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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 578229 times)

Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5790 on: September 03, 2016, 04:32:16 am »

Spoiler: That one, huh (click to show/hide)

Well, you're in the right thread. Guess you'll be starting the next Church of Misaka. Have fun with that, don't forget to dodge the supersonic pennies.
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Kot

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5791 on: September 03, 2016, 07:49:54 am »

why not submit to allah, tho

or bow to the many aspects of krishna

or sacrifice to your ancestors in a household shrine

or work for enlightenment

or follow the tao te ching
I propose a much better alternative - ALL HAIL THE IMMORTAL GOD-EMPEROR OF MANKIND.
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NRDL

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5792 on: September 03, 2016, 06:02:54 pm »

Okay, I've probably asked this question before, but I can't be bothered going through my post list to find when I posted in this thread.  For any actual religious people on this forum: what does faith feel like?  Is it possible to describe the feeling of belief that goes beyond the intellectual and maybe the emotional, or whatever other definition you have for faith?

I've always always always been curious about this, the definition of faith and what constitutes it has always bothered me.  For all I know, I'm setting far too unrealistic standards for belief in a higher power, by other people's standards my acceptance of the teachings of religions might already make me a believer.  Personally, I think I still have a lot of doubt, and that doubt doesn't just go away from a feeling, it has to be mentally worked over, which really reinforces the idea that I've always had trouble believing in things I can't see.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5793 on: September 03, 2016, 06:07:15 pm »

I've asked some RL people this before, and usually they say something like "it feels like I'm loved/have purpose."
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Kot

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5794 on: September 03, 2016, 06:43:08 pm »

I've asked some RL people this before, and usually they say something like "it feels like I'm loved/have purpose."
Technically, as an... atheist, I am not very good person (I am not sure how many people around here are actually religious, though) to answer this and it will sound... weird, ridiculous maybe, but I'd throw my half a dollar here.
As you may have noticed, I have been (shit)posting Imperial Truth around this thread and others - don't go yet, I don't belive in existence of God-Emperor and far future of tabletop wargame, I'm not that mad :P - and I... think that it makes sense. You could say that I sort of belive in it. All this Humanity Fuck Yeah shit. Somehow.

Sometimes when I lie in bed, I think of how far we have gone as a species, as a civilization, of the greatness we have achieved and I see the beauty of it. I think of how many acts of love - or hate - have must have happened for me to even get born. At those times I feel like my story isin't just the story of a young guy with shitton of problems, that it's the story of whole world. I think about my ancestors fighting in wars, about my ancestors that have lived their lives to the best of their abilities and at those times I feel... kind of a burden. I cannot let this be in vain, after all, but... it will be okay anyway. After all, even if I were to die tommorow, I proably made an impact on peoples lives and that it might just be enough to change world significantly in the long run. Maybe someone I know will do something important just because I am? Maybe, but the point is that I feel... loved and that I have a purpose. My existence is a miracle (oh, I am so modest :P) and that fills me with... pride, I guess?
Sometimes, when I walk, I feel as the whole humanity was behind me. I think that I am not alone, that everyone is related to me and I feel an... connection with them. Silly as it sounds, at those times I feel like everything is going to be all right and that I can do anything and everything... That feeling gives me strength to continue walking despite all the shit life throws at me. I have to keep going for there is more in life. At those times, I imagine how far we can go, that some day in far future some descendant of mine may walk under an alien sky, I imagine humanity soaring through space in mighty spaceships (not nescessarily space cathedrals of Wh40k :P) and I think of greatness we can achieve. That we won't be silenced and that humans shall see the beauty of whole world, and the world shall see ours. My life has purpose to help that happen. Life makes sense, for once.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5795 on: September 03, 2016, 08:47:03 pm »

Okay, I've probably asked this question before, but I can't be bothered going through my post list to find when I posted in this thread.  For any actual religious people on this forum: what does faith feel like?  Is it possible to describe the feeling of belief that goes beyond the intellectual and maybe the emotional, or whatever other definition you have for faith?

I've always always always been curious about this, the definition of faith and what constitutes it has always bothered me.  For all I know, I'm setting far too unrealistic standards for belief in a higher power, by other people's standards my acceptance of the teachings of religions might already make me a believer.  Personally, I think I still have a lot of doubt, and that doubt doesn't just go away from a feeling, it has to be mentally worked over, which really reinforces the idea that I've always had trouble believing in things I can't see.

I have changed a lot since I first started posting here, as I have learned/grown in my faith. So I guess I'll give it a shot.

My relationship with God is the main focus of my faith. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I can feel God in my life. I can't rationalize it to anybody if you haven't felt it.

I also have given up on the Young-earth creationism spiel that I ran earlier, since I accepted that the bible was not written to explain Geology.
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NRDL

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5796 on: September 03, 2016, 09:36:01 pm »

That's cool, I can understand not being to explain where it comes from, but is it possible to describe it?  Like how you'd describe colours on a flower, or the feeling of a summer's day.  That's probably getting a bit poetic, but a feeling as immaterial as what I'm imagining and what you may be describing, there has to be a suitable way to express it and make it understood.
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5797 on: September 03, 2016, 09:58:01 pm »

Okay, I've probably asked this question before, but I can't be bothered going through my post list to find when I posted in this thread.  For any actual religious people on this forum: what does faith feel like?  Is it possible to describe the feeling of belief that goes beyond the intellectual and maybe the emotional, or whatever other definition you have for faith?

I've always always always been curious about this, the definition of faith and what constitutes it has always bothered me.  For all I know, I'm setting far too unrealistic standards for belief in a higher power, by other people's standards my acceptance of the teachings of religions might already make me a believer.  Personally, I think I still have a lot of doubt, and that doubt doesn't just go away from a feeling, it has to be mentally worked over, which really reinforces the idea that I've always had trouble believing in things I can't see.

