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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 594007 times)

dennislp3

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2535 on: May 07, 2015, 10:51:01 am »

I hate to ask again...but did you have a spot or a few posts somewhere about how you got started with procedural generation and/or more technical stuff?
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2536 on: May 07, 2015, 11:23:33 am »


In the mean time, another nice piece from RPS (though I think some people in the comments do not appreciate the challenges of procedural face generation within an ANSI grid...) http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/06/ultima-ratio-regum-faces/

Fantastic work with the faces!!! They look great and were much better than what I was expecting (on an ANSI grid!). I can't wait to walk around with NPCs!

One of the interesting points that a lot of people raised in the RPS article was how there has yet to be an 'engaging' procedurally generated game. Whilst I don't think that's strictly true, there certainly hasn't been one with both a good world AND story. They're all very much 'make your own fun' sort of things.

I'm very interested to see how you'll pull it off as I think this will be the thing that people remember - a game that was both massively procedural AND a fun game in and of itself. I suppose the test is can the player load up one world and enjoy that on it's own as a one off? As in, if you were stuck with the same world forever, would it be just as fun as knowing you can create endless new worlds.

NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE!


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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

Neonivek

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2537 on: May 07, 2015, 11:41:54 am »

Regent is very possible!

Given the very possible existence of Kings and Queens who are... say... 1 year old.

I figured there were good chances.
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puke

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2538 on: May 07, 2015, 01:51:35 pm »

some people in the comments do not appreciate the challenges of procedural face generation within an ANSI grid...) http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/06/ultima-ratio-regum-faces/

That face-age-alizer whatzit was a bit overly harsh, as well.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2539 on: May 08, 2015, 05:27:39 am »

Ah, So in that particular update, clothing and coinz shall be introduced... Well when we should know how they will look like! (that will give us some hint how weapons in the future looks like espescially armour)And i am very sorry for the common typos  i am making, i am a fast typer.

Yes! Since as I mentioned before I need to display an interim version at the IRDC in the UK at the end of June, i.e. a month and 2/3rds away, I've decided I'm going to focus on generating clothing and crowd mechanics (i.e. "standard" NPC citizens spawning/despawning out of sight) for that, as I think I can do that by then, and then leave special NPCs, coins, and conversations, until after the IRDC. Then re-evaluate what exactly 0.9 will be, but I anticipate a very short release (two months?) focusing on trade systems, travel, uncovering the map, that kind of mechanic.

I hate to ask again...but did you have a spot or a few posts somewhere about how you got started with procedural generation and/or more technical stuff?

I've never really posted about this! I basically just used the libtcod + Python tutorial (easily Googled), taught myself Python from there, and now we're suddenly here. Everything I've done I've done through trial and error and the rare posting on a site like StackOverflow; URR's the first game I've ever made. I recommend using a tutorial you like, then just fiddling with the values, trying new things, seeing what governs what, and then coming to understand what exactly each line in the code actually refers to, and how you can use that code to do interesting things.

Fantastic work with the faces!!! They look great and were much better than what I was expecting (on an ANSI grid!). I can't wait to walk around with NPCs!

One of the interesting points that a lot of people raised in the RPS article was how there has yet to be an 'engaging' procedurally generated game. Whilst I don't think that's strictly true, there certainly hasn't been one with both a good world AND story. They're all very much 'make your own fun' sort of things.

I'm very interested to see how you'll pull it off as I think this will be the thing that people remember - a game that was both massively procedural AND a fun game in and of itself. I suppose the test is can the player load up one world and enjoy that on it's own as a one off? As in, if you were stuck with the same world forever, would it be just as fun as knowing you can create endless new worlds.

NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE!

