Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: lolsicle on April 19, 2012, 10:19:25 am
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Hey guys, I tried testing this in arena, but the results were inconclusive. Do nethercap arrows or weapons freeze what they hit? It would be quite interesting if they could harm enemies by freezing them.
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does water/booze stored in nethercap buckets/barrels freeze? if not, that should answer your question
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There is likely some heat exchange modeled there, but I don't even think creatures die from the cold, short of being encased in ice (even though blood has a freezing point).
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Put some nethercap items in water and check.
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Nethercap doesn't freeze water or booze. Based on the arena testing, I don't think it works. Damn. Maybe if I lowered the temperature enough, it would.
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Well nethercap logs are SO cold that they are magma resistance soo... perhaps arm hunters (that have no fat) with nethercap bolts and make the hunt imps! It would be like a silver bullet to a werewolf.
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It's not that they are so cold, it's that they stay that temperature in all conditions.
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indeed. What we need to know is to what extent temperature interactions are modeled. Also most organic creatures have the homeotherm tag. That may have an effect as well.
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Hey guys, I tried testing this in arena, but the results were inconclusive. Do nethercap arrows or weapons freeze what they hit? It would be quite interesting if they could harm enemies by freezing them.
Nether-cap arrows and weapons are cold, yes. But they are a quite different magnitude of cold then you are thinking of here. They have a fixed temperature of 10,000 Urists, which is the freezing point of water. So it just means that the level of cold is very similar to touching an ice cube (warmer then that actually), not that it will cause all of your fingers to develop frostbite and fall off.
Nethercap doesn't freeze water or booze. Based on the arena testing, I don't think it works. Damn. Maybe if I lowered the temperature enough, it would.
Water in nether-cap buckets/barrels does not freeze because DF actually accounts for the fact that heat exchange is not perfect. While nether cap does make the surrounding area slightly cooler, it doesn't absorb enough heat energy to freeze water. Assuming you lowered the temperature enough it might freeze things, but water that is stored in barrels/buckets is also slightly abstracted, so it might not.
There is likely some heat exchange modeled there, but I don't even think creatures die from the cold, short of being encased in ice (even though blood has a freezing point).
Cold can kill creatures, but the majority of creatures have enough layering (or clothing) that they are fine. If you set world gen to have a lower minimum temperature and then embark somewhere cold you will notice that dwarves that are exposed outside will develop damage on their exposed body parts.
It's not that they are so cold, it's that they stay that temperature in all conditions.
Correct. The reason nether-cap things are immune to magma is that no matter what temperature they are immersed in they will always have an interior temperature of 10,000 Urists, preventing them from catching fire.
indeed. What we need to know is to what extent temperature interactions are modeled. Also most organic creatures have the homeotherm tag. That may have an effect as well.
Homeotherm tends to set the "default" body temperature of a creature, much as how the "default" temperature of the human body is about 98 degrees. It therefore has a small effect upon what temperature a creature emits towards its surroundings, but currently has very little total effect. It is also believed that it has a small effect upon when a creature starts to take heat/cold damage.
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Correct. The reason nether-cap things are immune to magma is that no matter what temperature they are immersed in they will always have an interior temperature of 10,000 Urists, preventing them from catching fire.
Take that, second law of thermodynamics!
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So what does one urist equal?
--seeing as -247 or something is absolute zero, i'm guessing 10000 urists is like -10 degrees C
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Its around -275 if im correct.
Anyway, you could try lowering the MAT_FIXED_TEMP of nethercap in the raws to 0, then see what happens :D
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It's Fahrenheit with a different name and where 100000 Urists = 32 Fahrenheit.
Incidentally, this means that numbers like 1000 Urists are way below 0 Kelvin/Absolute Zero.
(Once again, suck it, Thermodynamics!)
Anyway, a bucket that is kept at perpetual 32 Fahrenheit/0 Celsius doesn't actually freeze water, necessarily, anyway. 0 Celsius is just the point at which the jump from liquid to solid takes place.
Nethercaps are somehow infinite thermal sinks that are "connected to another dimension" which always retains the same temperature (presumably because it has functionally infinite mass and conducts heat functionally perfectly), functionally causing everything around it to adopt a similar temperature.
