm now just waiting on Kickstarter to move the project through their queue and launch it. I have a preview link to share with anyone who'd like to check it out, though:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dhagar/1066891227?token=fad69742

Addendum: I'm uploading an HD version of the video to YouTube now. The one I uploaded to Kickstarter was actually 1080p, but unfortunately they process it into oblivion, so I'll just be including a link at the top of the project page leading to the YouTube video for those who want to watch in HD.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 10:04:08 pm
Okay - Amazon has cleared my (new) account, and I'm now just waiting on Kickstarter to move the project through their queue and launch it. I have a preview link to share with anyone who'd like to check it out, though:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dhagar/1066891227?token=fad69742

Good move removing the full suit in your intro video. It looked terrible on you in the previous one if my memory is correct.

Also... wow it is involving Cthonian-esk gods.

Anyhow this is probably one of the most tempting Kickstarters I ever felt almost obligated to offer funds to but cannot (the other was Grandroids). I don't know what it is about your project Dullard that makes me so attracted to it. Though the fact that you have never treated me as anything but worth your time (even when I was being difficult or critical) probably helped me personally.

If I succeed at getting a job in June I will definately try to donate (but honestly, that is a herculean feat in it of itself).

Also here is a question: Does Everything above mean that... for example if you donate 50 dollars that you get to create a mercinary, spirit, lowly peasant, AND mayor? (actually it just said appearance. So I can only guess it means your name is entered in the randomised name section)

Actually when I think about it, it isn't exactly clear what some of the rewards actually do.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 10:12:36 pm
Hey, I totally understand. As I've mentioned before, there have been plenty of projects I wanted to donate to, but it simply wasn't possible for me. Besides, critical input is important; if I didn't have people offering suggestions Cult would probably still look like it did back when the world was formed out of incoherent solid blobs in the first couple of screenshots.

As for the rewards, the self-insertions are a one-shot (so no, you won't get a bunch of different characters; just one, with higher ranks in accordance with higher donation levels). Of course if you would prefer to be a mercenary rather than a king, or something like that, I'd be happy to switch it out (just not a higher-tier type for a lower one).
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 10:14:56 pm
Well I meant more like... If you get the King. Do you just give that king a name or is there more to it?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 10:19:46 pm
Well I meant more like... If you get the King. Do you just give that king a name or is there more to it?

Name, appearance, personality traits, skills (within reason), and various other things depending on the character type (i.e., for gods, you will decide what sphere(s) they are related to). I may write up a post elaborating on it and stick it in there as an FAQ or an update, if it seems eminently sensible to do so, but since the character inserts are really more of a 'everybody gets this cool bonus just for donating' type of thing, I'm waiting to see how much interest there is in them before I set any uber-concrete rules.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 10:21:32 pm
There is no god allowance in there. (though it is possible through civ creation)

Well that I can see. I can only guess that was supposed to be part of your $70 dollar backing.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 10:30:11 pm
There is no god allowance in there. (though it is possible through civ creation)

Well that I can see. I can only guess that was supposed to be part of your $70 dollar backing.

Great catch! Thank you. I fixed that right away.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 10:30:53 pm
There is no god allowance in there. (though it is possible through civ creation)

Well that I can see. I can only guess that was supposed to be part of your $70 dollar backing.

Great catch! Thank you. I fixed that right away.

No problem, it helps that it was actually one of the first things I immediately looked for.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Blargityblarg on June 03, 2012, 10:50:00 pm
You might want to emphasise the 'randomly appearing' part in every 'define a character' reward; having however many kings, queens and sultans in every game might be a bit odd.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 10:54:49 pm
You might want to emphasise the 'randomly appearing' part in every 'define a character' reward; having however many kings, queens and sultans in every game might be a bit odd.

Good idea, thanks.

Also, there is an HD version of the Kickstarter video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRWrjYJ8SC4&feature=youtu.be

I'm also attaching a link to the Kickstarter project itself, since unfortunately their videos get processed down to crap.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 10:58:33 pm
Also good choice of music for the video. It gives a strong sense of wonder.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Knight of Fools on June 03, 2012, 10:59:20 pm
Man.

How do you kickstarter folks always make the top reward tier sound so awesome?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 11:01:53 pm
Man.

How do you kickstarter folks always make the top reward tier sound so awesome?

Truth be known... I actually wouldn't want the cruise, though I consider myself the exception in that. Though the "Your ideas will affect the game" guarentee is practically carved in gold.

Just the kickstarter example again so people know where it is.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dhagar/1066891227?token=fad69742 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dhagar/1066891227?token=fad69742)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 03, 2012, 11:09:52 pm
Also good choice of music for the video. It gives a strong sense of wonder.