Excellent! Glad you like 'em. I thought that comment about "I have yet to play a fun procedural game" was totally bizarre. I just thought "so you've never played a procedural generation game, then?". Literally any classic or modern roguelike fits the bill. Weird. But as you say, if one interprets that as meaning engaging in a story sense, I suppose it is kind of true (although the meta-story in Isaac of child abuse/religion really resonates with me). We shall see! I've sadly not been able to get much development done since I released 0.7 aside from NPC faces, as I've mostly just been putting a few little fixes to things I didn't have time to sort for 0.7, adding in a few new generators for things like city and encampment names, etc, but the major development of 0.8 will start once I'm back from a games conference in Germany on the 18th (as in, I'm back on the 18th). As above, I'm mentally splitting this release into two parts: making a "stable" build I can show off at the RL conference, then finishing it off and adding the rest of the stuff needed for public release.

That face-age-alizer whatzit was a bit overly harsh, as well.

Ha, yes, it was rather - it definitely interpreted the tattoo as being age lines...
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dennislp3

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2540 on: May 08, 2015, 05:46:59 am »

I hate to ask again...but did you have a spot or a few posts somewhere about how you got started with procedural generation and/or more technical stuff?

I've never really posted about this! I basically just used the libtcod + Python tutorial (easily Googled), taught myself Python from there, and now we're suddenly here. Everything I've done I've done through trial and error and the rare posting on a site like StackOverflow; URR's the first game I've ever made. I recommend using a tutorial you like, then just fiddling with the values, trying new things, seeing what governs what, and then coming to understand what exactly each line in the code actually refers to, and how you can use that code to do interesting things.

Ahh yeah thats what I am working on now...unfortunately most tutorials and what not out there simply cover theory and rarely show the actual code from what I have found. I have a basic grasp of it all. Got some health issues that are causing serious issues focusing proper so I suppose I should clear that up first :P
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2541 on: May 08, 2015, 09:50:48 am »

Excellent! Glad you like 'em. I thought that comment about "I have yet to play a fun procedural game" was totally bizarre. I just thought "so you've never played a procedural generation game, then?". Literally any classic or modern roguelike fits the bill. Weird. But as you say, if one interprets that as meaning engaging in a story sense, I suppose it is kind of true (although the meta-story in Isaac of child abuse/religion really resonates with me).

I do have to agree with them that a lot of procedural games sort of stop at the procedural content side of things. Take any of the procedural sidescrollers or minecraft clones - they're basically just 'Procedural Generation - the game' rather than using the procedural generation as the backdrop to a proper adventure. Partly it's because there's only so much fun that emergent gameplay can provide. Making your own story is all fine and good, but after a while most people feel some need for purpose. I'm excited to see how URR deals with this, as I'm sure it'll be awesome!



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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2542 on: May 10, 2015, 07:44:05 am »

Ahh yeah thats what I am working on now...unfortunately most tutorials and what not out there simply cover theory and rarely show the actual code from what I have found. I have a basic grasp of it all. Got some health issues that are causing serious issues focusing proper so I suppose I should clear that up first :P

This is true, it's hard to find one that explains the absolute basics (again, I recommend the libtcod + Python one, there's no simpler/earlier tutorial out there). Sorry to hear that, hope things improve!

I do have to agree with them that a lot of procedural games sort of stop at the procedural content side of things. Take any of the procedural sidescrollers or minecraft clones - they're basically just 'Procedural Generation - the game' rather than using the procedural generation as the backdrop to a proper adventure. Partly it's because there's only so much fun that emergent gameplay can provide. Making your own story is all fine and good, but after a while most people feel some need for purpose. I'm excited to see how URR deals with this, as I'm sure it'll be awesome!

Oh, certainly true (I'm no fan of either of those genres) - it's like the horrifying mass of meaningless games on steam greenlight which are all just "SURVIVAL GAMES" and list things like "YOU HAVE TO FIND FOOD OTHERWISE YOU DIE" as *features*, with this absurd idea that that, somehow, makes a game. It's just laughable thinking "survival mechanics" instantly create a game any more than PCG does, I totally agree... but I still think that person's comment was rather weird. Anyway, as am I! And are you coming to IRDC this year?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Neonivek

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2543 on: May 10, 2015, 08:02:40 am »

The issue with Procedural basically just amounts to that most games use procedural as a replacement for delicately crafting levels in order to obtain the most fun as possible.

