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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Aslandus on August 30, 2014, 01:37:33 pm

Title: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Aslandus on August 30, 2014, 01:37:33 pm
Does anyone else look at the prepared foods and try to imagine what kind of food it actually is? The dwarves seem content to call everything roasts, biscuits, or stews, but it doesn't seem adequate in every case...

for example, I see a roast made of flour, flour, flour and sugar and assume it's a pastry, perhaps a large bready cake with some icing on top, or mussel, shad, cheese, and strawberry would probably be a shad stuffed with mussels and strawberries with cheese on top

Any interesting things you've found your dwarves cooking?
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Art on August 30, 2014, 01:50:49 pm
I totally try to imagine what it looks like too.

Plump helmet biscuits sound like a fun, if simple, fantasy meal.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: SixOfSpades on August 30, 2014, 05:46:41 pm
I just found out that the majority of my "Plant" stocks was hide root & blade weed (both inedible), and the majority of my "Other" foodstuff stocks was tallow (edible, but turned off because yuck). So, lately my dwarves have been cooking an awful lot of 100% tallow roasts.

Farming will resume next year.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 30, 2014, 05:53:10 pm
I do this all the time!

I think a Flour stew would be some sort of thick chowder with bread.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: than402 on August 30, 2014, 06:07:49 pm
i find it rather easy to imagine how a stew made of plump helmet,dwarven ale and pig tail seeds would look like.i imagine beer biscuits as using something simple and stable as a main ingredient regardless of whether the description mentions it,and simply being cooked with beer for flavour.when i see a roast made out of cat tallow,gray langure eyes,dwarven sugar and pig milk,however...yuck
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Agent_Irons on August 30, 2014, 06:09:00 pm
Sauteed eyes in a sweet cream sauce! Delicious.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 30, 2014, 06:50:43 pm
i find it rather easy to imagine how a stew made of plump helmet,dwarven ale and pig tail seeds would look like.i imagine beer biscuits as using something simple and stable as a main ingredient regardless of whether the description mentions it,and simply being cooked with beer for flavour.when i see a roast made out of cat tallow,gray langure eyes,dwarven sugar and pig milk,however...yuck

That is a cake. Instead of butter, we have tallow. Sugar and milk equals pastries. I don't know who the hell eats eyes, but hey. Spell Happy birthday with them.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: wierd on August 30, 2014, 07:07:14 pm
Pastry needs oil. It is not optional. The thicker, heavier, and creamier the lipid, the better.

This is because it is the oil that allows the pastry to form layers, and the layers are what make if flaky and crisp. Traditionally, the best oils to use were hard white lard, white tallow, and cold butter.

You can also use vegetable oils if you chill then whip the bejeebus out of them, but that requires litterally freezing temperatures. (Like, in the deep freeze. It also requires you to either work VERY fast, or to have to keep returning the unfinished pastry to the freezer; if you take too long working the dough, it wont come out right though. That's why you should probably use that saturated, hard fat-- white lard, hard tallow, or chilled butter instead. Just throwing this little aside in for those vegans that want pastry without the animal products)

For the most part, dwarven cuisine is not something I would care to imagine--- In fact, so much so that I have seriously contemplated a cooking mod for the kitchen workshop.

Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: than402 on August 31, 2014, 05:57:25 am

That is a cake. Instead of butter, we have tallow. Sugar and milk equals pastries. I don't know who the hell eats eyes, but hey. Spell Happy birthday with them.

and after reading that and constructing the mental image,i don't think i will ever eat cake again  :)

a lot of people eat eyes.fish eyes are considered a delicacy in some places(especially if the fish is big enough),and animal heads are used for soup.not too long ago,meat was quite expensive,so when an animal was slaughtered they didn't let even one part go to waste.


