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Other Projects => Other Games => Play With Your Buddies => Topic started by: MCreeper on February 03, 2022, 01:54:08 am

Title: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: MCreeper on February 03, 2022, 01:54:08 am
After a very long break we are starting another round!

Game: Bay12GamesRound505 (https://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound505)
Map: Valanis, TheFinn Revision (https://www.mediafire.com/file/r418wjatdgle3gy/Valanis_TheFinn_Revision.rar/file)
Mods: None
Era: Middle
Hosting Period: 30h
Score Graphs: Off
Hall of Fame Size: 15
Research: Standard
Random Starting Research: Off
Global Slots: 7
Story Events: All
Renaming: On
Victory: Thrones of Ascension
Ascension points required for victory: 12
Number of level 1 thrones: 0
Number of level 2 thrones: 0
Number of level 3 thrones: 6
Cataclysm: Disabled
All other settings on default


Player list:


Spoiler: How does PBEM work? (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Previous Bay12 rounds (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 04, 2022, 09:52:11 am
Ah, shit. Let better judgement be reserved for better times.
I'm in with Phlegra.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 04, 2022, 11:41:41 am
Quote from: MCreeper on February 04, 2022, 10:32:10 am
Graphs were that way because i copied them from previous round without looking. Of course they are off.
How about Snerdryn (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1492119021&searchtext=) for a map? Should be fine for now maybe eight players.

I'm fine with Pymous maps. Hopefully we'll end up with the right number of water nations, but I guess it's not the end of the world if we don't. (so long as we don't end up with too many :P)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 04, 2022, 12:48:04 pm
I'm NOT fine with Pymous maps. I love how they look, but their load capacity is lower than their province count suggests b/c they're overconnected. They date to the era of Dom4 maps where maximizing connectivity was considered the ne plus ultra of map design, and it really hurts them. The mean distance b/tw two provinces is lowered when you raise connectivity, with the end result of reducing the space b/tw nations to an alarming degree.

I'm also not willing to pick a nation w/o knowing what map we're going to be on, as I'm looking at water and coastal nations fairly closely since Ind, Na'Ba, and Phlegra are gone.

(Loading a test game on Snerdryn at 7 + 1 got me every nation with at least 1 capital 3 spaces away (aka 1 space b/tw cap circles) and some with as many as 3 like that. It'd be pretty cramped, and there's a real chance of effectively losing on turn 1.)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 04, 2022, 01:35:19 pm
I'm not terribly married to the idea of playing any nation, so if anyone wants Phlegra, just say the word.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 04, 2022, 06:16:31 pm
Nah, it's fine. I don't like the fluff on them, and frankly the MA version is the most boring version of that nation. I'll figure something else out.

It's probably slightly larger than ideal, but if there's a broad preference for Pymous maps, what about Edowyn? It's not quite as overconnected as most of the other ones, not least b/c it's only EW-wrap.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 04, 2022, 07:21:35 pm
It wouldn't be a B12 Dominions game without E. Atlantis, so hopefully we can sort out the water thing.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 05, 2022, 12:03:05 am
I've got to admit, I like maps with high connectivity and closeness between players. The standard for randomly generated maps in the discord community (in games with 16 provinces per players, IE: Medium sized) seems to be 3 provinces between capitals with 4 neighbors. Even more connections then your cramped test game. And I like those maps, because with so many close neighbors your decisions are ultimately driven by the gamestate and your own determination of whats best and how you navigate it instead of relying on geography to dictate the flow of the game. You don't end up in situations where someone gets a particularly poor or good start (past who they draw as their neighbors) and the game tumbles from there, or where the game leader can't be stopped from achieving victory because the runner ups are too far away to hinder them unless the map is very big.

That said, that's just like, my opinion man. And I've certainly heard enough people say things that echo your statements. I also don't really mind "less connected" maps, or whatever, and if you want to suggest a map more to your tastes, I think I'd be fine with most so long as it's not wildly poorly connected. Looking at you Isles of Nippon'ia cave system.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 05, 2022, 02:54:00 am
It's really not true that high-connectivity maps give even starts though. They really don't unless the map is balanced for the number of players, and that's very often not true when you're dealing with the numbers recommended for popular maps. E.g., here's a test on Snerdyn with 8 land players:

Scelaria: 2x3, 4x4, 1x6
Ashdod: 3x3, 3x4, 1x6
Man: 3x3, 1x4, 2x6
Uruk: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Ctis: 3x3, 2x4, 2x6
Ermor: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Shin: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Arco: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6

Fairly even, right? Here's the next one with 7+1 (plus I remembered to set thrones this time):

Naz: neighbors 1x2, 2x3, 3x4, 2x5 / thrones 1x0, 1x2, 2x3, 1x5, 1x6
Mari: 1x2, 2x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 1x0, 2x1, 1x4, 1x5, 1x6
Asph: 1x2, 2x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 2x2, 2x4, 1x5, 1x7
Xib: 6x4, 1x5 / 1x2, 3x4, 2x5 
Ash: 3x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 1x1, 1x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6
Pan: 3x3, 1x4, 3x5 / 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x5, 1x6
Rhy: 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 3x5, 1x6 / 1x1, 1x2, 1x4, 3x5
Mach: 3x3, 2x4, 3x5 / 1x2, 2x4, 3x5

4 of 8 have touching cap circles. 2 of 8 have thrones in their cap circles. Xib by far has the best start even before we look at the thrones, but it did better there too. And mind you, since there's an UW nation in this set, the engine had more room to spread nations out in this case yet did far worse balancing them. This actually is quite in keeping w/my experience with dense maps. Better and worse starts are certainly possible - the margin of error is eliminated and it's much harder for the engine to consistently evenly space players at the province counts per capita these maps advertise themselves as being designed for simply because the max distance b/tw any two points on the map is necessarily smaller.

High connectivity also minimizes or eliminates consideration from ritual range, and dramatically impacts dominion spread dynamics. It's not that geography doesn't dictate the game - geography is sidelined or eliminated as a strategic consideration. High mobility nations are weaker, and heavy infantry is stronger. Diplomacy is less important b/c close proximity means you're much more likely to be able to directly impact any given conflict, and nations will collapse faster b/c the distance b/tw the front line and the rear is minimal (with multiple paths from here to there) so there's less time to recover from strategic losses (and thus players will either tend to be strong or dead). It's a style of map that works best for minimal or no diplomacy blitz-style games where strategy is simple, blunt, and often less important than tactics. I'm keenly aware that there's a fanbase for that type of game, but I've never liked it personally.

(Yes, I have far stronger opinions about this than are warranted. *sigh*)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 05, 2022, 08:05:44 am
Well, of course a map with the wrong number of players will give unbalanced starts, without a map specifically generated to the number of players and the specific nations and with fixed starts you'll never get a really balanced start in a map. It is not perfect in Pymous for sure. I do think it is egregiously worse in maps with janky connections though, the placement decision making in the game is very bad and my experience is that you can and will get totally screwed by it on maps that have interesting/dominating geography. Being 4 provinces away from someone instead of 3 is no comfort if those are the only 4 provinces you have access too, which is the sorta thing the placement engine likes to pull in my experience.

As for the rest, for the most part I think I mostly think the strength of what you're saying is more then what I'd say, but not the direction :P. On highly connected maps ritual range concerns are reduced, but are still important. Geography doesn't dominate, but the specific province types still matter for expansion and fort placement, which then goes onto shape the flow of the game. River crossings and mountain passes still matter, even if ultimately they only block for 1-2 turns, because 1-2 turns can absolutely still be vital. Relative strength of flying vs slow troops is of course, relative, flying is still a huge bonus and being slow still matters, it's just less dominating of a concern, I'd say it's more like slow troops are actually usable instead of irrelevant :P. People do sorta tend die faster though in the early game though yes, although I'd say that there's more of a chance that you're able to actually survive a superior enemy via using diplomacy to secure allies.

That said, in those cases our opinions are really just the degree of difference from each other I think. I think we agree on the general effects, just disagree on how much and if it's good or bad? The thing I really heavily disagree with you on is diplomacy and strategy. I think in a high connectivity map diplomacy and strategy matters much more since you'll have multiple close neighbors, your ability to conduct diplomacy to make sure that you're not going to get gang banged by them is one of if not the most important skills that determine your capability to win the game. Not to mention with multiple possible enemies diplomacy and your strategy has a larger hand in dictating who you end up fighting. You have to craft a strategy that takes into account all of your neighbors in the long or short term. In a low connectivity game there's way less room for diplomacy and decision making. You fight who you fight, because the needs of geography has dictated that you fight them. You spawned relatively near a dude and everyone else is some island chain or giant impassible mountain away? There's no diplomacy or strategy there, your game has been set from turn 1, hopefully your nation doesn't suck against theirs.

All that said, like I mentioned, I'd still be okay playing in a low connectivity game. I like the higher ones more but don't have any issue with the lower ones. I'm mostly interested in seeing what you would suggest for a map. Like I said, I think I'd be fine with most maps. Out of the past 4 games I played (which, a number chosen because those are the games I've played partially within this year and thus can remember :P), 3 were of lower connectivity style maps with dominating geography, and I can appreciate these games as well.

And don't worry, I also have too strong of opinions on the effects of geography on dominions games :P. We may have drawn opposite conclusions, but we're both together in the thinking about this too much club.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 05, 2022, 09:02:57 am
Yeah, too much thinking! Bad gamers, bad! More Leeroy Jenkins, please.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 05, 2022, 09:59:17 am
Wouldn't Edowyn be pretty damn huge, though? That's, combined, over 25 provinces per player. Is Valanis fine, or no wraparound is an issue? Thought that is rather big too. Probably we will end with nice old Peliwyr.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 05, 2022, 10:30:06 am
Edowyn and Valanis would both be pretty big for the number of players that we have. I don't mind playing a bigger game though if people like them more. Isles of Nippon'ia is 16/player so long as you don't mind it's eye searing color and cave system. End world is the right size but guh it's winter version is so fucking ugly and it's really not much more then a fancy randomly generated map. Hollow world is ugly as sin but if you want interesting and game defining geography there it is, although it might be a bit too small for 8 players. Peham is a cool map, might be a bit small for 8 players, played it with 7 and it was pretty cramped although with 2 underwater nations it might work...

Well, this is just my first thoughts, there's a LOT of maps out there. Even if most seem to be made for a slightly larger game. So, idk lol. I'm sure we can find something that everyone likes. Although partially it depends on if people are waiting on seeing the map to pick nations vs waiting for others to pick nations before looking for maps. Not sure what our goal there should be.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 05, 2022, 10:37:57 am
We could, say, let people propose a number of maps (as many as they like) for a day or two. And then pick one from the list at random.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 05, 2022, 10:45:07 am
I'm not sure if we need to pick from random... Just... Suggest a map you like, if someone suggests one you don't like, say why and offer an alternative. MCreeper put up Snerdryn which most people seemed fine with, E. Albright doesn't like it, I think Albright should suggest a map that they like and then the rest of us can look it over, and if we don't have a problem with it, we can simply use it, and that way everyone is happy.

Edit: Edowyn was suggested, although my read of that was that it was begrudgingly done so as an alternative Pymous map? However if that map is actually a good map in Albrights opinion, I'll say I'm perfectly happy with it, although it's for sure very big, and if people have a problem with it being too big I'd be okay with something else too. Valanis is fine with me too. I prefer wrap around maps, but am fine without them.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 05, 2022, 12:44:11 pm
I'd be fine with Valanis. I thought it was important enough as a map for the community to go to the trouble of winterizing it, after all. :p

Since it's not a wrapped map, connectivity is immediately reduced dramatically - max distance b/tw two points on an unwrapped map is generally ~2/3s that of a 1D wrap or ~1/2 of a 2D wrap. I hadn't suggested Valanis b/c I've seen it held in contempt by a lot of people, but I've always liked it. The size is probably a bit better than Edowyn TBH.

If you want something that's more connected but not wrapped, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Sharivar (because it's pretty). The province count is a bit higher than Valanis (and certainly Snerdyn) but lower than Edowyn. It's also less chokepointed than the original Dom2 or revised Dom3 version since rivers and mountains aren't perforce impassable. That's not on Steam, but the winterized/rivers/mountains/roads version I uploaded to Dominionmods was still available last I checked, and/or I could upload it to Steam myself, ugh. Sharivar would be best w/o any UW nation, but it can handle 1.

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 05, 2022, 08:05:44 am
Well, of course a map with the wrong number of players will give unbalanced starts, without a map specifically generated to the number of players and the specific nations and with fixed starts you'll never get a really balanced start in a map.

The problem is that the number of players that are recommended for popular high-connectivity maps is pretty much still just derived from province count w/o accounting for how much worse the engine necessarily does w/start positions when connectivity is high. A highcon map will consistently produce worse starting positions than a lowcon map with the same number of provinces at the provinces/player numbers that are popular, b/c those numbers were fixed in the community's mind before Dom4, when connectivity was typically 2/3s what it is now with wrap being less common (but rituals had no range limits). It's easy to measure player load in terms of province per player, so the tendency has been to just kinda pretend that's the only relevant factor and assumed that if a map performs worse than expected for a given province/player count it's b/c the map is "bad" rather than considering the limits of that metric.

I feel tempted to blame the age-old issue of division of talents: creative people who can do the hard work of making the graphical map aren't necessarily the same abstruse people who can (or want to) do the hard work of calculating the obnoxious graph theory ramifications of how the maps are put together...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 06, 2022, 01:39:56 am
Unless anyone else wants to play MA Mictlan, I'll make a formal claim to that nation.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: kriv02 on February 06, 2022, 03:07:01 am
I'll take Agartha. For maps, I suggest Floating Archipelago, but I'm fine with whatever.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: kriv02 on February 06, 2022, 03:11:25 am
Btw, what's the standard way of conducting diplo here?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 06, 2022, 04:10:20 am
Quote from: kriv02 on February 06, 2022, 03:11:25 am
Btw, what's the standard way of conducting diplo here?
Through forum personal messages.

Looks like Valanis is fine now, though i wonder if RexMundi is still in. He has'nt been on forum for three days.  :-\
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 06, 2022, 07:40:56 am
The steam version of Valanis ('the finn revision') is ok?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 06, 2022, 12:31:04 pm
I have no clue what it is, but see no reason why it isn't.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 06, 2022, 12:31:51 pm
It's the only version of valanis in steam workshop.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 06, 2022, 02:08:22 pm
Well, Finn it is. I created the game page, you may send in pretenders.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 06, 2022, 02:54:05 pm
Yeah, I put Valanis Winterized in the maps subforum before the workshop was added, but didn't want to be bothered w/keeping it up to date after the workshop got added. As far as I know, the "Finn" version is essentially the same as the "winterized" version that I made, which was the same as the original plus some permeable border stuff plus the winter map. If I had to guess, I'd say the "revision" part is making the mountain peak on the middle island not have mountain borders - that's the only change I see. It should be fine.

Re: what diplomacy is, the standard we normally abide by is "only binding WRT trades" - if you agree to trade gold/reagents/items, you're bound to follow through as promised. There's generally a "soft" rule not to overrun anyone during the first year. We don't play many games on this forum, so it's always been considered polite to let people have a chance to play before killing them off.

(Uggggggh, and this means I need to decide on a nation, doesn't it? Fine, I'll pick something before tonight.)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 06, 2022, 06:28:09 pm
Dumb question: Is Valanis suitable for an underwater nation or not? There's an obvious 'capital goes here' province, but the long, snaking river suggests otherwise. I just want confirmation because I'm eyeing some underwater nations and am wondering if it's worth the hassle.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 06, 2022, 07:24:54 pm
I feel like it'll be fine? Like, your forts won't be perfect as far as resource utilization goes, but you have a 20 province water system and some good potential for carving out land enclaves with no one else to pressure you to take the water. So you'll be able to make up for lost resources by the sheer size of a nation you'll be able to carve out for yourself. Power projection might be an issue eventually, but at least the water system is out in the middle of the map, so it shouldn't be too bad.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 06, 2022, 07:27:32 pm
Keeping dominion up might be a problem.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 06, 2022, 07:43:00 pm
UW is feasible. Theoretically you could fit two into it but it'd be messy. The first B12 Dom4 game had R'lyeh almost stomp everyone on this map. (Speaking of that game - you'll not have UW to yourself; kriv02 will be a major contender for it. MA Argartha does a good job of projecting power UW on this map.) It doesn't have any non-coast ocean, but it's A LOT better for a UW nation than many popular maps since it at least has a long, contiguous ocean. As Il Palazzo points out, dominion will always be something you need to pay attention to, but that's true for UW nations on any popular map.

Meh, I'll bite the bullet and take Man. Might as well force myself outside of my comfort zone.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 06, 2022, 07:48:35 pm
Power projection is always an issue for underwater nations, but the long, snakey ocean does make me worry about what will happen when thugs/waterbreathing items comes online.

Since it seems viable, I'll test out the two underwater nations I have my eyes on. I might decide that I hate them and pick something else, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: a1s on February 07, 2022, 10:49:17 am
I have not forgotten I signed up for this. Just trying out a few nations.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 07, 2022, 08:41:50 pm
I can't seem to get water expansion going in a way I'm satisfied with, so instead I'm going with MA C'tis. Part of the issue is that Valanis's long and winding river ocean limits expansion routes, so it's pretty easy to have an overly strong group of indies blocking progress until reinforcements arrive. Sticking with a land nation is probably going to be easier and more enjoyable for me.

And yes, I've already submitted my pretender.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 07, 2022, 10:49:55 pm
If USEC isn't doing something wet, I'll force myself even further out of my comfort zone and take Ys. I'm not keen on ceding the underworld AND the underwater to slimy cyclopean newts. You're welcome.  :P

I will stipulate that I'm more than a little worried about the #nostart provinces for UW on this map - and that's as much my fault as anyone, since the Finn revision appears to have added a handful more #nostarts than there were when I winterized the map. I don't think I even touched nostarts, TBH, but I should have. The majority of wet provinces are startable, and an awful lot of those have only 2 wet neighbors, so I may be effectively losing on turn 1. We Shall See.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 07, 2022, 11:19:00 pm
Thanks E. Albright, I was going to try out an UW nation with virtually no experience with it.
Maybe consider Pelagia? I was seriously considering them as The Sole UW nation.  They're not very competitive with Atlantis or R'lyeh, but without another UW nation they seem to balance the water/coast well enough.

I'd be OK with a reroll if our token UW nation is unplayable Turn 1.

Back to crafting THE ULTIMATE STRATEGY for Mictlan.  Maybe I would be better off with one of the UW nations...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 07, 2022, 11:35:06 pm
Nah. Pelegia may be less wildly not-me than Ys, but it also doesn't have swans, so there's really no choice between these two.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 08, 2022, 02:00:07 am
So, I emailed my pretender to pretenders[at]llamaserver[dot]net.  My subject was Bay12Round505.  I attached my file mid_mictlan_0.2h
Not logged by the game.  How did I fuck this up?
(I always fuck this up.  Usually because the instructions are wrong, or I misread the instructions.)
Subject was wrong.

