Post by: notquitethere on December 16, 2019, 10:33:09 am
Procedurally Generated Mafia 3
Proc-Gen Mafia is a normal game of mafia except that the role powers are procedurally generated using this generator (http://playfic.com/games/jojo/power-generator). You could call it semi-open in design, as the source code for the generator will be public at the start of the game. The previous game can be read here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173788.0) Players will be given roles that look like this:
Evil Warp: Once per night you can redirect the actions of your target to a random player.
Elite Vampire: Once per night you can give a random ability to everyone targeting your target.
Friendly Magnet: If someone targets you with a priming they will be given a piece of fruit.
Confused Randomizer: If someone targets you, a random player will morph into your role.
Cryptic Angel: Twice per night you can give an extra vote to a dead player until the next lynch.
Peculiar Skulker: Once per night you can protect your target's target.
Spoiler: Mafia Rules (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Power Clarifications (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Action Resolution (click to show/hide)
Players:
- Superdorf - Mafiakilled N1
- Persus13 - Mafia and survived to the end.
- Dolores - Ignited N2
- TricMagic - Lynched D1
- FallacyofUrist - Lynched D2
- Deus Asmoth - Ignited N2
- Naturegirl1999 - Auto-nightkilled N3
- Shadowclaw777 - Mafiakilled N2
- Icytea31 - Ignited N2
Spoilspec:
- Shakerag
Post by: dolores on December 16, 2019, 11:18:59 am
in
Post by: Superdorf on December 16, 2019, 11:30:33 am
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2019, 11:34:26 am
Post by: notquitethere on December 16, 2019, 01:42:30 pm
Cult Vampire
Once per night you can brainwash a dead player into performing a random action that they're capable of on your target. Action: Brainwash.
Improved Inventor
If someone targets you they will be poisoned.
Some slightly less useful powers that could still have some synergy:
Alienated Skulker
Once per night you can give your vote to your target until the next lynch. Action: Trick.
Cryptic Cavalry
Once per game you can give a newly generated random ability to a dead player. Action: Gift.
King Delayer
Once per night you can inform a random target of their own target. Action: Inform.
And some pretty duff powers:
Corrupt Terrorist
Once per game you can unredirect your target. Action: Save.
Web Addicted Sentry
Once per night you can learn the name of a dead player. Action: Investigate.
Post by: TricMagic on December 16, 2019, 03:12:06 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 16, 2019, 03:47:59 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 16, 2019, 03:56:06 pm
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 16, 2019, 04:39:14 pm
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 16, 2019, 04:52:49 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 16, 2019, 05:40:12 pm
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 16, 2019, 05:58:54 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2019, 06:41:49 pm
Four Masked Chronosavant
Once per night you can redirect the actions of a random target to a random player. Action: Redirect.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 16, 2019, 07:30:38 pm
Evil Recruiter
Once per night you can inform your target of a random player's target. Action: Inform.
Four Masked Psychiatrist
Once per night you can perform a random action that a random person targeting your target is capable of on a random target. Action: Mimic.
Anti Randomizer
Once per night you can cure your target. Action: Save.
Mysterious Reincarnator
Once per night you can redirect the actions of everyone targeting you to a random player. Action: Redirect.
Mild Brainwasher
Once per night you can swap this ability with an ability belonging to your target. Action: Swap.
Radioactive Infiltrator
Twice per night you can poison your target. Action: Poison.
King Redirecter
Twice per day you can cause your target to appear as a random alignment when investigated until the start of the following day. Action: Frame.
Undulating Adventurer
Once per night you can learn the name of a random target. Action: Investigate.
Toony Mason
Once per night you can inform your target's target of a dead player's name. Action: Inform.
Systemic Shuffler
Twice per night you can swap a copy of this ability with an ability belonging to a dead player. Action: Swap.
Corrupt Seeker
Once per night you can prime/ignite your target's target. Action: Prime/Ignite.
Post by: Shakerag on December 17, 2019, 09:34:02 am
Post by: dolores on December 17, 2019, 02:08:34 pm
Inyikes open bold tags I write most of my formatting in manually as well but damn dude you do like to live on the edge
Have you played any mafia before?
Do you need/want anyone to ICpost for you?
Post by: notquitethere on December 17, 2019, 02:52:13 pm
Post by: dolores on December 17, 2019, 05:40:40 pm
exactly 24 hoursur l8 m8
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 17, 2019, 08:18:29 pm
Yes I have played Mafia before with IRL and Town of Salem experience, unless you use IRC Chat instead of Discord, I pretty much know how it worksInyikes open bold tags I write most of my formatting in manually as well but damn dude you do like to live on the edge
Have you played any mafia before?
Do you need/want anyone to ICpost for you?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2019, 04:19:28 am
In a live game, you can tell a lie by focusing on the player, and in Town of Salem, you can count on night abilities to carry the day as well. Neither of those are true in forum Mafia (and in this setup in particular, night abilities are incredibly unreliable unless combined with a strong day game.)
Post by: notquitethere on December 18, 2019, 09:23:31 am
Anyway, watch out for roles being sent. We'll probably start by 6pm GMT.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 09:36:43 am
Moral of the story is don't drink too much coffee and get into sleep debt.Just drink more coffee until your circadian rhythm burns out and you lose the ability to fall asleep if you've been awake for less than 40 hours
It's great
Post by: notquitethere on December 18, 2019, 11:41:20 am
The Dwarf Fortress MMO was finally released 87 years after ToadyOne had first started work on the single-player game. Everyday players were logging in to play as their dwarves, elves, goblins and so forth. In the Bay12 Legacy Fort, a small number of aged players were having a hell of a time fending off a necromancer faction from the outside. It was like there were insiders working against them from within. Hammering would continue until morale improved.
Alive
- Superdorf
- Persus13
- Dolores
- TricMagic
- FallacyofUrist
- Deus Asmoth
- Naturegirl1999
- Shadowclaw777
- Icytea31
Spoiler: Current Source Code (click to show/hide)
Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 11:50:09 am
Persus13: Who here would be least dangerous as a serial killer?
Dolores: What's the stupidest thing you expect to see happen this game?
TricMagic: How has your scum-play differentiated from your town-play in past games?
FallacyofUrist: If you had to cast a hammervote *right now*, who would you lynch? Why?
Deus Asmoth: If you could learn the role of one player right now, who would you choose? Why?
Naturegirl1999: How do you expect your play this game to differ from your last?
Shadowclaw777: How will you be adapting to the slower play here?
Icytea31: Who here do you expect to butt heads with most, these coming Days?
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 12:06:56 pm
Naturegirl1999: How do you expect your play this game to differ from your last?I will attempt to ask more questions
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 12:09:48 pm
Dolores: What's the stupidest thing you expect to see happen this game?I was writing something pretty fucking mean spirited but let's not jynx it
My biggest concern is there's gonna be someone with an information ability that's not actually helpful and they're going to sit on it and refuse to do any daywork, and try to drag other people into (not doing anything useful) on D2 onwards
Whatever, my role is super broken. Unless I really fuck up or scum have some extra spicy rolls, it'll be fine mechanically
I have a vision that we're going to spend a lot of D1 trying to lynch a cop, but that's usually an honest mistake so I wouldn't really call that dumb.
They're good questions. 9/10
The -1 point is for asking me a question which is likely to stir up metadrama. My intuition tells me it's by accident and not malicious.
Superdorf: how will you distinguish between a lazy cop player leaning on their power and scum this D1? What will you do to get a cop player to stop being lazy and engage with the daygame?
Naturegirl1999: why do I keep harping on about cops? What does this tell you about my role? Why did you say you'll attempt to ask more questions, and not ask any questions?
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 12:21:22 pm
Naturegirl1999: why do I keep harping on about cops? What does this tell you about my role? Why did you say you'll attempt to ask more questions, and not ask any questions?I’m thinking your role has something to do with cops, maybe it triggers when a cop has you as their target? Maybe you’re a cop? Maybe your role causes your target to be seen as a cop even if they might not be? Proc gen roles could be lots of things. I’m thinking on questions. Previous questions I asked in the last game seem to have been unhelpful. I want to make sure my questions aren’t useless
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 12:28:50 pm
Persus13: theres a developing duologue between myself and ICT about the importance of intentionally disruptive play as scum. Do you think it's reasonable to interpret emotionally manipulative tactics as scummy? Does this only apply to certain players, or to everyone?
notquitethere: why is the order of players in the list 231456789?
TricMagic: in the previous game I played with you, you presented arguments which seemed totally illogical to me when you were playing scum, almost like you were taking the basis of a town game and just flipping the voting pattern/reads resulting from that. How will you play better this time as scum?
FallacyofUrist: I'm pidgeonholing Tric as scum preemptively even though he's a ostensibly a weaker player. Does it bother you that I'm setting up a lynch on someone who, theoretically, I don't need any help constructing a theoretical case on if he is actually scum?
Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?
Icytea31: you're a cop who has received a guilty result on a player your get tells you is 100% town. No other players have claimed and it's D2. How do you proceed?
Shadowclaw777: unlike ICT, I don't really believe in thinking about what you're saying. If you just write out a stream of consciousness, and you're town, you'll like like town. If you're not town, well, feel free to let us know. I'm looking for you to start RVS with a list of questions like superdorf had. If you can also do some crazy off the wall batshit play to stir up action, that's great too. I'm giving you pride of place, cos it's the easiest to get out of the D1 lynch if you're a RVS bandwagon target, especially because I, for one, don't like short D1s when I'm not scum. Or when I'm scum and don't know the other player's roles. Or in general, honestly. D1 is my favorite day.
Naturegirl1999: how can we prevent this focus on a possibly weaker foreign player that I've just created from sapping our ability to exert pressure on other players in the thread? Does pressure like that even matter, or does a 4mask catching trap where scum are outed by their lack of motion when not under the light work better?
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 12:35:35 pm
Superdorf: how will you distinguish between a lazy cop player leaning on their power and scum this D1? What will you do to get a cop player to stop being lazy and engage with the daygame?
I'm... not sure. The two are depressingly similar in-thread... I'd expect a lazy-cop to at least poke folks they're not planning on investigating that night? Maybe? There are subtleties here I've little skill in.
If I were to spot a lazy player, I'd to try and prod them in-thread: gently at first, not-so-gently as time wears on. Eventually-- barring a more urgent case-- I'd call them out as scum, and place my vote accordingly. That holds true regardless of said lazy player's alignment.
New question: why claim a powerful role early on, thus painting a target on yourself?
Wonder of wonders, I've got-- of all things-- concrete D1 mechanical information!
There is a Save ability in play.
There is a Brainwash ability in play.
There is an Infect ability in play.
There are at least two Prime/Ignite abilities in play.
PPE: More material from dolores; I'll address that next post.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 12:37:28 pm
How did you determine this mechanical information?Superdorf: how will you distinguish between a lazy cop player leaning on their power and scum this D1? What will you do to get a cop player to stop being lazy and engage with the daygame?
I'm... not sure. The two are depressingly similar in-thread... I'd expect a lazy-cop to at least poke folks they're not planning on investigating that night? Maybe? There are subtleties here I've little skill in.
If I were to spot a lazy player, I'd to try and prod them in-thread: gently at first, not-so-gently as time wears on. Eventually-- barring a more urgent case-- I'd call them out as scum, and place my vote accordingly. That holds true regardless of said lazy player's alignment.
New question: why claim a powerful role early on, thus painting a target on yourself?
Wonder of wonders, I've got-- of all things-- concrete D1 mechanical information!
There is a Save ability in play.
There is a Brainwash ability in play.
There is an Infect ability in play.
There are at least two Prime/Ignite abilities in play.
PPE: More material from dolores; I'll address that next post.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 12:43:57 pm
New question: why claim a powerful role early on, thus painting a target on yourself?Maybe that's my intention?
Wonder of wonders, I've got-- of all things-- concrete D1 mechanical information!ｄｕｄｅ
are you a wizard?
There is a Save ability in play.The 'at least two' suggests this isn't an exclusive list. It's more than half the players (rounded down, which it is) so I guess it's half the powers?
There is a Brainwash ability in play.
There is an Infect ability in play.
There are at least two Prime/Ignite abilities in play.
Super not cool with there being an infect ability in play.
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 01:04:49 pm
Superdorf: any particular meta tells (regarding other players) you feel it's important to highlight now for the benefit of those players who aren't aware of them?
Well let's see now...
- TricMagic has in past been rather erratic with his posting, giving him a scummy appearance regardless of his alignment.
- Naturegirl's relatively new to the mafia scene, and possibly unsure how to go about a scumhunt. (Mind, I've only ever seen her scum-game.)
- I bluster more than Naturegirl does, but I'm pretty new here myself; I'm clumsy with my scumhunting and I tend to shut down when put to pressure. (These are aspects of my play I should like to improve on.)
How did you determine this mechanical information?I got lucky with the proc-gen! :D
The 'at least two' suggests this isn't an exclusive list. It's more than half the players (rounded down, which it is) so I guess it's half the powers?I'm not sure, but I think I got a randomly chosen list of half the powers, then got a second randomly chosen list of half the powers.
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2019, 01:18:08 pm
Shadowclaw: Nice to see a new face, but that probably means you're going to be getting a fair amount of attention right out of the gate. How do you think you'll handle that?
Deus Asmoth: Census or random inspect, which would you rather have?
Superdorf:
Persus13: Who here would be least dangerous as a serial killer?There isn't really anyone here that I'd describe as being easy to out as an SK, and Shadowclaw I know very little about. Whereas I'm pretty low key in general and don't really like playing SKs, so I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly good at it. So probably me?
How do you feel about your confidence level now that you've gotten some more games under your belt? Did you feel nervous about dropping that census info? What are you looking forward to in this game?
Naturegirl:
I’m thinking your role has something to do with cops, maybe it triggers when a cop has you as their target? Maybe you’re a cop? Maybe your role causes your target to be seen as a cop even if they might not be? Proc gen roles could be lots of things. I’m thinking on questions. Previous questions I asked in the last game seem to have been unhelpful. I want to make sure my questions aren’t uselessFYI, the code for the generator is freely available, so you can actually look at the code to determine what role combinations are possible. Of course, if you think someone is town, speculating on their role in thread might not be wise.
dolores:
Persus13: theres a developing duologue between myself and ICT about the importance of intentionally disruptive play as scum. Do you think it's reasonable to interpret emotionally manipulative tactics as scummy? Does this only apply to certain players, or to everyone?Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Mafia tactics are usually something I'm not super fond of theory crafting over, mainly because they do tend to vary from person to person though.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 01:31:32 pm
FYI, the code for the generator is freely available, so you can actually look at the code to determine what role combinations are possible. Of course, if you think someone is town, speculating on their role in thread might not be wise.It's way more pressing that NG put together their RVS questions.
That said, I'm going to have to disagree with you on speculating on town player's roles. Scum are doing the same thing, except they have a scumchat and the list of their own roles (and the knowledge that the player isn't scum) to do it with. Speculating on roles in thread is a bad idea if it's wifom, which is virtually always is, but it's not, like, dangerous to the person in a way that what they have done to out themselves isn't dangerous to them in the first place.
Plus, it tells me what they're thinking.
Superdorf thinks there's a target on me. I'm happy with that. You can speculate why, but if you do so in thread you won't be exposing me. I think you'd be wasting space, though.
Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Mafia tactics are usually something I'm not super fond of theory crafting over, mainly because they do tend to vary from person to person though.Right, it's a reference to a series of discussions in threads I guess you didn't read. Let me try again.
Persus13: you've suggested the idea to Naturegirl to look at the role generator instead of engaging with the daygame. Was this your intention? If not, how could you let this happen?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2019, 01:41:52 pm
Who here do you expect to butt heads with most, these coming Days?The veteran players, at least in a standard game. In a setup as weird as this, predictions are hard to make.
Which would you consider to be more important in a game like this: to know someone's abilities, or to know someone's alignment?
Naturegirl1999:
I haven't read my role PM yet. Why do you think that is?
you're a cop who has received a guilty result on a player your get tells you is 100% town. No other players have claimed and it's D2. How do you proceed?Is this your miller claim?
Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.In TricMagic's ByoS Mafia, I faked flipping the table and leaving the game. I didn't tell dolores, my then-scumbuddy about the strategy in order to keep things realistic. It was an admittedly very dirty move that led to an already-apathetic town to die with a whimper. It won the game, but it's not a strategy I'm going to repeat anytime soon.
With that context in mind, how important do you believe gauging other players' emotional states is for scumhunting?
FallacyofUrist:
Why am I not asking TricMagic a question?
Deus Asmoth:
If you were a dayvig, what would be the least scummy statement one could make that would make you shoot them immediately regardless of past scumminess or lack thereof?
Shadowclaw777:
What number am I thinking of? Why is it important to this game?
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 01:53:01 pm
How do you feel about your confidence level now that you've gotten some more games under your belt?
On the one hand, I begin to develop a feel for the progression of these games. On the other hand... I've no idea whether I'll be able to keep up with the pace as things grow heated around here, and the thought of messing up on anything still worries me greatly. But we'll see what happens!
Did you feel nervous about dropping that census info?
About the census info? Nah. I've got an extra chance to be useful, right from the game's start! This is great!
I did consider for a minute whether it'd be better to wait for more words before I said anything. In the end, I decided the more information we have the sooner the better.
What are you looking forward to in this game?
- Building a scum-case on somebody, and being right. That would be nice.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 01:55:30 pm
I wasn't aware that there are millers in this. I'm also not going to check to see if there actually are.you're a cop who has received a guilty result on a player your get tells you is 100% town. No other players have claimed and it's D2. How do you proceed?Is this your miller claim?
Sure, I'm a miller. I'm a miller in every game, why not. Why would you ever not claim miller.
If I'm 100% town, that means I'm immune to nightkills. Am I immune to nightkills, ICT?
Also, any thoughts on players not voting so far in the random voting stage?
I don't normally like mechanical discussion in general, not least on D1. Why am I being such a hypocrite and making a claim play?
Superdorf
Other than feeding me a question right away, you've done nothing but answer questions since your RVS questions.
Why haven't you asked any more questions? Is there nothing that's transpired so far that you want more information on?
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2019, 02:02:38 pm
I let it happen because this question is ridiculous. Telling a player to familiarize themselves with the moving parts of how a game works is not telling them not to interact with the daygame. I like having fun in a game, and other people not knowing the rules of the game is less fun for me.Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Mafia tactics are usually something I'm not super fond of theory crafting over, mainly because they do tend to vary from person to person though.Right, it's a reference to a series of discussions in threads I guess you didn't read. Let me try again.
Persus13: you've suggested the idea to Naturegirl to look at the role generator instead of engaging with the daygame. Was this your intention? If not, how could you let this happen?
IcyTea:
Okay, that crosses a line because it means emotionally vulnerable people can't actually get support because people think they are scum. Like I would probably ban you from playing in a game I ran unless you apologized.Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.In TricMagic's ByoS Mafia, I faked flipping the table and leaving the game. I didn't tell dolores, my then-scumbuddy about the strategy in order to keep things realistic. It was an admittedly very dirty move that led to an already-apathetic town to die with a whimper. It won the game, but it's not a strategy I'm going to repeat anytime soon.
With that context in mind, how important do you believe gauging other players' emotional states is for scumhunting?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2019, 02:13:54 pm
If I'm 100% town, that means I'm immune to nightkills. Am I immune to nightkills, ICT?I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you mean a mechanical immunity, where kills don't work, or a social immunity, where kills are not attempted?
Also, any thoughts on players not voting so far in the random voting stage?
I don't normally like mechanical discussion in general, not least on D1. Why am I being such a hypocrite and making a claim play?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see a reason to wave my vote around like a helicopter-dick while less powerful techniques still work. The first vote a player places in a game is powerful, so I'll give a gentle push first to see who needs the vote to get them talking.
Because you're not making a claim play.
Like I would probably ban you from playing in a game I ran unless you apologized.I'm sorry for what I did in that past game. Why does it make me a vote-target in this one?
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 02:23:57 pm
IcyTea:That's been the state of the meta since well before IcyTea's play. I blame Flabort and Tiruin, but that's just because Flabort did the reverse and made an AtE as scum (cult) after I'd caught them as vig and I quit rather than bull through it because I wasn't sure if it was artificial or not. The more I've looked around, the more it seems to me it's always been like this. At least the way ICT phrased his, it seemed like he was getting mad about the fact that Webadict had been intentionally trolling as town (which he had), and that game was a fucking shitshow without it.
Okay, that crosses a line because it means emotionally vulnerable people can't actually get support because people think they are scum. Like I would probably ban you from playing in a game I ran unless you apologized.
Why are you voting ICT?
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Do you mean a mechanical immunity, where kills don't work, or a social immunity, where kills are not attempted?Mechanical, obviously. The social immunity to kills is to make it look like it's easy to lynch you, which is the opposite of looking 100% town. You can look 100% town and imply a mechanical immunity to kills, but to do that I'd need to look 100% town.
I mean, in this scenario, it's by D2. So that's pretty achievable.
IcyTea31: say you're a town player with some flavor of infect power. Under what circumstances would you not claim D1?
Persus13: you've voted someone who you've not asked any questions to, and who has asked you unanswered relevant questions. Any plans on reeling this in or coming out of this without hostile D1 attention?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2019, 02:35:59 pm
You can look 100% town and imply a mechanical immunity to kills, but to do that I'd need to look 100% town.It's a dangerous assumption to make that obvtown has a trick up their sleeve to protect them (and thus that you shouldn't do anything about them). Of course, in this game everyone has a trick up their sleeve.
Another thing: "100% gut read" is an oxymoron. The D2 situation you originally suggested is impossible to reach. By necessary logic, by the time I have that scumspect, I can no longer trust my gut.
Quote
say you're a town player with some flavor of infect power. Under what circumstances would you not claim D1?You are interested in my role and what I might do with it.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 03:13:20 pm
Naturegirl1999:I’m not sure. I would think it would be beneficial to know what you are. Why would it help you to not know your win condition or abilities or lack thereof?
I haven't read my role PM yet. Why do you think that is?
