I already read about this in that thread about DF Adventure mode-like and was immediately hooked on the project! Could I make a small donation?
I'd love to help keep you motivated ^^
So how much procedural generation is planned for the game, and in what areas?
The game's title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultima_Ratio_Regum_Cannon.jpg) has seduced me. You can be sure I'll be testing it
Interesting... I'll definitely be paying attention to this one.
This has perked my interest. I await the moment I can create an army of undead and kill everyone eagerly.
Any game where you can go from a mercenary/bandit to leader of a demon army sounds fantastic in my book.
But I do have a few questions:
- Will things like elevation and rain effect combat in the finished version?
- What kind of command and control do you have of your army? Do you control squads or the whole army at once? Do you issue more general orders like advance/ charge or specific ones such as: move here, dig in, prepare ambush?
- Will there be stealth?
- Will there be formations and their inherent complexities or will it be largely skirmishes?
The game's title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultima_Ratio_Regum_Cannon.jpg) has seduced me. You can be sure I'll be testing it
The game's title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultima_Ratio_Regum_Cannon.jpg) has seduced me. You can be sure I'll be testing it
Japan has had a monopoloy in nonsensical titles for toooooo long.
This game is my most anticipated roguelike :)
Another game to keep track of. Looking good so far!
Looking forward to the alpha, godspeed and all that. Many ideas in here are ones I've always wanted to see properly implemented (recruitment of any npc, realistic troop command).
On the blog you ask what the alpha should focus most on, Creatures, Combat, AI or UI. I would suggest getting a nice and streamlined UI right from the start. If it's clunky to begin with, it will only get worse (and harder to fix) as new features are added. I think I remember some other strategy roguelike suffering from this particular issue. The other stuff, while perhaps cooler, will doubtlessly continue to expand after the first alpha anyway, so it seems completely understandable to keep it simple for the first release.
The game's title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultima_Ratio_Regum_Cannon.jpg) has seduced me. You can be sure I'll be testing it
Japan has had a monopoloy in nonsensical titles for toooooo long.
It's not really nonsensical at all, just slightly obscure. It makes perfect sense if you know the history of the phrase.
looks like DF's adventure mode, except with more features.
in a couple of months, this game will probably largely seperate from that and end up like a completely different game :)
looks good, keep it up!
Sounds awesome. A game where I can send out adventurers and can do the adventuring if I want or don't want to is something I have dreamed of.
I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!")
I hope gaming in general becomes much more rich with this.I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!")
Exactly! We need a lot more roguelikes with a better combat system.
Oh also, will there be wrestling? :D
Unarmed combat is included in DF and it's a lot damn fun. There isn't much use for it when you got a sword though.
While humans, elves and dwarves
just another thing I'd like to say:
please make it as quickly as possible! it looks epic!
Looks amazing, keep it up!
This looks fantastic, really liking the descriptive DF Adv mode style combat system you have in place. I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!"), so this is indeed a breath of fresh air.
Oh also, will there be wrestling? :D
Unarmed combat is included in DF and it's a lot damn fun. There isn't much use for it when you got a sword though.
I hope gaming in general becomes much more rich with this.
QuoteWhile humans, elves and dwarves
Ohh for a second I thought this took place in the Ultima universe. But that laid my worries to rest.
Wow... This looks amazing, I was looking at the screen shots, will it have combat damage similar to dwarf fortress? As in can hack off one guys head then beat another guy to death with it or strangle someone or cut out their eyes Ect....
This looks really good any ideas on when a alpha will be available ?
And any chance of any graphics? I like to switch between what DF is normally like and a graphics pack so would be nice to have a feature to pick which one you want.
Looks great so far! How are you going to handle facing? Normally rogue likes tend not to deal with facing at all, which makes some sense when you're dealing with a single adventurer, but when you're modeling a squad of soldiers it doesn't seem quite right...
Looks good! I look forward to seeing how the project develops.
Did you guys pay attention to the image? I think he used his both weapons at the same time. I love dual wielding!
Got plans for a graphical tileset support?
just another thing I'd like to say:
please make it as quickly as possible! it looks epic!
I'm very excited for this game, and you've clearly got some positive buzz going. Best of luck!
Personally, I'd be exceedingly pleased if you added framework for modding as soon as possible. The longer into development you wait to do so, the harder it will be to implement and the less feature-rich it will be upon deployment.
Dwarf Fortress's modding framework has made adding tiles to the game as simple as some pngs and a couple plaintext config files.
Anecdotally, I've found that people keep coming back to DF for its great mods and ease of modding, as much as they do for its unique gameplay!
Looking forward to the alpha release. Again, best of luck!
Mount and blade roguelike? gimme!
Looks nice!
(and free :P)
Looks amazing, keep it up!
I generally tackle the enemy, kick in their shoulders, rip off their hands and feet, strangle them, and then rip their throat out.I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!")
Exactly! We need a lot more roguelikes with a better combat system.
Oh also, will there be wrestling? :D
Unarmed combat is included in DF and it's a lot damn fun. There isn't much use for it when you got a sword though.
Cruelty is necessary to have !!FUN!!that's just unnecessarily cruel!I generally tackle the enemy, kick in their shoulders, rip off their hands and feet, strangle them, and then rip their throat out.I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!")
Exactly! We need a lot more roguelikes with a better combat system.
Oh also, will there be wrestling? :D
Unarmed combat is included in DF and it's a lot damn fun. There isn't much use for it when you got a sword though.
I use an axe for help on the feet sometimes. :P
that's dwarven.
You're talking to Necro910, the infamous dwarf who shouts magma as the solution to everything. The dwarf who kicks in the door of a castle, cut off the hands and feet of all the guards (Whilst they are all fighting me, not this one-on-one elfshit), then throw them over the wall onto the fleeing nobles. The Necro910 that slaughters off entire towns, sometimes multiple ones in one day.that's just unnecessarily cruel!I generally tackle the enemy, kick in their shoulders, rip off their hands and feet, strangle them, and then rip their throat out.I cannot tell you how heartily sick I am of generic combat in roguelike games ("You hit the Elf! It is wounded! You hit the Elf! It is dead!")
Exactly! We need a lot more roguelikes with a better combat system.
Oh also, will there be wrestling? :D
Unarmed combat is included in DF and it's a lot damn fun. There isn't much use for it when you got a sword though.
I use an axe for help on the feet sometimes. :P
that's dwarven.
Posting to follow as my bookmark bar is pretty stuffed already
It's gonna be like Mount&blade in roguelike style with Dwarf Fortress combat system :D
Now thinking about M&B, a lot of ideas can be borrowed (stolen) from that game. I can think of a few right now.
- Your lieutenants may rebel against you or argue with other lieutenants.
- Romance. Dueling against other suitors. Will you marry a general's daughter, someone you actually love and stuff like that.
- Special characters that will travel with you if you hire them. They would give you a bonus to things like travelling speed on the world map.
I generally tackle the enemy, kick in their shoulders, rip off their hands and feet, strangle them, and then rip their throat out.
I use an axe for help on the feet sometimes. :P
Cruelty is necessary to have !!FUN!!
What kind of characters will you be able to create?
(Eg: will it work like in conquest of elysium?)
Oooooh... Looks super cool. Posting to follow.
It's gonna be like Mount&blade in roguelike style with Dwarf Fortress combat system :D
Now thinking about M&B, a lot of ideas can be borrowed (stolen) from that game. I can think of a few right now.
- Your lieutenants may rebel against you or argue with other lieutenants.
- Romance. Dueling against other suitors. Will you marry a general's daughter, someone you actually love and stuff like that.
- Special characters that will travel with you if you hire them. They would give you a bonus to things like travelling speed on the world map.
The first of those three will definitely happen, but within the area of managing your army and the disparate factions in it. I'm undecided how relationships between you/NPCs and NPCs/NPCs will work thus far, and I'm actually leaning away from having any 'special' characters! Some might have specific useful skills, but they won't be 'uniques'. Does what I mean by that distinction make sense?
You mean characters like trackers(better speed on the map), trainers (trains soldiers), bards (morale boost), etc? Dealing with unique characters would be difficult but having some non-warriors on your team would make the game realistic. Which army didn't have medics in the history? :D
I don't have any ideas about relationships topic. There should be a relationship status about your friends and enemies but how would that work? Your enemies randomly attacking you on the map or something? Hmmmm...
It may work out like this:You mean characters like trackers(better speed on the map), trainers (trains soldiers), bards (morale boost), etc? Dealing with unique characters would be difficult but having some non-warriors on your team would make the game realistic. Which army didn't have medics in the history? :D
I don't have any ideas about relationships topic. There should be a relationship status about your friends and enemies but how would that work? Your enemies randomly attacking you on the map or something? Hmmmm...
Something along those lines. There will definitely be medic and other non-combat characters you can recruit, from all species, cities, factions, whatever. You'll definitely want medics there when you have a pike lodged in your face! As for how your enemies attack you on the map... well, that's still being worked on, but I'm very happy with how it's now looking :)
It may work out like this:
Player and Bandit squad leader are enemies
Smuggler squad leader is friends with Bandit squad leader and Player but he likes Bandit squad leader more.
Player kills Bandit squad leader by taking a quest about it, randomly encountering, tracking him down, whatever.
One of these might happen:
Smuggler squad leader tracks down Player and attacks him. If Player can't calm him down (diplomacy skill check) he becomes an enemy
Smuggler squad leader sends a warning to Player. Relationship status becomes Neutral
Smuggler squad leader doesn't do anything because Player is more strong than he is and Player helped him a lot. but becomes more catious against Player
We have a long way down for an update like this. Alpha isn't even released yet but I'm just throwing out ideas.
Sounds cool.
Sounds good and realistic :)It may work out like this:
Player and Bandit squad leader are enemies
Smuggler squad leader is friends with Bandit squad leader and Player but he likes Bandit squad leader more.
Player kills Bandit squad leader by taking a quest about it, randomly encountering, tracking him down, whatever.
One of these might happen:
Smuggler squad leader tracks down Player and attacks him. If Player can't calm him down (diplomacy skill check) he becomes an enemy
Smuggler squad leader sends a warning to Player. Relationship status becomes Neutral
Smuggler squad leader doesn't do anything because Player is more strong than he is and Player helped him a lot. but becomes more catious against Player
We have a long way down for an update like this. Alpha isn't even released yet but I'm just throwing out ideas.
That sounds about right, actually - however, individuals and factions will only track you down with violence intended if they think they have a legitimate shot. Which is to say, the bandit leader would only come after you on his own if you were alone, or maybe had one ally; he'd bring some allies if you had a small bunch, and if you wearing leading an army, he'd presumably either try to catch you when you are on your own, or get back at you by non-physical means...
Sounds good and realistic :)
Your home town is selected at random, based on those owned by your species. I considered letting you select a town, but that would reveal the map, and exploration, discovering new lands and the like are going to end up as a significant goal in the game.
Just a few thoughts that occurred to me while reading the latest devblog.
Buying items with the same points you use to buy skills is a bit risky. As you advance skills and attributes while progressing through the game they'll stack with the ones you bought at character creation, whereas items will generally be replaced as you obtain better ones. This makes it a better choice to invest as many points as possible in skills and attributes and only take the bare minimum items required for initial survival. A Bronze Axe is only useful until you find a Steel Axe, but +1 Strength lasts forever. It's not necessarily gamebreaking or anything, but doesn't feel balanced.
Just a few thoughts that occurred to me while reading the latest devblog.
Buying items with the same points you use to buy skills is a bit risky. As you advance skills and attributes while progressing through the game they'll stack with the ones you bought at character creation, whereas items will generally be replaced as you obtain better ones. This makes it a better choice to invest as many points as possible in skills and attributes and only take the bare minimum items required for initial survival. A Bronze Axe is only useful until you find a Steel Axe, but +1 Strength lasts forever. It's not necessarily gamebreaking or anything, but doesn't feel balanced.QuoteYour home town is selected at random, based on those owned by your species. I considered letting you select a town, but that would reveal the map, and exploration, discovering new lands and the like are going to end up as a significant goal in the game.
I don't think you've ever mentioned how map-generation works. Is it procedurally generated at the start of each game, or a more DF-like system where you can play in the same world over and over again? If it's the latter, I would put more weight in letting the player choose his starting city, otherwise it probably doesn't particularly matter to most players.
As a compromise, you could let the player choose a city without revealing it's location on the map, and just give population/racial makeup/industries/whatever as information. Or only reveal territory owned by the race you selected, which would probably be considered pretty common knowledge within a society.
Putting this on watch.
Unless it's like DF with the skills and stuff. So you can choose steel axe and start off untrained in axe skill, with 500 xp to get to basic. Or start with the bronze axe and basic, and 1000 xp to get to trained.
Will titans be able to wield you and/or other NPCs/animals as weapons?
You're welcome! I was busy as well and I noticed the blog update a bit late. About the Monday update, I hope impaling won't be like DF. If you got an arrow stuck in your body you could virtually live forever with it.
And I was thinking, it would be cool to get a bunch of low-lifes and become a bandit leader. Most people (like me) like to have a choice between good and evil or law and chaos in RPGs.
Well, I don't expect the Alpha version to be anything big. I'm just curious about the combat system. Like impaling or bleeding out. Things like becoming a bandit leader can come later. :D
My only wish is that it isent one of those games which goes "Oh hey, strategy = select all units, right click enemy" or the also common "rock paper scissors, melee-ranged-cav" as only mechanic. I want ambushes, flanking, several different moral stats, cutting off supplys, hungering em out, double agents, fake army sizes, greater reasons - affecting certain morals - like a army using slaves as combat units that you can free (basically a indirect: Your leader charisma vs enemy leaders charisma + slave skill with % bonus of situation (no enemy troops near = good) and so on.
But hey, one can dream. Or learn to code instead of bitch on forums : P
My only wish is that it isent one of those games which goes "Oh hey, strategy = select all units, right click enemy" or the also common "rock paper scissors, melee-ranged-cav" as only mechanic. I want ambushes, flanking, several different moral stats, cutting off supplys, hungering em out, double agents, fake army sizes, greater reasons - affecting certain morals - like a army using slaves as combat units that you can free (basically a indirect: Your leader charisma vs enemy leaders charisma + slave skill with % bonus of situation (no enemy troops near = good) and so on.
But hey, one can dream. Or learn to code instead of bitch on forums : P
Well, there's no mouse control, for starters :)
But I know exactly what you mean. Pretty much everything you listed are things I hope to have implemented at some point! There's no RPS-style combat and you will only be able to control forces by telling whoever is in charge of that platoon/battalion to move their soldiers there. They'll then make a judgment themselves, and each soldier also makes it own judgment when the time comes. You can't 'magically' control units over a distance - you actually need to establish contact with your sub-commanders at a distance to get in touch with and command them. In a way, then, it's an 'army simulator' as well as everything else...
Holy crap, this game looks to be amazing. I actually just started programming a game intended to be almost exactly like this, but I feel like I should not even attempt it anymore due to this game being almost exactly what I want.
I'm also using Python + libtcod. What code editor/IDE do you use? I'm using IDLE and it's annoying that it crashes every time I close the libtcod window.
Heh. Being able to control everything through a magical screen gets boring after a while. There are some games that try to make it seem logical. In Red Alert 2 it felt like (or game tried to make you feel like) you were logging in to a battlefield-screen-thing. When I played that game for the first time, that's when I realized the weirdness of being able to control everything like a god in strategy games.
There are two military ranks in strategy games. You -the player- who controls everything and gives orders. And all others who do the fightning. I hope this game will be a lot different with a hierarchic command system.
When it comes to command hierarchy, there are lots of things to give attention to...
1. Chain of command. Commander doesn't do everything. Soldiers of the Squad A doesn't answer to the leader of the Squad B and things like that...
2. Communication. We didn't have cellphones or telegraphs in middle ages. Things can turn into a game of Chinese Whispers if you aren't careful.
3. If a high-ranking officer makes a bad call, those who carry the orders out aren't responsible. That high-ranking officer is the one who made the decision and he is the one who is responsible.
A commander isn't responsible for everything and a soldier who executes orders given to him isn't responsible for everything. A cadet doesn't answer to the field marshal. It was all simple in Red Alert 2 right?
"Yes, comrade general"
it looks like text based...You really ARE an escaped lunatic...
id rather have some grafics stuff that i can actualy see for what they are....
try this one
http://roguesurvivor.blogspot.com/p/download.html
am i allowed to post links?
In all strategy games - even those set, say, in medieval times, when you wouldn't have had instant communication - the commander somehow has total omnipotent control over their forces.
By the crashing, do you mean when you F5, the window appears, then you close it and it crashes? If so, you want to close the Python shell, not the libtcod window itself!
it looks like text based...
id rather have some grafics stuff that i can actualy see for what they are....
There's at least one exception: in Centurion: Defender of Rome, your command over troops was limited by the general's "voice".
Each unit has a commander and a staff, each with their own capacity to command and manage the units under them. You, the player, can assign a task to any unit in the chain of command. The artificial intelligence (AI) controlling the unit will then assess the task, develop a plan and give orders to its subordinates. In turns, they will develop their own plan and issue their own orders down the line.
In a typical operational level turn based system you have two to four hour turns so your options for varying the order delay period are minimal. You can't adequately differentiate between efficient commands and those that aren't. And yet in real life this difference wins battles. Getting inside your opponents decision making cycle means you can gain the initiative. You can have your forces moving before he can respond adequately. Your opponent ends up always responding and always too late to effectively counter you."
Pretty good games, I am slowly working my way through the series.
By the crashing, do you mean when you F5, the window appears, then you close it and it crashes? If so, you want to close the Python shell, not the libtcod window itself!
Yeah, I was following the python + libtcod tutorial, and they mentioned there was a specific problem with IDLE that caused a crash on trying to exit (so you'd press Esc, and it would just hang), but after looking at the forums this morning, I saw that by adding "libtcod.console_delete (None)" to the end of the program, it stopped the hang.
it looks like text based...
id rather have some grafics stuff that i can actualy see for what they are....
Heh. Being able to control everything through a magical screen gets boring after a while. There are some games that try to make it seem logical. In Red Alert 2 it felt like (or game tried to make you feel like) you were logging in to a battlefield-screen-thing. When I played that game for the first time, that's when I realized the weirdness of being able to control everything like a god in strategy games.
"Yes, comrade general"
Red Alert 2 - what a great game! I prefer the earlier classic C&Cs, but RA2 had a certain something...
Anybody have played Romance of Three Kingdoms?Romance of the Three Kingdoms had, uh, an absolute bucketload of different versions. Sequels, et al. Plus a vaguely unnumerable amount of spinoffs, related series, things named the same or nearly the same, etc, etc, etc. Any particular one you had in mind? I haven't played many of 'em, and none of them for very long, but I do understand the mechanics can change around a bit from game to game.
I know what you mean. RA2 was different. I didn't bother to try RA3, I was still curious, my cousin (he taught me everything I know about RA2 when I was a kid) got to play it and he said "pretty much every unit can go from both sea and land"
I suppose RA3 wasn't a big success.
Anybody have played Romance of Three Kingdoms? You could confuse your enemies in different ways. You could send a fake order which would force the enemy army to retreat to the closest town, trick the enemy army into attacking their allies, confuse the commander and freeze them for 1 round, save an allied army from confusion, and probably some more I don't rembember now. It was difficult to confuse the commanders if they have a high INT and your commander has a low INT. Even if they fall for it they give responses like "A retreat order? That doesn't make sense" but they had to follow the fake order.
There were also personalities. If I rembember correctly personalities were Timid, Cool, Bold and Reckless. They didn't have much effect though. Biggest effect I noticed was a reckless officer once who would attack the enemy randomly without my order. You should definitely include personalities in this game. A simple loyalty system won't be enough.
Fire was a very important tool. Most traps involved fire. Setting fire very close to enemy was difficult. Fire has been used as a weapon in the history and I hope to see fire as a weapon in this game too. Think of all the traps and possibilities!
RA3 might not have been much of a success, but it has a expansion that is pretty fun to mess around in just for the ridiculous units it aadded, even though said expansion doesn't work in MP obviously.
RA3 also has this thing, (http://theredalert.cnclabs.com/) which may or may not be better than the above in your opinion.
All of 'em were based off of the literary Romance of the Three Kingdoms, for those that didn't know. It's pretty much one of the biggest (both in terms of historical/cultural impact and sheer size) pieces of Chinese literature in existence, from what I understand. One of the true classic books in existence, really. There's a few translations running around the 'net, yeah.
--
Anyway, URR. Questions I've randomly pulled out to actually add to discussion: Will any race choices have radical gameplay impact? Will a hivemind or full-on aquatic race exist, for example? Boats, tunneling?
Can anything more be said on the magic system? I've been playing Vapors of Insanity a bit, lately, and I have to say a sort of, I guess, noun/verb driven (A firebolt, ferex, is mixing the spell of missile with the spell of fire), almost totally freeform system would be absolutely delicious (especially with a more accessible UI :P). Basically, how complex is the complex systems you mention in the blog :P
This looks excellent!
I had two questions but I forgot the other...
you said it will be difficult to move once grappled unless the grappler/grappelee is big, would a large flying creature be able to pick you up and drop you from a height?
I wonder, if this were possible, if you could be dropped onto/drop someone else onto another creature and kill them...
the last act in your life- killing a cow by landing on it from 500 meters.
RotTK is actually in my amazon wishlist! I mean, three hundred other novels are, but there you go.
That looks pretty sweet actually, although I'm not sure I like the banding effect going on. Its like all the biomes are put smushed together in layers(which is probably fairly realistic) instead of having N/S variation.
Then again, that could just be an effect of the random number generator. :P
Looks like someone covered africa in a giant flag.
This whole project looks really neat. I'll keep an eye on it.
One thing I noticed that's odd about the map, though, is how all of the outlying islands are very, very small and just sort of scattered around. Other than that, it looks great.
This looks really really cool. It's been said before, but, nice job!There's already a blog post about magic. Search the website.
I have a couple of questions though:
Firstly, will we be able to take trophies from fallen enemies? Say, we just slew a dragon or some other fantastical beast, can I cut off its head, or butcher it and carry its skull with me? Could I take the ear of some sort of Orc Chieftan I just killed as a nostalgic token? It'd be pretty cool to mount slain enemies' heads on pikes, as well.
Second, do you ever plan on implementing any sort of magic in the game? It's already in a sort of fantasy-esque setting, with mystical creatures, but in terms of spells, spellcasters, or anything like that, do you have anything planned? And if you do have something planned, will it be a sort of simple fireball/lightning/pointy-hats kind of system, or more complex, like in terms of the Eragon series, where magic is dictated by the manipulation of real-world forces and energy, and you could abuse certain laws of nature to your own ends? I ask because I've always loved games that feature magical beings, but only sparsely, and those who are able to use magic could destroy entire armies if they had enough preparation.
It'd be horribly complex, but I think you could decently abstract a system that allowed you to do this sort of thing. Plus, it might spice up combat to more than just "whoever has more dudes win".
This looks great! Watching.
This looks really really cool. It's been said before, but, nice job!
I have a couple of questions though:
Firstly, will we be able to take trophies from fallen enemies? Say, we just slew a dragon or some other fantastical beast, can I cut off its head, or butcher it and carry its skull with me? Could I take the ear of some sort of Orc Chieftan I just killed as a nostalgic token? It'd be pretty cool to mount slain enemies' heads on pikes, as well.
Second, do you ever plan on implementing any sort of magic in the game? It's already in a sort of fantasy-esque setting, with mystical creatures, but in terms of spells, spellcasters, or anything like that, do you have anything planned? And if you do have something planned, will it be a sort of simple fireball/lightning/pointy-hats kind of system, or more complex, like in terms of the Eragon series, where magic is dictated by the manipulation of real-world forces and energy, and you could abuse certain laws of nature to your own ends? I ask because I've always loved games that feature magical beings, but only sparsely, and those who are able to use magic could destroy entire armies if they had enough preparation.
It'd be horribly complex, but I think you could decently abstract a system that allowed you to do this sort of thing. Plus, it might spice up combat to more than just "whoever has more dudes win".
Trophies sound like an interest <eventual mechanic>, though. Especially with a moral system, even moreso with one that has cultural -- or at least racial -- differences. The potential/eventual necromancy spells could have interesting and/or amusing interactions with them.
It'd be a bit of a surprise if your head-on-pike suddenly started trying to gnaw your arm off.
Ultima ration regum:I'd throw some holes in there though, In case I run into any hetero victims.
kill a necromancer, become a necromancer, kill an army, own an army of phalluses!
Thanks a ton! Now, to answer your queries:If you allow me to mount the heads of my enemies on pikes like the cowards they are and charge in to battle like the crazy bastard I am you can have my babies forever.
1) Body parts can come off foes in combat (arms, hands, wings, whatever) and you can certainly pick them up and hold on to them. For different creatures, different parts of their bodies will impress others more, and therefore make better trophies - a Behemoth tusk, a Dragon head, etc. I love the mounting on pikes idea - you could lead them into battle against others of their kind for morale damage. Mind if I steal that idea? :)
2) Yeah, as said on the last page, there's going to be a kind of freeform magic where you construct spells, and several totally unique schools of magic which require different rituals, equipment, knowledge etc. The latter are more long-term things you do before a battle, or to prepare yourself, or raise an army, or deal with deities, or whatever, while the freeform spells are for the heat of combat, so they're more traditional attack/defense etc!
I think you're right - it should make things more complex, but anyway, the strengths of creatures vary so wildly I hope there'll be variation in most-soldiers-equals-victory :)
Will there be sandwyrms? I mean like shai halud form dune and the like?Those aren't wyrms, though. They're giant eaters of everything in worm form.
So perhaps in the future you can go solo and bait an enemy army into an area you've set traps on, which kills quite a few of them and cuts off any method of retreat and then resurrect said dead to cause panic
Also, is there "NPC Development" anywhere? Such as unaligned NPC leaders which lead an army of mercenaries/rebels that can be hired by you or fight against you as rivals, a group of far-flung and forgotten villages/towns of random alignments form an alliance and break away from their inept rulers, or a legendary creature that grows powerful and "famous" enough to develop a cult of worshipers; all of which can eventually become kingdoms/countires if given enough time.
Looks interesting...
But how will the combat be, like: If you skewer an opponent will he die instantly, will he be knocked out and bleed to death, or will the fight continue?
Will skewering or decapacitation happen by luck or by taking advantage of openings?
How common are openings and do they happen when: Getting hit, missing, stumbling, outside involvement (stray arrows, pushes, distractions), getting parried, terrible martial arts, pain, lack of caution, or something else?
Will combat be different depending on class/personality, Will a berserker fight differently and take more chances than a royal guard.?
How much harder will it be to fight an opponent with a shield, will there be different sizes, will different sizes and weights affect ranged and melee protection?
Will fights be (normally) decided by criticals (skewering, decapacitation) or slug fests (hitting each other until one of them falls dead)
How will team work, work: Can soldiers team up to fight one enemy (obvious but still...), how will it effect the opponent, can they attack simultaniously (soldier 1 attacks kobold. Kobold parries. Soldier 2 skewers kobold :'(), and how will teaming up affect morale for the soldiers and the victims?
Can a general join the battle and shout orders to commanders directly, and can he lead his own regiment of bodyguards?
What happens when commanders get killed: Will the soldiers rout, will the soldiers spread out and fight more disorganized, will there be a vice commander, will they join other regiments, and what happens if all commanders in the battle get killed?
Will there be a morale system?
Will there ever be mouse control?
Is my list of questions long enough :P
Oh, I forgot the obvious questions:
1. What's the expected number of soldiers in a "medium" battle?
2. What kind of CPU load are we looking at here?
If it's going to have to track multiple variables for each individual soldier for both armies - not including environmental effects such as weather, temperature, and magic, among others - we're going to eat up a lot of CPU per turn. I don't want this to turn into a second Academagia.
If you allow me to mount the heads of my enemies on pikes like the cowards they are and charge in to battle like the crazy bastard I am you can have my babies forever.
Didn't mean any offense by the "dude=dude" comment. I know it'll be more complex than that.
Also, what about riding animals? I suppose there will be horses and stuff, but I'm curious as how you plan on handling that. And perhaps, we could tame and ride other creatures, like the aforementioned dragons? It might take a little bit away from their imposing image, though, if you just view them as potential epic mounts.
Will there be sandwyrms? I mean like shai halud form dune and the like?
Still can't wait for the alpha to be released, and your worldgen looks awesome (despite being a little too locked to longitude).
How did you deal with AI objects blocking another AI's pathfinding? I'm using libtcod's built-in A*, and although it works wonderfully, the AI doesn't realize that other AI objects block its path (both the map coordinates and objects have a "blocked" property). I tried setting it up so that every turn, an object will temporarily cause the map coords to become blocked, but the program freaked out when I had it update on every AI turn - which is necessary for the AI to take into account how the other AIs moved.
I vaguely remember that you could use your own callback function instead of using the tcod map class to do the pathfinding, if that helps.
http://doryen.eptalys.net/data/libtcod/doc/1.5.1/html2/path_init.html?c=false&cpp=false&cs=false&py=true&lua=false
I think you just return a 0.0 the tile is blocked (by a wall or monster) and a 1.0 otherwise.
I have no idea how Ultima RR is doing it, but the usual answer is to make the AI pretty dumb. :P
Chances are each entity doesn't really need to know about every single tile to do what it needs to do. Its generally just something like
1) Check my status
2) Check a target or two near me
3) Decide what to do with that, which is usually:
- run away,
- run towards
- stab with the stabby sword
If you have a bunch of entities, then it'll probably look smart enough.
I have no idea how Ultima RR is doing it, but the usual answer is to make the AI pretty dumb. :P
Chances are each entity doesn't really need to know about every single tile to do what it needs to do. Its generally just something like
1) Check my status
2) Check a target or two near me
3) Decide what to do with that, which is usually:
- run away,
- run towards
- stab with the stabby sword
If you have a bunch of entities, then it'll probably look smart enough.
That's actually exactly what my AI does right now (although the commander AI issues some pretty silly commands to the squad leaders, who either move where the commander tells them, or have their men charge). The issue is that when I have a squad of 10 vs another squad of 10, the pathfinding AI creates a traffic jam, where there will only be 1 guy from each side fighting, with the rest of the squad piled up behind them, each one trying to get at that "closest enemy" and not recognizing that there's another guy blocking their path. I can (and will, soon) change them to look for something other than the closest enemy, but that doesn't solve the core issue of them not realizing objects obstruct their paths.
Maybe something like this:
**CODE**
In theory I think that would avoid the traffic jam issue.
Edit: I should probably stop derailing the thread though.
Edit 2: Fixed a logic error where unit would try to avoid walking next to himself. :P
Thanks! I appreciate the help. And as long as nobody else is trying to carry on a discussion, and we're bumping this thread to the front page, I don't think derailing the thread is a bad thing.
I'm still having trouble understanding the custom function though - don't you need it to loop through EVERY tile on the map, along with every object? Here's my pathfinding function, and my move function:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The trouble is obviously in my path_func - if I comment out the objects bit, it works fine (but the pathfinding doesn't take into account other objects: the very issue I want to solve); but if I keep the object code in, nobody moves. Any thoughts? Feel free to pm me if you don't want to clutter the thread.
Nope. The a* algorithm is the one that calls the function whenever its appropriate. The custom path function ONLY tells the A* algorithm if the current cell is accessible or not.
Your code is almost right I think. I'd take out all the checking of the xFrom and yFrom. Only look at xTo and yTo when doing the comparisons. The problem is that xFrom and yFrom are probably always going to match against the unit who is trying to move. He is essentially blocking himself. So your code would be more like:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think that would probably work.
Hey, as long as i will be able to recruit an band o minotaurs in good :PMy preference would be to kill your minotaurs and then add them to my band of undeads.
Hey, as long as i will be able to recruit an band o minotaurs in good :PMy preference would be to kill your minotaurs and then add them to my band of undeads.
...Will that be possible?
Seems like it is.So perhaps in the future you can go solo and bait an enemy army into an area you've set traps on, which kills quite a few of them and cuts off any method of retreat and then resurrect said dead to cause panic *snip*
Up to this point, you're bang on the money! :P
looks like the B12 forums love this kind of game, it has a fair few followers and it isn't even released in alpha!If the dev wasn't going to start a thread I was going to do it. Nobody (especially Bay 12 community) should miss this game.
As long as you can encounter stuff like Bear Cavalry then I'm good.
However, be sure to include some exotic units. For example, the Dwarves could have a gigantic Wombat that they essentially get really mad and then turn loose on the enemy ranks where it acts like the animal equivalent of an armed tank. Since in real life, they are built like tanks to begin with and are fairly dangerous despite their size then they could be a cool and unique unit.
Then have the overhanging danger that they could turn against your forces and cause as much damage and you have something that wouldn't even be thought about.
I see a lot of questions which were answered in the blog. Still, our helpful developer who answered all these questions without pointing that out. Now I feel bad about saying that.
Erm... "helpful developer" sounds nice but your nick may be confused with your game title and I don't know what to call you :D Would you prefer Mark Johnson, Mark, Mr. Johnson (not the movie), Mark the Genius, The Overlord or Terminator? Just making silly jokes but seriously, you are a genius or very brave for starting a huge game like this :D
By the way, how are you going to implement riding?
Still can't wait for the alpha to be released, and your worldgen looks awesome (despite being a little too locked to longitude).
How did you deal with AI objects blocking another AI's pathfinding? I'm using libtcod's built-in A*, and although it works wonderfully, the AI doesn't realize that other AI objects block its path (both the map coordinates and objects have a "blocked" property). I tried setting it up so that every turn, an object will temporarily cause the map coords to become blocked, but the program freaked out when I had it update on every AI turn - which is necessary for the AI to take into account how the other AIs moved.
No, you are right. I'll keep it in pms or in the programming help thread. Sorry about that!
Bump, because this seems like exactly the game of my dreams.
Posting to encourage and to follow the project.
Same as above. Hoping to see URR become something grand :)
looks like the B12 forums love this kind of game, it has a fair few followers and it isn't even released in alpha!
Hey, as long as i will be able to recruit an band o minotaurs in good :PMy preference would be to kill your minotaurs and then add them to my band of undeads.
...Will that be possible?
Seems like it is.
Hopefully we'll be able to tear out their bones to raise as skeletons. Then use the remaining bags of flesh to form flesh horrors. And use the pools of blood to make blood golems. Maybe some mutant organs like acid spitting stomachs, worms made out of intestines that constrict and swallow you whole and then slowly digest you, or compound flying brains that can cast spells.
Waste not, want not.
If the dev wasn't going to start a thread I was going to do it. Nobody (especially Bay 12 community) should miss this game.
New blog post is up: http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/
This mirrors my views on "quests" exactly. I never liked pre-programmed quests in RPGs, so it will be nice to see a game that has characters with real motivations try to recruit you to their cause, and the results of your actions actually affecting the world.
I like the sound of it already. How "defined" are the objectives of said quests though?
Say, if the objective was "Don't let Faction X take over Area Y", could I complete it by nuking the entire place to kingdom come?
Back with more questions :D
First of all: Will you be able to climb?
And can you stand on someones shoulders in order to reach a high ledge (or just ride him :P)
And you wrote something 'bout weapons reach... Could you climb on a Titans/other large beasts back and stab his/her/hir head from there (or just ride it :P), or can you *again* stand on someones shoulders and stab the beasts head from there, or just stand on a ledge and just say 'f*ck it' and jump 10 meters down and stab its head (or miss and fall to your death).?
And could you actually damage (or kill, maim, or just splat) someone by just falling on them?
And could you corner (or whatever it's called) someone at the edge of a VERY deep hole, yell 'Sparta!!!!', and kick him down the hole :P :D
Edit: Oh and i cant wait 'till it's released :D
The Opened Way started to play in my head as I read that post.I can empathize with that. I have the song on my MP3. :D
Different species and races speak different languages. You begin only able to speak the language of your species (Human, Dwarven or Elvish), but have the ability to learn other tongues. The more of a language you know, the more of that speech you are able to understand, and therefore the greater the ease with which you can trade, exchange information, and form alliances.
The Opened Way started to play in my head as I read that post.I can empathize with that. I have the song on my MP3. :D
From the "about" page of the blogQuoteDifferent species and races speak different languages. You begin only able to speak the language of your species (Human, Dwarven or Elvish), but have the ability to learn other tongues. The more of a language you know, the more of that speech you are able to understand, and therefore the greater the ease with which you can trade, exchange information, and form alliances.
This reminded me the language skills from TES: Daggerfall.
Can we learn the language of demonic creatures? :D
Oh yes! Fourteen languages currently on the list. But as for who'd be willing to teach you a demonic language, that's a different matter...Willing?
Oh yes! Fourteen languages currently on the list. But as for who'd be willing to teach you a demonic language, that's a different matter...Willing?
I shall slay them and revive 'em as my demonic scribe.
Oh yes! Fourteen languages currently on the list. But as for who'd be willing to teach you a demonic language, that's a different matter...Willing?
I shall slay them and revive 'em as my demonic scribe.
Heh. Now this raises an idea that if someone has a particular skill - can teach you a weapon, or a language, or knows a map location, or whatever - and won't tell you for whatever reason, you can kill them, resurrect them, and then command them to. I like this idea! Or, presumably, let you threaten while alive, or other methods too...
But why not let the player have the possibility of near godlike magicks if they actually want to put the effort for it.I can think of things like twisting bones, creating the ilusion of an allied dragon to crush the morale of enemy, causing inner bleeding, using telekinesis to stick everything sharp to your enemy, tripling your size, summoning demonic creatures and stuff like that. It should be very difficult though. Casting a demonic spell should require some demonic language skill first.
I think mixtures in general would be nice, but at the same time I'm worried about how it would add up. If we're going to be using potions how are we going to obtain the reagents in reasonable amounts? Making enough healing potions to equip even a decent sized army may require stripping the land bare; not to mention crushing monotony if we're doing it by hand.
... which leads to the question of item enchantment and creation. Any words on this? Will we be able to make battle standards that offer regeneration and flaming weapons to nearby troops? Will kamikaze (explode-on-death) items be makable? Will we be able to combine that with a slave collar to send our enslaved foes screaming toward their former allies as living artillery (possibly catapult delivered)? Slap a band of regeneration on a captured dragon and repeatedly skin it for armor material? Teleporting arrows? Teleporting kamikaze slave goblins?
The list could go on, and on, and on, but being that it's an army-leading game, the existence (or lack thereof) of force multipliers would be particularly interesting. I want that battle standard. I want everfilling pots of troll blood to dip my terribly injured warriors in. I want dragon heads on sticks, breathing unending gouts of flame on my foes. I want enemy-targeting kill-switch enchantments on my commanders, to spew arcs of lightning on their murderers, and then consume the commander's corpse and resurrect it as a lightning elemental to further wreck havoc upon my opponents. Stuff like that :P
+1 keen is fine for solo buggers and small parties, but epic armies need epic kit!
Well, if your wizards can split the earth and swallow entire armies, why bother with an army at all. Just recruit a bunch of wizards!Because Wizards usually aren't very durable.
Speaking of arcane methods...
Whats your take on magic?
Player wielded magic always seem to be rather underpowered due to game balancing. But why not let the player have the possibility of near godlike magicks if they actually want to put the effort for it.
So if you learn resurrection you can just kill and ressurect people to get what you want? It should be depending on your skill. From a mindless zombie to a full functioning, able-to-talk undead.
Interrigation and torture could be an option too. You could attack them with a whip or something and they wouldn't fight back because of some kind of a physical restaint. A risk of killing the prisoner is involved if you go for vital organs.But why not let the player have the possibility of near godlike magicks if they actually want to put the effort for it.I can think of things like twisting bones, creating the ilusion of an allied dragon to crush the morale of enemy, causing inner bleeding, using telekinesis to stick everything sharp to your enemy, tripling your size, summoning demonic creatures and stuff like that. It should be very difficult though. Casting a demonic spell should require some demonic language skill first.
How much will we be able to cast per day? Will it depend on a mana system where it regenerates itself or will you have to rest like in Dungeons & Dragons?
Will there be magical potions? I think magical potions and being able to craft them would add some spice to the game but I think healing potions wouldn't work well in this game. Maybe if they are difficult to craft and very rare to come by...
By the way, what about a language for dragons?
Fus Ro Dah!
I think mixtures in general would be nice, but at the same time I'm worried about how it would add up. If we're going to be using potions how are we going to obtain the reagents in reasonable amounts? Making enough healing potions to equip even a decent sized army may require stripping the land bare; not to mention crushing monotony if we're doing it by hand.
Also, how would resources as a whole work out? Are we going with a huge list of individual resources like in DF or a generalized group of ingredients like in Age of Empires and similar games?
Oh, while we're on the topic of potions and mixtures, I want to suggest those that can be used for attack; Such as Greek Fire, Poison Gas, Acid Rain, for the simpler ones at least.
Healing wands, my friends, or something rechargeable. Amulet that gives an aura of health regen, etc. If you're spreading healing apparatus among your troops, probably better to go for dedicated healers among the soldiers, equipped with methods to heal many over a period of time instead of just one, once. Healing potions for everyone would be horribly inefficient when you could train 1/10 or 1/20th of your army as dedicated medics and give them the tools to do their job well.
... which leads to the question of item enchantment and creation. Any words on this? Will we be able to make battle standards that offer regeneration and flaming weapons to nearby troops? Will kamikaze (explode-on-death) items be makable? Will we be able to combine that with a slave collar to send our enslaved foes screaming toward their former allies as living artillery (possibly catapult delivered)? Slap a band of regeneration on a captured dragon and repeatedly skin it for armor material? Teleporting arrows? Teleporting kamikaze slave goblins?
The list could go on, and on, and on, but being that it's an army-leading game, the existence (or lack thereof) of force multipliers would be particularly interesting. I want that battle standard. I want everfilling pots of troll blood to dip my terribly injured warriors in. I want dragon heads on sticks, breathing unending gouts of flame on my foes. I want enemy-targeting kill-switch enchantments on my commanders, to spew arcs of lightning on their murderers, and then consume the commander's corpse and resurrect it as a lightning elemental to further wreck havoc upon my opponents. Stuff like that :P
+1 keen is fine for solo buggers and small parties, but epic armies need epic kit!
On the subject of magic and balance, why does everything have to be in perfect balance? If magic is stronger then normal, then that should be okay.
In my opinion, single player games, especially sandbox, should not have to be perfectly balanced, as long as the player can have fun.
And as for using magic, having the player grow fatigued would be a good way to balance spellcasting out. Want to raise a volcano in the middle of the battlefield? Sure, but don't expect to be able to stand on your feet after that, let alone fighting or casting another spell. This is the system Dominions 3 used and I really loved it :)
Perhaps even ripping the earth in two, swallowing all soldiers unfortunate enough to be standing in the center! Massive post-battle resurrection in order to continue your neverending conquests. Those are the kind of spells which would make magic really interesting imo.
Of course, these kind of spells should be really hard to learn and control. Perhaps ancient tombs have to be raided for certain spells, or from a book stolen from a historical figure.
This also brings up a question, how detailed will town development be? Lets say you could protect a town or a couple of towns for 2000 years and compare them to a town that's seen combat every few months, would you see a difference? The wartown for example having great walls and cheap fortifications everywhere while the towns that have developed in a peaceful environment are filled with marketplaces and stuff?
I was picturing an insanely powerful mage raising mountains and lakes around his country to protect it from hostilities :)
Magic in a similar way to how Tolkien implemented it in his work could be a very good idea.
- magic users are (very) rare, and not easily replaced when destroyed, avoiding then magic usage to become too common and just having the battles getting down to wizard-only armies.
- magic users are powerfull and even have battle abilities beyond regular folks thanks to their magic nature.
- magic feats can be very impressive but can then take lot of preparation and time leading into the next point.
- magic can't do much in the heat and urgency of a battle with armies of canon fodders clashing all around.
If you are directly casting, you'll grow fatigued; rituals, however, might just depend on time, resources, and other factors. As I said above in this long reply, magic will be very strong, but very rare. I do like the volcano-raising idea! Possibly none will be of quite THAT power... but, then, maybe they will. We'll just have to see! Chances are, big battles are going to be especially big, so magic is going to have to scale.I have a rather... complex magic system thought out but i think it will not be that suitable to your game because it would shift the focus of what you're trying to do.
Well, if your wizards can split the earth and swallow entire armies, why bother with an army at all. Just recruit a bunch of wizards!A mage need something between himself and the sharp pointy objects that others want to put in his body.
Well, if your wizards can split the earth and swallow entire armies, why bother with an army at all. Just recruit a bunch of wizards!A mage need something between himself and the sharp pointy objects that others want to put in his body.
Even if magic takes preperation, Magic Missile is always a good emergency backup thing to have on hand.
I say we go with Master of Magic's casting system. Mana lets you cast spells, and your channeling ability shows how much you can use at once.
So if you cast a spell that costs 5 mana with your channeling at 20, you can do so immediately and reduce your available channeling to 15. If you try to cast one that costs 40 mana, you'll need time to cast said spell, depending on how quickly you can "recharge".
I also suggest the use of "focus" items, which increase your channeling and mana so long as it's available for use; said item could even have it's own Mana/Channel/Recharge stats. These could range from simple wands/staves to gigantic magical orbs that are towed along behind your army with your legions of undead slaves and such.
Also, the use of Metamagic would be nice too. You could expend extra mana/channel to increase the effects of your spell or change it in some way, such as targeting specific units/groups, prolonging its duration, changing it's damage type, etc.
I have a rather... complex magic system thought out but i think it will not be that suitable to your game because it would shift the focus of what you're trying to do.
Simply summarized. Channeling ability which determines the speed the mage can draw from a power pool, innate or external to fuel spells
Mindcontrolled meatshields, anyway. Or maybe just walking shields of actual meat, crafted from the flesh and bone of former foes... and maybe a few annoying allies. Metal would probably be more effective, in general (golems!), but organics would let you do all sorts of neat tricks. Acid blood, tentacles, so on, so forth. Probably a moral penalty involved with fighting abominations of flesh and bone, too, which would be a bonus!
... but you could put cannons on top of golems. So artillery or squick. Tough choice, hrm. Well. There's always magical cyborg equivalents. Why choose, when you can have both?
So will all potions be good? Will you immediately know what they are, or will it be like Nethack? Also, this game needs spontaneous combustion potions. It sets the skin of whoever's blood it's on on fire for a moment. Will give them some nasty burns, and would catch flammable clothing on fire. Tip your arrows with it, or throw it at and stab someone for a surprise assassination!
So bottles of Gorgons Blood?
Methinks we need to use them as some form of artillery.
What effect would diluting potions like that have?So bottles of Gorgons Blood?
Methinks we need to use them as some form of artillery.
Oh yes. They'll be rare, but they will definitely be usable in catapults.
What effect would diluting potions like that have?
If you decide magic can be drawn from a source would some areas make this easier, or harder?In my opinion, that would depend on what you are trying to do.
Like a place devoid of all life such as an ancient desert battleground, the opposite being a hippy forest grove like thing.
what about screamin´ magical skulls for the catapults for extra mind-fuck?
What effect would diluting potions like that have?
Constipation
If you decide magic can be drawn from a source would some areas make this easier, or harder?
Like a place devoid of all life such as an ancient desert battleground, the opposite being a hippy forest grove like thing.
In my opinion, that would depend on what you are trying to do.
Say that a necromantic type of magic siphons/leeches/drains power from living things i'd say you'd have a larger power pool in the forest while on the battlefield you would have the materials to make undeads or force spirits to attack your opponent.
Not sure yet, though areas of both types are penned to exist. There will definitely be areas where performing certain magics are easier, though the details are still being worked out :). We'll have to see. Though a battlefield full of corpses is going to be good place for a Necromancer anyway...
BURN IT! BURN IT WITH FIRE!
Not sure yet, though areas of both types are penned to exist. There will definitely be areas where performing certain magics are easier, though the details are still being worked out :). We'll have to see. Though a battlefield full of corpses is going to be good place for a Necromancer anyway...I think we should also adapt MoM's system of "Nodes" for this need.
In regards to the Cyclops, will they have terrible depth perception?
If we are going to have a Cyclops then we also have to have Balor of the Evil Eye.
Heh, this bit reminded me of the Dragaera novel series. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." was a Jhereg House adage.
A mage need something between himself and the sharp pointy objects that others want to put in his body.
Heh, this bit reminded me of the Dragaera novel series. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." was a Jhereg House adage.
A mage need something between himself and the sharp pointy objects that others want to put in his body.
Please write more things about space.This also raises the question of prisoners, slaves and ransoms.
You said that these cyclopes are unlikely to give up when aroused. I may have missed pages of discussion addressing this but are you working surrendering into the game? Either humanoids surrendering to belligerent armies or surrendering to the player? would your character be able to surrender?
Or will you be forced to brutally murder in cold blood every enemy who feigns surrender like Skyrim?
Text
Most of this is what i would consider either spell/casting failures or things suitable to a world where magic isn't that powerful.
Mana can in many cases be considered mental fatigue but whatever system used, It just comes down to balance.
But what kind of balance? Rock, paper & scissor type? Or maybe the ever present "magic is just another type of archery"?
I would like it if the balance lies in the effort needed rather than a mechanical wall.
I guess a new character has some standard start level so that you're not forced to start as a wide-eyed farmboy/girl every new game.
But at this level, a melee character might head straight out into the world and bash **** and make a living, where as a mage would have to start with some caution and try to increase his power that compared to the warrior would take more player effort.
I would hate to see a situation in which the character with vastly more potential (mage) is "balanced" simply by making that character type more difficult to play as. This system would just set up a "early game favors warriors, late game favors mages" situation.It's a single player game, so no need to balance it so that every type is equally strong.
Will your army composition effect itself? If you've got a bunch of magi, will the bog-standard soldiers start picking up cantrips and minorly enchanted kit?
Please write more things about space.
You said that these cyclopes are unlikely to give up when aroused. I may have missed pages of discussion addressing this but are you working surrendering into the game? Either humanoids surrendering to belligerent armies or surrendering to the player? would your character be able to surrender?
Or will you be forced to brutally murder in cold blood every enemy who feigns surrender like Skyrim?
This also raises the question of prisoners, slaves and ransoms.
Going back to the magic thing for a second. I would really like it if the concept of mana went away. It's a useful abstraction like Hit points, but if URR is getting rid of hit points (like DF does), then why stick keep mana around? The only vaguely historical analog to what we call mana is the concept of "vital essence" which shows up in alchemy and is more or less controlled by how often you have sex. Not something that should really drive the magic system in a strategy roguelike.
Other ways of moderating spellcasting could be used such as fatigue, insanity, the threat of attracting the notice of some beast from another dimension, bodily harm, aging or drastically increased nutritional requirements. Fatigue is probably the easiest to code, since all that happens is that after a spell the mage needs to go have a good lie down. The problem is this is very boring for the player when they utilize magic. Given the social networks needed to control a mercenary band, have mages go insane could have some interesting complications. Especially if they start being delusional or paranoid. Also fun if you stop being able to trust your assessments of NPCs. Extraplanar entities (such as demons) seem to be alreadt incuded in the cosmos, and the possibility of an annoyed demon showing up in the the middle of the command squad during a battle is probably scary enough that you would need to be careful. Bodily harm could either be deliberate (i.e. you need to injure yourself or a proxy to cast) or it could be the result of mishandling magic. The possibility of feedback could manifest as burns, kinetic force, blinding light or in extreme cases explosions. Premature ageing would put a hard cap on how much magic a caster could ever use, although not so much how much magic could be used at any time.
Most of this is what i would consider either spell/casting failures or things suitable to a world where magic isn't that powerful.
Mana can in many cases be considered mental fatigue but whatever system used, It just comes down to balance.
But what kind of balance? Rock, paper & scissor type? Or maybe the ever present "magic is just another type of archery"?
I would like it if the balance lies in the effort needed rather than a mechanical wall.
I guess a new character has some standard start level so that you're not forced to start as a wide-eyed farmboy/girl every new game.
But at this level, a melee character might head straight out into the world and bash shit and make a living, where as a mage would have to start with some caution and try to increase his power that compared to the warrior would take more player effort.
I would hate to see a situation in which the character with vastly more potential (mage) is "balanced" simply by making that character type more difficult to play as. This system would just set up a "early game favors warriors, late game favors mages" situation.
But this won't be about one on one combat, so an all powerful mage would struggle in other ways.
Distrust, fear, rivalry, betrayal - all facets of any general's relationship with the world and his army, and perfectly valid tools to provide different balancing options for an arcane wizard versus an honorable warrior.
Taking ideas from Dominions 3...
If you're a mage general who only commands mindless magical creatures, then there would be no distrust! That could be another balancing tool actually. Have a fighter oriented commander better able to command human soldiers, and not able to command many magical creatures (or any?).
Hey, Ultima, can I ask what font you're using? I can't seem to find one that's all smoothed and antialiased and also includes extended ascii chars.
It's a single player game, so no need to balance it so that every type is equally strong.
No matter how skilled you are with the sword, a large wave of fire will still burn you to a crisp. What to do about it? Sneak up on the mage or recruit people by playing on their fears about that spell tossing lunatic.
I just see it as a different playstyle and a different set of challenges.
You don't bring a ninja to a field battle, pretty much?
Edit: Though that rambling did lead me to a question: Will your army composition effect itself? If you've got a bunch of magi, will the bog-standard soldiers start picking up cantrips and minorly enchanted kit? If magi and normal soldiers don't get along, what about if you've got some kind of inbetween, say the above mentioned spellswords (fighter/mage types)? Will a sizable number of clerics/paladin types start converting the rest of your army? More maliciously, will an army with a heavy dose of necro/biomancers have the rank and file start occasionally getting an odd mutation and a morale penalty (/intelligence loss and increase in loyalty, for a smaller penalty to a larger number of fellow soldiers :P)?
I like this idea... that your soldiers will teach each other skills/help each other out. Maybe it should depend on how much your various soldiers like each other. But if I had an army of 50 swordsmen and 4 potion makers , I might expect that even the potionmakers would learn a bit of how to handle a sword.
Maybe they gradually reach an 'average'. So you might have two great fighters, two decent fighters, and two poor fighters. You leave them for a few months, they're all decent fighters.
This seems quite.. ambitious... for a one man team. I really look forward to playing this, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to finish this in 10 years.
This seems quite.. ambitious... for a one man team. I really look forward to playing this, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to finish this in 10 years.
Undoubtedly! I'm not sure how to define the term 'finished'; a few months should see the first alpha, then it's all adding from there. I'll consider it as having reached beta once there are civilizations and NPCs to interact with, I think...
Maybe they gradually reach an 'average'. So you might have two great fighters, two decent fighters, and two poor fighters. You leave them for a few months, they're all decent fighters.
Interesting suggestion. Some get worse if they stick around with those they can't train usefully with. Hmm. I'll have to think about that one :)
Most roguelikes are never finished anyway. Even if the dev stops working some other guy continues developing the game. That depends on the programming language and the way how game was made of course.
Warriors can get rusty if they don't fight of course but it should be easier to learn the same skills again. You don't forget how to swim if you don't even swim for years. Murdering people around with a greatsword is just like swimming!
Will this game be cross-platform?
(If I understood correctly, it's written in python using libtcod, so there is a chance to have a linux version of it)
How will be the factions handled? Would it be possible for you to make items/creatures/factions moddable and allow people to make their own factions with modded equipment, stats, rules, description etc? It would provide great customization to anyone who wants to play specific scenarios or to make "whos race wins" bets... Et cetera, it would make the game much more interesting to play with ;).
Also if you can, please add descriptions to anything possible (which you can inspect). You can even make them simple/nonexistent for now, and let the community fill it, it would add a lot of flavor to the world. I would jump on such project gladly!
And of corse: it looks great!
Back with some more MAGIC questions :D
First of all: Will a highly trained mage be able to draw energy out of living creatures and use it for spells? And could he draw energy from heat, movement (as in falling rocks 'n stuff), electricity, wind?
Could he actually end up killing himself by using up all his energy? (like, his heart stops because he is over fatigued)
Would there be drawbacks by using magic (mental problems, sickness, pain)
How powerful would mages be at their highest? Would they be awesomely strong, godlike, one man army's that could throw men and monsters around like leaves in a hurricane and level entire cities without breaking a sweat? Or would they be no stronger than any other man, but with an army of zombies and elementals?
Would magic mostly be focused at singular (fireballs, and magic missiles) or AOE (tornado summoning, oversized air blasts, meteor showers, and mass necromancy) magics? Or would it be a mix?
Could you store mana in objects for later use? Would it drain over time?
Would magic be something rare or common? And how powerful would an 'average' mage be?
And finally... Could you enslave a village, leech energy out of the villagers and then use their drained corpses to make an army of undead and take over the world? :D :D :D
I bet Deon will make a great mod for this game :)
Making the game moddable as much as possible would be great. I mean, look at Cataclysm. Modders make mods and Whales (developer) merges them into the game. It's like a big community all working together for one game.
I got some questions about MAGIC too :D
Is there going to be a chance to fail casting a spell and also a chance to fail horribly while casting a spell? When you try to use a ranged spell you shouldn't be able to hit exactly where you want with a poor marksmanship. You could kill your allies if you aren't careful. Another example is, while raising a corpse that corpse could be hostile towards you or something. Trying to heal your allies could result in opening more wounds on them maybe. This could balance things and force the player to learn spellcasting from a teacher if the player knows nothing about it. Nobody can learn a subject without a book or a teacher if they know absolutely nothing.
I rembember you mentioned rituals; time-consuming powerful spells that can effect the battlefield considerably. Will there be godly rituals where you ask help from your god(s)? Like, when we are fightining against an evil warlock who worships the god of destruction and death. You could ask for a protection against unholy spells from the god of... creation and life maybe?
Will there be morale? If I don't pay/entertain my armies enough will they desert or turn on me?Morale is a must because your newly recruited peasant horde ain't going to stand and fight against that fearsome undead dragon.
Yeah, morale's been stated to be an intended feature several times already :P
Comes up every few pages, heh.
Will there be morale? If I don't pay/entertain my armies enough will they desert or turn on me?
I could see some fun/desperation in trying to keep a large powerful army as inexpensive as possible. :P
Morale is a must because your newly recruited peasant horde ain't going to stand and fight against that fearsome undead dragon.
Now if they were religious fanatics it would be another matter.
Yeah, morale's been stated to be an intended feature several times already :P
Comes up every few pages, heh.
Ah, thanks. I really should read the whole thread sometime. :)
If they're starving, you could march them to hunt down some huge creatures that could provide meat for all.This is something for the small bands of raiders and such but would be rather tedious when the player gets too many followers.
If they're starving, you could march them to hunt down some huge creatures that could provide meat for all.This is something for the small bands of raiders and such but would be rather tedious when the player gets too many followers.
Unless you mean something like "Lets hunt a dragon, Dragon steaks for everyone!" provisioning your army should be depending on some foraging score, either from an appointed underling or your own score.
That score could be depending on a lot of factors such as the forager being familiar/unfamiliar with the terrain(plains vs jungle) , over foraging like what would happen near a large city(buy provisions instead)
Oh, yes, in larger armies you will be able to get supply trains and things going to keep your forces supplied, and some people in your army will be specifically tasked with hunting etc each time your army makes camp. Again, though, even a large army will be challenged by some of the huge creatures, so if you encounter one, it won't be trivially easy, but it WILL provide a ton of food. Also, yeah, proximity to a city will obviously make everything easier, which'll mean expanding empires and leading your army away will need logistical support, lest everyone starve and turn on you : )Being near a city wont necessarily make provisioning easier, especially if its a hostile one that torched all the farms, as you wont be able to hunt due to no game.
Oh, yes, in larger armies you will be able to get supply trains and things going to keep your forces supplied, and some people in your army will be specifically tasked with hunting etc each time your army makes camp. Again, though, even a large army will be challenged by some of the huge creatures, so if you encounter one, it won't be trivially easy, but it WILL provide a ton of food. Also, yeah, proximity to a city will obviously make everything easier, which'll mean expanding empires and leading your army away will need logistical support, lest everyone starve and turn on you : )Being near a city wont necessarily make provisioning easier, especially if its a hostile one that torched all the farms, as you wont be able to hunt due to no game.
Supply trains can be intercepted and would require a city providing it and probably an escort, either by owning the city or contracting merchants if you're a mercenary force.
I just thought of something.
You should give settlements traits or some kind of sliders which dictates what you can do or what consequences actions in a city will have.
Like, in a high corruption settlement a bandit can sell their stolen goods without any uncomfortable questions asked.
Or in a theocratic city state you can easily recruit believers for a cause or another.
I just thought of something.
You should give settlements traits or some kind of sliders which dictates what you can do or what consequences actions in a city will have.
Like, in a high corruption settlement a bandit can sell their stolen goods without any uncomfortable questions asked.
Or in a theocratic city state you can easily recruit believers for a cause or another.
I like all these ideas! I'm still thinking about how civilizations are going to be defined, and I'm thinking along very similar lines to this. Pick a random series of traits for each civilization (with, at least, traits that match up) and then go from there. Obviously you won't get Elves who hate the environment, or dwarves who don't care the least for metalwork, but there should still be a lot of variation in the kinds of things you said - religiosity, corruption, militarism, traditionalism, expansionism, foreign relations, population demographics, etc etc :). It would obviously affect what civs form alliances and wage war, too. Then once the game starts, let you find one you agree with to join; or if none, join one close, and try and influence it in the direction you want...
I loved this idea too. Industrial settlements could get a lot of trade agreements from other city and also make it a commercial settlement. Militaristic settlements could be aggressive and attack settlements with a high commercial and industrial score to support their armies. Religious settlements could attack settlements with low religion score and high science score and make it more religious.On this i guess there is a need for abstraction, else all the different kinds of social structures would need a lot of planning, analyzing and coding.
Religious settlements could attack settlements with low religion score and high science score and make it more religious.Depending on URR's take on gods(divine dictating vs clergy politics), unless a theocracy wishes to expand and conquer, they rarely engage in hostile activities unless theres unrest at home. Whats better than a holy war for eternal glory to help those pesky plebs forget about the high taxes?
I loved this idea too. Industrial settlements could get a lot of trade agreements from other city and also make it a commercial settlement. Militaristic settlements could be aggressive and attack settlements with a high commercial and industrial score to support their armies. Religious settlements could attack settlements with low religion score and high science score and make it more religious. Stuff like that. Sounds awesome!
Don't forget forms of government too. Monarchism, democracy, dictatorship, oligarchy, anarchism, etc.
By the way, will we have strategic options when it comes to rivers? Like using archers to attack from one side to the opposite side.
On this i guess there is a need for abstraction, else all the different kinds of social structures would need a lot of planning, analyzing and coding.
Consider this; A commercial settlement depends on other settlements to develop, thus the other settlements need to be generated first as the C.Set would probably be developed on a crossroads between other cities that do trade and have desirable resources.
Basically, unless abstracted, every city would need to examine the available resources, such as minerals, fertile ground, forests, strategical value.
How did it develop? Serfdom, slavery, freemen? Mercantile or free trade?
Depending on URR's take on gods(divine dictating vs clergy politics), unless a theocracy wishes to expand and conquer, they rarely engage in hostile activities unless theres unrest at home. Whats better than a holy war for eternal glory to help those pesky plebs forget about the high taxes?
And i assume that this is a standard fantasy world, meaning that a science attribute is rather mislabeling. Technological advance would be to have sewers, aquaducts, irrigation and such things, rather than the Christianity vs free thinkers that you seem to envision.
URR, If you have time and interest, i suggest reading Malazan books of the fallen series by Stephen erikson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Erikson
Its a good source for ideas.
Hmmm. I see what you mean. I'm not sure how resources are going to work yet; I don't want anything AoE-esque, where you need to (or need to be in a city that does it for you) gather wood, iron, etc - but at the same time, there obviously needs to be a limit on the amount of tempered steel you can make weapons from. I suspect I will end up deploying a resources system, but one that is primarily under-the-hood, and the player only has interaction at the 'output' end - setting mining priorities, etc. But I think cities will appear in locations that are good in terms of rivers, food, etc, and then they will *develop* according to the military etc resources nearby.Unless is a oppressive slave city, workforce allocation is not that flexible. Generally you would have an average with its ups and downs due to poor harvests, accidents or similar events.
Unless is a oppressive slave city, workforce allocation is not that flexible. Generally you would have an average with its ups and downs due to poor harvests, accidents or similar events.
When generating the world, you should allocate resources to regions with variables such as total amount, recovery rate(water & forest, max possible yield per time unit. A quality score between 1-5 (for unusable, poor, average, good, perfect) to determine trade value and desirability. This would reflect, for example, a marsh wood with fragile wood thats not worth using.
You could also add supernatural traits to the resource such as sentient forests, nature spirits infested waterfalls or leviathan occupied lakes.
Right now i can only think of the more obvious resources; Forest, minerals, water(lake, river, ground water, springs and oases) and arable land.
When all city sites has been designated, it should check the adjacent ones and examine their resources to determine imports and exports. Say that only one city in the region has abundant arable land, then this city would probably expand its agricultural industry to sell food to the nearby cities as long as those has something that the farmtown wants/needs and this would in turn increase the population growth potential of the trade partner.
TL;DL Every city should end up with the following resource variables; extraction amount and potential, city consumption(local and trade agreements) and excess(what you can buy as an outsider)
marble and stone for construction; gold for wealth generationMarble is also wealth rather than common construction material and either go for precious resources as a common term or include silver, gold and gems(sub-categorized or not).
As cities only appear in areas with sufficient resources, any city is at least going to have stone and wood and construction, and something to make weapons from, as a bare minimum.Humans(your fantasy civilizations is what you make of em) is adaptive, as long as there's water and food they can be almost anywhere, so its just building materials that is a qualifier for settlements.
caravans are actually a pretty early NPC priority, both for the player to trade with, and for cities to trade between themselves, allowing an easy point of attack when trying to starve an empire out, or similar!Caravans is more important to the small time bandit or warlord than the would-be conqueror. Starving a city while not actively sieging it would be to lay waste to farmlands.
Marble is also wealth rather than common construction material and either go for precious resources as a common term or include silver, gold and gems(sub-categorized or not).
Humans(your fantasy civilizations is what you make of em) is adaptive, as long as there's water and food they can be almost anywhere, so its just building materials that is a qualifier for settlements.
Bare minimums;
One construction material; Wood, Clay or Stone.
Water.
Source of food; Herds, Agriculture or fishing.
Also consider two rounds of settlement generation, Old settlements that had all requirements from the start, and new settlements that traded for the necessities but have an abundance of other resources or a special resource.
Weapon materials is anything from bone and stone to copper and steel. Simply consider that any currently existing city would either had materials from the start or would have traded for it to stay competitive. If they had not, they would have been conquered.
Caravans is more important to the small time bandit or warlord than the would-be conqueror. Starving a city while not actively sieging it would be to lay waste to farmlands.
Which makes me think of another point, that is crop cycles and harvest time when the farmers bring their yield to the city.
Is building small structures and possibly houses on one's lonesome going to be a possibility? It would be interesting to survive alone in the wild, with the wooden shack you constructed yourself.
Oh, and if you construct a few small houses, will it be possible for them to be populated by traveling caravans?
Crop cycles etc - I am going to put in seasons, so I suppose that will effect crops etc! Hmm. I'll have to think a bit more about exactly how to program that one...I guess you'll abstract the farming so that no specific type of crop is selected which means that the harvest time should be averaged over a time.
thanks for all the great ideas, anyway :).
Looks great! Very excited to get to (eventually) play this, hehe.
Crop cycles etc - I am going to put in seasons, so I suppose that will effect crops etc! Hmm. I'll have to think a bit more about exactly how to program that one...I guess you'll abstract the farming so that no specific type of crop is selected which means that the harvest time should be averaged over a time.
Say that crops is harvested and delivered during all of autumn. Although i've forgotten how to to the math for it and the name in English, Take the total crops yield, spread it out over all of autumn starting and finishing with a low yield while it peaks during mid-autumn.
Well, This is just for a temperate climate area, which means that if you're going to implement tropical or warm climates you're going to have to increase the harvest time and yield due to multiple harvests.thanks for all the great ideas, anyway :).
I'm full of ideas and inspiration, I just dont have an outlet. :(
Oh God my favourite things all in one game...
yipeee
Looks great! Very excited to get to (eventually) play this, hehe.
Haha, thanks - I'm still pretty confident about the schedule I posted on the blog last week :)Crop cycles etc - I am going to put in seasons, so I suppose that will effect crops etc! Hmm. I'll have to think a bit more about exactly how to program that one...I guess you'll abstract the farming so that no specific type of crop is selected which means that the harvest time should be averaged over a time.
Say that crops is harvested and delivered during all of autumn. Although i've forgotten how to to the math for it and the name in English, Take the total crops yield, spread it out over all of autumn starting and finishing with a low yield while it peaks during mid-autumn.
Well, This is just for a temperate climate area, which means that if you're going to implement tropical or warm climates you're going to have to increase the harvest time and yield due to multiple harvests.thanks for all the great ideas, anyway :).
I'm full of ideas and inspiration, I just dont have an outlet. :(
Yes, I guess something like that. I'd like to get cities storing grain, eventually, so that you can send forces to destroy it, etc, as another method of weakening a city pre-siege. Well, do keep them coming, I'm eager to incorporate peoples' ideas into URR wherever possible!
Assuming all races have more or less baseline human nutritional needs, I think abstracting all food into three catagories is probably your best bet. Basic Food is wheat or the eqivalent (rice, maize, beans, cassava, potatoes etc.). It will keep people fed, although in the long term a diet of just Basic Food is going to lead to malnutrion. Basic food stores well and lasts for quite a while on its own if stored correctly. Good food is more or less everyting else. Meats, cheese, fish, fruits and vegetables are Good Food. Good Food will keep your troops happy, prevent malnutrion and allow people to function optimaly. The problem with Good Food is that on it's own it doesn't keep nearly as long as Basic Food. Unless it's processed or stored properly Good Food will spoil within a month at most. The third type of food is Booze (I supose this should also include other types of recreational drugs). Booze is required to keep any population happy. Soldiers tend to require a lot of booze.
Basic food gets rpoduced in several big chunks each year, depending on the climate (so you could have 0, 1,2,3 or 4 harvest areas) and requires that land be devoted to agriculture. Hunter-gatherer and nomadic grous would have very little basic food. Good food would be produced in much smaller quantities continously, possibly with periodic spikes representing a mass slaughter or a fish run or a fruit harvest. Booze would be produced.
In order to preserve good food you need salt. In order to manufacture booze you need food. Historically salt was a major trade good because it allowed you to preserve food, and it could also be used to make food taste better. Aside from armies, almost all food was consumed near where it was produced. Shipping grains or flour more than 100 miles was very rare. Animals could be driven to slaughter, but once slaughtered the meat didn't travel very far. Salt, of the other hand moved thousands of miles in giant caravans and had towns and road networks explicitly contructed for the production and transport of salt.
A band of twenty people should be able to survive off the land four seasons year round. A band of 100 people should be able to keep themselves alive three seaons out of the year, assuming they keep moving. Anything more than 100 and less than 10,000 should be able to live off the land, provided they are willing to strip it bare and send out foraging parties. Anything over 10,000 troops will require a supply chain or order to keep from starving. Keep in mind that surviving isn't the same as thriving. A well supplied force will always preforms better than equivalent force that's been living off the land, so while twenty people could make it through the woods with some skill with a bow and knowledge of local plants, twenty troops with a commisary wagon will move faster and fight harder.
Good point. These are very good ideas.
Raising up an army of 10,000 strong would take quite a bit of time, money, and as you just mentioned, food.
This would make it more worthwhile (to you AND the environment) to raise up an elite squad of skilled fighters.
It would be interesting to see, once the game is capable of handling this sort of thing, a battle between a giant, unskilled army, and a smaller, well-trained force.
I'm getting really excited for this game's release.
rulers choose what foods to harvest, etc, and you only become involved if a) you are destroying the source of enemy food, or b) you come to command army/rule civ, but even in b), you will only make 'high level' decisions about food sources and the like, not specific decisions about places, workers, etc.
I have just thrown in salt...
Yes, definitely - a la 300 (or similar), small elite forces should be more than able to survive against many times their number of poorly equipped/trained/led foes.Depends, if there's enough people it can become a stampede instead. And in that case it does not matter if the foes in front does not want to die, the mass just can't stop.
In game terms, it would be nice to have the challenge of actually forcing your low-lvl-crap-troops forward hard enough so they overwhelm the elite enemy without breaking.
Well I would adore a game where you could use (poorly equipped to unarmed) prisoners and beasts of war in this manner, even if only to tire the enemy or make them lose moral because they have to kill those of there own kind/race.Excellent in siege warfare, use prisoners from the adjacent land as meatshields.
simply let the player rule by decrees and so only decide upon the percentage of the arable land thats available for farming and if its for basic or good foods.
keep in mind that while basic foods usually only takes a season to harvest, cattle takes time to get a large enough heard and fruit trees takes time to grow.
let salt increase storage time and trade distance of meats.
Depends, if there's enough people it can become a stampede instead. And in that case it does not matter if the foes in front does not want to die, the mass just can't stop.
The roman soldier would be the best to sustain an assault like that, and while pikemen might keep them at bay for longer, as soon as they're past the pikes its bad.
Basically, the situation 10 vs 100 is worse than 1 vs 10.
I would love to see it played a little like Dominions 3...
So a set of high-average-armor/skill & range warriors with a hint of luck (or magic support) will always get the first-strike in on the naked-club-wielding people charging them, but due to a fair amount of luck, a single half-naked-guy could slip though 2-3 spear attacks and start a hope-spot for the rest of them.
In game terms, it would be nice to have the challenge of actually forcing your low-lvl-crap-troops forward hard enough so they overwhelm the elite enemy without breaking.
Well I would adore a game where you could use (poorly equipped to unarmed) prisoners and beasts of war in this manner, even if only to tire the enemy or make them lose moral because they have to kill those of there own kind/race.Excellent in siege warfare, use prisoners from the adjacent land as meatshields.
If you desire a task that can never be finished, add another layer of "fantasy-reality"
As you fight and carry on, you start to get famous... and maybe, if your goals work with whatever goals the local population has (or at least they THINK that you share the goals), they might help you out... a handful of rangers might join you in your battle versus the beasts of old, a mob of peasants joins you in the siege on the capital, a wandering monk seeks to support your claim to godhood and soon many join his cult...)
And in the same vein your constant slaughter of innocents causes enemies to fight more firmly or dark forces to take notice of you.
Then add another complexity layer, where information travels semi-realistically and you can potentially kill all natural witnesses, but have to work extra to take out supernatural observers...
Then add another layer of learning beings (human or smarter) learning from all your fights, learning what you use and adjusting to a degree "What do you mean, the humans started to line there weapons with silver to fight the werwolf spys i have spread among there villages to cause chaos at the 3rd moon of the year? Very well... good thing I invested heavily into buying up all the silver I could find beforehand... now we can buy those same peasants to fight for US - and plenty of them will become quite useful at night." -#Xenos gambit time.jpg
"oh sorry sir did i push you on the ground and your fancy armour keeps you down/maybe underwater? dont mind me, this hammer will end those problems..."Magic, baby.
"oh sorry sir did i push you on the ground and your fancy armour keeps you down/maybe underwater? dont mind me, this hammer will end those problems..."Magic, baby.
"Oh, no, no problem, good fellow!" *does a kipup thirty feet into the air, spewing returning throwing weapons around, killing ten to fifteen of your friends, then decapitates you and six other people with a length expanding broadsword.* Fantasy land sez, "Enchanted mythril gives me wings! and still blocks cannonfire from three feet off."
So, my random thought of the day re: URR: Specialists and god-blooded. Will there be characters within a race with unique talents or strange mutations? Any comments on how that'd play out?
I could see a kind of multi-layer mutation system resembling other RLs, except with multiple sets (Kinda' like how Crawl does demonspawn/normal mutations/Jiyva mutations) depending on the source. With a pantheon of gods, you could have each of them having a unique set of mutations (possibly procedurally generated, if the gods themselves are) that divine descendants can manifest, ferex, while the magic node-type stuff mentioned earlier could have their own mutation set based on the node; stuff born or living for too long in the area would start to manifest strange abilities. Then you'd have possibly a few sets of just weird stuff that comes out occasionally.
What about crossbreeding? How much of or is crossbreeding going to be a thing, and could we have strange descendant type-things happening starting from people that, say, contract with elemental spirits or what-have-you? Are we going to be able to crossbreed a hydra with something with wings, and then mix the offspring with a fire elemental to have a giant, flying, regenerating, flaming megabeast of many heads and doom? What about lower key stuff, like introducing trolls or whathaveyou into your preferred recruiting base, causing a rise of half-trolls (that, incidentally, have regeneration and higher than normal strength and toughness, perfect for cannonfodder that's harder to kill than humans but smarter than trolls.)?
... the other question coming from that being timeframe. Is your character going to be subjected to the ravages of time? If so, will there be ways around that (magic!) or means of passing control to another character (de dynasty!), and will different playable races have different lifespans?
... tangential to that, how expansive a choice of race for the main character? If we want to play a hydra, will it go forth into the world and pick out a hydra that just happens to have a strong enough intelligence boosting mutation to justify leading an army?
Now THAT is a good question, re: timelines, aging, etc. The honest answer is: I haven't decided yet. I think you will age, but I'm not sure how this will play out. I think the dynasty idea is a tremendous one; when you eventually die, you control your son/daughter, and then there might be a power struggle for the army, etc. It would tie into the history books idea very nicely, that the world is long, and lived-in, and you are having a noticeable effect upon it. Again, that's one for the future, but you will have an age when you start your character, and you will age. As will everybody else, of course - natural deaths can happen! :)
Currently, human/dwarf/elf.You might want to add orcs and maybe halflings to that list in the future :D
You might want to add orcs and maybe halflings to that list in the future :DGolden Horde orcs and imperialistic slaver halflings. That's what T4 did :P
I like that. You also should be able to train your son/daughter so you can start off with some skills when you control your son/daughter.
What happens if you got more than one child? I guess you should be able to choose whoever you want. Also, a cooperation/rivalry between your brothers and sisters could be fun. Maybe your power-hungry brother decides to get a huge army together and you have to fight him or your enemy kidnaps your sister or something. You can actually create a movie with that kind of dynasty mechanism.QuoteCurrently, human/dwarf/elf.You might want to add orcs and maybe halflings to that list in the future :D
You might want to add orcs and maybe halflings to that list in the future :DGolden Horde orcs and imperialistic slaver halflings. That's what T4 did :P
If you're not going to just procedurally generate all that sort of thing, anyway. Which'd probably be more interesting, as you could actually get those two, and plenty more aside. Race being about biology instead of psychology/social organization, perhaps.
It'd be hilarious to have a playthrough with the elves being the underground master smiths :P
I guess that's about right - choose which you want to control. For that matter, you might be able to designate a successor anyway, even if they aren't the player's descendants. Hmm. I'll think more about this one, but I love the dynasty idea - lots of interesting things for power struggles, civil wars, etc could come out of that...
Maybe by giving bonus to the successor's influence among your generals depending on various factors? Eg: being your offspring would be a bonus (dynasty and all that). Being a competent commander would be a bonus, etc.... Being officially designated would be a large bonus. So normally, if you designate as successor someone who stands out of your various liutenaunts (offspring, competent, whatnot), it stays at that. But if there are several mighty candidates, it might be enough evened out so that the others revolt?
Your first character's background is important too. Like in Mount&Blade, if your father is a thief, farmer, smith or someone else without renown, you are a nobody. If your father is a noble, you have a slightly higher renown.
Also, URR now has a delicious sidebar! This week's devblog entry discusses this, the UI, and the direction I'm moving in in terms of ease of use, the UI, and getting efficiently around the map. What does everyone think of the sidebar, and the UI in general? :)
I like it! I think it deals with the ever-present problem that roguelikes have of not being able to see landmarks far ahead of you rather well.
Looks pretty snazzy!
Also, regarding menus and such, is your character going to have a status screen? Like, something that tells you when you've gotten your arm lopped off or your lower body cut open?
It would be really nice for there to be a quick, easily understandable sidebar that tells you how YOU are doing at the moment (since you're the star of the show and all...).
Re: Sidebar: Does that mean we cap out at a max of 15985 critters on our side of the fight?
Re: Sidebar: Does that mean we cap out at a max of 15985 critters on our side of the fight?
Ha - I... suppose it does. If anyone reaches that number, I will eat my hat.
Ha - I... suppose it does. If anyone reaches that number, I will eat my hat.
Re: Sidebar: Does that mean we cap out at a max of 15985 critters on our side of the fight?
Ha - I... suppose it does. If anyone reaches that number, I will eat my hat.
(http://fortnightlitpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/knapp01.png?w=480)
First of all, do you have one?
And secondly; Where do you think you are? This is Bay12forums where people does unreasonable things on a basis :P
I'd be really interested in seeing what you've got so far. :) I've just finished up with a good portion of the core mechanics of my own worldgen for Cult (though a lot more will necessarily be added as the game engine develops), and I'm curious to see what yours looks like. At any rate, the game is looking awesome so far. Keep up the good work!
dammit, I want it now!
no sleep! you work! you work!
dammit, I want it now!
no sleep! you work! you work!
Haha; it'll now be tomorrow, but I'm no more than 30 minutes from finishing off rivers, and then there's just a bunch of little things to clear up. I need to actually get a good night's sleep for the first time in ages...
Sleep is important. I just slept for 14 hours and I hardly got my ass out of my room. I still feel sleepy. I didn't know I was this sleep deprived. That's what I get for getting up around 7:00 AM every day including weekends.
So, need for sleeping is going to get included in the game? :D
Also any political things going on ? Can you run/own a kingdom and stuff and own property or land or something ?
This looks like a game of epic proportions! Really wanting to get my hands on it allready ! and any ideas when you will be releasing code for us to play with? :D
Also any political things going on ? Can you run/own a kingdom and stuff and own property or land or something ?
Sleep is important. I just slept for 14 hours and I hardly got my ass out of my room. I still feel sleepy. I didn't know I was this sleep deprived. That's what I get for getting up around 7:00 AM every day including weekends.
So, need for sleeping is going to get included in the game? :D
I used to sleep for nearly that long most nights, but these days I force myself onto about 8 hours; it's the only way I can actually get anything DONE! And yes, it will indeed; longer you go without sleep, the poorer your abilities will become. Same goes for other creatures; in the near future (probably before first release) a day/night cycle and nocturnal/diurnal creatures should appear...
I sleep for 4 hours mostly. If I get a chance to sleep until noon I take it happily. :D
I guess, if we and our allies need to sleep, we can ambush an enemy camp at night or be ambushed by enemies at night.
Hey sounds good :) really looking forward to this :) High expectations which you can easily achieve :)
And when I said code to play with I meant a alpha which was playable hehe :P
Middle of the year! That's like... 6 months! Or 24 weeks! Or 180 days! Or 4320 hours! Or 259,200 minutes! Or 15,552,000 seconds!
15,551,999...
15,551,998...
15,551,997...
I can totally wait that many seconds for a working Alpha.
Middle of the year! That's like... 6 months! Or 24 weeks! Or 180 days! Or 4320 hours! Or 259,200 minutes! Or 15,552,000 seconds!
15,551,999...
15,551,998...
15,551,997...
I can totally wait that many seconds for a working Alpha.
I can wait patiently for an epic game like this :D
Tick tick tick, we're waiting....
This game is going to be succesful just like dwarf fortress. Remember when making games you need ideas and when you get ideas use them. Because you will never find the same idea unless you retrace your steps Ultima you sir has the title of armok slave. thats pretty good next rank will be armok minion your getting there.
Just found this thread, checked out some devlogs, and it looks very promising! I watch with interest.
Will there, uh, be an option to simplify non-tactically important symbols? Like, have all the ground be just . instead of . : ) }, etc.Speaking of that, consider leaving the option for a graphical overlay open as ASCII only tends to some people away, and you can just leave it open for modders to deal with =P
Because the screenshots given are borderline painful to me, in the same way the swamps in Caves of Qud and busier parts of DF (without option changes) are. Being able to simplify the visual experience might be nice of those of us with lower tolerance for eye strain :P
E: They're pretty enough, to clarify, just painful. Too busy, at least for my tolerances. Is why option would be nice, yeah.
Will there, uh, be an option to simplify non-tactically important symbols? Like, have all the ground be just . instead of . : ) }, etc.
Because the screenshots given are borderline painful to me, in the same way the swamps in Caves of Qud and busier parts of DF (without option changes) are. Being able to simplify the visual experience might be nice of those of us with lower tolerance for eye strain :P
E: They're pretty enough, to clarify, just painful. Too busy, at least for my tolerances. Is why option would be nice, yeah.
Speaking of that, consider leaving the option for a graphical overlay open as ASCII only tends to some people away, and you can just leave it open for modders to deal with =P
I will - eventually - but that requires more competence in dealing with tilesets than I think I actually have at the moment. I'll get to that one too, though, I promise... once I figure out how...Considering all the other things you've been coding I would have thought that tilesets would have been simpler.
Considering all the other things you've been coding I would have thought that tilesets would have been simpler.
Learning programing only due to the making of this game or do you have classes?
Chiming in to say this look really cool! :D
I got a question about magic. Will we have different "schools" for magic? You know, like the ones in Skyrim.