Quote from: MCreeper on February 03, 2022, 01:54:08 am
Game: Bay12Round505 (https://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound505)
IS WRONG.  Game is "Bay12GamesRound505"
Instructions were correct.  My reading...not so much.  But this was also wrong, so not totally my fault!  Yay!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 08, 2022, 06:57:58 am
Ouch. Fixed.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 08, 2022, 08:35:34 am
Quote from: MCreeper on February 08, 2022, 06:57:58 am
Ouch. Fixed.
Thanks for your quick attention to this. Hopefully, it will save someone else some pain in the future.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 08, 2022, 09:48:09 am
Quote from: E. Albright on February 07, 2022, 10:49:55 pm
If USEC isn't doing something wet, I'll force myself even further out of my comfort zone and take Ys.

MA C'tis isn't humid and swampy enough?

And I am also fine with a restart if the RNG hates Ys. I know from my testing how mean it can be.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 08, 2022, 09:51:05 am
Quote from: E. Albright on February 07, 2022, 10:49:55 pm
If USEC isn't doing something wet, I'll force myself even further out of my comfort zone and take Ys.
>E.A. takes underwater nation
>out of comfort zone
>does not compute
:P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Karlito on February 08, 2022, 10:46:56 am
In my mind, Ys is more of a land nation that gets an UW capital.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: kriv02 on February 08, 2022, 11:25:34 am
Quote from: Karlito on February 08, 2022, 10:46:56 am
In my mind, Ys is more of a land nation that gets an UW capital.
And my ability to project power UW is very thankful for that.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 08, 2022, 12:01:23 pm
MA Agartha is fairly powerful on the Land as well...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on February 08, 2022, 01:07:22 pm
MA Argartha isn't as nasty as it was in Dom4, but it's definitely not weak wet OR dry.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: EuchreJack on February 08, 2022, 05:50:14 pm
...unlike Mictlan.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2022, 01:11:27 pm
Hemmed and hawed over my pretender for like a week but in the end just decided to go with one a bit different from what I've played before (probably terrible, but how wrong can you go with Na'ba anyway?) so I'm ready.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 09, 2022, 02:15:47 pm
Well, we've heard from a1s that they're still mulling over their choice. But what about RexMundi? Are they still in? Do they know this thread exists?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: MCreeper on February 09, 2022, 02:31:07 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 09, 2022, 02:15:47 pm
Well, we've heard from a1s that they're still mulling over their choice. But what about RexMundi? Are they still in? Do they know this thread exists?
Well, i PMed him some time ago (not that it would really help), but to no response. We will start once a1s is in, don't think there is any point in waiting for him further.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Recruiting
Post by: a1s on February 09, 2022, 03:34:15 pm
I have chosen Abysia. Let's start.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on February 09, 2022, 03:49:12 pm
Game started, and here i am, the only one with default pretender name. Pretender itself may also be most boring.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 09, 2022, 04:15:22 pm
So, I hear Ysians are up to no good. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2022, 04:31:46 pm
Saying Elves are up to no good is tautology.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 09, 2022, 04:44:37 pm
A truth is worth repeating. And what truth can be more truthful than warning against the conniving wiles of Ys-men. They are so... wet. And gaudy. And shifty. Nothing like a giant. A giant is dependable, solid. Wearing green tights. Vote to make Valanis gigantic again.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 09, 2022, 04:55:30 pm
LIES! I assure you, of all the nations who are up to no good, it is an objective geographical fact that we are up to less than anyone but the stygian newts.

I think I may have chosen the wrong bless of the two I was waffling between. Ah, well.

No one else is gonna do the breakdown? All right, here it is:


Thrones are Pantokrator, Sun, Shattered, Creation, Destiny, and Splendour. Two of those are pretty awful to claim, but the other four are hawtsome, in a purely liturgical sense. Only one is in the north (but waaaaay north, on top of a mountain), and two are underwater. Oh, and one of the three in the south is up on top of a mountain. This is gonna be ugly, geographically speaking.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 09, 2022, 05:01:56 pm
Of these, there's a few obvious truths. Whole lotta nature gods. A couple of us are really pretty uncreative in our spheres of influence - wait, I'm one of those... uh, I mean, a couple of us are truly devoted to what's most important in life, like hugz.

Not much divine disagreement compared to some conflicts - a bit of squabbling over who exactly embodies the true nature of bovinity seems like the most purely theological dispute we're seeing.

By pure deductive wit, I have concluded that Phlegra is without doubt led by a demilich.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 09, 2022, 05:17:43 pm
I appreciate how Dominions 5 lets us host climatic battles between Rouanez-Vamm Gloar, The Name of God, Cockheaded Trouser Snake and current mood: useless bisexual.

Also, the majority of test games I ran placed me in the same province, and when they didn't it was in a nearby one. So of course I get stunted across the entire map for the actual game.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 09, 2022, 06:55:47 pm
I hate you all.
Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, Turn Up!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2022, 08:17:53 pm
Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on February 09, 2022, 05:17:43 pm
I appreciate how Dominions 5 lets us host climatic battles between Rouanez-Vamm Gloar, The Name of God, Cockheaded Trouser Snake and current mood: useless bisexual.

Also, the majority of test games I ran placed me in the same province, and when they didn't it was in a nearby one. So of course I get stunted across the entire map for the actual game.

Yeah, unless you run the test games with all the correct nations the spawning will almost never work out right in the test game compared to the real game since attempts to spread out people tends to overwhelm starting bias. Even if you run with the right number of players if you use the wrong nations it might not work out since other peoples starting bias can overwhelm your own.

Quote from: E. Albright on February 09, 2022, 05:01:56 pm
Of these, there's a few obvious truths. Whole lotta nature gods. A couple of us are really pretty uncreative in our spheres of influence - wait, I'm one of those... uh, I mean, a couple of us are truly devoted to what's most important in life, like hugz.

I think it just makes sense that if you're going to be a star in the morning, you'll also be a star in the evening.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 09, 2022, 09:34:51 pm
I have submitted my CUNNING STRATEGY.  Beware your doom!

And now we are on Turn Three OF MY CUNNING PLAN
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2022, 06:46:57 am
Man, I didn't realize internalize the throne placements this game until this turn, but damn, that's pretty lopsided. This really is Ys game to loose, 2 thrones pretty much uncontested and they only need to kill 1-2 land nations in the bottom left to get the other 2 they need to win. That's a very quick and relatively easy path to victory right there. Whereas the southern people are going to need to at least manage to go under water vs Ys in order to win, and the northerners need to basically own the whole map before they win.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on February 10, 2022, 06:54:36 am
In hindsight i should have put some more thrones in when we got more players than i thought we would, but its too late now.  :(
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 10, 2022, 10:03:37 am
Let me be clear: I only have two thrones uncontested once I can kill what's guarding them, and until a blob of newt statues glub-glub-clubs me to death. Plus I need to project power strongly enough onto land to take and hold two thrones there, with my 1 whole H3 prophet until and unless I can research how to outsource sermon duties to random fish with magic necklaces.

A lot depends on exactly what abominations are guarding the various thrones...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 10:15:03 am
Yes, Yes, Universal Pact to Destroy Ys in Spring of Year 2 is a Go.  To be revisited if/when Ys shows itself to sufficiently weakened.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 10, 2022, 06:00:20 pm
Fuuuck. What's with those hordes of indies everywhere? Have they been set to higher strength than the default?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2022, 06:06:01 pm
My indies are normal fairly normal. Maybe you were just lucky/unlucky enough to start near a ton of rich provinces?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on February 10, 2022, 06:23:29 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 10, 2022, 06:00:20 pm
Fuuuck. What's with those hordes of indies everywhere? Have they been set to higher strength than the default?
I swear it ain't so! And they look normal to me too.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 10, 2022, 06:24:42 pm
Must be my rotten luck then.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: a1s on February 10, 2022, 06:25:08 pm
Definitely normal. The fall like chaff under the Abysian foot.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 06:26:36 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 10, 2022, 06:00:20 pm
Fuuuck. What's with those hordes of indies everywhere? Have they been set to higher strength than the default?
Psst. I was going to complain about it also, but I didn't want to give away my position.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 10, 2022, 06:41:32 pm
Right there with ya. In broad strokes the indies my scouts have seen seem normal, but the specific ones directly in front of my path of expansion seem to be a wee mite overwrought.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 10, 2022, 06:57:05 pm
Mine seem to be tougher than normal, but not in any exceptional way. The RNG must have been feeling a little mean when generating them.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 08:34:57 pm
Not last!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2022, 09:01:17 pm
Hmm, didn't realize until now that Banu Si'lat have to be like literally the lowest map move for any flying unit in the game. At 12 because of armor penalties they are really in a category all of their own when it comes to shit slow fliers.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 11, 2022, 04:03:31 am
Not exactly hard to guess where Abyssia spawns on this map...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 11, 2022, 07:14:13 pm
There's a few different potential wasteland starts, and since there's multiple players it's possible that their starting preference was overridden in order to place them more evenly. My own starting preference was not followed for instance.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 12, 2022, 03:19:25 pm
Oh, lord. Unrest. Unrest everywhere. God damn you, Phlegra.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: a1s on February 12, 2022, 03:23:35 pm
Why do mercenaries seem to dislike me?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 12, 2022, 03:26:29 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 12, 2022, 03:19:25 pm
Oh, lord. Unrest. Unrest everywhere. God damn you, Phlegra.
So you're damning... yourself.

Stop being a wuss. You're good at handling horrible dominion effects.  I recall your success with LA R'lyeh.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 12, 2022, 03:33:18 pm
Quote from: a1s on February 12, 2022, 03:23:35 pm
Why do mercenaries seem to dislike me?

They don't hate you. Na'Ba is just throwing around fat stacks of gold at them.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 12, 2022, 04:16:23 pm
Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on February 12, 2022, 03:33:18 pm
Quote from: a1s on February 12, 2022, 03:23:35 pm
Why do mercenaries seem to dislike me?

They don't hate you. Na'Ba is just throwing around fat stacks of gold at them.
Yeah,  I haven't been able to hire mercenaries either. Not that I need them...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 12, 2022, 04:18:33 pm
Judging from the type of mercs they hire, Na'Ba is just clearing the underwater indies for easier takeover by the Ysian menace.

Quote from: EuchreJack on February 12, 2022, 03:26:29 pm
Stop being a wuss.
I can't. I'm a glass half filled with shit kind of guy.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2022, 04:22:43 pm
I paid a lot for the shipwreckers because they are worth it, only merc group I've seen that can accidently take a throne lol. For the others I only paid barely above minimal to use them as lance catchers. So that's on ya'll if you didn't get them.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 12, 2022, 05:35:56 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 12, 2022, 04:22:43 pm
I paid a lot for the shipwreckers because they are worth it, only merc group I've seen that can accidently take a throne lol. For the others I only paid barely above minimal to use them as lance catchers. So that's on ya'll if you didn't get them.

I feel like we have different definitions of the phrase "barely above minimal". I totally added a couple coins to my bids.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2022, 07:51:49 pm
I think I paid nearly 600 for the shipwreckers (and frankly, was a bit surprised to win with that) maybe 200-250 for the black fists and 150-170 for the fishermen.

Edit: Saying this out loud because I'm suiciding all my mercs this turn, so feel free to outbid me on the contract renewal.  :)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 12, 2022, 10:43:17 pm
No love for Mighty Markatas, though?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2022, 10:55:18 pm
Markatas (and long dead) too trash even to catch lances. :(
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 12, 2022, 10:59:49 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 12, 2022, 10:43:17 pm
No love for Mighty Markatas, though?

What's the inverse of being able to take a throne solo? I'm pretty certain that the Mighty Markatas come close.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2022, 11:32:21 pm
Attempt to suicide shipwreckers. 3 of them die as they clear a province of 50 decent quality indies. What absolute gods.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 13, 2022, 07:20:07 am
It might be advantageous for Na'Ba to at least give some sort of declaration as to where it might be, unless getting accidentally attacked sounds like !!FUN!!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 13, 2022, 08:14:54 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on February 13, 2022, 07:20:07 am
It might be advantageous for Na'Ba to at least give some sort of declaration as to where it might be, unless getting accidentally attacked sounds like !!FUN!!
If you're this starved for reconnaissance, maybe consider hiring Mighty Markatas? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 13, 2022, 08:32:29 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on February 13, 2022, 07:20:07 am
It might be advantageous for Na'Ba to at least give some sort of declaration as to where it might be, unless getting accidentally attacked sounds like !!FUN!!

Every single gray flag province remaining on the map as of this turn is me. I have recruited indies to stand in those provinces, which is why you get scout reports of there being indie troops there.

For real though, Na'bas province ownership hiding doesn't really work in a way that should cause people too attack me. If you have a scout in a province, you'll know I own it, and if you have borders with one of my provinces you can see that I own the province. It basically just tricks you if you have a scout in a province you don't own adjacent to one of mine, but no scout in my province specifically, then you don't see that I own it. And you probably shouldn't be expanding via skipping provinces to hit unscouted provinces. Some flying pretenders probably can expand like that but I think it's almost always a terrible idea anyway.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 14, 2022, 04:23:34 am
Happy Dominions Christmas!  We're almost done with our first in-game year.
Now, if you all would like to tell me where your capitals are located, Dominions Santa would be sure to give you great gifts...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 14, 2022, 06:30:57 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on February 14, 2022, 04:23:34 am
Happy Dominions Christmas!  We're almost done with our first in-game year.
Now, if you all would like to tell me where your capitals are located, Dominions Santa would be sure to give you great gifts...

My capital is 152, please direct all your destruction attempts there.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 14, 2022, 08:03:21 am
I can confirm, my capital is also at 152. And maybe 73, too. Not sure yet.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 14, 2022, 09:02:00 am
Without opening the game, I'm just going to assume Province 152 is actually my capital.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 14, 2022, 10:12:54 pm
Today is a Sacred Day in Mictlan, where we rip the bleeding heart out of a slave and give it to our loved ones.
Sadly, we are too Lawful Good to do that now.
So a symbolic Bleeding Heart to you all, from Enlightened Mictlan.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 10:12:24 am
So if you're interested in this game, it's actually on sale.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/722060/Dominions_5__Warriors_of_the_Faith/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/722060/Dominions_5__Warriors_of_the_Faith/)

Wish it was on sale when I had to purchase it to play multiplayer, but whatever.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 15, 2022, 10:16:26 am
I have a sneaking suspicion all of us here already have it.

edit: I, for one, am happy there are no thrones to be found in my territory. Being on the receiving end of those glamorous 28-defence fishdicks with 39-speed lance charge bonus would be a pain.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 15, 2022, 01:28:18 pm
Huh. Can't say I remember seeing Eternal Knights as random indy province defenders before...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: a1s on February 15, 2022, 01:32:27 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on February 15, 2022, 01:28:18 pm
Huh. Can't say I remember seeing Eternal Knights as random indy province defenders before...
I hereby claim the province for Abyssia. We will reconquer it and lay our boys to rest as befits heroes- in a massive f-ing fire.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 03:18:33 pm
Yeah, honestly, I saw that province with my expansion and just turned the fuck around lol. Only 5 eternal knights is, I suppose, not so bad. But I didn't wanta fuck around with a 28 ap damage attack. Not to mention the knights, ooph. Especially because I sorta doubt that the eternal knights will be able to be recruited after you conquer the province. If you can though gg they are going to be great with your bless.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 07:48:02 pm
I'll need my death site searcher back once you're done with him Ys. Don't fuck him up too much.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 07:49:04 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 07:48:02 pm
I'll need my death site searcher back once you're done with him Ys. Don't fuck him up too much.
I'd suggest Ys send him searching for death sites in the two underwater throne provinces.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 07:59:09 pm
Also can't help but notice that I had the shipwreckers for 9 turns, and they conquered a province per turn when I had them in my employ, as soon as Ys hires them away, they basically instantly die. What a terrible boss.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 08:11:38 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 07:59:09 pm
Also can't help but notice that I had the shipwreckers for 9 turns, and they conquered a province per turn when I had them in my employ, as soon as Ys hires them away, they basically instantly die. What a terrible boss.

The previous prophets of Ys would agree with you, but they're dead.
Worst Boss Ever.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 08:15:45 pm
I just realized I submitted the wrong pretender god lol.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 08:19:16 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 08:15:45 pm
I just realized I submitted the wrong pretender god lol.

Eh, you're not the only one.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 11:06:49 pm
Ah fuck.
I sent in my file, I got an email that LlamaServer received my file.
But guess what?
The Game Status says NOPE

So LlamaServer must have shit the bed again.  It wouldn't be a round of Dominions MP without LlamaServer fucking breaking...

Fair warning: If LlamaServer fucks me out of my turn, I will likely go AI.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 15, 2022, 11:19:25 pm
I'm seeing your status as received, FWIW...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 11:20:28 pm
I am now as well, but not when he posted that, so I assume it was just Lamaserver being slow.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 15, 2022, 11:23:15 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on February 15, 2022, 11:19:25 pm
I'm seeing your status as received, FWIW...

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 15, 2022, 11:20:28 pm
I am now as well, but not when he posted that, so I assume it was just Lamaserver being slow.

I made changes to my turn and sent in the new one.
If I recall, that means I can look forward to my next turn being corrupted?  >:(
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Karlito on February 16, 2022, 11:12:29 am
There's a couple direct connect servers people have set up for use- they're not just for blitz.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 16, 2022, 12:39:28 pm
My turn seems to be working properly.  I successfully received a normal turn, sent my turn in, and the system successfully logged it.
Yay!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 20, 2022, 08:07:27 pm
It might be nobler to endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I have Nabean armies sitting on my two remaining forts and can do nothing to dislodge them. I'm going AI and hope that everyone enjoys the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 20, 2022, 08:40:51 pm
GGWP and all that USEC_OFFICER. Sorry ya had to be the first one out, but that's how it goes sometimes. Sometimes you flaming arrow, sometimes you get flaming arrowed.

Spoiler: Jesus Ind TLDR (click to show/hide)

Although the Bishop is nice, need that to preach back all my neighbors terrible hellscales dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 21, 2022, 05:03:34 pm
^one would think such events would be disabled in multiplayer.


Thanks for playing USEC_OFFICER.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: a1s on February 21, 2022, 07:31:06 pm
Did Ind do something to make that happen? Either way, I liked the event, even if I didn't quite understand it.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 21, 2022, 08:22:33 pm
Will the Bishop spread our dominion, or Ind's dominion?

EDIT: Also new turn incoming, I submitted my turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 21, 2022, 09:26:18 pm
It preaches your own dominion I'm pretty sure.

