Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: wierd on June 25, 2013, 09:56:37 pm

Title: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 25, 2013, 09:56:37 pm
Ok, last week there was a thread asking questions about what kinds of relationships dwarves are willing to become involved in, and when dwarves will begin hooking up with family members, and how distant they must be to be considered marriage material.

So, I created Secretchambers the Lurid Decay, and founded the society of UglyDefects the Anguished Faces of Love to help definitively answer such questions.

The 7 honeymoon suites have been constructed, and one lucky couple has gotten hitched all by themselves so far.

Living accomodations for a VERY large number of dwarves (over 700!) Have been allocated, and the two initial migrant waves have arrived.

It is now time to seal the vault-tec vault, and begin the societal experiments!

To help engage our readers, prospective pairings will be submitted for approval in this thread, along with excerpts from their thoughts pages.  This can double as a eugenics research experiment.

Now-- to begin the experiment properly, I need to prevent any further migrations. How can I accomplish this without also turning off babies?
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Hostialan on June 25, 2013, 10:07:32 pm
Lock migration waves outside so they will starve or go insane, the dwarves inside will not be affected by their deaths so long as you make slabs for them.
That is the only non-mod way I can think of preventing Migrants
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 25, 2013, 10:38:35 pm
Ok, the fortress is now completely sealed off.

Once all the bedroom designations are completed, the initial round of honeymoon subjects will be selected.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Deepblade on June 25, 2013, 11:37:33 pm
You could also set the migration cap in the D_init file. After the dwarf liason leave it goes into effect, and if you go under it you'll probably get massive waves that are potentially way over it.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 25, 2013, 11:43:47 pm
I don't see a migration cap. Just a population cap (which institutes birth control), and a child percentage cap.

Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Saraias on June 26, 2013, 12:09:57 am
To seal off the migrant totals, set the population cap in the init file. This is not the absolute population cap, just the population above which the mountainhome will not send migrants (after the liaison/caravan visit when the total population of the fort equals or exceeds this amount). The other variable of interest is BABY_CHILD_CAP. You'll keep having babies up until the first number you reach. So you may want to set it higher and lower depending on where you're at in the marriage experiment. Default is 100:1000 (100 babies, 1000% of population). I often bump it up to 150-200 when I have a large number of couples and want to diversify the family pool by ensuring that they all have a chance to extend the bloodline. When the time comes for reproduction, remember that idle couples appear to get pregnant more often. In my forts, anyways, the always-on-duty military types (and even those who individual combat drill all the time), or those in industries with constant work, tend to have the smallest birth rates, even when there is lots of baby-cap to go around. I look forward to your findings!!

Edit: as an example, my current fortress has a Pop_cap of 95, baby_child_cap of 100:1000 and about 350 citizens right now. Most were born here.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Deepblade on June 26, 2013, 12:44:30 am
While you're at it, you should see if you can breed create a blood line of larger than average dwarves.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: itg on June 26, 2013, 12:54:50 am
You'll save a lot of time if you edit the raws to set the adulthood age to, say, 2 years old. I think you can do this by changing the [CHILD:12] tag in the creature_standard raw file to [CHILD:2]. You might be able to set [BABY:0] and [CHILD:0] and have dwarven mothers give birth to full-grown adults, but someone with more modding experience will have to answer that question.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Matoro on June 26, 2013, 01:46:53 am
I'd recommend you to find a world with an extinct Dwarven civ. You'll get just two first migration waves.

Also, something I've noticed concerning relationships: Nearly any possible dwarven pair without grudge will become lover and go married if they are kept in a small room with bed, table, chair, food and booze. It takes about three months. Oh, and don't forgte the ten years rule. First of my marriage research projects failed because I didn't knew that dwarves can't marry anyone more than ten years older or younger than them.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Fluoman on June 26, 2013, 03:49:43 am
Just adding my voice to the project, but I recently personally confirmed that a fort with a pop_cap set to 1 and a child cap set to 100:1000 allows conception of dwarves.
Allowing the first two migrant waves in and separating the useless migrants (grunts to provide food) and the experiment migrants (grunts to provide babies) WILL be faster than just getting by with the founder seven.
With a pop_cap of one, you only need one meeting with the liaison.

On another subject, since this is +Science+ about reproduction, can you check if reproduction by spores is possible among dwarves?
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 04:36:07 am
I have already started a fortress on a world where I tried VERY hard to extinctify dwarves. Somehow they survived, despite #civs being turned waaaay up, X/Y elevation variance being turned waaaaay down (removes cliffs, and makes mountain generation difficult), #peaks being set at 2, savagery being set absurdly high, volcanism set absurdly high, etc.

The embark is savage. It relentlessly spawns animal men and giant animals. I used dfhack's embark command to embark directly on top of a necro tower, and before unpausing, locked and forbade the doors, then built the fortress all around the necro tower, thus incorporating it into the fortress's design.  It's inhabitants will be used to preserve the bodies of the dead in permanent unlife. (Gives me something !!fun!! To do while I wait for dwarves to become inbred idiots.)

I am gonna run with a few house rules.

1) nobody enters or leaves for any reason at all. There litterally will not be a door into the fortress.
2) the liason will speak with the mayor/baron through a fortification slit, via a tiny 1x1 room with a locked door. The meeting room will be an exploit: create an office in a 1x3 tube room, then install a fortification wall afterwards. This will allow the liason to get into one side of the office, and the noble into the other. The liason will never get inside the fortress, because the fortification will be in the way.
3) per the above rules, the trade depot is there just to avoid the "inaccessible depot" spam, and the caravans are goblin bait. Nothing more. They are to be ignored.
4) Goblinite will not be collected
5) only food, crossbow bolts and clothing items will be created inside the fortress, and only as needed. Mandate items will be created, then atom smashed or melted.
6) per 5 above, moods are disabled.

These rules are in effect to ensure total longevity of the fortress, since item creation is what usually causes the FPS death, and this fortress will have to run a very long time to complete the experiment.

As already stated, the fortress is nearly ready to be sealed, and the experiment begun. Fortress has 31 residents at the moment. That is enough to begin. The "dwarven consolate chamber" still needs to be constructed, but will be easy to accomplish.

Tomorrow I will begin candidate selection for honeymoon suite duty, and will post the lucky single's data for thread feedback and matchmaker services.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Larix on June 26, 2013, 05:24:09 am
You should really consider switching invaders off for such an experiment. It'll lose you the forgotten beasts, true, but it will save you from item clutter and murderous slab-immune axedwarf ghosts. You can always switch invaders on later if you want to have some FUN.

You can put the depot inside, where the caravan can't get at it - no wagons will appear and the traders will freeze on the map edge until it's time to move on. They're still susceptible to ambushes.

If you set your population cap very low (ten or so), you won't receive more than the first two migration waves, and since pop_cap doesn't affect anything _but_ migration, it won't hinder your breeding, which is only governed by the child cap. All those people murdering harmless migrants by the hundreds are either enjoying the practice for some unfathomable reason or aren't aware of the possibility to simply edit the d_init file so migrants don't migrate.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Fluoman on June 26, 2013, 05:48:08 am
Quote from: Larix on June 26, 2013, 05:24:09 am
All those people murdering harmless migrants by the hundreds are either enjoying the practice for some unfathomable reason or aren't aware of the possibility to simply edit the d_init file so migrants don't migrate.
Or they can't get the liaison to go in the fortress, which prevents the game from enforcing the pop cap.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Mr S on June 26, 2013, 08:00:12 am
DFHack has a command to update the pop_cap to the Mountainhomes.  Just sayin'
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Flarp on June 26, 2013, 11:31:31 am
Since socialization (in DF defined as "two dwarves being idle and in adjacent tiles to one another") is a key component of relationship building, you might also want to invest in some very small statue gardens. Since the passing acquaintance -> long-term acquaintance transition (as well as, probably, the acquaintance -> lover transition) seem to be based on compatibility, these Socialization Suites will allow your experimental candidates to mingle automatically and select their most compatible lovers.

