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Other Projects => Other Games => Play With Your Buddies => Topic started by: Il Palazzo on August 24, 2022, 02:03:08 pm

Title: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 24, 2022, 02:03:08 pm
E.Albright and I are playing a PBEM duel in Shadow Empire.
This thread is for whatever purpose we might think of as we play. Maybe there'll be some (outdated, surely) AARs, maybe some banter, maybe some maps, maybe some propaganda and fake news. Maybe nothing. We'll see how it goes. It's a first PBEM in this game for both of us, so we'll see what's feasible and what we feel like doing.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 24, 2022, 02:25:45 pm
I'm setting down enough information to do comprehensive AARs. Dunno if I'll persist; it's taking longer some turns to take notes than it is to take turns, and that's *before* I convert the notes to narratives. We're only a year in (7 seasons to the year) so it'll be a while before I'd be comfortable posting detailed accounts of my travails in any case, though.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on August 24, 2022, 02:30:40 pm
Well, show us your planet generation at least!
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 24, 2022, 04:03:38 pm
Spoiler: Summary (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Planet Stats (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Farming Details (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Planetology (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Geology (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Biosphere (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Nasty little beasties (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Colonization (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Dissolution (click to show/hide)

The displayed part of the last report doesn't particularly suggest it, so it might just be that we both got really !LUCKY!, but there's a lot of radiation around both of us.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 24, 2022, 05:08:22 pm
For my part, I've made this wonderful map of Hoboken as it looked at the beginning of its titanic struggle against the evil Galactic Empire Republic:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 24, 2022, 05:13:36 pm
My neighborhood is pretty similar except the crocodogs are made out of metal. Well, okay, they're more like emus, but with light autocannons.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 24, 2022, 05:39:51 pm
Oh, there is more than just crocodogs in Austrelia. So far we've met sneks, pigs, frogs, cows, and kangaroos. Some of them are pink, and all are terribly fond of biting our heads off.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on August 24, 2022, 07:07:03 pm
Bet they taste great though!

(I actually hate how the aliens being edible fills the map with neolitic hunter civs. Bro, how are you hunting anything without a main battle tank?)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on August 24, 2022, 08:02:55 pm
Bet they taste great though!

(I actually hate how the aliens being edible fills the map with neolitic hunter civs. Bro, how are you hunting anything without a main battle tank?)
Quantity has a quality all it's own...

Glad to see this! Both combatants are nobles of the highest order for doing this.

I love how the Planet is described as "An Arid Planet with minimal surface water" when it has more rainfall than the US.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 25, 2022, 06:25:39 am
And now there's spiders too!

Hey, E.A. I hope you're not smashing through those walkers on your side too rapidly. Because in Hoboken things are very... incremental.


BTW, the game sure could remember my UI settings, instead of resetting them each time I load my turn.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 25, 2022, 10:18:30 am
Oh, fear not. While the trans-emuists are the only non-humans we've met, as year 2 comes to a close we've killed 30 of them. That's 3 whole 10-member cyberemu chain-marriages. The only reason we've done that well is b/c we learned from our ancestors' mistakes millennia ago in the first great Emu War and mounted anti-tank guns on trucks instead of machine guns. In return, they've killed somewhere between 1500-2500 of us, and two BDE commanders.

And lest you worry that irradiated post-emu cybernetic murder-machines are all that are troubling us, we're literally at war with every one of our neighbors, who are a sloppy mix of raiders, slavers, rebels, and presumably feather-suited emu-fancier perverts. Wemus?

On an unrelated note, we rapidly approach the end of an epoch. While our first age was unabashedly positive, I have a hideous vision of it being followed up with an era of mistrust or somesuch...

[Edit: oh, lovely. The new epoch is gonna be a Crisis of Passion, so 13 turns of unrest events. It's not the worst one out there, but it's certainly not good.]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on August 25, 2022, 08:26:44 pm
Could this (https://youtu.be/Ums7T5A_blg) be the ancestor to the cyberemu?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 26, 2022, 03:32:40 pm
Today. We Dine. On Kangaroo!


Damn, there not being any other major regimes than the two of us really kills the market. Or maybe it's the latest patches.

Also, fucken hell, never ending radiation.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2022, 12:32:20 am
It's the latest patches. Merchants are a lot less inclined to buy stuff they can't sell, and don't even want to build up stockpiles of it.

I will say the fact that I'm at war with humans on every side of me (b/c tonight we break our teeth trying to dine on robotic bipeds' drumsticks) has meant that I've been able to sell stuff in the market regularly. Ofc, I've also desperately had to.

Also, yeah, the radiation is wild. The apocalypse we rolled up really didn't suggest we'd be seeing this much of it, or that it'd be this heavy where it's at.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 27, 2022, 05:41:23 am
I think the issue is that the traders can't sell much of anything, because there's only the two of us who are buying - but we're desperate to sell to prop up the budget. The prices keep going down until the traders stop buying altogether, and never (?) rebound.
I'm thinking more majors would occasionally take the stock out of their hands. If the minors are buying anything at all, it's just the low-level stuff.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2022, 06:39:46 am
IDK, I'm seeing prices rebound. The merchants seem normal to me... but I've got over a hundred turns of play in across a few games since the patch that made merchants fussier, so I may not have the same expectations as you.

Are you varying what you sell and trying to take a few months off for demand to pick back up?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 27, 2022, 07:00:20 am
It's certainly possible that I'm just used to faster rebounds.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on August 27, 2022, 07:28:19 am
I think the lack of a third major is definitely hurting both of your ability to sell.

I'm also intrigued by the level of radiation in your game.  In most games, radiation levels are so low they hardly matter much.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on August 27, 2022, 12:35:40 pm
I notice the main dissolution blurb says "To make things worse nuclear fallout claimed the lives of many". I guess maybe that's just a general high radiation property rather than it being tied to a specific event? Radiation actually mattering does seem like a fun obstacle.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2022, 01:14:08 pm
It sorta matters. Like, it's very much a terrain feature. When my forces were being slaughtered by dromoid war machines in the Azona Exclusion Zone (yes, "Azona" - our ancestors were not creative), they also were facing heavy morale penalties from how irradiated they were. OTOH, now that we've finally ended the emu threat to humanity and are facing their human former neighbors (who are led by mysterious tall, heavyset robed people who wear caked-on makeup and whose knees seem to pop, creak, and clank with every step), radiation is mostly a non-issue. Now, if they managed to push the front back 2 or 3 hexes, we'd be right back in it with 300-400 rads being the norm, but I wanna say most of the front is rad-free at this point. So while we have big, strong radiation pockets, it's not like we rolled a solar flare where every the background radiation for a "normal" hex is ~100r. Lot more zones with those pockets than I expected, tho...

[Sidenote: I wouldn't know it from looking at their stats, but I'm beginning to think I'd benefit from taking my Model Design director out and shooting them. Always nice when you start with a really bad model, yet somehow manage to design a replacement that's even worse. Well, except for the engine. -20% move penalty is a dream compared to the original's -60%...]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 27, 2022, 02:04:15 pm
In our neck of the woods, there's only one city with no radiation on its hex - and that's one of my starting ones. A true haven of calm. The rest that I can see are all ~50 to ~300 rads. The vast austrelien lands are so toxic, it's not really feasible to conquer them for now, even as we murder the crockodogs and friends, as the infantry starts to melt after a while and we can't afford enough vehicles to secure it unsupported. The narrow causeways on approach to enemy cities are all glowing with all the colours of the radioactive rainbow. The pockets that I see are pockets >without< radiation.
Probably why the terrible Galactic Empire (we know what you are) has TWICE the area under its control. Outrageous!
This is all terribly unfair and that's why we need YOUR support! Send donations to our Patreon at GalacticEmpireIsADoodoo. Also like and subscribe, and hit that bell button.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2022, 02:11:25 pm
Hmph. Calling us a doodoo? That's slander. We're dodos, dammitt! Um, I mean, we're definitely humans, and the whole emu thing is very sincere and not a misdirection.

(Also, yeah, our capital is the only rad-free city we've seen. Rest are 50 - 250. The Exclusion Zone we pushed through was deemed exclusionary b/c it mostly ranged 300-to-not-quite-500 rads. Now, we DO have vast swathes of radiation-free land - it's just inaccessible and mostly empty...)

