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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 715510 times)

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4260 on: August 02, 2012, 05:52:32 pm »

He's been pretty enthusiastic about extending the influence of Bush's little surveillance state, extending the PATRIOT act, continuing wars, etc. The NDAA is an entirely unacceptable law for anyone with even the pretense of believing in civil liberties, and I'm rather surprised that I'm not hearing outrage like I would have heard if it was Bush passing it. So yeah, I don't like Obama very much and its hard to believe that I thought he might change things once upon a time. If he didn't want people to be angry when he supported pro-war/pro-surveillance legislation then he damn well shouldn't have campaigned on being against all of that.

Give me your point by point plan for Obama to remove and fix the 'surveillance state' in his term. There's alot of campaign rhetoric that gets ignored after campaign season is over, so you'll get over that. I'd just like to know exactly how you seem to think he's supposed to roll back 20+ years of 'counter-terror' infrastructure and huge influence in American politica.
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darkrider2

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4261 on: August 02, 2012, 05:58:31 pm »

You can't really equate the entirety of the government to the president. The president just doesn't have that much power, in fact, he/she has ALOT less power than is commonly assumed.

Control of the Senate/House is way more important. And I rarely ever see those elections make it off of the local AM stations and newspapers.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4262 on: August 02, 2012, 06:00:02 pm »

Weird, because that's literally what I just said.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And my entire point, if you didn't catch the heavy sarcasm in me asking for what GJ thinks Obama should have done to 'fix it' in one term.
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
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Drunken

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4263 on: August 02, 2012, 07:20:04 pm »

I just have to say I love all you guys. This entire forum, but this thread especially. When I need to explain to someone that the whole internet isn't just a cesspit of porn trolling and stupidity I bring them to this exact thread. Even among intelligent reasonable people conversations about current US politics can quickly devolve into a meaningless screaming match. The fact that this thread is so civil is a shining beacon to me of what an internet forum can be with a good community and reasonable moderation. Thank you all.

Back on topic: While I agree with everything salmon god is saying about Obama, I don't see that as anything even close to a reason to vote for Romney. Yes Salmongod never said it was a reason to vote for Romney and I am not trying to put words in his mouth. I am merely saying that although I agree with most people that criticise Obama, he would have to go much further before Romney would even be worth considering. Basically Romney will do all the same stupid/bad shit and probably worse, and the fact that he is more likely to get caught doing it is not sufficient reason to prefer him.
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Moghjubar

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4264 on: August 02, 2012, 08:08:23 pm »

Oh hey! Remember that asinine bill that the North Carolina legislature made that would forbid state planners from using !!SCIENCE!! to project rising sea levels??

Well, the bill is no more. IT'S A LAW NOW, BABY!

Does this mean they can use baseless conjecture instead?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4265 on: August 02, 2012, 08:36:04 pm »

Romney wants to let Wind power subsidies expire, but retain Oil and Gas subsides.

These...these people really, honestly believe they can drain the planet dry and get bailed out by Jesus, don't they?
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4266 on: August 02, 2012, 08:52:33 pm »

There's alot of campaign rhetoric that gets ignored after campaign season is over, so you'll get over that. I'd just like to know exactly how you seem to think he's supposed to roll back 20+ years of 'counter-terror' infrastructure and huge influence in American politica.

Not sure if you're responding exclusively to GreatJustice here, but it's not a failure to roll back security/surveillance creep that I am criticising.  I am criticising his active contribution to it.  GreatJustice mentioned the Patroit Act, and that is the perfect example.  When it came up for review in 2011, republicans only wanted a simple one-year extension.  It was Obama himself who suggested that they go ahead and give it a four year extension.  His campaign rhetoric wasn't just ignored.  He did a full switch on it.

Basically Romney will do all the same stupid/bad shit and probably worse, and the fact that he is more likely to get caught doing it is not sufficient reason to prefer him.

It's not that he's more likely to get caught.  It's that people will expect the worst from him from the start, and have already adopted a combative stance when his term begins.  When it comes to Obama, on the other hand, people don't seem to expect any unethical behavior of him.  I have a hell of a time convincing intelligent people that the guy has ever done anything wrong.  That scares me.

No, it doesn't scare me in the sense that I think he's going to personally order my door battered down.  I'm not being unrealistically paranoid here.  What scares me is the expectation that he will continue to willingly contribute to the accelerating erosion of our rights, and that people who would normally be energetically opposed to those behaviors will be almost completely unaware.  No, he is not and will never be solely responsible for the erosion of our rights.  I know he's not the grand monarch of the United States.  Regardless, the president is still a powerful individual, and the figurehead who most broadly symbolizes the dominant will of the country (not that I say dominant as in most powerful, not collective as in majority).