For the most part, dwarven cuisine is not something I would care to imagine--- In fact, so much so that I have seriously contemplated a cooking mod for the kitchen workshop.


that would be very interesting.especially if you found a way to put quality levels in boozes and generally make better quality drinks
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Aslandus on August 31, 2014, 09:22:23 am
Pastry needs oil. It is not optional. The thicker, heavier, and creamier the lipid, the better.
My knowledge of all things pastry is a little low, so I'll defer to your judgement on that, but I stand by my statement about 3 flour + 1 sugar making essentially a big loaf of bread with sugary glaze on top


For the most part, dwarven cuisine is not something I would care to imagine--- In fact, so much so that I have seriously contemplated a cooking mod for the kitchen workshop.


that would be very interesting.especially if you found a way to put quality levels in boozes and generally make better quality drinks
I imagine drink quality would be about brewing time (longer time = higher quality) and skill (for factors like not dropping dirt into the drink you're brewing), so I imagine it would come to a tradeoff:

Do you make more drinks with your expert brewers that make the fortress happy and sell for more dorfbucks, or many drinks to make sure you have enough so your dwarves don't have to drink water...
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Quartz_Mace on August 31, 2014, 09:52:31 am
My Dwarves mostly just eat turkey eggs and whatever meat or fish we can trade for. All plants get brewed into alcohol, which is imperative because there is no fresh water on the surface. So, I imagine their having scrambled eggs and wine for breakfast, poached eggs and some fruity drink(we live in a forest for lunch, and wine and a nice roast for dinner. I'd assume these would look pretty good because Dwarves appear to have perfected food storage and preservation, making me assume their worth preservation.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Mokkun on August 31, 2014, 10:35:01 am
a lot of people eat eyes.fish eyes are considered a delicacy in some places(especially if the fish is big enough),and animal heads are used for soup.not too long ago,meat was quite expensive,so when an animal was slaughtered they didn't let even one part go to waste.


you mean like this dish? http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalahove
And no, I have not tried it..

and ontopick
I do seem to get stuff like minced hen egg, minced duck egg minced dwarven beer and minced turkey hen egg. that sounds interesting.. and something that might be haggis or shepards pie, Forgotten beast brain roast, minced prepared dingo lung, minced sheep heart, minced cave crocodile lung and minced prepared forgotten beast brain.
and tons of other strange made stuff..
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Baffler on August 31, 2014, 10:43:15 am
I try hard to get dwarves eating mostly prepared meals, sometimes to distraction when I try to get the cooks to mix ingredients in specific ways. In my current fort flour, eggs, fish, and imported garden vegetables and fruits are what is mostly used in cooking. It doesn't take much imagination to figure what a biscuit made with rye flour and rye flour would look like, or rye flour and eggplant, or whatever.

The stews and roasts are more interesting. I've made myself hungry more than once (as I have writing this post) imagining what a rye flour (I figure they'd be dumplings,) shad, and potato stew would taste like; or roasted roach (fish) with strawberries and a poached egg on the side, with a garnish of finely cut amaranth leaves or cooked in rum to taste.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 31, 2014, 11:05:04 am
i find it rather easy to imagine how a stew made of plump helmet,dwarven ale and pig tail seeds would look like.i imagine beer biscuits as using something simple and stable as a main ingredient regardless of whether the description mentions it,and simply being cooked with beer for flavour.when i see a roast made out of cat tallow,gray langure eyes,dwarven sugar and pig milk,however...yuck
Some kind of bastard cheese cake made of fat milk and sugar and topped with monkey eyes.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: wierd on August 31, 2014, 11:32:17 am
As interesting as the "grab it and throw it in a pot" method is, (considering what comes out)-- it still doesnt hold a candle to my own imaginings of what those dwarves could be making with these new ingredients.

There is now enough raw culinary material to make truly gourmet food products. Seriously.

Try this on for size:

Stuffed eggplant, (with cheese-stuffed mushrooms, diced ham and barley) braised in red wine sauce on rice pilaf; with a vinaigrette side salad of crumbled feta-like cheese, red and green spinach leaves, slivered cabbage, crumbled boiled egg, shaved carrot and iceberg lettuce; next to a hearty chicken and vegetable soup made with diced chicken, carrots, onion, celery and potatoes; followed up with a scrumptious mixed berry (Blackberry, Raspberry, Blueberry) tart (Made with wheat flour, dwarven sugar, and cow tallow, along with said berries).

Aside from missing an obvious meat entrée, that's a 4 course meal, and with ingredients now found in-game. (well, vinegar isnt in yet, but that's an easy fix.)