I hope we will have a forum for this game soon.
Interesting. Except pyromancy, your selection of magical categories tends to take lesser roles in other games. Necromancy is usually there but to me it never seems to be as useful as the other choices available.I got a question about magic. Will we have different "schools" for magic? You know, like the ones in Skyrim.
Currently got four intended - pyromancy, hydromancy, geomancy, and necromancy. They're in the skills list, anyway, though obviously they don't *do* a lot yet...
Nope; prior to six months ago, I hadn't even touched Python. I've just been teaching myself. There are classes on campus but I've found teaching myself is by far the best method, and more than sufficient for everything I've needed so far.Been considering to do something like that myself for a long time but i'm rather unsure if i would be getting into deep waters and make it a wasted effort.
Can we do telekinesis? You know, the art of impaling pointy stuff into your enemies without using your hands :DDoes not fit into any of aforementioned groups, and all things considered, telekinesis would basically just make your mage into either a chaingun with whatever small object you can get or a siege weapon, throwing boulders.
If you have unlimited magic power. You can pop two volcanoes in a row and create an earthquake between them, for that matter. Also only masters of telekinesis should be able to lift heavy things like boulders. Even if you lift can a boulder, if you lift it more than a few inches count yourself lucky.Can we do telekinesis? You know, the art of impaling pointy stuff into your enemies without using your hands :Dtelekinesis would basically just make your mage into either a chaingun with whatever small object you can get or a siege weapon, throwing boulders.
Interesting. Except pyromancy, your selection of magical categories tends to take lesser roles in other games. Necromancy is usually there but to me it never seems to be as useful as the other choices available.
Are these the only ones you want or do you perhaps choose to extend the selection?
As i see it, if strictly limited to what the name implies;
Pyromancy - Manipulation and conjuration of fire. If speaking if physics, molecular friction. Unsubtle, simple and destructive.
Assuming that simple magics would be various forms of throwing fire at your foe I make the conclusion that conjuring fire
is easier the closer to the caster than far away and simultaneous conjurations is a measure of the mages skill. So causing
friction to set fire to the pants of ten enemies in the back of the ranks of a force a hundred meters away would be harder
than bursting a spray of fire from infront of the caster. Although I guess that the amount of fire should correspond to the
amount of mana put into it.
Hydromancy - Control of water... Eh, I guess a high pressurized stream of water cuts well or at least throws 'em back. Seems rather
bulky to manipulate and unless theres a source of water naturally, then the mage would have to use the moisture in the
air and in my opinion that would take time and/or not provide enough water to do some fun stuff, like tsunamis. Though
a skilled caster would be able to drain/drown his foes by drawing water into the lungs. Or even be able to control
enemies by manipulating the water in the bodies.
Geomancy - Weeh, manipulating the crust of the earth. Fissures, trembles, earthquakes, magma geysers, stone golems and what not.
Rather indiscriminating destructive power here, depending on how strongly the mage could manipulate it.
Necromany - How to define this... Control of life energies? of Souls? Is it just the control of dead things or would you be able to siphon
life from living being?Nope; prior to six months ago, I hadn't even touched Python. I've just been teaching myself. There are classes on campus but I've found teaching myself is by far the best method, and more than sufficient for everything I've needed so far.Been considering to do something like that myself for a long time but i'm rather unsure if i would be getting into deep waters and make it a wasted effort.
So you're making this in python then? How good is that language for what you want it for?
If you have unlimited magic power. You can pop two volcanoes in a row and create an earthquake between them, for that matter. Also only masters of telekinesis should be able to lift heavy things like boulders. Even if you lift can a boulder, if you lift it more than a few inches count yourself lucky.Can we do telekinesis? You know, the art of impaling pointy stuff into your enemies without using your hands :Dtelekinesis would basically just make your mage into either a chaingun with whatever small object you can get or a siege weapon, throwing boulders.
And I'm sure we will have more than just 3 schools. That's too limiting. What about illusion spells?
It's been stated previously that those four "schools" are for big-time, ritual-type spells; (comparatively) large scale, large cost, large setup. There is (or was, anyway) a second way of doing magic intended, which was mentioned as being more free-form and combat-centered. I'd imagine various status-inflicting spells (Which most illusion-type things would fit under, in some sense) would fall easily under the latter style.
This has come up a few times in the thread already, heh.
Yep, in Python. Apart from BASIC when I was very young, I've never touched any other programming language, so I don't know if Python is stronger/weaker for this project, but it's serving me perfectly well so far :)
But from the previous comment about the 4 schools of magic, it seems some clever wizard could just come along and suck the moisture out of your body from a distance, killing you.So... Encountering a giant that proceeds bashing you into a pulp with a tree, walking into that dragons lair, catching a stray arrow with your eye or slipping on a banana peel by a cliff is just equally unfair?
I'm hoping you plan to make magic more fair. Powerful, but fair.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the game should be easy. I'm just saying that it should be possible to fight these forces, or at least run away. If you were stupid enough to get close to a big, dumb giant wielding a mace the size of a tree, you deserve to die. If you decided to enter a dragon's lair and you weren't prepared, you deserve to die. If you're walking next to a cliff, you're asking for trouble, and deserve to die. If you took an arrow to theBut from the previous comment about the 4 schools of magic, it seems some clever wizard could just come along and suck the moisture out of your body from a distance, killing you.So... Encountering a giant that proceeds bashing you into a pulp with a tree, walking into that dragons lair, catching a stray arrow with your eye or slipping on a banana peel by a cliff is just equally unfair?
I'm hoping you plan to make magic more fair. Powerful, but fair.
Magic will be rare and presumably there will be magical countermeasures, which you probably wont gain that easy, just as wizards won't get their powers easily.
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
EDIT: Oh my armok how the heck do i install python :o
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
It takes dedication and a willingness to screw up. A lot. The best way to start is to give yourself some really, really simple goals. Like, make a flat field of grass. Then add a dude. Then get the dude to be able to walk around. Stuff like that. You're probably going to have to scrap the first two or three iterations anyway as you learn what you're doing, so there's no reason to try and add in the crazy stuff early on.
Now, not saying you can't design the crazy stuff ahead of time, since that's fun. Just don't try to actually code any of it until you have the basic stuff down and working ok.
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
I swear by this (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Complete_Roguelike_Tutorial,_using_python%2Blibtcod) roguelike tutorial. Python is definitely the language you want to start with if you're learning on your own. Khan Academy has a playlist (http://www.youtube.com/khanacademy#g/c/36E7A2B75028A3D6) on Python and computer science, although I haven't watched it so I can't speak to its quality. Best of luck to you! :D
My overall point is, the game should not be the kind of game where something just comes along every single time you play and casually wipes you off the face of the earth. There should be foes capable of that, but it should have some level of realism. For example, a dragon in flight should not stop and murder you simply because you're there. Unless it's hungry. Then it may stop in order to fill its belly with your tasty human flesh.
See, DF Adventure mode currently lacks this. If you run into a creature that is labeled, "hostile" it will kill you simply because it can. And that's not realistic. Powerful creatures and beings should not stop to pick off the small fries, in my opinion.
A few throwaway thoughts re: Hydromancy: Water manipulation is often seen as part of the traditional arts of fleshcrafting of various sorts in fantasy settings. Mutation, creature husbandry, crossbreeding, etc. There was a particular race of seadwellers in a fantasy setting I worked with a bit that were basically magical bioengineers, ferex, breeding ships and various servant species for personal use and trade. If you're looking for strategic applications for it, crossbreeding, mutations, strange beasts, etc., is a thematically viable direction to go. Biological battering rams, artillery, specially bred domestic creatures (Food/moral bonii), so on, so forth.
It's also not uncommon for it to turn towards blood manipulation if you're getting particularly nasty about things.
If you feel like weaponizing water, Ice is a popular choice- firing sharp ice like shotgun pellets, coating a battlefield in it, freezing armor (which is really quite unpleasant if you're still wearing it,) so on and so forth. Water also rusts, which has obviously detrimental effects on iron weapons and armor. Lacking an Air school, Water also does well for causing storms and other weather effects. And a final thought, Water magic tends to play a role in divination magics, for settings that don't have that as a separate school, or being fulfilled by Air instead.
I know we have these schools for rituals but what about smaller spells? Does it go to "non-epic-stuff" category?
Yep, in Python. Apart from BASIC when I was very young, I've never touched any other programming language, so I don't know if Python is stronger/weaker for this project, but it's serving me perfectly well so far :)
Hey just wanted to say this has grown unbelievably since I first saw it on the python/libtcod forums, wish one of my projects had grown this much this quickly. But the main thing I found that limited my projects is the fact that python is soooooo slow when compared to C++. I was just wondering if you had noticed this and just have ridiculously optimised code, or if you found another way around it?
Awesome game, can't wait for it to be released :).
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
Just got to say something about magic and... well, fairness in the game.
Magic should not be undodgeable. That is, all magic should be able to be avoided, or resisted. But from the previous comment about the 4 schools of magic, it seems some clever wizard could just come along and suck the moisture out of your body from a distance, killing you.
I'm hoping you plan to make magic more fair. Powerful, but fair.
So... Encountering a giant that proceeds bashing you into a pulp with a tree, walking into that dragons lair, catching a stray arrow with your eye or slipping on a banana peel by a cliff is just equally unfair?
Magic will be rare and presumably there will be magical countermeasures, which you probably wont gain that easy, just as wizards won't get their powers easily.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the game should be easy. I'm just saying that it should be possible to fight these forces, or at least run away. If you were stupid enough to get close to a big, dumb giant wielding a mace the size of a tree, you deserve to die. If you decided to enter a dragon's lair and you weren't prepared, you deserve to die. If you're walking next to a cliff, you're asking for trouble, and deserve to die. If you took an arrow to thekneeeye... well, bad luck.
Likewise, if you run into an enemy mage, you should have the option of fleeing, or a chance of surviving if you fought. They should NOT be capable of simply destroying you from a distance with a flick of their wrist.
My overall point is, the game should not be the kind of game where something just comes along every single time you play and casually wipes you off the face of the earth. There should be foes capable of that, but it should have some level of realism. For example, a dragon in flight should not stop and murder you simply because you're there. Unless it's hungry. Then it may stop in order to fill its belly with your tasty human flesh.
See, DF Adventure mode currently lacks this. If you run into a creature that is labeled, "hostile" it will kill you simply because it can. And that's not realistic. Powerful creatures and beings should not stop to pick off the small fries, in my opinion.
I would love to see (relatively) mundane counters to common magical/demonic issues. Things like salt circles, running water, cold iron or religious verse working to stymie some forms of magic. The effect would basically be that magic users had to worry about a different set of constraints than foot soldiers and generals have to. Soldier worry about food, shelter and harsh terrian in addition to the guys out there wanting to stab them in the eye. If magic uses instead have to worry about rivers (with or without fords), temples, mines and magical threshholds instead of (or in addition to) the more mundane constraints, you can have a very powerful magic system in the game which adds to the tactical and strategic realities of the game rather than steam rolling them as is so often the case in fantasy.
Seeing URR working on his game with a passion and ambition like this is encouraging me to start developing roguelikes myself (which I have been thinking about, for like a year) but the majestic world of codes seems a little scary. Is it difficult, teaching yourself and not taking any classes about it?
It takes dedication and a willingness to screw up. A lot. The best way to start is to give yourself some really, really simple goals. Like, make a flat field of grass. Then add a dude. Then get the dude to be able to walk around. Stuff like that. You're probably going to have to scrap the first two or three iterations anyway as you learn what you're doing, so there's no reason to try and add in the crazy stuff early on.
Now, not saying you can't design the crazy stuff ahead of time, since that's fun. Just don't try to actually code any of it until you have the basic stuff down and working ok.
I swear by this (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Complete_Roguelike_Tutorial,_using_python%2Blibtcod) roguelike tutorial. Python is definitely the language you want to start with if you're learning on your own. Khan Academy has a playlist (http://www.youtube.com/khanacademy#g/c/36E7A2B75028A3D6) on Python and computer science, although I haven't watched it so I can't speak to its quality. Best of luck to you! :D
EDIT: Oh my armok how the heck do i install python :o
Are you on Windows? It should be as easy as downloading the version you want (I'd go with 2.7.2) and then double-clicking the .msi file to go through the installer. You'll then have IDLE, which is an interpreter you can use to type code into one line at a time, or you can create scripts which IDLE will run (and print out error messages).
As Biag said, the roguelike tutorial using libtcod is awesome, which is what I'm using to base the code for my game off of (The creator of the tutorial doesn't mind if people use his code).
URR said magic is going to be rare but powerful. It's not like we are going to fight against a spellcaster every couple of hours. If the player did something to piss off a spellcaster, he should be ready for it. But I agree, there should be a way to resist spells. Maybe amulets, small charms, blessings from priests or something.
Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.If you feel like weaponizing water, Ice is a popular choice- firing sharp ice like shotgun pellets, coating a battlefield in it, freezing armor (which is really quite unpleasant if you're still wearing it,) so on and so forth. Water also rusts, which has obviously detrimental effects on iron weapons and armor. Lacking an Air school, Water also does well for causing storms and other weather effects. And a final thought, Water magic tends to play a role in divination magics, for settings that don't have that as a separate school, or being fulfilled by Air instead.
Yeah - I was actually currently thinking of getting away from the ice option, but I totally agree with you on storms, diversions, rusting, etc. I think ice has been done far more than water (precisely because, as you say, it's an obvious way to weaponize it) so I'm interested in whether water per se can prove useful :)
Yep; and while there WILL be horrific deaths out there, I think since you're likely to be fighting in a force much of the time, I'd like to keep combat realism high while trying to reduce the number of truly sudden, unexpected deaths. Somehow.
Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.If you feel like weaponizing water, Ice is a popular choice- firing sharp ice like shotgun pellets, coating a battlefield in it, freezing armor (which is really quite unpleasant if you're still wearing it,) so on and so forth. Water also rusts, which has obviously detrimental effects on iron weapons and armor. Lacking an Air school, Water also does well for causing storms and other weather effects. And a final thought, Water magic tends to play a role in divination magics, for settings that don't have that as a separate school, or being fulfilled by Air instead.
Yeah - I was actually currently thinking of getting away from the ice option, but I totally agree with you on storms, diversions, rusting, etc. I think ice has been done far more than water (precisely because, as you say, it's an obvious way to weaponize it) so I'm interested in whether water per se can prove useful :)
Why? Pyromancy is fire and fire is Heat. Ice requires a lack of heat. Draw the heat from the water to somewhere else and you get ice.
Using the same principles you could in theory drain the bodyheat from half of your foes to get the heat to combust the other half... Well, less than half due to needing more heat than one body can provide to ignite another one.
URR, Try decide upon one general principle/rule that dictates a magic type and from there you can start branching out with ideas that apply under said rule.
Sorry to run at the mouth there, this kind of conversation is my meat and potatoes :P
Ice isn't water magic per say in my opinion. Although you are using water as a base component, making ice would belong to another branch and even though it might sound strange at first it's closer to pyromancy(in this case) than Hydromancy.
Why? Pyromancy is fire and fire is Heat. Ice requires a lack of heat. Draw the heat from the water to somewhere else and you get ice.
Using the same principles you could in theory drain the bodyheat from half of your foes to get the heat to combust the other half... Well, less than half due to needing more heat than one body can provide to ignite another one.
URR, Try decide upon one general principle/rule that dictates a magic type and from there you can start branching out with ideas that apply under said rule.Yep; and while there WILL be horrific deaths out there, I think since you're likely to be fighting in a force much of the time, I'd like to keep combat realism high while trying to reduce the number of truly sudden, unexpected deaths. Somehow.
Sudden and unexpected deaths isnt necessarily unfair. If you go stand in the frontlines in a charge against giants you have yourself to blame. If one is standing in the back and directing ones forces there isn't much that would could happen and you can do a risk calculation simply.
Okay, So you were unfortunately standing in the wrong spot as a dragon swept over your forces, coughing fire. Or that catapult stone bounced one time too many and your character was provided with a rather modest gravestone.
But the thing is, you can dismiss the risk 99.9% of the time and if it actually happens... well, just don't fuck with dragons without a water barrel to hide in.
It really depends on how you choose to define things. For example, if Water magic is defined as the ultimate control over H20, then all you're doing to make Ice is forcing it into a crystalline formation, which would also have the interesting side effect of shedding a LOT of heat, very fast. You could theoretically burn rain-soaked victims this way. Similarly, taking liquid water and forcing it into Steam would actually cool the target- this is the basic reason sweating cools you down. Counterintuitive, maybe, but true.
As far as using liquid water directly as a weapon, well, water is pretty damn heavy. Not dense, maybe, but if you can keep it from splooshing everywhere you've got a pretty effective whip. Water would also make a versatile shield- it can obscure or completely hide the wielder, or mislead enemies (through clever use of diffraction- ever try to stab a fish from above-water?), slow down and redirect projectiles, etc. And, what happens if you combine water and earth? You get mud, and presumably a hydromancer would have some influence over it, though maybe not so dramatic as using the raw element.
Sorry to run at the mouth there, this kind of conversation is my meat and potatoes :P
If we're saying "ultimate" control, then don't forget how much influence you have over the weather. Enemy army on the march? Cast a spell that keeps the air around them nice and humid, and make sure no pesky clouds get in the way of the sun. Enemy general trying to give a rousing speech? Hide in the bushes and make his mouth so dry he can barely speak. Someone coming at you with a sword, but you don't want to injure them for whatever reason? Make their hand so slippery they drop the weapon. Your general went partying last night, but the forces of evil are nearby at 6 AM? Wake him up and instantly rehydrate him to get rid of the hangover.
True, watery mud might be controllable. But that all depends on whatever ruleset is being applied.
Perhaps the extent will be limited to just making the mud loose, or maybe you can't do anything because it falls under the domain of another type of magic.
[Quote pyramid, discussing if use of ice is Hydromancy or Pyromancy]
I think a combination of schools could be used in certain situtations like this. If you are trying to affect the heat of a liquid and move it, for example, Pyromancy and Hydromancy skill could be used but not at the same time. You can use your Pyromancy first and turn water into steam, and then use your Hydromancy and control the steam to create a distraction for your escape. Here, I just created a magic smoke bomb. If you fail at the Hydromancy check but succed at the Pyromancy check, you would still create a cloud of smoke but you couldn't control it.
This system would work very well for complex spells. A rough example:
1. Draw water from the sea nearby and lift it up in the air [Hydromancy check. Spell takes 5 seconds to cast] Fail, you can't control it.
2. Move it on top of the enemy forces [Hydromancy check. +10 seconds] Fail, water falls back to sea.
3. Turn water into ice and thus, rain ice on your enemies [Pyromancy check. +5 seconds] Fail, you simply created rain
That spellcasting time I mentioned is made up of course. I know it's turn based.
Why should spells take just one step, when you can have more control? You can add a step 4 to make the ice more sharper before it falls. Any combination you want. Possibilities are endless.
This is good - optimization is key when creating a game that will have a lot of content in the long term. The more streamlined you make it now, the less pain you'll have to deal with trying to add stuff in the future.
Also, to bring up a new topic, how much detail will the player receive in the midst of battle? There's a skill in DF... what's it called? Observation. That's it. The higher it is, the better you are at avoiding getting ambushed. However, observation in battle may be important, too. A good observer would watch not only his foe's weapon, but his face. His expression. Whether he is pained from injury, or demoralized from the sight of dead comrades.
For example, in the midst of battle, this message could occur:
You hack the spearman's upper right arm!
The spearman grimaces in pain. <-------
And on a simliar note, are you planning on finding a way to smooth the text that tells what is going on? Like so:
The dragon roars in agony.
The dragon collapses.
vs.
The dragon roars in agony and collapses. <---------- This is nicer.
These are just little things, and you don't have to get serious about them right now, but I'm just wondering what plans you have for them, if you have plans for them.
RE: Magic shenanigans- I've always like the ability to use magic in concert, especially since it can make for a very versatile magic system. Example- Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time book series. Magic is broken up into 5 elements (Air, Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit,) and the spells are made of combinations of each element- for instance, Lightning is a combination of Fire and Air. The added wrinkle there is that some magic users are stronger with certain elements, making some more likely to turn the ground into lava geysers, or some more likely to bludgeon their foe with Air, or whatever.
The other example that sprang to mind (and perhaps more applicable to this discussion) was the webcomic Erfworld. For those not in the know, Erfworld is basically about a world based on a tabletop strategy game, hexes and all. I highly recommend it, and if you haven't read it then avoid the spoiler I'm about to reveal.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
RE: Devblog- Is experience awarded solely for kills, or per attack, or per encounter, or what?
Hmm, interesting - I think the combining magic idea is one that's definitely worth looking into (haven't read the Wheel of Time, but might at some point).My favorite series, started reading em when i was about 10 years old :)
Hmm, interesting - I think the combining magic idea is one that's definitely worth looking into (haven't read the Wheel of Time, but might at some point).My favorite series, started reading em when i was about 10 years old :)
The magic system in WoT is based on the fore mentioned five elements. The user then takes the components and 'weaves' them into a spellform.
Strength in the power defines simultaneous spells, the magnitude and partially range.
There's more rules to that than this, like affinity to one type, joining power etc.
Didn't even suggest this type of system as you seemed more inclined to strict powerhouse magics rather than this flexible one.
I haven't really looked into this thread before now, and I regret it (the not looking bit). I wasn't introduced to roguelikes before I faceplanted into DF, and since then all the roguelikes I've played have kind of fallen short of the hopes and dreams DF jammed into my brainspace. Sure, Cataclysm, Nethack, and IVAN are fun, but none of them have the whole package: a robust combat system, a large open world, and glorious, glorious deaths. But this gem being developed here seems to be hitting on all my desires in a roguelike. If it were a woman I'dprobablydefinitely propose.
You can expect my full attention from this point forward.
I don't know how many loading screens there are in Skyrim because CK isn't out yet but Oblivion definitely had less than 120. Procedurally generated loading screens are a good idea.I haven't really looked into this thread before now, and I regret it (the not looking bit). I wasn't introduced to roguelikes before I faceplanted into DF, and since then all the roguelikes I've played have kind of fallen short of the hopes and dreams DF jammed into my brainspace. Sure, Cataclysm, Nethack, and IVAN are fun, but none of them have the whole package: a robust combat system, a large open world, and glorious, glorious deaths. But this gem being developed here seems to be hitting on all my desires in a roguelike. If it were a woman I'dAlso, how many loading screens do you think there are in Skyrim? As in, how many segments of text? I can't find a total, but URR now has around 120, all of which are a paragraph, and the loading times are both pretty rare & short. I think it's a good compromise. I'll throw up a screenshot of a loading screen at some point. Also, a lot of the loading screens for each game are going to be procedurally-generated! More on this later...probablydefinitely propose.
You can expect my full attention from this point forward.
I think your loading screens should be squads of guys fighting it out. Doesn't even have to be running the main combat engine, just do some simple calculations so the player can watch little battles go on while they wait. Assuming it's more than a few seconds load time, anyway.
As long as we have a step-by-step magic system, I'm game. I'm glad you liked that idea. Only your imagination should be the limit when it comes to spellcasting, rather than the classic "cast x to make y" kinda spells.
Procedurally generated loading screens. Awesome.
RE: Magic Systems
The biggest difference between a flexible Rule Magic system and Whatevermancy is how difficult it is to implement and balance. Whatevermancy is very easy- you define a spell cost, and a specific effect, and you're done. The user has extremely limited power to alter the spell- no toning down a Fireball to light a cigarette, for example. A more flexible system would involve specifying a series of individual effects and modifications a magic user can cause, and then figuring out how they all interact with one another. This obviously makes it more difficult to balance, and more difficult for the AI to use intelligently.
If this was going to be more of an RPG, I'd encourage Rule Magic since learning the ins and outs of an internally consistent magic system is always great fun. Since this is a strategy game, I'd say Whatevermancy with specific spells and effects would be the way to go.
I don't know how many loading screens there are in Skyrim because CK isn't out yet but Oblivion definitely had less than 120. Procedurally generated loading screens are a good idea.
As long as we have a step-by-step magic system, I'm game. I'm glad you liked that idea. Only your imagination should be the limit when it comes to spellcasting, rather than the classic "cast x to make y" kinda spells.
I think your loading screens should be squads of guys fighting it out. Doesn't even have to be running the main combat engine, just do some simple calculations so the player can watch little battles go on while they wait. Assuming it's more than a few seconds load time, anyway.
Procedural load screens sound cool. Will they be things like giving abridged histories of cities/nations in the current world?
I agree with this. And building off of what Leatra has said, I would like to suggest a magic system that operates like building blocks(Sorry if I'm stealing your idea, Leatra.), first, you define what it does(animating a corpse/starting a fire), then you add how long/how powerful it should be(super-zombie/cigarette lighting), and then reach/blast(A whole bunch of corpses around X area Y squares away from you are animated as super-zombies/You touch the cigarette on the same square as you and light it.).
I feel it necessary to mention that the 'what it does' bit would probably look like: bolt of [insert negative energy/fire/cold/whatevermancy you do here], touch of [see before], cone of [--], etc.
Each option would add to the total 'cost' of the spell. So super-zombie radius spell would be very expensive(Potent+range+permanent), while lighting the cigarette is peanuts(miniscule+touch+instant).
Thoughts?
Glad you like the idea!
Hmm, I see exactly what you mean. I do want the AI to be using everything sensibly (since I think the current version does so very nicely) and a more complex system would certainly be much more challenging. Interwoven systems also makes magic a bigger focus in the game, which it isn't. Thanks for the thoughts - those are all really good points. Hmm. /pondering
-cut-
I do like this idea. It also gives room for the AI to make judgments about how much time they have to spend casting a more powerful spell, and lets the AI assign protection to mages according to how powerful they are, and therefore how much time they need to cast their spells. How 'cost' factors in is going to be an interesting one, additionally because I'm vaguely considering tying magic to the deity system, but that's a far future idea.
The flexible or an extensive magic system is awesome ... If you make a game about mages which you've said ain't your focus.
Tying magic to deities would basically turn mages into priests and mana into divine favor, unless mages gain their power by intruding upon the gods.
Or that gods become gods by claiming a realm for them self.
Let me describe the system in Malazan book of the fallen.
We have the mundane world and then we have Warrens. The Warrens each have an affinity such as light, dark, shadow, fire and a bunch that has less clearly defined affinities. A warren can be associated to a god but a god does not necessarily belong to a warren.
Mages usually draw from one warren and his craft is defined by it, but there is exceptions.
Priests is granted power from their god but is usually a mage too.
I should point out that mortals can ascend and become power onto themselves or even gain a throne of a warren and thus become a god.
This is mostly a simple summary because there's exceptions, Elder gods and a lot of other shit going on that to understand you'll actually need to read all 10 books :P
In terms of heat resistance, I think a hot/cold continuum would work best, since things like frostbite and hypothermia from fording an icy stream are fun too. What this would mean is that things that deal well with cold (e.g. yetis) probably wouldn't do well in the heat and things that dealt with heat (e.g. cyclops) would have exceptionally poorly in the cold. A complete resistance to fire (e.g. demons) would just be an extreme version the ability to tolerate heat. Clothing and armor should probably also alter this stat.
(acid resistance being stupid, and lightning resistance being too boolean due to the amounts of current a medieval warrior is likely to encounter)
In terms of heat resistance, I think a hot/cold continuum would work best, since things like frostbite and hypothermia from fording an icy stream are fun too. What this would mean is that things that deal well with cold (e.g. yetis) probably wouldn't do well in the heat and things that dealt with heat (e.g. cyclops) would have exceptionally poorly in the cold. A complete resistance to fire (e.g. demons) would just be an extreme version the ability to tolerate heat. Clothing and armor should probably also alter this stat.
(acid resistance being stupid, and lightning resistance being too boolean due to the amounts of current a medieval warrior is likely to encounter)
Problem is that there can exist creatures that is very resistant to anything.
Say a stone golem(UUR include that in geomancy or not) would probably not take damage from fire, cold or lightning, unless its hot enough to melt stone, cold enough to freeze it in place.
If you want DF level of complexity you can add resistances to fire and ice as a temperature that needs to be overcome, but then you'll need to define the temperature of everything. electricity resistance is a bit more complicated due to messing with nerves of organics and giving heat.
The reason we tend to think that golems have "resistances" is that D&D separates physical and energy damage. Everything else follows from there. I see no reason to continue that separation in URR, beyond separating hot and cold from physical damage.Or, by not even mixing in D&D into it, just applying logic to it. Burning a rock does not do much, unless you rapidly cool it afterwards. A golem of stone would be the same but with the addition of joints and source of animation as weak points.
In the context your using the term resistances, I really don't like that term. I think that susceptibility to heat/cold and tolerance for toxins are important things to track, but once you move away from nethack style boolean resistances to some sort of continuum, they should just be considered another stat. I think this is especially true when you talk about poison resistance. While it's cool that hydra's are hard to poison and have a toxic bite, in a strategy roguelike centered out medieval warfare, the most important test of poison resistance is probably how it handles water. Water near armies has a tendency to be vile. Either it's a mile down stream from another unit and filled with waste, or it's a mile down stream from some dead bodies, or it's been poisoned by some dastardly guerrilla warrior. Unlike hydra's, which are dealt with by heroes and monstrous soldiers and the cream of the crop, everyone has to drink.
In terms of heat resistance, I think a hot/cold continuum would work best, since things like frostbite and hypothermia from fording an icy stream are fun too. What this would mean is that things that deal well with cold (e.g. yetis) probably wouldn't do well in the heat and things that dealt with heat (e.g. cyclops) would have exceptionally poorly in the cold. A complete resistance to fire (e.g. demons) would just be an extreme version the ability to tolerate heat. Clothing and armor should probably also alter this stat.
With regards to resistances you missed, I think disease resistance and some form of psychic resistance are the only two that come to mind (acid resistance being stupid, and lightning resistance being too boolean due to the amounts of current a medieval warrior is likely to encounter).Disease resistance is important enough to separate from constitution and poison resistance because a)it allows soldiers raised in cities to be hardy in a different way than the barbarian from the frozen north and b) big strong hearty hydras get sick too. Much like poison, disease plays a big part in medieval warfare (arguably a bigger role than battles), and while tracking the number of your soldiers who have the the sniffles might be a little boring, things like cholera, bubonic plague, severe flu, scarlet fever, polio, whooping cough, smallpox, malaria, legionaries disease, leprosy and whatever fantastic maladies you dream up would be fun to track.
Problem is that there can exist creatures that is very resistant to anything.
Say a stone golem(UUR include that in geomancy or not) would probably not take damage from fire, cold or lightning, unless its hot enough to melt stone, cold enough to freeze it in place.
If you want DF level of complexity you can add resistances to fire and ice as a temperature that needs to be overcome, but then you'll need to define the temperature of everything. electricity resistance is a bit more complicated due to messing with nerves of organics and giving heat.
Well, the first question is whether or not there are golems, the second question is how "hitpoints" are going to be handled versus a DF style psysics system and the third question is there going to be any kind of electrical damage short of a lightning bolt? With something like a golem I see no reason just giving a massive tolerance for damage wouldn't work, that should solve the "resistant to everything" bit. The reason we tend to think that golems have "resistances" is that D&D separates physical and energy damage. Everything else follows from there. I see no reason to continue that separation in URR, beyond separating hot and cold from physical damage.
In terms of temperature, while it's possible to convert the temperature in damage via some sort of physics engine, I think it is completely unnecessary in URR. All I'm saying is that resistance to fire and ice based damage should be tied to a creatures ability to withstand hot and cold temperature, stat wise. URR mentioned in his blog post that he wanted a mechanic which would limit the range of certain creatures. I thought it would be handy if he rolled one of his two resistances into that mechanic, just to keep things simpler.
In terms of electricity, I'm not foreseeing any situation where electricity will come into play aside from lightning bolts. Not much is resistant to lightning bolts. I see know reason to muck around with lower level of electric power and how much they'll make a given creature twitch when applied to them. Obviously this is a design decision up to URR, but I don't think we need to worry about it all that much.
Or, by not even mixing in D&D into it, just applying logic to it. Burning a rock does not do much, unless you rapidly cool it afterwards. A golem of stone would be the same but with the addition of joints and source of animation as weak points.
The question of resistances mostly only concern magical or supernatural creatures, and who is to say that a creature isn't simply immune to external temperature influences?
The fire/cold scale could be defined as normal temperature and thresholds of what a creature can withstand.
Got an idea about when you are going to release the Alpha? I don't mean to push you but I'm just excited for the game :D
Got an idea about when you are going to release the Alpha? I don't mean to push you but I'm just excited for the game :D
Ha, I'm aching for a good combat sim roguelike too. Either URR or that new release of DF is looking good. Ah well, I guess I'll just go back to playing IVAN.
Looks pretty good. Obviously a fairly low-water world, but reasonable for the most part. Although the mountain ranges are oddly N-S/E-W alligned. Might want to tweak them a bit so they don't look so artificial.
On the topic of fire resistance - have you considered making it a more comprehensive slider of heat/cold alignment (creatures with defenses against heat/cold depending on position on the scale) or insulation (simple defense of body temperature against adverse temperature change)?
well, about how long until a download is released? it says before the end of the year, but that is a bit ambiguous, given the amount of time to the end of the year.
Um, great, uh. Two URR posts above you. On this page. The one with the picture? Just up a bit? Yeah. I think you botched your spot check.*facedesks*
well, now there is a profuse amount of blood coming from my nose, I can feel good that I facedesked appropriatl-
*blacks out*
Believe me, I did worse :-[
Anywho, how's the game going? :D
We talked a lot about magic but what about magic weapons and armor? If it's going to get implemented, I don't want it to be like Skyrim's enchanting (40 pts fire damage, that's all?) soooo, I don't have any brights ideas really. What do you guys think?
URR is written in Python?Yup. He is using python + libtcod if I remember right.
Hi Ultima, in response to your blog update, I'd definitely be interested in reading more entries about how you do things code-wise.
Yeah, most roguelike players at least dabble in coding anyway. Last time I dabbled in coding, I was writing scripts for TES:Oblivion. So, I don't know much about coding but I know most people would want to know the code-y side of the game.
I agree, I would love to hear about your coding.
I began working on a project in Python slightly after you began URR, and you are far far far ahead of me, so I would love to learn some sekrets.
URR is written in Python?Yup. He is using python + libtcod if I remember right.
Can't wait for this.Take your time and good luck.
If you get a forum going, I'm sure plenty of people would LOVE to make recommendations on creatures that you should add to the game.
And even if you don't, we here at Bay12 will be more than happy to do so. :D
Curious questions
1: Will their be battlefield building: Ergo, constructing catapults from parts on the fly, battering rams and the like, quick fort defenses?
2: Can you be carried around on a palanquin with soldiers of any race carrying you?
3: How far does your influence to generals reach. Can you sit all the way back in a fort and send commands or just within a certain radius
1) I think catapults/ballistas etc will likely be transported by horses etc, but they'll definitely need some setting up. Quick defenses I'm not sure about; most likely not, and certainly not out in the open, though if you hang around a certain location long enough your camp should hopefully gradually develop into something slightly more defended.Just a trench to get into or making a pile of dirt to get behind and on top of can make a lot of difference and all you need is shovels.
Curious questions
1: Will their be battlefield building: Ergo, constructing catapults from parts on the fly, battering rams and the like, quick fort defenses?
2: Can you be carried around on a palanquin with soldiers of any race carrying you?
3: How far does your influence to generals reach. Can you sit all the way back in a fort and send commands or just within a certain radius
1) I think catapults/ballistas etc will likely be transported by horses etc, but they'll definitely need some setting up. Quick defenses I'm not sure about; most likely not, and certainly not out in the open, though if you hang around a certain location long enough your camp should hopefully gradually develop into something slightly more defended.
2) Heh. Possibly. For now, if you're commanding the army, you just ride on a horse. Palanquins are a nice idea, though...
3) Entirely depends on how strong the lines of communication are. If your orders will get through (logistics-wise), I intend to let you command at any distance, though you can always delegate second-in-commands or others to do the equivalent from slightly closer to other battles.
2) Heh. Possibly. For now, if you're commanding the army, you just ride on a horse. Palanquins are a nice idea, though...
Just a trench to get into or making a pile of dirt to get behind and on top of can make a lot of difference and all you need is shovels.
Sharpened stakes to discourage speedy but non-jumpy creatures.
Large Wicker shields is mostly used in sieges to defend the attackers but can be used defensively too.
there's a lot of small things that can be done fast that can make a large difference but the question is what your engine can support.
The Roman Legions were in the habit of including sharpened logs in their baggage train, allowing them to set up a palisade and ditch for every nights encampment. That's probably on the upper end of what the game should be looking at right now in terms of organization, professionalism and army size. In general term, having a camp-set up mechanic/mini-game could be a solid addition. Things like horse-lines, defenses, latrines, where the camp followers and baggage trains set up, locations of officers quarters (all together for staff meetings and ease of guarding or with their units) and patrols could all be located and set up as a template, allowing you to apply it every night. Having an overly complicated set up would cut down on the time your troops could rest and march, but would protect against calamity (night ambush, dysentery, fire, horse thieves, generals assassinating each other).
In terms of lines of communications, what's your feeling about horse messenger relays?
I've had this thought of having imps carry my throne into combat, ala Father nurgle type things (And hopefully with actual nurglings later on should there be modding!)
As for constructing in the open, I guess I was meaning for siege warfare, should you lose your catapults/siege weaponry and need to build things over periods of months
For magics it would be neat to have diferent random dimensions that are filled with energies that can be channeled through to the mortal world. At lower levels of mahgiks trying to use the cursed daedra/fire king/random deity's staff taken would cause a gate for said "energies" of evil, good, or even fire or water coming through and cause that huge mutiple ork siege to disapear. It would also be cool for those "energies" to cause another siege. Obviously late game dev stuff though that should be and probably is already planned
I've read your dev blog, and it came to my mind that you'll need a better towns/cities system. Currently, It seems that you're thinking something very similar to DF system, and I can assure you that it won't work. At least it won't fit the theme you are aiming for. It's not detailed enough to hold any deplomatic events other than.. well, slaughtering them. You could try something else, like baronies, counties, duchies, castles, cities, and small villages. This way, territorial disputes and army management gets far more interesting than traditional DF towns. Like, soldiers from castles are very well trained, but upkeep costs a lot, soldiers from villages are hardly combat trained, but they are free, as they are levies. I can go on and on but you get the idea. Think of all the things you can do with that. A Dwarven king orders his dukes to attack the elves, and the dukes raise their army, various counts and barons answer the call to arms, and player gets to fight as a soldier / captain / mercenery whatever you name it. You can be the nobleman himself as you play. Also, from what I understood, this game is not a strategy game focused on the nation, but rather on the character, so conquering the world yourself as a general of an army seems a bit.. stupid. Again, with the help of the feudal system, you can greatly enhance the quality of the game while lengthening the gameplay.
Will this game be moddable and will it support interactions that can change/add/remove body-parts?
snip
-snip-Im not saying its true, But by going by, say standard army structure, you start out alone and either join or employ others.
have a strategy game where you're actually a player character, rather than an omniscient commander?
Quotehave a strategy game where you're actually a player character, rather than an omniscient commander?
This actually touches on one of my own ideas for a game (my own in the sense that nobody else who's thought it has followed through, anyway.) That is, instead of having perfect view of the battlefield you only have view of whatever is in line of sight, and only have direct control of units in earshot. You knowledge of the rest of the map would be based on scouting reports your other commanders gave you, and would be noted as being "x turns out of date" so you have a better chance to try and predict enemy movements. If you wanted to alter the battle plan mid-engagement you'd have to send messengers to those commanders, who may or may not disregard or alter those orders based on their own assessment of the engagement (they won't come to reinforce you if they're holding off a surprise rear assault, for example, and will instead ask you for help!)
"Their own assessment" of the engagement is the kicker, and would involve the commander's skill as a leader, personality traits, and perhaps a bit of how much he likes you/the person he's ordered to bail out. A big part of the game becomes cultivating a good staff of commanders you work well with, and matching up those commanders with the types of units and assignments they are best suited for.
...English is not my first language, and I might have been kind of obscure. What I meant was that with the town genning system like similar to DF, it will be kind of hard to put all the management stuff inside. I should have said making it more like Mount & Blade style would be sort of better for that. Trading / recruiting / arming soldiers etcetera for your army consisted of one thousand men df style can quite.. you know, break the immersion. Running around from building to building as a commander to get a few hundred breastplates somehow reminds me of Monty Python and the holy grail. Now that I think of it, I might have entirely misjudged your intention... and I have nothing against the character based system, In fact I'm dying to try the alpha release out just because of it.
Anyways, that minimap looks wicked. Keep up the good work :D
Im not saying its true, But by going by, say standard army structure, you start out alone and either join or employ others.
If you employ others, then you're basically a squad leader and lets say that one squad is 10 soldiers and one leader(i.e. You).
But now you employ another 5 guys and go over that limit so you designate another guy as leader for that squad but your fighting force is still to small to make use of higher ranks and thus the control interface would stay as it were for controlling the lone squad.
But your force grows to nine squads, and controlling all your men gets unwieldy. So now you put two men, each in charge of three squads, which you give orders to while you control the remaining three.
Later when your army gets large enough you'll just send out orders to your officers.
Atleast i assume something like this, If URR can get the A.I intelligent enough to not require direct intervention at all times.
I think he is talking about counties, duchies, kingdoms, empires and vassals who manage them like the way Paradox done it in Crusader Kings. You know, vassals rebel, kings assassinate vassals who are not loyal, civil wars start when a new heir appears, vassals plot the downfall of the tyrant king, vassals have their own influence, etc.
This actually touches on one of my own ideas for a game (my own in the sense that nobody else who's thought it has followed through, anyway.) That is, instead of having perfect view of the battlefield you only have view of whatever is in line of sight, and only have direct control of units in earshot. You knowledge of the rest of the map would be based on scouting reports your other commanders gave you, and would be noted as being "x turns out of date" so you have a better chance to try and predict enemy movements. If you wanted to alter the battle plan mid-engagement you'd have to send messengers to those commanders, who may or may not disregard or alter those orders based on their own assessment of the engagement (they won't come to reinforce you if they're holding off a surprise rear assault, for example, and will instead ask you for help!)
"Their own assessment" of the engagement is the kicker, and would involve the commander's skill as a leader, personality traits, and perhaps a bit of how much he likes you/the person he's ordered to bail out. A big part of the game becomes cultivating a good staff of commanders you work well with, and matching up those commanders with the types of units and assignments they are best suited for. This then leads into a meta-game of recruiting/promoting promising officers, perhaps competing with other factions for talent. And intra-faction competition would be interesting as well- all kinds of possibilities there.
Re:Devblog, whee deities!
I'm pretty sure that's exactly how this game will work. The developer's stated that you'll need to send runners to your lieutenants in order to deliver orders in the middle of battle, and the lieutenants can override their orders if they think things aren't going well.
and trying to get it sufficiently speedy that vast battles won't be slowed by it :).
and trying to get it sufficiently speedy that vast battles won't be slowed by it :).
How do you optimize it?
Simply wise coding (bottleneck hunt), use of multi threading, use of GPU computing, use of assembly code, "simplification" of combats far away or even the creation of a new CPU with specific hardware acceleration for the game?
and trying to get it sufficiently speedy that vast battles won't be slowed by it :).
How do you optimize it?
Simply wise coding (bottleneck hunt), use of multi threading, use of GPU computing, use of assembly code, "simplification" of combats far away or even the creation of a new CPU with specific hardware acceleration for the game?
Mostly a bottleneck hunt, and I'm considering a simplification of combats that are far away. I'm looking into Python's multi-threading ability, but I don't think I'm going to go down that route.
It's ridiculously handy (the multi-threading, that is).
This is looking really cool. Can't wait to play. :D
It's ridiculously handy (the multi-threading, that is).
This is looking really cool. Can't wait to play. :D
Is it? Interesting. Maybe I should look more into it... and thanks :D! Gearing up for a week of pretty solid coding from Saturday onwards at the moment, by the end of which I'm hoping for a lot of progress on creatures/combat etc...
So.. when will the game be released? :D
These days, multithreading is almost a coding requirement. Core speeds won't be going up by much anymore, just the number of cores and multithreading efficiency will keep increasing.
These days, multithreading is almost a coding requirement. Core speeds won't be going up by much anymore, just the number of cores and multithreading efficiency will keep increasing.
Well, Core speed will continue to speed up... but mostly on high end CPU since Intel seems to fight on smaller and more low power CPU. But prefetch, better cache, technologies like "turbo boost" and maybe new instructions will help maintaining single core perf.
As for multithreading, use "import threading" in Py http://docs.python.org/library/threading.html (http://docs.python.org/library/threading.html). At first I recomande you to multithread only different part of your program ( like the logs, the UI, the music and the AI that aren't related ). Then you can monitor witch thread is the bottleneck, and try to make like one thread for ally AI, and another for the foe, then another for faraway combats. You know, with proper multithreading, my fortress in DF could at least three time bigger. :'(
I always thought that civilization could be simulated with simple voting rules. First, the people of a family eventually learn to elect a leader. The leader gets old. He tries to make sure *someone he trusts* gets the succession. People elect different guy upon death. Fighting ensues. If monarchs son gets it the people will be sad, but eventually try again to restore monarchy. If the elected gets it, he will try to get his son in power causing possible fighting again. Fighting can occur in stalemate. Losers become #slaves# based on law. This was inspired by CK2 motives. I want CK2, but I gots macs :'(
*often family, because you know family won't do bad.
#worst case scenario they become slaves and slavery is invented. Best case they lose a title.
Somehow one day I will translate this into numbers and chances. But for now I give you this very, very, very watered down look into my convoluted and biased (towards liberalism of course :P) mind.
If you don't implement multithreading now, you'll have lots of fanboys (including me) begging you to include it later :P
Just look at Dwarf Fortress. People debated about it for a long time but I understand. It could mean Toady spending a year rewriting codes for multithreading. You don't just go "meh, I'll multithread this shit" while in development.
Well, Core speed will continue to speed up... but mostly on high end CPU since Intel seems to fight on smaller and more low power CPU. But prefetch, better cache, technologies like "turbo boost" and maybe new instructions will help maintaining single core perf.
As for multithreading, use "import threading" in Py http://docs.python.org/library/threading.html (http://docs.python.org/library/threading.html). At first I recomande you to multithread only different part of your program ( like the logs, the UI, the music and the AI that aren't related ). Then you can monitor witch thread is the bottleneck, and try to make like one thread for ally AI, and another for the foe, then another for faraway combats. You know, with proper multithreading, my fortress in DF could at least three time bigger. :'(
That makes a lot of sense. Thing is, though, Python seems to imply it still only uses one thread 'at once', so I'm unclear how this is faster than just using a single thread. Excuse my hardware ignorance :(. Surely using multiple cores, but in sequence, is no different from using one? Still, I've started looking at the documentation for the multithreading Python stuff...
I also thought about lore as a skill. I’m not sure if it’s a good idea or not. I’m talking about things like necro lore, infernal lore, ocean lore, nature lore, mythological lore, etc. For example, if you have a very low necro lore, your character can’t tell the difference between a lich and a zombie. If your character has a very high necro lore, your character can identify necromancers at sight. When you encounter a human necromancer he would be identified as an ‘a male human necromancer’. Lore skills could be learned by reading books.
It sounds a little hardcore role-playing but I’m just brainstorming. Feel free to use the idea however you like. Maybe add a ‘magic lore’ skill so players can identify spells and spellcasters.
Believe me when I say that using the threading module still speeds multiple threads up significantly. That's all I've been using so far, because I started coding Cult when Python was on version 2.4, but you should also know that Python 2.6 just came out with a module that does implement true multiple processes by circumventing the global interpreter lock: http://docs.python.org/library/multiprocessing.html
I'm probably going to be switching over to that module in the next couple of weeks. Can't tell you about the speed difference yet, but I imagine it'll be considerable, at least on a machine like the one I'm using (four core @ 3.4ghz/core).
But yes, right now, even just using the old module... still big speed leaps.
Hey, I just had a thought:
will the materials be like DF or more like other RPGs as in, like DF, will a warhammer be super effective if made out of silver, but steel or some other light metal will be crap for a hammer, and vice versa for stabby/slashy weapons?
...
It's ridiculously handy (the multi-threading, that is).
This is looking really cool. Can't wait to play. :D
Is it? Interesting. Maybe I should look more into it... and thanks :D! Gearing up for a week of pretty solid coding from Saturday onwards at the moment, by the end of which I'm hoping for a lot of progress on creatures/combat etc...
These days, multithreading is almost a coding requirement. Core speeds won't be going up by much anymore, just the number of cores and multithreading efficiency will keep increasing.
Cool. In that case, I'll try putting it in. At least, I'll try figuring it out, since I have to confess I can't make *any* sense of it right now. A few questions, then, if you've got it working - how significant is the issue in the red box at the top of that page?
And it says it only works for windows/unix; for a mac release, would I have to remove it all? And, lastly, how hard was it to implement the old version (and what stage did you start putting it in at)?
...
I think it's a great idea - see reply on blog!
Will we be able to load people into catapults and launch them over walls haphazardly?It's funny how many people ask that :P
Will we be able to load people into catapults and launch them over walls haphazardly?It's funny how many people ask that :P
bay12 and you wonder WHY people ask that?Will we be able to load people into catapults and launch them over walls haphazardly?It's funny how many people ask that :P
once seige weapons are moddable, someone will make a dragon firing ballistapult.Ironically, in Dwarf Fortress the only thing catapults can launch are rocks. Not even flaming rocks. And they don't even do much damage. >:(bay12 and you wonder WHY people ask that?Will we be able to load people into catapults and launch them over walls haphazardly?It's funny how many people ask that :P
Why mount the catapult ON the carp and fire elven children when you could be FIRING the carp AT elven children?once seige weapons are moddable, someone will make a dragon firing ballistapult.Ironically, in Dwarf Fortress the only thing catapults can launch are rocks. Not even flaming rocks. And they don't even do much damage. >:(bay12 and you wonder WHY people ask that?Will we be able to load people into catapults and launch them over walls haphazardly?It's funny how many people ask that :P
The ability to launch elven children is the bare minimum. Bonus point if the catapult is mounted on a flying carp.
Cool. In that case, I'll try putting it in. At least, I'll try figuring it out, since I have to confess I can't make *any* sense of it right now. A few questions, then, if you've got it working - how significant is the issue in the red box at the top of that page?
From a brief check of the linked issue page, it appears to affect OpenBSD/FreeBSD/related platforms. I guess the seriousness depends on how multi-platform-friendly you are determined to make your game.QuoteAnd it says it only works for windows/unix; for a mac release, would I have to remove it all? And, lastly, how hard was it to implement the old version (and what stage did you start putting it in at)?
That I can't tell you, unfortunately. As for the difficulty of implementation, it can be a bit tricky to learn how to have two processes running in parallel that don't interfere with each other or do weird things to your output, but it's not too crazy to figure out. The actual code structure itself is relatively simple; you create a class that inherits from the multiprocessing class provided in the module, then set it up as instructed, and run it by creating an instance of the class and using, say, MyThreadingInstance.start().
I think I started using it... geez, I can't recall exactly, but originally it was just for some lightweight trickery with a couple of display classes that did fancy things like fading text and variable lighting and whatnot, so pretty early on. But you could always switch over something like your pathfinding algorithm just by restructuring the way it works. Even if you only switch pathing to multiprocessing, you'll likely still see a big boost in game speed.
Awesome! :D
Now that you mention it, I'm very curious about the skill table. I think skills and attributes are essential in RPGs and the power of the character you are role-playing is much more important than the skill of the player.
-snip-so a copper war hammer would do more damage than an iron one, opposite for swords?
yay!
The skill table is... big. Very big. I think there's 90 skills at the moment, unless I'm greatly mistaken, each of which gives out something special (for you, and for creatures) at 30, 50
increased mass with identical acceleration would result more force, so a hammer made out of copper (fairly dense) would be better than a hammer made out of iron (less dense) because a hammer would be attempting to put as much force into the other person's body.
a sword, on the other hand, would be better is made out of iron than copper because iron is harder and can hold an edge (and get a sharper one) than copper, so it's be better for slicing through someone.
This; even without implementing the physics models of DF, there should be different hierarchies for different roles. Also, warhammers are generally piercing weapons.
-snip-
If you have equipment wear/damage in place you could model things like that. A copper mace might be nice and powerful, but it'll hold up worse than a steel one.
-snip-
yes, but if you had weapons degrade, depending on what it is made of, you could have an interesting choice. A steel mace that'll last ages, or a silver one that'll be demonic in combat, buit will deform after a few whacks, and after a while, will become completely unusable...
-snip-
also, will there be fantasy metals? if so, will they have any special effects, or just be super-strong etc.?
Another thing to keep in mind with bashing weapons is that heavier isn't always better. A really heavy maul will hit hard, but you might have a hard time hitting at all with how slow it is. Also, you're going to tire out a lot faster using that heavy of a weapon.
That's why most period weapons only weighed a few pounds at most. If you're going to have to fight for an extended amount of time, like all afternoon, you need to be able to do so without exhausting yourself. It doesn't really matter if you incapacitate the first 10 guys you come across if you're so tired that the 11th cuts you down easily. Your side might win battles that way, but it's a bad way to stay alive as a soldier.
The skill table is... big. Very big. I think there's 90 skills at the moment, unless I'm greatly mistaken, each of which gives out something special (for you, and for creatures) at 30, 50
Will it be possible to randomize a bit these bonus? Instead on fixed level 20, make it happen at level 18 + 1D4. So this way something with level 20 won't necessarily have the cutting edge on a level 19 one. And maybe shift the level up or down depending of the species. Like elven recieve the bonus for the bow skill at 28 + 1D4 - 2 and Dwarfs get it at 28 + 1D4 + 4. This way it might be a little incentive to specialize accordingly to the species strengths.
And for the piercing hammer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer).
I think a linear progression makes some sense in gameplay terms, and there are plenty of arguments for this in design terms, as opposed to just the consideration of pure material properties.
e.g. say copper is ~20% more dense than iron, that just means you use 20% more iron to make the same weight ...
There would also be strong arguments to say the superior rigidity and hardness of iron would far outweigh the density benefits of copper in creating a weapon design useful for fighting.
Just some thoughts, anyway.
Indeed- it works well in Dwarf Fortress because the gameplay emphasis is on crafting and preparation, not tactics. Thus, it behooves the player to learn about the different material properties to create a variety of interesting and effective weapon/material combinations, instead of just spamming Ubermetal Weapons.
In a game where you're more worried about the actual fighting than the making of the weapon, a linear progression is an acceptable break from reality.
A few slightly more serious questions than my last one:
I've tried reading through as much of this thread as possible, but it's hard to keep up, so I apologize if this was asked before. Have you had any thoughts on traps like pitfall traps, spike pits, swinging log ram things, and so on?
Also, since this is a strategic game, terrain is going to do a good bit of tactic dictating. But would these have any numerical value? (For example, an enemy charging up a hill would get fatigued faster and hit the defenses with less force, or a force wading through a stream being much easier to hit than a similar force moving through a field)
My questions might be worded poorly, but it's just that once I get started thinking about this game, my mind wanders off and I lose my train of thought.
also, would having archers attack from a hill give them a range bonus, and archers attacking up a hill have the opposite?
Short weapons are kunais, daggers, stilettos, knives, and sais.Why are you going with such exotic varieties (many of which are subtypes of other types, e.g. katana is a Japanese variety of longsword), but don't use more common types like a basic two-handed sword?
Slashing weapons are scimitars, shortswords, sabres, katanas and longswords.
Long weapons are pikes, spears, halberds, ranseurs and naginata.
Heavy weapons are clubs, warhammers, flails, maces and axes.
warhammers will be best at pulling foes off horsesI'm pretty sure warhammers weren't intended for that, but rather for piercing armor.
Short weapons are kunais, daggers, stilettos, knives, and sais.Why are you going with such exotic varieties (many of which are subtypes of other types, e.g. katana is a Japanese variety of longsword), but don't use more common types like a basic two-handed sword?
Slashing weapons are scimitars, shortswords, sabres, katanas and longswords.
Long weapons are pikes, spears, halberds, ranseurs and naginata.
Heavy weapons are clubs, warhammers, flails, maces and axes.
warhammers will be best at pulling foes off horsesI'm pretty sure warhammers weren't intended for that, but rather for piercing armor.
and a thought: will pikes, being so long as they are, be able to attack units several tiles in front? I can remember that they actually used their length for something like this:
Halberds/bills were also used for pulling cavalry off their horses a lot, methinks.
so the archers were protected (from cavalry, at least) and the archers were still able to fire.Not really. The cavalry would get a few losses but the pike density is too thin to actually protect the archers. better with a stake wall in that case, or putting the archers behind the pikes.
so the archers were protected (from cavalry, at least) and the archers were still able to fire.Not really. The cavalry would get a few losses but the pike density is too thin to actually protect the archers. better with a stake wall in that case, or putting the archers behind the pikes.
And thinking of that. what about mixed weapons units? First row is sword/shortspear and shield with the second and third row is pikemen and the rest behind is pikemen ready to fill in the holes but while they wait they can throw javelins.
Right, so this will need lots of training but it's damn efficient against anything other than archers
I can't think of any army that used anything like what Ivefan describes.Because it's not really feasonable. The required coordination, dicipline, regiment cohersion and weapons training would turn because of cost and time.
artilleryYES.
Will these corpse-a-pults lower the enemy morale/spread diseases?Yup, both.
There will be siege weapons (one is in the very early stages of testing, but it won't see the first alpha by any means), you will be able to hurl rocks, fireballs, corpses, etc. Also live captured enemies, if you're feeling particularly evil. But not carps, dwarves, people, dwarf-carps, carp-people, or anything else. Sorry guys :(
... as for siege weapons, I think you will have a choice of transporting them built (so you need, say, two horses per catapult, etc) or you construct them loose (in which case just people can transport them) but then you have to set them up. I think developments on that idea could get a good risk/reward thing going...
Quotewhat about screamin´ magical skulls for the catapults for extra mind-fuck?
Definitely. Consider them on the list.
"HaHa, no little greenhorn, Dragons fly, its Wyverns that have to be catapu... AW FRACK"live animals on the catatapaults?dragons?
actually...
'What is it? Dragons?'
Hell yeah for the neat looking UI! :D
I'm curious about how are you going to handle horseback fightining. When you are not riding anything, maybe there should be an indicator to show how many moves the guys on horses can make until you can make one. Being able to magically know the speed of every horse doesn't make it such a nice idea though. Maybe it could be a little vague like "5-9" depending on... one of your skills. Hell, it could work for all creatures and not just horsemen. It could work like a skill to not only predict their speed but their strengths and weaknesses as well... I got a little carried away.
so the archers were protected (from cavalry, at least) and the archers were still able to fire.Not really. The cavalry would get a few losses but the pike density is too thin to actually protect the archers. better with a stake wall in that case, or putting the archers behind the pikes.
And thinking of that. what about mixed weapons units? First row is sword/shortspear and shield with the second and third row is pikemen and the rest behind is pikemen ready to fill in the holes but while they wait they can throw javelins.
Right, so this will need lots of training but it's damn efficient against anything other than archers
Game is starting to look really good!
In this case the wall might be dense enough to frighten the horses (they don't charge in walls!), and there should be at least three consecutive rows of pikes. And anyway, when the enemy is at 15m, do you think archers would stay in front?
Also, I know that this is waaaaaay off topic, but.. artillery? Please say yes. I've always been of the "over there, over kill" mindset, in which massed artillery plays a huge part. You've mentioned siege engines, but not artillery specifically, so I'm hoping for a definitive answer.
You might want to wait for the dev to talk about corpses as a way to reduce morale and spread diseases. I'm not sure with that one.
"HaHa, no little greenhorn, Dragons fly, its Wyverns that have to be catapu... AW FRACK"live animals on the catatapaults?dragons?
actually...
'What is it? Dragons?'
Different breeds of horses and a skill that allows the player's character to know about breeds. That sounds awesome! I'm looking forward to the skill list.Hell yeah for the neat looking UI! :D
I'm curious about how are you going to handle horseback fightining. When you are not riding anything, maybe there should be an indicator to show how many moves the guys on horses can make until you can make one. Being able to magically know the speed of every horse doesn't make it such a nice idea though. Maybe it could be a little vague like "5-9" depending on... one of your skills. Hell, it could work for all creatures and not just horsemen. It could work like a skill to not only predict their speed but their strengths and weaknesses as well... I got a little carried away.
Thanks! I've been wondering similar, about how you judge the speed of horses (and, for that matter, what the speed of horses actually is). Again, it depends on how much depth I want in this area - I'm thinking about having different 'qualities' of horse in terms of breeds, etc, and the more you know about riding, the more you can identify a breed, and thus the player will know Breed A is only twice as fast, but Breed X is fast and tough, etc. There are skills centered around your knowledge of creatures, and the higher those skills are, a) the more you can identify and b) the more skillful you are at dealing damage to their weak points - again, that'll appear in the skills list in the near future! : )
I have no particular objection to catapulting Wyverns.You really know how to attract the Bay12 community :P
Hmm. Knowledge on the specific weaknesses of animals/creatures could be good. Although with horses you don't really need to know anything besides it being a horse to know the weak spots, as all of the various horse breeds are pretty fragile.
Hmm. Knowledge on the specific weaknesses of animals/creatures could be good. Although with horses you don't really need to know anything besides it being a horse to know the weak spots, as all of the various horse breeds are pretty fragile.
My recommendation is the ability to force an enemy force over a cliff.Insert obligatory "This. Is. Sparta." joke here
You really know how to attract the Bay12 community :P
Hmm. Knowledge on the specific weaknesses of animals/creatures could be good. Although with horses you don't really need to know anything besides it being a horse to know the weak spots, as all of the various horse breeds are pretty fragile.
Oh wise and mighty developer, as much as I appreciate ballistae, may I make one small additional suggestion to improve the overall quality of your fine work? More ballistae. :P
I think that it makes sense to invert the typical way knowledge skills work here. Normally games have it set up so that low levels of knowledge provide knowledge of capabilities and high levels of knowledge provide insight into a creatures weaknesses (or just straight bonus damage). While this makes some sense in terms of analyzing fighting styles, it makes very little sense when you're talking about horses, or elephants or bears. Essentially once you know a little bit about the creature you have a general sense of it's anatomy and have some idea about it's weaknesses. What's harder is noticing the slight differences in appearance and behavior that signal it's intentions or capabilities.
This ability to evaluate is especially crucial when it comes to cavalry. Are the enemy mounted on destriders or plow horses? being able to tell at a glance from a couple of hundred yards away which is which is a)much harder than knowing that horses hooves a full of nice delicate bones that crunch well under the butt of your spear and b) more important to a leader.
My recommendation would be to remove the bonus damage from knowledge skills, and instead have an ignorance penalty for lack of basic familiarity. This could manifest as both a decrease in combat effectiveness (you don't know where to stab) and greater morale penalties. Increases in a knowledge skill past this point would give you greater insight into the state a capabilities of creatures, how fast they move, how fatigued they are, how well trained they are and so on.
I've been following your site for a couple of months now. I'm hooked on it and I hope to ask a few questions.
- will there be large cities implemented? (including racial cities like dwarven halls)
- Do you plan to implement non-combat oriented details (such as being a caravan master, or a possibly run a business).
- Can you conquer kingdoms and wrest land from people?
(sorry if some of these questions have already been asked)
What level of construction will have at our disposal?
By that I mean whats the size of things we can build, could we say build an entire fortress city surrounded by smaller villages with strongholds dotted around the area, or would it just be like army camp kind of construction (Tent arrangement, palisade construction, ditch placements, log walls, etc.)
PTW this looks really cool.
Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.
What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.
Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.
What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?
Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.
Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.
Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.
Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.
But this would be a function of the unit type, not the strange nature of their bodies. Even if all orcs get a bonus to scaring things shitless, you're still not suffering a penalty because they're weirdly shaped, but because they cause fear. Ignorance and terror are not the same thing.
could there be some form of greek-fire using person.
has limited fuel, not common at all, but by gods will anything in their way know about itt (unless it has fire resistance)
by greek fire, I mean the flamethrower type, not the throwy bottle type.
So I had a long, boring drive home from work today, and I spent most of it thinking about the implications of rogue-like speed systems on unit combat, particularly mounted charges.
In there are generally two ways of handling speed in roguelikes, either fast creates get a free move every X turns, or every turn a fast creature has a Y probability of getting an extra free move. Additionally, waiting generally advances time at the same rate that movement advances, which makes it hard for the slow creature to gain the initiative. Either ap proach has interesting and possibly deleterious implications for URR.
If fast creatures get regular extra moves,charges against enemies slower than you will be sensitive to initial conditions. For example if I can an extra move after every third regular move, charging against a static foe (say a stake wall with archers behind it)from a distance of 3, 7, 11 or 15 will always result in an initial free attack by the cavalry, while charging from 4,5,6,8,8,10.... will not. Since cavalry charges don't make sense in interia-less environments (the momentum of the horse is the weapon), allowing charging horses to 'wait' a turn to regain the correct positioning mid-charge doesn't make sense.
The other option, a random free move, is just as problematic. Imagine a squad of ten horse men charging who get a free move 33% of the time. The group is going to separate out over time, so for particularly long charges you will have a bell curve like distribution of your forces...again since units can't wait this would be sub optimal.
Regarding penalties for fighting unfamiliar creatures, it's likely that whether you fight an orc, a human, or an elf, you'll be fairly familiar with their humanoid structure. Even if this is your first orc battle, maybe you'll be confident enough that you can take them that your morale remains constant.
Huh. So, if for example, a humanoid being fights a quadrupedal creature, or something I dunno, without legs, the humanoid would suffer a penalty, because it doesn't know how to proceed?
Cool. Common sense and confidence, those are interesting qualities that I don't think I've seen really in other video games.
Orcs are ought to be scary. A berserker orc charging into you while shouting a battle cry isn't the same thing with a fragile elf swordsman.
I think every civ should have its own form of individual scariness, for pyschological warfare.
What if you're an Ogre and Elves tend to use Ogres for religious sacrifices?
Any plans of this kind of unique relations between different races? If they are implemented, will they be randomized for each game or pre-set?
In one game, Elven and Dwarven civs are mortal enemies while in another one they will be like Rohan and Gondor in the third age?
But this would be a function of the unit type, not the strange nature of their bodies. Even if all orcs get a bonus to scaring things shitless, you're still not suffering a penalty because they're weirdly shaped, but because they cause fear. Ignorance and terror are not the same thing.
But think about how scary war elephants are, especially if you've never seen an elephant before. Once you get over the "what the hell is that" reaction you can respond better to the threat.
Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):Maybe the breed of horse could determine the odds.
Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.
Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):Maybe the breed of horse could determine the odds.
Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.
Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.Of course, I forgot that.
Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.
Hmm. You might have some success with "smart" charging. As in, fast creatures will use their charge if there's nothng to stop them, or if it would bing them into melee range with an advantage. Otherwise, they'll charge up to just before the point at which they get stabbed (2 tiles away, generally), and use their extra movement on the turn after, in order to get full use of their charging bonus and to win the initiative.
Maybe the cavalry charge could work like this (though I have exactly zero knowledge of what's possible with programming):
Take a three turn sequence for the charge. When the cavalry charges, they move one step for free so long as the area is not occupied. Give each unit a 75%, or whatever you deem fair, for another free step forward (or engage in combat with an enemy in front of him/her/it). Then another 25% or whatever chance to move yet another time. I think it'd effectively portray the loss of unit cohesion over a prolonged charge.
There is only one thing I'm certain about horseback fightining.
Only because riders have more turns than the infantry, that doesn't mean they can attack 5 times in a row. If a horseman has like... 6 turns, he should be only allowed to use 1 for attacking.
Also, if you keep moving without changing your direction much, you should gain more speed by acceleration.
Though maybe if the enemy line is deeper than one man they can get an extra attack movement if they obliterate the first unit (which would be like a sweeping decapitation as the horseman rode past). Other than that I agree completely.
That might want to be a flag on some weapon, like lances and horses. It probably doesn't work so well with a mace.
I do think a separate attack/move timer would help though, and there would be plenty of instances where you could attack but not move or move but not attack.
Also, there should be an indicator that shows which direction the horse is running.
Something like that might be possible with far lower chances (say, only 5% of dropping behind each move), as I think the numbers you describe would cause almost instant loss of cohesion. However, over a long charge, I think something like this would be good, but the skills of those riding the horses would reduce the amount of cohesion lost.
Hmm. You might have some success with "smart" charging. As in, fast creatures will use their charge if there's nothing to stop them, or if it would bring them into melee range with an advantage. Otherwise, they'll charge up to just before the point at which they get stabbed (2 tiles away, generally), and use their extra movement on the turn after, in order to get full use of their charging bonus and to win the initiative.
So do you mean they get to attack as part of the charge? And if they don't, they get an EXTRA move the turn after? This sounds like an interesting idea - could you elaborate? :)
Downside to that system is there is a big difference between movement speed and attack speed.
There are two skills that really should effect that. The skill of the rider at riding, and the skill of the rider at maintaining discipline. Staying in formation takes a very different mindset than simply being good at a horse (or even being good in combat in general). It's an important skill in general, and one that often made the difference between the most successful armies and ones only moderately successful, even if the soldiers in general were evenly skilled/equipped.
Same thing applies to being in any formation, of course, but it's even harder on horseback where you have to carefully control your mount to stay with the others.
Happily. I propose that fast units should never charge into combat unless they would get the first strike. That's kind of the point of charging, no? In real life it's not an issue, because there are no turns. In URR, I suggest that cavalry should get a bonus action every turn (or several, although you'll want to limit the number of actions that can be used to attack). Normally cavalry will use that bonus action to run towards things, but they will hold back if they would end their turn within 1 tile of an enemy (which would give the defenders the first strike). If bonus actions are left at the end of a cavalry turn, one of them will be added to the beginning of the -next- turn, which would allow the cavalry to close using their bonus movement, strike once using their rollover action and then once more in their normal action. This way, cavalry will have a proper, massive charge (double attacks) in the first turn, without having to give them any sort of speed or charging bonus (and the effects will only be increased if you do decide to give them other bonuses)
The problem I see with this system, however, is that this would give cavalry 2 attacks every turn if they don't use up their full bonus action allowance. A cavalry unit that doesn't move will always have that action rollover, so they'll receive a bonus action every single turn. Alternatively, you could specify when exactly cavalry can have 2 attacks instead of 1, which also seems like a pain in the arse.
Perhaps it would simply be better to have this system, but without the action rollover. If cavalry get bonuses for each combat turn they spend moving without attacking, that might have the same impact on the initial charge, without requiring extra. They'd still refuse to use bonus actions if they wouldn't get the first strike, but it would be so much simpler. Not sure if it's better though.
-ticks-
Downside to that system is there is a big difference between movement speed and attack speed. A knight charging on horseback with a lance can cover a lot of ground, but he really can't get too many attacks in with a lance. One, usually, unless it's a really clean hit or he misses. Splitting Speed into two attributes - Movement and Actions, is a decent way to fix that issue.
That's why you should use a (light)saber and camel mounted religious fanatics!
Anyway, no need to indicate the direction with an arrow if you manage to put some *dust* behind charging cavalry.
Any chance on revealing the skill list? :D
That's quite an extensive skill list.
Also, that border is really cool.
That's list is...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Will it be possible to murder leaders without anyone noticing you are the killer if you have a high infiltration and/or stealth skill?
"ALL HAIL THE REGICIDE KING!"
EDIT: Hey, what about a mapping skill of some sorts? Being able to record the areas you visit and seeing the lands known to you without running around or zooming in and out. If you don't have a high mapping skill your character will "forget" those areas and it will be blank in the world map. Maybe you can buy maps from shopkeepers or ask around for surroundings like in DF.
What is the purpose of tearing every weapon skill and every magic skill into 3-5 pieces? Is there really a need for separate aim and force skills, especially since there's already a strength stat and a dexterity stat kicking around to ensure strong creatures hit hard and deft creatures hit accurately?
I'ma have to back sundial up on this. 5 seems... a little excessive. I could understand 2, perhaps even 3 if there's a good argument for it, but 5 seems like it's a little...too comprehensive. Balance, sir. Balance.
I kinda liked it myself. First 3 skills is same with every weapon and last to 2 skills changes according to the weapon type. Like, dual wielding for short weapons.
And we already concluded that magic was going to have different schools.
If the computer and the 'dice-roll' algorithms can handle these skills in interesting and unique ways (which it sounds like it will), all these different skills could be absolutely wonderful.
My concern would be the computer / player interface, and whether the human brain is keyed up to really be able to understand and care enough about all this esoterica, which it may not if not presented carefully.
It is really up to the game designer to implement these methods in a useful and elegant way. I hope you can do it, because I think the system sounds really interesting.
I said a false messiah.(e.g. being a false messiah)I can imagine B12 users using this to (if possible) get worshippers to believe that being permanantly drunk is the only way to heaven or what have you.
yeah, false messiah. claim you were sent by their god then convince evryone who follows that religion that drunkeness is a state of peace. or something.I do believe he is implying that "being permanantly drunk is the only way to heaven or what have you." is the true way and thus a true messiah.
...a rabbit would do nothing to a human...
Hmm. Considering that we're unlikely to bother using more than 2 different weapon skills, it might work out alright.
I notice that only short weapons have a dual wielding skill. Will light weapons be the only ones we can use in each hand, or will we be able to try more exotic combinations, with only the "off-hand" light weapon benefitting from the dual-wield skill bonus? Obviously, either way, you can use a two handed weapon in each hand, unless you're big enough for the weapon to count as one handed (dual-pike-wielding giants, go!).
Personally, I think it'd be better to simply give a penalty for any weapon wielded with your off hand with skills that can help offset it. Have the penalty be relative to the weight of the weapon, and you have a more logical system with a similar result. Except that if the player really wants a troop of dual axe wielding maniacs he can specifically train them to be at least reasonably decent at it. It may be a bad idea, but it could be fun!
Not sure how ambidexterity would work. It's a pretty rare trait. Maybe if people could have 'Talents' that give them a natural boost to certain skills, it could be one of them? Talents like that could be neat in general. I certainly know people who are good with certain weapons with very little training, even though they're bad at most others, so natural talent is certainly a reasonable thing to have.
That skill list is epic.
Had a thought which is a little off topic though; how will death and saving work?
I mean to say that if you spend hours of work getting some minor goons on your side it would be annoying if that were undone in seconds and be unrecoverable. Will there be an auto saving type-thing or instant unforgiving death?
I guess it comes down to pacing, will it be lightning quick or a slow build up?
Thanks.
(Sorry if this already came up but a quick search said it didn't)
wubblebubblegubble*faints*
are you trying to make a game more complex than DF?
Yes! Well... no, but complex in different ways.
also, will certain weapons have multiple uses? (e.g. using a halberd for stabby AND slashy)
Yes, most weapons will have multiple functions, and most be used in any context, but how effective they are is the question...
and will certain weapons have certain effects like causing more damage to an opponent with armour than another weapon would? (e.g. a dagger would be useless against chainmail, but a hammer would almost go 100% through it)
Yes, classes of weapons have different dis/advantages re: armor, flesh, bone, and various other things. More details soon!
also, could we please go beyond the normal seige machines of (normally) ballistae, catapults and sometimes battering rams?
I want to see maybe some kind of suicide unit that'll charge at walls and blow themselves up (be it in a magical or gunpowder based explosion), ladders to climb up said walls, maybe even chained beasts (chained dragon seige weapons, anyone?)
I like the suicide unit idea, and I think the chained beasts one is a fantastic idea. Consider it added to the list.
and, finally, will there be natural disasters, and if so, will the arichecture of the areas prone to these natural disasters be different? (e.g. in Japan, walls were required to withstand earthquakes, but their architecture made them climable, so they built them as death traps on the inside, rather than being made to keep things out as much as possible)
One day when it wouldn't just be feature-bloat, yes, I'd like natural disasters, but I'm not sure how much gameplay effect they'd have. Probably not things of that sort, simply a disposition away from settling in a certain area, I expect. But that's far from fixed.
ok, ok, THIS is the final one. will a falling object (e.g. giant) landing on a unit damage them, and will creatures be able to throw smaller ones, potentially causing damage to other creatures, and if so, will both of them be based on mass of the falling and fallen-upon (for example, a giant landing on a human will squish him, a rabbit would do nothing to a human, and a giant landing on another giant would be the same as a human landing on a human) and will fall height effect said damage done up to a point (after falling X amount of cubes, the giant wouldn't do more damage than if it fell X+5 cubes, due to reaching terminal velocity)
Yes, a creature landing on another does damage; yes, big creatures can already throw smaller ones, and I've had my spine broken by a Titan throwing me into a tree; it is based on mass, generally, and rarely other factors like the material the creature is made from. And yes, damage scales to a certain point :).
if that last one was added, it could lead to intresting traps, such as knocking boulders off edges or knocking people off of cliffs.
if any of these questions have been asked, then I'm ignorant/forgetful and missed/forgot it.
NINJAEDIT: thought of another thing: could you get crutches for if you get your leg chopped off, and if you had a mage that was able to do so, could you have the limb grown back, or some kind of controllable prosthetic limb? (I'd love a solid steel moveable arm, punches from that'd be knockout blows)
I think replaceable limbs are going to be either prosthetic, or magical, but these are in the early stages so far.
These are some questions I thought of about the game long term goals. My apologies if they already have been answered earlier.
If you die will you play as your successor of the group/civ you were leading?
Will you be able to get a spouse and children (not necessarily in that order)? (I don't want a sex mini-game but it is relevant to the first question.)
Are there other (randomly generated) people in the world who do the same as you? (greatly advancing in power instead of starting as a bandit and dying as a bandit.)
How is religion handled in-game and can you play a part in it? (e.g. being a false messiah)
...a rabbit would do nothing to a human...
Ae you kidding? If someone threw a rabbit at you, it would probably cave your chest in. Rabbits are bigger and heavier than you think. Fluffy wamblers are deadly for a reason!
perhaps make sentient animals chained up actually become friendly to someone who releases them, or the civ that releases themThis sounds good. Infiltrate an enemy fort and free some beasts and watch the chaos as you hide in some corner? !!FUN!!
Religion is based around a semi-random pantheon, but is still being worked out. It will certainly not be in the first alpha! I'm not sure how religious hierarchies will work re: the player and other NPCs, but that's quite a neat idea...
right. so I contributed to possibly an awesome feature that will kill many people as they chain dragons, only to have them breathe fire on them.
epic.
also, another thought on chained beasts, maybe they could be released via them struggling, or the enemy loosening them, or them just eroding. and perhaps make sentient animals chained up actually become friendly to someone who releases them, or the civ that releases them, provided they didn't chain them up in the first place.
Also, for that rabbit thingy, I was think about dropping from 2 meters above you. a rabbit coming down to earth at the same velocity as a comet would certainly be incredibly damaging to a human, as well as depositing a ready-made meal and a huge fuck-off crater.
This sounds good. Infiltrate an enemy fort and free some beasts and watch the chaos as you hide in some corner? !!FUN!!
Will gods have an effect on the world (bless, divine powers, wraths, needs...) or will they only be different for the sack of having different names.
Rabbits kill more humans then sharks.
There's not really anything I can find to complain about, but for the fact that you can't aim for an opponent's eyes. :P Perhaps you can hit two keys, such as + and - to make the attacks more or less specific? That way, if you keep hitting + you can eventually have the option to strike at your enemy's fingers and toes.Yeah, that's what I thought. If I'm using a blunt weapon, I like going for the lower body to damage guts. Sometimes I attack upper torso hoping to penetrate lungs. DF's lower arm, upper arm, back right tooth, etc is seen as an overkill by some players but I'd like to behead my enemy by slashing the throat if the opportunity presents itself :D
Will battles I take part of have effect, such as a battle for control over a town or village? So many questions I have, but I be pleased if you answered these.According to dev, yes.
The new world map looks really nice. You're doing a great job of giving the important information in an easy-to understand manner. Same with the attacking box - it's great to know how armored each part of your opponent is, as well as how damaged.
There's not really anything I can find to complain about, but for the fact that you can't aim for an opponent's eyes. :P Perhaps you can hit two keys, such as + and - to make the attacks more or less specific? That way, if you keep hitting + you can eventually have the option to strike at your enemy's fingers and toes.
Nice. With the Gearhead 2 conversion on ice, this is my single most anticipated game. Hurry the hell up, man! You're killing me!
In the attack screen, is all options tied to an hotkey?
Like 1 for head, 2 for torso, 3 for left leg...
Because I prefer to hit only one key when attacking instead of three time arrow key, then enter whenever I decide to attack another limb.
An interesting looking game. So I can serve in armies, as in go into giant wars with them or how will that work, just be like squad battles. Will battles I take part of have effect, such as a battle for control over a town or village? So many questions I have, but I be pleased if you answered these.
Yeah, that's what I thought. If I'm using a blunt weapon, I like going for the lower body to damage guts. Sometimes I attack upper torso hoping to penetrate lungs. DF's lower arm, upper arm, back right tooth, etc is seen as an overkill by some players but I'd like to behead my enemy by slashing the throat if the opportunity presents itself :D
Other than that, it looks great. UI is really neat.
We could always go with a Sliding system like in EU, would spice things up when looking for followers for your kingdom/army. You'd have to either recruit from kingdoms with similar values or otherwise spread/force your own.
It's Europa Universalis.We could always go with a Sliding system like in EU, would spice things up when looking for followers for your kingdom/army. You'd have to either recruit from kingdoms with similar values or otherwise spread/force your own.
I wasn't aware that the European Union had any such system.
It is REALLY hard to tell of someone's being sarcastic on a forum.
Since you insisted on me asking more, more you shall get. Such as how often will we encounter, weaponry/magic? Is it more common to see different things between species, or will a lack of metals cause more magic to be used, or if excessive, will magic dull in knowledge? As well, if we are soldiers, that would also mean if we ranked up in armies, will we be granted land and therefore eventually perhaps our own village? I'd like people to call me m'lord. As well, how will animals be used, do I expect war horses/dogs/hawks or are they a later feature. For the adventure aspect of it, can a political marriage happen, or even a campaign from an evil force *which I am totally apart of or leading*, will they take brides/grooms forcibly as prizes? Ending questions here for now.
I'm wondering what type of society civs will have. Will they use the standard, oddly centralised "king is absolute ruler", or say, feudalism? I'm a big fan of feudalism, titles, knights, etc. That way, through lots of political maneuvering and assassination, we CAN be called mi'lord.
We could always go with a Sliding system like in EU, would spice things up when looking for followers for your kingdom/army. You'd have to either recruit from kingdoms with similar values or otherwise spread/force your own.
one thing I'd LOVE would be the ability to just blind a creature and watch him flail about, hitting teammates.
that'd be fun.
Also, can some mounts get scared? I liked it on medieval 2 total war where elephants could run amock, ad start flattening a load of stuff. (my favorite thing was when my brother played, an elephant actually flattened the enemy general, causing the whole army to rout.)
Sorry. Next time I'll add a smiley.that's why I always put a :P at the end of my sarcastic comments. or my shitty jokes.
Also if we are able to get married, will it depend on the type of species how it happens? (ex: Humans must ask father for daughter/son's hand, Elves must do a favor for their lover, Dwarves actually gain relationship with the other, Golbins simply take.)
Hm, any chance of an Ethic system ala DF? Even if government allows/forbids/whatever some activities, religion might say otherwise.Also if we are able to get married, will it depend on the type of species how it happens? (ex: Humans must ask father for daughter/son's hand, Elves must do a favor for their lover, Dwarves actually gain relationship with the other, Golbins simply take.)Anyway I will always conquer a harem. :D
I would like to see a system of alliance/wedding, like in medieval time.
dammit, I want to post an idea, but I'm out of them presently...How about explosives in general?
magma bombs?
True; yet we must take the good with the bad.but magma bombs result in an explosion of !!FUN!!dammit, I want to post an idea, but I'm out of them presently...How about explosives in general?
magma bombs?
While I can understand species having similar morals, what would the considered aggressive/passive ratio be, I would assume depending on resources and such humans will declare war on other humans?
As well you talk of enslavement and heirs, would that mean there could be half breed elf/humans eventually? I would assume not at first, but if the DNA were to be semi-compatible, it could make half-breeds.
Will other ways be available to us in terms of jobs? Perhaps as gladiators (if we ourselves are captured alive), or to do actual work to raise our strength, lumberjack, miner, etc.
Also if we are able to get married, will it depend on the type of species how it happens? (ex: Humans must ask father for daughter/son's hand, Elves must do a favor for their lover, Dwarves actually gain relationship with the other, Golbins simply take.)
Hm, any chance of an Ethic system ala DF? Even if government allows/forbids/whatever some activities, religion might say otherwise.Also if we are able to get married, will it depend on the type of species how it happens? (ex: Humans must ask father for daughter/son's hand, Elves must do a favor for their lover, Dwarves actually gain relationship with the other, Golbins simply take.)Anyway I will always conquer a harem. :D
I would like to see a system of alliance/wedding, like in medieval time.
Of course, that depends on what diety you/they believe. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQgc11PnghA)
True; yet we must take the good with the bad.but magma bombs result in an explosion of !!FUN!!dammit, I want to post an idea, but I'm out of them presently...How about explosives in general?
magma bombs?
I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Okay.
