Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 10:39:50 am
(http://i.imgur.com/Q0FqKSr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/99tqnOml.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/URWdX85l.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/99tqnOml.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/URWdX85l.png)
(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios/)
(http://i.imgur.com/AwgoVNI.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/mnEYIQG.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/PSWEs6s.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mnEYIQG.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/PSWEs6s.jpg)
Kickstarter Page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios)
Extensive Gametrailers Interview (http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/p08bxe/darkest-dungeon-the-minds-behind-the-madness)
RPS article (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/08/fear-and-gloaming-darkest-dungeon/#comment-1363728)
First Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLxdHfMPF8&feature=player_embedded#t=100)
Cinematic Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/dgbmph/darkest-dungeon-exclusive-trailer)
Big 'ol Q&A (http://www.ultimategamedb.com/Article/Article?id=5874fe14-46e2-4a3b-b3f8-52ce11f55c44)
Website (http://www.darkestdungeon.com/game/)
Darkest Dungeon will be a turn-based dungeon crawling game,
Quote from: RedHookChris
You've got an old school grid-based map with fog of war in the lower part of the screen that you use to select your desired destination, moving from room to room. And like the trailer, your movement tracked as a marker moving over tiles. However, simultaneously, in the main gameplay screen everything is presented in side view, like you saw in the trailer (walking through the crumbling halls, smashing barrels, digging through corpses for food, fighting off horrid beasts, etc) . The camera is obviously pulled out further in the game, but the steadycam look and feel is there.
What sets this game apart from other dungeon crawlers, besides the uber gritty art?
The point of the game. Rather than simply leveling a band of heroes and getting them teh phat lewts as you clobber moderate threats, Darkest Dungeon aims to explore the psychology of heroes as they wither under the constant threat of danger and horrors mankind was never meant to know about.
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Each and every adventurer you recruit will develop a unique combination of predispositions, proclivities, flaws and strengths – factors that must be carefully considered when forming a party and leading it through horrific environs. Furthermore, how you perfom in the dungeon will have lasting and impactful consequences on their continued development. You are put smack-dab in the role of a squad leader or sports team manager, doing your best to keep the human factors from fracturing your team or destroying their effectiveness.
There's permadeath (obviously), in addition to the game tracking hero's stress levels and their relationships with other members of the party.
Do watch the video, as it oozes flavor and intent. I'm tempted to say X-COM in a dungeon, but that's probably not accurate. This doesn't seem like a game you win while lamenting your handful of lost soldiers. This seems like a game you play to watch your party go insane and/or die. In their words:
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In short, we want to create the kind of team interaction and tension that arises in the most desperate situations. We want Hudson’s panic from ‘Aliens’, MacReady’s booze-battling from ‘The Thing’, James’s detached sadism from ‘The Hurt Locker’. We want you to manage a party of human heroes faced with almost insurmountable odds. If you can lead them to victory, you’ll have earned it.
The current ETA for cyclopean madness is: Late 2014 for Early Access, January 2015 for full release.
Post by: CognitiveDissonance on October 09, 2013, 10:42:47 am
Post by: Neyvn on October 09, 2013, 11:23:27 am
Post by: Lectorog on October 09, 2013, 12:06:37 pm
Post by: Wiles on October 09, 2013, 12:55:21 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 09, 2013, 01:04:03 pm
Post by: UristMcDwarf on October 09, 2013, 01:09:01 pm
Post by: Unusedname on October 09, 2013, 01:30:22 pm
It's just a shame i'm going to have completely forgotten about this when it does actually come out.
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 02:07:26 pm
Post by: CognitiveDissonance on October 09, 2013, 02:09:20 pm
Don't worry, they'll be doing a Kickstarter. So you'll inevitably be seeing this thread again.
Awesome!
I also hope that as it commonly happens, the devs drop by here. I'd love to hear the behind the scenes thinking on this project.
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 02:52:19 pm
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on October 09, 2013, 02:53:21 pm
I reached out to the devs. We'll see if took the bait!
If you call it bait they'll know something's not right!
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 03:00:22 pm
I reached out to the devs. We'll see if took the bait!
If you call it bait they'll know something's not right!
Just because the pouch of gold is sitting in a bear trap doesn't mean the gold itself is bad :P
Post by: Cthulhu on October 09, 2013, 03:07:44 pm
I hope it turns out well. Horror is a hard thing to do, a lot of people just fling around a couple words like "eldritch" and "antediluvian" and call it a day. There's more to good horror than just "the monster is big and from another dimension, it has tentacles, now you're insane."
Post by: RedHookChris on October 09, 2013, 03:15:40 pm
I appear to have taken some bait!
My name is Chris - I'm the Creative Director/Artist on Darkest Dungeon. Nenjin emailed me and asked if I'd be interested in stopping by - needless to say I was replying to him while registering here :) Thanks very much for all your interest in the game - it's a big boost for us.
I'd be happy to provide any insight or answer questions any of you might have the best I can, keeping in mind that we can't completely roll out our design doc just yet...
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 03:17:36 pm
Format? The game seems to have a heavy board game inspiration, like Hero's Quest. Is the bulk of what we'll be seeing a torch moving between tiles in a top-down perspective, or was that purely for the trailer?
Are the dungeons procedurally, or at least randomly, generated?
The website says a stable of 16 adventurers. Is that the kind of stable you can refill as you lose adventurers, or is it closer to a game like Krater, where you start with a list of people and that's all you get to work with?
Dovetailing that, is this kind of a persistent world? I.e., you generate it, and endlessly run heroes and parties through the same world, building up a wealth of deaths? Or do you gen a world, and play those guys, and once you've won or run out of heroes, you start a new save?
Basically, as soon as you decided to make a game about heroes falling apart, you got this forum's attention :P Losing is FUN
Post by: Xantalos on October 09, 2013, 03:18:29 pm
Post by: RedHookChris on October 09, 2013, 03:34:37 pm
Basically, I wanted to take all my favourite things about rogue-likes, but give them a bit of a facelift. The top down grid adventures are _awesome_ and I love them, but for Darkest Dungeon, I wanted to get more of a storybook or 'moving image' look going on. Inspiration came from the Witcher 2 cutscenes, Guy Davis, Mike Mignola, etc. Intimacy was also a big consideration - the game is built around creating a bond with your adventurers, and becoming invested in their evolution. A rogue-like camera is practical, but it's hard to relate to the top of someone's head.
So we're going for a hybrid approach: You've got an old school grid-based map with fog of war in the lower part of the screen that you use to select your desired destination, moving from room to room. And like the trailer, your movement tracked as a marker moving over tiles. However, simultaneously, in the main gameplay screen everything is presented in side view, like you saw in the trailer (walking through the crumbling halls, smashing barrels, digging through corpses for food, fighting off horrid beasts, etc) . The camera is obviously pulled out further in the game, but the steadycam look and feel is there.
This works on a number of levels: it feeds directly into the positional tactics that make our combat so interesting, it gives a really cool woodcut look to the game, emphasizes the claustrophic vibe, and gives us the retro/easy navigating of a classic roguelike.
Hopefully that makes some kind of sense! We'll roll out imagery and more official information on this soon.
Post by: RedHookChris on October 09, 2013, 03:39:56 pm
The overworld is persistent - heroes may come and go, and you'll eventually have a whole mess of tombstones in your graveyard.
Ok, back to work for me! I'll check back in a bit - thanks again for the opportunity to talk with you guys!
Chris
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 03:40:17 pm
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So we're going for a hybrid approach: You've got an old school grid-based map with fog of war in the lower part of the screen that you use to select your desired destination, moving from room to room. And like the trailer, your movement tracked as a marker moving over tiles. However, simultaneously, in the main gameplay screen everything is presented in side view, like you saw in the trailer (walking through the crumbling halls, smashing barrels, digging through corpses for food, fighting off horrid beasts, etc) . The camera is obviously pulled out further in the game, but the steadycam look and feel is there.
Bitchin'. Although that does prompt more questions. When you're being shown images of adventurers in a "non-gamey" way, their appearance and the diversity of it becomes really important.
With the emphasis on story and that emotional connection....will all fighters, plague doctors and the like look identical? So while their names and stats and traits might vary, your fighter is always going to look like the bearded guy in the trailer?
Can you talk a bit more about the combat? When you say your party is represented on the grid map as a single unit, is that how combat also plays out? Your party is one tile and you're positioning yourself to get the least attacks from adjacent, enemy-filled tiles?
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Your stable of heroes is totally refillable - you'll be hiring and firing guys as you go. Some might simply become too broken to be of any use, or a really awesome new class might wander into town and you want to make room for him/her.
The overworld is persistent - heroes may come and go, and you'll eventually have a whole mess of tombstones in your graveyard.
All good and pleasing things to hear.
Post by: RedHookChris on October 09, 2013, 03:51:03 pm
I'd love to explore differentiating instances of the same class, it's definitely on my radar, but we're a small team, and want to build out from the core of the game. So right now the effort is going into other areas. That's not to say we won't do it, just that we're early in development, and the Affliction system and getting the combat really fun is eating up our time!
I need to stay a bit tightlipped regarding combat, but yes, your party occupies a tile, and you must clear any monsters from your destination tile before you can move to it. Again, like we hinted at in the trailer, the exploration camera view seamlessly blends into combat, so you're always getting a cohesive experience.
Cheers!
Chris
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 03:58:06 pm
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I'd love to explore differentiating instances of the same class, it's definitely on my radar, but we're a small team, and want to build out from the core of the game.
Understood, that gets said a lot by indie developers. FWIW, even changing the hair color or the trim color on their clothing can go that one inch farther in making them believably different from each other.
That, or simple text statistics that may not even have an effect on gameplay. (Ex: He is fat. He is middle-aged. Her face is wrinkled. Her beard is braided into twin braids. ect....)
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 04:16:58 pm
Post by: RedHookChris on October 09, 2013, 04:21:56 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 09, 2013, 04:22:39 pm
Just what I was thinking. Even if the visual of the characters stay identical for members of the same class, DF-esque randomly generated appearance/personality text goes a long way for people who are used to imagining their characters. With that said, hopefully this project will be successful enough that there's time and money to spend creating variation in character appearances. In any case, what we've seen so far looks delightful.QuoteI'd love to explore differentiating instances of the same class, it's definitely on my radar, but we're a small team, and want to build out from the core of the game.
Understood, that gets said a lot by indie developers. FWIW, even changing the hair color or the trim color on their clothing can go that one inch farther in making them believably different from each other.
That, or simple text statistics that may not even have an effect on gameplay. (Ex: His is fat. His is middle-aged. Her face is wrinkled. Her beard is braided into twin braids. ect....)
Post by: Neonivek on October 09, 2013, 04:24:19 pm
In that we shouldn't be tripping over constant mental breakdowns right?
Also are some enemies more stressful then others?
Undead are always such fodder in most games but I honestly think in reality they would probably be more "Moral draining" then even the more powerful monsters. Especially with the smell.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 09, 2013, 04:30:37 pm
How much customization are we going to get for our people? Or is it going to be more of a 'here is who is available, choose who you take from amongst them' sort of game?
If the latter, do you think you'll be able to have a character generator so we can add a bunch of custom heroes into the game? Being able to add people you have a personal connection to adds a lot to this sort of feel, in my experience. Kind of like in X-Com, where you might become attached to some random soldier you got but you're almost certainly going to be attached to the guy you named and customized yourself.
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 04:30:38 pm
You know it!
Probably my second favorite Lovecraft story evar. (The first being The Tomb.)
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Now I assume that unless we pick the worst people imaginable that our heros will at least be made of sterner stuff.
In that we shouldn't be tripping over constant mental breakdowns right?
They've really underlined the word "Human" when talking about the game. My take on it is that they're saying humans, not heroes, all have their breaking point. It's also implied that what characters start with is not necessarily what they end up with, that they develop frailties as the game goes on. (I'd hope counterbalanced by their increased levels and capabilities.)
I'd hate for it to be reduced to something like Rogue Legacy, where you're just grabbing the least bad out of a bunch of bad characters. (It really sucked the life out of the game for me when every hero had something "wrong" with them, but not in a way that made for interesting characters.....instead it made for bland mechanical tweaks.)
In fact, I'll just say it: Look at Rogue Legacy as an example of what not to do with character frailties. There needs to be: a) variety. OMG, there must be variety! b) traits with consequences. A colorblind hero doesn't have a meaningful disadvantage, making them the primary choice among characters with more severe flaws. c) RNG that strikes a balance between decent heroes and fuck ups. In the case of Rogue Legacy, every hero had a disadvantage of some kind. Which kind of spoiled the illusion that these were diverse people. If everyone is either going to be flatulent, obese, have gigantism.....you're not seeing these as traits anymore, but as numbers.
Post by: Neonivek on October 09, 2013, 04:34:22 pm
Which wouldn't have been SOO bad had there been a way to change your genetic pool so you eventually end up with children who tended to be better... but no... It also wouldn't have been so bad had they been rare, but honestly it is rare not to have your family being a bunch of freaks.
But a "hero" and a "Human" are the same thing in my mind. Yet a trained human doesn't suddenly have break downs because he fought rabid dogs unless they have a mind of a twig.
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 04:51:11 pm
Quote
But a "hero" and a "Human" are the same thing in my mind. Yet a trained human doesn't suddenly have break downs because he fought rabid dogs unless they have a mind of a twig.
I'd disagree here. You and I are "Human." Heroes, as gamers understand them, are larger than life figures. So many games treat the playable character as a hero, a pillar of unshakable awesomeness. (Basically picture your friend's characters in a D&D session, the ones that walk straight into danger because, fuck it, YOLO.) That's why so many sword and sorcery games that spent TONS of effort of aesthetics on scaring or unnerving you fall flat.......because your hero is unflappable. Mechanically and thematically speaking.
Post by: Glloyd on October 09, 2013, 04:55:12 pm
One last question for now.....is the name of your dev studio taken from the H.P Lovecraft short, the Horror at Red Hook?
Well I'm sold.
Post by: Neonivek on October 09, 2013, 04:55:49 pm
I'd disagree here because a "hero" and a "human" are not mutually exclusive.
Calling these people heroes does not feel inappropriate in the least. Sure they aren't people who could endure 20 hours of torture then vaporize an army with their heat vision and only feel hungry for doing so.
I do not think "gamers" confuse heroes and humans at all.
My question is simply asking if these heroes are mentally stable and don't snap like a twig at the smallest trouble or threat.
As well if your definition of "hero" is larger then life... Then there is nothing to suggest they won't be larger then life. Just that they don't have regenerating sanity.
Post by: Lectorog on October 09, 2013, 04:58:18 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 05:00:10 pm
Quote
I'd disagree here because a "hero" and a "human" are not mutually exclusive.
They're not mutually inclusive either. And again, it's question of whether you're talking heroic fantasy or not. Heroic fantasy is filled, at all levels, with people having no weaknesses, no doubts, no frailties, no fears. They might have some feels, but nothing that detracts from how awesome and capable they are.
It seems this game plans to ram a spear right through the guts of the power fantasy.
Post by: RedHookTyler on October 09, 2013, 07:44:42 pm
The combat is tactical, but presented in what I think is a pretty cool and innovative way. It functions kind of like a cross between old-school Bard's Tale type games and a new ability-based structure. The characters and monsters are lined up linearly as you see in the trailer, so position matters a lot, just like in some of those older games. Generally, although not always, characters in the front of the party can strike with melee attacks, and characters at the back will be using ranged attacks, buffs/debuffs, and so on. However, there is a surprising amount of depth in this structure when we add in new mechanics. Without going into everything at this point, suffice it to say you'll be weighing the pros and cons of the different classes (some are versatile; some are specialists), the makeup of the particular monsters you are fighting and their abilities, types of weapons, and so on. Moreover, you will be moving your heroes around in the thick of combat to set up attacks and combos, protect them, and so on. And finally the kicker: remember that you are not just managing hit points. The psychological state of the characters has huge ramifications. Is the Crusader afraid of giant maggots? He might rush to the back to hide. Is the Tombrobber freaking out with a death wish? He might rush forward, heedless of the danger. Should you use this turn to have the Vestal shout an encouraging word to the party members and reduce their stress? Or perhaps everyone is fine right now, and no histrionics occur.
Of course, the game is not solely about bad things. When the chips are down and things look bleak, this is where true heroism comes in. A well-placed critical can inspire the party. The Highwayman has bad history with skeletons, and he can blast them down with increased vigor. Maybe the unlikeliest of heroes, the greedy Tombrobber, will rise to the occasion against the most hideous of bosses, sacrificing himself in one fatal run that allows everyone to live. Those moments, to us, are inspiring. And you will have a hand in creating them.
<marketing hat> Finally, I'd be remiss in saying: if you are interested in the game, please consider signing up on our mailing list so you don't miss news about feature reveals, potential Founders/Crowdfunding opportunities, and so on.
http://eepurl.com/F-fo1
or even Like the Facebook page if you are into such things. </marketing hat>
Ok back to work for me...!
--Tyler
Post by: nenjin on October 09, 2013, 08:05:30 pm
If you can expound on that a bit.....is it basically a pool that takes a hit when bad stuff happens, and rises when good things (crits, bracing speeches) are used? I guess what I'm asking is, is "badness" measured as a generic pool and things trigger off of that....or is it a more refined system, based more around specific instances. (So for example, a spider bites a party member and they check to see whether or not they develop a crazy phobia of spiders.) A mix of both? I'm less inclined to be interested in a game that revolves solely around "keep your morale up, bad things don't happen." It's too much like a sanity bar, which becomes predictable and kind of wrecks the illusion IMO.
I too played Bard's Tale back in the day, and I *loved* the concept of a guild of heroes and a pool of applicants you draw from. That kind of thinking as gone to the wayside these days, replacing "generic" heroes (who I like to think you detail in your head) with icons. Sort of how Final Fantasy 1 had generic heroes, and later Final Fantasies opted for characters you couldn't really define for yourself.
That's also a nice throwback to party marching order. The trailer really does say a lot of things about the game, although it's hard to separate the glam from the informative bits.
Also encouraged to hear about the diversity of classes. Any chance you can spoil a little bit about how many you're thinking of?
Post by: RedHookChris on October 10, 2013, 12:06:22 am
However, in regards to class diversity, we're playing with numbers around 20. Obviously, you don't start the game with all of them unlocked, some come as garner attention for you heroic acts, others may appear in town randomly, and still others are earned through easter-egg style happenstance.
In the Crypts, a Rabid Bat just crit'd your Nihilistic Occultist and he's below 5% health? Roll for VAMPIRE...for example ;)
Post by: Muz on October 10, 2013, 12:30:13 am
I'd buy a game just on the pitch of "send a group of people somewhere to die horribly". Would pay double if it involved tentacles and cute girls :x
Post by: Jelle on October 10, 2013, 01:37:35 am
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on October 10, 2013, 02:50:49 am
Post by: Lectorog on October 10, 2013, 09:38:06 am
Would pay double if it involved tentacles and cute girls :xred hook plz no
Post by: Cthulhu on October 10, 2013, 11:45:19 am
I hate these threads about really awesome games when I'm trying to save money/time :( But at least it's not done yet... though that kinda makes the problem worse.
I'd buy a game just on the pitch of "send a group of people somewhere to die horribly". Would pay double if it involved tentacles and cute girls :x
no
no
no
Post by: nenjin on October 10, 2013, 11:51:19 am
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on October 10, 2013, 01:11:56 pm
Would pay double if it involved tentacles and cute girls :xred hook plz no
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaAEsOXu90Y
Post by: RedHookTyler on October 10, 2013, 01:17:15 pm
I hate these threads about really awesome games when I'm trying to save money/time :( But at least it's not done yet... though that kinda makes the problem worse.
In this rare instance, we are glad to deliver a thread that you hate! ;)
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2013, 01:49:47 pm
Post by: mainiac on October 10, 2013, 01:56:41 pm
Post by: RedHookTyler on October 10, 2013, 02:00:06 pm
--Tyler
Post by: nenjin on October 10, 2013, 03:43:56 pm
Sort of like in X-COM though, managing deleterious effects too well actually makes for a kind of boring game. So I hope there is an unavoidable degree of risk involved. (Ex. A party member with 100% morale still has a small chance to lose his shit, like 5% or something.)
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on October 10, 2013, 04:59:55 pm
Similarly, in reality people have emotional reactions to seeing and hearing other people's emotional reactions. If someone screams in fear you are more likely to feel fear.
You could think of morale as simply bravery - the control over the human flight mechanism.
Based on that, each person could have a dozen "insanities" with varying severity levels, and a basic resistance to insanity as another stat. Psychological stress reduces your resistance. Specific psychological stress increases your insanity score in the related insanity.
Example:
Confined Spaces [6]
Darkness [3]
Water [1]
Vermin [2]
Stability: {4}
When you encounter a confined space, you roll d6 + [6] - {4}. The intensity of your freakout is higher if the result is higher. You can see how much easier it is for this character to deal with water (d6 + [1] - {4}). But if a monster came at you out of the water, your Water score would go up. If you got hit by a fear spell your Stability would go down.
That would mean every character has every insanity, even if it's a
- . Characters could conquer their fears or succumb to them, making future rolls easier or harder.
BTW, do you guys have a psychologist on your team?
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2013, 05:47:17 pm
There is an inherent feedback loop there (each successive incapacitation increases the chance of a party wipe), but we have some plans for how to address it. And we also don't want to design out that feedback loop completely because it's a real-world mechanic! If the soldier on your left and the soldier on your right both panic, there's more pressure on you! Overall, our philosophy is that "Bad things happen. Really bad things tend to be partially or wholly your fault."
--Tyler
Well, in X-Com, troops could respond to their teammates dying by either fleeing, freezing, or going berserk. The first two were always bad, whereas going berserk could sometimes save the soldier's life (they shot randomly, so sometime they killed their teammates, but sometimes they killed lots of enemies in one round).
I'd suggest moral boosting items, like booze and drugs, that adventurers can get addicted to. After all, there must be a reason adventurers are always found in the pub, right?
Adventurers might also respond to creatures that kill their teammates in later encounters by either being so scared they automatically run away, freeze up, or go berserk and can't flee. One rat kills your teammate -> Kill all rats!
Post by: nenjin on October 10, 2013, 05:56:30 pm
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I'd suggest moral boosting items, like booze and drugs, that adventurers can get addicted to. After all, there must be a reason adventurers are always found in the pub, right?
That was already mentioned once somewhere else; basically they develop a trait for heavy drinking, so when they have booze on them they'll drink to overcome their fears but get progressively more drunken along the way, giving you a choice to let them indulge their habit for safety's sake....or not letting them indulge for safety's sake. I probably got that a little wrong, but it's the gist of it, drinking to deal with cowardice.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 10, 2013, 06:29:49 pm
QuoteI'd suggest moral boosting items, like booze and drugs, that adventurers can get addicted to. After all, there must be a reason adventurers are always found in the pub, right?
That was already mentioned once somewhere else; basically they develop a trait for heavy drinking, so when they have booze on them they'll drink to overcome their fears but get progressively more drunken along the way, giving you a choice to let them indulge their habit for safety's sake....or not letting them indulge for safety's sake. I probably got that a little wrong, but it's the gist of it, drinking to deal with cowardice.
I read that, I just suggesting a way to force adventurers to drink, but I guess this game is less hands-on that that, which is fine.
Post by: nenjin on October 10, 2013, 06:40:56 pm
So while thinking about the game a few more questions occurred to me.
It seems like you'll build up heroes while the game breaks them down, meaning a lot of new blood is going to come into the guild.
How much will you have to invest time into these characters to get them "up to speed?" Will everyone come in at level 1, and need to be equipped and run through easier missions so they don't get wtfsplattered immediately?
Which cuts to question #2: what's the whole structure of this thing as far as doing "runs." Do you click the "Go" button and a dungeon is generated for you, applicable to your party's overall level? Is there like a "Floor 1, Floor 2, Floor 3" structure where you can pick what floor you want to run against, allowing you to (as above) level up FNG's in relative "safety"? Or is it a straight progression through floors, each one when beaten can't be returned to, as you slowly work you way down to the end boss. (Meaning new heroes would probably have to be pretty awesome right out of the box to keep up......)
I'm really hoping to here there's a random or procedural component to map design (being that you like roguelikes, it would seem a must). If the game is sufficiently hilarious and difficult enough to tell stories about, about your one-eyed, one-armed schizophrenic Crusader with a drinking problem, I'd want an open-ended way to play that, especially with persistent characters.
Post by: RedHookChris on October 10, 2013, 07:32:30 pm
Thought i'd jump back in with some comments!
Out of Dungeon/Town/Between-Runs is an important part of the game, and more meaningful than just reorganizing your inventory and buying new abilities. I can't get into specifics here, other than to say that the Town itself is a persistet measure of progress and investing in it will allow you fasttrack/incubate new characters so they can be brought up to speed more quickly. We don't want you to feel like a new recruit is just another grind. That being said: you can train a man up, you can give him the best weapons & armor available, but if he's untested, he's still an FNG when the proverbial hits the fan.
Runs themselves are framed as quests. You'll consult a map/list of available quests, and decide which you want to attempt. From there, you'll select your party, provision them, and hit 'GO'. Some quests are common, and may pop up regularly, but some, like rare loot, only appear infrequently, and you'll want your A team for those!
And there will definitely be a procedural component. No memorizing the dungeon layouts for an easy win!
I'm out of town for the Thanksgiving weekend, so this is likely my last post until mid next week. Thank you guys so much again for your interest in the game, and for the invitation to chat with you on the forum. Tyler and I really appreciate the support and enthusiasm!
Post by: Shakerag on October 12, 2013, 01:41:37 am
Post by: Chattox on October 12, 2013, 03:24:20 am
Post by: nenjin on November 19, 2013, 12:05:28 pm
Just a bit of news as the Red Hook guys talk to other media outlets about the game. I'm on the mailing list yet I didn't see mention of some of these blurbs.
Not a ton of new details, but there's a bit more flesh around their ideas that wasn't necessarily expressed here.
Man, next year cannot come soon enough. This game needs to get made!
Post by: ukulele on November 19, 2013, 02:51:09 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 19, 2013, 04:28:48 pm
Sooo, any rough estimate on when I can throw money at you? :D
According to the article that was just posted, it sounds like they'll be doing a kickstarter early next year.
So backing this.
Post by: nenjin on January 24, 2014, 02:43:20 pm
Post by: ghostetler88 on January 24, 2014, 03:01:20 pm
So somebody said Kickstarter in 2014. Where's it at guys? My money isn't going to throw itself you know.According to their Twitter account, it's set to start February 10th. Definitely looking forward to backing it.
Post by: Neyvn on January 24, 2014, 03:07:35 pm
Post by: Xinvoker on January 24, 2014, 04:43:51 pm
I like this.By posting in this thread, I have assured a timely reminder.
It's just a shame i'm going to have completely forgotten about this when it does actually come out.
Muahahaha!
Post by: RedHookChris on January 25, 2014, 09:09:06 pm
Wanted to drop in and and say Happy New Year!
I managed a couple days off for the holidays, but generally, we've been busy as hell the last month and a half.
Kickstarter is indeed slated for Feb 10th! We'll have a new trailer that features some backstory and gameplay footage, a whole bunch of screenshots, and more information on the game's systems (including town!) During the campaign we're planning on doing a live-stream of some character design, a video focusing on our combat mechanics and a bunch of other cool stuff.
Anyway, we really appreciate the interest you guys have expressed in this thread - stay tuned and email us any time. I'll check back in case any questions get posted here.
Ok, back to work!
Chris
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2014, 09:35:56 pm
Post by: Zangi on January 26, 2014, 05:33:14 pm
Post by: Yoink on January 26, 2014, 11:32:49 pm
I especially love the Mignola-esque (although seemingly more detailed) artwork. :)
Gonna say right now, I am looking forwards to trying a playthrough of just loading up my entire party with as much booze as they can carry. That's a valid strategy, right?!
Post by: Gotdamnmiracle on January 26, 2014, 11:39:17 pm
Post by: Muz on January 27, 2014, 03:44:22 am
Post by: Sensei on January 27, 2014, 04:18:07 am
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2014, 09:51:44 am
The game mechanics are going to be really important for a kickstarter. Concept is one thing, but implementation means everything in games. You'd have to convince people that it's more than just an idea and that there's at least a rock solid prototype finished.
Quite. It could be all too easy for a game like this to reduce, for example, character complexity down to very simple nuts and bolts. Which is fine I suppose, but then the rest of the game has to carry the mechanical complexity to continue to draw the player in. We set the bar pretty high here, so, for example....
A game like Reus said one thing but turned out to be quite different. What at first I thought was a god-game was really more of a 2d jigsaw puzzle with god-game-looking features, where you lay down the puzzle and then flip switches on each piece until you get big numbers. Perhaps this is a symptom of the kinds of games people believe sell nowadays (visually impressive, mechanically simplistic time wasters.) As another example? Legend of Dungeon. Which on its face you could probably tell wasn't going to be a deep game. But I was kind of shocked how shallow it was, even within thew well-trodden and thorough idea rich genre that is dungeon crawlers and roguelikes. Again, what sold the game? Visuals and music. Mechanically I didn't know shit about it until I played it and had I known, I wouldn't have bought it.
So in the end, I want more than simple, pretty time wasters and I always will. The gameplay loop has to go somewhere, it can't just continually repeat itself adding in a thing over two over a couple hours until you hit your 8 idea quotient. So I hope you guys have a good plan of attack for the game, and the Kickstarter. Time will tell and everything you've shown so far tells me you're headed in the right direction. But it wouldn't be the first concept I've been super pumped about, only to later learn that the execution isn't what I was hoping for or was way less than I was hoping for.
It's getting to the point where when someone tells me they're making a 'deep, satisfying' rpg/dungeon crawler/RTS/shoot em up/zombie game in 1 to 1.5 years, I kind of already write it off. Because often it seems like half of that year or more is devoted to visuals, and whatever is left over is what makes up the dev time on the actual mechanics and gameplay that carry the game forward.
Post by: Gotdamnmiracle on January 27, 2014, 01:16:33 pm
I could easily see this being a mechanic, where if you push your guys to little, they will make no money or progress beating back the evil and either starve or watch as they get conquered, or if you push them to hard, having them fight for days on end with only a couple hours of sleep, then they will tweak out with lasting problems. You could also bring in the fact that most bands of adventurers, or at least the stereotype, don't really relate a ton. I mean I can see a virtuous knight having trouble relating to a wizard who only cares about study and the ends justifying the means, not only on the battlefield, but also on a personal level. Same with a rogue, I mean he had to get his skills somewhere, and you don't often get them making an honest living. I would say there should be a bonus system of likemindedness, where if they face a !Vile Thornbeast! the knight may be more inclined to relate to the wizard because they came from the same part of the country, rather than the other knight even though they have a similar form, and the rogue may take more away from the whole thing because he came from the same village as the mage. But in the end, everyone would still take something away from it, because they all faced the same evil. Forming friendships could occur too, allowing for more interaction, but also possibly creating cliques, leaving others out in the cold.
That being said, the opposite could always occur. You could always get really nasty hatreds or pet peeves and all that.
Grossman also writes about the importance of posturing as far as a leader goes, this could also come into play. I make another post for that though with a picture if I can find one.
Post by: Gotdamnmiracle on January 27, 2014, 02:36:40 pm
Alright well let me try to explain.
So there is a negative side and a positive side to it. Let's say if you end up with a positive number, then the soldier will effectively engage the enemy. If a negative number, the soldier will engage and intentionally miss, Not engage at all, orr if it is really low, turn and run, or turn on the leader.
Positive effects:
Posture of the leader; how intent the leader is in his orders (example: screaming and yelling them versus just saying them or whispering them. How the leader, etc.)
Respect for the leader; Self explanatory. Usually based on how well you know the person and not on rank.
Respect for order; Kill those armed men who slaughtered our unit versus kill those armed men versus kill those foreign nationals versus kill those women and children who are not posturing offensively.
surrounding squads morale; Seeing a fellow respected warrior die, get injured, or etc. can spur different men in different directions but base moral has been shown to weigh more on the field leader than on the infantryman themselves. It often is encompassed with the warring ideas of "I must expend men to kill my enemy." versus "My men are dying I must conserve them if I intend to survive. This often causes weight on mens conscience after the fact, but occasionally during the conflict. This effect is felt more intensely the leader is connected to the situation. (Ie a lieutenant would be more affected by half of his men dying than the captain that directly ordered it.)
Negative effects:
Posture of enemy; Advancing versus standing ground versus tactically retreating versus routing.
Distance from enemy; The closer the fighting the more of a built in anti-kill response a normal human (98% of all humans are considered normal, there are those without this response and they are reffered to as "Psychopathic aggressive" which make up the final 2 percent.*) will have. This results in fewer casualties and is often more a game of bumping chest together until on turns to run (Humans, like most predatory creatures, have NO kill response when a creature has it's back turned, so it's a lot easier to shoot an opponent in the back, when it's running away.) Most wars of early civilizations were not very bloody at all wand were more of a game of bumping shields together in a big fray until one ran, then they turned very bloody. I also urge you to look up the statistics for bayonet combat, and I can tell you for one, they have been all but phased completely out of the military because of how useless they are.
Amount of fighting without debrief; There is actually a curve of combat learning, it relates to time in constant combat versus usefulness of a soldier, after a full day of combat the person would be very stressed but more knowledgable, after day two the person is considered their most knowledgable and a combat veteran, from that point on skill takes a sharp drop eventually resulting in day sixteen where the person is not able to function at all finding even simple activities difficult (think day eight: "GAME OVER, MAN! GAME OVER!"). Consistent debriefing can save a lot of trouble later on because lasting injury can occur after about day four, but some people can be effected even sooner.
Miscellaneous mental stressers in relation; If Jody has been hanging out with your girlfriend it's pretty difficult to have your head in the game. Political climate can also have an affect on mental health both in the field and later on (this was part of the reason for all of the trauma coming out of Vietnam, when most people would come back home with problems no one could relate to, to a country that not only did not accept them but in most cases thought them monsters.) This is kind of the etcetera section.
*This 2% is not a bunch of lunatics actually. The name is psychologist speak from an archaic era of mental health. These men normally, functioned normally if not well in society, had no abuse, on the norm, growing up, and when they found themselves in a situation where they were asked to kill, found no difficulty in doing so. Think less Dammer or Gacy and more Lawrence of Arabia and Jack Church or any stereotypical mercenary.
Post by: Gotdamnmiracle on January 27, 2014, 02:39:42 pm
Post by: Sensei on January 27, 2014, 03:12:24 pm
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on January 27, 2014, 05:28:01 pm
Post by: Gotdamnmiracle on January 27, 2014, 05:58:09 pm
I normally avoid walls of text and the TL;DR would be ridiculous. Gimme a break. When it is your job to know a thing or two about PTSD, you have a bit to say.
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2014, 06:52:49 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on January 27, 2014, 06:55:57 pm
Post by: Karkov on January 27, 2014, 07:09:38 pm
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 03, 2014, 12:21:51 pm
Also I'm wondering what the special addition is for the 1100 subscribers before the kickstarter started and how we will claim the extra.
Post by: nenjin on February 05, 2014, 08:15:28 pm
Spoiler: Da Tiers (click to show/hide)
So what/who are THE MIGHTY 1100?
Quote
The Mighty 1100: Back us at the $29 Tier or Higher
The "Mighty 1100" is what we are calling those of you who have subscribed to our newsletter and supported us this far. There are actually more than 1100 of you now, but we want each of you to know how much we value your support.
Originally, we were going to require you to back at the $49 (ADVENTURER) level to get the Mighty 1100 exclusive rewards, but we've decided to lower that to the $29 Tier (SEEKER) instead!
AND, it gets better yet: we have a $25 Early Bird Tier with limited spots allocated. So if you act fast on Monday, you can get the $29 Tier for only $25! Early bird gets the worm!
Bottom line is: we appreciate your support this far, and we don't want it to be a burden for you to be able to get the Mighty 1100 special rewards.
How you Get the Mighty 1100 Rewards:
When Kickstarter begins, pledge at the $29 (SEEKER) level or higher.
What You Get (Mighty 1100 Rewards):
You get all of the normal SEEKER rewards of: Game, Early Access, a PDF Adventuring Manual, a PDF Estate Map, and a Credit in the game.
Your Credit gets upgraded from "Founder" to "Mighty 1100!"
CREST OF THE 1100: When the game releases, you will receive a special Steam Key that adds the Crest of the 1100 into your game. This is an equippable item, usable by a single character at a time, that has a very special power: it reduces Stress Damage to the character whenever the Torch level is low. In other words, when all hope is lost and things are dark, the strength of the Mighty 1100 may shine through!
MIGHTY 1100 AVATAR: Get an awesome special 250x250 pixel avatar only for the Mighty 1100 which you can use for profile pictures, in forums, and other places. Find your fellow Mighty 1100 on the web!
How will you know I'm part of the Mighty 1100?
After the campaign, we will match up those who have backed at SEEKER ($29) or higher with those on our mailing list. If your are on both, we'll add you to the Mighty 1100 list.
If your Kickstarter email address is different than your mailing list address, it will be a little harder. You'll need to email us after the campaign and give us your Kickstarter address so we can match up the records. It might take some time, but we'll get it sorted eventually!
Thoughts:
-Holy shit I posted about this back in October?!
-Glad the Kickstarter is finally about to start. I have good feels about it.
-Prices seem a little high, but, I'm glad for the absence of key chains and t-shirts and true swag overkill. The diorama does raise an eyebrow from me though.
-I'm pleased by the Mighty 1100, particularly because I didn't know it was a thing. Props to Red Hook for both honoring the first supporters and devising a way to drum up some early pledges ;) If I'm reading it right, signing up for the newsletter now and then pledging will get you the rewards.
-The real question of the Kickstarter still remains. How much? If this game is going for $75,000 it will sail right past it. That seems too low for an outfit like Red Hook and the quality level they're showing so far. But $200,000+? That'd make me a little nervous, unless it hits the scene like a ton of bricks and explodes into money. At $400,000 to $500,000, I'd be genuinely worried it wouldn't make it. While I love everything about the game, it feels like it's speaking to a niche audience and I'd hate for it to be shooting above and beyond what it's potential fan base is.
-I want dis game in mah belly. I'm also looking forward to hearing more specifics about mechanics.
-It's starting to seem you guys were too subtle, or just make really damn good trailers, with describing gameplay in the trailer. Some I've shown the game to had the same reaction I had: that looks badass, but what's the actual game look like? Not realizing the trailer is showing the vision for gameplay. (The hints are there but there's so much to take in you notice things like the damage indicators and stuff last of all. Plus, maybe it's just artistic flair?) Anyways, point of this is: I hope you have a new mockup that more clearly expresses the game format, or people might think you're only showing a trailer and there's no game yet.
Post by: RedHookChris on February 06, 2014, 02:21:42 am
I'm about to hit the sack - we have our audio mix for trailer #2 tomorrow! Just wanted to touch on the gameplay point you raised.
Let it be known: We have a game, it works, combat is fun, camping is crucial, and exploring is unpredictable! Our KS page is chock full of screenshots, and our second trailer features in-game captured footage. Moreover, Tyler will be running a few detailed breakdowns of combat via narration over captured footage sequences as the campaign progresses. It's not final, mind you, we need more fx and audio, etc, but we have successfully replicated the mocked up sequence from Trailer #1!
Can't wait to show off the fruits of our labour!
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: Mephansteras on February 06, 2014, 01:58:07 pm
Any chance the kickstarter will have a playable demo?
Post by: RedHookChris on February 06, 2014, 02:02:38 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 06, 2014, 02:26:05 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2014, 03:38:18 pm
Post by: RedHookChris on February 08, 2014, 08:47:29 pm
https://www.facebook.com/DarkestDungeon (https://www.facebook.com/DarkestDungeon)
Much more to come on Monday!
Post by: ductape on February 08, 2014, 09:20:48 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2014, 09:36:08 pm
I have some critiques and observations.
One is, the dominance of the player UI. My brain kind of finds it too large on the screen, like it should be spread out and lower. The center line of the screen should cross through the middle of the actor's bodies. Right now it's kinda more at their feet or knees. I like the two guardians at either side of the player UI, but it's a fairly cliche RPG trope at this point. That might be real-estate better reserved for the UI so it doesn't have to sit so tall. (Another alternative is to turn the guy's facing inward toward the player UI and have them hug the left and right edges. Mentally the image now translates to the guardians of the UI looking outward, protecting the player. Turning them facing inward makes it like they're watching the player, menacing them.)
My second critique, which again is purely just a gut reaction....is the action icons. They basically express what's possible in your game. They're a visual short hand for the range of player options. So mentally, when I see large, well furnished buttons it makes me think simplicity whether that's the case or not. A good UI communicates what's possible to the player in an easy to read visual statement that's also appealing. But it can go too far in that direction as well, and by putting too much emphasis on them it can highlight how simple some parts of the game actually are.
That's a totally navel-gazing UI critique, and I don't know if you guys are making visual considerations for things like touchpads, phones and tablets. If you are, I can understand why things need to be of a certain size and visibility....
On the other hand, I like that their equipped items feature loud and proud, so the player can appreciate the art work and tie it to the image of their character. I also appreciate the visual change in appearance from equipping gear.
Does the lighting effect in the action screen get dimmer as the torch runs low?
Anyways, minor complaints aside it looks fantastic and I think you guys will do very well come Monday.
Post by: RedHookChris on February 09, 2014, 02:35:46 pm
Last post before the KS launches tomorrow at 9am pacific. Wanted to thank you all for the continued interest, and link you to the epic soundtrack for our 'House of Ruin' trailer that's going to be featured on a pretty major gaming site in tandem with the KS launch. Stuart Chatwood is our composer, and his stuff blows my mind everytime I hear it! Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKI-UxJTCQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKI-UxJTCQ)
Nenjin, great comments - appreciate the objective feedback. The UI and layout may very well go through further refinements and changes as we broaden our pool of playtesters, and iron out which bits of information are critical, and which are less important. I've added your observations to our feedback document, so they won't get lost.
Cheers!
Chris
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 09, 2014, 05:19:47 pm
Also I'm wondering your getting the game on steam early access how long will it be untill we can play it ? Or is this a secret till the end ?
Can't wait thanks !
Post by: sambojin on February 09, 2014, 06:42:10 pm
I hope they consider an injury system, even if it is only descriptive. Healing magic tends to take away a lot of the "real" consequences, but battle-scars are a great reminder of things that have happened. "A torn scar runs from his right shoulder to his ribs. Gained from an Orc Chieftan's axe during the *insert name of mission here* quest". Random, and not very debilitating, but still very cool. Perhaps it could effect your reputation? Charisma? Remember, not all scars are bad, it depends where they are and how you got them. It's a living story to be told, which is what adventurers love. Scars are cool. But acid all over your face isn't.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2014, 07:32:29 pm
Quote
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKI-UxJTCQ
If it's one thing I can say about most Kickstarters, is that they all have great music and I've bought up to the level of the soundtrack, or as an add-on, most of the time. I love being able to use it for tabletop gaming, game replacement music or just something to listen to while I write.
Post by: sambojin on February 09, 2014, 08:34:47 pm
Can we have scars? (possibly even ones linked to psychological effects. Elves only like beautiful people, etc).
Is there healing magic, and if so, are there several types? Mentions of plague doctors and clerics and various types of thoughts related to them seems to imply "yes".
Can there be a trade-off made for different types of healing in relation to scars/reputation/time/cost? You might want your hero to keep that scar from the battle against a dragon. It might even be beneficial for his reputation. But sweeping aside those battle injuries gained from the "not-so-giant-rats" might be useful as well.
Is there a reputation system planned?
Is there a more substantial injury system planned? Are there some injuries that can't be healed? Will Sir Mage-a-lot's leg be gimped forever? Why? Can some injuries be beneficial (or the psychological effects that arise from them. Not necessarily just that character's psychology either. Orcs like scars, even on other people, some clerics protect the weak above the strong, etc)?
If you get a moment, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on these. By all means, knick any ideas you like the sound of. You guys will be very busy for the next few days (and for months afterwards), so no need to reply to quickly. You've got stuff to do :-)
Hope the Kickstarter goes well. I'm really looking forward to what you make of this :)
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 10, 2014, 12:03:49 pm
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios?ref=discovery
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 12:27:32 pm
I backed for a Mighty $100, because I really believe in this project. I'm thrilled by your chosen funding level. It's so low it's almost criminal, but IMO Kickstarters that undershoot their funding requirements tend to do much better and make more than those that overshoot.
Good luck guys, hopefully you won't need it.
(Er mahgerd, there's so much info in the Kickstarter. Need to sit down and have a good read.)
Post by: Zangi on February 10, 2014, 12:35:56 pm
Kickstarter is up!!In with the bricks.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios?ref=discovery
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 01:18:02 pm
I imagine it will taper off prior to reaching full funding. But still, very exciting!
I kinda wish the stretch goals up to $200,000k weren't stretch goals. They're very desirable things to have. (Randomized boss fights is kind of a must for a game like this. The effect added a ton of replayability and surprise to The Binding of Isaac.)
Beyond that level, the stretch goals aren't so desirable to me.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 10, 2014, 01:24:46 pm
Post by: Sindain on February 10, 2014, 01:38:56 pm
(and in for 20)
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 10, 2014, 01:42:07 pm
I kinda wish the stretch goals up to $200,000k weren't stretch goals. They're very desirable things to have. (Randomized boss fights is kind of a must for a game like this. The effect added a ton of replayability and surprise to The Binding of Isaac.)
Beyond that level, the stretch goals aren't so desirable to me.
Hmm I have to agree I think in some areas in might lack slightly without those goals met. Also I think that the $300,000 goal is quit important and town events could add a lot more to the game, I hope we reach it and beyond.
Post by: Neonivek on February 10, 2014, 02:48:54 pm
and like a lot of kickstarters it even has stretch goals that seem to make the game sound even worse (Rent-a-Hero)
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 02:55:43 pm
300,000 is around where the stretch goals stop mattering as it is the last one I even care about.
and like a lot of kickstarters it even has stretch goals that seem to make the game sound even worse (Rent-a-Hero)
Kinda reminds me of that feature Shadowrun Returns wanted to do, where player runners would be added to the pool of hireable runners. They eventually didn't end up doing that. I can't really see myself ever utilizing that stretch goal either. Why would I rent out my heroes so another player could wreck them?
Post by: Neonivek on February 10, 2014, 03:02:45 pm
It is basically a... SOCIAL FEATURE!... Where you are rewarded for other people using your stuff.
Like Dragon Dogma.
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 03:05:29 pm
I think nothing bad happens to your hero.
It is basically a... SOCIAL FEATURE!... Where you are rewarded for other people using your stuff.
Like Dragon Dogma.
Yeah. That'd kind defeat the whole purpose of leveling your own heroes. I agree I'm not being on Social! features for their own sake. That's time and money that can usually be spent on a better, non-social experience.
Also because I didn't mention it before: Love love love the look of town, with the dungeon squatting behind in the background. Very cool.
Post by: Zangi on February 10, 2014, 04:30:30 pm
Don't knock the feature till you see how they plan to utilize this social feature... (Though, it would be kinda funny and also utterly fail to send a character and have em come back totally messed up from it. Or maybe they could implement it in an awesome way... who knows.)I think nothing bad happens to your hero.
It is basically a... SOCIAL FEATURE!... Where you are rewarded for other people using your stuff.
Like Dragon Dogma.
Yeah. That'd kind defeat the whole purpose of leveling your own heroes. I agree I'm not being on Social! features for their own sake. That's time and money that can usually be spent on a better, non-social experience.
Also because I didn't mention it before: Love love love the look of town, with the dungeon squatting behind in the background. Very cool.
Spoiler: Quote from Dev regarding the Exclusive Backer Class (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 04:48:38 pm
If they want it, it's their prerogative. Social features have the unspoken effect of guerrilla-marketing a game too. But unless there's a Co-op or multiplayer bullet point to give it a reason for being, I consider it a concession to the social media obsession that has no purpose other than to perpetuate itself.
Post by: Zangi on February 10, 2014, 05:07:58 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 05:15:01 pm
Ah, I guess I'm pretty capable of ignoring social features when I don't want to use em...
I work in software. So I see features in terms of "time well spent/time not well spent." When a completely superfluous feature gets added to give the appearance of social connectivity, I can only see it in terms of what else might have been done with that time to make the single player experience better.
Post by: nenjin on February 10, 2014, 07:23:31 pm
-Are you guys going to do NPCs? Because it'd be a great throwback to RPGs of yore, Bard's Tale, Final Fantasy, ect....if that 5th slot could be filled by an NPC. Perhaps the rescue object of a quest, a hired mercenary, something summoned by spell or item to aid you. You'd have no control over their actions. Expanding on that, if it were a quest NPC, what if they were a sniveling coward already sick with fear from their time in the dungeon and you have to drag them back to the entrance while they slowly poison morale with their ravings and whinings. Or what if summoned creatures/help come with their own traits that, while you don't build on them as you do the other characters, nor do you control their actions, they still bring effects to the table that you have to factor into your survivability estimates. NPCs being randomly generated with more positive and negative traits the higher level they are would be a nice wild card to throw in. Especially if you meet them in the dungeon and can make a tactical choice whether or not it's worth upsetting the party balance you've created to have them join you. In most games, that'd be an easy question to answer. Either they're unequivocally adding to your firepower or they're jeopardizing your survivability. But in DD, depending on when you meet them they might be the thing that gets you out alive, or the thing that crippled your heroes more despite being victorious.
-Secondly, I finally noticed character color customization on the stretch goals......at $250,000. Far be it from me to question what you guys think a feature is worth or would add to the cost of development but....ouch. While the campaign is cleaning up now, I prognosticate that is out of reach. (Although how amazing would it be to be wrong on that score.) I noticed someone else asking if character names are going to be customizable, and in lieu of any other real character customization options, that's definitely a must to me. While there's the cool factor of players latching on to iconic names they find, in my experience, most name lists in RPG and action games are woefully inadequate and nothing makes my hackles go up like seeing repeated names. As an alternative to letting players customize names in game, simply exposing a file that the game draws character names from so we can add to it would work too.
Also....$50,000 :D
Edit: Wow, I didn't realize there was a cinematic trailer up on Gametrailers.com
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/dgbmph/darkest-dungeon-exclusive-trailer
I'm glad I saw Trailer #1 first, as I think the concept hooked me as a gamer, where as the Gametrailers one hooks me as a lover of horror.
Either way, it's still a great trailer and I appreciate the exposition in contrast to the other. You guys make some awesome trailers.
Post by: Zangi on February 10, 2014, 08:02:16 pm
As for the trailer... the gametrailer one sucks at hooking me.
The one from youtube is where it is at. Probably cause the lament of the adventurers speak more to me...
Post by: hemmingjay on February 11, 2014, 03:47:32 am
It's hard to make a prediction in the first 48 hrs, but I will say they are likely to hit $275k-325 unless they get multiple articles from RPS. RPS would push them well over $500k and is the only way to reach the dream that is seven figures. Good luck to them! Backed.
Post by: Zangi on February 11, 2014, 10:24:34 am
Post by: nenjin on February 11, 2014, 10:30:03 am
My estimate is the game will pull in between $113,000 and $150,000. I'm lowballing it, especially with so many days to go and pledge total still quite low, but I'm going on games like Rivercity Ransom Underground. Also good, solid titles with name recognition that didn't go 1000% funded. I'd like to be wrong with, so we'll see.
Post by: Shadowgandor on February 12, 2014, 11:17:54 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 12, 2014, 11:22:25 am
Well happy days.
My estimate is the game will pull in between $113,000 and $150,000. I'm lowballing it, especially with so many days to go and pledge total still quite low, but I'm going on games like Rivercity Ransom Underground. Also good, solid titles with name recognition that didn't go 1000% funded. I'd like to be wrong with, so we'll see.
Seems like you went to low nejin haha new estimate ? :D
Post by: nenjin on February 12, 2014, 12:07:48 pm
I still think $150K might be the limit, but only if funding tapers significantly in the next day. Otherwise, hemmingjay's prediction is seeming more accurate.
Just goes to show, never underestimate a good idea.
Post by: Dohon on February 12, 2014, 05:08:17 pm
Post by: Neonivek on February 12, 2014, 07:57:14 pm
Quote
Secondly, I finally noticed character color customization on the stretch goals......at $250,000. Far be it from me to question what you guys think a feature is worth or would add to the cost of development but....ouch
Hi, I see you are new to Kickstarters but... Stretchgoals that are 10 minutes of extra programming... is fairly standard.
Heck I still remember this one game, that I was actually interested in, where two of the stretch goals are a single uninteresting enemy added to the game that they ALREADY did the model and animations for. (But in their defense... they were more used as mascots for what was often the larger feature in a future stretch goal)
Heck often I have a suspicion that some stretch goals are features they just planned the entire time or just easy to add features only created so as to not over-inflate the production time.
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2014, 12:24:27 am
Also something to never be underestimated: having a working prototype that you can show off during your campaign. I wonder, how much of their own money did Red Hook spend prior to the campaign? (They probably said in one of their interviews, but since PA articles seem to be account walled I can't read them ><) I wonder if the money they spent ahead of time to make the game can be expressed as a ratio of what it earned them during the campaign. Because if that's a formula you find is applicable to a lot of successful Kickstarters....I think it'd be good for the whole system. It'd encourage talented people to run stronger campaigns by doing work ahead of time....and it'd reduce the amount of idea people that don't have the talent pool to achieve their goals if it's a principle people came to understand.
Post by: Intrinsic on February 13, 2014, 03:33:32 am
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2014, 05:45:15 pm
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/p08bxe/darkest-dungeon-the-minds-behind-the-madness
20 minutes of Chris and Tyler really just laying it all out. You could see gameplay pretty well in your head based on the prior info, but this crystallized it for me.
There's so much additional detail about what's planned in this video that I can't really do it justice. Here's the broad strokes.
-The core gameplay loop. Send heroes into the dungeon. Collect treasure, party items and relics (for upgrading town.) Heroes gain Fear and develop Quirks. Return to town. Upgrade town. Upgrade heroes. Try to mitigate fear and afflictions. Send heroes into the dungeon.
-Sandbox emphasis. The sandbox is really the player's "account" and their progress in town. The player contains all their gold, relics, equipment, stable of heroes and town upgrades. You have resources that you'll use to build your first party and outfit them with gear and provisions. From there on it's about what they find adding to your pool of resources. You might work a certain party through nastier dungeons before stopping, turning around and recruiting another party and taking them through the earlier dungeons, so your roster of better heroes is larger. The intent is for you to mix and match classes, specializations of classes, and their quirks and flaws. Setting up a particular party to do "treasure runs." Or you might build your party with your best heroes just to do a quest you've not yet attempted. This isn't really a game where you play the earlier game, muddle about in the mid-game and then milk the end game. Every portion of it can remain useful while you play, can be exploited by different combinations of class and party and traits. This sandbox mentality manifests in other places too. The light levels of the torch increase how dangerous and rewarding things are. Certain paths in the dungeon cause the torch to run down faster, but might be shorter. You can continue to explore after your torch running down, at greatly increased risk and profit. So they said they imagined 3 Merchants and a Tomb Robber, doing speed runs against lower level dungeon areas for quick cash. It all kind of comes together, pulling in various player choices and actions, and a healthy dose of randomness, to arrive at the whole.
-Level-less system. This one really intrigued me. Red Hook says there are no levels as they typically appear in other games. How good a character is, is a combination of factors, governed by the closest thing characters have to a level: their Resolve. Basically, resolve measures their ability to deal with the horrors and terrors of the dungeon. (I think resolve is basically an ever growing pool for Fear, making it take longer for your heroes to reach their breaking point.) Every time heroes successfully exit a dungeon (ie. didn't flee screaming like cowards), their resolve gets a little bit better. Given enough time and enough runs, the character can go through a lot without completely breaking down on you. It cuts the other way too. If the party flees the dungeon in defeat, they don't earn any resolve, because they haven't really learned to cope with what they're facing out there. (They also mentioned something about dropping their gear, which might mean you don't get any rewards.) But regardless of succeeding or failing, they've still done and seen a lot. They've gotten afflictions, they've had positive qualities develop too. This is what stops you from taking a brand new hero into a nastier dungeon: they're simply not prepared mentally to deal with what they're going to encounter, and even if they survive will probably come out an emotional wreck because they just went straight to getting Afflictions within a few encounters.
-Character specialization. Characters supposedly have a number of skill points, which you can invest in their different abilities. They focused on the Highwayman for their example. He's got a front row attack that is a high damage blunderbuss shot. He also has abilities to shoot his pistol from the back ranks. You might choose to train these skills equally, making him well rounded, or specialize one. So specializing in his blunderbuss attack you might switch him in boss battles to the front rank to deliver the coup d' grace, your DPS oh shit button. They also mentioned the Bounty Hunter's ability to hook enemies in the back rank to pull them forward. Specialization isn't limited to combat though. There's also Camping and Exploration skills you can work on. So the Highwayman might be good about scouting corridors ahead of the party, or the Jester might be really good at restoring party morale while camping. The Vestal might be a great cook and increase party morale better through meals while camping. Combined with the sandbox design and procedural dungeons, this is fertile ground for replay.
-Quirks, Afflictions and Virtues. So I believe the loop goes like this. Character takes hits to morale (or more appropriately gains Fear) due to various things happening: being critted, random events in the dungeon, investigating stuff that might hurt or help you, ect.... When their Fear is maxed out, their resolve may be tested. As a result of failing or passing this test, they develop a Quirk. Quirks come in two flavors, Afflictions and Virtues (not sure if that's what they call the positive ones or not.) If a character fails a resolve test, they develop a negative quality. They might become fearful, paranoid, hateful, irrational, ect....If they pass, they might develop a positive quality, like Stalwart or Hard-hitting. Characters that gain a Virtue or Affliction enough times start to form a preference for it, representing their character's inner-self showing through. These traits eventually become permanent parts of their personality, manifesting when stress becomes the greatest. This, along with resolve, is basically DD's leveling mechanic. But rather than just an experience number, it's the sum total of all the things the character has been through. So in a way, you have to put heroes at the most risk for psychological collapse if you want them to gain virtues, because only when people are truly tested do they develop noble ways to deal with their fear. It's not even really about sorting out of the cream of the crop of your heroes. Characters stand an equal chance to develop afflictions as they do virtues. So it's not really a matter of "getting heroes with virtues and no afflictions." It's a matter of getting heroes with virtues who have afflictions you can live with.
-In the Darkness, Hope. Red Hook really stressed that, because DD is a game built on tragedy and lethality they had to provide the players a lot of outs to combat how harsh it can be. These "outs" take many forms, although some do come with a price. Like the ability to flee the dungeon while dropping all your gear, and possibly developing an affliction like cowardice. Camping represents one of these outs, as it's a chance to mitigate the party's mounting fear. Town recovery and affliction curing represents another "out." And then there are the virtues. As explained above, when your character has their resolve tested, sometimes the nobler, hardier parts of their character come to the fore. The Crusader might, instead of going catatonic with fear, become emboldened when his back is against a wall, and buff the whole party's morale in the process. They also mentioned that are no TPK (total party kill) events or things of that nature in the game. Combats can be lethal to the whole party, but there is no one choice that will doom every member or I think even instagib one character. The game is about death by degrees for the most part.
Suppositions
-All this leads me to believe that DD will have a (relative to other RPGs) flatter power scale. Characters won't balloon dramatically in HPs forcing monsters to do the same. There won't be a steady stream of Armor and Sword +1 to purchase to keep up with the power scale, although there will be plenty to find and use I'm sure. Undoubtedly bosses and monsters will get tougher to kill and hit harder in later game dungeons, debilitate heroes faster. But what will improve on your characters' end other than training in their skills and possibly virtues isn't clear. Anyways, I think the game will require a different approach to risk than most RPGs because it's about attrition rather than split second catastrophes (combat withstanding.) There's no potions or I think even typical healing spells. And even if there are, character psyches aren't as easily treatable and the choice to address them directly costs you in other areas (camping more often just to deal with fear and not manage your torch level eats into your supplies and ultimately how far you can explore.)
-20 hero limit is too small, or is the kind of thing you should upgrade. Between classes, their specializations, their proclivities and fate, I'm going to want a lot of backups.
-Tactical trade offs are going to be a big part of what this game is. I suppose if you're very diligent and careful, the game can be a lot closer to easy mode. You stick to brighter corridors, camp often, retreat before it's an absolute route, change heroes frequently so they don't get too damaged, and farm lower level missions. Conversely, you can push your luck in a lot of areas. Torch light primarily, but also party composition, how much you try to treat afflictions, how well provisioned your party is, what in inventory you devote to what, ect....
-This game will probably swallow a good portion of my life when it comes out.
In other news, they're standing firm on the backer-only exclusive class. They reasoned it was a mistake, but it's borderline unethical to their 1200 backers who will get it to change the reward now. On the other hand, those non-Mighty 1100 backers can still find the Crest of the Mighty 1100 in the dungeon. Members of it will simply start with it available.
Lastly, the reversed the color customization and town events stretch goals. Color customization is now unlocked at $300,000. I don't deny their rationale for it, as explained here:
Quote
RE: Colors
It's actually a fair amount of work. Every playable character has upwards of 10+ poses, and each pose is broken up and rigged in order to do the animations when they are idling, combat idling, and walking. We'd need to generate a mask for each pose, and one for each of the anim cutout sheets, then apply that in-game to adjust the color. Existing source art would need adjusting, additional coding would be required, and we'd need to implement a UI for color selection as well as a palette of 'legal colors' (no pink crusaders!).
As the artist, I definitely *want to do it, but make no mistake, it's work.
-Chris
But it still kinda sucks. It's no doubt harder to do that than write some code and a list of events that fires off in town. But that's why I ultimately still want color customization more. Because I know it's going to make my experience better, customizing every hero, than an occasional event that shows up in window on the screen and applies some effects. I mean, town events could do something wholly unexpected (like a Carnival event you could interact with and do more than 1 thing at, a blood moon that makes the next dungeon trip more dangerous.) But in order for that to be more time-viable than color customization...it'd have to remain pretty straight forward.
Post by: RedHookChris on February 13, 2014, 06:32:30 pm
Just wanted to pop in and thank you for the support & welcoming us to your forum!
There's been a lot of cool ideas and discussion floating around this thread :)
So far the KS is going very well - admittedly better than we imagined! Nenjin's summary of our mechanics is by and large accurate, and we'll be rolling out more granular detail as backer updates during the campaign.
Also: A special Class Featurette + announcement is going live on GT tomorrow, and I'll post the link here!
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2014, 06:52:44 pm
Really hoping you guys can get forums going soon so all these ideas can get condensed into one place. Now I'm off to convince a surly, rivet-counting WWII gaming forum to back this.
Post by: motorbitch on February 13, 2014, 07:22:54 pm
hwoever, this "merchant" thingy, with purely utility party members, i was thinking like:
yeah, sure good to know that guy, but why wouldnt i just have him waiting in town?
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 13, 2014, 07:49:29 pm
ive seen that gt video, and there realy is a lot of stuff i like.
hwoever, this "merchant" thingy, with purely utility party members, i was thinking like:
yeah, sure good to know that guy, but why wouldnt i just have him waiting in town?
I like the idea of a merchant class, you could think of them as greedy and willing to risk their life's to get the treasure inside the mansion.
One thing I really want to know is if the heroes will have physical afflictions as well e.g. Missing limb
Post by: motorbitch on February 13, 2014, 07:53:43 pm
why would i take that guy with the missing limb with me?
i would
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2014, 07:58:46 pm
ive seen that gt video, and there realy is a lot of stuff i like.
hwoever, this "merchant" thingy, with purely utility party members, i was thinking like:
yeah, sure good to know that guy, but why wouldnt i just have him waiting in town?
I like the idea of a merchant class, you could think of them as greedy and willing to risk their life's to get the treasure inside the mansion.
One thing I really want to know is if the heroes will have physical afflictions as well e.g. Missing limb
Well I saw in one video a Crusader had a Wandering Eye affliction. So the precedent for physical afflictions is there at least. But it'd be a little weird for for a guy to freak out at the darkness and, like, lose an arm. It's doable but I sense it's not in the current affliction schema to any noticable degree.
Post by: Aoi on February 13, 2014, 08:01:45 pm
given the fact that this is a rather dark game... and im more a treasure hunter manager then a sole suvivor...
why would i take that guy with the missing limb with me?
i wouldgive him some extra money andretire him.
Post by: Dohon on February 15, 2014, 05:08:05 am
Quote
Currently we have the following heroes confirmed for the game:
Plague Doctor
Crusader
Vestal
Highwayman
Bounty Hunter
Leper
CLASS REVEAL on GAMETRAILERS.COM - coming within the next day! (Soon!)
Mystery Class - HINT: "Why so serious?" (Dohon thinks: Jester)
Mystery Class - ? ? ?
Mystery Class - HINT: He's worth his weight (Dohon thinks: Tombrobber)
Mystery Class - ? ? ?
Lord Tier Class Design - Even we don't know yet!
Houndmaster ($90k Stretch)
Stretch Goal 175k Hero #1
Stretch Goal 175k Hero #2
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios/posts
A really nice set, if you ask me. They talked about the Tombrobber, Bard and Jester before and i read something about a Man-at-Arms and a Barbarian (although that slot might be filled out by the Hellion, see below). But that leaves some more slots to fill. They are 10k away from 175.000, so, pretty sure we'll see those extra heroes too.
EDIT:
Seems the new class featurette is also online. It talks about the classes revealed so far (minus the Houndmaster) and reveals a new hero, the pagan Hellion.
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/nspumz/darkest-dungeon-class-breakdown
Leper looks intruiging. Resistant to fear and afflictions, but not easy (impossible?) to heal his wounds.
Tell me, why isn't this game out yet?
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 15, 2014, 05:37:35 pm
ive seen that gt video, and there realy is a lot of stuff i like.
hwoever, this "merchant" thingy, with purely utility party members, i was thinking like:
yeah, sure good to know that guy, but why wouldnt i just have him waiting in town?
I like the idea of a merchant class, you could think of them as greedy and willing to risk their life's to get the treasure inside the mansion.
One thing I really want to know is if the heroes will have physical afflictions as well e.g. Missing limb
Well I saw in one video a Crusader had a Wandering Eye affliction. So the precedent for physical afflictions is there at least. But it'd be a little weird for for a guy to freak out at the darkness and, like, lose an arm. It's doable but I sense it's not in the current affliction schema to any noticable degree.
I was thinking more damage happening in battle rather than them literally having the limbs scared off them :P for instance your highwayman taking a critical hit to the face leaving him horribly scarred and unable to see out of one eye or something like that.
I also hope that character modules change with what weapons and armour are equipped as well.
Post by: Aoi on February 15, 2014, 06:13:58 pm
Well I saw in one video a Crusader had a Wandering Eye affliction. So the precedent for physical afflictions is there at least. But it'd be a little weird for for a guy to freak out at the darkness and, like, lose an arm. It's doable but I sense it's not in the current affliction schema to any noticable degree.I was thinking more damage happening in battle rather than them literally having the limbs scared off them :P for instance your highwayman taking a critical hit to the face leaving him horribly scarred and unable to see out of one eye or something like that.
Well, it's entirely possible that in a bout of panic, somebody drops a dagger straight into their foot. Or stabs the guy next to them in the eye...
Post by: nenjin on February 15, 2014, 06:28:57 pm
So Tombrobber, Jester are for sure. I'm not sure if the Man-At-Arms is his own class or just what they were calling the Crusader prior to the reveal. There's also the Merchant, but they weren't for sure if they'd do a pure utility class or not.
I'd appreciate something vaguely wizardly, although it seems like straight up magic is going to get short shrift in this world.
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2014, 12:38:14 am
That just leaves the Tomb Robber, Jester, Merchant and the Backer Class.
So,
Man-At-Arms
Crusader
Leper
Helion
Highwayman
Tomb Robber
Houndmaster
Bounty Hunter
Vestal
Plague Doctor
Occultist
Jester
Merchant?
Lord Class.
And I suppose the backer class also counts as another. That's quite a class list.
Post by: Dohon on February 16, 2014, 03:09:18 am
Red Hook, I want to throw money your way. Get that paypal link running! :)
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2014, 03:14:25 am
Quote
It will be a nightmare to balance all of them, ensuring that none of them are overpowered or 'generic'.
I'm not sure outright balance will be so much an issue. Two factors going for it: a) it's framed as a sandbox which kind of undercuts the need for stringent balance (on paper.) b) there's no core leveling mechanic along with tons of stats to balance. It's relative to power scale but I think it's going to be less difficult than what a lot of RPGs set themselves up for.