It wouldnt be that hard to implement more sensible meal preparation. Since we are preparing meals, break it down into entrées, then assemble those entrées into meals.


Mostly, I look at the ingredients that dwarves have access to now, and see this huge canvas of culinary potential, and am disappointed that it isnt being painted. :(
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Tacomagic on August 31, 2014, 11:38:22 am
I hope we all remember the Syrup Roast.  The one made from minced Syrup.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: TheHossofMoss on August 31, 2014, 12:28:37 pm
Dwarven Sugar Biscuits FTW!

I just imagine those as sugar cookies.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: wierd on August 31, 2014, 12:32:28 pm
Not hard to imagine at all.

Sounds a lot like peanut brittle, without the peanuts.

Could also have a consistency similar to say, fondant, however.

Means of preparation is very important. It is literally the difference between puff pastry, and something that is inedibly hard.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: than402 on August 31, 2014, 01:50:43 pm
you mean like this dish? http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalahove
And no, I have not tried it..

yes,that is exactly the thing i had in mind when i wrote that.i have tried a very similar dish in Megara.i was with a friend and we were returning from our vacations,when we felt hungry,so we stopped to eat.the thing is,there was only one tavern in the town that we knew of,and it was kind of early so they hadn't prepared much.only chicken,and...roasted lamb head!out of curiosity,we ordered both the chicken and the head...

it was better than it sounds,actually.the brain was particularly nice...

there was also a family of tourists nearby.the look on their faces as they watched us ate the head was priceless:a mix of disgust,fascination,and plain"wow,these assholes are eating this thing for real?"

and wait,it gets worse.much worse.

http://www.okinawahostels.com/files/u2/fish-eyes-heiwadori-market-naha.jpg (http://www.okinawahostels.com/files/u2/fish-eyes-heiwadori-market-naha.jpg)

is there a way to make a roast only out of drinks,or is the game sane in that department?how do you guys think it would look like?
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Miuramir on August 31, 2014, 03:22:51 pm
.... Since we are preparing meals, break it down into entrées, then assemble those entrées into meals. ...

I'd like to point out that the vast majority of "medieval-ish" societies don't feature meat as a default component.  Usually, the core of a diet is a starch... bread-like products (loaves, biscuits, hoe cakes, pastry cases, etc.) from a grain (wheat, rye, oat, etc.), potato, corn (maize), rice, manioc, legumes, pulses, squashes, and so on.  The better-quality ones of these also have significant other dietary contribution, including protein.  For peoples that need more energy (active workers, warriors, cold-climate dwellers, etc.), you'll see more supplementation with fats and alcohols to provide higher energy density.  Meats are typically a comparatively small part of overall diet; they may be culturally significant as luxury or ceremonial foods, or sparingly used as an accent. 

Cultures in cold climates will typically have a lot more meats and alcohols; cultures in hot climates will typically have a lot more fruits.  But I'd say that you've got things backward from a historical perspective (and much of the world even today): what you label as "filler" is actually the core of the meal, around which everything else is ultimately organized. 

I've got some more thoughts forming on fundamentally fungal-based cuisines; we've got far fewer historical examples to draw on, but I'd guess at a start that the plump helmet fills in a role that's vaguely analogous to squash: partway between vegetable and core starch. 
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Baffler on August 31, 2014, 04:02:10 pm
Plump helmets are the only "dwarven" crop that can be eaten raw, and I would guess that they are the most widely produced and therefore the most widely consumed. On the other hand, there are three other more specialized underground crops that Dwarves eat in some form. Cave wheat is milled into flour, sweet pods into sugar or syrup, and quarry bushes are grown for their leaves and to press rock nuts, either into a paste or for oil. There are also a few other uniquely Dwarven foodstuffs, like Dwarven cheese. I don't think I've ever actually seen a purring maggot though, so I'm inclined to view this as a delicacy.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: wierd on August 31, 2014, 07:33:55 pm
.... Since we are preparing meals, break it down into entrées, then assemble those entrées into meals. ...

