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[Unentschieden]

I imagine Magic in DF as a huge project later on, different for each race but in certain ways tradable/interracial. They should relate to the races, making "foreign" Magic harder to use.
Dwarfs: Runic
Human: Arcane
Elves: Druidic
"Primitives": Sacrificial

Magic should have a source and a medium, meaning that the effect is based on some kind of "input":
Dwarfs: Precious Materials, Runestones (Runepriests are free to work as long as they have appropiate "ammo")
Human: Knowledge,Stamia, Reagents (Wizards need to learn Spells, tire from using them.)
Elves: Life (animals, living trees etc.), Potions (Think Mirakulix)
"Primitives": Sacrifices - they would kill eachother/themselves to trigger magic

The races are mainly logical appointments on what kind of magic a certain civilization might come up with/be most fitting to use.
Runestones and Potions would be tradable directly and actuall use wouldnīt need a certain skill, you could make firerunes for your Soldiers as Grenades, import Healing potions etc. (Given diplomatic relations and horrendous amounts of Money)
Arcane would be based on skill reagents like Demon bones. Training and reagent aquisition would keep this from being abusable.
Sacrifices would require a pact with a Demon/Megabeast or something like that and be quite unattractive to the player by mere concept but be at least possible.

Central Magic would naturally be Runic but that would also be very expensive. Rather than all day fireballing it should increase artifact quality and allow ultimately construction of Golems aka your own Megabeast (depending on Project size).

Edit: The above is more or less Brainstroming.

What can/should be actually implemented?
Iīd say that magic should grant unique advantages but be in no relation to the effort it needs to work so that itīs more of a "endgame" factor when every dwarf is Legendary at everything.
It should be strictly item based, meaning that casting wouldnīt be a skill in itself but something like engraving magic. This is to promote armies of Dwarfs in glowing armor rather than a army of wizards.

Sacrificial Magic would work for some enemy armys like Kobolds as it wouldnīt make much sense for them to have exeptional equiptment that you could pillage - no point in creating your own stuff then.
It would make sense for them though to raise their dead, summon demons, buffs for the boss etc. while dimishing their own numbers, that keeps players from asking "Why canīt i use that kind of magic?".
That would diversify latter armys more than straight "better stuff, bigger numbers".

[ June 08, 2008: Message edited by: Unentschieden ]

Another Edit:
The main thing Iīd want from Magic is to diversify enemys and allow myself construction of "Supernatural Devices" that require magic components/materials like maybe Golems or Thunderhammers.

[ June 08, 2008: Message edited by: Unentschieden ]

[perilisk]

By "magic", do we mean supernatural forces in the world? After all, the game already has dragons, the undead, magma men, unicorns, gods (some of which might even exist), demons, and so on. Even adamantine could be considered supernatural.

My worry with magic is that it's rarely used (in RPGs) in a way that makes sense, only in a a way that conveniences the glorified hobos known as PCs. Consider what sort of impact a simple spell like "Cure Disease" would have on our world. Gods forbid you add resurrection. Spells like the former are usually fairly easily available because they're more boring that summoning a 40-foot demon, but their potential to alter history is as great.

If we're considering the sort of low-key system that would integrate fairly well with existing DF, consider that mythological dwarves' big magical power was not runes (though runes might be involved) but rather crafting really awesome stuff. Dwarven nobles had nothing on the Aesir, and dwarves ended up crafting them Mjolnir, Gungnir, Draupnir, etc. (magic wigs, boats, even a live boar (WTH?)). Plus, there's Andvarinaut, the prototypical cursed magic ring macguffin.

Basically, it makes the most sense for Dwarves "magic" to be their Moods and Artifacts. All it takes is giving the Artifact one or more magical properties based on its creator's personality and desires and the type of mood (with Fell moods more likely to create double-edged items, for example). A dwarf obsessed with wealth would create an ring that could turn random stone into gold once a year, a dwarf terrified of rats would create a mitten that would summon a hoard of spectral cats for a few minutes, what have you. Perhaps dwarves could dedicate items to someone they adore: a god, a lover, a treasured pet.

Of course, there's also the more boring sort of magic -- using craft and trickery to make the world's magic work for you. Use dragon hide to make fire resistant armor, use herbal extracts to treat wounds, steal a ghost's treasured item and lock it in a deathtrap to create a... haunted deathtrap.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a "Wizard tower" mode where I can build my Necromancer's workshop (takes corpses, creates obedient skeletons and zombies), or create illusory walls and objects (or make real walls and objects invisible). And I think it would be amazing for a god to occasionally intervene in mortal affairs, or for a legendary figure's mundane possession/remains to gain magic due solely to its association with the figure, like a relic. It's just not really Dwarf stuff to me.

[Grek]

I agree with the person above me on all points.

[Sunday]

I, too, think that perilisk's point is the most logical choice.

I'd like to add the caveat that because of the rarity and uncontrollable nature of dwarven magic, it should be capable of some truly impressive effects.  It would make sense for the artifacts to be truly world changing - whereas standard human and elf magic would act on a more 'local' level.

Of course, my taste tends towards less flashy magic in general, so I'd like it if humans and elves had use complicated rituals to get even minor effects.

I'm pretty sure that one of the artifacts created by the Norse dwarves for the Gods was a purse that turned into a ship capable of holding a huge army and traveling very quickly.

That is awesome.