As for how generic each class is....hard to say. There are several avenues for characters to be useful. Whether combat or non-combat is what ultimately matters most is where the real balance is at. But so far it looks like each class has one to two core gimmicks that define them. The Crusader's crusader-y abilities, the Highwayman's gun, the Bounty Hunter's grapple, ect....
I think in the end the fact it's envisioned as a sandbox is going to excuse a lot of balance issues. Sort of like most roguelikes where there's easier class/race combos to play the game with, and more challenging ones that people are encouraged to play when they want it tougher.
Post by: Dohon on February 16, 2014, 05:28:59 am
But that's balancing, really. :)
Post by: ScriptWolf on February 16, 2014, 09:16:21 am
Post by: motorbitch on February 16, 2014, 09:20:06 am
the classes dont need to be equaly strong. there is no pvp anyway, and weaker classes just make for a greater challange.
so, the only thing that has to be made sure balance whise is, that there are no classes (or combination of classes in this case) that make the game way more easy then intended.
Post by: Dohon on February 16, 2014, 01:35:32 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuCUII7eDn4
Post by: sambojin on February 17, 2014, 07:39:06 pm
I'm not sure if that's what they're going for, or if heroes are just on loan or what, but it sounds like the twisted sort of challenge that a lot of people at bay12 would love. How messed up can we make these poor SoBs and still have them functional as heroes?
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2014, 07:41:19 pm
Post by: sambojin on February 17, 2014, 07:55:54 pm
I'd actually like a proper trading system. It'd be more fun collecting the (un)ultimate team of gibbering idiots for yourself (and for trading purposes) than just borrowing some friend's boneheads for the occasional mission. Loaning them isn't nearly as cool as real trading in this sort of system (which I'm envisioning as a football management sim + sensible soccer or something like a combination of ECW and WWE Smackdown, but more turn based). Anyway, I guess we'll see how it turns out.
Post by: nenjin on February 18, 2014, 07:53:06 pm
Hoping it can hit $300,000 for my precious colors, but I think it will push hard for $250k and probably fall off from there.
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2014, 12:37:08 pm
So the game just hit $200k! That means more content all around! I kind of expect the last dungeon will be an end-game, extreme challenge for players who have gotten through most of the game. (Possibly a new game+ kind of affair.)
While I'm still pining for the $300k stretch goal, to me this was the last truly important milestone that needed to be reached.
-edit-
Or not.
(http://i.imgur.com/oSJmzTg.jpg)
Quote
Inspired by the Shadow Over Innsmouth and the crossover of things maritime and ancient: the Cove. Expect a challenging, sickening, and wet dungeon environment filled with blasphemous rituals to aquatic Gods. Your heroes will never look at the ocean the same way again...
Kind of seems like a mid-tier, optional area.
Post by: Dohon on February 19, 2014, 03:10:19 pm
The game is ~$3k away a new dungeon tileset, monsters and the works, approximately a 20% increase in the amount of content. If you've been waiting to back, now would be a jolly good time to do it.
Hoping it can hit $300,000 for my precious colors, but I think it will push hard for $250k and probably fall off from there.
I'm not too sure that the campaign will stall after 250k, to be honest. Pledges continue to come in quite steadily and the final days just might bring in another boost. Not to mention the fact that the Paypal link (as soon as it's active) will probably bring in another 50k or so.
Of course, I'm holding out for the 350k goal. I loved the trailers. Story told in the same style? Hell yes! But I'll settle for 250k.
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2014, 03:44:22 pm
Put another way. I really can't conceive of cut scenes being more important than say, Steam Workshop support. Also, how exactly do cutscenes mesh with a replayable roguelike experience? I don't think it really does, other than firing the first time you enter a dungeon tileset, and at the game's end.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 19, 2014, 03:54:17 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2014, 05:41:41 pm
1. Chris, it was really inspiring watching you work. I consider myself artistic without ever really calling myself an artist; I've never really put in the time or discipline to hone what I can do or achieve some mastery of the tool set. But I've been working in GIMP (Photoshop's free imposter) for a few years (actually just spent this weekend creating star maps for a 40k Rogue Trader game I'm going to run) and it was really something to watch the way you work with layers. Maybe it's old hat for someone with a lot of time in PS, but it made me rethink how I do things and to do better shading work.
2. The Jester is now my favorite character. His look, his "backstory", everything about him. I think he really nails the theme of the game, equally if not moreso than the Leper.
3. I don't think you'll be having to re-learn digital painting because DD wasn't successful in its look. I can safely say the art is one of the lynch pins that holds the game together, and is what immediately drew people to the game. Here on the Bay12 forums we usually have the conceit that graphics don't matter that much (considering what DF is about.) But DD makes the case that the right style can elevate a game beyond where mechanics alone can take it.
4. Rethink running with less party members not mechanically being hooked into the game in some fashion. While you don't want to encourage people to run with less by, for example, making encounters less frequent or dangerous and getting loot easier......the phrase "There is no point to running with less than 4" doesn't really do anything for anyone. Consider that fewer party members would make less noise, not be as cramped in the corridors....and also have fewer party members to handle threats, mitigate stress, fewer hands to carry things and fewer friends to outrun if you flee the dungeon.
I just don't like the idea that there are no considerations relating to party size other than fewer is worse. It kind of sounds like a dead-end in design thought and so far you guys have done a really great job of not building NOs into your game. This is another one I think you should put a little time into, so that players can do things like 1 or 2 party member runs and not have it just purely be a thing Twitch gamers do for lulz, but have some actual tactical appeal.
5. Are there any thoughts for character traits that are not a) afflictions or virtues or b) character skills? For example. The Tomb Robber's ability to help the party avoid fights by being in the front rank. The Merchant's ability to increase gold returns from runs. Basically, are you planning on any class-wide abilities that generally inform what they do, rather than specific things to be trained, learned or gained through exploration? I'm imagining a little character panel that tells you about the class but isn't just speaking to the bullet points of their development, but general things they can do or effects they have.
6. When you generate names for the Houndmaster, it should really be for him and his Hound. So like, "Tarquin & Bartholomew" or "Akeley & Wilmarth."
7. I get why cinematics are on the stretch goal list now......you guys really do want to do a graphic novel. And you should! You've clearly got the skills to do it well! But there's a point where a game designer's desire for picturesque storytelling is in conflict with delivering fun to their audience. Anyone who considers themselves a writer and has also GM'd roleplaying games know this: you love your own prose and sense of place you're creating but that doesn't necessarily mean your audience is riveted by it, or feeling it as much as you are. I mean...look at the walls of text I generate.
So consider this. If you make the money to do cinematics, instead of going all out and littering the game with them (which unless you're clever won't feature our characters...), why not pay Wayne June more money to narrate over the gameplay itself! Shamelessly rip off Bastion, but you don't have to go to the degree it did. What if when a character became afflicted, the game grabbed the gender of the character and the affliction type. And then we could hear Wayne June belt out something like "Fear clutched his heart like a steel gauntlet, and his weapon slid from numb fingers" or "Hunger gnawed at her belly, clawing fingers of fire tearing into her stomach. Sullen, shamefully, she turned to the rations while the others slept and gorged in darkness......"
I think it achieves several goals. #1, it converts actual gameplay into a semblance of a cutscene. You may not have the artistic freedom to frame things the way you want, but it utilizes the fact your in-game art and your out of game are mostly identical. Add a liberal dose of that melodic, tortured voice Wayne has and you've basically got 50% of a cutscene right there almost.....Secondly, it makes OUR characters the focus of the action. You're not breaking immersion by going to a cutscene and showing default characters, asking the audience to imagine their characters approaching that door, doing that thing.....it's our guys, because Wayne June is talking about them! And thirdly.....moar Wayne June! Fourth, since I assume our characters and their barks will not be voiced, it keeps some sort of vocalization in the game. Wayne June as your guide, your narrator and the chronicler of your doom.
Some things you'd need to do it. It'd need to be random when he talks. Otherwise you use too much of a good thing and it becomes bad. It also allows you to cheat a little bit, and not have him voice every affliction or virtue. That way the player never really knows when he's going to speak or not, and it's a shock or surprise when he does.
There are some downsides. You don't get to draw or be director as much. The amount of voice work for him multiples dramatically.
Virtue x2 for Gender, x? for variation.
Affliction x2 for Gender, x? for variation.
But somehow I think this is what I've kind of been wanting in my head since the start. And I can say I will get far, far more mileage out of that several dramatic, lengthy cut scenes. He really is a source of flavor that could be put to use in a lot of extra ways, to add a sense of narrative to gameplay without having outright narrate cutscenes. Even little flourishes, such as "And they stepped down into the ruins beneath the manner" when you first enter a dungeon. Or if you flee the dungeon he might say, before you cut back to the town screen "They ran, breathless and trembling, the talons and eyes of the damned at their heels."
Post by: Zangi on February 19, 2014, 07:29:46 pm
7. I get why cinematics are on the stretch goal list now......you guys really do want to do a graphic novel. And you should! You've clearly got the skills to do it well! But there's a point where a game designer's desire for picturesque storytelling is in conflict with delivering fun to their audience. Anyone who considers themselves a writer and has also GM'd roleplaying games know this: you love your own prose and sense of place you're creating but that doesn't necessarily mean your audience is riveted by it, or feeling it as much as you are. I mean...look at the walls of text I generate.This is a pretty awesome way to do it.
So consider this. If you make the money to do cinematics, instead of going all out and littering the game with them (which unless you're clever won't feature our characters...), why not pay Wayne June more money to narrate over the gameplay itself! Shamelessly rip off Bastion, but you don't have to go to the degree it did. What if when a character became afflicted, the game grabbed the gender of the character and the affliction type. And then we could hear Wayne June belt out something like "Fear clutched his heart like a steel gauntlet, and his weapon slid from numb fingers" or "Hunger gnawed at her belly, clawing fingers of fire tearing into her stomach. Sullen, shamefully, she turned to the rations while the others slept and gorged in darkness......"
I think it achieves several goals. #1, it converts actual gameplay into a semblance of a cutscene. You may not have the artistic freedom to frame things the way you want, but it utilizes the fact your in-game art and your out of game are mostly identical. Add a liberal dose of that melodic, tortured voice Wayne has and you've basically got 50% of a cutscene right there almost.....Secondly, it makes OUR characters the focus of the action. You're not breaking immersion by going to a cutscene and showing default characters, asking the audience to imagine their characters approaching that door, doing that thing.....it's our guys, because Wayne June is talking about them! And thirdly.....moar Wayne June! Fourth, since I assume our characters and their barks will not be voiced, it keeps some sort of vocalization in the game. Wayne June as your guide, your narrator and the chronicler of your doom.
Some things you'd need to do it. It'd need to be random when he talks. Otherwise you use too much of a good thing and it becomes bad. It also allows you to cheat a little bit, and not have him voice every affliction or virtue. That way the player never really knows when he's going to speak or not, and it's a shock or surprise when he does.
There are some downsides. You don't get to draw or be director as much. The amount of voice work for him multiples dramatically.
Virtue x2 for Gender, x? for variation.
Affliction x2 for Gender, x? for variation.
But somehow I think this is what I've kind of been wanting in my head since the start. And I can say I will get far, far more mileage out of that several dramatic, lengthy cut scenes. He really is a source of flavor that could be put to use in a lot of extra ways, to add a sense of narrative to gameplay without having outright narrate cutscenes. Even little flourishes, such as "And they stepped down into the ruins beneath the manner" when you first enter a dungeon. Or if you flee the dungeon he might say, before you cut back to the town screen "They ran, breathless and trembling, the talons and eyes of the damned at their heels."
Post by: Mephansteras on February 19, 2014, 07:32:21 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 20, 2014, 10:57:21 am
Quote
@Justin & everyone -
Morning! A quick heads up that our plan is actually already to have Wayne provide color commentary as you adventure, akin to what Bastion did, though perhaps less frequently. It won't impact the cinematics, it was already scoped into the 'core' game @75k.
-Chris
Wewt June.
Post by: nenjin on February 27, 2014, 07:12:19 pm
http://darkestdungeon.com/buy/
Things to note:
This is a DRM-free option.
You will NOT be able to participate in the Early Access portion of the game. Early Access will only be done through Steam.
Post by: nenjin on February 27, 2014, 09:22:48 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQe1QXjISNQ
5 minutes, explaining and showing combat.
-There are in-battle heals. They're minor, so far, but there's a couple varieties.
-Enemy attacks are often restricted to different marching orders. It's unclear whether player characters are. That'd kind be a drag if, for example, losing a party member hurt you double because you not only lost an adventurer, but some skills couldn't be used as well. (Your back rank Occultist suddenly can't do his big back row attack for the rest of the crawl.)
-Animations are a little basic. No death animations for example. While it's easy to go overboard and commit to too many animations, I think one where the component pieces of an enemy just kind of fall apart and to the floor, as they fade into shadow, would be better than them just simply disappearing.
Post by: Dohon on March 02, 2014, 09:32:12 am
So for those of you who can't/didn't want to do Kickstarter, you can now buy any of the digital packages from their website via PayPal. The order will be fulfilled through The Humble Bundle Store.
http://darkestdungeon.com/buy/
Things to note:
This is a DRM-free option.
You will NOT be able to participate in the Early Access portion of the game. Early Access will only be done through Steam.
Actually, the DRM-free option is something that all backers can decide on when the game releases. Both Kickstarter and Paypal pledges will get you a copy of the game and Early Access (provided you pledge at least 20 USD). You will need a Steam account for Early Access, the full version of the game does not. More info here (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios/posts/758277).
That said, I just pledged for the Digital Patron package. I really believe in this game and cannot wait to get my grubby little hands on it.
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2014, 05:43:12 pm
Darkest Dungeons has reached $250k between Kickstarter and Paypal. That means stuff like THIS will happen:
(http://i.imgur.com/1cvSVxE.jpg)
Can it hit $300K? If it gets that last minute funding push of goodness, there's a chance!
Post by: Levi on March 07, 2014, 05:55:47 pm
Questions answered, wishes fulfilled. Occultist and the Man-At-Arms are the two reveals.
That just leaves the Tomb Robber, Jester, Merchant and the Backer Class.
So,
Man-At-Arms
Crusader
Leper
Helion
Highwayman
Tomb Robber
Houndmaster
Bounty Hunter
Vestal
Plague Doctor
Occultist
Jester
Merchant?
Lord Class.
And I suppose the backer class also counts as another. That's quite a class list.
That is an awesome class list. More games should do classes like this.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 07, 2014, 06:00:16 pm
Post by: UristMcDwarf on March 07, 2014, 06:03:30 pm
That is an awesome class list. More games should do classes like this.
Just curious, what are classes "like this"?
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2014, 10:53:06 am
Anyways, the Kickstarter is in its twilight hours, just under 40 to go. The game is about $25,000 away from the color customization stretch goal, probably less with the Paypal monies.
If you've been dithering, quake with indecision no longer, go to the Kickstarter page and pledge your very soul to the Darkest Dungeon.
Post by: Dohon on March 12, 2014, 04:19:57 pm
Also, 350.000 not only entails cinematics, but integrated Steam Workshop support as well. All cool and dandy. But in my book, the most valuable stretchgoals (with regards to Gameplay) have already been reached. Everything else now is a bonus.
But like the great Nenjin has said, pledge now! Give your soul to the Darkest Dungeon and enjoy horror in ways you have never experienced before!
Post by: Yoink on March 12, 2014, 05:12:09 pm
As if having to use Paypal for so many things wasn't bad enough, now I'm supposed to make a new account on some other site? ???
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2014, 05:13:21 pm
Argh. I really wanted to pledge to this, but what the heck is this 'Amazon' business?
As if having to use Paypal for so many things wasn't bad enough, now I'm supposed to make a new account on some other site? ???
The specifically have a Paypal option for people who don't want to use Amazon.
Post by: Yoink on March 12, 2014, 05:22:04 pm
Unless I have to choose a different option on the main page, or something? As it is I'm on the payment page with no option other than 'Continue to Amazon'. I'd say it might be because I'm from a different country, but that wouldn't make sense because Amazon is an American thing to begin with, as far as I know.
Edit: Oh, I see. Do I have to use this 'preorder' option rather than the actual kickstarter? Would my pledge still be counted towards the overall goals?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2014, 05:24:02 pm
Post by: Yoink on March 12, 2014, 05:31:33 pm
Yay! Now, hopefully some people who aren't as dirt-poor as myself throw pledges in, too. I would have pledged a larger amount if I'd remembered to do it, say, a fortnight ago when I had a little more money. >.> I'm not used to Kickstarters yet.
Edit: Oh man, I love the art style so much. Just reading the update for the Town Events goal, and looking at that image showing the different 'dungeon' areas... oh man.
The setting is sort of putting me in mind of the unnamed town of The Goon, for some reason. And the art itself can't help but remind me of Mignola, although of course it's quite distinct. Definitely glad I came in here in time to pledge before the kickstarter ended.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on March 12, 2014, 06:56:40 pm
This is fairly interesting, I hope it works out.
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2014, 03:55:03 pm
Being $2k shy of $300,000, I think it's a safe assumption that the color customization stretch goal has been reached. Truly I didn't think DD would do as well as it has, and I'm happy to be wrong.
We can expect early access at the end of the year, with the full game releasing sometime in 2015. (Assuming they don't go a little longer, which most Kickstarters do.)
Post by: Yoink on March 13, 2014, 04:01:57 pm
Then again, that wouldn't be far off if it released in, say, December. :P
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2014, 04:10:04 pm
Post by: Yoink on March 13, 2014, 07:37:03 pm
I, for one, think character colour customization is a pretty damn cool feature.
Post by: dennislp3 on March 14, 2014, 10:21:25 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on March 14, 2014, 11:22:32 am
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2014, 11:49:10 am
Do we know if character sprites will change if we change weapons or armour ?
Doesn't seem like it. I imagine weapons might be displayed but with the effort described in color customization, fully reflecting gear seems unlikely.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 30, 2014, 01:44:49 am
It'll be something to tide me over for a bit, anyway. :)
Post by: Yolan on April 21, 2014, 12:16:34 am
Post by: Dohon on April 21, 2014, 01:42:48 am
This thursday, 18:00 Pacific Time, they will stream their PAX demo. The footage will be both archived and uploaded to youtube afterwards. Beyond that, they are shifting into "hardcore development mode" and there won't be a new update till may. Backers should receive an e-mail in the coming week(s) in order to confirm their shipping adress, order details, ...
Post by: Yolan on April 21, 2014, 03:13:53 am
I'd say this game is now my most-wanted #1.
Post by: Dohon on April 25, 2014, 02:08:26 am
The stream will also be uploaded on youtube.
Post by: Drakale on April 25, 2014, 09:54:35 am
Post by: nenjin on April 25, 2014, 01:53:27 pm
Other observations:
-Maybe it was the speed it was being played, but everything felt very fast. About the only thing that seemed tuned well were the damage indicators. Resist messages, dodges, morale up or down, those floaters seemed to go by very fast, especially if there was a smash cut effect triggered. (Traps especially. The spike trap has no message on the screen.) I feel like those could stand to hang out on the screen longer, fade slower, ect....
-Morale up/down is a little hard to visually parse. Probably because it's new to me, but still. When things are hitting the whole party the brain needs time to filter white-bordered black going down versus black-bordered white going up.
-I felt like all the automated play (afflictions, stunned turns, monsters) was again a bit too quick. I kinda felt caught up in the whirlwind of things happening because they were going by so quick. Maybe that's by design, so you start feeling the stress piling on the as the player. It's not that I couldn't follow it, I just wasn't having enough time to have a reaction to say, a crit, before 2 or 3 other things are starting to happen. If the goal of the speed of things not under player control is to demoralize them by rapidly piling on calamities, I think that was accomplished.
-So I think a play speed setting will be really important. My brother is the guy who would always turn animations off and crank play speed up. I like a bit more sedate pace, so it'd be nice if all the damage and message floaters could be part of that.
-Like I said, overall, I like the pacing of the game. Combat looks satisfyingly quick and yet procedural. The out of combat UI seems snappy too.
-I'm a little.....eh? on gear being mostly bought straight from a vendor, in a progression. While I get that resource management is a big focus of the game, there has to be a variety of rewards in the dungeon. When it's only: gold and stuff to sell, provisions and firewood, the odd trinket to equip and ancestral treasure, it starts seeming a little cut and dry from the rewards side. So I'd strongly encourage you guys to make some room along the way for found weapons and armor. Sidegrades, halfgrades, to the progression in town that can be found in the dungeon. Because you know backers creating items are thinking about weapons and armor just as much as they are tomes, rings, necklaces and tentacles. I mean, why not apply the same trade off philosophy in trinkets to gear? Take the Dirk, mid tier Highwayman weapon. Atk 8. Take off 2 Atk, Add 2 Def and 1 Prot. Now it's the Main Gauche, a mid-tier defensive Highwayman weapon that only drops in the dungeon as loot. I realize the implications of adding a whole 'nother series of weapons and armor to the schema. But even if it doesn't have the assets to support all the variety, mechanically I think it will give your game a longer lifespan and add that level of mystique, where you're never quite sure as the player where the ceiling of design is. I'm just the sort of player that, when they can firmly see the edges of the box a game loses something, and I got a sense of that when the things that can be found in the dungeon were really spelled out.
-I think the combat sfx could stand to be punchier, and have a little more variety. (Bearing in mind this is 4 of all the game classes, and 4 of all the monsters.) Sword slashes and gun shots sound good, but the spell effects are sort of wishy-washy tinkling sounds and whooshes. While the sfx are all high-quality, I felt like a lot of them lacked impact.
-Love the Affliction and Empowered visual effect when it triggers.
-Also, darkest_command_line. LOL.
Post by: motorbitch on April 25, 2014, 02:08:36 pm
this doesnt make much sense to me. also, i think replenisch hitpoints after battle would make balance the fights more easy, while stress and affections still provide a mecanic that increases the tension during longer runs.
Post by: Knirisk on April 25, 2014, 02:53:20 pm
why can the healer heal in the heat of battle, but not while walking around in the dungeon?
this doesnt make much sense to me. also, i think replenisch hitpoints after battle would make balance the fights more easy, while stress and affections still provide a mecanic that increases the tension during longer runs.
They can heal at campfires much more effectively, at the cost of Firewood. Personally, I think it's a good thing. It keeps the pace and tension of the game flowing. You'll be a lot more tense if your team is at half health rather than topping them off after every battle like an average RPG, not to mention that the amount of time necessary to heal most of or your entire party would cut into the tension as well. This obviously doesn't count for campfires, since those are specifically designed to give the player (and the characters) a break and a temporary ease in the tension.
They also stated that they wanted an average amount of time spent in a dungeon to be about 30 minutes. That means that the average dungeon probably isn't going to be too much larger than the demo dungeon they just showed. Probably twice its size at maximum. This doesn't count for the harder dungeons, of course.
In addition, the demo showed that, while stress and afflictions are important, they aren't as important as I first believed. Although, that's probably more my fault than theirs. I had previously assumed afflictions to almost render the individuals useless or near-useless.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 26, 2014, 05:01:11 pm
I love the tactical camping.
Post by: sambojin on April 26, 2014, 06:02:59 pm
I'm hoping it will be like that anyway.
Post by: Knirisk on April 26, 2014, 09:46:00 pm
I think the stress related side will probably come into play a lot more in a longer campaign. Not only will you have to deal with "stress damage", but also have a far higher chance of that setting off something disasterous due to a long list of previously accrued afflictions amongst members of your adventuring crew. That's on top of things that will be set off normally (doesn't like rats/undead/blood/darkness/your plague doctor) and party management stresses outside the dungeon (alcoholism/needs to pray/still doesn't like your plague doctor).
I'm hoping it will be like that anyway.
I only hope it won't take the X-COM route and force you to restart your entire campaign if you fall too far behind. That would really irk me.
Post by: Yolan on April 27, 2014, 02:34:07 am
I'm just the sort of player that, when they can firmly see the edges of the box a game loses something,
Excellent comment. This is at the core of what I found so attractive about the original Diablo. There is no need to go crazy, but making it possible that some trinkets/weapons may only be found if you are lucky means that the game is always holding something back. There is always something that might surprise you.
Ditto on finding things running a bit fast. For example, the speed at which the adventurers walk along the hallways needs to be slowed down at least 30% or more in my opinion.
I also noticed that the party getting hungry and needing to eat occurred as an event at one point only a short time after they had feasted while camping. Seems kind of strange that you would need to be eating -that- much while in a dungeon that, after all, only consists of a handful of rooms and a few corridors. Food spoilage also seems a bit hard to believe. Maybe instead re-writing it as being blighted by something and hence spoiling, because at the moment it kind of seems as though it just went past its used by date.
Post by: nenjin on April 27, 2014, 05:14:23 am
Hunger as an event though, I agree seems out of place. Especially right after camping. Hunger should be added to the pool of events when the party hasn't camped in a while. Otherwise it seems like you're getting double taxed on food. (You eat it as a necessary part of managing health and stress. Spoilage implies something out of your control. But the party suddenly getting ravenously hunger after just eating? A little weird.)
Post by: Cthulhu on April 29, 2014, 04:03:55 am
That happened to me a bit when they just spelled out the dungeon equipment. Like, bringing supplies is cool. Bringing supplies because there's a chance of an event that's explicitly articulated as a check to penalize you if you didn't bring a specific item, then I'm not in the dungeon anymore. I'm playing a game. It's not a pickaxe or a cavein, it's a gold tax and a random check to see if you paid your gold tax.
This is the kind of game that would do well, for me at least, to keep its man behind its curtain.
Post by: nenjin on April 29, 2014, 10:11:33 am
Quote
That happened to me a bit when they just spelled out the dungeon equipment. Like, bringing supplies is cool. Bringing supplies because there's a chance of an event that's explicitly articulated as a check to penalize you if you didn't bring a specific item, then I'm not in the dungeon anymore. I'm playing a game. It's not a pickaxe or a cavein, it's a gold tax and a random check to see if you paid your gold tax.
This is the kind of game that would do well, for me at least, to keep its man behind its curtain.
Yep, same here. As soon as I started hearing about dungeon loot, I started processing it as a system. Food and torches are your adventure limiters, pick axes and rope are preparedness checks, gold and amulets and what not are adjunct profits. Leaving....trinkets? There's gotta be something else going on, some other thing to put into the mix. Why not "party items", like for example, the skull of some demon that, while you're carrying it in your inventory, simulates some of the same effects that a low torch level does. Or an item with a nebulous and hard to see benefit. For example, a book of holy prayers that, while it does nothing visibly, actually slightly increases your chances for a "heroic moment" versus developing an affliction. (Maybe an OP example, but you get the point.)
Especially with how Redhook seems to enjoy the concept of tradeoffs, there's a lot that could be done with dungeon loot besides a) money b) things to extend your dungeon crawl c) trinkets.
When I see 4 walls of design around the game, a little part of my enthusiasm dies. My example of this not happening would be like....Final Fantasy 6, and the Cursed Shield. It's things like that which keep the dream alive that you as the player don't know everything, haven't seen everything and haven't figured it all out. That kind of mystery is vital to the long-term health of the game. Especially in a game with such a narrow format (you've got town, and you've got the dungeons. That's it.) With zero walking around, and with rewards a known quantity, that basically shifts what the player cares about to things that aren't known quantities, which is the next dungeon, the next enemy, the next town upgrade.
Post by: Sensei on April 29, 2014, 10:27:10 am
Post by: Zangi on April 29, 2014, 10:37:55 am
Post by: nenjin on July 05, 2014, 03:06:27 pm
Post by: Vector on July 05, 2014, 09:19:19 pm
Post by: ghostetler88 on July 06, 2014, 12:22:41 am
So what's up Red Hook? You guys have been pretty quiet other than the Twitch streams since the end of the Kickstarter. Time for an update?They actually just posted a Kickstarter update on Sunday; it deals with the brigands stretch goal. Basically just outlines a couple of types you'll run into and what their function is in the dungeon. The also announced an unofficial fan site/forums that can be found at darkerdungeon.com (http://www.darkerdungeon.com).
Definitely nice to hear something from them. They have been pretty quiet since the end of the Kickstarter campaign, but I've just been going on the assumption that it's due to them being crazy busy actually working on the game. Still, I wouldn't mind slightly more frequent updates.
Post by: nenjin on July 06, 2014, 03:20:35 am
Post by: motorbitch on July 30, 2014, 09:03:13 pm
the last blog entry is the announcement of the (very sucessfull) kickstarter campaing. it ends with the words "More to come soon!" and is 7 month old.
as much as i like the artwork and everything ive seen from the game so far, this kind of non communication is excactly what i do not like to see in crowdfounded projects.
Post by: nenjin on July 30, 2014, 10:24:55 pm
should definitive communicate more.
the last blog entry is the announcement of the (very sucessfull) kickstarter campaing. it ends with the words "More to come soon!" and is 7 month old.
as much as i like the artwork and everything ive seen from the game so far, this kind of non communication is excactly what i do not like to see in crowdfounded projects.
Agreed. Radio silence is not something I find acceptable. Although most devs seem to take the attitude that it's somewhat a backer's responsibility to find where their dev is posting. (Twitter, Facebook, personal forums, ect...) I sort of need devs to post updates to remind me about their game, because I'm juggling no less than 10 different games in my head at the same time, and people who go quiet tend to get bumped off my attention.
Post by: Zangi on July 30, 2014, 11:17:23 pm
Post by: Dohon on July 31, 2014, 03:31:11 am
Links to all the nuggets:
Twitch Stream on IndieMegaBooth (done every thursday at 7PM, EST) (http://www.twitch.tv/indiemegabooth)
Fan Forum (http://darkerdungeon.com/forum/)
Massive thread that consolidates all info on Darkest Dungeon (http://darkerdungeon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42)
Post by: motorbitch on July 31, 2014, 06:21:23 am
im not that involved, and just see if i find something new on the main website once in a while.
Post by: hemmingjay on July 31, 2014, 07:08:29 am
Post by: nenjin on July 31, 2014, 09:24:33 am
I can throw a rock and hit the development team. Seriously, they are like 10 blocks from my own development office. I have spoken to them a couple of times and they are a nice crew but very young in every sense of the word. I love their aesthetic and they literally bring art to everything they touch. It's their strong point, and hopefully it makes up for any other shortcomings.
Go acquire us some seekrit sauce and report back!
Post by: nenjin on August 17, 2014, 04:04:08 pm
A few screenshots showing off the Weald, the forest "dungeon", a dark and corrupted woodland. The second screen shot shows off a catacomb, purpose unknown.
(http://i.imgur.com/RzNNQMm.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WPfODqs.jpg)
The inhabitants of the Weald number crones, zombie dogs, a lumbering warty giant, huge spiders with horns and spikes all over them in red and green varieites, a mushroom man sort of thing, maggots, gelatinous goo filled with the bones of adventurers and a weird spider/corpse/mushroom thing.
Dungeons are also now procedurally generated! They need some work still as one dungeon was just a long corridor. But dungeons are now BIG, man, offering you way more chances to die even just trying to find a boss room and complete the quest. They mentioned that previously explored corridors are somewhat safer. The known encounters are dealt with and torches burn somewhat slower traveling through them. But there's still random events and ambushes that keep it dangerous, in addition to resources you use.
They're showing off a whole new group of characters: The Helion, the Bounty Hunter, the Grave Robber and the Occultist.
The Helion: Strong front row fighter. Focuses on damage, speed and aggression over taking hits exceptionally well. Can inflict bleeding damage, knock back or stun opponents.
The Bounty Hunter: Melee/Utility midrank fighter. Can pull enemies forward with one attack, mark them for extra damage with another, and then deliver powerful attacks against a marked target.
The Grave Robber: Lightly armored utility mid to back rank fighter. Can deal ranged damage from mid ranks, lunge forward with a good chance at a crit and fade into a rear rank while trying to stun their opponent. Her utility skills outside of combat aren't really featured.
The Occultist: Back rank spellcaster/healer. Has debuff spells to weaken the enemy, a light AOE he can throw from the back rank, and a healing
spell which may or may not function correctly depending on how well he incants it. (Can cause bleeding in addition to healing wounds.)
They added a new mechanic called Death's Door. What it means is, if you take a fatal amount of damage, you're "at Death's Door." Any further damage will kill your character dead, regardless of how much it does. It's intended to prevent you from getting 1-shot critted by some of the harder bosses, and give you at least 1 turn to try to do something. But, in the demo example, the character who was at Death's Door was also bleeding, and so when they're turn popped, the bled and died. (Amusing a KILLING BLOW animation played.)
While it's still alpha and a lot of prompts and flavor and sound and what not are missing...a lot of the game flies by pretty fast. Because some of it is automated, I feel like at the current speed animations and everything play at, if you glance away you can conceivably miss something. I'm hoping there's animation and speed controls in game, and perhaps you have to click through a lot of the prompts like "Spike Trap!" It's telling in the Twitch stream I watched that even the developers miss some of what happens because the game just moves along at a good clip.
Early Access is still planned for Q4 2014, AFAIK.
Post by: sambojin on August 18, 2014, 11:19:39 am
Of course, it can go the other way. The amount of FTL streams I've watched where I just want to slap the player for being oblivious to the obvious is getting rather ridiculous. Of course, if my own games had a viewing audience, no doubt they'd feel the same.
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2014, 10:23:05 pm
An hour of the gameplay demo they were showing at Pax. Lots of sound effects are in now, including the dulcet harmonies of Wayne June narrating stuff as you play, semi-Bastion style. I really dig the combat music. You can optionally control the party with the directional keys now, which is nice because you're able to enjoy the art and not trying to keep up with the stream of gameplay happening. They show off the different town buildings too, places you can rest and recoup in different ways, upgrade heroes, recruit new ones, ect.. All good stuff.
Bigger announcement is their rough release date, which is mid 2015, with Early Access starting a while before that. Wish it'd be sooner, but I'd like the best game possible.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 05, 2014, 07:26:21 am
Post by: motorbitch on September 05, 2014, 09:56:32 am
i realy hope they improve the ai a bit. the enemies seem to act completely random. like attacking the hightest hp character wile another one is at 1hp. enemies also seem to use their skills at random - like blighting or nuking targets that are almost dead.
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2014, 05:17:53 pm
Post by: motorbitch on September 05, 2014, 06:35:33 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on October 27, 2014, 03:13:51 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 27, 2014, 05:00:21 pm
Post by: Zangi on October 27, 2014, 05:13:03 pm
Post by: Retropunch on October 27, 2014, 05:43:49 pm
Super excited for Darkest Dungeon though.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but a very similarly themed game is Monsters Den:
http://armorgames.com/play/13132/monsters-den-chronicles
That (and it's prequel) are pretty much the only flash games that I've really, really enjoyed and come back to.
Post by: Arcvasti on October 27, 2014, 05:47:22 pm
Post by: Muz on October 27, 2014, 07:52:56 pm
Thought you'd be interested in this, "Epic Manager", a "football manager but D&D". Seems to have more focus on interacting with the world then this, but similarities abound. Here's an RPS article http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/27/dungeons-dragons-talent-scouts-epic-manager/#more-244927, and here's the kickstarter. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1106152318/epic-manager-create-your-own-adventuring-agency
Wrong thread lol. I think Darkest Dungeon's core appeal is mostly in the feel and atmosphere of the game. Whereas Epic Manager has a very lighthearted approach to adventuring. Darkest Dungeon brings characters to life, Epic Manager seems to have a "whoops Fighter was wounded! :)" feel.
Post by: nenjin on January 05, 2015, 04:41:48 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 05, 2015, 06:57:21 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 11, 2015, 05:41:21 pm
Post by: SharpKris on January 11, 2015, 09:00:29 pm
Post by: Yolan on January 12, 2015, 03:27:45 am
Post by: Recluse on January 20, 2015, 07:55:41 am
Post by: puke on January 20, 2015, 09:32:12 am
Post by: nenjin on January 20, 2015, 11:07:54 am
There's artifacts and heirlooms to be found in the dungeon. Recovering them allows you to upgrade what buildings can do for your heroes, or to unlock the buildings in the first place. There's no like, town design. It's really just an unlock scheme.
Post by: puke on January 20, 2015, 12:27:36 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 28, 2015, 04:05:47 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 28, 2015, 06:34:12 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 28, 2015, 06:39:01 pm
Friday for the Exceptional Post-Human backer release.
Will include...
Quote
“The current Early Access build is playable with 3 complete dungeon environments (Ruins, Weald, and Warrens), 10 character classes, 9 town building types, 5+ quest types, 30+ monsters, 130+ items, and more than 30 interactive dungeon objects. There is currently no end to the game in Early Access, so players can keep raising heroes and embarking on quests indefinitely. The full version of the game will have an end to the story.”
Post by: Intrinsic on January 30, 2015, 03:23:32 am
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 02:33:08 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 02:57:17 pm
Got my keys from the Humble Bundle. I'd be diving right in but I'm still at work. (And apparently my work laptop's onboard video is so shitty it can't handle OpenGL 3.1) I'll get down and dirty in the dungeon later.
There was a humble bundle?! Aaaaah!
Apparently you can buy it on the humble store right now. Would that give me early early access? I'm gonna die, I can't wait till Tuesday. There will be nothing left of me come tuesday
Post by: Sindain on January 30, 2015, 02:59:18 pm
And then I tackled the first dungeon with a party consisting of two plague doctors and two of the cleric girls. It didn't go well.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 03:01:51 pm
Got my keys from the Humble Bundle. I'd be diving right in but I'm still at work. (And apparently my work laptop's onboard video is so shitty it can't handle OpenGL 3.1) I'll get down and dirty in the dungeon later.
There was a humble bundle?! Aaaaah!
Not an actual humble bundle. Lots of Kickstarter devs like to use it to distribute keys though, until they're full on available through Steam.
I have no idea if buying off the Humble Bundle will give you access right away or not.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 03:18:36 pm
I'm passing this forbidden secret on to my dorf frands:
It's not accessible through the humble store search or anything but it's still there. Here (http://www.humblebundle.com/store/darkestdungeon_earlyaccess/Dkwodkfhj2) you can buy the game and get early early access (early being right now!) for 20 bucks.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 03:22:31 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on January 30, 2015, 03:43:12 pm
Haven't seen the camp mechanics yet. Firewood hasn't been for sale yet. Maybe that just shows up later?
Post by: Zangi on January 30, 2015, 03:45:59 pm
(I don't remember what tier I put in for, I guess I'll know when I get home.)
Post by: Biowraith on January 30, 2015, 04:09:48 pm
Re: Firewood, only certain missions allow you to use Firewood and they provide it for free. At least, that's how it's been for me so far.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 04:19:54 pm
Post by: flame99 on January 30, 2015, 04:21:19 pm
Post by: el Indio on January 30, 2015, 05:17:28 pm
It does! It does and this is the best day of my life.
I'm passing this forbidden secret on to my dorf frands:
It's not accessible through the humble store search or anything but it's still there. Here (http://www.humblebundle.com/store/darkestdungeon_earlyaccess/Dkwodkfhj2) you can buy the game and get early early access (early being right now!) for 20 bucks.
I just tried the link and it didn't work, I guess they weren't supposed to start selling it until Feb. 3rd.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 05:18:58 pm
That just means I got lucky! Yyyyessss!
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 05:36:29 pm
Post by: pedrousz on January 30, 2015, 06:50:45 pm
the heroes concepts seems pretty good, actually, nice to see they at least attempt to evade mage knight archer types
also, not sure if i love the idea of the game or it is all aesthetic desires
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 08:03:30 pm
First off, wow, intense cutscene. Between the frantic action and Wayne June's dulcet death march on the English language, it leaves quite an impression. The flavor is exquisite, almost over the top with how....what have they been saying...overwrought it is. Because I like the genre, I think Wayne June's narration surpasses that of Bastion's narrator, for richness and delivery.
I got two drastically different results out of the tutorial. One I came through with the Highwayman at 1 hp, the other I skated through with maybe 6 damage on each guy. If you hate highly random games, this is one of those games, where things can really swing wildly. I had one bandit dodge 4 attacks in a row, then he and the Highwayman exchanged 4 rounds of combat with each other where I dodged constantly and ultimately won the fight.
Town ended up seeming a little smaller than I thought it would be.
Post by: Zangi on January 30, 2015, 08:27:48 pm
Atmosphere is pretty spot on.
I've not once yet managed to complete a scouting mission. Nor have I been wiped once... but I have lost a number of people. Either way, I at least have gained either money or experience from my failed expeditions. Saving grace, recruits are free, making them better is all about the hazing. I guess some of them will get worse before they get better though...
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 08:37:29 pm
Game just crashed due to an error with piles of rubble (Man, FUCK piles of rubble) so it's time for impressions!
I'll go over the basic gist of how the game is actually played:
The game's turn-based in the dungeoning and the metagame, each meta-turn lasts one week. You get new dudes, you can do stuff with your dudes, and you can end the week with an adventure. And by can I mean you have to, which sucks, because sometimes you are in no shape to do that. You'll often find yourself going on hopeless excursions just to scrounge up enough gold to make the next quest maybe possible.
For expeditions, basically there's five dungeons. The ruins are obvious, full of undead and cultists and typical dungeon shit. The warrens are the sewer system under the manor and they're full of terrifying pig men. Then there's the weald, I dunno what's in there except the bosses are witches. The cove is currently unavailable and the DARKEST DUNGEON is as well. You'll get two random quests each week and you pick one to take, ranging from exploring 90% of the dungeon's rooms to clearing out all the monsters.
It's hard. Dungeoneering is expensive and when you add in the other costs it's common to just not have enough money to succeed. You go in with two torches and no food and you're not going to win but there's no option to skip a week. You've got a pretty large roster of characters available and you have to take four on each expedition. The rest can chill in town and do various things. The abbey and tavern allow recuperation from stress. Characters have various predilections about how they reduce stress (One guy might love the brothel, another might refuse all but prayer). There's also a sanitarium that allows you to remove negative traits such as the aforementioned obnoxious prayer thing, as well as a blacksmith and a trainer who can upgrade characters. All of this costs a lot of gold which you probably don't have. Don't be afraid to dismiss broken characters early on. If your level 1 dude gets fucked up it's not really worth spending five or six weeks and thousands of gold getting him back in shape.
Combat's fun but likewise hard. Repeated victories can keep your guys going but when it rains it pours and it rains a lot. One misstep can cause a spiraling catastrophe. To loosen things up slightly and add more fun with madness, you dont' die at 0 hp. Instead you're at death's door and subsequent damage has a chance to kill you based on your stats. You can be healed to recover though. When heavily stressed characters have to make sanity checks which will usually result in bad things (Reynauld becomes abusive and shit-talks people whenever they make a mistake, further stressing everyone out. Meri becomes paranoid and refuses help, whispering doom to the rest of the party) but occasionally a character rallies for a substantial boost.
In general it's a game about death and doom but it's also a game about triumph against impossible odds. If you're the kind of person who must succeed in everything you do then you'll probably hate the game. Human skill is inadequate against the darkness, you need miracles, sacrifice, and heroic inspiration, and that only happens when things are hopeless.
Even when things are good you know it won't last forever. Darkest Dungeon and This War of Mine both taught me the most terrifying thing of all about life:
No matter what you might think, the worst day of your life is yet to come.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 09:28:47 pm
I don't like how boxed in by some of the rules you are though. Some of them also seem to not make sense. You can flee the dungeon and keep a lot of loot, even though the game implies you're don't get to keep it. I don't like how all your provisions are stripped at the end of fleeing. Maybe that's where they get you for running away. That alone though makes the game tough, because that's at a minimum 500 gold you're not getting back.
The fact they won't let you camp right from the outset is also kinda fucked. The game is excruciatingly hard without that mechanic. Healing is nearly impossible, even with a couple dedicated healers in the party. It's too weak vs. how much damage you're going to take in a fight, due to how long they can go on and the liberal application of bleed and blight. You can't eat food in combat, and eating it out of combat gives you up to an earth-shattering 2 points of life back.
So while I'm loathe to ask for an easier game, shit's gotta be a little easier than this to start out with. Like Cthulhu said, you end up doing micro runs, trying to strike a balance between money earned and heroes getting fucked up. I almost managed to reach the boss room in my last run, but a last minute stress shit storm and afflictions put paid to that attempt.
And on that note, FUCK Selfishness. Your character does everything from dis people's kills in jealousy, giving them a bigger stress hit than stress relief they got from the kill, to opening their gob at the end of some fights and deal everyone a hefty amount of stress. They'll say other shit in combat at random, giving everyone a nice big stress hit. And THEN they'll downgrade stuff you let them loot. I had an heirloom chest get reduced to a torch and like 50 gold. Fuck. That. Shit. There's dogpiling, and then there's just overkill. Compared to Virtues, which are 1 bonus of a sort, afflictions can deal you penalties in multiple ways.
So I think the way the game is currently going to go is...you're going to find a couple heroes you like and focus on taking very good care of them. The rest will essentially be cannon fodder. You won't spend down their stress, you'll dismiss them when they're crippled by afflictions and bad quirks.
The fact that stress relief is so expensive to start out with, AND you it takes a week, AND you can't skip a week, basically makes stress your biggest problem in the game. Stressed characters usually get afflictions that will fuck your whole party up. The only saving grace are virtues, which if you get one of those early on, is quite a solid. Still. If the game is this hard to start out with, I shudder to image how it goes later on.
Lastly, I'm not really a fan of heirlooms. I thought they were going to be kinda one off and special....they're a mass of different tokens. I like the idea, just not how it ties into upgrading the village, or how it's executed with amassing tons of busts, crests, documents and portraits. It's just weird and I dismiss them rather than pay attention.
So I really like this game but I think it definitely needs to lower the entry barrier. Because if you get stressed by repeatedly getting gang fucked by the mechanics, this game is going to make you frustrated. If you can't succeed at your first runs the entire game effectively gets longer as you agonizingly drag yourself to having enough money and decent heroes to spend down stress and pass weeks without hurting yourself further. It's to the point I'm ready to scrap a game of several hours because I've got a stable of max stress newbies, where you can easily lose someone in the very first fight.
I know they wanted it to be hard. I didn't realize they meant every run to basically be a suicide mission.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 09:44:05 pm
Just had a run I was sure I was gonna win. Had a fresh leper and hellion (both awesome classes by the way), made it through without much trouble, feeling pretty good. Scout out the last zone, one more fight before the end. It's bandits. We get basically hundred-to-nothinged, completely destroyed.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 09:49:47 pm
Also just randomly giving you stress while you're walking around, while thematic, is just another knife in your back. At least save that shit for the really weird places.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 10:09:51 pm
Sanity broken heroes will very rapidly ruin the entire party's sanity.
Post by: el Indio on January 30, 2015, 10:16:26 pm
(Reynauld becomes abusive and shit-talks people whenever they make a mistake, further stressing everyone out. Meri becomes paranoid and refuses help, whispering doom to the rest of the party)
Can any adventurer receive any affliction? Or is it sort of pre-set to fit with the personality of the character class? Also it was mentioned by the developers that sometimes characters will dislike other heroes. If this is implemented, is it random or will (for example) the graverobber always dislike the plague doctor?
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2015, 10:17:55 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 11:15:21 pm
I think the Quirk gains at the end of a run are definitely tied to events in the Dungeon. I think they'd be well served by pointing that out to the player, otherwise the connection between what they've been through and how they've evolved feels a little more arbitrary and less thematic. Something like "Caused by Maggot Crits" as a tool tip.
FINALLY beat the first Apprentice Mission. Several factors contributed. 1. I got an absolute buttload of crits which kept my stress way down and kept my health totals up. I left with everyone at less than half stress and health. 2. I had a Vestal and a Healing Crusader. That allowed me to milk some fights for probably a total of 8 or so HP for everyone over the course of the run, and on top of all the crits, helped me keep my life totals up. 3. I kept my light absolutely maxed out the whole time. It took about 4 torches to get through the whole thing in one piece, or 300 gold. 4. I had at least 3 empty rooms rather than treasure rooms. Those treasure room fights can be nasty. 5. I got a handful of super easy fights. Spiders and Maggots by themselves are weak and easy to deal with before they start causing you lots of problems. So the early game isn't unwinnable, but it's all highly random. And the net gain from the rolls coming up in your favor is far, far less than the net losses you get from bad runs. That said, you DO get a very nice chunk of total gold after completing, which makes it all a little more bearable.
So what do you think about classes so far Cthulhu? Jester seems.....YOLO? All his strongest attacks are from the front two rows which is a terrible place for him to be. His main attack puts him in front rank. And one of his key note abilities debuff him for seemingly not a lot of effect. I haven't seen all his skills, but he's a weird quirky fighter who doesn't seem that great next to the actual warriors. Crusader is just rock solid. Stun is the basis of dealing with a lot of nasty big guys. Even works as a battlehealer in a pinch, and the ability to remove stress is very nice if you can find the time to use it between heals or fighting. Bounty Hunter is just a fucking beast, deals good base damage and Mark/Collect will fucking wreck anything it hits. Plague Doctor doesn't seem to bring a lot to the table. Her support abilities can fail, and her offensive abilities are all DoTs or something of that nature. She has zero stopping power. I think I'd rather have a Vestal, if I'm going to take a character that doesn't do a lot of damage. The Vestal is...ok, I guess. It's nice being able to shave off 3 or 4 damage a fight with her heals, since this game is all about attrition. She's got a backrow stun and a couple other tricks. She's not a dramatic contributor to success but I think she helps. The Highwayman is just a great all around damage dealer from almost anywhere in the ranks. Nothing fancy, just single and aoe damage and a base attack that causes bleed, which is a nice perk. Haven't had a lot of time with the Helion or the Leper yet, and I've only dabbled in the Occultist. Honestly, compared to a lot of fantasy games, casters seem very underpowered in this. They don't deal a shit load of damage in a game where you need stuff to die ASAP, and all their abilities are either severely limited (like their heals) or subject to failure (Plague Doctor/Occultist.) Maybe they show their strengths as they level up. Grave Robber....I'm torn on. Scout is amazing, it's really helpful especially if you want to know whether it's worth continuing, or bailing out now. On the other hand, her abilities kinda suck IMO. She's got a self buff for dodging, a back row blight attack, and a fairly mediocre 2 or 3 row enemy midrow ability (basically the Highwayman's Grapeshot with more restrictions and less damage.) And that dodge back move. I dunno. You could get a far harder hitting character that can chew through the front ranks from position 3 like the Bounty Hunter, rather than her who nances about throwing knives to underwhelming effect. Again, haven't seen all her abilities but...she's also the one that went selfish on me and turned into a raging bitch, so I might be holding that against her.
I think a good place to invest your heirlooms immediately is the cap on how many heroes you can recruit each week. A constant stream of warm bodies that can fills gaps left by convalescing veterans is useful in just getting through a week. And maybe you'll get lucky and roll up a basically solid party that can win its first time in like I did. Second I think would be decreasing the cost of your recovery options. Some of them have some pretty big drawbacks. You get like Spd -5 in the next adventure for using the Brothel. If you have two or three characters use that, that is a huge disadvantage in the Dungeon. The AI is mean enough to target the weakest members of your party (most of the time), so letting all three or four of them go first can lead to a lot of snowballing catastrophes in one turn.
I think I need a little break. This is the kind of game where the stress actively makes you want to step back from it for a while.
Post by: Sindain on January 30, 2015, 11:43:19 pm
I also desssperatly need paintings, can't actually make use of my higher level hero's cuz I don't have enough paintings to upgrade the guild.
@Nenjin, if your using Bounty Hunters a lot you should consider combining them with Occultists, since Occultists can mark enemies with curse of vulnerability.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2015, 11:58:02 pm
Until they go fucking bonkers, at any rate.
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 01:14:36 am
1. Hero's can gain perk combos that make it impossible for them to relieve stress in town (such as god fearing plus witness).
2. Hero's can't go on missions two levels below them >.<
Post by: nenjin on January 31, 2015, 04:13:04 am
Quote
2. Hero's can't go on missions two levels below them >.<
Wonderful. :|
They should just make an easy mode and give an achievement for playing it their way. The way you're pressured into things in several places in the game is not quite to my taste.
Post by: jhxmt on January 31, 2015, 08:49:45 am
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 09:01:18 am
Anyway, the other classes.
Leper is a front line dude. He has very low dodge but ridiculous HP. He's slow and has low accuracy but he hits like a fucking truck and can boost his accuracy if you can spare the turn.
Hellion is a pretty standard damage dealer with one substantial upshot, she Iron Swan which is a 100% damage move that hits the back row. Of course that stops being useful as soon as the rearmost enemy dies.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 31, 2015, 09:37:16 am
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 10:18:00 am
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 11:18:53 am
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 11:32:00 am
EDIT: I've been having some success (like actual, unqualified success) with a crusader, bounty hunter, graverobber, and vestal. All four of them have stun moves (Graverobber's actually gets used a lot since enemies love to pull her forward.) Mostly we spam stuns while the graverobber takes shots with pickaxe and daggers, until they're weak enough that we can go offensive and finish them off.
Post by: Elfeater on January 31, 2015, 04:07:40 pm
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 04:16:45 pm
I may have missed it, but how did you guys get the game?
You need to be a backer, 20$ or more. If you are, you should have gotten an email with a link to the humble bundle store.
Otherwise, you can buy into Early Access on Monday.
Post by: Elfeater on January 31, 2015, 04:23:40 pm
Post by: UristMcDwarf on January 31, 2015, 04:30:56 pm
I may have missed it, but how did you guys get the game?
You need to be a backer, 20$ or more. If you are, you should have gotten an email with a link to the humble bundle store.
Otherwise, you can buy into Early Access on Monday.
tuesday*
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 04:58:29 pm
Also fuck bandits. When I see bandits I usually assume I'm going to lose.
Post by: Zangi on January 31, 2015, 05:33:58 pm
All you really need is to upgrade the caravan so that you get 4 recruits every week. (I think it is pretty hard to 'lose the game'... since you have all the tools to claw your way back after a big loss.)
At the very least, on success you will make back the money for sending your main party for stress relieve and have a few more building upgrade items.
I havn't made it too far in my game, have not beaten the first necro boss yet either.
My starting Crusader, Reynauld has been sent to the Sanitarium many times... he just keeps picking up bad habits. The God Fearing loon even just picked up Witness. Back to your cell.
The other starter, Dismas the Highwayman has been picking up some awesome virtues though.
EDIT: Damn... level 3 characters cannot go to level 1 dungeons. Challenging bosses will be a tad bit harder...
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 05:41:12 pm
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 06:13:15 pm
I beat the necromancer. Pretty scared of the swine prince but the best thing to do might just be to spam your hardest attacks and say yolo
The apprentice necromancer seems pretty easy compared to the other two, I beat him on my first try with little problem. The other two completely stomped me when I tried them.
When I tried the Swine Prince I made sure to bring all my best pull abilities and tried to take out the little guy behind him, but the little guy just did a stun + move back ability whenever I tried. N' being in the 2nd rank didn't stop the Swine Prince from 3 shooting my entire party.
Post by: nenjin on January 31, 2015, 07:17:29 pm
-Let heroes go on whatever level adventures they want. They can still die anyways! Just dont' give them resolve experience for dungeons 2 levels beneath them.
-Cut the random stress frequency from being in the dungeon in half. I feel like I can't ever stop and appreciate anything because dawdling builds up stress. I think this is tied to a hero's resolve level.
-Apprentice missions could 1 or 2 tiles shorter.
-1 firewood should be allowed on all missions.
-Curiosities to investigate should not be a 70/30 mix of bad shit and mediocre rewards. It's to the point I skip most interactable objects.
-As Cthulhu said, the risks outweigh the benefits in this game it seems. Which is not a situation you want to have, because then only real masochists player your game and everyone looks at them like they have squid mouth when they try to say why they like it. Rewards are what entice people to keep playing, delve deeper and take risks. If you train your players to be completely risk averse because they've learned it's not worth taking one, you're basically just rewarding random YOLO gameplay, which is at the mercy of the RNG. And pushing them farther and farther into low-risk managed solutions to gameplay. Which, if devs aren't paying attention and misread their player's behavior, they nerf those solutions and shut the door even harder on people. There is a fine line between cleaving to your artistic/game design vision, and people not playing your game because you've pushed them out of fun and into frustration. "Funstration" is very hard to achieve, especially when the deck feels as stacked against you as it is in DD.
If DD's replayability strategy is to make it so godawfully hard you'll kill hundreds of heroes getting to the last dungeon, over the course of 60 hours....it starts feeling less like a game and more like a task.
Quote
Well, low level dungeons are farmable, by the virtue of free-to-hire units. It doesn't matter if they complete the mission or not. They just need to make it back with at least 1 of em alive. Survivors can be kept or thrown away. Remember, they are expendable. They will always make at least a minimum of 1-2k profit, in case you run away. Roughly 5-6k if you complete the quest. (Suppose that depends on how well you play with whatever party rolls you get.)
All you really need is to upgrade the caravan so that you get 4 recruits every week. (I think it is pretty hard to 'lose the game'... since you have all the tools to claw your way back after a big loss.)
Spoiler: Slightly meandering point (click to show/hide)
Also, I was a little underwhelmed by the graveyard. I expected visuals of some kind, like an ever expanding row of tombstones. I get it can't be infinite because we can keep getting heroes killed but...something better than just a list would be nice.
Someone said "Honeymoon" a couple pages back. I think that's not quite true for me. My honeymoon is in pre-release. Post release is where I very quickly assimilate what I like and then start zeroing in on where the game isn't fun for me. That's pretty much become my pattern for EA games. Bitch from EA to release in the hope it gets devs moving, then actually start addressing the game on final terms after release.
Anyways, that's a lot of bitching I'm getting out of my system, I expect, before I go to their forums.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 31, 2015, 07:34:41 pm
In general, golden combination is something like crusader-graverobber/highwayman-vestal/occultist-vestal/occultist. Lepers are a poor man's crusader. I think occultists are somewhat better than vestals, but just so. Highwayman seems more high damage than graverobber, but graverrobber is more versatile, I think.
Hellions and bountyhunters I have not tried yet. So I wont opinate about them.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 07:45:17 pm
Parity is what I'm looking for, yes. It's a horror game and ironically the worst thing for horror games is losing. Because then you have to do it again and it's not scary the second time. Thomas Ligotti got horror best and I'm trying to find his quote on it. The gist is that final chaos isn't scary, what's scary is the transition phase, the shift from a higher state of things to a lower one that hints at the final chaos. Being dead isn't scary at all, it's dying that terrifies us.
Lovecraft knew that even if he never said it. It's the basic narrative behind the Call of Cthulhu game and I'm assuming it's the basic narrative here even if it's currently obscured by excessive difficulty. Cthulhu destroying the world isn't scary. What's scary is facing Cthulhu, staring over the precipice of complete universal disaster and extinction. You muster every ounce of strength and courage you have to stop it. It costs you your health, your sanity, maybe your life and the lives of those around you, and it's just barely enough to avert catastrophe. You are used up, it's all you can do to tell your story and leave it for someone else to find because -- and this is the scary part -- it's not over. The fact of the existence of something like Cthulhu means it's never over. It will happen again.
tl;dr - Horror is dulled by excessive difficulty and failure. The game should be about courage and sacrifice in the face of seemingly impossible odds and right now the systems are not conducive to that. Remember, in the original story the humans wounded Cthulhu and forced him back into R'lyeh long enough for the stellar alignment to pass. Horror is about victory at a cost, not about losing. In gameplay terms this means that the rare good things that happen should be extremely good. If a character gets a reverse-affliction it should really be as good or better than three afflictions. This can sort of happen if your first affliction check is a boon. The boon will drop everyone's stress so much it can cancel a spiral. If the spiral's already going though it's just too little too late.
Oh, here's the quote
Quote
There is no horror in total chaos. Horror is located in the entropic transition from a greater to a lesser state of order on the way to chaos, with all the little collapses pointing toward the big one.
Enough talk about the philosophy, as far as gameplay goes here's a post I made in the DD forum about the stress issues I'm seeing.
I guess this is the right place to put this. On one hand I think it’s an oversight or a bug, on the other it’s majorly increasing difficulty.
There are some serious problems with the implementation of stress in the game, mainly in its interaction with certain situations. In most circumstances it’s okay. It slowly but steadily builds over the course of an expedition with occasional spikes when really bad things happen. The problem is that there are some tipping point situations which make stress impossible to manage and inevitably end in complete party collapse.
The biggest one is when people are at death’s door and poisoned or bleeding. If you heal him (to keep him from dying, obviously) then he goes back to death’s door next turn. This causes another wave of stress across the party, leading to a perverse incentive/negative choice situation where you have two choice and they’re both wrong. You can leave the guy and he’ll die, or you can heal him and watch him stress everyone out massively by going in and out of deaths’ door. Stress gains from death’s door should probably be adjusted, maybe it doesn’t stress people out again when he goes death’s door multiple times in succession.
The other big one is a problem in general where attack results are applied to everyone equally. When grapeshot blast or blinding gas misses, it misses everyone and becomes useless. Conversely, when a brigand fusilier crits with his aoe move, he crits everyone and causes the full stress gain for everyone. A multicrit like this can easily be 70 or 80 stress for everybody in your party, leading to the inevitable spiral where people get afflicted and then stress everyone else out, causing htem to get afflicted as well.
Lepers are a little wonky yeah. Their damage is enormous but that's really their whole thing. Leper is basically a walking giant sword. In my stun-stacking team I'm considering a leper in the fourth slot though. Vestal/Bounty Hunter/Highwayman-Leper/Crusader. Crusader, Bounty hunter, and vestal spam their stun attacks (Vestal also boosts light which is great) while the leper or highwayman does DPS. If everyone a hero can hit with his stun attack is already stunned, use an attack or heal or something. Worked pretty well when I used it, took out a fresh level 0 team and came out of it good enough to go right back in with the same four and do it again, this time with a medium dungeon.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 31, 2015, 07:49:56 pm
Put them in the 3rd spot with an occultist in the 4th spot and the occultist can heal and the plague doctor can stop any bleeding caused by it. They also can stun the back 2 enemies or poison enemies which stacks and can do some pretty good damage. They also heal blighted status
Jesters are also a lot trickier...but I find them to be pretty good damage dealers in the middle
so far the best part compositions seem to have an occultist, battle sister (forgot the name) both of which focus on heals and debuffs while the front 2 people are barbarians, highwaymen, crusaders, or lepers...upgraded lepers are amazing because they hit pretty consistently and can do some massive damage
I do like the combo of highwayman and crusader up front. The highwayman and crusader can swap spots with holy lance and the dashing attack the highwayman does which is good for if one gets pushed back or as a cycling attack
Post by: nenjin on January 31, 2015, 07:50:39 pm
Quote
Hellions and bountyhunters I have not tried yet. So I wont opinate about them.
At their base, they're lower DEF than the Crusader and Leper but just as beefy and hit harder from basically any rank.
Plague Doctor is meant as a debuff/support character, to be used in conjunction with the Vestal or Occultist. She's got some heals in her camping skills too. But yeah, her gameplay kind of implies you have it easy enough to have an entire ranked dedicated to removing bleeds and blights, or to whittle down those problematic back rank opponents. And that's not most runs.
The Jester I think is supposed to improve a lot as he levels his skills. I think he's meant as a pure melee glass cannon. But using half of his stuff puts him at great risk or starts requiring rank changes. I think he's in large part meant to set up combos too. You use his dirk, rush him to the front rank, then use that musical ability to decrease enemy accuracy? I think. So I assume he's there to tie up the enemy while your back ranks unload on them. You probably have to start drilling down into stat differences between classes to know what's up with him.
And yeah, there are definitely some mechanics that weren't thought through, like the Death's Door Stress for the party. Also, there's no point to reducing stress on people that have already become afflicted. I don't think? it can trigger twice in the same fight. But if it can it'd be the same issue. There needs to be some "trigger only once per fight" controls on stress causing barks and events.
Also, on graveyards, I don't really expect a 1:1 representation with tombstones will work. But imagine you go there and it's an image of that little landing of where the graveyard is, with a row of like 10 headstones. Along the right is the scroll menu with the dead in numerical order, and as you right click the panel you get a more robust slide out panel of info. Once you've got 10 heroes dead, another tombstone is added. Another at 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 ect.... until the graveyard is visually upgraded to the max. Maybe it gets a little more opulent and imperial along to way too. (Has anyone ever made the word opulent sound as good as Wayne June?) It'd be like doing visual upgrades on furnishings in any other game....except you're doing it with corpses!
Post by: UristMcDwarf on January 31, 2015, 07:52:24 pm
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 07:53:53 pm
I used to find lepers kinda lackluster, but after picking up intimidate on one of them I'm finding them quite a bit more useful. Still not sure if they're better than crusaders, but pretty good nonetheless.
Helions are rather nice at doing damage and are sturdier than many of the alternatives, I'm finding them to be one of my favorites for the 2nd rank.
A grave robber is one of my highest level heros, I mainly use lunge in combination with the backward move and stun ability. Though she really lacks in damage when related to my highwaymen and bounty hunters.
I rather like bounty hunters for their many move abilities and good damage, but all my bounty hunters seem to be rather unfortunate.
I'm really not sure if I prefer vestal's or occultists. Vestals have better stuns but lack the move abilities that occultists have. Though the bleed effect on wyd reconstruction increases as you level it up so vestals are probably better healers at higher levels.
One thing I've found to be rather important in being successful is having a party that can fight well in any formation, as this makes you much more resilient to ambushes and move abilities.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 08:10:31 pm
It's pure cheese but given the current state of the game I don't mind.
Post by: nenjin on January 31, 2015, 08:11:49 pm
Post by: UristMcDwarf on January 31, 2015, 08:15:40 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 08:22:32 pm
It's true, it's resistable, but you don't use it on big stuff. You use it on spiders and weak skeletons and such. Stuff that probably won't hurt too bad even if it does resist.
Spoiler: Bosses (click to show/hide)
I'm still experimenting with different options for the damage component of my stun-stacking team. If hte leper becomes more consistent at higher levels that's great, it's his main problem.
Post by: Elfeater on January 31, 2015, 08:26:03 pm
Post by: Sindain on January 31, 2015, 08:26:11 pm
so do we like this game or
I like it, I think its quite showing that its in EA but I'm pretty sure it will be a very strong game by the time it comes out.
I'm still experimenting with different options for the damage component of my stun-stacking team. If hte leper becomes more consistent at higher levels that's great, it's his main problem.
Well accuracy is one of the main things that gets increased when you level up skills sooo....
Post by: nenjin on January 31, 2015, 08:45:52 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2015, 08:54:05 pm
That's what I came into the game expecting and what I think the devs should be going for as a gameplay philosophy. We fought hard, it was horrific and terrible, we suffered great losses, but we won.
That's the key thing. Winning at great cost is awesome. Losing is fun but only the first time.
Post by: UristMcDwarf on February 01, 2015, 11:59:52 am
Question: Flavour-Wise, what's the Leper like? Is he literally just a guy with leprosy?
Post by: Dostoevsky on February 01, 2015, 12:55:02 pm
God, I can't wait. I wanna play this so bad.
Question: Flavour-Wise, what's the Leper like? Is he literally just a guy with leprosy?
You mean in terms of looks? A quick google search for "Darkest Dungeon leper" shows a bevy of images; if you've seen the movie "Kingdom of Heaven," the leper seems to be designed off of more battle-ready version of King Baldwin (also a leper).
In terms of character, it's basically "here's a fellow who has suffered just about everything the world has to offer-- so he's a tough badass with a big sword."
Edit: Figured I should give a larger version of this, seeing as the game provides nice lore/character chunks at each of the training stations. Here are the leper's:
Guild (trains combat skills): "A ruined man, a warrior, and a poet. The Leper is most effective when given a turn to focus himself before raising his massive blade. When he swings, it is all or nothing - crushing blows and massive damage or the empty whistling of a glancing blow. He is entirely self-sufficient, drawing strength from his life of trauma, and able to channel it into heals, protection, or unrelenting fury."
Blacksmith (upgrades gear): "Heavy and restricting, the Leper's bronzed cuirass can absorb all manner of punishing blow. His massive sword is slow to swing, but delivers crushing damage to anyone caught in its unstoppable arc."
Survivalist (trains camping skills): "A loner and an outcast, the Leper will tend to shun the others in his group, preferring instead to mend his own dying body at the expense of the horror such undertakings bring forth. In order to reduce his stress, the Leper can remove his mask, but such a thing is sure to unsettle his companions."
The narrator also has a speech for each character when you pick one up from the stage coach, but that is verbal only (and so more difficult to transcribe here).
