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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

Title: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

Beginner's Mafia XLI

Behind Enemy Lines

"Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."

Several years had passed. Several fruitful years from since the incident (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115600.0) of insubordination and treachery in the realm. Several years of peace and prosperity. The kingdom was whole, and safe from external threats once more. The people rejoiced as walls were constructed, patrols were enforced and curfews were made; for despite the added sense of security, they knew that they would sleep soundly once again.

However, many oft forget that internal dangers are the root of any downfall. Deep in the heart of the realm, there were plots against the King. His sole heir was the target of few--seemingly lackluster assassination attempts, but other than that, nothing else was of note.

Until one day...

---

The People

Player List [7/7]

• RangerCado -- Town Cop; Lynched D1!
• Griffionday - Escaped ; Mafia Role Cop, D3
• Lenglon - Escaped ; Vanilla Mafioso, D3
• Cheesecake -> birdy51 -- Vanilla Town; Died N1
• griffinpup -- Jailkeeper; Died N2
• Demdemeh > nightcrafter27 - Left Behind, Vanilla Town; D3
• Shinigami_King > TheWetSheep - Left Behind, Vanilla Town; D3

Playing ICs [2/2]

• Vector -- Vanilla Town; Lynched D2
• Captain Ford > Leafsnail -- Vanilla Town; Lynched D3

Scum IC [1/1]

• Toaster - Escaped ; Conscience.

Replacements [In Descending Order][/]

• Borno
• Keestram
• -

Spectators/Observers

• lordnincompoop
• Scelly9
• Jim Groovester
• *Dariush
• *Shakerag

Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XLI. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, your goal is onefold: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperienced challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you can not always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

---

Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles (Experimental (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536) roles in *)

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Doctor (Town) - A doctor may choose a single player to protect during the night, preventing that player from being nightkilled.
*Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Roleblocker (Mafia) - A roleblocker may choose a single player to block, preventing that player from performing his action.
Godfather (Mafia) - A godfather appears town to Cop inspections.
*Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

There is no limit to the number of Vanilla Townies or Mafiosos the game may have, but all other roles have a maximum of one.

Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)

Here is the list of potential role PMs. This is to discourage flavor claiming from confirming role.

SCUM//MAFIA ROLES

Quote

-Mafia Godfather placeholder-

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Being the Godfather, you are immune to Town Cop results -- showing up as Town to any inspects laid on you. You may speak with your allies in the scumchat: -

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

Quote

-Mafia Role Cop placeholder-

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Every Night you can choose to Inspect any individual to discover their Role {which will read: Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper...}. You cannot inspect yourself. You may speak with your allies in the scumchat: -

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

Quote

-Mafia Roleblocker Placeholder-

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Being the Roleblocker, you are able to Roleblock any individual who you deem worthy of being disabled for the night. The roleblock stops any action of the target from occurring. You may speak with your allies in the scumchat:

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

Quote

-Vanilla Mafioso Placeholder-

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Being a Mafioso, you have no other abilities but the shared Nightkill of your faction during the Night. You may scheme and discuss with your allies in the scumchat:

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

TOWN ROLES

Quote

-Vanilla Town Placeholder-

((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote

-Town Cop Placeholder-

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Inspect any individual to discover their alignment {which will read: Town or Mafia}. You cannot inspect yourself.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote

-Town Doctor Placeholder-

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Protect any individual, except yourself from the Mafia Nightkill, thereby saving the target if the same target was singled out for death during the Night.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote

-Town Jailkeeper Placeholder-

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Jail any individual, except yourself. This saves the target if the same target was singled out for death during the Night but also blocks the target from acting. This does not stop any inspects from working on the target, however.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

---

Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  • Tiruin,
  • Vote Tiruin,
  • Tir,
  • Vote Scumbag Tiruin,
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a trainwreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing my game altogether without notifying me, I will come looking for you.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received.
• Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted.
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten.
  • Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread. I know this won't stop some of you.
• Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.

---

Resources and Guides


Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"

Dak: Meh.  Why?

Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"

Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."

Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"

Dak: "He looked scummy.."

Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"

Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."

Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"


Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.

If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:


Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true motives.  Pull more from them.  DON'T LET GO!  Even if the town ignores you or even votes for you because of it, DO IT ANYWAY!  Push, push, PUSH, ***PUSH*** until you have solid proof of what they are.

If you can't find enough to prove them and run out of things to say, check one more time to see if you still feel he's scum, then pull back, look at others (Step 2) but be ready to go back to them at any time.  If your convinced and ready to kill them, Step 4

Step 4: Final step.  It's time to convince the town.  Show what you have.  Push the target so they show more scumminess.  Attack, but do it only to demonstrate to the town what you KNOW is true.  You aren't trying to argue with the mafia anymore.. you are trying to show the town why you are right and Mr.Mafia MUST be lynched.  If you are at this point, only 3 things can happen:

1.  The scum is lynched.
2. You are given so much information that you become CONVINCED that the target is town. (no less than CONVINCED.. doubt, maybe, 'perhaps' won't due)
3. You are dead.



That's how a basic scumhunt is done.  One last note on doubt:

Doubt is something that's ok to have but UGLY to show.  If you doubt or have second thoughts, DON'T DISPLAY IT.  If you think "He looks passive but I don't know..."  you SAY "You scum!  Stop being passive!!!"  If you think "He may have a good reason to attack guy really." say "Give me your reasons and stop being vague."

Doubt is something for yourself.  When you have doubt, go back and see if your original ideas still hold up.  If they do or if you find yourself saying "I'm not sure" then go back to the attack until you are sure.  This ain't the USA: we play by Guilty until Proven Innocent here.  Unless you can get yourself to believe they may be honest, keep the attack.

So doubt is ok to have if used right.. but the town does NOT need to hear it.  If you doubt, accuse anyway as if you know.  If you wonder, accuse as if you know it.  If you know the answer, ASK ANYWAY and let THEM answer.  Make them convince you they are town: don't do the job for them.


And that's scumhunting in a nutshell.  Everyone, try to figure out what Step you are on and work accordingly.  Note that you should be almost done Step 1 by the end of Day 1 (though some may be higher by then).  If you aren't, keep random voting and consider an Extension.

If you don't know WHAT you are.. you're in Step 1.  Get to random voting.

Last note: 'Not voting' should only be done when you are doing a quick look over everyone's past.  Otherwise, your vote and your attention should always be on SOMEONE, even if it is at random.

It's best for a lynch to be for a reason reason.. but it's better for someone to be lynched randomly than for no lynch to occur at all.

Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide)

Alignment - Who you share a victory condition with. Town-aligned, Scum-aligned, or third party alignments.

Bandwagon - Multiple votes on a single person. Can be justified, or unjustified. Unjustified bandwagons are scummy. Joining bandwagons blindly or without reason is also scummy.

BM - Beginner's Mafia (Or, Bastard Mod, a Mafia game with a purposefully unreliable moderator, or misleading information)

Bus - (noun: the bus ; verb: bussing, throwing him/her under the bus) When a mafia member attacks another one in order to make themselves look like a loyal townie when his or her scumpartner gets lynched.

Cult - A group of players that share a win condition, know each other, and can communicate freely. They are generally a second type of scum, although rarely they can be town-aligned. Instead of a kill, they can recruit players into the cult. There is generally a cult leader, who is in charge of recruiting.

FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.

FTD - Failure to Deliver, also known as Toaster's #1 Scumtell. The act of promising to post more information at a later time, and then failing to do so. A very difficult action to justify as town, because it means you are either lazy or lying, it is therefore seen as a pretty solid scumtell.

IC - Inexperienced Challenged, players who are too experienced to justify playing in a Beginner's Mafia, and act as mentors/guides for the Town or the Scum.

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

LYLO - Lynch or Lose, a situation where Town only outnumbers Scum by a single person (e.g. 3 town vs. 2 scum). During LYLO, Town MUST lynch Scum or instantly lose.

Masons - A group of town-aligned players who know each other to be town-aligned. They can communicate with each other freely.

MYLO - Mislynch and Lose, a situation where Town outnumbers Scum by two people (4 town vs. 2 scum). During MYLO, if Town lynches Town, Scum will win after night-killing town, making it 2 town vs. 2 scum, which is an instant scum win.

NL - No Lynch, to choose to end the day without lynching anyone and see if any information is revealed in the night.

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

PFP - Posting From Phone (or Profession), throwing up a short post to prove you aren't lurking, when you are too busy at the time to make a more complete post.

PL - Policy Lynch, lynching someone for reasons other than scumminess. Variants are Lynch All Lurkers, Lynch All Liars, etc. Also see: Org.

PPE - Pre-Post Edit, typically done when you go to either Preview or Post and notice that someone else has posted before you. PPE is shorthand for acknowledging the "Warning - You may wish to review your post" message.

RIA - Refuge in Audacity, acting really crazy or really scummy to make people think that you couldn't possibly be scum because of how crazy you are. This never works. Neither does sarcasm in general, really. If you want to be sarcastic, make it painfully obvious you are being sarcastic, with <sarcasm>fake sarcasm tags</sarcasm>. Even still, it's not a good idea, because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS

Role - Also called Power Role, any special powers you have. Cops, doctors, roleblockers, and godfathers are examples of classic roles. Some roles are alignment-specific, some aren't, and some can be for any alignment.

Rolefishing - Any question or attempt to learn information about someone's role. Typically something done at the beginning of the game. Typically a scum move, because it is in scum's advantage to find and lynch powerful roles. Can be acceptable later in the game, or in special circumstances where it is beneficial for town to learn someone's role. The reason it is scummy is because the really powerful town roles want to stay hidden so they don't get lynched by scum, and bringing attention to them by rolefishing risks their secrecy.

RVS - Random Voting Stage, the early-early game, shortly after the game begins, where people randomly vote each other and ask each other different questions, trying to find any good reason to suspect someone.

Scum - Mafia, or someone who isn't aligned with the Town. The Informed Minority.

SK - Serial Killer, a third party role with a nightkill, and who is hostile to everyone.

Survivor - a third party role whose win condition requires that they be alive at the end of the game. Normal players can die and still win as long as their team as a whole wins, but a survivor must actually be alive at the end.

Third Party - an alignment that is independent of scum and town. Has a unique victory condition, and is typically a lone wolf type character.

Town - The anti-Scum. The uninformed majority.

Vanilla - Someone who doesn't have a power role. "Vanilla Town", "Vanilla Scum", etc.

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

WoT - Wall of Text; a really really long post. Sometimes unavoidable, but generally you should try to keep them to a minimum. Sometimes scum use them to seem more active then they are.

Massclaim - When everyone starts roleclaiming, or saying they are a power role.

Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)

(Thanks to IronyOwl for making the orig. version!)

Scumtells are things that someone does or says that imply that they're scum. Usually the reasoning is that it's bad or not productive for townies to do it, so it can be hard to distinguish signs of being scum from signs of being a noob. This is one of the reasons scum almost always win beginner's mafia games.

Note that scumtells are very very subjective; there's no simple way to distinguish a scumtell from a noobtell from being justified and/or lazy. Whether a justified, non-scummy version of a scumtell should still be called by its normal name varies from person to person. (Someone might describe their voting of someone who voted them as "not an OMGUS," other would say it's "a justified OMGUS" for instance)

In any case, common scumtells include:

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum.

OMGUSing: Short for Oh My God You Suck, by the way. Voting or otherwise applying pressure to whoever's voting you. It implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

Defending/Chainsawing: Defending just means what it sounds like: saying things to defend another player's actions or words. Chainsawing or chainsaw defending means attacking someone who's attacking another player in an attempt to get them to stop. The idea in both instances is that townies don't know if their fellow players are innocent or not, and hence have no real reason to defend them from legitimate persecution. Scum, on the other hand, know they're on a team and so are prone to not wanting their buddies found out or pressured.

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

Passiveness: This is when a person refuses, simply hasn't or seems reluctant to take a stance, such as lynches. Scum will be concerned about their image, and thus don't want to be seen supporting a town lynch or an attack on a town.

Backtracking: When a person changes their stance on a subject after stating it, such as supporting a lynch and after doing so claiming that they didn't do it. This is very suspicious, and is often a sign of scum wanting to retreat their position so as to be able to save their face.

Lying: Well this should be obvious, right? It happens when someone fakeclaims (says they're a cop/doc, but is just town for example), fabricates evidence and stuff like that.

Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning.

Quote from: Argembarger

Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Blackmailing the town, like "You can lynch me, but you'll be sorry when you see I was town all along!"
Voting yourself for any reason.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Oh my god this game seems fun. But wait, what are the rules?
  This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0) is a good Mafia tutorial, brought to you by the wise JoshuaFH. Heed his words. It isn't included here because it's rather too long for that.
• People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?
  The first and most important order of business is not to give up.
  One, two votes isn't much. Even if someone's got a bandwagon on you and people are writing walls of accusations, do not lose hope. You can still turn this around, no matter how bleak it appears. Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.
  The other players have nothing against you: it's just how the game goes. Even if you foul it up and people yell at you for it, once the game is over we're all friends.
  There are still people who give up, saying things like "You'll all be sorry when you find out I'm just town afterwards!" and "I'm not even going to try, there no way to stop this". Don't be that guy. Not only is it rather selfish, it will simply deepen your grave. You have to get out of it with real, meat-laden arguments, and these empty threats and remarks will only make you appear more scummy.
• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  You can often tell with the help of the List of Common Scumtells, provided below, but don't make the mistake of overusing it. Not every accusal against you is an OMGUS, and not all attempts at logic are WIFOM.  If in doubt, always remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. Don't take anything for granted.
• What's all this wine stuff that players keep talking about? Does Mafia cause alcoholism?
  They are likely referring to the concept of WIFOM. It's a name for the kind of circular reasoning that you'd find when scrutinising scum motives, and is described in the CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia below. It goes like this:
  
  A: Why didn't our most active player get killed? It would be the scum's goal to kill the most active players to remove accusal, wouldn't it? The only conclusion is that [active player] is scum!
  
  B: Or is it? What if the scum wants to keep the most active player to draw suspicion on him? The scum could then head the attack on this player, thus pushing themselves into a position of trust amongst the town! I've got my eye on you, A!
  
  A: No, that isn't right! Clearly, they would stay in the background, and the people who go for the bait like me would be attacked by the scum, thus making themselves appear insightful! B, how dare you do this to me!
  
  B: Or perhaps the scum would be someone voting for a person that isn't the subject of a bandwagon, thus appearing both inconspicuous and independent! [lurker], you are scum!
  
  As you can see here, both A and B are making wild speculations on the motives of the scum. Their votes and eyes are all over the place, and nothing is really getting done. It distracts from real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that, not speculating on how people would or would not play.

---

This is my second time modding. If any mistakes are made, in the votecount or in other events, please inform me immediately.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Jim Groovester on May 16, 2013, 12:25:44 am

Watching.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: RangerCado on May 16, 2013, 12:26:01 am

Lets not die In the second day this time :)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 12:26:02 am

Posting to watch.  Considering ICing.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Scelly9 on May 16, 2013, 12:31:41 am

PTW

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Griffionday on May 16, 2013, 12:49:05 am

In

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Lenglon on May 16, 2013, 02:04:54 am

In

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Cheesecake on May 16, 2013, 05:19:46 am

In This is my first mafia game so I won't be that good. I'll also be posting from my phone most of the time so I probably won't post long paragraphs.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 16, 2013, 07:07:56 am

Watching.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: griffinpup on May 16, 2013, 07:38:00 am

IN!!!. Yay.  This should be fun

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Demdemeh on May 16, 2013, 07:47:16 am

Am I in time?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 07:57:48 am

...That was fast!

One more player needed and a few ICs. Wonder if the game can start by the weekend, or if possible, even before that :P

Note ahead that it'll be flavor-y (narrative and whatnot), which means nothing at all but eye candy to the reader!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Griffionday on May 16, 2013, 09:17:38 am

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 16, 2013, 05:19:46 am

In This is my first mafia game so I won't be that good. I'll also be posting from my phone most of the time so I probably won't post long paragraphs.

I don't know what type of phone you have; but the following code helped Ranger post normally formatted posts:

Code: [Select]

[hr] - "horizontal rule"
[br] - "line break" (Enter)
[color=red][/color]
[color=blue][/color]
Controlled cynicism if your greatest strength as town, I've no experience as scum but this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88720.msg4135564#msg4135564) might help (continues on the next page).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 09:29:35 am

TBH, your first game got me doubting that you were town after the first day, but only for a second as a rolled my eyes at the idea :P

That was an awesome (yet a very confusing) first game.

@Cheesecake: Being good all depends on you! And brevity is usually a good way of developing how you'd interact given that this is a forum Mafia. Don't worry though, phone posts are good enough.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Griffionday on May 16, 2013, 09:50:43 am

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 09:29:35 am

TBH, your first game got me doubting that you were town after the first day, but only for a second as a rolled my eyes at the idea :P

That was an awesome (yet a very confusing) first game.

So apparently I need to work on being read as town still... ah well who doesn't.  And yes it was.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 12:32:33 pm

I'll take Scum IC if no one else wants it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 01:57:57 pm

IN Woo almost didn't make it!

This time we will get them for sure guys! Also, hello Lenglon, no time no scum hunt.

---

Tiruin, if we have everyone already do you have any guesses as to when this is going to start?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: RangerCado on May 16, 2013, 02:10:35 pm

Shinigami... we need ICs first. (Not sure why you asked me to post this when your sitting right next to me)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 02:12:38 pm

It is so people don't question me and my dumb-assery. People are going to call me scum before we even begin this shindig.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: RangerCado on May 16, 2013, 02:12:54 pm

My work here is done.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 03:15:17 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 01:57:57 pm

Tiruin, if we have everyone already do you have any guesses as to when this is going to start?

Either by Monday or by Monday. So if this goes on after Monday, then Tuesday.

Repeat until conditions are met.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 03:48:48 pm

If I in as an IC, then

a. I will not be here for a week in a month or so

b. I will ask that the game be suspended until Tuesday, when I finish graduating and moving back home.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: birdy51 on May 16, 2013, 04:16:20 pm

IN!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Lenglon on May 16, 2013, 05:05:16 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 02:12:38 pm

It is so people don't question me and my dumb-assery. People are going to call me scum before we even begin this shindig.

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!

:P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 05:54:39 pm

IC In

This will be fun and interesting playing from the other side of the fence.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:04:36 pm

Can we use a setup that isn't horribly biased against the town this time?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 06:16:56 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:04:36 pm

Can we use a setup that isn't horrible biased against the town this time?

You know, I'd like to see that.

How about we give the town a one-shot combined unicorn magistrate (vegetarian)?

...in all seriousness a little power-up couldn't hurt.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 06:27:22 pm

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 06:41:12 pm

Huh, sounds good.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 06:45:02 pm

I am for that.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 07:35:53 pm

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

---

Quote

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 :P

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  >:( If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 07:44:25 pm

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 07:53:36 pm

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: TheWetSheep on May 16, 2013, 07:55:05 pm

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:06:55 pm

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 08:18:17 pm

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:31:30 pm

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 09:10:43 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 03:48:48 pm

If I in as an IC, then

a. I will not be here for a week in a month or so

b. I will ask that the game be suspended until Tuesday, when I finish graduating and moving back home.

At this rate, I can run it over the weekends (because no day timer) but this is fine too :)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:04:36 pm

Can we use a setup that isn't horribly biased against the town this time?

Let's do that (I'm just a mod, the people's voices reign supreme). I'll be reading up the meanings of a Mafia role cop and those jailkeepers.

I'll rename the title to an experimental BM? As for now, debate on it. I'm all for any setup :3

Fixed the OP, we're actually all set but I'd prefer if everyone's comfy and ready (also, finals until Tuesday so if I was with Vector, I'd be high-fiving her over the matter...)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines
Post by: zombie urist on May 16, 2013, 09:13:32 pm

I'm okay with it, but with Toaster scum still might win.  :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Lenglon on May 16, 2013, 09:38:06 pm

I'm not sure which version of mafia i'm thinking of when people say jailer. could someone confirm if this is right for what it can do?

Jailer is pro-town, and has a single-target night action, which it can use as many times at it wants, but only once per night.
Jailer's night action prevents anyone else from acting on their target, including cops, redirectors, etc. for the duration of the night.
Jailer's night action prevents their target from performing any night actions whatsoever for the duration of the night.
Jailer gets a private chat with the person they have jailed for the duration of the night.
Jailer is anonymous in this private chat.

is this correct?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 09:46:14 pm

In this context, points 1-3 are correct while 4-5 are not.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 11:49:36 pm

I've been doing a bit of thinking on the matter:

Spoiler: Suggestion (click to show/hide)

1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Seeing that the Mafia are fixed (or...there are 2 vanilla mafiosos, perhaps?), the only deviations are on the town side.

The Mafia faction has a...Cop, right? One that investigates people?

Anyway, seems pretty much balanced to me here--all depends on how the players do it in. The setups are a form of confirmed power roles (so there is no chance of a full vanilla game), if I'm not mistaken.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Dariush on May 17, 2013, 01:06:24 am

Forty BMs and someone dares to do something deviating from the rigidly enforced standard? Unbelievable. Spoilspec plz.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: borno on May 17, 2013, 01:16:03 am

Dang, missed it. I'll go into the Replacement list please.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 17, 2013, 07:31:32 am

This sounds like a fine setup.  One question though.  When a jail keeper role blocks somebody, does it keep that person from being killed in the night?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Lenglon on May 17, 2013, 07:36:26 am

yes

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Leafsnail on May 17, 2013, 08:03:17 am

Quote from: griffinpup on May 17, 2013, 07:31:32 am

This sounds like a fine setup.  One question though.  When a jail keeper role blocks somebody, does it keep that person from being killed in the night?

Yeah - it's like a doctor and a roleblocker combined into one.  The usual flavour is that you barricade their door (although it doesn't prevent cop inspections).

It should be noted that the Jailkeeper isn't told if their action did anything, and neither is the target (although cops will know if they're blocked because they won't get a result).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 11:18:39 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 16, 2013, 09:38:06 pm

I'm not sure which version of mafia i'm thinking of when people say jailer. could someone confirm if this is right for what it can do?

Jailer is pro-town, and has a single-target night action, which it can use as many times at it wants, but only once per night.
Jailer's night action prevents anyone else from acting on their target, including cops, redirectors, etc. for the duration of the night.
Jailer's night action prevents their target from performing any night actions whatsoever for the duration of the night.
Jailer gets a private chat with the person they have jailed for the duration of the night.
Jailer is anonymous in this private chat.

is this correct?

Yeah, like Leafsnail said, point 2 is wrong. The jailer only prevents kills, a cop could still get an inspect result on a jailed player.

Question 1: If the jailer targets his killer, does it stop the kill?
Question 2: If the jailer targets the cop, and scum kill the jailer, is the cop blocked?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Toaster on May 17, 2013, 12:06:07 pm

Typically, roleblocks happen first (otherwise what was the point) so I would rule:

1:  Yes.
2:  Yes.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Leafsnail on May 17, 2013, 12:11:26 pm

Kills never stop actions from happening (except inspects I guess).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Toaster on May 17, 2013, 12:15:29 pm

Not for my games- it's always funny to send "Target is Mafia.  You are dead." to players.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 17, 2013, 01:16:06 pm

That's what always happened :P

But still, there isn't an action-time list or something like that set down?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 17, 2013, 02:40:04 pm

As far as I know, not for BMs. I always had to contrive that when I ran mine, some time ago.

You could always just go with Natural Action Resolution (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 03:35:19 pm

Quote from: lordnincompoop on May 17, 2013, 02:40:04 pm

You could always just go with Natural Action Resolution (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution).

That's exactly what I was thinking of. Under NAR, a kill would stop a roleblock, as actions are processed in an order that allows everything a chance to affect everything else.

I think the two questions I asked are the most important corner cases to work out.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 17, 2013, 03:39:12 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 03:35:19 pm

Quote from: lordnincompoop on May 17, 2013, 02:40:04 pm

You could always just go with Natural Action Resolution (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution).

That's exactly what I was thinking of. Under NAR, a kill would stop a roleblock, as actions are processed in an order that allows everything a chance to affect everything else.

I think the two questions I asked are the most important corner cases to work out.

No, it wouldn't. Read the clause below that, which says this: "Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player."

And that's how it should work.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 04:01:15 pm

Oh hey, how about that. Nifty.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 17, 2013, 04:10:16 pm

Well, it makes sense that regardless of the state of the jail keeper, be it dead, alive, or stupid, that the roleblock would still work.  The barricade wouldn't suddenly disappear as soon the jailkeeper died.

I also move that the DM start the game and let us newbies blunder around over the weekend to learn what the heck we're doing.  Even if we can't have adult supervision. :-) I think that it would help us learn and possibly make a better decision when it comes to lynching time the first day.  Pretty much, why don't we make the first day super long?  We already have everyone.

P.S.  can  you guys see my avatar?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 05:56:18 pm

A second the motion to start the game. I think I qualify as adult supervision.

Also, no, I can't see your avatar. It must be hiding.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Vector on May 17, 2013, 05:57:28 pm

All right, I'll in as an IC.  Where do you want me?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 17, 2013, 07:58:12 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 17, 2013, 05:56:18 pm

Also, no, I can't see your avatar. It must be hiding.

Darn it! I've been working with him, but he's still scared of new people.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 17, 2013, 08:59:10 pm

So you want me to start the game... without sending the role PMs, huh. :P I love that enthusiasm.

Am in the works doing it now! Game will probably start tonight, when I can get my flavor ready...

Quote from: Vector on May 17, 2013, 05:57:28 pm

All right, I'll in as an IC.  Where do you want me?

/me points at the Royal Counselor position.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: birdy51 on May 17, 2013, 10:07:16 pm

Welp, good luck! I will be waiting on standby.

To be truthful, I was hoping to join in on this one from the get go, but I suppose such plans don't always work out! I will have to be faster next time. Good luck to all the players in this match!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 17, 2013, 11:02:52 pm

The game is starting tonight? How late? I'm only really free until 9:40 PST

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: RangerCado on May 17, 2013, 11:05:38 pm

You'll have a good three days before day end if your not awake shinigami. You don't have to be around imediately for game start

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 17, 2013, 11:11:30 pm

I don't know... Not being on all night does seem pretty scummy...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: borno on May 17, 2013, 11:30:57 pm

I totally think that if you're not on immediately after the game starts you should replace out. It's for the good of the other players, but not so that I can get higher on the replacement queue  ;)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 08:12:54 am

 :-[  looks like it didn't start last night...  Oh well.

Any timeline so far Mr. Omnipotent Tiruin?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 18, 2013, 08:36:54 am

XD

Enthusiasm. I like that. Now let me work on the PMs because at GMT +8 (check my profile for local time--I'm busy checking up Leafsnail for that handy timezone clock he has), it is 9:39pm and I'm tired from study/exams/work of the days.

Also, listened to an ex-pilot about aerodynamics and flight. That was wonderful.

Now wait :I Please?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Toaster on May 18, 2013, 08:41:54 am

Tiruin is on the opposite side of the world from the US, so if you live there her night is your morning.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 08:59:46 am

Come on DM, wakey wakey!  I need my hit of mafia this weekend.  I had to bide my time with a suggestion game instead.

P.S.  No disrespect meant, of course.  All my comments have been in joking and fun, made by a brain that thinks too much, and makes inside jokes with itself.  Gotta love me! :D

Seriously though, take all the time you need.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 18, 2013, 10:31:00 pm

All those post edits XD

But of course. Sending in the mail. . .

Now.

...After checking up Leafsnail on that timer thingy :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:05:52 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 08:12:54 am

:-[  looks like it didn't start last night...  Oh well.

Any timeline so far Ms. Omnipotent Tiruin?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: RangerCado on May 18, 2013, 11:08:31 pm

Griffin! Be careful! You'll get torn apart if you mix up the genders here... (hides from vector)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Tiruin on May 18, 2013, 11:09:46 pm

This is how the day start will look like.

Spoiler: Just wait because I haven't sent your PMs yet. (click to show/hide)

((Two Traitors are hiding amongst you nine. Each day, you may vote off one person for the lynch through the majority.

Days come and go in 72 hours, nights take 48 hours. Weekends are not counted in the timer [and therefore act as added time in the Generic Calendar/Clock, linked in the date].))

Let the Game begin.

---

Vote standings:

• RangerCado -
• Griffionday -
• Lenglon -
• Cheesecake -
• griffinpup -
• Demdemeh -
• Shinigami_King -
• Vector -
• Captain Ford -

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 22, 2013 [Wednesday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130522T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)! Keep watch, and keep your vigilance!

There is a link which shows the day end. :3

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:12:57 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 18, 2013, 11:08:31 pm

Griffin! Be careful! You'll get torn apart if you mix up the genders here... (hides from vector)

Oh, yes.  F everyone's I, I'm a woman.  I recommend that you don't forget it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: RangerCado on May 18, 2013, 11:14:58 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:12:57 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 18, 2013, 11:08:31 pm

Griffin! Be careful! You'll get torn apart if you mix up the genders here... (hides from vector)

Oh, yes.  F everyone's I, I'm a woman.  I recommend that you don't forget it.

...I already said sorry :( ... Do you want cookies or something?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:16:30 pm

No, this isn't a warning for you, it's a warning for all the new folks.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 11:21:54 pm

I have one question.  Will extending a day always require four votes, regardless of how many players are in?  That would be kinda silly, especially if we got to 1 mafia and 2 town.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: RangerCado on May 18, 2013, 11:23:25 pm

Okay, but still, take some cookies... In fact, everyone have some cookies! Cookies make everything better!

Griffin: It will lower the more players die.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 11:35:18 pm

Vector, do you prefer chocolate or vanilla cake?  I'm making some preemptively for when I mess up genders farther along the road. :-\

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: zombie urist on May 18, 2013, 11:40:27 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted.

• Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten.
• Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.

Please please please read the rules.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: griffinpup on May 18, 2013, 11:51:02 pm

Urist, I'm reasonably aware of the rules, but was making sure that turiun's post about 4 votes required to extend the day only applied to the first day.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:57:17 pm

Feh.  I like key lime pie ._.

I'm not a massive hardass or something.  I don't mind people getting it wrong from time to time, but I'm really tired of the "why do you care that we assume you're a dude" folks.  Who may not necessarily be y'all, but "really tired" is something of an understatement.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2013, 10:29:33 am

Quote from: Vector on May 18, 2013, 11:57:17 pm

Feh.  I like key lime pie ._.

That is pretty tasty stuff, yo.

*steals slice*

Title: Re: BM XLI: Behind Enemy Lines -- Experimental Setup
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:31:54 am

Quote

Feh.  I like key lime pie ._.

Welp, looks like I just made a friend! We should eat pei together sometime... yup. Also

Quote

Okay, but still, take some cookies... In fact, everyone have some cookies! Cookies make everything better!

You know I'm going to hold this to you. This Thursday at lunch by the latest... You will be getting me cookies boy!

---

Quote

That is pretty tasty stuff, yo.

*steals slice*

Just saw this post. You are invited too.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 19, 2013, 10:48:02 am

"Providence lies in Truth. In Truth, lies Freedom."

"By the names of all Gods on high, what happened here?"
"Milord, I just found it here. The body-"
"'It' is the royal messenger, boy! Call him by what honor he deserves!"
"Ahem, sorry sir. His royal body was just slumped here when I arrived-"
_{"Bloody nobles and their wordplay."}
"-buried in a pool of blood. Cause of death seems to be a deep laceration to the jugular--he's been hit by a knife or a dagger.

"Luckily, the killer may've forgotten that the Aerie is protected by the highest magics in the land, and the most knowledgeable architects and engineers--save only for misdirection. Whomever did this would be marked until justice has been done."
"Yes, yes. And?"
"And what?"
"Give the conclusion m'boy!"
"Err, well. The only ways the mark would show are either under great stress: heightened emotions, adrenaline and all that or via great and excruciating pain. Death is a better term, but that would be too easy."

It was a sunny morning. A perfect day wherein all the land and sea around the Tower could be seen. The Aerie had been a monument to the legacy of the King, and of his people--a bastion of transport and word wherein one could travel the world, riding through the sky on heaven-bound wings.

The scene before you along with the voices coalesce into wisps of air and disperse to the winds wafting through the room from the skylights, leaving you all left in the Meeting Hall. A woman calls your attention after dispelling the illusion. She spoke in a light, yet authoritative tone.

"That is the cause of your being here. All nine of you, save myself, are the closest suspects we could find. What wasn't said was that we had found what the messenger was bearing, a missive from the King himself to some organization--we didn't look, ok, but we know that it is still with the killer, or someone deeply affected by the death. That killer, or killers if you'd really be that desperate are still nearby and we'd do all means to ascertain the innocent from the guilty."

Obviously not a native speaker of Common, but still holding the gist of authority. Most of you glance around and see others carrying the same thought. Tension was in the air as all knew the methods of the Aerie in extracting information. 'Playing' with the war griffins, 'Volunteering' for target practice, 'Cleaning' the chamber pots and 'Washing' the dishes...there was too much to think of.

"But," the woman says, "due to the recent events and the mandate of the Grand Marshall--we're not torturing any single one of you. He says that this plan is held much throughout the realm and is more...'practical' than hearing information from the tortured firsthand."

An audible sigh is heard in the crowd.

"So we're leaving you all to do it yourselves."

What.

"Do what you must, I've inscribed this here granite chessboard with a timer. When the Black King falls, let's see your verdict, people. No person may exit the hall until the game is done."

And there is was. The treasure beneath the waves. Of all people and professions gathered: guardsmen, soldiers, adventurers, farmers, merchants, bakers and the like, even the nobility wasn't held out of contempt. You had to be suspected. Of course, everyone just had to have a spare knife around, but that didn't mean people used it to kill (other people). Just for everyday work and all.

The air settles into staleness as everyone moves towards the roundest round table nearby, taking a seat and waiting for the first person to break the calm. The grating sound of a chess piece on rock resounds in the distance.

It was a Sunday.

---

((Two Traitors are hiding amongst you nine. Each day, you may vote off one person for the lynch through the majority.

Days come and go in 72 hours, nights take 48 hours. Weekends are not counted in the timer [and therefore act as added time in the Generic Calendar/Clock, linked in the date].

If you've any questions or things pertaining to your role, PM the Moderator [Tiruin].))

Let the Game begin.

---

Vote standings:

• RangerCado -
• Griffionday -
• Lenglon -
• Cheesecake -
• griffinpup -
• Demdemeh -
• Shinigami_King -
• Vector -
• Captain Ford -

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2013, 10:50:33 am

Go team scum!

Good luck and have fun, all involved.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Welp, RVS go!
This is my first RVS so I hope I make you proud everyone!

---

RangerCado- I'm sure you are aware of my prevalent intelligence IRL. How do you feel about going up against me in this game of mafia?
Griffionday- It is Mylo, you have two suspects and one person you trust. You have less information on the one who is an IC and more scumtells on the non IC. What actions do you take? (Yes I am using the same situation I was in in my last game)
Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?
Cheesecake- Have you read any other games. What is your preferred play style.
Griffinpup- who do you see as a formidable adversary? Why? (This is based off of RVS Q&A and pregame comments so there isn't much to go on.)
Demdemeh- You are scum and your scumbuddy is alive. Everyone is pointing their FOS at you. How do you get out of your sticky situation?

---

I wont be able to post again until around 4-5 PST due to work. Until then Ciao~

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Lets get the ball rolling!

Shinigami: Your the cop and its mylo. You know who the last scum is but they've been everyones top town pick for the whole game. How would you convince everyone to lynch him?

Ford: Who of the non-IC players do you think would pose the biggest threat to town if they were scum?

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

Vector: Same question as Ford.

Griff(griffionday): Its the night before mylo and your the cop. You've confirmed a townie night one but were blocked night two, with your last target dying night 3. Your possible targets are a rather aggressive yet stubborn player who placed the second vote of 4 on the mafia lynch, and a quiet player who opposed the lynching of the mafia player before flip, but has made solid cases across the board. Who do you inspect why?

Lenglon: Which IC would you be afraid of if they were scum? Why?

Cheesecake: Which IC would you prefer for a scum buddy? How about non-IC?

more later, leaving for church right now.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

What a horrible way to try to find the murderer. They might as well sell gallery tickets to watch us tear each other apart. Who would design something so.... horrible?

Welp, it's RVS time.

Ranger: Here's a hypothedical for you, It's Day 2, you're a cop. Night 1 you investigated the person who, sadly, turned out to be that night's casualty. someone else has just claimed cop, and is saying that one of the other players is town. do you claim? if not, who do you investigate the following night?

Griffons: What is the relationship between you two?

Cheesecake: another hypothedical. It's Day 2, you're mafia. you did the NightKill on Night 1, someone has just claimed Watcher (a power role that lets you see who visited someone else, and who they were visited by, but not what was done). they say they saw you visit the person you NightKilled that night. They also claim that one of the townies visited you. the townie has not responded, but they said ahead of time they would be busy for the next two days IRL. what role do you fakeclaim?

Demdemeh:hypothedical number three. it is 5-man-LYLO. you're mafia A. townie B is voting for mafia C. Townie D is voting mafia C. Townie E is voting townie B. mafia C is voting townie B. there are no hammers. the case on mafia C is a strong one. the case on townie B is moderate, but not weak. do you bus mafia C or vote townie B?

Shinigami:what do you think the odds are of a non-scum IC reaching MYLO or LYLO without being NK'd?

Vector:your hypothedical is the same as Cheesecake's, but with a slight twist. first off, you're a mafia godfather, not a normal mafia, secondly, the townie who visited you is not afk, but has instead refused to claim and isn't giving an explanation why. what role do you claim?

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

---

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?

Haha, ok, um, presupposing I were scum, I'd try to act as much like I would as town as possible. Any differences would be scumtells. I might even flat refuse to open the scumchat, simply because if having the scumchat changed my gameplay then that would be a scumtell.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Lenglon: Which IC would you be afraid of if they were scum? Why?

Either one. sadly I dont know enough about them to say which one is scarier. I really dont want a repeat of last BM though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Ranger:
Wouldn't there be three people who I haven't inspected?  Because one person will die in the night, and there need to be four people alive for there to be mylo.  The situation you're creating actually requires this as well, because (as there is no godfather in this setup) an inspect will positively identify one, and therefor negatively identify the other.

Anyway, I would probably inspect the aggressive but stubborn one (out of three posible ones).  I have a hard time identifying those traits as anything other than scummy; so an inspect will help me avoid a miss-lynch.

---

Shinigami:
Press the hell out of the IC, as it's safe to assume the IC will press the scummy player.

---

Ranger and Lenglon:
There are critical differences in how griffinpup and I (Griffionday) spell our names...  So his relation to me is currently indeterminate.  He's new and has yet to post, but he's eager and seems like he'll be a good player to have in the game.

---

RVS:
Ford:  You seemed to accept the changed role list without any fuss, so I'm assuming you think that it will re-balance the game toward town.  Can you comment on how the lack of an doctor will effect the game?
Vector:  I feel part of the problem I had pressing you last game was tied to you being gone most of the time and not wanting to cause you overmuch more work (I'm very familiar with the pressure school can exert); and truthfully I considered you to be a bit of a flight risk.  How would you advise dealing with these emotions in the future?
Ranger:  Hypothetical: you are the jailkeeper, and you are considering targeting a player.  You consider him to be scummy (about even with, maybe a little more than your other targets), but he's been tunneling one player which has made you suspicious that he's the cop.  How do you act?
Shinigami: (How do you like your name shortened?) I don't believe I've played a game with you before... What do you consider to be the ideal form of scum hunting?  As in: what methods do you think will give you the clearest read on whether someone is scum or not?
Demdemeh:  You were fairly quiet for the pre-game, and you've not been very active in the sub-forum (to the best of my knowledge).  What about the game interests you?  Do you think that playing as scum or town provides the more exciting challenge?
Lenglon: So... 5 (out of 7) questions that pertain to how to play as mafia... Something on your mind?
Cheesecake:  Whom of the more experienced players (in the forum in general) do you look up to and plan on emulating?
griffinpup:  GLEE! Another person who likes griffins!  What did you think when you noticed we have similar names?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:38:06 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Lenglon: So... 5 (out of 7) questions that pertain to how to play as mafia... Something on your mind?

Yeah, I was frustrated that last BM I wasn't able to use WIFOM properly. I want to try to get into people's heads and figure out where they'd jump when and why. as before I dont plan on sharing anything WIFOM based until i can form it into something solid... and hopefully more accurate than I was last time.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:41:41 pm

Griffionday: lemmie give you another hypothedical. It is 6-man MYLO, early in the day. You are vig. someone just claimed vig, claimed your kill(s), and is leading a bandwagon against you. there are no hammers. do you claim?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

(Tiruin: kudos for flavor!)

Good morning, my young fellows and as-yet undiscovered fellowettes.  I will, for at least the first part of this game, not be using an IC voice, because I think it's necessary that you learn to think through the full import of folks' statements.  At the same time, I also promise that I will put your education above my own hubris, and play as clearly and transparently as possible.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Vector: Same question as Ford.

Whoever's feeling the best-rested and most bored.

Actually, maybe you?  Out of all of the players I've encountered here, you're the one who seems to have the least qualms about lying.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Shinigami:
Press the hell out of the IC, as it's safe to assume the IC will press the scummy player.

No, it isn't.  The IC has a responsibility to teach you how to play, and that doesn't always mean leading by example and doing the dirty work.

(However, I am going to try to personally hold off on my habit of acting intentionally scummy in this game, so you are right that there are some boundaries)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Vector:  I feel part of the problem I had pressing you last game was tied to you being gone most of the time and not wanting to cause you overmuch more work (I'm very familiar with the pressure school can exert); and truthfully I considered you to be a bit of a flight risk.  How would you advise dealing with these emotions in the future?

I think that usually depends on the player.  To be honest, it's appropriate to just ask, very blatantly and openly.  There's usually an honor among thieves in this game, an unwritten understanding that you won't say "I am having psychological problems" in order to get out of being pressured as scum when you're really doing just fine.  So, trust people until they give you a reason not to.

The other thing is that if I've remained in the game, then that means that I'm ready and willing to play.  If you'd tried to pressure me into doing a full reread, I would have eaten you alive (town OR scum).  If you'd just decided to ask me questions about my opinions on the proceedings, I would have been fine with it.  If a person isn't going to do at least that much, then they should be replaced, anyway.

So, I would say: assume that the other person isn't lying about their problems, but also that they can take care of themselves, and that they're in the game for a reason.  And then play, with the understanding that if you cross a line, you'll be warned and you can back off from it.  You need to work on developing your confidence.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Griffionday- It is Mylo, you have two suspects and one person you trust. You have less information on the one who is an IC and more scumtells on the non IC. What actions do you take? (Yes I am using the same situation I was in in my last game)
Griffinpup- who do you see as a formidable adversary? Why? (This is based off of RVS Q&A and pregame comments so there isn't much to go on.)

Don't use this sort of qualification of your statements.  Defending yourself before anyone has attacked you makes you look nervous and worried; it takes out the tooth, which is what you're going to use to scare your opponents into telling you what you need to know.

Remember, when someone attacks you, or doesn't attack you, you get information from them.  Above anything else this is a game of information acquisition and dispersal.  So play openly and aggressively, but don't give away all your secrets too soon.

---

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Cheesecake: another hypothedical. It's Day 2, you're mafia. you did the NightKill on Night 1, someone has just claimed Watcher (a power role that lets you see who visited someone else, and who they were visited by, but not what was done). they say they saw you visit the person you NightKilled that night. They also claim that one of the townies visited you. the townie has not responded, but they said ahead of time they would be busy for the next two days IRL. what role do you fakeclaim?

[...]

Vector:your hypothedical is the same as Cheesecake's, but with a slight twist. first off, you're a mafia godfather, not a normal mafia, secondly, the townie who visited you is not afk, but has instead refused to claim and isn't giving an explanation why. what role do you claim?

They've refused to claim, which means that they have some sort of sensitive power role (usually, unless they're a pathological liar like Cado ;)).  Eh... if I'm in a low-power-role setup like this one and they're not claiming, it means that they don't know my alignment or what I did, so they're likely the doctor or something similar.  If I was seen killing my target then that means I'm probably going to have to throw myself under the bus, so if I'm not playing with an advanced group I'll probably counter-claim watcher and try to rally the town to get the other guy killed, assuming I'll be dead by the end of the night anyway; I'd have a target or two I'd try to make the town think of as my scumbuddy.  Then I'd NK the townie who refused to claim and leave the rest of the game to my partners.

Otherwise I'd claim that I'm a bus driver and that I swapped the dude and my scumbuddy.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?

Haha, ok, um, presupposing I were scum, I'd try to act as much like I would as town as possible. Any differences would be scumtells. I might even flat refuse to open the scumchat, simply because if having the scumchat changed my gameplay then that would be a scumtell.

Lenglon, why aren't you answering his question?  You sound awfully nervous, my dear squidling, my best beloved.  Why, you're even typing out your nervous laughter!  And then there's this...

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:38:06 pm

Yeah, I was frustrated that last BM I wasn't able to use WIFOM properly. I want to try to get into people's heads and figure out where they'd jump when and why. as before I dont plan on sharing anything WIFOM based until i can form it into something solid... and hopefully more accurate than I was last time.

Why aren't you focused on this BM?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Lenglon, why aren't you answering his question?  You sound awfully nervous, my dear squidling, my best beloved.  Why, you're even typing out your nervous laughter!  And then there's this...

did you notice the :P emoticon? he was funning, referencing last BM. I wanted my answer to be in a similarly light-hearted tone. the reason I didn't answer his question directly is quite frankly, this early in the game all someone can do is act on basic general principals, if he'd given me a more complicated situation I'd give a longer answer. Unless you're asking for me to provide a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire mafia game? i'd be willing to do this, but for my sanity, please name a hypothedical scumbuddy for me, and tell me which one of us is supposedly the role cop. I'm to lazy to bother writeing out a giant GRAND MASTER PLAN for every single possible combination, and anything that far-reaching would require customization to the specific situation.

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:38:06 pm

Yeah, I was frustrated that last BM I wasn't able to use WIFOM properly. I want to try to get into people's heads and figure out where they'd jump when and why. as before I dont plan on sharing anything WIFOM based until i can form it into something solid... and hopefully more accurate than I was last time.

Why aren't you focused on this BM?

I want to learn from my mistakes. What's wrong with trying to improve? It should be obvious that i'm focused on the current game.

oh, and what's a squidling? the mental image i'm getting is some kind of aquatic zergling, but you might be talking about baby squid or something else.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:43:03 pm

Vector: here's your next hypothedical: it is 3-man LYLO, you're Serial Killer. there were 2 Night Kills last night. nobody has claimed yet. do you claim vig?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

On a break, so this will be short.

---

Sorry for missing you two wonderful IC's~~
Both of you get the same question. In the last BM, Deathsword utilised his IC voice in order to change our perspective of who was scum in multiple places. Was he in the wrong or the right. How so? Vector, you answered before I could ask but Ford, how will you use your IC voice.

---

Quote

Don't use this sort of qualification of your statements.  Defending yourself before anyone has attacked you makes you look nervous and worried; it takes out the tooth, which is what you're going to use to scare your opponents into telling you what you need to know.

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

Quote

Shinigami: (How do you like your name shortened?) I don't believe I've played a game with you before... What do you consider to be the ideal form of scum hunting?  As in: what methods do you think will give you the clearest read on whether someone is scum or not?

Shinigami is fine thank you. I guess if you're in a rush you could say something like "Shini" or "SK" but shinigami is preferred. A strong scumhunting meathod is not what I use good sir/ma'am. Not exactly at  least. I personally prefer WIFOM despite the poor taste it leaves in some peoples mouths. I like psychology to put it simply.

---

More RVS questions soon

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

I'm willing to bet that Shinigami_King is your scumbuddy (or one of the folks who hasn't yet posted), and a squidling is a little squid.  A proto-squid, if you will.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

did you notice the :P emoticon? he was funning, referencing last BM. I wanted my answer to be in a similarly light-hearted tone. the reason I didn't answer his question directly is quite frankly, this early in the game all someone can do is act on basic general principals, if he'd given me a more complicated situation I'd give a longer answer. Unless you're asking for me to provide a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire mafia game? i'd be willing to do this, but for my sanity, please name a hypothedical scumbuddy for me, and tell me which one of us is supposedly the role cop. I'm to lazy to bother writeing out a giant GRAND MASTER PLAN for every single possible combination, and anything that far-reaching would require customization to the specific situation.

First of all, light-hearted is not the same thing as nervous.

Second of all, "who will you use your intellect on in RVS" is not the same thing as "give me a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire game."  Don't blow things out of proportion.  You're being jumpy and overreactive over a question-dodge, and that's not good.

Third of all, does my answer to your RVS question do anything helpful for you?  You've said you're trying to learn how people will react to things.  What have you learned from me?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

I want to learn from my mistakes. What's wrong with trying to improve? It should be obvious that i'm focused on the current game.

It's not bad that you're trying to improve.  It's unusual that you say it's obvious you're focused on the current game, and that your focus entails learning how to play scum better.

But if it were obvious, then I wouldn't be asking you questions, would I.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:43:03 pm

Vector: here's your next hypothedical: it is 3-man LYLO, you're Serial Killer. there were 2 Night Kills last night. nobody has claimed yet. do you claim vig?

Uh, maybe?  It sort of depends on whether or not my kill went through or not, how many scum are left, what I know about the people playing, and so on.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

(Tiruin: kudos for flavor!)

Agreed, I love the story you're weaving here, was it created unique for this (and the previous) game?  It's really brilliant and obviously well thought out.

---

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Good morning, my young fellows and as-yet undiscovered fellowettes.  I will, for at least the first part of this game, not be using an IC voice, because I think it's necessary that you learn to think through the full import of folks' statements.  At the same time, I also promise that I will put your education above my own hubris, and play as clearly and transparently as possible.

And I think I'm going to love you as an IC.  I respect this attitude toward improving the quality of our play a lot.

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Vector:  I feel part of the problem I had pressing you last game was tied to you being gone most of the time and not wanting to cause you overmuch more work (I'm very familiar with the pressure school can exert); and truthfully I considered you to be a bit of a flight risk.  How would you advise dealing with these emotions in the future?

I think that usually depends on the player.  To be honest, it's appropriate to just ask, very blatantly and openly.  There's usually an honor among thieves in this game, an unwritten understanding that you won't say "I am having psychological problems" in order to get out of being pressured as scum when you're really doing just fine.  So, trust people until they give you a reason not to.

The other thing is that if I've remained in the game, then that means that I'm ready and willing to play.  If you'd tried to pressure me into doing a full reread, I would have eaten you alive (town OR scum).  If you'd just decided to ask me questions about my opinions on the proceedings, I would have been fine with it.  If a person isn't going to do at least that much, then they should be replaced, anyway.

So, I would say: assume that the other person isn't lying about their problems, but also that they can take care of themselves, and that they're in the game for a reason.  And then play, with the understanding that if you cross a line, you'll be warned and you can back off from it.  You need to work on developing your confidence.

Okay.  I guess that's pretty much what I thought after seeing that you were the scum; I was surprised but realized that I had dropped the ball by not pressing you on your reads and lack there of.  It was during the game though that I was considering that you would be more likely to stick around as town (a lower stress role) than as scum; and then went to build a read on you off that.  I'll try to work on my confidence more, as that seems to be the defining weakness I currently posses (I got argued into two miss-lynches in that game, one from when I was targeting scum, the other, future scum).

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:41:41 pm

Griffionday: lemmie give you another hypothedical. It is 6-man MYLO, early in the day. You are vig. someone just claimed vig, claimed your kill(s), and is leading a bandwagon against you. there are no hammers. do you claim?

If it's early in the day with no hammers, I'd say probably not.  A much more productive use of my time would be to press him on precisely what his reads on the people he "killed" where.  There will likely be discrepancies on who he seemed to be reading as most likely scum and who he nked (especially if I was successful in any of my targets), meaning I should draw town's attention to that rather than muddying things by counter-claiming.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 01:38:06 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Lenglon: So... 5 (out of 7) questions that pertain to how to play as mafia... Something on your mind?

Yeah, I was frustrated that last BM I wasn't able to use WIFOM properly. I want to try to get into people's heads and figure out where they'd jump when and why. as before I dont plan on sharing anything WIFOM based until i can form it into something solid... and hopefully more accurate than I was last time.

The problem with WIFOM is that you lose the information that might be there in a feedback-loop; WIFOM itself cannot by it's nature be used to your advantage, except to aid in distilling a reasonable amount of doubt so you don't tunnel people without any critical thought.  I think the goal you should be working toward is ignoring the WIFOM altogether (that is, the feedback) and figuring out what the actual signal you're getting is.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?

Haha, ok, um, presupposing I were scum, I'd try to act as much like I would as town as possible. Any differences would be scumtells. I might even flat refuse to open the scumchat, simply because if having the scumchat changed my gameplay then that would be a scumtell.

That's an unusually long and convoluted answer to a question that boils down to "How do you plan on being intelligent this game?"  You also seem to be obsessed with playing as town as apposed to hunting scum...

PPE:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

The reason I didn't answer his question directly is quite frankly, this early in the game all someone can do is act on basic general principals, if he'd given me a more complicated situation I'd give a longer answer.

It's spelt "hypothetical".  And you're still over-answering his question; not, as you seem to think, under-answering it.  You also missed that his actual question was based solely around RVS play, and you answered a question about play in general.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

Sorry for missing you two wonderful IC's

Two IC's... but only one has posted yet... I'm confused.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

But you do have stuff to hide as town.  Part of getting a read on people is seeing how they react to your statements, ideally you want to make statements that have obvious (to you) ways town should naturally react and different ways that scum should react naturally to.  By listing things up front you take away this critical ambiguity and hurt your hunting in the long run.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

A strong scumhunting meathod is not what I use good sir/ma'am. Not exactly at  least. I personally prefer WIFOM despite the poor taste it leaves in some peoples mouths. I like psychology to put it simply.

It's "Sir" if you must be formal.

I think you don't understand what WIFOM means.  It's not circumstantial evidence or even getting into other people's minds, it's when you attempt to do that but fail and fall into a loop.  Enjoying trying to get into peoples minds is fine and critical for the proper enjoyment of the game; however, that is a strong scum-hunting method, and what all other ways of finding scum boil down to.

---

ICs:
Can we get your definitions of WIFOM so we're all on the same page when discussing that term?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:12:39 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

Both of you get the same question. In the last BM, Deathsword utilised his IC voice in order to change our perspective of who was scum in multiple places. Was he in the wrong or the right. How so?

I haven't played that game, so I can't speak in full to that particular situation.  However, we agree when we sign up to be ICs that we're going to act in the best interest of the beginners.  In other words, we already state that it is our obligation not to be misleading about good play.  Taking an IC voice on top of that just muddies and confuses the situation.

Consider this, for example--if someone clarifies good play outside of their IC voice, then you as good as know that they're lying scum; either that, or they have to start intentionally muddying the line, and then what's the point of the IC voice?  This is not only bad for any IC who might be scum, but also really terrible for everyone who is learning to pick up on the wrong signals.

Therefore I'd say that Deathsword was in the wrong, chiefly because there should be no argument about someone's scumminess, or about the right way to play this game, which is passed off as objective fact.  I am certainly pretty good at Mafia, but I can't say that I know everything about it.  I have a way that works for me, and that's all.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

Not for questions.  If you want to play a psychological style, then play psychologically.  Hunt the scumteam and scare the crap out of them!  Do you honestly think you're going to make anyone worried about your line of questions if you're completely clear about how they're supposed to react, and that you're not interested in killing anyone, and that you're playing defensively from the get-go?

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

What do you consider to be the ideal form of scum hunting?  As in: what methods do you think will give you the clearest read on whether someone is scum or not?

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

A strong scumhunting meathod is not what I use good sir/ma'am. Not exactly at  least. I personally prefer WIFOM despite the poor taste it leaves in some peoples mouths. I like psychology to put it simply.

Quote from: From the OP

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

How exactly is this pro-town, and how will it help you get a clear read?

Also, I had trouble tracking down the original question because you didn't keep the link in the quote head, so please change that for next time.  It's important to know to whom you are responding, as well.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

After watching this thread with almost childlike impatience, when it actually starts I'm at church.  Of course.  :-\

Anyways, answer question time.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Griffinpup- who do you see as a formidable adversary? Why? (This is based off of RVS Q&A and pregame comments so there isn't much to go on.)

Well... I have to say Vector right now.  Not only is she a woman, (scary in its own right) she also is a VERY sneaky scum.  At least in the games i've read with her in it.
She, if she is scum, will be very difficult.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

I would prefer jailkeeper in Town for the increased versatility.  The ability to be a doctor, and block roles is pretty useful.  As mafia, godfather would be my pick.  (at least I think it's called godfather.  The one that makes you look town.)  I would like that because it lets you get cleared by the cop, which means you don't have to kill him as early.  LET HIM SPREAD HIS LIES!!! I WILL REIGN VICTORIOUS! This is kinda the attitude I have in that situation.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Griffons: What is the relationship between you two?

*Griffin, in my case, by the way.  While my name Griffin Pup implies that I would be younger then Griffion, if you compare join dates it shows that I actually joined first.  Not only that, but I average .065 posts a day. lol.  I joined almost last year, and have recently become active again.  Griffion Day also addressed this, and I agree with what he said.  I am quite eager. :)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

griffinpup:  GLEE! Another person who likes griffins!  What did you think when you noticed we have similar names?

I briefly considered changing my username for that express reason, hoping to avoid confusion.  I just couldn't bring myself to get rid of griffinpup though.  I've had it with me since I was eight. (*Sentimental Tears).  The first time I ever saw your username I hoped that you wouldn't be in my first Mafia game to avoid confusion.  We can see how that turned out :)
I do look forward to interacting with you in this game and later.  I'm assuming that since you like griffins, you are naturally more intelligent then the average person, so don't prove me wrong.   ;)

Ranger-Cado-  What's your point of view on first day lynches?  Do most first day lynches gain nothing?  What process do you go about finding someone to lynch?
Griffionday-  What are your qualms about lynching a lurker purely because he is a lurker?  Is that only OK when there's no one else particularly scummy?  Or do you lynch All Lurkers?
Lenglon-  You are scum, and you have two NK candidates in mind.  One is an active and good IC, who is currently starting to suspect you.  The other is already at your throat, but didn't manage to get you lynched the day before.  He also isn't very good at forming persuasive arguments, hence you not getting lynched.  Who do you NK?
Cheesecake-  If it was Lynch or Lose, and you and your scum partner were both still alive, what do you think about the option of claiming doctor?  Cop?
Demdemeh-  If you were a jail keeper would you generally try to block the mafia power roles, save your Team power roles, (making their roles worthless), or save normal Townies?  I realize this would always depend on the situation you are in at the moment, but I'd like your general thoughts on the matter.
Shinigami_King- What the most implicating scumtell there is?
Vector-  Given the fact that you won't be using IC voice, we can't trust any of your suggestions without thorough examination.  Would the whole purpose behind you not using IC voice be to make us think?
Captain Ford-  I'm running out of questions.  What questions do you prefer at this stage?  How reliable are the reads that you get from people at this point?

GAAAA!!! Six new posts! just a sec.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:27:04 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Okay.  I guess that's pretty much what I thought after seeing that you were the scum; I was surprised but realized that I had dropped the ball by not pressing you on your reads and lack there of.  It was during the game though that I was considering that you would be more likely to stick around as town (a lower stress role) than as scum; and then went to build a read on you off that.  I'll try to work on my confidence more, as that seems to be the defining weakness I currently posses (I got argued into two miss-lynches in that game, one from when I was targeting scum, the other, future scum).

Exactly.  If you were surprised, then what that means is that I was playing well; but if you were surprised and hadn't even pressed me, that also indicates some weakness on your part.

I'm going to reveal something, actually: I've spent so much time lying about doing things on purpose, as scum and as town (in the former case defensively, in the latter offensively), that people get the impression that everything I do is very carefully orchestrated and talented.  Not so.  I throw what I can at the wall and see what sticks, and nearly always say that the result was my intention.  Of course, I usually also find a way to use whatever I get, no matter what it is, so it's not exactly a bad habit.  Just, perhaps, an unusual one.

So, that said: don't assume someone's alignment must be something in particular just because they're tired and "they couldn't play their usual game."  If their usual game is of a certain quality, then often they can drop the quality a bit and still have enough technique to pull them through, even if they'd rather do something full of panache than something rough-and-ready.  I personally find playing both roles similarly intensive and stressful.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Can we get your definitions of WIFOM so we're all on the same page when discussing that term?

I like the definition in the OP, myself.  It's better than anything I can personally come up with.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Vector-  Given the fact that you won't be using IC voice, we can't trust any of your suggestions without thorough examination.  Would the whole purpose behind you not using IC voice be to make us think?

Well, yes, but please see the post I made to Shinigami_King's questions on the matter for more details =)  The gist of it is that I don't think IC voice even holds up under analysis.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:31:45 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:27:04 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Vector-  Given the fact that you won't be using IC voice, we can't trust any of your suggestions without thorough examination.  Would the whole purpose behind you not using IC voice be to make us think?

Well, yes, but please see the post I made to Shinigami_King's questions on the matter for more details =)  The gist of it is that I don't think IC voice even holds up under analysis.

Ya...  Posted that question before I saw your reply.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

Second of all, "who will you use your intellect on in RVS" is not the same thing as "give me a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire game."  Don't blow things out of proportion.  You're being jumpy and overreactive over a question-dodge, and that's not good.

I dont understand this part, could you please explain?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

Third of all, does my answer to your RVS question do anything helpful for you?  You've said you're trying to learn how people will react to things.  What have you learned from me?

I dont have enough evidence to be sure, but the response you gave me is at Tier 2 in WIFOM. you are reacting to your opponent's thoughts, but not assuming they are reacting to yours. for you, I would place the poison in the cup nearest me. but right now I dont have enough data to be sure.

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

It's not bad that you're trying to improve.  It's unusual that you say it's obvious you're focused on the current game, and that your focus entails learning how to play scum better.
But if it were obvious, then I wouldn't be asking you questions, would I.

You're misreading me, all the situations i've described are WIFOM based to some degree. I'm trying to get a baseline idea for how the people around me think. still, considering how unsuccessful it was last game, you're right, it's time for a new (old) tactic.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Lenglon-  You are scum, and you have two NK candidates in mind.  One is an active and good IC, who is currently starting to suspect you.  The other is already at your throat, but didn't manage to get you lynched the day before.  He also isn't very good at forming persuasive arguments, hence you not getting lynched.  Who do you NK?

NK the one that is only starting to suspect me, the other one has done all the damage they can do.

---

Vector: Why aren't you asking any RVS questions... at all? don't you want to get a read on the other players?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:12:39 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

Not for questions.  If you want to play a psychological style, then play psychologically.  Hunt the scumteam and scare the crap out of them!  Do you honestly think you're going to make anyone worried about your line of questions if you're completely clear about how they're supposed to react, and that you're not interested in killing anyone, and that you're playing defensively from the get-go?

isn't it the most defensive form of questioning to, as Deathsword did in the game mentioned, not ask questions?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:50:55 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

Second of all, "who will you use your intellect on in RVS" is not the same thing as "give me a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire game."  Don't blow things out of proportion.  You're being jumpy and overreactive over a question-dodge, and that's not good.

I dont understand this part, could you please explain?

You were asked:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?

You responded:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Haha, ok, um, presupposing I were scum, I'd try to act as much like I would as town as possible. Any differences would be scumtells. I might even flat refuse to open the scumchat, simply because if having the scumchat changed my gameplay then that would be a scumtell.

This doesn't answer the question he asked.  So when I pressed you on not answering his question, you write:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

the reason I didn't answer his question directly is quite frankly, this early in the game all someone can do is act on basic general principals, if he'd given me a more complicated situation I'd give a longer answer. Unless you're asking for me to provide a ranked target list and gameplan for the entire mafia game? i'd be willing to do this, but for my sanity, please name a hypothedical scumbuddy for me, and tell me which one of us is supposedly the role cop. I'm to lazy to bother writeing out a giant GRAND MASTER PLAN for every single possible combination, and anything that far-reaching would require customization to the specific situation.

I asked you to answer a simple question that pertained only to RVS; you could have listed any name and been done.  You replied by saying you weren't going to provide a "grand master plan" for every possible combination.  This is a clear overreaction to the question posed, and to the miniscule amount of pressure I put on you.

Hell, you could have just said "Whoops, I misread the question.  I'd use it on Griffionday."  Or you could have said "Yeah, I didn't know, so I didn't give him what he asked.  Is that okay?"  But instead you jumped a mile up into the air.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

Vector: Why aren't you asking any RVS questions... at all? don't you want to get a read on the other players?

. . .

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Lenglon, why aren't you answering his question?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Why aren't you focused on this BM?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

Third of all, does my answer to your RVS question do anything helpful for you?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

What have you learned from me?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:12:39 pm

Do you honestly think you're going to make anyone worried about your line of questions if you're completely clear about how they're supposed to react, and that you're not interested in killing anyone, and that you're playing defensively from the get-go?

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:12:39 pm

How exactly is this pro-town, and how will it help you get a clear read?

Nice try, scumbucket.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 03:58:14 pm

interesting dodge there, those arn't RVS questions, those are pressure questions. You arn't interested in getting a read on most players, you're interested in how the player with the most RVS votes on them reacts to being pressured, and you dont care about anyone else. I dont see you trying to get a read on the other people here, I see you poking at the first easy target.

so once again, I ask you:

Vector: Why dont you want to get a read on any of the other players? Where are the RVS questions?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:06:30 pm

RVS stands for "random voting stage."  In general, one doesn't want to be random.  When possible, one wants to be systematic, and luckily for me, I managed to find some people behaving in an unusual way.  So no, I'm not participating in voting randomly and asking about folks' favorite ice cream flavors and scumteams and who's scary and so on.  I'm playing for real, which is something one should do as soon as possible.

Furthermore, you assume that only observation that perturbs the system is valid.  The phrase "getting reads" comes from the idea of "reading."  There is stuff to read here.  I am reading it, and learning from it.  In fact, I have reads on every player that has posted thus far.

But more than that, sometimes one wants to sit back and observe players in their natural habitats.  You can get more data sometimes from scum that feel safe than scum that feel worried.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 04:11:05 pm

Well then, good for you. mind sharing what you've got then?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:12:40 pm

Oh, and another thing:

You're asking "why are you paying attention to me?  Why won't you pester more than me and Shinigami_King?"  That's scummy and deflective.

Now, I have a question for you.  Why did you react like that to my vote?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 04:11:05 pm

Well then, good for you. mind sharing what you've got then?

You should be able to figure out what I think from how I've been playing.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 04:17:07 pm

Back and holy this is an active day 1. First, forgotten RVS:

Demdemeh: How much experiance do you have playing mafia?

---

Answers to questions:

Shinigami: Prevalent may be an overstatement. Caution will be my greatest ally against you. You handled yourself well last game and i know that taking what you say at face value will not help me unless i know you are town. Your a cunning person so i have to watch what you say carefully, and fully.

Lenglon: I would not counter claim until about mid-day. Analiyzing what they say while everyone thinks its the only claim could help me build a case against them. I would inspect the player who took my side the most that night assuming he, the fake claimer, and i all survived.

Griff: I think i would target the player mister tunneler was after and see what happens. If no NK occurs, i have either saved my target, or stopped the NKer. (jailer blocks a player trying to NK right?) I would be suspicious of both of them. If all three of us survive the night and following day, I would target the tunneler and if no NK occured again, go after him. If an NK did happen, i would go after the tunneled player. This is all assuming that the NKs killed vanilla townies.

Griffon: Day 1 lynches have the highest probability of being a mis-lynch. They do provide information depending on their flip and their cases get a little more power if they had some points in them. Lynching either a very obvious scummy player or a lurker day 1 is usually the best option as it hurts the town the least. (unless its a town power role which just leads to facepalm and annoyance)

---

Questions/Banter:

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

I'm willing to bet that Shinigami_King is your scumbuddy (or one of the folks who hasn't yet posted) -snip-

This seems a little quick to judge. Considering the odds of that happening, (1 in 18 or 27(i hate probability) this seems quite out there. especially when you haven't questioned anyone except Lenglon himself. Why so quick to the trigger?

PPE- Okay, you have a point now for going after Lenglon so much, and why your not questioning others.

Lenglon: The dodge would be scummy if it weren't for the sheer fact that she's right. You have 6 questions from her that you obviously have read and not answered. If you answered them and then pointed out the dodge, your post would have some merit. Failing to do this just makes you look scummy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:22:31 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 04:17:07 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:48:52 pm

I'm willing to bet that Shinigami_King is your scumbuddy (or one of the folks who hasn't yet posted) -snip-

This seems a little quick to judge. Considering the odds of that happening, (1 in 18 or 27(i hate probability) this seems quite out there. especially when you haven't questioned anyone except Lenglon himself. Why so quick to the trigger?

Lenglon: The dodge would be scummy if it weren't for the sheer fact that she's right. You have 6 questions from her that you obviously have read and not answered. If you answered them and then pointed out the dodge, your post would have some merit. Failing to do this just makes you look scummy.

Folks may have missed some of this, but two of those questions were for Shinigami_King.  I have also been questioning him, and Lenglon has addressed a couple of my queries.

But Cado, here's my question to you: what is the purpose of your third vote on Lenglon?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 04:25:31 pm

again with dodging the question. how hard is it, really, to back up what you're saying? you said you had reads on everyone who had posted, and was gathering so much data you dont even need to ask any questions! Prove It.

why did i react like that to your vote? your vote was meaningless, I reacted to your questions. and you seem to think that it's odd for me to over-answer questions. i suggest you take a look at my posting history. my past posts should speak for themselves.

---

PPE:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 04:17:07 pm

Lenglon: The dodge would be scummy if it weren't for the sheer fact that she's right. You have 6 questions from her that you obviously have read and not answered. If you answered them and then pointed out the dodge, your post would have some merit. Failing to do this just makes you look scummy.

6 questions... what? ranger, those are reposts of old questions that I already answered. if a new one was slipped into the pack please point it out.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:33:06 pm

Oh, I see.  You're just naturally histrionic, jumpy, and nervous.  You weren't reacting to my vote!  Just my incredibly aggressive questions.

I'm not dodging your questions.  I'm trying to help you learn something here, rather than spoon-feeding you information.  But whatever.  Here you are, you silly person.

    RangerCado - third vote without any questions, slightly worried.  Neutral, lean-noob.
    Griffionday - probably town, but I'll press him later today or the beginning of D2.
    Lenglon - probably scum.
    Cheesecake - needs to post.
    griffinpup - town.
    Demdemeh - needs to post.
    Shinigami_King - Acting strange.  Either new town or scum, I think, lean scum.
    Captain Ford - needs to post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 04:41:29 pm

Lenglon:
You totally missed my questions to you here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258268#msg4258268), did you forget that I'm still voting for you?

To repeat myself:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Lenglon- You are now officially scum  :P Your intelligence is a great asset. Who will you use it in this RVS?

Haha, ok, um, presupposing I were scum, I'd try to act as much like I would as town as possible. Any differences would be scumtells. I might even flat refuse to open the scumchat, simply because if having the scumchat changed my gameplay then that would be a scumtell.

That's an unusually long and convoluted answer to a question that boils down to "How do you plan on being intelligent this game?"  You also seem to be obsessed with playing as town as apposed to hunting scum...

PPE:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm

The reason I didn't answer his question directly is quite frankly, this early in the game all someone can do is act on basic general principals, if he'd given me a more complicated situation I'd give a longer answer.

It's spelt "hypothetical".  And you're still over-answering his question; not, as you seem to think, under-answering it.  You also missed that his actual question was based solely around RVS play, and you answered a question about play in general.

---

griffionpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

I do look forward to interacting with you in this game and later.  I'm assuming that since you like griffins, you are naturally more intelligent then the average person, so don't prove me wrong.   ;)

I think we can agree to hold each other to higher standards to protect the name.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

What are your qualms about lynching a lurker purely because he is a lurker?  Is that only OK when there's no one else particularly scummy?  Or do you lynch All Lurkers?

First let's define lurking:

Quote from: From OP

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

I respond differently to active lurkers than people who haven't been around at all.  Active lurkers are trying to hide: if a lynch vote will break them and let me know why they're hiding I've little qualms voting them to death.  Note: this doesn't excuse a lack of scum hunting in the active players and as I like to use my vote for pressure I'll probably not end up actually doing this often, but it's a vote that makes sense to me.

People who haven't been around at all I treat a bit more like claimed vigs; I'd lynch them in LYLO but probably not elsewhere, especially as if they are scum, they may be gone from the game, resulting in no NK if they're the last remaining scum.

---

Ranger:
Look up the spelling difference between my and griffinpup's name before shortening his (at least I'm fairly sure he's a he) name as griffon please...

Also why is your vote labeled as "questions/banter" when it obviously is neither?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 04:52:07 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:33:06 pm

Oh, I see.  You're just naturally histrionic, jumpy, and nervous.  You weren't reacting to my vote!  Just my incredibly aggressive questions.

... I really don't get where you're coming from here, and that is not at all what I said. I said I over-answer questions regularly. and I'm not accusing you of being over-aggressive. What I am accusing you of is tunneling, and I find it very interesting that you only weighed in after griffion got the ball rolling for you. You did eventually get around to asking someone else a question, but only after I pointed out what you were doing. That seems either scummy because you dont want to distract people from a potential wagon, or just plain lazy. and clearly you arn't lazy.

---

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 04:41:29 pm

Lenglon:
You totally missed my questions to you here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258268#msg4258268), did you forget that I'm still voting for you?

those were repeats of what Vector had already asked. all you were accusing me of was over-answering a question. which once again, I do that all the time, whoop de doo.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 19, 2013, 04:56:08 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado -
• Griffionday -
• Lenglon(4) - Shinigami_King, Griffionday, Vector, RangerCado,
• Cheesecake -
• griffinpup -
• Demdemeh(1) - griffinpup
• Shinigami_King -
• Vector(1) - Lenglon
• Captain Ford -
• Not Voting(3) - Cheesecake, Captain Ford, Demdemeh

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

((Just remember that Italicized text = flavor, or eye candy everyone!))


"Alright, who set up this AI (Actual Intelligence). It's playing Easy. I am not winning right here by that common Four Move win just because I'm playing White."

