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Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Mod Releases => Topic started by: HelloLion on August 24, 2014, 01:23:18 pm

Title: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 24, 2014, 01:23:18 pm
KOBOLD CAMP 2014
(http://i.imgur.com/eLlfFtX.png)


Kobold Camp is a mod so classic that many (myself included) consider it to be an integral part of the overall Dwarf Fortress experience. As such, when I discovered that it was not yet playable for DF2014 I felt I had no choice but to update the mod myself. On doing so, I discovered that over the last several years and incarnations, Kobold Camp had become considerably less primitive than the mod I remembered playing and loving in the past, so I decided to reboot the mod to make Kobolds primitive whelps again! I hope you will enjoy it!

For those of you who have never played it before, this mod is HARD !!EXTRA FUN!! You are unlikely to live through your first siege. Kobolds die from papercuts compared to Dwarves. It is hard to accumulate any significant stockpile of weapons or armor other than wooden clubs and pointy sticks. Humans, Dwarves, and Elves will be coming to wipe you out. On top of that, this mod has been minimally tested, so finding bugs is to be expected.

Features:
Kobolds cannot work metal or most stone, nor dig into said things.
Chert, Quartz, and Obsidian will be found in small pockets in soil and may be used by Kobolds primarily for making stone weapons (Kobolds cannot do masonry at all).
Three new workshops:
     Trap Shop - wooden mechanisms and special (primitive) trap components for Kobolds!
     Bushcraft Workshop - bone and tooth weapons and more
     Training Grounds - the only advantage Kobolds get in this big, scary world. Allows you to train weapon skills with relative ease.
Human, Dwarf, and Elf sieges!
Trade with Goblins, Reptilemen, Troglodytes, and more!

[DOWNLOAD_FROM_DFFD] (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9503) (version 1.61)

HOW TO INSTALL:
Open a freshly unpacked/installed version of dwarf fortress and navigate to the 'raw' folder.
Drag all files to 'raw/objects'.
You're done!


Version History
note: all versions up to 1.6 were developed by other authors. I have merely kept the version numbering system that was started by them.

---ver 1.61---
-Changed the readme to be the format that git/github like (README.md) and cleaned up the readme also
-added some leather armor reactions, moved the fur bed reaction, to Bushcraft Workshop
-added bone cages and statues to Bushcraft workshop
-continuing to tweak on entity_itemthief (aka Kobold Trading partners) [still needs work and testing]
-added the ability to extract blood and brew it into alcohol (idea from Masterwork DF by Meph)
-made weapon stones more effective (thanks, AJC!)
-made vermin edible and added wickerworking (thanks to milo christiansen, creator of Rubble)

---ver 1.6---
-Ported to 40.09
-Uploaded to Github to make mod development more community oriented
-Reworked mod to return Kobold life to a more primitive state, including:
   -Removed metal use
   -Reworked and simplified weapons significatnly
   -Removed the minecart analogue
   -Condensced and simplified workshops
   -Added the use of chert, obsidian, and quartzite back in
   -Disallowed many jobs (masonry, smithing, etc)
   -Made Kobolds [ITEM_THIEF] (trade wtih Goblins, sieges from Humans, Elves, Dwarves)
   -Gave Kobolds new trading partners (Troglodytes, Frogmen, and more!)



Community Development
In addition to all that, I'm also opening development of this mod (which really, belongs to everyone) to the community by moving development to github! You can fork your own versions or comment on the forks of others, and those forks can be incorporated into the main branch of the mod if they're good and people like them! Yay!

You can also download .zip files of the bleeding edge version of the mod (whichever version is listed as "in progress" in the version history)

GITHUB IS HERE (https://github.com/HelloLion/KoboldCamp)


Issues:
Kobolds taken by moods still want workshops they can't normally use.
Mining appears twice in some skill lists.
Many now useless workshops (mason's workshop, metalsmith's forge) can still be queued up to be built (they just won't be useful).
Trading partners for Kobolds aren't guaranteed to work correctly as they have not been fully tested and were hastily implemented
Who knows?

If you find more issues when playing, or have suggestions, let me know (or fork the git repo!).

Credits for this mod:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.09][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 24, 2014, 02:22:15 pm
Reserving second post for a tutorial to come later.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.09][Community Development!]
Post by: Ruludos on August 24, 2014, 06:23:01 pm
Firing it up now.

Bring it on, world.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 24, 2014, 09:03:03 pm
Awesome! Looking forward to hearing what you think.

Also, in case anyone is wondering, Kobold Camp seems to have no issues running in 40.10 that I can see.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 24, 2014, 09:14:47 pm
That... Was painful. I thought I could maybe beat the elf siege with a 2vs1 number bonus, but no, the elves decorated my area with kobold blood. I killed one elf. ONE. One of my dwarves, with great training and steel armor, can solo a full invasion. Man, it must suck to be a kobold full time. Nice challenge, but the saddest loss !!victory!! I've ever had. Well, that, or when I somehow opened my pit of monsters into my fortress.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.09][Community Development!]
Post by: Ruludos on August 24, 2014, 10:09:20 pm
Spoiler: Thlukriris (click to show/hide)

Obviously, I was unable to gauge the capabilities of kobolds in combat, although the more mundane uses of the new workshops are quite welcome.

