Refunds on Pre-Purchased Titles
When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
QuoteRefunds on Pre-Purchased Titles
When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
This is the point I'm most pleased with. Say what you want about pre-purchasing stuff, this is great news.
And yes, the requirement of having played the title for less than two hours is indeed too strict. They're are simply not allowed to restrict refunds that way, and enforcing such a restriction will be just as illegal as refusing refunds altogether.
But once it released you were boned. IE Aliens: Colonial Marines' release. If a game is released terribly fucked up and/or with deceptive marketing and you supported it with a pre-purchase...QuoteRefunds on Pre-Purchased Titles
When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
This is the point I'm most pleased with. Say what you want about pre-purchasing stuff, this is great news.
.....you do realize you've ALWAYS been able to cancel prepurchases, right?
You'd only get steam wallet for it (iirc), but that's not a new thing.
QuoteRefunds on Pre-Purchased Titles
When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
This is the point I'm most pleased with. Say what you want about pre-purchasing stuff, this is great news.
.....you do realize you've ALWAYS been able to cancel prepurchases, right?
You'd only get steam wallet for it (iirc), but that's not a new thing.
And yes, the requirement of having played the title for less than two hours is indeed too strict. They're are simply not allowed to restrict refunds that way, and enforcing such a restriction will be just as illegal as refusing refunds altogether.
I don't think it's too strict at all. Two hours is plenty of time to decide if you like a game or not. It's not supposed to be a "boo I didn't like the game's ending I want a refund" or "I played 400 hours and now I'm bored" type deal, it's a "it didn't run on my computer" or "game is significantly different than what is described" type thing.
As for them not being allowed to do that, I'm sure valve has plenty of lawyers and I'm sure they talked to them first.
They say they will consider even if it isn't within the last 14 days.
And I have a few I have never been able to get working.
I think this depends on how concerned they are about initial backlash. The first thing everyone is going to think on hearing this is FINALLY NOW'S MY CHANCE! If that turns into page after page of people whining about how Steam's being mean and won't let them refund and this is terrible, it's likely to look bad for them.They say they will consider even if it isn't within the last 14 days.
And I have a few I have never been able to get working.
It's unlikely the new policy applies to anything prior to the policy change.
You will be issued a full refund of your purchase within a week of approval. You will receive the refund in Steam Wallet funds or through the same payment method you used to make the purchase. If, for any reason, Steam is unable to issue a refund via your initial payment method, your Steam Wallet will be credited the full amount.
I don't think it's too strict at all. Two hours is plenty of time to decide if you like a game or not. It's not supposed to be a "boo I didn't like the game's ending I want a refund" or "I played 400 hours and now I'm bored" type deal, it's a "it didn't run on my computer" or "game is significantly different than what is described" type thing.
VAC BansI don't much play with people (I'm an anti-social asshole, who likes to drop games unexpectedly for weeks at a time.) How permanent is this VAC thing, and if very, how accurate?
If you have been banned by VAC (the Valve Anti-Cheat system) on a game, you lose the right to refund that game.
We do not consider it abuse to request a refund on a title that was purchased just before a sale and then immediately rebuying that title for the sale price.It actually didn't occur to me, until they mentioned it. So thanks Steam.
Two hours is plenty of time to decide if you like a game or not.
Abuse
Refunds are designed to remove the risk from purchasing titles on Steam—not as a way to get free games. If it appears to us that you are abusing refunds, we may stop offering them to you. We do not consider it abuse to request a refund on a title that was purchased just before a sale and then immediately rebuying that title for the sale price.
Early access games will be hit sort of hard as well. How bad off would a lot of the early access games be if people simply bought, played, and uninstalled for them not being feature complete, or in some cases eternal Early Access?Early Access games are not meant to be feature complete. As for never getting finished there's the '14 days' clause. I'm not bitching, by the way- EA is meant to be a gamble. As a character in a long-forgotten game used to say: " If you pay the musician before he plays, you will get a song with too much rum in it or too much pain."
Or in other words, no big title will have any chance of going on sale while it is still moving copies. After all, if the additional sales were totally offset by the previous 2 weeks of sales dropping tremendously in value, there would really be no point in offering a sale.You're assuming (like an economist) people will do this. And they won't. (they might if it saves them $15, but unless they enjoy bargain hunting as a sport, not for cases where you save $0.99.)