The sounds of grating pieces become your background music as you see the white pieces stride nonchalantly into the field of battle--lifelike pieces they all are, you wonder if they're miniature replicas of everything they resemble in real like.

Well, except that the Bishop looks like a Holy Inquisitor armed to the teeth with torture weapons and other lethal items along with a sash holding shining cans or cylindrical objects. That doesn't really bode well for anyone it comes in contact with (not to mention the fanged mace it wields on both sides of the King and Queen). From the classic heavy armor of the Knight, to the padded armor of the peasant militia, or Pawns, none would seemingly stand a chance against these pieces. It was as if they were all structured in a societal-hierarchy manner rather than the usual 'piece beats piece' Chess style.

Poor Pawns. No wonder they were so many.

"Knight to F3!"
"Algebraic Notation detected. Configuring. Response notices a high level of superiority in the opposing commander. Reply: Pawn D(2^2)+1."
"Alright, fine. I thought that was the four moves thing you were doing. It was Queenside, ok? I mess up. _{Bloody AIs.} Pawn to D3..."

---

---

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

(Tiruin: kudos for flavor!)

Agreed, I love the story you're weaving here, was it created unique for this (and the previous) game?  It's really brilliant and obviously well thought out.

It came on a whim, actually :P Based partly on a fantasy world I'm making--however you people are unique, both in the roles you play and in your character definitions though.

As for the previous game and the relation to this, it is mostly based on the numerous spin offs on the normal plot line I've conceptualized from it--more of a 'what happens on the sidelines' idea which leads to major events unfolding. Devil in the little details and all that. But to try to explain better, my thought process focuses more on visualizing stories or text-ish things in a really (and by that I mean realistically to the ninth power) vivid way.

This also explains my aversion to many things gross or uncouth in writing. Eheh...because yeah. My mind works that way. All of this is just what I imagine, for the enjoyment for the readers and nothing more. Only offset is English =/= native language but meh. :))

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

After watching this thread with almost childlike impatience, when it actually starts I'm at church.  Of course.  :-\

Sorry, timezones. But I do appreciate the enthusiasm, really. ^-^

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

...Wow... how did i miss that... Ugh, this is what i get for staying up till midnight looking over legal documents.

Vector: Thought it was just you voting... oh, shinigami also did... and so did griff... Theres 4 on Lenglon. UNVOTE theres no point to having that many votes on him.

Lenglon: Requesting reads from a player when we're only 4 or so hours in isn't going to get you accurate information, Especially when a third of the players haven't even posted yet. Your even starting to do what Vectors doing. If your going to go after someone for not questioning others, then you should be questioning people.

---

Griff: What are your thoughts on Lenglon and Shinigami given your known information from the last BM to now? (specifically play styles) As for the questions/banter, i was trying to catagorize everything for myself. Doesn't have to be accurate as i was just trying to keep my answers out of my questions.

Shinigami: Since you have the most hands on experiance with Lenglon... i think, do you think his behaviour reflects that of last game, or does he seem to be acting differently? And whats your take on the Vector, Lenglon... situation for lack of a better term?

Griffinpup: Although being godfather would confuse the cop, acting scummy in play would still get his vote on you. A cop would only fully trust his results if the godfather was already dead, or if the result was: Target is Mafia. Godfather can only give you a bit of wiggle room, not a free pass.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 19, 2013, 05:05:04 pm

And as a note to all, because it seems my flavor is hinting it...

Quote from: Da Rules on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  
  • Tiruin,
  • Vote Tiruin,
  • Tir,
  • Vote Scumbag Tiruin,
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
  

> There are no hammers in a BM. The day always ends on a timer--use it wisely!

PPE: Ranger

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 05:08:34 pm

. . . You're trying to claim that I'm scummy because I was asleep and didn't post until Griffionday had already voted you?  Now you're just digging.

For curiosity's sake, why is it that you don't respond to my accusations unless they have a question attached?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 04:52:07 pm

You did eventually get around to asking someone else a question, but only after I pointed out what you were doing. That seems either scummy because you dont want to distract people from a potential wagon, or just plain lazy. and clearly you arn't lazy.

Hey, check the post times:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 03:12:39 pm

Do you honestly think you're going to make anyone worried about your line of questions if you're completely clear about how they're supposed to react, and that you're not interested in killing anyone, and that you're playing defensively from the get-go?

How exactly is this pro-town, and how will it help you get a clear read?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 03:33:33 pm

Vector: Why aren't you asking any RVS questions... at all? don't you want to get a read on the other players?

Would you look at that!  I had already asked someone else a question before your vote.

Furthermore, here's me forestalling a bandwagon:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:22:31 pm

But Cado, here's my question to you: what is the purpose of your third vote on Lenglon?

Shinigami_King, what do you think about Lenglon's reply to your question?  Why did you leave your vote on him in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258240#msg4258240) post?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

Your even starting to do what Vectors doing. If your going to go after someone for not questioning others, then you should be questioning people.

RangerCado, what is it exactly that I'm doing?  If I'm being scummy, then why aren't you voting me--and why did you vote for Lenglon if you agreed with his case, rather than mine?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:23:31 pm

Vector: You weren't asking many people questions which Lenglon himself is starting to do, which was his part of his case on you. Thats the only thing i agree with him on and, given your reasoning, its not scummy anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

why didn't I respond to accusations without a question attached? because it seems like a waste of time to bother.

---

Lenglon looks at the timestamps
...
oh.
well, there goes my grand theory, pffft.
Unvote
ok then.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

I would prefer jailkeeper in Town for the increased versatility.  The ability to be a doctor, and block roles is pretty useful.  As mafia, godfather would be my pick.  (at least I think it's called godfather.  The one that makes you look town.)  I would like that because it lets you get cleared by the cop, which means you don't have to kill him as early.  LET HIM SPREAD HIS LIES!!! I WILL REIGN VICTORIOUS! This is kinda the attitude I have in that situation.

I noticed here that you seem to have put a lot more thought into this from a mafia viewpoint, why is that?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 05:24:21 pm

Okay, good.  Thank you for the clarification.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 05:47:45 pm

Quick post as I need to get to school to work on a lab report:

---

Lenglon:
Repeats?  Really?

Yes, we both pointed out that you over thought an answer to a question that should have been simple.  My beef though is that you answered the wrong question altogether.

My first point I want you to address is based on a completely different reading of what Shinigami said:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Who will you use it in this RVS?

Vector seems to have read this as "Who will you use it on in this RVS?" while I read it as "How will you use it during this RVS".  You answered "You are scum; how will you play this game?".  Why did you broaden the question rather than just answer his question as it is?

You missed entirely my point that you were attempting to act town rather than scum hunt.

---

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

Griff: What are your thoughts on Lenglon and Shinigami given your known information from the last BM to now? (specifically play styles)

You seem to forget that I was not in the BM after the first night, and neither of them were playing at that time, so this is really my first time playing with them.  From what I saw both of them have potential to be strong players, Lenglon certainly seemed to be playing a better game than he is right now; however, I don't think he ever came under fire in the previous game so I don't know how he reacts to pressure.  Shinigami has made one post this game, and while he seems promising I can really give you a read on his play style.

---

Vector:
Re-reading your posts to answer Lenglon, and noticed I missed one of your points, my bad.

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 02:03:54 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Shinigami:
Press the hell out of the IC, as it's safe to assume the IC will press the scummy player.

No, it isn't.  The IC has a responsibility to teach you how to play, and that doesn't always mean leading by example and doing the dirty work.

So I shouldn't assume that the IC won't just forfeit the game to teach me a lesson?  I think you agree that the lesson wouldn't really be worth learning as it's "not everyone who you think is scum is scum." which I learned my first mislynch.

I stand by that as the first action I would take though, as the question specifically mentions that I don't have a read on the IC.  If the IC satisfies me I would then start on the scummy player to see if the tells were noob or scum; if I'm reasonably satisfied that they are noob tells and not obvious scum then I would try to get the IC lynched.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 06:03:42 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

Griffinpup: Although being godfather would confuse the cop, acting scummy in play would still get his vote on you. A cop would only fully trust his results if the godfather was already dead, or if the result was: Target is Mafia. Godfather can only give you a bit of wiggle room, not a free pass.

Um... OK?  I agree with you?  Of course you still have to play good.  That's a given.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

why didn't I respond to accusations without a question attached? because it seems like a waste of time to bother.

---

Lenglon looks at the timestamps
...
oh.
well, there goes my grand theory, pffft.
Unvote
ok then.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

I would prefer jailkeeper in Town for the increased versatility.  The ability to be a doctor, and block roles is pretty useful.  As mafia, godfather would be my pick.  (at least I think it's called godfather.  The one that makes you look town.)  I would like that because it lets you get cleared by the cop, which means you don't have to kill him as early.  LET HIM SPREAD HIS LIES!!! I WILL REIGN VICTORIOUS! This is kinda the attitude I have in that situation.

I noticed here that you seem to have put a lot more thought into this from a mafia viewpoint, why is that?

What more do you want me to say about a jail keeper?  HAH FOOLS, JUST TRY TO GET OUT OF YOUR BEDROOMS!  There.  It's even now.

On a more serious note, I spent what time was deemed necessary to explain my choices.  There's very little you can say about a jail keeper that I didn't say.  A mafia godfather, on the other hand, is slightly more in depth.

Also, you're one to talk.  As my fellow Griffion pointed out, you had 5 out of 7 of your questions be about mafia.  It seems like you're nervous not knowing to play mafia very well, and are subtly asking for advise.  How about it, scum?  Notice how I ended with a question.  Perhaps you'll be bothered.  :-)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

I apologize for not having posted earlier; I only just got home from an all-day shopping trip.

So here we go.

Quote from: Shinigami_King

You are scum and your scumbuddy is alive. Everyone is pointing their FOS at you. How do you get out of your sticky situation?

Throw him under the bus! But seriously, I look for possible scumtells from a townie; suspicious style questions, lurking, evasion, poor responses under pressure. Then I do what I can to sway town to vote for him. Why? Looking for advice, Shinigami?

Quote from: Lenglon

hypothedical number three. it is 5-man-LYLO. you're mafia A. townie B is voting for mafia C. Townie D is voting mafia C. Townie E is voting townie B. mafia C is voting townie B. there are no hammers. the case on mafia C is a strong one. the case on townie B is moderate, but not weak. do you bus mafia C or vote townie B?

Bus mafia C and nightkill Townie E. Now the case for B is much stronger.

Quote from: Griffionday

You were fairly quiet for the pre-game, and you've not been very active in the sub-forum (to the best of my knowledge).  What about the game interests you?  Do you think that playing as scum or town provides the more exciting challenge?

I won’t claim to have been very active on the forums as a whole, honestly. Mostly, on the DF Modding and the other forum games boards. When I first saw Mafia, I was intimidated, but I think that the social and investigative aspects interest me the most. I think that scum and town provide their own unique challenges, and they’re both equally exciting, but different. Scum has teamwork, but also has to deceive a large number of people into thinking that they’re normal. Townies don’t know enough, but have to find a way to establish unity in an environment of uncertainty.

Quote from: griffinpup

If you were a jail keeper would you generally try to block the mafia power roles, save your Team power roles, (making their roles worthless), or save normal Townies?  I realize this would always depend on the situation you are in at the moment, but I'd like your general thoughts on the matter.

Assuming I have enough knowledge to make an appropriate decision, I would think it most important to block Mafia power roles. Time is of the essence, and while it is risky to have townie power roles out in the open, their abilities may only be used so many times before the end of the game, and even one time can be the difference that helps find the last scum.

Quote from: RangerCado

How much experiance do you have playing mafia?

Practically none. I was in a MUD many years ago which had something similar set up, but very little actual social aspects went on as most people chose to randomly select people and get them lynched just to get to the rewards more quickly. So, we’d go through a bunch of games, but they were worthless as far as actual play goes.

---

Lenglon: Vector is pushing you pretty hard. Is there a good reason you can give for how evasive you've been with your answers?

Vector: You're going after Lenglon very aggressively. Can you articulate exactly what it is that has you so confident and suspicious about him?

RangerCado: You asked me how experienced I am at mafia. I have seen your name in a couple of games around here, at least as an onlooker or replacement. What kind of learning curve would you suggest that this game has?

Griffionday: I want to know your answers to the same questions you asked me.

Cheesecake: I've spoken up. Where are you?

griffinpup: What do you feel the relative values are of the following roles: Cop, Jailer, Doctor, Godfather? If you were allowed to choose which one you could be, which would you choose, and what would be your general strategy for using the powers?

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 07:29:51 pm

griffinpup: What do you feel the relative values are of the following roles: Cop, Jailer, Doctor, Godfather? If you were allowed to choose which one you could be, which would you choose, and what would be your general strategy for using the powers?
A jail keeper is better then a doctor, but a cops value depends on the situation, and isn't easily compared to either the doctor or the jail keeper.  A godfather is a mafia role, therefore also hard to compare with the others.  I do think that a mafia godfather is the most powerful role a GOOD mafia can have. My favorite town role is jail keeper.  The jail keeper, however, is very situation specific.  I couldn't tell you a strategy for playing jail keeper unless you gave me a situation.

I talk about it in this post too.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

I would prefer jailkeeper in Town for the increased versatility.  The ability to be a doctor, and block roles is pretty useful.  As mafia, godfather would be my pick.  (at least I think it's called godfather.  The one that makes you look town.)  I would like that because it lets you get cleared by the cop, which means you don't have to kill him as early.  LET HIM SPREAD HIS LIES!!! I WILL REIGN VICTORIOUS! This is kinda the attitude I have in that situation.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 07:31:23 pm

Everyone shut up?

Seriously?
SERIOUSLY?

---

I'm sorry but "seriously". Unvote, Vector You my dear, are getting on my nerves. That should answer this

Quote

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

and this

Quote

And whats your take on the Vector, Lenglon... situation for lack of a better term?

I'm a bit ticked "for lack of a better term". Vector. You haven't been asking around like the average bear. You are TUNNELING! Scum! You are throwing some mighty pester balls in all the wrong directions. I can't say anything spectacular for Lengon's case except that she is doing what is natural. I would react the same! This probably looks like an overreaction so I will clear up some of the fog covering your eyes that when you said early game (I think it was the post that you claimed you were not going to use your IC voice) that you had a habit of "acting scummy" that is a scumtell. Even if you aren't scum I would be happy to lynch you specifically due to your play style. I get bored easily and your continuous long posts saying the same thing over and over.. I can't think straight. I want to be able to think! The weight of your posts are lost on me because of your... YOU-ness. Seriously, I hate the term with a passion but, take a chill pill.

---

I forget who asked but I am terrible with formatting. So that is why there are not any dates or names on my quotes. What I tend to do is just use the quote feature and then copy/paste what I want to quote.

---

Griffionday- thank you, every time that typo showed up I cringed. It was supposed to be how not who. Sorry for the inconvenience everyone.

Demdemeh- Why the vote? :( Well whatever; no I'm not looking for advice though I think I will write that bus one down for later...

Cado- Lenglon as I can see so far is acting natural. Everyone here is human SURPRISE! Also, prevalent.. *cough* isn't, an understatement.

Vector- What were the questions that you asked? I missed them I guess... you know, in your long repetitive posts and whatnot. Also, Lenglon answered in more detail than was necessary. Woop-dee-doo~ We get more info that way and honestly, who cares? It was one of the first questions of the game written down just for fun and humor more than anything else and you are ranting on about it like it is some big thing. No. No it is really not. Also, how am I acting strange? I am confused.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7yNe1LNisjE/UR9nGaH0F0I/AAAAAAAAA3A/b79sF2P7qQU/s1600/confused+cat.jpg)

---

Now then- would the real scum buddies please stand up, please stand up, please stand up~

---

I will post a random question just for fun in the next post but I need to work on it first. Don't go too crazy with the posts wile I'm gone.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 07:41:13 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Vector: You're going after Lenglon very aggressively. Can you articulate exactly what it is that has you so confident and suspicious about him?

I'm not prepared to give a full case or anything like that, but I'll tell you a few things.

First of all, she answered a different question that that which was asked, so I voted her, acting more confident than I was in order to scare her a little.  Well, it worked!  She started acting very scared, with her only argument that she "always blows things out of proportion."  So I pressed her, and she went in for an OMGUS.  Her attempts to make cases on me fell apart and were logically inconsistent, and now that she no longer has a leg to stand on she's disappeared.  This is classically scummy behavior, but part of me worries that I'm just misreading someone --so I've been broadening my view a little bit.

Second of all, the best way to kick up activity and get reactions is to make a shitstorm in the right place (i.e. someone of whom you're suspicious, at a level which folks can still back down from once you've gotten what you need to know).  So I'm doing that.  Scum can hide behind fights like this sometimes, but I'm not going to let them do that.  Everyone is going to learn a lot about everyone else, and the rest of the game should be a lot easier.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 07:31:23 pm

I'm sorry but "seriously". Unvote, Vector You my dear, are getting on my nerves. That should answer this

Quote

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

and this

Quote

And whats your take on the Vector, Lenglon... situation for lack of a better term?

I'm a bit ticked "for lack of a better term". Vector. You haven't been asking around like the average bear. You are TUNNELING! Scum! You are throwing some mighty pester balls in all the wrong directions. I can't say anything spectacular for Lengon's case except that she is doing what is natural. I would react the same! This probably looks like an overreaction so I will clear up some of the fog covering your eyes that when you said early game (I think it was the post that you claimed you were not going to use your IC voice) that you had a habit of "acting scummy" that is a scumtell. Even if you aren't scum I would be happy to lynch you specifically due to your play style. I get bored easily and your continuous long posts saying the same thing over and over.. I can't think straight. I want to be able to think! The weight of your posts are lost on me because of your... YOU-ness. Seriously, I hate the term with a passion but, take a chill pill.

Recorded for posterity--Shinigami_King wants the IC lynched because she's annoying.

I said that I had a habit of acting scummy in other games, because it got better results, and that I would not be using those techniques here.  Please explain to me how that's relevant to this game.

Please also explain to me why you're certain of Lenglon's alignment.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 07:31:23 pm

I forget who asked but I am terrible with formatting. So that is why there are not any dates or names on my quotes. What I tend to do is just use the quote feature and then copy/paste what I want to quote.

That was me.  You may want to work on that.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 07:31:23 pm

Also, Lenglon answered in more detail than was necessary.  Woop-dee-doo~ We get more info that way and honestly, who cares? It was one of the first questions of the game written down just for fun and humor more than anything else and you are ranting on about it like it is some big thing. No. No it is really not.

Why are you defending her?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 07:45:16 pm

Missed this.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 05:47:45 pm

I think I may not have paid quite enough attention to the scenario to which you were responding.  What I'm trying to tell you is that assuming that ICs will do the work of grilling over the newbies for you is bad.  We can't catch everything or do a good job all the time.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 08:16:29 pm

unvote
Shinigami, your post made it clear that you were upset, and very unclear on the why.  I don't understand the actual complaint.  People asking about your opinion?  A townie wouldn't be distressed by that.  Or maybe the discussion between Vector and Lenglon.  I admit it was drawn out, built on both parties.  Yet you only defend one... Interesting.  You also complain about repetition, which both of them did, yet again, notice the pattern of only defending one person.  You pretend to offer an opinion, and in the same breath admit to not even reading all the posts, or at least paying attention to them.  And the way I saw it, the conversation was done, before you brought it back from the grave.  For someone who hates repetition, that behavior seems extra interesting...  Are you trying to shift the topic of conversation away from potentially dangerous territory?  Are you trying to defend your scum buddy?  Are you, Shinigami_King' seriously suggesting that we lynch someone that you openly admitted might not be scum, purely because you don't like their play style?  How is that in any way what townies are supposed to do, you scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

That question that I promised.. I don't know how long it is going to take me but it will come... eventually. Maybe it will be done by day two? I don't know. It's all mathy and it requires a ton of calculations.

---

Vector- yes I am defending her because I feel like it's kind of suffocating to be attacked like this. It violating the mind space. It doesn't feel right, especially for such minuscule errors. I'm pretty sure I said this already but I'll say it again anyway. I can't speak for Lenglon. Lenglon could verry well be one of the scum but wouldn't that be convenient for you? It is too early to really tell that she is scum and you are putting unfair pressure on her. Pressure others too. That way you will be able to make it so they stop hiding as this giant argument goes on. "Vote the IC for being annoying" HELL YES! If your hunt is getting in everyone else's way then you deserve to be voted out. I don't care if you are an IC or a town! You are just screwing around and not helping in a truly beneficial way. You are acting as if your single, itty bitty head is greater than all of ours put together. It is offensive and ticks me off. Speak to us as equals, smarten up! Then I will listen to what you say when you stop freaking T-U-N-N-E-L-I-N-G!

---

Vector- what do you think you are doing? Are you so bussy putting pressure on a random civilian that you forget about yourself. I asked you two questions.

• How have I been behaving in a strange manner?
• What were the said questions I missed.

---

Also a post note because I just saw your post griffin. I'll try to answer as eloquently as possible.
I thought I made it clear why I was upset though I was typing quickly (something that I don't normally do) so might have skipped something in my head. As I said in this post, the reason I am upset and the reason I am being one sided in this discussion is that I hate vectors play style. I already said that I can't think straight with this ongoing pressure. Period. Whether it is to me or someone else I feel it is an invasive attack that is unfair. Everyone also seems to be teaming up with vector so Lenglon needed some support. I also didn't drag it back from the grave. It never died. It was going to keep going for quite a while longer.

---

Sorry I'll continue this post later. I need to eat.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 08:30:44 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King[/quote

Lenglon could verry well be one of the scum but wouldn't that be convenient for you?

I may not be Vector, or qualified to speak for her, but being correct about who the scum is first thing would be more than just convenient, I should think... unless she is a scumbuddy, too. But, of course, in the metagame, is bussing on day one ever a successful strategy? WIFOM territory, methinks..

On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on, SK. Why is it so hard to think with this kind of pressure? That's what Mafia is, right? And the entire point of the RVS, from what little I've seen, is to apply pressure to people and see how they react. So, with that observation in play, can you, Shinigami_King, let us know why you choose to play a game which has the potential to disrupt your thinking so strongly? Or is it simply the "Bible of Scumhunting" style of play that Vector is using which upsets you? "If you're suspicious, push... if they move, push harder," right?

So what do you feel is the best strategy for scumhunting?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 08:40:13 pm

I'll quickly post where it ended for you, then read the whole thing over again, to see of I missed anything. 

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

why didn't I respond to accusations without a question attached? because it seems like a waste of time to bother.

---

Lenglon looks at the timestamps
...
oh.
well, there goes my grand theory, pffft.
Unvote
ok then.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Griffon(griffonpup): What would your preferred role be as Town? How about mafia?

I would prefer jailkeeper in Town for the increased versatility.  The ability to be a doctor, and block roles is pretty useful.  As mafia, godfather would be my pick.  (at least I think it's called godfather.  The one that makes you look town.)  I would like that because it lets you get cleared by the cop, which means you don't have to kill him as early.  LET HIM SPREAD HIS LIES!!! I WILL REIGN VICTORIOUS! This is kinda the attitude I have in that situation.

I noticed here that you seem to have put a lot more thought into this from a mafia viewpoint, why is that?

This post followed by ...

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 05:24:21 pm

Okay, good.  Thank you for the clarification.

I this is why I thought it was ended.  Regardless, thank you for explaining your point of view to me.  Your second post was far better written, and illuminating.

Back in a bit with answers.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 08:42:20 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

Frick, I missed this post.  I need to think some things over.

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 05:24:21 pm

Okay, good.  Thank you for the clarification.

This was in response to RangerCado.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 08:52:28 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

Vector- yes I am defending her because I feel like it's kind of suffocating to be attacked like this. It violating the mind space. It doesn't feel right, especially for such minuscule errors.

. . . See, I'm assuming that you guys are smart enough not to do obvious things like say "I'm scum" or something similar, so it will be the miniscule errors that get you.  What did you think a psychological game looked like?

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

Lenglon could verry well be one of the scum but wouldn't that be convenient for you?

Convenient how?

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

It is too early to really tell that she is scum and you are putting unfair pressure on her. Pressure others too.

*sigh*

I know you hate long posts, so I'll just refer you to the questions I've asked you, Griffionday, and RangerCado.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

If your hunt is getting in everyone else's way then you deserve to be voted out.

How am I getting in your way?  Or anyone else's?  If I'm obstructing your ability ask people questions, then yes, I should obviously be voted out.  But I'm not exactly sure how I'm silencing you in any substantive way.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

You are just screwing around and not helping in a truly beneficial way. You are acting as if your single, itty bitty head is greater than all of ours put together. It is offensive and ticks me off. Speak to us as equals, smarten up! Then I will listen to what you say when you stop freaking T-U-N-N-E-L-I-N-G!

When have I treated you with disrespect or "screwed around?"  Isn't tunneling the antithesis of screwing around?  You may not feel good, but I am not being intentionally disrespectful.

(I'm not saying I'm tunneling either, by the way.  Tunneling is when you attack someone at length against logic, and I have reasons for what I'm doing--reasons you may disagree with, but reasons)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

Are you so bussy putting pressure on a random civilian that you forget about yourself.

This isn't the military.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

• How have I been behaving in a strange manner?
• What were the said questions I missed.

I never said that you missed any questions.  What I said was this:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 04:22:31 pm

Folks may have missed some of this, but two of those questions were for Shinigami_King.  I have also been questioning him, and Lenglon has addressed a couple of my queries.

People had been accusing me of only focusing on Lenglon, which wasn't true; they'd also been accusing Lenglon of not answering my question, which wasn't true, either.  So I explained that some of the questions I'd asked in a long list were directed to you, and that all of those questions had been answered.


How you're acting unusually is that you asked a whole lot of questions about playing scum, saying that you wanted to learn how to better use WIFOM, and then you've been rather avidly defending Lenglon as though you know her alignment despite giving a lot of lipservice to enjoying a more psychological style.  Similarly, making cases full of holes, but I'm willing to bet that's because I'm pissing you off and you're relatively new to all this.

You aren't acting as oddly as Lenglon was, but you're still acting odd.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 09:02:30 pm

My mistake.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 09:08:08 pm

Cheesecake, have you woken up from hibernation yet?  If so, I want to know who looks most scummy to you.
Captain Ford, you too.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 09:25:23 pm

Simulation is taking forever...

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Griffionday: I want to know your answers to the same questions you asked me.

For me the draw of mafia is mostly the social aspect.  It's an interesting experience as you can't very well expect to win if you come into a game with notions of who must be scum (with the exception of wuba) but on the other hand you have to judge people.  I love the fight to determine who is scum and then to convince everyone else that you have a valid target.  On the other hand I could see being mafia being an interesting challenge, having to keep yourself invisible, while at the same time trying to manipulate other people into agreeing with you...  I could see that being equally as exciting as the hunt.

---

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 07:45:16 pm

-snip-

Valid

PPE:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 08:52:28 pm

I know you hate long posts, so I'll just refer you to the questions I've asked you, Griffionday, and RangerCado.

Uh... What questions to me? You pressed my comment on how ICs should be treated here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258177#msg4258177), but otherwise have only indicated that you'll get around to solidifying a read on me later.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 09:31:55 pm

Yup.  That's the point--I haven't been only pressing Lenglon and letting everyone else sit around on their butts, chewing the fat :I

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:38:15 pm

OK. I'm back but my thoughts were disturbed. Not by Vector this time but corn. I hate CORN!

---

Sorry Vector as far as being angry but here is a bit of logic. If you disrupt my thinking then I feel you should be silenced. (I do actually appreciate the simple post) I know from meta game that Lenglon is very good at finding weaknesses and simply scumhunting; this leads me to want you to be eliminated instead of lenglon. There is an equal chance of either of you being scum so there you go.

---

I'm bad at putting my thoughts down properly. This leads to holes and poor formatting. Sorry in advance for this.

---

Damn, lost my track of thought. Welp, I'll move onto this.
griffin- Don't pester them too much. They have no obligation to post over the weekend. Wait until we near the end of tomorrow.
Multiple others- people have been asking certain questions regarding me as a new player. I am. I stated straight away that this is my first RVS and I only played the last half of a game. So yes, I am quite new to mafia and the overwhelming pressure we are receiving here in RVS is catching me off guard. I simply didn't expect this.
Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that

Quote

On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on

. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 09:44:16 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 05:47:45 pm

Lenglon:
Repeats?  Really?

Yes, we both pointed out that you over thought an answer to a question that should have been simple.  My beef though is that you answered the wrong question altogether.

My first point I want you to address is based on a completely different reading of what Shinigami said:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Who will you use it in this RVS?

Vector seems to have read this as "Who will you use it on in this RVS?" while I read it as "How will you use it during this RVS".  You answered "You are scum; how will you play this game?".  Why did you broaden the question rather than just answer his question as it is?

You missed entirely my point that you were attempting to act town rather than scum hunt.

I broadened the question because the smaller version sorry, shinigami didn't make sense. I figured i'd avoid having to answer the same question over and over by just making it as general-form as possible. And you can see how well that worked out

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Lenglon: Vector is pushing you pretty hard. Is there a good reason you can give for how evasive you've been with your answers?

and now i'm being evasive apparently. how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

---

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 08:40:13 pm

I'll quickly post where it ended for you, then read the whole thing over again, to see of I missed anything. 

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

-snip-

This post followed by ...

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 05:24:21 pm

-snip-

If you'll take a look at the timestamps, those two posts were within seconds of each other. Vector wasn't responding to me there.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 06:03:42 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

Griffinpup: Although being godfather would confuse the cop, acting scummy in play would still get his vote on you. A cop would only fully trust his results if the godfather was already dead, or if the result was: Target is Mafia. Godfather can only give you a bit of wiggle room, not a free pass.

Um... OK?  I agree with you?  Of course you still have to play good.  That's a given.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 05:24:18 pm

-snip-

What more do you want me to say about a jail keeper?  HAH FOOLS, JUST TRY TO GET OUT OF YOUR BEDROOMS!  There.  It's even now.

On a more serious note, I spent what time was deemed necessary to explain my choices.  There's very little you can say about a jail keeper that I didn't say.  A mafia godfather, on the other hand, is slightly more in depth.

Also, you're one to talk.  As my fellow Griffion pointed out, you had 5 out of 7 of your questions be about mafia.  It seems like you're nervous not knowing to play mafia very well, and are subtly asking for advise.  How about it, scum?  Notice how I ended with a question.  Perhaps you'll be bothered.  :-)

Asking for gameplay advice the way you're accusing me of would be stupid. each of those questions were to see how people react to WIFOM inducing situations, a decent case could be made for going either way in each of them.

It still seems off to me that you didn't address how the jailkeeper's actions can occasionally backfire, or how jailkeeper can be used to confirm if someone has the role they're claiming. the godfather role is only useful if you're investigated by the cop, but the jailkeeper role has a lot more potental power. You really haven't put anywhere near as much thought into the town-side roles as the mafia-side ones. what is up with that?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:54:43 pm

This is a completely pointless post except to just have fun and see where peoples heads are at.

I was originally going to make a giant problem of this type but I got bored halfway through the first word.

The question is simple. What is the word hidden within the code. If you think you have it then please also explain how you decoded it and how the system works. Yes this is something that I legitimately did. I didn't copy someone else's formula.

85,198,419

There. Just one word and the logic is simple and strong. If you needed a break from this intense RVS then there you go. Something to stump your friends with as well.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 10:00:05 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:38:15 pm

Sorry Vector as far as being angry but here is a bit of logic. If you disrupt my thinking then I feel you should be silenced. (I do actually appreciate the simple post) I know from meta game that Lenglon is very good at finding weaknesses and simply scumhunting; this leads me to want you to be eliminated instead of lenglon. There is an equal chance of either of you being scum so there you go.

Look, why do you think I'm an IC?  Do you think I don't know what I'm doing?

Alternatively to saying "Well, percentage-wise it could go either way," you could work on scumhunting and trying to figure out what's going on.  I'm sorry if I'm disrupting your thinking, but I also know that

a. Going on and on about how big-headed I am and then saying "you disrupted my thinking, so you should die" is just slightly hypocritical and a bit sad.

b. There's other options than flying off the handle and falling to personal insults, like explaining what's bothering you and talking it out.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:54:43 pm

Oh, another math person.  No wonder I annoy you so much =)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm

You are experienced. So you are and IC. But you don't seem to thrilled being an IC seeing as you were hesitant to be one in the first place and you aren't even using your IC voice. What I'm trying to say is while you may be a strong player, it doesn't mean you are a strong IC and you can't just wave that title around. As far as the big headed thing goes, I personally am big headed. This however doesn't stop you from being big headed as well. People think differently so I guess a good way to say things here is you disrupt my thinking because you are sending a bunch of aggressive posts in succession which just throws me off my game. It may be your play style and you seem to want to throw people off their game as it is your style of scum hunting. This is not beneficial to the group however so I dislike your play style. I'm laying low on scum hunting right now because I don't want to pressure people on the weekend. I'll try to during the week but right now you seem very active and I have a problem with your style so I figure I might as well join in with this whole thing and see how much information we, myself and the group can get from who is active at this time. No matter what happens Lenglon myself and you will all have some nice records later.

Sorry for the wall of text. How is everyone doing on that problem so far?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 10:25:16 pm

*throws hands in air*

I'll deal with this later.  I've got other fish to fry.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 10:36:35 pm

Quick post as I'm still working on a lab report...

---

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 19, 2013, 09:31:55 pm

Yup.  That's the point--I haven't been only pressing Lenglon and letting everyone else sit around on their butts, chewing the fat :I

You missed my point:  You've softballed me once, which hardly is really pressing me. 

I wouldn't usually care, as you seem to be being systematic about how you approach your scumhunting.  But you're using having put pressure on me to answer a question, but I don't see where you've been doing that.

---

Shinigami:
About this being a lot of pressure for RVS; I personally left RVS pretty much after my first post, and I don't think Vector ever was in it; it's not nearly as long a phase as people make it out to be.  To me RVS is the one or two awkward posts before beginning to press who struck you as slightly odd; it is not, as some people seem to assume, the entire first day, nor even until everyone has posted.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:54:43 pm

-snip-

What... You want us to decode something off of what appears to be three terms, using a method you got bored of encoding half way through a word... Thank you but no.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 10:38:42 pm

Unvote
Note. This post response only to Lenglon.  I'll post the replies to the rest of you tomorrow, OK?  Time for sleeping and crap.

Come on Lenglon... Actually read the posts before yours before you post.  Have you read my answer the second time someone asked me about this topic?

 

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 07:29:51 pm

griffinpup: What do you feel the relative values are of the following roles: Cop, Jailer, Doctor, Godfather? If you were allowed to choose which one you could be, which would you choose, and what would be your general strategy for using the powers?
A jail keeper is better then a doctor, but a cops value depends on the situation, and isn't easily compared to either the doctor or the jail keeper.  A godfather is a mafia role, therefore also hard to compare with the others.  I do think that a mafia godfather is the most powerful role a GOOD mafia can have. My favorite town role is jail keeper.  The jail keeper, however, is very situation specific.  I couldn't tell you a strategy for playing jail keeper unless you gave me a situation.
[\quote]

The godfather role is easy to explain.  The jail keeper, on the other hand, is more on depth and I didn't find it necessary to explain the role as in depth as you apparently want.  if you would care to give me an example, I would love 'to analyze what the jailkeeper should do. 
A mafia doesn't have do do anything to use their godfather ability.  Therefore it is less involved and easier to explain.
I was already aware that Vectors post was not intended toward you, and don't need it said twice, thanks.
Next piece of data.  How does generalizing questions generally stop more?  Aren't those two values inversely proportional?  If you asked me how i would act in a specific scenario, and I said win the game, you would say something about avoiding or not answering questions, wouldn't you?  So what logic led you to conclude that generalizations are good?  Answering a different question then asked could also easily be seen as 'evading' a question. 
Finally, yes, asking for subtle advice on how to play mafia is stupid.  So is generalizing a question designed to be specific.  Since you've already messed up once, it's not unreasonable that you left another scum tell around.  ;D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 10:42:51 pm

Oops.  Messed up with my quote.  I'll just repost and fix it.

Unvote
Come on Lenglon... Actually read the posts before yours before you post.  Have you read my answer the second time someone asked me about this topic?

 

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 07:29:51 pm

griffinpup: What do you feel the relative values are of the following roles: Cop, Jailer, Doctor, Godfather? If you were allowed to choose which one you could be, which would you choose, and what would be your general strategy for using the powers?
A jail keeper is better then a doctor, but a cops value depends on the situation, and isn't easily compared to either the doctor or the jail keeper.  A godfather is a mafia role, therefore also hard to compare with the others.  I do think that a mafia godfather is the most powerful role a GOOD mafia can have. My favorite town role is jail keeper.  The jail keeper, however, is very situation specific.  I couldn't tell you a strategy for playing jail keeper unless you gave me a situation.

The godfather role is easy to explain.  The jail keeper, on the other hand, is more on depth and I didn't find it necessary to explain the role as in depth as you apparently want.  if you would care to give me an example, I would love 'to analyze what the jailkeeper should do. 
A mafia doesn't have do do anything to use their godfather ability.  Therefore it is less involved and easier to explain.
I was already aware that Vectors post was not intended toward you, and don't need it said twice, thanks.
Next piece of data.  How does generalizing questions generally stop more?  Aren't those two values inversely proportional?  If you asked me how i would act in a specific scenario, and I said win the game, you would say something about avoiding or not answering questions, wouldn't you?  So what logic led you to conclude that generalizations are good?  Answering a different question then asked could also easily be seen as 'evading' a question. 
Finally, yes, asking for subtle advice on how to play mafia is stupid.  So is generalizing a question designed to be specific.  Since you've already messed up once, it's not unreasonable that you left another scum tell around. :)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

So, Vector is gone so I feel like I am not obligated to have a conversation about everything else that has happened so far.
Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.
Griffion- Same goes to you I guess.
Lenglon- Now that you aren't getting attacked relentlessly I am curious to see a well put together defense for yourself as well as views of Vector and myself.

Anyone- If you have questions we still are on RVS seeing as the majority of players haven't put much out yet. I would like everyone to get to know my way of thinking so ask all you want.
Continuing to wonder if anyone has tried to work on my problem yet. Any questions if you are. If you need a hint GriffionDay then I'll leave one here

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The cypher is derived from a 26 number system AKA the alphabet and transferred into a 10 numbered system AKA the decimal system

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 10:49:59 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 10:36:35 pm

You missed my point:  You've softballed me once, which hardly is really pressing me. 

I wouldn't usually care, as you seem to be being systematic about how you approach your scumhunting.  But you're using having put pressure on me to answer a question, but I don't see where you've been doing that.

Okay, no--you're right, I didn't answer that question as specifically as I should have.  I was trying to answer the accusation that I was tunneling, but quoted that thing about pressure.  I have clearly not pressed anyone other than Lenglon, but I have not been exclusively focusing on her either.

Given how early in the day it is, I haven't had time to press more than one person, nor would it make any sense for me to do so.  So yeah.  You're right.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

So, Vector is gone so I feel like I am not obligated to have a conversation about everything else that has happened so far.

I'm not gone, but you've pissed me off to the point where I'll be waiting on answering that last post until I can do so calmly and coherently.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:58:05 pm

Quote

I'm not gone, but you've pissed me off to the point where I'll be waiting on answering that last post until I can do so calmly and coherently.

I'm not trying to actually be too pushy here but first I would like to say that you are probably feeling how I felt earlier. Ticked off. But That last post I made just before you "left" was a wall of text but I put it togeather calmly and I was giving you a lot of leeway to respond and defend yourself. I was trying to make a post that solidified my own points as well as a post that gave you the benefit of the doubt. So please at least answer why you are still ticked off when I'm trying to be fair.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 11:08:05 pm

I dunno, why are you ticked off when all I'm doing from my perspective is trying to teach you how to play?

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to defend against.  You've done a lot of insulting me, but in game terms you've brought nothing.  So I don't feel at all bad about waiting before I sit down and explain to you why you should pay attention to what I have to say and why I say it the way I do.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:10:54 pm

Pup: ok, you want a situation, how about the same RVS question I asked captain ford:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

since you claim to have put thought into the jailer role, why is fakeclaiming jailer a valid option in this situation?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:15:07 pm

To be frank, I have stated my reasons multiple time for being angry and I have stated why I am not scumhunting right now. I have been active. Just not in that department. In this period I think I would prefer to be asked something anyway like I said before. That will help people get to know me and the way I think. This will help me work with everyone as well.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 19, 2013, 11:17:40 pm

I didn't say you were inactive, I said that you're pissing me off.

I've asked you questions, but apparently your heart is set on an RVS question.  Ooookay.  Favorite scumbuddies and a list of the folks you'd fear most as scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm

I don't know what you mean by favorite scumbudies. I'll go with the meaning I think. My favorite scumbudies would probably be ford of Lenglon. Ford seems to have a lot of history and has not drawn any attention to himself so far. People also seem to get along with him and charisma is a good weapon as scum. Lenglon simply because she is smart and I value that as a major strength. Meta game has also allowed me to know her better so I don't know. Some people I am afraid of being scum would be Ford once again and GriffionDay. He seems to be smart and doesn't give a scummy vibe. A null vibe really. And That is good, he isn't too chummy but keeps to solid reasoning.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 12:14:36 am

This is why i check in every couple hours. So i don't have to go through two pages full of text walls everytime i post. Ugh.

Shinigami: Okay, quick check shows that you don't get along with Vector's style of play. The only thing anger does is make you more suspicious. (Vector less so as she's always angry at someone) If you want to be able to deal with Vector with a clear head, find some common ground. Butting heads does nothing.

Vector: Your treating shinigami the same way you did me in Magic Mafia day 1. Please keep a level head with him, for all our sakes.

Cheesecake: Get in here dude, before you have to read 9 pages of ranting.

Demdemeh: Once you get the basics down, the games fairly easy to understand. Playing well though, that comes down to how quickly you learn the how to play the 3+ sides of mafia.

---

Okay, i'm going to post questions in the morning when i'm more focused. (i've lost a lot of sleep over the weekend)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:15:07 pm

To be frank, I have stated my reasons multiple time for being angry and I have stated why I am not scumhunting right now. I have been active. Just not in that department. In this period I think I would prefer to be asked something anyway like I said before. That will help people get to know me and the way I think. This will help me work with everyone as well.

So what have you been doing if not scum-hunting?  Because that pretty much leaves active lurking...  You jump in and accuse Vector of messing up your game by tunneling someone, and tell her to stop because it's affecting your zen.  You then do... pretty much nothing related to the game except offer weak RVS type questions.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

So, Vector is gone so I feel like I am not obligated to have a conversation about everything else that has happened so far.

Really now... Two things.  One: this is a forum game and not a chat game, just because she's gone doesn't mean shes not still very much a part of the game and you still need to address the points she's making.  Two: "everything else that has happened so far" is another way of saying "the entire game" We're still missing a couple people but it's highly unlikely that both of the scum have been absent: you can afford to look through their replies to find something to prod people about.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.
Griffion- Same goes to you I guess.

"You guess"?  Do you actually care about the question, or are you just trying to poll the aerie (see what I did there?) to make your reads look townish with no effort?

Since you asked though:
Vector: Leaning Town; she's been pressing her reads and trying to identify scum; she's tunneled a bit, but as she pointed out this is very early D1.
Lenglon: Leaning Scum; it's a pet theory of mine that if someone starts playing scummy and then shapes up quickly they are probably scum getting yelled at in the scumchat.  Obviously this only applies to noobs, but Lenglon fits this model to well for me to dismiss him as a likely scum.
You: Leaning Scum; with the previous read in mind your actions appear to be buddying Lenglon and providing a smokescreen for him by attacking his primary critic without reason, and then lobbing him a couple softball questions to help him get back on track.  Even if I make the assumption that Lenglon isn't scum; I still see your attack on Vector as suspicious because you actively disrupted someone's scum hunt while accusing them of disrupting yours.  You admit to this being your first time through RVS and feel justified in accusing somone else of playing this part of the game wrong...

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

Anyone- If you have questions we still are on RVS seeing as the majority of players haven't put much out yet. I would like everyone to get to know my way of thinking so ask all you want.

*points to here* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4259078#msg4259078) RVS is a person by person thing and is not actually required to play the game properly.

And new favorite post:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm

Ford ... has not drawn any attention to himself so far.

Ford hasn't posted yet, so of course he's not drawn attention to himself.

---

Lenglon:
No I've not forgotten about you,

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:10:54 pm

Pup: ok, you want a situation, how about the same RVS question I asked captain ford:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

since you claim to have put thought into the jailer role, why is fakeclaiming jailer a valid option in this situation?

Same question right back at you.  Why would fakeclaiming a jailer be a valid option?  It seems like a stupid option to me; as that will lead to a counter claim or being locked away by the real jailer.

You seem to be avoiding noticing that you're being buddied (something appears VERY scum to me).  What is your read on Shinigami?  Are you two REALLY that bad of a scum team that we know both of you before the day even technically starts?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 12:30:23 am

Quote from: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 12:14:36 am

Vector: Your treating shinigami the same way you did me in Magic Mafia day 1. Please keep a level head with him, for all our sakes.

I'm doing my best, dude.  Just a bit upset because it looks like my style is outdated and I should have gotten someone more, I don't know, likable and by-the-book to play in my stead.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 12:37:29 am

Griff: If they are both scum, i will question probability or just laugh at Tiruin making last games top Townies Scum this game.

Vector: Your style works as long as your temper doesn't show in your posts. Its more a challenge to adjust to, rather than outdated. Your a likeable person once people get to know you so don't sell yourself short there. Just try to be your non-angry self and you become much easier to understand, and get along with.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:41:25 am

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 20, 2013, 12:30:23 am

Quote from: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 12:14:36 am

Vector: Your treating shinigami the same way you did me in Magic Mafia day 1. Please keep a level head with him, for all our sakes.

I'm doing my best, dude.  Just a bit upset because it looks like my style is outdated and I should have gotten someone more, I don't know, likable and by-the-book to play in my stead.

[buddying]
*Points to here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258268#msg4258268)*
I still completely agree with your philosophy on how you are going to go about this, and think that you'll be an invaluable IC.  Also I think Ford will make a nice balance to you to show two play styles; one that will get you lynched D1 and one that works and is often emulated.  Unless you can get Jim in here I can't think of an IC I'd rather have.

Your refusal to use IC voice is appreciated as I feel the IC voice is abused often; and I think the real reason scum won so many games.  You're treating us as simi-equals and that comes across to those of us who care about such things.  I'll not give you free pass like I did last game, but you still have all of my respect.

As for your temper?  Shini completely deserved it.
[/buddying] 

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 12:50:16 am

Vote standings:

• RangerCado -
• Griffionday -
• Lenglon(1) - Vector
• Cheesecake -
• griffinpup -
• Demdemeh(0) - 
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(1) - Shinigami_King
• Captain Ford -
• Not Voting(5) - Cheesecake, Captain Ford, RangerCado, Lenglon, griffinpup

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"Time Elapsed: Three minutes since last move."
"I'm just getting warmed up, just you wait darn you."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 01:57:15 am

Yeah, the reason why I say "outdated" was because controlled anger used to be town's best weapon.  Being scum was not so much about being clever as having a heart of ice.  Well, also about being clever.  But your number one skill was learning to keep calm when you had five votes on you and everyone jumping down your throat trying to get you to act scared, because more often than not if you could do that, then they'd all go away and pester someone else.

And your number one skill as town was learning to bare your teeth and, point by point, dismantle an argument completely.

*shrug*

---

Hey Shinigami, sit tight.  This is going to be a long post but I ~promise~ that it will be worthwhile, teehee!  Besides, you wrote most of it <3

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm

I don't know what you mean by favorite scumbudies. I'll go with the meaning I think. My favorite scumbudies would probably be ford of Lenglon. Ford seems to have a lot of history and has not drawn any attention to himself so far. People also seem to get along with him and charisma is a good weapon as scum. Lenglon simply because she is smart and I value that as a major strength. Meta game has also allowed me to know her better so I don't know. Some people I am afraid of being scum would be Ford once again and GriffionDay. He seems to be smart and doesn't give a scummy vibe. A null vibe really. And That is good, he isn't too chummy but keeps to solid reasoning.

Favorite scumbuddies means "who you'd most like to play scum with."  Thank you for the acceptable answer to my very boring question.  I hope we all learned something from this encounter.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm

But you don't seem to thrilled being an IC seeing as you were hesitant to be one in the first place and you aren't even using your IC voice.

I have a 15-page paper on a 2500-page Chinese novel due on the 22nd.  When I signed up for this, I also had a 10-page math research paper due on that Friday.  I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get it done, so I was hesitant to sign up.

I'm not using my IC voice because I have no interest in fucking over you and everyone else.  Newbies seemed to come out better-trained before we had people pretending that they were making unbiased statements in-game.  I'd like to experiment along with the new setup to see if this will work better.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm

What I'm trying to say is while you may be a strong player, it doesn't mean you are a strong IC and you can't just wave that title around. As far as the big headed thing goes, I personally am big headed. This however doesn't stop you from being big headed as well.

It's my job to tell you what to do, to the best of my knowledge.  It's your job to see if my advice is good and works for you.

You can say I'm a bad IC all you want, but unless you have some concrete complaints other than "Whaaaa, I don't like Vector, she's attacking my friend and she sucks!" or a specific replacement you want to call in, I suggest you sit down and shut up.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm

People think differently so I guess a good way to say things here is you disrupt my thinking because you are sending a bunch of aggressive posts in succession which just throws me off my game. It may be your play style and you seem to want to throw people off their game as it is your style of scum hunting. This is not beneficial to the group however so I dislike your play style.

If it catches scum, it's beneficial to the group.  It catches scum.  ==> It's beneficial to the group.  QED.

I keep on trying to find out what you want me to do differently, but all I'm hearing is that you don't like my play style, you don't like me, you wish I would post less, and you don't like that I'm asking people questions that have to do with things they've actually done in-game.

I see absolutely no reason to change any of these things.

Here is your first assignment in playing Mafia well, Shinigami_King!  If you can't convince the group of your point, then you might as well not have any information in the first place!  So here you go.  Convince a majority of players that I'm a terrible IC and ought to be replaced, or at the very least killed.  I'm obviously not going to change my position, so you have to talk everyone else into it.

Godspeed~

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm

I'll try to during the week but right now you seem very active and I have a problem with your style so I figure I might as well join in with this whole thing and see how much information we, myself and the group can get from who is active at this time.

If you're trying to get information, perhaps you should ask me why I'm behaving the way I am.  "What is the theory behind your method of scumhunting, O Great and Noble Vector?"

If you don't want to answer questions, then don't answer questions; just tell us you're taking the weekend off.  But none of this crap.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Cheesecake on May 20, 2013, 05:55:45 am

Gosh darnit. I... I don't know anymore. I leave for a few days and I have to read pages of long text.

Long text+short attention span+small phone screen=sad cheesecake.

Anyways, honestly I don't know who to vote for. All of the text! It burns my eyes. I'll vote later (if that's allowed) and I promise I'll play properly the next round and when I figure things out.

((Sorry for being such a bad player, I'll try to keep up next time.))

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

Quote from: Shinigami_King

Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that
Quote
On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on
. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

I wasn't specifically referring to you with this statement. Others have been far quieter, and have spoken little except with regards to you and Lenglon. You have at least been responding, and have been front and center with the discussion, so hiding isn't a scumtell that could be attributed to you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 07:48:38 am

Quick post to Cheesecake. You don't have to be on at all over the weekend.  You also don't have to vote immediately.  You haven't done anything wrong.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:09:41 am

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 07:48:38 am

Quick post to Cheesecake. You don't have to be on at all over the weekend.  You also don't have to vote immediately.  You haven't done anything wrong.

^ this. Because I took that in as you needing a replacement without saying so and then felt bad :<

But still, yep. I've actually extended the day because:
1. Finals >_<
2. You people and your timezones [blah blah blah complaints blah...]
3.

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 20, 2013, 05:55:45 am

Gosh darnit. I... I don't know anymore. I leave for a few days and I have to read pages of long text.

Long text+short attention span+small phone screen=sad cheesecake.

This.
4. People were excited... :/
5. Fun?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shakerag on May 20, 2013, 09:49:47 am

/popcorn

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

Lenglon:
No I've not forgotten about you,

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:10:54 pm

Pup: ok, you want a situation, how about the same RVS question I asked captain ford:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

since you claim to have put thought into the jailer role, why is fakeclaiming jailer a valid option in this situation?

Same question right back at you.  Why would fakeclaiming a jailer be a valid option?  It seems like a stupid option to me; as that will lead to a counter claim or being locked away by the real jailer.

the trick here is that the cop has already claimed a result from the night. odds on something as suspicious as a day1 cop claim would be confirmed by the jailer... by jailing him and seeing what he reports. since being jailed doesn't give you a notification, but having your cop investigate does, odds on if there is a jailer in the setup (only a 50-50 chance) he would use it on the cop, and if the cop reports a investigate result, you lynch him. so what you do is fakeclaim jailer, say you jailed the claimed cop, and that the cop is lying scum. easy lynch. when he flips town, you simply call him an idiot, and say that he probably panicked when he didn't get a result. make sure your most expendable mafiasco makes the claim because it's a really high-risk play. if there really was a jailer, and he counter-claims, then you have just successfully learned the identities of all the town power-roles, and you still have a chance to cause a mislynch by calling the cop and jailer combo the scumteam. after this your remaining mafiasco just needs a strong daygame and you'll be in the clear since you know who the power roles are and the jailer can't protect themselves.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

You seem to be avoiding noticing that you're being buddied (something appears VERY scum to me).  What is your read on Shinigami?  Are you two REALLY that bad of a scum team that we know both of you before the day even technically starts?

My read on shinigami is possible scum. He's buddying me pretty thouroughly, but it doesn't feel like scum buddying. It feels like he's looking out for me because of the shared situation we were in last game, and the fact that we ended up buddying each other in that game too, with good cause, but it's of course possible that he's scum trying to win allies for later on, or give himself an alibi assuming I get lynched. The reason I'm giving him benefit of doubt is I have trouble envisioning a scum IC that would let him keep it up for this long without telling him that what he's doing is going to get himself lynched.

---

Pup: You ignored my question, why?

Captain: Where are you? I dont want another Deathsword situation where we have a lurking IC scum win the match.

Dem:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that
Quote
On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on
. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

I wasn't specifically referring to you with this statement. Others have been far quieter, and have spoken little except with regards to you and Lenglon. You have at least been responding, and have been front and center with the discussion, so hiding isn't a scumtell that could be attributed to you.

If you find this suspicious, why arn't you pressuring those people? You're saying that unspecified people are acting scummy but not acting on it. that kind of psudo-activity is scummy in of itself. please, back up your statement here. who were you talking about in that quote?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

I have to do homework so this is going to be a really short post. Unvote Vector. I still find you suspicious but I feel that leaving my vote on you will get me nowhere. You aren't moving and when you mentioned I would have to get others to dislike you.. it isn't happening. Especially with buddy buddy GriffionDay over there. I'n fact.

---

GriffionDay- Trying to be friends with the IC eh? Well would you explain why? There is no reason truly to support her seeing as she isn't really that pressured here. It seems like you just want a future friend to give you a get out of jail card. I am going to agree with ranger here and say what are the chances of both Lenglon and myself were the last townies to both be scum. I can guarantee you that, that is not the case. That of course would require you to take my word for it but seriously. What are the chances. When I finish my homework I will make a nice beutifully long post about this seeing as that is what everyone wants. Until then Ciao~

---

PS. Vector, that latest long post was actually quite nice. It may be because I just woke up so I can focus, but I did like the formatting.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 11:53:13 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Dem:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Quote from: Lenglon

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that
Quote
On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on
. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

I wasn't specifically referring to you with this statement. Others have been far quieter, and have spoken little except with regards to you and Lenglon. You have at least been responding, and have been front and center with the discussion, so hiding isn't a scumtell that could be attributed to you.

If you find this suspicious, why arn't you pressuring those people? You're saying that unspecified people are acting scummy but not acting on it. that kind of psudo-activity is scummy in of itself. please, back up your statement here. who were you talking about in that quote?

[/quote]

Those people would be Captain Ford and RangerCado. They seem to have taken up the practice of active lurking, occasionally venturing a small post with little content, answering the little RVS questions and asking their own, before slipping out of the limelight. It seems to be mainly SK, you, Vector for the bulk of the first day discussion so far.

I will be courteous to SK for now, since I feel like we may have pushed him away from the game. I think he was being honest when he was discussing the emotional impact of Vector's approach to him, so I will move away from pushing him directly.

Captain Ford: You haven't said anything in a while. What are you thinking?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:11:30 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

GriffionDay- Trying to be friends with the IC eh? Well would you explain why? There is no reason truly to support her seeing as she isn't really that pressured here. It seems like you just want a future friend to give you a get out of jail card. I am going to agree with ranger here and say what are the chances of both Lenglon and myself were the last townies to both be scum. I can guarantee you that, that is not the case. That of course would require you to take my word for it but seriously. What are the chances. When I finish my homework I will make a nice beutifully long post about this seeing as that is what everyone wants. Until then Ciao~

Shinigami: Is that a confession?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 12:25:44 pm

Quote

Shinigami: Is that a confession?

No, it's not. If I was scum I would take a completely different tactic. I would probably be going after Dandemeh and Griffion. I also would not have endangered myself by jumping into the fray. I can see why you are voting me. You want to separate us so that we don't appear to be buddies. Alright, that is fair, but my play style is different and easily noticed. I may draw attention to myself but I don't behave like scum. Ask me anything specifically. i.e. my reasoning for doing (insert action here) and I will happily answer if it will clear my name and let be be on speaking terms with everyone.

Another short post void of content due to I'm still doing socials homework. I hate socials -___-

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 12:36:14 pm

Demdemeh I kept disappearing/Lurking because it was the weekend. People do stuff on the weekend. You can't accuse someone of active lurking during the weekend as it also counts as zero time. Also, Ford hasn't even posted yet, so how is he active-lurking or making small posts with little information?

Also, you stated people your suspicious of, Great! Now ask the one who has posted,ie me, some questions instead of the one whos been gone for the weekend.

---

Lenglon: Same as Demdemeh, its the weekend. No one is under any obligation to post during that time.

Shinigami: Although i agree that both you and Lenglon being scum together would be unlikely, one of you being scum is still a very real possibility. 22% is a pretty good chance for someone to be scum. (SS: Doesn't help when the teacher said day 1, this course is going to be boring)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 12:48:03 pm

Ranger- that is why I am saying people can ask me to clarify the logic behind my actions. It is quite a real possibility that Lenglon or myself could be mafia. I want people to try to see me more clearly so they can see I'm not scum. I'm surprised Lenglon isn't doing the same.

---

Still waiting for me to post something with content? That wont happen until around 6 PST. But I promise their will be a long beautiful post. In the meantime I just don't want to leave entirely and let claims at me come and go without having a chance to deflect them or at least respond. I'm going to try and be active today.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:54:48 pm

Shinigami: the reason I voted you was simple. that quote assumed that one of us was scum, and I know it's not me. It looked a lot like a slip to me, an accidental confession of being scum.

Ranger: check captain's local time and activities elsewhere. He's here and posting. I suppose it's reasonable to wait another 24 hours before getting irritated, but anything that buys him time to not post means he has fewer chances to make mistakes. The best way to hide is to not be active, and I dont want to give him the chance to do that. That happened my last BM and we lost as a result.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 01:04:35 pm

It wasn't a slip up. I was implying that onlookers can still see either of us as scum. I'm trying to clear my name by being as open as possible. If you say your not scum, do your best to prove it. And there is a relatively large chance that one of us is scum, compared to the chance of both of us being scum. Everyone else is still out there and I don't think the most active players are likely scum. That's why I am voting GriffionDay, because he has been active but has not drawn a ton of attention.

Also, Griffon and cheese cake. Both of you seem eager but where are you? Just curious  :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 02:40:27 pm

Back from my sister's graduation and holy - ... 80-something posts? That's like, 10 posts per player. Wow.

Also, posting from work, so I'm going to post these answers to RVS questions and read and reply to the rest of the thread as I'm able.

[Also, I'm your second IC, and these brackets (combined with italics) are my way of denoting IC speech. When I use my IC Voice, it means I'm trying to offer unbiased advice. I will not intentionally use my IC voice to deceive or manipulate you, but it is up to you to keep your eyes open and consider all the angles]

---

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Ford: Who of the non-IC players do you think would pose the biggest threat to town if they were scum?

Right now, I'd say Shinigami. Everyone believed he was town from the first few posts he made in BM XV when he subbed in. Then we found out he hadn't received his role PM yet -- rather sobering, that is.

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

I kill the cop, duh. If the jailer protects the cop, nobody dies, and aside from learning the game has a jailer, the town learns nothing new, while we get to inspect one person to try to find the jailer. It's a win for me no matter how you look at it.

I wouldn't fakeclaim jailer that early in the game.

---

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 01:28:05 pm

Ford:  You seemed to accept the changed role list without any fuss, so I'm assuming you think that it will re-balance the game toward town.  Can you comment on how the lack of an doctor will effect the game?

We won't see scum fakeclaiming doctor anymore. Jailer claims will probably be a lot more interesting than doctor ones.

Cops won't be even more discourages from claiming early in the hopes of gaining doctor protection anymore, since the protection of a jailer makes them useless.

There's an interesting interaction where a jailer blocks a cop, and one of them can verify the other's claim, depending on who claims first. That doesn't have anything to do with the lack of a doctor, though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:00:08 pm

Quote

Right now, I'd say Shinigami. Everyone believed he was town from the first few posts he made in BM XV when he subbed in. Then we found out he hadn't received his role PM yet -- rather sobering, that is.

I never addressed this because I didn't care much but now that it is here I must say that I knew that I was town. I just didn't know if I had a role. Ranger was scum so he was able to tell me IRL that I was not his scumbuddy. I just never bothered asking if I had a role. It didn't come to mind until the mass role claim.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 03:33:19 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:00:08 pm

Ranger was scum so he was able to tell me IRL that I was not his scumbuddy.

Um

I hope that Ranger had been lynched in the game at that point

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 03:38:35 pm

I was dead before he joined. He knew nothing other than i was mafia and he wasn't.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:43:29 pm

Indeed, you can check out the last BM if you want meta game information on Lenglon, Ranger or myself. Lenglon and I joined in D3 I'm pretty sure  (not positive there) and Ranger was in it from the get go.

Vector- seems that you are on right now so I'm interested if you would like to add anything other than your coment of that last game. Do you have any questions for me?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 03:51:21 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:43:29 pm

Vector- seems that you are on right now so I'm interested if you would like to add anything other than your coment of that last game. Do you have any questions for me?

No, I don't.  I'm waiting on Ford.


I'm leaving my vote on Lenglon because I'm still pretty sure that she's scum.  *shrug*  Sorru.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:57:29 pm

Demdemeh, Griffionday- you both have your votes on me and I have no way to protect myself if there is no substance to block. If you are voting for me, at least attack me. You both have just kind of will-o-the-wisped your way out of here. Fight me like a forum troll or something... I don't know... Anything?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 03:58:19 pm

Maybe you should have worked harder on not killing the scum-hunting energy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 04:04:02 pm

strange how all that energy came during the weekend, the usual quiet time of games.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 04:11:03 pm

Ranger- is that all you're going to comment on? Don't tell me you are scum AGAIN. What is you're take on this whole situation anyway? You seem to have a bad case of active lurking!

Vector- Sorry for the mood kill. That wasn't the intention, I promise you. Why exactly are you waiting for ford? You could be doing something else, you know, like scum hunt? Also regarding the Lenglon case. I'm pretty much done with it all. If she paints a target on herself now I can't go say we are at the very beginning of the game. That was my logic at first and then I stayed on the same side because I was backing someone up. You don't just leave them half way through, but if you still see Lenglon as scum then it will have to be Lenglon who persuades you differently.

---

Ranger- check your messages on either skype or steam. School stuff.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 04:14:14 pm

Ford is doing a reread, and I want to know what he has to say.  Making folks angry just to make them angry isn't worthwhile; it muddies the read.  So there's no point in picking a big fight with him over his not having reread yet.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 04:50:51 pm

Shinigami: So its active-lurking to be posting small things when the only things to comment on are on-going arguements that don't appear to be going anywhere? If you want my opinion then here:

The Vector + Lenglon situation: Vector is acting how she normally does while scum-hunting against Lenglon. Lenglon is acting nervously to this, possibly due to not being used to the amount of pressure on her or trying to find the Townie thing to say as Mafia. Leaning in favor of Vectors arguement here.

The Vector + Shinigami situation: Both have strained relations with eachother at the moment. Got off to a rough start with conflicting scum-hunting strategies. Each have cooled off a bit are are getting along better but still some stress remains that i can see. Null feelings here.

Can everyone please stop talking about lurking when the game started during the weekend? Seriously, no one was under any obligation to post during that time and i doubt anyone saw this amount of activity coming.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 05:02:29 pm

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 05:41:13 pm

My argument is that people can't be lurking until today. I was tired of people getting accused of lurking when tonight is the start of when they can be lurking.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 05:53:14 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 05:02:29 pm

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-

So you're accusing people of lurking that haven't posted in the last 12 hours?  This is my first post today, why haven't you been calling me a lurk?  Shinigami, people have lives, and you can't assume that none of the people 'lurking' don't have jobs or school from 9:00 to 5:00.  It's completely reasonable that they haven't been able to post yet, and they had no responsibility to post over the weekend.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

Lenglon:
No I've not forgotten about you,

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:10:54 pm

Pup: ok, you want a situation, how about the same RVS question I asked captain ford:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

since you claim to have put thought into the jailer role, why is fakeclaiming jailer a valid option in this situation?

Same question right back at you.  Why would fakeclaiming a jailer be a valid option?  It seems like a stupid option to me; as that will lead to a counter claim or being locked away by the real jailer.

the trick here is that the cop has already claimed a result from the night. odds on something as suspicious as a day1 cop claim would be confirmed by the jailer... by jailing him and seeing what he reports. since being jailed doesn't give you a notification, but having your cop investigate does, odds on if there is a jailer in the setup (only a 50-50 chance) he would use it on the cop, and if the cop reports a investigate result, you lynch him. so what you do is fakeclaim jailer, say you jailed the claimed cop, and that the cop is lying scum. easy lynch. when he flips town, you simply call him an idiot, and say that he probably panicked when he didn't get a result. make sure your most expendable mafiasco makes the claim because it's a really high-risk play. if there really was a jailer, and he counter-claims, then you have just successfully learned the identities of all the town power-roles, and you still have a chance to cause a mislynch by calling the cop and jailer combo the scumteam. after this your remaining mafiasco just needs a strong daygame and you'll be in the clear since you know who the power roles are and the jailer can't protect themselves.

First of all, the reason that I didn't respond to you was that I didn't have time.  I did jump in to tell Cheesecake that he didn't need to post over the weekend, but that was about all the time I had to do.  Secondly, to your question.  I'll start off telling what I would do.

I would not Fake-Claim a Jailer, because it is an intensely risky play for little or no added benefit.  In the optimum scenario, the person calls cop gets lynched, and he happens to not be the cop.  Unlikely, seeing how there was no counter-claim.  Also, if the real cop decided not to speak up, he would of examined him in the night and found him innocent. He then could claim cop day two after you fake-claim, and you get lynched.  The worst case scenario is town gets a free mafia lynch, and you probably get to know who the power roles are.  Not worth it, at all.  Your partner would have to avoid being lynched for two days, while avoiding inspections, to win.  Not impossible, but it is not worth trying this risky gambit.  If a Jail keeper counter claims your claim, you get lynched.  There is no convincing them that the cop and jail keeper are both mafia if the players are at all good.  If they lynched you, and you flipped jail keeper, they would have more then enough time to kill the mafia. This same reasoning would apply to a counter-claiming cop on day two.
I hope this answers your question.  Also, you claim to ask about jailkeeper, but the question is really about mafia, and how I would play one.  Why all these questions about mafia?  Is something on your mind?  The next time you want me to explain what I would do in a particular situation with a particular role, try to make up a situation where I have that role.  Note the question that you asked actually gave you next to no details about jailkeepers themselves and was merely an exercise of thought.  It was a bad question for your purpose and didn't answer your original query. 

Shinigami-  I'm going to scumhunt, and if you don't like it, well too bad.  It might mess up your 'state of being' or whatever, but I, for one, don't care as long as I find scum.  That's what you should be doing too.  What it looks like you're doing right now is waiting  for people to ask you questions, so you can answer them and avoid scumhunting.  You gave your reason for going light on scumhunting before is because it was the weekend. Well...

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 05:02:29 pm

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-

Get to work.

One for thing.  Don't write Griffon.  That is misspelling both my and Griffion Day's username.  Lenglon called me pup, which works, but specify.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:02:34 pm

Oh, one more thing Shinigami.  Don't ever say you'll lynch someone you don't think is town purely because of their playstyle unless it's in very exceptional circumstances.  It makes you look scummy beyond belief.  Other peoples post don't stop you from answering questions, and neither do they make you angry by themselves.  If you can't think if someone is posting walls of text, work on that.  Learn how to still be effective, regardless of the play around you.  Don't demand that other people fix their 'hostile' play.  Especially when no one else sees it that way.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 06:13:26 pm

Long post because of ranting at Shinigami; I apologize to those who aren't him in advance.

---

Shinigami:

I recently picked up a job in my mornings and then I have classes most of the day, I tend to be more active 6pm-1am PST; likewise I tend to be more active over the weekend as I have more free time.  Stop expecting people to follow your strict regiment of activity and calling them lurky when they've not been so.

Right then; on to Q&A time:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:57:29 pm

Demdemeh, Griffionday- you both have your votes on me and I have no way to protect myself if there is no substance to block. If you are voting for me, at least attack me. You both have just kind of will-o-the-wisped your way out of here.

Well you could start by addressing what I voted for you on: plenty of material here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4259222#msg4259222) for you to address about your play so far.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

GriffionDay- Trying to be friends with the IC eh? Well would you explain why? There is no reason truly to support her seeing as she isn't really that pressured here. It seems like you just want a future friend to give you a get out of jail card.

Why am I supporting her? Pretty much the same reason that you're attacking her: my opinion of how she's going about ICing; and a desire to let her know my opinion so she doesn't feel forced to change what she's doing because of some idiots.  Of the two of you, she's been doing far more good for town by actually scum-hunting, putting together her reads on people and advising those who came to learn from an experienced player.  You on the other hand have actively disrupted someone's play, and haven't done much since to aid town in getting reads.

Notes on where I see your actions as violating town etiquette:
1:  If someone is applying pressure on someone you don't see as scummy, think about why they are doing so.  Even if you can't see their case give them some time to develop it.  Maybe they saw hints of something that you missed and are applying pressure to see if they can get their target to display it again so they can show the rest of town.  On the other hand maybe they don't really have a case and are just applying pressure to look like they are doing something.  Again by waiting for a bit you can observe them and see if their case develops into something substantial, if it doesn't and they don't back off then they are probably either guilty of tunneling or are scum; in either case pressure is appropriate to get them to rethink their case a bit.
2:  This is something that I personally have major difficulties with but: Just because they have a different play-style than you, doesn't make their play-style wrong.  This is critical to remember, especially for us newer players; being different than we expect doesn't make them scum, being similar to what we consider to be scum makes them scum, and that is very hard to differentiate in the middle of the game.

On that note:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 03:57:29 pm

Fight me like a forum troll or something... I don't know... Anything?

I've already pointed to where you missed my case on you: as you completely missed them, this comes off as asking for a redo, it's not even deflecting, it's just that you can be bothered to answer my case on you.  Do so. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4259222#msg4259222)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

GriffionDay
-snip-

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 01:04:35 pm

That's why I am voting GriffionDay, because he has been active but has not drawn a ton of attention.

Your original post was decent by itself as you presented a simi-reasonable (if stupid, more on that in a bit), but by posting that second bit you wreck any pressure your vote could have had, showing that you really don't care where your vote is.  As town, your vote is a weapon as you can use it to levy pressure on people, as scum your vote is a liability as you will be judged on the strength of your case and if you're not able to defend it you will be outed.  Of course if you can show that "Oh that was just a pressure vote" you're safe, so a weak vote is a natural defense for scum.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

Especially with buddy buddy GriffionDay over there.

I'm honestly a bit disappointed. 

Part of my scum hunting technique is to engineer situations where scum and town would naturally act differently.  I leave outs in my arguments after a certain amount of pressure to bait scum into grabbing on to them, as town will typically ignore these and try to prove their innocence via explaining their actions as best they can.  Leaving these outs gives me additional information on the type of panic my target is doing: which I hope you can see would be useful. 

What you attacked was not one of these situations.  I made it clear in my post that I saw that the content of what I was saying was borderline buddying, but I felt that this was a rare instance where it would actually help strengthen town by keeping one of our strongest scum-hunters active and engaged rather than standing by and letting her be worn out by your frankly idiotic attack (see above for why it was idiotic).  My question is; are you ACTIVELY trying to weaken the strongest town members (which she has a 7/9 chance of being)?  Because if not; why are you so insistent that everyone play this game exactly as you wish them to, especially those with years more experience than you?

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:11:30 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

GriffionDay- Trying to be friends with the IC eh? Well would you explain why? There is no reason truly to support her seeing as she isn't really that pressured here. It seems like you just want a future friend to give you a get out of jail card. I am going to agree with ranger here and say what are the chances of both Lenglon and myself were the last townies to both be scum. I can guarantee you that, that is not the case. That of course would require you to take my word for it but seriously. What are the chances. When I finish my homework I will make a nice beutifully long post about this seeing as that is what everyone wants. Until then Ciao~

Shinigami: Is that a confession?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:54:48 pm

Shinigami: the reason I voted you was simple. that quote assumed that one of us was scum, and I know it's not me. It looked a lot like a slip to me, an accidental confession of being scum.

Desperate to distance yourself?  I ask because you explain your vote as based on Shinigami assuming one of you must be scum, but the section you quoted simply doesn't assume that at all.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:29:18 pm

Sad Face.  :-[  I missed your question, Shinigami.  Let me answer that real quick.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm

Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.