Also, in an early fort with a relatively low population, a couple statues of valuable metal in a smoothed room will generate very happy thoughts, counterbalancing any complications that might occur down the line, especially due to the side-effect of creating many potentially-dangerous friendships.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 11:51:21 am
In this case, prospective lovers will be sequestered into an all expenses paid nuptial suite which contains a quantum stockpile of booze and food, a dining hall made for 2, and 2 beds. Since they are the only ones inside, they have all the time in the world to rub elbows (or whatever it is they rub), and become lovers, without creating dangerous friendship trees.

We want to control who marries whom so that we can maximize the benefits of the experiment. Allowing free association does not accomplish the experimental goals:

1)determine at what level of relation dwarves will engage in incest
2)experimentation on behavioral trait compatibility to see what traits cause grudges when paired.
3)overall Eugenics research, with multiple family lines each receiving different phylogenic goals.



Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 12:54:00 pm
Ok--

Here's the experimental apparatus available to us here at SecretChambers!
(note, images are full size. Links instead of embeds Photobucket sucks, and scaled the images without asking! Sorry!)

Here at SecretChambers, Dwarven luxury is not just a euphemism, but a way of life! Initially built as a containment facility to prevent the local human necromancers from raising unholy armies of the undead to use against the mountain home, SecretChambers quickly evolved into a truly unique place to live! Take a virtual tour!

Tower level 3 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-77-region3-102-28743_zps5a9e5103.png)
Tower level 2 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-76-region3-102-28743_zps3ab2a5b4.png)
Tower level 1 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-75-region3-102-28743_zpsbdacb3c4.png)
Tower ground floor (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-74-region3-102-28743_zps43081c3d.png)
Sub level 1 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-73-region3-102-28743_zps54046799.png)
Sub level 2 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-72-region3-102-28743_zps5ae2a072.png)
Sub level 3 (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/SecretchamberstheL-71-region3-102-28743_zps50fb4c95.png)

Tower level 3 currently contains the food stockpiles, kitchens, and the initial flying dining hall wing. It will be renovated for growing surface crops once the floor tiles have been muddied with water from the two wells in sub level 1.

Tower level 2 currently contains the initial stockpiles required to service the fortress, and the makeshift masonry and crafts dwarf's workshops. This level will be re-designated for textile processing at a later time.

Tower level 1 contains the drop-chutes for the quantum food stockpiles in the nuptial suites on the Tower ground floor. It also contains the initial living quarters, and the drop bridge for depositing our honored dead into the chamber of eternity on the ground floor. Visible from this level are the rooftops of the 4 security pillboxes installed to safeguard the facility from marauding green-skinned mutants.

Tower ground level contains the 7 nuptial suites, the ground floor of the necromancer tower, the chamber of eternity, the trade depot portico, and the extra special* office of extra-dwarven affairs. The security pillboxes are readily visible, as is the crowd control moat.

Sub Level 1 contains the growing chambers for dwarven staple crops, as well as the hospital zone storage annex, and the 2 wells. (currently dry. The moat is still filling.)

Sub level 2 contains improved housing, the overseer's office, the sherrif's office and jail annex, and the hospital wing, as well as the security offices and municipal weapons lockers for each pillbox.

Sub level 3 is where the magic lives. Welcome to SecretChambers, where the fortress gets its name! This level contains 4 massive, and luxurious dining halls, complete with dedicated kitchens and living accommodations for over 700 dwarves, all of solid stone, smoothed and polished. Access to the security stations is a convenient ascent of the central stairs at the hallway terminus of each wing. This level houses the Royal Suite, as well as untapped provisions for lesser nobility and royal mausoleums.

Our facility is completely self sufficient, and requires no outside interventions of any sort. In fact, it doesn't even have a front door! (or a backdoor either!)
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Flarp on June 26, 2013, 12:55:32 pm
Quote from: wierd on June 26, 2013, 11:51:21 am
In this case, prospective lovers will be sequestered into an all expenses paid nuptial suite which contains a quantum stockpile of booze and food, a dining hall made for 2, and 2 beds. Since they are the only ones inside, they have all the time in the world to rub elbows (or whatever it is they rub), and become lovers, without creating dangerous friendship trees.

We want to control who marries whom so that we can maximize the benefits of the experiment. Allowing free association does not accomplish the experimental goals:

1)determine at what level of relation dwarves will engage in incest
2)experimentation on behavioral trait compatibility to see what traits cause grudges when paired.
3)overall Eugenics research, with multiple family lines each receiving different phylogenic goals.

Fair enough. Were the pairings created on any basis, or are they truly random?
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 01:08:26 pm
The pairings will be up to the forum to decide on. I will pre-screen candidates so that only individuals within the magic age-range are up for consideration.

We arent quite ready for the Bay12's entry debut of Lowered Expectations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLhQ89o5cPs) just yet though.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Mr. Palau on June 26, 2013, 04:10:11 pm
Try to bread a race of super-dwarves.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 04:24:39 pm
Scratch that--  looks like the whole fortress has somehow managed to get hitched behind my back! Looks like generation 0 will be wild type.

I will set child:1 to resolve the children issue, so I have material to work with.

**

Child:1 set.
Renaming dwarves with their new geneological descriptors. At least one outstanding situation with adult with already adult and married child detected.

5 children are present.

We have initial genetic lineages A through Q, apparently, and 4 unmarried adult dwarves.

Current data forthcoming. Stand by.

Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 06:51:42 pm
(OK! Image heavy post of insane all populated! Whew! Discuss options!)

The following entries detail the 16 initial reproductive pairings, their already extant offspring, the fortress's bachelors, and recomendations for each.

List:

Spoiler: Group A (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group B (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group C (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group D (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group E (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group F (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group G (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group H (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group I (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group J (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group K (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group L (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group M (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group N (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group O (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group P (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Group Q (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Bachelorette (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bachelor #1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bachelor #2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bachelor #3 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 07:35:17 pm
OK, Now that the prefs pages for our initial breeding stock are up, time to make recommendations for the experimental process.

Group A exhibits good candidacy for testing obesity. Sadly, their offspring will likely suffer serious issues with exhaustion.  Recommend culling all offspring that exhibit both negative traits of the father, and cross easily tired offspring with another group that is difficult to tire.

Group B exhibits good candidacy for testing muscularity, but their offspring will certainly have difficulties with disease. Recommend crossing their offspring with another group that shows disease resistance, and culling disease weak children from that union.

Group C has good traights for Tough and Strong, but weaknesses for disease, slow to heal and flimsyness. The flimsy bad trait might breed out. Recommend to cull offspring with slow to heal and flimsy attributes, breed offspring against disease resistant goups.

The 4 bachelor dwarves apparently will never marry. Bachelorette and Bachelor #1 are of compatible ages, but have formed a grudge. Bachelor's 2 and 3 are way outside bachelorette's age range.  These dwarves will become a farmer, a mason/craftsdwarf, a clothier, and a brewer. All other dwarves will have all labors revoked. All dining halls will cease to serve as meeting halls.

Etc.

I will make a full breakdown later.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: werty892 on June 26, 2013, 08:27:47 pm
Quote from: Mr. Palau on June 26, 2013, 04:10:11 pm
Try to bread a race of super-dwarves.
WE SHALL COVER THE SUPER-DWARVES...WITH BREAD, THEN COOK THEM IN A DELICIOUS PASTY AND CONSUME THEM! ALL HAIL BREAD DWARVES!

Sigged for hilarious typo XD
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2013, 08:58:55 pm
The "delicious pasty" is especially hilarious.

You DO no what a pasty IS, right?

Spoiler: you are warned (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: itg on June 26, 2013, 10:46:21 pm
Maybe he meant it as in Cornish pasty. That's food.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Lich180 on June 26, 2013, 10:48:53 pm
Quote from: wierd on June 26, 2013, 08:58:55 pm
-snip-

There is also the pastie, which here in Michigan is beef, carrot or turnip and potato wrapped in a flaky crust and baked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty)

Dang, ninja'd while admiring the pasties on wikipedia. Now I'm hungry.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 27, 2013, 12:24:31 am
Back on topic:

I exterminated the children, except for GroupN_Gen1_Unit1, who has no negative (physical) traits, and is worthy of joining the Gen1 genepool.