[Edit: OUCH. Just got an adventurers event. Half of them were dead before I ever saw them b/c they found a geyser turbine that's sitting in a 1288 rad hex. If they run for our borders like their lives depend on it (spoilers: they do), they can make it all the way back to a nice, safe, gentle 972r hex. It looks like there's a band at least 24 hexes tall and 6-12 wide in that direction that's all angry purple 1000r+. I take it all back, this may be the single most irradiated planet I've ever played on.]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 27, 2022, 02:32:48 pm
Well, mine spawned in spidey land, and had a reasonable chance of getting home with modest, maybe 50%, losses. But then I forgot to move them and now they're all dead.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 27, 2022, 05:15:18 pm
For the entertainment of the peanut gallery, a partial bestiary of Vozoso Teritia. I've seen far, far worse, but some of these are looking pretty annoying, and I'm sure there's a few cuties I haven't run into yet.

Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: King Zultan on August 28, 2022, 02:50:36 am
I don't know much about this game but I'll PTW anyway.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 28, 2022, 12:42:16 pm
Bloody hell, I thought the aforementioned structural design 83 was the worst I was going to see from my "design" council. I am, alas, an optimist.

(https://i.imgur.com/ojhyqeQ.png)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 28, 2022, 01:52:45 pm
I can assure you, all our models have 130 structural design. I'm sure in no time we will get to 131 even!
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Knave on August 28, 2022, 03:23:33 pm
Bloody hell, I thought the aforementioned structural design 83 was the worst I was going to see from my "design" council. I am, alas, an optimist.

(https://i.imgur.com/ojhyqeQ.png)

I see your colonists subscribe to a very WW2 Italian style of design!  :P
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 29, 2022, 04:48:59 am
Oh my lord. Critical failure. Danger +72. And it wasn't exactly 0 beforehand either.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 02:48:02 pm
If it makes you feel better, I had a critical failure this turn that gave me +40 danger and cost me 4k population
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 29, 2022, 04:45:38 pm
4k? I've lost 30k across two events these past few turns. It's like you're not even trying :P
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 05:51:01 pm
Oh, trust me, I am. I have a sneaking suspicion I committed suicide on turn 35 and my body (politic) just hasn't noticed yet.

ICU, BTW...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 29, 2022, 06:38:07 pm
You know, not having played this in MP before, I'm a bit worried. That we'll spend 100 turns conquering indies, only to finally clash and immediately find out one of us is hopelessly behind the other and the eventual victory is a foregone conclusion.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 07:04:21 pm
It's possible. Even if we have rough tech parity, the random discovery part of the tech system means one of us could get unlucky and just not be able to compete with the other. I've had games where I lacked some random important tech around turn 60 or 80 and was comparatively crude because of it - although starting at tech 4 makes that much less of a risk. The tech 3 games where I've had infantry running around with Gauss rifles and heavy armor but don't have any power plants or solar power were just not fun.

(The more common "No Heavy Industry for you!" games can still hit us here, though.)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 29, 2022, 07:15:39 pm
(The more common "No Heavy Industry for you!" games can still hit us here, though.)
You don't say.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 07:55:52 pm
It's too early for either of us to be complaining we're suffering that plague, not properly. Now, if and when one of us has High Tech Industry but not Heavy, THEN we'll know we've arrived.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 09:23:47 pm
On a positive note, it appears I'm not going to die of my own hubris, though not for lack of trying. It would have been embarrassing if you'd've won b/c I got greedy, played a Rebellion card, and had the resulting 10-15k rebels in my capital zone destroy me. Especially since I immediately burnt through the Fate Points I got from it on such fine purchases as a Sentinel to help defend me against said rebels (which was killed immediately) and an Archive stratagem that gave me the leet, game-breaking tech of Power Banks...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 29, 2022, 09:42:18 pm
I feel you, man. My Archive gave me Volcanic Energy Tapping. Tell me if you ever see a volcano.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2022, 10:13:46 pm
I've see one whole volcano, and it's so far from anything that I shudder at the thought of how much administrative strain it'd require to tap it.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 30, 2022, 12:56:16 pm
I have to say, I completely don't understand the economy. I thought I did. Roughly, vaguely, approximately, words like that. But these past three turns (at least) I've been receiving income from 'forced sales' of water. Like, 1-2k per turn. Who's buying all this water? On this water-heavy world? Why now and not earlier? Is it going to continue? Are you getting this as well? I've seen this in earlier games when my food stocks would hit the ceiling, but it was at best modest.
It kinda solved all my monetary problems, and feels like an exploit I'm unwittingly using.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on August 30, 2022, 02:47:05 pm
This is quite hilarious to read.

Best Bronemies Brawl.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 30, 2022, 08:16:28 pm
Why now and not earlier? Is it going to continue? Are you getting this as well?

Given that this coincides with your big jumps in territory the last several turns, I'd assume you suddenly abut some zones where the merchants are willing to buy water. There are definitely some very dry parts of the planet. I haven't enjoyed any such windfalls - waterfalls? - myself, but I will say that I also didn't have the woes you did with price recovery after hocking various things. I've never had a market for water, though.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 31, 2022, 07:05:37 am
While there might be some correlation with territorial gains, it still feels like a bug. 3.5k in sales this turn.

Speaking of territorial gains, looks like I've started snowballing, and we're getting closer to confrontation (hello, protectorate), while you appear to still be stuck with your starting cities - judging by the population. Do you think you can catch up with vengeance any time soon, or should we maybe start considering this a dud of a test run, what with the (imo) game-breaking bug and all.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on August 31, 2022, 09:10:58 am
Water suddenly having a price has often been the savior of my economy as well.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 31, 2022, 11:00:59 am
For now, I'm willing to keep going, but I'm suspicious that you're right it may be doomed to duddom.

I'm more concerned by the water sales than I am by the pop disparity - though I am concerned by both. I've actually been at 3 cities for the past 23 turns, but to capture that third city I destroyed all its private infrastructure and killed 60-100k population, so it didn't really show up in the victory numbers. The main reason I'm languishing is the rebellion I brought upon myself - it put me back 10 turns when I was closing in on both of my other two starting neighbors, and tied up 1-3 BDEs for that entire period when they should have been cracking those cities. However, when my spies looked at your capital, what I saw suggested I have a slight tech edge and a slightly more significant infrastructure edge. That suggests I have a narrow window to catch up WRT population and cities, and I am verging on assaulting the two cities I would have liked to have captured 4-8 turns ago. If they fall smoothly (and my tech has improved over those 10 turns, so they might) there's a third that could also fall quickly, so I'm not out of it yet.

The money for nothing, OTOH, sounds a bit more insurmountable. Based on what you said here and in your bug report, it does sound like a bug. If I had to guess, I'd say that a zone you just captured/annexed/whatever is for some reason not collecting water itself like it should (hence why it just started on turn 40), so its private economy buys up whatever water you have on hand. If that's the case, you'll keep getting that cash indefinitely, and that'd be game breaking. If you could, I'd say to have a look at the zone-by-zone economy and trade reports - there's almost certainly information about exactly where that water is going and hence where the money is coming from. The amount of information this game gives you access to is kinda ridiculous.

[Edit: Okay, my blitz-sieges this turn worked. I'm at 5 cities. The water issue may make this untenable, but I've probably counter-snowballed enough that there's some value in keeping going.]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 31, 2022, 01:57:09 pm
Yeah, that's more like it.
(https://i.imgur.com/RQsaZTn.png)
This might be normal, come to think of it. After all, ten-fifteen turns is all it took for me to get ahead. Such delays in catching up might be expected.

FWIW, I've bee trying not to spend that money. It just sits there.
I thought what I could do, is start counting it more carefully - record precisely how much I get from there, and make sure I never spend a dime from those ill-gotten gains; essentially running my own ledger on a side trying to balance the income and expenses.
However, turns out I can't do that, because the traders get completely broke buying all that water, so I can't sell them anything to virtually prop up my economy.
But then again, my non-bugged cashflow is negative 200-ish, so normally that'd just mean I have to sell a couple hundred rare metals every half a dozen turns or so - and I have those aplenty.
So, I'm thinking, as long as I don't run out of both cash and the resources I'd be trading away normally, the game doesn't really suffer any foul play.
And who knows, maybe if we conquer some more indies, it'll stop for the lack of buyers.

I say let's keep chugging along and see how it goes. I certainly don't feel cocky with my extended lines and first signs of bottlenecking.


BTW, I wonder if your protectorate can declare war on me, and if that'd result in them joining you as if they were attacked. Or if I can keep cheesing it with claiming their territory unopposed.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 31, 2022, 02:59:33 pm
FWIW, with my acquisition of two more zones (one very coastal; one with no coast, rivers, or swamps - but then my 3rd city also was like that, albeit with no private economy left) I force-sold just under 6k water this turn for ~1k credits. I have ~800cr positive income beyond that, so I don't really need to spend it either. We should probably either decide to ignore the ill-gotten gains, or spend them, though. I really think there's some zones that are buggily demanding water despite its ubiquity and as soon as we touched them, we started selling. My traders still have ~8k cash-on-hand, so I can definitely sell stuff to them w/o priming them by buying stuff first.

