Post by: BradB on January 11, 2010, 10:56:44 am
What I am asking is how come for the entire time I've been playing DF (after the learning stage) these thoughts have never crossed my mind? Is it mainly the newer players wanting to use the mouse, or is it the fully "I know every hotkey" people like me? :-\
What are the mouse features that you all seem to kick and scream for? I can only think of three ways that the mouse could be used:
- Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
- Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
- Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.
Is this what it is that you all want ??? feel free to add some more points.
(Keyboard4lyf!)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Arrkhal on January 11, 2010, 10:58:18 am
Post by: Savok on January 11, 2010, 11:42:28 am
Post by: slink on January 11, 2010, 12:08:49 pm
Post by: SirPenguin on January 11, 2010, 12:19:34 pm
Quote
I guess we do have control of the mouse cursor display right now ... We have a few extra controls now ... Clicking and dragging, it's not like I'm not for having the mouse be supported and having all kinds of nice things you can do with the mouse - I like nice things - and I know people like their keyboard shortcuts too, and I like keyboard shortcuts but you can click on all the new screens, you can't drag anything but you can click all the new screens, it just doesn't say that anywhere, but you can do it; every new button can be clicked
It's kind of an ambiguous statement, but it SOUNDS like we have more mouse control...I'm not sure what "new screen" or "new button" even is suppose to mean in this case. It could either be literally new screens he's introduced (like, the new squad screen?) or that he did the old screens in the new version so we can click things, or maybe something else entirely
Post by: Deon on January 11, 2010, 12:26:07 pm
Post by: smjjames on January 11, 2010, 12:41:58 pm
Post by: Lawec on January 11, 2010, 12:42:49 pm
Post by: Sutremaine on January 11, 2010, 01:25:45 pm
Post by: KenboCalrissian on January 11, 2010, 02:18:52 pm
What are the mouse features that you all seem to kick and scream for? I can only think of three ways that the mouse could be used:
- Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
- Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
- Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.
Is this what it is that you all want ??? feel free to add some more points.
You say this like these aren't very big points at all, but in fact they are incredibly important! You underestimate the convenience of clicking on things that you want!
Personally, I only use the keyboard because it's a necessity. There isn't enough mouse support to use it well enough, and I do get frustrated pushing so many keys to get to the nested/nested/nested menu I want and scrolling only in increments of single options or whole pages. I feel screwed every time the option I want is in the middle of the list, because that's a lot of key presses to get to it.
One of the hardest things for me to learn when I first started was that arrow keys do not scroll through most game menus. I never would have figured out that I need + and - without using the wiki, and then in 40d16 that changed again (I can't understand why that support was removed from the numpad)!
If you really don't think mouse support is important, try unplugging your mouse and using your OS. It's completely possible, but annoying and clunky, and the learning curve on keyboard controls is steeper than the learning curve of a mouse.
Post by: Shaostoul on January 11, 2010, 02:31:29 pm
Other than that I can't really think of too much else I'd like to see for the mouse, maybe full support of the UI and mouse together?
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 11, 2010, 02:48:41 pm
Quote from: Notme
First of all, I use the mouse for as much as possible, whenever possible. My left wrist is basically crippled, so extensive typing is kind of torturous for me.
It also makes the game easier to work with. Presently, the mouse works on...the nobles screen, stockpile settings screen, designations (and the sidemenus for them!), the worldpainter (oddly, no kbd support in that), and the relationships screen.
And I know I made a concise statement of non-thinky mouse additions...which resulted in flames for no apparent reason.
Post by: dragon0421 on January 11, 2010, 02:53:30 pm
Post by: KaelGotDwarves on January 11, 2010, 03:02:32 pm
You know what irritates me because it makes my eyes hemmorage blood? Setting a room or designation where the tiles intermittantly flash neon blue. Like dining rooms, bedrooms, studies.
It makes me feel like I'm having a seizure and I generally quit playing DF if I've been at it awhile after seeing it.
Post by: smjjames on January 11, 2010, 03:20:53 pm
This is semi-offtopic but you guys just reminded me.