The other 4 children were fed alive to the zombies. (Not kidding. I really did.)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: InfinityOrNone on June 27, 2013, 12:48:20 am
There is so much delicious evil in this thread I will never need to season my food again.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 27, 2013, 01:10:51 pm
Several dwarven babies were born today.  Only 2 are fit to enter Gen1 genepool however, due to inheriting multip0le bad traits from their worthless parents who insisted upon marrying for love instead of science.

An interesting bug seems to have cropped up as well.  Seems that putting a custom name on a newborn baby frequently causes the baby to be dropped. I have several unworthy ankle biters crawling all over the main metro area. Their parents? Chatting it up in their quarters. Such usless creatures these dwarves!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on June 27, 2013, 01:21:49 pm
Quote from: wierd on June 27, 2013, 01:10:51 pm
Such usless creatures these dwarves!

I'm sure that's what cats think about us. keep at it. We'll have a genetically pure race of Dwarves in not time.
Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: Mr. Palau on June 27, 2013, 03:38:24 pm
Quote from: werty892 on June 26, 2013, 08:27:47 pm
Quote from: Mr. Palau on June 26, 2013, 04:10:11 pm
Try to bread a race of super-dwarves.
WE SHALL COVER THE SUPER-DWARVES...WITH BREAD, THEN COOK THEM IN A DELICIOUS PASTY AND CONSUME THEM! ALL HAIL BREAD DWARVES!

Sigged for hilarious typo XD
lol that's hillarious. I had actually spelled "breed" the right way and then was like "wait that's not how you spell breed" and typed in bread.

To OP, you can also test whether any new traits emerge or if dwarves' physical attributes are entirely determined by their parents' attributes. You know, see if  the child of a strong dwarf and a tough dwarf, both with average agility, can have poor agility or poor some-other-trait, or be endowed with a god-like resistance to disease.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 27, 2013, 03:49:25 pm
I have already noted spontaneous generation of disease resistance trait in a desirable G1 offspring. It was spared.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Urist_McGamer on June 27, 2013, 04:57:13 pm
Posting to watch, I really enjoy the Dwarven Science that people get up to on these forums.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 27, 2013, 05:29:42 pm
The nature of this research requires lots of time, because it can't be sped up.

The amount of data being produced is too difficult to share in full. (Just look at the Gen0 preferences dump! That was 46 images!)

Instead, I have decided on the following protocols:

If the parents share a negative trait, permit the negative trait in the offspring. If either parent is lacking in a negative trait, and the offspring inherits the ngative trait, the offspring is to be culled. Inheritence of multiple bad traits also results in culling.

Phase one will systematically eliminate all physical bad traits via a combination of culling and arranged marriages.

Phase two will begin once all negative physical traits have been eradicated, and will repeat the process for bad mental traits.

The fortress will then be savescummed, and processed through legends mode to extract pertinent data on how each generation of culling and arranged marriage worked in regard to rate of culling, to produce a statistical curve for future reference. This is why the naming convention is used; all culls are given a cull designator, instead of a unit designator. This allows culled offspring to be tracked seperately from accepted offspring, so that the rate of culling for each generation can be plotted.

The savescummed fortress will then enter phase 3 of the experiment, where the fortress will be rennovated to accept isolated populations based on phylogenic features. (Eye color, hair color, fatness, etc.)  Once this is done, and all offspring breed true for those isolated features within their isolated sub-blocks of the fortress, inheritence studies for dominance and recessivity for these features will commence.

Phase 4 of the experiment will test various phylogenic features for impact in regard to military service and fortress labor activities. (Fatness vs thinness, etc.) Savescumming for repeated identical trials will be heavily employed to silence experimental noise.

Phase 5 of the experiment will be to employ all data collected previously to cull all disadvantageous phylogenic groups from the fortress, then grow the resulting population of uberdwarves until the fortress' theoretical maximum capacity is reached, while maintaing all purity standards.

After phase 5, the fortress will be released for community use. (The historical migrants from this fortress will surely be superior to those from any other fortress, and the effect of phase 5 completion will be that over 700 such dwarves will be in existence. This makes this world interesting from a community bloodlines game standpoint.)

This project will take a very long time to complete to phase 5.

The data, however, will be delicious.



Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on June 27, 2013, 05:36:41 pm
recessive genes do exist. In the eugenics thread the guy had noted a few blood lines where the parents had the same skin, hair, or eye color was being passed down, but occasionally he'd get a child with a different color.

He had also observed that a couple that liked crossbows had several children that liked crossbows as well.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Mr. Palau on June 27, 2013, 08:24:06 pm
Quote from: Deepblade on June 27, 2013, 05:36:41 pm
recessive genes do exist. In the eugenics thread the guy had noted a few blood lines where the parents had the same skin, hair, or eye color was being passed down, but occasionally he'd get a child with a different color.

He had also observed that a couple that liked crossbows had several children that liked crossbows as well.
I might not be right but IIRC preferences are not inherited.

Also, are mental attributes even inheritable?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 27, 2013, 08:30:25 pm
I have noticed that it appears to be correlated with the parents.

Culling will help determine if it is indeed heritable. If it isn't, then the rate of culling will not diminish over time when checked in legends mode.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: cathartic rooster on June 27, 2013, 10:35:51 pm
Are you bothering to watch for throwbacks too or is that just too much data? I want to know if this game remembers not just the parents, but THEIR parents as well. is great grandpa was very sickly but the rest of the dwarves are hardy, could Little Jimmy be born with an aptitude for illness?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Mr. Palau on June 27, 2013, 10:37:50 pm
Quote from: cathartic rooster on June 27, 2013, 10:35:51 pm
Are you bothering to watch for throwbacks too or is that just too much data? I want to know if this game remembers not just the parents, but THEIR parents as well. is great grandpa was very sickly but the rest of the dwarves are hardy, could Little Jimmy be born with an aptitude for illness?
I think he is saving all of the generations attributes so we could check that out after the experiment is done.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2013, 01:27:16 pm
The culling continues.  10 babies have been born. 5 must be culled. Several are inspirations for birth control.

You see what happens when you marry for love, and not science NOW, dwarves?!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Swonnrr on June 28, 2013, 01:50:10 pm
Urist McMother has been ecstatic lately. She has lost a baby. She had to endure the decay of a child. She had been haunted by a child. She watched a fine door.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2013, 01:57:25 pm
Nope, the babies dont decay, because they become zombie babies.

Necromancy, for fun and profit. Just install a necromancer tower directly inside the fortress!

*note

So far, BOTH of GroupQ's babies have had to be culled. So far, they are 0:2 on the genetic lottery. Just thought I would mention that.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: InfinityOrNone on June 28, 2013, 06:30:00 pm
Yes, the data is delicious indeed! Now, here's my question: what is the desired end result of this (besides !!SCIENCE!!, of course)? Do you plan on the creation of a superior and genetically homogenous race of Super Dwarves, which will be made to last until the Age of Fairy Tails as they become the last of the fantastic races left, before you abandon the fort and allow them to scurry out and reclaim the surface world in the name of dorfkind, thus exterminating mankind and, indeed, all else?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2013, 06:35:44 pm
That is a decidedly possible outcome at the conclusion of phase 5, yes.  At that time I will upload the still active fortress for community enjoyment, including immediate abandonment, and creation of new succession games.

At the conclusion of phase 5, the fortress will have over 700 dwarves inside. It has living accomodations for at least that many.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Repseki on June 28, 2013, 06:51:29 pm
So what are the chances you will recreate this entire thing, if the science pans out, when the new update eventually brings more persistent worlds?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2013, 07:04:40 pm
Dunno.. if the raw science holds out, then the whole experiment need not be recreated, just a combination of phases 1, 2 and 5. 

The location of secretchambers isn't anything super special that would be of interest in adv mode, other than having a whole necromancer's tower contained inside it.

For the persistent world recreation of the experiment, I would pick a more interesting, and probably more sinister locale.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Thuellai on June 28, 2013, 10:26:01 pm
Wierd, you need to test something

Namely, whether dwarven inheritance is Darwinian or Lamarckian.

Lamarck felt that traits directly passed down, in other words, trained attributes as well, rather than the modern understanding of these things

Therefore, I propose you take some initially weaker dwarves and find some measure of training their attributes (giant armadillo wrestling, maybe?)

