Post by: Supermikhail on August 11, 2010, 04:58:01 am
<...>One of the things I credit the most with improving my writing is the writing prompt--a word or phrase someone else comes up with, and about which you write a few hundred words over the course of 15 or 20 minutes. It's a great way to practice, since it gets you outside your comfort zone, and it would give this thread more of a purpose beyond just advertising.
Also, it's much, much easier, in my experience, to accept negative criticism on something you've banged out in 20 minutes, as opposed to something you've poured your soul into, and it's an important step to realize that the critics aren't always wrong.<...>
I'd suggest the following as more-like-guidelines:
1. Keep responses to about 500-750 words.
2. Don't agonize over them. Hammer out something quick; you can always refine it and expand it later.
3. Don't be afraid to tell other people which parts you don't like. We have rule #2 so that we can appreciate bluntness in criticism.
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY OF BAY12 WRITERS GUILD! ANYONE CAN PARTICIPATE! A WRITING COMPETION! A SINGLE PHRASE! 500 WORDS TO VICTORY!
Current Prompt: N/A. Post your suggestions in the thread.
Spoiler: Past Winners (click to show/hide)
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/writersguild.png)
So, this is the idea:
In the view of lack of interest to writing threads, but quite constant influx of writing itself, I think it'd be useful to make one big consolidated thread for it, to save space ;)
Main goal here is to bring more attention to writing efforts of Bay12 forumites. To achieve it, first I'm going to make a neat little post to collect the stories in via links. But that's not going to do much, is it? Well, I believe that for pleasant viewing the stories are going to need something to advertise them. I propose several options: a synopsis, a meaningful quote from the work, or praise from the critics, if we get there - a blurb, in short. That I'm going to place as a quote next to the link to the story. I feel it's a good way to attract readers. If there are a lot of participants, I may organize the stories by genres, or catalog them alphabetically, although that's a lot of effort, so that readers can find what they like easier.
Now, collecting stories is good, but we can do more. Aspiring writers and writers insecure about their works are welcome here if they want criticism. You see, it's this kind of guild, more like a club. There's a library to collect past works, then there is a place for apprentices to learn the craft, and then there is a place where writers gather to discuss their ongoing works. If anyone has a favourite piece on the forums that they think deserves more notice, submit it here.
So, that's the lofty goals. There is space for more, but it's enough for now.
If you write a blurb for a story that you like, or have submitted, it'll be greatly appreciated.
Since October 6, 2010, we're qualified to criticise your musical works!
BLURB TIPS
First, it shouldn't be generic. But you kind of want to make it sound big, so there are going to be "generic" words. Everyone is unique, so there must be something unique about what they've written. Try finding it and incorporating it into the blurb.
Second, if it's long genre, like a novel, or serial fiction, try not to spoil the story. Don't write what it's about, but rather describe the set-up, with little licks to lead the reader into the middle.
It could be useful to add from which authors you've drawn influence, if you have, so that the reader, if otherwise not touched by the blurb, may be attracted by the expected style.
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/Critique.jpg)
"The Good Karma Feedback Check List:
- Do it often; develop a support system with peers you respect.
- Don't promise to read a script and give feedback if you really don't have time.
- Do read the script promptly once you have it.
- Do ask your friend what they want out of this read. You'd be surprised at the different answers. Tailor your notes to the needs and wants of the writer.
- Do start on a positive note. If you can only think of one thing - stress it.
- Don't throw out your own suggestions - this is not your script; you'll derail the creative process.
- Do frame concerns in a "what if" question. (What if you tried this? What if you tried that? I wonder what would happen if this?)
- Do understand what the writing is going for or trying to achieve.
- Don't chide the writer for failing to execute the idea well; that's why you're reading it, ding-dong. If they thought it was perfect, they wouldn't ask.
- Do limit your comments to things like: logic, characters, stakes, ticking clock, and pacing; don't go all McKee/Campbell on your friend. I feel the subplot doesn't connect to the inner need of the protagonist and this is not reflected thematically in the arc of the dynamic character who has reached statis but must find Euclydian balance before the elixir can motivate the shapeshifter. Very annoying.
- Do write your notes down and summarize them.
- Don't do page edits and correct typos unless requested. This is also muy annoying."
Continue reading at http://www.moviebytes.com/ContestDetail.cfm?StoryID=3912&ContestNumber=2258&NewsTab=TRUE (http://www.moviebytes.com/ContestDetail.cfm?StoryID=3912&ContestNumber=2258&NewsTab=TRUE)
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/UsefulLinks.jpg)
For everybody:
The Art Of Dramatic Writing: Its Basis in the Creative Interpretation of Human Motives by Lajos Egri (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Dramatic-Writing-Creative-Interpretation/dp/0671213326)
On Writing by Stephen King (http://www.amazon.com/On-Writing-Stephen-King/dp/1444723251/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332569878&sr=8-1)
How to Write A Damn Good Novel by James N. Frey (http://www.amazon.com/Write-Damn-Novel-Step---Step/dp/0312010443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332569751&sr=8-1)
How to Write A Damn Good Novel, II by James N. Frey (http://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Damn-Good-Novel/dp/0312104782/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1332569751&sr=8-2)
For fantasy writers:
The Language Construction Kit (http://www.zompist.com/kit.html)
limyaael's Fantasy Rants (http://coyotecult.com/communities/sfandf_critters/references/limyaael.php) Warning! Rant heavy! Naturally.
For sci-fi writers (maybe):
Fortean Times (http://www.forteantimes.com/events/uncon2010/)
Mysterious Britain & Ireland (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/)
For ambitious (novel) writers:
National Novel Writing Month (http://nanowrimo.org/en/dashboard)(http://files.content.lettersandlight.org/nano-2011/files/2011/10/Neutral_100_100_white.png)
Storybook - Open Source Novel Writing Software for Novelists, Authors and Creative Writers (http://storybook.intertec.ch/joomla/)
yWriter5 - Free novel writing software to help you write a book (http://www.spacejock.com/yWriter5.html) Editor's note: Proceed with caution. I managed to freeze my system in an attempt to bring this program and Mono, installed on my computer, to a common denominator.
Random:
The Pathology Guy (http://www.pathguy.com/index.htm) - everything your private investigators and police officers need to know about the dead.
Editor's note on 24th of March 2012: Removed links that you ought to be lazy to not find yourself if you search the Internet
Post by: Supermikhail on August 11, 2010, 04:58:32 am
Spoiler: "Cold Chase", short story set in Medieval Scandinavia by Dwarf (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Unnamed story in the fairy tale genre by lordnincompoop (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Tomato People", very short story from the Halo universe by Karnewarrior (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "The Final Memorandum Daniel Blake" by Max "Splendiferous" Arnold (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "The Legend of Captain Drake", short sci-fi story by Little (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "The Robespierre" and other stories, collection by Little (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Can you hear their voices?", poem by Dakk (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "At a Glance", short story by Chris "Urist McNewb" (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Random short story by shadow_archmagi (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Unnamed DF-inspired story by SolarShado (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Untitled humorous story by Cthulhu (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Siege of Tecaknazom, year 230", DF-fiction by ProfessorA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Ad Infinitum", a story by TheDarkJay (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Jonnybell", DF-inspired short story by Cuddlefish (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Chains Of Loss", a sci-fi/fantasy serial novel by Talanic (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Birdwatchers", a cyberpunk short story by piecewise (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "The Apple", a sci-fi story by piecewise (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on August 12, 2010, 05:46:13 am
Spoiler: "The Spider's Crown", novel in original fantasy setting by Willfor (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Unnamed story in fantasy setting by Libelnon (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Zafalduthnur (Airguard)", serial fiction in Dwarf Fortress by Labs (click to show/hide)
" SupermikhailSpoiler: Unnamed zombie story by Immortal (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Snakes In The Garden", by bjlong (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Empty intrigue, sci-fi collection by Grakelin (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Unnamed story in DF setting by mendonca (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Constructs: To The City", a story in videogame fantasy setting by Willfor (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Lemonsnout: Story Of The Senator", fantasy by Karnewarrior (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Jailbreak", DF-fantasy by Krelos (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Untitled sci-fi by Jay "Fishbreath" Slater (click to show/hide)
Also, if some author sees his or her story in the post above and doesn't remember ever submitting it, don't be cross with me. I believe I'm doing it for the common good, but if you disagree, please speak up.
Editor's note on 24th of March 2012: It would be nice to verify the statuses but also require a lot of effort, so the works in this section should be considered definitely not finished, but not counted on to ever be completed.
Post by: Dwarf on August 12, 2010, 05:53:13 am
Actually, now that you've brought it up, I'll probably fix a sentence here and there.
I'll contact you.
Post by: mendonca on August 12, 2010, 09:05:24 am
Post by: nbonaparte on August 12, 2010, 10:06:00 am
Post by: Fishbreath on August 12, 2010, 10:21:14 am
Post by: Willfor on August 12, 2010, 05:16:09 pm
I'm probably going to put the first chapter of my revised edition up once I've finished it, at least. You guys were pretty helpful the first time around, so it seems only fair. It's going to be in its first draft so its pacing hasn't been looked at at all, but other than that it sets up the whole first part of the novel.
I'm hoping to start writing one-shots and such when I have writers block on my main thingy. Might throw one of those up if I ever actually stop using my writer's block to procrastinate.
Post by: Labs on August 12, 2010, 05:17:53 pm
Post by: Retro on August 12, 2010, 05:49:21 pm
Following, in the meantime.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 12, 2010, 08:35:28 pm
Spoiler: Many Words (placeholder title) - Original Fantasy (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on August 13, 2010, 01:27:17 am
@Fishbreath: Criticism to the submission.
I kind of got lost on your page when I went to look from the original thread... And, "Lägraltvärld" means "Many Words" I assume. I think it would be better to link here (http://many-words.com/category/lagraltvarld-all/lagraltvarld/page/2/) instead. Edit: or here (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/three-arrivals/).
Also, in the end, everyone chooses his own blurb, and mine aren't perfect, and I'm probably going to put it in the OP, but I think it's better to work on the blurb a little. It seems to me too generic. Surely there is something that sets your work apart from the rest of the fantasy things about 20-years long desperate wars. With magic. ;) I'll read through it, being kind of an editor here (and yesterday I started liking it - meaning reading - until my brain hurt), and see what I'll be able to come up with. I'm not being bossy, but bad blurbs kind of defeat the purpose of the thread.
@Labs: I need a blurb. I don't really know which category it goes in, or at what kind of reader it is aimed, so I'm at a loss.
Post by: Libelnon on August 13, 2010, 06:58:41 am
Cheers for putting my bit up here, I'll continue with that later when I finish what I'm doing here. Or I might write something else. I'm like that. Heh.
I also posted a link in that thread to one of my older stories, told in a dwarf fortress setting - feel free to add that up here too, although I won't be updating that one anymore.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 13, 2010, 07:54:51 am
@Fishbreath: Criticism to the submission.
<snip>
This is probably a better landing, yes: http://many-words.com/archives/
As for blurbs, well, I've admittedly always been absolutely terrible at them, or any kind of summarizing at all, for that matter--either I'm far too generic or I give away important parts of the story. None of my friends ask me what my book of the week is about, because my answer usually boils down to "well, you'll just have to read it yourself to find out". :P
Post by: Labs on August 13, 2010, 08:36:43 am
Oh, sorry.
Blurb:
Spoiler: Zafalduthnur (Airguard) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2010, 11:31:28 am
Post by: Supermikhail on August 13, 2010, 01:43:57 pm
@Labs, I didn't get any further than the first post (although as night is getting closer, I'm starting to realize that it's not my best day, in general, and especially for reading), but now, after reading the blurb, I'm really intrigued. Adding.
On that note, oomph, I've decided that I should take on one story at a time. I've read first post from Many Words, and I must say, that Fishbreath, you are too hard on yourself with purple prose. I didn't notice anything except said-bookisms. The style is very moody and really fantasyish, I think. But maybe I'm old-fashioned. Or a literary pervert... I'm thinking about putting emphasis on the style, unless further on you get more modern.
Also, if it's possible with Wordpress, you could put a link to the next part in each issue. It'll be much easier to navigate. Or separate Many Words and commentary into different blogs, and they'll do navigation for you.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 13, 2010, 02:26:36 pm
I'd love to do links from one entry to the next, but at the moment the only way to do it is by hand. If I were hosting it myself, I could do links within categories, but that would cost me more in both time and money, and I don't really have either to spare. I've looked into the multiple-blogs-single-ecosystem model, too, and I'll probably move in that direction eventually.
What I do feel kind of bad about is posting those links just as I'm halting updates for a month to get September through December done. <.<
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 13, 2010, 03:47:59 pm
I gotta find my Roy thread.
Also, I should probably restart the Imik thread. I probably won't, but I should.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 14, 2010, 12:39:01 am
By the way, in my sweep through the creative projects I dismissed several stories, one of them quite probably Karnewarrior's, on the account of randomness. Besides being hard to come up with a blurb for, I don't really find them funny, but that's a subject for debate.
Crap. "Tomato People".
Post by: Willfor on August 14, 2010, 12:32:49 pm
Spoiler: The Spider's Crown (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2010, 01:23:38 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on August 15, 2010, 02:14:30 am
Firstly, the beginning is confusing, kind of. Everything until "They nodded..." passed right by me. Maybe because there's too much information without any background. Or maybe because there isn't any introduction. A description of the speakers and the surroundings could help. Seamstress' shop can look differently depending on the era and the country. A person in a wheelchair can be a weathered war veteran, or a Victorian youth devoted to sciences.
Secondly, you should use more varied sentence structure. There are places where "She did..." repeats far too many times.
Thirdly, I guess it could be attributed to purple prose. Your dialogue is very dynamic, but then you insert a completely superfluous description of the landscape. Like
Quote
The city of Leanne sprawled out before her. She breathed in a puff of coal fumes mixed with flower scents from a stand across the street. The sky was full of small clouds, and the sun was behind one of them. A few trails of smoke were rising up from the city on the other side of the river. The skyline was full of construction with three new towers being raised. Reds and whites dominated the colors she saw. Hera stopped looking around, and focused on her company as they made their way through the streets.
Fourthly, he didn't really mean it, I hope. The way Hera acts doesn't really imply that Hector is able to kill her on a whim. Don't play with the reader.
Fifthly, unintended laughs. You know how I imagine a person would act if their guest spilled milk on the table? "Oh, goodness!... Don't worry, dear, I'll bring a cloth." I don't think that's what Renée's reaction was supposed to be.
Sixthly, I thought people would post in this thread instead of creating other threads for their stories. Well, I guess, for advertisement purposes, your way works better. But if your story is intended for this thread, post it in this thread, please.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 15, 2010, 07:46:23 am
Quote
Sixthly <snip>
Being that I'm on my phone a hundred miles or so from my nearest computer, I'll have to be brief. This thread is probably going to be a different creature than the Engravers' Guild, because in all honesty it's way easier to get ongoing prose works started, and way harder to post the equivalent of sketches.
There is a possible solution, though. One of the things I credit the most with improving my writing is the writing prompt--a word or phrase someone else comes up with, and about which you write a few hundred words over the course of 15 or 20 minutes. It's a great way to practice, since it gets you outside your comfort zone, and it would give this thread more of a purpose beyond just advertising.
Also, it's much, much easier, in my experience, to accept negative criticism on something you've banged out in 20 minutes, as opposed to something you've poured your soul into, and it's an important step to realize that the critics aren't always wrong.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 15, 2010, 10:13:55 am
With that I must apologize to Willfor for my previous post. I must work on my reviews. Mental note "Collecting all your negativity in a single post is a bad idea". There is a line over which constructive criticism turns into destructive.
@Willfor: The positive point is that, knowing where you're going from the previous version, I see that you probably have got a very epic adventure, a kind of a saga, in mind, and if you've pulled off completing it, even if it's a rough draft, I must really commend you.
Also, you've got a note there, and I think you're wrong. The dialogue is just fine, it's the canvas that could use work.
It's a good thing that we've got Fishbreath with us.
@Fishbreath: it's a really nice idea! I'm ready to jump on it right away, although all words and phrases that come to mind are dumb (like "Surveillance" and "Water in the fields of rice", just because I met them recently). Ugh, I need good ideas. I'd like to arrange it as a kind of contest, although I'm not sure that I'll be capable as a jury.
By the way, I'm in the middle of Three Arrivals, and have finally decided to add your story to the Ongoing Works with your blurb, but added something of my own to it, because I don't dare to speculate about the plot, but appreciate the style.
Post by: Willfor on August 15, 2010, 11:06:49 am
Spoiler: Snip (click to show/hide)
Not much time before I have to go on a trip (weee, vacation at last), but I'm going to address a few points. But before I do that, I do want to thank you for taking the time to look it over and post your views. Good criticism is hard to come by.
When I put down "early draft" I wasn't lying. I am more aware than most the amount of improvement it needs, and I have had to fight my internal editor all the way to keep myself from taking too much time to clean up earlier sections while I ignore getting any progress done at all. My first chapter of the previous attempt was in every way better than this, but it had the advantage of being worked over several times after I already had a few more chapters. But while it was better, I had very little grasp of the setting. Since I've revised it (though it doesn't show) I have a very good grasp of the cultures involved, and I could very easily add any number of descriptions to anything in the city. The whole thing could be set in note form to myself, because I am likely going to have to gut the whole thing. I would be more worried if I hadn't already had to gut my previous work several times to make it as good as it was.
There is only so much that this first chapter will be able to do in the end though. It's not a standard fantasy world, and I have a lot of characters and concepts I have to introduce. Probably too many actually. The ones introduced at the start are going to be very important for the whole book, and I am likely going to have to come back to this first chapter several times to weight it against everything else. Leanne needs to be fleshed out a lot more simply because it's being introduced, and then abandoned for about two chapters, and then it gets very important again. (Woo, working with an outline is awesome, I need to do it more often).
I'll take all of your criticisms under advisement when I go back to it, but I would like to move forward, which means it's probably going to be awhile before revisions can be seen. Novels are hard work. :(
@Willfor: The positive point is that, knowing where you're going from the previous version, I see that you probably have got a very epic adventure, a kind of a saga, in mind, and if you've pulled off completing it, even if it's a rough draft, I must really commend you.Dialogue is my strongest asset. If I can do nothing else, I have several times been told that I can do good dialogue. I don't ever really start believing it, but it's nice to know people enjoy it. :P Description has always come the hardest for me, which is why I am writing Hera: Her characterisation lives and dies on my ability to do good description. I am going to be exercising my description muscles a lot, and hoping they get stronger as I go.
Also, you've got a note there, and I think you're wrong. The dialogue is just fine, it's the canvas that could use work.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 15, 2010, 11:33:08 am
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2010, 11:40:42 am
I almost have a finished work to link here, but unfortunately it's the story to go with a Mafia game. Erm... I happen to think it's rather good, but you may disagree. Anyway, I hope that counts, and I'll let you know when I'm done so you can take a look.
Meh. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49517.0) it is.
I'll try to write something "real" at some point.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 15, 2010, 01:27:38 pm
I almost have a finished work to link here, but unfortunately it's the story to go with a Mafia game. Erm... I happen to think it's rather good, but you may disagree. Anyway, I hope that counts, and I'll let you know when I'm done so you can take a look.
Meh. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49517.0) it is.
I'll try to write something "real" at some point.
One problem. I don't know where to go after the second post, and links in "Flavour" don't help.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 15, 2010, 01:40:04 pm
Quote from: Supermikhail
... it's a really nice idea! I'm ready to jump on it right away, although all words and phrases that come to mind are dumb (like "Surveillance" and "Water in the fields of rice", just because I met them recently). Ugh, I need good ideas. I'd like to arrange it as a kind of contest, although I'm not sure that I'll be capable as a jury.
There are plenty of sources of daily and weekly writing prompts on the Internet that we could crib from. There's also this (http://watchout4snakes.com/CreativityTools/RandomWord/RandomPhrase.aspx) random phrase generator, which I've used when I don't like any of the other prompts I find. <adjective + noun> and <adverb + verb> are the best ones, normally. TVtropes' story idea generator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/storygen.php) is a decent tool, too, if a bit more difficult to turn into a good prompt. Most other forums in which I've done them have simply come to a consensus on which one(s) the readers like the best, which seems like the best way to judge them--tastes do, of course, differ. I'd be willing to kick us off--say, with a prompt today (right now, even!), one on Wednesday, and one next Sunday, but following that I'm going to be away from regular Internet access for a few months, and I don't want to commit to doing these on a regular basis.
I'd suggest the following as more-like-guidelines:
1. Keep responses to about 500-750 words.
2. Don't agonize over them. Hammer out something quick; you can always refine it and expand it later.
3. Don't be afraid to tell other people which parts you don't like. We have rule #2 so that we can appreciate bluntness in criticism.
And now, without further ado, I present Bay 12 Writers' Guild Writing Prompt #1:
joyfully mutinies
Post by: Dwarf on August 15, 2010, 05:24:53 pm
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2010, 06:50:26 pm
I almost have a finished work to link here, but unfortunately it's the story to go with a Mafia game. Erm... I happen to think it's rather good, but you may disagree. Anyway, I hope that counts, and I'll let you know when I'm done so you can take a look.
Meh. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49517.0) it is.
I'll try to write something "real" at some point.
One problem. I don't know where to go after the second post, and links in "Flavour" don't help.
Eh, skip it, then. It's kind of inextricably tied to the game itself, I suppose.
Post by: mendonca on August 16, 2010, 10:09:02 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
20 Minutes worth, not sure if I ever really got to the point, but I'm not sure if I ever do.
Both barrels, if you wouldn't mind.
Ta.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 16, 2010, 12:33:24 pm
In other news, I'll just note that I'm a pretty slow thinker in everything, so even discounting some time for multiple interruptions and being a non-native to English, I barely managed to get to the half of proposed word number. I didn't clock it, but finally decided that for fairness' sake I should stop there.
Spoiler: the Joyfully Mutinies by Supermikhail (click to show/hide)
It should have been about twice longer, I should probably now learn speed-typing-while-thinking, or try to exterminate the procrastinator inside. But enough of that crap. Any thoughts?
Post by: mendonca on August 16, 2010, 02:42:16 pm
Maybe I am a professional writer - and if I am, I don't know it yet. I admit I'm trying to coax him out but writing short bits of competent prose does not a professional writer make! Yeah, sorry for the coarse language, a lack of imagination linked to a time limit plus the coarseness of the character brings that out I suppose. I'll put a warning on the previous post.
In terms of your writing I'll try and give some thoughts - but I am not a particular good critic i.e. I like everything (including what you have just written) but, some general feelings from a couple of read throughs:
The 'staccato' rhythm of the writing at the start distracts me a bit. A single read through and I don't neccesarily know what is happening, my brain doesn't 'latch on' to what is going on.
Maybe the writing is a touch flat ... the descriptions are almost unneccesary and the length you go to describe the motions and the actions of the man in the underground would perhaps be more effective in a 'high adrenaline' set-up, rather than a simple commute. Maybe if the scene you have written was 'set up' a bit differently, it would work a lot better.
But yeah, I like it. I'm not sure it is 'spot on', but given the nature of the challenge, I like it.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 17, 2010, 02:06:11 pm
Or I just went completely into different field, that of quirks. And I'm not really good with them.
But it was a good exercise, and I would like to continue with it, maybe it'll help me write faster.
Now, as Wednesday creeps nearer, where I live, and brings to a close the pilot of the competition, I'd like to bring to the attention of anyone reading this a little... story from the archives, I guess, of the forums, dating back to March 05, 2009, a good half-year before I made my account here, and surprisingly on the first three pages of Creative Projects. So, this story is a little strange. I'll just blurb it below, without saying my own impressions, because I need an opinion of another in fear I might be biased.
Spoiler: "The Final Memorandum Daniel Blake" by Max "Splendiferous" Arnold (click to show/hide)
Also, the thread for it has been locked, and the author hasn't been online since January, as far as I can tell... but I guess, in view of the disclaimer I put in the Ongoing Works section, adding it won't be a moral problem.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 17, 2010, 02:30:40 pm
mendonca: It's executed very well, but you're right in that it doesn't really get where it seems to be going. It's a great example of why I love first person--getting into the heads of characters is much more natural with it.
Supermikhail: I disagree with what mendonca said about yours. I liked it quite a lot, and I thought the prose was pitch-perfect for the sort of story it was telling. It reminds me of the sort of stories that get told when I have lunch with my friends, and I love the punchline.
Post by: mendonca on August 18, 2010, 04:50:12 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I've tweaked it a bit at the start, interested to know if anybody wants to offer any thoughts.
Looking at that 'Splendiferous' piece of writing, it is a shame that writing does get such short shrift on these forums, from reading the start it seems very accomplished. I struggle, admittedly, reading directly from the screen and maintaining concentration (which is possibly a reason to take any criticism I might offer with a certain pinch of salt), but the first few paragraphs are really very good.
I know I couldn't have produced anything approaching that when I was 16. Oh well, thanks for bringing it up, I will definitely read that through to the end. I'll probably print it out though first.
E: Title, some errors - Thanks Supermikhail ...
Post by: Supermikhail on August 18, 2010, 05:37:15 am
Post by: Dakk on August 18, 2010, 01:02:17 pm
Can you hear their voices?
Calling out from nowhere.
Suddenly you hear noises,
And they're suddenly there.
At first you don't care,
Because its just gibberish.
Its not like they're really there,
You so wish.
Then they start making sense,
Carrying some meaning.
And then you feel tense,
As if you're falling.
They first came for my wife,
Such a feeling of dread.
The love of my life,
Found torn to shreds.
As I drank away the horror,
Using her favorite gin.
I suddenly fell in terror,
They had taken my kin.
"Why is this happening?" - my children ask,
Poor things, not ready for what comes next.
Who could have done such a task?
You ask as you read this text.
And then, they took them as well,
I felt feverish, was it flu?
I wish I had said farewell,
For they had taken me too.
It was already too late,
As now I was one of them.
And after that date,
I must others to this fate condemn.
It all started with those letters,
What an unfortunate choice.
They brought terror from beyond the ether,
Say now, friend, can you hear my voice?
Calling out from nowhere.
Suddenly you hear noises,
And they're suddenly there.
At first you don't care,
Because its just gibberish.
Its not like they're really there,
You so wish.
Then they start making sense,
Carrying some meaning.
And then you feel tense,
As if you're falling.
They first came for my wife,
Such a feeling of dread.
The love of my life,
Found torn to shreds.
As I drank away the horror,
Using her favorite gin.
I suddenly fell in terror,
They had taken my kin.
"Why is this happening?" - my children ask,
Poor things, not ready for what comes next.
Who could have done such a task?
You ask as you read this text.
And then, they took them as well,
I felt feverish, was it flu?
I wish I had said farewell,
For they had taken me too.
It was already too late,
As now I was one of them.
And after that date,
I must others to this fate condemn.
It all started with those letters,
What an unfortunate choice.
They brought terror from beyond the ether,
Say now, friend, can you hear my voice?
Lotsa bad rhymes, this is why I don't do poetry.
Post by: Urist McNewb on August 18, 2010, 01:04:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on August 18, 2010, 02:27:46 pm
Well, now my impressions.
@Dakk: it's an interesting topic, what was your inspiration? At first I thought to say "My condolences", but then looked at your profile, and I assume it's not a real life experience. Interestingly, I just had a mouse let out its last breath in the palm of my hand, and this poem came as a rare and nice coincidence.
About the rhyming I can't say anything negative. It clocked perfectly for me. There are no rhymes jarring to the ear, what's more I don't think the point of your work is rhymes like in some pieces I know, I think it's how it felt appropriate to convey the content this way. Am I right?
@Urist McNewb: First, you've asked about spelling, and I've got one thing to bring to your attention -
Quote
People had been flocking to the city for years now, but he had just begun to realize the extent of it, people were literally everywhere you looked.And that's the only thing, and I don't know of any grammar nazis in this thread.
About the content. Well, there is not much to say, it's kind of flawless. The style, the pacing, the atmosphere, all very good, quite surprising for someone's first attempt. Keep writing.
Also, I've read many first person stories recently, and it's a nice change to have something in third person.
Post by: Dwarf on August 18, 2010, 02:36:02 pm
Post by: Urist McNewb on August 18, 2010, 02:37:02 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on August 18, 2010, 02:56:16 pm
I don't think he 'wondered the streets' :)
Ah, I always pass by the beginning. Too many distractions, especially while trying to get into a reading mood (seriously, some people just talking around non-stop while I was trying to get over the middle!... but I did it nonetheless).
Thanks, it was nice to read the feedback, i'll probably try another story tomorrow, as i'm going to a movie tonight (Scott pilgrim vs the world) and that should give me some nicely creative dreams, which is what i base my stories off. That one was from playing Fallout 3 for a good 8 hours yesterday.Dreams give you crazy stuff to base your stories off. But then they can play with you not nice, because your brain doesn't arrange anything even remotely originally in them, just compact distribution and easy access. Unless it's a prophetic dream. See if you can come up with something like that tonight, to follow up on your ominous story. 8)
Post by: moocowmoo on August 18, 2010, 03:02:23 pm
Post by: Little on August 18, 2010, 03:40:22 pm
Mutiny on 25698
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dwarf on August 18, 2010, 04:01:24 pm
Inspired by Wongraven's "Fjelltronen" and Paysage d'Hiver's "Winterkälte"
Spoiler: The Black Throne (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dakk on August 18, 2010, 06:47:01 pm
And suddenly we have two little gems in this little thread. And quite at the right moment, for me. Just watched some X-files, and first Dakk's poem, really resonating, then Chris "Urist McNewb"'s story, where I couldn't imagine anyone but David Duchovni as the lead, so to say.
Well, now my impressions.
@Dakk: it's an interesting topic, what was your inspiration? At first I thought to say "My condolences", but then looked at your profile, and I assume it's not a real life experience. Interestingly, I just had a mouse let out its last breath in the palm of my hand, and this poem came as a rare and nice coincidence.
About the rhyming I can't say anything negative. It clocked perfectly for me. There are no rhymes jarring to the ear, what's more I don't think the point of your work is rhymes like in some pieces I know, I think it's how it felt appropriate to convey the content this way. Am I right?
I read this stuff (http://www.creepypasta.com/) when I'm bored enough, basicaly their purpose is to give the reader a sensation of fear and paranoia. I aways wanted to do one, but I was never inspired enough, then I woke up today, and the first and last verses just sorta popped in my head, and I worked the middle out after I got back from college.
I was never confortable using rhymes, because they make me feel I'm creating something quite cliche. I just couldn't find "proper" rhymes for some places and had to go with the next best thing, which wasn't exactly excellent.
Thanks for the compliment though, I'm not used to getting any for me textual creations, mainly because I'm a lawschool student so 70% of everything I write is brainstorming on laws, rights and jurisprudence.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 19, 2010, 01:21:40 am
Now, another comment I had was prompting a scientific discussion - how "mere" would you say three days would be in space? ;) No, seriously, can you say that when the speeds there reach thousands of miles per second, and pretty much everything, from where we stand, moves more or less directed by RNG (by everything I mean mostly meteorites comparable to a ship in size)? Well, this bugs me.
Otherwise, an excellent piece, quite on par with your other story that you might have noticed I linked in the Library, and that has a similar theme... Are you focused primarily on space sci-fi, or it's just a coincidence?
@Dwarf: yeah, it sounds like bullshit ::) Well, at least I haven't read anything in such a style... or what the word is... the meter is unfamiliar to my ear. But you've written the piece, and I assume it exists. I would be grateful if you could direct us, or introduce in some otherway, to this meter. E: or this is a song? :o
@Dakk: Yeah, the conventional rhyming is considered kind of "pop" by some people (well, not just some, but some), but I'm no expert, and I feel this thread desperately needs Piecewise, who I remember is almost(?) a professional literary critic. Alternatively, you could find a book on the history of poetry at your local library, and there's stuff that would really grab your ankles, because world-famous singers have too much money to collect at gigs to pay so much attention to their lyrics.
Ah, I'm sure you've studied Latin, and Roman authors are... famous for their versatile poetry... Am I correct?
Post by: Dwarf on August 19, 2010, 03:27:11 am
But if it's BS, I'm fine with it :P
I threw that together in half an hour or something.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 19, 2010, 03:39:37 am
Edit: bad choice of words.
Post by: Quarr on August 19, 2010, 04:43:31 am
Here's what I finished:
Spoiler: Joyfully Mutinies? (click to show/hide)
I'm pretty terrible at writing, though I'd like to consider myself average for a 15-year-old.
I'll apologize for breaking into rhyme for no reason then abandoning it and in general lacking any sort of plot whatsoever.
Post by: mendonca on August 19, 2010, 04:56:15 am
I think the purpose of the 'prompt' is to just get you to write for 20 minutes, so on that basis you succeeded.
I think it's a nice concept, and it reads almost like a dream - I'm not sure, but I think I know, what is supposed to be happening.
And thanks for posting it, no apologies necessary.
Post by: Quarr on August 19, 2010, 05:17:18 am
Post by: Supermikhail on August 19, 2010, 08:36:32 am
I haven't noticed any bad word choices (although some of them were beyond my vocabulary), and am very glad that the thread has tapped into the genre of parable. Well, at least I see your story as such, and would very much urge you to continue it in this way, if you do.
Post by: Urist McNewb on August 19, 2010, 09:15:41 am
Post by: Little on August 19, 2010, 04:11:53 pm
Now, another comment I had was prompting a scientific discussion - how "mere" would you say three days would be in space? ;) No, seriously, can you say that when the speeds there reach thousands of miles per second, and pretty much everything, from where we stand, moves more or less directed by RNG (by everything I mean mostly meteorites comparable to a ship in size)? Well, this bugs me.
Otherwise, an excellent piece, quite on par with your other story that you might have noticed I linked in the Library, and that has a similar theme... Are you focused primarily on space sci-fi, or it's just a coincidence?
Three days can feel like not too long ago when you were ripping through space at a frightening pace and now the ship is crippled and can hardly move. It's more of a perspective thing from the captain's viewpoint where he's reflecting on how they had engines and now they don't.
As for doing sci-fi, I just really enjoy writing it. It's fun, it's quick, and it allows you to do something a little outside the box of mainstream fiction.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 19, 2010, 10:01:40 pm
Bay 12 Writers' Guild Writing Prompt #2:
To put it very briefly, surprise us. That is to say, write something that, whether by a misunderstanding between characters, a play on words, a misleading description, or something else entirely, takes the expectations we build up through the prompt and turns them upside-down at the end.
Inspired by the last line of Supermikhail's response to the last prompt.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 20, 2010, 02:06:54 am
Then, there is another problem - should I add the mutinies to the library? They are supposed to be just exercises, and how much value do exercises have for posterity? Ah, I'll do it anyway.
Edit: That's a tough one, Fishbreath. Seems you're set on Writing Olympics with these exercises.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 20, 2010, 07:08:18 am
Spoiler: Prompt #2 Response (click to show/hide)
Actually, I think I suddenly realized that it fits with the prompt, and as I wanted to do it, I set to it immediately. Can you see how it fits? ;)
Also, as I wanted to do it very much, I said screw time guidlines. It took me about two or two and a half hours. And in the end I kind of got dizzy, and would very much appreciate any criticism, as I'm in no condition to evaluate this story now myself.
Post by: Spartan 117 on August 20, 2010, 02:18:02 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64273.0
Some folks in this thread-the thread being about a random fanfic plot generator-were wondering, if they actually wrote the ideas it generated, could they be placed here?
Post by: Supermikhail on August 20, 2010, 02:30:10 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on August 23, 2010, 09:52:57 am
I have said before that I don't intend to include random stories because I don't find them funny, but there's one that made me laugh, so apparently, it depends on the story. The one in question is this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39855.0).
This round of the contest has run its course, it seems (and I won't blame it on Fishbreath because I couldn't come up with a better prompt... quite possibly it's time to take matters into my own hands).
Also, surprisingly for me, the Library has managed to turn into a wall of text, which I was trying to avoid. Apparently it needs a better design. What makes browsing at a book shop not a chore? - my guess is, illustrations. The backs of books look different, and there is a need for it here. My proposition calls for more effort, however. That is, replace spoilers with images that serve as blurbs and links at the same time. And look nice to the eye.
I need designers. I could draw something myself but I don't have colors (and even if I got them now, I'd have to learn to use them first). It doesn't have to be an artist, it can be a photographer or a photoshopper. Someone who can do a distinct image about 800x100 pixels to replace the current blurbs. An image that would carry the theme of the piece it illustrates.
Edit: Writing Prompt updated. Current Prompt - An island, a banana cream pie, and outdated software. Let's see how well that goes.
Post by: Dwarf on August 25, 2010, 03:44:11 pm
Spoiler: Dethronement (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on August 26, 2010, 05:45:49 am
From a fellow non-native speaker, check it with your non-native spell-check; some phrases sound awkward.
Also, check it with your Medieval spell-check - some things sound too modern, like "low profile". The dialogue in the beginning sounds a little cheesy, or maybe staged, I can imagine the kids - not too good actors - speaking with monotonous voices. Try acting the lines out.
When you say "Presumably, half of it was underground...", what does "presumably" imply? To me, it implies another storyteller who's telling the story in which a father is telling his childer a story. Watch out for such things.
Quote
Five hunched up figures sat in the middle of that hut, two larger and three smaller ones.This brings to my mind unhuman figures, the way you're telling it. Their size difference appears to come from them being different species, rather than of different ages. You'd do much better to crack right away, like
Quote
Five hunched up figures sat in the middle ofAnd why'd you change the name of the building?that hutthe cottage - father, mother and three children.
Well, enough nitpicking. As you can see, the language is quite clunky, but not amateur-clunky, that is, for example dialogue tags don't stand out, and that I like. The paragraph style is strange, and leaves a feeling that you could make the narrative tighter. Anything else is hard to say, I'd like to see where it's going to judge on content.
Post by: Dwarf on August 26, 2010, 10:03:24 am
However, I've got all kinds of weird keyboard layouts ;)
Yes, dialogues. I suck at them - Shall see what I can do, however.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 27, 2010, 04:32:11 am
And so I wonder if it's possible to make the thread sticky, or if it deserves being sticky. For that purpose the OP could be more organized, but I'm unable to come up with better design.
Also, withdrawing previous note about writers posting here if they post for this thread. It may be lessening the attention their stories get, really.
Also also, I'd like to note that the Library is updated almost daily these days, with pieces I've carefully picked off the subforum, according to my strict criteria of entertainment value.
Post by: Dwarf on August 27, 2010, 05:41:11 am
The missing apostrophe in the thread's name.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 27, 2010, 07:11:38 am
For the example of spelling - Writers Guild of America, East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writers_Guild_of_America,_East).
Post by: Dwarf on August 27, 2010, 09:50:06 am
Ignore me, then.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 28, 2010, 08:45:27 am
Today I've decided to make a burn-out day - my brain's been sizzling since morning, I reckon from all the bad writing I've read recently. :)
But to be honest, most of the things I put in the Library are mediocre, and the fact that almost all of them have grammar issues doesn't help. That is, to be honest to myself. Why don't you people read them through and edit them... one more time. It's not like you're on a deadline.
In other news, I've just discovered with the help of Wikipedia that what I've been happily calling "short stories", in fact belongs in the category "flash fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_fiction)". That's amusing.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 29, 2010, 02:08:09 am
The Language Construction Kit (http://www.zompist.com/kit.html)
Creating a Realistic Fantasy World (http://www.writing-world.com/sf/world.shtml)
Fantasy Worldbuilding Questions (http://www.sfwa.org/2009/08/fantasy-worldbuilding-questions/)
Also, a couple of other links that might be slightly relevant.
Fortean Times (http://www.forteantimes.com/events/uncon2010/)
Mysterious Britain & Ireland (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/)
Post by: Willfor on August 29, 2010, 02:40:14 am
Post by: Supermikhail on August 29, 2010, 03:32:09 am
I'll add it with a word of warning, as my head's already started sizzling again with all the negativity contained behind this link.