Apparently, one of the devs of "Gone Home" is mad about this because Gone Home can be finished in less then 2 hours, so the game is essentially free now.
Apparently, one of the devs of "Gone Home" is mad about this because Gone Home can be finished in less then 2 hours, so the game is essentially free now.
Maybe they shouldn't try and charge $20 for a 2 hour game.
I'm actually somewhat serious about that. People who download it with the intention of refunding it so they can play for free could already pirate it, so I think we can ignore them - they were going to steal it anyway So that leaves people who download it, find out it's 2 hours long, and are disappointed.
If there's enough disappointed people getting refunds that it makes a big difference in your income... maybe you should consider that you didn't deserve the money you made in the first place.
Apparently, one of the devs of "Gone Home" is mad about this because Gone Home can be finished in less then 2 hours, so the game is essentially free now.
Maybe they shouldn't try and charge $20 for a 2 hour game.
I'm actually somewhat serious about that. People who download it with the intention of refunding it so they can play for free could already pirate it, so I think we can ignore them - they were going to steal it anyway So that leaves people who download it, find out it's 2 hours long, and are disappointed.
If there's enough disappointed people getting refunds that it makes a big difference in your income... maybe you should consider that you didn't deserve the money you made in the first place.
Yeah, the criticism against this policy is a little bit absurd.
On the one hand, fiascos like the new Sim City will make AAA publishers think twice before releasing a broken game, on the other hand it's going to make them even more conservative than before, so prepare for Call of Duty 28 down the road, as they feel they have to stick with what works rather than branching out into new or innovative concepts.
Early access games will be hit sort of hard as well. How bad off would a lot of the early access games be if people simply bought, played, and uninstalled for them not being feature complete, or in some cases eternal Early Access? In a similar vein to the above, I'm wondering if it's going to push some early access games to "release" early. I've never really agreed with the early access program as it currently exists, because you're basically paying to beta test someone else's game (rather than being paid to do it), and we get enough of that from AAA developers releasing buggy products from day one as is.
I wish to disown certain games I have on Steam.
I don't care if I don't get my any money back, if only you could gift games you no longer want to people.
Why not have the devs specify the minimum play time for their game, then display them in the store as part of the game info screen? Short, cheap games will likely have the same number of people buying them, even if the refund feature is turned off earlier, but without the risk of chronic refunding. Not only that, but dev studios will likely want to advertise a longer play time, avoiding a lot of the scam games that promise the moon and deliver a sub-par experience.
write a review if they want
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Personally, I hate hearing people attack short games. I'm a busy adult with too much to do and not enough time for games: I PREFER games which are 2 hours or less. And some of the most important, meaningful experiences I've had playing games have been with very short ones. As long as the price is low, I encourage developers to make short games. Cut out the grinding and the fluff and let me enjoy the meat of your experience in a couple hours or less, and I'll give you a couple dollars/euros in return.
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Quotewrite a review if they want
As someone who has written quite a bit of reviews.
DEAR GOODNESS is it dreadful if you don't share everyone's opinion. People rate "helpfulness" as to whether or not they find your review entertaining AND if it follows their opinion.
In fact the vast majority of "Did you find this review helpful?" you will find on a game are from people who already own the dang game and are just there to mark down reviews that are contrary to what they say.
and NOW if you mark down reviews enough, they won't even be shown. I have quite a few reviews that were marked down a lot simply because they weren't glowing recommendation or because "UGH! your review was long"
Yeah reviews are not going to fix the system. Even on GameFAQs they had the intelligence to realize "Hey, people who like a game might negatively view a negative review" but Steam seems to think people don't function that way. And pain be to someone who writes a positive review on a game that is HATED!
I totally get why they would want to put that limit there, but that's not how it works. The law's the law. Yeah, it means you get people 'buying' cameras, going on a vacation, then returning the camera.You don't buy a game on Steam IIRC, you buy a service. Also, it's trivial to prevent EU from meddling with the game you developed, just make it "alwalys online" and it is a service :) So, as a player I would prefer to not push the subject or we will end up with all games requiring internet connection or being F2P.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AndrewPellerano/20150604/245208/Steam_Refund__Friend_or_Foe.phpLogic invalid (kinda) because unless you live in butt-crack of Russia or Nigeria, you can reuqest a refund back to your credit card or paypal account. They mention this in the announcement, and they keep their word:
- we are back to the old "you need to impress your consumer during the first 2h", so another incentive for focusing on graphics, simple gameplay (why if they got confused and want a refund! let's make a game for idiots) in expense of lontermgameplay (who cares if my game has good replayability, all that count is the first 2h)
No... no... It won't happen that way because games do not work off of loyalty.