Then see if their children inherit their weaker traits or their newfound strength.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2013, 11:02:20 pm
I would say it is probably lamarkian.  From my observations so far, it looks like it does something similar to this:

Each attribute (toughness, disease resist, etc) is on a sliding spectrum between two extremes. Whe a child is born, the values from the parents are taken, averaged, then a random skew within an undefined tolerance is applied to get the child's attribute score for each attribute.

This is how a child can spontaneously develop disease resistance, from parents that sit at 0 on the slider.  The average of the parent's scores is 0, then the random skew bumps the attribute up, giving the kid the resist attribute.

I intend to look at the attributes of all individuals to track what the degree of skew is in standard deviations, and track how the weighing of the averages of the parents play into the decisions the game engine makes.

By artificially culling all random skew in the downward direction, by eliminating offspring with negative traits, the averaging mechanic should cause the skew factor to trend upwards.

It may however, require me to institute additional culling rules if offspring have ultradwarven parents, and come out merely ordinary from downward skew, but it isn't enough to make the traid negative. 

Getting this kind of information is what this little experiment is all about.

I say it is probably lamarkian, because the actual values of the parent's attribute on the slider can change due to activity, which would have the same effect as altering their genetic makeup when the new averages are taken for later children.

Given that groupQ has consistently produced lemons, perhaps I should put both parents to work turning screwpumps attached to nothing, to increase their strength and muscle mass. Perhaps then their offspring won't be inspirations for birth control.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Thuellai on June 28, 2013, 11:23:11 pm
Give it a shot, report results.

Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on June 28, 2013, 11:34:51 pm
I suppose the dwarven equivalent of the Magic School Bus would be a ☼Ŧ☼Adamantine Minecart☼ŧ☼. All of a sudden I have the incredible urge to load up a bunch of children in a minecart and have someone with a high Teacher skill ride the minecart across magma.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 29, 2013, 12:06:50 am
The Magic Minecart visits the HFS!

Mrs. Sizzle:
Ok children, has everyone met Urist's cousin Keshan?

(Children in unison, dripping derision)
Yes Mrs. Sizzle....

Mrs. Sizzle:
Good! Now everyone turn in your permission slips!

Keshan:
You know Urist, at MY school, we only fill out permission slips once at the beginning of the year! It saves so much time!

Urist:
Can it Keshan, nobody wants to hear about your school anyway.

Rikod:
No kidding Keshan, why don't you go play in GoblinClaus's magic sack, and save us all the misery of your company.

Keshan:
"HRMPH!"

Mrs. Sizzle (oblivious as usual):
Ok Kids! Everyone into the cart!

Urist:
Where are we going? I forgot to pack my plump helmets!

Mrs Sizzle:
Well now Urist, that would spoil the surprise, now wouldn't it! Ok boys, Open it up!

(Two very burly dwarves with expressionless faces pull the levers that open the double foodgates leading down the "very special" minecart track.

Ducim:
Are you sure our parents actually knew where we were going when they signed our permission slips?

Mrs. Sizzle:
Oh don't worry about it dear, everyone goes down here, *eventually*, there's NOTHING to worry about!

Keshan:
At MY school, we already WENT on this field trip!

Mrs Sizzle:
Well then Keshan, don't spoil the surprise for everyone else! Now buckle up! Safety first!


*sorry, but that's all the more I want to entertain that particular road to madness tonight... why is it I have no problems at all imagining this?

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: krenshala on June 29, 2013, 04:37:20 am
Talent? ;)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on June 29, 2013, 12:15:28 pm
Quote from: wierd on June 28, 2013, 11:02:20 pm
Given that groupQ has consistently produced lemons, perhaps I should put both parents to work turning screwpumps attached to nothing, to increase their strength and muscle mass.
...Do you have a biome that spawns giant armadillos?

I've used screw pumps to build up dwarven stats before. You get about 200 Endurance in six months, and something like 50 Strength. Getting them to spar consistently would be better, I think, as that raises more attributes. You don't need anything fancy -- plop a barracks down in the middle of the food and drink storage area, put some individual bedrooms nearby (you can cut the tiles for the beds out of the stockpile. Dwarves don't mind what's in their bedroom space, so long as they have those little blue 'X'es all to themselves), and give the dwarves waterskins. They'll never move further than the food, drink, or bedroom, and the only major time sink will be sleeping.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: callisto8413 on June 29, 2013, 02:14:10 pm
Do you plan to have one goal?  Super-Dwarfs?   Or many goals?  Dwarfs bred for mining, Dwarfs bred for war, Dwarfs bred for hauling?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 29, 2013, 02:27:54 pm
General purpose ultradwarves.

Physical characteristics, like layers of fat, can have significant impact on their usefulness as military units. (I remember reading elaborate machinations to subject UristMcFatty to magma dips to melt his fat off, making him fire proof from then on, as well as issues with bleeding to death from torn fat. This experiment is mostly for raw data collection. It's the dirty work that sets the grounds for more directed experiments. It is also the kind that in the real world, is the most valuable, and also gets the LEAST funding.) --YET still have no measurable impact on other aspects of dwarven life. (Bearing "Untold amounts of fat" wont stop UristMcFatty from working the forges in an expedient manner, if his agility is ultradwarven.)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: InfinityOrNone on June 29, 2013, 11:06:08 pm
Question: as this project already has all the markings of inherent, abhorrent, blasphemous evil, will you go the extra mile and selectively breed for blond hair and blue eyes?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on June 30, 2013, 02:27:38 am
Your color choices for hair are Amber, Auburn Black Brown, Buff, Burnt Sienna, Burnt Umber, Charcoal, Chestnut, Chocolate, Cinnamon, Copper, Dark Brown, Dark Chestnut, Dark Tan, Ecru, Flax, Gold, Golden Yellow, Goldenrod, Light Brown, Mahogany, Ochre, Pale Brown, Pale Chestnut, Pumpkin, Raw Umber, Russet, Saffron, Sepia, Tan, Taupe Dark, Taupe Gray, Taupe Medium, Taupe Pale, Taupe Sandy.

For Skin we have Brown, Burnt Umber, Cinnamon, Copper, Dark Brown, Dark Peach, Dark Tan, Ecru, Pale Brown, Pale Chestnut, Pale Pink, Peach, Pink, Raw Umber, Sepia, Tan, Taupe Pale, Taupe Sandy.

and the Eyes can be Amethyst, Aquamarine, Brass, Bronze, Cobalt, Copper, Emerald, Gold, Heliotrope, Jade, Ochre, Raw Umber, Rust, Silver, Slate Gray, and Turqoise.

Depend on the age of the world some or many of those choices may be non existent. But, if we're also throwing in the side project of super dwarf coloration...I vote for Rust Eyes, Raw Umber Skin, and Charcoal Hair. Blond Hair and Blue Eyes are so last year.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Thuellai on June 30, 2013, 04:28:36 am
Quote from: Deepblade on June 30, 2013, 02:27:38 am
Your color choices for hair are Amber, Auburn Black Brown, Buff, Burnt Sienna, Burnt Umber, Charcoal, Chestnut, Chocolate, Cinnamon, Copper, Dark Brown, Dark Chestnut, Dark Tan, Ecru, Flax, Gold, Golden Yellow, Goldenrod, Light Brown, Mahogany, Ochre, Pale Brown, Pale Chestnut, Pumpkin, Raw Umber, Russet, Saffron, Sepia, Tan, Taupe Dark, Taupe Gray, Taupe Medium, Taupe Pale, Taupe Sandy.

For Skin we have Brown, Burnt Umber, Cinnamon, Copper, Dark Brown, Dark Peach, Dark Tan, Ecru, Pale Brown, Pale Chestnut, Pale Pink, Peach, Pink, Raw Umber, Sepia, Tan, Taupe Pale, Taupe Sandy.

and the Eyes can be Amethyst, Aquamarine, Brass, Bronze, Cobalt, Copper, Emerald, Gold, Heliotrope, Jade, Ochre, Raw Umber, Rust, Silver, Slate Gray, and Turqoise.