You know what irritates me because it makes my eyes hemmorage blood? Setting a room or designation where the tiles intermittantly flash neon blue. Like dining rooms, bedrooms, studies.
It makes me feel like I'm having a seizure and I generally quit playing DF if I've been at it awhile after seeing it.
Pfft, those aren't so bad compared to the flashing of the construction icon. Its especially annoying when there is a large area (floor for example) and it can fill your screen with flashing.
Post by: zwei on January 11, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Post by: Shaostoul on January 11, 2010, 03:28:39 pm
Post by: Footkerchief on January 11, 2010, 04:17:56 pm
I'm not sure what "new screen" or "new button" even is suppose to mean in this case. It could either be literally new screens he's introduced (like, the new squad screen?)
I'm pretty sure it's those, yeah.
Post by: Deon on January 12, 2010, 03:53:54 pm
Quote
I use keyboard and mouse together in harmony. I also hug trees and eat dead bodies.: 29%
OMG! So many elves among dwarves! Armok save us!
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 12, 2010, 04:11:20 pm
Post by: eerr on January 12, 2010, 04:23:41 pm
They should still list the hotkey, after the name of course.
We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.
Post by: Arrkhal on January 12, 2010, 04:34:05 pm
Quote
You know what irritates me because it makes my eyes hemmorage blood? Setting a room or designation where the tiles intermittantly flash neon blue. Like dining rooms, bedrooms, studies.
Try pressing shift-D. I never bother to try and make caravans come in from only one place, because that flashing red and green makes me nauseous after about 5 seconds.
Post by: SkyRender on January 12, 2010, 06:45:45 pm
Post by: Foxbyte on January 12, 2010, 06:59:35 pm
The interface is god-awful, why can't I just use the mouse?
Plus, I'm sure I've gotten a RSI from planting down cabinets, chests, and beds in 200 quarters, then defining all those bedrooms. And a dining room for each family as well.
Post by: bluephoenix on January 12, 2010, 07:39:33 pm
Post by: Untelligent on January 12, 2010, 09:00:05 pm
Post by: sonerohi on January 12, 2010, 10:14:35 pm
Post by: Retro on January 13, 2010, 12:01:26 am
That being said, I can understand why adding mouse support is highly desired by some. But replacing the keyboard with mouse actions I am heavily against. I use the keyboard system way faster and more comfortably than I ever could with the mouse.
Post by: Muz on January 13, 2010, 12:59:18 am
But then, using the keyboard for hotkeys is the optimal way. Unless you have a hard time finding which keys are where on your keyboard, it shouldn't be a problem.
Post by: Footkerchief on January 13, 2010, 01:08:41 am
But replacing the keyboard with mouse actions I am heavily against. I use the keyboard system way faster and more comfortably than I ever could with the mouse.
Well then you have nothing to worry about, because I've never seen anyone advocate that.
Post by: Dakk on January 13, 2010, 01:19:31 am
Post by: Retro on January 13, 2010, 02:05:52 am
But replacing the keyboard with mouse actions I am heavily against. I use the keyboard system way faster and more comfortably than I ever could with the mouse.Well then you have nothing to worry about, because I've never seen anyone advocate that.
90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.
-
Though, to be fair, he probably didn't mean replaced so much as adding mouse compatibility... but I haven't read much 'keyboard vs. mouse' stuff in general, so in case there were others who've argued for the keyboard setup to be replaced, I thought I'd cover my bases.
Post by: Footkerchief on January 13, 2010, 02:36:58 am
Post by: Sukasa on January 13, 2010, 11:45:36 am
Post by: dyze on January 13, 2010, 12:19:17 pm
Guys. I am terribly confused. Everywhere I look, I see: "I want better mouse support" and "The interface sucks", rarely actually saying specifically what is that they want.
What I am asking is how come for the entire time I've been playing DF (after the learning stage) these thoughts have never crossed my mind? Is it mainly the newer players wanting to use the mouse, or is it the fully "I know every hotkey" people like me? :-\
What are the mouse features that you all seem to kick and scream for? I can only think of three ways that the mouse could be used:
- Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
- Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
- Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.