I can't recall if protectorates join if they're the ones who declare war, but I suspect they do.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 31, 2022, 06:50:24 pm
...and for the record, I'm back to having my excess water lost instead of sold. So IDK what's going on there.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on August 31, 2022, 07:43:35 pm
Yummy yummy water in my tummy
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 31, 2022, 08:07:24 pm
I see another city has fallen prey to the evil wiles of the Galactic Republic.

And those vassals, protectorates everywhere. And I thought I was being adventurous with trying to peacefully annex a raider minor.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on August 31, 2022, 09:38:17 pm
I don't see why you're making this sound so insidious. We just patiently explained to them that they could set up a schedule to resume paying taxes to the Sector government and prepare to rejoin civilization as member-districts in the Planetary government, and if they did there wouldn't be any teams of Mobile Emergency Retained Document Examination auditors coming to visit them.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 01, 2022, 06:22:27 am
We just patiently explained to them that they could set up a schedule to resume paying taxes to the Sector government and prepare to rejoin civilization as member-districts in the Planetary government
Thou art a bunch of poo-flinging progeny of swimmer frogs and migrator hammerheads masquerading as the revived corpse of bygone oppressors. Fie upon thee! The League of Hoboken declares war upon your unholy nation. May your improvised weaponry chip and shatter.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 01, 2022, 08:45:36 am
Oh, we've seen the freedom your hobo-kin would offer the people of this Sector. The freedom for a poor fisher mourning their 8 children being devoured by the ternitetrapod who capsized their crude dingy to decide whether they want to celebrate their lives by purchasing 100 jugs of Hobo2O or merely 80 from the smirking "salesmen" with shotguns who descend like jackals to "pay their respects".

(On an entirely unrelated note, after two months of no sales at all, GR-8 Bottled Water managed to move 1.5kcr of product this month. I don't have any clue at all what's deciding when there's a market for the stuff. It might be seasonal, but even then I don't know what is triggering the demand in the seasons where there is demand.)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 01, 2022, 01:05:10 pm
And here I thought we were about to clash. That the protectorate was on your border. Only now I can see that there is actually quite a bit of... interesting non-aligned land between us still. Crazy mountains to the south, vast jungles to the north, and a narrow stretch of flat land with a healthy 1000 rad glow most everywhere.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 01, 2022, 03:00:57 pm
I don't see why you're making this sound so insidious. We just patiently explained to them that they could set up a schedule to resume paying taxes to the Sector government and prepare to rejoin civilization as member-districts in the Planetary government, and if they did there wouldn't be any teams of Mobile Emergency Retained Document Examination auditors coming to visit them.
We just patiently explained to them that they could set up a schedule to resume paying taxes to the Sector government and prepare to rejoin civilization as member-districts in the Planetary government
Thou art a bunch of poo-flinging progeny of swimmer frogs and migrator hammerheads masquerading as the revived corpse of bygone oppressors. Fie upon thee! The League of Hoboken declares war upon your unholy nation. May your improvised weaponry chip and shatter.

This is actually quite clever, since "Mobile Emergency Retained Document Examination" acronym is MERDE, which is French for "shit!"
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 01, 2022, 03:34:06 pm
And here I thought we were about to clash. That the protectorate was on your border.

Yes, my clever plan was that when you encroached on their land, Blackbond would grow furious and declare war on you, at which point I could set up a little SHQ and sandbag your expansion for a while. Instead, the naive morons let you completely surround all their troops and city before they ever even thought to question your motives, and so 15k simpletons died to kill a whole 100 hobos.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 01, 2022, 05:42:21 pm
FWIW, my watery Ponzi scheme seems to be drying up. The last couple turns was 300 and 100 income. Maybe it was your erstwhile protectorate that was buying all that stock? They certainly are in a dry spot. Where would they take all that money from, though, is another matter.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 01, 2022, 07:26:09 pm
That honestly makes too much sense given how utterly random my own water profiteering has been. 45-ish turns off, 1 turn on, 2 turns off, 1 turn on, 2 or 3 more turns off...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 02, 2022, 04:54:17 am
The map is a tad too large for a duel, don't you think?

Also, I'm back to 1.5k in H2O sales.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 02, 2022, 11:11:17 am
I wanna say the size ended up being the largest medium size possible, which is the smallest large size. All the mountains and radiation also don't help. This is more of a 1v1 match than a 1v1 duel. Admittedly, that means we actually might use tech on each other instead of deciding everything with assault rifles and cannons, which is what even a tech 5 duel probably would be.

[Easier Logistics would speed things up a lot too]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 02, 2022, 03:14:55 pm
Dear lord, we're gonna end up with a frontline through those mountains, aren't we.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 02, 2022, 03:25:31 pm
It IS looking that way, yeah. That, or on the radiation plain. Possibly both.

[2k H20 sales this turn. Neither rhyme nor reason...]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 03, 2022, 04:13:21 pm
Aw, shit. I better step up my aviation game.
So far the only thing I've managed to design with a range greater than 1-3 hexes is a small helicopter. Every now and then I try my hand at planes, but then I just give up after maybe half a dozen attempts.

Or, I could stock up on AAs, I guess.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 03, 2022, 05:17:07 pm
The atmosphere/gravity for this planet is actually pretty friendly to aircraft. The ineffectual things I've been buzzing around you aren't anything special; I've got some modest linear research behind them but I'll tip my hand and confess they're still using basic propeller engines, and you can see the range I'm nursing out of them. You probably have the tech to make something with a useful range if you twiddle some features back and forth.

[Oh, and I discarded 19k units of water this turn, but my merchants wanted to buy up to 14k units. The whole water market thing makes no sense at all.]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 04, 2022, 02:19:26 pm
Oh, great. Made an assault gun with a high velocity gun :/
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 04, 2022, 04:02:59 pm
Oh, great. Made an assault gun with a high velocity gun :/
I've had playthroughs were that made sense, primarily to fight off the wildlife.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 04, 2022, 04:14:32 pm
That's not great, but it could be worse. It'll still work as an anti-armor defensive tank. The next version can have the right kind of gun. The kind of mistakes my designers make tend to require full redesigns.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 04, 2022, 07:49:25 pm
I don't remember off the top of my head the specifics of the mechanics assault guns are subject to. But the modifiers must be significant, because the stats of that AG are terribad despite a on-paper good AT gun.

Anyhow, looks like you're running a tight ship. I'm behind in key military tech despite having a larger economy. I though it's maybe because you pushed for a mind profile and its associated bonuses. But no, you're going to kill me with kindness, apparently.
Seriously, why heart? I've always seen it as inferior to the other two. What's the thinking here?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 04, 2022, 08:43:06 pm
Re: assault guns, the manual says it gets -50% to hard attack for being turretless, and hard defense -33% for being a vehicle with a cannon. Those should be the only modifiers; it should be roughly as good as a medium tank for hard defense. That'll be its only high point, though.

Re: Heart, it's keeping the masses happy. It really comes down to what events I'm getting. I've had every profile in that category the highest for multiple turns, and it just turns out Heart was the only one that actually could make the rolls to get feats. I've got a pile of scrap cards I can play to pull me in a couple of other directions when I get some spare PP, but there's nothing pressing from any of them, or at least nothing as pressing as all the other garbage competing for PP.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2022, 08:28:41 am
I will say that I saw at least one major difference b/tw how you and I were developing our infrastructure, and it would account for a lot of why I'm more advanced technologically. There's another reason not directly linked to that or feats as well. I'm kinda reluctant to discuss either in the middle of an ongoing match, though. Both should be mostly (though not entirely) discernible through spying, although the passage of time will have obscured one of them as it's as much priorities and process as it is about the end result.

[It also really fits for the different personas adopted for our nations, come to think of it.]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 05, 2022, 10:51:56 pm
So I was going back through the first 32 turns (i.e. before you pointed out the auto-screenshot feature) and reloading them (to make start-of-turn screenshots even if there was no end-of-turn screenies available), and I came upon something else that was probably a major reason I managed to get a tech edge. My first 14 turns were an era of research, then I had 7 turns (I think?) of a crappy epoch (passion?), followed by a 26-turn (!) time of bureaucracy. Those two epochs comprising so much of my early game made a big difference. They probably balance out the utter-garbage epoch I've been "enjoying" ever since the era of bureaucracy passed...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 06, 2022, 02:55:48 am
And here I was, thinking everyone got the same Epochs.
The second Epoch is always bad.
I always thought they were balanced.

...I guess the Galactic Republic is in for a LONG Age of Rebellion, just to balance things out.  :P
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 06, 2022, 06:53:09 am
Yeah, I've also thought we both would get the same. We did with the second era, iirc. Maybe just the bad ones are common for all? I've had revolutions as the most recent. Lasted forever.