Post by: Fishbreath on August 30, 2010, 08:58:30 am
I don't really have much more to add, besides a sly remark that I'm mostly doing this to keep the thread looking healthy. I didn't read back very much; if people want another prompt I may be able to come up with one tomorrow morning (although I'm currently GMT+3, and my morning and yours are probably very different right now :P).
There's also a snippet of verse--just two lines--referring to the Many Words universe that may or may not eventually find its way into the story (maybe as part of a lullaby, since those seem to be pretty black a lot of the time):
Twelve forsake you, spirits take you
Lest you sleepless pass 'til morn
I tried 'bide' and 'wait' in where 'pass' is, but I liked the esses.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 30, 2010, 09:42:45 am
About writing prompts... Let's say we're on hiatus. I think a hero must arise who will start another round. I've changed the prompt two times already, and haven't had any luck with participants. Of course, if you come up with something absolutely brilliant, that will make people's writing organs salivate, post it, this thread could sure use it.
Oh, and thanks for bumping. :)
On the topic of writing. Today I'm in the mood for novels, the links about worldbuilding are going to come in useful. Additionally, I've come upon this article (http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/snowflake.php) advertising organized approach to writing and describing the author's method step by step. Also, I'm currently trying to install and make run this piece of software (http://www.spacejock.com/yWriter5.html), called yWriter. As my long-term plans now include the design of two fictional worlds, and are bound to irreparably clutter my home directory if I do it the old way, I hope to find yWriter very helpful in organizing the process.
And I wonder if the forum is going to be interested in my progress. ::)
Post by: Fishbreath on August 30, 2010, 11:19:32 am
@Fishbreath: Is it a charade? My guess is your pantheon comprises of twelve gods... And it's kind of bad as a lullaby currently. I understand it thusly: the gods will forsake you and spirits will take you if you don't stay awake until morning... More of a curse or an enchantment, really.
Pantheon is a passable way to describe it, if a bit misleading. >.> You've got the gist of it; scary lullabies are something of a cultural feature of Brazil, if the Internet doesn't misinform me, and the English "Rock-A-Bye Baby" is marginally creepy. I figured I'd just go overboard with it, since that's a feature of the Many Words world.
Post by: Supermikhail on August 30, 2010, 11:38:26 am
Post by: Willfor on August 30, 2010, 03:00:29 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on September 01, 2010, 04:22:01 am
Let the moonlight cease to wake you
Look to westward*, yet forlorn
Twelve forsake you, spirits take you
Lest you sleepless pass 'til morn
*Westward being toward the sunrise here.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 01, 2010, 05:17:04 am
On my previous comments, I've just discovered a couple of new meanings for the word lest, and while your last two lines seem to be technically semantically correct, they still do not read well to me. I read it like spirits aren't a supernatural evil force, but a side concerned about the child's lack of sleep, that is, they are going to do cruel things to him as a preventive measure against him staying awake all night.
Although, some readers might pass it on the account of fanciness. But I suggest you drop this part and start it anew, you seem to be too fixated on too small a matter, which doesn't look healthy to me. Poetry should be about as easy to write as prose, if it doesn't in your case, maybe you need to do some writing exercises.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 01, 2010, 06:00:32 am
As for speed, I'd disagree with that. Writing decent verse is way harder than writing good prose--you write prose to evoke a feeling, but you have a purpose for every single word in a piece of verse, and that's hard to do with prose of any length.
As for meaning, I'll simply say that it reads okay to me. Spirits aren't necessarily benevolent. If you want I'll explain more, but it'll have to wait. It's a huge pain typing on a phone keyboard.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 01, 2010, 07:26:22 am
In other news, in the process of design overhaul I've doodle up a picture for the "On criticism section". Here it is:
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/Critique.jpg)
Post by: Fishbreath on September 01, 2010, 10:05:03 am
As for self-confidence (which is a nicer way of saying "massive ego") I'm certainly not lacking in that. From my Rules of Letting People See Your Writing:
#1. Everyone's a critic.
#1a. They're not always right.
#1b. They're not always wrong, either.
Post by: Duelmaster409 on September 01, 2010, 11:28:26 pm
Post by: Acanthus117 on September 01, 2010, 11:57:31 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 02, 2010, 10:08:30 am
Today's highlight -
On the topic of bad prose. It appears that it's really much easier to write good short stories than good long genre. Part of the problem must lie in wrapping your head around the plot, and rewrites are much easier. Also, practicing in the genre with novels must be a killer. So, I take my hat off to Fishbreath and Willfor, for their determination.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 02, 2010, 12:05:03 pm
@Supermikhail: I just looked at yWriter, and that looks pretty darn useful to me. I haven't had a chance to try it out, but all the organization features look like exactly the sort of stuff I could use for Many Words*--I have an outline on my head, and a little bit on paper, but I have a way of forgetting things and losing papers.
The forum is also totally interested in your progress. We don't talk enough about worldbuilding here, or writing-in-progress and those are very, very important components to the end product. The deeper the world, the more believable the stories set in it are, and it's much easier to edit something or give mechanical pointers if it's not done yet.
* Which has begun updating again!
Post by: Supermikhail on September 02, 2010, 02:23:22 pm
But first, a positive moment! The new chapter, and finally action! Also, I totally relished the description of the draug. I'd wanted to find out what it was for so long. On that suspense I can commend you. Now...
To start mild - watch out your dialogue tags. In Unhappy Circumstances you use "he allowed". I simply froze in disbelief when I read up to that place. Big no. The fewer times you use anything but "said", the better, and I've been slowly developing an opinion that one should strive to do without dialogue tags at all. Kind of perfection of dialogue. Call me crazy.
A larger problem. Maybe I just read it too fast, but the characters don't seem to me to tick as unique. Like, the dialogue is spoken by one person. I can't pin it down, I can only guess that it's possible that you don't quite get into the heads of your characters. Or maybe you need to work on your dialogue. I feel you characters could use... more different characters.
It occurred to me when I read about Eirik trying to explain to the mariners his spirit sight. Basically, this sight, this magic, is something that a lot of his friends have, that a bunch of people in this world can do. It seems like every corner has a wizard guild, and every person has a spell book. So, why are we interested in these people, Anja, Rakel and Eirik? Well, Anja seems sort of mildly unusual, although Eirik goes around resurrecting girls like her all the time, and the council has seen magic more powerful than hers. Eirik - is your average mage, it appears as if he's in this story just to provide background, explain the mechanics of this world to the reader. Rakel - is simply a capricious witch. I read to the end of Three Arrivals and couldn't understand why they were chosen as protagonists, and not any other commoner. So, my guess is, you cut the chapter a little too early, because the first chapter should show the reader why he should care. Or you need to tweak the pacing.
Then, in some places names seem to be intriguingly long. Would you consider translating what they mean in a footnote? I feel like I'm missing out on some word play (or you're trying to hypnotize me with magical letter combinations 8)).
Another little note. Somewhere on the ship, we've met two characters whose names start with "E" (three names, if I recall correctly, Eirik E-something and Captain Eriksson or something). It's a bad practice, because it confuses the reader.
Post by: WhiskerMeister on September 02, 2010, 07:59:13 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on September 03, 2010, 01:00:04 am
Well, Fishbreath, you've prompted me to finally read through all of the current Many Words, and I've come up with a new bunch of harsh critique.
Always welcome.
Quote from: Supermikhail
But first, a positive moment! The new chapter, and finally action! Also, I totally relished the description of the draug. I'd wanted to find out what it was for so long. On that suspense I can commend you. Now...
It gets better. There's something big that'll happen in all three of the current chapters by December.
Quote from: Supermikhail
To start mild - watch out your dialogue tags. In Unhappy Circumstances you use "he allowed". I simply froze in disbelief when I read up to that place. Big no. The fewer times you use anything but "said", the better, and I've been slowly developing an opinion that one should strive to do without dialogue tags at all. Kind of perfection of dialogue. Call me crazy.
Maybe I will. I'd call it a difference in style—certainly I would say that an overuse of dialog tags is an issue, and at the start of Three Arrivals I was using about half 'said' and 'asked' and half fancier ones, which isn't a good balance. On the other hand, an underuse of fancy dialog tags isn't a particularly good thing, either, in my opinion. There's only so much nuance you (or maybe just me :P) can create with 'said' and adverbs, and if you're careful about using non-standard dialog tags, they have a much greater impact on the reader.
Quote from: Supermikhail
A larger problem. Maybe I just read it too fast, but the characters don't seem to me to tick as unique. Like, the dialogue is spoken by one person. I can't pin it down, I can only guess that it's possible that you don't quite get into the heads of your characters. Or maybe you need to work on your dialogue. I feel you characters could use... more different characters.
I accept this as true. As the front page says, Many Words is partly a place to improve myself, and characterization is one of those fronts on which I could use some work. I think it gets better in the stuff that's going up now, but I am largely incapable of judging my own writing on the merits, so I'll let you decide in the coming months.
EDIT: while brushing my teeth I realize that there's another facet to this problem: at the moment, my characters don't really talk distinctively. In fact, they mostly talk like me, with a few minor differences each. This is a problem. I comment on pacing below; I think that what I'll do is designate Eirik's next chapter as a place to work on that, and the next chapter for the other two as a place to work on more distinct dialog.
Quote from: Supermikhail
It occurred to me when I read about Eirik trying to explain to the mariners his spirit sight. Basically, this sight, this magic, is something that a lot of his friends have, that a bunch of people in this world can do. It seems like every corner has a wizard guild, and every person has a spell book. So, why are we interested in these people, Anja, Rakel and Eirik? Well, Anja seems sort of mildly unusual, although Eirik goes around resurrecting girls like her all the time, and the council has seen magic more powerful than hers. Eirik - is your average mage, it appears as if he's in this story just to provide background, explain the mechanics of this world to the reader. Rakel - is simply a capricious witch. I read to the end of Three Arrivals and couldn't understand why they were chosen as protagonists, and not any other commoner. So, my guess is, you cut the chapter a little too early, because the first chapter should show the reader why he should care. Or you need to tweak the pacing.
Pacing is another thing I need to work on, and actually this is a terrible format for it. I find myself worried that things are going to be too short when in actuality they're too long, and then things I wanted to fit into a chapter get pushed back to the next one, and it ends up reading very slowly, and so on and so forth. If I wrote chapter-by-chapter instead of entry-by-entry it would probably be better, but the problem there is that I'd need a much bigger buffer to do that—I'd need to be a full chapter ahead on all of them, and that's more than I'm ahead even now.
The other part of this comment is mostly poor explanation on my part—it may look like mages are common (since all three are viewpoint characters), but in actuality there are a few thousand out of a population of more than a million. I'll keep mum on Eirik, since we'll find out a lot more about him and Anja in the next few weeks, and remark that I am delighted that you think that about Rakel—caprice is one of her defining characteristics (I might try and use a nicer word, but I'm also biased).
Quote from: Supermikhail
Then, in some places names seem to be intriguingly long. Would you consider translating what they mean in a footnote? I feel like I'm missing out on some word play (or you're trying to hypnotize me with magical letter combinations 8)).
Which ones do you want to know? I don't know if I'll translate them in the text, since fiction that comes with a glossary is kind of irritating to me, but I'd be glad to tell you here.
Quote from: Supermikhail
Another little note. Somewhere on the ship, we've met two characters whose names start with "E" (three names, if I recall correctly, Eirik E-something and Captain Eriksson or something). It's a bad practice, because it confuses the reader.
Yeah, I know. Eskilsson and Eriksson and Eirik are all way too similar, but I was absolutely unable to resist naming the mariner in the Norse-inspired world 'Leif Eriksson'. Call it a personal failing. :P
Post by: Willfor on September 03, 2010, 02:04:39 am
It appears that it's really much easier to write good short stories than good long genre. Part of the problem must lie in wrapping your head around the plot, and rewrites are much easier. Also, practicing in the genre with novels must be a killer. So, I take my hat off to Fishbreath and Willfor, for their determination.
As to wrapping my head around the plot, it tends to be more difficult in terms of the things I like to write. I like complexity, and I like writing casts of characters. Character dynamic is something I really enjoy trying to capture. I like building things up, and then layering them. Most of the things I start die in infancy because I realise 100-1000 words into it that I don't care enough about it to outline it, figure out how all the characters relate, and work their motivations in.
My current project (it's lasted this long without me abandoning it, it seems like a keeper) has roughly 44 named characters with motivations at the moment, but only about 16 of them will really get fleshed out to the reader. But my knowledge of their motivations allows me to see into the situations that are going to come up, and are going to greatly help when I revise my outline. (Fun fact: I had an outline all done for it, but since I hadn't taken into account the antagonists' motivations it fell apart)
Another note: Dialogue has everything to do with mimicking the speech patterns of the kind of person you want to portray:
"And he like, totally had that coming. I phoned Jennifer, and she said it was like, he didn't care, but then I phoned Carla, and she was like 'bitch, please, you couldn't hold a guy worth shit.' Bitch."
"Uh . . . Okay? I don't think I even asked about any of that. At all."
Even if I were to continue their dialogue, I wouldn't need to tag them. They are distinct from each other. Also, punctuation is every bit as crucial to dialogue as the words are. I (personal preference) like to place commas at every natural breath, and periods at ever pause. If you imagine your character having any kind of voice, just try to imagine them talking and use the speech pattern.
Post by: Vector on September 03, 2010, 02:14:51 am
So, the tags shouldn't be necessary to figure out who's speaking, but they should still be there.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 03, 2010, 03:05:40 am
I think you definitely need to continue, but whichever way, I warn you against staying as vague, because your story needs to be about something more or less concrete, even if it's not apparent from the start. Because otherwise it's teenage blog genre (I confess, I almost dismissed your story as such at "her beautiful face").
@Fishbreath: About dialogue tags you may be a little too positive. I view it this way, and from all the writing advice I've read on the web, I'm pretty sure many other people view it similarly - fiction - unless it's by a very popular Spanish philosopher - is written to convey images, mostly audio-visual, with a touch of smell and tactile sensations. Even if you're a philosopher, the reader doesn't consider your issues straight from the writing, but after viewing the imagery. So, the better you are able to convey images with your writing, the better your writing is. It includes the flow of the narrative, which applies to dialogue. I've read recently that when people come to quote marks, they get in a different mood. They kind of expect it, by formatting, to be easier to read. But if you put a bit dialogue tag, they have to stop and turn on their author voice mode, their narrative reading dictionary, and you don't want them to stop. Because they might as well put down the book.
Also, trying to give your writing character with characteristic dialogue tags is cheating.
By the way, on the matter of characters. It might be not exactly up your valley, but you might like to read a book called "The Man In The High Castle" by Philip Dick. I'd like to think of it as one of the best multi-character narrative pieces. Philip Dick even gives the author voice in each section a different flavor. So, it might give you inspiration.
About names, there was a city name, coming to which I wasn't sure if you were turning the story into comedy. You either need to make footnotes for such occasions, or reconsider your naming. Also, it probably wouldn't be as weird if everyone spoke Icelandic (or whatever language that is), or you wrote in it. As you write in English, you have to take into account baffled mono-lingual speakers.
Oh, while I was writing.
@Willfor: I'm disappointed, sir. Seriously, you drop something at 1000 words because you've grown bored with it? Well, maybe it's a good exercise to at least outline it? It's not a lot of work, really. I put my hat back on. >:(
You know, who has about as many characters? J. R. R. Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings. You know how many pages he has to develop them? About 600. Be warned, as you aren't going to get away with a 100-page novel (but you could practice with such your other, abandoned projects).
I absolutely agree with you on the matter of dialogue,
@Vector: What Willfor said. Also, you can denote who's speaking, with action without interrupting the dialogue. Like
Bob fished a fresh bottle out of the bucket.
"And he like, totally had that coming. I phoned Jennifer, and she said it was like, he didn't care, but then I phoned Carla, and she was like 'bitch, please, you couldn't hold a guy worth shit.' Bitch."
Marika fidgeted on her seat.
"Uh . . . Okay? I don't think I even asked about any of that. At all."
Willfor has got a solid grasp on the theory, practice is lagging. How about a writing prompt? :)
Post by: Fishbreath on September 03, 2010, 04:42:22 am
Post by: mendonca on September 03, 2010, 05:04:03 am
No markers, no tags, a name might be dropped at the start of a dialogue exchange, but apart from that it's just new lines.
Personally I find it a struggle to fully and completely understand all the way through without re-reading certain portions of it, but the characters are generally seperable, in that I mean they are certainly rich, but not necessarily easily identifiable through all individual dialogue exchanges. Interesting style choice I suppose, but it does not help in the flow of the book.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 03, 2010, 07:27:19 am
@mendonca: Yes, some identification from time to time is necessary (unless your characters speak ridiculously differently, like one in a British accent, other in a German one). But I say, only when necessary. Otherwise it's annoying, and I kind of know it from experience, because once I used to flash dialogue tags like crazy (if anyone remembers my Othor II thread) and rereading that stuff is pain.
Today I haven't discovered anything noteworthy for the Library. Sort of highlights are
Wasted, a micro story by DeadlyCairn (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47083.0),
Nightway, a micro story by The Mad Engineer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47297.0)
maybe I'm just tired, or too anxious to get back to worldbuilding (which has gradually transformed into outlining).
On a different note, I've got a thought :o I wonder if collaborative writing really works. While sifting through all these stories, some of them mediocre, some more interesting, I catch myself on an urge - that it's not that they should be just above a certain bar - I'm looking for a gem, a bestseller, something I could lose myself in. And I know that it's hard to lose yourself in a micro story. So, I wonder if something really good and really big can be written on the forums. I would imagine that it'd be done the Snowflake method (to which I put a link in Useful Links), so that at first people brainstorm the idea, then the summary, then the characters... and only later start really writing, so as not to step on each other's toes with different plot ideas.
That'd be real cool, right?
Post by: Willfor on September 03, 2010, 09:25:37 am
@Willfor: I'm disappointed, sir. Seriously, you drop something at 1000 words because you've grown bored with it? Well, maybe it's a good exercise to at least outline it? It's not a lot of work, really. I put my hat back on. >:(
You know, who has about as many characters? J. R. R. Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings. You know how many pages he has to develop them? About 600. Be warned, as you aren't going to get away with a 100-page novel (but you could practice with such your other, abandoned projects).
I absolutely agree with you on the matter of dialogue,except one point. "Like". We want dialogue to read realistic, not be realistic. That is, getting rid of all the annoying stuff.Maybe it's somewhat necessary. :)
Bored is not the right word. There is also the matter of my internal editor screaming that it will never sell; My inability to pull the thing cohesively together in my mind; The fact that I get ideas for a new novel every two days and if I don't kill them in their infancy they die on their own by not being as interesting as the next one. While I am working on Hera's story I am refusing all other novel-length ideas at the door just because I have finally found the one that I can convince my internal editor will sell, and I can convince my muse that it's worth spending a year on. (hopefully less, but I have other obligations in my life)
I don't want to be the next Tolkien with my characters. I want to be the next Robin Hobb with my characters. And yes, she fleshes out many more characters than I admitted to, but I am quite certain more characters are going to show up for me to have to account for. The story always grows, and I am pretty sure I am already going to have to leave a lot of it on the cutting room floor by the end.
As for practice while I'm trying to plot the novel out, I do have an idea for that. I'll be posting pieces of it here soon enough.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 03, 2010, 09:46:19 am
Although, I'm going to hold you on your promise eagerly.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 03, 2010, 09:51:33 am
@Fishbreath: Okay, just look through Unhappy Circumstances.
<snip>
On a different note, I've got a thought :o I wonder if collaborative writing really works. While sifting through all these stories, some of them mediocre, some more interesting, I catch myself on an urge - that it's not that they should be just above a certain bar - I'm looking for a gem, a bestseller, something I could lose myself in. And I know that it's hard to lose yourself in a micro story. So, I wonder if something really good and really big can be written on the forums. I would imagine that it'd be done the Snowflake method (to which I put a link in Useful Links), so that at first people brainstorm the idea, then the summary, then the characters... and only later start really writing, so as not to step on each other's toes with different plot ideas.
That'd be real cool, right?
Yeah. I think I've said before I'm not at all happy with the average quality of Three Arrivals, but I think I also said that forging onward instead of endlessly editing is my preferred way of doing things. If I have some time and I feel like putting Three Arrivals together all into one place, as I really should eventually do, I'll see if I can wring something better out of it.
On to collaborative storytelling: that's really the only way to do it. A plot beforehand is absolutely necessary if you want something better than a collaborative forum post story; on the other hand, you may have been expecting too much out of that form. :P All the successful collaborations I've read and read about (and once or twice been a part of) have had two qualities: first, there's a solid plot, and second, there aren't more than three people involved. More than that and it gets really, really hard.
Quote from: Supermikhail
NaNoWriMo.
Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?
EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!
Post by: mendonca on September 03, 2010, 10:13:43 am
Quote from: SupermikhailNaNoWriMo.
Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?
EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!
I'll probably be having a go, I won Script Frenzy this year (link) (http://www.zen102301.zen.co.uk/writing/The Silk Dolls.pdf), and to top it off I have a week in a remote house in the middle of France booked off in November.
I really enjoyed it, and Script Frenzy really gave me some confidence in putting together some kind of plot of anything more than 2,000 words, hopefully I can get something similar out of NaNoWriMo. But this time perhaps I will take it to another level and actually carry out some editing work on my result.
EDIT: Avoiding Double Post
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Something I am working on. I have had a single edit run through this after writing it a couple of months ago - offered up for critique. (don't know yet if it is entirely coherent with the whole story, but will get there...)
Post by: Vector on September 03, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
@Vector: What Willfor said. Also, you can denote who's speaking, with action without interrupting the dialogue.
I will continue to disagree with you until I am blue in the face.
Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?
EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!
Yes, I'm currently sitting on two novel ideas. I intend to start formal planning in October, and I'll write one of the suckers in November.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 04, 2010, 02:22:28 am
mendonca, I've read it (read them both, for that matter, but one a little earlier than another, if you remember, and you haven't edited it? Although I haven't edited mine, either. But it may be for the better as whatever I would have done with it then would have been re-edited by me now in light of gained experience)
Kind of not a lot to say, except tense shifts, the protagonist's inner voice is a little annoying, and when you switch from "he" to "the man on the seat" it's really confusing... Ah, I can't do anything with saying negative first! Bad me!
Well, anyway, it's well written in that it kind of gives us the material world, and I like that you give us the view of common life, to kind of ground us, tell us that it's real, before something happens. I hope something happens. Is it a murder mystery, by any chance?
In other news, yesterday I stumbled on this (http://www.pathguy.com/index.htm), and decided I needed to share. In the last half-year everything I've written had to deal with death to some degree (which I realized much to my surprise yesterday). Finally, I've come upon a reliable source to verify my suspicions. Rigor mortis sets in from 2 to 6 hours after death, and the proper decomposition takes 2 days to start and then it's hardly noticeable until several weeks in! Zombies, my ass!
Anyway, it's quite probable someone else will find it useful.
Post by: mendonca on September 04, 2010, 03:48:02 am
Kind of not a lot to say, except tense shifts, the protagonist's inner voice is a little annoying, and when you switch from "he" to "the man on the seat" it's really confusing... Ah, I can't do anything with saying negative first! Bad me!
No, don't worry, this is great, totally falls in the realms of constructive criticism - Good you!
I suspected as much with the inner monologue, but I will probably continue to write them as they help me think about the state of mind of the characters - just to strip them out at the end.
Well, anyway, it's well written in that it kind of gives us the material world, and I like that you give us the view of common life, to kind of ground us, tell us that it's real, before something happens. I hope something happens. Is it a murder mystery, by any chance?
It started off as a murder mystery, but it is now a bit different, trying to be about the man's obsession with his errant wife and the deterioration of his life / mind around this event.
Post by: bjlong on September 04, 2010, 08:46:37 am
mendonca, I read your piece, and the writing definitely strikes me as good. This is both good and bad--your writing is good enough that it doesn't get in the way of the story, and, on top of that, makes some interesting little connections. On the other hand, it's definitely playing safe in this piece. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you definitely have some room to try something a little more esoteric in the piece. Take heart, though! There are definitely bright spots, like the huge donkey-thing or the description of the bar. You've got some skills, you just need to throw them at the piece in places.
As said before, the guy in the red car and the man are confusing monikers. It's probably better to just give your character a name and call him that. But if you're able to make it work, more power to you.
If I can pick one thing to harp on, though, it's that the first bit of the story doesn't hook enough. Generally, when I read the first page of a story, I'm going to be looking to get a taste of what the plot is, what sort of things to expect. Here I'm not seeing any sort of obstacles besides the man's own grief, and no goals save to get over the grief.
(Here I have to put a big disclaimer that I might not be one to talk, because I don't like this sort of fiction.)
But this in general doesn't do it for me. Having an entirely interior plot is very, very, very, very difficult to pull off, and I speak from experience here. Generally, the way to do it is to mate the interior issues with exterior obstacles, and give the protagonist something s/he must do. I'm not saying you can't pull it off, but I'm also saying an obsession with a wife that ran away might be more interesting if the man does something to try to find her, has all these crazy encounters, and then does meet the wife in a cathartic ending, or something like that. Might catch John Q Public's attention more. But the thing is, you have to tell me that there's going to be plot, it's going to be interesting, and do it subtly in the first bit of text. As it is now, I have to really connect some pieces to find a plot.
However, I do like your description of the world. It seems like a small-townish feel, in the almost-quaint way that spread-out cities often do. You called up like a thousand images from me driving on back roads, so you're definitely on the right track there. The little encounters definitely are building to a image of this guy as a generally good guy who somehow lost his wife, and we're not sure how. The fretting over little details, this helps ground the story in what limited experience I've had. In short, I'm saying that this is a solid piece, and you're definitely headed in a good direction.
What else can I say? You can tighten up some spots of the writing, such as the car-line, sure, but these aren't big issues. Go through, edit the writing, consider your plot carefully, and drop some hooks in there, and you'll have a great start to the rest of your piece.
In other news, I have something up in the library, which perhaps should get a blurb. Do I do that here, or release the blurb to the aether of space-time, and let the future time travelers retroactively change the description? Or possibly PM it to Supermikhail?
Post by: Supermikhail on September 04, 2010, 10:27:08 am
I'd prefer you posted it here (one more bump to the thread, and it might attract additional attention to your story).
Post by: bjlong on September 04, 2010, 01:41:26 pm
Peace's in Loda, thank the gods. Sure, the Hdal below us are muscling their way in, but it'll be a time afore they can declare war. The Proconcella, bless her heart, doesn't seem to want war any more. Sure, we know it's coming. Hell, Sir Renolds, the Protectorate, is leaning on some of his nobles to come up with some troops. You know how it is with them nobles. That ain't what concerns me.
Yeah, there's Garadesh's men, sure. He keeps pumping in the whores around here, takin' hard liquor and opiates up north, to the bigger cities. They'll cut your head off soon as blink, sure, but they ain't stupid--you're only in danger if you get in their way. They ain't what concerns me.
Huh? The circus? Well, I never heard of a problem from the circus. Ain't been, neither, but they seem fine enough. A little odd, maybe, but they mean well--keep sayin' somethin' about peace. They definitely ain't what concerns me.
What concerns me is the mercenaries down the road--you know, Nine Swords Tavern? Yeah, only really five of them to speak, but the name's stuck. They're out of work, and they got the look of desperate men. You know the type--hungry for somethin', lookin' ta make money 'cause they're goin' under. This peace ain't good for their business, no sir, an' they're dangerous men. You ask me, I think we oughta watch them real close. Stick 'em under a glass, like, cause they might just take down half the town when they get too desperate.
After I get through quite a bit more drafting, I'll post a longer sample than the one linked and look for readers to help me edit the thing. The genre is definitely a low fantasy epic, set in something half-Arabian, half-Southern US, and will be novel-length, so if you're interested, keep it on the radar!
Post by: Supermikhail on September 04, 2010, 01:51:47 pm
Post by: bjlong on September 04, 2010, 01:57:21 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 04, 2010, 02:08:25 pm
The part that I'm getting as vibe is high-action movie. :) I consider it a given with such a blurb, actually.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 05, 2010, 02:08:57 am
Quote
No amount of planning is ever enough. But if you don't start then no amount of planning is going to give you a finished piece of work.
Something I saw today. It seemed to be worth sharing.
EDIT: In other news, I don't have too much to do for the next few hours, so I do believe I'm going to be browsing some of the library and/or recently posted stuff in the thread and saying what I think (for whatever my opinion is worth).
Post by: Willfor on September 05, 2010, 02:34:27 am
I have 744 words so far in this new thingy ( I hope you're happy, Supermikhail >:( ) and I would have more if life wasn't a constant interruption. And yes, I have read everything about setting times for writing if I want to get it done. BITE ME. Life has been hectic (more so than usual) for me over the past few days. Time hasn't been my only enemy as I am already getting the feeling that I shouldn't even bother showing it: It's not a true show of my writing capabilities, it never will be, and I don't feel like getting criticism from it.
I feel like a guy telling a room full of art critics that I am halfway done drawing my family in crayon on a piece of construction paper. YEAH GUYS, GET EXCITED ABOUT THIS BIG PILE OF CRAP. :D
Post by: Fishbreath on September 05, 2010, 03:19:09 am
Spoiler: Untitled (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on September 05, 2010, 05:16:32 am
Seriously, Fishbreath, you should consider moving Anja and the others into space, or I don't know. Very nice scene... Although the first paragraph had me confused. I didn't know what "Both ships showed signs of battle" meant, as in "huge explosions of an ongoing battle" or, as it turned out later "gaping holes in the carcasses barely under control of their captains".
@Willfor: Wow, there's something bad going on here if a writer is refusing to have critique on his new story. What if I promise to make it absolutely constructive?
Well, about two years ago I had a period when I saw my writing so miserable and unsalvageable that I swore I wouldn't show it to anyone and write for myself because I wanted to. Well, I don't know how much good it did for me - what set the current situation in motion was my reintroduction to a writer that clicked with my psyche, I guess, Philip Dick, and that's how I was able to start writing again. But what I realize now is that in the time of crisis I didn't have the best critic - he was experiencing a crisis of his own, but with real life, almost raged at my writing, - and I probably had too high ambitions - every idea I had I wanted to develop into a huge epic novel. So...
Don't you lose it on me, ya hear me! Don't deny yourself nice critics like us :), and don't worry about length.
P.S. About setting time aside.
There is a book, Screenwriters' Masterclass (http://www.amazon.com/Screenwriters-Masterclass-Greatest-Newmarket-Filmbook/dp/1557046921), so there professional screenwriters talk about their work, and you know, one or two say that they've got regular schedule, other write almost as inspiration comes to them - one has an idea and then sits from dawn till dusk for 2 days writing it down (his stories are all almost documentaries), other mucks about all day and only in the evening finds release from procrastination; his brother writes from 9 till 2 every day.
So, basically, write when you can, no one's going to bite you. Thinking about time is procrastination in itself.
Post by: Grakelin on September 05, 2010, 06:01:53 pm
Here's the thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65404.0).
I'm open to critique and suggestions!
Post by: silverskull39 on September 05, 2010, 06:21:45 pm
Edit:Taken down to be reworked and submitted to a magazine. I'll post details if/when it's accepted/published.
Post by: Dwarf on September 06, 2010, 12:31:51 am
Post by: Fishbreath on September 06, 2010, 02:34:42 am
Post by: Supermikhail on September 06, 2010, 11:19:59 am
I think the story could bear some sectioning - just a couple of asterisks in the middle, because it kind of loses momentum going on the same wind.
Then, there is a section in the middle where I strongly suspect tense shift, but expect Fishbreath to disagree with me.
And, a couple of words feel kind of anachronistic, relative to the narrative.
Anyway, these are points for debate.
@Grakelin: Jesus Christ, where have you been hiding until now, guys? Three killers in a row on my head!
That's definitely better than the last entry, good characterization, dialogue, action... and I'm going to confess to you - I love expertly thrown in terms of a field I understand nothing in, like cards. I honestly don't have any critique to give.
Post by: silverskull39 on September 06, 2010, 11:55:01 am
Tense is one of the trickier things in this story, since I don't believe it is solidly in one tense or another, but sort of an abstract tense caught in the sword's lack of an accurate perception of time. I'm gonna have to work on portraying that better.
The whole thing kind of came at me like a whirlwind, idea wise. I just had the idea pop into my head, sat down and wrote it out in an hour or two. Been doing a little revision here and there for a couple weeks, but it hasn't changed too much from the original.
I'll have some more writing to post later on, but it's not complete enough/revised enough right now.
Unrelated note, does anyone know a good, free way to copyright your work? I know mailing it to yourself works, but does email do the same? Technically it provides a verified date and proof the work is yours...but... I'm not too sure.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 06, 2010, 12:12:53 pm
Post by: silverskull39 on September 06, 2010, 12:17:05 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 06, 2010, 12:41:08 pm
Post by: silverskull39 on September 06, 2010, 12:47:51 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on September 06, 2010, 01:26:44 pm
First is the sort you get simply by creating something. Once you have "fixed [your work] in a tangible form of expression", you have copyright on it. You're not even required to put a copyright notice on. It's good to include one anyway, though, because having a copyright notice on published copies makes it much easier to win a copyright suit.
Of course, you can't actually file a copyright suit regarding a US-originated work unless you register with the Copyright Office. That's more complicated, costs money, and is generally a bit of a pain. On the other hand, registration within five years of publication (that is, making the work available to the public, defined as people without an explicit or implicit restriction with respect to the disclosure of the material) means that your position in court is basically unassailable.
Regardless, there isn't any middle ground; the "poor man's copyright" doesn't have any legal benefit under US copyright law.
---
1. Not technically, but practically.
Post by: silverskull39 on September 06, 2010, 01:45:06 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 06, 2010, 02:14:57 pm
For future reference and current clarity: sending a copy to yourself does not in any way improve your standing. In the US, at least, there are two kinds1 of copyright.
First is the sort you get simply by creating something. Once you have "fixed [your work] in a tangible form of expression", you have copyright on it. You're not even required to put a copyright notice on. It's good to include one anyway, though, because having a copyright notice on published copies makes it much easier to win a copyright suit.
Of course, you can't actually file a copyright suit regarding a US-originated work unless you register with the Copyright Office. That's more complicated, costs money, and is generally a bit of a pain. On the other hand, registration within five years of publication (that is, making the work available to the public, defined as people without an explicit or implicit restriction with respect to the disclosure of the material) means that your position in court is basically unassailable.
Regardless, there isn't any middle ground; the "poor man's copyright" doesn't have any legal benefit under US copyright law.
---
1. Not technically, but practically.
Then how about these sites that claim that if you publish a creative work on their pages you have copyright on that work? I even have to choose between different sorts of copyright (usually GPL or somesuch) for my Scribd account.
Post by: mendonca on September 06, 2010, 04:02:59 pm
I thought, as soon as everybody in here tends to like fantasy, I would have a crack at this, for fun and practice - an opening to a story, based on the DF world.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: silverskull39 on September 06, 2010, 05:05:53 pm
Hey bjlong, thanks very much for reading my writing and giving me such feedback, I really appreciate it - it's great to see another angle and it definitely opens up my own writing to me.
I thought, as soon as everybody in here tends to like fantasy, I would have a crack at this, for fun and practice - an opening to a story, based on the DF world.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That was pretty good! The only thing I have to say aside from grammar Nazi nitpicking is that Zathrut had a rather large vocabulary for a goblin, in my opinion. It's much better than I can ever do with DF based stories. My prose tends to fall flat when it's based on something else.
Post by: Willfor on September 06, 2010, 05:46:34 pm
Spoiler: Constructs: To The City (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 06, 2010, 07:08:38 pm
Spoiler: Lemonsnout: Story of the Senator (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on September 06, 2010, 11:29:24 pm
So as long as I have proof that it's mine and I copyright it within five years of publishing, I should be fine then? Well, that's nice to know. I'm a long way off from having anything publishable that would really need that. The most I've got right now are short stories like the one above, which, if I sell it to a magazine they get rights to use it according to the terms of the agreement, but shouldn't that serve as a way to prove the material is mine as well? I don't know as much about copyrights as I should, but that's ok cus writing is just a hobby for me anyway.
So long as you register it, at least. You should be fine even without that; if you were to sell it to a magazine you grant them usage rights but (generally, in my understanding) retain your copyright.
Then how about these sites that claim that if you publish a creative work on their pages you have copyright on that work? I even have to choose between different sorts of copyright (usually GPL or somesuch) for my Scribd account.
They're simply stating the obvious--under US law, when you create a work, you have copyright on it. They're asking you about various sorts of licenses, not sorts of copyrights. Licenses determine what the public is able to do with a copyrighted, published work; under the GPL the list of things they can do is quite long (so long as any derivative works remain GPL-licensed). For licensing free creative works I tend to prefer the Creative Commons licenses.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 07, 2010, 02:56:26 am
Post by: Supermikhail on September 07, 2010, 11:43:20 am
Anyway, @mendonca: I liked it very much and cracked up at the end, although I'm not sure if the the power of dwarves is going to be explained in the further entries, or it's natural as I haven't played DF for a long time and don't know anything about the current balance. I mean it felt as if there's some ambiguity to whether the uber-dwarves are an important point, or that all dwarves are like that.
@Willfor: That's what I'm talking about. The action is so good (and it has characterization, too) I almost wept. Also, nice vignette in the title. ;) Now, criticism. I felt as if there's some disparity of the pacing between the beginning and the end, specifically where the protagonist starts telling how he (probably she?) fared after the escape. It feels like a distinctly different part, and I'm going to insist on asterisks again.
@Karnewarrior: I liked your story. It could use some proofreading, but it's well-told, and I'm interested to see how it continues. What I see as its weaknesses - the protagonists has little characterization, he could use some expression, or voiced thoughts... Or maybe you need to slow down the pace a little, hold up a little in a scene. For example, some event in the forest, to break the dynamic, and admire the surroundings.
The beginning may need some exposition. I know they say you need to start in the middle, but that's too much - it feels amateur. Start a little slower, with a bit of description. With "Senator James R. Lemonsnout was hanging with his neck through a noose on a rope, the other end of which was tied to a branch of an old oak - which served as a home to Pyrope, a witch..." Or something like that.
Also, you overuse the protagonist's name - "he" could suffice in some places. Try replacing Lemonsnout with "he", but avoid ambiguity.
Post by: bjlong on September 07, 2010, 05:36:59 pm
Hey bjlong, thanks very much for reading my writing and giving me such feedback, I really appreciate it - it's great to see another angle and it definitely opens up my own writing to me.
I thought, as soon as everybody in here tends to like fantasy, I would have a crack at this, for fun and practice - an opening to a story, based on the DF world.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Good to hear you got something from the critique! I never know if I'm being too harsh or not.
As for this story, it's got some interesting developments here! A bit unfinished, yes, but here's what I'm seeing: there is an excellent thrumming sort of build-up in the opening narration that comes to a head when the description of dwarves and goblins fighting ends so slammingly anticlimactically. The ending shows some promise, but ends up a bit out-of-nowhere, since it's not foreshadowed enough. In all, an excellent development of themes.
If you're willing to take a second look at this, then here's what I'd suggest: First, take the narrative comments by Grax back a bit--he should be fully engrossed in the story, or else we get pulled out, too. Only pull us back to show us something important. Second, emphasize the valor of the lashers. Make the reader feel like s/he wants to be in one of those squads him/herself, and show that it's important to Grax to do something in these squads. Third, even if you want to keep the dwarves incredibly amazing, give the warriors a fitting end--sure, plenty should die, but have the survivors be battle-hardened, even revered. Then we'd get Grax's inclination to steal babies much easier.
Overall, I think you've got an excellent start--almost reminds me of Beowulf. And that's a good thing.
Now, this is a different take on it than the humorous story, but I think the two are definitely compatible. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I'm sure you could find a way!