They never EVER think "How can this procedural system not only make new content, but how can this new content be worthwhile?"

Spelunky will always be one of the games I will herald as one of the ones that did procedural right... because the game's generator was well aware of the player's capabilities and had an idea of what a proper layout was... thus stages were designed in a rather fun way purely procedurally.

While Terraria 1.0 is the game I'd use as the example of how to do procedural outright wrong. With the world just being empty and bland to the point where in the end every cave was just a mound of dirt and rock with absolutely nothing interesting. (and THANK GOODNESS Terraria is at version 1.2... Fans are interesting. Criticize a game and they will jump down your throat, but wait for the better version or better game to come along and they will create a conga line behind you as if you were right all along)

But Indie games are as a whole like that. They all just take superficial elements like "Classic platformer" or "survivor horror" or "Roguelike" and treat those features like they are fun in it of themselves instead of trying to make them as fun as they can possibly be.

Whenever I see a indie classic platformer and I hear the excuses in my ear "But it is so classic" I instantly compare it to Super Mario where the entire game was expertly crafted to be as fun as possible with the little resources as they have. While they intentionally use less resources but instead of using that as a way to put in more polished gameplay they treat "we have less" as a feature.

---

I do think I should hold off on playing your game URR xD

Because I think we both know I'd never give the game any mercy.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2544 on: May 10, 2015, 09:22:55 am »

But Indie games are as a whole like that. They all just take superficial elements like "Classic platformer" or "survivor horror" or "Roguelike" and treat those features like they are fun in it of themselves instead of trying to make them as fun as they can possibly be.

Whenever I see a indie classic platformer and I hear the excuses in my ear "But it is so classic" I instantly compare it to Super Mario where the entire game was expertly crafted to be as fun as possible with the little resources as they have. While they intentionally use less resources but instead of using that as a way to put in more polished gameplay they treat "we have less" as a feature.

---

I do think I should hold off on playing your game URR xD

Because I think we both know I'd never give the game any mercy.

This, sadly, is very true: using a definition doesn't immediately make a game! Pah. But then, it's much harder to make an actual game than to just copy a mechanic you saw somewhere and call it a game; honestly (and maybe this is an unpopular opinion) I think the massive expansion in the last ~10 years of the ability to make and distribute games hasn't been entirely positive. In pricinple a lowering of the barriers to entry to game design SHOULD be a good thing... and yet it has allowed so much nonsense to saturate the market and get in the way. Eh. It's probably good overall, but there have been major downsides.

THIS WEEK'S UPDATE:

This week I haven’t been able to get any coding done, and the same will sadly be the case for the next seven days – I’ve been finishing off an academic book chapter due in very shortly, as well as doing some writing for various online game publications (links will be posted here once my pieces are published), and also writing three different conference presentations for three talks I’m giving at DiGRA in Lüneburg next week (so once I upload that, and my previous set of talks, I’ll be uploading six sets of slides for your perusal! I’ll get around to it folks, I promise). So, this week and next week we’re going to talk about some of the more abstract intentions/plans for 0.8 onwards, then hopefully after that we’ll be back to specific updates once I get working on 0.8 again upon returning from Germany (week of the 18th onwards). Two big abstract/worldbuildy changes in this release alongside the development of NPCs (!!) are policies, and nicknames, so let’s talk about these.

Policies

During the development of 0.7, I found myself making a major change to how national policies work. Originally the idea was for them to give abstract benefits to the player – one policy might yield a player who belongs to that nation extra strength, for example – but I found this increasingly uninteresting. So much of the game’s mechanics are meant to be about figuring out and understanding the generated world, and I realized it would be a lot more interesting if policies directly affected what spawned in each nation – so the macro of a nation’s political ideologies and policies then determine what buildings appear (or not) in cities, towns, within buildings, etc.