Is this what it is that you all want ??? feel free to add some more points.
..
what i fail to understand is how you can be so ??? about this topic ..have you never played civilization? or sim city? the settlers?
how annoying wouldnt any of those games be with keyboard only support..
i cant even see how this is a topic, how can you not see the benefits of using a mouse (eg right click for context sensitive menus)?
Post by: Savok on January 13, 2010, 01:19:53 pm
90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.
They should still list the hotkey, after the name of course.
We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.
I must be one of those keyboard savants mentioned by eerr. I've yet to find a time when I needed to check the DF window to find a hotkey, but all too often I stare at my keyboard for 10+ minutes thinking "where the f- did my key go?". I need to get better at this whole knowing my keyboard nonsense.
At last, I've found my pair - the only other user of Dwarf Fortress who uses the keyboard all the time with ease!
Well, to be fair, I do look at the hotkey list for obscure buildings that I rarely build. But that's it.
More seriously, there actually are a lot of us. Back in the elden days, when the world was flat and flooded in fire, and it was a sport to slay boats in cold blood, we arcane masters of the "KeyBoard" roamed the fora and did dominate. Then, the world changed and was made anew, and mortals flooded the lands, sometimes learning from the masters and becoming like us, but more often begging for their god to give aid and support to Mus Computorus, a crutch that aided those who would or could not learn the ways of the ancients.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 13, 2010, 01:41:58 pm
I don't need the mouse, but it makes designating stairway shafts much quicker, among other things. (Hold mouse1, >, rather than {enter enter >}*N)
Post by: Julius Clonkus on January 13, 2010, 04:29:18 pm
I'm not hugging the trees. I'm practicing to crush 'em with my arms. I won't actually do that until I hit legendary, though. Then I can make ☼Wooden Toothpick☼s at a low price. And I like my kitten roasts which SHOULD be considered a cut-apart dead body. On the other hand, everything reproduces with spores, so they're actually mushrooms...?QuoteI use keyboard and mouse together in harmony. I also hug trees and eat dead bodies.: 29%
OMG! So many elves among dwarves! Armok save us!
Post by: Jiri Petru on January 13, 2010, 04:50:11 pm
Even if you suddenly make everything in Dwarf Fortress controllable by mouse, the interface would still be useless and I suppose hardly anyone would use the mouse. To be able to use mouse, the whole interface needs to be redone from scratch... this time thinking about buttons, menus, arrangement, "ergonomy" etc. Mouse interface is first and above all visual interface - you need to be able to visually differentiate between items, you have to see them and remember their place on the screen, they have to be arranged in logical places.
The current menu is unusable to anyone - people just remember keyboard shortcuts and then turn the menu off. I can't even imagine I'd click on the items in the menu. It's actually easier to remember them all than trying to use them visually. The usefulness of the in-game menu can be compared to a list of hotkeys you print out and lie down next to your computer.
---
What this means: yeah, I'd love proper interface with mouse support. But mouse support by itself won't really make a difference. That's the reason why everyone responds "mouse wouldn't be faster" in the poll.
Post by: sonerohi on January 13, 2010, 07:15:23 pm
90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.
They should still list the hotkey, after the name of course.
We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.I must be one of those keyboard savants mentioned by eerr. I've yet to find a time when I needed to check the DF window to find a hotkey, but all too often I stare at my keyboard for 10+ minutes thinking "where the f- did my key go?". I need to get better at this whole knowing my keyboard nonsense.
At last, I've found my pair - the only other user of Dwarf Fortress who uses the keyboard all the time with ease!
Well, to be fair, I do look at the hotkey list for obscure buildings that I rarely build. But that's it.
More seriously, there actually are a lot of us. Back in the elden days, when the world was flat and flooded in fire, and it was a sport to slayboatsbeasts in cold blood, we arcane masters of the "KeyBoard" roamed the fora and did dominate. Then, the world changed and was made anew, and mortals flooded the lands, sometimes learning from the masters and becoming like us, but more often begging for their god to give aid and support to Mus Computorus, a crutch that aided those who would or could not learn the ways of the ancients.