Yes, Joe (aka Sentientdeth) made all of that. His musical abilities are truly quite badass. I can't wait for people to hear the battle track he's composing right now. I've heard the first bits of it, and it gave me the shivers.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 03, 2012, 11:15:44 pm
Also good choice of music for the video. It gives a strong sense of wonder.

Yes, Joe (aka Sentientdeth) made all of that. His musical abilities are truly quite badass. I can't wait for people to hear the battle track he's composing right now. I've heard the first bits of it, and it gave me the shivers.  :D

Oddly enough this is the second compliment I gave him on this thread but he really deserves no less. He puts adventure back into adventure. Everytime I hear it I want to whip out a 80s or 90s classic.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Sentientdeth on June 03, 2012, 11:22:30 pm
Thanks guys =)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Scelly9 on June 03, 2012, 11:42:03 pm
Oh, mother of god how have I not seen this before. This looks amazing.

Now I wish I had 2k laying around. :P
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 04, 2012, 03:13:32 am
I think your rewards just cheated me out of 15-30 more dollars than I was planning to give. Damn you.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Scelly9 on June 04, 2012, 03:16:01 am
I think your rewards just cheated me out of 15-30 more dollars than I was planning to give. Damn you.
I agree with this statement. I don't have this money, dammit!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Servant Corps on June 04, 2012, 06:18:15 am
Er....the following is my opinion.

I think I dislike the Kickstarter's draft, partly because it doesn't really have the "reason" I was interested in it. If I was going in there without my previous knowledge of the game, I think I would dismiss it entirely as a bunch of buzzwords, with no actual focus on what the game is and how it is different from its competitors. And $5,000 also seem way too much for a roguelike.

Your Kickstarter, in fact, is having me doubt what the game actually is. What is Cult? Is it a standard roguelike with many planned features and random generation being the main gimmick? Or is it a roguelike combined with a strategy game, where you play as a cultist trying to restore your chosen God's honor, either through adventures into dungeons or establishing your own religious "cult" and conquering territories? If it is the latter, it should be mentioned in the first paragraph, before you start going into procedural generation.

EDIT: And if it is the former, then that should also be mentioned before procedural generation, so that the observer know what he's donating. I'm sure there are some people that like standard roguelikes as well. At least a sense of what this game is should help.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 04, 2012, 06:31:04 am
Your Kickstarter, in fact, is having me doubt what the game actually is. What is Cult? Is it a standard roguelike with many planned features and random generation being the main gimmick?

No. I don't think you could accurately call it a 'standard roguelike'. Without even touching on the various features I'm planning on implementing (including building, political intrigue, and story generation, to name a few - which already disqualify it as a 'standard roguelike') the simple fact that it's real-time probably already kills the normal turn-based roguelike feel that a Nethack or ADOM player would be expecting, so it would have been silly for me to bill it as any such thing.

Quote
Or is it a roguelike combined with a strategy game, where you play as a cultist trying to restore your chosen God's honor, either through adventures into dungeons or establishing your own religious "cult" and conquering territories? If it is the latter, it should be mentioned in the first paragraph, before you start going into procedural generation.

Partially. Is Dwarf Fortress a game about playing dwarves and getting the king to arrive to your fort? Well... not really, but that's a small part of it. That's hardly the overarching goal or theme of the game, and I didn't want to pinhole Cult into some kind of similarly lame description, since it will essentially be a game where you create your own goals. Creating a religious cult need not be one of them.

In fact, there's a very explicit statement about what the game in the first paragraph:
Quote
Cult is an open-ended role-playing game set in a user-generated world with a strong focus on storytelling, exploration, and environmental interaction.

Sorry you don't like the Kickstarter.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Servant Corps on June 04, 2012, 06:45:09 am
Apology accepted. I just needed to express my thoughts.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: bertix on June 04, 2012, 06:49:25 am
Love your video and kickstarter page, you might have me as a spirit in-game haha.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 04, 2012, 06:49:58 am
It's fine. I just needed to express my thoughts.

No problem; it's better for me to hear concerns. It's impossible to satisfy everybody, but that doesn't mean I don't want to. At any rate, even if you don't want to contribute, you've posted many times on this topic and I appreciate your feedback.

Quote from: bertix
Love your video and kickstarter page, you might have me as a spirit in-game haha.

Awesome.  :D
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mephansteras on June 04, 2012, 01:33:09 pm
Aww...it's not live yet. I was looking forward to backing it today!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 04, 2012, 02:48:55 pm
Aww...it's not live yet. I was looking forward to backing it today!