Lenglon:  Leaning scummy.  He's (She's?  Oh well.  I'll say he this post.  If I'm wrong, correct me so I get it right forever more.) questioned me repeatedly about the role of jailkeeper, but his questions seem like they're trying to find information about mafia, not what he's actually talking about.  I do think that he also made a mistake over-generalizing a question meant to be specific, but it's hard to tell if this is newb or scum play.  Short of his interaction with Vector, and limited interaction with you, (all of which he DIDN"T initiate), he hasn't pressed anyone yet.  I haven't really pressed anyone yet either, so I can't condemn him for this, but I do think my posts have been more pressing then his.  (Apart from his with Vector, of course.)  His posts directed at Vector did seem, if not completely UMGUS, along those lines.  He over-reacted, plain and simple.  His tendency to not address accusations in statement form, instead of question form, also worries me.  Why wouldn't he want to clear up those accusations?

Vector:I've looked at some examples of Vector playing, and I agree with what someone said.  This is kind of her normal playstyle.  I disagree with you in the fact that it hasn't disrupted my play.  Tunneling is also an attribute of someone overeager, not necessarily a scumtell.  All in all, I'm leaning a bit town on her currently.  She doesn't seem to have over-reacted much this game at all, merely pouncing on a mistake made by Lenglon, and not letting up.

Shinigami_King:  You my dear fellow, are a prickly pear.  You come into the thread, screaming like a banshee, but after you calmed down you seem to have started playing acceptably.  You are still feeling around, and asking questions to everyone.  You come off as impatient to me though, as I said previously, it's only the first actual day.  You seem to have buddied pretty heavily with Lenglon, who only tried to separate from you after being prodded.  I agree that it's statistically unlikely that you and Lenglon are scum, but it's also as statistically likely as any other matchup.  It therefore, would be illogical to base our beliefs on these statistics.  Overall, you rate pretty much Null at the moment.  Your buddying with Lenglon was scummy, but the rest of your play really hasn't. 

Note. This is written before GriffionDay's post is  read.  I may change my opinion on you,
shinigami, depending on his points, and your responses.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 06:41:55 pm

Bleh. I thought I was out of The Great Bastard when I signed up for this, so I am a little bit overwhelmed right now.

Still working my way through the thread, I'm at Reply #101 now. Once I get home this should get much faster.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

Both of you get the same question. In the last BM, Deathsword utilised his IC voice in order to change our perspective of who was scum in multiple places. Was he in the wrong or the right. How so? Vector, you answered before I could ask but Ford, how will you use your IC voice.

Counter-question: Did you learn something about deception from the way he manipulated you with his IC voice?

Simple Answer: I will use my IC voice to teach. That is what it's for, after all. Of course, only scum would have a need to manipulate you, so if I'm not scum, I won't have anything to gain by doing what he did.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 02:48:30 pm

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

Not bad advice, but by the same stroke, it can also give your target hints about how to defend themselves. There's another school of thought that says you ought to keep everything possible to yourself until asked for it.

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

---

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

ICs:
Can we get your definitions of WIFOM so we're all on the same page when discussing that term?

WIFOM = Wine In Front Of Me = Rampant Speculation

Speculative reasoning that has no value in scumhunting, primarily defined by its nature of being rapidly self-perpetuating as the theories are contradicted or built upon in rapid succession.

Although...actually, yeah, the definition from the OP is way better.

---

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Captain Ford-  I'm running out of questions.  What questions do you prefer at this stage?  How reliable are the reads that you get from people at this point?

I can sometimes identify a townie or two by this point. Although as evidenced by past games, I have a tendency to defend scum, (almost 100%) which blinds me to their alignment later in the game. Ugh.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 06:44:20 pm

That's okay.  I'll just use you as a litmus test >:D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:46:46 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 06:41:55 pm

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:46:46 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 06:41:55 pm

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   :D

... *points at the Mod*

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:50:12 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:46:46 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 06:41:55 pm

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   :D

... *points at the Mod*

I was referring to the first part of his quote, about not having enough activity.  You do have a good point there though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 07:10:09 pm

...Dem, i think you meant that for Ford...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(0) -
• Griffionday(1) - Shinigami_King
• Lenglon(1) - Vector
• Cheesecake(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) - 
• Shinigami_King(3) - Demdemeh, Griffionday, Lenglon
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(4) - Cheesecake, Captain Ford, RangerCado, griffinpup

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

---

---

Quote from: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:46:46 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 06:41:55 pm

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   :D

... *points at the Mod*

D:

;__; Meanies.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:33:51 pm

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 11:53:13 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Dem:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 20, 2013, 08:36:22 pm

Great post, griffinpup.


Fuck it.  Cheesecake, your reads, please.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:38:14 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

[/quote]
Wow... Your storytelling is really articulate.  I love it!!!

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:39:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

[/quote]
Wow... Your storytelling is really articulate.  I love it!!!

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:43:54 pm

Double post.  Sorry guys.   :-\

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 09:16:12 pm

Okay... I don't know where to start. I also only have 25 minutes so I wont be able to cover everything in this post sorry. I'll be back in about 2 hours then I will have about 40 minutes.

---

starting with these remarks.

Quote

I recently picked up a job in my mornings and then I have classes most of the day, I tend to be more active 6pm-1am PST; likewise I tend to be more active over the weekend as I have more free time.  Stop expecting people to follow your strict regiment of activity and calling them lurky when they've not been so.

Quote

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-
So you're accusing people of lurking that haven't posted in the last 12 hours?  This is my first post today, why haven't you been calling me a lurk?  Shinigami, people have lives, and you can't assume that none of the people 'lurking' don't have jobs or school from 9:00 to 5:00.  It's completely reasonable that they haven't been able to post yet, and they had no responsibility to post over the weekend.

I am only attacking those who posted over the weekend. It proved they were on the forum and because it was the weekend they had no obligation to post. To post a little bit is like someone saying "Hey, I'm here! I don't really care about what is going on but I will side with the leading team without adding anything. Welp, guess it's time to go now" That's why I have been calling out active lurking.

---

Quote

Shinigami-  I'm going to scumhunt, and if you don't like it, well too bad.  It might mess up your 'state of being' or whatever, but I, for one, don't care as long as I find scum.  That's what you should be doing too.  What it looks like you're doing right now is waiting  for people to ask you questions, so you can answer them and avoid scumhunting.  You gave your reason for going light on scumhunting before is because it was the weekend. Well...
Quote from: Shinigami_King on Today at 05:02:29 pm

Quote

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-

Get to work.

The later post of mine was more of a joke directed at Ranger just so ya know. I am also fine with scum hunting, don't be confused, it is just Vector's methods that threw me off my game. When I first retaliated to Vector, Lenglon was appropriately distressed from the pressure and I, who wasn't even part of the thing, was thrown off. I kind of figured that a method that causes so much caos would not be appreciated by the rest of the group. Obviously I was wrong.

---

Quote

Long post because of ranting at Shinigami; I apologize to those who aren't him in advance

I actually do appreciate it by the way.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #158 on: Today at 12:25:06 am »
Quote
Shinigami:
Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:15:07 pm
To be frank, I have stated my reasons multiple time for being angry and I have stated why I am not scumhunting right now. I have been active. Just not in that department. In this period I think I would prefer to be asked something anyway like I said before. That will help people get to know me and the way I think. This will help me work with everyone as well.
So what have you been doing if not scum-hunting?  Because that pretty much leaves active lurking...  You jump in and accuse Vector of messing up your game by tunneling someone, and tell her to stop because it's affecting your zen.  You then do... pretty much nothing related to the game except offer weak RVS type questions.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
So, Vector is gone so I feel like I am not obligated to have a conversation about everything else that has happened so far.
Really now... Two things.  One: this is a forum game and not a chat game, just because she's gone doesn't mean shes not still very much a part of the game and you still need to address the points she's making.  Two: "everything else that has happened so far" is another way of saying "the entire game" We're still missing a couple people but it's highly unlikely that both of the scum have been absent: you can afford to look through their replies to find something to prod people about.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.
Griffion- Same goes to you I guess.
"You guess"?  Do you actually care about the question, or are you just trying to poll the aerie (see what I did there?) to make your reads look townish with no effort?

Since you asked though:
Vector: Leaning Town; she's been pressing her reads and trying to identify scum; she's tunneled a bit, but as she pointed out this is very early D1.
Lenglon: Leaning Scum; it's a pet theory of mine that if someone starts playing scummy and then shapes up quickly they are probably scum getting yelled at in the scumchat.  Obviously this only applies to noobs, but Lenglon fits this model to well for me to dismiss him as a likely scum.
You: Leaning Scum; with the previous read in mind your actions appear to be buddying Lenglon and providing a smokescreen for him by attacking his primary critic without reason, and then lobbing him a couple softball questions to help him get back on track.  Even if I make the assumption that Lenglon isn't scum; I still see your attack on Vector as suspicious because you actively disrupted someone's scum hunt while accusing them of disrupting yours.  You admit to this being your first time through RVS and feel justified in accusing somone else of playing this part of the game wrong...

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
Anyone- If you have questions we still are on RVS seeing as the majority of players haven't put much out yet. I would like everyone to get to know my way of thinking so ask all you want.
*points to here* RVS is a person by person thing and is not actually required to play the game properly.

And new favorite post:
Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm
Ford ... has not drawn any attention to himself so far.
Ford hasn't posted yet, so of course he's not drawn attention to himself.

There ya go. First answer, week RVS questions are better than nothing. And by attacking Vector I was doing something that could help later in the game.
Second. I just finished having a nice long talk with her and we were both tired. The questions I then asked were in fact related, and were decent questions.
Third. Yes, I guess. I did care and still do. I add certain things like "Ciao" "eh" "ya" and "I guess" so that I appear human. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
Fourth. RVS is just something that I feel should be done. Random questions that might actually lead to something. I like the concept.
And that's all I'm going to address from that post. Moving on~

---

Quote

Shinigami: Okay, quick check shows that you don't get along with Vector's style of play. The only thing anger does is make you more suspicious. (Vector less so as she's always angry at someone) If you want to be able to deal with Vector with a clear head, find some common ground. Butting heads does nothing.

You know me IRL. I'm always upset and I never like people getting all high and mighty at me. To support that last point. Does anyone? Also, no I don't like Vector's style. A large reason I reacted the way I did other than the reasons I already mentioned is that I expected RVS to be a pretty calm section with a bunch of jokes. Not a punch to the gut in one post kind of thing.

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Yeah, the reason why I say "outdated" was because controlled anger used to be town's best weapon.  Being scum was not so much about being clever as having a heart of ice.  Well, also about being clever.  But your number one skill was learning to keep calm when you had five votes on you and everyone jumping down your throat trying to get you to act scared, because more often than not if you could do that, then they'd all go away and pester someone else.

And your number one skill as town was learning to bare your teeth and, point by point, dismantle an argument completely.

*shrug*


Hey Shinigami, sit tight.  This is going to be a long post but I ~promise~ that it will be worthwhile, teehee!  Besides, you wrote most of it <3

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm
I don't know what you mean by favorite scumbudies. I'll go with the meaning I think. My favorite scumbudies would probably be ford of Lenglon. Ford seems to have a lot of history and has not drawn any attention to himself so far. People also seem to get along with him and charisma is a good weapon as scum. Lenglon simply because she is smart and I value that as a major strength. Meta game has also allowed me to know her better so I don't know. Some people I am afraid of being scum would be Ford once again and GriffionDay. He seems to be smart and doesn't give a scummy vibe. A null vibe really. And That is good, he isn't too chummy but keeps to solid reasoning.

Favorite scumbuddies means "who you'd most like to play scum with."  Thank you for the acceptable answer to my very boring question.  I hope we all learned something from this encounter.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
But you don't seem to thrilled being an IC seeing as you were hesitant to be one in the first place and you aren't even using your IC voice.

I have a 15-page paper on a 2500-page Chinese novel due on the 22nd.  When I signed up for this, I also had a 10-page math research paper due on that Friday.  I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get it done, so I was hesitant to sign up.

I'm not using my IC voice because I have no interest in fucking over you and everyone else.  Newbies seemed to come out better-trained before we had people pretending that they were making unbiased statements in-game.  I'd like to experiment along with the new setup to see if this will work better.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
What I'm trying to say is while you may be a strong player, it doesn't mean you are a strong IC and you can't just wave that title around. As far as the big headed thing goes, I personally am big headed. This however doesn't stop you from being big headed as well.

It's my job to tell you what to do, to the best of my knowledge.  It's your job to see if my advice is good and works for you.

You can say I'm a bad IC all you want, but unless you have some concrete complaints other than "Whaaaa, I don't like Vector, she's attacking my friend and she sucks!" or a specific replacement you want to call in, I suggest you sit down and shut up.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
People think differently so I guess a good way to say things here is you disrupt my thinking because you are sending a bunch of aggressive posts in succession which just throws me off my game. It may be your play style and you seem to want to throw people off their game as it is your style of scum hunting. This is not beneficial to the group however so I dislike your play style.

If it catches scum, it's beneficial to the group.  It catches scum.  ==> It's beneficial to the group.  QED.

I keep on trying to find out what you want me to do differently, but all I'm hearing is that you don't like my play style, you don't like me, you wish I would post less, and you don't like that I'm asking people questions that have to do with things they've actually done in-game.

I see absolutely no reason to change any of these things.

Here is your first assignment in playing Mafia well, Shinigami_King!  If you can't convince the group of your point, then you might as well not have any information in the first place!  So here you go.  Convince a majority of players that I'm a terrible IC and ought to be replaced, or at the very least killed.  I'm obviously not going to change my position, so you have to talk everyone else into it.

Godspeed~


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
I'll try to during the week but right now you seem very active and I have a problem with your style so I figure I might as well join in with this whole thing and see how much information we, myself and the group can get from who is active at this time.

If you're trying to get information, perhaps you should ask me why I'm behaving the way I am.  "What is the theory behind your method of scumhunting, O Great and Noble Vector?"

If you don't want to answer questions, then don't answer questions; just tell us you're taking the weekend off.  But none of this crap.

I still like this post even at the end of the day. Hm, good to know.

---

Well, that's my 25 minutes. I think I went far enough back in the thread to please some. Sorry I didn't instigate any scum hunting but I simply didn't have time. You know, with all of the everyone and their mother attacking me. I promise I will be back with some scum hunting in about 2 hours. Hope this clears some things up. (I just realized that I didn't address any of the comments on page 14. Oops. I'll do that next time as well.)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 09:52:37 pm

General note:
Most of you probably already know but; our GM is in a different time zone than most of us: check the link in her post to determine when day ends for you.  For those who are in PST with me; the day ends 6 AM Thursday.  We've a fair bit of time and can always extend, this is just a heads up.

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:38:14 pm

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   :D

I just made a fairly long post that included discussing how I view and react to buddying... And you buddy me to see how I react.  I LOVE your sense of style.  My only issue with what I think you're doing is that it would probably be better to have waited a post or two so I'd have more likely not to notice your ploy.

Just to note in case I'm wrong about what you're doing here: I'm assuming your post means you're rooting for me.  That's okay, (probably best to keep it in your head in case you are seen as buddying) but just because you are picking sides doesn't mean you shouldn't be hypercritical of both our cases.  I feel this misjudgment (more than an inherent imbalance in the team powers) is what cost the game to scum IC so often in the past.

But I seriously doubt you needed to be told that.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 09:16:12 pm

-snip-

I don't have time for a full response right now; I'm very sorry. 

I'll get back to you after dance, which will be over in around 3:30 hrs...  In the meantime please respond to my latest post if you get the chance.  And I promise I'll get you at least one more full post before I turn in for the night.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 10:54:34 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 09:52:37 pm

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:38:14 pm

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   :D

I just made a fairly long post that included discussing how I view and react to buddying... And you buddy me to see how I react.  I LOVE your sense of style.  My only issue with what I think you're doing is that it would probably be better to have waited a post or two so I'd have more likely not to notice your ploy.

Just to note in case I'm wrong about what you're doing here: I'm assuming your post means you're rooting for me.  That's okay, (probably best to keep it in your head in case you are seen as buddying) but just because you are picking sides doesn't mean you shouldn't be hypercritical of both our cases.  I feel this misjudgment (more than an inherent imbalance in the team powers) is what cost the game to scum IC so often in the past.

But I seriously doubt you needed to be told that.

Wait a post or two?  I waited almost a whole page!  I also couldn't pass up the opportunity that Tiruin's post gave.  Not only could I comment on his great writing, I could buddy up to you using his own writing.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

I could make a joke about your name and imply that Shinigami, who you happened to be butting heads with, was of lower value then you.  Pawn < Rook.  Regardless, I thought that you were too vain to see my ploy.  That was my first read.  I did learn valuable things in this encounter though.  You saw this one, but you won't see my next one!

Guys, for your FYI, this will be my last post tonight.  I'm looking forward to reading your guys' responses to the myriad questions hanging around unanswered.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:03:25 pm

Finally finished my reread. Interesting stuff. This is easily one of the strongest starts I've seen in a BM.

---

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

Preferably hard evidence, and for that, there's nothing like a roleflip. A particularly strong or persuasive post can change my mind too. Borno did an excellent job at the end of the last BM presenting his case, although at that point I was still undecided.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Having trouble forming an opinion on your own, Demdemeh?

This is a pretty slanted question, designed to cast suspicion onto either Vector or Lenglon. It's even scummier when used on one's self, but in this case it looks like you're just trying to play the situation up.

---

Notes/Reads:
Shinigami is offended because Vector is being unfair, and taking risks to defend someone? Town. Incidentally, from my own experience, this exponentially increases the odds of Lenglon being scum.
Pupgriff raised a strong case on Demdemeh and pulled together some stuff I missed. Is definitely paying attention to small details.
Daygriff ... sounds like Daygriff. Need to spend more time staring blankly at his posts.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 09:38:15 pm

OK. I'm back but my thoughts were disturbed. Not by Vector this time but corn. I hate CORN!

I LOVE CORN!

I hate corn syrup. But I love corn by itself. Yum.

And this is where I hit the post button...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 11:07:44 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 05:53:14 pm

I hope this answers your question.  Also, you claim to ask about jailkeeper, but the question is really about mafia, and how I would play one.  Why all these questions about mafia?  Is something on your mind?  The next time you want me to explain what I would do in a particular situation with a particular role, try to make up a situation where I have that role.  Note the question that you asked actually gave you next to no details about jailkeepers themselves and was merely an exercise of thought.  It was a bad question for your purpose and didn't answer your original query.

Actually I was mostly trying to point out that Jailer can be used to confirm cop claims, which is something you had never mentioned. I do admit it was a bad question though, and as proven by captain ford's answer one that didn't even serve my original purpose of figuring out where someone would jump in WIFOM apparently. I guess I should have put more thought into the thing. oh, and the whole "is something on your mind?" ?question? vector already asked that, stop wasting space.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 06:13:26 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:11:30 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 11:45:12 am

GriffionDay- Trying to be friends with the IC eh? Well would you explain why? There is no reason truly to support her seeing as she isn't really that pressured here. It seems like you just want a future friend to give you a get out of jail card. I am going to agree with ranger here and say what are the chances of both Lenglon and myself were the last townies to both be scum. I can guarantee you that, that is not the case. That of course would require you to take my word for it but seriously. What are the chances. When I finish my homework I will make a nice beutifully long post about this seeing as that is what everyone wants. Until then Ciao~

Shinigami: Is that a confession?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 12:54:48 pm

Shinigami: the reason I voted you was simple. that quote assumed that one of us was scum, and I know it's not me. It looked a lot like a slip to me, an accidental confession of being scum.

Desperate to distance yourself?  I ask because you explain your vote as based on Shinigami assuming one of you must be scum, but the section you quoted simply doesn't assume that at all.

the way Shinigami used "Both" assumed that one of us was scum, that was the entire basis for my vote, and i'd been hoping to see some kind of pressure reaction... which didn't happen.
Unvote
today is going so well for me apparently.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 06:29:18 pm

Lenglon:  Leaning scummy.  He's (She's?  Oh well.  I'll say he this post.  If I'm wrong, correct me so I get it right forever more.) questioned me repeatedly about the role of jailkeeper, but his questions seem like they're trying to find information about mafia, not what he's actually talking about.  I do think that he also made a mistake over-generalizing a question meant to be specific, but it's hard to tell if this is newb or scum play.  Short of his interaction with Vector, and limited interaction with you, (all of which he DIDN"T initiate), he hasn't pressed anyone yet.  I haven't really pressed anyone yet either, so I can't condemn him for this, but I do think my posts have been more pressing then his.  (Apart from his with Vector, of course.)  His posts directed at Vector did seem, if not completely UMGUS, along those lines.  He over-reacted, plain and simple.  His tendency to not address accusations in statement form, instead of question form, also worries me.  Why wouldn't he want to clear up those accusations?

she, but I try not to be picky
why dont I want to clear those up? because you're quite simply asking me to come begging to you and plead for you to improve your read of me. Get over yourself. I have other things to do, and what time I spend here I want to spend scumhunting, not boosting your ego to try to improve your read.

---

...
lets see, I could point out cheesecake's lack of activity... which vector is already doing.
I could bug demdem again... which is currently pup's project.
Captain Ford is still reading...
I haven't seen anyone pressure Day very much yet, but...
oh what the hell.
Day:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 09:25:23 pm

For me the draw of mafia is mostly the social aspect.  It's an interesting experience as you can't very well expect to win if you come into a game with notions of who must be scum (with the exception of wuba) but on the other hand you have to judge people.  I love the fight to determine who is scum and then to convince everyone else that you have a valid target.  On the other hand I could see being mafia being an interesting challenge, having to keep yourself invisible, while at the same time trying to manipulate other people into agreeing with you...  I could see that being equally as exciting as the hunt.

You dont seem all that excited so far, getting bored?

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

-snip, this part is addressed to shinigami. link is intact if you want to check-
You: Leaning Scum; with the previous read in mind your actions appear to be buddying Lenglon and providing a smokescreen for him by attacking his primary critic without reason, and then lobbing him a couple softball questions to help him get back on track.  Even if I make the assumption that Lenglon isn't scum; I still see your attack on Vector as suspicious because you actively disrupted someone's scum hunt while accusing them of disrupting yours.  You admit to this being your first time through RVS and feel justified in accusing somone else of playing this part of the game wrong...

You are accusing Shinigami of playing to prejudices and acting like he doesn't know what he's doing, right after acknowledging that he really doesn't know what he's doing. and you're acting like it's a scumtell. you know better than that. please explain this.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:23:54 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

How was the graduation?

Oh yeah, I see this was misaddressed to Ranger after all.

It went better than expected. I got some new clothes out of the deal (but no new socks. Man I really need socks. And light bulbs). It was nice to see my family all together again.

Also, mixing this question in with the rest of your questions makes it really feel like buddying. (Usually I put things like these in spoilers with a label like "OOC" or "Off-Topic" to minimize their impact on the game). In the very least, it's a great way to reduce pressure on yourself. Are you worried about how I perceive you, mister Dem?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Tiruin- vote count, would you kindly?

---

Here is where I will answer any points you made in your last post Griffion.

Quote

Notes on where I see your actions as violating town etiquette:
1:  If someone is applying pressure on someone you don't see as scummy, think about why they are doing so.  Even if you can't see their case give them some time to develop it.  Maybe they saw hints of something that you missed and are applying pressure to see if they can get their target to display it again so they can show the rest of town.  On the other hand maybe they don't really have a case and are just applying pressure to look like they are doing something.  Again by waiting for a bit you can observe them and see if their case develops into something substantial, if it doesn't and they don't back off then they are probably either guilty of tunneling or are scum; in either case pressure is appropriate to get them to rethink their case a bit.
2:  This is something that I personally have major difficulties with but: Just because they have a different play-style than you, doesn't make their play-style wrong.  This is critical to remember, especially for us newer players; being different than we expect doesn't make them scum, being similar to what we consider to be scum makes them scum, and that is very hard to differentiate in the middle of the game.

I actually don't remember hearing this before but I actually like what it has to say. I simply thought it was too soon for an all out push so I intervened and I never really considered the differing play styles and how they affect my perspective of scum. Please refer to my earlier posts to see why I thought Vectors playstyle would be poor for the group, not just poor for my "zen" as some people have come to call it.

Quote

Your original post was decent by itself as you presented a simi-reasonable (if stupid, more on that in a bit), but by posting that second bit you wreck any pressure your vote could have had, showing that you really don't care where your vote is.  As town, your vote is a weapon as you can use it to levy pressure on people, as scum your vote is a liability as you will be judged on the strength of your case and if you're not able to defend it you will be outed.  Of course if you can show that "Oh that was just a pressure vote" you're safe, so a weak vote is a natural defense for scum.

I don't see that. I was just putting some icing on the cake, I say any vote applies pressure.

Quote

I'm honestly a bit disappointed. 

Part of my scum hunting technique is to engineer situations where scum and town would naturally act differently.  I leave outs in my arguments after a certain amount of pressure to bait scum into grabbing on to them, as town will typically ignore these and try to prove their innocence via explaining their actions as best they can.  Leaving these outs gives me additional information on the type of panic my target is doing: which I hope you can see would be useful. 

What you attacked was not one of these situations.  I made it clear in my post that I saw that the content of what I was saying was borderline buddying, but I felt that this was a rare instance where it would actually help strengthen town by keeping one of our strongest scum-hunters active and engaged rather than standing by and letting her be worn out by your frankly idiotic attack (see above for why it was idiotic).  My question is; are you ACTIVELY trying to weaken the strongest town members (which she has a 7/9 chance of being)?  Because if not; why are you so insistent that everyone play this game exactly as you wish them to, especially those with years more experience than you?

First the buddy buddy part. Buddying is something that I frown upon, if you choose just a select person. I'm all for trying to be friendly to everyone (to an extent of course) but just going up to Vector and saying, "if you scratch my back, you scratch mine" reads as a scummy move to me. Moving on. I apologize for not attacking the point you wanted me to? I don't know how to respond to that properly. I saw something I didn't like and I brought it up. Your post didn't very clearly stare why my "attack" was idiodic because we have a butt-tonne of information on Vector Lenglon and myself. Other than having to defend myself from a multitude of posts I don't really see what went wrong. Please clarify.

Quote

Desperate to distance yourself?  I ask because you explain your vote as based on Shinigami assuming one of you must be scum, but the section you quoted simply doesn't assume that at all.

How weak! You are really going all out on me if all you can say to pressure Lenglon is that. Why such a weak attempt?

---

Moving on I will attempt, key word attempt, to scumhunt. I am tired though and I am lacking a bit in the skills department here but here goes nothing.

---

Quote

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Taking some flavour as a possible hint, the black rook and pawn would symbolize the two scum, the pawn being vanilla and the rook being the power role. That or perhaps just the stronger player of the two. The text would suggest that I have been poking up the wrong tree and have provoked the black rook. The people I have attacked thus far are Daygriff and Vector. Just some food for thought. You know,

Quote

Wow... Your storytelling is really articulate.  I love it!!!

I think I have to agree.

---

Because I am going to try to find a case on everyone in a short time span don't expect anything grand here. Just some questions and some points I would like to... well... point out.
Daygriff- I wont point out them all or anything but you have a tonne of posts that point out flaws of my gameplay even though I had already excused myself for them. A good example is when you accuse me of not scumhunting when I openly said that I would not post anything with weight until late at night. At least two or three times before your post.
Your question-Now that it is the night of monday, you are capable of pointing out lurkers and active lurkers. What are your reads on activity specifically. If they are active lurking, how so? If they are active, are they active in a positive, negative, neutral way or something else.

---

Vector- You said that you were waiting for ford. Well he is here now and you are nowhere to be seen. Please post, you were incredibly active at first but you are fading into obscurity.
Here is your question- Who do you know here from meta game. Are they behaving normally or abnormally? How so?

---

Cheesecake- Lurking... Lurking... Lurking. I can't say anything else because you know. You seem to be lurking. This game requires a lot of time so I tend to expect to much from people but you are MIA and "that is, no good"- sonic the hedgehog.
your question- I want reads. (sorry Vector, I notice you are looking for the same.) Not just simple reads, full, thorough, in depth reads of everyone here. Almost everyone has posted a quantity of content so you should have lots to work with here.

---

And I need to go, I will post something continuing this post tomorrow but I'm turning in for the night now.

I got the people I wanted most but I will find time for everyone else as well. For future me, when I want to remember who I missed

-Lenglon
-RangerCado
-Demdemeh
-PupGriff
-CaptainFord

I think that is everyone. Good night.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 12:11:15 am

I'm going to bed but i have to address this. "Would you kindly" ... Really!?!? REALLY!?!? Ugh, i hate bioshocks story. (not really, it just freaks me out a lot)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 12:36:42 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Vector- You said that you were waiting for ford. Well he is here now and you are nowhere to be seen. Please post, you were incredibly active at first but you are fading into obscurity.
Here is your question- Who do you know here from meta game. Are they behaving normally or abnormally? How so?

He hasn't finished his reread.  I'm writing a 15-page essay.  Bug off.  This weekend was my big attempt to get folks talking; unfortunately it seems to have failed to function, O Judgmental One.  I'll go kick around some stuff once folks have done a touch more posting.

I know Ford, RangerCado, and Griffionday.  I'm waiting on Ford; both GriffionDay and RangerCado have been acting about normal and townish, but it's not like I've played more than one game with each (and I was scum in that game, so I wasn't all that interested in gathering data).

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

I don't see that. I was just putting some icing on the cake, I say any vote applies pressure.

False.  "[Vote XYZ], I'm just gonna put my vote here for RVS :P" does not apply any meaningful amount of pressure, especially not to anyone with any sort of psychological shielding.  Playing town involves learning to crack scum's psychology in half, and a mere vote doesn't do that.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Your post didn't very clearly stare why my "attack" was idiodic because we have a butt-tonne of information on Vector Lenglon and myself.

Your attack was idiotic because what it showed us was mostly your psychological weaknesses, rather than anything about me.  If I were scum, you would have bought me a chance to pretty much mope around for the rest of the early game, act put-upon, and drag most of the town into lynching you for voting based on hurt feelings rather than logic.  It's go something like this: "Why is he so scared of aggressive playstyles?  Does he have something to hide?  Why is he chainsawing Lenglon?  He's just buddying and white-knighting her, and not playing any attention to anything else that's going on, or trying to figure out her alignment.  Scummy!  Scummy as hell!"

After that, I'd go after the people who had most willingly ridden the bandwagon.  And I'd look incredibly pro-town doing all that, too.

. . . Your attack was also idiotic because for some reason you seem to think a person who has played for four years doesn't know the first damn thing about being pro-town.  I played in the first Beginner's Mafia.  You've played, what, one game?  You may be good, and if you're scum then you may be able to beat me, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know much about technique.  Call that big-headed if you like, but no, I'm not going to sit here saying "Ooh, of course you know everything I do!  Let me pat your hand."

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Daygriff- I wont point out them all or anything but you have a tonne of posts that point out flaws of my gameplay even though I had already excused myself for them. A good example is when you accuse me of not scumhunting when I openly said that I would not post anything with weight until late at night. At least two or three times before your post.
Your question-Now that it is the night of monday, you are capable of pointing out lurkers and active lurkers. What are your reads on activity specifically. If they are active lurking, how so? If they are active, are they active in a positive, negative, neutral way or something else.

You sure seem to OMGUS a lot.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 21, 2013, 03:47:52 am

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(0) -
• Griffionday(1) - Shinigami_King
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(2) - griffinpup, Captain Ford
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(3) - Cheesecake, RangerCado, Lenglon

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"...It's been five minutes. Your move."
"Correction: I have moved since five of your time-standards ago."
"Well you said nothing!"
"I only speak in response, or when your king is in...Check."
"Alright, fine. I see that corner-move. Pawn D6xE7"
"Your move is invalid."
"What? No it isn't."

A shrill whistle was heard from the chessboard. The White Queenside Bishop was pointing at his King, who seemed pretty distraught judging by the pout on his kingly face. A Pawn was putting its best intimidation face as it leveled its spear at his majesty's chest, very reluctantly.

"...I hate you."

---

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 10:54:34 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

I could make a joke about your name and imply that Shinigami, who you happened to be butting heads with, was of lower value then you.  Pawn < Rook.  Regardless, I thought that you were too vain to see my ploy.  That was my first read.  I did learn valuable things in this encounter though.  You saw this one, but you won't see my next one!

Guys, for your FYI, this will be my last post tonight.  I'm looking forward to reading your guys' responses to the myriad questions hanging around unanswered.

TBH...I don't know where you started, nor how its all related to everyone else (...There's a Pawn here? I'm vain? I saw something?). O_o

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Tiruin- vote count, would you kindly?

*check* It's better to bold 'Votecount' but that was pretty obvious ;P

---

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 09:52:37 pm

General note:
Most of you probably already know but; our GM is in a different time zone than most of us: check the link in her post to determine when day ends for you.  For those who are in PST with me; the day ends 6 AM Thursday.  We've a fair bit of time and can always extend, this is just a heads up.

Yep. If you'd note the timer I'm linking, it points to Manila--our Capital (GMT/UTC +8) so there's your basis. I would've linked numerous other common area-times people are playing at but have no idea how to...

---

Daygriff?...Oh.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 04:53:07 am

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 09:16:12 pm

I am only attacking those who posted over the weekend. It proved they were on the forum and because it was the weekend they had no obligation to post. To post a little bit is like someone saying "Hey, I'm here! I don't really care about what is going on but I will side with the leading team without adding anything. Welp, guess it's time to go now" That's why I have been calling out active lurking.

Okay "calling out active lurking" could refer to one or some combination of three posts:  187 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4260460#msg4260460), 184 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.180), or 177 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4260032#msg4260032).  Meaning you called some combination of Cheesecake, Demdemeh, Ranger and me out on active lurking:

Spoiler:  Definition of term (click to show/hide)

Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance).

Which none of us have displayed (You could make a case for a display of lurking; but you can't just slap on the word "active" to make your case read as stronger).
So, no; you haven't been calling people out on active lurking, you've just been increasing the signal to noise ratio in the game.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 20, 2013, 09:16:12 pm

-spoiler containing my post-
There ya go. First answer, week RVS questions are better than nothing. And by attacking Vector I was doing something that could help later in the game.
Second. I just finished having a nice long talk with her and we were both tired. The questions I then asked were in fact related, and were decent questions.
Third. Yes, I guess. I did care and still do. I add certain things like "Ciao" "eh" "ya" and "I guess" so that I appear human. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
Fourth. RVS is just something that I feel should be done. Random questions that might actually lead to something. I like the concept.
And that's all I'm going to address from that post. Moving on~

A few things:
One - You never addressed why you completely missed this post; or at least why you whined about me not posting reasons for voting you when my post was sitting right there.

Quote from: Two

First answer, week RVS questions are better than nothing.

Not really.  Weak RVS questions give scum a chance to get their footing in the game and get in the swing of answering questions as if the pressure attached was invalid. 

Quote from: Three

And by attacking Vector I was doing something that could help later in the game.

I fail to see how your buddying could help you later in the game... unless you're scum.

Quote from: And Four

The questions I then asked were in fact related, and were decent questions.

I assume this is related to my comment about finding things to prod people about?  I didn't mean ask people for their reads: I meant find something in what they posted that you disagree with and hound them about it.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

I'm all for trying to be friendly to everyone (to an extent of course) but just going up to Vector and saying, "if you scratch my back, you scratch mine" reads as a scummy move to me.

Uh huh... because Vector is going to give me deferential treatment because I stepped in to back her?  Not to sound patronizing, but I have FAR to much respect for her as a player to think she would do something like that.  I stepped in as a happy Vector is a more interesting Vector to learn from, and she seemed to be trending toward being an unhappy Vector.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Moving on. I apologize for not attacking the point you wanted me to? I don't know how to respond to that properly. I saw something I didn't like and I brought it up.

I was mostly bemoaning the fact that I have yet to be able to test this theory on someone I'm reading as scum, and so can't be sure it's a valid theory yet.  It did allow me to read Ranger as town in Magic Mafia when he came clean about lying, but I've not had the luck to try it on scum yet.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Your post didn't very clearly stare why my "attack" was idiodic because we have a butt-tonne of information on Vector Lenglon and myself. Other than having to defend myself from a multitude of posts I don't really see what went wrong. Please clarify.

See Vector's post for the most part (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261418#msg4261418).  I also consider it to be idiotic as a town play as you needlessly drew Vector and I into questioning you: wasting all of our time.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Quote

Desperate to distance yourself?  I ask because you explain your vote as based on Shinigami assuming one of you must be scum, but the section you quoted simply doesn't assume that at all.

How weak! You are really going all out on me if all you can say to pressure Lenglon is that. Why such a weak attempt?

Because I'm busy developing another read right now.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Daygriff- I wont point out them all or anything but you have a tonne of posts that point out flaws of my gameplay even though I had already excused myself for them. A good example is when you accuse me of not scumhunting when I openly said that I would not post anything with weight until late at night. At least two or three times before your post.

Excusing yourself clears you to play like scum?  I was unaware of this.

Oh, and the specific example you cite?  Complete bullshit.  You post saying that you won't post anything substantial until 6 here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4259997#msg4259997)  I only posted one post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4260730#msg4260730) directed toward you in that interval, in which I do not accuse you of not scumhunting during that period. 

It's late and WAY past my bedtime.  I'll try to get to your question tomorrow.

---

griffionpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 10:54:34 pm

Wait a post or two?  I waited almost a whole page!

I meant a post or two by me so my attention had clearly left the scene, but I agree with it being an excellent use of flavor.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 10:54:34 pm

Regardless, I thought that you were too vain to see my ploy.  That was my first read.  I did learn valuable things in this encounter though.  You saw this one, but you won't see my next one!

"Vain"?  I'm hurt.  You aren't wrong about me being completely full of myself though.

Spoiler: FYI (click to show/hide)

Tiruin is a she.

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 11:07:44 pm

You dont seem all that excited so far, getting bored?

I assume you're referring to my attempt to cut down the number or random excited posts I make compared to magic mafia.  Yeah, that caused problems that I want to fix (seeing 16 pages they have to read to get back up to speed seems to turn off some players).

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 11:07:44 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

-snip-
You: Leaning Scum; with the previous read in mind your actions appear to be buddying Lenglon and providing a smokescreen for him by attacking his primary critic without reason, and then lobbing him a couple softball questions to help him get back on track.  Even if I make the assumption that Lenglon isn't scum; I still see your attack on Vector as suspicious because you actively disrupted someone's scum hunt while accusing them of disrupting yours.  You admit to this being your first time through RVS and feel justified in accusing somone else of playing this part of the game wrong...

You are accusing Shinigami of playing to prejudices and acting like he doesn't know what he's doing, right after acknowledging that he really doesn't know what he's doing. and you're acting like it's a scumtell. you know better than that. please explain this.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as "admitting he doesn't know what he's doing."  When I said that "you admit to this being your first time" I'm saying it's presumptuous of him to assume that he knows better how to play RVS than Vector; who has been around for a long time.  As I don't think he's THAT much of an idiot, I have to assume that he's trying to throw confusion into the mix: which is scummy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 04:59:46 am

To Vector:

I'm guessing you want my views. Well, it looks like everyone's piling on Shinigami, by skimming through all the posts and I might as well vote for Shingami_King. No offense man (or woman), just wanna get a vote in so I do something.

I know this is horrible playing, and I'm sorry.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 07:28:48 am

Wow, cheesecake.  You just went from lurky to completely scummy in four sentences.  You openly admit to bandwagoning, then admit that it's a terrible move, but still make it?  Talking yourself down only makes you look like you're trying to appear harmless, a scum tell.  I don't have much Time to post, but I figures it'd be good to get this up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:29 am

Cheesecake

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 04:59:46 am

To Vector:

I'm guessing you want my views. Well, it looks like everyone's piling on Shinigami, by skimming through all the posts and I might as well vote for Shingami_King. No offense man (or woman), just wanna get a vote in so I do something.

I know this is horrible playing, and I'm sorry.

please tell me this is a joke. we need you to be active, not to make an admitted bandwagon vote with no justification! get in here and do something, this was possibly the single scummiest possible response you could have made to Vector.
Day:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 04:53:07 am

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 11:07:44 pm

You dont seem all that excited so far, getting bored?

I assume you're referring to my attempt to cut down the number or random excited posts I make compared to magic mafia.  Yeah, that caused problems that I want to fix (seeing 16 pages they have to read to get back up to speed seems to turn off some players).

It's interesting that you removed the quote from this section. did you want to avoid having people look at the bit about "excitement of the hunt", something that you hadn't been displaying?

really. what i'm talking about is partally the way you were questioning me. as you yourself pointed out, i never really felt like i needed to focus very much on your questions. why? becuase they were repeats of vector's. After that I started looking over the rest of your posts and I found something interesting. You've been keeping a very centered position, not taking many if any risks and not going to any real extremes. Vector for contrast commited and pushed... hard. You've been active, and your posts have contained real content, but you never seem driven or Excited. It really does remind me of the very centered way deathsword posted. nothing scummy, no real pressure, never over-commiting to anything. you're making sure every case you make has very firm ground to stand on.

why are you being so careful to never get caught off balance? why the caution? It's not exactly a scum play, but it's certainly one that prevents you from being attacked effectively... a defensive style, in other words.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 09:04:43 am

Okay. I'm sorry. That was a stupid move. Unvote. I seriously don't know who to vote for. I guess I ask questions. So, could you tell me what kind of questions to ask please? Thanks.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 11:58:31 am

Cheesecake: If your going to vote someone, give reasons. If you can't give reasons for a vote, give questions to the voted. Almost all votes hold some power so use it to gain information. At the end of the day, you don't have to vote.

Shinigami: Meant to address this earlier. Deathsword never actually used his IC voice to influence you guys last game. He made comments that an IC might make, but never used Brackets {} () to show that they were as unbiased as possible. You all ended up tricking yourselves with that.

Demdemeh: At the start of the day you seemed to be leaning town for me, until this started. You've been confusing whos who twice now, Edited a quote without out stating so until called out on it, and have done little in hunting players. What are your current reads, why should you not be lynched, and why do you keep confusing players? (Rant over)

Now, my current list of reads:

Cheesecake- Null. seems to be fumbling around, not sure what to do.

Shinigami- Small lean scum. butting heads with Vector over playstyles, but not doing anything that could be considered Scummy except for constant accusations of "Active Lurking"

Demdemeh- Scum. Hasn't done much to contribute or hunt, keeps confusing whos saying what, edited a quote without giving a reason or pointing out what he edited. Weak vote on Shinigami which he has done almost nothing with.

Ford- Null. Hes still trying to catch up, what he has posted gives me no indication of alignment.

Lenglon- Lean scum. Reacting badly under pressure, accusing Vector of not broadening her questions to others despite doing that herself at one point. Acting quite the opposite from how she did last game.

DayGriff- Lean town. Doing what he usually does, nothing scummy coming from him and is addressing everything someone asks him clearly.

PupGriff- Null. Haven't looked into his posts enough to justify a read.

Vector- Lean town. Using her usual hunting methods, hasn't dropped any scum tells, and is doing what i've seen her do in other games as Town.

Will be back in a few hours, ciao!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 01:26:06 pm

Quick post: reviewing for a midterm that's in less than an hour.

Cheesecake:

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 09:04:43 am

Okay. I'm sorry. That was a stupid move. Unvote. I seriously don't know who to vote for. I guess I ask questions. So, could you tell me what kind of questions to ask please? Thanks.

Well, seeing as you don't seem to have reads on anybody yet; RVS is your friend.  Use your lack of knowledge about the game to your advantage by asking people why they're doing what they're doing (be more specific of course).  Point out where we appear to be playing differently than you expect from reading the information and guides here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88720.0), and ask us why we are doing so.  If you're not satisfied with our answers, or our answers don't make sense to you, vote for us and ask some more. 

When you get into the flow of things everything should make more sense.

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:29 am

It's interesting that you removed the quote from this section. did you want to avoid having people look at the bit about "excitement of the hunt", something that you hadn't been displaying?

I'm sorry my enthusiasm for the game isn't coming across to you... but it's there in fairly plain site if you've actually read my posts.  If you insist I'll provide an annotated commentary on my mood later.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:29 am

really. what i'm talking about is partally the way you were questioning me. as you yourself pointed out, i never really felt like i needed to focus very much on your questions. why? becuase they were repeats of vector's. After that I started looking over the rest of your posts and I found something interesting. You've been keeping a very centered position, not taking many if any risks and not going to any real extremes. Vector for contrast commited and pushed... hard. You've been active, and your posts have contained real content, but you never seem driven or Excited. It really does remind me of the very centered way deathsword posted. nothing scummy, no real pressure, never over-commiting to anything. you're making sure every case you make has very firm ground to stand on.

"Nothing scummy" and "no real pressure"? Those are pretty much opposites.  Now as to why I'm not applying pressure to you: I'm under a bit of a time crunch with school and work and so only have time for one case at a time; while you seem more blatantly scummy, Shinigami is a bit more grey for me and so he's the current focus of my pressure.  Need I remind you that we're only part way through the day?

As for making sure every case I make has firm ground: You seem to only be observing my negative cases (on you and Shinigami) as I AM going out on limbs for my positive cases on Vector and griffinpup; missing half of my cases, specifically my town reads, strikes me as esspecially scummy as it indicates that you consider the only valid type of case to be ones on who you see as scum.  I see this focus as scummy because as town we know that we not only need to find who are likely scum, but also who we can likely trust so as to focus our pressure where it is actually useful.  Scum I feel would be more interested in just finding scummy behaviors, as they can be presented to the town for mislynching.  Scum already know who town is, so trust isn't really an issue and they won't feel as much of a need to build their town reads.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 07:39:29 am

why are you being so careful to never get caught off balance? why the caution? It's not exactly a scum play, but it's certainly one that prevents you from being attacked effectively... a defensive style, in other words.

I don't know how well you know my meta, but I've ALWAYS tried to make my play obviously town, as should everyone regardless of their wincon.  Actually I feel like I've not had the time in RL to be able to do this as much here as I have in previous games.  The reason I have this goal is not to hide or discourage people from pressing me on my play; but rather to allow them to play to their best and not introduce noise into their reads.  If they want to validate their read on me then they should.  And as a matter of fact I'm rather suspicious of people who chose to unilaterally group me with town and then never check their read (before you say anything: this doesn't currently apply to this game, as it's fairly early D1; I'm just giving you the theory behind my playstyle).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

Day:
haha, nice, hard shutdown, attacking me in the process, again.

I'm sick of that.

I'm really, really, sick of that

ok then, since you can't get it though your thick skull what I said, let me make this clear.

your attacks are not putting yourself at risk. you have yet to push hard enough on anyone, me, or anyone else, to make yourself look scummy as a side-result. you spoke of excitement of the hunt. there never is excitement to be gained from situations with no risk. no risk, no excitement. the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

vector pressed me hard enough to put herself at risk, shinigami took risks defending me, I'm at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point, Pup is slightly overextending as well. even Dem is taking more risks than you. the only people who arn't taking risks right now are you, captain, ranger, and cheesecake. of the four of you, you're the most active, and the one who spoke of the thrill of the hunt. hypocrite.

nothing scummy and no real pressure are not opposite. pushing someone hard enough they start to break usually requires making yourself slightly scummy in the process. as I said before, look at vector's push against me.

and of COURSE i'm focusing harder on the negative cases. my goal is to locate scum, not to blind myself to the potential for someone to not be town. Positive cases matter a hell of a lot more when there's fewer players. earlygame like this you arn't going to be able to find scum by process of elimination, so why are you wasting time and generating "noise" even bothering to make them in the first place? save it for when it matters if you're so worried about "noise" generation.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 02:09:48 pm

^ This is a good point.

Griffionday, one of your persistent problems is that you play a very safe, pat game.  When I was playing scum against you, it made you look obvtown-- at least when compared with everyone else out there, haha.  Now it's making you look a bit defensive.  I suspect that you're having trouble with worrying about breaking people and hurting their feelings.

Here's something for you: we all signed up to break and be broken.  We can handle it.  Get to cracking heads!  This is why everyone always thinks Tiruin is scum, and why I've been able to use her as scum.  If you let folks' feelings control your play before you hit that "gentleman's agreement" we've talked about, then you will be led around by the nose.

Obviously, don't go past that line.  But folks will let you know when you're crossing it.

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 09:04:43 am

Okay. I'm sorry. That was a stupid move. Unvote. I seriously don't know who to vote for. I guess I ask questions. So, could you tell me what kind of questions to ask please? Thanks.

Have you read Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible in the OP yet?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 02:25:19 pm

Lenglon: I'm not taking many risks because i haven't had any risks to take so far, and i'm being more controlled of my posts rather than what i did Day 1 of Magic Mafia. This day, you don't have to take many risks anyway. We have no leads, almost no information, all we have to go on are gut feelings and major slips ups. Risks also paint a big target for mafia on your back because everything can become WIFOM from there. Hypocrisy is also not a scum tell unless its very specific situation.

PupGriff: You've slowly been popping up on my buddying list. Why are you trying to buddy your fellow Griff?

DayGriff: Vector and Lenglon have a point. Your play always seems to become very mellow when your initial hunting momentum stops. Lets get you back in the game! Who are your top 3 scum picks, why are they your top 3, and who should be lynched first of those 3? (I don't care if this sounds like buddying or looks like i need direction, i've already laid down my reads and active hunting players are better than non-active ones.)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 05:08:01 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 02:25:19 pm

PupGriff: You've slowly been popping up on my buddying list. Why are you trying to buddy your fellow Griff?

Perhaps you missed the series of posts explaining it.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 10:54:34 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 09:52:37 pm

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:38:14 pm

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   :D

I just made a fairly long post that included discussing how I view and react to buddying... And you buddy me to see how I react.  I LOVE your sense of style.  My only issue with what I think you're doing is that it would probably be better to have waited a post or two so I'd have more likely not to notice your ploy.

Just to note in case I'm wrong about what you're doing here: I'm assuming your post means you're rooting for me.  That's okay, (probably best to keep it in your head in case you are seen as buddying) but just because you are picking sides doesn't mean you shouldn't be hypercritical of both our cases.  I feel this misjudgment (more than an inherent imbalance in the team powers) is what cost the game to scum IC so often in the past.

But I seriously doubt you needed to be told that.

Wait a post or two?  I waited almost a whole page!  I also couldn't pass up the opportunity that Tiruin's post gave.  Not only could I comment on his great writing, I could buddy up to you using his own writing.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 20, 2013, 08:20:14 pm

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

I could make a joke about your name and imply that Shinigami, who you happened to be butting heads with, was of lower value then you.  Pawn < Rook.  Regardless, I thought that you were too vain to see my ploy.  That was my first read.  I did learn valuable things in this encounter though.  You saw this one, but you won't see my next one!

My 'buddying' with GriffionDay was exactly that.  Buddying.  The purpose, however, was different then most buddying.  My comment was in response to one of his large posts, in which he addressed buddying thoroughly.  I wanted to see how he reacted to me buddying him.  Unfortunately, he wasn't so full of himself that he didn't see what I was trying to do.  Frankly, I messed up my timing of my ploy.  I should of waited until he posted a few times to make it seem less obvious.
I have a question about you not catching this though.  You say you have a null read on me, because you haven't looked into my posts enough to justify a read.  And you missed this conversation that I had.  Are you simply being negligent when it comes to me?  Do you honestly believe that I haven't posted enough to generate a read?  Why haven't you spent more time analyzing my posts if you don't have a read yet?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 05:14:06 pm

Which reactions to your buddying would have given you what information, griffinpup?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 05:15:56 pm

I believe that I answered all the questions addressed to me at the moment, but if I missed one on my multiple rereads then by all means, bring it up.  Until then, a few of my own.

Shinigami-  You seem to ask a lot of people their opinions, but to the extent of my knowledge, you haven't offered an opinion on all the the players on the game, or at least the ones you have reads on, like a number of us have.  Please do.  Tell me who is scummy, who's town, and which scummy player should be lynched first.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 05:32:41 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 05:14:06 pm

Which reactions to your buddying would have given you what information, griffinpup?

Let's start with him not directly responding to that post at all.  I would of pushed... er... 'buddied' a little more, then a little more, until I got a reaction.  Be that him jumping to my defense on an attack unrelated to my buddying, or openly calling me out for buddying him.  If this happened, I would know the limit, or threshold, he has for people buddying him.  I could compare this to the buddying levels of other situations that he has called people on, and see if he was particularly susceptible to being buddied.  Him reacting differently based on whether I was buddying him or someone else would give me valuable information about him. 
If he immediately, and drastically, reacted to my buddying attempt, I would know that he is hyper-sensitive to buddying.  If he reacted as he did, calling me out on it, but not for buddying, but for me buddying him to see how he reacts, I get to know that he's not an idiot, that I should pay more attention to my timing, and that he can get people's reasons for doing what they do, not just what they do.
I hope that answers your question!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 05:38:43 pm

Uh-huh.  And how does buddying susceptibility relate to your finding out if he's town or scum?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 06:04:48 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 05:38:43 pm

Uh-huh.  And how does buddying susceptibility relate to your finding out if he's town or scum?

I'm not necessarily saying that I'd find out whether or not he was scum or town.  What I am saying is that the knowledge that I would gain, like his buddying susceptibility, would be valuable.  For example, if I happened to believe very strongly that he was town, then I would know how easily he could be duped by a scum buddying up to him.  I could then act accordingly, whether the correct action be shouting about the scum's buddying attempt so he realizes it, or letting him pound the scum into smithereens himself.
I believe that him accepting my buddying without blinking would also be a scum tell, who is looking for blind followers to help him lynch the rest.  Potential WIFOM territory there, though, so hard to make a decisive call.
You also have to realize that this is my first time playing with you particular people, and I want to learn all your mannerisms and weaknesses, so I can exploit or compensate for them, whatever the case may be.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 06:09:36 pm

Hmmm...I kind of expected a response from Demdemeh by now. My vote will stay where it is until he responds.

---

Cheesecake: Let me help you out here. The first thing you need to do is pick somebody, then yell at them in all capital letters, "DIE SCUM", then vote somebody else and demand they raise a case on the first guy you yelled at.

Okay, don't do that. But if you're going to vote somebody, at least dig up some dirt on them. Ideally, you should dig up dirt on everybody and then vote the person who is most dirty.

Of course the first thing you should do is answer all the questions that have been directed at you. Like this one:

---

Cheesecake: Are you scum? Why or why not?

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

"that is, no good"- sonic the hedgehog.

*cringes* I read it in his voice.

Oh god no, the flashbacks. Make them stop. Please. 

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 06:10:23 pm

Yeah, this is all WIFOM territory.  You're assuming that scum isn't going to play your compensation, and so on, and so forth.

There's been a lot of questions about how someone will behave in one situation or another, but those questions are almost valueless.  Your job is to find scum and hang them, and though you could spend days faffing about and learning who's weak to buddying and who isn't, your goal needs to always be finding scum, not learning the details of some situation that may or may not come up in the long run.

Scum isn't going to just sit back while you experiment.  Scum is going to be quietly learning how to distract you and keep you busy with things other than lynching.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 06:36:37 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 06:10:23 pm

Yeah, this is all WIFOM territory.  You're assuming that scum isn't going to play your compensation, and so on, and so forth.

There's been a lot of questions about how someone will behave in one situation or another, but those questions are almost valueless.  Your job is to find scum and hang them, and though you could spend days faffing about and learning who's weak to buddying and who isn't, your goal needs to always be finding scum, not learning the details of some situation that may or may not come up in the long run.

Scum isn't going to just sit back while you experiment.  Scum is going to be quietly learning how to distract you and keep you busy with things other than lynching.

I agree.  Nor did I forgo scumhunting in favor of this minor ploy.  I was compiling a case on Demdemeh through all of this.  A case that has gone unanswered, as of yet.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 21, 2013, 08:14:51 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(0) -
• Griffionday(1) - Shinigami_King
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - Cheesecake, Lenglon

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

The sounds of wood against stone bring a new tone to the arguments of the day.

"Excuse me, everyone. I need some fresh air. I can't think straight here."

The woman replies, somewhat in a sour tone after having a Pawn getting..."cleaned out" by a Rook.

"Move over by the window there--beware, there are no railings. Just a force field to keep things in."
"That'll do, ma'am. Just...give me time."
"Don't look down."

Cheesecake has requested a replacement!

Quote from: Cheesecake on May 21, 2013, 05:53:00 pm

Dear Tiruin,

I'd just like to ask to be replaced in the Beginner's Mafia game. I'm sorry, but I don't think that I'm cut out for Mafia. I simply don't have enough time, brainpower, or skill to play. If there are no replacements for me now, I'll continue on playing until there is one, as per my sense of responsibility. Once again, I'm sorry. I might try Mafia again once I learn more by reading old posts.

From your dear forumite and baked friend,
Cheesecake.

Ye shall be miss'd.

---

---

What's wrong with Sonic's voice btw O_o the only time I remember watching or hearing it was in my youth--didn't sound bad...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 02:09:48 pm

Griffionday, one of your persistent problems is that you play a very safe, pat game.  When I was playing scum against you, it made you look obvtown-- at least when compared with everyone else out there, haha.  Now it's making you look a bit defensive.  I suspect that you're having trouble with worrying about breaking people and hurting their feelings.

Close on my worries, but not quite.  I'm specifically worried about a repeat of last game where a quarter of the players dropped out due to having to read 7+ pages when they just had been gone for a day.  I've cut down on the volume of my posts, trying to compensate in volume.  This has the unfortunate effect of causing my post to take hours to write; at which point I'm to tired to hurt feeling.

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 02:09:48 pm

Here's something for you: we all signed up to break and be broken.  We can handle it.  Get to cracking heads!  This is why everyone always thinks Tiruin is scum, and why I've been able to use her as scum.  If you let folks' feelings control your play before you hit that "gentleman's agreement" we've talked about, then you will be led around by the nose.

This leads into the other issue I'm having; I find tunneling addicting.  I know that when I start a tunnel I will not easily be able to stop... and I'm no ToonyMan.

I do see some of what you're getting at though, and I'll work on the pressure issue.

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

ok then, since you can't get it though your thick skull what I said, let me make this clear.

your attacks are not putting yourself at risk. you have yet to push hard enough on anyone, me, or anyone else, to make yourself look scummy as a side-result. you spoke of excitement of the hunt. there never is excitement to be gained from situations with no risk. no risk, no excitement. the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

And the fact that I've had 8 solid hours of sleep since the weekend has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm being boring.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

nothing scummy and no real pressure are not opposite. pushing someone hard enough they start to break usually requires making yourself slightly scummy in the process. as I said before, look at vector's push against me.

Yes they are.  If someone is not using real pressure then that is a scum tell: obviously they don't care about their vote.  And in case you hadn't noticed I disagree that Vector's pressure on you early game paints her as scum; why do you seem to think it did?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

and of COURSE i'm focusing harder on the negative cases. my goal is to locate scum, not to blind myself to the potential for someone to not be town. Positive cases matter a hell of a lot more when there's fewer players. earlygame like this you arn't going to be able to find scum by process of elimination, so why are you wasting time and generating "noise" even bothering to make them in the first place? save it for when it matters if you're so worried about "noise" generation.

You're presupposing a LOT about what I do with my town cases.  For one thing; why do you think I told them out loud?

Oh and one thing:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

vector pressed me hard enough to put herself at risk, shinigami took risks defending me, I'm at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point, Pup is slightly overextending as well. even Dem is taking more risks than you. the only people who arn't taking risks right now are you, captain, ranger, and cheesecake. of the four of you, you're the most active, and the one who spoke of the thrill of the hunt. hypocrite.

So you're "at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point"...
You damn yourself with your own words:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

Day: first, please clarify:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

I've cut down on the volume of my posts, trying to compensate in volume.

What is this supposed to mean? You have me pretty thoroughly confused.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

This leads into the other issue I'm having; I find tunneling addicting.  I know that when I start a tunnel I will not easily be able to stop... and I'm no ToonyMan.

I dont know Toony's meta, could you please explain this as well?

Day: And second, please JUSTIFY:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

And the fact that I've had 8 solid hours of sleep since the weekend has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm being boring.

not boring, bored. you dont seem excited about hunting.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

nothing scummy and no real pressure are not opposite. pushing someone hard enough they start to break usually requires making yourself slightly scummy in the process. as I said before, look at vector's push against me.

Yes they are.  If someone is not using real pressure then that is a scum tell: obviously they don't care about their vote.  And in case you hadn't noticed I disagree that Vector's pressure on you early game paints her as scum; why do you seem to think it did?

If you think this, then why were your questions repeats? if you cared then wouldn't you have questions of your own to ask?

And the reasons I found it slightly scummy were listed in plain view when I confronted her on it. Considering that you attacked me for it at the time, I figured you'd remember it. Or did your memory disappear with your sleep?

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

and of COURSE i'm focusing harder on the negative cases. my goal is to locate scum, not to blind myself to the potential for someone to not be town. Positive cases matter a hell of a lot more when there's fewer players. earlygame like this you arn't going to be able to find scum by process of elimination, so why are you wasting time and generating "noise" even bothering to make them in the first place? save it for when it matters if you're so worried about "noise" generation.

You're presupposing a LOT about what I do with my town cases.  For one thing; why do you think I told them out loud?

I'm sorry, apparently you didn't read the part where I said I didn't think they were worth anything and wasn't paying much attention to them. that's odd, considering that you QUOTED ME SAYING THAT.

Still, you did ask a question, I might as well take a guess, how about... to look like a fair and active mediator, hell, you might as well be trying to moonlight as an IC. or maybe you were just adding some static and white noise to the conversation you scum.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

Oh and one thing:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

vector pressed me hard enough to put herself at risk, shinigami took risks defending me, I'm at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point, Pup is slightly overextending as well. even Dem is taking more risks than you. the only people who arn't taking risks right now are you, captain, ranger, and cheesecake. of the four of you, you're the most active, and the one who spoke of the thrill of the hunt. hypocrite.

So you're "at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point"...
You damn yourself with your own words:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 01:59:20 pm

the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

Haha, first of all, you were the one who said that in the first place, not me. I was simply parapharsing this little gem from you, which you quietly hid the first time I brought it up, hoping to hide the obvious message inside:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 19, 2013, 09:25:23 pm

For me the draw of mafia is mostly the social aspect.  It's an interesting experience as you can't very well expect to win if you come into a game with notions of who must be scum (with the exception of wuba) but on the other hand you have to judge people.  I love the fight to determine who is scum and then to convince everyone else that you have a valid target.  On the other hand I could see being mafia being an interesting challenge, having to keep yourself invisible, while at the same time trying to manipulate other people into agreeing with you...  I could see that being equally as exciting as the hunt.

secondly, have you even been looking at the scumreads people are listing? I figure i'm going to be a lynch target either today or tomorrow. I'd like it to be tomorrow so I can be here long enough to learn something, but in any case I need to do what hunting I can, while I can.

and seriously, the was one weak-ass OMGUS you tried there. Try harder next time.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 08:52:13 pm

Excuse me, but what are you, yourself doing right now?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 21, 2013, 08:57:40 pm

I really think people should spell Griffionday as either Griff/Griffy or whatever else differentiates him from Griffinpup :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 09:04:57 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 21, 2013, 08:52:13 pm

Excuse me, but what are you, yourself doing right now?

I think you're saying i'm OMGUSing... didn't I start this fight in the first place? I'm confused.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 09:36:06 pm

What I'm saying is that I think that both of you should back off a bit and rethink your cases.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 09:43:41 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on May 21, 2013, 08:57:40 pm

I really think people should spell Griffionday as either Griff/Griffy or whatever else differentiates him from Griffinpup :P

I think I'll take "Griffy" if everyone is alright with that.

---

Lenglon

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

Day: first, please clarify:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

I've cut down on the volume of my posts, trying to compensate in volume.

What is this supposed to mean? You have me pretty thoroughly confused.

Right, I meant cut down quantity of my post, and try to increase volume.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

This leads into the other issue I'm having; I find tunneling addicting.  I know that when I start a tunnel I will not easily be able to stop... and I'm no ToonyMan.

I dont know Toony's meta, could you please explain this as well?

I was specifically referring to the Toony tunnel (which he does not do anymore) that involved picking a random player and then just tunneling them into the ground.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 21, 2013, 08:18:19 pm

And the fact that I've had 8 solid hours of sleep since the weekend has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm being boring.

not boring, bored. you dont seem excited about hunting.

Sorry that was unclear of me.  I was counting Sunday night as well... I'm at around 4 hrs per night.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

If you think this, then why were your questions repeats? if you cared then wouldn't you have questions of your own to ask?

And the reasons I found it slightly scummy were listed in plain view when I confronted her on it. Considering that you attacked me for it at the time, I figured you'd remember it. Or did your memory disappear with your sleep?

*cough* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258539#msg4258539)

Yes actually: I have NO recollection of pressing you on the fact that you found Vector scummy.  My post history seems to agree with me on this point.  I DID however press Shinigami on this; are you sure that's not seeping over from the two of your conversations on scum chat? 

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

I figure i'm going to be a lynch target either today or tomorrow. I'd like it to be tomorrow so I can be here long enough to learn something, but in any case I need to do what hunting I can, while I can.

and seriously, the was one weak-ass OMGUS you tried there. Try harder next time.

Flailing isn't helping town; and the fact that you've pressed NOBODY about their reads on you and just let them hang over you doesn't do much for your case as town.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 09:51:31 pm

...
Fine
Unvote
i'll take a break and just chill for a day or so, i'm not afraid of reading pages of text, so feel free to keep going full steam without me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 10:24:39 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 09:51:31 pm

...
Fine
Unvote
i'll take a break and just chill for a day or so, i'm not afraid of reading pages of text, so feel free to keep going full steam without me.

>_>

Is there some reason why you don't want to scumhunt?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 11:11:08 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 21, 2013, 09:51:31 pm

...
Fine
Unvote
i'll take a break and just chill for a day or so, i'm not afraid of reading pages of text, so feel free to keep going full steam without me.

Did you just take a suggestion to reevaluate your argument as a free pass for not doing anything more in day one?  You realize we only have "a day or so" before we have to place our final votes. 

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Sorry~ No time what so ever today~
I'm just going to address a few things here that have been in the back of my mind all day. First some reposnses. (Maybe a bit over due.)

Quote

Quote from: Vector on Today at 08:52:13 pm
Excuse me, but what are you, yourself doing right now?
I think you're saying i'm OMGUSing... didn't I start this fight in the first place? I'm confused.

Can I have a deffinition of the term. I thought to omgus you had to vote for the person voting you, without having a strong reason.(?) Also, I didn't even notice but yes, I do appear to omgus, or if my understanding is right, at least vote for people voting me. I would have to say that the reason for this is that when someone attacks me they grab my attention so I notice more flaws from them specifically.

Vector, long, long ago you asked how saying that you played like scum would benefit your game. I have no idea where that post is, very early game though. It is an excuse to play like scum with a bit of a cover up, you simply say that "oh, this is just how I play" and pretend like nothing is wrong.

I have been asked multiple times about "me expecting vector to change her style". I just figured that Vector is skilled in the game so she may be able to adjust her style to benefit our newb-ish play. I only originally thought this because I thought her play disturbed everyone.

When I say active lurking to you guys I am saying that you have posted multiple times but almost everything said was void of content. That is active lurking, isn't it? Or am I mistaken again? Anyway, the only person I can really attack for active lurking now is Ranger. (Unvote by the way.) Your last posts added nothing that wasn't said before. Here they are in case you want to review it easily.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cheesecake: If your going to vote someone, give reasons. If you can't give reasons for a vote, give questions to the voted. Almost all votes hold some power so use it to gain information. At the end of the day, you don't have to vote.

Shinigami: Meant to address this earlier. Deathsword never actually used his IC voice to influence you guys last game. He made comments that an IC might make, but never used Brackets {} () to show that they were as unbiased as possible. You all ended up tricking yourselves with that.

Demdemeh: At the start of the day you seemed to be leaning town for me, until this started. You've been confusing whos who twice now, Edited a quote without out stating so until called out on it, and have done little in hunting players. What are your current reads, why should you not be lynched, and why do you keep confusing players? (Rant over)

Now, my current list of reads:

Cheesecake- Null. seems to be fumbling around, not sure what to do.

Shinigami- Small lean scum. butting heads with Vector over playstyles, but not doing anything that could be considered Scummy except for constant accusations of "Active Lurking"

Demdemeh- Scum. Hasn't done much to contribute or hunt, keeps confusing whos saying what, edited a quote without giving a reason or pointing out what he edited. Weak vote on Shinigami which he has done almost nothing with.

Ford- Null. Hes still trying to catch up, what he has posted gives me no indication of alignment.

Lenglon- Lean scum. Reacting badly under pressure, accusing Vector of not broadening her questions to others despite doing that herself at one point. Acting quite the opposite from how she did last game.

DayGriff- Lean town. Doing what he usually does, nothing scummy coming from him and is addressing everything someone asks him clearly.

PupGriff- Null. Haven't looked into his posts enough to justify a read.

Vector- Lean town. Using her usual hunting methods, hasn't dropped any scum tells, and is doing what i've seen her do in other games as Town.

Will be back in a few hours, ciao!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lenglon: I'm not taking many risks because i haven't had any risks to take so far, and i'm being more controlled of my posts rather than what i did Day 1 of Magic Mafia. This day, you don't have to take many risks anyway. We have no leads, almost no information, all we have to go on are gut feelings and major slips ups. Risks also paint a big target for mafia on your back because everything can become WIFOM from there. Hypocrisy is also not a scum tell unless its very specific situation.

PupGriff: You've slowly been popping up on my buddying list. Why are you trying to buddy your fellow Griff?

DayGriff: Vector and Lenglon have a point. Your play always seems to become very mellow when your initial hunting momentum stops. Lets get you back in the game! Who are your top 3 scum picks, why are they your top 3, and who should be lynched first of those 3? (I don't care if this sounds like buddying or looks like i need direction, i've already laid down my reads and active hunting players are better than non-active ones.)

1. Everyone had already attacked cheese for the same reasons. This added nothing and was redundant.
2. This addressed a game that happened in the past. Also you are wrong, look at the scum chat and borno's case for more details if you really care.
3.Everyone has mentioned demdemeh and these dumb mistakes. You are repeating previous comments. (I haven't discussed Demdem because I am thinking of other people)
4.Your reads stated almost the exact same as everyone else's reads/ comments. Are you even trying?
5.You used ciao. Something that I mentioned I try to use to make myself seem personable and human. Are you attempting to look friendly. Possibly joining everyone's bandwaggon to buddying.
6. post after post. There is so much activity here you can't use the "We have no leads, almost no information, all we have to go on are gut feelings and major slips ups". Everyone has shown suspicious activity. (See my reads below.)
7. Right here. "Hypocrisy is also not a scum tell unless its very specific situation." Please just keep this statement in mind. (Trying to cover your steps Mr. Cado?
8.I already addressed the buddying thing. Here we see that you are attacking people for buddying, something that you seem to be leaning towards.
9."(I don't care if this sounds like buddying or looks like i need direction, i've already laid down my reads and active hunting players are better than non-active ones.)" Buddying for one, I've already adressed your cr*ppy reads and this would be a good way to find out who to taget and how to behave.
10. You still have not posted much at all in comparison to us other players. Don't try hidding. We will find you.

I would also like to address the fact that you told me IRL that you have a tonne of spare time which is why you are going throught that Persona 4 Let's Play so fast. In other words you pretty much admitted you have tonnes of time to spend here helping scumhunt.

---

Reads- Okay~ here we go. This is a unique read post compared to others that I have seen.

Everyone looks pretty scummy.
Vector- you may just be covering your footsteps. Your original onslaught died out and now you are just playing. It may be because you wanted to look like you were a strong towny right off the bat. Your response?
Ranger- Well, just look. I've set out a case above so just help yourself if you are interested.
Lenglon- Scummy but probably suspected less than everyone else (except ford, he is special. See below.) I was thinking of attacking you just to see if you would slip up and look any scummier but you seem less of a concern. Besides, you are good at scumhunting so you can stir up the "civilians". Man, I like using that word in mafia don't I?
Captain Ford- Null. That's about it.... Moving on~
Cheesecake/replacement- scum? That slip up was stupid. It could be a sign of really bad scum or scum trying to create wifom. I'm going to wait patiently for their replacement.
Demdem- Slight scum. Where did you do? I don't remember much about your play seeing as you have been MIA, but I don't remember your case being strong at all.
"Griffy"- People other than me, seem to be taking notice of your slightly scummy actions though you don't seem prone to slip up. (I like that new title by the way. Just roles off the tongue. :P
Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd. But this goes back to the town etiquette that griffy mentioned so I am just going to stand back and watch you. Don't know what to properly make of you.

---

In short. Everyone is scummy except Ford who is null. I would say scum ranks are in this order.
Ranger
Pup (position interchangeable with griffy)
Griffy (position interchangeable with pup)
Demdem
Vector
Cheesecake
Lenglon

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 11:50:25 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd. But this goes back to the town etiquette that griffy mentioned so I am just going to stand back and watch you. Don't know what to properly make of you.

What habits in my play style do you find odd?  Not that I'll fix them of course,  ;) I just want to know.  Also... How many Mafia games have you played?  Enough to distinguish odd play, or is that just the way you describe a type of play that you didn't experience in your large collection of games under your belt?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 21, 2013, 11:54:06 pm

Also,

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd.

I wasn't aware you had any opinion on me, much less one of me being scummy.  To my knowledge, you never stated one.  If quote when you stated your opinion on my 'odd' behavior, i'd love to look at it.

Sorry for these short posts guys.  Got RL, so are hurrying them out tonight.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:58:41 pm

Odd being I don't know how to class you. You seem to be nice to everyone and you don't pick sides. At the same time you seem to actively scumhunt. It gives me a vibe of a well played scum. For anyone curious I have played the last half of the last BM, I am taking part in this game and the Minecraft mafia (but that doesn't even count. Everyone here should go look at it because it is ridiculous.) I have read two of the toon mafias (V and VI, I believe) due to the fact that I am going to be taking part in toon mafia VII. That's all my experience though so there you go.

Also I never stated it before. Like I said. I'll be watching you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 22, 2013, 12:02:12 am

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(1) - Shinigami_King
• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - Cheesecake, Lenglon

Cheesecake has requested a replacement. I have PM'd birdy51.


Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

You can hear nothing else but your own heartbeat.