I like the wisdom in this mans words. Slay all boats!
Post by: Roxorius on January 14, 2010, 06:19:30 am
Ask normal people, and they'll whimper at the thought of accomplishing anything with the current interface and lack of mouse support.
DF is synonymous with poor controls in many gaming circles.
Post by: jokermatt999 on January 14, 2010, 08:25:48 am
Ask the people here, and they'll tell you that DF has the perfect interface and the keyboard is awesome. They wouldn't be here, otherwise.
Ask normal people, and they'll whimper at the thought of accomplishing anything with the current interface and lack of mouse support.
DF is synonymous with poor controls in many gaming circles.
Exactly. I think most people here are too used to the controls to consider just how obtuse they are. The first step is realizing that you actually have a problem, and I think too many people see the (legitimate) criticism of DF's interface as an attack on the game. Also, yes, keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to navigate menus. No, no one is trying to take them away. However, we need some less confusing interface for new people. Currently, you basically have to either use a tutorial, or just mash buttons until you figure out how jobs work. This is not how interfaces should work, at all. I love DF, but something needs to be done about the interface.
Post by: Mike Mayday on January 14, 2010, 09:09:10 am
I'm sorry if it sounds like a personal attack but that just seems selfish to me, because it sounds like you'd rather that Toady works on more features for the already existing player base than improve the game in such a way that more people can enjoy it and Toady can get the money he deserves.
Post by: Kav on January 14, 2010, 03:15:26 pm
Exactly. I think most people here are too used to the controls to consider just how obtuse they are. The first step is realizing that you actually have a problem, and I think too many people see the (legitimate) criticism of DF's interface as an attack on the game. Also, yes, keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to navigate menus. No, no one is trying to take them away. However, we need some less confusing interface for new people. Currently, you basically have to either use a tutorial, or just mash buttons until you figure out how jobs work. This is not how interfaces should work, at all. I love DF, but something needs to be done about the interface.
It's obviously not perfect. On better organization I couldn't agree with you more. Whether it be some sort of logical organization, just alphabetical, or even consistent in it's randomness. Anything would be better than the way some of the menus are set up now. And some just don't have enough hot keys.
I can't agree on the interface feeling "obtuse" however. I figured out the numpad intricacies within 2 minutes of trying the game (back in 2d) and thought that it was damn clever the way toady laid it out. But then some people try pressing all the buttons and others feel a need to be told how to do things. It feels like a curses interface, which I use all the time, just with extra buttons. Most windows plebs however have not had the luxury.
One thing that would help a lot would be the job manager "type what you want" on every menu. Imagine that, the ability to type out whatever you wanted and watch it real-time filter out entries that don't match, in every menu. Example:
at a metalsmith's forge type
/iron spear
and then suddenly the only thing you see on the menu is iron spear without saying q-iron-weapon-spear with the keypad. This would be spectacular on multi-tiered menu's with too many options for hotkeys(forge,glass,craft,leather).
It's my #1 wish-list feature.
90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.
The[re] should still [be a] hotkey, after the name of course.
We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.
No one actually memorizes every hotkey, that's why the tab menu pops up every time you enter a top level command. But point and click construction would be great. Use the keypad to select the construction material or object, then just click wherever you want to designate buildings/walls/floors. That would be a spectacular supplement to the current system. I also wish the mouse worked for umhk stuff like farm plots and bridges.
The mouse is not a magic wand that you can waive at things to make them easier. Integrating it into a majority of the menus would be a waste of development effort with the result being far less desirable than you believe. The mouse should be used for it's strengths, not hacked into every operation of the application. Mouse for eyeballing and designating stuff on the left, and keyboard for menus on the right. Imagine how awesome it would be to click on your target after a k, v, or q command. That is where efficiency lies.
The struggle time might be eliminated by a 60 second "how to use the menus" tutorial button on the main menu. Or just link it to the main help, that's all in IIRC.