After finally getting everything sorted out with Amazon (*shakefist*) I'm now just waiting on Kickstarter to review it and (hopefully) approve it.  :(

On a positive note, Sentientdeth designed a badass font:

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb297/eldiablodelagua/font.png)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2012, 03:26:44 pm
Actually when you think of it the reward system is actually smarter then it seems (even if it slightly invades the integrity of the project itself, but I assume that you arn't going to have games more then 50% fixed randomised content unless the game rolls really wonky).

It not only entices people to put more money into the project but it also serves almost like a suggestion box. Everyone's idea of what would be a awsome god, leader, civilisation, merchant, murderer, swordsmen, magician, or what have you... is going to be in there.

He is going to know what personality traits to fill out, how to make certain skills on NPCs noticable, mechanics and not only that but he knows those are the kinds of things people are going for because that is what the donators filled out.

Though I don't think that is what Lord Dullard had in mind.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 04, 2012, 04:00:07 pm
I really want to donate, if just to have a character that wanders in the forest that players can meet.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2012, 04:07:36 pm
Likewise. I think that's far better than the equivalent of having your name in the credits.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2012, 04:13:12 pm
Likewise. I think that's far better than the equivalent of having your name in the credits.

Dear goodness can I imagine the credits being long on some projects. I trust dullard won't let his rewards destroy the integrity of the project.

Also dang next page amnesia! to admit I don't think anyone had comments on what I wrote so its all ok.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Shook on June 04, 2012, 04:18:26 pm
Aw snap, looks like a mighty fine Kickstarter to me! Well, your part of it, anyways, but it's nice that i could contribute. I'm currently wondering whether it would be odd for me to donate moolah or not. (what with you intending to give me a little cut of it)

HMMMMMMMMMM

But, while i wonder, i'll say that them's some pretty cool rewards!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2012, 11:32:57 pm
Might as well ask this here since this is Lord Dullard's thread

What are spirits now that we can apperantly get a donation bonus of showing up as one? At least as far as the game is concerned...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Sentientdeth on June 05, 2012, 07:26:44 am
Aw snap, looks like a mighty fine Kickstarter to me! Well, your part of it, anyways, but it's nice that i could contribute. I'm currently wondering whether it would be odd for me to donate moolah or not. (what with you intending to give me a little cut of it)

HMMMMMMMMMM

But, while i wonder, i'll say that them's some pretty cool rewards!

I was wondering the same thing to be honest haha

edit: Oh and on the subject of the font, I'm working on figuring out a way to make it into a real font as we speak, so it can be used by people who aren't me.  =P

edit #2:  Got it figured out, I think, should be able to upload something usable soon enough.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 05, 2012, 09:36:57 am
Might as well ask this here since this is Lord Dullard's thread

What are spirits now that we can apperantly get a donation bonus of showing up as one? At least as far as the game is concerned...

Spirits are supernatural beings that are associated with a place or region, basically. They range from benevolent to evil and their associated place can be either very specific or a generalized type (i.e. X Mountain vs. wanders various mountains).
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 02:27:10 pm
Might as well ask this here since this is Lord Dullard's thread

What are spirits now that we can apperantly get a donation bonus of showing up as one? At least as far as the game is concerned...

Spirits are supernatural beings that are associated with a place or region, basically. They range from benevolent to evil and their associated place can be either very specific or a generalized type (i.e. X Mountain vs. wanders various mountains).

I can decipher as much... But what exactly are they?

Like I am a person in the game... I look infront of me and there is a Fire Spirit. What do I see? What am I using to see it?

Edit addition

Quote
Spirits are supernatural beings that are associated with a place (either a very specific place like X Mountain or a generalized type like 'wanders mountains') who embody that area in a metaphorical sense and have some degree of control and influence over it. They're essentially above mortal but below god, being tied to an area. Think of naiads and dryads, but extended to many more concepts than just trees/rivers.

Ohh I see makes sense. Very interesting.

---

Also I have to ask

What is the difference between being a powerful creature and being a powerful denezin of a dungeon other then location? Which to admit could be just it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 05, 2012, 03:03:35 pm
By 'monstrous inhabitant of a dungeon' I'm referring to something more akin to a boss creature (not that the setup of dungeons will be quite that simple), not just your average above-ground happy fluffy critter.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 03:05:41 pm
By 'monstrous inhabitant of a dungeon' I'm referring to something more akin to a boss creature (not that the setup of dungeons will be quite that simple), not just your average above-ground happy fluffy critter.