Disregard my earlier post, I think I have this somewhat presentable now. This isn't my published stuff, this is practice, and it's going to be ongoing. I am, however, not going to fix any of these up. I am putting more work into their writing from the outset rather than relying on drafts. Because, like I said, these are practice. Criticism, and comments are welcome. No blurb yet as I will leave that for later.Spoiler: Constructs: To The City (click to show/hide)
Good to hear you're dropping stuff to get critiqued! I'd recommend that you try revising at least once, say, for every three sections you write--50% of writing is revisions. The other 50% is also revisions. Just preemptive ones.
I have to say, you've got an interesting world going on here--and that hits me from the first paragraph, which is excellent. I see you've got an arc considered, and a protagonist who seems to be unique. I'm not quite sure about sympathetic, yet, which might be because I'm identifying with the players too much. But it seems like you've got all the basics in place for a solid story!
Now, here are some things I noticed: The action scene, while you give a definite sense of immediacy, seems to lack a sense of space--I lose track of where people are every now and then. If that's how it gets with the character, you might want to put a little tag to that effect in the prose. You're also telling this story in a disinterested prose, so the black humor that your character talks of occasionally falls flat--for instance, with the quip about the witch and her broom, you end up deflating the joke with your paragraphing and the following comments. If you'd like an opinion, I'd restructure it like so:
"...she wanted me to join her. I would have the honorable task to lead the forces protecting her from the players' inevitable raids in a glorious kamikaze that would save her.
I told her to go back to screwing with her broom.
I was banished.
It was both worth it and for the best. Two weeks later fifteen players got together, and lead an attack against her. The Sisters of the Ecumenical Gardens ceased to be."
I'm sure this could be tightened more, making the double-punchline crack like a whip, but you get the idea. Don't let me skim over the punchline!
Finally, you have quite a few wind-up sentences, where you're commenting on something that hasn't happened yet, or that just happened. Condense or cut these, and remember that in general, all sentences must do something, or else they are simply giving the reader time to get bored.
That said, none of these flaws are even close to damning--this sounds to me like a pretty good first draft of the first section of the story. Keep going!
Posted this on the MSPA forums, but didn't really get a lot of replies. So here it is here, for review.Spoiler: Lemonsnout: Story of the Senator (click to show/hide)
That's an excellent little story! I'd definitely agree with the characterization issue, but the dark tone of the piece definitely shines through. I especially like how the characters we are indicated we should like in an existing story come off as horrific in your story--it's a nice touch.
Now, as for other things: I'd recommend that you give Lemonsnout a vent to his feelings, so that we don't get the feeling that this is just a bunch of stuff happening to a guy. Show him scared, angry, upset, shellshocked, whatever. Just show him reacting. I'd also recommend that you spend a little time discussing the particulars of each action, and, yes, give us more description. Right now, it's like you've thrown some paint on a canvas, blocked out some shapes, then called it a day. This might work for modern painting, but not for you. I need stuff to visualize, and in a highly visual world like MSPA, you have a ton to talk about. You could even make things up willy-nilly, practically without repercussion.
All in all, I'd add a lot more description, give Lemonsnout a voice, and call this little piece done.
Post by: Little on September 07, 2010, 07:43:50 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 08, 2010, 01:51:09 am
What's the current prompt?Currently in the OP, but you have to read the quote following the prompt to get what it means. I had a couple of unrequited prompts before the current one, so maybe you can come up with something for "an island, a banana-cream cake and an outdated software". What the other one was I don't remember. Oh! Or Fishbreath's "surprise us" - write something that we don't expect, that is, with a twist.
So, choose whichever works for you. And if neither works, please explain what prompt you'd like to see.
Post by: Krelos on September 08, 2010, 02:43:47 am
So, I'll just call it
Spoiler: Jailbreak (click to show/hide)
Anything you have for input is more than welcome.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 08, 2010, 09:44:21 am
Then, I'm afraid I'll have to apologize to Fishbreath for my critique on his lavish dialogue tags - some of them are still necessary, and you could use more. Specifically this place -
Quote from: Krelos
"Ha, yes," Barden laughed, taking his sword belt from a hook by the door. "He always has been a paranoid one."On the overall pacing - it feels like it's unjustly slow towards the end, maybe during the fight you need to use some stronger, more meaty, if I may, verbs or shorten your sentences.
"Even more so now, what with that fur-devil in there."
"I don't know how much of a devil it is, but I sure don't like having it around. I hope they transfer it to Esseris soon, just having it nearby makes me nervous."
"Nervous? What's it gonna do? Cut through solid iron and come after you in your sleep?"
Barden chuckled as he finished putting his sword on and opened the door.
It's quite possible that this feeling was intensified for me by Barden shouting "Go, I'll hold him here!" I may be corrected, but from what I know of fencing, a usual duel involves only a couple of strikes, slashes or swings, unless you go the Hollywood way. So, in a couple of moments either one or the other wins, and who's holding whom? Well, it's sort of obvious later that you've gone the Hollywood way, but for me personally it's a negative moment.
And together with that, Meyers' "He's alive, but he'll have one hell of a headache tomorrow" feels non-sequitur and not really funny.
Instead, I was surprised that you didn't exploit the fact that everyone in that jail seems to be a bit sly, and people are supposed to donate money if someone dies, so I had a suspicion that Garren's death was somebody's lie to extort some money. Maybe it could occur to Barden, but it would be a false alarm.
@Fishbreath: Nice new "chapter". Hm, maybe it's been explained somewhere, but why did you decide to alternate between Anja, Rakel and Eirik?
About the commentary - I suspect that it's your becoming a better writer, because from what I've heard this thing grows if you work it out.
Edit: Carp, proofread.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 08, 2010, 12:15:14 pm
Quote from: Supermikhail
Then, I'm afraid I'll have to apologize to Fishbreat for my critique on his lavish dialogue tags
Vindication! Although I will admit that I toned it down after the first few times you mentioned it, since it was (in places) a little bit over the top, and moderation in talking fancy does lead to greater impact when I do.
Quote from: Supermikhail
@Fishbreath: Nice new "chapter". Hm, maybe it's been explained somewhere, but why did you decide to alternate between Anja, Rakel and Eirik?
About the commentary - I suspect that it's your becoming a better writer, because from what I've heard this thing grows if you work it out.
The alternation is so that none of them are out of the spotlight for more than three weeks. They'll eventually begin to interact more (massive surprise, I know!), at which point I think I'll feel more comfortable about airing chapters straight through from beginning to end.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 09, 2010, 08:30:59 am
I'd like to ask if this letter is addressed to Rakel or the reader. I can't judge if it's realistic for Rakel to not know that gangs own the city, so if this information isn't highly classified, I'd be interested to find out... Which reminds me. Rakel still doesn't have a very distinct character, does she? I mean, one part down I should be able to judge, if only remotely, whether Rakel would know the hood, but I can't.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 09, 2010, 09:36:59 am
@Fishbreath: Another new chapter?
I'd like to ask if this letter is addressed to Rakel or the reader. I can't judge if it's realistic for Rakel to not know that gangs own the city, so if this information isn't highly classified, I'd be interested to find out... Which reminds me. Rakel still doesn't have a very distinct character, does she? I mean, one part down I should be able to judge, if only remotely, whether Rakel would know the hood, but I can't.
Three new chapters, all running simultaneously.
To Rakel, though I will admit that Henrik's role thus far hasn't been anything more than Mr. Exposition. The stuff about the gangs is sort of an open secret to anyone who lives in the Riverfronts. It's true that I haven't said much about her character, but the fact that Henrik thinks he needs to remind her does shed some light on the kind of person she is. <.<
Post by: Supermikhail on September 09, 2010, 10:03:47 am
Eh, I fear that even though I don't have to tell you that it's bad having a Mr. Exposition, and having to write an expository chapter to explain a character, you are still doing it.@Fishbreath: Another new chapter?
I'd like to ask if this letter is addressed to Rakel or the reader. I can't judge if it's realistic for Rakel to not know that gangs own the city, so if this information isn't highly classified, I'd be interested to find out... Which reminds me. Rakel still doesn't have a very distinct character, does she? I mean, one part down I should be able to judge, if only remotely, whether Rakel would know the hood, but I can't.
Three new chapters, all running simultaneously.
To Rakel, though I will admit that Henrik's role thus far hasn't been anything more than Mr. Exposition. The stuff about the gangs is sort of an open secret to anyone who lives in the Riverfronts. It's true that I haven't said much about her character, but the fact that Henrik thinks he needs to remind her does shed some light on the kind of person she is. <.<
In other news, the outline of my new endeavour topped two pages, and quite fittingly, this post on outlining (http://www.gointothestory.com/2010/09/importance-of-prep-writing.html) has popped up on the screenwriting blog I'm following. In case somebody here has difficulty with outlining, as I'm having quite a kick out of it.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 09, 2010, 10:39:31 am
Henrik's role as Mr. Exposition is one that's probably actually almost over, unless I need him to be the man bursting into the room with a gun. It's extraordinarily difficult to use characters who can see the future as anything more than bit players. >.>
Post by: Supermikhail on September 09, 2010, 11:29:39 am
Post by: Fishbreath on September 09, 2010, 11:58:27 am
Jesus Christ, Fishbreath! How about an extraordinarily fascinating protagonist with the precognition gift? I wonder if you did your outlining.
The problem with a prescient protagonist is that it takes one of two things: either a willingness to make the prescience useless or ineffective (which I don't have), or a willingness to very, very carefully plan out every detail of the story and work out what the protagonist knows (which I also lack). The most I'll ever do with one is something in short-story format.
Actually, since we haven't really had any responses to the current prompt and I'm very curious to see what you come up with, here's a new one:
Write a prescient protagonist.
Post by: Willfor on September 09, 2010, 07:38:21 pm
I want to make what I posted here into a novel.
._.
Anyway, about the writing prompt, I have actually written a prescient character as more than a bit player. It works very easily when fate is malleable by those who have the gift, and not everyone with the gift is working for the protagonist.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 10, 2010, 12:26:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Willfor: I don't see how it's a problem. There's nothing bad to writing a quick outline, except that you might realize that it's a much more rad concept than your current novel, and turn that into a shorter genre. Or otherwise. Or maybe they both deserve about 40 000 words. As I see it, it's kind of easy to determine, and I'd direct you to the link on outlining I've posted before. There's a section there about a TV series writer who says that the first thing she starts writing with is marking commercial breaks. Although, that's not the best analogy. What I mean is when you've outlined, count all the major events, and multiply the number by 2 000. If what you've come up with is less than 10 000, it's a short (it can get bigger or smaller, but you don't have to fret over it so much).
@everybody: I'm open for critique on my masterpiece. I know of a couple of issues, but I don't know how to amend them, so constructive, please.
@fishbreath: What's amazing to me is that the rough plot came to me about 5 minutes after I read your reply. And then I sat for about 3 hours (including Google research) typing, and couldn't tear myself off. I still have to determine what's the cause of my slowness (at least I think it's kind of slow), but at least I know what's the reason for my sleeping through my alarm every time - too much free creative spirit!
Post by: mendonca on September 10, 2010, 01:51:41 am
I liked the story. I particularly enjoyed the part when Barden was left in the cell, the build up to suspense got me, and I could really see the floor come alight when he sparked the oil on the floor.
@Supermikhail
Again, I really liked this. I was in the shop with those two. I'm not sure what critique I can personally offer as I did genuinely enjoy the writing and the 'arc'of the little story. There are a few (very) minor language things that seem a little 'off' throughout the piece (or maybe I personally would have just done it differently?) and if I had written the piece I perhaps would have dwelled on the interior of the shop a bit near the start, slowed the pace right down (even more) as Moretti and Quay Li were figuring each other out, but apart from that (which of course, you can take or leave) I can't offer any more, it was great.
@ bjlong
Thanks ... your critique is very insightful. I enjoy reading it - and also on reflection more often than not agree with you.
I am going to take the Grax story on a bit, have a play about with the genre and have the naive Goblin going on his trip North to see the Dwarves - Grax also finds out there is a recent history of Dwarven settlement in his own Dark Fortress and becomes awed / obsessed with the creatures.
The reason for the Dwarves toughness is probably due to Adamantine Armour, but not sure how this can come out later (maybe engravings?), because I think I intend the Dwarf Fortress to be overcome by Demons when Grax finally gets there, with his small gang of companions he picks up on the way. Perhaps the longer bit of the story is that he helps the Dwarves reclaim, but I'm not sure why he would be motivated to do that.
One encounter I have planned is an encounter with a wizard (obviously no magic though) who is trying to dig a well of misery by softening the ground with his tears and digging, but as he is in the Joyous Wilds of a unicorn-riddled forest, the only tears he can muster are ones of happiness. He'll probably try and fill it with Demon's Piss or something.
Post by: Krelos on September 10, 2010, 03:27:28 am
Thanks for the input, you pointed out a few things I hadn't thought about. I definitely have a tendency to jump straight to action.
Though I must say, I'm not sure what you mean about the Hollywood swordfighting, since it takes no more than 10 seconds for Barden to be defeated the first time. I mean, I know what you're saying, Hollywood likes long duels, but I'm not sure I could have gotten Barden out of the way much faster without pretty much killing him instantly... maybe.
The whole "hell of a headache tomorrow" thing, wasn't meant to be funny, so that was surprising to see you say. Though, giving it more thought, it didn't really make sense for him to say that, given the situation. And for that matter, it really didn't make sense for Barden to have ordered Meyers to go for help at all since the two of them should have felt confident in taking the one enemy and... yeah.
Turns out the whole piece is more flawed than I thought. ;D Ahh practice makes perfect.
I'm not sure if its considered 'proper' to reply to a critique like this. I just like to discuss everything that isn't immediately clear.
You give good advice, thanks!
Now for my amateur critique of your precog short!
I thought it was quite good, and don't really have much to add. I'd agree with mendonca in that more of a look around the environment would have been an improvement, and there were a couple places where I found it not so easy to tell who was talking. Also, there was a place near the end where the phraseology felt strange "The smile wearing which he intended to greet his long-time rival" but I get the feeling that it's just a word omission error.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 10, 2010, 04:08:53 am
Whereas... Well, thanks for feedback, mendonca and Krelos, although I'm a bit stumped as to how to use it.
The problem with exposition is that the shop is where Mr. Quay spends every day, and as the narrative is his 3rd-personal, then it would be awkward for him to describe his surroundings.
Then, dialogue. I've run myself into a corner with my perfectionism, it seems. I just don't feel that any more dialogue tags can go in there. If someone could point out to me where exactly there is ambiguity to who is speaking, I'd be very grateful.
However, I edited it slightly (just in two points), and that phrase Krelos pointed out, well, originally it was this way - "The smile with which he intended to greet..." but then I thought that, when you're on the phone, the person you're talking to kind of can't see your face, and hastily edited it to something that made sense to me in a half-asleep state. Re-edited now to what makes sense to a person fully awake.
With that said, eagerly awaiting Fishbreath. I feel like I can take on another prompt. 8)
Post by: Fishbreath on September 10, 2010, 12:11:21 pm
I do intend to have something written for the current prompt; I might try and hammer something out in the very near future. Slightly longer-term, I think I'm going to expand on the last bit I posted here; being a bit of a naval history buff, my aim with the whole universe was to support a space navy which can be related to my all my favorite eras and tactics, and I think I'd like to show it off some more. I'll probably end up putting them here when I finish them and then running them at Many Words near Christmas, when my Lägraltvärld buffer will be nearly empty and I'll need some time to rebuild it. Hopefully I can pick all your brains to make it better than it would be otherwise. :P
@Supermikhail: There's nothing wrong with being descriptive in third-person. The metaphor that just hit me is video games: third-person can be like, say, Gears of War, where the perspective is basically first-person with different pronouns, or like Baldur's Gate 2, where the focus is much further back, or somewhere in between. The important thing is that you can move back and forth along the scale if you don't do so too often or too jarringly—if you've focused on one character for the whole of a novel, and then suddenly change at the very end, people might get angry (or might regard it as a stunning use of literary device, but you can never predict critics), but if you're momentarily pulling the camera back, as it were, to describe a setting, I don't think you'll hear many complaints. It's even easier at the beginning of a piece, since there aren't really any reader expectations.
Post by: bjlong on September 12, 2010, 11:30:30 pm
Spoiler: Shorter than it looks (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on September 13, 2010, 11:54:57 am
Oh, I see where you were going! But you didn't get there. It's all confusing, and the fact that you switch italics on and off seemingly at random doesn't help. If you only did precognitions (and all precognitions) in italics, that would be great help. And the dashes could separate precognition from reality.
And, now that I comprehend, it doesn't seem so surreal. Sad.
You know what, on the other hand, if you got rid of dashes and italics, it could probably stay surreal, also edit some confusion, and it'll be gold. Right now it's a nice effort.
Confusion: What was Tim's grand plan if Mrs Johnson ditched him? What did Tim do with his dogs and what did his gangs have to do with it?
Post by: bjlong on September 13, 2010, 12:12:05 pm
As for the confusion, I'm not 100% sure what Tim's grand plan was, but it involves him getting out. That's all I really cared to plan out. Dogs is an admittedly confusing figure of speech for toughs or brutes or whatever. I should change that. The flashforward you're referring to is supposed to show retaliation against Emily by the gangs.
I might actually expand this into a full short, if I can figure a few things out about Tim's plans, his motivations, and maybe a few more characters. As it is, it's a bit sparse on characters.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 15, 2010, 10:54:27 am
Spoiler: "Chains Of Loss", a sci-fi/fantasy serial novel by Talanic (click to show/hide)
Last time, the author wanted to publish his novel, but now is approaching it differently. That is, posting his novel on the Internet not to get it published, but to get noticed by a publisher. It seems to be a very good approach unless you consider your novel the ultimate pinnacle of your procrastinating career. ;)
Of course, a novel is required first, and I wonder if there is a practice of sharing and criticising novel outlines. Because, you know, it's much handier to correct logic blind spots when outlining. Well, when many writers work on a series they do share ideas and critique outlines, but with an aspiring writer it's different. The writer in question is me. So, what do you think about criticising an outline?
Post by: Fishbreath on September 15, 2010, 10:55:00 am
Spoiler: On Second Thought (click to show/hide)
In the spirit of prompts, I wrote this over the course of about 30 minutes. There are probably some glaring errors.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 15, 2010, 11:17:13 am
Interestingly enough, there's an event in my life going on right about now that's connected to ESP. I can't recall what started it, but there's a girl that's on the same course as I am. She claims to have had a paranormal experience during a previous term. A poltergeist would come in the night, walking noises and all, and press on her chest. I sort of lightly made fun of her, but I'm not really a skeptic or non-skeptic, I just read a scientific book on the research into paranormal, sponsored by the US government, and the author sort of convinced me that there's something out there.
Ah, I remember, the girl had an unpleasant lab assignment, and the apparatus which she was supposed to use, broke right before she was going to start. The technicians couldn't do anything. Anyway, I sent her a link to test her ESP, hopefully, she's received it and tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I'll know if I should wear a lead cap (you know, my great novel ideas and all).
Oh, and I had a heart shape appear on the surface of ammonia nitrate I synthesized that day. I can only think someone brought a poltergeist to the lab.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 16, 2010, 11:14:23 am
1) Bump us back above those [epithet]s at the Engravers Guild
2) Promote irregularity and chaos in your day to day lives as they pertain to this thread, thereby forcing you to check back at random-ish times to see if anything new is going on
3) Give myself an excuse to wax loquacious about the direction this thread might think about taking in the near future
Prompt (inspired somewhat by bjlong's response to the last one):
Write about one event from the points of view of multiple characters. Bonus points for larger numbers of points of view.
Waxing loquacious:
I think I said something about this earlier on in the thread, but it strikes me as though it'll be very difficult to keep up the momentum we started with if we don't do something beyond prompts (which are fun, but time-consuming, and, for all I said up above the prompt, difficult to get into unless there's a regular schedule). Since we can't thrive following the post-your-current-sketches model (unless a lot more of us show up), I propose we shift gears. Up until now we've mostly spend our effort talking about specific pieces of each others' work; let's instead go meta and talk about writing as a craft.
So, one topic in particular has been weighing on my mind of late, and that one's worldbuilding. How much of it do you do before you start writing stories? Is there such a thing as too much? Is there such a thing as too little?
I guess I'll answer those myself first. Honestly, I'm probably more of a worldbuilder than a writer: I very much enjoy the challenge of putting together a bunch of little ideas into an internally consistent world. I tend to go about turning them into stories in two different ways, for which I have examples: Lägraltvärld, the setting of Many Words, is probably the world I've turned from idea into setting most efficiently. It started as a list of the mages' guilds I came up with as an exercise to see how far I could plausibly subdivide things while still remaining identifiably cliched, and grew from that after I thought to myself, "I wonder if this would be better with faux-Viking names." From there it turned into a setting for my homebrew RPG rules system[1], and after that campaign I thought to myself, "I like this world, and I think I can make it more distinct than it is now." At that point I started writing the stuff going up now at Many Words, and that's about that.
Then there's Nexus, from which the war-in-space short came. That's been something less of a success. I started thinking about that world six or seven years ago, and the only element that's still recognizable is names of planets (which are beginning to look increasingly out of place, but I don't like to change the names of things). It settled to something near its current form two or three years ago, and despite being the deepest of the worlds I've built so far[2] I haven't really produced any great length of story from it. I can't say exactly why, although I think it may have to do with the fact that I want to get all the niggling little details about travel times and detection ranges and the like right before I make plot points out of them, and that takes time.
There's also Wann Tsir, which is (at the moment) a venue for a constructed language and little else. Eventually I want to post about that, but I need to work out the phonology first.
Anyway, I'd say there's certainly such a thing as too little worldbuilding, particularly if you're trying to write something of reasonable length. It might just be me, though, since I tend to let my stories grow organically—Many Words is only planned in the very broadest of strokes more than a chapter or two ahead—and having a lattice for them to grow on makes it much, much easier. Despite the fact that I'm an unrepentant over-worldbuilder, I think there's such a thing as too much, too; Nexus is one of those times when I would have been better served by simply writing stories and letting the details follow from that, and I have the feeling Wann Tsir will end up that way too. C'est la vie.
So there's me babbling for a little while. What do all of you think?
---
[1] Which turned out to be barely playable due to all the dice involved, and only failed to be unplayable because I was able to make things up on the fly.
[2] There's a list of warships by name, hull number, and commissioning date, detailed technical statistics for one class of warship with two others on the way, and detailed histories for one and a half wars rattling around on my hard drive. I'm kind of hung up at the moment on a question of mathematics and physics; I'm trying to figure out at what range a starship is detectable by infrared detectors, and it's bothersomely difficult for me with my lack of physics background. >.>
Post by: Supermikhail on September 16, 2010, 11:49:38 am
At some point in the future I'll have to write an action scene - like fight scene, with swords and guns. And I don't know how and if I'm going to accomplish that with any grace.
I firmly believe that not enough worldbuilding may leave you quite heavily (even disastrously stumped) somewhere along the road, because of physical impossibility of some event.
Also, visit this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=50068.0) (especially a couple of latter pages) for a sample of my (not only) worldbuilding efforts.
The girl about whom I wrote in my previous post turned out to be not an ESP to any measurable extent. Disappointing and relieving.
Many Words definitely could use some tension, nothing's happened for four issues already. Although, speaking of world building, I must commend Fishbreath on naming of institutions and terms - if nothing else, they definitely give the world a serious, living feel.
On that note, I feel that I'm finally on the verge of obtaining the holy grail of writing - I looked carefully at the best works I could find around me and found a certain relationship - the first page always contains dialogue. What's more, I'm pretty certain that, if measured, the ratio and distance among the narrative and the dialogue would be in some approximate numerical relationship. So, what I'm saying is that a good work of fiction uses changing pace.
Finally, back to worldbuilding. I haven't really been able to keep on developing worlds, they usually just have a few cool ideas, and I'd say that the story has always been more important for me, but probably I'm just unorganized.
Anyway, nice prompt, Fishbreath, and thanks for bumping. :)
Post by: Supermikhail on September 17, 2010, 09:14:33 am
I decided that best source of inspiration is personal example. So, look guys, what an awesome poem I've made!
"There once was a man who died.
He didn't leave children behind.
Nevertheless other people
Believed he was their sire.
They wore their belief like a cross.
They wore crosses to show their beliefs.
They killed in the name of their faith.
They suffered and said they were blessed.
As long as they had their cross
They'd not have the fear of death.
They knew not if they had a way
But called their ignorance bliss.
I am an atheist. - Why?
I'm not going to tell you because
I don't want to foul your mood."
I have also come up with an idea for a reply to the prompt, so if I manage to cramp it into the today's reply schedule, I'll post that, too.
Post by: bjlong on September 17, 2010, 01:52:51 pm
I like it! The main precog conflict, in my mind, is one between destiny and free will. You successfully treaded the line--the protagonist was slapped down for trying to bash his way through destiny, and then decided instead to try avoiding the fight. It's equally possible that he succeeded or didn't, and that's what makes the plot beautiful.
However, I have to agree with Supermikhail--you don't gain anything by excising a clear narrative voice. The only other thing is the question of why you have the diviner prove his status--are diviners not well known? Are they not trusted? The audience will just accept the fact of him being a diviner without the intermediate steps when he dodges the drink.
In any case, this is a very good flash. I'd have to do a close reading to find more stuff to polish.
As for your questions about worldbuilding, I usually start writing as soon as I have a general idea of the setting--the tech level, the feel, the main features. If there's a feature that requires rules (i.e, a magic system or a computer program), then I'll have to write the rules before I write too much about that feature. But generally, I'm more concerned with pen hitting paper early and often, and I'll edit the details later, mostly to make the details fit the plot, which is probably a bad habit. But so far, I've been able to make things consistent, if only because I know a lot about the types of settings I like to write about. I do try to think about world-building questions, though, especially when I've got spare time away from <WRITING IMPLEMENT>.
Also, how did my prompt piece sorta-inspire you for the current prompt? I must know.
Supermikhail:
So, for action scenes, I find that the best ones have a clear sense of what's going on at the time, who's fighting, and what the stakes are. If the reader is confused about any of those, it's generally not an effective fight. If you've got a good sense of what is happening spatially, that'll help a lot.
As for your poem, I have to preface this with some personal business--I'm a Christian, so I was kinda offended by the poem. That's not bad unless you decide that you want a poem that doesn't offend people. I'll try to keep the writing and the personal stuff separate.
First, you're writing in something much like free verse. However, you end up using iambic trimeter in a few lines, pretty regularly, which gives this incredibly jarring contrast--like a nursery rhyme thrown into people talking about the Middle East. This might be useful if you backed up the tension with some kind of ironic call to a nursery rhyme, but otherwise it keeps you from developing a good rhythm.
Second, you verge on the banal several times, and completely cross over with the lines "They wore their belief like a cross/They wore crosses to show their beliefs." You say things with merit, sure, but you take a dictitative mode of saying these things, instead of putting them in verse form, and then on top of that, the things you say come across as if they don't have nuance. For poems, you have to tickle people's brains immediately--your first line has to start building up to a conclusion, start throwing interesting ideas and pieces of language down.
Finally, I should talk a bit about the structure of your poem. Your first stanza is pretty good, though the final line is a bit jarring, which I'm not too sure is effective. It sets up the action for later in the poem, so it's good. The second and third stanzas are where you need to start using the drama to throw around interesting tidbits, but you start losing the sense of drama, I think. Your final stanza, where we get the cathartic end, performs its job admirably. I suppose I can't tell if this is not enough drama for your poem, but I definitely feel like you could have a steeper arc, make some more incisive and insightful claims.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 17, 2010, 03:01:52 pm
1. I don't really have a reason (or an excuse, to be a little more honest) for the way it was written, beyond that it started that way. By the time I got to the first interlude, I realized I probably should've done it differently, but I had a little bit of investment already, and I think that throwing out work is against the spirit of a writing prompt.
2. Re: proving it. It doesn't come across here quite as well as I'd like it to, but the gimmick of diviners is that, by and large, they're huge jerks (which I think is a perfectly reasonable response to being able to see the future). For that reason people tend to regard people claiming to be diviners suspiciously, and a simple demonstration is an effective and appropriately obnoxious method of proof.
That's not the whole story, though, since some of the diviners with stronger moral centers end up becoming as much paragons of upstanding citizenship as their colleagues are paragons of mischief and vice, but that's a piece for another prompt, I think. >.>
3. Re: worldbuilding. Details to fit the plot isn't a particularly bad habit, I wouldn't say, as long as you don't contradict yourself about important things. That may be the largely-unplanned serial writing talking, though; I would say it's probably not quite as healthy if you're thinking things through long-term.
Certainly, though, it's better than my habit of only coming up with rules when necessary. Pretty much everything I go into detail about in Many Words was previously only a collection of ideas bouncing around in my head; that includes magic, or at least every part of it I didn't need to worry about when writing the RPG rules. That turns out to be more than I'd thought, since given my choice of characters the workings of magic are as important as its results. Oops again.
4. Re: inspiration. The dueling characters were what did it; I kind of wondered what it would be like if we were to dive into the minds of the two main players, and from there I wondered what we'd produce if I asked us to do something similar.
Post by: Krelos on September 17, 2010, 06:07:34 pm
I'm planning multiple novels all based in the same world and in a few different (possibly 4) time periods.
I currently have more than 10000 years of history with detail increasing as it grows more recent, 10-20 nations (depending how you define 'nation') with varying governments and religious organizations, magic system with 4 different kinds of users, almost 20 made up plants and animals with details and description, 6+ different sentient races, 3 immortal villains, 12 semi-deities, 5 continents with half finished maps (only the map of the story area is near-done) and more than 100 named places and people.
I've been working on it for about 6 months in solid worldbuilding mode, though I did finish a 12000 word short story last month as well. I'm almost to the place where I'm going to start on 'solid' outlining (as solid as an outline can be..) and beginning the real writing of books.
Before I do that I'm planning another short story which will probably turn out about as long as the last one, I hope, at least.
I'm sure I'm not done adding more to the world, ideas keep coming so I'll keep adding, so long as they are compatible with what I have already. Worldbuilding for me is very freeing, the more I know about the world the easier it is to just write the story and not worry about what should be happening, cause I've already thought about that and know what should be happening. Worldbuilding makes it easier (for me) to make the world seem real. It also helps me to keep from contradicting myself or breaking the rules of the world I'm writing in.
The link to the fantasy writing rants on the first page of this thread has been very helpful. Most of what she says I knew already, but I've improved several things based on what she has to say.
I think I may do a story for the latest prompt, though I think for the setting I'm picturing, four is the most viewpoints I can drum up.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 18, 2010, 02:34:25 am
Disclaimer: the current reply was written deep in the night, precariously on the verge of sleep.
Awesome, bjlong! I didn't even know poetry can receive such detailed critique. And, obviously, it's a lazy poem, I just thought that a Writers Guild could use more writing, so I picked a random thought off my mind and tried my best to make up some writing (also, I'm currently reading a book full of quite awesome poems, that's another inspiration). Well, and it's apparent that I'm an atheist, here I'll have to apologize for my unwitting offence, because, to say frankly, the poem was not supposed to be offensive. The main thought, from which everything started, is contained in the last stanza - it's my atheistic realization that all in all, our life amounts only to the fact that someday we're going to die, and Christians and other people believing in afterlife, are sort of in a better position. When you believe otherwise, and also not from the childhood (being a convert), there's always a sad side to your existence... Uh, I'm rambling off. More main thought is that religion is great and no one should try to take it away from people, it's great comfort, unless it requires human sacrifice.
Enough, I've fulfilled my quota of theology talk.
So I slapped this poem together, tried to make it blank verse, and only later realized that some lines rhyme. The idea was to produce writing to liven up the thread, and ideally I'd like to make it regular (one poem a day) and hopefully I'll get better at it. Although, with this approach I risque to come up with some more unwitting offence, just because when it's poetry, emotions hard to control are involved.
Edit: Also, I separated it into verses wrong in the first stanza.
...so it may not relieve any offense from that poem
My prompt reply, which may be complete BS, also I wish I made my point clearer.
Spoiler: 4 (!) viewpoints (click to show/hide)
Post by: bjlong on September 18, 2010, 08:03:26 pm
I will critique your post later, Supermikhail. And I see where you're coming from, in terms of religion. If you want to work on the poem more, the thing that offended me the most was probably a sense of condescension I got, but no worries.
Spoiler: Man walks into manhole. Details at 8. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Little on September 19, 2010, 12:03:09 am
Spoiler: Peace and War (click to show/hide)
Edit: Spotted a comma where there shouldn't have been one! :o
Post by: Supermikhail on September 19, 2010, 07:55:05 am
Little, nice, too. But I've got a piece of advice that may be very subjective, but on the other may be useful. Basically, when I was reading this piece I was annoyed by the fact that everything had an opinion, it seemed. Like, the grass thought Jonal was cool and brave, while the stones turned their backs on the traitor. I think the problem here is that you put your author opinion where no one expects it and, excuse me, needs it. It's not explicitly put into the heads and the mouths of the characters, but you don't say that it's yours, so it, I don't know, sounds like cold war propaganda, or a letter of an angry nerd on Youtube to the unjust world. Or simply amateur. I'd work on adjectives.
While we're on the topic of multiple viewpoints, I'd like to express an opinion that applying this term to a micro story is cheating. I mean that it's not a great achievement. The difficulty with multiple viewpoints, I think, is to do it so nicely that the reader's immersion is not broken, and it's kind of hard to speak of immersion when the reader completes the story in five minutes tops.
Afterthought: bjlong, I don't think I'm going to work on that poem anymore - rather I would... FORGE AHEAD. But I'd like to reiterate my great thanks for your criticism.
Edit: Little, would you share a link to that other guild?
Edit edit: Updated the OP and holy waters is it huge!
Post by: Supermikhail on September 19, 2010, 12:56:08 pm
So I decided to look at poetry more closely. Of course, by "look" I mean "abuse Google". So, some of the top hits were
This site with a weird title (http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/), its highlights being many forms of poetry collected, described and taught neatly in one place. Especially, the ballade, my doom.
Poetry writing: 10 tips (http://jerz.setonhill.edu/writing/creative/Poetry/tips.htm), my favourite currently being #9, that says "Rhyme with Extreme Caution" and "beginners [should] stick to free verse". #10 is a runner-up, and says "Revise, revise, revise."
Post by: Fishbreath on September 19, 2010, 01:27:26 pm
/thinkingahead!
And now, back to writing flavor text for the next version of my RPG rules system. Hopefully I've learned some lessons from the first one. <.<
Post by: Supermikhail on September 19, 2010, 01:43:28 pm
Done, and the OP immediately stretched by the new links. ::) I should have really thought about reserving a few more posts, for links and trivia.
Post by: Little on September 19, 2010, 03:09:43 pm
Like, the grass thought Jonal was cool and brave, while the stones turned their backs on the traitor. I think the problem here is that you put your author opinion where no one expects it and, excuse me, needs it. It's not explicitly put into the heads and the mouths of the characters, but you don't say that it's yours, so it, I don't know, sounds like cold war propaganda, or a letter of an angry nerd on Youtube to the unjust world. Or simply amateur. I'd work on adjectives.
Edit: Little, would you share a link to that other guild?
I'm somewhat confused as to what you're trying to point out in the quote. Could you highlight an example? :)
Also, are you saying I include too many adjectives, too few, or need to find better ones?
Edit: Little, would you share a link to that other guild?
The other guild is only just starting off, and it only has one submission so far, but here's a link (http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=17445.0).
Post by: Krelos on September 20, 2010, 02:21:25 am
But here it is, my five viewpoint prompt story.
Based around a very important event in the history of my world.
I really don't know if I like how it turned out. :-\
Spoiler: "Vylena's End" (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on September 20, 2010, 01:34:49 pm
Now,
<...>Massive tubes connected to a now-silent 1)architecture of death were his target tonight, and this was a crucial step in the war. The artillery he was focusing had fired a nearly unimaginable distance this afternoon, smashing into Zapatista jungle fortresses identified by Bosnian automated satellites. The People's State of America had declared a total war on 2)‘all those who fight the stable status quo' and Jonal 3)would be damned if he allowed the fascists to win. A chip embedded in his binoculars would send a signal to an illegal satellite operating just above the atmosphere, half a dozen rods crammed with high-density explosive waiting to be launched by his command. 4)The girl he had loved<...>
The guards, 5)a mere hundred feet from him, were looking bored and smoking black-market cigarettes. The detail the binoculars provided was amazing; he could see the brand of crappy French cigarettes they were smoking. Four of the guards were dragging out a battered table and four stools that looked like they had been through the 6)Russian-Chechnya Wars
<...>A thousand kilometres above 7)the dirty revolutionary<...>
1) Who is calling it that? It appears to me that it's you. Then why don't you say so somewhere? Or say that it's the character. It feels like the narrative itself is trying to force its opinion on us, which I, for example, don't like. Provide me with reasons to hate this building, instead of saying so without any basis except that you think this story should be about bad government, misguided revolutionaries and deceived soldiers. And not #4.
2) That's a dumb thing to say for any realistic government, as opposed to a government in enemy propaganda. Again, the narrative forcing its opinion.
3) Damned by whom? It appears that there's a quite emotional line from a character spoken for him by air or something. Like, strong emotions just floating around... Well, it may be just sloppily put, but it adds to the overall impression.
4) That's an unjustified story-or-something-hole-plug. There's not much Jonal's characterisation to speak of, and you throw in his heroically deceased girlfriend just to make the enemies look like total assholes. What am I supposed to make of her? That she was just dumb to be doing political graffiti in a city on the verge of civil war? With children? Maybe if it wasn't so blunt it could do, but not this way.
5) Just a side-note. I don't think that a hundred feet is such a great distance to make out a cigarette brand, even without binoculars, or even with crappy ones. It might be a problem with distance, or it might be that this passage has no meaningful place in the narrative.
6) Feels like thrown in, I don't know, for the coolness of it. Why should it be Chechnya, if we aren't given any definite reference to the time it's happening? Is it the Russian-Chechnya Wars in 2189? If so, how are we supposed to know what surviving furniture looks like? And if we're not supposed, then why don't a character say this line explicitly?
7) According to whose opinion is the revolutionary dirty? The satellite's? Or if it's about the physical dirt then it's an awkward way to put it.
That should be enough. I've fulfilled my today's quota of being a harsh critic. Hope that my reply has been constructive. ::)
@Krelos: Very good first part, very punchy, if I may, sucked me in right away, and had I not been so tired after a traffic jam, it would have carried me through the piece in one sitting. Well, I finished it, but after a break.
However, the break didn't help my brains, apparently, because I had a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. I think it's one of those stories that could use one viewpoint fewer. The last part was especially confusing. A seemingly simple fantasy war story turned a literary mystery about figuring out which character is on which side. :-\
I've got a linguistic question. Is the language authentic and native? I believe "Sojesal Loro" means something. Possibly a title (maybe just a name), but I'm curious.
Post by: Krelos on September 20, 2010, 06:58:54 pm
Of course, I used that term in the story of Vylena, instead of the one I meant to use, Sejisec, which is the Evari word closely meaning "Regent Master" who rules over an appointed province.
You're definitely right about the viewpoints though, I think normally I would have returned to Sarot the Huslal pilot at the end, instead of going on to the 5th view.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 22, 2010, 05:49:01 am
Fishbreath, after the new update, I've come up with some more advice. I think that you might be approaching your story in a too documentary style - this council's been going on... like in real life, and I don't think many people like to read real council or senate, for example, meetings' transcripts. And while all the little details add to believability, they subtract greatly from the number of interested readers.
Time for another poetic "masterpiece".
Why make something if nothing endures? -
You can lose everything in an instant.
They say “Aren’t the moments of brightness,
And the goodness born by your doing
Worth it?"
They just lie, and may be unknowing.
They just offer a consolation
To have something to keep us from thinking
Of our place on this pointless journey.
But I want no consolation,
No more hide’n’seek playing with Reason.
The truth!
You can lose everything in an instant.
