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Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Glueable on December 16, 2015, 09:18:32 pm

Title: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Glueable on December 16, 2015, 09:18:32 pm
I've been messing around in arena mode, and in my results, the Adder Man has won against a Tiger Man with brute strength, has anyone else found any playable race stronger than the Adder Man?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: SQman on December 17, 2015, 05:58:55 am
Maybe elephant seal man? Their sheer size would make them terrifying.
Adder men are venomous, by the way, so that might be venom, not brute strenght, that makes them so powerful. Scorpion men may be more effective than adders, but I'm not sure about their size.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: klefenz on December 17, 2015, 02:15:55 pm
Can you "milk" your own venom as a venomous animal, to coat it on arrows and such?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: SMASH! on December 17, 2015, 05:07:40 pm
Giant desert tortoise men. A legit tanking ability if your enemy isn't armed or really big.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: TheFlame52 on December 17, 2015, 08:20:39 pm
Elephant seal man. I've done tests. They're really slow, though.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 18, 2015, 12:15:22 am
Can you "milk" your own venom as a venomous animal, to coat it on arrows and such?
Definitely not. There's no circumstances where you can milk anything in adventurer mode, or in any mode where you can "milk" venom.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Arcvasti on December 18, 2015, 12:32:33 am
As far as pure effectiveness goes, I've had great success with spider[Whether its brown recluse or jumping doesn't seem to matter] people. They're pretty small and sort of weak, but six arms makes up for it. I usually go with two short swords + a 2-hander while wearing two shields and multiattack with all three weapons each turn in a vaguely terrifying flurry of blades. Scorpion people are probably similarly strong, if not more so. They've also got six limbs to stranglehug you with, which is probably useful for a wrestling build.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 18, 2015, 02:40:30 pm
As far as pure effectiveness goes, I've had great success with spider[Whether its brown recluse or jumping doesn't seem to matter] people. They're pretty small and sort of weak, but six arms makes up for it. I usually go with two short swords + a 2-hander while wearing two shields and multiattack with all three weapons each turn in a vaguely terrifying flurry of blades. Scorpion people are probably similarly strong, if not more so. They've also got six limbs to stranglehug you with, which is probably useful for a wrestling build.

Wouldn't it simply be more advantageous to bite them as a spider/giant scorpion man and invest in wrestling, stealth and armour instead? Given that you have a inbuilt syndrome effect, but instead you're inclined to engage them in combat.

Giant tortoise man worked out well for me, good all rounder beat up some farmers for fun (I can never seem to get past the initial first 5 mins of adventure mode due to FPS reasons so i just go on a spree with whatever i start out with) good times with my mace, 10/10 would mace terrified farmers again.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 24, 2015, 10:55:18 pm
Everybody prepare, for the newest devlog has brought news to us of a horrific monster, now twisted into humanoid form to be playable. I talk of course, of the elephant man! A horrifying creature destined to bring destruction to all that might oppose it. This giant monster can wield a maul in one hand a halberd in the other! All must be wary of such great strength.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: 99Hedgehog on December 25, 2015, 01:40:18 am
Panda men are quite large, larger than the sapient races to be sure
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Somebodyelse on December 25, 2015, 10:55:15 pm
As of 42.03 Elephant seal men. Objectively.

Their adult size is 1.5 million(compared to a dwarf's 60,000) causing their punches to send any normal race you hit flying and instantly gorify the location you hit. Wrestling then pinching limbs can cut them off and a simple throat strangle smashes the neck into gore.

Many a time with them I've flatly bit off goblins' heads in one bite.

Everybody prepare, for the newest devlog has brought news to us of a horrific monster, now twisted into humanoid form to be playable. I talk of course, of the elephant man! A horrifying creature destined to bring destruction to all that might oppose it. This giant monster can wield a maul in one hand a halberd in the other! All must be wary of such great strength.

Isn't he also adding GIANT animal people, too?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Amperzand on December 26, 2015, 06:07:35 am
Because this mountain is my chair now. HAH.

Also I can still fit in your tiny hovel.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: SyrusLD on December 26, 2015, 12:50:34 pm
Isn't he also adding GIANT animal people, too?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sadly you can't play aquatic people... (at least not yet!...?!)

Been playing a Brown Recluse Spider Man, carrying a steel spear, an iron whip and my large copper dagger combined with an iron shield, two wooden shields and steel armor.
Makes short work of other living things, though I could imagine that swords would be better. Or whips and scourges. But I have yet to find any good ones.

And about the poison/venom/syndromes: they are not really worth it in adventure mode as it takes forever before they affect anything. Tried killing a lion by bitting it and waiting for it to rot to death (or such) ... I waited like two days before the rot even set in, and while it was stunned from the pain of the bites, I had to stab it in the head because I was running out of food waiting.

For a moment I also played a Black Mamba Man and bit an Elf (twice) to see how long it'd take for the venom to take effect - but here as well it took a bit longer than I considered "useful".
It's a fun addition for the occasional FUN kill, but I wouldn't make my choice just on that. Having 6 arms available on the other hand ...
Downside: you can't swim. At all. Unless you like watching a spider flounder helplessly in a bit of water, don't try it.


Also played a Giant Tortoise Man, not bad. Not bad. Quite standard from what I saw, no enemy tried hitting me in the shell though, so I can't tell if that helps or not.

I think I should really try out the Elephant Seal Madness - I love being able to throw enemies around and such.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Somebodyelse on December 27, 2015, 01:27:02 am
Sadly you can't play aquatic people... (at least not yet!...?!)

You can edit the raws and replace aquatic with amphibious.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

These guys are straight up cheating. I have backpack full of gold and platinum statues along with my main weapon being a slade statue without any speed penalties. Being able to throw around clowns is hilarous.

They're not invincible though, a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 27, 2015, 01:44:14 am
it's more so swarm tactics beats out giant single targets.
Fort mode still has that bit where a handful of dwarves can kill a forgotten beast just by all attacking at the same time and getting lucky on hit die.
that whale would still have a hard time if a bunch of peasants swarmed you.
edit: wait no I remember the zombies in towers wear armor and have weapons.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Bloax on December 27, 2015, 07:56:20 am
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 27, 2015, 09:48:44 am
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
giant cave spiders, being webbed and put into a stunned state which gives anyone auto-crit on hit.
or letting a dragon breath fire on you, or any of the AOE effects demons have.
zombies are kinda of durable and not damaged when you see them, mostly because the game spawns them in for necromancers.
also spawns them in armor and gives them weapons sooooo compared to a normal player zombie these are groomed undead.
I tested a few out against bogeymen and 2 zombies while getting punched out are still fighting the bogeyman horde.
also the whole aspect of parry is kinda funny when that states they mastered the art of blocking with a weapon something I think the player can do.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Somebodyelse on December 27, 2015, 11:28:08 am
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.

Yeah, the entire time they were trollololo'ing all around me doing crazy matrix dodges and circus acrobatics. My giant 12 mil size unit had great(11) skill in fighter and striker yet was only hitting about half the time on "difficult" strikes. Most of their hits only inflicted bruises, but what took me down was one of them getting a lucky shot on a flipper, chipping a bone causing me to immediately give in to the pain(despite high willpower) then several pages of them hammering on my skull later I was dead.

The whole "any form of bone damage = instantly passing out" is also kinda broken. I've chopped off limbs before and they would still keep fighting, but break so much as a toe bone and it's coma time.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: k33n on December 27, 2015, 01:46:54 pm
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.