I'd like to point out that the vast majority of "medieval-ish" societies don't feature meat as a default component.  Usually, the core of a diet is a starch... bread-like products (loaves, biscuits, hoe cakes, pastry cases, etc.) from a grain (wheat, rye, oat, etc.), potato, corn (maize), rice, manioc, legumes, pulses, squashes, and so on.  The better-quality ones of these also have significant other dietary contribution, including protein.  For peoples that need more energy (active workers, warriors, cold-climate dwellers, etc.), you'll see more supplementation with fats and alcohols to provide higher energy density.  Meats are typically a comparatively small part of overall diet; they may be culturally significant as luxury or ceremonial foods, or sparingly used as an accent. 

Cultures in cold climates will typically have a lot more meats and alcohols; cultures in hot climates will typically have a lot more fruits.  But I'd say that you've got things backward from a historical perspective (and much of the world even today): what you label as "filler" is actually the core of the meal, around which everything else is ultimately organized. 

I've got some more thoughts forming on fundamentally fungal-based cuisines; we've got far fewer historical examples to draw on, but I'd guess at a start that the plump helmet fills in a role that's vaguely analogous to squash: partway between vegetable and core starch.

This is true, but from that perspective, the major food item is "pottage".  Pottage is basically anything that is cooked in a pot all day, and usually consisted of boiled grains and vegetables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage

That would basically be a simple vegetable entree.

Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Aslandus on August 31, 2014, 07:59:36 pm
you mean like this dish? http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalahove
And no, I have not tried it..

yes,that is exactly the thing i had in mind when i wrote that.i have tried a very similar dish in Megara.i was with a friend and we were returning from our vacations,when we felt hungry,so we stopped to eat.the thing is,there was only one tavern in the town that we knew of,and it was kind of early so they hadn't prepared much.only chicken,and...roasted lamb head!out of curiosity,we ordered both the chicken and the head...

it was better than it sounds,actually.the brain was particularly nice...

there was also a family of tourists nearby.the look on their faces as they watched us ate the head was priceless:a mix of disgust,fascination,and plain"wow,these assholes are eating this thing for real?"

and wait,it gets worse.much worse.

http://www.okinawahostels.com/files/u2/fish-eyes-heiwadori-market-naha.jpg (http://www.okinawahostels.com/files/u2/fish-eyes-heiwadori-market-naha.jpg)

is there a way to make a roast only out of drinks,or is the game sane in that department?how do you guys think it would look like?
You need a solid base food in-game to cook something, you can't just turn syrup and beer into candy unfortunately. If you could though, it would probably end up as a pretty musky tasting soup...

Plump helmets are the only "dwarven" crop that can be eaten raw, and I would guess that they are the most widely produced and therefore the most widely consumed. On the other hand, there are three other more specialized underground crops that Dwarves eat in some form. Cave wheat is milled into flour, sweet pods into sugar or syrup, and quarry bushes are grown for their leaves and to press rock nuts, either into a paste or for oil. There are also a few other uniquely Dwarven foodstuffs, like Dwarven cheese. I don't think I've ever actually seen a purring maggot though, so I'm inclined to view this as a delicacy.
So plump helmets are like cave apples, you could theoretically make them to only thing your fortress grows/eats/brews, but it won't be very efficient use of space or resources when the other crops offer more output and diversity with slightly more work
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Aristion on August 31, 2014, 08:22:28 pm
I know it is from MWDF but stomach pancakes anyone?
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Saiko Kila on September 01, 2014, 12:57:50 am
Pastry needs oil. It is not optional. The thicker, heavier, and creamier the lipid, the better.

This is because it is the oil that allows the pastry to form layers, and the layers are what make if flaky and crisp. Traditionally, the best oils to use were hard white lard, white tallow, and cold butter.