I'd like to make a request. (I could simply do this through github, I suppose, but it's a new interface I'll have to learn, and discussing changes beforehand is always a good idea.) The addition of simple leather armor to the Bushcraft Workshop would be easy and allow consistent armor use for kobold militaries. Leather Armor, High Boots and Banded Skirts aren't always available, and would be a solid (if poor compared to dwarven armor) set. It drives me crazy to be unable to armor them with something.

Spoiler: The Reactions I Use (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: mangulwort on August 24, 2014, 11:05:31 pm
Thank you for "crediting me for my hard work"  ;D You did a good job! I guess I will try to add bits from my kobold mod to this mod on github. How does github work?
(edit)
Sorry but why do kobolds live in cities?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: (int) magicMissile on August 25, 2014, 12:17:19 am
IT HAS BEEN TOO LONG WITHOUT MY FIX.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 25, 2014, 05:03:40 am
If you want anything from the MDF kobolds, feel free to copy stuff as you like. :)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 25, 2014, 04:09:14 pm
Quote from: Ruludos on August 24, 2014, 10:09:20 pm
Spoiler: Thlukriris (click to show/hide)

Obviously, I was unable to gauge the capabilities of kobolds in combat, although the more mundane uses of the new workshops are quite welcome.

I'd like to make a request. (I could simply do this through github, I suppose, but it's a new interface I'll have to learn, and discussing changes beforehand is always a good idea.) The addition of simple leather armor to the Bushcraft Workshop would be easy and allow consistent armor use for kobold militaries. Leather Armor, High Boots and Banded Skirts aren't always available, and would be a solid (if poor compared to dwarven armor) set. It drives me crazy to be unable to armor them with something.

Spoiler: The Reactions I Use (click to show/hide)

Glad you're enjoying it already! I'm doing a tutorial camp and taking screenshots right now and I'm just hoping the camp survives long enough for me to show everything I want to show in the tutorial!

As far as the leather armor reactions go, I am not opposed and will be pushing changes to github with these reactions included later.


Quote from: mangulwort on August 24, 2014, 11:05:31 pm
Thank you for "crediting me for my hard work"  ;D You did a good job! I guess I will try to add bits from my kobold mod to this mod on github. How does github work? Also could you include this picture on the first post? I think suits the atmosphere. Its from the Bravemule dwarf fort comic.

(edit)
Sorry but why do kobolds live in cities?

Love the image, will use it gladly.

Be glad to have your help with development on github. I'm not great with it, but here's a link to a tutorial on how to fork a repository and sync that fork:
https://help.github.com/articles/fork-a-repo

Kobolds living in cities was done by the DF2012 authors, I believe so that Kobolds would form societies that would be less likely to die out, and so they'd be visible to the player (which might be an issue with having them in CAVES), honestly though I haven't tried setting them to caves so maybe that should be played with. In any case, I've made it so they don't build any structures in worldgen of significance.

Quote from: Meph on August 25, 2014, 05:03:40 am
If you want anything from the MDF kobolds, feel free to copy stuff as you like. :)

Appreciate the offer! Was planning to poke around in the MDF raws anyway. :)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lagotrope on August 25, 2014, 11:14:38 pm
Excellent, I'm happy to see that someone took this up. I haven't had the free time anymore to really get into re-modding kobold camp like before, so I'm glad that when I get into DF2014 I'll have kobold camp to get into. Thanks a ton, HelloLion.

Quote from: HelloLion on August 25, 2014, 04:09:14 pm
Kobolds living in cities was done by the DF2012 authors, I believe so that Kobolds would form societies that would be less likely to die out, and so they'd be visible to the player (which might be an issue with having them in CAVES), honestly though I haven't tried setting them to caves so maybe that should be played with.

This is correct on both counts, as well as generally making adventure mode more viable as a kobold in some ways. I have absolutely no idea how well kobolds do in caves anymore, since the backend of worldgen has been changed a fair bit from what I hear. In fact, if you perused the 2010-2012 KC versions much, you may find that a lot of my modding was a pile of compromises.

Also, I absolutely approve of rebooting it to primitive levels again. While (if I remember correctly, which I may not) I did manage to keep it relatively primitive (at times), I got way too happy to implement feature after feature, both mine and others' contributions. My point here is that I believe that the mod's charm wasn't just in the primitive level, it was also in its simplicity. It focused on a limited number of existing features to survive, not a large, expanded set of weaker features.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 26, 2014, 12:15:19 pm
Quote from: Lagotrope on August 25, 2014, 11:14:38 pm
Excellent, I'm happy to see that someone took this up. I haven't had the free time anymore to really get into re-modding kobold camp like before, so I'm glad that when I get into DF2014 I'll have kobold camp to get into. Thanks a ton, HelloLion.

Quote from: HelloLion on August 25, 2014, 04:09:14 pm
Kobolds living in cities was done by the DF2012 authors, I believe so that Kobolds would form societies that would be less likely to die out, and so they'd be visible to the player (which might be an issue with having them in CAVES), honestly though I haven't tried setting them to caves so maybe that should be played with.