So instead of being the DRAGON!!! you can be the King of the Dragons in the Dragon Dungeon of Dragons that hides the Seal of the dragons that can raise the Dragon Slaying God from his forced slumber?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Trefall on June 05, 2012, 03:17:20 pm
I'm very impressed with your kickstarter page Lord Dullard! My only concern is that you'll be spending all your time integrating the prices people get for supporting the game :) The construction system for buildings looks really cool btw!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 03:18:44 pm
I'm very impressed with your kickstarter page Lord Dullard! My only concern is that you'll be spending all your time integrating the prices people get for supporting the game :) The construction system for buildings looks really cool btw!

I think he will probably streamline it. As well there is no timeline for a lot of the stuff anyway.

Actually I kinda put my fingers in my ears when I think of the ways he will simplify the donation write ups...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Trefall on June 05, 2012, 03:20:58 pm
Those $250+ prices are very tempting though... ;)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 04:58:39 pm
Those $250+ prices are very tempting though... ;)

I agree with you there. WAAAAY out of my price range.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Scelly9 on June 05, 2012, 05:04:51 pm
Does the "full game" level include the alpha versions of the previous donation level?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 05:09:49 pm
Does the "full game" level include the alpha versions of the previous donation level?

Yes...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Sentientdeth on June 05, 2012, 05:56:43 pm
I'm very impressed with your kickstarter page Lord Dullard! My only concern is that you'll be spending all your time integrating the prices people get for supporting the game :) The construction system for buildings looks really cool btw!

I think he will probably streamline it. As well there is no timeline for a lot of the stuff anyway.

Actually I kinda put my fingers in my ears when I think of the ways he will simplify the donation write ups...

Hell, once I finish the soundtrack, or maybe even before, if he comes up with a way I can implement you guys with a GUI or spreadsheet, I'm willing the bear the workload, so he doesn't even really need to worry about it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 05, 2012, 06:20:43 pm
Okay - official Kickstarter link is up, guys.  :D

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dhagar/cult-awakening-of-the-old-ones
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 06:28:05 pm
Hmm I thought I'd have more time, but it seems not. Though if Dullard is right I can still donate after the project is complete for the same rewards up to a certain time.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: ashton1993 on June 05, 2012, 06:40:49 pm
Just pledged a dollar, looks pretty awesome and it'd be great to see this come to fruition, might put a bit more in later :)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Shook on June 05, 2012, 06:45:51 pm
Awesome! Glad to see it finally went live. I also posted a note on my deviantART, just to raise awareness/confirm your permission. I'm hoping it can bring a few more backers. c:
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 05, 2012, 06:56:59 pm
Thanks, Shook!

Neonivek - I think that will be okay. Are you waiting to donate because you can't use Kickstarter, or for another reason? (If you can use Kickstarter obviously that's preferable, both because it helps to bring the campaign towards completion and to preserve my sanity somewhat.)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2012, 07:01:23 pm
I can use Kickstarter (assuming Canada can). It is that I have no income and I am trying to get my first job. It is concievable I won't get a job or the money in time.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 05, 2012, 08:25:45 pm
In that case, no problem. I will definitely still honor your donation after the Kickstarter if you can't make it before then. :)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Cook on June 05, 2012, 11:12:43 pm
I saw your game dude it its nice and I like your ideas :)
Atm I dont have access to a credit card but in the near future I will donate for sure
keep it up I really liked it and I will totally stick with it :3
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Trefall on June 06, 2012, 12:49:53 am
Congrats on the launch! Already 20 backers! :)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 06, 2012, 01:15:01 am
Posted it on Attnam.com, I'll try to convince the people there to pool together for an attnam civ.
And still no news from my bank for a new card...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 07, 2012, 05:44:29 pm
Posted it on Attnam.com, I'll try to convince the people there to pool together for an attnam civ.
And still no news from my bank for a new card...

Actually... that sounds very interesting. Attnam turned into a civilisation.

With the King, weilding a powerful sword glowing with power, is the embodied pinicle of the god's power, as well as secretly defended by the Frog god's avatars.

But really when I think about it... What would Attnam be? There isn't a lot on it other then what it has and its psychopathic gods.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 08, 2012, 06:41:52 am
Well, yeah, the psychopathic and very active gods would be the main selling point. Also, a focus on slave labor. Suicidal people defending their gods by blowing themselves up, cfr. kamikaze dwarfs. The use of magic trough wands, scrolls and prayer only, maybe outlawed otherwise? A single high priest as a ruler, lust for colonization maybe? All cities built in perfect north-south aligned squares? Also, but that might be pushing Dullard's programming, a main temple in the shape of whatever nearby creature most closely resembles a frog. A tendency to enchant swords with fire and hammers with lightning. A love for tunnels connecting different cities or parts of one big city, often more complex than they should be. Magical experimentation on plants an animals, funded by the government.