Give that option and none of them will allow refunds. Why would they want to? It means less sales off their game because someone didn't want it.
I feel like the more pressing issue is in regard to shorter games becoming at-risk. While it isn't exactly easy, Metroid Fusion, for example, can be completed in less than two hours...But only with proper knowledge and experience, I'd imagine. A brand new player going through the game for their first time is going to be way slower. There aren't going to be many games that casually take less than two hours.
Well it's a bit complicated, but how about the developers get to apply for "extremely short" status, denying refunds, but requiring under 4 hour completion times, and story-driven content (visual novels are a prime example.) ideally this is resolved during greenlight phase but users may later request a change of status. Developers who abuse the feature are penalised by steam. users who request status change on everything get points into their "refund abuse" score.
Possible downside;
Playing 7days to die with friends on a server - friend B buys it to check it out, spawns, dies, spawns, dies, refunds. Understandable, but at the same time I know he would enjoy the game if he got anything except spawning at night and dieing to very fast zombies, since he enjoys minecraftersurivalsims...
I think that short games that can be "completed" under 2 hours would simply get an exception. It's only logical that a game with a short completion time and no replayability value could be made non-refundable, on a case-by-case basis, while being clearly marked as such. Naturally, a game like that marked "NON-REFUNDABLE" better have a demo of some sort, otherwise such a label would drop its sales to insignificant.
At the same time. A game with under two hours of gameplay and no replayability value? Steam is still a PC game distribution platform, isn't it? If the refund policy causes games of that type to disappear from Steam, I don't think many potential buyers would be terribly aggrieved. I sure wouldn't be.
(I honestly can't think of any games that fit that description off the top of my head. Some Call of Duty(-like) games can probably be completed under two hours, especially if you skip cutscenes, but they at least tend to have multiplayer. Are there even any games like that?)
has anybody else actually gotten a refund yet? I placed a request, but never got any reply as to whether it went through.I submitted a refund request for Mechs & Mercs: Black Talons and it took 3 days to process and get accepted. I'm still waiting on the funds, but they should be in my Steam wallet "shortly". Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the whole thing; I bought the game 5 months ago, so I wasn't expecting much to begin with.
i submitted mine on Tuesday and haven't gotten any word on ithas anybody else actually gotten a refund yet? I placed a request, but never got any reply as to whether it went through.I submitted a refund request for Mechs & Mercs: Black Talons and it took 3 days to process and get accepted. I'm still waiting on the funds, but they should be in my Steam wallet "shortly". Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the whole thing; I bought the game 5 months ago, so I wasn't expecting much to begin with.
has anybody else actually gotten a refund yet? I placed a request, but never got any reply as to whether it went through.
Hrmm... how does steam track playtime when you play in offline mode anyway? Couldn't someone just offline mode and delete shit before going back online and claim refund?Offline mode still tracks usage, so long as you launch it through Steam. The only way around it is to launch the game directly from its install folder, bypassing Steam entirely, and not all games allow that sort of thing. It'll certainly be a moot point for the Steambox, which I'm suspecting this whole thing is really about.
Hrmm... how does steam track playtime when you play in offline mode anyway? Couldn't someone just offline mode and delete shit before going back online and claim refund?In theory, there's almost certainly a way for users to do that, yeah. But if you're going around and hex editing files, you might as well pirate the game in the first place. Legally speaking, it's just as dubious. If you want to download, play, and enjoy games without giving the developers anything, you can already do that, and Steam's refund policy isn't making it easier. There's a chance your refund request will be denied, or if you do it too much, your ability to get any refund (even legitimate ones!) will be locked out. Even if your refund is accepted, it still takes almost a week to get your funds, and they only go into your Steam wallet anyway.
The only way around it is to launch the game directly from its install folder, bypassing Steam entirely, and not all games allow that sort of thing.