Depend on the age of the world some or many of those choices may be non existent. But, if we're also throwing in the side project of super dwarf coloration...I vote for Rust Eyes, Raw Umber Skin, and Charcoal Hair. Blond Hair and Blue Eyes are so last year.

My vote goes to copper eyes, copper skin, copper hair.

They will wear copper armor and use copper weapons and confuse the hell out of their foes.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: callisto8413 on June 30, 2013, 08:52:07 am
I was wondering if you were planning to make a save of this 'game' available?  Others could also work on it.  One person testing out Dwarf eugenics is interesting.  Many people working on it and comparing notes is epic.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 30, 2013, 01:59:33 pm
Something as trivial as eye, hair, and skin color is not appropriate at this phase of research.

However, if silver is one of the available candidates for eye color by the end of phase 4, I vote for that one. No exclusions on skin or hair color.

As for Sutramane's question about giant armadillos--- The embark *IS* on a savage biome, that routinely spawns animal men and giant animals.  I will see if the elven caravan will bring me giant armadillos.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 30, 2013, 02:29:21 pm
You know, groupQ is quickly becoming my favorite group.

I fired up Therapist, and low and behold...

GroupQ_Gen0_Unit1 has a rebelliousness of 78.
GroupQ_Gen0_Unit2 has a neurosis of 100!! (Often crippled by thoughts that everyone is judging and watching)

I think GroupQ qualifies for "Dwarf Trash", and thus are PERFECT fodder for this experiment!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on June 30, 2013, 04:34:34 pm
Actually, it appears that All dwarves in this public works project have Slate Grey colored eyes. ALL of them.

Barring recessive genes coming out, our color options have been eliminated down to, by group...

(I'm sure you can figure it out, but if you can't. The format is GroupLetter-Group# Unit# Skin Color, Hair Color)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you're not against using DFhack I believe there's a marriage script, so you could give GG-G0 U2 The Bachelorette as his Fortress wife. If he dies at minimum dwarf age, 80, and she dies at maximum dwarf age, 130, then their age difference is almost perfect.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on June 30, 2013, 05:22:18 pm
I have decided to allow all bachelors and the bachelorette to be the fortress's dedicated food, clothing, and hospital staff.

In other news, Group E just produced a pretty baby girl. Too bad she has to be culled due to spontaneous generation of negative traits.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Grim Portent on June 30, 2013, 05:55:13 pm
Mmm, so much delicious evil !!Science!!.

I commend you for the great gift to Dwarven !!Science!! that this thread represents. I eagerly await any news of how trait inheritance works in the wretched bearded ones.

Who knows, maybe this will help us make them useful in the long run.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on July 01, 2013, 07:46:07 am
Quote from: wierd on June 30, 2013, 01:59:33 pm
I will see if the elven caravan will bring me giant armadillos.
They need to be wild armadillos. The idea is that you order your unarmed civilians to kill them, which they can't do due to the animal's size and shell. So they keep on trying, gaining stats very quickly, and the armadillo does nothing but stay rolled up.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Grim Portent on July 01, 2013, 09:07:04 am
It occurred to me to ask, is there a control group being maintained in the fort? Most forts don't keep track of the traits of their dwarfs so a normal fort can't be used to provide comparative data for the progression of desired traits in a normal fort compared to the test fort.

I ask only because a control could tell us if there is a natural progression among dwarfs to more desirable traits when not exposed to selective pressures like arranged marriage or regular culls.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 01, 2013, 01:21:41 pm
Actually, the game keeps track of this for you. Any dwarf born or who immigrates to the site will have a persistent prefs page, even after they die.

This means that any non-experiment fortress can be datamined for that information, if the overseer(s) in question feel compelled to do so. (you can see how unconstrained breeding swirls traits around perfectly well with that info)

This experiment does not use a control, because it is more of a raw data gathering experiment, and keeping the control isolated is too difficult.  That is to say, the intent here is to measure the effect of culling, and to track rates of culling over several generations for phases 1 and 2 of the project. 

The reason that such information is useful, is, among other things, that it provides a mathematical baseline for predicting the timetables of eugenics projects, allowing a cost-benefit analysis.  It also will answer basic questions about dwarven inheritence, such as the previous question about Darwinian-vs-Lamarkian inheritence.  If you can pen up your proletariat beating on wild giant armadillos, and get magically, and profoundly superior baseline dwarves from the practice, that alone is worth something to know about.

This experiment is simply to get raw data, for the most part. Not explicitly to test a hypothesis, though there is in an intrinsic one, in that culling *should* result in multi-generation improvements over time.  However, again, I dont really need a control to show if this is the case or not.  Here's why:

Let's say that inherited traits are PURELY random, with no inheritance whatsoever. The rate of culling will be a linear line. It will never deviate, despite having been done for generations. The rate of negative traits spontaneously appearing  will likewise be flat, etc. (sure, it will be a little jaggy due to the RNG being involved, but the overall confidence zone will occupy a flat horizontal bar on the plot.) 50 generations should silence most noise, and 100 generations should silence nearly all noise. (this project will take a *LONG* time. to expedite the process, I have set baby:0 and child:1. I may need to set child:0.)

However, should there be an inheritance model of any sort, the culling represents a disruption in the equilibrium, and will manifest as a log-like curve over time. The exact fitting of that curve will give valuable insights into the impact of that inheritance model on resulting offspring. Those insights pave the way for more structured experiments. These kinds of experiments and studies are known as "Basic Research." From the data collected, better questions can be asked. (Such as experiments that involve controls: Does "beating up poor giant armadillos" positively influence the inheritence rate curve? etc.)

So, to collect useful data, all I have to really do is religiously cull offspring, and studiously label and track all births and unions, then process the data at the end of phase 2.

Like all science, this kind of experiment is *INTENDED* to be repeated by other people looking to verify and refine the data, and to be repeated as a baseline for other empirical studies.

Again, since one can just dump all the pref pages of all the dwarves that have EVER been members of their fortresses, and many members have multigenerational fortresses already, all I have to do is ask politely, and I can get a guaranteed contamination-free reference to plot curves against without adding further complications to an already highly ambitious project.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Fluoman on July 01, 2013, 02:05:10 pm
Relevant? (http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=761)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 01, 2013, 03:12:14 pm
LOL!

That is definately the way clinical studies for psychoactive medications are conducted!
(Seriously, many of them *barely* score better than placebo in double blind! That's right, giving people sugar pills is nearly as effective! [When they think they are getting real mdicine])

In any case, this is more raw research than directed single variable experiment. It is intended to enable said directed experiments, by establishing some boundries, and providing testable observations.

(You shouldn't just make hypotheses out of thin air, you see.)

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Red Line on July 02, 2013, 01:59:01 am
This is like Mendel meets Mengele.
You are amazing, OP.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 02:28:18 am
I would like to ask Sutramaine how he gets raw attribute scores, rather than just general trait descriptors. That would be useful information for determining what the standard deviation is for the random skew, should it exist, and would help to derive exactly what kind of computation is performed when evaluating the attribute data of the parents when producing an offspring.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Drazinononda on July 02, 2013, 02:50:28 am
Quote from: wierd on July 02, 2013, 02:28:18 am
I would like to ask Sutramaine how he gets raw attribute scores, rather than just general trait descriptors. That would be useful information for determining what the standard deviation is for the random skew, should it exist, and would help to derive exactly what kind of computation is performed when evaluating the attribute data of the parents when producing an offspring.

I'm not Sutremaine, but: doesn't Dwarf Therapist give numerical attribute displays? I haven't used it in a few years but that's what I remember, at least.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 02:59:13 am
It does for skill points, and mental attribs, but I dont see any for toughness, disease resistance, etc.

I see him listing raw numbers for attrib increases from his various military experiments, and am just curious how he gets his numbers.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Bdthemag on July 02, 2013, 03:01:25 am
Wierd, you are literally the dwarf fortress version of Hitler. This is frankly amazing.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 03:11:07 am
No no, Not Hitler, Goebbels. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels) Goebbels was the originator of the "master race" rhetoric, being the head of the propaganda department for the Nazi party. Hitler was just the furor who gave it the go ahead.