Quote from: a1s on February 21, 2022, 07:31:06 pm
Did Ind do something to make that happen? Either way, I liked the event, even if I didn't quite understand it.

No, it's just a funny little event that happens if Ind is in the game. It's a (I'm fairly sure) reference to the Letter of Prester John (like all of Ind is a reference to the fictional Prester John and his nation)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 22, 2022, 02:45:53 am
I'm not sure if that event is disabled if story events are off or not. I wanna say it's not lumped in with them, though. One thing with Dom5 is that KO increasingly made events feature core mechanics for nations, and "your rivals can get a free T3 priest" is part of the balance for the nation along with them getting attacks by nuisance birds in their psuedohoburg forts every spring, etc.

It's just another priest, though. There's no mechanics in the engine to spread any dominion but your own via units - as close as you can get is heresy effects and even those just reduce your dominion rather than promoting another one.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 22, 2022, 07:36:02 am
The bishop general isn't even a t3 priest, it's a t2. So yeah it's certainly not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 24, 2022, 03:03:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/IZ9wsWV.png)

Honestly, this message feels better then the victory one.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: a1s on February 24, 2022, 05:14:46 pm
Ind Bishop general has been executed as a spy. 8)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 24, 2022, 05:18:00 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 24, 2022, 03:03:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/IZ9wsWV.png)

Honestly, this message feels better then the victory one.
Goddamnit. 'round here it's a bloody wasteland. And Ind found a citadel of whatever that is. Crystal mages? Grey seers? Conveniently right on my border. All I ever get is wells of pestilence.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 24, 2022, 06:26:12 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 24, 2022, 05:18:00 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on February 24, 2022, 03:03:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/IZ9wsWV.png)

Honestly, this message feels better then the victory one.
Goddamnit. 'round here it's a bloody wasteland. And Ind found a citadel of whatever that is. Crystal mages? Grey seers? Conveniently right on my border. All I ever get is wells of pestilence.
I think that is just your dominion...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 01:10:40 am
Uh, maybe we should put the game on hiatus or something.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 25, 2022, 02:02:50 am
Why? What's up?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 02:13:38 am
Our Admin is in Ukraine, which is currently being invaded by Russia. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179592.msg8354835#msg8354835)

I don't want to speculate or put words in anyone's mouth. Hopefully MCreeper will be able to update us. 
But the internet might be down, and they may have more important things to do.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 25, 2022, 02:18:51 am
Ah. Right. Yes. Well, that could certainly be a problem. They managed to submit their current turn, so all seems well? Hopefully? But yes if they need to put the game on pause that'd be okay. I'm not sure if we as players can pause the game, but if we can certainly we'll do so if MCreeper is unable to play.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on February 25, 2022, 02:55:27 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 02:13:38 am
Our Admin is in Ukraine, which is currently being invaded by Russia. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179592.msg8354835#msg8354835)

I don't want to speculate or put words in anyone's mouth. Hopefully MCreeper will be able to update us. 
But the internet might be down, and they may have more important things to do.
Internet not down yet, not really have anything better to do yet, which may change by the evening for all i know. I'll switch turn interval to few days and give somebody else admin password so that game wouldn't hang up in the air in case something happens. To you, actually.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 03:13:36 am
Quote from: MCreeper on February 25, 2022, 02:55:27 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 02:13:38 am
Our Admin is in Ukraine, which is currently being invaded by Russia. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179592.msg8354835#msg8354835)

I don't want to speculate or put words in anyone's mouth. Hopefully MCreeper will be able to update us. 
But the internet might be down, and they may have more important things to do.
Internet not down yet, not really have anything better to do yet. But i'll switch turn interval to few days and give somebody else admin password to be safe there. To you, actually.

Got it.  I'll try to keep my own turns timely.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on February 25, 2022, 11:51:05 am
And now i can't properly do a turn because server sends me this message ::) :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Here goes email to llamabeast.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 04:01:26 pm
We might all be boned.  I loaded up Steam and saw "Update Queued".
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 25, 2022, 04:47:46 pm
Ah, shit. I don't remember what the procedure for updates was. Do we upload 2h files again, after update? Or just leave it be and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2022, 05:03:35 pm
I autoupdated and submitted my 2h file.
Llama server accepted my turn.

I believe the procedure is to update and submit.  Dunno if a submitted turn pre-update needs to be resubmitted.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 25, 2022, 08:02:35 pm
I figure I might as well say, to people that aren't aware (probably just Phlegra and Ind, possibly no one) that Ys has attacked me. If you recall, a while ago I pointed out that Ys only needed to beat a single nation in a war to win this game, and as I'm sure you all know, it's me, I'm that nation. Not loosing yet, but Ys does have a pretty crushing advantage on this map so we'll see. Frankly we land nations are going to need to work together to stop them from trivially winning. So, if you're near Ys on land, consider trying to push em back into the sea. And possibly raiding their underwater provinces if you can as well. Water nations get their absurdity from taking advantage of land nations not being able to effectively fight back and making it not worth it for the land nations to even make the attempt, but if we all pitch in we can at least force them back to the water where they belong.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 25, 2022, 08:48:35 pm
You're the strongest of us all, what with having just conquered C'tis. Surely, you're not going to fold like a flan in cupboard.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 25, 2022, 09:10:56 pm
I would hope I don't fold, indeed, this turn was largely one of victories for me (which is partially why I waited a turn to post, because frankly if I just totally failed in my attempts and was going to just fold I'd say fuck it, do my best, but hope they kill me quick and not bother trying to rally the land vs Ys.) But you're wrong in saying that I'm the strongest. Not to go over the previous conversation regarding map connectivity too closely, but I started shoved in a corner without any good expansion avenues. Whereas Ys got a higher then average number of provinces guaranteed to him alone along with whatever he took from the land. Even after I conquered C'tis Ys is at least as large as me with just the provinces I know he has. And fighting water nations tend to be fairly untenable for a single land nation. The raiding war is seriously tipped in his favor when I need items and have reduced stats underwater and he has glamored elves able to strike at any coastal province without warning. If I win a big fight vs him there's little I can do to push the advantage or cut off retreat paths and he'll freely get to reorganize. If he wins a big fight he can freely start to overrun my lands. It's simply the nature of water nations that fighting them is extremely difficult, it's made even worse on a map like Valanis and with a nation like Ys (the strongest water nation on land in the early to mid game).

Ys is, I think, unquestionably the nation with the strongest position in the game right now, they hold all the advantages from the map and their nature as a water nation makes them a threat that a single land nation practically can't fight alone. And for everyone letting them compound their natural advantages and pick off land nations 1 by 1 simply is a really bad idea :P.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 09:20:38 pm
They lost two functionally-undefended UW provinces before killing my thug who took them in a third with a UW thug of their own, and momentarily lost one land province that's between 2 of their... 7, I think? forts that I have roughly 0 chance of holding for even 1 turn. For all their talk of "not losing yet", they're doing juuuuust fine.

But yeah, it's really funny seeing the nation with double the provinces (and capital provinces!) of most every other nation talking about how anyone else has a "crushing advantage". Especially given how advanced their research is, with heavy magic scales and recruit-anywhere Hermit Sahir (13rp per turn before the +3 from scales!). I, OTOH, lost 4 expansion parties to unpleasant indies and am likely only still alive b/c I'm UW. I get that it's to Na'Ba's advantage to sow discord and weaken their targets while consolidating their conquests, but this seems like a hard sales pitch to sell. At the risk of telling Na'Ba what their scouts apparently haven't told them, even with me temporarily holding the provinces mentioned above, Na'Ba has ~25-30% more provinces than me as of this writing, and is seriously underselling exactly how strong they are while hoping they can get us to fight amongst ourselves while they absorb their neighbors. Speaking of "picking land nations off 1 by 1"...

Saying I need to beat one land nation to win - even setting aside how much !FUN! I'm going to have projecting power away from coasts - kinda says a lot about how Na'Ba thinks Abysia is going to fold like a burnt flan such that the SW throne (19) is already theirs. Or how easily anyone is going to capture the Spring Hawk nightmare throne in the Black Forest (63).

BTW, Na'Ba itself is province 46, for anyone who didn't work that out yet.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 25, 2022, 10:01:23 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 09:20:38 pm
They lost two functionally-undefended UW provinces before killing my thug who took them in a third with a UW thug of their own, and momentarily lost one land province that's between 2 of their... 7, I think? forts that I have roughly 0 chance of holding for even 1 turn. For all their talk of "not losing yet", they're doing juuuuust fine.

Yes..? I'm not loosing yet, like I said. I hope to not ever be losing. That doesn't change anything I said, I'm just putting the information about your intentions out there since water nations need to be everyones problem, because if they aren't early, then they will be later on. And not losing is really far from "Winning"

Quote from: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 09:20:38 pm
Na'Ba has ~25-30% more provinces than me as of this writing

Your scouting must not be that great, I own 25 provinces. You own 23 counting the stuff I see on land and the non throne underwater. I'm maybe 10% bigger then you. Assuming you don't own more land stuff that I can't see.

Quote from: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 09:20:38 pm
Saying I need to beat one land nation to win - even setting aside how much !FUN! I'm going to have projecting power away from coasts - kinda says a lot about how Na'Ba thinks Abysia is going to fold like a burnt flan such that the SW throne (19) is already theirs. Or how easily anyone is going to capture the Spring Hawk nightmare throne in the Black Forest (63).

3 things here. Power projection is the classic issue with underwater nations that I suppose "balances" them, but this is not so much an issue for you here. With 2 thrones underwater and one so close to the coast, you won't actually start to suffer from these issues until you've already almost won the game and have started to conquer the fourth throne, which of course by then it will be too late to really matter. If you had to dive into Agartha to win, or hold all the land thrones or something, then yes, it'd be an issue for you. But, that's not how the thrones spawned. So you don't.

Secondly I don't think Abysia is just going to fold, however you don't need to kill them to win the game, you just need to scrape off a single province from them, assuming in this scenario you've already consumed me. You need to win a war vs me to win, and a single battle vs Abysia probably yes, but that sorta rolls off the tongue less well. Also considering how you convinced Abysia somehow to be your meat shield in this war with me and send all his stuff to go die before you commit anything major to the war I would assume if everything goes to plan for you they'd be pretty well weakened for your throne rush.

Thirdly on a lighter note :P 63 is the nightmare throne? It doesn't look that bad to me. Actually, I think either you or me could already take it fairly easily. I was planning on making an attempt before this war broke out. Out of the land thrones (I can't see the water thrones so idk, but I doubt there's much you can't beat with enough water elementals) 19 63 and 160 all seem very plausible to me for people to start taking by now, especially Ys and Na'ba and Phlegra. 17 (a throne you don't need but most land nations probably do) is the real nightmare throne imo. Last time I played a game with those defenders in no one took it until turn 60.

As a last note. Yeah. Hermit Sahirs are great. My research isn't that great, since most of my stuff is slow to recruit (4 turns to recruit a Hermit) but it's certainly decent. Everyone nation has their strengths (well, some have more, like Ys and Na'ba :P). I'd trade the hermits in exchange for 34 defense air shielded elf cav thugs.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 10:31:57 pm
You're really counting on your obscuring dominion making it hard for other people to count how many provinces you have. Sly trick, but it's not that convincing. Especially since I can't hold anything I took from you over the last two turns. I'm a nuisance keeping you from absorbing Abysia in peace, not a serious threat to your dominance. One by one we line up, fall, and you snowball. That's how a nice fair blitz is supposed to work, right?

My issue will be power projection onto land, yes. As I - unlike other elves - can't do stealth, that's a rather big issue - I can't raid effectively anywhere but the coasts. And all I have to mass to break down forts is either 1) meh slow UW merrow, 2) meh slow coastal Kerrs, or 3) meh slow inland indies... I'm going to be thwarted quite readily by mere pallisades.

I'll also add that the same thing that makes you actually have to work a bit to eat us is the same reason your portrayal of me as a looming threat is so silly. If this map were twice as interconnected as it is, your analysis would make a bit more sense - but the idea that the nation in the middle of the map, bordering every nation but one, is in a position where they can - trivially and before anyone can react - grab 4 thrones at a moment's notice (with my 1 H3, until my drain-2 researchers eventually learn how to summon Bishop Fish) is a bit rich. Lower-connectivity maps make strategic planning more important - everything isn't next to everything else, even for a nation in the center of the map like me.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 26, 2022, 12:14:47 am
Ahem, The Noble and Ethical Queen of Mictlan might accept...notes of diplomatic importance properly weighed down with gems so that the notes don't "accidentally" blow away.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2022, 12:17:18 am
I'm mildly offended by the implication that I would lie about my province count, what a bizarre idea.

(https://i.imgur.com/dYdGFlU.png)

Who's the sly trickster here? What a weird thought that I'd lie about something like that. Unless this was all some gambit to get me to show my provinces, but, frankly, that'd be weird as well, who cares? I already told you how many provinces I have. As we're on the subject how exactly do you think I intend to recover or even hold water provinces vs an underwater nation anyway? Killing your thug like that was funny, but it's a trick that works like... Once vs Ys. I presume you've already countered it. I MIGHT be able to take back the land provinces you've taken. Certainly though I doubt you'll just do nothing and not attempt to keep anything.

This is a bit of an aside, but I don't fully understand your bringing up of blitzes. Do you think I'm a blitz player that... Thinks games should somehow... I'm not even sure, be a series of other players to knock down? And that that's how blitzes work? I've played a few, but I mostly play games like this. It's true that sometimes you get a game where you just roll over 1 player after another until you win, but blitz or play by post game I find those aren't really the norm. And they certainly are not fair when that happens, It normally means you're playing with a group of players too far below your skill level... So it doesn't happen to me much! :P

Yes, I can't eat Abysia with you around, not that that was my intention. They attacked me after all, I'm defending myself, and I've offered to let them peace out of the war now that I've shown I won't let them just eat me (Well, I offered it before too, but they obviously didn't take it then). Ultimately I can't really eat anyone with you around waiting to pounce on me. Even C'tis was a bit of a cheeky move that I only pulled because I thought I could do it swiftly and with minimal losses. And because I was desperate to get more land and money to help hold you off. You're underwater and always going to harass me. My realistic "victory" against you in this war is a horrible stalemate, thus the nature of fighting someone underwater, and that's honestly great for everyone else in the game. And really there's not much they can do to actually make it possible for me to actually win, so any help they give me is almost certainly going to go towards pushing the gamestate into that desirable stalemate which gives everyone else time to start eating each other and ready themselves to eventually win.

As for you taking the thrones, well, yeah, it won't be "instant" But your god should be awakening relatively soon. Dunno what it is (For the record, my guess is a high queen with something incarnate) and that can start to claim the underwater thrones as you clear them as your prophet marches with an army towards the thrones you need on land. Lets think about a hypothetical situation say, 10 turns from now. You managed to beat me, you took the underwater thrones and forted them. Your god wakes up. Now it's time for you to start claiming them and then march on the final throne. Is now the time for everyone else to work together? To somehow scramble for the ability to go underwater and siege down your thrones? It's not going to be the fastest throne rush in the world, but stopping you is going to be almost entirely on Abysia shoulders. If people want to contribute to stopping you from winning the game, they have to do it now, weakening you, draining resources and drawing attention so that Me and Abysia can fight back more effectively now and in the future. If they do it later, it will be too late. You won't care if you lose your whole island if you can win a fight off of Abysia. If you weren't a water nation it'd be much more reasonable to say people can wait until you're actually within spitting distance of winning the game. If you needed land thrones that were distant from each other it'd be more reasonable to say that people can wait. But... You're a water nation. 2 of 4 thrones are underwater and 2 of 4 are near each other on land. Attacking you is going to be slow and hard. Stopping you from winning is going to be slow and hard if it becomes a problem in the future.

As for having to footslog a bunch of infantry across several enemy provinces to siege a fort... So does everyone else. Except bird nations. Being far away from the water doesn't change that for you. What it means is that AFTER you take the far away from the water province and stabilize your control over it it won't start producing power for you like it would for someone else, that's the difference in an underwater nations ability to project power. But... Once you've stabilized your control over the forts with and near the fourth throne, you don't have to worry that those forts don't start to contribute to your power because the game will be over.

Also since we're just launching back into this conversation, no, lower connectivity maps don't make strategic planning more important, they make it different. In a high connectivity map you still need to be planning your moves equally far in advance, at least if you want to win. Yes, sudden radical changes can often be implemented more swiftly, but also the number of concerns you have are higher. I don't need to plan about what to do if Phlegra or Ind attacked me on this map, like I might have to do if this was a wrap around map. My pool of enemies, allies, and potential paths that this game can go down is lower. Diplomacy is simpler. The game state is for the most part simpler. No one would attack MA C'tis in a game where they actually had strategic options :P

Quote from: EuchreJack on February 26, 2022, 12:14:47 am
Ahem, The Noble and Ethical Queen of Mictlan might accept...notes of diplomatic importance properly weighed down with gems so that the notes don't "accidentally" blow away.

Is this asking for a bribe?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 26, 2022, 12:29:23 am
Mmmhyeah. Your bickering is like honey unto Phlegran ears.
Well, I can't do shit from where I'm standing either way (or can I?  :o). But if I'm well bribed I can offer moral support to the more generous briber and call their war at least as just as any of my own.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2022, 12:40:06 am
I know you have borders with Ys hold on the mainland and a path to their island at least Phlegra :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 12:56:14 am
The idea that you're in a worse situation for keeping troops alive to crack open thrones underwater than I am on marching trash indy troops to try to crack ones on land is silly. The idea that I can effortlessly project force across the entire width of the map is likewise a joke. My provinces are strung from one side of the pond to the other, and even my fastest troops can't move half as quickly from my scattered forts to your dense ones. I border everyone but Argatha, yet you're suggesting "stopping [me] is going to be almost entirely on Abysia['s] shoulders".  Re: densely connected maps and strategic planning: you're mistaking strategy for tactics. The ability to rapidly redeploy means you don't have to plan as far ahead, and that you're more likely to have a single theater of war rather than multiple ones. It absolutely makes strategy simpler, as well as more forgiving.

I do like how you only ganked and steamrolled C'tis about a year ago b/c you were "desperate to get more land and money to help hold [me] off" when we've been in conflict for all of 3 turns now, and still had indy provinces b/tw us when you invaded them. That is cute.

As to your general arguments, a parable, by way of an old joke:

An American engineer and a French engineer stand together in a workshop. In the center of the room, a large complex engine roars as it runs smoothly.

The American turns and say, "It works! They said we couldn't do it! They said it was impossible, and couldn't be done! Yet here we are!"

The French engineer glances sideways at the American, gives an exasperated sigh, and rolls their eyes. Taking up the tone of a long-suffering parent addressing a particularly dense and recalcitrant child, they wearily begin: "Oui, mais en théorie..."
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2022, 01:44:27 am
Quote from: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 12:56:14 am
The idea that you're in a worse situation for keeping troops alive to crack open thrones underwater than I am on marching trash indy troops to try to crack ones on land is silly. The idea that I can effortlessly project force across the entire width of the map is likewise a joke.