That, and the noise of wind passing through the skylights and windows, into the room, and the arguments presenting themselves. Cheesecake could be seen staring out onto the vast expanse of coastline, sea and rocky cliff from far below the Aerie--out the window.

Weird. It seems the chessplayer seems to be staring at one spot for quite some time now.

"Ok, now I'm pretty sure its your move."

---

---

---

Quote

Shinigami: Meant to address this earlier. Deathsword never actually used his IC voice to influence you guys last game. He made comments that an IC might make, but never used Brackets {} () to show that they were as unbiased as possible. You all ended up tricking yourselves with that.

I'm stating this too--all ICs who have used their IC voice did not abuse it in the way that their advice (in those boundary-symbols) was biased.

Also, if any of these exist: Mod does not like people voting in Spoiler text or in quotes--it must be visible :I

Mod also would like to prod Griffinpup on his formatting as most questions are in unlabelled spoilers

Code: [Select]

Which can be labelled like:

[spoiler=This is a spoiler with a name]And inside it are your words[/spoiler]

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 22, 2013, 12:12:38 am

There's something you don't seem to understand, which is that changing my style is not going to benefit you.  My job is to show you how to play a particular kind of game.  I haven't even brought up the psychological pressure to 25%--I've been letting a lot of things go because I want you to feel nervous, but not that nervous.  Once again, for the last friggin' time: I know what I'm doing, and you need to be able to handle at least this much.  I already have adjusted my play.  Any more and you wouldn't have learned the lesson you needed to know.

As for why I've been moving back a little, I opened the day strong so that you'd be able to see how things should be done, and now I'm working on cleaning up folks' play so that you'll be able to make a good showing for the rest of the game.  Hopefully this cleanup phase will close a bit before deadline, and then I'll be able to go back to being more active.

By most folks' standards, FYI, what I'm doing right now would not be called "playing."  It'd be called "being passive" or "active-lurking."  But unfortunately, it's a necessary evil at this stage.


Tiruin: have you tried PMing around looking for a replacement?  I think Borno wanted in...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 12:21:50 am

Dem: Where are you man? We don't need a second replacement on our hands.

---

Shinigami: ...Woah.

1. Redundant doesn't make it scummy.
2. I watched the game all the way through and Death never used the IC brackets during his attempts to mislead everyone. He talked like an IC might but never used the brackets to make it so. (as Tiruin just confirmed as well)
3. So i mentioned the mistakes again. Might as well if it gets his attention to answer the questions i gave him in the same post.
4. Apparently not everyones reads as you've shown. A player can take what others have posted and use it to build their reads. How is that scummy?
5. Um, i started using ciao when i joined the forum as a way to say bye... I actually thought you were copying me with that.
6. Nothing to say to this really.
7. I've openly admitted i'm a hypocrite sometimes but if you build a case against someone using a scum tell they dropped that you also did, it doesn't make it any less a valid case. Find somewhere where hypocrisy was a scum tell and/or where i'm "covering my tracks".
8. Where exactly? I've equally addressed everyones little falling outs and the only person i could remotely be close to buddying would be Vector. And she doesn't tolerate that at all.
9. ...What?
10. This RL day has been the only time Day 1 i haven't been as active as i try to be, and thats because i was working on RL stuff for you and some science HW i needed to do. I was also recording some stuff since i'm trying to get back into that so my spare time has been lacking.

Why is Ford null? I have my reasons but you just said "hes null... yeah." Also, Pups play could also be considered quite Townie for the same reasons you've stated.

So you've gone on a rant against me and moved your vote, and you don't give questions to anyone else? (Minecraft mafia is a bust BTW, it just became a thread for everyone to mess around in( Like a fan controlled B. Mod)

---

Pup: If you need to, just take a half hour or so somewhere in your day and read through what everyones posted and try to find some slip-ups. And might as well ask, whos your current suspect and top Townie pick?

Vector: Your starting to make small posts with a single question or sentence in them. Where did all your previous energy run off to? PPE: Okay, your off the hook for now.

Lenglon: Really? Your just going to disappear for most of tomorrow? I'd say half a day of just mulling things over would be the extent this should go. Although the warning of your impending disappearence is appreciated, why do you think its a good idea to leave for so long?

MOD: Can we get a prod on Demdemeh? Also, EXTEND we're going to need it with a replacement in the works.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 22, 2013, 12:27:28 am

See, the thing is, I was fighting so energetically because folks' play wasn't showing that much weakness.  At this point, I've discovered that many folks are showing issues, and not all of them can be scum.  Therefore the thing that makes sense is to try to polish you guys up and find out who still looks scummy at the end, since otherwise my scumdar is just going to sit around being useless.

Eh.

And yeah: extend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 12:35:44 am

Note to Ranger and Shinigami:

I know you both have asked me questions I've not answered; it's looking like that's not going to happen tonight, sorry.
On that note: extend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 22, 2013, 01:01:36 am

Quote from: Vector on May 22, 2013, 12:12:38 am

Tiruin: have you tried PMing around looking for a replacement?  I think Borno wanted in...

I have PM'd Birdy51, but not TWS [Busy until June 1]...but right, forgot Borno :S

Whichever can PM back in the desired time would be good.

*Tiruin cheers for Vector*, because that argument's stepping out of Mafia and engaging in challenging the idea on how you play

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 12:21:50 am

MOD: Can we get a prod on Demdemeh? Also, EXTEND we're going to need it with a replacement in the works.

*Tiruin prods Demdemeh.*


3 extend requests out of 4 have been noted.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 22, 2013, 05:42:39 am

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(1) - Shinigami_King
• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - birdy51, Lenglon

birdy51 has replaced Cheesecake!

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130523T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 3
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"Alright, I think I'm ready."
"Huh, you're back already? Well, you've a lot to catch up. The Keeper is nearing the endgame back there."
"I'm back."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:11:42 am

Why do i have a feeling the flavor for the extension is going to be something along the lines of: "What! I lost!?!? Nononono, this thing cheated. One more try, just one more!"

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 01:11:00 pm

I'm against extend. We have been very active and we still have this last day. I am not worried about cheese's replacement because we can observe them the next day. I can appreciate what you have said Vector, about the changing of playstyle; I already said that I do not think the way I did in early game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Shinigami: ...Woah.

1. Redundant doesn't make it scummy.
2. I watched the game all the way through and Death never used the IC brackets during his attempts to mislead everyone. He talked like an IC might but never used the brackets to make it so. (as Tiruin just confirmed as well)
3. So i mentioned the mistakes again. Might as well if it gets his attention to answer the questions i gave him in the same post.
4. Apparently not everyones reads as you've shown. A player can take what others have posted and use it to build their reads. How is that scummy?
5. Um, i started using ciao when i joined the forum as a way to say bye... I actually thought you were copying me with that.
6. Nothing to say to this really.
7. I've openly admitted i'm a hypocrite sometimes but if you build a case against someone using a scum tell they dropped that you also did, it doesn't make it any less a valid case. Find somewhere where hypocrisy was a scum tell and/or where i'm "covering my tracks".
8. Where exactly? I've equally addressed everyones little falling outs and the only person i could remotely be close to buddying would be Vector. And she doesn't tolerate that at all.
9. ...What?
10. This RL day has been the only time Day 1 i haven't been as active as i try to be, and thats because i was working on RL stuff for you and some science HW i needed to do. I was also recording some stuff since i'm trying to get back into that so my spare time has been lacking.

Why is Ford null? I have my reasons but you just said "hes null... yeah." Also, Pups play could also be considered quite Townie for the same reasons you've stated.

So you've gone on a rant against me and moved your vote, and you don't give questions to anyone else? (Minecraft mafia is a bust BTW, it just became a thread for everyone to mess around in( Like a fan controlled B. Mod)

All of this seems to contain a lot of sucky excuses. I won't be able to properly address this until I'm out of school however. I can't concentrate right now. Right now I'll address a couple things at random.
1.(9) I'm guessing you say what because of that last bit? If you discover what others are thinking and who the list as most scummy/ most town you will be able to find who to attack and still appear town. (If they list their top 3 scum you might not want to attack their number one but maybe go after 2 or 3.) That is an example of what I'm saying.
2.(6) you have nothing to say? Because this is a pretty solid point! What are you hiding from. At least properly address it.
3.(5) I didn't copy you, it's just something I do. This was probably just a misunderstanding here.
4.(3) no, you didn't add anything and people are allowed to push their questions. He hasn't been answering because he hasn't been on. (Demdem that is) You don't need to give him more pointless questions. Key word Pointless. Like all of your posts.
5.(4) A fare point, you know, if you used their reads to build your own. You didn't though! It was almost the exact same.
6.(11?) The same could be said with deaths approach, I had the gut feeling he was scum but I didn't vote for him in the end due to lack of scumtells. If I have a gut feeling for Pup and his play reminds me of a well played scum I'm not just going to say "He is new so he can't play well". Everyone is capable of pretty much anything here. We don't know eachother for the most part so a surprise can be around any corner.

Ford is null because everything he contributed has been void of content other than his reads and it is pretty difficult to get a read on someone who has only stated their opinions of others.
That's all for now folks.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 01:56:28 pm

Just as an FYI to Shinigami: What you described Ford as doing is pretty much the definition of active lurking.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 03:41:26 pm

Thank you. I didn't even think of that Griffy. Ford is now leaning scum! Great, now everyone is scummy. Thanks for adding to my suspicions -___-

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 22, 2013, 03:48:44 pm

Shinigami: That thing you just did with the numbers is really confusing. You should really either keep the numbering the same or just quote what you're responding to. I also note that you haven't mastered keeping the links intact on your quotes either.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 01:11:00 pm

I'm against extend.

So I guess that means you're comfortable with your vote on ... um ... nobody?

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 01:11:00 pm

Ford is null because everything he contributed has been void of content other than his reads and it is pretty difficult to get a read on someone who has only stated their opinions of others.
That's all for now folks.

So what would you like to see from me, then? I've answered every question put to me. For some reason nobody has thought to ask me any other questions.

---

At the moment, Shinigami and the Griffs are coming off as infighting town, Lenglon as slightly scummy (though I need to look more closely), Vector as ... well, she's doing a decent job at being an IC.

Demdemeh struck me as being very opportunistic, as well as deflecting responsibility for his vote and his opinions to others. I do think he's scum (at least until I see a response), but I want to give him a chance to defend himself, if only to give the chance to learn from it.

So, Extend.

---

Same question I addressed to your predecessor:
Birdy51: Are you scum? Why or why not? (Show your work)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 22, 2013, 03:53:07 pm

...dangit, first the internet eats my post, then regurgitates it in a half-finished form and posts it without my consent. Ugh.

My boss is literally looking over my shoulder so I have no time to fix it now.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 03:57:38 pm

Wait... I'm nobody? Ford, Shinigami is voting me...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 03:58:52 pm

Just in case~ RangerCado

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 03:59:48 pm

16 hours till Day end. Making a bigger post when i get home.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 22, 2013, 04:11:11 pm

...I see. He showed up as Unvote on the lurkertracker because he put the unvote after the vote for you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 04:33:17 pm

Ranger:
Top three scum picks:
Lenglon; fits my picture of noob scum, calling me out on targeting him for something I had pressed Shinigami on. [Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4263385#msg4263385)]
Shinigami; Partly here because of his constant buddying with Lenglon; and partly because he keeps pretty much saying it.  I'm to the point where I'm wifoming myself into thinking that he must be town as he would be LESS scummy if he were playing scum.
Captain Ford; He's been far less active than I had hoped he would be... I need to do something about that. (PPE: Oh hey look, it's Ford)

---

Ford:
You defended Shinigami as town and simultaneously casually alluded that Lenglon was scum a little while ago.[link] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261318#msg4261318)

You do the same thing in your most recent post; there are several other points of equality between the two posts as well.  Did the interim between those posts change your opinion of anyone or are you still in pretty much the same state?

Second, as IC, what was the intent of this:

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 06:09:36 pm

Cheesecake: Let me help you out here. The first thing you need to do is pick somebody, then yell at them in all capital letters, "DIE SCUM", then vote somebody else and demand they raise a case on the first guy you yelled at.

Do you think such humor helps you work as IC or do you think you may have needlessly confused Cheesecake?

---

Shinigami:
PPE:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 22, 2013, 03:41:26 pm

Thank you. I didn't even think of that Griffy. Ford is now leaning scum! Great, now everyone is scummy. Thanks for adding to my suspicions -___-

You're welcome

I'm curious how you went from "everyone seems scummy to me" to "I think we're done with this day"?  That seems rather counter-intuitive to me.

---

Bird51:
Welcome to this game!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 22, 2013, 05:07:57 pm

Gods yes, a question! This is far less awkward now.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 04:33:17 pm

Ford:
You defended Shinigami as town and simultaneously casually alluded that Lenglon was scum a little while ago.[link] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261318#msg4261318)

You do the same thing in your most recent post; there are several other points of equality between the two posts as well.  Did the interim between those posts change your opinion of anyone or are you still in pretty much the same state?

Not much has changed, no. The two people I pressed haven't responded at all, so I'm kind of at a dead end there. Again, it's like magic mafia, I just haven't had the time to get much more than surface reads.

What Shinigami was doing when he defended Lenglon reminded me sharply of when I did the same thing for NQT in M&M&H (and then he turned out to be scum) ... and also for Nerjin in VLR (who also turned out to be scum), and also for Alamoes in Roguelike 6 (also scum), and finally, also Zrk2 in Magic Mafia (you guessed it, scum).

In every game I've played where I was town, I've defended scum in pretty much exactly that manner. Something about the way scum react to pressure apparently triggers my maternal instincts. I can't otherwise explain how I have a 5 for 5 track record for defending scum on day 1.

That isn't something I could use in a case against him, though. Only something I'd use as a cue to take a closer look at him. (How would Lenglon even defend himself against that?)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 04:33:17 pm

Second, as IC, what was the intent of this:

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 06:09:36 pm

Cheesecake: Let me help you out here. The first thing you need to do is pick somebody, then yell at them in all capital letters, "DIE SCUM", then vote somebody else and demand they raise a case on the first guy you yelled at.

Do you think such humor helps you work as IC or do you think you may have needlessly confused Cheesecake?

Lightening the mood? He did seem like he could use a humor injection. In retrospect, maybe following it up with a classic "make newbies panic" question wasn't the best idea. Totally threw off the tone.

Straight Answers: I think humor like that can be both instructive while preventing players from getting crushed by the pressure. I think I thoroughly botched it, though. Probably because when I'm writing in short bursts between interruptions at work, it's hard to keep a consistent feel throughout the writing.

Also, I'm ultimately here to have fun, and so I like to inject humor whenever I can do so without being disruptive.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 22, 2013, 06:18:24 pm

Greetings!

I figured I would go ahead and say hello real fast, to tell you I do exist.

I'll have the questions adressed to Cheesecake answered, so you will be able to at least stew over them at night. I would have had them earlier, but I was distracted by family matters. Just allow me a bit, and I should have them all answered by the Day ends.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 06:36:51 pm

extend
Don't' have time to post just this second, but I want to meet buddy before day two.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 22, 2013, 06:37:25 pm

ok, i've cooled my head, and am going to be posting something with actual content in a few hours.

to those questioning me on disappearing. to be blunt, Day was right. I was flailing, I had my facts wrong, I was loosing my temper, and it was showing. I needed to just take a day and chill, not to mull the facts over, but to clear my head and stop thinking about this mafia game, and come back in fresh.

I've skimmed over what was posted in my absence, but considering how out of it I was earlier, I need to do a re-read. also, from the looks of things, Dem might need to be replaced as well, and birdy hasn't been around long enough to be questioned. therefore, Extend

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 07:04:02 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 06:36:51 pm

extend
Don't' have time to post just this second, but I want to meet buddy before day two.

*Birdy not buddy, sorry.  My auto-correct on my mobile device obviously isn't as good as advertised.  :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 22, 2013, 07:16:46 pm

Hello, hello! This will be my formal introduction.

I am Birdy, Cheesecake's not so tasty replacement. I'll try to answer any RVS questions that were left for him. Please tell me if I missed one, as I want to try to answer them all!

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2013, 11:32:31 am

Cheesecake: Which IC would you prefer for a scum buddy? How about non-IC?

Vector. No question or doubt about it. I've only observed her for a short time, but she has a reputation that proceeds her.

As for a non-IC… I will openly admit that I am uncertain. I am not familiar with many of your tactics and gameplay.

Yet, to give some kind of answer, I must say that griffonpup seems like a good fellow to go murdering people off in the night with.  Griffonpup is doing a good job of being discreet, the model of a perfect townie, and in turn, a perfect scumbuddy. Besides, he was the first one to say hello and greet me into the game. That's always a good trait for a murder buddy!

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Cheesecake: another hypothedical. It's Day 2, you're mafia. you did the NightKill on Night 1, someone has just claimed Watcher (a power role that lets you see who visited someone else, and who they were visited by, but not what was done). they say they saw you visit the person you NightKilled that night. They also claim that one of the townies visited you. the townie has not responded, but they said ahead of time they would be busy for the next two days IRL. what role do you fakeclaim?

This is a very sticky and dangerous situation to be in. I obviously cannot claim to be the Doctor, due to the unfortunate death of my target.

This leaves the Watcher role as a potential claim, assuming we have no cops or other investigative roles. I would counter him with a fake claim of his own role, on  the grounds that it is much too early for such an important role to be shown to the eyes of the public. After all, what sane investigating player boldly claims that he is the Watcher on Day 2? He is asking to be night killed, leaving us all none the wiser.

On one final note, there would be one claim that would be surefire to work, provided the role is available. The Bus Driver defense. I would claim to be a Bus Driver, stating that I switched places with the dead man, and that I was the target for the Night Kill.

Doing so, I set up a clean lynch case for Mister Townie, with a possible side plot to kill the Watcher later that night. Maybe.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:25:57 am

Cheesecake- Have you read any other games. What is your preferred play style.

I will admit my noobiness, and say that I have not extensively looked over the logs of older games. While I am absolutely certain there would be good information and tactics to be gleaned from the exercise, I have always been one to want to try to learn things the hard way. First person experience is invaluable to me.

That said, I do have a play style. I am going to try to do my best and be perfectly honest.  This being my first game, I don't want to try to match the trickery of older players. This will only lead to my untimely death. Rather, I hope that being candid and sincere in my workings will secure some measure of success.  An honest man need not fear questioning.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 19, 2013, 03:19:38 pm

Cheesecake-  If it was Lynch or Lose, and you and your scum partner were both still alive, what do you think about the option of claiming doctor?  Cop?

I would be hesitant to claim anything that late in the game. However, I would be willing to take the fall in order to make my partner appear valid. I would ask him to fake claim as a Cop, and target me.

From there… We would see how the cards fall.

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 06:09:36 pm

Cheesecake: Are you scum? Why or why not?

Of course not!  Why?

I'm not the scum, because somebody else is scum! It's logic my dear fellow!

---

Any other questions for me?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 22, 2013, 07:41:03 pm

Extend.

Just attended graduation and finished moving out, am finishing paper, will be celebrating tonight.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 07:50:10 pm

The days been extended judging from the votes.

Going to make a more substantial post later. Also, Congrats on graduating Vector!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 09:06:45 pm

Now that I  actually have some time to address stuff, let me start with all the stuff addressed to me in the last few posts...

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 12:21:50 am

Pup: If you need to, just take a half hour or so somewhere in your day and read through what everyones posted and try to find some slip-ups. And might as well ask, whos your current suspect and town

That sounds too close to work for my liking  :-\  Ah well, that's no excuse to not do it. 
I can't give an opinion of Demdemeh yet because he hasn't responded to my post.  This is quite unfortunate. (He actually hasn't been on the site for over a day and a half.  Maybe start considering a replacement?  Not sure replacements for being AFK work though, so I'm not sure.) 
I'll answer who is town first, then go onto who I think is scum.
Um... Vector?That was harder then I expected.:o  It's hard to tell who's actually town, but I picked Vecor because she's the only player NOT giving off scumtells.  Vector herself said it best when she said...

Quote from: Vector on May 22, 2013, 12:12:38 am

As for why I've been moving back a little, I opened the day strong so that you'd be able to see how things should be done, and now I'm working on cleaning up folks' play so that you'll be able to make a good showing for the rest of the game.  Hopefully this cleanup phase will close a bit before deadline, and then I'll be able to go back to being more active.

I can't actually give an honest opinion on who's town or because everyone giving off scumtells can't ALL be scum.  (Unless Tiruin is trolling us, lol)  Vector is also experienced enough not give herself away in any large amount on day one, so I can't be sure at all who's actually town. 
I do have an opinion on who is scum, however. 

Shinigami-  I choose Shinigami because he isn't blatantly bad, like Cheesecake or Demdemeh (No offence), but has been giving off scum tells. He came into the game buddying pretty hard to Lenglon in the beginning, though they did both give explanations for that after being prompted.  That's not where it stopped, though.

Spoiler: Shini's Post (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Everyone looks pretty scummy.
Vector- you may just be covering your footsteps. Your original onslaught died out and now you are just playing. It may be because you wanted to look like you were a strong towny right off the bat. Your response?
Ranger- Well, just look. I've set out a case above so just help yourself if you are interested.
Lenglon- Scummy but probably suspected less than everyone else (except ford, he is special. See below.) I was thinking of attacking you just to see if you would slip up and look any scummier but you seem less of a concern. Besides, you are good at scumhunting so you can stir up the "civilians". Man, I like using that word in mafia don't I?
Captain Ford- Null. That's about it.... Moving on~
Cheesecake/replacement- scum? That slip up was stupid. It could be a sign of really bad scum or scum trying to create wifom. I'm going to wait patiently for their replacement.
Demdem- Slight scum. Where did you do? I don't remember much about your play seeing as you have been MIA, but I don't remember your case being strong at all.
"Griffy"- People other than me, seem to be taking notice of your slightly scummy actions though you don't seem prone to slip up. (I like that new title by the way. Just roles off the tongue.
Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd. But this goes back to the town etiquette that griffy mentioned so I am just going to stand back and watch you. Don't know what to properly make of you.

---

In short. Everyone is scummy except Ford who is null. I would say scum ranks are in this order.
Ranger
Pup (position interchangeable with griffy)
Griffy (position interchangeable with pup)
Demdem
Vector
Cheesecake
Lenglon

In this fairly recent post, he outlined his reads from all the characters.  If you'll notice, he gives an explanation for every one of his reads of us in his short description. Except, of course, Lenglon.  He called him scummy, but then ranks him the second lowest out of everyone?  Especially when he ranks people he read as "slight scum" as more suspicious then decidedly "scummy".  Shinigami actually gave an excuse not to pressure him!  Shinigami, why do you thing Lenglon is scummy but less scummy then, say, everyone else?  Since you never addressed why you thought he was scummy, what about his play makes him scummy?  What response do you have to the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, you have NEVER pressured him? Yet you make excuses to not do so again?  You say that he is less of a concern.  You then rank him to be your lowest concern.  Why wouldn't you be concerned?  Perhaps even though he's scum, you feel safe because you are too.  A definite possibility at this point.  He only pressured you very briefly over an issue of semantics.  In fact he pushed so soft that it looked like someone pulling punches.  Why would he do this?
Next...

Quote from: Tiruin on May 22, 2013, 12:02:12 am

Mod also would like to prod Griffinpup on his formatting as most questions are in unlabelled spoilers

Code: [Select]

Which can be labelled like:

[spoiler=This is a spoiler with a name]And inside it are your words[/spoiler]

Um... I have never purposely put spoilers in any post ever?  (Besides this one)  Are you sure this is to me?  If so, I'm quite confused.  If someone could clarify this, that would be great.
I think that's it for questions addressed to me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 22, 2013, 10:47:44 pm

ok, first things first, my reads:

Shinigami: Town, his simple utter recklessness and total disregard for if his actions look scummy or not is why. no scum would ever act the way he has, drawing tons of unecessary attention and fire, and taking massive risks for litttle to no gain.

Vector: #@%$#@???, I can't get a read on her, this isn't a null read, this is a "wtf am I looking at?" read. She reads to me as unreadable.

Day: scummy, the exact opposite of shinigami, his heart isn't in his hunting. he isn't taking risks, he isn't trying all that hard.

Dem: scummy, lurking, misattributed quote, just overall seemed out of it, even before his current unexplained hiatus.

Ford: Null, not enough interaction to get a good read on him, what liitle i've got has been towny, but there's so little of it...

Pup: Town, take Day, add risk-taking, and hard commitment, and you get pup.

Birdy: Null, new player, and the old one lurked until replaced. there's nothiing to get a read on beyond his "hi, i'm here" post.

Ranger: scummy, spent a long time on the sidelines, still isn't commiting all that much, seems even less agressive than Day. all he's done is not draw attention to hiimself.

Secondly, I'd like to apologize to everyone for my weak showing earlier, and apparently my earlier refusal to address people's non-question concerns was bothersome to many of you. if there are any such concerns you want me to respond to, please go ahead and voice them. I'll answer them as best I can.

I'll see about getting some follow-up questions to ranger in a bit.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:14:26 pm

Pup: ...I'm lost for words. Thats actually a very well made case on Shinigami. The one odd thing though is you didn't switch your vote to him. Why?

Shinigami: addressing these in order.
1. Solid point.
2. I'm not hiding anything. I had nothing to add to it so i said i had nothing to say to it.
3. Agreed
4. Pointless huh. And your the only one saying this. This seems overly harsh and unproductive.
5. Because i agree with peoples reads. Its kind of funny because if i stated my own reasons, which would end up being very similar to what others have said, you'd accuse me of being redundant and unoriginal. You've backed me into a corner with this that i can't leave.
6. True.

As for what you said about ford: You can't get a read on someone from their opinions? How does that make sense? It would seem more likely that it would be the biggest help to creating a read.

---

Lenglon: Well, i can't give much of an answer to this except that RL has been getting in the way of me playing mafia. This has been a bit of a packed week and with my aunt's funeral tomorrow, i'll be gone for even longer :( . Until you give me some questions thats all i have to say on this.

Okay, I don't think that Lenglon and Shinigami are the scum team. One of them is a definite possibility but if both of them were the Scum IC would probably have been chewing them out for buddying this entire day. going to UNVOTE as leaving my vote on someone whos disappeared doesn't seem prudent.

More after i do a bit of digging, and clear my mind of a few things.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 22, 2013, 11:29:29 pm

Is everyone familiar with the phrase "refuge in audacity," or RIA?  It refers to people doing things that seem so likely to get them killed that they "couldn't possibly be scum."

I'm not saying Shinigami is RIAing, but this is something you need to keep an eye on.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 22, 2013, 11:45:48 pm

Ranger: ok, first of all, your statement that you haven't had time is a lie. the reason is your posting history. today you made 21 posts. yesterday you made 15 posts. the day before that you made 18 posts. the day before that, was the day that this game started, and you made 4 posts that day. the only time you could reasonably use that excuse would have been on the very first day, May 19.

secondly, although you have been weighing in and listing your reads regularly, you have yet to pick anyone and strongly press them.

thirdly, each post you've made has been essentially minimum-length. this... really isn't that strong of a scumtell for you, because I've read your posting history, and you dont do long posts very often. but it does mean you've put forward very little material for people to weigh in on. or to phrase it differently, given yourself very few opportunities to make mistakes.

these are more concerns than questions to be honest, but I'd like to hear your explanations for what i'm seeing here.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:59:03 pm

Lenglon: 1. And if you go to those they were mostly short silly posts i made around the forum or in Minecraft Mafia. Of which many were made while i was in school, just checking up on things and seeing if i had any questions to answer.

2. I was waiting on Demdemeh, but he's gone MIA. As for pressing someone else, I have literally been having trouble finding questions to ask that aren't either redundant, as i seem to get flak for being redundant, or relevant to whats going on. I hate when i just start drawing a blank on everything.

3. This is mostly me trying to refine the way i post and word things from the disaster i was Day 1 in magic mafia where i made many mistakes and ticked a couple people off.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 12:12:49 am

1)Although most of those were short silly posts, If you look at the timestamps and spacing, each day you had about 5 hours of activity on the forums, probably more. I am still not convinced you have a valid excuse for not being active here.

2)There is nothing wrong with questioning multiple people at the same time, just because we're all waiting on Dem doesn't mean you have good cause to not question anyone else. Since you are running out of questions to ask most of us, may I suggest that you question Ford? he is actively asking to be questioned, and nobody has a good read on him at this time. If you can't assemble a case on someone that is already being questioned, then helping us all get a read of the others would be a good use of your time and energy. Birdy is also a good person to be questioning right now for similar reasons.

3)That is a reasonable justification, but it leaves unchanged the fact that there is little text in what posts you have made for me to judge you by. I honestly don't think you have a reasonable way to defend against this, and as I said initially, it's not a scumtell in of itself. It just makes it more difficult to read you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 12:15:47 am

Really quick post. Like, super fast. Just want to point out specifically to you ranger (others have done it too however). You make the excuse of not posting content because you are waiting for someone else. This really sounds like an excuse because you can go after other people as well

Ford- Why are you waiting for questions. Why aren't you trying to pressure anyone. Seems a bit fishy~ >)))>      <--(This is a fish)

(Also note that I wrote this before I pressed preview and saw Lenglon's post. Her's had very similar points to mine it seems.)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 12:34:37 am

Shinigami: A quicker way to show this is PPE (pre-post edit)

Lenglon: 1. Neither am i really. I'm a lazy person who loves to procrastinate. When all the activity starts to die down, i just kinda shutdown. Enough of this though, moving on.

Ford: I know you life is kinda busy but you really should have been able to, at the very least, gone and remade the regurgitated post of weird. You seem to be putting more time into Great Temple and earlier Elements than here. Why? And could you give us your top scum and town picks so far if you don't have a full list of reads?

Birdy: Welcome to the chaos! I'd like to ask you a few questions so please be patient with me. How much experiance do you have playing mafia, what would your prefered town and mafia roles be in this set-up, who are your top three suspects currently, and do you want a cookie?

MOD: I think you may want to contact borno and see if he wants to replace Demdemeh. At this point, if he does show up, i feel he'll ask for a replacement anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 23, 2013, 12:58:27 am

"Chess, as in reality, survives on the wits of people. The more you think, the more you hope to lose."

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(2) - Shinigami_King, Lenglon
• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(2) - griffinpup, Captain Ford,
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - birdy51, RangerCado

birdy51 has replaced Cheesecake!

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 25, 2013 [Saturday] May 27, 2013. [Monday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130527T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 5 [RangerCado (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4263660#msg4263660) ; Vector (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4263668#msg4263668) ; Griffionday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4263676#msg4263676) ; Captain Ford (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4265133#msg4265133) ; griffinpup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4265533#msg4265533) ; Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4265535#msg4265535)|| Shinigami_King (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4264556#msg4264556)]
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

The Game has been Extended.

---

"Oh come on!"

The voice is loud enough to interrupt the sweet banter of the round table for quite a few seconds.

"We had a deal on this."
"A stalemate is invariably apparent."
"That's my point. This should be an either, or. Not a mutual draw."

Several chess pieces who were still 'alive' scowled at the hinted thought.

"Reset the game."
"I'm afraid I cannot do that, my lady."
"And why not?"
"The losses have been far too exponential to anything gained. We will have to deal with this in a more practical route."
"I'm listening."
"Midgame. Two Bishops, Three Pawns. One King."
"Against your One Rook and infantry, huh. So be it."

She glances your way, and gestures to continue on.

"This may take a while..."

The rubble of chess pieces animate back from their still life. Glyphs etched into their stony hide now present themselves until their bodies are full again.

They ready their battle stances, and the game is rejoined.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:11:42 am

Why do i have a feeling the flavor for the extension is going to be something along the lines of: "What! I lost!?!? Nononono, this thing cheated. One more try, just one more!"

Nope.

We aren't that unsportsmanlike.

---

Quote from: Vector on May 22, 2013, 07:41:03 pm

Extend.

Just attended graduation and finished moving out, am finishing paper, will be celebrating tonight.

Yay graduation :D

Celebrate well!

Quote from: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 09:06:45 pm

Um... I have never purposely put spoilers in any post ever?  (Besides this one)  Are you sure this is to me?  If so, I'm quite confused.  If someone could clarify this, that would be great.
I think that's it for questions addressed to me.

Yeah that was for Shinigami's post a bit above mine there...oops.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 12:34:37 am

MOD: I think you may want to contact borno and see if he wants to replace Demdemeh. At this point, if he does show up, i feel he'll ask for a replacement anyway.

...Its only been ~11 hours since his prod.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 01:03:28 am

he hasn't even been online the entire time however. Coming up on 2 days in the morning. Speaking of which, i'm going to get some sleep. Ciao.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 11:18:42 am

I'm trying to work right now but I just remembered something from the very beginning of this. It has no point really. I was just curious if anyone's flavor text confused them. (When given your alignment/Role if you got one. Also take note that this is not role fishing and is a question directed purely at flavor text and nothing else.) When I received my alignment the flavor made me think I had some awesome bad ass ability that really doesn't belong in a BM. I got all exited and then got let down. It was just a little bit sad. :'(

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 02:44:33 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:14:26 pm

Pup: ...I'm lost for words. Thats actually a very well made case on Shinigami. The one odd thing though is you didn't switch your vote to him. Why?

Quick post at school.  I didn't put my vote on him YET because I want to hear his response before doing so.  Part of the reason is that I wanted to leave my vote on Demdemeh until he answers, but that looks likes an increasingly futile pursuit.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 03:38:59 pm

Birdy:

Quote from: birdy51 on May 22, 2013, 07:16:46 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 06:09:36 pm

Cheesecake: Are you scum? Why or why not?

Of course not!  Why?

I'm not the scum, because somebody else is scum! It's logic my dear fellow!

You might be surprised how many people get that question wrong. It was a good question for players like Cheesecake because it tends to get a confused reply that reveals something about their thought process. It's also an excellent opportunity to educate players that situations that seem complicated often aren't.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 12:15:47 am

Ford- Why are you waiting for questions. Why aren't you trying to pressure anyone. Seems a bit fishy~ >)))>      <--(This is a fish)

I think I just pressured two people out of the game. :(

But seriously, I exerted pressure on Dem and then was left awkwardly hanging when he disappeared. I do hope he comes back, but if he doesn't, I feel comfortable lynching him since I know he came back and at least saw what I had to say before he vanished.

I've looked over everyone's posts and addressed the things that leapt out at me.

---

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2013, 11:14:26 pm

Pup: ...I'm lost for words. Thats actually a very well made case on Shinigami. The one odd thing though is you didn't switch your vote to him. Why?

That's interesting. My impression of that case is that pup was primarily calling out Shinigami for being inconsistent between his detailed reads and his list. What about that makes him scummy enough to vote?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 12:34:37 am

Ford: I know you life is kinda busy but you really should have been able to, at the very least, gone and remade the regurgitated post of weird. You seem to be putting more time into Great Temple and earlier Elements than here. Why? And could you give us your top scum and town picks so far if you don't have a full list of reads?

That post is pretty much fine the way it is, now that I look at it. The only thing I didn't like about it was that the way I said "nobody's asked me more questions" made me sound like I was using that as an excuse, which I'm not. Questions are a surefire way of getting me to respond, though (and it takes ten times as long for me to come up with the same material when I'm not given a hook to respond to).

I'm definitely guilty of putting more time into the Great Temple, but it's not easy to get a game like that out of your head once your brain has started working on it.

Demdemeh- Scum, at least until I see a response. He was opportunistic and passive, taking an opportunity to direct attention away from himself and gather information about the opinions of a townie. I've not seen anything yet to warrant changing my vote to anyone else.
Lenglon - Kind of scummy. Responded poorly to pressure, flailing by her own admission. I don't see much that makes her scummy, though.
Shinigami - Refuge in Audacity? Maybe. But I don't think so. His flipping out was pretty genuine. Granted, it doesn't make him town. Still a strong town read.

...and I've spent two hours trying to add to this list of reads. I think I really ought to just get more posts out there.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 23, 2013, 04:10:32 pm

I offer my deepest apologies to all for having vanished for so long. I had a sudden, dramatic, and unexpected change in my work schedule for the week on top of a surprise visit from my mother in law, and have only now had the time to sit down and get back to this. I do not wish for a replacement at this time, and will not let this happen again without finding some time to at least squeeze in a “hey there” post.

 

Quote from: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 11:58:31 am

Demdemeh: At the start of the day you seemed to be leaning town for me, until this started. You've been confusing whos who twice now, Edited a quote without out stating so until called out on it, and have done little in hunting players. What are your current reads, why should you not be lynched, and why do you keep confusing players? (Rant over)

---

Demdemeh- Scum. Hasn't done much to contribute or hunt, keeps confusing whos saying what, edited a quote without giving a reason or pointing out what he edited. Weak vote on Shinigami which he has done almost nothing with.

I still think that Shinigami's outburst at the beginning of the game makes him a very strong candidate for scum. He also protests being linked to Lenglon, who still hasn't fought his way out of the scumlight, a bit strongly, and has shown a habit of tossing his vote around haphazardly. He also seems to be continually deliberately delaying placing any amount of pressure on anyone, not claiming distraction from work or other obligations, but just because he doesn't want to push hard.

I have failed in more technical aspects so far because I am far more often a forum lurker than poster in any context, and this level of focused activity in this sort of environment is fairly new to me. I will endeavor to be more correct in the future, however.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 04:35:57 pm

You sound a little stiff, Demdemeh.

Why is it Shinigami's outburst, and not Lenglon's, that strikes you as scummy?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 12:34:37 am

Birdy: Welcome to the chaos! I'd like to ask you a few questions so please be patient with me. How much experiance do you have playing mafia, what would your prefered town and mafia roles be in this set-up, who are your top three suspects currently, and do you want a cookie?

Good questions... Good questions.

---

To the first question, I reply very little. I am almost an absolute novice at Mafia. I say almost, as I did participate in a mass game of Werewolf a while back. So, I understand some of the basic principle, but not much of the finer points of the game.

---

Now, prefered town role! In this case, with me being such a new player, the role of the Townie is well suited for me. I am uncertain of my ability to judge the character of others, which is vital to being the Jailer and the Cop. Then, if I die following a lead, I am ultimately hurting the Town. A Townie is expendable. Power Roles are not.

For the Mafia roles however, I would be fine with either the Vanilla Scum. Because scum share communication, it ultimately will be that both me and my scumbuddy to decide who to spy on anyways. However, since he is the more important role, I can take the fall if he gets caught out. Once again, I don't mind being bussed if there is a good reason behind it.

---

Now... The last question is a bit trickier...

Well... Shingami has already caught my eye, mostly due to his earlier outburst. However, it could be just as others have said, he was just a bit hot-headed. So to be perfectly honest, he's just a name on a list right now.

Lenglon also strikes me as suspicious, but for reasons different from other arguments that have been made. This is more of a mutual distrust issue than anything. Certainly there would be some little nugget from my post to swing me in either direction... I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

---

Now my good man, I must admit that I am quite suspicious of you, on account of the nature of your questions directed toward me. Yes you. You are the third and final on my top three. Your choice of questions interests me greatly...I believe you are sizing me up.

First thing you ask is how experienced I am in Mafia. It think what you really want to ask is, how much of a threat are you Birdy? Have you played the game before, or are you a complete silly-nanny who came to this forum on a whim? The first question you asked me as an RVS follows the same general principle... How well do you know both the game and it's players?

The second question, asks more about the kind of playstyle I have adopted. Do I enjoy being tricky and crafty, or do I prefer a more passive approach? Am I a good little townie or perhaps something more devious?

Finally, who do I suspect... The reads I give are a reflection of who I am. If I follow the same general ideas as others, I may come across gullible or naive. Do I trust this player or that player?

At the end of the day, you seem very intent on getting a solid read on me, just as you are trying to get a solid read on Demdemeh. You've said it yourself that you would question him if you would just simply given the chance to. However, you don't ask the one question that I would be burning to ask, "Why did Cheesecake panic and leave?" To be perfectly honest, his behaviour was sketchy. The fact that you didn't ask that question leaves me a bit suspicious, especially give that you seem to be rather throughough in your investigation otherwise.

Perhaps it doesn't matter because you already know I'm not scum... Is this true RangerCado?

---

Birdy does not want your cookies. Birdy wants answers.

... And more questions. Questions please me!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 04:51:57 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 05:31:49 pm

I'm going to ask a few questions to various people.

Lenglon:  I want tho know what you think about Shinigami putting you at the bottom of the scum list.  He called you scummy, but not why.  Do you find this suspicious in any way?  What about your weak-sauce attempt at pressuring Shinigami?  Do you honestly believe that Shini cracks after someone questions him in a matter of semantics?  Do you plan on buddying with him for the rest of the game?  Will you start acting independently eventually?  I ask this because you guys have generally been pressuring the same people.  First Vector, of course, then you both questioned Day, ( I admit that this isn't as apparent as the others, but I still believe that this pertains), then you vote RangerCado right after Shinigami does so.  I'm not necessarily accusing you of BOTH being scum, but I don't want you guys blinded by past relationships when someone brings up a good case on the other.

Vector  Are you still trying to clean up the newbiness? :P Your posts have been quite short.

Demdemeh:  I still believe my prior post towards you is still applicable.  When you get some time please answer it.  Thanks!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 05:40:54 pm

I come home from a funeral only to find what feels like a band wagon taking shape.

Ford: It would have been a pressure vote in my mind more than anything really. Not sure why i was amazed by his case actually... probably sleep deprivation.

Birdy: Its strange to me that that is what you find me scummy for. It is true i was trying to see a bit of how much a threat you might be, but asking how much experiance you have is a question both sides can ask for that reason though. It also gives me an idea of what mistakes you might make that can be taken as newbish rather than a scum slip-up. Preferred town role was an RVS question i asked someone else (Pup i believe) at the beginning of the game and thought to use it again as its a very good question to help build a read on someone. As for the question for your reads, its useful to know. I am not the only one in this game to ask a player for their reads, and seeing why you find a player scummy can determine whether i should pursue a certain line of questioning. I have no idea if your mafia or not, and the only way to find that out is to lynch you so your role flips, or inspect you during the night if i were the cop. (a mass game of werewolves is also how i learned about mafia too! I was in a large group who'd just missed our ferry back home so someone taught us how to play for a couple hours. good times)

Everyone: Who else would have asked similar questions of Birdy if i hadn't?

Shinigami: Uhh, that question seems like one you would PM the Mod about, because this just makes me think you have one of the games power roles. And if i noticed this, others probably have as well.

Demdemeh: Please answer all the questions people have given to you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 05:43:07 pm

We'll see.  Don't worry so much about post length, worry about post direction.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 05:40:54 pm

Everyone: Who else would have asked similar questions of Birdy if i hadn't?

This looks like you're just trying to defend yourself by passing to group authority rather than paying attention to the folks who are hunting you.  You shouldn't do it.

Better thing to do, if you think you're being bandwagoned, is demand that everyone voting you rejustify their vote.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 05:57:50 pm

Vector: ...yeah, that makes way more sense.

Shinigami + Lenglon: Birdy just voted me so his reasons are fresh but please fully restate/refine your cases against me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 06:50:47 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

Lenglon also strikes me as suspicious, but for reasons different from other arguments that have been made. This is more of a mutual distrust issue than anything. Certainly there would be some little nugget from my post to swing me in either direction... I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Your opening post was, as is typical for opening posts, made under little to no pressure whatsoever. your predecessor turned and fled replaced under the mildest of pressure, so I couldn't get a reliable read on him. So I simply skimmed over your opener to look for any obvious mistakes and moved on when I didn't find any. as I said then, new player, old one lurked too much for me to get a read, therefore null. neither scum nor town, and prone to having my read of you change on a hairtrigger.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 05:31:49 pm

Lenglon:  I want tho know what you think about Shinigami putting you at the bottom of the scum list.  He called you scummy, but not why.  Do you find this suspicious in any way?  What about your weak-sauce attempt at pressuring Shinigami?  Do you honestly believe that Shini cracks after someone questions him in a matter of semantics?  Do you plan on buddying with him for the rest of the game?  Will you start acting independently eventually?  I ask this because you guys have generally been pressuring the same people.  First Vector, of course, then you both questioned Day, ( I admit that this isn't as apparent as the others, but I still believe that this pertains), then you vote RangerCado right after Shinigami does so.  I'm not necessarily accusing you of BOTH being scum, but I don't want you guys blinded by past relationships when someone brings up a good case on the other.

if you dont mind, i'll handle this in segments.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 05:31:49 pm

I want tho know what you think about Shinigami putting you at the bottom of the scum list.  He called you scummy, but not why.  Do you find this suspicious in any way?

You're refering to this I assume:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Lenglon- Scummy but probably suspected less than everyone else (except ford, he is special. See below.) I was thinking of attacking you just to see if you would slip up and look any scummier but you seem less of a concern. Besides, you are good at scumhunting so you can stir up the "civilians". Man, I like using that word in mafia don't I?

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

In short. Everyone is scummy except Ford who is null. I would say scum ranks are in this order.
Ranger
Pup (position interchangeable with griffy)
Griffy (position interchangeable with pup)
Demdem
Vector
Cheesecake
Lenglon

You're right that he didn't state why I looked scummy in that post, and that was a change from earlier, but I didn't find it suspicious at the time mostly because me being read as scummy seemed like the "in" thing at the time, and it was only a mild change from earlier in any case. as for my position in the rankings, although my placement isn't really explained, everyone else's is. so, process of elimination applies here.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 05:31:49 pm

What about your weak-sauce attempt at pressuring Shinigami? Do you honestly believe that Shini cracks after someone questions him in a matter of semantics?

No, I think I was flailing. That total failure of a pressure attempt was one of the many reasons I felt that I had to take a day and chill.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 05:31:49 pm

Do you plan on buddying with him for the rest of the game?  Will you start acting independently eventually?  I ask this because you guys have generally been pressuring the same people.  First Vector, of course, then you both questioned Day, ( I admit that this isn't as apparent as the others, but I still believe that this pertains), then you vote RangerCado right after Shinigami does so.  I'm not necessarily accusing you of BOTH being scum, but I don't want you guys blinded by past relationships when someone brings up a good case on the other.

I make up my own opinions, as does shinigami, and as should everyone here. If you or anyone else presents a strong case against him, I have every intention of listening and, after considering the situation for myself and making up my own mind on it, voteing for him if he comes out looking like scum.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 05:57:50 pm

Shinigami + Lenglon: Birdy just voted me so his reasons are fresh but please fully restate/refine your cases against me.

You're playing reactively, not proactively. you respond to when other players question you, but dont take initiative on your own. you have been lurking, and lied when questioned about it. You have yet to pressure anyone strongly. You hide your thought processes, making it difficult to check for if you are contradicting yourself. This is why i'm voting for you.

---

Dem: you have missed several questions asked of you. please answer them.

Ford: what do you think of Day?

Vector: I saw and understood your explanation of why you're staying on the sidelines for now, but how long do you plan to continue this?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 06:57:33 pm

Lenglon: I've played reactively as it suits my mindset. I'm not a very assertive person so i rarely take the initaitive. I tried to pressure Dem but he disappeared and i've been busy most of today. Explain how i've been hiding my thought processes please.

Won't be posting for the next 3-4 hours as i'm at my grandmas house.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 06:59:51 pm

Whew... long day at school and probably not even half way done yet.
I'm acutely aware that I've been dead weight the past couple days, I should be better over the weekend (which sadly means others will be gone... *sigh*).

---

Vector:
Congratulations on the graduation!

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 22, 2013, 10:47:44 pm

Day: scummy, the exact opposite of shinigami, his heart isn't in his hunting. he isn't taking risks, he isn't trying all that hard.

It's been a long week.  Next week will be longer.  And then I've finals.  I'm sorry that my play hasn't been nearly as sharp as it should be, and as I said I'm painfully aware that I'm essentially dead weight until my schedule lightens a bit (hence why the weekend will be better; and Monday's a holiday as well so I should be able to be active and useful then).  I'm around, and willing to respond to any and all questions people have for me; but school is my top priority at the moment.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 07:22:51 pm

Lenglon:

I'm not staying on the sidelines at the moment.  I'm hunting again, but playing maximum pressure all the time is the best way to exhaust the town and ruin them for the late game.

The fact is that most of your walls of text are full of responses to other folks' attacks on you.  It's not like anyone else's per-volume scumhunting is that enormous.  What I'm trying to say is, don't confuse volume with activity.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 06:59:51 pm

---

Vector:
Congratulations on the graduation!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 07:31:58 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 06:57:33 pm

Explain how i've been hiding my thought processes please.

I've been looking and have yet to find any real system to your scumhunting. I suppose it could be just me, but I'm having trouble fitting your actions, reads, and questions, into a consistent pattern. There might be a pattern to your actions, but i'm having trouble seeing it. this usually means you're getting extra input from somewhere that I can't see, either you have a different win condition or are in a private conversation with someone. both options imply that you are scum... or that I'm just bad at reading people.

---

Vector: fair enough, my apologies.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 07:35:56 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 23, 2013, 07:22:51 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 06:59:51 pm

Vector:
Congratulations on the graduation!

Wow, I managed to quote this without responding.  Now I feel pretty stupid.

Thanks, Griffionday!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 23, 2013, 07:36:37 pm

No worries.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 07:31:58 pm

both options imply that you are scum... or that I'm just bad at reading people.

Also, don't softball him.  The latter statement shouldn't be part of your attack.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Keestram on May 23, 2013, 08:41:05 pm

I'd like to sign up as a replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 08:51:18 pm

not nearly as long as i thought.

Lenglon: Does someone need a pattern to be townie? I don't see why a townie couldn't play sporadically, confusing all players to a point where its hard to justify lynching them, or NKing them as they don't seem to be doing anything yet their points are valid. This isn't how i'm playing but do you really need a pattern?

Demdemeh: You come back and make a small post apologising, then disappear for now 4 hours. You didn't answer anyones questions to you, you didn't ask any questions, you've only restated why you think Shinigami is scum. You said this is new to you and you want to get better, so make some posts. Even if its only answering 1 question and giving 1 question, it'd be better than nothing. Your lurking should not be tolerated so please start posting a few other reads, or maybe a couple questions, so that you don't have to be replaced. Why do you continue to lurk, who other than shinigami seems scummy to you, whos your top townie pick, (if its vector, tell us another) and give your opinion on shinigami's CURRENT posts. -rant over-

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 08:55:46 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 08:51:18 pm

Lenglon: Does someone need a pattern to be townie? I don't see why a townie couldn't play sporadically, confusing all players to a point where its hard to justify lynching them, or NKing them as they don't seem to be doing anything yet their points are valid. This isn't how i'm playing but do you really need a pattern?

such gameplay is defensive, and scummy for the same reason all other forms of defensive gameplay is scummy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 09:01:48 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 08:55:46 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 08:51:18 pm

Lenglon: Does someone need a pattern to be townie? I don't see why a townie couldn't play sporadically, confusing all players to a point where its hard to justify lynching them, or NKing them as they don't seem to be doing anything yet their points are valid. This isn't how i'm playing but do you really need a pattern?

such gameplay is defensive, and scummy for the same reason all other forms of defensive gameplay is scummy.

It wouldn't neccisarily be defensive play. Why do you think a pattern is needed to be aggresive? And as another refernece, is being careful yet playing defensively? Think about it for a moment. If you play too aggresively, people will start to think your being unhelpful and scum might just kill you to create massive WIFOM.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 10:01:24 pm

sorry for double post. Take out the yet in my second question. (i need to proof read more thoroughly)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 10:15:33 pm

Ranger:
WIFOM =/= confusion || chaos. 

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 08:55:46 pm

such gameplay is defensive, and scummy for the same reason all other forms of defensive gameplay is scummy.

Why is playing defensively scummy? 

I know Vector already covered this, but I want to know what you took away from that conversation.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Daygriff- I wont point out them all or anything but you have a tonne of posts that point out flaws of my gameplay even though I had already excused myself for them. A good example is when you accuse me of not scumhunting when I openly said that I would not post anything with weight until late at night. At least two or three times before your post.
Your question-Now that it is the night of monday, you are capable of pointing out lurkers and active lurkers. What are your reads on activity specifically. If they are active lurking, how so? If they are active, are they active in a positive, negative, neutral way or something else.

This is old I know; but the more I think about it the more I see this as odd. 

You vote for me saying that the way that I called you out on flaws in your game-play that you had excuses for was scummy; seems strange to me because I consider part of scum-hunting to be pressing people when you think their excuses are bad.  And then you make things worse by providing for an example something that I DID NOT in any way do.

And then you ask me to do... what exactly?  You're not asking for my reads, you're merely asking me to go and see who I see as being active, and who I see as being lurky.  This is not a bad question necessarily, but I'm wondering why you threw such a softball after voting.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 05:40:54 pm

Birdy: Its strange to me that that is what you find me scummy for. It is true i was trying to see a bit of how much a threat you might be, but asking how much experiance you have is a question both sides can ask for that reason though. It also gives me an idea of what mistakes you might make that can be taken as newbish rather than a scum slip-up. Preferred town role was an RVS question i asked someone else (Pup i believe) at the beginning of the game and thought to use it again as its a very good question to help build a read on someone. As for the question for your reads, its useful to know. I am not the only one in this game to ask a player for their reads, and seeing why you find a player scummy can determine whether i should pursue a certain line of questioning. I have no idea if your mafia or not, and the only way to find that out is to lynch you so your role flips, or inspect you during the night if i were the cop. (a mass game of werewolves is also how i learned about mafia too! I was in a large group who'd just missed our ferry back home so someone taught us how to play for a couple hours. good times)

Sorry to hear about your aunt's funeral. If you do need some time or anything, I would understand. Forgive me though, as I must press the assault regardless...
 
You have some valid reasoning, but you haven't quite convinced me yet. I cannot shake the feeling that I was being sized up by you, which causes me mild discomfort in my lower intestines. You've seemed to want to dig deeper into me with your questions. You even said that you were considering more as well. Getting a good read is one thing, but I feel that you were looking a bit deeper than that.

Thisgut instinct continues to make me very suspicious of you... Especially now that you've applied more pressure upon Demdemeh, someone who already has a significant amount of pressure upon him. Yes, he's lurking and he's admitted to it. But this issue has already been adressed. You claim a bandwagon against you, but then redouble and join the one against him, adding a third vote and tying your current count. This is suspicious. Afterall, he's given some reasoning behind his absense on account of work and getting aclimated to this new enviroment. The Day has been extended, so he has time to adapt and finally answer the questions set before him with the weekend.

In my own personal opinion, I would have stayed my voting hand a bit longer. But you seem to have grown a bit impatient and threw it on him again, which has only served to strengthen the power of my old stink eye. Unless something turns up that makes me change my opinion of Dehmedeh, I plan on keeping shart tabs on you. Be wary...

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 06:50:47 pm

Your opening post was, as is typical for opening posts, made under little to no pressure whatsoever. your predecessor turned and fled replaced under the mildest of pressure, so I couldn't get a reliable read on him. So I simply skimmed over your opener to look for any obvious mistakes and moved on when I didn't find any. as I said then, new player, old one lurked too much for me to get a read, therefore null. neither scum nor town, and prone to having my read of you change on a hairtrigger.

Fair enough! Your logic is perfectly sound. Not much more to say on that.

Quote from: Vector on May 23, 2013, 04:51:57 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

I was honestly a bit suprised that he said there wasn't anything to be taken from my introduction. His tone seemed to be a bit dismissive, which bothered me. However... He's ultimately right. Being new to this forum, I am a wild card. One post isn't really enough to build a solid opinion on me unless I say something absolutely fantastic that warrants further scrutiny.

That... and questions like these can be used to either look for a slip-up or a sign to confirm your opinion on who is who. Or... change opinions.

For instance, I am now going to go out on a limb and say that Lenglon is a townie. He answered the question much too frankly to be a piece of scum. But time will tell if this opinion will change.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 23, 2013, 10:26:52 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(3) - Shinigami_King, Lenglon, birdy51
• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(0) -

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 27, 2013. [Monday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130527T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

It is now noonday. For those who chance a glance at the windows--and thus, the lands outside--see a spectacular combination of light and scenery; the light blending in with trees, mountains and oceanic landmasses as well as their shadows in making a wonderful scene.

"Don't think about that too much. You may probably get to see it first-hand."

You notice that there is no railing or glass protecting that part of the hall from the outside...it's quite a nice view from near the top of the Aerie, really.

---

Note ahead everyone, I'll be absent on May 25 [Saturday] because of family vacation ^^

Not that it matters much--you're all in until Monday!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 10:28:50 pm

Demdemeh: Please respond to these outstanding questions:

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:03:25 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

Preferably hard evidence, and for that, there's nothing like a roleflip. A particularly strong or persuasive post can change my mind too. Borno did an excellent job at the end of the last BM presenting his case, although at that point I was still undecided.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Having trouble forming an opinion on your own, Demdemeh?

This is a pretty slanted question, designed to cast suspicion onto either Vector or Lenglon. It's even scummier when used on one's self, but in this case it looks like you're just trying to play the situation up.

And also this post from Giffinpup:

Spoiler: It's a big post (click to show/hide)

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:33:51 pm

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 11:53:13 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Dem:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

---

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 06:57:33 pm

Lenglon: I've played reactively as it suits my mindset. I'm not a very assertive person so i rarely take the initaitive. I tried to pressure Dem but he disappeared and i've been busy most of today. Explain how i've been hiding my thought processes please.

How about that gambit you performed in Magic Mafia? That took initiative and some cajones to attempt.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 10:30:29 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 09:01:48 pm

It wouldn't neccisarily be defensive play.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 08:51:18 pm

I don't see why a townie couldn't play sporadically, confusing all players to a point where its hard to justify lynching them, or NKing them as they don't seem to be doing anything yet their points are valid.

the underline is mine and relevant.
so it supposedly wouldn't be playing defensive, but it would be playing specifically to try to live longer? if that isn't playing defensive, what is?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 09:01:48 pm

people will start to think your being unhelpful

they'll also generally tell you when you go too far. case in point, the way vector told me to back off when I was attacking Day. or the way shinigami told vector to back off when she was attacking me.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 09:01:48 pm

scum might just kill you to create massive WIFOM.

Scum are going to kill someone anyway, and there are good reasons use of WIFOM is frowned upon.

---

A pattern is not needed to be aggresive, but a lack of consistency is a form of scumtell. since scum dont actually have to hunt, they just need to justify their actions and try to survive each day. scum will often say one thing and do another, or change their mind without rhyme or reason. the most common examples of this is the unexplained or minimally explained bandwagon vote, or a last-second bus on a doomed scumbuddy, and so on. however this logic can extend out to include having a lack of consistency in their scumhunting as a whole. I dont consider it anywhere near as strong a scumtell when extended like this, but I do find your attempt to justify defensive gameplay as a whole quite scummy.

---

PPE:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 10:15:33 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 08:55:46 pm

such gameplay is defensive, and scummy for the same reason all other forms of defensive gameplay is scummy.

Why is playing defensively scummy? 

I know Vector already covered this, but I want to know what you took away from that conversation.

defensive gameplay is scummy because scum's primary goal is survival. townie's have to hunt down and lynch the scum, which is an aggressive action, and aided by aggressive gameplay. if everyone has perfect defenses and so lynches are either totally random or don't happen at all, scum win, pretty much every time. we HAVE to act aggressively or the scum win by default, hiding and bunkering ourselves up is going to do nothing for us.

---

SO MANY PPES! luckily none include questions to me in them so i'll just post this now, and hopefully not find a reason to double-post after some further review.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:34:42 pm

Eh another post from me, but I forgot the adress this in my first message to Lenglon. Luckily, this is a bit on the lighter side...

Werewolf seems to be the popular popular game to learn Mafia from! I actually learned how to play it in my German Class... Roles were assigned by passing them out from a deck of cards. I don't remember much of the games, but I distinctly remember the Lovers somehow winning the game one round. Twas quite fun!

If only for our mutual bond in how we first experienced this game... I accept your cookie. But I shall not eat it. Not yet...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 10:44:21 pm

Quick post to address Fords question: That was something i didn't think would work and was going to stop it earlier if it hadn't seem to be actually working in Towns favor (I was right too that NQT was Town even if i started to doubt it at the end, I just didn't expect Vector to be able to grab a scum buddy from the masses)

I'll answer your concerns in a bit Birdy, i'm just a bit hungry right now. I should be fine as i was preparing myself for the last three or four days. Just kind of a shock as we all thought she was going to recover. (freaking cancer ruins everything)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 10:48:53 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 10:30:29 pm

SO MANY PPES! luckily none include questions to me in them so i'll just post this now, and hopefully not find a reason to double-post after some further review.

Don't worry too much about double posting. Since you can't edit, it's kind of expected.

I honestly don't know why double-posting is so looked-down-upon. But then there are times where I will post five or six times in a row (usually only when I'm very confused. I find it helpful to post one line of thinking before moving on to another).

Generally speaking, players find big walls of text more disorienting than multiple posts. Especially when you're following links from quotes and then trying to find the reference in a ginormous post.

That's just my opinion of course, and YMMV.

---

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 10:44:21 pm

Quick post to address Fords question: That was something i didn't think would work and was going to stop it earlier if it hadn't seem to be actually working in Towns favor (I was right too that NQT was Town even if i started to doubt it at the end, I just didn't expect Vector to be able to grab a scum buddy from the masses)

I don't think that quite addresses my question. You said you don't take the initiative and I provided a counter-example of you taking the initiative and asked you to explain the discrepancy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 11:06:13 pm

I'm sorry but I'm taking today off to relax. Good thing too because I notice that everything that I was planning on addressing has been covered already. I'm sure everyone is interested anyway to see where my head is at so here are the things I was going to speak of.
-Ranger, defensive=scum. See Lenglon's post.
-Ranger, You are behaving in a "Wait for others to do something" manner. See Lenglon's post again.
-Pup, Who we choose to attack is up to us. I have come to believe that we may think similarly seeing as we attack the same targets. I don't really know though to be honest here.
-Ranger, Why are you putting you're vote on Demdem who seems to have enough pressure? Why not, I don't know, attacking someone?

---

Griffy- Addressing your question. I realize what you are saying but when I excused myself I also promised to post at a time and I kept that promise. If I posted something with no weight or said "Oop's I forgot." I would be in a different position here. Also I softballed you by accident. In fact I have a bad habit of doing that (I play softball as a hobby). I was tired during the post so I wasn't thinking to hard about pressuring. Like I said, I'm not good with pressure, whether it's around me or coming from me.

---

I think that's it? I don't know :( If I missed something that you think I should cover just point it out please.

---

PPE
I disagree Ranger. Walls of text are disorienting but it at least shows that they put their thoughts in a row. If it's well put togeather you see a strong case or defense. It also presents a chance for scum to trip up and make a mistake because they get "very confused". So, would you mind explaining why you do so many double posts. (All with little content)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 11:13:03 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 11:06:13 pm

I disagree Ranger. Walls of text are disorienting but it at least shows that they put their thoughts in a row. If it's well put togeather you see a strong case or defense. It also presents a chance for scum to trip up and make a mistake because they get "very confused". So, would you mind explaining why you do so many double posts. (All with little content)

That's not my name but it's half-addressed to me, so I'll answer it.

Personally, I tend to post like that when I'm at work, where I get interrupted frequently, disrupting my thoughts and making it hard to string together long posts. In the past, I know Ranger often posted from this DSi, which I imagine has a very small screen and made it difficult for him to work on large posts.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 11:13:48 pm

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 11:06:13 pm

I'm sorry but I'm taking today off to relax.

-snip-

Griffy- Addressing your question. I realize what you are saying but when I excused myself I also promised to post at a time and I kept that promise. If I posted something with no weight or said "Oop's I forgot." I would be in a different position here. Also I softballed you by accident. In fact I have a bad habit of doing that (I play softball as a hobby). I was tired during the post so I wasn't thinking to hard about pressuring. Like I said, I'm not good with pressure, whether it's around me or coming from me.

Hmm... I'm still not sure what post you were referring to when you said  I'd "accused you of not scumhunting." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261392#msg4261392)  When you get a chance could you quote the one you were thinking of?  I understand this may wait until you get back.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 11:18:58 pm

Ford: You missed a question from me.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 23, 2013, 06:50:47 pm

Ford: what do you think of Day?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 23, 2013, 11:23:30 pm

Um... I think you missed this one Shinigami.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 22, 2013, 09:06:45 pm

I do have an opinion on who is scum, however. 

Shinigami-  I choose Shinigami because he isn't blatantly bad, like Cheesecake or Demdemeh (No offence), but has been giving off scum tells. He came into the game buddying pretty hard to Lenglon in the beginning, though they did both give explanations for that after being prompted.  That's not where it stopped, though.

Spoiler: Shini's Post (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:28:41 pm

Everyone looks pretty scummy.
Vector- you may just be covering your footsteps. Your original onslaught died out and now you are just playing. It may be because you wanted to look like you were a strong towny right off the bat. Your response?
Ranger- Well, just look. I've set out a case above so just help yourself if you are interested.
Lenglon- Scummy but probably suspected less than everyone else (except ford, he is special. See below.) I was thinking of attacking you just to see if you would slip up and look any scummier but you seem less of a concern. Besides, you are good at scumhunting so you can stir up the "civilians". Man, I like using that word in mafia don't I?
Captain Ford- Null. That's about it.... Moving on~
Cheesecake/replacement- scum? That slip up was stupid. It could be a sign of really bad scum or scum trying to create wifom. I'm going to wait patiently for their replacement.
Demdem- Slight scum. Where did you do? I don't remember much about your play seeing as you have been MIA, but I don't remember your case being strong at all.
"Griffy"- People other than me, seem to be taking notice of your slightly scummy actions though you don't seem prone to slip up. (I like that new title by the way. Just roles off the tongue.
Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd. But this goes back to the town etiquette that griffy mentioned so I am just going to stand back and watch you. Don't know what to properly make of you.

---

In short. Everyone is scummy except Ford who is null. I would say scum ranks are in this order.
Ranger
Pup (position interchangeable with griffy)
Griffy (position interchangeable with pup)
Demdem
Vector
Cheesecake
Lenglon

In this fairly recent post, he outlined his reads from all the characters.  If you'll notice, he gives an explanation for every one of his reads of us in his short description. Except, of course, Lenglon.  He called him scummy, but then ranks him the second lowest out of everyone?  Especially when he ranks people he read as "slight scum" as more suspicious then decidedly "scummy".  Shinigami actually gave an excuse not to pressure him!  Shinigami, why do you thing Lenglon is scummy but less scummy then, say, everyone else?  Since you never addressed why you thought he was scummy, what about his play makes him scummy?  What response do you have to the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, you have NEVER pressured him? Yet you make excuses to not do so again?  You say that he is less of a concern.  You then rank him to be your lowest concern.  Why wouldn't you be concerned?  Perhaps even though he's scum, you feel safe because you are too.  A definite possibility at this point.  He only pressured you very briefly over an issue of semantics.  In fact he pushed so soft that it looked like someone pulling punches.  Why would he do this?
Next...

[/spoiler]
I would appreciate some clarification on these points.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 11:28:33 pm

Ford: It was something i had little faith in actually working. I don't do those sorts of things on a regular basis as i'm used to being talked over, or if i do take the initiative, almost completely ignored. The gambit in magic mafia was something i expected to fall apart quickly, or just be ignored. (The fact that i guessed so much of the information correctly was kind of ridiculous though. that was fun) Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Birdy: More questioning would come from an odd appearence in your reads was what i was referring too. Something out of place or misunderstood was what i was looking for. Seeing none of that, your reads seemed genuine. Okay, my vote maybe a little over doing it yes, but he said he was going to get more into the game, then vanished again! (6-8 hours now since his last post) Fords is incredibly over doing it though, 4 votes is ridiculous. I'm not going to remove my vote though because this will just give lenglon more ammunition, and i don't see anyone else i might use it on right now without being accused of OMGUS.

Shinigami: You know me so you should know by now that if i don't over do things, i under do them. And as Ford said, i do post from my DS alot which is why i almost never use quotes too. I got a Blackberry tablet which i am using the wrong charger for because i lost the correct one at my Dad's house so it doesn't often have a good charge and quoting still sucks with it. Its also intersting to note that you completely overlooked Ford giving him a fourth vote despite checking the newer posts. Why did you not also address him? As for attacking someone, i could attack you or Lenglon, but the other would just accuse me of OMGUSing as you two seem to be working together in some way shape or form. You two can deny this but it would fit with how you've been playing so far. (My DS also has a letter limit somewhere in the 2000s or 4000s. its sucks)

Jeez, 7 PPEs. Atleast only a couple were addressed to me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 11:28:33 pm

Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Are you joking? I've been voting him for quite a while now.

I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 12:02:29 am

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 23, 2013, 11:28:33 pm

Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Are you joking? I've been voting him for quite a while now.

I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.

...Thats it, i'm going to bed too. No way should i be messing that up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 24, 2013, 01:03:52 am

Quote from: Vector on May 23, 2013, 04:51:57 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

I was honestly a bit suprised that he said there wasn't anything to be taken from my introduction. His tone seemed to be a bit dismissive, which bothered me. However... He's ultimately right. Being new to this forum, I am a wild card. One post isn't really enough to build a solid opinion on me unless I say something absolutely fantastic that warrants further scrutiny.

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

That... and questions like these can be used to either look for a slip-up or a sign to confirm your opinion on who is who. Or... change opinions.

Noncommital and vague; you could say any question serves that purpose.  What, specifically, were you going to do with any information you got from the range of expected answers?

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

For instance, I am now going to go out on a limb and say that Lenglon is a townie. He answered the question much too frankly to be a piece of scum. But time will tell if this opinion will change.

Buddying, softballing, and... noncommital.  If you say someone is a townie, then you should mean it.  It's fine to say "I think she's a townie, because X Y and Z," but "She is town.  I may change my opinion later" is just absurd.

Seriously?  "This is what I think of birdy from his single post" is enough to make you think that she's town?  What would it take to make you think that someone is scum?


Also... didn't you play in Not-So-Beginner's Mafia 3 a few years back?  I think I replaced in for you.  You were playing scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:33:51 pm

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

I have not been satisfied with his answers to my reasons to this point, no. A brief "I'm not looking for advice, but will write it down for later" is too vague to allay my suspicions; he could be referring to another game, or to a later post in this one. He also only responded to one point in my later post to him, asking for clarification and ignoring the rest. So, Shinigami, if you could answer the rest of

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 08:30:44 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King[/quote

Lenglon could verry well be one of the scum but wouldn't that be convenient for you?

So, with that observation in play, can you, Shinigami_King, let us know why you choose to play a game which has the potential to disrupt your thinking so strongly? Or is it simply the "Bible of Scumhunting" style of play that Vector is using which upsets you? "If you're suspicious, push... if they move, push harder," right?

So what do you feel is the best strategy for scumhunting?

for me, please? I've taken the liberty of removing the parts I feel you HAVE adequately answered, but the rest remains intact. In addition, griffinpup, I find it quite odd that you would fly your own flag of suspicion and pressure on the SS Shinigami_King, but at the same time attack me for the same. I can understand wanting my reasons, but your own questions and statements indicate that you're on the verge of voting for him (if you decide that I am cleaner), as well. Well, there are my reasons, and, as I stated earlier in this post, I also agree with yours.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:33:51 pm

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

I have admitted to my mistakes, and give what explanations I have. As far as putting pressure on people, I'm starting to pick up steam, now. I'm trying to learn the kinds of questions to ask from others, and to figure out exactly what makes me feel suspicious about someone. So far, I've been doing a poor job, which I have also admitted before now. Part of my reticence has also been an attempt to see responses to people who are more experienced than I am. I have been trying to assemble my own cases from this information rather than distract from the pressure with a more-than-likely inferior question which might allow an easy out and an excuse for evasion.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 20, 2013, 08:33:51 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 11:53:13 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Dem:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

I didn't push at the time because I was kind of embarassed at having made the mistake of mislabeling it to begin with. I felt that that error undermined my credibility with the issue, and was so frustrated that I had overlooked such a basic thing that I dropped it in favor of being self-centered.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:03:25 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:07:39 pm

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

Preferably hard evidence, and for that, there's nothing like a roleflip. A particularly strong or persuasive post can change my mind too. Borno did an excellent job at the end of the last BM presenting his case, although at that point I was still undecided.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 06:05:37 pm

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Having trouble forming an opinion on your own, Demdemeh?

This is a pretty slanted question, designed to cast suspicion onto either Vector or Lenglon. It's even scummier when used on one's self, but in this case it looks like you're just trying to play the situation up.

I have my own opinions. I just want to know what other people think. As far as the slant goes, I think that's entirely in your own head. What language did I use, exactly, to assign value to either side? Wanting to know where you stand doesn't make it slanted, and from what I'm reading in the part you even quoted, what I wrote was a pure opinion question.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 11:28:53 am

Okay Pup, I think you are referring to the way I voted Lenlong differently compared to everyone else. I think the purpose was more to defend my reasoning of having her as the lowest on my scum list. I wanted to defend my reasoning. Everyone has stated why she is likely scum so I was stating what I thought wasn't scummy of her and how she is beneficial to the team. (That is the difference between her and Vector. Lenglon's scumhunting methods feel more conductive in a team environment.) Lenglon has reacted to pressure in the same way I would whether I were scum or town. I have also already said that everyone here acts scummy so I just am putting lenglon lower on my priority list. If Lenglon is scum then she will likely be voted out, if she is town, her strong scumhunting methods will help us. The one thing is, you have been moseying around in the background Lenglon. I know you gave us an excuse but I think it's time you come back and give us an example of how strong you are in scum hunting.

---

I think that answers your questions as well Demdem but just in case.
It's not so much my playstyle that get's disrupted, it is simply the fact that I don't fair well with pressure no matter where it comes from. I have addressed this already. I already explained why I don't like Vector's playstyle, it is too attack based and it feels in no way helpful in a group environment. I like scumhunting when it is very analytical. Something that looks at what has happened, puts them in a row and everyone can see for themselves how true it is. You can put pressure over someone this way but it seems much more structured. It's like comparing an argument to an organized debate.