I think it might work. Maybe. A little.

Currently, we have 5 people interested, including me. Aiming for 10 so we can pay $10 each, which seems to be what most people would prefer.

@Lord Dullard: I finally managed to pay. Sorry for the wait.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 08, 2012, 08:40:36 am
Thanks, EagleV!

An Attnam civ would be awesome - I'm a huge IVAN fan myself.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2012, 12:00:02 pm
IVAN to me represents the best and worst of roguelikes at the same time.

Anyhow EagleV it is more about what is it as a civilisation. Also yes the gods would be the selling point.

Afterall even though Attnam has active gods they are all malicious and extremely self-interested often deciding to outright maim a needy follower and even capable of angering each to force them to send their second in command (no small feat), though their love is priceless as their gifts include things such as replacing lost limbs with metal, plant, or other unusual types. Though the gods allow free worship they are not all on the same side.

Anyhow I guess what Attnam is as a civilisation is obviously a religion based society where a priest rules. They are also aggressive and dominating with a large amount of slave labour enforced by their large army.

Magically Attnam itself is rather primative. The gods themselves are the ones who bestow most of the blessings and magic and the rest are created by dungeon dwellers (Attnam's most powerful sorcerer is inside a dungeon). Though don't underestimate Attnam for they protect their priest with the most powerful arms and armor they can find, as well as godly protector. Though Don't get the wrong idea, the magic in Attnam's dungeons are overflowing as well many of their major holy sites are contained within.

(Not taking credit for comming up with that... I am taking it from EagleV)

You should probably end up making a god write up EagleV. I was on the Attnam boards but I lost my password a while ago.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 08, 2012, 04:00:21 pm
Well, it doesn't look like anyone else will contribute. Maybe I'll try to get to 70, to get one of the gods in. I'll let you know how this goes. Neonivek, would you be interested in contributing to this 'project'?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Scelly9 on June 08, 2012, 04:09:54 pm
I will, once I get back from this convention.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Fniff on June 08, 2012, 04:23:51 pm
I will once this credit card gets some money on it.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2012, 04:53:34 pm
Well, it doesn't look like anyone else will contribute. Maybe I'll try to get to 70, to get one of the gods in. I'll let you know how this goes. Neonivek, would you be interested in contributing to this 'project'?

I am trying to get a job so I can donate myself... but I won't be able to for a while.

Even then my goal was mostly for myself.

Though EagleV it seems like you have two more people who may be able to contribute to your "Bring Attnam to Cult" goal.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: warhammer651 on June 08, 2012, 08:29:42 pm
I just tossed in 70. surprised by the number of people forking over 100, and who the hell donated 500?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 09, 2012, 02:27:08 am
Well, it doesn't look like anyone else will contribute. Maybe I'll try to get to 70, to get one of the gods in. I'll let you know how this goes. Neonivek, would you be interested in contributing to this 'project'?

I am trying to get a job so I can donate myself... but I won't be able to for a while.

Even then my goal was mostly for myself.

Though EagleV it seems like you have two more people who may be able to contribute to your "Bring Attnam to Cult" goal.

Yeah, thanks for the support anyway. Scelly9 and Fniff, just for clarity, you were talking about the Attnam/IVAN donation as opposed to simply donating to cult on your own, right?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Fniff on June 09, 2012, 11:56:01 am
Actually, no. I was actually just saying that I was going to donate on my own. But I could help, if you like. I decided to change my donation to 15, anyway.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: EagleV on June 09, 2012, 12:20:35 pm
No, no, you should donate on your own if that was your plan, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: melkorp on June 11, 2012, 08:01:15 pm
Just Kickstarted this.  Congats, Lord Dullard: I'm super pleased this project's found the support it deserves to ascend to the next level, can't wait for alpha.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Clownmite on June 17, 2012, 05:57:45 pm
I just watched the construction preview vid, that looks awesome so far. Is that GUI written in Python? It looks petty snappy.

Will you be able to do things like build a castle and set troops to man it while you go off adventuring? And will it be able to be attacked while you're away?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 17, 2012, 06:07:27 pm
Yes to everything.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2012, 06:15:58 pm
Since you are splitting up magic and religion/spirituality, does that mean dealing with gods and spirits and getting their boons uses an entirely seperate system from magic or is there an intersection point? (Ignoring gods and spirits of magic... who are always the exception)

Actually given that this is about the awakened old gods it sort of makes me wonder if this will deal with some Lovecraftian magic where the gods themselves created spells done by chanting their names. Magic can be confusing.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Clownmite on June 17, 2012, 11:11:32 pm
Yes to everything.