Crutches it is.
My eyes are getting bloody.
Ooookay.
So, magical regeneration for severed limbs it is.
I'm glad you like the idea for the cultural difference marriage proposal idea. I've got plenty more. I'm actually quite excited for this game.
Another thing I want to ask is, assuming towns are settled around some kind of resources and there is a lot of trading, will caravans be travelling from town to town so as we can actually attempt to intercept them for their resources OR be paid to protect them on a voyage *temporarily putting them in our character's party* As well other guards could be protecting ones we are trying to loot, depending on the value of what is inside.
Caravans, that sounds nice, this is shaping up to be an awesome and complicated ( aweplicated ) game.
However, that part where the caravan joins your party...do you mean you'll follow them, or will they actually, inexplicably, join you on adventurers/military campaigns you may have?
In any case, I like the idea of settlements forming near resources, that's how it happened in ancient history, after all.
they will inexplicably join yours under the assumption you are leading them to their destination, so I would say that since you are supposed to lead the way, you could lead them into an ambush go back to the king, shrug your shoulders and say "There was nothing we could do."
Another thing is, if we can become royalty and therefore eventually king, queen, leader, at that point what would we be able to do, change laws, I mean, I'm interested to hear an idea bout how that would work for us.
Would laws be made entirely random in the first place? If civs and sentient creatures have certain leanings towards certain values and morals, changing laws that are opposite to them will anger them, right?
Ooooh Revolutions/Civil Wars would be cool, be a good way for new empires to be founded if the map is taken up territorially. So there will always be opponents!
vast cave systems?
by which I mean vast, non-twisty cave systems, like in journey to the center of the earth (that place with the hugeass sea in it)
also, to get a mount, can we tame them, or will we always have to buy them? and if we tame them, will they have difficulty (trivial to impossible?(literally impossible))
Please no, I was under the impression that this was medieval high-fantasy. Steampunk hopefully will not make an appearance here, not that ive anything against it but I think it would somewhat ruin this game.
Eye-patch...
Pirates...
sea-travel?
I have a feeling this has already been brought up though.
I have a question which may have been brought up, but I can't seem to find it so here it goes.
About the magic in this game. How will we be able to learn it? Will we read books or raid tombs and what not? Or will we be able to make a really low-skill magician at character creation? I actually prefer learning magic in-game if it is actually possible at first.
I know that this won't be in the first alpha build, but any idea at all when will it be implemented?
Again if these questions have been asked already, I apologize.
Great game by the way. An extremely complex DF adventure mode is what I always wanted since I discovered Dwarf Fortress.
Wow :o you never know what you'll find when looking through forums like ...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:-[ (Coughs) Question after reading whole thread
.will you be able to upgrade units with better stuff like your one elite badass Cyclopes from simple loincloth to Plate Mail and gaint maul that fits him but is very hard to get. Or will he just have to get lucky with finding stuff on the battlefield?
In general, larger creatures don't wear armor, but Titans and Cyclopes and things do, and so you'll have to find, made or buy appropriately large armor.Sweeeett! Right now my mind is racing with images of a squad of Cyclopes and Giants in full plate mail wielding massive axes/mauls crashing into squads of terified milita. :D
In general, larger creatures don't wear armor, but Titans and Cyclopes and things do, and so you'll have to find, made or buy appropriately large armor.
This class is for enemies that are larger than just a single square.
Pretty exciting stuff, So population count, I'm assuming you can kill everyone in a village, town, city, etc. I tend to not want goblins to live.
In general, larger creatures don't wear armor, but Titans and Cyclopes and things do, and so you'll have to find, made or buy appropriately large armor.Sweeeett! Right now my mind is racing with images of a squad of Cyclopes and Giants in full plate mail wielding massive axes/mauls crashing into squads of terified milita. :D
Another question: in the first post you meantion Liches and Zombies but what about other undead like Wrights, Vampires, Wraiths and the others? I have to ask because as my name says I am a Lord of the Undead (well the incorporeal ones at least) ;D
...and if I want to outfit even my most gigantic of creatures with armour? If my dragons are ill-protected against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and I feel like pimping those scaly bastards? If I have a lonely titan, and his shins and feet are in constant agony? If I have money to burn and feel like fielding the world's first ever roc cataphracts?
What will I tell my wide-eyed children when they point to the screen and say "Why did the big-thingy have to go away, daddy?" WHAT WILL I TELL THEM?
(I don't have children. But I am a manchild. Does that count?)
QuoteThis class is for enemies that are larger than just a single square.
Please, make a kraken like in dungeon crawl!
Do you plan to make some creatures that are smaller than a square? (and that can be stacked)
Hail the Leprechaun Warlock!
who told you about the Kraken?...
Will ruins eventually return to life?Or, will outlaws use ruins as HQs?
Will ruins eventually return to wildlife? I would like to think so, assuming we play 100 years in. Also, a function that I would personally like to ask between making characters is to wait some time. Perhaps years, most likely our characters take on a peasant job or such during this time. I would hate having to wait day after day ingame for my population to rise just so I could recruit soldiers.
Woo!
Will armour/weapons be thicker/larger for bigger creatures? If a titan had a shield that was the same relative size, it would end up being several feet thick and utterly impenetrable to anything significantly smaller. Will this be the state of things, or will all shields be 3/8ths of an inch thick, for example? If size doesnt scale, I assume that large creatures would batter through gigantic armour like tin foil, because relative to them, that's exactly what it is.
Or, will outlaws use ruins as HQs?
That'd be cool too, but if not they should use tents or something burnable... yes burnable.... I like to burn said things. Burn anything wooden, please let me burn everything?
Well now I know that you can serve in an army. But how will it work? Will we have to follow the leader around wherever he goes? Will it be automatic(the game moves your character wherever the leader goes)? Will we be given orders (for example: Regroup near city X, raid village Y)? I assume it will get very boring having nothing to do while following your commander or if it's automatic waiting and doing nothing while the game moves your character (or squad if you're in charge of one). For example if I'm the lowest rank in an army without anyone under my command will I just have to mindlessly follow my squad leader, or will I get orders from my leader to go to city X or help raid village Y?
Oh, yes - you can only hold/wield things made for your size. And larger shields and armor are indeed thicker and much tougher, while large creatures will find it much easier to break through lesser armors :).
I actually think that starting a common foot soldier would make an excellent setting a tutorial.
There has been some discussion of being able to play a successor once you die, which implies that there are some options at game start. One of those options could be buying your own squad of soldiers so you start off semi-independent versus playing a successor from an old game or starting off as a new recruit.
I'd love to play as a free mercenary company leader who cares nothing about wars and loyalty.
Oh, yes - you can only hold/wield things made for your size. And larger shields and armor are indeed thicker and much tougher, while large creatures will find it much easier to break through lesser armors :).
Work-In-Progress and all that, but this makes me question one thing. How will things balance out? That makes it sound like a single giant (or similar creature), kitted out in decent gear, would be able to beat several human sized units in an even fight.
While you talk of fully kitted titans as a possibility, will they be absent most of the time due to lack of resources (small ratio of giants to smaller humanoids, metal working is expensive). That actually leads to my second question. Will majority of the armies be equipped semi-historically or hollywood style? That is, are majority of the units peasant levy types or knights in full gear?
I actually think that starting a common foot soldier would make an excellent setting a tutorial.
There has been some discussion of being able to play a successor once you die, which implies that there are some options at game start. One of those options could be buying your own squad of soldiers so you start off semi-independent versus playing a successor from an old game or starting off as a new recruit.
Seeing how this will be a medieval/fantasy setting, I'm fully expecting the ability to play as the head or subordinate of your own mercenary company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_companies) at some point down the road. Who says you have to suck up to the sovereigns?
Just a little hint of the history of the title of this game: It is latin for "The final argument of kings." It was inscribed on French cannons by the order of Louis XIV.
I agree - that's a great idea. I don't want to make it an explicit 'Tutorial', but I will certainly make it very easy to sign up in the army regardless of what civ you start off in, and make a clear suggestion to the player they do. Good thinking! As for starting conditions, I don't intend to let you start off with a squad of soldiers; either a continuation, or a new player. However, you choose your stats, your skills, and also have a significant level of choice over your starting items, too. I'm also debating allowing you to choose what kind of biome/climate zone you start in, depending on the kind of civilization you select (e.g. 'Nomadic' might give you desert, etc).
Seeing how this will be a medieval/fantasy setting, I'm fully expecting the ability to play as the head or subordinate of your own mercenary company at some point down the road. Who says you have to suck up to the sovereigns?
Yep, I'd definitely like that possible (and will probably exist before armies!)
I agree - that's a great idea. I don't want to make it an explicit 'Tutorial', but I will certainly make it very easy to sign up in the army regardless of what civ you start off in, and make a clear suggestion to the player they do. Good thinking! As for starting conditions, I don't intend to let you start off with a squad of soldiers; either a continuation, or a new player. However, you choose your stats, your skills, and also have a significant level of choice over your starting items, too. I'm also debating allowing you to choose what kind of biome/climate zone you start in, depending on the kind of civilization you select (e.g. 'Nomadic' might give you desert, etc).
If you randomize the starting biomes/conditions, then people will just restart the game until they get what they want.
e.g. For the game rogue, where starting stats are randomized, someone made a tool that restart the game until they are maxed out (or near). Ok, it takes a lot of time, but you could start the software the morning and then play your maxed-out guy back from work.
Indeed, I believe being a mercenary would be a bit more profitable as you can change sides and go to different wars, while being loyal to a kingdom could get you ranked up higher in said environment, you may run out of things to do, due to peace or otherwise. You could always hunt during this time, but what fun? Although I will still try to become king.
So in essence, I think being a mercenary if somehow implemented comes in. I think they should hire you for battles. Such as *We are planning the Battle of the Hill of Horror* And they would offer you, for this example, 1000 moneys. While the other guys you talked to before offered you 1200 moneys, you could go back and choose to work for the enemy in this case. Or will mercenaries become a semi-permanent job to the kingdom? Which would not be very fun in the merc's shoes. At least to me.
Another thing is, when peasants come to revolt, they won't have a lot of money to give in such cases, but in the kindness of my heart, I will accept their horrible sum of 5 moneys to liberate this village! Then with the good relations I have just gained, take a woman from their village, marry her, and become the King of the Village! Yes! Yes! I will die horribly trying to defend this village with little supplies! :)
So...the world is in a state of almost total, unceasing war? Is there any way to stop the wars? It may sound boring, but it would be interesting to play as a diplomat, if only to protect a kingdom, city or village that you control.
When is an alpha going to be released?
As a mercenary, you also should be able to hunt bandits for bounties if you aren't strong and/or don't have a big company. Also, if you abandon the army in the middle of the battle, you should expect a severe relationship penalty with the said army (and nation). Army commanders tend to get a little aggresive against deserters after all.
A good mercenary system is important since most players may try being a mercenary to build some capital for leading their own army.
Oh, and you should make earning money not so easy like most other roguelikes. Resources are the power in strategy games after all. Maybe make the player pay tax if he is a citizen or add buyable/rentable buildings.
This is pretty cool. I'm posting to keep an eye on this thread.
Wait... then everyone is broke?... But.... I wanted to kill the king and take his moneys on him... Sad...Well, most people try to become the king after they kill the king :D
But Power... I require...Then go raid one of those disturbingly common groups that are entrusted with some super-powered MacGuffin but are too cowardly use it and too incompetent to protect it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't wanna... The only weapon I need are my trusty fists.But Power... I require...Then go raid one of those disturbingly common groups that are entrusted with some super-powered MacGuffin but are too cowardly use it and too incompetent to protect it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wait... then everyone is broke?... But.... I wanted to kill the king and take his moneys on him... Sad...Well, most people try to become the king after they kill the king :D
I have a few suggestions about necromancy based on some other thoughts if you still haven't finished the magic\necromancy system.
-Having different kinds of raising dead. For example: a)Raising a mindless zombie with no abilities other than walk, hit and eat brain. b)Reanimating a corpse able to understand what you are saying and able to obey your commands. c)Making a zombie able to speak, not being oblivious of the world around it and able to inform you of what is happening on a distant part of a battle (other than sending a runner who can get himself killed, send a zombie). and d)Reanimating a dead person who still retains his memories and can continue on with his life or serve you in gratitude of you giving him life again.
-Like I mentioned before but the more advanced corpse raising methods can be used only by better necromancers and those who have practiced their methods for years. Say I'm a novice necromancer with not much knowledge of the act of raising the dead. I can only make a mindless zombie with no abilities. But a more advanced necromancer can reanimate a corpse with no effort and the zombie being unrecognizable from all the normal "living" people.
It would be great sending a zombie who can take an arrow or a sword in the head without feeling any pain to inform me or bring new orders to squad leaders to and from the far reaches of a battle instead of sending a runner who might get killed by a stray arrow or a dragon swooping by and breathing fire on the poor guy.
And about the alpha. Since you moved back the release date from before the end of 2011 to summer 2012, can we expect some features that wouldn't have been included in the first release date, or will we still have an alpha heavily based on combat with no NPCs?
Wait... then everyone is broke?... But.... I wanted to kill the king and take his moneys on him... Sad...Well, most people try to become the king after they kill the king :D
But Power... I require...Then go raid one of those disturbingly common groups that are entrusted with some super-powered MacGuffin but are too cowardly use it and too incompetent to protect it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm not sure if you've already answered this, but do you think if it would possible to implement a Multiplayer supported version, whether directly through the game or through an application like Hamachi?
If you can't, or choose not to dedicate any time to it until every possible other thing has been completed, tweaked and balanced, I won't shed a single tear.
Right now, the two things I care most about are not Multiplayer or in-game Politics.
They are Combat and Physics. THOSE are the two things I really hope can be perfected.
The focus of the first alpha; you should be able to wield weapons, don armor, find creatures, fight them, use bows, throw things, fall off cliffs, knock them back, sever their limbs, get thrown around the map, eat, drink, be blinded, swim... I think that's the full combat-related alpha 0.1 list.Don't forget find lots of pesky bugs and oversights.
Ah, of course, my first run will include finding out how falling works. I will kick one of every species I encounter off of a ledge. Then I will throw myself off of a ledge to experience the mechanics of falling.
Hmm... Will falling be instantaneous? I would weep tears of pure, liquid joy if it were possible to participate in a mid-air falling duel. Obviously the winner is fairly unimportant, you're both paste.
How would falling onto large creatures work? If a dragon or roc or some other large, flying animal passed beneath you as you fell, could you (in theory, at least), fall onto it's back and fly away? Same for horses passing on the horizontal. Grabbing a (not-too-fast) moving steed and swinging up would be waaaaay cool.
Don't forget find lots of pesky bugs and oversights.
;D
Looking forward to this alpha and care very little about the absence of multiplayer.
Edit: that was worded poorly, fixed.
How will stuff like NPC relations and loyalty work? Like in Crusader Kings 2, where every character has an opinion of another character?
Looking forward to playing the game. Posting to keep tracks of the thread.
Ah, of course, my first run will include finding out how falling works. I will kick one of every species I encounter off of a ledge. Then I will throw myself off of a ledge to experience the mechanics of falling.
Hmm... Will falling be instantaneous? I would weep tears of pure, liquid joy if it were possible to participate in a mid-air falling duel. Obviously the winner is fairly unimportant, you're both paste.
How would falling onto large creatures work? If a dragon or roc or some other large, flying animal passed beneath you as you fell, could you (in theory, at least), fall onto it's back and fly away? Same for horses passing on the horizontal. Grabbing a (not-too-fast) moving steed and swinging up would be waaaaay cool.
The first thing I would probably do in this game is ride a rhino, if possible.
And then direct it to a hill and jump off the rhino and skydive.
would it be possible for me to basically become a mass-murderer, ninja assasin?
I'd love that.
great, im gonna find the biggest mountain, jump down it with an enemy, kill him midair and pretending im riding his corpse down the mountain...
wait, can we use earth mages to create an pit under that unbreakable phalanx or shear of the top of something?
Kinda surprising how many players want to jump off a cliff and land on a creature or something. Then again, maybe not. This is Bay12 after all!
Will there be something like DF's Arena to test the combat system and have fun?
Bringing up the subject of the community, how easy would it be to mod this game? Somewhere around DF level?
And PLEASE make the game at least a bit moddable. I(and many others I presume) would want the game to get a bit more variety after playing for 16 hours a day. Not trying to offend or anything, but I don't think you can make every request of every player.
also, I'm happy you'll be able to be some kind of stealthy dude. I'd like to manipulate a government, rather than just invade it. slowly force it into being what I want it to be, without force.
It'd make for an interesting game.
Looks great. Can't wait to play it.
you'd better include those Greek fire type units!
because medieval flamethrowers are fun!
also, sorry if it's been asked, and assuming you can make armour out of animal hides, if you made armour out of, say, a dragon's hide, would it be much tougher than that of a wolf or something? possibly being fireproof, too? (not necesarrily YOU being fireproof, just the armour)
What will be the Cassus Bellis available to civs to formally declare full scale war? Will crusades be possible, against a hated civ or species?
Will elephants be used as war elephants?IIRC, yus.
and, IIRC, they will be able to run amok at some point, should they get frightened.
you'd better include those Greek fire type units!
because medieval flamethrowers are fun!
also, sorry if it's been asked, and assuming you can make armour out of animal hides, if you made armour out of, say, a dragon's hide, would it be much tougher than that of a wolf or something? possibly being fireproof, too? (not necesarrily YOU being fireproof, just the armour)
Planning to! Yes, you'll be able to make some things from hides, and things like dragon scales will be much stronger than wolf hides. To be honest, 99% of hides will be far worse than even basic metal armor; it'll only be things like dragon scales which are really worth considering (unless you simply have *no* other way of getting any armor). Something like that may very well end-up fireproof; I'm working on the fire mechanics at the moment, though I suspect they are going to have to wait for alpha 0.0.2 or beyond, not 0.0.1...
What about archer/peltast/assassin (light units)? Will they still benefit more from Steel than hide/leather? Don't you have a weight/encumbrance system?
How will strategic information work? Will spies be available?
That's too bad about the modding thing. However if I may ask since I've been following this along for a bit now. Why do you not have your own forums? Just wondering.
As well second question, assuming you cut off resources, could we starve/dehydrate out our enemies through sieges? I would like to think so if we ourselves are susceptible to it, that everyone else would be as well, it will also add to their routine of the day to go get food and water.
edit: Also temperature, I'd like to assume deserts make you thirsty quicker and polar caps pretty much freeze you til you are dead. Anything about how temperature will affect the adventurer?
The mountains in the world generation seem too much as straight lines leading north-south or east-west. Can you fix that? And also how big is the world in square kilometers?
Hm...if you are gonna implement spies ( for which I will love you and this game even more than I already do ) how will it work? Will there be conversations between NPCs, that you can stand next to, and listen?
Will we be able to make a larger or smaller world? I haven't seen anything about worldgen preferences in the thread or blog.
It'd be pretty cool if clothing had colours, so that you A: can tell your troops apart from the enemy, and get a decent overview of the battle situation, and B: could wear your very best black night stealthing kit, only to show up starkly against the marble floors of the local keep, instead of somehow still being crazy invisible.
Huh. I thought I'd actually already put up a blog entry about that. That might, therefore, be next week's blog entry, but there are quite a few world generation options (though world size isn't one of them!). For telling troops apart, it's tricky, since I need to a) have 'h' characters (i.e. humans) distinguishable by weapon, unit type, etc, but also have them according to what army they are in, and you can't show both in colour. I intend for the default to be army colour, and in the army view screen it will highlight units of different types, and there may also be an alternative viewing system to show you unit types too. As for clothing colour, that's an interesting idea, and I like it. I may just implement it!
Also, I've now decided to upload a development plan. Let me know what you think, especially in terms of things I intend to put in the first alpha and you think are maybe non-essential, and vice versa: http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/05/14/a-cunning-plan/
Kind of just hit me now, but someone mentioned elephants that they'd ride and you did not dispute it, so besides taming mounts, with enough skill will we be able to tame other things as well? I'd like to tame a wolf. OR BETTER YET. If we could kill parents and take the eggs/baby animals from their parents and they would love us forever! This also coincides my idea with time being able to wait for a year or so and also some sort of house or area to leave them in care. Yes love me forever, I want a panther army. *Sorry if it hasn't been mentioned but I would like it to be clear personally.*
Also, considering we will be able to order military around, could we also devise default pre-battle plans? So they wont appear randomly about us. Maybe just general stuff. Like where I want melee/ranged/other to be.
I don't think weapon kill sheets is really necessary, honestly. Kill tracking can wait, can't it?
PS. Nothing has square brackets. That's depressing.
Bravo, good sir! I like the presence of non-combat-y stuff in the first two versions. Now if I can die of sepsis before 0.05 and cholera before 0.10 I'll be in heaven!
Kind of just hit me now, but someone mentioned elephants that they'd ride and you did not dispute it, so besides taming mounts, with enough skill will we be able to tame other things as well? I'd like to tame a wolf. OR BETTER YET. If we could kill parents and take the eggs/baby animals from their parents and they would love us forever! This also coincides my idea with time being able to wait for a year or so and also some sort of house or area to leave them in care. Yes love me forever, I want a panther army. *Sorry if it hasn't been mentioned but I would like it to be clear personally.*
Also, considering we will be able to order military around, could we also devise default pre-battle plans? So they wont appear randomly about us. Maybe just general stuff. Like where I want melee/ranged/other to be.
I'm not sure about taming - I'm currently intending to add just horses and elephants in one of the early alphas. I had considered letting you handle larger and more deadly creatures; while I do intend to allow you to, say, chain a Dragon then try and release it in front of an enemy city, I'm not sure about taming. And, I'm afraid, URR is (for now) a panther-free world :(
Yes, absolutely re: battle plans. I have a draft screen drawn up for exactly that. If your army is marching on the world map and you enter the actual map for combat, depending on various factors you'll get more/less time to arrange your units before battle.I don't think weapon kill sheets is really necessary, honestly. Kill tracking can wait, can't it?
PS. Nothing has square brackets. That's depressing.
Agreed re: kill sheets. They're a factor for weapons being 'promoted' to noted/famed/legendary etc, but that can wait. Ah, yes, that's true about the square brackets, but the development page is explicitly a list of what I haven't yet done. If you saw the master list, about 95% of what I wanted for the first alpha is done!Bravo, good sir! I like the presence of non-combat-y stuff in the first two versions. Now if I can die of sepsis before 0.05 and cholera before 0.10 I'll be in heaven!
Thanks! I'm trying to stress the focus of the first few alphas is on the world and the UI, given how few of the actual game mechanics are in a finalized form yet. As for diseases and plagues... hmmm... they may be some way after 0.5, I'm afraid :(
An interesting thing Urist has over here.
While we can make camps and stuff like that, if we stay long enough and are prosperous enough, could we attract merchants and therefore eventually peasants that would start a town eventually. Probably asking too much but that would be awesome.
I read 'narcissism' as 'narcotics'An interesting thing Urist has over here.
While we can make camps and stuff like that, if we stay long enough and are prosperous enough, could we attract merchants and therefore eventually peasants that would start a town eventually. Probably asking too much but that would be awesome.
That sounds awesome. How would one go about making a city, anyway? I'd like to go Alexander the Great on the world, destroying nations, and building cities as a testament to my narcissism.
very important if you screwed those up. suddenly, you'd think Alexander the great was a drug cartel warlord.
Making cities out of camps? That would be awesome! However, I wouldn't want to be too involved with the development of a city. This is not a city-building game after all.
Saw a mention of arrows flying, and I want to ask something - if you're controlling an archer, will there be an option to make an arced shot or straight shot? Because in huge armies, you're going to have to be able to shoot arrows upward somewhat, unless you want to hit your buddies.
This is amazing, can you just show us a video about battles?
How will it be like?
Will there be arrows getting shot from both sides?
Will you hear war cries?
Can you make your own civilization?
So many questions!
While we can make camps and stuff like that, if we stay long enough and are prosperous enough, could we attract merchants and therefore eventually peasants that would start a town eventually. Probably asking too much but that would be awesome.
That sounds awesome. How would one go about making a city, anyway? I'd like to go Alexander the Great on the world, destroying nations, and building cities as a testament to my narcissism.
Making cities out of camps? That would be awesome! However, I wouldn't want to be too involved with the development of a city. This is not a city-building game after all.
I wasn't saying you would make the city, people would just sort of gather and make houses, wagons, trade stalls, going through a progress, you may come back to see a couple more stalls because your army is large enough they trade food or whatever, then a few may decide to live there over time, slowly starting a village or what not. Not building it yourself.
Yes, but if you don't do any of the building there should be someone who does and reports to you / gives you taxes to pay for protection.
At the beginning the city should indeed 'spontaneously' be build but if it grows it should elect a leader to handle more complicated stuff.
Perhaps investing in a city could be possible? Like you loot some place and give the mayor part of the gold so he builds a smithy or something you can then use.
edit: I keep forgetting this is a 'strategy roguelike'. I'm hoping for things which are probably not even intended to be implemented :P.
Yeah, that would make the game too frickin complicated. You could start a city, maybe run aspects of it, but to go on the warpath and do other stuff, you leave the city in the hands of...anyone you want really. Like setting up governors.
As this is not a sim city game, I assume there will be some degree of feudalism. How much effort are you going to put into feudal relations? Can we expect barons under dukes under kings etc. or just one king and dozens of mayors?
Considering the first Alpha isn't even out yet it's to be expected that people's imaginations take a wild turn here and there. At least my mind tends to get more focused once I have a tangible framework to look at.
EDIT: Shit, wait, I meant to say something useful as well. Uh.. oh yeah... this was an idea I had after reading about blood effects, but would it be possible to quaff the relevant juices of our foes/plants/etc, for various awesome effects. I'm thinking less of healing potions than hallucinogenic and potentially magically-reality-altering enhancers.
Saw a mention of arrows flying, and I want to ask something - if you're controlling an archer, will there be an option to make an arced shot or straight shot? Because in huge armies, you're going to have to be able to shoot arrows upward somewhat, unless you want to hit your buddies.
*Thunk* *Thunk* *Thunk* It was only after the first three spearmen fell that I remembered to point -up- a little.
Since there is talk about cities being built, what about being destroyed/burned/whatever? Will there be weapons of mass destruction? Maybe not nuclear bombs or anything, but cannons/gunpowder/explosive barrels or something. Maybe different civilizations are on a different technological development level. Something like one civilization using muskets and cannons, and another using swords and axes. We all know the Chinese had gunpowder and fireworks much before it reached Europe in the medieval era.
Personally I'm against firearms in medieval games but I am of course not the dev. You don't need firearms to completely destroy a city anyway, look at what the Romans did to Carthage.
Also how will languages work? Will it be all gibberish when you speak to someone if you don't know their language, or will you not be able to speak to them at all? Or understanding some words depending on how good you are with their language (example: XXX XXXXXX XXXX giant XXXX XXXXXXX XXXXX settlement).
Edit:Can you actually make money translating intercepted messages in times of war if you're a linguist or something?
Hmm. Oh wise and mighty dev, you say "very few", but may I suggest instead - "all of them"?
Perhaps it'd raise the rate of "accidentally drank the wrong thing and now I'm rerolling my character", but I'd like to see the quaffing of many, many things, most of which will be useless and icky.
Also, a lot of the time, rulers have sent off conquerors with the promise that anything they can conquer in the name of the king, they get to keep. I think it'd be appropriate to be able to establish settlements earlier than "absolute ruler" status. Cortez and his (arguably) less successful cousin both raised several towns and forts in their conquest.
Since there is talk about cities being built, what about being destroyed/burned/whatever? Will there be weapons of mass destruction? Maybe not nuclear bombs or anything, but cannons/gunpowder/explosive barrels or something. Maybe different civilizations are on a different technological development level. Something like one civilization using muskets and cannons, and another using swords and axes. We all know the Chinese had gunpowder and fireworks much before it reached Europe in the medieval era.Personally I'm against firearms in medieval games but I am of course not the dev. You don't need firearms to completely destroy a city anyway, look at what the Romans did to Carthage.
I'm not yet sure how technology and technological level is going to work. I think there will be explosives, but they will be few and far between, and will likely be used to destroy walls and undermine etc, rather than in firearms. Firearms are definitely not going to exist (though, POSSIBLY, very very basic ones might - not sure). I don't like the idea of the achronological settings much 'fantasy' has, and since I'm trying to make the game explicitly not high fantasy, but rather medieval/mythology (see: removal of Elves/Dwarves, though the latter may get in as a species to recruit, Norse-dwarf-style), I might allow the development of technology. That's still in the very early stages, though.Also how will languages work? Will it be all gibberish when you speak to someone if you don't know their language, or will you not be able to speak to them at all? Or understanding some words depending on how good you are with their language (example: XXX XXXXXX XXXX giant XXXX XXXXXXX XXXXX settlement).
Edit:Can you actually make money translating intercepted messages in times of war if you're a linguist or something?
It will probably be like that, yes - when you talk to someone, a random selection of their words will be understood, and that selection will always stay the same when you talk to them (so you can't just endlessly talk to them and figure out what they say!). The greater your grasp of the language, the more you understand. Re: edit: interesting idea. I like it. Consider it in.
I'm not yet sure how technology and technological level is going to work. I think there will be explosives, but they will be few and far between, and will likely be used to destroy walls and undermine etc, rather than in firearms. Firearms are definitely not going to exist (though, POSSIBLY, very very basic ones might - not sure). I don't like the idea of the achronological settings much 'fantasy' has, and since I'm trying to make the game explicitly not high fantasy, but rather medieval/mythology (see: removal of Elves/Dwarves, though the latter may get in as a species to recruit, Norse-dwarf-style), I might allow the development of technology. That's still in the very early stages, though.
beating someone to death with a kitten that no longer has an unbroken bone? yes please!
please!
Niiice. It's the little things that make itinerant characters possible that really add value to a game. I fully intend to start a war by purposefully mis-translating things.
Ever read The History of the Runestaff, by Michael Moorcock? It's all pretty low fantasy (if you ignore the eponymous object), but the elite soldiers of the "good guys" have swords and fire lances (super-early spear-mounted guns/flamethrowers) . Everyone else is still going at it with swords, though. I'd recommend giving that a read. There's only about 100 years between the development of the fire lance and the cannon, and it sits firmly in the 1200s.
A little while ago I posted something in the 'games you wish existed thread' about a medieval game where all information had to be collected personally or by one of your subordinates (unless they are common knowledge). Someone posted the following and I just thought that some of it might be something I'd like to see in your game.
...
So my question is, how close will is the above post to the ideal completed version of your game?
This is with the player being the leader of a primarily political power, although leading an army would still be an option (you can send your subordinates to lead an army while you stay at home right?).
Note that the quoted post has nothing to do with your game or any roguelike/ASCII game at all.
One thing, capture balls, magical capture balls, gotta catch them all. No no, just kidding.
But hey, asking about destruction, personally, I'd like to be able to throw people, if I throw them hard enough, through windows, and maybe even wooden houses, and if I were to throw them off a cliff, maybe break a tree or the roof of a straw hut below. Maybe I'm asking a bit much, but I'd like to see a little destructibility, even if its small if we were to do crazy things like jump off a cliff and plummet into a house below, or throwing people into it, or the simple throwing a stone through someone's window cause we really just don't like them.
Again because of this, a bit of assassin's creed goes a bit of a way I suppose, I'm not saying we need the hidden blades and gadgets, but it would be nice, if people checked you for weapons if you went into a place like a castle. Unless you have rights of a nobleman or otherwise, I would want to make it so people can not just waltz up to the king and stab him. The guards and the king himself would provide a challenge to your unarmored, nonweaponised body. However also give a bit of sneaking, so maybe, just maybe you can sneak a vial of poison, or a dagger, or something small in for such situations.
Also, again personal request, I would like to be able to cuddle things mid-fight. Yes I want to cuddle a bleeding lion, leave me alone!
Furthering my destruction asking, if we throw a living thing into another living thing, i want the possibility of break both their bones, or at least hurting them both. Or even if they are dead, if I swing them around, I would like to think their arm would still break.
when this comes out, the first thing I'm gonna do when I master the controls is grab the cutest animal that is nearby, and snap every bone in it's body, and use it as some sort of weapon, if I can.
beating someone to death with a kitten that no longer has an unbroken bone? yes please!
please!
Ooh, this seems cool. Watching this.
Interesting. Can a unit face diagonally, or just the 4 cardinal directions?
Will there be an awareness attribute as to sense what is behind you?
How will we be able to see other creatures field of view?
Haha - I'm afraid there are very few species in the 0.0.1 planned (currently 3, but maybe 4) and none of them are particularly adorable. Which is not to say bones can't be broken...well, a wolf will do, for now...
I have recently found this (just now, in fact) and I am, suffice to say, extremely excited for this project.
I would like to ask, will you be able to command forces from a sort of overview map? It could help visualize where your forces will go and such.
no there isn't, but I am trying to figure out a way to introduce sound in some wayHow about you do it in a similar way as it has been done in Catacylsm (the roguelike one)? When someone behind your back is making a noise, a "?" mark appears near the source. Or you could add a panel "Hearing" and make messages like "you hear a woman scream south-west" or something.
Quoteno there isn't, but I am trying to figure out a way to introduce sound in some wayHow about you do it in a similar way as it has been done in Catacylsm (the roguelike one)? When someone behind your back is making a noise, a "?" mark appears near the source. Or you could add a panel "Hearing" and make messages like "you hear a woman scream south-west" or something.
Are there any totally original races? It's always nice to have some kind of distinguishable race that people identify games with, or are just memorable, much like the Bronze colossus, fluffy wambler (and several cave creatures) of DF, or goombas and koopas of Mario, or various other things. They don't have to be completely off the rocker weird, just unique.I would like Lizardmen and not crappy ones that look like its mother was a garden lizard but ones that had crocs for ancestors. 8)
I have recently found this (just now, in fact) and I am, suffice to say, extremely excited for this project.
I would like to ask, will you be able to command forces from a sort of overview map? It could help visualize where your forces will go and such.
I'd like to see this, but retaining the delay of sent or received messages. Not like all of the RTSs out there where your army magically knows where you want them to go.
Also, some questions and suggestions for the dev.
Will combat be just mauling somebody to death by hitting their arms/torso/whatever, or will there be some lethal blows and counterattacks? I would like to see some legendary fighter just plowing through the battlefield with two swords and killing everybody in one lethal hit. And some counterattacking. Something like this
-The swordsman slashes at your head
-You block and counterstrike
-You stab the swordsman through the forehead and into the brain
-The swordsman dies
And some mounted movement. My best idea is horses or other faster than man creatures would take less than a turn to move. Say a rider should take half a turn to move one square while you and other non-mounted people take one. Attacking would also take one turn. So now mounted people can move two squares and attack in two turns (or move one square, attack, and then move one more square), while people on foot can only move one square and attack. This half a turn movement eliminates the cavalry becoming separated from each other while charging. All in all if horsemen are moving slowly (walking) they would take one turn to move one square, and while charging they take half a turn. And now with facing certain directions you can eliminate cavalry from going to somebody, hitting them and then returning back without giving their opponent a chance to fight back if he manages to dodge the attack. You can make charging cavalry take one turn to start facing backwards before they start moving. If this was your idea also, then I am most pleased with this mechanic. If not, can you explain how it's going to work because I'm curious?
Quoteno there isn't, but I am trying to figure out a way to introduce sound in some wayHow about you do it in a similar way as it has been done in Catacylsm (the roguelike one)? When someone behind your back is making a noise, a "?" mark appears near the source. Or you could add a panel "Hearing" and make messages like "you hear a woman scream south-west" or something.
I like the Cataclysm-like idea. Imagine what something like the Teutoburg Ambush would feel like. The ? would begin to cause more fear than a &, at least for me. With the panel though, I think we're going to be having to receive a good bit of information anyways. It's a fine idea, but I think things may start to get a bit cluttered (though I'm not sure how things look anyways, so there may very well be plenty of room for a hearing panel. If there is, that is definitely a solid idea in my opinion).
And adding on to the ? idea, there could be some way to differentiate between what you think may be friend and foe. It wouldn't be 100% accurate though. Maybe have it depend on what intel you have, your terrain, etc. Though I'm no programmer, so that may be a little too much work.
Are there any totally original races? It's always nice to have some kind of distinguishable race that people identify games with, or are just memorable, much like the Bronze colossus, fluffy wambler (and several cave creatures) of DF, or goombas and koopas of Mario, or various other things. They don't have to be completely off the rocker weird, just unique.
A hearing pannel could be cluttering since not many players would pay attention to it. A "?" mark popping out when you hear about something that's not in your line of sight would be better. Maybe the "?" mark could be colored to give the player an idea about the loudness of the sound. For example, white could be used for quiet things like a kobold sneaking around and red could be used for loud things like a magical earthquake or something. An earthquake would generate a big line of question marks on the map if the player isn't looking at that direction. That would really add some "What the hell? My army is getting flanked by skirmishers! *turns around* OMGEARTHQUAKEWTFFACEPALM" moments for the game.
I don't know how that would be implemented. Everything has a "loudness" value or something? I'm no programmer and I'm just throwing some ideas around.
If you are going to add a key that enables the player to look at tiles, (and since it's roguelike you are going to have to do it even with tilesets) players could look at ? tiles and it would give some ideas to the player. Like "This is a howling sound. You don't know what it is." and if you have the required skill (I don't know, forest lore?) it will be like "This is a screaming sound. It sounds like it's a wolf"
Again, just brainstorming.
A skill or some kind of a modifier for hearing and sneaking is essential too.
I would like Lizardmen and not crappy ones that look like its mother was a garden lizard but ones that had crocs for ancestors. 8)
Excited for stealth. Being able to sneak up behind people and stab (wherever I WANT to stab them - Take THAT, Skyrim) sounds like it's going to be a blast.
a subset of the undead, which is a kind of walking siege weapon.
Will there be things like poisons in the game? I'd hope for the standard things that are more common, like numbness, dizzyness, and vomiting from regular things (and not just "you slowly lose health and get weaker") to extremely rare, but insane poisons (that you can utilize) that do things like making your eyes bleed, your limbs changing to stone or such (which would be interesting, harder to destroy, but it encumbers you and you can't use it very well, with a cure obviously) or even turning you slowly into some kind of abomination/other species. All of these things would be very interesting, I'd hope to see something like them (like the poisons of a demon commander or something.)
NOOOOOOO!!!! :'(I would like Lizardmen and not crappy ones that look like its mother was a garden lizard but ones that had crocs for ancestors. 8)
There were lizardmen, but I'm afraid they're gone! :(
In the future, do you plan to make it so the world generator is capable of generating high, low and realistic worlds? High fantasy would have all the magicky stuff, low fantasy would have it as well but it would be either very rare or a secret, and realistic could be ASCII mount&blade.I like this idea quite a bit, perhaps even check boxes for magic, different sentient races, or such?
I support the pro-realism movement. And ... ASCII Mount & Blade? My body is ready.Even if a "realism mode" doesn't become part of the vanilla game, I'm sure that some modder(s) (most likely from these forums) will make it happen.
Low-fantasy and reasonably realistic settings are my favorite.
The dev has already said that he does not intend to put any effort into making the game moddable. It's somewhere in this thread.I support the pro-realism movement. And ... ASCII Mount & Blade? My body is ready.Even if a "realism mode" doesn't become part of the vanilla game, I'm sure that some modder(s) (most likely from these forums) will make it happen.
Low-fantasy and reasonably realistic settings are my favorite.
Quotea subset of the undead, which is a kind of walking siege weapon.
Kamikaze zombies? :D
Great, thanks for the response!
Anyways, I have a question on recruiting; will I be able to send out a few of my men, or devote a few men to go out and recruit soldiers instead of me doing it directly? In such a way that I could tell men to recruit X amount of spearmen from X village?
Secondly, will you be able to encamp somewhere, and fortify it? Like, say I have a large group of men camped in some forest, will I be able to make them build up dirt walls and palisades, set up watchtowers and tents, and so on? It'd be interesting to have a base where I can train recruits or build up reserves while I go on marauding.
EDIT: Ah, I should've read more of the thread before posting. Found the answers there. :p
Will there be things like poisons in the game? I'd hope for the standard things that are more common, like numbness, dizzyness, and vomiting from regular things (and not just "you slowly lose health and get weaker") to extremely rare, but insane poisons (that you can utilize) that do things like making your eyes bleed, your limbs changing to stone or such (which would be interesting, harder to destroy, but it encumbers you and you can't use it very well, with a cure obviously) or even turning you slowly into some kind of abomination/other species. All of these things would be very interesting, I'd hope to see something like them (like the poisons of a demon commander or something.)
I'm glad you liked the examining sounds idea :) Most games give the sounds as a message and if the player doesn't care about the sounds at that moment (if he is fightining for example) it's just clutter. It would also make lore skills more essential since players can recognize the sound creatures make.
By the way, you are building a very good foundation for the game. UI is very neat and all these things like view options doesn't even clutter the screen. I don't know how you did all this without cluttering the screen. Maybe I just have low UI standarts after all the time I spent playing DF :PWill there be things like poisons in the game? I'd hope for the standard things that are more common, like numbness, dizzyness, and vomiting from regular things (and not just "you slowly lose health and get weaker") to extremely rare, but insane poisons (that you can utilize) that do things like making your eyes bleed, your limbs changing to stone or such (which would be interesting, harder to destroy, but it encumbers you and you can't use it very well, with a cure obviously) or even turning you slowly into some kind of abomination/other species. All of these things would be very interesting, I'd hope to see something like them (like the poisons of a demon commander or something.)
I like the limbs changing into stone idea. Imagine playing as a hand-to-hand character who drinks potions to turn his hands to stone... KICKASS!
So I saw this thread months ago. Then I found out about Ultima Online. Now every time someone mentions it, I think about this thread. How similar are they?
Also what is this? I know there's an OP but it's quite a long thread and things have surely changed since then. So, what do?
[Lots of realism questions]:
Well, there's currently two options in the world generation screen called 'Legendary Creatures' and 'Intelligent Creatures'. The former increase Dragons, Hydrae etc and the latter Cyclopes, Minotaurs, etc (and both from 'None' to 'Abundant'), so if you want, you can set both to 'None'. Even on Abundant, they are still pretty rare, as the idea is that their existence is largely unknown and they have to be sought out. So, if you set both to None, then you'll get realism (as Demonic/Undeads will also be reduced to 0), but anything above the 'None' settings will allow them to be generated. Additionally, the age of the world (from 'Nascent' to 'Ancient') will also have an effect; brand new worlds will have more demonic creatures, for instance, while old worlds will have more history and therefore more undead forces. But, again, setting those to 0 will eliminate them, if you'd prefer, but I'll definitely keep the mythology generations around!
[Lots of realism questions]:
Well, there's currently two options in the world generation screen called 'Legendary Creatures' and 'Intelligent Creatures'. The former increase Dragons, Hydrae etc and the latter Cyclopes, Minotaurs, etc (and both from 'None' to 'Abundant'), so if you want, you can set both to 'None'. Even on Abundant, they are still pretty rare, as the idea is that their existence is largely unknown and they have to be sought out. So, if you set both to None, then you'll get realism (as Demonic/Undeads will also be reduced to 0), but anything above the 'None' settings will allow them to be generated. Additionally, the age of the world (from 'Nascent' to 'Ancient') will also have an effect; brand new worlds will have more demonic creatures, for instance, while old worlds will have more history and therefore more undead forces. But, again, setting those to 0 will eliminate them, if you'd prefer, but I'll definitely keep the mythology generations around!
Will there also be options for magic like this?
Holy [CENSORED], how did I never see this?Are you blind? :P
Holy [CENSORED], how did I never see this?
This game is Moving along great I wish I had some money to donate but I dont. :'(
So all I can say is that when its first released I'll be downloading it in three seconds after Im aware its up.Holy [CENSORED], how did I never see this?Are you blind? :P
I like the trees and climbing very much, although the precise climbing mechanics were a little hard to follow.
Three questions though:
1)Will the would you make weapons out of have an impact on it's properties? For example a Yew longbow versus a pine or Oak longbow.
2) Will locally available tress affect a cultures weapon choices? For example if there are lots of oak nearby but no yew they might tend toward shields, shillelaghs and quarterstaffs but not use longbows as heavily?
3)What affects climbing speed?
Wait, you can climb a dragon's leg?
So me (a human) would climb as fast I can walk? This seems odd to me. I know I can't climb a ladder as fast I can walk an equivalent distance, and presumably cliffs and dragon legs are harder to climb than a wooden ladder.
I agree that the climbing mechanics are probably very intuitive, I just couldn't follow them in blog form.
are we going to have to be human, or can we be from different species? (I think this has already been asked)
also, about your modding (or probable lack thereof), hand it over to an internet community, and there WILL be mods.
Another few questions among many,
about an eating system-
1) Will there be one in the first version?
2) If so, will meat be edible raw? or will you need to cook it into something?
3) would there be more recipes available as your skill gets better?
4) would you be able to create your own recipes?
about writing-
1) Would there be books throughout the land in the first version, with brief randomly generated descriptions of what they are?
2) would you be able to write your own?
3) would you be able to leaves notes to yourself in certain areas, like near a cave reminding you of something, and would there be randomly generated notes from "adventurers" of other races (or your own) where in front of a large cave (or dungeon) giving a hint about what is inside like enemies, loot, and traps? Where if it's in another language you can try to translate it but may screw up, telling you about a different enemy that isn't there, or wrong location of trap, OR getting it translated by a member of your party?
Wait, you can climb a dragon's leg?
The blog post mentions climbing creatures as a dev goal of 0.2, and gives dragons as an example of a big creature which you won't be able to hit everywhere from the ground. I think the two go hand in hand.
Excited for the demo! Glad to see this is coming along nicely! :D
So me (a human) would climb as fast I can walk? This seems odd to me. I know I can't climb a ladder as fast I can walk an equivalent distance, and presumably cliffs and dragon legs are harder to climb than a wooden ladder.
I agree that the climbing mechanics are probably very intuitive, I just couldn't follow them in blog form.
Hmm. Good point. Maybe you should be default climb one square every other turn?
Hmm. Good point. Maybe you should be default climb one square every other turn?
I'm sure that's what's going to happen if your game catches enough attention (and it will) since we are talking about Bay 12 community. If I had to bet for the first mod, I would bet for a mod that adds dwarves as a playable race. If the game had any real graphics, we would see a mod that removes all the censors from the game like 2 seconds after it's release.I'm confident because unless you do the thing of making unique coding that no-one else understands, someone out there will rip it to shreds, find out what does what, and change something, it may just be an unofficial patch, or it may add other creatures, odds are, it will be modded.are we going to have to be human, or can we be from different species? (I think this has already been asked)
also, about your modding (or probable lack thereof), hand it over to an internet community, and there WILL be mods.
Humans only; and you're very confident, but I have to intention of making the code open, nor indeed making the code particularly clear (in fact, it may even be deliberately obfuscated, since I don't want all game mechanics to be transparent). If people STILL mess around with it, then I guess they deserve to mod it :)
I'm sure that's what's going to happen if your game catches enough attention (and it will) since we are talking about Bay 12 community. If I had to bet for the first mod, I would bet for a mod that adds dwarves as a playable race. If the game had any real graphics, we would see a mod that removes all the censors from the game like 2 seconds after it's release.I'm confident because unless you do the thing of making unique coding that no-one else understands, someone out there will rip it to shreds, find out what does what, and change something, it may just be an unofficial patch, or it may add other creatures, odds are, it will be modded.are we going to have to be human, or can we be from different species? (I think this has already been asked)
also, about your modding (or probable lack thereof), hand it over to an internet community, and there WILL be mods.
Humans only; and you're very confident, but I have to intention of making the code open, nor indeed making the code particularly clear (in fact, it may even be deliberately obfuscated, since I don't want all game mechanics to be transparent). If people STILL mess around with it, then I guess they deserve to mod it :)
I laughed so hard at that, that I woke my family up. :D
And then Deon would add genitals.
So me (a human) would climb as fast I can walk? This seems odd to me. I know I can't climb a ladder as fast I can walk an equivalent distance, and presumably cliffs and dragon legs are harder to climb than a wooden ladder.
I agree that the climbing mechanics are probably very intuitive, I just couldn't follow them in blog form.
Hmm. Good point. Maybe you should be default climb one square every other turn?
What about making the climbing speed increase as you increase your climbing skill and dexterity? And the failure rate should decrease and monsters should have trouble with getting you off them as you get more skilled. Adding a climbing skill is essential for assassin characters. I don't expect a fragile magician to climb onto dragons and I expect archers to be better at climbing hills.
Hmm. Good point. Maybe you should be default climb one square every other turn?
Just have the game advance 2 "turns" whenever you make a climbing move?
I'm confident because unless you do the thing of making unique coding that no-one else understands, someone out there will rip it to shreds, find out what does what, and change something, it may just be an unofficial patch, or it may add other creatures, odds are, it will be modded.I'm sure that's what's going to happen if your game catches enough attention (and it will) since we are talking about Bay 12 community. If I had to bet for the first mod, I would bet for a mod that adds dwarves as a playable race. If the game had any real graphics, we would see a mod that removes all the censors from the game like 2 seconds after it's release.
I laughed so hard at that, that I woke my family up. :D
And then Deon would add genitals.
Wow. One of the remaining technical issues was the time it takes to load maps with lots of z levels, like mountains. But now... I've just sped it up by ~95%+, because I discovered something deeply, DEEPLY stupid about the way it was previously being done. Awesome. It now takes a few seconds for even the tallest mountains!
*high five*
It has been said that only coding can make you feel so good about realizing how stupid you've been. I don't remember WHO said it, but it's certainly true enough that it stuck with me.
Heh. Definitely. Few things are as purely, un-equivocally enjoyable as realising where you've been going wrong, and that you know how to fix it.
Any chance you can elaborate on the specifics? I might add z-levels into my game eventually.
Also, I was wondering if you could talk about multi-tile creature pathfinding? How does that work (from a programming perspective)?
Questions:
1)Eventually can you kidnap people and if they are important enough will search & rescure parties be sent out, like kidnap a princess in stereotypical Villain style.
2)Will your actions change how people think of you, like having monsters and raiding & pillaging will make people think your some Demon Lord or something, and if so will units be more inclinded to join you if your more Evil/Good (Demonic creatures flock to you when your really evil. And when your really good maybe angles come join you?)
I haven't been this excited for something since I learned how to emulate human emotion.Yeah agreed, I check the development plan everyday and jump with joy eveytime I see one of the things has been finished. :P
I haven't been this excited for something since I learned how to emulate human emotion.Also, sigged.
I haven't been this excited for something since I learned how to emulate human emotion.Yeah agreed, I check the development plan everyday and jump with joy eveytime I see one of the things has been finished. :P
Gods, do they walk among us?
Eagerly awaiting this release! :D
Both a compliment and a question. Will the gods of the world be able to be interacted with?
new world types that can be generated (like an ice age pangaea, or a scorching hot island chain, or similar) :).
new world types that can be generated (like an ice age pangaea, or a scorching hot island chain, or similar) :).
Will this mean that some time in the future, animals will spawn dependent on climate(i.e. predominant yeti & mammoth for ice age, along with civilization decisions being impacted by it;per say, a emphasis on leather armor more than metal to keep people from dying of cold and such?).
With every update, I think of this game as being THE game. Loving it more and more!
:(
To bad for me, I will have no internet access for July, I will have to wait August to hunt these bugs/dragons.
new world types that can be generated (like an ice age pangaea, or a scorching hot island chain, or similar) :).
Will this mean that some time in the future, animals will spawn dependent on climate(i.e. predominant yeti & mammoth for ice age, along with civilization decisions being impacted by it;per say, a emphasis on leather armor more than metal to keep people from dying of cold and such?).
With every update, I think of this game as being THE game. Loving it more and more!
I think he already said that creatures are tied to climates in some way, and at least sentient creatures will be hard to persuade to come along without you if they don't like the place.
I've been watching this since the beginning and I'm looking forward to the first alpha. However, the rivers are a bit of a mess in the cartography update. They really don't seem to travel to the coasts, and while rivers can indeed dry up before they reach the sea, the phenomenon seems far too prevalent here.
I'm more about the rogue-like combat, anyway. It's just an observation.
Dammit URR, I saw that you had posted and assumed it was the release! I'm very disappointed now.
On the other hand, continents looks cool, and I like the contrast with the DF top level maps.
Only 7 days, at max! I am incredibly excited now, needless to say.
Anyways, thoughts on technological progression? Could I, perhaps, be in a world where they only discovered stone tools and wood shacks? Or could I show up in a place full of steel armor and castles?
However, the rivers really don't seem to travel to the coasts, and while rivers can indeed dry up before they reach the sea, the phenomenon seems far too prevalent here.
Interesting; do you mean those that terminate in open land, as it were, or those that reach another mountain or whatever then stop? A lot of rivers stop because they reach higher ground and cannot find a way around, though I suppose the maximum river length value could be upped for some climates. Also, for rivers to combine they need to meet a pretty specific set of conditions; in a later version I'd like to open those requirements up and get more combining, but that would require a lot more map generation work.
I know you said earlier that other creatures can have opinions of you but is it possible to invite intrigue based on these opinions for various nefarious purposes? Say you are commanding a large army can you go all Roman Civil War style by using the loyalty of your soldiers to take over the current head of state and declare yourself dictator/imperator?
Or perhaps if you are in charge of a squad or maybe just friends with fellow soldiers that you can break away from a losing army and defect or become bandits?
I'm just wondering how much of a relationship you can have with other creatures, is it abstracted so it's based on general civ style (so all of a civ's creatures will react to you in the same way) or is it personal(or mixture) so you can cause civil wars and political intrigue or perhaps go Robin Hood style to befriend a village while raiding the empire it is part of?
I've been meaning to ask this for a long time, but I kept forgetting. If we desert from the army we are serving in, will we be chased and executed like animals, or will all be forgiven. You could add a lot more depth to the game if you make it possible to chase deserters of your army and vice versa.
Well, when a river meets highland, it should pool into a lake, till the water can find a way down to the sea. Rivers stretching from one mountain to another look a little odd. You'd typically at least see an inland sea somewhere between the two river sources.
Looking foward to it! :D
I... Don't really have anything more constructive to say, sadly. I haven't been following the thread all that closely.
(Seriously, so many posts!)
That means I'm not quite sure what's actually planned for the release, either, so I'll be in for some surprises. :)
Oh good I am taking a little mini-vacation and you are releasing it on a date where I can spend much time playing it, judging it, then judging you by it, oh yes, good times indeed. P.S. Wont really judge you based on a game you released.
release now and we will help you hunt =)
It may only be the eighth but I keep refreshing the download page!
The wait is killing me.
Hmm...will test this... 8)
Is it out yet?
Is it out yet?
Is it out yet?
Is it out yet?
I'm not sure what timezone you're in, but in my part of the world you have approximately 34 minutes left if you wish to release it on the 9th... ;) Just sayin'.
OnO
Originally, that was going to be the entirety of my post, but then I felt that it was something of a waste of space to only type a single emoticon of three characters. It kinda bugs me when the only thing somebody contributes to a conversation is half a thought or less, and I'm well aware that not only is it a common pet peeve for forumites, but on many forums I'd face disciplinary action for such lazy posting. Thus, I elected to put a bit more effort into my post, for even if it still fails to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way, at least I wasted the extra four seconds of your life that it took you to read this.
first game:
explored entire game map and found no city '.
Looked inventory, weapons, and that's' crashed
ehm...i have not take the screen sorry.. But i have start another game and no crash with the inventory....
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60806, in <module>
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53601, in place_menu
NameError: global name 'quit' is not defined
Created a character, spent the points and noticed that the "shift to increment by 10" didn't seem to increment by 10
Created a character, spent the points and noticed that the "shift to increment by 10" didn't seem to increment by 10 , then once in the world i walked around and was attacked by a wolf that my character killed by hitting it on the head repeatedly.
Then walking around a bit more i found a copper greave, didn't found on how to check if it was any better than my equipment (i didn't read anything for that 1st run, just quickly giving a look) than proceeding to walk west.
After a while a message appeared with a "loading map", and once it seemed to complete i was back to desktop without a error message, was playing windowed with the 10x10 tileset as the 12x12 was making the window too big for my monitor resolution.
Then i started the game again and noticed it didn't saved anything (probably my bad for not having saved manually after my character appeared in that world) , so i clicked on Quit and it crashed, this time with a log :QuoteTraceback (most recent call last):
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60806, in <module>
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53601, in place_menu
NameError: global name 'quit' is not defined
Whee!
Started a new game, and wandered around a bit while my combat log filled up with "A male dragon attacks a yew tree!" notifications. He murdered a fair bit of the forest before I found him and what appeared to be his chums. After taking a look at him, I went to check out his species information and crashed the game.Spoiler: URR v010.exe.txt (click to show/hide)
Now to see if I can go smack that tree-hating dragon upside the head!!
In my first ever game of DF, I was killed by a wolf.
Happily, your game has blessed me in the same manner. Liking it so far!
I was not able to get it working on Wine, but it works on my XP fine, until I exited. The log is:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60806, in <module>
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53578, in place_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53781, in gender_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 54167, in stats_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 58873, in skills_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 58947, in sure_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 59011, in name_menu1
File "alphatime.pyw", line 59250, in name_menu2
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60624, in world_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53133, in play_game
File "alphatime.pyw", line 46936, in handle_keys
NameError: global name 'quit' is not defined
Also I kept getting messages about a Dragon attacking trees, but I never saw it.
I killed the first wolf I came across just in time for his friend to come over and finish me off.
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60806, in <module>
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53601, in place_menu
NameError: global name 'quit' is not defined
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60806, in <module>
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53595, in place_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 41570, in options_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53578, in place_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53781, in gender_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 54167, in stats_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 58873, in skills_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 58947, in sure_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 59011, in name_menu1
File "alphatime.pyw", line 59250, in name_menu2
File "alphatime.pyw", line 60624, in world_menu
File "alphatime.pyw", line 53133, in play_game
File "alphatime.pyw", line 46922, in handle_keys
ValueError: chr() arg not in range(256)
I was fighting a cyclops, and this error occurred See Logfile C:/(where it is located)/URR v10.exe.log
Oooh, I crashed it but this time I don't know what I did (and didn't get an errorlog.)
After the dragon ripped my arm off, I decided that discretion was the better part of valor and tried running away. Fortunately, I'd messed up its legs pretty good, so we limped away at about the same rate, but it had to knock over trees to follow (which was fun to watch.) I ran south into a new chunk, and after it loaded I kept running because, y'know, dragon. A few steps later I ran face first into a wolf, which further mauled my left foot. I took a couple shambling steps to the right and then the game crashed with the generic Windows "URR has stopped working" message.
Is there any particular reason why Look and Inventory are mapped to capital letters? I want to do those things pretty frequently, and it's sort of annoying to push shift every time.
Its enjoyable, a lot of work has obviously gone into this, I crashed again when fleeing from a dragon, I entered a new map area, and bam it crashed no message or anything
@ Robsoie, ah, that's a tough one. Hmm. I'll have to think about a solution!could it be because that key can actually display by default an accented character ( é ) in AZERTY keyboard that is not present for that key press for both QWERTY and DVORAK ?
Downloading now! 'Tis half past 3AM, but damnit I'm gonna try this out before I sleep! :D
@ Robsoie, ah, that's a tough one. Hmm. I'll have to think about a solution!could it be because that key can actually display by default an accented character ( é ) in AZERTY keyboard that is not present for that key press for both QWERTY and DVORAK ?
First impressions: Oh, this is so exciting! :D So many options!
...Hmm, I see what someone was saying about the keymapping, I would rather it was lowercase 'L' to look, etc.
Hang on, why did that wolf have a horn, which I just chopped off? I wish the window was resizable. :P
Still, I'm having fun! Time to figure out just what I'm doing.
RE: Keybindings, I'd say that it would be worth the time investment to make them customizable. I myself would probably make Inventory and Look both lower case, though.
Also, when examining the steel sabre I am currently wielding it is described as "lying on sparse grass 2 levels above where you are standing." And actually, now that I'm paying attention all my equipment says that.
Also also, and this is probably just shame on me for not paying as close attention to development as I should have, but am I always supposed to start with a steel sabre, or has that just been a fluke? I rolled with the Footsoldier preset this time so I have slashing skill, but it was a little strange to start with a slashy weapon playing as the bashy Warrior the previous games.
So, onto my second character after the game froze up somehow. This time I decided to try fast travel, to look around for any towns or similiar. Unsure what I was looking for, I just wandered aimlessly until I saw a big red triangle- Oh hey, a volcano! Let's explore THAT!
...It didn't end so well.Maybe you shouldn't be able to fast-travel into such a place? :P I liked the message it gave me, though.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@ Robsoie, ah, that's a tough one. Hmm. I'll have to think about a solution!could it be because that key can actually display by default an accented character ( é ) in AZERTY keyboard that is not present for that key press for both QWERTY and DVORAK ?
No, i was just randomly pressing on every keys ingame to test ;)
Yeah, the only thing I have actually fought is cyclopes I have not seen any wolves, and I run like a little coward from dragons!I've met all of them now. Of course, I've never actually survived a fight, since dragons and cyclopes rip me limb from limb and wolves come in large packs.
Two times has my game crashed one was when I decided to check out a small dormant volcanoe the other was when after I chopped off a Cyclop's leg and taking out the head when it crashed so I checked the log file.Also I can't seem to be able to get it into fullscreen.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Crash as a dragon appeared.
i also had a crash in 1.0 where i examined the spear i picked up in my inventory.
Played it, quite fun. Was first killed by a cyclops with a naginata that snuck up behind me, and later got a crash checking informational about humans.Spoiler: errorlog (click to show/hide)
Congratulations on your first release! Looking awesome indeed :)
Broke a wolf's leg, and then turned to try and get some distance.
It crashed.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I managed to survive a fight with a Cyclops even though it managed to trick me by sneaking up on me and me and spending 3 turns getting hit looking for where that damned thing was (really need sound or some kind of awareness of a few squares behind you), luckily all it managed to do was bruise my armour and lightly damage my leg, then a bit of exploring and I find two wolves , kill one quite easily after poking out an eye and the other one kills me quite easily :(
Next game I get a message about a Cyclops climbing but I can't see it anywhere, then I find it (trying to sneak up on me again!) and hah I damage it, then it hits my head twice to kill me >.< ahh once I get my bow I will dedicate a character to just blinding every Cyclops I see and leave it stumbling about.
it seems to close when you put it in 12 by 12 and fullscreen.
Downloaded .1.1 and it doesn't work. Specifically, I can load the first screen and see text like "new game, load game, quit, etc." However, I can only scroll up and down the list. I can't move to the next screen or even quit the game. I'm forced to CTRL-ALT-DELETE to get out of game.
I'm running Windows 7 on a wide screen laptop 1366x768. I wonder if the resolution is a problem, because I can't resize the screen either. Can someone tell me what the "normal" key to select new game is?
Played 0.1.0 and during the "Saving/Loading chunks" (I think) message, the game started lagging a lot. My computer nearly crashed and I was unable to get task manager open. It took about 5 minutes for it to stop lagging and instead opted to not respond. I was able to close it then using task manager.
I was running from dragons who were destroying trees everywhere. In the middle of the lag, the game proceed to run for a moment to move me around a bit and open the menu. I tried to go to quit using the menu, since the X button didn't work. When attempting to quit, the game stopped responding and that was when I was able to close it.
Will damaging certain parts of an animal's body enable you to get at others?
Something like lopping off a Cyclops' leg, causing it to fall over so you can behead it, or slashing open something's chest to stab at it's heart/lungs or any other vital organs.
also, it had better have the ability to spill guts (Like DF) because I love spilling guts and having all my enemies chasing me with their intestines dangling out behind them.
Yep. It was the second time I had encountered that chunk message, that session. I'm not sure when the lag appeared. The lag started when the message showed up. I kinda was able to move after the chunks message, but the game just repeated my panicked movement I did when I noticed it started lagging, then showed the menu you see when you press the "X" button. I was able to navigate to "Quit" and enter it. It gave an error when quitting and stopped responding. A minute or two later, task manager finally opened and I was able to end the process.-snip-
Urgh. Can you remember much else? Was it the first time with the chunks message? Did the message vanish before the lag, or did the lag start with the chunks message which stayed visible? Were you able to move again after the chunks message? Which menu did you try to get back to exit?
Ok for the answers to your Questions Ultima
1. No there was no log for that one the log I showed you was all of my logs after my screen crashed the second time maybe if I explain what happened it would help you find the problem. I was exploring the map for a few mins. When I pasted this kind of wierd looking symbol that looked alot like a volcanoe so I travel to it hit the button to go to the area map where it seemed it was good because it show me the map and all that stuff but before I could even try to move around the area my computer informed me that the game had stoped working and I needed to close it.
2. For the fullscreen thing I have just tried to go to fullscreen in the title menu and it disappers that makes me thing it's about to go into fullscreen when it never does ever it just disappers.
Note this is all in 0.1.0.
Also Wow I never type this much :o
Yep. It was the second time I had encountered that chunk message, that session. I'm not sure when the lag appeared. The lag started when the message showed up. I kinda was able to move after the chunks message, but the game just repeated my panicked movement I did when I noticed it started lagging, then showed the menu you see when you press the "X" button. I was able to navigate to "Quit" and enter it. It gave an error when quitting and stopped responding. A minute or two later, task manager finally opened and I was able to end the process.Spoiler: Quit error (click to show/hide)
I hope this information is good. :)
Nope, the chunk messsage stayed for most of the lag. It started when the message appeared.-snip-
Bluh; that's very strange. So chunks showed up; chunks went away; it was then lagging, and then do you mean it cut back to a really early menu suddenly? Did you press the X button and that brought up the early menu (I'm still unsure why that happens)? And by lagging, do you mean you were getting in very few moves per second, say, or that it was taking a while for your keypresses to have an effect? That's very interesting though; I'll try and figure out the cause. Could you let me know if it's ever happened again, or still happens with 0.1.2b?
Nope, the chunk messsage stayed for most of the lag. It started when the message appeared.
I didn't cut back to the early menu, it was sort of like the menu options overlayed the regular game. It was after I attempted mashing the X button so that I could get rid of it.
By lag, I meant the game was not reacting to anything I would do and my entire computer was slowing down to the point of near stopping.
It wasn't until I was able to hit quit in the menu that I was able to open task manager to kill it.
I would like to try, but this sort of lag is dangerous for my computer. My only way of shutting off my laptop if it freezes is pulling out it's battery and I don't exactly have a way to get it fixed if it breaks again. :(
Yeah Im on a laptop and the game actually goes off screen a bit so I cant see the newest messages within the game thats why I tried going into fullscreen in the first place(well I also like it too ;D) and there is no black screen it just disappers like it's about to go to the black screen then show the game but it just stays gone till I Start the game agian.
I've been following this pretty closely since you started the thread here, and I have to say you're off to an awesome start. I like the aesthetics of the travel mode, the fact that the world is not filling up the whole screen makes it feel like you're navigating a map.
Some UI things:
On the ground, it might be useful to let people know when they're approaching a loading area so they can avoid it if they wish. On the same note, the quotes that pop up are nice, but it obscures the view around your character. If you were in the middle of a fight, I might use that loading time to analyze the tactical situation.
For me personally, it is kind of awkward to use backspace as the "go back" key. I instinctively press "escape" if I want to exit something. You could always enable both.
In the skill select screen, you might want to allow people to hold shift + left/right arrows to increase/decrease skill points by 5 or 10 at a time. In general, the 1000 skill points to begin with is huge. I like that things could be fine tailored so much, but I need to sink a lot of time into customizing the character, and frankly the amount of options are overwhelming. The presets are a godsend though.
Anyway, congrats again on your first release.
:o
Just downloaded this and got owned by Cyclops. UI is excellent, I can't say much else that hasn't already been said however. It's great to finally be able to play around with this, alpha or no. :)
I find it odd that I can slash an ogre's leg to the bone and he still can stand. I think the damage model is a little too generous to the injured. Then I broke his bone, and he still stood and attacked. It's pretty much necessary to break both legs before they fall.
Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library
Assertion Failed!
Program: [directory]\URR0-1-2c.exe
File: src/console_c.c
Line: 220
Expression: dat != ((void *)0 && (unsigned)(x) < (unsigned)dat->w &&
(unsigned)(y) < (unsigned)dat->h
The game then crashed when I selected "Retry".URRO-1-2c.zip gives me this error when I try to unzip it.
'The archive is either in unknown format or damaged'
I will try version b.
edit: Older version aren't downloadable apparently. I guess I'll just wait until you have a new version which hopefully works for me :).
It sounds like you just have a bad download, try again maybe?
When approaching the sea I got the following message:Code: [Select]Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library
The game then crashed when I selected "Retry".
Assertion Failed!
Program: [directory]\URR0-1-2c.exe
File: src/console_c.c
Line: 220
Expression: dat != ((void *)0 && (unsigned)(x) < (unsigned)dat->w &&
(unsigned)(y) < (unsigned)dat->h
Also, I can't get the options to save. Are they meant to?
'Aha, as always i tend to find exploits ...
Go to your skill selection at char-gen.
Spend points.
Go back (backspace)
Spend more points
-Repeat.
Any plans on a forum soon? We could definitely use a place to discuss the game and such.
Hm, well I downloaded it and made a soldier character. Then a dragon came and I poked it until it died (it didn't attack), then I left the map and the game crashed when I tried to leave the current chunk (By heading east, not via "t"ravel.). No error log.
Edit: Tried again, started a warrior and got mauled by wolves.
I notice even with skill level 30 in heavy weapon aim I still kept attack their legs even though I was aiming at their heads.
Oh, this time I *did* get an error message when I pressed "J" to quit.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Any plans on a forum soon? We could definitely use a place to discuss the game and such.
Hey, URR, you said you were in the UK. Anywhere near Exeter?
P.S. I have a couple of busy days and when I finally get some time on the forums, I find you've released!? Damnit!
Downloaded .2c, still cannot proceed past loading screen. Forced to ctrl-alt-delete close the program. Windows 7 laptop.
y'know, I think you'll have to write a tribute to us B12ers somewhere in the game, given the number of ideas and bug reporting we've done :P
0.1.3b released:
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/downloads/
Right, that's the final release for a while. I'm now working on combat and skill trees for 0.2.0, as I decided a skill tree system would be much more interesting, and much more balanced. It'll also allow me to put in choices for the player to make about prioritizing some areas over others rather than being able to just train any skill. Plus the original skills list was a little... long...
Fun! I'll have to try it some more. Although the random materials for items was a bit odd. How do you get an Amber Halbard?
As long as you don't Post-Morrowind the skill list (referencing The Elder Scrolls and the baleetion of a good 50-60% of the skills between Morrowind and Skyrim [not saying their skill list didn't need some clipping!]). I definitely trust you know what you're doing though.
This game being released, even in this barest of forms, has been one of my top highlights of this month so far (seeing Roger Waters perform The Wall is the only thing right now that I can think of that I was more amped for).
Even including the bugs that you've been stomping at an awesome pace, I find myself starting up URR before I realize what's going on. As was previously stated, I can see this quickly becoming the game.
Also, you're awesome, and you should know that.
Finally got a chance to try it out last night. Looks great, good interface, played smooth. No crashes, but then I didn't get to do much. Mostly just walked around, picked up some random stuff (a wooden mace and an Amber? Halbard). Then got attacked by wolves.
Killed most of them, but died to the last one.
Fun! I'll have to try it some more. Although the random materials for items was a bit odd. How do you get an Amber Halbard?
oh awesome, B12 in acknowledgements!
trying to think of other quotes that'd be suitable. closest I got was 'before you criticise someone, walk a mile in their shoes, because then you'll be a mile away, and have their shoes.'
I need to work on finding more suitable quotes :/
Ninjaedit: 'I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy'-John Adams
knowing me though, you already go that one
Jurassic Park obviously. Which begs the question and/or suggestion. Can we have a secret volcanic island that would be home to dinosaurs on spawn. And perhaps neanderthals for a civ? Kind of like "The unclaimed new world" That would be a cool little adventure to have on a boat. Just saying. Then you could get amber-material weapons. Aww yeah.
I heartily endorse any and all Dino-biomes
Yeah, see Im not the only one who wants this lol. Of course itd be down the road, but something to think about.
I don't recall if it was discussed, probably was knowing you guys, but I'd love to eventually have the opportunity to interact with tribal or civilizations similar to the Aztecs, Mongols, Native Americans and the like. They could have unique weapons and such, and of course their troops and customs would vary widely. It'd also add another interesting aspect if a base magic is introduced (I'm in favor of a magic system that remains mid(?)-fantasy, like alchemy and rituals and the like), especially with groups similar to the Central American tribes, centering it around a few high priests, sacrificial rituals, and neat junk like that. Of course, that'd be so far down the line (and unlikely to happen) that I feel silly mentioning it.
retrieved the proper quote, and the name:
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes."
~ Jack Handey
EDIT: protip: if in need of quotes, look at the Civ series.
However, I can guarantee magic is never going to make an appearance in the game, I'm afraid :(.!!!
However, I can guarantee magic is never going to make an appearance in the game, I'm afraid :(.!!!
Haven't been keeping too much up with the thread, but... plans for magic were dropped?
I haven't read a fraction of this thread, I haven't even played the game.
But I have to say this.
Fuck Yes Please.
That is all.
Played a bit after finally getting back from a long family vacation. It works really well - the interface is easy to navigate, makes sense, and is great in general. Went and fought a couple cyclops, found that they're insanely strong and incredible at messing up my skull. Died twice due to a shattered skull, managed to kill one by taking out its torso.
No complaints, everything that was promised works perfectly. I'm sure the next release will be even more awesome!
However, I can guarantee magic is never going to make an appearance in the game, I'm afraid :(.!!!
Haven't been keeping too much up with the thread, but... plans for magic were dropped?
Same here, haven't been following in here either, and this makes me a little disappointed. However, I'm sure there's good reasons for it. Power level, coding issues, possibility of it becoming too much of a 'unfun' mechanic, etc. etc.
This game can be (and is on track to be!) an amazing game without it, so that in itself is one reason not to include it, I suppose. :P
So expanding from what you said to my idea, there is a time to technology level? Ranging from basic stones and sticks to arrows and swords, to perhaps basic firework artillery and basic firearms? Or wut?
Oh. This is out now? Awesome. I've been peeking at Other Games and checking at this every so often. Can't wait to give it a try when I'm not bogged down with forum games.
Gratz on release.
Have... Have towns been implemented?
*sigh*
waiting eagerly...
I'm fairly certain that we need to wait at least 2 or 3 more years until all the core features are fully implemented.
Something tells me you'll be suffering from sleep deprivation for the next 6 to 8 months :(
Don't push it too hard, man. We can wait.
I think he mentioned he was a Grad Student. Sleep deprivation should in theory be his default state.
I also noticed 'undead civilization' mentioned several times on the world gen options. Can't wait to see how undeath will be handled without magic.
When I first saw this I was like,
"Mount and Blade meets Dwarf Fortress? Have you been looking into my dreams?"
I'm sure this will be worth the wait.
Make a forum, Bay12 can't be your forum.
Visual arts, music, writing, and anything else you are working on that you'd like to share. Video game projects work here or in Other Games. General workshops and questions about this sort of thing are welcome here. Reviews and discussion about stuff by other people would be better over at General Discussion.
In my expereince, many games start here, move to their own forums and I promptly lose track of them (I'm looking at you cataclysm and prospector).
Until you need to have multiple discussions running separably or a large player base outside of b12, there's no need for a separate forum.
Besides, forums take work. Do your grad school and your development and leave the infrastructure of your fan base to someone else.
The absence of Mac version still makes me sad. I can play it fine, but I have to open up the XP VM to do so.
If you do get a forum, please keep posting the changelogs here as well. I'm interested in a lot of games, and I just can't check all their fora/blogs regularly.
Just after you post saying "OSX unlikely", my XP VM dies on me, forcing a full hard reset every time i try to oepn it. No more URR for me, it seems :(
I can't get my screen to allow me to see the bottom of the game window. Is there some trick that I don't know?
I can't get my screen to allow me to see the bottom of the game window. Is there some trick that I don't know?
I have that problem as well.
I had this problem as well at when I started the game.
Go to options, change resolution.
If that doesn't help then I can't help.
Never mind. My windows virtual machine has crashed, and I deleted my linux VM because I never use it.
It's alright.. I'll just.. sit over here and watch URR. *soft weeping*
Hi. I didn't actually read the 50+ pages of this thread, so maybe this was asked before.
You mention in the downloads section that people found too many skills in your alpha release. I couldn't even find one. Actually I couldn't find anything (no humans, no shops, no animals) except occasional cyclops (huh?) attacking me with a naginata (wth?). Is my version bugged, or were you talking about something else, and it's working just as intended?
Just your your latest post. Sounds interesting, and this is something I've wanted someone to do for quite a while. I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works in execution.
Personally, I'd probably end up using the option with the most information most often. Not because I'd want things to be easy, but because it'd be interesting to see how the world ended up. Also, I could pick an area that would have interesting things going on in it for me to do and try to effect.
Which is nice, because your system allows for different ways to get challenges. Just because I know what's going on doesn't mean I can't pick a difficult situation to throw myself into. :)
My personal opinion is that you should include options 2 and 3 or some other form of "partial knowledge" choice. A really intriguing way to do it in my opinion would be to tie the knowledge given into the character you start as. I.e. if you start as a general you know all about the size of the territory and the army etc, but next to nothing about the economic side of things, or if you start as a diplomat or lawmaker of some sort you know all its policies but relatively little about the army.
So I started playing, and immediately ran into a cyclops. I figure I'm dead anyways, but meh I'm still gonna fight.
Is your character supposed to be retarded at combat? I attacked the left leg every time, but I did more damage to the torso and the right leg than to the left leg! I mean, a bit of skill-based randomization might be neat, but statistically speaking I'm hitting my intended target less often than if I were randomly swinging.
And I know it's in alpha/beta, but are there like key game elements missing? Claiming to be a strategy roguelike, but it seems that the skills and army management screens aren't in yet, and there appear to be no towns or cities at all. So it's neat and all, but it currently doesn't do anything it wants to, or am I just missing it?
it's a sort of 'tech demo'
it's nowhere near complete, it's just a sort of download that shows what some systems are like.
So what will the other 2 eras be?
The age of discovery? The Modern age?
Then little mini eras in between, like an ancient era before the medieval era, then between the age of discovery and the modern age the industrial revolution?
That's the first thing that popped into my head, but I am interested in what you plan on doing.
My brain keeps trying to figure out how to make a boardgame out of that skill tree diagram of yours...
MY brain keeps trying to figure out how the hell I'm ever going to micromanage those skill trees for every single unit in my 10,000 man army.
(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2012/08/SwordTree.png)
I was just talking about this one. My brain just keeps going "That looks like a fascinating layout for a game board."
In any case, looking forward to the next version. :)
I'm going to download the 0.2.0, since apparently a little OSX work will get done on it, and see if I can apply my reasonable experience to making it compile properly for mac os 10.5.8. If I buy a new computer, I may well send you this one if you want it. It kinda sucks (hence new computer), but if it helps you get URR working, all the better. Dunno if I can afford a new computer yet, though.
Looking at the example skill tree you posted URR, I think that min/maxing may be an issue. All of the 'rewards' on the tree are at the end of branches. So in order to get special moves and more stat points you need to focus your XP on a specific branch because the experience consts of each skill go up as you any skill in the tree. So buying a point of accuracy will make it harder to buy another point of damage.
To remedy this I have four possible suggestions
1) break up the goodies so that you don't need to complete a tree to get special moves or stat points, some are available along the path. This will encourage people to build a more well rounded character as they go for specific attainable goals.
2)Make XP costs scale by branch rather than by tree. So investing points in slashing damage wouldn't increase the difficulty of learning slashing accuracy.
3)Mix up trees a little bit. Damage II doesn't need to come after Damage I, it could come after accuracy I. By weighting the frequency of accuracy, damage and specials on each branch you could present alternatives that are less munchkiny
4)Add cross-requisites to force players to broaden their skill selection. For example, require a special move learned on the accuracy tree to advance the ability to chop off limbs past level 2. This would make the skill tress massively more complex, but would force players to broaden their skill selection.
Why not split a little more?
You have a special attack. One alternative option for it makes it hit more enemys. Another makes it hit twice. You can focus on the whole tree and max that one attack. Or you could branch.
Removing player choice seems like a unneeded move in a game of this complexity level, we are not the average gamer that needs a double D pointing out how to move.
Instead of D->D+->d++->D++->New skill
/ Accuracy +------Accuracy ++ ----- Special: Focus - your next attack will be far more likly to hit.
/
Start--------Penetration + ------->Penetration ++
\
\ Range + -----Range ++ -------Range +++
\\
Special: Max Range attack, take a round to rest/higher cost
Note: Each Step also gives a small damage boost.
For now as I see it, you have "Damage" and then "more Damage" as a single path for... well damage.
Depending on the finer mechanics, there are many ways to deal damage - especially, getting it to the target, from armor penetration, to amount of hits, accuracy, range, stamina/mana cost and therelike. Allowing one to choose the strenghts of a specific skill and the way you deliver the damage is what I'm refering to.
Example:Code: [Select]
Instead of D->D+->d++->D++->New skill
this:Code: [Select]/ Accuracy +------Accuracy ++ ----- Special: Focus - your next attack will be far more likly to hit.
/
Start--------Penetration + ------->Penetration ++
\
\ Range + -----Range ++ -------Range +++
\\
Special: Max Range attack, take a round to rest/higher cost
Note: Each Step also gives a small damage boost.
Hey, just wondering, do human civilizations and eras really even exist yet?Nope not yet at least yet.
Hey, just wondering, do human civilizations and eras really even exist yet?Nope not yet at least yet.
That is, if the world doesn't END.Hey, just wondering, do human civilizations and eras really even exist yet?Nope not yet at least yet.
The downloads page lists everything in place; history and civilizations will start to appear in 1.0.x around the beginning of next year :).
life is, in a word, death.I've always liked that quote but I cant remember for the life of me who said that.
life is, in a word, death.I've always liked that quote but I cant remember for the life of me who said that.
Linkage (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=84594.0)life is, in a word, death.I've always liked that quote but I cant remember for the life of me who said that.
Some random NPC in Dwarf Fortress, I think.
The world won't end in 2012, that's just when world gen stops and some hero is going to start adventuring around the world.
Four skill trees! I've taken (I hope) the advice on-board, and there have been some changes to some of the trees - I think each of the four directions now offer interesting decisions in themselves, though I am still undecided about how special attack requirements work out. Feedback would be awesome:This looks really awesome. Aaaah, when's the next version coming out?
(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2012/09/Combat-Skills-Medieval1.png)
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/09/18/medieval-skill-trees-13/
Four skill trees! I've taken (I hope) the advice on-board, and there have been some changes to some of the trees - I think each of the four directions now offer interesting decisions in themselves, though I am still undecided about how special attack requirements work out. Feedback would be awesome:This looks really awesome. Aaaah, when's the next version coming out?
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/09/18/medieval-skill-trees-13/
Skill trees look balanced and make sense, what with the knockback bonus for heavy weapons and the dismounting bonus for long weapons. But I'm wondering - will all weapons basically start out the same and only differ where the tree differs, or will certain weapon types have higher/lower stats, like, maces have higher damage but lower accuracy.
Also, I'm wondering how character stat progression is going to work. Will it be procedural and go up as you use the skills (like DF) or will you be raising whatever stats you deem fit once you gain enough points?
NO! luck shall not play a part! you shall, I pay you to be utterly overworked and underslept!
I don't pay you money, but I do pay you respect!
:P
This seems interesting. I ran around, stabbed a cyclops to death, picked up a tempered steel stiletto, and crashed the game by attacking another cyclops.
Errorlog is hereSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Glad to see this is game is developing well. The first version has bags of potential!
Grappling hooks? Nice.
So, what will be the last tree about?
I just realised: that appears to be like some sort of ascii mario world!
This is shaping up nicely...
When I played it I found it pretty annoying scrolling down to the same area of attack over and over again.This is shaping up nicely...
Glad to hear it :). It's very nice on my end to have the time to really get stuck into programming all the new stuff now; the secret feature-bloat I've hinted at for 0.2.0 is looking amazing, I've got almost all the skills planned out, and the changes I'm going to make to combat, too. I'm thinking about 'reducing' limbs a little - so, for instance, an arm has upper arm, lower arm, hand, and each can be damaged to various extents, broken, or severed. It's still more complex than just hitpoints in most roguelikes, but it's also simpler than it was, and the previous complexity wasn't really adding anything to gameplay.
When I played it I found it pretty annoying scrolling down to the same area of attack over and over again.
Maybe the selector when you hit someone could automatically start on the place you hit last.
If this is already in then I'm just stupid and disregard me.
So, correct me if I'm wrong but I heard magic is out of the game plans now. Magic could work well for a game like this but I understand the setting of the game. I'm no expert but it sounds like magic would take a long time to implement which could be better spent creating the strategy part of the game. Are supernatural things like vampirism still in?
New trees look good, I think I'll probably spend a crapton of points in stealth and become an assassin.
Speaking of which, will we be able to do that (in the long run, I mean)? It's cool being commander of a huge army, but what if you just feel like playing the role of the hired blade? Will the politics include people who want each other dead and are willing to get it done in an underhanded way?