---

I hope that clears some things up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Dariush on May 24, 2013, 11:29:53 am

Come on guys, lynch someone already. It's so boring in deadchat. :(

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 11:49:43 am

Where do you get the facts from if you're not pushing people, Shinigami? While I won't argue that Vector's attack was very aggressive, it served to engage Lenglon in conversation and provide a large number of responses to analyze. It seems like your method would have us largely sitting around, drinking tea, and making polite conversation about the weather, with the occasional comparison of facts. Or is there a way to ask pointed questions that doesn't simultaneously apply too much pressure for your liking? It seems to me that only someone who knows who is scum would have the facts necessary to build a case without investigative questioning.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 11:58:21 am

It's like walking on a tight rope. There is a safe place but only just slightly. And no one is going to have everything going perfectly for them. This would be my perfect scumhunt. It's not going to happen though so I would like to see how close to this style I can get. I also said that pressure is fine because it is necessary, I just don't like pure solid aggression. Also, occasionally comparing facts and opinions? No. No no no no. Having a continuous comparison and continuously getting reads from others. If people are continuously giving blatant facts paired with their opinions you would quickly be able to see if they are biased or not and you can see if their points stand. This is similar to hat we do already but in a much more formal manner I suppose. Also yes, tea is quite nice.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 01:05:24 pm

Shinigami: Dem has a point. You've defended the 2 players under the most pressure from others, then say you don't like pressure that isn't analyitical. Okay, then what do you call what you've been doing to me? And may be misinterpritating this but you seem to be doing what you accused me of earlier right now.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 23, 2013, 11:06:13 pm

-snip-
-Ranger, defensive=scum. See Lenglon's post.
-Ranger, You are behaving in a "Wait for others to do something" manner. See Lenglon's post again.
-snip-

You accused me of not making my own opinion but just copying others. I understand you didn't have much time then so could you please explain to me (in your own words) your side of Lenglon's points as well? I've also started to (however slowly) not wait around for others anymore.

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

Demdemeh: You still have some unanswered questions from players. I'd quote them for you but i'm pressed for time. Please answer them for us.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 01:48:21 pm

As far as I can see, and I've searched back through the entire thread, I can't find a question I haven't recently answered (and even quoted) in my last couple of posts. If I'm incorrect, could someone please remind me of what I've missed?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 24, 2013, 02:26:10 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 11:28:53 am

It's like comparing an argument to an organized debate.

Any and all established structure can and will be exploited by the scumteam.

Quote from: Dariush on May 24, 2013, 11:29:53 am

Come on guys, lynch someone already. It's so boring in deadchat. :(

Wanna swap in?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 02:42:25 pm

Short post.
Vector, structure is difficult to take advantage of because it is quite easy to notice inconsistencies. If someone tries to mess with the facts or is very one sided it is an immediate dead give away. Obviously people are smarty that to just do some huge thing to stand out like that but the inconsistencies would keep adding up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 24, 2013, 02:49:34 pm

Yeah, see, you keep on assuming that the scum is going to play nice or be obvious.  Why didn't you win last game?  Just couldn't pick up on the obvious signs?

You're assuming that if you devise a perfect enough machine then you'll be able to weed out all scum and keep all townies without any real work.  You'll lynch off everyone that mixes things up for being "against the group."  But I'm going to tell you one more time: You don't get an ideal group of players.  You get what you get.  You have to learn to work with what you have, rather than wasting lynches on "oooh, I don't like him" or "aaah, I don't like her playstyle."  You can't afford to buddy up to Lenglon because she's "a better scumhunter."

Just look at the numbers.  Town has three lynches before they lose.  What will you do in a game with four scumhunters you don't like?  I promise you that the more vocal you are about it, the longer the scum will try to keep them alive.  Or, what will you do in a game where the person you like just happens to be scum, and you spend the better half of your time trying to defend them from townies you dislike?  Do you legitimately think that you're not going to get lynched?

Look, I'm not asking you to be nice.  I'm just asking you to be somewhat less stupid.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

In addition, griffinpup, I find it quite odd that you would fly your own flag of suspicion and pressure on the SS Shinigami_King, but at the same time attack me for the same. I can understand wanting my reasons, but your own questions and statements indicate that you're on the verge of voting for him (if you decide that I am cleaner), as well. Well, there are my reasons, and, as I stated earlier in this post, I also agree with yours.

You fail to mention WHY you find griffinpup's multiple attacks are odd.  Are you calling him out on a hypocrite or are you (as your second sentence indicates) just wishing he'd leave you alone and move on?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

I didn't push at the time because I was kind of embarassed at having made the mistake of mislabeling it to begin with. I felt that that error undermined my credibility with the issue, and was so frustrated that I had overlooked such a basic thing that I dropped it in favor of being self-centered.

So you folded under pressure and started playing defensively?  I don't know how assertive you are, but typically a "oops, my bad Shinigami.  Hey Lenglon, why are you hiding?" would be more productive than turtleing.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

I have my own opinions. I just want to know what other people think. As far as the slant goes, I think that's entirely in your own head. What language did I use, exactly, to assign value to either side? Wanting to know where you stand doesn't make it slanted, and from what I'm reading in the part you even quoted, what I wrote was a pure opinion question.

The problem isn't that you're taking a side in the debate: it's that you're forcing someone else to do so.  By doing that you remove some of the flexibility he has as an observer to analyze the debate and see all possible implications of it; but more damagingly it also allows the parties in the debate a chance to adjust to how the town is perceiving them. 

Truthfully this is part of the reason I don't like posting reads unless explicitly requested and for a good reason.  I feel it allows scum to go "Oh, okay I'm in the clear for now" or worse "Oh, so I'm drawing heat, better prepare a defense for the attacks that are going to come."  It's preventing this that makes reads take so much work to make, as you have to launch your attack right then to keep the element of surprise.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 24, 2013, 04:30:44 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 11:28:53 am

Okay Pup, I think you are referring to the way I voted Lenlong differently compared to everyone else.

... Not really...  I would prefer if you answered the questions that I asked you in the actual post.  I'll rewrite the most important ones here to make sure you get them.
What about Lenglon makes him scummy? 
What response do you have to the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, you have NEVER pressured him yet make excuses to not do so again? 
Why aren't you concerned with Lenglon if your read is scummy?
Why was his pathetic excuse at pressuring you so soft-balled?
There's more questions in my first post, but these I consider the most important.  Make sure you answer at least these.  Remember, I want YOUR answers, not someone else's.  And Lenglon, these questions aren't for you.  You may post a reply, but I'd prefer to hear from Shinigami first, so I get an uncontaminated answer.

Also, why didn't you answer any of my questions the first time?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 24, 2013, 05:16:39 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 01:05:24 pm

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

I'll address this first.

I simply don't feel that Dem is a truly valid target. Him not being around has been an issue, but that doesn't automatically mean he's scumtell. With all the pressure on him already, I would have let others keep on him and focus on other matters. This is my own reasoning on the subject.

To the second point, people have blamed you about not being aggressive enough. This is a relative opinion however. I personally haven't been bothered in the slightest on whether you are aggressive enough or not. Defensive... Aggressive... Both are adjectives that are a bit unreliable. You can have a Defensive Cop attempting to avoid being knocked out of the game early, and you can have an Aggressive scum trying to fit in with the town. At the end of the day you have to trust your gut.

I used the term, "sizing up" to illustrate the idea that you are not merely asking questions to determine scummicity, but rather character analysis. You seemed to want to know who I am, as opposed to where I am standing. This struck me as a bit odd, and still does strike me as odd.

Also, as I stated earlier, questions are good. Dig deep into me if you need to. Just remember that you reveal pieces of yourself along the way. The questions asked can be just as telling as the answers given. Quite simply, I don't trust your line of questioning, so I felt the need to address it strongly.

As you stated, questions are very, very important, and you were right in asking them. In fact, the only reason I brought you up at all in my answers is because you asked me to. You wanted to know who I suspected was scum, and I gave you a straight answer. I don't trust you. At all.

Now... If you think I am trying to get away from you, that's a bit laughable. I am not going anywhere. Ask anything of me, and I will not tell an outright lie.

I have no reason to. I deny the first accusal.

As to the second accusual, I render a deny once more.

Do you really think that I am attacking on grounds of perceived pressure? Come on now, you can do better than that. The questions you asked were light at best, but I thought there is something deeper and continue to think so, especially since your strategy of defense seems to be changing rapidly. At first you ignored me, and asked for public approval. Vector chided you on this, so you took her advice and demanded rejustification instead.  You turning around and voting for me now only reaffirms my distrust.

Ranger... You need to produce something a bit more solid if you want to shake me... I am going to ask you to prove why my denies are false, and why you thought I am attempting to deceive you. Take all the time you need, since it is the weekend. Talk to others, ask for advice if you need to, or generally post on things that aren't related to this question if you need time to think about it. I am a very patient man.

Give me a solid reason why I should trust you.

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 01:03:52 am

Quote from: Vector on May 23, 2013, 04:51:57 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 04:44:22 pm

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

I was honestly a bit suprised that he said there wasn't anything to be taken from my introduction. His tone seemed to be a bit dismissive, which bothered me. However... He's ultimately right. Being new to this forum, I am a wild card. One post isn't really enough to build a solid opinion on me unless I say something absolutely fantastic that warrants further scrutiny.

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

That... and questions like these can be used to either look for a slip-up or a sign to confirm your opinion on who is who. Or... change opinions.

Noncommital and vague; you could say any question serves that purpose.  What, specifically, were you going to do with any information you got from the range of expected answers?

Quote from: birdy51 on May 23, 2013, 10:20:14 pm

For instance, I am now going to go out on a limb and say that Lenglon is a townie. He answered the question much too frankly to be a piece of scum. But time will tell if this opinion will change.

Buddying, softballing, and... noncommital.  If you say someone is a townie, then you should mean it.  It's fine to say "I think she's a townie, because X Y and Z," but "She is town.  I may change my opinion later" is just absurd.

Seriously?  "This is what I think of birdy from his single post" is enough to make you think that she's town?  What would it take to make you think that someone is scum?


Also... didn't you play in Not-So-Beginner's Mafia 3 a few years back?  I think I replaced in for you.  You were playing scum.

It is one of my many talents, thank you!

If someone is going to offer an opinion on me, I would prefer it be a strong one. Perhaps its a sense of parnoia, but I like seeing where people stand. It gives me a chance to mount a proper fight. However, the fight never came with Lenglon. She quite clearly did not have an opinion of me. Now, I would suspect that a member of team scum would have offered something one way or another in an attempt to either assuage my curiousity or assault me for it.

Lenglon suprised me by offering a third answer that I wasn't quite expecting. That was sticking to her guns on the idea that she really didn't have any opinion, and that my post was mostly flavorless. Her answer struck me as an honest one, and I have already stated that I appreciate covering these kinds of matters in the light of day. Therefore, I'm just not getting scum vibes from Lenglon. Her uncertainty shows in her post, and that's not something you fake. Scum would have no reason to be uncertain, as they already know who I am.

If you wish to me to elaborate more on this, just ask, but I need to continue on.

Let me first say that you are right. If I am going to say something, I may as well make it on a strong foot. I didn't supply enough reasoning for my opinion of Lenglon.

However, I obviously do have an opinion on who is scum. My scum evaluations lie on the idea whether a character is acting suspiciously or abnormally. RangerCado is on the receiving end of that. You are the receiving end of another such evaluation. For instance, you do not threaten me. You've stated several times that you wanted others to take initiative in the scum hunt due to being an IC. However, no one was attacking me as of yet... Just vague opinions.

Believe it or not, I appreciate the gesture of your questioning, as I feel your digging is also a way to discover my weaknesses, so I can build upon them and learn to guard against them. For instance, you've caught onto my tendancy to use a passive voice. I'm not always good at using a solid voice; one that speaks with authority. In fact, I've had to adopt one to make myself seem a bit stronger than I really am. I knew this going in, but the focus of my arguement was on RangerCado, the one place where I absolutely cannot show weakness. This caused me not be as strong when justifying my claim on Lenglon. It was very, very wishy-washy to say the least.

So, probe further. I want to know where I am weak.

As to your last question Vector, I am afraid you have the wrong person. I only joined this forum about a less than a year ago! However, I must ask... Is the fact that I remind of you of him a good thing or a bad thing?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 24, 2013, 05:25:39 pm

You already sound much better.  Good.  However, I'll add that your use of ellipses makes you sound like you're sort of trailing off most of the time, which "sounds" a bit wishy-washy.  Keep on thinking about how you express yourself, and I'm sure you'll do a good job here.

I'll ask you more questions in a bit; I'm just taking a bit of time off from cleaning my room.  As far as that other question... haha.  The person I thought was you left in a hurry and was on the verge of being lynched, so I spent a very busy 24 hours trying and failing to save the last member of the scumteam (me).  I was sort of hoping that she'd be back.  You have a sort of similar voice.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 24, 2013, 05:44:45 pm

just popping in to let you know that today i've been unusually busy, and still will be for several more hours. sorry about the delay.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 09:00:15 pm

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 10:51:38 pm

I disagree cado. Paranoia is natural (I have it) to some extent because everyone here is in a position where the scum trying to kill you could be everyone.

---

Pup- Umm, I hope it's okay with you if I take some time over the weekend for your questions. I'll cover what I can now but I've been attacked multiple times for these same reasons so I would like to form a kind of final product of my defense.
I "didn't answer any of your questions the first time" because I thought I addressed them all, though indirectly, in my last post directed to you.

I don't know why her pressure attempt was soft-balled. You would have to ask her though my guess is that she might have been thankful for me protecting her. I don't know though.

I addressed why I'm not as concerned about Lenglon. Don't get me wrong, if someone strikes me as scummy I will be at least a bit concerned. I believe that her scumhunting methods are capable of helping us out in the long run. This makes it worth the while to keep her around if we aren't sure.

I have in fact pressured her, just very poorly. I will look over the weekend to try to find where, deal?

The Lenglon is scummy topic is something else that I want to take my time with. I want to gather enough info to make a solid read. To do this I want to read through the whole thread and pick out inconsistencies. The major thing is how weak she is playing right now. From meta game I can say that she was a very active and strong player and that isn't showing in this game which is suspicious.

Hope that covers mostly everything.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 24, 2013, 11:00:29 pm

Thanks for your reply Shinigami.  I'm looking forward to what you can dig up over the weekend.  :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 24, 2013, 11:35:04 pm

Today was exhausting, but I owe you guys a post. i'll see what I can throw together, sorry for the delay.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:33:47 am

Well, lemmie see. I've said my piece regarding ranger, and he's given his responses. I dont like them, but I dont think either of us have anything to add on the matter, so it's time for me to move on.

Ford: What's up? you disappeared on us all of a sudden, what happened? and should we expect you to be inactive this weekend again?

Vector: How do you suggest handling the situation I'm in reagarding my read of you? currently I think that if you're scum, I'm only going to be able to be sure of it around LYLO, and that it will be due more to process of elimination than an actual read of you. I do not like this state of affairs, but am reasonably certain that if you are scum, you wont be making the kind of slips that I could catch you in.

Birdy: In the previous BM, Shinigami and I were put in a difficult situation and guessed wrongly, and I would like to know what you would have done in the same one. It was MYLO, and there was a pair of doctor claims being made by the two scummiest players left in the game (who were voting each other). Both of them had been lurking, one was an IC, and was giving off very few reads, even when everyone else was pressuring him. the other was not an IC, and panicked when Shinigami and I switched our pressure over to him. how would you have resolved which one was the last scum?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 01:04:01 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:33:47 am

Vector: How do you suggest handling the situation I'm in reagarding my read of you? currently I think that if you're scum, I'm only going to be able to be sure of it around LYLO, and that it will be due more to process of elimination than an actual read of you. I do not like this state of affairs, but am reasonably certain that if you are scum, you wont be making the kind of slips that I could catch you in.

To be honest, when I have a player I'm totally unsure of I do process of elimination as well--the key is to realize that that's necessary and get your reads ASAP.  But otherwise, ask any questions you can think of that might be relevant.  I think that in these sorts of situations, the important thing is to not be worried too much about annoying people or whatever.  Don't doubt yourself too much.  Just go for it, until you feel confident.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 01:16:35 am

Well, if stupid questions are acceptable, I might as well get this one out of the way.

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 01:03:52 am

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

Vector: Was that a compliment or sarcasm? could you explain what you were saying here in more detail?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 01:29:51 am

... i just softballed that question with the "stupid questions" preamble didn't I?

darn it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 01:50:24 am

That was sarcasm.  I was saying that she was contradicting herself.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 09:25:29 am

Lenglon, Shingami keeps talking about your 'great' scumhunting ability, and that it's 'capable of helping us out in the long run.'
 do you think that you have demonstrated strong scumhunting methods so far in this game?  If not, why not?
Do you agree with Shinigami's assessment of you abilities?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 09:37:03 am

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 09:00:15 pm

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

I am afraid you've left a very minimal impression on me with this argument. While you answered my questions, you did so softly. You call me paranoid. I call you afraid of stepping up to the plate. Your answers to my questions are evasive and vague, with minor contraditions. For instance, you say I have an open, but paranoid mind on the same. Those are two adjectives that do not lend themselves to one another. You're struggling to find a way to defend yourself and "adapt" as you call it, which I take as a negative sign.

You also say combine "questions" with the word "attack". A question is only an attack when it forces the one answering into an uncomfortable place. You held me at cookie-point, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. The only reason I became suspicious at all was due to the nature of the questions, as opposed to the questions asked. Your questions were soft enough to the point where they raised suspicions on the account that I felt they were too weak to have been asked by a townie.


I'm going to try to take some time and start the preparations a final arguement. Expect it before the fall of Night.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:33:47 am

Birdy: In the previous BM, Shinigami and I were put in a difficult situation and guessed wrongly, and I would like to know what you would have done in the same one. It was MYLO, and there was a pair of doctor claims being made by the two scummiest players left in the game (who were voting each other). Both of them had been lurking, one was an IC, and was giving off very few reads, even when everyone else was pressuring him. the other was not an IC, and panicked when Shinigami and I switched our pressure over to him. how would you have resolved which one was the last scum?

I don't think I would have done much different in your place. I would have resolved the situation in the same way you guys did. For the sake of clarity, I am just going to use the names of the players while answering this question. Borno, the non-IC gave me suspicious vibes, which were tragically misplaced. Borno was desperate, and rightfully so being the real doctor.

There were only a few signs that pointed to Deathsword, the IC, which was covered up by Borno's arguements. For instance he completely disappeared and refused to give justification as to why. He also never produced anything terribly solid against Borno. If it weren't for the Last Day scramble, his arguments would have been passed off as paper thin.

The only thing you and Shingami could have done is to have deadlocked the vote, potentially cutting down the pool of players from 4 to 3 after the night kill, forcing Deathsword to justify himself, and giving Borno some air to breathe and calm down. That would have been the ideal answer to the situation, but it was also mutually understood the game had gone on long enough.

At the end of the day, I think I would have made the very same fatal errors that you both made.

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 01:50:24 am

That was sarcasm.  I was saying that she was contradicting herself.

Himself*. I am actually a man.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:27:09 am

So, Demdemeh, if I could kind of wrap up your whole argument about your bad play before, it was just that?  You were just playing poorly, acting defensively, and not knowing how to push, and doing this not because  you were scum, but because you were merely inexperienced and, for lack of a better word, bad?  You've now improved your play substantially, and I do accept this argument for now.
Unvote

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:30:10 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 09:25:29 am

Lenglon, Shingami keeps talking about your 'great' scumhunting ability, and that it's 'capable of helping us out in the long run.'
 do you think that you have demonstrated strong scumhunting methods so far in this game?  If not, why not?

I'm not certain how strong my scumhunting has been this game. I don't feel that I am good at judging myself without bias. I think my scumhunting was weak at the start for the same reasons that I took that break earlier, since then I've done my best to keep my actions more solid, and I think i'm doing better, but I dont know how much better.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 09:25:29 am

Do you agree with Shinigami's assessment of you abilities?

not really. I've done a lot of reading but am very badly lacking in practice. most of what I know is pure theory, book-learning if you will. I hope to improve as the game goes on. part of the problem that I have right now is there's enough unknown that process of elimination style techniques aren't viable. This is my first Day 1, and I'm still learning a lot about it. I think my play will improve as the game goes on, and there are fewer unknowns.

---

Birdy: I was surprised by one thing in your analysis. you suggested that we could have waited a day to reduce the situation from MYLO to LYLO. however, we knew the last mafia was one of two players, who were making competing doctor claims. waiting a night would have done nothing from my understanding of the situation, because we had assigned each doctor a target to use their protect on. if the mafia killed anyone at night, we would have known which one was the scum, which meant that we were locked into an endless MYLO because the scum would simply no-kill. In your response you made it clear you had read the game in question, since you filled in borno and deathsword's names, and mentioned your personal reads of the people involved, so I am curious why you thought waiting a night could have changed anything.

Vector: What was the most difficult mafia game you have ever been in and why?

Shinigami: I dont see where you responded to this post by vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 02:49:34 pm

Yeah, see, you keep on assuming that the scum is going to play nice or be obvious.  Why didn't you win last game?  Just couldn't pick up on the obvious signs?

You're assuming that if you devise a perfect enough machine then you'll be able to weed out all scum and keep all townies without any real work.  You'll lynch off everyone that mixes things up for being "against the group."  But I'm going to tell you one more time: You don't get an ideal group of players.  You get what you get.  You have to learn to work with what you have, rather than wasting lynches on "oooh, I don't like him" or "aaah, I don't like her playstyle."  You can't afford to buddy up to Lenglon because she's "a better scumhunter."

Just look at the numbers.  Town has three lynches before they lose.  What will you do in a game with four scumhunters you don't like?  I promise you that the more vocal you are about it, the longer the scum will try to keep them alive.  Or, what will you do in a game where the person you like just happens to be scum, and you spend the better half of your time trying to defend them from townies you dislike?  Do you legitimately think that you're not going to get lynched?

Look, I'm not asking you to be nice.  I'm just asking you to be somewhat less stupid.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 02:35:18 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:30:10 pm

Birdy: I was surprised by one thing in your analysis. you suggested that we could have waited a day to reduce the situation from MYLO to LYLO. however, we knew the last mafia was one of two players, who were making competing doctor claims. waiting a night would have done nothing from my understanding of the situation, because we had assigned each doctor a target to use their protect on. if the mafia killed anyone at night, we would have known which one was the scum, which meant that we were locked into an endless MYLO because the scum would simply no-kill. In your response you made it clear you had read the game in question, since you filled in borno and deathsword's names, and mentioned your personal reads of the people involved, so I am curious why you thought waiting a night could have changed anything.

That I did. I didn't know you had assigned the doctors to protect someone as to keep track of who is who, so I was a bit oblivious to that detail. I had kept track of the game a little bit, but only paid attention at the endgame as it was unfolding.

Anyways, to answer your question, a delay is just that, a delay. I am not averse to allowing time to run on in ordr to establish things. Taking more time to think and consider the options could have been beneficial in that situation. But that is a perfect enviroment setting. At the time of the game, I did not know Deathsword was scum, and as I had said I would have followed your lead in lynching Borno. It's only after the fact that I wonder if more time would have helped.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 02:57:17 pm

Still waiting for people to reply to me...

---

Shinigami: 
While doing the reread for pup, please take the time to answer Vector's and my questions.

---

Vector and Ford:

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 05:25:39 pm

I'll ask you [birdy] more questions in a bit; I'm just taking a bit of time off from cleaning my room.

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 23, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.

Are you planning on following through with these or did you just say these to appear busy?
It seems like you're saying this to buy time while waiting for someone else to slip up so you can act as "instructor" and keep active.

I'm pretty sure the scum team isn't BOTH of you; as that would make our task nearly impossible due to the experience gap.  Same question to both of you though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 03:19:37 pm

Ok Griffy, will do. I would appreciate any specific questions though because you may have noticed that I like to answer multiple questions in one statement. So if there is anything specifically I missed that you want me to answer fully and directly I will just give me the word, but I will keep an eye out for questions that I haven't answered or have not answered adequately.

Lenlon, I actually thought I answered that post (indirectly). If I have not I actually meant to. One second, I'll do a little bit of review there and I will answer.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 03:33:07 pm

Huh, guess I didn't, sorry for the double post.

Quote

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 02:49:34 pm
Yeah, see, you keep on assuming that the scum is going to play nice or be obvious.  Why didn't you win last game?  Just couldn't pick up on the obvious signs?

You're assuming that if you devise a perfect enough machine then you'll be able to weed out all scum and keep all townies without any real work.  You'll lynch off everyone that mixes things up for being "against the group."  But I'm going to tell you one more time: You don't get an ideal group of players.  You get what you get.  You have to learn to work with what you have, rather than wasting lynches on "oooh, I don't like him" or "aaah, I don't like her playstyle."  You can't afford to buddy up to Lenglon because she's "a better scumhunter."

Just look at the numbers.  Town has three lynches before they lose.  What will you do in a game with four scumhunters you don't like?  I promise you that the more vocal you are about it, the longer the scum will try to keep them alive.  Or, what will you do in a game where the person you like just happens to be scum, and you spend the better half of your time trying to defend them from townies you dislike?  Do you legitimately think that you're not going to get lynched?

Look, I'm not asking you to be nice.  I'm just asking you to be somewhat less stupid.

I think the original question or at least the conversation referred to my perfect scum hunt. It is obvious that this would never work because we are all human. (Why do you think we have internet trolls.) My perfect scumhunt would have obedient people doing just as they should and I would have a perfect machine to do the weeding for me. Sad to say, it looks like that is impossible and I'll have to get on my hands and knees to do the weeding myself. Take note that this is my perfect scumhunt but not my perfect game. If everything were so perfect the game would no longer have the difficulty or the fun it possesses.

Vector, we get to lynch someone three times but others are removed from the equation each night (as long as no power roles intervene). This changes your later point exponentially. Also, I simply defended someone who I thought was being attacked unfairly. I have changed my opinion since griffy's post about town etiquette.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 03:47:58 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 03:33:07 pm

Vector, we get to lynch someone three times but others are removed from the equation each night (as long as no power roles intervene). This changes your later point exponentially. Also, I simply defended someone who I thought was being attacked unfairly. I have changed my opinion since griffy's post about town etiquette.

I'll just say this: one of these games Lenglon is going to be scum, and you are going to learn a hard lesson about white-knighting.

And remember--if you're right, then why on earth would the scumteam try to help you?  "Whatever you want" needs to be the environment that's hardest for scum to thrive in.  Polite and friendly is, frankly, easier.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 25, 2013, 12:30:10 pm

Vector: What was the most difficult mafia game you have ever been in and why?

I don't know where to start, to be honest.  I always feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants.

Beginner's Mafia (I) nearly gave me a heart attack (and a phobia of Webadict; I had to convince him that I was lurking and passive because I was naturally shy and unassuming); in Rysith's Semi-Bastard I had to pretend to give up in order to win the game, and mimic the mod's voice; BYOR: P lasted like half a year or something and had a lot of third-party roles with really crazy stuff going on.  The hardest games for me are ones where you have to suddenly think outside of the box and convince people to do things that you know--and, often, they know--is very much not in their best interest.

Most of the games in the Notable Games Archive were Hard Games for everyone involved.  You might enjoy a readthrough.

(Reminder to self--need to update...)

---

Hey Captain Ford, you seem to have a deathwish.  Ready?  I already smell your graveyard's cypress on the wind.

Because seriously man, you're playing as scummy as I've ever seen you.  Inactive, sullen, not exactly fecund with the ideas, giving absolutely no advice, making no attacks, disseminating no opinions.  Usually you're loud and passionate, and defending all the wrong people.  But you've got a style, at least.  Now you seem frozen and incapable.  You've made, what, three posts in the past week?  Just sort of stuck your vote on someone and left it there?  Something like that.

In any case, you're being quiet and I have a very hard time believing you'd sign up for this responsibility and lurk your fucking face off if operating as an honest sort of fellow.

So that's the case: wake up and look lively, or die, scumbucket.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 05:13:07 pm

Why do people keep ignoring me?

---

Vector:
I know it was focused on both you and Ford, but I did ask you a question that I'd like an answer to:

Are you planning on following through with your pressure on Birdy, or are you satisfied with your read on him for the time being?

I ask because you seem to be satisfied, but you indicated that you weren't here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Vector on May 24, 2013, 05:25:39 pm

You already sound much better.  Good.  However, I'll add that your use of ellipses makes you sound like you're sort of trailing off most of the time, which "sounds" a bit wishy-washy.  Keep on thinking about how you express yourself, and I'm sure you'll do a good job here.

I'll ask you more questions in a bit; I'm just taking a bit of time off from cleaning my room.  As far as that other question... haha.  The person I thought was you left in a hurry and was on the verge of being lynched, so I spent a very busy 24 hours trying and failing to save the last member of the scumteam (me).  I was sort of hoping that she'd be back.  You have a sort of similar voice.

---

Shinigami:

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 03:19:37 pm

Ok Griffy, will do. I would appreciate any specific questions though because you may have noticed that I like to answer multiple questions in one statement. So if there is anything specifically I missed that you want me to answer fully and directly I will just give me the word, but I will keep an eye out for questions that I haven't answered or have not answered adequately.

This one for now:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 23, 2013, 11:13:48 pm

Hmm... I'm still not sure what post you were referring to when you said  I'd "accused you of not scumhunting." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261392#msg4261392)  When you get a chance could you quote the one you were thinking of?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 05:50:41 pm

Oh, right.

I'm satisfied enough.  I was going to ask more questions, but then birdy started sounding better.  I was thinking "bluh bluh everyone sort of sounds townish wat do, do I seriously have to go do a reread now and start kicking sand" but then I realized that there was indeed someone I was less certain of and didn't have an excuse for being passive and soft-balling.  Hence Ford.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:20:22 pm

Sigh, i didn't want to do this but its come down to it. If i wait, theres no telling if it'll be too late or not.

To help the Town, I am the Cop. Cue your questions.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:21:45 pm

RangerCado.

There is no cop role in this game.  Burn in hell.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:23:07 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:21:45 pm

RangerCado.

There is no cop role in this game.  Burn in hell.

Check page one Vector, its unlike you to call that so quickly without checking.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

Potential Roles (Experimental (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536) roles in *)

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Doctor (Town) - A doctor may choose a single player to protect during the night, preventing that player from being nightkilled.
*Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Roleblocker (Mafia) - A roleblocker may choose a single player to block, preventing that player from performing his action.
Godfather (Mafia) - A godfather appears town to Cop inspections.
*Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:29:25 pm

Ranger:

I know you attempt ruses, but seriously: what are you trying to achieve with this claim?

---

Vector:
I'm satisfied with your answer for now, and don't have anything else I can try and improve my read on you with...

How does one "kick sand"?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:35:06 pm

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:20:22 pm

Sigh, i didn't want to do this but its come down to it. If i wait, theres no telling if it'll be too late or not.

To help the Town, I am the Cop. Cue your questions.

Further questions:
Too late? This is day one. YOU HAVEN'T USED YOUR ABILITY YET!
What makes you think "It's come down to this"?
How do you expect this to help us?

Also a note: if the most likely question is "What the hell dude?" you probably shouldn't do it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:36:18 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:29:25 pm

Vector:
I'm satisfied with your answer for now, and don't have anything else I can try and improve my read on you with...

How does one "kick sand"?

Find whatever's most scummy and start a fight so big that it's impossible to ignore.  It's basically a second RVS, but you use data you already have to create some pyrotechnics.  It's something to be done when the town is lagging and nothing is happening.  Pick a fight.  Get a read.  Pay attention to the way everyone else is falling and what they have to say.

I say "kicking sand" because it usually feels pretty juvenile, but I've never found anything that works better when the energy is dead.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:35:06 pm

Also a note: if the most likely question is "What the hell dude?" you probably shouldn't do it.

Yeah, this one.  My best guess is that Cado's lying again, because he didn't learn enough of his lesson from last game.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:39:15 pm

Shinigami will be too stubborn to change his vote from me unless someone is blantanly scummy.

Lenglon doesn't look like she's about to change her vote anytime soon.

And Birdy has a bad feeling about me everytime i post, thinking i must have some deeper meaning behind every question.

With Dem only at 1 vote now i can't last minute tie it and try and deal with the rebound day 2. If i die day 1, it will be as if i was a regular townie since i would have no night data. If this prevents a mislynch, even if i'm NKed, I will have fulfilled my goal. The only way to prove my claim would be to either outright die and flip Cop, or if i find a mafia player tonight. I'm taking a risk here in the hopes that it prevents town losing a power role. Theres my reasons.

PPE: And you guys are gonna kill me anyway... Well, i tried.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

You had only three votes on you, you moron, and most of those were there because you haven't been playing your best and because there weren't any scummier targets.  Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

If you're town, then you put in an effort to clear yourself.  And you put in an effort to find the scum.  If you're going to be lynched, you go down fighting.  Because you've done none of these, it's just about impossible to believe your claim.

Yergh.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 06:46:13 pm

Wow.  Worst timing for a role reveal ever.  I'll post my opinion later, but right now... WOW

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 06:46:52 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:20:22 pm

Sigh, i didn't want to do this but its come down to it. If i wait, theres no telling if it'll be too late or not.

To help the Town, I am the Cop. Cue your questions.

Well. I suppose I can stop working on my "DIE SCUM!!!" essay now...

I was not expecting my suspicions were going to amount to this. That is a very, very big claim my good man. I'm probably one of the bigger reasons to have caused this claim, so I won't shy away from asking a question or two now.

Ranger, let's play the game where we assume you are telling the truth. What made you think I could not be assauged from my suspicions?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:52:25 pm

Birdy: Everytime i've addressed you, you've been fully against me. You say you think theres some hidden meaning behind everything i ask you, you think that assessing your knowledge and character makes me scummy, and you've given no indication of moving from your position. Its like everyone believes i must be lieing through my teeth again, even before this claim.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:53:55 pm

Birdy has only talked to you a couple of times.  Hell, Birdy has only posted a couple of times.  Large law of small numbers.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 07:04:59 pm

Let's think rationally from this point, guys.  There's two possibilities.  Either he's a...
Stupid Mafia or a Stupid Cop.
We should work out each scenario and find out what's the best thing to do in each of them.  I'll post my opinions of what to do in a bit.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 07:32:40 pm

Yes Vector, but most of my posts did deal rather heavily with him. You'll note that he's been a bit of a private obsession for me.

Griffinpup is right on this one this one though.

Unvote.

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

I just didn't quite realize that there could be reasons that a Townie would have to deceive a fellow...


Regardless, let's get the scenarios out on the table.

If RangerCado is scum:

A. We lynch him now, and verify when his job flips.
B. We let him live and keep tabs on him. If we are made suspicious again, we can always lynch him later. He's

If RangerCado is a Cop:

A. We lynch him anyways, and verify on the job flip. He's marked himself for the night kill.
B. We don't kill him, and have the jailer protect him/ inhibit him from doing anything, hopefully blocking one the Night kill at the cost of him not getting information.
C. We don't kill him and don't protect him. Gives him a chance to do research and do something to prove that he's not blowing hot air. On the other hand, this leaves him open for a night kill. If he's night killed, we can reasonably assume he's the cop anyways.


My own gut feeling is leaning towards the idea he is a Cop... No member of the Mafia would be so stupid as to fakeclaim this early. It would be Refuge in Audacity to the extreme. Even if he does live through this night, he's permanantly on our radar. Rather, it is my firm belief that RangerCado is an extremely foolish Cop who's now forced our Jailer into a game of WIFOM with Team Scum.

That's my first perspective on this situation anyways.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 07:53:33 pm

Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario:
This scenario has the obvious drawback of lynching the cop if Cado is telling the truth.  Unless we can't find another alternative, we shouldn't do this.

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

PPE

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 08:04:23 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 07:32:40 pm

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

This is tunneling.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 08:16:25 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 08:04:23 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 07:32:40 pm

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

This is tunneling.

Yes. It is. I won't deny it. He had attracted my suspicions, and has since suffered from them.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 08:18:18 pm

Why did you decide to tunnel?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 08:41:58 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 07:53:33 pm

Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario:
This scenario has the obvious drawback of lynching the cop if Cado is telling the truth.  Unless we can't find another alternative, we shouldn't do this.

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

PPE

So it essentially comes down to WIFOM now or WIFOM later.  The problem is; if he messes up his guess on whether or not the jail-keeper targets him, then the jail-keeper needs to claim in order to force a lynch.  Now yes, the jail-keeper could keep quiet, but this shifts us back into the same position we are now: we have no way to verify his claim.

Now personally, I'm against forcing two of our power roles into the open for town to pick off.  This means our options boil down to lightening up on him and see if he becomes less scummy as the game progresses, or not, and lynching him for a fool.

I've no qualms with the latter path.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 08:45:03 pm

Overexcitement. When RangerCado seemed a bit fishy to me, I pushed the advantage. Small things began to add up that just didn't sit right with me. He was being evasive. This didn't sit right with me. So I increased the pressure.

When he turned and voted for me, I took that as the final sign that there is something more. I gave him a what I considered a final gambit and asked him to take his time with it, as I felt it was vital that he give me a straight answer. He responded in about four hours, failing to convince me. I considered that the final straw to start building the lynch case proper. I'll quote this all so you don't have go back and reread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What led to the final gambit:

Quote from: birdy51 on May 24, 2013, 05:16:39 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 01:05:24 pm

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

I'll address this first.

I simply don't feel that Dem is a truly valid target. Him not being around has been an issue, but that doesn't automatically mean he's scumtell. With all the pressure on him already, I would have let others keep on him and focus on other matters. This is my own reasoning on the subject.

To the second point, people have blamed you about not being aggressive enough. This is a relative opinion however. I personally haven't been bothered in the slightest on whether you are aggressive enough or not. Defensive... Aggressive... Both are adjectives that are a bit unreliable. You can have a Defensive Cop attempting to avoid being knocked out of the game early, and you can have an Aggressive scum trying to fit in with the town. At the end of the day you have to trust your gut.

I used the term, "sizing up" to illustrate the idea that you are not merely asking questions to determine scummicity, but rather character analysis. You seemed to want to know who I am, as opposed to where I am standing. This struck me as a bit odd, and still does strike me as odd.

Also, as I stated earlier, questions are good. Dig deep into me if you need to. Just remember that you reveal pieces of yourself along the way. The questions asked can be just as telling as the answers given. Quite simply, I don't trust your line of questioning, so I felt the need to address it strongly.

As you stated, questions are very, very important, and you were right in asking them. In fact, the only reason I brought you up at all in my answers is because you asked me to. You wanted to know who I suspected was scum, and I gave you a straight answer. I don't trust you. At all.

Now... If you think I am trying to get away from you, that's a bit laughable. I am not going anywhere. Ask anything of me, and I will not tell an outright lie.

I have no reason to. I deny the first accusal.

As to the second accusual, I render a deny once more.

Do you really think that I am attacking on grounds of perceived pressure? Come on now, you can do better than that. The questions you asked were light at best, but I thought there is something deeper and continue to think so, especially since your strategy of defense seems to be changing rapidly. At first you ignored me, and asked for public approval. Vector chided you on this, so you took her advice and demanded rejustification instead.  You turning around and voting for me now only reaffirms my distrust.

Ranger... You need to produce something a bit more solid if you want to shake me... I am going to ask you to prove why my denies are false, and why you thought I am attempting to deceive you. Take all the time you need, since it is the weekend. Talk to others, ask for advice if you need to, or generally post on things that aren't related to this question if you need time to think about it. I am a very patient man.

Give me a solid reason why I should trust you.

Ranger's Response:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 09:00:15 pm

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

My last post regarding the conflict:

Quote from: birdy51 on May 25, 2013, 09:37:03 am

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2013, 09:00:15 pm

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

I am afraid you've left a very minimal impression on me with this argument. While you answered my questions, you did so softly. You call me paranoid. I call you afraid of stepping up to the plate. Your answers to my questions are evasive and vague, with minor contraditions. For instance, you say I have an open, but paranoid mind on the same. Those are two adjectives that do not lend themselves to one another. You're struggling to find a way to defend yourself and "adapt" as you call it, which I take as a negative sign.

You also say combine "questions" with the word "attack". A question is only an attack when it forces the one answering into an uncomfortable place. You held me at cookie-point, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. The only reason I became suspicious at all was due to the nature of the questions, as opposed to the questions asked. Your questions were soft enough to the point where they raised suspicions on the account that I felt they were too weak to have been asked by a townie.


I'm going to try to take some time and start the preparations a final arguement. Expect it before the fall of Night.

Ultimately, I was right in thinking that something was there, so I don't entirely regret my tunneling spree. RangerCado did have something to hide. I just made the mistake of tunneling a character who's identity needed to stay hidden.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 08:56:19 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 08:41:58 pm

Now personally, I'm against forcing two of our power roles into the open for town to pick off.

Oh my.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 09:58:31 pm

Ranger. You are a fool. You realize with a tiny bit of effort you probably would have been fine right? All you needed to do was work for your freedom (I know, it is a crazy idea) but instead you tried taking the easy way out. I'm keeping my vote on you because you look scummy.

Everyone, as said before, if we try to strategize and use the jailer the scum could just no-kill or the jailer would have to reveal them self. (That or some other dumb thing.) Why waste the jailers time protecting someone already deamed as scummy when they can protect someone who is universally declared not scum. I think everyone is scummy but Pup and Vector are both good candidates. All of you people seem to like them.

I am already known for a kind of Lynch all idiots mentality or from my earlier case Lynch all people I don't like. Still, I'll leave the rest to you because my thinking is pretty straight forward here.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 09:58:31 pm

*Facepalm* Stupid typo; I really should stop rushing off posts before I need to be elsewhere doing other things.

Obviously I meant "...out in the scum to pick off".  Although I'd be against forcing our power roles out into public eye if it caused bandwagons; considering the caution of some of the others, this is probably not a scenario we need to be concerned about.

Anyway, back to rushing off to elsewhere.  I should be back in less than an hour though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 10:01:18 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 09:58:31 pm

*Facepalm* Stupid typo; I really should stop rushing off posts before I need to be elsewhere doing other things.

Uh-huh.  Nice slip, scumbucket.  I'll be watching you very closely.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 25, 2013, 09:58:31 pm

I'm keeping my vote on you because you look scummy.

Your business is to find people who are scummy, not folks who look scummy, Shinigami_King.  Keep on working at it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

I did not say that defending me was good for town. I said that it was a form of reverse psychology, especially since he had me in his scum list. I was expressing my appreciation a bit wryly, and should have been more clear about that. In addition, since I have publicly declared in the past that I suspect that Shinigami is scum, it should be a given that I want more pressure on him. Why do you think I should feel any other way?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

In addition, griffinpup, I find it quite odd that you would fly your own flag of suspicion and pressure on the SS Shinigami_King, but at the same time attack me for the same. I can understand wanting my reasons, but your own questions and statements indicate that you're on the verge of voting for him (if you decide that I am cleaner), as well. Well, there are my reasons, and, as I stated earlier in this post, I also agree with yours.

You fail to mention WHY you find griffinpup's multiple attacks are odd.  Are you calling him out on a hypocrite or are you (as your second sentence indicates) just wishing he'd leave you alone and move on?

I think that I mentioned exactly what I found odd. It wasn’t that he was attacking Shinigami, but that he was attacking ME for attacking Shinigami, and very closely to his own attack. I was indicating a level of hypocrisy that I found suspicious, and I also think that I was very clear in pointing that out. You seem to have deliberately missed the point I was trying to make, and I think you’re trying to twist my own words into a whole new meaning. I don’t appreciate that, Griffionday. Is there some reason you’re so touchy about pup being addressed so pointedly?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

I didn't push at the time because I was kind of embarassed at having made the mistake of mislabeling it to begin with. I felt that that error undermined my credibility with the issue, and was so frustrated that I had overlooked such a basic thing that I dropped it in favor of being self-centered.

So you folded under pressure and started playing defensively?  I don't know how assertive you are, but typically a "oops, my bad Shinigami.  Hey Lenglon, why are you hiding?" would be more productive than turtleing.

I’m actually not that assertive in real life, and I also said that I’m new to this level of focus in a forum environment. I think that that is pretty evident in my earlier posts. I’m also beginning to adjust, and am growing more comfortable with a more assertive approach, as I think I’m displaying rather well, now. I admitted that my earlier actions weren’t very productive, and stated my reasons why. I’m not sure why you’re not satisfied with them, and frankly, I find it quite suspicious and annoying that you’re basically rephrasing my earlier statements as questions and turning them on me again. It seems like poor form, at the least; possibly even a scum tactic.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

I have my own opinions. I just want to know what other people think. As far as the slant goes, I think that's entirely in your own head. What language did I use, exactly, to assign value to either side? Wanting to know where you stand doesn't make it slanted, and from what I'm reading in the part you even quoted, what I wrote was a pure opinion question.

The problem isn't that you're taking a side in the debate: it's that you're forcing someone else to do so.  By doing that you remove some of the flexibility he has as an observer to analyze the debate and see all possible implications of it; but more damagingly it also allows the parties in the debate a chance to adjust to how the town is perceiving them. 

Truthfully this is part of the reason I don't like posting reads unless explicitly requested and for a good reason.  I feel it allows scum to go "Oh, okay I'm in the clear for now" or worse "Oh, so I'm drawing heat, better prepare a defense for the attacks that are going to come."  It's preventing this that makes reads take so much work to make, as you have to launch your attack right then to keep the element of surprise.

I appreciate your explanation for why you feel that’s poor form. Your reasons are understandable, and I will consider them next time I think to ask that sort of question. I won’t promise that I won’t decide to ask that sort of question in the future, but I now have a new perspective on the sort of information it provides, and the implications of having that public.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:27:09 am

So, Demdemeh, if I could kind of wrap up your whole argument about your bad play before, it was just that?  You were just playing poorly, acting defensively, and not knowing how to push, and doing this not because  you were scum, but because you were merely inexperienced and, for lack of a better word, bad?  You've now improved your play substantially, and I do accept this argument for now.
Unvote

Thank you for the accurate and concise paraphrasing, griffinpup. That is precisely what I was trying to say.

As far as this whole RangerCado development is concerned, the entire thing is WIFOM. Anything said publicly will alter the behavior of everyone in this scenario in an unpredictable way. We can say what we expect from every outcome, but that will only give the scum the chance to manipulate those expectations. What are the consequences of ignoring his claim? It's exactly as meaningful as everything else at this point, and I'd like to point out that there is even a mafia role cop in the same set of possibilities. So he could be correct, and still be scum. In fact, looking over the list, there is exactly one more chance for a mafia role cop to exist than there is for a town cop. So it could even be answer C: Stupid Mafia Cop. What does that do to the situation?

That last statement about town taking out the power roles just kind of clinches it for me, I think. RangerCado is the scum cop, and GDay is his godfather friend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:27:17 pm

I didn't think shinigami would change anyway. As for taking the easy way, I was really trying dude. May not be up to your standards, but i tried. I asked questions, went after Dem (however weak there) Then went for Birdy.

Dem: You do know theres no guarentee for a godfather right? It could be a roleblocker instead. For all we know there could be the Mafia Role Cop and a Regular Mafia only. The only one that seems guarunteed is the Role Cop judging from pre-game conversation.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:32:04 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:27:17 pm

Dem: You do know theres no guarentee for a godfather right? It could be a roleblocker instead. For all we know there could be the Mafia Role Cop and a Regular Mafia only. The only one that seems guarunteed is the Role Cop judging from pre-game conversation.

Yeah. You're right. I just glanced back again and noticed that, too. Which role does GDay have, Cado, since you're the cop?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

Dem: How should i know? I'm the town cop. Griff has a 22% chance of being mafia and some weird percentage i don't want to calculate of having a role as mafia so its possible he is a mafia power role. Its also possible hes the Jailer or the "real town cop" since you think i'm lying. The only way to know for sure, is to be mafia, or kill someone to flip them. Why the sudden interest in roles by the way? Possibly role-fishing here? Trying to find the jailer too?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:42:49 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

Why the sudden interest in roles by the way?

Umm...  I'd assume the sudden interest in roles stems from the fact that you just claimed cop.  I might be wrong though.  :-\  Frankly, I doubt it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:45:10 pm

meant mafia roles. I expect speculation over town ones right now.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:51:00 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:45:10 pm

meant mafia roles. I expect speculation over town ones right now.

Ok.  Where does the bad come in over speculation over mafia roles?  That doesn't exactly scream SCUMTELL at the moment.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:51:46 pm

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

Yeah, the speculation over mafia ones is pretty much from that same typo, and the same implication of your involvement with it. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Worst case scenario for town, you're telling the truth and either get lynched or nightkilled. Middle of the road, you're lying and are scum (because why would a vanilla townie fakeclaim a role? That would just make people MORE suspicious, as has been rather obvious). Best case scenario, you're telling the truth and survive the night, with useful information for town in the morning. Of course, I don't think we'll ever be able to actually trust you, simply because of how you came out, but c'est la vie.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 11:43:31 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 10:01:18 pm

Uh-huh.  Nice slip, scumbucket.  I'll be watching you very closely.

...Meaning you weren't already?  It's a bit odd that you'd be that cavalier about someone you claimed to find suspicious.

---

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I did not say that defending me was good for town. I said that it was a form of reverse psychology, especially since he had me in his scum list. I was expressing my appreciation a bit wryly, and should have been more clear about that. In addition, since I have publicly declared in the past that I suspect that Shinigami is scum, it should be a given that I want more pressure on him. Why do you think I should feel any other way?

Because you're not the one applying it.  Yes you're asking him questions, but the only ones with real pressure are your requoted ones from griffinpup  (Who you spend the post lashing out at.) 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I think that I mentioned exactly what I found odd. It wasn’t that he was attacking Shinigami, but that he was attacking ME for attacking Shinigami, and very closely to his own attack. I was indicating a level of hypocrisy that I found suspicious, and I also think that I was very clear in pointing that out. You seem to have deliberately missed the point I was trying to make, and I think you’re trying to twist my own words into a whole new meaning. I don’t appreciate that, Griffionday. Is there some reason you’re so touchy about pup being addressed so pointedly?

What I care about is the fact that YOU were being that pointy with no real reason. 

You had claimed that you were touchy because he was attacking you for attaking Shinigami; and I apologize for not beliveing that you meant that; but it makes absolutely no sense.  For one there is the fact that he WASN'T attacking you for attacking Shinigami; quite the reverse in fact, he said you had a point with your original post.  Then there's the fact that your cases are quite dissimilar; he was pressing Shinigami on his reads while you... were still on a vote about his being unable to think under pressure.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I admitted that my earlier actions weren’t very productive, and stated my reasons why. I’m not sure why you’re not satisfied with them, and frankly, I find it quite suspicious and annoying that you’re basically rephrasing my earlier statements as questions and turning them on me again. It seems like poor form, at the least; possibly even a scum tactic.

See above for as to why I'm not satisfied about your answers.  As to why I take your statements and question you about them; that's to make sure you know exactly what I'm reading you as saying, in the case that what you meant was something completely different.  I'm attacking you based on what I see you as having said; I want to be clear to you about what that is.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 25, 2013, 11:58:45 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 11:43:31 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 10:01:18 pm

Uh-huh.  Nice slip, scumbucket.  I'll be watching you very closely.

...Meaning you weren't already?  It's a bit odd that you'd be that cavalier about someone you claimed to find suspicious.

*shrug*

Previously, I didn't find you all that suspicious, but you made one of the slips I often almost make as scum.  So you've jumped a few places on my list.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:27:17 pm

I didn't think shinigami would change anyway. As for taking the easy way, I was really trying dude. May not be up to your standards, but i tried. I asked questions, went after Dem (however weak there) Then went for Birdy.

Okay, now I see the problem.  You haven't built yourself a lynchdar yet.

Bud, whatever your alignment is, you have two assignments:

a. better learning how to harass people and get information out of them
b. getting a better idea of how safe or unsafe you are, and not giving up until it's really the eleventh hour.  Don't Panic!


Heeeeey, Captain Ford.  I think your proteges need some hints as to how to play through this situation.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 11:43:31 pm

---

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I did not say that defending me was good for town. I said that it was a form of reverse psychology, especially since he had me in his scum list. I was expressing my appreciation a bit wryly, and should have been more clear about that. In addition, since I have publicly declared in the past that I suspect that Shinigami is scum, it should be a given that I want more pressure on him. Why do you think I should feel any other way?

Because you're not the one applying it.  Yes you're asking him questions, but the only ones with real pressure are your requoted ones from griffinpup  (Who you spend the post lashing out at.) 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I think that I mentioned exactly what I found odd. It wasn’t that he was attacking Shinigami, but that he was attacking ME for attacking Shinigami, and very closely to his own attack. I was indicating a level of hypocrisy that I found suspicious, and I also think that I was very clear in pointing that out. You seem to have deliberately missed the point I was trying to make, and I think you’re trying to twist my own words into a whole new meaning. I don’t appreciate that, Griffionday. Is there some reason you’re so touchy about pup being addressed so pointedly?

What I care about is the fact that YOU were being that pointy with no real reason. 

You had claimed that you were touchy because he was attacking you for attaking Shinigami; and I apologize for not beliveing that you meant that; but it makes absolutely no sense.  For one there is the fact that he WASN'T attacking you for attacking Shinigami; quite the reverse in fact, he said you had a point with your original post.  Then there's the fact that your cases are quite dissimilar; he was pressing Shinigami on his reads while you... were still on a vote about his being unable to think under pressure.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I admitted that my earlier actions weren’t very productive, and stated my reasons why. I’m not sure why you’re not satisfied with them, and frankly, I find it quite suspicious and annoying that you’re basically rephrasing my earlier statements as questions and turning them on me again. It seems like poor form, at the least; possibly even a scum tactic.

See above for as to why I'm not satisfied about your answers.  As to why I take your statements and question you about them; that's to make sure you know exactly what I'm reading you as saying, in the case that what you meant was something completely different.  I'm attacking you based on what I see you as having said; I want to be clear to you about what that is.

Isn't one of the major points to this game to unite town against a perceived member of the scum team and have him lynched? Should it matter to me that I'm not the one applying pressure to someone I believe is scum? I don't think it should. I think I should be glad to direct pressure where I feel it's due. And you've done quite the job of redirecting that suspicion from Shinigami, here, I think. As for my response to griffinpup, at the time his attack on me for my own suspicions against Shinigami was, I felt, a little over-the-top. My own response seemed to be actually a little lower-impact than the original attack. I think that it's obvious that one of the things I've learned so far is that you have to be a little pointy to get your point across. Vaguaries never helped anyone communicate anything. In rereading his post, it is obvious that pup was after more than just my attacking Shinigami; he wanted to know my reasons. That's not quite the reverse, but it's not the same, either, so we're both wrong. And, to undermine your own foundation, I acknowledged that at the time, anyway.

I still rather think that some large portion of your misunderstanding of my statements is deliberate. You came onto me rather hot while I was at the top of the suspicion charts, and you're keeping it up in the face of this new scandal. Your little slip-up was quite telling, though, and while I don't know where RangerCado stands on the truth chart, I'm pretty sure at this point that you're just scum trying to manipulate the situation to your best advantage. It would help if your perceived meanings of my statements were closer to what was actually said, of course.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

[spoiler]

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

Specifically right here. I particularly appreciate your manufacturing the whole "good for town" angle, but I've already spoken on that. If you have some new concerns about what I've said, I'd love to hear them, but I'm kind of tired of restating my points over and over again to someone who is just going to reinterpret them freely for manipulative purposes.

You should be glad, though. You've got me off Shinigami's back. Isn't that what you wanted?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 12:37:55 am

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 11:58:45 pm

Previously, I didn't find you all that suspicious, but you made one of the slips I often almost make as scum.  So you've jumped a few places on my list.

Fair.

---

Demdemeh:
In the interest of actual dialog (and because I've already spent two hours trying to find the answers myself); before I answer any of your questions could you please tell me the following:

What is this post of griffinpup's that you consider to have been sorta attacking you on your read of Shinigami, but on further review was pressing you for your reads on Shinigami?
What post do you feel griffinpup copied when he made his post?

As far as I can tell, they don't exist... That is my foundation: not that you "were wrong."  I'm saying you were blatantly OMGUSing, and still are.

It's really convenient that you come back from your hiatus right after my mistake; essentially freeing you from the only pressure that was on you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:45:57 am

Now I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing. I quoted the post that I took to be an attack from pup in my response to said attack. You can find his original here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261048#msg4261048). I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about a post he copied as a part of that, because I can't find the part of my most recent post which reference copying at all. Could you quote that specifically for me?

And I came back from my "hiatus" well before your mistake. Weekends don't count, remember? Or are you going to make the same mistake I did right out of the gate?

If you're going to keep digging yourself a hole, you'll need a shovel. Your hands are getting rather dirty.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 01:02:52 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:45:57 am

Now I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing. I quoted the post that I took to be an attack from pup in my response to said attack. You can find his original here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4261048#msg4261048). I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about a post he copied as a part of that, because I can't find the part of my most recent post which reference copying at all. Could you quote that specifically for me?

Yeah that would be this:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I think that I mentioned exactly what I found odd. It wasn’t that he was attacking Shinigami, but that he was attacking ME for attacking Shinigami, and very closely to his own attack.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 03:30:02 am

Holy... I come back to... this?

Ranger: What the hell? I dont even...

Unvote

That claim was suicide you fool. If you're scum, you've singled yourself out so we know who to lynch at Lylo, and I want to get to work finding your partner. If you're telling the truth, there is no way the scum will let you live through the night. from their perspective, killing you is a win/win deal. Ford said it best:

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 02:40:27 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 19, 2013, 11:54:38 am

Captain: final hypothedical. you are mafia. it is night 1. on day 1 a bandwagon was forming on a townie. they claimed cop. do you NK the claimed cop or someone else? if someone else, the following day the cop claims to have investigated a random townie and found them clean. do you fakeclaim jailer?

I kill the cop, duh. If the jailer protects the cop, nobody dies, and aside from learning the game has a jailer, the town learns nothing new, while we get to inspect one person to try to find the jailer. It's a win for me no matter how you look at it.

I wouldn't fakeclaim jailer that early in the game.

Ranger: who here would you least like to have as a scumbuddy?

---

I'm guessing Ford is going to be gone all weekend, and if that's the case he wont be able to respond to what's happening here with the current deadline, and I want his input (and him to answer some questions) therefore: Extend

---

finally got some data to work with, lets see if I can make something out of it. I'll assume Ranger is scum for now, and when he flips, one way or another, will be soon enough to see if I'm right. It's time for a re-read, Ranger might have accidentally fingered his partner sometime during the day. or his partner might have fingered himself from how he interacted with Ranger.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 03:31:40 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 03:30:02 am

If you're telling the truth, there is no way the scum will let you live through the night.

This statement is false.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 04:07:06 am

Quote from: Vector on May 26, 2013, 03:31:40 am

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 03:30:02 am

If you're telling the truth, there is no way the scum will let you live through the night.

This statement is false.

...
So, i'm jumping the gun here?

um, advice please, is trying for an interaction-based analysis right now a good idea or no?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:14:09 am

Deal with what's on your plate.  Don't chain lynches.  If you dig up significant data on Cado's alignment one way or another, then that's great, but don't jump the gun and look specifically for a scumbuddy (for example, you might overlook information on people who, say, tunneled or bandwagoned him to death, if he's town; and that would be the information you wanted.  Wearing yourself out for nothing.  If you're town, then your energy is your most precious resource.  Use it well).

The reason why that statement is false, though, is because of WIFOM.  If the scum are sitting pretty right now, why would they assume they'd get investigated?  Might be worth a gamble!  He looks shitty, the town lynches him, the scum get more kills.  Like, you can go on and on and on with that chain of reasoning.  Just focus on trying to find out his alignment without too much speculation into motivations.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 04:24:55 am

Ok, i'm a bit lost then. All my reading has simply said that Day 1 claims are dumb, and not to do it, with no explanation of how to handle one. Unless someone counter-claims him (which I think would also be dumb, but I would like to hear your opinion on this option), do we grant him a stay of execution even if he looks scummy, on the off-chance that he's town, or do I put my vote back on him, since the reasons I had for having it on him in the first place are unchanged?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:33:57 am

If someone counter-claims him, then it's worth trading one-for-one, IMO.

Look, even if my gut says Cado is town, it's not worth acting on it.  If you think he's scum, then kill him.  It doesn't matter what power-role he claims.  He learns something, we learn something.  You don't get a "get out of scummitude free" card just because you told a lie with great confidence.

I honestly don't want to lynch him, but my opinion is that we have to.  I'm a bit lost myself, and I welcome opposing arguments.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 04:41:58 am

So, remain mostly unswayed and vote as I think, despite the claim?

in that case, Ranger I haven't seen any reason to remove my vote from you other than your roleclaim.
...
I think that extend I voted for a moment ago still is a good idea.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:50:16 am

Did I not vote for that?

Extend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 05:48:56 am

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 07:53:33 pm

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

Pup: what about the case where we have no jailkeeper after all? I dont want him to become "confirmed town" through the silence of a nonexistant jailkeeper.

---

regarding the slip Day made, I want to wait to weigh in until Ford gets around to answering the question I asked him Thursday, because the wait is making me wonder if he's waiting to hear MY opinion of Day before saying his own. in the meantime though, I'd like some clarification of something.

Dem: What is the big difference between the slip you and Vector are accusing Day of and the slip I accused Shinigami of? I was condemned for making that accusation of Shinigami, but this, quite similar, accusation appears to be being taken quite seriously. what criteria makes a potential slip worth pressing or not?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 26, 2013, 10:16:15 am

I won't be able to post here for about 6 hours as i have church and homework to do. I'll have a bigger post addressing everything then. EXTEND

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 26, 2013, 12:11:48 pm

EXTEND

We will need the time to sort through this mess. I've got a lot of scenarios running through my head, but none of them are ideal.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Tiruin on May 26, 2013, 12:35:23 pm

Since here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268239#msg4268239)

Extension Granted

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(4) - Shinigami_King, Vector, Griffionday, Lenglon
• Griffionday(1) - Demdemeh
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(1) - RangerCado
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(1) - Captain Ford
• Shinigami_King(0) -
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - griffinpup, birdy51

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 29, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130529T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"This doesn't look good."
"The loss of most officials on the board, or the position of your King, ma'am?"
"No. Word from the standing guard of the region. They're recalling troops on some undefined order.

"And word is coming from our area. Hold on, I'll check the outpost wards in the meantime."
"It is your move."

---

I'm have returned.

PS: I search the word 'Extend/Shorten/Oppose' in the forum searchengine for easier checks if I missed anything. Heh.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:05:26 pm

my vote is currently on ranger, please see above.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 26, 2013, 01:18:29 pm

Real quick post.  I'll cover everything later today. 

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 05:48:56 am

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 07:53:33 pm

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

Pup: what about the case where we have no jailkeeper after all? I dont want him to become "confirmed town" through the silence of a nonexistant jailkeeper.

It's my understanding that us, the town, have to have a  role in our camp.  We have the cop, the jailkeeper, or both.  Knowing this, we can assume that there is a jailkeeper until someone counter claims Cado.  The real cop should do if he exists.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:30:04 pm

fair point, if we have no cop, then it IS safe to assume we have a jailkeeper...
still, that would leave us with no power roles and one unidentified scum...
so much WIFOM...
I dont like voting then unvoting over and over again on the same person. I think I'll mull this over for a while so that if I unvote again I wont have to put it right back on him five posts later.

---

Pup: how is having the real cop out themselves on day 1, before they've been able to get a single read, helpful to us? It will let us solidify our read of Ranger, but it will also out them to the remaining scum, and we'll be in almost the exact same situation as before Ranger claimed. If we can figure out Ranger's alignment without leaving ourselves with no power roles, then we'll be in much better shape. Even if we end up leaving Ranger alive for now, can't the real cop counterclaim on day 2 or 3, after having gotten some reads, and maybe found the other scum as well?

Is it really worth it to leave the town without power roles to kill one scum?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 26, 2013, 01:41:06 pm

Captain Ford, we need your input on this situation. You haven't posted for two days, and frankly that's extremely worrying considering you are one of our ICs. Where are you?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:47:03 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on May 26, 2013, 01:41:06 pm

Captain Ford, we need your input on this situation. You haven't posted for two days, and frankly that's extremely worrying considering you are one of our ICs. Where are you?

he wasn't here last weekend either. I'm not bothered by his absence today and yesterday, but Thursday's low input and Friday's total disappearance is pretty worrying. we're probably going to have to wait until Monday to get input from him, assuming he doesn't stay disappeared like he did on Friday.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 01:54:26 pm

Demdemeh:

I am going somewhere with this, please humor me.

---

Ranger:

Since I've had time to think on your role claim I have a couple other questions for you to try to figure out what you were thinking when you claimed.

Why did you role claim so early?  You had over a day left (well, disregarding the fact that it was the weekend...).
How do you expect us to verify your claim? 
Lets say the reverse happened, and someone who had a large amount of pressure on them cracked and claimed cop; how would you respond?

---

Birdy:

Quote from: birdy51 on May 26, 2013, 01:41:06 pm

Captain Ford, we need your input on this situation. You haven't posted for two days, and frankly that's extremely worrying considering you are one of our ICs. Where are you?

While his advice would be extremely useful and enlightening, I think we should be trying to get on without relying on the ICs.  Press where you can, try to figure out what is actually happening and give the ICs an example of what you think should be done in this situation.  If you're less than perfect, they'll have something they can advise you on and if you do well you move the game forward. 

Basically it's you who's playing the game; you have your own way of looking at things, your own way of gathering and interpreting information, and your own play style that is geared toward gathering the information you find useful.  They do as well, which is why them giving you an algorithm for this situation will be infinitely less helpful than them giving you pointers on how to play your game more effectively.

"Fly with what you know, but tread lightly where you land."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 03:40:52 pm

The reason why we need Captain Ford's input is because I think he's scum, not for any other reason >_> <_<

Quote from: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 01:54:26 pm

While his advice would be extremely useful and enlightening, I think we should be trying to get on without relying on the ICs.  Press where you can, try to figure out what is actually happening and give the ICs an example of what you think should be done in this situation.  If you're less than perfect, they'll have something they can advise you on and if you do well you move the game forward. 

Basically it's you who's playing the game; you have your own way of looking at things, your own way of gathering and interpreting information, and your own play style that is geared toward gathering the information you find useful.  They do as well, which is why them giving you an algorithm for this situation will be infinitely less helpful than them giving you pointers on how to play your game more effectively.

"Fly with what you know, but tread lightly where you land."

But yeah, this is true, too.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 26, 2013, 03:58:24 pm

Update: I've been keeping house for my mother, who's away at a conference, which has taken up much more of my time than I expected, as well as sapping a lot of my energy since I'm horribly allergic to her cats.

I have three or four half-written posts sitting here that are horribly outdated now. I got hung up on trying to get a read on Day to reply to Lenglon, and never managed to get a post out the door.

I'm actually at work right now, but things are abnormally quiet and I think I might actually be able to put something together right now.

Ugh, no. Real life has put a lot of obstacles in my way lately. I'm sorry, but I just don't think I can do a proper job of this right now. (I should have dropped out a lot sooner, but I guess my pride was getting in the way)

Unvote
Request Replacement

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:07:23 pm

Okay, fair =)  Thanks for letting us know.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: RangerCado on May 26, 2013, 04:21:50 pm

Griffy: Claiming in the last 6-12 hours would do what it did when i first claimed. I'd gain 2-3 votes and die immediately. I doubted i'd be able to muster up the support for an extension as Shinigami, and maybe lenglon, would just go against it, needing the 6 players to vote for extention of the remaining seven.

I have no idea. If i somehow get an inspection through, i may hit a mafia. And if i don't and you kill me tomorrow, hey i got everyone a confirmed townie.

At first, same as everyone has so far. But having done it myself now, I would look at those voting him. Whats their position, are they firm in their standing enough to go for the lynch, how many immediately backed off and who suddenly jumped in but left in their next post after a couple hours. If theirs enough people stuck in their lynch vote, i could see someone else panicking. (especially since this is a BM) It all comes down to, could you see this player doing this?

Shinigami: No talking to me about mafia at school. Seriously, were not supposed to so stop trying to start conversations about it if we're in the same game unless we're both mafia or a cult.

Vector: Your telling Shinigami to not vote off of who he thinks is scum but to vote on who he knows is scum.. but then tell lenglon to do the exact opposite... Why are you contradicting yourself?

Ford: Sorry to see you go man.

Lenglon: Probably Shinigami. He seems like the kind to pull a Webadict, becoming more and more towny looking by bussing all of his scum buddies. (This is just from reading Webs scum games where he seems to bus almost all of his scum buddies early if its in his best interest, sorry if this is inaccurate)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:25:39 pm

. . . No, I told Shinigami not to vote for people based on his personal dislike of them.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: birdy51 on May 26, 2013, 04:28:44 pm

Ford: Indeed... Sorry to see you go.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Captain Ford on May 26, 2013, 04:46:02 pm

The activity in this game is simply amazing, too. Do you realize that you already have more posts in the first day then there were in the entire last game?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 26, 2013, 04:48:21 pm

Demdemeh:
The reason that I was questioning you on pressuring Shinigami was that you gave limited reasons and kept your vote on him without following through.  Those questions were answered in part by your excuse of bad play.  However, I didn't make a mistake.  At the time, I was pressuring Shinigami, and doing so actively.  Unlike you, I kept onto him.  You merely asked a few questions then left your vote on him for no reason.  If you had a reason, you never said it, and that was why I was questioning you on it.

My current opinion on Cado...  I believe that if there is a real cop, and Cado isn't it, that they should claim, allowing an insta-lynch on Cado and getting rid of a mafia.  If this happens, it would give us at least seven people left.  We might be left without any power roles, but we still have an excellant chance of winning.  If there is no counter-claim, we have to assume he's either the real cop or a mafia claiming cop.

Shinigami, you still haven't answered the questions you promised me.  Don't think you can sneak out of that just because Cado claimed cop.

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 26, 2013, 04:46:02 pm

The activity in this game is simply amazing, too. Do you realize that you already have more posts in the first day then there were in the entire last game?

And we just voted our second extension on day one.  It's gonna get a lot longer.

Did I miss any questions directed at me?  If so, please tell me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 06:11:28 pm

Ford:

Sorry to see you go; you would have been an excellent balance to Vector in terms of philosophy on the game.

Good luck with life and get back soon.

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 26, 2013, 04:48:21 pm

My current opinion on Cado...  I believe that if there is a real cop, and Cado isn't it, that they should claim, allowing an insta-lynch on Cado and getting rid of a mafia.  If this happens, it would give us at least seven people left.  We might be left without any power roles, but we still have an excellant chance of winning.  If there is no counter-claim, we have to assume he's either the real cop or a mafia claiming cop.

I disagree with cop claiming today; I feel that this needlessly exposes them when they can still be useful.

For one: we don't actually have any guarantee that there is a town cop to be able to counter claim.  If Ranger is unreasonably lucky scum this will give him free reign to wreck havoc...

If there IS a cop I agree that the cop should counter-claim; but not today.  Think about it from their perspective: they know that Ranger is lying scum, and can afford therefor to focus on someone else for the night.  This way when they DO claim they can also give town their read for the night.  On the other hand I don't believe they should wait for lylo to claim, as that puts undue pressure on town to verify their claim.  This makes tomorrow for the optimal time for them to counter claim.  I'm willing to unvote Ranger and see what tomorrow brings on his case.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: griffinpup on May 26, 2013, 06:17:07 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 06:11:28 pm

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 26, 2013, 04:48:21 pm

My current opinion on Cado...  I believe that if there is a real cop, and Cado isn't it, that they should claim, allowing an insta-lynch on Cado and getting rid of a mafia.  If this happens, it would give us at least seven people left.  We might be left without any power roles, but we still have an excellant chance of winning.  If there is no counter-claim, we have to assume he's either the real cop or a mafia claiming cop.

I disagree with cop claiming today; I feel that this needlessly exposes them when they can still be useful.

For one: we don't actually have any guarantee that there is a town cop to be able to counter claim.  If Ranger is unreasonably lucky scum this will give him free reign to wreck havoc...

If there IS a cop I agree that the cop should counter-claim; but not today.  Think about it from their perspective: they know that Ranger is lying scum, and can afford therefor to focus on someone else for the night.  This way when they DO claim they can also give town their read for the night.  On the other hand I don't believe they should wait for lylo to claim, as that puts undue pressure on town to verify their claim.  This makes tomorrow for the optimal time for them to counter claim.  I'm willing to unvote Ranger and see what tomorrow brings on his case.

OK.  I accept your argument for why the cop could wait for tomorrow before claiming.  So... Just back to scumhunting then?  One more thing though.  What if there is no counter claim tomorrow?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 06:37:31 pm

Then we do exactly what we would do if there was a claim:  Weigh our opinions of him and see if we think he is telling the truth, if he is then we don't lynch him, if he isn't we lynch him.  In the case where we're unsure... I don't know.  Leaving him alive to lylo could be risky as the stakes go up exponentially, but on the other hand if we're not sure it could be worth giving ourselves another day to think on it...

As I said before: "wifom now vs. wifom later."  If you want to put it off until we may have more information, I'm okay with that.  But the thing is we can't really trust him now; he may report town tomorrow, in which case meh, or he could be scum and decide to bus tomorrow.  This is not factoring in the effect the jail-keeper will have on the role...  As I said; I'm willing to accept a no lynch because we might get more information; but we'll NEVER be out of a position where we second guess ourselves on his claim.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:38:56 pm

Gday: I see what you're saying, now. I confused some time stamps a bit, and going back through I noticed that pup's approach of Shinigami came a couple days after his attack of my own reasons. And you see that he's further clarified that more recently.

Lenglon: If you're referring to Shinigami's claim earlier in the day that the probability of the two of you both being scum was low, that was a legitimate response to Gday's statements to that exact fact earlier in the same day. While you're right that it definitely leaves room to infer that he is scum, it leaves equal room to infer that you might be, too. However, Gday's slip was a flat-out admission of guilt through claiming adversity with town. There's a pretty big difference between the two.

So, basically, accidentally claiming the scum alignment is worth pressing, while vague statements which hold up as responses to claims around them aren't necessarily. Not that I agree with your pressure being diverted; I was still after Shinigami at that point, as well.