If you really don't think mouse support is important, try unplugging your mouse and using your OS. It's completely possible, but annoying and clunky, and the learning curve on keyboard controls is steeper than the learning curve of a mouse.I operate completely without a mouse at home and at work on a regular basis. "Annoying and clunky" defines mouse navigation. If you watched me navigate windows without a mouse you would wonder to yourself how many cumulative hours of your life you've wasted navigating and clicking on things with a mouse. I'm not trying to sound like a superior asshole, I really am that fast. By the time you've clicked an icon or a button I'm 6 directories in, have started a program, opened a file, made changes, saved and quit. Would you rather be doing things as fast as you can think, or aiming a mouse at that tiny little minimize button? The mouse is a crutch, let it go.
All it takes is keyboard recognition, knowledge of the hotkeys and commands, and a little practice. I'm not that awesome, anyone can do it ;D
Post by: Hyndis on January 14, 2010, 04:42:51 pm
Never noticed that. Never needed to use it either. Using a keyboard is vastly quicker than using a mouse as I can do a series of complex commands almost instantly, whereas the mouse is just one click at a time. So incredibly slow.
Post by: Djohaal on January 14, 2010, 05:11:08 pm
I have started playing the game about half a year before the release of the 3D version. To this day I encounter (frequently!) moments when I have to spend a large amount of time navigating the interface in search of the desired function/item when a better organization and proper mouse support would substantially reduce this time. I can understand that some people don't have a problem with it or they have memorized all the hotkeys to such an extent that it's no longer inconvenient. What bothers me is that they fail to see that improving the interface could increase the player base by hundreds of percent which means more money for Toady.
I'm sorry if it sounds like a personal attack but that just seems selfish to me, because it sounds like you'd rather that Toady works on more features for the already existing player base than improve the game in such a way that more people can enjoy it and Toady can get the money he deserves.
I have to fully agree on the player base issue. DF's keyboard interface and ASCII graphics (fortunately I use an awesome tileset downloaded on a certain green website ;D) are the major barrier for new players. However I must admit that when you get used to it the keyboard interface system is very efficient.
The mouse however has great utility when designating freeform digging and other organic shapes, howeer the keyboard surely wins due to the ease of counting the squares (shift+move is a blessing), so I'd like to have the keyboard interface kept.
Post by: Roxorius on January 16, 2010, 04:58:10 pm
Most windows plebs however have not had the luxury.
Yet there are many more Windows plebs than command-line wizards, and always will be. Do you really suggest that DF be restricted to those who would feel at home telenetting onto a Unix mainframe?
I operate completely without a mouse at home and at work on a regular basis. "Annoying and clunky" defines mouse navigation. If you watched me navigate windows without a mouse you would wonder to yourself how many cumulative hours of your life you've wasted navigating and clicking on things with a mouse. I'm not trying to sound like a superior asshole, I really am that fast.
No one really cares how efficient you are, actually, since you set up the contrast that most people are not. That's what this thread was about. What more do I need to say? This is not about training the entire world to become uber-DF interface navigators, just so that they can play DF every now and then. Most people want to chill out and play a game at their own pace, not approach a leisure activity thinking "If I memorize all these commands, I can play this game so much more efficiently!"
There's a reason why Windows replaced DOS, and computers would not have the broad appeal that they currently possess without that important evolution. Productivity for some may have gone down, by the average user's productivity went up.
Post by: father_alexander on January 16, 2010, 06:02:41 pm
Post by: Craftling on January 16, 2010, 06:36:55 pm
Post by: btbtbtbt on January 21, 2010, 12:57:59 am
- Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
- Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
- Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.
Yes, yes, and yes.
I'm perfectly comfortable with quickly getting the building that I want with a couple of keystrokes. It's placing them where the keyboard falls down. Surely people have played Starcraft or various other RTS games to the point where the mouse is only used for placing or selecting buildings and units?
Eg. Keyboard shortcut for building, click to put it where you want. Click building, keyboard shortcut to get it to build what you want.
The only thing I dislike about the current keyboard system is spamming direction buttons to select a particular dwarf in a group, or make a stockpile exactly 5x13 tiles or the like. Probably one of my biggest demotivators during megaconstructions.
