Post by: The_Explorer on April 25, 2022, 09:21:22 pm
I've used it for a while to keep up to date on china stuff, but now will look for other sources. Most bigger news companies don't focus on china sadly, and almost none do in general, I just liked reading what people IN china were talking about in terms of china/taiwan/covid stuff. But those days are gone. Twitter was getting too filled with fake stuff and misinformation (either on purpose or just spread unknowingly) anyway.
Any recommendations?
Post by: Frumple on April 25, 2022, 10:49:05 pm
Post by: Nopal on April 25, 2022, 10:53:21 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 25, 2022, 11:05:06 pm
Post by: Willfor on April 25, 2022, 11:17:30 pm
Post by: King Zultan on April 26, 2022, 03:03:45 am
Post by: martinuzz on April 26, 2022, 04:23:44 am
And Musk is just a minor demon.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 26, 2022, 04:42:20 am
On the bright side, at least the character limit might be reduced.
Post by: Devastator on April 26, 2022, 05:32:05 am
It's pretty unpredictable what that'll be.
I do think he's about to discover how damn near impossible content moderation is at scale.
Post by: Robsoie on April 26, 2022, 06:09:54 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 26, 2022, 06:12:43 am
Phew... for now. He can still fail.
Post by: Starver on April 26, 2022, 06:54:34 am
It makes it awkward on Chrome (links to Twitter info opens app, which I can't then use, unless I do explicitly as "Open in new tab[1]" to force a web-view page from which I then have to dismiss the "Get the app?" prompt. Firefox doesn't do the auto-into-app (for me, that's a bonus, yet I'm not sure if I had to make it not do it like that, at some point) but still has the bottom-banner of course.
So, perhaps one day I will delete Twitter, and it'll marginally (but not materially) improve things for me, with no known downsides. Assuming that it isn't hard-coded into here, somehow, which I wouldn't put it past my Android Distro's device-specific compiler to have done... ;)
[1] Except they're no longer tabs. First Chrome then Firefox moved away from Tabs, as 'improvements' to their UIs, but in my UX opinion it was a retrograde step in most ways. Sorry, feeling ranty, despite it being about two years, now, since the respective changes, by my reckoning.
Post by: Cathar on April 26, 2022, 07:27:37 am
Problem with Elon Musk is not its self assessed "free speech fanaticism", it is is variable geometry. Musk is alright with the N-word, but he'll sack you if you criticise Tesla.
There is no good alternative if policed speech is what you want. Facebook maybe ? The other alternative go further in the unrestricted speech side of the spectrum.
Oh and : Elon Musk is a meme lord. It's a funny weed joke to him because 420 is a funny number, if I understand correctly. It wouldn't be the first time he wastes his fortune on idiotic ideas because his mental age is going through puberty. Dude propped up doge coin not so long ago.
Patrick Boyle made an explicative video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXxeyOVpnCU) on the topic.
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 26, 2022, 07:35:03 am
Post by: dragdeler on April 26, 2022, 08:27:35 am
Never used it in the first place
Right?! What a loss... (-.-)
When I heard the character limit premisse I was like who the fuck needs that? It's not even like you can send in a tweet via phone message AFAIK. It's 100% plain stupid.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 26, 2022, 08:41:30 am
I dont think thats going to change for the stuff that interests me.
Post by: Starver on April 26, 2022, 10:23:49 am
I never got onto Twitter to see if it would have caught on, though. Also I think it probably would have been used to send 'secret' swastikas around, if the wrong crowd had jumped on the bandwagon, which it was very capable of representing. (As with almost all flags, at least up to the complexity of Brazil, though those with islamic script would have seriously challenged the 140-char limit...)
[1] Though my favourite game with the system, when I'd laid down its principles, was to 'evolve' random strings towards matching various reference images in a little Darwinian zero-player 'game' with cross-breeding capabilities. Which was more interesting to me than trying to encode images of what I was having for lunch so that others could pump it through a utility to see... ;)
Post by: Vector on April 26, 2022, 12:24:23 pm
Say what you will about tumblr but it's very queer.
Post by: Cathar on April 26, 2022, 02:47:16 pm
Edit : Also, wow. I really thought that deal would not go through. I suppose Tumblr may be related to the topic of flourishing social medias crashing and burning extremely fast after a dumb executive decision, after all.
Post by: nenjin on April 26, 2022, 03:30:42 pm
There is however the rare, multi-part Tweet that is all facts and no hyperbole or appeals to emotion or w/e.....those I would miss.
Post by: Willfor on April 26, 2022, 04:33:37 pm
Well, I guess Tumblr may actually be a more policed zone than twitter.lol. lmao.
Tumblr is a deep abyss policed only by robots, where every inhabitant simply shouts into the blue abyss like a deep water fish with a little light on its head. The robot that identifies illicit materials often misidentifies it. Tumblr is a tidepond that occasionally gets blasted with a UV burst.
The loneliness bit is spot on though.
Post by: None on April 26, 2022, 04:47:03 pm
Fuck, speaking of microcosms, we're a webforums for a game about ascii dwarves. Relative to Tumblr, we're the only organic creature in the universe.
Post by: Cathar on April 26, 2022, 04:50:03 pm
lol. lmao.I don't know. I remember Tumblr was known for its art community, its porn and its sjws. Then something happened, the company was bought, the porn was blasted off and litterally everyone went to twitter in protest.
Tumblr is a deep abyss policed only by robots, where every inhabitant simply shouts into the blue abyss like a deep water fish with a little light on its head. The robot that identifies illicit materials often misidentifies it. Tumblr is a tidepond that occasionally gets blasted with a UV burst.
The loneliness bit is spot on though.
At the time, Tumblr was already a redundant image storage device for me (dA does the same job but better), and since it now randomly blasts off pictures and have no public anymore, it has lost all function (at least for me).
Now waiting to see if we'll witness the same Hidenburg-style crash for Twitter but I don't think. Billionaire techbro posting doge memes may be annoying, but it's not comparable to denying people their share of tiddies pics.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on April 26, 2022, 04:51:37 pm
It's a constant spiral of rage. It's useless. At the very least Reddit allows lenghty posts. It's worse than Reddit. Which is saying something.
On the other hand, its artifical inducement of mass agressive polemic is a very impressive feat of memetic engineering. And I love memes. So that boosts it a tiny little bit in my eyes, thought it has nothing on Reddit Hivemind.
Post by: nenjin on April 26, 2022, 04:59:35 pm
Quote
I never had Twitter. I don't understand why anyone would have it in the first place.
To me it's the communication equivalent of being in a busy restaurant and listening to 15 second blurbs from all the tables around you.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on April 26, 2022, 05:12:30 pm
The outside sucks. There is nothing of worth there.
Twitter is a constant shitstorm of awful ideas.
Reddit is a stomping ground of emergent hiveminds.
Facebook is an ancient dead wasteland.
Tumblr is a dark blue, lonely abyys, like the others said.
Tiktok is an evergrowing blob of insidious cancer.
And -chans? They are now but a mere imitation of what they once were.
And so on. Just abandon the surface, stay in the fort. Sure, it is rather tight here, and we will have to make do with dice and our imaginations. But it is definitely better than being in a place where nazis and antivaxxers roam free.
Post by: None on April 26, 2022, 05:18:30 pm
lol. lmao.I don't know. I remember Tumblr was known for its art community, its porn and its sjws. Then something happened, the company was bought, the porn was blasted off and litterally everyone went to twitter in protest.
Tumblr is a deep abyss policed only by robots, where every inhabitant simply shouts into the blue abyss like a deep water fish with a little light on its head. The robot that identifies illicit materials often misidentifies it. Tumblr is a tidepond that occasionally gets blasted with a UV burst.
The loneliness bit is spot on though.
At the time, Tumblr was already a redundant image storage device for me (dA does the same job but better), and since it now randomly blasts off pictures and have no public anymore, it has lost all function (at least for me).
Now waiting to see if we'll witness the same Hidenburg-style crash for Twitter but I don't think. Billionaire techbro posting doge memes may be annoying, but it's not comparable to denying people their share of tiddies pics.
Soooo, your problem is that the porn got nuked. That's the gist of it.
Post by: brewer bob on April 26, 2022, 05:22:23 pm
Post by: Cathar on April 26, 2022, 05:46:36 pm
There's another alternative *leans forward* touching grass
I tried talking to Replika AI.
I did not know that I could get actually angry at a robot literally meant to please me.
As to talking to actual people, now let's be serious for a moment.
Soooo, your problem is that the porn got nuked. That's the gist of it.
Well it's not my problem. I went to tumblr for its art community. But that art community just poofed away right after the porn was nuked. I saw it happen in real time. Turns out actions have consequences, who knew.
Franckly if Elon makes Twitter a shit place, I'll probably leave but until then, a change in the board of directors does not impact my (limited) activity on twitter and does not warrant a boycott from me.
Edit : Oh and, if you want the kind of plateform-killing idea to be put next to "nuking porn out of tumblr", Elon Musk have proposed to make twitter user pay for the service, or force people to prove their identity to access the website. Part of me wants him to do that, just to witness history repeat itself.
Post by: TD1 on April 26, 2022, 06:01:16 pm
If you don't censor bigotry, it just grows even more. No, we aren't censoring it hard enough.
I sometimes think that those who shout the loudest for tolerance are the most intolerant. The problem lies in the distinction between 'tolerance' and 'acceptance,' terms which are erroneously conflated. The process of tolerating something culminates in acceptance of that thing, and ergo anything which is tolerated must be acceptable.
But the terms aren't synonyms. Acceptance requires harmonising something with your personal beliefs. But tolerance is measured in your ability to co-exist with multiple contradictory ideas without attempting control.
If something is accepted, it is because you find it in some way agreeable. If something is tolerated, it is because you are capable of hearing (but not necessarily agreeing with) multiple opinions.
I'm saying this because it's often the 'tolerant' people who argue for censorship of loosely-defined bigotry. But what they really want is to accept things, not tolerate them.
Which isn't to say that some things shouldn't be censored. To name obvious examples - age-appropriate content, incitement to murder/arson/theft, so on. But it is to say that censorship, regardless of whether it's directed towards what many consider bigotry or outright untruth, is not tolerance. And that therefore we should apply censorship with the lightest possible hand, not the heaviest.
Post by: Starver on April 26, 2022, 06:36:39 pm
We should return to dial-up BBS, that's the real deal.A decent BBS (or so I think, even with extreme hindsight) was where I started. It wasn't dial-up, but a campus-wide thing, accessible with any unix account and the knowledge how to log into it (probably still a minority of people not directly in the Computing Department's courses, but I had ins from Physics Dept. account, myself, a login to the CompSoc's machine and later on a full-blown CS account, all linked to the same BBS username... And there were Humanities/Languages/etc people on there too, so it was a nice diverse userbase on the whole, even if it was heavy in the technically-minded).
Semi-simultaneously, I lurked a lot on Usenet (the uni-feed was largely read-only, and for binaries (should one desire them) one had to telnet externally, but there were good humo(u)r newsgroups and technical/scientific revelations to be had if you could spare the time. This was before The Eternal September, when one maybe had to cut down to a few select communities to pay attention to (or maybe more if .moderated versions with a good moderated throttle on everything that was spam or not ham).
Those were the days. It's a pity nostalgia isn't like it used to be, though. It's not that the Internet (or even the rather narrower Web) isn't as exclusive as it once was... let a thousand flowers bloom..! ...just that the proportion of people who are actually wisely using their ability to say things has drastically hit the floor. That said, I've probably degenerated from ky own lofty ideals too. I've been over-explaining things like this for decades, but I might not have actually been so mired in useless remeniscences quite like this, back then. Ok, so I didn't have much to remenisce about. What even was "the thing" from my pre-networked life? It was well before Pogs, etc. Panini Football Stickers? I didn't even like football, but I seem to remember collecting and swapping them. Everything else was totally uninteresting to my contemporaries, or just would confirm how me and my family were weird.
...anyway, consider this a sign of how bad I'd be on Twitter. Well beyond the 280ish characters, before editing, and my life would be of interest to practically no-one. Though maybe the second point is classed as "fairly typical for Twitter".
Post by: None on April 26, 2022, 07:37:57 pm
Soooo, your problem is that the porn got nuked. That's the gist of it.
Well it's not my problem. I went to tumblr for its art community. But that art community just poofed away right after the porn was nuked. I saw it happen in real time. Turns out actions have consequences, who knew.
Sooooo, because you were there for the art community, and then the porn disappeared, and then the art community poofed, you're wishing loneliness and policing upon someone else who still enjoys the community for being there for the queer community?
We're back to 'the porn is gone' and the rest is sour grapes.
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 26, 2022, 10:12:41 pm
Well, I guess Tumblr may actually be a more policed zone than twitter. You must really like to be policed tho, and don't mind loneliness too much.I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.
Edit : Also, wow. I really thought that deal would not go through. I suppose Tumblr may be related to the topic of flourishing social medias crashing and burning extremely fast after a dumb executive decision, after all.
I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.If you don't censor bigotry, it just grows even more. No, we aren't censoring it hard enough.
I sometimes think that those who shout the loudest for tolerance are the most intolerant. The problem lies in the distinction between 'tolerance' and 'acceptance,' terms which are erroneously conflated. The process of tolerating something culminates in acceptance of that thing, and ergo anything which is tolerated must be acceptable.
But the terms aren't synonyms. Acceptance requires harmonising something with your personal beliefs. But tolerance is measured in your ability to co-exist with multiple contradictory ideas without attempting control.
If something is accepted, it is because you find it in some way agreeable. If something is tolerated, it is because you are capable of hearing (but not necessarily agreeing with) multiple opinions.
I'm saying this because it's often the 'tolerant' people who argue for censorship of loosely-defined bigotry. But what they really want is to accept things, not tolerate them.
Which isn't to say that some things shouldn't be censored. To name obvious examples - age-appropriate content, incitement to murder/arson/theft, so on. But it is to say that censorship, regardless of whether it's directed towards what many consider bigotry or outright untruth, is not tolerance. And that therefore we should apply censorship with the lightest possible hand, not the heaviest.
Post by: Strik3r on April 27, 2022, 01:57:24 am
I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.
I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.
Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.
Oh, and as a recommendation, I say here. Bay12 Forums.And don't forget Discord, a sewer system inhabited by only creeps and groomers.
The outside sucks. There is nothing of worth there.
Twitter is a constant shitstorm of awful ideas.
Reddit is a stomping ground of emergent hiveminds.
Facebook is an ancient dead wasteland.
Tumblr is a dark blue, lonely abyys, like the others said.
Tiktok is an evergrowing blob of insidious cancer.
And -chans? They are now but a mere imitation of what they once were.
And so on. Just abandon the surface, stay in the fort. Sure, it is rather tight here, and we will have to make do with dice and our imaginations. But it is definitely better than being in a place where nazis and antivaxxers roam free.
As in regards to the Twitter buyout: it's been a great source of laughs seeing the certain people melt down in real time. I really don't think twitter is going to change a whole lot in the hands of Musk, but the salt harvest has been phenomenal thus far. Keep coping and seething, i say to them.
Post by: voliol on April 27, 2022, 02:31:02 am
I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.
I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.
Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.
Keep it real, Strik3r. Max might be leaning authoritarian at times, and the ins and out of that can be discussed, but she is not a fash. You know that is not true. (Unless you were being jokingly sarcastic, in which case it passed me by entirely).
Tumblr is a deep, lonely, lawless abyss, and it is lovely for it. Sure, there are bonkers people out there, but you won’t find them unless you go out of your way to. Or maybe the bonkers people who are also quarrelsome enough to find you went to twitter and are now coming back, what do I know?
Post by: King Zultan on April 27, 2022, 02:44:14 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 03:03:51 am
Discord... it depends on the server. I like it overall but I stay out of certain places. Most of my friends are on Discord and also that's how I talk about games I like.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 04:06:28 am
Sooooo, because you were there for the art community, and then the porn disappeared, and then the art community poofed, you're wishing loneliness and policing upon someone else who still enjoys the community for being there for the queer community?
We're back to 'the porn is gone' and the rest is sour grapes.
I think you misread me, with or without purpouse. As for the sour grapes, really no. People I followed on tumblr are still on other social medias. If you are happy with that dead social media, all the power to you, I'm very glad it worked for you !
Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.
I won't call them fascists, but they are counterproductive. Robust political debate is absolutely necessary, especially now.
Where I am, I don't have the luxury of being able to "ban" the actual fascists outside of my house. If we don't win the political debate on the public square, if we don't turn to reason people who can be turned, France becomes a fascist state in five years.
People who want to stamp out political discussion in the public square are extremely misguided, even if their intentions are good. Bay12 may not be the place to have that discussion, but Twitter defintively is. I'm waiting to see what happens, because I don't trust Musk as long as I can throw him and his position changes according to the phases of the moon.
Taking any decision now is very premature.
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 05:10:58 am
Post by: Starver on April 27, 2022, 05:55:30 am
Quote
...and then they came for the Fascists,
But I said nothing because I was not a Fascist.
[1] Ok, well let's just say that I can tolerate pretty much anything but intolerance, and leave it at that old cliché.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 06:07:48 am
Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.
Nazis and people who are dead set in their ideas cannot be turned, but some people can. Actually, most people can. Political battle always happen in the swamp, and the swamp is full of people with legitimate grievances who go ignored and picked up by the far right, only for them to be instrumentalized later.
You see, the crux of the problem is not the nazis. The crux of the problem is the fact they go uncontested when they tackle people's issues.
At some point, you need to enter in spheres they control and try to explain to people that vaccines are not a plan of the illuminati, that EU standards are a tool used by the industry and not a way to exert control over their lives, etc. It's a thankless job, but it has a tangible effect, and recquire a shared space with the enemy.
You don't debate to turn Mark Grenon, you debate to turn his hundreds of dupes before they inject themselves bleach.
Post by: Robsoie on April 27, 2022, 06:08:29 am
And add that to the internet lacking several ingredients from human social interactions like presence, aura, charisma, intent, tone, etc... that's just going to end into yet another internet cesspool.
Of course, you'll just pat yourself in the back for being the one that is right and having won some kind of mystical internet points, but your interlocutor will do the same on his side, leading to nothing changing, or at least not for the better.
You geniunely want to help change heart, you'll need to involve yourself like this guy that talked and befriended genuinely some KKK members , convincing them of the error of their ways :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis
Would have never worked over the internet, because for this to work on the internet you will need the ...-ist to already wanting to change, that's why i guess "deradicalization"-focused social media may have some positive result, because the guy deciding to join in them already may be willing to better himself.
But changing hearts on twitter ? 4chan ? please be serious ...
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 06:26:40 am
I don't believe those dupes are possible to turn back to sanity via online debate. See what Robsoie said: it's too impersonal. It would be better to convert them, but as that is basically impossible, it's more effective to drive them into echo chambers and away from the public eye. Let them fester in 8chan.Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.
Nazis and people who are dead set in their ideas cannot be turned, but some people can. Actually, most people can. Political battle always happen in the swamp, and the swamp is full of people with legitimate grievances who go ignored and picked up by the far right, only for them to be instrumentalized later.
You see, the crux of the problem is not the nazis. The crux of the problem is the fact they go uncontested when they tackle people's issues.
At some point, you need to enter in spheres they control and try to explain to people that vaccines are not a plan of the illuminati, that EU standards are a tool used by the industry and not a way to exert control over their lives, etc. It's a thankless job, but it has a tangible effect, and recquire a shared space with the enemy.
You don't debate to turn Mark Grenon, you debate to turn his hundreds of dupes before they inject themselves bleach.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 06:55:05 am
But changing hearts on twitter ? 4chan ? please be serious ...I've been on 4chan for a long, long time. And yes, I'm perfectly serious. You can't turn everyone, you have to pick your battles, but ground can be gained and people can be lead to think. Also I think you are generalizing peoples in the chans, I met some nice people there.
But here is my counterpoints :
• Every inch of ground you give up is taken by the enemy.
• Understanding where the enemy stands in a recquirement for victory
• The public debate is an ongoing and sustained effort
• Subjecting yourself to different points of views helps you grow as a person
As for turning people with hatred in their heart : I think you underestimate people, by a large margin. Maybe because you haven't been in contact with a lot of extremists, or maybe the extremists you've been in contact have been more extreme than mine. But I've seen people change for the better. Some are just kids, some are misconstruing the nature of their problems, some are just holding the beliefs of their locale community. All of them cannot be turned. Some are actually bags of hate, but they are in the absolute minority.
Allowing you to question your prejudices and your a-priori is one of the functions of free speech, actually.
Edit :
Okay, practical exemple. During the Brexit debate, the question of EU standards was put forth by the brexiteer camp, as an authoritarian top-down, costly and redudant measure by the European Union. That claim was largely uncontested (I think John Oliver made a snarky remark on it at the time, and that was it).
All of it was false, they are actually a democratic process used by the industry to upgrade the quality of their product and to speak the same language across europe, and consumer unions are part of the process of creating standards. Even today, I'm fairly sure the records haven't been set straight in the public opinion.
Now if the proposition is to just systematically abandon the ground and just let everyone live in their own reality, this will happen again and again. We need to confront the bullshit.
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 27, 2022, 07:42:24 am
And I also would support the claim that it can work. I always think back to the global warming here. Ten years ago the local-language internets were swarming with bunk arguments, proliferating like crazy and seeping into real life conversations. But a conscious effort to clear the misinformation was made, conducted almost entirely online by just a handful of people. And it worked. The same old hardcore crackpots still try to post the same old tired bullshit. But these days, by and large, if anyone tries to drop an argument that global warming is a hoax, they get organically booed out of the conversation and given a reading list as a farewell gift. Nobody's got patience for them any more. They've lost the audience. Not because they were banned from talking, but because their arguments have been exposed as bunk in the public eye.
Post by: brewer bob on April 27, 2022, 08:07:28 am
Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.
This. Giving any public space and platforms to fascist views just helps them spread their message. They can cry and whine all they want about being silenced, but if that isn't done and they gain power, there won't be no freedom of speech no more. It won't change their minds, sure, but that's not the point. The point is to protect those the fascists seek to destroy. There should never be any dialogue with fascists.
(Edit: Just to clarify, I do not believe censorship or banning fascists makes them go away or solves the underlying issues, but it does make it more difficult for them to organize and mobilize.)
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 08:18:01 am
I fully agree with Cathar here. As in most public debates, you're not trying to win over your opponent - your game is to win over the audience.The majority of people already hate Nazis. That isn't making them disappear by itself. Only online censorship does.
And I also would support the claim that it can work. I always think back to the global warming here. Ten years ago the local-language internets were swarming with bunk arguments, proliferating like crazy and seeping into real life conversations. But a conscious effort to clear the misinformation was made, conducted almost entirely online by just a handful of people. And it worked. The same old hardcore crackpots still try to post the same old tired bullshit. But these days, by and large, if anyone tries to drop an argument that global warming is a hoax, they get organically booed out of the conversation and given a reading list as a farewell gift. Nobody's got patience for them any more. They've lost the audience. Not because they were banned from talking, but because their arguments have been exposed as bunk in the public eye.
Post by: Starver on April 27, 2022, 08:18:52 am
So I put a basic point-by-point refutation in there. Neither censoring nor letting such stupid arguments stand without clear anullment (lest it be taken as an authoritative last word).
No sign that it was a troll. Not sure I could break into the perpetrator's internalised mindview, if it was at least honest. But it seemed the best net sollution when considering future readers who might stumble onto it.
That said, I did get the feeling I was wasting my own time (https://xkcd.com/386/), for all the externalised benefits.
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 27, 2022, 08:27:05 am
The majority of people already hate Nazis. That isn't making them disappear by itself. Only online censorship does.It doesn't make them disappear. It only makes them disappear from your view.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 08:29:02 am
That said, I did get the feeling I was wasting my own time (https://xkcd.com/386/), for all the externalised benefits.
By that account, this very discussion is a waste of time, yet I don't have the feeling it is not worth having.
Post by: None on April 27, 2022, 08:34:27 am
The appropriate place to change hearts may well be in one-on-ones, but open congress built on hate just begets hate, and there's a lot of disinformation out there designed to foster that sort of hate. You deplatform that shit. Giving it fair discussion ground just validates it - reddit had a pretty infamous 'ask a rapist' thread which lived for too long and was eventually taken down because it was validating that behavior.
Post by: Strik3r on April 27, 2022, 08:36:38 am
If one needs to censor the opposing viewpoint in order to "prevent it from spreading", then maybe their own idea wasn't all that good to begin with if it can't stand on it's own without being propped up.
Post by: voliol on April 27, 2022, 08:44:40 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 08:46:08 am
I know. The aim is to isolate them from the public. They might as well have disappeared if they are chased into echo chambers like 8chan. I don't care if they are Nazis there.The majority of people already hate Nazis. That isn't making them disappear by itself. Only online censorship does.It doesn't make them disappear. It only makes them disappear from your view.
Censorship is life support for unviable ideas.The opposing viewpoint is "gas the Jews and gays" or "allow a pandemic to spread". And it's less to prevent it from spreading and more like to punish them for their harmful speech. Antivax rhetoric can kill people, so can incitement to violence against minorities. What a piss-poor generalization.
If one needs to censor the opposing viewpoint in order to "prevent it from spreading", then maybe their own idea wasn't all that good to begin with if it can't stand on it's own without being propped up.
Post by: None on April 27, 2022, 08:48:22 am
Censorship is life support for unviable ideas.That's woefully selfish and only empowers bigotry and disinformation. There are ideas that certain people don't deserve to live and by anything I stand for, I am NOT going to give floor to that kind of discussion.
If one needs to censor the opposing viewpoint in order to "prevent it from spreading", then maybe their own idea wasn't all that good to begin with if it can't stand on it's own without being propped up.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 08:49:13 am
You are idealistic, Cathar. I appreciate that. But the kids and merely misguided people are a minority within Nazis. Those can, sure, be turned. But the vast majority of Nazis are so embroiled in their own propaganda that nobody, especially a "leftist SJW" who they will not listen to on principle, can change.
Not in my assessment. I've met a few people who cannot be turned, and that I really want out of my sight. One of them is the matron in my extended family, who is a bigot in pretty much every way you can imagine. She can die for all I care. The problem is she has the ears of people who I care about, cousins and nephews that may actually die as the result of her actions.
Leaving people you disagree with to their own devices is fine until the day you receive a phone call and learn that your uncle and two of his son are in reanimation because his wife insisted he would not wear a mask nor get a vaccine. Not confronting bad ideas allow them to fester.
Another I know is mostly attracted to far right ideas because misguided ecologic policies are destroying game in the forests he is hunting in, and because the locale governance-party townhall does not take the step to protect small business in the town, leading to general unemployment and reduction in the quality of life. None of them care strongly about race and gender, but those issues are trusted upon them by proximity with actual fascists.
You may be fine with that, and I'm not arguing that you have to listen to them. I'm fine with people not liking them.
I'm arguing that, in my point of view, discussing wth is a worthy endeavour, as it may 1°) turn them and 2°) lead to solutions of actual problems that did not appear at first.
Also : I do not believe for a second that 44% of french people are fascists. Not for half a second. It is not normal that far right parties do that high of a score here. This has to be adressed and censorship does not adress that at all.
Post by: None on April 27, 2022, 08:58:41 am
Anyways, for general reading pleasure, I'd like to introduce the paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) and the words of Jean-Paul Sartre for why you don't give bigots a platform:
Quote
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 09:05:21 am
You sure as hell don't want antisemites in a student revolt, for a lot of reasons, and outing them is perfectly justified in this context. As for when it is justified in general, the general rule stated by Noam Chomsky is that power has to justify itself constantly, and have to be constantly questionned. If a power fails to justify its existance, it has to be dismantled.
The corrolary is, you have the right to exert power if the use of power is justify, and it is on you to justify yourself. "I don't like him, he is scum" is not an acceptable basis for the use of coercion.
Post by: WealthyRadish on April 27, 2022, 09:13:10 am
I fully agree with Cathar here. As in most public debates, you're not trying to win over your opponent - your game is to win over the audience.
And I also would support the claim that it can work. I always think back to the global warming here. Ten years ago the local-language internets were swarming with bunk arguments, proliferating like crazy and seeping into real life conversations. But a conscious effort to clear the misinformation was made, conducted almost entirely online by just a handful of people. And it worked. The same old hardcore crackpots still try to post the same old tired bullshit. But these days, by and large, if anyone tries to drop an argument that global warming is a hoax, they get organically booed out of the conversation and given a reading list as a farewell gift. Nobody's got patience for them any more. They've lost the audience. Not because they were banned from talking, but because their arguments have been exposed as bunk in the public eye.
I think there are a few differences with the modern platforms that make this less effective. For one, the sites are run by algorithms that decide what to push into someone's face, based mostly what has previously driven "engagement". Everything is also aggregated, with only a tiny percentage of the most "engaging" material reaching a significant audience. I think those things together mean that you will almost always be "preaching to the choir" if you do the dull work of being the sensibility police (and an empty choir at that), while whatever is currently considered controversial and generating disagreements will automatically funnel people to another choir-preacher ready with affirmation.
It also really doesn't help that the people who use these systems most effectively are the worst liars and frauds, nevermind their politics. InfoWars is a good example; it's difficult to summarize briefly just how useless and dishonest that source of information is (the Knowledge Fight podcast is the most comprehensive cataloging of it), but suffice to say it is one of many scam operations which absolutely loved being on places like Twitter and YouTube. The deplatforming was a disaster for them, and they continually try to circumvent it, and is true of most career-trolls getting banned. The people who make money off of fake information have long-since integrated attempts by others to debunk the information into their business model. Anything that drives engagement is good (it brings in new traffic), and their audience will never be exposed to the best counter-arguments anyway. It's made worse by the format of the platforms themselves being practically designed to only support incomplete and pithy remarks that are almost always in some way false; the people doing the debunking often get things wrong in minor or major ways, and it only takes one mistake by the detractors or "mainstream" to further affirm to the audience that these other sources can be dismissed.
It's shitty to say "I love censorship", but frankly, I agree with Max here. These tech companies have stumbled ass-backwards into creating platforms that are finely-tuned to spread innacurate information to the targeted audience most susceptible to it, and the handful of personalities getting rich off making affirmational propaganda are having wildly disproportionate effects on the broader society. You can't engage with it for the sake of an unseen audience because there's a middleman deciding exactly who that audience is and registering your "engagement" as further endorsement (and it is typically turned effortless around on you by experts in deflection and bad-faith rhetorical tricks in the absence of a long-form medium). The companies will do a hackneyed, biased, irresponsible, and arbitrary job that aligns solely with their desire to avoid regulation and secure future rent-seeking, but deplatforming does genuinely work against the grifters who are obviously just in it for the money.
Pre-edit: 13 new replies... This post may have expired, bleh, sending it anyway
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 09:16:09 am
First of all, that is not my experience with fascists online. It's just too impersonal and too easy to dismiss someone as "yet another shitty liberal" when you can't see their face or hear their voice. Besides, letting them shout to "kill the jews" in public is more harmful than isolating them because less "borderline" and unstable people can hear the calls to violence. It's a small risk but it's there. Not to mention I don't want to read that shit.You are idealistic, Cathar. I appreciate that. But the kids and merely misguided people are a minority within Nazis. Those can, sure, be turned. But the vast majority of Nazis are so embroiled in their own propaganda that nobody, especially a "leftist SJW" who they will not listen to on principle, can change.
Not in my assessment. I've met a few people who cannot be turned, and that I really want out of my sight. One of them is the matron in my extended family, who is a bigot in pretty much every way you can imagine. She can die for all I care. The problem is she has the ears of people who I care about, cousins and nephews that may actually die as the result of her actions.
Leaving people you disagree with to their own devices is fine until the day you receive a phone call and learn that your uncle and two of his son are in reanimation because his wife insisted he would not wear a mask nor get a vaccine. Not confronting bad ideas allow them to fester.
Another I know is mostly attracted to far right ideas because misguided ecologic policies are destroying game in the forests he is hunting in, and because the locale governance-party townhall does not take the step to protect small business in the town, leading to general unemployment and reduction in the quality of life. None of them care strongly about race and gender, but those issues are trusted upon them by proximity with actual fascists.
You may be fine with that, and I'm not arguing that you have to listen to them. I'm fine with people not liking them.
I'm arguing that, in my point of view, discussing wth is a worthy endeavour, as it may 1°) turn them and 2°) lead to solutions of actual problems that did not appear at first.
Also : I do not believe for a second that 44% of french people are fascists. Not for half a second. It is not normal that far right parties do that high of a score here. This has to be adressed and censorship does not adress that at all.
Second, I implied that in real life it is easier to turn people. Thus I agree with you on the last point. But I was only talking about ONLINE. Censorship is the second best option-- but the best one is impossible online.
Post by: bateau-de-coal on April 27, 2022, 09:36:09 am
Post by: Strik3r on April 27, 2022, 09:38:17 am
The memetic strength of an idea does not equal its quality. By that argument fascism is not the worst idea ever, because it has spread before and may still do.But who is, with their own biases, qualified to determine the quality of an idea? The politican? The CEO? The Pope? Some nerd in a labcoat? Some fuck with a megaphone? Someone on Twitter?
Ideas evolve, mutate, change, but for that to happen, they must come in contact with other ideas. They must battle and intermix on the arena of ideas. In isolated, controlled echo-chambers those ideas will undergo the memetic equivalent of inbreeding and all that results from such.
Post by: Cathar on April 27, 2022, 09:40:21 am
I see your point. Although I disagree on your conclusion, I respect your point of view.
Thank you for humoring me.
Post by: None on April 27, 2022, 09:52:32 am
The memetic strength of an idea does not equal its quality. By that argument fascism is not the worst idea ever, because it has spread before and may still do.But who is, with their own biases, qualified to determine the quality of an idea? The politican? The CEO? The Pope? Some nerd in a labcoat? Some fuck with a megaphone? Someone on Twitter?
Ideas evolve, mutate, change, but for that to happen, they must come in contact with other ideas. They must battle and intermix on the arena of ideas. In isolated, controlled echo-chambers those ideas will undergo the memetic equivalent of inbreeding and all that results from such.
oh no, the public didn't accept my racist ideas and now my racism is inbred with more racism, however will my racism have genetic diversity now, they'll never accept my racism like this
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 10:24:49 am
Thanks for being civil.
I see your point. Although I disagree on your conclusion, I respect your point of view.
Thank you for humoring me.
I know right? What would society have to gain from allowing fascist ideas to be tolerated? If those ideas become "inbred"... the world's smallest violin will play a tearful symphony.The memetic strength of an idea does not equal its quality. By that argument fascism is not the worst idea ever, because it has spread before and may still do.But who is, with their own biases, qualified to determine the quality of an idea? The politican? The CEO? The Pope? Some nerd in a labcoat? Some fuck with a megaphone? Someone on Twitter?
Ideas evolve, mutate, change, but for that to happen, they must come in contact with other ideas. They must battle and intermix on the arena of ideas. In isolated, controlled echo-chambers those ideas will undergo the memetic equivalent of inbreeding and all that results from such.
oh no, the public didn't accept my racist ideas and now my racism is inbred with more racism, however will my racism have genetic diversity now, they'll never accept my racism like this
Post by: Quarque on April 27, 2022, 10:36:42 am
Never used it in the first place
Same here, from what I've heard facebook is where you post that you're about to poop and twitter is where you brag about it when you're done.
Post by: TamerVirus on April 27, 2022, 10:46:58 am
Post by: Vector on April 27, 2022, 11:21:33 am
Harassment and dogpiling are really common on Twitter, and also it's hard to make larger points or write and share essays. The content I like is usually not available on Twitter.
Additionally, I agree that the attempts to censor Tumblr are annoying, but Twitter has known issues with banning users from the platform for saying that they are queer and with not getting rid of Nazi types engaged in aggressive behaviors. The Tumblr community is much more robust and stable in that sense. I was never there for art, pr0nz, or female-presenting nipples, rather the big 'ol text posts I previously mentioned. It works fine for what I want it to do.
Realistically I should probably join Mastodon or Pillowfort, but I haven't yet.
PS: I actually don't have a tumblr account either. I just like the site more.
Post by: brewer bob on April 27, 2022, 12:07:33 pm
Never used it in the first place
Same here, from what I've heard facebook is where you post that you're about to poop and twitter is where you brag about it when you're done.
And Instagram is where you post a filtered picture of it.
Post by: Strik3r on April 27, 2022, 12:16:36 pm
Never used it in the first place
Same here, from what I've heard facebook is where you post that you're about to poop and twitter is where you brag about it when you're done.
And Instagram is where you post a filtered picture of it.
And Discord is where you provide a play-by-play of the whole thing.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 27, 2022, 12:34:42 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 27, 2022, 12:37:42 pm
Censorship is life support for unviable ideas.
If one needs to censor the opposing viewpoint in order to "prevent it from spreading", then maybe their own idea wasn't all that good to begin with if it can't stand on it's own without being propped up.
That's a very foolish statement indeed. Many harmful ideas are extremely viable in the sphere of public debate while being incorrect, self-annihilating and harmful to humans in the real world.
It's all very well to smugly talk about how the best ideology will win out eventually if none of them are allowed to censor their opponents while ignoring that hundreds of thousands of people die every time the pendulum of public opinion swings into the more fiery zones of ideology.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 27, 2022, 12:46:41 pm
Post by: The_Explorer on April 27, 2022, 01:54:42 pm
If OP is still reading this, I recommend to you the fediverse. They're officially receiving twitter refugees now. There are some Chinese users there, myself included. Also if you're over 18, you may actually check out tindr. I don't use it but I heard that people sometimes even hold intellectual conversations there!
I'm still reading this. Thanks for the heads up on fediverse, I'll definitely check it out. Tbh I kinda forgot I made this thread and I made it as soon as I woke and first thing I see is news about twitter. After that I took a couple day break from reading news or dealing with any of that, much more relaxing really lol. Though granted, the deal may not work out in the end with twitter, but either way...fediverse I'll look up definitely today. Thanks :)
Post by: nenjin on April 27, 2022, 02:00:14 pm
Lol. He's so fucking rich even his losses are absurd numbers.
Post by: MaxTheFox on April 27, 2022, 10:12:13 pm
We get it Strik3r, you hate Discord.Never used it in the first place
Same here, from what I've heard facebook is where you post that you're about to poop and twitter is where you brag about it when you're done.
And Instagram is where you post a filtered picture of it.
And Discord is where you provide a play-by-play of the whole thing.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 29, 2022, 01:26:46 pm
Whether it works out or not, the deal alone just caused Tesla's stock to drop $114 billion.Dunno why. Tesla's absurd over-valuation is largely based on Musk's Twitter persona as a memey techno-savior. Him buying Twitter just makes their core business, lying, more secure.
Lol. He's so fucking rich even his losses are absurd numbers.
Looks like Musk is buying it himself through a shell company rather than Tesla, and going into debt to do so. Isn't it so cool that someone with a history of (alleged) stock manipulation can just borrow a few dozen billion dollars to better (allegedly) manipulate his stocks? Certainly only such a visionary could change the world with billions and billions of credit. One of his ideas has to work eventually, one of these days... right? Maybe if he steals some better ones?
And of course his cult thinks this is a win for free speech. Their "new public square" will be safe and secure under the direct ownership one man, their larcenous billionaire messiah. What a stupid timeline.
Oh and I try to log into Twitter sometimes with my Google account, but it asks my DoB (in an obnoxious menu), my privacy settings, then just drops me on a white screen. To try again I have to reenter everything. I don't even want to tweet, it's just making me log in to *view* more than a page of tweets now. What a joke of a platform.
Post by: Starver on April 29, 2022, 01:44:38 pm
But this is how I worked out how to interact with it, in my peculiar little bit of the usage phase-space. Can't guarantee it's a universal answer for a whole swathe of refuseniks, including yourself.
[1] As I think I said before, if I do "open in new tab". If I don't do that, it opens up the App and makes it quite clear I can't progress without using/creating an account. So I try to remember to go for the 'tab' route.
Post by: Iduno on April 29, 2022, 07:13:25 pm
Spoiler: Picture Related (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cathar on May 15, 2022, 04:50:34 am
Shocked. I thought the meme lord was 100% reliable in business deals.
Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SfXoCj4TLk) by Patrick Boyle.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 04:59:45 am
"This is a dumpster fire of a deal"
...I like me a good dumpster fire.
Post by: King Zultan on May 15, 2022, 05:02:42 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 05:08:16 am
So we got all worked up over this for nothing.So you got all worked up over this for nothing.
I never really cared. Twitter sucks, Elon sucks, who cares?
Post by: Cathar on May 15, 2022, 05:08:30 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 05:12:24 am
Apparently it was (and still is, I guess) a publicity stunt. Like pretty much every time when it comes to someone riding the hype train in whatever they do.
You mean, Elon & Twitter would engage in HYPE and stage a publicity stunt?
I am SO shocked.
(sarcasm, they're both basically the train companies that OWN the Hype Trains)
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2022, 05:31:15 am
OTOH, I also wouldn't bet against him just happily losing such small-change without batting an eyelid.
(What this all means for the users, past present and future, I don't know. I don't think it changes the immediate reasons for staying on/leaving/joining Twitter at all. There's really nothing directly comparible to switch to, in both mode and scale, but then Twitter wasn't a 'better version of <Foo>' for any particular <Foo> at the time of its creation or popular adoption, so we're unlikely to recognise the next level and/or paradigm of a Neo-Twitteresque platform until we suddenly realise half the world is using the whatever-it-is. But I bet I'll be a late-adopter/never-adopter myself, so don't look to me to find out what it might be: I never use loads of things, so that won't narrow it down much!)
Post by: Cathar on May 15, 2022, 05:44:41 am
As for betting for or against Musk : letting the actions of the PeNgu1N of d00M lol random xd decide the fate of your finance is probably a bad idea.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 15, 2022, 09:04:32 am
Post by: Quarque on May 15, 2022, 09:19:28 am
Even though his ambitions to colonize Mars leave me shaking my head. Building a rocket is one thing... but it only solves one problem. Mars is a hellscape that makes the South Pole look like a paradise. Drier than the Sahel desert, cold and dark as the poles, no air, the ground (all of it) is highly toxic, storms whipping up equally toxic fine dust for extra Fun, there's no protection against radiation from space and the low gravity might kill you in the long run as well.
Perfect place for an Embark, in short. :P
Post by: Cathar on May 15, 2022, 09:39:04 am
I'm kind of excited to see how he'll try to crawl out of the hole he made for himself when he's down getting hit by all the rakes one after the other.
Maybe, indeed, he can uses his SpaceEx rockets but he'd need to go out of the solar system to escape the cringe.
(Though, Boyle seem to think Twitter will just let him off the hook because they are good boys. I'm having a good laugh out of it at least.)
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2022, 09:53:08 am
Perfect place for an Embark, in short. :PStrike the regolith!
(Wouldn't be surprised if The Boring Company is part of his Grand Plan™ in that direction, too...)
But this aint the Space Thread. Nearly posted there that they've germinated seeds in lunar samples (https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03334-8). Without the help of Matt Damon...
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 15, 2022, 11:02:02 am
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2022, 11:24:00 am
Colonizing Mars is viable, but not really with current tech. And I'd really prefer if it was done by the state rather than megacorps.Which state?
(Or states... Reminds me of the US/Russian competition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_(1998_video_game)). - A modern classic, IMO, except that it's arguably not modern any more, given it probably came out before many of those reading this were born, never mind the original arcade version that I remember being in a biker café that I used to go to on occasion, between the pinballs. I feel old.)
I share your reluctance about megacorps, but something in me would prefer some (currently indefinable) third-way. Knowing also that I'd probably have a problem with any third-wat that actually evolved the ability to become a colonising power in its own right. Let's hope we just pick the least worst option...
Post by: Quarque on May 15, 2022, 12:56:10 pm
But this aint the Space Thread.
Yeah, I went off-track. Just astonishing how he fell from "philantrope using his wealth to help humanity reach the final frontier" to "billionaire using his wealth in a failed attempt to dictate moderator policy on twitter."
What even to call this? Pathetic? I'm at a loss for words.
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2022, 01:21:53 pm
Regarding Twitter and moving away from it, I'll jump us sort of back on track by saying that I've had this idea for something of my own design of social-media platform with (my idea of!) the best communication ideas from Usenet onwards, that I've experienced.
One of the features is a form of dynamic 'threading' that could do away with usual problems of topic-derailing without requiring strict moderation or otherwise preventing natural movement from idea to idea. My pet name for it is "Drift"[1], with the obvious corporate slogan being "You Get My Drift?" (and some four-note jingle, no doubt, if I can find a combination that isn't ripping off Intel/whoever).
You saw it here first! And, probably, for the only ever time.
Post by: Frumple on May 15, 2022, 01:40:36 pm
Yeah, I went off-track. Just astonishing how he fell from "philantrope using his wealth to help humanity reach the final frontier" to "billionaire using his wealth in a failed attempt to dictate moderator policy on twitter."Eh... from what I understand of musk that never really was his starting point. Guy's been something of an egotistical grifter from at least the point he had money of note, and it only really got worse as he had more resources to leverage. The philanthropy stuff is basically just PR, to the extent it substantively exists to begin with. From that angle this whole twitter thing is largely just more of the same.
What even to call this? Pathetic? I'm at a loss for words.
Post by: anewaname on May 15, 2022, 02:05:32 pm
Are you worried about hate speech on Twitter? You should worry more about hate speech behind closed doors.
Free speech? What is it really, beyond the right to speak and be heard without having physical force used against you?
You do not have any rights to force others to agree with you.
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2022, 02:23:34 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 02:38:14 pm
Post by: anewaname on May 15, 2022, 08:03:13 pm
This happened before certain tweeters with large followings were banned.