So, a pretty simple key. Green effects are policies which don’t relate to shops; yellow policies relate to types of shops which can spawn in that nation; which the red ?s, funnily enough, are policies I haven’t thought of a good effect for (any ideas?). Escort Cavalry is a nomadic-only policy, and Chiefdom is a hunter-gatherer only policy, but aside from those, any of these policies can spawn for any feudal nation (Monastic is in red because it is a new policy I haven’t yet added to the game or created an image for). At the bottom you’ll see two binary possibilities: from 0.8 onwards, nations will either be slaving nations or won’t be, and nations will either use gunpowder weapons, or won’t.

With this system policies will therefore seriously affect (I hope) a player’s path around the world and choosing which nations to visit, knowing that certain shops will only appear in certain nations, some will be more/less hostile to foreigners, some have different systems for payment (or not) when moving around cities, some nations will have different punishments if the player decides to commit a crime within their land, etc. Should add an interesting level of grand strategy to the player’s movement, and be a lot more interesting than “abstract policies” which affect the player, but fail to distinguish between nations.

City Nicknames

Credit for this idea must go to Retropunch. He suggested that I could add some distinguishing factors to cities which both make them stand out more from each other, and add the potential for nicknames. In this release I’m aiming to add this in over a dozen ways to make cities more distinct, and add in another “clue” – i.e. the nickname – by which cities might be identified. This means the generation algorithm for a small number of cities will be tweaked to ensure that something very noteworthy spawns in/around/throughout a given city, and then an appropriate nickname is generated. Some examples:

City with many slums: “City of the Downtrodden”, “The Evergrowing City”, etc

City with many gardens: “The Flowering City”, “The City of the Hundred Gardens”, etc

City near volcano: “The City of the Inferno”, “The City of the Red Mount”, etc

Slaving city: “The City of the Masters”, “The City of Shackles”, etc

City with many statues: “The City of Stone Watchers”, “The City of the Grey Men”, etc

And so on. I’ve got around fifteen ideas so far for feature/nickname combinations (you’ll be able to find the rest in 0.8!), so maybe five cities per playthrough will be granted some unique “overlay” (like lots of gardens, lots of statues, etc) and a nickname to go with it. So then the player will sometimes be told “Travel to [ City Name ]”, but will instead sometimes be told “Travel to [ City Nickname ]” – a small thing in gameplay terms, but something which’ll add some nice extra variety to the world’s cities and help the player remember which city is which. The idea of the nickname in general seems like something very promising, so I’ve also been working on adding nicknames to other things in the game, primarily rulers and important historical figures, and also noteworthy living figures the player will be engaging with, and it’s those I’ll be talking about next week!
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dennislp3

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2545 on: May 10, 2015, 02:21:00 pm »

I will try and toss out some ideas for the ? empty spots

Militia - Perhaps some sort of "training yard"...essentially a small armory + exercise field...possibly near or connected to a blacksmith

Escort Cavalry - A special barn/horse pen connected to or near a training ground for riding. Essentially a course with dummies along the path to practice mounted archery and horse maneuvers

Interventionist - "foreign interventionism (a state's intervention in the affairs of another nation as part of its foreign policy)." Based on the definition I would think this sort of policy would give rise to spies or extra diplomats or perhaps even embassies in other cities. Perhaps there could be businesses that act as fronts for characters from a nation with this policy?

Imperialist - Imperialism would also be a good candidate for embassies in foreign towns. In the case of owned towns that are NOT the capital you would likely have the nobles, or at least governor of the city be in a pseudo Government owned mansions. Think of the Romans for instance. They would send out citizens that lived lavish lives usually at the expensive of the city they governed and often owned lots of farmland. As a governor they managed the economy and acted as the high judge in the land they governed

Tribal Knowledge - medicine man or "elder hut". This would likely serve as a low level mixture of a historian and a judge of sorts. If a medicine man they would of course serve as the primary medical doctor of the town.