There is a jumping point in the energy state between being a solid chunk of ice and becoming a free-floating set of water molecules. The solid ice is at a more stable, lower-energy resting state, and as such, more energy is needed than just the amount of specific energy required to move that temperature up a degree in order to make that jump.
Consider a glass of water with ice in it - for the duration of time the ice is melting, that glass remains at 0 Celsius, because it takes heat energy out of the glass of water in order to force those ice molecules to jump from solid to liquid, but it cannot suck the ambient temperature down below 0 Celsius, barring a Maxwell's Demon scenario. (Freezing water, meanwhile, actually releases heat. This slows the freezing process down, obviously.)
Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity
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Nethercaps are somehow infinite thermal sinks that are "connected to another dimension" which always retains the same temperature (presumably because it has functionally infinite mass and conducts heat functionally perfectly), functionally causing everything around it to adopt a similar temperature.
Of course the DF world makes up for it by having things like magma men that perpetually emit energy to the world around them. :P
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Clearly, the world of DF either has a very strange version of Entropic Decay...
Or hypothetically, the nether dimension are occasionally converted into magma dimensions through infinite compression of their infinite mass, and magma dimensions are infinitely expanded to become new nether dimensions.
... I just thought of a very cool cosmology.
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Given that we have infinite cold sinks and infinite heat sources, it's not actually all that surprising that it's possible to build a perpetual motion machine out of logs and rocks.
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Those lucky dwarves, despite the risk of being stabbed, shots, poisoned, eaten, mauled, enslaved, eviscerated or involved in accidents... at least they don’t have to worry about immediate dangers like the heat death of the universe.
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Those lucky dwarves, despite the risk of being stabbed, shots, poisoned, eaten, mauled, enslaved, eviscerated or involved in accidents... at least they don’t have to worry about immediate dangers like the heat death of the universe.
Physics are awesome and the universe is a troll.
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Given that we have infinite cold sinks and infinite heat sources, it's not actually all that surprising that it's possible to build a perpetual motion machine out of logs and rocks.
Well, I was assuming they were "functionally infinite" (as in, not going to run out any time soon, like how the Sun is a functionally infinite source of energy for as far as humans are concerned), although that does open up some interesting concepts.
One of the things I was thinking of talking about in the alchemical property thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102403.msg3027251#msg3027251) was how we could hypothetically start creating tools of multiple arbitrary magical properties, of the like of nethercaps as perpetual thermal sinks and matching them up against perpetual thermal fountains.
Place a magma-temperature device in a nethercap box to make it "off", but slide the nethercap lid away to generate a heat source like an oven.
Alternately, a magma-temperature sword might come with a wooden nethercap crossguard.
Then, of course, there's the functional free energy reactors if we just plain build a steam engine off of a perpetual thermal fountain reactor with a perpetual thermal sink condenser.
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Well nethercap logs are SO cold that they are magma resistance soo... perhaps arm hunters (that have no fat) with nethercap bolts and make the hunt imps! It would be like a silver bullet to a werewolf.
Toady changed the way fire works, so now burning off all you fat wont make you immume to fire (you win this time, thermodynamics!)
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Given that we have infinite cold sinks and infinite heat sources, it's not actually all that surprising that it's possible to build a perpetual motion machine out of logs and rocks.
Heh heh, a stirling engine with one end made of nether cap and the other end dunked in magma man blood......
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Having done some fairly rigorous testing with extreme cold in DF, I can confirm that creatures will die of frostbite, but it takes quite a while. They also have to be in contact with the cold object for a long time, and it has to be really cold.
EDIT: Sorry, had to leave the computer I was working on. Anyway, yes, frostbite is possible, but rarely fatal in the short term. It took me quite a bit of tinkering to get a material which could reliably cause frostbite, and it ended up being around 2500 U. As a liquid spray, it would coat the target and cause frostbite on all their skin in a relatively short period. Unfortunately, this did not seem to be reliably able to kill on its own, though I'm pretty sure frostbite will cause death by infection if left long enough.