Your complaints are imaginary. Zombies do not exist, so Toady is free to balance them any way he pleases and it will always make sense. It is not and cannot be overpowered or absurd.

Personally I feel it makes sense, as a necromancer is more or less channeling the power of a god to make the dead walk, so their strength is a strength of a god's power - unless you demand everything to fit boring tropes and you *know* what a zombie is or isnt.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Spish on December 27, 2015, 08:03:14 pm
Your complaints are imaginary. Zombies do not exist, so Toady is free to balance them any way he pleases and it will always make sense. It is not and cannot be overpowered or absurd.

Personally I feel it makes sense, as a necromancer is more or less channeling the power of a god to make the dead walk, so their strength is a strength of a god's power - unless you demand everything to fit boring tropes and you *know* what a zombie is or isnt.
Counterpoint: They are not fun to fight in their current state.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Nuttycompa on December 27, 2015, 08:26:59 pm
Back to the topic, I tried elephantman striker last night.
Oh man, he is literally DF's ONE PUNCH MAN.
Any part my fist aim for just explode into gore, and that poor soul will fly across the room onr end to the other. :D

Bonus point, you also have to 2 spear in your tusk can be use as spear. :P
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: k33n on December 28, 2015, 02:09:09 pm
Well considering what the Toad has just posted I have egg all over my face and body.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Trainzack on December 28, 2015, 07:50:22 pm
Well considering what the Toad has just posted I have egg all over my face and body.

Well, on the bright side, you can now cook a wonderful fully body omelette.

And then eat it I guess.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Bloax on December 28, 2015, 10:31:09 pm
And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
giant cave spiders, being webbed and put into a stunned state which gives anyone auto-crit on hit.
or letting a dragon breath fire on you, or any of the AOE effects demons have.
Yes, I agree. Those are also broken as fuck.

The way they could be 'balanced' would be making such attacks require 'charge-up' like states (think archvile from doom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcf0aOwmiA&t=3m22s) (without the prostrats)) that indicate that they are going to fire off such an attack - another great time to make Observer rolls - and consequently giving you time to get the unhallowed fuck away from there for dear life.

This also makes for the opportunity of painting mental pictures of someone looking at a dragon taking a big breath and doing a sick dive away before it huffs out pure death. Cool.
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.

Your complaints are imaginary. Zombies do not exist, so Toady is free to balance them any way he pleases and it will always make sense. It is not and cannot be overpowered or absurd.
Full-body omelette or not, I'm still going to address this shit.

First of all I really dislike the whole "he has full articstik ctornol!!" argument that quite a lot of people bring up, due to it being completely backwards in regards to my second - main - point;
Dwarf Fortress is a game, that much is undeniable.
It is a fantasy world simulator first, yes, but it is also a game in that allowing you to interact with it is just as - if not more - important than just simulating the world.

This means that for it to be enjoyable, it has to follow the vague concept known as "good game design".
Here's a fun little anecdote from a radically different game;
Quote
The algorithms were, of course, very fun to construct and interesting to discuss outside of the game. The players, however, felt left behind -- the computer was having all the fun -- so we cut the feature. Further, games require not just meaningful choices but also meaningful communication to feel right. Giving players decisions that have consequence but which they cannot understand is no fun. Choice is only interesting when it is both impactful and informed.

--Sid Meiers, on Civilization game design

In this case we are talking about a turn-based action game, which has different requirements than "meaningful choices with meaningful communication of their effects" - though those are also important - the most important of which is the ability to handle a situation or fight.
DF is based in a high fantasy world - a more down-to-earth of the sort, yes, but there's still plenty of bizarrely unreal things such as titans of smoke and shit like that - which does give it an excuse to include gargantuan, terrifying figures that are nigh-unkillable and which can squash just about anyone with little effort. This is already present, as that is what function demons have; they're absolutely massive and crazy dangerous to fight without exploits, a terrifying foe.

Now, as cool as having those "big bad evil" creatures is, they have to be few and far between for them to be truly terrifying - otherwise they're just perfectly ordinary; if every enemy is massive and unbeatable, then there is no real contrast between them, and they don't carry any of the weight they would should they only be extremely scarce.

Besides the fact that having every enemy be unbeatable would make for a very boring theme:
Violence isn't all that impactful in a game like Hatred (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8rGdwGopwk), since you both have no choice but to kill people and to execute them in various violent ways; there are no contrasting colors in this gameplay picture, it's all violence and gore, thus violence and gore isn't very impactful, unlike something like this (watch a couple of minutes) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCe8-1dbXZc&t=4m19s).

Thus part of what makes for a good turn-based action game that has nigh-unbeatable enemies is to keep those enemies reasonably scarce.

But that is only one tangentially related thing, because I haven't even gotten to the meat of the issue yet.

The issue with the massively overpowered zombies (40.01-42.04, rip in piss) is one of meaningful choices.
With the "big bad evil", you have the choice of running away or not fighting them at all, like with zombies - but there is also no reason to fight them other than to challenge your luck and the well-being of your character for a blaze of glory.
Zombies, however, protect a certain thing you may want to put your hands on - namely the power of necromancy. An actual gameplay feature locked behind a wall of guards.

Your choices with the overpowered zombies, however, were severely limited; you could either bite the bullet and spend many hours (and probably a couple of powerful adventurers due to them only having to get lucky once) painstakingly dragging single zombies out of the their huge crowds and 1v1'ing every single one of them - a very boring exercise in patience - or dig around the wall and become a vampire to make the zombies not care about you.

You cannot sneak past them - they smell your life - you cannot kill them with throwing (cross/bows are completely out of the picture) because they are fast, untiring and extremely dodgy - and you absolutely cannot take them on in a brawl because each one takes forever to kill due to the absurd amount of muscle. Your choices are thus either doing something extremely boring in comparison to everything else you could be doing in the game, or becoming a vampire and skipping all the 'fun'.

That is not how a good game works, because this is neither a 'the ultimate big bad' kind of encounter or one that is supposed to be absolutely impossible to approach - since it is a wall to a special aspect of the game (necromancy is quite different from normal companions) - and it's certainly not set up to be anything particularly special; the demons are massive monsters, while zombies are literally rotting corpses.
For this to be good fun, you have to actually be able to handle it in some way that does not require exploiting(!) game mechanics for hours on end (not fun!).

Thus the zombies shouldn't be among the absolute strongest opponents in the game. They're nothing special - necromancers aren't that uncommon - and there's certainly no meaningful reason (the demons come from the terrifying depths of fantasy hell, zombies are walking corpses) for them to be among the most powerful beings in the world. The fact that they can't be defeated with stealth already dictates that brute force is the only solution, and thus this must be a viable solution - otherwise there's not really any choice (it's either "go vampire" or "fuck off", gee, fun!). That Toady has decided to make the zombies much weaker and clumsier while charging all the time is actually a good thing, since it means that you really want to break them up unless you wish to risk losing your footing and be stuck among a horde of zombies, which is already a change of pace from normal fights where such things aren't nearly as necessary. The fact that they're clumsy as hell likely means that if you take the lazy path of brawling and get knocked down, you can cut a lot of feet off to stand up soon afterwards, but that will require some actual playtesting to see if that's practical.

Either way, the nerf provides you with some actual choices on how to approach the fight; you should no longer be forced to spend hours taking down zombie Kenshiro after zombie Kenshiro in single combat exclusively with a fantastically skilled adventurer for a slim chance of success. That is a good change, because they had no place being just as (if not more) unwinnable than fights against the biggest baddest things that even exist in the world.