They say “Aren’t the moments of brightness,
And the goodness born by your doing
Worth it?"
They just lie, and may be unknowing.
They just offer a consolation
To have something to keep us from thinking
Of our place on this pointless journey.
But I want no consolation,
No more hide’n’seek playing with Reason.
The truth!
May be continued.
Post by: Fishbreath on September 22, 2010, 07:32:15 am
Fishbreath, after the new update, I've come up with some more advice. I think that you might be approaching your story in a too documentary style - this council's been going on... like in real life, and I don't think many people like to read real council or senate, for example, meetings' transcripts. And while all the little details add to believability, they subtract greatly from the number of interested readers.
This is fair. On the other hand, I submit that if I were to have action (as opposed to talking (as opposed to stalling for time)) in every single entry, it would sound really forced when I put it all together at the end.
Post by: Vector on September 24, 2010, 01:38:59 am
Prompt: Go out into the world somewhere and describe the setting around you. Do not allow your own perspective to intrude in the writing at any point. This is an ultimate exercise in showing, rather than telling. So: no simile, no metaphor, no comparisons, no poetic/flowery language, and no personification or use of any other author-intrusive literary device.
Here is mine... note that I screwed up a couple of times, but I left it anyway.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: mendonca on September 24, 2010, 02:54:10 am
It is interesting that you can present things on a very simple factual basis, but with the structure / development / choice of words it can still appear somewhat poetic.
highlights (for me):
'large and square and American'
'the white arrows still offer direction'
Probably because they suggest a different meaning in addition to the purely factual one.
Post by: Vector on September 24, 2010, 02:57:16 am
Vector ... I like that a lot.
It is interesting that you can present things on a very simple factual basis, but with the structure / development / choice of words it can still appear somewhat poetic.
highlights (for me):
'large and square and American'
'the white arrows still offer direction'
Probably because they suggest a different meaning in addition to the purely factual one.
Hey, thanks so much! That was exactly the effect I was going for--I was trying to see how much "phantom-information" I could hide under a factual description. I'll treasure your comments =)
Post by: Aqizzar on September 24, 2010, 04:08:48 am
I guess the important thing is that the style achieved the effect you wanted, which is the whole point of a writing style. There's only so much to say about a few lines, but it stands on its own for what it is.
Post by: Vector on September 24, 2010, 12:17:28 pm
The first thing I think to say is, it's not what I would write. That seems like an egotistical thing to say, but what caught my eye was the repeated words without significantly repeated structure, which is something that just sticks in my craw for some reason. And yeah, the word choice and mechanical descriptions paint a nice scene, but that's what it felt like to me - a scene, like from a stage-plan. I'm probably just too picky; my own writing turns into overwrought drivel in a matter of sentences, even when I'm not trying to.
I guess the important thing is that the style achieved the effect you wanted, which is the whole point of a writing style. There's only so much to say about a few lines, but it stands on its own for what it is.
Sorry, man, but... that was the assignment. I don't normally write like this, either =/ In this case, "success" was being able to take a mechanical description and make it pejorative or positive. "Failure" was inserting one's own biases into the writing clearly--i.e., making oneself the speaking character.
For example, the reason why Smiling Girl looked up was because I was leaning on the railing above her, staring down. It might've been more interesting to provide the contrast between myself and her, just as the new cars are contrasted with the dilapidated lot--but no, I wasn't allowed to. Similarly, I would've loved to have gone on a big long rant about how we maintain our personal property and worry about how we appear as individuals but don't want to fork out the cash to keep the community college parking lot maintained. Would've loved to rant more about how the stars have gone out and the wind doesn't smell like trees anymore. Or distort the girl's appearance a bit more, because she scared the crap out of me and I would've loved to have extended the experience to the audience. Seriously, who goes grinning down the street like that?
But no. No angry liberal rants. Just had to hint at what I, personally saw via restriction of imagery and so on.
Well, anyway. Hope to post something that pleases both of us more in the future ^_^;;
Post by: bjlong on September 24, 2010, 06:55:58 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on September 25, 2010, 02:04:15 am
Been busy like hell, and not the least with this thing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65334.msg1592965#msg1592965), which took me about 6 hours (including breaks) yesterday. So I won't have anything to show for the prompt in the near future.
Now, Vector. First, same as mendonca has said. I like it very much for being factual but managing to have a structure/development, although at the poetic choice of words I was somewhat confused, because they appeared to me to bear some opinion.
Second. On the whole idea. I can see why it would be an interesting experiment for a writer. But I don't exactly see what value it may have for actual writing that (s)he could show for her/himself. One of the most important parts of stories is the writer's opinion. It's one of the things that keeps us with the narrative after we've already read the story. And, actually, it's one of the things that keeps us in the narrative while we're reading. Emotion that keeps our brains interested. And a writer that chooses a factual approach for his/her story, especially if it's a longer one, steps on an extremely slippery slope. Also, on the matter of length. It's a nice thing with prompts that length doesn't matter, but could you or anyone here write something more weighty, a story of 1000-2000 words, in a factual manner, so that we could evaluate whether a factual story is a real thing, or a myth. Hopefully, I'll give it a go myself sometime.
Also, Aqizzar has sunglasses and to write something for this thread because I don't believe him. :P
Post by: Vector on September 25, 2010, 02:28:21 am
Second. On the whole idea. I can see why it would be an interesting experiment for a writer. But I don't exactly see what value it may have for actual writing that (s)he could show for her/himself. One of the most important parts of stories is the writer's opinion. It's one of the things that keeps us with the narrative after we've already read the story. And, actually, it's one of the things that keeps us in the narrative while we're reading. Emotion that keeps our brains interested. And a writer that chooses a factual approach for his/her story, especially if it's a longer one, steps on an extremely slippery slope. Also, on the matter of length. It's a nice thing with prompts that length doesn't matter, but could you or anyone here write something more weighty, a story of 1000-2000 words, in a factual manner, so that we could evaluate whether a factual story is a real thing, or a myth. Hopefully, I'll give it a go myself sometime.
The general purpose, as far as I can tell, is to gain control over one's own voice. That way, you can figure out what part of your writing is the character, and what part of it is you; you can also discover exactly how much of your own self-inserted descriptors are unnecessary to follow the action. Furthermore, it helps unearth your biases, so that you gain a better sense of which agendas you're pushing, how, and where.
So, I'm not suggesting that people write a giant story. I'm just suggesting that they try to write a 500-word or so scene from what they find around them, in an exercise in describing without interpreting. I personally found that the benefit to the rest of my voiced writing was substantial.
PS:
Quote from: Wikipedia
The third-person objective is preferred in most pieces that are deliberately trying to take a neutral or unbiased view, like in many newspaper articles. It is also called the third-person dramatic, because the narrator (like the audience of a drama) is neutral and ineffective toward the progression of the plot — merely an uninvolved onlooker. It was also used around the mid-twentieth century by French novelists writing in the nouveau roman tradition.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 25, 2010, 02:38:50 am
Post by: bjlong on September 25, 2010, 01:27:01 pm
Spoiler: 4 (!) viewpoints (click to show/hide)
This is a good prompt piece--you let me know what each character is thinking right away, and develop their view competently. You do use some dramatic irony in here in a way that could be described as "droll." However, there are a couple of problems with the work:
First, the diction is relatively even throughout. This might work with the first two characters, but with the second two something should really change. Second, there's no break or arc to the flow of this piece, which makes it more of a grind to read through than it should be. Try varying your sentence structure, or use some unexpected metaphors. Finally, and this is more of an irk than a major flaw to a prompt post, there's no interconnecting story, no driving arc that gives us a setup, climax, and resolution. For me, that makes the piece a lot more difficult to get through.
However, I do find it interesting how you managed to make disparate circumstances and speakers all fit a single mood. All in all, a definitely interesting experiment. I'd be careful switching rapidly between viewpoints on your future projects, though--you seem to need more practice here.
Spoiler: Peace and War (click to show/hide)
This is a good prompt post. You were able to pull off a significant amount of dramatic irony and a good arc through the piece. You definitely had a few interesting moments as well.
However, this piece is not without problems: First, the government is definitely too obviously 'teh evulz'. This would have been ok, but then you switched to the guard's perspective, which gave you the perfect chance to point out the government's side of this equation. However, you just say that the government is bad again. This gives us the impression that the only one satisfied with the government is the government, and even in Nazi Germany at the end of WWII, this was far from true. Second, you use loaded terms where I'm pretty sure you don't mean to: ie, dirty revolutionary. Be very, very careful in political stories that you don't tap into something that you don't want to tap into. I'd recommend a closer reading of this piece to try to pick out these terms. Thirdly, I don't see how Jonal's final actions follow from what he knows, and who his character is. That's obviously a picture from one of the three guards, and he's clearly OK with killing anyone associated with the government, so why should he consider handing off this picture to some government dog's family?
The thing that I can't decide is brilliant or not is the fact that this doesn't feel like the future--more like some sort of 80's military resistance novel. Everyone feels dirty, and the machines are just props for the human drama. On the other hand, it seems like there have been significant changes in the world that we should be picking up on, but it's not there for us to see. I'm not sure, so I'll leave that for you to decide.
Spoiler: "Vylena's End" (click to show/hide)
This is an ok post. You do use an arc to drive your characters through the story, and you definitely have an interesting bit of history behind your story.
However: The first and biggest problem I have is that I'm thrown into a world where so much is different, then juggled around before I can start getting a comprehensive picture. In general, the more that a world is different from our own, the more time you'll need to get the world across to your audience. I get that there's a war, and it's pseudo-fantasy? Steampunk? I'm not actually sure. I can tell there's stuff behind the world, just not what that stuff is. Secondly, you swing me from one side to the other, and yet don't provide enough clues to tell me where I am. This is a big problem, as I end up confused for a bit into your prose, and you don't want your readers confused. Thirdly, you have a huge context problem--what does it matter to me if some somethings die? You have to first humanize these characters before we start caring about them.
However, I do want to praise the ending. What I got out of it was that the defending side had stolen a city. This is amazing, definitely one of those sensawunder moments that SF literary people bemoan dying. Good job working this in.
Why make something if nothing endures? -
You can lose everything in an instant.
They say “Aren’t the moments of brightness,
And the goodness born by your doing
Worth it?"
They just lie, and may be unknowing.
They just offer a consolation
To have something to keep us from thinking
Of our place on this pointless journey.
But I want no consolation,
No more hide’n’seek playing with Reason.
The truth!
OK, so I still don't like this poem. But you've definitely improved--the meter is consistent, it scans alright, and you have a good arc going... hrm. This will be hard, so let me just go with a line-by-line analysis.
1: An excellent opener. You hit a chord that resonates with a lot of people, and suggest you have some interesting thoughts about it.
2: This squanders all the drama you just built up by being trite. I get the feeling that you felt like you needed another line in there and put this one down without any good reason for it.
3-5: An excellent bit of quotation, thought "born by your doing" is clunky. You could have set it up a bit better with line 2.
6: This has a couple flaws. "Just" doesn't mean anything here, and your scansion would be better without it. "And may be unknowing" is both clunky and covers old ground uninterestingly.
7: "Just" doesn't mean anything again, but this is otherwise a good line.
8-9: This is decent, but I wouldn't leave it untouched. There might be a snappier way to put line 8.
10: A good setup for the rest of the stanza.
11: Excellent building here...
12: Urrk! This is less like a cliff hanger, and more like someone shot the writer! You have a good head of steam built up, so feel free to make some leaps here, and then close it off with a parting thought. As it is now, this end doesn't work.
Since I've lambasted two of your poems, here's one of mine to rip into:
Spoiler: A Poem! Rip into it. (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is actually really difficult for me to judge. Usually I come at prompts as a reader first, and a writer second, but this is so clearly a writing drill that reader-me completely shuts down. Should I judge this as a writer or a reader, then?
Here are some things that made reader-me shut down: First, the prose is relatively uniform. You might say that this is part of the prompt, but there are plenty of ways to make the prose less uniform without inserting an opinionated voice. Varying the sentence structure and length, for instance, would be one way. Varying verbs would help a lot too. (You have "has rendered" as the verb in two sentences side-by-side.) And rolling unnecessary sentences into more active sentences would make the prose snap more (Ie, get rid of sentences like "Its lights flash from side to side, red to blue and back again." by inserting text in the previous sentence). Secondly, and relatedly, there is no motion in this piece until the very end. Thing just sit there, for the most part, and the narrative voice describes in splotches instead of, say, panning across the scene, or starting far away and moving in. And thirdly, your prose somehow reads in a slow, lulling development, with few surprises, which may be part of the writing prompt.
Things which make the writer-me get going: You've definitely captured the type of Hemingway here, though in a slowed-down form. Perhaps because of this, I'm suddenly looking for symbolism, treating this as a text to be analyzed rather than a prompt to read. You capture the feeling of a still night, looking out on the surroundings, if not in a way that punches the reader in the teeth with "READ ME" vibes. This would be an excellent start to, say, a break-scene between action scenes. In short, there's definitely some wordcrafting skillz here.
With that, I finish all the prompts. Hopefully the abbreviated form didn't offend anyone.
Post by: Vector on September 25, 2010, 01:52:09 pm
This is actually really difficult for me to judge. Usually I come at prompts as a reader first, and a writer second, but this is so clearly a writing drill that reader-me completely shuts down. Should I judge this as a writer or a reader, then?
Here are some things that made reader-me shut down: First, the prose is relatively uniform. You might say that this is part of the prompt, but there are plenty of ways to make the prose less uniform without inserting an opinionated voice. Varying the sentence structure and length, for instance, would be one way. Varying verbs would help a lot too. (You have "has rendered" as the verb in two sentences side-by-side.) And rolling unnecessary sentences into more active sentences would make the prose snap more (Ie, get rid of sentences like "Its lights flash from side to side, red to blue and back again." by inserting text in the previous sentence). Secondly, and relatedly, there is no motion in this piece until the very end. Thing just sit there, for the most part, and the narrative voice describes in splotches instead of, say, panning across the scene, or starting far away and moving in. And thirdly, your prose somehow reads in a slow, lulling development, with few surprises, which may be part of the writing prompt.
Things which make the writer-me get going: You've definitely captured the type of Hemingway here, though in a slowed-down form. Perhaps because of this, I'm suddenly looking for symbolism, treating this as a text to be analyzed rather than a prompt to read. You capture the feeling of a still night, looking out on the surroundings, if not in a way that punches the reader in the teeth with "READ ME" vibes. This would be an excellent start to, say, a break-scene between action scenes. In short, there's definitely some wordcrafting skillz here.
Hmmm, thank you for the careful review! Unfortunately, much of what I could do here was controlled by the fact that I was looking out on a parking lot at night, saw an airplane passing overhead, and then saw a girl walking in front of me. Not the most exciting scene, so I did what I could. I also went with splotches of theme, in a way--the entire structure was formed more by the progression of ideas than of any camera usage, but I'll have to keep that in mind until next time.
Also, the double-rendered was intentional--it tied the absence of the stars and the muting of sound together in a more resonant way. Trust me, it sounds worse with different verbs. Well, different verbs from what I could choose from, anyway, since everything becomes a mess when one has no figures of speech.
But yeah, I'm definitely going to keep your advice for emotional engagement on the part of the reader. Time for more condensation efforts!
Post by: Supermikhail on September 26, 2010, 05:14:13 am
Second, there's no break or arc to the flow of this piece, which makes it more of a grind to read through than it should be. Try varying your sentence structure, or use some unexpected metaphors. Finally, and this is more of an irk than a major flaw to a prompt post, there's no interconnecting story, no driving arc that gives us a setup, climax, and resolution. For me, that makes the piece a lot more difficult to get through.Yup, no arc. I guess you can't ask for as much speculation on your prompt as on art-house movies. Also, had I been given a week to think up, write, edit and rewrite it, maybe I could state my idea clearer. With the rush of prompt I'm just left with an idea half-baked and never to be realised to its full potential. Thank you, Fishbreath.
I don't know what to make of your poem, bjlong, and first because I have no idea what Raleigh is, especially when it's apparently set on the same scale as England and America. Also, I'm not really good with symbolism, metaphor etc. I guess, everyone has their own place for bitterness.Spoiler: A Poem! Rip into it. (click to show/hide)
However, excellent critique, and it was interesting to see how radically our views differed in some places (and they differed on every piece).
Ah, I should, probably, elaborate.
I didn't find any difficulty with getting into Vylena's End. Exact implementations didn't matter, the approximate looks of the machines were in my head, I guess from all the sci-fi I've read and seen. Of maybe when you're a fan of sci-fi and fantasy, you accept these things easier. Krelos' descriptions were vivid to just right extent for me.
Well, Vector's piece may be splotchy, but for me it worked perfectly to visualise the scene, and my eyes followed where hers went without any difficulty. I remembered a place like that from around me, all the descriptions clicked spot on, and even the plane - there's an airport near that place.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 27, 2010, 12:08:33 pm
No pivot
On which to turn myself
Sometimes I think I’ve found it
And follow
It turns out an illusion
Those who I love stop living
Or change
(I do not know what’s worse)
My works turn obsolete
And I am
Left in a void of meaning
Post by: bjlong on September 28, 2010, 06:48:13 pm
Hmmm, thank you for the careful review! Unfortunately, much of what I could do here was controlled by the fact that I was looking out on a parking lot at night, saw an airplane passing overhead, and then saw a girl walking in front of me. Not the most exciting scene, so I did what I could. I also went with splotches of theme, in a way--the entire structure was formed more by the progression of ideas than of any camera usage, but I'll have to keep that in mind until next time.
Also, the double-rendered was intentional--it tied the absence of the stars and the muting of sound together in a more resonant way. Trust me, it sounds worse with different verbs. Well, different verbs from what I could choose from, anyway, since everything becomes a mess when one has no figures of speech.
But yeah, I'm definitely going to keep your advice for emotional engagement on the part of the reader. Time for more condensation efforts!
^_^ Glad to help! Just remember, all reviews come with a big IMO attached to the front--if you figure out that I'm being unreasonable, or a way to satisfy me without following my suggestions, or you just don't like my face, feel free to throw my opinion out the window.
Yup, no arc. (...)
I don't know what to make of your poem, bjlong, and first because I have no idea what Raleigh is, especially when it's apparently set on the same scale as England and America. Also, I'm not really good with symbolism, metaphor etc. I guess, everyone has their own place for bitterness.
However, excellent critique, and it was interesting to see how radically our views differed in some places (and they differed on every piece).
Ah, I should, probably, elaborate.
I didn't find any difficulty with getting into Vylena's End. Exact implementations didn't matter, the approximate looks of the machines were in my head, I guess from all the sci-fi I've read and seen. Of maybe when you're a fan of sci-fi and fantasy, you accept these things easier. Krelos' descriptions were vivid to just right extent for me.
Well, Vector's piece may be splotchy, but for me it worked perfectly to visualise the scene, and my eyes followed where hers went without any difficulty. I remembered a place like that from around me, all the descriptions clicked spot on, and even the plane - there's an airport near that place.
The lack of an arc is fine--not something I'd lambast you on a prompt piece for, but it's good to keep that in mind whenever you're writing. You can end up with a climax you weren't expecting, that way.
Raleigh is a city in North Carolina. Which is in the southern US. It was meant to mirror the Nazareth at the beginning. Hopefully that helps.
As for the critiques, I should probably mention that I come at these things from Poe's perspective--the only thing that matters is the effect, emotional or rational, on the reader. While structure can be helpful for creating entertaining word choice, or forcing the reader to interpret things in a certain context, it comes only as a tool for forcing the reader to feel or think about this story in a certain way. As such, if people tragically die, then the reader must feel sorrow--if someone argues, the logic must be sound and the reader must become rationally engaged.
As for the poem, I won't have a chance to critique it for some time, but I'm not going to let that stop me from posting. Let me just say that you're getting better!
Post by: Supermikhail on September 29, 2010, 09:13:17 am
Quick edit: Thanks for your impressions on my last poem, even though they are contained in one sentence. But it ends with an exclamation mark!
Also, I assume it'd be a bit early to talk about an epic poem?
Post by: mendonca on September 30, 2010, 10:00:22 am
Also, I assume it'd be a bit early to talk about an epic poem?
Do it. You know you want to.
Post by: Supermikhail on September 30, 2010, 12:45:48 pm
Just in case, ^that was about my self-esteem.
More seriously about the epic poem. I'm not sure what I had in mind in my previous post, now I can only think of Othor II that's already suffered a lot, and I just wonder if anyone else here thinks that it'd be a risky thing to bring up again, even if in a properly outlined shape. And with all the experience I've gained since then, particularly through this thread. In case anyone gets interested enough to check out what the hell is Othor II, here are two links - 1) original (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49546.0), 2) my attempt at turning it into a game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61322.0). Also, mendonca may remember my ScriptFrenzy submission that's related.
Post by: Willfor on October 02, 2010, 12:10:15 am
I know in advance I have enough plot for at least one more novel. Mostly because the plot isn't resolved at the end of this first novel even though things have settled down by the end (I don't like sudden endings in novels, and I want to write something I would read). I plan to continue outlining until I reach an exceptable resolution to the primary plot.
Wolrdbuilding has come along significantly, but I expect it to expand further as I write and outline.
Post by: Fishbreath on October 02, 2010, 03:20:24 am
In other news, I've been doing some groundwork on the short story I'm going to build off the last sci-fi fragment I put up. I'd like to involve you folks in the production from start to finish, and see how much better it turns out with critique at every stage. I'm going to allow myself the delusion that someone reading this might actually want to read the finished product sight unseen and put the outline in spoilers. My tentative title is "We Sail Off To War", from the last line of the Hymn of the Naval Arm (lyrics at the end of the post):
Spoiler: Outline (click to show/hide)
, Hymn of the Naval Arm:
The star-studded blackness awaits us
As we once again sail from friendly shores
Remember, remember
What we are fighting for
Protecting Confederate union
Defending the country that we adore
For honor, and for glory
We sail off to war
I have a wee little music track to go with that, but my wifi is bad enough that I can't get it to you.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 02, 2010, 04:59:47 am
At peril of stating the obvious, I've got some thought on outlining myself, and at large part they are addressed to Fishbreath, too. I've thought some on Many Words and decided that it lacks a hook in the beginning. To be blunt. Basically, what I want to say is, before you consider your great novel outline finished, consider these points: do you have a hook in the beginning, some suspense, something for the reader to look forward to (sometimes it's just that the whole story is a flashback of the protagonist). Do you keep enough suspense through your story. For example, I've started to think in my last outline about whether and when I should uncover the nature and backstory of important characters. I could do it, but is it going to make the characters less interesting, and the story less exciting afterwards. Maybe if you think about your story in these terms, you'll be able to trim it down, Willfor.
Not to offend, again, but, Fishbreath, it's so funny to read another person's outline! Well, for me for some reason. I don't do it just like that, but I can imagine myself writing it... Or maybe it just feels like reading somebody's diary...
Post by: shadow_archmagi on October 02, 2010, 07:22:37 am
Ordinarily I'd just post text but
A. It's five pages long
B. I have like, fonts and things here that I'd like to keep.
The Epic Of Carl is a hitchhiker's guide-esque (their words not mine) story of a man who lives in a futuristic dystopia.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 02, 2010, 09:22:56 am
Although, to be frank,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, at first I actually thought it to be intentional, but it's probably not - in the beginning you've got Carl's and his co-worker's names uncapitalised.
About the hosting. First, your choice is unfortunate in that MediaFire uploads have a tendency to expire. Then, it's probably a matter of choice, but it would be easier to convert the file to PDF, for one it's faster to open and you can't edit it without some manipulation. Besides that, there are many hosting services for text files (like Google Docs), blogs that actually allow many different fonts and formats, although I think your point about fonts is kind of silly.
Post by: Willfor on October 02, 2010, 09:43:35 am
@Willfor: Don't mean to offend, but your last entry could use more straight writing work than outlining, what with always leaving out some descriptions and bits. Also, you don't mean to sell you book, right? I think that's kind of huge size for a beginning writer, I mean an average book has 400 words per page max, and you get 300 pages. I may be wrong, but publishers don't like to risk too big novels these days. Saving paper, I guess. ::)
At peril of stating the obvious, I've got some thought on outlining myself, and at large part they are addressed to Fishbreath, too. I've thought some on Many Words and decided that it lacks a hook in the beginning. To be blunt. Basically, what I want to say is, before you consider your great novel outline finished, consider these points: do you have a hook in the beginning, some suspense, something for the reader to look forward to (sometimes it's just that the whole story is a flashback of the protagonist). Do you keep enough suspense through your story. For example, I've started to think in my last outline about whether and when I should uncover the nature and backstory of important characters. I could do it, but is it going to make the characters less interesting, and the story less exciting afterwards. Maybe if you think about your story in these terms, you'll be able to trim it down, Willfor.
Alright, this is where I have to shoot you down. In no particular order:
1) The chapter I posted here serves on a single purpose, and that was to make sure the characters in it were going to be cooperative when I decided to write in full. I've written an entire second draft of it, and that's not going up yet because I'm working on a third draft of it with the more solid Hera narrative voice I've picked up since I began fully working on the outline. A lot of the criticism you supplied was taken to heart in it.
2) I should have finished this outline before even writing the chapter because I didn't know how deep my plot was going to go at the time, and I couldn't foreshadow as much as I wanted.
3) Writing work for me is significantly easier than outlining is, and I have never successfully completed an outline for any project. The fact that I have actually made one I can stand is a major accomplishment in itself for me, and will help with my motivation to continue this project. And yes, now that I know how the first book is going to end I can put in a lot more hooks than when I had only a faint idea of what was going to happen. I suspect that by the time I finish outlining the entire story (and see what makes sense and what doesn't in the process) I will be able to see the entire story a lot more clearly.
The only disadvantage is that outlines for me find it difficult to survive the first encounter with the enemy (characters I've never written before).
4) As for the publishing, whatever I send in will not be the final product by any means. I'm predicting at least 20-40% of what I write will end up on the cutting room floor once the publisher's editors go over it with a red pen. My work will only have started when I sell it, because then I will actually have deadlines to follow. I don't know how hard it is for some other people, but I cannot simultaneously be an editor and a writer at the same time.
Summary: Novels are hard work. :(
Post by: Supermikhail on October 02, 2010, 10:20:31 am
I didn't know that nowadays most work was done by publishers' editors. Then it isn't any better than pop-music industry. :(
Post by: shadow_archmagi on October 02, 2010, 11:29:30 am
Also, at first I actually thought it to be intentional, but it's probably not - in the beginning you've got Carl's and his co-worker's names uncapitalised.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Your point about tenses will bear looking into though
First, your choice is unfortunate in that MediaFire uploads have a tendency to expire. Then, it's probably a matter of choice, but it would be easier to convert the file to PDF, for one it's faster to open and you can't edit it without some manipulation. Besides that, there are many hosting services for text files (like Google Docs), blogs that actually allow many different fonts and formats, although I think your point about fonts is kind of silly.
I'll try google docs, then
Post by: Willfor on October 02, 2010, 12:15:47 pm
Ah, I guess I offended you more by saying that I meant no offense. Also I forgot your disclaimer about that sample.It's all good. I'm just giddy with finally having a story that starts writing itself, and that's making my backbone just a little bit harder.
I didn't know that nowadays most work was done by publishers' editors. Then it isn't any better than pop-music industry. :(
As for the publishing industry, the best overview I've had on it is reading other author's experiences with it. Here (http://www.brightweavings.com/forums/tour.htm) for instance. March 03, 2010 he has a guest post by his production editor. November 25, 2009 he has a guest post by his copy editor. Both of these show some insights on how the publishing industry is in relation to authors these days.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 02, 2010, 12:47:21 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on October 02, 2010, 01:21:24 pm
@Willfor: Don't mean to offend, but your last entry could use more straight writing work than outlining, what with always leaving out some descriptions and bits. Also, you don't mean to sell you book, right? I think that's kind of huge size for a beginning writer, I mean an average book has 400 words per page max, and you get 300 pages. I may be wrong, but publishers don't like to risk too big novels these days. Saving paper, I guess. ::)
At peril of stating the obvious, I've got some thought on outlining myself, and at large part they are addressed to Fishbreath, too. I've thought some on Many Words and decided that it lacks a hook in the beginning. To be blunt. Basically, what I want to say is, before you consider your great novel outline finished, consider these points: do you have a hook in the beginning, some suspense, something for the reader to look forward to (sometimes it's just that the whole story is a flashback of the protagonist). Do you keep enough suspense through your story. For example, I've started to think in my last outline about whether and when I should uncover the nature and backstory of important characters. I could do it, but is it going to make the characters less interesting, and the story less exciting afterwards. Maybe if you think about your story in these terms, you'll be able to trim it down, Willfor.
Not to offend, again, but, Fishbreath, it's so funny to read another person's outline! Well, for me for some reason. I don't do it just like that, but I can imagine myself writing it... Or maybe it just feels like reading somebody's diary...
Oops. What I said here appears to have been lost. Oh well.
I have a new prompt, though: write us some exposition, but be sneaky about it. We should be having a good time, but at the end we should have picked up on at least one important and non-obvious fact about your world. Bonus points if you don't tell us what the fact is and we still get it.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 04, 2010, 11:12:58 am
Well, I might do something about it at least after I figure out what it actually means.
Although, I have to bitterly refer to my story about rain again in relation to the possible success of this prompt - nobody got that it had a story arc. Well, probably if you explicitly tell people that your story has an easter egg, then it might work.
Post by: Fishbreath on October 06, 2010, 10:35:19 am
It's not writing per se, but the lyrics are a bit further up, and you can get the music here (http://rapidshare.com/files/423462538/Hymn_of_the_Naval_Arm.ogg). I'd appreciate your comments.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 06, 2010, 11:12:42 am
The tune seems a bit rough. If it was I who was working on it, I'd polish some notes, so they don't seem too noisy, like... how're they called... maybe, triplets in the ending part, where they are pretty hard to make out as individual notes and sound as if the trumpet (or whatever it was) went out of tune for an instant. And generally I'd make it more chord-y. Also, you seem to repeat notes in quick succession in some places and it doesn't really works with current instruments and reverb.
But it works as a hymn. Reminds me of Soviet Russia, where music plays you.
Disclaimer: I've never criticised music before!
Post by: Fishbreath on October 06, 2010, 11:23:55 am
But it works as a hymn. Reminds me of Soviet Russia, where music plays you.
That was actually the idea: I hammered out the melody after listening to Farewell of Slavianka one day.
As for the critique: the problem I have with writing music is that I get too involved in it--it might sound as clear as mud to an outside observer, but because I've been in the trenches fiddling with the notes for an hour or three I'll be able to pick it out myself. Alternately, I'll be working on one part, and become completely unable to hear all the other parts after.
I listened to the one I put up, and holy cow did MuseScore add a lot of extra reverb when I exported. I'll have to fix that.
Triplets is the word you're looking for.
Use of both depth and counterpoint have always been hard for me, because I'm a woodwind player. Multiple voices are difficult for me to wrap my head around, but that's what practice is for. I thought that the one section right before the triplets was good in those terms--I don't think I've ever mixed that many voices that successfully.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 06, 2010, 11:44:05 am
You know what? If you make your story into an audio-book, and make a whole album of tunes to go along with it, this hymn stands a chance to be the starting chime (or another word entirely) for each episode and become the piece setting the mood and standing-out in memory.
Edit: Found something amazingly interesting, I think. Possible origin of the five basic plots (http://www.gointothestory.com/2010/10/screenwriting-101-pen-densham.html)
Post by: Acanthus117 on October 06, 2010, 05:33:26 pm
Whenever I brainstorm on what I'm going to write (world-build, create backstories and such) I find that after a while, the idea becomes uninteresting to me and I get quite frustrated. Do you have any tips for me?
Post by: shadow_archmagi on October 06, 2010, 07:38:05 pm
Hey Supermikhail, I have a problem.
Whenever I brainstorm on what I'm going to write (world-build, create backstories and such) I find that after a while, the idea becomes uninteresting to me and I get quite frustrated. Do you have any tips for me?
I do!
The best cure for apathy is panic. That's why I run D&D; if I have five people who are going to arrive at my house and expect me to tell a story, then I damn well better tell a story. Alternatively, if you're a youth (AND THE FACT THAT YOU ARE ON THE NET MEANS YOU ARE) then just take a creative writing class at your college/highschool so that there's GPA and deadlines.
Alternatively, get your family/friends to take an interest in your work, or at least beat you with sticks if you don't produce.
Alternatively, whenever you find your work uninteresting, start something new, and then at the end of the year, FUSION IT TOGETHER!
Post by: Acanthus117 on October 06, 2010, 09:19:52 pm
I'm considering taking creative writing in college, and I think the idea for letting my family and friends see it is great. Thanks!
Post by: Supermikhail on October 07, 2010, 02:51:19 am
Honestly, after reading shadow_archmagi's inspired reply, I can't think of anything else but approval. If you haven't done much writing beyond worldbuilding, and after some time it grows stale on you, I suspect you just lose motivation because you don't really feel that you're getting closer to actually writing the story. Which means that you probably need to do some writing challenges or that course in college, which is going to contain plenty of those, I reckon. Hopefully it'll make a motivational breakthrough for you, as you'll know that you definitely can write something and finish it, what's more important.
Otherwise, getting to physiological reason of losing interest in an idea can be helpful. The brain lives on new impressions, it's well known that writers that got somewhere don't just sit on their asses and type day and night, but travel around the world, get involved with interesting people and organisations. It may be a part of their nature, but it may be a part of their professional approach to their job. They look for ideas, and their brain looks for new data. So, if there are no more sparks driving your worldbuilding onward, and you know there are things that could use some work in that world, you might want to go out to some interesting place. Like, if your world is ancient history based - go to a museum. If it's space based - find an astronautics museum. Well, probably the simplest solution, anyway. I suspect you can't do it right now, so I don't suggest traveling somewhere.
Oh, also, if you go to a museum, don't drive, take a walk (may depend on the distance). Brains like oxygen.
About the last piece of shadow's advice, I hope you'll excuse me if I say that taking a break is actually for losers. You've got a good chance that you're going to come back to your story or world intermittently, but never really do anything with it. And it doesn't improve either your motivation to write it, or your self-esteem (from personal experience).
Finally, a disclaimer: I'm actually not the best person to seek advice on this matter, because all of my (relatively) big things that did or didn't come to a conclusion, I started writing without any worldbuilding whatsoever, and all the worldbuilding I did went into stories that never saw the light of day. Although this year I plan to change it (and I plan, and I plan, and I plan).
Post by: Acanthus117 on October 07, 2010, 05:37:55 pm
I'll probably try to give you people something soon. :D
Post by: Supermikhail on October 08, 2010, 09:13:47 am
Anyway, I've come up with something for the last prompt. And I still can't tell if I got it right. Actually I'm pretty sure I didn't, but that's what it inspired me to write.
Spoiler: Sneaky Exposition (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on October 08, 2010, 10:57:52 am
Grammar niggle: "The ceiling has got a chandelier hanging from it" reads awkwardly to me. You could strike the 'got' and keep the same meaning, but "A chandelier hangs from the ceiling" sounds better to my ear.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 08, 2010, 11:09:18 am
So you got what the sneaky fact was? Just yes or no! ;)
Edit: I just got an thought - besides this thread getting slower in its tracks, I suddenly got a feeling that something is amiss - a connection to the rest of the forum! So, how about, for the next prompt, after the current one runs out, we take something set in Dwarf Fortress?
Post by: Iituem on October 08, 2010, 11:34:17 am
Also, that text is perhaps too subtle for me. Beyond the colour references, I couldn't get anything, even against the number twelve.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 08, 2010, 11:43:57 am
But I should say, if you've already got an idea and are itching to let it out on paper, I urge you to do so. Part of my hesitation is because I can't think of a very good formula beyond "set in DF". Maybe if you write your thing first, then we here will be inspired by it for a particular theme.
Post by: Iituem on October 08, 2010, 12:11:53 pm
Spoiler: Flicker (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Edit 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Edit 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2010, 12:33:33 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on October 08, 2010, 01:29:44 pm
It's very good, especially in the exposition department... Wait, it's for the exposition prompt, right? Ehm, my bad.
Anyway, very good. You've got a good sense of tempo. But I've got a few remarks. First, what caught my eye, and probably is just a doing of haste - "Sandy fixed her smile... and stray strands of sandy hair." It feels almost deliberate, but this word-play with name and hair-colour doesn't look healthy to me. Also repetition of sounds "str". If it's not deliberate, and I haven't caught anything like that, then it should be avoided.
Now, the second criticism is more grave, at least to me. The dialogue is overflowing with said-bookisms (please, Google it if you don't know what it is, there are simply a ton of articles on the subject). They are distracting, and they are long, the dialogue feels like it's slugging forward, while it could be snappy and precise... Well, at least you don't interrupt your characters several times per line like I used to do half-a-year back.
Well, for the hidden fact, I only can think that green-eyed lady is some sort of African goddess, or if we take it a tier lower, a voodoo princess, or just a sorceress. Well, because the lights blink.
I'm probably not subtle enough, either. But in my story colour really is the key... Hey, what's that I see? "He's had twelve already." Is that somehow addressed to me? :o
@Leafsnail: I'll be waiting. By chance, which prompt, actually, has interested you? The current one about exposition, or the oncoming one, about DF?
Post by: Iituem on October 08, 2010, 01:51:44 pm
Updating post with edit revision 1.
Also, red and white seem to be clues, but the blue interruption is throwing me off.
Done. Dialogue still feels blocky, could use advice.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 08, 2010, 02:21:11 pm
So, if you don't mind, I'll try to illustrate.
Sandy returned to the table, where Michael was setting his empty tray on the table. She stood next to him and tried to look professional.
"Who's the lady with the green hair?" she asked quietly.
"Nambala? Rich, like the rest of them. Namibian diamond mine, I hear."
"Well, she's getting cosy with the shipping fleet." Sandy nodded to the blue-suited fat man. "I guess diamonds do need transport."
Michael snorted.
"So would Bertrand if being drunk was a problem for him. He's had twelve already. Bloody Sap-Eyes."
"Michael! You know you can't call them that!" Sandy threw her hands up, to her ears, as if not hearing Michael's outburst could make it un-exist.
"I just don't know why Grunt-Eyes don't do this job. Must be the novelty of having us serve them."
Michael rolled his eyes, picked up the fully loaded platter on the table and headed into the crowd.
As he crossed the room one of the lights flickered, and the guests, food and drink flickered with it. For a brief moment, the mood lulled and a few frowns were exchanged, but soon enough the party went on.
Something like that, although, admittedly, I screwed up, too, but currently I don't have a good enough substitute.
Edit: edit. What about now? Or just pretend there is no blue.
Post by: Iituem on October 08, 2010, 02:27:51 pm
Well, it's... I don't know. I get the impression that you feel you need to put a dialogue-tag in the middle of every line. But it's not a screenplay, where every line has to be tagged, and exactly before it, and with such and such space before it. You don't have to tag every line, and you are to decide where you place that tag, if you do.
Actually that helps a lot. Another bad habit my English classes got me into (Damn you, schooling!) was that you DID have to keep identifying the characters and sticking dialogue tags in every line.
Edit 2 in place. Will try and incorporate these techniques into the DF thing next time.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 09, 2010, 02:28:37 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on October 10, 2010, 07:18:29 am
Oh, also, I'd like to congratulate myself in written form on figuring out where I could put a lot of poetry. Unfortunately, that story idea has only two characters in it, and I can't make up any more, despite having written a (rough) outline. They just don't want to be friends with anyone.
Post by: shadow_archmagi on October 10, 2010, 01:46:41 pm
About the last piece of shadow's advice, I hope you'll excuse me if I say that taking a break is actually for losers. You've got a good chance that you're going to come back to your story or world intermittently, but never really do anything with it. And it doesn't improve either your motivation to write it, or your self-esteem (from personal experience).
