Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: DoubleG on November 30, 2019, 06:17:28 pm
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I thought you would be able to grow moss on muddy stone for underground pasture, but it doesn't seem to be working. I have the cavern layers breached and moss is growing on dirt tills that are underground, but it's not working for my muddy stone. I'm even getting plants and mushroom trees on my stone, but no moss. Kinda puts a damper on my underground pasture plans. Has something changed in the latest version?
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what biome is your muddied stone in? moss won't grow under ocean biomes, iirc
also, be sure to loo(k) at the tiles, since the moss might be there and just hidden by the very same mud it needs to grow
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The Biomes are Tropical Broadleaf Forest and Tropical Coniferous forest. They are both Sinister. I've checked, looked really hard. Left the muddy room for a while now, still no moss. I even had time to muddy a whole other section of aboveground stone, so I can grow an orchard of overground trees, but I'm not sure if that'll work either. I'm definitely getting underground mushroom trees and other underground plants, just no moss. :( Maybe I'll try pasturing all my grazers there anyway, see if they starve...
UPDATE: I just reloaded the game and it's updated the names to Muddy Floor Fungus, rather than just Muddy Andesite Floor. Odd that it took reloading to get it to update....... Still not sure if the overground tree section will work yet.
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oh, weird... maybe worth a bug report? but hard to upload a save for a bug that fixes itself when reloading.
very curious about the results for your surface plot, since i've never tried that. the wiki page for mud sounds like you'll get grass and shrubs, but no trees, which would be disappointing
i'm glad you'll at least have a working underground pasture! :)
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Yes, muddied stone (and floor) supports only shrubs and grass, but not surface trees. Also, surface shrubs seem to have trouble with muddied floors, being more sparse than on surrounding natural soil. Farm plots work fine, though (assuming the area has been exposed to the sky at some point, otherwise they're underground plots, supporting underground crops instead).
Note that you can floor over an area once it has been exposed to the sky, and it will still support surface flora (including trees, if there's soil on the level below and a headroom of at least 2 Z levels).
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ANOTHER UPDATE: Muddied stone doesn't work at all for either tree growth or even aboveground shrubs and grasses. Overground grass only seems to grow on natural soil tiles that have been exposed to the sky.
On an interesting side note, I did read about a bug where you might be able to change the tile type to soil through an extremely complicated process of pumps, pipes, magma and water. Currently testing this. Once the obsidian has been cast you dig it out and often it seems to change the tile type to soil (or maybe different) have to wait and see. My only other option was dropping a surface layer of soil down into the depths with a collapse, but it's a little late for that with my current position already dug out. Plus I've heard dropping soil layers sometimes changes them to stone as well. :(
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You don't have to complicate things as much to get the soil on top of rock bug: Building and removing a floor or build road is sufficient to sometimes get it. It MIGHT be more common if the rock is muddied before being covered, but I'm not sure about that.
Cave-ins of soil definitely can change one type of soil to another, and I think it typically changes to the soil type last encountered from the top during its fall.
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anecdotally, I agree-- mud seems to increase the chances.
As does random cave-in with constructed materials. (which do not have a layer stone or soil type, only the construction material type, which deconstructs on the ground.) It produces clouds, which can potentially produce the soil tiles in my experience. It's not predictable though.
Usually the product is some kind of sand with the cave in approach.
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Constructed material can change rock to soil???? I thought you had to have a natural soil layer to collapse to get any chance of soil. Interesting. I am already halfway through obsidian casting. I'll let you know how it goes. :)
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Since it seems the soil type generated is dependent on the last soil layer above (or current level), it shouldn't be possible to get soil in biomes where none exists. The random soil generation from construction+deconstruction has to be some kind of bug, though.
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Looks like I need to do structured testing.
From memory, obsidian floor produces black sand soil.
Since I can (and have been in the past) wrong in my recollection of this issue--
I will create a world specifically for this purpose, will save it in its virgin state, at first embark, just before experimental test runs (all known possible ways to produce a soil tile), and just after.
I will package them all into a zip for dffd. This will take some time.
DFhack will be used for expediency to generate mud using water creation.
Experiment log, Site selection.
A world was generated using default parameters. The following site was selected due to the basic conditions of having half the embark in a known "No soil" biome (mountain), and half in a "has soil" biome (shrubland)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjHphcsd/siteselected.png)
Experiment Log, Initial experimental setup
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCqdm3ms/Experimentstart0.png)
Several rooms have been carved for the experiment. Two in the shrubland biome, 1z below surface level. Extant soil. Two in the mountain biome. No soil.
In each of the target environments, one room is native to that Z level, with native floor type. The other has been channeled one z down, and a floating constructed floor has been produced. A quarry was constructed to provide building materials. Fastdwarf was used to expedite the process.
Same setup, one z below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJmvzT1R/Experimentstart0-1.png)
No water has been produced at this juncture, so that this apparatus can be saved for further revisions on the test theme.