Post by: Cthulhu on February 01, 2015, 01:56:30 pm
Post by: Knirisk on February 01, 2015, 04:10:57 pm
- I'm not sure how great the rewards are from letting the torch go down, but to be honest, I keep torchlight at pretty much maximum all the time. Since I haven't spent that long of a time playing, I don't know how much it's helping, but seriously, the higher chance of surprising enemies seems worth it to me. Fights where the enemies start out surprised go so much smoother I usually end up bringing 8 torches along on scouting mission and 6 on the skirmish missions. So far, anyway. I might let torchlight get lower if it's increased by camping.
- I always bring a shovel. Always. I think it'd be worth it to bring 2 when exploring the Weald, since I seem to consistently encounter walls there. Walls are just too expensive in terms of stress, health, and torchlight. Not too much of a discovery, but so useful that I feel it bears mentioning.
- Bringing guaranteed success (Are they guaranteed success?) items might be worth it, I think. I just went through a skirmish in the Weald, encountering an old, rotten tree trunk. Using a medicinal herb at that moment gave me 12 food, so I definitely came out ahead, even if I was doing fairly well in the skirmish so far. I've also had decent luck with keys when exploring the ruins. I imagine you can use the holy water on altars to purify them. Maybe you can also use a torch on experiment tables/bookcases? You have the option, but I don't remember an event that seems like it would necessitate a torch. Maybe like two medicinal herbs/one key when exploring the Weald, and two keys/one medicinal herb when exploring the ruins might be a decent experiment.
- There's one skill that, for me, makes Vestal totally worth it: Dazzling Light. Fair chance to stun, +5 torch? Hell yes. Vestal + Occultist means that, if you get the right set of enemies, you can basically heal your whole team (minus bleed damage) and recuperate your entire bar of torchlight by chain-stunning an enemy will high health, low stun-resist. It doesn't really help with the stress, though, but if you added a Crusader who can relieve stress, you could probably get a fair amount done there, too. I'm still in the beginning of the game, so I really don't believe that this strategy will hold up later on in the game where enemies will probably have a lot more stun resist, but it's fairly useful so far. It helps to have a backup stun, though.
- Actually, stuns in general are fucking useful. Removing enemies from play, even for a turn is so amazingly handy for damage control. Sure, you can still get fucked over by the occasional AOE crit, but you'd get fucked over by that even without stunning one of the enemies. The only downside to stuns is that they have essentially two rolls to fail, that being the dodge vs. accuracy chance and the enemies' resist chances. Still, they're handy enough that I'd consider taking a Doctor just for that double back-row stun. Blights, bleeds, and push/pulls are fairly useful, too, but not so much as stuns. I haven't really had good experiences with more specific debuffs like the -20 dodge debuffs. Buffs seem to be okay, but minus dodge debuffs don't seem to do anything so far, even to enemies whose defenses focus around dodge. Plus, there's the irony that the enemy can just dodge your dodge debuff. Fuck that nonsense.
Post by: BishopX on February 01, 2015, 04:27:44 pm
- I always bring a shovel. Always. I think it'd be worth it to bring 2 when exploring the Weald, since I seem to consistently encounter walls there. Walls are just too expensive in terms of stress, health, and torchlight. Not too much of a discovery, but so useful that I feel it bears mentioning.
- Bringing guaranteed success (Are they guaranteed success?) items might be worth it, I think. I just went through a skirmish in the Weald, encountering an old, rotten tree trunk. Using a medicinal herb at that moment gave me 12 food, so I definitely came out ahead, even if I was doing fairly well in the skirmish so far. I've also had decent luck with keys when exploring the ruins. I imagine you can use the holy water on altars to purify them. Maybe you can also use a torch on experiment tables/bookcases? You have the option, but I don't remember an event that seems like it would necessitate a torch. Maybe like two medicinal herbs/one key when exploring the Weald, and two keys/one medicinal herb when exploring the ruins might be a decent experiment.
- There's one skill that, for me, makes Vestal totally worth it: Dazzling Light. Fair chance to stun, +5 torch? Hell yes. Vestal + Occultist means that, if you get the right set of enemies, you can basically heal your whole team (minus bleed damage) and recuperate your entire bar of torchlight by chain-stunning an enemy will high health, low stun-resist. It doesn't really help with the stress, though, but if you added a Crusader who can relieve stress, you could probably get a fair amount done there, too. I'm still in the beginning of the game, so I really don't believe that this strategy will hold up later on in the game where enemies will probably have a lot more stun resist, but it's fairly useful so far. It helps to have a backup stun, though.
[/i]
So it seems like I bring a lot more crap than you guys. My standard short-ruins kit is three keys, 3 holy water 8 or 12 torches, twelve food and two shovels.
I've had very good luck with holy water on the urns. Typically I get 1000-1500 gp worth of stuff out of one urn. Keys seem more hit or miss to me, but often convert into heirlooms, so it's all good.
I usually bring 4 shovels to the welad, since they help digging up bodies...
I'll also note though that I seem to have good luck hit every curio I find, rather than ignoring them like others in this thread. The loot from them is what's sustaining my treatments, more so than the quest rewards.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 01, 2015, 04:42:28 pm
Post by: Knirisk on February 01, 2015, 05:59:54 pm
So it seems like I bring a lot more crap than you guys. My standard short-ruins kit is three keys, 3 holy water 8 or 12 torches, twelve food and two shovels.
I've had very good luck with holy water on the urns. Typically I get 1000-1500 gp worth of stuff out of one urn. Keys seem more hit or miss to me, but often convert into heirlooms, so it's all good.
I usually bring 4 shovels to the welad, since they help digging up bodies...
I'll also note though that I seem to have good luck hit every curio I find, rather than ignoring them like others in this thread. The loot from them is what's sustaining my treatments, more so than the quest rewards.
To be fair, I'm still slowly working through Short Apprentice missions, so I haven't had too much need for more than one/two shovels. I bring a bit more food than you, though. The reason why I don't take a lot of supplies with me, though, is because I don't know if you get them or an equivalent amount of gold back after you're done with the expedition. It'd be nice if you did, but I missed if there was something that said that you do.
I've had fairly decent luck with curios as well, and I generally bring back around 2000-3000 gold profit. Although, if you're making that much off of the urns, it might be worth taking a few holy waters along, especially since they cost less than the keys.
Post by: Sindain on February 01, 2015, 06:10:51 pm
On another note, with my most recent mission, I've officially downed all the veteran level bosses. One party formation has definitely become my favorite and that is Occultist/Bounty Hunter/Helion/Crusader. Crusader for general smite/slaying/tanking, Helion because If it Bleeds is awesome, Bounty Hunter for the pulls and double damage on marked targets, and Occultist for the heals and marking shit for my Bounty Hunter.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 01, 2015, 06:33:24 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 01, 2015, 07:36:16 pm
If it bleeds is indeed awesome. I might give that setup a try some time, my stun-stacking team's main problem is that it's a long, slow buildup and if things go wrong we can find ourselves not doing enough damage to keep up.
Post by: Zangi on February 01, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 01, 2015, 09:45:52 pm
I figure you need at least....7 to 8k per mission to help your party recover and be able to afford the stuff that nets you more gold when you provision for your next mission. It would be really, really nice if they let you keep your left over provisions.
Post by: Sindain on February 01, 2015, 09:58:25 pm
Especially when I learned you can run out of missions with a certain difficulty offering. That's why I was in the Weald in the first place, is there were no more apprentice Ruins missions.
You don't really "run out" per say, it just only generates a certain number of missions per week and it has a higher chance of generating tougher missions as you clear the area, but it still can generate apprentice missions.
But yeah, spiders can kinda suck.
Post by: Knirisk on February 02, 2015, 12:37:31 am
Well I was on a pretty good roll until I a) gambled on a Leper guaranteed to have a freak out early in the mission, and b) got totally reamed by spiders in the Weald. Almost the whole party was crippled in one horrible fight. Masochist is pretty bad, btw. Anything that involves dealing or taking damage, they'll pipe up and make the one dealing or taking suffer stress damage. AND they sometimes hurt themselves on their turn. AND they actively refuse heals. And then my fucking kickass Dismass who I'd sent to Sanitorium to heal a cough came back with "Known Cheat" cured instead. Nice. Didn't realize a fact was a psychological problem you can cure. With pretty much all of my Lvl 1 guys at half stress already, and falling down below 10k, I'm promptly flushing this game save down the drain. Especially when I learned you can run out of missions with a certain difficulty offering. That's why I was in the Weald in the first place, is there were no more apprentice Ruins missions.
I figure you need at least....7 to 8k per mission to help your party recover and be able to afford the stuff that nets you more gold when you provision for your next mission. It would be really, really nice if they let you keep your left over provisions.
In the sanatorium, you can choose which affliction you want to get rid of, and all afflictions can be cured, as far as I've found. Also, is it just me, or is every Dismas a fucking badass? I've restarted my campaign once, but both times so far, I've had one minor stress spiral occur early on in the game. Both times, Reynauld failed his affliction roll and went mad while Dismas came out ahead a second later with Stalwart.
Later, I found a ring that gave +15 accuracy for ranged weapons. I put it on Dismas and now his grape shot almost never misses. Consistent AOE damage like that tends to be fairly helpful, especially in the Weald with its maggots, rabid dogs, and spiders.
Yeah, I finally found a help file which clearly states that provisions are completely discarded without any repayment upon end of an expedition. It sucks. And also encourages me to not stock more than a cheap, standard set of provisions for adventuring.
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2015, 12:45:05 am
Post by: Zangi on February 02, 2015, 12:49:43 am
Also, Red Hook took some feedback on death blow resistance, nerfed it by roughly 20%.
EDIT: Currently, main party is Vestal, Grave Robber, Highwayman and Reynauld... They plowed the Hag with minimal stress.
Went in decked out and with the saving grace of predictable boss location... down the longest corridor.
Post by: Knirisk on February 02, 2015, 02:32:00 am
For how annoying the game can get under the RNG, that felt really fucking good.
Post by: TempAcc on February 02, 2015, 11:52:40 am
Post by: Zangi on February 02, 2015, 12:16:47 pm
Gets me everytime when they say that... as they are locked up behind a rusty iron door...
Post by: Mephansteras on February 02, 2015, 12:38:15 pm
Right now my take on them in no particular order.
Crusader: Solid fighter, although mine tend to get stressed out and break easily.
Hellion: One of the better melee classes. Good abilities and one of the more reliable classes. (Unless they get masochist and basically stab themselves to death. Grr.)
Bounty Hunter: Another really good class. Has some of the best kill skills and generally suffers the least from being out of position.
Grave Robber: Some of my best adventurers. I've found that they tend to be good at dodging and are really accurate, making them one of my more reliable fighters. Suck if stuck back in the 4th position, though, since they can't attack the front enemy from there and can get left with nothing to do.
Leper: Seems really good. Only had one so far, and he died in a party wipe. Looking forward to trying the class more when a spot opens up.
Jester: Likes dying. A lot. The stress reduction song is ok, but I'd rather have healing if I'm taking a support character.
Vestal: Very useful class, that little bit of healing really adds up over the course of a dungeon and I seriously notice the lack when I don't have one.
Plague Doctor: Moderately useful. I've ended up with quite a few of them due to the RNG throwing them at me. Not the best, but they can pull some solid work, especially with the blinding ability to stun archers.
Highwayman: Very good class and works pretty well from most positions. Mine seem to suffer from accuracy problems, though.
Occultist: Seems kinda meh so far. Nice Pull/Push abilities, and the Heal/Bleed ability can be handy, but they seem like they're best as a second support, which leaves the party low on damage.
Post by: SharpKris on February 02, 2015, 12:53:20 pm
is the game worth buying in its current form?
Post by: Zangi on February 02, 2015, 01:19:53 pm
Spoiler: Class Review (click to show/hide)
Typically, I try to set enemies up for an AOE wipe if my guys are not strong enough to wipe em out in one go... but then, there is merit in smashing em down 1 at a time as quickly as possible, in order to take as few hits as possible.
I havn't really subscribed to the stun thing, except for the plague doctor/vestal in very limited situations, cause of resists and limited range.
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2015, 04:29:59 pm
Post by: Biowraith on February 02, 2015, 04:30:29 pm
Generally I take 8 torches and 8 food, unless it's a medium mission with camping in which case I take 10 torches and 12 food. I try to keep light levels in the top bracket at all times - I'm occasionally tempted to let it drop down for the supposedly better loot, but it takes so little for things to spiral out of control that the extra risk doesn't seem worth it. I haven't been bothering with the other items, though the penalty of clearing an obstacle by hand does make the shovel tempting. I guess I should try the looting enhancement items a bit too next time I play, since other than a couple keys I've mostly ignored them.
Spoiler: My take on the classes (click to show/hide)
I'm enjoying the game so far, haven't really found it frustrating the way some have, although I wouldn't say no to stress management that was more meaningful than "keep torch levels high and hope you don't get any bad luck" (or at least, "hope the bad luck comes later on in the run"). I've been trying to give all classes an equal shake, but tentatively I'd say my favourite party is Vestal-Occultist-Bounty Hunter-Leper
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2015, 04:55:01 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 02, 2015, 05:53:04 pm
I've also figured out how stress works and my characters break down much less often. And thus get bad traits much less frequently. Thus saving me sanitarium money.
PD: I dont want to know why my characters sometimes get syphilis from touching corpses.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2015, 06:32:43 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 02, 2015, 06:47:25 pm
In general I try to keep around 4-5 healers (did I mention that I like occultists better than vestals? They heal faster, despite the bleed risk), and grave robbers and highwaymen to spare. As of late I'm not even bothering too much with pure melee characters (crusader//leper etc..) because I like a lot the advance-retreat strategies provided by duelist-pointblank highwaymen and lunge-shadow stun strike grave robbers.
During quests themselves I keep an eye on the stress levels and start to consider to leave when they go up. That way you might get spared a crisis. You can afford to have a character break down if you're about to finish the scenario, but if it's at the middle or the beginning you might as well turn back, otherwise the combined stress of the environment and your breakdown character will eventually make the others break down as well, at the worst possible moment. I think this game rewards conservative strategies, in general. You can't afford to be 100% conservative as you have to cover your provision expenses at the very least (and you have to balance those as well, too many and you will break even at best. Too few and your characters will break down, and you wont be able to use items on chests and urns)
BTW: has anyone figured out scouting?
Post by: Mephansteras on February 02, 2015, 06:59:42 pm
Bad time all around.
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
I really want to know what the stealth patches were. It was bad at release, but it's even worse now. I've tried about 8 runs now and I haven't had a one that hasn't gone tits up within the first three rooms. Your first run being total shit just makes the rest that much more difficult. Let alone getting absolutely dominated in the tutorial by crits so Reynauld and Dismas are ready to crack right from the start.
I'm starting to notice 2 things with all these harrowings: your rewards are better the worse you come out of a fight. And the downside of support characters is that they're reducing your attacks per round. A miss or a stun or rank change, and you get stuck in a loop of trying to react to damage with the majority of your party instead of dealing it. I think pure offense with 1 support is probably the way to go. Because at the end of the day, enemies are going to leave you worse off every turn they attack than you will recover health and stress under normal circumstances. Every time your stuns don't work, or an enemy surprise crits (not much of a fucking surprise these days), you're a little farther in the hole that before. Maybe I need to get out of level 1 scrub gameplay. But it's a little hard when the game fucks you six ways from Sunday in just about every fight. Maybe I've just got a bad RNG today.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 02, 2015, 07:35:04 pm
Quote
I'm starting to notice 2 things with all these harrowings: your rewards are better the worse you come out of a fight.
I think this is the other way around: tougher fights have better rewards but you come out worse from them
Quote
And the downside of support characters is that they're reducing your attacks per round.
This is why I love occultists better than vestals. You can have a healer and still keep a number of skills that can make it worth your while. My occultists come in two main flavors: knife + debuff + abyssal + healing or 2 debuffs + abyssal + healing
BTW: I'm pretty sure that it pays off A LOT to go out of your way to keep your adventurers at low stress levels. Not only they will not break in dire straits, but camping wont result in black thoughts... AND... I'm pretty sure the character traits you get tend to be positive more frequently. Which means that you will have overall stronger characters, and an easier time at removing bad traits.
I think combat retreat is unreliable. If the party is even a bit weakish, it's better to call it quits early altogether. You'll get to keep the loot anyway.
Post by: Zangi on February 02, 2015, 07:59:17 pm
I'm starting to think those loot cleanser items are really helpful in making sure you break even in a run or turn a profit, if you don't plan to finish it. Provisioning is not cheap at all once you start loading up for medium dungeons and start bringing loot cleansers.Them loot items really do help. At the very least, you want them shovels. Half the dungeoning is being prepared.... to loot and mitigate stress. It is normally a poor idea to try to loot some stuff without loot items.
Update: Killed all the apprentice level bosses with my A-team. Was slightly concerned for my Highwayman for a moment against the pigs, but the little piggy missed... allowing me to continue my onslaught with impunity. 18 damage bleed/blight per turn... could be more, but only 2 of my people can stack it.
Spoiler: My non-spoilery recommendation to those having trouble (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2015, 08:15:07 pm
Quote
I think this is the other way around: tougher fights have better rewards but you come out worse from them
I'm basing this off the tutorial fight, one mob. Fights where I surprise him or lay him out Round 1 tend to result in like 25 to 50 gold pieces.
On the other hand, fights were he comes out the gate with a crit, dodges a couple attacks, or double crits with one his AoEs, I've seen the end of fight reward be anywhere from 250 to 500 gold.
So while it's true tougher fights leave you more fucked up and that might trigger better rewards, it's equally true that easy fights that go horribly sideways can yield good loot too.
Also to note, if you just want to have a week turn over, you can send out 4 guys and retreat them immediately. At the cost of ~30 stress per character and negative quirks. If you really need a new hero draw, or you just need a week for your better heroes to recover, it's not bad in a pinch. Starting to think it's good to really upgrade the stage coach from the outset, instead of just enough to get 4 and hold 2 squads.
Post by: Knirisk on February 03, 2015, 06:15:57 am
QuoteAnd the downside of support characters is that they're reducing your attacks per round.
This is why I love occultists better than vestals. You can have a healer and still keep a number of skills that can make it worth your while. My occultists come in two main flavors: knife + debuff + abyssal + healing or 2 debuffs + abyssal + healing
Yeah, I get that people don't like how weak the occultist is, but seriously, that healing, ironically, has felt far more effective than the Vestal's ever did. The Vestal might be better after you rank up her skill using the guild, but until then, occultist heal still feels better. Although, that might just be because I got some fairly decent rolls and 10-12 healing feels SO good. I've also had success with the pulls. Pulls are especially pertinent when you have an enemy that takes up two spaces, because you can just pull one-space enemies in front of it and then you can hit them all with AOE attacks. Assuming you use AOE attacks.
Depending on healing feels like trying to staunch the blood flow of a lethal bullet wound. No matter whether you succeed or fail, you're still going to die. The only, albeit pretty mild, success I've had so far is through stun-locking enemies and depending on the occultist's RNG.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2015, 07:54:00 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 03, 2015, 09:36:57 am
Post by: Zangi on February 03, 2015, 09:46:59 am
Mind you, I have not upgraded an Occultist yet. The concept of basing my heals entirely on the whims of RNG is not something I can fully support.
I feel that basing your strategy on stun-lock parties severely limits your options. There are enemies that have high stun resistance, so it can become a liability if your stun-lock party can't properly fight without the main tactic.
Though, I guess you would have some luck with other strategies once you begin to gear your people at the blacksmith/trainers...
I personally advocate brute force with a smattering of bleed/blight/AOE when opportune.
Beware of relying on A Teams. Sometimes your heroes might leave (for good? I dunno). I just had one of my favorite bandits (not superDismas, thank Nyarlathothep) leave "looking for a vision" after I left him meditating in the abbey to de-stress him. After seeing this I think cycling characters is even MORE important, as to have something decent to fall back on if this (or dungeon death) happens, instead of raw noobs.From my experience, they come back, eventually... as long as there is still room in the roster for them to come back.
And yea, your A team shouldn't just be 4 characters anyways... since they will eventually outlevel dungeons and you'll need to train up another team if you missed a boss or find that there is an awesome trinket reward...
EDIT:
For stress management, if you kill something with bleed/blight, noone heals any stress. But, its a payoff in the end if you want to avoid further damage/stress.
Post by: Sindain on February 03, 2015, 09:58:07 am
Beware of relying on A Teams. Sometimes your heroes might leave (for good? I dunno). I just had one of my favorite bandits (not superDismas, thank Nyarlathothep) leave "looking for a vision" after I left him meditating in the abbey to de-stress him. After seeing this I think cycling characters is even MORE important, as to have something decent to fall back on if this (or dungeon death) happens, instead of raw noobs.
They return eventually (usually? I think? I've certainly have had them return from this.) and you can use this to actually get above max rooster size.
Post by: nenjin on February 03, 2015, 10:00:57 am
Also apparently people have already beaten the available content at 42 hours. The mind boggles. Maybe if I'd stuck out some runs I'd be farther along but I struggle to see how it would have been possible. I think there's just a threshold you pass with this game where bad runs don't hurt you as much. Getting to that threshold is the hard part.
Post by: TempAcc on February 03, 2015, 10:35:26 am
1-How do you keep track of hunger? At one point the game told me my party was starving and we took health and stress penalties because of it.
2-I saw the camping skills on the character sheets, but how exactly do you camp inside a dungeon?
3-How do you upgrade your team members?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2015, 10:58:14 am
2. You can only camp in longer quests. You'll automatically receive firewood when you can camp and you just right click it.
3. Later on you'll unlock the guildhouse, where you can upgrade abilities; the blacksmith, where you can upgrade gear; and the survivalist, who upgrades camping skills.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 03, 2015, 11:22:00 am
Post by: Sindain on February 03, 2015, 12:55:13 pm
Also apparently people have already beaten the available content at 42 hours. The mind boggles. Maybe if I'd stuck out some runs I'd be farther along but I struggle to see how it would have been possible. I think there's just a threshold you pass with this game where bad runs don't hurt you as much. Getting to that threshold is the hard part.
I beat the available content yesterday. Haven't bothered to grind all my people up to 6th level because that seems pointless, but I did beat all champion level bosses.
Really, once you get adjusted to veteran level missions its pretty easy after that. You'll get tons o gold and with max level weapons and abilities crit chances are really high so stress starts to become a non issue (as you'll be recovering ~20 stress a battle just through crits).
Post by: Zangi on February 03, 2015, 04:42:39 pm
Either way, I'm probably gonna throw a suggestion out along these lines:
Spoiler: Further defining affliction and heroics... (click to show/hide)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 03, 2015, 05:03:31 pm
I suspect we'll get healing kits sometime into the development process&, and I hope we get some tackling of the issue as well. As it is it's a bit unsatisfying , the healing mechanic. Combat-only healing is a bit arbitrary. I'd rather have it work both in and out of combat but have some other sort of limit that was more interesting (eg: I believe someone suggested in this thread having occultist healing stress people?).
Post by: Mephansteras on February 03, 2015, 05:28:51 pm
I think the best way to handle the issue is to let you heal out of combat but have wounds reduce both current hp and max hp for the adventure. That way you'd still be ground down by frequent/brutal combat, but it wouldn't feel as arbitrary. And you could have the camp healing effects restore max hp to make them useful again.
Post by: Zangi on February 03, 2015, 05:32:35 pm
Of course, once stress is maxed, they can't heal anymore. (Occult and Leper starts stressing themselves if everyone else is maxed.) As for stress relieving skills if available, stresses the user too.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2015, 05:57:35 pm
Post by: TwilightWalker on February 03, 2015, 07:01:53 pm
Post by: BishopX on February 03, 2015, 08:50:13 pm
1. It's random. Periodically they'll get hungry.
2. You can only camp in longer quests. You'll automatically receive firewood when you can camp and you just right click it.
3. Later on you'll unlock the guildhouse, where you can upgrade abilities; the blacksmith, where you can upgrade gear; and the survivalist, who upgrades camping skills.
Major point on the blacksmith. You can upgrade the arms and armor of a character the first time when they hot level ONE. Here's can have gear equal to their level +1. It's less than 1k for a fairly large boost in stats, and makes it makes a big difference.
Post by: Elfeater on February 03, 2015, 10:50:42 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on February 04, 2015, 02:28:58 am
Speaking of bugs - I wonder if it is a feature or a bug that sometimes you get, say, a drunk and then have him turn absolutist, leaving no way to remove stress without a trip to the sanitarium.
It would be nice if winning bosses gave you unique rewards, such as unique items or unique heroes. These unique heroes could be of classes otherwise unavailable. Something like Martyr - regenerates constantly and heals others by taking their damage to himself, when someone dies he dies instead, Vampyr - fights the better the darker it is, stresses everyone else and sucks their blood while camping, Gunslinger - back row gunpowder-based damage dealer, Mad Scientist - experiments give unpredictable results and boost friends, but drive them insane. The gist of it the unique classes being all stronger than basic classes, but coming with a serious handicap inbuilt.
Post by: SharpKris on February 04, 2015, 02:57:58 am
Post by: rumpel on February 04, 2015, 02:59:37 am
Post by: Elfeater on February 04, 2015, 07:58:43 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 04, 2015, 08:24:34 am
Post by: miljan on February 04, 2015, 08:34:03 am
Is there any reason to use the Jester? Haven't recruited one, had one to pop up available but the skills seemed pretty useless. So far I'm rolling with Vestal/Occultist, Plague Doctor for crowd control (yay for stun grenades), two tanks. When doctors are too insane I replace the slot with a Grave Robber, but she seems quite...average.
Jester was the most OP and broken hero that would make your whole party have 0 stress. They nerfed him in last patch, but still you can abuse it like the healing mechanic.
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 10:26:14 am
The game doesn't really have *that* much RNG. It is in a way like BloodBowl, risk management.
There is no managing the risk of crits, as DemonofWrath points out. There's also no managing guys who can attack 4 ranks deep from the front row targeting your healers and weakest characters exclusively. You're either going to go first, or you're not. They're either going to wipe them out in one turn, or not.
Bloodbowl is a tactical game because you can see what's about to happen and plan accordingly, and then blame the dice rolls. DD is just subjecting yourself to the RNG first, and managing the risk after the fact as best you can. At the very least, seeing who is acting next would help you make decisions that will keep people alive better.
Post by: Zangi on February 04, 2015, 11:35:11 am
Edit: The true test of your resolve.
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 11:55:40 am
Shit hits the fan manager.
Edit: The true test of your resolve.
I think it's the true test of your tolerance for RNG. I'm ok with losing guys but I don't like the hole the game starts to dig for you. If you weren't at as risk of exhausting your funds due to provisioning and stress-reduction costs, I think I'd be complaining a little less.
Post by: silverskull39 on February 04, 2015, 12:34:32 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 04, 2015, 12:41:56 pm
So far I'm rolling with Vestal/Occultist, Plague Doctor for crowd control (yay for stun grenades), two tanks. When doctors are too insane I replace the slot with a Grave Robber, but she seems quite...average.I'm surprised you find plague doctors good for crowd control at all, given their low versatility. The stun grenade only works on the back row people, and it can miss. Same with plague grenade. Once you kill two enemies (the two weakest?) then you're stuck with their shitty front row attacks.
Graverobber, now.. average? I think she likely has one of the best skill combos: shadowfade is low damage, but is a good stunner, and bolsters defense. Plus, it shoves you to the back, where you can use lunge, which IMO is in the top 3 attack skills in the game a +40% to damage and a +10% to crit.
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 01:10:28 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 04, 2015, 01:41:45 pm
I'm still unimpressed with Grave Robber. Her damage is low, and rather than all the moving ranks to stun and yadda yadda, which can still get resisted, you can get a bounty hunter wailing on dudes from anywhere in the lineup, or pulling them to the front, or using his flashbang.
See, the thing that does it for me is that she is one of the most reliable characters I have. Her Accuracy is much higher than most other characters, so while she may not be hitting as hard she's almost always hitting. Something that can't be said for most other classes. I've had more than one battle pulled through simply because I could count on the Grave Robber to do her job even when everyone else is failing. She's also fast, and often the only person on my team to go before any of the enemy units, meaning that she can take out a badly wounded enemy before it has a chance to go.
Of course, the enemies seem to know this so she gets ganged up on a lot. Lost more than a few Grave Robbers because of that.
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 01:43:25 pm
I'm still unimpressed with Grave Robber. Her damage is low, and rather than all the moving ranks to stun and yadda yadda, which can still get resisted, you can get a bounty hunter wailing on dudes from anywhere in the lineup, or pulling them to the front, or using his flashbang.
Of course, the enemies seem to know this so she gets ganged up on a lot. Lost more than a few Grave Robbers because of that.
That's been my other experience with her. Every time I take one in, it seems to get targeted. She takes the same kind of heat casters do it seems, and despite dodge it doesn't seem to help her stay alive all that often.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 04, 2015, 02:03:11 pm
Anyone have any good tips on how to take on the swine prince? I had a good party - Crusader, Hellion, Highwayman, and Vestral. They pretty much walked through every battle up to the bastard, and then got completely stomped. He hit everyone every round for 6-12 damage and is immune to stun. I hurt him, but no where near as fast as he hurt me. Lost the Vestral and fled the battle with everyone else at death's door. I'm...just not sure how to deal with that one.
Post by: Sindain on February 04, 2015, 02:05:26 pm
Anyone have any good tips on how to take on the swine prince? I had a good party - Crusader, Hellion, Highwayman, and Vestral. They pretty much walked through every battle up to the bastard, and then got completely stomped. He hit everyone every round for 6-12 damage and is immune to stun. I hurt him, but no where near as fast as he hurt me. Lost the Vestral and fled the battle with everyone else at death's door. I'm...just not sure how to deal with that one.
Where you attacking or pulling the little pig? Cause you really shouldn't attack the little pig.
Post by: Zangi on February 04, 2015, 02:12:53 pm
I'm still unimpressed with Grave Robber. Her damage is low, and rather than all the moving ranks to stun and yadda yadda, which can still get resisted, you can get a bounty hunter wailing on dudes from anywhere in the lineup, or pulling them to the front, or using his flashbang.I'm kinda meh with the backward moving stun, since I don't really rely on em.
The pickaxe is on par with the 'average', which doesn't mean its a bad thing... what I'm saying is that it works as I need it to, nothing more, nothing less.
The blight and double dagger have their uses. The blight more so against big things.
Lunge is awesome... but you do need to have a party that gels with its use.
Yea, I suppose I can see why you'd be unimpressed. (They still have a place in my party formation anytime though.)
Anyone have any good tips on how to take on the swine prince? I had a good party - Crusader, Hellion, Highwayman, and Vestral. They pretty much walked through every battle up to the bastard, and then got completely stomped. He hit everyone every round for 6-12 damage and is immune to stun. I hurt him, but no where near as fast as he hurt me. Lost the Vestral and fled the battle with everyone else at death's door. I'm...just not sure how to deal with that one.Blight/Bleed/Critical the big pig. Don't bother with anything fancy/gimmicky. Getting a lucky dodge on an attack or mark really does help though. You did upgrade your characters equipment and skills?
Post by: Mephansteras on February 04, 2015, 02:14:45 pm
Where you attacking or pulling the little pig? Cause you really shouldn't attack the little pig.
We killed the little pig in two turns. Apparently that was a bad idea?
After that I got bleeds up on the big guy and wailed on him, but he hit us harder than we could hit him, proportionally.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 04, 2015, 02:17:03 pm
Also when he's dead Wilbur starts spamming a 1 damage whole-team stun so be careful. He can wipe you if you're unlucky and badly wounded at the end.
Post by: Rakonas on February 04, 2015, 04:20:39 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 04:33:32 pm
Post by: Mattk50 on February 04, 2015, 05:32:44 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on February 04, 2015, 05:33:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 05:35:03 pm
this looks like a lot of fun but im a bit wary of early access lately. Is it worth the 20$ as it stands right now?
In terms of content, I haven't gotten far enough to say. I've read 40 hours (of what is essentially dungeon grind) from some players. The quality of that content though, is quite high.
That said I'd maybe recommend waiting until a) there's more balance changes or b) they implement their difficulty modes. I may have kind of poisoned the well of my enjoyment by jumping in this early and getting frustrated with what is otherwise an amazingly executed game.
Post by: Drakale on February 04, 2015, 05:53:53 pm
I also hope they will tone down the critical hit multiplier a bit across the board. Adds a lot of randomness to an already unforgiving game.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 04, 2015, 07:22:28 pm
Post by: BishopX on February 04, 2015, 07:54:09 pm
Post by: Elfeater on February 04, 2015, 08:32:38 pm
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 04, 2015, 08:38:45 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2015, 08:51:41 pm
True, I'm still pretty early in the game so there's little camping, but I'd argue that being better in combat alleviates the need to camp in the first place.
There are some pretty sick buffs you can give yourself during camping too. I don't know if they last the mission or until next camp or what though.
Post by: Sindain on February 04, 2015, 09:06:06 pm
True, I'm still pretty early in the game so there's little camping, but I'd argue that being better in combat alleviates the need to camp in the first place.
There are some pretty sick buffs you can give yourself during camping too. I don't know if they last the mission or until next camp or what though.
They're all until next camp, which unless you're on a long mission means until the end of the mission.
Post by: Rakonas on February 04, 2015, 09:45:09 pm
Post by: Elfeater on February 04, 2015, 11:08:45 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on February 05, 2015, 02:03:17 am
I get it that if you push your party ahead despite everyone being crazy or at low hp, then getting wiped is part of the risk management thingy. However, sometimes you get totally screwed by crits or some other roll of the dice while playing somewhat carefully, leading into a wipe. Getting back on your feet after that can be very difficult. Fleeing is so hard and sometimes you have several guys with have-to-be-removed -traits. For example, a combinaton of godfearing and witness makes the character unable to recover any stress at all. You *have* to get rid of one to keep using the guy. It makes me think your guys should recover some stress for free if simply left home, but at a slow rate. The only must for paying for stress recovery should be insanity.
What comes to balance, I still think the plague doctor is pretty good with the enemy displacement, stun bombs and the bleeding dagger strike. Not awesome, but pretty good. Being able to stun two rear enemies can sometimes be a lifesaver. Plus I like variety, so I always hire one of each class to my crew and try to use them all.
I certainly agree more interactions between the characters inside and outside dungeoneering would be fun, especially if it happened due to class and quirk combinations. So, for example, characters who are satanists could get into summoning a demon with hilarious consequences or godfearer and witness could get into a religious debate. (Ending in stress, removing the quirk from one of the characters or just wasted time etc.)
Edit: I think the boss fights, by the way, are strangely balanced. First the assumed difficulty level doesn't seem to really indicate the difficulty. The apprentice necromancer was a breeze; he just stayed stunlocked while my guys beat him like LAPD on Rodney King. The hag, on the other hand, did a total party wipe on the same characters. I got stuck wasting all my actions releasing people from the pot, pretty much. This was partially a tactical blunder on my part, but the impossible-to-resist put in to the pot felt a bit unfair.
Considering how all characters are mortal all the time, I wish defeating a boss would give you something special. Either special quirk to the victorious characters or a permanent boon to your hamlet or something. The mechanical effects don't really matter; I'd just like a reward for the trouble.
Post by: TempAcc on February 05, 2015, 08:32:41 am
In my opinion, the only underwhelming classes I've found is the jester/bard and the grave robber. The grave robber just does eh damage and seems unable to do anything interesting against the enemy. Several of her abilities also change her placement on your team, which can screw up other characters. The jester/bard class is ok, having some nice abilities that cause bleeding and a stress healing ability, but otherwise he's pretty underwhelming in every aspect, being the second worst character, only behind the grave robber in that aspect.
I found the plague doctor to be pretty useful. The blight can afflict almost any monster and the stun grenade is damn useful too.
Anyways, stuns seem to be the way to go in this game so far. Preventing damage is always better then healing damage. And with 3 characters that can stun, my success rate has improved dramatically. The bounty hunter is the best class that you dont start with, for me at least. He has tons of utility, has a stun, can do lots of damage against marked/stunned enemies and he's pretty great at dealing with pesky enemies that do lots of nasty things from the back row, such as fusiliers, since he can pull them to the front and knock front liners into the back row, where they're mostly useless.
My current A team consists of a new paladin I hired, a merc, superdismas the highwayman and a vestal thats going to need some treatment for her tetanus. Seriously though, I might consider getting a second merc instead of dismas, mercs are damn useful.
Post by: Sindain on February 05, 2015, 08:41:53 am
Obviously to use this build you need a somewhat position flexible team. I would usually run with a helion in my 2nd rank when running with my graverobber.
Graverobbers also can get absurd levels of dodge, between shadow fade and toxin trickery they can get around 100 dodge at the higher levels which makes them rather good in the front line as a dodge tank.
Jesters are all right. Good crit mod and with their bleed abilities they can kinda work like a helion but with slightly lower base damage.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 05, 2015, 07:02:54 pm
Post by: BishopX on February 05, 2015, 08:22:44 pm
I really like the Jester. He does pretty high consistent damage (with a lot of crits happening) that can reach back pretty far, and he's also surprisingly resilient because he has a really good dodge score.
Crits are really important, not because of the damage increase, but because of the stress heal...
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 05, 2015, 08:25:12 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on February 05, 2015, 08:31:34 pm
Post by: ventuswings on February 05, 2015, 08:37:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 05, 2015, 08:42:42 pm
on occasion I will sort of cheese it by killing the meanest stuff and leaving one weak enemy I can out heal (stress heals and HP heals if I have a jester and a Vestal)
This is a big topic on their forums. Most agree it's cheese but a smaller proportion vocally want to see it go.
If you can't dedicate a stun to it (like let's say your Crusader or Vestal has other stuff you really want them doing like HP or Stress heals) it's not actually that smart of a move. You can debuff their accuracy or w/e, but basically 1 crit rolls back half of your work just in that fight. I had a 9 round fight I was milking and the bastard snuck two crits in on me. When I sat back and thought about it, the HPs are relatively easy to recover...you just have to watch out for that 5 to ???? crit window. Stress on the other hand.....takes a lot more effort to bring down without camping, and is much more fragile to maintain. Sometimes you just get lucky runs where you score enough crits per fight you stay at a relatively manageable level. And then you get those fights were it's two enemy crits a fight, and you're screwed before the end of the second fight.
Crits are the great equalizer in this game...and from my reading on their forums, once you cross a certain threshold of resolve/armor/weapon damage, the game's difficulty actually takes a nose dive. I think a lot of difficulty hinges on just that one mechanic. Well, that and their RNG. I'd love a little dev talk about it, because it feels so weighted to the extremes.
Also, game would be a lot harder if torches burned down during combat. I thought it did, it's just they deplete so fast walking around I mistook one for the other at the beginning. Maybe if they nerfed walking torch burn a little, and added combat torch burn, it would shake things up a little. That would be an incentive not to drag out fights, make scout missions a little more fair. On the other hand, I've done +5 Torch ability spam too, so I dunno how well it could fight that off.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 05, 2015, 08:50:00 pm
Post by: BishopX on February 05, 2015, 10:30:19 pm
Post by: Sindain on February 05, 2015, 11:43:55 pm
Thoughs on the Warrens? I'm finding the diseases quite debilitating, since they cost a sanitarium slot and a thousand gold to cure...
Murder the vomit bastards quickly. All diseases from intractable can be avoided by using medicine on the intractable.
Post by: Retropunch on February 06, 2015, 01:41:24 am
I really would suggest that they tone down the difficulty on the tutorial - I know it sounds like something a true Rogueliker would never say, but it just seemed a bit depressing to have some really difficult fights and lose a guy straight away. I mean, I get it wants to showcase that it's not going to be easy, but it still feels a bit too soon.
I'd also like a little bit more info on everything - I felt like they expected you to have kept up with game developments along the way, as there was a lot that I didn't really understand.
That all just makes me sound rubbish at games - I swear I'm not!
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 01:46:32 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 06, 2015, 02:52:21 am
Once you get the hang of the game and of how seriously you need to handle stress and stuff (I keep it down well but a guy freaking out is really annoying but not too bad, all four going nuts is actually alright since it basically makes stress irrelevant for the rest of the run) the difficulty drops a fair bit.
More clarity as a whole would also be nice for sure, I'd like to at least know how the dodge and protection stats actually work rather than guessing.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 06, 2015, 02:54:54 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 06, 2015, 05:30:20 am
Although the RNG did suck thinking about it the game is supposed to be tense and by god were buttcheeks clenched. It felt pretty damn awesome in the aftermath of it.
Also that mission is a good example of how stress isn't that big a deal, as my party went nuts very early on because of a stupid amount of crits. Two went abusive, two selfish, and aside from the Crusader passing two turns in a row at the end it really didn't matter, just made everything take three times as long because one or two ALWAYS had something to say after every... single... move.
Post by: TempAcc on February 06, 2015, 08:20:10 am
I'm kind of tempted to try a party with 2 mercs. That way, not only can both of them stun and bring back row enemies to the front row, but each of them can make use of the "collect bounty" and "finish him" way more easily by alternating the mark for death and the flashbang abilities. I've found that stunning enemies is the best thing to do if you cant outright kill them, since it basically prevents damage altogheder (prevention beats a cure, after all). That doesnt seem to work well for bosses though, but the mercs would be really useful in those situations too by using mark for death and just hacking the boss down with that sweet 100% damage bonus.
I think the only class I haven't tried so far is the helion. It took me 6 weeks till one even showed up, and now I have no place for her.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 06, 2015, 08:44:49 am
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 08:45:36 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 06, 2015, 09:48:35 am
Now looking at the thread that's pretty obviously directed at me, so notice I did immediately after saying that agree with the first mission or two after the tutorial being overly unforgiving. Part of it being random is we're all going to have different experiences and thus impressions of the game, and general concensus appears to be that there's a bit much RNG instead of actual difficulty, but at the same time I think at least some measure of it is vital to the atmosphere of the game (that things can just go horribly wrong and you either retreat or take gigantic risks), and it's kind of like Blood Bowl in that managing the risk (and knowing when to submit yourself to RNGesus) is part of being good at the game.
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 10:05:37 am
Quote
so if someone says the tutorial is hard due to RNG I personally imagine that they'd had to of been screwed REALLY hard for that to be the case.
Try dieing in the 2nd turn on the second fight of the tutorial. Try that whip attack critting for 15 damage on both your characters. Try following that up with Blanket Shot critting for another 8 to 10. Try starting the game with your two best party members at 85/100 Stress, or already afflicted.
It's not hard. It's just stupidly random, which has classically produced the result of some players saying the game is too easy, and some saying it's too random. The difference I see is, people who have experienced the randomness at its worst understand the game can also be easy because of it. The people who HAVEN'T experienced the randomness at its worse are acting like everyone else is just whining/needs to L2P/confused...and/or bragging and complaining that the game is easy. Or acting like the source of people's pain is a mystery.
Quote
and it's kind of like Blood Bowl in that managing the risk (and knowing when to submit yourself to RNGesus) is part of being good at the game.
Bloodbowl is not a valid comparison here, and here is why: in Bloodbowl you know what's coming. You can see several moves ahead, you know what your enemy is capable of, you know what your own guys are capable of.
That is not DD. You have no idea of turn order, the content of encounters, the make up of an individual dungeon run or the range your enemies and characters are capable of achieving. I've seen the Bounty Hunter crit so hard before he could have nearly dropped a boss with that one attack. I've had some characters resist death like 7 times in a row. I've had enemies one shot my own guys (to Death's Door) from full health with a crit. There's very little you can plan for in DD other than having 4 characters and healers.
Bloodbowl is an entire other order of strategy above DD. They're both random games. One gives you plenty of information and preparation and then fucks you with the RNG. DD just throws you into the unknown and then fucks you with the RNG.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 06, 2015, 10:32:05 am
I think Bloodbowl is valid because the core skills are essentially the same. What matters is your initial setup, so for DD that's your party composition/order and what you take along and for BB your team composition and setup at the start of a drive, and how you manage the risk involved in each action you take (do you take the more risky block in BB to open up several safer blocks? do you use less torches in DD for more loot but harder fights?). DD has a lot more unknowns to the risk, but typically milder penalties (IMO), since in BB something going wrong ends your turn completely. DD also has a reasonably predictable (and often dumb) AI as compared to a human opponent, so a risk going badly can also randomly barely be punished in DD. The core skills for both are risk management and preparation/setup before any RNG can happen.
Although the RNG for this game does seem decidedly streaky, at least for crits, but that may just be me.
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 11:01:23 am
Not to mention, in Bloodbowl manuvering is a large part of gameplay and risk management. You get a whole field to make your moves on. DD, on the other hand, is like having a knife fight in a cardboard box. You're not really strategizing that much. You're stabbing in the dark hoping that they don't stab you in the eyes/heart/nuts.
Post by: teoleo on February 06, 2015, 11:17:09 am
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 11:49:33 am
Post by: Retropunch on February 06, 2015, 12:53:18 pm
At the tactical level it is quite narrow, but when you're trying to juggle getting stress down, health up as well as destroy the enemy it's quite interesting.
I really, really hate that there's no indication of turn order though. It just seems like a terrible oversight.
Post by: TempAcc on February 06, 2015, 04:07:14 pm
And I have to admit that, after upgrading my equipment and heroes about two levels, the game feels a lot more manageable. The game is much harder untill you can at least get the classes you want in your team and be able to buy the abilities you want, after that, its just a matter of adapting your strategy during fights and planning ahead. After that point, the game becomes a lot more about your decisions and less about what the RNG wants.
Post by: joey4track on February 06, 2015, 05:38:18 pm
Post by: Sonlirain on February 06, 2015, 06:42:11 pm
Then you have "King of Dragon Pass" but it's almost completely removed from action as it's a turn based strategy rather than RPG.
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 07:12:22 pm
Post by: joey4track on February 06, 2015, 08:41:00 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 09:32:18 pm
Part of me still knows it's an illusion of security though. The RNG is still there, a fickle beast lurking in the suppurating darkness, waiting to unleash three crits in a row. But the way my runs at 4 or 5 weeks+ are going, compared to my previous experiences, is like night and day. I can see why people start to call the game easy. When the RNG is going your way, and you know what kind of party you want to run, it's not hard to milk fights and keep stress pretty low. And once you've got many weeks under your belt, you emotionally brush off a bad run. It's just not the same story in the first 2 or 3 weeks for people fresh starting the game.
Post by: joey4track on February 06, 2015, 09:57:40 pm
If I can actually pry myself away from it- it really does have quite and addicting if not masochistic quality to it.
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2015, 10:12:39 pm
Post by: joey4track on February 06, 2015, 11:06:31 pm
I like it but it's very taxing. You know it's messed up when I'll play Spelunky to actually calm down after a run in DD :P
Post by: Cthulhu on February 06, 2015, 11:31:17 pm
I get that feeling occasionally, got it on Angband once on my first really successful character. The worst I ever got it was playing This War of Mine when one of my characters saved a lady from a soldier and then killed some bandits and we had a ton of food and supplies and everything was going great. I was like "These people are going to suffer horribly if I keep playing. This isn't over at all" and it was really distressing.
And I was right. Things got awful and everyone died.
Post by: revo on February 07, 2015, 12:20:20 am
Post by: Retropunch on February 07, 2015, 02:37:28 am
I think this is a bit to do with a 'risk vs reward' kinda thing. In most dungeon crawlers, when you get to the end of a branch/vault (like a run I suppose) you are rewarded well and feel to have really achieved. With DD I have to mainly just patch my team up, get one or two very small upgrades and then just plough back into it - which leaves me feeling drained.
Whilst I realise this feeling of desperation is what they were aiming for (and I salute them for it), I do wish they could reward the player more to keep you wanting to push on. This could either be in more gear to try out, more frequent levelling and upgrades to skills which feel less incremental and more interesting.
Post by: Scoops Novel on February 07, 2015, 07:12:35 am
Post by: Elfeater on February 07, 2015, 08:42:10 am
Post by: Zangi on February 07, 2015, 09:19:25 am
Post by: Sindain on February 07, 2015, 09:26:44 am
They would need to buff up the bosses. With luck and a good plan, a boss can be destroyed just as easily as a party of maggots.
Yeah, the thing about the bosses is they all are weakest to a very particular team composition and strategy. If you happen to know that strategy they can be destroyed pretty easily barring some really bad luck or rough trip to the boss, but if you don't know the strategy you can very easily just get completely demolished.
So if you don't want to spoil yourself it would probably be a good idea to throw a couple expendable teams at a boss so you can learn it.
That being said, I think there are more elegant ways to handle the level cap then the current method, so I don't really support it in general. However, the bosses don't particularly need an exception.
Post by: Dostoevsky on February 07, 2015, 06:28:30 pm
That being said, I think there are more elegant ways to handle the level cap then the current method, so I don't really support it in general. However, the bosses don't particularly need an exception.
Perhaps it was just the whims of RNG, but there was one time I ran a team through a mission where everything went right-- kept stress low, the foes generally fell before my team like wheat before the scythe, and was a smashing success all around.
Come the post-mission screen, every member of the team got hit with either 'soft' or 'calm'-- not terrible traits, but bad traits. While in some ways it seems pretty silly ("oh, those bandits barely shot me!") that might be a balancing mechanism. Use your crack team on a challenge, they get rusty from the easy tasks.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 07, 2015, 06:32:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2015, 06:38:40 pm
Post by: ScottP on February 07, 2015, 06:40:15 pm
Post by: Tnx on February 07, 2015, 06:41:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2015, 07:45:34 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 07, 2015, 08:38:17 pm
... you know, in a way I'd not mind if, once a character accumulated enough negative quirks, it got auto-removed or somesuch, thus encouraging even more hero-cycling. I think Nenjin has a point - your heroes are supposed to be even more expendable than xcom's agents (and boy were those expendable.). That's why you keep getting "simpler" missions.
In fact I'm beginning to consider that as a strategy. Instead of keeping two teams of heroes, keep an A-team which will get cash investments to keep reasonably calm and quirkless as they level up, and then use as team B on easy missions whatever arrives on the coach.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 07, 2015, 09:04:45 pm
You need OpenGL 3.2+ in order to play this. So older laptops probably won't cut it.
Why a game with such shitty graphics would have such a high graphics requirement...especially since it didn't always have that requirement, I'll never know...
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2015, 09:08:56 pm
I dunno, maybe check if you've got some updates for your motherboard drivers. Maybe support for OpenGL 3.2 on mobile and integrated chipsets is something relatively new but patchable.
Post by: Tnx on February 07, 2015, 09:25:31 pm
Post by: Zangi on February 07, 2015, 10:03:16 pm
So on the topic of getting traits; Imma side with the "totally makes no sense" camp. I went through a dungeon with no humans or beasts, and two come out with hating humans and hating beasts... Also I'm getting a few guys who still get clashing traits (can only pray and refuses to pray) with the latest update, I'm guessing I have to do a fresh save?You can use the sanitarium. Not a huge loss of cash, compared to starting over. If the Sanitarium is not unlocked yet, play another week or two.
Of course, if are already looking for a reason to restart... can't help you there. The only reason would be to get a new Ditmas and Reynauld... >.>
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 07, 2015, 10:23:29 pm
TBH I'm thinking the sanitarium is only justified for A-team, highly upgraded characters. For maintenance, cash-grabbing runs? Meh, just send them whichever four morons show up in the coach and scrounge whatever cash they find.
Post by: Stuebi on February 08, 2015, 08:30:59 am
- Way too much RNG for my taste. I can handle a bit of "WTF?", but I was killed in the Tutorial this morning by multiple Crits in a row. Heck, am I the only one who thinks Crits happen way too often? I´m pretty sure that I´m looking at a 60:40 / 70:30 rate here. And that just seems like too much. Especially if AOE´s Crit on the whole party. In town, sometimes that one guy takes up spaces in the Tavern or Church. Combine that with the fact that there are a LOT of quirks around that limit stress relief to one activitiy, and you have another perfect case of "No, up yours." from the game. Heck, even SCOUTING is bloody random. "No, you WILL walk into these 3 or 4 traps, because we say so and we dont care that you want to play carefully.".
- Bleed and Blight seem hillariously useless on anything but Bosses. In any regular fight, you want to kill everything as fast as possible. There is absolutely no reason to use a DoT that can potentially miss, not apply it´s effect (RESIST LOL) and only does 2 damage max on the hit itself. Stun is, thank god, very useful for keeping some of the really mean attacks from hitting.
- Some of the characters could use some tweaking. I really think the Vestal, Vistal or whatever her class is named, is bloody useless. Her heal is outclassed by a HUGE margin with the Occultist and she doesnt have any other moves that really stick out to me. Plague Doctor suffers heavily from Blight being nigh useless. Also, if you want to use his actual damage ailities, you have to place him in one of the front rows, where he cant use most of his utlity. Saving grace is his double back row stun (Because FU*K those crossbows, and muskets) and Damage buff.
- The game should really cut people some slack in the early game. Start out a bit slow, give people time to adjust and at least allow me to get a basic upgrade or two, and a few more guys. Currently, you can end up with 4 of 7 people being stressed out after the very first freaking run. And remember that stress relief costs upwards 1k early on.
All in all, the art style is amazing and I like the setting. But as far as gameplay is concerned, there is way too much dice rolling, and not enough things that let me influence how well I´m doing. Don´t try to tell that any of the Fans or over in the main forums tough. The main response I´ve gotten was "Git Gud".
Post by: TempAcc on February 08, 2015, 08:51:14 am
The occultist is good but his heal might fuck you up when you need it most.
From what I've noticed, some classes are more useful from the get go, while others take some leveling to become useful. I've tried leveling a jester and a grave robber, and they become way more useful after you upgrade them, despite being rather underwhelming at first.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 08, 2015, 09:05:14 am
Plague Doctor is alright at best, he still feels the most useless to me, though his AoE stun is pretty awesome, otherwise his purpose is shuffling enemies around and chipping away at tough things. Problem is he's about the only guy who does blight effects so you can't stack it very easily, and does pathetic damage so the DoT doesn't make up for it.
Bleed is much, much better than blight (except on skeletons), as generally the skills that cause bleed don't sacrifice much, or any, raw damage for it (look at the Helion or Jester, their bleed skills are awesome). And more classes use bleeds so you can stack it really quickly. I'm also generally happy to leave an enemy with a DoT guaranteed to kill it in a turn or two, and switch fire to the next target (while maybe throwing a weak stun on it). It also starts getting more useful as you get to the veteran missions, as you see a lot more big high-hp enemies to bleed out.
In my opinion the Vestal is god, hell I've got three of them and never, ever leave without one. The Occultist can heal more, but on average he heals a single person for about the same as the Vestal does (he wins by like 0.5 hp at even skill ranks), and if you're against stuff that bleeds you his downside can be really bad (and even if not it can completely negate that heal). The other advantage is you have the full party heal which looks crappy at first but is basically her primary heal, while the single target one is more for emergencies. Don't underestimate how good healing the whole team for 2-4 (depending on skill rank) per turn is. The Occultist can get overwhelmed by AoEs and the enemy just not focus firing, the Vestal can't. I barely even use the Vestal's other abilities.
In terms of classes that ramp up as they level I think the Leper wins as he starts taking low enough damage that you can keep up with heals, and his accuracy problems start getting solved. His damage is utterly ludicrous, the Helion is the only thing that comes close. I like seeing crits for 40 damage, or AoE crits for 20. It's pretty nice.
Post by: TempAcc on February 08, 2015, 09:20:44 am
Post by: Sindain on February 08, 2015, 10:27:03 am
So far the most damaging thing in the game I've seen is a leveled merc using his collect bounty ability on a marked enemy. I had a level 2 merc with upgraded equipment crit for 40 damage with that. I wish there was another class that could mark enemies, so I could use it in tandem with the merc rather then having to use a second merc to make quick use of it. Its really great for bosses regardless, since the marked status lasts for a long time.
Occultists can mark.
So, here my first thoughts on the game, after playing it for around 5 to 8 hours:
- Bleed and Blight seem hillariously useless on anything but Bosses. In any regular fight, you want to kill everything as fast as possible. There is absolutely no reason to use a DoT that can potentially miss, not apply it´s effect (RESIST LOL) and only does 2 damage max on the hit itself. Stun is, thank god, very useful for keeping some of the really mean attacks from hitting.
Re Dots:
Since I didn't use them much on my first play through, I've been making it a point to use both a jester and a plague doctor a lot in my second play through, which makes for a very dot heavy team. I've found dots to be... not bad. A couple good +blight/bleed chance items really remove the worries about resist (and are almost necessary to counteract the increasing resistance of veteran and champion enemies). Furthermore they're rather useful against the tough "mini boss" monsters you start seeing in veteran like ghouls, swinetaurs, and blighted giants.
Though plague doctors kinda have a problem in that both the Swine and the fungal monsters have good resistances to blight, so the Ruins are the only place the plague doctor can make full use of her offensive capabilities. Though this will presumably be less of an issue in the final release with the final two dungeons available.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 08, 2015, 10:55:07 am
WARNING!Oh, poo! Thanks for the info, I was wondering about that. I guess I won't be wasting my 20 EUR then!
You need OpenGL 3.2+ in order to play this. So older laptops probably won't cut it.
Why a game with such shitty graphics would have such a high graphics requirement...especially since it didn't always have that requirement, I'll never know...
Post by: Vector on February 08, 2015, 11:55:13 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 08, 2015, 01:42:26 pm
Post by: Biowraith on February 08, 2015, 02:18:46 pm
In town highly stressed characters will beg not to be sent back out.
In the dungeon a character who has 'broken' from maxing their stress will make comments according to the type of failed resolve (Paranoid, Hopeless, Abusive, etc). I'm not in a position to judge whether the comments could/would be triggering, but if any were I imagine it'd be some of the Hopeless ones, maybe Masochistic or Fearful too (some comments accepting harm/death as inevitable, even welcoming or inviting it). Sometimes they'll skip their turn or take action of their own accord. In the case of Hopeless and/or Masochistic (I forget if it's both) they will sometimes injure themselves, which comprises a 2 frame animation accompanied by the usual attack hit sound and damage number floating up.
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2015, 03:23:39 pm
Re: Occultist vs. Vestal. Vestal can still totally get overwhelmed by AoEs, especially at the beginning. 2 + 5 isn't even enough to cover half of a nasty crit. Occultist heal maxes at 10 to start but there's a lot of variance. He will heal for 0 sometimes, and when he does that two to three times in a fight and maybe adds some bleed, it puts the Vestal's reliability in perspective. They are my favorite support pair at this point though. They compliment each other's short comings nicely. Not sure I'd want them for a boss fight because that's a low damage party, but for general dungeon survival they are teh best. Especially if your Crusader has his stress heal.
Blight sucks because it has no damage component in any application you get. Bleed does though. I don't get the reasoning. If Blight did more damage, were more reliably applied or resisted less often, the fact it does no damage on application would seem more justified. Meanwhile, Bleed works on the majority of guys, has plenty of damage added in with the attack and can be stacked pretty easily until you're doing 5 damage a round, or more. Blight doesn't last longer, hit harder or affect stats in any other way we know about. So, yeah. Make Blight 2 to 3 damage base per stack, or let it last twice as long, and let it do 80% damage on the Plague Doctor's attack like most abilities, and I think it'd be right on par with Bleed. Plague Doctor is the closest thing we have to a pure support character, not because of the quality of her support abilities, but because of the near total lack of damage abilities that are worthwhile. She's also like one of the most vulnerable characters to get moved out of the back ranks. I've had Plague Doctors that can do nothing from the front two ranks. Nothing at all.
In a similar vein, while the Occultist is more obviously useful, his damage pretty much sucks compared to melee. Haven't diddled with his front rank attacks yet, mostly because one of them comes with -5 Torch....which there's no way in hell I'm using that, except in the most dire circumstances.
Post by: Vector on February 08, 2015, 06:38:59 pm
Post by: Stuebi on February 09, 2015, 10:03:04 am
The actual statements range from overwrought despair to the absurdly macabre to Alien Movies quotes. The only voiced thing in the game is the narrator.
Re: Occultist vs. Vestal. Vestal can still totally get overwhelmed by AoEs, especially at the beginning. 2 + 5 isn't even enough to cover half of a nasty crit. Occultist heal maxes at 10 to start but there's a lot of variance. He will heal for 0 sometimes, and when he does that two to three times in a fight and maybe adds some bleed, it puts the Vestal's reliability in perspective. They are my favorite support pair at this point though. They compliment each other's short comings nicely. Not sure I'd want them for a boss fight because that's a low damage party, but for general dungeon survival they are teh best. Especially if your Crusader has his stress heal.
Blight sucks because it has no damage component in any application you get. Bleed does though. I don't get the reasoning. If Blight did more damage, were more reliably applied or resisted less often, the fact it does no damage on application would seem more justified. Meanwhile, Bleed works on the majority of guys, has plenty of damage added in with the attack and can be stacked pretty easily until you're doing 5 damage a round, or more. Blight doesn't last longer, hit harder or affect stats in any other way we know about. So, yeah. Make Blight 2 to 3 damage base per stack, or let it last twice as long, and let it do 80% damage on the Plague Doctor's attack like most abilities, and I think it'd be right on par with Bleed. Plague Doctor is the closest thing we have to a pure support character, not because of the quality of her support abilities, but because of the near total lack of damage abilities that are worthwhile. She's also like one of the most vulnerable characters to get moved out of the back ranks. I've had Plague Doctors that can do nothing from the front two ranks. Nothing at all.
In a similar vein, while the Occultist is more obviously useful, his damage pretty much sucks compared to melee. Haven't diddled with his front rank attacks yet, mostly because one of them comes with -5 Torch....which there's no way in hell I'm using that, except in the most dire circumstances.
After fiddling around with her a bit more, I have to revise my previous statement a bit. The Vestal has a reliable groupheal (8 per Round,2 on each character, once you upgrade it) and a pretty decent singletarget (3-5 vanilla). Judgement and Illumination are also great, both able to hit those stupid, debuffing fothermuckers in the back row, and illumination even stuns! She is not bad at first, but witha few levels and upgrades, she becomes absolutely fantastic.
And I don't think the Occultists Damage sucks that bad. Abyssal Artillery deals pretty consistent damage to the back line (And usually, that's where the enemies with really annoying abilities lie). And try out his vulnerability Hex combined with the Bounty Hunter. I tell you, I've blown up Bandit Bloodletters the very first turn with this stuff.
A word of advice for people coming in fresh. Do not, under ANY circumstance, attempt Veteran missions before you have a Party fully on Level 3 and with a decent amount of upgrades. Even disregarding the randomness, they WILL murder you.
A bit more on the radnomness thing. After figuring a few things out (Which Lootitem goes on which interactable, for example. Some of them are...weird, or at least hard to figure out. Took me a while to realize that Bandage+Corpse was a thing) and fiddling around with the skills some more, I can pretty reliably take down the Necromancer Apprentice and get a few guys on Level 3. But that's usually where the game starts to kick me pretty hard. Both the Hag and the Swine Prince are really hard (SP critted me for 46 on the first turn. You what?) and as I said above, the Veteran Missions are REALLY frustrating if you lack a completely decked out team, which mainly depends on how lucky you were in terms of gold and Upgrade-Material. I have no idea why, but getting Portraits seems to be the biggest drag ever. I can practically decorate my walls with Crests (50 currently), but even on missions where it specifically says that there will be Portraits, I get 2, maybe 3.
Basically, either I lack the gold to actually take advantage of the Upgrades, or I have the gold but lack the material to unlock ways to spend it. It would be cool if there was a way to buy a few mats somewhere in the estate. It's infuriating when I lack 1-2 things to upgrade the Guild Hall or Blacksmith.
Lastly, and this may sound whiny and weird, but the turnorder drives me mental. There isnt any indication on who moves when, and it seems completely arbitary at times. Enemies who went last on one turn, go first the very next. Without any Buffs or Debuffs being involved. It's at the point where I stack almost every Meele class with Trinkets that sacrifice Speed for Crit or Damage, because honestly, it doesnt seem to matter at all. It would really up the tactical aspect a bit if you coud actually tell "who moves when".
Also, I think the patched the quirkissue. I didnt get any contradicting ones in my last playtrough, after patching. But I still get some at weird times. Why would I get "manhater" after fighting Pigs and spiders? How do you develop a fear of skeletons while out in the warren?
Post by: TempAcc on February 09, 2015, 11:45:28 am
Its hard to live without the merc once you get used to him though, due to just how insanely good his flashbang is. Not only does it stun, but it also displaces enemies. So if you use it against the enemy in the furthest back of the enemy group, chances are they'll not only be stunned, but also get moved to the front of the enemies, where they'll die very fast.
Post by: puke on February 09, 2015, 01:43:19 pm
Lastly, and this may sound whiny and weird, but the turnorder drives me mental. There isnt any indication on who moves when, and it seems completely arbitary at times. Enemies who went last on one turn, go first the very next.
Wow, I had heard that this had some Torchbearer inspiration, and it sounds like that is true.
If they are drawing from the tabletop RPG, the players (or ai in this case) controlling the entire side decides which of its units to act on the side's turn. The GM advice tells you to do this very thing, essentially using double actions at the end-then-start of rounds to screw the players over.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2015, 04:46:45 pm
Post by: lordcooper on February 09, 2015, 05:27:41 pm
Blight sucks because it has no damage component in any application you get.
That isn't true.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2015, 05:40:26 pm
Blight sucks because it has no damage component in any application you get.
That isn't true.
K, what ability does it get used with that doesn't result in 1 to 2 damage on strike?
Oh I suppose you mean the Graverobber's Blight Dart? Damage still seems pretty nerfed compared to your average bleed-inflicting attack.
Post by: Zangi on February 09, 2015, 06:28:15 pm
Grave Robber's blighter thing does more then 1-2 damage. Also another surprising one, Plague Doctor's single target blighter does more then 1-2 damage.Blight sucks because it has no damage component in any application you get.
That isn't true.
K, what ability does it get used with that doesn't result in 1 to 2 damage on strike?
If I remember correctly, at level 0, they do 3-4 damage.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2015, 06:30:24 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 09, 2015, 06:44:34 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2015, 06:49:52 pm
I'd rather see bleed and blight do different things. Right now they're just different labels on the same basic effect. It'd be better if blight had more of a debuff effect with slight damage and bleed was more damage oriented. It'd make things much more interesting.
I don't disagree but I'd be satisfied just with numerical difference that matter for the time being. Bleed as the fast running, stackable damage. Blight as the long running, good base damage DoT.
Post by: Intrinsic on February 11, 2015, 04:30:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 11, 2015, 04:58:54 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 11, 2015, 05:33:39 pm
Well that's a good start. Now let's hear about some crit changes. ><(http://cdn.techtub.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/057-262x123.jpg)
BTW: One thing I'd like would be erm, (before you kill me hear me out), escort missions. As boss missions. Or the starting mission. Namely I'd like in certain plot-justifiedish situations that the game spawned missions which involved escorting Charname to point X in order to perform an action and win the mission.
In these, just as in the starting mission, the death of Charname is tantamount to game over. Therefore it's important to beef up your escort before attempting these.
Post by: Retropunch on February 12, 2015, 01:11:55 am
PUT IN THE DAMNED TURN ORDER!!!!!
Post by: Stuebi on February 12, 2015, 01:53:58 am
Also curious, the Blight Damage increase on the PD. Does it do 3 damage per round? 2?
Post by: Sindain on February 12, 2015, 08:07:42 am
Also curious, the Blight Damage increase on the PD. Does it do 3 damage per round? 2?
It does 5 at max, I don't happen to have a first level blight doctor on hand to tell then but I'm guessing 3.
Post by: Whivy on February 12, 2015, 08:40:55 am
It didn't bother me at start, but i do think leveling is kinda slow after a while. I got 3 level 3 caracters (one was close to be level 3 so i brought him along for my first veteran run... haha... poor guy... guess i'll find another one to join up the "badass" team), but the amount of time needed to get them to be at this level (+equipment) is, imo, huuuuuge.
I'm even starting to fear the day i will have to use them because, if one dies, oh god, i don't want to level up another again. And doing only apprentice runs with secondary caracters is getting boring actually.
So yeah, my excitation is slowy but surely dying out.
Oh, and did anyone had problem with the old mofo hag? What is the strategy here? She killed two whole squad already, and one was with my "chosen one" caracter (i even renamed him Aragorn, do you know how important he was to me old bitch? DO YOU ?). She keeps pulling one of my best caracter in her fucking chamber pot, cooking him slowy and, god, how many actions does she has? She can put one in the pot, get one of my caracter sick and blow them with a spoon of her fucking soup before my team wakes up. And as soon as i get my member out of the pot (cause most of the time, it's the one who is the most important to attack her, in the back) she just puts him back in, like you know, it's fun.
