Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Rolepgeek]

In isolation, it certainly does. I believe the patch that's applied there is that God wants people to have free will, and to develop their souls and whatnot. It's 'worth more'. Or something.

Also yeah, that's a power held for God and God alone. We cannot be entrusted with it, as we are flawed.

[origamiscienceguy]

"be fruitful and multiply"

[Orange Wizard]

Obviously this would be the work as a psychopath, but with my (admittedly middling to poor) knowledge of the Bible the only contradiction to it I can find is violation of the whole "thou shalt not kill" bit. 

"Thou shalt not murder" would be a better translation. God doesn't mind killing, just unlawful killing.

[Chevaleresse]

That's more of a recommendation than a command, no?

Unless of course infertile people are going to hell. I don't know if you get points for trying, so maybe it's only deliberately choosing not to reproduce? I won't claim to know the answer.

...I'm also not suggesting we go about murdering babies. Let me make that quite clear.

(As a side note, I'm fairly certain the Commandments were only meant to apply to one's own tribe. Granted that would mean that the hypothetical baby-murdering spree would have to occur at the very least in Canada and not where I live, but it could still happen.)

[Arx]

The other issue with that that a lot of people seem to miss is the second-degree consequences. Murdering innocents could have a lot of knock-on effects on future conversion rates that you can't know about. What if one of those foetuses would, bar your interference, have been a great leader who would have saved hundreds or thousands, and [ good thing] to boot?

Sure, you'll also prevent some bad, but it's like going into a nuclear reactor and flipping switches are random; if you get the right switches, it'll keep running fine, but if you don't you could put it into meltdown, or more likely just break it in some boring way. The analogy isn't perfect, so please just take it in the spirit it's given in.

[origamiscienceguy]

I understand you don't advocate murdering every baby. Same goes for me. 

Be fruitful and multiply seems to be a command to the entirety of humans, but do not murder is actually a better one to use. Like orange wizard said.

[Orange Wizard]

That's more of a recommendation than a command, no?

It's a command to humanity as a whole, rather than every individual. The NT epistles have a number of passages that say it's up to each person whether to marry and have children or not (with the implication being that the extra time/money goes towards the church or somesuch), but the expectation is that the human species should continue to expand as much as possible.

...

Anyway, re: murdering babies - it's pretty plainly a bad thing (discounting the afterlife possibilities) and it's not actually stated in the Bible whether or not every dead child will go to heaven. What is stated, however, is that God's covenant is made with believers and their children.
In other words, this means that the children of believers will go to heaven, but the children of others will not. Admittedly that's not certain (we're reminded time and time again that we can't know for sure who will or won't go to heaven) but it's definitely a point against murdering every infant out of "love".

[Chevaleresse]

The other issue with that that a lot of people seem to miss is the second-degree consequences. Murdering innocents could have a lot of knock-on effects on future conversion rates that you can't know about. What if one of those foetuses would, bar your interference, have been a great leader who would have saved hundreds or thousands, and [ good thing] to boot?

Sure, you'll also prevent some bad, but it's like going into a nuclear reactor and flipping switches are random; if you get the right switches, it'll keep running fine, but if you don't you could put it into meltdown, or more likely just break it in some boring way. The analogy isn't perfect, so please just take it in the spirit it's given in.

I suppose. Still, my main point was that the whole "babies go to heaven" thing is perhaps not the greatest principle to use - though I'd accept that babies killed by God probably get a free pass or somesuch. I guess not having that idea leaves the answer of what happens when an infant dies open once more. If God can see the future then I suppose they'd just go to wherever they would have gone should they have lived their life without my infanticidal interference, but then seeing the future kind of requires that our universe be deterministic, meaning that everyone's lives were preset from the beginning so why bother with life at all? Just toss everyone in the appropriate plane and wash your hands of it.

EDIT: Wouldn't that mean I should just murder -Christian- babies then? Leave the rest to grow up so they can convert.

[Orange Wizard]

so why bother with life at all? Just toss everyone in the appropriate plane and wash your hands of it.

Because then the people in question don't get to experience life, and the whole point of life is to live it.

[origamiscienceguy]

The other issue with that that a lot of people seem to miss is the second-degree consequences. Murdering innocents could have a lot of knock-on effects on future conversion rates that you can't know about. What if one of those foetuses would, bar your interference, have been a great leader who would have saved hundreds or thousands, and [ good thing] to boot?

Sure, you'll also prevent some bad, but it's like going into a nuclear reactor and flipping switches are random; if you get the right switches, it'll keep running fine, but if you don't you could put it into meltdown, or more likely just break it in some boring way. The analogy isn't perfect, so please just take it in the spirit it's given in.

I suppose. Still, my main point was that the whole "babies go to heaven" thing is perhaps not the greatest principle to use - though I'd accept that babies killed by God probably get a free pass or somesuch. I guess not having that idea leaves the answer of what happens when an infant dies open once more. If God can see the future then I suppose they'd just go to wherever they would have gone should they have lived their life without my infanticidal interference, but then seeing the future kind of requires that our universe be deterministic, meaning that everyone's lives were preset from the beginning so why bother with life at all? Just toss everyone in the appropriate plane and wash your hands of it.

EDIT: Wouldn't that mean I should just murder -Christian- babies then? Leave the rest to grow up so they can convert.

If you kill all the christian babies, who's gonna convert them? And yada yada murder etc.

[Chevaleresse]

I guess I'm used to hearing the school of thought that life is essentially a test of one's soul, to determine whether one belongs in Heaven or Hell. Which is perfectly fine if you believe in free will, but if one believes in determinism then it seems to render the whole thing pointless, by my view.

I should mention that I'm not trying to somehow be obstinate or flippant, by the way, so sincere apologies if that is indeed the impression I'm giving.


Fake edit: If the pact's with the believers and their children, and you accept the implication that this means the children also get a shot at Heaven, no one has to come around and convert them.

[origamiscienceguy]

That wasn't meant to be a serious answer. It is evil to murder innocents.

[Chevaleresse]

My point was that a particular view calls that idea into deep question, since murdering said innocents would be doing them a favor.

[Orange Wizard]

My point was that a particular view calls that idea into deep question, since murdering said innocents would be doing them a favor.

It's only a favour if we're 100% dead certain they're destined for heaven (which we're not), and even then you're still killing the kid, which is something they probably wouldn't appreciate.

[Arx]

Still doesn't answer the blind nuclear technician problem, though.