Which now solves this design issue I've rambled about for quite a while now that made zombies not fun, woop-ee.

In short, then no - this is not some imaginary issue. DF is a game, it should try to be a good one.
There are no excuses to intentionally make a shitty game that doesn't try to be a good experience.
Which is especially important seeing that the whole "fantasy world simulator" thing has a lot of effort put into it.

tl;dr good game design is hard and kenshiro zombies had no god damned place existing let alone being harder fights than fights against motherfucking demons from motherfucking hell, good thing they're gone now
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Amperzand on December 28, 2015, 11:17:52 pm
I find that I agree wholly. ^
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Naryar on December 29, 2015, 06:44:08 am
Kenshiro zombies give a whole new meaning to "you are already dead", I must say.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 29, 2015, 08:54:53 am
The zombies guarding the secrets of necromancy are an appropriate challenge. They aren't entitled to fall down and make way for you just because your reach so extends your grasp that you run in before you're prepared.

On the other hand, they needed to be better balanced so that NPC's who should be able to fight them off, equipped and experienced fighters, would be able to. As it stands, no matter how powerful your allies have become, there'll still be a total casualty rate. I've only been able to solo a necro tower with a combat oriented character, but social oriented characters have no chance to recruit a party capable of achieving it. Also, these hearthfolk just get slaughtered when a necro bandit sends a horde to 'harass' their village.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 12:06:03 pm
The zombies guarding the secrets of necromancy are an appropriate challenge. They aren't entitled to fall down and make way for you just because your reach so extends your grasp that you run in before you're prepared.

On the other hand, they needed to be better balanced so that NPC's who should be able to fight them off, equipped and experienced fighters, would be able to. As it stands, no matter how powerful your allies have become, there'll still be a total casualty rate. I've only been able to solo a necro tower with a combat oriented character, but social oriented characters have no chance to recruit a party capable of achieving it. Also, these hearthfolk just get slaughtered when a necro bandit sends a horde to 'harass' their village.
well no way outside of kiting the zombies out and running in and hoping to find the book. OOOOOR just knock over a statue get free necromancy pass and wander into the tower.
because now you don't need to find and kill a vampire to get a free pass at learning necromancy. or getting lucky and finding a necromancer with no zombies with a slab out in the open for you to talk them out of it.
necromancy for social characters kinda end up moot due to uhh zombies nature of killing anything with a pulse so using them to talk to others is a lot more tricky unless you tell them all to sit out. though that said if you want to use a free zombie army to get your hands on the real social character slab, the demon name then go ahead.
like man I still remember seeing my zombie army getting wrecked by a single normal hell demon so maybe the brokeness is how well equip the zombies are in that tower to how not equipped the ones you get.
that said wait can't you just fly with any of the animal people and just lure the zombies out.

that said I'm gonna miss those Kenshiro Zombies they were FUN. and isn't that the motto of Adventure mode? "Losing is Fun Now it's personal."
also I wonder what do people normally do in adventure mode all the time? because I rarely seen anyone mention going into the caverns after 40. not many know about vaults, has it just been bandit murder 24/7?


edit: wait I remember jumping would save you from webbing if you time it. also the game doesn't get rid of your access to a minecart so you can just ride that out of danger if you're webbed.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Bloax on December 29, 2015, 12:45:08 pm
edit: wait I remember jumping would save you from webbing if you time it. also the game doesn't get rid of your access to a minecart so you can just ride that out of danger if you're webbed.
Last time I stumbled upon a giant cave spider (df2012) you just immediately lost all control of your character the moment you were webbed (and consequently, you then 'instantly' die), is it any different now?

I should roll some character down in the caves. Has the "mysterious cave population mass disappearance" bug been fixed since df2012 too, by any chance?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 01:06:41 pm
edit: wait I remember jumping would save you from webbing if you time it. also the game doesn't get rid of your access to a minecart so you can just ride that out of danger if you're webbed.
Last time I stumbled upon a giant cave spider (df2012) you just immediately lost all control of your character the moment you were webbed (and consequently, you then 'instantly' die), is it any different now?

I should roll some character down in the caves. Has the "mysterious cave population mass disappearance" bug been fixed since df2012 too, by any chance?
oh well with my modded self the whole webbing mechanic on the other side basically makes you unconscious and anyone unconscious has opportunity of attack set to all their body parts including their head.
which the spider would gladly attack.  modded spider people with webbing on greeting has led to some practice on avoiding being webbed as any other race.
basically it's similar to how you can sneak up and stick a person into a headlock and choke them out giving you a Free que de grace.
that said the difference between a spider killing you with a bite while being webbed and you getting one shot from a goblin getting a lucky hit on your head is just the same.
also you get the same chance as well so it's pretty even all though. 
still waiting for toadyone to add giant cave spider people so I don't have to mod that stuff into brown recluse folks all the time.
like I still think you can scale 1 tile walls with minecarts if you throw them up properly. that's how I climb stuff in the old days.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: puke on December 29, 2015, 01:47:14 pm
Some thoughts on different creature types and their strengths:

Venomous:  I'm not sure this helps, the poison triggers about half the time (anecdotally.  real odds may be different.) I injected some poison into the head and necks of some gobbos, and there was a minor bit of pain and stunned-ness.  I'm not sure if they were stunned due to the strike, or due to the venom.  Hard to tell.

Multi-arms:  Lots of fun, great for wrestling or

Brown Recluse vs Bark Scorpion:

about the same size, both have poison, but the Scorpion comes with a sting and some pincers which are handy natural weapons.  for this reason, it gets my preference.

Since both are smaller than normal, they have to multi-grasp longswords and most normal weapons.  they are also fairly weak and become over-encumbered easily. 

They can't wear standard armor sizes, so that reduces their possible load, but it also makes them squishier.  You can still over burden them when you put heavy weapons and / or shields in all their hands.

I have ripped off limbs with single pincer strikes, so those seem as powerful as weapons.  Scorps are lots of fun, but I wouldn't consider them *STRONG*.

Elephant Seal Man:

Huge, can one-hand 2H weapons with ease.  No armor, but their size gives them some ability to shrug off damage.  No legs, so they move pretty slow and have a hard time chasing things down.

as far as the ability to go up against big monsters or beat down hordes of little guys, these guys are better than anything else I've played prior to .04

Elephant Man:

Going by the raws, these should be objectively superior to the ESM in all ways.  Bigger, can gore, grasping trunk, has legs.  Just objectively better.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 29, 2015, 01:56:09 pm
The zombies created by the mummies about about the strength the typical zombie should be. They're just a nice workout for anyone with moderate skill. The zombies created by evil clouds should be much more powerful because they're so rare. And I think the necro towers have a nice blend between those extremes. Those shouldn't change, no matter how badly you want your necromancy right away.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Aleksanderus on December 29, 2015, 02:09:21 pm
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
Am I the only one who thinks that zombies are easy?!
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 02:35:39 pm
The zombies created by the mummies about about the strength the typical zombie should be. They're just a nice workout for anyone with moderate skill. The zombies created by evil clouds should be much more powerful because they're so rare. And I think the necro towers have a nice blend between those extremes. Those shouldn't change, no matter how badly you want your necromancy right away.
that's because those zombies are skeletons and naked.
do note those skeletons are naked. wearing clothes = op as shit, nudist zombie skeletons = everyone okay with this.

