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[ResMar]

hah, I didn't even notice cleaning was missing. I guess I never used it much.

I still say that the compact view is the better default, but others are right in pointing out that there should be an expanded fancy crayola fill-on one as well.

What I disliked about this discussion was that not everyone seems to realize that the old view hasn't been eliminated, only renamed: it's still in there, and you bring it up at any time using the view drop-down menu. Because if Therapist users don't realize they can do that, then they must not realize how to use any of the programs many other, advanced features as well; and that's a problem both for Splinterz, who spends god-only-knows how much time writing these features, and for me, who spent, by my count, close to 50 hours [learning how to use these features and] writing a guide specifically aimed at addressing this issue.

[Billy Jack]

BUG:  v23.4

Under the Roles menu selection, the Edit and Remove custom roles selections aren't working.

Thanks for continuing and improving DT as I feel it is a necessity.

[crossmr]

I got lost in the Farmer sublabors one too many times to tolerate the default labor arrangement. Toady's structure works when your labor toggles are a textual list---less so when they're in a matrix. Remember also that Toady limits himself to a certain restricted color pallet in the interface.

Here is the compact grid view:
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9233

Here is the expanded grid view:
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9314

Farmer sublabours can be color coded (it's a wide group compared to others) without the need to change the actual layout. The reason the labours should match the game is a matter of consistency. People who use both, say because they like to use new versions before DT gets updated, will start to see a disconnect if drastically alter things.

What I disliked about this discussion was that not everyone seems to realize that the old view hasn't been eliminated, only renamed: it's still in there, and you bring it up at any time using the view drop-down menu. Because if Therapist users don't realize they can do that, then they must not realize how to use any of the programs many other, advanced features as well; and that's a problem both for Splinterz, who spends god-only-knows how much time writing these features, and for me, who spent, by my count, close to 50 hours [learning how to use these features and] writing a guide specifically aimed at addressing this issue.

Whether you are doing it for free or not, you still have a typical business/customer relationship with the users. If you're taking the time to do this and share it, it's because you want people to actually use it which means you actually have to listen to feedback and take people's needs into consideration. In business you never blame the customer, and in software you never blame the user. If users are struggling to find information and understand features that isn't their fault as a group. While you might actually get some utterly clueless users at times, for the most part you users are average people and those are the people who still have an issue with the way things are right now.

[splinterz]

I did the following: export the compact labors gridview; delete the compact labors gridview; delete the hauling superlabor; import the compact labors gridview; open the compact labors gridview. The view works, and the hauling superlabor is added to the customizations dock. It doesn't appear that you have to do any additional work on this.

there's something else, possibly a bug, happening with the deleting/loading then. if the superlabor doesn't exist in the dwarf therapist.ini, the view will not be able to find it. there's no way for it to create a superlabor from a gridview import, because the views only keep track of what columns they should have, not what every column consists of.

[splinterz]

BUG:  v23.4

Under the Roles menu selection, the Edit and Remove custom roles selections aren't working.

Thanks for continuing and improving DT as I feel it is a necessity.

aren't working as in nothing happens, or a crash or what?

[Billy Jack]

BUG:  v23.4

Under the Roles menu selection, the Edit and Remove custom roles selections aren't working.

Thanks for continuing and improving DT as I feel it is a necessity.

aren't working as in nothing happens, or a crash or what?

Nothing happens.  It doesn't crash.  It doesn't expand to the right like the arrow suggests.

I had used this feature in the past, but haven't made use of it until recently.

Windows 8

[splinterz]

BUG:  v23.4

Under the Roles menu selection, the Edit and Remove custom roles selections aren't working.

Thanks for continuing and improving DT as I feel it is a necessity.

aren't working as in nothing happens, or a crash or what?

Nothing happens.  It doesn't crash.  It doesn't expand to the right like the arrow suggests.

I had used this feature in the past, but haven't made use of it until recently.

Windows 8

what kind of custom roles do you have? do you have some that override the default roles perhaps?