Post by: Sindain on February 12, 2015, 08:44:42 am
Oh, and did anyone had problem with the old mofo hag? What is the strategy here? She killed two whole squad already, and one was with my "chosen one" caracter (i even renamed him Aragorn, do you know how important he was to me old bitch? DO YOU ?). She keeps pulling one of my best caracter in her fucking chamber pot, cooking him slowy and, god, how many actions does she has? She can put one in the pot, get one of my caracter sick and blow them with a spoon of her fucking soup before my team wakes up. And as soon as i get my member out of the pot (cause most of the time, it's the one who is the most important to attack her, in the back) she just puts him back in, like you know, it's fun.
Just ignore the pot, wham on the Hag. She's the most fragile of the bosses so she goes down quick. Dot's are extremely effective 'cause she gets multiple turns a round, so If It Bleeds and Bleed Out are your friend. Obviously your team has to be very good at long range fighting for this since she has an immortal front line.
Post by: nenjin on February 12, 2015, 10:29:35 am
Post by: TempAcc on February 12, 2015, 10:50:06 am
Post by: Zangi on February 12, 2015, 11:33:09 am
As for a crusader/leper... Or a hellion/highwayman with only front hitting skills, they could destroy the pot in 1-2 hits by themselves if you upgraded them to max, maybe with vestal help. (Apprentice Hag)
I breezed it with vestal, grave robber, highwayman and crusader. Fully upgraded em. (This was before the recent balance change.)
Post by: Wiles on February 12, 2015, 12:17:27 pm
Post by: Biowraith on February 12, 2015, 12:50:56 pm
Bring a merc to mark her and use collect bounty or a helion and you'll be fine. Grave robber might be good too.Alas, Collect Bounty can't target her - she's considered to be the back 2 spots and CB targets the front 2.
Which I discovered the hard way - my first attempt was a Vestal-Occultist-Bounty Hunter-Leper group that had just destroyed the Necromancer Apprentice, but could barely touch the Hag (only ranged move the BH had was the Pull attack, and Occultist just had the debuffs).
Second attempt was with a Highwayman-Occultist-Jester-Leper group with skills selected specifically for the encounter, and crushed her in about 4 rounds.
Post by: TempAcc on February 12, 2015, 01:43:32 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 12, 2015, 02:59:17 pm
Post by: Retropunch on February 12, 2015, 03:32:24 pm
I'm all for hard (the harder the better!), but you need rewards and progress of some sort.
Really it's all down to RNG. While something like DCSS uses RNG for everything, it manages to feel mostly fair. With this you just get a few crits or tempting goblets in a row and you've just lost your entire team. Turn order would help with this (as you'd be able to plan more) or just toning down the amount of stress abilities/crits.
Post by: Whivy on February 13, 2015, 05:21:41 am
Post by: Majestic7 on February 13, 2015, 05:36:59 am
Likewise, would be nice to sometimes get higher level heroes right from the coach. Some kind of (your lowest level hero)-2 formula or the like.
Post by: Whivy on February 13, 2015, 08:08:25 am
Yeah, I feel the same; the game doesn't really reward you much for success. In a way it reminds me of Oblivion, the tougher you get the tougher the enemies get, negating the benefit of leveling up. Beating bosses likewise gives you nothing... So it would be nice if you get get at least some permanent, village-related boosts from your success occasionally, so even hero mortality wouldn't be the main problem.
Likewise, would be nice to sometimes get higher level heroes right from the coach. Some kind of (your lowest level hero)-2 formula or the like.
Yeah that's what i was thinking too. I'm not sure i will have the willpower to go back to level 1 dungeon if my level 5 team is wiped out. Feel a bit like starting over, minus the rusty equipment.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2015, 10:17:54 am
I've got through quite a few weeks now, and I still feel the biggest problem is the lack of a feeling of progress. I come off every mission without feeling like I've achieved something, I've sort of just done a mission to keep things about equal with some small advances or back steps depending on how lucky I've been.
I'm all for hard (the harder the better!), but you need rewards and progress of some sort.
Really it's all down to RNG. While something like DCSS uses RNG for everything, it manages to feel mostly fair. With this you just get a few crits or tempting goblets in a row and you've just lost your entire team. Turn order would help with this (as you'd be able to plan more) or just toning down the amount of stress abilities/crits.
The issue between this and more traditional roguelikes is that roguelikes tend to have means of circumventing the randomness. You're really only beholden to the RNG in the very early game, before you've gathered the resources to survive challenges. Even then, almost any death in DCSS or Nethack or other "true" Roguelikes can be traced back to some bad decision you made regarding resource usage or tactics. That's why it feels fair. Classic roguelikes are about using tactics and resource management to overcome randomized challenges.
You don't even need to look into it that far. If DCSS were as random as people like to think, you wouldn't be able to streak two or three or five or twelve wins in a row.
This is different. Random chance in this can absolutely ruin your game with no meaningful decision on your part. It's more like FTL, where a bad sector layout or an unfortunate combination of weapons on an enemy ship can make the game unwinnable.
Post by: Whivy on February 13, 2015, 01:26:05 pm
Post by: Fikes on February 13, 2015, 02:54:17 pm
I don't really see this game as all that difficult possibly because I am quick to cut and run. In fact any time my guys get surprised and disorganized I retreat and try again.
I am taking the game slowly and haven't done much of note even though it is week 15 or something.
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2015, 03:08:30 pm
If the enemy landed 9 critical hits and your boys were near death, why not just flee?
I don't really see this game as all that difficult possibly because I am quick to cut and run. In fact any time my guys get surprised and disorganized I retreat and try again.
I am taking the game slowly and haven't done much of note even though it is week 15 or something.
The main issue to start is money. For me, a reasonably provisioned short or medium run starts at $3k gold. So you actually need to make, PLUS ~$2k to $3k it might cost to pay down the stress on guys you want to keep. THEN anything after that is profit.
So, just running away and/or quitting the dungeon often won't leave you breaking even. Late game when you've got $30k gold or w/e, it's not a big deal. In the first few weeks though, bad runs like that start you on a downward spiral. I personally hate just recruiting 4 guys and sending them in with no provisions, hoping to turn a profit. But you can be reduced to that in the early game with a few exceptionally bad runs. Especially if it's in the first fight or two of the run.
Post by: Zangi on February 13, 2015, 03:26:23 pm
If money is that tight, you'll have to cut some of your keepers out and/or let them languish in depravity till your financial situation is improved.
In a green short run, you can clear it with 8 food, 4 torches and 1-2 shovels with 4 fresh ones. Or at the least, retreat when appropriate.
Green medium runs, I regularly do them with 12 food, 6 torches and 2-3 shovels. Of course, retreating when it gets bad...
... If you do bring extra stuff like keys, bandages and medicine, they pay out for themselves in extra stuff/gold, if you know where to slot em. Short runs, 1 of each and medium runs, 2 of each. Should come out to paying for themselves and providing extra heirlooms by the end, if you manage to use at least half of em.
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2015, 04:15:43 pm
You do have progress in the way of heirloom items... that is, if you make it back.
If money is that tight, you'll have to cut some of your keepers out and/or let them languish in depravity till your financial situation is improved.
In a green short run, you can clear it with 8 food, 4 torches and 1-2 shovels with 4 fresh ones. Or at the least, retreat when appropriate.
Green medium runs, I regularly do them with 12 food, 6 torches and 2-3 shovels. Of course, retreating when it gets bad...
... If you do bring extra stuff like keys, bandages and medicine, they pay out for themselves in extra stuff/gold, if you know where to slot em. Short runs, 1 of each and medium runs, 2 of each. Should come out to paying for themselves and providing extra heirlooms by the end, if you manage to use at least half of em.
They pay for themselves if:
-you know what the right items go with what curios
-the right curios spawn (Got one run where I had 5 sarcophagi spawn.)
-you don't decide to ditch them when inventory space fills up with 1 stack of gems or w/e.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 13, 2015, 04:40:56 pm
Don't get me wrong, I like the game and the atmosphere and all... I just think this is THE major problem. RNG can fuck you up at any time, but you don't really get any reward for success.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2015, 04:51:29 pm
I've heard that the difficulty drops big time once your guys are close to maxed out. That's a sign that the difficulty isn't in tactical choices but in being strong enough to just bludgeon through the randomness. The question of winning darkest dungeon isn't "Can you swim?" but "Are you tall enough to keep your head out of the water?"
Post by: darkflagrance on February 13, 2015, 05:29:10 pm
The way to control rng is to limit the negative effects bad rolls can have. That's not to say I haven't had members blasted to zero health in one turn before, but minor set backs like that are part of the game, and, I daresay, fun. Even hitting 100 stress is not the end.
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2015, 05:48:59 pm
That said, it still isn't very sexy as loot, with those penalties staring you back in the face.
Post by: Retropunch on February 15, 2015, 06:04:37 pm
I'm hoping they'll keep making a few patches and it'll balance out the difficulty curve more. Even just a bit of tweaking to the rewards/loot would do wonders for this game.
Post by: Rakonas on February 15, 2015, 06:09:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 15, 2015, 07:36:23 pm
I do have to praise the general art and sound direction, though. Very nice battle aesthetics.
Post by: Mattk50 on February 15, 2015, 09:54:49 pm
Post by: BishopX on February 16, 2015, 09:05:17 am
Post by: Karkov on February 25, 2015, 02:14:15 am
One of my friends however decided to break the game something awful though. (http://www.twitch.tv/paladinlord10/c/6056562) (Twitch highlight)
Post by: Yolan on February 26, 2015, 02:26:21 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 27, 2015, 05:51:03 pm
There are two big level problems with it. First of all, the progression in this game is badly done, arguably not even implemented yet. All the skills scale in the same way, I think for damaging skills its something like +5% accuracy +1% crit per level, which does little for some skills and is massively important for others. Its pretty clear that the skill scaling was done in an hour or two by one person inputting a bunch of arbitrary numbers. The enemies are basically the same, there are a few additions but for the most part its the same guys with some numbers changed. Not even recolors IRRC.
The second is that it has this xcom style over-arching campaign progress BUT even though you can lose things permanently there's no loss condition and nothing that would really stop players from continuing to play. Once you understand how it works it really sucks the tension out of everything. There's always at least one lvl 1 mission to play, no real cost to retreating, and new characters are free.
Post by: nenjin on February 27, 2015, 06:03:01 pm
Personally I'm not a fan of doom clocks because I like to take my time, but I can understand why others need something like that to give consequence to outcomes.
Post by: Ghazkull on February 28, 2015, 05:55:36 am
Post by: pisskop on February 28, 2015, 09:10:28 am
Either way, ptw.
Post by: nenjin on February 28, 2015, 04:40:43 pm
It's also far less crunchy mechanically than your average JRPG.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 28, 2015, 07:20:16 pm
So yeah, you can like that hero it took forever to level up, and if you've only got one of a class you can grow attached to that. But I often find myself having difficulty telling them apart otherwise, especially as your roster gets bigger.
Post by: nenjin on February 28, 2015, 07:27:47 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 28, 2015, 07:55:00 pm
I once had this terrible plague doctor who had a mess of negative quirks; notably he had a disease that made him weaker to further disease and another disease with very bad effects. A few missions later he'd "cured" himself because all of his terrible negative quirks had been randomly replaced with meaningless "mania" quirks. So he had no meaningful negative quirks and a mass of positive quirks, didn't even matter which since positive quirks come so frequently that they quickly fill up and start erasing each other.
Post by: Retropunch on March 01, 2015, 07:20:00 am
Agreed that transience of quirks and how arbitrarily they're assigned is a big minus in caring about your guys. They played up Pre-Kickstarter that those were somehow nuanced but right now it just seems to be a big 'ol random mess. They haven't had too much to say on that front, either.This was something that disappointed me. I kept looking for meaning in how the perks were given but it seemed completely random. They also played up a lot about how unique the personality and the traits would make each character, whereas really they're just a collection of stat. changes. Even if they had done something like given them different clothing and a few different 'end game' skills, that'd have spiced stuff up a bit.
Whilst I did have fun with DD and I do think it's a fun game, it just hasn't kept my interest over time. For those of you wanting to find out what it's like, I'd suggest playing 'Monsters Den 2' (on kongregate and other places) it's pretty much the same but the combat is a lot more involved and, whilst it doesn't have the personality that DD has, it is more polished.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 22, 2015, 04:26:14 pm
This is one suggestion on how I would do it:
- Increase the risk of random encounters. Heck, make random encounters patrol the dungeon.
- Add an extra variable. Stamina, or somesuch.
- Out of combat actions (healing, scouting) deplete stamina. It recovers slowly over time (just like light recovers slowly over time). Stress affects negatively to stamina recoverly.
- Out of combat actions are (as a general rule) noisy, and draw the patrolling encounters towards you.
Post by: nenjin on March 22, 2015, 04:42:42 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 22, 2015, 04:44:12 pm
Post by: nenjin on April 11, 2015, 01:38:10 pm
Post by: Yoink on May 21, 2015, 09:08:59 pm
A brief search through my inbox revealed that they actually sent me a Steam key a while back... hopefully this new laptop of mine can run the game. Installing it now, I'll give it a try later on. :)
Post by: Jeshin on May 21, 2015, 09:53:24 pm
Post by: Yoink on May 22, 2015, 04:57:57 pm
Seriously the rate of gaining stress and insanity is... well, insane.
Still going to keep playing it, though. :)
Edit: After playing it for quite a while, I can conform that this game is not particularly fun in its current state. Hopefully they make some changes before release.
I'm all for difficulty, but afflictions are terribly annoying at the moment, and there is no way to avoid them.
The only way to really progress through the game seems to be just throwing expendables into the dungeon, grabbing a bit of loot and then letting them die to free up space for new, able-minded adventurers. Maybe that's what the devs are going for, but it doesn't make for a fun experience in my opinion.
Post by: nenjin on May 28, 2015, 10:46:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you stress about money in the early game, being able to sell your trinkets is a godsend. Not only can you keep the clutter down, they are easily worth a single instance of dungeon loot most of the time. Trinkets somehow seem less crappy in their stats too.
The game is perhaps a little more forgiving, at least based on this playthrough I started. I've only lost one character (that was due to two bullshit crits back to back and then a finishing attack), and I've only had to abandon two or three of 12 attempts. Darkness penalties and bonuses were tweaked to make it more threatening. More stress, less crit chance. There's some late game balancing tweaks in there somewhere, mostly HP on monsters.
If characters get afflicted and then maxes out their stress bar again, they die of a heart attack. It's unclear whether the same is true if you got a virtue.
Generally speaking, the AI feels like it's better about singling out weak characters. Like whatever % chance they have to go for the obvious attack is more in their favor.
Another thing I've noticed is Obsessions seem to be getting handed out way more at the end of missions. I've got multiple guys with 3 and 4 obsessions at this point. They're the kind of thing you tend to ignore because they don't hurt you that bad, but when your party is liable to bum rush every single curio in the map, it can start to cause problems.
Heal crits are a thing now. Some of the bigger heals can now crit for nice, large heals. It's not anything to count on, but when it happens when you need it, it's a godsend.
The Arbalest and Man-At-Arms are in. The Arbalest seems less like a damage dealer and more like a support character. She's got a nice 2 point heal that buffs other heals on that character by 20%. You don't notice the effect much until someone crits, then you get nice, 20+ point heals. She's got a +Torch ability that removes stun and marked debuffs. All in all, she's like a more appealing Plague Doctor in my mind.
The Man-At-Arms is a big beefy tank with a shield, and it's not just his looks. At first I wasn't too impressed with his abilities, but he a) seems to take less damage than either the Leper or the Crusader b) has a stun with forward 1 c) has an attack that gives him a riposte buff, so he does a regular attack when the next person attacks him in melee, AND d) he has a +10 PROT buff that also makes him soak hits against other players. He seems like a real tank, and is quickly becoming a favorite of mine.
Post by: Yoink on May 28, 2015, 11:26:46 pm
Not sure I like this update at all. None of the balance changes I was actually hoping for are in effect. :-/
I'll probably start a new game to test out the two new classes, I guess.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 29, 2015, 01:09:37 am
Selling trinkets is nice.
I'm still missing for something else to do than just put heroes into the grinder. It would be nice if there was some strategic width to the hamlet and the territories in general.
Post by: rumpel on May 29, 2015, 01:14:39 am
"Balance changes" = multiple nerfs to heroes, buffs to all the baddies that were already painful to fight.
Not sure I like this update at all. None of the balance changes I was actually hoping for are in effect. :-/
I'll probably start a new game to test out the two new classes, I guess.
The new classes are cool!
Also I didn't play for quite a long time and in my opinion it felt a lot easier, though.
Post by: debvon on May 30, 2015, 06:07:49 am
Post by: Sindain on May 30, 2015, 01:28:29 pm
Third real run in the game, had a crusader, plague doctor, occultist and an arbalest in that order in my line-up. Only my plague doctor wasn't a rookie. Left the first room, spotted an interactble object I've never seen before. Looked at it, its description said "Sacrifice a torch to summon the abyss". Thought "Why the hell not" and used a torch on it.
Following that, the torch level was set to pitch black and I was ambushed by this mean motherfucker called a "Shambler". Two spaces large, 77 hp, capable of summoning adds, most of his attacks hit the entire party, all of his attacks caused either blight, bleed, or extra stress damage, and of course, his adds also caused extra stress damage. At one point the Shambler did over 140 cumulative stress damage with a single hit.
My party fought bravely and killed the beast, barely. Everyone hit 100 stress, the only person who didn't get an affliction was my plague doctor, who rolled vigorous. Coincidentally, she was also the only person to survive the fight, with 2 hp, so we wouldn't have won the fight without vigorous.
Got an ancestral trinket from it, obviously had to abandon the mission. Quite appropriately, my plague doctor got eldritch slayer.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 30, 2015, 05:41:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 30, 2015, 06:23:21 pm
I'm also kinda mixed on the Arbalest. She doesn't hit very hard and her abilities, while useful, don't stack up very well against the healers who would normally take her spot. Sort of like the Plague Doctor, every time I go to add her to the party I ask if I'd rather have a second healer-type instead and the answer is almost always yes.
Man-At-Arms is just beast though. I basically don't have to worry about him at all in terms of going from full to Death's Door in a turn. You certainly don't want for appealing tank options in this game. They've taken some accuracy penalties away from the Leper, so while the base accuracy of his attacks is still shit (65-ish) a couple of good trinkets can buff it to the point he's on par with the other tanks.
I've now made it further in this game than any other so far. Cleared all the Apprentice Level bosses, dabbled in some veteran runs. In like 12 hours, I did it with only two characters killed and ZERO Afflictions or Virtues occurring. I get now why players who have seen the end of the EA content say the mid to late game loses some difficulty. Lvl 2 armor and weapons really go a long way toward nullifying the starter monsters as threats, because the HP, PROT and DODGE increases are not trivial, and resolve resistance to stress is huge. Your crits starting getting monstrous as well. Level 2 gear seems to be the point at which you start having a fighting chance against everything. Skills, by comparison, only seem to be worth leveling for the additional accuracy and the higher debuff chance (since higher level monsters all have higher level resists.) The crit increases don't really seem to be worth it, and if the damage modifiers change, it must only be at higher levels. Heals still seem to be worth investing in though since the healing value does immediately scale up.
I suppose if you were hoping DD would be a giant wall of frustration and hopelessness late game, a never-ending meat grinder of an insurmountable challenge, I can see why it getting easier might be disappointing. I frankly welcome NOT getting my nuts stomped on every run.
Currently I have a Leper with 8 PROT between his gear, trinkets and quirks, and the guy is almost untouchable except by bosses and crits. It's so gratifying to watch 0s show up for damage when monsters try to attack him. Even a couple points of PROT is enough to nullify some weaker attacks (like Rabid Rush from the Weald hounds, or Scatter shot from the Brigand Shooters.) Investing in lvl 1 or 2 armor ASAP seems to be helpful.
Also investing in the Sanitarium now seems like it's more important. Like I said, obsessions seem to crop up a lot more now and diseases as quirks get more common outside of the ruins. Earning Quirks still seems almost completely random, which is a disappointment. I don't think all of them are, because I've noticed the people that end up with "Curious" tend to be the people I do most of my searching with. But when you abandon a run right as it starts and end up with 4 positive Quirks, it does make you question what's actually going on under the hood. And I'm forced to suspect: nothing more than RNG really.
For those that were frustrated by getting shit like "Godless" and "Witness" on the same character, many of them are mutually exclusive now, so they replace each other when earned. The system isn't perfect still, but the faults are entirely in your favor now. (For example, you can have Tippler (can only drink in town) along with Witness (cannot pray.) This essentially means Witness is a negative quirk with no effect. Hurray for you. I imagine they'll fix that.)
Also they added the mechanic where if combat goes on too long you start taking stress damage, and Stun Resistance buff to prevent chain stuns. All in the effort to stop the player from milking HP and Torch light and Stress heals during fights. Well, that's sort of true. The round cut off seems to be 10 rounds. At least, that's as long as I've let fights run and I still haven't seen stress barks in this version. You can do a lot of healing in ~6 rounds, especially with heal crits, and Stun Resistance is only 25% per stack, so you can still chain stun to a degree, at least on the weaker monsters early game. So milking fights to bolster your HP and reduce stress are still definitely a thing you can do, in moderation. Which is good, because ending fights with 5 HP is a recipe for disaster in your next fight.
It was 6am and I was still playing before I realized it. It's the first good sit down I've had with the game since I've bought it, as the length of this post probably tells you.
So it still seems to be that Lvl 0 and 1 are the hardest levels to get through as a player. Now that I have almost a full roster of level 2/3 guys, the game seems much, much easier. Every run isn't "Oh god, are they going to triple crit my healer?!??!!" They will, but, at least your healer stands a better chance of surviving once they're not a scrub anymore.
The game can still be fairly frustrating at times, especially early on when you don't feel like your bank roll and your sanity can handle a total party wipe or losing your best healer. I've developed a bit of a click-through problem with the game as well. (I've probably lost 5k to 10k gold clicking the wrong mission or forgetting to buy more than 1 torch and having to abandon the level, or clicking the wrong thing on loot windows even though I know better), and that's entirely due to the repetition. Fallen London gives me the same problems, because you're doing the same core activity (clicking a box) for 95% of game play.
Still, I finally feel like I've figured out how to play the game at my speed which is pretty important to me. I take it very slowly. I probably didn't kill any bosses for the first 8 or so hours. Which might seem silly to you guys, but given how I steamrolled pretty much everyone besides the Swine Prince, I'm pleased, because I don't want every fight to be a chair gripper. The only part I don't like is that you slowly phase out easier missions until you're not even guaranteed to see an apprentice mission every week. Which can put you in an awkward position when you have no characters or a viable party to run that week. My water mark for doing ok is being able to stay above 10k in gold, and I've managed to do that pretty much since the 4th week or so. One thing that helped was realizing medium + runs can be BIG money makers if you're willing to sacrifice all the heirlooms you encounter for treasure. I've had runs net 15k gold doing that.
My usual load out is:
8 food
5 torches
1 of every item
for Short Apprentice Runs
12 Food
6 - 7 torches
1 of every item
for Medium anything runs.
Doing that I almost never face starvation unless I'm forced to eat food to heal, and I can usually keep my torch between 100 and 50% the whole game. (Although I almost always bring a class that can generate light.) Some money tends to be wasted on the extra items that don't get used, but having them all means I can tap each curio for the best treasure at least once per game. (I ended up using a spoiler sheet for what the curios do. That also has helped me really maximize my profits per run, and minimized the trauma.)
So all in all...I feel like early game balance is coming along better, and weaker parts of the game (trinkets) are starting to get balanced to the point they're useful. (The easiest trinket decisions to make are like, damage reduction for PROT and Healing for your healers, and DODGE reduction for your tanks for PROT and damage buffs. DPS characters tend to need everything more which makes trinket decisions for them harder.) It does feel like the game is brutalizing you a little less, and that's good to me, because the front-loaded difficulty was definitely keeping me away from this game. If a game makes me rage out in the first two hours just trying to establish myself, it makes me think I'll be raging 2x as much once it gets harder, which causes me to not play. DD seems like it's starting to address this problem.
Post by: Yolan on May 31, 2015, 02:48:22 am
Like the UI a lot. From a game design perspective, it's giving me plenty to think of for emulating with Innkeep!
Combat feels pretty fun. So far after eight hours in though its if anything a little on the easy side. No deaths at all, and I haven't had to run away more than a couple of times.
If I had any gripes it would be...
1. Information overload. Lots and lots of little perks that seem to only do X in condition Y (like in a certain location, or if light level is a certain amount). Following all of this annoys me, and doesn't feel like it adds or takes much from the feel of the characters.
2. Lack of explanation. What do all these various stats do? Is that stat low? High? There are all kinds of buffs and debuffs going on with skills, spells, quirks and trinkets, but if I don't really know what the effect is how can I make good decisions? I guess I can find the game wiki and start researching, but I think the game could do a better job of introducing and managing this information. That links up a bit with #1 above. Some streamlining wouldn't hurt.
3. Character attachment - Would like that to be fleshed out more. I don't mind the perma-death, but I'd like to care a bit more about my guys. Being able to change the names and colors is cool, but I'm being encouraged by the meta-game to think of the individuals as all disposable. That seems to run against the tension of the combat though. Whatever guy dies, well, I have another couple in the wings.
4. Trinkets. Still not feeling it. Can I have equipment that doesn't harm me in some way pls? Forcing me to make my characters take on different roles, and building them together into a functioning team, that's all well and dandy. But does it really mean that we have to do away with that tried and true cornerstone of dungeon spelunking that is finding some nice little piece of equipment?
I guess I will have to wait and see how I feel when I get closer to the mid/end game. And of course it is still being developed. Right now I'd say, Plus: nice idea, nice aesthetics, generally nice execution. Minus: pretty confusing, and some conflict between the meta-game and the dungeon crawling that makes it hard to feel emotionally invested.
Post by: nenjin on May 31, 2015, 03:00:47 am
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1. & 2.
I think most of it is self-explanatory when you take the time think about it. Weapon accuracy is the base chance to hit, modified by Accuracy mod of the character. An enemies' dodge rating reduces this chance to hit further. When you miss, it means you rolled over your chance to hit. When they dodge, it means you didn't roll low enough to overcome their dodge stat. When you hit, you do the damage of the character (based on their weapon) modified by the damage mod of the skill they're attacking with (almost all skills reduce damage in some way, very few do more than normal damage.) PROT is a percentage of the character's maximum HP that reduces damage by that amount. So having 10 PROT with 40 HP means you take 4 less damage from every attack. Stuns and Blights and Bleeds all work the same way. You have a base chance, plus whatever trinkets you have, minus their resist, equals chance to land the effect.
It's not exactly straight forward so I agree it's a bit of overload. Mostly the tutorial doesn't explain any of the stats. But once I started taking the time to read tool tips, it started making more sense.
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3. Character attachment - Would like that to be fleshed out more. I don't mind the perma-death, but I'd like to care a bit more about my guys. Being able to change the names and colors is cool, but I'm being encouraged by the meta-game to think of the individuals as all disposable. That seems to run against the tension of the combat though. Whatever guy dies, well, I have another couple in the wings.
Unfortunately yeah, the game meta is disposable heroes. The kicker is you need surviving heroes to eventually learn all the story, visit all the dungeons and beat the game. So that's where the tension is. Heroes are only disposable up to a point. Lose too many but win enough missions that your "exploration" of each dungeon rises far enough, and eventually you'll find you're offered missions too dangerous for your guys to run. It's not clear at the start but you can play yourself into a hole by failing too many times.
Bottomline: You need some guys to survive to ripe old level of 5 or whatever the cap is. So I do get attached to my heroes, especially when they get the right set of Quirks together (Tough, Steady, Fated, all great Quirks to have.) And when they seem to be clutch hitters, when shit really counts.
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4. Trinkets. Still not feeling it. Can I have equipment that doesn't harm me in some way pls? Forcing me to make my characters take on different roles, and building them together into a functioning team, that's all well and dandy. But does it really mean that we have to do away with that tried and true cornerstone of dungeon spelunking that is finding some nice little piece of equipment?
First rule: accept that there is no straight buff trinkets in the game.
Second rule: specialize. You're inclined to not do it to begin with, but like I said, some things are obvious. Your healers are not damage dealers. If anything their attacks are useful for their secondary effects. So. Nerfing their damage to increase their survivability is smart. Your tanks? They're better positioned to take hits than anyone else. So trinkets that hurt their dodge but give them +10% or +20% HP or PROT are totally worth it. Damage dealing classes are more in the middle, especially the "light" DPS like Highway Man, Jester and Grave Robber. They need dodge, they need HP, they need PROT, they need damage. Many trinkets are harder to justify for them. But there are class specific ones out there that are worth it, and others that are just worth it. Like I found a cloak that is +15 DODGE when the torch is higher than 75, at the cost of -10% Stun Resist (taking them from 40% resist to 30%.) So I stuck it on my Grave Robber, which takes her from a 15% chance to dodge to 30% when the torch is bright. That's a good trade off considering if she dodges she doesn't even have to roll to resist stun.
You just have to evaluate how deep the penalties are vs. the buff they provide, and if that makes sense for their role.
Post by: Yolan on May 31, 2015, 03:09:12 am
Regarding trinkets, yes, I'm using them pretty much in that manner. But I still find myself selling more than half of the ones I find, and that feels a bit odd.
It's good to know that I can get myself into a hole later on by losing too many guys. I thought I was allowed to keep hitting low level maps forever so long as I had low level characters in my roster.
Post by: nenjin on May 31, 2015, 04:11:22 am
Like I said, I find the beginning of the game and fresh heroes the least forgiving part of it.
Post by: Stuebi on May 31, 2015, 05:45:17 am
It took me THREE attempts to complete the first actual mission in a new game. First try I had a crit galore that wiped my entire party, and the second time around I finished the mission with 3 partymembers at full stress and one maybe 1 square off (And since you can only upgrade the stagecoach once after the tutorial afaik, you cant raise a compelte new party).
This ties into the major complaint I had right from the beginning, the difficulty curve is all over the place. Early game, there is barely any, if at all, skill involved with surviving the game. Money is limited, buildings unlock only after a couple missions (Which is moronic, imho. Especially the guild hall is just outright necessary if you get heroes with stupid skills) and you can't really influence your success chances beyond praying to the RNG-Gods.
Mid game is the part where the game shines. You have more money, but not enough to spend it willy nilly. You have access to all buildings, and have to think about team composition, which skills to give your guys and when to upgrade someone. It's the only part of the game, in my mind, where skill comes into play. It starts around the time the first bosses show up and ends once you killed all of the apprentice-level Bosses.
Thenw e get to late game, which is just laughable. The problem is, at least, that's what I think, that some of the later upgrades scale too well. Either that or the enemies dont pick up the pace. Tanks become close to unkillable with the right trinkets and upgrades. If you take both a Vestal and a Jester along, you will neither die nor suffer from Stress, unless you provoke it via bad torch management or using the wrong items. Damage also goes trough the roof. Give a Graverobber a couple crit trinkets, up her weapon and then watch her kill most enemies in a single round. Same goes for the Leper. Once you upped his ACC a little and get those weapon upgrades going, he murderes everything in the front row in 1-2 rounds, while still being tanky as all hell.
Bosses become almost hillarious pushovers. I remember the Swine King, and how he couldnt act because he was either permastunned by an upgraded plaguedoctor, or just died within the first couple rounds because my entire team was critting him for upwards 30 every round.
What the game needs (imho), is some major adjustement in scaling and some variation in terms of challenge, especially early and late. Early on, it would be cool if the game was less hard than it is now. It sucks that there is a high probabilty that you have to restart a couple times before you even reach the third or fourth mission. Heck, I've been unlucky enough to get murdered in the Tutorial, with unlucky misses and crits. And for the love of god, give me an option to skip the Tutorial and unlock all buildings right away. There is no good reason beyond "We dont want to overwhelm newbies" for locking critical buildings like the guild hall.
Late game on the other hand, could stand a couple buffs. The Bosses need new tricks on higher levels, and the enemies should scale up a bit more as well.
Post by: nenjin on May 31, 2015, 01:46:57 pm
1. Nothing you can do the first couple of runs. I disagree in part. Yes, it is very much up to the RNG gods whether you get your face critted off. But there are some things you can do to maximize survival. Avoiding Curios you don't understand, for one. Milking fights to 10+ rounds when it's not necessary. Overspending on food and torches for the first mission can help. Several times I've tried to blaze through the tutorial and first mission only to have it blow up in my face. Taking your time does matter. Even something as simple as not exploiting the turn order (i.e. forgetting to stun the last enemy to act on a team) can make a big difference at that point.
2. I do however agree that the difficulty of DD is frontloaded, especially given how effective late game armor is. DD's problem is that it gets players so angry/stressed in the first half hour, they naturally assume the late game will be even worse. And that's pretty much the opposite of reality.
3. They have added new boss tweaks or abilities at higher difficulty levels in this patch. No idea what those are yet.
4. Permastuns are a lot harder to pull off after the Stun Resist Buff gets activated. Most boss enemies even in Apprentice start at 75% resistance. So one stun and they are base 100% chance to resist.
Post by: Jeshin on June 07, 2015, 01:41:26 am
Post by: nenjin on June 07, 2015, 05:06:02 am
Post by: Jeshin on June 07, 2015, 07:21:46 am
I should probably do a more recent run through given some of the changes they've made. I will document it and post it up in a few days!
Post by: Sindain on June 07, 2015, 08:37:36 am
Post by: Retropunch on June 07, 2015, 09:13:26 am
I abuse stress reduction abilities and while in camp I focus solely on stress reduction skill uses.
I should probably do a more recent run through given some of the changes they've made. I will document it and post it up in a few days!
Please do! I'd be really interested to see how the new stuff works out in practice but don't have the possibility of doing it myself.
Post by: Jeshin on June 07, 2015, 10:25:13 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 07, 2015, 07:19:13 pm
I don't understand how you can survive the increased crits and stress gain. Getting locked out of lower level missions keeps your guys from becoming stress immune, so.I haven't played in like a half a year, but... back when I plaeyd (which sounds about like when Jeshin played) this is what I would have said:
Its kinda like newcom, the more damage you have the more and more trivial things become. Although for a different reason. The abilities all scale basically by adding a few points in every category each time. For healing abilities, it added one to the min or max healing, which was mediocre (and in one case actually made the ability WORSE because it had a downside that scaled as well). But for damaging abilities, crit, damage, and accuracy ALL increased. Add that to trinkets, weapon improvements, camp buffs, and you have all these overlapping offense buffs. Then you take an offensive team (say, 4 hellions) and wreck every encounter in 1-2 rounds, using your ~10% crit rate to relieve stress.
Post by: nenjin on June 08, 2015, 10:09:04 am
Partly my issue is that I'm only now messing with Level 3 heroes. Unlike others I didn't stampede to the higher level game, I basically leveled my whole hero list a little bit at a time. And I think Darkest Farming is way easier past Resolve Rank 3 than before it.
Post by: nenjin on June 08, 2015, 06:51:23 pm
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Disabled torch snuffing during combat to prevent admirable but sneaky torch snuffing at combat end to receive bonus loot
I tried this in the previous build and wasn't amazed by the results. Apparently you can still get some incredibly mediocre loot rolls in the dankest darkness.
Post by: sambojin on June 10, 2015, 12:10:37 am
Looks fun. In a weird way, it almost looks like an oldxcom difficulty curve. If you haven't worked out the basic awesomesauce items/skills early on, it'll be far rougher on you, all game. It's the early set backs/missed missions/purchases and decision making that determines half the difficulty of mid/late. Ie: rocket launchers are bitching all the time, assault rifles are not. They both skill the same, sort of. But one works. It might cost a bit, but money is cheap. Similar to the "don't dick about, form parties to hit things hard early" in DD. Support players come later. Buy the things that give you more adventurers early, then you have the choices required to make a party work. Money and items aren't as pricey if you stop dying, or getting maladies all the time, due to having a suckfull party mix and not krumping things quickly. Drag it out if you want to for skills/loot/anti-stress/healing, but you do that by killing stuff so quickly that it's an option. It's not an option if you can't just wipe out everything that's scary, fast.
Don't go under a million dollars on oldxcom/ don't go under a few tanks/dpser's in DD. Hit hard, QoL stuff comes later. Buy it/research it early, and if it's the wrong thing or wrong party layout, you'll be set back all game. Dead things don't ever damage anyone, so focus on killing stuff quickly.
Anyway, next new job I'll grab a copy.
Post by: Rakonas on June 10, 2015, 01:34:55 am
Post by: Sindain on June 10, 2015, 05:53:13 am
Post by: jhxmt on June 13, 2015, 03:46:52 pm
Do I suffer, long-term, if I try and grind up newbies in the Ruins? Does the game gradually get harder overall, leaving me with no newbie-grinding grounds?
I'm thinking a decent building strategy is to rush the upgrades that cheapen stress-relief in towns (e.g. second level of bar), is that sensible or am I missing something?
Also I love the jester. That is all.
Post by: nenjin on June 13, 2015, 03:58:16 pm
Post by: jhxmt on June 14, 2015, 01:51:37 pm
Enjoying the toughness of the game immensely - I've been screwed by the RNG a few times, but never in a way that I felt was entirely grossly unfair (I'm looking at you, FTL) and always in such a way that I could see how I could have prevented it, if I'd only prepared more (and been willing to spend more money on preparations, heh).
What sort of gear/how much of it do most people take on expeditions? I think I may be going overboard on torches - but then, I try to keep above 60 at all times, which may be inefficient.
Post by: kulik on June 16, 2015, 10:50:00 am
Other than that the game seems nice, however, I enjoy failing at FTL or Invisible inc, cause the campaign lasts like 3-4 hours, here, you may invest hours and hours of gameplay and get screwed over or play yourself into a corner. Not sure if I like that, I can see myself rage quit in most campaigns and not returning to the game for months.
Post by: Kruniac on June 16, 2015, 09:25:13 pm
Got to week 20 or so and I had my squad of best heroes wiped out in two battles where the enemies got to attack in the first rounds and scored like 7 critical hits in those two battles.
Other than that the game seems nice, however, I enjoy failing at FTL or Invisible inc, cause the campaign lasts like 3-4 hours, here, you may invest hours and hours of gameplay and get screwed over or play yourself into a corner. Not sure if I like that, I can see myself rage quit in most campaigns and not returning to the game for months.
Sounds like a good game to me. FYI - you can beat all of the bosses in around 14 hours. That's literally a single day of play, unfortunately.
I'll hit this again when they finish it. It's definitely worth keeping an eye on. Until then, I'll stick with open-ended/sandbox-y games like DF or Rimworld.
Post by: Boltgun on June 18, 2015, 07:34:17 am
So far I like the constant difficulty and the stressful gameplay.! I find the game fun enough to keep going at lower levels. I was lucky to not lose more characters so far, but I play very defensively, always keeping a combo of vestal/cultist + my plague doctor to stun and remove the bleeding.
The only thing is, in a game like this, I need to name my adventurers so who want to be named? I'll come back from time to time to tell you who died and who turned the card.
Post by: Zangi on June 18, 2015, 08:55:30 am
Post by: kulik on June 18, 2015, 09:09:48 am
Post by: Zangi on June 18, 2015, 10:58:03 am
I tried different battle strategies, but ended up convinced that sheer damage dealing abilities overweight everything else. (except shuffling enemy melee fighters back). Some buffs seems tempting to use, but again, nothing seems to beat killing an enemy fast and not be attacked by it in next round. Any thoughts on this?That is the winning strategy, yes. If the enemy doesn't act, you take less damage. If the enemy is dead, you don't have to stun them.
Post by: Boltgun on June 18, 2015, 11:07:04 am
I tried different battle strategies, but ended up convinced that sheer damage dealing abilities overweight everything else. (except shuffling enemy melee fighters back). Some buffs seems tempting to use, but again, nothing seems to beat killing an enemy fast and not be attacked by it in next round. Any thoughts on this?
I figured that cultist marking + plague doctor backrow stunning + bounty hunter double damaging axechop is a good way to start a fight.
I have not seen good tanking so far so damage seems the way to go.
And a lot of buffing suck, raise accuracy or evades is moot if the rng pee on you.
Post by: Zangi on June 18, 2015, 11:20:09 am
And a lot of buffing suck, raise accuracy or evades is moot if the rng pee on you.+100% accuracy has its uses.
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2015, 11:29:53 am
Post by: Boltgun on June 18, 2015, 02:39:29 pm
Man At Arms has THE tank buff. Increases PROT, causes him to get Marked Target so attacks go to him, and activates the Riposte Buff so he'll counter attack anyone that attacks him.
Ok I'll try again once I have one who can survive a milk run.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 15, 2015, 10:09:51 am
Post by: nenjin on July 15, 2015, 12:53:30 pm
(http://www.darkestdungeon.com/wp-content/uploads/HoundMaster2.jpg)
What I know is, the Sanitarium will let you "lock in" traits, both good and bad.
No idea "corpses in combat" means. It could be just a graphical thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has some mechanical consequences (like corpses taking up space in the line.)
Post by: Zangi on July 15, 2015, 01:22:29 pm
Anyways, still essentially waiting till 1.0 to give it another go.
Post by: rumpel on July 15, 2015, 05:11:38 pm
Post by: BishopX on July 15, 2015, 09:07:10 pm
Short Ruins dive on a medium map.
Vestal
Plague Doctor
Crusader
Helion
All level three with upgraded skills, good trinkets, level four weapons and level two armor.
Holy crap the difficulty changed. First fight started with a bone noble critting the vestal for 11 out for 29 HP, followed by three strike aimed at her.
By the second fight my 2nd rank fighters were both constantly on deaths door, despite using all food and healing I could muster. Despite all that I ended up losing the Plague doctor to a bunch of brigands (bleed + blanket fire is nasty). The Helion proved to be the mvp of the run, since in the lead position she could hit every rank of enemy. I really struggled to clear the corpses with my crusader, as it typically took 2+ blows to remove a corpse.
So a few things changed in my mind:
1)pull skills are now much more important. Pulling the squishy ones forward over a pile or corpses is now crucial unless you can releiably hit all four ranks.
2)Need moar armor upgrades
3)I think bounty hunters, highway men, men at arms, Helions, plague doctors and grave robbers ended up getting a buff in this version, since being able to hits wider swaths of enemies and move them around become much more important. Crusaders, Lepers and Jesters are less potent than before due to their (relative) lack of target selection. In my mind the jury is still out or the arbalest.
Post by: nenjin on July 16, 2015, 12:28:51 am
Anyways, the patch notes are a little loquacious (not that I can really criticize that) but it really does dig down into their thinking a bit more than your average EA patch notes.
Not sure how I feel about corpses. I appreciate they needed something to preserve the rank-based gameplay, but somehow abilities clearing the battlefield of corpses, or attacking them, seems a little contrived. Fights could be plenty problematic in the opening 1 or 2 rounds, and needing good DPS across all 4 ranks seems like it will limit your options rather than increase or enhance them.
That said, reading over the patch notes, aside from the nerfs to crit chance and stress healing to balance late game difficulty, it sounds like damn near everyone got a buff of some sort (buffs/debuffs all increased 1 round in duration, many buffs got an additional effect or were changed to an attack that gives a buff too, bleed/blight crits now, all heals buffed....)
I imagine I'll get fucked up in my first encounter when I get around to playing.
Post by: Boltgun on July 16, 2015, 02:54:00 am
Using backrow attacks were often less successful unless you build for that (ie. arbalest + hellion). And pulls were so prone to missing that I let my cultist heal instead.
Also it's good that they are addressing debuffs using a double check. Tthose things were unreliable in addition to not really changing the outcome. I'm sure the game will be well balanced for release.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2015, 03:03:39 am
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dots are more valuable and can critI now want to build a full DOT party and just melt everything.
Haha, just kidding, I always want to do that. This just makes it sound slightly more viable.
Post by: Elfeater on July 16, 2015, 12:29:17 pm
Post by: Greenbane on July 16, 2015, 01:53:52 pm
I haven't really investigated the matter, but according to some people, the game itself has a number of arbitrary gamey mechanics which don't make much sense from a logical standpoint, so I suppose this is one to add to the list.
Another example of an illogical mechanic, off the top of my head, is that adventurers are often desperately afraid of going back into the dungeons, for fear of their sanity, while at the same time they'll refuse to embark on easy missions because those -aren't- a threat to their sanity. I suppose that's more of a flavour issue than anything else.
Post by: BishopX on July 16, 2015, 07:06:48 pm
Post by: lordcooper on July 17, 2015, 08:02:53 am
I haven't really investigated the matter, but according to some people, the game itself has a number of arbitrary gamey mechanics which don't make much sense from a logical standpoint, so I suppose this is one to add to the list.
Add in the game being turnbased, being limited to four party members and everyone working for free. Games are allowed to be gamey, because they're games.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2015, 08:05:38 am
Strictly speaking, they are paid rather handsomely for their... well, their recovery, at least, if not their services directly. Though I guess 75g rations and 1000g tavern visits could be argued as another gamey thing.I haven't really investigated the matter, but according to some people, the game itself has a number of arbitrary gamey mechanics which don't make much sense from a logical standpoint, so I suppose this is one to add to the list.
Add in the game being turnbased, being limited to four party members and everyone working for free. Games are allowed to be gamey, because they're games.
Post by: lordcooper on July 17, 2015, 08:06:58 am
Strictly speaking, they are paid rather handsomely for their... well, their recovery, at least, if not their services directly. Though I guess 75g rations and 1000g tavern visits could be argued as another gamey thing.I haven't really investigated the matter, but according to some people, the game itself has a number of arbitrary gamey mechanics which don't make much sense from a logical standpoint, so I suppose this is one to add to the list.
Add in the game being turnbased, being limited to four party members and everyone working for free. Games are allowed to be gamey, because they're games.
They're basically working for brothel and board :)
Post by: Zangi on July 17, 2015, 09:13:18 am
You don't even have to bother destressing them or even provide rations in the dungeons.Strictly speaking, they are paid rather handsomely for their... well, their recovery, at least, if not their services directly. Though I guess 75g rations and 1000g tavern visits could be argued as another gamey thing.I haven't really investigated the matter, but according to some people, the game itself has a number of arbitrary gamey mechanics which don't make much sense from a logical standpoint, so I suppose this is one to add to the list.
Add in the game being turnbased, being limited to four party members and everyone working for free. Games are allowed to be gamey, because they're games.
They're basically working for brothel and board :)
Post by: blackmagechill on July 17, 2015, 05:59:15 pm
Post by: Greenbane on July 18, 2015, 01:07:16 am
Games are allowed to be gamey, because they're games.
Held onto a single word from my statement. The problem is the occasional arbitrary lack of even internal logic, not the fact this or that mechanic is gamey.
Post by: nenjin on July 18, 2015, 04:04:40 pm
The corpses don't interfere too much, except when your party layout lacks consistent back rank attacks. Blight is really, really good now, the damage is very satisfying, and destroying corpses instantly is a bonus. But I shudder to think how potent it will be in the AIs hands. It seems like having a Blight solution in every party, or stocking up on anti-venom, is going to be a thing. They act like enemies in most things, which is good and bad. You can miss them, they can resist, I think they might even dodge. But you can still crit them for stress relief too. (It's funny to watch a hero shouting "You think I'm done with you yet!" at a quivering pile of meat.) You can also target them for your self-heal/self-buff/torch attacks too.
Diseases seem more common now, and are definitely nastier. They carry multiple effects and the hits are pretty steep (got one that was -75% Blight/Disease resist, -HP, -Speed. Yeowch.)
Stress relief for crit heals is also much appreciated.
Maybe it's just me, but torches seem to burn a little faster too.
All in all, the game seems harder but that's just my initial impression of the first few runs.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 18, 2015, 05:10:01 pm
In fact, I find that it is most prudent to, at least at the start, send your level-up heroes with throwaway squads. If the redshirts start to die, time to retreat and call it a day.
Problem will come when my favorites start to level up and I have to send them into nasty runs. I'm guessing I'll have to play far more conservative then and offset the difference with noob suicide runs.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 18, 2015, 05:23:33 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 18, 2015, 05:51:42 pm
Post by: Sirus on July 19, 2015, 12:53:17 am
The game is definitedly nastier. I'm having *real* money problems. To the point that I'm resorting to what I once thought was "twinkish": increase the wagon straight off to 4 heroes so that if worse comes to worst, I can push myself back into the green through consecutive suicide runs.And if the level-up heroes get targeted and wiped out first?
In fact, I find that it is most prudent to, at least at the start, send your level-up heroes with throwaway squads. If the redshirts start to die, time to retreat and call it a day.
Problem will come when my favorites start to level up and I have to send them into nasty runs. I'm guessing I'll have to play far more conservative then and offset the difference with noob suicide runs.
That happened to me the other night. My best Occultist was single-mindedly targeted by attack after attack until he got killed, while everyone else who was a level lower was basically ignored. No, he wasn't marked. I wasn't even half-way through the run.
(also ptw)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2015, 11:25:17 am
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 11:53:32 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2015, 11:57:53 am
IMO it takes some singular bad luck to experience that often. Normally your two heroes are more than enough to wipe the floor with the tutorial miniboss.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 12:01:25 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 19, 2015, 03:31:18 pm
One thing I've noticed this build, there seems to be the chance for more obstructions than there used to be. In all my playtime prior, I'd only ever seen two, maybe three tops once, in a single level. This build, I've seen 5. 5 goddamn obstructions. I started carrying two shovels all the time thinking that'd be enough, but the game has regularly proved me wrong. Nothing sucks ass more than bailing on a mission one or two rooms away from the finish because you can't take the guaranteed stress/torch hit of yet another wall of debris.
The AI also seems particularly vicious toward level zero characters. I took a level 0 jester backed up by 1s and 2s into a short apprentice Warrens run. The very first fight, of the 12 or so attacks that made up the round, 10 went right at him. He didn't have a chance with just a Vestal for healing.
Post by: Retropunch on July 19, 2015, 05:22:51 pm
I think the other thing is that us here at Bay12 are mostly hardcore gamers, coming from games like DF, whereas some people will be coming to it from tablet games and the like which means that the learning curve would be really, really steep - and they'd probably lose a lot of interest if they just died in the tutorial.
Post by: nenjin on July 20, 2015, 10:53:08 pm
Spoiler: Rant (click to show/hide)
*sigh* Goddamn this game. I get into it for a day or two, think I've finally broken through to some sort of playable balance and then it goes to shit when I try to keep playing.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 21, 2015, 06:09:03 am
Mind you, I don't think the game is impossibly hard right now. I just think the dynamics of the game, the general flow could use some improvement.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2015, 06:24:47 am
Houndmaster seems really neat, though he mostly just bleeds everyone out all at once with puppies. Undead make him sad, damage boosts make him happy.
Post by: Boltgun on July 21, 2015, 07:07:03 am
Post by: BishopX on July 21, 2015, 08:03:51 am
I do not see what is so easy about the mid game.Spoiler: Rant (click to show/hide)
*sigh* Goddamn this game. I get into it for a day or two, think I've finally broken through to some sort of playable balance and then it goes to shit when I try to keep playing.
So 1) the new patch created this monstrosity, I think they'll tune it down in a little bit
2) Sounds like an issue with preperation... I bring 12 food on a short mission. 20 or 24 on a medium mission. If all else fails you can always eat it.
3) It's possible to build really bad parties. I don't know enough about what you were using to say,
4)Medium runs are harder than short runs. I'm leary about doing easy medium length runs without a level 1-2 party with upgrades. I'd be worried about doing a medium medium run with just level 3's.
Post by: nenjin on July 21, 2015, 09:13:08 am
It's feels a lot easier at low level however, I could complete dark runs without issues with a balanced group. Unless that was luck, it's hard to tell.
I think I can agree with this. I had maybe one bad run in all the Apprentice missions I did, leaving me feeling like "Yeah, Veteran missions, let's do this!"
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3) It's possible to build really bad parties. I don't know enough about what you were using to say,
If Crusader/Helion/Vestal/Plague Doctor is a bad party, then there are no good parties that aren't 100% cheese.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 21, 2015, 10:11:48 am
Post by: nenjin on July 21, 2015, 10:28:41 am
I dunno, I think part of it too is I didn't make the switch from caring more about damage than stress in Veteran. I tend to go for the stress dealers first because they're squishier and fewer attacks incoming per turn seems better. But after watching the Swinetaur wreck my whole party, maybe you need to focus more on reducing incoming damage.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 21, 2015, 11:12:55 am
Stress is bad, though. You can technically recover from it through crits, but if it builds up it can do you in pretty fast.
Plus, once one character is afflicted, you might as well quit before the rest go the same way.
Unless they're a suicide squad I guess.
Post by: nenjin on July 21, 2015, 11:33:43 am
Fast forward to rank 3, and they've got Stress resistance now (and the "stress check" value seems to go up as you do higher level missions.) Then you add stress healing on top of that, so they can heal for more (or less) of the standard amount. So comparatively, a rank 3 hero in a rank 3 dungeon is more likely to resist stress or receive less stress than a rank 0 hero in a rank 0 dungeon. So when push comes to shove, you can (should? might?) decide to deal with damage dealers before stress archers.
Until someone is about to break that is. I pretty much refuse to consider a run with an Affliction a success.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2015, 10:43:30 pm
I'm wondering what people's strategies are for extracting quality from the meatgrinder. Right now I'm discarding basically everyone who doesn't come out fine, and leaving the rest to sit there while I decide what to do with them.
Post by: Sirus on September 26, 2015, 10:53:40 pm
Haven't had much use for the Arbalist though. The rear ranks are usually where I stick my healer(s).
Post by: IronyOwl on September 26, 2015, 11:26:51 pm
I don't really have a "strategy" for getting quality out of the meatgrinder, unfortunately. I tend to just kind of take whoever I get and then stick with them, even if mechanically there are better options.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2015, 04:01:24 am
Still trying to figure out how to progress with my decent level 1s though without getting them killed. Wondering how strong a guy should be before I start spending real money on him with skills and treatments and shit.
Man-at-arms has the advantage of actual tank abilities. I don't see leper as much of a tank really, more like a tanky damage dealer. Man-at-arms can mark himself, has riposte, and can guard another character. He can actually force the enemy to attack him and do damage back.
Post by: debvon on September 27, 2015, 04:31:53 am
I still embark with a single torch in case of emergencies when I don't want to lose someone important. People tend to forget that you can retreat from a botched run. Sure it sets you back a -little-, but chances are you'll learn from your mistakes and net more gain on the next one.
So yeah unless 70% of your barracks is at breaking point just do dark runs forever. As a bonus the game is a lot more interesting that way.
edit: also I don't know what you guys are talking about, I've found the arbalest to be amazing in the fourth row in my runs. She can pick off any problem enemy in one to two turns usually. Her aoe can be killer when paired with the highwayman's aoe. To top it off she's really durable, anything that decides to attack her is essentially wasting a turn while she (and my other damage dealers) dish out the critical hits. But I've had the most success by far with Man-at-arms, he seems a little overpowered?
Post by: nenjin on September 27, 2015, 05:09:12 am
Post by: Sindain on September 27, 2015, 09:33:02 am
Though they got buffed a bit since their release so they're still pretty good early game.
Post by: Sirus on September 27, 2015, 10:25:43 am
@ Cthulhu: I've noticed that the Man-at-arms tends to take more damage than the Crusader while having less HP than him or the Leper, which is why I said he isn't as tanky. His abilities can make him tanky, but he lacks the base damage protection or raw HP of the others. I tend to use the Man-at-arms as a combination party-buffer/second-rank attacker.
(I haven't played for a while, so I may be slightly mis-remembering some stats)
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2015, 02:26:36 pm
I wish they'd just remove the cave-ins entirely or change their mechanics. They do nothing to make the game more interesting.
Post by: nenjin on September 27, 2015, 02:40:40 pm
So I noticed they made the shovel persistent. Doesn't that make it even less of a meaningful decision? It becomes a tax. If you pay 250 gold before a mission, there's a chance of go fuck yourself. If youd on't, there's a chance of double go fuck yourself.
I wish they'd just remove the cave-ins entirely or change their mechanics. They do nothing to make the game more interesting.
They should have gone halfway, and made the Shovel persistent but with a chance to break on use. That would make more sense.
Something about curios has always rubbed me the wrong way. Tediously learning all of them is a recipe for pain. But if you use a cheat sheet to know what they do, and grok what kind you see in what dungeon....then they just become extra loot or the occasional life saving effect like stress reduction or torch or light or w/e. They basically lose their teeth as a gameplay mechanic because they become a known quantity very fast, such that they never hurt you. (And why would you take the risk on half the curios that can hurt you? I don't even check book shelves and the like anymore. The stress and torch hit aren't worth it, the positive quirks aren't worth it outside of the early game, and the maps aren't useful beyond the 2nd or 3rd one. So I just ignore them.)
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2015, 02:56:30 pm
Post by: Sindain on September 27, 2015, 03:03:57 pm
Speaking of which, orbs. Without spoiling them for me (I almost won once, 7 hp left) is there anything to be gained from activating one, or are they just yet another fuck you mechanic?
they always drop an ancestral trinket.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2015, 04:06:51 pm
Jesters seem a lot better than I remember. Most of their abilities I don't like, too much moving around, but slice off and harvest are awesome.
EDIT: So of course my jester died. Still, I think I'mg etting the hang of it. Upgrades are cheap enough when you factor in dark runs with throwaways that there's no reason not to kit out your level 1s if they come out of their first mission decent.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 28, 2015, 02:02:08 am
I once had a team of nothing but grave robbers. It was a constant cycle of charging forward, with each charge pushing the others back so that they could charge, pushing the one who had just charged back so they could charge, repeated forever.
Not sure if that even makes sense anymore, haven't played in almost a year.
Post by: debvon on September 28, 2015, 06:47:34 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 28, 2015, 01:44:33 pm
Not a big fan of the houndmaster honestly. He feels like a jack of several trades, master of none. Some decent single-target damage but only with a mark, very weak aoe bleed, sort of tank abilities, kind of underwhelming overall. He can fit decently in almost any slot but I've never said, "damn a houndmaster would be perfect for this team." I'd prefer a jester/vestal/arbalest to a houndmaster. Jester feels like a plague doctor but with bleeds, his ability to stack bleed damage is crazy.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 28, 2015, 01:54:26 pm
He works well as either prime support (Marking and debuffing for say bounty hunter, AoE bleeding), or dodge tanking up front
Post by: nenjin on September 28, 2015, 02:24:22 pm
Post by: Sindain on September 28, 2015, 03:33:16 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 28, 2015, 03:51:10 pm
Okay, so I think I'm going to have to stop trying medium missions in the ruins. Bone commanders are just completely flattening every team that comes across them.Your teams sound pretty boned.
Post by: Bohandas on September 28, 2015, 04:09:43 pm
sounds cool
Post by: Cthulhu on September 28, 2015, 10:25:01 pm
Occultist might also make a decent teammate for that but I like the vestal's stuns.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 29, 2015, 07:35:39 am
Post by: Boltgun on September 29, 2015, 08:42:41 am
occultist is pretty sucky as of late, because as far as it's healing skill is concerned, higher skill levels further increase the chance of bleed. And outside it's healing skill the occultist's usefulness is pretty situational.
I found stacking debuffs helpful if the combat drags for too long.
Post by: TempAcc on September 29, 2015, 09:26:31 am
Post by: nenjin on September 29, 2015, 10:25:56 am
Post by: Sindain on September 29, 2015, 10:30:27 am
*Edit*
Speaking of the Occultist, the cove got released today! It seems to be the first of eldritch-heavy areas in the game. Now the occultist might actually have something to put his damage bonuses to use on.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 29, 2015, 03:19:53 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 29, 2015, 04:42:16 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 29, 2015, 05:38:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some much needed sanity checks on certain mechanics (ripostes, crit stress heals on corpses, etc...) Better trinkets. Left over adventure gear buy back. Looking forward to trying this at some point. Just not right now.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2015, 11:59:34 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 01, 2015, 11:02:24 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 02, 2015, 05:06:01 pm
Turns out the three-graverobber setup is awesome. Aside from being able to spam stuns and high damage attacks, shadow fade also massively increases dodge. They can pretty much tank after one or two shadow fades.
Having played Cove some more, I think it's way overtuned right now. Everything does ridiculous damage, expect 9-12 damage on non-crits in level 1 dungeons pretty much every shot. Heals are also huge.
Also protip: If you get surprised and it puts your guys in bullshit positions, just retreat and try again. You will never recover your positioning without losing most of your health and stress in the process, especially if your guys are immobile. A leper in the back may as well not even be on your team, he's worthless and the fight'll be over by the time he gets back.
Post by: pisskop on October 03, 2015, 06:33:38 am
Liking the Man at arms thus far. Fits right in to my front line with his shield bash stun attack. Couple it with the holy lance and Im cooking with fire. I like the diversification of the game, with its new specific status/resistences, but my old prefered team is less capable of adapting. Now more than ever certain builds work in certain situations.
So Im seeing decent results with a crusader, man at arms, bounty hunter, and other support. I put down a boos with the above and the arbiraster chick. Im not sure how much I like her but she fits into the general theme of bounty hunter, so kudos.
Def liking a stun team, with a plague doctor and the above three. The crusader has to run a bit of overtme healing and destressing, but they work right up till lvl3. Dont know theyll fare against intermediate level critters, though.
But, oddly enough, havent even seen a jester, leper, or gravedgger yet. And only like 2 bounty hunters.
Post by: Sindain on October 03, 2015, 09:29:05 am
*Snip*
Yeah cove definitely seems to be a fair bit tougher than the other dungeons atm, and I don't mind that. I think some variety in the difficulty of the dungeons is a good thing.
I think the mages are fairly balanced. Their heals and buffs are strong but they're fragile and their strength seems to be an appropriate punishment for letting them live. The main reason the cove feels tougher to me are those basic swordy enemies. Pelgiate Groupers I think? Most other things in the cove can be countered using appropriate tactics, but those guys are tough, fast, can fight from any position, can attack any position, hit like trucks, and cause 3 bloody points of bleed per hit.
On a related note, I've now fought both cove bosses.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cthulhu on October 03, 2015, 03:00:07 pm
The Siren was easy, she only managed to do her thing once, a turn before we killed her.
Cove actually reminds me of the game when it first came out. Unforgiving to an excessive degree, high risk low reward. Most of the doodads I don't bother touching, not worth getting fifty bleed for five rounds.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 03, 2015, 03:23:38 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 03, 2015, 08:16:26 pm
Surprise is really harsh. I'd almost prefer if it did the same as it does to the enemy, just making it so all your guys act last. Maybe I just need to add more variety to my guys' skills, but I prefer specialization. When we don't get surprised we usually clean up.
Edit: Here we go again. Surprise in like 9/10 fights, always the worst setups possible. I think I'm gonna start carrying anti-surprise trinkets on dark runs, it's never been this bad before
Post by: pisskop on October 03, 2015, 09:26:16 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 04, 2015, 09:45:43 am
EDIT: Now I remember why I stopped playing.
Wasn't full brightness, but it was pretty bright.
Got surprised three rooms in a row, more enemy attacks were crits than not. So huge stress and damage.
As it was the first mission, just abandoned that game.
Post by: Stuebi on October 04, 2015, 11:17:47 am
As for the rest, with the possible exception of the Cove, I still advance at basically the same pace. I usually restart my Campaign until I get a decent start, and then go from there. The one major difference I noticed, money seems to be quite a bit more sparse than before. Altough I have a bad habit of overspending at the Guild Hall or for Stress relief. It's eas to forget that each ability and each activity costs a whopping 1k starting out. Luckily you can allways sell some trinkets.
Sadly, I didnt get a houndmaster yet, I was looking forward to checking him out. My favorites are still the Bounty Hunter and the Highwayman. They are very flexible in what to hit, and deal decent damage. I also got a chance to test the Man at Arms. But I'm really unsure on what setup to run with him. His Riposte seems nice and useful, but I'm not sure how to use the rest.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2015, 01:22:34 pm
Houndmaster is kind of weird, I can't decide if I like him or not. I don't think he really does enough damage to be a back-line damage dealer but he needs too much dodge to do well asa tank early on. I usually play him in front row anyway in a team that needs marks, like bounty hunter/arbalest. Hound's Harry, Mark, Guard dog, and blackjack. His trinkets are really good.
Post by: pisskop on October 04, 2015, 01:57:36 pm
I like to put him in back and use him like a jester. Stress heal, mark, and occasionally for bleeding.
and screw the cove.
Post by: Sindain on October 04, 2015, 02:16:19 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2015, 05:04:12 pm
I haven't actually tried the front-line houndmaster with lick wounds yet, I'll give that one a shot instead of harry, which doesn't get much use. My worry there is that aside from the mark, without bleed he's just a shitty man-at-arms.
Post by: Sindain on October 04, 2015, 05:42:29 pm
Also don't forgot doggies treats, like doubles his damages and a bunch of his other stats. Makes him hit like a truck when combined with marks.
Post by: pisskop on October 04, 2015, 08:51:00 pm
Ive had some success making teams out of those characters. No real healer but 3 or 4 characters with healing abilities and decent physique.
I think a team of 4 houndmasters would be an interesting team, tbf. And workable. Really see some bleed-action there.
Post by: Yoink on October 04, 2015, 10:16:54 pm
Post by: pisskop on October 05, 2015, 04:16:19 am
Post by: Stuebi on October 05, 2015, 02:21:09 pm
Why is the punishment for burning books 95 stress?
To be honest, I have no idea. I remember the first time I fell for it too. I assumed it would give you extra light, like the alchemists table does. Wam, instant Full Stress. Boy was I mad.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 05, 2015, 02:41:04 pm
His bleed just isn't good enough, I don't think. Not enough to care about and his damages are low. Jester can easily stack up huge bleed, he's like a bleed plague doctor.Early bleed is sucky... but two levels in it begins to increase... and then it stacks much better.
I haven't actually tried the front-line houndmaster with lick wounds yet, I'll give that one a shot instead of harry, which doesn't get much use. My worry there is that aside from the mark, without bleed he's just a shitty man-at-arms.
Problem is, there are waaay too many bleed resistant critters. Blight is a safer bet, IMO. Outside the pigstry, that is.
Post by: pisskop on October 06, 2015, 03:41:42 pm
Just monsters, most likely. And probs not even much in the way of graphics, considering my meager ability to add that.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 06, 2015, 04:56:48 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2015, 06:27:34 pm
There's a few correlations but they're mostly based on the monster itself, not the type. Pelagic monsters are resistant to bleed but that's not a tag and not all eldritch monsters are resistant to bleed.
Post by: pisskop on October 06, 2015, 06:31:34 pm
In other news, Ive taken to trying to make the game more meaningful to me. By developing backstories and trying to basically describe it in a way I could LP it onforum. Ive had some success, and the game is cooperating thus far by not handing out a lot of good loot for the risk Im taking. Full dark and I cant swing more than 10k?
So my broken pockets are now going into a 2day scouting mission with 1 torch, 4 food, and 2 shovels. Into the Warren.
Post by: nenjin on October 06, 2015, 07:59:03 pm
There's a few correlations but they're mostly based on the monster itself, not the type. Pelagic monsters are resistant to bleed but that's not a tag and not all eldritch monsters are resistant to bleed.
And Skeletons are immune to bleed, but that doesn't mean all Unholy are.
Post by: pisskop on October 06, 2015, 09:02:13 pm
--Critter List 1--
-formless melee (as a seperate 1-tile entity)
-formless guard (as a seperate 1-tile entity)
-formless weak (as a seperate 1-tile entity)
-formless ranged (as a seperate 1-tile entity)
-cultist brawler
-cultist witch
-skeleton rabble
-shard launcher (fungal bloom but damage/<bleed/stun>)
-Floaty dude (jellyfish)
-pixel (small pew)
-Summoner (wilbur that buffs/summons)
--Critter List 2--
-carrion eater
-maggot
-spider 1
-spider 2
-shambler babies
-skeleton rabble
-imp (merdude)
-zombie (Crone)
-shedem (swinataur w/poison))
-Slime (blight ectplasm with capture (small and Large))
-engulfer (big carrion eater with dibilitating attacks)
-skeleton mage (courtier w/buffing)
And bosses? idk. Maybe a team of monsters that use adventurer attacks? Literally doppleganger teams.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on October 06, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
There's a few correlations but they're mostly based on the monster itself, not the type. Pelagic monsters are resistant to bleed but that's not a tag and not all eldritch monsters are resistant to bleed.
And Skeletons are immune to bleed, but that doesn't mean all Unholy are.
Actually you can bleed skeletons.. Just really, really resistant.