(http://www.truimagz.com/host/fortcrush2/de/know-your-undead.png)
also the one mummy spawns are just baby zombies fresh from the world, than their lock in a tower training all day brothers who kinda act as an alternate to vaults.

that said
a necro tower full of zombies can and will still kill you. Zombies are indeed way overpowered.
The problem with zombies is not only that their absurd stats will make them parry everything all the time, but also that their absurd strength means that their muscle tissue is fucking unbreachable at the same time.

And if that's not overpowered as fuck then I don't know what is.
Am I the only one who thinks that zombies are easy?!
you're not the only one.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 29, 2015, 02:48:33 pm
I agree, most zombies are easy, but you get the rare one with enough meat and sinew on him to be a struggle to hack through, and then decapitation/dismemberment still doesn't take him down. The presence of one of those in an otherwise weak zombie horde is pretty terrifying, you don't have a chance unless you can separate him from the rest to deal with 1-on-1. Necro towers always have at least one of those.

And I also agree that webbing is seriously imba. The rate and spread is just stupid, there's not a single counter to it.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: puke on December 29, 2015, 02:55:33 pm
so, in the new update with the zombie nerf, does the strength bonus from zombification and vamping no longer add physical size like it used to?

Part of the old OP-ness, if I understand correctly, was that the strength boost added muscle mass which increased a creatures physical size and made it harder to cut through.  This is why speed would sometimes drop after vampification; the added size/bulk slowed a creature down even after the strength boost.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 03:03:51 pm
I agree, most zombies are easy, but you get the rare one with enough meat and sinew on him to be a struggle to hack through, and then decapitation/dismemberment still doesn't take him down. The presence of one of those in an otherwise weak zombie horde is pretty terrifying, you don't have a chance unless you can separate him from the rest to deal with 1-on-1. Necro towers always have at least one of those.

And I also agree that webbing is seriously imba. The rate and spread is just stupid, there's not a single counter to it.
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
if anything of my spider escapades goblins > spiders.
that said I think this is where my views get bias as I kinda go if I can't beat them, join them in adventure mode like bronze colossus.
which brings back to the topic, that one person who modded in sperm whalemen could have walk themselves into an evil biome and gotten murked leading to being even stronger sperm whalemen to take on those reanimated zombies...or walk past and gotten the tome/book. wonder if we getting blood and/or amethystmen playable in the next update?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 29, 2015, 03:12:52 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 04:40:55 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.

Though I have to say one was field advantage and the other is ambushed.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 29, 2015, 04:57:06 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.
I missed the part of the story where you describe their webbing. They must have had webbing if you thought there was a point to mentioning it. How about fireballs? Are those 3 the only demons you have faced? Because I've seen and soloed a wide variety, but those aren't relevant to this point: Webbing Is IMBA.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 05:22:26 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.
That's only an effective counter if you control the approach and battlefield, as with titans. But in adventurer mode you don't encounter GCSs all unless they have the drop on you, and it's already over by the time you see them. Due to rate and spread of the webbing attack, companions are no help. FBs and Vault Guardians get a similar advantage; in order to get them in your visual range to attack, you have to come within a very dangerous radius. Demons have the overwhelming advantage of numbers; in adventurer mode you can't get an army strong enough to stand up to them.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even waste military on them in fortress mode; I'd lock down, use traps, siege weaponry, anything but a head on confrontation.

I had demons literal hell demons pop up while I was on fortress guard duty and the solution to that was recruiting a bunch of archers and crossbowmen a few axe folks and telling them to wait for me at the fortress entrance.
we bag like 3 demons back in 40.x vanilla era. said era had a demon decimate my zombie army said army was made up of naked dudes in 20 to the armor adventurers of 17.
I missed the part of the story where you describe their webbing. They must have had webbing if you thought there was a point to mentioning it. How about fireballs? Are those 3 the only demons you have faced? Because I've seen and soloed a wide variety, but those aren't relevant to this point: Webbing Is IMBA.
those demons had no webbing, they just walk up and gored loads of stuff.  good thing spider people are immune to webbing.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Arcvasti on December 29, 2015, 05:59:36 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.

Preliminary testing indicates that spider people have [WEBIMMUNE], letting them walk through webs with impunity.



Testing in arena mode, spider people don't stop getting more ridiculous. They have [NO_PAIN], no bones to chip, no throat to strangle. That plus their ability to use a bunch of shields at once makes them absurdly robust, even with their small size.

Arena testing of elephant seal men against brown recluse men[Proficient in all relevant skills, each wielding an iron shortsword. Brown recluse man gets four shields, because that's how many adventurer brown recluse men spawn with] reveals brown recluse men win nearly every time. Elephant seal men's raw strength lets them pulp any body part even with blade slaps, but they can rarely land that hit somewhere useful and have a hard time getting past the shield wall. On the other hand, Brown Recluse men often fracture or chip bones when they hit and only have to get through ONE shield. Assuming control of the elephant seal man, I was able to win by getting a lucky hit on the weapon arm and then pulping all four shield arms. I also won as the brown recluse man by stabbing whichever body part was easiest to hit until my opponent gave into pain and then stabbing the head until I finally won. The brown recluse men still die a third of the time[Including straight victories from the Elephant Seal men] from post-victory blood loss. Giving the elephant seal man a hammer instead of a short sword didn't change matters much either, despite it being better suited to their awesome strength and size.



Giant tortoise men, on the other hand, performed significantly better, winning most of their fights against brown recluse men. The main cause of why appears to be their much increased resistance to giving in to pain. Whereas one strike would cripple an elephant seal man, the giant tortoise men seem much more resistant to giving into pain, perhaps because of how flippers are processed bonewise. With them, if neither side landed an immediately lethal blow, the brown recluse men would usually bleed out before they could get a fatal shot on their opponent. Interestingly, none of the giant tortoise men retracted into their shell whatsoever, unless I assumed control and made them do it. Giving both sides steel weapons favourised the brown recluse men, since they could now sometimes make the giant tortoise men give into pain. The giant tortoise men still won most of the time, however.

Giant tortoise men against elephant seal men is a toss-up though. Neither side has any real advantage, as far as I can tell.

Giant cave spiders, for reference, easily kill elephant seal men. I was able to defeat one as a giant tortoise man by retreating into my shell and waiting until the spider fell unconscious from exhaustion before killing it. Brown recluse men easily kill giant cave spiders.



These results demonstrate the following:

-Elephant seal men, while somewhat larger and stronger then giant tortoise men, are nonetheless less robust and more prone to giving in to pain.
-Brown recluse men, despite having many arms and numerous useful tags like [NO_PAIN] and [WEBIMMUNE], suffer due to their small size.
-Giant tortoise men are large, strong and robust with the potent ability to withdraw into their shell. All in all, pretty good with no glaring disadvantages.

Honestly, despite my personal preference for brown recluse men, giant tortoise men seem to be the best here.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 29, 2015, 06:04:46 pm
What about elephant men though? They're bigger, have powerful tusk attacks, and I think I heard that they get a third grasp in their trunk.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Arcvasti on December 29, 2015, 06:09:06 pm
What about elephant men though? They're bigger, have powerful tusk attacks, and I think I heard that they get a third grasp in their trunk.

Yeah, they'd probably push out elephant seal men completely for top three animal characters. An extra shield, more sharp things and more size and strength would make them pretty ridiculous. Still vulnerable to webbers and giving into pain, but otherwise really good.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 29, 2015, 06:11:08 pm
the counter to it is range attacks and companions basically anything that solved the problem giant cave spiders had in Fort mode would be the solution in adventure mode...outside of cage traps.