RangerCado: At this point, I don't think it's possible for me to trust any claim of successful power use on your part. Even if you're right, if you're scum, you could just as easily be bussing... and with nine townies to two scum, we can't afford to accidentally lynch someone you outright claim is scum, anyway. You took a big risk claiming on day one, but I don't really see any way that could pay off, especially since the odds of the actual town cop investigating the right guy in the first night are not very good. If your purpose was to confuse everyone, then you may pat yourself on the back. You've done so admirably. You are an excellent distraction.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 06:47:00 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:38:56 pm

Gday: I see what you're saying, now. I confused some time stamps a bit, and going back through I noticed that pup's approach of Shinigami came a couple days after his attack of my own reasons. And you see that he's further clarified that more recently.

You still haven't answered my question:

Is there or is there not a similarity between your attack on Shinigami and griffinpup's attack, that could be reasonably construed to be him "voting for Shinigami for the same reasons as you"?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:52:25 pm

There are points that he made that are similar to the ones that I was trying, and failing, to make, yes. Specifically his reaction to active scumhunting and deliberately delaying his own, with a public admission. Does that help you, at all?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 26, 2013, 07:12:43 pm

Yeah, a bit.  Just to be completely sure: by "his" in the second sentence you are referring to Shinigami and not griffinpup?

Unfortunately I have to go get ready for tonight, I'll spend some time looking through your posts to me and responding to everything tonight if I get the chance, or early tomorrow if I don't.  If there is anything in particular you need me to answer, (or things that you feel I've clarified adiquatly) please let me know.  If not, I'll assume your two posts addressed to me yesterday [One (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272358#msg4272358) and two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272626#msg4272626)] are representative of what your current opinion is, and what you want me to address.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 07:44:06 pm

Yes. Shinigami and not griffinpup. So far, yes, those are my current opinions on the matter.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 26, 2013, 11:38:03 pm

For anyone curious, I have been busy all week. My sisters and brother are triplets so there birthday made me pretty busy. I am finally sitting down to read everything but I swear this is the longest D1 I have ever seen. (Is this natural?) Don't worry Pup, the main thing I want to do is answer your questions seeing as I feel confident in my read on Cado. I will continue to scumhunt however so that I will not be inactive. I was just taking a break over the weekend. Also cado, I never talk to you about mafia at school anyway. Are you trying to look like the good guy in this thread? It makes you look more suspicious. The most I have said to you about this game in school was simply when I told you that there was a new post or I didn't think your response was strong. Seriously, you are making yourself look awfully fishy to me.

---

Unrelated to thread.
I know I could tell you at school but I don't want to forget to tell you that there is no D&D on Wednesday again. I'll be busy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 26, 2013, 11:40:54 pm

Dude, send each other PMs for this business unrelated to the game >_>  We aren't a telegraph service.

As for the long D1... eh, it's not particularly surprising?  Days shouldn't be inflated, but yeah, this is pretty much standard.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 12:05:37 am

The reason I didn't send a PM is because I feel like the PM's are super easy to miss. It takes me a few days at least to generally notice I have a message. Also, I am thoroughly surprised about this length. I thought most vanilla mafia games would take the same amount of pages as BM XL did.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 27, 2013, 12:44:30 am

Vector: I'm still pretty uncertain regarding the lynch now or lynch later of ranger. I've noticed that you've left your vote on him. could you restate why?

Shinigami: Before Ranger's roleclaim, you promised us some explanations over the weekend. They have yet to materialize. please fix this.

By the way, Remember when I entered BM XL how I mentioned that I was shocked by how short it was? now you know why. also, a simple way to make sure you dont miss PMs is to set your profile to send you emails whenever you get PMd. assuming you check your email regularly anyway.

Ford:Understood, although if you dont get replaced soon I would benefit a lot from having that question I asked you Thursday answered. I feel like my hands are tied right now.

Pup:Under what conditions, assuming that there are no further roleclaims, would you lynch ranger? He seems very scummy to me, but I understand why people would want to keep a power role in the game.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Demdemeh:

As a personal favor please make it clear what points you are addressing with each sentence.  At the very least split your responses into paragraphs based on what point you are responding to.

Alright then; points that I feel need to be addressed:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:45:57 am

And I came back from my "hiatus" well before your mistake. Weekends don't count, remember?

Fair;  I was wrong to accuse you of having taken 28 hours to answer my post, as with the weekend not being counted count it only took you ten hours; so my apologies there.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

[spoiler]

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

Specifically right here. I particularly appreciate your manufacturing the whole "good for town" angle, but I've already spoken on that.

Your exact words to Shinigami were "I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami."  The only reason I can see to "appreciate" some one defending you is if you are scum.  Hence the question: I wanted to know if you had another opinion about that that would give you a reason to appreciate him while acting in the interest of town.  As you seem to use appreciate less as a form of "gratefulness" and more as a form of "admire", I'm willing to let this one slid.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

You should be glad, though. You've got me off Shinigami's back. Isn't that what you wanted?

I think you're accusing me of chainsawing you to protect Shinigami; which is complete rubbish and you know it.  My reason for pressing you  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) was based on your presentation of your case and the assumptions you made in making your case against Shinigami and pressing griffinpup.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

Isn't one of the major points to this game to unite town against a perceived member of the scum team and have him lynched? Should it matter to me that I'm not the one applying pressure to someone I believe is scum? I don't think it should. I think I should be glad to direct pressure where I feel it's due.

This is addressing me calling you out on not applying pressure on Shinigami yourself, and relying on re-posting griffinpup's questions to apply pressure.  Note how it does not actually address that; and rather is an excuse for not providing your own case.  Let me ask again then: why did you copy griffinpup's questions press Shinigami when your own case was only "why did you defend Lenglon when you claimed he was scummy?"[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268866#msg4268866)]. 

Your case btw makes no sense if you paid attention to the chronology of Shinigami's defense of Lenglon, and then calling him scummy.  It sounds like you're being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy wherever possible.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

As for my response to griffinpup, at the time his attack on me for my own suspicions against Shinigami was, I felt, a little over-the-top. My own response seemed to be actually a little lower-impact than the original attack.... In rereading his post, it is obvious that pup was after more than just my attacking Shinigami; he wanted to know my reasons. That's not quite the reverse, but it's not the same, either, so we're both wrong. And, to undermine your own foundation, I acknowledged that at the time, anyway.

I think griffionpup made it clear here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4274042#msg4274042) that he wasn't attacking you over the actual act of voting shinigami and just over the fact that you hadn't provided reasons.  What made you so sure that your act of attacking Shinigami was the issue at hand?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

I still rather think that some large portion of your misunderstanding of my statements is deliberate. You came onto me rather hot while I was at the top of the suspicion charts, and you're keeping it up in the face of this new scandal. Your little slip-up was quite telling, though, and while I don't know where RangerCado stands on the truth chart, I'm pretty sure at this point that you're just scum trying to manipulate the situation to your best advantage. It would help if your perceived meanings of my statements were closer to what was actually said, of course.

Sentence by sentence then:
My misunderstanding is based on the fact that you make no sense; as is hopefully evident by now.
Honestly the day end was three days away (one and a half if you don't count weekends); and so I wasn't really paying attention to where you were in the charts.  Hammers are not in effect so it doesn't really matter, I will press scum where I see them.
I'd like to point out that this is the only time you've mentioned the slip-up to my face (more on that in a bit).  Just so you know for future reference: you also weaken your pressure on Ranger here as you mention your doubt. 
It would help if you made any sense, of course.

---

I think that's all the points addressed to me. 
Now if you don't mind Demdemeh I have a couple more points that I want you to address (In addition to the ones made above).

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:52:25 pm

There are points that he made that are similar to the ones that I was trying, and failing, to make, yes. Specifically his reaction to active scumhunting and deliberately delaying his own, with a public admission. Does that help you, at all?

Let's compare that to your actual pressure to Shinigami:

Spoiler: Reverse chronological order: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that
Quote
On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on
. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

I wasn't specifically referring to you with this statement. Others have been far quieter, and have spoken little except with regards to you and Lenglon. You have at least been responding, and have been front and center with the discussion, so hiding isn't a scumtell that could be attributed to you.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 08:30:44 pm

On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on, SK. Why is it so hard to think with this kind of pressure? That's what Mafia is, right? And the entire point of the RVS, from what little I've seen, is to apply pressure to people and see how they react. So, with that observation in play, can you, Shinigami_King, let us know why you choose to play a game which has the potential to disrupt your thinking so strongly? Or is it simply the "Bible of Scumhunting" style of play that Vector is using which upsets you? "If you're suspicious, push... if they move, push harder," right?

So what do you feel is the best strategy for scumhunting?

Not included: Shinigami delaying his scum hunting.  In the interest of completeness you DO mention this in your read on him when attempting to defend yourself from Ranger here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4267461#msg4267461).  Why did you only use this to defend your case on Shinigami rather than say; pressing him about it?

In your posts to griffinpup and Lenglon you make a rather odd claim:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:51:46 pm

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:38:56 pm

Lenglon: If you're referring to Shinigami's claim earlier in the day that the probability of the two of you both being scum was low, that was a legitimate response to Gday's statements to that exact fact earlier in the same day. While you're right that it definitely leaves room to infer that he is scum, it leaves equal room to infer that you might be, too. However, Gday's slip was a flat-out admission of guilt through claiming adversity with town. There's a pretty big difference between the two.

Specifically what I'm seeing here is that you are claiming that my sentence was a deliberate statement of intent, rather than what it was; a typo.  You know this is bullshit, as you say in your post to griffinpup.  So why are you claiming that?  Are you trying to whip together a bandwagon?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 01:19:17 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 27, 2013, 12:44:30 am

Vector: I'm still pretty uncertain regarding the lynch now or lynch later of ranger. I've noticed that you've left your vote on him. could you restate why?

Mostly because the town takes a lot of energy to move once it has momentum in a particular direction, and I'm worried that... well, look.  If we have a bad lynch D1 because we formed up on Ranger and decided to give him clemency until D2, then speedy-quicklynch him then, we've pretty much wasted two days.  I'd rather potentially waste only one day.  I'd also rather not have tomorrow's lynch "called" if we get a replacement IC in.  We don't want to be screening that person at LYLO.

As for who I think the scumteam is, I'm currently guessing Demdemeh and Captain Ford.  But the fact is that I still can't read Cado well enough to rule him out, and this sort of thing is definitely something I think he'd pull as scum for maximum WIFOM.

So yeah.  I think that you should make your own decision, but these are my reasons.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on May 27, 2013, 02:10:33 pm

After all the crap that has come up, I'm extremely uncertain of our next moves as a town. I wasn't expecting this first day to be so tedious. Until the role flip, I was certain Ranger was scum. Now we just have to wait and see.

One of the biggest issues that I'm wondering about with RangerCado, is whether we could trust his "finds" if he just so happens to live through the night. Even if he is still alive on Day 2, I'm not so certain that I could look past everything and believe him.

When I get some time I'll try to do an assessment of where I think everyone is standing so you guys have a better idea of my thought process. I haven't posting as much I was before, so I think the exercise woudld do me some good as well to get me back into the action.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 05:08:20 pm

Massive post by the end of today. I've found some scum tells. (also, everyone go read the scum tells list on page 1. It really helps.)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 05:15:16 pm

Ranger, you better not be attacking me for chainsawing because I pointed out to you personally when I read it that "I think I've been doing that!" Just sayin. Don't use that crap on me, use something else creative and original  :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

(Shinigami: There is an option that makes a pop-up show on screen when you have a message thats PMed)

If i live and get info through the night that someone is mafia, you have 2 options. Lynch me confirming my role claim and allowing for a mafia lynch tomorrow. Or lynch the person i say is mafia and confirm myself. I agree with whoever said that the real cop could just claim now and kill mafia me, making everyones job easier.

If i'm lynched today though, all you've done is lose the town a power role and a vote. Now, for some interesting information i've dug up. (Seriously, everyone should look through the usual scum tells, it will help a lot)

---

Shinigami has dropped the chainsaw scum tell, though he knows he did it and regrets it yet should explain why he did it still, I believe i could semi accuse Lenglon and Birdy for this. Both went on a bit of a fight against me for voting and pressuring Dem when he said he would get back to us but still hadn't appeared. I pushed Dem to come out and start posting, which he has now, and they questioned me why. So now its your turn, Why did you two attack me for wondering why Dem still hadn't come through on his promise?

---

Vector: So you believe that Dem is mafia... but are going to band wagon me because you can't get a good read on me... How is this helpful at all and why are you going for the easy lynch? You haven't even questioned Dem in awhile or me for that matter. You said you didn't want to interfere with the play day 1 too much so the newbies could work out most of their problems without relying on you. This does not give you the right to not scum hunt so start doing something besides giving advice from the sidelines... Wait a minute!!!

Deathsword talked like an IC to help distract and push people towards Borno.  Vector has given all of us plenty of advice and tips but always outside IC brackets which are used to indicate an attempted unbiased opinion. Vector, have you been manipulating us like puppets by giving advice from the sidelines? Why haven't you hunted as you normally do? If you believe Dem is scum, Vote and Pressure him! Get off the side lines Vector.

---

Dem: First up, never appreciate someone defending you unless its on stupidly bad grounds. Beret them and question them on why they're doing your job. You did neither of these despite being called out on it several times. Strike 1.

Second, you believe i can't be trusted on a successful find tomorrow because i could just be bussing my partner... How stupid do you believe these players are? The scum IC would have to be insane to even go along with that and why not just go with bussing me if i'm scum? Nows the perfect oppertunity since everyones after me and it'd be rather easy to justify my lynch. Me bussing my scum buddy if i were mafia day 2 wouldn't be good at all because as town, mafia would definately just start trying to kill me. The longer i live from there, the more confirmed Townies i get for town, the worse the last mafias situation would be, and if mafia didn't kill me day 3, i'd probably be lynched then with a final townie confirmed for them. Strike 2.

You have been tunnelling Griffy with a passion. Granted Birdy did this to me, but he knew something was up, just the wrong thing to be looking for. This tunnelling hasn't led anywhere from my position, and even made me think of Griffy as more towny. Where is this leading to? Have you found anything at all? Griffy has pointed out every problem with your postings, even conceded with your points that made sense. He's been completely forth coming and honest from what i can tell. Now i know that this list of accusations means nothing to you as you don't trust me at all, but atleast tell me what you've learned, if anything, about Griffy's alignment. Strike 3 my friend. Unvote.   Demdemeh.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 27, 2013, 07:50:31 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(3) - Shinigami_King, Vector, Lenglon
• Griffionday(1) - Demdemeh
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(2) - RangerCado, Griffionday
• Shinigami_King(0) -
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(3) - griffinpup, birdy51, Captain Ford

Captain Ford has requested a Replacement!

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 29, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130529T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

A cold wind wafts through the room as the silence of the background settles in. The game has stalled and the Keeper hasn't returned.

---

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 12:05:37 am

The reason I didn't send a PM is because I feel like the PM's are super easy to miss. It takes me a few days at least to generally notice I have a message. Also, I am thoroughly surprised about this length. I thought most vanilla mafia games would take the same amount of pages as BM XL did.

Nope. Everyone on a forum, when receiving a PM, will get their My Messages area lit up with a nice bracket and the number of new, unread PMs received ^^

So go send PMs, just make it not related to the game, please. (I trust you two know each other IRL, right? Please don't share in-game knowledge there >_> <_< Thanks! :D)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 27, 2013, 08:11:40 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 27, 2013, 12:44:30 am

Pup:Under what conditions, assuming that there are no further roleclaims, would you lynch ranger? He seems very scummy to me, but I understand why people would want to keep a power role in the game.

When I believe him to be scum. I'm sorry I couldn't give you a better answer on this, but this is too situation specific to give an overall answer.

Shinigami  You have yet to answer my questions, and haven't even given an explanation.  I gave you the weekend and most of Monday.  You have posted multiple times in that time period, but my questions remain unanswered.  What sorry excuse do you have this time, scum?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 08:53:02 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

Vector: So you believe that Dem is mafia... but are going to band wagon me because you can't get a good read on me... How is this helpful at all and why are you going for the easy lynch? You haven't even questioned Dem in awhile or me for that matter.

You have made a mistake so catastrophically bad that I see no option but lynching you.  Much like a person saying "Yo, I'm scum" or self-voting.  Yes, there is some nuance to it, but you don't let someone you're unsure of make this sort of mistake while just allowing them to fly past.

I think that Ford + Dem is the best-feeling scumteam, but given Ford's disappearance, the amount that letting you live and then politely lynching you later would fuck up the rest of the game, the amount of information we have on those quantities, the degree to which I believed you last time you lied, and the amount of time we have to get more information, we'd better lynch you.  You're sitting only slightly lower than those two those in general scumtell-terms

You unleashed a WIFOM-bomb.  Now you're reaping the consequences.  Don't bend my arguments.  My gut read is that you're fucking moronic town, but I know that if I let you live my head and gut will fight with each other for a long time and muddy my ability to get any more information.

I do not want to lynch you, but I also did not want you to panic and claim and/or fakeclaim at three votes.  Ya screwed the pooch.

I am also not exactly a fan of the "wait until we get information" approach, because you're assuming that you'll inspect and strike scum.

And fuck, all of this is covered in so much goddamned WIFOM that it pretty much doesn't matter what happens--we can't assume that the scum will kill you for us, we can't assume that you'll get any usable information, we can't assume that you're just a stupid townie.  My read on you was fairly scummy and you fucked up, and that means you don't get to live anymore.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

Vector, have you been manipulating us like puppets by giving advice from the sidelines?

No.  If you want to see me manipulating people like puppets, go read BMIV and make a comparison.  Also, stop stealing Shinigami_King's arguments and pretending they're original things you've only ~just now~ come up with.

If you see me giving bad advice, by all means jump down my throat; but all you're doing is muddying the waters.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

Why haven't you hunted as you normally do? If you believe Dem is scum, Vote and Pressure him! Get off the side lines Vector.

EXCUSE ME?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 04:50:51 pm

The Vector + Lenglon situation: Vector is acting how she normally does while scum-hunting against Lenglon. Lenglon is acting nervously to this, possibly due to not being used to the amount of pressure on her or trying to find the Townie thing to say as Mafia. Leaning in favor of Vectors arguement here.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 11:58:31 am

Vector- Lean town. Using her usual hunting methods, hasn't dropped any scum tells, and is doing what i've seen her do in other games as Town.

Why haven't I hunted AS I NORMALLY DO?  Fuck you, you palavering, self-contradictory, slimy little shit.  I've posted about twice as much as anyone else in this game, according to the LurkerTracker; I opened nontrivial attacks on Lenglon, Shinigami, Birdy, and Ford.  I caught Griffionday's slip and your WIFOM-bomb.  I'm glad to see that your sense of self-preservation is running strong, since as you have ascertained--yes, I am indeed the person voting you who will be hardest to move.

Well-done.  You attacked two out of three of the people voting you and bandwagoned onto the second-most prominent lynch candidate; at least a fourth of your posts are messages about "post coming soon" or "just got back from church," and the others mostly contain responses to other people's attacks, including an explanation of how your reactive personality doesn't let you scumhunt; and you have once again attacked me on my "lack of activity," which I have explained some three or four times.

You try scumhunting when everyone around you doesn't know how not to throw scumtells--forget trying to pull them out of anyone involuntarily.

Oh, and by the way:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:20:22 pm

To help the Town, I am the Cop. Cue your questions.

Why did you tell us this?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 06:23:07 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:21:45 pm

RangerCado.

There is no cop role in this game.  Burn in hell.

Check page one Vector, its unlike you to call that so quickly without checking.

Why did you react aggressively here?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 26, 2013, 04:21:50 pm

Vector: Your telling Shinigami to not vote off of who he thinks is scum but to vote on who he knows is scum.. but then tell lenglon to do the exact opposite... Why are you contradicting yourself?

Quote from: Vector on May 26, 2013, 04:25:39 pm

. . . No, I told Shinigami not to vote for people based on his personal dislike of them.

What happened to this?


Fellow, I gave you a chance, did what I could to help you act less scummy, and you've done nothing but spew scumminess.  You dug yourself a grave.  Go keep Dariush company.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 09:23:44 pm

Vector: You haven't given bad advice, but slowly i've gotten the feeling that i'm being manipulated. So if i'm going to die, go do some more scum hunting. We know there are 2 scum so if your so sure its me, go after Dem some more. Or question someone not in those you have.

Why did i say that? Because thats why i did it, so town wouldn't lynch their cop.

How is that aggressive? I pointed out that its unusual for you to overlook things like that.

Because looking back at your original wording, its true. If you tried to explain it away with anything else i would have called you out on it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 09:38:29 pm

I'm not moving the focus off of you.  The more you plead, the more convinced I am that it's right to keep my foot right here.  And remember--I have the right to goof-off breaks, too.  It sickens me that you continue to demand more time spent on this game--inevitably more time spent paying attention to people other than you.  I'll remind you that my obligation is one post per day, and I've delivered.

If you have anything more than a feeling, then make a case.  But so far all I'm seeing is a persistent attempt to attack me with absurdly flimsy arguments--ones that are easily verified as untrue.


The first point is like that one asshole who always goes "When I flip town, you'll see that..."--overemphasizing that you're doing something for the sake of town, yadda yadda, like you're really thinking about whether or not someone will see you as pro- or anti-town.

Saying "you're not acting the way you usually do!" is a soft-ball dogwhistle for "I think you're scum!"  I'm asking why that was your kneejerk reaction upon my vote.  Not just "nah Vector, you're wrong" but "being wrong doesn't seem like you."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 27, 2013, 09:51:19 pm

ok, my vote isn't moving, because Ranger is pretty much certainly scum, and there's no point in wasting time and the life of a townie confirming the obvious.

not only do my old reasons for voting him still stand, but ever since he made that roleclaim he completely stopped scumhunting. additionally that wall o' text he just posted looks like a wall o' OMGUS to me. he attacks each person who is voting him and gives reasons that border on delusional for it, followed by voting for the other person with the most votes on them. His post, supposedly based on the list of scumtells, is nothing but a self-serving survival attempt. even if he is town, if this is an example of what he thinks scumhunting is, then we're better off without him anyway.

Waiting to lynch him will simply let the scum get an extra kill before we can get to hunting his partner, and risks exposing our jailer to the scum. I want our jailer to be able to do their job and not have to make a roleclaim to get obviscum lynched.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

Shinigami has dropped the chainsaw scum tell, though he knows he did it and regrets it yet should explain why he did it still, I believe i could semi accuse Lenglon and Birdy for this. Both went on a bit of a fight against me for voting and pressuring Dem when he said he would get back to us but still hadn't appeared. I pushed Dem to come out and start posting, which he has now, and they questioned me why. So now its your turn, Why did you two attack me for wondering why Dem still hadn't come through on his promise?

Ranger:this accusation is straight-up-wrong, not only did i never attack you for pressuring Dem, I attacked you for NOT pressuring ANYONE enough. I said the opposite of what your deluded mind seems to think I did. clearly you're just trying to save your scummy cowardly skin and didn't even begin to read through what happened a few pages back.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 10:00:50 pm

Lets do this then. You've questioned a bunch of people early on, and now you've almost gone passive. Your soley focused right now on getting rid of the idiot townie that you've ignored your top scum pick. If you think i'm an idiot, thats fine. I know i do a lot of stupid things and claiming from panic is one of them. But don't get angry at me, for thinking your starting to tunnel me just like birdy did. I went and put out things i found odd or scummy about you, Dem, Birdy, and Lenglon with a request to Shinigami. Thing is, i'm human. I make mistakes and try to learn from them. Isn't that what BM's are for? To teach new players what to and not to do?

I'm sorry if i've offended you, I never meant to, and i hope you will accept my apology while we both cool off and get back into the game. Deal?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 27, 2013, 07:08:49 pm

Dem: First up, never appreciate someone defending you unless its on stupidly bad grounds. Beret them and question them on why they're doing your job. You did neither of these despite being called out on it several times. Strike 1.

Second, you believe i can't be trusted on a successful find tomorrow because i could just be bussing my partner... How stupid do you believe these players are? The scum IC would have to be insane to even go along with that and why not just go with bussing me if i'm scum? Nows the perfect oppertunity since everyones after me and it'd be rather easy to justify my lynch. Me bussing my scum buddy if i were mafia day 2 wouldn't be good at all because as town, mafia would definately just start trying to kill me. The longer i live from there, the more confirmed Townies i get for town, the worse the last mafias situation would be, and if mafia didn't kill me day 3, i'd probably be lynched then with a final townie confirmed for them. Strike 2.

You have been tunnelling Griffy with a passion. Granted Birdy did this to me, but he knew something was up, just the wrong thing to be looking for. This tunnelling hasn't led anywhere from my position, and even made me think of Griffy as more towny. Where is this leading to? Have you found anything at all? Griffy has pointed out every problem with your postings, even conceded with your points that made sense. He's been completely forth coming and honest from what i can tell. Now i know that this list of accusations means nothing to you as you don't trust me at all, but atleast tell me what you've learned, if anything, about Griffy's alignment. Strike 3 my friend. Unvote.   Demdemeh.

Cado: First up, appreciating anyone attempting to defend you shouldn't necessarily be a problem; sometimes, people's attacks are in error, after all. Second of all, I was attacking him the entire time. Poorly, maybe, but you'll note that I've been over that several times already.

Second: you can't be trusted because your roleclaim came at a time when you were under pretty heavy attack for your own suspicious behaviour. The scum IC doesn't have any direct control over you. You can make your own decisions. I'm not saying that you're scum; just that your roleclaim stinks of wine so strongly that no one can trust it. In addition, MAFIA CAN CONFIRM TOWN. The two options for you are: Mafia; Cop. Both are as capable of identifying mafia and confirming town. So you can't be trusted. Sorry. Thinking that the other players would just go along with what you say is the actual assumption of stupidity, here. We only have to wait until the day after you're lynched, or the last scum is found, to know whether you're telling the truth. You can't roleclaim from position of weakness.

Finally: You're right. Gday has conceded that some of my points made sense, and explained the questions regarding my other points. I still have problems with some of the same things, but I'm not sure, yet, what I've learned from our little conversation. Obviously, there's still some suspicion on the other side, since Gday is voting me, now, and I think that that's a bit of an OMGUS at this point (as you so lovingly accused me of, GDay), but I'm still making my mind up what I'm getting from what was said. I'm not ready to alter my vote, yet, although I'm about willing to drop my leeway on you, here, RangerCado, since you're willing to jump on the closest thing to a bandwagon that's not on you at the drop of a hat.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Demdemeh:

As a personal favor please make it clear what points you are addressing with each sentence.  At the very least split your responses into paragraphs based on what point you are responding to.

Alright then; points that I feel need to be addressed:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:45:57 am

And I came back from my "hiatus" well before your mistake. Weekends don't count, remember?

Fair;  I was wrong to accuse you of having taken 28 hours to answer my post, as with the weekend not being counted count it only took you ten hours; so my apologies there.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

[spoiler]

Quote from: Griffionday on May 24, 2013, 04:06:23 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

Specifically right here. I particularly appreciate your manufacturing the whole "good for town" angle, but I've already spoken on that.

Your exact words to Shinigami were "I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami."  The only reason I can see to "appreciate" some one defending you is if you are scum.  Hence the question: I wanted to know if you had another opinion about that that would give you a reason to appreciate him while acting in the interest of town.  As you seem to use appreciate less as a form of "gratefulness" and more as a form of "admire", I'm willing to let this one slid.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

You should be glad, though. You've got me off Shinigami's back. Isn't that what you wanted?

I think you're accusing me of chainsawing you to protect Shinigami; which is complete rubbish and you know it.  My reason for pressing you  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) was based on your presentation of your case and the assumptions you made in making your case against Shinigami and pressing griffinpup.

It would seem that I was saying that, yes. I think it's probably fairer to state that you were following up on griffinpup's points, which I think I answered rather well.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

Isn't one of the major points to this game to unite town against a perceived member of the scum team and have him lynched? Should it matter to me that I'm not the one applying pressure to someone I believe is scum? I don't think it should. I think I should be glad to direct pressure where I feel it's due.

This is addressing me calling you out on not applying pressure on Shinigami yourself, and relying on re-posting griffinpup's questions to apply pressure.  Note how it does not actually address that; and rather is an excuse for not providing your own case.  Let me ask again then: why did you copy griffinpup's questions press Shinigami when your own case was only "why did you defend Lenglon when you claimed he was scummy?"[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268866#msg4268866)]. 

Your case btw makes no sense if you paid attention to the chronology of Shinigami's defense of Lenglon, and then calling him scummy.  It sounds like you're being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy wherever possible.

Shinigami's defense of Lenglon happened pretty early in the game, while I was still adjusting to the basics of this game. If you'd pay attention to the chronology of my own posts, you'd notice that. In addition, there's little difference between "being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy" and "feeling suspicious and discussing the parts of someone's statements that make you feel suspicious in order to put pressure on someone" as far as I can tell. Can you explain to me exactly what that difference is, and how what you're doing with my own statements isn't the same thing?

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

As for my response to griffinpup, at the time his attack on me for my own suspicions against Shinigami was, I felt, a little over-the-top. My own response seemed to be actually a little lower-impact than the original attack.... In rereading his post, it is obvious that pup was after more than just my attacking Shinigami; he wanted to know my reasons. That's not quite the reverse, but it's not the same, either, so we're both wrong. And, to undermine your own foundation, I acknowledged that at the time, anyway.

I think griffionpup made it clear here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4274042#msg4274042) that he wasn't attacking you over the actual act of voting shinigami and just over the fact that you hadn't provided reasons.  What made you so sure that your act of attacking Shinigami was the issue at hand?

I'm pretty sure that I addressed this, already, too. What is your problem, Gday? Digging up buried hatchets to make old cases new again is not a charming trait. I'm not impressed, and I don't think anyone else is, either. The aggressiveness of his statements, paired with his own attack with Shinigami, made me feel that it was a bizarre juxtaposition.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 12:10:45 am

I still rather think that some large portion of your misunderstanding of my statements is deliberate. You came onto me rather hot while I was at the top of the suspicion charts, and you're keeping it up in the face of this new scandal. Your little slip-up was quite telling, though, and while I don't know where RangerCado stands on the truth chart, I'm pretty sure at this point that you're just scum trying to manipulate the situation to your best advantage. It would help if your perceived meanings of my statements were closer to what was actually said, of course.

Sentence by sentence then:
My misunderstanding is based on the fact that you make no sense; as is hopefully evident by now.

And you make no sense to me. That's the beauty of not seeing into each others' heads. There's a bit too much attempt at interpretation on your side, however... try to read the sentence as it's written, first. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Honestly the day end was three days away (one and a half if you don't count weekends); and so I wasn't really paying attention to where you were in the charts.  Hammers are not in effect so it doesn't really matter, I will press scum where I see them.

Likewise.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I'd like to point out that this is the only time you've mentioned the slip-up to my face (more on that in a bit).

Really? I suppose I've done a bad job at directly quoting exactly what I'm referring to each time, but I did in fact mention it obliquely at least once.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

  Just so you know for future reference: you also weaken your pressure on Ranger here as you mention your doubt. 
It would help if you made any sense, of course.

I am not pressuring Cado. I'm pressuring you, and I've made my position clear: RC is untrustworthy.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I think that's all the points addressed to me. 
Now if you don't mind Demdemeh I have a couple more points that I want you to address (In addition to the ones made above).

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:52:25 pm

There are points that he made that are similar to the ones that I was trying, and failing, to make, yes. Specifically his reaction to active scumhunting and deliberately delaying his own, with a public admission. Does that help you, at all?

Let's compare that to your actual pressure to Shinigami:

Spoiler: Reverse chronological order: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 24, 2013, 09:09:24 am

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268330#msg4268330)

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 20, 2013, 07:10:44 am

Quote from: Shinigami_King

Demdemeh- I don't understand what you are saying when you say that
Quote
On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on
. After joining this discussion haven't I painted a target on myself? Yeah, just wondering.

I wasn't specifically referring to you with this statement. Others have been far quieter, and have spoken little except with regards to you and Lenglon. You have at least been responding, and have been front and center with the discussion, so hiding isn't a scumtell that could be attributed to you.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 19, 2013, 08:30:44 pm

On the other hand, your point is very good on other being able to hide while this argument is going on, SK. Why is it so hard to think with this kind of pressure? That's what Mafia is, right? And the entire point of the RVS, from what little I've seen, is to apply pressure to people and see how they react. So, with that observation in play, can you, Shinigami_King, let us know why you choose to play a game which has the potential to disrupt your thinking so strongly? Or is it simply the "Bible of Scumhunting" style of play that Vector is using which upsets you? "If you're suspicious, push... if they move, push harder," right?

So what do you feel is the best strategy for scumhunting?

Not included: Shinigami delaying his scum hunting.  In the interest of completeness you DO mention this in your read on him when attempting to defend yourself from Ranger here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4267461#msg4267461).  Why did you only use this to defend your case on Shinigami rather than say; pressing him about it?

Once again, I was at a point of acclimatization at that point, and learning how to scumhunt. I was not itemizing the things I should attack people on and viciously pressing my case, as I obviously should be doing, according to some philosophies. This has already been addressed.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

In your posts to griffinpup and Lenglon you make a rather odd claim:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:51:46 pm

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 26, 2013, 06:38:56 pm

Lenglon: If you're referring to Shinigami's claim earlier in the day that the probability of the two of you both being scum was low, that was a legitimate response to Gday's statements to that exact fact earlier in the same day. While you're right that it definitely leaves room to infer that he is scum, it leaves equal room to infer that you might be, too. However, Gday's slip was a flat-out admission of guilt through claiming adversity with town. There's a pretty big difference between the two.

Specifically what I'm seeing here is that you are claiming that my sentence was a deliberate statement of intent, rather than what it was; a typo.  You know this is bullshit, as you say in your post to griffinpup.  So why are you claiming that?  Are you trying to whip together a bandwagon?

Have you heard of a Freudian slip? You accidentally say something that you're thinking instead of what you should say. In this case, town instead of scum. Something can be a typo AND an admission of guilt under those conditions. All you have to do is think about your secret scum power roles, and realize how little you want them to be exposed, and BLAM... typing too fast will lead to your inserting "town" when you're thinking of your opponents. That's why I'm claiming that.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 10:20:35 pm

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

I'm pretty sure that I addressed this, already, too. What is your problem, Gday? Digging up buried hatchets to make old cases new again is not a charming trait. I'm not impressed, and I don't think anyone else is, either.

Scummy.  Don't play to the crowd unless you're making a final case for someone's lynch.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 11:51:06 pm

Sorry Pup, I have actually been considering a replacement due to my time restraints but this is a BM so I want to stick through this all the way, especially because school is almost over for me. I have a new job and about half of my social studies to do within the next 3 weeks and I (try to) upload videos on youtube on a consistent basis so for the first time this year I am a bit busy.

---

To be honest, I said I would read through this entire thread over the weekend and I have only been able to make it to page 13.

---

What I can say about Lenglon's scummyness is that I am naturally paranoid. I think I might have jumped on the mob mentality as well. After looking over her posts from early game she seems actually less scummy. But as I said before, her scumhunting does seem to be lacking in this game.

Lenglon- What did you mean way back when, when you said "It's time for a new (or an old) tactic" or something like that?

I agree with vector on this one, ranger, the WIFOM you created is enough to get you lynched let alone your own scumtells. As far as Griffy's WIFOM now or WIFOM later idea, well I choose now just to get it out of the way.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Obviously, there's still some suspicion on the other side, since Gday is voting me, now, and I think that that's a bit of an OMGUS at this point (as you so lovingly accused me of, GDay)

My understanding of OMGUSing is that it is voting someone in an attempt to get them off your back; and implies that you don't see any pressure or attempt to hunt behind the vote.  If you truly believed that this was the case in my read on you probably should not revert to mentioning it to others and press me on it.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I think you're accusing me of chainsawing you to protect Shinigami; which is complete rubbish and you know it.  My reason for pressing you  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) was based on your presentation of your case and the assumptions you made in making your case against Shinigami and pressing griffinpup.

It would seem that I was saying that, yes. I think it's probably fairer to state that you were following up on griffinpup's points, which I think I answered rather well.

First of why did you decide to misinterpret my pressure on you as chainsawing?
Secondly; why the bolded comment?  The fact that I pressed you on your answers to griffinpup's posts should tell you exactly how well I think you answered them.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Let me ask again then: why did you copy griffinpup's questions press Shinigami when your own case was only "why did you defend Lenglon when you claimed he was scummy?"[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268866#msg4268866)]. 

Your case btw makes no sense if you paid attention to the chronology of Shinigami's defense of Lenglon, and then calling him scummy.  It sounds like you're being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy wherever possible.

Shinigami's defense of Lenglon happened pretty early in the game, while I was still adjusting to the basics of this game. If you'd pay attention to the chronology of my own posts, you'd notice that.

My point about the chronology that you completely missed is that Shinigami's opinion of Lenglon changed between when he was defending her and when he was calling her scummy.  Additionally the shift was from white knight to scummy, not the reverse.  You're taking advantage of this fact in your pressure on Shinigami by ignoring his obvious shifts in opinion and instead claiming that he always held Lenglon to be scum.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

In addition, there's little difference between "being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy" and "feeling suspicious and discussing the parts of someone's statements that make you feel suspicious in order to put pressure on someone" as far as I can tell. Can you explain to me exactly what that difference is, and how what you're doing with my own statements isn't the same thing?

Your statements make no sense to me so I am forced to interpret them.  I have attempted to be crystal clear on precisely what I am interpreting what way, to give you a chance to correct me.  What I'm accusing you of, as previously mentioned, is ignoring a large body of Shinigami's work and attempting to use two isolated posts of his as if they were simultaneous.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I think griffionpup made it clear here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4274042#msg4274042) that he wasn't attacking you over the actual act of voting shinigami and just over the fact that you hadn't provided reasons.  What made you so sure that your act of attacking Shinigami was the issue at hand?

I'm pretty sure that I addressed this, already, too. What is your problem, Gday? Digging up buried hatchets to make old cases new again is not a charming trait. I'm not impressed, and I don't think anyone else is, either. The aggressiveness of his statements, paired with his own attack with Shinigami, made me feel that it was a bizarre juxtaposition.

You failed to answer my question which was about the assumption you made about what griffinpup was pressing you on.

I did NOT ask you why you considered it odd. 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

And you make no sense to me. That's the beauty of not seeing into each others' heads. There's a bit too much attempt at interpretation on your side, however... try to read the sentence as it's written, first. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I do actually.  And then in the 90% of cases where that doesn't work, I attempt to interpret most likely meaning.  Hence why I press you on something more than once and "dig up old hatchets": I need to be absolutely sure of what you are trying to say.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Honestly the day end was three days away (one and a half if you don't count weekends); and so I wasn't really paying attention to where you were in the charts.  Hammers are not in effect so it doesn't really matter, I will press scum where I see them.

Likewise.

Why the comment that you were at the top of the charts in pressure then?[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272626#msg4272626)]

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

I am not pressuring Cado. I'm pressuring you, and I've made my position clear: RC is untrustworthy.

This might just be you not playing the way I tend to, but why would you FoS him if you weren't pressuring him?  Attempting to look town?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Why did you only use this to defend your case on Shinigami rather than say; pressing him about it?

Once again, I was at a point of acclimatization at that point, and learning how to scumhunt. I was not itemizing the things I should attack people on and viciously pressing my case, as I obviously should be doing, according to some philosophies. This has already been addressed.

Fair.  Why did you include it in the points that you were "trying, but failing to make"?  Do you count bringing up something new on someone to protect yourself from accusations that you're just leaving your vote on someone without putting thought into it as trying to make a point?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Specifically what I'm seeing here is that you are claiming that my sentence was a deliberate statement of intent, rather than what it was; a typo.  You know this is bullshit, as you say in your post to griffinpup.  So why are you claiming that?  Are you trying to whip together a bandwagon?

Have you heard of a Freudian slip? You accidentally say something that you're thinking instead of what you should say. In this case, town instead of scum. Something can be a typo AND an admission of guilt under those conditions. All you have to do is think about your secret scum power roles, and realize how little you want them to be exposed, and BLAM... typing too fast will lead to your inserting "town" when you're thinking of your opponents. That's why I'm claiming that.

I'm aware of what Freudian slips are.  And if anyone made a typo that could be the result of them being scum and typing to fast to correct their language to town I would be jumping down their throats about it and forcing them to explain in excruciating detail precisely what was going through their minds.

That's not what I was commenting on.  What I was commenting on the fact was that you WEREN'T doing this to me, rather that you were saying "oh; look at this slip that Griffy made, doesn't it make him obviously scum to you?" in an attempt to get people who were previously pressuring you, to switch their votes to me; which seems desperate and scummy.  I mention that you know that it is bullshit as you NEVER pressed me on as I expect town would; instead you just "mention it obliquely at least once."  In other words, you "know" without having to read.  Ergo scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Lenglon on May 28, 2013, 12:18:49 am

Shinigami: do you mean this one? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4258314#msg4258314) if so, that's from page 7, and you're lucky I even remember using that phrase.

My memory is fuzzy on the subject, but I'm pretty sure what I was saying was that I was switching from trying to get reads of where people would jump in WIFOM situations to more classical scumhunting tactics.
in other words time to switch to a tactic that is new for me, but old in general.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 28, 2013, 12:25:21 am

That was the one, thank you! I understood what you meant but I was curious what scumhunting techniques you were switching to and how much that would affect your style.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 28, 2013, 12:27:16 am

at the time, i was switching to "attack attack attack". and my goal was simply to press anyone on anything that might maybe possibly could be scummy.
aka, flailing.

I've since come to the conclusion that it was a bad idea.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Dariush on May 28, 2013, 01:13:45 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 27, 2013, 08:53:02 pm

Go keep Dariush company.

Yaaay

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on May 28, 2013, 05:56:10 pm

I said I wanted to provide some basis of where I am standing, so I'll provide my thoughts on the current state of Day 1.


Captain Ford - Null - Due to his departure from the game, I'm not too keen on giving an opinion of him. He's cited being busy as a main part of his lack of posting up to he left, and I believe him on it. I'll have to judge his replacement to get anything solid.

Dariush - Scum - He's fishy… I don't like him. He's plotting against us, joyously flicking his fingers in delight with every keystroke. I'm onto you Dariush.

Demdemeh/Griffonday - Both Lean Scum - Both GriffonDay and  Demdemeh have not done anything to earn my trust, but neither has done nothing to fully incite my suspicion either. That said, I have an innate distrustful feelings toward the entire Griffonday/ Demdemeh dynamic. I'm wary of jumping into that argument, for it is a dark pit of no return. One of them is likely to be scum based on their arguments… It's just a matter of who.

Griffonpup - Town Lean - I have no qualms with the little Griff. He's tended to keep to the side of conflicts, while maintaining a moderately aggressive attitude. Griffonpup simply doesn't strike me as a scummy.

Lenglon - Town - I've heard whispers of Lenglon being scum on occasion, but I am not feeling a similar attitude. Her early dismissal of one of my earlier questions struck me as honest, and I have since struggled to find the same faults that others have found.

RangerCado: Null - I cannot be certain whether I can trust Ranger or not to be telling the truth. He's been defensive this entire game, without giving what I consider proper justification  for his actions.  There are many little quirks about him that simply bother me. His claim of the Cop has ultimately marked him for death, either at our hands or the hands of the Mafia. I would prefer to keep him alive for our first night, but I understand the calls to lynch him and be done with this WIFOM mess. Let the Town's will be done.

Shingami King - Town Lean - Much like in the case of Griffonpup, I have very few qualms against Shingami these days. I had judged him early on due to his behavior, but I have since given him the benefit of the doubt.

Vector - Town - Frankly, I'm not all to concerned with Vector. She's been doing her job as an IC, and that is that. Vector seems to take great care and pride into what she's doing, which is dissuading me from any assumptions she might be secretly scum.


As an afternote, I am ready for this day to reach a conclusion. It's been turbulent as hell.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 08:41:19 pm

Votecount, please.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Obviously, there's still some suspicion on the other side, since Gday is voting me, now, and I think that that's a bit of an OMGUS at this point (as you so lovingly accused me of, GDay)

My understanding of OMGUSing is that it is voting someone in an attempt to get them off your back; and implies that you don't see any pressure or attempt to hunt behind the vote.  If you truly believed that this was the case in my read on you probably should not revert to mentioning it to others and press me on it.

I was referring to your claim that I was OMGUSing, not claiming that you were.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I think you're accusing me of chainsawing you to protect Shinigami; which is complete rubbish and you know it.  My reason for pressing you  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) was based on your presentation of your case and the assumptions you made in making your case against Shinigami and pressing griffinpup.

It would seem that I was saying that, yes. I think it's probably fairer to state that you were following up on griffinpup's points, which I think I answered rather well.

First of why did you decide to misinterpret my pressure on you as chainsawing?
Secondly; why the bolded comment?  The fact that I pressed you on your answers to griffinpup's posts should tell you exactly how well I think you answered them.

Your statements seemed to me to be defensive of Shinigami.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Let me ask again then: why did you copy griffinpup's questions press Shinigami when your own case was only "why did you defend Lenglon when you claimed he was scummy?"[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4268866#msg4268866)]. 

Your case btw makes no sense if you paid attention to the chronology of Shinigami's defense of Lenglon, and then calling him scummy.  It sounds like you're being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy wherever possible.

Shinigami's defense of Lenglon happened pretty early in the game, while I was still adjusting to the basics of this game. If you'd pay attention to the chronology of my own posts, you'd notice that.

My point about the chronology that you completely missed is that Shinigami's opinion of Lenglon changed between when he was defending her and when he was calling her scummy.  Additionally the shift was from white knight to scummy, not the reverse.  You're taking advantage of this fact in your pressure on Shinigami by ignoring his obvious shifts in opinion and instead claiming that he always held Lenglon to be scum.

I was pointing out that the only reads he had given out at the time were to label Lenglon and me both as scum. I think it's no coincidence that we are the two that he has been the most defensive of, as well.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

In addition, there's little difference between "being opportunistic and looking for places where you can manipulate people's statements and reads to paint them scummy" and "feeling suspicious and discussing the parts of someone's statements that make you feel suspicious in order to put pressure on someone" as far as I can tell. Can you explain to me exactly what that difference is, and how what you're doing with my own statements isn't the same thing?

Your statements make no sense to me so I am forced to interpret them.  I have attempted to be crystal clear on precisely what I am interpreting what way, to give you a chance to correct me.  What I'm accusing you of, as previously mentioned, is ignoring a large body of Shinigami's work and attempting to use two isolated posts of his as if they were simultaneous.

This is the first time that that point has been made clearly. Much of the rest of it has been a quote from me, immediately followed by a twisted paraphrasing of the words used.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

I think griffionpup made it clear here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4274042#msg4274042) that he wasn't attacking you over the actual act of voting shinigami and just over the fact that you hadn't provided reasons.  What made you so sure that your act of attacking Shinigami was the issue at hand?

I'm pretty sure that I addressed this, already, too. What is your problem, Gday? Digging up buried hatchets to make old cases new again is not a charming trait. I'm not impressed, and I don't think anyone else is, either. The aggressiveness of his statements, paired with his own attack with Shinigami, made me feel that it was a bizarre juxtaposition.

You failed to answer my question which was about the assumption you made about what griffinpup was pressing you on.

I did NOT ask you why you considered it odd. 

Did I not answer the question? I think you just don't like my answer. My assumption at the time was that he was attacking me because I was attacking Shinigami. I thought I had made my reasons clear, but I am still getting the hang of spelling out my thoughts in writing.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

And you make no sense to me. That's the beauty of not seeing into each others' heads. There's a bit too much attempt at interpretation on your side, however... try to read the sentence as it's written, first. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I do actually.  And then in the 90% of cases where that doesn't work, I attempt to interpret most likely meaning.  Hence why I press you on something more than once and "dig up old hatchets": I need to be absolutely sure of what you are trying to say.

Could you let me know what you think I'm trying to say up to this point, then, please?

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Honestly the day end was three days away (one and a half if you don't count weekends); and so I wasn't really paying attention to where you were in the charts.  Hammers are not in effect so it doesn't really matter, I will press scum where I see them.

Likewise.

Why the comment that you were at the top of the charts in pressure then?[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272626#msg4272626)]

Because of my prior statement of the possibility of you being in league with Cado. He's top scumpick right now for a lot of people, and if you're his buddy, diverting onto me helps you out a lot. Similarly, since I seem to be a perennial favorite target, piling suspicion on me and trying to lead a little bandwagon seems easier than choosing, say, Vector as a target.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

I am not pressuring Cado. I'm pressuring you, and I've made my position clear: RC is untrustworthy.

This might just be you not playing the way I tend to, but why would you FoS him if you weren't pressuring him?  Attempting to look town?

I'm not sure if he's scum or just ridiculous, claiming Cop on day one. I do think that you emerged from the shadows as pretty scummy immediately after his claim, though; especially with your typo.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Why did you only use this to defend your case on Shinigami rather than say; pressing him about it?

Once again, I was at a point of acclimatization at that point, and learning how to scumhunt. I was not itemizing the things I should attack people on and viciously pressing my case, as I obviously should be doing, according to some philosophies. This has already been addressed.

Fair.  Why did you include it in the points that you were "trying, but failing to make"?  Do you count bringing up something new on someone to protect yourself from accusations that you're just leaving your vote on someone without putting thought into it as trying to make a point?

Actually, yes. If I forgot to mention it up front, I think that bringing it up at any further time, as long as it exists in history, makes sense. Forgetfulness is not scumminess.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 27, 2013, 06:36:17 am

Specifically what I'm seeing here is that you are claiming that my sentence was a deliberate statement of intent, rather than what it was; a typo.  You know this is bullshit, as you say in your post to griffinpup.  So why are you claiming that?  Are you trying to whip together a bandwagon?

Have you heard of a Freudian slip? You accidentally say something that you're thinking instead of what you should say. In this case, town instead of scum. Something can be a typo AND an admission of guilt under those conditions. All you have to do is think about your secret scum power roles, and realize how little you want them to be exposed, and BLAM... typing too fast will lead to your inserting "town" when you're thinking of your opponents. That's why I'm claiming that.

I'm aware of what Freudian slips are.  And if anyone made a typo that could be the result of them being scum and typing to fast to correct their language to town I would be jumping down their throats about it and forcing them to explain in excruciating detail precisely what was going through their minds.

That's not what I was commenting on.  What I was commenting on the fact was that you WEREN'T doing this to me, rather that you were saying "oh; look at this slip that Griffy made, doesn't it make him obviously scum to you?" in an attempt to get people who were previously pressuring you, to switch their votes to me; which seems desperate and scummy.  I mention that you know that it is bullshit as you NEVER pressed me on as I expect town would; instead you just "mention it obliquely at least once."  In other words, you "know" without having to read.  Ergo scum.

You want pressure? All right.

What good reason would someone have to make THAT typo? What WERE you thinking, besides "What the hell, dude?!" when Cado roleclaimed? Why did you pick that moment to jump all over me? Because I still maintain that it looks an awful lot like your buddy is doomed, and you're trying to divert pressure, just as you accused me of diverting from myself to Shinigami. You haven't said an awful lot to Cado, actually, since he claimed. Everyone else has had a lot more to say, and you even commented on MY opinion; why did you think it was my purpose to apply pressure to him when all I said was that I didn't know if he was trustworthy?

I'm tired of waiting, too. Shorten.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2013, 09:09:25 pm

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(3) - Shinigami_King, Vector, Lenglon
• Griffionday(1) - Demdemeh
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(2) - RangerCado, Griffionday
• Shinigami_King(1) - griffinpup
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - birdy51, Captain Ford

Captain Ford has requested a Replacement!

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 29, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130529T21&p0=145&msg=Day+1+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 1

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

A ball of crimson fire floats in from the window and about the room's ceiling. For those who examine it, see brilliant engravings and multicolored frescoes dotting the upper part of the hall.

"Shoo Dariush! You aren't allowed in here!"

The ball of fire stops and flares up, as if annoyed. The Keeper has returned with a flustered look on her face.

"Get back to the lower levels, you. We need peace here, and you're burning the supports."

The spirit replies with a red flush, and a dissipating sound.

"Sorry everyone. Dariush isn't part of our trial here, but I'm quite sure he's onto something."

Dariush has been banished!
He was a Spoiled Spectator!

---

Quote from: Vector on May 28, 2013, 08:41:19 pm

Votecount, please.

Sorry. Was sick a day ago--still sick now. *sniff*

Bad colds. Shoo :I

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 09:12:11 pm

Awww :<  Feel better!


Birdy, why aren't you voting?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 28, 2013, 09:33:14 pm

I was going to mention that I thought it was odd that you were "finished with this hectic day" but you still havn't voted. What's up birdy? Also, I hope it's okay with you guys if I ask for a shorten as well. I feel about done with this day and I also feel like we might get some more clues if we let night go through. Also it will give me some time to read through the thread without having to worry about posting. Thank whatever you believe in for the night! Hallelujah~~~

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 09:34:32 pm

I'll shorten once Birdy votes and it's clear that we're not going to have a tie.

Y'all are right--around now is a good time for a shortening.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 28, 2013, 10:01:22 pm

Day ends in 10 hours. i don't think we need to shorten.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 28, 2013, 10:07:03 pm

Wait... what? I thought... but I... where has my life disappeared to? I could have sworn it was still Monday and this was not until Wednesday afternoon and I'm screwed up in the head. Never mind. I'm keeping my shorten there just for sh*ts and giggles.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on May 28, 2013, 10:36:20 pm

I was planning on watching the how the chips fall on this one, but it looks like we do need an extra vote to seal this one.

I have no intention of creating hung jury.

RangerCado

Also, a vote to Shorten as well. I'm locking in on this.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 10:37:25 pm

All right.  Shorten.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 10:38:56 pm

Oh yeah, warning: I'll be absent from this Friday on for a week.  Visiting relatives in Missouri.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: RangerCado on May 28, 2013, 10:39:47 pm

shorten. I'm not getting out of this so here goes:

Bah!!!! I'm out of here. See you in a bit dariush!

(thats five votes for day end)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 11:00:58 pm

Demdemeh:

Firstly you missed the following question:
Why did you say "I think it's probably fairer to state that you were following up on griffinpup's points, which I think I answered rather well"?  Why did you consider that to be something of merit to your case?  Are you giving yourself a congratulatory pat on the back for answering pressure well?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 27, 2013, 10:10:11 pm

Obviously, there's still some suspicion on the other side, since Gday is voting me, now, and I think that that's a bit of an OMGUS at this point (as you so lovingly accused me of, GDay)

-snip-

I was referring to your claim that I was OMGUSing, not claiming that you were.

...Yes you are.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

My point about the chronology that you completely missed is that Shinigami's opinion of Lenglon changed between when he was defending her and when he was calling her scummy.  Additionally the shift was from white knight to scummy, not the reverse.  You're taking advantage of this fact in your pressure on Shinigami by ignoring his obvious shifts in opinion and instead claiming that he always held Lenglon to be scum.

I was pointing out that the only reads he had given out at the time were to label Lenglon and me both as scum. I think it's no coincidence that we are the two that he has been the most defensive of, as well.

I don't recall him being particularly defensive of you.  Could you point me to examples?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Your statements make no sense to me so I am forced to interpret them.  I have attempted to be crystal clear on precisely what I am interpreting what way, to give you a chance to correct me.  What I'm accusing you of, as previously mentioned, is ignoring a large body of Shinigami's work and attempting to use two isolated posts of his as if they were simultaneous.

This is the first time that that point has been made clearly. Much of the rest of it has been a quote from me, immediately followed by a twisted paraphrasing of the words used.

Which point precisely? 

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Did I not answer the question? I think you just don't like my answer. My assumption at the time was that he was attacking me because I was attacking Shinigami.

Closer.  Now why did you think that?

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Could you let me know what you think I'm trying to say up to this point, then, please?

You quoted most of it...  Unless you had a specific point in mind.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Why the comment that you were at the top of the charts in pressure then?[Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272626#msg4272626)]

Because of my prior statement of the possibility of you being in league with Cado. He's top scumpick right now for a lot of people, and if you're his buddy, diverting onto me helps you out a lot. Similarly, since I seem to be a perennial favorite target, piling suspicion on me and trying to lead a little bandwagon seems easier than choosing, say, Vector as a target.

You missed the point.  Again.  I'm saying that if you weren't paying attention to the charts and hunting based on what you saw as scummy, you wouldn't have made the comment that you were at the tops of the charts in pressure.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

You want pressure? All right.

What good reason would someone have to make THAT typo? What WERE you thinking, besides "What the hell, dude?!" when Cado roleclaimed? Why did you pick that moment to jump all over me? Because I still maintain that it looks an awful lot like your buddy is doomed, and you're trying to divert pressure, just as you accused me of diverting from myself to Shinigami. You haven't said an awful lot to Cado, actually, since he claimed. Everyone else has had a lot more to say, and you even commented on MY opinion; why did you think it was my purpose to apply pressure to him when all I said was that I didn't know if he was trustworthy?

I'm tired of waiting, too. Shorten.

You still fail to comprehend the definition of "typo"...

"Not this again..." mostly, he did similar stuff two or three times last game we played together; got yelled at for it, but it seems to have not stuck. 

Because you finally responded to my earlier pressure.

The FoS was a hint.  There is also the fact that you seem to think vague comments about people is considered to be applying pressure...

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 11:16:08 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 11:00:58 pm

The FoS was a hint.  There is also the fact that you seem to think vague comments about people is considered to be applying pressure...

Just realized I'm unclear here:  I'm referring to this:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 12:05:55 am

Why did you include it in the points that you were "trying, but failing to make"?  Do you count bringing up something new on someone to protect yourself from accusations that you're just leaving your vote on someone without putting thought into it as trying to make a point?

Actually, yes. If I forgot to mention it up front, I think that bringing it up at any further time, as long as it exists in history, makes sense. Forgetfulness is not scumminess.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 11:18:03 pm

Griffionday, if you want to keep arguing, you should probably consider opposing the shortening.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 28, 2013, 11:46:46 pm

I had considered it; but his post record is once per day and he's already off.

Title: BM XLI: Night 1, Under Starry Skies -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 29, 2013, 12:47:23 am

The Day has been successfully shortened!

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(4) - Shinigami_King, Vector, Lenglon, birdy51
• Griffionday(1) - Demdemeh
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(2) - RangerCado, Griffionday
• Shinigami_King(1) - griffinpup
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(1) - Captain Ford

Captain Ford has requested a Replacement!

Night 1 has begun and will end at May 30, 2013. [Thursday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130530T21&p0=145&fg1=a39de0&fg2=d390c2&msg=Night+1+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 5

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

RangerCado has been lynched! He was a Town Cop!

Quote

You are a Scout Ranger. A man of keen senses and possessing the ability to understand the language of birds and beasts. Part of the Ithilien Rangers, known forth as great trackers and hardy warriors—defending their respective areas from evil forces, you have come to the Aerie on a personal quest; sent by the King himself on a deed most peril, even you haven't known the true specifics of the matter other than to meet at the location given, at the time wherein a specific celestial body (which is the Sun) is at a certain position in the sky.

A load of trouble that came to be.

Mayhap, that is life. A life you've grown accustomed to. While you are a man of the law, there is little in the way of using weaponry and underhand methods in clearing the goal at hand--finding the killer or proving people innocent. You can do both, fortunately. Your skills in detecting, tracking and examining little details of a person as well as an animal would serve as a good auxiliary tool, and would speak much of your upbringing.

Somehow, you still wonder why the local Merchant guilds prefer not to trade at all with your folk, making paltry excuses on buying, selling or...'haggling'. Glad to see there are no merchants around!

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Inspect any individual to discover their alignment {which will read: Town or Mafia}. You cannot inspect yourself.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

The game has entered the night phase. No person may post during the night phase and the thread will be locked to ensure as such.

Please submit your actions via PM, if any. The Night will end at the time stated or until all probable actions are sent in.

---

As the debating hits its denouement, the hollow sound of stone crashing against hardened stone shakes the room with its force. For those who turn to check, see the Keeper standing with an ambivalent expression as the scene focuses at the duel of a Pawn and King, against a lone official, the Black King. The clash of swords turn into a series of parries and jabs, feints and unarmed strikes as the rules of the chessboard melt into realistic combat--whatever material the chess pieces were made of, they moved alike the biological replicas they were meant to emulate. A spear to the right and a feint to the left, and only until the Black King is disarmed and badly wounded does the battle stop into frozen simulation with the remaining white duo leveling their weapons at their enemy's chest. The Keeper watches on in silence, nods, and glances in your general direction.

"Do we have a verdict?"
"We believe it is Cado. We have argued long enough to find any innocence within him."
"Very well. While the King hasn't fallen, we will make sure he will."

She picks up one of the fallen spears and raises her left hand, pointing it at Cado, "Checkmate."

What happens next is a blur of time and reason, as everything slows down around you, as if in a theatre. Large cracks appear on the crown as well as most of the statue's body before it breaks apart, joining its brethren all around it. White pawns, knights and soldiers begin reforming from the debris and afterwards, orient themselves towards Ranger, approaching with weapons drawn on the man.

"Why are you doing this?" he says as the figures approach, led by the White King. The King itself replies in a hollow tone as Ranger is surrounded. “The dead cannot cry out for justice. It is a duty of the living to do so for them.”

Ranger bows his head as the King raises his sword, prepared and convinced of the outcome. All were prepared to hear what was the usual background noise of but hours ago: a single strike to end it.

It never came.

Instead of bringing the blade down on the poor man, the King swings it sideways, cutting a rope tied to one of the decorations. What followed next was the sound of a coiling spring, and of falling wood. Minor tremors shake the hall, followed by the unmistakable sound of running water. Then a scream.

"What is going on?"
"Not what, who!"
"What?"
"Cado!"

"He is innocent."
"Hold on." the Keeper says, "No sign of the mark?"
"Nay. The Black King has fallen. The game is Won. I cannot act any further."
"...Well, great. You had to be a spirit of morality."

The hall stays silent for minutes as the Keeper flusters about at the result, before making her decision.
"All of you, pair to a room. Your quarters are a couple levels above this floor. I'll have the hatchway bolted to ensure nothing will happen to you lot, and runes inscribed along the area to take care of what you'll be facing tomorrow.

"Goodnight, everyone."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2013, 12:33:03 pm

"Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength. "

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) -
• Shinigami_King(0) -
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(7) - Captain Ford, Demdemeh, Griffionday, griffinpup, Vector, Shinigami_King, Lenglon

Captain Ford has requested a Replacement!

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 4, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130604T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

birdy51 has been slain! He was a Vanilla Townie!

Quote

You are an Ambassador. A man of virtue and good intention, your purpose at the Aerie lay in the communication with other people, and the protection of your own under the standing of racial differences as well as cultural, traiditonal, literal and menial differences. One of the many Ambassadors residing in the area, your profession speaks much of your knowledge regarding the workings throughout the realm.

Sadly, none of your position or your identity would save against a crime of no legal evidence other than the fact that everyone was carrying a knife near the scene. Apparently, the inspecting guards didn't believe a word you said about carrying knives 'because it is in my culture' and all--they couldn't understand the benefits of always carrying an edged weapon around just for its heavy variance in the field of practical usage.

Well, as life usually goes, it must be all a misunderstanding. Due to recent events, you lack any weapon short of your tongue in persuasion. Your skill in the local dialect and reasoning also leads to a disadvantage however, and your opinions would be shifting as the tides and wind of the day as you listen on with the people.


((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

---

Morning comes, and you all convene in the Main Hall once more, only to find the pin and seal of one of you at the floor, along with a note.

'Another one falls.'

"Not this cryptic nonsense. They've got the Ambassador! It's his pin, and the seal is unremarkable to be anything else!"
"There's another thing."

One of you points towards a spot under the parchment, and under that follows a string of text and code, written as if to be made inconspicuous.

"The Sunwell calls. There you will be aided. A beast watches. Action must be taken."

"Well, isn't this peachy. Following cryptic notes now?"
"Do we have a choice?"
"This is the Keeper's handwriting, if she'd be any more concerned then she'd at least have given straighter directions."
"Yes, the Sunwell."
"...Curse this. Whatever. I'm examining the room later on. Let it just be noted that we're going to have some trouble after all this is over with the Ambassador!"
"I believe he'll be in a better mood than you'd expect."

---

---

Sorry for the lateness...sickness lightening up, but tired.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: zombie urist on May 30, 2013, 12:44:01 pm

Ford needs a replace and Vector's gone for a week...

So currently there's no ICs.  :o

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2013, 12:45:41 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on May 30, 2013, 12:44:01 pm

Ford needs a replace and Vector's gone for a week...

So currently there's no ICs.  :o

I will cry now.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Captain Ford on May 30, 2013, 01:22:18 pm

Well, I've got time now, so I'll do what I can.

Now that we have some flips, you should look back over the events of day 1 keeping in mind that you now know Ranger and birdy51 to be town. Personally, I would examine everyone's case against Ranger and see if any of them strike you as particularly scummy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 30, 2013, 01:32:50 pm

Ennnnjoy :D

I'll be leaving tomorrow, but I don't have the most time today.  So, thanks for the help, Captain Ford.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2013, 01:57:51 pm

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 30, 2013, 01:22:18 pm

Well, I've got time now, so I'll do what I can.

Now that we have some flips, you should look back over the events of day 1 keeping in mind that you now know Ranger and birdy51 to be town. Personally, I would examine everyone's case against Ranger and see if any of them strike you as particularly scummy.

You should examine everyone's case on everyone, regardless of whether you know their alignment or not. Particularly bad cases should never exist to begin with.

As an addendum to that first part, just because Ranger or birdy were Town DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE RIGHT. It does, however, mean that everything they did was done for the Town, and hopefully that they weren't trying to deceive the Town.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 30, 2013, 02:13:35 pm

Damn, I liked Birdy. I'm guessing mafia took him out because he was aggressive and seemed relatively towny to most of us. I'm going to be checking if he had any specific targets first though I don't have much time right now at school.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 30, 2013, 03:05:17 pm

Ford: What is your opinion of Day?

seriously, it's been a week. I understand you're busy, but you said you had time today, and I want an answer already.

I can't afford to let Ford's lack of an answer keep me tied up forever like this.

Vector and Day:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:21:45 pm

RangerCado.

There is no cop role in this game.  Burn in hell.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:29:25 pm

Ranger:

I know you attempt ruses, but seriously: what are you trying to achieve with this claim?

Both of you voted Ranger very quickly upon his claim, and weren't voting him previously. It seems off to me that as town, you would make such an aggressive snap-reaction to his claim, without prior suspicion of him. please explain why your automatic reaction to him roleclaiming cop was to vote to lynch him.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Leafsnail on May 30, 2013, 03:40:52 pm

Is the IC replacement spot still open?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 30, 2013, 04:13:08 pm

Lenglon:
Because that was his entire defense.

He felt he needed to resort to saying "I'm a cop! You need me alive!" rather than hiding and revealing himself when he had information for town to utilise, meaning he was panicking under the pressure.  No-one is going to say "Alright you got me; I'm scum" under pressure; however they very well might fake-claim in an attempt to buy some time.  The fact that he claimed D1 didn't do anything for him either, as it doesn't do anything for town but helps scum; meaning in that sense it was also anti-town play.

He also claimed completely out of the blue: just "To help the town, I am the cop."  No one was asking, and he had pressure on him from Birdy to respond to, the fact that he decided that that should be his defense rather than a response that dealt with the accusations of Birdy felt a bit hasty.

I unvoted him later because I realized that all I was adding to the conversation was "what the hell dude?" and I don't feel experienced enough to validate having policy lynches yet.  Plus; much as I hate to say it, being cop and claiming it D1 seemed to be a VERY Ranger thing to do.

---

Demdemeh:
Due to RL, I may not have time to get back to our conversation before tomorrow evening; I'll try to do so, but I can't make any guarantees.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 30, 2013, 06:43:52 pm

Lenglon: Same thing as what Griffionday said, as you can find in my posts to Ranger from yesterday.

If you're wondering about my speed, that sort of claim is the sort of thing you need to respond to ASAP, not just leave sitting around like "Oh, it's okay, you're scummy but I'll forgive you."  There's pretty much no middle ground.  Like I said, it's like going "I'm scum" without any context of sarcasm.  You lynch 'em.

---

Shinigami-King, why are you commenting on and reading into the nightkill?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 07:13:39 pm

Shinigami_King-  This was your response to my questions that you wanted to take the whole weekend for.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 11:51:06 pm

What I can say about Lenglon's scummyness is that I am naturally paranoid. I think I might have jumped on the mob mentality as well. After looking over her posts from early game she seems actually less scummy. But as I said before, her scumhunting does seem to be lacking in this game.

these were the questions.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 10:51:38 pm

I have in fact pressured her, just very poorly. I will look over the weekend to try to find where, deal?

The Lenglon is scummy topic is something else that I want to take my time with. I want to gather enough info to make a solid read. To do this I want to read through the whole thread and pick out inconsistencies. The major thing is how weak she is playing right now. From meta game I can say that she was a very active and strong player and that isn't showing in this game which is suspicious.

You just flat out didn't address the first question, completely ignoring it in your post.  This question isn't even in depth.  The answer is a quote of one post.  I find your evasiveness and lack of answering simple questions scummy.

The next topic, 'how Lenglon is scummy'.  First of all, we see that you are paranoid, which obviously makes her seem scummy. (My prior statement is Sarcasm.  Your statement about being paranoid seems out of place and poorly connected to what you are trying to prove.) Then we have the almost open admission to bandwagoning Lenglon, "jumping on the mob mentality."  Apparently, she seems less scummy NOW though.  This is because you looked over her posts again.  You never state what exact posts makes her seem less scummy.  You didn't address HOW they made her look less scummy.  This is clearly a pathetic attempt to rationalize you placing her at the bottom of the scum list by making vague statements about the amount of scummy she is.    Your posts starting with this one have contained little to no valuable content whatsoever, merely 'fluff' and vague statements about feelings, never supported by proof or facts.  You evade simple questions and don't back up your statements by any type of reasoning or proof.  You came into this game immediately White-Knighting a player being attacked.  Later you admit that she's scummy, but still rank her as one of the least scummy people in the game.  When questioned on this, the only reasoning you gave on why is that you'd prefer to have her stay in the game so he can continue with her apparently miraculous ability to scumhunt.  This is the excuse you give to not pressure him, as well.  Lenglon doesn't even agree with your assessment of her abilities.  How about instead of keeping scummy people in the clear for an amazing ability that they haven't even demonstrated in this game, you should try to scumhunt yourself.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 30, 2013, 07:15:09 pm

That last paragraph needs a bit of a restructure, griffinpup.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 07:39:05 pm

Sorry.  Should I fix and repost, or leave it?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 30, 2013, 07:56:03 pm

Probably fix and repost.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 30, 2013, 08:02:45 pm

Griffinpup:
Out of curiosity; why do you consider admitting to bandwagoning to be a scum tell?  Because it seems to me that it'd be much like admitting to tunneling, they're essentially apologizing for their actions, indicating that they realize they were playing poorly and that they intend to play better in the future.

Not that bandwagoning isn't a scum tell, but you're focusing on the admission of the action as apposed to the thinking behind the action.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 09:03:38 pm

Shinigami_King- 
these were the questions that you said you'd elaborate on over the weekend.  On thursday, I still find them largely unanswered.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 24, 2013, 10:51:38 pm

I have in fact pressured her, just very poorly. I will look over the weekend to try to find where, deal?

The Lenglon is scummy topic is something else that I want to take my time with. I want to gather enough info to make a solid read. To do this I want to read through the whole thread and pick out inconsistencies. The major thing is how weak she is playing right now. From meta game I can say that she was a very active and strong player and that isn't showing in this game which is suspicious.

You just flat out haven't addressed the first question, completely ignoring it in all your posts.  This question isn't even in depth.  The answer is a quote of one post.  I find your evasiveness and lack of answering simple questions scummy.

The next topic, 'how Lenglon is scummy'.    You came into this game immediately White-Knighting a player being attacked, Lenglon.  Later you admit that she's scummy, but still rank her as one of the least scummy people in the game.  When questioned on this, the only reasoning you gave on why is that you'd prefer to have her stay in the game so he can continue with her apparently miraculous ability to scumhunt.  This is the excuse you give to not pressure him, as well.  Lenglon doesn't even agree with your assessment of her abilities.  How about instead of keeping scummy people in the clear for an amazing ability that they haven't even demonstrated in this game, you should try to scumhunt yourself.   
This was your response to my questions that you wanted to take the whole weekend for.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 27, 2013, 11:51:06 pm

What I can say about Lenglon's scummyness is that I am naturally paranoid. I think I might have jumped on the mob mentality as well. After looking over her posts from early game she seems actually less scummy. But as I said before, her scumhunting does seem to be lacking in this game.

Let's analyze your post attempting to answer the questions above.
First of all, we see that you are paranoid.  This statement seems out of place and poorly connected to what you are trying to prove. Then we have the almost open admission to bandwagoning Lenglon, "jumping on the mob mentality."  Note, bandwagoning is the crime here, not admitting to it.  The fact that you pointed it out for me is merely helpful.  Next, you comment on how she somehow seems less scummy now.  This is supposedly because you looked over her posts again.  You never state what exact posts makes her seem less scummy.  You didn't address HOW they made her look less scummy.  This is a very vague answer to a specific question.  You didn't pick out any inconsistencies in her posts, which was the way you stated to try to figure out if Lenglon was scum.

Your posts starting with this one have contained little to no valuable content whatsoever, merely 'fluff' and vague statements about feelings, never supported by proof or facts.  You evade simple questions and don't back up your statements by any type of reasoning or proof.

To everyone else:  Sorry about double post, RL was interfering and I decided to post unedited instead of delaying my post.  Not my best decision in the world. 
Griffy, I think I answered your question in my remade post also, thanks for  pointing it out.
Vector:  I hope this is better formatted. :-\

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2013, 09:45:30 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 30, 2013, 03:40:52 pm

Is the IC replacement spot still open?

*Tiruin looks at Captain Ford.

Leafsnail looks pretty free.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on May 30, 2013, 09:46:54 pm

That's much better.  Thank you.

The only thing is that, in the future, if you repost for formatting it helps to have a note in the beginning saying you're doing so, so folks don't get confused.  No worries :)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Captain Ford on May 31, 2013, 12:25:32 am

Quote from: Tiruin on May 30, 2013, 09:45:30 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 30, 2013, 03:40:52 pm

Is the IC replacement spot still open?

*Tiruin looks at Captain Ford.

Leafsnail looks pretty free.

