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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: BoltsFogs on March 25, 2007, 02:34:00 pm

Title: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: BoltsFogs on March 25, 2007, 02:34:00 pm
One of my carpenters was heading down to gather up some ore when an injured troglodyte sprung from ambush. What concerned me was that he triggered a weapon trap which consisted of a single copper giant axe blade. When my carpenter found him, he was stunned and had a yellow left hand and right hand. Which leads me to think that maybe I should rig more blades or whatever into a single weapon trap.

What kind of weapons do you use for your weapon traps? And how many weapons do you usually put in a weapon trap to ensure a good, if not perfect kill ratio?

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Jaqie Fox on March 25, 2007, 04:34:00 pm
Bone crossbows, and dark stone shortswords.

Every path into my fortress you have to go past at least two traps filled with a total of at least 6 swords and at least 3 bone xbows.  I tend to fill traps with no more then one or two bone xbow and no more then three shortswords.  the shortswords are usually first in line for them to go through.  I havent seen anything but kobolds and my own creatures (dwarves and pets and livestock) get through any of my lines.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: JT on March 25, 2007, 04:59:00 pm
Where's the fun in the game if enemies can't hurt you? =)


When I make traps, I make a staggered 25% dither pattern like the following:

code:

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
^...^...^
..^...^..
^...^...^
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓

That way, only a few of the bad guys hit the traps, and I'm set in case Toady decides to go through with implementing my oft-requested "can't walk over set traps" feature. ;-)

Only one weapon allowed per trap.

[ March 25, 2007: Message edited by: JT ]

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: BoltsFogs on March 25, 2007, 05:10:00 pm
I'm not so sure about that crossbow trap cause if one runs out of ammo, you'll be spammed with reload messages or something, forcing the game to crash. At least that's what I read in the wiki. Anyway. six swords in one weapon trap? Wow. Those better guarantee some one hit kills and minimal times of an enemy getting stuck in the trap, rendering it useless until cleaned!
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Entropy on March 25, 2007, 06:17:00 pm
A giant axe blade and corkscrew usually work well enough. The blade does great slashing damage while the corkscrew gives a good critical hit.

I have seen one or two things survive walking into one of these, but they die within seconds after.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Jaqie Fox on March 25, 2007, 06:19:00 pm
you misread my formula.

I end up with something like this:
trap 1: 3 swords
trap 2: 3 swords
trap 3: xbow
trap 4: xbow
trap 5: xbow


besides, I have never had the game crash from out of ammo messages... and I also have a single craftsdwarf doing nothing but cranking out bone bolts... good way of using the extra bones I always end up getting piled up in my indoor refuse pile.  I never run out once that dwarf gets caught up with the demand for them, last fortress I made I ended up with about 20 bins filled with nothing but bone xbow bolts.

~edit~
JT, not every person playing this game relishes in blood gore and war. I personally am an engineer at heart, so I love engineering the fortress. I also love being able to have an agrarian society, no need for a military (save a couple for kobolds et al).  If i want to focus on killing, I could always play the multitude of games out there that let me do that, one of the newest being Supreme Commander (which is great by the way).

[ March 25, 2007: Message edited by: Jaqie ]

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: JT on March 25, 2007, 07:06:00 pm
I don't relish in killing and bloodshed.  But I think it smacks of major lack of realism if you don't have to maintain a standing gendarmerie to protect the masses.  You know things are wacky when people complain til they're blue in the face about the Fortress Guard and Royal Guard, as these guards should be not only welcome but also necessary, at least if human society is any indicator.

Which does remind me that we don't have enough dwarf-versus-dwarf political strife going on...

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: schnobs on March 25, 2007, 08:12:00 pm
I end up with a large army mostly because I find it difficult to keep all dwarfes occupied. Once you've made all the armor, set all the traps, furnished all rooms... not that I never played that far. But based on current experience I'd say once you no longer have to keep up with a growing society, a workforce of maybe 60 dwarves all told is enough to keep the place running. Maybe even less. The rest can be nobles or army, I wouldn't know how to busy  them otherwise.
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: BoltsFogs on March 25, 2007, 09:21:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by schnobs:
<STRONG>I end up with a large army mostly because I find it difficult to keep all dwarfes occupied. Once you've made all the armor, set all the traps, furnished all rooms... not that I never played that far. But based on current experience I'd say once you no longer have to keep up with a growing society, a workforce of maybe 60 dwarves all told is enough to keep the place running. Maybe even less. The rest can be nobles or army, I wouldn't know how to busy  them otherwise.</STRONG>