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 03:49:19 pm
Why would it help you to not know your win condition or abilities or lack thereof?There's at least one easy answer to this. Why don't you speculate on it a little so we've got something to show for how you're thinking?
Where are your RVS questions, Naturegirl1999?
Post by: TricMagic on December 18, 2019, 04:13:47 pm
Note my Role is completely useless this game. Feel free to target me all you like.
Yay
TricMagic: How has your scum-play differentiated from your town-play in past games?
Typically, it hasn't. Though last game I ended up being busier in RL than not, so I was mostly silent.
Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 04:54:41 pm
Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.How about you ask some of your own TricMagic? Everyone here (except for NG, who theoretically will be doing so next time they post) has been able to do so. There's nothing you want to know about the game state?
To note, I kinda wonder how superdorf got that info.huh
(that's not a line of inquiry I'll let you waste time going down, but here's an even better point why are you voicing interests that you aren't doing anything to follow up on)
You don't know anyone's role or alignment, right? What's your plan for landing lynches? Or are you going to be one of those lazy players who leans on their role and does no daywork and loses the game?
Note my Role is completely useless this game.huh
Feel free to target me all you likeThis is at best WIFOM, and easily the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!tric. What, scum!tric does 0 levels of abstraction straightline plays without any sophistication? Yeah, he does. It's such a shock that it's almost hard to believe, but it happens.
Well, you told me to feel free to target you. You're targeted, TricMagic
(Yes, this is unfair on Shadowclaw. He can blame it on Tric. Whatever)
Is that a response or an accusation?say you're a town player with some flavor of infect power. Under what circumstances would you not claim D1?You are interested in my role and what I might do with it.
I'm interested in the infect power because (assuming I'm unlynchable and control the lynch, both of which are basically true by default) it's the only thing which could stop me from winning if I can gut read a 2/7 scumteam.
I'm interested in your alignment, specifically, because you're by far the best scum player here and I strongly suspect you could make it to N2 as scum, a prospect I am distinctly uncomfortable with.
Where are my RVS questions? You know I've got the ability to field them. I don't want to enter N1 without knowing your alignment. Why do you seem content to do the reverse?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 18, 2019, 04:58:20 pm
How will you be adapting to the slower play here?
I use these forums before, I really don’t need a adjusting period, I’m pretty sure I can handle it myself.
Nice to see a new face, but that probably means you're going to be getting a fair amount of attention right out of the gate. How do you think you'll handle that?
I can handle it since I believe I know what I’m doing or fall forwards in a horrible backfire, either one works
What number am I thinking of? Why is it important to this game?
7 because it’s a lucky number, it’s important because that’s the amount of usual town members for 10, don’t know about 9
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 05:01:24 pm
TricMagic
Of all the people who have posted, only two have asked you questions.
Why did you feel the need to skip mine?
TricMagic: in the previous game I played with you, you presented arguments which seemed totally illogical to me when you were playing scum, almost like you were taking the basis of a town game and just flipping the voting pattern/reads resulting from that. How will you play better this time as scum?I've been pretty vocal about how I think lists of RVS questions are
PPE: bleh
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 05:12:08 pm
Also, none of the questions directed at you really help you establish an identity as town (or otherwise) here, just contribute to player's ability to metaread you.
How do you plan on finding and lynching scum on D1? Why haven't you done anything to put this into motion, seeing as you have posted?
Bonus questions: (they're not bonus, you're just in debt cos you did no proactive work in your first post)
Shadowclaw777: thoughts on Persus13 voting for ICT?
Shadowclaw777: some players have made sufficently substantial posts to give an impression in this game. Developed any initial reads yet?
Naturegirl
Naturegirl1999: how can we prevent this focus on a possibly weaker foreign player that I've just created from sapping our ability to exert pressure on other players in the thread? Does pressure like that even matter, or does a 4mask catching trap where scum are outed by their lack of motion when not under the light work better?The above but retooled so it's regarding Tric, considering you ignored it the first time.
Something like:
Naturegirl1999[:/b] how can we prevent this focus on a weaker player with a known metagame from sapping our ability to exert pressure on other players in the thread, such as the foreign player we have no metareads on?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 18, 2019, 05:25:02 pm
Shadowclaw777 now's your chance to find out what's going on with the roles and alignments of other players.1: I establish myself as town, that’s the best information I can give you turn one, I don’t have a investigative power and I doubt random lynching goes in favor for Town, so it might be the best strategy to wait for the investigative roles to do their thing.
Also, none of the questions directed at you really help you establish an identity as town (or otherwise) here, just contribute to player's ability to metaread you.
How do you plan on finding and lynching scum on D1? Why haven't you done anything to put this into motion, seeing as you have posted?
Bonus questions: (they're not bonus, you're just in debt cos you did no proactive work in your first post)
Shadowclaw777: thoughts on Persus13 voting for ICT?
Shadowclaw777: some players have made sufficently substantial posts to give an impression in this game. Developed any initial ready gets?
2: Persus13 voting ICT day one?, might be sketchy that ICT will act so their either a really good town player or trying to hide the fact their scum, as well Perdue may be trying to hide his track as a scum by voting a lynch as well as getting a another kill for scum tonight
3: Besides what I said in question 2, ICT and Persus taking the initiative; maybe TricMagic is hiding his fact he’s scum by saying his ability is useless.
@Dolorus: How good are you when your under pressure?, what’s we get more information as the game progresses, how good do you think are good at bluffing your way or proving your innocence?
@Superdorf That information you pulled at the beginning of the game was very informative, I guess we will have to assume it’s accurate until proven otherwise, so you have a high chance of being town.
@Persus12: If you were town, how would you about another town having a role that can kill people should be used early as possible to get lucky and remove a scum by 3/9 chance or wait until more disclosing information comes online?
I got no other questions sorry
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2019, 05:34:45 pm
TricMagic:
To note, I kinda wonder how superdorf got that info.Are you wondering out loud, or do you find that suspicious? Are you actually going to do anything to follow up whatever this is?
dolores:
Nah, it hasn't been. Tiruin perpetually has internet problems and a busy life, so RL stuff keeping her away has always been a null tell. RL stuff can happen regardless of in game alignment. I'm voting Tea because their behavior is not acceptable. Thanks for pointing out I'd missed a question though.IcyTea:That's been the state of the meta since well before IcyTea's play. I blame Flabort and Tiruin, but that's just because Flabort did the reverse and made an AtE as scum (cult) after I'd caught them as vig and I quit rather than bull through it because I wasn't sure if it was artificial or not. The more I've looked around, the more it seems to me it's always been like this. At least the way ICT phrased his, it seemed like he was getting mad about the fact that Webadict had been intentionally trolling as town (which he had), and that game was a fucking shitshow without it.
Okay, that crosses a line because it means emotionally vulnerable people can't actually get support because people think they are scum. Like I would probably ban you from playing in a game I ran unless you apologized.
Why are you voting ICT?
IcyTea:
With that context in mind, how important do you believe gauging other players' emotional states is for scumhunting?I don't think its important at all. I like playing the game and finding who is lying and seeing weird interactions when people use a generator to churn out roles. I don't like people turning lies into emotional drama and pretending their real life is something its not for the state of an online game. If someone's in a bad emotional state, that should be more important than finding out if they're scum or town in a silly forum game.
Do you plan on telling folks when you've looked at your Role PM?
Shadowclaw: There's some words missing from your question so I don't fully understand it. I assume you're asking me how I would feel about finding out about a town vig?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 18, 2019, 05:35:58 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 18, 2019, 05:42:19 pm
NQT: Would a census of abilities include the role that gave the Census ability as a possible result?Here's what the source code says:
Quote
say "receive a list of [one of]all[or]a third of[or]half[at random] the [one of]alignments[or]role names[or]action type names[at random] [one of]of living players[or]of players, dead and alive[at random]. Action: Census";
There doesn't seem to be any kind of census that would specifically exclude the person taking the census.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 06:23:33 pm
NaturegirlI imagine by broadening focus to more players at once...it is possible to pay attention to multiple players, no one is forcing anyone to exclusively focus on one player at a timeNaturegirl1999: how can we prevent this focus on a possibly weaker foreign player that I've just created from sapping our ability to exert pressure on other players in the thread? Does pressure like that even matter, or does a 4mask catching trap where scum are outed by their lack of motion when not under the light work better?The above but retooled so it's regarding Tric, considering you ignored it the first time.
Something like:
Naturegirl1999[:/b] how can we prevent this focus on a weaker player with a known metagame from sapping our ability to exert pressure on other players in the thread, such as the foreign player we have no metareads on?
Yes I wonder how’d you feel about a town vigilante, this is really an @all question.I’m hoping that if one exists, thst they kill a correct target (not town)
Shadowclaw777:What is the point of asking a question like this? How would determining what number someone thinks of help?
What number am I thinking of? Why is it important to this game?
IcyTea31
Last game you seemed reserved on placing a vote, like you were being cautious. You placed a vote on someone fairly early on. Are you not as cautious this time around?
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 06:27:09 pm
1: I establish myself as town, that’s the best information I can give you turn one, I don’t have a investigative power and I doubt random lynching goes in favor for Town, so it might be the best strategy to wait for the investigative roles to do their thing.Oh boy
What kind of a blasted hellscape is it outside of B12 mafia that people don't know you can find scum on D1?
There are no town investigative roles. Z-e-r-o. Or play like there aren't if you are one. You've seen Superdorf's list and seem to buy into it. Do you see an inspect on there? Me either. Doesn't matter, shouldn't matter, you find scum during the day, not with powers.
I can tell you there's a player I don't want to lynch (Superdorf). There's also a player I do want to lynch (Tricmagic). We're going to lynch a player on every day of this game, and outside of specific situations where we can't avoid passing through mylo without a NL, every day of every game I or any other experienced player is in on this forum. Given that that's the case, let's do our best to optimize our chances by finding which players we probably shouldn't lynch, and more to the point, which ones we definitely should.
You seem to pretty well understand how we're going to go about doing that, though, so thank god. Nice first meaty post, 6.6/10, good job.
2: Persus13 voting ICT day one?, might be sketchy that ICT will act so their either a really good town player or trying to hide the fact their scum, as well Perdue may be trying to hide his track as a scum by voting a lynch as well as getting a another kill for scum tonightNah, we're going to lynch someone today. That's par for the course. My problem with Persus voting for ICT is that he doesn't justify it. We're going to lynch someone, but that person should be the person most likely to be mafscum. Persus has no basis to think that IcyTea might be mafscum, or at least none that he's willing to share with the thread.
@Dolorus: How good are you when your under pressure?, what’s we get more information as the game progresses, how good do you think are good at bluffing your way or proving your innocence?I'm the best
My scum game is actually pretty weak, to my mind, because I can cheat as town and just churn out so much work that other players can see my alignment easily (making myself easy to read), and for obvious reasons that's pretty counterproductive as scum. That said, I'm very good at giving a positive impression on D1 and can usually ride that out without having to rely on actually defending against a well constructed attempt to lynch me based on some series of scumslips.
@Superdorf That information you pulled at the beginning of the game was very informative, I guess we will have to assume it’s accurate until proven otherwise, so you have a high chance of being town.While I don't disagree that Superdorf is leaning towny, I don't attribute this to the information. The information would suggest that he is more likely to be town if we could verify it, but until such a time as a massclaim occurs, that's not really important.
Yes I wonder how’d you feel about a town vigilante, this is really an @all question.Shoot people, don't claim. Doubling up with the scumkill or primes or whatever is great, saves on dead townies. Claiming is super bad if there's a brainwash which is something like a straightforward redirect on scum. If it's something like prime or poison, you'll have to claim if the person is likely to be lynched and you'd be able to kill them instead and they're not the last scum, but that should go without saying.
Nah, it hasn't been. Tiruin perpetually has internet problems and a busy life, so RL stuff keeping her away has always been a null tell. RL stuff can happen regardless of in game alignment.It has. I was also referring to other forums when I said that, though it's definitely always been present on B12. I never said anything about Tiruin's inactivity (I'm refering to something totally different), but since you bring it up, what you've said is also bullshit. There are plenty of examples of Tiruin losing internet, regaining internet, posting in scumchat, and people just letting them ride out lurking because we were worried she drowned or something. Anyway, I'm not here to write a manifesto about the exploitive behavior of people who aren't in this game and which, honestly, doesn't bother me now that I know to show less tact.
I'm voting Tea because their behavior is not acceptable.Go fuck yourself. Your behavior is not acceptable. If you've got a metagame problem with the behavior of other players hash it out in the banter thread or private messages or something when the game is over. You are literally bringing "people turning lies into emotional drama and pretending their real life is something its not for the state of an online game" into the game. If you're telling me that all I need to do to get you to vote for a player in the future is make up a sob story about how they were mean to me in an earlier game, why would I ever not do that? People take advantage of this because you leave it there to be taken advantage of, and because of that we have to keep dealing with it in every second game.
Lynch someone who you can justify as being probably scum.
I don't like people turning lies into emotional drama and pretending their real life is something its not for the state of an online game.Right, so let's stop paying attention to and making AtE's and just play the game and it can stop happening or backfire or whatever.
You're literally claiming to be offended and trying to use it as the basis to lynch someone. That's making drama and forcing it into the game. That's you. Nobody else.
If someone's in a bad emotional state, that should be more important than finding out if they're scum or town in a silly forum game.First of all, go fuck yourself. How can you think that a game of mafia is not emotionally intensive? People are going to get invested, always. You can't avoid it. The game can't exist if we stop playing every time someone gets sad that they're losing.
As an aside, the presumption that you'd to decide to throw out the thousands of dollars (of hours invested in each game) of other people's time and effort for a pat on the back is just poor planning. Run a charity drive and pay for therapy or something, whatever works for you.
There you go, three paragraphs that have literally zero to do with the game. For all I know, and for all I've experienced in the past, you may as well be pretending to be offended to hide the fact that you actually want to lynch ICT because he's a strong town player and you're panicking scum. You don't get to get offended, because we're doing this because you decided to lynch someone based on drama.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2019, 06:46:49 pm
Is that a response or an accusation?It's an observation which dodges the question without answering it.
I don't want to enter N1 without knowing your alignment. Why do you seem content to do the reverse?
Don't worry, I'll read my PM before the day ends, just in case there's a day-inspect there or something. Is there a possible situation in which I'd want to enter N1 without you knowing or "knowing" me to be town?
I can tell you there's a player I don't want to lynch (Superdorf).Are you sure? Abilities aren't alignment-indicative, especially day-abilities. Personally I just dismissed the census as WIFOM for this early in the game.
I'm voting Tea because their behavior is not acceptable.What part of my behaviour, in this particular game, has been unacceptable?
I don't think its important at all. --
Do you plan on telling folks when you've looked at your Role PM?
So you believe that any individual player's posts are equally scummy or towny regardless of whether they're happy or sad when making those posts?
You'll probably notice a change. If I'm town, I'll suddenly become really townish. If I'm scum, I'll suddenly become really townish.
Spoiler: Sincerity Mode (click to show/hide)
Yes I wonder how’d you feel about a town vigilante, this is really an @all question.Vigging is a careful art. A standard use case is figuring out that one of two players is scum, then lynching one and shooting the other if it was a mislynch; in other words one wants to be as certain as possible of their target. A careless vig will very quickly swing the game against the town.
What is the point of asking a question like this? How would determining what number someone thinks of help?What is the point of any RVS question? By telling someone to pick a number and to tell why it's important to the game, I gain insight to their creativity and to what they think of the game, and get them talking so I can grill them for something useful later. It's to start a conversation, not because I particularly care what the answer is.
Last game you seemed reserved on placing a vote, like you were being cautious. You placed a vote on someone fairly early on. Are you not as cautious this time around?
I think you've got the wrong person for the second question. I haven't placed a vote on anyone yet.
Post by: dolores on December 18, 2019, 07:00:04 pm
Don't worry, I'll read my PM before the day ends, just in case there's a day-inspect there or something.Right, I forgot about that.
Doesn't really make a difference though, right? There's no reason you can't convince me you're town without having looked at your pm.
Is there a possible situation in which I'd want to enter N1 without you knowing or "knowing" me to be town?Some sort of paranoid gun vet baiting out town abilities maybe?
Alternatively, you're dodging the scumkill and need your lynching to appear accessible for D2, and consequently don't want a line of glowing townreads putting you in first place for the kill.
Are you sure? Abilities aren't alignment-indicative, especially day-abilities. Personally I just dismissed the census as WIFOM for this early in the game.The census is WIFOM. (I also find it funny that it's five abilities, which doesn't have a particularly simple way to construct that Superdorf has claimed)
I just like how he's been playing. I don't feel particularly strongly about it, but it's just the strongest impression I've got so far on D1 so it's what I'm going to use as my example when I'm talking about townreading players today in the abstract sense.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 07:20:34 pm
Quote from: IcyTea31
I think you've got the wrong person for the second question. I haven't placed a vote on anyone yet.Sorry about that, I will reread the posts and ask the question to the correct person
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 18, 2019, 07:23:44 pm
I remember in a previous game you were more careful with voting. What made you vote IcyTea31?
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 08:56:12 pm
Superdorf
Other than feeding me a question right away, you've done nothing but answer questions since your RVS questions.
Why haven't you asked any more questions? Is there nothing that's transpired so far that you want more information on?
I tend to take a long time constructing posts, and I try to answer questions directed at me before I ask more. These two things together, and the blistering pace things were progressing this afternoon... I couldn't keep up! I'll be looking to step forward a bit, now things have slowed down.
You've seen Superdorf's list and seem to buy into it. Do you see an inspect on there? Me either.I'll just point out that the list I got is incomplete: maybe there's an inspect-role in play; maybe there isn't. I don't know, and right now I don't particularly care.
The census is WIFOM.Right now, with no kills or anything to back it up? The census is indeed WIFOM. I just wanted it out so it won't get lost if I die or something.
IcyTea31
Clarify for me please: is this an answer or an accusation?Quotesay you're a town player with some flavor of infect power. Under what circumstances would you not claim D1?You are interested in my role and what I might do with it.
Shadowclaw777
1: I establish myself as town, that’s the best information I can give you turn one, I don’t have a investigative power and I doubt random lynching goes in favor for Town, so it might be the best strategy to wait for the investigative roles to do their thing.
Your power (or lack thereof) means nothing. You are here, you have a voice, and with that voice you can now determine who is scum and who is not.
Random lynching is indeed counterproductive for us. We're not doing that. We are using our voices to generate as much relevant material as possible, and we are assessing the voice of each player to determine their motives in speaking. By Day's end, we'll hopefully have the beginnings of an idea of who's working towards town ends and who is not... so long as people like me, and people like you, speak and observe and question and accuse.
2: Persus13 voting ICT day one?, might be sketchy that ICT will act so their either a really good town player or trying to hide the fact their scum, as well Perdue may be trying to hide his track as a scum by voting a lynch as well as getting a another kill for scum tonight
3: Besides what I said in question 2, ICT and Persus taking the initiative; maybe TricMagic is hiding his fact he’s scum by saying his ability is useless.
These are decent observations. Now ask each of those you've accused to explain their actions. Their answers will help us all to understand their motivations.
Persus13: I need words from you. Is IcyTea scum? If so, why? If not, why are you voting him? "I don't like the thing he did as scum that one time" is not an acceptable answer.
TricMagic: Why are you claiming a "useless" role so early?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 18, 2019, 09:13:26 pm
FallacyofUrist: If you had to cast a hammervote *right now*, who would you lynch? Why?Your post here has the distinction of being the very first post made during this game. If I were to answer as though the game was in the state it was when you made that post, I would be very out of luck, possessing no data to base my guess upon. I would choose any player but myself at random - the term of your hypothetical says right now after all.
Now, if we take the phrase 'right now' to mean 'at the time of answering this question'... then it would be logical to say that I should hammer vote whoever looks the most opposed to town, yes?
So I will answer this question at the end of this post.
FallacyofUrist: I'm pidgeonholing Tric as scum preemptively even though he's a ostensibly a weaker player. Does it bother you that I'm setting up a lynch on someone who, theoretically, I don't need any help constructing a theoretical case on if he is actually scum?Your question is convoluted but I will endeavor to answer it as best I can.
No, it doesn't bother me.
This is the very early stages of the game. Nothing decided here is anywhere near certain as of yet.
There is a Save ability in play.Supplying information about the state of the game that will allow for improved narrowing down of suspects. Much appreciated - assuming of course the information is true.
There is a Brainwash ability in play.
There is an Infect ability in play.
There are at least two Prime/Ignite abilities in play.
Superdorf: By doing this you have made yourself a potential mafia target, if you are town-aligned, as the mafia will not want this information to be available to the player base. Isn't this... a bit risky? Valuable yes, but potentially risky. Of course if you were mafia you would have nothing to fear.
I'm not sure, but I think I got a randomly chosen list of half the powers, then got a second randomly chosen list of half the powers.How are you not certain of this?
Naturegirl1999:Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.
I haven't read my role PM yet. Why do you think that is?
Primarily because:
1) It casts doubt into the minds of anyone attempting to get a read on you. In fact it makes it impossible to get a true read, as you are not acting according to what your role is.
2) It taints the reads of people who try to get a read on you later, as they will take into account the portion of time where you had not looked at your PM. Even if they attempt to ignore it, their subconscious read on you will be influenced by what they've already seen of you.
FallacyofUrist:Because you do not believe you'll get a useful answer. Or at the very least that's my guess. I'm not a telepath.
Why am I not asking TricMagic a question?
Note my Role is completely useless this game. Feel free to target me all you like.I suspect the fact that TricMagic mentioned other players targeting him is a slip of some kind.
1: I establish myself as town, that’s the best information I can give you turn one, I don’t have a investigative power and I doubt random lynching goes in favor for Town, so it might be the best strategy to wait for the investigative roles to do their thing.You seem to be assuming that day lynching without investigative powers to back it up is random. This is not the case. Through careful investigation the town players can heavily bias the chances towards lynching a mafia player.
Superdorf: To answer your first question I would hammervote IcyTea if I had to, due to the previously mentioned issues with not reading his role PM. And while I may not be able to hammer I can of course simply vote him.