And no, I'm not saying we should vote for Romney, either.  I'm not voting in this election, myself.  The whole thing just bothers me.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4267 on: August 02, 2012, 08:59:07 pm »

Romney wants to let Wind power subsidies expire, but retain Oil and Gas subsides.

These...these people really, honestly believe they can drain the planet dry and get bailed out by Jesus, don't they?

pretty much? yes. The sooner the world gets destroyed, the sooner the rapture happens. So you see, its really all for the best.
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darkrider2

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4268 on: August 02, 2012, 09:12:58 pm »

Romney wants to let Wind power subsidies expire, but retain Oil and Gas subsides.

These...these people really, honestly believe they can drain the planet dry and get bailed out by Jesus, don't they?

pretty much? yes. The sooner the world gets destroyed, the sooner the rapture happens. So you see, its really all for the best.

Republicans killed the dinosaurs millions of years ago in order to harvest their remains for massive profits today.
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Jervill

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4269 on: August 02, 2012, 09:58:08 pm »

Romney wants to let Wind power subsidies expire, but retain Oil and Gas subsides.

These...these people really, honestly believe they can drain the planet dry and get bailed out by Jesus, don't they?

pretty much? yes. The sooner the world gets destroyed, the sooner the rapture happens. So you see, its really all for the best.

That's going to hurt him in Iowa, where wind energy is popular.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4270 on: August 02, 2012, 10:57:23 pm »

What could have Obama done? Here it is.

He could have vetoed any bill that came across his desk that infringed on american liberties, which would have then required a supermajority to get passed, which for most of the worst things wasn't going to happen.

He could have ordered his Marines to brush up on the laws of war. The Marine corps has a institutionalized worship of the Prez, so that would have resulted in some serious effort.

On those lines he could have closed guantanimo bay like he promised and moved them to US soil and treated them like prisoners of war instead of whatever legal fiction is currently in use. Trust me, the Marine Corps would have listened.

He could have chosen not to authorize targeted assassination with drones. Rogue CIA might have still done them, but every death wouldn't be on Obama then.

He could have refused anny list of assassinations that had American names on it, even if they were traitors.

He could have pardoned bradley manning.

All of these are things Obama could have done with the powers he has and would have made a difference.
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4271 on: August 03, 2012, 06:21:23 am »

He could have vetoed any bill that came across his desk that infringed on american liberties, which would have then required a supermajority to get passed, which for most of the worst things wasn't going to happen.
Examples? Not to mention many bills have multiple purposes. The NDAA, for example, authorises the budget for the military that had a couple of elements discussing detention added. Obama did threaten to veto over some provisions and they were removed, simply because no-one could have afforded the bill not passing.
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He could have ordered his Marines to brush up on the laws of war. The Marine corps has a institutionalized worship of the Prez, so that would have resulted in some serious effort.
Why the emphasis on the Marine Corps here? I've only been aware of a few cases where marines were involved in abuse, and fewer still under Obama.

I'm also guessing you haven't seen the army's new manual on avoiding civilian harm which was published last week. There is a copy here and was some discussion around it last week on national security and law blogs.
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On those lines he could have closed guantanimo bay like he promised and moved them to US soil and treated them like prisoners of war instead of whatever legal fiction is currently in use. Trust me, the Marine Corps would have listened.
Actually, no.

For one thing, bringing the prisoners to trial is pretty close to impossible, given the circumstances of their detention. Imagine a man who was caught by police standing over the bodies of five children cackling about how he just killed them. But then the police snatched him, held him for a month without charge, tortured him, etc. A good lawyer might not get him off on the initial charges but could damned well make that case hard for the prosecutor to fight. An open and shut case turns into a long slog, likely one that is destructive to the police force who captured him (deservedly so).

That's a pretty straight analogy for some of the prisoners, like KSM. If you had followed any of the news from his trial you would notice the lawyers are making a huge spectacle of it, emphasising the detention practices and abuses at every turn, even while they are supposed to be entering a plea. Simply moving prisoners into other custody and bringing them to trial is a massive farce that is going to take years.