Preliminary testing indicates that spider people have [WEBIMMUNE], letting them walk through webs with impunity.



Testing in arena mode, spider people don't stop getting more ridiculous. They have [NO_PAIN], no bones to chip, no throat to strangle. That plus their ability to use a bunch of shields at once makes them absurdly robust, even with their small size.

Arena testing of elephant seal men against brown recluse men[Proficient in all relevant skills, each wielding an iron shortsword. Brown recluse man gets four shields, because that's how many adventurer brown recluse men spawn with] reveals brown recluse men win nearly every time. Elephant seal men's raw strength lets them pulp any body part even with blade slaps, but they can rarely land that hit somewhere useful and have a hard time getting past the shield wall. On the other hand, Brown Recluse men often fracture or chip bones when they hit and only have to get through ONE shield. Assuming control of the elephant seal man, I was able to win by getting a lucky hit on the weapon arm and then pulping all four shield arms. I also won as the brown recluse man by stabbing whichever body part was easiest to hit until my opponent gave into pain and then stabbing the head until I finally won. The brown recluse men still die a third of the time[Including straight victories from the Elephant Seal men] from post-victory blood loss. Giving the elephant seal man a hammer instead of a short sword didn't change matters much either, despite it being better suited to their awesome strength and size.



Giant tortoise men, on the other hand, performed significantly better, winning most of their fights against brown recluse men. The main cause of why appears to be their much increased resistance to giving in to pain. Whereas one strike would cripple an elephant seal man, the giant tortoise men seem much more resistant to giving into pain, perhaps because of how flippers are processed bonewise. With them, if neither side landed an immediately lethal blow, the brown recluse men would usually bleed out before they could get a fatal shot on their opponent. Interestingly, none of the giant tortoise men retracted into their shell whatsoever, unless I assumed control and made them do it. Giving both sides steel weapons favourised the brown recluse men, since they could now sometimes make the giant tortoise men give into pain. The giant tortoise men still won most of the time, however.

Giant tortoise men against elephant seal men is a toss-up though. Neither side has any real advantage, as far as I can tell.

Giant cave spiders, for reference, easily kill elephant seal men. I was able to defeat one as a giant tortoise man by retreating into my shell and waiting until the spider fell unconscious from exhaustion before killing it. Brown recluse men easily kill giant cave spiders.



These results demonstrate the following:

-Elephant seal men, while somewhat larger and stronger then giant tortoise men, are nonetheless less robust and more prone to giving in to pain.
-Brown recluse men, despite having many arms and numerous useful tags like [NO_PAIN] and [WEBIMMUNE], suffer due to their small size.
-Giant tortoise men are large, strong and robust with the potent ability to withdraw into their shell. All in all, pretty good with no glaring disadvantages.

Honestly, despite my personal preference for brown recluse men, giant tortoise men seem to be the best here.

elephant seal men, pros : huge, can backpack just about everything, if you boost sneak you get by far. cons : huge so sneaking gonna be tricky, can take pain so you could pass out and die to someone breaking your leg, if you don't dump points into any attack you're not going to capitalize on the size boost.
Spider folks, pros : safe from bogeymen, don't stun, can't feel pain, immune to own race webs holds many weapons. Cons : small and cute, can't shoot webs , while they can heal fast they have a small damage thresh-hold, goblins can one punch you to death in wonderful ways, while safe from bogeyman if they provoke any attack they will get chumped.

Turtle folk : pros: peasants/Heroes/demigods in a half shell, Turtle power. Cons: human warlords don't cut them any slack.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: ShinQuickMan on December 29, 2015, 10:54:19 pm
Don't forget: spider people can't swim. That's a huge detriment to exploration.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Comito on December 29, 2015, 11:06:15 pm
Couldn't they just jump across rivers?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Arcvasti on December 30, 2015, 12:44:36 am
Couldn't they just jump across rivers?

Sometimes there's nowhere QUITE thin enough to jump all the way across and you just have to flounder one or two tiles upways. Granted, that could be fatal if the temparature immediately drops or you get REALLY unlucky with your flailing.

You can still climb, though. Usually there's a tree somewhere along the length of a river. Its not usually that much of a problem, honestly.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 30, 2015, 12:52:19 am
They might get stuck behind a real river though. I don't just mean those streams or Brooks that are normally called rivers, I mean real rivers. The kind of river that takes up more than a whole screen. They have no hope of crossing one of those if they came across it. They are quite rare though, so I wouldn't consider it too big of a deal.

Also I've heard some more and it seems like elephant men probably don't have grasp trunks? I can't really check right now, it'd be nice if someone could do so.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: SMASH! on December 30, 2015, 04:07:34 am
Some arena tests. Elephant person can throw a goblin this far:
(http://i.imgur.com/RfuDnLu.png)(http://i.imgur.com/W5iIsBK.png)
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 30, 2015, 04:35:00 am
well checking the raws it seems like jumping spiders don't need sleep also lacking the gait to swim makes it impossible for you to say do the action.
welllp.

edit: wait SPIDERS CANT SWIM.
this goes for the giant cave spider as well.
you could just flood them if you have water and a minecart or uhh jump into a pool of water and avoid dying.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: olopi on December 30, 2015, 10:28:54 am
Another question to keep in mind is the ability to jump, since it's really helpful both in and out of combat.
I'm not sure about giant Tortoise men, but on a recent desert tortoise man I was unable to.
Elephant Seal men can't jump either, I know this from expeience.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: thvaz on December 30, 2015, 01:12:24 pm
Rhinoceros men are quite powerful with their two tusks to gore and great size.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 30, 2015, 01:18:02 pm
What rhino has 2 tusks?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: k33n on December 30, 2015, 03:46:21 pm


Besides misspelling a sentence you never touched the concept of following generic tropes and what meaning that has at all in fiction (ie, no meaning to a unique fictional setting), and analysis of the "gameplay elements" would have a tremendous list of things before Zambys (ie UI and the plethora of bugs).
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Bloax on December 30, 2015, 07:34:54 pm
who the fuck cares about things that weren't mentioned because they were irrelevant to the topic (ZOMBIES ARE OP) and misspellings somewhere in a gargantuan rant

people who want an excuse to dismiss a point, that's who
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: ShinQuickMan on December 30, 2015, 11:00:22 pm
Couldn't they just jump across rivers?

They might get stuck behind a real river though. I don't just mean those streams or Brooks that are normally called rivers, I mean real rivers. The kind of river that takes up more than a whole screen. They have no hope of crossing one of those if they came across it. They are quite rare though, so I wouldn't consider it too big of a deal.
Not just rivers. There's oceans and cavern lakes, too. Best case scenario, you can go a long way around, or, for the former, wait until the ocean freezes and run like hell. Worst case, you either have to go back or are basically stuck with no way out. Either way, it's either a PITA or game over. Of course, the ocean problem is no big deal in region worlds.

Also I've heard some more and it seems like elephant men probably don't have grasp trunks? I can't really check right now, it'd be nice if someone could do so.
Just checked. Nope.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on December 31, 2015, 01:22:59 am
Couldn't they just jump across rivers?

They might get stuck behind a real river though. I don't just mean those streams or Brooks that are normally called rivers, I mean real rivers. The kind of river that takes up more than a whole screen. They have no hope of crossing one of those if they came across it. They are quite rare though, so I wouldn't consider it too big of a deal.
Not just rivers. There's oceans and cavern lakes, too. Best case scenario, you can go a long way around, or, for the former, wait until the ocean freezes and run like hell. Worst case, you either have to go back or are basically stuck with no way out. Either way, it's either a PITA or game over. Of course, the ocean problem is no big deal in region worlds.