In any case, all of this again fits nicely with the 'lore' of our nations.

even if there was no end-of-turn screenies available
Doesn't it make one when you hit the end turn button?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2022, 07:10:39 am
Only if you have it on when you hit "end turn", which I didn't for the first 32 turn. I could go back and re-create the start-of-turn maps by loading the turns from your emails, but there'd be no end-of-turn maps unless I could remember what I did that turn and re-did it with largely similar outcomes. My AAR notes are nowhere near detailed enough for that.

Now that you mention revolutions, I wanna say I had revolutions after bureaucracy, but it didn't last long - maybe just 1y? I'm currently suffering through a "decade of corruption"; I'm right at the midpoint of its 37-turn span.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 06, 2022, 07:41:36 am
I see. So they're chosen independently of each player then. That we both got passion early on must have been a coincidence.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 06, 2022, 09:10:22 am
Ha! Goddam flies falling down.

Have you ever built those things from the radiation cleansing tech? Do you know how they work? I wonder if they're at all worth the effort.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2022, 01:16:21 pm
Yeah, tactical bombers probably aren't the best thing to send up against quad AA. Last month featured a number of bad decisions on my part.

Rad cleansing works well enough. I'd sorta compare it to areal spreading, but it's linear rather than binary so every turn it gets a little better. Radiation around the asset's hex gradually fades, spreading outward from the site. It'll probably take a while in some of the worse areas on this planet, but if nothing else, a city hex itself will be cleaned up entirely well before the less-important surrounding hexes get cleaned. Even then, though, the surrounding hexes will get cleaned.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 06, 2022, 08:23:24 pm
I've noticed some weird things going on. Although in all fairness these might be me misunderstanding the mechanics rather than buggy behaviour.

E.g. you know those 'more mining assets' demands? They usually get satisfied with one or two extra mines, right? I've had one for the past fifteen turns or so, and I've been building scavenger communities, metal mines, and demetalization plants all this time. But somehow I still can't reach the desired level. Even as the mining overview shows me having more assets than the target. Maybe the meaning of 'asset levels' is more nuanced than just the sum of assets?

Or, I've been scavenging on a number of artifact sites since maybe half the game. From what I understand, as per the tooltip, it netts you an artifact every X extracted resources. But all I ever got was three cards very early on in the process (too quickly, I'd even say, given how slowly lvl 1 communities work), and then nothing at all. I'm pretty sure I've scavenged almost 10k from the first site, at 1:800.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2022, 08:39:28 pm
I'm pretty sure mining demands are just a tally of mine asset levels. It seems like there are some demands that are based on average levels, but they should be clear about that.

As far as the artifact sites go, yeah, as long as there's still stuff to scavenge you should be getting it every X resources. I've been pulling junk out of some, and every few turns I get some new unimpressive trinket in the Zone, Leader, or Unit stratagem tab at about the rate I'd expect. I dunno. Had you been scavenging them prior to discovering the archeology site?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 06, 2022, 08:43:58 pm
I'm pretty sure mining demands are just a tally of mine asset levels. It seems like there are some demands that are based on average levels, but they should be clear about that.
Then I have more than the demand, and it's still not resolved.

Quote
Had you been scavenging them prior to discovering the archeology site?
No. And there's a few more I've found since then that should be bringing in junk by now.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 06, 2022, 09:31:51 pm
Most demands are "Have what you have now plus 1"
So, continuous expansion could lead to perceived or actual bug b/c you have x+1 mines being built upon the Demand triggering?

Also, you obviously can't lose mines to rebels and wildlife.
Eh, probably a bug.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 06, 2022, 10:00:06 pm
Okay, this will sound like a weird question, and I may just be projecting my own blondness here (b/c I've caught it happening with various assets of mine this game), but... have you checked to make sure the scavenging site didn't get its production rate turned down below 100%? There was a period of 6-10 turns when I was confused why my first dig site hadn't turned up more artifacts until I checked and saw it was set to 25% production, presumably b/c I had meant to slow down building when upgrading the site due to metal/IP shortages.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 06:21:45 am
Nah, they're working full time. I've just had one more artifact turn up, so I can't say they're not doing anything, I guess.

Re: mining assets; looking at the mining overview it appears scavengers don't count (but private mines do). Still, last turn it said I had 11 of the required 10. Now I've 9 because two have closed. Maybe the game needs a turn to register that it has the required number? I don't know.

In other news: that hobo panzer had 70 experience! 70! You murderer. And just when it was going to get upgraded too.

Also, I've only just noticed there I had a perfectly viable ready-made model of a fighter with ok range that I could have been using to shoot down your shittier planes all this time. :/

Q: what does air SHQ do? Just provide combat bonuses from the commander, or is there some logistics side to it like with the regular ones? Like, is there any reason to plonk it near the front lines as opposed to somewhere safe?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2022, 08:41:10 am
I'd kinda wondered about the Scavenging thing, but didn't bring it up b/c you said you had both types. But WRT the timing, yeah, it's start of turn to check that. IDK how many times I've "satisfied" a profile requirement only to fall below it before it got checked the next turn. That probably happens at least a couple times per game.

I'm assuming your base air models are ~8 hexes? That's what mine were, which is pretty solid to start with. This planet really is aircraft-friendly.

Re: Air OHQ, to the best of my knowledge proximity doesn't matter, although it might. More generally it serves as an OHQ for all the units attached, with the normal bonuses and such, but it also allows for the development of some skills that are air-command specific, and that your SHQ commander will never get or apply (Ground Attack, Air Logistics, etc.)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 04:02:25 pm
Enemy contact! Slaves to the system sighted. They appear... predictably bureaucratic. Cookie-cutter uniforms and boring names. How very Old Republic of them. Soon, they will learn that a new world disorder is in town. By 'town' we mean Boston.


Damn those raider minors. I got into my head I could annex them no sweat after the first couple semi-friendly ones joined me after just a few tries. But by now I must have wasted over two hundred political points on two others that just won't budge. How's your maths? 1d100 vs 3d100 (and equal modifiers) is the same as 1/3rd chance of success, right?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2022, 05:10:50 pm
Oh god, no, it's nowhere near that good. I'm seeing it as ~4%. You need to stack those odd more in your favor.

Look here (https://anydice.com/program/2aef5), choosing View = Table & Data = At Least, and look at the 0 line.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 05:40:02 pm
0.16 is 16%, right? 1 in 6.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2022, 06:29:08 pm
That's the normal distribution tab, so I'm pretty sure it's actually 0.16% chance to get 0 exactly. You want the "At least" tab.

(https://i.imgur.com/zapMnyA.png)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 06:36:13 pm
Alright. That was a waste of a few hundred PPs then. The modifiers matter a lot more than I though.
That calculator will prove handy, thx.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 pm
 8) I dug up that calculator a few days ago for figuring out this exact thing.

But yeah, even just adding a shadow diplomat takes it from ~4 to ~11. If you're planning on doing diplomacy, your Foreign Affairs director should look like an absolutely spoiled brat. Mine has 9 feats at this point, and keeping them happy is probably some of why I have as much Heart profile as I do.

[Ha, I was bracing myself to see you crushing my battle line b/c the initial report said I lost 1500 troops this turn. Nope, turns out a pack of Migrator Hammerheads just ate a bunch of raider militia way off in the middle of nowhere...]

Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 07:21:43 pm
Oh, mine is a chad too. Cap III only, but he's been with me since the very start. I think he's got all the char modifiers there are.
But while the previous minors had ~100 relations, these two have ~50. So that makes much more of a difference than I suspected.

ed: 'mine a chad is too' :/ It's getting late, I'm forgetting how to write coherent sentences.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on September 07, 2022, 07:53:50 pm
Q: what does air SHQ do? Just provide combat bonuses from the commander, or is there some logistics side to it like with the regular ones? Like, is there any reason to plonk it near the front lines as opposed to somewhere safe?
Re: Air OHQ, to the best of my knowledge proximity doesn't matter, although it might. More generally it serves as an OHQ for all the units attached, with the normal bonuses and such, but it also allows for the development of some skills that are air-command specific, and that your SHQ commander will never get or apply (Ground Attack, Air Logistics, etc.)