Post by: Retro on January 21, 2010, 09:38:50 am
The mouse however has great utility when designating freeform digging and other organic shapes, howeer the keyboard surely wins due to the ease of counting the squares (shift+move is a blessing), so I'd like to have the keyboard interface kept.
Ah, freeform digging! I forgot about this. An old-ish fort I worked on that was one absolutely massive, sloping cavern was shaped entirely using the mouse feature to get decent generic curves (though later touched up with the keyboard). With just a keyboard, I would've had to plot the whole thing out in MS Paint and then try and imitate it. So there's that. But that's really the only time I've found the keyboard lacking, usually.
Post by: Jiri Petru on January 21, 2010, 10:25:54 am
Anyway, back to specific points...
Quote from: Kav
One thing that would help a lot would be the job manager "type what you want" on every menu. Imagine that, the ability to type out whatever you wanted and watch it real-time filter out entries that don't match, in every menu. Example:There is a slight problem with this - it only helps when you (1) know precisely what you want, and (2) know precisely how it is named/spelled. Then yes, it's a great feature.
at a metalsmith's forge type
/iron spear
and then suddenly the only thing you see on the menu is iron spear without saying q-iron-weapon-spear with the keypad. This would be spectacular on multi-tiered menu's with too many options for hotkeys(forge,glass,craft,leather).
It's my #1 wish-list feature.
On the other hand, I very often don't know what I want to do/build/etc. I want to see the options and choose one. It these case, I'd need above all a comprehensible, well-arranged menu with items grouped by some logic, with the more important ones better visible, etc. Also, I sometimes know what I want to do, but don't really remember the name of it (for example, I can't recall the name of the function that makes obsidian swords).
So basically, the search function is useful for people who have already remembered all the options, and don't really need the help, and not really useful for those who still need to learn the game and could use any help available.
EDIT: Disclaimer: My point isn't that your suggestions sucks - it doesn't and would be helpful to many people. My point is that when Toady gets to interface improvements, it would be great to do features for newcomers/more-casual gamers first, and only after that features for elite players.
Post by: riffraffselbow on January 21, 2010, 12:04:34 pm
Proper mouse support would also make designation, mass arrangement of furniture, mass selling/dumping/etc easier. and don't start on autohotkey; I know it, I use it, but it isn't a replacement for mouse support.
Post by: Sourlout on January 21, 2010, 12:24:57 pm
For example: they didn't like the multiple different methods to look around the map, one for buildings, one for dwarfs, one for stuff inside of buildsing, etc: they didn't like that some actions had different hotkeys in different menus, like to order a floodgate versus building a floodgate, digging a stairwell versus building a stairwell, etc.
They would like context sensitive menus. (Perhaps accessed by a mouse when right clicking as found in many other programs)
Post by: Craftling on January 21, 2010, 04:08:55 pm
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on January 21, 2010, 05:29:50 pm
I would probably still use the keyboard sometimes, but it's a physical inconvnence, both in terms of where my keyboard is located (slightly too far away, due to the placement of my desk), and in terms of my gimpy left wrist.
I have to type too much at work, anyway. I want DF to be as not like my job as it possibly can be.
Post by: varkarrus on January 21, 2010, 06:16:22 pm
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on January 21, 2010, 06:19:47 pm
Post by: Diablous on January 21, 2010, 09:10:28 pm
- Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
- Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
- Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.
That would be great to have. I am all for expanding the usage if the mouse. I don't see a real reason not to. If you don't want to, just use the keyboard, noone wants to remove hot keys and the like. Expanding mouse use can get more people interested, and would become more involved in the community. It can also lead to more people who can donate to toady.
The mouse would make mass furniture arrangment, designations and the like more efficient. I adapted to the keyboard well enough but there are times, where the keyboard seems clunky to me, and I would prefer to use the mouse.
The "Hot...keys? I have to stare at the list for hours to find what to build/designate. I am still in babysteps and therefore don't get a real say here." choice is insulting
I agree. That is very insulting, saying that just because someone is new, their opinion is null. As someone who is still somewhat new, I'm insulted.