~~~
Spoiler: Aside (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 18, 2019, 09:50:57 pm
Yeah usually the Mafia Games I play have a day one night before the lynching, because it kinda makes sense to lynch people based on actual murder rather than conspiracy of murder night one. Obviously IceyTea has been suspicious and really hasn’t done anything beneficial to alleviate, unless your throwing why not confirm with other towns that you aren’t a scum?. I already told you suspicions based on the knowledge we got from this thread
IceyTea hasn’t even read his role yet and hasn’t done much to make him not suspicious to the town, and Tric confirms a useless role and doesn’t tell what the role does, either he’s hiding a powerful role he doesn’t want scum to know and use it for latter or is a scum in hiding. What other suspicions do we have?, that Persus was aggressive with voting or something?
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 09:51:46 pm
FallacyofUrist: If you had to cast a hammervote *right now*, who would you lynch? Why?Your post here has the distinction of being the very first post made during this game. If I were to answer as though the game was in the state it was when you made that post, I would be very out of luck, possessing no data to base my guess upon. I would choose any player but myself at random - the term of your hypothetical says right now after all.
Now, if we take the phrase 'right now' to mean 'at the time of answering this question'... then it would be logical to say that I should hammer vote whoever looks the most opposed to town, yes?
So I will answer this question at the end of this post.
I was hoping to gain insight into which of us you consider least helpful as town, or most dangerous as scum, or some combination of the two-- under the assumption you'd be answering without additional information. (An oversight on my part!)
It was an RVS question, nothing more.
Superdorf: By doing this you have made yourself a potential mafia target, if you are town-aligned, as the mafia will not want this information to be available to the player base. Isn't this... a bit risky? Valuable yes, but potentially risky.
Ahh, but here's the beautiful thing. If mafia decides to kill me now that I've had my say... I'll have had my say! My death will confirm the veracity of my information!
I've set a delightful little "choose-the-lesser-of-two-evils" situation for mafia, and I've made D1 a little more interesting for all of us. Maybe there's a more optimal path I could have taken... but I'm quite content with this one. ^-^
I'm not sure, but I think I got a randomly chosen list of half the powers, then got a second randomly chosen list of half the powers.How are you not certain of this?
I was told I could get a list of half the action names in play-- I was not told how that list was selected. I'm working under the assumption that it's random, but I don't know for sure.
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 10:00:53 pm
Okay I feel like this “emotional manipulation” stuff is really useless, your going directly againstthe person itself rather than the “character”, and by that I mean town or “scum”, which I believe their is 3 scum out of the nine, or two or four, don’t know. Anyways, I feel like the problem is that people are being vindictive on the previous mafia games they had, and clouding their judgement on past Salt.Welcome to Bay12 mafia. =P
What other suspicions do we have?, that Persus was aggressive with voting or something?
Your choice of words concerns me. You speak of suspicions "we" have-- why the "we"? Why so quick to take up others' suspicions as your own? Devise your own suspicions, and question accordingly.
But to clarify: Persus voted IcyTea because (if I'm understanding correctly) of the unscrupulous "emotional manipulation" IcyTea employed as scum in a past game. This seems an illogical reason to vote someone-- hence the suspicion.
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 10:17:59 pm
Naturegirl1999: It suddenly occurs to me that I really want more words out of you. Who are you looking at right now for a potential lynching? Who comes off as relatively trustworthy?
And uh IcyTea
Is that a response or an accusation?It's an observation which dodges the question without answering it.
I don't want to enter N1 without knowing your alignment. Why do you seem content to do the reverse?
ignore my last question to you please-- I missed this in my evening thread-trawling. ::)
Instead I'm going to ask you the same question I asked dolores, 'cos it's a question I feel all you secretive experienced folk might have worthwhile answers to. When might a town player choose to play with his cards "close to the chest", as it were?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 18, 2019, 10:18:57 pm
Ahh, but here's the beautiful thing. If mafia decides to kill me now that I've had my say... I'll have had my say! My death will confirm the veracity of my information!The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.
I've set a delightful little "choose-the-lesser-of-two-evils" situation for mafia, and I've made D1 a little more interesting for all of us. Maybe there's a more optimal path I could have taken... but I'm quite content with this one. ^-^
If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.
I was told I could get a list of half the action names in play-- I was not told how that list was selected. I'm working under the assumption that it's random, but I don't know for sure.To clarify my question, I wasn't asking about the randomness of the list, I was asking about the 'second randomly chosen list of half the powers' part. I meant to ask how are you not certain about that part.
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 10:33:03 pm
The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.
That's... fair
I was excited about my role, I was excited about the game starting-- I made my decision like two minutes after I got my role! Maybe... maybe I jumped the gun on this one. :-\
Ah well. I'll just have to get all my scumhunting done ASAP, with readlists and such! We'll see what happens after that.
To clarify my question, I wasn't asking about the randomness of the list, I was asking about the 'second randomly chosen list of half the powers' part. I meant to ask how are you not certain about that part.Ohh. I am certain of that part! I asked for two lists, I got two lists, and I combined the information from both to make my post. I should've made that more clear.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 18, 2019, 11:16:28 pm
Ohh. I am certain of that part! I asked for two lists, I got two lists, and I combined the information from both to make my post. I should've made that more clear.If you don't mind me asking, what were the contents of the individual lists?
Post by: Superdorf on December 18, 2019, 11:52:10 pm
With that, I take my leave for the evening. Happy scumhunting all!
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 19, 2019, 12:27:59 am
Naturegirl1999: It suddenly occurs to me that I really want more words out of you. Who are you looking at right now for a potential lynching? Who comes off as relatively trustworthy?[/quite]
I’m thinking Persus13 might be suspicious due to voting someone based exclusively on past behaviors rather than using behavior in this game and/or comparing behaviors in this game to previous games. Previous games alone are not a valid reason to vote someone for the current game. Possibly Shadowclaw because of minimal posts, however this can be due to newness. Newness could also be a cover for scum, in my first game I was scum. I played like a bad town player who didn’t know what they were doing so they thought I was town. Perhaps Shadowclaw is using a similar strategy? As for who I think is trustworthy, you gave information on roles in the game. If you are indeed telling the truth instead of giving fake information, I would trust you. I also find FallacyofUrist trustworthy due to the many questions.
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2019, 12:49:52 am
Superdorf: By doing this you have made yourself a potential mafia target, if you are town-aligned, as the mafia will not want this information to be available to the player base. Isn't this... a bit risky? Valuable yes, but potentially risky. Of course if you were mafia you would have nothing to fear.The issue with this line of thinking is, what's the Mafia going to do about it? The info is out there, but its not like killing Superdorf will take that away, and roles don't mean anything towards alignment. The only solid bit of info that this gives towards alignment is there might be an SK because they're guaranteed a kill ability of some sort and there's three kill abilities. But that info helps the scumteam as much as it does everyone else. If Superdorf was a day cop than it would be more risky, because he'd have more concrete information to give. Do you actually think there's any evidence of Superdorf being Mafia, or are you just raising the possibility?
Shadow:
Yes I wonder how’d you feel about a town vigilante, this is really an @all question.Town Vigs are pretty great tools for town in the right hands. They're a double-edged sword mainly because they can be misled, or used as cover for third parties/scum. An important thing to remember is that mafia kills are bad not just because they reduce numbers, but because Mafia has control over the information town gets. With a town vig, some of that control is given back to one member of the town.
Yeah usually the Mafia Games I play have a day one night before the lynching, because it kinda makes sense to lynch people based on actual murder rather than conspiracy of murder night one.Bay12 Mafia doesn't usually do that because that means one player doesn't actually get to play. I've seen killless N1s before, but that usually means games have to be balanced to adjust for that.
Tric confirms a useless role and doesn’t tell what the role does, either he’s hiding a powerful role he doesn’t want scum to know and use it for latter or is a scum in hiding.I could also see that as Tric being disappointed in his role, as this is a fairly role heavy game.
Naturegirl:
Persus13I voted ICT to show I was being serious about my comments to them. I'm generally a fan of using my vote to get that player's attention to something I'm talking to them about, and it seems to have worked a little more successfully in this case than I anticipated. I try to avoid using my vote too much to do that, because then people won't take your vote as seriously as they should. Although I think in the case you're thinking of, I was trying to be careful of my vote because of lylo situations.
I remember in a previous game you were more careful with voting. What made you vote IcyTea31?
I noticed you haven't used your vote yet. When do you think you'll be starting to use it?
ICT vote stuff following.
ICT:
What part of my behaviour, in this particular game, has been unacceptable?I don't find any of your current behavior unacceptable. This game does have day powers, so looking to see if you have one might have been useful, but I don't have any gameplay criticisms, and given your decision not to look at your role PM, that's pretty useful for you if you are scum. I'm voting you because voting you would draw your attention, and I wanted you to know I was serious about my comments. I'd be happy to talk more about that after the game.
So you believe that any individual player's posts are equally scummy or towny regardless of whether they're happy or sad when making those posts?My eyes kind of glazed over when I read this. Its a really broad topic and I don't feel like I'll be able to give a proper answer to this because I don't think I'm an adequate judges of people's emotions when posting, since tone is very ambiguous.
You'll probably notice a change. If I'm town, I'll suddenly become really townsh. If I'm scum, I'll suddenly become really townish.I get this is a joke, but do you think you're acting scummy currently?
Spoiler: Sincerity Mode (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Response (click to show/hide)
Dolores:
As an aside, the presumption that you'd to decide to throw out the thousands of dollars (of hours invested in each game) of other people's time and effort for a pat on the back is just poor planning.Yeah, you care way too much about this game then. Take a chill pill. Its completely possible to be nice and play a game where we're killing each other.
Superdorf:
Persus13: I need words from you. Is IcyTea scum? If so, why? If not, why are you voting him? "I don't like the thing he did as scum that one time" is not an acceptable answer.I have no idea if IcyTea is scum yet. I hope to figure that out by the time the game ends. Like I've said to naturegirl and others, I voted ICT to draw attention to what I was saying to them, which was that "I didn't like the thing he did as scum that one time." but I take that pretty seriously. If you want to grab someone's attention, you vote them.
Post by: dolores on December 19, 2019, 03:14:31 am
Don't get me wrong, dumping the census in the thread is 400% the correct action.The census is WIFOM.Right now, with no kills or anything to back it up? The census is indeed WIFOM. I just wanted it out so it won't get lost if I die or something.
The trap is that people do nothing but discuss it, but we've avoided that so we're pretty well in the clear.
Superdorf: By doing this you have made yourself a potential mafia target, if you are town-aligned, as the mafia will not want this information to be available to the player base. Isn't this... a bit risky? Valuable yes, but potentially risky. Of course if you were mafia you would have nothing to fear.?
If Superdorf is nightkilled, it confirms the results of the census for town.
Scum, knowing that Superdorf is town and more than one player's ability, are in a much better position to confirm and use the census right now. A Superdorf flip is only good for the town, alignment notwithstanding.
I suspect the fact that TricMagic mentioned other players targeting him is a slip of some kind.Yeah, I don't like it one bit.
Tric's the kind of guy to legit real post something like that as paranoid vet dopple without a hint of irony.
Spoiler: Aside (click to show/hide)
dolores: Generally speaking, how transparent should a town player strive to be in action and motivation? Conversely, in what situations might a townie reasonably employ gambits, secret ploys, and the like?Play 100% transparently
There's no converse here, run gambits, secret ploys, etc. as town without a second thought
Hypocrisy is a towntell. The problem with most 'gambits' as town is you waste time that could be spent scumhunting, and you draw hostile day attention. I'm too cute to lynch, so that second part is usually a benefit (there's no combination of weaker and stronger players I feel that I couldn't mind control into, if not voting with me, not voting me, over a 72hr period), but if you can't convert a short-term hostility into a failed lynch attempt and subsequent aura of townyness and foundations made of failed arguments and discarded evidence, you're screwing over the town by leading a lynch on a (the only) confirmed townie: yourself.
The difference between scum and town is that town need the lynch to win the game, so anything town does is ultimately going to be about pointing the lynch in the right direction.
Like, I'm a miller, right? I'm obviously not, and I haven't checked if millers can exist, and I won't. Now, that tells you about my role (it doesn't interact with millers), although I could be fronting. The point is, though, that I can tell this like one hundred thousand times and it doesn't matter, because you glance over it and move on, and if a cop inspects me and gets an innocent result, why should I care? If there's some convuluted list of targeting roles and it's actually worth claiming that I don't detect as scum (to use as the basis to lynch another player, who presumably does), then of course I'll contradict my claim.
I have a track record of fullclaiming in the first 48hrs of D2, like, 90% of the time. Honestly, even as scum. That's because I don't think it matters. A confirmed townie who can day-inspect the role and alignment of every player D1 is stronger than any role that actually exists, and that's the upper limit of a good daygame. I also have a track record of fakeclaiming almost every D1. That's because I don't think it matters. Whether or not I play like a cop has infinitely more bearing on whether or not I am likely to be a cop than any claim. Sure, a lot of players softclaim D1 as cops, and that's coplike for them. It's also suboptimal, generally, in my opinion.
Players can't lynch you if you're town and play 100% transparently and make an earnest effort, because no matter how badly you do, you'll come across as town to anyone able to make the reads happen. If you're 100% transparent, all you need is content and they're in the best position to produce the reads.
Playing authentically is a cheat because scum can't do it the same way, and that means that if everyone in town did that and only that, no matter how bad their reads, it would only require a group of observant and charismatic townies to convince as many of the town as there are scum to vote with them to win the game.
This is why I say I'm bad at scum, because I don't think there is counterplay for this. You can try to mire the game in bullshit, but unless you're substantially better than the other players in the game, you'll always come out the most suspicious from it.
The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.This is dumb. The information isn't, like, alignment inspects that the scum already know. Scum get just as much out of the expanded list as we do.
I've got a 1000x more important role. I can tell you that straight up. If scum shoot at Superdorf, they can't shoot at me. (Yes, scum, that's WIFOM. But only for you, so go get drunk in scumchat and leave it out of the thread if you don't want to be called out for it.) This is generalizable.
If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.There's no risk to this gambit. What's the worst that's going to happen, scum kill someone that's close to a vanilla townie? That's the best case scenario for N1. Why does this worry you?
I also find FallacyofUrist trustworthy due to the many questions.What's wrong with asking lots of questions? How else are you going to get information during the day, and find and lynch the scum?
The only solid bit of info that this gives towards alignment is there might be an SK because they're guaranteed a kill ability of some sort and there's three kill abilities.SK is 11+ players, there's no sk. I was thinking the same thing, though.
I voted ICT to draw attention to what I was saying to them, which was that "I didn't like the thing he did as scum that one time." but I take that pretty seriously. If you want to grab someone's attention, you vote them.The problem is that you're not doing anything to give information about ICT's (and kinda your, and my, and anyone else in the conversation's) alignment. You're also drawing attention to this conversation. You're claiming that's a nulltell, and I'd like the believe that it is, but it's not because it's the same as filling the thread with WIFOM or any other useless thing and drawing attention to it. If you were really town and really wanted to win, you wouldn't do it because it would detract from that goal, even if it was important to you (but less important than the game). If you aren't town, and really want to win, you're still going to do it because it's actually in line with your goals. It's dumb, and it doesn't connect to the rest of the game, and I'd hate to make a case around it. But it's unambiguously a scumtell.
How are you planning on determining ICT's alignment? How will you recover from the fact that there's no dialogue between the three of us that's actually relevant to the game beyond a pinch of stray RVS?
I'm the sk, so it doesn't bother me. But if you're town, it has to bother you. Even if you're not that invested, you have to pretend to be, or the game won't work. That's part and parcel of the logic underlying most systems of obtaining reads.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 19, 2019, 05:12:59 am
[Superdorf's play is] what I'm going to use as my example when I'm talking about townreading players today in the abstract sense.Could you follow up on this? I don't like a conclusion my gut is pointing at, and this might help ascertain truth.
Clarify for me please: is this an answer or an accusation?It's a provocation. I've been the target of a D1 grilling several times for asking questions like it. The subtext is "that question looks rolefishy".
When might a town player choose to play with his cards "close to the chest", as it were?As with every sneaky town play: when it wins them the game. It's a careful balance between revealing information to the town, and revealing information to scum, which has to vary as the game goes on. In general situations, however, it's good to be open about one's motivations, and at least telling why you're not revealing something.
Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.1) Is casting doubt about one's townishness an anti-town move? If anything, it encourages others to observe me more carefully. Furthermore, why would I want to be read "truely", role and all? At this point of the game, only scum would benefit from knowing my role, since they could be sure that their read on that was correct.
Primarily because:
1) It casts doubt into the minds of anyone attempting to get a read on you. In fact it makes it impossible to get a true read, as you are not acting according to what your role is.
2) It taints the reads of people who try to get a read on you later, as they will take into account the portion of time where you had not looked at your PM. Even if they attempt to ignore it, their subconscious read on you will be influenced by what they've already seen of you.
2)As town, I don't see a problem with other townies subconsciously believing I'm town. In being open about not reading my PM, I also give others the chance to take it into account later. Surely, it'd be worse if I didn't tell you I wasn't reading it?
If I'm town, there's likely nothing in my PM that will help prove it, which is what town players care about. Scum players care about my specific role, which might shine through my posts unintentionally. D1 towniness comes from scumhunting and thread behaviour, not from mechanical information. There's also likely nothing in my PM that will help me scumhunt.
If I'm scum, I want to be deceptive anyway and giving a "true read" would be counterproductive. On the other hand, not coordinating with scumbuddies may lead to accidental buses etc., but that would be a perfect cover for the remaining scum, no?
How would you prefer I used the information in my PM? What is there to gain from it for me, and for the town as a whole?
I get this is a joke, but do you think you're acting scummy currently?Certainly, but why should I be worried about acting scummy? There has never been an effective town player in this game who wasn't a little scummy. Even a town leader isn't free of power wolf suspicions. As long as I don't slip too far from "scummy" to "lynchable" I should be fine.
I like to enter D1 with wildcard plays and strange gambits, not because it's always effective, but because it creates intrigue and makes people want to keep playing. As they play and speak directly to me about my strange plays, I gain insights to them. Would you prefer if I used a more orthodox D1 strategy? Having all players start oddball would be ineffective, of course, so what would you consider to be the cutoff point for "too many D1 gambits"?
TricMagic:
What do you believe is the correct amount of investment to a game of Mafia? What, in your opinion, makes Mafia different from other forum games?
Post by: dolores on December 19, 2019, 08:24:34 am
I anticipated having to explain the daygame to shadowclaw, and particularly RVS etc.[Superdorf's play is] what I'm going to use as my example when I'm talking about townreading players today in the abstract sense.Could you follow up on this? I don't like a conclusion my gut is pointing at, and this might help ascertain truth.
Superdorf's first post (the first post) was a great example of what I was looking for as a conservative standard RVS. I've sort of got holdover praise from that, since I never really got around to having to make that point. Still my strongest townread, regardless.
I'm remiss that I couldn't make some joke about buddying him, but that's how it goes.
It's a provocation. I've been the target of a D1 grilling several times for asking questions like it. The subtext is "that question looks rolefishy".Right, but it's been established that I'll openly rolefish. You can't note this yourself because it weakens the counter position to me, I get it, but I may as well make the point for Superdorf et. al.
I'm not going to clarify because I'm trying to bait out the nightkill at the moment, and scum!ICT has no choice but to shoot me. I'd like to know which player is aiming at me, and this is an easy way to find out.
Yes, this is a softclaim. I softclaim in all my posts. It's not my fault most of the forum don't seem to know how to read for roles.
As with every sneaky town play: when it wins them the game. It's a careful balance between revealing information to the town, and revealing information to scum, which has to vary as the game goes on. In general situations, however, it's good to be open about one's motivations, and at least telling why you're not revealing something.The word I used last time I was talking about this with weba was 'authenticity', as the existentialists. Town players get to act in line with what they really want and get townread for it.
Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.Alright, I'll bite.
Primarily because:
1) It casts doubt into the minds of anyone attempting to get a read on you. In fact it makes it impossible to get a true read, as you are not acting according to what your role is.
2) It taints the reads of people who try to get a read on you later, as they will take into account the portion of time where you had not looked at your PM. Even if they attempt to ignore it, their subconscious read on you will be influenced by what they've already seen of you.
I haven't read my role PM. There you go. I'm lying, right? You'll never know. Whether or not I tell you if I've read my role PM has no bearing on whether or not I tell you I have. Okay, so I'm not perfect: if I don't read my PM, I'm less likely to comment on whether or not I've read it.
1) Is bullshit, because a player who hasn't read their role PM is always town, like a serial killer is town. They're not on a team. That's super easy to read. They've got literally no mechanical information (that's not public), so they're supremely able to project their ignorance. It makes it hard to get a persistently accurate read, like in a game driven primarily by cult activity, sure. This works against the interests of the town if you're not town. But then you're not town, so that's good. If you are town, why not be town? It doesn't make a difference to how you'll play.
2) Which is, again, strictly in his favor, because having not read your PM is the best position to be in re: looking like town, which is strictly in your favor if he's town and you're also town.
Certainly, but why should I be worried about acting scummy? There has never been an effective town player in this game who wasn't a little scummy. Even a town leader isn't free of power wolf suspicions. As long as I don't slip too far from "scummy" to "lynchable" I should be fine.IcyTea31: at this point, how are you feeling about the possibility of your being nightkilled (by the scum)? Is it going to be an extra big loss for the town, either due to your ability (as a player) or abilities (from your role)? Are you doing anything to bait out the kill or avoid it?
DeusAsmoth: going to be joining us this D1?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 19, 2019, 10:54:25 am
at this point, how are you feeling about the possibility of your being nightkilled (by the scum)? Is it going to be an extra big loss for the town, either due to your ability (as a player) or abilities (from your role)? Are you doing anything to bait out the kill or avoid it?I'm not trying to specifically bait it or avoid it, but I intend to make it informative if I do get targeted. I'm establishing myself as dangerous. Dangerous to keep alive, dangerous to kill. Thus, whether or not I get killed will speak volumes about scum and how they deal with threats. Of course, I'm not the only threat on the board, so it alone won't win the game.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 19, 2019, 11:11:16 am
Would saying you are baiting the night kill stop scum from killing you since they think you are bait?
