is this after the update?My stresed dwarves were under 44.05. I made the mistake of butchering out in the open, in a reanimating biome. Every time a piece of skin started to crawl around, everyone pounced on it and got stress from vengeance. Now the butchering is sealed away, but cleaning up after a siege with reanimation is still a big stress problem.
If dwarves respond to stress in relation to their dispositions, then that's fine! Working as intended.Yeah, some tough emotionless dorfs are needed for corpse duty. Ex-soldiers who no longer feel anything, I guess.
But if EVERY dwarf struggles with siege cleanup, then it seems like a problem. A community needs its tough members as much as its softies. Shoulders to cry on; and shoulders to heave wheelbarrows full of mutilated goblins, in this example...
There's some mechanism at work that reduces the chance for a stress hit for a given event. At least, that's how I interpret statements such as, "I was attacked by the dead. I am not upset by this." Maybe it's the discipline skill.It's the STRESS_VULNERABILITY trait. I had 3 dwarves that eventually got stressed in the previous "no stress" versions, with one of them throwing constant tantrums. DT confirmed they all had high stress propensity, with the highest among them being the tantrumer. The buildup of stress seemed to be mostly due to nausea from the sun.
It's not the death. It's the specific vengeance mechanic. When a dwarf sees another dwarf in combat, he generally decides to join in. And when he joins the fight, he has a chance to take a lump of stress as vengeance.Bird watching can also count as "combat".
Also some pretty nice buffs from falling in love, getting married or having children. Perhaps taking a more active approach in getting your dwarfs hooked up is needed now.
Sadly half of these systems doesn't work well together. In the past where the stress system was in full effect, we also had a working social system, where dwarfs would make friends and partners on their own, and dwarfs in charge would improve their social skills.
Now we have inns, temples and military schedules. So it will require some micro management, where you disable or delete all meeting zones, make small bedrooms for the ones you want socializing, disable any military training and most of their jobs, then it might work. But ofcause that means no place to pray or read a book to relive stress...
Perhaps it would be a good idea to report it, then, so that Toady can fix it.It's this one, I think. Maybe there's a couple of others mentioning similar observations. Can't recall.
Apparently, "stumbling around obliviously" is not a death sentence anymore. I thought my mason was sure dead, but she recovered eventually. Too bad my fortress succumbed to an invasion shortly after.It's actually a new and separate thing, equivalent to a tantrum. Obliviousness is a precursor to going stark raving mad.
Well at least we know which ones to section before they snap.Statues of gods known for cursing defilers, I presume ;)
Do we know the exact stress effects of each memory yet?
Back in .34 I would make a 'happy thought asylum' for tantrumming dwarves to get them to calm down. All statues and engraved walls.
The buildup of stress seemed to be mostly due to nausea from the sun.
The quote's by me, not Leonidas.The buildup of stress seemed to be mostly due to nausea from the sun.
I think I found our new DF Wiki quote.
The quote's by me, not Leonidas.The buildup of stress seemed to be mostly due to nausea from the sun.
I think I found our new DF Wiki quote.
Yeah, the selection system for quotes confuses the hell outta me because I'm a C++ coder, not some markup monkey. I just changed the name, the time is still wrong but whatever ;)Shouldn't you be used to nested blocks and corresponding parentheses? Save the first quote tag, delete everything up to and including the second-to-last quote tag.
Shouldn't you be used to nested blocks and corresponding parentheses? Save the first quote tag, delete everything up to and including the second-to-last quote tag.
Axedwarf 3 of my backup squad is tantrumming. This could be dangerous. Wonder what's up with him? He's not been in the military long, most action he's seen is watching a bunch of elves get killed by a bunch of dwarf visitors. Where's your discipline, man?Hm, one would have thought that he'd be completely harmless even with deadly steel, if he'd go completely helpless. I guess tantrum anger trumps confrontation paralysis...
"He is a coward, completely overwhelmed by fear when confronted with danger. He becomes completely helpless in stressful situations..."
Note to self: Check thoughts page before equipping 'problem' dwarves with deadly steel. :o
Yeah, he should be OK with a bit more training. Going insane while holding a steel axe probably isn't too safe though. Think I'll retire him for now.Axedwarf 3 of my backup squad is tantrumming. This could be dangerous. Wonder what's up with him? He's not been in the military long, most action he's seen is watching a bunch of elves get killed by a bunch of dwarf visitors. Where's your discipline, man?Hm, one would have thought that he'd be completely harmless even with deadly steel, if he'd go completely helpless. I guess tantrum anger trumps confrontation paralysis...
"He is a coward, completely overwhelmed by fear when confronted with danger. He becomes completely helpless in stressful situations..."
Note to self: Check thoughts page before equipping 'problem' dwarves with deadly steel. :o
I'd probably try to set him on military training to build up discipline, though, but might consider setting up an adjustment squad. This is assuming you can calm the bugger down to get out of tantruming, though.
This might also call for library censorship to ensure only suitable values changing books are read, with the harmful ones kept out of the reach of the buggers.
As glorious as I think having to care about my dwarves feelings again is, I think this balance may have gone a bit far. I have a thriving fort with every good and pleasant thing a dwarf could want in it. I killed ten goblins two years ago, lost a Dwarf doing it, then cleaned up the bodies. A couple trolls attacked from the caverns. One doofus drank himself to death in the middle of the tavern. My fort teeters on the brink of collapse with a third of the population flashing red arrows, tantrums common, and borderline terminal insanity breaking out all over the place.
Almost every Dwarf in the fort has every single long term memory occupied by either watching goblins die or seeing dead goblins. Those memories are so strong they aren't getting replaced so my whole fort is constantly getting hammered with tons of negative thoughts. Even some stress-resistant Dwarves in my military are feeling the strain.