Also I've heard some more and it seems like elephant men probably don't have grasp trunks? I can't really check right now, it'd be nice if someone could do so.
Just checked. Nope.
that's a not even worst case scenario as frozen oceans are alot more deadlier than say a normal one, I mean a frozen ocean has a chance of just straight up incasing you in ice if you go far to deep into one.
said spider person could just become a vampire and avoid needing to breathe.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Nibblewerfer on December 31, 2015, 01:40:30 am
They are not necessarily strong, but if I remember correctly Impala and Ibex men can wear dwarf armor which definitely helps + they have horns but I have not tested to see if they can wear helmets.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: thvaz on December 31, 2015, 04:09:25 am
What rhino has 2 tusks?

I meant horns.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Uzu Bash on December 31, 2015, 05:47:50 am
What rhino has 2 tusks?

I meant horns.
ANd you counted them?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Salperticon on April 23, 2016, 07:38:44 am
I know, it's been a while since this thread was used. But the topic kind of fits and it was a good read so far, so I thought I'd rather add to it instead of opening a new one.

As far as I have read until now, there seem to be three types of animal people favoured.
The spider men for the multiple limbs, the elephant men for the sheer size and strength, and the turtle / turtoise men for the ability to withdraw into their shell.

But how about wearing armour?
Assuming I have no clue about modding or how to properly use DFHack and just want to play the game (so I cannot "make" suitable armour for the three types suggested above), would it be worth to pick something more dwarf sized, so it can wear armour?

Three species come to mind in particular:
- The wild boar man, with a size of 75,000 being the largest animal man who is still able to wear (human) armour.
   - Snapping turtle men sound like a very tempting alternative, since they are of the same size accoring to the List of creatures by adult size (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:List_of_creatures_by_adult_size) in the Wiki. But as far as I can tell, that entry is wrong. The wiki page of the snapping turtle men states their size as 50,000, which seems to be correct; and too small for armour.
- The hyena / cougar man, with their size of 65,000 being able to wear both dwarven and human sized armour.
- The cheetah man, with their standard movement speed of 40 kph being ~33% quicker than other races - and they can still wear dwarven sized armour.

Could those three be an alternative to the ones mentioned above?
Or would the advantages of the others outweigh the armour?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: puke on April 23, 2016, 08:01:58 am
I haven't tried it yet, but I hear you can make any sized armor at your fortress now.  So you should be able to armor up your elephant man.

You man need animal man immigrants in your fort to be able to do it?  Not sure.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on April 23, 2016, 12:08:08 pm
I haven't tried it yet, but I hear you can make any sized armor at your fortress now.  So you should be able to armor up your elephant man.

You man need animal man immigrants in your fort to be able to do it?  Not sure.
which is as easy as moving your adventurer animal person to the fort. and by easy I mean you may or may not have to trek all the way to a nearest player fort to get free custom made armor. but yeah probably doable.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 23, 2016, 01:13:07 pm
If you do make armor for an elephant man adventurer, then you're going to want very high armor user skill, as a singular piece of armor will be massive and probably completely weigh you down without very high armor user skill. However, there is a benefit to this, in that the armor is also incredibly thick. Elephant men are 1/4 the size of demons, and back when demons still took over human civilizations, just their clothing would be enough to block pretty much any weapon's attacks. So if you get actual metal armor, you'll pretty much just be invincible.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on April 23, 2016, 09:25:54 pm
If you do make armor for an elephant man adventurer, then you're going to want very high armor user skill, as a singular piece of armor will be massive and probably completely weigh you down without very high armor user skill. However, there is a benefit to this, in that the armor is also incredibly thick. Elephant men are 1/4 the size of demons, and back when demons still took over human civilizations, just their clothing would be enough to block pretty much any weapon's attacks. So if you get actual metal armor, you'll pretty much just be invincible.
The Elephant Man's achilles heel however is his trunk. Impossible to protect with armour. Will soon go flying off in an arc. Not sure if trunk damage will cause fatal bleeding or pain though...
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Quartz_Mace on April 24, 2016, 02:15:22 pm
You could always build a trap that consists solely of serrated disks and walk into it fully armoured. It could quickly improve armour skill, as well as surgically removing your trunk so that it won't be a problem later. In all seriousness though, I wonder how much metal is required to fully armour an elephant man.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 03:21:12 pm
The Elephant Man's achilles heel however is his trunk. Impossible to protect with armour. Will soon go flying off in an arc. Not sure if trunk damage will cause fatal bleeding or pain though...

Then what about other types of animalmen? Rhinocerous Men are significnatly smaller (a mere 1.5 tons to the elephantman's 2.5 tons) but they shouldn't have any such vulnerability.  (Their horn might get sheered off, but I don't think that counts for pain or bleeding.)  Plus, they're still over twenty times the size of a dwarf, and will have armor twenty times as thick.  (With candy robes over steel breastplates and candy mail FTW!)
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 24, 2016, 07:22:14 pm
The Elephant Man's achilles heel however is his trunk. Impossible to protect with armour. Will soon go flying off in an arc. Not sure if trunk damage will cause fatal bleeding or pain though...

Then what about other types of animalmen? Rhinocerous Men are significnatly smaller (a mere 1.5 tons to the elephantman's 2.5 tons) but they shouldn't have any such vulnerability.  (Their horn might get sheered off, but I don't think that counts for pain or bleeding.)  Plus, they're still over twenty times the size of a dwarf, and will have armor twenty times as thick.  (With candy robes over steel breastplates and candy mail FTW!)
Most of the trunk is cartilage, which is similarly lacking in pain receptors or blood vessels, meaning it's just one size 200 body part with some skin that you're going to lose in blood, which might have an impact if you're also getting two arms severed, but your arms aren't getting severed with full armor. The trunk does have the [SMELL] token though, which might mean you'd lose your not very useful sense of smell. So, you become more likely to lose your sense of smell as an elephantman, but there's no real danger other than that.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 24, 2016, 07:51:47 pm
However, doesn't cartilage (unless modded) never heal, and continuously bleed, functionally winding up a gradual death sentence the first time cartilage is struck? 

Granted, you could try to sever the trunk purposefully, then fast-travel the same way you used to be able to melt off all your fat to become fireproof...
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Eric Blank on April 25, 2016, 11:30:34 pm
I've never had someone die of blood loss after losing their nose, so assuming the trunk is the same it shouldn't be a threat with regards to bleeding to death. An infection is a distinct possiblity, however.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Dyret on April 26, 2016, 02:23:01 am
However, doesn't cartilage (unless modded) never heal, and continuously bleed, functionally winding up a gradual death sentence the first time cartilage is struck?

It'll stop bleeding like anything else, but it won't heal, so you'll die from infection. Same with nails.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 26, 2016, 09:46:38 am
Interesting.

Of playable animal people capable of flight, swan men are the strongest. Still pretty weak and fragile, though.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: DrewLegend on April 26, 2016, 11:53:40 pm
Adder man? I just made a new IWC adventurer earlier and checked for a adder man but there was none. Are they available in vanilla DF?
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on April 30, 2016, 05:52:11 am
Adder man? I just made a new IWC adventurer earlier and checked for a adder man but there was none. Are they available in vanilla DF?