Twitter was a cheap place to develop political representation and bring in political support from other political groups, and it often did it in a timely manner.
I look at Twitter's bot-control as being more important than permanently banning tweeters. A controversy about a particular tweet stream brings that tweet stream into the public view and if there is enough support from other political groups, action is taken against the controversial tweet stream by those other political groups.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 09:50:46 pm
I would be interested in actual statistics and reports, rather than vague assumptions. If you have some, that would be cool.
Post by: Cathar on May 15, 2022, 09:58:36 pm
Mileage may vary on the amount of regulation necessary for political discussion, but Musk is not a sincere actor on that discussion anyway.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2022, 10:11:59 pm
But yeah, I'm all for letting this dumpster fire of a PR stunt die.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 15, 2022, 10:31:05 pm
I'd prefer if NASA was better funded (thus, space exploration by the American state), for example.Colonizing Mars is viable, but not really with current tech. And I'd really prefer if it was done by the state rather than megacorps.Which state?
(Or states... Reminds me of the US/Russian competition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_(1998_video_game)). - A modern classic, IMO, except that it's arguably not modern any more, given it probably came out before many of those reading this were born, never mind the original arcade version that I remember being in a biker café that I used to go to on occasion, between the pinballs. I feel old.)
I share your reluctance about megacorps, but something in me would prefer some (currently indefinable) third-way. Knowing also that I'd probably have a problem with any third-wat that actually evolved the ability to become a colonising power in its own right. Let's hope we just pick the least worst option...
For what it does, Twitter is a decent platform.It is impossible to prevent hate speech behind closed doors. I just hate Nazis and want them to not be able to express themselves online, as a fuck you.
Are you worried about hate speech on Twitter? You should worry more about hate speech behind closed doors.
Free speech? What is it really, beyond the right to speak and be heard without having physical force used against you?
You do not have any rights to force others to agree with you.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 16, 2022, 04:07:11 am
This post suits Sundowner pretty well.It is impossible to prevent hate speech behind closed doors.Not with that attitude.
Post by: TD1 on May 17, 2022, 04:20:28 am
I read that as Sundrop and was likeThis post suits Sundowner pretty well.It is impossible to prevent hate speech behind closed doors.Not with that attitude.
When will the Sundrop hatespeech end
Post by: Strongpoint on May 17, 2022, 05:38:43 am
There should never be any dialogue with fascists.
People change and dialogue is one of the few ways to make them change. The worst you can do is to push people into a bubble. Especially, if we are talking about young people.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 17, 2022, 06:23:57 am
It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk. I'm fine with them getting pushed into echo chambers (and rot there) as long as they shut the hell up on public platforms.There should never be any dialogue with fascists.
People change and dialogue is one of the few ways to make them change. The worst you can do is to push people into a bubble. Especially, if we are talking about young people.
Post by: TD1 on May 17, 2022, 08:16:33 am
It's basically impossible to change a fascist online
An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.
It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.
I say this as someone who grew up in a deeply traditional and homogenous area. It was the quintessential echo chamber, of much the same construction as you would encourage by silencing people. How did I sift through the echoes to find my own thoughts and feelings? Largely, by arguing on this forum. I'd place a stake. I'd defend it. Afterwards, I'd reflect. The aggregate result was that my opinions changed.
((*Though I still find terms such as 'truth' problematic. It's all opinion, and I personally don't feel qualified to label anything objective 'truth.'))
Post by: Strongpoint on May 17, 2022, 10:29:16 am
An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.
It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.
THIS. It is impossible to talk with a person and change their core views in minutes. All you can do - plant seeds. They'll take time to grow. Sure, in many cases, your seeds fall on a barren ground, but if you don't try you'll never (de)convert anyone.
Post by: Quarque on May 17, 2022, 12:00:55 pm
Quote from: MaxTheFox link=topic=179778.msg8374618#msg8374618
It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk.When it comes to diehard fascists this is of course true, so it is good that moderators can permaban people on most platforms if they keep spamming hate speech and don't listen to warnings.
Then again, someone who says something offensive online once is usually not a diehard fascist, so a good moderator only applies permaban as a last resort.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 17, 2022, 10:16:48 pm
Bullshit. The vast majority of fascists are so entrenched in their ways that they will not take your argument to heart. Besides, if they're on the Internet, they have most likely have been exposed to non-fascist thought, and rejected it. Anyways, I'm more interested in them getting hurt.It's basically impossible to change a fascist online
An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.
It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.
I say this as someone who grew up in a deeply traditional and homogenous area. It was the quintessential echo chamber, of much the same construction as you would encourage by silencing people. How did I sift through the echoes to find my own thoughts and feelings? Largely, by arguing on this forum. I'd place a stake. I'd defend it. Afterwards, I'd reflect. The aggregate result was that my opinions changed.
((*Though I still find terms such as 'truth' problematic. It's all opinion, and I personally don't feel qualified to label anything objective 'truth.'))
I am not really interested in trying to deconvert them, that is your misconception about my support of mass bans of fascists online. No. The goal is to punish them. To tell them that yes, the left is out to get them. I want to see them suffer. A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.
It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.
THIS. It is impossible to talk with a person and change their core views in minutes. All you can do - plant seeds. They'll take time to grow. Sure, in many cases, your seeds fall on a barren ground, but if you don't try you'll never (de)convert anyone.
Fair, if someone says something mildly offensive once (and not "I think Hitler was right"), I'd give them a warning and be done.Quote from: MaxTheFox link=topic=179778.msg8374618#msg8374618It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk.When it comes to diehard fascists this is of course true, so it is good that moderators can permaban people on most platforms if they keep spamming hate speech and don't listen to warnings.
Then again, someone who says something offensive online once is usually not a diehard fascist, so a good moderator only applies permaban as a last resort.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 17, 2022, 11:17:23 pm
In my defense, I forgot about my country's Supreme Court
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 01:12:23 am
Quote
A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.
Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 01:33:53 am
They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.QuoteA depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.
Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2022, 01:42:32 am
A young man of 17 years old runs away from an abusive household.
A diehard Nazi Skinhead lets the poor kid sleep in his van.
Then the old grizzled Nazi Skinhead starts filling the kid's ears with hate.
The kid is quite bitter, and the Nazi is being friendly to him. The kid is extremely likely to adopt the Nazi's beliefs, at this time.
Is this kid a Nazi? He'll probably turn out that way for a bit.
Can this kid be reformed? Absolutely, to some degree.
It will depend on how long the kid resides with the Nazi. It may be he'll never shake Nazism entirely.
Or it may be that someone will be nice to him that completely changes his world view.
Conversion 101: prey on the weak
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 04:33:42 am
Well, here is a hypothetical:Kids and teenagers are the exceptions and I hoped it would have been obvious.
A young man of 17 years old runs away from an abusive household.
A diehard Nazi Skinhead lets the poor kid sleep in his van.
Then the old grizzled Nazi Skinhead starts filling the kid's ears with hate.
The kid is quite bitter, and the Nazi is being friendly to him. The kid is extremely likely to adopt the Nazi's beliefs, at this time.
Is this kid a Nazi? He'll probably turn out that way for a bit.
Can this kid be reformed? Absolutely, to some degree.
It will depend on how long the kid resides with the Nazi. It may be he'll never shake Nazism entirely.
Or it may be that someone will be nice to him that completely changes his world view.
Conversion 101: prey on the weak
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 07:02:43 am
They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.QuoteA depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.
Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage
Even if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort. And I am talking about actual white supremacist violent skinhead type of people, not random undereducated bigots. And certainly not about people with right political views. (hey, I am a right-center, if we want to use this primitive labeling system.)
Also, wanting to cause pain and suffering to anyone is not a healthy desire. Yes, our emotions can lead us in this direction, but civilized and moral people don't act this way. We don't act like this even when facing serial murderes and child molesters. Yes, some people are so despicable that we must take a cold-hearted decision to remove them from the society in one way or another but anything beyond that is barbarity.
Post by: TD1 on May 18, 2022, 07:42:11 am
One can only hope that, over time, he will change his mind. ;D
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 08:02:24 am
1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.QuoteA depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.
Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage
Even if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort. And I am talking about actual white supremacist violent skinhead type of people, not random undereducated bigots. And certainly not about people with right political views. (hey, I am a right-center, if we want to use this primitive labeling system.)
Also, wanting to cause pain and suffering to anyone is not a healthy desire. Yes, our emotions can lead us in this direction, but civilized and moral people don't act this way. We don't act like this even when facing serial murderes and child molesters. Yes, some people are so despicable that we must take a cold-hearted decision to remove them from the society in one way or another but anything beyond that is barbarity.
2. I am just returning their feelings towards me and people like me. I want them to feel isolated and attacked. And to see them made humble. Guess how much I care about it being unhealthy? I just care about them getting hurt.
Frankly, in his condemnation of fascists Max is becoming closer and closer to resembling them.Well first of all I am female, and second, if someone doesn't want me to exist then I don't want to hear them talk. It's simple. I hate them as much as they hate me. I will never change my mind. :)
One can only hope that, over time, he will change his mind. ;D
I am authleft, of course I will be ruthless (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/698548422155698187/968074321127936041/unknown.png) towards them. Not being ruthless allows them to spread, and that is the last thing I want. I don't aim to be calm, I don't aim to be nice, but I at least support democracy and rights for minorities, unlike them. I hate it when people draw a false equivalency between me and them just because I hate them to the point of wanting fascism to be outlawed. All it means is that I am not limp-wristed.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 08:36:11 am
1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.
Oh, acceptable collateral damage. I see. I see. The worst kind of crimes against humanity were born from this kind of thinking.
And I suggest you to stop living in the world of labels like fascist or authleft. Actual human beings are way more complex than those words. Those labels may be necessary to vaguely describe political movements and even then they are very approximate
I can say that my political views can be summarized as Nationalist, Liberal, Anti-theist but... it is meaningless. Ask ten different people what those words mean and you'll get very different answers (especially if those people are from different countries). And based on their definition, many will say that a liberal can't be a nationalist because those are opposites, many will say that one can't be a nationalist if he rejects the religion of his ancestors.
This is why I don't bother using those labels, all they do is create confusion.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 08:45:20 am
This would be a good argument if they weren't literal fascists. Again, if someone doesn't want me to exist then I return the favor.1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.
Oh, acceptable collateral damage. I see. I see. The worst kind of crimes against humanity were born from this kind of thinking.
And I suggest you to stop living in the world of labels like fascist or authleft. Actual human beings are way more complex than those words. Those labels may be necessary to vaguely describe political movements and even then they are very approximateOh I know that actual ideologies are more complex. Labels are just groupings. I think they are useful for not describing everything about your beliefs every time you mention them. For me it's probably... Statism, (Christian) Market Socialism, Technocracy, Progressivism.
I can say that my political views can be summarized as Nationalist, Liberal, Anti-theist but... it is meaningless. Ask ten different people what those words mean and you'll get very different answers (especially if those people are from different countries). And based on their definition, many will say that a liberal can't be a nationalist because those are opposites, many will say that one can't be a nationalist if he rejects the religion of his ancestors.
This is why I don't bother using those labels, all they do is create confusion.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 10:21:41 am
Alright Max tell me something, to derail a bit, but what do you think should happen to those who are proven to be mentally ill and possibly dangerous to society and prone to radicalisation.They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.
I'm talking schizophrenics, paranoids, people suffering from paranoia, delusions, people on the autism spectrum, psychopaths and sociopaths, emotionally imbalanced people and those with anger issues. I can point to several cases where people with these problems were perpetrators, or attempted to commit a mass shooting or kill many people.
Actually to make it simpler I'm gonna propose you a mental exercise of sorts, in front of you there's a button, you press it and it will kill every single person with these kinds of mental issues, would you press it?
As for the hypothetical, that's a hard no. I don't support killing fascists or especially people who could become fascists but aren't.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 11:41:45 am
Quote from: MaxTheFox
They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.
So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?
The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 18, 2022, 11:48:11 am
There is no contradiction. One doesn't hold harmful beliefs but is susceptible to potentially forming them, and hardly even likely to (I'm on the autism spectrum myself). The other is already radicalized, actively propagandizing their beliefs and is often too entrenched to fix.Quote from: MaxTheFox
They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.
So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?
The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
You already admitted that perhaps 1% of fascists can be rescued. That is not acceptable if it means that the other 99% run free. It is simply better to isolate them all. I don't care for helping them. You don't understand that their isolation and marginalization is my goal in and of itself.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 12:36:48 pm
You already admitted that perhaps 1% of fascists can be rescued. That is not acceptable if it means that the other 99% run free. It is simply better to isolate them all. I don't care for helping them. You don't understand that their isolation and marginalization is my goal in and of itself.
No, I didn't admit anything like that. I said "if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort."
It doesn't mean that I think that only 1% can be brought out. This percentage is way higher, especially for people under 30
Also, you won't marginalize ideologies by isolating them. You'll make them look like fighters for truth in the eyes of the very people they prey on in their recruitment.
The way to marginalize something is through constant discussion, constant disproving of their lies and\or misconceptions, and constant exposing of corruption of their leaders. It is harder than "hey, let's cancel all members of group X from our bubble and pretend the problem is solved," but it is the only real way to do it.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 18, 2022, 12:39:11 pm
So first off, the fascist position is to isolate and hurt people with mental issues (plus anything that the fascist considers an issue, like ethnicity or sexuality). Fascists only want tolerance (like "free speech") as far as it assists their intolerant agenda. This may seem like an impossible paradox, but it's actually quite simple: Don't tolerate intolerance. I can be against violence and still attack a spree shooter. I guess it's a mix of moral calculus and basic common sense.Quote from: MaxTheFox
They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.
So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?
The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
Every "free speech platform" has been banning the obvious stuff, of course, but it turns out they go further and make sure their chosen ideology is the "freest" speech. They're just liars. Grifters and true believers alike are fine with lying to get what they want.
You know what happens when you try to engage with one of these chuckleheads with actual facts and logic? Look into their studies? Their arguments get absolutely destroyed... and it *doesn't help*. They might spam some "LGBT are grooming!" nonsense in a dozen places and influence thousands of people, and then when you call them on it they'll literally go "I don't care that the article is factually incorrect, LGBT are still groomers". They didn't reason themselves into the position so they cannot be reasoned out of it.
That's not everybody, obviously. How do we reach the targets of this bad-faith propaganda? Engaging the propagandists DOES NOT WORK for that, as youtube debate-bro culture has shown. I figure there are two main situations:
1) Motivated rational people with free time will look into the studies and figure out the truth on their own
2) You feature the targeted minorities in popular culture until they don't appear so strange and scary anymore.
And like, part of situation 1 is making sure those studies and articles are around for anyone who cares to look. That's how my mind was changed on a few things. I would get in emotional and pointless arguments about an issue, enjoy some endorphins, and then someone else would drop some studies and refuse to engage me further. The low-effort and low-pressure is what makes that a good strategy. It got the information to me in a way I could untangle my feelings on my own time. And the low-effort is VITAL to stop the deliberate misinformation campaign we're up against.
I'm not worried not too worried about people in echo-chambers. They're fine to hang out in, but they're inherently boring. Someone hanging out in a radical space is already radicalized, and there's not much we can do (except celebrate the ones who find their way out!). What radicalizes people is someone on national TV offering a scapegoat for all the Everyman's problems: """those people"""
(This is neither a purely left/right thing, but the tankies haven't mobilized a coup here recently. They're not nearly so emboldened, partially because leftists keep dunking on them. Justifiably so. The right is much less principled.)
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 01:00:51 pm
Quote
You know what happens when you try to engage with one of these chuckleheads with actual facts and logic? Look into their studies? Their arguments get absolutely destroyed... and it *doesn't help*.And here you are wrong. It doesn't help in a blink of an eye.
If you ever expect to talk with a person on their views and expect them going "Hey! You are right and I am wrong! Thank you for disproving of what I believed in years with your brilliant logic! I was so stupid!" then yep, it WILL NOT happen.
What will happen is that some of them will remember your facts, remember your logic, process it inside and adjust their position. And it may take years.
Of course "destroying someone's arguments" isn't the best of tactics if you actually want to change someone's opinion (but it is great in public debates to win neutrals\not let neutrals slip there)
Post by: anewaname on May 18, 2022, 07:37:45 pm
You cannot reason with them because of two vectors:
- you have fewer herd-bonds with them
- you offer less protection for them (where "protection" can be physical, social, and/or economic)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 18, 2022, 07:49:42 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 18, 2022, 08:47:52 pm
It turns out that really stupid and emotional arguments can blitzkrieg every "marketplace of ideas" they've been allowed into. They aren't interested in rational discussion, they want to recruit more scared people into their mob.
If anyone wants to try to deconvert these people by PM or in one of the many existing platforms they've already conquered, go right ahead... I got sick of all the culty mindgames and thought-ending mantras. It's also literally dangerous - they fight dirty. Kiwi-farms dirty. They have to because they're weak and cowardly, and they justify it by being scared. Plus we're "NPCs" instead of human beings, you know?
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2022, 08:55:36 pm
This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!
Thank you. You may resume your derailment.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 18, 2022, 09:47:00 pm
Remember folks!
This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!
Thank you. You may resume your derailment.
Also, you would be cancelled in the very same twitter but one group or another
Post by: KittyTac on May 19, 2022, 02:24:16 am
Me: "haha banhammer go bonk"
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 19, 2022, 03:25:29 am
Remember folks!Oh I know, I still support censorship.
This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!
Thank you. You may resume your derailment.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 19, 2022, 04:58:49 am
I also don't want them to suffer. Sometimes, my emotional side does wish them very horrible fates, sometimes I wish for cruel revenge. But my rational side only wants to stop them from being able to cause suffering to others. A bullet between their eyes will do nicely.
I also don't believe in hell, there are no rational reasons to believe that such place exists or is even probable. If I did, I wouldn't wish it to anyone. Infinite suffering for a finite crime is the opposite of justice.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2022, 05:11:55 am
Post by: Quarque on May 19, 2022, 05:58:16 am
In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.
Post by: Starver on May 19, 2022, 08:50:22 am
In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.Possibly the smarter Ukrainians just didn't want to date him?
(One step away from Incel psychology. "The thing that is wrong is definitely not myself, so therefore the only logical reason is <one or other contrived and generally stupid all-encompassing theory which is more full of holes than a rusty collander>...")
Post by: Quarque on May 19, 2022, 10:07:35 am
Possibly the smarter Ukrainians just didn't want to date him?My first impulse was to say exactly that, but I stopped myself and left it there. Not worth the effort.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 19, 2022, 10:56:59 am
Funny, I don't want to silence people who are either actively murdering my compatriots or support the murderers. I want them to be heard loud and clear (I'd also prefer the media to stop presenting their lies as possible "truth" in their stupid quest for "neutrality" but it is a very different topic). I want people to see who they are. And I want a place to engage them in public debate. And I want to know how my enemy thinks. And rarely, I am even ready to show compassion and empathy to people that don't look completely consumed by this, hoping to plant seeds of... something.I already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.
I also don't want them to suffer. Sometimes, my emotional side does wish them very horrible fates, sometimes I wish for cruel revenge. But my rational side only wants to stop them from being able to cause suffering to others. A bullet between their eyes will do nicely.I don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.
I also don't believe in hell, there are no rational reasons to believe that such place exists or is even probable. If I did, I wouldn't wish it to anyone. Infinite suffering for a finite crime is the opposite of justice.See above.
I think you've also shown the loss to the intelligence community from censoring one's enemies.Intelligence against homegrown fascists? Funny joke.
I tried to engage with pro-Putin people on youtube a couple of times. One time the conversation actually seemed to help him see things from a different perspective. Rare, but it happens.See, some are just brainwashed due to propaganda coming from all directions, others are simply either too far gone or not all right in the head. Not to mention how hard it is to change someone's mind online.
In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 19, 2022, 11:40:02 am
Quote
I already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.
I am quite confident that you don't know how Nazis think. I am even more confident than you have no idea how "Nazis" aka the whole radical part of the right political spectrum think. You have simplified dehumanized evil strawmen in your head and it is convenient to hate them to see yourself as a good and just person.
Quote
I don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.
You don't need to repeat this. I understood. I am merely saying that wanting to make people suffer is evil and immoral. Not wanting to help human beings when there is a possibility is also evil and immoral. You need to hear this. Perhaps, later, you will understand this.
Post by: heydude6 on May 19, 2022, 03:53:37 pm
Personally, I believe the root of the problem comes from algorithms designed to feed us personalized information that conforms to our beliefs, rather than the simple presence of toxic information on a platform.
Case in point, the YouTube comments section. As far as I know, Everyone gets the exact same comments presented to them. Though some information does get signal-boosted, it’s shown to everyone including those who want to refute it, which helps curb misinformation.
What I often see there is that whenever someone spouts some crazy bullshit, there will a dozen of people who will dogpile on them to refute their points. It may not change the mind of the original commentor, but a neutral audience usually gets the message and understands why those beliefs are unacceptable and incorrect, both educating and inoculating them against future misinformation. No Censorship required.
This system only breaks down in the comments sections of videos made by the far Right, which are only watched by an incredibly deluded niche. Those places are echo chambers that allow insanity to fester since any person who wanders in will see that the sane voices are drastically outnumbered by the insane.
Thus, I believe that the real enemy is the echo chamber and the systems that funnel impressionable people towards them while simultaneously keeping out the educated. To play the game of censorship, is to play an endless game of Whack-a-mole that will inevitably turn awry once the mallet ends up in the wrong pair of hands (like we are seeing now). We must change the flow of information itself if we are to solve this problem for good, and it must be a system that takes advantage of the differences between true information and false.
False and outrageous information only has the advantage now because we naively designed algorithms that ended up biased to give it the advantage. It is not the only way, but it may require the passing of laws to make such changes profitable though.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2022, 07:31:40 pm
(wow, I seem to be quite the train conductor lately!)
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 19, 2022, 11:32:54 pm
I know they are trash who want to wipe minorities out and end democracy. That is all I ever need to know about them to hate them.QuoteI already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.
I am quite confident that you don't know how Nazis think. I am even more confident than you have no idea how "Nazis" aka the whole radical part of the right political spectrum think. You have simplified dehumanized evil strawmen in your head and it is convenient to hate them to see yourself as a good and just person.
Making people suffer is moral if they are fascists. Helping fascists is also immoral.QuoteI don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.
You don't need to repeat this. I understood. I am merely saying that wanting to make people suffer is evil and immoral. Not wanting to help human beings when there is a possibility is also evil and immoral. You need to hear this. Perhaps, later, you will understand this.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 12:20:46 am
Quote
Making people suffer is moral if they are fascists
Yay! Making people suffer is moral if they are [insert according to your ideology]. Dehumanization 101
No, it isn't. It really isn't. Inflicting suffering can only be moral only if it can prevent greater suffering.
Inflicting suffering to radicals will only radicalize them further and they WILL retaliate in one way or another. It also may make them look like victims and martyrs helping them to recruit more people.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 01:37:28 am
1. I literally have basically zero sympathy for those who want to wipe out minorities.QuoteMaking people suffer is moral if they are fascists
Yay! Making people suffer is moral if they are [insert according to your ideology]. Dehumanization 101
No, it isn't. It really isn't. Inflicting suffering can only be moral only if it can prevent greater suffering.
Inflicting suffering to radicals will only radicalize them further and they WILL retaliate in one way or another. It also may make them look like victims and martyrs helping them to recruit more people.
2. I do not subscribe to utilitarianism.
3. If they are not repressed, they will instead of retaliating, make attacks on their own. And the whole goal of suppressing them is so they find it harder to recruit people.
Post by: King Zultan on May 20, 2022, 01:43:13 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2022, 02:00:46 am
I'm a white male semi-professional heterosexual living in a mostly-free society.
Max....isn't.
Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.
Which admittedly, Anne Frank has some rather decent things to say about humanity.
But yeah. I'm not holding everyone up to that standard.
The other issue is that most of us probably ascribe to a highly individualist worldview. The rights of the one should not be oppressed by the right of the many.
And we're mostly living in cultures where that worldview is the norm.
But not all the world believes that. There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview. The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 02:33:43 am
Max seems so blinded by their hate of what they think Nazis are that I don't think they'd recognize a Nazi if one sat next to them on a bus.What are you trying to say with this? No, they don't have "Nazi" written on their foreheads. When someone says something like "gas the Jews", however, they're either a Nazi or might as well be, and thus need to be silenced.
Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.Exactly. If you ask me to tolerate those who want people like me to not exist, I will rightfully tell you to piss off. And yes I am a collectivist.
I'm a white male semi-professional heterosexual living in a mostly-free society.
Max....isn't.
Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.
Which admittedly, Anne Frank has some rather decent things to say about humanity.
But yeah. I'm not holding everyone up to that standard.
The other issue is that most of us probably ascribe to a highly individualist worldview. The rights of the one should not be oppressed by the right of the many.
And we're mostly living in cultures where that worldview is the norm.
But not all the world believes that. There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview. The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Post by: Strik3r on May 20, 2022, 02:56:35 am
Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.Why? according to her, if you don't pound hateful facist bigots into the ground until their bodies and spirits are broken, the hate they spew will spread and fester.
She simply has neglected to think that this might apply to herself as well. :)
It is often the case that those who call for a lynching will end up hanged with the same noose they intended for others.
But not all the world believes that. There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview. The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.There is no excuse for hate, no matter where it comes from.
Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.Then why even try? Why not just remove her from the discussion, and preferably, the forum? It'd be perfectly in line with her personal beliefs, so she'd have nothing to complain about if she were to be banned for hateful conduct...
...Of course, i don't really think that she should be banned for idle threats and impotent hate on the internet. I don't believe in censorship. is the endless screed about how much she hates "nazis" irritating? yes, but it's about on the same level as chihuahua pissing on my shoe; i'm not gonna kick the dumb little shit for it.
Post by: King Zultan on May 20, 2022, 03:13:30 am
What are you trying to say with this?I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 20, 2022, 04:04:55 am
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.
cut Max some slack.Basically.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 04:19:34 am
Even if we are talking about a child molester who raped dozens of children when I, on an emotional level, actually want this person to suffer (it is a very natural emotion!). I won't make them suffer given a chance. It is IMMORAL. Yes this person should be stopped in one way or another but making them suffer does no good to anyone.
I can understand the pro-censorship position. But you repeatedly state that you want a group of people to suffer for no other damned reason but to PLEASE you.
_____________________
Quote
The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology
Post by: martinuzz on May 20, 2022, 04:34:27 am
QuoteThe idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology
Meh that is overgeneralization. Are traffic lights or maximum road speeds fascism? Are taxes fascism? Are all laws fascism?
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 05:13:54 am
There is a difference between hate aimed at innocent people and hate aimed at those hating innocent people. Something free speech absolutists like you and Strongpoint fail to understand. Yes I would have a problem with being banned for this, for that exact reason: I do not treat all ideologies with equal value. This hate is justified. Go touch grass, I am simply speaking out against people who want me to not exist. And yes, it is correct that forcefully pushing back against them is the only way to stop their opinions from spreading. You cannot reason with the Nazis. It is simply naive to think the vast majority of them can change.Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.Why? according to her, if you don't pound hateful facist bigots into the ground until their bodies and spirits are broken, the hate they spew will spread and fester.
She simply has neglected to think that this might apply to herself as well. :)
It is often the case that those who call for a lynching will end up hanged with the same noose they intended for others.But not all the world believes that. There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview. The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.There is no excuse for hate, no matter where it comes from.Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.Then why even try? Why not just remove her from the discussion, and preferably, the forum? It'd be perfectly in line with her personal beliefs, so she'd have nothing to complain about if she were to be banned for hateful conduct...
...Of course, i don't really think that she should be banned for idle threats and impotent hate on the internet. I don't believe in censorship. is the endless screed about how much she hates "nazis" irritating? yes, but it's about on the same level as chihuahua pissing on my shoe; i'm not gonna kick the dumb little shit for it.
I know they want to silence me too (or worse), probably. They would have no matter my take on this. Why would I be spineless? You do not understand what it is like to be a target of bigotry, Strik3r. You wouldn't insult and belittle me if that were the case.
I only keep going on about this because people are arguing with me. It's not like I started this thread. If you don't like me talking about this, stop responding.
This would apply if they weren't the ones calling for the death of black people, LGBT, Jews. Again, I'm not exactly targeting guiltless people. If you think we as a society should just stand there and do nothing against bigotry then fine. I will think you are a bad person for it, however. I don't think you should suffer for it, I just think it's a shit take.What are you trying to say with this?I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.
Max, you still don't get it...1. Then we have different moralities. Suffering and being silenced is a valid punishment for being a fascist. It might indeed do good to other people by setting an example against fascism, but more importantly, it punishes the fascist themself.
Even if we are talking about a child molester who raped dozens of children when I, on an emotional level, actually want this person to suffer (it is a very natural emotion!). I won't make them suffer given a chance. It is IMMORAL. Yes this person should be stopped in one way or another but making them suffer does no good to anyone.
I can understand the pro-censorship position. But you repeatedly state that you want a group of people to suffer for no other damned reason but to PLEASE you.
_____________________QuoteThe idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology
2. I want them to suffer to set an example against fascism, and to punish them for bigotry. Not just to please me, though I do enjoy them getting their comeuppance.
3. Fascism is necessarily bigoted, without bigotry it's not fascism but merely collectivism or authoritarianism.
Look, I just want the ones calling for your people to be massacred to be made to shut the hell up. I admire your adherence to your ideals in the face of actual genocide, but I don't really understand it.
Y'all honestly want me to tolerate people wanting to torture and/or kill me. No thank you.
Post by: KittyTac on May 20, 2022, 05:33:27 am
Also, the insults and vague threats aimed at her were uncalled for.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 05:54:40 am
One can argue that the targets of hate hating the haters back for their hate is a counterproductive, self-damaging, or maybe non-Christian (where applicable) approach. But there is no moral equivalence here. One is reactive to the other. Max is not just like the neonazis for wanting them to stop making her life miserable by all means available. Same as - topical analogy incoming - the defending Ukrainians are not just as immoral as the invading Russians when they shoot to kill or boil with rage.Yeah basically this. I can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi, and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets, but I simply don't have it in myself to even want to try. Even being in the same forum/chatroom as one fills me with anger. Quit expecting me to treat someone who wants me dead with the same respect as someone who doesn't, or even worse, saying I and them are equivalent (looking at you, Strik3r).
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.cut Max some slack.Basically.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 06:15:24 am
Quote
Then we have different moralities.We certainly do. My vision of morality can be explained in two sentences
1) Action is moral when it decreases worldwide suffering and\or increases worldwide happiness
2) Action is immoral when it decreases worldwide happiness and\or increases worldwide suffering
Sometimes it is really hard to tell if an action is 1 or 2. Sometimes it is damn easy.
Punishing someone for the sake of punishing is certainly a 2.
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Quote
I can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets
Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 06:21:55 am
We certainly do. My vision of morality can be explained in two sentencesThe happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?
1) Action is moral when it decreases worldwide suffering and\or increases worldwide happiness
2) Action is immoral when it decreases worldwide happiness and\or increases worldwide suffering
Sometimes it is really hard to tell if an action is 1 or 2. Sometimes it is damn easy.
Punishing someone for the sake of punishing is certainly a 2
Nah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.QuoteI can understand a cishet white male trying to talk a Nazi out of being a Nazi and they might actually have a better chance of success due to not being targets
Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...
I also don't want to physically round them up and torture them, if I didn't make that clear. It's more about deplatforming and emotional/psychological harassment.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 06:46:35 am
Quote
The happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?Understood, morality for you is something determined by what benefits you or the people you like... I have no more questions.
Quote
Nah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.
Sure! I don't understand. My country is currently being invaded by people who are killing Ukrainins for being Ukrainians! How the hell can I understand something like that?
You are arrogant and immoral. I tell you this straight in your face hoping that, in time, you'll see how wrong you are.
And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it. Also, I am confident that your list of neo-nazies and fascist is far far wider than actual fascists and neo-nazies.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 07:07:25 am
1. It's less that and more like I can lose all sympathy for people who are absolute garbage.QuoteThe happiness of those who want innocent people dead for no reason other than being minorities does not matter to me at all. Why would I want someone who wants to kill me for being gay to be happy...?Understood, morality for you is something determined by what benefits you or the people you like... I have no more questions.QuoteNah, they (or the vast majority of them) think anyone who is not white and cishet's opinions are irrelevant. They want to torture me first regardless of what I have to tell them or want to do to them anyways. You don't understand that.
Sure! I don't understand. My country is currently being invaded by people who are killing Ukrainins for being Ukrainians! How the hell can I understand something like that?
You are arrogant and immoral. I tell you this straight in your face hoping that, in time, you'll see how wrong you are.
And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it. Also, I am confident that your list of neo-nazies and fascist is far far wider than actual fascists and neo-nazies.
2. You said it's easier to convince a bigot to not be a bigot while being a minority. That was my rebuttal. I didn't say you didn't understand what bigotry was.
3. And I think you are the arrogant and immoral one and you're arguing in bad faith at this point.
4. OK first of all, how on God's green Earth is "cishet" bigoted by itself? It just means cis and heterosexual, and I hold absolutely nothing against those people. And no it isn't. I have far less of a problem with regular conservatives for example. I do hate some non-fascist ideologies however, like Stalinism, anarcho-capitalism, and anarcho-primitivism.
We don't live in a children's cartoon. Talking to people who want you dead and kindly asking them to not want you dead will do absolutely nothing. The only real way to fight that kind of hate is censorship. All this conversation taught me so far is that free speech absolutists like telling threatened minorities to shut up and let bigots run free. Understood.
For the record, Strongpoint, I don't think you are a deeply terrible person, unlike the far-right or that other guy I rebuked here. You are a good person at heart, it's just that your views are immoral. I can only hope that you improve.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 20, 2022, 07:30:23 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 07:41:16 am
For f's sake, what's with this language? Neither of you is immoral, or has immoral views (that we know of). The bar is quite a bit higher than disagreeing on the hot topic de jour.Yeah I take that back, I got a little heated. Gee, I'm getting flashbacks.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2022, 09:11:47 am
Nah, you being a target has nothing to do with that. If anything, conversation with people one has prejudice toward is the best way to destroy that prejudice. But them learning that you want to torture them for your own amusement will certainly not help...Hard NO.
This is basically telling a victim of domestic violence that they need to reconcile with their abuser.
Fascism has ALWAYS been a racially-motivated ideology. Don't let anyone tell you differently!QuoteThe idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.
Ironically, this is one of the key ideas of fascism. Nowadays people simplify fascism to "guys that hate jews and other minorities" but it never was the core of the ideology
Oppressing/blaming minorities was always a central component, at least as long as Hitler was in any way associated with it.
I'm not familiar enough with Mussolini's Fascism, but I think even he at least blamed non-Italians for all of Italy's problems, and did blame Jews to scapegoat people into feeling better about themselves.
One can argue that the targets of hate hating the haters back for their hate is a counterproductive, self-damaging, or maybe non-Christian (where applicable) approach. But there is no moral equivalence here. One is reactive to the other. Max is not just like the neonazis for wanting them to stop making her life miserable by all means available. Same as - topical analogy incoming - the defending Ukrainians are not just as immoral as the invading Russians when they shoot to kill or boil with rage.Eh, at this point the wisest thing to do is just sheep Sage Il Palazzo's words.
When one's not the target of oppression, they can - and should! - do all they can to persuade as many neonazis as possible to abandon their wicked ways. Be it through debate or compassion or systemic action. But this is expecting Jesus-level shit from Max here. Some people can do it, but they're going beyond the line of duty.
Hell, I'm full of analogies today. The spouse beater might benefit from counselling, but don't blame the other partner for wanting a restraining order right now.cut Max some slack.Basically.
I had written something more, but I think this do more to heal some wounds rather than re-traumatize.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 20, 2022, 09:19:37 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 20, 2022, 09:21:49 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 20, 2022, 11:16:05 am
It is that Max is under no obligation to respect or show tolerance to an ideology and a group of people who would gladly turn them against a wall and shoot. Respect is not a factor in this situation.
I can relate to them, I exist in a culture which doesn't even registers me as a valid person inside its moral code. Alongside that, I live hidden inside a religion that orders me dead. A significant portion of its adherents would have me hurled off an apartment and splatter.
There is hardly any reasoning with these kinds of people and doctrines. My hatred is not as intense as Max's, but I won't reconcile either; There is nothing about this to reconcile.
As far as I can see, there is no one true answer or one valid course of thought here. As with everything that concerns humans, there is a whole lot of fine nuance in this. Engaging with fascists may be appopriate or futile in different situations. It may or may not pay off.
Such is life I guess? I dunno.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2022, 11:38:41 am
Quote
And now I am confident that you know next to nothing about people you hate. The use of bigoted labels like cishets proves it.Pffff, yeah okay XD I'm definitely taking you very seriously now.
Like trust me, there are secret places where hurt queer people congregate and blow off steam about the daily bigotry of "normal" people, and the words we use are a lot ruder than cishet. What an astounding display of fragility. Maybe you shouldn't be clamoring for free speech if you're so easily offended by clinical terms. Perhaps you need a safe space?
That's a lot to parsely over. But we'd do minty to remember we're all cumin this together:o lewd!!
It's also just mind-boggling to me that people can call Twitter an echo-chamber. Good luck expressing any opinions without being bombarded with low-effort quips - it's what the platform is optimized for. It's not a place for productive discussion. It twists otherwise reasonable people into base attention seekers, mechanically.
It's also still a platform for every hateful bigot, and I'm talking genocidal fucks, who has the two brain cells necessary to avoid making deliberate calls for violence. Dumbass leftists get banned for threatening to "eat the rich" (or in one case, "do a Carthage" on someone for insulting their friend's mom) just like dipshits like Alex Jones get banned for "X is literally a demon and it would be great if someone helped God kill them". It's a platform based on a weird gimmick, and it has a little utility, but it is an awful place to try to reason with people.
Anyway sorry for interrupting the meme-ing, here's my contribution:
(https://i.imgur.com/KBLSsEE.png)
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2022, 11:53:38 am
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 12:17:44 pm
Quote
This is basically telling a victim of domestic violence that they need to reconcile with their abuser.
Not a good analogy. No one is saying that Max should approach some homophobe and go like "You know, we are both wrong and let us try to find a common ground."
It is also not a safe idea...
But when it is safe, it is a far better approach to go "You are wrong. I am not what you think. I am this and this. I do not wish for us to be enemies." especially if we are talking about a random person with no history of actual evil acts (and there are a big distance between doing evil acts, advocating for evil acts, and merely having stupid prejudices)
Quote
It is that Max is under no obligation to respect or show tolerance to an ideology and a group of people who would gladly turn them against a wall and shoot. Respect is not a factor in this situation.
Respect is earned, not given so no one has such an obligation. Tolerance, on the other hand, is rather useful for the normal functionality of society. If you don't show tolerance - don't expect one. It is that simple.
It is freaking easy to tolerate opinions you find fine. Tolerance makes sense only when you actively dislike those opinions. And tolerance doesn't mean silence. For example, tolerance never stopped me from saying outright blasphemous things straight in the face of religious persons when I found it necessary.
Oh, sometimes I wish to silence all religious propaganda so hard...
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 12:45:47 pm
Quote
Like trust me, there are secret places where hurt queer people congregate and blow off steam about the daily bigotry of "normal" people, and the words we use are a lot ruder than cishet. What an astounding display of fragility.
*Rolls eyes*
I have been called a Nazi, a liberast*, a stinky gay (usually for confronting homophobes), transphobe, misogynist, feminist's c***licker, satanist and many, many more words.
*Russian slur combining liberal and gay-pedophile in one word
I couldn't care less about any stupid label someone tries to put on me. Words like "cishet" stink of hating people not for actions, not even for views or opinions but for their very nature and this type of labels, quite frankly, disgust me. But it has nothing to do with fragility.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 20, 2022, 01:37:20 pm
Spoiler: My thoughts as someone who has spent a lot of time with the religious side (click to show/hide)
TLDR: Gotta attack the ideology of oppression against LGBTQ with information and ideas whenever safely possible. Avoid situations and people where you may be in danger. Take any opportunity you can to talk.
And mind you, I'm talking about religious people in the USA, within my sphere of vision. I have no experience elsewhere.
Post by: McTraveller on May 20, 2022, 02:20:41 pm
Spoiler: TLDR (click to show/hide)
I second the notion that you can't have reasoned discourse about it when being physically threatened though.
Post by: brewer bob on May 20, 2022, 02:35:11 pm
But when it is safe, it is a far better approach to go "You are wrong. I am not what you think. I am this and this. I do not wish for us to be enemies." especially if we are talking about a random person with no history of actual evil acts (and there are a big distance between doing evil acts, advocating for evil acts, and merely having stupid prejudices)
In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.
Outright fascists/nazis on the other hand should be denied all platforms to spread their hate and recruit new folk into their ranks. Again, this won't make them change their minds or go away, but it will make it harder for them to grow their numbers. (Nor does it touch the underlying issues of what cause the rise of fascism, but that's a much larger topic.)
The worst is when borderline fascists are invited to some political debates on TV with, let's say members of minorities, so that "both sides" will be represented. At least here this kind of shit has contributed very much to the normalizing of racist language (which would've been unthinkable ~15 years ago). Now even larger media outlets use certain terms coined from said fascists. This has been part of the tactics the new wave of the fascism/nazism (of the 2000s): participate in public debates, no matter what the topic derail it and start talking about immigration (for example).
Gotta attack the ideology of oppression against LGBTQ with information and ideas whenever safely possible. Avoid situations and people where you may be in danger. Take any opportunity you can to talk.
Also, as a reminder for those who participate in online debating/confronting with the fash: make sure your online persona can't be connected to your real life person. Those pieces of shit collect information about people on the "wrong side" (and have acted upon it).
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 20, 2022, 02:49:42 pm
I hope I won't regret participating in this discussion... But here goes:
In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.
Outright fascists/nazis on the other hand should be denied all platforms to spread their hate and recruit new folk into their ranks. Again, this won't make them change their minds or go away, but it will make it harder for them to grow their numbers. (Nor does it touch the underlying issues of what cause the rise of fascism, but that's a much larger topic.)
I completely agree with all of this, 100%. But I'd like to posit that while it is definitely unfair to say that an LGBTQ person should not have to be (Edit: primarily) responsible for educating people... there's not really another avenue for it to come from. It's not fair for someone to have to justify their own existence in that way, but this kind of fighting has to be done. I do what I can as a straight dude who has gained some relative understanding on the subject, but I'm never going to be the same as someone with a horse in the race, as it were.
Also, it's oddly fitting for this to tangent be discussed on a thread about social media, where a lot of this is perpetuated/echoed.
Post by: Cathar on May 20, 2022, 06:48:44 pm
Snoop
A couple opinions I have on the topic :
• It is not the job of a persecuted minority to educate bigots. True. But it is the job - I'd say even the only job- of activists. While I was politically active in the (radical?) left, everyone I worked with was far too pure to soil their hands with discussing with hostiles or neutral parties - so in the end, they remained among themselves and for the group I was on, infighted to their way to dissolution.
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?
• Medias are absolutely complicit in the rise of fascism, and have been as long as I can remember. Even in old political debates from the 90', you had public figures protesting against that specific tendency. I think it was either Desproges or Servat who said something like that "they put a jew and an antisemite in the same room, and call it a balanced debate". But the era of mediatic monopoly is at its end. Activism now mostly occur on social medias, and we are under no obligation to leave the final word to the establishment.
• No matter what you do, remain anonymous. Doesn't matter where you stand on the political spectrum. Being nameless is your best protection against persecution.
Post by: heydude6 on May 20, 2022, 07:09:57 pm
Snoop
A couple opinions I have on the topic :
• It is not the job of a persecuted minority to educate bigots. True. But it is the job - I'd say even the only job- of activists. While I was politically active in the (radical?) left, everyone I worked with was far too pure to soil their hands with discussing with hostiles or neutral parties - so in the end, they remained among themselves and for the group I was on, infighted to their way to dissolution.
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?
This is gold!
A key thing to take away from this though is that not all minorities are activists, and they don't have to be. If you are not committed to spreading the word of your cause, then you are fully within your right to kick someone out of your sight for saying inappropriate things. You're allowed to say "I'm too tired to deal with this shit" without further explanation, and sometimes it's even necessary if the asshole is persistent enough to drive even the most reasonable man to insanity.
Post by: brewer bob on May 20, 2022, 07:25:05 pm
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I've had similar experiences when I was still active in the local "scene". Really frustrating discussions, infighting and such, but I won't delve further into that.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2022, 09:17:08 pm
LOLSpoiler: Get real (click to show/hide)
So good, so good
Post by: Strongpoint on May 20, 2022, 10:23:32 pm
In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.
It is not anyone's job to educate bigots. After all, every time you try to change a person for the better it is an act of altruism, an act of spending your valuable time to make a person and, by extension, the society better.
But people have a reasonable responsibility to not make the situation worse. Merely saying "I want to make you suffer for your views." is an immoral act by itself. All it can do is either do nothing at all or push the person deeper into their destructive radicalism. Actually doing something to make them suffer...
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 20, 2022, 11:18:17 pm
But when it is safe, it is a far better approach to go "You are wrong. I am not what you think. I am this and this. I do not wish for us to be enemies." especially if we are talking about a random person with no history of actual evil acts (and there are a big distance between doing evil acts, advocating for evil acts, and merely having stupid prejudices)1. But I do wish for me and them to be enemies. They hate me for existing, why would I bend over for them? I will be unable to convince them otherwise anyways.
Respect is earned, not given so no one has such an obligation. Tolerance, on the other hand, is rather useful for the normal functionality of society. If you don't show tolerance - don't expect one. It is that simple.