Then there is the congressional opposition to GTMO closing. Keeping the prison open (although it can never receive any more prisoners) has become an article of faith for the Republican party. They have explicitly banned, several times, the use of government funds to transfer prisoners out of GTMO. Obama has even been ignoring or reinterpreting some of these laws (as excessive restrictions on executive powers) to carry on with prisoner transfers. There have also been attempts to block international prisoner transfers, both from the GOP and from overseas powers who back out of promises to take prisoners back. This has massively slowed the exodus of GTMO prisoners, although it has been carrying on at a reduced speed.

The whole NDAA detention kerfuffle was started when the Republicans wanted to block GTMO transfers and civilian trials or detention for 'terrorists'. That whole debate? All about attempts to keep GTMO open. The issues of civilian detention and the like were only sideshows as far as Congress were concerned, and given the action around the 2013 NDAA (currently passed in the House with massive GOP re-writing after all progressive amendments were defeated, up for debate in the Senate soonish) it seems they were right that no-one would pay much attention into the future.
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He could have pardoned bradley manning.
On what grounds?

Frankly, while I have massive sympathy for Manning, he did commit a massive crime. He released a huge amount of classified material on, essentially, a personal whim. Give the volume and nature of the material it's very unlikely that he had determined if any of it was seriously damaging to the USA. It was an irresponsible act, no matter how much some people might like it or take pleasure in it.

I'm all for lenience during his trial, given the mitigating circumstances that actually existed. But not holding him accountable for such a leak is to treat classification of information as optional. In some cases, sure, no harm. In others that's asking to get people killed.


I'm leaving the drone strikes for now because that's a huge topic that I haven't been able to come to firm conclusions over yet. I will say I'm strongly in favour of him being the final authority in making these strikes. If the US is shedding blood, I want that blood on the hands of someone selected, in no small part, for his moral character and seriousness. If the US is making these strikes I trust them to be justified more if it's Obama giving the go-ahead than if it's some unknown CIA agent or military general. It's the sort of decision that we elect presidents to make. While most people tend to ignore it, alongside all the policy and political roles the president fills, he also if confronted with an endless series of trolley problems that have real death tolls attached to their decisions.


But overall I think Obama has fucked up in some places and made strides (or at least strong attempts) in others when it comes to national security and civil liberties. It's certainly worth noting his fights against strong institutional inertia from the CIA and military, defending their past actions and pushing to use their powers. And yeah, he probably deserves some jail time by the end of his term. I'm not sure that a president has existed who hasn't.
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Myrkky100

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4272 on: August 03, 2012, 06:47:12 am »

I'm leaving the drone strikes for now because that's a huge topic that I haven't been able to come to firm conclusions over yet. I will say I'm strongly in favour of him being the final authority in making these strikes. If the US is shedding blood, I want that blood on the hands of someone selected, in no small part, for his moral character and seriousness. If the US is making these strikes I trust them to be justified more if it's Obama giving the go-ahead than if it's some unknown CIA agent or military general. It's the sort of decision that we elect presidents to make. While most people tend to ignore it, alongside all the policy and political roles the president fills, he also if confronted with an endless series of trolley problems that have real death tolls attached to their decisions.

You can look at the whole drone thing in two ways. On a more theoretical level it is very suspect ethically and may well violate both domestic and international law. On a more down to earth level, since Bush had authorised the program to start, pretty much anyone could have been elected at it would have continued. There are individuals in Afghanistan, Yemen, the Horn of Africa etc. that are seen to pose a threat. Boots on the ground are politically very difficult and switching to some other method would be time and resource consuming and risk failure. At the same time the capability to use drones is there and a lot of people in the military and relevant industries are backing the use and expansion of the strike capability; a lot of administrative inertia is pushing the program forward. So in a realpolitik-sense the argument that personally making the decisions at least shows some attempt to take moral responsibility.
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palsch

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4273 on: August 03, 2012, 07:24:54 am »

Because I still don't quite have the energy for the drone discussion yet, have the best Guardian headline of the year.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4274 on: August 03, 2012, 10:00:34 am »

The president does not need grounds to pardon Bradley Manning.

As for what grounds? The unlawful imprisonment and  torture of a US citizen.

Bradley Manning committed the crime of acting as a wistleblower to expose and have rectified fraud and illegal coverups in the US government. The crime of releasing classified information is mitigated by the nature of some of the information released. Should he have been arrested? Yes. Dishonorably discharged? Almost certainly. Tortured for years and denied a trial? HELL NO!

Obama claimed to embrace transparency and justice, but this specific case is a travesty and clear demonstration that all his moral appeals where nothing more than a facade. He is little or no better than his predecessor in that regard.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
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I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.
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