[ResMar]

Whether you are doing it for free or not, you still have a typical business/customer relationship with the users. If you're taking the time to do this and share it, it's because you want people to actually use it which means you actually have to listen to feedback and take people's needs into consideration. In business you never blame the customer, and in software you never blame the user. If users are struggling to find information and understand features that isn't their fault as a group. While you might actually get some utterly clueless users at times, for the most part you users are average people and those are the people who still have an issue with the way things are right now.

It's something that'll be fixed when the time comes. In the meantime, I look like an ass. "Freaking ResMar, changing my default view and rendering my favorite utility useless..." It's two clicks! Two!

[Meph]

Whether you are doing it for free or not, you still have a typical business/customer relationship with the users. If you're taking the time to do this and share it, it's because you want people to actually use it which means you actually have to listen to feedback and take people's needs into consideration. In business you never blame the customer, and in software you never blame the user. If users are struggling to find information and understand features that isn't their fault as a group. While you might actually get some utterly clueless users at times, for the most part you users are average people and those are the people who still have an issue with the way things are right now.

I dont agree with that part all that much. I always go more for the Pareto Principle, which is the 20/80 rule. 20% of your users give you 80% of your feedback.

But as someone in a similar position as Splinterz: It can be hard sometimes when you get a bunch of negative comments or demands or misunderstandings thrown around, while you work hard and sacrifice your free time for something that only other people use. It can be taxing, but is usually resolved by just taking a day off. At least in my case.

[splinterz]

Whether you are doing it for free or not, you still have a typical business/customer relationship with the users. If you're taking the time to do this and share it, it's because you want people to actually use it which means you actually have to listen to feedback and take people's needs into consideration. In business you never blame the customer, and in software you never blame the user. If users are struggling to find information and understand features that isn't their fault as a group. While you might actually get some utterly clueless users at times, for the most part you users are average people and those are the people who still have an issue with the way things are right now.

I dont agree with that part all that much. I always go more for the Pareto Principle, which is the 20/80 rule. 20% of your users give you 80% of your feedback.

But as someone in a similar position as Splinterz: It can be hard sometimes when you get a bunch of negative comments or demands or misunderstandings thrown around, while you work hard and sacrifice your free time for something that only other people use. It can be taxing, but is usually resolved by just taking a day off. At least in my case.

yeah it's that's something important to remember; the vocal minority. sometimes the ideas are great, other times, you look back and realize that if you'd listened to your customers and done everything they'd asked for, you'd be in a very bad place.

the biggest thing that gets to me sometimes is that people expect to be treated as paying clients for hobby projects that are purely for the benefit of the community, and nothing more. when i start to find myself responding as though they really are paying customers (oh shit, i better get that fixed before tomorow!), that's usually when i end up taking a break to avoid getting too caught up in the project.

not to say that this gridview fiasco is exactly one of those moments, just that unyielding mentally that 'the customer is always right' rubs me the wrong way (which is probably why i'm encouraged to avoid all contact with clients normally )

[khearn]

hah, I didn't even notice cleaning was missing. I guess I never used it much.

I still say that the compact view is the better default, but others are right in pointing out that there should be an expanded fancy crayola fill-on one as well.

What I disliked about this discussion was that not everyone seems to realize that the old view hasn't been eliminated, only renamed: it's still in there, and you bring it up at any time using the view drop-down menu. Because if Therapist users don't realize they can do that, then they must not realize how to use any of the programs many other, advanced features as well; and that's a problem both for Splinterz, who spends god-only-knows how much time writing these features, and for me, who spent, by my count, close to 50 hours [learning how to use these features and] writing a guide specifically aimed at addressing this issue.

I just found your guide yesterday. After seeing a few mentions of a guide and how it should be more visible, I looked at the first post of this thread, went to the homepage linked from the first post, and couldn't find any mention of it in either place. Since I didn't know that the guide was something you (ResMar) had done, I didn't look at your signature (I tend to ignore them unless I'm looking for something specific, since they mostly contain useless stuff). So I finally ended up googling for "Dwarf Therapist Guide" and found it that way. Yeah, it really does need to be more visible.