This is correct on both counts, as well as generally making adventure mode more viable as a kobold in some ways. I have absolutely no idea how well kobolds do in caves anymore, since the backend of worldgen has been changed a fair bit from what I hear. In fact, if you perused the 2010-2012 KC versions much, you may find that a lot of my modding was a pile of compromises.

Also, I absolutely approve of rebooting it to primitive levels again. While (if I remember correctly, which I may not) I did manage to keep it relatively primitive (at times), I got way too happy to implement feature after feature, both mine and others' contributions. My point here is that I believe that the mod's charm wasn't just in the primitive level, it was also in its simplicity. It focused on a limited number of existing features to survive, not a large, expanded set of weaker features.

I'm really glad that you are happy with what I've done and that you understand why I made the changes that I did. I definitely think that overall a lot of your work was great and very useful to me, and I know that you were also working with the work of many other contributors, but I'm glad there's no resentment for me taking steps back in some ways.

I know you said you don't have much time, but if you ever feel like contributing anything I've put the mod on github so your contributions would be very welcome.

Also, if you've been waiting to try DF2014 now's a good time. The current version (40.10) seems to fix the fear problems, which were the biggest lingering problem of the DF2014 release. At this point it's quite stable by Dwarf Fortress standards.



On another note, I've pushed a newer version of Kobold Camp to github for anyone who wants to try it. I'm planning to keep tweaking on a few things before releasing the next true version, but if you want to play with Ruludos's armor suggestions or make cages out of bone, you can download the updated raws from github!
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: milo christiansen on August 27, 2014, 02:56:20 pm
Feel free to lift anything you want from Rubble, it has a very kobold like saurian civ and a bunch of possibly useful industries (better pottery anyone?).
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: AJC on August 27, 2014, 04:53:49 pm
for kobold weapon materials because vanilla obsidian while now able to cut thru flesh leather and wood now since 40.05 lacks the ability to harm metal armor being defeated by even no quality copper armor made me wonder about the other stuff you said.

looking thru the raw you just added max edge value's to quartzite and chert but are lacking defined yield and shear values and so will use the defaults from the stone template, without properly set yield and sheer values you'll find edge weapons made of these won't cut skin and will just make edge weapons made of them club people instead of cutting or tearing anything.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 27, 2014, 07:51:08 pm
Getting ready to embark in a world I just generated now. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 27, 2014, 08:01:29 pm
Quote from: milo christiansen on August 27, 2014, 02:56:20 pm
Feel free to lift anything you want from Rubble, it has a very kobold like saurian civ and a bunch of possibly useful industries (better pottery anyone?).

Thanks! I might very well borrow some ideas from your pottery stuff in particular since I was thinking about pottery already.

Quote from: AJC on August 27, 2014, 04:53:49 pm
for kobold weapon materials because vanilla obsidian while now able to cut thru flesh leather and wood now since 40.05 lacks the ability to harm metal armor being defeated by even no quality copper armor made me wonder about the other stuff you said.

looking thru the raw you just added max edge value's to quartzite and chert but are lacking defined yield and shear values and so will use the defaults from the stone template, without properly set yield and sheer values you'll find edge weapons made of these won't cut skin and will just make edge weapons made of them club people instead of cutting or tearing anything.

Thanks for pointing this out. I feel silly now. I will have this fixed for 1.61

Quote from: Urist McVoyager on August 27, 2014, 07:51:08 pm
Getting ready to embark in a world I just generated now. Wish me luck!

Good luck! Hope the elves are tasty!
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 27, 2014, 09:08:35 pm
Thanks! No elves yet, but I'm already having interesting times just with room layouts. Being unable to dig out stone makes for some twisty housing options.  :P
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 03:39:31 am
I would advise to change all the worldgen profiles to check "visible caves:yes", that way people can embark on caves and get to the caverns, even without digging rock. It really makes for a different embark.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 28, 2014, 01:30:40 pm
Kobold Camp has just been updated to 1.61!

The big change: Wicker!
When I released Kobold Camp I knew I would probably find things I wanted to change right away. One big thing that was lingering over the mod was that I had removed Stalk Wood, an old farmable crop that produced wood, which allowed Kobolds to embark in areas with little to no trees. I wasn't sold on this solution and didn't like the way Stalk Wood worked, so I removed it, but I didn't initially have a replacement for it. Thankfully, many people have offered to let me reuse parts of their mods, including milo christiansen, creator of Rubble. One thing included as an option in Rubble is the ability to create and craft things from Wicker, a concept I immediately loved. So now, Kobolds have a new workshop, the Basketry, where they can process plants like rope reed and pig tails into Wicker, which can be used to craft Wicker Baskets (bins), Wicker Cabinets, Wicker Chests, Wicker Tables, and Wicker Chairs. Wicker will by no means replace wood, but it gives a wood strapped camp another option.

Other changes:
-Changed the readme to be the format that git/github like (README.md) and cleaned up the readme also
-added some leather armor reactions, moved the fur bed reaction, to Bushcraft Workshop
-added bone cages and statues to Bushcraft workshop
-continuing to tweak on entity_itemthief (aka Kobold Trading partners) [still needs work and testing]
-added the ability to extract blood and brew it into alcohol (idea from Masterwork DF by Meph)
-made weapon stones more effective (thanks, AJC!)
-made vermin edible


DOWNLOAD 1.61 (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9503)


Quote from: Meph on August 28, 2014, 03:39:31 am
I would advise to change all the worldgen profiles to check "visible caves:yes", that way people can embark on caves and get to the caverns, even without digging rock. It really makes for a different embark.