This isn't what I said, and doesn't even make sense. Merrow are amphibious, why would you bring indies instead of them or, if you can source them for the job, Kernou? I didn't say that it'd be effortless, simply not significantly more difficult for you then for anyone else.

Quote from: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 12:56:14 am
I border everyone but Argatha, yet you're suggesting "stopping [me] is going to be almost entirely on Abysia['s] shoulders". 

Just to be clear, you do understand that non amphibious troops both need magical items to go underwater and suffer from a fairly significant stat penalty? And that many non water spells can't be cast underwater and that water mages are much much stronger underwater as well? And that every land mage you send underwater needs a item to allow them to breath? This leads to a situation where underwater the water nation will have troops with much better stats and much more powerful and likely more numerous mages as the land nations troops are debuffed and their mages rendered much less useful and difficult to use.
This makes it extremely difficult for land nations to actually kill water nations, especially in the more mid game area of the game. This is why land nations that would want to stop you from ending the game via taking your thrones from you would be at a significant disadvantage and find it hard to do so. That's why the easiest and most likely way to stop you if I die would be for Abysia to be the one to stop you from taking the thrones.

Quote from: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 12:56:14 am
I do like how you only ganked and steamrolled C'tis about a year ago b/c you were "desperate to get more land and money to help hold [me] off" when we've been in conflict for all of 3 turns now, and still had indy provinces b/tw us when you invaded them. That is cute.

It's not hard to predict that you would be aggressive towards me given your most straightforward path to victory involves killing me. Like. Frankly, it's obvious, I'm a primarily coastal nation, I have 1 throne in my borders, and a second throne directly on my borders. This is something literally anyone could have predicted turn one. I posted it in the thread at the start of the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 03:43:21 am
You can make up whatever pretty abstract stories based on just-so theorycraft you like. I'm pretty sure we all have enough intel (and ability to measure distances) to know that the story you're telling is based on a game other than the one we're playing - possibly one on a map other than the one we're on. I still can't get past your pat 10-turn narrative of a strung-out UW nation overrunning a larger, more advanced, more-compact, better-forted nation. I could suppose your intel is as bad as your description of the strategic situation suggests it is, but the more likely explanation remains that your shortest path to victory is getting one or more nations to attack me so I can't support Abysia, letting you eat them while consolidating your conquest of C'tis, and you becoming too strong for anyone to stop. Oh, and if you can get one or more eastern nations to cripple me, you can prevent the UW thrones from ever being forted (which would make you actually have to fight for them rather than being able to rush them and score a midgame win). This isn't about making sure I don't win, it's about making sure you can win quickly.

The most telling part of your assertions is that they only make sense if we assume that I conquer you, but you don't actually go anywhere and I don't take your territory. There have been a couple of holes in your logic that showed this flaw, but let me be really blunt about the elephant-sized salamander in the room: if I were to beat you - or even if I only took the western river from you, which frankly looks absurdly unlikely given how many forts you have on it, and thugs to raid from them - I'm exposed to another UW power, and frankly it's one that while less mobile than me is a lot stronger in knock-down fights and sieges.

You're the current king of the hill, and unless people band together now to keep you from getting any stronger, you're going to stay that way until the game ends in your victory.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 26, 2022, 09:18:41 am
Oi, you cheeky bastard. Haven't you been forting one of the thrones for, like, a turn or two now?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Karlito on February 26, 2022, 11:38:04 am
This is good stuff y'all. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 06:00:20 pm
IP, I've held one for the past two turns. You know, the one right next to your fort crammed with a blob of Gigantes and a Tyrant or two.

As you well know, the other wet throne has two indy provinces between me and it. And IIRC, it's also going to be a sight harder to take than this one, which was... Turtle Tritons and 4 utterly ineffectual Hydromancers?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 26, 2022, 06:54:23 pm
Come now. Kulullus are the easiest garrison, hands(fins?) down.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 26, 2022, 08:04:36 pm
Oh, god, you're right, that's weaker than I remembered. I've not had eyes on that throne since turn 13, and I didn't go back to check what it was b/c of how distant and impossible to conquer it seemed then (there were unreasonably hard-to-kill ichtyids - who killed my 1st prophet, her sacred escort, and initial starting army - and a rather meaty shark tribe province between me and the east river at that point). The two indy provinces remaining  b/tw me and the throne will probably be harder to kill than the throne itself even if my scouts were right about how vast a school of merkidus there is guarding the throne.

Still, given that my grousing was about how unforted thrones would encourage an early-to-midgame throne-rushing rather than proper conquest, it's not exactly contradictory for me to be fearmongering about rushes while also trying to fort the throne I'm holding...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2022, 09:56:30 am
Judging by the underwhelming bribes I've received so far, nobody thinks I can do anything anyway.

You know, I've been thinking. We've all been pissing into that river since time immemorial. One way or another it all flows downstream, even trickling down to Agartha. There's gigante piss, human piss, used-to-be lizard piss, abysian piss, jinn piss, even some pale one piss (who also drink it - a circle of life if I've ever seen one). And who's been swimming in that toxic sludge all this time?
Ysians are sort of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, is my point.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 27, 2022, 01:17:07 pm
Following scandalous allegations that merrow are not in fact mammals like you and me, this investigative trobairitz decided to go pay a visit to the city of Ys to find out the truth for herself. Over a hearty feast of slightly-soggy fouggase topped with warm timanoix, its boisterous and youthful inhabitants put my mind at ease. I am happy to say that I can report these wild stories are entirely without basis. The armies of Ys go to battle in stout bronze plate armor rather than painting their shells bronze - because they do not have shells, naturally! No, they're just as humanish as you or me, and any ballads to the contrary can be dismissed as scurrilous propaganda disseminated by the Tights Clan to sow mistrust of the fun-loving merrow living beneath the piers, bridges, and cliffs where we mammals dwell. Stay tuned for more updates should this non-story develop further, which it obviously won't since there's nothing to see here. This has been Princess Ebrel ar Niall transcribing.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2022, 01:23:06 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on February 27, 2022, 01:17:07 pm
This has been Donatello transcribing.
FTFY ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on February 27, 2022, 06:43:18 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2022, 01:23:06 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on February 27, 2022, 01:17:07 pm
This has been Donatello transcribing.
FTFY ;)
April O'Neil Reporting
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2022, 10:04:14 pm
Aww, shit. Missed that completely. Well done E.A.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on February 28, 2022, 04:43:32 am
Hmm. So we have our first Deathmatch...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 28, 2022, 06:05:47 am
Everyone's got their enchanted salts ready, I presume?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2022, 07:50:19 am
Enchanted salt are a bit too hard of a counter to Malikah for me to be wasting them on an area :P. Malikah are very good at quite a few things, but thug vs thug battles is not one of those :P. Specially in a game with Ys and Phlegra in it who can both easily send better thugs even without the magic salt.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 02, 2022, 05:27:28 pm
Well, that was underwhelming. In more ways than one.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 02, 2022, 06:12:49 pm
Killing Tyrants is hard and the arena in vanilla gives crap rewards anyway. Enjoy your cursed sword lol.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 03, 2022, 02:50:14 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 02, 2022, 06:12:49 pm
Killing Tyrants is hard and the arena in vanilla gives crap rewards anyway. Enjoy your cursed sword lol.
+1 to not bothering with the arena
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 05, 2022, 03:23:42 pm
Man, Guiseppe IV really comes in good. I'm more used to his great grandfather (I think later Guiseppes get less common as you go) but 100 men and 3 magic items is pretty cool for a mercenary. Too bad mercs don't survive retreating.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 05, 2022, 04:48:16 pm
Does that make them even better for the neighbor of their employer?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on March 05, 2022, 05:47:36 pm
Yep. Free fertilizer!

(Technically, I know at least one way to make mercs survive retreating, but it's not useful b/c they'll immediately desert upon reaching safety since they'll be in the garrison instead of under the command of a friendly leader.)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on March 08, 2022, 06:09:10 am
Unfortunately, i'm quitting this (right before one more final battle with Agartha). My laptop's charger died and i won't get a new one anytime soon.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 08, 2022, 06:36:22 am
It's more than understandable. Good luck out there, MCreeper.


We'll probably want to start looking for a replacement, then? Or is Ind's situation sufficiently bad to warrant AI-botomisation (I've no idea how they're doing).
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: MCreeper on March 08, 2022, 07:43:12 am
We'll see next turn, i guess, depending on outcome of battle. If it will be the same crushing defeat as on the first try despite mage support, then might as well switch Ind to AI. So far i was doing fine enough, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Replacement for Ind sought!
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2022, 11:49:52 am
Would you be able and willing to change the original topic to seek a replacement?
Ultimately, if someone wants to take over, they will.  If nobody is interested, your nation will have to be flipped AI.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 09, 2022, 11:02:46 am
Seriously, Ys? The Throne of the Pantokrator? Way to make the few fence-sitters reconsider their stance.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 10, 2022, 09:31:07 am
I'm sure you'll be fine, just recruit some high holy priests and preach it back :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 10, 2022, 04:24:51 pm
Just to clarify: what's the status? Are we on hold waiting for an Ind replacement?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 10, 2022, 05:02:22 pm
Maybe Agartha can summarise the current state of affairs with Ind, after that battle MCreeper mentioned?

But in either case, I'd say we wait until tomorrow and, should nobody turn up by the current deadline, just switch it to AI.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: MCreeper on March 10, 2022, 06:26:13 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on March 10, 2022, 05:02:22 pm
Maybe Agartha can summarise the current state of affairs with Ind, after that battle MCreeper mentioned?

But in either case, I'd say we wait until tomorrow and, should nobody turn up by the current deadline, just switch it to AI.
No battle happened, Agartha retreated to collect more troops (charger is not quite as dead as i thought). I still have my 350-strong army, Agartha probably will soon come at me with 100 of sacreds and magma children each. Eh, will switch myself to AI next turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 11, 2022, 09:35:40 pm
For the record, I never got Turn 34.
Eh, its fine, I did get the newest turn, Turn 35
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 11, 2022, 09:58:54 pm
My email account thinks that the emails are spam fairly frequently, but if it's not even in spam there's an option for a turn resend on the website.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 12, 2022, 01:05:16 am
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 11, 2022, 09:58:54 pm
My email account thinks that the emails are spam fairly frequently, but if it's not even in spam there's an option for a turn resend on the website.
I did in fact request the turn to be resent.  Llamaserver did not cooperate.  It probably wasn't a spam issue, as the following turn arrived normally.
Let us just say its fucked up and move on perhaps?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 12, 2022, 01:25:50 pm
I've had probably 3 turns in the last 5-10 where I had to request a resend. Resends have all arrived w/o problem. Using Gmail FWIW.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: kriv02 on March 12, 2022, 01:42:39 pm
I've had that issue with the past few turns. Once I had to request the resend twice. I checked my spam folder each time, too, and they weren't there, so it seems like it's probably a problem on llamaserver's end.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: a1s on March 14, 2022, 04:38:40 am
Same here. Had to request several resends (per turn!) but it always eventually arrives.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 14, 2022, 08:37:12 am
No issues on my side. Worst there was, a turn submission confirmation email came with half an hour delay.
Perhaps you're just not worshipping the right pretender? Mine is Bill, lord of hotmail.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 14, 2022, 04:36:22 pm
Lol damn, for some reason I'm so used to even fast dudes only being able to move 1 province underwater that I forgot Movarchs can move two.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 14, 2022, 04:43:30 pm
Wait, seriously? I've always thought water move was hard limited to 1 province per turn for everybody.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 14, 2022, 05:20:44 pm
No, it's just that water provinces have a movement cost of 5 per step, same as like forests and wastelands (and unlike them, there's no underwater survival to cut down the costs) so moving 2 squares takes 20 movement and since cav and fliers are rare underwater it's rare that anything can do that.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 14, 2022, 10:29:56 pm
For the benefit of those watching from home, a short recap on the current state of affairs.
Criptfeind - Na'Ba, The Name of God has captured ONE Throne
E. Albright - Ys, Rounaez-Vamm Gloar has captured ONE Throne

And those two have been at war for about a year in-game time.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 15, 2022, 05:07:32 pm
Message on llamaserver in case anyone's missed it:
Quote
15th March: The LlamaServer is not currently succeeding in delivering emails to some (or perhaps all) gmail addresses - it seems that gmail has added a new security feature that the LlamaServer is not yet compatible with. Thanks very much to a couple of people for letting me know there was an issue. I'll try to look at this as soon as I get a chance - hopefully it's fixable!


Quote from: Il Palazzo on March 14, 2022, 08:37:12 am
Perhaps you're just not worshipping the right pretender? Mine is Bill, lord of hotmail.
See, I was right. Bill is good. Bill is love. Worship Bill.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 15, 2022, 08:08:58 pm
Sadly, I now remember that Llama server is picky about email addresses. So many quirks of Llama server to remember...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 16, 2022, 08:40:49 am
As of this turn, it's official, I've site searched every province I own, both in Na'ba and C'tis, with fire 3-4, and have found 2 1 gem fire sites. I feel like fire is normally one of my most common gem types, sometimes even in games where I don't have fire magic since so many fire sites are t0, so this might very well be my worst fire income ever in a game at this point. And I'm in theory a major fire nation. But forget contesting eternal pyre or whatever, I'm having to trade fire gems from other nations just to have enough for basic use :P. Sorta funny.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 16, 2022, 09:02:00 am
That province I got from you is LOADED with fire gems
Joking, please don't kill me  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 16, 2022, 09:15:18 am
I'm kinda like that with earth gems. But as I complained before, there's an odd dearth of sites overall, methinks.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 16, 2022, 09:26:50 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on March 16, 2022, 09:02:00 am
That province I got from you is LOADED with fire gems
Joking, please don't kill me  :P

Good point, it did actually have one now that you mention it, so I guess I should have said I found 3 fire sites :P.

Quote from: Il Palazzo on March 16, 2022, 09:15:18 am
I'm kinda like that with earth gems. But as I complained before, there's an odd dearth of sites overall, methinks.

My actual number of sites seems fine, averagish I guess, just fire seems super low.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 16, 2022, 09:29:18 am
I don't know. The first two provinces I searched - 3-4 sites. All the rest, with the same rainbow-y prospecting team - I'm lucky to get one. Maybe I was just spoiled by initial luck.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 16, 2022, 11:19:20 am
Concur on dearth of fire. Elemental stuff in general has seemed low. Getting my research to to the point where I could spam Voice of Tiamat was disappointingly anti-climactic.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 16, 2022, 12:25:12 pm
Where is Abyssia's sales pitch? Get your fire gems, special deal of 2 or 3 other gems for 1 fire gem? Rubies for sale!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 16, 2022, 12:34:15 pm
Oh, I just wanted to officially recognize the rights of the Ys Surface Dwellers Dissident Movement.  They will no longer tolerate Morgen's underwater dictates of their surface affairs, and have formally petitioned Mictlan for citizenship.  The Great Lord EuchreJack has graciously granted them and their land incorporation into our domain.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 16, 2022, 12:36:55 pm
The People's Republic of Phlegra neither condemns nor approves of Mictlan's 'special military operation'.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 16, 2022, 07:16:02 pm
 "Ys Surface Dwellers"? I mean, come on, at least make it convincing and talk about how you're intervening to defend the rights of ethnic Kernou...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 16, 2022, 10:08:59 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on March 16, 2022, 07:16:02 pm
"Ys Surface Dwellers"? I mean, come on, at least make it convincing and talk about how you're intervening to defend the rights of ethnic Kernou...
What is that? I can't hear you. :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 17, 2022, 06:04:44 pm
You alright there with your turn, EJ?
If you're just taking your time, it's all fine. No pressure. But if the reason the game has been held back is the same server shenanigans as before, then maybe try resubmitting etc., before the deadline hits. Staling during war time is no fun.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 17, 2022, 07:19:16 pm
Just running a little late, I should be submitting in a few hours.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 17, 2022, 09:12:59 pm
Another shitty turn submitted, game should be processing momentarily...
EDIT: And turn processed.  Hey Ys, stop trying to win the game by snagging more thrones, and launch that army against me already. 
Aerial drones killing off my commanders, I really am Russia.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 17, 2022, 09:54:58 pm
Holy hell, Na'Ba. I know you were complaining about not finding fire sites and not sites in general like the rest of us, but when you've got a throne province like Black Forest (63) that's 4b2s and then you find 5 sites on it adding 1e4d1n, I feel like you don't have any grounds to be complaining about a scarcity of ANY sites.

Also, Mictlan, ha-ha, yes, the solitary H1 priest who capped that throne surrounded by 6 hostile provinces containing 200+ giants and who knows how many mages is definitely snagging it and not just raiding. I mean, yes, okay, technically I can airlift enough mages in to make 40PD more than a meaningless roadblock, but that doesn't mean I can hold it for more than an extra month or two. Certainly not long enough to build a fort.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2022, 01:53:26 am
...what, you haven't learned Gateway yet?
Ys is truly a primitive realm.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 03:56:29 am
Lol holy hell that province, I didn't know it had those sites (well, the death sites) before you did but yeah that's a hell of a province. (although I think thrones automatically have a higher magic site frequency, so it's probably not that rare for a throne province, just interesting in that it has all those death gems at once) And I guess fuck my 1000 gold in forts and Malikah there. Also walking though an enemy province in order to raid someplace 2 away. I totally forgot that possibility. Figured you wouldn't air drop in kitted thug on a suicide mission but forgot that you could do that sorta shit.

I guess I'm going to have to get a bunch of counter thugs and/or an army fucking horror marked if I want a fort. FML
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2022, 07:30:07 am
Walking stealth invasion is also a suicide mission. If you lose/retreat, I don't think your stealth invader survives. Which means your enemy gets at least some of that juicy equipment.

The irony is that my nation lacks any thug characters, yet I'm explaining this to all the other nations that have fairly obvious ones.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 08:04:20 am
Morgens aren't stealthy.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2022, 08:54:56 am
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 08:04:20 am
Morgens aren't stealthy.
Uh, they have glamour. Doesn't that give them stealth?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 09:01:01 am
No, glamour makes it so they get a free cast of mirror image at the start of a battle and that they can't be seen on the map via scouting reports, but doesn't actually make them stealthy by itself.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2022, 09:02:09 am
They also have sailing?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 09:05:26 am
I don't see the relevance of that but yeah. They also have sailing.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2022, 09:14:10 am
I guess the relevance being - they can't do explicitly stealthy things, like sitting for a few months in your backyard before attacking, or attacking in the stealth phase of the turn resolution. But in some ways they're functionally stealthy - with glamour, sailing, and high map movement, they can concentrate in home territory without you being able to see it, before striking into remote provinces that most other troops would need to laboriously fight their way to.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 09:25:09 am
"Stealth phase of the turn resolution"? There isn't a particularly different part of the turn for the resolution of stealth attacks, stealth movements and attacks happen at the same time and in conjunction with normal movement. Are you perhaps thinking of magical phase movement and attacks?