Post by: dolores on December 19, 2019, 12:01:09 pm
@dolores: there is nothing wrong with asking questions. I believe I mentioned that I trust FallacyofUrist because of the many questions.Yeah, I can't read.
You can ignore that question.
Would saying you are baiting the night kill stop scum from killing you since they think you are bait?Yeah, I'm baiting the nightkill by baiting the nightkill.
I don't think it's useful to talk about in the thead. It's WIFOM. At worst, it's WIFOM which should only register with scum, so you can think of it like reverse scum play where I'm trying to waste their time in their quicktopic by filling it with trash. I could say that the only reason you should be asking me about it in the thread is because you are scum; after all, no vig is ever going to shoot me.
It is true that I generally try to avoid the nightkill. All else being equal, it should depend on my role. But I think that I can do more work as a vanilla townie than most cops. In this game, I've got an extremely strong role that's of direct threat to the scum.
I need to deal with the kill in every game I'm in. Absent this, there's no reason I should ever survive to D2. Think of it like a variation on the 'Wuba alive by D3 rule', except my town game is way better than my scum game (and his town game lol) so I get a shorter leash, because nobody expects to be able to post some WIFOM about me being alive on D2 to get me lynched. The appropriate way to deal with the kill depends on the players on the scumteam, the possibilities of which can be considered by the players in the game. I don't think that going into D2 with the shadow of a lynch hanging over me is enough to stop most scumteams for targetting me in this game.
I accidentally reloaded over this post, so the tone is wierd in the rewriting. Whatever, that's your problem.
This is dumbat this point, how are you feeling about the possibility of your being nightkilled (by the scum)? Is it going to be an extra big loss for the town, either due to your ability (as a player) or abilities (from your role)? Are you doing anything to bait out the kill or avoid it?I intend to make it informative if I do get targeted. I'm establishing myself as dangerous. Dangerous to keep alive, dangerous to kill. Thus, whether or not I get killed will speak volumes about scum and how they deal with threats.
It's pure WIFOM. If you're going to base reasoning on nightkills at best you're breaking even with scum. Realistically, you're fighting a losing battle, and you're probably losing time. If scum are rolling dice, you're literally only wasting time. Nothing you can say about NK targets has any relevance to actual townyness/scumyness of players. This is like, what FoU thinks not checking your role PM is. See, no matter how little D1 could have to do with scumhunting if everyone brought an optimal scum game and didn't check their PM, you'd still lynch the most antitown player, if not anyone with an antitown role. That's progress, to some degree. It's the best you can get in the face of ignorant scum, I guess. It's D1. We're probably going to do that anyway, since TricMagic is here and Deus Asmoth isn't. But, like, damn dude. If I'm scum, why would I ever bother to play WIFOM with you? I can just roll dice and eliminate N1, as well as D1, from your ability to read scum!dolores. Then you get to waste time on D2 by proxy, and then I can lambast you for it.
There is no information to be obtained from scumkills.
Post by: dolores on December 19, 2019, 05:08:47 pm
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 19, 2019, 05:35:15 pm
out lolIf sincere, why are you out?
If not sincere, why say you’re out when you’re not?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 19, 2019, 09:09:13 pm
If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.You've listed every possible reason for why Superdorf might survive the night here. Which would you think would be the most likely?
Why would your read of ICT be influenced by his behaviour from when he claims he doesn't know what team he's playing for any more than it would be by his behaviour outside this game?Naturegirl1999:Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.
I haven't read my role PM yet. Why do you think that is?
Primarily because:
1) It casts doubt into the minds of anyone attempting to get a read on you. In fact it makes it impossible to get a true read, as you are not acting according to what your role is.
2) It taints the reads of people who try to get a read on you later, as they will take into account the portion of time where you had not looked at your PM. Even if they attempt to ignore it, their subconscious read on you will be influenced by what they've already seen of you.
dolores
Your response for part 2 here doesn't make much sense to me, mostly because I don't agree with FOU's original assertion for it. Not having read your role can't make you look like town since you don't know what side you're actually on, so ICT's day 1 play would be a null tell at best.Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.Alright, I'll bite.
Primarily because:
1) It casts doubt into the minds of anyone attempting to get a read on you. In fact it makes it impossible to get a true read, as you are not acting according to what your role is.
2) It taints the reads of people who try to get a read on you later, as they will take into account the portion of time where you had not looked at your PM. Even if they attempt to ignore it, their subconscious read on you will be influenced by what they've already seen of you.
I haven't read my role PM. There you go. I'm lying, right? You'll never know. Whether or not I tell you if I've read my role PM has no bearing on whether or not I tell you I have. Okay, so I'm not perfect: if I don't read my PM, I'm less likely to comment on whether or not I've read it.
1) Is bullshit, because a player who hasn't read their role PM is always town, like a serial killer is town. They're not on a team. That's super easy to read. They've got literally no mechanical information (that's not public), so they're supremely able to project their ignorance. It makes it hard to get a persistently accurate read, like in a game driven primarily by cult activity, sure. This works against the interests of the town if you're not town. But then you're not town, so that's good. If you are town, why not be town? It doesn't make a difference to how you'll play.
2) Which is, again, strictly in his favor, because having not read your PM is the best position to be in re: looking like town, which is strictly in your favor if he's town and you're also town.
Superdorf
Deus Asmoth: If you could learn the role of one player right now, who would you choose? Why?IcyTea, because someone might as well know what his role is if it isn't going to be him.
dolores again
Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?No it isn't, and I'm pretty sure I have a history of relative inactivity in general. I don't really intend to do anything to convince you I'm town other than what I normally do.
Persus
Deus Asmoth: Census or random inspect, which would you rather have?Random, assuming I know who it is I inspected.
IcyTea
Deus Asmoth:It would really depend on the relative scumminess of all the other players in the game, but in a vacuum, asking someone to repeat a question instead of just finding it in the thread has been a surprisingly consistent scum tell in my experience, so I guess that.
If you were a dayvig, what would be the least scummy statement one could make that would make you shoot them immediately regardless of past scumminess or lack thereof?
If I were to shoot someone right now, who do you think it should be?
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2019, 10:28:15 pm
Good to see you've finally joined us DA. Thoughts on the game so far?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 19, 2019, 10:46:10 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2019, 11:28:52 pm
Post by: Superdorf on December 20, 2019, 12:12:54 am
Shadowclaw777: Clarify for me: are you just pontificating on possible mafia strategies, or do you in fact think the more talkative of us are likely scum?
notquitethere: Could we get a votecount please?
Naturegirl1999
Newness could also be a cover for scum, in my first game I was scum. I played like a bad town player who didn’t know what they were doing so they thought I was town. Perhaps Shadowclaw is using a similar strategy?Not all that relevant except as a meta thing, but I'm curious now. This "bad play" of yours from last game: was it deliberate? :o
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 04:16:09 am
I got a bad feeling earlier from dolores pointing you as a town read. I looked back, and it looks like in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067828#msg8067828) you copied several of dolores' arguments and have been buddying to them.
Is that a response or an accusation?
Clarify for me please: is this an answer or an accusation?
let's do our best to optimize our chances by finding which players we probably shouldn't lynch, and more to the point, which ones we definitely should.
Random lynching is indeed counterproductive for us. We're not doing that. We are using our voices to generate as much relevant material as possible, and we are assessing the voice of each player to determine their motives in speaking.
Persus13: you've voted someone who you've not asked any questions to, and who has asked you unanswered relevant questions.
Persus13: I need words from you. Is IcyTea scum? If so, why?
I once vindicated you as obvtown by noting that you clearly weren't being coached, but this time it looks like someone is helping you. In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067633#msg8067633) and this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067682#msg8067682), you express uncertainty about your play, but then in the post quoted above, you suddenly show chutzpah. What changed?
If I were to shoot someone right now, who do you think it should be?TricMagic, but mostly for meta reasons. He finds the time to post thousands of words in other forum games, but only a few cryptic lines of nonsense in Mafia which only serve to confuse and frustrate other players. Even if town, his playstyle is anti-town.
Who would be your choice for the same question?
the people doing excessive questions and statements are trying to possibly cover the fact their mafiaPower wolves are less dangerous than lurkers, for the simple reason that you can talk to them to ascertain alignment. The way to avoid being misled by a power wolf is to make sure that the reason you want to lynch someone is your own, and that you're not blindly following someone else.
Who do you believe is the most scummy right now, if you had to ignore everything anyone else has said about their scumminess or townishness?
Post by: Superdorf on December 20, 2019, 07:46:54 am
Is that a response or an accusation?
Clarify for me please: is this an answer or an accusation?
was an accident. As I said earlier--
Is that a response or an accusation?It's an observation which dodges the question without answering it.
I don't want to enter N1 without knowing your alignment. Why do you seem content to do the reverse?
ignore my last question to you please-- I missed this in my evening thread-trawling. ::)
--I didn't see dolores ask that question in my read-through that day.
But... yes, now you point it out I do see the similarities in our action. I've an unfortunate habit in these games of picking up on somebody else's reasoning-- whether consciously or not-- and using it as a basis for my own work. I did so with Nirur Torir, I did so with NJW2000; both times I came out the worse for it. (Town still won those games, mind! Just, maybe not so much by my contributions.)
Yes, Ι'm showing "chutzpah". I'm faking it. I don't actually know what I'm doing, but I have this notion that I'm supposed to act like I know what I'm doing so's to look intimidating and pressure people, so I try to bluster. I'm not great at it, but I try to bluster! Does it help? I dunno.
If I'm not asking for help so much this game, it's 'cos I'm hoping I'll be a little more comfortable with the structure of the game this time 'round anyway. Maybe I lose that noobtown shine in the process, but... I was going to have to at some point, no?
More questions from me later. This post was written in haste; I've a very very busy day ahead of me.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 20, 2019, 08:46:18 am
IcyTea
TricMagic, but mostly for meta reasons. He finds the time to post thousands of words in other forum games, but only a few cryptic lines of nonsense in Mafia which only serve to confuse and frustrate other players. Even if town, his playstyle is anti-town.
Who would be your choice for the same question?
I think Tric wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd probably shoot dolores. Partially to save waiting for a replacement, but also because it feels like they did a lot of talking about how valuable they are to the town alive and how much worse their scum game is, which gives me a few alarm bells. I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.
Persus
Was planning on getting in a post today, but that didn't happen, so I'll try to get a post in tomorrow.There's a lot of posting, which is nice. I wish I hadn't missed it. I'll admit that I've only skimmed that parts with the AtE discussion so far, so I need to read over that. I'm inclined to think that Superdorf is town based on willingness to share information.
Good to see you've finally joined us DA. Thoughts on the game so far?
Shadowclaw: is there anyone you think is scum right now or are you waiting to go along with a group consensus on who to lynch?
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 20, 2019, 08:59:15 am
Aw man, we lost dolores :-\The first game I played I was scum, it was a mix of being deliberately bad and actually not knowing what I was doing. The 2nd game I played I was Town. Because my only experience from last game was being scum, I had not a good idea of how to be Town, so in the previous game I played, which you moderated, the bad play wasn’t deliberate, but in the first game I played, moderated by IcyTea31, it was deliberate
Shadowclaw777: Clarify for me: are you just pontificating on possible mafia strategies, or do you in fact think the more talkative of us are likely scum?
notquitethere: Could we get a votecount please?
Naturegirl1999Newness could also be a cover for scum, in my first game I was scum. I played like a bad town player who didn’t know what they were doing so they thought I was town. Perhaps Shadowclaw is using a similar strategy?Not all that relevant except as a meta thing, but I'm curious now. This "bad play" of yours from last game: was it deliberate? :o
Post by: dolores on December 20, 2019, 11:04:44 am
Most places don't allow it, actually, but what are you gonna do, ban me? I don't give a fuck.
If sincere, why are you out?Y-you can't post out and not be out.
If not sincere, why say you’re out when you’re not?
You're not entitled to know why people go out. You can decide whether or not it's in good faith on your own, but imo it's pretty obvious that going out is against my team's interests no matter my alignment. I'm by far the least likely to get lynched or killed in this game.
Also I shouldn't be posting in the thread since I'm not playing, so you're addresing questions to someone outside of the thread who can't reply within it. That's pretty rude and the main reason there's not some character-limit spoiler of my off-topic discussion with Persus.
Incidentally, it's "out lol" because it's funny to me that I had to go out after waiting several months on a forum with literally 0 activity for this game.
Your response for part 2 here doesn't make much sense to me, mostly because I don't agree with FOU's original assertion for it. Not having read your role can't make you look like town since you don't know what side you're actually on, so ICT's day 1 play would be a null tell at best.It blows my mind that you can not get this. How, exactly, do you plan to distinguish a vanilla townie from a player who doesn't know their role? Outside of open/semiopen setups where knowing you're a vanilla townie tells you whether or not other players could have that vanilla townie slot (rarely relevant D1), they'll play exactly the same. I guess the vanilla townie knows exactly how many of the other players are scum if the size of the scum team is known, while the no-pm player doesn't know whether or not they're taking up one of those slots, but if anything that's more likely to get you townread. Ignorance, and anticipation of ignorance, is the number one marker of town. Why do you think we lynch powerroles? They know more than the average townie should.
Besides the fact that there's more anecdotal evidence of this than literally any other claim that has ever been made about tells/slips in mafia, it's also obvious from first principles. Town players can optimize their play for maximum volume of work without reducing their ability to be townread 'per unit work', whereas scum can't because they can't write stream-of-consicousness like town can.This will always be true and will always be what matters. Sure, relative to other players activity might not mean much if you're physically or psychologically unable (or unwilling) to devote more than a given amount of time or can't produce as much work per unit time as another player, but activity relative to a given player is always relevant and you, in particular, have given no reason why your established metagame can't be used to evaluate you without at least relatively high efficacy.Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?No it isn't, and I'm pretty sure I have a history of relative inactivity in general. I don't really intend to do anything to convince you I'm town other than what I normally do.
Activity really shouldn’t determine whether your town or a mafioso I feel like lol, I mean sure their are things that people have done that seems suspect when looked at and you can start, but how is it the benefit to the scum to not be inactive if anything the people doing excessive questions and statements are trying to possibly cover the fact their mafia by making everyone think their in charge so they couldn’t possible be scum.If you really want evidence, find somewhere like this forum or wherever which automatically records games and read every game and evaluate for yourself the relative activity of town to scum.
It's also the first thing talked about here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.0). NQT, Jim, Webadict and Toaster are the only players who know their dicks from their assholes posting in 2013 in that thread, and you can see what they say about the theory.
But like I've said about, it's able to be shown through first principles if the town players are attempting (regardless of competance) to play optimally and have a known meta.
Inactivity is a null tell most of the time, but one strategy scum can do is be quiet and not super active to avoid drawing attention to themselves, and let town attack town. This is called lurking.This is literally all scum can ever do, which is why the opposite is a towntell. Any argument a townie develops against another townie can always make the attacker look townier than the attack can make the other townie look scummy, if both townies are playing authentically. That's always able to be compared favorably to not posting, which the scum are doing in this scenario.
The strategy you mention is definitely one I've seen deployed before, but lurking is also something I've seen used effectively. The main issue with lurking is that it doesn't make for a fun game.Voting people for metadrama outside of the thread also doesn't make for a fun game, but it doesn't mean you don't do it.
When are you going to start to develop a case for lynching the person you're voting?
For reference, every time I engage in this metagame discussion about the evils of inactivity it strengthens my case on TricMagic's one post and literally zero content.
I'm reading Superdorf's old games for reference now, and town!Superdorf was way more aggressive than
Spoiler: this (click to show/hide)
Oh wait nevermind
Spoiler: I'm wrong (click to show/hide)
I think Tric wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd probably shoot dolores. Partially to save waiting for a replacement, but also because it feels like they did a lot of talking about how valuable they are to the town alive and how much worse their scum game is, which gives me a few alarm bells. I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.Obviously it's leading, I already anticipated having to lynch scum!DA based on his inactivity, and that's a pain to do D1 without setting up for it from the start of RVS.
It's definitely not based on misinfo lol, the fact that you keep claiming this is further sign that you're trying to deny it because it is an accurate scumtell that will be used on you in this game.
Naturegrill2000: why are you still fielding questions without any questions of your own? I'm really not down with your passivity and lack of apparent desire to know more about the roles and alignment of other players. If TricMagic had posted literally anything, I'd be voting you now.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 11:59:39 am
My case against Superdorf is indeed weak, though I still do want the promised followup response to it. However, sometimes a weak case on someone is just what it takes to provoke someone else the reveal their alignment. That is how emotional manipulation works in action.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 12:04:59 pm
I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.A personal attack is good provocation for an RVS question, though it has risks. What part of the question is misinformed?
I'm inclined to think that Superdorf is town based on willingness to share information.
Is there any reason scum!Superdorf wouldn't share the same information?
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 20, 2019, 12:24:32 pm
Tricmagic
To note, I kinda wonder how superdorf got that info.You haven’t made any posts since this one. Were you waiting for a question? Why are you not very active today? If you could figure out someone’s role, who would you target and why? Why did you mention the uselessness of a role? Why do you want to be targeted?
Note my Role is completely useless this game. Feel free to target me all you like.Yay
TricMagic: How has your scum-play differentiated from your town-play in past games?
Typically, it hasn't. Though last game I ended up being busier in RL than not, so I was mostly silent.
Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.
Post by: dolores on December 20, 2019, 12:27:33 pm
My case against Superdorf is indeed weak, though I still do want the promised followup response to it.The present case on Superdorf is weak, but the theoretical case on Superdorf should he fail to produce good content after having examples of his own posts presented to him as a guideline is rock solid.
IcyTea31: in your opinion, based off of what I've revealed to far, do you believe the scum would be able to nightkill me?
PPE:
Naturegirl1999: planning on asking any questions to active players.
Also, you can ask me questions, since in theory they'll be answered by the person who replaces me if there is one. What you can't do is ask me questions, because while that person is here I won't be, though I still have a few hours.
Post by: notquitethere on December 20, 2019, 12:33:56 pm
Superdorf - Icytea31 [1]
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Dolores, Naturegirl1999 [2]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth [1]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31 - Persus13, FallacyofUrist [2]
Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 23 hours time).
Dolores has requested replacement. Dolores may continue to post if they want, and indeed may withdraw their replacement request if so desired.
Let me know if I've made any mistakes in vote count.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 20, 2019, 01:01:59 pm
FallacyofUrist:I believe there is a possibility Superdorf is in fact a mafia player. At the moment I consider it a possibility and not yet a certainty. I'm case-building.
The issue with this line of thinking is, what's the Mafia going to do about it? The info is out there, but its not like killing Superdorf will take that away, and roles don't mean anything towards alignment. The only solid bit of info that this gives towards alignment is there might be an SK because they're guaranteed a kill ability of some sort and there's three kill abilities. But that info helps the scumteam as much as it does everyone else. If Superdorf was a day cop than it would be more risky, because he'd have more concrete information to give. Do you actually think there's any evidence of Superdorf being Mafia, or are you just raising the possibility?
I believe you may be underestimating the usefulness of a census power, particularly a double-list census power. With enough census information out there, combined with a massclaim... I can't see that going very well for the mafia. If Superdorf is town then in the longer run he is an immense threat to the mafia, especially once his ability is proven by someone dying matching his information.
Let me present a hypothetical scenario. The census is much more useful than you may think. Particularly, this double-list census power that provides two lists.The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.This is dumb. The information isn't, like, alignment inspects that the scum already know. Scum get just as much out of the expanded list as we do.
I've got a 1000x more important role. I can tell you that straight up. If scum shoot at Superdorf, they can't shoot at me. (Yes, scum, that's WIFOM. But only for you, so go get drunk in scumchat and leave it out of the thread if you don't want to be called out for it.) This is generalizable.If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.There's no risk to this gambit. What's the worst that's going to happen, scum kill someone that's close to a vanilla townie? That's the best case scenario for N1. Why does this worry you?
It is entirely possible that by Day 2 Superdorf will have assembled a complete list of every power in the game. From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted. This is, I suspect, a terrifying possibility to the scum.
1) Is casting doubt about one's townishness an anti-town move? If anything, it encourages others to observe me more carefully. Furthermore, why would I want to be read "truely", role and all? At this point of the game, only scum would benefit from knowing my role, since they could be sure that their read on that was correct.To put it simply. Not reading your role PM is a scum move because it means anyone who reads you cannot get a true read on you. It makes any attempt to analyze your behavior useless until you actually read your role PM. Town benefit more from being able to read someone accurately, as the lynch can then be targeted on any detected scum. Therefore, not reading your role PM only hurts the town.
2)As town, I don't see a problem with other townies subconsciously believing I'm town. In being open about not reading my PM, I also give others the chance to take it into account later. Surely, it'd be worse if I didn't tell you I wasn't reading it?
If I'm town, there's likely nothing in my PM that will help prove it, which is what town players care about. Scum players care about my specific role, which might shine through my posts unintentionally. D1 towniness comes from scumhunting and thread behaviour, not from mechanical information. There's also likely nothing in my PM that will help me scumhunt.
If I'm scum, I want to be deceptive anyway and giving a "true read" would be counterproductive. On the other hand, not coordinating with scumbuddies may lead to accidental buses etc., but that would be a perfect cover for the remaining scum, no?
How would you prefer I used the information in my PM? What is there to gain from it for me, and for the town as a whole?
Now, lying and claiming you didn't read your role PM seems a bit more likely. You're intelligent enough to see the foolishness of not reading your role PM, but lying about not reading it? As a scum player that would throw any read on you into doubt for Day 1. It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.
I would prefer you actually read your role PM so people can read you accurately. That provides the most benefit for the town. And if you're not a town player, such a shame it is for you.
FOUIt'd be worth digging a bit deeper into all of those, I think.If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.You've listed every possible reason for why Superdorf might survive the night here. Which would you think would be the most likely?