Oh, I didn't say TAKE A BREAK, I said "Do something else"
For instance, if you're writing a myth about laser sheep, and you're like 'man this is really dull I hate sheep' then stop writing that myth and start writing a myth about exploding dolphins and then if that gets old start writing about that space cabbage and so on so that way, one of two things happens
1. You get a finished myth! Hurrah, your world is that much more built!
2. You get a bunch of unfinished myths and then eventually you can put them all together to be the story of how the laser sheep eat space cabbage but if a penguin eats it he explodes!
Post by: Supermikhail on October 10, 2010, 02:02:11 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on October 20, 2010, 08:05:40 am
Second, it's time to take the jumper cables to this thread. We've had the same prompt now for a week with no responses, so I think that's a good place to start.
A few nights ago I finished the second book of Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, which is an interesting study of the problems of colonizing a new world for one, and more importantly for us, an incredible piece of multi-character writing. I was most struck by how well the author wrote his dialogue; I feel like some of the better parts could be stripped entirely of tags and narration and still be intelligible.
So, in that spirit, here is my challenge to you, along the lines of Vector's (at least I think it was hers) last one in that it's more an exercise than an opportunity to tell a story: write a conversation between three people, without using dialog tags, narration, overuse of given names, or transcribed accents to set them apart. Make it obvious who's speaking based solely on the pattern and rhythm of their speech.
Probably a bit difficult, but we improve through hardship!
EDIT: Corrected a detail pointed out to me by someone downthread. Oops. <.<
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 20, 2010, 11:56:05 am
And I'll try to think of something for the prompt soon.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 20, 2010, 01:22:26 pm
So, the person who not so long ago (by sociological standards) advocated his fancy word tags, wants to get rid of them entirely? ;) The world is changing, indeed. Well, I feel like I haven't written anything creative for ages, so I'll probably try taking this prompt on.
And now, as we're a few lines into this post, I'd like to ask the opinion of all reading this on the matter that drove me to feel alien to this forum and almost abandon (but not entirely, thanks to Fishbreath) this thread. Do you think that the writer is a servant of readers, that he/she should leave his/her personality behind when getting into a story, and actually what he/she thinks of his/her story is irrelevant as its quality is for readers to decide?
And. I hope somebody agrees with me that critique isn't, at least always, to expose the flaws of a piece, that it may be educational for the writer. Just on that point that you should do to others as you want others to do to you. People learn their whole lives, and writers are among the hardest learners. And if you aren't a writer, and you're learning some new skill, you don't really want people to laugh at you, and much rather want them tell you how you could improve.
Edit: Oh. A community story, as I see it, needs a strong writer to lead it. If someone would like to lead such a project, then speak up.
Although, a community story could be combined with prompts, and then we would only need our dear Fishbreath to provide prompts, and then together wrangle the story through next impossible plot twist brought about by the prompt.
Post by: Fishbreath on October 20, 2010, 02:08:08 pm
Community stories are entertaining but difficult. As a theoretical exercise I might suggest something along the lines of a golf scramble, where everyone interested submits a segment and there's a vote on which is the best, but that's rather organized and might also bruise some egos.
Post by: Acanthus117 on October 21, 2010, 02:14:54 am
Also, I'm joining NaNoWriMo!
I think it'll be a good exercise, what do you think?
Post by: mendonca on October 21, 2010, 02:55:27 am
((Vector's a girl))
Also, I'm joining NaNoWriMo!
I think it'll be a good exercise, what do you think?
I'm sure it will be brilliant exercise. I did Script Frenzy this year and it gave me a great sense of satisfaction to complete it, as well as teaching me a bit about writing large amounts of text whilst having some sort of contained story.
Be prepared for some intensive writing though! and discard any quality checking procedure! It's all gonna be about the numbers of words, not the quality of writing. And good luck!
Anybody else signing up? I said I would, so I suppose I will. I'm in the process of outlining a story now, so that would provide good fodder ...
Post by: Acanthus117 on October 21, 2010, 03:09:23 am
Post by: Supermikhail on October 22, 2010, 12:30:58 pm
So, does anybody know of a good outlining software?
Or is anybody interested in collaboration?
Or is anybody a professional psychologist?
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 22, 2010, 01:40:49 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on October 22, 2010, 02:01:24 pm
However, 3 stories is truth. And now whenever I decide that I should get to completing an outline, I'm torn between them. And the other dozen... I just hope I find a partner to collaborate with soon, or just a decent sounding board, because I'm sort of desperate.
Post by: Talanic on October 23, 2010, 11:41:23 am
Also, if/when I have time, I might be able to allow a bounce or two.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 23, 2010, 01:49:26 pm
But I've installed the Storybook, and, it's kind of hard, because I don't think of my story in scenes. But I've created a plot strand for a secondary character group that are fighting with the protagonist's group, and maybe scenes will work as one group overcoming obstacles of another, but I foresee I'm going to get bogged down in groups. Maybe I'm just not cut-out for the long genre.
Edit: Errrm, that's a stupid question. Better bounce me this one - how does a terrorist group steal a weapon prototype from a heavily guarded research facility? It's not a cornerstone of my story, but it'd be nice to know. The society is a little more advanced than ours, a little more militarized. The terrorists are pretty well-equipped, too. Does "Mission Impossible" scenario sound cheesy?
Post by: Talanic on October 23, 2010, 02:05:39 pm
Edit: More thoughts (particularly because my style of helping tends to be asking questions back at you, helping you answer it yourself). What's the goal in stealing it - are they trying to wipe the records of it as well, setting research back to square one? Do they want the prototype along with tech data on it? Do they have qualms about smash-and-grab tactics, or have problems with inflicting mass casualties? Or are they trying to make as little fuss as possible, possibly trying to get in and out without anyone knowing they were ever there? It all changes their tactical and strategic goals, and therefore their approach.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 23, 2010, 02:40:11 pm
Well, thanks. That's some more stuff to keep in mind. :)
Post by: Talanic on October 23, 2010, 02:55:27 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on October 24, 2010, 04:12:29 am
I've got a special-ops unit, members of which possess a special ability that makes them very efficient in fighting crime, but I'm not going to delve into specifics because it's too much physics for the current discussion. This special ability, naturally, brings about a special weakness. The unit members are chosen among autistic children. To keep them stable under stress, they are assigned a partner - for life - their island of stability.
I thought for some time about names, and decided that they need to be matching and to have a pattern among them - another psychological anchor. What first came to mind was Yin and Yang, and I even saved the hieroglyphics in the potential names file, just in case. But it doesn't provide enough of a pattern. My next idea was to take colours. Well, I sifted through the Wikipedia colours article for matching (opposing) colours which sound relatively nice. To get to the chase. Now I can't choose the pairs that don't give the colour nature away too easily, but don't sidetrack the reader, like the couple "Copper - Steel blue", and "Alice - Turk" which are contractions for "Alizarin - Turquoise" and don't have a slightest hint at colours.
I'm providing my colours list below
Code: [Select]
- [Teal - Amber] ;
? [Yin♀ - Yang♂] ; [阴 - 阳 (simplified)] ; [陰 - 陽 (traditional)]
- [Ao - Electric Yellow] ;
? [Alizarin - Turquoise] ; [Alice - Turk]
? [Auburn - Sky/Baby/Cornflower Blue] ;
[Aureolin - Blue] ;
[Orange - Azure] ;
- [Red - Cyan] ;
- [Green - Magenta] ;
- [Blue - Yellow] ;
[Cardinal - Aquamarine] ;
[Carmine - Aquamarine] ;
[Carnelian - Aqua/Turquoise/Cyan] ;
[Cerise - Aquamarine] ;
? [Jade♂ - Rose♀] ;
? [Copper♀ - Han blue♂] ;
? [Dodger blue♂ - Amber/Flame/Persimmon♀] ;
? [Jasper♂ - Turquoise♀] ;
- [Myrtle - Lavender] ;
[Olive - Light iris] ;
[Redwood - Dark cyan] ;
[Ruby - Emerald/Medium aquamarine] ;
[Russet - Pastel blue] ;
? [Saffron♀ - Ultramarine/Ao/Blue♂] ;
- [Steel blue - Copper] ;
? [Tangelo♂ - Capri♀] ;
[Tenné - Cyan] ;
- [Thistle - Myrtle] ;
- [Thulian - Jade] ;
- [Violet - Lime] ;
Together with my other thoughts. "-" means, I didn't like it at all, "?" means, under doubt. "♀" means, probably female name, ♂ - probably male.So my question, besides "Would you help me choose?", is, should I bother? Will this be interesting to the reader? Do I make sense?
Post by: Talanic on October 24, 2010, 11:28:15 am
There's a practical reason why linked names might come up in story. If bad guys capture Yin, Yang, Carmine, Cornflower, and Bob, they know to threaten Yin to get Yang to cooperate. That could be either an in-character reason why not to do it, or an out-of-character reason TO do it, to have a scene like that.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 24, 2010, 11:57:45 am
If that's confusing, maybe you can help me with another, pretty mind-boggling thing - what would be the characteristic traits of the modern society, if the world only had a handful of countries, and the main enemies were inside, such as a huge terrorist network, whose agenda, pretty similar to a religion, is that humanity is to strive for a perfect human through the use of eugenics, euthanasia, other funny words, and that special unit is a blight on the face of the Earth to them. There is pretty much a constant secret civil war. Can you think of any traits of the people in this society, how it radically differs from ours? For some reason, before I started thinking about it seriously, I wanted them to have hovercars, but that kind of doesn't make sense.
Post by: Talanic on October 24, 2010, 01:38:12 pm
So let's start with the obvious governmental questions - dictatorship or democracy? Free-market capitalist, regulated capitalist, socialist, or communist economy? If there's a huge terrorist group, I'm leaning towards a democracy with a free-market capitalist economy, as it allows the villains more ability to equip themselves and forces the government to be very careful in how it deals with its foes.
They're a bit more advanced than us, so medical tech in particular is probably very good, with the ability to replace missing limbs easily. Basic cybernetics are also possible, maybe even to the degree that people get specific cybernetics to help them with their jobs (augmented vision, extended or durable limbs, mental control over vehicles, etc).
The question arises of how they manage to keep this civil war a secret - and who benefits from keeping it secret, anyway? That's a ton of effort, increasing exponentially with each casualty on either side. The villains won't want it secret because it's how they recruit - by presenting themselves as winning, and their enemies as subhuman failures. The government won't want it entirely secret because it makes good propaganda. The *scope* of the war might be kept secret, as may the existence or details of the special unit, but the existence of the war, especially in the information age, when every person has a cell phone that's also a camera, there's little you can do.
As for hovercars, imagine if environmentalists gained power to the point that the roads were torn up to allow nature to take over, after hovercars that can pass over nearly anything a meter or two up without leaving tracks became popular. I don't know how they would function in a scientific sense, but there's a reason why people would prefer them - and how they'd be very useful to a terrorist organization that could lose pursuit in forested areas without leaving tracks behind.
Post by: Supermikhail on October 24, 2010, 02:32:38 pm
Anyway, I guess I'm going to let you in on one more critical plot twist. What keeps this "secret" war going (by the way, by secret I meant that it doesn't go on in open fights, but through sabotage, raids, all that deal), is pretty much a single person, a double-faced official, who plays an important part in the governments on the both sides of the conflict. Important, as in practically important, doing stuff, not formally, as a top-of-the-ladder in hierarchy. Do you think that's enough to make his going without suspicion realistic? Or, I guess, I could put in a couple of cases where he, in the past, had to eliminate a suspicious person.
Ah, I'm probably going to end up with a precarious balance. I've got very vague idea of how advanced I want tech to be. On one hand, I know that in that Universe the Large Hadron Collider was successful. But they haven't realized its full potential yet. The special weapon that the special unit uses works on elementary particles, but the deep mechanics of its workings are still a subject of much speculation. How far is that advanced?
Post by: Little on October 24, 2010, 03:18:28 pm
Spoiler: Halloween for Teenagers (click to show/hide)
Post by: Talanic on October 24, 2010, 03:45:38 pm
A double agent, high up in the hierarchy, probably in a bureaucratically important position (like the Prime Minister's secretary, as in scheduler, not Secretary of X). That plays well into things - also, your clarification on what 'secret' means makes a TON more sense than what I was interpreting it as before.
So your high-tech weapon is along the lines of a string disruptor. The question is then, why that in particular? Does high-tech armor exist that even a gauss weapon can't penetrate? Are lasers just not good enough? What makes the expense of researching and developing (and stealing!) this weapon worthwhile?
Time to head off to work, so I won't be seeing your response for a bit...
Post by: Supermikhail on October 25, 2010, 12:30:20 pm
@Talanic: That's a nice thing about different timezones - when a person in the US goes to work, you go to bed, and vice versa. And no one is inconvenienced.
Anyway, that's a good one. I forgot completely about what was the purpose of stealing the prototype - it's the ultimate defense against the special ops' weapons. I guess the weapons couldn't have been developed just because they could. I'm probably going to put in some mildly distracting tech, I imagine nanosuits... Hmmm... I'm having real trouble thinking of something that would require weapons able to cut through any material (yeah, let's just call them swords) to fight. And I'm having trouble imagining these swords developed quite purposely. As I said, the mechanics of their work aren't understood completely, so some serendipity had to be involved... Hmmm... That's a loose end.
Or am I asking wrong questions here?
By the way, eagerly awaiting Chapter 13, by the way. Oooh, ominous number. :o
Post by: Talanic on October 25, 2010, 05:34:57 pm
Idea: LHC leads to an unexpected breakthrough in dimensional physics that allows mundane projectiles and attacks to be shunted away into another dimension (possibly a finite space, from which they can be extracted later). Only an attack that doesn't actually exist (you get what I mean - like a weaponized rift) can actually bypass the device and score a hit.
And heading out with fiance now - back in a few hours.
Post by: Deon on October 25, 2010, 07:34:50 pm
Current mini-request:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's the character. I need someone to write greeting/farewell and trading dialogue, knowing these aspects. Also I would love if someone started to work on a quest side of dialogue, so please contact me!
Post by: Little on October 25, 2010, 07:56:12 pm
@Little: Uhm. So, how many people were there? I made out only two distinct - a nerd and a dick... And I guess this idea never works other than a gag. Really confusing. I'm half tempted to drop outlining and foruming to do this prompt myself in hope that I'm a messiah of untagged dialogue... Anyway, I got really interested in your creative process while you were doing this prompt, if you could share.
Three. The guy organizing it, the dick, and the nerd. The creative process behind this was that this basically happened yesterday. :P
Post by: Supermikhail on October 26, 2010, 10:42:44 am
Addendum: Nice new chapter. And ass-kicking nicely handled. :)
@Deon: :'( I hoped you'd keep the secret recipe secret.
Anyway, does this merchant have a face? I feel a face could make the process easier... Oh, wait, I'm not a native English speaker. However, I think this request is worthy of making it a sort of contest in this thread, so many people could give it a go.
Actually, how about, "Hello, stranger. What can I have... of you?" :D Although, to top my non-nativity, I haven't played Fallout 3, so I'll have to look it up, but I suspect greetings are similar to Oblivion's.
@Little: I'm afraid to ask which... I'm afraid to ask.
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 11:20:19 am
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2r5xhe0.png)
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 26, 2010, 12:31:58 pm
Post by: Fikes on October 26, 2010, 02:22:40 pm
Farewell: Believe me, the pleasure was all mine. Make sure to come back soon, the freshest meat doesn’t last long in this shop...
Post by: Supermikhail on October 26, 2010, 02:31:24 pm
And Deon, I suggest that the NPC not tell the player directly. Instead, we could set up the player to walk in on him cutting up peepul or something.Well, I'm opposed to that. Terrible, frightening, and gross moments need some suspenseful calm beforehand. Showing his cutting people right away would detract from the impact, and also, walk in on him where? He sure wouldn't cut his meat up in his backyard, if he's a professional.
Well, as I said, I'm not a native English speaker, but
"Hello there, Jimmy. (Just because I think he would address strange folks like that) What can I do for ya today? What would you say to our special - Buck's Fatman? (suppose we agree) You're new here, aren't you? Well, I'm Buck and I serve the best steak in the city. And you are? (introduce ourselves) [prot_name], you're a healthy specimen, if you don't mind my saying so."
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 03:15:20 pm
I really love Fikes' farewell message, I am going to use it in my next alpha release ASAP.
Also there will be a chance to see his "dark deeds"... not him cutting people (as I said there're others now who do it) but rather find a stock of human flesh in his safe place if you have a high lockpick skill, or you could see his "worker" cutting a recently killed man and interrogate him to learn about this business. Fallout is all about different ways to get/solve a quest, so I will try to make it as much non-linear as possible.
Also in the alpha03 I've added Iguana John who is supposed to be a street merchant selling iguana bits and iguana-on-sticks. I wrote a few phrases for him with some weird catchphrases (intentional), but I would love to make him to tell some stories (obviously from a strange point of view, as an iguana-lover) because he's supposed to be a son of Iguana Bob from Fallout 2, so he obviously saw a lot on his travels, because he went that far.
P.S. For your help I can make you (Supermikhail and Fikes) into two supermutant brothers (2nd gen supermutants) whom I plan to add at some point (Fikes and Mikhail, hehe, sounds fine for supermutants).
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 26, 2010, 03:18:39 pm
And Deon, I suggest that the NPC not tell the player directly. Instead, we could set up the player to walk in on him cutting up peepul or something.Well, I'm opposed to that. Terrible, frightening, and gross moments need some suspenseful calm beforehand. Showing his cutting people right away would detract from the impact, and also, walk in on him where? He sure wouldn't cut his meat up in his backyard, if he's a professional.
Well, as I said, I'm not a native English speaker, but
"Hello there, Jimmy. (Just because I think he would address strange folks like that) What can I do for ya today? What would you say to our special - Buck's Fatman? (suppose we agree) You're new here, aren't you? Well, I'm Buck and I serve the best steak in the city. And you are? (introduce ourselves) [prot_name], you're a healthy specimen, if you don't mind my saying so."
Arrite. You're better at this than me, so I'll follow your advice.
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 03:28:38 pm
Here's the look of Iguana John (his headpeace is not black, it's just weird lighting in the editor, it has the same color as his clothes in the game):
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2czwv34.png)
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 26, 2010, 03:31:17 pm
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 03:33:30 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on October 26, 2010, 03:35:05 pm
What do you mean by "who"?
Who is he?
Sorry if I'm being ignorant.
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 03:53:22 pm
Also in the alpha03 I've added Iguana John who is supposed to be a street merchant selling iguana bits and iguana-on-sticks. I wrote a few phrases for him with some weird catchphrases (intentional), but I would love to make him to tell some stories (obviously from a strange point of view, as an iguana-lover) because he's supposed to be a son of Iguana Bob from Fallout 2, so he obviously saw a lot on his travels, because he went that far.Just read a post above :P.
Post by: Fikes on October 26, 2010, 03:58:25 pm
After a while of doing that he can start to trust the player and maybe ask for an investment to improve his shop, making you his partner. It could be a way for a good player to learn his dark secret.
For Iguana John, I kind of imagine a mid-west good old boy tone. The type of old timey sales man that asks your name and the repeats it 50 times in the first conversation so he remembers it. I know the voice acting can’t record it, but I assume you could put it in the text dialog. Here is his greeting.: Welcome to my establishment! Not much to look at, I know, but I’ll fill your belly cheaper than old buck over there. What’s yer name stranger, and what can I getcha?
Farewell: Come back any time <playername>, any time. You’re always welcome here <playername>
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 04:02:09 pm
Post by: Fikes on October 26, 2010, 04:06:53 pm
You could throw out the player name thing all together, but I think it is a realistic dipiction of this type of person (as I see him, you could have a totally different idea). Gives him character.
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 04:18:44 pm
Post by: Fikes on October 26, 2010, 05:08:36 pm
Also, I think it would be really fun to make the player suspect John is using human meat, since Bob did in FO1. The quests could meet in the middle with a handy plot twist.
John: Welcome to my establishment! Not much to look at, I know, but I’ll fill your belly cheaper than old Buck over there. What’s yer name stranger, and what can I getcha?
Fikes: My name is Fikes. Do you have anything to eat other than Iguanas?
John (looking offended): Ya know Fikes, you just are not going to find a better source of pro-timber (purposeful mix of protein and fiber, because John doesn’t really know what he is talking about) than in the tasty iguana, Fikes. Let me tell you, I was raised on the stuff! I turned out great ya know, Fikes.
Fikes: Why do you keep calling me Fikes?
John: Customer service! It is what separates me from old Bucky over thar. It is like my dad always said, he said “John, some day you’ll be in charge. The shack is run down and the meat is stringy, you really have to sell this stuff ya know.”
Post by: Deon on October 26, 2010, 07:23:36 pm
Quote
Also, if he loves iguanas it is unlikely he'd be prone to cook and sale them.He loves them not in that way how you love cats. No, he loves EVERYTHING about them: their look, their habits, their ability to survive in this terrible world and their taste :). He thinks that they are the best of all animals, and the most tasty.
Also, I think I really love the way you write dialogues :3. Thank you.
The part with a "human meat" suspicions may give you tips about Buck's real business (if you didn't complete his quest) or allow you to kill poor Iguana John if your intelligence/speechcraft are high without any consequences because you could "convince" others that he had human meat too (if you brought some from Buck's house and dropped it in his storage). It would make no sense, but it could be a quest from a man across the street who hates the look of John's arse every morning under his windows...
So many possibilities :P.
Post by: Grakelin on October 29, 2010, 02:42:28 am
Post by: Vertigon on October 29, 2010, 10:35:12 pm
I enjoyed writing it and that what matters most
Beat it down, rip my writing in to shreds because that's the only way I'll improve
Here goes everything:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on October 30, 2010, 03:54:22 am
Nice development of the story, and nice twist in the end. This goes a long way to keep readers interested, making them think and wonder.
Your biggest fault, as I see it, is genre confusion. You've got a verbal conversation in mind, but, possibly, literary clichés make you try to write a regular action piece. Verbal conversation requires believable language, and not only in dialogue, but throughout the story. And, well, I'm having a hard time imagining an ex-con soldier start his story with "In the dim glow of dawn..." In a first-person piece, in general, language is very important. If you do it wrong, the reader's reaction may range from "Is he joking?" to "Hm... Experimental pieces aren't really my thing." As a fiction writer, you have to be an actor inside, so my advice if you're going to work on this piece further, would be to try to get into the shoes of the protagonist, put on a funny accent, and tell this same story, addressing an appropriate audience. Maybe some jargon to taste would be a good thing.
And while you do that, pay attention to dialogue-tags. It goes without saying that no one speaks like that in real life. More importantly, no one writes like that. Your dialogue-tags attract a lot of attention. I at first, after getting to "I exclaim", read only the dialogue tags. It may be because in your dialogue they're so redundant that they are a part on their own, so if you omitted the dialogue leaving only the dialogue-tags, you wouldn't miss anything. Keeping both parts is probably a bad idea, and I'll leave it up to you to decide which one you like most. However, if you decide on characters' words, a way to reduce the prominence of dialogue-tags lies in simplifying them. "Exclaim", "snarl", and "concede" are pretty fancy. Simpler substitutes are "say", "ask", "reply", and that's pretty much it. Well, "shout" for very tense situations... Hm, I lied. Technically, you can keep both parts, but you have to turn the dialogue-tags into separate action lines. That is, instead "snarling", Jun would glare at the protagonist, lowering his gun with a hidden threat, probably.
My biggest gripe, however, is that the story is in the same old space war, planet under orbital bombardment setting. Although, I suspect that it's related to some video game which I haven't played.
Post by: Fishbreath on October 30, 2010, 05:49:56 am
Post by: Supermikhail on October 30, 2010, 07:06:32 am
Post by: Fishbreath on October 30, 2010, 11:09:15 am
Post by: Vertigon on October 31, 2010, 01:36:21 pm
-critiquesnip-
Jeez, that's a glaring contradiction that I totally missed :o
Thanks.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 03, 2010, 04:11:29 pm
Spoiler: The plot (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on November 03, 2010, 04:32:38 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 03, 2010, 04:48:06 pm
I'm editing it right now.
EDIT: here's the full plot.
Spoiler: The plot (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on November 04, 2010, 01:37:03 am
It's an interesting plot if I'm reading it right. Are you planning on showing when the NPCs switch, or leaving it to the players to figure out?
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 04, 2010, 04:14:25 am
I just read the thing through though, and I didn't switch the names. I will name them something else in the mod though.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 04, 2010, 05:05:10 am
Edit: Further thoughts. It's a good idea to introduce the end boss as early as possible. From the general story point of view, and as a drive, a purpose to the player's actions.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 04, 2010, 06:05:39 am
And I'm not actually sure about the endgame thing, now that you mention it.
I do want lots of moral ambiguity, and for there not to be too much of a black and white thing, but I'm not totally sure how to go about that.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 04, 2010, 08:01:50 am
You do moral ambiguity by making your charcters realistic - give them deep motivation, establish relationships, strengths and flaws. First you've got NPC1 who's got to get into a close relationship with the PC (well, unless you go with Oblivion, in which case NPC1 is most likely to come out annoying to most players)... You know, thinking about that, ToEE would be a poor choice because it doesn't support interaction between members of a party, gotta think about that... Anyway, then you've got your endgame boss, who's probably a driven, power-crazy character, a strong but cruel leader. And something made him this way. Was he, like Genghis Khan, oppressed in youth? Did he win the power in battle? Or was he a prince surrounded by palace intrigue and backstabbing courtiers? Why does NPC1 want to overthrow him? Is he oppressed now? Or is he a backstabbing courtier? Or a now prince? Why does he turn to the PC and deceive him? Is he a coward? If so, is he pitiable?
Well, maybe that's too many questions, but thinking in this direction can help difficult choices. Also, is there a (genetic) reason behind the two NPC's similar appearances?
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 04, 2010, 10:18:20 am
And no, the similarity isn't genetic - NPC2 would probably have done this several times with other people, and as such will be using disguises and modification and stuff, magical or otherwise. Making them related might be interesting, but I don't know how too work that into the story and where that would fit, and it would probably end up as clutter.
As for Temple of Elemental Evil, I don't know what to think of it as I haven't even tried it. I don't think it'd be too appropriate though, because of the way it's presented.
And yeah, Oblivion has a bit of a problem with cinematics and character presentation. Which is why I'm wondering whether it's the best choice. Perhaps DA:O, but I can't get my head around the SDK and DA2 is coming out in a bit.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 04, 2010, 11:01:21 am
I hope somebody with more recent experience with current-gen games come by, because I lack at this department.
Are you set on the genre of the game? It occurred to me that it could benefit from being in the pure action genre, although I guess there are few pure action games that are in fantasy setting and support modding.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 04, 2010, 11:29:08 am
Oh. Oh. I didn't expect that I'd still get that weird puking feeling at a mere mention of DA:O with its "mature content", after all this time...
I hope somebody with more recent experience with current-gen games come by, because I lack at this department.
Are you set on the genre of the game? It occurred to me that it could benefit from being in the pure action genre, although I guess there are few pure action games that are in fantasy setting and support modding.
I don't know a lot of games in that genre, nor have I played many. And as you said, moddablility is scarce. I'm using current-gen games because I think I'll be able to reach a good audience that way, and tell the story better. I'm more used to those games, I guess.
As for the genre change, it's already rather action based. I dunno.
Post by: Fishbreath on November 04, 2010, 11:40:52 am
Post by: Supermikhail on November 06, 2010, 02:55:44 am
A perfect introduction to your real/hypothetical novel. That is, not a blurb, but a few beginning paragraphs to hook us, show us the protagonist, give us a glimpse of the conflict and the setting... Well, perfect for the action genre, I guess. You wouldn't want to open you cards up like that in a mystery novel. But you've got to hook the reader even if you're writing a mystery novel, right? So do it, and I'm gonna go learn myself some US holidays, because I assume that's the reasonable country to go with here... Aha, I guess on Thanksgiving we've got a turkey as a protagonist!
Post by: Supermikhail on November 13, 2010, 02:11:44 pm
Anyone been there (http://www.xtranormal.com/makemovies/) done that (http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6950981/)? I don't have any ideas to make into shorts, but if the site doesn't lie, it might be a goldmine, maybe even for this thread. They seem to have a fair selection of sets, but you can only have one or two characters and you have to sign up (well, I guess, naturally) to make something.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 13, 2010, 02:58:01 pm
What about this: Try to have the most silly/humorous story taken seriously. Cope with an exceedingly non-serious topic and make it so.
Or what about the other way around?
Post by: Supermikhail on November 13, 2010, 03:19:35 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on November 14, 2010, 10:07:04 am
Besides theatre plays, another cool promotional idea might be an audiobook. And I find there's such thing as LibriVox (http://librivox.org/), but nobody's going to make an audiobook out of a work of an unknown author. Besides the author him/herself. So I watched a couple of pretty dumb movies and letsplays over a past few days, and thought it would be a cool idea if I could instead listen to a good audiobook... After that I fed one of my few poems into an Internet text-to-speech engine and found that even spoken by a machine it sounds pretty nice... Then I thought for some reason, it would be even cooler if these audiobooks took up as much time to go through as a movie or an lp set by a decent person... that is, from half-an-hour up to two hours. Well, first I thought that just a book of such size would be cool, and counted the size as 28,000 words, if you read it at 200 words per minute (which is novella, I guess). For an audiobook this has to be cut down, and a quick Google gives me 150 wpm, which gives a story of 18,000 words. Which is 2.8 times less than what you need to do for NaNoWriMo, by the way...
In any case, and numerology aside, maybe my thoughts are better fit for this, shorter, genre. Also, I think this audiobook idea is rad... does anybody agree?
Edit: Oh... Yeah, I'll have to get some good sound-recording equipment, I guess, and improve my pronunciation, to realise the idea to its full potential.
Post by: Talanic on November 14, 2010, 10:31:02 am
Post by: Supermikhail on November 14, 2010, 11:05:39 am
Post by: Talanic on November 14, 2010, 03:01:07 pm
Other than that, I could direct you to a small sci fi / fantasy anthology that I assisted with.
Post by: Fishbreath on November 15, 2010, 01:43:10 am
Meh.
What about this: Try to have the most silly/humorous story taken seriously. Cope with an exceedingly non-serious topic and make it so.
Or what about the other way around?
I very much like this idea--it reminds me of the Fool's Guild in Discworld. I'll try and come up with a good framing story during the day, and whether or not I do I'll write something tonight anyway.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 15, 2010, 02:02:21 pm
I’m going to tell here what I know. Only the truth, plain and unbent.
There once lived a man in Rome named Marcus Julius who was a soldier under Emperor Tiberius. In 25 AD, at the age of 23 he was assigned to Legio XII Fulminata that was stationed in Syria. In 28 AD Marcus Julius moved to Jerusalem, under the command of Pontius Pilate. And as you know, in 30 AD came to Jerusalem a man whose life and death would change the face of the Western civilization - Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus who was crucified in front of Jerusalem for his teachings about one God, omnipotent and omnipresent. Marcus Julius was one of the soldiers who stood guard around the place of crucifixion, and he was unmoved, a true son of the Empire. Pontius Pilate had special trust in him. It is maybe why three nights from then he was stationed with another trusted soldier in front of the tomb where Jesus’ body was placed. On that night their lives were changed, as angels of God came down and took the Son of God with them, all in view of the two guards. That was the truth of their eyes and they could not deny it, but they did what was their duty. The elders and Pilate were informed of the things that happened at the tomb, and the elders feared that people would beat them and Pilate ordered the soldiers to say nothing. And so Marcus Julius said nothing of what he saw that night to anyone.
For ten years Marcus Julius kept the truth inside him, while Jesus’ apostles rose around, spreading the Gospel to people. On his duty, ordered by Pilate, then by Marcellus, he went after the most audacious of Jesus’ followers with sword and fire. It is not known what exactly triggered it, but on the eleventh year Marcus broke, and became mentally ill. On his condition, and due to his good record, he was sent back to Rome, to rest and recover. Of course, the great city, with all its pleasures, couldn’t provide the relief he needed. On the contrary, observing his fellow citizens, so far from the teachings of Jesus, Marcus grew even more grim. But he did not dare to open to anyone, or legionary vows were so strong in him that no degree of pain could make him break them. His body grew weak, though, and betrayed him. One day bleeding wounds opened on his body, on his feet and hands, in the places where nails pierced Jesus’ body when He was crucified. A physician was summoned to help Marcus, and was confused by his condition. The physician dressed the wounds, but couldn’t heal them. Marcus became delirious and lay in bed for days, tended by his servants. At night, when all were asleep, he rose and, his wounds opened again, began writing in blood on a wall. His servants discovered him, in horror, lying on the floor, exhausted, next to the wall strewn with bloody words. Exhausted, but at ease, and sleeping soundly. The servants went after the physician, and he tended to Marcus, but noted the writings on the wall which reminded him of an obscure, but dangerous religion, and told the servants to scrub the writings off carefully.
For several days Marcus was calm, but then started raging. He tossed around on his bed and beat the servants. The physician ordered him tied down, and a friend called upon the help of a witch. The witch came with herbs and candles, and sung behind shut curtains. The servants waited in trepidation outside. After a few hours they heard the witch scream in fear. Rushing inside, they saw that the wounds on Marcus’ body were dripping blood on the sheets, and where the drops touched the fabric, a flame sprung. The servants tried to take Marcus out of the flame, but were burned by his blood.
The flame was then seen from the street, and people ran up to help extinguish it. However, they could do nothing, as Marcus walked around spreading fire and ash. To stop him from burning the city down, soldiers came, beat Marcus and took him with them. They put him into a stone cell, where he only could collect soot from his blood. But that didn’t stop him, and soon all the walls were covered in Christian writings. Of course, they weren’t enough to release all that collected in his soul since the night at Jesus’ tomb. A cell was not enough, a house was not enough... His anguish must have been answered by God then, because on the next night, soldiers heard a loud noise, and coming to Marcus’ cell, saw that a part of a wall had crumbled, and next to a hole there was a writing in blood - “Walls cannot hold me.”
To be continued...
Also, today I stumbled on an interesting, but quite long article by Philip Dick - "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm) There is an idea in the beginning that I like very much - it's fun when a universe falls apart. Only I'm not sure characters I create are going to be able to cope with it.
Edit, I guess: I tried recording some Chains of Loss today, and, yeah... I definitely need better equipment for that. Although I thought about the option of using a photocamera (even it gives less noise) and speaking over my cat washing herself on a sofa.
Post by: Talanic on November 15, 2010, 04:25:18 pm
Oh, and that reminds me, while I started to work on putting up today's update (in which we meet Lydia, previously referenced!) I got sidetracked by various chores. Back on task now!
Post by: Supermikhail on November 16, 2010, 09:08:53 am
By the way, I've remembered that I actually have a whole bunch of different mikes, and the one I tried might not be the best (even if the price wants to say otherwise... although to be fair, I haven't been to gentle in handling it). So, another mike sounds to me much better. But Ruglish, or Ruslish, if you prefer, is still bad. And how the hell do you pronounce "taerlae"? And for that matter, the rest of weird names. :)
Post by: Supermikhail on November 19, 2010, 10:30:38 am
Basically, some time when I have some free time, I'd like to make a thread with a title "Hire Me" the purpose of which would not be to earn me money. It would, actually, have nothing to do with real money and be located in "Forum Games and Roleplaying", probably. Or maybe in "Creative Projects". In any case it would contain sort of a game. I'm going to compare it to "Monopoly" although I haven't played this game (well, that's the only economy game that comes to mind). It would work like this:
- there are Craftsmen and Customers.
- Customers come to the game with infinite amounts of credits that they can give to...
- Craftsmen who have limited amounts of credits and are pretty poor to start with.
- Customers give credits to Craftsmen to perform orders that they come up with freely and randomly (like in a request thread). Orders can be in several categories: Art, Music, Writing, Software, Film.
- A Craftsman has an idea and places a commission. A Craftsman who considers himself capable of executing it, picks it up. During the time of execution the Craftsman expends some amount of Credits. Once the commission is done, the Customer evaluates it, and if they are satisfied, they pay the Craftsman some credits, depending on the category.
- But if the Craftsman doesn't complete it (in time or at all) or if the Customer isn't satisfied, the Craftsman doesn't get paid.
- If the Craftsman runs out of credits, he/she can't take new orders and has to sit on a dole for some time.
I guess some more competitive incentive for Customers could be added. And on afterthought, a better name would be Executives, or something.
So, the categories. No real money involved, so no 300 page novels or 2 hour action movies. Something requiring just a bit of effort, but still some. Like a 5 000 word story, a 7 day roguelike, a 3 minute short or song. And art... well, as specified in the order, but no densely populated cityscapes, and the like.
So, just an idea. Really had to put it out here. Maybe someone else will like it and then I'll start thinking about doing it.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 20, 2010, 04:21:39 pm
Quote
Though we are but children, and childhood being something we are still experiencing,
Post by: Vector on November 20, 2010, 04:22:36 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 20, 2010, 04:26:26 pm
Post by: Vector on November 20, 2010, 04:28:55 pm
Post by: fqllve on November 20, 2010, 07:16:13 pm
Otherwise there are a few ways you can switch the tense around in clause 2 because the two uses of the present-in-present don't quite correspond in meaning. Experiencing focuses on the progressive aspect, the action began earlier and continues past the present moment. Being focuses on the fact that as of right now childhood is being experienced. I think that's what's making it so awkward.
Quote
and childhood being something we still experience
and (so) childhood is something we are still experiencing
and childhood something we still experience
I think option 2 sounds best with the preceding clause.
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 21, 2010, 05:49:39 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 21, 2010, 05:38:32 pm
Post by: Talanic on November 25, 2010, 10:21:18 pm
Oh, yeah! Although, the short chapters (unchapterly short, I might say) are working to detrimental effect. After all, fiction isn't the same as forum posts, and yeah, forum posting benefits from short, preferably witty, replies, fiction writing, I don't think so. I don't get immersed in such a short update, so I don't have any deep feelings for the story or the characters, I don't get involved, so I might not come back (don't worry, I will come back, after all, I intend to profit as an audiobook narrator on your writing ;)).
By the way, I've remembered that I actually have a whole bunch of different mikes, and the one I tried might not be the best (even if the price wants to say otherwise... although to be fair, I haven't been to gentle in handling it). So, another mike sounds to me much better. But Ruglish, or Ruslish, if you prefer, is still bad. And how the hell do you pronounce "taerlae"? And for that matter, the rest of weird names. :)
Note: I'm very tired, due to travelling through much of the holiday today (Thanksgiving, for those not in the USA).
Yup, I know the chapters are really quite short.
I don't see it as a bad thing overall. Sometimes I do want a chapter to be longer but it doesn't work, no matter what I do. Other times I think it's good to move on to the next perspective. I do wind up with some long chapters - mostly in the action sequences towards the end of the book.
If I used as much description as the typical fantasy author, the book would probably triple in size. But I don't think visually - it's one reason I didn't really consider trying to have you draw any of my characters or scenes in the drawing request thread, because I don't perceive the story in pictures. I think in narrative, dialogue, events and characters, but darned if I can even picture what any of the things look like.
Perhaps I'm writing more for the American attention spa-oooh, look! Squirrels!
Or maybe I just have a weird brain.
As far as pronunciation of the various names, most of them are supposed to be alien names that are just spelled very close to the way they sound, with no silent syllables. So taerlae is "tare lay". Sheralys is "share a lease". Vhaes is "vays" or "vies" - either one works, it's supposed to be a particularly alien word.
Too tired to make a full pronunciation guide tonight, sorry. But hope this helped.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 26, 2010, 05:41:53 am
...3 hours later. I hate you. Can't you see I'm an easily tempted person?
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/th_derek_sketch.jpg) (http://s949.photobucket.com/albums/ad333/Supermikhail/?action=view¤t=derek_sketch.jpg)
So, my thought process: New Athens - let's give him a Greek face. His cyborg suit is not visibly apparent - like normal clothes. But electronics always working - processes transpire on the surface like decoration.