It is freaking easy to tolerate opinions you find fine. Tolerance makes sense only when you actively dislike those opinions. And tolerance doesn't mean silence. For example, tolerance never stopped me from saying outright blasphemous things straight in the face of religious persons when I found it necessary.
2. I do not tolerate intolerance.
I couldn't care less about any stupid label someone tries to put on me. Words like "cishet" stink of hating people not for actions, not even for views or opinions but for their very nature and this type of labels, quite frankly, disgust me. But it has nothing to do with fragility.Tell me how "cishet" is hateful. It can be, but so can any other label. But it wasn't in the context I used.
To both of you, I kinda agree. If they are clearly merely ignorant, sure I will try educating them. Happened a few times, actually. If they are knowingly hateful, they can honestly fuck off.Snoop
A couple opinions I have on the topic :
• It is not the job of a persecuted minority to educate bigots. True. But it is the job - I'd say even the only job- of activists. While I was politically active in the (radical?) left, everyone I worked with was far too pure to soil their hands with discussing with hostiles or neutral parties - so in the end, they remained among themselves and for the group I was on, infighted to their way to dissolution.
"It's not my job to educate them" is a sentence that I have heard verbatum from activists. Not their job ? Then what is ?
This is gold!
A key thing to take away from this though is that not all minorities are activists, and they don't have to be. If you are not committed to spreading the word of your cause, then you are fully within your right to kick someone out of your sight for saying inappropriate things. You're allowed to say "I'm too tired to deal with this shit" without further explanation, and sometimes it's even necessary if the asshole is persistent enough to drive even the most reasonable man to insanity.
But I think the situation is, in fact, better when bigots suffer as a consequence of their bigotry. It isn't better when they feel happier, at any rate.In the case of an ignorant bigot and not an actual fascist, sure, they might change their mind. But it should never be expected (nor be the responsibility) of persons whom the hate targets. It's not their job to educate bigots.
It is not anyone's job to educate bigots. After all, every time you try to change a person for the better it is an act of altruism, an act of spending your valuable time to make a person and, by extension, the society better.
But people have a reasonable responsibility to not make the situation worse. Merely saying "I want to make you suffer for your views." is an immoral act by itself. All it can do is either do nothing at all or push the person deeper into their destructive radicalism. Actually doing something to make them suffer...
Post by: King Zultan on May 21, 2022, 01:23:47 am
You're acting as if people on the internet saying they want to kill people and people physically going out and killing someone is the same thing, and quite frankly I have never seen how people saying things has done anything more than hurt peoples feelings and hurt feelings are not the same thing as being injured or killed. Also how you feel about me has no affect on me, as I'm sure how I feel about you has no affect on you.This would apply if they weren't the ones calling for the death of black people, LGBT, Jews. Again, I'm not exactly targeting guiltless people. If you think we as a society should just stand there and do nothing against bigotry then fine. I will think you are a bad person for it, however. I don't think you should suffer for it, I just think it's a shit take.What are you trying to say with this?I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 01:25:13 am
It is definitely not the same as actually going out and killing people, but I still think it should not be allowed. It's not even about hurt feelings, it's about not wanting people calling for the death of minorities to exist online.You're acting as if people on the internet saying they want to kill people and people physically going out and killing someone is the same thing, and quite frankly I have never seen how people saying things has done anything more than hurt peoples feelings and hurt feelings are not the same thing as being injured or killed. Also how you feel about me has no affect on me, as I'm sure how I feel about you has no affect on you.This would apply if they weren't the ones calling for the death of black people, LGBT, Jews. Again, I'm not exactly targeting guiltless people. If you think we as a society should just stand there and do nothing against bigotry then fine. I will think you are a bad person for it, however. I don't think you should suffer for it, I just think it's a shit take.What are you trying to say with this?I'm saying you're blinded by hate, and the fact that you believe it's moral to beat and cause suffering on people you don't like puts you in the same boat as them, because you want the same things to happen to them that they want to happen to others, makes you just as bad as them.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 21, 2022, 02:24:10 am
Quote
1. But I do wish for me and them to be enemies. They hate me for existing, why would I bend over for them? I will be unable to convince them otherwise anyways.
Why are you so insisting on anyone saying you to bend? No one said that.
As for wishing to be enemies with anyone... The best way to deal with enemies is to make them stop being enemies and people do change. But even if change is impossible, it is better to be in a cold war situation than escalate to widespread violence.
I actually look at American politics with horror. Both sides are going full speed to a civil war while doing a happy choo-choo sound (No, I don't think there will be a Civil war as an army vs army. But as terrorism against terrorism... Oh yes, it is already there and it is growing)
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I do not tolerate intolerance.Can you define what it means to tolerate someone?
Quote
Tell me how "cishet" is hateful. It can be, but so can any other label.Every time when a label is used to describe a group with any other word than this group uses, it is, at the very least, disrespectful.
But the funny thing... Cishet isn't even a real group. It describes something that doesn't exist, it creates a group where there is NO group at all. White heterosexual men are NOT a unified force with some unified agenda. And when such groups are invented it is scary. It is how humans get dehumanized not even for their views but for who they are.
Quote
But I think the situation is, in fact, better when bigots suffer as a consequence of their bigotry. It isn't better when they feel happier, at any rate.
Do you actually think that a happy person is more likely to take a gun and go for a rampage in a nearby gay club? Bigotry and violence grow from unhappiness (usually from self-inflicted unhappiness but others can contribute, too)
Also, it is simply unjust to punish people when there is no crime.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 02:36:00 am
Quote1. But I do wish for me and them to be enemies. They hate me for existing, why would I bend over for them? I will be unable to convince them otherwise anyways.
Why are you so insisting on anyone saying you to bend? No one said that.
Walking up to a homkphobe and trying to convince them to not be a homophobe is basically bending.
As for wishing to be enemies with anyone... The best way to deal with enemies is to make them stop being enemies and people do change. But even if change is impossible, it is better to be in a cold war situation than escalate to widespread violence.
It is impossible to change them, and letting them speak will just let their opinions spread.
I actually look at American politics with horror. Both sides are going full speed to a civil war while doing a happy choo-choo sound (No, I don't think there will be a Civil war as an army vs army. But as terrorism against terrorism... Oh yes, it is already there and it is growing)
Notice how it's mostly the far-right responsible for terrorism.QuoteI do not tolerate intolerance.Can you define what it means to tolerate someone?
To be willing to put up with their opinions.QuoteTell me how "cishet" is hateful. It can be, but so can any other label.Every time when a label is used to describe a group with any other word than this group uses, it is, at the very least, disrespectful.
I heard some cis and heterosexual people use that exact label for themselves.
But the funny thing... Cishet isn't even a real group. It describes something that doesn't exist, it creates a group where there is NO group at all. White heterosexual men are NOT a unified force with some unified agenda. And when such groups are invented it is scary. It is how humans get dehumanized not even for their views but for who they are.
They are not an unified group, but they nevertheless face less oppression which is what I meant. I am not dehmanizing them whatsoever, and you are digging this up because you ran out of arguments to throw at me.QuoteBut I think the situation is, in fact, better when bigots suffer as a consequence of their bigotry. It isn't better when they feel happier, at any rate.
Do you actually think that a happy person is more likely to take a gun and go for a rampage in a nearby gay club? Bigotry and violence grow from unhappiness (usually from self-inflicted unhappiness but others can contribute, too)
No but if they are happy, they are validated for their beliefs and thus will spread those beliefs, leading to more general abuse. Morton's Fork.
Also, it is simply unjust to punish people when there is no crime.
Bigotry should be a crime. And online, the original topic of this thread, the "crime" is breaking the code of conduct.
Post by: King Zultan on May 21, 2022, 03:56:25 am
You know you can ignore them right, I mean most of them are just saying shit like that to get the approval of the others but at the end of the day none of them are gonna act upon what they talk about, so in the end they're just a bunch of dip shits spouting crap on the internet that can safely be ignored.You're acting as if people on the internet saying they want to kill people and people physically going out and killing someone is the same thing, and quite frankly I have never seen how people saying things has done anything more than hurt peoples feelings and hurt feelings are not the same thing as being injured or killed. Also how you feel about me has no affect on me, as I'm sure how I feel about you has no affect on you.It is definitely not the same as actually going out and killing people, but I still think it should not be allowed. It's not even about hurt feelings, it's about not wanting people calling for the death of minorities to exist online.
Bigotry should be a crime.But who decides what counts as bigotry and the punishment for it, also it sounds like a vague thing the government that implements it could use to jail those that go against their regime.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 04:33:25 am
1. I don't want to ignore them, I want them to be silenced. Besides, it's hard to ignore them in places like Twitter.You know you can ignore them right, I mean most of them are just saying shit like that to get the approval of the others but at the end of the day none of them are gonna act upon what they talk about, so in the end they're just a bunch of dip shits spouting crap on the internet that can safely be ignored.You're acting as if people on the internet saying they want to kill people and people physically going out and killing someone is the same thing, and quite frankly I have never seen how people saying things has done anything more than hurt peoples feelings and hurt feelings are not the same thing as being injured or killed. Also how you feel about me has no affect on me, as I'm sure how I feel about you has no affect on you.It is definitely not the same as actually going out and killing people, but I still think it should not be allowed. It's not even about hurt feelings, it's about not wanting people calling for the death of minorities to exist online.Bigotry should be a crime.But who decides what counts as bigotry and the punishment for it, also it sounds like a vague thing the government that implements it could use to jail those that go against their regime.
2. People keep saying this, but Canada has anti-hate-speech laws and isn't an authoritarian hellhole. The slippery slope is an useless fallacy. The law does not need to be objective.
Post by: Cathar on May 21, 2022, 04:34:53 am
And online, the original topic of this thread, the "crime" is breaking the code of conduct.
Well, the original topic is more of the implications of Musk's buyout of Twitter. Which is turning out to be the most expensive shitpost of the year. Dude don't have enough cash to fullfill its contract and is now wriggling left and right to get out of it. And, as I tried to explain multiple times, he is not in favor of free speech, he's just a racist idiot.
You guys are barking at the wrong tree from the beggining.
I really don't get why you people are so eager to abandon the idea of political liberalism to the right.
Maybe you just haven't thought this through.
Bigotry should be a crime.I'm trying very hard to walk the mile in your shoes... but there is no way anyone with a bit of political acumen can agree with that statement. Bad thoughts will never be a crime in a democracy.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 21, 2022, 04:53:57 am
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Walking up to a homkphobe and trying to convince them to not be a homophobe is basically bending.
So, if I, an atheist, tell a religious person that they believe in an evil fairy tale, I am bending to them? Good to know!
Telling someone "you are wrong" is not bending
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It is impossible to change them, and letting them speak will just let their opinions spread.Impossible to change them is evidently not true. At least say - it is unlike to change them.
And censorship doesn't really work against extremist ideologies, you'll just push them into more isolated channels, where it will be harder to fight them with counterpropaganda and prevent potential recruits from joining them. While also making them look like persecuted martyrs. Bringing a problem out of your sight won't solve it.
Also, I have quite egoistic reasons to be anti-censorship. I want to have the ability to stay stuff like "Christianity is a stupid religion about an eternal omnipotent creator of the Universe who magically fucked a hairless monkey to conceive himself in an act of recursive incest. Amazingly, millions of people believe such schizophrenic nonsense," and not get arrested for offending someone's feelings and being an anti-religious bigot
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To be willing to put up with their opinions.
Your definition makes it more confusing
Post by: Starver on May 21, 2022, 05:06:56 am
(Ditto 'normie', 'neurotypical', 'white', 'woke', 'liberal' and (inversely, in various ways) 'queer' and the N-word. Maybe not always necessarily a badge of honour, for the membersip, but not automatically a condemnation unless the caster of the term intends it to be an aspertion upon the target. The latter two also tend to be terms only to be used to describe yourself (or if explicitly invited to by those who can do by dint of their own membership, in very careful circumstances) otherwise you might easily get thought to be using it detractingly, after being successfully reclaimed for the "us" of the respective communities from the one or other degree of historic "anti-Us" usage . Especially the N-word, but I'd probably not casually use the Q one to(wards) someone's face either. Except entirely in the more innocent Enid Blyton context.
But I'm happy to be thought of as cishet, in an "allied" way. As much as there's any accuracy to such an absolutist term. Having it thrown at me in a slanging match from a non-cishet individual who seems to think I cannot be an ally would be saddening, but mostly because of their own prejudices, not because it is prejudicious in and of itself.
Of course, in a text-only community like this, the cues to work out how it is meant (and taken) are limited to the explicit (or the aftermath) and leaves open the possibility of my being called something and I take it as a complement.
(Or I choose to. I've been called a "jannie" by some 4chan-inspired wannabe, in another locale recently, and it just amuses me to think/say, that yes, I am keeping the place clean and helping to clear up your deliberate mess.)
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 05:59:51 am
Bad thoughts won't, but publicly expressing that you want all gays/blacks/whatever to be killed should not be legal. There is no contradiction with democracy here, nor is there a slippery slope. Inciting discrimination or violence against minorities is pretty clear-cut.Bigotry should be a crime.I'm trying very hard to walk the mile in your shoes... but there is no way anyone with a bit of political acumen can agree with that statement. Bad thoughts will never be a crime in a democracy.
1. You misunderstood. Trying to convince someone dead-set on hating you for what you are to not hate you, rather than simply hating them back, is bending over.QuoteWalking up to a homkphobe and trying to convince them to not be a homophobe is basically bending.
So, if I, an atheist, tell a religious person that they believe in an evil fairy tale, I am bending to them? Good to know!
Telling someone "you are wrong" is not bendingQuoteIt is impossible to change them, and letting them speak will just let their opinions spread.Impossible to change them is evidently not true. At least say - it is unlike to change them.
And censorship doesn't really work against extremist ideologies, you'll just push them into more isolated channels, where it will be harder to fight them with counterpropaganda and prevent potential recruits from joining them. While also making them look like persecuted martyrs. Bringing a problem out of your sight won't solve it.
Also, I have quite egoistic reasons to be anti-censorship. I want to have the ability to stay stuff like "Christianity is a stupid religion about an eternal omnipotent creator of the Universe who magically fucked a hairless monkey to conceive himself in an act of recursive incest. Amazingly, millions of people believe such schizophrenic nonsense," and not get arrested for offending someone's feelings and being an anti-religious bigotQuoteTo be willing to put up with their opinions.
Your definition makes it more confusing
2. So unlikely that it might as well be impossible.
3. First of all, if they're out of sight, they're not expressing their evil opinions publicly, which is exactly what I want. Whoever seeks their echo chambers out to join them is probably a lost cause from the get-go. And no, they will not look like martyrs. Remember, censorship of fascists already happens in many communities, nobody thinks of them as martyrs.
4. I think you are wrong about this, but yeah I agree with the sentiment that religious freedom should be a thing. It's if you then say "kill all Christians", then you should be silenced, not that I think you believe that. Censorship is not a binary thing.
5. I don't know what is confusing about that.
Post by: Cathar on May 21, 2022, 06:38:10 am
Bad thoughts won't, but publicly expressing that you want all gays/blacks/whatever to be killed should not be legal. There is no contradiction with democracy here, nor is there a slippery slope. Inciting discrimination or violence against minorities is pretty clear-cut.
Inciting violence is already a crime, including in the US, if it leads to violence being commited - in which case it is covered by conspiracy laws, making the agitator liable for the same crime as the actual culprit (amusingly, this means Trump would face treason charges had he not be under presidential immunity).
Most countries have common sense free speech limitations, but they are justifed on an individual basis, as individual exceptions to the general rule of free speech.
I mean, if that's what you mean by "Bigotry should be a crime", well, it already is... Not sure I want it to go further tho.
Post by: brewer bob on May 21, 2022, 06:41:13 am
And censorship doesn't really work against extremist ideologies, you'll just push them into more isolated channels, where it will be harder to fight them with counterpropaganda and prevent potential recruits from joining them. While also making them look like persecuted martyrs. Bringing a problem out of your sight won't solve it.
Pushing them into isolated channels makes it much harder for them to recruit. It doesn't solve the issue, but is an effective way to prevent hate from spreading. It won't make them look like martyrs except for those who hold the same views or are sympathetic to their cause. No sensible person likes fascism.[1]
But yes, it won't in itself solve the problem, as will not talking with fascists/bigots and changing their minds. Both are some kind of "band-aid fixes" that don't address the underlying issues giving rise to such thoughts (e.g., economic inequality, etc.).
[1] Added note: this method doesn't work with fascists involved in party politics or public figures. I'm mostly talking about "street level" fascists. Combating fascism on a parliamentary level is a different thing and I don't think anyone has found any solid methods that work.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 07:08:29 am
I think even if it doesn't lead to violence being committed, it should also be illegal. That's about as far as I'm willing to go however.Bad thoughts won't, but publicly expressing that you want all gays/blacks/whatever to be killed should not be legal. There is no contradiction with democracy here, nor is there a slippery slope. Inciting discrimination or violence against minorities is pretty clear-cut.
Inciting violence is already a crime, including in the US, if it leads to violence being commited - in which case it is covered by conspiracy laws, making the agitator liable for the same crime as the actual culprit (amusingly, this means Trump would face treason charges had he not be under presidential immunity).
Most countries have common sense free speech limitations, but they are justifed on an individual basis, as individual exceptions to the general rule of free speech.
I mean, if that's what you mean by "Bigotry should be a crime", well, it already is... Not sure I want it to go further tho.
But noooo, bad ebil leffist Max wants literally 1984. Muh freeze peach!
Post by: Strongpoint on May 21, 2022, 07:10:42 am
1. Hate is destructive and irrational. It only produces more hate and suffering. It is a natural emotion to hate back. But rational humans should be able to not be controlled by their emotions and understand that evil and immoral actions against people you hate are still evil and immoral actions.
2. Easier to hate them this way, isn't it? It is also easier to say that all of those are losers and humanity would be better if all those bigots just disappear. That they are incapable of loving and no one loves them. That there are no doctors, scientists, engineers, artists among them... That many of them still do more good than harm.
3. Nobody views fascists as martyrs and protectors... Who and why joins them then? Also, political ideology is a slightly different beast and differed from the ideas of that ideology.
4. Inciting violence is not tolerated and is illegal. But let us be honest, you don't want to limit censorship to that. Phrases like "*insert homophobic slur* are sinful disgusting deviants." don't call for violence but I have no doubts that you want those banned, too. There are also gray areas like Rolan7's comic, which can be interpreted as inciting violence.
Personally, I don't care much about stuff like "You are a servant of Satan, who is beyond redemption and should be executed." because the chances that person actually means it and is ready to act in this way are really, really low.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 07:24:58 am
Yes, numbers are more convenient than spaghetti1. But I think it is good for them to suffer. I don't care about rationality. We fundamentally disagree and it is pointless to argue about this.
1. Hate is destructive and irrational. It only produces more hate and suffering. It is a natural emotion to hate back. But rational humans should be able to not be controlled by their emotions and understand that evil and immoral actions against people you hate are still evil and immoral actions.
2. Easier to hate them this way, isn't it? It is also easier to say that all of those are losers and humanity would be better if all those bigots just disappear. That they are incapable of loving and no one loves them. That there are no doctors, scientists, engineers, artists among them... That many of them still do more good than harm.
3. Nobody views fascists as martyrs and protectors... Who and why joins them then? Also, political ideology is a slightly different beast and differed from the ideas of that ideology.
4. Inciting violence is not tolerated and is illegal. But let us be honest, you don't want to limit censorship to that. Phrases like "*insert homophobic slur* are sinful disgusting deviants." don't call for violence but I have no doubts that you want those banned, too. There are also gray areas like Rolan7's comic, which can be interpreted as inciting violence.
Personally, I don't care much about stuff like "You are a servant of Satan, who is beyond redemption and should be executed." because the chances that person actually means it and is ready to act in this way are really, really low.
2. Well it is true that it is insanely hard to convert them. And quit trying to guilt-trip me, I hate them all regardless of who they love or who they are. There are very few of them in such skilled jobs now anyways, or they are good at hiding it in which case I don't really care.
3. People join them because they get misinformed about minorities. This hate eventually entrenches itself and, in many cases, is impossible to dislodge.
4. I'd begrudgingly tolerate that, actually. I'd ban them online if I was an admin, but I wouldn't give them a fine or anything IRL, only because it's an actual slippery slope. Now, "*insert homophobic slur* are sinful disgusting deviants and should be forced into conversion therapy." should be illegal because it incites torture. Also, inciting violence is currently only illegal in many jurisdictions if it leads to actual violence.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 21, 2022, 11:04:18 am
Quote from: A God-Fearing Twitter Account
1. But I think it is good for them to suffer. I don't care about rationality. We fundamentally disagree and it is pointless to argue about this.
2. Well it is true that it is insanely hard to convert them. And quit trying to guilt-trip me, I hate them all regardless of who they love or who they are. There are very few of them in such skilled jobs now anyways, or they are good at hiding it in which case I don't really care.
3. People join them because they get misinformed about God. This hate eventually entrenches itself and, in many cases, is impossible to dislodge.
4. I'd begrudgingly tolerate that, actually. I'd ban them online if I was an admin, but I wouldn't give them a fine or anything IRL, only because it's an actual slippery slope. Now, "*insert homophobic slur* are sinful disgusting deviants and should be forced into conversion therapy." should be illegal because it incites torture. Also, inciting violence is currently only illegal in many jurisdictions if it leads to actual violence.
Wow, I only had to change a single word in your manifesto to make it from a religious bigot talking about LGBTQ who stops just sort of physical torture. Good thing hate is justified as long as someone else hates you back, or else there'd actually be something wrong with the way bigots feel about minorities. Racism = Solved too, I guess.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 21, 2022, 11:25:53 am
But sorry Dun, that replacement doesn't even technically work (point 4) and it only works at all because she keeps using "they" and "them" instead of spelling it out. Even if she did spell it out, I still don't agree with your point. For example:
"I don't want fascists in office"
"I don't want gays in office"
- These statements are very different. One is prejudice against an inherent trait which has little to do with political office. The other is justified "prejudice" against a malicious ideology of hate getting more power.
Spiritually I think it's good to avoid hating people as much as possible, but it's a natural emotion to feel against aggressors. Love may be a better strategy, much of the time, but sometimes that's a lot to demand of people.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 11:39:10 am
Again, hate is indeed justified if you are being unrelentingly hated first. Of course you can pretend I hate minorities, but that is simply not true. It's simply fighting back. Basically, what Rolan said. "Prejudice" isn't actually prejudice if they struck first.Quote from: A God-Fearing Twitter Account1. But I think it is good for them to suffer. I don't care about rationality. We fundamentally disagree and it is pointless to argue about this.
2. Well it is true that it is insanely hard to convert them. And quit trying to guilt-trip me, I hate them all regardless of who they love or who they are. There are very few of them in such skilled jobs now anyways, or they are good at hiding it in which case I don't really care.
3. People join them because they get misinformed about God. This hate eventually entrenches itself and, in many cases, is impossible to dislodge.
4. I'd begrudgingly tolerate that, actually. I'd ban them online if I was an admin, but I wouldn't give them a fine or anything IRL, only because it's an actual slippery slope. Now, "*insert homophobic slur* are sinful disgusting deviants and should be forced into conversion therapy." should be illegal because it incites torture. Also, inciting violence is currently only illegal in many jurisdictions if it leads to actual violence.
Wow, I only had to change a single word in your manifesto to make it from a religious bigot talking about LGBTQ who stops just sort of physical torture. Good thing hate is justified as long as someone else hates you back, or else there'd actually be something wrong with the way bigots feel about minorities. Racism = Solved too, I guess.
Post by: Quarque on May 21, 2022, 11:45:29 am
Spiritually I think it's good to avoid hating people as much as possible, but it's a natural emotion to feel against aggressors.Agree so much. I try not to hate those who bullied me to the point of near-suicide when I was a kid. It's difficult.
As for the paradox of tolerance, well there is no good answer. It is impossible to avoid being intolerant to intolerance. The option to ban people from online platforms is a raw necessity, just as having police and judges is required for a functioning society - although power abuse by police is a danger in itself, much like power abuse by moderators is. Where should you draw the line? I don't know, I'm glad I'm not a moderator.
Anyway, most of all I just hope you guys are doing okay. Much love from an anonymous person on the internets to you all.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 21, 2022, 01:19:29 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 21, 2022, 10:48:19 pm
BTW, Max what % of Russians do you hate? It is a very homophobic country, after all.Quite a lot, but many are simply hammered by propaganda about gay people and can change with time, so I hate them less.
Post by: King Zultan on May 22, 2022, 03:15:44 am
1. I don't want to ignore them, I want them to be silenced. Besides, it's hard to ignore them in places like Twitter.1. Every time I've heard silenced used like that it usually refers to having the people in question disappear, be killed, or have them found after committing suicide in a suspicious way.
2. People keep saying this, but Canada has anti-hate-speech laws and isn't an authoritarian hellhole. The slippery slope is an useless fallacy. The law does not need to be objective.
2. I read about that law and it seemed very week and hard to get an arrest for, so it sounds like something that's more to make people feel better than to do what it says it does.
But noooo, bad ebil leffist Max wants literally 1984. Muh freeze peach!This sounds and looks incredibly similar to stuff immature teenagers say
Since everyone involved is deeply entrenched in their stance on the topic of internet Nazis that never seem to do anything outside the internet, I what to know what you think of the actual Nazis from Russia that are currently killing people in the Ukraine and since you've said what you want to happen to the internet Nazis what about the actual ones?
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 22, 2022, 03:48:42 am
1. Well here it simply means literally being silenced, by being censored.1. I don't want to ignore them, I want them to be silenced. Besides, it's hard to ignore them in places like Twitter.1. Every time I've heard silenced used like that it usually refers to having the people in question disappear, be killed, or have them found after committing suicide in a suspicious way.
2. People keep saying this, but Canada has anti-hate-speech laws and isn't an authoritarian hellhole. The slippery slope is an useless fallacy. The law does not need to be objective.
2. I read about that law and it seemed very week and hard to get an arrest for, so it sounds like something that's more to make people feel better than to do what it says it does.
2. That's why I said it needs to go further.
This sounds and looks incredibly similar to stuff immature teenagers sayIt was a mockery of some of the stuff that was said to me.
Since everyone involved is deeply entrenched in their stance on the topic of internet Nazis that never seem to do anything outside the internet, I what to know what you think of the actual Nazis from Russia that are currently killing people in the Ukraine and since you've said what you want to happen to the internet Nazis what about the actual ones?Kill 'em. Or imprison 'em for life with no possibility of parole.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 22, 2022, 09:21:37 am
Feel free to Google translate it. In short: It calls to skin Nazies (read Ukrainian POWs) alive in front of their loved ones. Typical hate speech, nothing unusual. What is Important, this thing was reported and several people got the - this post doesn't break Facebook's guidelines.
How does this happen? Easily, the Eastern European segment of Facebook is moderated by... Russians making it a kinda pro-Russian place in informational warfare. Ukrainians are banned as soon as a single letter of rules is broken while getting a hate-spewing Russian banned is a quite hard task.
Corruption of people who make decisions of what is allowed and what is not is one of the reasons why censorship is a bad idea.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 22, 2022, 10:21:40 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 22, 2022, 10:50:34 am
Speaking about moderators and social networks. here (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1050485949216731&id=100027660065676) is a very... hmm... community friendly post in Facebook.The problem is with Russia and Facebook's admins appointing Russian shills, not with censorship in general. It works fine in other regions. Nice cherry picking.
Feel free to Google translate it. In short: It calls to skin Nazies (read Ukrainian POWs) alive in front of their loved ones. Typical hate speech, nothing unusual. What is Important, this thing was reported and several people got the - this post doesn't break Facebook's guidelines.
How does this happen? Easily, the Eastern European segment of Facebook is moderated by... Russians making it a kinda pro-Russian place in informational warfare. Ukrainians are banned as soon as a single letter of rules is broken while getting a hate-spewing Russian banned is a quite hard task.
Corruption of people who make decisions of what is allowed and what is not is one of the reasons why censorship is a bad idea.
It also points out the trouble with banning Nazis is that everyone calls people they don't like Nazis, which means everyone gets banned.This would apply if reports were not reviewed by moderators. As long as actual fascists get banned, I'm fine with online censorship. Online free speech is a pile of shit.
Post by: MusicMagician on May 22, 2022, 11:08:57 am
It's still a social media no matter what, though Facebook also have their problems.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 22, 2022, 11:11:30 am
The problem is with Russia and Facebook's admins appointing Russian shills, not with censorship in general. It works fine in other regions. Nice cherry picking.That's not cherry picking. That's the whole point of the anti-censorship argument. Or, more generally, of the >liberal< bit in liberal democracy. One shouldn't put in place any systems whose protective coverage is contingent on the current ruling political majority. The system should be a compromise that protects the rights of everyone, regardless of who is in power. Otherwise the 'wrong' people will eventually grab the reins, and use the system to oppress you.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 22, 2022, 11:17:10 am
They will not, that is simple paranoia. They are a small, yet dangerous, fringe, so they are safe to harass. Fascism is discredited by the majority of the population.The problem is with Russia and Facebook's admins appointing Russian shills, not with censorship in general. It works fine in other regions. Nice cherry picking.That's not cherry picking. That's the whole point of the anti-censorship argument. Or, more generally, of the >liberal< bit in liberal democracy. One shouldn't put in place any systems whose protective coverage is contingent on the current ruling political majority. The system should be a compromise that protects the rights of everyone, regardless of who is in power. Otherwise the 'wrong' people will eventually grab the reins, and use the system to oppress you.
Hate speech is not free speech. I don't care for the "free speech" of those who want me dead anyways. I refuse to fold and wish to allow them to keep calling for my death or "conversion therapy".
Post by: Strongpoint on May 22, 2022, 11:32:57 am
Quote
The problem is with Russia and Facebook's admins appointing Russian shills, not with censorship in general. It works fine in other regions. Nice cherry picking.
Y can cause X, here is an example of X already happening in this particular case. This is not cherry-picking.
Cherry-picking would be if I took this particular case and said "here, this is a typical current situation in all social networks."
And how exactly can you be so sure about other regions? I'd love to know your sources about, let's say, the Arabic segment. I sincerely doubt that there are no similar problems.
Quote
Hate speech is not free speech. I don't care for the "free speech" of those who want me dead anyways. I refuse to fold and wish to allow them to keep calling for my death or "conversion therapy".
I noticed a trend in your arguments. You always say "I, me, my." Interests of the society seem to be not of your concern. Are you sure you are a collectivist?
Post by: Quarque on May 22, 2022, 12:07:33 pm
One shouldn't put in place any systems whose protective coverage is contingent on the current ruling political majority. The system should be a compromise that protects the rights of everyone, regardless of who is in power. Otherwise the 'wrong' people will eventually grab the reins, and use the system to oppress you.This is where moderators online are a lot like the police. In states where tyrants grabbed power, the police turns into a tool of oppression; they become a force of evil rather than good. That doesn't mean that the ideal society is one without any police.
Of course we should always try to engage people, rather than isolate. But if someone just keeps spreading hate, intimidating others and / or encouraging violence, at a certain point there is no better option than to silence them. If the worst trolls never face any consequences, it actually limits the free speech of their victims.
Post by: brewer bob on May 22, 2022, 04:55:14 pm
If the worst trolls never face any consequences, it actually limits the free speech of their victims.
Exactly. This is why online forums have turned into complete shitholes: sensible people start leaving the forums (or stay quiet) when everything gets flooded under a pile of toxic vomit with nobody putting an end to it. And when the hate-mongers notice that they can get away with it, what's to stop them from invading other online communities?
That said, I wouldn't trust any government or governmental institution (especially the police) to handle the situation. They will eventually use any passed laws to suppress dissent (and this can happen in "Western democracies" too).
Post by: eerr on May 22, 2022, 08:40:35 pm
I bet there might even be a technique or two that would solve the issue slightly better in a handful of cases.
For instance, if someone finds themselves banned on twitter, they just get angry and make a new account. But if they are shadowbanned, aka it looks to them like they can still post, then people don't react the same way.
and people who aren't state sponsored entities generally aren't persistent enough to make a second account preemptively.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 22, 2022, 10:32:15 pm
1. The thing is, Y only causes X if Y is done poorly. That is not a strong argument against Y.QuoteThe problem is with Russia and Facebook's admins appointing Russian shills, not with censorship in general. It works fine in other regions. Nice cherry picking.
Y can cause X, here is an example of X already happening in this particular case. This is not cherry-picking.
Cherry-picking would be if I took this particular case and said "here, this is a typical current situation in all social networks."
And how exactly can you be so sure about other regions? I'd love to know your sources about, let's say, the Arabic segment. I sincerely doubt that there are no similar problems.QuoteHate speech is not free speech. I don't care for the "free speech" of those who want me dead anyways. I refuse to fold and wish to allow them to keep calling for my death or "conversion therapy".
I noticed a trend in your arguments. You always say "I, me, my." Interests of the society seem to be not of your concern. Are you sure you are a collectivist?
2. You used it to argue against censorship in general.
3. I don't know. But I was focusing on the West and Eastern Europe.
4. Simply a shorthand for "people like me", "LGBT", etc. No shit the interests of the society concern me. You are arguing in bad faith.
1. Yep.If the worst trolls never face any consequences, it actually limits the free speech of their victims.
Exactly. This is why online forums have turned into complete shitholes: sensible people start leaving the forums (or stay quiet) when everything gets flooded under a pile of toxic vomit with nobody putting an end to it. And when the hate-mongers notice that they can get away with it, what's to stop them from invading other online communities?
That said, I wouldn't trust any government or governmental institution (especially the police) to handle the situation. They will eventually use any passed laws to suppress dissent (and this can happen in "Western democracies" too).
2. See, that happens if the law is vague. I'm not saying every law should be objective, but there should be a hard line at encouraging violence or discrimination against minorities. That way you can't really use it to suppress dissent. I guess the far-right gets shafted but that's inherent to it, and honestly I'm not sorry at all for them.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 22, 2022, 11:11:22 pm
Quote
but there should be a hard line at encouraging violence or discrimination against minorities
Perhaps... Just perhaps. It should be but there should be a hard line at encouraging violence or discrimination against people
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 22, 2022, 11:55:11 pm
Yeah fair enough.Quotebut there should be a hard line at encouraging violence or discrimination against minorities
Perhaps... Just perhaps. It should be but there should be a hard line at encouraging violence or discrimination against people
Post by: Starver on May 23, 2022, 04:04:33 am
But if they are shadowbanned, [...]Not to wade into the actual Shadowbanning arena, but just to say that I bet most of those who suspected they were shadowbanned were just not doing the right things to get the right message through the right algorithm to get to the right sort of people to stoke their ego (either by agreeing with them, and effusively saying so, or disagreeing with them, and ditto but more with insults).
When your message just gets lost like an echo in a distant canyon, your own opinion that you should attract all of the attention tends to override any good sense about these things and you invent reasons (as I said recently[1], "the problem can't be me, it must be <some grand conspiracy theory....>"), including the misconception of a Shadowban enacted upon poor persected you.
Not that I'd prefer that everyone tries hard(er) to say the most quotable, and thus most extreme, things they can get away with to get out of the "meh... nothing to see here" doldrums and right up to the edge of a true ban (which some might also accept as a valid result, being a much more tangible evidence that they've been Sticking It To The Man, for whatever version of Man they think they should be Sticking It to). And, though the evidence was that the mythically-singular Algorithm does of course quite like to increase the extremities of viewpoints expressed and shown (but only as an unintentional means to a different end, generally), I imagine that this has been held back a bit, so...
Yeah, I think some people are being less exposed, but 'silently', at least in their opinion - and all for the best. Doesn't seem to be holding back many other, though, so it's obviously one of these strangely inept 'omnipotent cabal' things where there is a huge all-powerful 'secret' society which is apparently controlling all the world's media but for some reason letting people freely discuss their whole mechanism of control in exquisite detail, rather than just sending round the 'heavies' to quietly disappear anyone who even tries to mention them.
(No need to reply, BTW. I'm not that *twitch* needy. And, anyway, I just need to go an answer that ominous and heavy knock at the door... Which is odd, as I've got a doorbell.)
[1] And nobody even commented about!!! Waaaahh! Unfair!!111!!! (...just kidding. Honest!)
Post by: King Zultan on May 23, 2022, 04:37:26 am
2. That's why I said it needs to go further.But I highly doubt they will as I figure it's more there to make it seem like they did something while in fact they did fuck all, it was probably just done to get them reelected.
I'm gonna assume that was somewhere else as I haven't seen anyone here say anything like that.This sounds and looks incredibly similar to stuff immature teenagers sayIt was a mockery of some of the stuff that was said to me.
Do you have any plans to aid in making that a reality?Since everyone involved is deeply entrenched in their stance on the topic of internet Nazis that never seem to do anything outside the internet, I what to know what you think of the actual Nazis from Russia that are currently killing people in the Ukraine and since you've said what you want to happen to the internet Nazis what about the actual ones?Kill 'em. Or imprison 'em for life with no possibility of parole.
The thing is from what I've noticed is that most social media platforms seem to automate shit like this so instead of a real person you get some half assed AI thing that'd go around banning anything that even barely met it's criteria.It also points out the trouble with banning Nazis is that everyone calls people they don't like Nazis, which means everyone gets banned.This would apply if reports were not reviewed by moderators. As long as actual fascists get banned, I'm fine with online censorship.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 23, 2022, 06:00:34 am
1. This is a hypothetical anyways, none of us will ever affect policy of anything.2. That's why I said it needs to go further.But I highly doubt they will as I figure it's more there to make it seem like they did something while in fact they did fuck all, it was probably just done to get them reelected.I'm gonna assume that was somewhere else as I haven't seen anyone here say anything like that.This sounds and looks incredibly similar to stuff immature teenagers sayIt was a mockery of some of the stuff that was said to me.Do you have any plans to aid in making that a reality?Since everyone involved is deeply entrenched in their stance on the topic of internet Nazis that never seem to do anything outside the internet, I what to know what you think of the actual Nazis from Russia that are currently killing people in the Ukraine and since you've said what you want to happen to the internet Nazis what about the actual ones?Kill 'em. Or imprison 'em for life with no possibility of parole.The thing is from what I've noticed is that most social media platforms seem to automate shit like this so instead of a real person you get some half assed AI thing that'd go around banning anything that even barely met it's criteria.It also points out the trouble with banning Nazis is that everyone calls people they don't like Nazis, which means everyone gets banned.This would apply if reports were not reviewed by moderators. As long as actual fascists get banned, I'm fine with online censorship.
2. Not here, except for one person railing against me, who isn't you or Strongpoint.
3. No because not only do I have no power over this, I am not anywhere near Ukraine.
4. This is also not a problem with the concept of censorship. Either improve the AI (AI technology is... not really in its infancy anymore, but more like in its childhood) or hire actual moderators.
Post by: King Zultan on May 24, 2022, 03:36:52 am
2. Not here, except for one person railing against me, who isn't you or Strongpoint.I don't think I've been doing any kind of railing.
3. No because not only do I have no power over this, I am not anywhere near Ukraine.You could if you find any names of these soldiers you could turn them to someone that can.
4. This is also not a problem with the concept of censorship. Either improve the AI (AI technology is... not really in its infancy anymore, but more like in its childhood) or hire actual moderators.Just gonna say that most of the people in charge of social media seem more interest in money than anything, which means they'll do whatever's the cheapest so instead of people they'll get the cheapest crappiest AI they can get.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 24, 2022, 04:53:44 am
1. And how do you think I would do that? Ukraine presumably has people better skilled at gathering intel doing that already.3. No because not only do I have no power over this, I am not anywhere near Ukraine.You could if you find any names of these soldiers you could turn them to someone that can.4. This is also not a problem with the concept of censorship. Either improve the AI (AI technology is... not really in its infancy anymore, but more like in its childhood) or hire actual moderators.Just gonna say that most of the people in charge of social media seem more interest in money than anything, which means they'll do whatever's the cheapest so instead of people they'll get the cheapest crappiest AI they can get.
2. Well, honestly, the AI does an okay job most of the time even now. Sure there are false positives, but what the hell do you expect. I'm mostly content with the current state of censorship on the Western Facebook. I still don't use it aside from lurking because I don't need it.
Post by: King Zultan on May 25, 2022, 02:48:46 am
1. And how do you think I would do that? Ukraine presumably has people better skilled at gathering intel doing that already.Loose lips sink ships and all that, I'm sure some body will say something about some soldier doing something at some point and you could report that.
Also I'm still not sure what the point of social media is, or why anyone would want it.
Post by: Starver on May 25, 2022, 04:19:39 am
Also I'm still not sure what the point of social media is, or why anyone would want it.Isn't it something to do with electrofishing a river? ;)
Post by: brewer bob on May 25, 2022, 05:38:46 am
Also I'm still not sure what the point of social media is, or why anyone would want it.
People need a place to post those photos of their latest meal or say they just had coffee or complain about kids these days. Or something like that, I dunno.
Post by: None on May 25, 2022, 09:14:05 am
1. And how do you think I would do that? Ukraine presumably has people better skilled at gathering intel doing that already.Loose lips sink ships and all that, I'm sure some body will say something about some soldier doing something at some point and you could report that.
Also I'm still not sure what the point of social media is, or why anyone would want it.
Isn't it a little asinine to require someone to take action in the wake of war to prove one's stance against Nazism while the rest of us can safely, passively, acceptably, quietly disdain it? You're asking an unreasonable burden of a fellow forumite.
Post by: brewer bob on May 25, 2022, 09:31:56 am
Isn't it a little asinine to require someone to take action in the wake of war to prove one's stance against Nazism while the rest of us can safely, passively, acceptably, quietly disdain it? You're asking an unreasonable burden of a fellow forumite.
And it's possible that they have done something, but it's better not to post it on the interwebs due to security concerns (nor is it our business, really).
Post by: Strongpoint on May 25, 2022, 11:00:40 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 25, 2022, 11:59:40 am
Also I'm still not sure what the point of social media is, or why anyone would want it.
People need a place to post those photos of their latest meal or say they just had coffee or complain about kids these days. Or something like that, I dunno.
You forgot the cats. Oh Lord the cats.
Post by: brewer bob on May 25, 2022, 12:04:03 pm
You forgot the cats. Oh Lord the cats.
Good reminder. That's the only thing I check on my FB account which I still have for some reason. Cats. Cats, everywhere.
Post by: heydude6 on May 25, 2022, 05:40:15 pm
This is a stark contrast to the original position I posted.
Post by: King Zultan on May 26, 2022, 03:32:35 am
Isn't it a little asinine to require someone to take actionNever said they had to.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 26, 2022, 05:53:24 am
No, Max just needs to stop spending so much time on their computer, do her dishes, buy groceries and overthrow the entire Russian government, it's not that hard smh.And then have a pint in the Winchester and wait for this all to blow over
Post by: TD1 on May 26, 2022, 09:06:06 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 26, 2022, 09:11:14 am
So is Elon gonna buy twitter or not?The deal fell through, so no.
Post by: TD1 on May 26, 2022, 09:22:44 am
Russian propaganda spreading if Elon Musk gets ahold of twitter. People are already too easily swayed by it, and I worry that people will start to shit on Ukrainians the way Americans shat on Vietnam veterans.,
but Twitter's still the quintessential echo chamber.
Also, the deal hasn't fallen through. Just put on hold. Everyone's still saying they're committed to it.... eventually, and conditionally.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 26, 2022, 09:29:08 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 26, 2022, 09:58:34 am
But what if the Winchester is overun by alien robot clones?We'll head to the World's End and have a cornetto
Post by: TD1 on May 26, 2022, 02:50:56 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 26, 2022, 03:00:03 pm
Post by: Starver on May 26, 2022, 03:12:12 pm
Post by: TD1 on May 26, 2022, 03:20:41 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 26, 2022, 03:44:52 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 26, 2022, 05:42:16 pm
Post by: TD1 on May 26, 2022, 05:55:06 pm
Post by: brewer bob on May 26, 2022, 06:45:29 pm
Post by: Starver on May 27, 2022, 02:36:00 am
Post by: TD1 on May 27, 2022, 04:21:54 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 28, 2022, 01:32:06 pm
Post by: Starver on May 28, 2022, 05:14:47 pm
Post by: The_Explorer on May 28, 2022, 07:05:34 pm
With that said. I took a very long extended break from twitter, and this section of the forums (as may have noticed) and anything politics at all. Was the greatest, no stress or worries. But I do still like to keep informed, but it won't be what I do all the time or every day just occasionally. I can talk about doing stuff and trying to make a difference, but in the end, can't really do anything as some basement dweller with words, and I'm extremely anti-social, so its not like gonna go outside and start being super charismatic and getting people to change or also want to make a difference lol. So I'd rather just keep up with occasional news and my focus went from what I was doing before, to just focusing on my close family and the few close friends I've kept over the years.
But yeah, with all that said...its nice to see this thread turned into something very positive (and very different than it started lol). I haven't disappeared, just like I said, I've pretty much avoided all the political stuff (not 100% of it, but the vast majority compared to before). Granted, china I've kept a bit up to date on only as I've said in the ameripol thread in the past, I have a couple friends (and a family member) over there.