And off of that, how is a character's reputation going to work? Will rumors spread when people notice certain actions? Would it be possible to have no-one know a thing about you provided you left no witnesses alive? Because in DF, you kill someone, the entire race knows through some kind of psychic aether and they get pissy with you. I hope it doesn't end up like that.
It is indeed long out; all supernatural elements are similarly out. I'm basically going for total realism in the world. However, I'm working on implementing things that would be in fantasy roguelikes in the first era. For instance, there will still be tombs, ruins, caves, whatever to explore, but their occupants will be natural/human, and their rewards will be... actually, I'll leave that for now. I have a neat idea on that one.
Damn it, you are getting me hyped.
Awesome :D
I'm going try to be an assassin too. I always wanted to do that in DF adventure mode but since everyone instantly knows what you did it's no fun.
I really hate how in most games it's like, oh, someone saw you kill someone? EVERY ONE KNOWS NOW!
Will it be diffrent in this game? Can I kill someone and then murder the witnesses? Can I wear a mask so no one knows who the killer was, etc?
I really hate how in most games it's like, oh, someone saw you kill someone? EVERY ONE KNOWS NOW!STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!
Will it be diffrent in this game? Can I kill someone and then murder the witnesses? Can I wear a mask so no one knows who the killer was, etc?
When I played it, the only things I could do were walk around, collect equipment, and get killed by cyclopses.I never found any humans, wolves, etc,couldn't choose skills, and the version said .0.1.0 instead of .3. It MIGHT be my computer, but I tried clicking both .rar and .zip and it had the same problem.
STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!
QuoteSTOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!
> Resist Arrest
THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD (For the blood god!)!
QuoteSTOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!
> Resist Arrest
THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD (For the blood god!)!
There are no blood gods here!
QuoteSTOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!
> Resist Arrest
THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD (For the blood god!)!
There are no blood gods here!
You cannot get YE FLASK.
ooh, this looks very interesting. The kind of game that is right up my alley :) will definitely be watching this.
For me, the first version was only for showing off the combat and it met my expectations. I even managed to kill a couple of cyclops :D
Oh god, we killed all the cyclopes!
Genocide of cyclopes was ruthless but necessary!
That'd be neat for adding even more flavor. Kind of like how we have leprechaun, dragon, and chupathingy tales.
Many, many months after the original and now hugely out-of-date entry with a similar name, the new character creation:Looks good, but it got me wondering how you are going to handle languages, specifically learning them. I might have missed the post that mentioned it in the past.
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/10/02/character-creation-2/
Many, many months after the original and now hugely out-of-date entry with a similar name, the new character creation:Looks good, but it got me wondering how you are going to handle languages, specifically learning them. I might have missed the post that mentioned it in the past.
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/10/02/character-creation-2/
Would it be possible to have the General give something like a combat and/or morale boost to nearby soldiers? That is, if the PC won't already be buffing the men around him/her already.Well, that should be in the Leadership skill tree I think. Even assassins sometimes lead very small groups.
Would it be possible to have the General give something like a combat and/or morale boost to nearby soldiers? That is, if the PC won't already be buffing the men around him/her already.Well, that should be in the Leadership skill tree I think. Even assassins sometimes lead very small groups.
Useful info on morale for groups: When a unit starts backing up without being ordered to, it's a sure sign that they are doing poorly and probably about to get trounced.
I do a lot of SCA recreation combat, and it's interesting how much of an effect morale has even when you aren't actually in danger of getting seriously hurt. I often find myself yelling at people not to back up, because a unit that is backing up (without being ordered to) is a unit that is dying. There ends up being a momentum effect where the retreating unit is off-balance, so the other group pushes harder and is more effective, making the survivors back up more, and it all goes downhill from there unless someone does something to change it.
It's one of the reasons having a reserve or flanking unit can be so powerful. Having another unit at your back or seeing an ally charge in from the side does wonders for your morale.
Speaking of morale...
Will I be able to kill units that are on the verge of breaking? Commissar style?
Also, will you be able to talk to your units on the field, something like,
"Charge men! To glory!"
"That's suicidal, retreat!"
"Get back here you cowards!"
Will you be able to have specific messagers who carry messages(O RLY?) to your officers, and reports back to you about the situation on the field?
I really want to shout at my soldiers on the battlefield :D
I don't know if you guys play Football Manager but I'm sure you heard of it. You can talk to your team in the dressing room and you have to be careful about what you are going to say. For example, you are going to play against a very strong team. You can tell players to relax and you can even win the match but if you say you expect a win they'll become stressed. Or let's say you are playing against a weaker team and winning. In the half time, if you warn them not to be complacent they'll keep their focus on but if you just tell them to relax and enjoy the rest of the match they might get too relaxed.
I always enjoy these kinds of stuff and I think things like giving a rallying speech before the big battle would be a badass feature. Even if it doesn't do anything it will add some RP value.
Useful info on morale for groups: When a unit starts backing up without being ordered to, it's a sure sign that they are doing poorly and probably about to get trounced.
I do a lot of SCA recreation combat, and it's interesting how much of an effect morale has even when you aren't actually in danger of getting seriously hurt. I often find myself yelling at people not to back up, because a unit that is backing up (without being ordered to) is a unit that is dying. There ends up being a momentum effect where the retreating unit is off-balance, so the other group pushes harder and is more effective, making the survivors back up more, and it all goes downhill from there unless someone does something to change it.
It's one of the reasons having a reserve or flanking unit can be so powerful. Having another unit at your back or seeing an ally charge in from the side does wonders for your morale.
That is *really* interesting. So Group A sees Group B retreating, pushes forward more, so Group A feels they can back off more, so group B continues to push, and the line disintegrates? Fascinating - and I see what you mean about flanking. The exact morale system I'd like to be very complex, but also very transparent - if something like you described happens, I want the player to be alerted to the fact Group A is retreating for the reasons they are. I don't think that's something I want to keep under the hood - the player needs to know immediately where the problem stems from.
Useful info on morale for groups: When a unit starts backing up without being ordered to, it's a sure sign that they are doing poorly and probably about to get trounced.
I do a lot of SCA recreation combat, and it's interesting how much of an effect morale has even when you aren't actually in danger of getting seriously hurt. I often find myself yelling at people not to back up, because a unit that is backing up (without being ordered to) is a unit that is dying. There ends up being a momentum effect where the retreating unit is off-balance, so the other group pushes harder and is more effective, making the survivors back up more, and it all goes downhill from there unless someone does something to change it.
It's one of the reasons having a reserve or flanking unit can be so powerful. Having another unit at your back or seeing an ally charge in from the side does wonders for your morale.
That is *really* interesting. So Group A sees Group B retreating, pushes forward more, so Group A feels they can back off more, so group B continues to push, and the line disintegrates? Fascinating - and I see what you mean about flanking. The exact morale system I'd like to be very complex, but also very transparent - if something like you described happens, I want the player to be alerted to the fact Group A is retreating for the reasons they are. I don't think that's something I want to keep under the hood - the player needs to know immediately where the problem stems from.
Sort of. It's not so much that Group A feels that they can back off more, it's that they will back up. Pretty much involuntarily.
A well disciplined group, of course, is much more resistant to this sort of thing. It's one of the defining differences between professional soldiers and militia/levees. The militia starts to back up and it all goes downhill. The professionals will hold the line until actually ordered to back up, which can them be done in an orderly fashion without hurting morale any.
Unfortunately this next bit is based purely on texts and accounts, so I can't be quite so sure of it, but apparently witnessing a successful cavalry charge does wonders for infantry morale, but not very much for other cavalry. Perhaps it simply goes without saying that the other guys on hoseback feel pretty good, but there have been a fair few mentions of it that seem limited to infantry (including making a note on it in pretty much every book on war ever written).
Sort of. It's not so much that Group A feels that they can back off more, it's that they will back up. Pretty much involuntarily.
A well disciplined group, of course, is much more resistant to this sort of thing. It's one of the defining differences between professional soldiers and militia/levees. The militia starts to back up and it all goes downhill. The professionals will hold the line until actually ordered to back up, which can them be done in an orderly fashion without hurting morale any.
This sounds like it's going to end up like Dwarf Fortress, it's going to be a crapload better than most games now, but I'm going to have to wait hilarious amounts of time for new stuff.
Anyway, what I was wondering was how you are going to handle stealth, like using guerrilla warfare and such.
So will we have randomly generated speeches?
I love how Rome: Total War did it, where having better command will cause a longer speech and certain traits will cause your general to sometimes say different things.
I vote "hell yeah!" for procedurally generated speeches.
Even though I can't currently play (my experiments have not yet come to fruition), I keep an eye on what's going on over here, and I thought I'd add my two pence, garnered from LARPing and study:
The hardest bit of keeping a shield wall intact is convincing the guys at the front to ignore whatever gets through and reform. If someone breaks the wall, there are ranks behind whose job it is to down whatever did it. When the front line gets panicky and tries to do the job themselves, they cease being a shieldwall and become a tightly packed mess with no front, and from there it's all pretty bad.
Unfortunately this next bit is based purely on texts and accounts, so I can't be quite so sure of it, but apparently witnessing a successful cavalry charge does wonders for infantry morale, but not very much for other cavalry. Perhaps it simply goes without saying that the other guys on hoseback feel pretty good, but there have been a fair few mentions of it that seem limited to infantry (including making a note on it in pretty much every book on war ever written).
As for speeches, I reckon procedurally generated would be pretty cool, as Devling said. The various skills could have a minor effect on the speech, even down to whether you exhort your troops to hack them down, or crush them.
Makes sense. Most cavalry feels pretty safe. Either they're light cav and can ride away from most threats or they're heavy cav and used to bowling things over. Since they don't usually have poor morale, they don't react as much as the infantry does. Especially when you get to much of the middle ages where Cavalry were Knights, and therefore professional soldiers, and most Infantry were levees who had little training or skill.
Speaking of Knights, one thing that might be interesting to model is capturing opponents for ransom. We always think of Knights as using swords, which is very true, but most people forget that swords aren't that great at killing an armored foe. Even if it's just chainmail, a sword is going to be worse at actually killing the other guy than a mace or axe would.
However, swords are great for killing off those worthless peasants that make up the bulk of your opponent's forces while generally keeping the valuable armor wearing prisoners alive.
It's not until later period, when ransoming became less practiced, that all of the real anti-armor weapons got developed and used extensively.
I like the idea of some kind of rock-paper-scissors system.
So my sword is less effective against a guy wearing a breastplate(if I hit his chest) then if I smack him with a mace or something.
Ransoming is also a good idea, but I would like to see POWs and defeated soldiers become slaves and the like.
I want to turn prisoners into gladiators and give them the opportunity to fight for their freedom.
Classes ???
Will you be able to rule if you do not start as a ruler? I bet there are plenty of people who actually want to form/conquer land and rule it afterwards. Will the AI have classes?
I've actually just split up "Cavalry" and "Knights" as unit types - the former are going to have swords/gunpowder...
I've actually just split up "Cavalry" and "Knights" as unit types - the former are going to have swords/gunpowder...
I will descend upon my foes with the thunder of horse and harquebus. I doubt any other unit will even see service in the armies of Rowan, for light skirmishing cavalry armed with pistols are quite clearly the supreme force on any battlefield :D
Sort of. It's not so much that Group A feels that they can back off more, it's that they will back up. Pretty much involuntarily.
A well disciplined group, of course, is much more resistant to this sort of thing. It's one of the defining differences between professional soldiers and militia/levees. The militia starts to back up and it all goes downhill. The professionals will hold the line until actually ordered to back up, which can them be done in an orderly fashion without hurting morale any.
Got it. Interesting. I'll definitely implement that kind of difference (I do intend to have militias as an alternative option when in cities, and maybe they can also be recruited when on the march too?).
Nation Wealth | Nation Size | Army Type |
High | Large | Professional |
High | Small | Mercenary |
Medium | Large | Feudal + Mercenary |
Medium | Small | Feudal |
Low | Large | Feudal |
Low | Small | Volunteer/Tribal |
Well, you should certainly have different troop options depending on the culture. The distinction between a Roman style Army of professionals, a Greek style volunteer army, a Feudal system of Knights and peasant conscripts, a wandering Horde of warlike nomads, and a nation that has a small standing army and relies on Mercenaries is all very distinct.
They all have their advantages and disadvantages, and tend to develop based on the economic ability and needs of the nation.
A true standing army requires a lot of money and upkeep, so it can only be done by a very wealthy nation. Or one that simply places a high value on such a thing, like Sparta did. True Spartans didn't really work, that was all done by slaves and second-class citizens from other areas. The Spartans themselves were professional soldiers, which is why there were so effective in battle compared to their contemporaries. The Romans, likewise, had large standing armies of professional soldiers which allowed them to rule a vast empire.
Smaller nations tend to go for either a disorganized tribal/volunteer structure, where most men are warriors at least part time, or for an upper class of warriors who form the core of the army in combat and lead the mostly untrained armies of peasant levees into battle. Middle-ages Europe or Feudal Japan are good examples of those.
You also have small but wealthy nations, like Venice, who tended to use a lot of Mercenaries since their populations were too small to support a large army despite having the wealth to do so.
I'd probably set up a system like this:
Nation Wealth Nation Size Army Type High Large Professional High Small Mercenary Medium Large Feudal + Mercenary Medium Small Feudal Low Large Feudal Low Small Volunteer/Tribal
With some modifiers for Civilization traits like Nomadic or Militaristic bumping things in one direction or another.
I have a question. In RPGs I try to do a little of everything. For example, I might start out as an assassin but after some time I could try being a general. Will this class system is going to have a big effect on the way the player plays? Once we we choose a class will that be the only thing we will do?
I certainly think that culture and policies should effect military types. If you have a warlike neighbor, you're going to prioritize military a lot more than if you live on an island that's hard to get to by invaders.
Should be interesting to see what you settle on.
Meph just shot something straight into my brain:
When traveling by sea, is there a chance of running up against rocks, rogue waves, and storms battering or otherwise destroying your ship/fleet? Because an island surrounded by cliffs and rough waters would be awesome if all that had effect. And in addition to that, if you get shipwrecked what will happen? Will you die, or is there a chance you'll wash up on a nearby shore without any of your equipment and possibly in a strange land. Because that'd make for some real interesting player stories.
And now I'm imagining leading a group of guys on a ship to scale a cliff face in the middle of the night to kill some peeps.
Will killing civilians affect how the world views you?
Yes, if somebody sees you. And it will be CLEAR if they see you, unlike DF/Skyrim/every other game. I don't want people magically seeing you through walls.
Oh, and don't forget whirlpools! They are legitimately my only fear, and I have no reason why. Maybe they'd work like the swirling tiles force you x-tiles in the direction of the spin per tick (am I using the right terms?) while also moving you a tile or so inwards/downwards, and as you move closer to the center you begin to spin faster. Then treat the center like a singularity as punishment for annoying the ocean with your petty wooden craft.I have seen a whirlpool. Shit's scary.
I have a question. In RPGs I try to do a little of everything. For example, I might start out as an assassin but after some time I could try being a general. Will this class system is going to have a big effect on the way the player plays? Once we we choose a class will that be the only thing we will do?
Hopefully the skills are such that whatever class you start as can be combined intelligently with other skill trees. Because each skill tree has its own EXP meter, rather than a global one, there is nothing stopping you from starting new trees at whatever point in the game you want. I'm hoping it'll strike a balance between specializing and generalizing, but only playtesting can say :)
I dunno don't make it too clear. I don't like it when it comes up with a big !!!DETECTED!!! when you have been detected. I would like NPC guard to be like, 'hmm let that cocky shit think he is hidden while we surround him'
That's just my preference anyway :P
Oh, and don't forget whirlpools! They are legitimately my only fear, and I have no reason why. Maybe they'd work like the swirling tiles force you x-tiles in the direction of the spin per tick (am I using the right terms?) while also moving you a tile or so inwards/downwards, and as you move closer to the center you begin to spin faster. Then treat the center like a singularity as punishment for annoying the ocean with your petty wooden craft.I have seen a whirlpool. Shit's scary.
As long as we can do anything we want, I'm game :D
That's always my biggest fear with classes, and it's been partly fueled by the old-school interpretation of them, whereby each class is a package of things you can do, or will be able to do, and if what you want to do falls outside of your given class, you're a bit fucked. If they determine starting stats, give you a little boost and the like, I don't see it being a game-breaker for me.
Yeah, I mean look at Elona. Your class is basicly what you start out with. You can learn every skill and do everything if you want. Even races doesn't matter much, except for racial attributes. I really like the way how it is at Elona.
If we're going to have multiple saved characters, are we going to have to generate multiple worlds, like in DF? Because you can only control one Fortress/Adventurer at a time, since time is constantly passing in said world.
Are you going for the same thing, or are you going to just make each save a "parallel universe" of the same world?
It would be nice for characters to be able to claim relics of long-lost warlords (which you played AS, in the world's past), but it would also be nice to make multiple characters at the same time.
What are you planning?
I would kind of like a system where you play multiple characters in the same universe. When you're not playing a character, they act as NPC's based on their skills, and possibly how the player played them (e.g. violently / diplomatically / sneakily.)
This way you could sort of do an AAR of the perfect evil empire - by setting it and it's subordinates up yourself, and then spawning a new character to take them down. :D
Woo! Getting a new computer soon, and then I won't have to worry about URR not workngi any more! Shoopdawoop!
Map looks niiiiiice. I can easily understand everything, and the rivers are much less painful to behold. :P
It's regrettable to have nobody to stab in the face, but it's to be expected in a game in such an early phase, so that's cool.
Calendars for different cultures would be a nice feature, but possibly annoying. As long as it's clear what season you're in though, I doubt it'll be much issue.
Speaking of which, I'm wondering how the seasons are going to be displayed. You've probably seen comics about how in DF, when it becomes winter, IT BECOMES WINTER. As in, everything freezes on the spot. I'm hoping you have a much more gradual proceedings, and hopefully some nice bright fall colors during the appropriate time.
But I digress. The last point... the turn system! You probably did it in the best possible way (which is, coincidentally, the way most smart roguelike developers choose to do it). Much better than Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, in which the player always moves first, and the only move speeds are 1x, 2x, and 3x. ::)
One more random question:
BLOOD. I'm not a huge gore fan, but I do like fancy blood effects to show that you're doing damage in battle. Even in roguelikes, it's satisfying to see little red (or green, or pink, or whatever other colors blood could be in a fantasy game) trails and splotches appear after your attacks connect. DF does this when limbs go flying, but other than that, there isn't much. How will you add it into your game, if at all?
I want a red tide after fighting off an invasion force coming from the sea.
Speaking of defending, I don't know if you've discussed this (I seem to say that a lot in here), but what are you doing for defensive strategy? I figure people will gather intel and you'll get ideas about enemy troop movement, maybe some enemy kingdom's motives for future conquests. How will setting up troops prebattle work? I take it you won't randomly encounter a sizeable force (save for ambushes), so will there be time to order troops around when you see them? How about setting up your own ambushes?
Most importantly, will I be able to make a wall of corpses!?
I would also like to see bodies being something physical, instead of an item you can stack infinitely on a single tile.
I really like the color palette of the map. It almost looks like a real map.
I don't know what you have in mind for prebattle setup, but I've got Rome:TW on my mind. Generally, you always get to set up in your little arrangement, and fight like you're supposed to, but sometimes you get ambushed, and end up in a little marching column of fail, with ambushers on either side. I think it'd probably do to have a turn-counter until the fight, and in each pre-battle "turn" you can move one regiment around. Obviously, for the big battles, you'll have dozens, so that you'll pretty much always have enough time to get it perfect. In an ambush situation, the ambushers get lots of turns to set up, while the ambushees(?) might get only a single turn or two to make a couple of desperate adjustments. When two armies with no foreknowledge bump into each other, no-one gets any turns to shuffle, and the fight begins immediately.
This system allows fo much more reactive, flexible armies at small scale, and goes a fair way to representing the difficulty of managing a large force (you can't always get them all in position by the start of the battle). As Sun Tzu said: The same principles govern the many as the few. The difference is in organisation.
I really like that idea.
Can you go idle for a time?
Like, gathering troops or doing a job for money at months at a time?
Those trees... they're so beautiful!
Those are some very fancy lookin' trees. I like it.
Whoa! I wasn't expecting anything bigger than a few trees having 2x2 squares with the same tile. It looks awesome.
I just thought of something. Can we climb on trees and take out the incoming enemy with out bow? :D Forests could make ambushes easier.
Those trees... they're so beautiful! Can you walk on all the tiles save the centre one, and if you can, how do you represent what you can see underneath the treecover?
Would there be a way to start a brush fire in order to halt/disrupt an enemy advancement through trees?
Of course, there's the chance it'd burn towards you also if there was proper kindling. Maybe if wind is ever a factor that'd change smoke concealment and fire spread (as well as ranged accuracy, but that's a different topic).
And will there be the possibility for prolonged sieges, cutting off cities from supplies and the like, and allowing them to slowly decay from within? That would be one of the times where a waiting mechanic might be nice. Say you choose to specify how many weeks/hours/days to stay in one location, though enemy action would interrupt it.
Throwing out brain thoughts again.
Brilliant idea to add three stages for stamina :)
I assume lost stamina is easier to recover than exhaustion. Do all of these recover by time or, for example, do you have to sleep to recover exhaustion or something?
Stm is stamina, Wpr is your willpower (which you dip into and get a big combat boost from when you run out of stamina) and Exh is your exhaustion bar (which you want to avoid - it kicks in if both Stm+Wpr are gone, and massively weakens you for its duration until you start to recover).
Brilliant idea to add three stages for stamina :)
I assume lost stamina is easier to recover than exhaustion. Do all of these recover by time or, for example, do you have to sleep to recover exhaustion or something?
Interesting. I've seen games split it two ways usually for slumber and fatigue.
But this is the first one that actually seperated tired versus fatigued versus broken. Actually the only one I seen that seperated tired and Fatigued (there is a difference)
So if I'm reading this right, combat effectiveness over time goes like this: normal (start of fight)> better (run out of Stm)> worse (run out of Wpr). If this is the case, I'm not sure I agree with that setup. Maybe its supposed to represent adrenaline or something, but it doesn't make sense from a game perspective to reward the player for running out of stamina. Maybe characters with high willpower could use it to gain combat bonuses even if they didn't run out of stamina? You could call it "focusing" or something.
Well the way I see it...
You could run out of Exhaustion before Stamina if you are doing intensive light work (just like real life).
Stamina representing the difference between being fine and tired. Exhaustion representing the difference between being fine and fatigued
The difference between tired and fatigued?
Well tired is being out of energy, you simply don't have any extra energy to give. Fatigue is strain, you can have energy but you cannot make your muscles give out the same input.
Willpower of course represents your mental stress.
Of course I am prepared to be wrong.
Though honestly I'd think it would almost be better as a: Stamina/Exhaustion, Fatigue, and Stress bars.
Random thought of the day:
How about there is different stages of sneaking?
Instead of, invisible, and "Everyone within the entire country now knows your name, face, criminal record, and favorite type of cat."
Maybe, invisible, sighted, discovered?
Something inbetween, where a guard might have seen you, but doesn't know you or your intentions?
So, if your sneaking through the streets trying to hid from guards, and a merchant sees you, he might find you suspicious and keep an eye on you, but won't attack you or anything.
But if a guard on night patrol spotted you sneaking about, he would call for back up or try to apprehend you or something.
Just as long as there isn't any silly "You have been detected message" im happy. What would really be fun is sneaking up on sneakers and then stabbing!
What would really be awesome is if you can use disguises and blend into crowds hitman/assassins creed style, like if one army has armour which is decorated with crests (house, army, civ, etc...) you can use it to pretend you are part of an army to then assassinate the leader before the battle and just walk away cool as a cucumber.
I like thinking of the Willpower as more like a second wind or that little rush you get when you know things are getting heavy. I think that's a nice balance, having it blown through quicker and risking entering the exhausted zone. It makes me think of a scenario where I'm on top of a hill fighting off foes trying to take the position. When I burn through the first meter I get into an almost battle trance, but if the fighting continues afterwards, I'm totally spent.
Kind of like Raging or Berserking in certain games, where you go nuts then suck for a little bit.
I don't want to be the guy who shouts "BUT IT'S NOT REALISTIC!!!!!1!11" but I gotta side with realism with this realism vs. fun thing this time.
You don't just become a big angry fella by thinking "ASSKICKER MODE ACTIVATED" unless you seek out a wise old man who teaches you the secrets of angry-ass-kicking. Even the least clichéd action movies know this.
It's not even ass-kicker mode to be honest... It's more like, 'oh boy, this is going to be rough, better put errything I got into dis' mode.
Tapping into willpower instantly does sound unrealistic, I know, but I see it as something like getting tired more quickly and getting better results, which does happen in real life.
Just one request: Don't work yourself to death. If you do and this remains unfinished I will figure out a way to hunt you down for building up my hopes for a brilliant game.Lol I agree ill help you hunt him down. ;D
Oh, another brief series of questions!I so want to sig that
How prominent will siege weaponry (ballistae, trebuchet, catapults, etc.) be in the game? Will we be able to use flaming ammunition? I think you've already answered yes and probably to these, but I don't totally recall.
More importantly, will limbs go flying and will they do damage to people they hit? I want to see a cadre of bandits flee in fear after the catapult I brought along for no reason scores a direct hit on their commander and his arm bitch slaps one of his fellow bandits from 30 feet away.
Will ladders and grappling hooks be implemented for scaling walls? Would a defender be able to dislodge them? And would someone playing an assassin be able to use said grappling hook to scale buildings and the like?
Grappling hooks made me think of alternative weapons such as bolas and the like. Are there any plans to include weaponry to trip up opponents/screw up their horses? How about nonlethal take-downs?
When battle lines crash, will there occasionally be pushing and shoving around prior to all out combat? For visual reference, when the Persians first engage the Spartans in 300.
Will your character gain titles and nicknames for his or her accolades/defining features? Like Leatra the One Eyed, or Mad King WraithLord?
Will character appearance change over time? Say, if your guy is always swinging that sword arm and charging through trees, will he become more muscular? If you got a king that does nothing but sit on his throne, will he eventually turn into fat lard man? (Fun fact, as a kid a few friends and I made a video by the title Fat Lard Man.) I highly doubt this one, as I figure it'd be nigh impossible to implement, at least without being too demanding, but I figured I'd ask anyway!
Is it apparent I spent a lot of time on public transportation today?
Just one request: Don't work yourself to death. If you do and this remains unfinished I will figure out a way to hunt you down for building up my hopes for a brilliant game.Lol I agree ill help you hunt him down. ;D
He doesn't look like he is stopping any time soon :D
Oh, another brief series of questions!I so want to sig that
How prominent will siege weaponry (ballistae, trebuchet, catapults, etc.) be in the game? Will we be able to use flaming ammunition? I think you've already answered yes and probably to these, but I don't totally recall.
More importantly, will limbs go flying and will they do damage to people they hit? I want to see a cadre of bandits flee in fear after the catapult I brought along for no reason scores a direct hit on their commander and his arm bitch slaps one of his fellow bandits from 30 feet away.
Will ladders and grappling hooks be implemented for scaling walls? Would a defender be able to dislodge them? And would someone playing an assassin be able to use said grappling hook to scale buildings and the like?
Grappling hooks made me think of alternative weapons such as bolas and the like. Are there any plans to include weaponry to trip up opponents/screw up their horses? How about nonlethal take-downs?
When battle lines crash, will there occasionally be pushing and shoving around prior to all out combat? For visual reference, when the Persians first engage the Spartans in 300.
Will your character gain titles and nicknames for his or her accolades/defining features? Like Leatra the One Eyed, or Mad King WraithLord?
Will character appearance change over time? Say, if your guy is always swinging that sword arm and charging through trees, will he become more muscular? If you got a king that does nothing but sit on his throne, will he eventually turn into fat lard man? (Fun fact, as a kid a few friends and I made a video by the title Fat Lard Man.) I highly doubt this one, as I figure it'd be nigh impossible to implement, at least without being too demanding, but I figured I'd ask anyway!
Is it apparent I spent a lot of time on public transportation today?
edit: the deed is done
also, an extension to the grappling hooks, how about good, wholesome ladders? and by an extension of extensions, boiling tar/ a hearty push on the people climbing said ladder?
@Man of Paper, limbs will not go flying, as he said that a few posts ago.
Just out of curiosity, will there be any form of counterattacks? Like, instead of just parrying a blow, using the chance to do a special movement / lethal blow.
As for tar/pushing - I'm actually working on falling mechanics and implementing them into the current time system at the moment. As you fall, for instance, you see each turn pass by, and so combat will go on, or arrows will fly past, as you fall. You can currently watch the terrain fly past as you drop, but I think it'll look amazing in combat! So pushing would utilize that code, and I will definitely include that; I love the boiling tar idea. Which connects to TRAPS... but that's a topic for another time :).
In the mean time, a rather long and detailed blog entry about ruling, the Rule skill tree, and how to keep cities in line:
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/11/06/city-state-mechanics/
Leatra the One Eyed
I like the idea of combat going on as you drop but will this also be a feature while stationary? I don't like it in games like ADOM and Dwarf Fortress Adv Mode where all moves which aren't yours happen in a flash and all you get are messages if any, it would be nice to maybe have an option to go through combat at a set FPS till your turn so you can see how enemy units are moving, the arrows flying, the big rock fired from catapult heading your way. Obviously there are limitations but DF's Fortress mode seems to handle it so it is possible, but im guessing it would be a lot more processing required but it would look cool.
Hm, so combat is basically just parry dodge dodge block slash parry block slash, other words, dwarf fortress-like combat?
Though what I'd like to see is some sort of system that prevents one on one combat from lasting way more longer than it should be.
Look at dwarf fortress, when you have two equally equiped / trained warriors fighting, the combat log can go up to dozens of pages.
I think there should be a penalty for a failed attack, for instance, if your attack is parried / blocked, and depending on how badly you botched the attack / how good well trained the opponent is,
opponent sees an 'opening' in your guard in one of the pre-determined bodyparts depending on weapon / fighting style (and vice versa, of course.)
Leatra the One Eyed
I would rip one of my eyes out just to get that nickname.
The update on city-states sort of fits in with the question I was just about to ask:
Will you eventually be able to incite rebellion within a city? Say you gather intelligence on a city with a food shortage. Would you be able to -
As a ruler, send caravans stocked with the supplies they need to the city and sway the people to fall under your rule?
or
As a secret agent man, use the intelligence as well as networking to locate people who are unsatisfied with the current rule and convince them to take up arms?
or
Have the ruler killed, either by your own hand or a hired one, and move to have a puppet/yourself declared their ruler?
Also, will we be able to poison water sources/food stores? How about sabotaging enemy siege weapons and defenses (gates, walls, etc)? Will you be able to work similar to the spy units in Rome: Total War, were you can open city gates to allow invading forces in? I just had the idea of how sweet it would be to be a spy/agent attached to an army and tasked with making their fights easier, so I'm wondering how well they would blend.
I think I remember seeing this a good half-year ago. I never really checked into it properly though.
Starting up 0.1.3b now.
Since this is trying to be realistic I just want to do a quick rant on ancient warfare...
During most of ancient history, pretty much up until humans collectively realized that it is stupid to stand in a square formation in the open when people with guns are shooting at, warfare was two big groups of people stabbing each other until one gave up.
Calvary and archers were just gravy, but the footsloggers did most of the work.
Yes, I've been reading through the blog too. Not sure how far it's worth reading back. I guess I'll find out when I finish it.
I've been wondering, when ruling and cities come around, will there also be the option of telling specific NPCs what to do, such as having someone who you keep around for political reasons, sending them out on certain tasks like going to settlements to communicate with its citizens; or going up so some schmuck in the street and offering a load of money if he can hunt down a nearby dragon den within a month; or some other example of having an NPC do something you ask of them, potentially with conditional rewards or gifts and things.
Also kind of depends on how much autonomy the AI has. Will individual characters have their own desires and motives, and be able to themselves ask things of other NPCs? I'm thinking that NPC motives are going to be a thing, because of rebellions etc.
Since this is trying to be realistic I just want to do a quick rant on ancient warfare...
During most of ancient history, pretty much up until humans collectively realized that it is stupid to stand in a square formation in the open when people with guns are shooting at, warfare was two big groups of people stabbing each other until one gave up.
Calvary and archers were just gravy, but the footsloggers did most of the work. Often it wasn't the army that killed the most that won, rather the army that didn't break won(and killed more people). That's why soldiers which could either scare the shit out of their opponents, or didn't break were valuable.
On a personal level, weapons break and dull waaaay quicker then you would think. Using your sword as a defensive tool is a bad idea, because it will become dull and useless(speaking of which, is there going to be degradation? Stuff between it's broken and useless, and full repaired? Dull and less effective, but still able to kill things?). Fighting was mostly body checking and trying to get around your opponents shield(or trying to hit them in a vulnerable spot/hit them period if they are dodging).
And that's all I'm pretty sure. Things to keep in mind.
I think you are oversimplifying a bit. That statement would make Sun Tzu very angry if he heard this. There is a lot more to it than crashing two big squares of angry men towards each other. There are things like flanking, ambushes, fake retreats, use of fire, using the darkness of the night (not just with ambushes), false flag, deception, decoys, exploiting the terrain and the weather, use of skirmishers, shock tactics, special movement tactics like pincer movement and testudo formation and a lot more I can't think of right now. There are even unique tactics that were only used by certain cultures.
Also, calvary and archers are crucial to army morale and everybody knows that army morale is the only thing that can win battles.
Cavalry also brings up a really important point: Do you have stirrups or not? Stirrups allow for true Heavy Cavalry, with all of the battlefield dominance that went along with it. Prior to that Cavalry were more of a Skirmishing unit. You could hit pretty hard with them, but not nearly as hard as you can when you have stirrups and a set lance.
Although even there it came down to a changing of tactics, as armies went back to large pike groups to fend off the cavalry that had been made obsolete by advanced Roman infantry tactics.
What will you be doing to ensure battles don't become repetitive? How varied will NPC tactics be? Will they adapt to your battlefield decisions? Will a civilization you've beaten repeatedly adopt new strategies in order to combat you?
Will I be able to capture Prisoners of War and personally torture information out of them? And how about public executions for criminals/enemies of the throne?
Mmh, personal vs impersonal seems like it'll be an important divide.
Most of the stuff you'd want other people to be doing, but some things would be more satisfying to do personally, like going to the chamber of the captured head of an opposing city, then beating the information out of them. And then beat them some more.
Looking forward to 0.2.0, and waiting until then to play it ;p The maps you put up on your blog are stunningly georgeous, looking forward to seeing where this goes.
Posting to follow the topic. The trees got me hooked.
Nice! I'm looking forward to test the language part of the game. I'm interested in languages in real life too. I'll try to be a linguist once with a character. That's what I'm doing at college anyway.
universal language, right?
Will characters be able to communicate at all if they don't understand each other's languages? They'll have to be able to at least show their intentions through some simple, universal language, right?
Will characters be able to communicate at all if they don't understand each other's languages? They'll have to be able to at least show their intentions through some simple, universal language, right?
You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
Well, we don't need white flags. Dropping your weapon and throwing yourself to the ground pretty clearly means "I ain't gonna fight you".
Well, we don't need white flags. Dropping your weapon and throwing yourself to the ground pretty clearly means "I ain't gonna fight you".
Yeah, I imagine dropping your weapon is a pretty universal sign of surrender.
You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
All the various types of trees look as if they're coming along very well. I think I remember you mentioning cryptography briefly earlier on. Will there be various means of encryption more than just the substitution ciphers like they have in the newspaper's cryptoquotes, or will we see more complex methods of friend and foe transferring messages? Is there a possibility of polylaphabetic ciphers, and will we see more complex (on the scale of programming, I'd assume) tactics such as scytale, which was a ribbon of letters that had to be wrapped around an object of a specific diameter for the message to be revealed?
If I was wrong about you discussing cryptography then ignore the above questions and instead pretend they're suggestions.
Will characters be able to communicate at all if they don't understand each other's languages? They'll have to be able to at least show their intentions through some simple, universal language, right?
You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
Maybe it became commonly used after all those French defeats... :P
You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
Maybe it became commonly used after all those French defeats... :P
A very common misconception, France actually has one of the best military records of any country, and they've fought in more wars than any other country in the world. JYSK :)
And even then, the image of the Resistance has been ingrained as the Badass Underdog (not a tvtropes page? Well then). You don't mess with a dude who is both dressed sharp as well as armed to the teeth (though you wouldn't really mess with the second one anyway).Slaves have mounted since before Roman times!
Have you discussed alternate mounts, such as bears, elephants, slaves, etc? And with elephants, if they're introduced as a mounted unit, will there be the chance to see them armed with ballistae? I think it was the Carthaginians that did that, not totally sure who was responsible for such a terror weapon.
France gets a bad rap because of the World Wars. Mostly WWII, because they were considered a Major Power and got stomped on in a very short amount of time.
Still the buggers lost a whole lot of those wars.You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
Maybe it became commonly used after all those French defeats... :P
A very common misconception, France actually has one of the best military records of any country, and they've fought in more wars than any other country in the world. JYSK :)
Still the buggers lost a whole lot of those wars.You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
Maybe it became commonly used after all those French defeats... :P
A very common misconception, France actually has one of the best military records of any country, and they've fought in more wars than any other country in the world. JYSK :)
And even then, the image of the Resistance has been ingrained as the Badass Underdog (not a tvtropes page? Well then). You don't mess with a dude who is both dressed sharp as well as armed to the teeth (though you wouldn't really mess with the second one anyway).
Have you discussed alternate mounts, such as bears, elephants, slaves, etc? And with elephants, if they're introduced as a mounted unit, will there be the chance to see them armed with ballistae? I think it was the Carthaginians that did that, not totally sure who was responsible for such a terror weapon.
To try to bring this derail back on track...
Are you going to keep track of nation's Reputation? If so, in how many areas? For example, England was renowned for its Navy but Venice for its Merchants.
Still the buggers lost a whole lot of those wars.You mean things like flags? Like, a white flag means surrendering or wanting peace and stuff like that?
That's not universal, though. Heck, it's been used as the main flag for several civilizations. In fact, it was the Royal flag for France in the 17th century.
Maybe it became commonly used after all those French defeats... :P
A very common misconception, France actually has one of the best military records of any country, and they've fought in more wars than any other country in the world. JYSK :)
Well duh, if you've fought over 160 wars, you're gonna loose a bigger number than those who've fought only 10 ;p France still has won more than double what they've lost, ~65% of the total they've fought in.
Did a little looking up. It wasn't Carthage, but the Khmer that equipped their elephants with large crossbowbow platforms similar to the ballista. And it also seems to be that they were occasionally equipped with chains with large balls at the end tied to their trunks, and trained to flail them around.
Maybe we should equip them with nuclear ordinance. It seems to be the only thing they've yet to be trained with.
Will elephants be multitile? Will I be able to jump on an elephant and goad it with my dagger?
Will elephants be multitile? Will I be able to jump on an elephant and goad it with my dagger?
Yes! And... probably. Elephants will probably be a 3x3 grid, horses probably either 1x3 or 1x2, I'm not sure yet. More likely 1x3, just for the sake of clarity (like h@h for a rider, rather than @h would be less clear, I think).
@h h@
h @
@ h
@ h
h @
H@H
HHH
HHH
On the other handCode: [Select]@h h@
h @
@ h
@ h
h @
H@H
HHH
HHH
Gives you immediately the direction the mount have. Same for the elephant facing north in the example.
On the other handCode: [Select]@h h@
h @
@ h
@ h
h @
H@H
HHH
HHH
H@h h@H
H
h @
@ h
H
H
@ h
h @
H
E@E
EEE
EEE
Will there be countering more advanced then, "Oh looks like I parried you, now I hit you because of skill"?
URR, why are you always releasing right after I go away from home+internet? Any hope for a Linux version?
For the elephant, that's all good that you have a rider, but where do you put your four archers/javelins (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Schlacht_bei_Zama_Gemälde_H_P_Motte.jpg)? :P
Clearly you must tie one to each leg.
Maybe you have bigger elephants for that?
---
So if you are going to implement a system of being able to see each turn and have units move simultaneously (like DF Fortress mode as opposed to adventure mode) how are you going to handle projectiles? Will you/NPC's be able to lead on targets? How will it handle misses and especially interception (or interception of missed shot :P ) will be interesting to see how due to characters having different heights so a missed shot at the guy riding an elephant probably shouldn't hit the dwarf standing next to/in front of the elephant. Will there be calculations on the projectiles to determine height and velocity of the projectile so it can calculate where and how hard it will hit what it hits.
Will you be able to get volley fire on archers to barrage an area as opposed to targeting individuals? Same for siege weapons?
Will you ban me from this thread for asking too many questions? Will that affect my free speech? Why does no-one like me?
How will trampling work? If you kill a mount, will their speed and height affect what injuries the rider will incur? Caltrops and bolas for everybody!
Will someone of high enough skill be able to swat or, at a very high skill level, catch small projectiles midflight? Will you be able to camouflage units and pop out of your hidey holes to assault the unsuspecting? If you've seen, I think it's the remake of Dune, think how the Fremen leap out of the sand to assault, was it Harkonnen's dudes? Been a while since I've seen it. If you haven't seen it, you should. And also use the Japanese Spider Holes circa World War II for reference.
Also, will we be able to dig trenches to impede cavalry? If I remember correctly, during a Roman siege of a Gaulish city they dug two trenches separated just enough so that horses wouldn't be able to leap over both, and the middle strip was too thin to land on. If traps are indeed implemented, you know what scratch all that because if I recall you're keeping that under wraps anyways.
What I meant by more advanced was choosing how you parry, or block, or counter attack.
In DF and most other games it is a reactionary thing that you have no control over, like your character automatically swats the opponent if the have high enough skill(or they are lucky).
We could get a bonus turn maybe.
So I was playing Kingdom of Loathing and it hit me: Will there be a chance to fumble weaponry you're not skilled with? Like if you're proficient with a smaller blade such as a dagger or short sword, and in the thick of things pick up a halberd, will you be easier to disarm/accidentally drop the weapon/have it slip out of your hands?
That's a nice idea. I suppose it would be mostly governed by Dexterity, and perhaps for each skill you have unlocked in a tree for a particular kind of weapon reduces the chance of disarm? I'm also really interested in the idea of you getting used to specific weapons - i.e. one specific sword, or one specific axe - and gradually gaining bonuses with that exact weapon. This could similarly tie in here - the more you use a particular weapon, the harder it also becomes to disarm.and then give it a name? ;)
Awesome. Looking forward to seeing the next version!
That's a nice idea. I suppose it would be mostly governed by Dexterity, and perhaps for each skill you have unlocked in a tree for a particular kind of weapon reduces the chance of disarm? I'm also really interested in the idea of you getting used to specific weapons - i.e. one specific sword, or one specific axe - and gradually gaining bonuses with that exact weapon. This could similarly tie in here - the more you use a particular weapon, the harder it also becomes to disarm.and then give it a name? ;)
Jolly excited to see the new version, good luck getting it out. The guidebook looks fantastic, by the way. I especially like the 'teaser graphics' for the shark ... :D
Jolly excited to see the new version, good luck getting it out. The guidebook looks fantastic, by the way. I especially like the 'teaser graphics' for the shark ... :D
Hey Ultima! In the new version, the world will generate cities and so on? I'm amazed with the "History" feature of all the objects, I hope this work correctly in a near future!
Jolly excited to see the new version, good luck getting it out. The guidebook looks fantastic, by the way. I especially like the 'teaser graphics' for the shark ... :D
Yeah, even the guidebook looks amazing. It's like a teaser list of features to be added :D
I can't wait to see the naval combat.
Sweet i can stop pressing F5 now! I just installed Baldur's Gate again though lol.
This different worlds with optional moons idea is AWESOME!
Will the moons have different effects somehow? A cult that worships the moon and stuff like that? I wish we had lycanthropy. The moon would work in an awesome way with lycanthropy.
BTW, main menu is really neat, like everything else. Game doesn't even feel like alpha because of the neatness of UI :D
Under tectonic activity:
"Mountains are difficult to pass through, but may therefore serve as a natural defense against hosSquare nations."
I think it's supposed to be "hostile" though nations that oppose me are indeed square.
Generating my world now. I hope to wander aimlessly for hours!
I was wandering, and climbed a volcano (which was absolutely impossible to do in the last version), then noticed jumping 28 levels no longer grinds you into a fine mist. Thanks for changing that system.
A question about the plants, will they, in future releases be able to help you hide from enemies, like climbing into trees or hiding in particularly thick bushes? Also, is there any wildlife in this release?
What's the other secret besides having a solar system?
Writing this as I play the new release:
Menu looks amazing. Already the best ASCII interface I've ever seen in a game. Shweet.
Since there are no enemies, I didn't mess around with the weapon tree just yet. Figure I'll test that later when there are things to stab.
Running and sprinting work great. I thought I was so cool that I'd totally sprint a mile on willpower - that didn't work at all. It's a good thing that willpower drains faster, though. If you're smart, I don't think you should ever TRY to rely upon willpower.
Traveled to a forest and saw some awesome looking trees (They. Look. So. Cool.). Also, climbed a bit, jumped off some 3 z-level cliffs. Didn't explode, so I was happy. It makes sense that my character can survive a fall about 3 of his own body lengths down, but I'm a bit worried - will the character be able to look and estimate the length of the fall before we decide to jump? I only ask because it's kind of difficult to tell how far down a cliff goes in a 2d top-down environment. Also, I will climbing trees be a feature as well? (Don't know if someone already asked that).
Transitions from high to low places and vice-versa look very nice too. Thought I should mention that.
All in all, pretty dang sweet. While I am definitely impatient to see the release the includes combat, I hope that you'll take as much time as you need to polish it and not rush the job. You've certainly done awesome work on what's there so far. Keep it up!
This game have a potential to become my favorite... PTF
The new version looks great, I am heartily impressed.
Some of the commands seem destined to follow the normal Roguelike design mantra of 'esoteric extended command lists are good' - Have you got any plans to have e.g. right-click context sensitive interfaces or other such things? A neat and compact interface would do wonders for the accessibility of the game in future, I feel, especially as it gets more and more complex.
To not be entirely off topic
IMO, Planetary generation should give more moons to gas giants. Yes, I suspect that it will not affect gameplay in like several dozens of versions but still
This game has a huge potential !
I played a bit with it and I so can't wait to play the "full game" !
Will you be able to get married? The reason why I am asking this is I want to see something along the line of 'dynasty' or 'lineage' from crusader kings 2.
You die, and your son, or even daughter inherits, and you get the option to continue playing.
Real quick with Stamina and Falling: It's my opinion that you shouldn't regain Stamina during "flight". I figure Stam is usually regained when relaxing or not participating in much action. Hurtling towards the earth is far from relaxing, in my opinion. Maybe have Stam regen reduced while falling, or have stamina regenerate but have landing reduce stamina depending on the strength of the impact.On the contrary, falling through the air provides (or should we say forces) more oxygen to your system. Definitely helpful for stamina regeneration!
Real quick with Stamina and Falling: It's my opinion that you shouldn't regain Stamina during "flight". I figure Stam is usually regained when relaxing or not participating in much action. Hurtling towards the earth is far from relaxing, in my opinion. Maybe have Stam regen reduced while falling, or have stamina regenerate but have landing reduce stamina depending on the strength of the impact.kind of as a knocking the wind out of you sort of thing?
So URR it seems like you inadvertingly with your three stamina bars... created the three qualities of zombies.
Zombies that get unlimited 1 bar, unlimited 2 bars, or unlimited 3 bars.
Real quick with Stamina and Falling: It's my opinion that you shouldn't regain Stamina during "flight". I figure Stam is usually regained when relaxing or not participating in much action. Hurtling towards the earth is far from relaxing, in my opinion. Maybe have Stam regen reduced while falling, or have stamina regenerate but have landing reduce stamina depending on the strength of the impact.
On the contrary, falling through the air provides (or should we say forces) more oxygen to your system. Definitely helpful for stamina regeneration!
Ah... no, but really. That was half a joke, and half serious. Falling, while not exactly relaxing, creates no stress upon your body (even less than standing since you don't have to hold yourself up) except the stress created by worry and fear.
Also, yes, Mark (Guy-who-made-URR :P ), you can quote that bit I said about the menu. I would be honored.
EDIT - Kind of searching for secrets right now, but I don't know what qualifies. I found some funny text, though: "You suspect there will likely be far, far more information on this screen in later versions." I liked that.
Some birds can relax in the air while flying. It depends on their mode of flight.
Will we be able to play as birds? :P
I think you removed the link to your blog (and download...) in your first post.
So, how's the development going?
I got this:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What are we going to face inside dungeons/temples/tombs/ruins? Also is there a short and general name for all these? :P
. Also I've already implemented the way languages generate entire dictionaries bit-by-bit on the fly, so it will always produce a word for an english word without fail, and there will never be duplicates in the foreign language!
Man, this game looks so awesome and plays so nice... but there is so little to do currently. Can't wait until we can gather a motley crew of bandits to raid a village.
Ok so I see this takes place in an alternate earth. So no supernatural elements.
What countries will be thematically included? I am guessing Central Europe.
The third flag... *drool*...
Really looking forward to the next release, which I'll pick up! :)
but the "undiscovered" (from your perspective) parts of the world will be varied and included as well
Quotebut the "undiscovered" (from your perspective) parts of the world will be varied and included as well
Ohhh no the Mongols!
And possibly the Romans.
Meanwhile, flag generation about 75% done. Some of the nicest ones generated so far:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Can't wait for my shiny new computer to get back to me, so I can play again. I only had it for about a week before I realised that something was wrong. Woe is me!
Would there be far away lands like Asia and the New World?
That's all well and good but where are the horrible ugly generated ones? :P
I shall post so that I might easier experience updates to this particular thread via the link which presents to me a list of all topics I have posted in which have since been updated.
I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
So a Troublador?
I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
So a Troublador?
What's it mean?
He put troublador, not troubador.I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
So a Troublador?
What's it mean?
Troubador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubador), courtesy of Wikipedia.
Sorry if this has been asked but will it be one language to a civ or one to a couple civs?
I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
How are you working the "distance from Europe" thing? Is the world divided into sectors, and the closest sector border to Europe determines the distance, or is it determined by the average sector distance? Do intervening, discovered civs still count as space for determining how distant another civ is, or do discovered civs help to "Europe up" civs they're touching? If civs are separated by seas or other major obstacles, does that increase the relative distance for Europeanisation? Will we ever be able to adjust what kind of civilisation inhabits the starting zone, for instance, setting an Middle Eastern start zone, or an Oriental start instead of European?
More like musical violence and sparking off political things.
He put troublador, not troubador.I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.
So a Troublador?
What's it mean?
Troubador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubador), courtesy of Wikipedia.
Unless it was a typo. In which case, pretty much. But not poetry. More like musical violence and sparking off political things. Under the guise of your friendly traveling music man (who comes from far away).
I'm glad you've raised this question. I thought about this for a long time, and whilst you are obviously right - synonyms do not transfer perfectly, verb/noun/adjective/etc order differs, etc - I had to weigh two logics against each other.
Firstly, to make realistic languages, they would have to differ in this way. I could make them differ in word length (easy) but varying word order, whilst still preserving the meaning of the sentence, would be immensely hard without a way for the game to detect verbs/nouns etc, and then reorder them. Equally, you'd also have to have the generator detect possessives, cases, etc, and that would be damned difficult as well. However, I recognize you are right, and that this would be more realistic.
URR, thanks for the answers. I understand that until -you- know, you can't let -me- know, but the overview is much appreciated.
Thank for the clarifications, although varying word order could be easy if you flag your words.
As for the flags, loog good so far, will military formation/towns have flag possibly including the one of their civilization/nation? (like the many Brit colonies having the union jack in a corner)
How are you working the "distance from Europe" thing? Is the world divided into sectors, and the closest sector border to Europe determines the distance, or is it determined by the average sector distance? Do intervening, discovered civs still count as space for determining how distant another civ is, or do discovered civs help to "Europe up" civs they're touching? If civs are separated by seas or other major obstacles, does that increase the relative distance for Europeanisation? Will we ever be able to adjust what kind of civilisation inhabits the starting zone, for instance, setting an Middle Eastern start zone, or an Oriental start instead of European?
Good questions. To the first one, about distance, I'm afraid the answer is "I'm not yet sure"! It might start off with an area, say 25x25 which counts as the perspective of the game, then any civ that approaches that zone (or a civ that approaches a civ that has approached that zone) will be gradually included in the perspective. It's hard to describe. As for the "starting zone", that zone should border on what we would recognize as Middle Eastern/Oriental, which is to say some of those civs might be known about, but not in detail. Again, in the era I'm thinking, people may have vaguely known that Japan 'existed', and the odd person might, by some strange sequence of events, have visited it, but there was no regular trade. That's the kind of middle-ground I'd like; non-European but still quite advanced areas will either be fully normalized in terms of foreign relations, and you'll know of them, or they'll be on the borders of the "known" world and some data, though not a lot, will exist on them.
Basically, I'd like world generation to conclude with maybe 50% of the world known; of that which is known, most will be 'European', some will not; of that which is semi-known, most will be non-European, but still quite technologically advanced; outside that, they will be basically entirely unknown, and could range widely in terms of technological sophistication.
Does it have to be THAT realistic? I thought the cultures in the game won't be that similar to real life cultures.
I mean, the place where the world starts genning is going to be Europa, the east of that there will be Arabians and further east will have Japans, etc. Is that how it's going to work? That seems like a bit too much identical to our world. I agree that cultures should be similar to the ones in real life that seems a little too predictable. When you start the game, you will know that the northern civs will be aggressive raiding civs and southern civs will have no techolongy. Moreover, if a civ is labeled as "okay, this civ is like... arabians" that will ruin the potential of exploring. We will know that they live on deserts, that they are religious, etc. If you make the civs more randomized, it will make exploring more fun. Maybe you'll start in a peaceful and technologically advanced civ which resembles the Arabians (mounted archery is king!), built on a place where winter seems to be the only season. As you explore the west, you'll come across an extremely religious civ with a powerful navy which resembles the Aztecs, built on a cluster of islands, threatening to attack your civ if you don't embrace their religion (Aztecs had polytheism).
You talked about how civs will have different modifiers long time ago and if you build on that (like, industrial civ, trade civ, military civ, a combination of some traits like aggressive religious civs, industrial science civs, etc), that would create some awesome cultures without going too far away from the ones we have in real life.
I think, when we first start the game, we should have an option to choose between the civilizations to decide where our nationality is and where will we start the game. You should have an easier time if you are trying to join the army of your own culture. "Europa is the center and more bizarre civs are genned around it" thing seems like a big hit to the potential of the game with this kind of history generation. I mean, if I'm not going to be a Caribbean pirate in a land of ninjas, or fight against a samurai as a knight (both of them never happened IRL) why should I play a video game? :P
I have some questions.
Will there be a map for you to use (minimap, Worldmap, Etc.) or no? im thinking you would try making it realistic and have a map in your inventory that you bought somewhere or created if you know your surroundings and have mapmaking skills. Also will this be like a mixture of Mount & Blade, Crusader kings 2, and EU3 but in a roguelike style? I may have suggestions for you later on or more questions but for now im done.
-snip-Oh, I see. "European" as in the technology and the culture that the most civs in the "known area" somewhat share. Still, I'd want the traits of civs to be more randomized but I guess that kind of extreme procedural generation could create some crazy things with no realism at all. I mean, it's a known fact that real-life civs which started on an island are much more unique (look at ancient Japan) since it didn't have much contact with foreign lands. You gotta generate the world according to that. Civs which are in close contact with each other are likely to share similar traits and culture. Close foreign relations usually equals similar traits. If some zones will have a tendency to have similar traits (like east being more likely to generate religious civs) will it be randomized? As in, a continent in the east will have religious civs on one genned world and in another world, in the east you'll see aggressive small civs and city-states always warring with each other (which you can conquer through by acting like a careful manipulation, diplomacy, and intrigue. God I love creating scenarios like that!)
A particular island more likely to generate particularly cultured civs,This reminded me of Atlantis. :P It would be awesome to find an alien culture that's highly advanced like that, even if it's a little unrealistic, right? (*wink* *wink*)
PTF.I read that as "Posting To Fuck" every time someone says that. What happened to good ol' PTW?
Don't worry, the civs are going to be totally randomized, but what I wrote before wasn't very clear. There will be no presets, and I want to have as many strange combinations as possible, but there are just a few particular features I want the "known" civs to have, but these are few and far between. There will be nothing that ties cultural, or architecture, or anything else, to climate or environment. In general I'd like all the known civs to be of a comparable, roughly, level of technology, and the only things in common will be things like sharing concepts of coats of arms (though I may one day add in variations on even that idea). I'd like arab-esque or japan-esque or europe-esque civs to all generate, and all varieties of those, and I definitely will *not* be forcing specific kinds of civs to appear :). I really like the kind of example you gave, and that's the kind of thing I want - but I do just want to make sure civs outside the "known" area - while they may sometimes of the same tech level - will sometimes not be. It's a tricky balance.I definitely think that the climate and enviroment should have some effect on culture and architecture. Cooler areas will have warmer clothes, like fur and wool. Coastal lands will have more seafood in their diet. Cuisine in general will be affected mainly by what grows there.
So is there any combat in the current version? I find myself with a desire to kill mans.Combat but no mans, from what I've seen.
How can there be combat without mans?There is youmans.
I am perplexed.
Oh, I see. "European" as in the technology and the culture that the most civs in the "known area" somewhat share. Still, I'd want the traits of civs to be more randomized but I guess that kind of extreme procedural generation could create some crazy things with no realism at all. I mean, it's a known fact that real-life civs which started on an island are much more unique (look at ancient Japan) since it didn't have much contact with foreign lands. You gotta generate the world according to that. Civs which are in close contact with each other are likely to share similar traits and culture. Close foreign relations usually equals similar traits. If some zones will have a tendency to have similar traits (like east being more likely to generate religious civs) will it be randomized? As in, a continent in the east will have religious civs on one genned world and in another world, in the east you'll see aggressive small civs and city-states always warring with each other (which you can conquer through by acting like a careful manipulation, diplomacy, and intrigue. God I love creating scenarios like that!)
That got me thinking, we should be able to keep our deals secret with other civs. Let's say my civ is a protector of the weak and the symbol of peace. There is one particular civ I want it to disappear (for greater good!). I should be able to sell a nearby civ which has a reputation for being ruthless and very aggressive (but not to me, the protector of peace who wants to help them!) some weapons and supplies or even give it to them for free (for bringing peace, of course!) but keep it as a secret with a chance of it becoming discovered. Maybe WE can be the ones who are out to expose secret deals like that (for the right price). Reveal the true manipulative nature of a so-called peaceful civ! Man, my brain is like imploding with all these possibilities.
By the way,A particular island more likely to generate particularly cultured civs,This reminded me of Atlantis. :P It would be awesome to find an alien culture that's highly advanced like that, even if it's a little unrealistic, right? (*wink* *wink*)
PTF.
Have you given any thoughts to religion? The 16th and 17th centuries saw a lot of religious turmoil and warfare in Europe - the reformation, the shia/sunni divide, ottomans and orthodox, etc. The papacy was instrumental in how the colonization of the New World happened, with the Treaty of Tordesillas, etc.
I definitely think that the climate and enviroment should have some effect on culture and architecture. Cooler areas will have warmer clothes, like fur and wool. Coastal lands will have more seafood in their diet. Cuisine in general will be affected mainly by what grows there.
In snowy lands buildings will have steeper roofs to shed the snow. Warmer zones will have shallow slopes and gutters to shed rain, while desert buildings can have flat roofs for ease of construction. Woodlands will have more wood buildings, while others have stone or brick or clay. Different building materials necessitate different building styles, as well. Swamps and rain forests will see buildings on stilts. Places with softer dirt will have more basements and root cellars. The hottest and coldest climates will both have small windows and chimneys, but for opposite reasons.* Some relations are more complex. Mediterranean buildings often had courtyards with fountains or ponds, as air cooled by evaporation would flow through the house.
*Small windows are keeping the heat either in or out, depending. Chimneys are for fireplaces in cold climes, and for primitive AC in hot ones.
Not sure if food will be much of an issue in this game, but cultures that live in hotter climates tend to have spicier food. Spicy food retards the decay of food, which is usually a bigger problem in warmer areas than ones in higher latitudes.
On a somewhat random food related note: Cheese is primarily a European invention. While making yogurts out of milk is common, the practice of actually putting it in a cold cave and letting it age to get real cheese is pretty regional for Europe.
I don't know that 'cheese making' as a technology needs to be in your game, but since it does make a fairly high-value portable food that is very resistant to rot while it's still in the cheese wheel it might actually be a notable food for feeding armies.
Hmm...makes me wonder if anyone has ever studied the effect of cheese on military rations in history before.
So, will we get instruments? And other more cultural than combat tools. That's the sort of thing I'm following this for.
Will more advanced civilizations have better roads, and will that affect deployment/movement speed of armies?
Will there be the ability for an infantry charge, I forget the name of it, where a foot soldier would loop his arm in an open stirrup of a cavalry dude and get carried in on the charge then dismount and fight like a badass who just rode a horse the wrong, and best, way into battle (I actually think it was called the 'stirrup charge')?
Back in somesuch BC Alexander had a land bridge built to connect somesuch island to the mainland to allow his forces to siege dat city. Would manipulating the very earth itself be an option in the (far) future?
Hannibal of Carthage was awesome, and I want to do all the things he did (march an army through mountains, using natural selection to kill off the weaker soldiers and animals, leaving only the toughest soldiers and like one emaciated elephant, tying torches to the tails of cattle to create the appearance of an army on the move, and flanking the unsuspecting enemy forces as they're scattered and trampled by a stampede, etc). You will note that there is no question here. I just want this to happen.
Would there be a possibility of something like the Holy Roman Empire, where a bunch of countries have a sort of agreement where they are not quite ruled, but overseen, by the leader of an elected country?
Will colonization be a thing you can participate in? I'd really like to have a character who becomes a governor of a small island and have to fight off brigands and pirates and crap.
Cortez (or was it Pizarro?), did some really awesome shit, even moreso than Hannibal in my opinion. Let me be him too. I want to take a small force out of their element, purchase the loyalties of some tribal groups, and meet with the leader of a tribal empire only to take him prisoner and eventually have him executed.
Also can I construct a pit to kick dudes into?
I've been reading "To Dare and to Conquer: Special Operations and the Destiny of Nations, from Achilles to Al Qaeda" by Derek Leebaert instead of just sitting on the bus and train and staring out the window while thinking about URR. If you don't mind the fact that it feels mildly textbookish you'd probably enjoy it. And it will probably give you some inspiration for stuff as well (most of my questions and my two demands come from my recent intake of knowledge from this beautiful book).
Even reading questions like this (even if it's a little crazy) are hyping me up for the 1.0 version.
Man, imagine the possibilities...
So is there any combat in the current version? I find myself with a desire to kill mans.
YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL MANS
This is quite cool. I downloaded it but there isn't much to do, looking forwared to the next version.
So is there any combat in the current version? I find myself with a desire to kill mans.YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL MANS
I'M WORKING ON IT
WORK FASTER! FASTER!!!!!!!! *Whipcrack*So is there any combat in the current version? I find myself with a desire to kill mans.YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL MANS
I'M WORKING ON IT
This is quite cool. I downloaded it but there isn't much to do, looking forwared to the next version.
Thanks! The next version doesn't have much more traditional "gameplay", but it should have some stories and histories that are *actually* interesting to read, and that's - genuinely - part of the "gameplay" I'm after...
What about land usage? In ancient china(and china now) there's not much land to farm, so they developed advanced techniques to fully utilize the land they had available to them.
But somewhere like Egypt, they just threw seeds around and let their oxen trample them. The only irrigation they particapated in was building large square pits that filled with water.
The Chinese had to work harder, and develop better ways of making food, because they live in a mountainous land. While the Egyptians didn't have to do that because they lived next to a river which flooded regularly, and was really good for agriculture.
Will land affect that kind of stuff? Will isolated people develop less weapons/be less warlike?(More likely the former)
Well, if you take examples of isolated tribes, they are usually not LESS hostile but their weapons are certainly more primitive.
What about land usage? In ancient china(and china now) there's not much land to farm, so they developed advanced techniques to fully utilize the land they had available to them.
But somewhere like Egypt, they just threw seeds around and let their oxen trample them. The only irrigation they particapated in was building large square pits that filled with water.
The Chinese had to work harder, and develop better ways of making food, because they live in a mountainous land. While the Egyptians didn't have to do that because they lived next to a river which flooded regularly, and was really good for agriculture.
Will land affect that kind of stuff? Will isolated people develop less weapons/be less warlike?(More likely the former)
In all seriousness, you are promising a lot and I hope you deliver. You've made good progress, and there are many active people ready to bully you into finishing this game, so I hope you will.
Do you know about a podcast called roguelike radio? A while ago they made an episode about designing for the visually impaired. Here's the episode with some worthwhile links included. (http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/10/episode-48-designing-for-visually.html) It's not a personal problem for me but I figured that it would be easier for you to include this in your design decisions while still in alpha. That is, if you choose to design for people with less than five full senses.
Glad to see this project going forward, still following with interest.
I'd be sincerely happy with it as long as you can talk to be people and they'll talk about their civ, culture and things like that. I'd consider it playable in an alpha level.
Also, yeah, for a a suggestion, you should have weather not only dictate things like "spicyness" of the food, but also what kind of food a civilization bases itself of. Tropical areas should have either Sweet Potato, Manioc, Corn, Black Beans, areas that are far from Europe but are temperate should have Rice, large plains should have well developed ranching and knowledge in meat preservation.
Also, thinking of that, if you could make a trase system based on a realistic supply and demand system it would be grand, think like, a city has 1000 people, those people need X amounts of food to survive, and they consume X units everyday, if weather conditions alter crop development and all of that, you could even have famines or so.
Will land affect that kind of stuff? Will isolated people develop less weapons/be less warlike?(More likely the former)
This game looks really promising, I can't wait to see the final version of it ! I really hope you'll "finish" it ( if a game of this scale can ever be finished ) :P. URR, I wonder, do you know any other language than Python ? If so, why did you pick Python and how much time did you take to learn it ? I am actually quite interested in programming and I tried learning C++, but well yeah it's kind of hard and I wonder if it would be a better idea to learn something a little bit simpler to begin with.
Anyway, good luck with your project !
I love the look of those trees. I'm waiting for this to get a bit further along before taking the plunge.
I stand corrected, then.
In all seriousness, you are promising a lot and I hope you deliver. You've made good progress, and there are many active people ready to bully you into finishing this game, so I hope you will.
I am promising a lot. There's no doubt about that. And it's weird, because no matter how much I say "I will deliver!", it cannot actually GUARANTEE to anyone else that I will deliver. All I can say is that I have no intention of stopping any time in the next decade, so make of that what you will :)
Now you're screw for a decade! :-X
Funny how Santa have a country in north-east : http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2012/12/Valid1.png (http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2012/12/Valid1.png)
P.S. We should stop a bit with those giant images, my poor 3G is crying.
Meanwhile, here's a work-in-progress screenshot of territories at "Year 0", ie. the start of history generation:I can't help it, But it looks like Capcha "CT.IT" :P
What if you spend all this time making amazing procedurally generated worlds
QuoteWhat if you spend all this time making amazing procedurally generated worlds
I prefer that to any game :)
I can't help it, But it looks like Capcha "CT.IT" :P
I'm also concerned about whether URR will deliver in the end since we haven't seen a good demonstration of actual gameplay yet. What if you spend all this time making amazing procedurally generated worlds but can't actually make it a fun game?
If he makes the most astounding procedurally generated worlds, I'll use them for tabletop roleplaying campaigns. I'm determined to behold the glory of URR, no matter what!
QuoteWhat if you spend all this time making amazing procedurally generated worlds
I prefer that to any game :)
Heh, me too. I mean, just look at how much Legends mode in DF is.
Still, I would want to create my own Legends too.
@ Tootboot: I fully see the concern. However, I genuinely consider an aspect of gameplay to be learning about the world. I think the idea of Legends in DF is a great one, but it's not very user-friendly, and detail is lacking; I want to get to the point where genuine narratives and stories are generated, or you can read about an entire military campaign and the ups/downs/defeats, or read a meaningful *narrative* history of a king's reign. Equally, every historical entry will have a quick "See also" function with it that basically hyperlinks you around the history database so you can quickly follow whatever interesting story you spot. However, as for more "traditional" gameplay, all this background is genuinely essential - I can't create dungeons until I know the history of that dungeon, and I can't create NPCs until I know what civilization they belong to!
I especially like that Atlantian kingdom you included in that screenshot ;DEXACTLY!
I think you mentioned (long ago back with the cyclops of old) allowing us to switch the time back to generation mode and come back as an heir or something is this still planned? I think watching you bring a fledgling nation to a prosperous empire then come back a hundred years later as the nation is falling and try to restabalise the joint.Switching back to generation mode? I remember URR talking about heir system but I don't remember something like this. However, If it got implemented it would be FUCKING AWESOME!
I should start taking notes as to not forget everything.:P
Dear God, its... like.. EUIII... BUT PROCEDURALLY GENERATED, this is revolutionary! My dreams are literally coming true!
.. do we get some sort of special christmas release? Im pretty sure that would prove santa existed. (and that you are santa)
Kinda like the history in Europa Universalis with the same details that Bastion achieve?
For those interested in procedural world creation, you should follow this blog (http://procworld.blogspot.ca/). ;)
So, will countries be run with Civ style gameplay? With total war armies? Like nations choosing what to research, what to build in a city, doing diplomacy etc? And then when armies clash it functions like Total War(Unless your not in the battle, then they just fight for anywhere to a couple hours to several days and resolve automatically)? AND THEN YOU COULD BECOME KING AND MAKE THESE DECISION, or the equivalent leader in a different type of government. Or a smaller lord and make these decisions on a smaller scale, possible with orders from your superiors. Will any of that be a thing(s)?
I especially like that Atlantian kingdom you included in that screenshot ;DEXACTLY!
I think you mentioned (long ago back with the cyclops of old) allowing us to switch the time back to generation mode and come back as an heir or something is this still planned? I think watching you bring a fledgling nation to a prosperous empire then come back a hundred years later as the nation is falling and try to restabalise the joint.
I should start taking notes as to not forget everything.:P
Switching back to generation mode? I remember URR talking about heir system but I don't remember something like this. However, If it got implemented it would be FUCKING AWESOME!
By the way, where will we start the game? Do we get to choose our nationality?
I wonder, what is the exact date which you started working on this game? It's just, I intend to kidnap the president of every country in the world and torture them until they all agree to accept that day as a national holiday. If somehow I can't kidnap some of the presidents, I will start a revolution in that country. VIVA LE ULTIMA RATIO REGUM!
Note: I don't want to risk an assassination on my life funded by the government or something. So, everything in this post is sarcastic and should not be taken seriously, including this sentence. (This paradox ought to keep 'em confused for a while)
some civs want men on the throne, some civs want women, some civs are happy with either; some civs want monogamy, some polygyny/polyandry; some civs have other preferences for how their royals conduct themselves
whilst historical accuracy would certainly demand 99.9% of civilizations to be male-focused, I'm actually quite explicitly trying to go against that; female players/NPCs can be recruited into the armed forces just like men can, and there is no position only one gender can take. It's not QUITE the Earth, after all. Well, sort of.
For those who do not follow UUR on Facebook:And as regent would we be able to set laws on such issues? RPing an insecure excuse for a king who bans certain religions and practices like drinking?Quotesome civs want men on the throne, some civs want women, some civs are happy with either; some civs want monogamy, some polygyny/polyandry; some civs have other preferences for how their royals conduct themselvesQuotewhilst historical accuracy would certainly demand 99.9% of civilizations to be male-focused, I'm actually quite explicitly trying to go against that; female players/NPCs can be recruited into the armed forces just like men can, and there is no position only one gender can take. It's not QUITE the Earth, after all. Well, sort of.
Are there other 'obvious medieval things' which you avoid? What about homosexuality? If the Roman Empire never converted to an Abrahamic religion, we would probably have had some very queer middle ages ;).
The game will be good ofcourse, but currently, there's nothing to do.
For those who do not follow UUR on Facebook:Quotesome civs want men on the throne, some civs want women, some civs are happy with either; some civs want monogamy, some polygyny/polyandry; some civs have other preferences for how their royals conduct themselvesQuotewhilst historical accuracy would certainly demand 99.9% of civilizations to be male-focused, I'm actually quite explicitly trying to go against that; female players/NPCs can be recruited into the armed forces just like men can, and there is no position only one gender can take. It's not QUITE the Earth, after all. Well, sort of.
Are there other 'obvious medieval things' which you avoid? What about homosexuality? If the Roman Empire never converted to an Abrahamic religion, we would probably have had some very queer middle ages ;).
I'm confused. I've generated a couple worlds and wandered around a ways, but the maps show no civilizations, and I haven't encountered any living things besides plants in about half an hour of walking. Am I doing something wrong, or do I just keep starting in the middle of fuck-all nowhere?
There's nothing wrong its just there is no Civilizations or living animals to find at this time. Sorry to tell you.
Oh. I saw a civilization descriptor via color in the map key, so I just assumed. So uh... what is there to do in the game so far?
And as regent would we be able to set laws on such issues? RPing an insecure excuse for a king who bans certain religions and practices like drinking?
While we are on it what of law making in general? Surely it would appease the priests to ban the whore houses but the people would be up in arms.
Also, even though we don't have anything to do in the game right now, I have to say that this is the most visually beautiful ASCII game I have ever seen.Though I'm a little disappointed, I have to agree. This is a downright pretty game. I'll be lurking in this thread for a while.
Welcome fellow lurker! ;DAlso, even though we don't have anything to do in the game right now, I have to say that this is the most visually beautiful ASCII game I have ever seen.Though I'm a little disappointed, I have to agree. This is a downright pretty game. I'll be lurking in this thread for a while.
Have you considered splitting the text and graphic tiles into different tilesets? I feel like this would be an awesome game to have a good tileset on, but I don't want all the text to get messed up because I tried to make the H's into horses.
Meanwhile on history generation, here's an example of a completed territorial world:
...
yep, that one hit me soon after I posted.Have you considered splitting the text and graphic tiles into different tilesets? I feel like this would be an awesome game to have a good tileset on, but I don't want all the text to get messed up because I tried to make the H's into horses.
Good luck with multi-tiles monsters...
I think we should have control over even (seemingly) little things like ban on alcohol and tobacco products, death penalty, education system, ban on weird religious sects, etc. Because all these little things add up to create greater things. While I definitely don't except a regent to be able to decide on everything in the 1.0 version, I hope we will have more control over things as the game evolves.
You can let the player regent choose what kind of a civ he wants. Do you want a religious civ? Okay, here you go. Do you want a civ of liberties? Done. Or you can let the player to decide on laws without labeling the laws as "This is a +Religious -Freedom law" or "This is a +Autocracy -Democracy law". For example, you can ban alcohol because you genuinely believe that it's bad for your people. You can increase the power of the police because you believe crime is rampant across your civ. And you can increase the privileges and the salary of your spies because you believe a claimant is currently raising an army to overthrow you and you need information. However, all these little things will add up and will greatly lower the liberties in your country, regardless of how good your intentions may seem to you.
Also, even though we don't have anything to do in the game right now, I have to say that this is the most visually beautiful ASCII game I have ever seen. I say this as someone who can't play DF with ASCII and has to use custom tilesets.
Have you considered splitting the text and graphic tiles into different tilesets? I feel like this would be an awesome game to have a good tileset on, but I don't want all the text to get messed up because I tried to make the H's into horses.
Good luck with multi-tiles monsters...
Meanwhile on history generation, here's an example of a completed territorial world:
...
Just curious, how do you check which tiles are on a territory's border? And how do you select which tiles to make a contiguous border (or rivers, for that matter)?
Whenever it needs to draw a border (which isn't a very common operation) it looks across the entire map. For each tile, it notes down who owns that tile, then it takes note of who owns the surrounding tiles. If there are any tiles not owned by that owner, then it must be a border. It then figures out the correct image to use based on how many borders are/aren't present, and which positions the borders are in. Very soon in history generation I'll be letting civs colonize and declare war, so borders will no longer be entirely contiguous for all civs. As for the last part, do you mean how do I generate rivers?
How will you handle contested areas?
how will policies apply and can we attack foreigners freely in contested areas? (assuming you are a member of one of the civs concerned?)
and how will it look on teh mapz?
Sorry, I meant how do you pick the tiles out? Just a long line of If statements?
Any plans for kickstarter?
Regarding your facebook post about religous symbols (http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2013/01/Religion-WIP.png). will they always be black and white, or will the religious groups color it depending on how/where it's being displayed? and they look awesome so far!
edit: messed up the link :P
editedit: would you have preferred this to be on the related post from facebook, or on this thread?
Can I just make the point that crucifixion was an entirely secular practice? I feel this point has been lost somewhere along the way. That wasn't religion, that was the outcome of professional torture workers in the justice system and military.What.
I think we should have control over even (seemingly) little things like ban on alcohol and tobacco products, death penalty, education system, ban on weird religious sects, etc. Because all these little things add up to create greater things. While I definitely don't except a regent to be able to decide on everything in the 1.0 version, I hope we will have more control over things as the game evolves.
You can let the player regent choose what kind of a civ he wants. Do you want a religious civ? Okay, here you go. Do you want a civ of liberties? Done. Or you can let the player to decide on laws without labeling the laws as "This is a +Religious -Freedom law" or "This is a +Autocracy -Democracy law". For example, you can ban alcohol because you genuinely believe that it's bad for your people. You can increase the power of the police because you believe crime is rampant across your civ. And you can increase the privileges and the salary of your spies because you believe a claimant is currently raising an army to overthrow you and you need information. However, all these little things will add up and will greatly lower the liberties in your country, regardless of how good your intentions may seem to you.
Also, even though we don't have anything to do in the game right now, I have to say that this is the most visually beautiful ASCII game I have ever seen. I say this as someone who can't play DF with ASCII and has to use custom tilesets.
Interesting. I hadn't considered that kind of "sub-policy", but it would certainly be an interesting direction to take things. All those little things are the things I want reflected in the existing policies, to an extent - they aren't defined as "more authority" or "less freedom". I'm specifically having it so that the policies do indeed say what the policy does, but abstracts like "authority" or "freedom" are hidden and under the hood. Maybe things that you can ban/allow should form a different category, slightly like mandates etc in DF?
I gotta say, it's a really interesting story.I have to respect the TES writers who write all of the books. Because they're to a pretty high standard of quality; considering how many books there are.
Small states, and city states, were and are much more prevalent then depicted in most games.
Well I guess im asking is how will you handle areas that both civilizations have boths claims to and citizens/colonists there?
I.E. Frontier areas, or areas where the population is mixed from 2+ empires.
and by handle I mean what are we going to be able to do with these proverbially land toss-ups? Like, will they be easier to attack, need less of a reason to conquer, etc. etc. ?
Can I found a religion, oh god the possibilities...
What role will religion play? Support buffs? War initiation? morale boosts?
Can I just make the point that crucifixion was an entirely secular practice? I feel this point has been lost somewhere along the way. That wasn't religion, that was the outcome of professional torture workers in the justice system and military.What.
Nobody ever said that crucifixion came about religiously. Just that they want to crucify people as part of a religion.
There are innumerable possible policies and sub-policies a regent could enforce but it could be interesting to have something like policy categories. For example, in the Religion policy category, we could have policies about religious sects, inquisition, punishment/tolerance for heretics, mandatory religious activities, converting efforts, etc. They don't have to have much effect since they will add up anyway.
But it may create clutter and increase micro-managing. Maybe sub-policies should only be created if they are going to have an effect. Like, mandatory religious activities may not be important and the player shouldn't have to deal with it but if we have a sub-policy option for dealing with religious sects and minorities, it may allow more different religions to grow in your civ. Imagine a civ where almost all major religions have pretty much similar number of worshipers.
So... I don't know. I'm just throwing ideas out there, hoping I'll contribute in some way and you'll manage to create an idea out of my rambling :P
Ban/allow as a different category sounds good. Considering how there is a crazy amount of stuff a regent could ban.
I gotta say, it's a really interesting story.I have to respect the TES writers who write all of the books. Because they're to a pretty high standard of quality; considering how many books there are.
Small states, and city states, were and are much more prevalent then depicted in most games.
Will these exist instead of the whole world being covered in giant, monoculture, empires?
Can't wait for the next version. Will alternate between DF and KoDP in between. The virtual history lesson of a world that never existed thing is just so cool.
What effect does the planet you choose have on worldgen?
Question on prosthetic limbs:
I know historically there have been a good few people who had their hands lopped off in the thick of combat. A select number of these individuals had "hands" made for replacement. They couldn't do much other than stay in their posed positions, but they did allow one to secure a shield in place. Will we have the opportunity to have an iron fist, and also peg legs? Mostly the peg leg thing though.
Oh, and you get dat book yet? I'd like to know what you think of it.
At current it has basically nothing. You can look at the pretty graphics and sometimes wander into a cyclops who will undoubtedly destroy you.
Basically everything is potential and in progress at the moment.
How so? They're supernatural in the same way any made up animal is supernatural. Not.At current it has basically nothing. You can look at the pretty graphics and sometimes wander into a cyclops who will undoubtedly destroy you.
Basically everything is potential and in progress at the moment.
Hey! someone advertised the game to me incorrectly. They said "No supernatural elements" Cyclops is totally supernatural!
So basically this is low fantasy. Fantasy without magic.Well yeah, otherwise it would be a history game.
Well as far as medieval prosthetic limbs go, Gotz Von Berlichingen had a prosthetic hand/forearm that could grasp both a sword and a feather pen among other such items.
Now are all resources and locations (except Atlantis of course) known from the get go?
Or can an island that has, lets say, Garlic be discovered?
I'm amazed I've never opened this thread before, this looks crazy promising.
Could someone give me a brief summary of the current state of the game, what features are present, and how playable it is at the moment?
At current it has basically nothing. You can look at the pretty graphics and sometimes wander into a cyclops who will undoubtedly destroy you.
Basically everything is potential and in progress at the moment.
So basically this is low fantasy. Fantasy without magic.Well yeah, otherwise it would be a history game.
Wait what. I thought fantasy was (and for now, other creatures) removed a while ago?
With the odd, possible, anomalous occurrence
QuoteWith the odd, possible, anomalous occurrence
I see like the Locheness monster in Simcity 2000.
Yeah you may see a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow but it is more of a bonus then set dressing.
What are the system requirements for this game? Please don't just tell me that any old system could run it.Any old system could run it. I mean, if you can play DF you can play this game.
I have difficulties with Dwarf Fortress if I don't edit the settings to make it so that I have at most ten dwarves to a fortress and no invaders ever. Does that mean I should steer clear of this game?What are the system requirements for this game? Please don't just tell me that any old system could run it.Any old system could run it. I mean, if you can play DF you can play this game.
Well, there are one downside - It's not ready, yet :)That's a big one! :P Well, I'll definitely be following it, looks awesome.
We've briefly discussed our treatment of prisoners, but what about the PC being captured? Say if you're a commander and your combat group is overwhelmed, would you be allowed to surrender and be taken captive? Will there be torture and imprisonment? If so, will treatment of a military PC be different than, say, a spy PC?
Little suggestion for this as well: Have a chance for an external prison break dependent on the PC's fame/prestige and standing within his/her nation. Maybe give an option to jump time to the end of your sentence/execution, and give an option to attempt a breakout.
As with PC torture, that one is admittedly tougher to work with. You don't quite want the interrogation to be completely stat dependent (the exception in my opinion is if it is tied to willpower). However, giving the player full control of their response to the torture would make it a bit gamey and remove the feeling of being forced to give away vital information. Perhaps combining them, allowing the player certain options depending on the current level of a certain stat, would be optimal. For example, a character receiving basic torture (possible starvation, dehydration, beatings) and having a high willpower would be able to "hold out", "give in", or "misinform", while someone receiving heavy torture (dismemberment, severe dehydration/starvation, being made fun of) or with low willpower would only be allowed to "give in".
That also brings in the idea of suicide. As we all probably know, many cultures deemed surrender a nonoption, their warriors opting to kill themselves before falling into enemy hands. Perhaps that could be an option during surrender as well.
Excellent!
Now just make it so that you can use reallife historical worlds (every year between [beginning of Indus civilization] and ~1500 having correct nations and characters) and you made my dream game :p
Still, non fantasy makes me a happy Dutchling :)
Fakeedit: ninjad! This is a response to the UUR's earlier two posts...
We've briefly discussed our treatment of prisoners, but what about the PC being captured? Say if you're a commander and your combat group is overwhelmed, would you be allowed to surrender and be taken captive? Will there be torture and imprisonment? If so, will treatment of a military PC be different than, say, a spy PC?
Little suggestion for this as well: Have a chance for an external prison break dependent on the PC's fame/prestige and standing within his/her nation. Maybe give an option to jump time to the end of your sentence/execution, and give an option to attempt a breakout.