I got really mixed feelings. It is a similar policy to what Google play has been doing for ages, and that's a platform with the most F2P apps.
As a dev I am not confortable about how easy it will be to turn that into a free rental instead, do you really need 2 hours to figure if your game will not work on your machine? I hope Valve will investigate abuses are, better, make it 1 hour so short games can exist, as long as their price is right of course.
We will have to wait a couple of months to figure if it helps or hurt. Right now people are testing it so numbers are biased.
(I'll be hanging onto my copy of To The Moon for definite!).So will I, but to the moon is quite a bit longer than 2 hours. I spent "all evening" on it (well into the night, in fact.) Some random sight (http://www.gamelengths.com/games/playtimes/To+The+Moon/) I googled says it can't be finished in less than 3 (also, I'm a slowpoke)
For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:Success! I used hearsay and anecdotal evidence to support my claim that SR are not harmful, and now a famous person agrees with me, so I was right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA)
It's far better hearsay and anecdotal evidence than the hearsay and anecdotal evidence used by the people arguing against refunds.For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:Success! I used hearsay and anecdotal evidence to support my claim that SR are not harmful, and now a famous person agrees with me, so I was right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA)
Also seriously it's fucking refunds guys you're really supposed to be able to get a refund. Wouldn't it have been better if this policy was in place for Air Control and Aliens: Colonial Marines?Any time I spend hours on hours working around someone's flawed software, I ponder whether they should be paying me my hourly wage to do work to be able to have a damaged experience playing their game. Then I remember that it is impossible to make perfect bug free games simply because it would cost too much, and cut them some slack.
For those worrying about what this means for devs of indie games, here's TotalBiscuit's take on it:Success! I used hearsay and anecdotal evidence to support my claim that SR are not harmful, and now a famous person agrees with me, so I was right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA)
Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708
Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708
Whole games as demo's. Gosh. How terrible that would be. Considering a $10 breakfast is fairly normal to this person, they've obviously not been in a situation shared by tens of millions of people. $10 for a game can be a lot of money for some people. "But BigD, they own a computer which costs hundreds of dollars." No. Some use library computers or friends' computers or get hand-me-downs or dumpster dive. Some people live on $5 or less a day for food. $10 is a lot of money. It's skipping breakfast ten days straight. "Maybe they shouldn't buy vidya gaems." Yes, no recreation for poor people. Wouldn't want them having fun or anything.
Hey, people pay a lot by hour to go to the cinema. If someone wants to charge 15$ for 2hours of game, and gets people to pay for that, good for them.This is one of the reasons I almost never go to the cinema, nor will I buy shitty 2 hour walking simulators.
So, the summer sale should be an interesting case for the 'refund for a lower price' bit. What happens if you don't get the refund before the price returns to non-sales level, among other things.
So, the summer sale should be an interesting case for the 'refund for a lower price' bit. What happens if you don't get the refund before the price returns to non-sales level, among other things.
Could Rockstar found a way to go around that "annoying refund shenanigans"? what they did is that during the steam sale, you don't buy a game, you buy a pack of the game plus a consumable microtransaction card which is supposed to be pretty useless but more importantly, can not be refunded. not to mention they managed to have a 25% discount tag while applying a discount closer to 11% on the deal. (Technically legit, because you are not just buying the game which is still priced 59.99 when bought on its own, but you also buy the card which give you in-game money). Obviously they know no one will buy the standalone product when its priced higher, and it still remains to be seen what they will do when the steam sale ends.
Could Rockstar found a way to go around that "annoying refund shenanigans"? what they did is that during the steam sale, you don't buy a game, you buy a pack of the game plus a consumable microtransaction card which is supposed to be pretty useless but more importantly, can not be refunded. not to mention they managed to have a 25% discount tag while applying a discount closer to 11% on the deal. (Technically legit, because you are not just buying the game which is still priced 59.99 when bought on its own, but you also buy the card which give you in-game money). Obviously they know no one will buy the standalone product when its priced higher, and it still remains to be seen what they will do when the steam sale ends.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.What we have, is theoretical fact.
Edit: also you can apparently spend $100 cash money dollars and get 8 million ingame dollars, what the actual fuck? Who would ever do that?
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.
It'd be a new trend then. New releases around sale time have so far boldly not dropped prices. It's usually been a sign to me that someone is in trouble financially. More than likely it'd be a combination of both things: a way to discount a newly released game during the sale without outright dropping the price.....and a way to make refunds impossible.