I will have to playtest this and see how it works but I am interested. Thanks for the idea.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 28, 2014, 08:26:15 pm
I guess I'll have to redo my copy then. I'll try to set myself visible caves so I can use them instead of having to mine.

Edited to add: You don't need to mod it for the visible caves. There's a worldgen option in the advanced parameters. Anyone can easily get in, scroll down to find it, and change the value from 0 to 1.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 08:47:46 pm
Yes, exactly, thats what I meant. The actual text file is in data/init/worldgen.txt, and HelloLion could set this 0 to 1 by default. At least that was my suggestion. ^^ This way all worldgen in the adv. worldgen have the caves set to visible when you start DF.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 28, 2014, 08:53:38 pm
Okay, it's done. I should be able to find caves to embark in now.

Off to start a new game!

Edited to add: I think that only affects the custom worldgen, not the standard one. Oh well, I'll just have to play that way.

Edit 2: holy carp! An entire stack of bones was converted to short swords. One sword per bone! Nifty.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 29, 2014, 12:48:27 pm
Well, that cave leads to a flooded cavern. After a few levels you'd need a scuba suit to get anywhere. And I lost my leader fighting a giant rat. We took one out, but the second got him and earned a name. I really need to start attaching my trolls to squads instead of letting them sit. It's why I bring them, after all.

On that note: Was it intentional that trolls only cost one Urist? I like it, I just don't think that fits in with the difficulty spike this reboot is aiming for.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 29, 2014, 02:06:53 pm
Trolls cost 1 because they have no pet value in the raws, its not intended.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 29, 2014, 04:17:59 pm
Quote from: Meph on August 29, 2014, 02:06:53 pm
Trolls cost 1 because they have no pet value in the raws, its not intended.

This is correct. The next update to KC will fix this.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 29, 2014, 04:37:12 pm
Not sure if you want it, but I had Photoshop open anyway.

Spoiler: Put that title in your cover image and added same shading, added credits to the pic directly and made it lowered height, so it takes up less space. (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 29, 2014, 04:41:56 pm
Quote from: Meph on August 29, 2014, 04:37:12 pm
Not sure if you want it, but I had Photoshop open anyway.

Spoiler: Put that title in your cover image and added same shading, added credits to the pic directly and made it lowered height, so it takes up less space. (click to show/hide)
Love it! Will update when I'm not on my phone. You are as helpful as you are generous! :)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 29, 2014, 09:45:07 pm
I haven't been using my trolls anyway, yet, so modding them to have a higher value doesn't seem like it'd be too bad for me. I doubt I'll stick with this Camp. I'm more likely to go looking for a better cave.

I think instead of packing so many goods, I'm going to pack excess adult animals and just butcher them to hell and back for the supplies. Enough to arm, armor and feed my camp. We could just forage for the plants to brew alcohol.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 29, 2014, 10:13:40 pm
I always take alcohol out of habit, but I think I might start just foraging to make alcohol. I am playing with troll value adjusted right now, it's a nice challenge. Trolls cost 16, so not a small decision.

Oh, and if you don't like your camp, just wait for an elf siege, it won't take long ;)
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 29, 2014, 11:23:09 pm
I didn't check my neighbors. It's entirely possible not to have Elves as neighbors. In my first world, I didn't have any human neighbors either.

I might just bring animals on my next embark, and the skills to use them. Some hunting dogs for taking out animals, a few trolls for defense against worse things.

Trolls can't be armed and armored in this one, can they?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on August 30, 2014, 08:27:58 am
No, trolls cant be armored, neither can they in MDF. Its Ogres I use, not those puny trolls. ;) (Because vanilla DF has trolls as goblin pets, not kobold pets. I am surprised to see them used here) But 16 seems a bit low, considering that a cow costs about 150.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 30, 2014, 09:23:30 am
Right, d'oy. And yeah, I was thinking of the value being up in the hundreds. At least two hundred, given the usefulness of trolls as weapons.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 30, 2014, 10:42:11 pm
This all animal run is going better. I grabbed a bunch of yaks for slaughter, armed a squad of three with swords and leggings, and ran into a human tribe down in the cave. Things got fun when a Troll killed a human, gained a name, and killed a stray dog, which lead to the squad of three attacking and killing said troll. We've found water in the cavern, so now we just have to move down there and turtle up for a while.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lagotrope on August 31, 2014, 04:33:57 am
So, I did end up getting into KC a fair bit, and I've ran a couple forts that went/are going past 8+ years. One thing I've noticed though, and this might have just been poor luck, is that no one is having any kids. It seems like kobolds can become lovers, but not once have I had a marriage or offspring - has there been any confirmation of recent KC versions having offspring?

Granted, I lowered the pop cap (not strict cap, which was left at 220) to 20 on my second largish fort, which is going on year 8 and only has 3 pairs of lovers.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on August 31, 2014, 02:37:34 pm
Quote from: Meph on August 30, 2014, 08:27:58 am
No, trolls cant be armored, neither can they in MDF. Its Ogres I use, not those puny trolls. ;) (Because vanilla DF has trolls as goblin pets, not kobold pets. I am surprised to see them used here) But 16 seems a bit low, considering that a cow costs about 150.