As with PC torture, that one is admittedly tougher to work with. You don't quite want the interrogation to be completely stat dependent (the exception in my opinion is if it is tied to willpower). However, giving the player full control of their response to the torture would make it a bit gamey and remove the feeling of being forced to give away vital information. Perhaps combining them, allowing the player certain options depending on the current level of a certain stat, would be optimal. For example, a character receiving basic torture (possible starvation, dehydration, beatings) and having a high willpower would be able to "hold out", "give in", or "misinform", while someone receiving heavy torture (dismemberment, severe dehydration/starvation, being made fun of) or with low willpower would only be allowed to "give in".
That also brings in the idea of suicide. As we all probably know, many cultures deemed surrender a nonoption, their warriors opting to kill themselves before falling into enemy hands. Perhaps that could be an option during surrender as well.
Maybe torture could start to lower stats, otherwise there isn't a great reason to give in.
Unless we add......
MENTAL TRAUMA!
not sanity meters, sanity meters are stupid. like morality meters.
Well with heavier torture there comes the obligatory dismemberment. But yeah, I figure stat drops would also factor in depending on the type of torture. As in different stats get borked by different tortures.
I have difficulties with Dwarf Fortress if I don't edit the settings to make it so that I have at most ten dwarves to a fortress and no invaders ever. Does that mean I should steer clear of this game?What are the system requirements for this game? Please don't just tell me that any old system could run it.Any old system could run it. I mean, if you can play DF you can play this game.
Well, there are one downside - It's not ready, yet :)That's a big one! :P Well, I'll definitely be following it, looks awesome.
Oh man, this idea is damn awesome! Being able to get captured, tortured and maybe even committing suicide or being rescued. Then maybe your rescuer sacrifices himself so you can escape or something. If you commit suicide, you would play as your heir who makes an oath of revenge and do anything that damages that civilization. I could write a novel by just playing this game. I have to wait for a few years until the game reaches that kind of complexity though.
I will give it a shot, and I will let you know if my ancient machine is capable of running Ultima Ratio Regum after I do some testing of said game. Just as a heads up however, these are my computer's specifications.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I just do. Most of the games I play don't require even a mid-range system to enjoy and I still have fun. I wanted to try Ultima Ratio Regum because it too sounded fun.I will give it a shot, and I will let you know if my ancient machine is capable of running Ultima Ratio Regum after I do some testing of said game. Just as a heads up however, these are my computer's specifications.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I felt my mind slow down just by reading that computer description... HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?!
I just do. Most of the games I play don't require even a mid-range system to enjoy and I still have fun. I wanted to try Ultima Ratio Regum because it too sounded fun.That honestly doesn't sound that bad considering your PC is from 1980.
I have managed to generate an average-sized Earth-like world in about five minutes with my setup. That is about as far as I have gotten though. I am going to test out said world later once I pick a class I like.
-edit- I picked a female Quester and took her on a hike along the snowy plains and up some mountains. Each step took about half a second to a second at most, and about three to five minutes into this venture my computer started to have some difficulties processing all of the data in this game.
Furthermore when areas are loaded it takes about five seconds minimum to finish loading and saving the game takes close to three minutes or so. I would say that my computer's system specifications do not support Ultima Ratio Regum. It strains my computer about as much as Dwarf Fortress does on the settings I put it on for Fortress Mode when the fortress gets to about ten dwarves.
I will give it a shot, and I will let you know if my ancient machine is capable of running Ultima Ratio Regum after I do some testing of said game. Just as a heads up however, these are my computer's specifications.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I felt my mind slow down just by reading that computer description... HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?!
I haz question!
How will the player character be effected by the laws in a civ he/she is in?
For example, in Mount&Blade, it's more difficult to become a female ruler than a male ruler. Can we expect to see gender becoming an advantage or disadvantage, rather than just a word in your character sheet? I don't think most feudal armies won't accept women and Amazon-like civs won't accept men... maybe.
whilst historical accuracy would certainly demand 99.9% of civilizations to be male-focused, I'm actually quite explicitly trying to go against that; female players/NPCs can be recruited into the armed forces just like men can, and there is no position only one gender can take. It's not QUITE the Earth, after all. Well, sort of.
I haz question!so something like getting your hand chopped off for stealing? I like that
How will the player character be effected by the laws in a civ he/she is in?
For example, in Mount&Blade, it's more difficult to become a female ruler than a male ruler. Can we expect to see gender becoming an advantage or disadvantage, rather than just a word in your character sheet? I don't think most feudal armies won't accept women and Amazon-like civs won't accept men... maybe.
If the PC commits a crime and is thrown into the dungeon, considering the PC doesn't escape, will the punishment go according to the laws? Maybe, according to the punishment laws, we can get different punishments with different side effects. For example, some real-life civlizations used mutilation as a pushiment. I think the side effect is pretty self explanatory here.
And what about PC's religion? Can we convert to other religions? What kind of an effect will it have, especially when we are in an extremely religious civ?
1.5 Gigs. I.. I what?
I had this idea and I didn't want to forget it so I'm just gonna summarize it briefly before I pass out because of sleep deprivation.
Going to the court before being punished.
And jury tampering.
F-word the court, all you need is Judge Dredd!I AM THE LAW!
I like the planting spies idea like Sleepers (spies) in Liberal Crime Squad. We also should be able to use them for things like sabatoges and assassinations but that's probably the task of "active" spies. Maybe there could be two different types of spies. Active spies and unactive spies. Unactive spies generally are only about information and counterintelligence. Active spies should be able to carry out specific tasks you give to them, like enticing a rebellion.But spies don't kill people. Spies find information. There's a different word for the other thing.
Yeah, spies are only about information, not sabotaging. Sorry about that. Agent sounds okay (even though "spy" sounds more awesome)
Yeah, spies are only about information, not sabotaging. Sorry about that. Agent sounds okay (even though "spy" sounds more awesome)Spoiler: You were saying? (click to show/hide)
EDIT: That image is a lot larger than I remember it being.
I will give it a shot, and I will let you know if my ancient machine is capable of running Ultima Ratio Regum after I do some testing of said game. Just as a heads up however, these are my computer's specifications.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, spies are only about information, not sabotaging. Sorry about that. Agent sounds okay (even though "spy" sounds more awesome)But agents are just like, informers and people who shelter secret operatives.
I think "spy" would be the best term. Assassins could be a different thing entirely.Was the word assassin even there?
Yup, it's Hippie Earth, where all races, sexes and religions are equal and rainbows fly over prancing unicorns with gumdrop hooves!
Assassin was never mentioned, I thought it would be logical to split agents that assassinate into their own catagory like Rome: Total War does. Operative sounds like something in or after the cold war, not medieval in the slightest.I think "spy" would be the best term. Assassins could be a different thing entirely.Was the word assassin even there?
Anyway, operative sounds good.
Yeah but so-called "agents" also cover things like sabotages and assassinations because you can't just call them saboteurs and assassins. That... makes the intentions of that person and his employers a little too obvious.Yeah, spies are only about information, not sabotaging. Sorry about that. Agent sounds okay (even though "spy" sounds more awesome)But agents are just like, informers and people who shelter secret operatives.
I have managed to generate an average-sized Earth-like world in about five minutes with my setup. That is about as far as I have gotten though. I am going to test out said world later once I pick a class I like.
-edit- I picked a female Quester and took her on a hike along the snowy plains and up some mountains. Each step took about half a second to a second at most, and about three to five minutes into this venture my computer started to have some difficulties processing all of the data in this game.
Furthermore when areas are loaded it takes about five seconds minimum to finish loading and saving the game takes close to three minutes or so. I would say that my computer's system specifications do not support Ultima Ratio Regum. It strains my computer about as much as Dwarf Fortress does on the settings I put it on for Fortress Mode when the fortress gets to about ten dwarves.
I haz question!
How will the player character be effected by the laws in a civ he/she is in?
For example, in Mount&Blade, it's more difficult to become a female ruler than a male ruler. Can we expect to see gender becoming an advantage or disadvantage, rather than just a word in your character sheet? I don't think most feudal armies won't accept women and Amazon-like civs won't accept men... maybe.
If the PC commits a crime and is thrown into the dungeon, considering the PC doesn't escape, will the punishment go according to the laws? Maybe, according to the punishment laws, we can get different punishments with different side effects. For example, some real-life civlizations used mutilation as a pushiment. I think the side effect is pretty self explanatory here.
And what about PC's religion? Can we convert to other religions? What kind of an effect will it have, especially when we are in an extremely religious civ?
Yup, it's Hippie Earth, where all races, sexes and religions are equal and rainbows fly over prancing unicorns with gumdrop hooves!
So what does removing fantasy elements mean? No magic? No monsters? No undead?
Technically even having functional astrology is sorta fantasy.
Lets not think about the punishment for adultery...
If a ruler passes a new law in the country you are part of will there be an alert or similar notification? Something like a kingdom summary(If you pay attention or are an official) on law changes, the royal family and the state of the war(s) at the end of the month, or will it be what you over hear?
I ask because suddenly getting arrested for killing/drinking/public indecency soundsfunannoying, if it was legal before hand and we were not informed of the change.
I had this idea and I didn't want to forget it so I'm just gonna summarize it briefly before I pass out because of sleep deprivation.
Going to the court before being punished.
And jury tampering.
Doubt there will be juries. Will be judges and kings/warlords. Juries are only for deciding who is a witch! "She turned me into a newt!
Well, kinda both. I reckon that eventually you should be able to plant spies throughout a civilisaton (although primarily in the major cities, rather than the tiny villages) for information and security. Some of your spies might be leaking info, while others are just there to keep you out of trouble and whisper lies in the ears of the king.
did i ptw this yet? i don't think so. so, there, i did it.
I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
However, cults will have far more human-scale gameplay effect than cults - in fact, see tomorrow's blog entry for more on this!
So doesn't that make the game fantasy by virtue of it being set somewhere that doesn't exist?I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
So doesn't that make the game fantasy by virtue of it being set somewhere that doesn't exist?I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
Sorry, I don't know much about genre naming standards, so most of this discussion about "low fantasy" and such is going way over my head.
So doesn't that make the game fantasy by virtue of it being set somewhere that doesn't exist?I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
Sorry, I don't know much about genre naming standards, so most of this discussion about "low fantasy" and such is going way over my head.
No fantasy, in this case, means no elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, non-fictional gods, etc.
So doesn't that make the game fantasy by virtue of it being set somewhere that doesn't exist?I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
Sorry, I don't know much about genre naming standards, so most of this discussion about "low fantasy" and such is going way over my head.
No fantasy, in this case, means no elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, non-fictional gods, etc.
It's a deal. Than caterpillars and all the other shape-shifters in URR it is!
No fantasy, in this case, means no elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, non-fictional gods, etc.
No fantasy, in this case, means no elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, non-fictional gods, etc.
Arguable, but on other threads im sure :P
So doesn't that make the game fantasy by virtue of it being set somewhere that doesn't exist?I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
Sorry, I don't know much about genre naming standards, so most of this discussion about "low fantasy" and such is going way over my head.
No fantasy, in this case, means no elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, non-fictional gods, etc.
It's a deal. Than caterpillars and all the other shape-shifters in URR it is!
ftfy :P
I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Fantasy involves stuff that doesn't exist. Whether it be a fictional land or fictional creatures.
Magic and monsters do not actually need to be involved.
So, every fiction book ever written counts as "fantasy" books? And in this game, we will have a lot of fictional stuff and it still won't be fantasy. I think fantasy comes into play when things that we deem impossible happens... or something. I think it's a subjective matter.
(yes, poisonous. The whole "saliva bacteria" theory has been completely debunked, they have venom sacs)
I went through the entire thread, and the author of this game made it very clear several times that there will be NO fantasy elements, i.e., no imaginary creatures or innate abilities.We've just been discussing for a firm definition of what constitutes fantasy. That is pretty much the least immature way of going about it.
Also, I've noticed that people were basically saying, 'hey, this may or may not be considered 'fantastic', so can we have it in game?' with things that are clearly fantasy element.
I am baffled at how immature people can be at times.
I went through the entire thread, and the author of this game made it very clear several times that there will be NO fantasy elements, i.e., no imaginary creatures or innate abilities.
Also, I've noticed that people were basically saying, 'hey, this may or may not be considered 'fantastic', so can we have it in game?' with things that are clearly fantasy element.
I am baffled at how immature people can be at times.
I think that the definition of "fantasy" is kind of blurred.
Just stuff that doesn't exist? Stuff that can't exist? I'm not really understanding where the line lies here.
Thanks for the responses! Always interesting to read.QuoteHowever, cults will have far more human-scale gameplay effect than cults - in fact, see tomorrow's blog entry for more on this!
Hmmm?
About genders, I think there should be some differences when it comes to genders. When my character dies and my heir is a woman, I should face some problems if the civ is male-oriented and vice versa. I'm not sure about it myself though.
Oh yeah, I'm just saying that we all know what's fitting for a relatively historically accurate strategy game and what isn't by heart, it's just that the definition of 'fantasy' is a little... blurry.
I think the word choice 'fantasy' isn't exactly accurate when URR said 'There isn't any FANTASY element in the game', though I generally agree that its the best word to describe it.
We all have this firm idea in the back of our heads what is right and what is not right, and trying to ramshackle the definition of Fantasy for the game is going to be very, very hard, to say the least.
I guess we are trying to almost re-invent the term fantasy here, or rather, trying to re-define it.
I think we can say "THERE IS NO SPELLS AND DRAGONS AND ALIENS AND SHIT" as a short version. That covers most of the fantasy stuff.
Ah, why we are talking about this issue this much? Let's just call it "there won't be unrealistic stuff in this game" and be done with it.
Ba-dum-tish! No hard feelings. ;D
I have a question about fantasy stuff though. What should we expect from dungeons, crypts and alike? I know there won't be anything supernatural but what will make them interesting then? I remember URR mentioned puzzles (correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm... puzzled by that answer. Solving a puzzle in a roguelike sounds like a Call of Duty point-and-click game. Just seems weird and out of genre. There are probably RL puzzles too but I have never encountered them.
no magic, astrology,
I've played the first versions, and stoped until today. When fisrt creating a world, something amused me, there are actually planets. Not only restricted to th eone where you play but a whole solar system. But can someone clarify what will be possible to do with them inthe future versions?As far as I can tell it's for flavour later, and maybe may come up in religious business.
He said there will there be witches.Quoteno magic, astrology,
Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?
I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.
Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.He said there will there be witches.Quoteno magic, astrology,
Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?
I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.
Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked
Yeah, fake magic made up by the rich. :)Witches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.He said there will there be witches.Quoteno magic, astrology,
Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?
I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.
Like how witches have always worked.
Well, witches are in the Bible.QuoteWitches as in poor people who are better at something than rich people. The rich people then declare the poor person a "witch", and get them killed.
Like how witches have always worked
Actually it is quite complex though you have caught onto one of the major uses of Witch hunts. They are there to be used against your enemies.
I heard that the witch hunts in france was actually a anti-women measure to keep them pacified so to speak.
Though everyone always looks at the Witch Hunts in terms of "Religion is evil" when it is actually a lot more complex then that and for once, actually a bit more removed from religion (I believe the Catholic church's stance in this time period was that not only do witches not exist, as it goes against their teachings, but that believing they do is a form of heresy).
Though what exactly is "religions fault" and what is people "using religion as a weapon" is a hard line to really pull.
I assumed it was more of a 'poor people are evil and we want what you rightfully have because you can't protect yourself' kinda thingYeah, pretty much. Except it was less what the person had and more what the person did. Like if there was an old couple living on the edge of town who did medicine for people then a rich family might decide to have them tried as witches in order to sell their medical abilities to people who would have otherwise gone to the "witches".
I assumed it was more of a 'poor people are evil and we want what you rightfully have because you can't protect yourself' kinda thingYeah, pretty much. Except it was less what the person had and more what the person did. Like if there was an old couple living on the edge of town who did medicine for people then a rich family might decide to have them tried as witches in order to sell their medical abilities to people who would have otherwise gone to the "witches".
This is added to my ever-growing list of good rougelikes.
Mostly I am waiting for significance, plot, and intrigue
That's one thing games don't seem to do well: Feeling like you're changing history. I really hope this game delivers that.The primary reason I don't play MMO's.
That's one thing games don't seem to do well: Feeling like you're changing history. I really hope this game delivers that.
Hmm, looks like I'm missing soemthing by not paying attention to this.
On the other hand, I have tonnes of games to play right now. I guess this goes on my "will play later" list.
Mostly I am waiting for significance, plot, and intrigue
This is significant because its the DEFINING ROGUELIKE OF THE CENTURY other than df.
Plots are for beardless dwarves.
Im pretty sure politics involves intrigue.
Plots should be created by the players. This isn't a game where you follow a plot, it's a game where you create a plot.
While every NPC has their own plots they're formulating to attain their goals.
This game is all plots! Gah!
Plots should be created by the players. This isn't a game where you follow a plot, it's a game where you create a plot.
Plots are created by the players and carried by the game. If the game doesn't hold plot then it just doesn't.
I'm guessing you don't like sandbox games like DF and Minecraft. Games like these are not supposed to have plots
A game like this can't have a plot. I wouldn't really like it if the game had a plot anyway
Or you kill a lot of unimportant people.
After reading the blog entry, I imagined the scenario of a King's most trusted adviser secretly pulling strings to increase the influence of the cult he secretly follows. Corrupting the king (in a non-fantasy aspect), possibly poisoning him to keep him pliable. Similar to Wormtongue (Lord of the Rings).
If you massacre a number of cults, would it be possible for other cults to recognize your hostility to the "lesser" beliefs and immediately have a negative or hostile opinion of the PC?
Will religions evolve over time as our "modern" religions have to incorporate various different tenets/beliefs?
I've gently caressed the topic of torture previously, but forgot to ask something: with a wide variety of options for careers available to the PC after character creation, will there be the option to become a Captain of the Guard, Royal Torturer, or Executioner?
How about the other positions based around a leader's court or advisers? Being on a secondary or tertiary tier of the political system, maybe even lower on the ladder, would be interesting to play as you use your mind to outmaneuver your "allies" to grab at the next step up.
With dungeons, especially more ancient ones, will we see nifty traps? While many people think trapped ruins are something of Indiana Jones-esque fantasy, I know of at least one tomb in China that still isn't fully explored due to the danger of delving further into it. Maybe have some text pop up (You hear a gentle *click* or You feel something tug on your ankle.) before the trap activates depending on the trigger, giving the PC a moment to react before they get arrow'd/boulder'd/pitted/buried alive.
What about the use of "alchemy"? Something that some civs may perceive as magic but what we know is science?
Also, on a totally different tangent (as you may have noticed is my M.O. by now), will you be able to set up suppliers as a merchant or craftsman? If I'm a metalsmith I'd rather spend all my time beating the hell out of some hot metal than punching rocks. Will royal commissions also be possible? For example, if a civ is going to war but is short on equipment, would it be possible to see them request that local smiths mass produce arms and armor at a base price?
Will the medical "profession" (since it was practically guesswork in many cases back then) be open to the PC as well? If so, how will the more complex procedures be handled?
Keep up the great work.
EDIT: Changed out the yellow color. Holy balls, my eyes.
Man of paper, a couple of things you and URR have mentioned have brought up something I want to ask. If commissions and requests exist, it would make sense to include it in the same vein as trades. For personal scale, legal trades, a local market would be a place to deal in both items and promises (Commission a local blacksmith to construct armour for you and half a dozen good men in return for partial prepayment), personal scale, illegal trades could be carried out at either a location in-city or at a local black market or dive bar located in a dungeon or ruin (organised murders to improve your position, following someone to an illegal sanctuary to hold over them as blackmail, illegal drugs and other shady deals). Larger scale deals would generally require meeting someone much higher up the chain, or making a variety of smaller deals, like visiting a local lord for a militay commission, gathering an alliance of merchants to peddle your war loot, or meeting a tribal chieftain to gather promised support for an upcoming campaign.
I don't see that any of these need specialised interfaces, honestly. It seems to me that the basic structure of Give/Promise A in return for Give/Promise B would work neatly for everything, and provide a vast scope for trading, wheeling and dealing. Even better if you can namedrop other people to bolster your petition ("The clans of Anglia, Gallaway and Fife have already pledged their swords and pastures to our victory", or "I have received a commission and early payment from The Regent for one thousand swords, although I understand if his gold isn't good enough). The red words denote names and agreements (I think "contract" is probably the best catch-all term) that you've already made. Such a system would also mke it easy to keep track of contracts via an information screen, perhaps with tabs for military, economic and other types of contract, and also, of course, the person or group with whom the contract was made.
Quoteno magic, astrology,
Not even fake Magic and fake astrology?
I somehow suspected witches and warlocks would be in there somewhere.
I've played the first versions, and stoped until today. When fisrt creating a world, something amused me, there are actually planets. Not only restricted to th eone where you play but a whole solar system. But can someone clarify what will be possible to do with them inthe future versions?
I'm more interested in the quality of procedural generation for history, world, civs, religions, and pretty much everything. These kind of things are important if you want to have the feel of changing the history, which is what I want to do in this game. I really want to create chaos in a civ by assassinations and sabotages then see what happens.
It's turning out well I think.
By the way, will there be something like the Legends mode we have in DF? If you don't know, it allows you to have a look at everything in the world you created (and affected). From big things like wars to simple individuals who didn't really affect the history anyway.
That's one thing games don't seem to do well: Feeling like you're changing history. I really hope this game delivers that.
Think of it this way.
In URR, if you uttarly harass someone of equal power what do they do?
Plot is really the game to recognise people's actions and reactions and have the game restructure itself to the player. In otherwords it needs to construct a narrative.QuoteA game like this can't have a plot. I wouldn't really like it if the game had a plot anyway
It can have plot.
Though as you know the three requirements: Plot, Intrigue, and significance... are just the requirements for it to be on my list of "great games". Though not the only way.
-Plot: It needs to act and react to the player and construct a narrative based around that.
-Intrigue: The game needs depth and for history and characters to act in a way that isn't nessisarily about dirrect confrontational conflict. An ability to pry further so to speak.
-Significance: The game needs to have the player's actions to feel significant at least within his/her sphere of influence.
All these are linked to eachother and you either have all three or none of the three.
To put it simple, not having plot just means the game doesn't care about you. You are a completely insignificant nobody in a world where no one cares or does anything of significance. You may be power but no one really cares about power, they may oppose you but only because that is the rule of the world.
THAT is what having no plot is. Dwarf Fortress is definately trying to have a plot.
I think what Neonivek is saying is that the game needs cause and effect. In a "make your own story" kind of game, you act on the world and it doesn't act back. For example in Skyrim you can advance in two factions that don't like each other (like the thief's guild and near anyone else) and neither faction's members will dislike you no matter how obvious it is that you're playing both sides. This is because cause and effect in Skyrim is very scripted; if you steal from someone, for instance, that person will dislike you and the guards will attempt to arrest you, but after that the way people react to you doesn't change at all. Law-abiding citizens that really shouldn't want to associate with a thief (or a murderer!) will still cheerfully greet you as long as they weren't directly wronged.
What DF is going for is a little more complicated. You can do what you want but you're only kind of making your own story because the results of your actions are unpredictable. In Skyrim if you set out to kill a necromancer you're gonna kill a necromancer and get your quest reward, even if you have to reload a few times to do it. In DF you might kill the necromancer or you might die trying, or suffer some lesser failure like capture, retreat, or loss of limb, and the story will continue either way. People and factions will reevaluate what they think about you based on killing the necromancer, and the fact that the necromancer is dead will influence the fate of the world or at least the local region. You're strongly influencing the story, but the world as a whole exists and reacts independently of the player.
Personally I think this sort of thing is awesome. Steal your neighbor's silverwear and become the subject of bad gossip, kill the dragon and be showered in gifts. Assassinate the tyrant and watch as your civilization descends into infighting and everyone is enslaved by goblins. It all sounds like good fun.
Fakeedit: I spent a bunch of time typing this up and I'm posting it even if it overlaps with what Nelia said
Oh, I get it now. I agree completely. When I think of "plot" I think of something that's enforced by the game. Like how it's done in Skyrim like others mentioned. In Skyrim, whenever you enter a new city which you have never entered, you see all kinds of things. An execution, people running up to you and asking for help, people talking about something which you overhear and start a quest, etc. NOTHING happens when you are not around. When you complete a big quest (like completing the Imperial or Stormcloak storyline) there isn't a big change in the game like you should have expected too. Most games which allows the player to make big decisions lack this.
I'm optimistic about URR though.
I imagine unless your a big important person (or you kill a big important person) you won't have a huge effect on the world.
QuoteI'm guessing you don't like sandbox games like DF and Minecraft. Games like these are not supposed to have plots
That is just thinking small.
Especially since Dwarf Fortress is trying to put the plot into the game.
I am starting to think that Neonivek's definition of [ANYTHING] is not even close to the popular definition of [ANYTHING].A bit of a fix there.
I am starting to think that Neonivek's definition of [ANYTHING] is not even close to the popular definition of [ANYTHING].A bit of a fix there.
It makes conversing with him a bit difficult, because there is an added layer of trying to figure out what he's trying to say instead of what he's apparently saying.
This belongs in a museum!
It'd be neat to be something of an artifact (artefact I assume is the non-American English spelling? I try to use those, didn't know that one though!) hunter though. And if storing them somewhere opened up the opportunity for thieves. Hell, carrying them may get you targeted. Especially if they have faction alignment involved. For example, an artifact associated with a polytheist religion might get you targeted by vatican assassins from Mars who want to destabilize their religious enemies.
Incidentally, yes, artefact in the British English way of saying it (colloquially known as the "right way").
Complexity for the overly complex, occasionally unnecessary and generally over-verbose complexity god!
Complexity for the overly complex, occasionally unnecessary and generally over-verbose complexity god!
While this isn't the Aurora thread; I think it is fair to speculate that the reason scanning planets isn't working is because either the ship doesn't have a survey module, or you're doing to orders wrong.Complexity for the overly complex, occasionally unnecessary and generally over-verbose complexity god!
I am willing to take Overly complex so long as it has a good UI.
If I can ever find out why scanning planets doesn't work for me in Aurora Id be fine with it too :P
'would be really awesome if only it was playable.'
To be said chump
That was just an example, could be travelling to find halberds or those obsidian saw swords from central america (name eludes me).
You know what? That's it. I've had it with this *masterwork katana* bullshit. Dinky pinky kitchen knives get shafted too often in the D20 system, and it's time they got the respect they deserved.Fresh from the fridge, or so you have to warm it up lightly? I once cut through 2 layers of bread, 1 of bacon, cheese and lettuce with a kitchen knife, like a baus.
Ask me for example. I've been practicing with a teeny - meeny knife for 21 years, and it can cut through blocks of sheer butter.
Is there maybe a tileset (or how I call them due to other games, texture pack) that changes the graphics to those of URR?Heh, agreed. Probably the best ASCII graphics I have ever seen. Map's color palette is so awesome, you could mistake it for a real map.
Because BOY, this one has much more clear, yet still ASCII, graphics.
You know the old Samurai versus a Knight? The Knight would likely win that because the Katana wasn't made to fight someone with the Knights armor.There is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable.
I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do. You might just need URR's permission to make it, first.Is there maybe a tileset (or how I call them due to other games, texture pack) that changes the graphics to those of URR?Heh, agreed. Probably the best ASCII graphics I have ever seen. Map's color palette is so awesome, you could mistake it for a real map.
Because BOY, this one has much more clear, yet still ASCII, graphics.
There is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable
The katana should be weak to everything.
Because it sucks.
I like the idea of weapons having advantages and disadvantages, so then your adventurer (if that's your life choice) doesn't carry around a certain weapon because it has complete dominance over the others. Things likeQuoteThere is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable
While realistic there is also the sense of gameplay.
SHOULD we make, for example, the Katana (if it was in the game... which it isn't but lets say this was the world expansion and every country's equivilant was in the game) weak to heavy metal armor?
Ultimate Rate of Registry what are your viewpoints on this?
But scimitars and sabres tend to be made from actual high-quality metals. And are light enough to be held in one hand with a suitable grip. As opposed to katanas which were made of poor quality iron and were unwieldy and generally not much use at fighting things.The katana should be weak to everything.
Because it sucks.
The concept behind it is that it is a slashing weapon. Scimitars and Calvalry Sabres also use that concept.
High quality plate armour usually has chain mail and linen padding protecting the joints so even with a well placed dagger hit, it's almost impossible to penetrate. Up against a man in plate armour, I guess the man with the dagger could try to stab his enemy's face or slash his throat... which probably wouldn't work out very well given the dagger's lack of reachI like the idea of weapons having advantages and disadvantages, so then your adventurer (if that's your life choice) doesn't carry around a certain weapon because it has complete dominance over the others. Things likeQuoteThere is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable
While realistic there is also the sense of gameplay.
SHOULD we make, for example, the Katana (if it was in the game... which it isn't but lets say this was the world expansion and every country's equivilant was in the game) weak to heavy metal armor?
Ultimate Rate of Registry what are your viewpoints on this?riflesmuskets (?) should be able to penetrate heavy armor, but have long reload times, halberds or the like should be slow to attack, and pierce metal. katana's (and other slashy cutty things) should be quick attacks, but not so effective against heavy, metal armor.
Also, another idea that sprang to mind, is maybe "special abilities" for them, like halberds having a sweep attack, that swings an arc in front of you, or daggers allowing you to aim for the joints of thick armor (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what they were used for back in the day, right?) I'm not too sure about this, actually.
Couldn't they use heavy maces? Or other blunt weapons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=player_detailpage#t=368s
I used to think katana's were just showy but they work just as well vs metal as longswords even better overall, though hammers would beat both unless your aiming for joints in armour to poke.
Well the conclusion I was coming to was that both are pretty rubbish against metal unless you are poking holes in weak spots. I used to think katanas were pretty useless against longswords directly (as in katana would break) but I have been proven wrong on that.
Now there is some fascination crap about katanas but they were still pretty good swords overall, just not mythical legendary ones as they are made out to be.
Also, for some reason thinking of two knights wacking eachother with useless swords until they just fall over of exaustion just makes me giggle.
Will be able to see actual ascii generated art? (As in, not just text saying "This is a painting of a human blah blah blah" but a image)Yes.
Just a quick warning; most of the features regarding interaction with things are not yet implemented.
You can run around and I think climb things in the current release version. It is pretty though.
This belongs in a museum!
It'd be neat to be something of an artifact (artefact I assume is the non-American English spelling? I try to use those, didn't know that one though!) hunter though. And if storing them somewhere opened up the opportunity for thieves. Hell, carrying them may get you targeted. Especially if they have faction alignment involved. For example, an artifact associated with a polytheist religion might get you targeted by vatican assassins from Mars who want to destabilize their religious enemies.
I can't believe I didn't do this earlier, but posting to watch!
Also posting to watch
PTW
That sounds unnecessarily complex. There could be multiple languages spoken in a city though.
I think URR's excellent UI can handle any complexity. Just look at the screenshots on the first page of this thread to see what Mark is capable of when it comes to working with ASCII and ANSI. Generated art? That wins more than a few points.
In regard to complexity, I agree with leatra, UI looks awesome and decidedly un-spreadsheet.
A little off topic:
Will weapons be regional? I wanna travel to the far east and grab a katana. :P If this is the case will environment influence these weapon types, or will it be technology (hammers being developed against armour).
That seems like a good rival for DF to keep up with!
Is there maybe a tileset (or how I call them due to other games, texture pack) that changes the graphics to those of URR?
Because BOY, this one has much more clear, yet still ASCII, graphics.
I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do. You might just need URR's permission to make it, first.Is there maybe a tileset (or how I call them due to other games, texture pack) that changes the graphics to those of URR?Heh, agreed. Probably the best ASCII graphics I have ever seen. Map's color palette is so awesome, you could mistake it for a real map.
Because BOY, this one has much more clear, yet still ASCII, graphics.
Is there maybe a tileset (or how I call them due to other games, texture pack) that changes the graphics to those of URR?Heh, agreed. Probably the best ASCII graphics I have ever seen. Map's color palette is so awesome, you could mistake it for a real map.
Because BOY, this one has much more clear, yet still ASCII, graphics.You know the old Samurai versus a Knight? The Knight would likely win that because the Katana wasn't made to fight someone with the Knights armor.There is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable.
Pretty much the first e-cronym I really had any exposure to was WTF, so when I saw FTW, I thought of it as Fuck The What. Now every time I see PTW, I think of Post To Win.
Incidentally, MACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMACMAC.
EDIT: What I meant was: Would you mind posting something we can compile ourselves, as this might provide mac and linux users with the beginnings of a means by which to play. While I doubt it would be easy, it's much easier than trying to get an exe to work, especially if we're using OSX 10.5, which wine and playonmac won't support.
QuoteThere is an idea there. Cultures should have different weapons and these weapons should be efficient for different kinds of armors. For example, Elves in DF favor wooden equipment, even if they are ineffective. But Elves can still kick ass with their ranged weapons and mounts. Still, superiority of the favored race of Armok to every other race is, of course, unquestionable
While realistic there is also the sense of gameplay.
SHOULD we make, for example, the Katana (if it was in the game... which it isn't but lets say this was the world expansion and every country's equivilant was in the game) weak to heavy metal armor?
Ultimate Rate of Registry what are your viewpoints on this?
I like the idea of weapons having advantages and disadvantages, so then your adventurer (if that's your life choice) doesn't carry around a certain weapon because it has complete dominance over the others. Things likeriflesmuskets (?) should be able to penetrate heavy armor, but have long reload times, halberds or the like should be slow to attack, and pierce metal. katana's (and other slashy cutty things) should be quick attacks, but not so effective against heavy, metal armor.
Also, another idea that sprang to mind, is maybe "special abilities" for them, like halberds having a sweep attack, that swings an arc in front of you, or daggers allowing you to aim for the joints of thick armor (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what they were used for back in the day, right?) I'm not too sure about this, actually.
Fun fact: knight vs knight usually was fought to the point of exhaustion, as both were mostly invulnerable to each other. At that point, it was either a surrender or a coup de grace on the first one to fall :P
Will be able to see actual ascii generated art? (As in, not just text saying "This is a painting of a human blah blah blah" but a image)
Also, for some reason thinking of two knights wacking eachother with useless swords until they just fall over of exaustion just makes me giggle.
There will be - people will speak their native languages, though they will be able to learn others, and will presumably try to learn the language of the city they move to. One of the nice things I envision for languages is situations like coming across two people fighting in the forest. One of them you can speak the language of, one you can't. They both stop, and keep a safe distance from the other, and both shout at you - A tells you B stole something and you should help him, but B shouts something you can't understand, so you have to decide which to aid (if either)! In this kind of situation, I'd hope for other visual clues, or external information would help you make an informed guess (like if you've heard a news story about a particular thief, etc), or otherwise, you just have to take a gamble.
The katana should be weak to everything.
Because it sucks.
Why the hell would they take years to make if they're basically crappy breakable swords?
Why the hell would they take years to make if they're basically crappy breakable swords?
Crappy iron, and they're made for fighting unarmored enemies.
I think the Japanese actually developed steel for the creation of the katanas. I'm not entirely certain of that, however.
Actually I don't think the Japanese ever independantly developed steel.Started in India, the Arabic countries then spread it to Europe. The road that much technologies took.
IIRC it started off around the Arabic countries and spread out from there via trade and such.
Actually I don't think the Japanese ever independantly developed steel.Started in India, the Arabic countries then spread it to Europe. The road that much technologies took.
IIRC it started off around the Arabic countries and spread out from there via trade and such.
One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?
to my knowledge, they used iron extensively for weapons and armor. That much is known to me (ancient romans are particularily interesting to me)One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?
I thought romans liked to use bronze and brass for their weapons and armor.
to my knowledge, they used iron extensively for weapons and armor. That much is known to me (ancient romans are particularily interesting to me)One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?
I thought romans liked to use bronze and brass for their weapons and armor.
But i heard somewhere that the gladius was steel encased with iron, so only the cutting edge would be steel.
Huh, I didn't know that. So was bronze and brass used only for ceremonial stuff during the classical period?to my knowledge, they used iron extensively for weapons and armor. That much is known to me (ancient romans are particularily interesting to me)One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?
I thought romans liked to use bronze and brass for their weapons and armor.
But i heard somewhere that the gladius was steel encased with iron, so only the cutting edge would be steel.
Roman weapons were iron, but something about the process of beating the shit out of it made the edge have just the right amount of carbon and stuff. So, a kind of accidental steel. They had no idea how to smelt actual steel.
Huh, I didn't know that. So was bronze and brass used only for ceremonial stuff during the classical period?Use of bronze declined in the classical period because of shortages of copper and tin. Iron, on the other hand was commonplace. Iron weapons did not have quality equal to bronze, so Roman officers did have swords of bronze (or rarer, steel).
If you can compile it on Linux, oh wise and generous provider, then a mac-compilable version would shortly follow. Little differences crop up here and there, nothing serious, in my experience.
I am willing to kill and do all evil for this game.
If I knew both languages, I don't think I could resist the temptation to tell A that B wants to kill him and tell B that A wants to kill him then watch the fight, while eating popcorn.
By the way, nice interview. Not many facts I didn't know earlier but it seems enough to leave an experienced player in awe after reading it :P
Found a link to this yesterday. It looks like a fascinating project, and I greatly look forward to the point where there's some actual gameplay. I look forward even more to the point where it's finished, looking at all the things that are planned.
Downloaded it and wow. This is by far the most attractive looking ASCII game I've seen. Some damn fine visuals there friend. I really want to see this game come to fruition.
The resource options are a good point, along with the conversation on who fought with what.
I did a ton of research on this when I was making my Ironworks mod for Dwarf Fortress. So I know a decent amount about all of this.
Generally speaking, cultures used whatever was most effective for fighting the other cultures they came up against that was still cost effective.
The Japanese, for instance, had fairly light katanas that were designed for fighting lightly armored opponents. When they had to fight the Chinese/Mongols, they ran up against more heavily armored opponents and had to create a heavier sword with an iron core to help them penetrate the armor. In general, though, they were an iron-poor island that mostly just fought itself, and much of their fighting style was centered around that. Katanas have a legendary reputation because they were, in fact, made to very exacting standards. They had to be, because a poorly made katana would break easily and a broken sword is pretty useless. So they're really sharp and well made, for the most part, but not actually 'better' than a well made western sword. And certainly not 'better' at fighting an armored opponent, since that wasn't really what they were designed to do. Katanas are slashing weapons, and trying to cut a guy in plate mail is pretty useless, especially if he's got mail underneath.
Swords in mainland asia and the west were made much easier since decent quality iron was more abundant. Most 'iron' weapons are actually a very low grade steel, since pure iron is pretty worthless for weapons and some carbon almost always ends up in weapons during the forging process anyway.
India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys, due to some fortuitous iron deposits that contained impurities of Vanadium and Magnesium. This is why Damascus or Wootz steel was so valued, it was something that no other region at the time could replicate. During the later roman empire and the middle ages actual pattern-welded steel forging techniques became pretty common, but even those weren't as good as the steel alloys the Indians had. Before that, Bronze was going to be better than the vast majority of iron weapons but was both expensive to make and difficult to work with compared to iron.
Eventually those deposits dried up and India was back around the same tech level as everyone else.
From a game perspective, noting how easy it is to get various resources should help determine what tech level people are at. If you have ample deposits of Copper and Tin, bronze should be the favored metal for a very long time. Otherwise, Iron is more abundant in the world and will generally supersede bronze because it's cheaper and 1000 guys with iron weapons will probably beat 100 guys in bronze no matter what quality you're using.
As far as tech goes, people use what they need to and rarely beyond that. If all of your neighbors are using stone spears, you probably don't need much better than simple metal weapons and leather armor to beat them. If they've got chain mail and decent quality metal weapons, you're going to need some decent equipment of your own to beat them. If building an army strong enough to beat someone takes more men or equipment than you can afford, you probably won't do a whole lot of invading.
Ziggurats!
India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys...
Just a general comment - this weapon discussion is fascinating. I'd like all weapons to be valid choices - not have some (though we won't name names...) that nobody uses, but I realize some will probably have rather more specialized use than others. I've made a mental note of the pages of the thread we're currently on so I can return in the future :)
India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys...
That steel appears to have been produced after 300 A.D. The Haya people of Tanzania seem to have been producing steel from around 2000 years ago. While this is told through oral tradition, some of their elders reconstructed the forge utilized and produced the steel. Similar forges within the area were carbon dated to around the time that the Haya have said in their traditions.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fun fact: The Roman empire went out of their way to invade the British Isles because of the tin deposits there; to make bronze with.
Can someone please tell me why the download is losing the website every 8-12 minutes when I try to download it?
Creating armour from diamonds would be both a massive time-sink and a waste of time. No matter how you did it it would offer no protection, because of how any concussive blow would shatter it. For cloth studded with diamonds this would result in having just cloth, and, if by some majyyk you did manage to create plate armour from diamonds, it would be even worse because when it shattered you would then have massively sharp shards of crystallised carbon all over you.
That's not a good thing, by the way.
Can someone please tell me why the download is losing the website every 8-12 minutes when I try to download it?
This is probably one of my most anticipated Roguelike games right now, if not the most anticipated
Keep up the good work URR!
For some reason I read the link as "ultimarati ore gum". For a second I was like "What the hell is ultimarati ore? And why would you chew it?"
Anyways, will we eventually see thick growth that will need to be hacked through, and weapons that are effective and a-whackin' through plants like the machete?
Creating armour from diamonds would be both a massive time-sink and a waste of time. No matter how you did it it would offer no protection, because of how any concussive blow would shatter it.
But at least it would look cool. We are talking about an armor made of diamonds! Imagine going to King's party wearing one of those. You'd totally nail the Princess!
diamonds can cut glass, and that's the reason why there are diamond-tipped saws used in quarrying and the like.Creating armour from diamonds would be both a massive time-sink and a waste of time. No matter how you did it it would offer no protection, because of how any concussive blow would shatter it. For cloth studded with diamonds this would result in having just cloth, and, if by some majyyk you did manage to create plate armour from diamonds, it would be even worse because when it shattered you would then have massively sharp shards of crystallised carbon all over you.I was under the impression that, were you somehow able to make diamonds into armour, due to it being INCREDIBLY hard, it'd take a long, long time to break, and would probably be slowly chipped away, and fairly light?
That's not a good thing, by the way.
Diamonds have been known to shatter jeweler's chisels when they've been used on them. I'm not sure whether or not these jewelers had shoddy metal or what, though.
EDIT:I don't think it's even possible to create a diamond armor.MAGIC!
Well, I guess you could make it plated, but who the hell have that much diamonds?
diamonds can cut glass, and that's the reason why there are diamond-tipped saws used in quarrying and the like.
By 'lightarmours' I am talking about plasma armor. Which obviously would turn the wearer into a handful of ashes.Probably because a clear substance is useless against:diamonds can cut glass, and that's the reason why there are diamond-tipped saws used in quarrying and the like.
I don't see your point. Just because diamond is sharp doesn't mean it's good for armour.
I don't see jedis in lightarmours.
A) something made up of what appears to be mostly E.M radiation, which happily transmits through transparent objects.
B) something incredibly hot, which would cause the diamond to combust.
walking around with all thet bling armour careful of the nativesOr falling over.
the reason diamond can cut glass is because it's super damn hard. I may have made that unclear in my post. sorry 'bout that.diamonds can cut glass, and that's the reason why there are diamond-tipped saws used in quarrying and the like.
I don't see your point. Just because diamond is sharp doesn't mean it's good for armour.
I don't see jedis in lightarmours.
Hard != tough.the reason diamond can cut glass is because it's super damn hard. I may have made that unclear in my post. sorry 'bout that.diamonds can cut glass, and that's the reason why there are diamond-tipped saws used in quarrying and the like.
I don't see your point. Just because diamond is sharp doesn't mean it's good for armour.
I don't see jedis in lightarmours.
now, a diamond-headed axe, that would be useful.
now, a diamond-headed axe, that would be useful.Only if your executionees are made out of stone.
But diamonds are metal :DCarbon is a non metal actually.
Is this playable yet? What is implemented?
Is this playable yet? What is implemented?
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/downloads/
The exe runs fine.Is this playable yet? What is implemented?
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/downloads/
There's a difference between is it downloadable yet and is it playable yet.
How much of the game is there though?Solar system generation, world generation sans civs, some of the visual effects, and you can walk around and look at the game (which does look beautiful).
The problem I have with diamond armour is that how do you get it together? You can't just glue it together, and it's incredibly hard to melt diamonds today let alone in the middle ages.Like I said earlier, plates. You could fuse them with some metal.
Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.'Kay
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?
Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.Yeah, power of (bad) humor.
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?
I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.That reminds me of how art is created in DF. An engraver's child gets killed, he draws it on the wall. I don't know about creating art but having art that's based on the game world? That sound cool.
I remember reading a story about a dwarf that got shot in the leg, and was taken by a mood soon after. He made bronze plate legs with a picture of him being shot in the leg on them.Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.Yeah, power of (bad) humor.
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.That reminds me of how art is created in DF. An engraver's child gets killed, he draws it on the wall. I don't know about creating art but having art that's based on the game world? That sound cool.
Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?
Like I said earlier, plates. You could fuse them with some metal.
I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
Why would there be a tomb if they didn't care about the bodies?I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't particularly care about any morality attached to dead people; so it's not unimaginable that there could be civilisations where corpses are not treated with any sort of respect. And it's not as though the dead people care.
Nobody ever specified how elaborate the tomb would be.Why would there be a tomb if they didn't care about the bodies?I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't particularly care about any morality attached to dead people; so it's not unimaginable that there could be civilisations where corpses are not treated with any sort of respect. And it's not as though the dead people care.
Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?
Not when someone is wrong on the internet!
Name one culture that places no value what so ever on corpses.I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't particularly care about any morality attached to dead people; so it's not unimaginable that there could be civilisations where corpses are not treated with any sort of respect. And it's not as though the dead people care.
You would still want to dump corpses in a mound or something unless you like Black Deaths.I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't particularly care about any morality attached to dead people; so it's not unimaginable that there could be civilisations where corpses are not treated with any sort of respect. And it's not as though the dead people care.
Can we agree it's "Dedicated place to store dead people"?Yeah lets go with that.
I forgive you. That was quite fun to watch.Random joke leads to page long discussion on the viability of diamond armor.
Goddamit guys can we talk about something related to the game?
Not when someone is wrong on the internet!
+1 :P
Sorry guy for starting this nonsense. I'll redeem myself with this video (http://thepunkeffect.com/?p=9364) on the subject.
How much of the game is there though?Solar system generation, world generation sans civs, some of the visual effects, and you can walk around and look at the game (which does look beautiful).
It's the first ASCII game I've ever thought genuinely looked good. I especially like how the shading is done, especially where there are lotsa trees around.
'Kay
Can we pick up the mummies in tombs, I wanna throw them about and stuff. You could create a mummy collection and get angryprotesterspeasants without enough work calling you a grave defiler.
(That was worryingly the first thing that came to mind.)
I assume that there'd be huge ramifications for defiling any sort of tomb connected to a still-existing civilization or religion, and definitely get BadBoy points with any family related to the corpse. I'd like to see the PC eventually able to create works of art. Using Character experiences, historical references, and a random generator dealy to create what the works are specifically.
Nobody ever specified how elaborate the tomb would be.Why would there be a tomb if they didn't care about the bodies?
Unless their cultural values place no value in corpses.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't particularly care about any morality attached to dead people; so it's not unimaginable that there could be civilisations where corpses are not treated with any sort of respect. And it's not as though the dead people care.
It could just be a place to put bodies without them uglying up the scenery.
This game sounds like a great idea, I especially like the idea of ruling a kingdom/republic from 'first person', ordering invasions and construction projects, and then being able to visit conquered/built up areas. Also ordering arrests, threatening/bribing senate members etc., all in person. 8)
Kinnda sounds like crusader kings II actually, but with cool factor that you can actually visit any location and person in the world, and also play as adventurer/possibly merchant?
Question for developer: Will there be a trade system, and how will it be handled? Will there be production of resources (supply), i.e. mines, farms, plantations, pastures etc., that can be both visited (and owned!!), and demand for those resources by city populations? Will there be import/export of resources from other civs - trade system that influences both economy and diplomacy?
I suppose I could vary how civilizations choose to bury their dead. Or at least dispose of them. I have different methods of execution, so I see no reason why I couldn't do the same for burial. At sea, burning, tomb, graveyard, etc etc...But that would also influence their reaction to defiling. I'm sure people that throw their relatives' corpses to dog dont mind if I borrow it.
This game sounds like a great idea, I especially like the idea of ruling a kingdom/republic from 'first person', ordering invasions and construction projects, and then being able to visit conquered/built up areas. Also ordering arrests, threatening/bribing senate members etc., all in person. 8)
Kinnda sounds like crusader kings II actually, but with cool factor that you can actually visit any location and person in the world, and also play as adventurer/possibly merchant?
Question for developer: Will there be a trade system, and how will it be handled? Will there be production of resources (supply), i.e. mines, farms, plantations, pastures etc., that can be both visited (and owned!!), and demand for those resources by city populations? Will there be import/export of resources from other civs - trade system that influences both economy and diplomacy?
Thank you! Yes, that's the eventual goal. I'm working on the "exploration" aspects first, in gameplay terms, before I then start working on cities, NPCs, etc. Trade I intend to split into barter, and trade - bartering being just exchanging items, trade being money for items, or money for money (I'd like to implement some kind of system for exchange rates between currencies, etc). I don't know if resource areas can be owned yet, as I want to abstract out some of the "construction" aspects (as DF does that kind of thing) but resources will contribute to how many people an empire can support, what armies it can field, etc. Importing and exporting is something I need to work on in history generation relatively soon, so I might do a blog entry about that when I've got it implemented. Pretty much everything will go into history generation first, and then into the 'real' game :).
Name one culture that places no value what so ever on corpses.
As Civilization taught us, Cerminoal burial is important.
Side note: Actually fighting involves very little parrying, because weapons lose their edge and break much easier then you would expect. The only weapon I can think of that is meant to be consistently used to block a blow is the rapier, and that works because it has no edge and is very flexible.
Side note: Actually fighting involves very little parrying, because weapons lose their edge and break much easier then you would expect. The only weapon I can think of that is meant to be consistently used to block a blow is the rapier, and that works because it has no edge and is very flexible.When the wielder only has a sword theres much parrying. Any 'blocking' would be deflective rather than trying to stop the attack unless one has a heavier kind of sword and it is never edge to edge.
Has for the so claiment "edge", on very big swords it doens't matter anyway, the blow it mainly concussive anyway, relying more of speed/mass to chop people. Kinda like woodaxes, they aren't "sharp", but still cut because they have a lot of force.
True, but one would still keep a sharp edge to be able to slice when needed. except for that scottish or irish one that was just simply huge, forgot the name.
Claymore?Nope, there's an even larger one.
Zweihander?That and the claymore is basically the same size :P
I was always curious why it was called a bastard sword. I didn't expect it to actually make sense, for some reason.It's called a bastard sword because Jon Snow uses one, and he is a bastard.
bastard sword is a neologism and also refers to regular ol' longswords in contexts where the term longsword describes other weaponsRight. nowadays the name longsword seems mostly used for one handed swords or swords where one could use the second hand to give some extra force
I was always curious why it was called a bastard sword. I didn't expect it to actually make sense, for some reason.I'm with you on that one. This has got to be one of the most educational threads in this forum. :P
The sword you are thinking of is a Flamberge.Nope. Thats also german and of a much later time...
Looking at this (and some other stuff I have seen in game), it's fair to say that this roguelike is going to be the most graphically beautiful roguelike ever.I've mostly only tried the more famous ones, but i would say that this is the only 'pretty' one :P
Man, we sure love derailing threads.FTFYSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Looking at this (and some other stuff I have seen in game), it's fair to say that this roguelike is going to be the sexiest roguelike ever.
Zweihander?That and the claymore is basically the same size :P
I just recall reading about an almost impractically large sword used quite far back, but because it's so unwieldy it didn't get to be used for long.
Zweihander?That and the claymore is basically the same size :P
I just recall reading about an almost impractically large sword used quite far back, but because it's so unwieldy it didn't get to be used for long.
Well, there is a game that exists.it's a beta version of a game made by a B12 member,
It's nowhere near finished, but it is still URR.
That doesn't mean that it can't go here.Well, there is a game that exists.it's a beta version of a game made by a B12 member,
It's nowhere near finished, but it is still URR.
Now you're going down in size :P
I don't know what the crazy bastard sword is, but a normal one is one and a half hander, thus a bastard of the two hander & the one handed.
This section is filled with beta and WIP games.That doesn't mean that it can't go here.Well, there is a game that exists.it's a beta version of a game made by a B12 member,
It's nowhere near finished, but it is still URR.
This section is fine for beta or wip games, unless they're being made by a B12 member, there is a board reserved for that.Have you seen the name of the OP ::)
I'm not sure if it's just me, but there looks to be something up with your website's formatting. There's a big but empty banner on the top of the page.
I did like that generated creation story though. It feels like the flow is a little odd, but it's a really big achievement to make something that can generate a story that coherent.
This game is so consistently beautiful. Hurrah!
Thanks for reply :)
What I meant by owning resource areas was simply owning them as a source of income/materials to sell, while still leaving actual construction of such sites abstracted out. I think it would be interesting to play as a wealthy merchant and owner of many mines/plantations through kingdom, eventually being so rich that you can field own armies of mercenaries and influencing policies of the kingdom from the shadows.
On this forkknife's blog entry: That sun looks beautiful. This is proof that a roguelike can look stunning.
On player-created art: I know you've been dipping into the fast-forwarding time concept, and think this'd be another great thing to implement it with should you decide to. Say, for example, I have a skilled sculptor. Once I get all the materials and somesuch, I decide on the amount of time I want to dedicate to working on it, as well as the general subject (I'll also expand on this idea in a second). The overall quality would depend on the character's skill, the content on their choice, and the size and/or detail on the time dedicated.
To elaborate on the choosing of a general subject, I don't know if it'd be easy, since events would have to be neatly sorted, but have multiple categories with subcategories to choose from. For example:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Of course that'd need to be heavily worked on. In the example list Personal: Battles would just be a more specific area of History: Battles. Unless of course "History" would include only the time before the character was splatted out into the world.
Looking at this (and some other stuff I have seen in game), it's fair to say that this roguelike is going to be the most graphically beautiful roguelike ever.I've mostly only tried the more famous ones, but i would say that this is the only 'pretty' one :P
That's a way of putting it. The symbol has some nice, sexy curves.
I'm having trouble launching the game. After I extract the files to a folder and launch either of the two applications that came with the download it gives me an error about configuration.
I think the problem is that your colour scheme is orange-red Areo. Try something close to beige and get back to us.
That actually worked! I'm really surprised. I thought you were being sarcastic but I changed it back to default and it worked.
That exact thing happened to me in another application. It took hours of frustration to figure out that the problem was custom colors. Figuring that out was frustrating too, since I was trying every insanely complex solution I could think of long before it.From what I've heard, 8 is so much worse with compatibility issues.
God, I miss Windows XP.
That actually worked! I'm really surprised. I thought you were being sarcastic but I changed it back to default and it worked.
Man, I hope somebody records your lecture at the IRDC
Man, I hope somebody records your lecture at the IRDC, because I am tied with work down here in Spain.
First time a convention of personal interest appears in Poland and I had already emigrated.
Yeah, me too. Even the title strikes curiosity: "Procedural Art"
URR looks very nice so far, I can't wait for civilizations so I can recruit people.
You may notice that the most recent post by the OP is less than a week ago :PThings happen in a week.
I must ask, though, am I just unlucky or does the game have any functioning civilizations yet?No civs yet.
That would explain it.I must ask, though, am I just unlucky or does the game have any functioning civilizations yet?No civs yet.
That would explain it.I must ask, though, am I just unlucky or does the game have any functioning civilizations yet?No civs yet.
Are there any other units?
Procedural hand drawing? :P
Hey there. Found this, thought I might post the link. It's a collection of essays which address different metallurgical processes in different time periods, and how different metals were used for different weapons in different cultures. Along with other historical concepts. It's worth checking out for sure.
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/ (http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/)
You may notice that the most recent post by the OP is less than a week ago :PThings happen in a week.
Like... Okay really I just have no sense of time. :-[
URR, if you don't post every 24h, I'll rape, eat and kill (in that order) one kitten every hour!
@Glloyd, very interesting and well written, thank.
Downloading now. Awww yeah.
Ohmygoditgenerateswholesolarsystems
I must ask, though, am I just unlucky or does the game have any functioning civilizations yet?
Not in 0.2 but in 0.1 were some, if i remember correctly
Dropping in for the first time, the project sounds very interesting. Is there a list of features already in the game ? In short, what can be done in the current version, how far along in development is the game ? (some description of the current state of the game would probably compliment the OP well)
Nope; not yet. Civilizations WILL exist for the next version in the history and the encyclopedia, but cities and things are still a way off. Which is to say, to clarify - you will be able to read about civilizations, but their actual structures will not exist. For the most part.heh, so it's going to be like you're the lone survivor of some horrible, cataclysmic event, who can only read about the past?
Like Minecraft with backstory!Nope; not yet. Civilizations WILL exist for the next version in the history and the encyclopedia, but cities and things are still a way off. Which is to say, to clarify - you will be able to read about civilizations, but their actual structures will not exist. For the most part.heh, so it's going to be like you're the lone survivor of some horrible, cataclysmic event, who can only read about the past?
Nope; not yet. Civilizations WILL exist for the next version in the history and the encyclopedia, but cities and things are still a way off. Which is to say, to clarify - you will be able to read about civilizations, but their actual structures will not exist. For the most part.heh, so it's going to be like you're the lone survivor of some horrible, cataclysmic event, who can only read about the past?
:owell, in a month or so, but that's not too far into the future.
Glad this is being actively developed again.
Nice blog update! Can't say I wholly agree with you though ;). StarCraft 2 would probably fail your 'short term luck' test.
:o
Glad this is being actively developed again.
SC2 is lot more like chess, very few openings and counter opening. Then mid-game where anything can happen and you must transition your built to beat your opponent, manage economic, researches, army composition and positioning. Then if it goes late game, it's a matter of who's gonna get the most efficient so to not run dry of resources.
Their is lot of short term "luck", but SC2 players don't like luck (or sometime, I love the widow mines), and in an even battle the best "micro" always win.
:owell, in a month or so, but that's not too far into the future.
Glad this is being actively developed again.
That was a little stupid of me, didn't read the whole thing. I must of been blinded by the hype.
Did you know that I now use Hype regularly because of Two Best Friends?
I know that feeling you get when you are playing chess. The openings and counter openings stuff is boring but the late-mid game is where it gets interesting so I play along anyway. I did some crazy awesome stalemates in my time.
Anyway, just happy you're back working on the game :D
Maybe chess just needs a new starting setup.
So, how do I start shooting at things with guns/swords? Do I need to find food?I'm afraid we have some bad news for you.
Oooh, I wanna break the bad news!So, how do I start shooting at things with guns/swords? Do I need to find food?I'm afraid we have some bad news for you.
Can you feel the storm? It's coming!That was a little stupid of me, didn't read the whole thing. I must of been blinded by the hype.
Did you know that I now use Hype regularly because of Two Best Friends?
Heh - I've only just discovered TBF myself, and I'm rather enjoying it.
Maybe chess just needs a new starting setup.Point-buy: Do you go with a balanced start, or stick to a few elites (such as two Queens and four Bishops), or load up on like 31 pawns and crush with sheer mass?
Maybe chess just needs a new starting setup.Point-buy: Do you go with a balanced start, or stick to a few elites (such as two Queens and four Bishops), or load up on like 31 pawns and crush with sheer mass?
Maybe chess just needs a new starting setup.
Or different rules. I think it would be interesting to just add one: on a capture, both pieces are removed from the board.
HOLY CRAP this thing generates solar systems!
This is the best thing I've ever seen and I have seen a supermodel win the kitten lottery.
EDIT: Though a quick-start guide would be great, because I have no idea how to start building my army/spaceship. I wanna fly up to one of my earth's three moons! Or maybe make a world where it's a parched, dry earth with an ocean moon sitting there!
I have been absent for a little while. I found my last post, read all the blogs, and have now returned to shower you all with my wisdomseed! No. I have nothing to say, except hooray! I look forward to defeating ziggurats and being granted the greatest gift of all... a way to leave the ziggurat. :D
Oooh, I wanna break the bad news!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Can you feel the storm? It's coming!
Anyway, wait is it seriously a dating sim now. Or are you jerking my chain. I assume you are jerking my chain, but stranger things have happened.
Is courtly love and tapping ass something you would considering adding to the game?
Is courtly love and tapping ass something you would considering adding to the game?New endgame goal: Marry everyone in your empire. As in, all of them. At once.
New endgame goal: Marry everyone in your empire. As in, all of them. At once.Obligatory objective: Establish heritage empire, breed as many possible heirs as possible and then switch player character to one of them and try to be the victor of the vicious backstabbing infighting for the regency.
Is courtly love and tapping ass something you would considering adding to the game?
Is courtly love and tapping ass something you would considering adding to the game?
It's an essential part of this balanced feudal monarchy!
Is courtly love and tapping ass something you would considering adding to the game?New endgame goal: Marry everyone in your empire. As in, all of them. At once.
New endgame goal: Marry everyone in your empire. As in, all of them. At once.Obligatory objective: Establish heritage empire, breed as many possible heirs as possible and then switch player character to one of them and try to be the victor of the vicious backstabbing infighting for the regency.
We shall exact our pound of dating sim.
Ok, just started to (try to) play this one. It looks amazing and I love the style of the art(?) but I have *no* idea what to do in it. I have just been walking around and I have found nothing. What do I do to start out in this one?
I very much like using terrain as a major modifier for movement speed. Were the mechanics of increasing movement speed discussed yet? Do you only speed up if you're traveling in a straight line, or will it be a toggled option? If it's toggled, would being in a confined space restrict the use of faster options such as sprinting? Will trying to sprint through underbrush, up a dune, or other equally difficult terrain have a chance of tripping up the PC?
Maybe have it give you a warning when going over rough terrain that moving too fast could cause you to trip? Or you could have a Safe Run and a Full Run toggle that either throttles your speed but prevents tripping over difficult terrain or lets you go full speed but risk tripping.
I'd probably go a combination of weight (compared to str) and dex.
If you're heavily burdened, it's much easier to trip. Having run in armor, I can attest that it takes a bit more effort to get over obstacles.
All that's missing from the last image is a Nic Cage face.
Forget the game, just sell your procedural art to a museum and drive sport cars the rest of your life!
Nifty!
For the record, I like reading things here. I often forget to go looking in other places for information on stuff, but anything posted in a thread I'm following here will get read.
!
#hype #hashtagsoutsideoftwitter
Pumped.
so...i decided to try this...generated a world...known issue when doing random setting?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I understand that the game is to be low-fantasy, but will there be any presence of magic, like rituals a la UnRealWorld?I know that there'll definitely be religions and so probably sacrifices. What's up for debate is whether or not they do anything.
At least rituals and religions should have some kind of psychological effects. I would love to be some kind of Witch King that nobody wants to mess with.Well obviously they would have effects in the context of followers of that religion. I thought you meant in terms of them having magical effects.
I understand that the game is to be low-fantasy, but will there be any presence of magic, like rituals a la UnRealWorld?
Well obviously they would have effects in the context of followers of that religion. I thought you meant in terms of them having magical effects.
Also I keep making typos now. I'll try to cut down on any large paragraphs.
Like something that makes people more honest when near it or something to that effect? That'd be neat whether it's right or not.
maybe stuff that affects your luck, with hidden stats so you never know if it's working as intended
I do not know how you plan the plot you're thinking of, but having 3 different characters progress the same story sounds weird to me.
But at the same time you said you want a low fantasy world.
I was always under the impression that URR was going to be a free rowing, large scope sandbox game where you made your story yourself. That does not exclude semi random quests though, and I do not mean "go slay 4 wolfs in nearby region" but premade dungeons and the like that is just random in if they are in the game on this map and where you'll find questgivers.
Maybe you should separate your story/plot and a sandbox mode? The story mode would have a more narrow focus or scope where you go about your quest while the sandbox mode is do whatever and where you can inherit a portion of skills or items with a child, but where if you have none you can start over in the same world a few decades later. See how the world changed after your demise.
I agree with this as well. I was initially very hyped about this game as it seemed to be very close to my 'dream-game'. Later on you moved even closer, but it seems like you are moving away from it again :/But at the same time you said you want a low fantasy world.
I was always under the impression that URR was going to be a free rowing, large scope sandbox game where you made your story yourself. That does not exclude semi random quests though, and I do not mean "go slay 4 wolfs in nearby region" but premade dungeons and the like that is just random in if they are in the game on this map and where you'll find questgivers.
Maybe you should separate your story/plot and a sandbox mode? The story mode would have a more narrow focus or scope where you go about your quest while the sandbox mode is do whatever and where you can inherit a portion of skills or items with a child, but where if you have none you can start over in the same world a few decades later. See how the world changed after your demise.
This.
I became interested in this, BECAUSE it was a scalable low fantasy sandboxy RL. But by the looks of it, it's suddenly Ghost's n' Goblins and I need to conserve my 3 lives (or whatever you decide on) to make it to endgame? That holds no appeal for me. I assumed (and I'm assuming so did others (oh god so many assumptions)) that the overarching "goal" was whatever we wanted it to be. Want to unite the desert tribes as their chieftain? Go for it, and recreate the Mongol hordes while you're at it. Want to go pirate? If you can get a ship (and I'm assuming, a crew), go for it. The thing that drew me to this game was the apparent freedom it offered, and I fear that having a plot will take away from these freedoms.
I disagree. The original Star Wars films. Luke, Leia and Han. While they did party up, they all spent time doing their own things that advanced the plot. Or Lord of the Rings, Frodo & Sam were doing their stuff, Gandalf was doing his wizard things, Merry & Pippin were somewhere else and Aragon led his little ragtag of heroes doing yet more things. All were part of the same story, everyone was doing something different at different places.Right. Except that it seems that its just one point of view by three different guys, because the first guy died and the second one picked up the same plot after that. Using your comparison, that would be like Luke died and Han picks up his light sabre and cry that Vader is his father...
I guess I tilt slightly towards stories that feature large casts and multiple points of view.
So that’s the current plan. There is no way to die in 0.3, so this isn’t implemented yet, but this is my plan. I’m firmly set on the “plot” idea as I have a lot of ideas for it (go read some Jorge Borges for some clues), and that necessitates true permadeath, but without the annoyance of endless re-rolling. I think it’s a good compromise, but I want to know what everyone else thinks. Let me know your thoughts! I should stress I have in no way settled on the three lives idea – maybe I will stick to normal one-life permadeath – but I’d like some feedback on the concept.I know this will be a lot harder, but what about implementing a lot of plot lines. They would lie dormant in the world until you create a character. Also you could run a few npc over them so playing the world you could sometimes meet them. I mean this because i'm a very big fan of persistance (be it in df or ksp or any other) and to throw away a world just because some dude dies is just not fair with all the stuff you do to it. Sure the crawl has little persistance in that way: just a ghost of your predecessors, but it's still fun to find.
Or how about this solution Rowanas.
You get 3 lives and after that the world generates a bit more and you are thrown back in to the same world that has changed a great deal since you were away.
I totally agree with Giloyd. Maybe not being forced into playing your descendent, but having the option would be sick-rad.Or how about this solution Rowanas.
You get 3 lives and after that the world generates a bit more and you are thrown back in to the same world that has changed a great deal since you were away.
I'm not sure. I think descendants would be a good and less immersion breaking idea. You die? Play 20 years~ down the road as your son/daughter. Lives just feels way too "gamey" for me. It's a dealbreaker for me. I love me my permadeath.
I'm not sure. I think descendants would be a good and less immersion breaking idea.
The storyline is hopefully something along the lines of "player discovers x, slowly finds evidence of y, gets a hold of z, and eventually solves humanity. Or whatever. And the three or so people destined to go down this path. My idea is that in order to continue the storyline, then you must first find the corpse of your last character. Or at least reattain the items once they are scattered across the kingdom/continent/world/space and time. That way it's like you get to play out the lives of the second+ characters prior to their life-changing discovery
I think it would be cool to have a procedurally generated plot, I don't think that's been done before.
Is Gearhead 2 still a thing? I heard JH got a job and the whole thing died. A look at the forums supports my assertion. Shame.
Not knowing how you plan to tell your story nor what it will be, Its a bit hard to properly advice.
Consider following games:
Oblivion & Skyrim; Open world, go wherever you want whenever. Linear story, Npc's waiting for you to talk to them so they can give you a task with no options.
Fallout 1 & 2; Open world, Go wherever you want but face the consequences because wherever does not care if you carry a rock or a minigun. Multi-path story, Events wait for you to arrive but your actions determines the result.
Dwarf fortress; Open world, Go wherever you want but the RNG rules supreme. No story or events, The RNG and you decide your story.
Planescape torment; Sequential world, Travel between unlocked areas. Multi-path story, Actions have a bigger influence over future events than any other game I know, not to mention the 5-15 dialogue options every time you get to input and a great story.
From the little you've written about your story, It seems like treasure hunting. Find a part of the puzzle that the RNG decides to give you then track down the rest.
In my experience, Open world games should have events that appears depending on ingame criteria which with what the player decides to do and what events occur will decide the story.
To tell a good story you need to restrict the player to a predictable path but you create different branches for the player to take.
To tell a good story you need to restrict the player to a predictable path but you create different branches for the player to take.
I have to say, I really do like the DF approach that allows the player to get to know a specific world. I know it's "realistic" (in literally the most morbid, existential treatment I've ever seen in a game) that when you die, you can never again experience the world. I'm just not sure that that is going to be a good idea for something that is presumably fun.
Would there be a way to, instead of deleting the world, just delete the parts pertinent to the storyline? Say, for example, the ziggurats hold the key to the holy macguffin. Would it be possible to have those or the items/art important to the story be deleted instead? This way you can still experience the unique world that's been created and interact freely with it, but not be able to power through the storyline.
Or maybe there could be an extra couple options for worldgen, Storyline Elements and Auto-World Deleting or something to that effect.
I ask because I think it'd be a shame not to experience the unique and admittedly sexy worlds to the fullest extent, but I do get what you're doing with the permadeath and think one of these might be a good compromise.
What happens when you complete the story? does the world get deleted (which would be hella lame), or does it open up into "undirected" gameplay? Also, do you have to follow the story, or could you go off adventuring while the story waits for you to pick it back up?
Could you have an option to gen the world with story or not? Because that would be pretty awesome.
Ooh, there's something I'd like to suggest isn't done: If the world does get deleted or the storyline somehow ends with the death of the character or world, don't Fallout 3 it. By which I mean make sure the player knows where the point of no return is, and that there is one.
aw, i was hoping the lineage idea would catch on; continuing to play as long as you have a direct descendant
I think the Bethesda model is a very solid one. I want a little more story direction than they give, and have more of the world connected to the central story, but not much more.And, In my opinion, The story telling of bethsedas games sucks. I did oblivions main quest and finished it at.. level 5 perhaps? I can't even remember the story. I never even finished the plot of Skyrim and only tend to do quests from npcs if theres a reward I desire.
I think the Bethesda model is a very solid one. I want a little more story direction than they give, and have more of the world connected to the central story, but not much more.And, In my opinion, The story telling of bethsedas games sucks. I did oblivions main quest and finished it at.. level 5 perhaps? I can't even remember the story. I never even finished the plot of Skyrim and only tend to do quests from npcs if theres a reward I desire.
I should probably mention that I mod Beth games and that i mostly roam the world in the way that currently pleases me, building character and piling up loot
What is it you intend to do with the open world you are generating? Is it the stage for traveling between/finding the different story dungeons and having random encounters on the way?
Here's a nice staircase for you, INTERNET PEOPLE:Holy crap.
(http://s15.postimg.org/kgujpot9n/Sdown.png)
URR changed a lot at some point. There was a moment in development many months ago where it seemed plausible to rock around the world, being Genghis Khan. I'm not sure Ultima Ratio Regum applies any more...That one that's on haitus looks pretty good.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still watching and waiting with eagerness, but I may need to continue the search for the game that URR was.
I've been watching this mostly for the interesting gameplay, but... dat art.
I'm kind of hoping that this game will be about exploring all the ruins and finding the final boss (or whatever) in the same way that DF is about getting the nobles up to the king, digging to hell and fighting demons. That is the path that follows the natural power/difficulty curve of the game, but it's not the only thing that there is to do.
URR changed a lot at some point. There was a moment in development many months ago where it seemed plausible to rock around the world, being Genghis Khan. I'm not sure Ultima Ratio Regum applies any more...
Don't get me wrong, I'm still watching and waiting with eagerness, but I may need to continue the search for the game that URR was.
(http://s2.postimg.org/3uogrbd5l/Scrip2.png)Are those ASCII/ANSI, or custom tiles? I don't recognize any of those, which is why I'm asking.
Are those ASCII/ANSI, or custom tiles? I don't recognize any of those, which is why I'm asking.
Heh, awesome. Like I said, still watching and waiting with eagerness. The effort and skill you've put into everything so far should give this the kind of atmosphere that's missing from most roguelikes. Every picture you show us is rendered beautifully in ASCII/ANSI/custom graphics.
I was a little opposed to your envisioned change in direction, but now I'm actually really excited for it. If you do manage to make the plot something unique and engaging, this could be one awesome game.
edit: ooh, I only just noticed the tile's content list on the right. Does this mean you'll eventually be able to see people from the first person perspective?
After 7 months of development, and assuming no game-breaking bug presents itself, I will be releasing Ultima Ratio Regum v0.3 this Saturday!
I'm not sure what you mean. You can climb, walk and run, and there are large areas of in-game dungeons now to explore...
I'm not sure what you mean. You can climb, walk and run, and there are large areas of in-game dungeons now to explore...
He seems to be going around to every thread to try and troll? Looking at his post history it looks like he got denied to join the Bay12 bloc group and started spamming the forums with posts like that one.
I'm not sure what you mean. You can climb, walk and run, and there are large areas of in-game dungeons now to explore...
He seems to be going around to every thread to try and troll? Looking at his post history it looks like he got denied to join the Bay12 bloc group and started spamming the forums with posts like that one.
You are a very good person. I hope you know that.
This is the most graphically stunning game I've seen in a long time. I mean that; modern games make very _realistic_ scenes, but these aren't artistic expression, they are merely simulation. The lovingly crafted ASCII renditions here seem to have a weight behind them that makes them truly impressive.
Ah. Did you set the spawn_ziggurat_top_crashifier to 0%?
Randomized ASCII landscape on main menu every time you boot it up, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Loving what I'm seeing so far. Posted a couple of hiccups on the site, sorry for not giving any positive feedback there, I went right into the bugs!
/me walks back into thread
Sooooo... this won't be an epic civilization simulator anymore?
Meh, I still like the idea. Hope it continues to get updated, I don't have time to DL yet, but when I do, I shall give my feedback
Will you be able to lead armies or command the civs? No.
Will you be able to lead armies or command the civs? No.
Dealbreaker right there. That's the premise which the game was founded upon, and that's the premise that got me interested in the game. I'm sad to say that I've lost my main reason for being interested in URR. Don't get me wrong, I am still amazed in how you've pushed the boundaries of ASCII, but when I was told about this game about a year ago now, I was told that you would be able to indirectly command armies by giving your generals orders etc. Also, becoming ruler of a civ, and leading your civ to glory in a 1600's 1700's environment was the main focus of the game. Plus epic naval battles which you could command. It's obvious that these are no longer the main focuses of the game, or even a focus at all. This... Kind of lost me as a fan. I'm still interested in how this turns out, and I wish you the best of luck with it.
I am blown away by this roguelike engine. Seriously, what I'm seeing is overwhelmingly impressive. It shows a level of attention to detail in the graphics that just floors me. I was solving a ziggurat block puzzle and noticed that there were multiple snake blocks, and they had different designs (though I think there were only two different designs). That is just something that greatly impresses me. Not to mention the word feels rich and inspires the imagination even though it's ASCII+custom.
I seriously think that you should make multiple games or license the engine or something, because what could be done with all of this is just... awesome. I don't even mind that I was ultra-excited from the first post about the roguelike civ sim and was disappointed that it's not in the game nor going to be.
Also, that puzzle. I had to actually open notepad to coordinate all the hints and make the connections. I hope the other puzzles are similar, but even so, good job on being cryptic and making it a bit difficult without making it impossible or giving everything away.Spoiler: Complete! (click to show/hide)
That said, I don't actually know what I'm supposed to be doing, or what there is even to do. Haven't read through the thread all the way, though, so that's probably my fault.
Found a simple error in a puzzle inscription.Spoiler: Inscription (click to show/hide)
There are also numerous typos/errors elsewhere, like in the guidebook. Anywhere convenient where I can send you a list?
Edit: Also, just went up a set of stairs and was surrounded by blocks. Had to push one away to make it into the puzzle chamber.
Will you be able to lead armies or command the civs? No.
Dealbreaker right there. That's the premise which the game was founded upon, and that's the premise that got me interested in the game. I'm sad to say that I've lost my main reason for being interested in URR. Don't get me wrong, I am still amazed in how you've pushed the boundaries of ASCII, but when I was told about this game about a year ago now, I was told that you would be able to indirectly command armies by giving your generals orders etc. Also, becoming ruler of a civ, and leading your civ to glory in a 1600's 1700's environment was the main focus of the game. Plus epic naval battles which you could command. It's obvious that these are no longer the main focuses of the game, or even a focus at all. This... Kind of lost me as a fan. I'm still interested in how this turns out, and I wish you the best of luck with it.
i'm sad to say I agree. What if we threw our money at you URR? Would you go back to making our dreams come true?
@ Glloyd - sorry to hear that, but I fully understand where you're coming from. I know the game has mutated a lot as time as gone by, but the reason is because I'm putting so much time and effort into it that I just have to follow what concepts and mechanics really interest me at this point. There's also, as I mentioned above, a timescale issue - my current plan is audacious, but not impossible to complete before my death; the original plan, unless I suddenly started working at it full time and brought in help, was simply impossible. Also, psychologically, those goals were too "far away" - I have the next three or four versions very clearly planned out, I know where I'm going, and the development plan I have on my computer now is so much more "focused" than my original. Thank you re: ASCII, and thanks for the good wishes.
Fair enough, and thanks for the response. I tried v.0.3.0 out, and the ziggurats are pretty cool. I like what you've got so far, it just... Isn't the droid I was looking for.
Downloading now...
Big question... two parter
is ther going to be side-quests?
Two, Are they going to be randomly generated?
And is there a sandbox aspect to this? oops three things
So forgive me of my ignorance, as I haven't played it much, but ADOM was something of an open world with a loose-ish storyline, right? I mean, I never got past the first couple caves/dungeons, mostly because I'd walk into one of the later ones and don't comprehend the concept of "retreat" when not preceded by "tactical" and ending with enveloped Gauls.
So will it be something like that or similar? I'm trying to figure out what beast you're raising now, since I personally haven't seen much to hint at me how the game's going to feel and such. The first version was outlined very clearly, but not this one so much. I do see that you're trying to keep it under wraps a bit so if you don't feel like sharing much, that's cool.
I'm so conflicted! Half of me is in the same boat as Glloyd and them, but the rest of me is still all in since you've shown some great ideas and I'd like to see what you do with a more focused objective.
Thank You for answering...
I thought when things changed the game would lose replayablity...
Like Shadowrun Returns. It's fun but too linear compared to the eariler games.
Well, as long as you can ignore the main quest and just go kill random peasants I'm 100% okay with all the changes :P
Well, as long as you can ignore the main quest and just go kill random peasants I'm 100% okay with all the changes :P
Yep... but there will be CONSEQUENCES. Real ones, not this Skyrim "a small number of people panic briefly and then go back to behaving like normal" rubbish.
Hi!
First time poster here - I have been following this thread for over a year now and would like to compliment you on the beauty you have achieved using Ascii...I was immediately hooked after realizing the level of love I saw/felt being poured into this game.
Now for a (jarringly) simple question: I did download and fire up 0.3 (first time user), walked the (larger) map, found two ziggurats, entered the (detail) map, walked and climbed all over those two ziggurats - but was unable to find an entrance. I did 'l'ook at a ton of squares (again, compliments on achieving 'natural' vine growths...in an ascii game...wow!) but could not find any. Is there something very obvious that I am missing? Note that I found the (locked) door to a '?' building so I at least know how the symbol does look....a pointer on how to enter a ziggurat would be appreciated - my thanks!
--------
ah. Found it. Cunningly intertwined with vines....puzzles next! Thanks for the help!
I had the same problem! And that was after my first map didn't spawn any ziggurats :)
Basically you're looking for an inverted U. It's a door! I think it should usually be at the center of one of the walls, north, west, east or south ones :)
Maximum replayability is a central goal - EVERYTHING, from art to doors to puzzles to swords, will and must be procedural...
You know how to win a fanbase, sir. :D
Sorry, after walking around the map for a while and not seeing any Z's I regenerated it on top of the old one. I was on Earth and definitely walked around all of the continen hat I could walk on, and there was no Z. I tried that for a fairly long time, and actually went into places that had resource deposits becuase I couldn't figure out where the ziggurats would've been :\
Sorry I can't help more!
That title screen. I don't think its a rougelike if it looks pretty. Everything feels really polished, even the map displays for things that don't exist yet.
Also, I forgot the button it told me to look up the controls and now I don't know how to do anything. Either that or it really is "C" and its just not working.
Two things in particular I don't understand: can I look in a direction without moving that way, and why does hitting "." to wait seem to deplete my stamina/will/exhaustion? The first thing I did was climb a volcano, so I ran out of energy pretty fast.
Also, '.' should *not* be doing that! Thanks for alerting me, I'll fix that.
I tested it a little. Before my stamina runs out, it works as I would expect. Once I run out of stamina though waiting causes the willpower bar to drain, and then the exhaustion bar, and then I get the message "you start to regain your reserves of strength" and it all comes back.
I might think this was intend behavior, with the exhaustion bar just representing the time it takes for my character to catch his breath. However, the message I get when I run out of willpower ("you can keep up this level of activity no longer; you are exhausted!") implies that the willpower bar at least should refill if I wait.
The first thing I tried to do when I made my first game is to find a volcano. I found a living volcano and tried to jump in, but the game said to me "That would be a suicide!" and did not let me! Awwww :'(.
Maximum replayability is a central goal - EVERYTHING, from art to doors to puzzles to swords, will and must be procedural...
EVERYTHING, from art to doors to puzzles to swords, will and must be procedural...
swords, will and must be procedural...
swords
will and must be procedural...
In the wall carvings, skull blocks are referred to as "the reminder of morality". Is that a typo?
As long as I can have a sword that has a crazy appearance that I can set on fire, I will happily await this
Wrapping a sword in oil-soaked cloth might make it a worse sword, but it makes a much better torch.
See you fixed the quote.
I assume, fi he's been paying any attention, that he means mundane. Wrapping a sword in oil-soaked cloth might make it a worse sword, but it makes a much better torch.
Or he's wondering if you're going more for the Elona route, where weapons can be made of raw meat and cloth among basically everything else possible.
Not that I have any personal experience here (barring a near accident with a marshmallow where I was the perpetrator...) but being hit with a flaming bludgeon still smarts quite a bit.
is there anything to do in the game yet? In .2 it was more of a demo of the interface. Not complaining just asking. is there any kind of a game yet? I know its still in alpha stage.
No raw meat. At least, in sword form.You don't like the mental image of someone trying to kill another guy with a chunk of sharpened, raw meat?
Uhhhhhh... no, sorry, I don't recall. I'm thinking it might have been the two big north/south squares with a single line of 10 or 12 through the middle, but I really can't recall.
As for the typos, sure thing. I'll make a list of what I can find and send them to you later today.
No raw meat. At least, in sword form.You don't like the mental image of someone trying to kill another guy with a chunk of sharpened, raw meat?
Well, that was less of a time investment than I thought. Sent what I could find without doing a bunch of playtesting.
Wasn't it IVAN where you could have your limbs turned into various things, like fruit (or less interesting materials, like diamond or wood), then cut off, whereupon you would wield it and beat your attacker to death?
Hi, I'm stuck on a riddle :
I know where to place what but I have a problem interpreting what is what.
The singer of the early chorus : the sun, I suppose
The dark crescent : gibbous moon ?
The tusked one : the boar
The hidden moon : the eclipsed moon ?
I tried alternating the two moons but it didn't work either.
Any help please ?
I have a question about the puzzles. Does opposite just mean next to, or am I missing something. Also, sometimes I just read two nouns next to each other in a sentence, like "the dead one the several tiers", and then the rest of a seemingly unrelated clue. Is this intentional?
I think know what the singer is.It's pretty obvious.Spoiler: answer (click to show/hide)
There should be "is next to" or some direction in the middle. That's a serious bug. Can you tell me exactly what layout of puzzle it was, and what that and all the other clues were?
Edit: whoops, yes, opposite means next to. There's an irony here, since it used to say "next to" but I removed that because people felt it was too vague! It means it is the closest to another in any direction. Like:
OBADO
OOCOO
With a one-square gap in the middle; A is "opposite" B, C and D.
Another question: I got to another Ziggurat, and the final puzzle, which is formatted the same as the previous one, there has clues in the form of "A and B are together and opposite C and D". Does this mean that part of the solution is
XAB CDX
where X's identity doesn't matter?
now we’re onto something more like… I don’t know, Dark Souls meets Dwarf Fortress meets Europa Universalis meets Jorge Borges?