This is more a combination of Mengele and Goebbels though. Perhaps with a little taste of SS and Stazi thrown in later, once the military training begins.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Grim Portent on July 02, 2013, 03:53:25 am
Current observations are indicative that dwarfs do inherit traits correct?

I have a mind to establish a research facility to carry out the tests as well, I'm between forts and have a lot of free time at the moment.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 04:06:40 am
Hard to tell. I have been noticing a LOT of spontaneous trait generation. That's why I would LOVE to see the raw numbers.

Take for instance, Group K.

They JUST had a darling baby boy that is the epitome of eugenic purity.  His older sister however? Inspiration for birth control. Here, observe:

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/GroupK_Gen1_Cull1_zpsaed94d6e.png~original) <--Cull
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/GroupK_Gen1_Unit1_zpsf7840266.png~original) <--KEEP!

I would REALLY like to see the raw score numbers.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Deepblade on July 02, 2013, 09:51:43 am
Dwarf Therapist will show you. I hovered over the attribute in question on a dwarf and it showed me a current/maximum layout. I am using the unofficial 20.4 version though.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Repseki on July 02, 2013, 10:46:06 am
"Her upper body is gone".

I assume that is your doing?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Button on July 02, 2013, 11:42:14 am
The branch with the exact numbers for attributes can be found here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122968).
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on July 02, 2013, 12:25:28 pm
I also have custom grid views set up. Windows -> Docks -> Grid Views opens the grid views box. You can't edit the default ones, so you have to make new ones. The existing views are comprehensive enough to copy and subsequently modify, a process which is fairly easy but involves perusing a lot of different lists.

The one I use for XP / attribute numbers shows all combat-relevant skills, plus Strength, Agility, Toughness, Endurance, Disease Resistance, Recuperation, and Willpower. I could add more, but selecting military based on stats is complicated enough with just those seven.

PS. Please stay away from the Nazi talk. Going down that road has gotten topics closed.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Grim Portent on July 02, 2013, 01:28:50 pm
Quote from: wierd on July 02, 2013, 04:06:40 am
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/GroupK_Gen1_Cull1_zpsaed94d6e.png~original) <--Cull

That is truly a pathetic specimen. The durability is desirable but if it's clumsy it won't be great at dodging I think so it can't even be used as a meatshield, and oh dear lord look at it's mental traits. Both of these are the offspring of the same parents? Odd.  ???

Perhaps there's recessive traits in the game.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Saraias on July 02, 2013, 03:26:54 pm
From the transcript of DF Talk #21:

Quote
Threetoe:   Ok, the next question comes from Connor: Is there a set period where the dwarfette is pregnant, how random is it? how similar is the baby to the parents? If two master blacksmiths have a child will it be born a master blacksmith or will the parents teach it the trade as it grows up? What if the baby just wants to be a dancer?
Toady:   (chuckles) So right now I think the pregnancy period is kind of goofy. I think it's always, and I could be wrong about the exact numbers, but it's always three seasons for a civilised critter, and less for an animal, which is of course completely goofy. It's not randomised at all, and that's just got to be put in the raws. Just one number, goes to the raws, everything's better for everybody, but it just hasn't happened yet for whatever reason. The baby does have a fake little genome thing that makes the baby similar to their parents just physically, in terms of their appearance, but there's no kind of skill proclivities or talents or anything passed down, aside from however much attributes capture that. There are some attribute numbers that are, if I remember correctly, have a genetic link to them, although I don't 100 % remember that. Until we get more stuff like that, and we do anything with child rearing or education or anything that the child is free to be a dancer and has no sort of blacksmithiness to it. That'll change over time, probably, but we haven't really planned out a course for that.

This answer doesn't really enlighten us about the nuance and details of the "fake little genome thing," but it's topical. I'm interested in the trend results from your test population, wierd. Thanks for taking on the effort, creepy process narrative aside.

One thing that I've often contemplated is a series of savescums starting right before a birth, to note the characteristics of child outcomes. The actual traits of the child only manifest at the time of birth. (sex, skin/hair/eye color, preferences, etc. will vary to some extent or another each time any given pregnancy concludes) Done enough times, it could generate a reasonable sample of which traits from the same parents in the same pregnancy occur at what frequency. Questions of recessives may be testable similarly with generations where grand- or great-grand-parents were fortress residents or otherwise have available information.

WRT behavior, rather than inheritance: I expect that your findings on relational closeness when forming "lover" relationships will match our current assumptions expressed in other related threads, but am definitely interested in any data you preserve for couples that advance more quickly or slowly through relationship phases than the average, or for what factors come into play with grudges.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 03:50:24 pm
Quote from: Repseki on July 02, 2013, 10:46:06 am
"Her upper body is gone".

I assume that is your doing?

What!? I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED I say! Why, to imagine such a completely unfounded accusation against the character of my personage!

Most certainly not! I would never dirty my hands with the base act of murdering dwarven children! (I just pull the perfectly clean and sanitized lever that drops them into the zombie infested pit of death. The filthy zombies do all the dirty work! I'm an administrator!)

*lol!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: krenshala on July 02, 2013, 05:11:36 pm
Quote from: Saraias on July 02, 2013, 03:26:54 pm
One thing that I've often contemplated is a series of savescums starting right before a birth, to note the characteristics of child outcomes. The actual traits of the child only manifest at the time of birth. (sex, skin/hair/eye color, preferences, etc. will vary to some extent or another each time any given pregnancy concludes) Done enough times, it could generate a reasonable sample of which traits from the same parents in the same pregnancy occur at what frequency. Questions of recessives may be testable similarly with generations where grand- or great-grand-parents were fortress residents or otherwise have available information.

You know, this sounds like something that could be done pretty easily if you have a VM set up with DF installed and saved at the point in question.  You just load up the VM, start DF, note the attributes of the child, nuke the VM, reload it from your backup and repeat as needed.  Way faster than traditional savescumming, anyway.

This, of course, assumes you have a system cable of running your OS in a VM on your OS, and the virtual system still has enough draltha-power to run DF. ;)

I guess I should document the relationships of my dwarves starting now, since there are only six (one just died, but you can read about that in the thread I posted last night, re tantrums).  I'll have plenty of opportunity to note who gets grunges and such when the goblin army shows up (at war with them at embark), gets massacred by the undead horde (necro tower about 5 world tiles away), and hangs around outside my front gate preventing me from foraging the surface for trees and other useful stuff.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 05:26:35 pm
I have a 3.2 ghz i7, with 12gb of ram. It dual boots linux (debian) and win7.

I could set up a kqemu install on the debian side, and simulate another debian install inside that, with minimal issues.

However, the current set of research materials on my plate are sufficient to keep me busy for quite some time. I won't discourage others from taking the plunge though.

Using a VM with virtualization support and multicore awareness would let you concievably run a for-fun game of DF outside the sandbox, and a resettable research instance inside at the same time, with resources divvied up sanely.

(Even with LAA enabled for DF, it can only allocate 3gb of ram, and one processor. So, a 12gb system with 3 cores can set the affinities so that system software runs on core 1, DF (native) runs on core 2, and the VM runs on cores 3 and 4, allowing the virtual system to have "system" running on virtualized cpu 1, and DF running on virtualized cpu 2), with 4gb of ram allocated for each.)

The usual culprit with DF unresponsiveness is IO saturation or cpu core saturation. Usually core saturation.

Title: Re: reproductive research project ready to begin
Post by: skyte100 on July 02, 2013, 05:37:36 pm
Quote from: wierd on June 25, 2013, 11:43:47 pm
I don't see a migration cap. Just a population cap (which institutes birth control), and a child percentage cap.

At the risk of repeating what someone else said, the population cap controls immigrants, not births.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 02, 2013, 05:40:14 pm
I have it set up properly now. No new migrants for 2 years. Several births.

Lots and lots of culls. Only a handful of Gen1 offspring. I really am going to have to set baby:0 and child:0, so that I get adult dwarves I think.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Halceon on July 03, 2013, 02:47:17 am
I'm enjoying this project
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: NRDL on July 03, 2013, 03:18:54 am
PTW
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 03, 2013, 03:35:54 am
I am looking at the therapist numbers here, and am unsure how to interpret them.