I actually think cows are overpriced. I am considering an update to this mod that will overhaul agriculture and would expand livestock significantly. I don't want to over complicate things, but considering how important farming is to Kobolds I feel like it would be nice to be able to make decisions about what kind of livestock you're buying. Do you want a meat cow, a dairy cow, or a cow that can do both decently well and costs a bit more than the other two? that sort of thing. Anyway, 16 is perhaps a bit low, but it's hard to make effective use of trolls without getting a decent sized population of them. You have to both breed and train them, after all, to really have an effective resource. Buying two trolls at the onset won't help you much. I want the cost of trolls to be such that having 20 of them is virtually impossible, but it's reasonable to embark with 4-6 of them, if you're willing to limit your other livestock purchases.

Quote from: Urist McVoyager on August 30, 2014, 09:23:30 am
Right, d'oy. And yeah, I was thinking of the value being up in the hundreds. At least two hundred, given the usefulness of trolls as weapons.

See my reply to Meph, above.

Quote from: Urist McVoyager on August 30, 2014, 10:42:11 pm
This all animal run is going better. I grabbed a bunch of yaks for slaughter, armed a squad of three with swords and leggings, and ran into a human tribe down in the cave. Things got fun when a Troll killed a human, gained a name, and killed a stray dog, which lead to the squad of three attacking and killing said troll. We've found water in the cavern, so now we just have to move down there and turtle up for a while.

Sounds great! Is this with ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE? I am trying to successfully find a cave with that turned on but I keep having too much !FUN! (and I haven't had much time to play).

Quote from: Lagotrope on August 31, 2014, 04:33:57 am
So, I did end up getting into KC a fair bit, and I've ran a couple forts that went/are going past 8+ years. One thing I've noticed though, and this might have just been poor luck, is that no one is having any kids. It seems like kobolds can become lovers, but not once have I had a marriage or offspring - has there been any confirmation of recent KC versions having offspring?

Granted, I lowered the pop cap (not strict cap, which was left at 220) to 20 on my second largish fort, which is going on year 8 and only has 3 pairs of lovers.

I cannot confirm or deny whether Kobolds are breeding. Every time I get a camp running either I update the raws or I get a dwarven siege or something. I will look into the matter.

On a side note, how the eff do you have camps going for 8+ years!?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lagotrope on August 31, 2014, 04:35:25 pm
Quote from: HelloLion on August 31, 2014, 02:37:34 pm
I cannot confirm or deny whether Kobolds are breeding. Every time I get a camp running either I update the raws or I get a dwarven siege or something. I will look into the matter.

On a side note, how the eff do you have camps going for 8+ years!?

I basically cheesed it with cage traps. They still work, they're still overpowered. You just make a closed off tunnel the enemy has to go through (either tunneling a single entrance, or as I do, make a wood wall perimeter with a hallway entrance, and sieges walk right into it.

It sucks the !!FUN!! right out of kobold camp, and much of the spirit too, but I did want to test a lengthier camp to see how it went, and discover issues like lack of marriage.

That, and also another apparent issue in that my kobolds seemed to refuse to put on new leather ankle bands after the original footwear decayed into nothing. They can't seem to make regular shoes, either. I had one or two getting dangerously close to going berserk or something because, despite legendary meals and decent quarters/other stuff, "Has been disturbed by flies" and "Has been embarrassed by getting caught without shoes (x16)" was just too much. With said cage traps and a highly prolific food market, it seemed like my kobolds had nothing to do but brutally mock each other for lack of shoes without shoes themselves.

If that fort was going to fall, it wasn't going to be from a powerful dwarven siege, it was going to be because of kobolds going insane from lack of shoes.

Another discovery is that prepared foods are an amazingly lucrative market (or rather, extremely lucrative compared to the bold's other markets). At least 95% of my created wealth (1.5 million after 10 years when I retired it) was created by a small team of legendary cooks. Doesn't really need to be changed, I don't think, it just does make a kobold camp far more wealthier than it has business being. With this stuff, though, I was able to purchase steel equipment from my kobold civilization - this is probably not ideal since this implies they have some kind of metalworking department at home, but trying to fix that without breaking other stuff is probably pretty tough. Maybe. If it were fixed/changed though, it'd be harder to stop goblins from trading, at the least, good shields/weapons, since those are one size fits all. Anyway, once it was said and done, 5 (well trained) kobolds were enough to trash an elvish ambush of 5-10. I don't know how well they would have done against a dwarven siege; probably not that well, but I haven't had a chance to test it out.