Quotenow we’re onto something more like… I don’t know, Dark Souls meets Dwarf Fortress meets Europa Universalis meets Jorge Borges?
I am okay with all of this.
Glad to hear you've got a good handle on what it takes to actually make your game.
"Trap smoke. Don't breathe this!"
ASCII?
Quote"Trap smoke. Don't breathe this!"
Could they even do that? I mean I guess it could be an alchemical reaction between two compounds or a poisonous powder.
Any combat yet? I'd play just for the combat features, but last time I downloaded it, it wasn't there yet.
Is the game currently just shuffling blocks around? I went through 3-4 layers of a ziggurat before becoming bored.
Discovered an unknown locked structure which I assume you had to find the keys from inside the ziggurats.
The looks an awful lot like a torch.
Loving what you have going here. I seem to keep hitting annoying hurdles, though. I have had numerous Ziggurats with duplicate blocks that are seemingly impossible to solve, even the the puzzle is as basic as can be.
I've downloaded the latest version "0.3.1c", though, when running the game it still says "v0.3.0" in the title bar.
Either way, I love where this project is headed - keep up the good work!
I'm not sure that the 4 empty bottles should be considered different. ;)
0.4 is looking great, can't wait to mess around with poisoning myself and covering myself with oil. (Will that be possible in 0.4?)
No (e.g.) salt water or different kinds of blood / poison? Is the current "simplicity" just a placeholder or are you going to keep it like that?
Not saying it is bad or anything :). I am definitely liking basically all the art so far!
Poisons could have different effects with identical (or similar pallet-shifted) graphics.
Some of the central thematic elements of the game (which as I say are only now starting to emerge) are about how we understand truth, and the ways in which different civilizations perceive reality according to different metrics (science, myth, etc).
That language stuff is both nifty and impressive!
QuoteSome of the central thematic elements of the game (which as I say are only now starting to emerge) are about how we understand truth, and the ways in which different civilizations perceive reality according to different metrics (science, myth, etc).
I approve of this.
I have been watching this for ages but I don't think I have yet to post here to watch it! Silly me...done!
Impressive looking, as always!
Personally, I've found this game to be of more interest since the change of focus.
While the open world that you initially had planned was interesting, something about the change of focus to dungeon crawling, dealing with deadly traps and deciphering puzzles in ancient languages reminds me of how much I wished that the ziggurat in Gearhead had a little more to it - I remember many playthroughs I'd up my toughness, resiliance to status effects, get medication to deal with anything that got through and then head out to this one specific hostile location to crawl through it for its treasures.
This seems to capture the same promise of exploration, using your wits and tools to overcome the challenges before you, of coming out atop it all with your reward - or dying a horrible death because you underestimated the challenges before you and for that, it has not just rekindled, but sparked a new interest in me.
The artwork that you've done using the medium you have, along with the effects you've applied to it add a great deal of appeal to the game too as while there's a lot that a player's required to imagine with games of these styles and this acts as a potent catalyst.
With the sun setting you're dappled with the last dying rays of golden-red light filtering through the canopy above, facing a forboding structure made of stepped and weathered sandstone forgotten for countless ages in the untamed forest.
Do you dare enter before morning returns with the warm glow of the sun to give you false courage before you march into the darkness?
I'll be looking forward to seeing this when there's more substance, so the cries of joy along with the screams of horror of my foolhardy adventurers will mark their many successes and failures.
Best of luck!
I somewhat agree. While I was at first disappointed with the change of focus (other than the removal of most fantasy elements, I liked that change) I think I'm starting to like what you are making more and more :D.
Amazing the things you force ascii to do...
That bear trap looks decidedly unpleasant.It's just smiling at you, harmlessly inviting you to pry open those metal jaws.
The "Traps" entry in the guidebook - not 100% finished, but has everything relevant to the next release:
... and only whispered about as the having caused the deaths ...Not sure what you were trying to do there =P
... - either by tripwires, or pressure pads.Comma unnecessary.
That bear trap looks decidedly unpleasant.
It's just smiling at you, harmlessly inviting you to pry open those metal jaws.
The "Traps" entry in the guidebook - not 100% finished, but has everything relevant to the next release:... and only whispered about as the having caused the deaths ...Not sure what you were trying to do there =P... - either by tripwires, or pressure pads.Comma unnecessary.
URR is still looking good. Keep up the good work!
Er. Nice find. And I like commas! You should read my academic work, I litter them with commas, in the most unnecessary, places.
Er. Nice find. And I like commas! You should read my academic work, I litter them with commas, in the most unnecessary, places.
/wrists
Why do you do this.
Er. Nice find. And I like commas! You should read my academic work, I litter them with commas, in the most unnecessary, places.
/wrists
Why do you do this.
They are a most subtle trap.
I always used to throw commas into the most unneeded spots. Ones where they didn't seem super wrong, but they would grind the flow of what I was writing to a halt :P. It's gotten better recently.
I find it sadly amusing that my English class focuses so much on analysing texts, that we have no idea how to use simple punctuation. <<Case in point, I don't even know what I've done wrong there.It's just that one comma that you got wrong. The comma in your second sentence is correct.
Never use commas unless they are entirely necessary. It makes reading a bit easier and prevents awkward pauses where you wouldn't expect them.This one.
I'm going to write that now if I were to follow the opposite paradigm:
Never use commas, unless they are entirely necessary. It makes reading a bit easier, and prevents awkward pauses, where you wouldn't expect them.
Which one is easier to read?
I come from the fiction side of writing where it doesn't really matter if you're entirely correct in your comma usage in certain applications. It's an established convention to use commas as a single breathing pause in dialogue. It bleeds over into my own post writing where I subconsciously insert a comma at the natural breath point unless I stop myself.
Are, you, sure, about, that,?,
Looking good!
Sorry, but I must disagree the fact that a sutured wound is less prone to infections. If not thoroughly cleaned, then kept clean and dry for at least two days, you'd have an heavier risk of infection or making an abscess. The "prevent infection" phase would start about 72h after the suture, since at that point if no complications the skin as clotted together.
Of course it will be more about game mechanic than simulation. Who would like to be bed resting a week after a penetrating abdominal injury, or can't walk forever after receiving an arrow in the knee.
You also need to implement pain killers, and all their secondary effects including dependency... :P
Doin' some bang-up work on his. [Smokes pipe]
I've gone through a couple characters so far, and only on the last one remembered the inventory system :P. So now I can actually make progress that isn't blunder ahead half-blind until I died of poison. Certainly makes it a lot more enjoyable.One question, though. Where are the puzzles? Another thought that just popped into my head, will we eventually see puzzles and traps overlapping, so you're sliding around your blocks while trying to not run over the bear trap?
edit: Just made it to what I think is the boss room. Massive puzzle. Badly injured character. I'm ready to go.
Sounds nifty!
ooh. Will there be/ is there a way to view world maps either in game or exporting a file? I could totally use a world this game generates as a desktop background
Sweet. Is that feudal or...?
Having the nonfeudal civs being associated with one or more items and animals would be neat - they could both use it as a symbol and have a general preference for it. Not sure how that fits in with what you have though.
You make some lovely looking ANSI skulls. It never fails to impress me
Oh nice! Some questions...
Will the noble houses that lead a (feudal) nation at the beginning of the game be the same that lead it once you start playing? (AKA can houses get wiped out and replaced?)
Are you planning on making them able to merge or 'inherit each other' somehow? I mostly ask this because merged coat of arms is something I like, even though it'd obviously be a little impractical because of the game's graphic.
Also, I assume (given the game's name) motto's will be in Latin?
Further question: Why does that coat of arms include the bird's cloaca?
Further question: Why does that coat of arms include the bird's cloaca?If you mean the bird in the pic I posted, it's Granada's pomegranate. You should play more Europa Universalis ;)
Further question: Why does that coat of arms include the bird's cloaca?If you mean the bird in the pic I posted, it's Granada's pomegranate. You should play more Europa Universalis ;)
With the hunter-gatherer and nomadic groups instead of a coat of arms or whatnot how do you feel about tattoos or something of the sort as an identifier? Like anyone of the equivalent to the royal bloodline in a nomadic group would have a sun tattooed on their hand, or a scrotum on their forehead (it's a little-known fact that fraternities are based off of long-forgotten tribes). That'd also call into question concealment of the tattoo as well. Which would be neat if you say, stab some dude a few dozen times, only to find the tattoo of some family you were supposed to be helping on his shoulder. Also, secret societies. I want to go off on a tangent as I usually do, but limited access to intertubes is restricting my ability to go off like I tend to do. Tomorrow, I promise.
Also, Nur-pol made me giggle. You don't want to rub them the wrong way. I wonder if their flag is purple. Additional nipple joke.
Seems interesting. Downloading now.
So, I found some proving grounds, couldn't get in, found a Ziggurat, walked past the traps and died pretty quickly. Came back and tried to figure out what im supposed to do to get past, and only managed to think of throwing a branch at the tripwires, couldn't get past the pressure pads though. And I have no idea how to get up the stairs... yep. By the way, Ascii graphics were awesome. Looking forward to updates, I was trying to find some civilization until i realized there was none.
When you described the current version's method of translation I was like "Oh hey, a simple substitution cipher. That'd be neat if we had to crack the languages like some sort of code..." and then I kept reading, and was pleased. And then I remembered this is the same thread where cryptography was discussed in depth, albeit then it was for issuing orders securely, so I'm pretty confident that you'll be able to do that effectively.
(Fun Fact, also: My primary goal in life for the longest time was to get a job as a cryptographer, so you just keep making this game more and more appealing to me.)
I don't know how I've managed to avoid reading Cryptonomicon. This will be rectified.
It is now in my library and will be opened once I finish reading 2312.
Although it is an interest of yours, I think that most people will just go to URR wiki and spoiler themself rather than sit down and decipher texts.
That is why the ciphers will gen anew each gameSo you'll make a cipher generator for each game making it so that the cipher will never be the same?
You can be assured that there will be a wiki.That is why the ciphers will gen anew each gameSo you'll make a cipher generator for each game making it so that the cipher will never be the same?
So does the player solve the cipher once in the game and all subsequent cyphers of the same language, In that game, will be automatically translated?
Though i guess it depends on how easy the cipher is, I think I'm one of those that would just go to a wiki because deciphering just takes time. Unless the player likes to figure it out just for the sake of deciphering it, it becomes a tedious choir rather than an interesting feature.
Do note that i do not know how important it is to read the ciphers, nor do i know if there is alternative ways to progress.
Borges and Eco are two authors that always occupy a spot in my top five.
Both, while not quite obscure, are not nearly as widely read as deserved. True masters of language with a boggling creative scope and genius. I believe I am going to find a home in URR.
So I know the large army command stuff was dropped a good bit back, but the mention of cults being able to assist in dungeons piqued my interest. Of course they'd be able to help in the intellectual sense ("All of us know that a three-headed boar guards the hidden macguffin), but would they be included in the dungeon-diving itself? I can see them getting in the way, and there'd be difficulty in making them move "smart" (i.e. not stepping onto a clearly-marked or obvious trap...speaking of which, perhaps a tool like chalk to mark our path would be neat), but nobody can deny the benefits of having someone else check out that pit o' spikes for you.
With all the travel and stuff it seems we'll be doing, will we be able to set up a base or something like a home, or would we be living out of our inventories as we would most other RLs?
Will there still be in-game languages in addition in crytography? If you're willing to do it i very much like the idea, especially if it's moddable.
Ah good. I wish you could mod it, if only for the sake of including real world languages.
Not to mention 'actual' roguelikes, which there really are a lot of I think? Unless you only count finished ones of course :P. Not sure if that ever happened~
Remember you're talking to Neonivek
Has... this become... a Meme? Or have I somehow developed a Catcher-phrase?It's just because you tend to come out of the left field a lot in conversations. And then sometimes not quite explain where you're coming from for six pages. And then continue to come from the left field once a certain amount of understanding between parties has been reached. I kind of expected a two page derail on the fundamental nature of a roguelike.
I havent even begun to think about the scoring system yet, but it will be very clear how many of the nine dungeons have been cleared when a player completes the game.
Once again thanks Ultima Ratio Regum for contributing to the small force of people managing to pull roguelikes out of their current state of stagnation.
Edit: That sounds wrong somehow. I'll edit it a bit.
Honestly Roguelikes have a lot of untapped potential and I am glad it is starting to get tapped.
QuoteI haven’t even begun to think about the scoring system yet, but it will be very clear how many of the nine dungeons have been cleared when a player completes the game.
One feature I've been very fond of is when Roguelikes actually keep track of how you are playing the game and actually comment. Such as if you managed to be a vegetarian.
It would be interesting when there is a scoring system that there are aspects of that.
fourthly, it allows for some rather aesthetically pleasing city maps.You're not joking around about that. Goddamn, those are pretty.
fourthly, it allows for some rather aesthetically pleasing city maps.You're not joking around about that. Goddamn, those are pretty.
Yes. You gotta stop making everything so pretty or we will not be able to play any other roguelikes anymore.fourthly, it allows for some rather aesthetically pleasing city maps.You're not joking around about that. Goddamn, those are pretty.
Yes. You gotta stop making everything so pretty or we will not be able to play any other roguelikes anymore.fourthly, it allows for some rather aesthetically pleasing city maps.You're not joking around about that. Goddamn, those are pretty.
Sounds like things are shaping up nicely!
A question about the plot you talked about : will you be able to completely ignore it and travel around, talk to people, fight stuff, etc. ?
Have you considered cities without walls? or cities that have grown past their walls?
"For the honor of House Ej-ipox! Let's slaughter those Ejop-ax curs!"
Family names are not carried according to the men in the family, but rather by the status of the family.
This might have come up before, but:QuoteFamily names are not carried according to the men in the family, but rather by the status of the family.
Is this game going to be gender-egalitarian like Dwarf Fortress, or (unlikely, considering the above quote) male-centered like Crusader Kings? Or maybe a mixture of both?
causing her axe Wrathshatter to be lost on the battlefield.
Honestly the further you develop this URR the more I kind of want to see more fantasy elements.
Since a lot of these religions seem to have a lot of mystical names or themes.
I'm afraid it's staying fantasy-clear, but as I've mentioned in the past, there will be elements of "magic realism", but nothing even remotely like fantasy species, magic, or anything like that. They do, but that's largely because it's hard to gen religion names without!
Also I wanted to ask
Are bones dusk or monsters? Because Bones as monsters is kind of hilarious.
Also I wanted to ask
Are bones dusk or monsters? Because Bones as monsters is kind of hilarious.
I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean! Can you elaborate?
Also I wanted to ask
Are bones dusk or monsters? Because Bones as monsters is kind of hilarious.
I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean! Can you elaborate?
For what a god holds in its hand. Does it hold bones if it is a god of monsters or a god of dusk?
The names of all these are very cool, it all sounds fantastical, I can't wait to drawn myself into reading what each new world can generate for history. I'd like to point out though, something that's been irking me. The names of civilizations and families. They're too..difficult? Too strange, too unfamiliar. Too hard to remember. If they're to be of importance in the plot, the first thing players will forget will most likely be this. I've gone through the 2 pictures presented, and 2 different civilizations have been talked of. They've been wiped from my memory already(the meteor, green eleven, the math language however, haven't)hope I don't come off as offending
Any possibility in normalizing them, or giving them an english variant, like DF does?
P.S. First picture has a typo in the name of the people for "Rites of the whisperers"
URR is inspired by Borges, right? So instead of having the names of civilizations and families be random strings of letters, why not lift them wholesale from Borges' work?
For example...Uqbar is more interesting (and sounds like Iraq, so it's familiar) than the feud between Ej-ipox and Ejop-ax.
Glorious news indeed.
Good luck getting it out there! Very excited to have a play with it.
That looks quite defensible. Really nice deep water port.
That looks quite defensible. Really nice deep water port.
Yep, too bad you can only get there by boat... or I guess swimming.
That's almost a really awesome feature. Give it a narrow bridge out from the mainland and that'd be a great thing to have crop up on rare occasions.
Is it a bug or is it located on a small island?
This game sounds amazing. PtW.
I found some proving grounds and, upon not being able to enter at the time, took a detour to a nearby Ziggy. Where the game immediately crashed upon trying to go into dude view.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I dunno if you need the rest of the log before I entered the area, if I have everything from when I entered, or even if this is the log you need at all. I'll mess around some more to see if it's the proving grounds that did it or something with the ziggurat, but I figured I'd shoot this out there as soon as I could.
This looks like a very promising game, but I am kinda confused atm. Is it playable as it is now? I mean do we have any content gameplay wise? What can a player character do in the lastest version?
Psst guys it's time to play 0.5
Edit: So I've read that you can be rewarded for setting up altars and shrines, and there's a militaristic religion that leaves foes injured but alive to spread tales of their holy warriors. Admittedly it's been a long while since I've downloaded any updates, but I also see like 5 bars at the bottom. How long's that been there?
Now when did you add the voices telling me to do things I'm hearing on startup?
Few things noticed at first: numpad enter doesn't work on the new menus(encyclopedia included), numpad arrows don't work in the encyclopedia.
This looks like a very promising game, but I am kinda confused atm. Is it playable as it is now? I mean do we have any content gameplay wise? What can a player character do in the lastest version?
A lot of the information I just posted above answers that question, but the primary gameplay currently is exploring ziggurats. I'm working on most of the world-building before the gameplay aspects, but a lot of the world-building also informs the gameplay, as you'll see if you look at the in-game history, for example :).
This looks like a very promising game, but I am kinda confused atm. Is it playable as it is now? I mean do we have any content gameplay wise? What can a player character do in the lastest version?
A lot of the information I just posted above answers that question, but the primary gameplay currently is exploring ziggurats. I'm working on most of the world-building before the gameplay aspects, but a lot of the world-building also informs the gameplay, as you'll see if you look at the in-game history, for example :).
Allrighty, so the major gameplay elements like moving armies, conquering, expanding the realm, diplomacy etc. are not in the game yet. Can we have some info that when will those be added? I will keep an eye on this thread. Keep up the good work!
Oh, so this isn't a roguelike with lot of strategic elements like creating armies etc.? It sounded awesome, it makes me sad if those plans have been dropped.
Ah, thanks for the link, now it's clear. Well, it's as shame that you dropped the original ideas, those were awesome and unique. Now this will be yet another dungeon crawler baiscally. Oh well, it is your game, so I won't complain. It's just that the original plans sounded much more epic. IMHO of course. :)
Ah, thanks for the link, now it's clear. Well, it's as shame that you dropped the original ideas, those were awesome and unique. Now this will be yet another dungeon crawler baiscally. Oh well, it is your game, so I won't complain. It's just that the original plans sounded much more epic. IMHO of course. :)
With all due respect, another dungeon crawl is *PRECISELY* what it will not be. There's no magic, minimal combat (and combat there is will be wholly unlike other roguelikes, and will instead be a timing/rhythm style akin to a turn-based Dark Souls, for lack of a better description), basically no fantasy creatures, a lot of procedural graphic generation (other dungeon crawlers have that?!), cryptography and procedurally-generated languages, and will be heavily focused around a certain unique mechanic do to with history and knowledge which I haven't fully unveiled yet. "Dungeon" is perhaps too broad a word, or one that evokes certain things, but it will be nothing like your Nethack, DCSS, whatever (as much as I love those games). If I failed to express this in that blog post, that's my mistake, but rest assured nothing like the central mechanics I have in mind have *ever* been done in a game before (whereas armies, 4X etc, all have). I don't think a game with "places in which you do things" instantly becomes a dungeon crawler!
I love what are you doing here. In the beggining I thought it would be just a DF's adventure mode clone, but it is turning to be a very unique game. Go on, it is looking great.
Independently, I would not have associated the culture-politics sim aspects of URR with the Borgesian focus on mystery and puzzle solving. I find it hard to imagine they melding into a cohesive gameplay experience. One aspects seems to revolve around solo exploration of isolated dungeons and relies on the player's skills and knowledge, while the other seems to involve managing armies and balancing constantly shifting allegiances as the world outside the ziggurats evolves.
Downloading the new version now!
Shouldn't the thread title be changed to v0.5 released?
Aaaaaaw. :-\
I was really looking forward to the original idea of the strategy-esque URR, and it's sad for me to know that this is no longer in the plans.
But it's your game and I can't change that.
Just letting you know that there's one person less following the project.
I may look at it every now and then, but it's definitely not my "#1 game to make hype about".
line 176874
Fancy as always!
Looks sweet. It could be a traditional hand sewn pattern.
I was playing 0.51 and I got a crash when I was walking around a volcano. The output log is here:You may want to look into it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, I should really have sail this earlier, but your game is amazing. And I, for one, am actually more intersted in it after the focus shift. I've always wanted to play a roguelike that focuses on exploration. :)
Quoteline 176874
I bet you're damn good at regular expressions :P
is playable? is similar a df adventur mode?yes is playable technically but more of just engine
Can I ask you you generated those roads? They look nice and smooth/curvy.
So... Um...
What is there to do in this game if I download it right now ????
Can I engage in combat with Nazis while hunting for treasure? *Cracks whip*.
On a serious note I don't get what I can currently do in this game from the opening post. How fleshed out is it? Could you give me a textual example of a 'game' of it or is it still mostly in concept phase?
is playable? is similar a df adventur mode?yes is playable technically but more of just engine
so like df adventur mode without real gameplay
Can I ask you you generated those roads? They look nice and smooth/curvy.
I'd love to say I used quadratic equations, but they are all sections of circle circumferences!
I'd love to hear how one could use quadratic equations to generate smooth roads and rivers :)
Will I be able to hunt peasants with a smooth-bore rifle while wearing a top-hat?
Is this a game yet? I tried .3 and you cpuld move, but that got old after a few minutes
Have you considered having chatbots for your NPCs? It's what I've been doing with my RL (using python+libtcod as well) and it's coming along nicely.
Although things like cleverbot seem pretty shallow and gimmicky due to needing to handle a massive variation of general input, game based chatbots don't need to bother about that, as all their conversations happen in the setting which you've created and can only respond to 'in world' stuff.
They also can easily wander off/have negative reactions if you derail the conversation too much away from stuff they know about, and they can have distinct personalities to help color their responses.
It's not too tricky to do and it gives a much more immersive level of interaction than selecting options - just something to think about anyway!
I'm... not sure what you mean. NPCs haven't been implemented yet (though they are coming soonish), and once they are I'll just be writing all the conversation code from scratch. As with everything, a core design philosophy has been "Do things that others haven't done yet!" so I'm trying to think of some kind of very new conversation system. I've got a few pretty unusual ideas, but we'll see how it works out.
I'm... not sure what you mean. NPCs haven't been implemented yet (though they are coming soonish), and once they are I'll just be writing all the conversation code from scratch. As with everything, a core design philosophy has been "Do things that others haven't done yet!" so I'm trying to think of some kind of very new conversation system. I've got a few pretty unusual ideas, but we'll see how it works out.
I'll try to be a bit more clear. Basically, in my RL all my NPCs are all chatbots, in which you can type in a sentence like 'how are you?' or 'which way is it to xyz' and they'll respond. This is in much the same way as Cleverbot (http://www.cleverbot.com/) works, basically by parsing input and trying to work out what you mean. Although general chatbots tend to be a bit rubbish due to the vast amount of random and complicated sentences they need to understand, in game it's a lot easier - you've only got a set number of topics in your game world and the npcs don't need to always try to respond in the best possible way and their responses can be colored by things like allegiance, mood and so on.
I think being able to just 'talk' to NPCs gives a much more immersive experience than selecting from a list, and also allows you to just strike up random conversations with anyone in the street. It's not a perfect system, and certainly there needs to be a 'hints' system or something so the player isn't just stabbing in the dark, but I do think it'd be a very interesting way forward.
the graveyards are comming out nice, but maybe you could do some more interesting things with dead people, for example, often big aristocrats and royals were buried in religious monuments they'd built or sponsored. It'd be cool if some national heroes got a more public resting place rather than being tucked away in a graveyard.
Awww no Kings Quest style ironic tombstones? I am almost disappointed :P
Ok not really
Will villains tend to have unmarked graves?
Could graves/graveyards be impacted by religion as well? Many religions have their own special graveyards (or parts of larger ones) and often have grave stones with religious motifs (like the obvious Christian Crosses) IRL, and it'd make a lot of sense as well as add more depth to the religions.
However, I'm guessing you probably don't want to spend too long on graveyards as I don't imagine the player will be constantly visiting them/exploring them in as much depth as other areas. Just a thought though!
As always - awesome! That's a very big slum! A few observations from having worked in slums myself (admittedly not medieval ones :( ):
1) Slums tend to be wider than they are thick as they tend to expand/snake along the city limit so as to be as close as possible (although they're sometimes constrained by walls/things).
2) Slums tend to have set parameters, without many houses just laying as outlyers, this is again because they're built up trying to be as close to the city as possible and there would be little incentive to live further out.
3) They tend to have main paths as well as lots of small offshoots. These tend to be a bit random, but they'd be say three 'dots' thick in your rendering. These are still dirt kind of roads, but they're often big enough for cars (or in your case carts) to go up or down without problem.
Again, these are all modern slums and I'm sure there are variations, but most of these make sense logically I guess. People want to be nearer the city walls/limits for work/services/protection and the wider paths are required to move stuff around. Outlying buildings probably make more sense in a medieval context with farming/huts and stuff though.
To admit I don't think the game has the typical city "main road" or all important city center (Modern Cities tend to have the dead center)
Wow, that's awesome! Congrats!
Congratulations!! I'd love to know what it says if anyone could give a rough outline?
As far as polar regions go, they do look awesome, but I'd kinda like more contrast between sea and ice. I know it might not look so pretty, but it's currently a bit hard on the eyes for me. Even just a small nudge to either the sea or the ice would help a lot in differentiating areas.
A question that has come to mind for me is, if a figure that you are associated with or one of your companions or whatever dies during your adventures, will you be able to visit their place of burial and find a headstone dedicated to them?
Some people grow attached to certain characters that they interact with in games, so being able to pay their respects to a friend or a comrade in arms would be quite a poignant thing from their perspectives.
On the flip side of that question, would you be able to deface or even plunder the grave of a rival if you were inclined to that level of disrespect?
Ahh thanks for that! It's definitely an everything roguelike!!
For me it's less about the colour/brightness and more about the contrast between the sea and the ice - possibly in the game it'll be clearer, but boosting the white content of the ice may help distinguish it a bit more. Just a thought from seeing the picture.
Congratulations on the recognition - ambitious projects and big dreams tend to capture the imagination of those that wish to see them reach fruition.
Your art assets are as always, looking impressive for the medium you use to create them.
With the way they're shaping up and the world itself is shaping up, I have to wonder how many people will one day have the guilty pleasure of simply examining everything they are able to see what it appears like and what snippets of history may be gleaned from it.
A question that has come to mind for me is, if a figure that you are associated with or one of your companions or whatever dies during your adventures, will you be able to visit their place of burial and find a headstone dedicated to them?
Some people grow attached to certain characters that they interact with in games, so being able to pay their respects to a friend or a comrade in arms would be quite a poignant thing from their perspectives.
On the flip side of that question, would you be able to deface or even plunder the grave of a rival if you were inclined to that level of disrespect?
These are both things I'd be very interested in, especially if they had wide ranging affects. For instance other companions getting a boost/positive thought from paying their respects, or rivals/religious factions getting more angry due to the grave digging.
Posting to read the slides later.
Nice update, as always.
I know I say this every time, but that looks awwwwwesome. With special buildings in it looks like a proper, living city. I'd thoroughly recommend putting in loads more small features if you get time, like broken down houses, bonfires and other small aesthetics.
I have to confess though, I do have a worry. I've tried to hold back from mentioning it, and I feel like it's a sin of which the gods of proceduralism will strike me down with a procedurally textured lightning bolt:
There might be too much stuff. I just mean this in that I'm assuming you're going to have each building be enter-able/usable, and even the most tenacious explorer might find that they're way too much stuff to look in. In the lower class housing picture you've got over 200 houses, and I'm assuming only 5-10 of those would be of real use to the player.
One way round this might be to have the inside of cities without a fog-of-war (for want of the real term) and have the useful buildings (shops and such) very well highlighted, with a rule being that non-useful houses will have nothing in them. By this rule I just mean that even if the player finds one coin in a box, they'll then smash every box to find more - I feel it'd work very much the same here, if you had one mundane house with something useful in (that wasn't just flavor) the player would be tempted to go through every house.
It's a tricky one, and something I hate to say, but I do feel it needs to be addressed otherwise it'd be just wayyyy too much work for the player.
That or add, you know, law enforcement? :P
EXTREMELY INTERESTING THINGS
Ha! This also.
EXTREMELY INTERESTING THINGS
Ha! This also.
That does sound very interesting, and I too love the idea of not being able to see everything in one play-through, especially when there is such a rich history with each faction/cult/nation. However, I'm still trying to understand how it works - lets say you have 200 houses on your screen (like the lower class district one) - you can't have keys for all the houses, so I'm guessing some will just be permanently locked? Where do you find these keys? Will the houses that you have keys for show up on the screen in a different color/have indicators?
Sorry for the stream of questions, I just can't imagine how to deal with navigating 200 or so houses!
In other news, yesterday the roads in URR turned to lava and farms ceased to have crops. It was basically the apocalypse, but IT HAS NOW BEEN FIXED.ALL HAIL THE ROADS OF LAVA, FROM STONE TO FIRE, FROM STONE TO FIRE!
In other news, yesterday the roads in URR turned to lava and farms ceased to have crops. It was basically the apocalypse, but IT HAS NOW BEEN FIXED.ALL HAIL THE ROADS OF LAVA, FROM STONE TO FIRE, FROM STONE TO FIRE!
(please include a reference to lava roads in your cult creation!)
I guess it does answer my question and does sound very exciting (see: heavy convulsions of excitement) but I still just can't imagine how it could be manageable and not a bit of a grind fest of checking loads of houses.
For instance, if you've got 200 or so houses per area, and without specific guidance (which might mean highlighting) I can imagine it being a bit of a slog just trying loads of random houses, even with some rough directions (and I can't imagine how to do really good ones with procedurally generated terrain/features). Similarly, having loads of houses that you could potentially enter which might have great stuff in (but which you don't have keys for) might grate a bit on some players.
I completely agree that magic location isn't great, but perhaps the houses (or doors) you have keys for could glow/highlight when you're near? I just think that with so many houses/buildings and such a deep history/atmosphere, you don't want the main part of the game to be 'hunt the house'.
Too bad that this is extremely low fantasy. I'd love some vengeful god turning floor into lava.
Oh, my. It's been a while since I last checked up on this project, and... wow. I'm tempted to put myself into cryostasis with instructions to be awoken when the game is complete.
The amount of dedication you're putting into every part of the work is just astounding. There aren't many devs that are willing to pay so much attention to one aspect of the game to the point of ensuring that shop signs are made of the proper wood. Really. That is some serious attention to detail.
I can just imagine seeing the streets of a city bustling with workers, or a plaza hosting an execution attended by crowds of onlookers, or the scorched remains of a town after it is sacked by an opposing army.
I'm really excited for this. :D
Haha, you and me both!
QuoteHaha, you and me both!
While I know what you mean I am chosing to misinterpret it.
Uhhh URR, I think there is a bit of logistical problems with you freezing yourself until the game is done. In that... I think you need to be awake to finish it... unless you aren't the... Your a robot!
Some pretty nice work there. Looks well on it's way to being the most visually stunning rogue-like I've seen.
Do you mind saying a bit about how the time limit is going to work? I'm generally not a fan of time limits, but I don't mind them when they err on the side of generous (e.g. you can take your time, but you can't scum for instance). I generally like to take my time & explore the world, would be a shame if that wasn't possible.
Some pretty nice work there. Looks well on it's way to being the most visually stunning rogue-like I've seen.
Do you mind saying a bit about how the time limit is going to work? I'm generally not a fan of time limits, but I don't mind them when they err on the side of generous (e.g. you can take your time, but you can't scum for instance). I generally like to take my time & explore the world, would be a shame if that wasn't possible.
Seconded.
Thank you, and sure! Well, the timer is best compared to the corruptions system in ADOM. It's not a food clock where you have to constantly top it up, but rather-snip-
Thank you, and sure! Well, the timer is best compared to the corruptions system in ADOM. It's not a food clock where you have to constantly top it up, but rather-snip-
Very interesting indeed. I love the idea of not being able to visit everywhere, especially when everything is newly generated each game - with enough difference between nations/places this would become something truly, truly remarkable. Tossing up the choice between visiting the Shining desert kingdom of Aaz'rh or the Swamp Citadel of Ringantal whilst knowing you only have enough time to do one would make me squirm in a truly horrified and fascinated manner.
I think what most people are opposed to is a sort of food/age clock which progresses on arbitrarily whilst you're just wandering around taking in the sights. From what you've said, it sounds like you're just tying it to strategic/logistical issues (such as travelling between cities, sending messages etc.) instead of the actual wandering around type stuff?
If you are, I would suggest to still have the days progress very slowly whilst you're on foot (maybe 24/48 minutes per day?) - nothing is more jarring than games where time completely stops when you're not purposefully waiting/resting.
snip-snipThat sounds very interesting - I'm sure there will be a lot of balancing to come later but that's a very 'cross the bridge when we come to it' kinda thing.
snip-snipThat sounds very interesting - I'm sure there will be a lot of balancing to come later but that's a very 'cross the bridge when we come to it' kinda thing.
Those four screenshots of districts stitched together look amazing, you really get a sense of what it'll look like all together. Just as a tiny wrinkle, from both a sort of realism and ease of play perspective it might be good to have a main-ish road running through the slum to the front gate. At ground level I imagine it might be difficult to navigate without one and while slums are supposed to be hard to navigate, having a focal point might make it a lot more reasonable.
I figuratively and literally can't wait for the next release!
I hope that even if you implement a timer, you'll also implement a sand-box mode purely for exploration as well. The patterns your worlds generate make me feel like they need to be explored fully to be appreciated, and there is a kind of fun that can be had by leisurely breaking into mansions and interacting with their gardens and interiors.
I just want to kick things into a volcano when all is said and done.
I hope that even if you implement a timer, you'll also implement a sand-box mode purely for exploration as well. The patterns your worlds generate make me feel like they need to be explored fully to be appreciated, and there is a kind of fun that can be had by leisurely breaking into mansions and interacting with their gardens and interiors.I confess, I have no particular plans to do that. If I did, it would be like wizard mode in most roguelikes, i.e. a mode that is very explicitly just for testing/experimenting, but even that's unlikely (since so much of the game will be focused on exploration, secrets and figuring out what to do, any kind of wizmode would really ruin that).
I'd rather just have a way to export the world map upon completion or death before the save gets removed, so then you can commemorate/share a particularly cool city or something without breaking the gameplay challenge.
I definitely think it's best not to have a mode like that - I find with a lot of games that have that mode it quickly becomes boring for the people who use it, and that creates tension with people saying that they've 'done everything' and want more. This is especially true with a game that is mostly exploration, as after you've explored everything the fun probably diminishes a lot.
I'd rather just have a way to export the world map upon completion or death before the save gets removed, so then you can commemorate/share a particularly cool city or something without breaking the gameplay challenge.
I definitely think it's best not to have a mode like that - I find with a lot of games that have that mode it quickly becomes boring for the people who use it, and that creates tension with people saying that they've 'done everything' and want more. This is especially true with a game that is mostly exploration, as after you've explored everything the fun probably diminishes a lot.
Agreed, the impact of the actual discovery is totally lessened if you can just press Ctrl+Z and wander around and see everything anyway :\I'd rather just have a way to export the world map upon completion or death before the save gets removed, so then you can commemorate/share a particularly cool city or something without breaking the gameplay challenge.
This is a great idea! Maybe something like the Civ "replay" map at the end of the game where it shows you every nation spreading, maybe something similar that gives you a mini-replay of your actions and you can save/export parts of the world you'd like to share?
I suspect that people will constantly clamor for a feature that removes time restrictions or allows some form of greater world access, and the fan base may become divided on this issue in the future. I tend to distrust examples of people seemingly growing bored with games after using "that mode" simply because a counterfactual where that same person was never exposed to "too much content" does not exist. I find it more convincing that people already bored with a game seek novelty by removing prior restrictions, and actually extend the game's lifespan for themselves.
Please don't take this as criticism. I just want to offer an alternate outlook to ensure that you are keeping your design goals well-thought out. ;D
I suspect that people will constantly clamor for a feature that removes time restrictions or allows some form of greater world access, and the fan base may become divided on this issue in the future. I tend to distrust examples of people seemingly growing bored with games after using "that mode" simply because a counterfactual where that same person was never exposed to "too much content" does not exist. I find it more convincing that people already bored with a game seek novelty by removing prior restrictions, and actually extend the game's lifespan for themselves.
Please don't take this as criticism. I just want to offer an alternate outlook to ensure that you are keeping your design goals well-thought out. ;D
I certainly agree that with some games sandbox modes are absolutely a good addition and I love such features. The only issue with URR is that it's primarily (from what I gather) an exploration game, or at least that's a huge part of it. If you allow the player to see pretty much everything in one sitting, that part of the game is pretty much over. Sure you might want to go back over cool stuff again as a new character and whatever, but why bother when you can just load up your old save (or the version with an alive, hard as nails character) and just see everything using that.
I think a balance can be reached with a relaxed time frame which doesn't make the player feel rushed but that they don't have time to go to on extremely long trips that aren't on their path. I would suggest though that any timelimits need to be very well worked into the game, as nothing drives people more crazy than arbitrary time limits.
This is just my gaming habits or opinions and I might not be the intended audience,
but i can say that I am one that dislike timers because i put an effort into building a character and just the possibility of not being able to use something i have put an effort into annoys me.
And just because i tend to build my character I also tend to do as much as I can with it because I do not play a second time just to find the lesser percentage of the things I did not find.
The times I play a game again, often months or years after the first time. tends to be because I liked what I did the first time and kinda want to do it again.
I generally dislike timers too, but I know far too little about the story mode to really justify having an opinion about it.
I'm mostly just looking forward to a more finished version of the game! I know there's some alpha versions or whatever on your site but I can wait, for now...
I play most any kind of game but I would say you are wrong in the case of a FPS game, one cancan do everything/whatever one wants.
This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure I've fully got what you mean. Surely by this logic - do you only play sandbox games? An FPS, say, with different levels is in the way you've described it no different from a food/corruption/whatever timer - you have to move forward, you cannot do everything/whatever you want. As I read it, you're basically saying you dislike non-sandbox games? Which is obviously totally fine! I'm just interested in whether I'm reading that correctly.
the only content that I do not see is the content that gets locked out due to the consequences of my choices. In a good RPG with many choices that might be up to 10% perhaps, But in recent RPG games the consequences of the players choices tends to matter so little that there barely is any difference between the playthroughs.
I play most any kind of game but I would say you are wrong in the case of a FPS game, one cancan do everything/whatever one wants.
Its just that there isn't anything else to do than to move forward, because looking at the details of the room can't be that interesting for long.
I was thinking of rpg games in my last post, and out of the old goodies i can only recall fallout having a timer which didn't matter unless one spent a lot of time traveling on the overworld map.
When i play a good crpg game I go through the area to find all the things I can find and the only content that I do not see is the content that gets locked out due to the consequences of my choices. In a good RPG with many choices that might be up to 10% perhaps, But in recent RPG games the consequences of the players choices tends to matter so little that there barely is any difference between the playthroughs.
I might pull out a good game again, Just like re-reading a good favorite book. Maybe I find some more content, but mostly because I've forgotten most of the dialogue and want to do it all again.
Did I make more sense out of it this time?
Yeah it seems as though this is going as more of a 'choice based' (in the most flexible sense of the word) timer where you just can't do everything due to time, rather than a just a case of not being able to enjoy yourself and relax in wandering around.
It's hard to speculate, but I'd say 20-30% of stuff is probably about the right amount of stuff to have to miss. I think more than that and the player might feel a bit cheated/try to break the rules, but less than that and It'd be a bit meaningless.
Regardless, making a choice which causes something else to be locked out completely is something that I really enjoy in RPGs - it gives a lot of weight behind choices, especially if you can't undo it. I'd really like to see that kinda thing in URR.
In response to 'THE BIG ANNOUNCEMENT', I firstly want to say congratulations! I'm incredibly excited both to see the progress, and that you've got the chance to work on it for a years time - living the dream!
Although I have no idea about your situation, one thing I'd suggest (what I did!) if you are trying to live frugally is to consider moving to a cheaper country. I know it seems painstakingly obvious, but moving to somewhere like Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania can basically double your finances and are fantastic places to live. Also, even if you aren't going down the KS road, I'd suggest at least allowing donation - DF does fantastically out of it, and I'm sure many people would be willing to give you at least some money for soy milk.
And to think, just 3 or 4 years ago you completed Nethack for the first time!
Ahh, I do see what you mean. Interesting, and that makes total sense. You're definitely right modern games don't generally exclude certain parts of content if you go a certain route; I think I would have see that as a flaw, though. If you only exclude a little through player choices it rarely seems "worth" a second playthrough, and I think that's a mistake - game-design-wise, I think it makes sense to either have a game where your choices have a massive effect on the content you can/cannot access, and you can only see a small portion of the content in one release, or just don't bother. Take Skyrim - I haven't really played it, but from what I hear the civil war choice is basically pointless. That seems daft.When i play skyrim i dont even bother with quests unless theres a good item reward or similar benefit. or just because i want a target to try my character against. Because really, the plot sucks and the dialogues is on the level of SNES japanese RPGs.
URR will definitely be the former - and this leads me onto the next answer - but I'll definitely have a game where large sections are unlocked/locked based on your decisions.This is good because that gives the player the impression that his choices matters.
Ahh, I do see what you mean. Interesting, and that makes total sense. You're definitely right modern games don't generally exclude certain parts of content if you go a certain route; I think I would have see that as a flaw, though. If you only exclude a little through player choices it rarely seems "worth" a second playthrough, and I think that's a mistake - game-design-wise, I think it makes sense to either have a game where your choices have a massive effect on the content you can/cannot access, and you can only see a small portion of the content in one release, or just don't bother. Take Skyrim - I haven't really played it, but from what I hear the civil war choice is basically pointless. That seems daft.When i play skyrim i dont even bother with quests unless theres a good item reward or similar benefit. or just because i want a target to try my character against. Because really, the plot sucks and the dialogues is on the level of SNES japanese RPGs.
If you have time, try playing Planescape tornment, fallout 1 or 2 or Baldurs gate. I recommend Planescape.URR will definitely be the former - and this leads me onto the next answer - but I'll definitely have a game where large sections are unlocked/locked based on your decisions.This is good because that gives the player the impression that his choices matters.
Perhaps what i wanted to have said about the timer is that I do not want the timer to drive me on to a new area before i am done exhausting the stuff i can do in the current one.
Well I remember you telling me about the first time you completed Nethack and discussing the pros and cons of different RLs as I was firmly in the DCSS camp - I'll leave you to ponder who I am and where you know me from - it gave me quite a surprise!!
That's awesome! And definitely better than kickstarter. Those always seem to have more cons than pros.
Roughly 4 or 5 years ago, before I went off to Finland.
... Sure, it would boost the publicity of the game somewhat, ...
... Sure, it would boost the publicity of the game somewhat, ...
I think the guys over @ RPS have your back (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/07/07/yes-ultima-ratio-regum-dev-to-build-worlds-full-time/) on that note. :)
Cool. (Pre-emptive) welcome to Lincolnshire, my home county, I hope you like it there!
Great work! I've been watching this for a good while, but I've yet to play it. How playable is URR at the moment, as of version 0.5.1? Is combat implemented yet? Or are you mainly focusing on the world-building mechanics, to create the framework for the actual gameplay development later on?
As for the name itself, Latin for "The Last Resort of Kings", it seems the phrase, while originally referred to war declarations, has gained a strong connotation towards cannons and artillery over the centuries. Louis XIV of France had it cast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ultima_Ratio_Regum_Cannon.jpg) on the cannons of his armies, and it's the motto of at least a couple of artillery units. There's also a somewhat related quote from Frederick the Great, "Do not forget your great guns, which are the most respectable arguments of the rights of kings." :P
So that begs a bonus question: will there be cannons? :D
Things are still ticking over, albeit slowly; thesis is going well though, which means I should be able to start the full-time URR year when I move in September, but started seriously working on the military city districts and the next fortress archetype (for the wise civilization that prefers their forts to be of a pentagonal nature). This downtime really sucks, but the full-timing will, I think, rather more than make up for it :)Awesome, you post here!
Awesome, you post here!
Anyway just wanted to know if you plan to make URR (easily) moddable? Sorry if it's been asked already, but 146 pages is a lot of text. I'd love to be able to tinker around with the game's balance and add content to it post-release.
Yeah I suspected as much, thanks anyway. I'll be waiting anxiously for the next release.Awesome, you post here!
Anyway just wanted to know if you plan to make URR (easily) moddable? Sorry if it's been asked already, but 146 pages is a lot of text. I'd love to be able to tinker around with the game's balance and add content to it post-release.
I do indeed! I'm afraid not - there's no plans to make URR moddable at this time. I'm always very open to ideas, and once we get to gameplay development I'll be very interested in any and all balance/design feedback, but modding isn't on the cards, alas.
Yeah I suspected as much, thanks anyway. I'll be waiting anxiously for the next release.
How have I never seen this thread before? This looks amazing.
Is there a wiki or an overview of what you hope to make the game look like when it's "done" (or as done as such things ever are)?
I'm glad to say in my upcoming full-time-development-year, a Linux native version is one goal. Hopefully from 0.7 onwards (next version is 0.6). But if you get it working, do let me know! :)Yeah, I'll test it when I get computer access.
URR opens flawlessly with wineskin, now time to play it.You didn't look hard enough at those ziggurats, then. The doors are only a single tile and can be a bit tricky to spot, but they're there. You can also open up the encyclopedia (forgot the hotkey) to read about your world's history.
Edit: Is there much you can do besides wander around the world? Most sites are inaccessible, ziggurats appear to be just buildings with nothing inside, and farms or people don't exist.
E. Yes, the history and stuff is interesting. Is the entrance on the bottom level?URR opens flawlessly with wineskin, now time to play it.You didn't look hard enough at those ziggurats, then. The doors are only a single tile and can be a bit tricky to spot, but they're there. You can also open up the encyclopedia (forgot the hotkey) to read about your world's history.
Edit: Is there much you can do besides wander around the world? Most sites are inaccessible, ziggurats appear to be just buildings with nothing inside, and farms or people don't exist.
It is indeed - a white door. Currently the game is worldbuilding-focused - the core gameplay mechanic involves manipulating the world and the world's history, and as much as I'd love to get onto the gameplay immediately, you can't fiddle with a world without a detailed world in place! My full-time development year (starting ~October) is designed to totally finish the worldbuilding aspects of the game, something that should be easily achievable with a full-time year.Ok, cool. But you can't really manipulate the world currently, right?
It is indeed - a white door. Currently the game is worldbuilding-focused - the core gameplay mechanic involves manipulating the world and the world's history, and as much as I'd love to get onto the gameplay immediately, you can't fiddle with a world without a detailed world in place! My full-time development year (starting ~October) is designed to totally finish the worldbuilding aspects of the game, something that should be easily achievable with a full-time year.Ok, cool. But you can't really manipulate the world currently, right?
Ok. It should be fun when you can do that.It is indeed - a white door. Currently the game is worldbuilding-focused - the core gameplay mechanic involves manipulating the world and the world's history, and as much as I'd love to get onto the gameplay immediately, you can't fiddle with a world without a detailed world in place! My full-time development year (starting ~October) is designed to totally finish the worldbuilding aspects of the game, something that should be easily achievable with a full-time year.Ok, cool. But you can't really manipulate the world currently, right?
Nooo! Not at all, but that's only because the world isn't finished yet. I have actually implemented some of the appropriate data structures, but they're "disabled" and incomplete atm.
I've got a question. Will there be technological advancement? Obviously the game generates a whole solar system, including atmospheres for the various planets. Does that mean we will at some point have the means to visit them?
I've got a question. Will there be technological advancement? Obviously the game generates a whole solar system, including atmospheres for the various planets. Does that mean we will at some point have the means to visit them?
Mmm love that Poise bar. I mean, it is one thing to be a warrior of legend... but if you can't do it while looking great in some fashionable clothes you might as well not bother.
I was planning to upload another non-URR post today, but Sunday has crept up upon me with alarming speed and I haven’t actually finished the one I was working on. So, instead, here is a very short and screenshot-heavy update for this week instead with a couple of things I’ve thrown together. As well as the fortress above, I also on a whim threw together some graphics for a future release, 2 or 3 down the line, once I start putting together ships and trade routes. These are just stylized graphics to denote the different classes of ship, military and transport, when you look them up in the Encyclopedia. Alongside them you’ll see information like the ship’s schedule, its armaments, what it trades in, its captain, etc etc.Cool. Do you plan to let the player go on/captain a ship with that release?
(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2014/08/URR-ships.png)
Also did a little bit of work on making Upper Class Housing districts just that little bit snazzier (as ever, this graphic is generated, there’s over a hundred possible variations):
(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2014/08/TerrainTest.png)
Next week I'll be back to non-URR updates on my blog for a little while, but around the start of October remains the target for starting the full-time year! See you all next week...
Cool. Do you plan to let the player go on/captain a ship with that release?
Mmk. What do you have planned for .7 and .8?Cool. Do you plan to let the player go on/captain a ship with that release?
INDEED! Though it will not be the next release (0.6). Probably .9 or .10, based on my current development plan (almost certainly 0.9).
Mmk. What do you have planned for .7 and .8?
So this is kind of veering back to the original idea by letting the player be in charge of some things?Cool. Do you plan to let the player go on/captain a ship with that release?
INDEED! Though it will not be the next release (0.6). Probably .9 or .10, based on my current development plan (almost certainly 0.9).
So this is kind of veering back to the original idea by letting the player be in charge of some things?Cool. Do you plan to let the player go on/captain a ship with that release?
INDEED! Though it will not be the next release (0.6). Probably .9 or .10, based on my current development plan (almost certainly 0.9).
My interest is again grabbed.
It's been a very long while i didn't checked URR , i just did and wow.
Amazing piece of world exploration, the visual is really great, trees are superb, and those 2D arts pieces i see everywhere are fantastic i wasn't expecting when i pressed l and was looking at a tree foliage and the terrain under it to see actual artwork to describe what i was seeing.
Of course it's only 0.5 so there are many things i can't yet get to and there's limited amount of sight seeing to do then, but the potential of awesome is there and from what i read on your website, there's a lot more to explore and discover in the next version.
Keep it up !
I checked out of this for quite a while, and just read up on it today.
OH HOLY HELL YES THIS IS AMAZING THANK YOU
But the way you describe it, and what I think you mean by your question, the answer's no - I mean, you're going to be changing the entire face of the world, but you won't be "in charge of things" like armies etc.I didn't mean specifically that, but just that in general the scope has now definitely widened considerably beyond, "Find dungeons, explore dungeons, find more dungeons."
TRICKERY AND DECEIT.
I had just settled in for a long read of the finer points of URR development - cup of tea in one hand, delicious cake in other - and was fooled!
By the all knowing ancestors of the Pry'Keru hierocracy, I demand satisfaction!
But the way you describe it, and what I think you mean by your question, the answer's no - I mean, you're going to be changing the entire face of the world, but you won't be "in charge of things" like armies etc.I didn't mean specifically that, but just that in general the scope has now definitely widened considerably beyond, "Find dungeons, explore dungeons, find more dungeons."
core of the game is the manipulation of the world's history
Quotecore of the game is the manipulation of the world's history
So will we be changing the history of the world through interactions with some long-forgotten (though possibly not gone) civilization (or possibly History Channel-style ancient aliens) or the artifacts they left behind in order to avert impending doom somehow connected to the aligning of planets (or possibly History Channel-style ancient aliens)? It's these little bits of info you give that throw my hyperactive brain into overdrive.
That's an excellent post!
Yes, interesting post. Would we be able to make maps, for example, to mislead others?
I love mental-idea-spirals, especially when devs have them! :)
I've strangely been following URR development since the first time it showed up on roguebasin but I haven't played any since one of the first couple versions :> Maybe I should change that soon.. Been patiently waiting for more flesh on the bones, mostly.. Just wanted to say you're awesome for not giving up on this (it seems to be a Dwarf-Fortress-amount of work), and for actively communicating with the fans, and finally that I'm looking forward to (eventually) seeing a near-final end-result :D
Keep on keeping on! :>
Looking fantastic as always, I cannot wait to wander around them!
Have you thought about adding underground areas? things like escape tunnels and caves out of the forts could be very useful in sieges.
PTW, this looks somewhat intriguing. Going to have to check this out later.
Careful rebalance of the factions and units
Modular MiniYAML game logic parser instead of simple INI rules
New units: such as sniper or flak truck
Right-click orders to avoid miss-clicks
Fog of War hides enemy units
Spectator mode and replays for e-Sport events
Support for mods and mini-games
Tabbed build palette which allows queuing
Bounties for kills and unit ranks
New effects: e.g. tank husks and aircraft trails
Lua scripting instead of hard-coded mission triggers
A non-cheating AI that is still challenging
Integration of a content delivery platform for custom maps.
I have! I've seen a few videos of it on Youtube and it looks great, though the absolute purist in me is slightly annoyed by the fact they've changed a small number of the weapon animations and that kind of thing (I think Nod's artillery have been altered a bit?). Either way, when I have a bit of time I'm definitely considering giving it a look, I've always wanted to play some multiplayer on the classic C&Cs!
and started to seriously think about how docks were going to work before realizing I needed to do a lot more research first on how the hell 17th-century ships actually docked.
looks great as always. You might already be aware of this, but the image link is broken on your website for a few people at least (myself being one of them).
I like this. I understand you're pretty much doing a realistic game, so i wonder how you want to give that feel? I'm particularly interested in day to day life.
As always, phenomenal.
One thing I'd really, really like to see in this though is a number of different 'levels' of religious buildings and a central ruling place for the religion. For instance, church->city cathedral->central cathedral.
I know this is a lot of extra work, but with a modular design I could imagine that it might not be too difficult. This would allow you to have more options via policy, and also allow for a rather interesting 'gradient' effect, where as you get closer to the central ruling position of the religions, their buildings could grow larger. Similarly, smaller religions may never have anything above small temples.
I can well imagine that this might cause problems in recognizability however, so you'd need to do some careful work to get around that, but I think it'd be very worth while.
Eeeexcellent. I do intend to have two levels for each religious building, a "small" type like shown here that might also appear in towns, in other districts etc, and then a "large" version that each religion will only have one of, that will be its main religious hub (like the vatican) that can be found generally in city centres. With modular design as you say it wouldn't be that hard, should only be a day's work to create the larger versions of each tile. Religions for hunter-gatherer civs won't have anything vatican-esque, only these religions that show up in feudal civilizations, but I think all of them should have a religious 'hub' building somewhere. I'm currently in the process of figuring out how city centres are going to generate, and I think I have a good idea for the method that could include (or not) religious hubs whether or not one needs to spawn in that nation. For theocratic nations that religious building would also be the seat of government/rule.
Bow to me, the lord of feature creep!!
I think that sounds great, I really like the idea of a few levels - I feel the more the better (or 3-4) would be good, but obviously a line needs to be drawn. Perhaps very small shrines could also spawn in villages?
Perhaps hunter-gatherer civs would be more inclined to have a 'sacred ground' which could be a natural landscape feature (like a big rock) or something like a ziggurat? Perhaps others would have an elders hut/circle/area, or to a sacrificial place - which may or may not be in the settlement itself. It'd be incredible to see villagers going on a sort of mini-pilgrimage (I think there's a proper Anthropological word for that) to the village elders or their spiritual place.
This could also lead to some interesting game play interactions where the player would need to respect (or horribly defile) their sacred areas/elders/whatever.
Romans also kept small shrines to the household deity in the main room where they left offerings, if you feel that religions need even more unique forms of worship.
World War 1 extremely interesting stuffThat sounds like a great project! I've been programming in Python with Libtcod and it's really great - you can use tiles (easily) as well if you feel the need. I taught a friend how to use it and although I've had some past experience in programming, it was my first big project and Py+Libtcod was easy enough to get my head around.
Lots of interesting words
I really love how the cities are shaping up - they're better than I could have ever imagined!
My one issue is that I'm unsure why cultism would be a civilization type. Is this more of a 'religion is banned' civ (which obviously causes cultism to spring up)?
I'd just like to reiterate on what's been said about 'not giving the player enough control'. It's very easy to think that just dropping the player down in a simulated world and letting them find there own path is enough (the 'emergent gameplay' approach) but even early on in my cyberRogue project (which tried to emulate a cyberpunk city) it was easy to see that the player needed clear objectives and ways of influencing things.
Man of paper, worry about making it emotionally impactful and then about the rest. If that means dwelling on your life before the war (because come on, who of your audience knows much about life in 1895), examining the home front, using real stories from the soldiers themselves, do it. WW1 shouldn't be "a hardcore mode". Hell, tell the players at the end that all the personalities (preferably everyone :P) in the game, including who they shot, were based off real people, and show their memorials.
Shovel Buddies
the lack of outcome
Quotethe lack of outcome
To me that is probably what kills sandbox games pretty much every time.
If survival by itself is a big enough goal, this can work out ok just on it's own. For instance, and I know it's a strange comparison, but a lot of zombie games (like dead island/rising) have you completing objectives, but it's not about actually wiping out all the zombies - they're the survival backdrop to your own quests. This could work well in a WW1 setting - the war is really just a dangerous 'living' backdrop to your own story.
Fantastic! I love the city exploration screen. I was wondering how you'd make it manageable for the player to get round these huge cities, and that should certainly help!
As usual, a critical comment:
I love the special factors of religions, but I feel that exclusions feel a bit game-y. All the other factors are quite deep and in fitting with their real world counterparts, but weapon exclusions seem a bit too 'rpg' and so sort of out of place. Obviously religions should have their conducts and related sins, but perhaps exclusions could be widened?
It's difficult for me to make suggestions as I'm unsure what gameplay mechanics are going in which could then be made into conducts (and weapons could be one of them), but I can imagine things like not allowing the player to wear types of fabric, or using wooden items. Secondly, I'd like to think some religions have tiered levels of 'sin', so some may dislike the use of wooden items, but HATE the use of wooden weapons.
I like all of it. Even the weapon exclusions. While I do agree it feels game-y, when it comes down to it, URR is a game. Implementing religions with limitations attached opens up some really interesting playstyle options and even challenges that yield rewards. Think about it: if you want an awesome sword, join a religion like the one in the screenie up there. Do the stuff that makes them happy, avoid using bows, and eventually some high priest fellow may hand you an epic weapon. From there, you're free to leave the religion and join another, since there is no serious penalty for doing so.
I like it a lot.
I dunno about the no serious penalty thing. Apostates and heretics are often seen as worse than non-believers. To the point of getting executed for it. I wouldn't want to run into a group from a religion I became a fixture for then turned my back on.
I do think weapon exclusions have a place, I just don't like the idea of all/most religions having weapon exclusions as a major factor in religion, as that just seems a bit flat somehow. I can imagine other exclusions like 'humble travellers - not allowing the player to travel by lavish means' or certain materials being banned or whatever which could add a lot more flavour. Some could have no hard exclusions/conducts, and instead just be about following general rules.
There should definitely be huge penalties for leaving - I think that's what makes religions such a choice in games (like DCSS) - I would like to see more of a gradient though. More than this though, I wonder how you're going to deal with religious infractions being reported? I mean, is it going to be an omnipotent thing, or will it need someone to actually report it?
That whole "religions are all the same" aspect comes pretty much exclusively from Dungeons and Dragons.
Which I have to say as far as "religions" are concerned is probably one of the worst in fiction. The mythologies in dnd are interesting but the religions are cartoony or non-existent most of the time.
I do think weapon exclusions have a place, I just don't like the idea of all/most religions having weapon exclusions as a major factor in religion, as that just seems a bit flat somehow. I can imagine other exclusions like 'humble travellers - not allowing the player to travel by lavish means' or certain materials being banned or whatever which could add a lot more flavour. Some could have no hard exclusions/conducts, and instead just be about following general rules.
There should definitely be huge penalties for leaving - I think that's what makes religions such a choice in games (like DCSS) - I would like to see more of a gradient though. More than this though, I wonder how you're going to deal with religious infractions being reported? I mean, is it going to be an omnipotent thing, or will it need someone to actually report it?
I really like the banning method of travel idea! That could be very interesting, some forbid mountain/desert/ocean travel. That would be a major exclusion though, I think, compared to weapons, but it could still be good. Maybe some poverty/wealth ones - some religions bar you from wearing armour above a certain value (poverty is great!), whilst others ban you wearing armour below a certain value (don't make our religion look poor/unimportant!). Actually, having typed those out, I really like them. They're going in!
More of a gradient is certainly possible. Atm it's just nothing/excommunication (i.e. no help from worshippers, won't sell to you, etc) and active hostility. I could break hostility and excomm down, perhaps - won't talk, won't trade, won't do either, will attack you if provoked, will attack you on sight...
You've hit upon a core question I haven't settled in my head yet re: omnipotence. I see several options.
1) Your player cannot commit an infraction. You try to wield a knife, it says "You cannot wield this whilst worshipping X, are you sure you want to?", pressing yes destroys relationship with religion. Slightly gamey.
2) As above, you aren't prevented, but religions auto-know. Something like "Rumours have reached the [Religion Leader] about your infractions, and you have been excommunicated."
3) No omnipotence. Who sees your actions matters. I'm... not sure about this one. It seems easy enough to code, but I'm worried it will make it too easy to avoid the exclusions.
I haven't reached a conclusion on this one in the slightest, and I think there is something to be said for all three options. I'm guessing most people think #3 is the best option? I'm leaning towards #2, honestly, especially since the game has no "stealth" mechanics, and 3 might encourage a kind of make-shift "stealth", and... I'm not sure how I feel about that.
I really like the banning method of travel idea! That could be very interesting, some forbid mountain/desert/ocean travel. That would be a major exclusion though, I think, compared to weapons, but it could still be good. Maybe some poverty/wealth ones - some religions bar you from wearing armour above a certain value (poverty is great!), whilst others ban you wearing armour below a certain value (don't make our religion look poor/unimportant!). Actually, having typed those out, I really like them. They're going in!
More of a gradient is certainly possible. Atm it's just nothing/excommunication (i.e. no help from worshippers, won't sell to you, etc) and active hostility. I could break hostility and excomm down, perhaps - won't talk, won't trade, won't do either, will attack you if provoked, will attack you on sight...
You've hit upon a core question I haven't settled in my head yet re: omnipotence. I see several options.
1) Your player cannot commit an infraction. You try to wield a knife, it says "You cannot wield this whilst worshipping X, are you sure you want to?", pressing yes destroys relationship with religion. Slightly gamey.
2) As above, you aren't prevented, but religions auto-know. Something like "Rumours have reached the [Religion Leader] about your infractions, and you have been excommunicated."
3) No omnipotence. Who sees your actions matters. I'm... not sure about this one. It seems easy enough to code, but I'm worried it will make it too easy to avoid the exclusions.
I haven't reached a conclusion on this one in the slightest, and I think there is something to be said for all three options. I'm guessing most people think #3 is the best option? I'm leaning towards #2, honestly, especially since the game has no "stealth" mechanics, and 3 might encourage a kind of make-shift "stealth", and... I'm not sure how I feel about that.
The player is a member of a noble family in their starting civ, so it would be a little hard to be a nobody, except if you're far from home or something.
Give the player psychological reasons, like getting terrible guilt about violating the tenets of his religion, which causes penalties. The higher his piety/rank/whatever in the religion the worse the guilt/penalties. Let them cleanse that guilt by dunno, donating or sacrificing or whatevs.
Also make the social consequences higher the more notoriety or something the character has. So, anyone who belongs to a religion (and doesn't get killed before being able to tell someone) can tell on the player, but if the player is just some nobody then no one is going to remember his actions anyway.
Hmm, that's a good point. As below, maybe I need a broader range of punishments?Different religions should have different ways to deal with heretics. At least for the sake of variety, just throwing some brainstorming ideas:
some religions bar you from wearing armour above a certain value (poverty is great!), whilst others ban you wearing armour below a certain value (don't make our religion look poor/unimportant!). Actually, having typed those out, I really like them. They're going in!Awesome idea, and it reflects reality too. One of Islam's virtues is (or used to be?) modesty. Being flashy, wearing too many jewelries, making big donations without hiding your name, and building giant mosques which are so richly decorated that could buy an entire city is (was?) very frowned upon.
You've hit upon a core question I haven't settled in my head yet re: omnipotence. I see several options.
1) Your player cannot commit an infraction. You try to wield a knife, it says "You cannot wield this whilst worshipping X, are you sure you want to?", pressing yes destroys relationship with religion. Slightly gamey.
2) As above, you aren't prevented, but religions auto-know. Something like "Rumours have reached the [Religion Leader] about your infractions, and you have been excommunicated."
3) No omnipotence. Who sees your actions matters. I'm... not sure about this one. It seems easy enough to code, but I'm worried it will make it too easy to avoid the exclusions.
I haven't reached a conclusion on this one in the slightest, and I think there is something to be said for all three options. I'm guessing most people think #3 is the best option? I'm leaning towards #2, honestly, especially since the game has no "stealth" mechanics, and 3 might encourage a kind of make-shift "stealth", and... I'm not sure how I feel about that.
The player is a member of a noble family in their starting civ, so it would be a little hard to be a nobody, except if you're far from home or something.Hmm, I wonder how noble families will be implemented. Will we see Game of Thrones style politics and intrigue?
I'm gonna be frank and say that I mostly still follow this topic for the pretty pictures.
Then again, given that this game doesn't really technically have graphics, that's really damn impressive.
The more ridiculous religions should be treated as such in game. If a poor island nation has a religion that bans ocean travel and swords, they shouldn't be much more then a cult if that. It would just be incredibly gamey if i saw many people signing on for the "lolwut" religions. I also second option 3.
The 'No omnipotence' one sounds pretty much impossible to make work in a meaningful way - best case scenario you'd be encouraging the player to do massive amounts of inventory swapping.
I can imagine a version of the second one where using the item/committing the infraction whilst in 'civilized spheres' may lead to you losing favour with your religion (again, I think a gradient system is a must). Defining 'civilized' spheres may be difficult, but I imagine that at some point you'll want to show (or at least have behind the scenes) the spheres of influence of different ruling groups/religions, so it could be tied to that.
This might lead to interesting gameplay if there were different gradients of civilization. You could have a good chance of avoiding losing favour with a religion in a semi-uncivilized area so you might risk committing an infraction, but you'd probably not dare do anything in very civilized areas. This could alternatively (and more excitingly) be tied to areas of religious influence - committing infractions far outside your religions (and possibly similar religions (think CoE<->Catholic)) influence would be a lot less risky.
Give the player psychological reasons, like getting terrible guilt about violating the tenets of his religion, which causes penalties. The higher his piety/rank/whatever in the religion the worse the guilt/penalties. Let them cleanse that guilt by dunno, donating or sacrificing or whatevs.
Also make the social consequences higher the more notoriety or something the character has. So, anyone who belongs to a religion (and doesn't get killed before being able to tell someone) can tell on the player, but if the player is just some nobody then no one is going to remember his actions anyway.
The player is a member of a noble family in their starting civ, so it would be a little hard to be a nobody, except if you're far from home or something.
Lots
QuoteThis might lead to interesting gameplay if there were different gradients of civilization. You could have a good chance of avoiding losing favour with a religion in a semi-uncivilized area so you might risk committing an infraction, but you'd probably not dare do anything in very civilized areas. This could alternatively (and more excitingly) be tied to areas of religious influence - committing infractions far outside your religions (and possibly similar religions (think CoE<->Catholic)) influence would be a lot less risky.
Agreed: re: No Omni, I'm definitely leaning heavily away from that one - I hadn't considered the inventory repercussions, but that's definitely true. Now, this gradient idea - that I really like a lot. Civs with that religion could count as ominpotent over errors, civs which border a civ with the religion could be partly omin, and other civs you can do whatever the heck you want and nobody would know. That could be a very clear/explicit three-level thing for the player to understand, I think. I need to add a religion overlay to the world map, so maybe something like "Religious Presence", "Religion Spreading" and "No Religious Presence"? I realize a three-part tiering of this isn't very nuanced, but could work really well with making clear when your infractions will/won't be known. So in the spreading areas, would it be something like "Wielding a forbidden weapon is a 50% chance of discovery"? Or maybe for each X turns you spend in that territory, you have a Y% chance of your religion hearing about it? Or some other method?
Hmm. And maybe each infraction loses one rank whilst doing stuff your religion wants gains a rank. I quite like this idea - the higher up a rank you've gone, the more you can do unacceptable things before your religion kicks you out. There are probably going to be around 5-6 ranks for a religion, so each of those could tolerate one infracton?
Update after 5 minute consideration: I'm putting in the hand/eye/tongue punishments. Hell yes.
My inner dwarf is satisfied! I'm just throwing out ideas so you can modify them to fit into the game design. I don't expect any the ideas to be implemented %100 the way we described here. I didn't really expect you to go all "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED" when I talked about tongue removal :D There is a dev who isn't afraid of anything!
I think a three-part tiering is fine, and a lot more sensible than a full 1-100 style gradient. However, in terms of infractions being known I feel it should be rather more obfuscated/random. I don't feel the player should be 'playing the numbers' with their religion, and should instead just be thinking a bit more naturally. This may just come down to percentages, but I feel they should be some flexibility. I also don't think it should be on wield, but rather on use (or the 'active' version of whatever conduct).
I'd also suggest giving some religions traits that increase/decrease their ability to catch your indiscretions and also the level of punishment.
As far as losing ranks that's exactly what I had in mind! As I said before, I believe some religions should be absolutely zero-tolerance (or perhaps only allow 2 discretions at the highest level), I'd also suggest that the punishment for committing an infraction at the first rank be somewhat lower/gives you a free pass the first time (as long as you're still at the first rank). This would stop the player from being punished when they haven't got much invested in the religion. Probably at worst you'd just get kicked out of the religion and be banned from re-joining.
Lastly, I think it's really important that the player not know if they've committed an infraction until they go back to a main religious building. It'd mean that the player wouldn't make a gamble and then just think 'nope, I've been found out - game over' and just quit/save scum. It'd also cut down on the 'god messages' which I find a bit jarring.
Update after 5 minute consideration: I'm putting in the hand/eye/tongue punishments. Hell yes.
In India, and - if I am not mistaken - Persia, it was a long standing tradition to cut off noses for particularly serious crimes. While less extreme than tongue removal, it is still pretty painful and leaves a clearly visible (and allegedly really ugly) mark, so aside from being a mark, it could reduce your conversational abilities.
As for trading by holding up coins etc. - Chinese have a system where they are able to count up to 100 000 on fingers of one hand (it is hard to describe easily, but I'm sure you could look it up in the Internet, if you are interested), allowing for negotiations to be conducted in silence and without visibility (by touching other party's hand). Civilizations that know this (or similar) technique might not care if you have no tongue during bargaining, while those - like Arabs - who generally consider bargaining a vocal matter might be unhappy that you try to conduct your business silently. This can be interesting also with characters who still have tongue; Chinese developed their systems to avoid publicly stating the prices on goods when trading in the open market, to avoid giving leverage to other trade partners, who could try and get lower price on basis that somebody else already did. And at the very least, it would make for a very different feel of markets - some extremely chaotic and loud, like Arab suk markets, some more peaceful, but still buzzing with constant negotiations, like European ones, and some almost silent, like Chinese, with completely silent bargaining.
Re: religious punishments. Don't forget punitive missions bestowed upon those breaking the rules who still wish to return to the fold. Plus extreme mission options for those who want to return to the fold after the most hideous deeds and punishments.
For example, one huge attractor to go on a Crusade was originally the promise of all sins being forgiven. That attracted many religious veterans who had been involved in questionable actions in wars and were now worried about the afterlife. "Do what you do best, but for the True Faith and you'll get to Heaven!" and all that. Pretty good recruiting speech in a religious mindset.
As another example, when a HRE emperor eventually failed in his power struggle against the pope, he had to do penance by walking to Rome covered in ashes and wearing only a horsehair shirt. According to legend, that is.
I think a three-part tiering is fine,
All good thoughts, I'll definitely have to think about the exact mechanic by which infractions are recorded. I agree though, "use" is more logical than "wield". Interesting re: traits that enhance/decrease observation. I think I'll have to know how exactly infractions work before knowing whether I can implement something of that sort or not!
Nice ideas re: zero tolerance and low-level tolerance. As for finding out when you reach a building only... hmm. The issue with that one would be that once you've reached a high enough level in the religion, you could just infract constantly and never return to a building. At the same time, though, I understand your concern over a god message. Perhaps a compromise could be the next person of that religion you encounter, or the next high-ranking official, or if you've broken the rules someone is dispatched to tell you, or the next time you enter a religion-majority nation, or...
There's a bunch of options, though I'm not sure which works best. On the save scumming, though, I recognize there's nothing I can do to prevent that any more than any other RL, so I'm actually not too concerned about that. Those who want to play properly will, and those who don't, won't, and that's that. HOWEVER, I have ideas for mitigating the severity of this, especially by having some secrets and solutions requiring the input of more than one individual player to solve/deduce.
Re finding out at building: It definitely makes sense for it to be anyone from your religion you talk to. I had envisaged that as there would be no 'magic powers' conferred on you from following a religion, the only place you'd really be able to 'use' your religion would be in religious buildings, but having it as the first person from the religion makes sense. Similarly, a dispatch is probably a good idea, or just when you reach a religion-majority (all good ideas!).
My feeling on save scumming is that whilst you certainly can't stop it, it should not be so trivial that it becomes almost routine. Stopping save scumming was the wrong way of putting it though, I mainly meant in terms of the punishment not being so immediate that it'd cause you to immediate know if it's succeeded or not. I feel reward/punishment that is delayed from the action is something sorely missing in games - usually you do something and you get a star or a slap, whereas it gives choices a lot more gravity if you don't know how they're going to play out further down the line.
Excellent! Yeah, I think something along those lines will work well. Probably a more generalized dispatch system too for NPC from factions finding you, any who want to hunt you down, etc, and this would just be one of those.
Ah, that makes more sense, I think I misinterpreted your comment! You've got me thinking though, about the delayed reward thing as a way to stop savescumming. I've never really considered that, but it makes a lot of sense - the higher the number of choices that are strategic, rather than tactical, the bigger the "unit" of a savescum becomes. Very interesting, especially given the role I do want the strategic layer to play, and the *big* "decision" you'll be making at the end of each "dungeon". I may consider emphasizing those even more as a method to prevent scumming...
And those kind of encounters should be difficult. In Fallout: New Vegas, when Regulators caught up with me, my first reaction was "wow, how awesome. NPCs are responding to my actions!" then after I killed them without breaking a sweat, I was like "Walking EXP bags!" whenever I saw them later on.
In most instances, player should be afraid of the pursuers. If a faction isn't powerful enough or relevant enough (as in geographical distance) to the player, they would probably break off the chase or hire some stronger outside party (like a faction of assassins) to pursue you.
Love the way how the district looks varied btw. All kinds of buildings that should be in a military district seems to be in there.
Yeah an NPC dispatch system would be great, and could allow for a lot of interesting dispatches to keep you up to date with the rest of the world. However, I would suggest a careful think over how to introduce the NPCs arrival - there's nothing worse than an NPC randomly appearing whilst you're in the middle of combat/something interesting. As before, I believe separating the map into 'civilized areas' (where NPCs can find you) and varying levels of wild-ness would help again here, as it'd stop you encountering NPCs randomly out in the wilderness. Obviously this would depend on how determined they were to find you (assassins would travel nearly anywhere for instance).
This might even lead to interesting strategies, where you might stay in the wilderness to stop certain NPCs catching up to you!
And those kind of encounters should be difficult. In Fallout: New Vegas, when Regulators caught up with me, my first reaction was "wow, how awesome. NPCs are responding to my actions!" then after I killed them without breaking a sweat, I was like "Walking EXP bags!" whenever I saw them later on.
In most instances, player should be afraid of the pursuers. If a faction isn't powerful enough or relevant enough (as in geographical distance) to the player, they would probably break off the chase or hire some stronger outside party (like a faction of assassins) to pursue you.
Love the way how the district looks varied btw. All kinds of buildings that should be in a military district seems to be in there.
Agreed, I feel that npc dispatch should be a very important part of the game, as it's probably one of the key mechanisms that you see the results of your actions and get news from parts of the world you're not currently in.
I feel that a key to this would be to allow the player to avoid (or lessen the chance of) the interactions they didn't want by going on different routes/making sure to avoid certain areas. For instance, Unless you did something truly heinous, most religions would probably only dispatch in their area of influence, similarly, government dispatches would only go to within the city and near by areas of the city. My main point of this is that sometimes these sorts of dispatches can get really annoying if you're just trying to do a quest or wanting to get on with another part of the game. This is just because I imagine you'd eventually rack up quite a number of npcs being dispatched towards you, so they should be relevant to the area you're in.
I'd like to think that you'd only get assassins after you if you did something really awful, and they'd obviously need to be incredibly tough (as otherwise why pay for them!?) and that they would instead use more subtle measures to disrupt you. Though perhaps acolytes of certain religions might try to gain favour by taking you on themselves.
Also, some form of high - end sleeping place, like modern five-star hotels, for foreign dignitaries and diplomats, for example? Not everyone is going to sleep in a tavern in some run-down merchant district!In the context of history (which could, of course, turn out differently in URR), diplomats and dignitaries would stay at the castle/palace of the place they visited as official guests, or if they were there for a long duration they would buy a manor of their own to manage while they stayed to petition for their causes. It was the responsibility of the people they guested with to ensure their safety, and it looked bad for you if you couldn't ensure the accommodations of your friends who visited you in your own home.
Very interesting. In terms of other centre buildings I think this is absolutely the most important time to strongly differentiate the cities on policy and really give each one a distinct feel. This would also help differentiate cities that belonged to the same empire (as each empire should probably only have one type of each city).
I'd say some would have a major market (perhaps if they had the 'mercantile' policy) or the headquarters of something akin to the East Africa Trading Company.
Ones with some sort of artistic policy might have an opera/playhouse/gallery of some sort.
Ones with a 'law' policy might have a courthouse/gallows.
Ones with 'aristocracy' policy might have the big houses of nobles.
Ones with a 'medical' policy might have a big hospital/apothecary.
Really, each city needs to have a 'focus' I feel, even if historically most cities in history haven't really had such divisions. I always liked this in the elder scrolls series, where you could go to say a mages guild hall in each city for minor magic stuff, but if you wanted to get REALLY good stuff you needed to go to the imperial college. Basically, to give you a reason to go to each city if you want to focus on something or need something particular. I could imagine that if you might be badly injured or get uniquely poisoned - you'd perhaps want to go to a medical city. If you want to do some heavy trading, you'd want to go to a mercantile one (but might be happy to do normal trading in any city).
Also, I'd imagine big statues/monuments might be in there. It'd be really awesome to be able to see a big monument to a historical war in the centre of the winners, and a memorial to the fallen in the centre of the losers.
Lastly, whilst I know you're trying to keep this quite historical/grounded, I feel city centres are the one place where you can add a bit of flair. I was thinking that some sort of 'seven wonders of the world' kinda thing could be scattered around the world, with these marvels mainly being in the city centre.
Dude, your MS Paint Infographics get to me every time. It might be the lead-in that does it. Should make a tileset using your mastery of paintsmithing.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I would say that courthouse and opera/gallery/theater/amphitheater/circus/arena/something like that would be a very good idea for a city center. Some guilds could have guildhouses/HQs in the city centers too, especially the more elite ones. I don't know - lawyers or something? I could imagine a bank spawning in the city center sometimes, especially bank HQ, if not the normal branch (I'm not sure how are banks working in the URR, really). Some kind of monument/memorial also seems like a good idea. In places that unified measurements and scales you could have a place where you can calibrate your yardstick for a fee, and check whether the merchant is trying to screw you over on the stuff he is selling with a weighted scales (it probably won't see much use, but it would be nice touch). A place of general knowledge might not be a bad idea too - some form of school, maybe not full of books, but with a teacher or two, especially in more advanced civilizations. It might even be a school on level too low for most players to use - some form of elementary school, perhaps? It should not throw the game too much off-balance. Also, some form of high - end sleeping place, like modern five-star hotels, for foreign dignitaries and diplomats, for example? Not everyone is going to sleep in a tavern in some run-down merchant district!
I might come to some other ideas later, too. :)
In the context of history (which could, of course, turn out differently in URR), diplomats and dignitaries would stay at the castle/palace of the place they visited as official guests, or if they were there for a long duration they would buy a manor of their own to manage while they stayed to petition for their causes. It was the responsibility of the people they guested with to ensure their safety, and it looked bad for you if you couldn't ensure the accommodations of your friends who visited you in your own home.
Politics was more akin to family relations. When the distant cousins come over, you put them up.
Hotels were not really a thing. Though as I said, they could definitely change depending on how things developed in the world.
How will you handle castles? Castles were crowded places and as a result, a lot of intrigue took place. It sounds difficult to create that atmosphere.
when will the next version be released?
How will you handle castles? Castles were crowded places and as a result, a lot of intrigue took place. It sounds difficult to create that atmosphere.
HMMMMMM. I hadn't considered that kind of atmospheric issue. I'm honestly not sure yet - I've started some research into layouts, and as they count as interiors they'll be in the next release, but I haven't thought yet about what kinds of NPCs we'll find there and what role they'll all play. There is also as ever a question about displaying different types of NPC - all the capital letters are used up with combat NPCs, and some of the lower-case are too, but I've worked out quite a good system for displaying different NPC types. Nevertheless, you've raised an interesting question, and I'm not really sure. I'll need to think first about "what kinds of people would be in the castle?" and go from there...
I don't know why I didn't start to follow your blog earlier, but count me in now. :3
I read them all at 'work' today. 8)
I very much like anything that distinguishes cities (or buildings inside them, like castles) by policies. I think this will be key to making places feel unique and different, especially when you you're using ASCII (even as expertly as you do!).
Just a few quick thoughts:
-I feel 'exhibitions' would be better than art galleries. Art galleries seem a bit...small for a major thing in a city somehow, but throughout history many major cities have had exhibitions. These could be even things like exhibitions of previous wars, with the loot and captured prisoners on show (possibly a 'gloating' policy?)
-In a country, are there going to be capitals and then the head city of a barony (or whatever sub division you are using), followed by lesser cities/towns? If so, a small castle (fort/manor) might be in each of the barony cities, followed by an administrative centre in each town? There could then be some sort of homage to the next highest level, so perhaps portraits of the baron for towns, and of the king for in baronies, or possibly just in terms of having a few rooms dedicated to the main policies of the governance?
In each feudal nation there's a capital city, and towns. Each town currently does not have an assigned leader/mayor/baron/whatever, though I increasingly think something to help identify this leader might be useful. Maybe a larger building, or a special mayor's house, or possibly that person lives in the town hall (above?), though... I guess I probably should add some "Baron" buildings. I'll have to think about what term I want to use, but I think Baron or Mayor would be the most appropriate. Perhaps a building with some walls and a gate would be nice, and would certainly make it very explicit who ruled over that town. I like this idea, unless I think of an issue I'll chuck it in. More variation is (almost) always good, and these could be an interesting addition to towns.
In each feudal nation there's a capital city, and towns. Each town currently does not have an assigned leader/mayor/baron/whatever, though I increasingly think something to help identify this leader might be useful. Maybe a larger building, or a special mayor's house, or possibly that person lives in the town hall (above?), though... I guess I probably should add some "Baron" buildings. I'll have to think about what term I want to use, but I think Baron or Mayor would be the most appropriate. Perhaps a building with some walls and a gate would be nice, and would certainly make it very explicit who ruled over that town. I like this idea, unless I think of an issue I'll chuck it in. More variation is (almost) always good, and these could be an interesting addition to towns.
I'd definitely go for Baron (or Count, or Duke) rather than Mayor, as Mayor sounds a bit of an administrative title rather than a ruling one. I think them having their own building (or sort of mini castle) would be great, especially as then you would immediately know where to go if you needed to talk to the person in charge. This special house/building would also allow minor nobles from other nations/ people of importance (and possibly the player!) to have a sensible place to congregate and stay, which would again help in being able to locate interesting people naturally.
Also, have you thought about national items? Many nations have something physical that is associated with them (The Scottish bagpipes, the Irish clover) and giving each nation something like that might allow you to decorate interiors/show things internally that keep harking back to the nationality.
Similarly, and perhaps more easily, this could be something like a national colour or building material instead. So one nation could prefer wood crafts, which would mean that a large proportion of items/furniture would be crafted out of wood (especially in the richer house holds).
Didn't realize I already read that on your blog until I saw the last sentence. :x
Anyways, looks real cool!
Didn't realize I already read that on your blog until I saw the last sentence. :x
Anyways, looks real cool!
Haha, sorry for the accidental trick! I always cross-post the URRpdates here and a couple of others places; general game design/criticism entries I just leave on the blog, though.
Will it be possible to undermine walls? And would that extend to being able to dig under and collapse buildings as well? Nothing sends a divine message like a chapel being swallowed by the earth itself.
Heh. Don't worry. It gave me another good read. 8)
If yesterday someone had said that I'd be able to get this excited about doors, I'd have called them a fool.
Those doors are made of AWESOME!
Beautiful!
Seeing those nice doors leading into buildings, and so many different buildings in all those screenshots, how are you going to handle interiors with so many diverses architecture ? some kind of random corridors/rooms or hand made interiors ?
I must say that it looks absolutely amazing. And rather inspiring, too, so I think the development won't suffer too much. ;)
Great to hear the move has gone well!
As far as market districts, I think it's a really good design and very insightful planning on your part. One thing I've always worried about with URR is the difficulty in actually finding everything in such a vast world. Regardless of how amazing your ascii is (and it's incredible) there's still only a limited amount you can do compared to full 3d in terms of making things easy to navigate (you can't see things 'on the horizon' for instance).
However, at the risk of market districts looking a bit bare, I think they'd be better without housing (or just with a few as trader households) and perhaps more warehouses to fill the gaps. This would be a bit more realistic as cities do need large warehouse districts as well, and it'd make it a bit more focussed on just trading. Secondly, I find the warehouse designs a lot more striking and obvious than the shop designs. The shops just look like big houses (and could be mistaken as such), whereas the warehouses are quite unique. I really feel it'd be an improvement to design the shops slightly different, or perhaps just swapping them round might be enough?
Good news, everyone: Ultima Ratio Regum's *full-time* development year starts December 5 (ish)! And it will be coded from this building.
I'll try a few different designs for the buildings, probably shaving off the corners. It would be a huge deal now to change the design of the shops due to how the patterns for the "market centers" are made, but I can certainly "reduce" the design by, say, hacking off the corners (though shops do have signs outside, the '?' symbol).I think this would be fine, just something to differentiate them from regular housing.
I agree about enlarging warehouses though, I will enact this, though I think some housing is necessary - there aren't enough shops to merit enough warehouses to fill everything. Equally... I hope the containment of shops "within" the central patterns (there's several dozen) should help with distinguishing, and size. Hmm. Experimentation will begin!I agree that there wouldn't be enough shops to fill all those warehouses themselves, but I was thinking that other buildings/entities around the city might also use those warehouses (sort of wholesale warehouses if you like). Maybe you'd need to rename it a 'trading district' but this could make it a more distinct area, and also allow for future mechanics involving warehouses and shipping; say if you wanted to ship something to another city, or store some items.
A: You're an aristocrat and own a castle
B: You're an hobo living in a terminal
;D
I agree that there wouldn't be enough shops to fill all those warehouses themselves, but I was thinking that other buildings/entities around the city might also use those warehouses (sort of wholesale warehouses if you like). Maybe you'd need to rename it a 'trading district' but this could make it a more distinct area, and also allow for future mechanics involving warehouses and shipping; say if you wanted to ship something to another city, or store some items.
It just seems as though you'll have a lot of housing elsewhere and so there's no need to have another district full of housing when it could be made more distinct.
Just an idea anyway.
Woah.
At first I didn't believe that was ascii art. Crazy awesome.
you could put the shading on another layer(which won't be mirrored, but copied instead).
With some minor modifications it can turn into a battering ram.
The weird shading seems to be because the right part is mirroring the left part(probably). If I'm correct, and if you haven't thought of a workaround(and in case this is easily done), you could put the shading on another layer(which won't be mirrored, but copied instead).
Pretty cool.
you could put the shading on another layer(which won't be mirrored, but copied instead).
If you are going to add extra info to each ascii 'block' (character, color, shadow) you might as well use that info to apply height instead of shading. Then you'd have bump-mapped ascii and could apply dynamic lighting.
and then, Pinky, we could RULE THE WORLD.
Just like in the game of Go, the player who has Sente most of the time is the player who is most likely to win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Gote_and_Sente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Gote_and_Sente)
It's cool, we understand.
Shops cannot spawn in one-religion exclusion places
Lakes cannot end in cities
Prechoose military stuff
Force a gate next to a market if possible
Redo markets
Force a gate by a graveyard, IF they can path to a road
Floodfill from graveyards, ensure you can access them!
Place special combat NPCs, one per fortress no matter what
Cannot exclude desert if desert, water if colonies? (religion!)
When adding extra embassies, lines to other capitals, choose closest
Tundra/ice plants are lighter
Shops in towns are fixed beforehand, markets gen right
Towns are not spaced well enough in world gen
Lava on town doors
CROSS + ROADS AND DOORS (+ road on map, doesn't align with gates)
River markets
River religious
River centres
*ONE DOOR* manor house, save 1
Some weird shit with torches, walls...
No infinite district knowledge, no 'S', no prints
Dead family, not always ornate
Stick can be placed on water... (no sticks)
Some one-road towns are tiny
Graveyards, gates, like road teats
STILL the bloody shift bug when i press space bar
Travel through cities is showing thre X
Roads are slighlty going over city wall corners in farms
Coast, delta ocean is too high!! IT's not going down the HILL!
Lookups for catapults
Flags of nomads double-size
Some issue in military with a large parade ground???
Tried to enter mil district, loading issue (because i'd S before?)
Viewing gate bricks are on your level
Darken ice
Loading ontop of city causes loading failure
Finding entrance door MUST be a gate, and height z level
Sometimes wall blurs bottom/top, sometimes not
Space & Tab whilst in city brings up wrong thing
Those tiny edge fronds of road on city centers
Saved next to city, moved, was able to break through wall?
The blue from city roads doesn't vanish on the left when you travel
Roof of uilding in town only 2 over highest terrain, walked up!
Going south into centre failed to find an entrace
Officer flags
Double doors vary based on which SIDE of the building they are on (vert only)
No door on barracks special?
Snowtrees, plants in tundra/ice for cities... (centers only?)
City, travel, tab, @ and X
Right side of stable door on bottom,no doorpicture (hard to recreate...)
Archery targets (should be like trees)
Catapults (should be like trees)
A corner wall when otuside a city and corners should be city tower (failed)
Cannot move into docks/castles *on foot*
Move into district via travel, then diag, then enter, places you corner
Barley colour
Rye colour/lookup don't really match
HUNTER GATHERER SHRINES
Graveyard, remove some ice near the core, add snow within walls + frozen soil?
Upper class gates
Moving diagonally into non-city tile will spawn you on wall edge
Plants are "on top" of trees on farms, odd
If a graveyard, limit up/down hills around graveyard on map grid
WE ARE HISTORY (ignore for now?)
Shrine issue
Print_Districts, "you are currently in" vs "this is a"; foreigner detail
Serious relig issue .png
Roads in religious districts reset to the proper height going through walls
Embassy gate
Military gate
Archery lookup
All signs for courts/galleries/etc
Correct door wood
Single water edge, city, save 9
Pgup On player lookuyp 1/4 goes to blank when 'l' at player
Lookup message does not repeat
Wheat doesn't show
Block off docks
This is not a courtroom, it only PRETENDS
how much is playable in this version?
released in under a fortnight,
Quotereleased in under a fortnight,
Wheee!
Take your time. Other issues are more important, the audience can wait and it's a fine way to build up anticipation.
Anyway, it's looking great as always.
Thank you sir! This is excellent.
Well that certainly does make sense. I shall ponder it, though I don't think it will make it into 0.6 at this point regardless. In the mean time I've thought of several city variations to throw into the mix - many slums, many gardens (all districts have some gardens areas, inc. military), all lower-class (poor city, no middle-class districts, and maybe make even the upper-class district less impressive), all middle (i.e. wealthy city, no lowers), three or four military districts (pick one civ at random, sometimes, from all imperial civs, say?), many markets (so maybe 2/3), a moat around the entire city as well as just around the castle, and a large number of internal graveyards instead of an external one. That's the six so far, each could only gen once if at all in each world gen. Trying to think of some others too. And, also, there's a set of sixteen unique buildings that'll spawn in cities too, only one city ever, which are all plot related, but they'll be coming later, and not all of them will spawn each time you play (maybe 50% on average?). So with the above, I could add a "nickname" for some cities - the many slums might be "City of the Downtrodden", many military markets "City of Ten Thousand Swords", many markets "City of the Flowing Gold", etc (have the nicknames generated, obviously, but with a particular algorithm for each unique city aspect)
As you say, it's about ensuring constant variety, and that means no more than a few of these should crop up every game - as ever, weighting things unevenly leads to a far better outcome than weighting everything equally, so that when you come across something rare it actually registers as being rare.
Whilst I definitely agree with that, I think as far as cities go, each one needs to be unique in as many ways as possible and as significantly as possible. Obviously, a lot of this will be down to NPCs and the cultures/religions that inhabit these cities, but I can't help but think that each city should be unique in some way.
An idea I had last night was to allow some cities (and this would only be a number) to be based around a 'theme'.
So for instance you could have the 'city of snakes' which may have winding streets, statues of snakes and a lot of other snake-themed motifs. Similarly, you could have the 'city of silver', which would be a great producer of silver goods, have many silver statues and so on.
These would have to have a reason for it, like the 'city of silver' being built on great silver mines, or a city of snakes being due to the great assassins guild which was founded there, otherwise it'd become a bit strange. However, these sort of things wouldn't need to be overbearing (and would probably do well for being treated tactfully) but would allow for a really unique city and history without the need for massive city-design changes.
The book you suggested was Cryptonomicon!! And so far I very much enjoy it.
Thank you very much for the awesome release! Checking it out now
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!
So, so good. Literally fantastic - I've been too glued to it to post anything.
The cities are incredible, and extremely fun to walk around. It really feels like a fully fleshed out world now, and I can't even imagine what it'll be like with interiors and NPCs
Whilst I hate to critique it after such a short time, I've a few ideas/things to report:
Haha, thank you, this is excellent. Now, to your very good critiques:
-The big issue for me was that there are a lot of streets/roads that just lead into walls. I feel like each road should lead to somewhere, as it's really confusing/annoying trying to find your way out of the district by following roads and constantly coming to a dead end - it also breaks immersion, as that wouldn't really happen in real life. Sorry to come down so hard on that, but it's been a big issue.
Which districts? I assume you mean middle-class housing primarily? I had this pointed out to me by one of my super-secret playtesters (a cult which may be recruiting, if you're interested); they are definitely the trickiest districts to meaningfully navigate at this time, by a *big* margin (in my opinion). No other districts should really dump you into dead-ends, but MC districts can be quite misleading. I have several ideas for solving this which I've already put on the to-do list for 0.7! I guess they might make it onto a 0.6.1 release if people report some serious bugs that need fixing before then and I'll add in a few improvements into the mix, but if not, it'll be 0.7.
-Whilst wandering around, I really got the feeling that the players field of vision should be bigger. It's fine in the wilderness, but in a city it feels like you need a bit more situational awareness.
100% agree, it's way too small. Going to improve that once I improve the rendering function and it isn't computer-destroying to see more. Probably 0.7 also.
-I think it'd be great if the player could press escape to get out of any 'screen' (like the travel screen) and only go to the menu once back on the main wandering around screen. The guy who did sub-commander did a bit of a poll on this and it was overwhelmingly favoured by players.
Hmm, can you be slightly more specific about the screens? Do you mean returning to the main menu for the entire game? If you press Esc on the travel screen it should give you the Main Menu Y/N prompt? Perhaps this is just a question of "screen terminology" and I'm not sure which screens you mean!
-Small issue, you can't 'l'ook behind you/outside your field of vision - whilst this makes logical sense, it's a pain having to line your vision up sometimes.
I get that, but the facing-direction thing is going to be quite important once combat starts going, so I'm disinclined to do anything about the facing-vision per se, BUT I could do something like - if you try to look at something behind you which you could see if you turned around, pressing Enter to look also turns you around? That would be instead of doing nothing and having you leave 'l'ook, turn, and then look again.
-As the player starts in their home city, it's sort of strange that it's unexplored. I'd suggest for it to be all 'explored' or at least the district that you start in. This would also help new players orient themselves better.
Agreed, in 0.7 onwards all districts in your home city will start 100% autoexplored - it was on the list, but I just didn't have the time :(.
-letters with umlauts/accents seem to be in a smaller font - this looks a bit strange in my opinion.
Ah, really? I thought I'd fixed all those. I'll check the font files again.
Sorry to come up with criticisms so early, I just felt that as you're probably wanting to move on to the next version it'd be best to flag these up soon.
*Not at all*, best to figure out what needs changing early before I commit to 0.7 in any kind of meaningful fashion. I'll be starting development in the next week or two on 0.7, though probably not in any serious way until close to New Year, other stuff demands my attention for a week or two (I have a thesis submission deadline now, finally, for January, and I have a bunch of conference abstracts and other stuff to send off). I'm so glad you like it though! I tried a little "playthrough" this morning with all the wizard mode stuff disabled and just using the .zip file on the site, and trying to put myself in the mind of someone who isn't me and doesn't know all the ins-and-outs, and I feel it's the first release I am happy to stand on its own - even if it's a world of "ghost towns" - without feeling the need to keep saying "just wait until the NEXT release!!!" and stressing all the cool stuff that's coming. Purely as a world to explore, whilst I 100% agree with your dead-end road issue (I hope it is only MC districts, right?) I'm super-happy with how it plays as just a world simulator, right now.
Seriously, very amazing though - I've spent hours just wandering around!
It's mainly Middle-class housing districts that are the big problem. As there isn't much to do in the districts other than explore it's not a big problem, but it does mean trying to get out of the district quite a problem.
Which districts? I assume you mean middle-class housing primarily? I had this pointed out to me by one of my super-secret playtesters (a cult which may be recruiting, if you're interested); they are definitely the trickiest districts to meaningfully navigate at this time, by a *big* margin (in my opinion). No other districts should really dump you into dead-ends, but MC districts can be quite misleading. I have several ideas for solving this which I've already put on the to-do list for 0.7! I guess they might make it onto a 0.6.1 release if people report some serious bugs that need fixing before then and I'll add in a few improvements into the mix, but if not, it'll be 0.7.
-Whilst wandering around, I really got the feeling that the players field of vision should be bigger. It's fine in the wilderness, but in a city it feels like you need a bit more situational awareness.Great to hear!
100% agree, it's way too small. Going to improve that once I improve the rendering function and it isn't computer-destroying to see more. Probably 0.7 also.
-I think it'd be great if the player could press escape to get out of any 'screen' (like the travel screen) and only go to the menu once back on the main wandering around screen. The guy who did sub-commander did a bit of a poll on this and it was overwhelmingly favoured by players.With this, I meant that you wouldn't get the main menu prompt by pressing escape unless you were at the 'main screen' (as in, the one where you wander around/play the game). If you were at any other screen - like the Encyclopaedia or travel screen - pressing escape would just exit you back to the main (wandering around/playing) screen. I feel this is the way that most modern games play these days, and the way that people are most comfortable with.
Hmm, can you be slightly more specific about the screens? Do you mean returning to the main menu for the entire game? If you press Esc on the travel screen it should give you the Main Menu Y/N prompt? Perhaps this is just a question of "screen terminology" and I'm not sure which screens you mean!
-Small issue, you can't 'l'ook behind you/outside your field of vision - whilst this makes logical sense, it's a pain having to line your vision up sometimes.That would be a good solution. At the moment, I can't see any issues with it and I don't think it'd need a prompt or anything.
I get that, but the facing-direction thing is going to be quite important once combat starts going, so I'm disinclined to do anything about the facing-vision per se, BUT I could do something like - if you try to look at something behind you which you could see if you turned around, pressing Enter to look also turns you around? That would be instead of doing nothing and having you leave 'l'ook, turn, and then look again.
Signposts... interesting. Right now the gates can spawn at the top/left, middle, or bottom/right of each wall. Those are the only three locations. If there is a river going through the district, then the gate will always be at the top/left or bottom/right of an edge with that river, and never in the middle (as that's where the river will be). From my own testing, I felt that three-part gate option was sufficiently unambiguous, but - I could move it so that you *always* have gates in the middle of the walls, except in gates of rivers? I hope this problem is MC districts mainly, as most other districts have much clearer roads towards the gates, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Forcing gates into the middle would ever-so-slightly reduce variety, but if you think it would *significantly* improve the readability of districts, then I'd 100% consider it!I think as far as gates go, having them in the middle would be a good idea. Gate position isn't something I feel would significantly hurt variety and the gain in ease of navigation would be sizeable. It's such an issue because of how big the districts are - I had no idea how big they'd be until I walked around them around!!
Main menu prompt, ah, I see. So you'd prefer if you press Space to look around the world map, you can only leave that screen by pressing space again, and Esc brings up the Main Menu Y/N? I... am not sure I agree. I think there's a certain logic in pressing Esc to return to the "core" screen, and then Esc gives you the Y/N, especially since you're never more than one or two Escs away from it. On the other hand, I reflexively recognize that maybe I'm just saying that because I coded the damned thing and I've become too used to it! I'll certainly keep it in mind as an option.Something strange seems to have happened! How it is now (with esc leaving the current screen until the core) is EXACTLY how I wanted it, but for some reason it wasn't doing that earlier. I really don't know what to say, as I was definitely just showing a menu prompt no matter what screen I was on (i tested it a few times!). I dread to say it was a bug (and can't see why it would be), but maybe keep an eye out!
Just a quick note; you may wish to update the OP and the title of the thread as it still stats 0.5 as being released
I think as far as gates go, having them in the middle would be a good idea. Gate position isn't something I feel would significantly hurt variety and the gain in ease of navigation would be sizeable. It's such an issue because of how big the districts are - I had no idea how big they'd be until I walked around them around!!
Something strange seems to have happened! How it is now (with esc leaving the current screen until the core) is EXACTLY how I wanted it, but for some reason it wasn't doing that earlier. I really don't know what to say, as I was definitely just showing a menu prompt no matter what screen I was on (i tested it a few times!). I dread to say it was a bug (and can't see why it would be), but maybe keep an eye out!
Heh, ok, I'll definitely see how things work out with middle-gates as the default.It'll be good to see how they turn out - if not, I believe another measure - like signposts or even a more 'interface' based addition (something on the minimap/arrows) - would help. It's just that the districts are big, and while I can enjoy wandering around them aimlessly now - I don't know how I'd feel if I actually had a mission to carry out.
How confusing! There is a minor bug in there somewhere involving the shift key very, very, very rarely becoming "stuck" in the game (I think it has something to do with changing focus to another window whilst holding shift, or pressing shift, or moving focus onto the URR window when you press shift, or something) but that's the only thing even remotely like what you've just described (i.e. a key issue) and that's a totally different problem. Hmm. Anyway, let me know if any more weirdness occurs...Really confused by it - I've tried to replicate it and can't, but it definitely wasn't doing this behaviour before. I had a game open whilst I was writing both posts and it brought up the menu prompt no matter where I pressed Esc. I really can't imagine what it is - it seems strange for it to be a bug, but I can't imagine a computer error causing that. I'll keep watching whilst I keep playing, but my apologies for not testing it more fully before mentioning.
This game seems awesome ptw
I've lost this project from my field of view for a while, and it's extremely awesome to see it being developed with such rate.
To be honest, it looked like an awesome concept, but I did not really expect you to actually do it until such point and to go even further.
It looked like such a massive endavour, not a lot of people can deal with it.
Also, that's something that I wanted to say a long time ago: this is the ONLY roguelike for me which I cannot imagine with a tileset. Your usage of symbols is such amazing, I think you may be a very popular graphics designer in dusguise.
Thanks for the release. I'll be sure to try it out soon.
Today just makes me realize I should add some more procedurally-generated festivals to religious beliefs...
whyyyyToday just makes me realize I should add some more procedurally-generated festivals to religious beliefs...
I'm sure Yule get around to it... ;)
I'm sure Yule get around to it... ;)
I... did not expect tables :D
Any plans for secrets within furnitures? Victorian furnitures came to my mind almost immediately.
I think you mean combusting slinky. It doesn't quite explode.
Reduced file size sounds nice, though with (awesome) roguelike graphic assets size isn't exactly a huge concern. :P
An 80% loading/saving boost, however, sounds fantastic.
I'm sure any issue that pops up won't be nearly as catastrophic as your computer catching fire.
... If it does, though, make sure you get a video of it.
I do hope there is the possibility of generating an "Armok" deity in game...
For those of you in the UK (and US? Maybe?) the February issue of PC Gamer has a two-page spread on ProcJam, where URR is described as a 'giga-roguelike'. I am very, very comfortable with this definition.
Haven't kept up to date with URR for a while. It scares me now :P
I love the definition :D
You probably have 'tau' in mind, if we are thinking about the same symbol. ;)
My god, this looks like the kind of game that I'd become addicted to. What is its current state? Is it playable? Can I begin to wreck the final semester of my law degree?
Keep up the good work! Is there a rough estimate on when the 'gameplay' will be added? If you say May, I may have to kill you, as that'll be when my finals are...
That sounds awesome to me, I'll have graduated by then and be *cough* working *cough*, so my weekends will be my own to get lost in this!
I shall totally keep a keen eye on this one, awesome work so far!
Bone bows are a thing :)
That, too! :o Though is it odd that I could totally imagine the being as described?
I figured that was a thing that you had in mind when posting this effect, but really, this is only a Janus^2 (which an added touch of serpentine tongue), isn't it? ;) Not at all that strange. At least, not on B12 forum...
That, too! :o Though is it odd that I could totally imagine the being as described?Yeah I totally just pictured it too. Ugh. I actually got goose bumps from the creepiness.
This game looks amazing! Posting to watch.
Yeah I totally just pictured it too. Ugh. I actually got goose bumps from the creepiness.
Now I'm curious... Are we going to be able to wipe out religions, or at least try and suppress them? Because I want to wipe these eyeball thieving tree-huggers from the face of the Earth.
This is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!
Some beautiful work there, dude.
Sorry about the offtopic (don't use reddit) but Lincoln is about 20 miles from my hometown. Diary notwithstanding (family things on some of those dates) , I would love to attend.
Good luck in organising it nevertheless.
As a Trekkie, the phrase, "the birth of a real-life Holodeck" makes me absurdly excited.
What would you like players to gain by the end of the game? You've got cryptography, detailed renaissance style history, i feel we could easily come away with something useful if you're so inclined.That's actually a really good idea - with a world this detailed, you could actually put in stuff for people to learn. EDUCATIONAL GAMING WHICH IS FUN!? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!
What would you like players to gain by the end of the game? You've got cryptography, detailed renaissance style history, i feel we could easily come away with something useful if you're so inclined.
Also, thought you'd like this: it will be a series discussing the role of academia in games amongst other things. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/13/electric-dreams-part-1-the-lost-future-of-ai/#more-270717
That's actually a really good idea - with a world this detailed, you could actually put in stuff for people to learn. EDUCATIONAL GAMING WHICH IS FUN!? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!
I'm not thinking so much of historical things (like how olde style coins were minted), but rather things like algebra which are still very useful today. Whilst I know you're not doing this for profit, doing something which could actually be useful for schools/colleges would be an incredible service. I have a friend who works with disabled kids (mostly very autistic) and he says that minecraft has literally revolutionised teaching with them - they can actually learn stuff which before they would never have had the patience or inclination to do.
URR could be the next step, gaming with a strong mathematical, scientific and literary focus - sort of like college level educational gaming.
Great! *high 5's all round and a fist-bump for retropunch!*
Cathedrals look amazing!! I can't wait to wander round them!!
RE: educational games.
I definitely agree that games which set out from the start to be educational tend to not be great fun - or the fun is very secondary. I was definitely thinking more along the lines of 'Games which happen to teach' but I feel that URR, being a very detailed simulated environment, would allow for the 'learning of skills' to fit in without being heavy handed.
Something like cryptography or algebra could be worked in through puzzles, and the game could provide enough information (with ingame books/NPCs!) for you to learn how to do it even if you don't know anything about them.
These could be mostly optional (perhaps to unlock ziggurats or vaults), but would allow players to learn a new skill through gaming, which I think would be a very exciting thing to bring to the gaming world. Other things could be taught through simple testing - for instance, to get to the top of the merchants guild, you might be tested on your knowledge of economics.
The main reason I'm for this though, is that games tend to hand things to you based on twitch based skill, in game stats or RNG. Few games - if any - reward you having actual skills and knowledge. I feel that it would add a feeling of achievement that finding a 'magic ring of ice blast' would never be able to match. This would be doubled if you had actually learnt something that was useful outside the game.
I definitely agree that games which set out from the start to be educational tend to not be great fun - or the fun is very secondary.
Critical thinking when fostered in a game is good all around anyhow.
So long as you are creating a cohesive world with patterns of logic.
This is so damn pretty, and I normally detest ASCII games.
I was once more toying last night with the idea of totally removing combat from URR's plan
Cathedrals:
[...]
but simply because there aren’t enough specific words for “a larger than normal religious building” to allow every religion to have its own! Whilst there may be dozens of lesser religious buildings around towns, cities, monasteries, etc, there will only be one cathedral, always positioned (as those who have explored 0.6 may have seen) in the city center of that religion’s home nation.
If the building is really unique , why not give it an unique name (randomly generated with various keywords, a bit like dwarven fortress are named), so instead of calling all those buildings named the Cathedral, you could have it named the Altar of Splendor , the Celestial Spark, the Eternal Office , the Cradle of Titans ... or whatever random generation may create as an unique name.That's a great idea! Whilst I agree that it's difficult to think up loads of different names for religious buildings, the 'main' building/cathedral could be called something that would let the player know it was the main building.
About removal of combat, if this happens there will be a need for something else that replace it so something happens at gameplay time for the player to keep people willing to go on with exploring their generated world.
The crypts look incredible! Will some be trap filled?
Maaaaaybe. Honestly, for now, actually no, but ziggurats have also been removed, and I need to seriously think about the interaction between different maps/areas, NPCs, traps, and the player, before I were to add any back in!
They almost look too exciting to just have dead people in them. I love the idea about torches and lighting, it'll allow you to find interesting things (which I imagine there would mostly be torches around) more quickly, as well as add all sorts of tension when combat is in.
Agreed! I'm also putting in the background code I can use in 0.8 for spawning some rare NPCs in graveyards; for instance one might find a hermit hiding in a graveyard crypt, or possibly a religious archivist in a cathedral crypt, and a bunch of other rare possibilities...
One thing that came to mind when you mentioned the 'Red Senate', was if colours are closely connected to civilizations. I know there are civilization colour schemes, but I didn't know if they were connected to wording as well? It might make it interesting to have red as the Civ colour, and then names, places, organizations going off that (The Red Senate, The Maroon Hold, The Burgundy Inn and so on).
Colours are sort of associated. Flag colours affect the colours of snazzy floor tiling (on the floor of the Parliament buildings, not on the floors of the crypts), and will also affect a few other things. For instance, when we get onto book generation I'm going to have the most expensive/valuable of books have proc-genned leading letters (like http://world4.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/letter.jpg ) and the colours on those letters will be dependent on the civilization that spawned them! There's also a few other ways in which colours "matter", but actually places and things aren't, currently, linked into that system. It would take... a decent amount of reworking to add that at this point, so I'm not sure if that'll happen...
All this amazing work and I'm still agonising over the dashes and colons on the floor! I noticed that the barracks didn't have any dashes, and I think it looks clearer, although the colons do still look like something solid in my mind. I decided to do a mockup in paint of a part of the crypt without dashes or colons, as I don't know how difficult it would be for you to just rip them out:
(http://s7.postimg.org/l40wuayaj/dots.png)
THEY'RE GONE, THE DASHES ARE GONE
I do think it looks cleaner, although with a better distribution of fullstops and commas it would look a lot better. I'm sure this is just due to playing many years of RLs with just fullstops as ground, but I think in a game so tightly packed with stuff it needs to be as clear as humanly possible.
THE DASHES ARE NO MORE
Btw, are you coming to the IRDC? You really should if you can!
Horray!!! I'm very excited to see the areas without dashes!!
I can well imagine that traps might conflict with NPC areas (you don't want them all dying to traps) but perhaps keeping all traps behind locked doors would be good. Are ziggurats removed completely? Will they be coming back?
I'm not sure if I'll be able to make IRDC, I'm currently out of the country and may not be back in time - I'd love to go if I could. I'm actually thinking up a presentation on crime in games for some sort of game dev conference sometime - I'll let you know nearer the time!
Looks great. Will definitely look at it when it's released.
Zigs... are probably gone for good. I just can't see a way to integrate them with the density of civilizations now produced, and the gameplay around that kind of qualitative density/detail which interests me so much. Hopefully I'll find a way to reuse the nice block graphics though! This removal isn't certain, but is highly likely.
Noooooo!!
now that you mention crypts and that stuff, will heretics and cults get interactions with them?...
those altars looks so good its a shame you cant summon stuff from them :P
Have you got much feedback between the religions? Actually, is there much borrowing or reaction by one proc gen creation to another point blank?
Looks amazing.
this... is... so.... pretty and awesome and ... ahhhhh i love it already.
URR, I am planning to create a procedurally generated novel. I know this sounds stupid, but in High School, I remember reading a sci-fi story about a computer that ghostwritten novels. I thought it was cool. So that is what I want to do. Also, I may not have time to write a novel manually, so automating the process would be really neat.
I need to get this program done by the end of October so that it can be used for NaNo. (NaNo wants a blank manuscript in November 1st but you can do prep work before that time.)
I already downloaded a computer program that can create a functioning story outline for me, and already got some ideas for how to get it working. However, I need to know what I have to worry about when doing procedural generation. And since you are in the process of securing a PhD, you may be the best person to give me some pointers.
Right now, I think that procedural generation can help in arranging content but not actually creating new content unless you create a complex simulation (think Crusader Kings 2). So this means I have to create all the characters, write out different ways of interaction, create all the quotes, etc. Is there any way to reduce the workload, considering that I may write way too much content that may not actually appear in the final novel?
Any help would be greatly appericated.
I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats. :(it could be a future adition once all the cultural/historic stuff is finished
Hope this rambling helps!It did, thanks. I will be sure to come up with tests to filter out gibberish, although I will wait until I create a generator that does produce gibberish. :P I will also try to reduce the amount of hand-crafted "creation" as possible, though I am less confident it would be possible (you did have to handcraft parts of that mansion, after all).
Oh man, URR. I love me some procedural generation! Definitely downloading 0.7 when it comes out. I'm also really interested in how you intend to implement Dark Souls-esque combat mechanics. I mean, Jesus, are you actively trying to make a game that caters to my every desire?
Have you given some thought as to how cultures mix and mutate? It's probably completely unfeasible to design such a complex system, but it'd be amazing if you could get hybrid faiths emerging like Manicheanism, dynamic heresies emerging and splitting of into their own faiths, or just loan words being introduced to languages. Heck, you could use this to make cultures change to the point that visiting old buildings or ruins actually has an archaeological feel to it (if only in my fantasies).
Keep up the good work!
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I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats. :(it could be a future adition once all the cultural/historic stuff is finished
It did, thanks. I will be sure to come up with tests to filter out gibberish, although I will wait until I create a generator that does produce gibberish. :P I will also try to reduce the amount of hand-crafted "creation" as possible, though I am less confident it would be possible (you did have to handcraft parts of that mansion, after all).
I admit taking a look at Booker and his reductionist ilk, but surpisingly, they are actually too vague! You still need to create characters, determine the setting, and figure out how to flow from one phase to another. Luckily, as I mentioned before, I already found a story outline generator that is specific enough for my tastes. This generator claims to have over 32,000 possibilities, so you could probably use it for a while without getting bored sick (you can only handle so many variations of the "Hero's Journey"). The name of the program is "Dramatica", by the way, if you are interested. It has a free demo which can allow you to try the program out and create your outline! You just cannot save, export, or print it out.
Edit: Even "Dramatica" has limitations (in terms of how to structure "scenes" in a novel), so I have to also use Dwight Swain’s ideas about Motiviation-Reaction Units and Scenes/Sequels (I am using this summary of Dwight Swain’s ideas (http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/writing-the-perfect-scene/)). Anyway, if I actually get some useful progress with this generator, I will try to give an update somehow.
I remember when this was still a roguelike pertaining to large-scale combats. :(
Well, I appreciate you sticking around nevertheless :).
I can't disagree enough, this looks fantastic and seems to be shaping up to be a welcome break from combat heavy roguelikes.
I'm tired of monster-slaying dungeon-crawling kind of roguelikes with no plot, and I love the originality of your work and ideas. Whatever road you may take, I'm still 100% interested :)
I want to disagree simply to be a dissenting voice
This is rubbish and I protest...I feel lied to and demand you fix it
(Do I sound like I am doing it right? :P )
While I'm not interested in large scale combat (I can't imagine how that would work well in an RL really), I do think combat needs to be a critical part and whilst I would still love the project, I'd definitely be less enthusiastic without combat.
Combat is wrong actually - Danger is more apt. I think any game like this needs danger - you need to feel like the world that you've read so much into and become such a part of could be snatched away from you at any minute to make you really immersed and driven - even if it's relatively (or extremely) rare compared to other RLs.
Combat also gives the player a chance to grow themselves, either through equipment or skills to become something different than everyone else around them. I think this is critical to being a person in the game rather than a myst-like disembodied figure.
Those dwelling pics are amazing!
So. Much. Want.
Just to confirm, are NPCs next release?!!?
YYYYAAAAYYYY
Somebody hold me.
It's official: I will be releasing URR 0.7, the last worldbuilding release with uncountable tens of thousands of procedurally-generated buildings from crypts to cathedrals and townhouses to mansions, on Saturday 18th!
Ancient Velvet Rope.
Sorry I just smiled when I saw that.
I am having a hard time even finding if stair railing existed in this time period though. Though I'd have a hard time believing such a handy device only existed in the renaissance onward.
Ok actually it is bugging me because that Velvet rope is hitting my OCD... what is it?
Mmmm! Me likes! *wipes drool from his chin.* Keep on keepin on!
a nomadic citadel in the fortress of Khan’s Rest
a nomadic citadel in the fortress of Khan’s Rest
I had some really awesome snark for this, but then I read the 2015/03/08 blog post and all I can say is that this stuff looks well designed and amazing.
Looking forward to exploring it.
I never did get around to playing this. I probably should.
958 million variations
958 million variations
This pleases me.
Congratulations!
Congratulations!!!!!! DR.MARK!!!! DR.MARK!!!!
I was wondering if this makes you one of the only Drs to also be developing a roguelike, but then I checked Biskup and apparently he's got a PhD as well.
Hm, maybe it's a prereq for developing an epic roguelike? :P
the pfffffft things are called "vuvuzelas" (vuvuzela is the singular)....
I call them 'Bloody annoying'
Like this game is 'Bloody magnificent'
the pfffffft things are called "vuvuzelas" (vuvuzela is the singular)....
#3: Since at character generation i notices you generate solar systems instead of one planet so is there a way to - using magic to teleport to other planets and magically sustain yourself?
#4: Question #3 said about magic and interstellar planet using magic so do you plan to introduce magic? (such as divine magic coming from the gods or occult magic used by the cults and even arcane magic illegeal in some places because it is a heresy according to religions they will be procedurally generated not just the same each world)? This question is VERY IMPORTMANT! thankyou!
the pfffffft things are called "vuvuzelas" (vuvuzela is the singular)....
I wouldn't describe a vuvuzela as making a 'pfffft' sound.
Anyway, posting to watch. This is bloody impressive.
I can say THAT'S A BLOODY GREAT GAME. (espescially when it is set in renissance times) SO i have some importmant questionz of importmance
#1: Is there a possibility to rise (or fall) in social classes to be a King/Queen or a Crime Lord?
#2: Does skills shall be intriduced? (For example: combat skills: gunnery archery swordplay and weapon skills. stealth skills: lockpicking sleight of hand legerdemain sneak & hide. common skills : first aid medical gunsmithing blacksmithing commanderring leadership persuasion )
#3: Since at character generation i notices you generate solar systems instead of one planet so is there a way to - using magic to teleport to other planets and magically sustain yourself?
#4: Question #3 said about magic and interstellar planet using magic so do you plan to introduce magic? (such as divine magic coming from the gods or occult magic used by the cults and even arcane magic illegeal in some places because it is a heresy according to religions they will be procedurally generated not just the same each world)? This question is VERY IMPORTMANT! thankyou!
..but still no magic. Sorry!Dang.
... but still no magic. Sorry!And-i-hoped-magic-would-exist-but-no. HOW SAD :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( (But-i-still-hope-this-changes-soon-or-at-the-far-future)
Dang.
Quote... but still no magic. Sorry!And-i-hoped-magic-would-exist-but-no. HOW SAD :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( (But-i-still-hope-this-changes-soon-or-at-the-far-future)
Still-your-game-is-great.
Haha, you could totally algorithmically generate the full text of every one of the 410 page books. It might be tricksey if you wanted to be able to turn to a random page in a book without generating the whole thing... but even now I'm thinking of ways you could solve that. This would be a cool little project...
As far as skills go, I much, much prefer the method of skills increasing with use rather than any other method of point allocation. I think it's necessary to have clear skill progress and not to obfuscate the advancement process, but point allocation seems to take away from any sense of immersion. When I was working on CyberRogue (which I still am slowly!) I tried quite a number of systems and this seemed to work best, especially with a mix of combat and non-combat skills.
I think the trick with this is to make skills overlap quite significantly, so you don't end up with the 'training shields by letting a rat bite you 1000 times' thing. For instance, training any weapon could increase your skill mostly in that weapon, but also improve skills in all others of a similar type, as well as athletics and strength. Similarly, training lockpicking could also train (to a much lesser extent) other skills which require precision such as surgery and trap making. With enough overlap, character progression should become quite natural, but still allow the player to specialise.
Will gambling be in?
Well. There may be mods that may ACTUALLY add magic. but i am not into mods now. (almost all games can be modded.)
Anyways. Will be there multi-tile animals? (dragons in DF were as big as an tower and as long as a rather long chunk of stone walls and yet they are in one tile) And will be there a possibility to found your own cities & make a new kindgom? Select your religion, city types and city pattern...
This all makes a lot of sense to me: to be honest, though, there's a good chance I'll end up with an extremely minimalist skill system, or possibly even no skill system at all (!) having everything for combat etc dependent on base stats and the weapons/armour you're actually wielding, and have most other important skills reside in the *player* (i.e. deduction) rather than in the player *character*.
I was wanting to generate each book from a seed, but also to ensure that the generated books never overlap. I'm not sure where to start with that one, ensuring uniqueness. Most algorithms that generate keys and hashes rely on an extremely low probability of overlap, but the purpose of this is the absurd thought experiment, one would want to actually ensure that each book was unique and not just pseudo-unique.
But I do very shortly intend to get the game generating booksDr. Mark, are you expecting them to generate good books? I looked up NaNoGenMo (National Novel Generator Month*), and actually, they ended up succeeding in producing loads of novel generators on out there, all of them "open source" and available on GitHub.
Step 1: Generate a book. Print it out to the public.
Step 2: Save that book in a file (call it "list of generated books").
Step 3: Generate a second book.
Step 4: Query the list of generated books to see if your second book has exactly the same text as the first book. If it does, then simply re-generate your book and then query your list again.
Step 5: If your newly generated book does not match any books on your list, then it's unique. Congrats! Save that book in your "list of generated books".
Step 6: Repeat steps 3 to 5 until your computer runs out of memory.
Also, somebody did end up creating a Library of Babel book generator (https://github.com/ikarth/nonogen/blob/master/src/nonogen/borges/babel.clj), so you could use that code as inspiration.
Also, somebody did end up creating a Library of Babel book generator (https://github.com/ikarth/nonogen/blob/master/src/nonogen/borges/babel.clj), so you could use that code as inspiration.
every possible way of writing a book would be a member of a set, "n" would be the length of the set, n! should be equal to the number of ways that they /dont/ overlap, and n^n are number of ways they /do/ overlap? so (n!):(n^n) are the odds of generating a duplicate book?
I really like the idea of the players own skills being important, and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited for URR. However, I would caution against not having a skill system or, what I feel is worse, having it just dependant on base stats that leave the player possibly stuck with a character config they don't like for a whole play-through.
No-magic rougelikes are more interesting. but UnReal World has rituals. URR might too have, One can learn ancient tribal rituals if one either sees someone doing it or finds a book eplaining it or he/she is simply taught it. I would be very happy that URR includes rituals. But if no rituals you shall add in URR: Do not worry. I will not be dissapointed even a slightlest bit.
Dr. Mark, are you expecting them to generate good books? I looked up NaNoGenMo (National Novel Generator Month*), and actually, they ended up succeeding in producing loads of novel generators on out there, all of them "open source" and available on GitHub.
And, all of them equally terrible in their own special ways. The ones that make the most sense are the ones that have "templates", but they are the also the ones that require the most work to do. Other ways to generate a novel would be to scrape content from websites, write short stories and stick them so close to each other so that readers are tricked into thinking these short stories are somehow related, replace words in existing novels, use recursive patterns, and create a simulation of different characters interacting with each other and printing out the results (the CK2 approach). And there are probably more ways to write a novel out there but I don't want to get distracted looking at all these generators when I'm still trying to get my own "novel generator" functional.
Put it frankly, while it may still be possible to generate a full-fledged novel that people would want to read, it'll take a lot of effort, and you still have an actual game to ship as well! I'd recommend demoting your goal down to just generating short stories, or...quite possibly, creating a generator that produces a short story, and treat that short story as a synopsis for the novel in question, so that people can imagine the novel without you needing to come up with said novel. Think of how Tarn Adams handled poetry in Dwarf Fortress.
This definitely transfers to books, so I'm sure the Dr. will be able to turn out some pretty great stuff!
My problem is that keeping things item based and non-magical runs the risk of items becoming unrealistic within the game world. If the game keeps to actual period weapons, the enhancement of the 'next level up' of weapons/armours would have to be a huge leap - a steel sword becomes MUCH better than an iron sword, even though they are essentially the same thing.I really like the idea of the players own skills being important, and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited for URR. However, I would caution against not having a skill system or, what I feel is worse, having it just dependant on base stats that leave the player possibly stuck with a character config they don't like for a whole play-through.
Hmmmm, interesting thoughts. Re: your third paragraph, I don't agree issues are quite that "inevitable" - "Sure, they might be able to find/buy more stuff to be of more use in a number of situations, but as soon as you find the 'best' armour/weapon in the game world, you automatically become the best fighter you can be. " - but why can I not extend that to be the entirety of development? Or, at least, say 50% of character development; 50% base stats, 50% items, so something very minimalist (one could reasonably argue that the Souls games do something along those lines, with few skills, no skill trees, etc). I think I could make that work: have enough variation/resolution in the best/worst items, make anything above the basics extremely rare and extremely hard to acquire, and I still think that could actually work really well! I'd actively like to experiment putting the sense of player development into primarily items, and knowledge, rather than stats (and I could go a bit extreme and make *everything* item/learning based... which I might) - I know it's crazy! But at the top of my design document is a sentence to the effect of "Don't do what everyone else has gone", and putting all player progression into items and knowledge would certainly be different. And I think it would be good, and fresh, and WOULD yield progression-feeling!
This is *much* easier. I've got a chatbot for CyberRogue which seems a lot more realistic (in my opinion) than internet chatbots, as you're talking about stuff in universe. It's situated in a 'physical' space, which makes it much more lifelike. Granted, it's not going to pass the Turing test, but as long as you stay in-universe, it can function well. It grabs bits of the news feed, it has preferences from the consumables available and knows a number of random people in the world that you also know. This definitely transfers to books, so I'm sure the Dr. will be able to turn out some pretty great stuff!
This is *much* easier. I've got a chatbot for CyberRogue which seems a lot more realistic (in my opinion) than internet chatbots, as you're talking about stuff in universe. It's situated in a 'physical' space, which makes it much more lifelike. Granted, it's not going to pass the Turing test, but as long as you stay in-universe, it can function well. It grabs bits of the news feed, it has preferences from the consumables available and knows a number of random people in the world that you also know. This definitely transfers to books, so I'm sure the Dr. will be able to turn out some pretty great stuff!
I like that chatbot already - sounds like something I want to have in my game (a logical, if maybe not 100% realistic, universe that reacts to what the player does).
Very good !
I gave a quick try and i'm wondering if i am missing something : is the only way to move between district is to use the space bar navigation ?
I mean i entered my home town checked the buildings found a stair up and a stair down, explored it all but can't seem to find doors/gates/etc... to move to another district, i can only do by pressing space bar ?
EDIT : my bad, just found the gate, can't believe i missed it :D
If this is not a combat game then what exactly will be the premise of the gameplay?
Last time I was reading up on the development posts, there were promises of leading armies, building up your influence, etc. I'm assuming that's no longer the development focus?Well, once you know where the item is, you still have to grab it right? That's where the armies and influence-building comes in. :)
Last time I was reading up on the development posts, there were promises of leading armies, building up your influence, etc. I'm assuming that's no longer the development focus?
Regardless, what I've seen so far is extremely impressive. I do, however, hope this project doesn't go the way of Overgrowth, becoming just another technical marvel with little actual gameplay content. But I've got a good feeling you'll be smart enough to sidestep that pitfall. Best of luck!
Well, once you know where the item is, you still have to grab it right? That's where the armies and influence-building comes in. :)
EDIT: Or..at least, that's one way to answer it. Previous posts by URR said that he moved away from the armies/influence-building because 4X games has already been done before, while the "cultural-mystery" genre has not yet been made. Better to be unique than to copy the crowd.
Good job with your game! Looks like your game can also works has a very detailed engine for other games. If there is a possibility to mod the game anyway.
I’ve actually been secretly working on the NPC face generation algorithm
I’ve actually been secretly working on the NPC face generation algorithm
Mother of fucking god
my game
my game
?
Portrait generation is something I'm planning for my game, and I even have the base pics languishing on my HDD. But whatever I can cook up using the moddable tiles code will be far inferior to your work!
Wow, an adventurey game which finally gives NPCs their own faces, unlike DF's @/e/h/g ? I like it.
I’ve actually been secretly working on the NPC face generation algorithm
Mother of fucking god
Well. World-gen is completed and i can say YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
Now gamelay! Dies the next release will feature items? (Of course they will) and if yes then what kind of items will be?
THE ABOVE SEVERAL IMAGES OF FACES, describes that URR IS AWESOME. Whoever thinks otherwise, "L"ook at the faces! If there was a kindgom of rougelikes (like the kindgom of MMORPG's where World of Warcraft is the leader) URR will be the king of kings.
THE ABOVE SEVERAL IMAGES OF FACES, describes that URR IS AWESOME. Whoever thinks otherwise, "L"ook at the faces! If there was a kindgom of rougelikes (like the kindgom of MMORPG's where World of Warcraft is the leader) URR will be the king of kings.
neat
they do procedurally emote and lipsynch, right?
The faces are great, and I love the fact that they exist. :)
I am stunned with your marvelous job.
Gj
It looks like they all follow the exact same diet.
I want to have a goatee beard, I want a square chin, I DO NOT WANT to be a commoner. I want a slave that looks like me. I want a scar. I want red hair, I want long red hair. I want URR. URR IS THE BEST GAME EVER.
Let me see
R for Acting Regent
In the mean time, another nice piece from RPS (though I think some people in the comments do not appreciate the challenges of procedural face generation within an ANSI grid...) http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/06/ultima-ratio-regum-faces/
Regent is very possible!
some people in the comments do not appreciate the challenges of procedural face generation within an ANSI grid...) http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/06/ultima-ratio-regum-faces/
Ah, So in that particular update, clothing and coinz shall be introduced... Well when we should know how they will look like! (that will give us some hint how weapons in the future looks like espescially armour)And i am very sorry for the common typos i am making, i am a fast typer.
I hate to ask again...but did you have a spot or a few posts somewhere about how you got started with procedural generation and/or more technical stuff?
Fantastic work with the faces!!! They look great and were much better than what I was expecting (on an ANSI grid!). I can't wait to walk around with NPCs!
One of the interesting points that a lot of people raised in the RPS article was how there has yet to be an 'engaging' procedurally generated game. Whilst I don't think that's strictly true, there certainly hasn't been one with both a good world AND story. They're all very much 'make your own fun' sort of things.
I'm very interested to see how you'll pull it off as I think this will be the thing that people remember - a game that was both massively procedural AND a fun game in and of itself. I suppose the test is can the player load up one world and enjoy that on it's own as a one off? As in, if you were stuck with the same world forever, would it be just as fun as knowing you can create endless new worlds.
NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE NEW UPDATE!
That face-age-alizer whatzit was a bit overly harsh, as well.
I hate to ask again...but did you have a spot or a few posts somewhere about how you got started with procedural generation and/or more technical stuff?
I've never really posted about this! I basically just used the libtcod + Python tutorial (easily Googled), taught myself Python from there, and now we're suddenly here. Everything I've done I've done through trial and error and the rare posting on a site like StackOverflow; URR's the first game I've ever made. I recommend using a tutorial you like, then just fiddling with the values, trying new things, seeing what governs what, and then coming to understand what exactly each line in the code actually refers to, and how you can use that code to do interesting things.
Excellent! Glad you like 'em. I thought that comment about "I have yet to play a fun procedural game" was totally bizarre. I just thought "so you've never played a procedural generation game, then?". Literally any classic or modern roguelike fits the bill. Weird. But as you say, if one interprets that as meaning engaging in a story sense, I suppose it is kind of true (although the meta-story in Isaac of child abuse/religion really resonates with me).
Ahh yeah thats what I am working on now...unfortunately most tutorials and what not out there simply cover theory and rarely show the actual code from what I have found. I have a basic grasp of it all. Got some health issues that are causing serious issues focusing proper so I suppose I should clear that up first :P
I do have to agree with them that a lot of procedural games sort of stop at the procedural content side of things. Take any of the procedural sidescrollers or minecraft clones - they're basically just 'Procedural Generation - the game' rather than using the procedural generation as the backdrop to a proper adventure. Partly it's because there's only so much fun that emergent gameplay can provide. Making your own story is all fine and good, but after a while most people feel some need for purpose. I'm excited to see how URR deals with this, as I'm sure it'll be awesome!
But Indie games are as a whole like that. They all just take superficial elements like "Classic platformer" or "survivor horror" or "Roguelike" and treat those features like they are fun in it of themselves instead of trying to make them as fun as they can possibly be.
Whenever I see a indie classic platformer and I hear the excuses in my ear "But it is so classic" I instantly compare it to Super Mario where the entire game was expertly crafted to be as fun as possible with the little resources as they have. While they intentionally use less resources but instead of using that as a way to put in more polished gameplay they treat "we have less" as a feature.
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I do think I should hold off on playing your game URR xD
Because I think we both know I'd never give the game any mercy.
With this system policies will therefore seriously affect (I hope) a player’s path around the world and choosing which nations to visit, knowing that certain shops will only appear in certain nations, some will be more/less hostile to foreigners, some have different systems for payment (or not) when moving around cities, some nations will have different punishments if the player decides to commit a crime within their land, etc. Should add an interesting level of grand strategy to the player’s movement, and be a lot more interesting than “abstract policies” which affect the player, but fail to distinguish between nations.Just a thought with this - it would seem that there are some policies which would make a city undesirable to visit,especially with certain combinations (say if you got Mercantile, ordeal and pacifism). With a good 20-30 cities, it would probably mean these would be skipped over if possible, or at least not be very exciting to visit.
Well a Merchantile civ historically tended to have a rather large military and a very strong assimilation drive.
You seem to want to turn them into the Ferengi Retropunch. "To use these stairs you must pay 10 dollars!"
Suggestions That May Be Ignored By The Good Doctor
Suggestions That May Be Ignored By The Good Doctor
They're all great suggestions, and I hope they're not ignored!! I really like the vigilantism one. Depending on how you handle crime, it could be quite an interesting, especially from a cultural standpoint.
Suggestions That May Be Ignored By The Good Doctor
They're all great suggestions, and I hope they're not ignored!! I really like the vigilantism one. Depending on how you handle crime, it could be quite an interesting, especially from a cultural standpoint.
Oddly enough Japan has had this culture at one point or another. Where if you wanted justice because someone wrong you... You not only had to do it yourself, but no one could deny you. It was later SPECIFICALLY banned in about the Meijin Era.
Magistrate system is also something I like as well. Basically Judge Dred is a Magistrate. A police officer who can collect evidence and sentence you... themselves. Quebec is a place that still uses Magistrates today.
Then there is Tribunal Justice where basically the community, or select members of the community, pass down judgement... and yes mob mentality was quite common.
Lots of lovely justice systems.
It is why when I was writing about that game setting I was making for a game I was going to run... I was just perplexed by people constantly saying "Well if that is the case then there would be a lot of unrest" because well... Historically? No...
Suggestions That May Be Ignored By The Good Doctor
Populism: Move the Chemist guy elsewhere because I don't really associate "mob rule" with "knowledge of chemistry". I'd create a Demagogue position, somebody who is an expert at leading the masses (usually in favor of whatever ruling class you have). In the original RTS foundations of this game, the demagogue might be a good recruiter, but in this new Cultural Murder Mystery genre, he might just be useful as a source of rumors (being in touch with the masses).
Vigilantism: I view roving bands of self-appointed "enforcers of the laws" protecting the people. They would be less well-armed than a regular police officier, but there would be more of them. (Note that this is a Cultural Murder Mystery though, and I'm not sure how fleshed-out combat may be, so this idea can be jettisoned in favor of something else, like dennislp3's buildings and weaponry).
Free Trade - a Bazaar building that has lots of goods and services imported from outside the city. These goods and services are more expensive than if you have bought them "locally"
Hegemony - The Poet, a propagandist whose main purpose is writing poems glorifying the dominant groups and denouncing the "Others". After all, any hegemonic power needs propaganda.
That was already in the policy chart that URR posted (Mercantilism - Enter/exit city costs)! In case there was any confusion, I'm not suggesting adding more penalties, but instead making none of the policies inherently good or bad for the player. With a lot of cities in the game (and presumably a lot of ways of reaching the end goal) I can imagine the player just not bothering with a lot of cities due to their penalties. This is especially the case being an RL game: the player is much more adversed to risk, and is likely to try to min/max the situation to at least some degree.
Whilst I know there's other ways to balance things out, I just feel that policies are one of those things that are innately balanced. Having ones that are bad doesn't really add a lot to the game, and from a 'realism' standpoint I can't imagine many cities implementing a policy that has no good effects.
Just wondering... how frequent is historical societal collapse in URR? Do you just generate ruins, or have you got some sort of model for civs declining?
It may be a lot of work :P, but practically anything of sufficient importance should have a chance of a nickname, from places to legions.
– Sense of Progress. The player dies in a permadeath game and feels angry or upset because nothing was achieved – unless, so the argument goes, they also unlocked something in the process, in which case that death no longer feels “meaningless”. Although making instinctive sense, this argument is the crux of the problem, and will be returned to later.You still need the sense of progress though, because "gathering skills and knowledge of the game" is an important part of death in non-roguelikes as well. In fact, the skills and knowledge is actually more useful in non-roguelikes, because there is no random events messing up your memorization and brute-forcing.
You still need the sense of progress though, because "gathering skills and knowledge of the game" is an important part of death in non-roguelikes as well. In fact, the skills and knowledge is actually more useful in non-roguelikes, because there is no random events messing up your memorization and brute-forcing.
Relying on abstract "acquisition of skills and knowledge" as a good reward system seems flat to me.
I care about this because of the educational potential. If there isn't honestly going to be any, please spell it out for me, creator.QuoteIf I wanted to learn, I would want to go to school to learn actually applicable skills.
There's no reason whatsoever to re-generate a brand new world every time a player loses a game
QuoteThere's no reason whatsoever to re-generate a brand new world every time a player loses a game
That's a good point, especially with a game with such a detailed world as URR. With the promised family trees, you could probably take my offspring idea (you keep playing as your kid in the same world) and run with it :)
An interesting analysis, and certainly an 'oldschool RL' one. I get what you're trying to say, but I think the hypothesis falls down in equating 'being a better player' with having any impact on your enjoyment of the game.
For some, being the very best is certainly their main aim (and I'd heartily agree with you for multiplayer games) but as RLs are almost exclusively single player pursuits, the key is surely, with any game, to have the most fun possible. Regardless of how 'serious' the game is, by virtue of it being a game it is something that someone must do for enjoyment.
More than that though, dying IS demoralizing and keeping the player enjoying themselves should surely be the core principle of a good game. A game shouldn't be judged to be good just because it keeps to the oldschool laugh-in-your-face-as-you-cry method of handling player death, and rewarding the player for their tenacity could be seen as just as encouraging to building up RL skills as anything.
Don't get me wrong the fact that you can easily die because you didn't think of a solution and need to play it a few times isn't a problem... But instead of thinking "How would a player think of a solution?" they think that players will want to beat their head into a wall and hope that when the wall crumbles will be a solution, but often no.
[...]
I think Roguelikes are a great genre but I think that creators of roguelikes need to think about their games more critically rather then just flaunting features as if they were "good in it of themselves".
The Crawl : Stone Soup tournaments are a good way for that game devs to observe what is going on with their game, and possibly modify things to get it better and/or more balanced in regards to specific situation.
And a good way to check feedbacks from the stats regarding the new areas/classes/species they introduce/remove from time to time.
Those stats are least are useful in the way that they're provided directly by players gameplay, not only game theories.
I have considered having worlds bleed into each other... but I'm not sure how yet!You probably already thought of this 'bleeding', but just in case...
Ok now that's good.QuoteI have considered having worlds bleed into each other... but I'm not sure how yet!You probably already thought of this 'bleeding', but just in case...
The whole point of the game is to sneak your way into the final dungeon and start modifying history, right? So if you lose, somebody else was able to successfully modify history instead. Lower Iraq is renamed to Uqbar, the origin story of the Ejiop civilization changed, maybe the war-mongering Tribe of Narik started embracing pacifism instead, etc. But the winner decided to do only just minor changes and variations. Enough to keep the player off-balance, but still retaining enough familiarity for the player. I would suggest keeping the world name the same, though, to make it blatant the continuity. Eventually, after a few hundred deaths, the minor changes will add up and produce a world completely unfamiliar to the starting conditions.
Teaser for the next URRpdate:
(http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2015/05/Snazzy.png)
The whole point of the game is to sneak your way into the final dungeon and start modifying history, right?
So if you lose, somebody else was able to successfully modify history instead. Lower Iraq is renamed to Uqbar, the origin story of the Ejiop civilization changed, maybe the war-mongering Tribe of Narik started embracing pacifism instead, etc. But the winner decided to do only just minor changes and variations. Enough to keep the player off-balance, but still retaining enough familiarity for the player. I would suggest keeping the world name the same, though, to make it blatant the continuity. Eventually, after a few hundred deaths, the minor changes will add up and produce a world completely unfamiliar to the starting conditions.
Where can I order one? And please tell me you're shipping to Europe!
Hey Mark,
Do you have any blog posts that talk about your actual artistic techniques? These are some of the high level bullet points I'd love to see you expound upon a bit:
- which portions of a art are procedural rendered, and how
- I assume you do a lot of mixing-and-matching between a selection of "templates", how do you make them fit together? How do you decide what the parts will be and how they will interact?
- I assume things like color and pattern are overlays, what are the challenges of making an overlay fit on an image (especially one that gives an impression of depth). An example here is how the pattern rolls onto the sleeves in the images above. Another example is wood grain on some of the furniture you have
- How do you decide when to use diagonal tiles, and when not to? For example, you use them in the front of the robe, but not on the collar or sleeves or cuffs. It seems that the design is both practical (does not give the exact angle you might want) and also stylistic (use of tile types is consistent within various parts of the image)
Are you considering a sound system for URR ?
I mean usually roguelikes and co are mostly silent, but there are some exception (recently replayed DoomRL and Infra Arcana) that feature a sound atmosphere that contribute a -lot- to the immersion in what is otherwise just terminal console coder stuff.
While DoomRL has to help itself the Doom franchise that put before even playing the player into the ambiance even if the monster/weapon sounds weren't there, Infra Arcana sound system is building the lovecraftian atmosphere and the tension all around fantastically.
Maybe this is something URR could benefit from, by example walking in a city street while hearing some medieval city sound, entering some temple and hearing some ... temple-related sound, walking in forest and hearing ... etc... would certainly make the game more immersive in my opinion.
A most intriguing question. I am, though it's not high on the priorities list. I totally agree with your logic though: it could lend a wonderful sense to it... particularly if I could somehow get some kind of system going which creates different ambient music for each nation?!?!
?!?!?!?!?!
At the same time, though... I know nothing about music, and I'm not sure if I could ever create such a system myself, which would necessitate some degree of outside help, so we'd have to see. I'm certainly not ruling it out though!
HNNGGGGG!!!!
[Further comments]
I'd give it some serious thought as it could be incredible.
As such, I am putting a few small limitations on this variation to guarantee “plausibility” (in this one regard) according to the real world, which is to say “full dresses” will never be generated as a male clothing style.Aww, shucks. I was hoping for dresses for men. :-[ My big brother wears dresses and he really manages to look very manly with them.
BootsWill there be religious orders who have to go bare feet? I think I remember there where some Christian monk… order group thingies, I don't know what they're called in English… that always went barefooted. Maybe make this a possible religious restriction? It could have practical consequences, with all the hazards boots are supposed to protect you from.
QuoteAs such, I am putting a few small limitations on this variation to guarantee “plausibility” (in this one regard) according to the real world, which is to say “full dresses” will never be generated as a male clothing style.Aww, shucks. I was hoping for dresses for men. :-[ My big brother wears dresses and he really manages to look very manly with them.QuoteBootsWill there be religious orders who have to go bare feet? I think I remember there where some Christian monk… order group thingies, I don't know what they're called in English… that always went barefooted. Maybe make this a possible religious restriction? It could have practical consequences, with all the hazards boots are supposed to protect you from.
QuoteAs such, I am putting a few small limitations on this variation to guarantee “plausibility” (in this one regard) according to the real world, which is to say “full dresses” will never be generated as a male clothing style.Aww, shucks. I was hoping for dresses for men. :-[ My big brother wears dresses and he really manages to look very manly with them.QuoteBootsWill there be religious orders who have to go bare feet? I think I remember there where some Christian monk… order group thingies, I don't know what they're called in English… that always went barefooted. Maybe make this a possible religious restriction? It could have practical consequences, with all the hazards boots are supposed to protect you from.
That's really interesting! Actually, in light of a lot of feedback (your's included), I've decided to change that - maybe it was a bit of a cop-out (for anyone wondering, my logic was entirely in the interests of preventing some players from being "amused" by having male NPCs wearing "dresses", i.e. the problematic history of transvestism being seen as inherently "comic", and a concern over unintentional humour, not one over any kind of desire to replicate the real world, since clearly playing out alternate histories is a big part of URR's intentions), and if someone chuckles... then they're probably not the kind of player I'm after! I've since updated the entry and the game's code; dresses for everyone! (Or whichever nations choose them).
Yes, definitely, and I like the idea a lot. There will definitely be some clothing things for certain religious orders, though I need to figure out how that is going to integrate with the rest of the clothing generation...
That's cool! I'm happy dresses for men are back in again.
Oops, I think I mixed up dresses and skirts here.
[...]
Still, dresses for men, yay! :D
Historically, a lot of clothing (even togas for example) are a lot more dress like than today.
These look fantastic and the variations are extremely interesting - I'm guessing peasants/non-aristocracy will wear a lot plainer/standard items, with perhaps a basic pattern or small identifier of caste/class?
Lastly, I wondered how easy it would be to add on some small defects/damages? I could imagine you might be able to quickly layer on some mud/sand on boots or some minor tears/scuffs in fabric, which would differentiate things more and give a more 'lived in' feel - especially for those from not in aristocratic classes.
Meh the fact we associate dresses with females is a somewhat wide spread idea, but it is still a punctual idea that doesn't hold in all societies of the day and of the past...
I don't think you should censor URR to fits todays "western" ideas, except maybe for child trafficking because that would certainly make a lot of publicity. :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)
Seems you were able to supply us with MOAR clothing of noble class. More pieces of fine masterwork.
QUESTION: Since these clothes are really beautifull does the player starts with a full set of this clothing? Or he just starts with peasant articles of clothing? or a bit of that and that?
Rather impressive clothing pieces , are you planning to make headgear too (crown, hat, hood, rags, bonnet etc...) ?
This looks really good !
Great entry and it looks really impressive!! From my own foray into this I had to add a few things in to make it look 'realistic'. Firstly a few random groups hanging around did wonders for 'realism', as did some very basic scheduling. People aren't always going somewhere, and having them always on the move just made it seem too much like a conveyor belt rather than proper walking.
I'd suggest you designate some open spaces as meeting points and have some path to there and then just stand around for a few hundred turns (with a bit of shuffling). I'd then maybe make sure more people go into houses at night (I had some go to a bar, and most go home) and then just have one or two out on the street (martial law districts could have no one out?). I also had npcs path to other npcs on occasion - I never got this working 100%, but it started to look really good, especially when they then went to a bar/shop together - it really looked like they were meeting friends and going off with them.
Can't wait to see how this progresses!
Very nice moving crowd .
Are you planning some smaller towns/villages, isolated groups of houses along those very big cities and then much smaller crowd too ?
Great entry and it looks really impressive!! From my own foray into this I had to add a few things in to make it look 'realistic'. Firstly a few random groups hanging around did wonders for 'realism', as did some very basic scheduling. People aren't always going somewhere, and having them always on the move just made it seem too much like a conveyor belt rather than proper walking.
I'd suggest you designate some open spaces as meeting points and have some path to there and then just stand around for a few hundred turns (with a bit of shuffling). I'd then maybe make sure more people go into houses at night (I had some go to a bar, and most go home) and then just have one or two out on the street (martial law districts could have no one out?). I also had npcs path to other npcs on occasion - I never got this working 100%, but it started to look really good, especially when they then went to a bar/shop together - it really looked like they were meeting friends and going off with them.
Can't wait to see how this progresses!
Excellent, and I love all of these ideas! I agree about the conveyor belt, which is why atm I'm working on having NPCs break off from the road sometimes to do their own things. I do intend to have some special groups who wander around, though I'm still working on the best way to code that (probably a "follow the leader" design), such as groups of merchants, foreign travelers, religious proselytizers, etc. However, I hadn't considered the idea of having people meet then walk off (a great one, I'll add it!) and also having people hang around in logical areas (parks, monuments, etc). I also need to handle loads of other stuff like people going in/out of buildings, etc, but that comes after the exterior crowd is completely finished.
Also, I was sad not to see you at the IRDC :( - it might be in Paris next year, and I *fully expect* your presence!
I hate to interrupt this discussion, but…
Could you maybe put your images into spoiler tags? Every time I jump to the latest unread message, my browser first calculates the position of that message and then starts loading the pictures, leading to me ending up somewhere far above the message that actually should be at the top of my screen.
I was dying to get there but unfortunately work was unavoidable (I tried my best! apparently 'ascii-addiction' isn't quite in the DSM yet) next year though! next year!
I did follow the leader for groups, but I also had them do a check every so many turns (quite a few) to see if they still wanted to follow the leader - that led to some nice sort of 'breaking away from the group' actions. I also tried to make them stop in a group and then move on a bit later as well - I never got that right, but it seemed like a good thing to do. I eventually had nearly all npc's in groups (2-8), with only relative few on their own - that looked a lot better in my opinion and seemed more realistic.
The hardest thing for me to do was get 'standing around' to look realistic. It's surprisingly difficult to walk the line between static and mad-jittering!
I hate to interrupt this discussion, but…
Could you maybe put your images into spoiler tags? Every time I jump to the latest unread message, my browser first calculates the position of that message and then starts loading the pictures, leading to me ending up somewhere far above the message that actually should be at the top of my screen.
Thoughts!
Shovel-related thoughts!
This all looks incredible as always. Very interesting and the thing with guards/permissions is a very good idea.
My one thought about the difficulty of colours matching is that it's always better to prioritise clarity over aesthetics. Looking at ASCII for any length of time (and URR is going to be getting a lot of playing!) is already a difficulty, and if you're not easily able to pinpoint things without peering it'll become painful.
Resources for Python: I basically just used the Python+libtcod tutorial and experimented with it, and that was it, aside from very rarely going onto Stack Overflow and asking someIt sounds like you've avoided some of the pitfalls of development.idioticincisive questions now and then. I bought about half a dozen books but I never actually read any of them, andincinerateddonated them a few months ago when I had a big clear. I just found experimenting to be a far easier method to learn, along with asking the odd question; there was just so much in the "textbooks" that was simply unnecessary to my survival as a Python-based RL developer.
PTW
I like. Seeing as you've got all the pieces separately, do you plan on showing full-body images of NPC's bedecked in all their gear? As for crowds, what do you think of showing a band pic of a posse, or a random selection of city faces to get a feel for the place?
What kind of thing do you have in mind for showing a selection of faces? My thinking is that upon encountering a new nation and looking at/talking to the people, the player should get a decent impression just from that (and from seeing the crowd move and noting what types of NPCs actually spawn in that crowd)
What kind of thing do you have in mind for showing a selection of faces? My thinking is that upon encountering a new nation and looking at/talking to the people, the player should get a decent impression just from that (and from seeing the crowd move and noting what types of NPCs actually spawn in that crowd)
Sure. Still saves time to have a "faces in the crowd" popup vs "looking" at 4 or so people. Messages picking out trends (or the lack of them) in the crowd like "you notice a lot of boots covered in sea shells" could hint at wealth, religion, ghetto's, etc.
It sounds like all the development is about building this incredible game world...what is the game going to be in the world?
Ptw
Wow, it's grown a lot since the early days. Keep it up man, I hope it turns out awesome!
As always - fantastic!
Just a quick question - can you (l)ook or (e)xamine npc's to tell what they're doing? Such as viewing a painting or praying or whatever?
The level of details of this game, it's simply amazing.
Best of luck in your development of Ultima Ratio Regum.
Will the super mega detailed and amazing prayer carpet be in my own home if I or my family are pious worshippers of a god? I'd like to have such an amazing prayer carpet besides my bed for foresleep prayers of dream safety
It sounds like all the development is about building this incredible game world...what is the game going to be in the world?
By the end of the next 12 months this will be very clear, but the best answer I've given is this one, which I will now copy/paste in. Basically, the game is going to be about information. You are seeking to locate a very small number of items scattered around the world; to do so, the more the player understands the world, the easier this task will be. This means conversing with NPCs, examining books, coming to learn about the cultures/religions of that world, the history of various nations, exploring and gaining access to buildings, and plotting your path around the world map to "track down" these items. It's almost a... research game, one could call it? The world is insanely detailed (and only becoming more so with every release), and it's the close examination of the world and figuring out the paths these artefacts have taken, and who may possess them now, which will be key to success! But for this to work, the world must be in place first, hence the worldbuilding focus up to this point...
Thanks! Yes, that is the plan; now quite sure how best to do it though, given the existing NPC look-up windows. Possibly it'll be a message at the bottom instead when you look at somebody, though I don't like splitting it up between lookup and the message. So I'll try and fit it in the lookup, maybe below the nickname list etc, and make sure that list can't be so long? Alternatively, if I decide to go the bold route and have no combat whatsoever, then I can remove all the "damage" counters for clothing, and that'll free up tons of room!
I was eager to play a RL which is not only about battling against hordes of various monsters, insanely scouring through scary dungeons in hope to possess as much valuable loot as it possible, but also about kind exploring and immersive examining. Is Ultima Ratio Regum of this kind? Regardless of your remark, it does look amazing and tempting to try out, I'm really mesmerized and looking forward to play this as the development is finished.
*Please* don't go down the non-combat route. I know it seems appealing as it's sort of not been done before and its a challenge, but I think it'll lose a ton of appeal. Mainly though, I feel it would be a bit bizarre/less realistic because you couldn't attack anyone in a time where life was pretty violent. I mean, as everyone carried around swords or weapons, and there are guards/militia that are obviously armed - it'd be a bit odd. If you tried to force it by making the player a pacifist character it'd lock out a lot of roleplaying options and stop the open play style which URR is heading for.I think that people tend to get a somewhat distorted idea of the past (since we tend to have movies, games, and books about it that fixate on the "exciting" parts, which usually means combat.) Most people in the era when Ultima Ratio Regum was set would not carry weapons. In fact, depending on exactly when and where it was set, most people might not even have been allowed to carry weapons. They might have had armed guards -- but then again, they might not have. Smaller settlements likely wouldn't have actually had any formal police or guards at all, they're a modern innovation. If you count police, you'd probably have a bigger "armed militia", per capita, in most cities in the modern US than in most cities in the ancient world.
*Please* don't go down the non-combat route. I know it seems appealing as it's sort of not been done before and its a challenge, but I think it'll lose a ton of appeal. Mainly though, I feel it would be a bit bizarre/less realistic because you couldn't attack anyone in a time where life was pretty violent. I mean, as everyone carried around swords or weapons, and there are guards/militia that are obviously armed - it'd be a bit odd. If you tried to force it by making the player a pacifist character it'd lock out a lot of roleplaying options and stop the open play style which URR is heading for.I think that people tend to get a somewhat distorted idea of the past (since we tend to have movies, games, and books about it that fixate on the "exciting" parts, which usually means combat.) Most people in the era when Ultima Ratio Regum was set would not carry weapons. In fact, depending on exactly when and where it was set, most people might not even have been allowed to carry weapons. They might have had armed guards -- but then again, they might not have. Smaller settlements likely wouldn't have actually had any formal police or guards at all, they're a modern innovation. If you count police, you'd probably have a bigger "armed militia", per capita, in most cities in the modern US than in most cities in the ancient world.
The vast majority of people throughout history have gone through life without killing anyone. (There are a few exceptions -- Sparta systematized the murder of its underclass of slaves in order to keep them in line, say -- but even then it holds true, since most of the people there would have been helot slaves; and such societies continue to attract interest because they are unusual, that is to say, not normal, even in their own time period.) In the Middle Ages, the homicide rate was a bit higher than it was today, but emphasis on a bit -- in 14th century London, for example, the homicide rate was roughly 36 to 52 per 100,000 people per year, not that far off from what it was in the nastier parts of New York's recent history.
Anyway, I'm mostly indifferent to whether violence is in the game or not as long as it's not the main focus; the main question is whether it can make doing other things (diplomacy, exploration, and so on) fun, giving players ways to interact with the world in a way that makes the things they learn about it meaningful.
Thoughts
I certainly wouldn't want it to be a focus, but I would hate for it to be washed out when it really was a part of life - even if not to the Game of Thrones level of bloodshed.
Will legendary weapons exist in the game? Legendary weapons are those who have a legend, unique design, and superior quality (along with respect and awe) (for example "Xaqunop Kelkor" is a tri-bladed sword made from steel which was wielded by Xaqunop who has killed many monarchs) I'd love to find such legends and wield them! And if yes then where would they be found?
I see two options atm.
1) Player can choose to pursue a combat-oriented approach, but it is entirely optional, and never forced upon a player, and player can always "surrender" (to avoid issues like the Deus Ex:HR bosses where you were forced to fight).
2) Only NPCs can "fight", player cannot, and has to pursue other methods, though can recruit bodyguards etc. This would be really weird, but really different, so... maybe?
Right now, I'm leaning towards #1. Do nothing to encourage the player towards combat, but have it a system the player can engage with if they choose (think of something like the more obscure systems in NetHack, like polymorphing, demon summoning, etc). The issue is... *fundamentally*, I think I would like to go no-combat, but I just don't see how a realistic Renaissance world could be portrayed without the possibility of combat, and if the player can't fight but others can, then how do I portray/rationalize this?!
URR is my most-anticipated adventurer gamer of all time.
I think the first one sounds ideal. I certainly, certainly would not want it to be a focus, but just not having it or making the player unable to fight would seem purposefully obtuse. However, the one way around it would be to make combat very deadly no matter how skilled you are (or, possibly more interestingly, have a high chance at causing long term damage/disability). This would therefore push the player a lot more towards getting bodyguards and/or other security rather than making it feel like becoming a super warrior is a priority.
All that being said, some people are going to want to pursue that path, and I think it's a fine thing to let them. With such an open world it would be a shame to restrain the player choices with the type of character they can play.
Have you thought about how much the player will be able to purchase/own in the game? Will we be able to own houses? castles? cities?!
URR is my most-anticipated adventurer gamer of all time.
Thank y'very much :).I think the first one sounds ideal. I certainly, certainly would not want it to be a focus, but just not having it or making the player unable to fight would seem purposefully obtuse. However, the one way around it would be to make combat very deadly no matter how skilled you are (or, possibly more interestingly, have a high chance at causing long term damage/disability). This would therefore push the player a lot more towards getting bodyguards and/or other security rather than making it feel like becoming a super warrior is a priority.
All that being said, some people are going to want to pursue that path, and I think it's a fine thing to let them. With such an open world it would be a shame to restrain the player choices with the type of character they can play.
Have you thought about how much the player will be able to purchase/own in the game? Will we be able to own houses? castles? cities?!
Yeah, I'm leaning this way. We'll see though! I do like the idea of having nothing in the game which indicates the possibility of combat, and the player has to "seek it out" - and perhaps the barrier to entry is fairly high in some way. I think it would be interesting to rather than have combat as the "norm", then other methods of play for more advanced players, do the opposite: combat is only really suitable for very advanced players and is tricky to access. As for purchase/own... I'm not sure. Probably the answers to the three are: possibly, no, no!
I see two options atm.
1) Player can choose to pursue a combat-oriented approach, but it is entirely optional, and never forced upon a player, and player can always "surrender" (to avoid issues like the Deus Ex:HR bosses where you were forced to fight).
2) Only NPCs can "fight", player cannot, and has to pursue other methods, though can recruit bodyguards etc. This would be really weird, but really different, so... maybe?
Right now, I'm leaning towards #1. Do nothing to encourage the player towards combat, but have it a system the player can engage with if they choose (think of something like the more obscure systems in NetHack, like polymorphing, demon summoning, etc). The issue is... *fundamentally*, I think I would like to go no-combat, but I just don't see how a realistic Renaissance world could be portrayed without the possibility of combat, and if the player can't fight but others can, then how do I portray/rationalize this?!
If combat is for advanced players only, I'd imagine there would be great rewards for being successful considering the difficulty involved.
I am also leaning towards #1. Combat being (almost) optional in DX series was an amazing thing. On the other hand, those who want to fight, will be able to. Cue highwaymen Retropunch mentioned.
Will you be sharing enough of the code that visualisers could be made? I love your work, but I'd still prefer stuff like rooms full of H's in isometric or first person.
Bluwolfie, "The Wise and Patient" is a motto. Not a description.
Are the members of each house going to exhibit unique traits and behaviors? I mainly ask in reference to the text describing them. "The wise and patient" for example, is it safe to assume that there are going to be sage like characteristics to such a house? And/or perhaps they gravitate to certain positions, political or scholarly? And another house may be known for their fierce warriors or haughty nature?
Anyway, I think it'd be cooler, overall, if the motto meant something. A house with "By Sword and Fire" as their motto should probably be pretty different from one with "Prosperity and Trade" or something.
Awesome as always. Just a quick question - how deeply are you delving into scheduling? I feel that it's a huge thing in terms of giving the city a proper 'feel' to it. Having the streets getting busier at the end of the work days, followed by the taverns filling up, followed by everything being quiet other than a few brothels/taverns will really make it feel alive.
Also, are you doing days of the week? The church/holy day would be a big one, but I can imagine other differences in days (weekends being busier in the taverns perhaps?).
How much this feeds into gameplay is obviously up to you to decide, but I feel that it's an unmissable part of a strong simulation.
This week I’ve implemented almost all the “stationary” NPCs. To explain what I mean by this, URR has three “tiers” of NPC: the crowd, the stationary, and the crucial. Crowd NPCs spawn and despawn as the player moves around the world map and are of importance insofar as they demonstrate the demographics of the nation, and you will be able to acquire significant information about the generality of the nation/religion/culture they belong to from them, and they serve also, when in crowds, to illustrate something of that nation’s ideologies (so you’ll only see a crowd with a bunch of people trailing a priest in quite a religious nation, for instance). Stationary NPCs are positioned in locations where there must always be an NPC serving a certain function, but the individual is not of particular important. Examples would be priests in religious buildings, jailers in prisons, innkeeps, guards, and many others. In some cases these individuals will “change” around after time – guards, for example, will be “met” by another guard at a certain point who will then take over the guarding role, i.e. they change shifts – whilst others, like priests, will obviously not change every few hours. Crucial NPCs, meanwhile, are those NPCs who are of sufficient importance to the game and the world that regardless of where the player is, the actions and movements of these NPCs will always be tracked. This category is primarily for NPCs like rulers, religious leaders, inquisitors, heretical leaders, nobles, military officers, and the like. Also, very rarely, what appears to be a stationary NPC will actually be a crucial NPC. Which is to say: in a jail, maybe 95% of the prisoners will be “general” prisoners, but a tiny number might have massive global significance due to their past role in a grand plot, and one wouldn’t know which was which until uncovering a path of clues which lead you to the important prisoner. Ninety-nine out of every hundred priests might be good loyal clerics… but perhaps one in a hundred hides an religious artefact of immense importance in their private quarters?I do have what might be an excessively-obvious question: Won't the player be able to figure out if a stationary NPC is crucial or not by carefully observing their movements and determining if they're being tracked in detail when offscreen?
I do have what might be an excessively-obvious question: Won't the player be able to figure out if a stationary NPC is crucial or not by carefully observing their movements and determining if they're being tracked in detail when offscreen?
I'd be happy to wait several months more in order to have something to do with the NPCs. In shame like this, it's such an important feature after all.
I'd really much rather have an earlier update without conversation. This is mainly from a perspective of wanting to help - I feel that the current stage would be significant enough for us to chew on for a while and report back any bugs/problems/thoughts. Whereas if you add in conversation that'll be a huge amount of new stuff to be faced with for us to sort through.
Whilst I would hate to sound to be doubting your majestic development skills, I do feel that as URR gets more advanced/indepth there's a lot more scope for overlooking of some issues, and I feel the only way to get around that is to let people dabble and report back.
EDIT: Also, please try to put the pictures in spoilers! It can make it difficult to follow the past thread of updates/discussion.
When a guard spawns, the game sets a length of their watch, and when this period is up, a new guard is spawned as close to the guard as possible without the player being able to see the new guard spawn.Is it possible for the new guard to spawn someplace silly, or somewhere where the player might notice a guard couldn't possibly come from (eg. a closet the player previously saw was empty, or a guard popping out of a 1x1 unseen space behind a pillar?) Now I'm picturing some sort of mass changing of the guards where all the replacements pop out of the shadow of the same pillar like they're pouring out of a clown car.
Spawning a guard in the closest unseen location reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk); just because the player can't actually see your spawning doesn't mean it's necessarily going to make sense!
Spawning a guard in the closest unseen location reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk); just because the player can't actually see your spawning doesn't mean it's necessarily going to make sense!
Fantastic work! I love that you've got replacing in - I had wondered how/if you were going to tackle it or if we were just going to get immortal and unmoving guards/npcs. The abstracting of travel is also impressive. Depending on how tight the clock is (and I'm hoping it's not too tight!) then it might force players to use the overmap more as it's always going to be the quickest, but that's probably not a bad thing.
Good point!! It would probably be best if they spawned on a main road or an open area. It shouldn't be too noticeable as I doubt the change overs will be too regular, but it still could seem strange if you get one spawn from where there is just a brick wall.
Interesting post, and congrats on the new position!!!
I did wonder about npcs and housing - will all static npc's have houses assigned to them? It might be a bit difficult to do ALL npc's (and many may potentially be travelling/not from the area), but static ones would presumably live in the area and should probably have housing assigned to them. That could lead to interesting mechanics, such as killing/ordering the killing of a static NPC at their home so that their post is then free at their allotted time.
Suggestion on fast travel I found to be interesting in my own ponderings, not sure if it's implemented or if it'd work for you but:
Let's say you want to go from Stabland to Generic Castle Fortress and it'd take about 5 hours to get there on foot. That is, without fast travel. If you decide to fast travel it'll take x% longer to reach. It'd give players a reason to stick to slow travel (other than missing the small, but not unimportant, things). I did think of the argument that it may be too "gamey" but it could be explained away by the player taking the most direct route as opposed to the fastest, which anyone who's used google maps will know can have a huge difference in travel time.
Perhaps being on horse/cart/flock of seagulls could change the modifier for fast travel time as well?
Suggestion on fast travel I found to be interesting in my own ponderings, not sure if it's implemented or if it'd work for you but:
Let's say you want to go from Stabland to Generic Castle Fortress and it'd take about 5 hours to get there on foot. That is, without fast travel. If you decide to fast travel it'll take x% longer to reach. It'd give players a reason to stick to slow travel (other than missing the small, but not unimportant, things). I did think of the argument that it may be too "gamey" but it could be explained away by the player taking the most direct route as opposed to the fastest, which anyone who's used google maps will know can have a huge difference in travel time.
Perhaps being on horse/cart/flock of seagulls could change the modifier for fast travel time as well?
I personally disagree - I'd hate to feel punished for taking the most convenient option especially when (with no disrespect meant to the gorgeous wilderness) its not very fun to endlessly wander around the wilderness (/get lost). I do feel there should be an overall cost (food/rations) on travelling, but that it should work out as roughly similar if you walk it or fast travel. Admittedly, taking carts/caravans should cost in actual money as well, but they should be moderately faster/safer to account for this.