To me it's more of a gut feeling, of it making sense, or some sense. Could be wrong, sure, but it's a good feeling nonetheless. 'Course, Discordianism kinda runs on "I dunno" a lot more than most religions. Could be a load of crap, sure, but bullshit makes flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5798 on: September 03, 2016, 10:21:28 pm »

... it's not really an it, is the thing. There's not exactly one sort of faith, or one sort of expression of it. Even remotely. If you're looking for something approaching a commonality... just get into meditation and/or self-hypnosis. Do some research on religion-centered oration and how priests have preached throughout history, the cadences and settings and methodologies and whatnot that they use to get folks to listen. You don't have to have a religious component to put yourself into the mindset of many believers when they're having a religious experience, just perform the right actions in the right environment. Without a doubt that would be the most common mechanisms, dressed up in religious regalia or not, to experience what most people seem to consider faith. But if you're looking for a singular answer, a definitive "this is faith and what it feels like", you are barking not just up the wrong tree but in actuality yodeling at the roots of a fern in the wrong forest. Not just not in the ballpark but in fact lounging in a cave in a different galaxy as the ballpark.

Personally, the closest I've gotten to a religious experience -- faith more pronounced than just the idle belief that the ground isn't going to fall out from under you in normal conditions type stuff -- that wasn't easily identifiable as an outright psychotic (well, major depressive, whatever) break came initially from music (at this point I can largely induce the same thing with a shift in breathing and a little attention, but that's neither here nor there). The sensation of losing yourself to something else, of subsuming what you are into something that's patterned in a particular way, of narrowing your focus down to the sound and yourself and naught else... it's the same thing many folks feel in church or whathaveyou, by and large. Add in that good ol' ASMR for an additional physical reaction and it's a feeling of faith by any means except the claiming of it. Bit of disassociation, altered cognitive/perceptive state, bit of physical feedback and a sense of overall release/relaxation and there you go.

Other folks get different things, or identify different mindsets as ones intertwined with faith. I've talked to folks that felt they experienced faith most intensely in moments in incredible terror (or awe in the original, holy shit that mountain is on fire and falling on me, sense), usually accompanied by what they claim are visions* -- a sort of absolute knowledge that you are in the presence of something able and entirely willing but for <Reason> (usually contingent on their religious beliefs) to utterly destroy them. Others that broadly speaking don't feel anything outside of the norm, but ascribe to faith what others would call simple conscience -- that little voice in your head that tells you how to not fuck up, given metaphysical weight. Still more that claim a sense of presence and companionship as they speak with holy figures (usually in dreams, sometimes just via good ol' hallucination), or the sensation of something being with you (usually something related to their spiritual beliefs) in some sense or another.

The list just kinda' goes on... to a degree, just as you can view things as there being a different god for every individual (no two people that claim to share beliefs really interpret them the exact same way; all who hold belief can be said to actually be a member of a religion of one, that happens to share somewhat superficial similarities with certain others), there's a different faith for every believer... even another sort for all but the most incredibly insane of non-believers, too. The simple unattended confidence that the sun will rise in the east is a sort of faith, too. Different from most religion related ones, but eh.

*Perhaps unsurprisingly, I just call them hallucinations if I'm not moderating what I say to make sure they're not going to flip out and try to kill me, heh. I've had the same experiences, but don't ascribe the same interpretation. The human brain is really rather incredibly good at going haywire to one extent or another, and acknowledging that has kinda' been important for me, considering I've been hallucinating 24/7 as long as I can remember.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5799 on: September 04, 2016, 06:21:32 am »

I once wrote an essay on Religious Experience, and one of the things I mentioned was the feeling believers have of God being in some way present - my (rebuttal, I suppose you could call it?) was that just because you feel something is there, doesn't mean it is so. In fact, quite often the opposite - how many times have you felt, even known, someone was watching or there was something in the shadows? Almost every single time there isn't. I think it's a similar idea, except that instead of feeling something bad is watching it's feeling something good is.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5800 on: September 04, 2016, 11:37:27 am »

That's cool, I can understand not being to explain where it comes from, but is it possible to describe it?  Like how you'd describe colours on a flower, or the feeling of a summer's day.  That's probably getting a bit poetic, but a feeling as immaterial as what I'm imagining and what you may be describing, there has to be a suitable way to express it and make it understood.
The best way I can put it is how as a kid, I always knew that my parents would always be there for me. Similar to that.
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Arx

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5801 on: September 04, 2016, 11:42:26 am »

Things don't make sense without God. That's about the best way I can put it.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5802 on: September 04, 2016, 11:45:48 am »

Really? Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's exactly the opposite of my thoughts, heh.

In what way is he necessary?
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Rose

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5803 on: September 04, 2016, 01:00:48 pm »

Yeah, I can't figure out a way that any religion makes sense.
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Arx

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #5804 on: September 04, 2016, 01:09:55 pm »

Really? Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's exactly the opposite of my thoughts, heh.

In what way is he necessary?

I suppose in a sense what you might disparagingly call God of the Gaps. Why do quarks have exactly one third the charge of an electron? Why do charges actually attract, when you get right down to it? Why is the speed of light what it is, and why is it that it can relate mass and energy so neatly? Why does anything anything?

I personally consider it the most reasonable explanation (of God, and this stuff) that He defined the way things work, more than anything else. Maybe at the beginning of the universe there was a huge quantity of energy floating around and He defined the rules that let it do stuff. Maybe there was nothing and God just pulled it all out of his hat. The explanation makes no less sense than any other. vOv

Also usually when I walk out into the rain it stops. And other more serious personal reasons.
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