I guess that would not be the regular state of the suit, though. Too noticeable. That might be the battle state - hence a lot of activity in critical zones.
About chapters. Well, as far as I can figure (based on example of some novel writing programs), what you post are scenes, not chapters. Well, because sets don't change, mostly. And by the size - for me a comfortable size for a chapter would be 5-10,000 words. Or by content - there's one action per post the way you do it, and a chapter is supposed to have a bit more content.
That pronunciation makes sense and at the same time is weird. Humans would probably transcribe aliens' words, but this doesn't look very much like transcription. Well, what can you do with fantasy writers. ;)
Edited with a properly scanned version.
Post by: Talanic on November 27, 2010, 12:15:48 am
My fiancee is particularly amused by the 'codpiece' area. Everyone who's seen it so far thinks the face is spot-on.
Also, you've just produced the very first illustration of any of my characters. My first fanart!? Sweet.
If you like, sign into http://www.treeofworlds.net/irc/erfworld.html - a number of others in there read my stories as well, and one of them (Telva) is inclined to clean up your drawing, reducing scanner glare, etc. With your permission, of course.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 27, 2010, 02:30:56 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on November 27, 2010, 04:58:42 pm
Just need a subject and a description.
Post by: Talanic on November 27, 2010, 11:37:37 pm
Rob is actually the one who advised me to serialize my novel. He's been quite the support.
Also, does this mean that the Engravers' Guild will have to start taking story requests to keep up?
Post by: Supermikhail on November 28, 2010, 04:42:45 am
So, yeah, the Engravers Guild doesn't really keep up with modern trends... I mean, I don't go to the Engravers Guild often, so if you, for some reason, want me specifically to make an illustration, you should make a request here.
Oh, IRC boings my brains. I don't think I'll be visiting that Erf chat often, although there seems to be a pretty nice crowd. And I don't dig the comic particularly, but Rob's dedication seems pretty amazing.
Quick edit. lordnincompoop, did you learn nothing from my example? You don't have a description. You have a stretch of text, with action and dialogue, and your imagination. 8)
Post by: Talanic on November 30, 2010, 12:30:10 am
Post by: MrWiggles on November 30, 2010, 12:46:06 am
Its center on three heros, Kyle/Proton man, Zak, and Rush/Ryan. We get to see the affects of heroism on the characters both physical and mental. They fight off an alien invasion, ninjas, giant mekas, a demon and finally themselves. As the time spent defending the world has changed each them dramatically enough where they can't let each other continue to operate seeing each others methods to be detrimental.
One of them looses a hand, another becomes blind. Two of them retire from hero'ing and one of them dies.
This is the Overview Outline of the story;
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfb9vxvt_32f838g4f2
This is the first saga outline;
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfb9vxvt_34cr9z3kgz
In this outline, I've started to break up into its individual issues, and its 90% done.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 30, 2010, 04:12:58 am
MrWiggles, I remember you! And like the last time, my appreciation of your idea is hindered by your spelling. Also, for formatting purposes I recommend Celtx (http://celtx.com/). They've got a nice comic template, which would help readability greatly. One more issue I've got is I can't quite figure out what genre your story is supposed to be. Well, you say it's high action, but then it's titled Legacy Awry, and you list adversaries of your heroes that I can but think were driven by humor.
Post by: MrWiggles on November 30, 2010, 05:34:48 am
The chief inspiration is Dragonball and DBZ, which is rift with subtle humor (well the humor elements got subtle as Toriyama went into Z.)
The name Proton Man, is a bit silly. However, the reason for his super hero persona is not. As we discover during Kyle backstory exposition during the Invasion Saga, we discover that even though Kyle has impressive martial prowess, he doesn't do anything with it, except support himself and his long term girl friend, Maxine, through underground pit fighting. She wanted Kyle to do something more productive with his ability, to try his hand at vigilantism. Kyle really balks at the idea, until she is beaten to near death trying to stop a mugging. This ended their relationship. As they both blamed Kyle for her injuries. Kyle was going to propose to her that night, and she was pregger with their child. Though Kyle didn't know this. In an act of penitence for his inaction, he starts to wear the ill fitting home made costume. Which Kyle GF put together from thrift stores and glitter glue. The name Proton Man, was something thought up on the spot under stress. And Kyle, superhero persona has been stuck with it ever since.
Silly name, but not really a silly background.
They do get back together in five or so years. And Maxzine and Kyle daughter is one of the protagonist of Legacy sequel, if it ever gets that far. Along with Zak's daughter. Rush, doesn't get a kid though. No nookie for him.
Zak, is just a nickname. Alexander Zakia Tanner. Though the name means more or less; Man's Pure Defender. Alexander mean Man's Defender, and Zakia means pure. Tanner, beside the job title, doesn't have any particular meaning for the name.
Ryan is just an average name really. Nothing going on there. Rush, his more popular moniker is his hacker handle. There are some personality ties with it as well.
The Xantos villain, Andrew Tenelby. He is either the direct or indirect cause of every saga except two. Andrew simply means man, meaning that man is the overall villain of the story. Tenelby doens't have any significant etymology that I'm aware of. I picked it because, Mr. Tenelby sounds unassuming, and none threatening.
Xethorian and Tirn, are the two most prominent aliens, and therefore get exotic names.
Xethorian, and Tirn being a part of the evil alien race, are mostly justified in their actions from their POV. Their species uses a caste system, and Xethorian is the second highest tier. More or less ruling nobility, though his family is in decline. Tirn is a cousin of his, but of a lower caste. In order for the family, and Xeth to gain standing with his social peers is to gain a new domain. How this is dome with their race, is through self-funding and getting pledges to take over another planet. Which would then become a city state to the empire overall.
As for the aimed Genre of the piece it is; Science Fantasy High Action Martial Art drama. It just happens to have comedic elements thrown in.
But yea, most stories could use comic elements. Comedic elements serve well to break and deflate tension happening during scenes, and allows the audience to relax and for the tension to rebuild again.
I am using Celtx, though it doesnt have an outline feature that I particularly like. The formating for comic books within it, is a great time saver.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 30, 2010, 06:51:39 am
Post by: Talanic on November 30, 2010, 10:51:06 am
Talanic: Too bad not a lot has happened in your story until now! :-\ That is, not a lot to draw, except hiking couples, party camping tents and dark dungeons. I have thought about Mycah visage, but I'm not very confident in my female drawing skills. And as long as it's about females, I don't think I'm prepared to narrate your book - my "untamed femme fatale" voice is kind of lacking. I'd much prefer to have a real female do her part, but I have no suitable candidates among my acquaintances (most girls I know don't speak English very well, to say the least).
Yeah, I get what you mean. I think the next scene might be sketch-worthy, though...you'll know what I mean.
Although, even if it is sketch-worthy, it won't really be indicative of the rest of the book.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 30, 2010, 01:51:03 pm
I've just had a nap and had to go reread the last chapter because I couldn't remember what it was about - oh yeah, something silly. Man, you really should have given that ice more attention. I don't know, description, or suspense-wise. And I hope you can feel a little about the situation with short chapters. By the way, I've read that for something to go into long-term memory, you have to first keep it in short-term memory for at least 20 minutes. Guess how long it took me to read last chapter? Well, I don't know either, but Calculator tells me around 3 minutes. And you didn't finish on a cliff-hanger, so I didn't have much emotional incentive to keep thinking about it.Talanic: Too bad not a lot has happened in your story until now! :-\ That is, not a lot to draw, except hiking couples, party camping tents and dark dungeons. I have thought about Mycah visage, but I'm not very confident in my female drawing skills. And as long as it's about females, I don't think I'm prepared to narrate your book - my "untamed femme fatale" voice is kind of lacking. I'd much prefer to have a real female do her part, but I have no suitable candidates among my acquaintances (most girls I know don't speak English very well, to say the least).
Yeah, I get what you mean. I think the next scene might be sketch-worthy, though...you'll know what I mean.
Although, even if it is sketch-worthy, it won't really be indicative of the rest of the book.
...Erm. I feel that I've run this thing with length into the ground to the point of compulsion... but a man has to criticise something, right?
Post by: Talanic on November 30, 2010, 02:12:53 pm
You complain about it because it bothers you and lessens your immersion. I need to take that seriously. I'm going to do what I can.
Post by: Supermikhail on November 30, 2010, 02:28:15 pm
Post by: Talanic on November 30, 2010, 02:39:26 pm
I'll consider posting more - you yourself shot down two updates a week on separate days, but perhaps two chapters together would work better if the chapters are smaller. But how small is too small?
Post by: Supermikhail on November 30, 2010, 03:05:57 pm
Post by: Talanic on November 30, 2010, 06:15:45 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on December 01, 2010, 04:52:53 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on December 01, 2010, 03:17:56 pm
Right after my exams finish. >.>
Post by: Supermikhail on December 01, 2010, 03:28:18 pm
I'm not sure you're asking for advice, though, so whatever.
Post by: lordnincompoop on December 01, 2010, 03:30:20 pm
Post by: fqllve on December 01, 2010, 03:33:27 pm
No, not what I meant. I meant that IF the chapters aren't among my few large chapters, THEN two chapters, posted at the same time on Monday, would be better than what I'm doing right now. So I'd like to get your opinion on how much you'd think I should put in an update as a minimum - 1k words? 1.5k, 2k?
It's probably best to focus on a Conflict-Resolution cycle than any hard word limit. Personally, my scenes tend to run about 1k minimum, so if I wrote in chapters they'd be between 3-and-7k words. About the length of a decent short story.
Yeaaah... Fanfiction about fanfiction is always a great idea. If you're just going to ramble, why not ramble about something random. Ramble-storming ideas seems to me a better idea.
I'm not sure you're asking for advice, though, so whatever.
Seconded. I've tried writing fanfiction and it's actually pretty damn boring. Just goof around.
Post by: mendonca on December 05, 2010, 01:13:50 pm
Any critique gratefully received!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on December 05, 2010, 08:32:02 pm
Quote
I've tried writing fanfiction and it's actually pretty damn boring
Sounds more like you just sort of chose fanfiction for fanfiction. There is more to chosing the right thing to creating a fanfiction of then your pure love for the medium. It is one of the reason why writers who are told what to write tend to do less well, despite their talents, then anything they get into themselves.
Though I can't really talk... I havn't really wrote... well... anything ever.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 06, 2010, 11:46:55 am
...
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...
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"The sense of freedom on leaving the fortress was completely liberating". I just want to say that it's the most bullshit redundancy I've met in quite a while. :P
...
...
...
...
Well, amusing ending. However, all the fancy flourish of minute details in the beginning is lost on me. After reading Willfor's NaNo I don't care for anything but emotions, and action. I'm probably a follower of Poe now. And your passage didn't evoke any emotions in me up until the sorcerer, that is, for about 2/3 of it. While yes, it is far above average for this forum, I think it fails in real literature. You could have used less flourish and more characterisation, Grax feels pretty gray and generic. He could have his own speech patterns and gestures instead of generic brushing his coat against a chair.
-
Neonivek: Well, fanfiction has its draws. I dabbled in it once, I will even admit that it was Harry Potter, and how I wanted the series to end. By the way, I thought my ending was awesome, and that was basically my draw to do it - I was kind of afraid that the real ending would suck, which it did, but I didn't care anymore when the book came out. Relatedly, another draw is that you can spend only so much time reading your favourite book and characters, and you want more, and another book is so far away, so your brain becomes fixated on it. What I can't understand is what is the draw to write fanfiction about Gordon Freeman? He's a video game character without any personality whatsoever, goddammit!
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Going back
It's probably best to focus on a Conflict-Resolution cycle than any hard word limit. Personally, my scenes tend to run about 1k minimum, so if I wrote in chapters they'd be between 3-and-7k words. About the length of a decent short story.
Rather Resolution-Conflict when we're talking about updates on the Internet. You want to draw people in, and what a better way than ending on a cliffhanger?
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2010, 11:50:47 am
Read it, dudes. It will fix a lot of the issues the B12 writing group has as a whole.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 06, 2010, 12:04:45 pm
You're aware that B12 writing group has variable membership? No single book will fix anything. I'll add it to the OP, though.
Post by: mendonca on December 06, 2010, 12:19:17 pm
Quote from: Supermikhail
"The sense of freedom on leaving the fortress was completely liberating". I just want to say that it's the most bullshit redundancy I've met in quite a while. :P
Oh yeah ... didn't spot that one!
Quote from: Supermikhail
flourish ... lost on me
I'm not overly happy with this section either and it doesn't have the effect I was going for, perhaps a rethinking is necessary
Quote from: Supermikhail
You could have used less flourish and more characterisation, Grax feels pretty gray and generic. He could have his own speech patterns and gestures instead of generic brushing his coat against a chair.
Hmm .. yeah .. I think I already knew this, to be honest. By you spelling it out, it perhaps points out to me that it has more importance than I was willing to attach to it. Especially when the story hangs generally off this guy.
Much appreciated, supermikhail, you are a prince among men.
Quote from: Vector
Lajos Egri
I'll take that as a recommendation, I need some more christmas presents from the wife!
Post by: fqllve on December 06, 2010, 03:06:51 pm
Sounds more like you just sort of chose fanfiction for fanfiction. There is more to chosing the right thing to creating a fanfiction of then your pure love for the medium. It is one of the reason why writers who are told what to write tend to do less well, despite their talents, then anything they get into themselves.
Nope. I chose it because I wanted to ape the story to learn about it. Decided not to be constrained by it and allow myself freedom to write whatever I wanted. But in the end I realized that I didn't have anything to add, it was just rehashing somebody else's ideas. I didn't learn anything.
Rather Resolution-Conflict when we're talking about updates on the Internet. You want to draw people in, and what a better way than ending on a cliffhanger?
Well, that's what I meant. Use the Conflict-Resolution cycle as the basis for your updates. If you cut the update right at the climax that's leaving off at the peak of the cycle.
Basically "go by plot not by word count."
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2010, 04:35:43 pm
You're aware that B12 writing group has variable membership? No single book will fix anything. I'll add it to the OP, though.
Of course I am. I also know that it's the single best book I've ever read on plotting and characterization, and that I haven't read anything here that was blindingly stellar in either.
Post by: Talanic on December 06, 2010, 06:07:14 pm
The funny thing is, the chapter AFTER the current one is already 2.5k words...and was one of the most fun chapters to write.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 07, 2010, 03:53:52 am
And I'm not implying that Lajos Egri is a crappy step-by-step manual. Any book that tries to teach writing. In the end, whatever they say, writing isn't about grammar, sentence structure, repetition, acts etc. It's about ideas. You can't teach a person to have an awesome idea. They have to know it. And most know it when they set out writing, but get bogged down in sleepless nights, asshole superiors, shitty TV-shows, and "helpful" writing textbooks.
Talanic: Yeah, yesterday I go to my bookmarks and what the hell? Where's my weekly piece of sci-fi? However, I foresee that a double update is going to be a worthy compensation.
Post by: Vector on December 07, 2010, 04:11:43 am
And I'm not implying that Lajos Egri is a crappy step-by-step manual. Any book that tries to teach writing. In the end, whatever they say, writing isn't about grammar, sentence structure, repetition, acts etc. It's about ideas. You can't teach a person to have an awesome idea. They have to know it. And most know it when they set out writing, but get bogged down in sleepless nights, asshole superiors, shitty TV-shows, and "helpful" writing textbooks.
Right. In this case, it says "Once you have an idea--something you want to express--here is how to make sure that the audience will feel tension and interest in your work, and feel it is believable."
I don't think it's a good book to read in your moment of passion. I think it's a book to read right when you feel like giving up writing, when you don't know what to do anymore. That's when one should read manuals on writing, to provide a little bit of motivation and advice.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 07, 2010, 04:36:23 am
Post by: Vector on December 07, 2010, 04:39:22 am
Maybe I'm speaking mostly to people like myself ^_^;; But, if there are any on here, then maybe the recommendation will help.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 07, 2010, 05:16:27 am
Post by: Vector on December 07, 2010, 05:19:23 am
There probably are. But at the same time, there's a lot of very poor people. ;)
Er... I'm not fully sure I understand. What does poverty have to do with a book recommendation?
Post by: Supermikhail on December 07, 2010, 05:32:42 am
Well, not that I don't agree entirely, but just to keep some tension. When you feel like giving up writing, you've got problems with your life, not your writing! Or you don't have the problems that made you write in the first place. In any case, story structure won't help you there. Go talk to your wife, kids or president. Or give away all your money and live in the street for a month, that's what you've got to do.
There probably are. But at the same time, there's a lot of very poor people. ;)
Post by: Vector on December 07, 2010, 05:35:40 am
Post by: Talanic on December 07, 2010, 02:08:45 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on December 08, 2010, 08:08:44 am
Disappointment, sir. Disappointment. In blatant violation of Dialogue Regulations p. 2C "Character Confusion", you've failed to identify characters to resort to sexual innuendo instead of quality writing to appeal to your readers. I am forced to ask you to amend this immediately... ;D
>:( Seriously, that was silly (although I understand that it's popular with modern fantasy fans), the chapter's still short for its actual content, not length (conflict-resolution seems is getting more and more appealing), and the ending bit of dialogue, almost completely untagged, is confusing as hell.
Also, I come home and find a bunch of writing threads pop up here. It's either a drought or a flood, and nobody cares for my schedule.
Post by: Talanic on December 08, 2010, 07:19:56 pm
I'm only operating at about 10% capacity, though. So keep in mind that the problem might just be me.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 09, 2010, 05:58:25 am
Quote from: Talanic
“Just, keep an eye on the dealer if he’s wearing long sleeves?”Do you find it easy to tell whose words are whose? I actually still can't grasp the content of this exchange because I don't have a mental image of the speaker... Or maybe I read too fast. But that's how fast I'm going to read if I'm interested in what I'm reading.
“Give it a rest!”
“Is that why it’s called p—”
“Finish that joke and I will slap you. I swear!”
“Or do you prefer stud?”
In general, I find that such short exchange doesn't work too well in fiction, because you need to attach an image to the words, probably, and you kind of don't have enough time. It works in musicals, but there you can see the speakers, and it all has a tempo, and music.
In short, that sexual bickering comes off amateurish, but as long as you aim your writing at teenagers on the Internet, it rocks.
And when people warn be about something, I'm more than likely to do just the opposite, so I hope you can gather some coherent meaning from my reply.
Post by: fqllve on December 10, 2010, 04:38:09 pm
It's about dreams and reality presented as a bleak surrealistic fairy tale and following a girl and her brother who have an innate aptitude for permeating barriers.
It's a short story and runs around 4000 words.
Spoiler: star sequent (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vertigon on December 10, 2010, 10:13:07 pm
Spoiler: The Insane Ramblings of a Flu-Stricken, Sleep-Deprived Man (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Analysis (click to show/hide)
Clocked at about 1000 words, I think. So dig in, and enjoy! Also criticize. Lots.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 11, 2010, 02:56:09 am
So I could use some objective (and harsh) criticism. But since I want to get this particular story ready for submission I can't just go ahead and post the whole thing. The best thing I could come up with is to post an excerpt and offer to send the rest to anyone who is interested.Hey, grammar anarcho-communist, not enough grammar :P First, the sentence second to last apparently should be in the present tense. Second, why no capitals? Third, the second paragraph kind of falls out. In the sense that I couldn't get into it - the other paragraphs are sort of objective, descriptive, this one is abstract, a sharp transition, unwelcome by the brain. Fourth, I hope that's not how it starts. Neither the way it goes, nor, and especially, the way it starts, contributes to immersion. I'm not sure if you don't intend it this way, but putting a name here and there could be helpful. Or something to tell who the protagonist is, besides the gender.
It's about dreams and reality presented as a bleak surrealistic fairy tale and following a girl and her brother who have an innate aptitude for permeating barriers.
It's a short story and runs around 4000 words.Spoiler: star sequent (click to show/hide)
Vertigon, gonna read the ramblings after I come back from the Uni.
Post by: Vertigon on December 11, 2010, 04:03:14 am
Post by: Supermikhail on December 11, 2010, 11:44:35 am
Spoiler: The Insane Ramblings of a Flu-Stricken, Sleep-Deprived Man (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Analysis (click to show/hide)
Clocked at about 1000 words, I think. So dig in, and enjoy! Also criticize. Lots.
What can I say? That seems a good way above ramblings of a flu-stricken, sleep-deprived man. I mean, pretty coherent. ::)
However, first, you want a dash, not a hyphen, as explained in this article (http://grammartips.homestead.com/dash.html). Second, now that you've done it like that I'm not very sure, but still, the story structure you were going for is similar to the structure of a joke - you have the setup and the punchline, except that it's not funny (well, some people might find the story so). And just like with a joke, you have neither any time to waste, nor can you be too hasty - both can ruin the punchline (unfortunately, can't come up with a good example right now). You have to be skilled in directing attention, too... To cut to the chase, the joke is kind of long, also it's confusing when you don't indicate in any way that it's Urist who thinks that "he crafted artifacts of immense value". The story isn't attached to Urist enough, to do it itself... Well, and you have to try pretty hard to express all you've listed under Analysis, in 1000 words. To come close, you have to make Urist much more important, get into his head, etc.
I'll venture to conclude with praise, and say that it's actually a pretty fresh twist, at least for DF.
Post by: fqllve on December 11, 2010, 03:17:24 pm
Hey, grammar anarcho-communist, not enough grammar :P First, the sentence second to last apparently should be in the present tense. Second, why no capitals? Third, the second paragraph kind of falls out. In the sense that I couldn't get into it - the other paragraphs are sort of objective, descriptive, this one is abstract, a sharp transition, unwelcome by the brain. Fourth, I hope that's not how it starts. Neither the way it goes, nor, and especially, the way it starts, contributes to immersion. I'm not sure if you don't intend it this way, but putting a name here and there could be helpful. Or something to tell who the protagonist is, besides the gender.
Haha, would you believe that I actually both love and study grammar? And that it's actually from the third revised draft so there shouldn't be a single grammatical error in it?
1- That's supposed to be in past. It's basically the narrator reflecting on everything that happened in the paragraph before they collide. Is it too distracting?
2- Haha There aren't any apostrophes either. That's just how I write. If it hadn't have already been typed up I probably would have added them though, since I already use both on the forums anyway.
3- Yeah, I was trying to echo her transition there, which is equally abrupt. But it doesn't really seem to add anything does it? I wonder if it works better in context. (e: After thinking about it, I'm going to replace that paragraph with scene setting)
4- No it's not the beginning, it's from the middle of the first scene. Most of the preceding text is spent on characterizing her, although I don't think she gets named until the second scene.
Anyway, thank you, that was exactly the type of criticism I need.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 11, 2010, 03:52:52 pm
1. I don't think it works like that... You're sort of in the present *continuous* and, well, switching slightly to the past... has to be too quantum-physics for any reader.
2. Er. But then, it's for submission? Hey, tell me about this place! I actually hate this <Shift> button!
3. It might work better in context. If the context has some mind-bwargling equal or greater than this. Basically, how it works - I can generate a mental image out of other two paragraphs, but I've got no idea how to imagine memories plucked out of a person's skull, much less some "parts". It could help if it was clear parts of what were plucked out. I imagine it's parts of skull, and the horror imagery kind of doesn't fit with the rest of the narrative.
4. Okay. Although between your story and Vertigon's I find myself suddenly tending to the point of view that the reader needs a character he/she can relate to very much. Before I kind of didn't care, because I wanted to be original in everything. And from your two stories I deduce that critical aspects of this relation are a distinct personality, including a name, and a consistent point-of-view. Thank you very much, I guess, for this revelation. ;)
Post by: fqllve on December 11, 2010, 04:23:47 pm
2- This isn't the submission draft. That'll probably be d5, which will be retyped. But let's be honest about my chances at publication anyway.
3- Haha, well I'm getting rid of it anyway, but yeah a little more imagery there would have been good. It's supposed to be that she forgets herself, and the "pieces of herself" are facets of her personality. Because we go into dreams with little to no context.
4- =/ That's a little unfair. Actually, my biggest concern is that the story focuses too much on her. Nearly half the sentences in it are about her thoughts and actions. It's just that I liked calling her the girl.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 11, 2010, 04:31:20 pm
4. Spice it up with some more descriptions, I suspect that you frequently run into the problem of repetitive sentence structure if it's nearly all on her, and you prefer to use pronouns.
Post by: fqllve on December 11, 2010, 06:06:00 pm
Post by: Vertigon on December 11, 2010, 07:31:22 pm
What can I say? That seems a good way above ramblings of a flu-stricken, sleep-deprived man. I mean, pretty coherent. ::)
However, first, you want a dash, not a hyphen, as explained in this article (http://grammartips.homestead.com/dash.html). Second, now that you've done it like that I'm not very sure, but still, the story structure you were going for is similar to the structure of a joke - you have the setup and the punchline, except that it's not funny (well, some people might find the story so). And just like with a joke, you have neither any time to waste, nor can you be too hasty - both can ruin the punchline (unfortunately, can't come up with a good example right now). You have to be skilled in directing attention, too... To cut to the chase, the joke is kind of long, also it's confusing when you don't indicate in any way that it's Urist who thinks that "he crafted artifacts of immense value". The story isn't attached to Urist enough, to do it itself... Well, and you have to try pretty hard to express all you've listed under Analysis, in 1000 words. To come close, you have to make Urist much more important, get into his head, etc.
I'll venture to conclude with praise, and say that it's actually a pretty fresh twist, at least for DF.
Yeah, the problem was that I wasn't all that interested in Urist, and I involved him in the story way too much. It's not so much about him as it is Irongates, and to an extent the artifact.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 12, 2010, 04:59:20 am
Oh, were you actually curious? I thought you were just making fun of me, haha. I haven't picked a particular journal yet, but I planned to start with ones that publish experimental fiction, then run through SF publications, and end up with a free online journal. The last is the only one I have any confidence that it'll be accepted for though.Hm. Correct my Ruslish, please, but didn't you mean "magazine", not "journal"? And I guess I was just curious, as I myself haven't looked into any magazines (journals?) to publish my works in - for some reason I want to start with a novel. Actually, I prefer reading novels to reading short stories, at least when I'm not on the Internet, I guess that's a reason.
Yeah, the problem was that I wasn't all that interested in Urist, and I involved him in the story way too much. It's not so much about him as it is Irongates, and to an extent the artifact.Yeah, should have omitted Urist then. The name gives him quite a bit of importance.
Post by: fqllve on December 12, 2010, 11:59:39 am
And I prefer to read novels too. It's nice to sit down with a short story collection every once in a while, but novels are the bread and butter of fiction. They're so much harder to write though.
Post by: Vertigon on December 12, 2010, 01:32:04 pm
Yeah, the problem was that I wasn't all that interested in Urist, and I involved him in the story way too much. It's not so much about him as it is Irongates, and to an extent the artifact.Yeah, should have omitted Urist then. The name gives him quite a bit of importance.
Mmkay, thanks :D
Every little bit helps
Post by: Supermikhail on December 16, 2010, 04:16:34 am
Basically, what I can't decide is if I should remove the mediocre stuff and drafts? Can it be somehow useful to me/others in the future?
Post by: Supermikhail on December 19, 2010, 05:42:53 am
Post by: fqllve on December 20, 2010, 02:05:42 am
I dunno what would make a good project, but I wouldn't try anything over 40,000 words.
e: Gimmicks would probably be fine for that since your goal is to make something chemical not literature.
Post by: Supermikhail on December 20, 2010, 08:26:27 am
-
So, despite myself, I've actually written some fanfiction recently. In screenplay form. You can check it out in this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73418.0)
Post by: Supermikhail on December 23, 2010, 09:42:47 am
-
And got an idea - possibly weird, hopefully good - that the guild could use a wiki. The Library has failed in its purpose, it appears, so I've got an idea to transfer it to a wiki. I see immense benefits to it - not the least of which is that it would be much easier to search for and illustrate them. And possibly the layout could be made more readable.
Another benefit, debatable, I must admit, is that stories would be easier to edit, or transfer or distribute editing rights to other people than the original author, as some of them suffer from bad grammar and the original author either doesn't know how or doesn't want to correct it.
Yet another benefit is in the special fitness for community stories.
I've had my eye on Google sites for some time, and would be hoping to use their wiki preset for this purpose.
Post by: Talanic on December 26, 2010, 10:47:51 am
The only story idea I have regarding chemistry is the tale of a chemist in a world full of superheroes. His keen observational skills allow him to actually defeat villains with his knowledge without resorting to brute strength (which often fails).
Post by: Repulsion on December 26, 2010, 06:26:13 pm
Anyways... about the chemical thing... A chemist rediscovering the secret to turn lead into gold among other things in the modern world? Or expand on that superhero idea that Talanic posted. Say... a chemical scientist living in a city overrun by crime, that builds some kind of module/suit/whatever that you wear on your arms or all of your body or whatever that actively allows you to combine chemicals and use them?
What I'm thinking of is hard to explain but imagine this: A thing that covers your arm and hand, and at the hand part is a active mixer that if you give some kind of signal, sends chemicals to your hand that can mix and be stored in a small storage container that is also around the hand, that can then be launched/fired/whatever out of a thing that is also on your hand... I don't know.
For the record, I know not much of chemistry, at all, and when it comes to writing I write mainly fiction, so if you want to write a chemistry book that is actually realistic and whatnot... not sure if I can help you there. But I did my best.
Post by: Don Blake on December 26, 2010, 10:54:33 pm
Post by: Willfor on December 26, 2010, 11:49:53 pm
LJ is doing a good enough job of keeping this out of google's cache, so I figure I might as well open it up for the time being. The first chapter of my NaNo (http://qyburnian.livejournal.com/3121.html). Promoted from prologue because I also promoted the main character of the chapter from "likely to be only survivor" to "leader of a new band of adventuring-type people."
There are lots of outline changes to be made. :(
Post by: Talanic on December 27, 2010, 03:48:28 pm
Things like, if facing creatures like those from Alien, making bullets that deliver a bead of baking soda (or a more powerful base) to the target's bloodstream, blowing up the critter with one shot (or at least causing a severe embolism) AND neutralizing the acidic blood.
Think of it along the lines of, "How would a chemist with no superpowers except a moderate amount of money take down Magneto?"
Post by: Repulsion on December 27, 2010, 06:47:02 pm
Post by: Talanic on December 29, 2010, 12:11:15 pm
Alternately, looking into creating insulating materials that can be thrown on him - if he's covered in an inch of inert polymers, he may have trouble projecting a magnetic field.
Really, my suggestion can probably be traced to a story (possibly true) from World War I that was recently in a Cracked.com article - that Canadian troops, facing a German gas attack, were ordered by a medic to pee on their shirts and breathe through the urine. I don't know for sure that urine would actually neutralize chlorine gas, but according to the story it worked, changing the tide of the battle. Chemistry can manage some pretty amazing things with the right materials on hand.
Post by: Repulsion on December 29, 2010, 09:56:25 pm
Anyways, does anyone have any good music for writing? When I write I usually listen to techno and other stuff with a good beat, and I recently stumbled upon this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Willfor on December 29, 2010, 11:40:07 pm
That songs does sound like good writing music to me, but for entirely different reasons. Thanks!
Post by: Fishbreath on December 30, 2010, 10:26:37 am
In my two-stage writing process, I never, ever listen to music when I'm putting words to paper for the first time. It gets in the way for me. I'll put something classical on when I'm going from paper to electronic, or very occasionally something that fits the mood of the section I'm typing.
Post by: KaguroDraven on January 03, 2011, 12:34:18 am
I am and aspiering writer, I have two main ideas in my head for books. A fantasy novel, and something that has a little bit of everything. I'm trying to write the fantasy one first but I'm running into a road block. I have the basics of the story down. I have several characters and even key events and political movements down. I'd prefer to atleast get a rough version out before I completely iron out the details. But I just can't start the damned thing. It's a serious case of writters block, I just can't tell how I should begin, or where, or even when in the book's story.
Post by: Willfor on January 03, 2011, 01:32:06 am
If at first it doesn't work, pick a different one. And then start writing again.
Continue doing this until you've got the start you want. It's okay to be completely unacceptable at first. The key to starting to write is to start to write. Writer's block is often you just not knowing what comes next. Pick something that comes next, anything, and start writing about it until it is no longer what comes next.
This is the hardest part of writing for a lot of people, and getting over the hard parts is key to being a writer.
Edit:
On a completely different subject, this (http://editminion.com/) can certainly be a giant kick to the crotch if you're not used to criticism. I need to work on my passive voice, it seems. Though I already kind of knew that.
Post by: Fishbreath on January 03, 2011, 07:14:38 am
I agree with the rule "don't end sentences with prepositions", and in fact I'll often rephrase things awkwardly to avoid it rather than breaking the rule where it makes sense, but I'm still reminded of the not-Churchill-but-commonly-attributed-to-him quote: "This is the sort of English up with which I shall not put."
Post by: Willfor on January 03, 2011, 10:17:05 am
Post by: Fishbreath on January 03, 2011, 11:03:21 am
Post by: Supermikhail on January 04, 2011, 08:06:55 am
Edit: Don't forget to visit their blog (http://www.writersandartists.co.uk/blog/).
Post by: Deus ex Machina on January 05, 2011, 05:04:40 am
I'll come out of lurking for a moment to share this (http://www.writersandartists.co.uk/short-story-competition-2011/). Smells fishy to me, because of only 2,000 words. But maybe the catch is in the topic?
Edit: Don't forget to visit their blog (http://www.writersandartists.co.uk/blog/).
"Compulsion".
What kind of compulsion? :|
I think I can manage, though, I have an idea brewing.
Post by: Repulsion on January 22, 2011, 06:38:34 pm
So I've been having some... kinda writers block lately. It's like, I guess you could say, boring to write lately. I already know what is going to happen in my writings, and one of the things that leads me on when writing is... what is going to happen? How is X going to accomplish Y? And that sort of stuff. Does anybody have any suggestions to getting past this?
Post by: mendonca on January 22, 2011, 07:04:44 pm
kill the main character off and see how everybody else reacts?
Invert the reputation (in some way, some action or revelation) of the main character and see how the character adapts?
Post by: Supermikhail on January 23, 2011, 01:04:57 am
'Twould seem to me that you are a rare person whom an extensive planning stage of writing doesn't fit. By that I assume that you plan your stories or whatever you're writing. That is, with index cards, tables, or something like that. In that case you would want to delete/throw away your planning materials, get away for a while, read a very long interesting book, have an affair, travel, work night shifts... if all above unavailable, write something else, but without planning, from a single vision of the beginning. I mean, it might be hard to take the story in a new direction with all that baggage in your head.
Or what mendonca said. After all, that you're bored writing might mean that the reader will be bored, too. You might need an unexpected twist. Both of you... For some reason I want to expand on this statement with saying that if you as a writer do not breach new, challenging territories, for the reader it will be same old, too.
And as long as I'm shirking my duties here, I might complain about my writing problems, as well. Which, as far as I can figure, amount to the following: I've written such a great introduction to my story that everything I write after it seems to be rubbish to me. So I can't write further. Any ideas?
P.S. Another consideration about Repulsion's situation. It appears that I'm quite a different kind of writer from him/her, in that what motivates me is really not the journey, but the finish, having told my story, and seeing it complete. I wonder if I'm a bad writer because of that.
Post by: Talanic on January 26, 2011, 12:11:14 am
I'm not sure what motivates me - unfortunately, it often seems like 'not much'. I like telling stories, and I love worldbuilding, and sometimes I can just sit down and crank out material, but usually it feels like so much trouble that I can't even manage to start.
Sometimes I look at my story and say, "You think you'll get a five-book series out of that?" And I think I'll never manage a thing.
Other days, I sit down and just start writing. And some of those days, it just...works.
Post by: cganya on January 29, 2011, 01:16:16 am
Brooding atop the outer wall of her school of war, Anya the last Snowdrifter contemplates a massive approaching army. Having survived for several decades in this wonder filled but dark fantasy world, Anya considers the wise words of her teacher. "Ask yourself: Who Am I? and you will learn much about yourself." Turning this practice towards strategy for the upcoming battle, Anya considers who she is and how she will protect her home.
linky: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=75873.0
Its not done yet, only finished 3 chapters so far but I plan to have about approximately 8 chapters total.
Post by: Supermikhail on January 29, 2011, 04:07:30 am
Post by: cganya on January 29, 2011, 10:24:17 am
I don't know what you expect to gain or whatever by linking it here; this thread is kind of almost dead, well, at least as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you want your story to be added to the library. I could do it, but really, by trial and error I've determined that nobody gains anything by it, and I've got serious doubts about the future of reading on the Internet in general. Although, if you're interested in critique, say so - I don't bother with stories on the forum anymore, because of the aforementioned doubts, and, I guess, personal issues, unless you explicitly say here that you want critique... I'll do what I can, whatever's my feedback worth, but I doubt anybody else will notice.
well, i had not noticed this thread before. I hope to read some of the stories in the library. having more people take a gander would be the goal but I'm always open to critique. I'm sure my writing could use many improvements both grammatically and by fleshing-out a neglected detail here and there. My chapters are typed out in 2-4 hour sittings and quickly edited and posted before i hit the "GET TO BED" stage of my night.
Post by: Supermikhail on January 30, 2011, 06:17:04 am
Well, then maybe I should rephrase my sentence - "serious doubts about the future of my reading on the Internet in general". Because it would appear that the vast majority of literary works on the Internet sucks. I mean isn't the lack of replies in a writing thread an indication of its quality? If people liked the writing, they would have said so, right? But if they were just too lazy to speak up, then what's the point of posting your story? Of course, because you are a charitable person, and want people to enjoy your writing. But how're you going to know if it's enjoyable?serious doubts about the future of reading on the Internet in general.
Please. The Internet will always be a place for people to deposit their works, especially things they know won't be picked up by publishers. And people read a great deal more than they comment on.
Sturgeon's Law is in full force, naturally.
Or, I guess, I didn't read deep enough into your reply. What you're saying is that the Internet is a big dump, and people are going to keep dumping their writing without any regard for its value?
I guess my rephrase still stands. Or I could say it like that even - "I've got serious concerns about the future of writing on the Internet.
Well, cganya. I may have one advice about increasing the activity in your thread - increase the frequency of your updates. First, it's going to appear more often in the Recent Topics, second, you'll have to break your chapters into shorter segments, and people with ADHD won't have to suffer so much :) The breaking down will take some finesse, though.
Another piece of advice which promises no impact on the readership is, watch your tenses. You chose to narrate in the present tense, but apparently through the power of habit, you write dialogue tags in the past. Frankly, I didn't notice it until the middle of the second post (that's why it won't have any impact on the readership), but if you look out for this mistake it'll save you a ton of editing afterwards... Er, yeah, read further - watch your tense.
About chapters. It might be silly, or it may end up silly, but generally division into genres is numerical, that is, up to 10,000 words it's short story, up to about 30,000-40,000 it's novella, after that novel, and I'm not sure how reasonable it is to divide a short story into chapters. What's in your thread now has clocked at around 4,500. Well, if you keep up your chapter size, and hold to your promise of 8 chapters, it'll run over the short story, but if I were you I'd refrain from chapter designation. Although it may be that the word "chapter" just has a special meaning to me.
I guess your thorough editing stage is in the future, and for that stage I've got an inconsistency: in the last update you write that the soul mending happens in some spirit world, but you kind of miss to introduce it. It's just "she reached deeper into the girl's body", which is, err, pretty oblique, considering you later describe it as if the spirit world possesses some pretty physical properties where people have bodies and can walk or fly (which is a physical action, despite not being easily possible in our world).
In general, your writing could use some more description. Like a few epithets for the bad guy. And for the protagonist, too. Right now they seem pretty generic. I suspect, though, that you're writing with a generic good guy (girl, whatever) and bad guy in mind. And we might as well call the protagonist Mary Sue (because it's easier to pronounce, obviously). You seem to realise it yourself. Well, it probably takes some skill to redeem your omni-guy (girl) in a backstory, or it's not possible at all. Anyway, I don't think the flashback works as intended. A conflict that is in the past, is in the past, it's another story. Fortunately, your story has a conflict, which is difficult choices of commander Anya. For some reason you choose to side-step into backstory, and it's going to seem nonsequitur, unless you connect it to the main conflict, or expand your story to a full-blown novel. Also there is an opinion that in a short story characters don't need so much character. So you might not bother with redeeming Anya. In a short story you've got just enough space to explain your idea, and it's in a novel that you let your characters to play with it.