As far as I can tell there are only two things holding it together. First, my mayor has great social skills and likes helping people; there is a line out his office door for a chance to yell at/cry on him. He's brought several back from the brink of terminal insanity and is keeping many others moving. Second, I've turtled through the next two sieges because even if I won the fight I'd still lose the fort.
We should start seeing fell moods and macabre moods with the amount of unhappy dwarves present.Reddit forum has recently been discovering the joys of baby-bone pick axes...
They should only happen when the dead body is a dwarf or a citizen of your fort. That would balance the system completely. I don't think dwarves should give a single fuck about dead goblins, elves or humans.You may not, but Toady probably does. DF ethics like torture and eating dead people are currently based on whether a creature is sapient or not.[/quote]
You may not, but Toady probably does. DF ethics like torture and eating dead people are currently based on whether a creature is sapient or not.
Yes, it would be simple to say 'not dwarf= No stress' except that 1) Civs are made up of lots of races. What happens when my human best friend dies. Don't give a single fuck because implied racism=better game?
those sapient creatures are the *enemy*. Instead of being horrified by goblin corpses, dwarves should get happy thoughts for not dying a horrible death, shouldn't they.That should depend heavily on personality.
I'm 99% sure the problem/bug is that dwarves will only form relationships when idle and adjacent to other dwarves, which never happens if you have a library/tavern/temple, as they will not stand idle next to each other but instead read/socialize/pray. Interestingly, this means that the socialize job does not actually help your dwarves form relationships.
If you force dwarves to be idle and adjacent to each other, they will form relationships as intended, however.
We should start seeing fell moods and macabre moods with the amount of unhappy dwarves present.Had a citizen bard with a fell mood. He claimed the tanner shop, murdered a miner, then stood and watched as the corpse was entombed. Proceeded to go insane while standing in the tanner shop.
It's not fun like tantrum spirals were when they still happened, now it's just broken.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, do positive thoughts even do anything? A dwarf can have pages of happy thoughts, but it seems they all go out the window if anything unhappy appears.
Does returning from a successful raid provide a happy thought?Raids don't produce any thoughts at all right now. And don't satisfy any needs either.
I just completed a few small 3x3 temples for each of my dorfs' gods, and all the red arrows disappeared after a few days. That enraptured thought must be powerful.
What are the equivalent positive thoughts? The sanity of a fortress full of atheist wild dwarves is depending on your answer. :)I just completed a few small 3x3 temples for each of my dorfs' gods, and all the red arrows disappeared after a few days. That enraptured thought must be powerful.
It's one of the most powerful positive thoughts in the game. There aren't any with a stronger impact, though there are equivalent ones. The problem is that it can occupy 1/8 short term and 1/8 long term memory slots while dead goblins can take up all 14 others... I'm doing an experiment to see if I can get it to repeat.
why not 8 temples
What are the equivalent positive thoughts? The sanity of a fortress full of atheist wild dwarves is depending on your answer. :)
Currently having problems with dwarfs getting horrified by crundle and troglodyte corpses. About a fifth of the fort has high stress due to it. We haven’t had a single invasion yet.
I can see getting upset over things like invading goblin corpses, but being on the brink of depression cause you’re feeling bad for the murderous cave monsters? Seeing non-friendly corpses should not give this much of penalty. I can only dread what’s going to happen post first siege cleanup!
Honestly I think there should be a thought bonus for fending off sieges. Like “Urist feels triumphant after the complete decimation of an invading force” after pushing a seige back with no casualties.Currently having problems with dwarfs getting horrified by crundle and troglodyte corpses. About a fifth of the fort has high stress due to it. We haven’t had a single invasion yet.
I can see getting upset over things like invading goblin corpses, but being on the brink of depression cause you’re feeling bad for the murderous cave monsters? Seeing non-friendly corpses should not give this much of penalty. I can only dread what’s going to happen post first siege cleanup!
It was kinda hilarious how my perfect little fort went from fairly happy to depressed and rioting after my first undead siege. Almost comical really
@Leonidas: Why would you want to get your dorf out of the library?
The problem is that seeing people killed or seeing bodies generates the most powerful negative thoughts in the game. With the new memory system there are sixteen (8 short term/seasonal, 8 long term/annual) slots for memories. The stronger a good or bad thought, the more likely it is to take up a short term slot, and the more likely it is to eventually take a long term slot.
The negative thoughts from death and corpses are the strongest in the game so they are basically guaranteed to take a slot each. According to the emotions page on the wiki it takes communing with a god, playing with a child, or something equally positive to generate an equally powerful good thought.
The current system encourages outsourcing killing and cleaning to others, and other means, than military and dwarf cleaners. Like sending monster slayers to caverns (and leave their bodies and equipment where they fell), or cage traps, atom smashers, lava etc. on surface. Maybe sending dwarves abroad on raids, so citizens won't see the ugliness of war.
It's kind of like real life, but it's not a good DF version for experiencing traditional dwarven... values.
On a side note, one of my two dangerously stressed dwarves in an invasion-free fortress got stressed by "Pondering Large Numbers". I immediately asked myself : "Uhm, like, five ??" What's wrong with her, seriously. She also misses a good speech, but I have no idea how to make her give one ( Speaker Skill is Very Rusty :'( )The stress problems in 44.10 aren't just about combat and dead bodies. Certain personalities will constantly gain stress, no matter what you do do. I've forced my dwarves into civ burrows with no jobs to do, and made them hear a month of mediocre poetry, and they still gained stress.
On a side note, one of my two dangerously stressed dwarves in an invasion-free fortress got stressed by "Pondering Large Numbers". I immediately asked myself : "Uhm, like, five ??" What's wrong with her, seriously."Ten." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMKnskpPYeo)