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Total Members Voted: 69

[WillowLuman]

Making the spires undiggable is still pointless, though. There likely isn't enough area on top of them to do the channel trick to get through undiggable stuff, so people would do the channel trick to get through the undiggable Semi-molten rock beneath the Magma Sea anyway and never encounter any effects from the [DEEP_SPECIAL]

What I mean about turning a miner into an army of demons is that we already have assimilating demons in hell. Doing that makes the Shades we already have a bit pointless. Why not just turn the cluster size on the Shades WAY up and have them drop the awesome reagents?

[Halfling]

This whole "four horsemen" thing does sound very interesting. I still like the idea of the material you would otherwise get straight from the colums actually being from the tissues in the demons produced by the spire. Perhaps there is a way to be more subtle about this, though. Have the first person infected hang around for a while with the interaction infecting other people, then at some (preferably as unpredictable as possible) point after you mined the first piece of the spire, everybody who got infected turns at once and all hell breaks loose. That sounds to me like some serious high-level !!FUN!!

Entirely possible.

Draft of what's needed all in all:

Digging the special stone causes a burst of gas causing syndrome 0
Syndrome 0: 5% prob of able to do interaction 0 starting at 0 phases, 10% able to do interaction 0 at 100 phases, etc... ending at 2100 phases
Interaction 0: add supernatural to self and all others for 2100 phases, target cannot have supernatural, add to self syndrome 1
Syndrome 1: adds a recognizable set of tokens, can do interaction 1 starting at 1200 phases, can do interaction 2 starting at 0 phases, can do interaction 2 starting at 12000 phases
Interaction 1: spread syndrome 1 (free action, touch, delay 3600 phases)
Interaction 2: spread syndrome 2 (self only), target requires: mischievous
Syndrome 2: body transformation into <DEMON>
Interaction 2: targets all affected by syndrome 1 (identified by tokens) anywhere on the map, adds mischievous

Result:
* Unless you're very unlucky (.25% chance for >1) only one person is infected regardless of how many are affected by burst of gas; the initial infection time varies by 2100 phases based on luck
* After 1 day and then every 3 days, any infected creature infects another creature (leading to, optimally, something like 10+3+2+2+2+1+1+1+1=23 infected total during countdown)
* After 10 days, all infected transform immediately into demons


Since I already have lots of syndrome and interaction related raws, those being my modding focus before this, making the above framework would take me barely any time at all I should think. Just need the material and creatures.

[StLeibowitz]

It's like some kind of horrible, delayed clown car.

[WillowLuman]

Actually, I have an alternate proposal:

-Make a [DEEP_SPECIAL] material that's undiggable but has no syndromes or special effects. It's just an obstacle.
-Now the only way into Hell is by using engineering to dig through the magma sea and Semi-molten rock.
-Turn the [CLUSTER_SIZE] on the Shades up to the hundreds
-Make Shades drop an item that can be converted to 1 bar of the Amazing Material.

Benefits:
-People have to actually go into hell and set up defenses there if they want the special material, because the Shades don't path to the fort automatically.
-Shades likely WILL path into the fort if defenses fail
-Shades don't actually have to kill to swell their ranks, just inject once.

[kopout]

It's like some kind of horrible, delayed clown car.

I think that's the point.

[Halfling]

Added a note of Since I already have lots of syndrome and interaction related raws, those being my modding focus before this, making the above framework would take me barely any time at all I should think. Just need the material and creatures. above. So that's a thing.

For extra awesome, demons could still initially be demon hosts that split into 5-10 demonlings and 1 demon overlord for the true doom experience. Although there is such a thing as going too far with stuff like this when we just a little earlier agreed that the world largely needs something that doesn't try to kill you.

[TheClam]

The alternative is that we just go all-out and do all of the above. If you dig through the spires, you get the "horrible delayed clown car". If you go through the SMR, it's more difficult but you still have to deal with the shades to get the decent material. We could even have the shades be guarding the spires- since it's possible to mine into the spires from below, if you get through them you can dig out the spires which yield one of the !!FUN!! ideas we've been brainstorming. On a different note, boy I really derailed that conversation you guys were having earlier, eh? 

[WillowLuman]

ninja'd by TheClam

And we already have something in Hell, Shades, so why not work with what we have? Why make a whole new set of demons that eliminates any purpose for the Shades to exist?

Look, if Demons spawn from infected fortress denizens who have mined the [DEEP_SPECIAL], then HELL ITSELF IS POINTLESS. People wouldn't have to actually go into hell to get the demon material. Whereas, if the demon material came from the Shades, people would have to build constructions to get into Hell (risking their civillian workers and them leading the Shades back to the fort as they flee), and would have to bring people into harm's way to get the Shades' attention at all. It thus be considerably more difficult and riskier to try strategies such as dropping the ceiling on them, as you'd either have to make your own ceiling or lure an army of Shades all the way up into the fort.

[TheClam]

I think I'm going to concur with HugoLuman on this one, actually. The demons do make hell itself pointless if they spawn from the spire. Making it necessary to go through hell and an army of hundreds of shades in order to get the super-material seems like a better use of the resources we have. That being said, as I pointed out, we don't need to pick one or the other. If we make the new cotton candy [UNDIGGABLE] then we can only get at it from below, and if that is to be the truly-endgame material we could simply throw in the idea for the delayed clown car on top of the shades. And while I agree that the world does need something that's not trying to kill you, this is hell we're talking about. The final boss. Makes sense to have it be as difficult a challenge as it possibly can be.