Shrubland biome -2z lacks soil. This initial test setup can be adapted in later run to drop soil onto layer below to demonstrate soil creation through layer drop effect.
Experiment 1, phase 2
Water is dropped, and mud is created.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzsrBTyD/Experimentstart0-2-water-Dropped.png)
Experiment 1 Phase 3
Paved roads constructed over test areas.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPZGN7Gy/Experimentstart0-3-pavedroads.png)
Test apparatus saved for fork in testing methodology.
Experiment 1 phase 4 (Fork 1, deconstruction)
Null result-- No soil generated in any zone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wj8GrCsY/Experimentstart0-3-deconst-no-Soil.png)
Experiment 1 phase 4 (fork 2, Floor drop 1)
Null result-- No soil generated in target zones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNRq0cRF/Experimentstart0-3-floordrop1-no-Soil.png)
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Allright. That pretty much nailed that deconstruction or collapse alone is insufficient.
While taking a break to do my last rounds for the night, I remembered that my experiences with spontaneous soil generation coincided with cavern fungus production.
The experiment will fork from initial setup after this point. The cavern system will get breached, mud will be deposited, then I will wait for cavern fungus to grow. The experiment will then be repeated.
Experiment 2, phase 1.
Cavern layer breached. Constructed floors muddied, as well non-constructed cavern floor. Fungus will be given time to grow. Construction/deconstruction tests will be performed, followed by drop tests.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Mk1Ytm/Experimentstart1-0-waterdropped.png)
Experiment 2, phase 2 part 1
Cavern fungus appears on natural stone floors, fails to grow on constructed floors. This is consistent with previous research.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzHL8MHs/Experimentstart1-0-fungusgrown.png)
Construction and deconstruction of paved road on top of fungus tile produces soil tile.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6M9HF4f/Experimentstart1-0-deconstsoilgenerated.png)
Experiment 2, phase 2 part 2-- Drop
Cavern fungus appears on floor below drop area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL8M5VQh/Experimentstart1-0-predrop.png)
Constructed floor is dropped.
Soil is not produced.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1fNMFjL/Experimentstart1-0-postdrop.png)
EXPERIMENT 2 CONCLUSION: DECONSTRUCTION OF CONSTRUCTION PLACED ON GRASSED TILE PRODUCES SOIL NATIVE TO BIOME AT LAYER
Experiment 3
For this experiment, both drop chambers will be processed with obsidian casting to produce artificial obsidian "natural" cavern floor. this will be muddied, and permitted to grow fungus, then deconstruction testing will be performed. this is to determine if previously selected layer type is assigned, or if new layer type is assigned.
Replication of deconstruction method on cast obsidian floor produces soil tile native to biome in zone 1. (shrubland.)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0yq77ZW/Experimentstart2-referencesoil.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjfKx9HL/Experimentstart2-zone1fungus.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qM3L9Rps/Experimentstart2-zone1soil.png)
Replication of deconstruction method on cast obsidian floor produces soil tile native to biome in zone 2. (Mountain)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SdxSKb3/Experimentstart2-zone2fungus.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QVGnRKPz/Experimentstart2-zone2soil.png)
EXPERIMENT 3 CONCLUSION: CAST OBSIDIAN NOT EFFECTIVE AT CHANGING SOIL LAYER TYPE
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Do you want me to perform an experiment 4, with very deep location that should not have any soil type at all??
OR
experiment 5-- embark in "no soil/no vegetation" stone only embark?
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I gained sand tiles in the lowest cavern level after a fire burned through it (this layer of the cavern sits directly on the magma). Just pointing these out.
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Whenever I got black sand off obsidian, it was "naturally occurring" obsidian found near a magma tube/volcano vent. This is likely due to the igneous layer intrusion, which is a "no soil, no vegetation" type layer.
I can generate another world with volcanism turned to absurd levels, and perform further experiments, if necessary.
So far, it appears that soil can be reliably created once the cavern system is breached, using grassed muddy tiles, and construction/deconstruction method.
It is still unknown if "reliable access to sand" can be obtained through performing the same on igneous extrusive layer floors.
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Thank you for your replies. I too, found that obsidian casting did not change the soil layer from what it was originally. Due to it being aboveground now I could't grow cave moss, so had to abandon my ideas for an orchard. I abandoned the fortress as well. Everyone was "harrowed by the nightmare that is their life" and migrants were arriving, "knowing the place would be their tomb". Most of my citizens were in hospital unable to perform tasks and the fortress was covered with dead bodies and mess. Everything ended up going pretty badly. Guess I really need to keep on top of those moods.
I have gened a new world with good sites that hopefully will do better.
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Regarding obsidianizing then digging away for soil: That in my experience results in floor made of biome layer materials at z-level. Soil in soil layers or air, stone in stone layers (similar to how digging ramps in SMR used to produce i.e. diorite ramps rather than smr ramp).
Thanks for testing wierd.
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Any time. It's been a while since I did science!