I see two sets of numbers for each physical attribute. How should I be trying to read these?  As presented, they look like a ratio presented as a fraction, but each dwarf has a different high/low?  When treated as a decimal ratio of 1, they make more sense than in the fashion presented, is that the way I should be reading it?  Closer to 1 means higher physical attribute, and closer to 0 means lower physical attribute, with a .5 being the median of mediocrity?

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 04:17:34 am
Quote from: Grim Portent on July 02, 2013, 03:53:25 am
Current observations are indicative that dwarfs do inherit traits correct?

I have a mind to establish a research facility to carry out the tests as well, I'm between forts and have a lot of free time at the moment.

I do not believe dwarfs inherit traits. I created a fort to do some research into attribute inheritance which is not completed yet, but since I have the data already I decided to look into the traits to check whether they are inheritable or not.

Setup:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Average Traits:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Trait Histogram:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Since there is alot more going on with attributes, I still have to gather some additional data before showing something. I am happy to share the RAW data if anyone is interested.

PS.: Atom-Smashing 10000 dwarven babys will cause DF to crash every time. So if you want to gather more then one sample in a given fort you should savescum after exporting and smash the mother right before birth. As you might imagine, FPS are not great with so many dwarfs.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 03, 2013, 04:27:53 am
Interesting approach--  increase litter size, shorten lifespan.

How many generations did you allow to run?

Still, I too am not seeing much of a relationship between parents and offspring that would account for attributes they are born with, but with a much smaller sample size.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 04:38:40 am
It was just one generation. I just want to see what the game does without major interference on my part. I just shortened the lifespan so I donīt have to worry about age when selecting breeding pairs. Unlike with traits, the attributes appear to depend on the parents more but I want to do a few more litters so I can be reasonably sure of my conclusions before posting anything.

EDIT: Multiple generations are not possible with this setup as you can not get rid of the excess babies without major effort or without crashing the game. Also, I donīt think the fort would survive long when it is haunted by 10000 baby ghosts.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 03, 2013, 04:47:44 am
Try using LAA flags on DF.  It can then allocate 3gb of address space on a 64bit platform, instead of 2gb.  May help with the absurd baby explosion rate.

Part of the experiment is to track attribute inheritence over several generations, using the culling rate as a metric. if I set the litter size higher for awhile, it would allow me to get more offspring per popping, and thus have larger generational populations after the aggressive culling.  I am currently worried that the culling rate will be too high to sustain the fortress, as it is currently above 50% of all offspring produced!

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 06:27:31 am
I got some discouraging results regarding attribute inheritance.
Setup is same as before.
Quote from: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 04:17:34 am
Setup:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attribute means:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There first appeared to be an obvious correlation between the parents and their children, but that this was not due to them inheriting their parents attributes, but because all dwarfs attributes are chosen from the same distributions. As you can see the mean attribute values of the children are virtually identical, suggesting that there is no inheritance of attributes. I generated a different world for Parents/Litter 4 to make sure, that the attribute generation does not depend on the world.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Snaake on July 03, 2013, 06:51:29 am
Another reason to use [CHILD:0] instead of 1 would be that in another recent thread, it was pointed out that abilities rust as well, not just skills (someone was wondering why their children were becoming dumber with age). 1 year isn't really a long time for ability rust I guess, but it's still a systemic error that could prevent or slow down the generational upwards trend in abilities that I guess you're trying to achieve/prove/test.

And about litter size, even just setting your dwarves to always have twins (that pop out fully grown!) should almost double your chances of good kids. Or quadruplets. Or if you still have a baseline save with the groups established but without actual breeding done, a larger litter size accelerated trial   AFAIK you still need to balance culling with the parents' mental health (even if the only bad thought is the death of the child, no rotting or anything)?


Quote from: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 06:27:31 am
I got some discouraging results regarding attribute inheritance.
...
Attribute means:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There first appeared to be an obvious correlation between the parents and their children, but that this was not due to them inheriting their parents attributes, but because all dwarfs attributes are chosen from the same distributions. As you can see the mean attribute values of the children are virtually identical, suggesting that there is no inheritance of attributes. I generated a different world for Parents/Litter 4 to make sure, that the attribute generation does not depend on the world.

Wow, discouraging indeed. I would suggest checking whether your initial 7 also conform to the same dwarven racial attribute distribution (using the standard RPG definition of "race", not the IRL one; i.e. species, not breed)? I think there's a command in dfhack to embark with more than 7 dwarves that sounds like it would be useful for testing this (I really haven't used dfhack basically at all, so don't actually know). Immigrants that are historical persons could very possibly have their stats skewed according to what skills they're generated with.

(I was also going to suggest testing a version where you play matchmaker for your dwarves, trying for a couple with high strength etc., but I guess that would still give the same results, since your attribute for each stat are identical for all the litters)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Jurojin00 on July 03, 2013, 07:25:59 am
Quote from: Snaake on July 03, 2013, 06:51:29 am
I would suggest checking whether your initial 7 also conform to the same dwarven racial attribute distribution (using the standard RPG definition of "race", not the IRL one; i.e. species, not breed)? I think there's a command in dfhack to embark with more than 7 dwarves that sounds like it would be useful for testing this (I really haven't used dfhack basically at all, so don't actually know). Immigrants that are historical persons could very possibly have their stats skewed according to what skills they're generated with.

All of the previous parents were migrants so I just smashed the other migrant couples and waited for the starting 7 to produce children. The result is the same unfortunately.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on July 03, 2013, 10:30:30 am
Quote from: wierd on July 03, 2013, 03:35:54 am
I see two sets of numbers for each physical attribute. How should I be trying to read these?  As presented, they look like a ratio presented as a fraction, but each dwarf has a different high/low?
Not 100% sure where you're looking, but each attribute has two numbers. The first is the current stat, the second is the max stat. A dwarf's maximum in a stat is either its starting stat + the racial average or 2x the starting stat, whichever is higher. Urist McSlowpoke will have something like 503/1400 (503 current, 1400 max, has gained 3 Agility), and Urist McSpeedy will have something like 1268/2400 (1268 current, 2400 max, has gained 68 Agility). All dwarves will have respectable max stats for Focus and Spatial Sense due to the racial average of 1500, and Agility will tend to be the lowest due to the average of 900.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 03, 2013, 10:44:50 am
gotcha.  that just seems a strange way to store and track the data, when a float between 0 and 1, with weighted algos would make more sense, at least to me anyway.  That way calculations made using them would be floating point ops, and not need to tie up ALUs on the general purpose side of the CPU. (EG, could use SSE* and pals) It would also use simpler program code.

but meh.

I am agreeing with my recent conspirator however; I am not seeing any real correlations jumping out at me.

I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies, the result of having a large and statistically improbable sampling of superior dwarves would still make for a good succession game on this world later.

If anything, the fact that this is basically a lesson in cat herding just makes the process even MORE infamous.

If nothing else, we can still use the test apparatus to answer other reproductive questions, like at what degree of familial separation marriage becomes allowable again, and how skin and hair color are inherited, weather fattness is heritable, etc.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: krenshala on July 03, 2013, 10:59:51 am
Quote from: wierd on July 03, 2013, 03:35:54 am
I am looking at the therapist numbers here, and am unsure how to interpret them.

I see two sets of numbers for each physical attribute. How should I be trying to read these?  As presented, they look like a ratio presented as a fraction, but each dwarf has a different high/low?  When treated as a decimal ratio of 1, they make more sense than in the fashion presented, is that the way I should be reading it?  Closer to 1 means higher physical attribute, and closer to 0 means lower physical attribute, with a .5 being the median of mediocrity?
I believe that is the "current/max for that dwarf" attribute value.  So, 2584/4000 would mean he has an attribute score of 2584 of a possible 4000 (for him).

* And, I see someone else already answer this better. ;)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on July 03, 2013, 11:08:21 am
Yeah, I was just using Agility as an example of a particular stat. A dwarf has lots of stats (or attributes; I seem to be using either word interchangeably), and each one has its own current and maximum number.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 03, 2013, 11:40:28 am
I just meant that making each dwarf have variant max values means you perform a lot of checks on the data before you can even process it that are logic checks, not math checks.  It would make more sense to abstract that as a mathematical threshold by assigning variables: the first as a float value between 0 and 1, and the second an 8 bit flag variable to store some information about the standard deviation that dwarf belongs in (which would dynamically set the max value using pure math), etc.