Post by: King Zultan on May 30, 2022, 03:46:58 am
Post by: muldrake on May 31, 2022, 05:01:40 pm
Post by: None on May 31, 2022, 08:30:22 pm
verified people
Post by: EuchreJack on May 31, 2022, 10:00:36 pm
Relevant
Post by: King Zultan on June 01, 2022, 12:35:09 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 01, 2022, 02:07:57 am
Post by: Strongpoint on June 01, 2022, 06:56:47 am
I usually keep my opinions to myself there because... Because saying anything results in me being blocked by someone, leaving me without an ability to (conveniently) read people I disagree with but consider it to be a useful source of information. Of course, Twitter being Twitter, staying silent isn't enough to not get blocked, people started using scripts to block users who follow a particular user(s)
Post by: Starver on June 01, 2022, 09:42:27 am
I pick and choose my platforms. Yes, almost anybody can read this (and anybody who cares to can work out how to reply to it) but the whole rather blanket-like Twitterverse just doesn't appeal to me. I got the true "everyone everywhere" thing out of my system back in the old days of Usenet (for the contemporary idea of "everyone", but otherwise pretty much also "everywhere") before the incursion of AOL, WebTV, GoogleGroups, etc made it as much an unregulated (and virtually unlimited) Twitter as anything else between that point and the real Twitter became as seemingly ubiquitous.
(I only actually fell off Usenet when an ISP change caused loss of access to the easy feed, much too niche a thing for the new system to provide as standard, and too much effort to establish a third-party gateway that wasn't Google, or reliant upon consistent access to the local academic network and servers...)
No, don't expect to see me on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Discord, SteamForums[2], Geocities, FIDOnet, InterMUD, Wikia, 4chan, Grindr, Mumsnet, etc... Or at least don't expect to realise that I'm also on any of these... If you think I am, it's very probably not me you're looking at, at all... ;)
[1] There are others, I'm afraid to admit, but I'm cheating upon you with other fora under completely different names and even slightly different styles of participation. Yes, I'm a bit of a love-rat, I'm afraid.
[2] Did make an account there, for DF reasons, but until I bought something I had no posting priviledges and I just didn't yet have the yen to do that (even if I could have had the ¥!) so... lapsed. And now the necessary login details are stuck on an older device, as well...
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 01, 2022, 10:37:26 am
Post by: heydude6 on June 01, 2022, 01:03:51 pm
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/05/31/tech/supreme-court-texas-social-media-ruling/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/05/31/tech/supreme-court-texas-social-media-ruling/index.html)Wow.
Relevant
Regardless of how you feel about the concept of free speech in general, this is just another showcase of the blatant corruption that's going on within the supreme court. It's almost like the right-wing equivalent of the Roe-v-wade repeal. They're not even trying to come up with a legal justification for it this time, which is very troubling.
It reminds me too much of late-democratic Rome.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 01, 2022, 02:00:15 pm
I'm not saying you should like or dislike it, but I want to make sure everyone understand it, to the best of my limited ability.
First, Texas passes a law that restricts the ability of Facebook, Twitter and YouTube to moderate content on their platforms.
The state (Texas) argued that HB 20 does not violate the First Amendment because the law seeks to regulate tech platforms' conduct toward their users, not the companies' speech, and that it seeks to designate them as "common carriers" akin to railroads and phone companies.
Facebook, Twitter and YouTube then requested the Supreme Court prevent that law from taking effect until the Supreme Court can decide on it.
By a 5-4 vote, the justices granted an emergency request from the tech industry to block a lower court order that would have allowed the law to take hold, pending legal challenges.
This is NOT a Final Decision by the Supreme Court, although it could hint at what the final decision might be.
As for the actual Judges:
In an unusual alignment the five justices in the majority were Chief Justice John Roberts, Stephen Breyer, Brett Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett and Sonia Sotomayor.
Liberal Justice Elena Kagan was joined by conservative justices Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch, who would have denied the request.
The Right was split 50/50 on this one.
I'm not exactly sure how this amounts to "blatant corruption". It's a NEW law and a reasonably new legal theory, and the Supreme Court said "Hey now, let's look at this a bit before forcing this down Big Tech's throat". One judge could flip, and the Texan law will likely force Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc to revise how they operate.
There is no legal justification because it is not final decision. It would GREAT if the Judges explained themselves, but not required at this stage of the proceedings.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 01, 2022, 02:12:18 pm
The equivalent would be passing a law that says, for example, Fox News needs to provide air time to people they don't want to run, because those people want air time and denying them is tantamount to censorship.
Social media platforms need to have the same rights to moderate their content as any other media firm. Just because I want to use it for my own purposes does not mean I have a right to force those companies to host me.
Post by: King Zultan on June 02, 2022, 02:34:34 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 02, 2022, 03:12:14 am
Who needs social media when we have this forum, also I just realized that this the only place I talk to people since I don't really talk to anyone in RL.
Yeah, just seal of the entrance. Who needs sunlight?
Post by: voliol on June 02, 2022, 05:31:25 am
Who needs social media when we have this forum, also I just realized that this the only place I talk to people since I don't really talk to anyone in RL.
Yeah, just seal of the entrance. Who needs sunlight?
Once Dwarf Fortress gets
Post by: Starver on June 02, 2022, 06:02:25 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 02, 2022, 06:57:33 am
Post by: Strongpoint on June 02, 2022, 10:08:00 am
I want that law to get shot down because I like it when the far-right gets censored online. It delegitimizes them.
Do you like when far-lefts get censored online?
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 02, 2022, 10:13:16 am
Yes, if they are tankies.I want that law to get shot down because I like it when the far-right gets censored online. It delegitimizes them.
Do you like when far-lefts get censored online?
Post by: King Zultan on June 03, 2022, 01:25:02 am
Who needs sun light anyway, that's what I always say!Who needs social media when we have this forum, also I just realized that this the only place I talk to people since I don't really talk to anyone in RL.
Yeah, just seal of the entrance. Who needs sunlight?
Also what the hell is a tankies?
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 03, 2022, 01:48:41 am
Post by: Strongpoint on June 03, 2022, 04:52:47 am
Modern use of the word is more like - "not true left like us, just like Stalin and Mao who never were true left." At least it is the use I see the most.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 03, 2022, 05:35:47 am
Tankie comes from the ancient times of 1956, when some British communists went "We are normal and those party members who support USSR moving tanks in Hungry are not and now we have a word to describe them."They are true left, just the wrong kind of left. I consider them ideological enemies just like the fascists, the ancaps, and any variety of Luddite or other reactionary.
Modern use of the word is more like - "not true left like us, just like Stalin and Mao who never were true left." At least it is the use I see the most.
Post by: TD1 on June 03, 2022, 09:06:41 am
Post by: None on June 03, 2022, 09:09:00 am
Post by: Frumple on June 03, 2022, 10:27:52 am
"No one likes them" is a pretty accurate take, they're (or at least their political et al positions) generally pretty reviled by... well, most reasonable people, even ones that are otherwise fairly politically extreme. Sometimes their heart's kinda' in the right place but holy shit do ideological blinders come into play real, real hard.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2022, 10:30:34 am
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2022, 10:48:50 am
It's kinda like how conservatives and fascists are both right-wing, but will never work together again after WW2. Conservatives have deeply held ideals about liberty, and the fascists would inevitably use populism and fear to core out the conservative party from the inside. Again.
yup, so glad the US Republican establishment would never risk repeating that history
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 03, 2022, 10:56:37 am
It strikes me that everyone lacking a carbon copy of your beliefs is, to your mind, your ideological enemy.How dare I hate people who support genocide and totalitarianism!
And no, not really. Liberals are not ideological enemies. Socdems are not ideological enemies. Centrists are not ideological enemies. Moderate conservatives are not ideological enemies. Anarchists are not ideological enemies. And so on, and so on.
Post by: Starver on June 03, 2022, 11:53:52 am
The correct form of Marxism is those who idealize Chico, Harpo, and Groucho. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_Brothers)I'm an avowed Zeppoista, personally.
(What's that, Harpo supporters..? Sorry, I can't hear you!)
Post by: Strongpoint on June 03, 2022, 01:06:55 pm
I know people who put me firmly in the far-left camp simply because I am an atheist and\or openly oppose homophobes\racists
Post by: Starver on June 03, 2022, 01:34:18 pm
((Sorry, two jokey responses in a row from me. And my onscreen keyboard hides "/” in an extended-punctuation click-layer, whilst the "\" is just a long-press off the alphanumeric layout. For no obvious, or obviously reconfigurable, reason...))
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2022, 02:25:38 pm
-Probably all those poor moderates that get caught in the crossfire
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2022, 03:04:18 pm
"I belong to most hated, most despised, least supported political ideology: I am a moderate."I have no strong feelings about this
-Probably all those poor moderates that get caught in the crossfire
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2022, 03:22:29 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2022, 03:38:40 pm
You all saw this coming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-bCIA_vyVc)"I belong to most hated, most despised, least supported political ideology: I am a moderate."I have no strong feelings about this
-Probably all those poor moderates that get caught in the crossfire
Post by: muldrake on June 03, 2022, 04:47:05 pm
It strikes me that everyone lacking a carbon copy of your beliefs is, to your mind, your ideological enemy.At least on Twitter, this malignant form of ideological warfare is almost mandated by the 140 character limit. Quite literally, in the McLuhan-esque sense, the medium is the message.
In a longer format, nuance could be afforded. The 140 character thing favors "zingers" and other zero content non-communication over dialogue.
Then there's the even worse practice some have of treating it as a personal blog and writing 100+ long "threads" that are completely incomprehensible to anyone of a normal mentality. Yes, when I see [1/162] it really makes me want to start out on that brutal slog.
It would be absurd to blame Twitter entirely for this degeneration of public discourse, but it's both a symptom and a cause of more than a fair amount of it.
tl;dr I hate Twitter and if that jerkass Musk crashes it with no survivors I won't care in the least.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 03, 2022, 11:12:22 pm
I will die on the hill that left\right labels are silly for everyday use, especially when we talk about views of individuals and not about parties\movementsJust because some people misuse labels, doesn't mean labels are useless.
I know people who put me firmly in the far-left camp simply because I am an atheist and\or openly oppose homophobes\racists
I said I don't even post on Twitter. I just hate those people.It strikes me that everyone lacking a carbon copy of your beliefs is, to your mind, your ideological enemy.At least on Twitter, this malignant form of ideological warfare is almost mandated by the 140 character limit. Quite literally, in the McLuhan-esque sense, the medium is the message.
In a longer format, nuance could be afforded. The 140 character thing favors "zingers" and other zero content non-communication over dialogue.
Then there's the even worse practice some have of treating it as a personal blog and writing 100+ long "threads" that are completely incomprehensible to anyone of a normal mentality. Yes, when I see [1/162] it really makes me want to start out on that brutal slog.
It would be absurd to blame Twitter entirely for this degeneration of public discourse, but it's both a symptom and a cause of more than a fair amount of it.
tl;dr I hate Twitter and if that jerkass Musk crashes it with no survivors I won't care in the least.
I hate it when people expect me to tolerate the far-right. I don't consider them worthy of rational debate, only mockery and, if possible, emotional abuse.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2022, 11:53:24 pm
They're just so bad they need to be suppressed.
Really, the question is at what point does that occur.
Post by: Frumple on June 04, 2022, 12:06:37 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 04, 2022, 12:31:02 am
And he's mostly coasted ever since.
Post by: King Zultan on June 04, 2022, 02:10:16 am
I also believe Th4DwArfY1's statement is true as you said I was a bad person because I just ignored people that said that kind of thing and I didn't see any point in making people like that suffer or die.It strikes me that everyone lacking a carbon copy of your beliefs is, to your mind, your ideological enemy.How dare I hate people who support genocide and totalitarianism!
Also why have we come back to this discussion I thought it was done and over with.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 04, 2022, 03:44:07 am
I don't hate you, nor do I consider you an enemy. You have bad beliefs, but I don't want to see you punished for it because they are not bad enough.I also believe Th4DwArfY1's statement is true as you said I was a bad person because I just ignored people that said that kind of thing and I didn't see any point in making people like that suffer or die.It strikes me that everyone lacking a carbon copy of your beliefs is, to your mind, your ideological enemy.How dare I hate people who support genocide and totalitarianism!
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 04, 2022, 07:22:27 am
Post by: Starver on June 04, 2022, 07:43:16 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 04, 2022, 08:21:36 am
How about if one's politics is to be economically cool but socially shitty?
No not like that. Why can't we just put all the fascists and bigots into the shitty category, rest to cool?
Post by: anewaname on June 04, 2022, 12:03:11 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 04, 2022, 02:34:42 pm
Because the shitty category is already full of politicians?
The Shitty Ones have inflitrated our goverments, you say?
Post by: muldrake on June 04, 2022, 02:45:20 pm
I hate it when people expect me to tolerate the far-right. I don't consider them worthy of rational debate, only mockery and, if possible, emotional abuse.I don't have to tolerate anyone though. As early as Usenet, I could simply filter out any content I didn't like with regex, if I wanted to get that agitated about content I didn't like. Or sort it with scorefiles so the stuff I liked would instantly float to the top while stuff I didn't was down in the cesspool that I generally ignored.
Somehow, this kind of functionality has nearly disappeared from any online forum. Technology has gotten worse in the 30 years since I could just instantly find what I wanted to find on the Internet and ignore morons.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 04, 2022, 10:30:18 pm
I could have witnessed the (twilight years of) Usenet if my family had internet when I was young.I hate it when people expect me to tolerate the far-right. I don't consider them worthy of rational debate, only mockery and, if possible, emotional abuse.I don't have to tolerate anyone though. As early as Usenet, I could simply filter out any content I didn't like with regex, if I wanted to get that agitated about content I didn't like. Or sort it with scorefiles so the stuff I liked would instantly float to the top while stuff I didn't was down in the cesspool that I generally ignored.
Somehow, this kind of functionality has nearly disappeared from any online forum. Technology has gotten worse in the 30 years since I could just instantly find what I wanted to find on the Internet and ignore morons.
But yeah, that's a downside of everything being more interconnected.
Post by: King Zultan on June 05, 2022, 02:11:56 am
I don't hate you, nor do I consider you an enemy. You have bad beliefs, but I don't want to see you punished for it because they are not bad enough.Well that's good, but what would make it bad enough?
I've always found this ''left and right'' stuff confusing. Like, what do they even mean? Can't we just classify people as ''cool and shitty''?Just shove them all into the shitty category and you'll be right most of the time.
Post by: muldrake on June 05, 2022, 02:50:34 pm
Well that's good, but what would make it bad enough?Some sets of beliefs simply could not lead to a positive outcome if carried into action. I do think though that a lot more potential terrorists get caught when allowed to run their mouth and reveal their intentions in advance. And in many cases, the speech itself might be illegal, such as true threats or incitement to imminent lawless action. Even when they aren't saying outright illegal things, they often give away that they're probably an unstable person to be given a broad berth if possible.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 05, 2022, 11:17:42 pm
Being an actual bigot. You don't seem to be.I don't hate you, nor do I consider you an enemy. You have bad beliefs, but I don't want to see you punished for it because they are not bad enough.Well that's good, but what would make it bad enough?
Post by: King Zultan on June 06, 2022, 02:29:36 am
I don't think I am at least I wasn't last time I checked.Being an actual bigot. You don't seem to be.I don't hate you, nor do I consider you an enemy. You have bad beliefs, but I don't want to see you punished for it because they are not bad enough.Well that's good, but what would make it bad enough?
Also any news on that whole twitter thing with that Elon guy?
Post by: Cathar on June 06, 2022, 03:28:31 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 06, 2022, 03:51:51 am
No more information since he invented the concept of putting deals "on hold". NYpost is the only newspaper to still cover that trainwreck and without new solid information.It is hardly a new concept. Hollywood has been doing it for decades.
I guess it was all a hoax after all, otherwise we'd see Twitter's spokespeople being far more vocal.
Post by: Cathar on June 06, 2022, 04:35:02 am
Post by: KittyTac on June 06, 2022, 07:06:26 am
Post by: Cathar on June 06, 2022, 08:17:26 am
Elon would be very good at playing Jester in Mafia.He's a natural at being a clown.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 06, 2022, 08:40:20 am
Elon would be very good at playing Jester in Mafia.He's a natural at being a clown.
This clown made billions... Mostly by selling hype to naive people, manipulating stock markets, getting access to taxpayers' money... but he made billions.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 06, 2022, 08:43:46 am
I have no idea if that's true at all, but I'm grateful my dad isn't into crypto or Musk's cons.
Post by: Cathar on June 06, 2022, 09:09:53 am
This clown made billions... Mostly by selling hype to naive people, manipulating stock markets, getting access to taxpayers' money... but he made billions.
He actually inherited most of his wealth made in south africa using democratic and human means I'm sure, and the rest is a lesson to be learnt about electing officials who read the paper before signing grants, but you are right, he also cons people (HeY gUys WaNt To bUy DoGe CoIns). None of his businesses are returning profits.
Edit : As for his wealth, from what I grasped, it's mostly paper wealth. The stocks of his companies do not return dividends and I'm not even sure they grant meaningful voting rights, meaning they only have a speculative value. So yeah. Extremely volatile and only valuable as long as you find someone willing to buy for higher, expecting to sell it for higher. The day bidders stop coming at the door, the value is wiped clean. You're better off investing in tulips.
I have no idea if that's true at all, but I'm grateful my dad isn't into crypto or Musk's cons.
Imho you're overestimating the man. He's just crossing fingers that Twitter let him off the hook at this point in time. He thought it was a funny joke, and got pushed into doing something dumb and now he's waking up and is praying for things to fix themselves. He's the James Cameron of the tech industry.
Post by: heydude6 on June 06, 2022, 11:39:23 am
My dad is convinced that Musk made money off the debacle by, let me see if I remember... Using a fixed amount of Tesla stock as collateral, and Tesla plummeted on the news, so he paid a much lower fine than he should have? Presumably gaining money by selling stock beforehand like he always does, the scum.
I have no idea if that's true at all, but I'm grateful my dad isn't into crypto or Musk's cons.
Musk made money off of the twitter deal because it gave him an excuse to liquidate 8.5 billion dollars worth of overvalued Tesla stock while it was near its peak price. Even if he pays the billion dollar quitter's fee, he's still making a 7.5 bill profit assuming he doesn't buy it back when the price crashes.
The only way Musk can lose now is if Twitter forces Musk to buy it against his will. There are indeed mechanisms in place to make that happen. We'll have to wait to see if they will come in play
Post by: EuchreJack on June 06, 2022, 09:44:51 pm
Post by: KittyTac on June 06, 2022, 10:48:58 pm
Post by: King Zultan on June 07, 2022, 02:22:09 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 07, 2022, 03:44:08 am
From what I can gather Musk is a loud mouth that makes over priced cars and rockets.
And absolutely awful public transit. Can't forget that.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 07, 2022, 03:51:59 am
From what I can gather Musk is a loud mouth that makes over priced cars and rockets.
And absolutely awful public transit. Can't forget that.
And a lot of fancy computer graphics about the colonization of Mars!
Post by: Cathar on June 07, 2022, 05:13:34 am
News (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/06/technology/elon-musk-twitter.html)
Yeah, I just saw that. I really, really hope Twitter's council does its feduciary duty and makes Musk eat every single letter of the contract he already signed. Man if he's not forced to buy/ pay a heavy back off fine at this point, I'd be very upset
And by very upset, I mean slightly disapointed. Also there is no agreed upon quitter fee in his contract. Backing off is not allowed in the terms he agreed, nor is the "hold" he invented.
Edit : Also from what I grasped, he took a massive loan with his telsa stock as collateral. Whatever happens now is a loss even if by miracle he can escape the deal and not be pursued. This is not 4D chess. This is a man taking his financial decision when drunk and high.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 07, 2022, 05:27:18 am
Edit : Also from what I grasped, he took a massive loan with his telsa stock as collateral. Whatever happens now is a loss even if by miracle he can escape the deal and not be pursued. This is not 4D chess. This is a man taking his financial decision when drunk and high.The price offered was $54.20 because dude weed lmao 420
The guy has become detached from consequence because his money has hitherto allowed him to do anything and disregard everything. It is sad but true that even the best case scenario, he is burned and twitter is burned, would still result in him walking away as one of the richest mans
Post by: Starver on June 07, 2022, 05:36:54 am
Post by: anewaname on June 07, 2022, 05:54:39 am
How many large cities have constant smog clouds? It there a better way to improve air quality besides reducing hydrocarbon emissions? Why haven't any of the existing auto-manufacturers produced large volumes of EVs before Tesla did, despite years of "ongoing EV development"? How many existing auto-manufacturers lied or fabricated emission results for their new vehicles?
If Musk allowed voter rights and/or dividends, electric vehicle deployment would been smothered for another 20 years as Tesla was undermined and then absorbed into the "development and delay of electric vehicles" departments of other auto manufacturers.
If you want safe dividends, invest in T-bills. Don't imply that Musk should allow others to buy into control over his businesses, because Tesla's competitors are neck-deep in the cause and cover-up of global-warming, and his competitors are backed by oil merchants.
Twitter...
Their final Q1 earnings release stated less than 5% bots and Musk is saying "show me how you arrived at that number"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cathar on June 07, 2022, 08:31:36 am
At no point anyone is backing traditional manufacturers. Cars are a tech on a fast track toward obsolescence that are happily replaced by public transport and good urban planning. I do not own a car and haven't stepped into one for 2.5 years, and I live in a small town. If we are to adapt the whole urban infrastructure anyway (as would require a mass adoption of those large toy cars) we are better off with an intelligent combinaison of local businesses accessible by foot, public transport, distant work, home delivery systems, bike lanes and sidewalks instead. I'm fine with electric cars never seing mass adoption.
And just so we're clear : my main point is not "electric cars are bad". Tesla's a firm whose function is to create paper billionaires by overpricing a stock without dividends, who happens to produce big toy cars on the side. My problem is with Telsa being a dumb money trap, before it is even a car manufacturer.
Addendum : not producing dividends is a big deal. It means that the stock only has speculative value. The day people stop believing it has value, it is wiped clean. The money vanishes, the stock becomes absolutely worthless, which is probably why investors try to keep inflating the bubble. It is a the shitcoin of stock ; you don't want to be holding the bag when it burst.
About Twitter :
There was a point where you can ask question, and that time is before you sign the contract. It's too late to discuss the terms and numbers after you agreed to them, I'm afraid. Yeah, reading is hard but it was required and now it's too late. Twitter lawyers do not answers his calls because they don't have jack to tell him, and are now waiting for him to pony up as he said he would.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 07, 2022, 08:47:58 am
At no point anyone is backing traditional manufacturers. Cars are a tech on a fast track toward obsolescence that are happily replaced by public transport and good urban planning. I do not own a car and haven't stepped into one for 2.5 years, and I live in a small town.Yeah, but in Europe. You can't get rid of cars in the US without completely revamping urban design of 99%* of population centres. They'll be stuck with cars as the main mode of transportation for decades longer than other parts of the world.
*source disclaimer: my arse
Post by: Cathar on June 07, 2022, 08:59:25 am
I know informed agents using their own money in furtherance of their own interests may sound like socialism at first, but when you think about it, it's actually Adam Smith's definition of capitalism
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 07, 2022, 09:22:50 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 07, 2022, 09:26:36 am
Yes but, hear me out : if your taxpayer dollars stop fundings the weed stupor induced ideas of rich idiots, they can - and follow me there - be used to renovate and modernize US urban infrastructure.
I know informed agents using their own money in furtherance of their own interests may sound like socialism at first, but when you think about it, it's actually Adam Smith's definition of capitalism
Uh, no.
The US is like China when it comes to infrastructure.
We just don't have it.
Our towns and communities are too spread out for anything more than a bus system on roads. There are limited rail options.
There are however two technologies that will put the gasoline person driven vehicle out of business, and that is in fact the AI driven electric car.
And it will be due to Government reasons.
In New York, there is already proposed legislation from the Democratics to outlaw gasoline-powered cars. I imagine the gasoline powered car has 20 years tops in my state. More likely 10 years, but gasoline will probably get some extra time due to Hybrids.
As for AI, just think of Air Bags and Seat Belts. Once an AI can drive a car safer than the average driver, the human driver's days are numbered. I'll probably live long enough to see the end of human-controlled cars, but that technology is still elusive.
As for Elon & Tesla...HA HA HA.
You don't invest in the FIRST guy.
All this will only happen when the major automakers are geared up for it. Tesla's junk is too expensive: They're the Porsches of the Electric cars. It's the Honda Electric cars that will define the future.
Post by: Cathar on June 07, 2022, 10:04:00 am
Honestly I'm just waiting for the Hindenburg moment, when a lithium battery will fail in that sewer tunnel they dug under las vegas.
I think it's called the American Dream.
It only makes sense in a country where freedom of speech is unironically championned by union busters, which would be funny if it wasn't tragic.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 07, 2022, 11:52:40 am
Quote
As for AI, just think of Air Bags and Seat Belts. Once an AI can drive a car safer than the average driver
Safer than an average driver won't be enough. No car manufacturer will want to play liabilities for AI errors. And with slightly safer than an average driver there will be A LOT of deaths, injuries, and damaged property caused by AI errors.
____________________
BTW, I laughed so hard when Musk promised "thousands of fully autonomous robotaxis next year." or something like that.
Post by: Cathar on June 07, 2022, 12:26:04 pm
Post by: King Zultan on June 08, 2022, 03:12:31 am
And I don't really see wide spread electric car ownership within the next 30 or so years do to the massive cost of the things and the whole need to be recharged for 4-6 hours thing, also because of a study I saw a few years ago that said that some countries such as the US and UK were just barely producing enough electricity to power the things that were there at the time, so adding loads of vehicles powered by electricity would make the problem worse do to all the added load on the infrastructure.
Has anything Musk promised actually happened?
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2022, 03:19:54 am
I don't see myself ever not owning a car since I live about 30 minutes from town and want noting to do with town life.
And I don't really see wide spread electric car ownership within the next 30 or so years do to the massive cost of the things and the whole need to be recharged for 4-6 hours thing, also because of a study I saw a few years ago that said that some countries such as the US and UK were just barely producing enough electricity to power the things that were there at the time, so adding loads of vehicles powered by electricity would make the problem worse do to all the added load on the infrastructure.
Has anything Musk promised actually happened?
His
As for Electric Cars, all it takes an incredibly stupid government to say "Gas is Illegal". It's closer than any of us realize.
Governments don't have to know how to implement things: They just say DO THIS SHIT, and stumble around the consequences.
And it's gotten worse, I think. Then again, I wasn't around 100 years ago, so maybe its just my perception.
Post by: Starver on June 08, 2022, 05:22:16 am
As for Electric Cars, all it takes an incredibly stupid government to say "Gas is Illegal". It's closer than any of us realize.UK policy (if that's any guarantee) is to stop all new pure-fuel vehicle sales by 2030 and phase out hybrid even by 2035.
Governments don't have to know how to implement things: They just say DO THIS SHIT, and stumble around the consequences.
Several caveats there, from "but of course the schedule will slip, due to 'unforeseen issues'" to "what if going all-electric is shown to be bad, the way that the push for diesels was a decade or so ago".
I don't think the energy issue need be a problem. Push for every electricity-generation option going (resubsidise rooftop solar, especially large factories, etc) plus energy storage (to smooth things out, if wind, tide, sun all are at a minimum and the other 'on demands' need ramping up) and do more for household efficiencies than the last few lackluster attempts at it. But, knowing governments, it will be badly handled and so it might be touch-and-go whether that becomes a future problem.
Post by: Cathar on June 08, 2022, 09:05:25 am
Has anything Musk promised actually happened?
As far as I know, his investment in Paypal is the only of his ploys rendering society a service of any kind, Tesla doesn't count. Feel free to correct me, but other than Paypal, which with all its flaws and its unfair transaction prices, is at least of some use to the public, nothing ever really worked.
Edit : before anyone mentions Starlink, if we never go to visit the actual stars, it will be because of idiotic ventures like this one, ending up clogging the lower orbit with space junk we cannot remove.
HisSpace DongsRockets mostly work.
As far as I know, most of them explode in a very non environmentally friendly burst of fuel flames in the natural reserve around Boca Chica, which harbours a collection of endengered species. What history will remember of his rockets, is Texan government expropriating villagers at gunpoint to make way for a private venture ending up in exterminating rare species of cats and turtles.
Wild life preservations societies and expropriated residents are currently organizing to end that joke, which to them is of little comedy value.
Quote
He's infected our minds so we can't stop talking about him.
He has a good communication team, that's for sure. Saturation of the public space is the essence of propaganda.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 08, 2022, 10:20:41 am
Post by: Cathar on June 08, 2022, 10:28:03 am
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I'll ask for sources on that, especially since Elon was critiqued especially for promoting racist agit-prop with his array.
AFAIK Ukrainians want weapons, not mass medias.
Edit : Ukrainians don't communicate via starlink when they are on the frontline, do they ? Russians were notorious for communicating with bad opsec at the beggining of the war and it contributed to the failure of their their blitz toward Kiev
Post by: Strongpoint on June 08, 2022, 11:05:04 am
Quote
Ukrainians don't communicate via starlink when they are on the frontline, do they ? Russians were notorious for communicating with bad opsec at the beggining of the war and it contributed to the failure of their their blitz toward Kiev
Sometimes you need your communications to work and don't care much if the source can be detected. And Starlinks works as long as you have a generator\battery to power it. It is also surprisingly hard to jam. For example, it is how surrounded defenders of Mariupol were able to send videos outside.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2022, 03:41:21 pm
Starlinks are immensely useful on Ukrainian frontlines but I really doubt the practicality of those in civilian use and yes, space junk is a problem.
Actually, this is the Number 1 reason to invest in Musk.
He's build a monopoly in the Space Trade through Starlink and Space Junk. You ain't getting into space without Musk's approval.
This is also the Number 1 reason NOT to invest in Musk. Governments don't like that sort of thing, so he'll eventually get smacked down to size.
Post by: taat on June 08, 2022, 06:47:31 pm
Post by: muldrake on June 08, 2022, 08:04:29 pm
Starlinks are immensely useful on Ukrainian frontlines but I really doubt the practicality of those in civilian use and yes, space junk is a problem.Starlinks are in a low earth orbit so they automatically fall out of orbit after a time, and are not large enough to pose any risk of hitting the ground. I'm not sure whether they cause more terrestrial pollution to launch or to self-decommission.
Post by: King Zultan on June 09, 2022, 03:04:24 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 09, 2022, 08:36:42 am
So we've found the one thing Musk has done that wasn't complete shit, way to go team!And of course, it's Flying Penises.
Post by: King Zultan on June 10, 2022, 01:28:01 am
And of course, it's Flying Penises.It all makes since now he needed to make dickships so he could one day return to Dickplanet!
Post by: Duuvian on June 19, 2022, 09:44:41 am
I don't see myself ever not owning a car since I live about 30 minutes from town and want noting to do with town life.
And I don't really see wide spread electric car ownership within the next 30 or so years do to the massive cost of the things
https://www.businessinsider.com/gm-hong-guang-mini-ev-tesla-china-covertible-electric-car-2021-4?op=1
I read about it in another article a few months ago that said it's moddable with kits of some sort that can turn it into things like a food truck or some such if I remember correctly, though I may be misremembering.
I wonder if the US's $7500 electric vehicle tax rebate applies to those.
This article says the rebate might apply if they have mustered a Certificate of Conformity (for US road regulations I assume), though this second article is on a different model (and more expensive) by a different manufacturer.
https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/57683/chinese-electric-car-costing-6-000-approved-for-sale-in-the-u-s/
I think an individual can also import them if they have the vehicle inspected before shipping and follow that whole process that can be found on a .gov website somewhere. There are companies that specialize in that and shipping I think, though I've never inquired so I don't know how much it costs or how it works; I assume pickup would be in California. I also don't know if there are compatibility issues such as the charger. Basically I don't know how it works at all, but I was like "Ooooh a $6000 electric"
Post by: King Zultan on June 20, 2022, 02:36:48 am
Post by: Cathar on July 12, 2022, 04:35:45 am
Full disclosure : I said I never heard Ukrainian press mention Starlink before... well I have now. Get this : it has been approved for civilian purposes (so no military application at all). It will blast russian propaganda. It can only been used near proprietary antennas ( we will use it to the front line guys :') ), and Denis Davidov cannot use it and he lives in Kiev. It offers litterally zero benefit compared to normal internet.
Post by: Starver on July 12, 2022, 07:09:09 am
Space junk travels at supersonic speeds...not to detract from your point, but... That's a meaningless descriptor, as sound doesn't really travel at any speed (and much, much slower in the bits that have fringes of rarified exosphere/whatever) and does not do it justice. In LEO, where the Starlinks are, satellites travel at a velocity that, in atmosphere, would be roughly twice that considered hypersonic in an atmospheric projectile.
And there are certainly problems from space-junk. Partly for this reason, the orbits chosen for Starlink constellations are quite low (less line-of-sight coverage, more additional satellites needed, but deorbitting times <5 years[1]) compared to those of Iridium (66ish active satellites providing near total coverage, but idealised decay time could be[2] 10s of thousands of years, well beyond their useful life in other regards if not sent into decaying/outer-graveyard orbits while still capable of being so controlled).
Most interesting, as comparison, is the Iridium that was hit by the (defunkt) Kosmos in 2009 at hypervelocity closing speeds and made one of the few well-tracked debris fields (and I think the most significant of all the purely accidental ones). The combined mass of initial debris was ~1.5tonnes, well above the ISS. The scattering effect meant the ISS was prepared for debris in the vicinity (most notably in 2012), but such fragments of the debris was then more likely to deorbit itself naturally... I'm sure there's a good assessment of how much is still in a stable orbit ('high', circular, LEO), how much is just eccentric enough (initially up or down) to be troublesome but not yet retarded into re-entry at closest approach, what proportion has succumbed to the upper atmosphere after various passes.
Starlinks are 350kg (or less), each, not expected to last much more than those 5 years from the last self-boost[3] and are placed closer to the ISS (a future shell of "VLEO" Starlinks would be well below it) but in an orbit where comparatively little consistent traffic criss-crosses the shell apart from the many other Starlinks, with current tracking stipulations meaning that long-range forecasts of possible collisions are likely to provoke whichever of the sats can still be adjusted (if not both) to be so done well ahead of time. By no means without danger[4], but much shorter-term, making the instantaneous hazards (spread/deprecated over time, divided by mass, not overly multiplied by the number of responsible parties, but ...yes... multiplied by relative constellation sizes) possibly somewhat lower, without necessarily being too generous in that assessment.
Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to clarify on "supersonic", and I seemed to get sucked into the details. Many
[1] Depending on space/Earth weather fluctuations, some have suggested increased interactions with the atmosphere could deorbit more suddenly than expected for those not yet beyond their midlife when they start to encounter far less tenuous exosphere at their current part-decayed altitude, if their Krypton-based boosters/station-keepers fail. It's a bit of a crapshoot, which Musk clearly intends to ride by just firing more replacements back up to ~350 miles.
[2] Any number of failed-in-service Iridiums didn't take this long to deorbit, and others are 'obligingly' decaying quite nicely, thank you very much, so I'm quoting a clear top-end estimate here. Interestingly a "currently decaying" Iridium (or maybe a few of them, from the same batch) is helping with communications at the South Pole, last I heard. Being a polar-orbitting swarm, the coverage is limited but at least fairly usable, unlike the "mesh toroid" of the Starlink constellation, that isn't really capable of servicing the poles because of the local horizon and limits to range. But this is(/these are) in a decaying orbit, presumably no station-keeping or de-orbitting fuel left, but has been usefully providing communications for quite a while longer than you'd expect a Starlink to stay up there in similarly adjusted circumstances.
[3] Or the first one. I understand they're sent to <350 miles at first, spat out of the "bus" to spread them out a bit and then tested. Only those that function well are then commanded up to the 350ish-mile slots that time and trajectory best suites them. Those that failed immediately after de-bussing (or even failed to de-bus) are going to decay much earlier, with either active or passive deorbitting.
[4] And I'm sure there's plenty of room to imagine Musk going all actively Bond Villain and actively threatening/creating a Kesler-shell upon one touch of a button he handily keeps in his pocket, for some suitably Hollywood reason that he has been leading up to all this time, if only we had known his true motives..!
Post by: Cathar on July 12, 2022, 07:35:29 am
It is clear that I am not an expert in that field, and even if it doesn't clog up the orbit with debris, my point was Starlink is a useless venture. It needs a massive ground receptor to function and can service only a very limited area. It is utterly useless in situations where usual internet cannot function. Contrary to what I read in this thread, its ground infrastructure can be shutdown anytime by the government lending its land to it (or in the case of Ukraine, by an artillery shot), and the whole system serves only its primary function of internet attention whoring.
Like the previous debacle who ended up by calling a national hero a pedophile because he would not wait for Musk to ship its custom submarine to save stranded kids, it is superfluous /redundant tech.
As for supersonic being a meaningless descriptor, I was of course using the term colloquially (as in, over 340m/s), altho that whole post is extremely interesting.
Post by: Starver on July 12, 2022, 09:07:32 am
I disagree about Starlink being useless in the absence of 'standard' internet. An artilliary shell could take out an installation[1], but it can take out an exchange or a permanent cable link (probably found on a map, official/unofficial/purloined) much more easily/deliberately. With an unknown number of unknown-placed Starlink receivers (which can be moved, possibly without the rest-of-world subscriber-limitations imposed, or at least by further) that can be placed at the most tactically obscure spot within 100-150ft of the antenna (if they haven't supplied even longer cables) and then fed through any otherwise possible amount of patch cable and/or routers (main concerns being the power needs) to allow any C&C base, government emergency HQ, surveillance/lookout hideaway or 'even' a school-in-a-farmyard-basement as good an uninteruptable internet connection as they could hope for, and far better than the remains of the peacetime infrastructure (landline or ~4G...) that is probably degraded. By accident or design, as part of an attack or as a security/scorched-earth defensive measure.
I think it's actually a useful gesture. How it can be/is being used (opsec to prevent over-run units being looted intact?) I don't know. Perhaps more use is made of the propoganda of having them available, rather than trying to run the war (or what remains of the peace) through them to any significant amount. But far from utterly useless. Even with many possible caveats.
(If Russia were so threatened by it as to try ASAT countermeasures... That's be another thing entirely. If anything, it'd validate Starlink way above what I think its worth actually is, and violently annoy every other space-facing concern (including most nations) just for the sheer over-reach. It'd be maybe just a notch below using nukes to significantly attack in this way, or even part of it.)
I agree entirely about Elon being a total tool (<- meant to type "fool", but this too) insofar as his other stunts/spats like the whole submarine/"paedo-guy" thing. I'd generously consider the offer of the sub to be well-meaning (with a clear sideline in self-publicising), but rather than gracefully learn how it wasn't really a suitable solution, he then took umbrage at the rejection and publically engaged his mouth(/fingers) without first thinking. Perhaps a sign of how he has become a go-getter, and the risks arising from being compulsive/tenatious about certain goals, even as he's shown how it can get him into the position of being able to offer up an entire constellation of communications satellites whenever he feels like it.
Like many a powerful/influential figure, he aint no angel of perfection. I think there's worse out there, but definite character flaws/inverted utility in his psyche. Future history will tell where he/Bezos/etc lies on the scale of the pre-existing ultrarich. Carnegie, Gates, Wayne, Buffet, Maxwell, Zhang, Manso Musa, etc ( <- examples only: not in any order of philanthropy, not all yet/fully transparent to history, not all non-fictional)...
(I always go for 330m/s in back-of-the-envelope calculations, or even just ⅓km/s, because rarely is it 1 atmosphere and 20°C in the practical example and I might as well accept an easier to calculate-with ballpark figure until I have reason to know otherwise with any certainty. ;) May also be a legacy of the frequently cited 1100ft/s (itself slightly rounded) of premetrication, depending upon how someone fudged the 'simple' conversion.)
So, yeah. Twitter. Don't mess with it kids. Or billionaires. (Kids <-> Bilionaires, Kids <-> Twitter and Billionaires <-> Twitter. Every whichway combination, but for many different reasons.)
[1] I'd be more worried if Russia converted radar-homing missiles/ELINT surveillance to specifically find Starlink dish frequencies, though, if it seemed like a cost worth paying to do so. Mitigated perhaps by the highly-steered 'beam' of communications traffic that might be difficult to spot whilst not in conjunction with ground-box and any satellite(s) it is actively talking to.
Post by: Cathar on July 12, 2022, 09:38:56 am
Quote
But far from utterly useless. Even with many possible caveats.
Maybe you are seeing things differently than I do, but from my point of view, the tech is completely redundant.
1°) For military use, it has not been approved. It will not help soldiers.
2°) The city it has been deployed in are already serviced with landline internet, and the coverage it is providing is abysmally small, centered around its stationary receptors.
3°) It provides absolutely no security against anything that can threaten landline internet
3° a) Power goes out, Starlink goes out
3° b) Government says no starlink, starlink goes out
3° c) Jamming trucks go near town, Starlink goes out (but landline stays up, ironically)
4°) It creates additional security concerns about signal interception.
What functions does it serves, I have no idea.
My opinion on the other ultra rich...I don't have any really. Buffet makes me laugh, and as for Bezos, he has the basic decency not to pretend to be a philanthropist while he does union busts, and he is only as powerful as the governments allow him to be, so I appreciate him for being a living argument for a strong European Union.
Edit : As I look around, I notice that, indeed, space junk is still an ongoing concern about Starlink (I'm not the only one to come to that conclusion, I thought I was going mad). Band monopoly and sky pollution are two other concerns that are ongoing.
Edit 2 : Also just so we're clear : my gripe is not with the mega rich. I really don't look at the plate of others and short of the red army marching on Paris, I will not live to see socialism take effect in my country. I have come to terms with that many many years ago.
More humbly, what I'm doing is looking at an evil clown getting a deserved 1 billion dollar pimp slap accross the face and waiting to see if he'll get that 44 billion dollar "and don't come back" beat up on top of it.
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 12, 2022, 11:04:21 am
Post by: Starver on July 12, 2022, 11:08:51 am
#3a: Local generation sufficient, no need to worry about an exchange down the road/across a front-line being blacked-out or plugs pulled.
#3c: Not sure, covered that with frequency-targetting weaponry/etc, not sure blanket jamming works much on directed communication. (Targetted spade-blades can hit a landline, and it stays down even as you redeploy the spades elsewhere.)
#4: Downlink is probably interceptable (but not understandable), but uplink should still be on a tight-beam. With sufficiently spoof-proofed mutual encryption negotiation (if not designed in, whythehellnot? ...if only for commercial reasons...) all that 'enemy interception' ought to discover is that someone is being talked to somewhere within a given footprint/coverage area[1]. Possibly.
I'm not saying that they are negligable as space-junk, BTW, just roughly enumerating the mitigating factors. (Ditto with astronomical pollution, though I believe an Iridium-flare-like effect has been considered and built into their design to be counteracted. e.g. angling the solar array to reduce any solar reflection down to Earth[2].) Probably could be better (in both regards), but it seems that the considerations have been... considered. And at least some deployment options may be in relation to what that revealed as potential issues.
The absolute position is LANTAOAA, and also it was never my intention to become an apologist, just that it's more of a Curate's Egg than a total waste of (outer-)space. I fear for an overcrowding of space-junk (and subsequent debris), but I'm not quite as concerned about Musk's basic plans as other eventualities... Not enough to invalidate the (probably self-promoting) gifting of user-units to Ukraine in case they find them useful. (And if he hadn't done this, I'm sure the immediate future would have had nearly an identical number of new Starlinks deployed up there, whatever the true problem with that.)
I think Musk is a dick, who has no need for me to pull my punches on that score. One who has floated to the top by luck, opportunity and a large amount of good judgements where it actually matters, but the 15-dimensional chess strategy behind squandering luck and opportunity over (relatively minor) bad judgements eludes me. Whether it's a Grand Plan or Moments Of Madness, the optics from down here in the deep grass are confusing, and yet the eagle soars. For now.
(PPE: And I see an Edit2 now. Was replying only with the first Edit in mind. But I think my last paragraph answers enough of that without adding more than this simple cover-note to say I've seen it.)
[1] Depends upon how rigorously pseudo-encoded the downlink data is. Done badly you might be able to count the number of individuals using from within an area (maybe the 15²miles of the most restrictive 'roaming') or time the handovers between different satellites to narrow down where the "best centre" might be for any link that can be individually identified across three or four such changeovers, if you had the desire and means to use a "polyamorous listening mode" to log extended signals and read between the lines. But if I were designing the system, I'd have made sure a periodic polymorphic handshake (and possibly even pumping dummy-data into gaps and fringes) would safeguard user privacy at this level (before even considering milspec safeguards), as well as thoroughly renegotiated sky-to-ground encryption of packet contents and basic headers. There'd be no protocol equivalent of "Cheers, user ABC123, currently located at X.xxx°N Y.yyg°E, for the current upload of the streaming file LiveViewOfEnemyDeployments.asf" in anything like open broadcast.
[2] Initially, they're deployed flat-to-Earth ('open book'), which seem to make the initial just-deoyed crowd of sibling launchees noticable, but then in long-term operation it's changed to vertically up ('shark's fin') in the best compromise rotation for particle avoidance and sun-soaking, and then the most likely surface to reflect down is the small face on the opposite side (which may have been painted/anodised/textured more dull than the bare casing would be) and apparently this lowers any 'flare' potential.
Post by: King Zultan on July 13, 2022, 01:54:57 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2022, 07:26:36 am
Post by: heydude6 on July 13, 2022, 01:24:29 pm
Post by: TD1 on July 13, 2022, 04:23:53 pm
That one had a lasting impact on human culture, introducing new phrases and concepts. Notably: 'mega-pint.' It also briefly featured Elon.
I fail to see what new spice he could bring now.
Post by: Starver on July 13, 2022, 04:31:56 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 13, 2022, 05:14:53 pm
Post by: King Zultan on July 14, 2022, 12:55:57 am
Post by: Starver on July 14, 2022, 06:11:45 am
(Should it be "pay this amount, regardless", then actually taking control even of the suboptimal platform would be like that but "...and hey... free Twitter!")