So, you've got a good idea going, but there's some confusion with what you want to do with it.
Damn, I wanted to finish on a good point. Oh well. Also about your dialogue tags. That is, about your dialogue tags and action lines. A dialogue tag is a part of a sentence where speech is, and so should begin with a lower-case letter. When a verb in the "sentence" after speech denotes some form of talking, like "said and shouted", it's a dialogue tag. If it's some other action, like "shivered, smirked" or what have you, it's action and a different sentence, and so should begin with a capital letter.
Er... Like I was saying, you've got a good idea, and a good personal conflict, what's more, enough drive to produce regular updates. And not worry too much about editing right away, which is a healthy attitude. Er... Yeah, keep going.
Post by: Supermikhail on January 31, 2011, 02:43:03 am
...Okay, so I was right! And my desire to say goodbye to this forum is quite justified. If not for my code problems (which have been helped several times here (meaning programmers' thread)), and a crippling addiction to writing threads! :'(
I feel slightly and morbidly inclined to ask for a sample of your writing, if you don't mind.
Post by: cganya on February 03, 2011, 10:15:39 am
*critique snip*
Er... Like I was saying, you've got a good idea, and a good personal conflict, what's more, enough drive to produce regular updates. And not worry too much about editing right away, which is a healthy attitude. Er... Yeah, keep going.
I had read your critique several days ago but since then had been a bit busy and unable to really reply. Thank you for your critique, you raised a lot of good points, especially about my tenses and speech tags. I have always had trouble sticking to a tense for some reason and will probably have to spend quite a bit of time fixing one half or the other when I do a final edit. Your point on speech tags though I did not know at all and will put to good use. At first I did not understand the mechanics of what you were saying but I think I've got it now.
Now for the chapters thing. I never learned the official meaning or implementation of a chapter, only seen how they are used. In my story I'm using chapter breaks to begin new lines of thought or memories, as this story is focused on the main character's thoughts and memories.
I think I understand where you are coming from when you say "In general, your writing could use some more description. Like a few epithets for the bad guy. And for the protagonist, too." But there are a few points towards why I have avoided much description at all.
* The story was supposed to be short and to the point, descriptions of characters strike me as something mainly for longer works.
* I remember reading somewhere that description can be written in as it becomes necessary, this may or may not have been bad advice.
* The story takes place as mostly forethought on Anya's point of view (I guess that makes it present tense.) Since she does not know the description of the "bad guy" or his army yet, their description is not set in her mind.
* I really hate long character descriptions, I had to put down "The Hobbit" after the first several pages and walk away from a story everyone told me was great because the descriptions were just too much. There was no room for imagination filling the blanks and there was just paragraph after paragraph of nothing happening! I cant even remember if there was a hook for me to want to keep reading in those early chapters but I'm sure there was enough description to make a few statues. But anyways, I'm ranting.
I'll end on this; you said "you've got a good idea going, but there's some confusion with what you want to do with it."
This is the story of my life and applies to just about everything. Usually I just cant decide what to do and end up doing nothing. So I'll take your advice and keep doing what I'm doing for now.
Post by: Supermikhail on February 04, 2011, 10:12:29 am
cganya, well, my advice about chapters applies mostly to print, I guess (because on the Internet nobody cares). If you work is pretty short, and is frequently chapterized, it's going to look amateur, so, it you ever decide to publish, keep that in mind.
Yeah, descriptions are a matter of taste. I, personally, enjoy works on both ends of the range - the Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings; and works of Philip K. Dick, in whose stories the protagonist is basically never described, except through thoughts, if I may. But then, this mental description is quite extensive. So, it might be that description is required for fleshing out the story, but it can be of different kinds. Although, for your story I might have pushed it too far... because when you start finding flaws, you tend to find them everywhere.
Eugenitor, I've read it, and a good thing is that it's definitely not boring. ;) However, I've got a few criticisms to share.
If you choose to edit it, pay special attention to the dialogue at the beginning. Up until the first helicopter ride the boys end all their sentences with exclamation marks. Kind of funny.
You tend to switch viewpoints quite haphazardly sometimes. Like the helicopter ride, when we randomly get into the head of both boys, and then Blakesworth. It's pretty confusing, and you could easily handle the story with single carefully chosen protagonist.
Then, it might be debatable, but the scene where the Mom cleans up feels redundant. It's probably because not much happens in this scene, that is, no important information comes up, the Mom is not threatened in any way. It might be related to random view-point switching, because if we had a secure mental anchor, we might feel the scene to be justified just because the protagonist was there.
And finally, the very beginning - it might be tense, or viewpoint disconnect, but the social observation feels out of place and amateur. First, there is no character to tie it to, so, the author speaks up for the first and the last time in the narrative, or something.
Phew. Writing is rewriting.
Post by: Supermikhail on February 05, 2011, 12:53:34 am
About the first point. Don't you (or one of the boys) say later that they, being more mature than average six-year-olds, kind of scorn normal kids running around and yelling at the park or at the coaster, or something. That was my point. In the beginning they constantly yell like normal kids and swear like adults, but while the swearing gains consistency in the context, their expression of overexcitement doesn't follow through.
Actually, having thought about viewpoints some more - no, you don't see the reader as a free-floating spirit. I didn't feel like a free-floating spirit. You employ the traditional idea of viewpoints, and switch them haphazardly. For me to feel like a freefloating spirit, you'd have to monologize the characters' thoughts, with quotation marks and dialogue tags, probably. And do the whole thing in the present tense. That's how astral travel works. When it's in the past, it's narration. For narration you choose a protagonist, or no protagonist - then there's no inner thoughts at all - and the reader experiences the story through the eyes of the protagonist. Or observes it from the outside, if there is no protagonist. That's kind of how the majority of fiction works - the reader becomes the protagonist, and suddenly the protagonist's problems become the reader's problems, and the reader is immersed and interested. That's not to say that the reader can't switch to a different protagonist, but it requires time, and a lot of skill and effort on the part of the writer, and it can be accompanied by a chapter break or a similar break in the flow, to ease the switch. My favourite example of this is the Man In The High Castle by Philip Dick (who's my favourite writer currently, as you might have guessed), where the sections of a Japanese character are written with a kind of Japanese accent.
Of course, there are fine points, but they are usually relevant for traditional omniscient narration, where the writer is constantly present. In your story, the writer comes up awkwardly in the first paragraph, so I assume that it's actually not intended to be omniscient. Yeah, I understand why the beginning is there, but it could have been done without breaking the tense and the viewpoint.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 14, 2011, 07:51:05 pm
Sorry for necroing this thread I guess, but I'm really quite for of it (that is, the thread) and I think it'll be useful for other people too.
This stands well on its own, I think, but I originally imagined this as the last scene in a much longer story. I think I'll have to chop it up some for it to work that way, but right now I'll keep it as a standalone thing.
Spoiler: Better Days - Ending Scene (click to show/hide)
Post by: fqllve on April 14, 2011, 10:22:15 pm
The only thing I can really say, and it's just some insubstantial mechanical thing, is that I'm not sure the semicolon in
Quote
It was also a matter of principle; living with somebody signalled dependence, and as much as he knew then that he was far from independent, he still wanted something – some place – that he could call his own.belongs where it is. "living with. . ." and "and as much. . ." seem like interjections between the clauses so I would probably place it after at the border of the second independent clause. I'm not sure what the style guides would call for there, though. But that's pretty much pedantic bs which should tell you how well done the work was.
e: Alright. I've reread that sentence a couple of times...and damn if you haven't stumped me. Excuse me while I go diagram this.
e:e: Colon. I suggest a colon since the following is really a commentary on the first clause. Also, I think it was the "living with" that threw me off, as that's not the verb but the subject.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 09:14:32 am
Like I said, I don't like it because I don't think that starting a story with what everybody already knows is a good idea. At about the middle I started skimming desperately, for something engaging. Not to mention that I never got complete satisfaction. Also for chrissakes, stop your abstract "he" (here addressing everyone whom it may concern). There's quite enough abstraction even without it. Does the namelessness of the protagonist tie up somehow essentially into the plot? It's not hard to come up with a name. Here (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/), here (http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_most_common_surnames), and look in the links on the last page.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 15, 2011, 09:48:12 am
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/names_files.html
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 10:12:45 am
Post by: Fishbreath on April 15, 2011, 12:11:35 pm
That's still on the back burner, though. My updates have been irregular (owing to limited time) and science-fictiony (because I was in that kind of mood) of late.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 01:07:46 pm
Post by: Urist is dead tome on April 15, 2011, 03:17:15 pm
Post by: fqllve on April 15, 2011, 03:25:35 pm
Like I said, I don't like it because I don't think that starting a story with what everybody already knows is a good idea. At about the middle I started skimming desperately, for something engaging. Not to mention that I never got complete satisfaction. Also for chrissakes, stop your abstract "he" (here addressing everyone whom it may concern). There's quite enough abstraction even without it. Does the namelessness of the protagonist tie up somehow essentially into the plot? It's not hard to come up with a name. Here (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/), here (http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_most_common_surnames), and look in the links on the last page.I gotta say that I think you're wrong. I like the fact that it's a quiet reflection, it makes it feel like an anecdote, like I could go meet this guy. As for his namelessness, I felt like it added to the character, gave him a feel of ubiquity. And honestly, I didn't even notice that he didn't have a name until well into the story. I was too busy enjoying the prose.
I will agree that the middle was a bit expository, but I definitely got hooked in the beginning.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 15, 2011, 04:01:46 pm
It was good. You definitely know what you're doing and I don't really think there's anything I could tell you to improve. It was well-written, the character came across as real, and it had a fair amount of conflict. It was a little bit heavy on the summarization rather than dramatization, which I think hurts it as a standalone piece, but it makes sense considering your intentions when writing it.
Dramatization?
The only thing I can really say, and it's just some insubstantial mechanical thing, is that I'm not sure the semicolon inQuoteIt was also a matter of principle; living with somebody signalled dependence, and as much as he knew then that he was far from independent, he still wanted something – some place – that he could call his own.belongs where it is. "living with. . ." and "and as much. . ." seem like interjections between the clauses so I would probably place it after at the border of the second independent clause. I'm not sure what the style guides would call for there, though. But that's pretty much pedantic bs which should tell you how well done the work was.
e: Alright. I've reread that sentence a couple of times...and damn if you haven't stumped me. Excuse me while I go diagram this.
e:e: Colon. I suggest a colon since the following is really a commentary on the first clause. Also, I think it was the "living with" that threw me off, as that's not the verb but the subject.
It's now a colon.
You don't mind if I don't like it?
If you mean my prose then yeah, perfectly fine.
Like I said, I don't like it because I don't think that starting a story with what everybody already knows is a good idea.
This is true. As mentioned earlier, if I want this to end the storyline properly I'll have to heavily revise it.
At about the middle I started skimming desperately, for something engaging.
I will agree that the middle was a bit expository, but I definitely got hooked in the beginning.
I didn't really know what to do with the story at around that point, and it seems it shows. Noted, however. I'll see what I can do.
Not to mention that I never got complete satisfaction.
Mind elaborating?
Also for chrissakes, stop your abstract "he" (here addressing everyone whom it may concern). There's quite enough abstraction even without it. Does the namelessness of the protagonist tie up somehow essentially into the plot? It's not hard to come up with a name. Here (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/), here (http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_most_common_surnames), and look in the links on the last page.
Thanks, that'll be very useful. The namelessness of the lead was rather intentional, and though if I do get around to writing the whole thing he'l def. have a name, he doesn't right here. I didn't think that the name was necessary, to be honest.
Post by: fqllve on April 15, 2011, 04:09:59 pm
Dramatization?Just the same thing that Mikhail said, really. It was a lot of reflection in the middle without much going on in the present. Honestly, I think a couple more paragraphs describing the park/trail he's at or something to break it up would fix it completely.
It felt good to me as an end scene though. Like after a timeskip. Kinda reminded me of Part V in On the Road in that sense.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 04:52:54 pm
Quote
Thanks, that'll be very useful. The namelessness of the lead was rather intentional, and though if I do get around to writing the whole thing he'l def. have a name, he doesn't right here. I didn't think that the name was necessary, to be honest.Are you a fan of abstract art? How much time can you spend appreciating a couple of circles in a triangle? Personally, I never found anything in them. There's kind of nothing to attract your eye, catch your attention. My mind works with shapes, deconstructs them into primitives, and if there's nothing but primitives, then there's nothing for my mind to do.
Quote
Mind elaborating?I meant you didn't even explain what the guy got out of his pocket. No resolution to the mystery.
Quote
It felt good to me as an end scene though. Like after a timeskip. Kinda reminded me of Part V in On the Road in that sense.Yeah, it might work as an end scene. Not as a stand-alone story.
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 15, 2011, 05:07:25 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 06:42:58 pm
Post by: Urist is dead tome on April 15, 2011, 08:15:10 pm
I've got no idea these days about where a creative topic would get more attention - here or in its own thread. Whichever way, I suggest you brainstorm your idea carefully first. I recall that you don't exactly have a reputation about finishing these things. Although I might be wrong. Also, what's Mitril Hall? I mean I suppose it's Mithril Hall, but that still doesn't ring any bells. That should refer to something well-known, right?
Moria? Khazad-Dum?
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 15, 2011, 08:56:13 pm
And yeah I have problems finishing series. I've tried brainstorming and it didn't really help much. It's less of not having an idea than just not enough motivation.
Post by: Urist is dead tome on April 15, 2011, 10:49:13 pm
How about Drizzt Do'Urden? Bruenor Battlehammer? The Forgotten Realms?
And yeah I have problems finishing series. I've tried brainstorming and it didn't really help much. It's less of not having an idea than just not enough motivation.
I have the same problem. Also I have a poor imagination, also I am a plagiarist. With the exception of my posted story, that is.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 16, 2011, 12:42:08 am
"But my story is set in the real world!" I hear you say. It isn't, actually, unless you're writing non-fiction, but that's kind of a needless quibble. You'll see why later.
"But I want a story, not a world!" I hear you say. Part of the secret is that your world is your story. This is a strong statement, but as far as I can tell it's the truth. Your world determines what kinds of stories you can tell and what the details are. The shape of your stories follow the shape of your world, and by telling stories you wreak change upon your world which in turn begets new stories.
So here we are: the method itself. First, pick an event in your world. It's probably best if it either follows from your story, precedes it, or doesn't affect it too much. Ask yourself questions about that event: what happened? Who did it happen to? Why were they involved? Why did the whole thing happen to begin with? What are the consequences? What were the circumstances leading up to it?
I'll give an example. The whole of the setting of Many Words' currently running story was derived from the words, "The Threshold Rebellion". Obviously, it involves Threshold and some other party. I decided to call the other party the Confederacy. "So why were they at odds?" I asked myself. It developed that the Confederacy was a government of a handful of star systems, and Threshold was unhappy with increasing centralization. So why did it only happen now, when we have eleven star systems with colonies of approximately equal development a good long way into their lifetimes? Obviously the systems would have had to be colonized at around the same time, a long time ago, and none of them can be Earth. Why didn't the centralization bit happen earlier? Because they didn't have an FTL drive until recently.
And so on. I could repeat the process for pretty much any of the other worlds I've come up with, but it boils down to this: come up with one idea, and figure out why that idea makes sense. It does (as I said) even work for stories in just-like-today worlds. Stories shape your world after the world ends, so ask yourself what the world would look like once your story has run its course. If that doesn't make sense (murder mysteries seem like they fit here), ask yourself what happens if your protagonists fail. Pick some event from the post-story world, and the very process of making that make sense is basically the same thing as outlining your story. The only difference is you have a point of reference to work against.
There is one final point: it's difficult to do this alone. Find a friend and have them play devil's advocate. It works out a lot better in the end.
Hopefully I've been helpful here as opposed to unintelligible.
Post by: Acanthus117 on April 16, 2011, 12:44:51 am
I can't seem to become dedicated to projects I do on my own time (it's not for school or w/e) for more than a few weeks.
Does anyone have any tips? I really, really want to finish something. :/
Post by: fqllve on April 16, 2011, 12:53:24 am
Post by: Acanthus117 on April 16, 2011, 12:55:23 am
Thanks, fqllve!
Post by: fqllve on April 16, 2011, 01:04:22 am
Post by: Supermikhail on April 16, 2011, 07:56:16 am
The fact that you can't keep your attention on your writing project probably stems from the fact that they are based around fleeting interests. You lose interest because the stuff is no longer important to you. That's quite natural. I suspect that your main interest is writing itself (maybe you think it's cool, or something). Well, I don't know, I guess you should write about writing. Otherwise you might consider looking into yourself and finding what topic is really important to you and write about it. That is, not around it - "I like fantasy so I'm going to write fantasy." That's a genre. Think what you want to write about. Getting to the favorite topic of Tolkien - yes, his writing was the background for his linguistics. But actually, the Lord Of the Rings carries a topic very important to Tolkien - contrast of mechanization/modernization and tradition/union with nature.
There's a ton of shitty writers who write because they think it's cool and a nice way to make money. We don't need more of them.
Post by: Willfor on April 16, 2011, 09:20:22 am
There's a ton of shitty writers who write because they think it's cool and a nice way to make money. We don't need more of them.
Mikhail, at this point you're being actively harmful to beginning writers. Every writer I know has had to start out small, and work their way to bigger things. I started out small, and slowly as I continued practicing I am finally to the point where a first chapter from me can be 10,000 words longs. I used to consider 200 words big! Most people here aren't experienced writers, but this thread is called "Writer's Guild." A guild is for the protection of people in a profession. I don't know how you think this is going to be helpful for the creative portion of the forums, besides turning them off from writing, or making them actively angry enough at you to try to prove you wrong.
I sincerely hope it's more the latter because honestly, "write what you think is cool" is my creed, and hasn't failed me yet.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 16, 2011, 09:40:15 am
[...] "write what you think is cool" [...]
For quite a while now I've been telling people that "write what you know" is a bad way to go about it. I think I'll use your creed as a replacement.
Post by: fqllve on April 16, 2011, 10:41:47 am
There's a ton of shitty writers who write because they think it's cool and a nice way to make money. We don't need more of them.Nope. First, writing is a terrible way to make money. Anyone who thinks they're going to make money writing is gonna have that idea dispelled quickly when the first stories they "sell" net them only a few copies of the magazine they're in. And that's only if they're lucky enough to get accepted into a print journal and not an online one. Second, humans are natural storytellers. We enjoy stories and naturally we want to participate in the other end of the activity that we enjoy. Frankly, I don't care if I like what they produce as long as they like what they produce. If they like it someone else might, if it's something I wouldn't like then it's something I wouldn't write and there's no competition between us. Honestly, I have to wonder if you even enjoy writing. For me, it's an obvious thing to encourage others to do something that I love so much, especially when they have the desire to.
Basically, we need more shitty writers. Lot's more. I love them and want to give them all hugs.
honestly, "write what you think is cool" is my creed, and hasn't failed me yet.This. Seriously it cannot be said enough. If you write what you like then you cannot fail.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 16, 2011, 10:57:34 am
By the way (about other sad things), it turns out ScriptFrenzy is half through. If anybody here participated I guess you would have said so already.
Post by: fqllve on April 16, 2011, 11:06:18 am
Post by: Supermikhail on April 16, 2011, 03:07:14 pm
On a different note, as we are such selfless and creative individuals, what do you think about this site and its cause (http://equalmoney.org/)?
Edit: suddenly stumbled on a thing that should have appeared in this thread a long time ago. Applies to aspiring writers, blocked writers, and people in general. (http://www.jpb.com/creative/creative.php)
Post by: fqllve on April 16, 2011, 03:25:01 pm
And going back further...
I just feel insulted.
Quote
If your motivation, currently money, for having to exist, live and survive in this world were to be removed from this world completely (taken out of the equation of having to be necessary) – would you be self motivated?
Quote
It is because of money that all human beings in this reality are ‘why they are,’ ‘who they are,’ ‘how they are,’ ‘what they are,’ ‘where they are’ and ‘when they are.’
Quote
From where I’m looking, every person on Earth is a murderer just because they’re participating in the Money System.I want to agree with this guy, but he's just so damn condescending.
e: Okay wow. This guy is a huge jackass and I think this deserves its own thread.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 16, 2011, 04:01:20 pm
insult -> anger -> adrenalin -> ability to act
Although, quite unfortunately, last time (before that site) I came in contact with a practitioner of this approach (clear and outspoken), he turned out to be a scammer, apparently.
On yet another note. Recently in pursuit of the idea that entertainment should be collaborative, I came upon one million monkeys (http://www.1000000monkeys.com/). So far this encounter hasn't born any fruits. Partially because they didn't offer what I was really looking for. And that was not mindless typing, but quite intelligent collaboration in all stages of a project. From inception to typing.
The idea was that people would collectively decide which and whose story they would write, they would brainstorm finer plot points and world details, and finally they would approach it just like one million monkeys proposed - by each typing small bits - competitively - and presenting them to fellow collaborators for evaluation. I think it would be cool.
Yeah, and they would claim no recognition for the final product. But I guess, "it is not this day. An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight!"
Post by: Urist is dead tome on April 16, 2011, 04:16:58 pm
On a different note, as we are such selfless and creative individuals, what do you think about this site and its cause (http://equalmoney.org/)?
I'm writing a review of Avatar. Its late but I just really have to write down this stuff.
If this site is a scam, the creators are scum, if it is an actual cause then they are the most Yellow bellied people I have ever seen. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)
Post by: Supermikhail on April 23, 2011, 06:30:52 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 09, 2011, 09:36:23 pm
While I don't have time to write anything right now, I was thinking of doing something along the lines of writing some of the shorter, more significant scenes from my larger fantasies sans context.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 10, 2011, 03:23:57 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 10, 2011, 08:33:32 am
Post by: Supermikhail on May 10, 2011, 09:03:53 am
Oh, there was a joke somewhere. Ah - if you're going to write significant scenes, you're going to need someone to write the insignificant ones. Da-boom.
In any case, it'd be interesting to hear what idea you intend to work on. Around the time I signed up for this forum, Creative Projects could boast a series of vivid images in your threads. If I remember correctly.
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 12, 2011, 06:52:51 pm
I do have an idea, that I've expanded on quite a bit the last few months.
Something I'd like to mention though is that I'm not sure I'm cut out to be an author. I think that to be a satisfactory quality author, one needs quite a bit experience in reading. I simply do not have a great roster of books that I've actually read, and I have no desire to read a lot of books, nor any desire to force myself.
What I've been thinking is that I wanted to learn how to draw, because I'm actually much closer in mind and heart to the visual aspect of storytelling. If I learned how to draw, then I could create something comic or manga style, and I think I'd enjoy that much more. First though, I need to acquire a drawing tablet, since I think the digital medium would be much more cost efficient and allow me more freedom. It'd be pretty cool to be the next Fault around here, I think.
Anyway, my next idea goes as thus:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I hope that was a fairly good summation. I also want to get back to the one story I told everyone about in the past, with the giant Tower and the magic people that scale it and kill eachother in the process.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 13, 2011, 05:18:06 am
Anyway, if art, I recommend to start with a physical drawing notebook (hardcover) and a pencil. It's actually quite fun to have with you on a walk. But, if it doesn't appeal to you, there are other venues. Maybe you could go for directing short movies if you've got a video-camera, or machinima.
I've got some thoughts on the plot. Well, it's... the ending should be considered cliché these days. I mean the protagonist turning out to be a robot.
What happens to the organization after Franco finds his "brother"? Does Franco just leave?
About after-the-spoiler. One of the more important things in creative projects is dedication. Writing a novel could easily take a year, and a comic could go a lot longer. It might be a good idea to look at all your ideas and choose the strongest one you think you can dedicate a good amount of time to, regardless of the tools. At least that's my philosophy. Although, from a single sentence, the giant tower idea seems to be more suited for a video game. Or maybe not.
I had a similar idea, only there the tower was assaulted by a single daring youth. On a wing-glider or something.
From another angle, if the length is not important to you, the robot idea could be arranged into a novelette or a short story of about 15-20,000 words very well, I think. Frankly, it doesn't seem to hold much promise for a novel, unless there is an excessive amount of chases and fights. What do you think?
Post by: Acanthus117 on May 13, 2011, 05:21:38 am
The thing is, it's fanfiction :X
Post by: Supermikhail on May 13, 2011, 05:32:09 am
Post by: Acanthus117 on May 13, 2011, 05:50:31 am
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 14, 2011, 04:43:39 pm
These are just ideas that I'm tossing in my head, writing fiction is probably something I'm perfectly capable of doing, I just need practice.
And I am being quite stingy with my summation, but it does require a bit of work, I agree.
I had another idea just the other night. I might make a short story just to test my own personal waters pretty soon.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 15, 2011, 04:36:11 am
If the test turns out alright, maybe you'd be interested in a couple of writing prompt challenges to keep creative juices flowing? I've been meaning to do it myself, but it's hard to do on your own.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 15, 2011, 05:18:41 am
First though, I need to acquire a drawing tablet, since I think the digital medium would be much more cost efficient and allow me more freedom. It'd be pretty cool to be the next Fault around here, I think.
So wrong. So very, very wrong.
If you want to improve your artsing skills, there is no reason or excuse in the world for you not to be artsing right now. Drawing tablets are expensive toys and tools, nothing more; they will not by any stretch of the word make you more skillful. It's like waiting to learn how to read until you get a computer, or something.
Good tablets go for hundreds of dollars. A pencil and some paper? Only a few. And I bet you'll just scrap the tablet after the third day too, frustrated at your lack of awesomeness.
This applies to your "manga style" especially, because despite that a lot of people think there are only three things involved in the process: Paper, a pencil, and ink. The tools themselves will never make you better or let you be better; you have to do both.
Because what you really need is time, patience and the balls to do it - expensive toys, no matter how much they want you to buy them, are completely unnecessary.
As an aside, I've found digital art to be much harder and restrictive compared to my set of pencils and paper. It's still doable, but it's time-consuming, and the payoff is never quite as much as I'd like.
It'd be pretty cool to be the next Fault around here, I think.
I realise xkcd isn't highly thought of, but this is very relevant anyways. (http://xkcd.com/896/)
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 15, 2011, 10:08:44 pm
Looking forward to reading it.
If the test turns out alright, maybe you'd be interested in a couple of writing prompt challenges to keep creative juices flowing? I've been meaning to do it myself, but it's hard to do on your own.
Thank you very much, I'll be working on it in chunks and pieces during my 20 minutes or so breaks everyday. I find that I can accomplish quite a lot if I break it into very small chunks.
First though, I need to acquire a drawing tablet, since I think the digital medium would be much more cost efficient and allow me more freedom. It'd be pretty cool to be the next Fault around here, I think.
So wrong. So very, very wrong.
If you want to improve your artsing skills, there is no reason or excuse in the world for you not to be artsing right now. Drawing tablets are expensive toys and tools, nothing more; they will not by any stretch of the word make you more skillful. It's like waiting to learn how to read until you get a computer, or something.
Good tablets go for hundreds of dollars. A pencil and some paper? Only a few. And I bet you'll just scrap the tablet after the third day too, frustrated at your lack of awesomeness.
This applies to your "manga style" especially, because despite that a lot of people think there are only three things involved in the process: Paper, a pencil, and ink. The tools themselves will never make you better or let you be better; you have to do both.
Because what you really need is time, patience and the balls to do it - expensive toys, no matter how much they want you to buy them, are completely unnecessary.
As an aside, I've found digital art to be much harder and restrictive compared to my set of pencils and paper. It's still doable, but it's time-consuming, and the payoff is never quite as much as I'd like.It'd be pretty cool to be the next Fault around here, I think.
I realise xkcd isn't highly thought of, but this is very relevant anyways. (http://xkcd.com/896/)
I suppose I have an ulterior motive for wanting a tablet over pen and paper, that being that it's far easier to hide my digital works. I'm not very skilled, and so I'm really embarrassed to let my RL friends in on my hobbies or dreams, so I'd prefer to keep the whole affair out-of-sight-out-of-mind on my flashdrive or something.
Thank you very much for your insight.
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 01:33:11 am
It works the other direction, too--I hold a fairly low opinion of my capability as a writer, and sometimes it takes a friend telling me, "No, that was actually great," to make me realize that sometimes I'm not as bad as I think.
In that vein, an exercise in description, something I'm really bad at:
Spoiler: The Girl with the White Lily (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on May 16, 2011, 02:26:41 am
Quote
She must have heard his approachIs that correct? I think it should actually be "him approach", because "approach" has different meanings in its noun and verb forms.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 16, 2011, 09:30:57 am
My, you're good.
So I disagree with this.
I never really could imagine what you were talking about, to be honest. I got all these little snippets, but not her. I found most of your similes (is that what it is?) in trying to describe her to be rather ineffectual; they were there, but they gave little substance and were simply obtuse instead of poetic.
Your short sentences aren't helping matters much. They can work as a style, but there's a distinct lack of both flow and eloquence in this example. So start looking at that flow.
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 11:11:22 am
Post by: Supermikhail on May 16, 2011, 01:22:03 pm
Yeah, I guess I've got the blues today. Plus I'm somewhere near the bottom of the curve of my opinion about my own writing. Possibly not undeservedly.
Still, regardless of my low self-esteem, I think the flow is good. The way sentences are arranged, very natural and tastefully worded.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 16, 2011, 01:28:54 pm
That's what I always think when I read my own work, but I really don't see what sorts of things precisely I can do to fix it; when it comes to writing description I'm the equivalent of tone-deaf. I can't tell what's going to work and what won't until I get to the end, and sometimes it feels like I'm shotgunning solutions out there until I find one that works.
From what I can tell, prose should flow somewhat like natural speech, in most cases. Read what you wrote out to yourself, and if you spot any hitches change them.
I really do think you can afford to merge some sentences; this may sound like grade-school bullshit, but the rule of thumb of using fewer but longer sentences may actually apply here. I think the periods in frankly unnecessary places is what's causing this disjointed effect, so try that.
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2011, 01:37:29 pm
Maybe it's just my aversion for descriptions, but I had difficulty getting past around the third line.My, you're good.
So I disagree with this.
I'm with you, but it was first sentence.
Too damn many traditional images, all of which give the image of a particular woman without ever touching the core of her. Less is more is very, very applicable in this instance.
Also?
I am really tired of reading about women with perfect faces and perfect bodies and beautiful gazing into the soul, yadda yadda. Musical voice! Shy! Lips slightly parted! Diaphanous dresses! Heart-shaped faces!
Jegus. It isn't original anymore. With the high number of narratives in which women-aren't-people, we really don't need any more. I'm not accusing you of misogyny in general, just saying that this woman is written like any number of others, which end up being more set piece than real human being.
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 01:57:59 pm
Speaking of which, we haven't done an exercise/prompt in so very long. Let's do one on description: fix an image of a person, place, or thing in your mind, then make us see the same one.
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2011, 02:01:49 pm
The traditional image thing was kind of the point, as was 'image without the core'--the goal wasn't to tell you who she was, just what the dream looked like, and given your response, I'd say I managed to convey that pretty well. :P
Well, let me put it this way: if I were reading that book, I'd close it right there and throw the sucker out the window.
I'm sorry for being so overwrought about this. But seriously, too many terrible stories have opened in precisely that manner.
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 02:06:11 pm
Well, let me put it this way: if I were reading that book, I'd close it right there and throw the sucker out the window.
I suppose we're just willing to tolerate different levels of crap before giving up on a book. I've got a friend who'll skip it if she doesn't like the back cover blurb, while I'll give most things twenty pages or so.
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2011, 02:09:42 pm
I suppose we're just willing to tolerate different levels of crap before giving up on a book. I've got a friend who'll skip it if she doesn't like the back cover blurb, while I'll give most things twenty pages or so.
Ah, well, I spent my childhood reading 12-14 hours a day, so my tolerance for the most common tropes is basically zero--and yeah, I do skip books based on the back cover being too manipulative sometimes. Doesn't help that I have a terrible temper, either =/
But, I really do wish you the best of luck with this, whether you keep the passage or not. Don't give up :I
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 02:13:41 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on May 16, 2011, 02:38:24 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 02:40:56 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on May 16, 2011, 02:47:31 pm
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 03:00:22 pm
The second part my presumption, anyway; one of the most important qualities of an artist of any sort is the ability to tease useful criticism out of the seething morass of everyone who doesn't like your work. :P
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 16, 2011, 04:00:35 pm
Just write, for Christ's sake.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 16, 2011, 05:12:21 pm
From the escheresque depths of intertwined wiry squares, golden circles, sharp angles, clockworks and spires, an echelon of shining eyes rushed at him. The tap-tapping of their feet sent him into tired trance, as their sharp tongues pinned him to the metal frame of his bed.
He was in Mandelbox. He was Mandelbox. His arms circled around him in an endless clockwork spiral, intersected by his square-cross-section-prism legs. His bronze ribs sprayed out into the void away from his barbwire spine twisted into triangular fly-trap knots. His twin-black-hole eyes lusted for the rich womb of the black cosmos around him, but his reinforced steel heart oscillated in a screeching cacophony of dying metal.
He sloped his concrete guts into the road for an army of robot drummers marching to the walls of elder gods and dilapidated pyramids. But as the trenches submerged into infrasound, he put a drill to his temple and took over the altar of his mind in a single calculated strike.
Even though on some level I like it. :-[
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 16, 2011, 10:52:16 pm
Good job.
Post by: Fishbreath on May 16, 2011, 11:29:50 pm
Quote
escheresque
Very. Nor am I convinced this is necessarily a good thing. It's mostly confusing.
Quote
square-cross-section-prism legs
This detail struck me as very oddly stated. I don't really have any ideas for a way to change it, beyond just leaving it out.
I'm not sure how to express my overall impression, beyond maybe to say that it seems as if you're trying too hard to work in the ten-dollar words. There's a time and place for that, but I'm not sure that description all by itself is it.
In favor of this snippet, though, it does have a soul to it that the last thing you linked (with the guy and the government agents and such) did not. Even if I can't really puzzle out exactly what's going on, I can get a sense for the world.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 17, 2011, 03:59:07 am
In favor of this snippet, though, it does have a soul to it that the last thing you linked (with the guy and the government agents and such) did not. Even if I can't really puzzle out exactly what's going on, I can get a sense for the world.
Oh. You *. Why couldn't you just say so while I was writing it? I'm majorly cross with you, mister. I'm going to blame my lack of confidence on you, alright? I'm here, all sweating over my English non-nativeness, while the problem is with the lack of emotionally tinted and sexually themed descriptions.
Although, on the other hand I do seem to have a problem with descriptions. Usually, there's either too much of them, or hardly any. I'm not so sure that writing descriptions only is a good solution.
I cannot tell what is going on there, but it sounds significant and cool.Feel free to join in! While the sounds might be significant, people here are quite casual. How's your 20 minutes doing today? ;)
Good job.
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 17, 2011, 01:36:47 pm
I cannot tell what is going on there, but it sounds significant and cool.Feel free to join in! While the sounds might be significant, people here are quite casual. How's your 20 minutes doing today? ;)
Good job.
I think I'm doing fairly well. I have a little over 2 pages already, and there's still a bit left to go for my short story. It might round out at maybe 4 - 4 1/2 pages when it's done. I might post what I have so far, but I don't want to jump the gun.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 18, 2011, 06:22:48 am
Post by: Supermikhail on May 23, 2011, 06:35:15 am
I recently signed up for NaNoWriMo, and the experience has been pretty great. I've learned about writing blindfolded. I've written a passage this way, and then got stuck.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also I'm not sure it's a good writing style in general. Anybody up for a little feedback? I promise to respond constructively. :-\
Post by: Fishbreath on May 23, 2011, 09:10:36 am
First, usage.
1. The word you're looking for is 'fazed'.
2. Some stairs vs. a stairway/staircase.
3. The stooped posture of a fugutive.
4. Having avoided his eyes until now (or perhaps having escaped his notice until now).
Some others, probably, but I'm low on time this morning.
Second, generally:
Your description occasionally is a bit clumsy: around "the rectangular corner of the entrance" jumped out at me as a little bit strange.
Post by: Supermikhail on May 23, 2011, 10:44:34 am
1. The word you're looking for is 'fazed'.Is it... Eh, I don't know... Maybe it would have been better with just "blinded".
Clumsiness goes out in editing. I wish only to push over the visual limits right now. You might have noticed the excessive use of "man". That's what visuals do. Doesn't help that the character's name has no significance for the story. I wonder if I should try graphic novel finally.
Did you really like it a lot? :-\
Post by: JoshuaFH on May 23, 2011, 02:52:34 pm
Post by: Supermikhail on May 24, 2011, 07:37:59 am
Edit: Vague is my second name. No, it's not, but pretty close. The segment is set in some kind of a roguelike dungeon crawler. But not Nethack specifically. So if you haven't seen pig-heads in Nethack, don't be cross.
Post by: JoshuaFH on June 07, 2011, 02:36:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I humbly await your scathing ostracism.
Post by: Supermikhail on June 08, 2011, 01:44:03 pm
(Oh boy, I love me some fancy English words, I sure do! ;D)
Your story starts with a lot of weak words, and very long sentences (by the way, this link (http://editminion.com/)). "Fine day", "rather quietly", blah-blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah. The introduction ends with "This is an account of one of his fine days." Which calls for a question why we should care for one of his fine days. You've got to make us care about your story, and this is not the way to do it. Usually you would replace this sentence with a sneak peak to the resolution of the conflict of the story, like "And on this fine day, Mr. Stafford was destined to find out that his father was Indiana Jones."
To add up to this, the third paragraph ("You see, if there's one thing...") seems to go on and on about some self-important matters (if I may), apparently trying to assure us that this is exactly what the story is going to be like - a narrative of everyday matters of Mr. Stafford who has lived a boring life and nothing is going to change it. I think the third paragraph is the place where you'd do better if you showed not told, as in, by showing us a dialog-driven scene of Mr. Stafford's conversation with one of the waiters, instead of telling us of how polite the waiters are.
I was just going to congratulate you on a consistent present tense, but you had to do it:
Quote from: Mr. JoshuaFH
However, perhaps there was a queer wind blowing that day, or the sun shone a little too finely, or some other contrivance to make the day unordinary, but it would seem that this assumption is about to be proven entirely false.So is it happening now, or did it happen in the past?
Quote from: Mr. JoshuaFH
The gentleman, however, ignores him, and makes idle chitchat with the waiter."Show don't tell" would do finely here, to give more character to the stranger, although if the dialog is too idle it might do more harm than good.
Quote
He sets his coffee downThis is confusing, because it is uncertain at this point, who "he" denotes.
Quote
and it sure did.Tense.
Quote
“I apologize sir, but I usually sit by myself.
Quote
You are busying my idle timeMaybe "wasting"? Also
Quote
overlooking the unbusied road"Quiet road"?
Quote
unfazed at his frustrations.This seems to be stylistically inappropriate (hopefully someone will give another opinion). You'd have a dialog-tag like this in a casual conversation... or actually, it looks more like a screenplay parenthetical denoting a character's emotion than a story dialog-tag. Adding "the stranger is" in the front would seem reasonable to me.
Okay, the rest was kind of cool. Although I wouldn't know what the story could end with. I myself always think about it before beginning the writing. I've got the sentiment though that I'd hate it if anything happened to Mr. Stafford. He's such an amicable fellow. Have Mr. Mister save him.
Alternatively, have the story slide into violence and realism, with Mr. Stafford realizing in his last moments that the empty box meant emptiness of his own life.