And lastly, adventure mode seems interesting - I can actually talk to people and kobolds, kobolds seem to have shops (I'm figuring cities for kobolds are still in) and it generally works way better than I expected it to, kobolds and all. I mean, I still die from a stiff breeze, but that's how a kobold do. That, and I also could not equip a leather ankle band, nor a steel cap, which I found in my retired fort. I didn't find a steel shinguard to try on, but I didn't look long either, as wandering around a player made fort makes for a terribly laggy experience.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 31, 2014, 08:05:20 pm
Kobolds steal, and a successful kobold camp launches ambushes against other civs. It's entirely possible what you see as a metalworks back home is just the take from many successful kobold raiding parties. Maybe there's a Dwarven trade road passing within spitting distance of your home civ, and they robbed the caravans for that steel? Or better yet, if the steel stuff is actually kobold sized, maybe the goblins were involved and traded that stuff after reworking it. We all know how insanely OP Goblins can be on the world map, surely when their raids were over they took what they could home with them and smelted it back down to bars to make stuff.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lagotrope on August 31, 2014, 08:44:31 pm
Quote from: Urist McVoyager on August 31, 2014, 08:05:20 pm
Kobolds steal, and a successful kobold camp launches ambushes against other civs. It's entirely possible what you see as a metalworks back home is just the take from many successful kobold raiding parties. Maybe there's a Dwarven trade road passing within spitting distance of your home civ, and they robbed the caravans for that steel? Or better yet, if the steel stuff is actually kobold sized, maybe the goblins were involved and traded that stuff after reworking it. We all know how insanely OP Goblins can be on the world map, surely when their raids were over they took what they could home with them and smelted it back down to bars to make stuff.

Yeah it would have to be the latter; goblins (and dwarves and humans and elves for that matter) all make gear that don't fit kobolds, so any raiding parties would just get non-fitting stuff. Could be seen as kobolds giving stuff to the goblins to rework into kobold type stuff, but it's a stretch since it would get back into home civ hands before getting to be traded; as goblin caravans themselves only deal with large unfitting things.

I assume you're talking about plausible explanations and not the game itself; because the game itself is, unless there was a serious change I'm unaware of that is strangely implemented, a civilization cannot make gear to fit another civilization's mismatched species.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on August 31, 2014, 09:22:37 pm
Of course. Between current engine limitations and the whims of Toady, a lot of questions are unanswerable by the game without delving into bugs and the like. So for us players it's important to be able to come up with our own answers for things like this until Toady turns his eyes towards a solid explanation through the game mechanics. In this case, it's goblin middle-men getting involved at some point.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 01, 2014, 08:26:21 pm
Lessons learned: Caverns are hit or miss, and should be avoided until you're armed, armored, and trained well enough to use them. With a population higher than seven so you can survive a few casualties. And know how to use your trolls so they don't go insane and trash the place.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 02, 2014, 10:20:41 pm
Nevermind on the trolls. I just ran into another similar situation, and it turns out they're wild trolls I'm dealing with. Joy. Lost an axebold/tree cutter who was unarmed thanks to me not having another chopper to give him for battle. But I also got some migrants right after that battle, so his loss won't hurt as much.

And I caught a bug: When you set the Bushcraft shop to make bone choppers, you get a random assortment of weapons instead of choppers. If you're lucky, you'll get one or two choppers, but the first time I set one to be built, I wound up with everything but a chopper.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Baffler on September 02, 2014, 11:08:25 pm
Is the kiln supposed to be unusable? Pottery seems like a pretty sensible direction for kobolds to go, and pottery and glazing are available jobs, but they can't build them because they can't build with stone or metals.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on September 03, 2014, 12:33:31 am
Quote from: Baffler on September 02, 2014, 11:08:25 pm
Is the kiln supposed to be unusable? Pottery seems like a pretty sensible direction for kobolds to go, and pottery and glazing are available jobs, but they can't build them because they can't build with stone or metals.

In my version of Kobold Mode I allowed them to mine metal ore, but not rock. That leads to veins you can mine, which might be connected to veins below it, leading you to the caverns. But I never made it all the way down to the magma lake with this. But at least they managed to get metals.

Another solution to get fire-proof building materials is making blocks from bone.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on September 03, 2014, 08:22:10 am
We can trade with goblins, and they can still do things like masonry. While it takes luck, I'm sure we can find fireproof blocks.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: milo christiansen on September 05, 2014, 02:58:32 pm
About bone blocks: Rubble has an addon ("User/Bonecarver") that allows you to make bone blocks, three kinds actually. The first kind is made from the actual bone material, this is cool as then you can have "goblin bone blocks" and the like, but bad as they cannot be stockpiled. The second kind is made from a stone named "bone", and the third is made from a similar stone that is fire proof called
"treated bone", both of these can be stockpiled.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Baffler on September 05, 2014, 03:17:09 pm
The problem isn't that kobolds can't acquire metals and rocks, I got some from the goblins. The problem is that masonry is not a labor that can be assigned to kobolds, the entire stoneworking category (metal-smithing too) is simply not an option.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on September 10, 2014, 08:12:55 am
Hey everyone, sorry for being MIA, working on selling a house in real life.

Anywho, seems I dun goofed on the kiln thing. I'm going to add bone blocks in asap and look into some other issues with the mod. Might release an update tonight or tomorrow.