HOWEVER (and I love the possibility of seagull travel) - there are going to be several modifiers in 0.9 (0.8 is going to be a huge release, assuming I do NPCs and conversations, so 0.9 will be quick and small). Having a mount will speed you up significantly, but only if you travel on roads. Crossing desert will be slow (5x?) unless you're in a caravan, in which case it is only a little slower than normal terrain (2x?). Crossing mountains will be immensely slow (10x?) unless you are going across a mountain pass, in which case again, only a little slower than normal terrain (3x?). Water will be uncrossable except by ship, which will probably take something like 2x standard movement time (or maybe just 1x? We'll see). I think the main travel cost will be time, and obviously money if you do buy a place in a caravan, hire a guide across the mountains, buy a place in a ship, buy a horse, etc!
I'd love there to be different methods of travelling if you can spend it - like having some of the desert people taking you across on a fast caravan would only be 1.5x slower or something, compared to just a normal caravan at 2x. Similarly, an average ship might be 1.5x across the sea, but a dedicated fast frigate might be 1x. Obviously you could account for the speed increase due to normal caravans/boats/whatever would have stops or might not know the most efficient route. You could then have ones that might be slower but better protected, and other variations.
As travel is so important, I'd see the variations as a really good way to encourage more strategy from players - do I pay more to get there quicker? Am I more worried about speed or protection? would it be better to do this journey slower, hope I can make more money at the next port, and then pay more for the other legs of the journey?
The only problem however is the game clock. As I've always said, I feel that rushing the player would sacrifice all the hard work you've put into world building (and annoy the player a lot, as they want to explore and take in the world), but if there is no rush to do anything, you're always going to take the slowest and safest route. I'd really suggest that you have a sort of 'not on the clock unless pursuing a quest' style. So if someone asks you to do something, there will always be a time-limit (deliver this to xyz within 4 days) but otherwise time isn't so important (although money is, so you'd need to keep doing quests - which are on a time limit to gather the funds to travel). I know you have an overarching timelimit you want to impose, but I'd suggest this be very flexible and also quite relaxed.
Posting to watch this already awesome thing.
Hmm... I can see the advantages of using time as a hard limit, but personally I prefer games without hard time limits, since sometimes it can be fun to just enjoy yourself and explore, which is hard to really get into when you know the game will end if you spend too long mucking around. It encourages the player to try and optimize absolutely everything, which can be good for balance and can make for easier game-design, but which I don't think is actually very fun. I would suggest a softer limit where wasting time makes the game more difficult in some way (causing you to lose the trail or something in some abstract way), up to a certain maximum where you're totally off-task and will have to work hard to get back on-task but aren't penalized for just spending forever exploring some random ruin if that's what floats your boat.
That way, there would be time pressure when the player is actively pursuing their main goal, but they'd also be free to approach the game in other ways if they want.
Hmm... I can see the advantages of using time as a hard limit, but personally I prefer games without hard time limits, since sometimes it can be fun to just enjoy yourself and explore, which is hard to really get into when you know the game will end if you spend too long mucking around. It encourages the player to try and optimize absolutely everything, which can be good for balance and can make for easier game-design, but which I don't think is actually very fun. I would suggest a softer limit where wasting time makes the game more difficult in some way (causing you to lose the trail or something in some abstract way), up to a certain maximum where you're totally off-task and will have to work hard to get back on-task but aren't penalized for just spending forever exploring some random ruin if that's what floats your boat.
That way, there would be time pressure when the player is actively pursuing their main goal, but they'd also be free to approach the game in other ways if they want.
I completely agree in principle (and I usually HATE time limits), although URR is one of the few that I'm willing to make an exception with. Not being able to explore absolutely everything will make you prioritise where you go, which I believe will definitely have the effect of giving a lot more strategy and re-playability - want to explore the great desert fortress of Ba'Nak? well then you can't see the swamp city of Urhal. Want to go to the coastal slave town of Lila? Well then you can't make it to the frozen encampment of Al-surway shamans.
However, I'd hate to feel rushed on a micro level. I assume that the game time is years, so spending three or four in game days wandering around a ruin probably wouldn't make much of a difference. I imagine it's only really for long trips (that would take weeks/months) where there's a time limit. Furthermore, I completely agree that the time limit should be soft. If there's a hard time limit of exactly 15 months or something, you're always going to have to have that hanging over your head and the player will try to optimise everything possible to squeeze some more time in. If the game just gradually ramps up in difficulty/other things happen, that'd be fine.
Very interesting post! (please use spoilers for images though!!!!)
I'm a bit unsure about it though - I feel that there might be far too much information for any casual player to process. Whilst having to piece things together is fun, information overload is not. As you've said, you don't want the player to be endlessly staring at the encyclopaedia - but I worry that having just long lists of all the things you've seen would cause even MORE of that. Take a look at the list of houses or gods - that's far more than anyone could be expected to remember, and having the information any more diffuse than that would just be impossible to process.
I'd suggest that you allow the player to piece things together themselves in the journal. So lets say that every time you discovered a new nation, it'd add an entry to the encyclopaedia - after that, you can fill in what the flag is/leaders are and so on from a list of all the things you've seen/heard/found that relate to that nation. So it'd be like how it is now, but the player would be in charge of putting things together. I'd combine this with major things/people being added automatically to the correct place.
To be honest though, I still think that'll be far too tedious for the player. I completely get that it's the whole point of the game is for the player to work things out, but you want the player to have easy access to the information they need to do the working out.
Replies in bold...
Checked the last updates, and I have a few questions about game mechanics
1: If I am a noble, what family I'd be a member of? Minor or major? Minor - never a ruling family.
2: Does ppl recognize my noble title and show me respect? In your home nation, certainly; elsewhere, less likely.
3: Do I am able to create my char or everything be put into random generator? Currently you choose nation, but I'm strongly leaning towards doing away with even that and have the game pick what it thinks is the most "interesting" nation to start; you can choose f/m, but otherwise nothing. Probably.
4: Are there chances I may spawn already married/engaged to someone? Nope.
5: Will be there a possibility that I may have old wounds or physical changes due to events? Probably!
6: Will I attain scars? Probably!
7: Will I be able to woo someone and marry that person? Nope.
8: Will I start with a weapon? Not sure! Depends how combat makes it in, if it does.
9: Can I own ships, shops, disctrics and everything that generates $$$? Interesting question; answer for now is "probably".
10: Will alchemy exist and if yes then where I can find known formulae? Nope!
11: Can I follow more than 1 religion? I'm currently thinking that the player character can appear to follow as many as they want; the gods are not "real", in the NetHack/DCSS sense of physically affecting the world, so the player character can follow any religions they want... though obviously Religion A finding out you secretly worship Religion B who they hate might not take it well.
12: Am I able tomarry more than 1 person? See above!
13: Can I make weapons and armour and if yes then where I can find known styles? Hmm... not sure.
14: Will be there a skill system? Naaa.
15: Will be more things on worldmap that it is atm? The map is pretty busy already! Monasteries are appearing this release, but that'll probably be it, aside from caravan routes through deserts and mountain passes through mountains in 0.9.
16: Will be there a possibility to observe the sky and see planets? Possibly! I've been thinking about this. Could be a bit of nice detail.
17: Will astrology exists and if yes then where I can find known info about planets? Exist in the sense of "have gameplay effect"? No. Exist in the sense of "some NPCs believe it"? Probably!
18: Will be there a visual representation of wounds? Hopefully.
That's all! Thanks!
(sorry for flooding with questions) No problem!
Reading in-game, opinionated tomes DF style sounds cooler to me then perusing your stacks of flash cards.
It makes sense that you'd have some minor, biased preconceptions before you go to a region. I would rather have the gamecorrectwhat is blatantly wrong, and let the player evaluate and pencil in the margins the rest for themselves.
In a game all about the flexibility of record-keeping, i feel it would be a shame to miss out on book burning, of those self-same treatises - but leaving your notes intact.
That way, players nursing conspiracies will be left blinking in the sun, and be forced to see if their theories hold up in the light of day- or if you're playing by ear, decision time as to whether you'll go purely by feel or actually it's time to start scheming.
Sometimes you don't want notes, and it's glass-shattering to be in the middle of a promising encounter and start trawling through your pocket travel guide (unless you actually do this in game, with modifiers).
Tattoos. Need i say more? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vS0E9bBSL0) Next, oral records. Ask an NPC! Third, "memories". The more exhilarating the encounter, the less you recall and the longer it takes. It would include fragments of the notes you've most recently made, details relating to your environment and some pretty random stuff.
The recall mechanic could be hilarious, and make for interesting choices. Should i smell the flowers to remember which one is poisonous, or try to stealthily rummage through my backpack for my scroll on herbalism?
Options such as "illiterate", "dyslexic", "Amnesiac", or making your notes vulnerable and Heavy could be fun no?
Man i should be in the credits
I think that, since making these connections and inferences is core to the game, you should try to 'gamify' them somehow -- to make it so the player is eager to find them and input them, to give them a feel of immediate reward for discovering them.
Look at it as a iron man mode. Players who want an Eidetic memory can have one, and the RP heavy demographic can have this.
Interesting. So, does that leave the possibility for absences in something like Guard duty?
IE: If Guard A is due to replace Guard B at 9AM, but has a meeting with a lover/conspirator/whatever at that time, it should override that guard's change over time, right. So he will go to his event, be there at 9. At 9, Guard B's shift ends: does he leave, or extend his shift until guard A arrives? If you wanted to get into a place, it would be interesting to be able to take advantage of a temporary absence of guard, for whatever purpose, between the time Guard B walks away to get some sleep, and Guard A arrives from their scheduled event.
I'm interested in roguelikes and Borges' fiction and I can definitely see the thematic connection. There is no possible world in which I wouldn't want to play this.
You really should put a link to the website in the first post.
Sounds very interesting indeed. I wonder if it might be worth putting in some overall 'states' for under different conditions. For instance, if the city was under attack/plague/religious ceremony/festival and so on. It would then check this list first, and see if there's anything special that needs to be done.
Perhaps you could just do all of these with different spawning of unimportant NPCs, but it might be nice to have some sort of different observable behaviours.
One of the things that I'd love to see - and something that I really don't think has been done before - is a changing world, where things can actually dramatically change for ever rather than having a sort of 'sitcom reset'. City gets the plague? drastically lower population/abandoned. A lot of this would be portrayed through NPC actions more than anything else - many games do it with conversation ('you're Foo the terrible murderer!') but it would be great to see that expanded into the schedules and actions of all NPCs
Dialects pretty please! I found it striking that one corner of england could barely understand the other end in tudor times (all the invasions and new settlers didn't help).
30+ forms of English for each nation:o
30+ forms of English for each nation:o
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2015/10/Oceanroutes.pngOne way to make your ocean routes look a little more realistic would be to weight the deeper parts of it as more expensive to travel through for the purposes of ocean crossing. This will have ships hug the coast a little more realistically until they're ready to cross at nearer points.
http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2015/10/Oceanroutes.pngOne way to make your ocean routes look a little more realistic would be to weight the deeper parts of it as more expensive to travel through for the purposes of ocean crossing. This will have ships hug the coast a little more realistically until they're ready to cross at nearer points.
That tiny channel with all those sea trade routes going through would make a pirate salivate...
Great idea about ocean routes Aseaheru!!
What are your ideas about piracy? I know it's a long time in the future, but are you thinking of an actual 'event' or a sort of end of action report?
Oh god more procedural generated content porn pls.
(Or even procedural porn 8) )
Amazing progress so far! I'm still watching this intently. :)
I love URR, because it's a small indie project tightly focused on its goals.
(And looks beautiful)
Extremely impressive work as always.
Just one question - have you thought about how you're going to tie the economy of nations into this? Perhaps you'd do it at a more macro level (more cities compared to villages for a wealthy nation and vice versa), or maybe on the type of districts available to spawn, but castles might be a good place to also show this off - Wealthy nations would have lavish castles whereas poorer ones would have more of a fort.
Just a thought!
I hate ASCII games - yet I absolutely cannot wait to play this when it's near a playable form. Seriously stoked - awesome stuff.
Once again blown away by how sleek and beautiful URR is compared to most ascii games out there
Man, I'm excited about the news!
Wowsers. Those are some pretty huge castles and stuff.
The only thing I'd mention, however, is the castle walls. Do any ideologies have the "practical" straight walls to their castle or do they all have the weird indian-esque zig-zag?
Wowsers. Those are some pretty huge castles and stuff.
The only thing I'd mention, however, is the castle walls. Do any ideologies have the "practical" straight walls to their castle or do they all have the weird indian-esque zig-zag?
I have to say I do have a concern though, which is that from looking at those castles (and other big buildings) I'd be hard pressed to know what's where internally (even with a birdseye view!). I can pick out the throne room and a dining room, but everything else is difficult to say. Whilst exploration is fun, getting lost in endless store rooms and whatever whilst you're trying to desperately talk to the king may become tiresome.
This is the obviously compounded on by the incredibly impressive but also very different shapes, meaning that it won't even be that you'll be able to use your knowledge from last time in future.Perhaps you might be able to do something UI wise to overcome this?
So this game is made in Python, no wonder the updates are coming out at such a fast pace 8).
This looks incredibly neat.
Ooooh, academia.
I'm following you since the very first blog post, and i'm hugely impressed by your Pythonic skills.
PTW, been lurking for a while. This is an amazing project, you're doing great work, keep it up. Probably, of the world generators I've seen, this aims for the most comprehensive and varied creation, which is highly commendable.
The pathfinding code must be a nightmare. Nice to see the beautiful new clothes in action, too.
College/university students only, right?
Well, thats one sibling who will be mildly distressed.
Glad to see this is still going strong, I haven't checked up on it in quite a while!
I will certainly have to try it out again in the near future. The sheer number of features I'm seeing is kinda overwhelming, haha.
And those graphics... wow. You've done a great job on that, for sure. I wasn't expecting to see faces staring out at me from screenshots of an ASCII game!
College/university students only, right?
It's a reply to this:College/university students only, right?
Wait, what?
Fancy coming to work with me for 9 weeks?No high-school students, in other words.
Are you a student? Fancy coming to work with me on procedural generation for a few months? Now’s your chance!
Wow! Great as ever. Just a question - in the donut-shaped castle you showed, there doesn't seem to be a way into the middle bit. Is that intentional?
I meant that there was no door into it, unless I misun the gif.Wow! Great as ever. Just a question - in the donut-shaped castle you showed, there doesn't seem to be a way into the middle bit. Is that intentional?
Oh, yeah, that leads back outside into an interior garden in the castle! But that counts as outside, so it's blank in the interior map.
Oh, whoops, you're right! Well spotted. Fixed.
Oh, whoops, you're right! Well spotted. Fixed.
On the subject of doors, I somet see towns in heavily forested areas where trees block the only door to some houses.
you can only move in cardinal directions
It's looking so staggeringly awesome it's making me green. With jealousy, of course. ;) I have just one question, though: how do you ensure that crossing a map tile never takes more than 200 steps? I mean, if there is a river through the middle, and a plethora of buildings, especially in slums or poor districts, with winding roads, one would guess it is possible that the shortest route from random house (where the guard may reside) to the exit on the other end of the map might be longer than 200 steps, due to all that meandering. Are you taking any steps to ensure that there is no such possibility? I'm curious, since that's so big project and awesomely intricate - watching it grow is like watching Sagrada Familia being build, only over a decade, not a century. :)
ptw
Nice stuff, I really like it!
Just a question, have there been any changes in this version regarding movement? It's a pain to navigate places with circle ideologies on foot, because you can only move in cardinal directions, and have to hammer on the keys to follow curves, since if you're holding forewards, then hit left, and release left, you don't resume moving forwards.
Asking because on-foot exploration seems to be a really important part of the game.
you can only move in cardinal directions
I have not tried the latest version, but it looks like this is in:
The screenshot three posts above yours mentions 9-directional movement, with or without a numpad.
I've heard about this game some time ago and just now i found out a thread about it existed on B12. PTW!
I was, uh, forgetting that Cardinal doesn't include the diagonals, but the rest of the point still stands - it would be nice if holding one direction, and hitting a diagonal/side key once didn't stop the held-down key from counting.
Where do i download this???? And if its not out when can i have it??? Is it going to be HTML5??!?!!? What are your demands you sick bastards!?!!?!
Wait... This isnt HTML5? It seems like it.
What libraries did you use?Wait... This isnt HTML5? It seems like it.
Does it? I wouldn't know, I'm not an HTML 5 person! It's actually Python, anyway :).
Good to hear guards are working. They're probbably second only to important NPCs in terms of needing a consistent timetable!
Sadness
The main reason why I think it's crucial for your game however, is that it allows some really awesome interactions. Don't address the lord by his proper title? instant rejection. What if the NPC asks you about your feelings on their rivals? you'll want to know that information and say the right thing. Use the proper greeting for that particular religion? gain a bit more leeway with your questions. Whilst that can be done by picking options, parsing is really easy and I'm absolutely positive it adds a solid layer of immersion. I'd strongly, strongly recommend it if you can.I doubt that parsing it actually is easy. The player could be start asking perfectly valid questions (from their perspective and even from the perspective of the designer) that the bot simply doesn't understand, because the player is using synonyms of words unknown to the bot. That's way more immersion breaking than an option system in my eyes.
I'd suggest instead a sort of chat bot for the user to converse with, maybe with some option prompts as you already have. I did this for a project I was working on and, whilst the rest of the game was awful, that worked very, very well.
Chat bots normally don't work well as the user can literally ask anything and the chat bot doesn't have a built in 'personality' (in fact, one that 'passed' the Turing test did have a built in personality of sorts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Goostman) so they seem lifeless. More than that though, with a game based chat bot, you're strictly 'in universe' - you don't have to worry about the bot not knowing things, as it should only know parts that are relevant to it. If you ask it a question it doesn't like, it can get irritated that you're wasting it's time without it seeming as though it's just covering up for a lack of sophistication.
I doubt that parsing it actually is easy. The player could be start asking perfectly valid questions (from their perspective and even from the perspective of the designer) that the bot simply doesn't understand, because the player is using synonyms of words unknown to the bot. That's way more immersion breaking than an option system in my eyes.
I also liked it perfectly well in the Realms of Arkania games.
If URR has places in which more than one language will be spoken a lot
I have a question unrelated to the last update: will there be more farms scattered around the countryside? Last time I played the map was surprisingly empty, consisting mostly of wilderness. The game's setting is based on the pre-industrial world, so shouldn't there be more farms and farmers? This little detail would make the game more immersive, at least for me.
Still following this intently! Keeps getting better. :)
I'll add a question to the mix: why must all major civilizations readily speak the "common tongue"? Might be interesting to have different languages across the world. It seems like a bit of a waste to ponder and implement all these learning methods only to apply them to minor dialects. Well, unless those dialects aren't really minor, and thoroughly colour the variant of the common tongue a given nation speaks.
Still following this intently! Keeps getting better. :)
I'll add a question to the mix: why must all major civilizations readily speak the "common tongue"? Might be interesting to have different languages across the world. It seems like a bit of a waste to ponder and implement all these learning methods only to apply them to minor dialects. Well, unless those dialects aren't really minor, and thoroughly colour the variant of the common tongue a given nation speaks.
Completely agree - I'd be disappointed if there aren't a number of main languages, especially as language is so tied into culture. Dialects are good and all, but there are very few dialects (at least in reality) that you'd have to actually learn from a book or a teacher.
I'd suggest that there be a relatively small number of major languages, and the player would know a number of them to start with (depending on their house). On top of that you'd have a lot of smaller ones for tribes and the like. Whilst it might be hard work at this junction, I don't think you need to go too far into making the other languages 'other' though - a simple substitution for English words would do and you could always improve on that if you wanted to later.
It will be interesting to compare in-game time to out of game- sometimes the player will go through a few months in a day, sometimes URR will collect dust on the hard drive as it worms it way back into your forebrain. There should be a easter egg if the two ever match up, IMO. There could be some other uses if you track it- I look at those faces you posted and I immediately think "yes, I should have to recall their features if I want to report them to the cops. OTOH, if i haven't played in 6 months? Then some handholding would be nice. I'm sure there's a few other cool things you could do with it.
Started rereading the blog, and possibly catch up with the current devblogging. It's interesting to see this go from low-fantasy to... even lower-fantasy? :P
I'm really impressed by you and your work on URR. Really amazing things here. Great Work!
I've been away for a looooooong time - could anyone give me a runthrough of the currently playable state of URR?
I can easily put 50+ hours into URR in half a week, if the content is there to be exhausted!
could Mark be the first person to have produced a human-readable, computer-generated novel...simply because, you, Ehndras, was willing to consume this content?
I can easily put 50+ hours into URR in half a week, if the content is there to be exhausted!
Be warned: I'm one of those annoying "talk to every single NPC, exhaust every single chat option, touch every object, read every description, do every mini quest, and generally explore all the lore" kind of guy. Yes, I have every single book ever made in Elder Scrolls in my in-game libraries, meticulously arranged by color, alphabetized, or by category. (depends on the shelf.)
As my best friend puts it, I'm that prick who stops and walks halfway across the map to loot that one random corpse or box that's probably got nothing useful. Then again, that's why I become rich early on (and am always encumbered - a derp)
Ahh, the things we writers do in games...
Since we're on the topic of NPCs, and I'm currently still catching up, will NPCs have their own personal set of beliefs and philosophy? I don't know how that would translate to gameplay, but it would be interesting to see some sort of a resurgence for the willpower and thought process for AIs mechanic of yore.
Assuming that you can tolerate the possible repetition of content, could Mark be the first person to have produced a human-readable, computer-generated novel...simply because, you, Ehndras, was willing to consume this content?
Right now, I'd probbably say no, unless you really, really like ghostly-empty planets in ascii.
After the next release, probbably, since the world comes to life.
When I can wade into beta-test? I read somehow in this thread, that first part of it finished, and now it's close to open testing... Or I miss somethink?
(Love to test AI system)
Heh
Will NPC's walk and talk?
Wow! It's so much cooler than DF!
I mean NPC's talking to players while they go about their shit, like you'd see in most cities say.
Could you have the player automatically track alongside the NPC and have their current location/direction of travel displayed at the bottom of the conversation window? "You are crossing to the street on the left". It allows for some fun stuff; talking to the wrong person without paying attention to your surroundings will get you robbed in a alley before you know it.
You can also do "the elevator pitch", where you have a very short window to interact convincingly. Hell, you could go full on Speed and try to catch up to someone so you can warn/talk/insult them.
That's ignoring all the benefits of talking and fighting.
holy hell how did i not PTW this yet
You could have a toggle for "listen to ambient conversations", where you walk slower, but are able to overhear snatches of conversation from people around you
Wow, those are some interesting names. The long set in the middle was utterly incomprehensible but the rest were things I could imagine myself remembering in play.
Pls include a pronunciation guide for those of us clueless about accent marks!
LOVE IT!!! URR is proving to be the next-generation DF, though of its own remarkably unique scope. :)
It doesn't, as I don't have the slightest idea how to do that and I don't feel like going back and making lots of changes, but it should never need it! I don't need to track anywhere near as much Stuff as DF does :)
My only response to Retropunch is that URR should beware of "scope creep". The more complicated the project, the more bugs would exist and the harder it is to fix it. It would be simple to implement in the short-term, but it will be difficult to maintain in the long-term.It's certainly an issue, although one I know Mark is really trying to get a handle on with rigorously planned releases. More than that though, my view on personality/mood is that it's one of those things that can be implemented in degrees, and is sort of 'anything is better than nothing' (as long as it doesn't break anything!). For instance, if there were only 4 moods (normal,happy, sad, angry for instance) that'd still be a huge improvement upon having completely blank NPCs.
Give some thought as to whether "Dialect" is the right word to use. If you don't do languages, you're envisioning variations upon a common language right? "Accent" makes more sense. Dialect doesn't really come into it when you're speaking a trade language.Trade languages i.e. pidgins don't have grammar. If that was the case, it would be *really* obvious in the demos posted here: they'd read like Engrish, or other highly ungrammatical English.
Pidgin and trade languages are distinct. Latin, French, English, those have been trade languages. Creole is just a occasional variant.
It makes little sense that a clan from the opposite side of the continent happens to speak the same first language as everyone else. Hence i assume trade/common language.
That looks really good! Pretty keen to see how it plays out. Natural language related computing has always fascinated me.
Give some thought as to whether "Dialect" is the right word to use. If you don't do languages, you're envisioning variations upon a common language right? "Accent" makes more sense. Dialect doesn't really come into it when you're speaking a trade language.
Declared intent is to not force the player to memorize how idioms vary, just intimate they are there. That's handwaving changing the actual syllables, i.e. dialect.
I think this gets down to the fact that dialects are a little bit of a confusing thing to be simulating. Whilst I *love* the idea of learning a 'dialect' in terms of 'being able to pass yourself off as a local' - it seems strange that a world would have a common language and so many wildly different dialects (unless that's part of the puzzle?!). If this was meant to simulate a trade language, that's fair enough - but then there isn't a great deal of point learning the dialects (as if you were a native, you'd just speak the mother tongue!).
I honestly believe that these should just be called 'languages' for now and treated as such. If/when real language learning becomes a thing then that can take over from this, but at the moment it does seem very confusing.
Regardless of this, I also think it'd be a good idea for dialects/whatevers to have common modifiers and greetings/goodbyes/standard parts. I feel like it'd give the user a lot of agency. If they remember to bow at the beginning of the conversation that'd definitely warm the NPC up, whereas not doing would anger them. Not using their full title might be a snub in some areas of the world, whereas in others it may be seen as something that is not said in public.
Whilst this could (like moods) be implemented in a very simple form and still be great fun, it could go a lot further: Not using a title might be seen as a public snub in court, which would gain you favour from their rivals, however not bowing might be seen as far too offensive for anyone.
A little birdie told me you have some interesting combat plans. It sounds like you're nearly there with your desire to weigh each other up and act accordingly so
I think this gets down to the fact that dialects are a little bit of a confusing thing to be simulating. Whilst I *love* the idea of learning a 'dialect' in terms of 'being able to pass yourself off as a local' - it seems strange that a world would have a common language and so many wildly different dialects (unless that's part of the puzzle?!). If this was meant to simulate a trade language, that's fair enough - but then there isn't a great deal of point learning the dialects (as if you were a native, you'd just speak the mother tongue!).It's completely realistic. Less than a century ago, German as spoken in far north Germany was 100% mutually unintelligible with German as spoken in far south Germany. Also, American English, British English,and Australian English are full-blown dialects right now, that are very likely to go mutually unintelligible within the next two centuries or so.
Insults are based on the beliefs of the insulter, not the insult-ee; so if someone from an imperialist nation insults someone and calls them a worthless pacifist, but that person is from a very pacifistic nation, they aren't going to be too badly insulted.
This makes me unreasonably pleased. I love games with little details like that.
I'll be mad if the POI bar will still be shorter than the other UI bars :).
t's completely realistic. Less than a century ago, German as spoken in far north Germany was 100% mutually unintelligible with German as spoken in far south Germany. Also, American English, British English,and Australian English are full-blown dialects right now, that are very likely to go mutually unintelligible within the next two centuries or so.
I've been commissioned to write a four-part series on qualitative procedural generation for Rock, Paper, Shotgun! Societies, practices, cultures, beliefs, and so forth, and how to integrate them into gameplay. I think one part will be going up each fortnight for the next three fortnights, but here's the first one. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/22/future-of-procedural-generation-1/
With that in mind, we might go closer to a URR universe which is dominated by dialects instead of languages!!
The comments themselves are also useful to read, since many of them act as a useful "corrective" to advocates of PCG lore. It's important to know a technology's weaknesses as well as its strengths.
Are some of the comments too long?
"I HATE CRIME, OH YES I DO, ESPECIALLY VIOLENT CRIMES. THEY ARE THE WORST. THOSE CRIMINALS ARE SO VIOLENT AND EVIL AND WRONG. WE NEED TO LOCK THEM AWAY, AND ALSO MAKE SURE THEY ARE SAFE AND SECURE IN THEIR PRISON CELLS, BECAUSE THE NINE GODS KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY ARE NOT SAFE AND SECURE IN THEIR PRISON CELLS."
It almost sounds like, well...Quote from: T3, Totally Not A Criminal"I HATE CRIME, OH YES I DO, ESPECIALLY VIOLENT CRIMES. THEY ARE THE WORST. THOSE CRIMINALS ARE SO VIOLENT AND EVIL AND WRONG. WE NEED TO LOCK THEM AWAY, AND ALSO MAKE SURE THEY ARE SAFE AND SECURE IN THEIR PRISON CELLS, BECAUSE THE NINE GODS KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY ARE NOT SAFE AND SECURE IN THEIR PRISON CELLS."
how close are you to the next release?
Could sentence complexity be affected by the profession of the individual? For example, a priest's sentences would have a higher chance of being complex while a peasant's sentences would be more blunt and simple.
Have you considered providing/accepting alternate tilesets or isometric view? I know you're keeping it close-sourced but if people contribute the sprites do you mind doing the code?
What ideas do you have about fail states? You're gradually deciphering a puzzle, so i wonder how you can make starting the process anew statisfying. I know you were considering time skips on failure; my question is how often we're gonna die. if it's thick and fast, i'd like to have maximum continuity so that i can run into the aftermath of my previous characters run amok. If it's very occasional but i'm still going to need 50 attempts, i won't mind so much about continuity since each character has established themselves but some callback would be nice beyond a gravestone.
Also, i demand some verbose NPC's do this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPmXmMpNuPU)
Great update and it's really coming together well. I still feel that it needs the NPCs to ask questions back - with how realistic the conversation is, it feels extremely odd to be having a one sided conversation. Even if it was little things ('what about you?') that'd be great, but it'd be even better if they asked questions that might have some bearing on relationships ('Are you a follower of the Light of Zarthon?' 'yes' 'well, let us say the holy chant of olivepesto together then!' and so on...)
Again I feel it's one of those things where you can do a little to get a big result ('what city are you from?' - allied city good, enemy city bad), and add more when it becomes worth while. You probably wouldn't want many questions as you probably wouldn't launch into a full blown back and forth with a stranger (and it might get annoying) but I feel that none at all becomes a bit strange.
Replies should be a bit less straightforward. You've got these cultural extensions that colour the speech, and your first example nails a tone; in general answers should be delivered stylishly like that. People love to be snappy. If they're being blunt, i don't think ellipses alone cut the mustard. Bolding/itallicizing important words would work; "I protect the manor of House Lopponama..."
I think either showing or narrating changes in expression can help too. I'll take a curt answer from the farmer if "he stares into the distance for a second" say.
NPC's should predict some questions. All your conversations namedrop frequently, and if your question indicates you don't know about that either they should explain of their own accord, depending on personality.
Excellent :D! Oh, totally, they will be asking questions back. Maybe next week, maybe the week after; we'll see how things play out. This weekend is totally free for URR coding, which is truly wonderful, and I'm looking forward to getting a real ton done. I totally agree, it's a fair easy addition, and one that shouldn't crop up too often in "general" conversation, but will make things way more realistic.
Olivepesto, olivepesto, olivepesto, olivepesto...
Ancient games like this (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-01-why-did-ancient-egypt-spend-3000-years-playing-a-game-nobody-else-liked) would certainly add personality.
[INDEPTH:VERY]
[DIFFICULT:MASSIVELY]
Is my prediction. But it would be pretty fun and flavoursome.
[INDEPTH:VERY]
[DIFFICULT:MASSIVELY]
Is my prediction. But it would be pretty fun and flavoursome.
Ancient games like this (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-01-why-did-ancient-egypt-spend-3000-years-playing-a-game-nobody-else-liked) would certainly add personality.somewhat OT, but I love the tale about the small clay pot in the mummy. I can imagine the conversation.
Thing is, you couldn't actually play them singleplayer unless Mark wrote AIs or something like that.
And I know very little about programming, but I know that AI is really bloody difficult, especially with chess/go.
Draughts might be an option: draughts has been solved and stuff, it's a bit simpler.
Words!
Is there an option to leave a pregnant pause in the conversation, i.e. you question someone a lot, they ask you one question, then you answer but don't ask anything else? As if you were trying to get them to ask you stuff or talk about something generally?
Also, if NPCs can ask questions, what about answering questions just with another question.
e.g.
"Where do you live?"
"Who's asking?"
Or: "Where are those soldiers going?"
"Why do you want to know?"
etc.
Chill man. If toady can get away with 2 year releases you can sure as hell miss a blog post ;).
Agreed, NJW. Lots of conversations are back and forth statements with implied questions.
This all looks great! I agree with NJW - I think a lot of this comes down to how you can influence the NPCs with replies and questions. As you may remember back to our conversational analysis courses, a question is a always a loaded interjection - there's never a 'neutral' question and I think that's important.
I also feel that, similarly to the second type of question (that only specific people can be asked from the start of the game), I feel that NPCs should only really ask you questions about stuff they're interested in. Similarly, they should ask more questions when they like you more and less when they like you less. All common sense stuff, but something I've never seen in a game before!
BTW I much prefer the first layout for replies (with the break between answer and the next question). Whilst the first one looks more 'natural' it's a bit harder to read and with so much conversation available, it'll be important.
Oh, and a less relevant question: Italo Calvino, yea or nay?
Only asking questions about stuff they care about; agreed, that makes a lot of sense actually - obvious now you say it, but I hadn't considered it. It'll also make conversaitons more meaningful, as it'll always boost conversations in topics that NPCs will know a lot about, i.e. a priest will ask you the most religious questions back, and combined with them already having the most to say on that topic, should play out really nicely. Re: the first/second option, people are saying both, but the "gap" option is winning, and I *think* I prefer it too...
Q: Will URR have sound?
A: Sound no, but music… maybe? Quite a few people have expressed interest in writing music for the game, so this might happen.
Jukedeck (https://www.jukedeck.com) is a website that can generate music on-demand based on criteria that you specify. It's free to use so long as you give them credit (though you can pay 99 cents per song for a royalty-free license if you don't like giving them credit).
Can't download this right now, but it's got 200 pages of comments and I can't figure out what type of game it is.
Why am I seeing 2 different graphic styles? Is it a small party game and if so why am I seeing references to armies? Is it just a different type of DF adventure mode?
Basically, sell this game to me.
Hey, on the violence thing...
All of those are great and all, but... No deviation? No one who doesn't like violence because they were raided, maimed, raped, lost loved ones in a war, some great big historical event? I mean, come on. Cue the angst!
Comma_adds ['Violence'] .append ('the final bastion of self-righteous ego')
Comma_adds ['Violence'] .append ('the realm of barbarism and mania')
Comma_adds ['Violence'] .append ('the bane of prosperous tranquility')
Comma_adds ['Violence'] .append ('final moment before thy dagger's fated kiss.')
Comma_adds ['Violence'] .append ('a means to keep the common man in his place')
Etc. Spice it up. :) Not everyone in the universe feels the same way, especially about something as profound as violence/war/etc.
Repetition - people will never say the same thing twice. If you ask them again, they'll say "I just told you that", or "Like I said, the answer is X", or whatever, and if again, they'll become more annoyed, and so forth, and will quickly just abandon talking to you altogether.
Does URR have a notes/journal system, then, for conversations? If asking again makes people annoyed?
It's okay if URR doesn't have a notes/journal system, because the player will just simply carry around a notepad and write down everything the NPCs says. ;)
(Or even just open up Notepad and then copy and paste the text regularly into the Notepad document.)
Also, for the armour synonym list (a bit sparse?) perhaps garb, kit, equipment, protection, defense, and gear may be applicable.
Great to hear about the repition - it'll definitely help keep the immersion.
I know you've been bombarded by questions, but I have a sort of question/request - would you consider doing a more technical blog post on libtcod/python? I believe you're probably the authority on the subject now, and it's a fantastic way for people to get into roguelikes and programming in general - I've got three friends into programming through the libtcod tutorial!
I was mainly just thinking in terms of some tips and tricks, map building and so on with a few snippets here and there as examples. I'd be very interested in reading some of the ins-and-outs, and I do believe it'd bring in a bit more interest - anything on python tends to!
Jesus Christ you are amazing. O.o.
I must commend your seemingly unerring passion into your project. Not many people can put that much energy consistently into anything. <3
Have you thought how to keep the player in touch with their favourite epochs? I know you want to move the world forward whenever we lose the game, and that's well and good. I'd like to have some kind of continuity for that one world i really loved playing in though. Maybe it should be possible to continue play in a world, but everytime you do it you have even less time to figure out the mystery?
As for the phrases, I'm guessing you've got blunt versions? :P
Your work and commintment are so so impressive. Have a great 2017!
Looks fantastic.
I especially love the way you're developing NPC Personalities - I honestly don't think it's been done before on an individual NPC level, and I can't wait to see it in action.
In terms of traits; will there be more 'individual' traits as well (like 'selfish', 'drunk', 'generous', 'talkative' etc.)? The ones listed seem mostly to do with their thoughts on certain issues rather than their personal quirks. I can imagine these may only properly effect gameplay later on (selfish vs generous shop keepers for instance) but it'd be interesting to see these more individual traits come in.
National Voting Rights
Here’s an interesting one – the question of national voting rights. At the moment when each nation generates, a die is rolled to decide whether women, men, or both are allowed to hold the throne (or whatever the equivalent of the “throne” is). It then considers who is allowed to join the military – if only one sex is allowed to hold the throne, then that sex will always be able to serve in the military, and sometimes the other one will be too; if either is allowed to hold the throne, then both will be allowed to serve (generally).
Yeah, from a medieval/renaissance time period perspective, allowing women in the military isn't particularly wise - hence why it was nearly never done.
Yeah, from a medieval/renaissance time period perspective, allowing women in the military isn't particularly wise - hence why it was nearly never done.
If your army has pretty much zero force multipliers, you just need large numbers of people to fight, hence you want as big of a population as necessary. If you have 1 in 4 children dying in childbirth (and a mother 1 in 100), you kinda need to make sure that you have women around to procreate and not fighting in wars and dying/being injured. Also, many women of young to middle age were pretty much CONSTANTLY pregnant during their life times, with a year or two apart at max making them not particularly effective soldiers.
I can imagine cultural/religious reasons allowing it/enforcing it, but for even basic time period accuracy it seems a bit odd for it to be a 50% chance. My main issue though is just that you'll be ending up with around 30% of civilisations having a woman leader with women fighting and men not. Again, whilst I realise it's not looking for historical accuracy, it's biologically not sensible.
Note that in URR's earliest posts there was stuff like Minotaur generals of armies and the acceptable number of squares for a dragon to take up being casually discussed. Even if it doesn't look that way, we are in the realm of high fantasy. I'd say it's acceptable to say childbirth isn't usually fatal in fantasyland.
I'd definitely say that a culture restricting only women to the millitary is very, very strange.
From many posts since then Mark has strongly re-situated it in a much more realistic setting and said that it is definitely not high fantasy. He's said a number of time that there won't be any magic or similar, and has on this forum (politely) rebuffed many people asking if there will be magic. As a caveat, there are many religions, and some may believe in magical powers, but that won't be something in game. At the very most, the artefacts that are at the centre of the game's quest may have some sorts of powers, but only in a vague sense (not, fireballs or whatever).
I was going to quote all the previous messages on this topic, but now I think it's easier to just give my general rationale/thoughts.
Basically: I'm trying to generate a world with major differences from our real world, within the realms of physical possibility: why restrict ourselves to what the real world has had? Why limit what can come up that way? That's just going to massively reduce the amount of interesting things the game can generate, and I'm very much against that. The idea that just because female soldiers might not be "as effective" as male soldiers (whether true or not) means civilizations wouldn't field them, implies everything that every culture does is "rational". And, I think, the history of culture demonstrates that every culture on earth does all kinds of things that aren't "rational" or "optimal", and I see absolutely no inherent reason why this would never happen. We have or have had cultures that kill a non-trivial number of their own children, infect themselves with diseases, hurt themselves or mutilate themselves in various ways, and so forth; cultures don't just do things that would be "best". I just think the game is just vastly more interesting this way, by allowing cultural ideas and preferences that didn't arise in the real world, but where there's absolutely no reason for those cultural ideas to not arise - as real-world cultures do far, FAR more striking things than some of the stuff that's in the game so far.
I was going to quote all the previous messages on this topic, but now I think it's easier to just give my general rationale/thoughts.Then don't be surprised at pushback when you intentonally implement a direct contradiction of "within the realms of physical possibility".
Basically: I'm trying to generate a world with major differences from our real world, within the realms of physical possibility: ....
It's not to do with effectiveness of troops or anything like that at all, it's to do with growth - it's never even vaguely rational to expose your main method of growth (and therefore civilisation's strength) to harms way. All the things like mass killing offspring and similar have been done with ( very twisted) rationality behind it - ONLY sacrificing your primary method of growth in battle just doesn't make any sense.Not quite true. The women of Sparta would sometimes contribute to its defense. Similarly, Shang Yang (a Chinese statesman) suggested that women be used to man (heh) fortresses and defensive fortifications, freeing up male soldiers for sorties; and while it was never adopted, the objections seem to have been cultural rather than practical.
It's not to do with effectiveness of troops or anything like that at all, it's to do with growth - it's never even vaguely rational to expose your main method of growth (and therefore civilisation's strength) to harms way. All the things like mass killing offspring and similar have been done with ( very twisted) rationality behind it - ONLY sacrificing your primary method of growth in battle just doesn't make any sense.Not quite true. The women of Sparta would sometimes contribute to its defense. Similarly, Shang Yang (a Chinese statesman) suggested that women be used to man (heh) fortresses and defensive fortifications, freeing up male soldiers for sorties; and while it was never adopted, the objections seem to have been cultural rather than practical.
You have to understand that in the ancient world, most soldiers, especially ones manning fortifications, would see little if any action. If you have a fortification that is basically impenetrable to direct assault (as most well-designed ones are), it makes little difference by any measure if it's "manned" by women or men - and if it falls, large numbers of women would die or be captured regardless.
It depends on the scale of the army somewhat. In the middle ages far fewer troops were fielded proportional to their population even in the worse wars, so perhaps co-ed armies would have a leg to stand on? I can easily envision a sufficiently secure culture encouraging it even if it's not as battlefield effective. In times of total war a case could also be made when things are desperate enough.
Women only armies just doesn't make sense when you've got muscly, replaceable men right there.
leadership_like: This trait refers to how much the NPC likes the leadership of their nation. This is not to say the leadership policy of their nation, as above – theocracy, monarchy, etc – but the individual personality/personalities of the person/people at the top. There are a lot of elements which go into this particular decision for each NPC, and as with the above set, I’m hoping to later tie this into the potential for social movements, conspiracies, and the like…
fellow_soldier_opinion: For those who are within the military, this determines what they think of their fellow soldiers. This varies by rank, by leadership, and by the individual histories of particular soldiers. I’m not quite sure what else this variable will affect yet – beyond a couple of possible conversation replies – but I think it could be a nice way to build up a sense of how different military forces function in the URR world.
What do you think of the leadership?
What do you believe your foreign policy should be?
What do you think of your culture’s art?
What are the religious policies of your nation?
How widely spread is your religion?
What is your job?
What is the history of this monastery?
In all of these cases the game can’t just take a default sentence and then vary it, but it has to instead select a sentence from a wide set depending on the data available, and then create that sentence anew each time. There are substantially more possible “base” responses for option questions than there are for all the basic sentences combined, which gives some idea of the kind of variation that some of these need to have. With this fortnight finished, I’ve now finished these off, and I’m very happy with the kinds of sentences they create – they’re varied, detailed, and will take far longer than the basic sentences before the player will ever come around to seeing the “same” sentences again.
I also went through the existing words, and decided to statistically bias some of them back towards slightly shorter variations, and therefor slightly shorter sentences, as a response to the feedback I regularly get about some of the sentences being too wordy. You’ll see the same in the earlier example, where we have some sets using the same short word twice to boost the chance of that word being selected (this is of course not an especially elegant way to do it, but let’s be honest: my programming is not known for its elegance). This should ensure that sentences will tend to be just a little shorter and a little less wordy, and I’m going to continue this trend of chopping out irrelevant words whilst maintaining sentence variety – though this is a tricky balance to strike.
It's strange [allowing women in the military] because such civilizations are preparing to win the Darwin Award. Keep in mind that before WWI almost all wars were limited wars, and it was nearly an annual thing before gunpowder (no extended peacetime).
That said, low fantasy is rife with dying or nearly-exterminated societies where this is appropriate.
Also, y'all vastly underestimate the human ability to procreate. Ask my grandmother's 20+ kids, or her 19 or so siblings and their 17-24 kids each. :P
If we discount all the deaths due to the 3 instances of Bubonic Plague(4th or 5th century, 12th century, 14/15th century I think it was? China, Byzantine Empire, medieval Europe), plus Spanish Influenza, Typhoid Fever, etc, we'd have a HELL of a large population.
Once I hope that i will see realise. It was a lot of times ago.
There is no hope, but a lot of great stuff is here.
Also, y'all vastly underestimate the human ability to procreate. Ask my grandmother's 20+ kids, or her 19 or so siblings and their 17-24 kids each. :P
Adolescent pregnancy
Fact sheet
Updated September 2014
Key facts
About 16 million girls aged 15 to 19 and some 1 million girls under 15 give birth every year—most in low- and middle-income countries.
Complications during pregnancy and childbirth are the second cause of death for 15-19 year-old girls globally.
Every year, some 3 million girls aged 15 to 19 undergo unsafe abortions.
Babies born to adolescent mothers face a substantially higher risk of dying than those born to women aged 20 to 24.
Birth rates
There has been a marked, although uneven, decrease in the birth rates among adolescent girls since 1990, but some 11% of all births worldwide are still to girls aged 15 to 19 years old. The vast majority of these births (95%) occur in low- and middle-income countries.
The 2014 World Health Statistics indicate that the average global birth rate among 15 to 19 year olds is 49 per 1000 girls. Country rates range from 1 to 299 births per 1000 girls, with the highest rates in sub-Saharan Africa.
Adolescent pregnancy remains a major contributor to maternal and child mortality, and to the cycle of ill-health and poverty.
URR, don't worry buddy. You've got this.
I'm still an avid fan and player, among many, of UnReal World - which has been developed on and off since 1992! No rush, man. Do what you need to do, and do what you can.
We players can get a little antsy sometimes, but as you age, you realize all good things come with patience.
Don't see where that is applicable, as its in response to a prior post which was likely already read by said party.
Been here for quite a few years, between this account and the last. :) Depending on time factors, I've realized edits may go completely unseen.
But aye, was nice discussing something interesting. Cheers!
This coming weekend will be to some extent the same, as although I'll be interviewing people at an esports event in Poland in the day time, my evenings are very clear.
This coming weekend will be to some extent the same, as although I'll be interviewing people at an esports event in Poland in the day time, my evenings are very clear.
Esports event in Poland! :D Where is the event? Is it in Warsaw?
I guess that does side-step the problem with alien-sounding conversation "I am a member of Earth. I enjoy to drink the water. In Earth we have an internal skeleton."
Retropunch, i wouldn't worry about communicating it to the player. You'll be surrounded by NPC's who are wearing something appropriate, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out.
If everything but the race fits and the cultures friendly, assume they're immigrants. If the dress is a little off, it's fashion. If it's 50/50, they're a seasoned traveler like a sailor. If it's a complete grab-bag - e.g a asian, wearing a turban, dressed like a cowboy wearing a star of david and tattooed with mexican gang signs - well. People will either point and laugh or you'll be able to sell tickets to all the people asking about your life story. Probably both. Personally, i'd pick the most important of the above (Mexican gang signs) and assume that's where there from.
In other words, you need a priority system and error checking. If all signs point to one culture, but they're famously xenophobic and you're the wrong race, eliminate it. Something very expensive counts for more as a cultural signifier, tattoes should be ranked higher still as they're permanent.
If they hate say your apparent religion but love your country, hate should be the favoured reaction. As for rank... one valuable item shouldn't be blinked at, but if half of your wardrobe is cheap and the other fabulous, they'll assume you're a thief. The same goes for someone with one conspicuously cheap item, like terrible shoes on a prince. Cheap jewelry can get a pass.
Tedium, gameplay, realism
But I have no idea why... no matter what this game is... I can't help but think of it as some sort of weird "cultural anthropology" game. Even the traps I am like "Oooh, now what is the context for this trap?" Mind you I mean it in the best of ways.
I guess it depends how deep the clothing system is, and how much the NPCs react to it. If clothing is just denoted by civ name, station and item (e.g. 'Azal noble trousers, Azal noble cloak and Azal noble turban') then it isn't a difficult one to do. However, if the people of Azal wear mostly red clothing, white head coverings and necklaces, then it might be a bit more difficult for the player to work it out. This depends on how uniform the NPCs are in their dress code, and how much latitude they give you in your dress code.
It fits in to Mark's request for suggestions - I'd suggest that the NPCs take anything that's over 50% of the attributes as you being from that nation/religion. However, I'd fluctuate the NPCs 'trust score' of the player accordingly - if you're trying to do something that requires you to be a noble/religious ordinary then you should be challenged if you're not 100% in the right garb.
The NPCs might also respond to any slip ups in conversation ('wait, if you're really Azal you should know that we celebrate the most holy pesto day on Friday! Heathen!') whereas if you're in 100% convincing you'd get ('friend, you surely wouldn't skip out on the giant pesto baptism ceremony? It'll be a rapturous event.'). Again, I'd flag this up clearly to the player before hand though.
Academia, especially early-career academic before one secures a tenured faculty position, is notoriously stressful and time-consuming.Yeah.
Firstly, I need to make time again for programming, starting now.Yush!
I’ve been trying to be a game scholar, and a competitive game-player, and a game designer, and a game writer, and all the other things in my life outside games. This is just too much.But this is how you prevent burnout! You flicker between many different interests so that each 'job' feels like a 'break' from the others. Like, if you're a professional poker player, and you're tilted, you do something else. Unfortunately, with real life, there's often only one... 'Life'. You can hop between games but you don't get to hop between lives and such. So yeah. When I'm annoyed with willful stupidity and nonsensical hostility (raging for the sake of venting) from competitive teammates then I make a Youtube video. When I'm tired of making Youtube videos I write erotica. When I'm tired of writing erotica I watch world politics. And when I'm depressed from reading and posting about world politics I go play competitively. #Hikki
Good to hear from you again, I missed your big post about academia last week, so I'm glad to hear you're getting yourself back on track (and that the game is still included in that track!)
How are you seperating types of questions up? I can understand things like "what is the disposition of the army" getting around on the grapevine that you're being nosy about them, but is there a level of low importance or personal questions this doesn't apply to? Surely asking for names a lot will just annoy or offend individual people if you ask repeatedly, not result in society at large refusing you their names, and the like.
This is like, when one of your favourite mangas gets an anime serialization. Waiting for that 0.8 season before doing the marathon. 8)
Maybe consider having tags, or keywords attatched to them, like
"What is your name" - personal, common
"What is the disposition of your country's forces?" - location, authority, unusual, millitary
"where is the government of this location" - location, authority, directions
"What do you think of the government" - personal, unusual, authority
"What do [Religion X] worshippers think about the government?" - political, religion, dangerous, authority
that sort of thing, then build how they react behind the scenes so if you ask a lot of political questions people will get suspiscious if word gets about, asking "dangerous" tag questions a lot might bring interest from third parties if rumor gets about that you're asking them, and so on.
just a few thoughts, might not be worth it in the end!
Maybe hide the dangerous tag. More fun if it slowly dawns on you that you sound like a seditionist.
Cheers, I came up with it while trying to think of how could you make it so that asking "how strong the army of Xlandia is compared to Ytopia" is denied if they're already refusing to answer "how large is the army of Xlandia" or "How strong do you think the Ytopians are" without just putting them into set categories
Just to let you know, I love you and those screens are sexy as all hell <3
Very interesting and brilliant work as always!
What plans do you have for NPCs to initiate their own conversations? Will NPCs be able to walk up to you and initiate a conversation directly?
If they can initiate their own, what types will there be? There are obvious ones where you're caught somewhere you shouldn't be or enter an office/etc, but what about more general conversations?
Damn, i missed these. Cheers
I was never able to properly follow this game, even though it seems pretty interesting. I remember reading somewhere that it will not allow you to do much apart from fighting and exploring, is that so? Is there any life-simulator element to it, like the ability to produce sth or trade? If not, are such features planned to be included?
It's a Renaissance mystery simulator, basically. Think around the world in 80 days but 300 years earlier.
Just to clarify, are these tags shown to players directly?
It's kinda the opposite way around from what you're thinking - there's relatively little fighting and a whole lot of life-simulation. From what we know so far, there isn't life-sim stuff like the Sims, but there's a lot of life being simulated in NPCs and how the world works. The main focus will be exploration and adventuring, plus puzzle solving (on a strategic scale, not like...block puzzles)
I'm sure/hope there will be a robust trade system in.
It's a Renaissance mystery simulator, basically. Think around the world in 80 days but 300 years earlier.
Yeah, that's basically what I've heard - a lot of mystery solving and interaction. That's great, but I hope it can be more of a simulation of the realistic world you can be part of. Like I can do something about those laws, be a judge maybe or something like that. A whole new level of gameplay and immersion.
Just to clarify, are these tags shown to players directly?
They are not! And I don't think they will be; as with most things, I want to minimise, in many ways, the level of extra-diegetic elements that point things out to the player, or note down "stats", things of this sort. To some extent that's impossible, but I do want to keep those to the lowest possible level.Yeah, that's basically what I've heard - a lot of mystery solving and interaction. That's great, but I hope it can be more of a simulation of the realistic world you can be part of. Like I can do something about those laws, be a judge maybe or something like that. A whole new level of gameplay and immersion.
Oh yes, I'm very concerned by the simulation of the world; however, I don't necessarily see the player climbing up the game's social structures especially, unless that could be beneficial to their pursuit of the central quest. I see the player character, to quote a reply I left on another forum a while back, "more as a roaming, ever-adapting traveller, rather than someone who will stay in one place long enough for something like that".
Re Tags: Really glad to hear - I was sure that they weren't going to be displayed, but I just wanted to check! That being said, I think it'll need to be quite clear to the player when they're being annoying. I'd also suggest that you never have it that repeating questions leads to more information - whilst that isn't 'realistic', it would otherwise mean a player would have to ask everything twice just to be sure they got everything.
Re Simulation: If possible, i'd really like to see the ability to take up a profession/role to some extent. This might be off from the main quest, but would allow you certain abilities depending on what you've chosen. For instance, if you're an accomplished merchant, then there will be obvious benefits when conversing with merchants and trading for items. Similarly, a career soldier will gain easier access to military matters. You'd need to flesh these out with actual tasks, but even if they were relatively simple ones (a soldier might assist with a raid, a merchant might have a trading quota) they'd make the world feel a lot more involved.
PTW, because I actually never did!
Mmmm, that's fair enough - and the model of how-that-might-work which you've just described feels very feasible to me. It would need to be professions or roles that can continue to deliver benefit to the player as they move around the world. I'm... not opposed to the kind of thing you've suggested, but I would have to think it through some more!
My suspicion is the game will happen on two small a timescale and too long a distance for you to meaningfully progress in your profession. All the examples you give don't seem that realistic as advantages to be gained.
Not that you can't earn brownie points with factions; but let's not give into scope creep.
I vaguely recall stuff about a time limit on the mystery, but that might be my imagination or old news.There was/is a time limit on the mystery, but it was never made clear (or hasn't been solidified) how long the time limit was, if the time limit ended the game or if there would be a mode/ability to play without it.
If you're an apprentice merchant of the Combine Honete Ober Advanced Mercantiles, you might get a boost to the friendliness of all allied tradesmen and merchants and the ability to charter land transport cheaply. After you've gotten to the rank of journeyman via a number of successful trades and small tasks, you gain access to the guild libraries, with maps which show you trading ports and outline customs in far flung places along with preferential rates. Becoming a master through earning a certain amount and completing more tasks would would give you access to loans and the ability to charter guild ships etc.
I'd imagine the tasks would be relatively similar to the main game mechanics - you know there's fantastic jewels for sale in a city, but not sure which. You find out its the city of Pesto, but realise they'll be hostile to selling to anyone outside of the great Pesto culture/civ, so you have to integrate well enough for them to think you're a wealthy Pestolian who has been abroad many years making his fortune.
I'd imagine the 'bonuses' would also align with the general game goals (charting ships, gaining intel etc), but also give you the ability to just roleplay. I think a great, great many people will be just as interested in roleplaying in the worlds created as actually following the main quest. Whilst you obviously have a strong narrative goal in mind, I feel that you can easily cater to all by adding in a few 'professions' to help people play it the way they want to.
There's also an interesting gameplay decision - does the player spend time building their influence in a guild in the hopes they'll help more than if the player just struck out on their own. If the artefact you're seeking happens to be in the hands of a mercantile faction, then it might make things much easier. If in a scholarly faction, then your time might have not been invested as wisely.
My suspicion is the game will happen on two small a timescale and too long a distance for you to meaningfully progress in your profession. All the examples you give don't seem that realistic as advantages to be gained.
Not that you can't earn brownie points with factions; but let's not give into scope creep.
I was under the impression that the time frame of the game was over many years, and that actions took 'real time' (so crossing an ocean would take a few weeks) - I could well be wrong though as the timeframes weren't certain last time it came around, and Mark hadn't decided on if there was going to be a hard cutoff point in the game.
I vaguely recall stuff about a time limit on the mystery, but that might be my imagination or old news.
From the discussions there were, I believe Mark was somewhere on the 'there will be a time limit, but it'll only apply for 'world actions' not just general walking around'. So if you travel across the ocean, it'll count as however many weeks that'd take but wandering around cities and the like won't have much of an impact on time.
I imagine it might also be possible/preferable to only have some parts that are time dependant, and others where it isn't.
Speaking of long lists of words, my own game has made yet another switch, this time to Python. One of the ideas that keeps niggling at me is having procedural languages. Python lends itself very well to this since it's already used for analysing real languages :) I guess I'll work my way up from phonemes to syllables and then to words, and word order...
That's looking really impressive!
However, a few things:
Whilst it's an almost unbelievable improvement over every other games conversation system, it still feels as though you're interrogating the NPC rather than just having a conversation. Part of this is because the NPC isn't asking anything back, and part of it is because the player doesn't respond to what's been said before. If it was possible to apologise for a previous question (which might relax tensions/raise opinion back up, but only to a certain limit) or thank them for telling you etc. it would help a lot.
I understand there's a gameplay balance in terms of that the player might find adding in random platitudes and whatever slightly tedious, and it might be that if you get a positive response, you automatically prefix the next question with a list of affirmatives ('interesting', 'thank you for telling me that', etc.) These could be randomly put in, and maybe only trigger if you started asking about a previous question group from the last question. That would therefore mean you could add something like 'thank you for telling me about the armour of your people, could you tell me about how many artefacts your civilisation holds?'
Secondly, some of the word orders are a bit strange - 'What manufacturing quality is the armour you at the moment have' doesn't really sound right. Same for a few others.
Lastly, in the question about armour, the NPC says he doesn't have any armour and then responds with the armour type. Would it be possible to block off that line of enquiry to the player if they'd already responded to say they don't have whatever it is?
Nice! Looks really cool, though the "I don't want to give an answer to that enquiry" spam is a bit awkward.
One little suggestion I have is that an NPC might sometimes repeat the self like
"For the last time, I have already told you that <Answer>, stop wasting my time"
or thereabouts, as a final resort before ending the conversation. This would be more likely if the NPC wants to still continue the conversation but is exasperated by you asking the same thing over and over.
(Also has the gameplay mechanic of letting the player see a response again if they can't find the original answer in the long conversation, but at the penalty of annoying the NPC)
Edit: Also maybe some minor confusion if you ask things twice, like "Huh? I just said it was..<blah>" before the "you're wasting my time moron" kicks in
Good to hear things are going well!
Re: clunky phrasing: I guess in the end it's largely a matter of just seeing what works best in the most situations
Have you considered using different fonts for different languages/accents? Maybe the same 3 fonts for upper/lower/middle class, with the option to toggle a custom font for each language instead? I know you want the diction to stand for itself but it's easy to say pretty verbose stuff in a pretty brummie way.
Got any thoughts on group conversations? Can the NPC's chat amongst themselves?
Will the game note how voices sound?
The updates are keeping my interest piqued!
“[mercyears]” refers to how long a mercenary has been a mercenary (that is “merc years”, not “mercy ears”!);
About the earlier suggestion of joining major/minor factions/guilds/etc, a beautiful idea.
However, to prevent abuse (or just shenanigans), itd make sense that joining any faction would get you a negative to factions who happen to not like them ;)
I would LOVE to see this game turn more into a sandbox RNG open-world experience where you can choose to play in "free mode" and just do whatever the hell you want. I know every dev wants some sort of "point" to the game, but to be honest... Replay value is a huge thing, and allowing a sandbox options opens the door to so many players who would otherwise not find much interest in the game.
Me, for example. I'll definitely try out the main story schtick but once that gets boring, I can put in thousands of hours into just wandering the world, building up my characters' backstories, writing RP AARs about it on forums/reddit, watching the world revolve, and getting in with my hardcore crafting addiction.
...Speaking of, funny how many people are obsessive crafter/hoarders on Bay12 o.O That little poll thread we have running is a massive list of people who love to make and acquire random junk. :P
On this general point...I find it baffling how many large games do not offer an open "free roam" game mode either as some sort of bonus for beating the game or just a type of mode you can play.
Finish 0.8 damnit!
Thank you for the update! Hope Canada treats you well, and you fully recover without problem.
Glad to hear you're getting better! And I like that book cover!
Give me updates... >:(
About the earlier suggestion of joining major/minor factions/guilds/etc, a beautiful idea.
Agreed, definitely something I want
However, to prevent abuse (or just shenanigans), itd make sense that joining any faction would get you a negative to factions who happen to not like them ;)
Also, agreed
I would LOVE to see this game turn more into a sandbox RNG open-world experience where you can choose to play in "free mode" and just do whatever the hell you want. I know every dev wants some sort of "point" to the game, but to be honest... Replay value is a huge thing, and allowing a sandbox options opens the door to so many players who would otherwise not find much interest in the game.
Me, for example. I'll definitely try out the main story schtick but once that gets boring, I can put in thousands of hours into just wandering the world, building up my characters' backstories, writing RP AARs about it on forums/reddit, watching the world revolve, and getting in with my hardcore crafting addiction.
...Speaking of, funny how many people are obsessive crafter/hoarders on Bay12 o.O That little poll thread we have running is a massive list of people who love to make and acquire random junk. :P
I... am still not sure how I feel about this idea! Of course, I just need to finally get 0.8 out first and then take stock of what on Earth I should do and where I should go from here, so let's not get too far ahead, but... I'm still, personally, inclined away from the pure sandbox option. But we'll see. One step at a time :).
any news on this?
On this general point...I find it baffling how many large games do not offer an open "free roam" game mode either as some sort of bonus for beating the game or just a type of mode you can play.
Just strip the main quests/forced events/time limits/etc and plop the player down to roam.
I think think free roam is great as a reward for beating the game, but I know a lot of devs feel that free roam mode will ruin the intended experience. I tend to agree with that, as a lot of people will try that, exhaust their enthusiasm and then never get to the 'best' bit.
Do you plan on letting the player create something (like opening a workshop or sth) or pursue a profession (like a trader, lawyer or a priest) and interact within the existing economic, legal or religious system and perhaps changing it to some degree?
Judging by his last post on his site, everything's gonna be moved to a new flashy site and i doubt he'll keep posting here.
Hurry up I need something to sink my teeth into.
Having read the update from April, I just wanted to wish you all the best and hope that you find time/energy to continue developing this incredibly ambitious project.
I'm very glad to know you're health is getting better, that's the most important thing.
Firstly, 0.8 is back in development,YES!
YES!
The text in the book sample was somewhat weighty for my unacademic mind, but I found the topics covered to be quite interesting?
if there is a 0.9, I’ll return and fill in the blanks then with a much smaller release.
All seems very impressive as usual!if there is a 0.9, I’ll return and fill in the blanks then with a much smaller release.
It sounds as if 0.8 may be the last release we see of URR? This would be a real shame for a number of reasons, especially as I think you're only a very short amount of work (especially compared to what you've done) away from having a game for the history books.
Nice to see that you're able to pick this up again!
Greetings from the monastic nation of Ghofonma.
Firstly, that's incredibly kind of you :). Re: future releases, I'm not sure - if I do, they will be SMALL. Like, say, 0.9 would be just adding graphics for weapons, armour, plants and a few other things, and some more conversation options, say. Nothing more. Then if there was a 0.10 it would be equally small. I haven't made a decision yet - I just need to get this out first and then take stock! There are also hopefully some good changes going to happen in my life in the next 6 months (fingers crossed) which could, COULD, free up more time.
I would argue that this isn't necessary. There's enough of a fanbase (such as "the two of us and that guy in the corner" can be called a fanbase ;) ) that are happy to play follow-the-devblog for decades to come. The plan is there on the page, we know an actual gamey game will occur eventually if progress continues. The devblog shows that something is happening and the occasional release featuring more stuff helps to remind us that we're not crazy (not entirely, anyway). Mark is a visibly active person on the Internet, not some faceless corporation promising Half-Life 3.Firstly, that's incredibly kind of you :). Re: future releases, I'm not sure - if I do, they will be SMALL. Like, say, 0.9 would be just adding graphics for weapons, armour, plants and a few other things, and some more conversation options, say. Nothing more. Then if there was a 0.10 it would be equally small. I haven't made a decision yet - I just need to get this out first and then take stock! There are also hopefully some good changes going to happen in my life in the next 6 months (fingers crossed) which could, COULD, free up more time.
Glad to hear you're not thinking of abandoning it completely! If you did find time to do future releases, I'd really suggest some sort of...gamifaction of it - even if it was something as straightforward as 'find the 10 secret relics hidden around the world' which you could find through clues in conversations etc. It wouldn't need to even have proper quest giver NPCs or the like, you could just have them as an 'achievements' screen (visit the 5 temples of Ghof, find the 10 secret relics, make contact with the Ghofona tribe...) which would get ticked off once you'd achieved them.
As it looks from my perspective, you obviously had all sorts of incredible (and ambitious!) plans a few years back, and at the time it made a lot of sense to concentrate on the world building and the mechanics as you were planning pretty much the most detailed sim ever created, and so there was no point in doing 'quests' and the like because of all the potential for natural, interlocking mechanics and the like. However, as that's no longer really on the table in the same way (which is completely understandable) then I'd hate to see it fizzle away due to it not really having any goals/things for the player to do - I think this is a real risk because as much as people will enjoy wandering around the world, it's often difficult to really get absorbed without any sort of purpose (regardless of how basic that purpose is).
Regardless, can't wait for 0.8!
I would argue that this isn't necessary. There's enough of a fanbase (such as "the two of us and that guy in the corner" can be called a fanbase ;) ) that are happy to play follow-the-devblog for decades to come. The plan is there on the page, we know an actual gamey game will occur eventually if progress continues. The devblog shows that something is happening and the occasional release featuring more stuff helps to remind us that we're not crazy (not entirely, anyway). Mark is a visibly active person on the Internet, not some faceless corporation promising Half-Life 3.
I follow Aurora 4X, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and URR. In some ways it's much easier to be invested for the long-term when updates are years apart.
So, please do as you think best, Mark (and let us know if you decide to throw in the towel, of course). But know that some of us don't need to be hooked on "gameability". We've already got one madman providing that for us in Toadyone.
I think the most fulfilling achievements are the ones that affect the world. Going down in history for killing a monster, fighting for territory, upgrading or destroying structures, or having my name and achievement written down in public. Dwarf Fortress's death and retirement mechanics are really fascinating, inspired by Angband tombstones. Being a founder of something and coming back to see it still there is also really cool. In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.
In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.
Glad to hear you're not thinking of abandoning it completely! If you did find time to do future releases, I'd really suggest some sort of...gamifaction of it - even if it was something as straightforward as 'find the 10 secret relics hidden around the world' which you could find through clues in conversations etc. It wouldn't need to even have proper quest giver NPCs or the like, you could just have them as an 'achievements' screen (visit the 5 temples of Ghof, find the 10 secret relics, make contact with the Ghofona tribe...) which would get ticked off once you'd achieved them.
As it looks from my perspective, you obviously had all sorts of incredible (and ambitious!) plans a few years back, and at the time it made a lot of sense to concentrate on the world building and the mechanics as you were planning pretty much the most detailed sim ever created, and so there was no point in doing 'quests' and the like because of all the potential for natural, interlocking mechanics and the like. However, as that's no longer really on the table in the same way (which is completely understandable) then I'd hate to see it fizzle away due to it not really having any goals/things for the player to do - I think this is a real risk because as much as people will enjoy wandering around the world, it's often difficult to really get absorbed without any sort of purpose (regardless of how basic that purpose is).
Regardless, can't wait for 0.8!
Aww, damn. That's kind of depressing. If you ever have to completely stop working on the game, or if it becomes completed, will you ever open source it so that the community can add what was never able to be finished?
I would argue that this isn't necessary. There's enough of a fanbase (such as "the two of us and that guy in the corner" can be called a fanbase ;) ) that are happy to play follow-the-devblog for decades to come. The plan is there on the page, we know an actual gamey game will occur eventually if progress continues. The devblog shows that something is happening and the occasional release featuring more stuff helps to remind us that we're not crazy (not entirely, anyway). Mark is a visibly active person on the Internet, not some faceless corporation promising Half-Life 3.
I follow Aurora 4X, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and URR. In some ways it's much easier to be invested for the long-term when updates are years apart.
So, please do as you think best, Mark (and let us know if you decide to throw in the towel, of course). But know that some of us don't need to be hooked on "gameability". We've already got one madman providing that for us in Toadyone.
I agree that's the case if Mark is planning to continue development (even if in the long term) - however, if he's going to pretty much finish up (which it's unfortunately sounding like) and there won't be an actual gamey game at the end of it, then I'd encourage something to wrap it all together.
This is mainly because otherwise URR will be relegated to 'the game that almost was', rather than something that's a finished game. I'd imagine a finished product would be more helpful to Mark (in terms of him having a fully released game under his belt) and get the game a wider player base which is always good for everyone. Other than the DF crowd, I feel most of the gaming community would say 'this is a fantastic world but...what do I do?'.
Obviously if Mark ever wanted to come back to it, he could rip out any quest stuff he didn't like or incorporate it into some sort of 'explorers guild' without too much trouble.
I think the most fulfilling achievements are the ones that affect the world. Going down in history for killing a monster, fighting for territory, upgrading or destroying structures, or having my name and achievement written down in public. Dwarf Fortress's death and retirement mechanics are really fascinating, inspired by Angband tombstones. Being a founder of something and coming back to see it still there is also really cool. In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.
Certainly agree and all of those would be good, but quite a lot of work to implement I imagine. I feel that a quick list of world 'achievements' (which could just be going to all the xyz's or picking up x of y) that you could tick off would be enough to give those that want a bit of guidance whilst they enjoy the fantastic world that's been created, whilst also being easy enough to implement.
It all boils down to how much time/willpower Mark has left to continue URR - a decent trade system would be just as good, as would all sorts of adventure-y things which would give the game focus, but my main fear is that such a fantastic achievement as URR already is gets lost to the realms of 'unfinished games' just because it didn't have anything structured for the player to do, and I feel that's what the wider gaming community will see it as.
In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.
#goals
Good luck on URR, been keeping up for a while!
I appreciate the sense of exasperation that Wof As Pofonma felt as a stranger walked up to him and greeted him ceaselessly
Looking really good!
It looks pretty cool
I actually hadn't know that the game could be set in 1700 or have firearms. That is interesting.
Wow!
New bugs always replace old ones! You know it’s working when the new bugs don’t make everything explode, heheh.
Impressed by the update, this is such a long and fascinating project
Neat. I live in Canada and my best friend is in Australia. (We don't meet up often.)
Always love reading the updates!
Posting to watch, you are awesome btw.
Very nice. I liked the bugs about the piggy-back guards and the clerks who decided they were nobility.
Hi everyone - I have some awesome news to share this month which isn't completely game-dev-related, but is pretty life-changing for me. More URRpdates next month!
https://www.markrjohnsongames.com/2019/07/23/new-job-new-country-new-continent/
Congrats! I used to study at UNSW. Unisyd is pretty elite and full of smart people. Great step forward.
Wow, congratulations what an achievement and opportunity!
Nice one Mark, enjoy down under we’ll miss you in blighty.
Great to see that taking ships is added!
As a question, the screen says "Ships which are in right now", does this mean eventually you'll be able to book ships in advance? A timecrunch within a timecrunch if you booked an expensive passage, perhaps...
Well shit, I was single when this thread started. I’ve been married for a month now. It feels strange when I put it that way. I haven’t stuck with a project for that long, that’s for sure. And I’m glad you have!
September 2, 2020 at 2:19 am
Yeah, there is some Windows 10 issue that needs resolving, which is something I’m looking into at the moment.
Googling around, last i noticed was early september in the comments of this article :
https://www.markrjohnsongames.com/2020/08/10/an-update-for-strange-times-iii/QuoteSeptember 2, 2020 at 2:19 am
Yeah, there is some Windows 10 issue that needs resolving, which is something I’m looking into at the moment.
I want 0.8.
We all want it.
Well shit, I was single when this thread started. I’ve been married for a month now. It feels strange when I put it that way. I haven’t stuck with a project for that long, that’s for sure. And I’m glad you have!
According to his personal blog, Mark suffered a head injury and consussion sometime last year. Part of his recovery was limiting screen time, which naturally limited the time he could spend coding URR and responding to forums threads.
Still, in the latest post he says he's gotten much better and to expect some kind of news on the URR front this month.
If you're reading this, Mark, I'm happy everything worked out and you're getting better! I hope you like it down under there in Australia!
Hello,
Someone knows something about what’s going on, if something is going on ?
It seems that the author fortunately recovered from his health problem, that's great.
He also focused october into a lot of bugfixing work on URR as you can see from all his blog posts this month :
https://www.markrjohnsongames.com/blog/
Wow
Congratulations on the release!
Great !
Congratulations for all the work done there.
Just WOW!
I didn’t try it yet, but i’m amazed.
I followed your first blog post years ago when it was only a concept.
In the meantime, me, i did "nothing" hehe...
I hope to see a Linux PC version soon too !
Amazing! It's been a long time coming, glad to see you finally made it to a point where you were happy with the world!
Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this over what's been to my knowledge a difficult and busy few years for you.
So, can you do anything besides exploring?
Ever since your paper on procedural game narrative (I believe that was the topic? I honestly read it years ago) wherein you used DF as an example, I have been interested in your own attempt at game-making and an avid follower of this forum thread. Congrats on the release! Creating a feature-complete game is impressive, and to see a project as unique as this come to fruition is simply awesome.
So. . . what next? :P
Hey, awesome! Looking forward to checking out all you've done with it!
Awesome, congratulations on the release!
I am excited to see all the features I had seen written about in your dev logs in a playable game. I am planning to stream it sometime in the next week in my first play on this version.
I honestly don’t know if it’s actually fun te play, but this rogue-like is excellent to look at, one of the best i’d say (ie, i love Cogmind aesthetics too)
i have not read through the entire thread but i have two questions
1. Is Alchemy a thing in URR
2. Where do i download this?
I don't think URR has magic.
like historical mystery novels, I've no interest in reading it :P
Early in development URR was a lot of things and looked more like Incursion than the culture sim it is now.
Oh, very nice! Coins are always an important way of learning about culture... one way or another :D
... so does some of it just outright blind you or somethin', or is the effects of drinking it all the same? How bad can the bad hooch get?
Also, if the designs can't generate skulls, I'm afraid the procgen has failed, in this case. I didn't see any skulls in the example images! Randgen booze isn't booze unless some of them have skulls on the label.
... so does some of it just outright blind you or somethin', or is the effects of drinking it all the same? How bad can the bad hooch get?
Also, if the designs can't generate skulls, I'm afraid the procgen has failed, in this case. I didn't see any skulls in the example images! Randgen booze isn't booze unless some of them have skulls on the label.
Haha, I'm not sure about effects just yet! 0.9 is focused on items, trade, money, buying/selling, these sorts of things, so implementing them as objects is the first thing. And ha! Touche. Maybe that can be a super super rare generation, only one alcohol type per generated world...
Will a wiki for this game ever be released?
Those proc shields are very nice. Don't see enough decorated shields in media, developers are obsessed with the "boards nailed together and exposed" aesthetic" or they're shiny spiky metal (haha)
Man, the stuff you do with ascii is nothing short of art. Always looks so good!
Great update, Mark! I'm overjoyed to hear that you've been having fun with this massive ol' project again coding for 0.9.
Do you have a "Feature plan" for what you want to achieve for that 1.0 play release? Or is it still too early to say as you work on .9?
Additionally with the addition of working currency and trading, It might be interesting to hear about coins, how they're generated, what kind of identifying marks specific currencies might have. (Like, do they have minting years/ ruler names on them? That's always something fascinating)
Interesting stuff! Left a comment on the blog about my thoughts on "clock types" and some sparse ramblings on ways in which they can interact with the player's actions without being infinitely extensible.
Really interesting stuff! You gotta love these ships and shipping routes, and im glad to see a fleshing out of the uses of money (And conversion costs!).
One thing I'll note about the ships however is that they seem to fall into "dwarf-fortress-itis" in their naming schemes. "The <adj> <noun>" and "The <Noun>'s <noun>" appear a lot in your examples. Is this just some coincidence from a small sample size? The names of, say, towns or people seemed a lot more widely varied / culture dependent.
I don't know if ships being named after people/saint(or godly) figures/places is plausible in URR, but its extremely common in real historical shipping, where a majority of ships often only have single-part names (Ie:Antellope or Messenger or Margaret rather than all being ie Fierce Antelope, Holy Messenger, or Solid Whale)
Food for thought, but I'm always excited to see your work anyway.
Amazing stuff!
I'm in awe at the procedurally generated working pocket watches, my goodness.
That's an impressive collection of procedural graphics, fantastic work !
Still havn't found time to try the latest releases but I am always very happy to see screenshots because they are so damn beautiful ! Really love the graphic style.
This and the buying/selling information are very interesting!
Nice update, accumulation of money is always a good goal :)
I'm also happy to hear that you have concrete plan towards 1.0, which means I only need to wait three or four years for 1.0! (which honestly isn't too long in game development)
Looks amazing. I'll have to try understanding how to play again.
I guess computers have no taste, if they threw fits about generating leeks. :D
My goodness! It's been a very long time coming, and it's more than welcome to finally arrive! Cant wait to check this out, thanks for all the cool progress updates so I know what to check out too :P
Sorry to ask such a bloody silly question - but is there a 'how to' or 'beginners guide' to playing URR?
It looks astonishing and I've followed the development since page 1 of this thread, and now it looks like a great time to jump in I'm a bit daunted!
Huh, I'd forgotten about this game.
Not really my thing I think, but the procedural generation always seemed impressive.
Just wanted to say that the ascii art you produce is, by far, the best I've ever seen - those books are gorgeous!
Just wanted to say that the ascii art you produce is, by far, the best I've ever seen - those books are gorgeous!
This comment makes me wish this forum had an upvote mechanism, rather than me having to make a "ditto" post.
I definitely like the new resource consumption mechanics - Being well-prepared for an expedition really helping with expeditions but not strictly required if you cant manage to source a good bit of kit & arent going into too much danger.
I think the systems as stated also have good potential for tweaking down the line for balancing / adding "extreme" conditions to encourage extra preparation / purchases, even if that's not currently in scope (Compass reducing the travel-slowing effect of a theoretical "fog" condition for example, or "blizzards" increasing Equipment usage while climbing to the mountainous location of the sought treasture...)
Putting off book content generation in order to ensure that you don't feel under any time crunch so that you can do it justice is a good idea I think.
Can't wait to see what other interesting things await!
the navigational resource system sounds amazing, and the items are gorgeous as well. I am curious on if there would be a system of gaining familiarity with a location to make travel easier, or hiring local guides?
I think I saw this update on the blog but extra thoughts:
I think the new fountain style is a real improvement, but even just the shading on the arrow butt has a great deal of value.
Being a university student with just enough money/supplies to begin definitely makes more sense than being the scion of a noble house! I think that's an aspect that URR's sorely needed for "adventure initiation" until now.
The (Exciting-sounding) religious artifact recovery concepts sound amazing. Something about the idea of being contacted by a priest who tells you that his religion's sacred icon is being auctioned in a rival city in thirty days just strikes me as such a "call to adventure" style thing, you know? It could even be tied with the religious artifacts thing, with them always taking other religion's artifacts off your hands, but offering less money than a private sale and offending said religion more in return. The line between archaeology and tomb-robbing was always a thin one classically...
Thanks for another great update Dr Johnson
The level of amazing is through the roof !
The amount of thought and work put into this is as always really impressive.
Tons of good work there, wow.
Beautiful ASCII. Better than I remember from TOME 2 and ADOM, although hopefully *some* improvements have been made in the last few decades.
Just skimming through but looks like some good stuff! Fixing ooold bugs has gotta be satisfying
Will you add supernatural monsters to the game? One's that you can hunt down, or some that can turn you into a supernatural?
I'm reminded that city folk don't know what Cows look like, so Supernatural creatures are overkill...
Exciting! The adventure finally begins
Exciting! The adventure finally begins
Yes!!
Exciting indeed. I keep nagging you on your blog about this, but I might as well here too ;D
Any love for treasure maps, or are any of these quests you mentioned in your previous post implemented in any sort? Not as a critique but just to try to apprehend the state of things. I've tried just exploring the world a bit but it's hard for me to get engrained without some sort of "goal" to work towards, mechanically, anyways.
Either way it looks almost like a whole new game compared to 0.9 with the survival stuff, and 0.9 was a whole new game compared to 0.8 with trading and what not, so from a game design standpoint being able to drop updates like you are that make each iteration of your game feel completely different is pretty exciting and fascinating.
Is 0.11 going to be mostly books or will we see more "quest" elements and such? Great work as always :)
Exciting! I'll have to give it a good go this weekend.
I'll say, your artwork is outstanding.
awesome to see this project still chugging along. I recall how you had written academic-level essays on game design, IIRC something about virtual worlds and simulation? anyways have you had time to write anything else in recent years?
Loving the rise of real interaction in the game!
The breaking-open system is fascinating, do you think there'll eventually be an equivalent for world objects like breaking open altars or tearing down tapestries to reveal secrets?
Also, will NPCs ever have a reaction to witnessing item destruction?
Every time I check on this game the ASCII gets more beautiful...
Mostly commenting on here so I remember to check back on this fascinating project.
I tried the game for the first time ever and had a great time stumbling through a city, farm and a graveyard. I was unsuccessful at trading a book to the neighboring civilization and after marching across a desert into a third city, I heard the sounds of money being counted, but the game repeatedly saved and quit as I tried to walk through the bank doors. But I'm not deterred by that, it's kind of the nature of the beast with these type of games that some things get generated that don't sit well with the game.
Saw this blog post and came to say that not only are the artefacts and containers looking great, but looking at how the systems are functioning under the hood is also always fascinating!
Thanks very much for the update!
Fancy fancy! Is the symbol graffiti there generated as well? Might be interesting if it means something in the world... :p
Oh ! I followed you yearrsssssss ago, but i thought you stopped. Very happy to see you are back in the project and well, too !
URR's new crowns are sure looking amazing! I imagine it wont be all that long before you can blunder into a room full of nobles and look over at one to suddenly realise he's wearing a crown and isn't pleased to be interrupted haha
Hey! I'm sorry if this is a very basic question, but I couldn't find the answer to it in the guidebook or on the internet.
It's mentioned in the conversations tab that the player can wake up sleeping NPCs, but how does one actually do that? Attempting topeak just results in a "That person is asleep..."
Thanks for the reply! Also, apologies for a part of my question being crossed out; I didn't realize square brackets with an "s" inside caused that :)
Ia Ia!
Is there a minimum age to which the player's expected death date can fall? It would look a bit odd if the message for "you're about to die in your twenties because you drank 500,000 bottles of booze" is still "as you get older." ;p
Those keys look great! I'm repeating myself, but your ASCII artwork just really just next level.
I'll be excited to see if, indeed, you can. Because it sounds like a hard problem! ;)
Usually games with a roguelike structure eventually get broken down by a motivated enough player who will start to recognize all the distinct elements of the generation. Unexpected things can happen, but often not in a way the developer could have foreseen or accounted for, which doesn't seem ideal for puzzles which should ideally make sense and be solvable.
I'm not aware of anything like that. URR is a long road from being complete still.
The latest major releases, 0.9 and 0.10, introduce currencies, procedurally-generated items, trade, and ship-board travel. 1.0 is coming soon - watch this space!
Out of curiosity, have you played the game "The Case of the Golden Idol" that released this year? I have a feeling that, given the direction of Ultima Ratio Regum, that you would enjoy that game a good deal because it touches on very many similar elements that you're trying here with this game.
I wanted to try this game but I read that the complete version is coming out soon? Does anyone know when that would be? Days? Months?
Already stuck :(
How do I buy things? Also, any recommendations on what to do first?
Yeah, there are still many things that are on the road map. Recent update does say next version is going to add procedural puzzles that require world travel for completion, so I guess it's going to be first version that actually introduces campaign objective to strive towards.
Ah yes I am at a shop. I mean when I go to purchase something I press Enter and it highlights it, but I don't see a way to finalize the purchase?