---
So I thought, maybe my writing misfortunes are to blame on my psychological peculiarities? I wonder what I should do about it. It is now even more apparent that I'm unable to muster enough strength to grind-write my way through the day. I just can't. On the other hand, I feel like sometimes it's lack of confidence about my writing skills. I thought about having a writing-prompt-flash-fiction marathon with myself. The problem with this is that quite strangely, I haven't been able to find a prompt generator that I liked on the Internet. If anybody reads this, tell my family that I love them... Er, I mean, if you know of a nice prompt generator, I'd be much obliged for the link. Or maybe it's a better idea to ask on the NaNoWriMo forums.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on June 08, 2011, 02:19:16 pm
Quote
This seems to be stylistically inappropriate (hopefully someone will give another opinion). You'd have a dialog-tag like this in a casual conversation... or actually, it looks more like a screenplay parenthetical denoting a character's emotion than a story dialog-tag. Adding "the stranger is" in the front would seem reasonable to me.
For once, I actually agree with you on a question of usage. :P
Post by: Supermikhail on June 08, 2011, 02:48:27 pm
Yay! :DQuoteThis seems to be stylistically inappropriate (hopefully someone will give another opinion). You'd have a dialog-tag like this in a casual conversation... or actually, it looks more like a screenplay parenthetical denoting a character's emotion than a story dialog-tag. Adding "the stranger is" in the front would seem reasonable to me.
For once, I actually agree with you on a question of usage. :P
You don't know how much it means for my self-esteem!
Post by: JoshuaFH on June 08, 2011, 02:54:36 pm
Trivia: the name Mr. Stafford was taken from a story question on one of my class tests. Except it was originally Ms. Stafford, I just changed the gender.
Post by: Supermikhail on June 08, 2011, 03:07:38 pm
You're welcome. I'm stoked for an action-packed finale!
Post by: Fishbreath on July 29, 2011, 09:55:02 am
Er, would there be sufficient interest in, say, a bi-weekly writing prompt for me to commit to providing said prompt?
Post by: Willfor on July 29, 2011, 02:23:00 pm
Rise, thread! Rise from the dead! Serve me in death as you once did in live! MWA-HAHAHAHAHAhahahahaaaa...Have a weekly one. (http://www.writingexcuses.com/)
Er, would there be sufficient interest in, say, a bi-weekly writing prompt for me to commit to providing said prompt?
Or do one every two weeks if you are committed to the bi-weekly thing.
Post by: Supermikhail on July 30, 2011, 12:01:14 am
I find that I don't have a problem with writing prompts in the sense that I have other more pressing writing problems. For example, having not written a word for maybe a week because of a silly thing. Or not being able to break through the 500 words/day barrier for a month. Or taking approximately 3 hours to scribble the said 500 words/day, which is sort of not reasonable amount of time to spend writing 500 words/day if you have a day job which I only intend to get this year, but nevertheless. I find myself in an impaired position as NaNoWriMo draws closer... So a writing prompt is better than nothing, but you had better make it a good one so that the results could deserve to be posted in a different thread in hopes that someone would read them because in this thread they would very likely go incognito, and it would be a bad thing because writing a writing prompt in a company of two is a rather... lonely business... don't you think?
Post by: Ehndras on March 21, 2012, 04:16:55 pm
I put 2 hours into this, turns out. You probably shouldn't critique this. Why can't I write something reasonable?
From the escheresque depths of intertwined wiry squares, golden circles, sharp angles, clockworks and spires, an echelon of shining eyes rushed at him. The tap-tapping of their feet sent him into tired trance, as their sharp tongues pinned him to the metal frame of his bed.
He was in Mandelbox. He was Mandelbox. His arms circled around him in an endless clockwork spiral, intersected by his square-cross-section-prism legs. His bronze ribs sprayed out into the void away from his barbwire spine twisted into triangular fly-trap knots. His twin-black-hole eyes lusted for the rich womb of the black cosmos around him, but his reinforced steel heart oscillated in a screeching cacophony of dying metal.
He sloped his concrete guts into the road for an army of robot drummers marching to the walls of elder gods and dilapidated pyramids. But as the trenches submerged into infrasound, he put a drill to his temple and took over the altar of his mind in a single calculated strike.
Even though on some level I like it. :-[
I see this thread is dead, but contains a wealth of useful information and links. Would probably be frowned upon to necr-
...Oops.
Post by: fqllve on March 21, 2012, 05:21:26 pm
There's Only One Way to Kill a Dragon
"I wish I had a magical sword," Claude said as he and Elle walked down the road back to Villeton.
"What for?" Elle inquired. She was a girl and she had been taught by her mother to question everything, especially the things Claude, her future husband, said, for that was what was expected of a woman.
"What for?" Claude parroted. "What for??" he stammered again with extra inquisitiveness. "So I could slay a dragon or something. I dunno, I really hadn't put much thought into it."
Elle imagined a dragon and smiled as wide as a cabbage at the thought of Claude murdering it for being different. And how many ways there were for him to kill it! Her very most favorite had to be beheading. The magical sword would easily cut through the dragon's thick spine. "That would be amazing!" she said.
"I know. I wish I had one." Claude folded his arms, matching his posture to his sagely words.
Sadly, magical swords were only for rich little boys.
Post by: Willfor on March 21, 2012, 05:54:43 pm
I'll eventually be able to do Hera justice. Until then I'll just have to settle for not having done her justice.
Post by: Ehndras on March 21, 2012, 06:15:14 pm
I suppose it's for the best that I hate everything I've written that I've posted here now. Well, perhaps not hate, but have drifted far away from at the very least. I see various flaws, and find it hard to even bring myself to reading it.
I'll eventually be able to do Hera justice. Until then I'll just have to settle for not having done her justice.
Good, that means you've progressed as a writer.
I look back at my old short stories and absolutely cringe.
Like this for example.
To Wish Upon a Fallen Star (http://maximilian-aurea.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d324di3)
Post by: Newbieman on March 21, 2012, 06:35:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not sure what to think of it.
Post by: Ehndras on March 21, 2012, 06:49:19 pm
Hmm, let me find the last song I wrote...
Spoiler: Relinquish Me (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on March 21, 2012, 10:41:05 pm
Post by: Ehndras on March 21, 2012, 11:01:13 pm
I think it's sort of a given that few writers are ever entirely satisfied with their past work. The ones that are tend to hang their pens over the fireplace and live out the rest of their days in peace. :P
Its what leads to progress. If we were ever satisfied with our current quality level, we'd learn nothing new. I like looking at old poems, songs and stories in order to see where I've come from. Though at times I cringe in horror, it's definitely a learning experience. =)
The same goes for these types of groups. By networking with other writers, we expose ourselves to different writing styles and a more expansive vocabulary. I think I need to participate in these things more often!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 05, 2012, 12:43:50 am
This time, I plan to have the comic completely outlined before I start scripting. Once that done, I plan to have one Saga completely written out before I go look for an artist again.
It's meant to be a web comic, with an interest in monetizing, but maybe for shits and grins I'll try to shop it around first. You never know.
The three main characters are:
Kyle Morance (Proton Man), Mid 20s and the most experience hero of the group.
Alexander Zakkia Tanner (Zak), Late Teens. Just finishing high school and was on his way to college out of town. Best friends with Rush.
Robert Parker (Rush), Late Teens and just finished high school. He's a hacker by skill but also a proficient street fighter. Best friends with Zak.
The Hero Saga is to introduce the world, the characters, and to show that the world is futurey martial arts focus world. It'll also introduce a variety of other elements about the comic setting, and it'll be introducing the first and reoccurring big bad.
What I have now, is the Overview Outline, which contains the comic story from beginning to end, broken up into Saga's. Starting with their heroship, and covering little bit until Kyle dies.
What I'd like is maybe some feed back on the outline, and general interest in the story. If there a good variety of enemies, and things for the hero to deal with.
I have most of the major fights worked out. I know how my 'Ki' works, and I know how it empowers my characters. I just finished up some research into Mach Cones to help visually display physical power of the characters.
I have my 5 cities worked out, even though you won't be seeing two of them.
It's largely inspired by Dragonball Z, but overall, I just want to tell a cool well executed shonen story.
This is the Overview Outline, coving the entire story of the comic.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1toKe1SaUicSnqhFXInQ0k9hjj0nB1yqNgObx7aFeWEU/edit
This is an extended Outline of the Here Saga. It many grouping of bullet points are serve as page breaks, with each bullet point serving as a panel.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wJDC_Xtn1cZjEtsauha6sGJgDmz7xY1eH7z3V7KVmLU/edit
Post by: Ignus on April 05, 2012, 02:08:40 pm
Here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/88162683/Sons-of-the-Bear-God-Redux) is the first part of an ongoing project I'm working on. Essentially I'm venting my frustration with bad heroic fantasy novels by re-writing them to make them good/less awful. It's been rather enjoyable battling purple prose and terrible characters while still trying to maintain the spirit of the piece.
I uploaded it to Scribd because I find it hard to read anything of any length on this forum. Fonts, colours, broken eyes, who knows?
Post by: klingon13524 on April 05, 2012, 03:25:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Fishbreath on April 05, 2012, 03:32:09 pm
This is the Overview Outline, coving the entire story of the comic.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1toKe1SaUicSnqhFXInQ0k9hjj0nB1yqNgObx7aFeWEU
This is an extended Outline of the Here Saga. It many grouping of bullet points are serve as page breaks, with each bullet point serving as a panel.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wJDC_Xtn1cZjEtsauha6sGJgDmz7xY1eH7z3V7KVmLU
Are these links working for anyone else? They're blank documents for me.
Ignus, I'm at work, so I only read the first paragraph, but I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it. klingon, your pacing is marvelous. :P
Post by: Ignus on April 05, 2012, 04:02:53 pm
Are these links working for anyone else? They're blank documents for me.
Also blank for me. (+thanks for kind words)
Post by: MrWiggles on April 05, 2012, 06:25:46 pm
---
After some fernaggling I got the links to work I think:
This is for the Overview Outline:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1toKe1SaUicSnqhFXInQ0k9hjj0nB1yqNgObx7aFeWEU/edit
This is for the Hero Saga:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wJDC_Xtn1cZjEtsauha6sGJgDmz7xY1eH7z3V7KVmLU/edit
And you should be able to leave comments on the docu itself.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 05, 2012, 07:30:00 pm
Speaking of which, my next project at Many Words is almost certainly going to be a zeppelins-and-skypirates Nazi-punching adventure archaeology romp through alternate history 1929. I can barely wait to get started.
The world's a collaborative project with a friend of mine, and it's probably one of the better-realized worlds I've come up with (the one I'm writing in now wins, since it's been a project about a decade in the making).
Post by: MorleyDev on April 05, 2012, 08:01:06 pm
Also I can't decide how to intro a story I keep trying to write in my spare time. My latest attempt involved the main character narrating from first person (I prefer writing in first person) as they fight a werewolf in an alley. I can't decide if them interrupting this fight mid-narrative to break into a short lecture on how magic works is a good thing or not. It is in keeping with their character, but I can't tell if it flows well, flows poorly or flows poorly but in a well kind of way.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 05, 2012, 08:04:05 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on April 05, 2012, 08:08:10 pm
She likes Twilight doesn't she?
She says she likes it because it's so stupid. Actually watched a bit of it with her and it was just constant snarking from me and her.
That makes me feel better about her generation.
Post by: fqllve on April 05, 2012, 08:55:48 pm
I can't decide if them interrupting this fight mid-narrative to break into a short lecture on how magic works is a good thing or not.It's not. Imagine you're coming to your story as a reader. If you're trying to hook them with action even two or three paragraphs of exposition are enough to completely stall it and kill what you were working toward. If it's so complex that the reader couldn't possibly follow the scene without exposition then perhaps you shouldn't lead the story with it.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 05, 2012, 09:13:50 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can't think of how to get back into the flow from there though. And the first paragraph needs rewriting or scrapping for a better one...also I probably need to go over it and remove a lot of the commas. Using too many of them, and generally writing too long sentences, is a bad habit of mine. I usually have to go through anything I write and split sentences up into smaller ones. Several other paragraphs could probably use touches up. I honestly haven't really written many action scenes.
Also "wizard secret agent super spy" is a pretty good description of my idea for the character, but I need a better and more snarky way to introduce the concept...And would a body where the air around it suddenly became superheated contract it's muscles reflexively?
Post by: Willfor on April 05, 2012, 09:14:29 pm
Today I had to explain to my sister why it is not acceptable for her to describe windows as "mysterious" for no reason other than to add more descriptive words to the short story she was writing for homework. I fear for her generation :(The first person lets you cheat a bit in this area, but I think a handy rule of thumb would be to leave the explanation out of your first draft. If people have a hard time following it without the explanation then you can use their feedback to tell you where your explanation should be. Just remember that you can scatter information about a magic system through a very large area so that you're not dumping it all in one spot.
Also I can't decide how to intro a story I keep trying to write in my spare time. My latest attempt involved the main character narrating from first person (I prefer writing in first person) as they fight a werewolf in an alley. I can't decide if them interrupting this fight mid-narrative to break into a short lecture on how magic works is a good thing or not. It is in keeping with their character, but I can't tell if it flows well, flows poorly or flows poorly but in a well kind of way.
Conveying this sort of information in the proper way is the #1 problem that faces both Fantasy and Sci Fi writers, and if you make yourself skilled in doing it in a way that draws the majority of readers in without boring them -- well, that's something professional writers have a hard time with. Consider it a resume skill that will mark you as an excellent writer if you can master it. Bearing in mind that it tends to take years for people to learn to do it consistently.
Post by: Ignus on April 05, 2012, 10:44:04 pm
*snip*Just some things I noticed:
Always, always, always show, don't tell. It's the first and most important rule any writer needs to commit to. Also, adverbs, look at each one very carefully and decide if it is absolutely essential. If not, kill it. At best they are flowery and add little when overused, at worse they reduce reader engagement as they skim over them. Does a castle need to be a foreboding castle? Much better, again, to show rather than tell.
Quote
Magic, for those who don't know, is all about energy...
Quote
Fighting werewolves is not a recommended hobby...Passive language, especially in a scene that is intended to be quite punchy, needs to be fixed. Just by removing "for those who don't know" you would instantly make the sentence far more striking and sound less insecure.
So yea, stuff and things. Stick to it :D
Post by: Fishbreath on April 06, 2012, 09:02:50 am
Post by: MorleyDev on April 06, 2012, 09:51:16 am
Post by: Supermikhail on April 06, 2012, 10:15:11 am
Quote
Where could I learn more about current historic knowledge on the dark-ages village life?Welp, I've come out.
Admittedly, I'm writing a fantasy screenplay, but I've come to the conclusion that my inability to progress is due to not being an expert on the subject - the topics that stumble me the most are the ritual of exorcism, and the architecture and furnishing of the church and the priest's house... Anyway, I'd appreciate any resources that would help me get closer to my ideal.
Also, to be honest, I'm writing a Diablo fanfic. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong epoch?
There's no other reason to asking this question... s here other than statistics. Oh, and also, there used to be some fantasy folks here... Yeah, and Dwarf Fortress is quite dark-agey.
So, there's quite a few reasons.
I guess I could also ask on that forum devoted to the Middle Ages, except I don't like registering on new sites I don't plan to frequent.
Edit: Can't find that forum, although I swear there used to be one, and quite prominent.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 06, 2012, 10:29:20 am
Google Books has a pretty long list of stuff on 'middle ages village life'. You might be able to get what you need out of previews.
Post by: Ignus on April 06, 2012, 10:51:31 am
Where could I learn more about current historic knowledge on the dark-ages village life?
Last year I had to do quite a bit of research on day-to-day medieval life and three books stood out way above the rest for general quality of research and accessibility:
Joseph and Frances Gies' Life in a Medieval City and Life in a Medieval Village give a full feel of medieval life, down to eating habits, clothes, hair, marriage etc.
while Norman F. Cantor's The Civilization of the Middle Ages is the most comprehensive layman's history of the medieval period you'll ever find or need.
Post by: Caz on April 07, 2012, 01:09:26 am
A few days ago I went into a bookstore.
having all those books around.....
the smell of books
of pages
the scent of words
.. so beautiful.
I saw a book at WHSmith called 'Dwarves' or something yesterday. About a dwarf living in human society who has to save his mountainhome. Was so tempted to get it but then I remembered I needed to buy food this week. :(
Post by: Ignus on April 08, 2012, 01:54:05 pm
On a related note, what are people's writing schedules like? Do you do a set amount per day whether you like it or not? Do you measure by the word or by time? How fast do you write?
I for instance write 250 words (that I'm keeping, no "notes" or "planning" excuses) or for 2 hours per day, whichever is longer. In practise this breaks a novel down into a rough 6 month production time for a first draft and keeps the wheels moving no matter how much you're struggling. Interested to know how others do it.
Post by: fqllve on April 08, 2012, 05:08:23 pm
Post by: Ehndras on April 08, 2012, 06:08:35 pm
What sort of writing projects are you folks working on?
Post by: MrWiggles on April 08, 2012, 06:29:28 pm
A Mush inspired from Dresden Files.
An RPG called Irph. Western Sword and sorcery, that avoids being steam punk.
An RPG based on Project Freelancer from Roosterteeth.com. Sorta 3 games in one for that one.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 08, 2012, 06:29:28 pm
Beyond the zeppelins-skypirates-and-Nazis pulp piece I've got planned, I have a novelette near its end (We Sail Off To War, the one I'm running at Many Words right now). I'd like to get that done, so I can go over it again for editing and e-book it up. I admit that self-publishing via e-book is almost more of a cop-out than self-publishing via print-on-demand, but on the other hand, I don't have the discipline to write novel-sized chunks, and I doubt there are many people that would value my writing at more than 99 cents for a chunk of it anyway. :P
Beyond that, it goes from science fiction detective stories to the high-fantasy-with-Viking-names world I've got, to another fantasy world I need to flesh out, to space opera-style sci-fi for the homebrew RPG rule system I wrote a while back. There aren't enough hours in the day.
Post by: Ignus on April 08, 2012, 07:39:39 pm
My current long one is my pulp redux project, supplemented by short stories just to flex my muscles without the stress of having to carry an idea on for a hundred more pages.
Post by: Caz on April 09, 2012, 04:06:36 am
On a related note, what are people's writing schedules like? Do you do a set amount per day whether you like it or not? Do you measure by the word or by time? How fast do you write?
I used to try and shoot for 2k words a day but at that pace I burn out pretty fast. A good thing is to keep a notebook with you wherever you go and just write when things come to mind. I got a lot of writing done sitting outside among the trees or in the pub over a pint (probably the reason there's about 20 scenes I've written that are about characters drinking in bars... oops) I found that once I got into the habit of writing every day it gets easier, until you hit a block where you just can't write at all. Which is awful.
As for writing speed I'd average about 500 in an hour, but it depends. Most I've ever written in a day was 6k I think, during NaNoWriMo.
What sort of writing projects are you folks working on?
Working on a low-fantasy novel, inspirations from both RPGs and DF of course 8)
Post by: Fishbreath on April 09, 2012, 09:23:49 pm
On a related note, what are people's writing schedules like? Do you do a set amount per day whether you like it or not? Do you measure by the word or by time? How fast do you write?
I generally try to fill at least one page of a notebook whenever I sit down, and preferably two (~300-600 words). Sometimes I end up going much further.
I find that handwriting a draft and typing later is the ideal method for me: the distractions are fewer, and when I'm not stuck on phrasing something, I write at about the same pace at which I can think of good prose. For whatever reason, I find that I strike the right balance between revising on the fly and pressing onward when I write by hand, too; things I don't catch on the fly I get a second shot at when I type up. I try not to get more than a few thousand words ahead on paper, though. It's hard to have backups of paper.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 10, 2012, 10:27:59 am
I'm just writing fanfiction for fun, but I'd love some crazy nitpicking to make sure I'm on the right track, and I've annoyed my friends for criticism too much already. Tell me what I'm doing wrong; practice makes perfect of course, but I don't want to find myself becoming really good at writing the wrong way.
This shouldn't require any knowledge of anything, is 890 words, and is just the starting scene. Fire away, if someone would be so kind.
Oh, and beware: ponies.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Willfor on April 10, 2012, 10:42:57 am
There are sentences in there where it fits, but over the whole of the story you're using too many sentences which rely on using them. Or even using them where you don't need them. Commas slow prose down by their very nature, and having too many of them can slow your reader down to the point of frustration. Though I think you're not far from the mark of acceptable comma levels if this is even a problem. Minor critique.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 10, 2012, 10:45:10 am
Unbroken sentences sound stilted to me, most of the time.
Post by: Willfor on April 10, 2012, 10:58:24 am
The other side of the coin is that people will read absolute shit writing if you pull them in with the story, and they will even greatly enjoy it. The problem is that you have to use a particular kind of writing style to write in that way.
EDIT: Also, please realize that the reason I can point this out so easily is because I have the hardest time with commas in my own work. I still deal with my overuse of commas any time I sit down to write. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
Post by: Supermikhail on April 10, 2012, 12:07:12 pm
For my lack of cents - or pennies - I think it's an absolutely bad starting scene. It depends on what kind of starting scene it is, but I'll assume that it's for the whole story. I'm searching for an apt adjective, and not coming up with anything better than "boring". Or, maybe, "expository". My technical advice for a beginning writer is, start with action. It's sure helpful to know that scientific work is boring even if you're a pony, but if you must convey it, do it quickly and entertainingly. Three paragraphs is not the way to go.
in my opinion.
Aaand, also cliché. I mean it seems only lazy filmmakers don't do a scene in a thriller where someone in a tube suddenly/unexpectedly/thrillingly opens his/her eyes. Although the angle on the witness's personality is pleasing. (Or it may contribute to the boring-ness.) It depends on whether the personality plays any role further in the story.
Post by: fqllve on April 10, 2012, 02:06:17 pm
I don't agree that climax was cliched though because I don't feel like it was played in the way it's always played, an easy way to shock the audience. Instead I see it as the logical consequence of the narrative. Rather, the shock is the other consequences of his actions which we're still left anticipating. Besides, I don't see how you could do it any other way.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 10, 2012, 06:00:29 pm
Some of the best feedback since I've started writing. Note to self: write small stuff so they don't get terrified and run away.
@supermikhail
I can see the "too much exposition" thing. Trying to do some foreshadowing for later stuff but hey. I'll see what I can cut out to make it go faster.
Length is something I've struggled with since I started this. I go on too long.
@ fqllve
Golden Tiara was introduced earlier, but since I'm thinking of cutting that earlier part out and making this the "true" beginning, bringing her in might be a good idea.
As for "cliche"... heh yeah I know this sort of thing has been done a million times. Hell, just listen to my inspiration for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pNY2Krf3Rw) I hope to take it a couple places you won't predict, but of course I can't say that until I actually finish writing it. I mean, half my source material is all about cliches done right, so it's not a huge red flag for me.
And as for "where this sits in the narrative", well, Pen Pusher's just a one shot character. His story will be done within the next dozen or so pages. I'm trying for a more episodic style; you shouldn't even have to read chapters in order. As such, I'm really in agreement that I should cut down on exposition; too much time on one dude who'll be gone in a flash. Trying to make the reader be a tad bit creeped out while still slightly sympathetic to him, but I can do that in less words.
Post by: Grakelin on April 10, 2012, 06:04:29 pm
Of marketing materials. :(
Post by: Bilgewater on April 10, 2012, 10:11:37 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on April 11, 2012, 05:17:50 am
There's a particular fight scene I've been having trouble with. Not gonna link it here since it's horrible, but the big problem I've been having with it is one of the major players doesn't have their name revealed until the end of the fight.
How do you effectively refer to a character constantly without giving a name? I've been referring to them by a major trait (in this case, age), but it sounds odd to keep calling someone "the old lady" something like 12 times. I fear I'm going to confuse the reader, especially since there are other unnamed characters in the same scene and I can foresee them getting mixed up.
Post by: shadenight123 on April 11, 2012, 05:33:20 am
btw i usually write 3000 words once every two days. I'm trying to get on a stable rhythm, since somebody introduced me to fanfictions I actually started writing one albeit I know it's horrible, it's a nice exercise.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 11, 2012, 05:41:14 am
since somebody introduced me to fanfictions I actually started writing one albeit I know it's horrible, it's a nice exercise.Horrible? Pfft. A story's a story. There isn't a high or low tier to fiction, and originality be damned; if it's good, it's good.
Re: synonyms. That's exactly where I'm concerned people will get confused. Guess I should bust out a thesaurus, and try to be a big more creative...
Post by: Supermikhail on April 11, 2012, 06:31:35 am
There isn't a high or low tier to fiction, and originality be damned; if it's good, it's good.That certainly depends on the context...
@ Bilgewater DF fiction is not my cup of tea. As publishers say, could you post something else, preferably in the sci-fi genre or more conventional/original fantasy?
@ Grakelin I can see it's a fun occupation. Well, you're published, anyway. I'd like to point out that we've at least got two people who earn their living by putting words on paper/hard drive. And five people who hope to do so. If there were a person with organizational skill, know-how and something special, we probably could get a good ball rolling. ::)
Post by: kaijyuu on April 11, 2012, 06:45:03 am
Well yeah. If you want to make money, you have to care about copyright and all that.There isn't a high or low tier to fiction, and originality be damned; if it's good, it's good.That certainly depends on the context...
Cliches can bore people too, but cliches became cliches because they work (and were overused). Sneak em past the reader's cliche radar and they work just as well as they did the first time.
But my point was there's nothing "horrible" about derivative works. Only practical concerns. A fanfiction can pull just as large an emotional response out of a reader as a completely original work.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 11, 2012, 07:10:47 am
Post by: Supermikhail on April 11, 2012, 08:02:27 am
Scratch that, I know. For its majority's horrible (self-insert) quality. But if it's good, it must be good, I guess, or we wouldn't have "official numnum novels."
Post by: AlStar on April 11, 2012, 09:46:27 am
This is the first ~900 words of intro to what (for me) is a longer project - currently 7,000 words and going strong! - as most of my stuff is best defined as micro-fiction.
Anyway, hopefully I won't bore you all to tears:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 09:48:12 am
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 09:57:23 am
Anyway, hopefully I won't bore you all to tears:Double-Post! Anyways, what occurs to me most here is that first, you'll be wearing chainmail over leather, not under. Then, you're also using the name Max quite frequently when "he" will do, but that's a very minor issue. I found it to be unnoticeable when I got further in and paid less attention to the words and more attention to the picture. Which was done rather well. Some flowery language might be snipped out, like "verdant" may not be instantly understood by everyone, and as they trying to remember what the word means, that's a moment where the picture disappears and the words reappear.
Otherwise very good. You know what you're doing and you know how to make a first draft.
Post by: Willfor on April 11, 2012, 09:59:43 am
Well, for all my rational agreement (and for the thin line over which fanfiction becomes "official numnum novel"), why does it feel so derisible? At least for me. And for my sister, say, and some other folks.
Scratch that, I know. For its majority's horrible (self-insert) quality. But if it's good, it must be good, I guess, or we wouldn't have "official numnum novels."
There are a couple of things that build fanfaction's reputation for being inferior to original fiction. 1) People can unjustly link the fact that an author hasn't created a world of their own to write in with an inability to be properly creative. 2) There is a lot of fanfiction out there, and Sturgeon's Law applies to it. Because there is no barrier to entry except to actually write it, you are able to read anything that anyone was willing to sit down and type out.
Fanfiction is, at the writing level, absolutely no different from any other sort of prose. Of the two sides, the authors who support fanfiction actually recommend writing it to practice your technical skills before you set out to write your own world. The authors who don't support fanfiction are often very concerned with their intellectual properties, and they are worried about getting into a legal battle with an asshole fan who has put out a copyright claim because of their work in the world. There are great points to both sides, actually, but I've always come away from these debates with the distinct impression of "it's perfectly okay to write fanfiction if you're not going to be an asshole about it, and make trouble for the original author."
Probably good life advice in general.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 11, 2012, 10:01:20 am
Since I've given some critiques on some other people's works in the Creative Projects forums, it seems only fair and right that I post some of my stuff to prove that I'm not (totally) talking out of my ass.
This is the first ~900 words of intro to what (for me) is a longer project - currently 7,000 words and going strong! - as most of my stuff is best defined as micro-fiction.
Anyway, hopefully I won't bore you all to tears:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
'It was all just a dream' is done a lot, but this is a competent execution of the idea. Quibbles from the first half:
'deep claw marks ten feet long marked' - as a matter of personal taste, I try to avoid repeating descriptive words in quick succession.
'the entire valley had been teaming with game' - teeming. Alternate, snarkier comment: but then the valley was ejected from the match, leaving game to play a man down. :P
There were some other things I thought, like 'a minor lordling' being redundant, but I'm willing to let those slide if you claim that it's an artifact of it being a kid's dream.
Post by: Fishbreath on April 11, 2012, 10:08:05 am
2) There is a lot of fanfiction out there, and Sturgeon's Law applies to it. Because there is no barrier to entry except to actually write it, you are able to read anything that anyone was willing to sit down and type out.
I'm not sure which side you're taking on that debate, or indeed if you're taking one at all, but I suppose I'm going to make an orthogonal point anyway: there isn't much a barrier of entry to original fiction either, and Sturgeon's Law applies to it just the same (c.f. me). I'd suggest that fanfiction's reputation isn't bad because it's mostly crap, but because it's mostly crap and most fandoms have a large, pre-existing audience, who may not be great writers or critics, but who can identify crap when it's placed next to the original, presumably-not-crap* series.
* By the standards of the fandom, anyway; 'crap' is a subjective point in all but the most obvious cases.
Post by: shadenight123 on April 11, 2012, 10:23:25 am
Usually fanfiction should be about adding original stuff to something, but it can also be written as a way to "personally" (personal likings) alter the plot in a way the writer deems better. Since obviously no one was born a writer, and there are various degrees of writing style, prose and even translation problems (usually writing in english, when you are not english by yourself can be troublesome), the quality varies. Sometime there is no *momentum* the author wants a determined pairing to start working, for example, and writes three lines to explain how it happened. "Naruto sees Hinata walking down the street, realizing how he loves her instead of that stupid Sakura, he runs over to her and confesses his feelings" then he proceeds on writing what he/she deems interesting for her. "The two cuddle next to a fire in the midst of a forest. A slight noise is heard in the background, a bear cub pokes his way through "Kawaii" exclaims Hinata" and things like that. Sometime, fanfiction arise as challenges: "I challenge fanfic writers to write about Warhammer 40k mixed with...jellyfishes!" other time it's for the lemons.
That's what I caught wind off looking around the fanfiction.net site. There are some wonderfully written crossovers or fanfic, and then there are some written badly, but still, it's nice to read them all and see how some people think the same things you do, and wrote them down, albeit badly, and your next thought is:"if they can write this like this. Why can't I try and write it...better?"
Post by: AlStar on April 11, 2012, 10:42:57 am
Anyways, what occurs to me most here is that first, you'll be wearing chainmail over leather, not under.
How dare you question me!
... Anyway, in my mind it's basically a leather coat over the chain, which would be over a cotten garment. I suppose you're probably right that it would go chain -> leather -> undershirt. I had the 'trenchcoated hero' thing going through my head when I wrote that.
Quote
Some flowery language might be snipped out, like "verdant" may not be instantly understood by everyone, and as they trying to remember what the word means, that's a moment where the picture disappears and the words reappear.Curse you vocabulary! Yeah, I'll need to look to that - I've been told I do similar when I talk to people.
Quote from: Fishbreath
'deep claw marks ten feet long marked' - as a matter of personal taste, I try to avoid repeating descriptive words in quick succession.Whoops, yeah, that second one should be 'scarred'.
Quote
'the entire valley had been teaming with game' - teeming.*cough* I totally noticed that before, and was testing the lot of you. You passed. Good work!
Quote
There were some other things I thought, like 'a minor lordling' being redundant, but I'm willing to let those slide if you claim that it's an artifact of it being a kid's dream.I'd imagine that, even between lordlings, there would be some that are more major or minor than others, but yeah, I could probably snip the 'minor' bit.
Quote
'It was all just a dream' is done a lot, but this is a competent execution of the idea.Actually, getting into that idea is what forms the basis of the story, but unless I post more of it (which I can, if anyone's interested) it seemed like a good place to end that bit.
Thanks for the comments all!
Post by: Supermikhail on April 11, 2012, 12:55:47 pm
I think it's clearly visible when the writer is basing his narrative structure on DF's schemes. Well, first, there are names in the hastily-made-up DF style (or taken from DF languages). Then, there's extensive descriptiveness and a lot of exposition. Maybe third is the lack of a good and clear conflict.
I wonder if I'm talking out of my ass. It seems like those are traits of just bad writing. But then they would also characterize an average DF in-game story.
Post by: AlStar on April 11, 2012, 02:23:41 pm
Hi. I'm nearly brand new to the forums and I think I already screwed something up. I posted a DF inspired story to the Community Games & Stories section and after reading a bunch of the other posts in that sub-forum I now realize it probably should have gone in this thread (or hereabouts). You can find the story here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=107003.0), and if someone could let me know what I ought to do with it - or if you want to comment on the story itself - I'd appreciate it.
(note: I realize that you're taking your names directly from your game.) While I know, logically, that names really shouldn't make a difference, and that you could as easily come up with a name by slamming your head into the keyboard for all that it should matter... with all that said, the names just don't sound good.
"Gembishzasit," "the Chartreuse Kingdom," to a lesser extent, "the Tired Jungle." They just don't flow with the narritive well. I was originally going to complain about the character names too, but on a second look, I think they actually work ok - they sound fantasy/foreign without becoming gibberish.
I think that your conversation in the Jungle doesn't flow terribly well, partially due to the way that it's worded, and partially because it's sort of silly and inconsistant. They'll be killed if they go back home? That seems unreasonable, but (as we all know) Dwarven justice is anything but just... But then one of the guards turns back anyway. If Streti thought so poorly of going on, why wouldn't she join the guard? And how would they get back home anyway? They don't have any supplies! One of the mules runs off and they're nearly eating their own boots.
My other problem concerns the line "From inside the walls, a dwarf’s voice called out, “The North Gate, run for the North Gate!”" and the juxtaposition with the prospective shift at the end. Either the defenders know that the caravan is out there, and they should be worried about them burning to death, or they don't, and they shouldn't be calling out to them.
I mean, unless Olin is a real heartless bastard who happened to be sleeping while the rest of the fortress defended the walls (which, as we know, can and will happen) he should know that those aren't fried goblins.
Overall, I felt like too much time was taken up by the bickering in the Jungle and not enough by the epic melee at the end.
Post by: Bilgewater on April 11, 2012, 04:33:02 pm
(note: I realize that you're taking your names directly from your game.)...
Overall, I felt like too much time was taken up by the bickering in the Jungle and not enough by the epic melee at the end.
Thanks for your comments Alstar.
I think names absolutely make a difference, and I agree that the ones I used were not great. I had a little trouble deciding which names I should use and yes, I definitely was using names from my dungeon. Now that I look back, I think I probably should have called Gembishsazit by its translation, Sealknife, which implies an inherent violence and sounds like actual words. I really liked "The Chartreuse Kingdom," if only as a slightly comedic title, but I can see how it would be jarring.
Ah, dialogue. I haven't written much in a while and it was never really my strong point. I'll re-work it. Also, I guess this point didn't really come across (namely because I never explicitly said it) but the caravan is human, not dwarven. I do imply that they're not dwarves, but I guess I ought to include some other clues.
As for the guard who turns back, I was trying to come up with a Bram Stoker-like sense of foreboding. I would explain his behavior as being afraid of a fate worse than death. I mean, personally I'd rather have my head chopped off than get run down in a field by a squad of goblins or burned alive by a dragon, but I get your point.
I'd justify Olin's behavior by saying that he was simply somewhere else when the first dwarf called out to the caravan. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't think dwarves have a psychic link to say "there are humans outside."
Lastly, I think battle scenes become boring very quick. Even exceptionally well written scenes eventually become tired and bogged down in their own bloodshed. Knowing this, I tried to keep it as brusque as possible. Did you think it was anti-climactic or just too short?
Thanks again for your response.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 13, 2012, 07:39:14 pm
Just a note on "not telling the reader the names yet" it can help if you write in a... somewhat personal way. That is, write the thoughts of someone observing the situation, even if there's no one observing. When I did similar, I ended up referring to the old lady as "granny" very often. "He took a swing but granny managed to dodge." By the end of it I was capitalizing Granny as that had become the de-facto name. At least until the name was revealed. But to do that, and assign an arbitrary title to a character, requires just a bit of "invisible observer" type thinking. It becomes just a bit more subjective and just a bit less "neutral statement of facts" if that makes sense.Hrm, makes sense I suppose.
When I see someone I don't know in a crowd or whatever, I tend to identify them visually. By their face, hair style, clothing, etc. That doesn't really translate to a title in my mind, since the identification is entirely non-verbal. If I had to point them out, I'd call them Red Shirt Guy or something.
Fortunately the character I'm writing in the perspective of would be the type of person to assign silly titles and names like that, so it should work!
Post by: kaijyuu on April 19, 2012, 05:29:05 pm
For stuff that's just... eh, should I try and revise it until it's decent, or toss it in a bin and work on something else? From a pure learning/practice perspective. Not like I'm writing anything to be published.
On one hand I feel like revising so that people I give it to for feedback won't point out things I already know, but on the other hand some parts just feel fundamentally unsalvageable and I'm worried I'm wasting my time.
(this is fun though. Next time I sign up for college classes, gonna try for a creative writing class)
Post by: Ehndras on April 19, 2012, 06:04:49 pm
Post by: fqllve on April 19, 2012, 07:36:03 pm
Sometimes when I write a scene that's really a POS I'll rewrite to be as incongruous with the rest of the story as possible but still move the plot in the same direction. That way I can go back and compare the two and see where exactly the original fails. Because sometimes a scene is such a complete trainwreck it's difficult to know where the good begins and ends.
Post by: silverskull39 on April 19, 2012, 08:03:25 pm
I plan to have separate "Raws" for continents, regions, civs, races, organizations, and tech/magic systems.
As an example:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: klingon13524 on April 20, 2012, 03:20:32 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on April 20, 2012, 03:37:05 pm
Mongolia.
Post by: AlStar on April 20, 2012, 04:06:31 pm
Could someone write a short story set in Mongolia?
Semi-serious reply:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Supermikhail on April 20, 2012, 04:10:47 pm
Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about Mongolia, except there was a guy named Ghegis and in the beginning of his career he used to run around the map of Mongolia doing fetch-quests for various tribes with funny names. After that I got stuck.
And re: silverskull39's idea, for me personally recently the story has been much more important than the world properly organized in flowcharts. If you could add in an option to have an interview with a random resident of that world, it would sure be helpful, though.
Post by: silverskull39 on April 20, 2012, 04:52:06 pm
And re: silverskull39's idea, for me personally recently the story has been much more important than the world properly organized in flowcharts. If you could add in an option to have an interview with a random resident of that world, it would sure be helpful, though.
Definitely the story is more important overall, but in my opinion the worlds of many stories are flat and uninteresting, and there are many times where an author will contradict things they've said about the world and the illusion just sort of falls apart for me. Add that to the fact that there are books like The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss where the world is this deep, storied, almost living thing, and I figured i'd try my hand at serious worldbuilding. Due to my usual disorganized style, it has thus far ended badly when I attempt it mostly due to writing just walls upon walls of text where anything useful was lost in the deluge. This is my attempt to break the walls of text into usable chunks organized in a way similar to df's raws. Very General information is given in the files which point elsewhere, to where the detailed breakdown is. Obviously, ymmv, but I figured since I was using a df related style I'd post it here.
Separate conversation, here's a story I wrote a year or two ago. I posted it here then, but was urged to take it down and try to get it published in a magazine or something. I tried a few times, failed, and no longer really care if it gets published officially or not, so here it is. I can't seem to find the most updated version, so this one may be a bit unpolished, but I don't think it's too bad.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Smirfwit on May 16, 2012, 12:44:17 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)