As a weapon, it was nigh useless, as it would only cause the wielder's hand to freeze. When I made a bolt out of it, it only caused frostbite when it lodged in the target, and it still took a while before there was any noticeable effect. Unless it managed to freeze a vital organ (the impact of the arrow/bolt would probably kill/seriously wound the target anyway in this case, as frostbite is very localized), I doubt a frostbite-based arrow/bolt would kill in any reasonable timeframe.
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Wait, then how come I can make charcoal and ash out of nethercaps, unless Dwarven smelters can actually disassemble and reassemble stuff down to a molecular level without using any heat?
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Dbl Post
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Clearly wood furnaces use strong oxidizers, rather than fire.
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Clearly wood furnaces use strong oxidizers, rather than fire.
I shudder to think at what sort of acid/base compounds can actually smelt adamantine.
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Clearly wood furnaces use strong oxidizers, rather than fire.
I shudder to think at what sort of acid/base compounds can actually smelt adamantine.
OR the answer to the riddle is that Dwarves can "turn off" the magic temporarily or are resistant to it, another common fantasy trope.
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I think I've said this before somewhere else, but I've always thought of Dwarves as being Magical as long as it relates to industry.
So they can effectively use their Industrial magic to counteract Nethercaps' magic.
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I made a creature that was essentially human with a fixed temp of zero. It was kindof boring after my unbelievably hot adventurer who could set fire to people with grabs and turn picked up rocks to boiling magma - grabbing people wouldn't really yield any effect, so I wouldn't be hopeful that a mildly cold nethercap weapon would do anything through cold. Actually, the main change for this species was that entering water would cause it to be instantly encased in ice and killed (I was hoping the water would freeze before I stepped in, but that doesn't seem to work).
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I once made two creatures. One that was hotter than the surface of the sun and the other about 0 urists. One had dragon fire breath. The other had vapor breath attack of a 0 urist liquid. I think the latter one was more deadly because while testing in arena even if I managed to wash off the super cold liquid it would still cause what ever I was playing to steadily freeze to death after about 20 to 100 frames depending on the size of the creature. And part of the reason it was more deadly is probably thanks to the fact the those vapors flows aren't blocked by shields. But this was quite a while ago, some time around the "acid" rain bug.
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In the modding forum there's a 'community spellbook' thread with a number of freezing vapor interactions, which are deadly to both target and user without cold resistance.
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So if one could make a full set of nethercap armor, could one then make a magmaproof dwarf?
Well not magmaproof, since immersing said dwarf in 7/7 magma would still end with the dwarf on fire, but maybe magmaresistant, so that one's dwarves could wade in 3/7 magma without harm?
Hmm, if that is the case, then it is good that elves only use wood that they have grown themselves.
If elves had access to nethercap.....*SHUDDER*
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Well nethercap logs are SO cold that they are magma resistance soo... perhaps arm hunters (that have no fat) with nethercap bolts and make the hunt imps! It would be like a silver bullet to a werewolf.
Toady changed the way fire works, so now burning off all you fat wont make you immume to fire (you win this time, thermodynamics!)
Hmmm, then we'll call it a bug when I flooded my fort with magma to end it, and my dwarves all swam around in it until it reached 7/7, and they began drowning.
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So if one could make a full set of nethercap armor, could one then make a magmaproof dwarf?
Well not magmaproof, since immersing said dwarf in 7/7 magma would still end with the dwarf on fire, but maybe magmaresistant, so that one's dwarves could wade in 3/7 magma without harm?
would save their feet when walking through "puddle/smear of magma" It would not save them from actual liquid magma. I recall even 2/7 and 3/7 liquid will completely cover every part of a dwarf.
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So if one could make a full set of nethercap armor, could one then make a magmaproof dwarf?
Well not magmaproof, since immersing said dwarf in 7/7 magma would still end with the dwarf on fire, but maybe magmaresistant, so that one's dwarves could wade in 3/7 magma without harm?
would save their feet when walking through "puddle/smear of magma" It would not save them from actual liquid magma. I recall even 2/7 and 3/7 liquid will completely cover every part of a dwarf.