Yes it is still open. Please take it.

If I were still intending to actively play I would have voted someone and started a line of questioning, but I didn't feel it was fair to point the finger and then disappear.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Confirmed!
Post by: Tiruin on May 31, 2013, 01:36:32 pm

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) -
• Shinigami_King(2) - Vector, griffinpup
• Vector(0) -
• Leafsnail(1) - Lenglon
• Not Voting(4) - Leafsnail, Demdemeh, Griffionday, Shinigami_King

Leafsnail has replaced Captain Ford

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 4, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130604T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

It is cold. Despite the layered clothing most of you wear, the height from ground level isn't helping your condition. The room looks moderately insulated. Winds blows through the many skylights and holes in the walls, as if whispering something unheard.

There is a large, brown spider about a foot in length perched right above your location, upside down. It is fuzzy, and minding its own business.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Hey, everyone.  I should really get back to packing, but first: lynching RangerCado was a really bad move.  There is no point at all in lynching a cop claim day one, and that applies double if the cop may the only town power role and the mafia has no roleblocker.  I'll focus on the stuff surrounding yesterday's lynch briefly:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 25, 2013, 06:29:25 pm

Ranger:

I know you attempt ruses, but seriously: what are you trying to achieve with this claim?

---

Vector:
I'm satisfied with your answer for now, and don't have anything else I can try and improve my read on you with...

How does one "kick sand"?

This is also really suspicious, particularly if Vector comes up scum.

birdy51's reaction to the event seemed pretty decent, also he was correct about there being no point in lynching the cop.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 02:03:35 pm

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 02:07:33 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 02:03:35 pm

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Is it wrong if I take this as a victory? :) ya, I guess it is.  Sorry to see you leaving King.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 04:02:06 pm

Regardless.  Whoever replaces Shinigami.  What are your current opinions and reads?  What do you think about your predecessors play so far?  Do you agree with his reads, or not?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

Okay, so Demdemeh has been gone from the forums since before the night, and has yet to return.  I still think he's scum due to how he was managing his case on me; but we probably have an active scum.  Until such time as he returns or we end up with only one remaining scum I'm shelving the case on Demdemeh.

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 02:07:33 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 02:03:35 pm

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Is it wrong if I take this as a victory? :) ya, I guess it is.  Sorry to see you leaving King.

Yes it's VERY wrong to see that as a victory.  Pushing someone out of the game is not a victory for town; it doesn't indicate anything about your case other than that it was taken to harshly, and having to get a read on a replacement sets us back over a whole day of discussion with them it cools any leads on them and is in general BAD.  Why would you see this as a victory?  Was it a case that you were making up as you went along and you see his departure as validation that you are capable of faking it?

Quote from: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 09:03:38 pm

Then we have the almost open admission to bandwagoning Lenglon, "jumping on the mob mentality."  Note, bandwagoning is the crime here, not admitting to it.  The fact that you pointed it out for me is merely helpful.

-snip-

Griffy, I think I answered your question in my remade post also, thanks for  pointing it out.

My point was that you were not trying to force him to defend his thoughts and his action, rather pressing him on calling himself out on bandwagoning.  The added sentence just confuses your point as you didn't add to the pressure to change it's actual focus to the bandwagoning.  Think about it: in your pressure all he's required to do is say "I already admitted to bandwagoning, it was a mistake and I'm trying to avoid that in the future" and suddenly he's clean.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 09:03:38 pm

Note, bandwagoning is the crime here, not admitting to it.  The fact that you pointed it out for me is merely helpful.

It sounds like you're grateful to him for handing you a case on a ready made platter.  Why did you consider the admission of wrong doing to be where you should attack?  Were you dissatisfied by his answer and want him to account for his actions more thoroughly, or were you merely trying to create a lynch case on Shinigami?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 06:55:17 pm

Just poking my head in the door here. While you will have to get a new read on a new player you will also likely be able to find the players alignment by "triangulating" the facts and actions taken.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 02:07:33 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 02:03:35 pm

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Is it wrong if I take this as a victory? :) ya, I guess it is.  Sorry to see you leaving King.

Yes it's VERY wrong to see that as a victory.  Pushing someone out of the game is not a victory for town; it doesn't indicate anything about your case other than that it was taken to harshly, and having to get a read on a replacement sets us back over a whole day of discussion with them it cools any leads on them and is in general BAD.  Why would you see this as a victory?  Was it a case that you were making up as you went along and you see his departure as validation that you are capable of faking it?

First of all, the post you quote is mainly for comic relief.  Only my comic relief, perhaps, but comic relief none the less.  I agree with your points about why Shinigami leaving is bad.  If you notice, my conclusion is, that it is wrong to see it as a victory. Shinigami's replacement request comes out as a net loss in our quest to lynch the scum.  Now onto your questions.
Your first question is easily answered.  One reason too see this as a victory is that a problem, Shinigami's crappy play recently, will most likely be fixed.  A replacement is a great improvement over what Shinigami has been demonstrating over the past few days.  I am confused by your last question though.  Are you implying that my case against Shinigami was fake or made up?  Or that I don't really know how to play and am just blundering along hoping not to make too many mistakes? 

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

---

Quote from: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 09:03:38 pm

Then we have the almost open admission to bandwagoning Lenglon, "jumping on the mob mentality."  Note, bandwagoning is the crime here, not admitting to it.  The fact that you pointed it out for me is merely helpful.

-snip-

Griffy, I think I answered your question in my remade post also, thanks for  pointing it out.

My point was that you were not trying to force him to defend his thoughts and his action, rather pressing him on calling himself out on bandwagoning.  The added sentence just confuses your point as you didn't add to the pressure to change it's actual focus to the bandwagoning.  Think about it: in your pressure all he's required to do is say "I already admitted to bandwagoning, it was a mistake and I'm trying to avoid that in the future" and suddenly he's clean.

I was illustrating the fact that whether bandwagoning existed or not couldn't be debated.  He admitted to it, and I was pointing it out.  I admit that I did put my answer to you in my article, where I should of kept it separate and purely to you, but the point is moot now anyways.  Shinigami isn't going to feel any more pressure from this ever again, and neither will his replacement.  Also, you don't get off the hook for doing something scummy merely by admitting to it, then say you're trying to improve.  Apologies don't change the fact that something scummy was done.  My plan on continuing pressure was to press this point depending on his answer and yes, force him to explain why he did so.  But again, the point is probably moot.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 30, 2013, 09:03:38 pm

Note, bandwagoning is the crime here, not admitting to it.  The fact that you pointed it out for me is merely helpful.

It sounds like you're grateful to him for handing you a case on a ready made platter.  Why did you consider the admission of wrong doing to be where you should attack?  Were you dissatisfied by his answer and want him to account for his actions more thoroughly, or were you merely trying to create a lynch case on Shinigami?

I addressed some of this in the prior paragraph.  But one point that you seem to be missing is that my case wasn't built on his bandwagoning Lenglon.  It was built on his vague posts and lack of substance.  I didn't focus my 'attack' on his admission of wrongdoing.  I merely included it in my 'attack' to see what his explanation for bandwagoning would be.  I was obviously dissatisfied with his answer overall, and I asked him to explain it.  I was also building a case against him.  I was also putting pressure on him with my whole post.  I wanted to see how he would react, and I got to.  It might not of been the reaction I was hoping for, but it was still a reaction.

Why would preparing a lynch case on Shinigami be bad?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:23:06 pm

Leafsnail: mind answering the question I asked Ford last week? it's really, really, really simple. What is your opinion of Day?

Dem: you've disappeared again, just like you did on Day 1. why do you keep doing that?

Shinigami: Why not stay in here if you feel like you need to improve your gameplay? This is a BM for a reason after all.

Either IC: How do you suggest reacting to replacements mid-game? is it any different from replacements earlygame or lategame? is it reasonable to react to a replacement with a mini-RVS phase to get a feel for how they play?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Tiruin on May 31, 2013, 10:47:51 pm

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(1) - Griffionday
• Demdemeh(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, griffinpup
• Vector(0) -
• Leafsnail(1) - Lenglon
• Not Voting(3) - Leafsnail, Demdemeh, TheWetSheep

TheWetSheep has replaced Shinigami_King

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 4, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130604T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

The rays from the skylights converge and form a cylinder of light, moving ever so slowly as the minutes pass by.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 10:50:18 pm

OK. I was not totally expecting being put in here this quickly, but whatever. Just a note, though: activity might be a problem for me, since school is ending in two weeks and the workload's getting intense.

I'll do a read-over and come back with more.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:56:08 pm

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 10:58:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:56:08 pm

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

I'll have to disagree on that point.  I'm fairly certain Griffy is voting Griffy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 11:01:53 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 10:58:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:56:08 pm

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

I'll have to disagree on that point.  I'm fairly certain Griffy is voting Griffy.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

griffinpup

I'm quite certain he is not.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 11:07:58 pm

 8). I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.  ;D

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Tiruin on May 31, 2013, 11:20:15 pm

I blame you both being warm and fluffy. Griffons... :I

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

OK, first of all Vector:

Here is an excerpt of pre-game talk about the new setup:

Spoiler: Posts 27-37 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 06:27:22 pm

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 06:41:12 pm

Huh, sounds good.

Quote from: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 06:45:02 pm

I am for that.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 07:35:53 pm

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

---

Quote

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 07:44:25 pm

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 07:53:36 pm

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 16, 2013, 07:55:05 pm

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:06:55 pm

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 08:18:17 pm

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:31:30 pm

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

The important parts are Vector's posts, but I decided to blanket quote.

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

You put that much thought into the setup, but didn't know there was a sane cop? I doubt it.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 04:02:06 pm

Regardless.  Whoever replaces Shinigami.  What are your current opinions and reads?  What do you think about your predecessors play so far?  Do you agree with his reads, or not?

I'll do a more full compilation of this stuff later. I just got back from a week-long trip and I'm tired. I can say one thing, though: Reading through his posts, I get a pretty strong scum read of Shinigami. I would totally pressure him on a bunch of things if he wasn't me and guaranteed town(for me, at least).

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 02:07:33 pm

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 31, 2013, 02:03:35 pm

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Is it wrong if I take this as a victory? :) ya, I guess it is.  Sorry to see you leaving King.

Yes it's VERY wrong to see that as a victory.  Pushing someone out of the game is not a victory for town; it doesn't indicate anything about your case other than that it was taken to harshly, and having to get a read on a replacement sets us back over a whole day of discussion with them it cools any leads on them and is in general BAD.  Why would you see this as a victory?  Was it a case that you were making up as you went along and you see his departure as validation that you are capable of faking it?

Does this make him scum? I see that comment as something that's quite independent of his alignment.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

General Reads List:

Griffionday: Slight lean scum. This is mostly because in Magic Mafia I got a very strong town read from him, but in this one not so much, but that could just be because of his increased lack of time. A few of his cases seem pretty weak, but that's something I often do as well when I don't have strong reads. There was that slip, too.

Lenglon: Lean town. Haven't seen too much from her, but she seems to be doing quite well.

griffinpup: Town. Brings up many good points, hunts well, and hasn't made many slips or tells.

Demdemeh: Null, hasn't posted enough to get much of a read on. Will look at him closer later hopefully.

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1. Her initial reasons for voting Ranger were erroneous, but she kept it there saying that we had to lynch him to get rid of the WIFOM. This isn't true; I'll explain why below.

Leafsnail/Ford: Null read off Ford(I really need to read back more), and Leafsnail just replaced in, so I'll hold off judging for now.

---

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

*Sigh* Remembered Vector's gone for a while. Too bad.

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:51:46 pm

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

That's a pretty big inconsistency, isn't it? Why did you say he basically claimed mafia, then say "he may very well be mafia"? Also, the first bold part seems like a scum capitalizing on a town's unlucky slip. This meshes with my scum read on Vector pretty well, actually, since Vector was the first person to point this out, and that's the kind of thing a scumpartner would say to give extra weight to the case.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Player Replacement Requested
Post by: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I'll try and read the whole thread tomorrow, but for now I'm focusing on the period from when RangerCado claimed (Reply #365) to when he was lynched (Reply #480).

I've already expressed my opinions on Vector.  Now, something to keep in mind: the two mafia players knew that Cado was a cop.  I believe that the mafia would be highly reluctant to both vote for him for fear of looking bad later, but also that they wouldn't want to obstruct the lynch too hard due to the fact that otherwise they'd have to waste their nightkill on him.

With that in mind, I think Demdemeh is strongly scummy too, and I would support a lynch on him(?) too.  He loudly talked about how bad the claim was and kept saying that he was probably a mafia role cop, but then didn't vote him.  Considering that the mafia role cop is the most desirable lynch in the game that makes no sense at all.  Furthermore:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

I'm tired of waiting, too. Shorten.

The person he was voting for clearly wasn't getting lynched.  So why did he ask for a shorten?  If he wanted RangerCado to be lynched, he should have voted for him while making the shorten request.  If he wanted Griffionday to be lynched he should have been trying to convince other people to vote him, and certainly should not have been trying to prevent that from happening by shortening the day.  As it is I cannot see any explanation for his actions other than "He was scum and didn't want to get into trouble for placing the last vote on a cop".

Lastly, I find Vector's silence on this whole matter baffling.  I think she may have been hoping that with Ford quiet, nobody would notice what Dem was doing.

As a quick side note, I found Lenglon's reaction to RangerCado's claim fairly convincing, while Shinigami's seems a little more forced.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:23:06 pm

Leafsnail: mind answering the question I asked Ford last week? it's really, really, really simple. What is your opinion of Day?

It took me a while to realize that Griffionday and griffinpup are two separate players.  Now that I am aware they are, I strongly lean towards Griffionday as town.  His thought processes seem honest and his clear statement of reads, particularly town reads, is something scum usually does not like to do.  His buddying with Vector early on was kindof weird, but I think Vector is probably scum and there's no reason at all to buddy up to your partner.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 31, 2013, 10:23:06 pm

Either IC: How do you suggest reacting to replacements mid-game? is it any different from replacements earlygame or lategame? is it reasonable to react to a replacement with a mini-RVS phase to get a feel for how they play?

You don't really need "random" votes - just asking them about the important aspects of the game should be sufficient.  If lynches have already happened it would be good to ask them what their opinion on the lynch and the people driving it are, for instance.

For early game replacements a couple of RVS type questions would probably the best way to approach it.  Late game replacements are sortof painful, and it would be good to provide them with a summary of important events they need to look at first if the thread is really long.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 01, 2013, 06:51:02 pm

Wet Sheep:  it'd be silly to hold you accountable for shinigami not answering questions, so Unvote.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2013, 07:06:51 pm

Unvote: question answered

Leafsnail: you seem to strongly disagree with vector's reasoning about lynching ranger yesterday, could you please answer the questions I asked her and pup back then? or at least, whichever ones you have a different answer too from theirs.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
Post by: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 08:35:58 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 05:48:56 am

Pup: what about the case where we have no jailkeeper after all? I dont want him to become "confirmed town" through the silence of a nonexistant jailkeeper.

I don't know what this means.  You would want to lynch a guy who can prove himself to be town later?

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:30:04 pm

Pup: how is having the real cop out themselves on day 1, before they've been able to get a single read, helpful to us?

It isn't.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:30:04 pm

It will let us solidify our read of Ranger, but it will also out them to the remaining scum, and we'll be in almost the exact same situation as before Ranger claimed.

Yes.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:30:04 pm

If we can figure out Ranger's alignment without leaving ourselves with no power roles, then we'll be in much better shape. Even if we end up leaving Ranger alive for now, can't the real cop counterclaim on day 2 or 3, after having gotten some reads, and maybe found the other scum as well?

Yes.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 26, 2013, 01:30:04 pm

Is it really worth it to leave the town without power roles to kill one scum?

Later on, yes.  On day one, no.

Quote from: Lenglon on May 27, 2013, 12:44:30 am

Pup:Under what conditions, assuming that there are no further roleclaims, would you lynch ranger? He seems very scummy to me, but I understand why people would want to keep a power role in the game.

Lynching a cop claim day one is almost always a bad move unless there's a counterclaim (which there shouldn't be really).

If it's day two and there are two scum alive then they're a candidate.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Griffionday on June 02, 2013, 06:46:07 pm

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

First of all, the post you quote is mainly for comic relief.  Only my comic relief, perhaps, but comic relief none the less.  I agree with your points about why Shinigami leaving is bad.  If you notice, my conclusion is, that it is wrong to see it as a victory. Shinigami's replacement request comes out as a net loss in our quest to lynch the scum.

I think I see your reasoning now, at the time it seemed to be borderline self-congratulatory; I see it for the joke it is now.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

Now onto your questions.
Your first question is easily answered.  One reason too see this as a victory is that a problem, Shinigami's crappy play recently, will most likely be fixed.  A replacement is a great improvement over what Shinigami has been demonstrating over the past few days.  I am confused by your last question though.  Are you implying that my case against Shinigami was fake or made up?  Or that I don't really know how to play and am just blundering along hoping not to make too many mistakes?

Interesting way of considering Shinigami's replacement.  I see the purpose of these BM games is to improve people's play, so shinigami's poor play should be attempted to be fixed here, rather than replacing him for a better player.  However, I can't disagree that it will make the job of hunting scum easier for us.

I was implying that the self-congratulatory nature of your comment implied that your case on Shinigami could have been made up; as I understand it it's harder to make cases as scum.  I don't see you as blundering along, you seem too proficient for that.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

I was illustrating the fact that whether bandwagoning existed or not couldn't be debated.  He admitted to it, and I was pointing it out.  I admit that I did put my answer to you in my article, where I should of kept it separate and purely to you, but the point is moot now anyways.  Shinigami isn't going to feel any more pressure from this ever again, and neither will his replacement.  Also, you don't get off the hook for doing something scummy merely by admitting to it, then say you're trying to improve.  Apologies don't change the fact that something scummy was done.  My plan on continuing pressure was to press this point depending on his answer and yes, force him to explain why he did so.  But again, the point is probably moot.

No you don't get off the hook for admitting to it; however, the act of admitting to it indicates something about how you observe it.  In Shinigami's case I personally felt that him admitting to it indicated that he was starting to realize that he was wrong to have done so; and felt that you could have began forcing him to explain why he did so sooner.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

But one point that you seem to be missing is that my case wasn't built on his bandwagoning Lenglon.  It was built on his vague posts and lack of substance.  I didn't focus my 'attack' on his admission of wrongdoing.  I merely included it in my 'attack' to see what his explanation for bandwagoning would be.  I was obviously dissatisfied with his answer overall, and I asked him to explain it.  I was also building a case against him.  I was also putting pressure on him with my whole post.  I wanted to see how he would react, and I got to.  It might not of been the reaction I was hoping for, but it was still a reaction.

I'm aware of that, and the fact that I disagree with your one point doesn't indicate that I disagree with your case as a whole.  I'm focusing on that one point as I see it as the weak point of your argument, and where I should comment on.

Quote from: griffinpup on May 31, 2013, 08:58:48 pm

Why would preparing a lynch case on Shinigami be bad?

It wouldn't be; however your comment seems out of place in a post that is primarily attempting to press Shinigami, as it's not something that he can really really respond to.

---

Sheep:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

Does this make him scum? I see that comment as something that's quite independent of his alignment.

It does not make him scum directly; however, it is a comment that would come from different places mentally as town or scum, so I feel it's a valid point to press to help solidify my read on him.

---

Tiruin:  Demdemeh has been off the site for the past 5 days, at what point should he be replaced?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 02, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

Bleh...  I spent all my energy on Shinigami and then he bailed.  Now I feel burned out.  What to do, IC's?

Griffionday:  OK, I also understand your points and acknowledge what you may have a different opinion on how I should of handled my accusation of bandwagoning.  Do you have any questions or specific sections of you post that you want me to respond to?  For now, I'll answer your original post.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 30, 2013, 08:02:45 pm

Griffinpup:
Out of curiosity; why do you consider admitting to bandwagoning to be a scum tell?  Because it seems to me that it'd be much like admitting to tunneling, they're essentially apologizing for their actions, indicating that they realize they were playing poorly and that they intend to play better in the future.

Not that bandwagoning isn't a scum tell, but you're focusing on the admission of the action as apposed to the thinking behind the action.

I consider bandwagoning a scum tell, and the fact that he admitted to it made it so it could be proven that he was bandwagoning.  If someone asked me why my opinion on Lenglon changed, I wouldn't say bandwagon, I'd show him the differences and improvements in play Lenglon made.  I didn't want Shinigami to be able to say these, as that clearly wasn't the actual reason his opinion changed.

Lenglon:  Who do you think looks most scummy currently?  When and how do you plan on pressuring them?

Demdemeh:  You're gone again.  I don't like it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 07:19:56 am

Everyone who isn't voting for Vector or Dem should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2013, 07:46:04 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(1) - Griffionday
• Demdemeh(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector,
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(0) -
• Not Voting(3) - Demdemeh, griffinpup, Lenglon

TheWetSheep has replaced Shinigami_King

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 4, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130604T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

Silence is all you hear in the brief lull in conversation.

..It is very silent.

---

Quote from: Griffionday on June 02, 2013, 06:46:07 pm

Demdemeh has been off the site for the past 5 days, at what point should he be replaced?

Prod sent. Prods also sent to the replacement queue..Err, sorry.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 08:27:31 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 07:19:56 am

Everyone who isn't voting for Vector or Dem should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.

Including you?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- IC Replacement Requested
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 09:09:34 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.
Tiruin just missed it.

Now stop being cute and start voting scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 09:10:10 am

EBWOP:

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Tiruin just missed it.

Now stop being cute and start voting scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 09:15:19 am

Extend

I refuse to vote for someone who isn't here and can't answer questions or defend herself in any way. If we're going to vote vector, we need to let her defend her reasoning.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2013, 09:18:06 am

Reminder: Do not post when tired. That's what's happening to me..sorry Leaf. And fixed.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 09:24:57 am

Right, short days.  Extend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 12:56:32 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 09:15:19 am

Extend

I refuse to vote for someone who isn't here and can't answer questions or defend herself in any way. If we're going to vote vector, we need to let her defend her reasoning.

I pretty much agree.  Extend.
Also, Lenglon, answer my questions.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 01:41:26 pm

I do sortof get the logic, but bear in mind that if you absolutely refuse to vote for someone who isn't posting then "Don't post at all ever" becomes the perfect scum strategy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

Extend

---

griffinpup: Unvote

Quote from: griffinpup on June 02, 2013, 08:48:55 pm

OK, I also understand your points and acknowledge what you may have a different opinion on how I should of handled my accusation of bandwagoning.  Do you have any questions or specific sections of you post that you want me to respond to?  For now, I'll answer your original post.

I consider bandwagoning a scum tell, and the fact that he admitted to it made it so it could be proven that he was bandwagoning.  If someone asked me why my opinion on Lenglon changed, I wouldn't say bandwagon, I'd show him the differences and improvements in play Lenglon made.  I didn't want Shinigami to be able to say these, as that clearly wasn't the actual reason his opinion changed.

That fairly succinctly addresses my issues with your post actually; the sentence felt out of place, but I can see what you were doing with it now. 

---

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 07:19:56 am

Everyone who isn't voting for Vector or Dem should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.

Dem: Is not an immediate threat.  He's been offline for almost a week now, so I doubt he'll be back to NK tonight, killing the other scum first can buy us more time.
Vector: She'll be back around Friday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279546#msg4279546), I'm busy beyond belief RL so questioning her can wait till she comes back. 

What the hell are you doing calling for a lynch of the two people who can't defend their case?  Especially the person who WILL be back soon?  Yes I know you asked for an extend, but that was after Ranger pointed out that you should have one.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 01:41:26 pm

I do sortof get the logic, but bear in mind that if you absolutely refuse to vote for someone who isn't posting then "Don't post at all ever" becomes the perfect scum strategy.

That is so not what is going on here.  Vector has already told us when she'll be back, and Demdemeh should be being replaced soon; you seem AWFULLY hopeful to force a lynch through before either of them can defend themselves.

---

Quote from: Tiruin on June 03, 2013, 07:46:04 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 02, 2013, 06:46:07 pm

Demdemeh has been off the site for the past 5 days, at what point should he be replaced?

Prod sent. Prods also sent to the replacement queue..Err, sorry.

Thanks

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

Dem: Is not an immediate threat.  He's been offline for almost a week now, so I doubt he'll be back to NK tonight, killing the other scum first can buy us more time.

1. Scum is always a threat
2. Tiruin would not allow the night to end with someone unreplaced and one scum remaining, as that would lead to possibly confirming the replaced slot as town/scum
3. I am voting for the other scum, Vector

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

Vector: She'll be back around Friday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279546#msg4279546), I'm busy beyond belief RL so questioning her can wait till she comes back.

Sure.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

What the hell are you doing calling for a lynch of the two people who can't defend their case?  Especially the person who WILL be back soon?  Yes I know you asked for an extend, but that was after Ranger pointed out that you should have one.

I am calling for a lynch of both mafia members.  I don't know what you mean about the extend - my most recent deadline has been on mafiascum which has 2-3 week days, so I forgot how fast deadlines roll around here.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

That is so not what is going on here.  Vector has already told us when she'll be back, and Demdemeh should be being replaced soon; you seem AWFULLY hopeful to force a lynch through before either of them can defend themselves.

Not true.

Your entire case on me seems to come down to "you forgot to ask for an extension".  You haven't actually addressed the detailed cases I have made against both Vector and Dem.  You should, because I think both of those cases are damning (especially Dem asking for a shorten even though the person she was voting wasn't in the lead), and if we really are to go with "We can never ever question people who aren't posting" then we are going to meaninglessly lynch a townie today.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 05:11:41 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 12:56:32 pm

Also, Lenglon, answer my questions.

don't be a moron, those weren't questions.
My prime suspect just replaced and most of my secondary suspects aren't even here, and I'm under siege for some reason in Toony's mafia. I don't have the time to do two-re-reads at once right now, and I'm already voting for an extension. I'll be questioning when I can be actually be answered.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

Dem: Is not an immediate threat.  He's been offline for almost a week now, so I doubt he'll be back to NK tonight, killing the other scum first can buy us more time.

1. Scum is always a threat
2. Tiruin would not allow the night to end with someone unreplaced and one scum remaining, as that would lead to possibly confirming the replaced slot as town/scum
3. I am voting for the other scum, Vector

1. Disagreed on account of him not being active at all: Yes he could just be logged out, but I don't think that's likely as he has shown up before as "active" without posting.  If he's not been active at all he very well could have forgotten about the game, meaning if we lynch the other scum we get a kill-less night.
2. That could only confirm him as town, and even then only if he wasn't overly scummy afterwards... I don't think Tiruin would stop the game just because of that.
3. Noted.  Your question was why we're not voting for Dem or Vector when our votes can be FAR more productively used to apply pressure to get reads on people who have replaced in.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

I am calling for a lynch of both mafia members.  I don't know what you mean about the extend - my most recent deadline has been on mafiascum which has 2-3 week days, so I forgot how fast deadlines roll around here.

Why were you calling for lynch votes when you thought we had 2ish weeks left?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 04:03:11 pm

That is so not what is going on here.  Vector has already told us when she'll be back, and Demdemeh should be being replaced soon; you seem AWFULLY hopeful to force a lynch through before either of them can defend themselves.

Not true.

-addressed later-

If we really are to go with "We can never ever question people who aren't posting" then we are going to meaninglessly lynch a townie today.

Could I get more detail on why that is not true?

Well, you cant really question them now can you?  If they're not here then you're questioning a wall, getting more and more suspicious of your target while allowing scum to run free.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

Your entire case on me seems to come down to "you forgot to ask for an extension".  You haven't actually addressed the detailed cases I have made against both Vector and Dem.  You should, because I think both of those cases are damning (especially Dem asking for a shorten even though the person she was voting wasn't in the lead).

Partly yes, but I'm more concerned about the way that you are tunneling the TWO people who are unavailable to respond, and the way that you are deflecting my case with bi-syllabic answers.  You have mentioned other people as possible scum, but you are only building cases on the two who aren't here.

Your detailed cases have yet to interact with your targets.  Seeing as you've only made a couple points for each of them; I'd hardly call your cases "damning" without interaction with the subjects.  Speaking of your cases;

Spoiler: Demdemeh: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

The person he was voting for clearly wasn't getting lynched.  So why did he ask for a shorten?  If he wanted RangerCado to be lynched, he should have voted for him while making the shorten request.  If he wanted Griffionday to be lynched he should have been trying to convince other people to vote him, and certainly should not have been trying to prevent that from happening by shortening the day.  As it is I cannot see any explanation for his actions other than "He was scum and didn't want to get into trouble for placing the last vote on a cop".

Spoiler: Vector: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Lastly, I find Vector's silence on this whole matter baffling.  I think she may have been hoping that with Ford quiet, nobody would notice what Dem was doing.

Almost completely conjecture, and nothing that doesn't scream scum groping around for something to build a case with.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 07:57:03 pm

a question is a sentence in an interrogative form, addressed to someone in order to get information in reply.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 05:11:41 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 12:56:32 pm

Also, Lenglon, answer my questions.

don't be a moron, those weren't questions.

Yes they were.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 05:11:41 pm

My prime suspect just replaced and most of my secondary suspects aren't even here, and I'm under siege for some reason in Toony's mafia. I don't have the time to do two-re-reads at once right now, and I'm already voting for an extension. I'll be questioning when I can be actually be answered.

You mention your secondary suspects, but don't say their names.  I'm assuming Vector and Demdemeh, considering they're the only ones gone?  Also, since when was Shinigami your prime suspect?  You might mean Cado I guess, but you NEED to specify. 

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2013, 08:04:06 pm

no, prime was ford, i count his replacement by when leafsnail showed up, not when ford asked for a replacement. secondary is dem, followed by day, followed by vector. shinigami seemed like town to me.

the best information i'm going to get about leafsnail will be from how leafsnail goes about questioning vector and how vector responds.  i also want to see dem and day finish their fight. both of those interactions are misssing a partner, so I'm waiting. also, I really should do a re-read, but i dont have the time to do it right right now. i'm focused on other things.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 03, 2013, 08:08:47 pm

No questions addressed to me, and my targets are missing. This is disappointing.

Lenglon: Why Ford?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Dem should probably be replaced.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

1. Disagreed on account of him not being active at all: Yes he could just be logged out, but I don't think that's likely as he has shown up before as "active" without posting.  If he's not been active at all he very well could have forgotten about the game, meaning if we lynch the other scum we get a kill-less night.
2. That could only confirm him as town, and even then only if he wasn't overly scummy afterwards... I don't think Tiruin would stop the game just because of that.
3. Noted.  Your question was why we're not voting for Dem or Vector when our votes can be FAR more productively used to apply pressure to get reads on people who have replaced in.

1 is destroyed by points two and three.  Firstly, it is very poor moderation to allow a player's absence to confirm a player's alignment/ prevent a scum kill, and Tiruin wouldn't do it.  Secondly, I am not voting for Dem so your point is entirely invalid anyway.

2 is incorrect - confirming a player as town due to something that isn't a game mechanic is something you shouldn't allow as a mod.  Same for confirming as scum.  The idea that we could get a kill free night because the last mafia member is absent is simply incorrect.

3. The ultimate purpose of your vote is to lynch scum.  I formed cases explaining why these two people are scum, and not a single person has commented on them.  If you have no problems with my cases then you agree that they are scum.  If you have issues with my cases then you should bring them up.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Why were you calling for lynch votes when you thought we had 2ish weeks left?

Because lynching scum is the aim of this game and there is never a bad time to do it.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Could I get more detail on why that is not true?

I explained in points 1, 2 and 3.  The evidence led me to them, so I went after them.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Well, you cant really question them now can you?  If they're not here then you're questioning a wall, getting more and more suspicious of your target while allowing scum to run free.

This feels like a failure of the BM teaching process.  Part of mafia is questioning people, yes.  But ultimately you also need to get scum lynched.  If you spend the whole day "questioning" you will basically always lynch town.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Partly yes, but I'm more concerned about the way that you are tunneling the TWO people who are unavailable to respond, and the way that you are deflecting my case with bi-syllabic answers.  You have mentioned other people as possible scum, but you are only building cases on the two who aren't here.

There are two mafia members in this game.  Therefore I am going after the two people who appear to be mafia together.  There is no third mafia member I can go after.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Almost completely conjecture, and nothing that doesn't scream scum groping around for something to build a case with.

This isn't actually addressing what I said at all - you are dismissing it without any actual argumentation.  They key points I would like you to talk about, if you want to challenge my logic:
Dem: Why would Dem not vote for someone they believed to be the most dangerous player in the game?  Why did Dem vote to shorten the day when there was no real consensus over who should be lynched, and when what little conensus there was went towards a person they weren't voting?

My answer is that Dem was scum, and knew the cop was getting lynched.  However, Dem didn't want to be associated with that lynch.  Do you have an alternative answer?

Vector: Why did she keep voting someone even after her (sole) original reason for voting him was shown to be wrong?
My answer is that she realized he was the actual cop, and still had to die.

Why didn't she bring up Dem's strange willingness to shorten the day?  She mentioned that Dem was scummy earlier for "playing to the crowd", but when Dem brought up the shorten request she simply went along with it.
My answer is that she didn't want to bring up something so damning for her partner.

Looking back on it, I also don't like the "Cado's probably town and the actual cop but we have to lynch him anyway because ~reasons~" thing she's got going on either.  Examples:
In #409 she says that her gut says Cado is town but he should be lynched anyway because
In #443 onwards she says that the most likely scumteam is Ford/Dem, but doesn't bother to question them and instead keeps trying to get someone she thinks is town (and therefore possibly the only town power role) lynched

This is a problem because attempting to distance yourself from a lynch you are voting for is a scumtell.  Scum knows everybody's alignment, and thus they know when a lynch they are pushing is going to flip town.  This means that they may try to use "damage control", so that they don't look so bad after the person flips town.  I think that's what Vector was doing.  I certainly cannot see any justification for voting someone you believe to be the town cop from a town perspective.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 09:35:54 pm

TheWetSheep:  What do you think about the explanation Demdemeh gave me to explain his first lack of ability?  Is this excuse a valid enough one to constitute me unvoting him?  This post pretty much sums it up.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:27:09 am

So, Demdemeh, if I could kind of wrap up your whole argument about your bad play before, it was just that?  You were just playing poorly, acting defensively, and not knowing how to push, and doing this not because  you were scum, but because you were merely inexperienced and, for lack of a better word, bad?  You've now improved your play substantially, and I do accept this argument for now.
Unvote

Thank you for the accurate and concise paraphrasing, griffinpup. That is precisely what I was trying to say.

Actually...  I guess I gave him his own explanation...  Oh well.  This is what he was trying to get at.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Tiruin on June 04, 2013, 01:31:38 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday
• Not Voting(3) - Demdemeh, griffinpup, Lenglon

TheWetSheep has replaced Shinigami_King

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 6, 2013. [Thursday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130606T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

The light rays focus and converge on the runed tablet set into the floor by the Keeper as time passes by, and as the last rays fall on the object, it begins glowing in a red light-

"Oh by the Light am I letting this opportunity rest!"

One of you smiles and gestures an excuse before stepping up and breaking a nearby mirror with several swift kicks, holding the largest glass shard and utilizing it to angle away the light from the tablet.

"I figure being left alone would lead to that--they won't miss another mirror anyway. It's a loophole in the Keeper's words. Hah. While it won't stop the light from hitting the runes sometime later, its better than letting it hit now. Pretty smart idea, eh?"

"Yeah, but then you'll have to act as the mirror."

"What's that supposed to mean?"

"Stand still, and hold that thing up. Hope your arms can take it."

"...At least I'm doing something!"

The Day has been extended!

---

BM XLI: In which the Mod messes up the # needed to extend or shorten!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Dariush on June 04, 2013, 02:58:05 am

/me unbanishes.
It is usually good manners to remove the votes on and by the person being replaced.
/me reselfbanishes.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 07:47:55 pm

Can we have an indefinite extension until we have a full roster of players?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2013, 07:50:24 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 07:47:55 pm

Can we have an indefinite extension until we have a full roster of players?

+1

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Griffionday on June 04, 2013, 07:54:10 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 07:47:55 pm

Can we have an indefinite extension until we have a full roster of players?

+1

I'll get back to you about the other post later tonight.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 04, 2013, 09:23:41 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 07:47:55 pm

Can we have an indefinite extension until we have a full roster of players?

+1

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 04, 2013, 09:47:46 pm

Also, Turiun, you may want to nerf your Spoiled Spectators.  Self banishing and unbanishing is definitely OP.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

1 is destroyed by points two and three.  Firstly, it is very poor moderation to allow a player's absence to confirm a player's alignment/ prevent a scum kill, and Tiruin wouldn't do it.  Secondly, I am not voting for Dem so your point is entirely invalid anyway.

2 is incorrect - confirming a player as town due to something that isn't a game mechanic is something you shouldn't allow as a mod.  Same for confirming as scum.  The idea that we could get a kill free night because the last mafia member is absent is simply incorrect.

3. The ultimate purpose of your vote is to lynch scum.  I formed cases explaining why these two people are scum, and not a single person has commented on them.  If you have no problems with my cases then you agree that they are scum.  If you have issues with my cases then you should bring them up.

1. You are however building a mental scum team with Dem, so my point remains valid.

2. So the mod should randomly NK someone?  Is that standard procedure?  I must admit the thought never occurred to me.

3. Yeah no one's commented on the content of your cases; because, the people who can do so without having to resort to speculation aren't here.  Considering how you just replaced in, I consider the fact that you were so quick to build cases on just the two players who were away and not broaden your net to include players here who you can demonstrate how to better get reads on.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Why were you calling for lynch votes when you thought we had 2ish weeks left?

Because lynching scum is the aim of this game and there is never a bad time to do it.

Hmm... I consider spending time poking people to see how they jump more productive, but on the other hand I have yet to win a game so I guess I have to bow to your experience.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Could I get more detail on why that is not true?

I explained in points 1, 2 and 3.  The evidence led me to them, so I went after them.

Sorry, I was asking why you building cases on people who were gone and then voting them in order/likelyhood of them returning in time to defend themselves wasn't indicative of scum trying to rush a lynch against town.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

This feels like a failure of the BM teaching process.  Part of mafia is questioning people, yes.  But ultimately you also need to get scum lynched.  If you spend the whole day "questioning" you will basically always lynch town.

And sticking your vote on someone who clearly said that they would be gone for a week is more likely to lynch scum?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

There are two mafia members in this game.  Therefore I am going after the two people who appear to be mafia together.  There is no third mafia member I can go after.

So it's your advice to completely ignore the people who you don't see as the most likely scum but with whom you can interact, and tunnel people who aren't here?  Actually; why do you thing tunneling a good thing, when I've mostly heard advice to avoid it?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 03, 2013, 05:57:43 pm

Almost completely conjecture, and nothing that doesn't scream scum groping around for something to build a case with.

This isn't actually addressing what I said at all - you are dismissing it without any actual argumentation.  They key points I would like you to talk about, if you want to challenge my logic:

-snip-

I don't want to challenge your logic for two reasons:

1. I don't see any problem with it a case, yeah it's based on conjecture, but I've no issue with using conjecture to apply pressure.  It also has several points I really want to know their answers to.  My problem is that it is conjecture, your case rests on the assumption that people play perfectly; which considering the point of this game is wrong.  I want to get their accounts for their actions before I lynch them, as if their answer for why they weren't perfect doesn't make sense or feels off then I'll feel justified in lynching them.

2. What you are asking me to do is create scenarios in which their actions make sense for town, which isn't something I want to do as that jeopardizes my ability to view their answers to your case impartially.  As it's your case I can't structure the pressure to set up scum bait so I'd really rather avoid handing them ways to manipulate me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

1. You are however building a mental scum team with Dem, so my point remains valid.

No it doesn't in any way.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

2. So the mod should randomly NK someone?  Is that standard procedure?  I must admit the thought never occurred to me.

The mod should not end the night until either the player returns or there is a replacement.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

3. Yeah no one's commented on the content of your cases; because, the people who can do so without having to resort to speculation aren't here.  Considering how you just replaced in, I consider the fact that you were so quick to build cases on just the two players who were away and not broaden your net to include players here who you can demonstrate how to better get reads on.

Secret: all scumhunting is speculation.  If you aren't prepared to speculate then you will literally never get anything done unless the scum comes out and confesses their guilt.  Furthermore, if someone is putting together a lynching case then you should weigh in on it.

In addition, if you look back at when I accused Dem it wasn't at all obvious at that point that Dem had vanished off the face of the earth.  I questioned Dem fully expecting an answer, and there was no way I could magically predict that they had vanished rather than had taken a little while to realize that the night had ended.  And while Vector had announced a week break, I did't see that as a problem because a) she'd been posting a bit anyway up till when I posted and b) she could answer those questions when she came back in a week.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

Hmm... I consider spending time poking people to see how they jump more productive, but on the other hand I have yet to win a game so I guess I have to bow to your experience.

To explain my point in more detail: trying to get someone lynched as scum helps you get reads, generally more than just pressing someone does.  Partly because they know you're serious, and partly because you get to see how everyone else feels about lynching that person (at least, you do if the game isn't totally consumed by apathy).

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

Sorry, I was asking why you building cases on people who were gone and then voting them in order/likelyhood of them returning in time to defend themselves wasn't indicative of scum trying to rush a lynch against town.

See above - I didn't realize Dem was gone (I don't think anyone did at that point) and expected a response from Vector at some point.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

And sticking your vote on someone who clearly said that they would be gone for a week is more likely to lynch scum?

If they performed actions indicative of being a mafia member?  Yes.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

So it's your advice to completely ignore the people who you don't see as the most likely scum but with whom you can interact, and tunnel people who aren't here?  Actually; why do you thing tunneling a good thing, when I've mostly heard advice to avoid it?

No.  It's my advice to go after the people you think are scum.  I guess I could ask some timewaster questions to people I don't think are remotely as suspicious as Dem or Vector, but I don't think that would be hugely helpful.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

I don't want to challenge your logic for two reasons:

1. I don't see any problem with it a case, yeah it's based on conjecture, but I've no issue with using conjecture to apply pressure.  It also has several points I really want to know their answers to.  My problem is that it is conjecture, your case rests on the assumption that people play perfectly; which considering the point of this game is wrong.  I want to get their accounts for their actions before I lynch them, as if their answer for why they weren't perfect doesn't make sense or feels off then I'll feel justified in lynching them.

2. What you are asking me to do is create scenarios in which their actions make sense for town, which isn't something I want to do as that jeopardizes my ability to view their answers to your case impartially.  As it's your case I can't structure the pressure to set up scum bait so I'd really rather avoid handing them ways to manipulate me.

These are both fair points, but if you feel that my cases have merit then I don't get why you're voting me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 05, 2013, 05:38:23 pm

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 03, 2013, 09:35:54 pm

TheWetSheep:  What do you think about the explanation Demdemeh gave me to explain his first lack of ability?  Is this excuse a valid enough one to constitute me unvoting him?  This post pretty much sums it up.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on May 25, 2013, 10:27:09 am

So, Demdemeh, if I could kind of wrap up your whole argument about your bad play before, it was just that?  You were just playing poorly, acting defensively, and not knowing how to push, and doing this not because  you were scum, but because you were merely inexperienced and, for lack of a better word, bad?  You've now improved your play substantially, and I do accept this argument for now.
Unvote

Thank you for the accurate and concise paraphrasing, griffinpup. That is precisely what I was trying to say.

Actually...  I guess I gave him his own explanation...  Oh well.  This is what he was trying to get at.

I see this as a pretty null-tell explanation. I mean, it could be true and he could be town, but it could just as easily be scum explaining away his scumminess with lack of experience.

---

Isn't the policy for inactive scum that the scum IC dictate the nightkill?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 05, 2013, 08:27:38 pm

Also, TheWetSheep, didn't Griffionday come out as second-scummiest when you gave your reads of everyone?  You could be pressuring him right now.  Why aren't you?

Title: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2013, 09:10:13 pm

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday
• Not Voting(3) - Demdemeh, griffinpup, Lenglon

TheWetSheep has replaced Shinigami_King

Nobody has PM'd me back..Demdemeh is due for replacement! Keestram, borno, if anyone PM's me before any of you do--they will take Demdemeh's place.

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 6, 2013. [Thursday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130606T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"Ok, I feel cold..can't anyone take my place?"
"No sire, you chose to stall it, you're consequence."
"Hah, right. So would you like to see someone end the same way as one of the Ithilien? Doubly so, for a Ranger?"
"...True. But you can't- and then the Keeper-..oh fine. Move over, I'm taking your place."
"You know, when she said something about the murderer fighting the beast and all, and given that this is the sunwell, I'm unsure if..."
"Come on, spit it out."
"Err, see that spider? I think it's photosensitive."
"Oh very funny. A spider that's afraid of its picture getting taken. I can see it very fine thank you very m-"
"No! No! Photosensitive. It's sensitive to light. The mirrors? Why would a sunwell be filled with mirrors?"
"It's a sunwell. It gets light from the sun as wells get water from the rain, or any aquiferous rock deep beneath the rock layer or soilbed. Granted, you can just angle the light rays at any of the mirrors above us and it will still prolong the time we've got. Until night falls..of course."
"I take it you won't mind a bit of expounding on why we don't have weapons, then?"
"..Err, providence is held in truth? Or something like that? Why're you asking?"
"Never you mind. Is that why we've got a spider?"
"Bloody hell will this be long."

The Day has been indefinately extended!
...until we've a full roster of players. :I

A ball of flame slowly reveals itself from the tablet.
"And here I thought we'd be alone. Hi Dariush, you ol' warlock, you."
"Oh not-..not him again."
"You know, I've finally found a use for that bucket of cleaning water."
"But it's still full."
"My point exactly."

---

Quote from: Griffionday on June 04, 2013, 07:54:10 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 07:47:55 pm

Can we have an indefinite extension until we have a full roster of players?

+1

I'll get back to you about the other post later tonight.

Oh thankyouthankyouthankyou.

Because I'm having net problems! :D

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 05, 2013, 05:38:23 pm

Isn't the policy for inactive scum that the scum IC dictate the nightkill?

Policy-shmolecy..there is no 'policy'.

Wow that sounded corny. XD

Expounding: It depends per mod, but that's not in my policy. However, I voiced nothing about that notion also. What you'd think of this is up to you--but I haven't enforced, or reinforced any notion of this kind. However-ever, it would be pretty hilarious and annoying that the scumteam would drop out, for then I'd be both laughing and crying. But this happened before, and it was sad.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 01:55:40 am

I've been neglecting this because toony's has been rather awesome to be in, and that's not right, despite how interesting toony's is. sorry.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 03, 2013, 08:08:47 pm

No questions addressed to me, and my targets are missing. This is disappointing.

Lenglon: Why Ford?

mostly his failure to give me anything to get a read on, failure to give any input about how to handle a day 1 cop claim, failure to answer even a basic question about Day, and just overall failure to be active... which was part of why he replaced.

I really shouldn't hold it against leaf, but it still means I don't have a lot of material to get a read from. I'm really looking forward to vector's return.

---

conditional replacement request
birdy, ranger, i'm not sure that I want to stay in this, I don't think I can properly commit to two mafia games at once. if either of you want back in, i'll replace to make room for you. birdy was a vanilla townie, so shouldn't have any privlaged information, and ranger never got inspect anyone, so he also shouldn't have unacceptable information. neither of you got a proper chance to finish the game, what with the way you guys died on day/night 1. why not take a second chance?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am

The mod should not end the night until either the player returns or there is a replacement.

This is just plain wrong.  Seeing as we have a jailkeeper, a lack of a NK doesn't necessarily mean that missing person X is scum; however, delaying to let a mafia member get back when the game was NOT delayed for other people would paint them scum through and through.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am

In addition, if you look back at when I accused Dem it wasn't at all obvious at that point that Dem had vanished off the face of the earth.  I questioned Dem fully expecting an answer, and there was no way I could magically predict that they had vanished rather than had taken a little while to realize that the night had ended.  And while Vector had announced a week break, I did't see that as a problem because a) she'd been posting a bit anyway up till when I posted and b) she could answer those questions when she came back in a week.

25 hours before your case on Demdemeh:

Quote from: Griffionday on May 31, 2013, 05:12:33 pm

Okay, so Demdemeh has been gone from the forums since before the night, and has yet to return.  I still think he's scum due to how he was managing his case on me; but we probably have an active scum.  Until such time as he returns or we end up with only one remaining scum I'm shelving the case on Demdemeh.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 05, 2013, 03:30:34 am

So it's your advice to completely ignore the people who you don't see as the most likely scum but with whom you can interact, and tunnel people who aren't here?  Actually; why do you thing tunneling a good thing, when I've mostly heard advice to avoid it?

No.  It's my advice to go after the people you think are scum.  I guess I could ask some timewaster questions to people I don't think are remotely as suspicious as Dem or Vector, but I don't think that would be hugely helpful.

So sitting around twiddling your thumbs saying "I have an active case, they're just not responding" is helpful?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am

If you feel that my cases have merit then I don't get why you're voting me.

Really?  My bad.

Ford was very lurky so I never got a solid read on him.  So I felt the need to press you to get a further read, I felt your cases were weak for lynch cases, and based on a very shallow read of the game, so that's where I decided to press.

Your responses have been interesting:  You've several times deflected my questions with simple answers ("Not true (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4292973#msg4292973)" is a personal favorite) that don't take the opportunity to teach the mechanics of the game.  Other times you've done the reverse and dismissed my cases based on the mechanics of the game, using them as a shield to hide your sloppy play.  In addition you've repeatedly insisted that you be judged solely by your cases as stand-alone items, rather than reflections of your focus in the game and as a part of your actions as a whole.  You also called for a bandwagon on a case that is based on a reaction to a shallow read of the game. 

In case you missed the memo YOU ARE AN IC, that means we are here as apposed to the more complex to get instruction from you on how we should play, to figure out what proper play should be.  We're watching you and learning from what you do, with the hope of better emulating proper form.

And you don't care do you?  I'm glad that you replaced in, but your interest is CLEARLY not in this game.  You haven't been paying attention (you missed a question adressed to the ICs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4291203#msg4291203)), you're ignoring almost everything that is going on, and you are willing to let town intrest die and assure an easy scum win.  You can't possibly be confident enough in your reads to be 100% sure that Vector and Demdemeh are the scum team, but you are doing NOTHING to improve your reads on other players, or at least pretend to be town long enough to do so.  You seem to refuse to give us an example of what we should be doing in this case; I hardly believe sitting around twiddling your thumbs is ideal play.  You are KILLING town, I seem to be the only player remaining interested in winning this game, everyone else is either burnt out, missing, or soaked in apathy. 

Die, opportunistic, apathetic, lazy scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:22:35 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

This is just plain wrong.  Seeing as we have a jailkeeper, a lack of a NK doesn't necessarily mean that missing person X is scum; however, delaying to let a mafia member get back when the game was NOT delayed for other people would paint them scum through and through.

There is a 50% chance that no jailkeeper exists.  You are correct about your second point - that's why the mod should delay the end of the night regardless of whether the person that needs replacing is town or scum, if there is only one mafia member left.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

25 hours before your case on Demdemeh:

It had been one day at that point so you were jumping the gun.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

So sitting around twiddling your thumbs saying "I have an active case, they're just not responding" is helpful?

If I have an active case against scum yes, yes it is.  I'll try and address why I don't think filler cases against people you don't really suspect are useful below.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

Ford was very lurky so I never got a solid read on him.  So I felt the need to press you to get a further read, I felt your cases were weak for lynch cases, and based on a very shallow read of the game, so that's where I decided to press.

Only you still haven't explained why you think they're weak?

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

Your responses have been interesting:  You've several times deflected my questions with simple answers ("Not true (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4292973#msg4292973)" is a personal favorite) that don't take the opportunity to teach the mechanics of the game.  Other times you've done the reverse and dismissed my cases based on the mechanics of the game, using them as a shield to hide your sloppy play.  In addition you've repeatedly insisted that you be judged solely by your cases as stand-alone items, rather than reflections of your focus in the game and as a part of your actions as a whole.  You also called for a bandwagon on a case that is based on a reaction to a shallow read of the game.

I don't think that waffling in response to a question where a couple of words will suffice is helpful.  I don't need to be judged "solely by cases as stand alone items", but I do expect you to at least respond to them and their weaknesses rather than just repeatedly insist that they're shallow.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

In case you missed the memo YOU ARE AN IC, that means we are here as apposed to the more complex to get instruction from you on how we should play, to figure out what proper play should be.  We're watching you and learning from what you do, with the hope of better emulating proper form.

I've been trying to give you instructions on proper play, but you're just quibbling with every single point I make.  That's ok, but you can't then turn around and get annoyed because I'm not giving you the advice that you want to hear rather than the advice I feel actually helps.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

And you don't care do you?  I'm glad that you replaced in, but your interest is CLEARLY not in this game.  You haven't been paying attention (you missed a question adressed to the ICs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4291203#msg4291203)), you're ignoring almost everything that is going on, and you are willing to let town intrest die and assure an easy scum win.  You can't possibly be confident enough in your reads to be 100% sure that Vector and Demdemeh are the scum team, but you are doing NOTHING to improve your reads on other players, or at least pretend to be town long enough to do so.  You seem to refuse to give us an example of what we should be doing in this case; I hardly believe sitting around twiddling your thumbs is ideal play.  You are KILLING town, I seem to be the only player remaining interested in winning this game, everyone else is either burnt out, missing, or soaked in apathy.

I disagree with that assessment.  The thing that kills games is massive absences of the people who are most suspicious.

I don't believe in allowing people to get off the hook because they're gone.  If you do, there's a real danger that by the time their slot is replaced (and usually it shouldn't take this long) you've created a bandwagon against someone else who you didn't really suspect, and allowed the playerslot you actually think is scum to get away with it.  In the really bad case that the absence lasts a long time, I'd prefer to see people's reactions to the cases I have against the people I think are scum (helpful, as it can give alignment information on both the person responding and the person who the case is built against).

On the other hand, I think you're correct in that I haven't been giving enough time to this game (although in my experience this basically never works as a scumtell).  Having the two people who you suspect absent and probably getting away with it is demoralizing even for me.  I'll try and correct this error with my next post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:48:19 am

(Note.  This whole post mocks the inaccuracies of logic that Leafsnail has been exhibiting.)

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 07:19:56 am

Everyone who isn't voting for Vector or Dem should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.

In response to this...
Everyone who isn't voting Leafsnail should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.  Reading Griffionday's most recent post, it's obvious that Leafsnail is scum.  Instead of waiting for Leafsnail to reply to Griffionday's post, however, you should see if you can explain Leafsnail's actions himself.  If you can't, then he's obviously scum and should be lynched.  Remember though, don't pressure or even ask any questions to anyone else, just focus on Leafsnail.  Asking questions would never be productive, and would probably make you look like scum.  Tunneling is a far better option.  Oh ya, and don't forget to call for bandwagon votes and lynches.  There's no reason to vote someone unless you give scum an opportunity to piggyback on your arguments.

PPE:  This post was written right after Griffionday's.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:22:35 am

I've been trying to give you instructions on proper play, but you're just quibbling with every single point I make.  That's ok, but you can't then turn around and get annoyed because I'm not giving you the advice that you want to hear rather than the advice I feel actually helps.

Wait, you've been giving us advice?  Where?  All I see is ME ASKING YOU A QUESTION AND YOU IGNORING IT!  That really helped me be instructed.  The advice that I actually want to hear is advice on what I ASK ABOUT.  I request that you cite all the advice that you've given us the whole game.  Not only that, but your instructions on proper play.  Apparently that's in here too.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoilers are to avoid stretching the page out too far.  Please answer the questions directed at you.

Spoiler: Griffionday (click to show/hide)

Griffionday:
1. If you now regard me as the most suspicious player, how does this affect your other reads (eg on Vector/Dem who you seemed to be leaning on as scum towards the end of day one)?  In particular, who do you think I (or Captain Ford) am scum with?  Try asking that person to comment on your case against me.

2.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 01:56:28 pm

Just as an FYI to Shinigami: What you described Ford as doing is pretty much the definition of active lurking.

What was the purpose of this post?  Did you intend to agree with Shinigami, who you seemed to think was scum at this point?

3. In post #369 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4271837#msg4271837), you voted for Ranger.  What exactly about his claim (which, as I have stated before, I believe to be the correct move under the circumstances - better a claimed living cop than an unclaimed lynched one) made him worth voting?  Why, in post #384 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272131#msg4272131) do you seem to be happy with lynching Ranger for being a fool rather than scum?  That said, I do agree with your later reasoning that leads to you unvoting him.

Spoiler: Lenglon (click to show/hide)

Lenglon: 1. Apparently I/ Captain Ford am your prime suspect.  Griffionday has been posting plenty on the subject of me being scum - why haven't you weighed in at all today, or indeed tried to ask your own questions of me?  Why is your read on me contingent on Vector being here?

2. In post 404 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272931#msg4272931) you unvote Ranger, but also put the Finger of Suspicion on him while asking an apparently RVS question.  Why?

3. There seem to be two seperate cases where you defer to Vector's opinion - firstly when you unvote Griffionday after she tells you to back off, and secondly when she tells you to vote for Ranger.  Why did you yield to her opinion in both cases, when as far as I can tell you don't have a townread on her?

Lastly, I would like to strongly advise you not to seek replacement if you're a townie, even if you can only play this game to a limited degree.  The game has been disrupted enough by two replacements, a weeklong absence and a playerslot lying inactive for over a week, we do not need more discontinuity in players.

Spoiler: griffinpup (click to show/hide)

griffinpup: 1. Why are you piggy-backing off of Griffionday's reasoning without actually voting or accusing me?  Your last post essentially seems to amount to an insult and nothing more.  In fact, why aren't you voting anyone at all today?

2. In post #520 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4288595#msg4288595), you say that "it'd be silly to hold you [TWS] accountable for shinigami not answering questions".  However, SK and TWS definitely have the same alignment.  So, if SK did something scummy, would that not also imply that TWS is scum?

3. You are not voting, nor do you appear to be trying to change anyone's mind.  Does that mean you are happy with the votecount as it currently stands, pointing towards a Vector lynch?  If not, why aren't you trying to change it?

Lastly, I think I have to some degree answered your question - you can keep going after the person and ask them to try and explain why their predecessor may have acted the way they did, as well as other players.  It's obviously less good than having the actual person there to explain themselves, but it's better than allowing their predecessor to get away with scummy actions.

Spoiler: Dem's replacement (click to show/hide)

Demdemeh's replacement: I think I've already made most of my questions clear, and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.  However, I would like to ask Dem's eventual replacement to speculate on why Dem would not vote for someone they believed to be the mafia rolecop, and why they made a shorten request when the vote was not in their favour.

Spoiler: TheWetSheep (click to show/hide)

TheWetSheep (formerly Shinigami_King): 1. I am sympathetic to having your prime suspect missing, but could you not at least ask other people what they think about that suspect, or chase up your secondary suspect (Griffionday)/null read (me)?

2. Have you got a read on Dem yet?

Spoiler: Vector (click to show/hide)

Vector: I think I have already made my questions clear to some degree, but the main things I want to know are
1. Why did you advocate the Ranger lynch?  There are two aspects to this I find particularly strange:
a) Several times you state that Ranger is not amongst your prime suspects, and probably is the real cop.  However, you seem to imply there's some kind of hidden reason why you should lynch someone even if you believe them to be the strongest town role in the game.  What is this reason?  Does it really outweigh the fact that you're killing the town's most reliable means of finding scum?

b) Four other players (birdy51, griffinpup, Griffionday and Lenglon) all arrived at the conclusion that lynching a cop claim day one is not a tactically sound move.  However, not only did you fail to arrive at this conclusion yourself (which I believe you to be more than capable of doing), you also failed to properly engage with any of the arguments these four players made with regards to not lynching a cop day one.  You did jump in with a quick "gotcha" on Griffionday accidentally saying town instead of scum, and attacked the flaws in Lenglon's less developed argument, but you didn't actually attempt to respond to the wider argument about lynching a cop claim day one being a bad move.  Why?

2. In post #456 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4277162#msg4277162), you call Dem scummy.  However, why did you only bring up this comparatively minor point when Dem was at that point not voting for someone they had repeatedly stated they thought was the mafia rolecop?  Furthermore, didn't you think it odd that they agreed to shorten at the time they did?

I'll answer your request in a new post, griffin, this one is getting unwieldy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:16:16 am

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:48:19 am

Wait, you've been giving us advice?  Where?  All I see is ME ASKING YOU A QUESTION AND YOU IGNORING IT!  That really helped me be instructed.  The advice that I actually want to hear is advice on what I ASK ABOUT.

I'd suggest bolding or otherwise emphasizing questions you have for people, particularly if you're not using their actual name - it's easy to have it not register in their mind otherwise.  I think I've to some degree answered you question in my responses to Gday and a very similar question Lenglon asked, but I invite you to look at the response I've given in my above post.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:48:19 am

I request that you cite all the advice that you've given us the whole game.  Not only that, but your instructions on proper play.  Apparently that's in here too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Hey, everyone.  I should really get back to packing, but first: lynching RangerCado was a really bad move.  There is no point at all in lynching a cop claim day one, and that applies double if the cop may the only town power role and the mafia has no roleblocker.

Don't lynch cop claims day one

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:48:19 am

You don't really need "random" votes - just asking them about the important aspects of the game should be sufficient.  If lynches have already happened it would be good to ask them what their opinion on the lynch and the people driving it are, for instance.

How to deal with replacements

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 08:35:58 pm

More stuff about lynching or not lynching cop claims

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 01:41:26 pm

I do sortof get the logic, but bear in mind that if you absolutely refuse to vote for someone who isn't posting then "Don't post at all ever" becomes the perfect scum strategy.

Don't let scum get away with it because they're not posting - I continue on this theme in a lot of posts responding to Gday

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

2. Tiruin would not allow the night to end with someone unreplaced and one scum remaining, as that would lead to possibly confirming the replaced slot as town/scum

Don't think that inactive scum will give you a night with no kills, Gday quibbles with this so I talk about it in several other posts too.

I have also in several posts attempted to bring up the idea that you should actively push for lynches on people you think are scum, and this is both better at lynching scum and getting reads (people are less able to fake a town response if they know they are in danger).  For example

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

This feels like a failure of the BM teaching process.  Part of mafia is questioning people, yes.  But ultimately you also need to get scum lynched.  If you spend the whole day "questioning" you will basically always lynch town.

I am aware my advice is different from what you're used to (which is why you spent a post mocking it without any actual argumentation against it), but that doesn't mean I haven't been giving it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoiler: Lenglon (click to show/hide)

Lenglon: 1. Apparently I/ Captain Ford am your prime suspect.  Griffionday has been posting plenty on the subject of me being scum - why haven't you weighed in at all today, or indeed tried to ask your own questions of me?  Why is your read on me contingent on Vector being here?

2. In post 404 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272931#msg4272931) you unvote Ranger, but also put the Finger of Suspicion on him while asking an apparently RVS question.  Why?

3. There seem to be two seperate cases where you defer to Vector's opinion - firstly when you unvote Griffionday after she tells you to back off, and secondly when she tells you to vote for Ranger.  Why did you yield to her opinion in both cases, when as far as I can tell you don't have a townread on her?

Lastly, I would like to strongly advise you not to seek replacement if you're a townie, even if you can only play this game to a limited degree.  The game has been disrupted enough by two replacements, a weeklong absence and a playerslot lying inactive for over a week, we do not need more discontinuity in players.

1) because my reasons for being suspicious of Ford were pretty horrible in retrospect, and I'm worried that i'll prejudice myself one way or the other by questioning you too much before Vector gets back. also, I still haven't done that re-read.

2) because I was making an on-the-spot decision to not lynch a claimed cop without a counterclaim, but I still thought he was scum. the RVS question was to apply pressure on his hypothetical scumbuddy. at the time I was gearing up for a re-read and interaction-based scumhunt.

3) the first time, it was because I knew I was emotionally compromised before making the post she referred too, and based on Day's response he wasn't feeling pressured at all by my actions. this meant I wasn't going to convince anyone of his scummyness in ,my current state, nor was I making progress in pressuring him into revealing anything new to show his scummyness. I also was quite frankly fed up with the situation, and I have trouble getting accurate reads on people in general while I'm mad. her suggestion to take a break made sense.

the second time... well, to be quite frank, it was what I wanted to hear. I was fully convinced that Ranger was scum, and I honestly thought that we were wasting our time keeping him alive for an extra day. When I was given a reason to go ahead and vote him despite his claim, I jumped on it. Evidently that was a mistake, although I did ask ford for his input, and his failure to say anything on the subject is part of why I want to be suspicious of him. of course, that's him not being active while requesting a replacement because he can't be active, so... yeah.

also, in general, my read on her has been that I can't get a read on her, but she's been the only IC here. I hadn't found her doing anything scummy, but I wasn't expecting to ever find her doing anything scummy. so when I had to ask an IC a question, I went to her, and trusted her judgement as an IC, because I figured that even if she was scum, she would still give good advice because there were so many eyes watching her every move. I wasn't expecting her to turn out of be scum, I just knew that if everyone else read to me as town, that she would have to be the scum by process of elimination, even if she didn't read as scum to me, or even if she read as town to me.

I don't get the same feel from you by the way, and I'm not sure if that's a scumtell or a towntell, but I think it's one of the two. I suspect either you or Vector is scum, but not both, and I don't know which yet. I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations.

Last) ... fine. remove conditional replacement request

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Toaster on June 06, 2013, 01:31:56 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 05, 2013, 05:38:23 pm

Isn't the policy for inactive scum that the scum IC dictate the nightkill?

Bwahaha.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoiler: griffinpup (click to show/hide)

griffinpup: 1. Why are you piggy-backing off of Griffionday's reasoning without actually voting or accusing me?  Your last post essentially seems to amount to an insult and nothing more.  In fact, why aren't you voting anyone at all today?

2. In post #520 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4288595#msg4288595), you say that "it'd be silly to hold you [TWS] accountable for shinigami not answering questions".  However, SK and TWS definitely have the same alignment.  So, if SK did something scummy, would that not also imply that TWS is scum?

3. You are not voting, nor do you appear to be trying to change anyone's mind.  Does that mean you are happy with the votecount as it currently stands, pointing towards a Vector lynch?  If not, why aren't you trying to change it?

Lastly, I think I have to some degree answered your question - you can keep going after the person and ask them to try and explain why their predecessor may have acted the way they did, as well as other players.  It's obviously less good than having the actual person there to explain themselves, but it's better than allowing their predecessor to get away with scummy actions.

1.  I don't necessarily think that you are scum.  I just think that you are a lazy IC.  My last post was to illustrate your bad, but not necessarily scummy, play and reasoning.    Griffionday has made a few good points, and yes, I borrowed a few of these in my last post.  I wouldn't actually call it piggy-backing, because I'm not actually voting you or making a case on you.

2.  My argument between Shinigami was based on his empty posts and vague statements.  Since Shinigami bailed, I can't press him anymore on those vague opinions or empty posts.  A conversation about these would go about like this. 

Spoiler: The Conversation (click to show/hide)

"Why was Shini's posts so empty?"
"Because he had no time."
"Prove it."
"He asked for a replacement for that reason."
"OK.  Why did Shini have this opinion?"
"I don't know.  Here's mine."

Since pretty much all of Shini's behavior can''t be explained by his replacement or can be explained by Shini's lack of time, questioning TWS about this would be futile.

3.  We are at an infinite extension, therefore I'm taking my time cementing my opinions and deciding who I think is scum.  I'll have to see how Vector reacts when he gets back until I make a judgement call on whether or not he should be lynched.  I'm not going to defend him however, seeing as he'll be perfectly capable of doing that himself when he gets back.  I disagree with your idea that you should be voting someone or defending someone, but have no middle ground.  I'm not going to be pressured into voting Vector, nor am I going to start defending everyone that I'm not currently voting.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:16:16 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Hey, everyone.  I should really get back to packing, but first: lynching RangerCado was a really bad move.  There is no point at all in lynching a cop claim day one, and that applies double if the cop may the only town power role and the mafia has no roleblocker.

Don't lynch cop claims day one

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:48:19 am

You don't really need "random" votes - just asking them about the important aspects of the game should be sufficient.  If lynches have already happened it would be good to ask them what their opinion on the lynch and the people driving it are, for instance.

How to deal with replacements

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 08:35:58 pm

More stuff about lynching or not lynching cop claims

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 01:41:26 pm

I do sortof get the logic, but bear in mind that if you absolutely refuse to vote for someone who isn't posting then "Don't post at all ever" becomes the perfect scum strategy.

Don't let scum get away with it because they're not posting - I continue on this theme in a lot of posts responding to Gday

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:27:37 pm

2. Tiruin would not allow the night to end with someone unreplaced and one scum remaining, as that would lead to possibly confirming the replaced slot as town/scum

Don't think that inactive scum will give you a night with no kills, Gday quibbles with this so I talk about it in several other posts too.

I have also in several posts attempted to bring up the idea that you should actively push for lynches on people you think are scum, and this is both better at lynching scum and getting reads (people are less able to fake a town response if they know they are in danger).  For example

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

This feels like a failure of the BM teaching process.  Part of mafia is questioning people, yes.  But ultimately you also need to get scum lynched.  If you spend the whole day "questioning" you will basically always lynch town.

I am aware my advice is different from what you're used to (which is why you spent a post mocking it without any actual argumentation against it), but that doesn't mean I haven't been giving it.

Also, you advice is always either part of a case or a direct response to a question.  You never seem to offer it unless prompted or it makes your case stronger.  I never noticed your 'advice' abut the lynching of the cop day one because that was your main case on Vector.  Your misquoted example was a response to a direct question from Lenglon, which you gave a good answer too.  Your next example is actually unsolicited advice, which is apparently unusual for you.  Your 'quibble' with Griffy was actually initiated by him, not you.  In fact, you didn't even clear it up.  Your last point... I mean your last piece of 'advice', was merely a direct disagreement with Griffy on one of his points.  All of my points come together to see that you gave two actual pieces of advice while you claimed six.  Why do you consider points made in cases to be advice?  Are you planning on only giving advice to people who ask for it?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 06:39:38 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

1) because my reasons for being suspicious of Ford were pretty horrible in retrospect, and I'm worried that i'll prejudice myself one way or the other by questioning you too much before Vector gets back. also, I still haven't done that re-read.

I accept your point regarding Ford, but what do you mean by prejudicing yourself?

Quote from: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

3) the first time, it was because I knew I was emotionally compromised before making the post she referred too, and based on Day's response he wasn't feeling pressured at all by my actions. this meant I wasn't going to convince anyone of his scummyness in ,my current state, nor was I making progress in pressuring him into revealing anything new to show his scummyness. I also was quite frankly fed up with the situation, and I have trouble getting accurate reads on people in general while I'm mad. her suggestion to take a break made sense.

I acknowledge it.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

2) because I was making an on-the-spot decision to not lynch a claimed cop without a counterclaim, but I still thought he was scum. the RVS question was to apply pressure on his hypothetical scumbuddy. at the time I was gearing up for a re-read and interaction-based scumhunt.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

the second time... well, to be quite frank, it was what I wanted to hear. I was fully convinced that Ranger was scum, and I honestly thought that we were wasting our time keeping him alive for an extra day. When I was given a reason to go ahead and vote him despite his claim, I jumped on it. Evidently that was a mistake, although I did ask ford for his input, and his failure to say anything on the subject is part of why I want to be suspicious of him. of course, that's him not being active while requesting a replacement because he can't be active, so... yeah.

I see.  That seems fairly credible.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 06, 2013, 10:52:42 am

also, in general, my read on her has been that I can't get a read on her, but she's been the only IC here. I hadn't found her doing anything scummy, but I wasn't expecting to ever find her doing anything scummy. so when I had to ask an IC a question, I went to her, and trusted her judgement as an IC, because I figured that even if she was scum, she would still give good advice because there were so many eyes watching her every move. I wasn't expecting her to turn out of be scum, I just knew that if everyone else read to me as town, that she would have to be the scum by process of elimination, even if she didn't read as scum to me, or even if she read as town to me.

I don't get the same feel from you by the way, and I'm not sure if that's a scumtell or a towntell, but I think it's one of the two. I suspect either you or Vector is scum, but not both, and I don't know which yet. I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations.

I understand the general thrust of your reasoning, but I'd be wary of falling into a "one of the ICs must be scum because that happens fairly often" trap.  I'd also advise you to be more wary of players you can't get any kind of read on.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

1.  I don't necessarily think that you are scum.  I just think that you are a lazy IC.  My last post was to illustrate your bad, but not necessarily scummy, play and reasoning.    Griffionday has made a few good points, and yes, I borrowed a few of these in my last post.  I wouldn't actually call it piggy-backing, because I'm not actually voting you or making a case on you.

Ok, but the aim of the game is to find scum rather than bad ICs.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

2.  My argument between Shinigami was based on his empty posts and vague statements.  Since Shinigami bailed, I can't press him anymore on those vague opinions or empty posts.  A conversation about these would go about like this. 

Spoiler: The Conversation (click to show/hide)

"Why was Shini's posts so empty?"
"Because he had no time."
"Prove it."
"He asked for a replacement for that reason."
"OK.  Why did Shini have this opinion?"
"I don't know.  Here's mine."

Since pretty much all of Shini's behavior can''t be explained by his replacement or can be explained by Shini's lack of time, questioning TWS about this would be futile.

I don't think having no time causes you to active lurk - that's what makes it a better scumtell than lurking.  But if you really think your previous case a) cannot be used against the replacement to provide adequate answers and b) is not sufficient to build a lynch case on its own, then your aim should be to try and find new material from the replacement.  If they're scum then it should be possible to have them provide the material, and if not then it would be a bad thing to get them lynched anyway.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

3.  We are at an infinite extension, therefore I'm taking my time cementing my opinions and deciding who I think is scum.  I'll have to see how Vector reacts when he gets back until I make a judgement call on whether or not he should be lynched.  I'm not going to defend him however, seeing as he'll be perfectly capable of doing that himself when he gets back.  I disagree with your idea that you should be voting someone or defending someone, but have no middle ground.  I'm not going to be pressured into voting Vector, nor am I going to start defending everyone that I'm not currently voting.