Post by: nenjin on October 06, 2015, 09:29:55 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2015, 09:47:10 pm
I'm not sure exactly how it works but I'm guessing the chance listed in the ability is a modifier to the monster's chance. So a monster with 60% bleed resistance would have 54% resistance against an attack with 110% base bleed chance. With a high enough modifier you could potentially reduce it below 100%
Post by: Sindain on October 06, 2015, 09:54:18 pm
It used to be fairly easy to bleed skeletons, as they use to have "only" about 100 bleed resistance. So with one or two trinkets you could do so pretty reliably.
Post by: pisskop on October 07, 2015, 02:21:10 pm
Sprites are being used, but I can tell what they are:
And I succeeded in seperating Flesh into its seperate parts that are appropriatly renamed by me.
pedit: I got the sprites working but not the names, combat names, or sounds.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2015, 06:09:15 pm
Post by: pisskop on October 07, 2015, 07:17:32 pm
pedit: it was localization files. In there I can add names for both creatures and attack skills.
ppedit and I removed the pic because spoilers. I honestly wasnt actually impressed with the fight. by the time I took him on he was easy enough to pound down.
Post by: nenjin on October 08, 2015, 12:01:23 pm
Post by: pisskop on October 08, 2015, 12:09:29 pm
The body horror in this game is real. And probably one of the more fridge horrorish bits here. Is it all cthulu inspired bits that play on body horror?
Theres an attack in the game thats refered to in its code as 'anus snake', and that scares me.
pedit: FTR, the effects for each attack are appropriately located in the file called 'effects' :roll:
Post by: TempAcc on October 08, 2015, 12:11:33 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 08, 2015, 01:29:34 pm
heh, opps. Ill take it out, since I solved that issue anywho.
The body horror in this game is real. And probably one of the more fridge horrorish bits here. Is it all cthulu inspired bits that play on body horror?
Not all. While the violation of the body was definitely a theme for Lovecraft works, it's only in the modern era where we really started visualizing this stuff that it truly became about body horror.
Post by: TempAcc on October 08, 2015, 01:54:50 pm
Altough the game sure does make some use of fridge horror.
One instance I rather like is how, when you're finishing a warrens run, the narrator will sometimes say something like "these experiments should never have been done". Its never explained just what kind of experiments he's talking about, when they took place and what was the goal, but considering you're fighting hordes of manpigs, its not hard to imagine.
Post by: pisskop on October 08, 2015, 02:04:09 pm
Ancestor didn't build the warrens. He was digging in the Ruins (which are are refered to in-gamecode as the crypt, leaving me to suspect that the location above DD is actually his manor), and found the warrens under or adjacent to them at some point. Given the presence of books and other alchemical/storage props in the ruins I suspect it was a workroom of some kind that doubled as storage facility and burial for the lesser members of the staff.
Anywho, the warrens existed well before settlers even arrived on-location. I dont know what they were populated with, but the Ancestor began using it as a holding pen for various mutations and experiments. The wiki says that the pig-men were crafted by the ancestor, and they either maintained their intellect or were possessed by a force with sentience. Keep in mind that we don't know how long the Ancestor has been dead or how long he lived. Or how long he waited for us. It could be he has been dead for thousands of ingame years. During this time the pigmen must have mutated/diversified.
Ancestor says the erperiments should have never been done because, like all his work, he regrets them in death (or whatever his ultimate fate), but unlike the others, he was never an expert in flesh-crafting/blood sacrificing. Or at least he was less interested and proficient and spent less time on them than other things.
The warrens are essentially Ancestors middin. He ended up throwing his failures in there. They just happened to survive because magic.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 08, 2015, 02:31:15 pm
There is a question as to where all these people who keep dying are coming from. You could say the zombies, plant horrors, and slime-surrounding-skeletons are all using long dead corpses as a "base". But that doesn't explain who the bandits rob to support themselves, or where the pigmen are stealing food/abducting people from. It seems unlikely that one village could support all that without being destroyed, but the setting seems like such a desolate backwater that it raises questions... maybe the land the game is set in is closer to civilization than it might appear?
Post by: pisskop on October 08, 2015, 02:44:59 pm
I'd love to see an actual effect had on the
Let me find out that this is happening on a huge island, or that without the corrupting influence of the DD nearby the ability of the fungus/pigsty/merdudes to spread is limited to more mundane means that are surpressed by goernmental efforts.
Post by: debvon on October 08, 2015, 04:40:27 pm
The warrens imply a whole lot of humans were and are eaten there. Easily the most revolting of the settings.
There is a question as to where all these people who keep dying are coming from. You could say the zombies, plant horrors, and slime-surrounding-skeletons are all using long dead corpses as a "base". But that doesn't explain who the bandits rob to support themselves, or where the pigmen are stealing food/abducting people from. It seems unlikely that one village could support all that without being destroyed, but the setting seems like such a desolate backwater that it raises questions... maybe the land the game is set in is closer to civilization than it might appear?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In any case it's fun to speculate about that world, maybe it'd even make a good book. Hell I'd buy it. I hope they expand on it more when they get around to releasing the rest of the game. They've done a good job of it so far.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 08, 2015, 04:48:02 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 08, 2015, 04:50:11 pm
Post by: pisskop on October 08, 2015, 07:46:11 pm
I still need a boss. Ill see what I can think of, but Im currently drawing a blank.
Spoiler: room/hall lists (click to show/hide)
I think maybe 1 more decent melee monster would complete the list. And the boss, oc.
pedit: heroes, right.
I need a party of 4 level 1 heroes to mimic.
my favorite heroes, taken alone:
>bounty hunter
>occultist
>crusader
>plague doctor
-valid parties themes for the ai:
>mark/damage with a second focus on defense
>bleed/blight with a second focus on stunning
>position swapping with a front/back row power-move
>nerf/attrittion build
occultist is too nope. vestel? highwayman? man-at-arms? I plan to corrupt any powers that seem to out-there for the ai or the theme of evil. any ideas for a good party the ai wont suck as? And also a good boss for a bug themed dungeon.
Spoiler: my ideas (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Teams (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cthulhu on October 08, 2015, 10:18:00 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 08, 2015, 10:55:27 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 08, 2015, 10:57:51 pm
But my fear is it will just be another one of those games that is so tough that it stresses me out and I have to feel "prepared" before playing it again leading me to never actually playing it.
Post by: pisskop on October 08, 2015, 11:06:14 pm
its got a learning curve and a creul rng, but sticking with it will let you prevail.
much as I hate losing I love feeling like I only send out 4 dudes cuz everyone is dead, insane, or busy.
that stress of a limited pool or heroes and you have no sane healers and no base facilities is just awesome. as a person who legit finds pleasure in suffering and despair it can get there.
Also fun still is that transition from a level 2 dungeon to a level 3 one. The Ruins has 6 leveled lists of monster parties, but going from skeleton defenders to skelton captains and ghouls, man.
and swinetaurs. The warrens is def my favorite place. And the characters/teams I prefer do best there
Post by: Boltgun on October 09, 2015, 03:08:32 am
I keep considering getting this game
But my fear is it will just be another one of those games that is so tough that it stresses me out and I have to feel "prepared" before playing it again leading me to never actually playing it.
Yes, this is a stressful game, not frightening, but you will play with your guts. It is turn based so you can take time to consider actions but you will need to handle crisis situations and all your options will cost you. Sometimes you are obviously losing and have to either accept failure of roll the dice and pray to the eldrich gods that your character will make it to next turn.
On the other hand, there is no failure state, no game over screen, and you are never stuck.
Post by: pisskop on October 09, 2015, 02:58:09 pm
-The shard launchers are straight up brutal with their bleed debuffs/bleed attacks. A team of 4 of them, left alive too long, put my vestel at 8 bleeding points for 5 rounds.
-The tentacle dogs are less dangerous and more annoying, but have a pretty high crit rate.
-I tested my beast master, which is just a hollowed out houndmaster converted to the enemy's stable attack setting. he was . . . a support role character, but had higher stats than most critters around him. Houndman was never meant to specialize, after all.
Spoiler: Proof of Concept (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Too much loot? (click to show/hide)
how do sound? I have all the animations I care for, but the enemy makes no sound when hitting/hit.
Pedit: the debug says Im missing events, but damned if I know how to fix that. The sounds not really accessible to me. How do?
In other news, I knew crusaders were OP, but as an enemy they scare the bullocks out of me. A level 1 crusader is doing 9-18 smite damage rounded up to unholy. 4 other them obliterated my troops with holy lance, which Ive nerfed with a debuff. The game also tries to crash when I use some combination of the enemy targeting multiple friendlies, darkness, and bolster.
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 06:44:56 pm
I keep considering getting this game*I* keep trying to get this game in Blaze's giveaway :P
I could use votes by the way *whistles innocently*
Post by: Sonlirain on October 09, 2015, 07:47:37 pm
Post by: TempAcc on October 09, 2015, 07:58:59 pm
I still haven't managed to make the jester useful, though. There's no instance in which I'd use him for damage/bleed instead of a highway man or a hellion, and there are other things that can heal stress while also providing damage or support. Now that they added the houndmaster, there's even less incentive for me to use him.
Post by: pisskop on October 09, 2015, 08:03:29 pm
He does awesome work. Admittedly I use him primarily as a cost-reduction agent, destressing characters insteads of paying for booze, but he is far from useless in a melee. If he needs to kill I use lunge to slot3 and hook everything.
Having him in a rather flexible lineup helps a great deal. grave robber too, but I care less for her.
Post by: pisskop on October 10, 2015, 03:03:57 pm
Spoiler: Team of A-tier monster-adventurers (click to show/hide)
So their ai could probs be better, and there may already be a better was to do it because their atacks are random. stop marking, start scalping those marks.
Their loot is too high, and at least at this level they're beatable. I wouldn't want to fight a whole dungeon of just them, but maybe as an uncommon encounter worth slightly more loot (like trinkets) it could be funsies.
Other than that they have more hp than the average bear but they could be more effective if they coordinated.
Anywho:
Please try and tell (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nbf3ucfouh4hzvu/DD%20proposed%20DD%20critters%20-%20Copy.zip?dl=0)
-The monster folders go into the monster folder. Suprises.
-The effects file goes into scripts/effects. Really all youd need is the summoners buff data, which you dont need if you dont care to use or try it. So maybe ignore that one.
-The string names goes into localization. Theyre all bulked in the middle, and not required. Copy the data out and paste it inot yours?
-Lastly, they need to spawn. Putting them into a dungeon/mash file will make them spawn.
Post by: debvon on October 14, 2015, 03:44:52 am
Post by: Sonlirain on October 14, 2015, 07:20:00 am
I know i had a run where most unburnt torches had gems in them.
Post by: Neonivek on October 15, 2015, 11:39:23 am
Post by: Calech on October 15, 2015, 11:52:00 am
So uhhh... How do you camp?
- Have firewood (it's only given on quests where camping is possible, ie. Medium or Long quests)
- Be in a room
- Right click on the firewood
(optional) - Try not to die when ambushed in the night
Post by: debvon on October 15, 2015, 11:54:47 am
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2015, 12:25:31 pm
So uhhh... How do you camp?
You can only camp on medium and above missions. If you aren't given firewood at the mission start, you don't get to camp.
Post by: Drakale on October 15, 2015, 12:46:00 pm
The jester have +bleed artifacts and the doc +blight. I just stack a lot of dot on the monsters and kill the immediate threats with the Crusader/Jester lance and dirk stab. The 2 guy bleed and 2 guy blight skills are godly even on high hp targets. The while the monsters melt, just stun with crusader/vestal/plague doctor. Any remaining move will serve to heal the party from dmg and stress, and you can easily keep extending fights quite a while this way. The combo even work well on most bosses.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 15, 2015, 12:59:13 pm
Quote
Any remaining move will serve to heal the party from dmg and stress, and you can easily keep extending fights quite a while this way.Seven words:
Quote
Why do we tarry and invite danger?
Post by: Drakale on October 15, 2015, 01:19:06 pm
Post by: pisskop on October 15, 2015, 04:57:56 pm
Stress resist is pretty nice too, but especially now that the houndmaster is in Ive been focusing more on using stress healers.
If theres a party doing veteran level quests Im probably paying for their destressing and running newbies in dungeon every other mission to train them.
I do have a question: how high is your mortality rate typically? I dont think I lose people very often at all, and only dismiss them if I get overwhelmed, like at the begining.
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2015, 05:28:35 pm
My casualty rate is near zero. Usually I lose at least one hero in the first few weeks, then after that, none.
But it's entirely up to how far you want to push your group. Generally I'm abandoning runs before the 3rd or 4th room when it becomes clear I've gotten too much bad RNG in the opening fights and rooms to feasibly finish. Yeah, I could push on and sacrifice the heroes....but once a hero is level 2 or higher, I don't really consider them expendable anymore. Not to the degree I'll force a failing party through the rest of a dungeon run.
Post by: Neonivek on October 15, 2015, 06:24:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2015, 06:52:27 pm
I wish I knew now safe it was to continue after a certain amount of mental instability. I could have finished my first dungeon hands down.
As long as you aren't getting Afflicted, almost any amount is bearable. Might put the hero out of action two weeks to recover the stress but that's about it.
Afflictions though will royally fuck you. They have cascading consequences, usually. Not only will a guy lose his turn, not only will they cause stress on other party members, they might waste someone ELSE's turn. Screw up your party order. Basically when I believe I'm a fight or two away from an Affliction (don't ever count on Virtues) and I'm not basically at the end of the run, I abandon unless I'm really hurting on gold or available heroes or w/e. But I try to keep my guys alive as much as possible. You can just zerg them at the dungeons too and that ends up being pretty effective, when you let go of caring about all but maybe 1 or 2 parties worth of guys. I try to keep my whole roster healthy and relevant.
Post by: pisskop on October 17, 2015, 12:09:10 am
Depending on the party composition, the dungeons harshness, the health/campng situation, and a reason/lack of to believe I can heal or manage the stress I might see it as flavor or as a damning reason to bail.
Most afflictions do very similar things, mechanically, but abusive and masochistic characters do more damage, iirc. Paranoid characters are fun to see. Its the hopeless ones that piss me off.
Pedit:
an example in action:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We ran into more traps than enemies in the first day, resulting in a whopping 80 stress for the vestel. And lets not dodge the damn things, lass . . . ::)
Still, The plague doctor has something that saps her dodge, and they all teamed up on her so now she's abusive to the irrational vestel. But we've had these for the last 5 or 6 fights, and the man-at-arms is doing awesome. Doesnt even have stress resist on.
What I guess I mean is that affliction =/= run for the exit. This was completely managable, abliet annoying. Maybe a 4/10 for difficulty containing the affliction.
Post by: Neonivek on October 17, 2015, 03:04:26 am
Post by: pisskop on October 17, 2015, 10:18:30 pm
:-\
Maybe because I need to set a rerward type? Theres no rewarded family set?
Or, maybe I dont have any valid quests set for it. duh.
Still need a second boss cluster. 4 more heroes? Or a fake chthulu?
Theres also a mod to be had for the DD if one were to rebalance curios and make custom art for gather/purify quests.
pedit: the game did not appreciate me trying to mess with the quest ids and whatnots. In fact, I found a way to glitch extra loot/family artifacts/monies/traits, without actually modding in extra rewards.
Post by: pisskop on October 28, 2015, 06:24:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Monsters with uncustomized corpses will grab the first pic they can for the corpse. Also when I say your adventurer characters are OP I mean they roflstomp. I set the monsters to the equivalent of lvl 1 for ugrades/skills/resilve level. They roflstompin'. Hound's Harry for MVP.
Post by: Stuebi on November 03, 2015, 09:42:00 am
Firstly, it's the dungeon where you get the shield-upgradeparts. Which is usually the first thing I want to upgrade the Church and the Inn (Less cost, more heal). So it's a pain that the Cove just flat-out feels harder than other dungeons.
Second, I feel that it's just generally designed badly. On one hand, it has a couple of armored enemies where you're supposed to use DoT's. On the other, Fishmen have an extra resistance to bleed, making Blight the only really viable tactic against those armored fu*kers. It just baffles me, because no other dungeon FORCES you to use one specific damage type like that. Then we have Thralls. Whose Explosion-Attack can crit for upwards 20. On each Party Member. That's just flat-out lazy "Our game is supposed to be hard guise so just crank that damage up to eleven".
I had a run today where one of the Warrior-Fishmen (The ones with high protection and guard) guarded the Shaman. Since the guy can only really be downed by Blight, I had my Graverobber Blight him repeatedtly. But since it's a DoT, I was still looking at around 4 or 5 Turns (or even more) before he would die. In the end, the Fight almost took 20 rounds before I was finally able to down the guy and kill the shaman, who healed the warrior twice when he was close to death.
I also feel that the stress-inducing attacks got a lot stronger. Tempting Goblet, Stressful Incantation and the fishmen-variant gives 3-5 bars, sometimes even more. Again, I feel like this is just cheap difficulty. The game felt right before the Cove, where it was totally possible to get a really bad run, or a really good one, depending on RNG. And I was fine with that. Now it seems they just keep stacking more and more stuff against you to make the game feel even more unfair. And I'm not sure I like the change.
Post by: nenjin on November 03, 2015, 10:07:01 am
And so the rest of us who still find the game challenging end up with stuff like the Cove.
Post by: pisskop on November 03, 2015, 10:17:12 am
The difference between full light and full-dark is real, both in terms of stress and damage.
I do agree bleeding is on the weak side but almost every hero can cause it and Im sure there's a joke about fish not being red meat somewhere.
Their damage is on the hgher end in the cove, but that could end up being the/a gimmick of the dungeon.
I feel like the Cove is currently about as hard as other dungeons were on the earlier builds.
Presumably the reason 'cup of stress' is more damaging is to make them more of a threat. Stress is only so important to
Post by: Sonlirain on November 03, 2015, 10:55:57 am
I smashed my way to level 3 on most heroes without much of a problem.
Then decided to do the lingering bosses in the cove and warrens (flesh and crew) so i got a set of 2 greenhorns that went along with my 2 level 2 champs.
Entering the cove. Medium querst apprentice level.
4 fishmen pop up.
- hit highwayman. Critical.
- hit highwayman not critical but a high damage roll.
Highwayman is at deaths door.
- hit highway man from the back row with spearfishing.
Highwayman endures at deaths door.
- another hit on the highway man from the back row.
Deathblow.
God i love RNG and dickish AI.
Post by: debvon on November 03, 2015, 01:07:22 pm
I'm gonna do some 'covesplaining here so don't get too upset folks. It's really not as terrible as some people make it out to be. There's definitely a difficulty spike no doubt about it, but there are measures you can take to make it a lot less daunting.
First if all of your cove expeditions have failed try bringing a man-at-arms. Even if you stick him in the third row back. While the cove does have some high damage attacks they're all fairly predictable. Like I said earlier (and unless they changed it) seaward slash and spear fishing can only target one of two people depending on where the pelagic grouper is standing. Man-at-arms can usually intercept their attacks. Also, octocestus can only hit your front half, very predictable and easily blocked. Hell, if man at arms is in your front row you can intercept octocestus 100% of the time and just cure the bleeding. You can use rampart to stun something and get your man into position at the same time if he's in the third row.
Second, pelagic groupers and shamans are very fast and somewhat fragile. If you've got your team loaded down with -speed trinkets you're going to take an ass kicking at the start of every turn. Instead, take off those trinkets and put on any +speed ones you might have found (if they exist?). Bring bolster with your man-at-arms. If you get turns in before the groupers you can completely negate their damage for that turn by 1-2 shotting them.
Blight IS the better option for cove, bringing a plague doctor usually works out for multiple reasons.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"So what you're saying is in order to clear the cove I HAVE to have a man-at-arms and a plague doctor?" Nope. Those two classes just shine there and do well with a lot of team comps. If you're struggling, try them out, bring useful abilities, get rid of your -speed shit so you have a chance of taking initiative over groupers and bring stuns. I believe stunning a pelagic guardian will bring down his guard on his ally. Crusader and barbarian are both capable of this, not just man-at-arms. You don't need dots to kill a guardian efficiently, they're meant to be beefy as hell and will take multiple turns to kill no matter what.
An upgraded occultist does well here with his barrage ability. He also pairs well with the plague doctor because of her ability to fix botched wyrd reconstructions if it's necessary. The arbalest is great because of her group speed buff from camping. She can also pick off shamans, prevent disasters with rallying flare (3 monsters in the cove stun regularly), and her bandage can be good with wyrd reconstruction but it takes up turns.
Finally just a general tip for people struggling: if you have stuns/intercepts and the only enemy alive is weak, predictable, or susceptible to stuns, drag out the fight to stitch your dying up. I know that the developers programmed a "countermeasure" to this scummy tactic, but it's really not that effective. If your team is somewhat relaxed yet almost dead you should be taking advantage of this.
But yeah fuck drowned thralls right in their bloated torso holes. That's the official strategy guide answer for those bastards.
Post by: Sonlirain on November 03, 2015, 01:41:34 pm
I was experimenting with a mobile highwayman build with duelist advance and point blank shot so i may have got hit with spearfishing and then advanced from the third row to the second only to be finished off with slashes.
Or i could just have a faulty memory. I just remember my highwayman getting downed really early in the fight without me being able to do much of anything about it.
Post by: Stuebi on November 04, 2015, 09:52:38 am
-snip-
Don't get me wrong, I'm not decrying the cove as some incredibly bad "THE GAME IS NOW RUINED, RUINED I SAY"-thing. But making one Dungeon flat out harder than the other two just strikes me as bad design-choice.
After a couple attempts and getting my sh*t pushed in a couple times, I adapted. I've been doing fairly realiable runs with specific setups, mainly Occultist-Plague Doctor-Highwayman-Grave Robber. But after realizing that you get Crests fairly often in other dungeons, I've been completely skipping the Cove, because I know that I just have to throw more ressources at it to get trough compared to the other areas.
On a completely unrelated note. By god, do they need to increase Portrait Drop rate. I went to the Warrens thrice today, and got 4 in total. I mean, wtf.
Post by: Sonlirain on November 04, 2015, 10:09:08 am
Post by: pisskop on November 04, 2015, 11:00:24 am
Guildmaster,blacksmith, wagon, church, asylum, nomad, bar, camp.
Post by: pisskop on November 04, 2015, 12:55:05 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 04, 2015, 12:56:03 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on November 25, 2015, 01:11:31 pm
Worth it? I heard mixed opinions about it when first released in early access.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 25, 2015, 01:14:09 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 25, 2015, 01:24:27 pm
But IMO DD is already as polished and content rich as many fully released indie games. The audio quality, music, narrative and visuals are polished to a mirror sheen.
Post by: Sirus on November 25, 2015, 01:43:13 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on November 25, 2015, 08:22:54 pm
Are the devs still working on it? I noticed the titular endgame dungeon "Darkest Dungeon" hasn't been added yet.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 25, 2015, 09:00:38 pm
Post by: BFEL on November 27, 2015, 08:12:11 am
Beat the Apprentice Necromancer with two Vestals, a Crusader and a Bounty Hunter. Was getting worried when the necro managed to get to 3rd rank and it became clear I wasn't gonna win through attrition, but then I used my Bounty Hunter's smoke bomb or whatever to stun the bastard while drawing him into 2nd rank, then my front line bashed his face in.
Post by: Spehss _ on November 27, 2015, 10:10:27 am
FINALLY got this. Thanks steam holiday sale!Now take on the Wizened Hag in the Weald.
Beat the Apprentice Necromancer with two Vestals, a Crusader and a Bounty Hunter. Was getting worried when the necro managed to get to 3rd rank and it became clear I wasn't gonna win through attrition, but then I used my Bounty Hunter's smoke bomb or whatever to stun the bastard while drawing him into 2nd rank, then my front line bashed his face in.
I had a crazy-ass time with that fight.
Post by: BFEL on November 27, 2015, 11:18:28 am
Yeah...I just got my ass kicked by that one as it so happens :(FINALLY got this. Thanks steam holiday sale!Now take on the Wizened Hag in the Weald.
Beat the Apprentice Necromancer with two Vestals, a Crusader and a Bounty Hunter. Was getting worried when the necro managed to get to 3rd rank and it became clear I wasn't gonna win through attrition, but then I used my Bounty Hunter's smoke bomb or whatever to stun the bastard while drawing him into 2nd rank, then my front line bashed his face in.
I had a crazy-ass time with that fight.
Cheap ass shit too. "Into the Potx100" because obviously no-resist formation fuckers that also deal damage EVERY FUCKING INSTANT is a great boss design.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 27, 2015, 11:50:10 am
Darkest Dungeon is on sale as a part of the Autumn Steam Sale. 40% off, $12 instead of $20.Maybe if it works on your computer. It doesn't work on mine, so it'll probably be two or three years before I can play this. But I will play it!
Worth it? I heard mixed opinions about it when first released in early access.
EDIT: They actually fixed it so it might work on my computer. I'll have to test it out.
Post by: Spehss _ on November 27, 2015, 12:10:45 pm
Yeah...I just got my ass kicked by that one as it so happens :(I just barely beat her my second time, after a total party wipe the first time.
Cheap ass shit too. "Into the Potx100" because obviously no-resist formation fuckers that also deal damage EVERY FUCKING INSTANT is a great boss design.
Spoiler: spoilers for fighting hag, do not read if you like learning stuff yourself (click to show/hide)
In other news, I just killed the sonorous prophet, first try. Crusaders seem kinda OP. 2 crusaders with holy lance work so well together.
Post by: pisskop on November 27, 2015, 12:14:04 pm
Spoiler: Hag (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on November 27, 2015, 02:17:54 pm
Anyone interested? Setting up the op and first update now. Will link in my sig.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 27, 2015, 02:25:49 pm
Post by: BFEL on November 27, 2015, 02:33:14 pm
Thinking of doing a Darkest Dungeon let's play. There will be dorfings, and once dorfed you can provide input on how your character is geared, skilled, treated, and what missions you want to go on.I vote the estate be named the "Ebony Raven Way" estate :P
Anyone interested? Setting up the op and first update now. Will link in my sig.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 30, 2015, 06:06:04 pm
To me the abomination seems a bit on the overpowered side.. what with it fulfilling the functions of several classes in one neat package.
I guess it's a balancing point that it doesn't seem to fulfill those functions very well... still...
Post by: nenjin on November 30, 2015, 06:22:44 pm
As for the Abomination, it's too early to tell. But using him implies excluding some go-to classes. (Crusader, Vestal.)
Post by: Spehss _ on November 30, 2015, 08:55:55 pm
So... thoughts on the latest patch & latest class?
To me the abomination seems a bit on the overpowered side.. what with it fulfilling the functions of several classes in one neat package.
I guess it's a balancing point that it doesn't seem to fulfill those functions very well... still...
As for the Abomination, it's too early to tell. But using him implies excluding some go-to classes. (Crusader, Vestal.)
Plus he seems to be a constant source of stress for your other party members. At first glance all his combat skills require him to be in beast form, transforming to beast form causes +8 stress to your other party members, costs a turn of a battle, and turning back only relieves 3 stress. I don't know if he can remain in beast form between battles, haven't tried him yet. Honestly it seems risky to take him along for long missions, due to the stress he'd cause.
Post by: BishopX on November 30, 2015, 10:29:15 pm
Spoiler: Hag (click to show/hide)
I've had good luck with teams that could deal spread damage on the middle ranks...
Post by: Sirus on December 01, 2015, 03:00:38 am
Post by: Spehss _ on December 01, 2015, 11:04:46 am
Am I going to have to start a new file in order to see the new stuff? I'm not all that far in, but my current run isn't going horribly yet and I'd rather not abandon it unless I have to.Nah. I got an abomination recruited from the cart in the run I've been playing prior to this update.
Post by: Sirus on December 01, 2015, 07:55:46 pm
Also there are debuffs that last until camp.
So that's fun.
Post by: Bauglir on December 01, 2015, 08:02:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was gonna spend the night enjoying this game, but I'm now too pissed off for that to happen. I know the game's supposed to be challenging and about taking risks, but this was neither. This was a nightmarish confluence of Challenge Is Big Numbers and the mother of all RNG shits.
EDIT: I like the Abomination. Manacles is way too good for my preferred playstyle - I don't even transform the guy unless he gets shuffled into the front rank and I can't give up momentum. Might actually be a little overpowered, but the party restriction stings (and I hate it in principle; I'd rather a severe penalty that can prove a challenge to work around, instead of a "No, just no." response from the game).
Post by: nenjin on December 01, 2015, 08:22:50 pm
Quote
I was gonna spend the night enjoying this game, but I'm now too pissed off for that to happen.
Been there.
"Tonight's a night for Darkest Dungeon, it's your turn on the gaming roulette wheel of "EA games i've bought and not yet finished"!"
20 minutes later.
"You know what? Fuck this shit. I have too much other stuff I could get into that doesn't make me this angry."
Maybe I'm just getting a little too old for "hardcore" games without being a big fat cheater. Something a friend said to me a while ago that's sorta stuck with me, when I tried to hype him on a game. "You know I would love to be 16 again and stay up to 4am mastering every facet of a game until I'm King of Shit Mountain. I just don't have the time anymore." DD makes me relate to that. I only have so much time to spend on gaming during the week, I shouldn't spend it getting frustrated the way DD frustrates. It's like a casual mobile game in its slickness and low attention commitment, but kicks like a 1981 RPG. You get lulled in by its ease and accessibility and charm and then, for the sensitive types, punches you in the dick and runs off laughing.
Post by: Bauglir on December 01, 2015, 08:34:37 pm
The only lesson I learned here was, "I don't like DD as much as I thought I did."
*I know that's kind of a thing with Early Access, and DD is amazingly well-polished for being in that category, but it still contributed
Post by: Sirus on December 01, 2015, 08:53:35 pm
Good lord. Debuffs upon debuffs upon debuffs.This bears repeating, I think. Did Rend For The Old Gods really need to add a stress-increasing debuff on top of its bleed effect, when you consider how often Cultist Brawlers are found in combination with enemies that already induce massive amounts of stress? Or did Blanket Fire, already an annoying party-wide damage dealer, need to become even more annoying with party-wide debuffs as well? A character can potentially be knocked into Death's Door from a single critical attack, does it really need to punish the player further with debuffs that persist until you return to the Hamlet?
I'm definitely getting that dick-kicking feeling right now, is what I'm saying. Just lost a promising party (thankfully none of my main heroes) to some of these new mechanics.
Post by: lordcooper on December 01, 2015, 09:04:16 pm
Post by: Sonlirain on December 01, 2015, 09:05:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yo dawg we herd you like managing healthbars so we will screw with your heroes mental hygiene even more now.
Post by: nenjin on December 01, 2015, 09:13:08 pm
As for the enemy attack debuffs...that would seem like the kind of thing you add in over champion and w/e difficulties. Just seems like more beating the shit out of people from Day 1 for new players.
Post by: Sirus on December 01, 2015, 09:33:31 pm
Two TPKs in one night, down to 5k gold. I think I'm done for the day.
Post by: Sonlirain on December 01, 2015, 10:08:45 pm
That was barely enough to deal with starvation on medium sometimes thanks to randomLOLhunger.
To be honest they need to remake the hunger system completely. As is you can literally eat 4 units of food with everyone to heal and next corridor they suddenly starve.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 02, 2015, 05:48:00 am
The most annoying thing for me is that I can't just take my "high" level dudes into a dungeon and help out the lil ones level with that or farm easy cash that just takes time. If you do a level 1 mission with 4x 0 0 0 0 guys or with 4x 2 2 2 2 guys - the game does not care, but it should. Allow us to do a level 1 run with a "3 1 0 0" party for example, since the total level is still lower then would be expected. Aarrgg - didn't even find any mods to fix this yet...
Post by: pisskop on December 02, 2015, 11:54:40 am
then vets could charge extra or request ownership of a trinket or w.e. to do babysitting jobs. then you could hire them into a guild.
oh yea. ownership not being a thing here because because the player gets full control is very
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2015, 11:58:47 am
I really dislike the provision limit, just on principle. They're dictating a finite limit to how you can deal with the RNG. Granted, something is probably reasonable. 16 food is unreasonable though? That was barely enough to deal with starvation on medium sometimes thanks to randomLOLhunger.
As for the enemy attack debuffs...that would seem like the kind of thing you add in over champion and w/e difficulties. Just seems like more beating the shit out of people from Day 1 for new players.
They could have made it work if it seemed have a reason to exist other then screw you over :P
Post by: Drakale on December 02, 2015, 12:18:11 pm
That was barely enough to deal with starvation on medium sometimes thanks to randomLOLhunger.
To be honest they need to remake the hunger system completely. As is you can literally eat 4 units of food with everyone to heal and next corridor they suddenly starve.
Yeah I have issues with that too. There are some other instance where they went full RNG, with no regard with logic and that kinda break the immersion.
I actually kinda wish they wrap up the game's ending and start working on something new with better planned game mechanics. I don't hate the game, but I don't see it drastically improving without completely remaking it at this point.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 02, 2015, 01:19:34 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 02, 2015, 03:37:40 pm
As I said earlier, I don't understand why they hit the player with all this right at the beginning. The barrier to entry on this game is high, IMO. They've consistently had a problem where the early game is harder than the late game, but do their balancing and mechanics changes account for this? No, they don't. They just keep front loading more difficulty on the game, hoping to make the endgame more challenging while making the beginning just that much worse.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 02, 2015, 07:10:11 pm
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2015, 07:18:42 pm
My god... they're the Youtube of games - every update makes things a bit worse for no adequate reason.
It is what I call the "You aren't playing the game the way 'I' want it to be played" development cycle.
A long time ago there was a alien game where a Tesla weapon existed. It wasn't overpowered or anything but it was very effective at hitting little critters and worked well in support with slowing and damaging other aliens.
The developer hated the fact that people were using it as a legitimate weapon and nerfed it to uselessness because people weren't using the weapon the way they wanted to. Not because it was overpowered, not because it was ruining the metagame, or even lore reasons... just because the creator didn't like the idea of it being used as a weapon.
Which yes, artistic integrity is important.
Yet sometimes developers are so focused on how they want their game to be played, that they don't notice that the way the game is currently being played is fine and they shouldn't change it.
Darkest Dungeon is starting to hit that square on. "I want food to be an issue, I don't like that people are just packing a lot of food... I know I'll add artificial scarcity by adding limitations!"
And it isn't that there aren't ways they couldn't be implemented :P
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 02, 2015, 08:06:35 pm
No offense, but I think some people here are jumping before actually testing the new system. Food is not *that* limited. The limit is 16 in short runs, 24 in medium ones and... I haven't tested long runs yet but I assume it likewise goes up.
It's not too horrid TBH.
What I find missing is
- more meaningful usefulness for the stuff you can buy.
- make it easier to build yourself up after a catastrophic failure. EG: Giving you discounts for newly recruited heroes' training. Making it easier to build up cash if you're strapped...
Post by: Neonivek on December 03, 2015, 08:34:27 am
I am not even past the part of the game any of these changes affect.
Post by: nenjin on December 03, 2015, 10:29:06 am
Post by: Bauglir on December 03, 2015, 11:52:00 pm
Post by: Anvilfolk on December 05, 2015, 12:32:05 pm
Maybe they could have travel rations at $75 which just keep hunger at bay, and deluxe food at $150 that had a chance, say 75%, of healing you for 1hp. People could still try that strategy, it'd just be less effective.
Post by: Sindain on December 05, 2015, 12:35:52 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 08, 2015, 05:07:15 pm
You could load up on food, and it was a calculated cost; you lose money and inventory space, and in return gain a weak but at least kind of reliable source of healing.
But that's be further limited to the whims of the RNG. I've had a lot of food just burnt through by repeated hunger checks, so I tended to carry quite a lot.
Overall I don't think they're taking the game in a better direction in the past few updates. It's a shame.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 11, 2015, 05:31:18 am
Aye, the food limit is high enough that it's a non-issue. Which raises the issue of "Why bother?" I don't know what problem it's supposed to be solving. If the game's supposed to be exploratory, learning how much food to take seems like a reasonable thing to ask people to learn - especially compared to things like "The Plague Doctor is almost mandatory for the Cove because you pretty much need Blight". But, yeah, I really only object on principle - in practice, it changes nothing.I think the issue is people completing missions by throwing money at them. Like, let's just bring 100 food and heal to full after every fight. Its not like money is terribly limited in this game.
Post by: ventuswings on December 11, 2015, 11:28:05 am
Post by: Neonivek on December 11, 2015, 11:38:32 am
I still think it might have been better to try to adjust the balance by adjusting provision prices, rather than limiting mechanic. You are hardly pushed for resources once you reach a certain point.
Like a reverse bulk cost? or rather the more you buy the more expensive it gets because this is a poor town deprived of food?
Post by: Sonlirain on December 11, 2015, 11:43:00 am
Aye, the food limit is high enough that it's a non-issue. Which raises the issue of "Why bother?" I don't know what problem it's supposed to be solving. If the game's supposed to be exploratory, learning how much food to take seems like a reasonable thing to ask people to learn - especially compared to things like "The Plague Doctor is almost mandatory for the Cove because you pretty much need Blight". But, yeah, I really only object on principle - in practice, it changes nothing.I think the issue is people completing missions by throwing money at them. Like, let's just bring 100 food and heal to full after every fight. Its not like money is terribly limited in this game.
You can't do that because your guys become "full" after eating 4 units of food.
Unless of course they suddenly get hungry again as they turn a corner.
Post by: LordPorkins on December 11, 2015, 11:44:09 am
"Darkest Dungeon is Lovecrafts Fantasy Football League"
Post by: ventuswings on December 11, 2015, 11:44:43 am
Post by: LordPorkins on December 11, 2015, 11:48:55 am
Post by: Spehss _ on December 11, 2015, 12:14:02 pm
-snip-
Nice. Made me snicker.
Post by: nenjin on December 11, 2015, 12:17:09 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on January 01, 2016, 12:32:05 pm
The provision limits aren't really noticeable to me, but I'm not in the late game with tons of gold yet. The new debuffs enemies can inflict don't seem that noticeable outside of really early game. The new enemy debuffs in general seem prone to being resisted.
So I've been playing around with the abomination. Seems hellaciously good. They can dish out crazy damage when buffed due to their high base weapon damage, human form has great utilities such as blight which lowers blight resist or a good damaging single target stun, and beast mode is amazing. Having to balance stress seems a reasonable requirement to having an abomination beast on the team. A jester in the back works well for a party with an abomination if you expect to regularly transform. Jesters seem to be an abomination's best friend.
Just killed the Brigand 8-Pounder with a party of two abominations in front, a houndmaster behind them, and a jester in back.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Stress wasn't much of an issue, despite two abominations in the party. The two abominations syngergized by reducing each other's stress by transforming back to human after each battle. They regularly got kills or crits and lowered stress as well. The jester was only there to buff and reduce stress, so if I had enough speed to outpace the monsters I was fighting I'd lower stress. Occasionally houndmaster pitched in with lowering stress, although less reliably than the jester.
Post by: Sirus on January 01, 2016, 01:07:23 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on January 01, 2016, 01:39:10 pm
Corpses have been optional for a while now IIRC, but I'm glad to hear that the death's door debuff's persistence can be turned off. That thing was pretty nasty.I've been playing default settings and it seems a reasonable design decision.
It makes me want to keep characters healed up and avoid having characters get to death's door in the first place, rather than something kinda exploity like ignoring health and having everyone kept barely out of death's door with a vestal's party heal, which reminds me of Borderlands 2 and "health gating".
It can make fights like the Pounders become unwinnable when everyone's knocked to death's door from one hit *cough cannonballs cough* or a fight with the hag where party members get sucked into the pot whenever possible, but then again the game has a message every time you boot up the game reminding that "Darkest Dungeon is about making the best of a bad situation! :^D"
Post by: pisskop on January 01, 2016, 01:41:14 pm
Doesnt matter if its 2 damage or 21 crit. DD is DD, and there is no dying from 1 hit if you arent at deaths door.
But it sounds like they stopped that exploit, so whenever I get back to this.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 01, 2016, 02:32:00 pm
EDIT: Made a quick save and played until it gave me the tutorial for corpses. No mention of loot. So there's no reason to even have corpses, really. Why play with corpses on at all, then. All it does is make the game harder.
Post by: Sonlirain on January 01, 2016, 03:14:09 pm
Sometimes you cna use them to your advantage.
For example you have 2 skeleton crossbowmen and 2 cultists.
If you pull the ranged characters in and kill them they will leave a corpse so (A for archer B for brawler and C for corpse) you can go from BBAA to AABB and after killing the archers off get CCBB who cna only use their less effective moves (like stumbling scratch that is there only for the AI to have something to do from every position) while with corpses off you would just have 2 melee characters on the frontline BB--.
Of course things get complicated for you if you have a party lacking control and/or damage against slots 3 and 4.
Post by: pisskop on January 01, 2016, 03:34:47 pm
Yea.
EDIT: Made a quick save and played until it gave me the tutorial for corpses. No mention of loot. So there's no reason to even have corpses, really. Why play with corpses on at all, then. All it does is make the game harder.
The response to people concentrating attacks on the front ranks to cripple the back ranks was to add corpses.
The response to people complaining about the enemies holding ranks with corpes was to make them optional.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 01, 2016, 04:06:19 pm
The response to people concentrating attacks on the front ranks to cripple the back ranks was to add corpses.I do like how they're making some aspects of the game optional. A lot of the game is reliant on rng and rng can be fickle and/or insanely punishing. Adding options adds variability. So for example, a new player who's having a hard time can remove the permanent death's door debuff to help him survive the early game where options are limited and rng is more punishing. Rather than just have a new player bash his head against the hypothetical wall and get frustrated and quit the game altogether because rng gave an awful early game short dungeon with 4 blockages, no successful trap disarms and nothing but fights full of skeleton clerics throwing chalices.
The response to people complaining about the enemies holding ranks with corpes was to make them optional.
It reminds me of second wave options from Fireaxis' XCOM.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on January 01, 2016, 05:30:38 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 01, 2016, 05:44:40 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on January 01, 2016, 06:38:04 pm
So, who crapped their pants when they encountered the [Spoiler] COLLECTORI cleared a level 1 (green) "beat all room fights" mission fairly quickly in the ruins and felt it was safe enough to explore a bit for extra loot. Ran into the COLLECTOR as a random hallway battle. Didn't think it was bad at first.
Several turns later I thought the game had messed up and gave me a boss battle in a hallway. Ran away from the fight and ended the looting early. Seems like an unfair mook to appear randomly in level 1 missions.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 01, 2016, 08:52:09 pm
Exactly.
I don't know about you, but I play it because it is a cruel mistress. Success, or even non-horrendous failure is a struggle. This is way this game is so DELECTABLE
Edit: that and the narrators voice. Someone needs to release a copy of all his lines so I can fall asleep soothed by his melodious tones.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 01, 2016, 10:41:57 pm
Name one thing about this game that's fair.
Free firewood, free heros, good prices for trinket sales, the ability to heal stress with spells, no permanent downside from wounds, ability to lock positive skills etc?
I like the collector, but I would prefer if he would use actual hero s from your graveyard...
Post by: ductape on January 02, 2016, 12:07:34 am
So, will i like this game?
Post by: Bauglir on January 02, 2016, 12:21:03 am
debating whether to get this game or not. The thread here is certainly long enough to show me that folks like it, but I dont really like "hard for the sake of being hard" games much. For example, I really liked FTL when I first started but after making almost no progress on many attempts, I just burned out. I like to feel some sense of progression and the meta-game ship upgrade thing in FTL wasnt enough for me.I think you'll like this game most of the time, because there is definitely a strong sense of progression as your heroes become more powerful and you cross off goals.
So, will i like this game?
However, I think you will also occasionally be incredibly angry at it, because occasionally it just throws a completely unwinnable situation at you and expects you to deal with it.
Your call if that's worth it.
The most recent update looks really good, though - I'm a huge fan of the part where trying to target an Afflicted character who refuses allows you to do something else with the character instead. That was one of the biggest tantrum spirally mechanics in the game, and one of the ones that felt the least fair about it, because it meant that the correct choice could often fuck you over because the RNG was having a bad day (and I really hate mechanics that punish you for learning how to play the game).
EDIT: To clarify that last part, characters who crack from stress become Afflicted with a psychological problem. If you target such a character with some ability, for instance healing, they may refuse to allow it. It used to be that this would not only prevent you from executing your plan, the character who did the healing or whatever would also lose their turn. Now your plan is just ruined, but you can try and salvage it - which is something I like the game to be encouraging at every opportunity.
Any mechanic that gives you more chances to desperately try to make the best of a bad situation is a good one, but the Moar Challenge crowd tends to encourage mechanics that don't actually give you that because if something goes wrong or you make a mistake, you're fucked no matter what you do. And that's not desperate, that's depressing.
Post by: Boltgun on January 02, 2016, 03:31:55 am
EDIT: To clarify that last part, characters who crack from stress become Afflicted with a psychological problem. If you target such a character with some ability, for instance healing, they may refuse to allow it. It used to be that this would not only prevent you from executing your plan, the character who did the healing or whatever would also lose their turn. Now your plan is just ruined, but you can try and salvage it - which is something I like the game to be encouraging at every opportunity.
Reading the latest patch notes, this was removed. The action fails but you keep the turn for something else.
It's not hard for the sake of being hard, but it's a game where things can turn bad at any moment and losing a character is most often because you wanted to push through with a tired and stressed party than bad luck. I did have bad luck however and I rage quit because of this.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on January 02, 2016, 03:38:55 am
That's because they've toned it down, back around the addition of the corpse update they were constantly increasing for the sake of being hard (Agh maggots and dodging corpses!) And then the heart attack from overstress added at the same time, pretty sure those forums were half in revolt over it at the time.EDIT: To clarify that last part, characters who crack from stress become Afflicted with a psychological problem. If you target such a character with some ability, for instance healing, they may refuse to allow it. It used to be that this would not only prevent you from executing your plan, the character who did the healing or whatever would also lose their turn. Now your plan is just ruined, but you can try and salvage it - which is something I like the game to be encouraging at every opportunity.
Reading the latest patch notes, this was removed. The action fails but you keep the turn for something else.
It's not hard for the sake of being hard, but it's a game where things can turn bad at any moment and losing a character is most often because you wanted to push through with a tired and stressed party than bad luck. I did have bad luck however and I rage quit because of this.
Post by: Neonivek on January 02, 2016, 03:39:10 am
Did I win? Sure! Can I afford to win? Nope! How do I afford to win? You win! Ok but how do I win again? Ohh you can't because you won previously...
My Darkest Dungeon In a Nutshell... Just this cycle of inadequacy.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 02, 2016, 04:29:06 pm
Thanks to the vestal keeping everyone healed and hovering out of death's door with her party heal, and our plague doctor for blighting the necromancer (stacked it up to 12 damage per round, really helpful) and skeletons. And our two crusader bros managing to land some good ~20 damage hits on the necromancer and managing to land the finishing blows on the last skeletons, despite the lowered accuracy from death's door.
Got several trinkets out of it, including an orange trinket for my abominations that lower the stress inflicted by transforming. That was a quest reward. Also got ~15,000 gold out of it and no one died, so that's nice.
Kinda wonder if a blight based team would've been better. Maybe 2 human abominations in the middle, and a plague doctor in front, and I guess either a jester or arbalest in back as the support.
Post by: Bauglir on January 02, 2016, 08:51:35 pm
Reading the latest patch notes, this was removed. The action fails but you keep the turn for something else.That's exactly what I mean - the action fails but you keep the turn. This is a huge improvement because it still gives you a bad situation, "Oh no, my plan is ruined because I can't get this guy to move or be healed or whatever.", but it also lets you try to make the most of it because you can react by changing your plan. Losing the turn just forces you to tolerate a bad situation. From the game's self-description, I feel like it ought to be encouraging the "Make the most of it" gameplay, which does require giving you options and chances to save yourself, instead of the "Tolerate it" gameplay, which requires creating a sense of tension because a run of bad luck can ruin everything and sometimes that's that.
It's not hard for the sake of being hard, but it's a game where things can turn bad at any moment and losing a character is most often because you wanted to push through with a tired and stressed party than bad luck. I did have bad luck however and I rage quit because of this.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 02, 2016, 10:31:50 pm
Then I tried fighting the fulminating prophet, the veteran level prophet boss. Every mook fight the enemy critted my heroes. There was one fight where the enemy got 3 crits in a row. My highwayman never got a crit the whole time, despite having anywhere between 20% and 40% crit chance. Had to bail out before even reaching the prophet.
RNG is RNG.
Post by: Sonlirain on January 03, 2016, 08:57:04 am
I came back to check out the new class and realized that i can fight the fleshy thing in the warrens.
So i scrounge up a level 1 team. Bought them equipement and all... and jsut as i set off i realized...
DAMN...
I forgot that i need money for supplies!
I had literally less than 75 gold so no food no torches no anything.
So i set off on a short run instead and had the luck of finding 2 unburnt torches that lasted me just long enough to complete the run in dim light. Didn't stick around afterwards but managed to pull 5k gold and 3 insane heroes out of the ordeal.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 03, 2016, 09:59:01 pm
I don't want to level up a party past 3 with the goal of beating a veteran boss only to find that my leveled heroes now refuse to do it and I missed the window of opportunity.
Post by: Sindain on January 03, 2016, 10:16:10 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 04, 2016, 10:47:22 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 04, 2016, 12:08:59 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 04, 2016, 12:28:43 pm
Only drops Trapehezadron and that is only to sell, sadly. I mean a lot of cool things could have been done, but... eh.
Bah.
Post by: kilakan on January 04, 2016, 12:41:00 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 04, 2016, 05:28:34 pm
He doesn't only drop tetrahedron, the second time I killed him this run he dropped a severed hand in a bag type thing that was a rare. And the time after that he dropped a camo cloak.
Whats the head do?
Post by: kilakan on January 05, 2016, 06:25:45 pm
This is what the collector dropped the second time I killed him.
Post by: Zangi on January 05, 2016, 06:38:08 pm
[img]http://puu.sh/mkZup/b1f9291d9d.jpg[/im]... Isn't he the starting highwayman? ... Is he dead in your game?
This is what the collector dropped the second time I killed him.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 05, 2016, 06:39:06 pm
Post by: kilakan on January 05, 2016, 06:55:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on January 05, 2016, 08:41:11 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 05, 2016, 08:43:02 pm
Post by: Farce on January 05, 2016, 09:30:55 pm
So, these Abominations. I like using them for tanking. They don't have any attacks in the very front, but in the one-back they can do stun attacks I think? And they have that self heal that seems pretty robust.
I think one guy in the party got killed while I was tanking with this Abomination, without any healers (a Highwayman. All of my deaths in this particular file have been Highwaymen so far, ripip), but everyone else was... pretty alright. I think.
Anyway yeah. Relatively sturdy, stun attacks, self-heal. Good tank, even without his big gimmick move dealie, in my opinion.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 05, 2016, 10:35:37 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on January 05, 2016, 10:49:36 pm
So, these Abominations. I like using them for tanking. They don't have any attacks in the very front, but in the one-back they can do stun attacks I think? And they have that self heal that seems pretty robust.
I think one guy in the party got killed while I was tanking with this Abomination, without any healers (a Highwayman. All of my deaths in this particular file have been Highwaymen so far, ripip), but everyone else was... pretty alright. I think.
Anyway yeah. Relatively sturdy, stun attacks, self-heal. Good tank, even without his big gimmick move dealie, in my opinion.
Try transforming. Try it. It's so fun. If you have a party member to reliably handle stress (Jester is best) there's no reason to not use the transform skill some times.
The best slot for an abomination utility wise is the second from the front. In the front all they can do is transform and use beast skills. In the row behind that they can use all their skills, both human and beast. I've tried parties with two abominations, one in front and one behind the first. They work really well with a jester in back to heal stress. If running two abominations I typically bring along a class in the third slot to provide buffs for the abominations, usually a plague doctor. A man-at-arms could probably work well too.
I want to try something crazy like a party with 3 or 4 abominations but I think there would be issues with keeping stress down and having everyone be able to use skills.
Post by: Farce on January 06, 2016, 02:24:46 pm
I've yet to see any Jesters or Cultists this run, either... I know Cultbro was one of my favorites for his heal in my initial play, when DD first came out. Jester was nice too, purely for his questionably-effective stress healing.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 06, 2016, 03:59:33 pm
His rage skill lets him attack any of the front 3 enemy positions, dealing good single target damage without having the "buildup" period of stacking buffs that rake requires to reach max dps. The only target he can't hit in beast form is the enemy in the very back.
I find him to be a really reliable source of damage. No worrying about crits, has good accuracy, has good ability to deal damage to either crowds or single targets.
I happened to get a couple good trinkets for the class too, a green lock grants +15% protection for tanking, and an orange lock that lowers the stress damage inflicted on both himself and the party from transforming. Makes him all around great at everything I need him for, tanking and dealing damage in beast mode.
Also the transformation animation and the animations for beast form look pretty cool. :P
I haven't gotten into the higher difficulty missions, but all the green missions I've taken him on go really smoothly, and I killed both the siren in the cove (really easily) and the bandit 8-pounder in the weald with two abominations acting as the damage dealers and tanks while a jester and plague doctor served as support.
I don't typically use a cutist. For healing in a party with the abomination I usually use either a plague doctor or arbalest.
Post by: Farce on January 06, 2016, 04:35:22 pm
Does the Doc have a heal? I thought they only got battlefield medicine, which stops bleed and blight, and doesn't -actually- heal HP or anything. I just love the Cultist because they like, the only guys that have a strong heal. Incidentally, Docs are one of my favorite classes, because of that strong back row stun and their ability to clear corpses. I also uh maybe have a hardon for plague doctors in general they are so cool looking hnngh.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on January 06, 2016, 06:46:36 pm
You'll have until the 12th to submit your design. The item should be available to use by the 19th (seems like a really small window....)
I'm not as excited by this backer reward as I once was; the way RH has envisioned trinkets means a lot of really interesting ideas will probably be rejected as too complicated, unworkable or "doesn't fit the schema of huge penalty/decent buff item."
I think it's a real pity trinkets have ended up so boring, and fan submitted ideas probably won't change that.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 06, 2016, 07:04:23 pm
Does the Doc have a heal? I thought they only got battlefield medicine, which stops bleed and blight, and doesn't -actually- heal HP or anything. I just love the Cultist because they like, the only guys that have a strong heal. Incidentally, Docs are one of my favorite classes, because of that strong back row stun and their ability to clear corpses. I also uh maybe have a hardon for plague doctors in general they are so cool looking hnngh.Battlefield medicine heals 1 hp at level 1, but it can be leveled up to increase the max hp (lvl2 heals max of 2, lvl3 has max of 3, etc) and it can crit for bonus healing, like all heal skills. The fact it can cure bleed or blight for both the doctor and the target means it effectively heals the amount of damage the blight/bleed would've inflicted over time. I typically don't carry bandages or antivenom, so blight and bleed damage can really wear down my party without a healer or a plague doctor to stop it. Other healers like vestal can't prevent bleed/blight damage, only heal. So they can heal more health per cast than plague doctor but also have to compete with the damage over time as well as the damage enemies might inflict with their next attacks.
Plague doctor has some good heal skills for camping; when I'm running a party without a vestal I typically use camping (feasts and skills) to heal if the party is really beat up.
Now that I think about it a plague doctor and cultist could compliment each other. Cultist heals but inflicts bleed, doctor removes the bleed that same turn. Because it takes 2 actions instead of 1 it probably shouldn't be relied on every turn. That extra action spent healing could've been used for damage or stunning or something.
Post by: Sindain on January 06, 2016, 07:29:01 pm
Now that I think about it a plague doctor and cultist could compliment each other. Cultist heals but inflicts bleed, doctor removes the bleed that same turn. Because it takes 2 actions instead of 1 it probably shouldn't be relied on every turn. That extra action spent healing could've been used for damage or stunning or something.
Plague Doctor and Cultist can also be a pretty strong offensive combo. Abyssal Artillery + Plague Grenade = a shit ton of damage vs back-row fishmen.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 06, 2016, 08:03:20 pm
If you backed the game for stupid amounts of money, the backer survey for designing your own trinket has gone out. There's a problem with it, as no one seems to have authorization to access the Google Doc, but I imagine they'll get that straightened out soon.Yeah, this sounds pretty lackluster. Maybe they'll get into more complicated effects than they've been willing to do so far, so you can get corpse feasting or... is heal on kill/recover stress on crit like stuff in? That'd be some low hanging fruit, if not.
You'll have until the 12th to submit your design. The item should be available to use by the 19th (seems like a really small window....)
I'm not as excited by this backer reward as I once was; the way RH has envisioned trinkets means a lot of really interesting ideas will probably be rejected as too complicated, unworkable or "doesn't fit the schema of huge penalty/decent buff item."
I think it's a real pity trinkets have ended up so boring, and fan submitted ideas probably won't change that.
Hopefully it won't just be Biff's Rod: +2 Crit, +Edgy Flavor Text. I know Biff spent a lot of money on the game but still.
Post by: nenjin on January 07, 2016, 07:05:50 pm
You get to choose up to 3 positive attributes from the pre-determined list of effects, and 3 triggers that affect them. (Low torchlight, etc...) If you want them to be trigger based. You do the same with 3 negative attributes. Choosing more than 1 attribute dilutes the effect of all the others on each side (positive/negative.)
So yeah. It's a personalized trinket, for sure. There's just no surprises out there. And they're still going to need to balance these. (It appears you can create 3 positive effects that are always active, counterbalanced by one conditional negative effect. Shit, if most trinkets in game were like that, they'd all be a hell of a lot more appealing to use.) No doubt they'll have to contact backers about items like that and give them the bad news that nothing can be that good in DD. And given the timeline for deployment, whether they'll get custom art is questionable.
I'm making a DODGE cloak with all sorts of thiefy traits on it at the cost of reduced HP, and reduced Virtue chance in low torchlight. I'm disappointed though. I wanted to make a trinket to increase gold drops at the cost of reduced stress resist.
-edit-
Apparently the deployment of trinkets on the 19th is going to be a sort of beta test on them, so players can try them out and then give feedback for tweaks. You'll type your trinket name into the vendor and you'll just get it in inventory to use. The timeline makes more sense for that and it's a fairly cool way to handle custom content. They're probably going to dump the results of the survey page straight into a database and from there into code. I admire the slickness of it while still being disappointed by the final results (trinkets in general.)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 08, 2016, 12:53:18 am
I'm making a DOGE cloak with all sorts of thiefy traits on it at the cost of reduced HP, and reduced Virtue chance in low torchlight.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordPorkins on January 08, 2016, 09:27:15 am
Post by: nenjin on January 08, 2016, 11:58:25 am
I'm making a DOGE cloak with all sorts of thiefy traits on it at the cost of reduced HP, and reduced Virtue chance in low torchlight.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thief Doge needs a face mask/bandanna.
-edit-
Like so:
(http://i.imgur.com/xy0Tcg5l.jpg) (http://imgur.com/xy0Tcg5)
Post by: Bauglir on January 12, 2016, 10:27:36 pm
EDIT: Then the rest of the mission played out as expected. I guess I just had a run of bad luck in another form. Turns out the party setup is almost invincible, except when it comes up against an enemy party with stress-inducers in the back. Evidently attacks that are purely stress have a very high hit rate (or it was just more bad luck). One Crusader, even with +40% damage, can't chew through the front ranks fast enough, and taking Men-At-Arms off buff duty (to attack rank 3) for more than a turn is ruinous for survivability, with a very low damage payoff. Fortunately the one guy who got stressed decided to have a Virtue this time, which saved my bacon. Would've lost the party otherwise, so I can't complain too much.
Post by: nenjin on January 13, 2016, 11:50:05 am
There's a ton of stuff that's going to get pushed back to post release updates: namely town events, the musketeer (arbalest reskin essentially), the merchant class, and half a dozen other backer rewards are all being pushed to the spring/summer.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't really blame them for missing a lot of their goals for release. They're a really small team and the standard of quality they set for themselves is pretty high. That said....it seems like a lot of time was spent mid-development for things that ultimately became optional or didn't have that much impact. Not sure if all the time last year was really all that wisely spent (I'm sure they could have spent some of that Darkest Cash on more team members but decided not to.) Still, I'm not unhappy with the results. I just hope it doesn't take 6 months before the actual, true, final game is released. TBH even calling it a full release is misleading these days. Games are in a perpetual state of change. Calling it release at this point is just a marketing gimmick and/or so they can say they weren't that far off of their Kickstarter schedule.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 13, 2016, 11:52:56 am
Post by: nenjin on January 13, 2016, 12:08:33 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 13, 2016, 12:21:36 pm
Well it's technically more than a reskin. New model, new animations, probably new barks. Same abilities and gear though, IIRC.If they start making skinpacks.... Im gonna need a trip to the Sanitarium.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 13, 2016, 12:22:12 pm
Well it's technically more than a reskin. New model, new animations, probably new barks. Same abilities and gear though, IIRC.
Same abilities and gear though, IIRC.
So...a junk class with nothing new to add. I really hope you're remembering incorrectly on that, because otherwise it sounds like a waste of dev time.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 13, 2016, 12:26:22 pm
My point exactly.Well it's technically more than a reskin. New model, new animations, probably new barks. Same abilities and gear though, IIRC.Same abilities and gear though, IIRC.
So...a junk class with nothing new to add. I really hope you're remembering incorrectly on that, because otherwise it sounds like a waste of dev time.
Post by: nenjin on January 13, 2016, 12:28:55 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 13, 2016, 12:42:53 pm
Post by: Yolan on January 17, 2016, 02:42:19 am
Post by: nenjin on January 17, 2016, 07:09:48 am
Post by: LordPorkins on January 17, 2016, 09:28:34 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on January 17, 2016, 06:25:01 pm
I mean, the Vestal isn't that great. They have an ability that heals 3 points of damage to everyone (useful if you're going against enemies whose DPS is mostly AoE), but I don't find their usual heal ability is enough to keep characters alive against enemies that focus on single targets.
The occultist has RNG heal, which can be 10 (yes please) or 0+bleed (NOPE), but still seems to work better for me on average.
So I find myself having maybe a two healers generally reduces your damage significantly though. Maybe occulist+vestal with some offensive abilities levelled up? This kind of precludes using some really neat classes that need the two back rows.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 17, 2016, 10:37:35 pm
Note that I haven't experimented with it very much, though. Might work out better with houndmaster/man-at-arms guarding, for instance.
Post by: kilakan on January 17, 2016, 11:35:08 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on January 18, 2016, 12:33:41 am
Post by: Bauglir on January 18, 2016, 02:59:24 am
Plus, Occultists can also use the Weakening Curse if everybody's already reasonably topped off, and that goes a long way toward preventing unexpected deaths. Nothing hits very hard at -80% damage.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 18, 2016, 08:02:29 am
Post by: Dohon on January 18, 2016, 05:47:32 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 18, 2016, 06:41:46 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 18, 2016, 07:17:27 pm
jk
But seriously how do you expect someone to NOT click on that link?
Post by: Bauglir on January 19, 2016, 03:06:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Really A Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So, I lost a full party of level 6s with a shitload of my best gear, but I ain't even too mad about it.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 19, 2016, 03:11:50 pm
((There needs to be a rap battle between Ancestor and Morgan Freeman. The Halo Announcer could referee.))
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2016, 11:10:39 am
Post by: Spehss _ on January 20, 2016, 07:10:22 pm
So what's the consensus on the game as released? Seems praise was less than unanimous during late Early Access. Also how finished is it? I know some games come out of EA with a ton of near future planned content on the way.I'd say it's pretty good. Balance is fine, I think, although early game can be rough due to heavy reliance on rng and rng loves to be a prick.
As far as content goes I think it's mostly finished. The only major thing that's missing is the final dungeon. The game is definitely in what I'd consider a playable state worth money. If you really want to play it, go for it. If you're not sure if you want to buy it, I suggest waiting for it go on sale at some point. I pretty much always recommend waiting for games to go on sale before buying, though. :v
Post by: Bauglir on January 20, 2016, 07:20:39 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on January 20, 2016, 08:37:58 pm
Post by: Bauglir on January 20, 2016, 08:57:51 pm
I dunno, you just need to optimize hardcore toward stress management and survival over brute offense and have a party that can function despite constant shuffling, at least from my one run. I might've pulled it off, if I'd bothered checking on the changes to camping skills (Man-at-Arms got a whole lot less incredible, but I didn't notice until I was already in camp and was wondering why I ran out of time midway through my usual routine).
Spoiler: Strategy (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on January 20, 2016, 09:50:17 pm
The final dungeon is in, man, that happened yesterday. Unless there's something I'm missing. There's still the Merchant class to be added, though.Aaaaaw snaaaaaap I didn't hear about that. I'll have to try it soon.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 02:30:40 pm
I've got two saved games right now, one is in week 54 and I've almost got a team of level 3s put together to start on the next tier of adventures.
My newest game that I started after release I'm at like week 20, I have five level 3s and I'm just waiting for the newest ones to recover, and I've only had five deaths so far, three of them on one mission.
Is the gamea lot easier now, or have I just incorporated all the lessons I learned from playing before?
Post by: ndkid on January 25, 2016, 02:38:25 pm
Started a new game since it's released. Does the game feel a lot easier to anybody else? I haven't played since before the Abomination release.
I've got two saved games right now, one is in week 54 and I've almost got a team of level 3s put together to start on the next tier of adventures.
My newest game that I started after release I'm at like week 20, I have five level 3s and I'm just waiting for the newest ones to recover, and I've only had five deaths so far, three of them on one mission.
Is the gamea lot easier now, or have I just incorporated all the lessons I learned from playing before?
I'm in the same position. I last played before corpses went in, and I heard about how much harder corpses made things, so I came into the release expecting to get beat up, but I haven't had a total party kill.
Granted, I went to go take on the Hag with a party of level 3s, and they got their butts handed to them (complete with one fatality) by an %adjective% giant in only their second battle, so it could just be that the difficulty curve is shaped differently now.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 02:40:00 pm
Plus the Darkest Dungeon is in now and I'm sure it's hell. I've actually never reached the second dungeon tier, so I'll be going in that completely blind.
EDIT: Just killed a shambler. Game definitely feels easier. I'm hoping they just tilted the difficulty curve.
Also I haven't had much trouble with corpses. There's lots of ways to clear them and as often as they hinder me they help me out by keeping enemies in the back ranks where I want them.
Post by: Anvilfolk on January 25, 2016, 04:13:28 pm
Also I haven't had much trouble with corpses. There's lots of ways to clear them and as often as they hinder me they help me out by keeping enemies in the back ranks where I want them.
Maybe they balanced, or maybe it's just people being averse to change, but I started playing it after corpses were in and have the same opinion. There's quite a few skills that remove them, the skills that move enemies around also help, and often having a corpse there can actually help when high-hitters are forced into the back and stay there.
The game does seem generally a bit easier. I think there were fewer negative traits, and perhaps more gold? Vestal's single-heal ability was buffed too, I think. It still feels like a hard experience (I've had to not complete missions a few times), but without being constantly terrible and leaving you feeling like there's no chance.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 04:33:20 pm
I dunno, we'll see what it looks like when I do my first tier 2 mission, which might be now actually. My new level 3s should be ready to go.
It might also be that I'm just accustomed to the crazy difficulty of the original. On release it was basically a less clever Tomb of Horrors, where every option is equally bad. It's steadily lightened up and now I kind of feel like it's too easy.
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2016, 05:39:34 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 05:54:04 pm
Post by: Bauglir on January 25, 2016, 06:13:26 pm
Frankly Tier 2 dungeons are where my "game's totally manageable now" illusions break down.My experience has been
Tier 1: Pretty straightforward, no real risks here unless you're asking for them
Tier 2: Challenging, but still little risk once you figure out a strategy and the local obstacles that might foul it up
Tier 3: Very difficult, always risky without cheese (and all single-player games should have cheese, this is a philosophy which I hold dear)
Darkest Dungeon: Fuck me for thinking I was prepared for this
Inhuman Bondage made it a lot worse for me because it skewed toward the excessive difficulty bit, but updates since have improved the game a lot for me and made it fall closer to the above progression. I think that's actually the ideal way to go, not for any great love of ease, but for a love of having options to deal with catastrophe. Better to let me make the most of a bad situation than force me to tolerate it because there's nothing I can do.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 25, 2016, 06:31:00 pm
(Anyone find that this fan base is curiously similar to Bondage Sex? The devs make things increasingly difficult and brutal, and we just writhe in nerd-ectasy yelling "more, MORE!". We appear to have some sort of extreme lust for punishment)
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 06:39:18 pm
Post by: Jopax on January 25, 2016, 07:11:18 pm
And now I also need to level up another Vestal, fucks sake.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 07:20:59 pm
Level 2 I'm a little warier about and level 3 is just not really worth losing.