Cool. Will other AI people also "use" the building system and construct things outside of cities? I know programming intelligent use of these things would be very difficult but it would be nice to see beings other than the player use this.

Also, the cloud shadows/reflections written in python? I'm impressed with how smoothly everything seems to run.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 18, 2012, 07:55:09 pm
For the most part gods/spirits use an entirely separate system of magic, 'magic' being the more science-like ability to tap magical energies, whereas gods and spirits will be connected to more of an abstract, spiritual set of abilities.

The cloud shadows/reflections are indeed written in Python. It actually looks much smoother when I'm not running FRAPS, which detests Cult with a passion on fullscreen. Things will eventually be built by the AI, and certainly outside of cities, though it'll take time to get to that point.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 18, 2012, 08:36:41 pm
Oh, you've got a thread here. Didn't see that.

So what's the custom tileset for the stretch goal going to be able to do? It seems like you can make some pretty good pictures with what you're working with currently, but what can't you do now that you're going to do with the tileset?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 18, 2012, 09:09:17 pm
What I'm working with now is monochromatic text characters. A tileset implies being able to use multicolored characters, at the very least. ;P

Also, I'm not an artist, and what I'm using right now is very, very simple (i.e., stuff that I could throw together using my limited skills). And... it's monochromatic.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 18, 2012, 09:11:50 pm
What I'm working with now is monochromatic text characters. A tileset implies being able to use multicolored characters, at the very least. ;P

Oh, duh. I was thinking in the terms of a DF tileset, where everything is monochromatic. I forgot you can do more than that.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 21, 2012, 03:39:28 pm
What I'm working with now is monochromatic text characters. A tileset implies being able to use multicolored characters, at the very least. ;P

Oh, duh. I was thinking in the terms of a DF tileset, where everything is monochromatic. I forgot you can do more than that.
You can? I really need to brush up on this stuff again.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Clownmite on June 21, 2012, 06:11:55 pm
You can? I really need to brush up on this stuff again.

Not with libTCOD, but he certainly can if he switches libraries.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Kyzrati on June 22, 2012, 07:05:49 am
You can? I really need to brush up on this stuff again.

Not with libTCOD, but he certainly can if he switches libraries.
Actually, you can do pretty much anything 2D you want with libTCOD, since it provides access to SDL surfaces (http://doryen.eptalys.net/data/libtcod/doc/1.5.1/html2/system_sdlcbk.html?c=true&cpp=true&cs=true&py=true&lua=true). It may not be the best option out there, but it's possible.

By the way Lord Dullard, congrats on the fundraising success so far and good luck with your project. You've convinced me it *is* possible to crowdfund a roguelike. I may even do it one day ;)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 22, 2012, 04:41:38 pm
I'll admit, I'm not that excited for the pdf export.

LD, are you still planning on doing the last stretch goal eventually if you don't achieve it now?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on June 22, 2012, 05:14:13 pm
Thanks, Kyzrati!

@poh: Not absolutely sure on that one; I'm actually fairly reluctant to make this game really mod-oriented, but I can see good reasons for doing so. I'm happier with the idea of allowing user-submitted content to be added to a larger content pool than the idea of allowing heavy modding, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: T-Mick on July 25, 2012, 01:21:38 pm
Good Lord, I think I've just found something awesome here.  I'm downloading the alpha, just to see what you have so far.  If this gets finished though, I don't think the Internet will be able to contain the stunning experience it will be. 
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Valid_Dark on July 31, 2012, 05:18:38 am
Good job with the kickstarted, I was following this when you first posted about it, but stopped paying attention to it for a while, it's looking much better (not that it ever looked bad)
it looks like it's going to be an amazing game.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: timotheus on August 10, 2012, 02:56:35 pm
Hadn't been on the forums in a while; I shouldn't have been surprised that Cult is being made by a Bay12'er. :)

I am a backer!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on August 10, 2012, 07:00:16 pm
And I wish I was a backer (maybe by next summer >_<)

The official forums are rather asleep right now but I guess it is to be expected.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 11, 2012, 07:50:02 am
And I wish I was a backer (maybe by next summer >_<)

The official forums are rather asleep right now but I guess it is to be expected.

Yeah, things are quite slow for a bit. It's only temporary; pretty much all of the stuff being worked on code-side right now isn't ready to show off. I'm hacking away at a rewrite of creature code, while Trefall is working on the rendering engine (and also his thesis, which is taking a lot of time).