They do still exist. Dont know if they are playable.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Eric Blank on April 30, 2016, 06:06:07 am
Might be that you're not getting populations of them on those worlds youve used. The animal-person would only be available for play if the world has a biome with that species present. No wild population, no adventuring.

Double check in your world sites and pops file to see if theyre even present.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on May 01, 2016, 12:06:59 pm
Also for the ones choosing spidermen with many weapons, the way I understand it choosing many more shields is superior since it increases the chance to block stuff by a lot while still allowing you to attack with them.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 01, 2016, 02:24:33 pm
Also for the ones choosing spidermen with many weapons, the way I understand it choosing many more shields is superior since it increases the chance to block stuff by a lot while still allowing you to attack with them.
Well you can also block with weapons, so I imagine at the point of having six weapons, the difference between shield and weapon doesn't matter much because you're pretty much invincible anyway. Except when taking ranged weapons and fire into account. Arrows are a lot harder to block with weapons, and fire cones can't be blocked with them at all. I'd go with, 2 shields then 4 different weapons as pretty much ideal.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Untrustedlife on May 01, 2016, 05:44:00 pm
Elephant men are huge.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Arcvasti on May 01, 2016, 06:28:48 pm
Also for the ones choosing spidermen with many weapons, the way I understand it choosing many more shields is superior since it increases the chance to block stuff by a lot while still allowing you to attack with them.
Well you can also block with weapons, so I imagine at the point of having six weapons, the difference between shield and weapon doesn't matter much because you're pretty much invincible anyway. Except when taking ranged weapons and fire into account. Arrows are a lot harder to block with weapons, and fire cones can't be blocked with them at all. I'd go with, 2 shields then 4 different weapons as pretty much ideal.

I prefer two shields, 2 one-handed weapons and then a two-handed weapon. Sometimes you want to block things, sometimes you want to sever ALL THE LIMBS and sometimes you want to shove a pike into someone's sternum. Being able to do all of those at once is pretty nifty.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Eric Blank on May 02, 2016, 02:54:03 am
A spear, a warhammer, a long sword, a great axe and your trusty copper shield. All the murder one could possibly need.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: King Kitteh on May 02, 2016, 04:49:51 am
Adder man? I just made a new IWC adventurer earlier and checked for a adder man but there was none. Are they available in vanilla DF?

I played as a rattlesnake man once, and I can tell you, it wasn't that great. Your bite is often deflected by mere clothing and even if you land a bite, it takes so many injections to kill something.

I made a cat sick in a few bites, but I bit a horse a two dozen times and it was still fine. You'll barely give yourself an edge in battle because the poison takes too long to do anything significant.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on May 03, 2016, 12:13:24 pm
Also for the ones choosing spidermen with many weapons, the way I understand it choosing many more shields is superior since it increases the chance to block stuff by a lot while still allowing you to attack with them.
Well you can also block with weapons, so I imagine at the point of having six weapons, the difference between shield and weapon doesn't matter much because you're pretty much invincible anyway. Except when taking ranged weapons and fire into account. Arrows are a lot harder to block with weapons, and fire cones can't be blocked with them at all. I'd go with, 2 shields then 4 different weapons as pretty much ideal.

I would probably go with 3 shields and 3 weps. One spear, one warhammer and one axe. Since you know slashing, blunt and piercing. Would consider changing one shield for a free hand to throw stuff with though because that is too good in adventure mode.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: puke on May 03, 2016, 12:28:52 pm
One spear, one warhammer and one axe. Since you know slashing, blunt and piercing

Or just pack a halberd and call it a day.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on May 05, 2016, 04:48:13 am
One spear, one warhammer and one axe. Since you know slashing, blunt and piercing

Or just pack a halberd and call it a day.

To be fair a scourge, a flail and a sword/spear is probably the best due to how weapons work. Scourges and flails are extremely quick weapons. It is unfortunate that its hard to get them in good quality.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Bumber on May 06, 2016, 04:21:52 am
One spear, one warhammer and one axe. Since you know slashing, blunt and piercing

Or just pack a halberd and call it a day.

To be fair a scourge, a flail and a sword/spear is probably the best due to how weapons work. Scourges and flails are extremely quick weapons. It is unfortunate that its hard to get them in good quality.
I'm pretty sure scourges are held to be the worst weapon in the game. An edged weapon with no penetration to speak of.

Whips, on the other hand, are great. Over double the velocity, contact area of 1, and blunt (doesn't need penetration.) Goes through armor, chips bones, knocks foes out, goes through skulls.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 06, 2016, 08:47:04 pm
One spear, one warhammer and one axe. Since you know slashing, blunt and piercing

Or just pack a halberd and call it a day.

To be fair a scourge, a flail and a sword/spear is probably the best due to how weapons work. Scourges and flails are extremely quick weapons. It is unfortunate that its hard to get them in good quality.
I'm pretty sure scourges are held to be the worst weapon in the game. An edged weapon with no penetration to speak of.

Whips, on the other hand, are great. Over double the velocity, contact area of 1, and blunt (doesn't need penetration.) Goes through armor, chips bones, knocks foes out, goes through skulls.
Yeah, I was going to say something about that. Scourges have good velocity for an edged weapon, but they need a lot more than just velocity to be good. Whips do have the downside of being the only weapon with an attack speed other than 3:3, that being 4:4. So standard speed attacks will be as slow as normal heavy attacks, but it's probably worth it still.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on May 08, 2016, 02:26:11 pm
I'm pretty sure scourges are held to be the worst weapon in the game. An edged weapon with no penetration to speak of.

Whips, on the other hand, are great. Over double the velocity, contact area of 1, and blunt (doesn't need penetration.) Goes through armor, chips bones, knocks foes out, goes through skulls.

Fair enough, mustve mixed them both up. I generally stick with a named/masterwork weapon of steel since they are pretty damn good to begin with. A whip should probably be made out of the same materials as other blunt weapons though.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Findulidas on May 11, 2016, 12:48:37 am
Some other animal men with fun features must be added to the list:

Capybara men! Being completely amphibious and almost exactly the size of a dwarf is pretty neat. Sleeping in the middle a murky pool is helpful (and fun if its a cold biome). Hippo men are also amphibious, but they cant jump, are slower than the average creature and are also big enough to not be able to wear any normal armor. They are strong though.

Bear men of all sorts also seem to be able to climb with thier feet, which means you can fight and climb at the same time. Not to mention they are pretty damn huge and strong. Grizzly bear men seem to be the largest since polar bear men cant climb. You probably wouldnt want to start in a freezing zone anyway due to the water problems you will get.

I havent tried this yet but it seems many of the insect men, like beetle men, dont need to sleep (due to the [NO_SLEEP] token). I personally find this very helpful in adventure mode since waiting for dawn is much less dangerous than sleeping. Many of them also seem to be able to climb with thier feet alone.

Even though it says axolotl can regrow limbs it doesnt seem to be supported neither in the raws and in the game. Including for the axolotl men. They dont even seem to have regenerating tissues.

Cheetah men actually are quicker than the average humanoid. They are also exactly the size of a dwarf.

Echidna men are actually a fair bit thougher than most other animal men thier sizes and can go into a shell like tortoise men. Unfortunately they are 30% smaller than dwarves which mean that they are pretty weak and cant wear normal armor.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on May 23, 2016, 01:42:45 am
Are their any that can shoot webs? I've checked and I see no reason why they wouldn't, but I don't know of any that do.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: King Kitteh on May 23, 2016, 01:47:26 am
Are their any that can shoot webs? I've checked and I see no reason why they wouldn't, but I don't know of any that do.