Post by: Yolan on January 25, 2016, 10:36:49 pm
Something I'm not too happy about right now is that I have this weird situation due to level restrictions. I have a whole bunch of level 3 decent characters who suddenly aren't permitted to go on level 1 quests anymore, but get hammered really badly on level 3 quests. I have a decent roster of 11 characters, most of them are level 3, but everybody is slowly falling apart from the stress while before I was kicking ass.
The way to proceed is obviously to get a bunch of fresh blood in and use them to make money to heal up my higher tier guys I guess. But that feels stupid. It's kind of so annoying I'm thinking of just quitting DD and forgetting about the whole thing, even though I like the game overall. I just don't want to have to game their system in order to proceed.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 25, 2016, 11:02:44 pm
I think the low levels are always gonna be your main money-makers just for the simple fact that they're disposable. I don't see that as gaming the system. This is a game about hard choices and very vicious calculations. Look at all those bodies in the warrens. This thing has already killed thousands and thousands of people, a few dozen miscreants who volunteered for the job is a small price to pay to undo it.
Post by: lordcooper on January 25, 2016, 11:25:13 pm
Quote
a few dozen miscreants who volunteered for the job is a small price to pay
Says Cthulhu.
Post by: Bauglir on January 26, 2016, 01:08:28 am
probably not with any tentacled lip-smacking, though, so really there's a staggering degree of empathy on display hereQuotea few dozen miscreants who volunteered for the job is a small price to pay
Says Cthulhu.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 26, 2016, 01:11:35 am
There's also a man-at-arms trinket in the wagon right now that gives like 25% protection and 50% heals received as long as you're in the fourth slot. Actually sounds pretty tantalizing. Leper, Highwayman, Vestal, Man-at-arms. Use guard on the highwayman and bolster on the leper to boost his accuracy and be invincible.
Post by: Yolan on January 26, 2016, 01:25:48 am
Post by: Sirus on January 26, 2016, 02:12:08 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 26, 2016, 05:41:42 am
Something I'm not too happy about right now is that I have this weird situation due to level restrictions. I have a whole bunch of level 3 decent characters who suddenly aren't permitted to go on level 1 quests anymore, but get hammered really badly on level 3 quests. I have a decent roster of 11 characters, most of them are level 3, but everybody is slowly falling apart from the stress while before I was kicking ass.I (still) feel like the game would do a lot better with an xcom style system of escalating the difficulty of missions and having a loss condition. Its already got a Long War-esque system of fatigue built into it and one that makes a lot more sense at that.
The way to proceed is obviously to get a bunch of fresh blood in and use them to make money to heal up my higher tier guys I guess. But that feels stupid. It's kind of so annoying I'm thinking of just quitting DD and forgetting about the whole thing, even though I like the game overall. I just don't want to have to game their system in order to proceed.
Post by: Sindain on January 26, 2016, 09:09:00 am
So do lower level quests eventually become unavailable, regardless of if you have low ranking people in your party? Simply due to having done those dungeons so much?
No, AFAIK.
Post by: Jopax on January 26, 2016, 10:58:44 am
Unless you run into three fights in your walk to the first room of the dungeon. One of which is the fucking collector :V
Didn't lose anybody, but holy shit that took way too long and brought two folks at deaths door too. Still, the siren herself was kinda easy what with all the crits my Crusader was scoring.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 26, 2016, 12:45:36 pm
Collector's also not that hard. Kill the highwaymen first, they do a shitload of damage, but the rest don't really do anything.
Edit: While we're on the subject, does anyone know if there's any loss condition at all? The only way I can think of would be losing everybody on your first mission, before you have four per week stagecoach upgrades.
But would that actually lose the game? Is it even possible? Ir emember it makes you upgrade the stagecoach early on.
Overall I'm okay with the lack of a real fail state.
My biggest complaint right now is fucking crests.
Like, when I go to the warrens I expect to get portraits. I get that crests are needed for everything so you need a lot of them but the generation is really wonky right now. This current run of the warrens has gotten me one portrait and TWENTY crests.
Goodness, this post is getting out of hand. If you see a Guardian Shield take it. Man-at-Arms with Guardian SHield is basically invincible. Take him with a Leper for the accuracy boost on Command. Also the secret door thing is kind of dumb. It contains Collector drops, but all the heads are unique so once you have all three you can only get Puzzling Trapezohedrons. So it's basically a random chance for like 7500 gold, as if gold wasn't already a nonissue.
Post by: ragnar119 on January 26, 2016, 04:01:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-spazTn-4U
Post by: Jopax on January 26, 2016, 04:17:57 pm
Also one thing that I kinda noticed but can't really confirm for sure is that certain critters just love targeting your most stressed dude. It's really unnerving when your Vestal is hidden behind three guys and rather stressed out because you just had to douse that human skin with holy water and gets hit by those maggot bastards several times in a row, even when she's only doing healing and no attacking whatsoever.
Post by: Anvilfolk on January 26, 2016, 04:29:54 pm
WTF Is... - Darkest Dungeon ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-spazTn-4U
Holy crap, what a glowing review, but one I agree with. I find he echoed a lot of my sentiments. Early access people were annoyed because they'd found a way to basically exploit the game, and the developers countered that. Maybe that's what all the complaining about the game being made harder and harder and catering to the hardcore crowd were?
Post by: Neonivek on January 26, 2016, 04:31:20 pm
Often you get people who basically want you to make their game... and that isn't bad... but when they go against anything that even slightly hurts it.
Though I did say Toady shouldn't have made Goblins not need to eat.
Post by: Bauglir on January 26, 2016, 04:35:23 pm
Maybe that's what all the complaining about the game being made harder and harder and catering to the hardcore crowd were?No, I don't think so. I came in well after that addition, and I still have felt that way. I don't mind exploits being taken out, but there is a difference between that and arbitrarily reducing your odds of success.
There's probably a little from both. Which is one reason why I like the configurable stuff in the Options menu.
Post by: Boltgun on January 26, 2016, 05:09:19 pm
Maybe that's what all the complaining about the game being made harder and harder and catering to the hardcore crowd were?No, I don't think so. I came in well after that addition, and I still have felt that way. I don't mind exploits being taken out, but there is a difference between that and arbitrarily reducing your odds of success.
There's probably a little from both. Which is one reason why I like the configurable stuff in the Options menu.
I felt the same, removed a lot of options (lost a hero in a party at full health to 3 crits in one turn). I started micromanaging before embark, going through my roster to unequip trinkets and starting to slap rare ones on level 1s that I chose because of their quirks related to the area of the most common enemy, and wow the game stopped being hard. Seriously a button to remove all the trinkets from the heroes a la x-com would do a lot of good.
It's like the grind, the devs straight up gave the tactic to level up a hero in one go, but giving the tip ingame would have helped.
I'm still hitting a brick wall where the level 3s cannot do a thing because of the lack of upgrades but at least I can challenge the first bosses.
Honestly I think most of the complaints is because they had a beta during early access and suddenly it changed. If it stayed the same, they'd cry that the devs abandoned the game the exploits are not fixed and yada yada. That's why I would never use early access to release a game, and I sure as hell won't use steam for that, it's a terrible community.
Post by: Bauglir on January 26, 2016, 09:11:26 pm
Also, pro tip: fight bosses at the maximum level the game will let you. So Level 2 for Tier 1, Level 4 for Tier 2. Tier 3 doesn't matter so much since there are no upgrades to be purchased at level 6, but IIRC you still get a bit of an edge in resistances and so might as well wait.
Also, think about party composition. My rule of thumb is to always have 1 healer, 1 "support" character, and 1 brute force attacker. Last one is a wild card, filled with whoever's convenient or happens to work nicely with the rest. Support, for me, means a character that enhances others but isn't great alone - a Plague Doctor setting Blight or Stun, or a Man-at-Arms providing buffs, or a Houndmaster managing group stress or setting bleed as situations call for it. They tend to fit well into any party, but some cute synergies can be useful (a Man-at-Arms can use Rampart to stun things while pushing a Crusader back far enough to use Holy Lance, for example). Try to make sure at least one, preferably two, have access to a self-moving ability to help keep you from spending a ton of dead turns if folks get pushed around.
I really like what Early Access has done for the game, actually. I've got a sense that many games use it as a means to charge for an unfinished product, but in this case they've used it effectively as a mechanism for getting feedback as development proceeds.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 26, 2016, 09:44:32 pm
Seriously a button to remove all the trinkets from the heroes a la x-com would do a lot of good.This is a thing actually, as of the holiday update or the human bondage update. It's a button in the trinkets "chest" menu.
Spoiler: party composition discussion (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on January 26, 2016, 10:01:55 pm
Spoiler: Party composition (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cthulhu on January 26, 2016, 10:18:57 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 26, 2016, 10:23:05 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 27, 2016, 12:02:40 am
I just did a tier 2 with Abomination, Jester, Plague Doctor, and Occultist. It didn't occur to me that abomination can't do anything in front row without transforming and that Jester doesn't have a lot of options in second row if the 2 and 3 slots are empty.
Overall though I'm liking Tier 2. It feels more like what older Tier 1 was like when the difficulty was at its best. It's tough but not crushingly so, and the investment needed for level 3 characters makes things more interesting too. Not to mention the new monsters. Don't want to spoil but there's lots of oh shit moments when you move into tier 2. Some disappointing, some pretty fucking scary.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on January 27, 2016, 12:17:15 am
You can't even build a party based around it like you can for bossfights, since there is no indication that it will show up and even scouting seemingly doesn't reveal it. Does it just randomly show up in order to wipe parties?
RIP Man-at-arms, duelist Highwayman, Bloody-Herb PlagueDoc, and Vestal.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 27, 2016, 12:23:03 am
He only has four possible drops, and three of them are unique, so once you've killed him a couple times he's basically just a gold dispenser. The fourth item is 2500 gold.
Post by: Sirus on January 27, 2016, 12:28:26 am
Post by: Bauglir on January 27, 2016, 01:38:25 am
I don't bother killing any of the minions, even Highwaymen, until the Collector is dead. The only exception is Men-at-Arms, if I don't have a stunner available.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 27, 2016, 08:08:21 am
Post by: ndkid on January 27, 2016, 12:50:07 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 27, 2016, 01:07:28 pm
Post by: Bauglir on January 27, 2016, 02:20:05 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 27, 2016, 02:22:07 pm
Post by: Sindain on January 27, 2016, 02:34:50 pm
I think equipment just effects how much damage the initial hit does, if any.
This is correct. DoT damage is entirely based on ability level.
Post by: Bauglir on January 27, 2016, 02:38:28 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 27, 2016, 02:41:52 pm
Post by: Jopax on January 27, 2016, 03:33:19 pm
And even if you do forgo weapon upgrades, armor is still a must, not only for the protection improvements but for the speed boost too. Getting off the first hit is incredibly important, especially higher on.
Which brings me to another thing, how fucking bullshit veteran is with suprising your party. Basically, it can happen at full torch, and has happened several times to me, now, if I was doing a dark run and risking it I'd be fine, but no, this is a full light run because I really hate losing my higher level people, and so far, I have not completed a single veteran run without losing at least one person. And it's the same bullshit every time, either they suprise me at full torch so I waste turns reshuffling my frontliners into place or they just keep wailing on the same poor sod way beyond the capabilities of my healers.
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2016, 04:09:08 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 27, 2016, 04:16:05 pm
I hate surprise for that reason. A free turn against your party would be PLENTY, but no, you get an entire turn of wasted reshuffle actions on top of it. I love it when when my healers get moved to the front and then are cut down by monsters like they're freaking weed whackers. There's pretty much nothing you can do in that situation except grin and bear and say "oh how much fun this hardcore bullshit is."
Yeah I'll admit it, it bugs me too. Especially since it isn't uncommon either.
Where most games make the "annoying enemy" uncommon. Darkest Dungeon is where every enemy is the annoying enemy. :P
---
Which honestly isn't so bad... but I am kind of disappointed with how much it limits what teams are viable BECAUSE you have to plan against those strategies.
As well enemies aren't able to be disrupted as much as I think they should be either. I feel like they should be on par with your characters in terms of being reliant on their placement... but it is rare I see an enemy become anything but "just as good" no matter where they are.
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2016, 04:29:10 pm
But they couldn't square the desired difficulty with multiple party makeups. For just about any group to survive, the game ended up being too exploitable by pros.
Post by: Spehss _ on January 27, 2016, 06:10:14 pm
I just got a TPK against the Hag with a Lv 3 party... I think my not bringing bleed was my downfall. Still, I am finding the Veteran levels more challenging than the early levels, so I do think they just adjusted the difficulty curve.The couple of times I've tried beating veteran level bosses, I barely got by with a party of lv3s. I think for bosses you'll want to be slightly higher leveled and better equipped than the bare minimum. Like, 3 is the minimum to reliably go on veteran level quests. So level 4 or 5 (if that level can go on veteran level missions) would be a safer bet for veteran boss fights than lvl3.
I just barely beat the veteran necromancer with a party of lvl3 that beat the novice necromancer easily. Prophet was too tough for that same party and I had to retreat.
Post by: Elfeater on January 27, 2016, 10:21:53 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 28, 2016, 12:39:24 am
The biggest challenge of veteran so far is getting a good synergistic party when there's so few level 3s available and it takes so long to level them up. The religious restriction on abomination is killer, I haven't used mine in forever.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 29, 2016, 11:17:22 pm
Fuck my life.
I also lost three dudes to the brigand 12 pounder and didn't even kill it. That fucking hurts. Watteau, Papon, that other guy, I can never fucking replace you.
Post by: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 11:20:12 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2016, 12:15:52 am
Post by: Spehss _ on January 30, 2016, 12:23:01 am
I've found the veteran bosses pretty easy. The necromancer was tough mainly because I only had two DPS and one was crusader so he rarely had a chance to attack.My primary source of dps in the veteran necromancer fight was actually 2 crusaders (for the bonus damage against unholy) using holy lance, smite, and zealous accusation. Had a vestal for healing, and a jester for support to keep everyone's speed and crit chance up. Everyone was lvl3 with lvl3 gear.
It worked well until the necromancer raised two skeletons in one turn, at which point I was unable to keep the necromancer alone at the end of each turn, and damage began piling on from the skeletons getting to attack. In retrospect I think a plague doctor instead of a jester would've been better for regular damage over time against crowds.
It makes the shovel slightly less stupid, it no longer feels as much like a tax on you for not buying a shovel every game, but still.Man, fuck walls. Most annoying feature of the game, either bring 3 or 4 shovels or have rng throw tons of walls at you, forcing you to either go around or more often than not have to take the stress damage because you just so happen to have to go through that blocked passage to clear the mission.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2016, 12:30:37 am
I didn't test to see hwo reinforcements work, if it summons in groups or just the one, but either way it's basically hit the lighter every single time or die.
Post by: Bauglir on January 30, 2016, 01:03:37 am
Shovels can be annoying, but on the plus side if you find you're not seeing many walls, there are often curios you can use them on to prevent them from hurting you. Graves in the Weald are a favorite - often jam-packed with loot.
Post by: LordPorkins on January 30, 2016, 09:40:52 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 30, 2016, 10:16:16 pm
Did you know that you have to click the shovel in the cave-in screen to use it? And if you use it, it consumes the shovel to clear the block with no penalty?Hahahaha, I did this forever. I knew something was amiss because he kept explaining that "Without tools of iron, you must rely on flesh and indefatigable purpose," but I had tools of iron and so couldn't figure out the problem.
Fuck my life.
I too was pissed.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2016, 10:56:38 pm
It summons the whole group. So, yeah, kill the lighter every turn. Make sure you kill it before it gets a turn after the Cannon dies, too - it's got a nasty attack.
Shovels can be annoying, but on the plus side if you find you're not seeing many walls, there are often curios you can use them on to prevent them from hurting you. Graves in the Weald are a favorite - often jam-packed with loot.
are you fucking serious
Post by: Biowraith on January 31, 2016, 02:41:27 am
On shovels, for treasure purposes they're great in the Cove, there's two grave-equivalents there and they spawn pretty often. Barricades seem comparatively rare in Cove too (but that might just be rng at work).
Post by: Aoi on January 31, 2016, 05:53:31 am
Shovels can be annoying, but on the plus side if you find you're not seeing many walls, there are often curios you can use them on to prevent them from hurting you. Graves in the Weald are a favorite - often jam-packed with loot.
So I was just wondering how did people not realize that you can use the shovel to clear walls for free... then my mind is blown at the concept of being able to dig up a grave. Learn something new every day!
Post by: Jopax on January 31, 2016, 08:25:19 am
Post by: LordPorkins on January 31, 2016, 09:53:36 am
Post by: Anvilfolk on February 01, 2016, 10:10:28 pm
Sorry, just needed to come complain. Last fight in a "clear all room fights" run had a freaking gigantic boar spear dude who critted me repeatedly. Could've handled almost anything else the dungeon could've thrown at me. My occultist repeatedly healed between 0-4 and caused bleed. Which is especially dangerous when everybody's at death's door. Highwayman constantly got displaced to the front, where he repeatedly missed only attack he could do - the bleed one.
Eventually I was down to highwayman and occultist, which couldn't do anything because he was in the 2nd place from the front. Then the highwayman died the turn before the bleed effect would've taken down the very last enemy.
Post by: Sirus on February 01, 2016, 11:21:24 pm
Some pretty painful moments to be found.
Post by: Zangi on February 01, 2016, 11:39:30 pm
How do people not know?It summons the whole group. So, yeah, kill the lighter every turn. Make sure you kill it before it gets a turn after the Cannon dies, too - it's got a nasty attack.
Shovels can be annoying, but on the plus side if you find you're not seeing many walls, there are often curios you can use them on to prevent them from hurting you. Graves in the Weald are a favorite - often jam-packed with loot.
are you fucking serious
You can use various items, like the medicinal herbs(or was it antivenom?) on piles of meat in the blight dungeon. Holy water on unholy/corrupted looking things
I havn't loaded this game up in a long time...
Post by: Boltgun on February 02, 2016, 04:38:14 am
Also my last runs were quite successful, I'll soon break the brick wall that are veteran runs.
Who want to be named? Zangi's grave robber is still alive.
Post by: miljan on February 02, 2016, 08:57:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sonlirain on February 02, 2016, 09:26:15 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Boltgun on February 02, 2016, 09:35:16 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 02, 2016, 10:28:30 am
The XP required to level has been reduced in the last update. A lot.
And now I'm that much closer to purchasing. So far all I've read and seen imply I would enjoy the game quite a bit if it weren't for the grind. I'm still a bit suspicious due to no loss condition, since I quite enjoy unmodded XCOM/FTL/Invisible Inc style campaigns where I can win or lose in a reasonable amount of time and then start over again.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2016, 10:31:24 am
How do people not know?It summons the whole group. So, yeah, kill the lighter every turn. Make sure you kill it before it gets a turn after the Cannon dies, too - it's got a nasty attack.
Shovels can be annoying, but on the plus side if you find you're not seeing many walls, there are often curios you can use them on to prevent them from hurting you. Graves in the Weald are a favorite - often jam-packed with loot.
are you fucking serious
You can use various items, like the medicinal herbs(or was it antivenom?) on piles of meat in the blight dungeon. Holy water on unholy/corrupted looking thingsand bookcases.Bandages on sharp-ish looking things.
I havn't loaded this game up in a long time...
I know all that, I just didn't know all of them because some aren't very intuitive. I had no idea shovels could be used the same way, or the bookcases, or bandages.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 02, 2016, 10:38:30 am
Anyway, i LOVE the new quotes. I had a bounty hunter once say: "Its like that time in the weald.... except without all the spiders." I burst out laughing. Also
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: miljan on February 02, 2016, 11:11:06 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 11:47:41 am
The devs must be former Blizzard employees...they always liked to force the player to grind in WoW. :D
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 02, 2016, 12:18:54 pm
Not that I necessarily agree with it.
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2016, 12:42:57 pm
I really hope modding is possible for the game. There are so many design decisions, so many pointless hardcore restrictions, that actively diminish my enjoyment of the game.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2016, 12:47:50 pm
Fucking bullshit, dude. Lost a level 6 occultist.
It was going so well up to that point too. I've still only managed to win a single short champion run, really not sure how the hell I'm supposed to do these considering everything's stats are all up to fuck and they crit every turn for 30 damage.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 02, 2016, 12:52:01 pm
Post by: Simon on February 02, 2016, 12:55:48 pm
That being said, it's a shame that the core of gameplay relies on you being able to withstand grind and punishment thrown at you in big fuck-you chunks. I enjoy a challenge, but I guess I've never realized that some PC games are a masochist's domain.
THAT being said, I've had my third team exterminated. I'm going back in. I'm gonna DO this motherfucker.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 02, 2016, 12:57:19 pm
Post by: miljan on February 02, 2016, 01:45:51 pm
Seems in keeping with their "No you play the game our way" philosophy.
I really hope modding is possible for the game. There are so many design decisions, so many pointless hardcore restrictions, that actively diminish my enjoyment of the game.
A moder looked at it to see if they can change the limit, but it looks like it's hard coded in the game. This is the only real problem I have with the game, and most of the changes (corpses, stun and similar) made the game better.
Post by: lordcooper on February 02, 2016, 01:51:56 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2016, 01:54:49 pm
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 02:10:12 pm
1/10
Transformers 4.
Post by: lordcooper on February 02, 2016, 03:05:05 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2016, 03:42:13 pm
Post by: Sonlirain on February 02, 2016, 03:49:45 pm
I don't like how enemy attacks do damage to my guys. Stress has got to go too.
Stress can stay. The stress afflictions should go tho. Heroes with high stress should always get virtues instead.
Post by: lordcooper on February 02, 2016, 04:06:28 pm
Remove lordcooper.
rude
Post by: Simon on February 02, 2016, 04:10:01 pm
Stress, in itself, is a great idea.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2016, 08:28:19 pm
Killed him immediately after his second collect call, didn't eat a single headhunt.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 02, 2016, 10:20:00 pm
Anyway, i LOVE the new quotes. I had a bounty hunter once say: "Its like that time in the weald.... except without all the spiders." I burst out laughing.
One mission I had in the weald, I found 3 beast corpses early on that I looted for 3 stacks of 12 food each. I already had brought 1 stack of 12 food for the sake of the medium length mission. 48 units of food in one mission. During camp my plague doctor commented "Who packed all this food? I could kiss you!"
Got a good chuckle out of me.
So, everyone, whos your favorite class? Mines bounty hunters. Decent dodge, great accuracy, they can knockback, stun, and bleed, and they have a greater damage output then a leper usually.Abomination is probably my favorite. Good utility, good damage, pretty badass design in beast form, fun risk/reward aspect and requires some different party planning to get around the "no vestal or crusaders w/ abominations" restriction.
Post by: Anvilfolk on February 02, 2016, 11:40:16 pm
I've also tried a couple of runs without healers. They are... so far, surprisingly successful. Though, to be fair, I'm trying mostly tier 1 stuff still :P
Post by: umiman on February 02, 2016, 11:49:32 pm
I managed to get through all the first round of bosses and 12 guys to level 3 without even losing a single person. Was like, "meh, did they make it easier?". I took another group of low levels out to grind them some more when I saw some kind of funny stick with an orb in it that asked me to put a torch in it. I went, "K" and put a torch in it.
Only my leper survived that encounter and I was sweating balls.
Another moment was when I was using another group of lowbies to fight the cannon boss. No big deal again all the way to the end. No damage, no stress, large pile of loot, no problems. Judging by the other bosses this one would also have some kind of cheap gimmick but otherwise a cakewalk. Saw the cannon. Was like "meh." KABOOOOOOM! Retreat out of battle.
Quote
Hellion: "Alright bros, status check. I'm at 2hp."
Grave Robber: "Same."
Jester: "I'm on death's door."
Arbalest: "I think my pancreas is in my eyeball."
So yeah, that was pretty fun.
The Prophet was pretty amusing too, in a "fuck you and all you stand for" kind of way.
That being said, my core team of the four guys you literally start with seem to be invincible. It's like it gets way more easy at high levels. I'm also kinda annoyed I'm forced to use all these low tier shitstains because my other guys are too high level for these bosses.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2016, 04:31:19 am
But level 5 guard dog adds 25 dodge. My houndmaster with blue-tier armor and the +12 dodge trinket had base 37 dodge. With two guard dog buffs that's effectively 87 dodge on half your team. Nothing hits him. He's the ultimate tank.
So I've been taking him second row, since the first two rows take most hits. Guard the front row if it's needed, or whoever's marked, or whoever you think they'll attack. Nothing will ever hit him. Hound's Rush also gets really strong later on, and the prot debuff on his mark is great.
EDIT: Just did the first darkest dungeon.
Spoiler: In case you want it spoiled (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on February 03, 2016, 09:30:32 am
People talking about the bounty hunter reminded me that I really want to try a party that does extra damage to marked enemies. I usually shy away from those, because it requires wasting a turn to get the mark out... but dayum, that bounty hunter has a +90% damage to marked target! The houndmaster gets buffs, and the arbalest too?A mark party works pretty well. I took an arbalest, houndmaster, and two bounty hunters on a lvl1 weald mission once. Houndmaster typically did the marking, bounty hunters hit things until they died, and arbalest either healed or shot things until they died. Typically houndmaster went first every turn, so he got to mark things and the other party members could attack the marked target in the same turn.
I've also tried a couple of runs without healers. They are... so far, surprisingly successful. Though, to be fair, I'm trying mostly tier 1 stuff still :P
This party would likely work well in the warrens too, since lots of pig dudes are either beast, human, or both, and bounty hunters gain damage against human targets, while houndmaster gains damage on beast targets. I think the party lacks aoe a bit aside from houndmaster's aoe bleed attack, but makes up for it with lots of passive bonus damage against certain targets.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 03, 2016, 09:40:04 am
Jester: "HEEEHEEEHEEEHEEEE-
Bounty Hunter: "SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH"
Jester: "Every rose has its thorn teeheeheehee!"
Bounty Hunter: "Thats it, im done!"
*Jester has been Critically hit by Bounty Hunter!*
*Bounty hunter has relieved 20 stress!*
Post by: Zangi on February 03, 2016, 10:24:58 am
Post by: LordPorkins on February 03, 2016, 10:32:32 am
Post by: Kruniac on February 03, 2016, 10:37:58 am
I don't like how enemy attacks do damage to my guys. Stress has got to go too.
So the thing with that is that stress and trauma are the entire points of the game. It's literally what is advertised about this game, and is the core mechanic/atmospheric aspect of the game.
You might have better luck playing another game. DD without stress is basically a crappy little mobile game or something, and that isn't fair to everyone else playing it who enjoys the stress/trauma mechanics.
Post by: umiman on February 03, 2016, 10:47:03 am
That's sarcasm, mate.I don't like how enemy attacks do damage to my guys. Stress has got to go too.
So the thing with that is that stress and trauma are the entire points of the game. It's literally what is advertised about this game, and is the core mechanic/atmospheric aspect of the game.
You might have better luck playing another game. DD without stress is basically a crappy little mobile game or something, and that isn't fair to everyone else playing it who enjoys the stress/trauma mechanics.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 03, 2016, 11:23:27 am
Post by: gimli on February 03, 2016, 12:12:05 pm
I renamed him. He lives [and dies soon I suppose] under the name "Ivan" from now on.
Post by: Zangi on February 03, 2016, 12:26:54 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 03, 2016, 12:48:11 pm
That'sI don't like how enemy attacks do damage to my guys. Stress has got to go too.
So the thing with that is that stress and trauma are the entire points of the game. It's literally what is advertised about this game, and is the core mechanic/atmospheric aspect of the game.
You might have better luck playing another game. DD without stress is basically a crappy little mobile game or something, and that isn't fair to everyone else playing it who enjoys the stress/trauma mechanics.sarcasmshitposting, mate.
Post by: Boltgun on February 03, 2016, 04:09:51 pm
I just gave the game a try. Week 3. My highwayman became an alcoholic. Nice. :o
I renamed him. He lives [and dies soon I suppose] under the name "Ivan" from now on.
I renamed Dismas back to his original name when I realized that there is an achievement for keeping him alive along with Reynauld until the last mission.
Speaking of him, I found his head in a secret room, I'll give it to him for the next run. Monsters, meet Dismas, and his head, and his head.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 03, 2016, 04:49:18 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2016, 06:54:10 pm
I just gave the game a try. Week 3. My highwayman became an alcoholic. Nice. :o
I renamed him. He lives [and dies soon I suppose] under the name "Ivan" from now on.
I renamed Dismas back to his original name when I realized that there is an achievement for keeping him alive along with Reynauld until the last mission.
Speaking of him, I found his head in a secret room, I'll give it to him for the next run. Monsters, meet Dismas, and his head, and his head.
I got all three heads.
Actually, I think I probably lost at least one of them when my darkest dungeon run went south, but it's okay because I don't think i'm going to play anymore. Plus it'll be easy to get it back even if I do play again.
Post by: Sindain on February 03, 2016, 06:56:23 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2016, 06:57:33 pm
Post by: Boltgun on February 04, 2016, 09:29:02 am
Killed him.
:P
Post by: LordPorkins on February 04, 2016, 09:54:49 am
Post by: Mephansteras on February 04, 2016, 05:51:45 pm
But so far I've only had a few deaths (mostly due to some bad luck and a terrible lvl 0 who went hopeless and ruined an entire run. I've killed off a few bosses already and almost have my first level 3 team ready to go.
Post by: Jopax on February 04, 2016, 06:26:28 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 04, 2016, 06:40:36 pm
*lone survivor staggers back, haunted look in her eyes*
"Oh good, nobody was hurt"
*skeleton stabs your vestal in the wrist*
"ABBEY NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Post by: Bauglir on February 04, 2016, 07:49:39 pm
Started this up again a few days ago after a long haitus to give me something to do until XCOM2 unlocks. Hadn't played all that far in before, and that was long before the Cove got added. The early game seems a lot easier this time around. Not sure if that's due to a bit more familiarity on my part or if they actually made it easier.One impression I've got is that low levels have gotten a lot less dangerous and risky, but high levels are as brutal as anything, to the point that it's kinda bullshit.
But so far I've only had a few deaths (mostly due to some bad luck and a terrible lvl 0 who went hopeless and ruined an entire run. I've killed off a few bosses already and almost have my first level 3 team ready to go.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 04, 2016, 08:43:45 pm
Ive done similar things. Dark runs can make compelte scrubs gods or turn them into finely ground meat
Does it? I mean the challenge of the mission doesn't really influence their development. A guy who levels up on dark runs isn't going to be any stronger than a guy who levels up on regular runs. In fact considering the stress and diseases and afflictions, he's almost definitely gonna end up worse.
More stats, and more variable stats, would lead to a natural selection situation which would make dark runs more productive of high-power characters. In Old XCOM I put my recruits through the wringer, ensuring the guys with better natural stat setups were the ones who got through and became real team members.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 04, 2016, 10:38:54 pm
Also, damn I love Grave Robbers. Fragile, but by far my most reliable damage characters for pretty much any range. And I picked up a nice green trinket for them early on that has +40% Blight and a few other things. Really makes those darts a reliable source of blight on most monsters, which has proven quite handy.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 05, 2016, 01:16:49 am
Thanks, alcohol.
Post by: Jopax on February 05, 2016, 06:00:00 am
Also had my second fight with the collector, only got that big jewel thing which you sell for mad cash :C
But he went down much quicker this time around, stuns and bleeds all around make for fun times :D
Post by: Ghazkull on February 05, 2016, 06:33:57 am
Azim Fleshmender has seen some shit down there...on his triple and quadruple shifts.
The problem is training up new occultists (yeah i know i could use vestals as dedicated healers/long range artillery instead but i don't trust religious nutjobs who never pray but instead do unspeakable things in the taverns...in fact...i think my vestals are of a slaaneshi cult).
I tried doing dark runs as told above, the result was everyone making it...except for my occultists...thanks for that advice XD
anyway what do you guys think, would an all occultist team be something viable? i mean they have awesome heals, abyssal artillery by two of them at once takes care of most of the backrow enemies and knife attacks and that eldritch first row thing seems to do decent amounts of damage, couple that with all the debuffs they could dish out and it seems like four of htem would make a solid team...or am i completely overlooking something here?
Post by: Jopax on February 05, 2016, 06:52:19 am
I've personally run two houndmasters recently, and while it didn't go as well as I had hoped it was pretty nice with one marking and the other murdering, bonus points because I also had an arbalest for those 20 damage snipes :D
Post by: LordPorkins on February 05, 2016, 08:34:13 am
Ive done similar things. Dark runs can make compelte scrubs gods or turn them into finely ground meat
Does it? I mean the challenge of the mission doesn't really influence their development. A guy who levels up on dark runs isn't going to be any stronger than a guy who levels up on regular runs. In fact considering the stress and diseases and afflictions, he's almost definitely gonna end up worse.
More stats, and more variable stats, would lead to a natural selection situation which would make dark runs more productive of high-power characters. In Old XCOM I put my recruits through the wringer, ensuring the guys with better natural stat setups were the ones who got through and became real team members.
What i meant was the increased crits can work heavily in your favor....if the gods of RNG decide to not be dicks. Otherwise everyone gets stressed and decimated
Post by: gimli on February 05, 2016, 09:10:33 am
A plague doctor blacked out duringhisher week in the tavern and "misplaced" my only sacred scroll trinket. That trinket lets vestals' heal skills heal 33% more hp
Thanks, alcohol.
:D
Post by: Spehss _ on February 05, 2016, 10:24:55 am
Went on to loot the whole dungeon after camping, got 16,000 gold out of it and minimum stress from it. Which is great, I was pretty low on gold for a while due to several missions I had to bail out of (veteran prohpet and novice sodden crew) costing me tons of gold on stress reduction while not giving much gold.
Week 40, all the novice bosses beaten except the sodden crew. Think I'm doing pretty gud.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 05, 2016, 10:49:28 am
Post by: Mephansteras on February 05, 2016, 10:51:47 am
Post by: Bauglir on February 05, 2016, 11:12:38 am
Wait, they can misplace stuff that they don't have equipped? I thought they could only lose shit they have on them, which is why I started stripping everyone of everything the moment they come back to town :VIIRC, they lose stuff they have equipped first, and if they've got nothing on them they lose stuff in inventory. I basically don't use the tavern anymore.
Post by: nenjin on February 05, 2016, 11:19:47 am
For some reason the game runs REEAALLY slow now :(
I've been noticing considerable lag in some of the combat animations frames, but otherwise the rest of the game runs well.
Also when did guys in town start healing a little stress per week? That change alone is a huge boon, and contributes to the early game feeling a little easier.
Post by: Sindain on February 05, 2016, 11:24:31 am
Also when did guys in town start healing a little stress per week? That change alone is a huge boon, and contributes to the early game feeling a little easier.
It's been in for a couple patches. I wanna say it came in with the abomination patch, but don't quote me on that.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 05, 2016, 11:26:12 am
Post by: Zangi on February 05, 2016, 11:29:45 am
I kinda want to try a team of four Grave Robbers stacked with Dodge boosting trinkets to see how well that would fare.RNGesus downvotes this idea.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 05, 2016, 11:56:51 am
I kinda want to try a team of four Grave Robbers stacked with Dodge boosting trinkets to see how well that would fare.RNGesus downvotes this idea.
I never said it was a good idea, I just said I want to try it. :P
Post by: gimli on February 05, 2016, 12:30:44 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 05, 2016, 12:34:30 pm
F*ck. I was forced to flee from the collector fight, because 3 chars in my party had like 10% HP left. I almost won, but he resisted 2 stuns in a row and re-summoned his minions...talk about bad luck. :oBetter to have to retreat with 3 guys at 10% hp than to have to retreat with 3 guys dead.
Post by: nenjin on February 05, 2016, 12:35:23 pm
And for my troubles, I get some stupid Trapehdron or whatever.
Post by: Bauglir on February 05, 2016, 12:35:39 pm
Dodge abuse can definitely be effective. I tried it with Man-at-Arms and got extremely good results. Pretty much only lost to frequent party-shuffling, which fucked all my contingencies for dealing with people actually getting hit. Seems to fall off in the Darkest Dungeon itself, though - enemy hit rates seem jacked to a ridiculous degree. 90+ Dodge did avoid a moderate number of hits, but hit rate was still a good deal higher than the 10% minimum.I kinda want to try a team of four Grave Robbers stacked with Dodge boosting trinkets to see how well that would fare.RNGesus downvotes this idea.
I never said it was a good idea, I just said I want to try it. :P
Post by: Cthulhu on February 05, 2016, 01:02:38 pm
The graverobber shuffle is pretty sweet, though I think 3 is more than enough to do it. As I mentioned before, houndmaster's dodge can get ridiculous at high ranks and since he can guard that effectively makes half your team invulnerable to most basic attacks.
Post by: Sirus on February 05, 2016, 01:09:11 pm
Post by: gimli on February 05, 2016, 02:23:19 pm
Does the Collector stick around after you retreat, forcing you to either find another route or give up the quest?
It's a random encounter, so yeah...he is gone.
Also...what happens when I am short of gold? "Tavern: Vane lost 500 gold after becoming tipsy and buying a round for the house." Oh and one more event happend on the same week: My occultist -who is a gambler- managed to get the "bad gambler" quirk. ::)
Seriously? This game is trying to annoy me. :D
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 05, 2016, 02:36:43 pm
PD: welp, seems auto-fixed after updating the drivers ???
Post by: Bauglir on February 05, 2016, 04:17:22 pm
Also, apparently there are special trinkets you get for beating the Champion level bosses. They weren't in the Early Access version, so if I want them I'd need to start over. And some are quite nice. Too bad I'll never see them! Because fuck that.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 05, 2016, 07:21:23 pm
Post by: Jopax on February 05, 2016, 07:31:11 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 05, 2016, 08:52:42 pm
But if you're gonna do that you'll be sacrificing one or two sources of potential damage/cc which is way too much imho. Having one dedicated support is ok, but I think two is way too big of a hit on your damage output which is a must if you want to survive. Because killing them before they can hit you is better than dodging or absorbing their hits.?
I was talking about trinket loadouts. A single trinket giving protection to a character with already good dodge chance seems better than just adding more dodge.
So anyway, do heroes lose experience over time? I had a couple of crusaders at level 4 who have dropped down to the high 3s. They've been inactive for a few weeks while I was taking other groups out on missions.
Post by: Jopax on February 06, 2016, 06:54:37 am
Anyways, had a dark run in the cove, was doing really well, took barely any damage, had some nice loot. Then, on my way to the last room I run into the fucking shambler, my first encounter with the bugger so I have no idea what it does. Party got nearly wiped there and ended up super stressed, think only my Plague doctor survived without stupidly high stress and low hp :C
Post by: kulik on February 06, 2016, 07:06:01 am
I would like to see alien game in which it, statistically, takes several of your men to actually kill a single alien. I reckon the gameplay would suck due to the fact that there would be virtually no leveling of your men and I have no idea how to balance the overall experience to be enjoyable, but I've been pondering the concept for quite some time now and find it appealing.
Post by: gimli on February 06, 2016, 09:36:26 am
One thing that makes me wonder in all the X-com games, even the original from the 90's, and the Xenonauts, is how weak the aliens actually are, your soldiers are real menace to them each scoring dozens of kills throughout the game.
I would like to see alien game in which it, statistically, takes several of your men to actually kill a single alien. I reckon the gameplay would suck due to the fact that there would be virtually no leveling of your men and I have no idea how to balance the overall experience to be enjoyable, but I've been pondering the concept for quite some time now and find it appealing.
Wrong topic. :D
Post by: Spehss _ on February 06, 2016, 01:12:34 pm
Anyways, had a dark run in the cove, was doing really well, took barely any damage, had some nice loot. Then, on my way to the last room I run into the fucking shambler, my first encounter with the bugger so I have no idea what it does. Party got nearly wiped there and ended up super stressed, think only my Plague doctor survived without stupidly high stress and low hp :CI thought the shambler could only be encountered if you run into that shrine that says "you should sacrifice a torch to seal your doom" or something.
Every time I encounter that shrine I just ignore it. :P
So I think if heroes have stress at the end of a week, they lose some of that stress at the cost of some of their experience. Either that or heroes passively lose experience each week of inactivity. I'm seeing noticeable declines in my inactive teams. Two crusaders who were lvl 4 are lvl 3, plague doctor who was lvl 3 is now lvl 2, etc. I can't just be imagining this.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 06, 2016, 01:28:54 pm
You're not using an old save are you? sometimes quirky things happen...
Post by: Spehss _ on February 06, 2016, 02:12:03 pm
You're not using an old save are you? sometimes quirky things happen...That could be it. I've been using the same save since before the human bondage early access update.
Post by: nenjin on February 06, 2016, 06:43:16 pm
All in all though I do think they made the early game easier. It's hard to put my finger on what exactly makes it seem this way because the randomlol crits are still there. But maybe it's the additional gold you get back, the little bit of stress knocked off each week and a couple other things.
Post by: Bauglir on February 06, 2016, 07:50:15 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 07, 2016, 03:26:10 am
Later on though the crusader will take hits for days and the highwayman'll crit for 30+ damage. It's the same on the other side. Early on everything's kind of samey cause stats are too low for much differentiation, but by tier 3 those skeleton defenders'll have a ton of prot but their damage'll still be on the low side, while the swordsmen'll be made of paper but crit almost every attack.
The further you go, the more dramatic units' strengths and weaknesses become.
Post by: gimli on February 07, 2016, 10:48:11 am
PS.
Am I the only one who always brings an Occultist with the party? Their utility + heals are excellent.
PPS.
I start to think that the Man-at-Arms class is decent. I have 2 OP trinkets on my main MaA, and he can tank everything so easily now, but my party is level 3 only.
Post by: Retropunch on February 07, 2016, 11:48:06 am
Whilst I did just get completely obliterated in a really, really bad spree of bad luck, I feel that I could prepare for it better next time rather than before when I just sorta went 'that was unfair' and stopped playing. I like all the customization and extra classes, as well as that they've upped the gold/heirlooms enough for me to actually make some decisions rather than just being in constant poverty.
Definitely gone from a 6/10 to a 8/10 in my book.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 07, 2016, 12:19:58 pm
Post by: Boltgun on February 07, 2016, 01:46:48 pm
Yeah. TBH the biggest turn-off before was the near-constant state of bankrupcy. which led to suicide grinding.
Stacking a few scouting chance buffs to find secret rooms turned the finances around for me. And to top it off, I just read a word from the devs you cannot be surprised from battles that has been scouted first.
In fact this is getting less and less RNG every time you remember how to counter (buff scouting, keep 4 food + 1 shovel at all times, never specialize your chars...).
Post by: miljan on February 07, 2016, 02:12:31 pm
They had two updates where they changed the exp need for leveling and similar, so thats why you lost or got a level.You're not using an old save are you? sometimes quirky things happen...That could be it. I've been using the same save since before the human bondage early access update.
Post by: Retropunch on February 07, 2016, 02:45:04 pm
Yeah. TBH the biggest turn-off before was the near-constant state of bankrupcy. which led to suicide grinding.
Agreed. I liked the 'desperation' feel they were going for, but it led to some very un-fun moments where you were constantly being shafted by RNG and didn't really have any viable strategies to counter it.
It feels like a much fuller game now, although I wish that they'd add more stuff/rooms in the dungeons. Something like little mini-quests or rooms that give you an risk/reward option or something would be nice. Even just some more decorative lore rooms would be good too - it just sometimes gets a bit monotonous.
Post by: Reverie on February 07, 2016, 02:53:35 pm
Are low-light dungeon runs reasonably balanced as far as risk versus reward are concerned? I've tried this once and ended up with a whole party of afflicted heroes and barely enough extra capital to make that extra stress worthwhile.
Post by: Jopax on February 07, 2016, 03:34:39 pm
Also, had a really nice run in the warrens, which are by far the most annoying place to do. Was going up against the flesh thing, it was going pretty damn nice because I had a great party and I was one room away from it. Then I accidentally unplugged the power cable and lost it all :V
Post by: Sirus on February 07, 2016, 03:36:21 pm
In my experience the autosaving is really good in this game, it will even save in-battle for you.
Post by: Reverie on February 07, 2016, 03:40:53 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 07, 2016, 03:51:00 pm
Post by: Reverie on February 07, 2016, 03:55:19 pm
I don't bother with low-light runs on anything but Short missions because I'm walking away with more loot than I can carry by the end of anything else anyway, but the risk vs reward on those does seem about right.That's smart, I'll try that.
Post by: Jopax on February 07, 2016, 04:51:27 pm
No idea how I'll handle her tho, stuns maybe? Tho she's damn resistant to them it seems as all of them failed. And that 190 hp is a bitch to get trough when she takes your main source of damage which then causes your secondary source of damage to move into a position where he can't actually plague grenade her anymore :V
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2016, 04:55:21 pm
Honestly I feel like toons are leveling up way too fast. It's constantly pushing my expenses higher and higher faster than my cash gains are increasing.
Post by: Sirus on February 07, 2016, 04:55:45 pm
Huh, it does seem to save in battle. Probably to prevent savescumming. Finished that run with great success and some nice loot. Also finally braved up enough to attempt a veteran boss run on the siren. Holy shit, while the battles leading up to here weren't too hard I had to pull out. That scaly bitch stole my bounty hunter on turn one and proceeded to murder my plague doctor with him. Occultist barely got out too :CFrom what I saw on a Vinesauce video, bringing along 4 holy waters (one for each party member, take them before entering the boss room) helps quite a bit to prevent the siren from stealing your party members. Stacking stuns and DoTs helps. Basically, the player managed to kill the Siren in only a few turns without taking a single point of damage.
No idea how I'll handle her tho, stuns maybe? Tho she's damn resistant to them it seems as all of them failed. And that 190 hp is a bitch to get trough when she takes your main source of damage which then causes your secondary source of damage to move into a position where he can't actually plague grenade her anymore :V
Post by: Cthulhu on February 07, 2016, 05:15:34 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 07, 2016, 05:23:35 pm
Huh, it does seem to save in battle. Probably to prevent savescumming. Finished that run with great success and some nice loot. Also finally braved up enough to attempt a veteran boss run on the siren. Holy shit, while the battles leading up to here weren't too hard I had to pull out. That scaly bitch stole my bounty hunter on turn one and proceeded to murder my plague doctor with him. Occultist barely got out too :COh man, the siren and stealing party members. The first time I fought her I had two abominations for dps, a plague doctor, and a jester in the back for dealing with stress and buffing.
No idea how I'll handle her tho, stuns maybe? Tho she's damn resistant to them it seems as all of them failed. And that 190 hp is a bitch to get trough when she takes your main source of damage which then causes your secondary source of damage to move into a position where he can't actually plague grenade her anymore :V
3/4 times the siren got a chance to steal a party member, she chose the jester. All the jester could do was play the lute for her. Hellaciously lucky, because the one opportunity where she chose one of my abominations, he dealt 15 damage with rake to both my other abomination and my plague doctor due to the buffs I'd been giving them. She only had one turn with my abomination before I killed her. If she had stolen one of my two abominations right from the start I probably would've had to back out, and probably lose some dudes.
Post by: umiman on February 07, 2016, 05:38:33 pm
Clearly the strat to deal with the siren is to bring 4 jesters.Huh, it does seem to save in battle. Probably to prevent savescumming. Finished that run with great success and some nice loot. Also finally braved up enough to attempt a veteran boss run on the siren. Holy shit, while the battles leading up to here weren't too hard I had to pull out. That scaly bitch stole my bounty hunter on turn one and proceeded to murder my plague doctor with him. Occultist barely got out too :COh man, the siren and stealing party members. The first time I fought her I had two abominations for dps, a plague doctor, and a jester in the back for dealing with stress and buffing.
No idea how I'll handle her tho, stuns maybe? Tho she's damn resistant to them it seems as all of them failed. And that 190 hp is a bitch to get trough when she takes your main source of damage which then causes your secondary source of damage to move into a position where he can't actually plague grenade her anymore :V
3/4 times the siren got a chance to steal a party member, she chose the jester. All the jester could do was play the lute for her. Hellaciously lucky, because the one opportunity where she chose one of my abominations, he dealt 15 damage with rake to both my other abomination and my plague doctor due to the buffs I'd been giving them. She only had one turn with my abomination before I killed her. If she had stolen one of my two abominations right from the start I probably would've had to back out, and probably lose some dudes.
They'll have a talent contest song-off.
Post by: Jopax on February 07, 2016, 05:42:29 pm
Also, didn't think about holy water, mostly because I rarely use the items on characters, only when absolutely neccessary. I'm far too greedy to let a curio go to waste if I can help it XD
What stat does the mind control go off of anyways? Debuff? I might have some trinkets to help with that.
Post by: Sindain on February 07, 2016, 05:43:42 pm
Also, didn't think about holy water, mostly because I rarely use the items on characters, only when absolutely neccessary. I'm far too greedy to let a curio go to waste if I can help it XD
What stat does the mind control go off of anyways? Debuff? I might have some trinkets to help with that.
Yeah its debuff. I never even knew you could use holy water on your guys, guess I'll have to try that next time.
Post by: Reverie on February 07, 2016, 05:43:54 pm
Edit: Yeah, I had second thoughts and edited in Cove but you ninja'd me ;-)
Post by: Sirus on February 07, 2016, 05:44:15 pm
Post by: Jopax on February 07, 2016, 05:49:59 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 07, 2016, 05:51:56 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 07, 2016, 06:02:33 pm
EDIT: New Game Plus apparently has a loss condition? Haven't got there m'self, but apparently that's its main contribution.
Post by: gimli on February 08, 2016, 12:30:25 pm
Huh, it does seem to save in battle. Probably to prevent savescumming. Finished that run with great success and some nice loot. Also finally braved up enough to attempt a veteran boss run on the siren. Holy shit, while the battles leading up to here weren't too hard I had to pull out. That scaly bitch stole my bounty hunter on turn one and proceeded to murder my plague doctor with him. Occultist barely got out too :COh man, the siren and stealing party members. The first time I fought her I had two abominations for dps, a plague doctor, and a jester in the back for dealing with stress and buffing.
No idea how I'll handle her tho, stuns maybe? Tho she's damn resistant to them it seems as all of them failed. And that 190 hp is a bitch to get trough when she takes your main source of damage which then causes your secondary source of damage to move into a position where he can't actually plague grenade her anymore :V
3/4 times the siren got a chance to steal a party member, she chose the jester. All the jester could do was play the lute for her. Hellaciously lucky, because the one opportunity where she chose one of my abominations, he dealt 15 damage with rake to both my other abomination and my plague doctor due to the buffs I'd been giving them. She only had one turn with my abomination before I killed her. If she had stolen one of my two abominations right from the start I probably would've had to back out, and probably lose some dudes.
I killed her easily, but my party has resisted 5/4 charms.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 08, 2016, 01:41:40 pm
*Siren uses Song*
*Baer sees hot siren-chick mirage*
"Woah"
*Controls Jester*
"WHAAAT!!!..............Thats not where you go!"
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2016, 02:57:50 pm
I really dislike how I'm constantly feeling like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to my roster. Half the strategizing in the game right now is figuring out how you can run a week with the guys you have, without a) forcing guys into missions where they don't have the gear or the skills up to snuff, b) running an awkward team because it's the only thing you can put together this week or c) recruiting 4 pieces of shit (who I no longer have room for in my roster) just so you can pass the week.
Post by: Jopax on February 08, 2016, 03:06:07 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 08, 2016, 03:43:18 pm
Man guys level up fast now. Exactly two short Veteran missions takes them from 3 to 4. This is currently my biggest problem with the game. You can't make the cash you need to upgrade guys to the level they must run at. It's something like 80 Deeds to unlock Lvl 4 weapons and armor, when on a good run I'm getting 10 Deeds.
I really dislike how I'm constantly feeling like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to my roster. Half the strategizing in the game right now is figuring out how you can run a week with the guys you have, without a) forcing guys into missions where they don't have the gear or the skills up to snuff, b) running an awkward team because it's the only thing you can put together this week or c) recruiting 4 pieces of shit (who I no longer have room for in my roster) just so you can pass the week.
I was like that too for a long time. The mid-game can be quite a slog just cause you don't have enough slots to keep everything moving effectively and the works get gummed up. You run out of space for disposable rookies and somehow you still can't manage to field an optimal teamcomp.
The religious restriction on abominations is fucking bullshit. I think my abomination went on two total missions once he got out of tier 1.
And then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter. Probably not coming back to the game.
Post by: Reverie on February 08, 2016, 03:47:28 pm
If it's any consolation, the dev team still has a hands-on approach to development even after release, so maybe they'll have rebalanced it in time for you to give it another shot? They do listen to player criticism, I think. Sort of like recently, with the returning of resolve thresholds back to normal after players complained, for example.Man guys level up fast now. Exactly two short Veteran missions takes them from 3 to 4. This is currently my biggest problem with the game. You can't make the cash you need to upgrade guys to the level they must run at. It's something like 80 Deeds to unlock Lvl 4 weapons and armor, when on a good run I'm getting 10 Deeds.
I really dislike how I'm constantly feeling like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to my roster. Half the strategizing in the game right now is figuring out how you can run a week with the guys you have, without a) forcing guys into missions where they don't have the gear or the skills up to snuff, b) running an awkward team because it's the only thing you can put together this week or c) recruiting 4 pieces of shit (who I no longer have room for in my roster) just so you can pass the week.
I was like that too for a long time. The mid-game can be quite a slog just cause you don't have enough slots to keep everything moving effectively and the works get gummed up. You run out of space for disposable rookies and somehow you still can't manage to field an optimal teamcomp.
The religious restriction on abominations is fucking bullshit. I think my abomination went on two total missions once he got out of tier 1.
And then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter. Probably not coming back to the game.
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2016, 03:57:04 pm
Quote
And then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter.
Care to elaborate? I've been avoiding DD spoilers but at this point I think I need to know if it will be worth the slog.
My assumption is: it's just like every other dungeon in the game, except with "quests", different background tiles, enemies that we've known about since the first trailer video and the boss fight.
Post by: Reverie on February 08, 2016, 03:59:36 pm
There are new enemies for each dungeon difficulty level, so there is more variety than you'll see from the beginning of the game. The thing that's a bit iffy is just the time it takes to level up vs the time it takes to make enough money to outfit for the new levels vs the grind needed to upgrade the blacksmith.QuoteAnd then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter.
Care to elaborate? I've been avoiding DD spoilers but at this point I think I need to know if it will be worth the slog.
My assumption is: it's just like every other dungeon in the game, except with "quests", different background tiles, enemies that we've known about since the first trailer video and the boss fight.
Post by: Jopax on February 08, 2016, 04:04:30 pm
Post by: Reverie on February 08, 2016, 04:09:49 pm
Tho the good thing is the blacksmith is a one time thing, so once that's over with you just need to scrounge up the manpower for the run itself. And the money too :VThat would almost certainly require retiring veterans to allow the deeds to catch up without breaking the bank :-(
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2016, 04:36:23 pm
Honestly it's just all the stupid restrictions they've put in place that stop this game from being "play how you want and have fun." Adventuring limits and roster limits and dungeon levels all combine to leave you in this awkward place where you don't WANT to run your highest level guys for one reason or another. And then you finally run out of space for bottom feeders in your roster and STILL don't have the money, the heirlooms or the upgrades to really proceed to the part of the game it believes you're ready for.
Either that, or it just assumed you'd get hundreds of guys killed along the way so by the time you actually had level 4+s to run, you'd already bought up all the shit they'd need to survive.
Post by: Neonivek on February 08, 2016, 06:03:09 pm
But hopefully the game will continue to balance things. I am not ready to throw the game under the bus.
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2016, 06:33:51 pm
They just need to go the Long War route of XCOM. They're already partially there with all the pre-game option choices you can make (which I neglected to look at until after I was several weeks into my current game.) But they need to take that attitude with a lot of the restrictions, because frankly unless you expect NONE of your dudes to survive, the math doesn't make sense. It actually becomes HARDER to keep up with progression the more of your guys that survive, because in ~8 runs they're Level 4 and represent between $8k and $10k worth of upgrades just to reach that point. Unless Dark Runs give you just absolutely stupid amounts of money and heirlooms, or higher level missions are eminently doable without comparable upgrades (which previous experiences have told me they aren't) I don't see how you're supposed to keep up. I'm at Week 34, 25 Roster max, have almost entirely level 3 and 4 guys and 1 decent run nets me enough to money to upgrade maybe one guy to the next tier of armor, weapons and skills, and dealing with stress and other sundries, while still leaving me a ~$5k buffer. Most of my Level 3s are one run away from becoming Level 4, and yet I'm weeks and weeks and weeks away from earning enough Deeds to upgrade the Blacksmith for T4 armor. About the only thing I haven't done is sell off all the orange trinkets I'm hoarding, but I know the game well enough to realize that's just a stop gap measure.
It's ironic. I found the save file and started savescumming away the worst of the BS and it actually seems to have brought me to a bad place faster than playing normally.
I love the game and what it's trying to do but it's one of those games where the mechanical balance is fiddly. It works if you play the game a certain way but falls apart at either end of the spectrum (either doing terribly or doing way too good.) Maybe I'll restart with the mindset that "No guy is worth keeping or investing in until you've completely unlocked the Blacksmith." I should have the Blacksmith fully upgraded by Week 100 or so, at that rate. Because the way I'm playing now, which is investing in guys once they hit Rank 2, is not working out long-term.
If they doubled the amount of time it takes to level when adventuring in at-level dungeons it might start feeling closer to the mark.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 08, 2016, 07:11:26 pm
QuoteAnd then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter.
Care to elaborate? I've been avoiding DD spoilers but at this point I think I need to know if it will be worth the slog.
My assumption is: it's just like every other dungeon in the game, except with "quests", different background tiles, enemies that we've known about since the first trailer video and the boss fight.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 08, 2016, 07:15:00 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 08, 2016, 07:40:32 pm
QuoteAnd then I got to the darkest dungeon and was very disappointed, but XCOM came out so it didn't matter.
Care to elaborate? I've been avoiding DD spoilers but at this point I think I need to know if it will be worth the slog.
My assumption is: it's just like every other dungeon in the game, except with "quests", different background tiles, enemies that we've known about since the first trailer video and the boss fight.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So basically: aesthetically rad, mechanically underwhelming. Pretty much the story of DD to date IMO.
I remember way back when they said this was dev'd from a board game idea and they wanted to retain that board game feel...it made me nervous then and I see the fruits of it now. DD has a board game feel to it alright, and it's got all the weird corner restrictions that irritate in a boardgame and you'd simply house rule away....but here you can't. DD is a game where you can feel the developers actively trying to clamp down on different aspects of balance so you end up with corner-case after corner-case. In the logic of a board game when you hit that point, the game's over because it's unwinnable in the long-run (or winnable in an unfun way.) DD has that same problem and the response is largely the same: start over. You may keep your hamlet and stuff but the same thing basically applies. You flush the game (i.e. your heroes) down the drain and start a "new" game.
DD has all the same problems of inflexibility in design too. It's got a rigid structure and format. While visually and aesthetically that format is great, mechanically they don't do a good job of varying it or giving it more than superficial depth. I was shocked to find secret rooms had been added to the game, but even that's "pffffttt" key, chest, very rare trinket, because "dat's the format." And to be honest, if I tried to play a board game for 40 hours straight I'd probably find it boring and repetitive too. Board games are great fun for a night a week because you have just that much distance from the mechanics of it to not care about their simplicity, their unfun priorities or balance issues.
Now that I think about it, that's EXACTLY how I feel about DD. I'm in love with it for several hours when I fire it up just like I would be with a board game. But once I've hit saturation point with the mechanics and challenge and novelty, and am just "playing the game", suddenly a lot of the constraints start to wear thin. It's like, imagine playing Arkham Horror for 60 hours over the course of a week. Arkham Horror is a great game in small doses. But once you've had to win tedious game after tedious game....suddenly everyone wants to play something else.
Sometimes, a board game can't really get any better than being a board game.
Anyways, to hear that the DD is:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just kinda breaks my heart. I get it's their finale and it's totally in the style of DD but....fuck. It all feels like it could be a lot more, and I honestly expected more. Red Hook established a legit, rad IP and brand where thousands of indie developers fail to do so. I'm just not sure the excellence and depth of the product actually lives up to the awesomeness of the brand.
Post by: Boltgun on February 09, 2016, 04:15:22 am
Also, killed the flesh. Gosh it was easy.
Post by: gimli on February 09, 2016, 07:36:50 am
I only play DD one hour at a time and it's alright. Not all games are meant to be played all day.
Hah, just like me, and yeah, this isn't CK2.
Post by: Jopax on February 09, 2016, 08:07:09 am
Post by: LordPorkins on February 09, 2016, 10:31:03 am
I only play DD one hour at a time and it's alright. Not all games are meant to be played all day.Yah, thats the game. The first levels your like "Bah, feel my wrath" tgen it cranks it up a notch. The first levels are like gateway drugs.
Also, killed the flesh. Gosh it was easy.
Post by: Bauglir on February 09, 2016, 11:16:26 am
Nenjin is absolutely right, though - there's a huge element of "Play it our way or don't play it" that seems to be influencing the design, and the board game heritage is probably a major culprit, now that you mention it. It should be possible for what I just outlined to be less mandatory. Games like this are better when they're encouraging you to take risks, not forcing you to play as safely as possible. Which is exactly what the current balance paradigm does - the safe option also has the highest potential payoff, because it's saving you all that gold.
Post by: Reverie on February 09, 2016, 11:19:52 am
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2016, 12:54:29 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 09, 2016, 12:57:33 pm
One of the most annoying things has always been the crests. I'll go to weald for deeds and end up with 6 deeds and 30 crests, on a short mission. It seems like longer missions might be weighted towards more of the main heirloom, but that might just be because in long missions I have space constraints and don't bother picking up all the stacks of crests.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2016, 01:12:59 pm
I get why they did it. Earlier versions gear progression WAS too fast. But now it's the opposite problem. The current deed requirements would be ok in a longer-form playthrough, gradually working your way up through the dungeon levels.
But right now it's a fucking stampede toward the DD.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 09, 2016, 01:19:33 pm
Post by: Reverie on February 09, 2016, 01:25:54 pm
Yah, i have like 300 of everything.... And 5 deeds. Doesnt help that you need deeds for pretty much everything upgrade-wise.Especially since the blacksmith is so important, but the wagon even more so.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 09, 2016, 01:27:41 pm
Post by: Reverie on February 09, 2016, 01:32:31 pm
I have fully upgraded all stress builings.... And i havent even started a hard mission yet.By 'hard', do you mean 'veteran', or 'champion'? Because I don't find an upgraded hamlet even that useful until I start doing veteran missions with a few healthy lvl 3s. I treat lvl 1s as glorified lvl 0s and don't even bother to destress them (instead opting to release them from service if they are too stressed to save money) unless they happen to be someone worth keeping at all costs, like Vestals or Occultists. I try not to dish out hamlet services until the character is lvl 2 or very close to it.
Post by: nenjin on February 09, 2016, 01:35:04 pm
I have fully upgraded all stress builings.... And i havent even started a hard mission yet.
Stress buildings are easy. Their values are low compared to what the Blacksmith wants, and you don't even need them maxed to deal with Level 0 - 4 Stress.
And yeah, traditionally you always maxed out the Wagon before the Blacksmith. Now.....I'm wondering if that's really wise.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 09, 2016, 01:37:45 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 10, 2016, 12:10:18 am
Post by: Spehss _ on February 10, 2016, 12:22:15 am
This thread has taught me that I play this game very weirdly. I maxed the Blacksmith before I dumped more than cursory investment into the wagon, because I tend to focus on a small number of heroes at a time. When a party got killed off, I'd just recruit a new one, making do with whatever the wagon gave me and I had leftover. Until the endgame, my roster was never even full.Neat.
I tended to just throw parties together based on who I had available that week and who worked well together. Certain teams would come together over time but I was always keeping a full roster.
Post by: Jopax on February 10, 2016, 10:39:10 am
Also just beat my first veteran boss, did the necromancer, wasn't really too difficult since I stacked stuns and blight and kept shuffling him all over the place with my occultist so the most he did was stress out some of my guys and that was it. And with that, I got my first level 5 dude, the occultist, which doesn't mean much atm since I can't really afford either the guild or the blacksmith upgrades to give him the top tier stuff or skills. I think my big issue right now are portraits, mostly because I fucking hate going into the warrens :V
Post by: Reverie on February 10, 2016, 10:59:08 am
That's hardly the most optimal way to go about it. Ideally you want to have a full roster so that you can tailor each party for the run you're doing, since different areas and different kinds of runs require different folks to be doable with as little issue as possible.You forgot that he was useless anyways, because lvl 5s will only accept Champion dungeons like the masochists they are.
Also just beat my first veteran boss, did the necromancer, wasn't really too difficult since I stacked stuns and blight and kept shuffling him all over the place with my occultist so the most he did was stress out some of my guys and that was it. And with that, I got my first level 5 dude, the occultist, which doesn't mean much atm since I can't really afford either the guild or the blacksmith upgrades to give him the top tier stuff or skills. I think my big issue right now are portraits, mostly because I fucking hate going into the warrens :V
Post by: Bauglir on February 10, 2016, 12:47:46 pm
Focusing on a few heroes at once also tends to mean that the roster is highly unbalanced, which is good as it means you've still got low-level folks on hand when they're necessary to refill your coffers after a disaster, and you're not spending tons of gold keeping them upgraded since they only do runs occasionally.
I did do most of my build-up prior to release, though, so perhaps it is different now.
Post by: gimli on February 11, 2016, 12:39:51 pm
I need a bag of holding!
Post by: Mephansteras on February 11, 2016, 12:48:14 pm
My biggest complaint with this game since beta has been that it's biggest draw is the immersion and atmosphere, which they shatter at every opportunity to enforce 'hard choices' and limit what the player can do.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 11, 2016, 12:49:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hes just staring at you like "When i crit and save us all, and we get out of this, you better freaking put me in the tavern for the next 3 weeks."
Post by: Spehss _ on February 12, 2016, 01:53:47 pm
Worked really well, actually. Only complaint I'd have is that the jesters couldn't do much when there was only one enemy in front. Could probably fix that by giving them dirk stab instead of battle ballad.
Spoiler: hag fight (click to show/hide)
Jesters deal some pretty decent damage, I'd say. I think their bleed attacks were buffed at some point, since now they start with dealing 3 damage and 2 damage per round at lvl 1. I was just using them as a support class before now.
Also occultist is awesome. Crazy good healing skill, good utility and pretty good back line damage. The first time I used wyrd construction it critted for 24 health.
All in all that was a better party build than I expected. Occultist kept everyone healed up, jesters kept stress down, killing speed wasn't bad at all, good range of targets. Man-at-arms' riposte worked pretty good at tanking and dealing damage in tandem with occultist's heal skill.
Post by: Sindain on February 12, 2016, 02:11:11 pm
*Snip*
I would've put an abomination in 2nd row (heck I think I've ran that exact comp vs the Hag). You kinda said it yourself, you got lucky with the Hags pull. If she put your man at arms in the pot you would've been in trouble. Though I guess you could've moved the occultist to the front in that situation.
Post by: Anvilfolk on February 12, 2016, 03:50:30 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 12, 2016, 04:00:35 pm
The occultist is amazing. Until his Wyrd Reconstruction heals 0 damage three times in a row, and then you're in a tough spot :DRNG is RNG. By which I mean RNG is a cold cruel bitch with a grudge who loves to see you suffer.
For example, I just had a short novice mission in the ruins with a straightforward map layout that had 3 walls in it. 3 walls. In a short mission with no alternative paths. It's made me paranoid enough to buy at least 3 shovels no matter how long the mission is.
Post by: nenjin on February 12, 2016, 04:15:50 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 12, 2016, 05:35:56 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 12, 2016, 05:50:01 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 12, 2016, 06:45:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Got 1,500 gold and some ancestral map trinket that increases scouting and trap disarm chance by 25%. Not sure if that was worth a level 1 occultist with lvl 1 gear. Graveyard attributes occultist's death to "an ally".
Post by: Jopax on February 12, 2016, 07:35:10 pm
Also stupidly lost one of my favourite graverobbers. Was doing the veteran hag and it was the third fight I think in the run, against the usual giant/witch/dog combo, was doing pretty okish but the confusion spores put her in the first spot, she then got critted in the face and went from 2/3ds to deaths door. Ok, my occultist is gonna heal her next turn, just gotta keep the giant busy 'till then. So I tried to stun him, but failed. Then just before it was the occultists turn he throws down fucking poison spores and kills her. I have another graverobber ready, but it's just not the same :C
Post by: Bauglir on February 12, 2016, 07:39:44 pm
Got 1,500 gold and some ancestral map trinket that increases scouting and trap disarm chance by 25%. Not sure if that was worth a level 1 occultist with lvl 1 gear. Graveyard attributes occultist's death to "an ally".I would say it was worth it. You can recruit another Occultist, and if you don't like the map, Ancestral trinkets sell for more than enough to upgrade gear to level 1, and probably pay for the stress relief on the survivors.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 12, 2016, 09:11:46 pm
Is there any reason to beat the bosses now? It seems that the end goal of the game is the darkest dungeon, so aside from the trinket drops from beating the bosses, it seems you could just as well complete non-boss missions to train up heroes and get resources (gold and heirlooms) for sending them into the darkest dungeon.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 12, 2016, 09:28:48 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 12, 2016, 11:39:42 pm
That was underwhelming. Needless to say I'm going to loot the place.