I'm leaning towards the 'Superdorf is mafia' theory.
-This would allow scum to engineer the earlier massclaim strategy I mentioned, to their benefit. Superdorf can be a mafia census player. Reveal partly true and partly false census information. Use the true stuff to prove his role. Hide the scum and sow confusion using the false information. It's the perfect tool for mass manipulation.
-And of course Superdorf wouldn't be worried about being nightkilled by his scum team.
-As has been mentioned, it's entirely possible Superdorf is being coached by his scum partner or mimicking others in an attempt to look town.
But in the interest of fairness let's look at the other options presented here.
The 'Superdorf was protected' theory.
-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?
The 'scum are leaving Superdorf alive as a risky gambit' theory.
-They would have to have some hope that whatever role abilities they have up their sleeves can work around Superdorf's census. Which is possible, but as mentioned, risky.
I once vindicated you as obvtown by noting that you clearly weren't being coached, but this time it looks like someone is helping you. In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067633#msg8067633) and this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067682#msg8067682), you express uncertainty about your play, but then in the post quoted above, you suddenly show chutzpah. What changed?I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.
~~~
In truth, Superdorf looks more mafia-like than IcyTea does.
Why am I not voting him at present?
Because if he is town then keeping him alive will be very beneficial. I want to be absolutely certain that he's mafia before any vote.
IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 01:40:23 pm
in your opinion, based off of what I've revealed to far, do you believe the scum would be able to nightkill me?There are too many moving parts in this setup for this question to be anything but pointless speculation. You're simultaneously provoking and intimidating scum to and from nightkilling you, so it's anyone's guess which aspect was stronger. I doubt you'll be targeted N1 and will likely be the target of an alternate kill method later. Or maybe some stupid combination of abilities ends up killing everyone by the start of D2. But as noted, trying to made a prediction is pointless for as long as town has the information disadvantage.
From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted.Roles aren't alignment-indicative. What's to stop scum from being truthful in a massclaim?
It makes any attempt to analyze your behavior useless until you actually read your role PM.
It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.
I would prefer you actually read your role PM so people can read you accurately.
Considering the whole method of behavioural analysis is based on the theory that players play differently as town and scum, am I not only providing you a clear background to contrast your later reads with? This is me playing town. Look for changes later, and you can tell if I, personally, am playing town or anti-town, rather than just whether Generic Player #9 is playing town or anti-town. I'm playing a long game that will give specific later instead of general now.
Evidence points to the contrary; I've been right in the center of attention.
And what will I do then? Say that I'm town, look at me I'm so town?
Quote
As has been mentioned, it's entirely possible Superdorf is being coached by his scum partner or mimicking others in an attempt to look town.This here is interesting. I'm the one who pointed that out, yet you also believe that I'm scum? Bussing aside, do I and Superdorf make a plausible buddy-pair?
I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.
IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.
Truth be told, my original gut feeling was dolores coaching Superdorf, which is why I asked a few sneaky questions to probe that without revealing too much, such as this one:
Could you follow up on this? I don't like a conclusion my gut is pointing at, and this might help ascertain truth.That gut feeling probably influenced me to assume Superdorf wouldn't be doing this alone, even after I cleared dolores.
A weird thing to say after using some of my material as core assumptions in your logic.
Post by: dolores on December 20, 2019, 01:43:40 pm
Let me present a hypothetical scenario. The census is much more useful than you may think. Particularly, this double-list census power that provides two lists.Who cares? Just claim.
It is entirely possible that by Day 2 Superdorf will have assembled a complete list of every power in the game. From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted. This is, I suspect, a terrifying possibility to the scum.
This doesn't make any difference.
Superdorf doesn't even know what people's powers are, just the class of action they fall into.
-superdorf stuff-Yeah I know I cut out stuff I've already addressed that you're retreading with ICT. It doesn't hold any water. There's very little cost to not reading your role, and there's a distinct benefit if you are scum, which you'd have no way of knowing. You'd do things like ICT has above in his last two posts, regardless of alignment, which is only good for you.
Your case on superdorf is fucking comical.
The 'scum are leaving Superdorf alive as a risky gambit' theory.There's no risk to this. None. It exists in only your mind. Maybe scum!FallacyofUrist would be afraid of it, but in that case, you're only telling us that you're the scum here. If you believe the shit you're saying, you're telling us two things: scum are worried about Superdorf and that you are worried about Superdorf. Not the picture I'd paint if I was you, but to each their own.
-They would have to have some hope that whatever role abilities they have up their sleeves can work around Superdorf's census. Which is possible, but as mentioned, risky.
You're basically claiming that, like, Superdorf is going to waste all our time with WIFOM on D2. But that's what you're doing now. Congrats. You've taken the burden onto yourself.
I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.There's an alternative take on this where Superdorf is new!town trying to copy what he thinks is a good!town style, because he thinks it's the right thing to do.
It'll be real easy to see now, because he has no latitude to address any of this shit (it's all WIFOM or desperate self defence shit, which is antitown at best) and he'll not have any content from me as reference. If he keeps trying to act in a protown manner and doesn't slip further into pointless defensive crap, he's town. He's promised town activity, so if he doesn't provide it, you can say he's not.
IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.Are you fucking kidding me
IcyTea has done as much work as dolores in terms of putting Superdorf into the spot he's in now, which will quickly determine a key player's alignment.
I realize that I'm the one saying this, but his play to produce the townread on me was the most brilliant shit I've ever fucking seen.
IcyTea quickly dismantled Persus13's meta bullshit, and did so in a way that prevented it from impacting the game.
etc. etc.
He's done nothing but show value. Now, this doesn't mean that he's town. scum!IcyTea who hasn't read his PM would do the exact same thing. But there's no denying that IcyTea has done more work than 8 other players this D1.
PPE: I'll dump this now then read ICT's post
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 02:01:48 pm
That gut feeling probably influenced me to assume Superdorf wouldn't be doing this alone, even after I cleared dolores.Hold up, that's not right. Back then, my thought process was that dolores might be coaching Superdorf, which is why he would be suddenly prompted to make a far less uncertain post than before. My townread on dolores wasn't a factor, since it didn't exist yet. Thinking about your past posts is difficult when you have information you obtained later, isn't it?
Post by: dolores on December 20, 2019, 02:13:32 pm
Like he's said, you can literally compare his later behavior to how he's played here. It's a perfect, 100% up to date basis for a metaread. If you can't find an argument based on that that works, he's not scum or you're bad at mafia (ICT isn't, so that's not really a criticism for the newer players).
Here's my list of players in order of preference to kill at this point in time. I'll check again in an hour and write a quick post then, otherwise I'm going to be reduced to phoneposting less than once a day at the witching hour while probably drunk. Probably, I'll use my night powers and just vote with whoever I think is the most likely to be town until I'm replaced. I should be able to update my vote just before this day ends. Anyway, here's the list:
FallacyofUrist
I don't have any more evidence that TricMagic is mafia than I do that he's been hit by a bus. If I was a vig, I'd shoot him. I'd like to ask any town arsonists able to to prime him N1. If he confirms his alignment, you can decide then, and burn him N2 if he's still being useless. Whatever, you shouldn't need me to explain (more than I have previously, anyway) why his current volume of nonwork is unacceptable. The one post he has made is absent any contribution and actually scummy in itself, though.
Naturegirl1999: too active for how little work they've done. Persistently defensive, not actually hunting any scum (or hunting anything, for that matter).
Persus13: as far as I'm concerned, everything they've said outside of discussing ICT and myself is solid play, and everything they've said about/to ICT and myself is bullshit. ICT is their main case though, which means that they're maybe just a solid player who's scum and pushing a fallacious case. Weak scum read
Deus Asmoth: pretty much the same as Persus13, except they've put infintely less emphasis on the part of Persus13's play I have a problem with, and have had their vote on the player I want to lynch since before they made the post that made me really want to lynch them. Neutral read, middle of the list.
Superdorf: either an easy town read or going to show otherwise by the end of D1. Promised activity. If they supply it, they're probably town.
IcyTea31: hasn't read his rolepm. A legend and a hero. Has played 100% town up to this point. Compare their future play to what they've presented up till now to determine if they're scum on D2+
Post by: dolores on December 20, 2019, 03:40:03 pm
-FoU made a large deal about the fact that he thinks Superdorf is scum, the logic of which would imply that FoU is likely scum if Superdorf isn't. I don't think Superdorf is scum, so the case would imply FoU probably is. I don't agree with the case, but it's clear from the fact that FoU has presented the case that FoU thinks the reasoning of the case is valid, and therefore that FoU thinks that scum!FoU would act in the way that he has. The most generous interpretation of the case is that it is WIFOM, which would still make me think FoU is scum.
-Despite this case, FoU has voted for another player who he has given literally justification for voting and who has, in my opinion, brought the most unequivocally town game so far this D1. There's no reason or justification for this vote that I can think of besides that FoU is scum, and FoU has not provided me with any reason or justifcation for this vote.
That's it. I'm out. Hopefully there's a replacement before D2.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 20, 2019, 06:43:55 pm
It blows my mind that you apparently are willing to give a town read to a player who has admitted to not knowing what side they're playing for.Your response for part 2 here doesn't make much sense to me, mostly because I don't agree with FOU's original assertion for it. Not having read your role can't make you look like town since you don't know what side you're actually on, so ICT's day 1 play would be a null tell at best.It blows my mind that you can not get this. How, exactly, do you plan to distinguish a vanilla townie from a player who doesn't know their role? Outside of open/semiopen setups where knowing you're a vanilla townie tells you whether or not other players could have that vanilla townie slot (rarely relevant D1), they'll play exactly the same. I guess the vanilla townie knows exactly how many of the other players are scum if the size of the scum team is known, while the no-pm player doesn't know whether or not they're taking up one of those slots, but if anything that's more likely to get you townread. Ignorance, and anticipation of ignorance, is the number one marker of town. Why do you think we lynch powerroles? They know more than the average townie should.
Quote
I have, actually. Your implication was that my activity is noticeable lower as scum than as town, which is blatantly untrue. And your breakdown from first principles is confirmation bias at its finest. If anything, a good scum player should be one with higher activity, since the optimal play for scum is both to appear to be town and to direct the town into pursuing bad lynches, which would both be aided by high activity under your assertions. Not to mention that:Besides the fact that there's more anecdotal evidence of this than literally any other claim that has ever been made about tells/slips in mafia, it's also obvious from first principles. Town players can optimize their play for maximum volume of work without reducing their ability to be townread 'per unit work', whereas scum can't because they can't write stream-of-consicousness like town can.This will always be true and will always be what matters. Sure, relative to other players activity might not mean much if you're physically or psychologically unable (or unwilling) to devote more than a given amount of time or can't produce as much work per unit time as another player, but activity relative to a given player is always relevant and you, in particular, have given no reason why your established metagame can't be used to evaluate you without at least relatively high efficacy.Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?No it isn't, and I'm pretty sure I have a history of relative inactivity in general. I don't really intend to do anything to convince you I'm town other than what I normally do.
1: Anecdotal evidence ain't worth shit.
And
B: There's also a lot more anecdotal evidence of town with low activity and scum with high activity than there is of any other mistaken tell in the game.
So your claim that it's a reliable scumtell is flat out wrong, whether intentional on your part or not.
And if you're writing stream of consciousness, you're not optimising your work in the first place, you're just spamming everyone else with more stuff they have to sift through to find what you're actually trying to say.
Quote
Sure, man. It's a totally accurate scumtell, just like it was the last five times someone tried and failed to make a case on me based off it when I was town.I think Tric wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd probably shoot dolores. Partially to save waiting for a replacement, but also because it feels like they did a lot of talking about how valuable they are to the town alive and how much worse their scum game is, which gives me a few alarm bells. I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.Obviously it's leading, I already anticipated having to lynch scum!DA based on his inactivity, and that's a pain to do D1 without setting up for it from the start of RVS.
It's definitely not based on misinfo lol, the fact that you keep claiming this is further sign that you're trying to deny it because it is an accurate scumtell that will be used on you in this game.
And it clearly is misinformation. You're presenting it as though it's a noticeable difference between me playing as town and me playing as scum, which is not the case. Therefore you're either deliberately trying to build a case on incorrect facts or you're trying to build a metagame case without actually knowing the meta of the person you're building a case on. Neither one of those is a great look for you.
IcyTea
The parts I've already mentioned, where dolores implied that low activity was a hallmark of my scum play rather me just having a fairly consistently low number of posts. I wouldn't have really classed it as a personal attack though.I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.A personal attack is good provocation for an RVS question, though it has risks. What part of the question is misinformed?
I'm inclined to think that Superdorf is town based on willingness to share information.
Quote
Is there any reason scum!Superdorf wouldn't share the same information?Yes. It gives information to the town early in the game, when as scum Superdorf could have held onto the information for at least another day with the reasonable excuse of not outing himself as an investigative role.
FOU explain to me how scum!Superdorf making up fake results would help the scum team. Also, as far as I can tell you haven't responded to the second part of my question to you about why your read of ICT would be influenced by how he acted when he didn't (or claimed not to) know his alignment.
Post by: Superdorf on December 20, 2019, 06:49:33 pm
First, let's try for a readlist.
Spoiler: Readlist (click to show/hide)
FallacyofUrist
-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?
...
There is a Save ability in play.
Just sayin' :P
But I'm not going to bother with that.
- By your current understanding of the game, is IcyTea bussing me?
- Elaborate on your case against IcyTea, please. My read is in place-- change my mind.
Naturegirl1999
The first game I played I was scum, it was a mix of being deliberately bad and actually not knowing what I was doing. The 2nd game I played I was Town. Because my only experience from last game was being scum, I had not a good idea of how to be Town, so in the previous game I played, which you moderated, the bad play wasn’t deliberate, but in the first game I played, moderated by IcyTea31, it was deliberate
Ah apologies, I meant last last game. Nice!
Now then... remember when I said
Spoiler: this? (click to show/hide)
IcyTea31
So, uh, I stumbled on this
Spoiler: old RVS question of yours (click to show/hide)
- Not that it matters anymore, but would you say the same?
- What's your readlist look like, right about now?
- When are you planning on cracking open that role PM you apparently still haven't read? As late as possible, or a bit earlier? Why?
notquitethere: Thank youuu
TricMagic: You alive there buddy?
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2019, 08:52:40 pm
Shadowclaw: You've mainly been making comments on what shouldn't be Mafia tells, is there any Mafia tells you think people are actually displaying in this game?
dolores
How are you planning on determining ICT's alignment? How will you recover from the fact that there's no dialogue between the three of us that's actually relevant to the game beyond a pinch of stray RVS?The usual way.
I'm having plenty of fun here, I don't know what you're talking about.The strategy you mention is definitely one I've seen deployed before, but lurking is also something I've seen used effectively. The main issue with lurking is that it doesn't make for a fun game.Voting people for metadrama outside of the thread also doesn't make for a fun game, but it doesn't mean you don't do it.
ICT:
I've seen people do the "not read their role PM" thing before, and I didn't really have strong feelings either way. I don't think its a bad play, just an interesting one that I don't have any interest in, and I'm keeping an eye on your play to see how it changes up. I will say you've become a bit more serious, but I'm not sure if that's just based on coming out of RVS.I get this is a joke, but do you think you're acting scummy currently?Certainly, but why should I be worried about acting scummy? There has never been an effective town player in this game who wasn't a little scummy. Even a town leader isn't free of power wolf suspicions. As long as I don't slip too far from "scummy" to "lynchable" I should be fine.
I like to enter D1 with wildcard plays and strange gambits, not because it's always effective, but because it creates intrigue and makes people want to keep playing. As they play and speak directly to me about my strange plays, I gain insights to them. Would you prefer if I used a more orthodox D1 strategy? Having all players start oddball would be ineffective, of course, so what would you consider to be the cutoff point for "too many D1 gambits"?
SuperdorfI mean, a lot of that is just conventional Mafia wisdom though, they're just getting it from the same source. What makes this sucmmy as opposed to merely copying?
I got a bad feeling earlier from dolores pointing you as a town read. I looked back, and it looks like in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067828#msg8067828) you copied several of dolores' arguments and have been buddying to them.
FallacyofUrist:
I believe you may be underestimating the usefulness of a census power, particularly a double-list census power. With enough census information out there, combined with a massclaim... I can't see that going very well for the mafia. If Superdorf is town then in the longer run he is an immense threat to the mafia, especially once his ability is proven by someone dying matching his information.Not really. Knowing all the roles in town isn't especially useful without a means of verification, and this is in a game where the Census has no way of sussing out roles being random or useless.
Now, lying and claiming you didn't read your role PM seems a bit more likely. You're intelligent enough to see the foolishness of not reading your role PM, but lying about not reading it? As a scum player that would throw any read on you into doubt for Day 1. It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.I've seen people not read their role PM in games before, have you not? To be fair, sometimes they don't announce it. I think its an interesting idea that you think IcyTea is lying here, but I don't understand why you're so confident about it.
Superdorf:
To be fair, that Save ability could be random,self-targeted or something else.-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?
...There is a Save ability in play.
Just sayin' :P
But I'm not going to bother with that.
Post by: Superdorf on December 20, 2019, 10:11:55 pm
TricMagic hasn't posted on Bay12 since his post here.
Ohh. That explains a thing or two!
Seeing as we've got some AWOL players, I've let Secretdorf know over in the newbie-thread that we could use a replacement here. We'll see what happens.
To be fair, that Save ability could be random,self-targeted or something else.Mm, yes.
Post by: notquitethere on December 21, 2019, 05:21:55 am
Superdorf - Icytea31 [1]
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Naturegirl1999 [1]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth, Dolores, Superdorf [3]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777 - Persus13 [1]
Icytea31 - FallacyofUrist [1]
Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 6 hours time).
Let me know if I've made any mistakes in vote count.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 21, 2019, 05:50:17 am
- Not that it matters anymore, but would you say the same?-Absolutely.
- What's your readlist look like, right about now?
- When are you planning on cracking open that role PM you apparently still haven't read? As late as possible, or a bit earlier? Why?
-I don't have access to my notes right now, will compile a list later.
-I've read it. Whoop-te-doo, I'm town.
I mean, a lot of that is just conventional Mafia wisdom though, they're just getting it from the same source. What makes this sucmmy as opposed to merely copying?It combined with the sudden change in attitude hinted at a hypothetical scumbuddy saying "hey, make a post like dolores, it'll look towny".
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 21, 2019, 06:22:19 am
Unvote
I don't actually think Superdorf or FoU are very scummy. TricMagic, however, is worth lynching for the simple lack of play allowing him to completely avoid being read or reading anyone. It's not even the activity, it's the investment; with a history of non-play, it's not worth keeping him around doing night actions which then have to be begged for to be explained to anyone else, no matter how important they may be.
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 21, 2019, 07:45:16 am
I still see no benefit in a random lynch, I’m sure this game and the roles lack things like “sheriff” and “investigator” that allows a player to get the role of another, but how to tell the player that your not scum and trying to get a benefit from a lynch and a scum kill a night?, anyways I haven’t really looked deep into the power source code but their could possible be a investigative power like that as superdorf as shown, anyways I don’t see the benefit of lynching a player just based on previous bad behavior on other mafia games. For TricMagic, yeah the lack of inactivity is weird since he’s seems too be very aggressive with the Arm Race games, and begging for night actions to say if he had a beneficial power, you’d just have to tell him on the previous day to use that power
The reason for voting for FoU, the aggressive Pack wolf play seems averse and he hasn’t made any point why he be useful for town rather then these claims but idk
Vote FallacyOfUrist
Post by: notquitethere on December 21, 2019, 08:08:10 am
Post by: dolores on December 21, 2019, 08:46:56 am
Post by: notquitethere on December 21, 2019, 09:09:02 am
Superdorf
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Naturegirl1999, Icytea31, Dolores [3]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth, Superdorf, Shadowclaw777 [3]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777 - Persus13 [1]
Icytea31 - FallacyofUrist [1]
Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 2 hours time).
Please don't edit posts, just make another post if you want to make a correction.
Post by: Superdorf on December 21, 2019, 09:12:09 am
I find it questionable that Tric would vote for Naturegirl since I really don’t see any questionable reason why she would be scum maybe because of the lack of posts?, she was scum on a previous mafia game okay but that doesn’t have enough substantial evidence besides the random chance to get lynched.
Uhh TricMagic didn't vote Naturegirl.
Spoiler: Last votecount (click to show/hide)
He did speak to Naturegirl-- briefly-- kind of--
Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.
--but it wasn't much of a conversation. ::)
I still see no benefit in a random lynch, I’m sure this game and the roles lack things like “sheriff” and “investigator” that allows a player to get the role of another, but how to tell the player that your not scum and trying to get a benefit from a lynch and a scum kill a night?, anyways I haven’t really looked deep into the power source code but their could possible be a investigative power like that as superdorf as shown, anyways I don’t see the benefit of lynching a player just based on previous bad behavior on other mafia games.
You still seem to be caught up with this idea of the D1 lynch being a random lynch. It's not a random lynch. Depending on the skill of all involved, we can significantly increase our chances of lynching mafia-- or at least, of lynching a relatively unhelpful townie who would've confused us later.
So too: by lynching now rather than later, we get information to guide the next lynch. By choosing to lynch somebody-- anybody-- we generate valuable pages of heated debate that we can reference later. (If we had all chosen the no-lynch today out of simple policy, would we have such interesting reads and suspicions now?) By the roleflip of the dead player we can determine the veracity of that player's words, and we can assess the motivations of those who worked to condemn or exonerate that player. With the nightkill, scum can choose what information we get from player death, if any-- not so with the lynch. This Day gives we the town a valuable opportunity to take the flow of information into our own hands: an opportunity well worth taking!
You speak of investigative roles. We don't want to count on investigative roles. We cannot trust those who claim investigative roles-- not without the social information that we gain now, partly by means of the lynch. So too, those of us who might have investigative roles are guided by that social information as they decide who to target this Night.