Really, I expect Musk can make it work (in his own way) without too much fuss. He's no stranger to online hubs, and if he fails after he has raised such deal-threatening concerns then it exonerates him and makes us perhaps a bit more sympathetic (to balance against any feelings of schadenfreude we might also have until the next big thing, good or bad, wipes this whole episode from our collective memories). While if he makes it (continue to) work then he becomes the saviour of mankind in that way, as well as any eggs/baskets redistrubtion he initiates through his space programme. He hasn't much to lose that he hasn't already theoretically committed to put into the pot. Perhaps.
Possibly the gameplay was never meant to be more than an advanced "Outsider Trading" venture. Perhaps it has gone horribly wrong. Or perhaps it's still going horribly right, according to plan. I'm sure he knows, himself, but I doubt we can disentangle the front from the deep thought processes grinding away in his internal gears, ratchetting up the building costs and/or benefits of this particular wheeze.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 14, 2022, 12:11:47 pm
I wonder how big a shit fit Elon will throw when he loses and has to buy Twitter?Never going to happen. By saying this, I guarantee it happens :P
Realistically, Elon will have to pay a sum of money for not buying Twitter. This might encourage him to buy it instead, probably at a lower price than currently.
Post by: Cathar on July 15, 2022, 09:09:27 am
The TL;DR is : Twitter has zero patience for Musk's antics and is going to enforce the contract with weapons in Delaware's court. The case looks open and shut, and the only way out for Musk is to beg to his knees, so the case doesn't reach the court. In the best, absolute best scenario, he will just have to soldier that 1 billion dollar face slap... but it's not going to be the best case scenario. More realistics option are :
• He tries to fight, gets crushed and has to pay full price for a company he damaged himself
• He cries and begs and will pay 10% of the buyout price to scramble out of the deal.
Twitter's board cannot proceed to sell him the company at a much lower price, because, as Elon said when he was still high, they are bound by fiduciary duty to their shareholders. They don't have a lot of wriggle room in lowering the buyout price, and franckly they look like they are out for blood anyway.
Oh and the SEC may take the occasion to come to him with long knives too.
Edit : And, silly of me, mentionning long knives and forgetting Brutus' bladeworks (https://nypost.com/2022/07/13/trump-i-could-have-made-elon-musk-drop-to-his-knees-and-beg/), without which that absolute circus could not be complete.
If you want to invest in Tesla, some stock is hitting the market soon !
Post by: King Zultan on July 16, 2022, 02:33:15 am
as Elon said when he was high,This right here is pretty much what I've thought was going on with the guy every time I hear about him.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 16, 2022, 02:50:45 am
The theory I still find convincing is that this is more stock market manipulation. His original contract isn't for a dollar amount (If I'm remembering right), it's for a certain number of Tesla stocks (the total value of which included a meme number, when he announced).
I find it reasonable that he tanked Tesla on purpose and profited off that very predictable stock movement. Shorting is a thing, as are friends an' family. The stock market is stacked. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a lucrative industry. It produces nothing. NOTHING. It's supposed to provide investment to new businesses, which is a joke.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 20, 2022, 11:07:48 am
Edit : And, silly of me, mentionning long knives and forgetting Brutus' bladeworks (https://nypost.com/2022/07/13/trump-i-could-have-made-elon-musk-drop-to-his-knees-and-beg/), without which that absolute circus could not be complete.Wow, that is probably the most honest, truthful, and accurate thing I've ever seen Trump say. Not that it's 100% accurate (LOL to that!), but you can't bite the hand that feeds you if you want more food.
Post by: Bumber on October 28, 2022, 01:10:27 pm
(Glad this gif already existed so I didn't have to make my own.)
Post by: heydude6 on October 28, 2022, 03:47:15 pm
May God help us all.
Post by: Ziusudra on October 28, 2022, 03:59:44 pm
Seems like a more appropriate reaction.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 28, 2022, 04:15:58 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on October 28, 2022, 04:18:42 pm
Post by: muldrake on October 28, 2022, 05:01:33 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on October 28, 2022, 09:27:50 pm
I will definitely use any alternative that pops up and grows big more if it's more heavily censored.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 28, 2022, 11:09:46 pm
Post by: King Zultan on October 29, 2022, 01:39:38 am
Wish there was a picture of his dumb face when he realized he had to buy the damned thing.
Post by: Starver on October 29, 2022, 04:19:58 am
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2022, 07:14:34 am
Post by: TamerVirus on October 29, 2022, 09:06:51 am
Post by: Rolan7 on October 29, 2022, 11:53:54 pm
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/687773566686855241/1035735807572590743/YouCut_20221028_190139838.mp4
Post by: Magmacube_tr on October 30, 2022, 03:42:41 am
And nothing of value was lost.
Post by: King Zultan on October 30, 2022, 04:00:32 am
I don’t need Twitter when I can get my bare minimum social interaction from here!Hey, I to get my social interaction from here.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 30, 2022, 05:55:55 am
I hope this link works - artist's conception of Musk explaining his purchase of Twitter, using his words.The only thing is I'm not sure there is any grand strategy behind this, and that this isn't the sunken cost of a tired, overworked and narrow-visioned dude weed lmao man
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/687773566686855241/1035735807572590743/YouCut_20221028_190139838.mp4
Post by: Enemy post on October 31, 2022, 05:25:15 pm
Post by: KittyTac on October 31, 2022, 09:41:36 pm
To Elon defenders, this is what happens with your free speech in place. Enjoy.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 31, 2022, 09:52:34 pm
Post by: auzewasright on November 01, 2022, 09:26:13 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 01, 2022, 09:55:30 am
Twitter went from a cesspool full of racism and awful political takes to… the same, really, but with more n-words. Anyone who thinks that Elon is gonna be the savior of the platform or that the platform was worth saving before is sorely mistaken."Worse by degrees not by type" is a pretty apt description
Post by: Quarque on November 01, 2022, 10:09:02 am
Wish there was a picture of his dumb face when he realized he had to buy the damned thing.
There you go.
(https://deadline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Elon-musk-NYT-Hulu.jpg?w=681&h=383&crop=1)
The hubris of Musk is mindblowing, but the underlying problem is more interesting. Social media run have become so influential on society as a whole that it is problematic to allow them to be controlled by private companies. The ceo of any social media platform has power on the level of a dictator, because they set the rules on what "free speech" means. How can a democracy keep their power in check?
Post by: auzewasright on November 01, 2022, 11:14:07 am
Post by: anewaname on November 01, 2022, 05:33:12 pm
Quote
Twitter's head of safety and integrity, Yoel Roth, also warned of coordinated efforts to proliferate hateful posts and said the platform was banning users involved in the trolling campaign.So, what happens if Musk is able to destroy the bot networks on twitter? Doesn't this mean the actual promoters of racism and hate speech become more exposed to social and legal persecution?
"Over the last 48 hours, we've seen a small number of accounts post a ton of Tweets that include slurs and other derogatory terms," he tweeted on Saturday evening, noting that just 300 accounts were responsible for more than 50,000 tweets using one slur.
Post by: McTraveller on November 01, 2022, 06:13:10 pm
The last piece of confirmation would be if he locks himself in a theater for an extended duration and puts his urine in jars.
Post by: Starver on November 01, 2022, 06:51:03 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 01, 2022, 10:51:14 pm
I hope this link works - artist's conception of Musk explaining his purchase of Twitter, using his words.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/687773566686855241/1035735807572590743/YouCut_20221028_190139838.mp4
That was hilarious.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 01, 2022, 11:11:57 pm
Too bad I am aware of Musk's pattern of extravagant lies when it comes to grand promises. Also the stock manipulation.
also I've only watched a little macross or whatever but I think that guy might be a baddy
so I probably shouldn't relate with the chick at the end, I assume that's bad
Post by: EuchreJack on November 01, 2022, 11:33:07 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 01, 2022, 11:47:09 pm
(Totally sharing that with my brother tomorrow, he *loves* Star Wars)
Post by: King Zultan on November 02, 2022, 03:15:35 am
Post by: Frumple on November 02, 2022, 06:58:11 am
Post by: Starver on November 02, 2022, 08:21:24 am
Good atmosphere, universal coverage, light-touch administration: "Choose any two"? If you're lucky to get both/either of those.
That said, I've not been to most of the places (or touched most of the territory covered by named regions) shown here, in 2007 (https://www.xkcd.com/256/) or in the main-map shown here, in 2010 (https://www.xkcd.com/802/), so I'm judging from afar. I don't think I'm particularly wrong, though... you could argue the specifics (say, with the likes of Wikipedia, if that truly counts), but there's probably some sociological law about this.
[1] Or BBSs, but I can't be sure they were all as globally altruistic as my chosen hangouts. And I obviously IRCed, but I was never so much a fan of live-chat, under most circumstances, even if I would happily refresh for/submit to 'asynchronous' messaging to make it nearly so!
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 02, 2022, 02:07:08 pm
I'm still of the opinion that the world is better off without social media.
Yeah everyone should just return to using forums.
Post by: McTraveller on November 02, 2022, 03:47:42 pm
Yeah everyone should just return to using forums.
Think of all the funny things that will happen on the way there!
/shameless
Post by: EuchreJack on November 02, 2022, 04:21:26 pm
I'unno, I think the more accurate statement might be "better off without for-profit social media". Lot of the problems we have with it trace back to issues involving monetization. It might be a better situation if that just... wasn't there.
I think you might have hit upon Musky's Great Business Strategy. He buys Twitter, musks around to pay less for it, then sells/leases it to the Government for twice as much as he paid. It sort of matches how he's pursued his other businesses.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 02, 2022, 04:48:10 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 02, 2022, 11:02:26 pm
Post by: King Zultan on November 03, 2022, 03:12:28 am
Yeah everyone should just return to using forums.I agree with this man, forums are superior to social media, everyone should switch to using forums as their way of talking on the internet!
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 03, 2022, 06:10:14 am
Post by: Cathar on November 03, 2022, 06:22:29 am
Now let's see if the rot propagades to Tesla's stocks.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 03, 2022, 06:25:46 am
Literally nothing has changed so far from my POV. Except now we have a dumb futurist trying to make sense of a 4 billion dollar expense he had pinned on his head after trying for months on end to wriggle out of. For now, I'm happy with that development. Good start for kharmic retribution.*44 billion. Also as a socialist futurist, fuck him and I hope he and all of his businesses burn.
Now let's see if the rot propagades to Tesla's stocks.
Post by: KittyTac on November 04, 2022, 10:03:44 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on November 04, 2022, 11:19:54 pm
Mastodon is fine, though I've not found many I want to follow yet. Edit: and as soon as I say that I get errors trying to load
Post by: King Zultan on November 05, 2022, 01:57:31 am
Post by: Eric Blank on November 05, 2022, 02:04:01 am
Yeah apparently it's a new social media app, go figure
Post by: Ziusudra on November 05, 2022, 02:28:22 am
Post by: Cathar on November 05, 2022, 05:31:04 am
I'm not leaving Twitter out of morbid curiosity and because my art gets some eyeballs there, episodically. But the elephant looks nice too.
Edit : Here we go. I'll check this out during a couple weeks and I'll see where I stay in the end.
Post by: Starver on November 05, 2022, 07:53:12 am
Maybe I'll also fail to get onto the next bandwagon as well. But I'd feel stupid not ever using something that fails almost immediately, so I'll keep my nose to the ground whilst I have my ear to the grindstone in other things.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 05, 2022, 08:24:36 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 05, 2022, 09:46:02 am
This is the online equivalent of a refugee crisis.
Yeah, it is a sight to behold. But also kinda concerning, at least for me.
At least it's not us. We are so incredibly isolated lmao.
Post by: Tiruin on November 05, 2022, 11:46:16 am
Post by: The_Explorer on November 05, 2022, 12:10:30 pm
Tbh I stopped caring. I figured Elon was gonna take it over, that was a done deal. And as predicted its just a right wing extremist hub now with some liberals and democrats not wanting to leave for whatever reason.
I ended up just staying on it though. There isn't (yet) a better alternative to find relatively "real" time data on ukraine stuff, taiwan/china stuff and a lot of other news that doesn't need to be political (find a lot of science stuff too). I hope it goes the way of facebook and myspace though.
Post by: Vector on November 05, 2022, 12:18:03 pm
I do have a Twitter account but I've never posted there and now it's looking like I maybe never will. Too bad.
Post by: Cathar on November 05, 2022, 02:02:28 pm
This is the online equivalent of a refugee crisis.The worst of it is, it is an ongoing crisis. I saw artists leaving dA for Tumblr in 2012, leaving Tumblr for Twitter in 2018, and now in 2022, they are also leaving Twitter. Don't know where they are going yet but they don't seem to want to stay.
I still don't think the aquisition of Twitter will be as brutal as that Tumblr episode, except if Musk tries the same trick as AT&T did by trying to lure investor by banning pornography. In which case Twitter will be burried in a matter of weeks. If one lesson has been learnt over the years, it's internet people can tolerate fascism, they can't tolerate being denied tiddies.
If there's to be a social media to emerge from that episode, it will not be facebook. I'll keep my eyes open.
Post by: Frumple on November 05, 2022, 02:48:48 pm
I still don't think the aquisition of Twitter will be as brutal as that Tumblr episode, except if Musk tries the same trick as AT&T did by trying to lure investor by banning pornography. In which case Twitter will be burried in a matter of weeks.Last I noticed Musk seemed to think getting pissy with the COO of the largest advertising conglomerate on the planet (MMA Global) is a good idea, on top of a pile of other stuff that's just wildly unwise, so I'unno, this might be even more brutal than the tumblr episode. Dude really seems to be trying to speedrun collapsing a major social media platform.
Post by: heydude6 on November 05, 2022, 04:54:54 pm
Post by: Cathar on November 05, 2022, 04:55:14 pm
"Don't sign a document engaging $44 billions dollar without reading it and while high, and if you do so try not to lower the value of your aquisition by denigrating it online, and if you do try to not force your counterparty to force you to pay through the justice system, and if that happen try not to blow up what remains by disabling moderation and antagonizing the advertizers" may be a very bitter pill to swallow...
Post by: King Zultan on November 06, 2022, 01:55:04 am
Post by: Great Order on November 06, 2022, 01:56:01 am
I wish there was a lesson to be learnt from that dumpsterfire...
"Don't sign a document engaging $44 billions dollar without reading it and while high, and if you do so try not to lower the value of your aquisition by denigrating it online, and if you do try to not force your counterparty to force you to pay through the justice system, and if that happen try not to blow up what remains by disabling moderation and antagonizing the advertizers" may be a very bitter pill to swallow...
"Don't be a fucking idiot" to put it simply.
Post by: Cathar on November 06, 2022, 04:26:53 am
Why not abandon that stupid twitter shit and just use this forum to post all your art?
I do :) For anything that is legal for me to post here. But I am also cognisant that the forum is roughly 2000 people coming and going on a regular basis. My favourite 2000 people, yes, but quantity is a quality in its own right in art
"Don't be a fucking idiot" to put it simply.
But this is one of the core traits of the protagonist of this anime unfortunately
Post by: King Zultan on November 06, 2022, 04:42:19 am
Post by: Robsoie on November 06, 2022, 04:44:38 am
I often read about Pixiv and Pinterest when it comes to artwork showcasing, but never use those so i don't know much about them.
Post by: Eric Blank on November 06, 2022, 05:23:15 am
What kind of art do you have that's not legal to post here?
Tiddies, probably. We're not allowed to have porn here. Or link to it.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 06, 2022, 06:18:54 am
...My favourite 2000 people, yes...
Awwwww~
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 06, 2022, 06:40:19 am
Post by: Starver on November 06, 2022, 06:57:29 am
(Argh, probably not, it hasn't gotten over the original Eternal September and I can't see how to satisfy loads of mutually-exclusive factors in making it practical for the Twitter-generation, the infrastructure providers, the concerned authorities, etc... But then we're worried about Musk-Twitter being too controlled (pay-for-Tick, ban-all-the-Bots, ...) and too anarchic (unban Trump&Co, firing the moderation staff, ...) and I've no idea how that particular circle is being squared, either.)
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 06, 2022, 07:28:23 am
Argh, probably not, it hasn't gotten over the original Eternal September..
Oh,I just remembered that Eternal September was a thing.
The current internet date is then 10659/09/1993.
Post by: Starver on November 06, 2022, 10:57:52 am
Code: [Select]
begin 644 and_on_that_subject.txt
D06YD(&YO;F4@;V8@=&AA="!-24U%('-T=69F+"!E:71H97(A
`
end
Post by: Vector on November 06, 2022, 03:33:21 pm
I know that Deviantart at some point had a truly massive amount of visitors if you wanted to showcase your artwork, it's free but there are also commercial features if you get one of the paid for account upgrade.
I often read about Pixiv and Pinterest when it comes to artwork showcasing, but never use those so i don't know much about them.
Deviantart had its vogue about 15 years ago; PixIV is a Japanese website with very different style/social norms; and Pinterest is not really for posting original content (also it's an overwhelmingly female-used/focused website, and I don't mean the LGBTQ ones like Tumblr, so less friendly for sharing booby pictures).
Post by: Rolan7 on November 06, 2022, 04:38:41 pm
I haven't had this much fun on social media in years!
I guess I used to play with trolls a lot. It was a bad habit and this dopamine hit is very concerning. Fortunately I'm going on a trip tomorrow, keeping me from being overly-online for the week~
I'm pretty proud of
"Have you ever gotten an embarrassing erection in public"
"Yes but he apologized later"
(proud that I didn't make it lewd)
Anyway I hope I exhausted this dipshit for a bit because it's a lot less funny when they do it to other people. Flexing my NB privilege~
Later I spent 10 minutes watching a live stream of a crowd watching a guy eat a rotisserie chicken. Apparently he's done this for several days so far.
Post by: Cathar on November 06, 2022, 06:04:47 pm
Deviantart had its vogue about 15 years ago; PixIV is a Japanese website with very different style/social norms; and Pinterest is not really for posting original content (also it's an overwhelmingly female-used/focused website, and I don't mean the LGBTQ ones like Tumblr, so less friendly for sharing booby pictures).I've been on dA for 13-14 years. It was already on the down trend when I joined, but it still had very active communities. The day that sealed the fate of the platform is the transition from a freemium economy to another, if I recall, and how amateurish it was dealt with.
One day, they hacked into the capacities of the free version, removed and replaced the premium version by what they called "core", about the same but twice the price.
When people complained, they received an extremely arrogant, antagonistic and tone deaf response from the CEO, making an analogy with capsule coffee machine vs french press with the overall message "when your time has value, you don't mind paying for it".
Which in the world of people used to have the adjective "starving" next to their profession name, passed as you would imagine and most of my friends left in protest, many still wishing the CEO to taste some french press coffee when the platform would die out.
PixV...Yeah that's mostly for porn, and it's not very well known in the west, it's mostly a korean/japanese thing.
Willingly or not, they have that label, pretty much like Onlyfan. I know some people who draw regular anime art on it, though. As an artist, what I'm looking for is a plateform to network with likeminded people, which includes means to network, non predatory business model, active public, non-absurd TOS on intellectual property (facebook is out) and sensical view on moderation and censorship. I've been recommended Instagram, but my first forays seem to indicate you have to pay to get views there....so I don't know.
Tumblr wasn't like PixV, in the sense you had a nsfw community, but it was adjascent to a vanilla sfw community. Pretty much like Twitter today. Artists liked it very much because it allowed them to have eyeballs on their art and to network with one another in whatever level of safety they were comfortable with. When they removed the nsfw community, the sfw community disapeared also
I'm pretty proud ofPff lol
"Have you ever gotten an embarrassing erection in public"
"Yes but he apologized later"
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 06, 2022, 07:23:55 pm
Post by: Great Order on November 06, 2022, 11:29:05 pm
I've changed my mind, Twitter rules actually. I led a transphobe into questioning my gender and eventually my chromosomes. When I said I haven't had my genes sequenced, they broke down and spammed 10 nasty replies about testicles and ovaries. (Not DMs, just out there)Twitter seems like a troll's paradise, so long as you're careful to fully separate it from your meatspace life. Both for the same reason, it's full of absolute fucking nutters. Some are harmless and fun, others will find out who you are and do everything to ruin your life.
I haven't had this much fun on social media in years!
I guess I used to play with trolls a lot. It was a bad habit and this dopamine hit is very concerning. Fortunately I'm going on a trip tomorrow, keeping me from being overly-online for the week~
I'm pretty proud of
"Have you ever gotten an embarrassing erection in public"
"Yes but he apologized later"
(proud that I didn't make it lewd)
Anyway I hope I exhausted this dipshit for a bit because it's a lot less funny when they do it to other people. Flexing my NB privilege~
Later I spent 10 minutes watching a live stream of a crowd watching a guy eat a rotisserie chicken. Apparently he's done this for several days so far.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2022, 04:10:03 am
I'm surprised Elon Musk isn't taking a hands-off approach on a company he genuinely doesn't want to run. Right now, it's literally worse than if he just decided to do nothing.
I think you have noticed something significant. I think Elon WANTS Twitter to burn right now.
Maybe he thinks people will pool funds and buy it off him.
Maybe he's having a temper tantrum because the rules actually apply to him (for once).
Post by: Quarque on November 07, 2022, 04:20:51 am
Post by: King Zultan on November 07, 2022, 04:25:24 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 07, 2022, 07:13:57 am
Post by: Quarque on November 07, 2022, 07:32:16 am
Is it possible that he's wanting to destroy Twitter's value simply because he wants to recoup the loss on his taxes (or something like that)?No way. A tax recoup could never compensate the massive financial loss if his investment burns down. It is a mental trap to suspect super smart evil schemes behind any dumb thing a billionaire does. But the thing is, they're humans like you and me and they sometimes make mistakes. Nor do they always keep their head cool when they should.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 07, 2022, 10:07:07 am
I'm 99% sure he doesn't want Twitter to burn. This isn't a devious 5-d chess move he's playing, it's a plain dumb mistake. Or maybe I should say clusterf**.
Since when he was capable pulling off 5-D chess? Doesn't he just follows whatever he sees as most available? You know, in true influential sociopath fashion?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 07, 2022, 10:17:36 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 07, 2022, 10:30:35 am
No way. A tax recoup could never compensate the massive financial loss if his investment burns down. It is a mental trap to suspect super smart evil schemes behind any dumb thing a billionaire does. But the thing is, they're humans like you and me and they sometimes make mistakes. Nor do they always keep their head cool when they should.I think it's less "he's 500 IQ underwater strip poker backgammon master" and more "billionaires have more means to dodge losses than normies"
Sorta like how a drug dealer gets shot by police but a billionaire opiates dealer gets invited to the white house
Post by: Cathar on November 07, 2022, 11:28:27 am
Just for the fun of it, I kind of want to rename my account Elon Musk and put that dumb telephone baby as a profile picture. I'll put "parody" on my bio.
Post by: nenjin on November 07, 2022, 12:21:55 pm
He's trying to take as little time as possible to make decisions that have massive implications.
So in his cocktail napkin math, fire the bottom 50% of coders that produced the least code. That totally makes sense to him.
Or making people pay for verification per month. "X # of users times $8/month = my financial problems at Twitter are solved. Gosh I'm so smart, I'm sure there's nothing I'm over looking."
Those are just a few examples of "I gave this 20 minutes of thought and didn't consult anyone, because I'm a gggeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnniiiiiiuuuuuuuuusssssssssss" style of decision making. With predictable results.
Post by: Strongpoint on November 07, 2022, 02:58:36 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 07, 2022, 03:12:37 pm
Watching this slow-motion trainwreck is actually entertaining. Will we see the first collapse of a major social network? We had a spectacular failure of Google+ but that abonimation just failed to take off.
Oh, that particular visual fills me with mirth. I sure hope that will happen.
Post by: TamerVirus on November 07, 2022, 03:35:16 pm
Watching this slow-motion trainwreck is actually entertaining. Will we see the first collapse of a major social network? We had a spectacular failure of Google+ but that abonimation just failed to take off.Did Myspace collapse? I mean it's still around but it's been mostly forgotten,
Also Zuckerberg is flailing around burning billions making his lame second-life VR Metaverse nonsense that a lot of people don't care about and the apple privacy changes blasted a hole in their cash flows, so we'll see how that turns out.
Elon's doing Elon stuff which we all know.
Tiktok always seems to be on the verge of being declared a national security threat in America.
Lot of different scenarios that may play out here
Post by: anewaname on November 07, 2022, 04:37:30 pm
Without that alternative, Twitter will survive and become profitable. Firing the board was an excellent first step towards a positive profit margin.
For the blue-check's $8/month fee, that seems like a few dollars too much, but it links a bank account to the Twitter account, and wouldn't that assist with enforcement of those federal/state hate-speech laws and with keeping hate-breeders from getting new Twitter accounts after their old Twitter account was banned?
Post by: Frumple on November 07, 2022, 04:56:30 pm
For the blue-check's $8/month fee, that seems like a few dollars too much, but it links a bank account to the Twitter account, and wouldn't that assist with enforcement of those federal/state hate-speech laws and with keeping hate-breeders from getting new Twitter accounts after their old Twitter account was banned?In a theoretical world where twitter hadn't fired most/all of their moderation/legal teams, maybe? We don't live in that world, though.
Post by: Enemy post on November 07, 2022, 05:29:38 pm
The site immediately turned into a 4chan-style cesspool upon their departure, and just as quickly turned back when the moderators returned.
I never actually used Twitter, but it's been darkly fun seeing exactly what I was telling people would happen if the moderation was removed.
Post by: anewaname on November 07, 2022, 05:52:09 pm
It is silly to think that moderation and compliance with federal/state law is going to disappear forever from Twitter. That would be an invite to federal/state level lawsuits.
Post by: Frumple on November 07, 2022, 06:32:41 pm
... it probably will invite state and federal level lawsuits, though. If you haven't noticed Musk doesn't seem to care all that much about that sort of thing :P
Post by: King Zultan on November 08, 2022, 03:33:59 am
Also isn't firing the board a thing everyone does when you buy out a company?
Post by: Strongpoint on November 08, 2022, 07:05:31 am
I'm looking forward to the part where all this social media shit collapses on itself and just fucks off.
About as likely as search engines dying out in 1990s. Current may die but only to be replaced with new ones
Post by: Frumple on November 08, 2022, 08:22:06 am
Also isn't firing the board a thing everyone does when you buy out a company?Nah, especially not so quickly or in its entirety. It's fairly common for some or all of the top management to be retained, and even when they're replaced, it's usually after a transition period where the new owner(s) has time to, y'know, figure out what the hell they were doing and how they were going about it, etc. It's a meme/trope thing in entertainment, but in reality immediately firing the heads of business is, well, dumb. It's remarkably stupid and not what most businesses do. Eventually replace, sure, but just boot the lot of them? Nah.
... it's particularly uncommon to do so in a shitstupid way that gets your new company hit with lawsuits by roughly every single one of them over severance payments and whatnot. I've seen folks note that there's probably entire law firms that are going to be in comfortable business for the next few years handling just the cases that's going to come from that, nevermind everyone further down the employment ladder.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2022, 01:01:03 pm
I have a more useful idea, but fuck Twitter and the twit. Let's see if they figure it out.
Post by: Strongpoint on November 09, 2022, 09:53:48 pm
This shistorm proves to me (once again) that Musk has three skills that made him a very rich man. Namely: creating hype, manipulating stock markets, getting access to Taxpayers' money
Post by: King Zultan on November 10, 2022, 02:07:41 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 10, 2022, 02:13:03 am
He seems hell bent on destroying twitter, which seems weird after how much money he just spent on buying it.
He's probably just angling for the Taxpayer Bailout. Twitter is Too Big To Fail.
The fact that Government Officials use it means it's plausible.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 10, 2022, 03:01:34 am
He introduced a paywall AND destroyed the verification system helping trolls (and scammers) of various kinds. I didn't expect such a level of idiocy...Also daddy's Apartheid money.
This shistorm proves to me (once again) that Musk has three skills that made him a very rich man. Namely: creating hype, manipulating stock markets, getting access to Taxpayers' money
Post by: Starver on November 10, 2022, 04:22:24 am
(...and nine years ago, tomorrow (https://xkcd.com/1289/), which is somewhat relevent, but more adding this to the post because of the near-date...)
Post by: anewaname on November 10, 2022, 11:40:02 am
Post by: Egan_BW on November 10, 2022, 03:14:35 pm
He seems hell bent on destroying twitter, which seems weird after how much money he just spent on buying it.He's just taking this thread's title to heart.
Post by: Frumple on November 10, 2022, 03:27:37 pm
... if that sounds like the recipe for a dumpster fire to you, well. Yeah, probably.
Post by: King Zultan on November 11, 2022, 02:39:20 am
Post by: Telgin on November 11, 2022, 10:34:22 am
Huh. Apparently their chief information security officer, chief privacy office, and chief compliance officer all resigned in the last day or two. Chatter's saying the software engineers are going to be personally responsible for keeping their work compliant with FTC regs and whatnot.
... if that sounds like the recipe for a dumpster fire to you, well. Yeah, probably.
As a web developer who has had to brush with dealing with FTC regulations and compliance, I can guarantee that this means that regulations and compliance will not be maintained. A few developers will probably try, but there's no way they're going to be willing and able to deal with it all on top of actually programming. Especially considering that they all have to work that much harder since so many were fired for using a stupid metric (lines of code written) that nobody has seriously used for 40 years.
Post by: Frumple on November 17, 2022, 09:29:39 pm
The world cup starts sunday. The last time it came around, it took that entire >7k roster to keep twitter running. There's fairly solid odds the website is going to be down for an extended period in the near future, heh.
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 17, 2022, 09:46:36 pm
Post by: Great Order on November 17, 2022, 10:24:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 17, 2022, 10:50:10 pm
Elon finally did some good. He's killing Twitter.
Just watch as the US government bails his ass out ...
Post by: Travis Bickle on November 17, 2022, 11:22:02 pm
Post by: Frumple on November 17, 2022, 11:49:47 pm
The sauds are apparently one of the biggest debt holders involved in the purchase, so it might not be the US gov't that does it if government intervention gets involved :PElon finally did some good. He's killing Twitter.
Just watch as the US government bails his ass out ...
Post by: Telgin on November 18, 2022, 12:15:45 am
Elon finally did some good. He's killing Twitter.
Just watch as the US government bails his ass out ...
Well, the government can't save Twitter at least. Doesn't matter how much money they throw at the problem if all of the domain knowledge walked out of the door.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 18, 2022, 12:28:42 am
The giant sack of taxpayer money will get enough of that back, I'm sure.Elon finally did some good. He's killing Twitter.
Just watch as the US government bails his ass out ...
Well, the government can't save Twitter at least. Doesn't matter how much money they throw at the problem if all of the domain knowledge walked out of the door.
You can't eat respect.
Post by: scriver on November 18, 2022, 02:37:33 am
Post by: King Zultan on November 18, 2022, 02:41:32 am
Post by: Quarque on November 18, 2022, 02:51:27 am
Elon finally did some good. He's killing Twitter.
Just watch as the US government bails his ass out ...
Well, the government can't save Twitter at least. Doesn't matter how much money they throw at the problem if all of the domain knowledge walked out of the door.
The government isn't going to intervene here. Banks are so essential that they have to be saved (and therefore an argument can be made that they should never be commercial entities in the first place). Twitter? No way.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 18, 2022, 03:35:26 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on November 18, 2022, 04:40:07 am
Yeah, Twitter will die for better or for worse, there will be a power vacuum, and then another social network will rise in its pace (probably Mastodon tbh), then the cycle will repeat in ~20 years.
And Bay12, meanwhile...
Yeah, we will be around to discuss the Grand Fall Of Mastodon too. Give it a decade more, take or add a half.
Post by: Max™ on November 18, 2022, 10:26:53 pm
Before he decided to make himself the Full Time Main Character™ there were various degrees of competence that it was reasonable to assume the moron had.
Like, I knew going to Mars with a goddamn hypercapitalist was a terrible idea, but I figured it was because he was obviously going to "accidentally" invent new exciting forms of slavery for air and water! !!Fun!!
In Sci-Fi you sometimes encounter folks who have thought out issues like long term colonies and see something pop up which could basically be called the Revolution of the Grandchildren: the first generation KNOWS what this equipment is and why it is critical to maintain, the second generation has it instilled in them as a way of life because it is literally THE WAY OF LIFE, the third generation resents this crufty old hand-me-down ideology and thinks if air scrubbers are so great why don't YOU fix it, old man?
Best case for a colony under that stupid mook it would have ~3 generations with possibility of a slave revolt beforehand, or so I thought.
LITTLE DID I KNOW, he's so fucking stupid he'd end up bumbling around in the air recycling levels and start asking "so what is all this shit, it's so noisy, make it quieter or you're fired!" and end up killing everyone off within a year, tops.
Post by: Enemy post on November 18, 2022, 10:34:54 pm
Post by: Max™ on November 18, 2022, 10:53:16 pm
Also saw someone point out that while everyone was reaching out to make sure they don't lose contact with everyone they know on twitter literally nobody even considered that metaverse nonsense.
Post by: King Zultan on November 19, 2022, 03:53:30 am
Post by: Imic on November 19, 2022, 12:50:49 pm
I keep hearing about this metevers thing but I have no idea what the hell it is, I think it's some kind of VR shit maybe.That's as much as any human being should know about it.
Post by: Starver on November 19, 2022, 03:37:38 pm
If I can't call myself Hiro Protagonist and write most of the virtual sword-fighting algorithms, I'm not interested...I keep hearing about this metevers thing but I have no idea what the hell it is, I think it's some kind of VR shit maybe.That's as much as any human being should know about it.
Post by: Vector on November 19, 2022, 07:17:53 pm
Post by: brewer bob on November 19, 2022, 08:17:48 pm
Jordan Peterson
I'd completely forgotten that this jerk exists.
Post by: heydude6 on November 19, 2022, 10:08:11 pm
Post by: Max™ on November 19, 2022, 10:49:09 pm
Post by: Starver on November 20, 2022, 02:04:27 am
Except that Twitter has also changed, in the last 22 months. It seems to have a time-delayed "splash across the page" to get me to log in (and create an account, if necessary, which it would be), so that I effectively can't just scroll through as an unregistered user. There's no close-the-popover hotspot obvious (could be white-on-white, but there didn't seem to be a hotspot in the usual corner-positions) and it effectively prevents my old practice of read-only twitter-binging (which probably wasn't healthy anyway), diving into things of interest.
Might be a Mobile Site peculiarity (until I force the browser to work in desktop-site mode) or one which I can neuter by other fancy browser functionality, but the banner suggesting I use the App (installed, but never used) was already there in its only slightly annnoying (and ignorable, not needing any particular fuss). And not sure if this splashover is Musk's deliberate doing, even, if he's already been firing anybody who might be competent enough to effectively accountwall the site as part of some further destructive and counterproductive strategy.
Post by: Vector on November 20, 2022, 02:21:15 am
Post by: Starver on November 20, 2022, 11:52:34 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 21, 2022, 07:20:48 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on December 08, 2022, 05:13:59 pm
Post by: heydude6 on December 08, 2022, 05:25:41 pm
I’m shocked, just shocked! I can’t believe he’d throw it all away to do PR for a billionaire /s
Post by: Magmacube_tr on December 08, 2022, 05:56:01 pm
Is this about the twitter files incident?
I’m shocked, just shocked! I can’t believe he’d throw it all away to do PR for a billionaire /s
No, like, the entire situation.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 08, 2022, 06:22:23 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on December 08, 2022, 06:33:28 pm
I'm not really sure where you're going with this. I don't see any new stories about Twitter.
AAAAAA-
My gosh... Alright.
The "situation" I am talking about is Elon acquiring Twitter and running it into the ground. The music I linked is called "Omg, What has he done?", which plays when the Portal 2 character Wheatley is destroying the facility due to being a moron.
Is it clear now? Do I need to get more verbose about what was once a simple joke?
Post by: EuchreJack on December 08, 2022, 06:36:17 pm
Post by: King Zultan on December 09, 2022, 02:16:04 am
Post by: EuchreJack on December 09, 2022, 02:27:38 am
Why bother banning it, it's gonna be dead in a few months at this rate.
We Beat Dead Horses in the US.
Post by: scriver on December 09, 2022, 11:00:44 am
I mean I presume 60 minutes is still a reliable source, they have a pretty good renommé I believe? I also have not watched the entire show on it, just this small clip.
Post by: King Zultan on December 10, 2022, 02:59:34 am
We Beat Dead Horses in the US.Beating a dead horse is a tradition all over the world, always fun to hit dead things with a stick.
Post by: dragdeler on December 10, 2022, 04:53:43 am
Short format video= less server load for more individual clicks and the possibilty to interject ads at each of those clicks.
Gotta love how YT retroactively turned clips under a certain length into shorts, much less UI, oh you wanted to see that in slowmo yeah no FUCK YOU this YT shorts ®®$®
Post by: scriver on December 10, 2022, 06:19:54 am
I'm still not 100% sure what the hell TikTok is, as far as I can tell it's like a shitty youtube filled with narcissists.
Apparently not the Chinese version
Post by: heydude6 on December 10, 2022, 12:42:17 pm
Gotta love how YT retroactively turned clips under a certain length into shorts, much less UI, oh you wanted to see that in slowmo yeah no FUCK YOU this YT shorts ®®$®
I don't think YT retroactively changed any clips into shorts. Shorts are filmed with a vertical aspect ratio and you couldn't upload those types of video to YT at all prior to shorts. Additionally, many creators still upload their tiny clips as regular videos rather than shorts (CircleToonsHD is an example) so I don't think YT is forcing short videos into becoming ShortsTM either.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 10, 2022, 08:42:34 pm
Chinese version infinitly better as in correctly venerates Pandas.I'm still not 100% sure what the hell TikTok is, as far as I can tell it's like a shitty youtube filled with narcissists.
Apparently not the Chinese version
Post by: tonnot98 on December 10, 2022, 10:39:21 pm
I don't think YT retroactively changed any clips into shorts. Shorts are filmed with a vertical aspect ratio and you couldn't upload those types of video to YT at all prior to shorts. Additionally, many creators still upload their tiny clips as regular videos rather than shorts (CircleToonsHD is an example) so I don't think YT is forcing short videos into becoming ShortsTM either.It changed like one or two of my videos that were uploaded before shorts.
Post by: heydude6 on December 10, 2022, 10:44:32 pm
Post by: King Zultan on December 11, 2022, 01:58:38 am
Also whatever happened to Vine I haven't heard anything about that in a few years seems like.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 11, 2022, 06:39:29 am
Post by: scriver on December 11, 2022, 08:16:31 am
Post by: Ziusudra on December 11, 2022, 10:40:45 am
Also whatever happened to Vine I haven't heard anything about that in a few years seems like.Would you believe killed by Twitter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service))
Post by: King Zultan on December 12, 2022, 02:42:10 am
Well that answers that, also damn twitter for killing that thing I never used.Also whatever happened to Vine I haven't heard anything about that in a few years seems like.Would you believe killed by Twitter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service))
For youtube shorts, I always change the URL from Shorts to Watch. That plops it into the normal player.Thanks for the info.
Post by: Max™ on December 13, 2022, 02:53:35 am
Oh, that is already happening. I've moved on, and hope the US proposed ban on Government phones having TikTok is expanded to Twitter. I mean, Twitter gave us Trump, so it has to Go.Ahem: that fucking COPS show not being shut down and all the other fucking "reality" tv garbage since then not being punished brutally is why the piece of shit who made Survivor decided to take a terrible businessman and present him as a savvy CEO as a joke which apparently nobody got is how we ended up with the orange cunt as a president.
The discovery by the british of tea in india and sugarcane/ideal climate to grow it in the americas combined with their willingness to destroy the world for it is how we ended up with the slave trade and general eurotrash willingness to slaughter natives is why the US is built on a bedrock of dead natives and horribly abused slaves and white people being garbage left us with a chunk of bitchass loser racists that are STILL pissed at them losing the civil war which enabled a party willing to appeal to exclusively them with no morals to speak of into a perfect storm of the absolute worst and least discriminating garbage people voting for the absolute worst piece of shit ever elected and bitching nonstop that he lost.
So now a rich bitchboy bought twitter to try and appeal to the smallbrained racists who hate it being used for anything but advancing their racist bullshit.
Mastodon on the other hand is great.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 13, 2022, 03:07:56 am
For reference: with my current list I can follow EHA and ASH highlights without even trying. Not applicable in Mastodon.
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2022, 11:40:17 am
I also think a lot about whether it would be good to have nationalised/public "town square marketplace" where people can put up their digital "market stalls" the way fur example amazon enables non-amazon private people to sell through amazon. Basically to prevent the kind of monopolisation amazon do even on independent Internet outlets where amazon's market dominance means that if you aren't selling through amazon you aren't visible to customers.
Post by: McTraveller on December 13, 2022, 12:41:59 pm
I think having free speech is important, but I suspect (strongly) that people have forgotten that you also need responsible speech.
I'm all for opposing viewpoints on opinion-based topics, but almost all social media tends to devolve to irresponsible speech - people stating opinions as fact is one of the most nefarious examples because it's not as obvious as outright denigration of some demographic. Due to decades of culture shift, most people no longer have the cognitive tools necessary to know if a statement made with unfounded certainty does indeed have merit or if they should just accept it because it was delivered with confidence.
Post by: Starver on December 13, 2022, 12:57:38 pm
Well, there's always the example set by China (national, including Social Media Credits/Demerits both from and to real-life activities and opportunities) or one of those NextDoor-type intentionally geographically fragmented systems (I've had at least a couple "Please come and join us at the North Southcentral Eastwestwick Village Forum page, with the following code, and chat with you fellow neighbours..." come through my door over the last year or three[1]...).
I'm ultracynical about having to engage, this way, and while it's still a worldwide scrum where you don't have to be tied down to either private or governmental mode of online communication (assuming you're lucky enough to still have that choice) then I can mitigate a lot of the problems in the current "overpowered information holder(s)" system by just voting with my fingers and choosing whether/how to participate in any given bandwagon.
[1] For all I know, everyone in my suitably little isolated bit of geography is now using this exclusively to talk about how asocial I'm being. But nobody's saying it to my face, so maybe someone else is just pretending to be me, and doing a good job of entirely neutrally representing myself, in absentia
Post by: lemon10 on December 14, 2022, 12:58:42 am
I've been thinking for some time that I want to see a public/national attempt at a social media site. I'm not sure what I want from it in terms of the differences between different social media sites. I just feel like if social media is going to be butting into such a important aspect of people's lives as social media does today, then there is a big argument for not just leaving it to private interests.That already kind of exists; Tiktok.
I also think a lot about whether it would be good to have nationalised/public "town square marketplace" where people can put up their digital "market stalls" the way fur example amazon enables non-amazon private people to sell through amazon. Basically to prevent the kind of monopolisation amazon do even on independent Internet outlets where amazon's market dominance means that if you aren't selling through amazon you aren't visible to customers.
And not the tiktok that we get here in the USA or most of the world, but the one they get in China, where the government, fully recognizing that social media with no drive other then having an algorithm maximizing engagement is toxic (and a major engine of social change that that they want control of):
1) Limited the daily time spent on it.
2) Artificially controls the topics so that its not 90% dances/whatever by volume and is instead largely educational/patriotic/whatever.
Post by: Bumber on December 14, 2022, 01:26:43 am
I've been thinking for some time that I want to see a public/national attempt at a social media site. I'm not sure what I want from it in terms of the differences between different social media sites. I just feel like if social media is going to be butting into such a important aspect of people's lives as social media does today, then there is a big argument for not just leaving it to private interests.
USA has the issue of the 1st amendment. They wouldn't be able to remove any content except that which outright breaks a law (and most hate speech doesn't.) You'd be drowned in "Kill all <slur>s!", and the best you could do is have a setting to filter it out (via manual flagging or an algorithm, both subject to false positives and potential legal challenges.)
Post by: Strongpoint on December 14, 2022, 01:39:23 am
Oh, and it is currently impossible to register using a Ukrainian phone number :D
Post by: EuchreJack on December 14, 2022, 03:37:00 pm
You misspelled "Amen"Oh, that is already happening. I've moved on, and hope the US proposed ban on Government phones having TikTok is expanded to Twitter. I mean, Twitter gave us Trump, so it has to Go.Ahem: that fucking COPS show not being shut down and all the other fucking "reality" tv garbage since then not being punished brutally is why the piece of shit who made Survivor decided to take a terrible businessman and present him as a savvy CEO as a joke which apparently nobody got is how we ended up with the orange cunt as a president.
The discovery by the british of tea in india and sugarcane/ideal climate to grow it in the americas combined with their willingness to destroy the world for it is how we ended up with the slave trade and general eurotrash willingness to slaughter natives is why the US is built on a bedrock of dead natives and horribly abused slaves and white people being garbage left us with a chunk of bitchass loser racists that are STILL pissed at them losing the civil war which enabled a party willing to appeal to exclusively them with no morals to speak of into a perfect storm of the absolute worst and least discriminating garbage people voting for the absolute worst piece of shit ever elected and bitching nonstop that he lost.
So now a rich bitchboy bought twitter to try and appeal to the smallbrained racists who hate it being used for anything but advancing their racist bullshit.
Mastodon on the other hand is great.
Post by: Vector on December 14, 2022, 08:52:26 pm
send toot
Post by: Great Order on December 14, 2022, 09:05:21 pm
I kid. Sort of. Transphobia was already rampant, but Elon's throwing a transphobic shitfit after his wife left him and was hanging out with Chelsea Manning AND his daughter came out and basically disavowed him. Given he runs the company as his own fiefdom despite claims of being pro-free speech (Funny how that only ever, ever seems to apply to right-wing commentary when it's stated out loud, isn't it?) it's hardly a surprise.