I operate completely without a mouse at home and at work on a regular basis. "Annoying and clunky" defines mouse navigation. If you watched me navigate windows without a mouse you would wonder to yourself how many cumulative hours of your life you've wasted navigating and clicking on things with a mouse. I'm not trying to sound like a superior asshole, I really am that fast. By the time you've clicked an icon or a button I'm 6 directories in, have started a program, opened a file, made changes, saved and quit. Would you rather be doing things as fast as you can think, or aiming a mouse at that tiny little minimize button? The mouse is a crutch, let it go.
All it takes is keyboard recognition, knowledge of the hotkeys and commands, and a little practice. I'm not that awesome, anyone can do it ;D
You are coming over as very arrogant here. Roxorius said it better than I can so I won't go into any detail.
All in all, I want mouse control to be expanded, and I don't really see a reason not to. If there are valid cons to the expanding the mouse control(remember, we aren't talking about gutting the keyboard, in fact I want both to be as developed as possible) feel free to state it.
Post by: Grimlocke on January 22, 2010, 12:24:29 am
About other mouse support I could say that I allready mastered enough of the keyboard to not need it, but I wont cause I realy do see plenty of room for improvement. I allready use the mouse for a lot of designations, I just use the keyboard to select the type of designation and use the mouse to designate. Realy usefull when placing stairs or ramps. I think more menus could see convenience like that, specifically building placement.
Post by: ohgoditburns on January 22, 2010, 08:07:44 pm
I really couldn't live without that program. Being able to dig perfectly circular rooms, or to dig/ramp out entire mineral clusters and veins... That takes a huge priority over using a... mouse.
Post by: Deon on January 23, 2010, 11:52:29 am
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on January 23, 2010, 06:13:33 pm
Better mouse support would certainly be helpful in managing your military. It would be great to simply click on units under attack, or in the vicinity of hostiles, and immediately start issuing orders, rather than pausing the game and going through the tedious practice of looking each one up.
Being able to click on objects to get information about them would also be superior to using the K and T keys, which can be confusing, even if you still had to manually tell the game exactly what on the square you wanted to look at.
Unlike say choosing ASCII over 3D graphics, not having solid mouse support doesn't really add anything to the game. It's not a stylistic choice (DF isn't really a text-based game), it just isn't there, so improving it wouldn't cost anything other than the time spent to code it in, and it absolutely would save time for some players. The vast majority, I would guess.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 23, 2010, 08:55:47 pm
Toady said all the new menus have mouse support, remember.
Better mouse support would certainly be helpful in managing your military.
Post by: eerr on January 23, 2010, 11:32:08 pm
I operate completely without a mouse at home and at work on a regular basis. "Annoying and clunky" defines mouse navigation. If you watched me navigate windows without a mouse you would wonder to yourself how many cumulative hours of your life you've wasted navigating and clicking on things with a mouse. I'm not trying to sound like a superior asshole, I really am that fast. By the time you've clicked an icon or a button I'm 6 directories in, have started a program, opened a file, made changes, saved and quit. Would you rather be doing things as fast as you can think, or aiming a mouse at that tiny little minimize button? The mouse is a crutch, let it go.Okay, seriously.
All it takes is keyboard recognition, knowledge of the hotkeys and commands, and a little practice. I'm not that awesome, anyone can do it ;D
Playing DF shouldn't require memorizing 100 key combinations!
So no, people aren't going to let go of the mouse.
Simple(in this case) > fast.
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on January 23, 2010, 11:52:20 pm
Toady said all the new menus have mouse support, remember.
I know that, and you know that, but not everyone is convinced that it's a good thing, which is more what the thread is about than if we're getting the mouse at all.
The game uses the mouse now, and it's pretty much inevitable, in my opinion, that that support will continue to grow, even without any verification from ToadyOne.
The mouse is a useful tool. If there are people that want to only use the keyboard for everything, that's fine with me, and I hope support for the keyboard continues to grow, right along with the mouse. I hardly ever use the mouse in the game as it is, because the current interface between mouse and keyboard is so clunky, and because it's easier for me to digdraw with the keyboard than the mouse.