"DLC purchased from the Steam store is refundable within fourteen days of purchase, and if the underlying title has been played for less than two hours since the DLC was purchased, so long as the DLC has not been consumed, modified or transferred. Please note that in some cases, Steam will be unable to give refunds for some third party DLC (for example, if the DLC irreversibly levels up a game character). These exceptions will be clearly marked as nonrefundable on the Store page prior to purchase."
Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708
I don't know if he's right or wrong, if he's got a good point or if he's just whining.
All I know is he is a condescending douche and I want him to fail because... seriously wtf. He's somehow arguing that he wants to sell less copies of his game because fans suck and he wants less of them? But he also somehow feels entitled to charging way more for his games because they are just that good despite the fact that around 50% of people like them so much they want refunds?If I actually owned any puppygames games I'd try and get a refund out of spite.I wouldn't really, I'm not that petty of a person
I do agree that a large portion of modern gamers are absolute shit and wouldn't know a quality game if it sat on their face.Who are you to judge? People like different games. Just because you don't like the same games doesn't mean they're automatically horrible and disgusting for not agreeing with you. Let people enjoy their games while you enjoy yours. Why do you care what they like to play?
I was denied one refund where I had 120 hours in a game.
But this was because the game would crash to desktop but leave the process running invisibly, so Steam thought it was still running and hours counted up until I rebooted my computer or something. Realistically I probably played the game for 10 minutes or so.
Okay, sorry for being off-topic, but wow:I do agree that a large portion of modern gamers are absolute shit and wouldn't know a quality game if it sat on their face.Who are you to judge? People like different games. Just because you don't like the same games doesn't mean they're automatically horrible and disgusting for not agreeing with you. Let people enjoy their games while you enjoy yours. Why do you care what they like to play?
Seriously. Why so negative?
Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinionI'm really curious where he got these statistics:
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708
And it was all based on this one thing: a sale is a sale, and that’s it. But that’s no longer the case. A sale is only a guaranteed sale after it’s been played for 2 hours. That’s a bit awkward because the median time game play for most titles on Steam is only about an hour, which does rather beg the question why they chose a 2 hour window, but that’s part of the meta-problem Valve has, which I’ll get to.
Who are you to judge?
People like different games.
Just because you don't like the same games doesn't mean they're automatically horrible and disgusting for not agreeing with you.
Let people enjoy their games while you enjoy yours. Why do you care what they like to play?
Seriously. Why so negative?
I'm laughing reading Kruniac's post because its pretty much verbatim what my own thoughts on the matter are, I'm just too lazy to argue with fools.
Didn't you hear? He is the industry!All refunds are stupid, of course. That whole thing of, "you're not really earning money or being rewarded financially, you're just receiving previous payments" is patronising and simplistic but every now and again you come across a system that has so little fiscal gain to you that you end up standing there, gazing at the mirror and saying "I'm just working retail and my life has no meaning," to a cold dead robot.
Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinionI'm really curious where he got these statistics:
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708QuoteAnd it was all based on this one thing: a sale is a sale, and that’s it. But that’s no longer the case. A sale is only a guaranteed sale after it’s been played for 2 hours. That’s a bit awkward because the median time game play for most titles on Steam is only about an hour, which does rather beg the question why they chose a 2 hour window, but that’s part of the meta-problem Valve has, which I’ll get to.
I'm laughing reading Kruniac's post because its pretty much verbatim what my own thoughts on the matter are, I'm just too lazy to argue with fools.
Didn't you hear? He is the industry!
All refunds are stupid, of course.
My thing is this: Shit gamers will refund otherwise quality games because it didn't have their shiny/achievements/customizablepenises. They should be stood against a wall and shot.I don't think your business model should rely on taking money from people who aren't satisfied with your product. That's just shitty business. I think people who have "poor taste" should be just as allowed to return a game because they don't like it as anyone who bought a game they don't like, including people who bought all-around shitty games, or who bought Arma and were put off by how hardcore it actually was. Even people who didn't get out of the tutorial in Dark Souls. One of the motives of the refund is people who weren't sure about a game will try it- if 200 people who would never have touched Euro Truck Simulator buy it knowing that can get a refund, and 199 of those people return it, hey! You've made more money!