Post by: Bauglir on February 13, 2016, 01:07:19 am
or at least that's what would happen to me, maybe your luck is better
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2016, 06:43:21 am
Hag for some reason really gave me trouble though. That stupid pot takes two to three hits on average without Level 4 Gear and Skills. The fight drug on and on and on because I'd only get a chance to hurt her every other turn when I maxed out on damage or critted the pot. If she'd used her healing move more, I would have been hosed. Then again, getting your face Tenderized every round right as your guy comes out of the pot is bad too. Even with damage trinkets I can't seem to get that pot down in 1 hit unless it's a crit.
Not looking forward to the Flesh and the Crew. Flesh can be randomly obnoxious with the right combos of heals, stuns and damage, while the crew basically requires you kill the chain holder in one turn or he heals to full, which leads you to sometimes waste actions because you can't possible kill it or do anything else useful that turn. It's slightly less worse than the Hag because at least you can dodge or resist your way out of the attack. We'll see though. My damage parties are starting to get really strong. I haven't taken two healers in forever. Junia's Head + Book of Sanity or what have you makes the Occultist godly, and the Vestal pretty decent at higher levels. I suspect the Brigand 16 Pounder might be kind kinda nasty too if the Matchman is all beefy.
Had a fun first fight against the Crew. Man At Arms had been getting hammered the whole level, got Resolve Tested during the fight. Busts out with Powerful. The Crew keeps trying to anchor him, and he just keeps shouting like "I will not fall for your darkness!" You just get a warm fuzzy when you actually get a Virtue during a boss fight.
I have to make myself drag a Jester along on missions. I'm just not impressed. Solo/Finale leaves him really exposed, and you can't really buff his damage that well. The Bleeds are ok but Blight is just straight up better damage, faster. The stress heal is about all I find him useful for. So when you're down to the bottom of the barrel trying to get a boss fight completed before you level past it, and you take the Jester, it's a pretty big hit to your DPS. His miraculous dodging just never seems to pay out when I need it to and he's one bad crit away from serially fucked without a big heal. I'd rather have a Grave Robber.
And speaking of GR...I used to poo-poo her but man, Thrown Dagger is just nuts. Between its base damage, accuracy buff and crit rating, it's like the strongest ranged attack in the game short of Arbalest buffed crits. The damage is so good I rarely use the Blight Darts. They simply don't keep up in damage, not even over several turns. She pretty much puts the Highwaymen to shame.
Post by: gimli on February 13, 2016, 08:24:31 am
The occultist is amazing. Until his Wyrd Reconstruction heals 0 damage three times in a row, and then you're in a tough spot :D
Owwww dat cruel RNG! :D ..on the other hand my level 4 occultist healed 32 on my Crusader who was at Death's Door. Basically he saved the whole party.
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2016, 06:30:49 pm
Also there are some trinkets which radically reduce Resolve XP. Like the "Necronomicon" (+26% Heal, +4 SPD, -48% Resolve XP.)
Post by: Bauglir on February 13, 2016, 06:53:29 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 13, 2016, 07:13:34 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2016, 07:15:50 pm
The first time I played the tier 2 crew though we got fucked up. Nobody died but only because it was so obvious so quickly that we had no chance I was able to run away before things got too bad.
Post by: Jopax on February 13, 2016, 07:47:23 pm
My first try went horribly on apprentice but I was rather unprepared and had no idea what was waiting for me. But second time around I just let my frontline Leper tank the anchor while still applying hew every chance he got, the rest just kinda focused the mass of bodies or occasionally healed someone who needed it.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 14, 2016, 12:26:40 am
Post by: Boltgun on February 14, 2016, 08:10:42 am
By the way, I installed the valentine mod (https://www.reddit.com/r/darkestdungeon/comments/45cfs0/darkest_valentine_seasonal_mod_collaboration/), anyone else tried it and found the new trinket it features?
Post by: ragnar119 on February 14, 2016, 12:51:56 pm
So I've been going through the Backer Trinket's list....some of these things are pretty broken. Like "bonus, bonus, bonus, -20% Trap Disarm in Position 1" or "Bonus bonus bonus, -10% Monsters Surprised/Bleed/Move/Blight/Stun Resist While Camping." There's 297 of them and using certain combinations you can basically get to stuff like +46% Heal or +30% Damage or +10% Crit with pretty much trivial penalties. Some of the ability combinations don't even make sense as they're described. What would "-3 SPD vs. Marked" even mean? Or "+50% Food Consumed On The First Round."
Also there are some trinkets which radically reduce Resolve XP. Like the "Necronomicon" (+26% Heal, +4 SPD, -48% Resolve XP.)
Just you know, those trinkets are in a way cheats and are not balanced, and also they dont drop in game, so the only way to get them is to use the code.
Anyway, some anime action:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on February 14, 2016, 01:27:49 pm
Anyway, some anime action:I think your image is borked. It didn't work for me until I opened the link in another tab. (http://att.3dmgame.com/att/forum/201601/26/1836571mnt4fwxn2a82sff.jpg)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pretty stark contrast between the two art styles.
Post by: ragnar119 on February 14, 2016, 01:38:18 pm
Anyway, some anime action:I think your image is borked. It didn't work for me until I opened the link in another tab. (http://att.3dmgame.com/att/forum/201601/26/1836571mnt4fwxn2a82sff.jpg)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pretty stark contrast between the two art styles.
I dont know, it works for me without problems
Post by: Bauglir on February 14, 2016, 02:02:04 pm
EDIT: The fix, by the way, is to never link directly to an image you find on the internet. Instead, upload a copy to an image hosting service and link to that. It's more polite, more reliable, and longer-lasting.
Post by: nenjin on February 14, 2016, 05:02:47 pm
Quote
Just you know, those trinkets are in a way cheats and are not balanced, and also they dont drop in game, so the only way to get them is to use the code.
I'm aware of that. But I believe the idea is to put them into full rotation eventually, and they need to actually be looked over and adjusted before that happens. Because in their current state many are just silly (or like, the values assigned to the trinket traits are completely silly. Like +20 Stun Resist for -5 Crit, -4 SPD and some other shit that makes it completely not worth it compared to a common, vanilla game trinket.)
Post by: ragnar119 on February 14, 2016, 06:32:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 14, 2016, 11:49:44 pm
So I've hit level 5 in most of my roster except for 1 party still leveling to catch the bosses I missed along the way. I put the tank in stress treatment so he's fresh for the last boss fight in Veteran.
I run a Champion Dungeon even though a) I don't have level 5 weapons and b) I can barely afford level 5 armor and skills for the party that's going in. That shit is insanely expensive.
So I do a Med Warrens Champion run. It's total balls. Minimum of 2 enemy crits per combat. The fucking Butcher Pig crits with pretty much every single mace ball to the face. Single Vestal healing has the party at mid life for most of the dungeon. Vestal and Bounty Hunter go Hopeless and Irrational, Leper pulls through with Focused, Helion is right on the brink.
I finish the dungeon. And my lower level tank for next week? Declares he needs to stay and pray some more.
So since I've been save scumming I experiment. I load up a party of Level 5s and retreat them from the dungeon immediately.
The tank is still praying.
I do the same thing again for the next week.
The tank is still praying.
I do the same thing again for the next week.
The tank is still praying.
SO. Even though I advance three fucking weeks and take 20 stress on 4 guys each, the game does not play by the rules it's put forth. Week goes by: shit in town happens. This "Oh sorry, you must run % of a dungeon before a real week passes" crap is bullshit. The game sticks me in this position and then refuses to budge until I throw my undergeared guys who I can't afford to upgrade into a dungeon. I can't recruit anymore guys to throw into a lowbie dungeon either.
This. Fucking. Game.
Post by: Bauglir on February 15, 2016, 12:26:59 am
If you aren't having fun, I'd say quit, do something else. At this point I'm only in it because I want to hear the narration for the final missions and there's only 2 of those left.
*It's biting my ass come Darkest Dungeon, since it means I have to level up a fresh group for every mission, but at least I was able to get there to have that problem.
Post by: nenjin on February 15, 2016, 03:31:52 pm
Quote
If you aren't having fun, I'd say quit, do something else. At this point I'm only in it because I want to hear the narration for the final missions and there's only 2 of those left.
I'm pretty much at that point. I'd like to see the DD but at this point it's going to be an uphill battle to get there unless I scrap my whole roster and grind another ~10 hours to get them all leveled again.
I may just scrap the current game and wait until Town Events go in before I attempt it again. It's like, it's not impossible for me to finish. It just feels like all the careful work I've put in so far has been ultimately for nothing; I could have just thrown my guys willy nilly into dungeons for the last 30 hours and be at about the same place. At least in another playthrough I can do things differently but, meh, I've got to finish FO4 and get XCOM2 and that's honestly sounding more fun that another battle of wills with DD.
Post by: Simon on February 16, 2016, 02:50:28 pm
Is it really true, that I can't kill the first (green level) bosses with a roster of lvl. 3+s? 'Cause I painstakingly (you have no idea what amount of emotional, physical and mental pain is hidden behind this word) leveled up EVERY SINGLE FUCKIN' CLASS to level three, and now they refuse to do lower level runs. Is there no way around this? Can't you finish off the lower level bosses on veteran and higher, so I can use my guys/gals? Do I really have to level up a new batch of goons, spending sick hours I already spent?
Did the game really just meta-fuck me over?
Post by: Bauglir on February 16, 2016, 02:53:06 pm
Post by: Boltgun on February 16, 2016, 03:01:06 pm
Post by: Simon on February 16, 2016, 03:07:07 pm
And leveling up low levels again is just... tedious. Mainly since I've already got all the classes up to at least level 3.
Man... DD just never stops trying to get me off computer games for good, does it?
EDIT: I guess the bosses would be really easy for veteran level characters. It's a shame, though, they couldn't at least level up all the bosses along your characters (or at least give you the opportunity to do ALL the bosses on ALL difficulties). *SIGH*
Post by: Bauglir on February 16, 2016, 03:24:00 pm
(or at least give you the opportunity to do ALL the bosses on ALL difficulties).
Oh, I wouldn't worry about that. I don't even consider it a spoiler - check out the Caretaker's list of goals for you in the activity log. It lists all the bosses in the game right from the word "go", unless that's changed lately.
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 03:49:30 pm
Guys, guys...
Is it really true, that I can't kill the first (green level) bosses with a roster of lvl. 3+s? 'Cause I painstakingly (you have no idea what amount of emotional, physical and mental pain is hidden behind this word) leveled up EVERY SINGLE FUCKIN' CLASS to level three, and now they refuse to do lower level runs. Is there no way around this? Can't you finish off the lower level bosses on veteran and higher, so I can use my guys/gals? Do I really have to level up a new batch of goons, spending sick hours I already spent?
Did the game really just meta-fuck me over?
Welcome to the last 2 pages me of me bitching about this game. I pretty much did the same thing you did; leveled all the classes meticulously one at a time so they were all the same level. The difference is I KNEW the game's rules about who can't run what....and I still managed to get jammed up in the late game with upgrades vs. hero levels.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 16, 2016, 05:47:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 05:51:56 pm
I think yalls just need to do a dark run once and awhile. Maybe like 1 dark, 3 light, repeat. Dark runs easily double you loot haul.
And wreck heroes. If you don't care about any of your heroes, dark runs are great. If you're trying to keep them, they can easily end up a wash.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 16, 2016, 05:52:55 pm
Well, theirs a 50/50 chance. I think RNGesus has been lenient on my with dark runs in exchange for always giving bosses crits.I think yalls just need to do a dark run once and awhile. Maybe like 1 dark, 3 light, repeat. Dark runs easily double you loot haul.
And wreck heroes. If you don't care about any of your heroes, dark runs are great. If you're trying to keep them, they can easily end up a wash.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 16, 2016, 06:12:36 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 06:31:09 pm
And for the most part, I've been successful playing DD carefully, not losing anyone. But as I said above, the game does not seem balanced around a full roster surviving. Whether that's "inconceivable" or they just never though people could/would cheat, you end up not being able to advance much further beyond a certain bottleneck WITHOUT losing heroes. And that's what I find irritating. If I play well, play smart, no one dies...why does the game then effectively force me to either ditch heroes or throw them into dungeons they're undergeared for?
Put another way: if you play well you're effectively delaying the "pain" part of the game until the late game, when everything a hero needs to do costs more and you've already invested significant (5k+) gold into each of them.
If you just 24/7 dark run Level 0 and 1 dungeons until you unlock the Blacksmith completely, and just ditch heroes immediately after their run unless it was flawless, then yeah the game's difficulty isn't an issue. If you try to save heroes though....that's where the game sticks you between a rock and a hard place.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 16, 2016, 06:52:52 pm
Speaking of which I have to check if they have released a new version of XCOM redux yet..
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 06:59:47 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 16, 2016, 07:59:28 pm
Spoiler: Consider one of my favorite parties (click to show/hide)
But, really, the short version is this - build your party around itself rather than the challenges they'll face. You expect them to live for a while, so synergy is the most important thing.
EDIT: That party also doesn't do well with shuffling, but as long as it's a rare occurrence can usually rearrange fast enough to recover.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 16, 2016, 09:53:00 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 10:07:49 pm
Basically, I think careful party arrangement isn't necessary. All the classes do pretty well at the stuff they're supposed to, so just about any line up works anywhere in the traditional 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer setup.
Still, I'll occasionally run into that awkward combo. But I shuffle my parties pretty often not out of careless but necessity. Levels man, fucking character levels. Getting to take the Plague Doctor pretty much anywhere is a "perk" (although in later levels Blight does truly become rad.) Same story with the Houndmaster. I try to avoid running 1 tank and three squishies. I like to keep a BH or Helion or Abomination in that Rank 2 because it seems to soak up a ton of hits. So I have to "fit" those weird corner case classes in rather than build around them. Sometimes those quirky parties can work. Usually though it's a swift two crits to all hell breaking lose instead. Those fucking giants man. 45 point crits and up. Not even your tanks with some prot on them can shrug that off.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 16, 2016, 11:28:08 pm
Spoiler: details (click to show/hide)
It's been pretty successful whenever I take it out on novice level missions. Killed several bosses with the party: 8-Pounder Cannon, Sodden Crew, the Mass of Flesh, the Swine Prince, and the Sonorous Prophet. I managed to level up my 2 bounty hunters and arbalest to lvl 3 at the same time, my houndmaster is lvl2 with probably 1 resolve xp behind them. I'll be able to take them on veteran level missions and see how they do.
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2016, 12:23:06 am
Comes in useful with bosses though if they're not constantly shuffling/stunning/doing weird shit to you.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 17, 2016, 12:54:04 am
Veteran missions seem pretty brutal compared to novice. Blight and bleed damage was constantly wearing down my team, for example. I don't normally take any bandages or antivenom. Lesson learned.
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2016, 01:58:30 am
Post by: Boltgun on February 17, 2016, 03:27:27 am
Debuffs are stronger than you might think because the damage is rounded down. Minus 1% will always mean minus 1 damage. The opposite is also true, plus 1% will get damage rounded up so stun buffed enemies. That's why taking a medicinal herb or two is a good idea.
I wrecked a giant and ghoul combo by having the occultist and leper stack so much damage reductions that the giant had -97%, he did crits for 4. The stress was another story but I ended the run at full health.
And yes, a stack of either bandages or antivenoms depending of the area you are going for is more health saved than a vestal sometimes.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 17, 2016, 10:20:13 am
Post by: ndkid on February 17, 2016, 03:34:03 pm
Yeah, ultimately I find that dropping enemies quickly is almost more important than anything, including healing sometimes.
I concur with this. As a wise man once said: "always get in the first shot. (boot to the head)"
Since I haven't seen them come up in conversation much, does everyone agree that the Jester is a waste of space? Someone who's main gimmick is changing rank seems mostly a recipe for messing up every other character's position. You could try and build a party around it, but it's not like the jester deals out so much damage or DPS to make that worthwhile. I've gotten to the point where I never take them and immediately sell jester-only trinkets.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 17, 2016, 03:49:06 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2016, 04:02:12 pm
The bleeds don't hold a candle to blights, they don't stack as fast, they don't apply damage as consistently over turns.
His melee attacks are weak and the dmg debuff is so high he gets less out of damage buff trinkets toward his bleed attacks than the rest of melee or ranged.
His HP is shit, and his dodge never delivers like I believe it should.
Rank switching as a party is fun until it completely falls apart on you in a bad fight.
Stress heals are nice if he's not got anything else to do, but honestly? I'd rather have someone able to do damage from that position. His turns often feel wasted unless you throw him into the front ranks.
He's easily the weakest character in the game in my book.
Post by: Spehss _ on February 17, 2016, 06:17:57 pm
That said, I like jesters. Good for dealing with stress. I used to use them purely as a support in the back, using battle ballad and inspiring tune. A recent patch made it so he can use inspiring tune in the 3rd rank, so now he can actually use his two bleed attacks sometimes AND play the lute. His camping skills are great to relieve stress, and the recent camping skill buff adding stress resistance for 4 fights is even better. Best buddies with an abomination that transforms regularly.
I think his bleed skills are pretty good compared to blight. Damage used to be lower if I recall correctly, but they buffed it to 3 points of damage a round and 2 points of damage a round at lvl 1 instead of 2 points a round and 1 point a round. A plague doctor will obviously be dealing more dots with blight, but the grave robber or abomination inflict about the same blight damage as the jester deals in bleed damage, at least at level 1 skills.
I'm pretty sure that if an attack that inflicts dots crits, the dots will get 2 more turns of damage. So a bleed attack that deals 3 pts/round for 3 rounds that crits will deal 3 pts/round for 5 rounds, or 15 damage total instead of 9 damage. And jester has good crit chance.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 17, 2016, 08:38:40 pm
Post by: Blaze on February 17, 2016, 09:17:23 pm
Speaking of houndmasters, I think I just made a ridiculous damage dealer.
Spiked Collar, Legendary Bracer, Unerring, Weald Tactician, Eldritch Hater, and Rabies (which I just got by accident).
The first three work and rabies work anywhere, giving +55% damage.
In the Weald or against Eldritch creatures, that brings it to +70%.
Against Eldritch creatures in the Weald (Fungus stuff and Slimes) that's a +85%.
It's enough to nearly negate the damage penalty for Hound harry (-80%), so I can hit the entire enemy party for full damage in almost any row. To top it off I can use a dog treat (+100% DMG) to shred bosses parties or Mark+Hound Rush (+100% vs Marked, calculated to 285% with dog treat) to annihilate single targets.
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2016, 11:18:57 pm
Plus tons of shit likes to resist bleed at average to good levels. Other than the Warrens, most stuff seems more vulnerable to Bleed. So whereas you might have to buff up the Jester's bleed with a trinket to get consistent application, Blight doesn't really need it.
The Jester isn't terrible. I think it's a "fun" class. I just think that in terms of damage, virtually everyone does it better and faster. Stress healing is the only real thing he has going for him above everyone else. Basically, use Jester if you like playing risky or doing risky things like having Clown Shoes try to Dodge tank, or if you like that 4th rank buffer. (I don't use them, frankly. More damage per turn > buffs.) Otherwise, I think almost every other damage class gives better results. I sort of feel similar about the HM, but, he can attack any rank from almost any position, self-heals, has an active defense ability and a great debuff. (Forget Marking for damage. Marking for reduce Prot is arguably just as good if not better.) He's way more flexible than the Jester without having to change ranks or debuff himself for the privilege.
That said, I ALWAYS forget to give the dog their treat during boss fights. Always.
Post by: Boltgun on February 18, 2016, 03:38:00 am
For example, I put it in first rank for a finale then spam battle balad. With a leper, that compensates the low damage.
However, my favorite combo for now is leper/occultist, laying damage debuffs on the stronger hitters while the other two chars attack the weaker targets, then throw evade debuffs and chop, chop, chop. The leper being slow made it easy to time the debuffs.
The one char I have trouble with is the highwayman, he's not bad by any means but unlike any other chars, I cannot fit him in any team synergy.
Post by: Blaze on February 18, 2016, 05:55:53 am
That said, I ALWAYS forget to give the dog their treat during boss fights. Always.I see this surprisingly often, to the point where many Youtubers toss some of their loot to get the treasures from the boss and leave with a pair of treats in their back pocket.
Give that poor dog his biscuit.
Post by: gimli on February 18, 2016, 11:13:01 am
Post by: Spehss _ on February 18, 2016, 11:44:37 am
So....veteran run. vestal/hm/leper/leper party. [withstand & solemnity on both lepers] Full HP & 0 stress after I finished the mission. I gotta test this setup more.
Neat. Post details please. I don't use lepers and don't really see how that party is good, since all my experience with lepers implies that they miss constantly and would be awful for reliable dps.
Post by: gimli on February 18, 2016, 12:01:22 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 18, 2016, 12:35:43 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 18, 2016, 12:39:58 pm
Post by: Blaze on February 18, 2016, 05:49:39 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 18, 2016, 05:58:20 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 18, 2016, 09:13:05 pm
A leper Fated is pretty killer though, throw on some redemption bands and you're golden.Does fated proc that often? I've got a couple heroes with fated, not sure if I want to use the sanitarium to lock it now or later, or at all.
Post by: Blaze on February 18, 2016, 09:35:37 pm
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2016, 10:47:51 am
I actually really like the Leper Armband that gives +30% heals. Add that on top of your healers already running 25%+ heals, and heal can monster heal himself. I've seen him crit heal himself for 40+. I think Leper may be my favorite tank at this point. Crusader is good, Man At Arms is good, but Leper combines high damage, self-sustainability and good tank HP.
Yep, yep.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 19, 2016, 11:43:45 am
Post by: Sindain on February 19, 2016, 11:50:09 am
Most of the tanks do have some way of healing themsekves. Only barbarian doesnt. And shes got aldrenaline rush, which is almost as good.
Man at Arms doesn't. Crusader only has Battle Heal which is garbage imo, and is significantly worse than Solemnity in terms of self heals.
Adrenaline Rush is pretty solid though.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 19, 2016, 11:52:23 am
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2016, 12:36:51 pm
Post by: Blaze on February 19, 2016, 12:38:28 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 19, 2016, 01:44:00 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 19, 2016, 03:15:29 pm
Throw in a Maintain Equipment camp buff and he'll have 60%. Though I don't know why I'd use it over his party-wides; MAA has some pretty awesome camp skills.Yes, in terms of non-self buffs, bounty hunter and Man At Arms are the best.
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2016, 07:11:40 pm
I wouldn't run all Lepers over the other tanks but....I don't worry about the Leper surviving or going crazy like I do the others. At the end of the day the MAA and Crusader and Helion all need help when their HP bottoms out. The Leper doesn't. If the Leper had self prot and self mark target, I probably wouldn't use the other tanks as tanks.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 19, 2016, 08:02:49 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 19, 2016, 08:04:15 pm
If the Leper had self prot and self mark target, I probably wouldn't use the other tanks as tanks.Leper actually has a self-buff that gives +25% protection. Withstand at level 1 heals 9 stress and gives +25% protection now, I don't think it used to do that.
Tried two lvl 0 lepers in a party of occultist, plague doctor, leper, and leper. Went really well actually, lepers hit regularly after giving them each an accuracy stone for +5 acc and -1 speed. I think I'll use them more.
I even killed the collector with that party. Plague Doctor kept the collector blighted, occultist healed, weakened marksmen heads, and used eldritch artillery. The two lepers kept hacking at the front lines and even got to hit the collector a few times.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 19, 2016, 08:17:48 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 21, 2016, 09:27:35 pm
Although the prophet was killed (and two of his pews were destroyed for the 1250 gold they each drop), my occultist was killed, and the plague doctor and one of my lepers were on death's door. Once the occultist fell I had to focus on finishing off the prophet before everyone else died.
Ripperoni, Chandros the Occultist. You were a real bro in the fight against the eldritch horrors. He got crit heals often and wasn't afraid of anything. Except when he got the fearful affliction.
That makes the 7th hero to die in 34 weeks. in this save, at least.
So I'm reaching a point where my heroes are high levels but I can't upgrade their skills or equipment to match their level, either the buildings aren't upgraded or the upgrades are too expensive to feasibly upgrade everyone before a mission. It's making veteran missions pretty intense.
Post by: Bauglir on February 22, 2016, 12:24:47 am
Spoiler: May All Be Obvious (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on February 22, 2016, 02:22:05 am
I seem to be low on gold too though, which makes it a challenge to decide which has more priority in a mission, getting gold or getting heirlooms. Inventory space is proving to be annoying.
Spoiler: ruins curios (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bauglir on February 22, 2016, 02:37:27 am
this changes everythingSpoiler: ruins curios (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cthulhu on February 22, 2016, 03:10:49 am
Almost all of the items can be used on curios, even the dog treats. Be careful smashing things with the shovel though, some things react unpleasantly to being smashed.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 22, 2016, 07:36:41 am
Using a torch on the piles of scrolls will also cure quirks.
Quirk curing AFAIK:
Guaranteed
- Torch on piles of scrolls (warrens only, I think)
- Herbs on soothing coral (cove only)
- Holy water on eldritch altar.
NonGuaranteed
- Confession booth (I'm under the subjective impression that it works more often with religious classes, but I've not found it corroborated elsewhere.
- Sacrificial Stone
I mention this because it's handy to embark quirked heroes in safe-ish warrens or cove quests with the intention of purguing them rather than churning out cash at the sanitarium
Post by: LordPorkins on February 22, 2016, 10:26:28 am
Post by: gimli on February 22, 2016, 11:57:23 am
*edit*
When something like this happens, a specific picture should appear in-game. :D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bauglir on February 22, 2016, 12:47:42 pm
EDIT: this is unrelated, but occultists look damn good with a healing buff trinket like a chirurgeon's charm
saw a crit for 56 healing once, it was magnificent, especially since the target was at death's door at the time
Post by: LordPorkins on February 22, 2016, 12:57:18 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 22, 2016, 03:06:43 pm
So guys, i wanna as, another question: Which charcater is your facorite in terms of personality? Mines Jester and Bounty Hunter. Hunter because whenever he crits hes just "snort, no biggee, ive seen worse" and the jester because hes pretty much the Joker from Dark Knight. When i fought the last boss, he got powerful and just cackled as his allies crumbled. Hell be laughing still....in the end.
FM'LATGH, GRAH'N.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 22, 2016, 04:39:11 pm
UNEDUCATED SAVAGES!So guys, i wanna as, another question: Which charcater is your facorite in terms of personality? Mines Jester and Bounty Hunter. Hunter because whenever he crits hes just "snort, no biggee, ive seen worse" and the jester because hes pretty much the Joker from Dark Knight. When i fought the last boss, he got powerful and just cackled as his allies crumbled. Hell be laughing still....in the end.
FM'LATGH, GRAH'N.
Post by: Simon on February 23, 2016, 02:36:41 pm
I wanna make to love the narrator's voice.
Post by: redwallzyl on February 23, 2016, 09:17:52 pm
On a unrelated note, I've just realized what keeps me coming back.then you will love this:
I wanna make to love the narrator's voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77xxGopjMbY&index=14&list=PLCbN-op7qL6dg9T8S43Vb787nwYJRMViG
Post by: Spehss _ on February 23, 2016, 11:26:40 pm
then you will love this:Daaaaaaamn that's a pretty good playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77xxGopjMbY&index=14&list=PLCbN-op7qL6dg9T8S43Vb787nwYJRMViG
All the youtube comments are quotes from Darkest Dungeon. Heh.
Post by: Simon on February 24, 2016, 07:49:48 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 24, 2016, 08:02:41 am
(http://risovach.ru/upload/2013/05/mem/sirio-forel_20139198_orig_.jpeg)
Post by: gimli on February 24, 2016, 11:07:51 am
EDIT: this is unrelated, but occultists look damn good with a healing buff trinket like a chirurgeon's charm
saw a crit for 56 healing once, it was magnificent, especially since the target was at death's door at the time
Yep those crits can save a char or even the whole party.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
..but again, they have the tendency to
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 11:17:03 am
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 11:27:28 am
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 11:40:47 am
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 11:50:15 am
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 12:34:28 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 24, 2016, 01:16:23 pm
BTW remember that bleed gets stronger and more likely with more levels.
Post by: gimli on February 24, 2016, 02:51:58 pm
Post by: Ghazkull on February 24, 2016, 02:54:06 pm
Spoiler: Potential Spoilers (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 02:57:53 pm
Then again, I think Bleed in general is basically a joke until you reach the DD.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 03:09:35 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 03:11:46 pm
good gods the dankest dungeon levels are god awfully difficult...Spoiler: Potential Spoilers (click to show/hide)
I think they should have the heroes unavailable if they fail a mission, and they arent allowed to retry that mission. In exchange when the mission is accomplished, everyones relieved, and they get too go back. Or maybe have it be like a 50% chance to not go back.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 24, 2016, 03:13:54 pm
good gods the dankest dungeon levels are god awfully difficult...Spoiler: Potential Spoilers (click to show/hide)
They're going to fix the grinding. Getting upper level heroes directly will be easier.
Also, the veteran heroes are supposed to be useful because they give a 30% xp bonus to other heroes. So... in theory you could use them as companion mentors to other prospective heroes...
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 03:20:18 pm
Nope! Try the Cove. Enjoy getting your nards sliced in half by a giant crab. Have fun
That is like, the only bleed in the game short of the DD that is worth mentioning. Most other bleeds, including the OCC, are piddly even at the higher levels.
Post by: Bauglir on February 24, 2016, 03:25:03 pm
The bleed is a complete joke. Yeah, in terms of net hp gained/lost it's a consideration. A consideration completely invalidated by the first 10 pt heal he throws out.The bleed an Occultist throws out is actually potentially a threat, but mostly because the damage ticks can be deathblows. Desperate situations can make that a real problem in conjunction with a botched heal.
Then again, I think Bleed in general is basically a joke until you reach the DD.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 03:58:05 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 04:23:56 pm
Blight on the other hand....is a different story.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 05:49:11 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 24, 2016, 05:56:23 pm
-Refreshes.
-Stacks at a higher per point value than Bleed.
-Loses damage slower than bleed.
Post by: Bauglir on February 24, 2016, 06:44:40 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 24, 2016, 06:51:00 pm
Post by: Ghazkull on February 24, 2016, 06:55:04 pm
Quote
Also, the veteran heroes are supposed to be useful because they give a 30% xp bonus to other heroes. So... in theory you could use them as companion mentors to other prospective heroes...
...Does that mean i can take those guys on level one miss-actually let me try that. Welp no i can't i don't need a 30% bonus xp for my level five guys...by that point most of the grinding is done. If i could take the level sixes to low level missions though, that would make them very useful
Post by: Bauglir on February 24, 2016, 06:58:53 pm
Say you have 2 rounds left in a blight. If you land another round, that blights damage adds to the new blight, but the timer goes to 3 rounds.Yeah, the timer displays the longest duration of all the active effects. I am almost certain, though, that both Blight and Bleed expire after 3 rounds, so that in that example you'd have stacked Blight damage for 2 rounds, at which point the first would expire and only the latest would apply. Otherwise you could stack it indefinitely, and that's definitely not what happens. In boss battles, it tops out after 3 rounds and further applications just keep you level. I suppose I don't need to specify boss battles, but nothing else lives long enough.
And the Wiki agrees that the two are mechanically identical, so if I'm wrong on this that probably needs to be changed.
...Does that mean i can take those guys on level one miss-actually let me try that. Welp no i can't i don't need a 30% bonus xp for my level five guys...by that point most of the grinding is done. If i could take the level sixes to low level missions though, that would make them very usefulThe idea is that you'll take low-level heroes on missions that are too hard for them. The 30% XP bonus pays off a lot in this case. IIRC, a level 0 will jump straight to level 2 after one mission. It's extremely risky, though, and in no way makes up for the inconvenience of needing to train up new guys in the first place.
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 12:14:32 am
And it just seems more stuff is resistant to Bleed than to Blight.
Post by: Boltgun on February 25, 2016, 03:41:53 am
However, if you use DOT to bypass PROT, then blight wins.
Post by: gimli on February 25, 2016, 10:22:50 am
Post by: Spehss _ on February 25, 2016, 10:28:55 am
I find the biggest deciding factor for which dot I use depends on where my next mission is. For example, the fishdudes in cove and the undead skeletons in ruins tend to have low blight resist and higher bleed resist. While pigdudes in the warrens and various beasts in the weald have a low bleed resist and high blight resist.
Haven't been in the DD yet, so I have no idea what it's like there. :P
Post by: LordPorkins on February 25, 2016, 11:18:43 am
Terrible. Thats about the best summary that comes to mind.
Haven't been in the DD yet, so I have no idea what it's like there. :P
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 11:38:26 am
Post by: Blaze on February 25, 2016, 01:08:47 pm
Quote
Perhaps I can complete the game with 0 casualties.
Getaloadofthisguysmuganimeface.gif
Just don't forget those talismans of flame.
If you want a tiny bit of help: Don't bother bringing shovels and keys, load up on bandages, food, and torches, blight isn't as big an issue as bleed here. Stress however, is pretty big.
Post by: Bauglir on February 25, 2016, 01:28:19 pm
also i guarantee that DOTs don't decrease over time - if you're seeing that, it's because stacked effects are expiring one turn at a time
EDIT: Also, yes, Stress is a huge fucking deal.
Post by: Ghazkull on February 25, 2016, 01:47:14 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 02:40:15 pm
QuotePerhaps I can complete the game with 0 casualties.
Getaloadofthisguysmuganimeface.gif
Just don't forget those talismans of flame.
If you want a tiny bit of help: Don't bother bringing shovels and keys, load up on bandages, food, and torches, blight isn't as big an issue as bleed here. Stress however, is pretty big.
Wut?
On a Medium dungeon I've had no less than 4 Collapsed Walls before. 4. It averages 2. That's ~20 Stress and -20% life per you don't need to lose. Yeah, you can often avoid collapsed walls at the cost of additional torches and fights by finding an alternate path. I've just as often though gotten a medium or even a short that is just one long path where you can't avoid anything. If you do the math, the cost of a shovel is way, way less than the stress each guy picks up for digging through walls. Seems like a no-brainier to bring at least two shovels.
I always bring at least 1 key for the secret room. Usually 2 because there's always at least one locked curio in the dungeon.
I generally bring enough supplies to hit each curio at least once. I don't even bother bringing them for bandaging/curing because it just doesn't seem that necessary with good heals. Only in Champion dungeons have I felt the blight/bleed is threatening enough it warrants an out of combat bandage/cure, and that's only if combat will end before I can get another heal off.
Post by: Bauglir on February 25, 2016, 02:49:57 pm
In the DD, there are no curios, no collapsed walls, nothing. A game's final challenge is supposed to be an exam on everything the player has learned so far, bringing together all the elements of gameplay for a memorable climax. So apparently traps, curios, loot, procedurally-generated dungeons, and character growth were totally peripheral to the experience, and the REAL game was just losing a lot in battles because the RNG is an asshole.
I shouldn't be this surprised. Or, for that matter, this salty.
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 02:57:43 pm
@nenjin
In the DD, there are no curios, no collapsed walls, nothing. A game's final challenge is supposed to be an exam on everything the player has learned so far, bringing together all the elements of gameplay for a memorable climax. So apparently traps, curios, loot, procedurally-generated dungeons, and character growth were totally peripheral to the experience, and the REAL game was just losing a lot in battles because the RNG is an asshole.
I shouldn't be this surprised. Or, for that matter, this salty.
Oh I didn't realize that post was in reference just to the DD.
And yeah, I'm salty about it too. For all the hype of the DD, it doesn't deliver the way the rest of the game does. We didn't expect the biggest dungeon to not include half the shit that makes the other dungeons tick.
It's like, imagine if the final dungeon of FF6 was just a long corridor punctuated by a boss fight, and not the epic climb up Kefka's mountain of insanity. DD already has a problem with the dungeon seeming less like an environment and more like a series of tiles randomly stitched together. The DD just doubles down on that problem, despite all the wonderful aesthetics that support it.
Honestly, I expected running around the DD going crazy to be the equivalent of the game's NG+. Not this "I won't go back there" stuff, no matter how much sense it makes thematically.
Post by: Simon on February 25, 2016, 04:10:15 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 04:24:12 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 25, 2016, 05:06:29 pm
Post by: Simon on February 25, 2016, 05:38:36 pm
Well I guess it IS savescumming, you simply quit the game (Alt + F4) right at the moment you're about to receive a deathblow to one of your chars (quickly enough so he/she doesn't "finish" his/her turn dying). You run the game once more, hit continue, and the monster that was to deliver the killing blow is skipped. Continue ad nauseam.
Found out about it when I ragequit some time ago. Tried it out few more times, the skipping only occurs when one of your chars is about to be killed via force or stress. You probably meant this.
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2016, 05:48:07 pm
Seems way simpler to just savescum on a per mission basis. If the mission is fucked, reload, start the day over again. For Short/Medium runs, it's only about 20 minutes wasted.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 25, 2016, 05:55:53 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 27, 2016, 12:11:32 am
Uuuuuuuugh. Losing that leper hurts me emotionally. I'd grown fond of him, and his fellow leper. Both of them were from the same batch of recruits. The two of them were always in the same party, killing evil side by bandage-covered side. Watched them grow from lvl 0 peasants to lvl 4 masters. Rest in leprous pieces, Neland. Leperbro Osmont will miss you.
Shame I lost Dismas too. Guess I won't be getting that achievement in this save file.
Post by: gimli on February 27, 2016, 08:26:58 am
Post by: Blaze on February 27, 2016, 08:50:59 am
Post by: Bauglir on February 27, 2016, 01:14:27 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on February 27, 2016, 01:43:20 pm
Sweet Jesus, I cannot advise you strongly enough against bringing Lepers to the first mission.
A word of warning: the first boss of the DD is called the shuffling horror for a reason.
Assuming the shuffling horror is called shuffling because it shuffles parties, I would think lepers would be bad since they can't do anything unless they're in the first two ranks. So if they get moved hen that's wasted turns moving back.
Unless you're suggesting lepers since they have high move resist.
Post by: Bauglir on February 27, 2016, 04:17:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on February 27, 2016, 09:05:18 pm
I'm suggesting no Lepers, to be clear.Oh. Misread your earlier post. I english good.
Post by: Boltgun on March 12, 2016, 04:33:13 pm
Now to mention that Dismas had crit quirk, melee crit quirk and unholy slayer (which he lost after the run), duelist advance had him turn the entire enemies into dust. That'll teach em to try to focus on him.
In fact pair him with the antiquarian, and you'll double the chance to get ripostes with protect me.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 12, 2016, 05:12:29 pm
I just installed the new patch. Forget about the Antiquarian, the Highwayman got buffed into a new level of holy crap.I got a highwayman off the stagecoach (this is the version before antiquarian patch) that had the slugger perk that gives +15% melee damage and his camping skill unparalleled finesse, which gives dodge, speed, and damage and accuracy to his melee attacks for 4 fights. Made a melee based build with wicked slice, open vein, duelist's advance, and tracking shot for a self buff and to let him do (chip) damage to back ranks. Works pretty good aside from being limited to targeting the first two ranks for his two main dps attacks (open vein and wicked slice).
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2016, 01:53:55 pm
Quote
- New Class: Antiquarian!
- New Stage Coach upgrade tree: higher level heroes to recruit!
- Quest Rewards: Heirloom type is no longer tied to each region. Instead, a random heirloom reward is generated for each individual quest.
- Heirloom Exchange: trade heirlooms in town! You lose a little in each trade, but this is a quick fix to get that upgrade you really need.
- reduced deed costs in blacksmith
Since then a couple of hotfixes tweaked some minor issues, but c'mon, this is big. You sure can't say the devs don't listen to the peepz.
Now let's give this another soul-breaking, heart-attack-inducing try.
Post by: miljan on March 15, 2016, 01:59:21 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on March 15, 2016, 02:13:11 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on March 15, 2016, 07:23:14 pm
Finally all these excess crests I get can be put to good use.
Post by: nenjin on March 15, 2016, 07:38:26 pm
Guys. You can now exchange heirlooms. There's a little rotating arrow symbol by the heirloom counts in the hamlet screen. You can trade a number of one kind of heirloom to get 1 of another kind of heirloom. For example, 3 crests to get 1 deed or 1 bust.
Finally all these excess crests I get can be put to good use.
Thank. Freaking. God. Finally you can run other dungeons and still make appreciable progress toward an unlock you need, rather than just having to throw guys into the meatgrinder to pass the week. While it's certainly a gamey solution, I'll take it.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 15, 2016, 08:02:38 pm
If you're playing an old save, you'll need to pass a week so the game can load new mission rewards for the change to take effect.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 15, 2016, 08:36:13 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on March 15, 2016, 09:11:40 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on March 15, 2016, 09:59:27 pm
Post by: askovdk on March 16, 2016, 03:40:34 am
Can you get antiquarians in old saves? I've done something like 4 missions in a row now and haven't gotten a single one from the cart, with 5 heroes a week.
Yes, I'm still playing my first game and have just enlisted a first antiquarian, but it took some time for her to show up in the random rotation.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 16, 2016, 01:13:00 pm
It seems like she's trying to be a jack of all trades support character, when those support roles can be better filled by other classes. If I need a healer I could take a vestal, or an arbalest who can do damage as well as heal. If I wanted to use dodge buffing as a tactic I could take a man-at-arms, who also can do damage. If I wanted to use blight I'd take a plague doctor and/or an abomination for blight resistance debuffs. If I wanted to debuff enemy accuracy I could use a man-at-arms or an arbalest, both of whom have aoe debuffs and can do damage as well.
I don't see why I would want to take an antiquarian along. I suppose the camping skill that gives a trinket could be nice, depending on how good of trinkets they drop. I guess making a party of 4 antiquarians to a low level mission with camping, set up camp asap, use all their trinket skills, then cancel the mission when all campfires are used up and sell all the trinkets in the hamlet. But that sounds really scummy.
Post by: miljan on March 16, 2016, 01:29:39 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 16, 2016, 02:00:05 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 02:39:42 pm
I'd probably not bring her along onto anything that isn't a short dungeon though. Due to stash constraints and supply needs the impact of her bonus is bound to be less, whereas her lack of firepower will be more noticeable
Post by: Blaze on March 16, 2016, 04:08:47 pm
Aside from PM! and IV skills though, her skill set is more lackluster than it needs to be. Flashpowder and Get Down are inferior to IV, the first because it doesn't need to pass debuff resist and the second because it targets the whole party. Festering vapors just ekes out a win against nervous stab since you're generally only dealing 1-2 damage with her low damage anyway. Fortifying vapors is a 1hp heal so I don't know why anyone would bother using it except as a last-ditch deathblow preventer.
If they made it so she could ignore Resolve level dungeon restrictions she'd be a lot more useful. Unless you're planning to do some meta like taking 4 of her into a long dungeon to camp and trinket scrounge before abandoning.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 16, 2016, 06:14:21 pm
Quote from: devlog
Removed ability to use Firewood while in the middle of camping, thus starting a new camp. You can no longer camp, while you camp, even though you all like to camp.
Didn't notice that Antiquarian's invigorating vapours targets the entire party. Makes her slightly more useful than I thought.
The protection buff from "Protect Me!" looks pretty good. except that my experience with protection is that enemies will prioritize targets that don't have protection over enemies that do. So rather than have a guy with high protection tank, you have a guy with high protection who drives the enemies into attacking other targets.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 06:44:25 pm
At any rate, all the "guard" skills are good insofar they reduce the number of viable targets in your group. They are DOUBLY good if the "guarder" is a character with riposte (notice that the only way a HWM can guard is via the antiquarian's skill. The one other character who can guard and riposte is the MAA, which it can do in a rather convenient fashion alternating both skills.... the only issue being that the MAA's guard ally only boosts prot, not dodge. I tend to prefer dodge tanks ever since they nerfed prot. Prot's good, but no longer godlike. All things considered, if you're going to be taking another character's hits, it's better to use dodge than prot. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread houndmaster dodge tanks. I tried them and they are very satsifying)
Post by: Spehss _ on March 16, 2016, 08:57:32 pm
Lost another leper. Was going to fight the necromancer lord. Didn't even reach the boss. The leper gets hit by a couple unlucky crits by undead and gets knocked to death's door. Next turn the skeleton cleric with the chalice gets the first move and kills my leper by throwing wine in his face. First hit while on death's door, and he's dead. Of course. He was a champion at lvl 6, too. Had to abandon the quest after that, he was one of the party's main dps dealers.
My two leper bros are reunited (in death) at last.
Post by: Blaze on March 16, 2016, 09:03:46 pm
So many crits... Walked away with ~14,000 extra gold. Health did get somewhat dicey though.
1. The antiquarian's gold buff does stack, with two that makes 2500 gold per stack.
2. Any treasure spots seem to always drop at least one of their unique treasures (minor/major antique 275/1000 gold, minor antiques stack to 20). Torch sconces seem to be an exception though.
3. PM! buff does stack. (I took a Bloodletter's point blank shot for 2 damage)
4. Nervous stab is surprisingly accurate. The darkness crit buff made it moderately more effective than festering vapors. (Though the manslayer's ring from trinket scrounge probably added to it.)
I think protection is more useful than dodge. Protection is guaranteed to reduce physical damage, while stacking tons of dodge doesn't guarantee that characters avoid damage. By stacking up dodge they should have good chances to dodge, maybe, hopefully, but rng is rng and shit can go wrong real fast.I find that dodge becomes unreliable at higher difficulties, enemy attacks are just too accurate at that point. That, and it means you'll be going max torch or else the boost becomes rather meaningless.
Lost another leper. Was going to fight the necromancer lord. Didn't even reach the boss. The leper gets hit by a couple unlucky crits by undead and gets knocked to death's door. Next turn the skeleton cleric with the chalice gets the first move and kills my leper by throwing wine in his face. First hit while on death's door, and he's dead. Of course. He was a champion at lvl 6, too. Had to abandon the quest after that, he was one of the party's main dps dealers.
My two leper bros are reunited (in death) at last.
Oof, too bad about your loss. I once lost a bounty hunter in the first fight in a cove; a double crit octocestus/seaward slash and then died from the bleed.
Sometimes when the game wants to murder you it just does and you can't do anything about it.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 16, 2016, 09:38:39 pm
Tried an apprentice medium Weald Dark run, double antiquarian, double highwayman. Both highwaymen had a dark bracer and moon ring, antiquarians had a single SPD trinket (Fleet florin and Quick Draw Charm, use trinket scrounge for the other slot). The idea was to PM! asap, and then have the HWM use Duelist Advance. Brought lots of food as I didn't have any healers.
So many crits... Walked away with ~14,000 extra gold. Health did get somewhat dicey though.
1. The antiquarian's gold buff does stack, with two that makes 2500 gold per stack.
2. Any treasure spots seem to always drop at least one of their unique treasures (minor/major antique 275/1000 gold, minor antiques stack to 20). Torch sconces seem to be an exception though.
3. PM! buff does stack. (I took a Bloodletter's point blank shot for 2 damage)
4. Nervous stab is surprisingly accurate. The darkness crit buff made it moderately more effective than festering vapors. (Though the manslayer's ring from trinket scrounge probably added to it.)
Neat. I tried a party of an antiquarian, a vestal, and two highwaymen in the front. Antiquarian basically spammed vapours for stacking dodge, vestal healed, and highwaymen mostly shot or stabbed stuff. Didn't really like it, the highwaymen were squishy and had a hard time dealing with enemies in the back rows, the dodging buffs from the antiquarian didn't do much, and vestal was meh at healing. I didn't try using riposte. Then again they were all level 0 with no artifacts.
I want to think the antiquarian is useful for a defensive support role with the dodge and protection bonuses. Maybe an antiquarian and man-at-arms, or antiquarian and highwayman with riposte. I think for any kind of defensive party a dots dealer is a must, either a plague doctor or a houndmaster to apply blight or bleed. But in higher missions it seems a healer (probably vestal) is essential for survival.
So my theoretical tank party using an antiquarian already has a 3 slots filled, with the antiquarian, a healer, and a damage-over-time dealer. I guess a man-at-arms at the front for tanking for the squishier heroes. Doesn't seem like it would work. Vestal doesn't output much damage as a healer, antiquarian is there to provide buffs, plague doctor deals good dots but is squishy, houndmaster can deal good damage and bleed but is also squishy, and a man-at-arms tank has to keep activating riposte and will mostly deal damage if enemies attack him, which isn't guaranteed.
I wonder if the antiquarian could use "protect me" on another hero, then have the man-at-arms protect the hero that's guarding the antiquarian. So if a monster attacks the antiq or the guarded hero, it attacks the man-at-arms, and triggers riposte. That's 3/4 party members covered.
Post by: Blaze on March 16, 2016, 10:10:20 pm
Arbalest, Antiquarian, Houndmaster, DPS (Bounty hunter seems likely due to marking capability, though a leper can fit).
Essentially, Arbalest uses suppressing fire to lower enemy accuracy or do damage, houndmaster guard dog's the DPS, antiquarian PM!'s the houndmaster or even flashing powder to further reduce enemy accuracy, and the front DPS does their thing.
The houndmaster's dodge would skyrocket, letting him dodge most attacks (He'd be 100+ after the second round, even higher with dodge trinkets; ancestor coat is +15). Since guard dog lasts 3 turns, they could protect both the Arbalest and BH or just mark the target. This is in addition to the Protection buff from the antiquarian.
You could do something similar with the man at arms replacing the HM. Crt/DMG trinkets for the MAA, he defends one character and gets PM!'d by the antiquarian. Those two alone would push him to 50% protection in the first round at level 1 (Dunno about the antiquarian, but he gets 45% protection at level 5; antiquarian is 32% at level 3). 75% of non-AOE attacks would be redirected to the MAA who's prot would soak it up and he'd riposte for crits to negate stress damage.
It's a bit slower as he has to riposte before guarding, but the damage should more than make up for it. There's also the issue of bleed/blight stacks, so you'll need bandages/antidotes. You might possibly switch out the arbalest for a plague doctor, since that'll both prevent the DoT damage and slow down the enemy with blinding powder while you get your riposte/guard up. You can replace the front DPS with a leper or something, maybe even a hellion for YAWP to stun the front row.
Edit: Looks like PM! overrides the original defender target, so this all goes out the window. And no, using PM! on a defended target doesn't redirect it to the MAA.
Let's theorize:
Man-at-arms, antiquarian, 2xDPS. All at level 5/6.
Man-at-arms gets Guardian shield for +10% prot in the back row. (Tough ring might be better and can work at any row though).
Man-at-arms guards 1 DPS, protection is now 55%.
Antiquarian uses PM! (Estimated at 40% at level 5?) For 95% protection.
Hard-Skinned (Quirk) would push that to 100% Or any other protection trinkets really.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 17, 2016, 01:50:53 am
Stress was an issue during a long mission but I managed to handle it via camping.
It's really satisfying to go up against enemies with aoe attacks and watch the man-at-arms and highwayman counterattack in unison.
I am looooving the antiquarian's treasure finding ability. Got 22,000 gold out of a long ruins mission. She's proving to be pretty good at buffs, too. Or at least she doesn't seem as much of a dead weight as I first thought. This may be a result of man-at-arms' and highwayman's ripostes making up for her lack of dps.
Post by: askovdk on March 30, 2016, 01:43:09 pm
However, it gave me a business idea, so let me present:
Free to play Darkest Dungeon!
Everything as in the current buy to play except for an additional feature:
Everything as in the current buy to play except for an additional feature:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a theoretical level I find the idea 'interesting'. - I don't like it, but exactly how would it be bad? Nobody forces you to buy revival gems, and if you don't, then you get the current game for free.
(Hmm, with such a business model many people would be suspecious of the crushing increase in difficulty, - i.e. it would feel like a scam about getting players to invest time in their heroes, and then the game kills the heroes to pull real money. >:( )
Post by: Bauglir on March 30, 2016, 01:59:50 pm
Post by: Blaze on March 30, 2016, 04:16:03 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on March 30, 2016, 04:25:39 pm
Are suggesting....
DD should go freemium...
Dude. No. Just. No.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 30, 2016, 04:52:33 pm
Post by: Aoi on March 30, 2016, 07:40:06 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 30, 2016, 11:12:53 pm
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2016, 01:49:32 am
I somehow want to amend the thread title for this lark, but I don't have the room to not put in something that would have people popping in going "WHAT?!?!"Do it like a Gawker headline.
Dankest Dungeon Free 2 Pay Possible?! You Won't Believe How They Could Do It!
Post by: Boltgun on March 31, 2016, 02:51:44 am
Also, revives get more expensive each time and there's a risk of failure that steadily increases. Normal failure just fails... critical failure makes them permanently dead. Or a really expensive guaranteed revive. At any time, there's also a different purchase that'll reset the cost and failure rates, but those are pricy too.
I'm already not a fan of micropayment but dice rolls micropayments should be plain illegal.
Btw, met the siren. She did nothing. NOTHING. Boo!
Post by: LordPorkins on March 31, 2016, 08:21:47 am
Post by: Bauglir on March 31, 2016, 10:55:21 am
I don't think it's really necessary, though.
Post by: Boltgun on April 01, 2016, 03:44:57 am
Post by: askovdk on April 01, 2016, 07:32:01 am
....you...
Are suggesting....
DD should go freemium...
Dude. No. Just. No.
:) I fully agree, but as a thought experiment I found it wicked to play with.
The interface in DD it fitting for a tablet game, so the producer just needs a way to cover the expenses ... but yes, - let us not go there. ;)
Post by: Spehss _ on May 19, 2016, 02:27:34 pm
Quote from: devlog
TOWN EVENTS – bonus recruits, extra supplies, facility closures, and more! Each event is presented with unique key art and commentary by the Narrator (Wayne June), and many are supported with additional in-game art. Be warned, The Hamlet is not as safe as it once was… (Note: you can adjust the frequence of Town Events in the OPTIONS menu, although they are mandatory for NG+)
Post by: Blaze on May 19, 2016, 05:19:51 pm
Presumably, the medicine quest reduces the prices of treatment in the sanitarium, the holy relics quest reduces the prices in the abbey, the Cove relics quest for the nomad wagon, and so on.
So there's a slightly better reason to do those activate/fetch quests.
Quote
Added a Default Party Order Button, find it on your Map in a dungeon!Yay.
Quote
Trap disarm tooltip in tray now takes difficulty into account to accurately display chance.If only that could quell the infinite rage of watching my characters fail a 110% trap disarm chance.
Post by: Fniff on May 19, 2016, 06:55:18 pm
Here's the idea: have the last building to unlock be the Scholar's Garret. She can bring the dead back to life... at a terrible cost.
Also a monetary cost. You should probably worry about that first.
Basically, you can resurrect any of your adventurers for a variable amount of gold (depending on their level) and with a sacrifice of another equal-level adventurer. The sacrificed adventurer cannot be brought back to life, so choose wisely.
The upgrade tracks would be 'Arcane Knowledge' (Reduces gold cost of resurrection) and 'Negotiation Skills' (Allows you to use adventurers of lower level).
It could also cost more depending on how old the adventurer it is; the longer they've been dead the harder it is to drag them back.
Post by: Blaze on May 19, 2016, 10:04:25 pm
Spoiler: Well now (click to show/hide)
Post by: Spehss _ on May 19, 2016, 10:07:34 pm
Nice estate name, Blaze.
Post by: nenjin on May 19, 2016, 11:41:47 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 11:44:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 20, 2016, 12:01:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Boltgun on May 20, 2016, 03:53:34 am
Post by: SalmonGod on June 29, 2016, 12:12:53 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 29, 2016, 09:15:08 am
It would be like starving to death only to be revived to starve to death once more :P
Post by: Aoi on June 29, 2016, 11:30:36 pm
It seems to have brought him back with nearly maxed-out stress, but I agree. Life in this world is horrible and traumatic and people who come back from the dead should never be the same again (at least not without some very expensive therapy).
On the other hand, with life in there being what it is, death may have come as a blessed respite.
Post by: LordPorkins on July 01, 2016, 04:55:11 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 02, 2016, 05:43:30 am
It seems to have brought him back with nearly maxed-out stress, but I agree. Life in this world is horrible and traumatic and people who come back from the dead should never be the same again (at least not without some very expensive therapy).
On the other hand, with life in there being what it is, death may have come as a blessed respite.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SalmonGod on August 10, 2016, 08:36:12 pm
Post by: Fniff on August 14, 2016, 10:48:26 am
Post by: LordPorkins on August 14, 2016, 11:04:17 am
"Imma gonna hit youz with a stick!"
*Thwock, one damage*
*My Crusader blinks.*
Also, spooky scary skeletons spill spirits that make you shriek. Best prepare for Bone Nobles steal your sanity tonight!
Post by: SalmonGod on August 14, 2016, 06:36:38 pm
They all died of heart attacks
Post by: SalmonGod on August 15, 2016, 02:18:01 pm
I'm hoping to beat this game by the end of the week. Looking forward to that, I did a bit of reading to see if New Game+ would be worth checking out. While reading, noticed curious reference to something called "Pitch Black Dungeon". Did a Google search for it that led me directly to a darkest dungeon section on nexus with dozens of mods. Raise your hand if, like me, you had no clue? Pitch Black looks pretty neat at a glance. I think I'll be trying it after I beat vanilla.
Post by: LordPorkins on August 15, 2016, 02:30:06 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on August 16, 2016, 10:42:00 am
Post by: Frumple on August 16, 2016, 11:56:55 am
Post by: SalmonGod on August 16, 2016, 03:13:14 pm
Post by: Blaze on August 16, 2016, 04:18:59 pm
2. Obtain vestal of any level.
3. Make a party with that vestal at the very back that includes a DD Torchbearer; a MAA if possible.
4. Equip vestal with Ancestor's Portrait and Junia's head or Stun Amulet.
5. Go through bonus-enhanced area in a veteran quest (Champion is also possible, but much more difficult), treating the vestal as a slightly more effective antiquarian.
Post by: nenjin on August 16, 2016, 07:23:50 pm
Trying desperately to push on, but all of my healers are dead. My last occultist died to the shuffling horror. It's been 10 weeks or so, and not a single lvl 3 vestal or occultist has arrived on the stagecoach. And if I recruit a novice, I then have to recruit a whole team of novices to level them up. This is getting really annoying.
Pretty much this is what dissuades me from playing more of it. I'm ok losing guys. But not this catch-22 "Zerg into the dungeon to pass the week" shit.
Post by: SalmonGod on August 16, 2016, 07:50:55 pm
Trying desperately to push on, but all of my healers are dead. My last occultist died to the shuffling horror. It's been 10 weeks or so, and not a single lvl 3 vestal or occultist has arrived on the stagecoach. And if I recruit a novice, I then have to recruit a whole team of novices to level them up. This is getting really annoying.
Pretty much this is what dissuades me from playing more of it. I'm ok losing guys. But not this catch-22 "Zerg into the dungeon to pass the week" shit.
Yeah... healing is essential to surviving higher level medium/long quests... but there are only two effective healers out of a large cast of characters... It's the ONLY balance gripe I have found in dozens of hours of play.
Post by: LordPorkins on August 17, 2016, 12:52:51 pm
However, I will admit that at around 4+ level the other healers start to drop off. But seriously tho. Those Fuckin Arterial Pinches man. Mein Gott.
Also, why does everyone hate on Bounty Hunters? I've had one do 35 damage in a single hit. Take note that this was NOT a Crit. Cries I've had go up to I think 63. Plus his camp buffs are awesome.
Post by: Sirus on August 17, 2016, 09:30:43 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on August 17, 2016, 10:16:47 pm
And yeah... I try to always take a bounty hunter against any human boss.
Post by: nenjin on August 18, 2016, 12:27:43 am
Post by: Frumple on August 18, 2016, 02:07:05 pm
Rest of the self-heals look kinda' shite in the health department, though. Good for other stuff, but that raw HP gain that means you need an actual healer less, not so much. Abomination seems to be the next best on that front, and, well...
Spending time healing instead of attacking is a thing, but that applies just as much to that dedicated healer. Just have something hurty where you'd normally have the healer, heh.
Post by: SalmonGod on August 18, 2016, 04:25:58 pm
At least this is my experience being near the end of my first playthrough.
Post by: Frumple on August 19, 2016, 09:10:18 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on August 20, 2016, 11:34:52 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on August 23, 2016, 12:40:41 am
*sighs*... that had become a bit of an obsession.
Edit:
And now... Pitch Black Dungeon is pretty interesting.
Post by: nenjin on June 20, 2017, 05:25:56 pm
Still haven't beaten DD ever. Not that I can't, I just run out of team after the hero grind from 3 to 5, trying to do all the dungeon bosses before tackling the DD. I'll get there, one day.
Post by: Sindain on June 20, 2017, 06:52:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on June 20, 2017, 07:07:33 pm
Post by: Blaze on June 22, 2017, 12:39:23 pm
Anyone figure out how to get blueprints for district stuff?
Post by: Sindain on June 22, 2017, 02:21:28 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on June 22, 2017, 02:44:32 pm
So I used the item that any logical person would use
"SHOVEL-SMAAAAACK"
Unfortunately, that didn't work. But the mental image made the later butt-rape of my party much more tolerable.
Edit: I was mucking about on the Interwebs and I found this. http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/king+crimson/the+court+of+the+crimson+king_20078591.html
I'm not sure if the songs got any relevance, but it's got some striking parallels (I.E. Flowers, outside forces controlling the actions of others, reference to a "King and Queen" that seem similar to the Baron and the Countess bosses.)
Post by: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 07:56:34 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on July 23, 2017, 08:34:24 pm
I've played a little Pitch Black Dungeon, and from what I can tell it's a better experience if you're just looking for more out of the game.
Post by: Sindain on July 23, 2017, 09:28:49 pm
I haven't had any real issues with blood or curse management, and there's a lot of new content between the new dungeon and enemies, all of which I've enjoyed. tbh I can't think of any complaints I have against the DLC.
Also I've noticed that steam reviews for DLC tend to much much lower than they are for games, so personally I tend to mentally bump dlc up a level or two when looking at the reviews. And overall reviews for Crimson Court are at "mostly positive" right now, which is pretty solid by my metric. (though obviously all the top reviews are negative).
Though I've been a fan of Darkest Dungeon even at it's worst, so its no surprise I like it.
Post by: nenjin on July 23, 2017, 10:12:27 pm
So when you see the red reviews sitting at the top just bear that in mind and read critically and compare against your own game experiences. I haven't played the DLC but my guess is people don't like having their carefully arranged parties upended by curses.
Personally most of my complaints with DD went away once I started save scumming. I wish developers would get past needing enforce that particular challenge in their games. Build your game as hardcore as you want it, then let people manage their saves if they want. People that want it hardcore will play it hardcore, people want the tedium of reloading saves can do it if they want.
Post by: SalmonGod on July 23, 2017, 10:15:51 pm
Still... There is a major overhaul mod that's pretty damn interesting to play while I wait for the DLC to go on sale.
Post by: Teneb on July 24, 2017, 09:59:46 am
The curse can also spread via stress-relief activities if you put a cursed character there, but actually using those activities is not exactly the best idea because the best way to relieve stress is to just take the high-stress character to a run with a jester.
One of the complaints I've seen is that people run out of blood or get wrecked by the first courtyard dungeon. Just put it off until you got a good supply of blood items back at the village and have a full party of level 2s.
Meanwhile, the Flagellant is OP as fuck. He can apply ludicrous amounts of bleed and can heal both himself and others for most of their health.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2017, 12:28:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 20, 2017, 05:04:42 pm
The thing about the Crimson Curse is that people get too attached to their characters. Once you got the curse, you are pretty much on the clock until you defeat one of the DLC bosses.I... don't actually feel I´m in trouble. I get blood hunt quests often enough to keep all my infected heroes well provided.
And, well, I kick out of the roster any uninteresting infected hero, that too.
Quote
The curse can also spread via stress-relief activities if you put a cursed character there, but actually using those activities is not exactly the best idea because the best way to relieve stress is to just take the high-stress character to a run with a jester.Or quarantine. ANd mind you, some chars can benefit from the curse. Most notably meleers.
Quote
Meanwhile, the Flagellant is OP as fuck. He can apply ludicrous amounts of bleed and can heal both himself and others for most of their health.
Agreed
TBH I bring him along more because of the heal than the bleed, at this point.
Only one flagellant allowed per group, though, so it´s not wise to stock up on them. I think two or three are more than enough.
Post by: nenjin on November 10, 2017, 07:36:32 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/NUVpK4zl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/NUVpK4z)
Was damn pricey but looking at it now, it was worth it.
Oh also I suppose it's worth mentioning the Shield Breaker DLC has been out for a while. Some sort of turban'd lady assassin type with a spear and shield.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 10, 2017, 08:50:21 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 10, 2017, 08:57:39 pm
Post by: The_Explorer on November 10, 2017, 10:49:26 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 10, 2017, 10:53:48 pm
Environment variety ++
Dank voice acting variety ++
Character class variety +
Trinket and gear variety +
Overall gameplay loop variety =
Think of it as a fairly extensive rogue like board game with great styling and you won't go in with many false assumptions.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 11, 2017, 01:17:56 am
Personally, I'm fine with it and when I'm in the mood for a nice dark, atmospheric game it is one of my go-tos.
Post by: Retropunch on November 11, 2017, 09:14:23 am
How is darkest dungeons? Worth the buy? Is it repetitive at all or is there a lot of variety?
Yeah, it's got a lot going for it, but you have to be able to put up with the RNG. Unlike games like DCSS, DF and most roguelikes, you can basically prepare for RNG, whereas DD sometimes just smashes you regardless.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 11, 2017, 10:37:52 am
So it's not quite as bad as some roguelikes in the sense that a really bad run of RNG generally won't make you start over from the beginning.
Post by: Retropunch on November 11, 2017, 02:51:41 pm
I will note that, as it involves you building up a large roster of characters, DD can have terrible dungeon runs happen but rarely anything campaign ending. At worst you throw some newbies into the dungeon in the dark a few times to build up money before cycling them out and building up a proper team again. Even though parties can wipe you don't lose all the upgrades you've done to town so it is easier to train/equip new recruits as time goes on.
So it's not quite as bad as some roguelikes in the sense that a really bad run of RNG generally won't make you start over from the beginning.
Agreed, I think it's more just demoralising than being game ending. It's the feeling that you literally couldn't have prevented a party wipe/awful run regardless of how you'd prepared which can get a bit annoying - it depends how much patience you have for that.
Post by: nenjin on November 12, 2017, 04:45:03 pm
Post by: Aoi on November 14, 2017, 06:34:13 pm
Now, what DOES really bother me is that some battles practically require advance knowledge of how the encounter works to have a fighting chance, whether that means sending in a sacrificial team to scout it out, fleeing the first time, or just plain ol' looking it up.
Post by: nenjin on November 14, 2017, 07:04:37 pm
Anyone care to hazard a guess why the Wayne June-ing in The Crimson Court DLC just sounds patently awful compared to the base game? In the base game Wayne June sounds crisp, clear, articulate.
In the Crimson Court DLC, he sounds like he's in a fishbowl, 6 feet from the mic and he's physically struggling to enunciate words. Like his whole body is clenching up when he tries to get out a sibilant word like "soothing."
The disconnect between the main game VOs and the CC VOs is so jarring it rips me out of game every time I hear it. Think they went with a different recording studio this time, or is Wayne June struggling? Or both? Either way, man it sounds like ass. If I had an option to turn off non-essential CC voice overs, I'd do it.
Post by: Sirus on December 28, 2017, 04:53:27 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 28, 2017, 08:30:41 pm
Some masochist has added mimics to Darkest Dungeon. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1232771625&searchtext=)Jesus Christ how stressful
Post by: LordPorkins on December 29, 2017, 05:10:52 pm
Some masochist has added mimics to Darkest Dungeon. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1232771625&searchtext=)
I really hope using a shovel on a mimic chest lets you just beat the snot out of it without fighting it
Post by: Stuebi on December 31, 2017, 03:45:53 pm
Recently I installed it via a friends account and it finally worked. And in retrospect I'm reall friggin glad I didnt end up spending money for it. It's like they looked at the very worst parts of the game and just made them infinitely worse. Don't get me wrong, the good parts are still good. The music and the monster designs are stellar (Even tough the fact that the Court enemies appear everywhere else does it's best to make them go tired faster) and I could still listen to the narrator for literal hours. But everything else is really awful.