The reason for voting for FoU, the aggressive Pack wolf play seems averse and he hasn’t made any point why he be useful for town rather then these claims but idkOn this note, I've a question for you. Which is worse, in your mind: the lurker, or the "power wolf"?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 21, 2019, 09:29:27 am
1) Yeah I was very confused with the TricMagic voting NG thingI find it questionable that Tric would vote for Naturegirl since I really don’t see any questionable reason why she would be scum maybe because of the lack of posts?, she was scum on a previous mafia game okay but that doesn’t have enough substantial evidence besides the random chance to get lynched.
Uhh TricMagic didn't vote Naturegirl.Spoiler: Last votecount (click to show/hide)
He did speak to Naturegirl-- briefly-- kind of--Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.
--but it wasn't much of a conversation. ::)I still see no benefit in a random lynch, I’m sure this game and the roles lack things like “sheriff” and “investigator” that allows a player to get the role of another, but how to tell the player that your not scum and trying to get a benefit from a lynch and a scum kill a night?, anyways I haven’t really looked deep into the power source code but their could possible be a investigative power like that as superdorf as shown, anyways I don’t see the benefit of lynching a player just based on previous bad behavior on other mafia games.
You still seem to be caught up with this idea of the D1 lynch being a random lynch. It's not a random lynch. Depending on the skill of all involved, we can significantly increase our chances of lynching mafia-- or at least, of lynching a relatively unhelpful townie who would've confused us later.
So too: by lynching now rather than later, we get information to guide the next lynch. By choosing to lynch somebody-- anybody-- we generate valuable pages of heated debate that we can reference later. (If we had all chosen the no-lynch today out of simple policy, would we have such interesting reads and suspicions now?) By the roleflip of the dead player we can determine the veracity of that player's words, and we can assess the motivations of those who worked to condemn or exonerate that player. With the nightkill, scum can choose what information we get from player death, if any-- not so with the lynch. This Day gives we the town a valuable opportunity to take the flow of information into our own hands: an opportunity well worth taking!
You speak of investigative roles. We don't want to count on investigative roles. We cannot trust those who claim investigative roles-- not without the social information that we gain now, partly by means of the lynch. So too, those of us who might have investigative roles are guided by that social information as they decide who to target this Night.The reason for voting for FoU, the aggressive Pack wolf play seems averse and he hasn’t made any point why he be useful for town rather then these claims but idkOn this note, I've a question for you. Which is worse, in your mind: the lurker, or the "power wolf"?
2) Yeah sure it gets this kind of heated debate, but the only evidence you get is the words people say, no roles or powers, whatever have comes into play yet so the result is that the person who gets lynched, was only because of the argument one makes. Their are more town in place compared to the scum, this so-called random voting stage and the random vote means the person who gets lynched is because, especially if they were town, is that it was because maybe this townie couldn’t make a good enough argument to sway the other towns and then you lynch a town, another person scum doesn’t have to spend a night action to get rid off. The main question I really don’t see any informative proof based on day 1 of any one who seems “suspect”, only really vendettas and issues with the player’s play style on these type of game. More often than not, even if we try to think that we take the persons argument in consideration, the towns loses a voter and power for following turns while the scum benefits.
Edit: Also mind you is their is also the generic kind of mafia, where only arguments with others can be used instead of dealing with the “meta” of roles and power and that’s the only thing you can rely on, so that’s we’re doing day 1 (or maybe “day 0”) lynch seems more satisfactory and the correct thing to do because everyone can chime in.
3) As stated before the “power wolf” in my view is clearly the most deadly and most likely to work, especially with an incompetent or ill-experienced group, is clearly the best for scum for winning. By taking their arguments to their side of the towns, you pick the towns off both by lynching and the night killing, and everything things your town, maybe the “information” you provided was just incorrect but by taking control of the line of thought for town is the way for scum to win. A lurker has the advantages of staying of the radar of everyone’s eyes, but theirs always the possibility your an inactive town or whatever, people will always try to get you in the line of discussion, for a play by post game it’s much more easier to ask questions to everyone in the given timeframe of multiple days instead of a thirty minute game, meaning the chance of not catching people’s attention is that much more difficult and less likely to happen.
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2019, 09:34:19 am
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2019, 09:42:34 am
Post by: Superdorf on December 21, 2019, 09:46:10 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 21, 2019, 10:03:29 am
In short: forget about evidence, forget what people say when they describe their playstyles and whatnot, and focus on how and why they are saying what they are.
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 21, 2019, 10:39:26 am
The judgement of mine about the lack of judgement on the first day, and trying to utilize the how and why is simple, unless the person isn't being arbitrary or excessively not rationalizing what they are saying and the things they are stating, you can’t really confer that they are scum. While their is still the possibility you can get the advantage head of you, I imagine day one lynches have often resulted in the target being town, and even if that player is a bad town player, sure the game benefits as a whole from it but town just loses another voter swaying in it favor of town.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 21, 2019, 10:48:34 am
trying to utilize the how and why is simple, unless the person isn't being arbitrary or excessively not rationalizing what they are saying and the things they are stating, you can’t really confer that they are scum.Then find the ones who are trying to do that, and those who don't have to; also known as scum and town, respectively. Remember, only scum have to be deceptive, town don't need to be.
Post by: notquitethere on December 21, 2019, 11:01:40 am
Superdorf
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Naturegirl1999, Icytea31, Dolores, Persus13 [4]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth, Superdorf, Shadowclaw777 [3]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31 - FallacyofUrist [1]
Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 30 minutes time).
Post by: Superdorf on December 21, 2019, 11:17:28 am
It’s against my inner nature to double post because I like to be as concise as possible when I try to post but yes I can see myself with them, and fulfilling them with inner rambling. The only reason to edit was to make the reasoning coherent it’s as simple as that, though I will try to rely on additional posting to get the point across for the future
The trouble is, editing can also be used to cover up scummy mistakes as if they never happened-- hence the strict policy.
The "Preview" button is your friend! Make your edits for concision and coherence before you post. :)
Post by: notquitethere on December 21, 2019, 11:34:19 am
The players hammered TricMagic to death. Afterwards, when they were scrolling back through the newly created logs in the Legend Mode, they realised- all too late- that TricMagic's only offense was illegally modding their character to be lava immune.
Superdorf
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Naturegirl1999, Icytea31, Dolores, Persus13 [4]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth, Superdorf, Shadowclaw777 [3]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31 - FallacyofUrist [1]
TricMagic was lynched. TricMagic was town.
Spoiler: TricMagic (click to show/hide)
It's night. Please send your actions as soon as you can. If you don't want to act, please let me know. Night ends when all actions are in in, or in 24 hours: 22nd December 4.30pm GMT
Post by: notquitethere on December 22, 2019, 05:39:43 pm
The players logged in to find a ++llama wool sock++ had been left blocking a doorway, allowing a horde of undead to rampage through the lower meadhalls. Superdorf, despite his name, did not survive.
Superdorf was killed. Superdorf was town.
Spoiler: Superdorf (click to show/hide)
D2 Begins!
Persus13
Dolores
FallacyofUrist
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31
Hammer on 4. Day ends 10.40pm 25th December. The mod will extend the day if people want due to it being Christmas.
Post by: Persus13 on December 22, 2019, 06:17:09 pm
FallacyofUrist[: You were focused on Superdorf and ICT for most of D1, and so I didn't talk to you all that much. Is there anything from D1 you're reconsidering now?
IcyTea: Have you read your Role PM now?
Post by: notquitethere on December 22, 2019, 06:25:18 pm
NQT: Is Superdorf's role/alignment/cause of death not being revealed intentional? Also, my posting on the 24th/25th is going to be severely hampered due to the holidays, so I'd be in favor of an extension.That was a mistaken omission. Now there.
Day 2 is extended to 10.40pm on the 26th (hammer still at normal time).
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 22, 2019, 08:43:37 pm
Whoever replaces dolores is town. I estimated that a decent bait directed against their previous ideas might draw them to post despite being out, if and only if they had the investment in the game common to townies.How does this make dolores town rather than someone with more time on their hands than expected, which is what dolores claimed to be?
Shadow: if we assume there aren't any alignment investigations in this game, what do you think the best way to find scum is?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 03:04:31 am
Have you read your Role PM now?Yes. It changed nothing. I'd like to hear you speculate on why I performed no night action.
How does this make dolores town rather than someone with more time on their hands than expected, which is what dolores claimed to be?It proves that dolores was highly invested in the game and willing to get a word in during the day to respond to a case, despite thinking they were breaking the rules in doing so. In other words, they still wanted to win, knowing that they could only win by posting during the day. I estimate scum!dolores wouldn't care enough to play after out'ing, as scum can (theoretically) win with passive play.
If you out'ed, do you think it would be easier to lure you back into the game if you were town or scum?
I wouldn't have really classed it as a personal attack though.What, then, would you classify dolores' argument against you as? The patronizing argument was directly pointed against your self-declared metagame and your knowledge of the consensus mafia theory.
I promised a read list to Superdorf, here it is:
Persus13: Scum or Cop. Sneaky play to stay under the radar. After the meta discussion, there are several larhe posts but most arguments seem to be advice and observations rather than spotlight-stealing accusations. Either has a powerful role they can rely on to win the game, or has another thing to hide.
Dolores*: Town. Extremely invested player displaying effective scumhunting.
FallacyofUrist: Slight town. Orthodox town play. Investigated Superdorf's drop well. Clumsy about keeping their arguments self-consistent.
Deus Asmoth: Slight scum. Posts are few and not particularly content-filled. States that this is their personal playstyle, but it remains that it hasn't been very effective town play.
Naturegirl1999: Slight town. Timid to make accusations, but asks a lot of pretty insightful questions. Doesn't have an obvious buddy.
Shadowclaw777: Scum. Quickly jumps to conclusions and states other players are suspicious, but then doesn't actually chase after them to ascertain those reads. For isntance, voted for FoU speaking a single word directly to them. Active, but not playing for the town wincon.
*Or whoever replaces them.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 03:06:11 am
See above post. Realized I should include their name in the formatting.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 23, 2019, 07:13:21 am
It would have literally no effect on my decision.How does this make dolores town rather than someone with more time on their hands than expected, which is what dolores claimed to be?It proves that dolores was highly invested in the game and willing to get a word in during the day to respond to a case, despite thinking they were breaking the rules in doing so. In other words, they still wanted to win, knowing that they could only win by posting during the day. I estimate scum!dolores wouldn't care enough to play after out'ing, as scum can (theoretically) win with passive play.
If you out'ed, do you think it would be easier to lure you back into the game if you were town or scum?
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[/quote]I wouldn't have really classed it as a personal attack though.What, then, would you classify dolores' argument against you as? The patronizing argument was directly pointed against your self-declared metagame and your knowledge of the consensus mafia theory.
I'd classify it as a poor meta read. I'd also classify your assessment of her argument as wrong, since she hasn't responded to my points about my meta game at all as far as I can tell, nor has she made any real response to my thoughts on mafia theory.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 23, 2019, 12:51:49 pm
FallacyofUrist[: You were focused on Superdorf and ICT for most of D1, and so I didn't talk to you all that much. Is there anything from D1 you're reconsidering now?Superdorf was town, and now I'm partly regretting pointing out the danger his abilities created to the mafia - after all, he is now dead. If I didn't make him seem so useful perhaps he wouldn't have been targeted. I would rather have been killed myself to be honest, in his place.
IcyTea31 is still a valid vote for the moment, however. I don't like how he considers me to be a town player.
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 23, 2019, 12:57:32 pm
Shadowclaw777.
See above post. Realized I should include their name in the formatting.
Pretty foolish on that train of thought, I didn’t pursue the train of thought simple because I doubt it would come up with attention from the others and we had like a day left to pursue that agenda, and I doubt it would come up with attention, I’m simply trying to ascertain who’s doing what is suspicious, and after recollecting you’re previous posts especially on TricMagic, I felt like he was certainly town, you said even if he was town you should still vote him off just because he would be a bad player because of his lack of activity. This is clearly an anti-town move, and my rationale is probably that the ones voted that user off have the potential to have collaborated with you, I don’t know if their is a mafia sub-chat even more so it’s time to reveal my role. You know those questions I’m been asking before?, that role is a Town Vigilante well rather a Town Arsonist, and the one I primed is based on random chance. Anyways if anyone has been most suspect has probably been you and the highest probability for being scum. You have done too many seeming anti-town moves that have created too much suspicion. Maybe defer what your role is too town, to make people trust you. Or do you really have such a powerful role that it needs to hidden?
As for the FallacyOfUrist thing their were people already voting for him; and with his fascination with catgirls I had really nothing to go on, and the logic bringing him up to lynch was somewhat hail marry.
Currently my logic goes to voting IceyTea31
ICTWhoever replaces dolores is town. I estimated that a decent bait directed against their previous ideas might draw them to post despite being out, if and only if they had the investment in the game common to townies.How does this make dolores town rather than someone with more time on their hands than expected, which is what dolores claimed to be?
Shadow: if we assume there aren't any alignment investigations in this game, what do you think the best way to find scum is?
As stated most likely by founding inconsistencies in people arguments, people who get too aggressive or pushy for someone to be lynched even with lack of evidence trying to get mafia get two kills which they did for this night. Basically simple critical thinking of what other people are saying, and focus on what the people who are leading the discussion are saying, they most likely are trying to stir people to vote for towns since they know who scum is.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 03:12:06 pm
It would have literally no effect on my decision.That's a lie you tell to yourself. All of us are vulnerable to the sunk cost fallacy, and knowing that town has to put in more work to win, town is also less likely to throw all that work away than scum. That work is what I mean when I say someone is invested in the game.
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I'd classify it as a poor meta read. I'd also classify your assessment of her argument as wrong, since she hasn't responded to my points about my meta game at all as far as I can tell, nor has she made any real response to my thoughts on mafia theory.You're moving away from her RVS question, which was your original point and the point I was responding to.
Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?How is this question and the arguments following from it not provocatively directed at your past performance and arguments?
I don't like how he considers me to be a town player.Shadow-chasing town is still town. You're making arguments which you believe to be true and asked the right questions to Superdorf to make the drop even more informative to town. Importantly, your posts had some inconsistencies which imply you're not carefully building your arguments and are typing what you honestly believe.
What actually is your argument for lynching me, right now? As far as you've said so far on this day, your vote is pure gut. Previously, you wanted me lynched for not reading my PM, which I now have done.
Pretty foolish on that train of thought, I didn’t pursue the train of thought simple because I doubt it would come up with attention from the others and we had like a day left to pursue that agendaThis is Mafia. Everything you say will be carefully scrutinized. And if you had something to say, why didn't you say it earlier?
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after recollecting you’re previous posts especially on TricMagic, I felt like he was certainly townTric had made a grand total of a single post in this game. What made you feel he was "certainly town"?
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you said even if he was town you should still vote him off just because he would be a bad player because of his lack of activity.Lynching lurkers is smart even if town, because doing so removes a black hole from the town's knowledge. Anyone you can talk to, you can read the alignment of. If someone doesn't talk, that ability, one of the few abilities town players have on their side, is gone.
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the one I primed is based on random chance.Holy shit. After complaining that you don't want the lynch to be random, you use a random nightkill? In what world is that a sensible pro-town move?
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As for the FallacyOfUrist thing their were people already voting for himThis is called bandwagoning. Voting for someone for no reason other than that others are already voting for them is one of the worst possible reasons for it.
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and with his fascination with catgirlsInteresting; you've read through some past games on this forum. They should have shown you how daygame scumhunting works, so why hadn't you even attempted doing what people did in those games?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 03:14:44 pm
why hadn't you even attempted doing what people did in those games?What I mean by "hadn't": your latest post is the kind of post you should have been making through all of D1; a good post actually trying to make a clear point and investigate a suspicion. Did your scumbuddy coach you to make it?
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 23, 2019, 03:38:07 pm
Also no lol, FallacyOfUrist meme about catgirls existed in Forum Games and Roleplaying and always been a thing to scrutinize about the user, the joke has dried out but no I haven’t check how you effectively scum hunt, you always try to rely on a Town Sheriff or whatever but my experience without powers is certainly lacking. I don’t know exactly how you can get a reliable day one scum lynch, unless the scum users are really bad at making discussion, than your hoping that the target just happens to be a scum.
why hadn't you even attempted doing what people did in those games?What I mean by "hadn't": your latest post is the kind of post you should have been making through all of D1; a good post actually trying to make a clear point and investigate a suspicion. Did your scumbuddy coach you to make it?
Sorry I don’t got someone coaching me lol, all these arguments come from me. My main thing I’m trying to say is you were the only one being aggressive towards Tric, how would you possibility know that he is scum?, he was easy pickings a part of your scum-discussion and team, everyone would go after the inactive town player, so a easy a lynch. You probably are being apart of the scum team and know that I’m an easy picking because I make “shitty arguments” so your trying to encourage the others to vote me in.
Anyways we probably have 2 or 3 Scum players out of the 7 (I don’t think 4 Scum out of 9, seems exactly fair...) and this is the most critical moment in this game since once we reach the point that their are equal or more scum players, than they can tie-lock and kill each night. So if their is three scum players, if the lynch comes out to town, unless their is another vigilante to even the odds the scum practically win, unless their is 2 of them.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 03:59:24 pm
the only way was to synergize with Tric and have the whole town primed and than burn everyone aliveHOW?! Tric is dead, and was dead when the night started; unless you have a revive in your pocket, you're literally planning to kill everyone. Since the chance of hitting town with a random move is much higher, the only thing this "hail mary" can reliably do is lose the game for town.
If you're not scum and actually are this incompetent, please, PLEASE go read some of those past games and learn how to play this game. Seriously, in the pre-game, dolores even offered to mentor you! Why didn't you accept?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 04:02:03 pm
I'd like to hear you speculate on why I performed no night action.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 04:12:24 pm
I haven’t check how you effectively scum hunt, you always try to rely on a Town Sheriff or whatever but my experience without powers is certainly lacking. I don’t know exactly how you can get a reliable day one scum lynchBut there isn't a town sheriff here now, is there? Why haven't you tried to learn?
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My main thing I’m trying to say is you were the only one being aggressive towards Tric, how would you possibility know that he is scum?I didn't. Did you even read my arguments against him?
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You probably are being apart of the scum team and know that I’m an easy picking because I make “shitty arguments” so your trying to encourage the others to vote me in.Where's your precious "evidence" of this? You're voting for what would normally be a valid scumhunt-based reason, but you've specifically noted you have no idea how to do that. I find it hard to believe you could actually be the "noobtown" we'd normally give some leeway to when you're suddenly making sense.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 23, 2019, 04:17:16 pm
Anyways we probably have 2 or 3 Scum players out of the 7 (I don’t think 4 Scum out of 9, seems exactly fair...) and this is the most critical moment in this game since once we reach the point that their are equal or more scum players, than they can tie-lock and kill each night. So if their is three scum players, if the lynch comes out to town, unless their is another vigilante to even the odds the scum practically win, unless their is 2 of them.Actually, if scum have the second prime/ignite and you hit town with your prime, it's already MILO since scum can double-kill the next night.
Going to unvote just to avoid a quickhammer if I'm wrong about you being scum, Shadowclaw. Because maybe you really just are an idiot.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 23, 2019, 05:39:55 pm
This is a completely ridiculous claim. Yes, the town needs to do more work than the scum to win. That doesn't mean that a player who's invested enough to make a post after requesting a replacement is town.It would have literally no effect on my decision.That's a lie you tell to yourself. All of us are vulnerable to the sunk cost fallacy, and knowing that town has to put in more work to win, town is also less likely to throw all that work away than scum. That work is what I mean when I say someone is invested in the game.
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It certainly didn't look like you were asking about her original question, since my references to my metagame and thoughts on mafia theory came up after that, and that's what you mentioned in your question to me.QuoteI'd classify it as a poor meta read. I'd also classify your assessment of her argument as wrong, since she hasn't responded to my points about my meta game at all as far as I can tell, nor has she made any real response to my thoughts on mafia theory.You're moving away from her RVS question, which was your original point and the point I was responding to.
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I mean, what's supposed to be provocative about it? It's a bad faith argument, sure. I already asked dolores about that. I personally wouldn't call it a personal attack, but if you would then I don't see much point in arguing about it.Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?How is this question and the arguments following from it not provocatively directed at your past performance and arguments?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 23, 2019, 06:49:12 pm
Shadow:
Can you explain this logic? What anti-town moves have you been seeing from ICT?Shadowclaw777.
See above post. Realized I should include their name in the formatting.
Pretty foolish on that train of thought, I didn’t pursue the train of thought simple because I doubt it would come up with attention from the others and we had like a day left to pursue that agenda, and I doubt it would come up with attention, I’m simply trying to ascertain who’s doing what is suspicious, and after recollecting you’re previous posts especially on TricMagic, I felt like he was certainly town, you said even if he was town you should still vote him off just because he would be a bad player because of his lack of activity. This is clearly an anti-town move, and my rationale is probably that the ones voted that user off have the potential to have collaborated with you, I don’t know if their is a mafia sub-chat even more so it’s time to reveal my role. You know those questions I’m been asking before?, that role is a Town Vigilante well rather a Town Arsonist, and the one I primed is based on random chance. Anyways if anyone has been most suspect has probably been you and the highest probability for being scum. You have done too many seeming anti-town moves that have created too much suspicion. Maybe defer what your role is too town, to make people trust you. Or do you really have such a powerful role that it needs to hidden?
As for the FallacyOfUrist thing their were people already voting for him; and with his fascination with catgirls I had really nothing to go on, and the logic bringing him up to lynch was somewhat hail marry.
Currently my logic goes to voting IceyTea31
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 23, 2019, 07:40:14 pm
You can say I’m a bad player and need mentoring or whatever I really don’t since you know I’ve have played Town of Salem for years and got bored of it (while it has some similarities that can apply, the main thing you have to rely on is arguments instead of relying on the roles), maybe I’m trying to feign ignorance to not rise suspicion or just a really bad town player?, All I have is that I can ignite two random people that I primed from the previous night and get two random kills, which might be necessary if the lynched target is town >.>, than again I believe killing gets priority igniting so *shrugs* (Since it’s possible their would be (3 Scum/3 Town) after the lynch.