No, there aren't sadly. Only giant cave spiders and randomly generated creatures do that.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on May 23, 2016, 02:48:17 am
Are their any that can shoot webs? I've checked and I see no reason why they wouldn't, but I don't know of any that do.

No, there aren't sadly. Only giant cave spiders and randomly generated creatures do that.
no but you can pick up and throw webs as the spider folk.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 23, 2016, 03:08:41 pm
No.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on May 23, 2016, 07:24:04 pm
No.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder1/web-placement.gif)
yeah this gif comes from a modded save but you can totally pick up and throw the webbing in vanilla.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: TheFlame52 on May 23, 2016, 07:30:33 pm
I meant that to webbing animal men in vanilla.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: neotemplar on June 09, 2016, 12:30:58 pm
I gotta say, saltwater crocodile men are fun characters.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on June 09, 2016, 01:13:58 pm
so if you're planning to move an elephantman adventurer into a fort beware they must be grazers or something because they seem to starve in areas with no grass in fort mode
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on June 09, 2016, 08:11:38 pm
so if you're planning to move an elephantman adventurer into a fort beware they must be grazers or something because they seem to starve in areas with no grass in fort mode
I think (vaguely recall) they're vegetarian. So that might be hurting them if all you have to eat is fine mole dog roasts (and your grassy areas might be growing something edible for them).

I had a fortress with an elephant man ex-adventurer tavern keeper and he seemed to do OK hanging out in the non-grassy tavern all day. Was dying of thirst on unretire, but was fine once he'd grabbed a drink.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Somebodyelse on June 10, 2016, 04:26:46 am
I played as a rattlesnake man once, and I can tell you, it wasn't that great. Your bite is often deflected by mere clothing and even if you land a bite, it takes so many injections to kill something.

I made a cat sick in a few bites, but I bit a horse a two dozen times and it was still fine. You'll barely give yourself an edge in battle because the poison takes too long to do anything significant.

Rattlesnake vemon isn't all the powerful in the short term. Try a black mamba man next time. Their venom can cause unconsciousness and complete paralysis. Last time I tried one I remember knocking an elephant out in a couple of bites.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Colev0 on June 22, 2016, 02:29:06 pm
Sort of off-topic: has anyone noticed anything strange about animal people in fort mode? They seem to move super slowly on my end, but I'm beginning to think that I've got a special case on my hands.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: TheNosferatu on June 22, 2016, 02:32:27 pm
Since the spider people seem to be popular due to the many limbs and useful traits, wouldn't a flying insect man be also good? Flying, multiple limbs, some probably have a natural weapon. A mosquito man using just shields, using the mouth to attack and drain blood might be a lethal adventurer. Though, unlikely to find one that can wear armor, I guess.

Also, I can vouch for Rhino men being very strong. Probably not the strongest but the horns are lethal and a punch sends regular enemies flying, squashing limbs etc.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Legendary Marksdorf on June 22, 2016, 05:40:40 pm
Since the spider people seem to be popular due to the many limbs and useful traits, wouldn't a flying insect man be also good? Flying, multiple limbs, some probably have a natural weapon. A mosquito man using just shields, using the mouth to attack and drain blood might be a lethal adventurer. Though, unlikely to find one that can wear armor, I guess.

The way mosquito men drain blood is the same way vampires do it, which means you can only use it against unconscious people, but why would you do that if you can just headshot them since they're unconscious ? So not very useful battle wise, it can replace water/food tho as it fills back up both the hunger and thirst levels.

Also using just shields is good for blocking but even with very high misc object user skill they deal next to no damage because they weight practically nothing and the damage of misc objects seems to be based mostly on their weight.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Rumrusher on June 22, 2016, 07:49:34 pm
Since the spider people seem to be popular due to the many limbs and useful traits, wouldn't a flying insect man be also good? Flying, multiple limbs, some probably have a natural weapon. A mosquito man using just shields, using the mouth to attack and drain blood might be a lethal adventurer. Though, unlikely to find one that can wear armor, I guess.

The way mosquito men drain blood is the same way vampires do it, which means you can only use it against unconscious people, but why would you do that if you can just headshot them since they're unconscious ? So not very useful battle wise, it can replace water/food tho as it fills back up both the hunger and thirst levels.

Also using just shields is good for blocking but even with very high misc object user skill they deal next to no damage because they weight practically nothing and the damage of misc objects seems to be based mostly on their weight.
do note only Mosquito women has bloodsucker the males don't which is kinda a funny way to learn this.
you can probably gain vampirism through finding a vampire and draining them.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 22, 2016, 09:12:54 pm
The way mosquito men drain blood is the same way vampires do it
No it isn't. Mosquito women drain blood when they bite someone and break the skin. They have [SPECIALATTACK_SUCK_BLOOD:25:50] on their bite. Vampires have [BLOODSUCKER].

you can probably gain vampirism through finding a vampire and draining them.
This works.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: King Kitteh on September 30, 2016, 09:00:19 pm
Sort of off-topic: has anyone noticed anything strange about animal people in fort mode? They seem to move super slowly on my end, but I'm beginning to think that I've got a special case on my hands.
A bit of a Necro, but just to answer this question.

Animal men have the [MEANDERER] tag. It makes them wander about aimlessly when they have no job. When they get a job they have to fight the meandering instinct, so they end up dawdling over to their job site very slowly, often taking steps in the wrong direction along the way.

I tried making a Tiger man civ once and I had to remove the tag because nothing was getting done in Fort Mode.
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Colev0 on October 01, 2016, 11:39:10 am
Sort of off-topic: has anyone noticed anything strange about animal people in fort mode? They seem to move super slowly on my end, but I'm beginning to think that I've got a special case on my hands.
A bit of a Necro, but just to answer this question.

Animal men have the [MEANDERER] tag. It makes them wander about aimlessly when they have no job. When they get a job they have to fight the meandering instinct, so they end up dawdling over to their job site very slowly, often taking steps in the wrong direction along the way.

I tried making a Tiger man civ once and I had to remove the tag because nothing was getting done in Fort Mode.

Yeah, I've discovered this, as well. The easy fix seems to be adding [CV_REMOVE_TAG:MEANDERER] to the raw file that contains the [CREATURE_VARIATION] interactions. I'm still not sure if this produces any unintended behaviors, otherwise I'd push for it to be implemented.

Thanks for the reply!
Title: Re: Strongest base playable animal character?
Post by: Evans on October 04, 2016, 04:19:14 am
Sort of off-topic: has anyone noticed anything strange about animal people in fort mode? They seem to move super slowly on my end, but I'm beginning to think that I've got a special case on my hands.
A bit of a Necro, but just to answer this question.

Animal men have the [MEANDERER] tag. It makes them wander about aimlessly when they have no job. When they get a job they have to fight the meandering instinct, so they end up dawdling over to their job site very slowly, often taking steps in the wrong direction along the way.

I tried making a Tiger man civ once and I had to remove the tag because nothing was getting done in Fort Mode.

Yeah, I've discovered this, as well. The easy fix seems to be adding [CV_REMOVE_TAG:MEANDERER] to the raw file that contains the [CREATURE_VARIATION] interactions. I'm still not sure if this produces any unintended behaviors, otherwise I'd push for it to be implemented.

Thanks for the reply!
The only annoying result is that wild animal men entering your territory will be moving around rather fast instead of slowly meandering.
The ones that are part of a fort will behave as dwarves.