Great reply's and kudo's to Toady for not selling out to the big game companies, they would just ruin it anyway! Look how complicated Civilization is, still not as complicated as DF I know, but it was able to be developed in a way that graphically portrayed the game and streamlined the GUI. Even if he is not in it for the money, I would think Toady would like to see more people appreciate and enjoy this great game. I know he is a one man army so it really isn't feasible unless he had a team but I guess one can only wish.
** Also, when I said Devs I meant Toady and brother, they are considered developers no?
The way I look at it.... imagine earth 10,000 years in the future and we have VR games indistinguishable from reality. People would still make 8bit games and use ASCII because people will always find merit in the game mechanics. 3D or beyond that VR enable different mechanics, but therein lies the only difference to a game player. In 10,000 years we won't care about graphics.You're optimistic. I would have thought we'd drive ourselves to extinction long before then.
Great reply's and kudo's to Toady for not selling out to the big game companies, they would just ruin it anyway! Look how complicated Civilization is, still not as complicated as DF I know, but it was able to be developed in a way that graphically portrayed the game and streamlined the GUI. Even if he is not in it for the money, I would think Toady would like to see more people appreciate and enjoy this great game. I know he is a one man army so it really isn't feasible unless he had a team but I guess one can only wish.
** Also, when I said Devs I meant Toady and brother, they are considered developers no?
To put it short: Toady (the one-man army* who's developing this game) isn't very interested in gaining huge amounts of money or in hitting the mainstream market, especially if it leads the game away from his vision.Anyways, have you taken two seconds to think of the ramifications? Not only slower development, but a MASSIVE amount of work to make the transition. Tiles would need to be completely abolished, just think of all that happens in DF worlds (from goblins lashing infants out of their mothers' arms to starving dwarves butchering puppies to nakedness to the procedurally generated creatures to eyes rotting out to bloody waterfalls), even without the typical DF macabre humor. And don't get me started on FPS.
Minecraft doesn't really have a business model, does it? It just got lucky.Valve pointed out Minecraft to the general public in one of their blogs, and that got the game to really boom. It looked as if it was already on the slow track to success if Valve didn't step in, though.
For example, A Game of Dwarves, Gnomoria, and another one I cannot remember the name of in development that actually sounds closer to DF). If someone actually has the ability to put the pieces together and merge modern day graphics with the similar kind of complexity or Dwarf Fortress and a fluid GUI, they will have a hit and Bay 12 Games will be missing out.You are on the wrong forum with your, millions of people & missing opportunity blah, blah, blah talk!
I think it's time DF went 3D and were put out to the mainstream. People are hungry for a game like that, just look how successful Minecraft has become.
The devs are missing out on a great almost "untapped", pun intended, opportunity here to really become a household name. As long as this game stays ASCII 2D with or without tile sets, it will never hit the mainstream and millions of people will never know its greatness. It's time to get with the future devs, you really are missing out on an a great opportunity here.
DF will never go 3D because that would mean you actually could see what's going on. Which means you could see all the nudity and bloody, gory, gruesome violence.Not to mention the purely impossible stuff- some of the creatures we get, stabbing somebody in the tongue from behind and only severing it, quantum stockpiles...
Using the forearm to hold the tooth and bolts somehow managing to hurt both liver and heart.DF will never go 3D because that would mean you actually could see what's going on. Which means you could see all the nudity and bloody, gory, gruesome violence.Not to mention the purely impossible stuff- some of the creatures we get, stabbing somebody in the tongue from behind and only severing it, quantum stockpiles...
I'd say making a creature more 3D by increasing it's size in X, Y, Z is doable, as for how the creature would look is another matter , but it could be doable as well by using some standarized body parts that can be extended and moded to fit the type of creature in question.
Toady never answers the ui/graphics questions in a definite answer.A definite answer would most likely chase off some of the people waiting for a ui/graphics overhaul and with them donations.These questions have been around for 6 years. Toady just doesn't repeat his answers every 2 months.