Also agreed that the combination of glamor+sailing+high map move+underwater allows them to do a decent elfing if they wish. The other side of the coin of stealth though is the defensive capability of the unit, units going into hiding are hidden before the magic phase, so they get to avoid teleportation and remote attack spells, which has been a pretty big deal with Ys so far, I've killed a decent number of Morgens via teleporting counter thugs into them thus far, something normal elves can fairly easily avoid.

That's what I was talking about with the big difference between a normal stealth attack, which can be risky sorta if you are at risk of being forced to retreat for sure, vs what'd be a suicide mission for a non stealthy unit teleporting behind enemy lines.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2022, 09:39:34 am
All this time I was convinced there was a separate phase for sneaky attacks (or maybe there was one in Dom3 or 4?).
But turns out they are just resolved conditionally either in the magic phase (i.e. sneaky units will join in on any magic-borne attack) or the regular combat phase.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 09:46:31 am
Ah, interesting, I had no idea they would join in with magical phase attacks. Is that only if they are attacking the province they are currently in, or can units on sneak and attack join in magical phase attacks as well?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2022, 09:56:34 am
I don't know, actually. That's all illwiki says on the topic (which is still more than the manual does).
Some testing would be in order.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Karlito on March 18, 2022, 10:06:52 am
There's also the rather opaque movement-priority/cancelling rules. Two armies ordered into each other's adjacent provinces will usually not just pass each other but both will fight in one or the other province. Stealthy forces already in a province, can attack it to prevent an army in it from moving out, though there's some kind of size comparison test that goes on.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2022, 10:11:07 am
Quote from: Karlito on March 18, 2022, 10:06:52 am
There's also the rather opaque movement-priority/cancelling rules. Two armies ordered into each other's adjacent provinces will usually not just pass each other but both will fight in one or the other province. Stealthy forces already in a province, can attack it to prevent an army in it from moving out, though there's some kind of size comparison test that goes on.
That's what I had in mind with attacking in the stealth phase. But there's nothing along those lines in the manual - all movement happens before all non-magical battles (well, except assassinations).
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 10:13:35 am
Tested it out, sneak and attack units don't join in during magic phase attacks. Also there's a line on the wiki implying that glamoured units are automatically stealthy which might be the cause of some confusion, I'll drop a message in their channel I guess about that. actually looks like they are probably going to merge the stealth and stealthy pages and I'd guess that error will be removed when that happens so I'll wait until they do and see.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2022, 10:22:50 am
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 18, 2022, 10:13:35 am
Tested it out, sneak and attack units don't join in during magic phase attacks. Also there's a line on the wiki implying that glamoured units are automatically stealthy which might be the cause of some confusion, I'll drop a message in their channel I guess about that. actually looks like they are probably going to merge the stealth and stealthy pages and I'd guess that error will be removed when that happens so I'll wait until they do and see.
Tested it as well. A scout in the same province did join in on the same battle with a cloud trapezing mage.

edit: just to make it clear - same province sneak+magic works; sneak and attack+magic doesn't.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 18, 2022, 11:08:17 am
"Attack Current Province" does indeed join in battles occurring in phase 11 ("Magic battles"). They won't initiate those battles, though - if you only have stealthy attackers and no magic ones, their attack resolves in phase 24 ("Resolve battles") as per normal. This has been how the resolution works out since at least Dom3. The manual doesn't explicitly say this, though, no.

And yeah, the lack of stealth is a pretty big deal when raiding with Morvarc'h. The high mobility, amphibiousness, and sailing help, but retaliation is a pretty big drawback, especially if you don't happen to end up on a lab where you can swap gear to respond to incoming countermeasures and/or do some shenanigans to teleport your raider out.

Glamour does not grant stealth. It adds +25 to it if you already have it. That's why fae troops are nigh universally +65 stealth. Signed, someone who spent far too much time learning about how these sorts of unit abilities interact so as to more "realistically" add things like gloso, giant parrot, and flying fish cavalry to NationGen.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2022, 09:42:09 pm
Well, a pair of ranger boots, etc. can fix some of those issues...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: E. Albright on March 18, 2022, 10:38:56 pm
Ranger Boots (and similar items) won't work, even if we weren't talking about cavalry. Those boost existing stealth. The only ways to grant stealth to non-stealthy units are Shademail or the artifact Amulet of the Doppleganger.

If you're using the mod inspector, the difference is "Stealth bonus" vs. "Stealth".
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 20, 2022, 06:35:51 am
Requesting a 24 hour extension, as my Sunday is busier than normal.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: MCreeper on March 20, 2022, 11:27:57 am
Extension given
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 20, 2022, 08:01:15 pm
Yay, thanks!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Searching for a replacement
Post by: EuchreJack on March 21, 2022, 04:04:47 am
Oh, well at least my turn has been submitted.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 24, 2022, 11:04:57 am
Turn extension please?

I've been so busy lately, I have not even had time to look at the turn. Hopefully, I will get back on track for future turns.

Nevermind, QDOS turn submitted.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 24, 2022, 01:51:00 pm
Maybe you need a longer break? A week or two - to let irl things settle down a bit?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 24, 2022, 02:54:07 pm
Eh, if I take a week or two break, you'll need to find a replacement, since I'll be out of the habit of playing.
Overall, this seems to be working?
I could also technically give myself an extension (I have the admin password), but I figured it was more democratic to make the requests.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 24, 2022, 03:08:42 pm
Quote from: EuchreJack on March 24, 2022, 02:54:07 pm
I could also technically give myself an extension (I have the admin password), but I figured it was more democratic to make the requests.
Isn't the sole other admin MCreeper? I'm not sure it's fair to expect him to keep tabs on this thread any more.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 24, 2022, 03:14:38 pm
I can't really complain because it's been taking me forever to get my turns in on this game as well. :P Also honestly although it's annoying when games become stuck in a perma extend every turn state and I've played a few games where some players needed to be prodded at the end of every turn timer then needing an extension and often an extension on that extension, I don't think we're there yet (well, kinda since we switched turns to 3 days, but 3 days honestly isn't too bad) and I'd much rather give an extension to a player rather then let them stall so I'm alright with the gm or you throwing them down if need be. If it comes up that the game starts getting continually stalled out maybe we can formulate what to do then, but hopefully that doesn't happen (and tbh, I sorta doubt that the bay12 dominions community is large enough to find a sub in so I'm gunna cross my fingers and hope that it doesn't come up.)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 24, 2022, 03:30:37 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on March 24, 2022, 03:08:42 pm
Quote from: EuchreJack on March 24, 2022, 02:54:07 pm
I could also technically give myself an extension (I have the admin password), but I figured it was more democratic to make the requests.
Isn't the sole other admin MCreeper? I'm not sure it's fair to expect him to keep tabs on this thread any more.
Yeah, that is sort of why I just rushed the turn this time. If there is no objection, I'll just give myself an extension if need be, or rush in the turn.

If anyone is interested in the nice people of Mictlan, I'd be happy to give a potential successor the grand tour.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 27, 2022, 10:09:10 am
Turn submitted
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 11:09:59 am
Ahhhhhhh
(https://i.imgur.com/ukhjBVH.png)
The holy turn, in which I can spend every last pound of gold.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 27, 2022, 11:33:24 am
Say, anyone knows how to play Phlegra? I'm all ears for hints and tips.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 11:48:37 am
Feels like 40 turns in might be a bit late to be asking that question. I don't think I've ever actually played Phlegra but just looking at them I see they have turn 0 communions and decent recruitable super combatants. So I'd play with decently sized communions, oppressors can use fire and air to throw down damaging evocations (and sometimes buffs) and earth and water for buffs (and damage in some situations) tyrants can lead communions to get air and death magic in to win big battles. Tyrants can SC and Tyrants and Cyclopes can thug well. (Cyclopes in particular can cloud traipse if they are air randoms or empowered, sorta expensive if you loose them doing this since they are rare and cap only, but still a good option to have. Consider big hats so that they don't get air elementaled to death if that's a concern like vs Ys or Na'ba.) You have enough elemental paths to summon the big elemental mages and then hook them up to your communions to get sickeningly high levels of elemental magic turn 0 if you want to do that sorta cool stuff, that's a bit late game but we're sorta starting to reach that point in the game. Anything in particular bring about that question now?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 27, 2022, 12:07:06 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 11:48:37 am
Feels like 40 turns in might be a bit late to be asking that question.
I know, right? :D
I'm just finding it much harder to leverage what looked like its strengths than I thought it would be. Esp. when compared to what the other nations here can field without much trouble. The thugs/SCs like to die to surprisingly shit troops. And while I can sort of see cheesing them against some of the off-the-shelf troops the other nations here are fielding, I'm almost certain they'll be all but useless against some of the others. The communions require strong battle line to leverage, but the only readily available option - the helotes - require major buffing just to keep them from immediately dissolving.
BTW, with this gem income, I might be able to start relying on summons maybe by turn 60 ;P.

Oh, well. Just complaining.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 01:19:02 pm
I feel like your Tyrants, at least the SC capable randoms, should be able to kill an infinite number of anyone troops with the right buffs and gear, only thing that should be able to kill them are counter thugs and mages and weapons of sharpness or the right bless on sacreds (and although those are pretty wide categories they are at least less common then surprisingly shitty troops). Although yeah. SCings very hard since so many things can kill one if you don't gear them right vs the mages they'll face. tbh I'm not sure if I want to play a nation that has it as a core commander/tactic :P. Although it can be very scary to fight vs Phelgra since if they do make a good tailored SC and just boop your whole army with it it'll be sad times.

Helots do basically exist just to die but in doing so take enough of the enemies firepower for your own mages to get off their spells and kill the enemy. Although at this point that's not really an inaccurate description of most troops in most nations. Helots seem pretty okay for it at least since they are basically free?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 27, 2022, 01:22:25 pm
It's fine. It's more than probable that I'm just shit at playing nations that require actual thinking.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 01:33:22 pm
Fair enough. I'm pretty sure there's probably like. One person who's good at dominions in the world and everyone else is just a greater or lesser degree of terrible at it :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 27, 2022, 05:12:19 pm
Unless something has changed, The Great Ys vs. Mictlan War basically consists of Ys killing off the occasional commander and Mictlan standing on the shoreline looking all scary.

So Phlegra isn't the only nation suffering the Big Whimper.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 08:25:41 pm
Looks like that's still the case. I keep getting my scouts patrolled out in that area as I try to see you fight his island defense force but neither of you ever move out :P (understandable from both of you though)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 28, 2022, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 27, 2022, 08:25:41 pm
Looks like that's still the case. I keep getting my scouts patrolled out in that area as I try to see you fight his island defense force but neither of you ever move out :P (understandable from both of you though)
Yes, our Provincial Defense Forces appreciate the free training exercises...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on March 29, 2022, 08:48:03 pm
Really, a Firbolg Fortress? That's two site-based citadels my neighbors have found on my borders. Well, if that doesn't turn the course of this war I can't imagine what would...

It is what it is, but the cruel timing picked by RNGsus is still miserably frustrating...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 30, 2022, 03:41:28 am
Are you fighting in the east at the same time you've attacked me in the west? Naughty. Disrespectful. A water nation Classic tbh. I should have already known this you'd think but for some reason this game is scout hell. Everyone is patrolling.

Edit: I just noticed you site searched my water provinces when you held them! That's wildly disrespectful :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 30, 2022, 03:51:47 am
It's also not worth spending the gems on underwater scouts.

EDIT: For the record, the Firbolg Fortress is better than anything I can actually make myself.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 30, 2022, 04:09:48 am
Also, WTF Ys? How did you get that thug past my forces?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on March 30, 2022, 04:11:54 am
He has enough movement speed to walk though your territories. There's a pretty big penalty to doing this so basically only very fast cav wearing light armor can do it. I've been talking about this thug for a bit in the thread myself. It's certainly annoying.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on March 30, 2022, 04:13:40 am
Oh, more Dominions 5 bullshit.
Back in my day (Dominions 3), enemy territory ended movement, I thought.
Especially for me, a nation with NO cavalry.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 30, 2022, 10:45:36 am
Lol Ind AI. A fuckhuge Agarthean army ante portas, but it's going to send its own blobs to siege my forts instead.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 01, 2022, 02:36:53 pm
I have granted myself & Ys (and anyone that wants to resubmit their turn) a 24 hour extension.
Looking at the time and my schedule, I wasn't sure if I would be making it.

My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause.  You may go back to plotting my doom.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 02, 2022, 06:58:22 pm
Ya'll gunna be able to get in your turn alright? There's like an hour and a half left.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 02, 2022, 07:05:21 pm
Being submitted...now
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 02, 2022, 07:25:59 pm
Hot damn, my 30 prot thug really got chunked down by 12 damage spears huh? I knew he'd be taking a lot of critical hits but I didn't quite realize they wrecked armor that badly.

Sorta a pathetic and sad showing. Clearly I need to brush up on how to thug underwater.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 05, 2022, 02:49:23 am
Happy Tuesday!
I just postponed the hosting by 24 hours, so you (and I) can have a full day to figure out your turns. I should probably not get in the habit of doing this...
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 05, 2022, 07:27:27 am
Probably not... It's fine if you legit need the 4 days to do your turn because you're super busy or something unexpected came up, but if it's a situation where you're always waiting until the last moment to even start then needing even more time... Try to start earlier.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 05, 2022, 07:47:48 am
Since in this instance even you have yet to submit your turn, with only kriv02 - Agartha having submitted a turn, I felt it appropriate this time.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 05, 2022, 08:01:30 am
It's a terrible habit to hold off on submitting my turn until the end, but I don't do it because I need more time, but rather because I want to continue to think about my turn and am never satisfied with it, my turn is done and I'll likely submit it without editing, which means that even if something suddenly came up so long as I had like 5 minutes at my computer I could submit it without an issue with the deadline. So don't worry about me when it comes to things like this, I'll be sure to ask if I need it :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 06, 2022, 05:03:18 pm
My turn has been submitted.
Anyone need a bail-out turn extension?
I'll try to monitor it, but no guarantees if you don't ask...
Edit: Nevermind, I see everyone was able to get their turns in. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2022, 05:30:33 pm
Frankly, I'm impressed by how poorly that fort battle went. The AI seemed to be going out of its way to be ineffectual.

Ah, well, I've been living on borrowed time. Drain scales only work if you have a good expansion to offset it, and I honestly think I may have had my worst MP expansion ever this time around. Soon enough everyone else will get to be steamrolled by Na'Ba'. Congrats on winning the PR-game, and thus the game-game.

(I can definitely see why you're such a fan of dense, small maps.)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 09, 2022, 05:36:37 pm
Yeah, Ys probably should have gone AI in-game years ago.  It might have helped us divide your resources to fend off Na'Ba.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2022, 05:57:28 pm
Oh, it's too late for you. They're gonna eat you alive, assuming they don't just bypass you and claim the UW thrones w/o even bothering to fight you. You had your chance, and you knew I wasn't gonna go AI just b/c my position was difficult, so even that isn't a good excuse. Everyone knew who the early leader was, and y'all let them sit back and consolidate control of 1/5th the map with strong magic scales. You'd not be in a meaningfully stronger position if you had another 4-6 provinces strung out across the ocean. Turtling and trying to domkill your neighbors isn't working against me, and it certainly wouldn't work against Na'Ba.

The time to fight Na'Ba was before they had late-game spells at their fingertips. They now have high research and a better economy than any two other nations on the map, and their paths and shrouded dominion mean you'll have a miserable time trying to take the fight to them. It would have been better if they had to fight on 3 fronts, but now you'll be lucky to get 2 fronts, and they're in a position to shut those down. Ya can't say I didn't warn ya. I went to war with them (with promises of simultaneous attacks from you and Abysia), and doing so killed any chance I had of catching up with y'all, but your perfidy isn't gonna serve you any better in the long run.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 09, 2022, 06:00:18 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on April 09, 2022, 05:30:33 pm
(I can definitely see why you're such a fan of dense, small maps.)

Lol, dude... There's no need to continue making snide remarks like this. Diplomacy and lying is all well and good but all the little out of game sniping just because I have the temerity to disagree with you on map design goes past the pale, if you wanta have some debate on it, we could possibly do that in an appropriate thread, but not here and not like this.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2022, 06:11:30 pm
It's not "out of game sniping", nor is it snide. You picked a nation that very strongly favors dense maps (while advocating for us to pick one and arguing they're inherently better), and your playstyle plainly favors it. Pointing this out both serves as warning to the other players in the game about your tactics, and (since you want diplomacy) warns the other players about how trustworthy you are. Not that that matters at this point. You won the moment you convinced Mictlan & Abysia not to fight you.

Just for the record, pages back you made the claim that as a rule you play with better players than you. IDK if that's true normally, but you're definitely not doing so here - we're all either amateurs or very out of practice. You, OTOH, definitely are neither but have been playing at being an ingenue.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 09, 2022, 06:27:22 pm
Hey! I take umbrage over such proclamations. I'm a far, far better player than any of you lot. It's just that, I've been feeling a bit under the weather lately. And I was distracted by, uh, work or something. And I hurt my pinky finger so I can't use my mouse as well. And the dog ate my homework.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 09, 2022, 06:29:15 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on April 09, 2022, 06:11:30 pm
Just for the record, pages back you made the claim that as a rule you play with better players than you.

Is that a reference to this statement?

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 26, 2022, 12:17:18 am
And they certainly are not fair when that happens, It normally means you're playing with a group of players too far below your skill level... So it doesn't happen to me much! :P

Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 09, 2022, 07:16:41 pm
Frankly, I lost on my first turn when I loaded up and saw where the thrones were located.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 12, 2022, 05:02:44 pm
Lol wtf, excess fatigue damage gave one of my mages profuse bleeding and he fucking died. I didn't even know that could happen.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 12, 2022, 06:00:10 pm
Ouch. That EuchreJack snake person pretty stronk.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 13, 2022, 07:35:31 am
Yeah. I love the Teteo Inan. Sometimes I feel like she's the sole thread keeping EA Xibalba in the game :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 13, 2022, 09:58:19 pm
Took you long enough, Il Palazzo.