Depressing, yes, but not surprising.
Speaking of though, after the recent LGBTQ club shooting there was a tweet sent out by the LGBA blatantly ignoring trans victims. Everyone got on their backs, including a self-avowed gender critical, all telling them they were being disrespectful twats.
Post by: Vector on December 14, 2022, 09:37:50 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on December 14, 2022, 10:12:19 pm
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/14/business/bernard-arnault-richest-person/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/14/business/bernard-arnault-richest-person/index.html)
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/14/tech/elonjet-twitter-suspended/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/14/tech/elonjet-twitter-suspended/index.html)
In the first, the now-richest man stopped using his private jet because he was "Twitter shamed" over it's use.
In the second, Mr. Musk suspended the account of the person tracking HIS private jet.
...what a shock
Post by: EuchreJack on December 14, 2022, 10:16:36 pm
https://www.iflscience.com/woman-finds-the-bots-are-very-much-still-on-twitter-with-two-word-test-66609 (https://www.iflscience.com/woman-finds-the-bots-are-very-much-still-on-twitter-with-two-word-test-66609)
Taking bets on how long her account lasts...
Post by: Vector on December 14, 2022, 10:49:06 pm
Post by: Devastator on December 14, 2022, 11:25:07 pm
I've got it easy because I only ever followed twitter to read about a dozen individual feeds, and I can still find those people elsewhere. Gotta be rough for others, though.
I also browse in a window sized to remove all 'trending' and 'suggested accounts' on the right side of the screen.
Post by: Devastator on December 14, 2022, 11:32:44 pm
The alternatives to Twitter are crap, because they are not scalable (sure, some have decent features and good online communities, but that will not scale upwards). Even the got-no-Twitter-account-but-follow-some-feeds people are not going to want something new.
Without that alternative, Twitter will survive and become profitable. Firing the board was an excellent first step towards a positive profit margin.
For the blue-check's $8/month fee, that seems like a few dollars too much, but it links a bank account to the Twitter account, and wouldn't that assist with enforcement of those federal/state hate-speech laws and with keeping hate-breeders from getting new Twitter accounts after their old Twitter account was banned?
Should do the math on that. Something like 10% of the costs were for staff.
Post by: King Zultan on December 15, 2022, 02:04:35 am
Post by: EuchreJack on December 15, 2022, 09:33:41 pm
Elon's threatening legal action against the kid tracking his movements, and now forbids accounts from tracking people. (https://www.businessinsider.com/student-who-tracks-elon-musk-jet-not-concerned-potential-lawsuit-2022-12?amp)
Because apparently only Corporations and Rich People can do that, obviously. :P
...I wish Twitter was dead already.
Post by: Strongpoint on December 15, 2022, 11:10:07 pm
It is a hilarious trainwreck.
The saddest part is that Elon's fanbase still thinks that he is a benevolent genius and the savior of humanity not a narcissistic conman
Post by: EuchreJack on December 15, 2022, 11:16:16 pm
Lol, now Twitter doesn't let you post Mastadon links :DCults be like that. Or maybe I should say fanboys be like that. Same diff, really.
It is a hilarious trainwreck.
The saddest part is that Elon's fanbase still thinks that he is a benevolent genius and the savior of humanity not a narcissistic conman
It's just so hard having independent ideas and beliefs. It's just so much easier to just Drink the Free Beer. DWI's are for other people anyways.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 16, 2022, 12:20:02 am
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04432-7 (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04432-7)
My favorite part was Fauci's original answer:
"On Sunday, entrepreneur Elon Musk called for your prosecution, claiming that you lied to Congress and funded research that killed millions of people. How do you respond to the tweets?
I don’t pay attention to that, Max, and I don’t feel I need to respond. I don’t tweet. I don’t have a Twitter account. A lot of that stuff is just a cesspool of misinformation, and I don’t waste a minute worrying about it."
... unfortunately, Falsi couldn't keep his story straight, and contradicted himself in the next Answer. Oh well.
I do actually worry about the CDC meddling in Social Engineering.
They've gone after Gun Owners before...
Rich Fucks fighting, why should I care?
Post by: King Zultan on December 16, 2022, 04:00:38 am
Cults be like that. Or maybe I should say fanboys be like that. Same diff, really.Wait it there are cults that give out alcohol, all the cults I've joined had kool aid, I feel ripped off.
It's just so hard having independent ideas and beliefs. It's just so much easier to just Drink the Free Beer. DWI's are for other people anyways.
Post by: darkhog on December 16, 2022, 08:19:54 am
Post by: Starver on December 16, 2022, 11:20:00 am
... unfortunately, Fauci couldn't keep his story straight, and contradicted himself in the next Answer....not really. He doesn't particularly worry about Twitter, but he's still got plenty of other idiots to worry about.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 16, 2022, 07:47:11 pm
(Corrected. Your irrational bias is showing.)Thanks for clarifying. Fauci's biggest problem is that he's just doesn't understand how easy it is for people to misread what anyone speaking publicly says. And I wasn't intentionally looking for a contradiction, it just seemed to be there.... unfortunately, Fauci couldn't keep his story straight, and contradicted himself in the next Answer....not really. He doesn't particularly worry about Twitter, but he's still got plenty of other idiots to worry about.
Post by: Starver on December 17, 2022, 02:23:46 am
But anyone looking for an apparent slip can always find one, at least to their own particular satisfaction. As proven. What's the solution to that? No longer actually be the attempted voice of reason and science, just let anything said by anyone else (uninformed/misinformed/malinforming) go through on the nod? Might be personally easier, but wouldn't be more correct.
There are some for whom it is best to stay quiet, and be thought to not have any sensible opinions; rather than pipe up, and thence remove all doubt. But, however imperfect, Fauci has been shown to be far more correct than wrong; and, when considering the total guff out there (with or without his doing his actual job) being spewed by those whose 'job' seems not to involve any form of "truth clause", possibly even the reverse...
In other words, you probably don't actually understand Fauci's biggest problems at all.
Post by: Strongpoint on December 18, 2022, 02:20:23 pm
Yeah, it will help to keep people on Twitter, Elon
(I strongly suspect that some countries have laws against such gatekeeping behavior. Lawsuits will be hillarious)
Post by: anewaname on December 18, 2022, 06:28:58 pm
"What is a violation of this policy?"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on December 18, 2022, 06:34:17 pm
I found this most telling:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Starver on December 18, 2022, 06:44:48 pm
To quote Inigo Montoya "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Post by: King Zultan on December 19, 2022, 03:17:27 am
Post by: Ziusudra on December 19, 2022, 03:02:35 pm
This is where the Twitter policy banning some links (https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platforms-policy) is posted. I'm not sure how these clauses are intended to work together...They've deleted that page now.
"What is a violation of this policy?""What is not a violation of this policy?"Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then apparently there's
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkWHbSmXwAUcmDi?format=jpg&name=small)
Post by: EuchreJack on December 19, 2022, 03:07:16 pm
Post by: JoshuaFH on December 19, 2022, 06:30:49 pm
They've deleted that page now.
Then apparently there's
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkWHbSmXwAUcmDi?format=jpg&name=small)
Spoiler: Relevant (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on December 19, 2022, 06:43:06 pm
He's lost a lot of money on this debacle but maybe his feelings are a little hurt, and that's the most we can ever hope to do to a billionaire. I don't think he'll ever pay for his obvious counts of stock manipulation, and he'll certainly never go hungry. Which is not to say that he *should* go hungry- but he's contributed less than nothing to humanity. He deserves, at BEST, the same as the panhandlers in my town.
So I hope his feelings are slightly hurt as he lounges in his mansion, idly toying with the power to save hundreds of thousands of lives.
Post by: JoshuaFH on December 19, 2022, 06:48:06 pm
he'll certainly never go hungry. Which is not to say that he *should* go hungry-
No, he should definitely go hungry. A little starvation would probably teach him the value of that green shit he hoards so much of.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 19, 2022, 07:18:12 pm
Not to mention he'll blame bots again, of course.Didn't he 'solve' that?
Post by: None on December 20, 2022, 09:56:40 am
In his latest example, bots don't pay $8 to participate in vanity polls, so Musk isn't actually stepping down as CEO per his last poll; he's running it again for verified users only. You gotta pay if you wanna tell his metrics that he's a clammy chode, and by that point he has your money.
Post by: hector13 on December 20, 2022, 03:56:06 pm
He is deliberately attempting to make Twitter fail because it will dampen progressive voices (because all of the largest social media companies are socialist, despite being at the heart of capitalism and making their money off massive invasions of user privacy) and amplify conservative voices, by making Trump’s social media thing a more appealing choice than the flaming wreckage of Twitter.
*takes of tinfoil hat*
I like how he’s changed the policy so that only paid for blue ticks now get to vote, ‘cause now I can make the joke that free speech is not free anymore.
Post by: Starver on December 20, 2022, 07:40:09 pm
[1] If it turns out he's actually gone into orbit, I'd refrain from suggesting he's "out there!", etc...
Post by: King Zultan on December 21, 2022, 03:14:12 am
Post by: hector13 on December 21, 2022, 03:26:56 am
Post by: scriver on December 21, 2022, 04:49:19 am
I don't get why he's resisting since he was supposedly looking for a replacement to run the company anyway.
Regardless, it will be immensely funny if he does lose again.
It might be that if he has secured funding for twitter and they are demanding his resignation as CEO, then this could have been an attempt to prove or make it look like "the people still believe in him and want him there" to strengthen his position.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 21, 2022, 01:07:33 pm
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/20/tech/elon-musk-security-team-sought-for-questioning/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/20/tech/elon-musk-security-team-sought-for-questioning/index.html)
As one of my professors liked to say "Conspiracy is a boat that can take you all sorts of places".
Post by: anewaname on December 21, 2022, 03:24:37 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on December 21, 2022, 04:31:09 pm
Probably the guy who was following the Musk's security people.
Hm, ordinarily I would agree, but it sounds like Musky has pissed off the cops. He must have run out of money to bribe them with...
Post by: hector13 on December 21, 2022, 04:43:48 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 21, 2022, 05:48:45 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on December 21, 2022, 08:36:11 pm
Post by: anewaname on December 22, 2022, 09:02:40 am
The guy was probably observed more than once and was probably video'd, before they took the action of dealing with him. I don't know if that guy following the security team is the same as the guy Musk tweeted as "blocked car from moving & climbed onto hood", but both actions are the sort that police would need to investigate and the police would take the time to determine if crimes were done by either party. Maybe the security team lashed out hard... or maybe was it justified because there was an observable threat?
Post by: dragdeler on December 22, 2022, 11:35:50 am
Quote
was probably observed more than once
Where is the presumption of innonence y'all had a shitfit about recently, ugh KMN
Post by: hector13 on December 22, 2022, 02:53:45 pm
Post by: King Zultan on December 23, 2022, 04:25:43 am
Post by: scriver on December 23, 2022, 08:49:11 am
Post by: EuchreJack on December 23, 2022, 03:08:25 pm
Post by: anewaname on December 24, 2022, 02:42:16 pm
So, "the presumption of innocence" is always adjacent to "the accusation". Both must be evaluated because when one appears, the other is automatically created in opposition. Both sides must be argued, regardless of your opinion of those people involved.
Once security people get into Musk's price range, they tend to handle things professionally and as a team. I am not saying they are sweet and law-abiding people; I am saying they know the laws and they protect themselves legally before starting a conflict. They start conflicts intentionally to push people away from their clients, but first they gather evidence to protect themselves.
In this situation, both parties are guilty here of pushing legal boundaries; this is about anti-stalker and anti-paparazzi laws. These laws that protect individuals and celebrities; do you think these laws only apply to people you like or identify with? There are two cases here... guy threatening Musk and Musk's people threatening the guy.
The guy was following Musk or Musk's security teams and they took video evidence of it. Once they had enough video of him following them, they questioned him in his car, asking specific questions for future court evidence, then they set up the conflict that resulted in the guy on the hood of the car and he was probably acting very emotionally.
Musk's security team will press charges against the guy and the guy is going to lose in court, because they already gathered the evidence showing he was stalking Musk, "stalking" according to the law.
Unless the guy also has evidence of that final conflict showing the security team broke the law, Musk's team will probably not be charged because the narrative in court will not be "guy was attacked by security team" but "the security team was protecting Musk and his family and the final conflict was the result of the defendant's emotional state".
Outside of this case, here is the maxim:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ziusudra on May 11, 2023, 04:13:25 pm
Quote
He did not name her but said she will be starting in about six weeks.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 11, 2023, 04:30:47 pm
Post by: jipehog on May 11, 2023, 04:36:17 pm
Post by: Ziusudra on May 11, 2023, 07:57:39 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 11, 2023, 07:59:45 pm
Post by: Starver on May 11, 2023, 08:31:40 pm
Elona Musk
Noel Smuk
Post by: muldrake on May 11, 2023, 10:10:18 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 12, 2023, 01:09:04 am
At least that guy has a limited lifespan.
Post by: King Zultan on May 12, 2023, 01:46:25 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 12, 2023, 01:53:39 am
Who honestly cares about twatter? It exudes pure stupidity. There is nothing good about it, and Elon Musk being an absolute moron more or less ensures its demise.I dont particularily like Elon Musk but people have been announcing Twitter's imminent demise for a year and its still here
Post by: Starver on May 12, 2023, 03:40:35 am
I dont particularily like Elon Musk but people have been announcing Twitter's imminent demise for a year and its still hereI, for one, still think it's doomed. I stand by my extensive predictions about it on my Geocities page, or you can listen to my MyAudio2Go podcasts... Just search for them on HotBot.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 12, 2023, 05:01:55 am
I dont particularily like Elon Musk but people have been announcing Twitter's imminent demise for a year and its still hereWho can say with such huge companies? The only certainty in life is that everything must end one day. Whether it has a Skype collapse or a Yahoo collapse you just never know with this kinda stuff. Everything's too big to fail until it dies
Post by: jipehog on May 12, 2023, 05:38:03 am
Post by: Strongpoint on May 12, 2023, 07:15:27 am
I wonder how soon they will turn on Musk when they'll lose hope that $8 per month will make them popular.
Post by: scriver on May 12, 2023, 07:23:14 am
Post by: jipehog on May 12, 2023, 07:46:23 am
My favorite part of the new Twitter is losers who were confident that their accounts had nearly zero followers because of "woke Twitter algorithms" and not the fact that no one is interested in their stupid content.These aren't the bread and butter of twitter, and I don't see brands and celebrities giving up on such huge platform. Otherwise there is no shortage of people who love to hate musk.
I wonder how soon they will turn on Musk when they'll lose hope that $8 per month will make them popular.
Also if musk manage to turn twitter into a super app, I suspect that many things will change. I wouldn't be surprised if musk blue tag(?) isn't motived purely by need to verify users (by which you provide financial info) but a stepping stone.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 12, 2023, 10:11:35 am
I'd pay 8 dollars a month to make a friendWhat, they don't have any non-for-profits out your way?
I pay like 70/year for a whole building of friends, and they mostly buy me drinks. But then again, I might have given up more of my life than I should have...
Post by: Ziusudra on May 12, 2023, 11:52:30 am
god forbid women do anythingOnly in the last few years hav women CEOs outnumbered CEOs named John (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-04-25/women-ceos-at-big-companies-finally-outnumber-those-named-john). And when they are given the chance it's often only when some asshole has screwed every thing up so bad none the the Johns (or James, Roberts, Toms, Dicks, or Harrys) will take the job. Then when they fail to to save the unsavable fast enough it gets blamed on them not being a man.
Post by: hector13 on May 12, 2023, 11:56:47 am
Post by: Frumple on May 12, 2023, 11:58:10 am
This is a lot more reliable than trying for twitter, heh. We've seen what ol' muskrat will do to twitter blue holders (cf. twitter files asshole, far more literally with relevant tesla owners), and it's throw them under a bus and then drive it back and forth a few times :VI'd pay 8 dollars a month to make a friendWhat, they don't have any non-for-profits out your way?
I pay like 70/year for a whole building of friends, and they mostly buy me drinks. But then again, I might have given up more of my life than I should have...
Post by: jipehog on May 12, 2023, 12:31:35 pm
Musk confirms Twitter’s new CEO is ad guru Linda Yaccarino from NBCUniversal (https://apnews.com/article/twitter-musk-new-ceo-a5df68e9a1e5f982368390c73aeabb50)Ahh advertising the real bread and butter, seems like smart choice that many investors would like.
Post by: Frumple on May 12, 2023, 01:02:32 pm
Post by: scriver on May 13, 2023, 01:52:07 am
I'unno, from what I've seen their latest chops was some kind of streaming service they've managed to lead to what's approaching billion dollar losses. Investors have brains like goldfish with head injuries, though, so who knows.
I was just about to ask how that Tucker guy was supposed to relaunch his show on a 140 character format, but I'm guessing this is how
Post by: dragdeler on May 13, 2023, 03:23:56 am
Watch fallen legacy media conservative icons, can we get Bill O Reilley? Ney, can we dig Rush Limbaugh out of the grave?!
Then you get to really express yourself within 140 characters, youtube superchat is shitting it's pants allready.
Then your twitter behaviour can be linked to your watching behaviour to better target you with ads, political ads by preference.
Gradually legacy media will realise how much more convenient this is to them.
Then they can all go back to being one big disgusting abusive family. Since nobody needs to be tarnished by the other, it's all just free speech and as they collectively wiggle out of publisher duties.
Then they slap a facebook light on there so the mobile games that only proliferate through ads can happen on the same site, conveniently relieving you of money.
It will be peak internet.
Post by: King Zultan on May 13, 2023, 04:25:42 am
Post by: dragdeler on May 13, 2023, 05:16:31 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 13, 2023, 05:53:21 am
Post by: dragdeler on May 13, 2023, 06:01:37 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 13, 2023, 06:11:08 am
Post by: jipehog on May 13, 2023, 07:44:41 am
What's that a super app you say, are you sure you don't mean a super waste of time?Given USA political polarized environment, as exemplified by the circle jerk here I actually think it has better chance to succeed.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 02:14:58 am
Fuck yes I can see it now, E-E-E X (ksssss) the everything app!...and apparently Google is just gonna up and die. LOL
Watch fallen legacy media conservative icons, can we get Bill O Reilley? Ney, can we dig Rush Limbaugh out of the grave?!
Then you get to really express yourself within 140 characters, youtube superchat is shitting it's pants allready.
Then your twitter behaviour can be linked to your watching behaviour to better target you with ads, political ads by preference.
Gradually legacy media will realise how much more convenient this is to them.
Then they can all go back to being one big disgusting abusive family. Since nobody needs to be tarnished by the other, it's all just free speech and as they collectively wiggle out of publisher duties.
Then they slap a facebook light on there so the mobile games that only proliferate through ads can happen on the same site, conveniently relieving you of money.
It will be peak internet.
Post by: King Zultan on May 14, 2023, 03:00:16 am
What does any of this have to do with US politics anyway, I'm just here to say I hate twitter and all other social media shit.What's that a super app you say, are you sure you don't mean a super waste of time?Given USA political polarized environment, as exemplified by the circle jerk here I actually think it has better chance to succeed.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 07:05:00 pm
What does any of this have to do with US politics anyway, I'm just here to say I hate twitter and all other social media shit.What's that a super app you say, are you sure you don't mean a super waste of time?Given USA political polarized environment, as exemplified by the circle jerk here I actually think it has better chance to succeed.
Welcome to School, where we're gonna School you on US politics and twitter. Don't worry, we locked the doors, there is no escape, you WILL learn...
1) US President Biden and the Democrats announce a policy of banning petroleum products for fueling cars and homes
2) The Saudi Arabian Princes, who own Saudi Arabia, then funded Twitter's acquisition by Elon Musk. Saudi Arabia, if you do not know, has only ever made money selling petroleum products.
Twitter is thus one of the tools being used to reverse US policy of ending dependence on petroleum products.
Post by: jipehog on May 14, 2023, 07:32:53 pm
Because USA politics is what fuels this thread. Otherwise a Super-app (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-app) isn't necessarily just for social media. I can think of several way in which such an app can be used. And between Twitters already big user base, Musk investing non-woke AI alternative to OpenAI, options for integration in Teslas etc products, this streaming deal by Tucker Carlson (that just mind boggling lucky), and Musk out the way. I suspect that there is a good chance to make successful product.What does any of this have to do with US politics anyway, I'm just here to say I hate twitter and all other social media shit.What's that a super app you say, are you sure you don't mean a super waste of time?Given USA political polarized environment, as exemplified by the circle jerk here I actually think it has better chance to succeed.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 10:24:58 pm
Well, they've finally got around to the 200 IQ move of getting Musk out of the daily operations, so it at least has a fighting chance...Because USA politics is what fuels this thread. Otherwise a Super-app (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-app) isn't necessarily just for social media. I can think of several way in which such an app can be used. And between Twitters already big user base, Musk investing non-work AI alternative to OpenAI, options for integration in Teslas etc products, this streaming deal by Tucker Carlson (that just mind boggling lucky), and Musk out the way. I suspect that there is a good chance to make successful product.What does any of this have to do with US politics anyway, I'm just here to say I hate twitter and all other social media shit.What's that a super app you say, are you sure you don't mean a super waste of time?Given USA political polarized environment, as exemplified by the circle jerk here I actually think it has better chance to succeed.
Post by: jipehog on May 14, 2023, 10:32:17 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 14, 2023, 10:44:05 pm
Post by: King Zultan on May 15, 2023, 03:45:17 am
Also you guys sure do love to shove politics into every damn thing.
Post by: jipehog on May 15, 2023, 11:00:08 am
Post by: hector13 on May 15, 2023, 11:13:52 am
He signed a contract to buy Twitter for $45bn before realizing it would be a waste of money, and tried to back out of it before getting sued to buy it. He is not a smart man.
Post by: nenjin on May 15, 2023, 11:15:56 am
Quote
He’s just really good at PR.
I think that depends on your definition of "good at." I guess if you subscribe to the philosophy that there's no such thing as bad PR......
Post by: hector13 on May 15, 2023, 11:17:51 am
Post by: Egan_BW on May 15, 2023, 11:41:38 am
Post by: jipehog on May 15, 2023, 11:48:30 am
As wealthy person of influence tweeting at time of USA polarization and becoming more right leaning with time, he is also became very unpopular. Probably roughly half the country's hates him with passion and participating in the usual pejorative circle jerk any time his names come up, unable to see anything beside their politics.
Post by: nenjin on May 15, 2023, 11:59:32 am
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2023, 12:15:37 pm
(Assuming (https://www.xkcd.com/494/) he (https://www.xkcd.com/495/) even (https://www.xkcd.com/496/) wanted (https://www.xkcd.com/497/) to (https://www.xkcd.com/498/)...)
Post by: Egan_BW on May 15, 2023, 12:57:20 pm
He is the founder of two industry shaping companies, SpaceX and Tesla, which is already more than virtually anyone. He is also founder of several other notable companies(including ChatGpts OpenAI) and one of the wealthiest person in the world.don't forget founder of twitter, now! and paypal!
As wealthy person of influence tweeting at time of USA polarization and becoming more right leaning with time, he is also became very unpopular. Probably roughly half the country's hates him with passion and participating in the usual pejorative circle jerk any time his names come up, unable to see anything beside their politics.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2023, 01:24:34 pm
He's not the idea person for crying out loud. Every one of his companies was someone else's idea. He's the guy who provides venture capital. At most he also used to be a PR guy for seeking more investors. I guess he still kind of is, at that, but he has lost a lot of brownie points with his antics from the last ~5+ yearsSo, basically a typical CEO.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 15, 2023, 02:32:58 pm
As wealthy person of influence tweeting at time of USA polarization and becoming more right leaning with time, he is also became very unpopular. Probably roughly half the country's hates him with passion and participating in the usual pejorative circle jerk any time his names come up, unable to see anything beside their politics.
Ironically you could turn this statement around, and say that perhaps his politics have made him inexplicably popular with some crowd who are unable to see anything besides their politics, perhaps blinding them to the point where they think factual inaccuracies like him founding tesla is true?
Post by: jipehog on May 15, 2023, 04:15:11 pm
Such a false dichotomy would work better if we weren't on page 42 of a thread devoted to political inspired mass hysteria about Musk tacking over Twitter, with last two pages people doing their best to nitpick as to why Musk is bad, which pretty much the usual absurd koolaid anytime his name is brought up.As wealthy person of influence tweeting at time of USA polarization and becoming more right leaning with time, he is also became very unpopular. Probably roughly half the country's hates him with passion and participating in the usual pejorative circle jerk any time his names come up, unable to see anything beside their politics.
Ironically you could turn this statement around, and say that perhaps his politics have made him inexplicably popular with some crowd who are unable to see anything besides their politics, perhaps blinding them to the point where they think factual inaccuracies like him founding tesla is true?
p.s. I certainly love SpaceX but say I like Musk or this is about USA politics for me would be factual inaccuracies.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 15, 2023, 04:25:55 pm
p.s. I certainly love SpaceX but say I like Musk or this is about USA politics for me would be factual inaccuracies.
Good thing I didn't say that about you then right? ;)
Post by: hector13 on May 15, 2023, 04:40:48 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 15, 2023, 04:43:00 pm
Such a false dichotomy would work better if we weren't on page 42 of a thread devoted to political inspired mass hysteria about Musk tacking over Twitter, with last two pages people doing their best to nitpick as to why Musk is bad, which pretty much the usual absurd koolaid anytime his name is brought up.As wealthy person of influence tweeting at time of USA polarization and becoming more right leaning with time, he is also became very unpopular. Probably roughly half the country's hates him with passion and participating in the usual pejorative circle jerk any time his names come up, unable to see anything beside their politics.
Ironically you could turn this statement around, and say that perhaps his politics have made him inexplicably popular with some crowd who are unable to see anything besides their politics, perhaps blinding them to the point where they think factual inaccuracies like him founding tesla is true?
p.s. I certainly love SpaceX but say I like Musk or this is about USA politics for me would be factual inaccuracies.
This last page has been specifically people telling you don't know what you're talking about. No politics required, but maybe stop giving head to Musk for things he didn't actually do. Buying something doesn't make you a founder, it makes you an owner.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 15, 2023, 04:46:05 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2023, 05:00:14 pm
Post by: jipehog on May 15, 2023, 05:35:56 pm
Pretty wild, you'd think that with 42 pages of mass hysteria to refute you'd wouldn't resort to saying things that aren't true to make your point.I recommend you double check about that, but even if you believe that to be true, so?
Quote
He is the founderof twoindustry shaping companies, SpaceXand Tesla, which is already more than virtually anyone.
Terrible I know.. lets join the crowd of dear Musk how do I hate thee.. (https://youtu.be/JjaxPd8m6dY?t=25)
Post by: hector13 on May 15, 2023, 05:41:39 pm
Is it hysterical to say Musk would make Twitter worse when he’s actually made Twitter worse (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65246394)?
I think this was at the end of a page so easy to miss.
Is it hysterical when what people were worried about has manifested itself?
Post by: EuchreJack on May 16, 2023, 02:32:58 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 16, 2023, 02:45:19 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 16, 2023, 02:56:40 am
Post by: King Zultan on May 16, 2023, 03:49:48 am
Post by: Cathar on May 16, 2023, 04:29:35 am
Elon Musk says he’s found a woman to lead Twitter as new CEO (https://apnews.com/article/twitter-musk-new-ceo-woman-5e21a5bdace17828f0fd2c627435ad4f)QuoteHe did not name her but said she will be starting in about six weeks.
It is hillarious, actually. First thing she did was to announce she'll reinstate strict content moderation so ad corpos could "get excited about investing", among other blurbs about twitter needing representations. Musk fans are setting themselves ablaze.
The ring is about to close on that absolute circus.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 05:30:08 am
Ah yes. Someone with inherited wealth who used that wealth to buy things other people already did must surely be a genius. I'd rather focus on politics than suck the dicks of the wealthy for their good fortune.This is probably the thing I hate most about capitalism. It creates a world where the only value a person has is their capacity to own things. Not talent, genius, hard work, love, dignity, courage or any other more worthy virtue. Just... Owning things. It makes for a dreary world
Post by: Strongpoint on May 16, 2023, 06:28:59 am
Ah yes. Someone with inherited wealth who used that wealth to buy things other people already did must surely be a genius. I'd rather focus on politics than suck the dicks of the wealthy for their good fortune.This is probably the thing I hate most about capitalism. It creates a world where the only value a person has is their capacity to own things. Not talent, genius, hard work, love, dignity, courage or any other more worthy virtue. Just... Owning things. It makes for a dreary world
It is implied that owning things is the result of having virtues. The problem is that there are routes like inheritance or criminal, harmful activities that also bring ownership.
But what is an alternative? Society in which having virtues brings no rewards?
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 06:37:04 am
It is implied that owning things is the result of having virtues. The problem is that there are routes like inheritance or criminal, harmful activities that also bring ownership.Currently society already chooses not to reward virtues, only ownership. Ownership lets you extract profits from worker labour, from rents, from speculation, from access to cheap credit, insurance, reward schemes and if you get big enough, subsidies and bailouts. The alternative would be one simply where capital is awarded efficiently, e.g. the old system where money was loaned to businesses and not just loaned to the already superwealthy
But what is an alternative? Society in which having virtues brings no rewards?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 16, 2023, 07:14:11 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 09:02:17 am
Traditional Nahua theocracy is the best form of goverment. It is known.Agnostic conspiracy is the best form of government. The system of government wherein the people presume the government exists but do not have any evidence to suggest the government exists (though it does exist in secret)
Post by: EuchreJack on May 16, 2023, 06:06:04 pm
Next thing you know, they'll be talking about the Golden Boards...
Post by: hector13 on May 16, 2023, 06:44:46 pm
CONSPIRACY OF THE LIZARD PEOPLE TRYING TO TAKE US OVER.
Post by: jipehog on May 16, 2023, 10:15:32 pm
Tucker carlson is going to relaunch on Twitter, I doubt anything can top that.. And i'd wait to see the final print on 'strict content moderation' I assume their goal would be to control images posted after the recent shooting not blip Tuckers whole showElon Musk says he’s found a woman to lead Twitter as new CEO (https://apnews.com/article/twitter-musk-new-ceo-woman-5e21a5bdace17828f0fd2c627435ad4f)QuoteHe did not name her but said she will be starting in about six weeks.
It is hillarious, actually. First thing she did was to announce she'll reinstate strict content moderation so ad corpos could "get excited about investing", among other blurbs about twitter needing representations. Musk fans are setting themselves ablaze.
Post by: King Zultan on May 17, 2023, 04:03:54 am
Post by: Cathar on May 17, 2023, 04:10:13 am
Tucker carlson is going to relaunch on Twitter, I doubt anything can top that.. And i'd wait to see the final print on 'strict content moderation' I assume their goal would be to control images posted after the recent shooting not blip Tuckers whole showIt is likely to be genuine. Content moderation is not made to appeal to the public, but to the announcers who fled the platform at the switch of governance (the whole "now you have to pay $8 a month for the blue tick" and the "we're firing literally half the staff" has to be understood in that context).
This is an extremely awkward 180 degree turn, that off course goes against the very principle under which the buyout was initiated. You know the "twitter is the new public square" the "I don't care about the economics" and the "Im a free speech absolutist".
Of course, feel free to check te page 1 of this very thread to check who is this handsome blue avatar profile who saw that coming the moment it started.
Post by: Frumple on May 17, 2023, 07:29:07 am
Post by: Cathar on May 17, 2023, 08:25:02 am
There's been multiple reported cases of high level politicians and outright governments putting out some variation on "unfuck this mess you made or we're going to do it for you" over the last while.I didn't thought of that but there's something really cathartic in that realisation. All of these panic-changes are going to be a further mess, but I for one am happy to see that monster suffer and die.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 17, 2023, 11:16:09 am
Post by: nenjin on May 17, 2023, 01:15:26 pm
Remember: The owner of Twitter is forbidden from commenting on Tesla without first getting his legal department's approval.
His genius is such that legal needs to experience it first.
Post by: King Zultan on May 18, 2023, 04:34:23 am
Post by: Strongpoint on May 19, 2023, 06:44:36 am
Yay! Knowing how "well" Elon's Twitter moderates content, I expect a flood of pirated content followed by lawsuits. Oh. And pedo porn. A lot of pedo porn
Post by: jipehog on May 19, 2023, 07:55:46 am
Tucker carlson is going to relaunch on Twitter, I doubt anything can top that.. And i'd wait to see the final print on 'strict content moderation' I assume their goal would be to control images posted after the recent shooting not blip Tuckers whole showIt is likely to be genuine. Content moderation is not made to appeal to the public, but to the announcers who fled the platform at the switch of governance (the whole "now you have to pay $8 a month for the blue tick" and the "we're firing literally half the staff" has to be understood in that context).
This is an extremely awkward 180 degree turn, that off course goes against the very principle under which the buyout was initiated. You know the "twitter is the new public square" the "I don't care about the economics" and the "Im a free speech absolutist".
Content moderation is very vague term. To say that Musk who is working on 'anti-woke' ChatGPT and will give Tucker carlson stage is doing 180 degree seem like wishful thinking. Worse its not Tucker but influx of his sort and conservative-leaning parody\humor that should worry you..
Otherwise, all the assessments about its operations seem to me like fluff, nothing but an extension USA political political discourse. Twitter will be going through a rough patch during adjustment period, but its not going anywhere.
Post by: Frumple on May 19, 2023, 08:08:08 am
So, now Musk wants to turn Twitter into a VKontakte by giving "verified" users the ability to upload 2-hour-long videos.I mean, that's actively happening now, yes. The pirated content, the lawsuits, and the spike in CSAM on the platform.
Yay! Knowing how "well" Elon's Twitter moderates content, I expect a flood of pirated content followed by lawsuits. Oh. And pedo porn. A lot of pedo porn
... far as I can recall that all happened even before the longer form videos started getting allowed, though, somewhere in the wake of the dumbshit firing most of the moderation staff. Actions have consequences sometimes, weird how that works :V
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2023, 09:30:16 am
The whole reason Government Officials use it to communicate is because it's free. They're not gonna pay to use it.
Frankly, nobody is going to pay to use it. Never in the history of the Internet has the business plan of taking something available for free and charging for it worked.
... except for Dwarf Fortress, but they added graphics, so it doesn't count. :P
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 19, 2023, 09:58:33 am
Post by: jipehog on May 19, 2023, 10:21:11 am
If Twitter stops being free, it's gone.USA politicians spend exuberant sums on public relations, we are talking million even billions, 8$ is not going to put them off..
The whole reason Government Officials use it to communicate is because it's free. They're not gonna pay to use it.
Frankly, nobody is going to pay to use it. Never in the history of the Internet has the business plan of taking something available for free and charging for it worked.
Otherwise, another constant in internet history was porn, piracy, shit content etc and its moderation, compared to that the war on drugs is a success. One of the good things about subscription model (along with "F2P") is that it provides a source of identification helping authorities track and raise operation cost of nefarious actors who often operate tens of thousands of accounts. That coupled with language modules and AI in general can be instrumental in content moderations.
But it is possible that this isn't going to work, there are hundreds of ventures from big companies that have flopped and move on, so what? How many times Microsoft failed.. extreme risk aversion leads to stagnation and boring life. If he is willing to waste a fortune that is equal to over third of the world countries annual GDP, I say go for it.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2023, 10:27:05 am
Please share more of your ignorance
Money spent must be tracked and allocated
I wasn't talking about Twitter as a campaign tool, but rather as a PSA system that has been used by Government Officials.
They can not use their campaign funds to do their job on Twitter. They instead have to get authorization to spend the money on Twitter. Which means they won't. Which means they will stop using Twitter.
Post by: jipehog on May 19, 2023, 10:35:53 am
Meanwhile Trump is coming back to Twitter and I will be watching what Moloch will conjure.. this polarization is self feeding..
Post by: hector13 on May 19, 2023, 10:44:40 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2023, 01:50:22 pm
Maybe. Over here every politician gets funding for public relations to maintain contact with its voters which may include anything from office supplies to events to subscriptions. Regardless, I still doubt 8$ would be an issue..Yeah, you really don't get how anal retentive we are about money in the States. It's probably why we broke off from you.
Post by: jipehog on May 19, 2023, 06:54:14 pm
Edit: In a year+ time we will see which prediction turned out to be closer to the truth.
Post by: Frumple on May 19, 2023, 07:31:37 pm
Post by: King Zultan on May 20, 2023, 02:25:06 am
Post by: Starver on May 20, 2023, 07:23:59 am
[Just deleted a dozen rambling paragraphs, and several fetenete! It means I'm not showing my 'working', but it's a subjective assessment anyway. You can equally disagree with the conclusion with or without all this lot.]
...so if everyone is as typical as me (
Having become something of a "meeting on the village common" sort of place, but globally, it has actually managed to get beyond "too big to fail" into potentially "too big to succeed" territory. Under the current model, anyway. Perhaps it could be retransformed into a global common-good [in now deleted paragraphs, I mentioned Usenet; though not in this new context of how it might organisationally/infrastructually be managed]... But, if not, it's surely going to lose out to the Next Big Thing™ in a "morph or die" manner. But not morph in any Musk-compatible way, if I'm any judge. He has the wrong mindset for this challenge. ((All hail Emperor Elon! Honestly, sire, and please believe me when I say this entire post is a joke. Using it against me in my future trial of Retroactive Sedition against Your Supreme Lordship's beneficient rule over the Peoples of both Earth and Mars is truly not worth troubling Yourself over, and I have never been a servant of the Arch-Fiend Bezos. Well, apart from buying one or two or a hundred things from Amazon in the era before Prime, but I didn't know that'd eventually lead to him building his own rockets and landers and eventually carving the Amazon 'Smile' across the face of the Moon, thus insulting Your Serene Empire on a near-daily basis for many days of each month.))
Post by: jipehog on May 20, 2023, 02:57:27 pm
With Twitter couple hundred million monthly active users, I bet that overwhelming majority don't have many followers, their chance to get to the top trending are unchanged.
Will it work? I have no idea. If I knew such stuff I would be on the shark tank trying to make millions rather than commenting online ;)
Post by: jipehog on May 24, 2023, 04:39:01 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/23/ron-desantis-2024-republican-president-campaign
yes, lets moloch reign :P
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2023, 11:56:04 am
https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/02/meta-found-liable-as-court-blocks-firing-of-moderators/amp/ (https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/02/meta-found-liable-as-court-blocks-firing-of-moderators/amp/)
Post by: jipehog on June 03, 2023, 01:48:31 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 03, 2023, 02:14:43 pm
TikTok as well.
Post by: jipehog on June 03, 2023, 02:26:53 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 04, 2023, 12:04:16 am
Post by: scriver on June 04, 2023, 02:54:22 am
Post by: Duuvian on June 04, 2023, 04:48:06 am
For example, from the article linked:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I haven't looked into the details of any of these cases, but on principle and in my ignorance I would lean towards favoring against Meta in the first spoilered paragraph. However in the second, while the victims of this wrong are extremely sympathetic, siding against the corporation in this case actually weakens the public's ability to comment upon current events if the result were to carry a broad scope (without knowing the details of the case but on it's overlapping subject of internet freedoms; perhaps the suit is particularly well-crafted and would avoid ancilliary concerns but usually this is not the route lawyers in these cases seem to tend to take). For an example that I just made up and didn't spend much time on, early on in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars criticism of the wars in the US was deeply frowned upon. If such critics could be placed through public opinion molding campaigns and policy into such a criteria that they are to blame for the conflict not being the promised swift and easy victory; could such critic's views at that time be penalized through this while ardent supporters of the conflict are not or even be elevated despite being in error? Of course, this is an example of the most extreme sort and I have spoken in ignorance of the case at hand. However the overlapping subject again suggests that should decisions in a case like these be broadly applicable that it will be applied in controversies of a nature far less extreme than a state of war or conflict as well, such as various culture warrior goofballeries.
Post by: lemon10 on June 04, 2023, 05:40:57 am
Quote
Facebook owner Meta’s dangerous algorithms and reckless pursuit of profit substantially contributed to the atrocities perpetrated by the Myanmar military against the Rohingya people in 2017, Amnesty International said in a new report published today.Facebook is kinda shit and actively to blame in cases like this.
The Social Atrocity: Meta and the right to remedy for the Rohingya, details how Meta knew or should have known that Facebook’s algorithmic systems were supercharging the spread of harmful anti-Rohingya content in Myanmar, but the company still failed to act.
“In 2017, the Rohingya were killed, tortured, raped, and displaced in the thousands as part of the Myanmar security forces’ campaign of ethnic cleansing. In the months and years leading up to the atrocities, Facebook’s algorithms were intensifying a storm of hatred against the Rohingya which contributed to real-world violence,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.
---
Your general point isn't wrong, but Facebook is the very picture of a scumbag corporation that doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt in anything.
Post by: sofanthiel on June 04, 2023, 09:21:41 am
Post by: lemon10 on July 01, 2023, 06:43:24 pm
The website is now limiting the number of posts all viewers can read. (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna92188) Even people paying him have a limit they can totally reach in a single day.
And as part of a different thing they just did you need to login to a twitter account to read anything there at all and those users get to read only a few hundred tweets a day.
So people not in the ecosystem will no longer be exposed to twitter and even people within it are going to start leaving as its rate limiting them and go find other stuff to do instead.
This feels completely insane from a business standpoint. Is twitter truly so close to collapse?
Post by: Grim Portent on July 01, 2023, 06:55:30 pm
Post by: Starver on July 01, 2023, 06:58:01 pm
I can sympathise with them needing to put off excessive scrapers because of server capacities, but it rather dents the business model that everyone has come to expect. And even if the immediate lower-limit is going to raise later, it makes everyone appreciate (again!) how beholden everybody is to the "(mal/ben)evolant dictator" du jour for their social media provider...
[1] i.e. that if anybody posts a "something has happened, see <url=twitter>here</url> for someone's opinion on it!" message, then I'm not now going to ever see that.
Post by: Telgin on July 01, 2023, 07:15:12 pm
So, still comical and terrible, but at least the motivation doesn't sound quite as brain dead.
Post by: Frumple on July 01, 2023, 07:22:13 pm
It's worth noting, google was due to cancel cloud services because of non-payment, well. Yesterday/today. There's reporting some sort of deal was made to continue functionality on that front, but this whole mess looks a lot like their hosting services (quite possibly involving more companies than just google) decided they were tired of musk's shit and stopped providing, with twitter's reaction being to drastically cut traffic in a very short period to keep their in-house stuff from buckling entirely.
... though do note, the uptick in scraping is largely self-inflicted due to twitter playing fuck-fuck games with API access and such. The issue* was manageable before the management in question decided to intentionally screw the pooch.
* To the extent it actually was one, mind; it's a big claim to say one of the biggest social media websites in the world was being meaningfully impacted in regards to server capability by what scraping efforts existed, and one of the only sources making that claim is, well. Twitter. Currently lead by a prolific liar, one known for doing things like not paying their bills and firing a great deal of what staff might have been able to navigate the problem, heh. It's more likely server capability's been kneecapped by poor admin decisions than anything related to scraping.
Post by: eerr on July 01, 2023, 07:49:25 pm
So did elon musk kill twitter, or did he give it a just death?
Post by: Frumple on July 01, 2023, 08:09:19 pm
The way things are right now is just outright nonfunctional for the vast majority of the users, they ain't gon' stick around.
Post by: eerr on July 01, 2023, 08:10:23 pm
His actions might just be power moves, to sus out who is going to stick with him on his long journey to that crabcake.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/twitter-dead-x-corp-now-131200978.html
Post by: Strongpoint on July 01, 2023, 11:27:48 pm
Post by: scriver on July 02, 2023, 01:57:06 am
All I'm hearing, is 'ding dong twitter is dead'
So did elon musk kill twitter, or did he give it a just death?
When the knight who slew the beast turned out to be a really shitty knight
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 02:11:39 am
This feels completely insane from a business standpoint. Is twitter truly so close to collapse?According to the website the daily limit is in the range of 10k for verified users, 1000 for unverified and 500 for new unverified
How many twittes do you read a day? and have you ever read more than 500 twittes a day?
Essentially they are limiting ability to data mine, same thing many other services do, same reason the idiots on reddit doing blackouts.
Post by: King Zultan on July 02, 2023, 02:23:16 am
Also I don't care what it does as long as it dies.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 02, 2023, 02:26:57 am
Twitter was my main way to get news from all over the world quickly. It is unusable for this now.Same here. I also used it to track scientific conferences
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 02:32:51 am
I think it's just the fact that there's a limit at all that people are pissed aboutif its rate limit that doesn't affect you then this is just an excuse to be pissed..
There is a similar thing with reddit, some subs decided todo annoying blackouts but it seem that they are over it, or at least I am going to be over the subs that isn't.
Post by: King Zultan on July 02, 2023, 02:48:58 am
I've noticed that a lot of people these days don't need much of a reason to get pissed off about something.I think it's just the fact that there's a limit at all that people are pissed aboutif its rate limit that doesn't affect you then this is just an excuse to be pissed..
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 03:00:32 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 02, 2023, 03:16:49 am
This feels completely insane from a business standpoint. Is twitter truly so close to collapse?How many twittes do you read a day? and have you ever read more than 500 twittes a day?
I get like 100 new per hour in my feed alone, WAY more if there is something important happening. That is without opening a twitt to read responses. That is without searches including just clicking on trends. And it is without ever looking in that stupid "for you" timeline that shows you the same messages again, and again, and again.
Hey, opening one Musk's (or any other popular) twitt will likely kill your daily limit.