The Crimson Curse itself adds another layer of needless grind, especially since I never feel safe taking any afflicted Heroes with me unless I got a comfy amount lying around. There is absolutely nothing worse than characters taking random actions in DD, to the point that I'd rather have a button that just kills afflicted heroes instantly and leaves me with only 3, but obedient guys to go further. The droprate on blood feels terrible, altough with this game it might just be RNG giving me the finger.
All in all, it has the exact same issue the base game has, just worse. It confuses difficulty with RNG. DD is, with the possible exception of the last Dungeon that has a whole other set of issues, not hard at all. It's a dice roll. Crimson Court just highlights even harder how bad it really is. I don't know how many runs I had to abandon, not because I made some mistake, but because the game just didnt feel like letting me proceed. The curse especially just amplifies the tedious grind towards the midgame, because now it's not just death that might force you to level a new Team, but also that stupid friggin curse, that applies EVERY. TIME. I have an encounter against Count Dicey and his merry band of furious mosquito-zombies.
It's a shame, I really just wanted to get a look at the new bosses. But I finally lost my last nerve after the encounter below (SPOILERS).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordPorkins on January 05, 2018, 03:01:43 pm
Always go on the defense for the first round or two against a brand new boss. They always have tricks up their sleeve.
Post by: Wiles on January 25, 2018, 10:10:46 am
Is there a good way to adequately prepare for the third tier of dungeon? I know the game can be RNG heavy, but I feel like it's more that I am doing something wrong than I am being unlucky because I always get completely smashed fairly quickly once I send in my level 5 heroes to those dungeons.
Post by: Kagus on January 25, 2018, 05:13:08 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2018, 07:07:01 pm
Any tips for surviving the mid-late game? When I play Darkest Dungeon I tend to lose interest at that point in the game after a few soulcrushing defeats. I try to press on, but after losing my best heroes and trinkets I feel disheartened and lose interest in playing after floundering around for a while.
Is there a good way to adequately prepare for the third tier of dungeon? I know the game can be RNG heavy, but I feel like it's more that I am doing something wrong than I am being unlucky because I always get completely smashed fairly quickly once I send in my level 5 heroes to those dungeons.
Well for one you can use the Kickstarter trinkets. Lose em? Just take em back. Is it really cheating if they put a in-game system to retrieve them at will? There's many Kickstarter trinkets created in such a way to effectively have no downsides and a great stat spread.
DD is one of those games I gave up on trying to enjoy as designed. I play it the way that allows me to see what the game has to offer, and cheat when it's going to bum my ass out and make me quit playing.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2018, 11:04:34 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 27, 2018, 02:48:54 pm
Any tips for surviving the mid-late game? When I play Darkest Dungeon I tend to lose interest at that point in the game after a few soulcrushing defeats. I try to press on, but after losing my best heroes and trinkets I feel disheartened and lose interest in playing after floundering around for a while.I really think the game should just kill you if you lose all your high level characters. The way Xcom does. It doesn't make sense to have a game where the player can lose everything, but have no loss condition.
Is there a good way to adequately prepare for the third tier of dungeon? I know the game can be RNG heavy, but I feel like it's more that I am doing something wrong than I am being unlucky because I always get completely smashed fairly quickly once I send in my level 5 heroes to those dungeons.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 27, 2018, 06:48:21 pm
Which makes sense, because it's not really you, the player character, who is in danger. You'll just find some more fools to go in.
Post by: Kagus on January 28, 2018, 06:49:03 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 28, 2018, 06:32:07 pm
Well, unless you're playing on Stygian or something, in which case everything's already become too dangerous for them to do and you just hit the endgame timer before you can really get up to speed again.Or you unlock the gitgud matrix and solo the HoD with an antiquarian. Swear down you see people doing the most insane of strats and I can barely keep my dudes from getting heart attacks every time they stub their toe, it's absolutely stressful
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 29, 2018, 01:17:51 pm
yeah I post on game threads I haven't played in a while, sue me
Post by: Aoi on January 29, 2018, 08:31:40 pm
Oooh, what is this Stygian difficulty with a timer? That sounds like exactly my speed, I should get back into this game.
yeah I post on game threads I haven't played in a while, sue me
It basically locks the game on hardest settings, plus a few other things... and, since I don't remember if it actually warns you:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on May 29, 2018, 02:04:05 pm
The Color of Madness is a play on The Color Out Of Space story by HP Lovecraft. It's kind of perfect as the topic for an expansion.
The DLC will add a new region to the map, the Farmstead.
4 New Buildings to upgrade in the hamlet.
There will be an "Endless Quest" where you play on and on and on, trying to reach "the Comet." Not sure how that jives with DD being a permadeath game but....
Three new bosses. New Trinkets. New Curios. New Quirks.
Spoiler: Features (click to show/hide)
Looking forward to it! Darkest Dungeon is reaching Binding of Isaac levels of content for me. There's simply more to the game than I will probably ever see or unlock. That's a good problem to have!
Post by: Retropunch on May 31, 2018, 12:04:05 pm
As such, is there much about any changes to mechanics/more mechanical changes than just content?
Post by: nenjin on May 31, 2018, 03:50:48 pm
Post by: Kagus on June 01, 2018, 03:18:21 am
The RNG was just too high
Helo? Is time for snek?
Post by: LordPorkins on June 01, 2018, 10:19:47 am
it's absolutely stressful
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: pisskop on June 01, 2018, 10:25:55 am
Post by: nenjin on June 01, 2018, 10:33:52 am
Post by: pisskop on June 01, 2018, 10:38:38 am
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 01, 2018, 03:32:49 pm
I'm undecided about this. I like Red Hook, so I'll probably give them some money.
Post by: nenjin on June 12, 2018, 12:13:52 am
I got an email from Redhook today saying that I will be getting a free key for Color of Madness.
I'll just post the "why" here:
Quote
We have, after lengthy consideration, decided to make The Musketeer DLC available free to all owners of Darkest Dungeon, effective on release of The Color of Madness DLC on June 19th (on Steam).
As you know, The Musketeer has been an Adventurer-Tier Kickstarter Exclusive. Since her release, we’ve honored that exclusivity and have publicly maintained the position that we had no plans to release the class to non-backers, regardless of how much money people were willing to pay!
The reality is, counterfeit mods of the class already exist, and it’s impossible to effectively prevent those from being distributed. Ultimately, as we move forward with our follow-up title, we feel that releasing this class to the larger community will add richness to the game, increasing value to all who own it.
We hope that you’ve enjoyed the lengthy period of exclusivity, and that you understand our desire to leave the game in as good a shape as we can. We’re pleased to offer you a free code for the “The Color of Madness” DLC in order to preserve the value of your pledge. Your game code for The Color of Madness will be sent out via BACKERKIT, so check your email or log in to your account to redeem. (It may take a day or so to distribute)
So there you go. Because people were already modding in what is essentially just a reskin of the Arbalest, I don't have to pay for the DLC. Not sure many studios out there would willingly take a financial hit like that over a backer exclusive of low value....but they got integrity. As of this time I don't have the key in my backer kit but it will probably show up sometime soon.
Much obliged, Red Hook! To be honest I didn't even remember the Musketeer was a backer exclusive and wouldn't have cared if you'd given it out for free to the rest of players, but I will happily accept the key.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 12, 2018, 12:49:49 am
Post by: AzyWng on June 13, 2018, 04:53:18 pm
Anyway, I own this game. It’s been fun playing it.
I dunno what else to say...
Can’t check my own email since I’m in China (whee, amirite?), so I can’t see the non-backer version of this message.
Post by: nenjin on June 13, 2018, 05:27:50 pm
Post by: spazyak on June 13, 2018, 05:59:23 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 19, 2018, 12:43:06 pm
P: Just wanted to say that I began a stygian playthrough, annnnd dismas died to the bloodletter on week 1.
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2018, 02:07:35 pm
Post by: Kruniac on June 19, 2018, 04:01:00 pm
Sooo, anyone have an opinion of the dlc?
P: Just wanted to say that I began a stygian playthrough, annnnd dismas died to the bloodletter on week 1.
Not impressed with the DLC as far as the new level.
Digging the changes to class abilities, but I had mods that did exactly that. Still, it'll be interesting to get a new sense of the game balance.
Removing party restrictions was pretty idiotic, as it added some flavor and tightened up party comps, but to be honest, I had a mod that did this anyway :P
Musketeer is a beta Arbalest. Not really impressed, but I enjoy free things. :D
Post by: AzyWng on June 19, 2018, 05:37:42 pm
I thought the Musketeer was just a copy of the Arbalest - the exact same in nearly every aspect but appearance.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 19, 2018, 05:50:42 pm
Post by: Sirus on June 19, 2018, 05:53:29 pm
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2018, 06:12:17 pm
“Beta Arbalest”?
I think he was just making a joke and showing some solidarity to the Arbalest.
Post by: Kruniac on June 19, 2018, 08:37:53 pm
“Beta Arbalest”?
I think he was just making a joke and showing some solidarity to the Arbalest.
No, I was being a clueless newbie and not actually realizing that they are the same mechanical class with a reskin. Sorry folks.
I'm so used to playing with the class overhaul mods that I forgot what the base Arba plays like XD
Post by: AzyWng on June 19, 2018, 08:41:42 pm
Hopefully they won't enrage me more than the base game can :P
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 09:46:34 pm
Post by: Kruniac on June 19, 2018, 09:50:12 pm
Welp, decided to splurge and spent about $15 on getting all 3 DLCs - The Color of Madness, The Crimson Court, and The Shieldbreaker.
Hopefully they won't enrage me more than the base game can :P
You will especially love Crimson Court.
You would love it more if you had it day 1, because it was... balanced differently. :)
Good luck.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 20, 2018, 03:48:14 pm
I've restarted twice because I lost Dismas a couple of weeks into the game
Post by: AzyWng on June 20, 2018, 10:42:01 pm
I myself seem to find my own heroes missing and critting somewhat more often than they used to be, and they've also been recieving more crits than before the update (or again, so it seems).
Only one death so far, but then again I've only played for a few weeks on a completely fresh save. I don't know how my other saves will be affected by this (especially not my Modded Estate). Fingers crossed!
Post by: umiman on June 21, 2018, 03:59:10 am
Stress isn't hard to get rid off after all. The biggest cost is just the money, but even that isn't really that big of a deal. An antiquarian gives you so much money you'll be rolling in it.
It starts out really difficult due to lack of money and everything being locked but once you get rolling, it's a piece of cake.
Post by: AzyWng on June 21, 2018, 06:31:06 am
Post by: LordPorkins on June 21, 2018, 09:02:11 am
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 21, 2018, 10:47:27 am
I love darkest dungeon in any case, but I was sort of proud of my 100% legit achievements for this game.
So it's not a choice anymore. I will get this dlc.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 21, 2018, 02:03:48 pm
What have you been dying from?Mostly the problem is that everyone seems to focus fire on Dismas.
I myself seem to find my own heroes missing and critting somewhat more often than they used to be, and they've also been recieving more crits than before the update (or again, so it seems).
Only one death so far, but then again I've only played for a few weeks on a completely fresh save. I don't know how my other saves will be affected by this (especially not my Modded Estate). Fingers crossed!
I'm tbinking that I'm using riposte less... that migjt lead to more attacks
Post by: umiman on June 21, 2018, 03:19:04 pm
Apparently it's currently being brigaded by people upset over translations though.
Post by: pisskop on June 21, 2018, 03:46:31 pm
my stuns keep failing or my occultist hits bleed and zero healing or I misjudge stygian mode health/damage.
ran into 2 muskets and 2 bloodletters before the recruit level necromancer, for instance. knew that my fresh party was going to get packed in but kept at it and lost our healer to bleed. massive musket fueled bleed. we had the necro down to 25% tbf, but once the party catches an affliction their dpt dropped and it was over.
Post by: umiman on June 21, 2018, 07:19:43 pm
There's no real RNG to deal with when the enemy can't move haha. It's great. I haven't swapped them out in like... ages. I actually don't think I've used anyone but these four since the second week to now, which is like the 20th or something. Even went into the DLC horde mode thing and didn't even take a scratch.
The team is Musketeer, Plague Doctor, Bounty Hunter, and Crusader. The skill build is just all stuns. Except the Musketeer has that overpowered smoke screen ability.
It's pretty crazy. Because I've been stacking so many +x% chance to stun trinkets on them, they even stun bosses reliably. Makes it a serious cakewalk.
Post by: Kruniac on June 23, 2018, 10:32:11 pm
I'm just having crap rolls.
my stuns keep failing or my occultist hits bleed and zero healing or I misjudge stygian mode health/damage.
ran into 2 muskets and 2 bloodletters before the recruit level necromancer, for instance. knew that my fresh party was going to get packed in but kept at it and lost our healer to bleed. massive musket fueled bleed. we had the necro down to 25% tbf, but once the party catches an affliction their dpt dropped and it was over.
No offense, but you can't complain about dying on Stygian. That's like setting yourself on fire and saying it's too hot.
I can't play Stygian. I just won't do it. Not yet, anyway.
Playing a 0 level party against the Necro is suicide anyway. Your stress will be high when you reach him (maybe a few afflictions), and all of his party-wide attacks cause even more stress. I can only imagine how horrible it is in Stygian.
Hellion/Abom(or Bounty)/Vestal/Arbalest works well in Ruins. Arb/Vestal for heals, abom can self heal and stun on demand, Hellion for Iron Swan on goblet undead/muskets.
Post by: Sirus on June 23, 2018, 10:39:04 pm
Post by: Bormok, God of Mud on June 23, 2018, 10:59:12 pm
Post by: Kruniac on June 23, 2018, 11:04:50 pm
Unless the restriction got removed recently, Abominations can't run in the same party as Vestals. Or Lepers or Crusaders.
Quote
That restriction was removed with the latest patch.
This. I ran a mod way before the latest patch that removed it anyway, as I played extensively with just vanilla. Now that it's the new vanilla, combined with the changes to abilities/balance, we'll have a new era of combination exploring to do.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 24, 2018, 04:55:18 am
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2018, 04:59:10 am
Post by: AzyWng on June 24, 2018, 06:43:57 am
In that case, why don’t we call Vestals Vesties, Crusaders Crews, and so on?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 24, 2018, 07:11:00 am
Eh, I feel it was more theme than balance. And that theming made them bad, balance wise.How is it theme to prevent holies from going out with bobs, whereas they were perfectly fine with hellion, occultists, and antiquarians?
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2018, 07:21:22 am
Post by: Jopax on June 24, 2018, 08:15:35 am
Post by: AzyWng on June 24, 2018, 08:29:24 am
I don't understand why the religious heroes would have a problem with Antiquarians or Hellions. They may not share the religion, but perhaps they may see a chance to convert or are otherwise neutral.
Now, it is a good question as to why they tolerate the Occultist, since the Occultist is the only hero who has the dubious honor of being the only (vanilla) hero able to harm their teammates when they're not afflicted.
Post by: pisskop on June 24, 2018, 08:00:14 pm
OMG why would you literally make a reskin of a unique preorder character for your game, then release the preorder without modding it?
A shame too since muskets could easily be a neat 'hit all the things for graze damage and debuffs' character. OR, make the crossbowgirl a damn tank-buster, giving her more prot-reducing.
dumb. lame. kind of nonsense. why?
Post by: nenjin on June 25, 2018, 02:34:54 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 25, 2018, 03:17:24 pm
Post by: nenjin on June 25, 2018, 03:32:57 pm
edit
After one of many restarts it just started acting normal again. *shrug*
Post by: umiman on June 30, 2018, 07:01:23 pm
It's not really possible to go very far without those two. This is because of the obscene amount of stress damage, which will easily overwhelm any other potential stress heal other than a fully specced Jester in stress heal. Then there's the neverending damage. You could theoretically use something like Occultist for the heal, but it's really unreliable. Not to mention all the AOE damage, making Vestal kinda important... though if you were feeling baller you could probably skip it.
Other than those two you just need two DPS. I do Grave Robber and Highwayman and it seems to work. Kills hundreds before I get bored.
I tried so many other combos but it really comes down to stress heal and normal heal. If you lack either, you will just lose to the inevitable attrition. But when you have both it becomes a cakewalk.
Post by: Jopax on February 19, 2019, 05:41:17 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 19, 2019, 05:58:08 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2019, 07:10:01 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 19, 2019, 07:23:46 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on February 19, 2019, 07:32:59 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2019, 09:37:22 pm
Post by: DeKaFu on February 19, 2019, 11:16:59 pm
The snow reminds me of The Thing. Looking forwards to battling formless monstrosities in a blinding snowstorm~It immediately reminded me of At the Mountains of Madness, which is a Lovecraft story that's also set in Antarctica and features formless monstrosities.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 20, 2019, 12:49:42 am
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2019, 01:07:33 am
Post by: Jopax on February 20, 2019, 03:08:09 am
Post by: Retropunch on February 21, 2019, 02:57:43 pm
It's not that I don't want more DD, but I can't imagine they can do much more with the formula. All I can imagine is that it'll basically just be DD but with Cold instead of Darkness as the main mechanic, but which works pretty much the same (risk vs reward etc.).
Again, not that it's a bad thing but I'd be really surprised if it isn't just basically a big DLC for DD
Post by: spazyak on February 21, 2019, 03:00:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 21, 2019, 03:30:50 pm
Have an affliction system that actually meets the expectations we had of the first game.
Afflictions in DD are 99% random except for the hard coded curio Afflictions. Always have been. There's no link between what happens (outside of curios) and the afflictions you get. That's what always made DD an extremely well made board game to me, versus an actual character RPG.
If they can do that in a way that works in the sequel, I honestly don't care about anything else: story, mechanics, whatever. Just give me a reason to care about afflictions, and by extension, the characters that get afflicted. It was impossible to ever connect with any of your characters, for good or ill, because the whole underpinning of the system was just LAWL RANDOM.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 21, 2019, 03:55:30 pm
Post by: Kagus on February 21, 2019, 04:09:39 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 21, 2019, 05:09:11 pm
Hopefully that means the characters gain more character, not being "crusader #6" but "my crusader".
Post by: Levi on February 21, 2019, 05:32:42 pm
I'm tempted to wait to see if it appears as part of the humble monthly bundle next week though...
Post by: nenjin on February 21, 2019, 05:48:20 pm
Post by: Levi on February 21, 2019, 05:54:46 pm
Post by: Kagus on February 21, 2019, 06:21:12 pm
Hopefully that means the characters gain more character, not being "crusader #6" but "my crusader".Honestly, the extent of how faceless the mooks ended up being when DD first dropped (compared to how the game had been hyped and advertised beforehand) was what led to me dropping the game early on. I felt a bit cheated, and never really got over that enough to engage in Flesh Grinder Simulator 2000 past the earliest days before even The Weald had been implemented.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 21, 2019, 11:24:08 pm
My best guess for dd2 based on what they've said is that the game structure is about bringing a group of adventurers on a journey across the world while the apocalypse is happening. Which means no more hamlet, probably less opportunity to recruit new characters, which in turn makes them individually less expendable. And probably a campaign lose condition if you let everyone die.I'd be so down for this. Might make DD2 a game I playthrough more than once as opposed to DD1 which I enjoyed but never finished.
Hopefully that means the characters gain more character, not being "crusader #6" but "my crusader".
Edit: Its funny, someone on this very forum worked on a game jam style project where they made a demake of darkest dungeons that had like Game Boy Advance level graphics. In that when you completed a floor you went down to another floor and this repeated I think 5 times and got increasingly grim as it went on. I enjoyed that more than the actual darkest dungeons game. Although it was far less balanced and didn't last nearly as long. Loss conditions are so much better than annoyance conditions which is really what losses were in DD1.
Post by: Retropunch on February 22, 2019, 04:09:39 am
I like the idea of a journey instead of just a camp, but it depends whether it's actually different or just a camp re-skin that moves/is animated, or if it is more of a story/something more to it.
I'd mostly like them to strip away as much RNG as possible - it's obviously a part of any game like this, and they toned it down a lot later on in the DLCs/patches, but it was a complete turn off when you'd get 5 bad rolls in a row with nothing you could do to help tip the odds. There wasn't enough planning or strategy you could do to work around RNG like you can in something like DCSS for instance - you just sometimes got a really bad set of circumstances and that was it.
Post by: Frumple on February 22, 2019, 07:44:14 am
Actually pretty sure there's been a non-pinball game at some point with the tilt "mechanic", too, now that I think of it. Probably something similar for slot game derivatives. I'm just saying you could roll with this even without the pinball minigame.
* E: mostly because i just woke up and misread tip as tilt
i like that reading better so whatever
Post by: Jopax on February 22, 2019, 07:57:57 am
Still, wait and see for the most part, even if it doesn't turn out the most fun thing, I'm giddy for the new artwork and narration they'll introduce as that was probably the strongest aspect of the first one.
Post by: Retropunch on February 22, 2019, 08:09:41 am
The idea of a journey is neat, I've got this picture of a rougelite approach where you get a party, set off and eventually you get ground down to dust. But the things you did might impact the next party, so they might get a little bit further, or you might've fucked up majorly and now have to find an alternate route. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of multiple shorter runs, tied together by an overarching goal, mostly because the original DD turned into such a bloody grinder towards the end that I usually just gave up on it since it was too much of a slog to finish the whole thing. This approach could offer a middle ground, where the major end goal is still a grind to get to but you have these smaller goals leading up to it (and yes I understand it'd be similar to different regions of the estate, but I think they could push it further so that each journey is mostly unique, with special events and such and how you might approach it) which are further broken up by the actual dungeon runs.
Still, wait and see for the most part, even if it doesn't turn out the most fun thing, I'm giddy for the new artwork and narration they'll introduce as that was probably the strongest aspect of the first one.
There was a game a while ago that did basically this - it was a roguelite and you basically grew older every turn, but passed stuff on to the next generation when you died. It was ok, but after a while I just got sick of doing the starting bit all over again. It's difficult to have that 'one more turn' feeling if you've just lost most of your progress. Not to say it couldn't work though, I could imagine if they pulled it off it'd be great.
I imagine it'd be more that the path is slightly more linear (with branching paths I'm sure) where you clear dungeons to progress to the next part rather than back to town.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 22, 2019, 09:31:29 am
Post by: Iduno on February 22, 2019, 10:43:33 am
Post by: Zangi on February 22, 2019, 12:25:33 pm
Is way too snowbally and can skew perceptions of players in a way that is toxic in community and reviews. In my opinion anyways.
Post by: Kagus on February 22, 2019, 12:41:19 pm
Gameplay wise, losing makes game more difficult with the opposite of doing better makes it easier is kinda bad.Okay, that only took me about four tries to read correctly. I'm fine.
Post by: Jopax on February 22, 2019, 12:42:37 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 22, 2019, 02:30:15 pm
Can't wait to dress Reynault in furs and steal the mountains of madness
Post by: Geneoce on February 22, 2019, 06:02:40 pm
There was a game a while ago that did basically this - it was a roguelite and you basically grew older every turn, but passed stuff on to the next generation when you died. It was ok, but after a while I just got sick of doing the starting bit all over again. It's difficult to have that 'one more turn' feeling if you've just lost most of your progress. Not to say it couldn't work though, I could imagine if they pulled it off it'd be great.
Off-topic but may I have the name of this game?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 22, 2019, 06:27:51 pm
Because that game sucked.
Post by: LordPorkins on February 22, 2019, 06:36:56 pm
It's not the one where the guy made the game and everyone hated it, so then he made a sequel which was the exact same game and everybody still hated it and now also hated him for sleazy business practices, is it?I believe the amount of games that that can be applied to is roughly the size of the population of Rhode Island. Could you narrow it down a bit?
Because that game sucked.
Post by: Aoi on February 22, 2019, 08:08:03 pm
There was a game a while ago that did basically this - it was a roguelite and you basically grew older every turn, but passed stuff on to the next generation when you died. It was ok, but after a while I just got sick of doing the starting bit all over again. It's difficult to have that 'one more turn' feeling if you've just lost most of your progress. Not to say it couldn't work though, I could imagine if they pulled it off it'd be great.
Off-topic but may I have the name of this game?
Edit: Derp'd on the name.
Post by: Retropunch on February 23, 2019, 11:35:21 am
There was a game a while ago that did basically this - it was a roguelite and you basically grew older every turn, but passed stuff on to the next generation when you died. It was ok, but after a while I just got sick of doing the starting bit all over again. It's difficult to have that 'one more turn' feeling if you've just lost most of your progress. Not to say it couldn't work though, I could imagine if they pulled it off it'd be great.
Off-topic but may I have the name of this game?
Honestly can't remember the name I'm afraid - it was moderately well received at the time so I don't think it's the one Cthulhu is on about, but I don't think it was anything particularly fantastic.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on February 23, 2019, 04:48:12 pm
Post by: Persus13 on February 23, 2019, 04:59:13 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 23, 2019, 05:43:18 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 23, 2019, 07:24:58 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 24, 2019, 08:29:09 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 25, 2019, 12:35:55 am
I found it utterly bland. In particular the combat system sucked, which is a deal breaker in a would be xcom clone. Graphics were nothing to write home about either.
Tbh the more I think about it the more it feels like an amateur's attempt at cloning XCOM while adding a few twists. If they released a MC2 I'd keep an eye on it in case it was good, but I certainly dont see myself visiting MC1
DD in contrast feels much more polished. Even though you do get the feeling that many things they wanted to do were left on the drawing board. I kind of have good expectatives for DD2 for the same reason though.... I get the feeling that many of the more simpler mechanics are last minute simplifications, and that we might see something sweet in DD2
Post by: IronyOwl on February 25, 2019, 02:03:24 am
You're not wrong that it's XCOM-lite + stuff or that DD is much more polished, but I think I'd describe it as lacking or simple before I'd describe it as bland. It's not that it didn't try or had nothing to bring to the table, it just wasn't very good at it.
Post by: Iduno on August 31, 2019, 11:11:14 am
Post by: Jopax on August 31, 2019, 12:23:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on August 31, 2019, 07:20:33 pm
Post by: Iduno on September 03, 2019, 08:18:10 am
Post by: nenjin on September 03, 2019, 09:56:11 am
Post by: Iduno on September 06, 2019, 09:25:26 pm
Am I going to die? Absolutely. Will I enjoy 4-6 fucking turns of dying? Nope.
Post by: Sirus on September 06, 2019, 11:26:26 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 07, 2019, 09:21:53 am
Except you absolutely can run away, precisely because you might find yourself in a possibly unwinnable situation and need to call the quest off. AFAIK you can retreat from any battle in the game.I suspect you can't run away from the final boss, but yeah.
Post by: Iduno on September 07, 2019, 10:04:56 am
Except you absolutely can run away, precisely because you might find yourself in a possibly unwinnable situation and need to call the quest off. AFAIK you can retreat from any battle in the game.
I quit trying after 3 failures to run away.
Post by: Sirus on September 07, 2019, 12:03:14 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 07, 2019, 04:05:34 pm
I didn't say it'd be easy to run away, but if you know you can't win a fight it's far and away better to keep trying to flee than get your whole party killed for no gain. Even if just one survives, that one will gain some experience and bring back any loot you've found.
Actually, you have to win the expedition in order to get experience. Just loot if you run away without completing the mission. The survivor might even be so screwed up that it isn't worth keeping them. But that is still more than getting nothing for dying (actually losing a tiny bit, as hero equipment and supplies has some cost).
Protip on the bosses: Read up on them on the wiki before challenging them. You always know that you're going to face them, the info is right there on how to beat them. Its kinda cheating yourself of the fun of experiencing them for yourself, but I usually don't indulge in that sort of pleasure, as going in blind usually means losing heroes in order to find out how to fight the bosses.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 25, 2019, 10:41:54 am
Post by: nenjin on September 25, 2019, 11:11:43 am
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2020, 07:53:10 pm
In it you can pit a team of your heroes against a team of someone else's heroes in online multiplayer, all for the amusement and bloodlust of the Hamlet folk. (That and a prestige rank and some fancy lookin' trinkets.)
I definitely did not expect any more updates to the game after the announcement of the sequel, let alone PVP with online multiplayer.
It's not for me; vanilla DD raises my blood pressure and anxiety plenty. But it DOES look pretty cool, the combat system lending itself nicely to PVP. There's tweaks to the rules system (players alternate one hero at a time to attack and can choose who gets to the attack when per turn, bleed and blight can't trigger a deathblow in PVP, there's a new debuff called Dazed that means you can only act after all other un-Dazded heroes on your team have gone, heroes leave corpses like monsters in PVP, etc....)
So if DD wasn't sweaty enough for you, this might fit the (butcher's) bill. Just watching a stream I found myself getting into a match, because anyone that's played DD can share in the psychic pain of dodges and crits happening at the worst possible time.
Post by: AzyWng on June 02, 2020, 08:53:43 pm
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 03, 2020, 12:13:37 pm
The nature of the game will inevitably lead to cheese teams and connection issues.
Also, not a fan of some of the stupid luck-based achievements.
Post by: nenjin on June 03, 2020, 12:22:18 pm
Post by: AzyWng on June 03, 2020, 12:32:30 pm
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 03, 2020, 01:19:23 pm
No issues with RNG in single player, but it becomes a huge factor in this pvp format. Just lost against a mark team (basically a copy of my own). First enemy attack: 42hp crit on my musketeer. Second attack: deathblow. My own attacks: 3 deathblow resist in a row.
Obviously it can go in both directions, but it's not a good recipe for a competitive format.
Also, massive connectivity issues. So far I've been able to play one game and after that I get the "unable to communicate" error for a while, before being able to connect again.
EDIT 2: after a dozen or so matches, I can confirm the DLC in the current state is hot garbage. The format of this game is simply not suited for any form of balanced pvp.
Some mechanics should be removed or completely reworked: crits and virtues. Critical hits, as designed in darkest dungeon, don't belong to a respectable pvp format.
The virtues/affliction system don't make any sense, either. Building a team on virtue percentage is, well, undesirable, for obvious reasons. So there's this little chance of getting a virtue, always there. Random chance for a bonus while getting wrecked? Why? To punish to the other player for doing well? Most of the times you are getting a "nope, fuck you" anyway, so why keep that extra layer of RNG?
And mind you, I'm not one of "those" players. In 481 hours I've beaten this game with all sorts of team compositions and on all difficulty levels. RNG is not a deciding factor in single player. But it is the deciding factor in a significant percentage of pvp games.
Also, some skills need to be deleted and re-designed from scratch. Example n.1: bellow.
Post by: nenjin on June 03, 2020, 04:36:39 pm
Now, that said, people have always criticized the RNG in DD as being too heavy handed. That crits matter too much no matter which direction you're looking. So I don't think it should be a surprise that it's still true in DD PvP.
But I wouldn't fault anyone for considering it hot garbage. It's easy to overlook that in the SP because you can save scum or w/e. But that sense of "I had that!" and being robbed, when there is another human player involved, I can easily see that being a bridge too far.
Like I said, I was watching a stream and a dude failed to get a deathblow at pretty much the most critical moment, and my instantaneous reaction was to close the stream, much like I'd switch away from a TV program that was inflicting weaponzed levels of cringe. As per my original post, DD works on my anxiety and sense of "entitlement" more so than most games I've ever played. Which is why I'd never touch the PvP, even with another balance pass.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 04, 2020, 01:12:47 pm
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 04, 2020, 02:27:19 pm
Not sure I agree. There's an element of RNG everywhere, from who goes first to how much damage an attack does. Without any RNG layer, it would be a pure build / decision making process. Hell even MTG has an element of RNG in what cards are available, when.
Now, that said, people have always criticized the RNG in DD as being too heavy handed. That crits matter too much no matter which direction you're looking. So I don't think it should be a surprise that it's still true in DD PvP.
But I wouldn't fault anyone for considering it hot garbage. It's easy to overlook that in the SP because you can save scum or w/e. But that sense of "I had that!" and being robbed, when there is another human player involved, I can easily see that being a bridge too far.
Like I said, I was watching a stream and a dude failed to get a deathblow at pretty much the most critical moment, and my instantaneous reaction was to close the stream, much like I'd switch away from a TV program that was inflicting weaponzed levels of cringe. As per my original post, DD works on my anxiety and sense of "entitlement" more so than most games I've ever played. Which is why I'd never touch the PvP, even with another balance pass.
RNG can have an impact in single player, but there are multiple safety measures a good player can put in place. Consumables, appropriate team composition, the retreat button. Even a failed mission isn't a huge deal. I've had several zero-deaths clean runs on the highest difficulty (except
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm not against RNG per se, but in the current PvP format one single bad roll can literally mean a defeat screen. When the opponent hits a deathblow at the first chance vs 80% resist and you miss three deathblows in a row, well, that's bad design.
A pure design/build decision making process is not a bad thing, in my opinion, because the game is complex enough. In one single round, a player has 4 decisions to take, respectively with 16+12+8+4 options, so it will never be a simple rock/paper/scissor affair.
Crits are an important feature in this game, so I agree that they cannot be simply wiped out from PvP. But I think they should be significantly toned down. Maybe a crit should add just some stress damage instead of transforming a simple attack to "LOL YOU ARE ON DEATH'S DOOR IN ONE HIT".
And the main offender is the whole deathblow business. That one seriously needs some work. I don't know how I would deal with it. Maybe something like stress, adding a second HP bar?
Also, I admit I may be slightly pissed off by the achievements. Why? I don't know, usually I'm not an achievement fanatic. But Darkest Dungeon for some reason is a game I've always wanted to keep at 100%. This DLC has changed everything.
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2020, 02:32:12 pm
And I wouldn't be surprised if the deathblow RNG hasn't gotten enough attention as it exists in PvP. It seems like they thought through a lot of SP game mechanics as it relates to PvP, but there's always a chance it hasn't been tuned enough. IMO, Deathblow Resist doesn't even really make sense for PvP. Certainly not at the levels that exist in SP.
I remember a bit after release they revisited crit chance for being too "streaky." Maybe they need to do that same application to Deathblows in PvP.
At the end of the day though, I think DD is always going to have an infuriating element to RNG. I don't know why, almost no other game I've played has caused me to have such a visceral reaction to RNG like DD. (Maybe XCOM, Cultist Simulator to a much lesser degree.)
Post by: Ai Shizuka on June 04, 2020, 03:18:44 pm
I don't know why, almost no other game I've played has caused me to have such a visceral reaction to RNG like DD. (Maybe XCOM, Cultist Simulator to a much lesser degree.)
Maybe something related to the small team size and average fight duration? Fights rarely last long and a couple bad rolls can have a huge impact.
Also, how it's presented. The sound effect, the narrator's quotes. The whole package delivers a tangible "fuck you" effect.
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2020, 05:17:42 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 16, 2020, 01:20:50 pm
Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 16, 2020, 01:44:14 pm
Quote
"The community reads a most unsettling passage."
Quote
>Darkest dungeon 2
“You remember our house, opulent and imperial...
>EGS
Its a festering abomination!”
Quote
"Welcome home, such as it is. This squalid hamlet, these corrupted lands, they are yours now, and you are bound to them."
I don't mind, personally, but I'm concerned about their ability to do an eldritch zombie apocalypse. DD is brilliant enough that I'll probably end up preordering anyway just to support them, though. With luck all those Epic Shekels will let them do something really great with it.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 16, 2020, 02:02:17 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 16, 2020, 02:12:20 pm
Post by: LordPorkins on November 16, 2020, 02:15:13 pm
Plus, you know. The usual complaints. Lack of community input, etc, etc.
The trailer looks pretty damn kickass though.
Post by: nenjin on November 17, 2020, 10:23:14 am
Post by: Damiac on November 17, 2020, 10:34:23 am
Just learned via this new trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90qCpMSV7I) that DD2 is going to be an Epic Games Store exclusive.
Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.
Yeah no thanks, I don't need a chinese botnet on my PC thank you very much.
I come back to this game every so often. The atmosphere is awesome, the gameplay's a little simplistic though. Some classes seem just pointless, like abomination and hellion, they just seem like crappier versions of better heroes. Any good team including a jester and vestal/occultist causes you to lose out on some of the possible combinations, which seems like a shame.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 17, 2020, 10:39:38 am
Just learned via this new trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90qCpMSV7I) that DD2 is going to be an Epic Games Store exclusive.
Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.
Yeah no thanks, I don't need a chinese botnet on my PC thank you very much.
I come back to this game every so often. The atmosphere is awesome, the gameplay's a little simplistic though. Some classes seem just pointless, like abomination and hellion, they just seem like crappier versions of better heroes. Any good team including a jester and vestal/occultist causes you to lose out on some of the possible combinations, which seems like a shame.
Post by: nenjin on November 17, 2020, 11:15:29 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 17, 2020, 11:21:55 am
https://www.darkestdungeon.com/our-team/
I´m not exactly thrilled about Epic exclusivity (in part because of the forementioned issue, in part because of platform inflation), but I´ll decide on the go what I do.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 17, 2020, 11:27:12 am
Post by: IronyOwl on November 17, 2020, 12:27:57 pm
My biggest complaint is the fact that by doing this they've more or less spat in the face of modders. Modding is a huge part of the DD community, and they even have a Weekly Mod Showcase. A lot players know the names of Marvin Seo, Miraclebutt, and yes, even Muscarine, (Lotta M's there. Huh.), even if they dont play with any mods. Having the game up for a year on a platform that only just got mod support (And a shit one at that), is a pretty big middle finger.Damn, I hadn't considered that. I guess when you describe Epic as "more console-like" the hate makes a lot more sense. :P
I think this whole hate wave over Epic exclusivity is kind of uncalled for.It's definitely into meme territory, but there are a lot of little things to hate about Epic. If they wanted to be a shining rival instead of a vile usurper they (mostly) could have done so.
There are however a few games clearly inspired by Darkest Dungeon, even with similar graphics.Mistover and... Deep Sky Derelicts?
Post by: nenjin on November 17, 2020, 12:43:49 pm
Throwing cash at devs to guarantee them sales just so they can undercut Steam just doesn't sit well with me. I think it sets a bad precedent when distribution platforms also double as publishers effectively. I like my indie devs to have cash to do better things, sure, but not at the cost of restricting the market. It also further drives developers into the territory of "just selling our game isn't enough, we need cash up front (in addition to our publishing deals and/or previous successes) to pad our earnings." Like, making a good game isn't enough, now there's got to be backend cash as well. I'm glad most other people don't have shit loads of Chinese cash to throw around willy nilly. It's not really honest competition, it's leveraging cash to remove competition. The only saving graces are that it helps devs out and the exclusivity doesn't continue on in perpetuity.
That and I pretty much refuse to step into any more walled gardens.
Post by: Damiac on November 17, 2020, 06:26:10 pm
Which is too bad, i enjoyed fortnite but not enough to let my computer be used in ddos attacks against epic and/or the CCP's enemies.
For those interested, here are some links for more info/research for your own ends.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/b7d146/is_epic_games_app_a_malware/
Here's a semi refutation of that same idea:
https://nickcano.com/epic-games-spyware/
You can decide for yourself what you believe, but I'm not just blowing smoke.
Post by: nenjin on October 22, 2021, 05:28:24 pm
Newest trailer for Darkest Dungeons 2: Road to Ruin.
Holy crap they've upped their animation game. Things look magnificent. I'll have to wait until a Steam release, but this has gotten me excited again!
Post by: Mephansteras on October 22, 2021, 07:41:56 pm
Post by: Vector on October 23, 2021, 01:45:14 pm
I don't like Steam's gamification but as long as I ignore most AAA games it seems less intrusive.
To actually be on topic, I keep quitting DD like halfway through a run because there's a part around the middle of the campaign that gets boring and tedious for me. I don't know what it is, something about how the artifacts make things more swingy when what I want is for them to make it less so, or never having enough space in my bags for all the loot I want to take home, or the level 3-ish power level not being quite satisfying enough but level 1-ish being infuriating after a while ... dunno what it is but I keep quitting.
Anyway I haven't played since summer, but I'm annoyed at the part of Ori and the Blind Forest that I recently started, so maybe I'll give it another go from the old save file.
Post by: nenjin on October 23, 2021, 02:20:15 pm
I've beaten pretty much the whole game except the last boss of Color of Madness.....and I've never actually entered the Darkest Dungeon. I plan on doing that at least once before the sequel releases on Steam.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 23, 2021, 03:03:44 pm
In the early game, just surviving and completing a mission is a goal. And its a hard one.
In the middle game, the entire premise of the game changes. Its about leveling up heroes, acquiring resources to develop the town, and obtaining wealth to upgrade said leveled up heroes. So missions either a trivial grind because your heroes are actually overqualified just trying to get to the next level, or terribly hard because you're pushing to avoid the grind.
Eh, it becomes more like work / real life at that point, so screw it.
Post by: pisskop on October 23, 2021, 03:04:33 pm
I like the idea of winning but that's not the goal for me.
Post by: nenjin on October 23, 2021, 03:12:35 pm
But I don't disagree with the take. The game does shift away from the moment to moment dungeon survival to the meta, and there's a lot to do in the full game now. And nothing is more slog-like than completing the Crimson Court. It took me.....probably over 100 hours before I was like "Fuck it, we're getting through this." I'm up to 260 now over like 4 total games, the last being the most successful. And that's with savescumming. I get it wears people out. I sort of doubt that will be different for the sequel. TBH I haven't stayed up on anything about RtR, I wanted it to feel fresh when I saw it. Even if it was on Steam in Early Access, I doubt I'd pick it up this time and wait for full release instead.
I just hope if there's a perk/flaw system like the first game, it's better thought out and implemented. Still one of my biggest disappointments from DD1.
Post by: EuchreJack on October 23, 2021, 04:09:54 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 23, 2021, 04:18:13 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 23, 2021, 04:21:20 pm
Post by: Folly on October 23, 2021, 04:25:20 pm
Hmm, guess I'll probably buy Into the Breach on Steam then if Epic is doing all that weird stuff to people's machines.
Gotta note that that conversation about Epic's launcher is a year old, and most of that stuff has long since been debunked. Epic's client has literally hundreds of millions of users at this point, and no credible accounts of malware or spyware have been identified.
Regarding Darkest Dungeon, I tried to get into the first one, but it just had too much RNG for my taste.
DD2 is certainly looking pretty, but without major changes to the underlying mechanics I cannot see myself purchasing.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 27, 2021, 11:15:14 am
To boot: DD1 had some annoying mechanics, granted (made worse by the DLC IMO). Still, it had nice things so it felt a bit quid pro quo, first game by an indy studio, would give it a 7.5. Had hopes for the sequel to be more of the good and less of the bad.
Not the case. DD2 is a combat system similar to the one in DD1, except less versatile because you're allowed far less flexibility with team arrangements, you can't retreat, skill use is more restricted, etc.... This is all laid on top a metagame that is similar to Faster than Light. Which is a game I never liked btw
I'd say that one good thing of DD1 was that you could cut your loses and run. No such mechanism in DD2. you're forced to plod on. No wait to retreat and reassemble. This is just... plodding on, fight until you get to the next goalpost or until your team goes under
All in all
Post by: EuchreJack on October 27, 2021, 12:08:36 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 27, 2021, 12:33:44 pm
Edit: superceded by events. The game is actually good now
Post by: nenjin on October 27, 2021, 01:25:43 pm
Quote
Heck, if you have the Color of Madness DLC you can get a pretty clear idea of what DD2 is like. Imagine the whole game of DD1 was just the Mill. Over and over. Nonstop.
:'(
Not what I wanted to hear. For me the best part of DD was the exploration, and the combat broke up that monotony so both continued to be enjoyable. Crimson Court took that combo over the top and made it into a slog, and Color of Madness as you said just made the combat the focus.
Guess I'm glad to have heard this even though it's a big disappointment. Guess I'll see what the Steam reviews say once it's out of Early Access.
But yes. I've always gotten the impression that the DD devs are exceptionally proud of their combat system, because its underpinnings are basically a board game. And to be fair, next to the art direction and voice acting, the combat system is the most robust and polished part of DD1. So I guess I'm not surprised they decided to cut away stuff and just focus on the combat. Not saying I like it, but I think I can understand the thinking from their side.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 27, 2021, 02:14:38 pm
QuoteHeck, if you have the Color of Madness DLC you can get a pretty clear idea of what DD2 is like. Imagine the whole game of DD1 was just the Mill. Over and over. Nonstop.
:'(
Not what I wanted to hear. For me the best part of DD was the exploration, and the combat broke up that monotony so both continued to be enjoyable. Crimson Court took that combo over the top and made it into a slog, and Color of Madness as you said just made the combat the focus.
QFT
Post by: Aoi on October 27, 2021, 02:19:01 pm
What did they actually do well, because it can't all be bad, can it?
Post by: nenjin on October 27, 2021, 02:27:04 pm
Post by: Aoi on October 27, 2021, 02:40:13 pm
But seems that even the usually jubilant reviewers have very little to say that's good about the actual gameplay, outside of the relationship system.
Post by: nenjin on October 27, 2021, 02:48:20 pm
There's multiple world state bars, like the Torch from the first game, but also a "Loathing" bar. Low torch + High Loathing = Combat being terrible for you. And then each character has relationships with other characters in the party that sorta take the place of Virtues and Afflictions. "Good relationships are fragile but negative relationships are hard to change." Great. This is all sounding less than fun.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 27, 2021, 02:50:35 pm
*EDIT
At least I discovered Wildermyth and Battle Brothers now
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 27, 2021, 04:04:29 pm
EDIT: so the Red Hook guys posted this in facebook the day of release.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I find the apologetic tone curious. Excusatio non petita, accusation manifesta. I think they knew that at this point what they have doesn't cut it.
I'll probably revisit DD2 in a few months and see how it goes[/s]
We'll see. As I said before, I think Wildermyth and Battle Brothers are better choices right now. Myself, I'll probably play those, and DD1, while keeping an eye on DD2. my initial impression is disappointing, but I've gotten surprises in the past. IE: I underwhelmed by Kingmaker at release, but afterwards I revisited it and liked it better.
Edit: I did revisit it and I did like it much much better
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 27, 2021, 04:12:08 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on October 27, 2021, 05:22:20 pm
the story of DD2 might even be a fever dream in the heads of the DD1 characters, trying to cope with the madness that happened in DD1 after beating it and remembering their past that lead to them being the class they are.
than again the meta progression felt better in STS than in so far in DD2... unlocking new combat cards felt way more impactfull than unlocking a +10% food innitem or +10% resistance trinket with one new class every few levels.
i think right now it might get too repetetive to start over and over and over, till you got enough unlocks to get a random run where you finally do better than before...
in DD1 even a "lost" run meant something... you might lost 3 guys, but still made it out and got a few items and continue with new people, its something to recover from and was okay with all the madness happening.
in DD2 once one guy dies you are on a downwards spiral and might even feel like just restarting to be more worth your time than playing it out till all die to get a better score for more unlocks.
the whole feel of exploring a dungeon and finding loot while fighting the monsters, isnt really there anymore... (obviously)
its more trying to be about the characters on their path... through their mental feverdream of madness fighting their demons. (as if they gone mad after DD1 and are in hospital in a coma)
that they managed to keep the same artstyle and atmosphere from DD1 as 3d now is really great.
and it is early access... so it can still change a bit till "release".
Post by: nenjin on October 28, 2021, 09:46:30 am
Post by: Blue_Dwarf on October 29, 2021, 01:07:42 pm
The character animations are excessive and horribly over the top. Even when everyone is just standing still, they are literally dancing all over the place. Some enemy keeps laughing all the time. I can't imagine how is anyone going to play this for hours while looking at all that crap.
This is Diablo 3 type of cartoony sequel that has nothing to do with the previous games.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 30, 2021, 11:08:02 am
I do agree the characters look way too "active" though, especially on like, passive screens where they arent doing anything.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 30, 2021, 07:27:25 pm
Some enemy keeps laughing all the time.
"Lol," said the enemy, "lmao."
Post by: Aoi on October 30, 2021, 10:28:15 pm
Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2021, 06:27:53 am
Also I'm just imagining the pitch for DD2
"What if darkest dungeon... Had no dungeon..."
Post by: nenjin on November 02, 2021, 09:12:11 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 02, 2021, 09:14:05 pm
Classic lover's pox
Also I'm just imagining the pitch for DD2
"What if darkest dungeon... Had no dungeon..."
The real dungeon was the friends we made along the way.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 03, 2021, 10:14:53 am
"A Darkest Dungeon....WITHIN a Darkest Dungeon."LOADSA MONEY
The real dungeon was the friends we made along the way.Sounds stressful
Post by: Vector on November 03, 2021, 08:35:44 pm
Classic lover's pox
Also I'm just imagining the pitch for DD2
"What if darkest dungeon... Had no dungeon..."
The real dungeon was the friends we made along the way.
There's no exit :V
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 04, 2021, 02:12:02 pm
Dang, popped in to see what people thought of it in here and was blasted away by the hatred... Is it really that bad? I was never able to get into Darkest Dungeon because of its awfully unfun metaprogression based around juggling the usage of a bunch of randomly assigned meta resources, as much as I liked everything else about it. All the reviewers ive seen play it have been really enthusiastic also.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Like I said before: would you enjoy Darkest Dungeon 1 if it was just the Farmstead? If you would, then maybe you'd enjoy Darkest Dungeon 2. It's certainly not my can of beans and I'd not go around recommending it, at least in it's current form. Though I am hard pressed to see how the core gameplay loop could change into something I'd recommend...
I do agree the characters look way too "active" though, especially on like, passive screens where they arent doing anything.
Classic lover's pox
Also I'm just imagining the pitch for DD2
"What if darkest dungeon... Had no dungeon..."
ROTFL
Post by: Ai Shizuka on November 07, 2021, 05:10:13 am
Things I didn't like at first glance:
- I can easily see the cart driving part becoming very boring very quickly.
- I hate the plague doctor's stance/animations. She was very elegant and graceful in her moves, now she looks like a goblin.
Post by: Aoi on November 07, 2021, 12:36:45 pm
Except you still have to steer, since the crud on the road can spawn items when you run them over. Whyyyyyy.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 12:42:47 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2021, 12:44:47 pm
I think one thing roguelike makers forget is that the fundamental basis of what makes a roguelike roguelike is not permadeath, but the game being fun, challenging and interesting due to its game rules alone+1 to Wildermyth (I already have Battle Brothers).
*EDIT
At least I discovered Wildermyth and Battle Brothers now
Obligatory topic on Wildermyth for further discussion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179213.0)...and suggestions for better opening topic text.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 07, 2021, 04:05:36 pm
Darkest Dungeon 2: Taking freeform adventure and putting it BACK ON THE RAILS. :Ppretty much. I'm pretty bummed out (as far as you can be bummed out about a game I mean) about this because I had expectations about DD2, and I honestly dont see this shaping into anything I'll like. I mean this is DD-FTL. And I didn't like FTL. It might get better than it's current incarnation but the core gameplay loop it's pretty meh, and it's highly unlikely they'll add to that or change that in any significative manner. If DD1 development is anything to go by, we will get more "campaigns", the interactions between the characters might get tweaked, and combat balance will be tweaked. But the core game itself, what you see is what you get.
Post by: Aoi on November 07, 2021, 04:50:28 pm
And more of a bug issue, but I'm finding it sometimes crashes during the score tabulation screen, so you get no credit for the run. And, more often than not, it's on a long run. >:(
Post by: EuchreJack on November 08, 2021, 11:06:51 pm
What I find even worse is that it has metagame unlockables, that are pretty major... so to get to a point where you have a realistic chance of success, you have to fail umpty-times. Unlike FTL where the only unlocks were... ships?
Actually, you had to succeed in some way in FTL to get the unlocks. Failure gave nothing.
Post by: LordPorkins on November 11, 2021, 11:26:13 pm
Plus, with all the focus on Tokens, He could be the Token/Combo God. Without setup, okay. With setup, killer
I just want to crit-uppercut God in the face, followed by a dismissive snort, alright?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2022, 02:49:06 pm
Post by: Aoi on May 27, 2022, 09:33:58 pm
Update: I've played the latest patches and now its clearer what the devs are aiming at, and have changed my mind about the game (first development version was terrible. Now its actually pretty good).
Did they do anything with the wagon driving segments? The inclusion of that unnecessary twitchiness was what ultimately nixed it for me. (Not that it was my only issue with it, but it was the final straw.)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 28, 2022, 09:37:11 am
I think its a wholly different animal from Darkest Dungeon 1. In DD1, it made a lot of sense to fight as few encounters as possible to minimize risk and stress buildup in your characters, and make sure they are fresh when they fight the fights that cannot be avoided. In DD2 its the other way around: more often than not you *have* to go out of your way to seek fights. If you fight (and win) fights loathing comes down and you get mastery points to improve your chars. On the contrary, if you AVOID fights loathing builds up, your characters fight each other, your flame drains fast and you dont get mastery points so its more likely to end up in a bad place.
I suspect its a delliberate decision by Red Hook. I dont fully agree (I think DD1 was overall a more strategic game, and was hoping for DD1 with an even deeper strategic layer. And maybexcomlike combat) but the result is actually fairly decent, despite the fact that I dont usually like slay the spire-likes.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on May 28, 2022, 10:56:42 am
Post by: Empty on May 29, 2022, 02:38:12 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 30, 2022, 05:28:45 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2023, 02:39:41 pm
With over a year of work on the game since anyone posted, does anyone have some updated thoughts about it for the Steam release? Sadly it doesn't feel like a Day 1 buy for me but I'd be happy if my opinion were to change.
Post by: pisskop on February 25, 2023, 02:54:00 pm
idk if I feel it tbh. Ill probably wait to see some 09MAR23 gameplay
P: it feels like a 'climb the tower' single serving rouguelite game, actually
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 25, 2023, 05:14:09 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2023, 05:16:23 pm
I love it. I was very skeptical when it came up. But I love how it came out.Did their bride check clear this time?
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2023, 06:54:03 pm
I love it. I was very skeptical when it came up. But I love how it came out.
(http://i.imgur.com/vbYf3t3.gif) (https://imgur.com/vbYf3t3)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 26, 2023, 02:19:20 pm
I love it. I was very skeptical when it came up. But I love how it came out.
(http://i.imgur.com/vbYf3t3.gif) (https://imgur.com/vbYf3t3)
It's many things. When they first put it out there were few options and the game was very unpolished. But they polished it a lot and what used to work terrible actually goes pretty well now.
To single out a few:
- relationship system is less hardcore (but can still screw you if you dont pay attention or are unlucky)
- you have more items to deal with situations (including one that allows you to increase the torch level -though only during combat- functionally making it similar to DD1 torches -lets call them torches for simplicity). It also feels like the choice on what items to drag along is more meaningful and strategically relevant, as they can change a lot how your run goes and how you deal with unexpected stuff. It feels different and better than expedition planning in 1 to me
- you have quite a bit of hero customization (although needing heals and stressheals means that some combinations will be more popular than others. Its not that you're absolutely constrained -quite a few classes have alternate stress//heal abilities- but some are so substantially better than the others that you kind of feel pressed to toss them in)
- Combat is mechanically similar to DD1... but it feels *better* than DD1s. There are just a few subtle changes in how it works. Its more satisfying. Also the 5 turn limit only applies to road battles, not to every battle (which was silly)
- Path planning has improved a lot over early access. It matters a lot what paths you pick and what are you hoping to achieve (eg: technically you need to defeat one stage boss to access the final bosses... but in practice the focus of the runs at the beginning should be in getting unlock currency). Also in DD1 I felt encouraged to avoid combat. In DD2 its a more nuanced decision with many pros and cons to evaluate
- ambientation is gorgeous. I feel there's a lot of homage to "In the Mouth of Madness" in this game
Post by: nenjin on February 26, 2023, 04:45:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 16, 2023, 07:17:05 pm
Upgraded models look ugly and weird, but close enough that I could see that style looking really cool. Some enemy designs and animations are really nice as well.
Combat feels off. Part of this is the art shift taking the gravity out of hits and misses, part of it is harder to pin down. A lot seems to be related to strategic concerns, like not having much choice over which heroes you have at the moment or which skills they have. I'm probably also not in the swing of things yet, but if a DD1 veteran isn't getting it pretty quickly I assume that's a design failure nonetheless.
Game structure sucks. The roguelike approach is an interesting adaptation to the original hamlet-expedition system, but it feels way less satisfying and organic. Having a home base to upgrade is a pretty cool feature you're gonna be hard-pressed to replace with a candle collection system to upgrade your vestal with. On the other end, I don't think they went hard enough with the unpredictable and adaptive nature of a proper roguelike run, so it feels less exploratory or risky and more plain grindy.
Overall pretty disappointing. Will continue to experiment and see what changes.
Post by: nenjin on May 09, 2023, 12:16:41 pm
And ya know.....it's actually pretty good.
It's a completely different flow than the first game. Faster. Way more things to look at moment to moment.
Granted, it loses the individual hero progression so it's hard to feel attached to your heroes. But there's plenty of meta progression, and the roguelike nature of play means if someone dies you don't feel like walking away from the game in frustration or feeling compelled to save scum.
There's so many bits and bobs on this game compared to the last one, the first few runs were a bit confusing. Especially because the tutorial handles things a little different than the full game.
Combat feels about the same but there's just a ton more things going on now. So many more buffs, debuffs, enemy moves, all of it tied to skills. Some moves do additional things if another move puts a "Combo Token" on a player or enemy. Can set up some good synergies once you've taken the time to really study the skills and all the hero classes.
Quirks seem cooler now. Or at least, less -5% to yadda yadda.
The relationship system I dunno about. You really have to push it to get good or bad results out of it. Or maybe it comes out more in a full playthrough. But TLDR, people are on good terms with each other and skills on each hero removes stress or grants buffs for their friend when used. The same is true in reverse if they don't like each other. It's a bit shallow IMO and doesn't really add to the narrative much. It's just another widget in a game full of widgets. That said, having your entire party friends with each other can yield a lot of combat benefits.
Heroes can, if they survive an entire run, be used again with the same skills and upgrades. And more besides that if they survive multiple runs. So I guess there's the run to run continuity if you actually can complete runs.
And there's the meta progression upgrades for heroes too.
As I said, I'm not a huge fan of most of the progression being meta but I think I'm coming around.
The Hero Stories are a nice touch too. It breaks up the monotony of the wagon ride and combat encounters to stop and have a nice little evolving story, maybe with some actual gameplay, in each region.
All that said, the game looks great and is polished to a mirror shine. The atmosphere is excellent. The music is good, the actual wagon riding visuals are great. I appreciate the new look of heroes and enemies. Didn't think I would, and I agree their attacks lack a little punch compared to the first game. But still good. Wayne June is great too, although I'd say his performance is less forceful and vital-sounding than in DD1. He's probably just getting old like the rest of us.
I can't say this is a straight recommend to fans of DD1. It's a very different feeling game in many ways. But I think it's definitely worth a look.
Post by: Aoi on May 09, 2023, 04:03:49 pm
My laptop liked to choke up on the driving scenes for some reason, and getting shortchanged on that always felt lousy.
Post by: nenjin on May 09, 2023, 06:30:18 pm
Can I also just say that:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aoi on May 10, 2023, 01:21:17 am
"What ailments do I need to prep for in the cove again?", "What gives the enhanced reward for this curio?", "What mechanic does this boss have?"... once you have those answered (discovered, memorized, whatever), it's just a matter of avoiding too much RNG screw and figuring your acceptable level of risk.
Post by: nenjin on May 10, 2023, 10:10:39 am
Post by: nenjin on May 11, 2023, 11:29:22 am
Got my first win with 3 heroes surviving, which is the only easy win you get. After your first win in Chapter 1, you have to beat a region boss to get access to the boss fight in the Mountain in later chapters. And they are not easy fights. But it's good. I can see a way forward and losing a run doesn't hurt that much because you're still getting plenty of progression in various places.
Favorite line so far: "Tread carefully. This is Swine country."
Post by: nenjin on May 12, 2023, 11:04:17 pm
Chapter 2. I start out with Helion, Flagellant, Grave Robber, Plague Doctor. I see the Dreaming General region boss within the first few nodes and figure, fuck it, at least get the achievement and maybe a chance at the end boss.
The fight is brutal. Many meltdowns from the Grave Robber and Flagellant. The Helion and Plague Doctor go Resolute and become life long buddies for the rest of the run.
Shortly after the Dreaming General the Grave Robber bites it because I'm so beat up from the Dreaming General fight. I complete the rest of the first region with 3 party members, close fight after close fight after close fight.
At the 2nd Inn, I pick up the Man-At-Arms and head out. He immediately becomes Suspicious of the Flagellant. And I stupidly forget to reorganize my party so he is at the back.
The very first fight is a tough one, especially with Suspicion firing off on the abilities it does, and the Man-At-Arms is killed in the fight. So I go through all of the 2nd region with again, three party members. Many, many more nail biter fights. Honestly if it weren't for the bond between the Helion and the Plague Doctor, the run would have tanked already. I'm 0/3 Armor and 1/3 Wheels by the end after having a breakdown.
But we make it to the third Inn. I get the Leper. He immediately becomes Suspicious of the Flagellant, and Hateful with the Helion. It really seems like late additions to your party "catch up" on feels immediately and it's often negative. I even plied the whole party with booze and card games and they still came out mad. I don't get the relationship change notifiers, or how the system actually works. If someone has a 6/20 blue relationship and a 12/20 Gold......WTF does that mean!
Anyways, we set off. Things are going ok, even though the Helion now loves to stab the Leper in the back when he lands successful hits. I go to a Lair fight, and it doesn't go well. By the end of the 2nd round, almost everyone is at 10% HP or less, with more than a few Death's Doors. Tough fight, but the whole run has been like that and we made it, right?
Spoiler: And then this bullshit happened. Legit spoiler here. (click to show/hide)
Mmmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn that shit is cold.
Post by: Aoi on May 13, 2023, 04:05:48 am
Favorite line so far: "Tread carefully. This is Swine country."
"Isn't this a disinfectant?"
If someone has a 6/20 blue relationship and a 12/20 Gold......WTF does that mean!
...
Chapter 2. I start out with Helion, Flagellant, Grave Robber, Plague Doctor. I see the Dreaming General region boss within the first few nodes and figure, fuck it, at least get the achievement and maybe a chance at the end boss.
...?
Blue is bad, gold is good. That's it. At least this game does the mercy of making relationships reciprocal; I remember playing Zafehouse: Diaries where one guy absolutely loved everybody else, and they all hated him to the point they literally threw him to the zeds. Also, by virtue of how relationship changes work, they tend to tilt in one direction, and are nigh impossible to get out of.
You start getting a chance of relationship synergies at 4/8/14/17, with below 4 and 8 being negative synergies. Most 14+ synergies take the form of -1stress, but I had an amorous (17+) relationship between Dismas and Paracelsus that gave the PD health every time the HM used Pistol Shot. Combo that with a trait that gave him regeneration, and he was getting like 7hp/turn without doing anything.
Try the boss of The Sprawl if you want an easy entrance to the Mountain, and a pretty useful trophy for a crit team; I just did him on Chapter 2 as the very first encounter and came out around 80% intact. Having said that, my team is pretty good for taking him down.
Spoiler: Boss notes. (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on May 13, 2023, 01:37:37 pm
Favorite line so far: "Tread carefully. This is Swine country."
"Isn't this a disinfectant?"If someone has a 6/20 blue relationship and a 12/20 Gold......WTF does that mean!
...
Chapter 2. I start out with Helion, Flagellant, Grave Robber, Plague Doctor. I see the Dreaming General region boss within the first few nodes and figure, fuck it, at least get the achievement and maybe a chance at the end boss.
...?
Blue is bad, gold is good. That's it. At least this game does the mercy of making relationships reciprocal; I remember playing Zafehouse: Diaries where one guy absolutely loved everybody else, and they all hated him to the point they literally threw him to the zeds. Also, by virtue of how relationship changes work, they tend to tilt in one direction, and are nigh impossible to get out of.
You start getting a chance of relationship synergies at 4/8/14/17, with below 4 and 8 being negative synergies. Most 14+ synergies take the form of -1stress, but I had an amorous (17+) relationship between Dismas and Paracelsus that gave the PD health every time the HM used Pistol Shot. Combo that with a trait that gave him regeneration, and he was getting like 7hp/turn without doing anything.
Try the boss of The Sprawl if you want an easy entrance to the Mountain, and a pretty useful trophy for a crit team; I just did him on Chapter 2 as the very first encounter and came out around 80% intact. Having said that, my team is pretty good for taking him down.Spoiler: Boss notes. (click to show/hide)
So are positive/negative feelings essentially two values that get tracked separately? And if either hit the threshold something develops? I know it checks every Inn and there's a chance for something to develop. I just feel the UI is a little confusing.
Post by: Aoi on May 13, 2023, 03:14:16 pm
If someone has a 6/20 blue relationship and a 12/20 Gold......WTF does that mean!
...?
Blue is bad, gold is good. That's it. At least this game does the mercy of making relationships reciprocal; I remember playing Zafehouse: Diaries where one guy absolutely loved everybody else, and they all hated him to the point they literally threw him to the zeds. Also, by virtue of how relationship changes work, they tend to tilt in one direction, and are nigh impossible to get out of.
You start getting a chance of relationship synergies at 4/8/14/17, with below 4 and 8 being negative synergies. Most 14+ synergies take the form of -1stress, but I had an amorous (17+) relationship between Dismas and Paracelsus that gave the PD health every time the HM used Pistol Shot. Combo that with a trait that gave him regeneration, and he was getting like 7hp/turn without doing anything.
So are positive/negative feelings essentially two values that get tracked separately? And if either hit the threshold something develops? I know it checks every Inn and there's a chance for something to develop. I just feel the UI is a little confusing.
It's on a sliding scale of 0-20, between each pair, and appears to be reciprocal, so there's 6 of them? (AB, AC, AD, BC, BD, CD) I guess it doesn't HAVE to be reciprocal, but I haven't ever seen the values in a pair deviate yet, so I've been assuming it is. (As a further indicator of this, when you use a deck of cards, it shows six pairs of pulses.)
When there's a blue mood, it means the relationship meter has gone down, and a gold icon, it has gone up-- I'd say it's actually pretty straight-forward, so it may be a case of over thinking it?
Edit: Oh wow, I just got two negative synergies, with everybody having at least 11 relationship... but there was a +10% negative relationship passive effect running at a time.
...Wait, was the PD always female?
Post by: Sirus on May 13, 2023, 05:21:52 pm
Post by: Aoi on May 13, 2023, 05:49:39 pm
Plague Doctor? Yeah she's always been female as far as I know.
Huh. I remember there being a Workshop mod that was something like "Female Plague Doctor" that... gave her implants (as it turns out...). It wasn't an outright eroticization of the art, and given the title, it sounded like it was a genderswap, so... yeah.
Post by: nenjin on May 13, 2023, 06:37:52 pm
Quote
Edit: Oh wow, I just got two negative synergies, with everybody having at least 11 relationship... but there was a +10% negative relationship passive effect running at a time.
Like a lot of this game, there are SO many things going on in the background (so to speak, it's all there) that you get outcomes you don't expect. The more I look at it I think I was over-thinking the relationship meter....but then you have instances like the one you just mentioned where you THINK everything was fine but it's not.
I did manage to beat the Sprawl boss. The first attempt was a wipe with him at Death's Door. The second, he didn't even finish the last stack of books. Same party. The difference was that I upgraded damage skills rather than healing and defensive ones. Seems like DPS is still king in this game. Or at least if you want to go for an early lair boss.
Think about doing an all knife party. Highwayman, Plague Doctor and Occultist spec'd for melee, Grave Robber spec'd for Daggers.
Also I didn't realize that tokens do expire. Seems like around 3 turns if they don't get used up. I feel like they should probably print that in the tooltip.
TBH, I really want a combat log so I can try to understand all the stuff that happens a little better. A friend and I are both playing this and there are so many exceptions to what seem like the rules. They all have their reasons but catching them when they happen can be tough.
Post by: nenjin on May 13, 2023, 07:07:15 pm
It was kind of a dream run. Beat the Sprawl Boss early, recovered nicely, kept my relationships out of the gutter. GR critting and doing 25+ damage sometimes with thrown daggers. Synergy with Dismas just further enhanced both of them. MAA trinkets stacking Block and Armor on everyone. At one point I did hit 4 Loathing, which now I know what that means. It didn't change the outcome of the final fight though.
All four of my heroes survived the fight, and other than 1 big attack which? I don't think was even supposed to happen, I had almost no problems with the fight. The first Confession boss honestly seems way harder. The second seems closer to your classic DD puzzle boss.