[WillowLuman]

Anyway, Dirigible Antelope are working OK, but the Syndrome doesn't infect them. The small puffs coming out don't stick to skin or last long enough to be inhaled, so they can't self-infect. But other than that, they're done. Which brings us to variants:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:DIRIGIBLE_ANTELOPE_TELESCOPIC]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:DIRIGIBLE_ANTELOPE]
[NAME:telescopic dirigible antelope:telescopic dirigible antelopes:telescopic dirigible antelope]
[CASTE_NAME:telescopic dirigible antelope:telescopic dirigible antelopes:telescopic dirigible antelope]
[DESCRIPTION:Close cousin of the Dirigible Antelope. It has a telescopic neck for browsing on grass from the air.]
[RETRACT_INTO_BP:BY_CATEGORY:GAS_SACK:ALL]
[CREATURE_TILE:'D'][COLOR:6:0:0]
[PREFSTRING:stretchy necks]

[Halfling]

@Hugo, we can have different demons dropping different materials at different stages. It doesn't have to be as simple as one or the other. I personally feel like more content anywhere is better. If you want to develop the shades then even if we went with the special stone plan that wouldn't prevent it.

It's not a matter of resources as we're not working on the clock. If something inspires people then it will happen and if not, then not, so, just throwing ideas about and seeing what sticks is best, rather than announcing official goals.


Speaking of, incidentally, does anyone know whether friendly body parts that you resurrect (not animate) would be part of your civilization, or know the right keywords for finding it on the modding forum?

Because...

Spoiler: Formics on steroids (click to show/hide)

1. You get to embark with "larva" caste citizens
2. Build a workshop that transforms one larva into a queen
3. Queen periodically grows a bunch of new eggs (resurrectable body parts) that fall off and are resurrected and body-transformed into larva
4. Queen builds evolution chamber
5. Assign larva to evolution chambers
6. Use evolution chambers to produce a reaction causing a body transformation in the larva into a worker/soldier/guardian/giant beast/drone/queen/etc. caste (may require vespene gas items mined/traded for/laborously manufactured/etc.)
7. Zerg Fortress yay!

For the dirigibles, making the bladder material liquid and a contact poison should make it affect the creature reliably as creatures do get covered in their own blood. It could emit puffs as part of the syndrome (material emission)

[WillowLuman]

Antelope: I like them as they are, though. They leak gas until they don't have enough to fly (since the tissue has [FLIGHT]), then plummet to the ground and keep leaking until they run out. It's funny as hell. I might instead give them a USAGE_HINT:FLEE interaction that boosts their speed when they flee (after someone attacks them), but right now I'll work on other stuff.

Speaking of Hell, the problem with having assimilating monsters born from mining the spires is that the Shades are already assimilating monsters. It's still a bit redundant if you have both and just make the Spire monsters drop somewhat inferior material.

[Halfling]

Antelope: I like them as they are, though. They leak gas until they don't have enough to fly (since the tissue has [FLIGHT]), then plummet to the ground and keep leaking until they run out. It's funny as hell. I might instead give them a USAGE_HINT:FLEE interaction that boosts their speed when they flee (after someone attacks them), but right now I'll work on other stuff.

True. Definitely a DF from Scratch success story.

(I was able to harvest the body needed from earlier in the thread and test them)

Speaking of Hell, the problem with having assimilating monsters born from mining the spires is that the Shades are already assimilating monsters. It's still a bit redundant if you have both and just make the Spire monsters drop somewhat inferior material.

Different assimilations. Stone turning creature into a one time demon boss you have to face before hell != demon that turns others into similar demons (that resides in hell). Still, my offer is to make the interactions but not the creature necessarily as I'm not that inspired yet, so it could be anything, from a balrog to a succubus.

Incidentally I should think it's also possible with some interaction hacks to make it so that you only face ONE demon boss (that your miner turns into, or even one that splits from your miner while the miner escapes with some extra hoops again involving spawn creatures) ONCE after you mine the special stuff, and it doesn't happen again after that. Basically you make the interaction affect the entire fortress and immunize them to it while at the same time only transforming one person.

[TheClam]

Speaking of Hell, the problem with having assimilating monsters born from mining the spires is that the Shades are already assimilating monsters. It's still a bit redundant if you have both and just make the Spire monsters drop somewhat inferior material.

Looks like Halfling ninja'd me, but I'll make my point anyway.

I see your point, but I do think that the problems presented by each scenario are different enough to make it interesting even were we to have both. The shades assimilate you on contact, necessitating a careful approach, lots of planning and fortifications in order to retrieve their material with maximum efficiency. You know that if they get in close, you're going to have to quarantine off an entire section of the populace, and you need to plan extremely carefully if you're trying to actually conquer hell. By contrast, the "delayed clown car" is specifically meant to be unpredictable- or at least that's what I was getting out of it. You don't know which of the miners is infected unless you only have one miner, there is no real way to tell who they've given the syndrome too, there is really only so much planning you can do for it. While the concepts are both that of "assimilating monster", I think that if we pull it off well we can get two very distinct and fun challenges out of it. The shades would require extreme care and planning, while if you choose to go for the really endgame stuff in the spires, you have to take it as it comes and react to it, because you don't know exactly what is going to happen except that it's going to involve copious amounts of !!FUN!!

[kopout]

Antelope: I like them as they are, though. They leak gas until they don't have enough to fly (since the tissue has [FLIGHT]), then plummet to the ground and keep leaking until they run out. It's funny as hell. I might instead give them a USAGE_HINT:FLEE interaction that boosts their speed when they flee (after someone attacks them), but right now I'll work on other stuff.

They also have a tendency to burst into flame near magma. (well if the gas bag is punctured)