For the record, Air Units do appear to have an HQ Power stat that decreases if you move the Air HQ far away from them- which affects how strongly commander bonuses apply. This is how regular OHQs work too- I don't remember them having an effect on logistics.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 07, 2022, 07:55:03 pm
I suppose there's no harm in linking this utter tool's social media profile:

Spoiler: He's a regular Apollo (click to show/hide)

His lower capability has meant he's a lot slower to reach his potential, but 41 Charisma is respectable enough that I was willing to stick with the primadonna from turn 1 onwards. He's been slow to develop, but he's gotten to a pretty imposing level of swag.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 07, 2022, 08:07:41 pm
For the record, Air Units do appear to have an HQ Power stat that decreases if you move the Air HQ far away from them- which affects how strongly commander bonuses apply. This is how regular OHQs work too- I don't remember them having an effect on logistics.
Yeah, makes sense. That question was again me not doing my due diligence in checking the basics. See, I thought Air OHQs were actually Air SHQs.

I suppose there's no harm in linking this utter tool's social media profile:
That's pretty much identical to my guy:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2022, 08:55:53 am

Seriously, though. Talk about underwhelming. I saw your GR nuke and was picturing a nuclear holocaust of my precious armies. But it really is a one off attack with just the stats it has listed. 900 hard and 700 soft attack is not much, really. Killed nothing, and added a measly 200 rads to the hex. On our world that's considered a healthy minimum.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2022, 01:03:44 pm
Yeah, I wasn't expecting much but I hoped for at least something. That was sad even by Hellraiser standards. Your hulking, lumbering mutant infantry probably mistook it for an express-delivered care package full of extra spicy bonbons.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2022, 03:49:01 pm
Heavy battledress already? And here I was happy with finally rolling out heavy combat armour.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2022, 04:08:06 pm
So funny story. My corp has been nagging me to give them 50-60PP so they can share a technology for like 10-15 turns now. It got to the point where I had 3 of them stacked up. So finally three turns ago I go ahead and play one. Mining Robotization. Okay, not terrible (I've got some trash techs I skipped that I dreaded seeing pop up), but it's not gonna make a real difference. Next turn, you start pushing me back with your hobmobs, and I'm feeling a bit more desperate, so I play an extra PP stratagem to be able to use the second one. And here we are.

I've had mixed luck with free tech this game - I was super-excited to get Demetalization early, but it ended up being a dud b/c I didn't have the machines or high-tech to actually build them. Power banks we already discussed. My third Archive strat gave me Jetpacks - not bad per se, but not really great and quite expensive. My corp gave me two free discoveries as well, and I got fairly lucky to get linear techs with them so they were instantly useful, but they weren't linear techs I actually needed - I only got personal armor and small arms optimization recently, which is why your troops tower like titans over my higher-tech ones. I want to use my corp's last free completed tech card, but at this point, I'm sorta afraid I'll be paying 60PP for Gas-Powered Small Arms, Methane Synthesis, Volcano Tapping, etc. I'm certainly due for some karmic payback with my tech RNG. OTOH, the chance it'll give me something I can actually use to keep from being overrun is probably too important for me to say no to, even if it means some hard PP tradeoffs...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2022, 04:20:45 pm
Damn, corps can give such nice boons? Should have kept them happier.

As good as my applied science sensei is at making ok troops better than ok, grinding 1.7k hitpoints on every infantryman is going to be a different story.

ed: and here I was wondering why my shitty fighters don't even try to die in some dogfights with ostensibly better planes. Turns out one needs to hit 'update' after setting the intercept readiness. :/
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2022, 09:43:39 pm
I think the outcome of this war is already clear, though my desperate scrabble to get parity via tech may at least drag it out for long enough that it's interesting. Or maybe not; quantity has its own quality, and you've definitely got that on me, probably by an order of magnitude.

I'm suspicious that the rebellion I played way back on turn 35 really was what will ultimately kill me - that 10-turn delay chasing rebels around my capital instead of getting 3 more cities is probably the difference b/tw me being prepared to repulse your offense when it came out of the mountains, and the current grim comedy we're seeing. And if that didn't do it, my catastrophic logistics error on turn 66 that made me lose 15-20k troops to starvation over the next two turns is also a pretty good candidate for a death blow, even if I'm still stubbornly stumbling along...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 08, 2022, 09:50:21 pm
Yeah, I've been thinking this might be not enough of an equal match to keep it fun. Let me know if you want to call the game dead on arrival and start deliberating over the corpse.
In any case, I'm done for tonight.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 08, 2022, 10:10:36 pm
We can do a few more turns, certainly. If nothing else, I do want to see if the final gift from Zimmer Corps is actually enough to even slow down the hobo train. Pretty sure it's too little, too late. Probably the only thing they could have given me that'd've actually changed the outcome of the war would have been ICBM tech, and this wasn't that.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 08, 2022, 11:13:34 pm
I had a game where I thought that I was going to utterly crush my enemy. And I did, for a time. Then one of their infantry units had Combat Armor, and I didn't even have Padded Environmental Suits. There was literally nothing I could do to that unit.

Granted, this was a small lunar moon, and we both only had basically one city, and it was much earlier. But tech properly applied can be quite powerful.

... it's also reasonably easy to trade bodies and land for time in this game. Even absolute garbage units usually take a whole turn to eliminate, and usually something survives to hold land next turn. But I'm no colossus like you folks.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2022, 06:55:33 am
Tech disparity can help, sure. But we're sort of already towards the best possible advantage for the defender - personal armour-wise at least. It's definitely harder to find weak spots in the line with every turn. But they're there, because there's only so many good-tech troops one can afford with a given economy (and the shittier, cheaper troops are not really worth the expense). I have been enjoying better economy, which leads to better economy, which lets me afford more of everything.

Still, I think the best advantage I'm leveraging here is the +65% from fanaticism. Possibly its various attack-improving unit feats too. The combat results are decidedly one-sided, despite often similar stats.
While I haven't closed, let alone rolled up a single pocket yet, coping with replacements from the sheer combat attrition must be taking its toll on EA's industrial capacity.

This is the first game I've ever managed to get fist profile that high, too.

Btw, boy do those offensives suck up supplies.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2022, 12:13:03 pm
Yup. The big problem is that to get one subunit of HBD troops, I have to spend 2 machines - that's the exact industrial bottleneck. There's also some straight-up logistic bottlenecks where I made the mistake of doing a recruiting stratagem somewhere where only a trickle of the troops recruited can make it to my SHQ - if I'd've sucked it up and done it in my capital, having an extra 30k troops on hand would have made a big difference instead of the current trickle I'm getting from distant parts.

As you imply above, what it's coming down to is really the stereotypical thing for a high-tech power fighting a motivated lower-tech opponent: every casualty is hugely painful for me, and every tiny mistake I make is multiplied many times over. Forex, I'm currently kicking myself for wasting 2 turns researching missiles - I'm suspicious I'll never actually deploy any at this rate, and getting my research goal after them 2 turns later will very possibly be a matter of literal life or death for my regime.

I think this screenshot demonstrates the desperation of my position nicely:
(https://i.imgur.com/nexk2Oe.png)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 10, 2022, 08:04:14 am
Welp. Soon there won't be much left worth defending in Gapwhite - bunker or no bunker.

Also:
Spoiler: oof (click to show/hide)
I think I have some tanks like that.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2022, 12:45:05 pm
That thing is 100% Zimmer Corp technology. I kinda wanna know what their five-year business plan was before we got invaded, but frankly I think I'll sleep better at night not knowing.

[Actually, I think I've got it, since the third tech they gave me was robotic mining. They were actively planning to dig too deep...]
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 10, 2022, 04:17:16 pm
Oh my dear lord. I went and done it. I attacked the nukezookillas. Those losses are not going to be sustainable. Or are they? I'm definitely channelling the Soviet spirit here.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2022, 06:22:20 pm
...I don't like those casualties numbers any more than you, though I definitely like them more than last turn's. OTOH, if we're on the subject of things you won't like, I got my new anti-tank guns:


I also got the tech that I was whining that I shouldn't have studied Missiles to get sooner, but that still needs prototyped before I can deploy it.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 10, 2022, 06:23:51 pm
WE WILL OVERCOME
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2022, 06:29:25 pm
For perspective, and mostly for the benefit of any peanut gallery that might exist, these are the prior models. It kinda underscores how badly we've been neglecting a number of our units WRT modernization.


(and OF COURSE my screenshot includes a tooltip. Well, at least it's not covering anything...)
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 10, 2022, 06:35:20 pm
Hey, I think my AT guns are still like that one in the first row. They've been similarly waiting forever to be upgraded.
Yup. Starting design still.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2022, 08:35:47 pm
The main reason I had the second row is b/c when fighting minors/AI majors I've had a fair amount of success with customizing independent mechanized AT units with RPGs, so I had one of those as a very active unit that wanted better kit. The latest beta's changes to AT guns only make that more attractive, though ofc they're still primarily defensive units.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 11, 2022, 06:37:10 am
Water still goes for ~0.6 per unit on the market. Do you need fuel? Do you need machines? Buy all the stock, make it up with infinite water.  ::)


How's your fighting spirit, btw? From where I'm standing, your technological marvels have made it a hell lot more interesting. The sheer weight of my hordes might still prevail.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2022, 11:26:08 am
I wish water sold for that much for me. When it sells, it's more in the 0.2-0.3 range, so the merchants hit their saturation point a lot faster.