Splinterz, How about adding a link to the guide from the first post, and also from the project home page (if that's doable)? Those are the first places people are likely to look for documentation.

BTW, It looks like a great guide for a great program. I've been using Therapist for years, but have taken a DF hiatus for a while, and lots has been added since I last used it. I've read a little over half of it so far, and it's pretty clear, and written in a very readable style. I hope the section on the optimizer is as good as what I've read so far, because it looks like it could be really useful, but when I tried messing with it a few days ago, I couldn't figure out what do do with it. Thanks to both Splinterz and ResMar for all of the work that has gone into both the guide and Dwarf Therapist.

For thios who haven't found it, the guide can be downloaded from http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7889 (or is there a better place?)

[Billy Jack]

BUG:  v23.4

Under the Roles menu selection, the Edit and Remove custom roles selections aren't working.

Thanks for continuing and improving DT as I feel it is a necessity.

aren't working as in nothing happens, or a crash or what?

Nothing happens.  It doesn't crash.  It doesn't expand to the right like the arrow suggests.

I had used this feature in the past, but haven't made use of it until recently.

Windows 8

what kind of custom roles do you have? do you have some that override the default roles perhaps?

I only created one role and only one shows up when right-clicking and assigning a role.  So I can assign and create a role, but I can't delete or edit it. It's pretty much a straight oob installation. I only copy in my macros and keyboard settings for new releases of DF.

I also went back and opened up some of my older versions of MW which includes DT and found that they suffer from the same issue.

So....  Is there some other file on my PC that's not stored within the DT folder structure that could be messing it up.

EDIT to avoid double post.
Seeing the discussions about the grid views, IMO the default should be the same as it has in the past and as has been covered in many LTP videos.  The fact that it is only two clicks to change the view can also be applied as "Yes, it only takes two clicks for someone to pull up a new and improved view."

[splinterz]

only one shows up when right-clicking and assigning a role

this almost sounds like you're talking about custom professions, can you explain how and what you're assigning a role to?

[AriRashkae]

Question/Feature Request:

Is it possible to tweak the Animals panel (either something that's already there that I'm overlooking, or something for a future release) to show the description of individual animals? You know, the stuff you get on their status screens: "gigantic", "enormous yet skinny" etc? It'd make it easier to decide who / how many to butcher.

(If this is something already brought up & discussed, sorry for missing it!)

[ResMar]

I just found your guide yesterday. After seeing a few mentions of a guide and how it should be more visible, I looked at the first post of this thread, went to the homepage linked from the first post, and couldn't find any mention of it in either place. Since I didn't know that the guide was something you (ResMar) had done, I didn't look at your signature (I tend to ignore them unless I'm looking for something specific, since they mostly contain useless stuff). So I finally ended up googling for "Dwarf Therapist Guide" and found it that way. Yeah, it really does need to be more visible.

Splinterz, How about adding a link to the guide from the first post, and also from the project home page (if that's doable)? Those are the first places people are likely to look for documentation.

BTW, It looks like a great guide for a great program. I've been using Therapist for years, but have taken a DF hiatus for a while, and lots has been added since I last used it. I've read a little over half of it so far, and it's pretty clear, and written in a very readable style. I hope the section on the optimizer is as good as what I've read so far, because it looks like it could be really useful, but when I tried messing with it a few days ago, I couldn't figure out what do do with it. Thanks to both Splinterz and ResMar for all of the work that has gone into both the guide and Dwarf Therapist.

For thios who haven't found it, the guide can be downloaded from http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7889 (or is there a better place?)

That URL is correct. Glad you like it, and that I (and/but moreso Splint) now understands where the issue is. Catching up the documentation to the program took me a lot of time because, like you, I've been waiting for DF2014 to drop. I give a fluid explanation of how optimization plans work, if you liked the rest of the explanations you'll like that one too: though the only usecase I have in the guide right now is the holistic "Putting it all Together" example of military drafting.