Yes, but if you have a full set of clothing, with at least one of every type of clothing that has a [COVERAGE = 100] tag in the raws, then you should be fully covered. After a quick glance just now, it does indeed appear to me as if this is the case. Hoods, for example, have 100% head coverage.
As long as each item is coded as "100%" coverage, DF will not worry about things like how dwarves can see out of a 100% coverage hood, or how they breathe, etc. It should still fully protect you, whether it actually makes logical sense or not.
Setting aside the problem that you can't make wooden hoods, of course... elves might have such things, or artifacts, though, so it is theoretically POSSIBLE without modding.
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Don't robes cover the entire body with 100% coverage? Just edit robes to be made of wood.
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I'm fairly certain that since the magma update (to fix dwarves with all of their fat melted off not dying) even if you have 100% coverage you still die.. It takes quite a bit longer, potentially making it possible to quickly walk into the magma and then walk out again, but if you remain in there for a little while then you still die.
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I'm fairly certain that since the magma update (to fix dwarves with all of their fat melted off not dying) even if you have 100% coverage you still die.. It takes quite a bit longer, potentially making it possible to quickly walk into the magma and then walk out again, but if you remain in there for a little while then you still die.
well then we just have to make the DWARVES out of nethercap.
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Well nethercap logs are SO cold that they are magma resistance soo... perhaps arm hunters (that have no fat) with nethercap bolts and make the hunt imps! It would be like a silver bullet to a werewolf.
Toady changed the way fire works, so now burning off all you fat wont make you immume to fire (you win this time, thermodynamics!)
Hmmm, then we'll call it a bug when I flooded my fort with magma to end it, and my dwarves all swam around in it until it reached 7/7, and they began drowning.
Well, I'm pretty sure toady did that for the 2012 release. That must of been a early version, but anyway I would much prefer to see dwarf running around screaming and on fire than swimming happly.
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Don't robes cover the entire body with 100% coverage? Just edit robes to be made of wood.
....Then make adamantine robes o.O?
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If I remember correctly, [MAT_FIXED_TEMP], which Nether Cap is the only vanilla material I know of that has that tag, doesn't emit temperature. That is, it doesn't change the temperature of anything it comes into contact to. However, using [MELTING_POINT] and [BOILING_POINT], which sets the temperature ranges at which it's a solid(below [MELTING_POINT]), liquid(between the two), and gas(above [BOILING_POINT]), you can freeze stuff that way, I think.
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I recently experimented with melting stuff in adventure mode. Got a chunk of some fire demon, which had a fixed temp of 25000 °U. Put in a backpack with some stones or metal objects, it almost immediately melted them (and ignited the backpack). The only materials weren't affected were adamantine and dolomite (melts at about 16500 °U). I guess that's because of environment's influence, not sure, was it direct or through the backpack. If latter, maybe bag sewn of fire webber demon silk could solve the problem. Also, speaking of demon silk, there was some talk about it recently and it seems that it always has a fixed temperature like the demon itself, and if demon isn't material-based (those usually have some strange temp values), it works almost like nether-cap. Dwarves covered in such silks unfortunately won't become magma-proof, but it does help aganist fireballs.
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So if one could make a full set of nethercap armor, could one then make a magmaproof dwarf?
Doesn't work in Arena Mode as stepping into 1/7 lava with a full set of armor still kills you by melting exposed fingers, toes, and your mouth. The only way around that is with a cloak and you can't make those out of wood.
If you add in a thread-bearing plant that has the same qualities as nethercap wood and make clothes out of that cloth, it might work.
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Nethecap robe:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oYFovx5d8ek/TaLkt2coSQI/AAAAAAAAAzk/18krIkWRNS8/s400/hazmat-suit-blue.jpg)
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Adding a thread plant with nether-cap's properties seems to work just the same as wooden armor made of nether-cap, but test goblins in the arena with a robe, chausses, and hoods, all made of icicle grass, on top of a full set of nethercap armor still have two fingers on each hand, two toes on each foot, and their mouth melt, which kills them fairly quickly by bleeding out. Apparently, no matter how much coverage you have, those parts are still exposed.