This coming turn will be the one where I roll out laser rifles, so we'll see how that changes things. I should probably have debuted them at least 10 turns ago; I discovered the tech 20 turns ago but foolishly thought cluster munitions, highspeed->quad-machineguns, and missiles, in that order, were more important. I'm pretty sure I was wrong on all three counts.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 11, 2022, 11:28:06 am
Oh, well. We're rolling those out nearly at the same time then. And here I thought I'd manage to eke out a temporary advantage with those.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2022, 11:41:42 am
Ouch. Well, so much for any tech offensive edge I could hope for. Aside from the nukezookillas, ofc.

As an aside, thanks for killing off my awful starting Military Research director. Early on I sent him to be an OHQ commander as what I thought would be a swift death sentence only sped along by his general lack of talent in applied militarying, but the incompetent blighter survived at least 70 rounds in that role.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 12, 2022, 11:46:59 pm
Incompetent at all things, including dying.  :P
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 17, 2022, 06:01:06 am
I actually have my initial economic director still refusing to die on the frontlines. His happiness constantly hovers around mid-40s, but doesn't ever quite reach the rebellion levels. Over the years of fighting he's become half-decent for a Cap I dude.

The game might be wrapping up. Or maybe just slowing down considerably. We'll see.

In the meantime, considering how I'm sure by now we both have pretty much perfect enough recon on all crucial areas, I see no reason not to share the state of the map on turn 82 as seen by the League of Hoboken:
Spoiler: large image (click to show/hide)
The green supply overlay is handy here for showing controlled areas. The capital is Chronchron, on that peninsula to the right of the map.

The whole expansion can be seen in the screenshots here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZSfiMiyRDLIZU9Dfhpt0oQBxzWGwEZn-/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 18, 2022, 05:53:16 am
The front line seems to have collapsed and Gapwhite has fallen. I don't think there's much of a point in continuing, unless you have a couple fresh corps lying in wait somewhere:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even if you do manage to break through with some of these forces, I don't see a whole lot of new units appearing on the front, while I can at this stage replenish all losses and raise a new brigade with independent attachments each turn. It's just a matter of time before you get swamped.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 09:46:08 am
I agree there's little point in continuing, though I'd point out at this point I was raising a Corps a turn. It wasn't sustainable, certainly, and I didn't have the machinery to put them all in heavy battledress, but about 10 turns too late I put my recruitment on a proper wartime footing and finally fixed my earlier problems where I was running out of recruits every turn. I also should have set up a seperate SHQ in Gapwhite 2 turns earlier than I did - if I'd've even done it the turn before my final one, it would have made capturing the city a bloody affair instead of an easy mop-up operation overrunning exhausted and depleted units.

I also do wonder how quad-laser tanks would have fared on offense against your big infantry formations, but it was too little, too late at this point. Probably my best bet would have been making low-armor nuke RPG units that I could crank out en mass, but even then I'd sold off too much of my rad reserves for that to be sustainable either. The credit disparity from water sales hurt me more than I appreciated in the end.

There's a lot of things I could say, but for now I'll post my AAR and map gif. The AAR started out as a narrative and quickly degenerated into notes that could be turned into a narrative but never were. Even so, it's 8.3k words so I'll post a pastebin link for it.


The history of the rise and fall of the Republic of Ferrohead:
https://pastebin.com/rYhaVFNC
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 18, 2022, 10:04:48 am
What did you use for the gif? I had tried some first-found online services, but they don't like more than 100MB of data, and I didn't feel like resizing every image first.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 10:11:22 am
I did a batch-resize in IrfanView to cut the size of all of them in half, then a batch-convert to make them all into gifs, and that turned 136 maps into 26.6mb, which the first search result I saw (ezgif.com) handled admirably and further reduced to ~12mb with some lossy gif optimization.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 01:07:42 pm
A few general notes:

There's probably some more stuff I could say, but I've forgotten it...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 18, 2022, 02:16:26 pm
Good old IrfanView. Each time I get a new system I neglect to install it, but it inevitably proves invaluable.

I did not keep notes as I played, mostly because I had no good idea on how to organise it sensibly. But here's at least my progress with some annotations:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here's some random observations from looking at both our save files:

It looks like I had a good couple thousand+ headway in industrial capacity, even accounting for the two cities you've lost. It meant I >could< sacrifice some thousands to build the road through the mostly low, but extensive mountains. The late city gains must have hurt you here.

The infantry designs on my side, apart from being somewhat better structurally (much better in case of machineguns - I rolled 123 right off the bat), must have enjoyed the linear techs since much earlier. I went for applied science earlier, and with better budget than I normally would, because the rng gave me the sensei card from the fate pack, and the guy was too good to leave idling. Hence the high unit stats all around.

You seem to have sunk quite a bit of BPs into staff council tasks that I completely ignored. I only founded that council sometime during the final dozen turns or so, and was using them almost purely for stratagems - since I had enough to go around, each turn I'd start by giving my troops attack stratagems, and end it by switching them all to defence.
I don't know, it's possible customising formations and operationalising new ones could have paid off in the long run, but - as with everything else - time proved not to be on your side.

My cabinet was super happy all the time, yours less so. It's the first game I saw them this elated, too. This must have relatively drained some BPs from your council tasks.

I found artillery to be mostly useless unless massed - individual battalions or even a couple did not seem to do much of any damage. This seems to apply to your rockets/missiles too.
But a couple divisions of 300mm howitzers targetting a single hex were enough to punch through even your high-tech, entrenched defences. They were doing the main job in making my breakthroughs. I wonder how it would look like had you invested in numerous counter batteries rather than the battledress infantry.

The planes you've built were effective, but IMO easily countered. Sure, good flak guns are expensive as hell (1000 industry and metal per battalion here), but I only ever needed a few to cover all crucial points. And the shit fighters I built seem to have started to make short work of your better planes. Again, it looks like numbers matter a lot here - 30 planes = meh, 90 = death.

It also looks like I was churning out new SHQs much, much more rapidly. If I'm seeing this right, your final save has 4 brigades (maybe another 4 were lost in the sieges?). I had 20-ish. Around 15 when the fighting started, I think. This focus on manpower would explain the headstart with conquests. Certainly with land area.
What was your bottleneck here? Food, maybe? (I wonder how much the food bonus from meritocracy bootstrapped my army - I never once >had< to build a farm to feed the troops during the game).

The constant offensives were draining my fuel reserves something fierce. This final-turn assault alone resulted in -6k after production. At this rate I'd be looking at the bottom of the barrel in maybe three-four turns. Maybe a bit longer with extra oil drills. You holding the line for that much longer could have resulted in me losing the initiative for the foreseeable future.


And of course the water bonanza did not hurt me (but I don't think it mattered that much in the end).


All in all, it does look like you were caught fighting maybe a dozen turns before you were ready. That such a small delay in catching up can have such large consequences raises questions on how to best balance these matches. I'm thinking, more than two players might be necessary for a balanced game so that diplomacy acts as an equaliser (but then again, that'd be a slooow PBEM).


  • Overall, your pre-game concern that one of us would lose from uneven minor regime distribution was valid. You just plain had more and easier access to expansion than I did. I'm not sure there's really any good way to fix this short of having an extremely flat planet that's totally covered with minors or any other sort of planet that basically has no minors.
I don't know, maybe keeping majors around would have worked better? In that they are a bit harder to take in stride.
  • IDK how you managed to do as well as you did with that terrible Supreme Command Council director you had. Yours looked at least as bad as the one I started with, and I spent the first 2-3 turns getting rid of mine... and I was still starved for PP the whole game despite a high Democracy profile. Not getting rid of my Econ director was also a big mistake; had I gotten Heavy Industry sooner, the additional Heavy Battledress units that would have translated to would have made a very large impact. Having said that, the RNG would have likely been different and I'd probably not have gotten HBd...
I... have completely forgotten how terribad he is. And I was struggling with low PP until the late game. Not least because of me wasting those on unification attempts. Had I realised he's to blame I'd fire him on the spot. I even had a CapV administrator from some scrap card idling as an advisor. And there I was praying for the democracy bonuses to finally trigger for half of the game. Doh.