Right now I'm facing a food and drink problem. My dwarves eat all the food at a constant rate, and I have two stills set on repeated brew with several brewmeisters and I keep teetering around 10 drinks, never able to get past that mark. I think my dwarves drink and eat alot more than any other dwarf fortress out there, hehe.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Kylaer on March 25, 2007, 09:23:00 pm
I generally put 2-3 regular weapons (not specific trap components) per trap. Warhammers, shortswords, and spears, typically, since those are the weapons I mass-produce. I don't make bone crossbows, I prefer metal ones, and certainly wouldn't make crossbow traps, since they need to be reloaded, whereas a warhammer trap will work over and over, with occasional cleaning.
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Paul on March 25, 2007, 10:20:00 pm
I like using spiked balls. They kill things without chopping them up, so the bodies are just 1 item and not a messy pile of limbs. When I used the large serrated discs before, I would have a couple goblin thieves come by and my dwarves would fill my entire refuse pile with arms, legs, hands, feet, heads, lower bodies, upper bodies, etc. With spiked balls I just look over and see a pile of 4 bodies, instead of 40 assorted parts.

My current setup is 3 spiked balls per trap, but that is probably overkill. Especially since they are all masterpiece iron, heh heh... Tons of leftover iron after all the goblin sieges. What else do I do with it all but make legendary weaponsmiths and churn out masterwork trap components?

I even have masterwork iron mechanisms on them all - I don't know if that is why, but I VERY rarely see anything get past the first row of them. An entire goblin siege died on a single row of traps. They never seem to get stuck, and nothing ever moves after hitting them.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: ColonelTEE3 on March 25, 2007, 11:23:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Kylaer:
<STRONG>I generally put 2-3 regular weapons (not specific trap components) per trap. Warhammers, shortswords, and spears, typically, since those are the weapons I mass-produce. I don't make bone crossbows, I prefer metal ones, and certainly wouldn't make crossbow traps, since they need to be reloaded, whereas a warhammer trap will work over and over, with occasional cleaning.</STRONG>

I agree, crossbow traps are just a hassle. You alays have that thought in the back of your mind "but what happens when we DO run out..what do we do then... .WHAT THE HELL DO WE DO THEN!!" Not to mention the annoyingly long time it requires even the greatest of mechanics to load a crossbow traps, and don't even get me started on single bolt stocks.

I use bone bolts to train my army of marksdwarves. And before my fortress fell to the might of mixed up data folders forcing it to be deleted, i had a standing army of 11 elite marksdwarves, several of which were legendary, and maybe only 1 of them had actually "seen action", the rest were chipping away at my target ranges with bone bolts.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Walker on March 25, 2007, 11:46:00 pm
My personal rule for weapon traps is four items.

Any combination of:

- Goblin/kobold/attacker weaponry
- Metalsmith training weapons (bronze/copper/silver)
- Obsidian Short Swords
- Trap components

I only use 'better' quality mechanisms.  This of course relative to the mechanisms available at any given time.

I don't worry too much about exactly what is in any given trap, unless it is at a critical point.  Four weapons will generally kill anything.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: LordBucket on March 26, 2007, 04:40:00 pm
quote:
how many weapons do you usually put in a weapon trap to ensure a good, if not perfect kill ratio?

Only one, but I make up for it with lots of traps. I've never tested, but I've generally assumed that the 'jam' test occurs for every individual weapon firing, so a trap with four weapons is more likely to jam than a trap with only one. So, if true, four traps with a single weapon each is somewhat better than one trap with four.

quote:
What kind of weapons do you use for your weapon traps?

  I tend to not go out of my way to produce weapons for traps, so I mostly use whatever is available, and I use a lot of stonefall traps. Certainly there are reasons to NOT do this, but it works for me. Stonefall traps seem to do a lot of damage, and it's so much easier to supply stone to fill a 5x30 anti-siege entry hall, than to make 150 weapons to do the same. I mostly only use weapon traps at chokepoints. For example:

code:

Weapon  Stonefall  Weapon
|Traps   Traps     Traps
|         |         |
v         v         v
#######################
^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^#####
^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^+ + +
^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^#####
#######################


That way, the weapon traps on either side will take out the casual group of ratmen, or the occassional elephant, without having to reload anything, but the stonefall traps provide a great deal of stopping power if anything serious comes along.