Ovo has put together some really nice temporary tiles while we're still using libtcod. Here's old:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vs. new:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Of course, that's still just using the very limited drawing capabilities (monochromatic text chars) available with the library. Things will look completely different with a new engine. I've already seen a bit of what Trefall's doing, and it's really awesome, but not quite ready to show off yet (mostly because we haven't settled on a final look and feel to things, so I don't want to show something we'll never really use in the end).
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Mephansteras on August 11, 2012, 10:58:14 am
Really looking forward to seeing what the new engine can do!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Valid_Dark on August 12, 2012, 11:36:22 pm
Can you shed some light on how you generated the dunes?
Pretty please?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on August 13, 2012, 12:40:11 am
Have any of you just checked out creature strength? it is rather interesting to see how powerful even the smallest creatures are and how almost unbeatable the largest ones are.

Dullard why are the creature descriptions messed up? they are there, they just don't show properly for some reason.

I just love how there is no answer.

But fine I will answer it myself

The descriptions are working perfectly but the ability to look at them properly wasn't set up yet. Thus what we are seeing is a badly centered top paragraph that cuts out at several points.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 21, 2012, 12:00:45 pm
Can you shed some light on how you generated the dunes?
Pretty please?

:)

I may eventually do a small libTCOD guide, since I won't be using it for that much longer, but it would be a really lengthy explanation - and if I'm going to write out that much detail, I figure I might as well aim it towards being a bit more broad in scope. So at some point in the future, maybe.

Have any of you just checked out creature strength? it is rather interesting to see how powerful even the smallest creatures are and how almost unbeatable the largest ones are.

Dullard why are the creature descriptions messed up? they are there, they just don't show properly for some reason.

I just love how there is no answer.

But fine I will answer it myself

The descriptions are working perfectly but the ability to look at them properly wasn't set up yet. Thus what we are seeing is a badly centered top paragraph that cuts out at several points.

First off, creatures are in the process of being rewritten entirely. The way their descriptions are generated is included.

Secondly, the engine itself is going to be completely rewritten, along with the GUI. That also makes it really silly to put a lot of work into the current GUI, since at this point it's going to be scuttled. I've been working on content, mainly setting up an entirely new scheme for how creatures are put together, which will make the process moddable by players down to a very basic level.

They don't show up properly in the Atlas because it was unfinished in the pre-alpha build that was released for the Kickstarter. They will probably remain that way because it would be largely pointless to spend time on a soon-to-be-defunct GUI.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on August 21, 2012, 02:26:34 pm
Thanks for answering Dullard

Rereading what I wrote... I am sorry if it seems a bit harsh. I actually wasn't sarcastic when I said "I just love how there is no answer" If I remember correctly I was actually laughing because I asked that a few times and you never answered. So I figured I was just fantastically unlucky and laughed for a good five minutes.

Yes I am very masocistic sometimes.

Quote
First off, creatures are in the process of being rewritten entirely. The way their descriptions are generated is included

Makes sense. While you definately have the catelog of creature features set up judging by your earlier posts, the actual stats and normality needs to be edited especially for features such as magic, intelligence, and stuff.

It especially makes sense because when I looked at the game's equivilant of a mouse and saw that some of them REALLY could take on the game's equivilant of a human (easily) then something was odd.

I am restraining myself from asking too many questions since I want to be surprised somewhat.

Quote
They don't show up properly in the Atlas because it was unfinished in the pre-alpha build that was released for the Kickstarter. They will probably remain that way because it would be largely pointless to spend time on a soon-to-be-defunct GUI.

I was actually wondering more about the mechanical reasons for it. I realise they are broken and you didn't want to fix it. But why exactly is it broken from a programming standpoint?

I was actually curious as to what the game was doing exactly to off center the text.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lord Dullard on August 22, 2012, 03:15:24 pm
No trouble, I figured you were just having a bad day or something.  :P

Originally the creature descriptions were considerably shorter and complex string formatting wasn't really necessary. Since the Atlas was first cobbled together they've grown larger, and consequently don't display properly. I could fix them by simply adding a scrollbar, but again, I'd basically be fixing the air conditioning in a car I was about to take to the junkyard. We'll be switching to an entirely new renderer (which means libTCOD will no longer be used, though I may maintain a libTCOD version just for fun if I have the spare time, as I've been wanting to write some simple tutorials about it for a while now) and using a different GUI library; right now we're looking closely at libRocket, but in the end we'll settle on whatever provides the most functionality with the least hassle, so we'll see.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Valid_Dark on August 23, 2012, 03:24:20 am
Can you shed some light on how you generated the dunes?
Pretty please?