And I think I didn't want to play propose client because of what I saw as a high chance of critical failure lowering relations and making the whole thing even harder to achieve. And as you may be able to see in the gif, the previous two joined me so quickly that my expectations of success were high. Alas.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 03:09:30 pm
It feels counterintuitive, but you're probably right majors would help. They'd both war with minors (thus preventing diplomatic absorption) and be more of than a speedbump as far as conquest goes. Capturing their capitals intact would be much more of a boon than random minor zones, but you'd also have to sink a lot more resources into doing so.

A big reason I had fewer OHQ was just b/c I relied very heavily on militia to fight minors and marauders. That ultimately was a mistake; the additional level of bonuses from the OHQ CDR would have likely made a significant difference even w/o considering postures. To a certain degree, this was b/c I fell into a trap where constantly replenishing lost troops felt like I wasn't draining my civilian economy b/c I wasn't deploying 5k troops all at once, but I'd've been better off doing so. I put enough effort into replenishing militia forces with modern troops that they could fight effectively, but their leadership was always sub-par.

Another place I suffered was not getting any Mind profiles early on. Given my bureaucratic focus, that hurt me a lot - even the 18FP (!) I spent on Science Outposts gave me little more research bonus than what the first level of Mind would have, and I didn't backfill and get that until... turn 50, maybe? I can't remember for sure, but it was late. I also wasted about 10 turns early on researching a useless civvie tech so as to avoid risking later getting it from a free tech card, but I'd've been better served by letting those points go to discovery and possibly getting Heavy Industry sooner.

And yes, my cabinet hated me. For much of the game I struggled with my Word score or from refusing faction demands to avoid hurting my Word score, and those two factors reduced my popularity repeatedly. There also was just a lot of discord in my cabinet WRT profiles. I ended up going deep into Heart to try to keep people happy, and they still weren't happy. Looking at reports, I also appear to have had a lot of cult problems in this regard; one of them (Mystic?) was regularly harassing leaders with high Egoism scores and that resulted in a lot of lost relation.

You're right about how much I was hurt by industrial lagging, though how much that was hurting me was lost on me first by my struggles to get enough metal and machines, and then once we started fighting by my recruitment shortfall. My lack of industry was also a big reason why I ended the game with a bunch of protectorates/clients to my west but no connection to them - indeed, that was a big reason it took me as long as it did to unify with my southern holdings.

I think the water made more of a difference than might be clear from your POV; it wasn't so much what it let you have as what its absence (and also how much cheaper my sell point seems to have been than yours) caused me to give up to stay solvent. I sold off a lot of stuff I'd rather have not sold, especially food (see the above discussion of mass starvation) but also my nuclear reserves. Had I had more of those, Id've probably fielded A LOT more nuke RPG units in the last few turns - the reason you saw as few of those as you did despite them being fairly effective was mostly a lack of rads.

I'm not sure counterbatteries would have helped much. Your attack bonuses made your artillery brutal while mine was fairly lackluster, although IIRC I had a pretty good structural design for them.

On the subject of structural designs, you definitely seemed to have more luck with that. I spent a lot of time redesigning common models in hopes of getting something passable, and often settling for something in the 90s as the best I could get. I will say that my mechanized artillery design was striking; Improvised Explosive Artillery may be the single worst unit design I've ever rolled...
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 18, 2022, 04:01:35 pm
Oh, I did waste some BP myself unsuccessfully (re)designing a few models. Including mech artillery. But machineguns, and light tanks I started with were excellent.

I'm not sure counterbatteries would have helped much. Your attack bonuses made your artillery brutal while mine was fairly lackluster, although IIRC I had a pretty good structural design for them.
It is my strong perception that it's not the design or bonuses that mattered here, but numbers. It seems to me that the effectiveness of art doesn't scale linearly. IMO there is a breakaway point somewhere around 20 or 30 units, after which you go from softening a few troops, to obliterating all defences. In this view, the counterbatteries that you did have fared poorly because there were pretty much always <5 of them.
Similarly, I believe your planes would cause much more havoc if you invested into one big stack rather than splitting them among different roles.
However, this is but a gut feeling. Needs more testing.


As for the majors - the issue with those is, of course, that they can make the starts >extremely< imbalanced.
The best route of action would be to somehow (is this doable?) have a third party preview the maps so that an approximately equal placement can be found.


What do you think about the starting options we had here? E.g. would you rather we picked higher tech? Lower?
Myself, I liked the tech, but I'm inclined to upping it to 3 zones and 2 armies per zone - maybe that would help equalise the opportunities better.
Also, smaller map for duels like this? Larger? Etc.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 04:30:52 pm
FWIW, when I sent in a few large stacks of aircraft they fared poorly, and they were also very taxing on my industrial base. I also made the mistake of going primarily for hard bombers rather than soft. If we'd've kept going, though, the retrograde shorter-range propeller missile-and-rocket wing I had in my capital might have been able to do something, but I'm honestly skeptical. My machines would have been better spent on battledress.

Honestly, I liked the size - it gave us a chance to get to some late tech before we started fighting. We could probably do 3 zones, and 2 per zone would be more forgiving. I also agree with the tech - starting at 5 removes a lot of the randomness, but it also makes minors feel like pushovers.

I think it could work for a third party observer, but it'd be rough - early on, I'd've said my start was as good as yours though definitely wasn't. The main red flag would've been the lake blocking access to half of my frontiers, I suppose - your lake did a better job of letting you skirt it or go over isthmuses to get to the other side. Just bumping things up to three zones would reduce the proportional disparity of access to a couple more zones.

Another thing that might help is taking Survival Stress. That'd mean there would be more but smaller regimes. This could also backfire, though, because there's always the possibility of one person ending up next to farmers & raiders, but the other next to the same chunk of population but in the form of slavers & nomads. I suppose this risk is just as present with more, larger regimes though.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 18, 2022, 06:32:14 pm
I've heard it mentioned on the Shadow Empire forums that artillery/bombers are basically like dumping resources on your enemy. Theory, both are only sustainable if you exceed your for in resources. What was your actual experience with these?

Surprised that I didn't hear either of you discuss tanks. In my solo games, Tanks are King. I've seen arguments that APCs might be better, but I think tanks are overall more versatile.

How did you two organize your playthrough?

I imagine that with 3+ players, the key would be to set aside one day a week to push out turns, rather than playing one turn every few days. I have generally found that each turn tends to flow into the next, and it would be downright painful to be constantly trying to remember what my concerns from last turn that I need to be working on to reach a goal in a future turn.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2022, 08:00:27 pm
Tanks were less king than they often are b/c the brief war we fought involved a great deal of fighting in mountains and then forests. Tanks played a strong role the last few turns, but the decisive thrusts were largely large blocks of infantry. Well, I suppose the northern chokepoint was tanks gradually pushing back tanks. The best tanks they had were heavies (hence above discussions of running low on fuel) and the best I had were assault guns (which meant that once the heavies came into play, my tanks got pushed back despite being nominally harder to kill).

Our game organization was very haphazard. I generated a world to the specs we'd agreed on, and then generated another one with PBEM options on b/c I'd accidentally done the first as hotseat. Then we just threw turns back and forth as soon as we did them. We were only doing one or fewer turns per day for the last few; for the most part, we'd get several in.

Focus isn't as hard to retain as you think; normally you've got a few areas of interest where your fronts are, and relatively few cities where things can be happening. Additionally, there's A LOT of reports generated that can point you towards what you should be checking.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 19, 2022, 04:21:30 am
I'd sometimes forget about a thing or two I was going to do by the time the next turn rolled out. But then again, I do that between turns even in SP. Keeping notes would likely completely alleviate this.

As for tanks, I always prefer infantry for its low logistical demands and ability to form defensive lines on the cheap. Tanks tend to be made for specific purposes rather than as a mainstay. In this game I had relatively numerous light tank battalions, because I rolled a good structural design. So they semi-replaced buggies in their role.
I had a few battalions of assault guns and maybe two or three heavies. The heavies were made specifically to counter EA's assault guns since the 60mm guns on the light tanks couldn't dent them.
There were also two(?) infantry divisions with APC's to help with breakthroughs. The extra oomph is always handy, but here they would die often to EA's quality infantry so they saw limited action. The very difficult terrain wasn't especially conductive to manoeuvre combat anyway.
I'd probably invest in something more substantial once my underfunded staff council operationalised a tank army or a mechanized one. But on the other hand, I'd be out of fuel by then.

It's always a surprise to me how relatively few armoured units can guzzle so much fuel. Most of the active designs had fuel efficiency too. If I hadn't found myself with some 40-50k stocked before the hostilities started I'd be much limited in my ability to push through.