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2019, 09:21:04 pm
I'm kindof interested in why Naturegirl hasn't shown up yet today, although to be fair, I'm one to talk.
What's your current case on ICT right now, Shadowclaw? I tried reading your post, but I'm pretty tired and couldn't wrap my head around it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 23, 2019, 10:26:54 pm
All I have is that I can ignite two random people that I primed from the previous night and get two random kills, which might be necessary if the lynched target is town >.>, than again I believe killing gets priority igniting so *shrugs* (Since it’s possible their would be (3 Scum/3 Town) after the lynch.I would, and I imagine the rest of the town would as well, appreciate a further explanation of this.
~~~
I fully intend to fabricate a longer case on IcyTea tomorrow. For the moment I'll unvote IcyTea for the sake of avoiding a hammer in the meantime.
I have a few ideas about things I've noticed that I need to string together.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 24, 2019, 08:04:03 am
This is a completely ridiculous claim. Yes, the town needs to do more work than the scum to win. That doesn't mean that a player who's invested enough to make a post after requesting a replacement is town.So you're saying that scum!dolores would care enough about me disagreeing with her townread on Superdorf to do something she believed was breaking the rules? For town!dolores that read would be the result of a lot of work, while for scum!dolores it would be a throwaway fabrication that she wouldn't actually care about. Town players care about the daygame. That's the whole point that is common wisdom for scumhunting.
ICT: As a matter of fact, given that you claim that dolores has been displaying effective scumhunting, what's your opinion on her switching her vote from FOU (a person it actually looked like she was building a case on) to TricMagic (for a policy lynch) with two hours left in the day, tying the vote in the process?I'm not dolores. If I was, I'd probably give her usual spiel of building cases on people she doesn't want lynched yet, just in case she will want in the future. She had built a case on TricMagic beforehand, but I can't be sure why she chose TricMagic in the end over FoU. Could be she had a hunch about FoU possibly being town after I mentioned it?
If you think I have a more a thorough thinking on who is scum, yeah I got no clueIf you don't need mentoring, why don't you have a clue who's scum?
--
I really don’t [need mentoring] since you know I’ve have played Town of Salem for years
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I can ignite two random people that I primed!!!!
If scum have the other prime/ignite, it's LYLO. On freaking D2.
/me strikes his head against the desk
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 24, 2019, 11:05:30 am
As you say later, you're not dolores, so why are you putting words in her mouth? She never said that it was against the rules to post here after requesting a replacement. And in spite of your attempts to claim credit for baiting her into posting, most of that post wasn't directed at you at all. The fact that you're presenting it as such- and that dolores was more than willing to allow you to do so- is probably the scummiest thing in this game as of yet.This is a completely ridiculous claim. Yes, the town needs to do more work than the scum to win. That doesn't mean that a player who's invested enough to make a post after requesting a replacement is town.So you're saying that scum!dolores would care enough about me disagreeing with her townread on Superdorf to do something she believed was breaking the rules?
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I'm not asking you to theorise on why she did it, I'm asking you to explain how you marry your claim that she's scumhunting effectively when her last contribution to the game was abandoning the case she had been pursuing to tie the vie over a policy lynch.ICT: As a matter of fact, given that you claim that dolores has been displaying effective scumhunting, what's your opinion on her switching her vote from FOU (a person it actually looked like she was building a case on) to TricMagic (for a policy lynch) with two hours left in the day, tying the vote in the process?I'm not dolores. If I was, I'd probably give her usual spiel of building cases on people she doesn't want lynched yet, just in case she will want in the future. She had built a case on TricMagic beforehand, but I can't be sure why she chose TricMagic in the end over FoU. Could be she had a hunch about FoU possibly being town after I mentioned it?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 24, 2019, 02:36:24 pm
Rule-breaking by posting after requesting a replacement:
Most places don't allow it, actually, but what are you gonna do, ban me? I don't give a fuck.
--
Also I shouldn't be posting in the thread since I'm not playing, so you're addresing questions to someone outside of the thread who can't reply within it.
Coming back due to my intentionally provocative post:
I don't like the change in content with my going out (and use of that fact is another reason it's verbotten to post after going out, this is literally cheating), especially since it's a change in content away from what I'm looking for and I won't be able to follow up on that (and his anticipated subsequent flip-flop after this post) in my abscence.
I realize that I'm the one saying this, but [IcyTea31's] play to produce the townread on me was the most brilliant shit I've ever fucking seen.
Effective scumhunting (didn't think this was arguable):
Persus13: you've voted someone who you've not asked any questions to, and who has asked you unanswered relevant questions. Any plans on reeling this in or coming out of this without hostile D1 attention?
Where are your RVS questions, Naturegirl1999?
Well, you told me to feel free to target you. You're targeted, TricMagic
Shadowclaw777: some players have made sufficently substantial posts to give an impression in this game. Developed any initial reads yet?
If you're going to call me and dolores scumbuddies, you should do so openly rather than just implying it. Am I buddies with dolores, Deus Asmoth? If that's the case, why would scum!dolores tie the vote in favour of FoU instead of lynching a strong town player, unless FoU was scum as well? Are there 3 scum?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 24, 2019, 11:20:29 pm
- I'm scum.
- Scum is already voting for me.
- Scum don't believe it's LYLO.
Persus13: Earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067874#msg8067874) you said that a town vig is a powerful tool in the right hands. Is Shadowclaw a bad town vig or scum trying to hide behind idiocy? Is there a valid reason a town vig would ever use a random-target kill, outside of something like being outnumbered by scum already? (This keeping in mind that in this game, random-target abilities can also hit the user.)
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 24, 2019, 11:29:25 pm
Naturegirl1999: Who do you think is scum, after what happened in the night? You haven't made a D2 post yet.
FallacyofUrist: Waiting for promised content. I still don't understand what your case on me is, beyond gut.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 25, 2019, 06:41:02 am
Naturegirl1999: Who do you think is scum, after what happened in the night? You haven't made a D2 post yet.I’m thinking Shadowclaw777 because you’ve been asking many questions and answering others’ questions which makes me think you are town. Shadowclaww777 is voting for you. I haven’t seen anti town behavior from you. Shadowclaw doesn’t seem to provide reasons for voting you
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 25, 2019, 01:20:29 pm
[/quote]Quote--If you don't need mentoring, why don't you have a clue who's scum?
I really don’t [need mentoring] since you know I’ve have played Town of Salem for yearsQuoteI can ignite two random people that I primed!!!!
If scum have the other prime/ignite, it's LYLO. On freaking D2.
/me strikes his head against the desk
Explain to me if we lynch town today how it’s not a LYLO situation if their is three scum?, how the hell are you suppose to use a Town Arsonist effectively?, even more so since it provides random targets, most games last to day 3 it seems so I doubt not priming Day 1 would of done anything good. Yeah maybe I could of made mafia suspicious by saying I was a town vigilante day 1 and take the hit so superdwarf can get their ability to be used a second time. Let’s say the target we get lynched is town, and have three mafia, should I not ignite two random targets even if we’re in a LYLO or worse situation?
Also about the thing about player skill, I highly doubt that I’m lacking it just usually having my judgment being necessitated by town roles and death notes that don’t exist in this format. Their has to be a minimum of two scum, so everyone evading suspicion kinda just of confuses thing up. Like for Naturegirl1999 I doubt she has has high player skill and picking up on who’s suspicious, since the lack of content in her posts primarily. Like I know I’m town, but at least I’m not trying to lead the conversation, either your trying to bamboozle town in getting a lynch that isn’t scum or making a desperado attempt to hope we get a lynch on the correct scum so that mafia has a chance. Someone needs to take the noose this day even if it’s town, or we pretty much lose
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 25, 2019, 02:20:15 pm
That you don't understand how the daygame works is not an excuse to reduce the chances of those who do by turning the game into a worse gamble; I would like to believe that I have a better than 3/8 chance of hitting scum with a lynch. (Generously assuming 3 scum, which would be bloody stupid in a 9-player game anyway.) Did you know that random-target abilities can self-target in this setup? You can't even play a gambit where you prime everyone else and burn everyone to win.
You're either a massive pile of the Dunning-Kruger effect or the most brilliant scum ever in making me believe you actually think you're playing well. I'm inclined to choose the former, which would turn my attention to the next scummiest on my readlist: Deus Asmoth.
DA: would you consider the current gamestate to be a possible LYLO, keeping in mind the two claimed random primes?
Since I haven't been quickhammered and because of my scenario No. 2 above, FallacyofUrist is also suspicious to me at the moment due to his earlier vote.
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 02:41:16 pm
Expect three posts from me over the next 6-12 hours: regarding initial thoughts and some explanations of my reasoning while out, a post to engage with the current gamestate, and then any actual cases I can make. There are three people who I could be sold as being obvscum without having read any further, so there should be at least one out of that.
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 04:08:04 pm
For someone who was/is such easy obvscum, I'd like to have gone looking through their past games to be certain that it wasn't possible for it to be their towngame. We were probably going to have to lynch Tric anyway, but there's an opportunity cost to killing FoU D1 in that we might get further evidence as to whether or not they're actually scum. Unfortunately, nobody pressed my case in my absence. Whatever, let's get this bread.
Yes. It changed nothing. I'd like to hear you speculate on why I performed no night action.Because you don't have an activatable. Superdorf's confirmed list of half the abilities was getting 3 results per use with 9 players, which means there were 6-7 abilities and 2-3 passives like Tric's prime immunity. Superdorf never rolled census, so we had 6 of 6-7 abilities. I'm aware there are other possible answers, but I'm making this note because this:
Superdorf was town, and now I'm partly regretting pointing out the danger his abilities created to the mafia - after all, he is now dead. If I didn't make him seem so useful perhaps he wouldn't have been targeted. I would rather have been killed myself to be honest, in his place.is some dumb shit. It's so oblique to anything possibly useful and this weird kind of possibly contrite emoting over a player dying that you literally get told not to do in the opening posts of BMs.
Anyway, my action type is brainwash. It's vanishingly unlikely that anyone other than me can redirect you or change your action type. I'll leave the WIFOM about why I was trying to bait out the scumkill to your internal speculation.
IcyTea31 is still a valid vote for the moment, however. I don't like how he considers me to be a town player.Same, but at least people are going to vote for you now.
This is a completely ridiculous claim. Yes, the town needs to do more work than the scum to win. That doesn't mean that a player who's invested enough to make a post after requesting a replacement is town.Cute.
Most places don't allow it, actually, but what are you gonna do, ban me? I don't give a fuck.You'll notice that the way I presented this I went out of my way to avoid implying I might get modkilled. Because I broke the rules and was doing so intentionally, and if I got modkilled, it was a way worse outcome than the value I was likely to get out of the post. That was my primary concern. I don't think it's ambiguous.
If I'm so worried about the modkill, why the fuck would I post as scum where there's no benefit to me to do anything but lurk if I have an excuse while I already had a relatively secure town glow?
Your meta arguments are consistently shit and mostly in bad faith, and I don't know if that's you or you're actually the type of person to give intentionally bad advice as scum. Mostly, the way in which they seem to worry you seems to imply that you might be scum. Whatever.
I could have been a lot more active while out, but I wasn't playing or planning to have to replace in, and I've no intention of half-assing games, I don't think that's good for me.
Super brief rundown before I really engage with the thread, these are all gutreads that have room for development that I'll get to later:
Dolores, Icytea31: unambiguously town, I, for one, find it personally hilarious that people are voting ICT when he's literally more than half the content of D2 and the significant majority of actual work on D2
Persus13: town PR. Previously I compared him disfavorably to DA, subsequent to which Persus continued to make reasonable arguments, moved his RVS vote from ICT to create pressure and then to break the tie I created by accident. Inactive due to external circumstances.
Naturegirl1999: there's not much here, but nothing I really have a problem with. Needs to post way more.
Shadowclaw777: unambiguously openly anti-town. Claims that they have literally no way of finding scum, but also votes for close to the only person doing any work to find scum D2. I don't really believe that they're scum (positively) but I've got literally no evidence to the contrary and plenty of evidence that they don't have the town's interests at heart.
Deus Asmoth: This needs more space, especially because it was born as a gut read, but D2 they've done nothing useful but lean weakly on Shadowclaw, which reeks of backup lynch given how weak sc777's play is and how they're both supporting the current push on ICT which means both players will be high and dry
This is a completely ridiculous claim: The fact that you're presenting it as such- and that dolores was more than willing to allow you to do so- is probably the scummiest thing in this game as of yet.You're right, that is a completely rediculous claim. The scummiest thing in this game is the post where
FallacyofUrist: claims that he has no interest in lynching scum,
Now, if we take the phrase 'right now' to mean 'at the time of answering this question'... then it would be logical to say that I should hammer vote whoever looks the most opposed to town, yes?then lays out two suspicions he could pursue, and then says that the player he would quickhammer if forced is the one that he thinks is antitown (in the same D1 with TricMagic) and that, furthermore, he regrets that he can not quickhammer him
...
Not reading your role PM immediately is an anti-town move.
...
Superdorf: To answer your first question I would hammervote IcyTea if I had to, due to the previously mentioned issues with not reading his role PM
Superdorf: To answer your first question I would hammervote IcyTea if I had to, due to the previously mentioned issues with not reading his role PM. And while I may not be able to hammer I can of course simply vote him.This isn't even part of the reason I was voting for FoU D1. I literally just noticed this when I was looking for the material I actually tried to make a case on (and which he never addressed) for the joke.
1/3, that's the short post out of the way
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 05:27:08 pm
D1:
Naturegrill2000: why are you still fielding questions without any questions of your own? I'm really not down with your passivity and lack of apparent desire to know more about the roles and alignment of other players. If TricMagic had posted literally anything, I'd be voting you now.NG still needs to get way more active. They haven't done anything but lean weakly on and vote TricMagic and then Shadowclaw, both really weak players. Very little work or content ex nihilo.
It blows my mind that you apparently are willing to give a town read to a player who has admitted to not knowing what side they're playing for.That's cos I'm town. See, I don't actually know the alignments of other players. So when a player acts like they're town, I'm inclined to believe that they're going to continue to act like they're town. Leaving aside the fact that I literally made that read conditional under the condition for which that was the only possible correct read, I've got no way of knowing whether or not ICT has read his rolePM. I could to this day not have read my rolePM. I'm trying really hard to tease out this point, but basically, it scans as scummy to my eyes the fact that you're unwilling to claim any sort of opinion on highly active players under the presumption (for which you have no evidence) that their role is unknowable. It implies that you don't want to give away that the reads you state won't line up with your actual beliefs i.e. that you're holding out on us with alignment information.
My assertion was that your activity would have to be noticeably lower as scum than as town if you had any sort of functional towngame.Besides the fact that there's more anecdotal evidence of this than literally any other claim that has ever been made about tells/slips in mafia, it's also obvious from first principles. Town players can optimize their play for maximum volume of work without reducing their ability to be townread 'per unit work', whereas scum can't because they can't write stream-of-consicousness like town can.This will always be true and will always be what matters. Sure, relative to other players activity might not mean much if you're physically or psychologically unable (or unwilling) to devote more than a given amount of time or can't produce as much work per unit time as another player, but activity relative to a given player is always relevant and you, in particular, have given no reason why your established metagame can't be used to evaluate you without at least relatively high efficacy.I have, actually. Your implication was that my activity is noticeable lower as scum than as town, which is blatantly untrue.
It's your implication that you're not as active as town as you could be. Are you stung because you feel guilty about throwing games as town, or are you trying to deflect away from the fact that you're worried that you're easily identifiable as scum?
If anything, a good scum player should be one with higher activity, since the optimal play for scum is both to appear to be town and to direct the town into pursuing bad lynches, which would both be aided by high activity under your assertions.Sure, and an optimal town would just silently quickhammer scum every day and take their night actions in perfect miraculous coordination, but that's hardly realisitic, is it?
It is easier to put out work as town, which means that the maximum work you can put out as town is higher than the maximum work you can put out as scum. Appearing as town is explictly not aided by high activity. We lynched TricMagic D1 because we believed that. Players who don't post anything are lynched because they are unable to be read. The reasoning is that, if you post, you are more likely to be read as your alignment than you are based on purely random chance. There's no fucking way you don't know this.
And if you're writing stream of consciousness, you're not optimising your work in the first place, you're just spamming everyone else with more stuff they have to sift through to find what you're actually trying to say.There is no "actually trying to say". "Actually trying to say" is a purely scum concept. Why are you thinking it? If I can bare my entire mind to you, you know my alignment. The less composed I am, the more likely you are to get a true read of my alignment, free of my interference. My interference will always be to your detriment if I am scum and you are not.
I'll put something together to try to convince other players of something as town. But this is a dishonest act. If I just posted my gut reads naked on the actual basis of why they're there and what they are, I'd be a lot less successful in getting other players lynched. But you'd always know when I'm town. I'm not really in danger of being lynched, so that's why I don't do that. The whole point of pressure is to get players to do that, because their alignment is in doubt.
The reason for voting for FoU, the aggressive Pack wolf play seems averse and he hasn’t made any point why he be useful for town rather then these claims but idkShadowclaw will vote fucking anyone over this shit, which means that it's very likely unironic and so not alignment indicative.
Vote FallacyOfUrist
D2:
DA fields questions (a total of three, with one line answers) for two posts and leans weakly on shadowclaw in a way that was covered D1. Doesn't vote anyone or make any sort of case, despite not asking questions of his own. Really got me wondering how he plans on finding scum as opposed to, say, lynching an exceptionally weak town player like we did on D1.
Superdorf was town, and now I'm partly regretting pointing out the danger his abilities created to the mafia - after all, he is now dead. If I didn't make him seem so useful perhaps he wouldn't have been targeted. I would rather have been killed myself to be honest, in his place.Apparently you could only afford to post two lines, and you posted this. There's nothing possibly more valuable you could do with your time, player who asks no questions opening D2?
IcyTea31 is still a valid vote for the moment, however.Fucking how. YOU NEVER EXPLAIN THIS SHIT.
You said that you thought he was doing something anti-town D1. Even if that were true: he also stopped doing it D1, and you don't actually know his alignment. You could at least ask some questions to him if you're going to blow off D2 as well D1 for a policy lynch based on something he explictly isn't guilty of anymore. How can you argue that it's hard to get a read on him so he should be lynched when you've done nothing to get a read on him this entire game.
I don't like how he considers me to be a town player.me 2 buddi
...
This joke is never going to get old
Currently my logic goes to voting IceyTea31This is technically correct, even if shadowclaw's logic has literally positive impact on attempts to win mafia. I don't think he's ever lied to us, I'll have to check this later. There might actually be a strong case for town!shadowclaw.
If this is some 4000IQ scum play there's not much we can do without material to compare it to anyway. Still an alignment-neutral antitown read from me though, I'm never going to be caught endorsing this.
Holy shit. After complaining that you don't want the lynch to be random, you use a random nightkill? In what world is that a sensible pro-town move?Lynches block actions (for the following action), you get two night actions before prime/ignite kills you (and one from regular nightkills). If you assume that it's only possible to win games as town through night actions, it's easy to deduce that lynches would be the last alternative.
It's the dumbest shit I've ever fucking heard but I can actually buy that that's how he's thinking.
naturegirl1999 I'm of the mind that shadowclaw777 is more likely to be bad than scum. Who are you suspicious of besides them? You haven't been asking many questions, so you must have a relatively good idea of at least one other player as scum.
2/3, surprisingly little that had to be followed up on (besides FoU which I'm coming to)
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 25, 2019, 07:21:25 pm
naturegirl1999 I'm of the mind that shadowclaw777 is more likely to be bad than scum. Who are you suspicious of besides them? You haven't been asking many questions, so you must have a relatively good idea of at least one other player as scum.Others I find suspicious are FallscyofUrist and Deus Asinov
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 07:28:15 pm
Others I find suspicious are FallscyofUrist and Deus AsinovSure
Mind elaborating as to why?
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 09:55:57 pm
First post:
Superdorf: To answer your first question I would hammervote IcyTea if I had to, due to the previously mentioned issues with not reading his role PM. And while I may not be able to hammer I can of course simply vote him.I went over this before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8069941#msg8069941)
It's hard to believe that any town player would ever think like this. Whatever, it's not important.
There's a persistent emphasis on WIFOM play (that make no fucking sense) that starts with this first post.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Second post carries this forward
The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.Bolded for emphasis. FoU gets to this later, but it seems like the WIFOM is an intensely shitty setup to try to frame Superdorf. What bothers me on a meta level is that FoU literally drinks the fucking poison and only puts out wine for the rest of us: if there were three passives, Superdorf literally revealed the entirety of the information he could ever obtain with his ability right out the gate of D1. As I mentioned D1, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8068390#msg8068390) the only person who ever seemed convinced there was ever any merit to any of this wine was FoU and he literally framed it as "either Superdorf is mafia or mafia really want to kill him" while trying to kill him. There was a lull while we waited for some promised activity which was delivered, and other than that the only thing Superdorf ever did wrong (scummily) was panick and defend himself when 2/3 of the town activity was people attacking him, so I can sorta see why you'd want to do this (in a way which actually works).
If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.
Spoiler: More of the same (click to show/hide)
I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.This is technically true only because ICT was IC-posting as an alignmentless observer at this point
~~~
In truth, Superdorf looks more mafia-like than IcyTea does.
I've quoted a lot of what FoU had said about Superdorf at this time already in this post, and the rest of it elsewhere already. There's nothing but wine. There's no comment on activity, nothing about Superdorf promising content, not even questions. He doesn't ask Superdorf to do work or comment on the (large amount) of work Superdorf was doing. Nothing. There's this dumb WIFOM which boils down to "Scum will kill you for being useful, so maybe you're actually scum. That said, I'd like to kill you now". Nothing about an actual daygame anywhere.
Why am I not voting him at present?But wait, there's more! FoU states very strongly that he thinks that Superdorf is mafia, but votes for someone unrelated who he had only said this to/about:
Because if he is town then keeping him alive will be very beneficial. I want to be absolutely certain that he's mafia before any vote.
IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.
Spoiler: FoU3->ICT (click to show/hide)
Anyway, he raises the possibility that ICT has made this claim explicitly because he is scum this game but doesn't follow up on it by doing any of the things you normally do to determine a player's alignment, nor did he do so when he voted him first in RVS or the post between these two. For reference, this is <18hrs to the end of D1. This is the case that FoU wanted to end the day on. All this nothing.
This is where FoU's vote was when we lynched TricMagic. The most benign possible interpretation of this case is that FoU wanted to lynch ICT for being antitown. On D1, where we lynched TricMagic for not posting ever, and where ICT did more work than any other player.
D2:
Superdorf was town, and now I'm partly regretting pointing out the danger his abilities created to the mafia - after all, he is now dead. If I didn't make him seem so useful perhaps he wouldn't have been targeted. I would rather have been killed myself to be honest, in his place.
IcyTea31 is still a valid vote for the moment, however. I don't like how he considers me to be a town player.
I fully intend to fabricate a longer case on IcyTea tomorrow. For the moment I'll unvote IcyTea for the sake of avoiding a hammer in the meantime.That's it.
I have a few ideas about things I've noticed that I need to string together.
I did crop a single line throwaway where he asks Shadowclaw777 what the fuck he is talking about, but I think that's more a human reaction than anything to do with the game of mafia. It's a scum player asking about the mechanics of a/the town arson anyway.
Oh right
Spoiler: m2bdE (click to show/hide)
Anyway, there's nothing there. As I said before, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8069961#msg8069961) even if we pretend that you had a reason to vote ICT for being antitown D1 (lmao), there's no fucking way you could claim that it still applies unless you're saying he still doesn't know his role.
I fully intend to fabricate a longer case on IcyTea tomorrow.At least you're honest.
I can't wait to see this
I can, at this point, imagine a world in which DA is town. I don't think it's likely, which is a strong indictment given that I'm calling him out of a pool of 5 players, but there's at least a dialogue here. I'm not holding my breath for anything from FoU.
Plus I can read his old games over N2 to get a better position even without the ongoing dialogue.
3/3
FallacyofUrist
Post by: dolores on December 25, 2019, 10:08:20 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 25, 2019, 10:15:14 pm
NQT: Was the number of Mafia ever stated? I'm seeing people throw around numbers, and I don't recall actually seeing any concrete numbers.
Shadowclaw: Can you summarize your case on ICT? You guys are WoTing each other and I'm not entirely clear what your case is.
ICT: Same question as Shadowclaw. As far as I can tell, you're attacking claw for not being used to this format and making unwise decisions last night, neither of which are alignment indicative.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2019, 05:08:08 am
ICT: Same question as Shadowclaw. As far as I can tell, you're attacking claw for not being used to this format and making unwise decisions last night, neither of which are alignment indicative.My original vote was for their D1 conduct, but I kept the pressure on after they claimed their action, as that action struck me as something no competent town player would do. Turns out, I wasn't talking to a competent town player, and the suspicion is over "competent" rather than "town".
I have some issues with dolores' case on FoU, but I'd like to see him respond to it before I voice them.
Post by: notquitethere on December 26, 2019, 05:18:29 am
Persus13 -
Dolores
FallacyofUrist - Dolores [1]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999 - Persus13 [1]
Shadowclaw777 - Naturegirl1999 [1]
Icytea31 - Shadowclaw777, Deus Asmoth [2]
Hammer on 4. Day ends 10.40pm 26th December.
The number of mafia players is not public information. The game would auto-end if there is ever no way for town players to win.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2019, 05:30:10 am
Post by: notquitethere on December 26, 2019, 05:38:50 am
NQT: earlier, the end of the day was marked for the 26th. Which is the correct day?Day ends today in 12 hours time, I had just misremembered when I'd extended the day to.
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 26, 2019, 10:20:13 am
I find it odd that Deus Asimov seems to think that activity is not s reliable indicator of town.
Asimov appears to have not answered this second question, focusing on whether or not the question is personal rather than answering on how they will convince the asker thst they are townThis is a completely ridiculous claim. Yes, the town needs to do more work than the scum to win. That doesn't mean that a player who's invested enough to make a post after requesting a replacement is town.It would have literally no effect on my decision.That's a lie you tell to yourself. All of us are vulnerable to the sunk cost fallacy, and knowing that town has to put in more work to win, town is also less likely to throw all that work away than scum. That work is what I mean when I say someone is invested in the game.QuoteI mean, what's supposed to be provocative about it? It's a bad faith argument, sure. I already asked dolores about that. I personally wouldn't call it a personal attack, but if you would then I don't see much point in arguing about it.Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?How is this question and the arguments following from it not provocatively directed at your past performance and arguments?
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2019, 11:42:23 am
Naturegirl1999: if you believe FoU is suspicious, why aren't you voting for him this close to the day ending?
I have some issues with dolores' case on FoU, but I'd like to see him respond to it before I voice them.This was about a double standard I thought I saw when dolores spoke of the TricMagic lynch with FoU in one way and with DA in another. Now that I reread the posts, however, it looks like the two different approaches led to the same thesis. It's interesting, though, how she only used words such as 'unreadable' only when speaking to DA, when FoU's primary D1 case against me was that not reading my PM made me 'impossible to get a true read on'.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2019, 11:44:54 am
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on December 26, 2019, 12:02:21 pm
FallacyofUrist hasn't been active since two days ago. I don't think we'll get a response before day end. Still, better to lynch someone uncertain than someone known to me to be town (i.e. myself).Fair point
Naturegirl1999: if you believe FoU is suspicious, why aren't you voting for him this close to the day ending?
FallacyofUrist
Post by: Persus13 on December 26, 2019, 12:05:39 pm
I was going to vote Fallacy to break the tie until I could get a more coherent post together, but Naturegirl ninja'd me.
Post by: Persus13 on December 26, 2019, 01:17:29 pm
ICT
I'd like to hear you not try to encourage a bunch of WIFOM.Have you read your Role PM now?Yes. It changed nothing. I'd like to hear you speculate on why I performed no night action.
Deus Asmoth: Slight scum. Posts are few and not particularly content-filled. States that this is their personal playstyle, but it remains that it hasn't been very effective town play.You've played with Deus Asmoth before, right?
Why is the Sunken Cost Fallacy more applicable to town than scum. I don't have a scumread on dolores, but I could easily see someone invested in the game as a scum player coming back to post.It would have literally no effect on my decision.That's a lie you tell to yourself. All of us are vulnerable to the sunk cost fallacy, and knowing that town has to put in more work to win, town is also less likely to throw all that work away than scum. That work is what I mean when I say someone is invested in the game.
Persus13: Earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175212.msg8067874#msg8067874) you said that a town vig is a powerful tool in the right hands. Is Shadowclaw a bad town vig or scum trying to hide behind idiocy? Is there a valid reason a town vig would ever use a random-target kill, outside of something like being outnumbered by scum already? (This keeping in mind that in this game, random-target abilities can also hit the user.)I think if Shadowclaw was scum, he'd fakeclaim something more safe, like not taking a Night action in a game that doesn't seem to have investigative roles. Shadowclaw also doesn't have a random kill, he has a random prime, and while that's foolish to use in a game with two, possibly three primes, on its own its not to bad. The thing I find most suspicious is Shadowclaw claiming he was relying on Tric not being primeable, as that can't be true. Otherwise Shadow seems pretty town.
Shadowclaw:
This is clearly an anti-town move, and my rationale is probably that the ones voted that user off have the potential to have collaborated with you, I don’t know if their is a mafia sub-chat even more so it’s time to reveal my role.Most Mafia games I've been on this forum have had a quicktopic for the Mafia to chat in, as well as a quicktopic for dead players to chat in. Knowing NQT, this game will be no different.
Anyways we probably have 2 or 3 Scum players out of the 7 (I don’t think 4 Scum out of 9, seems exactly fair...) and this is the most critical moment in this game since once we reach the point that their are equal or more scum players, than they can tie-lock and kill each night. So if their is three scum players, if the lynch comes out to town, unless their is another vigilante to even the odds the scum practically win, unless their is 2 of them.I'm inclined to agree with you that we may have 2 or 3 scum here.
In addition, we actually know almost all, if not all of the roles in the game right now thanks to Superdorf. Besides your prime, there's an infect and another prime, possibly even a third prime, some or all of which could be town, although some or all could be fairly useless abilities. The main issue is we don't know the alignment of the person with the other Prime/Ignite, and that person now knows that there's two more people they can ignite tonight, which could be catastrophic for town as much as it could be for scum.
Deus Asmoth
As you say later, you're not dolores, so why are you putting words in her mouth? She never said that it was against the rules to post here after requesting a replacement. And in spite of your attempts to claim credit for baiting her into posting, most of that post wasn't directed at you at all. The fact that you're presenting it as such- and that dolores was more than willing to allow you to do so- is probably the scummiest thing in this game as of yet.This is literally denying reality. I remember reading dolores challenging NQT to ban them for posting while out, because that's super weird and not how Mafia games usually go. I think overall you have some good points in your dialogue with ICT, but this just feels too much like scum making up stuff and hoping it sticks for me to ignore.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2019, 02:56:25 pm
You've played with Deus Asmoth before, right?Thanks for reminding me to check his past games. I've played with DA in a bastard game, in a game in which I got daykilled D1, and a game in which I was scum. I think the first two are too odd to establish a pattern, but in that last game, he was town and scumhunted pretty well, though with a very concise style unlike the one he's using in this game. It was over a year ago, so noting the different playstyle isn't particularly useful. Hell, I've changed my playstyle for almost every game I've joined thus far.
Quote
Why is the Sunken Cost Fallacy more applicable to town than scum. I don't have a scumread on dolores, but I could easily see someone invested in the game as a scum player coming back to post.In leaving the game, a scum player loses a bunch of shameful lies. In leaving the game, a town player loses bunch of done detective work they're probably proud of. The sunk cost fallacy is more applicable to town than scum, simply because town have sunk more cost into the game, especially someone like dolores who prides herself in playing an active daygame as town.
Quote
I think if Shadowclaw was scum, he'd fakeclaim something more safe, like not taking a Night action in a game that doesn't seem to have investigative roles.Are you so sure about that? Shadowclaw seems to be proud of their "hail mary" that according to them is a pro-town move.
Do you have a full readlist you could drop? You mention some of your reads, but collating the most important of your thoughts to a single place would help me for later.
Post by: notquitethere on December 26, 2019, 03:52:28 pm
Post by: dolores on December 26, 2019, 04:40:32 pm
I'd prefer a Deus Asmoth lynch today over a FallacyofUrist one, but I could see them being buddies.I'm assuming they are. There's work that I could do (and should) to give myself a better perspective on DA that I haven't done yet, but FoU's posted like four lines since I made my case on D1 and none of them were redeeming.
I don't have a full grasp on how scummy (or not scummy) DA is because I haven't gone as indepth on his posts as FoU, in part because there are more of them.
I started writing basically a reads list below this so I'll format it as one:
Spoiler: Reads (click to show/hide)
Shadowclaw:There's a persistence to things like this that makes me think Shadowclaw isn't putting it on. It's something you could be easily coached to do (by DA), but I can't see an FoU-Shadowclaw scumteam having much coaching.This is clearly an anti-town move, and my rationale is probably that the ones voted that user off have the potential to have collaborated with you, I don’t know if their is a mafia sub-chat even more so it’s time to reveal my role.Most Mafia games I've been on this forum have had a quicktopic for the Mafia to chat in, as well as a quicktopic for dead players to chat in. Knowing NQT, this game will be no different.
In addition, we actually know almost all, if not all of the roles in the game right now thanks to Superdorf. Besides your prime, there's an infect and another prime, possibly even a third prime, some or all of which could be town, although some or all could be fairly useless abilities. The main issue is we don't know the alignment of the person with the other Prime/Ignite, and that person now knows that there's two more people they can ignite tonight, which could be catastrophic for town as much as it could be for scum.The infect has me really worried, if for no other reason than because nobody has claimed it. It's always possible that ICT was softclaiming it earlier, but that's a casket of wine I'm happy to let age till D3 if I ever have to open it.
Deus AsmothFor reference, that was directed at Meph. Back when I came back from doll I still had the cookie on my phone and reported my own post with an explanation (to get doll banned) but Toady never did anything and Meph supposedly didn't see it. Getting banned, technically or socially, has no impact on the posts I had already made up to that point, and it wasn't even that likely. I trust NQT a lot though, so I was pretty concerned about the modkill (which I would say was the 'right' thing to do, if maybe bad for subforum activity).
This is literally denying reality. I remember reading dolores challenging NQT to ban them for posting while out, because that's super weird and not how Mafia games usually go. I think overall you have some good points in your dialogue with ICT, but this just feels too much like scum making up stuff and hoping it sticks for me to ignore.
Anyway, the fact that you have to qualify that not all of what DA is posting is fabricated bullshit is key to why I'm lynching FoU first over DA.
Post by: notquitethere on December 27, 2019, 06:51:54 am
Urist only had one llama wool sock. "I just prefer odd socks!" he cried as they dragged him before the hammerer.
"You're missing a sock, the murderer is missing a sock, therefore you are the murderer," said the hammerer before caving Urist's head in.
Afterwards, they reflected on the syllogism and realised it didn't logically follow. From that day the mistake in the reasoning 'if X has a Y, and Z has a Y then X = Z' was to be known as the Fallacy of Urist.
D2 Votes
Persus13
Dolores
FallacyofUrist - Dolores, Naturegirl1999, Icytea31 [3]
Deus Asmoth - Persus13 [1]
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31 - Shadowclaw777, Deus Asmoth [2]
FallacyofUrist was lynched. FallacyofUrist was town.
Spoiler: FallacyofUrist (click to show/hide)
It's night. Please send your actions as soon as you can. If you don't want to act, please let me know. Night ends when all actions are in in, or in 24 hours: 28th December 11.50AM GMT
Post by: notquitethere on December 27, 2019, 05:38:12 pm
Vampire necromancer assassins and members of the secret 1331 Club, Persus13 and Icytea31 stalked down the corridors of the fortress cackling to themselves about their plans. Icy had managed to steal some pardons from a noble and had pardoned his ally (the other pardon was accidentally made out to the elf-loving Nature Girl, but no matter, they'd get her in time). As they were walking and talking, Persus was aggrieved to see a huge vent of magma shoot out of a grate and melt Icy completely.
At the far end of the fortress, Shadowclaw was enacting his master plan. He had set up a series of grates to magma tunnels to the lever before him and all he had to do was wait and pull it. Unfortunately, he had completely forgotten which sluice gate was attached to the lever and to make matters worse, unbeknownst to him, the Urist of the Fallacy had also linked up the lever to some vents above various bedrooms. So when it came time to pull, not only did he destroy Icytea31, but also Dolores and Deus Asmoth were destroyed in their beds by several tons of molten rock landing on them and their dearest possessions.
This was particularly unfortunate for poor Deus, as he was cuddling up to a fresh pardon for himself and was sleeping quite soundly. Dolores had just finished crafting a masterwork adamantine breastplate for Persus13 and was quite satisfied with helping who he mistakenly thought to be a loyal dwarf.
After this mayhem occurred, Persus flew into a mad tantrum and bashed Shadowclaw into the fine lever he was operating, leaving bits of the dwarf across the beautiful mechanisms. The only survivors at this stage were Persus and Naturegirl (who had rather slept through the whole debacle) and while they naturally tried to put the blame on one another, they had both letters of pardoning to save them.
And so Persus merely waited until Nature Girl collapsed out of exhaustion (as there was no way she was sleeping now she knew who the killer definitely was), not having to sleep himself being a vampire after all. After sinking his teeth into her neck he decided now would be a fine time to try Adventure Mode.
Shadowclaw777 was killed. Shadowclaw was town.
DeusAsmoth was ignited. DeusAsmoth was town.
Icytea31 was ignited. Icytea31 was mafia.
Dolores was ignited. Dolores was town.
Spoiler: Shadowclaw (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: DeusAsmoth (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Icytea31 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Dolores (click to show/hide)
D3
All players have been pardoned.
N3
Persus13 kills Naturegirl1999.
Naturegirl1999 was town.
Spoiler: Naturegirl1999 (click to show/hide)
Persus13 was Mafia. The Mafia win!
Spoiler: Persus13 (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on December 27, 2019, 05:46:43 pm
Here's the Spectator Chat / Deadchat. (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/7mGT5rpJGEgj)
Here's the mafia chat. (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/umU4m9kg4F3)
Spoiler: D1 Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: N1 actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: N2 actions (click to show/hide)
As you can see, town arsonist probably can't be considered a particularly pro-town role, so town were unlucky I included two of them, though the town doctor could have prevented some of the ignitions, and one town player (unfortunately lynched d1) was immune to arson.
Post by: Shadowclaw777 on December 27, 2019, 08:23:57 pm
Could I have played better?, isn’t that obvious I was just mainly lazy and had difficulty of making statement on the shit I wanted to say. My guess was on IceyTea and Dolores being scum buddies after this post since IceyTea was obviously going for the easy to lynch people so I was very suspicious, if you try to get people to lynch for the edge lord or rather the most awkward townies then how is town going to counteract that? I believed Persus could of Scum, that user was my third guess on who was mafia well no I’m flat out lying IceyTea kinda made me think Deus was being suspicious , and I get of let town by saying I was a a vigilante. Maybe another thing is that I have trust issues, and IceyTea seems like the back traitor type especially after previous forum games. I wonder if Bay12 Mafia ever experienced neutral roles like Jester or Executioner , or maybe something like a Ammesiac (One wants to be lynched, the other has to get someone lynched, the amnesiac gets to choose town or scum with their tole ability)
The only serious questions is probably directed at @Dolores, how you know that IceyTea was definitely town by your thinking?, I feel that user was just doing suspect things since the game started and when he started leading conversation, I knew someone was most likely up that why I tried to bring it up. (Fallacy if active could of helped me since I was a fellow town arsonist)
Post by: Superdorf on December 27, 2019, 08:34:58 pm
Now then. I'm muchly curious-- IcyTea-- did you really refrain from reading your role all through that day, or was that a lie to help placate us?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 27, 2019, 08:50:31 pm
Post by: Shakerag on December 27, 2019, 10:05:51 pm
Well played all!
Now then. I'm muchly curious-- IcyTea-- did you really refrain from reading your role all through that day, or was that a lie to help placate us?
It's a valid tactic. I think Toaster would do that regularly.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 28, 2019, 02:09:50 am
Now then. I'm muchly curious-- IcyTea-- did you really refrain from reading your role all through that day, or was that a lie to help placate us?I read it right before I voted for you for the first time.
Could I have played better?, isn’t that obvious I was just mainly lazy and had difficulty of making statement on the shit I wanted to say.It's all a matter of practice. The daygame is really about making clear and honest (or seemingly honest) statements. Look how other players break their arguments to small pieces by inserting quotes of the person they're responding to, and how different players type in different tones at different times. This is a game of communication, so ultimately the main advice I can give you is just that: communicate!
And don't worry, I'm not actually personally mad at you for carelessly using your ability. I was overplaying it for the sake of the game.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 28, 2019, 02:15:33 am
Post by: Persus13 on December 28, 2019, 11:54:26 am
Glad to see my urging ICT to do a Hail Mary worked out. Given NQT's choice of tie+ random lynch, I could have randomly lost D3 otherwise. Although we were basing it on mistaken information, it worked out for us.
ICT: This was the breadcrumb.
Its only been an hour since the game started and I keep getting preempted by new replies. Good to see activity right out of the gate, hopefully that keeps up.Bolding done by me just now. The first letter of part of my initial post spelled out an anagram of INFECT. If I had to claim the infect at some point I planned on bringing that up.
Shadowclaw: Nice to see a new face, but that probably means you're going to be getting a fair amount of attention right out of the gate. How do you think you'll handle that?
Deus Asmoth: Census or random inspect, which would you rather have?
Superdorf:Persus13: Who here would be least dangerous as a serial killer?There isn't really anyone here that I'd describe as being easy to out as an SK, and Shadowclaw I know very little about. Whereas I'm pretty low key in general and don't really like playing SKs, so I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly good at it. So probably me?
How do you feel about your confidence level now that you've gotten some more games under your belt? Did you feel nervous about dropping that census info? What are you looking forward to in this game?
Naturegirl:I’m thinking your role has something to do with cops, maybe it triggers when a cop has you as their target? Maybe you’re a cop? Maybe your role causes your target to be seen as a cop even if they might not be? Proc gen roles could be lots of things. I’m thinking on questions. Previous questions I asked in the last game seem to have been unhelpful. I want to make sure my questions aren’t uselessFYI, the code for the generator is freely available, so you can actually look at the code to determine what role combinations are possible. Of course, if you think someone is town, speculating on their role in thread might not be wise.
dolores:Persus13: theres a developing duologue between myself and ICT about the importance of intentionally disruptive play as scum. Do you think it's reasonable to interpret emotionally manipulative tactics as scummy? Does this only apply to certain players, or to everyone?Emotionally Manipulative tactics is a pretty vague term to me, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Mafia tactics are usually something I'm not super fond of theory crafting over, mainly because they do tend to vary from person to person though.
Post by: Persus13 on December 28, 2019, 12:11:26 pm
Could I have played better?, isn’t that obvious I was just mainly lazy and had difficulty of making statement on the shit I wanted to say.I thought you did okay for a first game. You igniting helped win the game for us, but that's more because there were two arsonists than if it was just you.
My guess was on IceyTea and Dolores being scum buddies after this post since IceyTea was obviously going for the easy to lynch people so I was very suspicious, if you try to get people to lynch for the edge lord or rather the most awkward townies then how is town going to counteract that?This was essentially going to be my case if I had to bus Tea.
I wonder if Bay12 Mafia ever experienced neutral roles like Jester or Executioner , or maybe something like a Ammesiac (One wants to be lynched, the other has to get someone lynched, the amnesiac gets to choose town or scum with their tole ability)We have third parties like those in other games. The main issue is that those usually need larger games to work well in.