Chiefdom - The chief, assuming it was primarily for tribal use, would likely have a large "mead hall" that served as his house for him and his personal guard and servants. Outside of this there would likely be burial mounds for nobles and heroes

Hegomony - "the term cultural hegemony describes the domination of a culturally diverse society by the ruling class, who manipulate the culture of that society — the beliefs, explanations, perceptions, values, and mores — so that their ruling-class worldview becomes the worldview that is imposed and accepted as the cultural norm"

This would likely give way to certain schools/colleges or other amenities specifically for use by one racial or social group that would make them superior and able to hold power. Perhaps even outright bigotry. For example in the US in the past there would be restrooms/businesses/schools etc labeled "white only"

Vigilantism - public forms of punishment/execution. Public gallows, lashing posts, hanging people in cages til they die in open view, public punishment areas for stoning/beating/burning/murdering/mob justice. On a more individual level you are looking at a society of people that ALWAYS have at least a sword or dagger on every person so that they are able to punish a crime when it happens (cutting the hand/fingers off thieves, killing on the spot, marking people as criminals with cuts etc)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 02:24:54 pm by dennislp3 »
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dennislp3

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2546 on: May 10, 2015, 02:22:06 pm »

double post of the previous post by the forum...ignore
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 02:48:53 pm by dennislp3 »
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2547 on: May 11, 2015, 12:47:40 am »

Hooray for the implementation of city nicknames!!! :D

With this system policies will therefore seriously affect (I hope) a player’s path around the world and choosing which nations to visit, knowing that certain shops will only appear in certain nations, some will be more/less hostile to foreigners, some have different systems for payment (or not) when moving around cities, some nations will have different punishments if the player decides to commit a crime within their land, etc. Should add an interesting level of grand strategy to the player’s movement, and be a lot more interesting than “abstract policies” which affect the player, but fail to distinguish between nations.
Just a thought with this - it would seem that there are some policies which would make a city undesirable to visit,especially with certain combinations (say if you got Mercantile, ordeal and pacifism). With a good 20-30 cities, it would probably mean these would be skipped over if possible, or at least not be very exciting to visit.

I know it's a big undertaking, but would it therefore be possible to have pros and cons on some policies? Mercantilism could then give you entry/exit costs, but guaranteed extra shops for instance. Penitentiary could have lots of prisons, but drastically lower crime (and so on).

I just feel that would make the policies mix in better to the grand tapestry of things rather than just being simply positives or negatives.
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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

Neonivek

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2548 on: May 11, 2015, 06:43:09 am »

Well a Merchantile civ historically tended to have a rather large military and a very strong assimilation drive.

You seem to want to turn them into the Ferengi Retropunch. "To use these stairs you must pay 10 dollars!"
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MDFification

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2549 on: May 11, 2015, 10:09:26 am »

Just wondering... how frequent is historical societal collapse in URR? Do you just generate ruins, or have you got some sort of model for civs declining?
The best model would probably be to use Diminishing Marginal Returns - it's the theory of societal collapse that applies to most known historical cases and has the benefit of being somewhat easy to model. Adding cataclysmic events on top of that to occasionally speed the process (and to confuse the player; I mean, if this is an anthropological mystery, you really have to bait players with dramatic theories that fit into some sort of biased narrative, i.e. the barbarians came down from the hills and laid waste to civilization when really the primary reason was economic) would be how I'd design it, personally.

If it is designed this way, that just gives you a lot more interesting archaeology to play around with! Civs can decline at variable rates (and if they have neighbors, just be assimilated instead of truly collapse), but the rate of decline can affect the wars they fight, the rate they construct monuments, and even be reflected in terms of subdividing earlier structures (as societies collapse, they tend towards subdividing earlier structures over constructing new ones).
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