I was wondering, EA - given how your one attack on my not-really-essential infrastructure made a good amount of damage - whether you bombing the truck station I built on the eastern slopes of the mountains (and maybe Highmount too) would not entirely cripple all of my forces by starving them of supplies.
Although, as with everything else, you'd probably need more time to organise such long-range bombing raids. In any case, it seems like strategic bombing might be very powerful if one lets themselves get caught with their AA pants down.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 19, 2022, 11:46:38 am

My assault guns were monsters. They were also the only significantly above-average armored vehicle I designed all game (next best two were 105 Heavy Tanks and my second take on APCs), and they were one of the few who didn't start out in the low 90s or below and require multiple redesigns to be even close to average. They also suffered from the same lack of refinement as the rest of my armies - RNG did not like my Applied Science director.

I really did want to bomb out your supply lines, and given what hell I played on my own logistics immediately before your line hit mine, I should have had it fresh in my mind. Your truck stations were just outside the range of my bombers, though, and my thinking was too rigid to build a forward airbase or redesign the bombers to eek out a few more hexes range. The other problem my air forces suffered was very thematic - our love affair with technology meant that as soon as we could build rockets, we basically forgot low-tech soft attack options even existed, and built almost nothing but hard attack options that fared poorly against your massed infantry in rough terrain. But if I had tweaked my designs, built a forward airbase, and waited until I had massed bomber wings to launch an attack, I probably could have done heavy logistic damage. Instead, I waffled and tried to do everything at once w/o going all-in on anything except technologically-derived hubris.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 19, 2022, 12:34:54 pm
See, I went with 50 mm shittier armour for mine, for half the hitpoints (but also cheaper). However +52% conventional gun linear tech and cluster bombs meant it had twice the oomph against infantry.
Such was the hubris of the ersatz Galactic Republic - they had plenty shiny techs on paper, but it was the League of Hoboken they were so ready to patronise who had the real tech advantage. #applied_love #engineering>science

In all seriousness, I feel we both paid too much attention to the structural design. The difference between, say, 90 and 110 ain't that big in practice, while redesigning eats up valuable time.

I imagine that with 3+ players, the key would be to set aside one day a week to push out turns, rather than playing one turn every few days.
Remembering the Emperor of the Fading suns PBEMs, those games generally went at a pace of a turn per day, maybe two days later on (right? or am I misremembering?), and it was ok. And that's accounting for the constant diplomacy in the metagame.
Here we had more like 3 per day on average, and we finished in less than a month. I suspect it wouldn't be so bad to go normally, maybe even with 5 players, if they all went in prepared for a few months of play. The pace we had was actually too rapid, imo, as it ate up a lot of my free time.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 19, 2022, 05:12:13 pm
I imagine that with 3+ players, the key would be to set aside one day a week to push out turns, rather than playing one turn every few days.
Remembering the Emperor of the Fading suns PBEMs, those games generally went at a pace of a turn per day, maybe two days later on (right? or am I misremembering?), and it was ok. And that's accounting for the constant diplomacy in the metagame.
Here we had more like 3 per day on average, and we finished in less than a month. I suspect it wouldn't be so bad to go normally, maybe even with 5 players, if they all went in prepared for a few months of play. The pace we had was actually too rapid, imo, as it ate up a lot of my free time.

You forget how we started by playing the first 5 turns on the same day. At least the ones(?) that I was in.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 19, 2022, 05:14:20 pm
In all seriousness, I feel we both paid too much attention to the structural design. The difference between, say, 90 and 110 ain't that big in practice, while redesigning eats up valuable time.

IDK the exact relationship but structural design impacts other design elements too - engine/weapon/armor are described in the design log as "based on base design modified for struct. design". My first and only attempt at Mechanized Artillery is a good example; it had an initial BD of 94 (80th percentile of initial BD) but its 76 SD left it with 54 ED, 63 WD, and 77 AD. Its 180mm gun had the same attack value as my initial dragged artillery's 105mm gun (plus, yes, -30% move modifier on a 555 weight vehicle w/an 800 power engine). I went back into one of the final saves and re-designed it - first changing nothing, then modernizing. The iterated version is not terribly impressive (bad rolls for design improvements are always possible) and at this point a 4th iteration is as expensive as a new base model (480pts in either case, but iterating off the new one will be 120pts):

(https://i.imgur.com/n716tcY.png)

Doing a redesign may not only give you a better high-end model, but it may give you a better model than the intermediate one you'd get by using and refining the crappier one. The main question becomes whether you'd be better off using something else to fill that tactical role while you do a redesign, or if there's no better alternative. Forex, my initial light tank was so bad (SD 86, BD 85, ED 60, WD 71, AD 86... all of which ended up with crappy combat stats and a -60% move modifier) that just to usefully field test that design I'd have to iterate on the initial unit b/c it wasn't combat-ready as out-of-the-box.

(Ofc, again, RNG can make or break you in either case.)

You forget how we started by playing the first 5 turns on the same day. At least the ones(?) that I was in.

We did 8 and 7 in the first and second 24h periods of this game. Though again, only 2 players.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 04:35:14 am
So, for the entire game I did not generate a single 'plea of friendship' stratagem (hence couldn't bump up the relations with those minors I tried to unify). Something I always have in relative abundance when playing SP. Do you happen to know what are the requirements?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 20, 2022, 07:33:34 am
That's a faction stratagem, so you need happy factions, plus the Accomplished Envoys feat to unlock that particular card. Look on page 246 of the manual for the rest of those.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 08:02:34 am
Yeah, but I had meritocracy focus from the start, gaining those feats, and my factions were happy. The main one had +++ meritocracy focus. Not a single plea of friendship over the entire game.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 20, 2022, 10:13:01 am
RNG hates you then. That's all I can figure.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 10:48:51 am
Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time.

Anyway, I suspect we'll both need some time to rest after this round. But do let me know if you're ever in the mood for starting another. Maybe with more players.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 20, 2022, 04:21:26 pm
Honestly, I enjoyed it and would be ready and willing to start up another round any time.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 04:26:52 pm
I'll need at least another week or two. :)

How's your attitude towards more players?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 20, 2022, 04:42:43 pm
It'd make things more interesting. I'm not sure about how planet size would work best with it - this planet was a decent size but with more players I'd want more minors too - it was kinda barren for expansion if we were gonna hit a major sooner than we did, certainly on my side. Less water might be safer, too - the lake right by my capital hurt me a lot more than your lake did. In that respect, I'm kinda eager to see what Vic does with naval factions/forces.

OTOH, more minors make logistics less important and speed up tech development a lot. I'm really not sure what a happy medium is.

I might screw around with some different planet types. In principle, the oasis-type planet seems like it's made with MP in mind, but I've never done much with it. It would be nice if we could recycle planet seeds - I really think the god-awful SP planet I sent you would be a sort that'd work well for MP even if I spent the first 40 turns doing nothing but fighting off dragons, basilisks, and other kaiju-scale abominations. That's like an accidental version of an oasis planet where you've got valleys with 1-2 cities and mountain ranges between them.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 05:27:16 pm
It would be nice if we could recycle planet seeds
Tell me about it. I rolled a really fun planet, with lots of SP role-playing potential. But forgot to check the airforce box and now I'm too miffed about it to keep playing.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 20, 2022, 05:45:35 pm
Small Planet Type Small Moon No Minors MP Deathmatch!
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 05:49:56 pm
Lol. I actually wonder how it'd play out if there were, say, 10 players and no other cities on the map.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Salmeuk on September 20, 2022, 06:12:51 pm
I play this game (poorly) and would be down to roleplay a blundering major with yall. .

I vote kaiju planet because then I have something to fight before inevitable annihilation via bombardment and light armor

though, I must ask what the flow of play by email is for a game like this? were you trading saves multiple times a day?
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Karlito on September 20, 2022, 06:16:28 pm
I'd play though it's kind of a lot with Dominions ongoing. Maybe if there was a weekend focus to get turns done and a more relaxed pace otherwise.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: EuchreJack on September 20, 2022, 07:00:21 pm
I'd play though it's kind of a lot with Dominions ongoing. Maybe if there was a weekend focus to get turns done and a more relaxed pace otherwise.
+1
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 20, 2022, 07:28:08 pm
Yeah, so from my side of things, if we were to start sometime this side of November, the pace would likely have to be extra leisurely.

though, I must ask what the flow of play by email is for a game like this? were you trading saves multiple times a day?
There's been some talk about this on the previous page. But tl;dr yes. A few per day, initially. But it's easy to keep up such pace with two players only, especially where there's some overlap in gaming-permitting waking hours despite different time zones. With 4+ players I would go in expecting one per day or less.
Title: Re: Shadow Empire - Galactic Republic vs League of Hoboken - AARs and shit, maybe
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2022, 05:02:25 pm
For the record, we're going ahead and setting up another game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180350.0). 4 player slots (the max possible) and two are filled. So...