[Mikademus]

Basically, it makes the most sense for Dwarves "magic" to be their Moods and Artifacts. All it takes is giving the Artifact one or more magical properties based on its creator's personality and desires and the type of mood (with Fell moods more likely to create double-edged items, for example). A dwarf obsessed with wealth would create an ring that could turn random stone into gold once a year, a dwarf terrified of rats would create a mitten that would summon a hoard of spectral cats for a few minutes, what have you. Perhaps dwarves could dedicate items to someone they adore: a god, a lover, a treasured pet.

That is the most rational from a "Dwarves and Dwarven Magic in Norse Mythology" perspective. Then there is the "Consistency With How Dwarf Fortress Works" perspective, which is fully compatible with what you wrote, and in fact has been discussed thoroughly in this thread. However, it is also fully compatible with Runic as a part of or addition to Artificing.

Thing is, though I personally agree with you that the Norse/Edda take on Dwarves is the most appealing one, it is not the only one, the only one that makes sense, or the only one that would work well in DF.

[Quift]

This is an interestring thread and I have some things I would like to add.

the first one is that there is very little discussion on what we want the actually magic to do ingame. If it's about creating artifacts then the current system does quite well. It's important to keep in the spirit of the game that it's not up to the player to decide what happens, it's up to the dwarves. They decide what to do, when and how. You, as a player, can only nudge them along.

So, do I actually want my champions to wield flaming swords which I have created after loads micromanaging myself with a given plan, or d I want to find a use for all sort of random effects and artifacts that may or may not pop up?

the +2 swords we are used to from DnD should be completly out, and Runic magic feels so "done" and boring that I wouldn't bother doing it. It would reduce magic to a rune-workshop where power gamers could ecnhance their weapons before sending them out to massacre goblins en masse. Does this prospect thrill you?

I like the idea of having Adamantine as a magic resource, and I like it even more if it attracts demonic siegers if used. Would rack up the difficulty greatly and have a chance to recreate an actual doom to your fortress since the ordinary siegers are done by with a moat, and the HFS quite easily wiped out with some clever preparations.

The foremost "job" for the player is DF is to create the environment. We suggest what to do, lay out the plans, plan ahead and at the end of the day we pull a lever and hope for the best. Therefor I feel that a combination of Ley lines/fields etc and adamantine would feel quite approtiate.

Say that I have struck adamantine! Now magic begins.

First I can use adamantine to build some proper lay line finder (whatever the name those water finders use is). Then I can give a new task to a dwarf which is "Find ley lines". labourisously he will travel across the map, into every tunnel and register/uncover a "value". this will after quite a while reveal where the lines of fields are. Then I can build special "magnets/lines etc leading the magic field into a specially built room. These powerlines have to be in adamantium, aswell as the generator/battery whatever in the room.

In this room the magic force would be quite higher than anywhere else. there is also a trade-off between how much Adamantine I use for increasing power and how much I want to have left.

Then in the Room I build the special magic building which requires a very complex list of stuff to be properly built.

And now the magic begins!

I have now created a magic flow and lead it into a special place, the very magic heart of my fortress. This thing pulsates which pure magic energy. Which means a number of things will happen. Dwarves become more prone to obsession and fey moods, and will create all sort of items in the magic workshop, all of them containing adamantium, random creatures will appear in the room such as fire elementals, deamons, sprites, minotaurs etc.

And the really interesting siegers will come, the demonic hordes, the undead, anglic beasts with flaming swords, minotaurs etc. All of them will try to overcome the fortress to overtake this magic powered room which actually does nothing for the player except letling him churn out all sorts of random artifacts, most of them useless (albeit insanly valuable).

[Quift]

Damn, stupid of me to not think about this before. The DF world is obviously run on the most basic of all magic substances. The very reason that DnD magic feels inapproriate is that the DnD world is not complex enough to run on this pure essence of magic.

Narrativium.

This should off course be the starting point for all magic systems in DF.

[Mikademus]

So, do I actually want my champions to wield flaming swords which I have created after loads micromanaging myself with a given plan, or d I want to find a use for all sort of random effects and artifacts that may or may not pop up? ... the +2 swords we are used to from DnD should be completly out, and Runic magic feels so "done" and boring that I wouldn't bother doing it. It would reduce magic to a rune-workshop where power gamers could ecnhance their weapons before sending them out to massacre goblins en masse. Does this prospect thrill you?

No it doesn't. But it certainly thrills many players, and that is fine. I do not believe that it is the game maker's decision to artificially limit how a player plays or enjoys the game. As for Runic: "This is an excellent shield. All workmanshipis of the highest level. It is adorned with bands of gold ans threatens with spikes of admantium. It is adorned with agathes. Excellently carved runes encircle it with words of great power." I don't find that old. done or boring.

[Belteshazzar]

I agree with the idea that simple and easily controllable magic like DnD would be boreing. However, Old versions of DnD had some real whacky shit as artifacts and magical items. While a +2 sword is on the very bland ideal of runic magic. A Rubix Cube of Dimensional Control or Wand of Wonder is much more my speed.

I am currently playing Eternal Darkness and one of my favorite things(aside from going mad) is to gather runes, translate and try to mix them up to create sentences and guess the outcome. However, I am often as not disappointed to discover no results because the developers simply could not program reactions between each word. As the number of runes grew the combination grew exponentially and would be be too time consuming, this could be the biggest drawback especially with our small development team.