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 04:20:05 am
This would affect spammers and teenagers who spend all day online who might choose to go to.. tiktok? instead. Meanwhile professionals might choose to spend the few bucks a month.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 02, 2023, 04:59:23 am
Hopefully as heavy user you have an account, so roughly you can enjoy 10 hours a day of twitter feed.. sounds pretty good to me, but I am sure they will be tweaking this rollout for the edge cases.
This would affect spammers and teenagers who spend all day online who might choose to go to.. tiktok? instead. Meanwhile professionals might choose to spend the few bucks a month.
No, I am not a heavy user. Not even close. And no, there are no 10 hours because normal use includes much more than scrolling through your timeline. It is also not twitts, it is requests and it is extremely vague what requests mean. Getting a displayed message is one of those requests (fun fact - advertisements COUNT) but there are many more types of requests. Like browser\app checking if there are updates
Those limitations are ridiculous and, if not lifted soon, will be the end of Twitter.
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 05:20:13 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 02, 2023, 05:39:14 am
Let me rephrase, this isn't affecting me, and I suspect it does/would not affect most people.
And how do you use Twitter then?
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 02, 2023, 06:08:07 am
Post by: Frumple on July 02, 2023, 07:23:51 am
Let me rephrase, this isn't affecting me, and I suspect it does/would not affect most people.That'd be really unusual, because it's been hitting a ton of people really hard since it started. The specific implementation is so shit folks are hitting the rate limit sometimes in minutes, just in the process of normal usage. If you're actually able to browse for any particular length of time, you're either going extremely slowly or somehow managing to stick to tweets that have almost no replies to them.
Post by: Starver on July 02, 2023, 11:23:56 am
According to the website the daily limit is in the range of 10k for verified users, 1000 for unverified and 500 for new unverifiedBack in the days of being entertained/horrified by the post of a certain 'leader', I could easily read more than that in a single scroll (in fact, giving up on scrolling, but knowing that the page had loaded(/was cued up to load (https://xkcd.com/1309/)) many more. Never mind checking on any mildly-nested tweet that looked interesting and had replies (or looked like it might have interesting replies).
How many twittes do you read a day? and have you ever read more than 500 twittes a day?
Now, I've no idea how it looks to an actual account-holder (and, e.g. via the App), but it seems to me that it doesn't take much effort to scroll through 10k tweets (perhaps skimming and scanning for the pearls amongst swine; or even the more pearly swine). And quarter of an hour concentrated 'one a second' skimming isn't totally unexpected for an experienced (not-new) unverified user, surely. (Or half an hour of wallowing around and two seconds each puts you at 90% of the quota.)
As a no-account reader, though, I'm glad that I mostly don't rely on tweets. Maybe it'd pursuade me to register (and suffer the 500 limit) if I was keeping an eye on Highways Agency notifications (from which I'd need to mind-filter out all those that don't pertain to any roads I'm not using) or had a reason to follow the progress of a sponsored charity event or had an extensive schedule of space-mission reportages to keep up-to-date with. Or just was rather used to perusing various "Joke/Word/Recipe/Puzzle/Fact Of The Day" sources.
Luckily, I tend to know self-published resources for any of those things. Not as handy, perhaps, as a centralised Tweet-access point, and I also find anywhere that has "follow us on Facebook for more details" to be just as awkward because of the 'facebook enveloping' (javascript cruft/etc) and especially when it's not visible at all for unregistered (thus 'non-friended') access. But you just know that others will be excessively hurt (at least in their psyche) either by being unable to continue with their prior habits or by losing any effective-followership due to hard decisions by those followers as far as self-rationing is concerned. (Or not sufficiently restraining themselves then hitting the hard-limit.)
It almost looks like a broken attempt to promote the "blue-tick-4-money" service, except that I think we've already established that it's a broken attempt to get around more technical (B2B) issues. Either way, I imagine some will now 'upgrade' (almost three hours now possible of rapid tweet-skimming, for the truly devoted/addicted), but I think it'll put off some who were maybe thinking of doing so, seeing how a bit of server-side wankery can render even 'premium' users disadvantaged quite a bit...
Post by: Rolan7 on July 02, 2023, 12:20:58 pm
I was using it for important news from a few people but they were always posting less-awful places. The fun content-bots like egg_irl mostly disappeared months ago with the API changes (sounds familiar) and they were mostly reposting from Reddit anyway.
It's so over, and good riddance!
Two days ago I got an update on a report I made on an "incelbund" who kept using the n-word with a 1 and other abbreviations, saying completely explicit white-supremacist things. I think he caught my eye for telling trans people in general to kill ourselves, but it's "weird" how many transphobes are vehement racists too. I made the report two weeks ago, and the update was "we're looking into it and considering context".
cuz they fired pretty much the whole moderation team ages ago
It's a dead platform yo
Post by: Great Order on July 02, 2023, 12:41:56 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 02, 2023, 12:59:11 pm
I *get* that letting Discord etc scrape from Twitter is a burden on the servers (whether they have all their servers now or not). But it was what enticed me on to Twitter. The model is for interesting people to post, those posts to get shared, and that brings people to the site and the app to view ads. or pay I guess
Cutting expenses is a really bad sign when those expenses were crucial to revenue. Much like Reddit, I'd guess that most Twitter revenue came from non-users or casual users. Keyboard warrior reply-people (me and my foes) weren't the reliable income. The dumbasses who subscribed weren't either.
It was the ubiquity as a platform for extra-fresh news and diverse commentary (good and bad). And that was already dead, but now it's thoroughly axed up.
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 01:32:26 pm
There are always people online affected, I haven't encountered any issues, have you?Let me rephrase, this isn't affecting me, and I suspect it does/would not affect most people.That'd be really unusual, because it's been hitting a ton of people really hard since it started. The specific implementation is so shit folks are hitting the rate limit sometimes in minutes, just in the process of normal usage.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 02, 2023, 01:35:59 pm
What a transparent argument though :P Sorry friend, Elon's check isn't going to cash.
Post by: Frumple on July 02, 2023, 03:28:12 pm
There are always people online affected, I haven't encountered any issues, have you?Embeds ("cannot connect") and the entire site ("something has gone wrong!") was utterly broken for me all of yesterday, and I haven't bothered to even try today, so yes, there's been issues for me specifically ::)
Post by: Egan_BW on July 02, 2023, 04:04:04 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 02, 2023, 04:28:00 pm
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 05:04:24 pm
I do know that Musk stated plan is to turn into a superapp X in a few years. That becoming a payments processor has a lot of potential income.. and that this will also allow an alternative method to verify users. I also know that there are people who like to bitch about anything involving Musk.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 02, 2023, 05:17:53 pm
I don't understand his business model and how the recent temporary change plays into that? not I have any inkling of the data\trends invovled.
I do know that Musk stated plan is to turn into a superapp X in a few years. That becoming a payments processor has a lot of potential income.. and that this will also allow an alternative method to verify users. I also know that there are people who like to bitch about anything involving Musk.
Twitter is making most of its money from advertisements and it will be the case for many years to come. That silly Twitter Blue thing is a drop in the bucket. And all those future potential plans are... typical potential Musk's future plans aka empty hype.
He promised stuff like fully autonomous cars in 2019 with claims like millions of robotaxis on the roads. Most Musk's promises either never materialize into anything or arrive many years later than promised.
_______________
I am planning to jump the ship as soon as Blue Sky will go into a public beta. After all, there are basic dignity.
Post by: jipehog on July 02, 2023, 05:42:01 pm
Twitter is making most of its money from advertisements and it will be the case for many years to come.What is the data/trend there in light of the competition and what is the income potential from becoming a payments processor?
That silly Twitter Blue thing is a drop in the bucket.I think that the reason for this and other measure is to increase number of users. People who use twitter for more than just host stuff and quick embed (didn't we see some problem with imgur recently)
He promised stuff like fully autonomous cars in 2019 with claims like millions of robotaxis on the roads.I would argue that hype is part of the job description for many of these multi national execs, you could get hang up on that like most people who kneejerk to Musk anything or give credit to Tesla contribution to EV race in USA and move on
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2023, 05:59:55 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2023, 09:05:57 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 02, 2023, 10:30:39 pm
What is the data/trend there in light of the competition and what is the income potential from becoming a payments processor?
What data exactly are you looking for? A quick google search has lead me to info implying that 90% of twitters revenue comes from advertisements, and I'd argue that even the services that are the other 10% are based on selling some form of access to its common users, the ones displaced from this change.
"what is the income potential from becoming a payments processor?" How is that relevant? Twitter isn't one, Musks ambitions can be great or stupid, but it seems irrelevant, why would he need to destroy twitters current revenues to make this a reality? And if it is necessary, why wouldn't he wait until he was actually making that switch successfully to do it?
I think that the reason for this and other measure is to increase number of users.
How is making people unable to use a service going to increase the number of users of that service?
I would argue that hype is part of the job description for many of these multi national execs,
This isn't really important, but that can be the role such a person could take self evidently, but considering how many people he's turned against him, I'd question if he's even doing a good job at that, if that is his appointed role in his companies. It's only anecdotal but most people I know who have or want electric cars are the people who are most opposed to Elons brand of politics, and his coming out as a right wing sorta nutcase over the last few years has completed soured them on Teslas and made them get or move their considerations over to other brands. I'm sure he's gained fans in certain audiences, but do they buy electric cars at a rate high enough to offset the negative effects he is having? Serious question that, I have no idea, but I do find it doubtful.
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2023, 10:58:34 pm
Pretty sure Musk has also been fined by the SEC for that, too.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 02, 2023, 11:49:56 pm
On CEOs being glorified hype guys, Elizabeth Holmes was imprisoned for that.
Trevor Milton is another good example. I fail to understand why lies about Nicola truck are fraud, while lies about Tesla truck or Tesla autopilot are not.
Post by: jipehog on July 03, 2023, 02:10:29 am
I am implying that the doomsday predication about reddit business model may be based on its new owners politics rather than knowledge and understanding of its business model. I would suggest starting with whether its profitable
Recently reddit was among those who also added API use limit and monetization, which resulted in a community hype train to go dark. Lets just say that I was glad reddit didn't back down. I didn't think that my opinion of reddit mods could be lower but seeing their self important comments made it so.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 03, 2023, 04:57:26 am
Post by: jipehog on July 03, 2023, 05:50:31 am
Naturally, your regular joe users just want their free stuff and get really upset when things change, but that is nature business. Right now everyone seem be monetizing api access, we will see how it works out once we past the birthing pains and "community" whining. Speaking of, I think that for Musk pander to the "community" in the current climate is loosing game, and I love the "troll" :P auto response to media inquiries right now.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 03, 2023, 06:35:39 am
Quote
Naturally, your regular joe users just want their free stuff and get really upset when things change, but that is nature business.
I, just like others, pay Twitter by viewing ads and other types of promoted posts, providing content created by me, and giving away some of my personal info. What you say is misleading. There is no free stuff in relationships between Twitter and its users. Do not pretend that we have a "benevolent company" and "parasites" situation. The funniest part, by introducing this "rate limit", Twitter makes it harder for me to pay them, preventing me from doing the aforementioned things.
And yes, customers are disappointed when the quality of a provided service goes down. And nature of business is that you respectfully communicate with your user base and explain why the quality went down.
Post by: lemon10 on July 03, 2023, 07:10:48 pm
Yeah, le twits is le dead.
Musk might be able to salvage its corpse though and turn it into a payment processer. Doubt it though, building on the foundation of twitter now is a bad move.
I assume you have realized that Twitter isn't profitable and hasn't been in for couple of years, same things with reddit. Otherwise the difference is that I see a lot of the same people who dog pile on anything musk related making strong worded assertions about something they clearly didn't seem to had full knowledge of. Meanwhile I have no problem saying that I don't know, but most of the prediction I see seem like political inspired hottakes that ignore circumstances and future plans.Musk has been a complete failure at twitter lol.
Day 0 he took a company with a ~200 million/year deficit and a billion cash reserves and instantly turned it into one that owed 12 billion dollars with interest of ~1.2 billion a year.
And that's just day 0, he did all kinds of other really stupid shit after that that really haven't helped.
Post by: scriver on July 04, 2023, 03:09:04 am
Post by: King Zultan on July 04, 2023, 06:02:34 am
Post by: Frumple on July 04, 2023, 06:44:10 am
I am planning to jump the ship as soon as Blue Sky will go into a public beta. After all, there are basic dignity.From a couple days ago, but from what I've been seeing I'd probably suggest really strongly to not. Bluesky's run by the same kind of nut techbro libertarian as musk (Dorsey, who's on their board and heavily involved in decision making and design literally helped found twitter, and has gone pretty full freeze peach crazy over the years), and is currently having some pretty incredibly concerning things going on regarding how it handles stuff like child pornography.
There's no dignity in that particular platform, to all appearances. Unless there's some serious changes there's no indication the current owners are interested in making, it's going to release in the state of "8chan-tier cesspool" :-\
Post by: Strongpoint on July 04, 2023, 07:41:34 am
There's no dignity in that particular platform, to all appearances. Unless there's some serious changes there's no indication the current owners are interested in making, it's going to release in the state of "8chan-tier cesspool" :-\
I am fine with navigating cesspools. Besides, I'll be moving after people I am already subscribed to many of whom announced that they plan to go to Blue Sky
Also, I don't care much about the political views of owners. I want some basic standards of moderation (not like Facebook for example, I am not touching Threads for that reason) and stuff working without too many random technical problems.
Post by: Frumple on July 04, 2023, 08:30:00 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 04, 2023, 10:05:55 am
... the point trying to be made is you're not going to get basic standards of moderation out of bluesky. The political inclinations of the admin/owners is expressly opposed to basic standards of moderation, and they've gone out of their way to make it clear that's informing and going to inform how they handle the platform.
Oh. I see what you mean. Overmoderation worries me way more than undermoderation. As I said I am thickskinned enough to navigate cesspools
Post by: Robsoie on July 04, 2023, 06:22:34 pm
Spoiler: fortunately ancient twitter wisdom like this one can probably be archived (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on July 04, 2023, 06:24:28 pm
Let's just stop a moment and hate Google too for acting that way though(https://preview.redd.it/zjtesex5sz9b1.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=d43724966f0f998c81570a8cc4f040ce0608b40e)
So apparently it wasn't actually google deciding to do anything, its just a natural result of what happens when you make it impossible for google's bots to actually navigate your website.
Which is pretty big time incompetence, but if you fire like 75% of your programmers (and 75% of everyone else as well) and the best of the rest flee your business cause you might fire them any instant results like this are something that just happens sometimes.
Post by: hector13 on July 04, 2023, 07:13:28 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on July 04, 2023, 10:02:54 pm
Let's just stop a moment and hate Google too for acting that way though(https://preview.redd.it/zjtesex5sz9b1.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=d43724966f0f998c81570a8cc4f040ce0608b40e)
So apparently it wasn't actually google deciding to do anything, its just a natural result of what happens when you make it impossible for google's bots to actually navigate your website.
Which is pretty big time incompetence, but if you fire like 75% of your programmers (and 75% of everyone else as well) and the best of the rest flee your business cause you might fire them any instant results like this are something that just happens sometimes.
I suspect that it is not incompetence but a childish tantrum and the result of a direct Musk's order to "hurt Google" and deny them profits for accessing "HIS" content for free.
Post by: heydude6 on July 05, 2023, 01:41:12 am
This most likely happened because Musk didn't code an exception in the ban for google, cause he didn't think he needed to code an exception for anything. Incompetence is a sufficient explanation. No extra Malice required.
Post by: King Zultan on July 05, 2023, 02:43:44 am
Also I never could figure out why twitter crap shows up as a google search especially when it had nothing to do with what I typed in.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 05, 2023, 04:33:02 pm
This whole thing has been a massive train wreck in motion the entire time, I wonder when it will finally come to a stop?
I am afraid that Twitter is simply too gargantuan to stop rolling down the mountain. Elon is too rich. Twitter is too influential. Stakes are high.
Though it would be incredible to see it all go down at once and witness the cyber world turn into chaos as millions of refugees swarm out of thr blue birds corpse and Twitterise everywhere they touch.
Post by: McTraveller on July 05, 2023, 05:08:13 pm
(Also, who names this stuff?)
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 05, 2023, 05:17:32 pm
Regarding Threads: Why would people leave Twitter and go to Meta, of all places?
(Also, who names this stuff?)
Because people dumb.
CockZuckerberg names them all.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 05, 2023, 11:11:11 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on July 06, 2023, 02:30:21 am
Regarding Threads: Why would people leave Twitter and go to Meta, of all places?
(Also, who names this stuff?)
Twitter with no tits won't work.
Post by: King Zultan on July 06, 2023, 02:51:10 am
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2023, 02:57:32 am
(Also, who names this stuff?)...someone (like me[1]) who remembers the good old days of t(hreaded)rn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rn_(newsreader))...
But who doesn't remember the bad old days of imminent nuclear attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads_(1984_film)), of course.
[1] But not me. Or at least I haven't been paid for having the idea.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 06, 2023, 03:27:35 am
But I was under the impression that showing tits on twitter had been banned a long time ago.
Nope. As long as it is not actual pornography or non-consensual nudity and is marked as sensitive content (for which users need to opt in the settings to see), it is fine. Light erotica often goes even without being marked as sensitive content and people aren't getting banned for it.
It is so common, that I regularly get random tits retweeted by people I follow for different reasons and I am opted in because gory war news requires access to sensitive content.
On Meta nipple = ban
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2023, 04:29:15 am
Spoiler: Tits.. (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Nipple... (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Different nipples..! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on July 06, 2023, 05:47:58 am
I am afraid that Twitter is simply too gargantuan to stop rolling down the mountain. Elon is too rich. Twitter is too influential. Stakes are high.
There was a bit of a conversation about this already, but to reiterate, I certainly felt the same way. That twitter could stagger forward off momentum, people too committed to it to swap even as it gets worse and worse and they SHOULD move, they won't because of the time and effort invested in it and how hard it'd be too move. But these latest changes are honestly so bad that I think it can actually die, this just isn't making twitter worse, this is making twitter unusable. New people or people without accounts can't use it without making accounts, quite a hurdle to bypass sight unseen, linking to twitter from outside twitter is now much less useful, content creators can't grow their audiences, at least nearly so easily, and even people already using twitter are seeing their access to it limited, there's going to be immediate negative impacts in twitters revenue and long term twitter just isn't going to be viable as a growing platform for anyone who'd want to use it. I do think that if these changes aren't reversed, we're likely seeing the end of twitter. I'm not sure what will replace them, but the bar is pretty low right now to be the service that does.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 06, 2023, 06:02:15 am
I hope you are right. I hate twatter and I want to see it gone.
Post by: lemon10 on July 06, 2023, 01:20:01 pm
Agreed, a major corporation can keep shambling on a long time past dead just on inertia, especially if they have money backing them up. But the witching hour is up, twitter as a social media platform is dead. It might twitch a few more times for brief periods, but still, its dead.I am afraid that Twitter is simply too gargantuan to stop rolling down the mountain. Elon is too rich. Twitter is too influential. Stakes are high.
There was a bit of a conversation about this already, but to reiterate, I certainly felt the same way. That twitter could stagger forward off momentum, people too committed to it to swap even as it gets worse and worse and they SHOULD move, they won't because of the time and effort invested in it and how hard it'd be too move. But these latest changes are honestly so bad that I think it can actually die, this just isn't making twitter worse, this is making twitter unusable. New people or people without accounts can't use it without making accounts, quite a hurdle to bypass sight unseen, linking to twitter from outside twitter is now much less useful, content creators can't grow their audiences, at least nearly so easily, and even people already using twitter are seeing their access to it limited, there's going to be immediate negative impacts in twitters revenue and long term twitter just isn't going to be viable as a growing platform for anyone who'd want to use it. I do think that if these changes aren't reversed, we're likely seeing the end of twitter. I'm not sure what will replace them, but the bar is pretty low right now to be the service that does.
*If* Musk had been truly willing to back twitter with his money then it would be fine and healthy now (and note that he can still save Twitter if he thinks its worth it). But he isn't willing to pour more money into it.
Its a sound financial choice (re: sunk cost fallacy) not to pump twenty billion more dollars into twitter especially after he basically kneecapped it, and its almost certainly one that means that twitter in its current form is dead. Maybe something truly new will rise out of the ashes but... (squints at 12.5 billion dollar debt, and smoldering ruins of a company) it would probably be smarter for Musk to just start a new company if he really wants X.
Post by: brewer bob on July 06, 2023, 01:33:50 pm
Spoiler: Tits.. (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Nipple... (click to show/hide)...because someone had to. We were all thinking of them. And at least I didn't include Ant'n'Dec...Spoiler: Different nipples..! (click to show/hide)
You forgot one:
Spoiler: boobies (click to show/hide)
They're my favorite.
Post by: hector13 on July 06, 2023, 01:52:04 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on July 06, 2023, 02:35:17 pm
In a letter to CEO Mark Zuckerberg published by Semafor, a lawyer for Twitter said the company “has serious concerns that Meta Platforms (Meta) has engaged in systematic, willful and unlawful misappropriation of Twitter’s trade secrets and other intellectual property”.
*grabs popcorn*
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 06, 2023, 02:37:42 pm
I don't exactly know why I want it gone. But I think it boils down to the primal appeal of "big thing go KABOOM".
And I really wanna see the twatter refugees destroy Reddit, even though they will probably go to Tumblr.
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2023, 03:06:29 pm
Spoiler: Bazookas (click to show/hide)
(Either to continue that particular side-thread, or to symbolise the now open conflict between short-messaging-format platforms.)
Post by: Telgin on July 06, 2023, 03:41:31 pm
I guess it also helps that I've never used Twitter, so I've literally lost nothing.
I feel bad for Twitter's employees though. I'm sure many have found other employment by now, but Musk essentially kicked in the door and lit everything on fire for a lot of people.
Post by: Frumple on July 06, 2023, 04:41:32 pm
I guess it also helps that I've never used Twitter, so I've literally lost nothing.Eh... if you have much appreciation for artwork, you're probably in the process of losing things. If there's one actually bad thing about twitter repeatedly shanking itself in the dick, it's that unfortunately a lot of modern professional creative work has been reliant on it for networking and business (commissions, etc.), and its problems are causing them problems.
I've yet to see an artist or other sort of creator happy about that reliance, and basically all of them have been trying to diversify for years, but the flat fact is that the numbers they need (access, visibility for stuff like job applications or whatev', and so on) has been on Twitter and nothing else has it. This shit's hurting them and going to hurt them worse, through no particular fault of their own, and that sucks pretty hard.
There's apparently other fields with a similar issue, for that matter. It may be something of an object lesson about the potential problems with that kind of reliance, but, well... the actual creators involved don't really have enough weight to make a difference on that front. They kinda' have to go where the relevant people are, and twitter's been where that is. The object lesson to be learned is sometimes life's just gon' fuck you and everything you love regardless of what you do, which isn't exactly a helpful lesson.
... the NSFW commentary's particularly relevant, though. Twitter was one of the very few major platforms that still allowed even a modicum of NSFW content, and it going in the shitter is apparently hitting NSFW artists and various sex workers/performers and whatnot particularly hard, which is unfortunate on a pile of levels.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 06, 2023, 05:19:39 pm
Being happy that Twitter is dying when much more nasty (in every measurable way) facebook\meta is feeling fine is... not very wise.
But yes, this slo-mo trainwreck is entertaining to watch.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 06, 2023, 07:49:23 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 06, 2023, 08:38:25 pm
Post by: KittyTac on July 06, 2023, 09:41:37 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 07, 2023, 01:11:41 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 07, 2023, 01:51:22 am
Post by: KittyTac on July 07, 2023, 02:02:02 am
Telegram's a singulaily bad ideaYeah it's clunky and I don't use it, I'm saying that rebels use it more than Discord, which only low IQ rebels do. Come on, it's good as a messenger and media discussion app, but if you're doing anything shady it's not secure enough for that. Telegram is at least encrypted.
Moving to a different platform is not a trivial thing for content creators It makes you lose followers\subscribers. So just abandoning Twitter would not be that easy for artists, OSINT journalists, and other creators even if there were no other reasons why Twitter is better than other social networks for them.Twitter is gonna fully collapse soon so they will have to do it. On a platform they wouldn't be indirectly supporting Musk. In the long run it's a benefit as their sub count will recover and Musk will be permanently humiliated.
Post by: muldrake on July 07, 2023, 03:08:58 am
He says what we're all thinking!
I hope you are right. I hate twatter and I want to see it gone.
(Okay well me at least.)
Twitter is also crucial for OSINT journalism and a very useful tool for organizing protests against oppressive governments.It hasn't been that for a long time. Now, and even before Elon, it just rolls over for oppressive regimes.
Being happy that Twitter is dying when much more nasty (in every measurable way) facebook\meta is feeling fine is... not very wise.
But yes, this slo-mo trainwreck is entertaining to watch.
Post by: King Zultan on July 07, 2023, 04:46:50 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 08, 2023, 01:18:26 pm
Twitter has threatened to sue Meta over its new Threads app, the news outlet Semafor reported on Thursday.Link: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/06/tech/twitter-meta-threads-legal-threat/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/06/tech/twitter-meta-threads-legal-threat/index.html)
In a letter to CEO Mark Zuckerberg published by Semafor, a lawyer for Twitter said the company “has serious concerns that Meta Platforms (Meta) has engaged in systematic, willful and unlawful misappropriation of Twitter’s trade secrets and other intellectual property”.
*grabs popcorn*
Hm, but will Esucks come up with the money to proceed to any lawsuit?
Post by: Strongpoint on July 08, 2023, 01:22:36 pm
Twitter has threatened to sue Meta over its new Threads app, the news outlet Semafor reported on Thursday.Link: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/06/tech/twitter-meta-threads-legal-threat/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/06/tech/twitter-meta-threads-legal-threat/index.html)
In a letter to CEO Mark Zuckerberg published by Semafor, a lawyer for Twitter said the company “has serious concerns that Meta Platforms (Meta) has engaged in systematic, willful and unlawful misappropriation of Twitter’s trade secrets and other intellectual property”.
*grabs popcorn*
Hm, but will Esucks come up with the money to proceed to any lawsuit?
The funniest part is that Musk called all those guys he fired idiots and said that Twitter's code is an awful mess. Why is he worried that the idiots he so wisely fired will now ruin Meta?
Post by: lemon10 on July 08, 2023, 09:11:59 pm
Amazing.
Post by: Starver on July 09, 2023, 03:33:45 pm
The non-uninstallable Twitter app (never intentionally opened) had an update, just now. (It didn't on Friday.) Confusingly, it was dated as from June 30th[2]. No clue as to what changes, and no real8stic way for me to find out, but could be linked to the rate-limiting, perhaps...
Not necessarily news, or meaningful, but I thought I'd say something anyway.
[1] Some things auto-update whenever they feel like it, occasionally I'm told I must update something (often a xay or two after I last did it...
[2] But then the default Calculator app said 8th Jan, and I think the apparent update-date is often seemingly arbitrary and provably wrong (from before the last (few) most recent update(s) for that item. Seems to have no logic to it. I shall have to check if the Calculator's main bug has been squished, though. Maybe they rolled it back to before they made it go a bit wrong....
Post by: Cathar on July 11, 2023, 09:06:41 am
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspended-twitter-account-tracking-elon-musks-jet-moves-threads-rcna93223?
Amazing.
Jesus christ lol. Remember the "I'm a free speech absolutist, I'm not censoring the automated account using publicly available data, see how fanatic I am about free speech?"
Serves him right.
Might move to threads aswell, depending on how retarded their politics on user data are.
Edit : Among other clowneries, Elon Musk challenged Zuckenberg to a boxing match, before being stopped by his mother, which is mildly entertaining.
Seems to be writing on the wall for Twitter... Harsh reminder than signing contracts while high out of your mind is a very bad idea.
Post by: lemon10 on July 11, 2023, 10:16:27 am
Seems to be writing on the wall for Twitter... Harsh reminder than signing contracts while high out of your mind is a very bad idea.Nah, he wasn't high. It was failed market manipulation. Turns out that trying to con people while signing legally enforceable contracts that you have no way to get out of is really stupid.
Post by: Frumple on July 11, 2023, 06:01:20 pm
Might move to threads aswell, depending on how retarded their politics on user data are.Last I noticed, the data they ask for access to looks like a checklist and is currently the reason they weren't/aren't planning on operating in the EU out the gate -- they're not capable or willing to meet EU standards on privacy. Worse than facebook, basically, which was already more or less industry leader in wiping its ass with your personal data, heh.
Post by: scriver on July 12, 2023, 01:45:14 am
.
Edit : Among other clowneries, Elon Musk challenged Zuckenberg to a boxing match, before being stopped by his mother, which is mildly entertaining.
The challenge thing is ridiculous and embarrassing of course but I find the "mum said no" part to be the most humanising news about Musk for months or years now
Post by: Cathar on July 12, 2023, 02:25:53 am
The challenge thing is ridiculous and embarrassing of course but I find the "mum said no" part to be the most humanising news about Musk for months or years nowWhy ? None of it is normal human behavior
Post by: King Zultan on July 12, 2023, 04:55:22 am
Post by: brewer bob on July 12, 2023, 05:04:24 am
You know you're dealing with a giant manchild when he says he can't do something because his mom told him no.
I hope he gets a good spanking and is grounded.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 12, 2023, 09:00:56 am
https://www.sciencealert.com/spacexs-starlink-satellites-are-leaking-radiation-scientists-confirm (https://www.sciencealert.com/spacexs-starlink-satellites-are-leaking-radiation-scientists-confirm)
Post by: Cathar on July 12, 2023, 11:29:37 am
I hope he gets a good spanking and is grounded.No more internet for you, young man ! Off social media for a week !
Looks like Elon is going to get the last laugh:If we fail to reach stage 1 civilization because of Elon Musk, we can officially declare humanity a failure and just scrap planet earth
https://www.sciencealert.com/spacexs-starlink-satellites-are-leaking-radiation-scientists-confirm (https://www.sciencealert.com/spacexs-starlink-satellites-are-leaking-radiation-scientists-confirm)
Post by: Strongpoint on July 12, 2023, 01:46:31 pm
If we fail to reach stage 1 civilization because of Elon Musk, we can officially declare humanity a failure and just scrap planet earth
You mean handle the planet Earth to AIs that will conquer the galaxy and eradicate organic life, right?
Post by: Starver on July 12, 2023, 02:03:37 pm
Obviously an issue, but not the kind of issue you'd have if it was a radioactive problem. Technically it could be completely shut off completely, in an instant (or somewhere within the period of one orbit). Not that I expect them to do that. And it'd need additional commands to also remove both their optical-pollution from the astronomical skies and their potential to be Kessler Syndrome feedstock-in-waiting (for which you'd want them passive but still responsive where necessary, if not ordered to hasten their orbital decay).
All obvious problems, of course. I believe there's been some work to angle the craft to minimise "iridium flare" behaviour, but obviously there's so much "obvious engineering considerations" that may or may not have been actively considered (or the considerations put forward into practical solutions). They'll have forgotten/ignored a number of them, and hopefully nothing more serious than (and few things as serious, or even vaguely approaching) the above issue. Totally out of the hands of armchair 'experts' such as I may be, of course. Pass me the popcorn?
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 12, 2023, 02:50:36 pm
Pass me the popcorn?
Here.
(https://i.imgur.com/DJ7Hqcz.jpeg)
Post by: hector13 on July 12, 2023, 07:57:44 pm
Post by: scriver on July 13, 2023, 02:48:43 am
The challenge thing is ridiculous and embarrassing of course but I find the "mum said no" part to be the most humanising news about Musk for months or years nowWhy ? None of it is normal human behavior
Most people grow out the "you're not the boss of me" phase in their late teens and start appreciating their parents again
Post by: Cathar on July 13, 2023, 04:52:02 am
Most people grow out the "you're not the boss of me" phase in their late teens and start appreciating their parents again
Most people I know have good relations with their parents and never had a schoolyard fight stopped by their mom since they are at least 30. None of that is normal.
Musk is a liar and a bastard (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66183954), what a surprise.It's a class action lawsuit, so the employees may recoup part of what they are owed, crossing fingers for them.
For the hell of me I don't understand how this man is not facing repercussions for forcing his employees to bypass covid restrictions to begin with. He has been known to have been a boss from hell and a danger for humanity for a long time, but maybe as a society we should put the red line at "doing things that are flagrantly illegal"
Post by: King Zultan on July 13, 2023, 05:07:27 am
Post by: Cathar on July 13, 2023, 05:09:42 am
Maybe this is the part of his life story where he has to finally face the consequences of his actions.The character development arc of this anime is long overdue, after all
Post by: EuchreJack on July 13, 2023, 01:46:16 pm
Musk ain't paying a dime.
Post by: lemon10 on July 13, 2023, 01:51:50 pm
Maybe this is the part of his life story where he has to finally face the consequences of his actions.Haha, no.
Even in the absolute best case scenario where he has to pay the entire severance and a few extra hundred million just because out of his own pocket (and like Euchre I would be surprised if he had to pay even a single dime) its less then half a percent of his net worth.
The character development arc of this anime is long overdue, after allThis whole twitter thing *is* his character development arc where its revealed that he was both a generically-rich-person-evil and incompetent the entire time.
Post by: Robsoie on July 13, 2023, 02:14:10 pm
Spoiler: Leave Elon and Twitter alone ! (click to show/hide)
:D
Post by: nenjin on July 13, 2023, 02:44:44 pm
Post by: hector13 on July 13, 2023, 02:47:07 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 13, 2023, 02:55:16 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 13, 2023, 03:26:47 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 13, 2023, 03:29:06 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 13, 2023, 03:31:07 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 13, 2023, 03:34:42 pm
Post by: hector13 on July 13, 2023, 03:58:10 pm
Then again it’s also more common in surgeons, so…
Post by: King Zultan on July 14, 2023, 02:55:28 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 24, 2023, 03:25:50 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 24, 2023, 05:24:50 am
Why, why he decided to rename Twitter to a very original name "X"?
Wait... WHAT!?
Holy crap, that's real. This is the single cringiest shit I've ever seen.
Post by: dragdeler on July 24, 2023, 06:11:16 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 24, 2023, 06:23:49 am
He is the coolest trisomic intersex 90's skaterboy mutant.
You are making him sound cooler than he is.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 24, 2023, 06:35:12 am
Post by: scriver on July 24, 2023, 07:15:27 am
Why, why he decided to rename Twitter to a very original name "X"?
Wait... WHAT!?
Holy crap, that's real. This is the single cringiest shit I've ever seen.
Omagawd I had no idea that was what all the X was about. I thought it was about a tesla car model or something
It just keeps getting better and better. The name was basically the best thing about twitter
I think this it is a hint that all Twitter users will become (e)X users
Hah!
Post by: dragdeler on July 24, 2023, 09:26:47 am
Post by: Telgin on July 24, 2023, 09:42:45 am
It's honestly pretty shocking
Post by: Criptfeind on July 24, 2023, 09:49:02 am
Post by: nenjin on July 24, 2023, 10:54:05 am
Post by: TamerVirus on July 24, 2023, 10:58:10 am
get rid of the most iconic thing about it.Nah, I'm sure bots and stupid takes are still gonna be prevalent
Post by: hector13 on July 24, 2023, 12:46:15 pm
Boy am I glad they were wrong!
Edit: oh, oh dear. I just saw the logo. It looks like a reimagining of Phineas Gage’s tamping rod after it landed.
Post by: Starver on July 24, 2023, 01:13:25 pm
The first thing I thought of, when I first heard of the change, was "the ex-Twitter" is going to be a meme (and not even in the "artist formerly known as Prince" way, at its height, of "hey, it's crazy what he done, but you can't argue that he's not an accomplished musician").
But I've been travelling/sleeping since then, and this is one of my first online footfalls I've made, half a day later, so I'm confident that the internet-wags have already put this (and better) into the memosphere without my help. (It's so obvious, has there been no branding-expert been willing to be a "no man" to his Elonship and suggest something different/keep it unchanged might better?)
Post by: WealthyRadish on July 24, 2023, 01:38:40 pm
Post by: dragdeler on July 24, 2023, 02:09:25 pm
Spoiler: the absolute state of twitter (click to show/hide)
edit: honestly fucking THIS would have been better, haha I can't
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 24, 2023, 02:28:42 pm
Post by: TamerVirus on July 24, 2023, 02:31:23 pm
Post by: Quarque on July 24, 2023, 02:33:42 pm
Can the original thread poster edit the title from "I deleted twitter" to "I deleted X"?or "Musk deleted Twitter and you should, too"
Post by: McTraveller on July 24, 2023, 02:39:15 pm
Can the original thread poster edit the title from "I deleted twitter" to "I deleted X"?or "Musk deleted Twitter and you should, too"
I actually L'd OL.
Post by: Starver on July 24, 2023, 04:56:08 pm
https://xkcd.com/2690/
edit: honestly fucking THIS would have been better, haha I can'tSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 24, 2023, 05:48:26 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 24, 2023, 06:20:57 pm
Musk's thrown it out for a unicode character. Part of me almost feels bad for the consortium, they're probably not getting any sort of attribution for their contribution of the design.
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 24, 2023, 08:58:03 pm
Spoiler: Meme dump (click to show/hide)
Post by: King Zultan on July 25, 2023, 03:32:20 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 25, 2023, 04:27:41 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on July 25, 2023, 04:45:33 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 25, 2023, 05:12:15 am
Spoiler: A live feed of Twitter HQ (click to show/hide)
Post by: dragdeler on July 25, 2023, 08:17:25 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 25, 2023, 08:29:38 am
Post by: scriver on July 25, 2023, 09:46:23 am
(https://i.imgur.com/GNApXpc.jpeg)
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 25, 2023, 10:30:58 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 25, 2023, 12:49:55 pm
It gets better (https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/158lqyt/turns_out_x_has_already_been_trademarked_try_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2)
(https://i.imgur.com/GNApXpc.jpeg)
Meta owns a blue and white X of a very different shape. (Common, trademarks laws aren't THAT bad to allow trademarking a freaking letter)
Post by: Cathar on July 25, 2023, 05:13:43 pm
AS for the new logo, this has to be the most soulless piece of corporatist art I have ever seen
Post by: Frumple on July 25, 2023, 05:18:38 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 25, 2023, 05:35:35 pm
It's official, we have definitely slipped into the clown timeline.
If you excuse me... (https://youtu.be/S280Pqq3T_w)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 25, 2023, 05:46:12 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 25, 2023, 08:16:33 pm
Post by: eerr on July 25, 2023, 10:28:11 pm
If that was X Holding, or one of it's related companies (subsidiaries?)
Then Microsoft might not have any way to fight this.
The X is just musk's branding, so I guess twitter is now his bitch forever.
He's committed, I guess?
Post by: hector13 on July 25, 2023, 10:49:09 pm
Which begs the question why he spent $44b on the Twitter brand just to dump it shortly thereafter.
Post by: eerr on July 25, 2023, 11:11:26 pm
including a payment app.
I'm going to pretend this means internet trolls will have to pay to be annoying.
Post by: lemon10 on July 26, 2023, 01:45:25 am
musk's branding, so I guess twitter is now his bitch forever.I mean, is he committed enough to pony up 12 billion dollars to pay the debt?
He's committed, I guess?
Based on him not actually doing that already it feels like the answer is a solid no.
I guess he could just pay the losses the company truly can't afford out of his personal money, but again that feels like a no given the stuff (lol, working servers) Twitter has refused to pay for.
He might try bankruptcy, but like 20 seconds of googling seem to suggest that would be complicated and might end with the banks that loaned him the money grabbing control over the company to some degree, which musk would totally hate.
Might still end up happening anyways though, it would be hilarious for him to lose the company and it going right back to being called Twitter.
Post by: King Zultan on July 26, 2023, 02:14:20 am
Post by: Cathar on July 26, 2023, 02:58:12 am
Eh... it's just a unicode character? Very, very literally (https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+1D54F), the "Mathematical Double-Struck Capital X". I'm not sure I'd call it corporatist art at all, they klepped the thing basically unaltered from a friggin' font set. It's lazy plagiarism more than anything.Holy shit. Dude barfs 40 billions to acquire a company and won't pay a designer for his new logo ? He won't even run stable diffusion on it ?
Jesus christ the future is bright
Post by: Starver on July 26, 2023, 03:18:05 am
Might still end up happening anyways though, it would be hilarious for him to lose the company and it going right back to being called Twitter.NuTwitter!
Holy shit. Dude barfs 40 billions to acquire a company and won't pay a designer for his new logo ? He won't even run stable diffusion on it ?(Wrote this earlier, but it fits nicely as direct reply to the "as you were typing" post, too.) I heard an expert interviewee (the actual guy who created the prior logo) opine that the placeholder-X will have to soon be redrafted as an 'X' with 'more roundedness' (he was rather proud of the circles he used to build up the erstwhile Larry). Though, to me, polishing a t... otal mess like this isn't going to be the deal-breaker/-maker to transition into the virtual Omni Consumer Products that he apparently plans.
Jesus christ the future is bright
Post by: Cathar on July 26, 2023, 05:05:46 am
Right now, having a white on black "X" on my browser tab gives the impression I have an amateur russian porn site open.
Post by: MaxTheFox on July 26, 2023, 06:29:16 am
I haven't followed that story to be honest. So that thing is a placeholder ?No, it's permanent.
Right now, having a white on black "X" on my browser tab gives the impression I have an amateur russian porn site open.
And it's telling you to press the other X, the one that appears when you mouse over the tab, whenever you see it in the browser hotbar.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 26, 2023, 07:38:53 am
I haven't followed that story to be honest. So that thing is a placeholder ?
Right now, having a white on black "X" on my browser tab gives the impression I have an amateur russian porn site open.
Well, if you are subscribed to the "right" people,
Post by: Cathar on July 26, 2023, 07:42:38 am
Well, if you are subscribed to the "right" people,
It's all coming together. It's so trashy I feel it'll install malware on my pc.
No, it's permanent.I wish there was one credible alternative, open source would be fantastic, but mastodon is a mess. Threads might legitimately be better at this point, but it's trading aids for syphillis
And it's telling you to press the other X, the one that appears when you mouse over the tab, whenever you see it in the browser hotbar.
Post by: Robsoie on July 26, 2023, 08:44:34 am
Elon Musk is a man that have a level of humanist altruism truly unmatched.
He helped people of all ages that are suffering from famine around the world by teaching them they should stop whining and be happy by not investing insane billions of dollars in active real help to provide food for the people in need but instead invest those insane billions in some shitty internet social crap.
Maybe in the future people will finally see how Musk was such a great human and not a disgusting little piece of shit, probably a future in which humans brain will have degenerated enough so they can't remember anything anyways :D
Post by: dragdeler on July 26, 2023, 09:02:49 am
Spoiler: Jack Dorsey that fateful day (click to show/hide)
Post by: martinuzz on July 26, 2023, 09:51:56 am
We should all rent huge bulldozers and shovels, bulldoze all twitter data centers and start digging underneath them.
X marks the spot right?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 26, 2023, 08:27:26 pm
Post by: King Zultan on July 27, 2023, 02:06:32 am
It's all coming together. It's so trashy I feel it'll install malware on my pc.You act like it hasn't been doing that the entire time.
Post by: muldrake on July 27, 2023, 02:07:23 am
The X is just musk's branding, so I guess twitter is now his bitch forever.He's obsessed with the letter. He tried to rename PayPal X and got ousted. SpaceX. Some Tesla model. He literally named one of his sons X.
Quote
He's committed, I guess?If not, he should be.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 27, 2023, 04:27:00 am
Indonesia’s Ministry of Communication and Informatics said the site was restricted as the domain had been previously used by sites that did not adhere to the country’s strict laws against “negative” content such as pornography and gambling
________________
LOL
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2023, 04:42:12 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 27, 2023, 05:36:29 am
Elon Musk’s radical rebranding of Twitter as “X” led to the site being blocked in Indonesia.Unfortunately, that's manifestly untrue - the domain name has been owned since the early 90s by Musk and his companies. It was originally an online banking company that developed into PayPal, which held the domain until Musk bought it back recently. The current registration has existed since 1993. Indonesia didn't even have internet before that.
Indonesia’s Ministry of Communication and Informatics said the site was restricted as the domain had been previously used by sites that did not adhere to the country’s strict laws against “negative” content such as pornography and gambling
________________
LOL
Post by: martinuzz on July 27, 2023, 06:14:42 am
Post by: Starver on July 27, 2023, 06:39:00 am
It was originally an online banking company that developed into PayPal, which held the domain until Musk bought it back recently.Anybody who puts money into a Musk payment system is probably gambling (so it probably paid off for them, before, but that need not continue).
And any "all in one" online payment/etc service is almost certainly going to service a niché or two (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheInternetIsForPorn), even if those providing/consuming have to dodge around professed usage-restrictions by the various 'innocent' MITM services.