Rainseeker: [...] Our next one's coming from Jim DeMont: 'What are your plans to make the game more accessible to new players?'
Toady: We have plans, who knows when, as usual, but the plans we have for that are ... There are a couple of things that keep people out of the game, mainly. One of the big impediments of course is the ASCII display; as we've seen from some of the utilities that have been popping up, more people would be playing the game if they had a reasonable look, tiles and all that isometric type stuff, all that kind of thing. And we're planning to support that stuff over time, there's issues there of course that we've gone over in the past about how fast development will be, how many other people need to be brought on board and what kind of trouble that can cause. But aside from that there's the issue of the interface as a larger picture, just in terms of having keys that are consistent and make sense, mouse support's a huge thing for people, and we're planning on doing that thing. The main thing there is uncoupling Dwarf Fortress from all the curses crap that has been there for years which is the ASCII stuff that ties it in so you can't have variable width fonts right now which you'd really want to have to have bigger tiles and have a smaller menu that can hide off somewhere by itself. And there's also the notion of now ... Even if you had a streamlined interface and graphical characters and so on, the game would still be very inaccessible because you still start the game and your dwarves would just be milling around and you still wouldn't know what to do. Tutorials seem like a very reasonable thing, I know a few people are against them for whatever reason but I don't see another way. There'd need to be quite a few tutorials and it would be good to explore ways to make those as fun as possible, because sometimes a tutorial can really be a hassle. So it'll take some work to get those polished but you've just got to make sure people know how to dig, they know how to make buildings, and do the other jobs that the dwarves need to do, and also get across some of those concepts about how the world works, and how it's okay to fail, and you're encouraged to let your game die and that kind of thing.
Rainseeker: Because it goes on. Your game is connected to the entire world, so if you build a new ...
Toady: Yeah, it's good to get that thing across and so a tutorial's actually a good platform in that sense to instil some of the overarching concepts of the game, I wouldn't say how it's meant to be played, but just how it can be played. So that's the three pronged thing we've got right now. I could have missed some of the little dev items that are there, and other items that have been floated in the 'What turns you off about Dwarf Fortress?' thread and so on. I know there are a lot of good ideas in there, but the three things that spring to mind immediately are graphics, consistent controls with mouse support and tutorials.
If Toady ever plans to get more in donations then he is currently getting, more depth isnt going to do it.It will take at the least a ui overhaul and most likely stone sense style graphics.Toady doesn't plan to get more in donations, though. Toady wants to make Dwarf Fortress, and he gets enough money to continue doing it.
Minecraft doesn't really have a business model, does it? It just got lucky.Valve pointed out Minecraft to the general public in one of their blogs, and that got the game to really boom. It looked as if it was already on the slow track to success if Valve didn't step in, though.
Does Toady rely only on DF donations to survive? Pay his bills etc etcI'm pretty sure he does. Such is the life of the hungry game developer.
What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.
Minecraft doesn't really have a business model, does it? It just got lucky.Valve pointed out Minecraft to the general public in one of their blogs, and that got the game to really boom. It looked as if it was already on the slow track to success if Valve didn't step in, though.
Does Toady rely only on DF donations to survive? Pay his bills etc etc
What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.
Toady never answers the ui/graphics questions in a definite answer.A definite answer would most likely chase off some of the people waiting for a ui/graphics overhaul and with them donations.
The Sept report shows he is surprised nobody is excited.I can only guess his deduction that we arent excited is shown in the low amount of donations.
If Toady ever plans to get more in donations then he is currently getting, more depth isnt going to do it.It will take at the least a ui overhaul and most likely stone sense style graphics.
I myself love the game,its a fantastic game with so much depth and detail its amazing.
There's a big difference between multi-tile static (or mostly static) objects, and multi-tile objects that move around constantly. There would also be game balancing issues which we don't have right now because of abstractness.