I'll freely admit to denying the mighty nation of Phlegra the benefits of my non-riotous dominion for quite a while in order to sap their tax base via either revolt or execution of dissidents.  I think this is the last wheeze of a dying nation, trying desperately to grab territory from their neighbor.
...and to think, I thought Mictlan was Russia's parallel.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 14, 2022, 04:05:25 am
Hey, I do feel like I'm channelling Puting something fierce here. In that I've no idea what I'm doing, my intel is bad, and my army consists of shit conscripts and giants with legs of clay.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 14, 2022, 06:03:27 am
Quote from: Il Palazzo on April 14, 2022, 04:05:25 am
Hey, I do feel like I'm channelling Puting something fierce here. In that I've no idea what I'm doing, my intel is bad, and my army consists of shit conscripts and giants with legs of clay.
Don't forget how you paradropped an elite unit behind my lines with no support and my air force clobbered them!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 14, 2022, 06:11:48 am
Yeah. So, the first phase of this special military operation is completed. Now Phlegra is going to shift our focus to what we ever really wanted to do, which is capturing that one fort up north. Yessiree.
In other news, Phlegran rouble is doing fine. The local news said so.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 14, 2022, 11:04:39 pm
In the interest of greater work productivity, I have extended the turn by 24 hours.

My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 20, 2022, 06:46:56 am
Oh look, Agatha Christie is still in the Game!

Meanwhile, the War in Mictlan continues.  I was finally able to capture that one province sticking rudely into my lands, so for me the War is Already Won.

Phlegra seems to agree, as no new military operations were conducted last turn.  Mictlan is sending Peace Negotiators as we speak.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 21, 2022, 08:16:33 am
The Great Archon Appears!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 22, 2022, 11:11:57 am
Damnit, I lost track of time and need to postpone hosting by 24 hours.
Rest assured, I am procrastinating on other matters as well!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 22, 2022, 11:57:09 am
Oh, how nice. I was just going to stop myself, but now I don't have to.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 26, 2022, 05:17:15 pm
With a few secret couple hour extensions, I successfully submitted my turn before the deadline!
Here is to another shitty rushed turn!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 29, 2022, 07:20:00 am
Okay, so. This question might be a bit out of left field, but no one's submitted their turn and there's like 10 hours left. I'll admit that might mean nothing since I have my turn almost totally ready to go and am just waiting on some final things before submission, so if everyone else is like that, no problem no problem. But also I've sorta found that diplomacy has slowed down to somewhere between 0-1 replies per turn from the various people I'm in contact with, and most people were not as much wait until the end style people as me, so I sorta get the feeling that people are struggling to get their turns even though we have a pretty long turn timer. Which sorta implies to me a lack of interest in this game? Is everyone still actually wanting to play the game? Because if people don't want to play, we could call the game. To chip in my own opinion on that question, I'm pretty ambivalent and would be okay ending it, but if people do want to continue to play, I'd be up for it.

Edit: To be totally clear, I'm not trying to badger people to get their turns in quicker, when the timer is 3 days of course you have 3 days no questions asked. I just sorta get the feeling that interest in this game is dying, and wanted to take a frank assessment of other peoples feelings.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 29, 2022, 07:59:53 am
I'm cool with playing, but wouldn't take it against anyone if they wanted to quit. My turns tend to be, similarly, mostly done before deadline. But there's often diplomatic back and forth to take care of. I'm enjoying the slow but steady pace myself.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: kriv02 on April 29, 2022, 11:44:29 am
I'm in favor of continuing to play, personally.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 29, 2022, 12:45:26 pm
My interest in continuing personally ebbs and flows.  I'm currently in a "why can't this be over" mood, but sometimes I can still get into it.
Frankly, I just have a shortage of time and interest.  I'm referring to this as "fun work".

I've been smashing the snooze button on the turn occasionally just because of actual work reasons.

EDIT: What are people's thoughts on the 3-day interval?
Also: Anyone else want the Admin password?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on April 29, 2022, 03:23:50 pm
It sounds like people are in favor of continuing, that's good, I'm happy to do so :P. Just think it's healthy to make sure and ask when the game slows to make sure it's just slow from being slow and not slow from lack of interest.

Quote from: EuchreJack on April 29, 2022, 12:45:26 pm
EDIT: What are people's thoughts on the 3-day interval?
Also: Anyone else want the Admin password?

Tbh I think that the three day interval is a bit long. Not like, super egregiously so. Especially as we're going to start entering the late game soon and stuff will only get more complex. I do prefer slightly shorter turn timers just because I get a lot of anxiety playing dominions and that tends to ramp up over and go back downish when the turn rolls. That said I'm okay with the 3 day turn if it's what people want.

I think you're fine having the admin password? So long as you're willing to be the admin for the game. If you don't want to admin the game any longer I'm sure any of us would be happy to take the position, but you seem to be doing fine.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on April 29, 2022, 03:48:06 pm
I'm fine continuing.

I've generally either been doing tweak-until-the-last-minute-but-generally-done or turning in well ahead of deadline, but I'm not gonna be able to wrap things up on this turn before this next deadline. Could I get a push of at least 6h?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on April 29, 2022, 04:41:53 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on April 29, 2022, 03:48:06 pm
I'm fine continuing.

I've generally either been doing tweak-until-the-last-minute-but-generally-done or turning in well ahead of deadline, but I'm not gonna be able to wrap things up on this turn before this next deadline. Could I get a push of at least 6h?

I've granted a 24 hour extension just in case.

As for the turn interval, I'm not going to shorten it, as I simply can't handle anything less.  I think 72 days hours is probably the sweet spot for a game on Turn 50.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 02, 2022, 08:04:35 pm
Anyone need an extension before I finish up my turn?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 03, 2022, 01:41:00 am
Note: Both Abyssia & Agartha just stalled.  Not a big deal, as I think they're mostly fighting each other far away from the rest of us.
But I thought I should mention it.

Also: I'm probably going AI in the next couple of turns.  NOW! Phlegra put a lot of work into their thugs, and I've only been able to beat them with my Pretender. 
And that was one-on-one. My Pretender LOST to a whole pack of 'em.
I have decent resources, except the most vital of resources: Time.
I just don't have it in me to figure this one out.
Don't ask me for anything, I've given the bulk of it to Yuan Shou.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 03, 2022, 06:43:58 am
GG.

Edit: God damn, even with a coral blade and an anti affliction amulet my fog warriors caster blew her eye out on the first cast. Not an auspicious start.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 03, 2022, 12:32:56 pm
FYI, I gave E. Albright the Admin Password, as they requested the most extensions.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 05, 2022, 07:21:32 am
Thanks for playing EJ.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 05, 2022, 03:01:55 pm
Double post to ask for an extension.
Half an hour of clicking around before deciding I need to do alchemy to meet the budget - and clicking on the wrong arrow. Sigh. I don't have the heart to redo it now.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on May 05, 2022, 10:48:51 pm
I'll push 24h.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 06, 2022, 11:38:40 am
Hm, maybe I should have continued.
Eh, I really don't have the time these days.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 09, 2022, 06:06:11 am
Sadly I've been sorta busy this weekend and probably will be this day as well, might be able to get in a turn but maybe not, so can I get an extension E. Albright?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on May 09, 2022, 03:36:45 pm
Sure. Pushing 24h.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 16, 2022, 06:13:34 pm
12h extension, please?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 16, 2022, 07:03:46 pm
Amazing how many more extension requests come in, now that Euchre "Snooze" Jack is gone!

How's my former kingdom doing?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 16, 2022, 07:16:41 pm
AI Mictlan killed a few of Phelegras raiding giants and took back a chunk of land and took the big army out of your southern coastal fort, abandoning it  to Phelegra in order to join with a forces from the capital lead by the god which is now standing in the middle of mictlan. Phelegra pulled their giants back to support the main army and bring up more and will probably soon siege the capital, I'm not sure if the big Mictlan stack can make it back to attempt defend the capital or if it'll just fall with a whimper. Also don't really know what Mictlan is planning on doing with the big stack. Maybe they don't care about their capital.

AI Mictlan also attacked me and I took west Mictlan.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 16, 2022, 07:30:00 pm
Enjoy the Witches! I had fun with them, even twiceformed a few.  But they're not coming back now!
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on May 16, 2022, 09:38:59 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on May 16, 2022, 06:13:34 pm
12h extension, please?

Pushed.

Pushed twice as much as requested, actually, b/c the server said it did it, but it wasn't updated on the page or the admin log when I checked, so I did it again - at which point it immediately updated. Ofc. *sigh*
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 16, 2022, 11:02:49 pm
Buy One Extension, Get One FREE.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 18, 2022, 05:56:21 am
Should we perhaps end the game?

More than half of the remaining nations are either in AI mode or stalling. E.A. said his Ys is pretty much done for, and I've been rapidly losing interest these past few turns.
I think Criptifiend is going to win anyway. His path to victory was well fought over on the Ysian front, so I don't think he'd feel dissatisfied. All that's left is some busy work.
I'm happy to concede defeat myself.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 18, 2022, 10:55:47 am
I agree with ending it. Not enough people playing. No need to force ourselves to draw a game out with interest dead/dying.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2022, 04:36:27 pm
As Criptfiend achieves final victory, I feel it most fitting to declare myself Second Place in the Dominions contest.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on May 18, 2022, 11:28:17 pm
Game terminated. It's felt like a forgone conclusion to me for ~20-25 turns, so I'm certainly not going to argue for delaying what feels inevitable when we're down to three players still regularly submitting turns.

Cryptfiend, given your early advanced state of research, you never should have let me steal the Death-mage mercenaries I did. I can't imagine you didn't have access to Twiceborn by the time I bought that first one out from under you, and I'm fairly certain you came to regret letting me pick up Urkivel and his vaetti given what I ended up doing with reliable Death access. Twiceborn letting you keep mercs after they die once would be strong enough, but given that you get to keep them AND their troops if you promise the still-living boss eternal life, hiring a living Death mage and not immediately Twiceborning them just seems like a grievous error. I focused my research directly towards Ech4 after I suicided that first necromancer so any more Death mercs would be permanent acquisitions, and given how low the bar is to break into Death, that investment paid off enormously. I just wish I'd've been able to afford empowering my subverted troll shaman with Earth so I could have started cranking out Shademail to overcome the fatal lack of stealth on my elven riders. Enh, the RNG giveth and taketh away, and this game it definitely didn't want to giveth me a worthwhile Earth income. Them's the breaks.

(I still feel like Twiceborning mercs is a bit exploity, but it got reported a long time ago and the devs didn't seem to think so, and it does make a certain amount of thematic sense since Twiceborn specifically requires a pretender's dominion in order for it to work, sooooo...)
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2022, 11:49:17 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on May 18, 2022, 11:28:17 pm
and this game it definitely didn't want to giveth me a worthwhile Earth income. Them's the breaks.

And if you have outright invaded my territory, you would have gotten that worthwhile Earth Income.  Oh well.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 19, 2022, 03:48:11 am
Lord, did I dislike this non-wraparound map. With toroidal worlds, you can always find >some< way to check any player's progress, or threaten most thrones. Here, I saw where I was on turn 1, and pretty much resigned myself to being passive.
I mean, in some way, being in the boondocks like that helped me stay in the game this long, seeing how I had no good strategy for how to play Phlegra (and had I been invaded by one of the more focused nations I'd probably just fold). But having no options (or threats, or little reason for diplomacy) was no fun overall.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2022, 03:54:09 am
Quote from: Il Palazzo on May 19, 2022, 03:48:11 am
Lord, did I dislike this non-wraparound map. With toroidal worlds, you can always find >some< way to check any player's progress, or threaten most thrones. Here, I saw where I was on turn 1, and pretty much resigned myself to being passive.
I mean, in some way, being in the boondocks like that helped me stay in the game this long, seeing how I had no good strategy for how to play Phlegra (and had I been invaded by one of the more focused nations I'd probably just fold). But having no options (or threats, or little reason for diplomacy) was no fun overall.
Eh, I think you figured them out eventually!

Granted, those early wars are sort of how you do that.  I was picking fights earlyish just to get some real combat experience, and it wasn't enough.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 19, 2022, 06:50:33 am
Quote from: E. Albright on May 18, 2022, 11:28:17 pm
Cryptfiend, given your early advanced state of research, you never should have let me steal the Death-mage mercenaries I did. I can't imagine you didn't have access to Twiceborn by the time I bought that first one out from under you, and I'm fairly certain you came to regret letting me pick up Urkivel and his vaetti given what I ended up doing with reliable Death access. Twiceborn letting you keep mercs after they die once would be strong enough, but given that you get to keep them AND their troops if you promise the still-living boss eternal life, hiring a living Death mage and not immediately Twiceborning them just seems like a grievous error. I focused my research directly towards Ech4 after I suicided that first necromancer so any more Death mercs would be permanent acquisitions, and given how low the bar is to break into Death, that investment paid off enormously. I just wish I'd've been able to afford empowering my subverted troll shaman with Earth so I could have started cranking out Shademail to overcome the fatal lack of stealth on my elven riders. Enh, the RNG giveth and taketh away, and this game it definitely didn't want to giveth me a worthwhile Earth income. Them's the breaks.

So, couple of things here. First, I got a event spawned necromancer early on so I didn't need death mercenaries to break into death so keeping them was a low priority, I should have suicided him into a throne though just to deny others yes (although that would have cost me a round of income). And I didn't have enchantment 4 at that point (I got it a couple of turns after you stole the troll mercenary) Making Malikah into light SCs at that point was my goal and that took my research priorities in other directions (which worked out, I killed C'tis almost entirely with 4 Malikah and Abyssia stopped attacking me after I killed one of his armies with one Malikah.) A big thing that informed my research priories is I had a hell blessed Abyssia as a neighbor and flaming arrows is totally useless against them. So enchantment was really kneecapped compared to normal early priorities.

Also to be honest, I feel like he did almost nothing for you?

5-6 bane venom charms. Do you know how many people died of plague in my army?

1 person.

And all my important mages I had cast Pyre of Catharsis after I killed your plague scouts, which, I guess is sorta annoying and expensive but less expensive then the death gems you put into the bane venom charms. Also of course all the foot soldiers were doomed (don't care about them, it's for the best tbh) and maybe some people died in fights from having low hp. But bane venom charms aren't a "I'm going to win this war." expense. They are either a you're loosing the war and want to weaken your enemy in the pretty far future or you just want to be a completely asymmetric asshole. If you want to win a war you're actually fighting you can't maybe have a chance to kill a mage 20 turns in the future, you gota kill them before they take 3 of your forts and kill a bunch of your stuff.

Quote from: Il Palazzo on May 19, 2022, 03:48:11 am
Lord, did I dislike this non-wraparound map. With toroidal worlds, you can always find >some< way to check any player's progress, or threaten most thrones. Here, I saw where I was on turn 1, and pretty much resigned myself to being passive.
I mean, in some way, being in the boondocks like that helped me stay in the game this long, seeing how I had no good strategy for how to play Phlegra (and had I been invaded by one of the more focused nations I'd probably just fold). But having no options (or threats, or little reason for diplomacy) was no fun overall.

Yeah honestly Valanis is a terrible map :P. The lack of ability for distant people to interact with each other is one of the reasons. Combine that with the terrible cave and water system too and it's probably from a game play perspective one of the worst maps I've played on. Still, it's sometimes fun to play bad maps. I had fun overall, although fighting a underwater nation as a land nation is a highly not fun experience, probably over all the worst issue dominions has imo. But that's why I did it, once I realized that there was a bit of a gap in the game between my position and the others I took it upon myself so the rest of you could focus on each other and not worry about Ys :P

Edit: Also yeah, the people in the north had a very rough situation with the throne positions.

Edit 2: I'm sure no one else will find this interesting, but my capital this game had (as of the last turn) an income of 873 gold per turn. Which is I think the highest single province income I've ever seen. Certainly is on turn 56
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 19, 2022, 07:48:44 am
How did you get the income this high? Growth scales alone shouldn't be able to do it, right?
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: Criptfeind on May 19, 2022, 07:55:33 am
Growth 3 + naba gets a capital site (the vault of incense and Marvels) that gives a bonus 100 gold and I have trade winds up (dropped 80 air gems putting trade winds in my capital and in C'tis (C'tis is worth 672 gold which is decent although I've deffo seen higher from caps in longer games) Still not sure if it was worth it, but I got a lot of gold from it).
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Started
Post by: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on May 19, 2022, 06:50:33 am
5-6 bane venom charms. Do you know how many people died of plague in my army?

1 person.

You lost a lot more troops and mages in combat that you would have w/o BVCs (you only killed 3 of the bearers, BTW). Every HP I could take off your troops & mages outside of combat made it much more likely I could actually kill them when we fought. E.g., one more tick of poison from Foul Vapors would have killed the Malikah (and all the giants relying on her Barrel of Air) leading your UW offensive, which I note you turned back. I think you missed the point of them entirely: they were meant to weaken your armies and mages so I'd actually have a chance of inflicting meaningful casualties in pitched battles, not to make them rot to death outside of combat. W/o them you'd've steamrolled me with no meaningful losses. See e.g. the (lack of) difficulty w/which you took my first UW fort. As it was, I crippled your army's bulk (if not its leaders) and deprived you of a lot of fort-crackers on the front. I was always playing a stalling game - you could have killed me (as in, wiped me off the map, not just pushed my back to where we were when we quit) 15-20 turns earlier if you'd've actually tried instead of waiting until there was next to zero risk for you to do so, which was w/o question why I was so frustrated with how you were playing a few pages back. Toying with me while you told everyone else that I was a meaningful threat was par for the course w/your public-facing diplomacy this whole game.

I'll say it again: you won when you convinced all three of your other neighbors to utterly avoid any conflict with you. When I attacked you, you had 29 provinces and 7 forts - I had 1920 provinces and 3 forts. I took three garbage UW province for 6-8 turns, and one middling wasteland for 1-2 turns. Those 2324 provinces were the height of my expansion. I could possibly have stood a chance against you had I attacked Mictlan or Ind instead, but that would have most likely just accelerated the rate at which you attacked me. This is where I don't see any sign that the outcome was changed by Valanis's higher average distance b/tw provinces (aka "non-wrapping topography", as that's what it really is - I could make a NSEW-wrapped map with the same precise layout as Valanis, just with the provinces mapped onto a different image). Bay12 Dominions games are generally slow-paced and cautious, with players being quite willing to try out new things and nations they're not familiar with. You were not doing any of that - you picked probably the strongest nation you could, and optimized its play. Your smashing C'tis (then the biggest nation on the map) entirely to the point of them going AI on turn 23 while suffering no meaningful losses or even setbacks sums that up pretty well. It was much the same when I tried to fight you, and by the sounds of it likewise Abysia. The only way anyone else even might have won given how you approached this game was if we all ganged up on you before you consolidated your first kill, but you diplomacied your way out of that. A more densely connected map, with less obstructing water and no dedicated underworld, would have just made it easier for you to cloud trapeze thugs and SCs down on any army that threatened you. You killed off one of your neighbors and cajoled or intimidated 3/4s the others into not opposing you (and I had to start long before I was prepared to fight you) - it's not likely Ind or Phlegra would have shared enough of a border for them to have changed that calculus, nor the outcome.