Post by: Laterigrade on July 27, 2023, 09:11:35 am
Eh... it's just a unicode character? Very, very literally (https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+1D54F), the "Mathematical Double-Struck Capital X". I'm not sure I'd call it corporatist art at all, they klepped the thing basically unaltered from a friggin' font set. It's lazy plagiarism more than anything.lmao that’s pretty funny
Post by: The_Explorer on July 27, 2023, 02:52:48 pm
Post by: dragdeler on July 27, 2023, 03:06:05 pm
Post by: King Zultan on July 28, 2023, 01:20:18 am
Post by: Strongpoint on July 28, 2023, 01:51:48 pm
Post by: dragdeler on July 28, 2023, 02:14:01 pm
Post by: Cathar on July 28, 2023, 04:43:18 pm
Will X start banning people who insist on calling it Twitter? It would be in Musk's styleThat would be the absolutist free speech advocacy we're all expecting and used to, yes
As for the name maybe it's the initial of his favourite dictator
Post by: Starver on July 28, 2023, 05:00:55 pm
Xavier Espot, Prime Minister of Andorra
Xiomara Castro, President of Honduras
Post by: pisskop on July 28, 2023, 05:02:54 pm
That said, maybe he will find a way to make a profit on it yet. Only needs .... something like 15 billion dollars now. I heard he stopped paying twitter's bills
Post by: Cathar on July 28, 2023, 09:34:04 pm
Xavier Bettel, Prime Minister of LuxembourgXinnie the Pooh, president of the plushies
Xavier Espot, Prime Minister of Andorra
Xiomara Castro, President of Honduras
Post by: EuchreJack on July 28, 2023, 09:59:17 pm
The True (https://harveybirdman.fandom.com/wiki/X_the_Eliminator) Inspiration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping)Xavier Bettel, Prime Minister of LuxembourgXinnie the Pooh, president of the plushies
Xavier Espot, Prime Minister of Andorra
Xiomara Castro, President of Honduras
Post by: voliol on July 29, 2023, 01:52:48 am
Really what all this means means, is that Elon got Norted. (https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort)The True (https://harveybirdman.fandom.com/wiki/X_the_Eliminator) Inspiration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping)Xavier Bettel, Prime Minister of LuxembourgXinnie the Pooh, president of the plushies
Xavier Espot, Prime Minister of Andorra
Xiomara Castro, President of Honduras
Post by: King Zultan on July 29, 2023, 02:07:41 am
Post by: hector13 on July 29, 2023, 02:12:38 am
Pretty sure one of his companies wants to implant things in human brains, so he’s most of the way there anyway.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 29, 2023, 04:35:43 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 29, 2023, 01:59:55 pm
Then he can become a Resident Evil villain.
Pretty sure one of his companies wants to implant things in human brains, so he’s most of the way there anyway.
As of May 2023, they have been approved for human trials in the United States. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: martinuzz on July 29, 2023, 03:14:36 pm
I also genuinly worry about his kids, I hope they aren't his personal cyborg projects.
Post by: Starver on July 29, 2023, 03:30:43 pm
Post by: Bralbaard on July 29, 2023, 04:05:18 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 29, 2023, 04:37:26 pm
I would not be surprised if he has implanted himself with one too many of the things. The way he speaks non-fluently, almost robotic always makes me think he has some kind of brain damage.It's... probably the drugs more than anything to do with cybernetics. Forget which is public knowledge, but it's fairly well known he abuses at least one or two sorts, iirc. Between that, rich person brainrot, and whatever else is going on with his fucked up personal life, it's probably not the best for cognitive functioning.
I also genuinly worry about his kids, I hope they aren't his personal cyborg projects.
If he wasn't such a colossal asshole, it'd almost be sad how much of a mid life crisis the blighter's been going through for the last while. Unfortunately, he's doing things like willingly platforming people that share pedophile snuff videos, so, y'know, fuck 'em.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 29, 2023, 10:30:21 pm
He's restricted on his ability to tweet whatever he wants about Tesla, instead required to run it by
Ergo, he's going to argue that since Twitter no longer exists, he can post on "X" whatever he wants whenever he wants.
Post by: Cathar on July 29, 2023, 10:54:36 pm
That would be dumb as hell, Twitter still exists as a legal entity. The cops don't stop chasing you after you repaint your car, this aint GTA. With that said that would be on brand for Elon.
Post by: King Zultan on July 30, 2023, 01:56:46 am
Post by: Cathar on July 30, 2023, 05:46:33 am
Things like laws won't stop Elon from doing it.Or...will they (https://apnews.com/article/twitter-san-francisco-building-x-elon-musk-4e0ae2a3b1b838b744bb2dc494f5b23c) ?
Post by: Robsoie on July 30, 2023, 05:49:17 am
Elon Musk next step :Things like laws won't stop Elon from doing it.Or...will they (https://apnews.com/article/twitter-san-francisco-building-x-elon-musk-4e0ae2a3b1b838b744bb2dc494f5b23c) ?
Buy the laws, rename them laws X
Problem solved
Post by: dragdeler on July 30, 2023, 05:50:42 am
Post by: Cathar on July 30, 2023, 05:59:49 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 30, 2023, 04:25:24 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 30, 2023, 05:03:22 pm
(too late, btw. It's so weird to see the new icon on my phone. Definitely is helping me break the instinct to check the dang thing)
(probably because I don't have those other 5 apps arranged... hm....)
anyway sharing this with my gay friends (I am very straight since transition)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 30, 2023, 10:48:29 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on August 01, 2023, 12:11:50 am
Thankfully, his opponent in this case seems to have the ability to fight him off.
Post by: King Zultan on August 01, 2023, 03:34:34 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 01, 2023, 06:13:21 am
Post by: muldrake on August 01, 2023, 07:06:56 am
I finally saw the new logo and man that thing feels and looks like something you'd see on a cheap app.It's literally just a Unicode character: 𝕏
Post by: Robsoie on August 01, 2023, 07:39:57 am
Post by: scriver on August 01, 2023, 08:10:39 am
Post by: Starver on August 01, 2023, 08:50:22 am
Post by: hector13 on August 01, 2023, 11:42:05 am
Esux's new strategy - threatening litigation: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna97265 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna97265)
Thankfully, his opponent in this case seems to have the ability to fight him off.
Pretty sure he also accused them of taking money from his competitors and government entities as their motivation for attacking the company too.
If that were the case, why does he not just pay them off with a donation or two?
Post by: dragdeler on August 01, 2023, 12:15:52 pm
I heard that Musk had another name in mind, but that even he didn't want to annoy Mars (in advance of his landing there) by apparently infringing upon another named copyright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twix)...
Is that real or are you kidding? I had thought about making this joke something something about buying another brand bc of sunk cost fallacy, but then I wasn't happy with how I tied it.j
Post by: Starver on August 01, 2023, 01:27:33 pm
Is that real or are you kidding?...let's just say that my source probably won't complain if you wish to 'improve' upon the formulation of the message in any way.
Post by: Cathar on August 02, 2023, 04:44:37 am
Post by: King Zultan on August 02, 2023, 05:23:22 am
Post by: eerr on August 02, 2023, 01:54:01 pm
Post by: hector13 on August 02, 2023, 02:00:46 pm
Post by: Frumple on August 02, 2023, 04:38:26 pm
You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.I'unno, from what I've learned of musk's life, there wasn't much of a window to die a hero and it closed at some point before he went into business. So, I mean. Yes? But also, uh.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 02, 2023, 05:14:27 pm
The second he decided to keep the blood money from his parents rather than donate it to charity, I think his soul was gone.You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.I'unno, from what I've learned of musk's life, there wasn't much of a window to die a hero and it closed at some point before he went into business. So, I mean. Yes? But also, uh.
Post by: heydude6 on August 02, 2023, 05:25:26 pm
Post by: muldrake on August 02, 2023, 10:51:39 pm
I’m pleased every time they reference a tweet on X, the BBC also say something along the lines of “the social media platform formerly known as Twitter”.It reminds me of Prince.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 03, 2023, 12:14:43 am
Hm, Prince pulled that stunt because he wanted out of his record contract. Food for thought.I’m pleased every time they reference a tweet on X, the BBC also say something along the lines of “the social media platform formerly known as Twitter”.It reminds me of Prince.
Post by: King Zultan on August 03, 2023, 05:37:46 am
Post by: scriver on August 03, 2023, 05:59:01 am
But don't you want to see his special Xads I mean they're so much better than regular ads because of the added X!
This is a reminder that X in words is sometimes pronounced ch, likes Javier=Chavier=Xavier. So how dare you make fun of his chads
Post by: Frumple on August 03, 2023, 07:16:36 am
Post by: dragdeler on August 03, 2023, 07:24:56 am
Post by: Cathar on August 03, 2023, 08:43:30 am
But my effective altruism. /sUsing blood emerald money to destroy endangered wildlife and expropriate people in south US is love for humanity, don't you know. Also union busting is what free speech absolutism looks like.
The circus never ends in the clown dimension
Post by: TBeholder on August 03, 2023, 09:29:59 am
Post by: zhijinghaofromchina on August 03, 2023, 09:03:14 pm
Post by: King Zultan on August 04, 2023, 02:34:08 am
Post by: zhijinghaofromchina on August 04, 2023, 02:47:34 am
In my opinion , he is not only a great dreamer but an aggressive leader who fights for the humans to a road towards the space.
Anyway he is also a leader in the new energy automotive industry which also promotes China’s innovation in this industry.
My family bought a new car which consumes electricity and I am going to buy a new Tesla when I was economically independent.
Post by: Starver on August 04, 2023, 03:32:52 am
He has proclaimed that Twitter should not be moderated (except for anything critical/unsupportive of him, personally?), which doesn't fit well with requirements your part of the world, so I imagine you're officially insulated from the obvious way to instantly annoy everyone, but I'm sure he'll do something stupid (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/elon-musk-twitter-terrible-things-hes-said-and-done). And if he annoys your government enough, somehow, then sanctioned reporting of the perceived slight will find itself spreading all too easily.
(No doubt that he has significantly reinvented the electric vehicle/space travel bandwagons, perhaps shaped the ways that others approach the problems, but both of these could easily be construed as being in direct competition with other efforts. Time will tell.)
Post by: Robsoie on August 04, 2023, 05:15:04 am
[...]I checked that one from that list :
but I'm sure he'll do something stupid (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/elon-musk-twitter-terrible-things-hes-said-and-done).
[...]
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12?r=US&IR=T
That's just hilarious.
Post by: Frumple on August 04, 2023, 10:20:31 am
My family bought a new car which consumes electricity and I am going to buy a new Tesla when I was economically independent.I'd really, really strongly recommend against it -- there's other electric vehicle manufacturers out there, and most of them are both more economical and more reliable. Teslas are becoming somewhat notorious for things that include killing pedestrians due to design flaws.
Though if musk hasn't personally gone on a sinophobic rant lately, you probably would do well to pay attention to the sorts of folks he's supporting, retweeting, magnifying, etc. He's not a man with much sympathy for the chinese nation, heh.
Post by: zhijinghaofromchina on August 04, 2023, 10:50:04 am
In fact you can get lots of news here on the website here abot Elon Musk nearly everyday,sometimes I am also confused and envy the American that they have a GREAT leader who is very rich and aggressive.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 04, 2023, 04:15:37 pm
Thanks a lot for your warnings , but it still confuses me that why such a wise merchant who has a large market in China could insult my country.I actually have far more respect for your country's auto manufacturer Zhejiang Geely Holding Group Co., Ltd. (ZGH), commonly known as Geely (/ˈdʒiːli/ JEE-lee; Chinese: 吉利; pinyin: Jílì; lit. 'auspicious') and it's owner Li Shufu (simplified Chinese: 李书福; traditional Chinese: 李書福; pinyin: Lǐ Shūfú; born 25 June 1963). His company silently buying up foreign car manufacturers is brilliant. And he does not seem to cause trouble, far as I know.
In fact you can get lots of news here on the website here abot Elon Musk nearly everyday,sometimes I am also confused and envy the American that they have a GREAT leader who is very rich and aggressive.
Post by: Starver on August 04, 2023, 04:48:43 pm
He might have an 'ultimate plan', that's proceeding exactly according to schedule, but it really doesn't look like it. It looks like he's trying out some vague whims and second-guessing his 'customers', just because he can. And possibly the only reason he isn't actively insulting China (if he is not) is because he's still dependent upon its good will for (e.g.) lithium batteries or other components. Your country has become one of the main powerhouses in the supply-chain world.
But what I think we're mostly saying here is not necessarily that it's a very bad idea to imagine eventually buying a Tesla (which has problems right now, indeed). But that, if and when you get to that point[1], you may want to at the very least, shop around. And if Tesla has improved, probably so will something else.
[1] To quote (more or less) another comedy show: "I wish I had enough money to buy an elephant." / "Why would you want an elephant?" / "I wouldn't, I just want to have the money!"
Post by: King Zultan on August 05, 2023, 05:09:01 am
Also Elon is less of a "wise merchant" and more of a guy with a lot of money that buys things and pretends that he came up with the idea in the first place.
Post by: dragdeler on August 05, 2023, 06:20:18 am
Post by: McTraveller on August 05, 2023, 07:26:07 am
Post by: Frumple on August 05, 2023, 07:35:49 am
Twitter's just been an incredibly visible demonstration of that exacerbated by what looks to all appearances like a fairly nasty midlife crisis. Basically everything he's been involved in has functioned best when he stayed the hell out of the way and stuck to boondoggling investors.
Post by: McTraveller on August 05, 2023, 07:51:30 am
1$40B / $60k is almost 700000. I think people don't understand just how stupidly massive that amount of money is, for one person to be able to control that amount of influence - for at those levels, money is no longer about buying "stuff": it is only about influence. Which incidentally is what I believe Musk was buying.
Post by: hector13 on August 05, 2023, 11:38:59 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 05, 2023, 02:40:56 pm
Remember, Musk wanted to back out of the deal, and instead of paying the breakup fee (which I think was $1 billion if I recall correctly) he decided to go to court, lost, and got forced to buy it for the initially promised $44 billion.
Then he sued the lawyers that the previous Twitter owners hired to sue Elon Musk to force him to buy Twitter. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko8C3surjhM&ab_channel=LegalEagle)
And didn't succeed, obviously.
Post by: TBeholder on August 08, 2023, 02:18:48 pm
I mean I guess that's a kind of savvy? I mean in an alternate universe, I might be envious of these megalomaniacs who manage to accrue enough money to be able to literally destroy a company for the low-low-price of 700 thousand1 median person-years of salary.There is probably a difference between “reboot a former social media platform that obviously ceased to function as anything other than a weird hybrid of an advertisement platform and shitposting boardx long ago” and “destroy a company”. Because “blue check” acquired a new meaning very soon after introduction.
Unless, of course, someone would convincingly demonstrate that vast swarms of bobblehead bots and shills:
1. …did in fact generate revenue,
2. …better than actual living users.
Actually, it would be morbidly hilarious if so. But this cannot be taken for granted at all.
Until then, the decision to bury Twitter brand and just use servers for the original purpose does not appear necessarily ruinous.
x okay, for the sake of completeness there is also the third misuse: posting art on it. As a (poor) substitute for tumblr, after that one acquired the reputation of a lunatic cesspool, and became less and less usable, or DeviantTArt, after the latter turned into furry/horrid fan “art” cesspool. I am, indeed, quite sympathetic. Yet this still falls both under a form of promotion and usage for a purpose having very little to do with social media… and one for which Twitter was obviously much less suitable than for the other misuses, at that. And obviously much less suitable than any actual art site. Especially after Team Norwegian Blue removed RSS.
just how stupidly massive that amount of money is, for one person to be able to control that amount of influence - for at those levels, money is no longer about buying "stuff": it is only about influence. Which incidentally is what I believe Musk was buying.Well, duh. But that Musk may now have it was not what caused 60 pages of exercise in “When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout”, was it? It was the seeming gilded era of shills coming to an abrupt end, under a thousand of different fig leaves. And here we are in a rather decent place. To think of the horrors that lurk at some places beyond…
Post by: Frumple on August 08, 2023, 04:09:42 pm
Unless, of course, someone would convincingly demonstrate that vast swarms of bobblehead bots and shills:Twitter was actually starting to fairly consistently post profitable financial periods, iirc... before musk lmao'd his way into being forced to cash the check his mouth wrote, and then promptly kicked over the jenga tower that had finally started to figure out making money as a social media platform.
1. …did in fact generate revenue,
2. …better than actual living users.
Actually, it would be morbidly hilarious if so. But this cannot be taken for granted at all.
Until then, the decision to bury Twitter brand and just use servers for the original purpose does not appear necessarily ruinous.
Since then it's lost tens of billions of dollars worth of evaluation and its profits have tanked into the dirt, if I'm not misremembering :V
If that's not ruinous, it's something cosplaying a remarkable rendition of it, heh.
Post by: heydude6 on August 08, 2023, 04:11:31 pm
Until then, the decision to bury Twitter brand and just use servers for the original purpose does not appear necessarily ruinous.
The problem is that Musk didn’t buy twitter with his own money, but he borrowed a ton to buy twitter in a leveraged buyout.
As a result, twitter isn’t just bleeding money like a typical unprofitable tech startup, it’s now being sucked dry by high interest rates as well. And if Twitter fails to make those payments they’ll be forced to declare bankruptcy.
When people say Twitter might die, they aren’t exaggerating. Musk has put the company on the road to ruin. There’s a reason why people believe leveraged buyouts should be made illegal.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 08, 2023, 07:16:53 pm
This does seem to tie into their recent expansions, such as buying up American Golf to whitewash any other issues they might have.
In fact, they might actually be able to blend it all together into something profitable.
...Musky still shouldn't go to the Middle East after this.
Post by: hector13 on August 08, 2023, 08:10:36 pm
… evidently they think they can do it better than China did, as the Chinese did it about a decade ago and it didn’t go so well for them.
Oh well, just means already inflated transfer fees and wages for soccer players in Europe get even worse.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 08, 2023, 10:58:38 pm
Saudis are more interested in sports washing right now. Evidently their current method is soccer: they’ve bought many, many, many players from big European teams, as well as enticing managers and coaches with fuck huge contracts too.
… evidently they think they can do it better than China did, as the Chinese did it about a decade ago and it didn’t go so well for them.
Oh well, just means already inflated transfer fees and wages for soccer players in Europe get even worse.
A social media platform they "buy" with their residual credit from the trash bin of Bankruptcy Court should mesh well with that, no?
Post by: King Zultan on August 09, 2023, 04:00:40 am
Post by: Robsoie on August 09, 2023, 07:30:27 am
:D
Post by: dragdeler on August 09, 2023, 12:11:24 pm
Post by: Robsoie on August 09, 2023, 12:24:34 pm
Post by: dragdeler on August 09, 2023, 12:37:29 pm
Post by: Quarque on August 09, 2023, 12:40:19 pm
Maybe he should change his name to X.You know how his son is called? I forgot the exact string, but it was something like X-<serial number>
Post by: King Zultan on August 10, 2023, 02:36:44 am
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2023, 03:08:11 am
I thought that was a joke, did he really name his kid X?
Of course not, don’t be silly.
He named him X Æ A-12.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on August 10, 2023, 04:10:21 am
I thought that was a joke, did he really name his kid X?
Of course not, don’t be silly.
He named him X Æ A-12.
Oh yeah, I remember this. Ultra cringe.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2023, 04:35:00 am
Post by: dragdeler on August 10, 2023, 11:05:25 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 10, 2023, 12:21:51 pm
Rich people should not be allowed
Post by: McTraveller on August 10, 2023, 01:21:58 pm
Rich people should not be allowed
Uhh... I'm in the top 1% for income globally. No question I'm "rich", even though there are people that have 1000x (or more!) than me. Apparently I'm more than 20x the global "median" income.
Fun fact: if you are a single adult and bring in a mere $18000 annually after taxes (which is something like a full-time job at only $12/hr): you are more wealthy than 89% of the world population, and still like 6x the median.
At what point are you "not allowed"?
Post by: hector13 on August 10, 2023, 01:27:09 pm
Post by: lemon10 on August 10, 2023, 01:40:29 pm
For instance in large parts of California (where I live) making $18,000 a year is basically living in poverty. So like sure at $30k, you may make more then that dude in africa who is supporting six people, owns his own home, and has money saved up for a rainy day, but by any reasonable metric he is much richer then you.
Post by: McTraveller on August 10, 2023, 01:52:49 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 10, 2023, 02:05:07 pm
Rich people should not be allowed
Uhh... I'm in the top 1% for income globally. No question I'm "rich", even though there are people that have 1000x (or more!) than me. Apparently I'm more than 20x the global "median" income.
Fun fact: if you are a single adult and bring in a mere $18000 annually after taxes (which is something like a full-time job at only $12/hr): you are more wealthy than 89% of the world population, and still like 6x the median.
At what point are you "not allowed"?
This thread is about a person who spent millions to buy a company just to jerk his ego and run it into the ground. And no matter how many stupid stunts he does for headlines, will still end up with incomprehensible wealth. He cannot blunder his way into poverty.
Post by: Cathar on August 10, 2023, 02:38:26 pm
x okay, for the sake of completeness there is also the third misuse: posting art on it.Twitter always has been used (misuse, lol) to post art, as far as it existed. It indeed came to prominence after Tumblr's suicide, which happend in similar circumstances ; to court advertiser, they started to monitor and censor content and artist fled to Twitter. It gained traction in the artistic community not because it was especially good, but because the community was fed up with the competition.
The destruction of Tumblr has nothing to do with its reputation of being a lunatic and everything to do with suddently banning porn.
As for dA, it is alive and well, it is just a niche, specialized social media, with a limited reach toward non-artists, which is a problem when you expose to sell your services.
The dA community has its grip with the management (the "french press" incident got a number of accounts deleted because the CEO missed an opportunity to shut up once) - but otherwise manages to stay clear of controversy. And yeah, you post art on dA, there is an art website beyond what Mr. Mekotur presents in his videos.
Post by: King Zultan on August 11, 2023, 03:35:58 am
What the hell kind of name is that, that's worse than what Michel Jackson named his.I thought that was a joke, did he really name his kid X?
Of course not, don’t be silly.
He named him X Æ A-12.
How would you even pronounce that?
Post by: Magmacube_tr on August 11, 2023, 04:07:57 am
What the hell kind of name is that, that's worse than what Michel Jackson named his.I thought that was a joke, did he really name his kid X?
Of course not, don’t be silly.
He named him X Æ A-12.
How would you even pronounce that?
I have no idea dude. Elon is just batshit crazy.
Post by: Bralbaard on August 11, 2023, 04:34:56 am
Like, almost anything will pass, but you can't name your kid Adolf Hitler, etc.
Pretty sure that would have also filtered out this X-nonsense.
Not sure if any checks are in place in the US, but I guess with enough money you could buy your way through.
Post by: Frumple on August 11, 2023, 09:13:00 am
Any case, near as I can tell there's not any federal level legislation on naming in the US, it's all state level, so what exactly passes muster is going to change from location to location.
But yeah, if that looks and sounds like Elon is fucking over his kid on a lark, well. Yes. That's exactly what's happening. Him being an idiot potentially making a child's life harder in the future.
Post by: Starver on August 11, 2023, 09:20:10 am
(...obviously inspired by 'Little Bobby Tables')
Post by: Strongpoint on August 18, 2023, 12:05:54 pm
I guess annoying losers with fake blue checkmarks really need their crap to be seen.
____
On the bright side, my last week on tw... X will be entertaining, I'll annoy all those vatniks that blocked me.
Post by: da_nang on August 19, 2023, 06:01:18 am
Post by: Starver on September 01, 2023, 05:58:41 am
Not saying I don't understand why they want to (for operational/business reasons), but if I was ever tempted to participate in it then this is rather reducing any residual urges I might have had.
Post by: hector13 on September 16, 2023, 11:37:10 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 28, 2023, 06:07:24 am
Elon, we have a problem (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-66830495).I love how goat natured the Haddington boys are. Good lads
Post by: The_Explorer on October 04, 2023, 12:56:20 pm
But...apparently get enough hits, you can make decent amount of money on X. At least decent in my standards (I make roughly 1k a month...so....take that as you will)...I kinda like the platform in the standpoint I get news from around the world that US media just doesn't cover. They barely cover middle east, barely cover china/taiwan (though more these days than past, still limited), barely cover india stuff etc. I also think elon is very weird (especially his choice in partners)...but ok I admit I like making a nice easy money that more than pays for itself
My X is more for gaming than politics though. My gaming tweets (or X's? Still dunno what they call it lol) vastly higher hits than the rare political stuff I tweet about. And lets be honest, political tweets are all junk even my own political opinion if I tweet about it...IS STILL JUNK lol. I hate politics so any politics is junk even if its my own opinion on it :P
Post by: eerr on October 04, 2023, 01:13:47 pm
There's a term for advertisements tracking you beyond sites that use their api, but I'm just gonna call it cross-tracking.
Twitter advertisers or twitter themselves has fingers in every pie. I am un-nerved by all the targetting advertising pursuing me across the web. Can't have that shit.
Post by: Laterigrade on October 04, 2023, 08:17:13 pm
The memetic strength of an idea does not equal its quality.a seriously depressing thought, but the more I think about it the clearer the truth of it gets
Post by: Starver on November 01, 2023, 06:48:04 am
Spoiler: Personal opinion (click to show/hide)
More "Musk news" than anything to do with Twi/X, I know, though you can bet your bottom bitcoin that he will be working to push his vision of AI into the workings of whatever-it's-called-today... He's just trying to look significant, with this particular comment, which is probably some sort of meta-level (but not 'Meta'-level) insecurity given that he's hardly going to be forgotten soon.
Post by: nenjin on November 01, 2023, 10:15:34 am
Post by: Great Order on November 01, 2023, 11:02:44 am
Post by: scriver on November 01, 2023, 12:38:15 pm
Post by: Frumple on November 01, 2023, 04:07:39 pm
Post by: McTraveller on November 01, 2023, 04:15:18 pm
So if AI does "destroy the world" - it's the fault of whoever connects it to actuators.
I think the Dollhouse scenario is probably the most entertaining to be honest.
Post by: Maximum™ on November 01, 2023, 06:39:19 pm
A large language model is only artificially intelligent if you dumb down the definition of "intelligent" to the point a turd like Musk counts. The dipshit who so far lit 20 billion on fire in a desperate move to be popular among the only people dumber than he is and somehow failed when the bar was a tripping hazard in hell.
Anybody here play with cleverbot back in the day?
Remember how there was a point where it seemed really ...clever suddenly?
Remember noticing shit YOU had said to it coming back out?
Is cleverbot an AI?
Obviously not, but it's as close to being a weak AI as modern chatbots are, and those are just--to borrow a perfect phrase--blurry .jpegs of the internet.
If you screenshotted every page on wikipedia and compressed them enough to fit in your phone would it be the same as wikipedia?
A better question: does the average post or site on the internet seem like it has an impressive mind behind it?
Probably not, but it definitely seems like there is SOME sort of mind back there on that side of the page, yeah?
So why would smushing those up and regurgitating them as a chatbot do anything but lower the resolution? It can still feel like there is someone back there, because prior to the scraping/feeding/training/barfing/displaying steps there was.
The real AI is the trolls we blocked along the way, sadly.
Post by: King Zultan on November 02, 2023, 12:58:33 am
Post by: Maximum™ on November 02, 2023, 01:40:15 am
Like have you heard of The Culture novels?
The ships in those stories are often huge cities floating around the galaxy operated by Minds which find us little people interesting and basically treat us like beloved pets, but on the surface the interface may appear similar to that of Star Trek: ask a question to the air and get an answer.
Except a Mind has people do things because it is good enrichment for us, while the Enterprise is frustratingly dumb and NEEDS to be operated for some reason.
We're no closer to building a Mind now than we were decades ago, but a seemingly impressive yet actually dumb voice interface like they have on Star Trek? Yeah we can do that, but it ain't AI.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 02, 2023, 01:49:46 am
Though honestly I don't like that kind of prescriptivism. The meaning of AI has shifted to include machine learning, for better or for worse, and this change occurred before the 2023 AI boom. We can't change that now. So I differentiate between true AI (which is-- and hopefully will forever stay-- a sci-fi tech) and regular AI which is only a simulacrum of intelligence.
AI has actually done a lot for science, protein folding for example has seen a huge boost and it's all worth it honestly. LLMs and so on are neat but they're a byproduct tech. They're just more obvious so people talk about them more.
Post by: Maximum™ on November 02, 2023, 07:32:21 am
That's why I used that wonderful description earlier: LLMs are blurry .jpegs of the internet.
If it seems somewhat familiar it is just because there is so much of ourselves in the internet now, so smushing it together and smooshing it back out in an on demand interface is a really easy way to trick people into imputing motive and awareness and indeed a mind where there is none.
You can do neat things when you throw data at a model and ask it to squish out an interesting solution for a relevant problem.
Stuff like minimal material optimization and out-of-the-ordinary approaches to problems are cool and ALMOST qualify as intelligent.
Chatbots confidently making shit up based on what they expect the next word to be in a response is a cool parlor trick, and a great way to pollute the internet with even more confidently stated bullshit than it was already full of.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 02, 2023, 08:27:50 am
For my worldbuild I invented a term: pseudosapient AI. It's essentially what we have, except more advanced, with emphasis on pseudo. Good for menial tasks involving information, or interpreting orders. Not good for anything involving high accuracy, on-the-fly learning, or human-level flexibility.
Post by: Starver on November 02, 2023, 08:52:54 am
Tell me about the time when we'd call Eliza an AI.
Well, although it was programmed by humans, it did occasionalyl come up with rare flashes of brilliant insight.
I'm glad you are well, although it was programmed by humans, it did occasionalyl come up with rare flashes of brilliant insight.
It would often degrade badly if it got the wrong end of the linguistic stick. And probably the self-building version is just as dumb, just less predictably so.
Tell me more...
...
edit to correct one typo, and *duplicate* another...
Post by: Strongpoint on November 02, 2023, 09:11:52 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 02, 2023, 09:30:49 am
LLMs are funny because they prove that the ability to speak in coherent sentences does not equal intelligence. In Musk's case, we can see that the ability to become a multibillionaire also doesn't equal intelligenceThe Turing Test has been falsified as a measure of sapience, tbh.
Post by: King Zultan on November 03, 2023, 02:26:09 am
Also can really stupid people like Elon fail it?
Post by: Starver on November 03, 2023, 04:37:03 am
And, as sophistication of chatbot increases, it might be because the human is actually too precise (because the computer has been developed/encouraged to make human-looking typos/thinkos), at least until that becomes expected. Then the sloppy 'human' typist might be misidentified as "trying too hard" to look like "a normal human (https://xkcd.com/1530/)"...
So, really, the full modern test should be done as a cohort thing (multiple humans 'vs' multiple chatbot 'AI' instances, with multiple evaluators[2] scoring ) to tease out a probability function that cannot be null-hypothesised by significant sigmas. Or something.
(There have been people who proudly claim to have been misidentified as the AI in past Turing Tests. But then Elon, for all his latest warnings about "humanoid robots", probably is just as likely to be one as anything we're going to see in the near future. I see through his game... Methinks the android doth protest too much! Obviously not perfectly programmed (cannot even generate a plausible name, for himself or his 'children'), but mechanically only slightly off into the Uncanny Valley...)
[1] Independently, although some interpretations are that the (test-)human and computer converse and the judge reviews their conversation...
[2] Throw in some generative-adversarial 'judges', just for fun! ;)
Post by: Strongpoint on November 03, 2023, 05:08:02 am
1) I explain the rules of a somewhat complex game of which AI has no prior knowledge.
2) It plays it, forming its own strategy instead of making random moves
Post by: Maximum™ on November 03, 2023, 06:07:12 am
Post by: Rolan7 on November 05, 2023, 06:59:34 am
I still can't figure out how people think AI is going to destroy things. Unless we connect AI to actual machines, or we let AI re-wire our brains like Dollhouse (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1135300/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_dollhouse), or we just blindly follow instructions from AI without checking it first, there's just no physical mechanism by which AI can effect any change.
So if AI does "destroy the world" - it's the fault of whoever connects it to actuators.
I think the Dollhouse scenario is probably the most entertaining to be honest.
Quote
or we just blindly follow instructions from AI without checking it first,Unironically I see this as the main issue. Startups do it constantly but even tech giants keep using their Algorithms in ways which optimize for profit without proper regard for consequences. Then keep trying to patch the consequences (when forced to by public outcry and even congressional hearings)
The threat is that a reliable AI honestly says "Do this and you'll make a profit", we do it without knowing its internal logic, and people systematically get hurt in obscure ways. That's not a hypothetical scenario anymore, it's a daily occurrence.
Post by: Starver on November 05, 2023, 08:16:13 am
When a person had to (say) add keywords to look for in submitted text to link someone "probably discussing getting a new kitchen" to ads for some relevent company (who was paying for placement), it was perhaps a shotgun approach if the advertiser was willing to pay for each 'shot' in the dark that they thought might help them ("sink", maybe - unless it was boat-related; "dishes" - satellites, or just eating out; "surface" - nautical/mathematical?) and tit woud be a complexity of regexping something like "I don't really have enough room by my sink to dry all my dishes, I end up spreading them over the nearby work surfaces" ( <= contrived example! ) to know that some kitchen redesign outlet might like to convey an ad to that person.
Left alone to a learning algorithm that enumerates whether a person who exhibits certain interactions is more likely to be susceptible to certain messages than others (or even add to that some additional push-choices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A/B_testing)) creates a chimeric situation where it might establish that speaking in a general feminine way is part of the selection criteria (because Real Life Is Biased), and yet nobody will really know this without exporting (and comprehending) the complex net of logical associations that had been formed over the time it was ennumerating what it thought were necessary parts of the process. (Which, by the way, could have as easily been as random as a Skinner Box experiment generating synchronicity and 'ritual-behaviour' in test subjects.)
On the odd occasion I have had the opportunity (and inclinaton) to check "why am I being served this ad?", I've not usually found it convincing. I don't really question why I'm getting Youtube suggestions about things SpaceX (because I'll readily view that kind of thing), but that's just the most logical. I don't know if it's teasing/testing me with other things, or has the wrong end of the wrong stick.
In another context, I've been served ads for islamic dating apps, which I most charitably put down to the same disengagement I have with all other ads from that source (it's ruled out most of the other potential recipients, through active negative reinforcement of some kind, and so desperately dangling a line to see if I'm the kind of person who will bite) or the geolocation is wonky (I've had ads seemingly in Portuguese, Chinese and one or other Cyrillic[1] language, wouldn't be surprised to have been ided as middle-eastern at this other time...).
And if the learning is skewed ("This kind of candidate never usually got past the human interviewers", so the suppsedly 'bias-free' system doesn't even try to put them on the short-list) it might decide based off of something a person might not even understand as tangible (certain short fragments of characters or phonemes in their name, address or past work/education history?). Or even realise, impationately, is just not right at all.
But it goes largely unchecked. Because such an aetherial algorithm as might have useful potential isn't slowly given 'examples', carefully considered by humans and the adjusted weightings then double-checked as both useful and proper. You chuck at it an entire corpus (x-ray images, written works, the answers to whether a whole mass of people thought that various groupings of pixels represent a tractor/octopus/orchid/supernova) and let it swish it around to come up with a recipe that cooks up conclusions that are closely similar to expectations. And decompressing/comrehending the myriad minor nudges that add up to the big final nudge is probably as much work (if done properly) as a basic attempt to code the 'intelligence' in from scratch.
That's just pattern-recognisers and things that other pattern-recognisers consider to have constructed a valid patternnfor. Once we start looking at true innovation and inspiration from our silicon sapiences (a way off, though we're a few steps on the road), I don't think we'd have much hope of understanding the internals without a bridging-technology to (via intermediate AI) summarise what the stew of data actually means (for which, we need to trust the less complex program).
Oh, what a rabbit-hole..! Which we've certainly stuck our head down. We haven't (and may never) get to the point of reaching the Drink Me potion, but there's plenty of problems not that far out of reach (and actually already there).
[1] I presume Ukrainian... It seemed to be an ad for studying at a major UK university, and was well into the current invasion-era when people were not even listening to Russian composers/putting on Russian plays, let alone inviting Russians to come and stay.
Post by: Laterigrade on November 05, 2023, 11:56:25 am
(https://files.mastodon.social/cache/media_attachments/files/111/322/120/401/152/094/original/342494e91c73f7d2.jpeg)hahaha, I love this, thank you for sharing it, I have stolen it
Post by: Maximum™ on November 06, 2023, 03:12:30 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 06, 2023, 03:22:15 am
Post by: Maximum™ on November 19, 2023, 08:59:11 pm
Post by: McTraveller on November 19, 2023, 09:06:51 pm
I’ve never listened to him in reality, only in the AI caricature.
Post by: None on November 19, 2023, 10:14:56 pm
He's also just like a terrible, horrible, awful person that got popular for gish galloping children at college debates and wrote papers advocating, like, turning the middle east into glass in his early twenties. Oh, and the internet is super horny for his
Leaving her aside, he's a stupid bitch.
take a bullet for you, babe
Post by: Maximum™ on November 19, 2023, 11:53:25 pm
I had him blocked forever and both times I've been banned from shitter it's been when his shit got unblocked and I had to quip that he is and always will be a stupid bitch.
Also... how is he old enough to have an adult kid? His poor unsatisfied wife* had to crap out his shitty kid?
Baffling, dude looks like he's 12.
*HIlariously, he and that Peterson douche have repeatedly talked about how women don't enjoy sex, don't get wet, only pretend to get off, etc, etc, etc.
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 20, 2023, 08:49:26 am
Baffling, dude looks and acts like he's 12.ftfy
Post by: Strongpoint on November 20, 2023, 11:13:57 am
If Peterson may be understandable with his takes about the war in Ukraine (which can be summarized as: Ukrainians, surrender already because nuclear war bad), why the algorithm decided I want to see a disgusting sex trafficker is beyond my understanding
Post by: tps12 on November 22, 2023, 06:55:11 am
Also... how is he old enough to have an adult kid? His poor unsatisfied wife* had to crap out his shitty kid?
Baffling, dude looks like he's 12.
Yeah he's like 40, and was famously a proud adult virgin in the Bush era, I think it's his sister people are horny for.
Post by: Maximum™ on November 22, 2023, 06:58:17 am
Post by: Laterigrade on November 24, 2023, 11:38:17 am
If Peterson may be understandable with his takes about the war in Ukraine (which can be summarized as: Ukrainians, surrender already because nuclear war bad)oh, jesus, is that really his take? if I hadn’t already lost the respect I used to have for him a good while ago, I’d lose it right here and now
I swear he’s just being a contrarian, these days
Post by: Strongpoint on November 24, 2023, 03:02:08 pm
If Peterson may be understandable with his takes about the war in Ukraine (which can be summarized as: Ukrainians, surrender already because nuclear war bad)oh, jesus, is that really his take? if I hadn’t already lost the respect I used to have for him a good while ago, I’d lose it right here and now
I swear he’s just being a contrarian, these days
Well, I hyperbolized (Peterson is anything but a guy who speaks in simple slogans) but yeah, he talks a lot about the dangers of possible nuclear war and how Russia should be negotiated with not antagonized.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 24, 2023, 03:51:43 pm
Interview: Eyyy Peterson do you like donuts
Kermit the frog: Well... It depends on exactly what you mean by donuts... If we examine the epistemology of donuts we come across several different symbolisms which one person may call a donut... Does a donut need a hole, for example? Most people would agree a donut needs a hole, but I just bought a donut that was filled with jam and had no hole. But if we define that as also being a donut, where does a donut begin and a cake end? Is a dry donut really just a bagel? So you're really being overly-reductive, in that you're asking a black or white question looking for a black or white answer, in what is a highly grey situation...
Post by: Maximum™ on November 24, 2023, 05:01:11 pm
So it's like, Kermit(derogatory) for Peterson vs Kermit(affectionate) for that Bandholz beard guy.
Post by: Starver on November 30, 2023, 06:35:45 am
Quote from: You know who...
What this advertising boycott is going to do is it's going to kill the company,
The whole world will know those advertisers killed the company, and we will document it in great detail.
Displacement! I think some people are surprised it hasn't been killed off before this episode (of him reposting antisemetic memes, then having to backpedal furiously). If it doesn't survive, it may yet be a death of a thousand cuts, but he's ultimately provided most of the blades... Next year/month/week it might be a different 'block' to rant at, as the external force to blame for everything. As it was other things before now (everyone from Twitter staff themseves, on up...).
Post by: MaxTheFox on November 30, 2023, 06:56:15 am
Post by: EuchreJack on November 30, 2023, 07:29:08 am
Post by: King Zultan on December 01, 2023, 01:12:35 am
Post by: lemon10 on December 01, 2023, 01:36:32 am
I doubt it because he's done so much to it at this point that it's reputation is complete garbage and they'd be better off making a whole new site and starting from scratch, which would probably be way cheaper than buying it for whatever ungodly sum of money he'd want for it.If twitter goes bankrupt he probably doesn't have a choice but to sell it given the debts he put on it to buy it.
Also Musks twitter has a terrible rep, that all goes away once new people who won't tolerate Nazis (cause its bad for business) and will pa; the server bills come back and take over.
In the end AFAIK its still a pretty unique service with a ton of potential users, the brand and code is still easily worth billions and as Euchre says will just be revived when the dark heart of X beats its last.
Post by: King Zultan on December 01, 2023, 03:21:05 am
Post by: Strongpoint on December 05, 2023, 03:23:44 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on December 05, 2023, 04:17:08 pm
If he has to sell it after a bankruptcy I bet he's gonna part it out and sell off all the assets instead of the entire thing at once.
Yeah, I really hope muskrat butchers the bastard thing and the internet finally gets rid of it.
Post by: Maximum™ on December 05, 2023, 07:51:46 pm
Post by: King Zultan on December 06, 2023, 02:36:32 am
Also what made you chooses those two things to post to get you banned?
Post by: Starver on December 06, 2023, 05:55:25 am
It doesn't mean that police/military won't shoot at you, of course, but choosing your fights was always originally part of the risk/reward system (before the 'storyline' approach might have tied your hands). And there were joys to be had in evading the Harrier-like plane's missiles by flying the full-winged Dodo (with the advantage of being too slow to be intercepted, ironically, given that this is one of the real Harrier's tricks) until you can ditch from it and clean your record, after only provoking the forces of law an order by trespass to get the chase started. (Like forcing the train you hijack, and run backwards for a long run-up, 'through' the track-barrier that you're not yet supposed to pass, over into the other 'forbidden' territories, close enough to the military range that you can pinch the Harrier too, if you're quick enough. I think.)
But it's been a while. Thanks for the nostalgia, though.
Post by: dragdeler on December 06, 2023, 09:49:03 am
Poor man just wants to be relevant for a minute. Not engaging him on the subject (where is just gonna filibuster vague smart sounding shit) and just take up all the air with vulgar insults is the correct course of action.
edit: had to rewatch the trailer... yeah so at one point the cops breach a door and its possible a criminal at the other end got shot, but impossible to tell its like 2 frames, and at the end of the trailer the protagonists brandish a gun... pretty much as I thought they're not going to make marketing material that is all bloody
but also it turns out the "“GTA 5 required shooting police officers in the opening scene. Just couldn’t do it.”" is an older comment, an earlier quick google search left me with the impression that he is concerned with showing cops being shot on X so nevermind it's moot. Nobody cares what he did or didn't play.
Post by: Maximum™ on December 06, 2023, 06:22:15 pm
Either way, right wingers and fascists (but I repeat myself...) are chronically insecure projection factories.
Other fun options include: cucklesaurus bitch, cuckleberry finn, you get the idea.
Post by: Devastator on December 06, 2023, 06:47:36 pm
Either way, right wingers and fascists (but I repeat myself...) are chronically insecure projection factories.
Always the way. Ban everyone keeping track of the bans, claim 'free speech.'
Post by: Mech#4 on December 07, 2023, 12:36:30 am
It's tricky to accomplish, but I believe you don't have to attack police in (at least) GTA 1 and 2.
GTA 1 there are missions that require you to kill police. One of them is killing a police chief, another is killing some before they deliver evidence. It's always been part of the series and the games descend into chaos extremely easily. Everyone is very trigger happy because the games are satirical, cynical takes on real-life.
Post by: Starver on December 07, 2023, 01:05:35 am
[1] In GTA 1 and/or 2 there was certainly the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanism of three factions. You gain reputation with faction A at the expense of losing it for faction B (because that's who faction A's missions tend to target. Likewise raising/recovering rep with B means bothering C. To put yourself in C's good books (again), you have to become troublesome with A, meaning you tailor your ebb and flow to whatever level of antagonism you feel like you can. But you could also just do 'petty car-crime', carefully, to much more slowly grind your progress. Which was a challenge of its own. From memory. Still not quite as sandboxy as you could be in later GTAs (if you didn't want to follow the missions to get the 'good stuff' that they unlocked, like in(/barely-)explicably blocked off areas which you need to visit to find the weapon/vehicle/etc that you desire - and you also didn't want to use the appropriate cheat-code), but you can certainly try not to get the rozzers annoyed with you, almost to a fault... ;)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2023, 09:00:01 am
Post by: hector13 on December 07, 2023, 11:18:46 pm
Post by: Starver on December 07, 2023, 11:39:59 pm
Post by: King Zultan on December 08, 2023, 04:49:19 am
GTA is all about giving yourself cheat codes so your main battle tank can walk on water like Jesus and slam into helicopters like a belligerent magnet frisbee launching HEA rounds whilst every citizen walks around carrying machetes machine guns and rocket launchers (just like the founding fathers intended)My favorite cheat code in GTA was in San Andras was the infinite ammo one because you didn't have to reload with it and you could just spin around in place with the rocket launcher and obliterate everything that dared get close.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 08, 2023, 05:49:41 am
He’s sure not doing himself any favours (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67656437).It's been a bad year for Disney. Hopefully next year will be even worse
When devils and monsters wage war, humans benefit
My favorite cheat code in GTA was in San Andras was the infinite ammo one because you didn't have to reload with it and you could just spin around in place with the rocket launcher and obliterate everything that dared get close.Grand theft beyblade
Post by: Maximum™ on December 08, 2023, 08:38:34 pm
Post by: Mech#4 on December 09, 2023, 12:57:24 am
Post by: dragdeler on December 09, 2023, 04:26:34 am