You can also use vegetable oils if you chill then whip the bejeebus out of them, but that requires litterally freezing temperatures. (Like, in the deep freeze. It also requires you to either work VERY fast, or to have to keep returning the unfinished pastry to the freezer; if you take too long working the dough, it wont come out right though. That's why you should probably use that saturated, hard fat-- white lard, hard tallow, or chilled butter instead. Just throwing this little aside in for those vegans that want pastry without the animal products)

I don't know what definition of pastry is used here, because not all what I understand as pastry is flaky and crisp, but you can use vegetable oil for every dough I know. Even puff pastry can be made without butter, the original version from ancient Greece was made with olive oil. You need some chilling for it to work better, but standard fridge temperatures (well above freezing) are enough. Since the standard underground temperature in DF is basically the same as standard temperature in fridges (middle or upper), that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: wierd on September 01, 2014, 04:07:30 am
choux pastry (puff pastry) is different from traditional pastry;

It has to be mixed a special way, but gets piped out then baked. It would be the most amenable to unsaturated veggie oils.
Most other pastry has to be rolled out and folded repeatedly. This makes things like danish pastry, baklava pastry, and pals.
There's also piecrust dough, which is a kind of pastry. This can easily be made with chilled veggie oil but the end product is inferior to those made with lard, tallow, or crisco shortening.
Then there is stuff like tortes and quiche-- Those are made from shortbread pastry dough.

The one thing they all have in common though is oil or fat of some kind. Again, it is NOT optional. :D The oil is necessary for it to be pastry, and not hard tack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry

Note the chemistry section; Hard, stiff oils work better than liquid ones. (This is why freezing the oil to make it "goopy" can alleviate this, and produce a superior pastry with normally liquid oil, but again, requires one to work quickly.) This is one of the reasons why hydrogenated oils (Transfat and pals) are routinely used in making snack cakes and other processed food items; it's cheap, it's effective, and it wont anger vegans. (just health nuts and the american heart association.) The hydrogenation process turns runny vegetable oils into stiff, hard oils (that you cant digest, and which will clog up your arteries.)

There are some natural vegetable oils that would be suitable for making pastry without having to be chilled/frozen, but they often have strong flavors of their own: Cacao butter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_butter), coconut oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_oil), palm kernel oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_kernel_oil), and pals. They are also, ALL OF THEM, very bad for you since they are loaded with saturated fat (which is also why they are thick and heavy/creamy lipids.)

Palm kernel oil is the cheapest of the three, and has the least offensive flavor. Cacao butter could be useful for some specialty pastries however, where the flavor of the oil would be of beneficial character (say, in pie crust for a chocolate creme pie); but would not be advisable for general pastry use. Similar with coconut oil.

*loves cooking. always has. Deserts especially.

Chilling the dough has more to do with supressing/retarding gluten strand formation (when used with runnier lipids) than it does with improving the working qualities of the lipid. Freezing the oil in the freezer will turn it into a "snot like" consistency, which can be used in conjunction with chilled flour and icewater/chilled milk to make a decent pastry; better than simply chilled dough alone can produce.







Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Agent_Irons on September 01, 2014, 04:21:04 am
I think my favorite thing about dwarf fortress is the forums, and my favorite thing about the forums is that you periodically get people who show up and just are like 'AH YES THIS, I KNOW ALL ABOUT THIS' and for every person it's a different thing. Historically accurate metalworking. Pastry. Fungus-based diets. Attack tokens. Dinosaurs. Some are more applicable to dwarf fortress than others, but everyone has one, and we're all here.

(wierd, you kept saying 'and pals' and for some reason every single time I read it as something from the previous category that was foreign but literally named 'pals'. "Huh, what a strange foreign dessert, this 'pals'. I wonder if it's greek." "Why haven't I heard of pals oil before? It sounds delicious" It was only in writing this post musing on your strange passion for pastry that I figured it out. ::) )
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: gunpowdertea on September 01, 2014, 08:52:29 am
.. and then we all have quite different definitions of what we would call "pastry". I was under the impression that everything baked, cake or biscuit like could qualify (and then there are people that call a main dish Entrée, which is French for starter and Scampi is a sauce, which is Italian for a crustacean, and...)

But this has made me hungry! I'd like to do some decent cooking tonight, but I have to bake bread... I guess I should head home soon.
Title: Re: Dwarven cuisine
Post by: Dunamisdeos on September 01, 2014, 10:43:59 am
Quote
Historically accurate metalworking. Pastry. Fungus-based diets. Attack tokens. Dinosaurs.

This. Is. DWARF FORTRESS!!

Anyway, I imagine the ones made from nothing but tallow to be doughnuts, krispy kream style.