I do wonder if things would have been different if I'd've gone with a rainbow resist bless like I almost did. (10fr/10sr/10cr/15pr/2mr/swift/3def/1reivig/mntsurv/6undying/3HP) would have probably fared better than my (10shockres/7def/swiftness/coldmove) against the giant elves you dropped on my unstealthy raider every time I tried to fight you. Ah, well. Live and learn. The foremost lesson unfortunately being "don't try a nation you've never played in MP before, whose playstyle you're not comfortable with, if you're playing people you don't know who aren't necessarily approaching the game as a friendly, casual affair like most of the other players". Or more simply, make sure you know what game you're playing before you start.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2022, 07:43:04 pm
...to this day, I still don't understand MA Mictlan.

I also didn't put in the stress test time that I usually do.  Otherwise I would have understood the Astral gap in my nation, and planned around that.
I was all like, "Wow, my nation has Astral! I don't need to worry about that in Pretender design!"
...then noticed max Astral is 3.  And to make things worse, the Astral 3 casters can't use all the Astral Boosters (the Starshine Skullcap being most insulting).
So for boosting purposes, I really only had Astral 2.  Hence the midgame 90 degree turn to prioritize blood.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Criptfeind on May 23, 2022, 09:49:50 am
Alright, I told myself not to respond because what's the point, but I'm clearly a weak person and can't just leave this laying down. I think I disagree with a lot of what you said E. Albright.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
You lost a lot more troops and mages in combat that you would have w/o BVCs (you only killed 3 of the bearers, BTW). Every HP I could take off your troops & mages outside of combat made it much more likely I could actually kill them when we fought. E.g., one more tick of poison from Foul Vapors would have killed the Malikah (and all the giants relying on her Barrel of Air) leading your UW offensive, which I note you turned back. I think you missed the point of them entirely: they were meant to weaken your armies and mages so I'd actually have a chance of inflicting meaningful casualties in pitched battles, not to make them rot to death outside of combat. W/o them you'd've steamrolled me with no meaningful losses. See e.g. the (lack of) difficulty w/which you took my first UW fort. As it was, I crippled your army's bulk (if not its leaders) and deprived you of a lot of fort-crackers on the front. I was always playing a stalling game - you could have killed me (as in, wiped me off the map, not just pushed my back to where we were when we quit) 15-20 turns earlier if you'd've actually tried instead of waiting until there was next to zero risk for you to do so, which was w/o question why I was so frustrated with how you were playing a few pages back. Toying with me while you told everyone else that I was a meaningful threat was par for the course w/your public-facing diplomacy this whole game.

This is an understandable reason to attempt to use bvcs, but there are two big issues with it that I have. First is that you never fought my diseased army with a strategy that mostly relied on doing small amounts of damage. In the storming of your fort, the largest cause of death for my units was your gifts from the heavens communion, which obviously didn't care at all about the disease.

Spoiler: the fight in question (click to show/hide)

A lot of other kills by your units in this fight were wolves from howl, especially your cubes. Conversely, you didn't gifts of heaven the wolves pretty much at all though a combination of the fact that they are low hp, scattered, and the big one is howl went up super late on my side, like turn 5 or so, so by then then gifts communion had pretty much already wiped itself out and there were only a few scattered gifts dropped afterwards, so those 59 kills were all real kills, leaving only 42 unaccounted for. The reality is between very high base prot and mistform your mundane troops were almost totally unable to kill my dudes even with them at half health. Sure, there were some lucky strikes that might have been turned into a kill via the plague, and my friendly fire probably killed a healthy chunk of plague victims, and although I'm not totally sure how the cubes digestion actually works we can assume that some of the people killed by the cubes died because of the plague (although a fair number of them got instantly yoinked and their health probably didn't matter). Only 42 guys could even possibly have died because of the plague, and realistically it didn't matter for all of them, only some. So the claim that I lost a lot more then I would have can sorta already be discarded. But lets move onto the second issue.

The second issue is that it doesn't matter. Those units don't matter. The limitation of my capability to bring siege to your underwater forts is not the number of troops I have because your underwater fortress are underwater. The limitation on my ability to bring siege to your underwater forts is the cost in gems and mage turns to make underwater gear for my mages and barrels of air for my units. Killing those extra 42 dudes at best added a turn to how much it'd take to siege your other land fortress, a very minor victory for how large of an expense in death gems it was. That entire army above the waves is almost irrelevant to the status of the siege of your below the water fortresses because to the limit of my capability to bring troops underwater I can simply bring up more troops from my reserves. Certainly at least the survivors are enough to fill out any gaps in the roster. If you were a land nation then you'd have more of a point tbh and even those 42 troops could be said to matter. But you're not so they really don't.

Also as a small aside, I turned back because Mictlan abandoned his siege of your fort when Phlegra attacked him, and it was too much of a spring board for you to counter raid back the water provinces or even launch full scale assaults. Besieging someone, especially their important fortresses like their capital, should not be done when your flanks are insecure and if I let you have that island it would make my flanks extremely insecure.

As for feeling like I was toying with you or being insincere about my war with you, I'm sorry you feel that way. But the reality is that underwater nations naturally have a large advantage to fighting underwater, it became clear relatively soon in our fight that it was unlikely you would be capable of killing me, but the advantage you enjoyed on the defense was sufficient to the point where I don't think it was ever (even to the last turn of the game) a forgone conclusion that I would be capable of killing you. I think there were ways you could have won the fighting underwater and my fear of those ways is why I was taking so long to fight you as I slowly amassed counters and tried to secure myself so my push into you wouldn't crumble with a single lost fight.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
I'll say it again: you won when you convinced all three of your other neighbors to utterly avoid any conflict with you. When I attacked you, you had 29 provinces and 7 forts - I had 1920 provinces and 3 forts. I took three garbage UW province for 6-8 turns, and one middling wasteland for 1-2 turns. Those 2324 provinces were the height of my expansion. I could possibly have stood a chance against you had I attacked Mictlan or Ind instead, but that would have most likely just accelerated the rate at which you attacked me.

This doesn't really matter but there was no possible reasonable acceleration of the speed of my assault on you. If you had attacked other people I'm not sure what I would have done. Possibly started to eat my neighbors? Or maybe I would have stagnated? I often struggle with picking a target out after the first war, you made it very easy this game, but more then once I've stagnated though unwillingness to fight people when I should.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
This is where I don't see any sign that the outcome was changed by Valanis's higher average distance b/tw provinces (aka "non-wrapping topography", as that's what it really is - I could make a NSEW-wrapped map with the same precise layout as Valanis, just with the provinces mapped onto a different image).

...

The only way anyone else even might have won given how you approached this game was if we all ganged up on you before you consolidated your first kill, but you diplomacied your way out of that. A more densely connected map, with less obstructing water and no dedicated underworld, would have just made it easier for you to cloud trapeze thugs and SCs down on any army that threatened you. You killed off one of your neighbors and cajoled or intimidated 3/4s the others into not opposing you (and I had to start long before I was prepared to fight you) - it's not likely Ind or Phlegra would have shared enough of a border for them to have changed that calculus, nor the outcome.

This seems like an obviously wrong statement to the point like I feel like I must be misunderstanding you. With the lack of wrap I had almost no neighbors to the south (a single tile province connection with Agartha) and absolutely no neighbors to the west. With a wrapping map I would have maybe had a smallish (thus not attractive for a war) border with Phlegra to the south west and a very large border with Ind to the west, especially once I killed and ate C'tis. C'tis would have had a big border with Ind and maybe a border with Phlegra. The whole thing about a non wrap around map is that there's edge that you can conquer along and thus increase your territory without increasing your frontage. That's obviously impossible to do short of conquering all the way around in a wrapping map.

As for cloud trapizing people down on top of armies. As far as the actual reach of the spell and coverage I had full capability to do that to everyone I fought in all the provinces I fought them in throughout the entirety of this game. A wrapping map couldn't have have possibly made it more possible because it was already at maximum possibility in every province I fought in. The limitation wasn't my reach, but my access to gear which obviously would have been what actually mattered if I was attacked by even more people at once.

Also when I said I don't like Valanis and mentioned the underworld and the sea it's not because of how they impact movement and closeness, but simply because of the nation balance. A giant interconnected underworld like this is way too strong for cave loving nations, and a single sea with good access to most places and not enough room for 2 water nations is way too strong for a water nation. Well, water nations are basically sorta broken and unbalanced no matter how the sea looks, so tbh my favorite take on water on a map is probably maps that don't support them in their seas :P.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
Bay12 Dominions games are generally slow-paced and cautious, with players being quite willing to try out new things and nations they're not familiar with. You were not doing any of that - you picked probably the strongest nation you could, and optimized its play. Your smashing C'tis (then the biggest nation on the map) entirely to the point of them going AI on turn 23 while suffering no meaningful losses or even setbacks sums that up pretty well. It was much the same when I tried to fight you, and by the sounds of it likewise Abysia.

This is a lot of assumptions about me and frankly some hypocrisy out of you. Yeah. I killed and ate C'tis in the early mid game. And yeah, I never really struggled in fighting anyone.

This wasn't because I "picked probably the strongest nation you could". That would have been probably Ys. Nor did I "optimized its play". I don't even know fully what an optimized Na'ba looks like, but I know it's not what I did, either in nation design or gameplay. Fighting you was explicitly an abandonment of the optimal gameplay path this game. Fighting underwater is hell for land nations and I felt like no one but me really had the capability or willpower to do it, in a sense it was my penance for picking such a strong nation when I was unaware of the general skill level of this game. And yes, if I knew where so many of the other players in this game were at, I wouldn't have picked Na'ba, but you sure as hell shouldn't have picked Ys vs most of these players so what's your excuse?

Furthmore playing this Na'ba sure as hell is me trying out new things and a nation I'm not familiar with, I have played Na'ba before, once, directly previous to this game, but that game was very special in the sense that because I started on a stupid tiny island my expansion ended turn 5 and by turn 7 I was in a war with a neighbor 3x my size for pretty much the rest of the game, that game was so extremely different that it really had no relationship to any normal dominions game and certainly my build in that game was extremely different then in this one. This is the first game I've ever made a Sahir (of either type) or constructed a fort as Na'ba for that matter.

And over all I wanted to play a (real) game of Na'ba because I've had a pretty heavy focus on sorcery and army buffing nations thus far in my dominions games. I've had pretty much zero experience with thug based nations or nations with a heavy elemental/evocation theme (and I didn't get much of either of those from my first Na'ba game). This game absolutely was experimental for me.


Quote from: E. Albright on May 19, 2022, 12:43:05 pm
I do wonder if things would have been different if I'd've gone with a rainbow resist bless like I almost did. (10fr/10sr/10cr/15pr/2mr/swift/3def/1reivig/mntsurv/6undying/3HP) would have probably fared better than my (10shockres/7def/swiftness/coldmove) against the giant elves you dropped on my unstealthy raider every time I tried to fight you. Ah, well. Live and learn. The foremost lesson unfortunately being "don't try a nation you've never played in MP before, whose playstyle you're not comfortable with, if you're playing people you don't know who aren't necessarily approaching the game as a friendly, casual affair like most of the other players". Or more simply, make sure you know what game you're playing before you start.

I know you're not going to be willing to hear me say this, but I'd be remiss if I didn't try. This is a fair lesson but it's not the primary lesson you should learn from this. If you went with a standard elf resist bless that might have helped you a bit, but it really wouldn't have changed this game. Your primary problem this game wasn't your bless (which would have made the biggest difference when using your sacred troops to fight me, which you never did) but rather your lack of flexibility, imagination, and frankly commitment to the war. You attacked me with about half a dozen thugs geared more or less identically. You started by giving them salt, which didn't help really, when I used poison to kill them you gave them poison resist, when I killed them with other things you gave up and stopped innovating. You never supported these things in any way or used any trick or trap with them. You never (until the very last thug) played around with their kit much. You briefly experimented with charged body and breath of winter (I saw with my scouts) but never actually used these spells against me. There's so god damn much you could have done to be competitive in the raiding war between us but you never did any of it. There's no bless that would have allowed you to do anything significant with just half a dozen thugs that never switch it up and never do anything new. No matter how hard they are to kill, I would have found and deployed a cost effective way of killing them, and then you'd be in this same situation if you didn't innovate from there.

Quote from: EuchreJack on May 19, 2022, 07:43:04 pm
...to this day, I still don't understand MA Mictlan.

I also didn't put in the stress test time that I usually do.  Otherwise I would have understood the Astral gap in my nation, and planned around that.
I was all like, "Wow, my nation has Astral! I don't need to worry about that in Pretender design!"
...then noticed max Astral is 3.  And to make things worse, the Astral 3 casters can't use all the Astral Boosters (the Starshine Skullcap being most insulting).
So for boosting purposes, I really only had Astral 2.  Hence the midgame 90 degree turn to prioritize blood.

I've never played MA Mictlan and I've never played against a successful MA mictlan, but my totally uniformed off the cuff feeling on them is that they'd work really well with a bless focused on making the eagle warriors super killy. Since they are cheap, recruit anywhere, and can fly, you can throw them into the enemy army to be guided blender missiles, fly in, kill, die and and with the right bless you should be able to kill fast enough that it's cost effective. Include a path into blood to spam out Civateteos until you get the blood income to support mass Rain of Jaguars (or Bind Jaguar Fiends earlier) since I think the Ozelotls want the same blender bless as Eagle warriors.

Astral 3 on guys that can't wear hats sucks because it locks you out of mass mind hunt, but I'm not totally sure if you want to go big astral god. Astral 3 IS enough to do most of the battlefield astral work you need, Will of the Fates is at astral 4 (easy to get to with any flying snake) and all you really need as far as big astral. Things like master enslave, arcane nexus, and rings of sorcery/wizard are honestly sorta greed options compared to just getting better sacred blenders I think. Of course I can't blame people for going greed. I took astral 6 on my god this game just to make the rings and eventually cast the big spells and it didn't pay off at all.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: EuchreJack on May 23, 2022, 01:24:04 pm
Regarding Astral: Presumably, every player needs to be able to cast Wish eventually, and they need a long term plan to get there.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Criptfeind on May 23, 2022, 02:18:19 pm
I can't tell if you're joking or not  :P

But in case you're being serious of course not everyone needs to be able to cast wish. Wish is super duper late game and taking a god to cast it is hugely greedy. It can for sure be worth it in the super late game but it's so late that I doubt it's something done in most games that aren't high player count. Might be more reasonable to count on casting wish if you're a water nation I guess since they can often afford to be more greedy, I suppose Pelagia is basically made for wishing since they are dominant underwater and can cultivate pearls.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on May 23, 2022, 09:49:50 am
And yes, if I knew where so many of the other players in this game were at, I wouldn't have picked Na'ba, but you sure as hell shouldn't have picked Ys vs most of these players so what's your excuse?

My excuse? I've played exactly 1 MP game of Dom5 and it's been like 36mo - maybe 42. I'm bad with elf nations and have never played one competitively. So I was playing a nation of a type I'm bad with, that I didn't know how to play, outside my comfort zone, when I was very out-of-practice. As I said repeatedly, you dropped a lot of hypotheticals about this being Ys's game to lose, but you were always talking about someone else playing a different game even as you insisted you were talking about me. Which, I'll add, you're still doing. It's weird: you persistently insult me, insinuate I'm dishonest & duplicitous, and say I was incompetent, foolish, and hopelessly doomed, but also can't help but then pivot and talk about how powerful my situation was and how I could have easily countered your offensives with my OP nation. I'm at once both very weak and very strong, depending on which would make you look better in that particular sentence. Funny, that.

You, OTOH, were punching down on a bunch of people who spent the pre-game talking about how infrequently they play and how they were unsure of their nations. If you didn't know we're out-of-practice amateur Dominions players, it's hard not to conclude it wasn't b/c you didn't want to know. It's quite rich for you to invoke hypocrisy here - and that's even without considering the insinuated aspersions you've been casting at me this whole game while complaining I was being uncivil and snide.

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 23, 2022, 09:49:50 am
This is a lot of assumptions about me and frankly some hypocrisy out of you. Yeah. I killed and ate C'tis in the early mid game. And yeah, I never really struggled in fighting anyone.

This wasn't because I "picked probably the strongest nation you could". That would have been probably Ys. Nor did I "optimized its play". I don't even know fully what an optimized Na'ba looks like, but I know it's not what I did, either in nation design or gameplay.

We were at war for 23 turns IIRC. For probably 21 or 22 of those, you attacked 2-5 of my border provinces (i.e., most or all of them) with random basic commanders who immediately retreated, à la Dom3 scouting. And every time any army or raider showed its face, you tailored a thug or SC with specific gear to neutralize whatever they faced but then stealth away w/o facing retaliation. Don't tell me you weren't trying to play optimally, and certainly don't tell me that extremely successfully adapting to face new threats proves you weren't. I haven't played a game that felt like this in at least 12y, maybe more. It felt like a CBM game, in the worst possible way.

I'd also add that you were VERY capable of stepping up your conquest. All you'd've had to do was deploy 3-5 thugs or 2-3 SCs at once instead of counting coup by killing off armies with single unsupported mages (this self-imposed handicap seemed odd, but makes more sense since you've now stated you wanted to use this game as thugging practice). You also could have engaged in any sort of raiding or other warfare short of conquest to cripple my economy, yet you didn't - you sat back and turtled until you could curbstomp me at no risk to yourself. Again: it's hard to conclude you weren't toying with us, and that you weren't doing so very knowingly and intentionally - especially since you're also insisting that you were playing sub-optimally. Those two claims are at odds with each other. It looks A LOT like you imposed a specific handicap on yourself, and then min-maxed to a T within the constraint that all heavy lifting would be done by thugs.

Further: Ys would have been FAR easier to counter than Na'Ba. Na'Ba has out-of-the-box ethereal glamoured flying stealthy MR18 shock/fire-res F3A3E1?1 full-slot giants (which I feel comfortable calling supercombatants in the old sense of the word), and recruit-anywhere glamoured stealthy MR17 fire-res F2A2E1?1 full-slot giants. The only weakness Na'Ba has is that its elites have iron and/or salt vulnerability, and that's not much of a vulnerability. Ys has shortcomings galore: ridiculously cap-centric, with much weaker mages who cost roughly as much (plus a lot of resources underwater and no stealth + low magic paths on cav), low magic diversity, outright bad outlying forts, mediocre nat'l troops that cost a lot of resources for EA-tech gear in MA (but can only be found UW or on coasts), spellsong to slow down their best mages, etc. It's also notable that Ys cannot cloud trapeze out of its capital or any of its UW forts, which would make the kind of instant-retaliation shenanigans you used to flatten every army you faced (and almost every raider) significantly more difficult to do turn after turn after turn. Not impossible, ofc, but far more difficult.