Also, anyone tried KC with 40.11? I haven't tried it yet but will tonight. If anyone's tried it yet and can comment on how it is or isn't working I'd be grateful.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: milo christiansen on September 13, 2014, 02:39:51 pm
Don't forget to permit the mason labor! It will still be impossible to build the kiln without that too!
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: gefer8 on October 01, 2014, 01:53:54 am
How do you train spears? It wants a regular training spear... but all I can make are kobold training spears.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: mangulwort on October 24, 2014, 08:36:50 pm
Does this still work old boy?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Diamond on December 05, 2014, 11:32:44 am
Did anyone try it on 0.40.19?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [on pause][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on December 19, 2014, 02:53:35 pm
Hey ya'll, just wanted to give an update. Moving has been a pain in the beard and I still have not gotten my proper battlestation set up at my new place. Some time after Christmas I will test the mod against whatever the latest version is and then try to whip up an update incorporating recent suggestions and issue reports. In the mean time, if anyone gets around to testing the last working version and lets me know of any issues that'd be cool, if not I'll do it when I can.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Gaba on February 12, 2015, 03:09:21 pm
I tested it with 40.24, it primarily worked. Now I need to play with it.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lostsoul on February 13, 2015, 11:35:05 am
Played a bit and enjoyed it, but something that I noticed.
You can't choose weapons for embark, only training weapons. There are 2 choppers already with you, but if you remove them, you can't get them back.
Trolls cost 1 point in embark screen.
Same with blizzard men, that you rarely sometimes get with you.

Also, in adventure mode, kobolds use awfull lot of training weapons, instead of real ones.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Krevsin on March 10, 2015, 09:25:46 am
Here's a weird thing: whenever a merchant caravan from either the gobbos or the kobolds (for some reason those are the only civs to have survived the worldgen) leave, I get tons of popups saying stuff has been stolen. After checking several times to make sure, I can ascertain that nothing has been stolen and the game reports the items the merchants leave with (either the stuff that I've traded or whatever I didn't buy) as stolen.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Meph on March 10, 2015, 11:54:11 am
That is normal. Or at least a known and harmless vanilla DF bug.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Axebeard on April 15, 2015, 11:31:44 am
I'm enjoying this mod so far. Building wooden forts seems much more natural to me than digging dwarf stone homes, but how can I dig soil? I want to channel a natural pond so I can start a farm.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: emeralis00 on April 15, 2015, 12:18:02 pm
Is it just me, or does trying to create a world lead to a really high number of rejections? I don't normally get rejections in the hundreds when trying to make a dwarf fort, but trying with Kobold civs results in dozens upon dozens of world rejections.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Axebeard on April 16, 2015, 01:14:16 am
Also, can Kobolds make siege ammo? I haven't seen it in any of the workshops.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: mangulwort on May 03, 2015, 03:57:00 pm
I can not gain shovels on embark, the game crashes. anyone else with this problem?
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Apani on June 22, 2015, 12:38:26 pm
Worldgen keeps rejecting, it says: "FARMING CIVILIZATION PLACED WITHOUT CROPS. The world generator is having trouble placing farming civilizations. Civilizations use available plants in their sorroundings as their initial crops. Make sure your parameters and raw objects have adequate vegetation."
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: hauntedmoth on September 17, 2015, 04:26:23 pm
Just wanted to say I really like your mod! I like the tribal kind of feel it gives.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: mangulwort on December 03, 2015, 08:16:11 pm
I hope someone updates this!
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Nirur Torir on December 10, 2015, 07:40:35 pm
I'll work on a basic port that doesn't explore into errors, if nobody else has started one.

Vanilla kobolds generate percussion instruments, but no music forms or musicality. I'm considering adding music and dance forms, plus a chance for a kobold to have a bit of musicality. ((I've only now learned that Toady didn't make up the word 'musicality.'))
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Nirur Torir on December 11, 2015, 04:55:29 pm
Kobold Camp for DF 0.42.02 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11872122/2015/Misc%20Bay12/KoboldCamp%201.70.zip)

I added in musicality for kobolds. They'll generate percussion instruments, dances, and music forms. They'll occasionally have musicality.
No scholars. It seemed a bit of a stretch with [UTTERANCES], although they seem to be able to tell each other stories just fine.

I barely tested it, but the error log is empty, so I'm sure everything works perfectly :v
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Silverware on December 15, 2015, 03:30:06 pm
Sweet, giving this a shot now.
I always did love Kobold Fortress.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Urist McVoyager on December 15, 2015, 04:33:27 pm
Downloaded and will give a shot with 42.03.

I love playing as kobolds. It's a much less stable start.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on December 22, 2015, 03:16:35 pm
Quote from: Nirur Torir on December 11, 2015, 04:55:29 pm
Kobold Camp for DF 0.42.02 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11872122/2015/Misc%20Bay12/KoboldCamp%201.70.zip)

I added in musicality for kobolds. They'll generate percussion instruments, dances, and music forms. They'll occasionally have musicality.
No scholars. It seemed a bit of a stretch with [UTTERANCES], although they seem to be able to tell each other stories just fine.

I barely tested it, but the error log is empty, so I'm sure everything works perfectly :v

Hey! I'm so glad someone is trying to keep up with this. I haven't had a lot of/been putting a lot of time into this (obviously), but I was thinking about trying to get it updated for the new version, and it was awesome to see that someone had gotten the ball rolling! Kudos to you.