So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?Only if Kruniac agrees with them.
So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?Only if Kruniac agrees with them.
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See, for all thsi "games are shit now", I wonder what they'd think if you applied it to other media.
All books before 1889 are shit now! Modern readers are idiots who deserve to be shot, and new books are soulless cash grabs with no quality.
You'd shake your head at them.
So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?
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I'm really curious where he got these statistics:
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https://medium.com/@galyonkin/how-many-games-are-eligible-for-steam-refunds-7a4f3ea74c19
QuoteWho are you to judge?
A 31 year old gamer who has been around since beating Dragon Warrior II was considered a cool thing to do. I am the industry. Every game evolving over time into the (some good, some) shit that it is. The countless "reboots", the fucking tragedy of "spiritual successors". I have watched things go from bad to worse. I've seen new ideas come and go, some of them worked, others didn't. I've watched AAA and indie alike fuck up time after time. I've heard promises turned into outright lies, watched hype which was nothing more than propaganda for a shit release, and gradually observed the industry practice "Dump>Patch>DLC" instead of releasing quality from the jump.
Yeah. I'm qualified to judge. I'm the guy with a stack of CDs about two feet high. Magic Carpet to Gothic. I was playing Ultima Online before stat loss. I was in the delivery room when Steam was born. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm qualified to judge games, period.
People that buy things cheaply, or get them "free" because of how they perceive the costs of a bundle, just aren't invested in giving the game an honest chance. They are not likely to be talking about the game. They are not likely to give other titles in the developer's stable a look, because there is no connection with the work. They _are_ likely to be a CS nightmare, like the rant says. From a purely economic standpoint, they are highly likely to be a net-loss customer; this is the angle from which he says "worthless customer" in the rant. If he's a bit angry at those people because they want him to pull the moon from the sky for a quid or less in his pocket? I think that's reasonable, all in all.
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Maybe they should consider that before they put it in a bundle or sell it for very cheap?
I'm sure the counter-argument will be that they are forced to do so to sell copies, but that's stupid. Either make games people want to pay money for, or create games that you want to create but accept you won't make a living off it.
If you are so bad at business you are making 0 or negative money off the copies you sell, it's your fault, not the customers and blaming them is empty-headed.
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Maybe they should consider that before they put it in a bundle or sell it for very cheap?
I'm sure the counter-argument will be that they are forced to do so to sell copies, but that's stupid. Either make games people want to pay money for, or create games that you want to create but accept you won't make a living off it.
If you are so bad at business you are making 0 or negative money off the copies you sell, it's your fault, not the customers and blaming them is empty-headed.
Many of them probably did consider the issues before giving the go-ahead on bundles or sales... but there's been a terrible supply-side problem for years now. The number of games being made are absurd, everyone knows it, and nobody wants to stop making games unless atriple A devhousesoftware sweatshop crushes the dream out of them, or they are literally starving to death. As with books, so too it is with games: obscurity is a far greater threat... and desperate people do desperate things.
I'm sure the bundle folks didn't help by talking up the "excellent visibility" being in a bundle is supposed to give. They are invested in having interesting bundles; you'd have a hard time getting them to care about the technical or CS debt that the bundle creates for the developers. If the bundle folks talked about that in their pitch, just about everyone would NOPE-NOPE-NOPE right out of that meeting.
Are some/many indies bad at business? Absolutely, and not just because of broad reasons of varying business acumen amongst a large population. Many of them want to Make Their Dream Game, or Be Their Own Boss, without knowing what that really means. It doesn't mean they are bad people acting in bad faith; they're just in over their heads, like many of us in varied other ways.
It's easy to watch from afar and commentate from an armchair... it's a lot messier when you're in the middle of it.
That's just not how it works. Own your mistakes, learn from them, and move on instead of trying to shift blame on to anyone and anything else.
QuoteThat's just not how it works. Own your mistakes, learn from them, and move on instead of trying to shift blame on to anyone and anything else.
In other words, success needs no excuses. I feel for developers who didn't achieve the success they wanted (I've seen at least one dev IRL suffer this) but getting desperate and screwing yourself isn't going to make up for the fact the game wasn't popular. And trying to blame someone isn't going to suddenly improve your sales.