Think about wagons. If a wagon takes up 9x the area of a dwarf, and a dragon is a few dozen times as large, how many tiles would a dragon be? There are many creatures that take up massive amounts of space compared to a dwarf, but take the same tile size. If we increased this, they wouldn't be able to invade dwarves, and would just be trapped outside.
While from a story telling perspective, it's fun to just escape by running through a pass smaller than the creature chasing you, it's very abusable gameplay-wise. If we had 1-tile wide entrances, most dangerous/large enemies wouldn't be able to attack us, and we could just hide inside and take pot shots. Then what about rats and creatures as small to a dwarf as a dwarf is to a titan? Would tiles need to be made smaller, or would they magically be considered as big as a dwarf while a dragon is larger?
There's a big difference between multi-tile static (or mostly static) objects, and multi-tile objects that move around constantly. There would also be game balancing issues which we don't have right now because of abstractness.
Think about wagons. If a wagon takes up 9x the area of a dwarf, and a dragon is a few dozen times as large, how many tiles would a dragon be? There are many creatures that take up massive amounts of space compared to a dwarf, but take the same tile size. If we increased this, they wouldn't be able to invade dwarves, and would just be trapped outside.
While from a story telling perspective, it's fun to just escape by running through a pass smaller than the creature chasing you, it's very abusable gameplay-wise. If we had 1-tile wide entrances, most dangerous/large enemies wouldn't be able to attack us, and we could just hide inside and take pot shots. Then what about rats and creatures as small to a dwarf as a dwarf is to a titan? Would tiles need to be made smaller, or would they magically be considered as big as a dwarf while a dragon is larger?
While I agree about your thoughts about this matter I still think it's pretty much doable, remember Toady has said he wants invaders to be able to dig , climb walls and probably also affect terrain in some way (a giant smashing an entrance to pulp for example trapping dwarves inside) , but yes, I do not disagree that it will definitely be a big brainer issue.
I will think though that some of the megabeasts will instead be smarter and prey on your outside dwarves, dragons would use their firy breath more and so on, perhaps they would even send "minions" to mass invade your fortress (Dragon commanding a goblin force). There's definitely many possibilities.
Does Toady rely only on DF donations to survive? Pay his bills etc etcYes, as far as we are aware this is his only job (He may double on the side as batman or something, But I doubt he would tell us that.) Yes, there are PLENTY of Toady's answers to this question, most are quoted in threads like these. Hell, I've seen one in a signature. Point is, Yes, UI is needed and, eventually, going to be re-worked. Graphics are not. Even if the computers of the future could handle it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117552.msg3684584#msg3684584), it'd be a absolutely MASSIVE task to undertake. Massive. Even the thought of it terrifies me. Giving Graphics to a DF of the Future would require at least a Nobel Prize in recompense.
What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.
Toady never answers the ui/graphics questions in a definite answer.A definite answer would most likely chase off some of the people waiting for a ui/graphics overhaul and with them donations.
The Sept report shows he is surprised nobody is excited.I can only guess his deduction that we arent excited is shown in the low amount of donations.
If Toady ever plans to get more in donations then he is currently getting, more depth isnt going to do it.It will take at the least a ui overhaul and most likely stone sense style graphics.
I myself love the game, its a fantastic game with so much depth and detail its amazing.
Even thinking of the logistical head-aches from that is mind-blowing.
There's a big difference between multi-tile static (or mostly static) objects, and multi-tile objects that move around constantly. There would also be game balancing issues which we don't have right now because of abstractness.
Think about wagons. If a wagon takes up 9x the area of a dwarf, and a dragon is a few dozen times as large, how many tiles would a dragon be? There are many creatures that take up massive amounts of space compared to a dwarf, but take the same tile size. If we increased this, they wouldn't be able to invade dwarves, and would just be trapped outside.