Bucket Man

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: schnobs on March 26, 2007, 05:35:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by LordBucket:
<STRONG>
code:

Weapon  Stonefall  Weapon
|Traps   Traps     Traps
|         |         |
v         v         v



</STRONG>

Hey, that looks familiar. Only that in my case the layers of weapon traps are a bit thicker. And I hope and pray that nothing ever comes reaches the stone-fall traps. They are, in fact, just one means to despose of stone and the thought that someday it might become necessary to reload them is rather frightening.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Eiba on March 26, 2007, 07:23:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
<STRONG>I like using spiked balls. They kill things without chopping them up, so the bodies are just 1 item and not a messy pile of limbs. When I used the large serrated discs before, I would have a couple goblin thieves come by and my dwarves would fill my entire refuse pile with arms, legs, hands, feet, heads, lower bodies, upper bodies, etc. With spiked balls I just look over and see a pile of 4 bodies, instead of 40 assorted parts.</STRONG>

I had a room for releasing prisoners... Really just wild animals that got stuck in my traps that I didn't want to tame...
Just for fun I had put ten masterpiece obsidian shortswords in it... I did not know a groundhog even had that many pieces...
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Pacho on March 26, 2007, 09:50:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
<STRONG>I like using spiked balls. They kill things without chopping them up, so the bodies are just 1 item and not a messy pile of limbs. When I used the large serrated discs before, I would have a couple goblin thieves come by and my dwarves would fill my entire refuse pile with arms, legs, hands, feet, heads, lower bodies, upper bodies, etc. With spiked balls I just look over and see a pile of 4 bodies, instead of 40 assorted parts.
</STRONG>


Thats the part I enjoy the most about sieges, seeing the parts fly around =D

My traps are filled with at least 3 dismembering kind of weapons.  That's if I put any traps at all.  I'd rather have a standing army to protect my fortress though.  I just keep 2-3 squads per location to guard various places around the fortress all year long (rotating between seasons so they don't complain).

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Jaqie Fox on March 26, 2007, 10:34:00 pm
The people that chided my using of crossbow traps seemed to miss one very important thing: they are after at least 6 obsidian shortsword traps, and fulfill the same function as the stonefall traps which others have mentioned without needing a reload after firing ONCE.  The xbow traps I have don't fire often at all because of this, and need reloaded even less.
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: puke on March 26, 2007, 11:48:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by LordBucket:
<STRONG>Only one, but I make up for it with lots of traps. I've never tested, but I've generally assumed that the 'jam' test occurs for every individual weapon firing, so a trap with four weapons is more likely to jam than a trap with only one. So, if true, four traps with a single weapon each is somewhat better than one trap with four.
</STRONG>

i think this is wrong.  i used single weapon traps when my fortress was poor, and i found that they needed cleaning all the time.

then i started using tripple-bronze-disc traps, and i never had to clean them, because the corpses were chopped into such little bits and flung out of the traps.

one row of these would be good enough, except that traps have a "reload" time and large hords can overwhelm even the best traps.

3 rows seems to be quite sufficient, though.  especially if you leave some gaps between rows.

edit: my latest thing is using warhammers in traps, because i want to see enemies flung about and slamed against walls and made to explode.  havent had a chance to see them in action yet, though.  and sadly, dwarfs cant dwarfufacture any Mauls...

[ March 27, 2007: Message edited by: puke ]

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: Paul on March 27, 2007, 01:00:00 pm
I think the mechanism quality might affect the jamming chance and reloading time.

I've had whole lines of enemys swarm over a single trap and pile up on it, and I think it may be because I am using masterpiece mechanisms. Or it could be the masterpiece trap components. Either way, quality seems to make a big difference.

For instance, my chasming hall leading to the chasm where all the ratmen invade from has a single trap on it, and I frequently get a pile of ratmen corpses on it before my haulers start dragging them off. I have yet to have a ratman get past it. One time my refuse pile was full and I ended up with an entire invasion of ratmen, around 35, all piled up on that one tile.

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: BoltsFogs on March 27, 2007, 01:45:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
<STRONG>One time my refuse pile was full and I ended up with an entire invasion of ratmen, around 35, all piled up on that one tile.</STRONG>

You better order your craftsdwarves to make those little green pine trees, cause things are about to get NASTY!

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: puke on March 27, 2007, 03:57:00 pm
i thought you had to trade with the elves for those?
Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: BoltsFogs on March 27, 2007, 11:56:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by puke:
<STRONG>i thought you had to trade with the elves for those?</STRONG>

Hehehe, nicely put. Anyway, I really really appreciate everyone's input, and I have decided to, for now, make a few traps consisting of three obsidian short swords each, and those spiked balls later. Also, ColonelTEE3, what you said had me cracking up, thanks   :D

Title: Re: Weapon traps, the reckoning
Post by: ricemastah on March 28, 2007, 08:14:00 pm
Dude!! Traps with 6 serrated discs!! Blood and guts  everywhere! I have yet to test the line of traps I have against a siege, but I'm sure my military will handle anything left over. Explosions I tell you!. I'm gonna try to get a 256 weapon trap, but that is for later...