Fallout shelter is funding Fallout 4 for example, and who knows if Fallout 4 will be profitable.I would imagine that Fallout Shelter's profit is largely measured in Fallout 4 preorders.
Because those people, instead of telling a hundred other people on the internet that it's terrible, can simply recieve a refund, vent their proper opinion and not spend days at a time on the steam forum trash talking the game until someone offers a refund.LOL, a good point. I think the average of positive ratings overall will raise (I mean, if I refunded a terrible game why should I write a negative review?)
Because those people, instead of telling a hundred other people on the internet that it's terrible, can simply recieve a refund, vent their proper opinion and not spend days at a time on the steam forum trash talking the game until someone offers a refund.LOL, a good point. I think the average of positive ratings overall will raise (I mean, if I refunded a terrible game why should I write a negative review?)
BTW, does anyone know about the trading cards and the like? Will these stay if you refund (I see the biggest possiblity for abuse here)?
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BTW, does anyone know about the trading cards and the like? Will these stay if you refund (I see the biggest possiblity for abuse here)?
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From what I can tell, they seem to have changed card drops so they don't start until after 2 hours of play. Makes farming a lot more tedious, but I understand why they needed to change that.
Steam cards are worth actual cash monies to someone out there?
Because those people, instead of telling a hundred other people on the internet that it's terrible, can simply recieve a refund, vent their proper opinion and not spend days at a time on the steam forum trash talking the game until someone offers a refund.LOL, a good point. I think the average of positive ratings overall will raise (I mean, if I refunded a terrible game why should I write a negative review?)
BTW, does anyone know about the trading cards and the like? Will these stay if you refund (I see the biggest possiblity for abuse here)?
Steam cards are worth actual cash monies to someone out there?
They were worth actual monies from day 1 (though not much individually)So, you're saying they can be sold as sets for more money? Intriguing. Smells of a market bubble, but intriguing nonetheless.
Not really no.They were worth actual monies from day 1 (though not much individually)So, you're saying they can be sold as sets for more money? Intriguing. Smells of a market bubble, but intriguing nonetheless.
You... hated Half Life 2, and think Half Life 1 was better? Well, that was unexpected.
(Although if you had bought the orange box, you'd have gotten TF2 and portal free, and that was a pretty good deal... at the time... Until they gave portal away for free repeatedly, and turned TF2 free)
HL2 gives you essentially no choice - the plot railroads you, the conversations railroad you, all the people talking to you are immortal and don't even notice if you shoot them, etc, it just feels artificial and fake.It's an FPS, dude, not a CYOA. How much meaningful choice did DOOM have, or COD?
HL2 gives you essentially no choice - the plot railroads you, the conversations railroad you, all the people talking to you are immortal and don't even notice if you shoot them, etc, it just feels artificial and fake.It's an FPS, dude, not a CYOA. How much meaningful choice did DOOM have, or COD?
(SO:tL was the "exception" that proves the rule- it was still over 99% rails)
You're right, the plot to DOOM is literally "John, you must fight the demons!". However most "modern" FPSs do offer plot (and no choice) - they're supposed to be action movies with (IRL) skill checks in the middle.It's an FPS, dude, not a CYOA. How much meaningful choice did DOOM have, or COD?Yes, but DOOM never pretended to be meaningful and artistic.
(SO:tL was the "exception" that proves the rule- it was still over 99% rails)
Considering the original doom was also made as a bet along the lines of 'bet we can't make a game using this engine!' So..... yeah.You're right, the plot to DOOM is literally "John, you must fight the demons!". However most "modern" FPSs do offer plot (and no choice) - they're supposed to be action movies with (IRL) skill checks in the middle.It's an FPS, dude, not a CYOA. How much meaningful choice did DOOM have, or COD?Yes, but DOOM never pretended to be meaningful and artistic.
(SO:tL was the "exception" that proves the rule- it was still over 99% rails)
What's SO:tL?Spec Ops: the Line. Aka story shooter the game.
The main character's personality or lack thereof also comes into play when they're not only the main thing that has carried over from the first game to the sequel but also apparently some kind of messianic figure; that whole part of the Half-Life 2 plotline kind of reminds me of the Adventure Time episode where the goblins made an inanimate statue their king, it's also sort of reminiscent of The Life of Brian, but it doesn't work when played straight though, it only works in a comedy.