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 23, 2022, 09:49:50 am
This seems like an obviously wrong statement to the point like I feel like I must be misunderstanding you. With the lack of wrap I had almost no neighbors to the south (a single tile province connection with Agartha) and absolutely no neighbors to the west. With a wrapping map I would have maybe had a smallish (thus not attractive for a war) border with Phlegra to the south west and a very large border with Ind to the west, especially once I killed and ate C'tis. C'tis would have had a big border with Ind and maybe a border with Phlegra. The whole thing about a non wrap around map is that there's edge that you can conquer along and thus increase your territory without increasing your frontage. That's obviously impossible to do short of conquering all the way around in a wrapping map.

You're falling into the trap of thinking of the image as the map, not the graph of province nodes. Your "neighborless borders" aren't borders, they're the innermost part of your nation (as in, the nodes in the subgraph you control that are furthest from subgraphs you don't control). Again: I could map Valanis's graph nodes onto a different (and "wraparound") map image, and it wouldn't change anything except perhaps the player's psychological reaction to the graph's (aesthetic) topography. Given how many (and how strongly) people seem to react to the aesthetics, though, that probably would matter, even if it shouldn't.

And if you're discounting size-1 borders as being irrelevant - which you do here WRT Agartha - the possibility of Ind or Phlegra sharing (or more likely, almost sharing) a small border with you would have also been irrelevant, especially since they'd've been more vulnerable to other nations according to the logic you're using to make this claim. The main reason there were nations on the map you didn't share borders with at the end is b/c we were all playing conservative games (a large factor in that was you obliterating C'tis early and almost immediately at no cost to yourself) and didn't eat our neighbors quickly enough to reduce the number of players on the map. As you demonstrated very ably, if another nation really wanted to (and felt it could) go to war with you, it could have negotiated passage with its neighbors as you did with Mictlan. If all it took for them to be shut down was diplomacy (as with Mictlan, I think - did they ever even attack you? They claimed they were going to when Abysia and I did but it didn't seem like they did) or one or two supercombatants tailored to slaughter armies singlehandedly but slip away w/o retaliation, all that having more nations' borders close to your nation's heart would have meant was shorter supply lines and ritual ranges.

(As a side note that means very little: it's weird how the above-quoted comment suggests you don't know the layout of the other side of the map given the public discussions of how Ind & Agartha were at war. Phlegra was on the north shore and Ind was on the south.)

Oh, and re: borders and frontage, you absolutely can expand w/o increasing them on "wrapped" maps. For all of the following, assume NSEW wrap on all sides:

Frontage increased:
Code: [Select]
XXOO -> XXOO
XXOO -> XXXO
XXOO -> XXOO
XXOO -> XXOO
XXXO -> XXXO
Frontage maintained:
Code: [Select]
XXOO -> XXOO
XXXO -> XXXO
XXOO -> XXXO
XXOO -> XXOO
XXXO -> XXXO
Frontage reduced:
Code: [Select]
XXOO -> XXOO
XXXO -> XXXO
XXXO -> XXXO
XXOO -> XXXO
XXXO -> XXXO
Conquering a province that has more connections to provinces you don't control than to ones you control will increase your front. Conquering one w/the same amount will maintain it. Conquering one w/fewer will reduce it. All of this is true on maps that are "wrapped" and "unwrapped". The issue isn't the image file, it's the average number of connections between provinces. Densely connected maps will take more conquests to create "internal" provinces that are only connected to your own provinces b/c each province you hold will have more (avg) connections per province to "block off", not b/c the map's image file is or isn't "wrapped". This is graph theory, not geography.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Criptfeind on May 27, 2022, 11:16:43 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
You're falling into the trap of thinking of the image as the map, not the graph of province nodes. Your "neighborless borders" aren't borders, they're the innermost part of your nation (as in, the nodes in the subgraph you control that are furthest from subgraphs you don't control). Again: I could map Valanis's graph nodes onto a different (and "wraparound") map image, and it wouldn't change anything except perhaps the player's psychological reaction to the graph's (aesthetic) topography. Given how many (and how strongly) people seem to react to the aesthetics, though, that probably would matter, even if it shouldn't.

Right, I think I'm getting what you're saying and it's hurting my head a little bit to try to think of the map as a series of nodes and connections and how that would look warped to wrap around but it makes more sense what you're saying and I was mistaken in my understanding before. I'm not actually sure if it's true. This is really in the "That doesn't seem right but I don't have the wherewithal to disagree" territory so I'll just agree with you with a note that the edge, whether it's an edge on a non wrapping map or a section of map with low connectivity to other specific sections (IE: We could say the C'tis section has distant connectivity to the Phlegra section) is a problem (imo and feel this game demonstrated it) and the reason why it exists is because when the node connections were laid out they were laid out for a non wrapping map, you just don't get such distance in wrapping maps, if it's possible or not (obviously would be with work) it's not how people intuitively connect nodes in a wrapping map but is how they do so in a non wrapping one. Which is why non wrapping maps have problems. Obfuscating it via saying it's not necessarily a property of wrap vs non wrap is just ignoring how it's how pretty much all non wrap maps are made and not how pretty much all wrap maps are made.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
This is graph theory, not geography.
Your theory falls apart when it meets Geography :P. I mean, you are right, and I was wrong, conquering a full wrap isn't the only way to not increase frontage. But a conquest in dominions isn't a single straightforward taking of a single entity on a grid, it's taking multiple connected entities in one primary direction, this will cause a bulge unless you're so significantly larger then who you're conquering that you border them on two sides (which realistically requires you be about 3 times larger then them.) So, yeah, in a wrapping map you don't HAVE to increase frontage if you've already eaten 2 other players and then eat a third small player. Although that's not a super realistic scenario a lot of the time, and even when it happens it often means you've loosing a fairly safe flank vs a weak enemy for a tougher flank against what's likely one or more stronger enemies.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
(as with Mictlan, I think - did they ever even attack you? They claimed they were going to when Abysia and I did but it didn't seem like they did)

(As a side note that means very little: it's weird how the above-quoted comment suggests you don't know the layout of the other side of the map given the public discussions of how Ind & Agartha were at war. Phlegra was on the north shore and Ind was on the south.)

Mictlan did attack me! They launched a number of ritual summon and mages flying in attacks on my provinces, pretty much all of which splattered against 6pd because they were sending in the mages to support the ritual summons but the summons died in the magic phase and the mages died in the normal battle phase. They also did a little bit of a more surviving attack if I recall after I gave them a little bit of advice on how the different battle phases work, but that died to Malikah retaliation. Then they sent their god in, took a province, and offered peace in exchange for that province and a mutual war against you (to ensure that we stayed at peace).

And my scouting was embarrassingly bad this game! Despite having recruit anywhere scouts! The way I had very fine control with my expenses between being able to make literally as many desert warriors as I want per turn and have many lab provinces that I can fine tune mage production with by turning hermit production on and off made me not want to have excess money and scout spending always felt like a bit of a waste. Not to mention the theoretical capacity to pump out a huge number of scouts instantly meant it felt like I didn't NEED to make scouts, I could get them when I need them, in theory, but since the far side of the map was so far away that meant I didn't have a steady stream of scouts heading there... Then you combine that with the fact that both Abyssia and Phlegra did a LOT of patrolling in various random provinces and you end up with a situation where I made few scouts and many of the ones I did made died.

Still, I did get some scouts out east, I wasn't that clueless. It's not trivially easy to conceptualize how the map would look if it was made to wrap because of the underground, basically can't do it with the underground how it is really probably since it takes up so much space for so few provinces, but in general the idea is that Phlegra is to the north east, thus I can get to them via going south west (and I'm in the south west so I'd be near them) Ind is in the East so I can get to them via going west (and I'm the west so I'm near them)

Spoiler: Terrible rendition of my imagaination. (click to show/hide)
It's terribly made but you can see in this imagination I'd have a large border with Phlegra and Ind. Not really sure how it'd possibly work out in practice. Certainly I'd have more of a border with more people though in a traditional wrapping map. C'tis lack of a border with Phlegra is sorta like how the US is actually mostly south of most of Europe, C'tis is actually more southern then you'd think!

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
My excuse? I've played exactly 1 MP game of Dom5 and it's been like 36mo - maybe 42. I'm bad with elf nations and have never played one competitively. So I was playing a nation of a type I'm bad with, that I didn't know how to play, outside my comfort zone, when I was very out-of-practice.

...

You, OTOH, were punching down on a bunch of people who spent the pre-game talking about how infrequently they play and how they were unsure of their nations. If you didn't know we're out-of-practice amateur Dominions players, it's hard not to conclude it wasn't b/c you didn't want to know. It's quite rich for you to invoke hypocrisy here - and that's even without considering the insinuated aspersions you've been casting at me this whole game while complaining I was being uncivil and snide.

And yet you played a lot better then some of the other players in this game. There was a little bit of talk of being bad or rusty, especially from C'tis and Abysia, but many of you seemed quite confident in your public and (early game) private diplomacy/chat. To be frank, if you were a representation of everyone in this game I would have been quite happy to play Na'ba to the best of my ability. Of course, you aren't, and ultimately I wasn't really that happy with that aspect of the game. But how should I make that determination? And also, you and Phlegra both played okay it seemed, I don't have any regrets about my choices when it comes to you two. And I think if I didn't kill some people in this game very easily, they would have died just as easily to one of you two too be honest. Frankly, that's what happened to Mictlan.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
As I said repeatedly, you dropped a lot of hypotheticals about this being Ys's game to lose, but you were always talking about someone else playing a different game even as you insisted you were talking about me. Which, I'll add, you're still doing. It's weird: you persistently insult me, insinuate I'm dishonest & duplicitous, and say I was incompetent, foolish, and hopelessly doomed, but also can't help but then pivot and talk about how powerful my situation was and how I could have easily countered your offensives with my OP nation. I'm at once both very weak and very strong, depending on which would make you look better in that particular sentence. Funny, that.

I'm not trying to insult you, although I probably am managing to do so, I find discussion with you pretty frustrating and maddening at times, so it wouldn't surprise me if I'm be somewhat caustic at times. I'll try to slow it down, but at the same time I think you're reading a lot more into what I'm saying then I am saying, and you're conflating my opinion of your opportunities and the game state during the fog of war of the game vs this post game dissection. Obviously in game I'm going to assume the worst, and post game I'm going to defend those assumptions, but post game I can also make statements on where I think my enemies messed up, which would be hilariously arrogant and asking to get my ass kicked in game if I made such statements during the game.

So, to go down the list. Dishonest and Duplicitous? Yes. Your statements at the start of our war about... many topics I could count as both of those. You outright called me a liar about a topic (my size) that I was demonstrably (and did demonstrate) not lying about. I essentially stopped replying to that discussion because I felt like it had devolved into you basically throwing out nonsense and it had (privately) become clear it wasn't working for you and it didn't matter. This isn't necessarily an insult, many people conduct diplomacy via dishonesty. I think it's an accurate label for how you handled diplomacy in some cases in this game.

Incompetent, Foolish, and Hopelessly Doomed? I don't think I was that harsh. Do you want me to attempt to point out what I see as your mistakes? Or leave you to wallow in self pity for not taking a stat resists bless? If you want my specific thoughts on how you could have better conducted this thug war, I can work on putting them together. My intentions weren't to insult you here, but point out genuine flaws in your approach, or at least point out they exist when you seemed to miss them (and thus have no chance to learn from them.) I have no doubt that in giving advice I can give it insultingly at times, but that's not my intention.

How powerful your situation was, and how you could have countered my offenses with your op nation (to be clear, Na'ba is an op nation as well. I don't know which one is MORE op, but on this map I think Ys has a pretty hefty geographical advantage.) Well. That's true too, I think you had a great situation early on and yes you could have stopped my offense. The fact that you didn't is because of what I think are some flaws in your gameplay (At least, stopping the offense, I don't know your situation THAT well to tell if you really squandered your capability to beat me in war.) I don't see the contradiction between these two ideas.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
We were at war for 23 turns IIRC. For probably 21 or 22 of those, you attacked 2-5 of my border provinces (i.e., most or all of them) with random basic commanders who immediately retreated, à la Dom3 scouting. And every time any army or raider showed its face, you tailored a thug or SC with specific gear to neutralize whatever they faced but then stealth away w/o facing retaliation. Don't tell me you weren't trying to play optimally, and certainly don't tell me that extremely successfully adapting to face new threats proves you weren't. I haven't played a game that felt like this in at least 12y, maybe more. It felt like a CBM game, in the worst possible way.

I'm not sure if this is an insult or a complement but I'll say thank you either way. But I'll reiterate, the way I played sub optimally this game was in deciding to fight Ys. That doesn't mean that the way I conducted that war was an attempt to play sub optimally.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
I'd also add that you were VERY capable of stepping up your conquest. All you'd've had to do was deploy 3-5 thugs or 2-3 SCs at once instead of counting coup by killing off armies with single unsupported mages (this self-imposed handicap seemed odd, but makes more sense since you've now stated you wanted to use this game as thugging practice). You also could have engaged in any sort of raiding or other warfare short of conquest to cripple my economy, yet you didn't - you sat back and turtled until you could curbstomp me at no risk to yourself.

I made the determination that sending out heavily geared extremely expensive thugs to far away lands where they were liable to be slain to temporarily raid provinces that I didn't have the capability to keep to not be worthwhile. The end of the war between us would be when I knocked over your capital, raiding your provinces really wouldn't speed that process up, and it was a slow enough process that I didn't want to get in a raiding war in your lands. If you were a land nation I think I would have raided you much more extensively, but as it was it just really wasn't worthwhile for me to do much raiding. You might have noticed how I had a Sahir die a really ignoble death underwater at one point, which was one of the few provinces of yours I tried to raid underwater.

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
Again: it's hard to conclude you weren't toying with us, and that you weren't doing so very knowingly and intentionally - especially since you're also insisting that you were playing sub-optimally. Those two claims are at odds with each other. It looks A LOT like you imposed a specific handicap on yourself, and then min-maxed to a T within the constraint that all heavy lifting would be done by thugs.

Well, yes, I played to the best of my abilities within the constraint of fighting you. The constraint wasn't to use thugs though (although I did enjoy using them). It's simply that no one offered situations where other solutions were required. You only attacked me with thugs of your own that were easy to counter thug, and the "armies" that attacked me... Well, from you they only consisted of a pile of mercenaries with no mage support, essentially no different then a mobile pd dump, of course I killed them with the equivalent of a pd raider. If you had supported them with mages that could have stopped a thug from killing them, I would have used something else. Same story with Abysia (harder for him since he was so fire magic focused of course which isn't great vs thugs made of magical fire.)

Quote from: E. Albright on May 27, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
Further: Ys would have been FAR easier to counter than Na'Ba. Na'Ba has out-of-the-box ethereal glamoured flying stealthy MR18 shock/fire-res F3A3E1?1 full-slot giants (which I feel comfortable calling supercombatants in the old sense of the word), and recruit-anywhere glamoured stealthy MR17 fire-res F2A2E1?1 full-slot giants. The only weakness Na'Ba has is that its elites have iron and/or salt vulnerability, and that's not much of a vulnerability. Ys has shortcomings galore: ridiculously cap-centric, with much weaker mages who cost roughly as much (plus a lot of resources underwater and no stealth + low magic paths on cav), low magic diversity, outright bad outlying forts, mediocre nat'l troops that cost a lot of resources for EA-tech gear in MA (but can only be found UW or on coasts), spellsong to slow down their best mages, etc. It's also notable that Ys cannot cloud trapeze out of its capital or any of its UW forts, which would make the kind of instant-retaliation shenanigans you used to flatten every army you faced (and almost every raider) significantly more difficult to do turn after turn after turn. Not impossible, ofc, but far more difficult.

And that's not even the strong part of Na'ba! What about high magic diversity via summons and a decent path for blood boot strapping leading to a super broken blood summon (even by the standards of national blood summons)!

But really, yes, you can talk about Na'bas strength and Ys weaknesses. I'd disagree on some points (Well, I don't know what you mean by "the old sense" of supercombatants, but I wouldn't say they are good ones. And I think spell singer is generally a positive trait.). And I could do the reverse. But let me ask you seriously, do you not think that Ys is a top tier nation? At or near the same level as Na'ba? People aren't going to agree on everything, and that's fine, but I do think that is the case. If you disagree that's fine, but I don't think I'm going to agree with you, so sorta a pointless conversation, and probably makes all the other conversations key'd off it pointless as well. Like my opinion on your situation, my opinion on your early diplomacy, my opinion on the hypocrisy of calling someone out for playing a strong nation when you're playing Ys on Valanis. All these thoughts that I've said on these topics only make sense if you think of Ys as a very strong nation, if you don't, and we can't agree on that, then we'll never agree on those areas.

Edit: It's late and this took me a long time to make, so I might have missed stuff, if there's something you wanted me to reply too or acknowledge but I didn't feel free to point it out.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: EuchreJack on May 28, 2022, 08:30:12 am
Sounds like there are several unresolved issues in this peace treaty.

Care for a rematch?

I've been having fun with EA Lanka.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 29, 2022, 11:15:42 am
Hey, I'm down for an EA game myself. As long as people promise not to pick Ubar. After trying them in SP I find them too much of a meme.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: MCreeper on May 29, 2022, 09:46:25 pm
I'll pass. Not so much because of situation of still dubious stability, as much as because i don't wanna.   :P
This match may have reinforced my opinion, that if someone says something about "diplomacy is the most important skill in the game" before the game, then you need to kill him first no matter what, because otherwise everyone WILL give him the game. Though i wasn't there to see it and am not very eager to read you all's detailing text walls.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 30, 2022, 04:24:16 am
Maybe some other time then. Probably for the best, too.

As for diplomacy. You know. The only thing that stops a guy who thinks diplomacy is the most important skill in the game is another guy who thinks diplomacy is the most important skill in the game. :P
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Karlito on May 30, 2022, 03:48:46 pm
Haven't played Dominions in well over a year, but I'd have more time for a match now :D.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 15, 2022, 04:40:25 am
I got no skills, but would enjoy joining a future game.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Azthor on June 16, 2022, 10:54:07 pm
I'd be up for a match as well.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: EuchreJack on June 17, 2022, 08:41:33 am
Hm, somebodynot me should create a new thread for sign ups.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Azthor on June 17, 2022, 11:04:57 am
Quote from: EuchreJack on June 17, 2022, 08:41:33 am
Hm, somebodynot me should create a new thread for sign ups.

Unfortunately, I thoroughly lack the time to be in charge of it; I felt it'd be in bad taste to create the thread yet be unwilling to take on the responsibility of 'hosting' the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Duuvian on June 19, 2022, 10:38:28 am
I might be able to join the next one. I practiced with my EA nation when someone said EA game, also good with an LA nation, haven't practiced much with MA but could refresh in single player. I've mostly done single player very long research games on big maps with all the nations, so not very much MP in my past other than one game here in Dom3.
Title: Re: Dominions 5 Round 05 - Finished, Na'Ba victorious
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 20, 2022, 04:39:30 am
New game here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180009.0