:)

I may eventually do a small libTCOD guide, since I won't be using it for that much longer, but it would be a really lengthy explanation - and if I'm going to write out that much detail, I figure I might as well aim it towards being a bit more broad in scope. So at some point in the future, maybe.


I'd rather it be a non library-specific / non language-specific just general methodology type deal.
But ya, I understand you're a busy man, so just if you feel like it or something, idk,
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Lap on August 24, 2012, 04:07:00 pm
Wait a minute...are you scrapping the best roguelike desert I've ever seen? Awwwhhhh....
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2012, 05:05:44 pm
Wait a minute...are you scrapping the best roguelike desert I've ever seen? Awwwhhhh....

I wouldn't honestly think so.

hmmm

Will spirits be tied to locations or are they omnipresent with possible spheres of influence?

Wow... dang that is unclear... I guess what I mean is

Will Spirits be like other beings except non-physical in that they need to move around... or will they be more like a force in that they are everywhere or at least everywhere within their domain? (Ignoring Avatars)
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Max White on November 08, 2012, 12:54:03 am
So what ever happened to this project?
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Kyzrati on November 08, 2012, 01:00:30 am
Dev makes unexpected amount of money on Kickstarter... Dev disappears... = ?

Seriously, I'm pretty sure he's just busy working on the game after biting off more than he can chew, but letting the weeks pass, and then the actual promised delivery month pass, without so much as a single public statement or update is really, really bad form.

Disappointed... Turning into one of the lessons that will one day lead people to lose faith in Kickstarter indie projects.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Max White on November 08, 2012, 01:04:48 am
I hope that isn't the case...  :(
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on November 08, 2012, 01:07:37 am
Actually he didn't abandon the project. He is just very busy (apperantly... apperantly there are people who still talk to him... but he doesn't even respond on the official forums anymore)

though yes I have absolutely nothing to defend him on the grounds that he doesn't update when he has nothing to show. It is as I said it would have been nice to have some sort of update even if he wasn't going to say anything.

Quote
then the actual promised delivery month pass

It was very clear he pulled that date out of his butt anyhow and that in order to reach it he was originally going to release a very chopped up version.

The fact that he doesn't have anything when "October" came about isn't something that surprises me.

---

What does worry about the "Trust us he is still working on it" I am getting from the people who quote unquote "talk to him" is that... it actually makes things seem even worse somehow. >_>
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Kyzrati on November 08, 2012, 01:13:33 am
The fact that he doesn't have anything when "October" came about isn't something that surprises me.
Yeah, it's certainly even forgivable, but you've got to at least talk to people.

Even if there's nothing worth showing off, he needs to at least keep everyone in the loop. Maybe he'll figure this out before the current silence does even more damage to his credibility...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Max White on November 08, 2012, 01:15:34 am
Well he said he had worked on the project for two years before he started a kick starter... You don't just drop a two year labor of love because you made some money from it.

Although if Minecraft has taught us anything, it is that as soon as you take peoples money, they feel entitled to know what is going on... Sometimes a little too much.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on November 08, 2012, 01:25:33 am
Well he said he had worked on the project for two years before he started a kick starter... You don't just drop a two year labor of love because you made some money from it.

Although if Minecraft has taught us anything, it is that as soon as you take peoples money, they feel entitled to know what is going on... Sometimes a little too much.

Someone actually made the "Stop being Entitled" speach on the Cult Forums...

Which immediately got shot down when someone chimed in and said "We arn't customers we are backers". (Mind you it was an overreaction since people were rather civil and just going "Hey LD what is going on?". Where here that speach may actually be a bit more justified.)

This is kinda EXACTLY the situation where... well... we are (well not me as I am not a backer) entitled to some information. As well the amount of information asked and how often is by far sensible.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Max White on November 08, 2012, 01:35:06 am
Well I do agree that you don't take peoples money then go under a rock to work... Eh, maybe I will catch up on everything I missed while I was away. It is still news to me at least!
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on November 08, 2012, 03:22:57 am
Well I do agree that you don't take peoples money then go under a rock to work... Eh, maybe I will catch up on everything I missed while I was away. It is still news to me at least!

There really isn't much to say. LD is working hard and hasn't been visiting the forums or giving any news for I think what amounts to a month.
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Max White on November 08, 2012, 04:13:22 am
Eh, I was away for a few months. Inventory system looks fun...
Title: Re: Cult - New Development Video (5-10-12)
Post by: Neonivek on November 10, 2012, 03:26:53 am
There we go, he is back and apperantly he had to rewrite the engine sooner then he thought.