That way the main ALUs in the CPU would be freed up from checking things like EvaluateDwarf(CurrentStat,MaxStat,MentalImplicationMatrix,CurrentActivity) which would need the general logic abilities of the CPU.  It could instead be done as a pure math operation with SSE or the FPU instead, for a rather profound increase in execution, given the absurd number of times it gets fired.

It would also use significantly less memory.

but, Meh.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Snaake on July 03, 2013, 12:41:14 pm
Quote from: wierd on July 03, 2013, 10:44:50 am
...I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies, the result of having a large and statistically improbable sampling of superior dwarves would still make for a good succession game on this world later.
...

Hm. A tower of evil, inhabited by zombies, a large part of them children, surrounded by a massive fortress still inhabited by their physically and mentally superior parents, siblings, nephews and nieces (and so on for however many generations you go on). Were the live dwarves twisted by the evil in the tower, or are they so evil that they have enslaved the necromancers for their own purposes?

Very dwarfy. Would be a cool place to go as an adventurer, once fortress retiring is in?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Burckhart on July 04, 2013, 10:44:28 pm
So Toady said:

Quote
There are some attribute numbers that are, if I remember correctly, have a genetic link to them, although I don't 100 % remember that.

What kind of "genetic link" could that be? I don't think it's some kind of recessive gene (since it would be more logical to put some basic attribute inheritance in first), but maybe some attributes add up from generation to generation? Jurojin00's data shows obviosly only one generation, and there is no hint towards some attribute being different. But maybe with the same experiment done in a much smaller scale but for several generations, one or more attributes would stand out? Or maybe the OP will find something by eliminating the weak, since the random negative attributes are out of the way? I don't know, but I can't wait for more results. And for Toady coding some genetics, for that matter - that would go great with new different dwarven populations.

On a related note, any new details hair color etc.? I'd really like some copper dwarves.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: PDF urist master on July 08, 2013, 09:10:19 pm
i don't know much about recessive genes, but i do know that breeding partners that have certain traits are more likely to pass those traits on.

all of my female ruthurers are gigantic and most of their children are too. this suggests that traits have a high chance to be passed on, but not always.

i'm sure the males also factor into this. one of my males is skinny and i am seeing some children with skinny on it.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Halceon on July 09, 2013, 03:16:37 am
It could be that genetics currently only affect the appearance traits and whatever depends on those.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: kero42 on July 19, 2013, 04:30:09 am
Well this is a rather interesting read, and I hope that you are at least able to learn something about appearance traits and attributes. Regardless of whether there is any connection between parent traits and child traits, it'll be good to see the results of this rather rigorous and well presented experiment.  PTW
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: EvilBob22 on July 19, 2013, 04:38:18 pm
Quote from: wierd on July 03, 2013, 10:44:50 am
I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies
This, sir, is a beautiful quote in a beautiful thread, I have to sig it...
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on July 19, 2013, 04:44:01 pm
LOL!

Sadly, I haven't had the time to properly invest in the experiment lately. This weekend too will be a bust, as I have been conned into doing MOAR family discount IT work.  Oh well, at least I *am* being paid for it.

Still, I want a fortress filled with quality dwarves, without cheating. That means disposal of the undesirables. (Evil laughter)
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 04, 2013, 05:06:33 pm
Picked up more playtime today.

Amusing fact#1:  Necromancer tower is DIRECTLY above a magma lake, several Z down. Theoretically possible to drop the ENTIRE tower inside.
Amusing Fact#2: Said magma lake leads directly to the magma sea.

Contemplating the addition of a "Jettison!" lever...
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 05, 2013, 12:35:26 am
Culled 6 children today!

Started the military training machine. One of the 4 squads is inactive, while its members whoop it up in the dining halls. (mommy, daddy, and friends of the dearly departed, and all. Very unhappy. they need it to avoid going tantrumy!)

They seem to be recovering from their loss, so with any luck, this frequent and relentless baby murder will make them numb to all worldly pains in short order.  We'll see.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Tevish Szat on August 05, 2013, 01:10:46 am
Increasing litter size so dwarves often have twins/triplets would seem to be useful, getting you more survivors (assuming multiple births are rolled separately, which would be interesting on its own) to seed the next generation.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: flameaway on August 05, 2013, 11:25:41 am
I really need to stop reading the forum and actually go play DF...
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Button on August 05, 2013, 11:46:27 am
Quote from: wierd on August 04, 2013, 05:06:33 pm
Amusing fact#1:  Necromancer tower is DIRECTLY above a magma lake, several Z down. Theoretically possible to drop the ENTIRE tower inside.
Amusing Fact#2: Said magma lake leads directly to the magma sea.

Contemplating the addition of a "Jettison!" lever...

DOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOIT
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: kero42 on August 05, 2013, 07:18:41 pm
Quote from: Button on August 05, 2013, 11:46:27 am
DOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOITDOIT

Lol, I was going to say exactly that, but as you beat me to the punch I'll just have to say that I concur with your suggestion. Seriously, with the necros out of the way, that lava could be useful for garbage/corpse disposal, though then I suppose you'd have to engrave slabs for the dead instead. Decisions, decisions.

Quote from: Tevish Szat on August 05, 2013, 01:10:46 am
Increasing litter size so dwarves often have twins/triplets would seem to be useful, getting you more survivors (assuming multiple births are rolled separately, which would be interesting on its own) to seed the next generation.

I also agree with this. I suppose it could make family lines more convoluted to track though, which may or may not be a problem.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 05, 2013, 07:31:46 pm
Considering that I am culling over 50% of children born, that might be necessary actually, at least at first.


The jettison lever will require a considerable redesign of the fortress layout, as 6 floors of fortress will have to be vacated and relocated to accommodate the ejection chute.

Also, because natural floors are involved, it will act like a magma piston, requiring additional safety systems to be installed.

I will give it some thought... just one of those things an adventurer exploring the ruins can get to have fun with!
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Snaake on August 06, 2013, 03:16:05 pm
Quote from: flameaway on August 05, 2013, 11:25:41 am
I really need to stop reading the forum and actually go play DF...

Likewise.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: kero42 on August 12, 2013, 05:39:42 pm
Lol, I completely forgot about this thread until you mentioned it in that thread about minecart baby killings. How are things going so far?
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 12, 2013, 05:45:01 pm
Real life intrudes. :(

My house was damaged by high winds and hail recently, and I have been sorting out the "contractor" situation.

Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: kero42 on August 12, 2013, 10:28:38 pm
Quote from: wierd on August 12, 2013, 05:45:01 pm
Real life intrudes. :(

My house was damaged by high winds and hail recently, and I have been sorting out the "contractor" situation.

That sounds unfortunate, my condolences.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 12, 2013, 10:44:34 pm
Well, considering it was golfball size hail with 100mph sustained winds for over an hour (the kind that levels houses on the coast), I think the damage I sustained (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/2013-07-24084030_zpsdd8923d0.jpg) is pretty minor, especially in light of what occured (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/2013-07-24084650_zpsb941c473.jpg) right next door, and the fact that mainstreet looked like a riot went through town.

Order has been restored, power back on, all that jazz.  Recent torrential rains have stressed the local insurance companies extensively with flooding claims, but thankfully I did not get that particular present from mother nature. It did however, delay my insurer from delivering my itemized claim form. I barely got it last week. I am currently sizing up different local contractors.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: Sutremaine on August 13, 2013, 06:32:08 am
Unless my sense of perspective is way off, that looks like a very close call for next door.
Title: Re: reproductive research project **NOW UNDERWAY!**
Post by: wierd on August 13, 2013, 06:49:05 am
No, your sense of perspective is not wrong. You can see the exact same tree in the background of the picture of my wobbly porch awning.

It was a very large juniper tree. Blown out of the ground, and nearly landing on their roof.

Not pictured was the "Driveby shooting" appearance of the neighbor's northern exposure. Mother nature apparently hangs out with the bad kids.