I am going to test your mod and, assuming you're cool with it, if it works well I will probably use your start as a basis to get a fully-fledged update rolled out over the next couple weeks. I'd love to have more input from you (or anyone else) on this mod! I'm not real good with github but I can try to help you get on the project if you're interested.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Nirur Torir on December 23, 2015, 12:12:02 pm
Quote from: HelloLion on December 22, 2015, 03:16:35 pm
I am going to test your mod and, assuming you're cool with it, if it works well I will probably use your start as a basis to get a fully-fledged update rolled out over the next couple weeks.
Please do.

I have other things I'd rather focus on than on modding DF, but I'm willing to make a few kobold sprites if needed.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Lostsoul on December 24, 2015, 07:07:21 am
Good to see that Kobold Camp is getting updated again, here is some input.

It would be wise, to read whole thread again and fix the things, that been mentioned so far, before doing anything else.

Other than that..
The kobold language does not translate anymore, when trying to name your fortress you get. "This strange language cannot be translated."
Stepladder is missing from carpenter? Important tool for getting fruits.
"Make instrument piece" is missing from carpenter, leathermaker and probally from other places too.
Bookcase is missing too. Even if books and writing is un-boldy, I would like to play around with all the new 0.42 features, untill someone gets better idea of how to include them in
koboldis way.  Writing in wooden slabs for example?
Training Grounds are broken, for an example "train dagger" uses training spear instead of dagger.
Bushcrafter workshop: Typo, "shell sheld" I believe it should be "shield".   
Other one in bushcrafter, to build "Shell hammer" you need bone body parts, instead of shells?

Probally will find more to fix, when my camp gets bigger.

As for new ideas, the wild life feels too harmless and cowardly to me, in this version.
How about giving dangerous creatures more valuable bones? Or making new predators, that would be very hard to take down, so only big group of kobolds could kill one, but it would give would give a lot of meat and valuable hide/bones. I think this would add more tribal feeling, just think about ancient humans hunting mammoths

Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Nirur Torir on December 24, 2015, 11:47:48 am
Quote
The kobold language does not translate anymore, when trying to name your fortress you get. "This strange language cannot be translated."
I'm blaming [UTTERANCES].

Quote
Stepladder is missing from carpenter? Important tool for getting fruits.
Looks like they need metal by default. (Joke fix suggestion: Make buckets work like stepladders.)

Quote
Training Grounds are broken, for an example "train dagger" uses training spear instead of dagger.
I looked at it out of curiosity. I don't know why the training ground works without throwing errors. It asks for mis-named training weapons, which seems to be making it jump to the next entry's requirements.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: HelloLion on December 25, 2015, 05:39:00 pm
Quote from: Lostsoul on December 24, 2015, 07:07:21 am
Good to see that Kobold Camp is getting updated again, here is some input.

It would be wise, to read whole thread again and fix the things, that been mentioned so far, before doing anything else.

Other than that..
The kobold language does not translate anymore, when trying to name your fortress you get. "This strange language cannot be translated."
Stepladder is missing from carpenter? Important tool for getting fruits.
"Make instrument piece" is missing from carpenter, leathermaker and probally from other places too.
Bookcase is missing too. Even if books and writing is un-boldy, I would like to play around with all the new 0.42 features, untill someone gets better idea of how to include them in
koboldis way.  Writing in wooden slabs for example?
Training Grounds are broken, for an example "train dagger" uses training spear instead of dagger.
Bushcrafter workshop: Typo, "shell sheld" I believe it should be "shield".   
Other one in bushcrafter, to build "Shell hammer" you need bone body parts, instead of shells?

Probally will find more to fix, when my camp gets bigger.

As for new ideas, the wild life feels too harmless and cowardly to me, in this version.
How about giving dangerous creatures more valuable bones? Or making new predators, that would be very hard to take down, so only big group of kobolds could kill one, but it would give would give a lot of meat and valuable hide/bones. I think this would add more tribal feeling, just think about ancient humans hunting mammoths

My plan is absolutely to look through the issues people have had with the mod, though to be honest a couple of them I have not been able to recreate.

Nirur Torir explains the "strange language" situation perfectly. It is, unless I am mistaken this is being caused by the [UTTERANCES] tag. I haven't had the time to weigh the pros/cons of different speech tags with the new version, but I will investigate.

Nirur Torir also nails the stepladder issue. That should be an easy fix thanks for making me aware of it.

I'll investigate "Make instrument piece", I believe this has something to do with how Nirur Torir played with kobold musicality. I will investigate this and try to find a compromise I like.

I'll not include bookcase until/unless I have a good idea for how to make it bold-y. It just doesn't fit the theme and I'd prefer to leave it out for now unless I'm struck with inspiration.

I'm aware of the Training Grounds issue and will get to the bottom of it.

I forget how "shell" works right now but I believe I kept the name for flavor but have had trouble with the way shells worked. I will investigate.

Kobold Camp does nothing to change wildlife behavior. I can look into adding some new creatures at some point if there's demand but even if I do your embark site will always be the biggest factor.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Gigabytebob on February 28, 2017, 08:29:26 am
is this still being worked on or is it dead ???
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Ruludos on March 07, 2017, 10:13:45 pm
You just revived a thread more than a year old. I invite you to draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: Kobold Camp 2014: The Gritty Reboot [40.10][Community Development!]
Post by: Enemy post on March 07, 2017, 11:25:05 pm
I think this is the up-to-date version.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156989.0