While from a story telling perspective, it's fun to just escape by running through a pass smaller than the creature chasing you, it's very abusable gameplay-wise. If we had 1-tile wide entrances, most dangerous/large enemies wouldn't be able to attack us, and we could just hide inside and take pot shots. Then what about rats and creatures as small to a dwarf as a dwarf is to a titan? Would tiles need to be made smaller, or would they magically be considered as big as a dwarf while a dragon is larger?
While I agree about your thoughts about this matter I still think it's pretty much doable, remember Toady has said he wants invaders to be able to dig , climb walls and probably also affect terrain in some way (a giant smashing an entrance to pulp for example trapping dwarves inside) , but yes, I do not disagree that it will definitely be a big brainer issue.
I will think though that some of the megabeasts will instead be smarter and prey on your outside dwarves, dragons would use their firy breath more and so on, perhaps they would even send "minions" to mass invade your fortress (Dragon commanding a goblin force). There's definitely many possibilities.
It's very much doable, and an AI rework will come eventually, but I really think this is so far away that anything we say now will not matter. By the time we get to these things, our very core mechanics could've completely changed.
What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.
I see the conversation is civil so far but really why is everyone feeding such an obvious troll? This topic always devolves.
I see the conversation is civil so far but really why is everyone feeding such an obvious troll? This topic always devolves.
I'm confused. Are you happy that we're not being rude and starting a fight, or upset that we're not being rude and starting a fight?
Because you seem to be saying the former while being the latter. ???
Personally, I don't think the OP is a troll at all.
devs
Woah, missed that. Yeah, do basic research before commenting on a game.I noticed it but someone else called him out on it.
I happen to recall in skyrim where a dragon had some weird clipping issue upon landing which resulted in an awkward sliding to pete know's where. This destroys games so badly.The idea of PETA learning about dwarf fortress is funnier then FOX news learning about Liberal Crime Squad.
My point is, graphics=good is so horribly, horribly false.
Besides, PETA would have a fit over the kittenpults, and the mainstream wouldn't like dwarven childcare.
Okay. Now Toady is officialy Batman for me. Thank you for opening my eyes.Does Toady rely only on DF donations to survive? Pay his bills etc etcYes, as far as we are aware this is his only job (He may double on the side as batman or something, But I doubt he would tell us that.)
DF is the future of games. For me at least. 3D graphics are already stagnating, just look at this (I know it's not the whole truth):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In 10 years the people will be bored and the companies have to bring some gimmicks like 3D glasses and shit to keep you playing. DF will be still the same then, just deeper as any game there ever was. There is your preferable future...
Yeah, this explains why so many people voluntarily blind themselves, and just have other people give them vague descriptions of what's going on.Not over the top enough, really.
You crazy imagination loving hipsters... real life is in 3D, so anything attempting "realism" would probably want, at some point, to represent that facet of the real world.
Once again, I'm not saying DF would or should ever be 3D for technical reasons, but come on now...DF is the future of games. For me at least. 3D graphics are already stagnating, just look at this (I know it's not the whole truth):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In 10 years the people will be bored and the companies have to bring some gimmicks like 3D glasses and shit to keep you playing. DF will be still the same then, just deeper as any game there ever was. There is your preferable future...
That's just a bunch of elf talk.
Yeah, definately way, way too much detail to show, especially in 'skyrim' graphics.http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Visualize
Yes, true enough, the game is 3D, just not the graphics.
I personally wouldn't mind some isometric 3Dish graphics, it would help a lot in visuallizing multi-z level structures and such. With simple tile based graphics, not even attempting to show details.
Long story short: If you want "User friendly GUI", leave now. It will Never happen.
Toady doesn't want to work with other programmers. So no matter who wins the sock fight, he says no.I know, I said this earlier, what with the Toady being Batman as a side job and such. The point being, He will make it the way he likes if the whole wide world played or no one played it (although he would also look into lucrative side-jobs). Really, how it strikes me is he using his coder talents and mathmatical skills to make a game, and people happen to like it and send him moneys.