It doesn't need to be explicit defense so much as commenting on the case.  Asking other people to talk about your suspicions is better than either waiting and doing nothing while your suspects are absent or attacking people you don't suspect, in my opinion.  Nobody seems prepared to talk about it, though.

Also Vector is female.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

Also, you advice is always either part of a case or a direct response to a question.  You never seem to offer it unless prompted or it makes your case stronger.  I never noticed your 'advice' abut the lynching of the cop day one because that was your main case on Vector.  Your misquoted example was a response to a direct question from Lenglon, which you gave a good answer too.  Your next example is actually unsolicited advice, which is apparently unusual for you.  Your 'quibble' with Griffy was actually initiated by him, not you.  In fact, you didn't even clear it up.  Your last point... I mean your last piece of 'advice', was merely a direct disagreement with Griffy on one of his points.  All of my points come together to see that you gave two actual pieces of advice while you claimed six.  Why do you consider points made in cases to be advice?  Are you planning on only giving advice to people who ask for it?

Apparently you have a weird definition of advice, where it stops being advice if a) somebody else wants it, b) it's directly relevant to lynching somebody or c) it's correcting someone who disagrees?  That's odd, because I think those three categories would include the most important advice.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

You didn't answer my questions.  Since it was probably because I didn't write your name in front of them, here they are, name included.
Leafsnail:
Why do you consider points made in cases to be advice?  Are you planning on only giving advice to people who ask for it?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 06:39:38 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

2.  My argument between Shinigami was based on his empty posts and vague statements.  Since Shinigami bailed, I can't press him anymore on those vague opinions or empty posts.  A conversation about these would go about like this. 

Spoiler: The Conversation (click to show/hide)

"Why was Shini's posts so empty?"
"Because he had no time."
"Prove it."
"He asked for a replacement for that reason."
"OK.  Why did Shini have this opinion?"
"I don't know.  Here's mine."

Since pretty much all of Shini's behavior can''t be explained by his replacement or can be explained by Shini's lack of time, questioning TWS about this would be futile.

I don't think having no time causes you to active lurk - that's what makes it a better scumtell than lurking.  But if you really think your previous case a) cannot be used against the replacement to provide adequate answers and b) is not sufficient to build a lynch case on its own, then your aim should be to try and find new material from the replacement.  If they're scum then it should be possible to have them provide the material, and if not then it would be a bad thing to get them lynched anyway.

... OK.  TWS, what's your current opinion on Leafsnail and his case on Vector, his communication with Griffy, and my current discussion with him?  I've been trying to get you to participate, so hopefully this works.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 06:39:38 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

3.  We are at an infinite extension, therefore I'm taking my time cementing my opinions and deciding who I think is scum.  I'll have to see how Vector reacts when he gets back until I make a judgement call on whether or not he should be lynched.  I'm not going to defend him however, seeing as he'll be perfectly capable of doing that himself when he gets back.  I disagree with your idea that you should be voting someone or defending someone, but have no middle ground.  I'm not going to be pressured into voting Vector, nor am I going to start defending everyone that I'm not currently voting.

It doesn't need to be explicit defense so much as commenting on the case.  Asking other people to talk about your suspicions is better than either waiting and doing nothing while your suspects are absent or attacking people you don't suspect, in my opinion.  Nobody seems prepared to talk about it, though.

You could specify that.  Asking people about what they think of your case is far different then demanding that they defend their own position if they're not voting the same person as you. 

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 06:39:38 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 03:01:53 pm

Also, you advice is always either part of a case or a direct response to a question.  You never seem to offer it unless prompted or it makes your case stronger.  I never noticed your 'advice' abut the lynching of the cop day one because that was your main case on Vector.  Your misquoted example was a response to a direct question from Lenglon, which you gave a good answer too.  Your next example is actually unsolicited advice, which is apparently unusual for you.  Your 'quibble' with Griffy was actually initiated by him, not you.  In fact, you didn't even clear it up.  Your last point... I mean your last piece of 'advice', was merely a direct disagreement with Griffy on one of his points.  All of my points come together to see that you gave two actual pieces of advice while you claimed six.  Why do you consider points made in cases to be advice?  Are you planning on only giving advice to people who ask for it?

Apparently you have a weird definition of advice, where it stops being advice if a) somebody else wants it, b) it's directly relevant to lynching somebody or c) it's correcting someone who disagrees?  That's odd, because I think those three categories would include the most important advice.

 
Apparently we do have different definitions of advice.  I will define and limit my definition of advice in this conversation to helpful content given to another player for the primary intent of increasing said players ability.  you definition is more along the lines of "information given to another player regarding the play of Mafia. 
Leafsnail:  Do you agree with the rough definition I gave to your usage of advice? 
I realize that I can't get exact because I'm not you.  Do you have an alternate definition to supply for advice in this context?
Also, Griffionday originally called you out on not answering my question.  In your response to that post, you said nothing about your lack of a response.  In fact, you said nothing about it whatsoever.  Why?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:19:27 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

Leafsnail:
Why do you consider points made in cases to be advice?  Are you planning on only giving advice to people who ask for it?

I thought I answered these?  Yes to the first, no to the second (as you saw there were multiple cases of me giving advice in cases where people hadn't asked for it).

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

You could specify that.  Asking people about what they think of your case is far different then demanding that they defend their own position if they're not voting the same person as you.

I think it amounts to the same thing, but ok.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

Apparently we do have different definitions of advice.  I will define and limit my definition of advice in this conversation to helpful content given to another player for the primary intent of increasing said players ability.  you definition is more along the lines of "information given to another player regarding the play of Mafia. 
Leafsnail:  Do you agree with the rough definition I gave to your usage of advice?

Yeah, but I don't think it actually disagrees with the definition you have given much.  I guess my advice is "advice that I think will help win this game, and thus provide you with experience to help in future games", though, which is a little different maybe.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

Also, Griffionday originally called you out on not answering my question.  In your response to that post, you said nothing about your lack of a response.  In fact, you said nothing about it whatsoever.  Why?

Immediately after making post #558, I began writing what would later become post #560 (I split them in order to avoid having a single dauntingly long post).  #558 was intended purely as a response to Griffionday, and I didn't think that answering your question in that one would have addressed the points he was making.  Instead, I decided I'd put the answer to your question in my next post (which took a lot longer than I thought it would, allowing you to put a post between what I had originally intended to be a double post).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:42:54 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:19:27 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

You could specify that.  Asking people about what they think of your case is far different then demanding that they defend their own position if they're not voting the same person as you.

I think it amounts to the same thing, but ok.

Asking about your case makes people think about the validity of your case and the comparative scummyness of the person accused.  Forcing them do defend their own position makes them more defensive, less open, and focused on themselves.  Instead of explaining points about your case, they'd explain their own choices.  They'd explain that they were voting someone else scummy, or have been too busy to make an informed decision.  They wouldn't necessarily talk about your case at all.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:19:27 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

Apparently we do have different definitions of advice.  I will define and limit my definition of advice in this conversation to helpful content given to another player for the primary intent of increasing said players ability.  you definition is more along the lines of "information given to another player regarding the play of Mafia. 
Leafsnail:  Do you agree with the rough definition I gave to your usage of advice?

Yeah, but I don't think it actually disagrees with the definition you have given much.  I guess my advice is "advice that I think will help win this game, and thus provide you with experience to help in future games", though, which is a little different maybe.

Ah.  That's where our disagreement is.  You see yourself giving advice by trying to win the game, kind of acting like an example, where I see you as trying to win the game while ignoring your responsibilities as an IC.  Is my analysis correct?  In the meantime, I'll get used to a different style of IC. 

Next portion of you post. ( too lazy to quote)
OK.  That makes sense.

P.S.  I know Vector is a girl.  :-[ I feel stupid for messing that up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

Sorry for low activity, school is really intense and will be until Tuesday. After that I should be good though.

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoiler: TheWetSheep (click to show/hide)

TheWetSheep (formerly Shinigami_King): 1. I am sympathetic to having your prime suspect missing, but could you not at least ask other people what they think about that suspect, or chase up your secondary suspect (Griffionday)/null read (me)?

2. Have you got a read on Dem yet?

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

... OK.  TWS, what's your current opinion on Leafsnail and his case on Vector, his communication with Griffy, and my current discussion with him?  I've been trying to get you to participate, so hopefully this works.

I completely agree with his case on Vector, as can be seen by me voting her as well. Because I agree with him, I think he is more likely to be town.

A lot of their conversation revolved around whether it was worth voting for people who have disappeared, and centered more upon game mechanics than opinion, and I don't think I can get much out of that. Griffion's vote is based mostly upon Ford's actions, but since Ford was really busy and felt the need to replace, I don't really see it as that scummy. I'll get back to you on your current discussion, should finish this post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 06, 2013, 11:36:38 pm

I'm back.

I'll post in a bit.  I'm emotionally drained from being in the thumping part of the Bible-Belt, and also very full of little bitey insects (chiggers).  So I'm taking a break first.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 07, 2013, 12:02:21 am

No.  Fuck it.  I am just too tired.

I will post tomorrow.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Tiruin on June 07, 2013, 12:34:50 am

...I love my replacements. They didn't reply.  :-\

The hunt begins.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:22:35 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

25 hours before your case on Demdemeh:

It had been one day at that point so you were jumping the gun.

So the fact that he had been off the forum for almost three days meant nothing?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:22:35 am

Only you still haven't explained why you think they're weak?

-snip-

I don't think that waffling in response to a question where a couple of words will suffice is helpful.  I don't need to be judged "solely by cases as stand alone items", but I do expect you to at least respond to them and their weaknesses rather than just repeatedly insist that they're shallow.

You hadn't read the game when you made your cases:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I'll try and read the whole thread tomorrow, but for now I'm focusing on the period from when RangerCado claimed (Reply #365) to when he was lynched (Reply #480).

Not re-read, just read.  You never comment on what your read indicated, and whether it improved your confidence in your reads, you just were like: "Yep we're good here, lynch these two now."

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Griffionday:
1. If you now regard me as the most suspicious player, how does this affect your other reads (eg on Vector/Dem who you seemed to be leaning on as scum towards the end of day one)?  In particular, who do you think I (or Captain Ford) am scum with?  Try asking that person to comment on your case against me.

My suspicion of you has not (as far as I'm aware) changed my read on anyone else.  As for who you are scum with, it could very well be anyone except Vector; as I doubt Tiruin would allow but the ICs to be scum.  So yeah actually my suspicion of you has lessened my suspicion of Vector; however I consider both of you of interest.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

2.

Quote from: Griffionday on May 22, 2013, 01:56:28 pm

Just as an FYI to Shinigami: What you described Ford as doing is pretty much the definition of active lurking.

What was the purpose of this post?  Did you intend to agree with Shinigami, who you seemed to think was scum at this point?

I wanted to see whether Shinigami was deliberately buddying Ford of if that was non-intentional.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

3. In post #369 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4271837#msg4271837), you voted for Ranger.  What exactly about his claim (which, as I have stated before, I believe to be the correct move under the circumstances - better a claimed living cop than an unclaimed lynched one) made him worth voting?  Why, in post #384 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272131#msg4272131) do you seem to be happy with lynching Ranger for being a fool rather than scum?  That said, I do agree with your later reasoning that leads to you unvoting him.

The fact that it came completely out of left field and was his ONLY response.  He nobody was shifting off of him, however only Birdy was really pressing him at the moment.  As he claimed rather than address birdy's pressure, I felt he was way over reacting about the cases on him.

Not rather than; I felt his over-reaction was scummy enough to warrant a lynch of him; however, as plenty of other people were focused on him I decided to focus on Demdemeh and see what I could dig up.

---

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on June 06, 2013, 11:36:38 pm

I'm back.

I'll post in a bit.  I'm emotionally drained from being in the thumping part of the Bible-Belt, and also very full of little bitey insects (chiggers).  So I'm taking a break first.

Welcome back!  I hope you trip was enjoyable despite it's problems. 

We seem to be in a touch of a quagmire; and your advice on extracting ourselves would be extremely valuable. 

---

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 08, 2013, 02:47:41 am

Yeah, sorry.  I'll post something useful soon.

I'm in a bit worse shape than I had anticipated.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 08, 2013, 09:42:47 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:42:54 pm

Asking about your case makes people think about the validity of your case and the comparative scummyness of the person accused.  Forcing them do defend their own position makes them more defensive, less open, and focused on themselves.  Instead of explaining points about your case, they'd explain their own choices.  They'd explain that they were voting someone else scummy, or have been too busy to make an informed decision.  They wouldn't necessarily talk about your case at all.

That would be fine too.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:42:54 pm

Ah.  That's where our disagreement is.  You see yourself giving advice by trying to win the game, kind of acting like an example, where I see you as trying to win the game while ignoring your responsibilities as an IC.  Is my analysis correct?  In the meantime, I'll get used to a different style of IC.

Sortof, I guess?  I don't think it's really possible to a (uncomfirmed alignment) player in a game of mafia and also to give detached advice, so if I see something that needs correcting I'll attack it as a player rather than pretending to be impartial.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

When will you have more time?

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

So the fact that he had been off the forum for almost three days meant nothing?

Not really, no.  They may have just not bothered to log in during the night and then had a weekend away from home.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

You hadn't read the game when you made your cases:

Not re-read, just read.  You never comment on what your read indicated, and whether it improved your confidence in your reads, you just were like: "Yep we're good here, lynch these two now."

It was a long thread, so I focused on the most interesting and relevant part of it to start with (cops claiming is gonna cause mafia members (who know it's the real cop) to react differently to townies (who don't), which helps distinguish them).  I feel the cases derived from that part were strong.

I don't think any of the rest of the thread does anything to go against a Vector/Dem scumteam - I think the way Vector completely failed to engage Dem, while doing so with basically every other player, throughout almost the entirety of day 1 is pretty telling too.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

My suspicion of you has not (as far as I'm aware) changed my read on anyone else.  As for who you are scum with, it could very well be anyone except Vector; as I doubt Tiruin would allow but the ICs to be scum.  So yeah actually my suspicion of you has lessened my suspicion of Vector; however I consider both of you of interest.

Your reasoning regarding ICs is incorrect.  A moderator will always assign roles to players completely randomly unless otherwise stated in the OP - thus both ICs being scum is no less likely than any other random pair of players being scum.  I'm pretty sure there was a BM where both ICs were scum, in fact.

I invite you again to consider who your secondary suspect is, considering the interactions of players rather than trying to outguess the moderator.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

I wanted to see whether Shinigami was deliberately buddying Ford of if that was non-intentional.

I understand what you mean, but I don't think it would fit the normal definition of buddying (which would be a mafia member trying to ingratiate themselves with a townie, rather than a mafia member simply giving an overly soft analysis of someone's play).

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

The fact that it came completely out of left field and was his ONLY response.  He nobody was shifting off of him, however only Birdy was really pressing him at the moment.  As he claimed rather than address birdy's pressure, I felt he was way over reacting about the cases on him.

Not rather than; I felt his over-reaction was scummy enough to warrant a lynch of him; however, as plenty of other people were focused on him I decided to focus on Demdemeh and see what I could dig up.

Makes sense.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 08, 2013, 10:44:02 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 08, 2013, 09:42:47 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

When will you have more time?

I have some now, but I'll start having lots of time starting Tuesday, since school's over then. I think I made a mistake; now was definitely not the best time for me to replace into a game.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

... OK.  TWS, what's your current opinion on Leafsnail and his case on Vector, his communication with Griffy, and my current discussion with him?  I've been trying to get you to participate, so hopefully this works.

OK, your discussion. You're attacking him for being a lazy IC. First of all, you yourself say that it's not a "you are scum" case but more just trying to get him to give better advice. Is he a lazy IC? I'm not sure. Like he says, it's probably mostly his different style. He's not using an IC voice and playing more like an actual player than a teacher. This may work better or worse than being very involved in teaching, I don't know. The way I see it, as long as everybody's play is decent and the IC isn't misinforming us, the IC quality doesn't matter a whole lot. (Disclaimer: I try to avoid hurting feelings wherever possible, so I'm actually very unlikely to flat-out call someone a bad IC, but still)

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on June 06, 2013, 03:06:32 am

And you don't care do you?  I'm glad that you replaced in, but your interest is CLEARLY not in this game.  You haven't been paying attention (you missed a question adressed to the ICs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4291203#msg4291203)), you're ignoring almost everything that is going on, and you are willing to let town intrest die and assure an easy scum win.  You can't possibly be confident enough in your reads to be 100% sure that Vector and Demdemeh are the scum team, but you are doing NOTHING to improve your reads on other players, or at least pretend to be town long enough to do so.  You seem to refuse to give us an example of what we should be doing in this case; I hardly believe sitting around twiddling your thumbs is ideal play.  You are KILLING town, I seem to be the only player remaining interested in winning this game, everyone else is either burnt out, missing, or soaked in apathy. 

Die, opportunistic, apathetic, lazy scum.

Hmm. If you were scum, do you think you would pay more or less attention to the game? I'm pretty sure that if I was scum I'd be be paying extra attention. I can see not expanding ones reads as a scumtell, but apathy? I can't see it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Tiruin on June 09, 2013, 01:15:32 am

..Still no response from our Replacement queue. Resending for the 5th time :<

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: zombie urist on June 09, 2013, 01:40:10 am

Umm... isn't that a little excessive?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 09, 2013, 09:05:58 am

I'd suggest opening it up to non-beginners at this point, an absence this long really hurts the game.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 09, 2013, 12:23:40 pm

And on that note, I'm unfortunately going to have to ask for a replacement.  I've been hoping it wouldn't be necessary, but... no.  I'm not up to any more arguing.

Sorry about this.  I wouldn't even think about it if I weren't fully depleted.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Griffionday on June 09, 2013, 12:35:01 pm

Quote from: Vector on June 09, 2013, 12:23:40 pm

And on that note, I'm unfortunately going to have to ask for a replacement.  I've been hoping it wouldn't be necessary, but... no.  I'm not up to any more arguing.

Sorry about this.  I wouldn't even think about it if I weren't fully depleted.

Please don't leave... It's looking like this day will drag on forever, you can probably take the week off an get back to us later.  I'm really interested in your replies to the current case against you, and you being replaced would essentially lock those cases out from being resolved. 

Of course if you must leave, you must.  You will be missed from this game, hopefully we'll get the chance to see you in action some other time when you are back to normal.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 09, 2013, 09:05:58 am

I'd suggest opening it up to non-beginners at this point, an absence this long really hurts the game.

  Agreed.  I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though.  (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 09, 2013, 12:45:02 pm

If it's an option to take a few more days, I'll do that.  Or maybe respond to posts a couple per day for the next little bit.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Lenglon on June 09, 2013, 12:57:23 pm

Quote from: Vector on June 09, 2013, 12:45:02 pm

If it's an option to take a few more days, I'll do that.  Or maybe respond to posts a couple per day for the next little bit.

go ahead and do so, the day is extended indefinitely anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 09, 2013, 01:02:08 pm

Okay, good.  This game is relatively low-stress... had to replace out of Toon, but I should be able to stick it out here.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 09, 2013, 06:31:10 pm

If you really need a replacement that badly, I could try my hand. It would have to be an absolutely last resort though. I'd be replacing in to my first game, I haven't read the thread, I'm on vacation, and Vector scares me (:3). I will happily re-read the thread and play my best if you do need me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 09, 2013, 07:50:47 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 09, 2013, 06:31:10 pm

If you really need a replacement that badly, I could try my hand. It would have to be an absolutely last resort though. I'd be replacing in to my first game, I haven't read the thread, I'm on vacation, and Vector scares me (:3). I will happily re-read the thread and play my best if you do need me.

...

Please do replace in >:3c  I have no idea why I scare you if you haven't read the thread, though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 09, 2013, 08:11:39 pm

Ok guys, I'm in. Awaiting role PM...

Quote from: Vector on June 09, 2013, 07:50:47 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 09, 2013, 06:31:10 pm

If you really need a replacement that badly, I could try my hand. It would have to be an absolutely last resort though. I'd be replacing in to my first game, I haven't read the thread, I'm on vacation, and Vector scares me (:3). I will happily re-read the thread and play my best if you do need me.

...

Please do replace in >:3c  I have no idea why I scare you if you haven't read the thread, though.

I have read other games. Specifically Pandar's near-flawless Not-So-BM and the recent Magic Mafia.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Vector on June 09, 2013, 08:12:54 pm

Um.  Well, you've seen me playing at my worst, then, so hopefully you'll get some better instruction here.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2!
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2013, 12:00:02 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday
• Not Voting(3) - nightcrafter27, griffinpup, Lenglon

nightcrafter27 has replaced Demdemeh


Day 2 has begun and will end at June 12, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130612T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"I don't think it'll be long enough, sirs and ma'am."
"And why not?"
"Look at the light. It's refracting..bending, something like that. Just look!"

And the words were spoken true. For at the apex of the sunwell where the sunrays came, the foremost mirror began shifting light and breaking it into a spiderweb of rays and beams, lighting up the lightless room and making it as bright as day. The runed tablet sparks back to life.

"Ok, ok. Good work. We've stalled enough though. However, one more problem."
"Dariush is still here, or we're all going to die?"
"That, and the spider is gone."
"Oh."
"...Oh."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector? How about Leafsnail?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: griffinpup on June 10, 2013, 09:04:32 am

Vector, when will you be able to post some content?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 10, 2013, 09:20:02 am

When I'm feeling a bit better?

My mental health isn't on a fucking timer.  I'll post, but for the love of god stop being such hassly assholes.  I'm really tired of people jumping on my neck going "HEY WHERE'S THE ACTIVITY" when I'm doing 2x what they are.  I'll be active.  It will be reasonable.  It will be sooner if you don't pester me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2! [ANY] Replacement needed.
Post by: Griffionday on June 10, 2013, 12:33:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 09, 2013, 12:35:01 pm

I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though.  (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)

Didn't happen, and won't happen today either, I WILL post something Wednesday I promise.

And Yay! Replacment.

Nightcrafter, you are awesome.  And don't worry; Lenglon and Shinigami both replaced into their first games (with varying levels of success, but I digress).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 10, 2013, 01:43:03 pm

Quote from: Vector on June 09, 2013, 12:45:02 pm

If it's an option to take a few more days, I'll do that.  Or maybe respond to posts a couple per day for the next little bit.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 10, 2013, 12:33:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 09, 2013, 12:35:01 pm

I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though.  (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)

Didn't happen, and won't happen today either, I WILL post something Wednesday I promise.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2013, 12:00:02 am

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 12, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130612T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extend

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 10, 2013, 04:45:11 pm

I still have ten pages to go, but now that I'm closer to present posts anyone with questions about Demdemeh's behavior should ask. Please keep in mind that I don't have any idea what he was thinking, so my guess might just be as good as yours.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 10, 2013, 08:35:55 pm

Extend, I guess.  This will be the last extension I vote for today, I don't think this game can handle any more.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 10, 2013, 04:45:11 pm

I still have ten pages to go, but now that I'm closer to present posts anyone with questions about Demdemeh's behavior should ask. Please keep in mind that I don't have any idea what he was thinking, so my guess might just be as good as yours.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Demdemeh's replacement: I think I've already made most of my questions clear, and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.  However, I would like to ask Dem's eventual replacement to speculate on why Dem would not vote for someone they believed to be the mafia rolecop, and why they made a shorten request when the vote was not in their favour.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Leafsnail

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Demdemeh's replacement: I think I've already made most of my questions clear, and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.  However, I would like to ask Dem's eventual replacement to speculate on why Dem would not vote for someone they believed to be the mafia rolecop, and why they made a shorten request when the vote was not in their favour.

I believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) and doesn't let up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279578#msg4279578), even when he knows the day will end (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279608#msg4279608) before  Dem reads his post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279652#msg4279652). For someone who isn't used to this kind of intensity:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

I’m actually not that assertive in real life, and I also said that I’m new to this level of focus in a forum environment.

Dem didn't really stand a chance, and ended up tunneling Griffy through he end of D1.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 28, 2013, 09:06:00 pm

You want pressure? All right.

What good reason would someone have to make THAT typo? What WERE you thinking, besides "What the hell, dude?!" when Cado roleclaimed? Why did you pick that moment to jump all over me? Because I still maintain that it looks an awful lot like your buddy is doomed, and you're trying to divert pressure, just as you accused me of diverting from myself to Shinigami. You haven't said an awful lot to Cado, actually, since he claimed. Everyone else has had a lot more to say, and you even commented on MY opinion; why did you think it was my purpose to apply pressure to him when all I said was that I didn't know if he was trustworthy?

I'm tired of waiting, too. Shorten.

Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279360#msg4279360) immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

If my interpretation of Dem's actions left anything out or was unclear, please tell me Leafsnail.

Now I have some questions and points of my own for you.

You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.

(again, my bolding)

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

As a quick side note, I found Lenglon's reaction to RangerCado's claim fairly convincing, while Shinigami's seems a little more forced.

Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 07:19:56 am

Everyone who isn't voting for Vector or Dem should be trying to explain how their actions make sense from a town perspective.

You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when I flip town? Who is your next suspect?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 08:19:27 pm

I guess my advice is "advice that I think will help win this game, and thus provide you with experience to help in future games"

Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

---

TheWetSheep

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector? How about Leafsnail?

I didn't quite get to Vector tonight, and I'd like to see her response to the questions posed to her as well.

I think that's all I'll be able to get in tonight. I've finished my read, and will go back and do more hunting tomorrow. And I do agree, Extend.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 11, 2013, 12:50:23 am

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:03:23 am

PFP

TWS:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoiler: TheWetSheep (click to show/hide)

TheWetSheep (formerly Shinigami_King): 1. I am sympathetic to having your prime suspect missing, but could you not at least ask other people what they think about that suspect, or chase up your secondary suspect (Griffionday)/null read (me)?

2. Have you got a read on Dem yet?

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here? Do you have a case on either Vector or me besides what Leafsbail has already stated? Do you think Leafsnail softballed you with his next question to you ("Wen will you have time?", IIRC)? I have posted my ideas on the reasons for Dem's behavior. Do you agree with them? If not, that parts don't seem accurate?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:05:41 am

These are the same questions, reposted because I had several spelling errors.

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here? Do you have a case on either Vector or me besides what Leafsnail has already stated? Do you think Leafsnail softballed you with his next question to you ("When will you have time?", IIRC)? I have posted my ideas on the reasons for Dem's behavior. Do you agree with them? If not, What parts don't seem accurate?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

I believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) and doesn't let up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279578#msg4279578), even when he knows the day will end (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279608#msg4279608) before  Dem reads his post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279652#msg4279652).

[etc]

What's that example got to do with anything?  Firstly it happens after the event I'm referring to, and secondly Dem probably never even saw it so there's no way it could influence his behaviour (and if he did see it he didn't post about it, so again it's irrelevant).

In any case, Ranger was in more danger of being lynched at the time of the events I was referring to - why should Dem have been panicking?  And further, I do not see why panicking would cause you to not vote a person you thought was the mafia rolecop or shorten the day at such a silly time.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.

If Dem wanted him lynched, he should have voted for him.  There is no meaning at all in pressure voting someone at deadline - you should always be lynch voting at deadline.  This applies double if someone is only leading by one vote - why not just make it clear Griffion was his secondary suspect while also locking in the lynch of someone he believed to be the strongest mafia role in the game?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279360#msg4279360) immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.

(again, my bolding)

I don't see his replacement as scum fleeing pressure.  I was referring to other players in general, who often basically hit a reset button in their heads when a player is replaced (which would be bad because we're running out of time and you are scum).  I feared the same could happen in this game.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?

Because I had two scumpicks, and there are two scum in this game.  It was also a weak gut feeling.

Unless it's clear that your top two suspects are not going to be lynched today, there's really not much point in pursuing a third (and in that case you're probably chasing a compromise lynch on someone you don't really think is scum but who you think is better than the alternative).

I guess the person who I regard as least town other than you and Vector is Lenglon but he's still pretty town.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when if I flip town? Who is your next suspect?

Lenglon.  But again, I don't think that will happen.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Because I want to see scum lynched.  If the town doesn't vote for the scum, the scum can come in later and use their votes to cause a no lynch or lynch a townie.  Kindof like what you just did by voting me with no reasoning at all.  I don't even think there's really anything to respond to here - you're saying that because I want to win, and that may mean I want to win as a mafia member, I'm a mafia member?  Or because I'm advising people to vote for the people who I think are mafia I'm mafia?

Also, you've tied up the vote (to save your partner) with barely any time remaining.  I'd suggest voting for an extension if you want to pretend that you have the town's interests at heart.

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 12:50:23 am

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

Can't you at least provide a one-liner summary, or an extension vote when the day is set to end before you come back to explain your vote?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:05:41 am

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?

If you think TWS is buddying me then that contradicts your vote - there's no reason at all for a mafia member to buddy their partner.  They already know their partner is on their side.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Leafsnail

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

I believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4269594#msg4269594) and doesn't let up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279578#msg4279578), even when he knows the day will end (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279608#msg4279608) before  Dem reads his post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279652#msg4279652).

[etc]

What's that example got to do with anything?  Firstly it happens after the event I'm referring to, and secondly Dem probably never even saw it so there's no way it could influence his behaviour (and if he did see it he didn't post about it, so again it's irrelevant).

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

In any case, Ranger was in more danger of being lynched at the time of the events I was referring to - why should Dem have been panicking?  And further, I do not see why panicking would cause you to not vote a person you thought was the mafia rolecop or shorten the day at such a silly time.

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.

If Dem wanted him lynched, he should have voted for him.  There is no meaning at all in pressure voting someone at deadline - you should always be lynch voting at deadline.  This applies double if someone is only leading by one vote - why not just make it clear Griffion was his secondary suspect while also locking in the lynch of someone he believed to be the strongest mafia role in the game?

I completely agree. Yes, he should have switched his vote to Cado. I don't know why he didn't, and the best reason I can think of is that his vote to shorten accomplished the same thing.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279360#msg4279360) immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

Its a fair point, but I don't think it was clear if Cado was a cop or not. I'm not talking about if Dem thought he was a town cop. I mean that if someone reading the thread at the time could derive that Cado was undoubtedly a cop. Even Vector expressed her doubts (which seems to be the basis of your case on her). While Dem might have thought he was a mafia roel-cop, I don't think he was certain. That, and Griffy was in his face.

Also, you say that if Dem were scum, he would know that Cado was the cop. Since when did the mafia already know the town power roles on day 1?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Now, something to keep in mind: the two mafia players knew that Cado was a cop.  I believe that the mafia would be highly reluctant to both vote for him for fear of looking bad later, but also that they wouldn't want to obstruct the lynch too hard due to the fact that otherwise they'd have to waste their nightkill on him.

With that in mind, I think Demdemeh is strongly scummy too, and I would support a lynch on him(?) too.  He loudly talked about how bad the claim was and kept saying that he was probably a mafia role cop, but then didn't vote him.  Considering that the mafia role cop is the most desirable lynch in the game that makes no sense at all.

Please explain how this makes sense. Scumteam Vector and Dem knew Cado was the cop. On day 1. Before the mafia role-cop could inspect. So apparently the mafia already know who has what role. Then what would be the point of a mafia role-cop?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.

(again, my bolding)

I don't see his replacement as scum fleeing pressure.  I was referring to other players in general, who often basically hit a reset button in their heads when a player is replaced (which would be bad because we're running out of time and you are scum).  I feared the same could happen in this game.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?

Because I had two scumpicks, and there are two scum in this game.  It was also a weak gut feeling.

Unless it's clear that your top two suspects are not going to be lynched today, there's really not much point in pursuing a third (and in that case you're probably chasing a compromise lynch on someone you don't really think is scum but who you think is better than the alternative).

I guess the person who I regard as least town other than you and Vector is Lenglon but he's still pretty town.

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

What happens if one or both of your top scumpicks aren't town, and you haven't pressured anyone else? This situation might sound familiar to you.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when if I flip town? Who is your next suspect?

Lenglon.  But again, I don't think that will happen.

So you won't pressure her today. At all. Ok, I'll ask this as a new player seeking advice from an IC. IF I get lynched today, and flip town, how do you expect the town to react to your actions? Even if you weren't an all powerful IC who obviously knows who the scum are. What would you do then?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Because I want to see scum lynched.  If the town doesn't vote for the scum, the scum can come in later and use their votes to cause a no lynch or lynch a townie.  Kindof like what you just did by voting me with no reasoning at all.  I don't even think there's really anything to respond to here - you're saying that because I want to win, and that may mean I want to win as a mafia member, I'm a mafia member?  Or because I'm advising people to vote for the people who I think are mafia I'm mafia?

I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't believe in a pressure vote. That was inconsiderate of me. I wanted to see what would happen when one of your inactive scumpicks suddenly came back in earnest. Poke a hole and see what falls out, eh? You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players. I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

 I think that your attitude towards the current situation is stupid. Not scummy. Stupid. You aren't even considering the possibility of anyone else being scum. I am very interested in seeing how you answer my above question. Also, you didn't really answer this one:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Also, you've tied up the vote (to save your partner) with barely any time remaining.  I'd suggest voting for an extension if you want to pretend that you have the town's interests at heart.

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 12:50:23 am

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

Can't you at least provide a one-liner summary, or an extension vote when the day is set to end before you come back to explain your vote?

She doesn't need to extend; I already provided the last one needed. Which you missed. It's ok. But why are you defending TWS? Isn't it according to your philosophies that you should make players defend their own cases, and not comment on others' cases?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:05:41 am

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?

If you think TWS is buddying me then that contradicts your vote - there's no reason at all for a mafia member to buddy their partner.  They already know their partner is on their side.

Here:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

To me, this reads as TWS saying "Yes sir, you're the best sir." Why are you answering questions for TWS? Unless, of course,

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2013, 12:00:02 am

• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

They already know their partner is on their side.

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

---

Honestly, I can't determine your alignment because of WIFOM. Your current attitude is that you are going to get the town to lynch your two scumpicks. And then the game will end, because you are right. You are dead sure of who the scum are. This kind of thinking screams town to me. Scum couldn't afford to have only two dead certain cases, otherwise the town would turn on them when the lynch flips. No scum would ever do that, etc, WIFOM. You are scum. You are not scum. I can't read you, and trying to do so is a fruitless effort. We have the extension, and I want to see what Vector and Griffionday have to say before I put down a lynch vote. I have no read on her either, so I'll have to wait for her response to your case.

---

TheWetSheep: What is your view on Leafsnail defending you?

---

Griffinpup: What are your opinions on Dem's actions? On Leafsnail?

---

Giffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on June 10, 2013, 12:33:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 09, 2013, 12:35:01 pm

I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though.  (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)

Didn't happen, and won't happen today either, I WILL post something Wednesday I promise.

I would very much like to see your views. What about Leafsnail's behavior seems more like scum, and less like belligerent town?

PPE: Vector

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

But the specific example you mentioned could not possibly have had any effect at all.  So why did you mention it?

Yes, Griffionday said a few things to Dem.  No, one person taking a slightly tough tone with Dem does not explain or excuse his behaviour.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

I do not think either of these explanations hold any kind of water.  There's no benefit in "earmarking" someone with a vote.  And OMGUS isn't a valid reason for voting someone.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Its a fair point, but I don't think it was clear if Cado was a cop or not. I'm not talking about if Dem thought he was a town cop. I mean that if someone reading the thread at the time could derive that Cado was undoubtedly a cop. Even Vector expressed her doubts (which seems to be the basis of your case on her). While Dem might have thought he was a mafia roel-cop, I don't think he was certain. That, and Griffy was in his face.

The basis of my case on Vector is that she seemed to think Cado was the cop, but that he should be lynched anyway.  If Dem was unsure whether Cado was a mafia rolecop he certainly didn't seem that way, considering he stated in no uncertain terms that was what he thought several times.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Also, you say that if Dem were scum, he would know that Cado was the cop. Since when did the mafia already know the town power roles on day 1?

He'd know who the mafia members were, and that Cado wasn't one of them.  Townies with any degree of experience do not lie about having a power role, so therefore Cado would have to be the actual cop.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Please explain how this makes sense. Scumteam Vector and Dem knew Cado was the cop. On day 1. Before the mafia role-cop could inspect. So apparently the mafia already know who has what role. Then what would be the point of a mafia role-cop?

They knew because Cado told them in the thread.  The point of the mafia role-cop is to find roles who do not reveal their identities in the thread

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

Yes, although now that you mention it that's also true.  Why are you trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

What happens if one or both of your top scumpicks aren't town, and you haven't pressured anyone else? This situation might sound familiar to you.

Then I lynch them and win.

Assuming you mean "are", then I have plenty of information to go on from how they've reacted to the case and jumped on/ evaded the wagons on my old suspects.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

So you won't pressure her today. At all. Ok, I'll ask this as a new player seeking advice from an IC. IF I get lynched today, and flip town, how do you expect the town to react to your actions? Even if you weren't an all powerful IC who obviously knows who the scum are. What would you do then?

If you get lynched today then most of the rest of the players would agree with me that you appeared to be mafia, as I cannot unilaterally lynch someone.  If you were to flip town I'd hope the majority of players would be able to see that I arrived at my conclusions honestly due to the fact that I've clearly laid out my reasoning, and be able to identify by votecount analysis and wagon analysis who Vector's remaining partner is.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't believe in a pressure vote. That was inconsiderate of me. I wanted to see what would happen when one of your inactive scumpicks suddenly came back in earnest. Poke a hole and see what falls out, eh?

Making a pressure vote doesn't mean that the player being voted isn't allowed to criticize your weak reasoning.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players.

Did you seriously believe this was a possibility?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

I don't think proclaiming your towniness from the rooftops is productive.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I think that your attitude towards the current situation is stupid. Not scummy. Stupid. You aren't even considering the possibility of anyone else being scum.

But you're still voting me?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Also, you didn't really answer this one:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

I don't understand what reasoning needs to be given beyond "I want scum to be lynched".  In any case asking people to examine my scumpicks doesn't necessarily mean advising them to tunnel.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

I missed it, but I don't get why you're being so weirdly passive-aggressive.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

She doesn't need to extend; I already provided the last one needed. Which you missed. It's ok. But why are you defending TWS? Isn't it according to your philosophies that you should make players defend their own cases, and not comment on others' cases?

No.  In fact, I specifically asked everyone to comment on my case, so it's more like it's exactly the opposite of my philosophy.  In any case, asking someone to provide reasoning can hardly be called a defense.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Here:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

To me, this reads as TWS saying "Yes sir, you're the best sir."

Sure.  But as I said, if he's buddying me then that would make him scum and me town, since there's no point in trying to ingratiate yourself with someone you already know is on your team.  So it would contradict your vote.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Why are you answering questions for TWS?

I didn't answer the question - I was pointing out that it contradicted your overall point.  I don't understand what your votecount is supposed to illustrate.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

I'm going to keep giving you rope.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Honestly, I can't determine your alignment because of WIFOM. Your current attitude is that you are going to get the town to lynch your two scumpicks. And then the game will end, because you are right. You are dead sure of who the scum are. This kind of thinking screams town to me. Scum couldn't afford to have only two dead certain cases, otherwise the town would turn on them when the lynch flips. No scum would ever do that, etc, WIFOM. You are scum. You are not scum. I can't read you, and trying to do so is a fruitless effort. We have the extension, and I want to see what Vector and Griffionday have to say before I put down a lynch vote. I have no read on her either, so I'll have to wait for her response to your case.

If you have no read on both me and Vector, why are you giving me so much attention and Vector none?  Why rely entirely on a case made by someone you don't think is town?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 11, 2013, 04:28:17 pm

still waiting on vector before I'm going to really step in, but in the meantime...

Leafsnail: yesterday Vector advised me against chaining lynches and jumping to an interaction-based analysis, and yet today you seem to be basing part of your case on vector/nightcrafter on their interactions with each other. why is an interaction-based analysis acceptable now, but unacceptable yesterday?

for reference:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Why didn't she bring up Dem's strange willingness to shorten the day?  She mentioned that Dem was scummy earlier for "playing to the crowd", but when Dem brought up the shorten request she simply went along with it.
My answer is that she didn't want to bring up something so damning for her partner.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 forever! Replacement needed.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

I'm done school! I'll have far more time to devote to this game now.

---

NightCrafter:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:03:23 am

PFP

TWS:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

Spoiler: TheWetSheep (click to show/hide)

TheWetSheep (formerly Shinigami_King): 1. I am sympathetic to having your prime suspect missing, but could you not at least ask other people what they think about that suspect, or chase up your secondary suspect (Griffionday)/null read (me)?

2. Have you got a read on Dem yet?

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here? Do you have a case on either Vector or me besides what Leafsbail has already stated? Do you think Leafsnail softballed you with his next question to you ("Wen will you have time?", IIRC)? I have posted my ideas on the reasons for Dem's behavior. Do you agree with them? If not, that parts don't seem accurate?

If by "buddying" you mean "agreeing" then yes, that's what I'm doing. If he asks me for my reads then I'm going to them along with their reasoning. And that's what you see me doing. I'm not going to change my reads because somebody has the same ones.

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Quote from: griffinpup on June 10, 2013, 09:04:32 am

Vector, when will you be able to post some content?

Actually, I do have a case on Vector(it hasn't been answered yet though):

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

OK, first of all Vector:

Here is an excerpt of pre-game talk about the new setup:

Spoiler: Posts 27-37 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 06:27:22 pm

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 06:41:12 pm

Huh, sounds good.

Quote from: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 06:45:02 pm

I am for that.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 07:35:53 pm

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

---

Quote

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 07:44:25 pm

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 07:53:36 pm

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 16, 2013, 07:55:05 pm

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:06:55 pm

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 08:18:17 pm

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:31:30 pm

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

The important parts are Vector's posts, but I decided to blanket quote.

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

You put that much thought into the setup, but didn't know there was a sane cop? I doubt it.

Oh, and in the next post, another bit on Vector and a case on Demdemeh:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Demdemeh:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:51:46 pm

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

That's a pretty big inconsistency, isn't it? Why did you say he basically claimed mafia, then say "he may very well be mafia"? Also, the first bold part seems like a scum capitalizing on a town's unlucky slip. This meshes with my scum read on Vector pretty well, actually, since Vector was the first person to point this out, and that's the kind of thing a scumpartner would say to give extra weight to the case.

I didn't really realize the significance at the time, but if Vector's scum the last point there is pretty telling, in my opinion.

I still want an an answer on this:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector?

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

Buddying? No. Agreeing? Yes. I don't think they're the same thing. See my response to NightCrafter.

Bandwagoning? I provided reasoning that was independent of Leafsnail's. Reasoning you haven't answered yet. (I'm not trying to rush you, sorry if it feels that way)

I looked through my posts and couldn't find the one you describe.

This post feels like you're just pulling scumtells out of a hat and throwing them at me. I await your "actual posts".

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 12:46:57 am

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279360#msg4279360) immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

Leafsnail

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

If you were to flip town I'd hope the majority of players would be able to see that I arrived at my conclusions honestly due to the fact that I've clearly laid out my reasoning, and be able to identify by votecount analysis and wagon analysis who Vector's remaining partner is.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Assuming you mean "are", then I have plenty of information to go on from how they've reacted to the case and jumped on/ evaded the wagons on my old suspects.

Cue epiphany. Ok. I get it now. I see how you are scum hunting. Before, I thought you simply would not do anything after the lynches, and got frustrated. It appeared to me that your hunting would never extend any farther from Vector or me. True, I don't feel that it is the 'best' method, but now I see that it is valid. This is where most of my misunderstandings came from. Unvote

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

Yes, although now that you mention it that's also true.  Why are you trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS?

This, for instance. I saw you as already having your two scumpicks, and just sitting on them, refusing to question anyone. I wanted to get you doing something to scumhunt, because it looked like you were being inactive.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

I missed it, but I don't get why you're being so weirdly passive-aggressive.

Frustration.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

He'd know who the mafia members were, and that Cado wasn't one of them.  Townies with any degree of experience do not lie about having a power role, so therefore Cado would have to be the actual cop.

-snip-

They knew because Cado told them in the thread.  The point of the mafia role-cop is to find roles who do not reveal their identities in the thread

I had assumed the mafia wouldn't trust Cado's claim. You did. Ergo confusion.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

But the specific example you mentioned could not possibly have had any effect at all.  So why did you mention it?

Yes, Griffionday said a few things to Dem.  No, one person taking a slightly tough tone with Dem does not explain or excuse his behaviour.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

I do not think either of these explanations hold any kind of water.  There's no benefit in "earmarking" someone with a vote.  And OMGUS isn't a valid reason for voting someone.

These are the best explanations I have for Dem's behavior. I don't really know how else to put it.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

I don't think proclaiming your towniness from the rooftops is productive.

What would you consider being productive?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players.

Did you seriously believe this was a possibility?

Unfortunately, yes.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Sure.  But as I said, if he's buddying me then that would make him scum and me town, since there's no point in trying to ingratiate yourself with someone you already know is on your team.  So it would contradict your vote.

Ok, I didn't see what you meant about contradicting my vote.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

If you have no read on both me and Vector, why are you giving me so much attention and Vector none?  Why rely entirely on a case made by someone you don't think is town?

You are here and Vector isn't. Any questions I would ask Vector have already been asked, so I will wait until she gets back.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 04:13:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

I'm going to keep giving you rope.

Fair enough.

---

TWS

The way I read the part of your case you linked, its based on her claiming to not know there was a cop, yes? The way I am interpreting this quote from Leafsnail, he is saying the same thing when he says "Vector should know better."

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Honestly, I didn't want to tunnel Leafsnail, and I couldn't think of any questions. Yes, it is a terrible reason.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector?

I'm having difficulty reading Vector. I see what points you and Leafsnail have in your cases on her, but I also see the logic of the WIFOM created by letting Cado live. I hope to get a better stance on her once she responds to the case made against her.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 06:22:51 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 11, 2013, 04:28:17 pm

still waiting on vector before I'm going to really step in, but in the meantime...

Leafsnail: yesterday Vector advised me against chaining lynches and jumping to an interaction-based analysis, and yet today you seem to be basing part of your case on vector/nightcrafter on their interactions with each other. why is an interaction-based analysis acceptable now, but unacceptable yesterday?

Because I don't have exactly the same playstyle as Vector, and therefore there's no reason to suspect that we'll share the exact same views on everything?  Also Vector is a mafia member and may have been trying to discourage anyone from looking at the associative tells she was building with Dem.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

The italicized part is my explanation, and I think it is far more plausible than any other explanation offered for Dem's behaviour.

Dem said he thought Cado was the scum cop, and after he was told there was no godfather he should have switched:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

That last statement about town taking out the power roles just kind of clinches it for me, I think. RangerCado is the scum cop, and GDay is his godfather friend.

Further, if he doubted that Cado was scum he shouldn't have hit shorten, which as others have said is like voting for Cado only less reliable from a town perspective (also he probably wouldn't have FoS'd Cado twice while talking about how scummy he was).

I'll respond to nightcrafter in a new post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 06:30:11 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

Cue epiphany. Ok. I get it now. I see how you are scum hunting. Before, I thought you simply would not do anything after the lynches, and got frustrated. It appeared to me that your hunting would never extend any farther from Vector or me. True, I don't feel that it is the 'best' method, but now I see that it is valid. This is where most of my misunderstandings came from. Unvote

Ok.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

I had assumed the mafia wouldn't trust Cado's claim. You did. Ergo confusion.

This is a general principle, incidentally - mafia members can trust claims and the like a lot more easily because they know who the lying mafia members are.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

These are the best explanations I have for Dem's behavior. I don't really know how else to put it.

Fair enough

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

What would you consider being productive?

1. Identifying scum
2. Taking measures to get scum lynched

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

Unfortunately, yes.

Why?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

Ok, I didn't see what you meant about contradicting my vote.

Voting me would suggest that I you thought I was scum, which would contradict the question which assumed I was town.  It doesn't matter now though.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

You are here and Vector isn't. Any questions I would ask Vector have already been asked, so I will wait until she gets back.

I suppose.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2013, 02:43:26 am

The day has been extended!

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(3) - nightcrafter27, griffinpup, Lenglon

nightcrafter27 has replaced Demdemeh


Day 2 has begun and will end at June 14, 2013. [Friday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130614T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 1 (Over the limit before I had to post; Vector (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4312030#msg4312030))
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"It's too quiet."

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Sorry about taking so long, my flank is really taking a beating this quarter...

Enough excuses! On to answers!

---

Sheep:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 08, 2013, 10:44:02 pm

Hmm. If you were scum, do you think you would pay more or less attention to the game? I'm pretty sure that if I was scum I'd be be paying extra attention. I can see not expanding ones reads as a scumtell, but apathy? I can't see it.

As I see it; that depends on the type of apathy.  I agree that by itself it is more of a null tell as the reason for the apathy might be anything; particularly when one is apathetic about the game in general.  However, I feel that apathy about one's own reads (town and scum) and building them on everyone IS a scum trait.

My reason for thinking so is fairly simple: town lives or dies by their reads, as such they carry significant emotional weight.  Scum on the other hand have less reason to be so invested in their reads: after all, their survival and victory is based on OTHER people's reads.

---

nightcrafter:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm

Giffionday:
I would very much like to see your views. What about Leafsnail's behavior seems more like scum, and less like belligerent town?

Hopefully my views on Leafsnail will more evident in a bit; as for what I was thinking about his behavior at the time: He came into the game attacking rather than addressing any pressure on his position.  At the time it seemed merely odd, on review I now see it more as abusing the mental auto reset (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4300039#msg4300039) you brought up.  Considering his insistence that the case on you must not be automatically dropped (which I agree with) this seems suspicious to me.

---

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 08, 2013, 09:42:47 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

So the fact that he had been off the forum for almost three days meant nothing?

Not really, no.  They may have just not bothered to log in during the night and then had a weekend away from home.

Bullshit.  Dem was absent from the foroums from 28th through the 31st, also known as Tuesday through Friday, and nights are know to be 1 day.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 08, 2013, 09:42:47 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 08, 2013, 02:05:36 am

You hadn't read the game when you made your cases:

Not re-read, just read.  You never comment on what your read indicated, and whether it improved your confidence in your reads, you just were like: "Yep we're good here, lynch these two now."

It was a long thread, so I focused on the most interesting and relevant part of it to start with (cops claiming is gonna cause mafia members (who know it's the real cop) to react differently to townies (who don't), which helps distinguish them).  I feel the cases derived from that part were strong.

I don't think any of the rest of the thread does anything to go against a Vector/Dem scumteam - I think the way Vector completely failed to engage Dem, while doing so with basically every other player, throughout almost the entirety of day 1 is pretty telling too.

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out? 

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 08, 2013, 09:42:47 pm

Your reasoning regarding ICs is incorrect.  A moderator will always assign roles to players completely randomly unless otherwise stated in the OP - thus both ICs being scum is no less likely than any other random pair of players being scum.  I'm pretty sure there was a BM where both ICs were scum, in fact.

I invite you again to consider who your secondary suspect is, considering the interactions of players rather than trying to outguess the moderator.

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops; however, as you insist, and I'm not really applying any pressure to anyone else:

Well, it probably isn't griffinpup, as you confused him with me.
It almost certainly isn't Vector, as I doubt you would bus her while she was away if she were your partner.
Lenglon... Possible?  I could make a case for this based on her interactions with you; specifically the lack of real substance there and no desire from either of you to continue when not prodded to do so, but a couple of my reasons for suspecting her are actually apposed to a her and you team.
Sheep has been acting odd, and YOU are really happy to deny that you are a scum team on the grounds of buddying causes the buddied to automatically be town.  His recent post is intriguing and feels genuine though so...
nightcrafter is also a possibility, as you did set him up to be bused pending replacement, but at the same time gave the slot time to fill before pressing it.  This actually would explain certain town tells I picked up from Dem perfectly.

So yeah... that was a waste of my time, but there you have it: as far as I can tell the scum team is you-nightcrafter, you-Sheep, or you-Lenglon.

Sleep now, more tomorrow.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 12, 2013, 08:53:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Bullshit.  Dem was absent from the foroums from 28th through the 31st, also known as Tuesday through Friday, and nights are know to be 1 day.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out?

I don't understand what you mean by hasty.  I saw evidence that Vector was scum and presented it.  I don't think you need to trudge through an entire thread in order to have a good case, particularly if there's only one interesting section.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

I don't understand what you mean.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops

You are very wrong on this point.

If you're right then there's another lynch on scum you can support if the first lynch isn't possible, and it also strengthens your case/ reads if you can try and identify the true scumteam.  In addition, the idea that scum benefits from being "warned" that someone thinks they're scum (rather than pressured by someone questioning them as scum) is laughable.

If you follow the logic for "if I'm wrong" then you wouldn't call someone scum ever, because if you're wrong then you're reducing pressure on the actual scum.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Well, it probably isn't griffinpup, as you confused him with me.
It almost certainly isn't Vector, as I doubt you would bus her while she was away if she were your partner.
Lenglon... Possible?  I could make a case for this based on her interactions with you; specifically the lack of real substance there and no desire from either of you to continue when not prodded to do so, but a couple of my reasons for suspecting her are actually apposed to a her and you team.
Sheep has been acting odd, and YOU are really happy to deny that you are a scum team on the grounds of buddying causes the buddied to automatically be town.  His recent post is intriguing and feels genuine though so...
nightcrafter is also a possibility, as you did set him up to be bused pending replacement, but at the same time gave the slot time to fill before pressing it.  This actually would explain certain town tells I picked up from Dem perfectly.

So yeah... that was a waste of my time, but there you have it: as far as I can tell the scum team is you-nightcrafter, you-Sheep, or you-Lenglon.

I agree that was a waste of your time because that was a hilariously bad attempt at analysis.  You've left open over half of the possibilities (3/5) while admitting that none of them are really satisfying, and the reasoning for excluding a me/griffinpup team is awful.

Basically, if there are two or more mafia members alive, you should have a secondary suspect, and also you should be thinking about whether the secondary suspect makes sense relative to the primary suspect.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 12, 2013, 08:53:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out?

I don't understand what you mean by hasty.  I saw evidence that Vector was scum and presented it.  I don't think you need to trudge through an entire thread in order to have a good case, particularly if there's only one interesting section.

You replaced in for someone who people thought was suspicious (I don't have time to trawl for the pressure right at this minute, but will eventually), and yet your first posts never even mentioned this, and rather jumped straight to your attacks.  You wasted no time trying to figure out if the context of Vector's actions made reasonable sense for a townie to take (or if you did you never commented on them) and your pressure on Dem barely touched the surface of what seemed suspicious about him to me, so yeah; hasty and weak.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 12, 2013, 08:53:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

I don't understand what you mean.

Sorry for being unclear: Your case was hasty so you could get it out and lynch Vector before she could return.  The rest is speculation on your actions post my voting you.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 12, 2013, 08:53:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops

You are very wrong on this point.

If you're right then there's another lynch on scum you can support if the first lynch isn't possible, and it also strengthens your case/ reads if you can try and identify the true scumteam.  In addition, the idea that scum benefits from being "warned" that someone thinks they're scum (rather than pressured by someone questioning them as scum) is laughable.

If you follow the logic for "if I'm wrong" then you wouldn't call someone scum ever, because if you're wrong then you're reducing pressure on the actual scum.

Hmmm... I think I see what you mean.  By not following your example of having exactly two cases that I'm willing to lynch on basis of my reads at this moment I'm unable to jump from tunnel to tunnel as it suits my needs.  Also you are completely correct that I should call people scum at the drop of a hat as that is the most intelligent and well thought out strategy in the game.  Are you mental, or just covering for your shoddy play?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 12, 2013, 08:53:09 pm

I agree that was a waste of your time because that was a hilariously bad attempt at analysis.  You've left open over half of the possibilities (3/5) while admitting that none of them are really satisfying, and the reasoning for excluding a me/griffinpup team is awful.

Basically, if there are two or more mafia members alive, you should have a secondary suspect, and also you should be thinking about whether the secondary suspect makes sense relative to the primary suspect.

Look scumbag; I thought I made this clear: Unlike you I DON'T KNOW who the scum are.  As such everyone is suspicious to me, but at the same time everyone is possibly town as well.  I DO NOT consider cases that are based on the interplay of my target and them to be in anyway conductive to actually finding the scum.  It reeks of telling oneself a tale to validate your guesswork; which WILL bias you no matter how hard you try.  Those interactions aren't going anywhere, they'll still be there when we lynch you, as such I will wait until THEN to bring them up.  Anything else is baseless speculation; as such, I'm sorry I posted those reads and sunk to your level of play.

Could into detail on why buddying is considered a scum tell?  I'm going somewhere with this, so please humor me.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 03:23:01 am

ok, this is getting unacceptable. Vector, you haven't followed up on this

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

at all for 36 hours.

please, expand on your case on sheep or respond to at least some of the accusations against you. there's only 28 hours left before the end of this super-extended day and you have a lot of talking to do yet.

really, all that has been going on as far as I can see is Griff and Leaf dukeing it out, since there's nothing better for them to do. could you please respond to Leafsnail's accusations? they've kinda taken center-stage all day.

Day: The horse has been dead for about two pages now. beating it more will not bring it back to life.

Nightcrafter: what do you think of the accusations Vector leveled against sheep?

Sheep: working on the principal that Vector flips scum, do you think that Leafsnail's accusation of Nightcrafter being her scumbuddy holds water? do you consider the way Nightcrafter voted Leafsnail a form of chainsaw defense? what of the way that Day has been tunneling Leaf all day long?

Leaf: in an effort to be charitable to Vector, and assume that your accusations of her got lost in the last several pages, could you please repost your accusations and questions of her?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 08:42:45 am

PFP

Yesterday was busier than I expected it to be. I should be able to make a post later today.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

You replaced in for someone who people thought was suspicious (I don't have time to trawl for the pressure right at this minute, but will eventually), and yet your first posts never even mentioned this, and rather jumped straight to your attacks.  You wasted no time trying to figure out if the context of Vector's actions made reasonable sense for a townie to take (or if you did you never commented on them) and your pressure on Dem barely touched the surface of what seemed suspicious about him to me, so yeah; hasty and weak.

I answered questions directed to me when I replaced in.  If no-one else was interested enough to ask then there's no point in dwelling on your predecessor's actions.

I explained why Vector's actions only make sense for scum (unless lynching a cop is a townie thing to do), and I think my case on Dem was strong.  If you think there are even more damning points against Dem out there then great!  How about we lynch his slot then?

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

Sorry for being unclear: Your case was hasty so you could get it out and lynch Vector before she could return.  The rest is speculation on your actions post my voting you.

There was a whole week before Vector's return.  If your accusation is true then there'd be no reason to rush at all (hint I wasn't rushing I was trying to post content as soon as possible to prevent the game from freezing up)

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

Hmmm... I think I see what you mean.  By not following your example of having exactly two cases that I'm willing to lynch on basis of my reads at this moment I'm unable to jump from tunnel to tunnel as it suits my needs.  Also you are completely correct that I should call people scum at the drop of a hat as that is the most intelligent and well thought out strategy in the game.  Are you mental, or just covering for your shoddy play?

This paragraph is nonsense.  You're accusing me of tunneling, yet you are the one doing so - focusing on exactly one player, declaring them scum, and not even bothering to try and identify the partner that they would need to have.  You're acting like you have to call people scum at the "drop of a hat" in order to have a secondary suspect, which is patently false.  As for what I'm doing, I am trying to give you advice so that you can improve as a player.  Because at the moment your play is appalling.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

Look scumbag; I thought I made this clear: Unlike you I DON'T KNOW who the scum are.  As such everyone is suspicious to me, but at the same time everyone is possibly town as well.  I DO NOT consider cases that are based on the interplay of my target and them to be in anyway conductive to actually finding the scum.  It reeks of telling oneself a tale to validate your guesswork; which WILL bias you no matter how hard you try.  Those interactions aren't going anywhere, they'll still be there when we lynch you, as such I will wait until THEN to bring them up.  Anything else is baseless speculation; as such, I'm sorry I posted those reads and sunk to your level of play.

That advice was purely for your benefit and I'm not going to argue it with you.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

Could into detail on why buddying is considered a scum tell?  I'm going somewhere with this, so please humor me.

Yes.

Buddying is an attempt to ingratiate yourself with another player.  There are generally two reasons for doing this:
1. So that the player you were buddying feels that you are less of a threat on some level, and is therefore less inclined to vote you
2. So that the player you were buddying is implicated if you die and flip mafia

2. obviously only applies to mafia members.  1. could perhaps be performed by a townie, but being town means there's a much lower emphasis on survival and a much greater emphasis on searching for scum.  Buddying impedes your ability to pressure people and find scum, and in addition buddying up to a mafia member has no benefit - therefore it's not something townies will generally want to do.  So it's something scum wants to do but not something town wants to do, making it generally a scumtell.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 13, 2013, 12:24:10 pm

It's not necessary to restate any cases.  I'm reading from the beginning of the day ATM.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 13, 2013, 12:52:13 pm

Also, thank you.  I much prefer being voted to being whined at.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 01:10:38 pm

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 12:52:13 pm

Also, thank you.  I much prefer being voted to being whined at.

meh, either you'll post something, or the day will end without me moving my vote. it's... really not very complicated.

Lenglon goes back to waiting

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Responses to Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

I explained why Vector's actions only make sense for scum (unless lynching a cop is a townie thing to do)

Leafsnail, this phrase reads odd to me.  I'm under the impression that lynching some particular role is only scummy if you know someone has that role--which I didn't.  That would be why I lynched him.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

As a quick side note, I found Lenglon's reaction to RangerCado's claim fairly convincing, while Shinigami's seems a little more forced.

Hmm, I hadn't noticed.  More evidence against TWS.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Lastly, I find Vector's silence on this whole matter baffling.  I think she may have been hoping that with Ford quiet, nobody would notice what Dem was doing.

I didn't notice what he was doing!  I'd like to note that most of the arguments through this game against me have been "I expect Vector to play such-and-such way but she did something else," or "I thought Vector was more observant than that."  This is bullshit.  The position of IC has been loaded up with far too much baggage and mythos about how "good" players play and what they do.

No, I am not perfect.  But folks can scumhunt me and reaction test just the same as they would everyone else.

The problem with this is that it pits the ICs against each other, where what is important is not scumtells but the ability to give off the illusion of being perfect.

Well, anyway.  This isn't a complaint at you in particular.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Vector: Why did she keep voting someone even after her (sole) original reason for voting him was shown to be wrong?
My answer is that she realized he was the actual cop, and still had to die.

Because what I thought he did was claim a role that didn't exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Instead, he appeared to claim a role that does exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Basically, the difference between making a stupid mistake and being scummy, vs. just being scummy.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Why didn't she bring up Dem's strange willingness to shorten the day?  She mentioned that Dem was scummy earlier for "playing to the crowd", but when Dem brought up the shorten request she simply went along with it.
My answer is that she didn't want to bring up something so damning for her partner.

Because I didn't notice what he was doing.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 08:16:01 pm

Looking back on it, I also don't like the "Cado's probably town and the actual cop but we have to lynch him anyway because ~reasons~" thing she's got going on either.  Examples:
In #409 she says that her gut says Cado is town but he should be lynched anyway because
In #443 onwards she says that the most likely scumteam is Ford/Dem, but doesn't bother to question them and instead keeps trying to get someone she thinks is town (and therefore possibly the only town power role) lynched

I didn't question Ford because he was already up for replacement, IIRC, or at the very least had been absent for a very, very long time.  Demdemeh had just replaced in and more of his stuff seemed off than the other players, but I didn't get a really strong scummy feeling off of him.

This game is a balance between the mind and the heart.  I know that sounds like total bullshit, but let me explain.  There's what you think by instinct and feeling, and what you think based on logic.  Gut said Cado was telling the truth.  Logic said Cado was lying.  There was absolutely no evidence I could find for my gut feeling, and plenty of reason to think he was lying, or quite probably could be lying.  And I knew that if he was alive, then this question would probably dominate the rest of the game.  Was he lying?  In another game (Magic Mafia), I had been certain he was telling the truth, instinctively so.  This meant that my gut was not trustworthy in this case.

Beyond that, process of elimination gave me a very small pool of targets.  Cado had been scummiest in his tenure, by far, and every question I asked him made me more logically certain that he was scum.

Maybe you aren't a conflicted sort of person, Leafsnail, but I'm trying to play transparently and go through my entire thought process for those of us who are.  Part of that involves this sort of conflict.  I lynched someone who I thought was scum, but not someone who I felt was scum.  I like these two things to be in accord, because usually when they are, then it's the right lynch.  This time, I was wrong.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

a) Several times you state that Ranger is not amongst your prime suspects, and probably is the real cop.  However, you seem to imply there's some kind of hidden reason why you should lynch someone even if you believe them to be the strongest town role in the game.  What is this reason?  Does it really outweigh the fact that you're killing the town's most reliable means of finding scum?

Ugh.  Please see above--I wasn't very clear with my language D1.

You didn't play in Magic Mafia, right?  As town, Ranger lied multiple times--really big whoppers, like "I'm a rolecop, and here are my results on you"!--without anyone having any idea about it.  I had absolutely no idea.  He also had a habit of lying when under fire, again, with no one the wiser.  This caused me to give no consideration to my gut instincts, because even if they're usually right, I had evidence that when it comes to Cado, they weren't worth paying any attention to.  This is something I mentioned multiple times throughout the end of that day.

"Then why mention them at all?"

Well, because I'm ICing and it would have helped my game a lot when I first started to get a clearer discussion of thinking and feeling, that's why.  And also because it wasn't true that I "believed" him to be scum, or that I didn't believe that.  The situation was more complicated than could be adjudicated using that one word.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

b) Four other players (birdy51, griffinpup, Griffionday and Lenglon) all arrived at the conclusion that lynching a cop claim day one is not a tactically sound move.  However, not only did you fail to arrive at this conclusion yourself (which I believe you to be more than capable of doing), you also failed to properly engage with any of the arguments these four players made with regards to not lynching a cop day one.  You did jump in with a quick "gotcha" on Griffionday accidentally saying town instead of scum, and attacked the flaws in Lenglon's less developed argument, but you didn't actually attempt to respond to the wider argument about lynching a cop claim day one being a bad move.  Why?

Why yes, it is not a net positive to lynch an important town power role D1!  God, I'm glad I've been playing this game for four years so that I got a chance to say that.

However, you're acting like he was a CT, and we were all standing around going "huh, should we lynch this cop or not?"  Maybe it was obvious to you that he wasn't lying.  It wasn't obvious to me.  Hell, I was pretty convinced he was lying, because why the hell would he panic and claim with only three not-so-serious votes on him if he wasn't scum?  Stupid town?  Then why did he keep saying more stupid, scummy shit the more I pressed him?

The only thing out of line with my read on him was my gut feeling, and I did my best to rule that out because there were very compelling reasons to assume it incorrect.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 06, 2013, 10:05:02 am

2. In post #456 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4277162#msg4277162), you call Dem scummy.  However, why did you only bring up this comparatively minor point when Dem was at that point not voting for someone they had repeatedly stated they thought was the mafia rolecop?  Furthermore, didn't you think it odd that they agreed to shorten at the time they did?

Completely escaped my notice.  Dem felt bad, but there was nothing I could really put my finger on.

The shortening seemed strange to me because they're uncommon, but I figured that hey, the day was wearing on and no one was getting anywhere, it was a good call.  What I didn't notice was where his vote was.



Let me know if there's anything I missed.  I'll get to TheWetSheep soon... my mother has apparently decided we're doing something.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 04:28:27 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 03:23:01 am

Nightcrafter: what do you think of the accusations Vector leveled against sheep?

I agree that TWS seemed to be buddying Leafsnail. As for bandwagoning, I'm not sure. Yes, his reasons look like Leafsnails, but do two votes count as a bandwagon? If so, this is the most minimalistic bandwagon I've ever seen. As for Vector's gut, I have no way of knowing.

Looking back on TWS's posts since he voted Vector, he really doesn't put forth any more reasons that aren't Leafsnails. His case here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4286879#msg4286879) is that Vector was lying when she claimed to have not known there was a cop. But then in the quote below, he attributes more ideas to Leafsnail, which seem very similar to his arguments.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1.

So TWS, how is your case on Vector different from Leafsnail's?

---

Griffionday: You say the case on me should not be dropped and that you have evidence that Dem is scum. Where is it?

---

Vector: Now that you are aware of Dem's actions at the end of D1, what is your view on them?

Also,

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Demdemeh had just replaced in and more of his stuff seemed off than the other players, but I didn't get a really strong scummy feeling off of him.

Dem had been in this game from the beginning. He lurked most of the beginning of D1 and suddenly became active late in the day.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 10:21:53 pm

Day will end when I'm asleep. TheWetSheep is my current top pick for scum for buddying Leafsnail and copying his case on Vector. I would have liked TWS to reply to my question, but that's not going to happen in the next ten seconds.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:50:32 pm

NightCrafter:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

TWS

The way I read the part of your case you linked, its based on her claiming to not know there was a cop, yes? The way I am interpreting this quote from Leafsnail, he is saying the same thing when he says "Vector should know better."

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Yes, our cases are the same, because that's what makes Vector scummy. You're not actually saying anything about the case in question. You just say I'm parroting Leafsnail's case, but I brought my own evidence to the table. You seem to be operating under the delusion that for two people to be voting the same person, those two have to have completely different reasons for that person's scumminess.

Quote

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector?

I'm having difficulty reading Vector. I see what points you and Leafsnail have in your cases on her, but I also see the logic of the WIFOM created by letting Cado live. I hope to get a better stance on her once she responds to the case made against her.

The whole notion of "there's too much WIFOM in letting Cado live" is crap. Her argument was that the possible jailkeeper would be confused by it, but the scumteam would be too. It causes the exact same confusion for both teams.

---

That's all I have time for now, I'll throw in a vote for extend. One more vote needed, I'll leave it up to you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:52:27 pm

Oh, and Nightcrafter and Vector: How are your cases on me different from each other's? You both state buddying and bandwagoning.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 13, 2013, 11:54:33 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:50:32 pm

The whole notion of "there's too much WIFOM in letting Cado live" is crap. Her argument was that the possible jailkeeper would be confused by it, but the scumteam would be too. It causes the exact same confusion for both teams.

That's... not what I'm talking about... nor has it ever been.

I'm talking about the whole "did he claim correctly" (therefore we should keep him alive) or "did he fakeclaim" (so that we would think we should keep him alive), and how that would play out through the rest of the game.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:52:27 pm

Oh, and Nightcrafter and Vector: How are your cases on me different from each other's? You both state buddying and bandwagoning.

Excuse me?  What kind of shit question is this?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 12:36:59 am

Hunuh, well, Lynch vote time.

Vector, individually, still reads as ^%^&#$%^ whenever I read her posts, but Nightcrafter does seem to be following Vector's lead quite tightly, and Vector's actions yesterday were kinda scummy in retrospect.
Nightcrafter attacked Leafsnail on rather weak grounds, then proceeded to follow Vector in voting for Sheep.
Vector has not expanded on her case on Sheep, her accusations of sheep seem rather weak to me, and I'm pretty certain Sheep is town, mostly because of Shinigami's actions earlier.
Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense
Vector's rapid-vote for Ranger really was quite suspicious
if the people to choose between for a lynch are Sheep and Vector, I know where my vote is going.
I think a two-week-long day is more than long enough, Vector, you've had a week to talk, you've said barely anything, and I dont think your case on Sheep holds well. my vote is staying on Vector tonight.

Pup: Speak up, vote someone, extend if you have too (we're only one vote away), but please participate. day's about to end and you aren't doing anything.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 14, 2013, 01:53:05 am

I'll Extend for the weekend. 

Leafsnail's right: I need to re-calibrate now that I'm not stressing about finals and can actually hunt rather than just attempt to keep pressure on him and see what develops.

Unfortunately that will have to wait until tomorrow so I can re-read.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

Spoiler: Posts 27-37 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Quote from: Captain Ford on May 16, 2013, 06:27:22 pm

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 06:41:12 pm

Huh, sounds good.

Quote from: Toaster on May 16, 2013, 06:45:02 pm

I am for that.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 16, 2013, 07:35:53 pm

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

---

Quote

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 07:44:25 pm

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 07:53:36 pm

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 16, 2013, 07:55:05 pm

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:06:55 pm

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 08:18:17 pm

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Quote from: Vector on May 16, 2013, 08:31:30 pm

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

The important parts are Vector's posts, but I decided to blanket quote.

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

You put that much thought into the setup, but didn't know there was a sane cop? I doubt it.

WetSheep's initial vote on me is as follows: Vector forgot the setup details through the course of playing, therefore she is scum.  It's lazy, stupid, and ignores all of the other argumentation I made against Cado yesterday.


Then, he has the following (bolded orange is mine):

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1. Her initial reasons for voting Ranger were erroneous, but she kept it there saying that we had to lynch him to get rid of the WIFOM. This isn't true; I'll explain why below.

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

He acts like he has a big case--the "for reasons in my previous post and more," and then completely whiffs.  Compare his attack with Leafsnail's.  Leafsnail has a cogent array of questions, bringing up specific points of confusion, things which I've legitimately said nothing about.  He has a case.  What TheWetSheep has is "I'm going to call you scum because I can't bother to read what you've already said right after the quote I cherrypicked."

Look, here's the full quotation he grabbed.  It happens to have the explanation attached--and is the first of many similar posts:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

You had only three votes on you, you moron, and most of those were there because you haven't been playing your best and because there weren't any scummier targets.  Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

If you're town, then you put in an effort to clear yourself.  And you put in an effort to find the scum.  If you're going to be lynched, you go down fighting.  Because you've done none of these, it's just about impossible to believe your claim.

Yergh.

Lazy!  Bandwagony!

Additionally: You lynch the person you think is scum.  I don't give a fuck if he claims cop, jailkeeper, or pink elephant.  If all of his actions read scum but he has a juicy claim, you lynch the fuck out of him.  You don't leave scum alive to whisper poison in your ear, you KILL them.

We may disagree on philosophy, but if you think I am wrong, that by no means makes me scum.  And I'm right, by the way.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

... OK.  TWS, what's your current opinion on Leafsnail and his case on Vector, his communication with Griffy, and my current discussion with him?  I've been trying to get you to participate, so hopefully this works.

I completely agree with his case on Vector, as can be seen by me voting her as well. Because I agree with him, I think he is more likely to be town.

Here's where the buddying starts up.  "I agree with him, therefore he is town."  "I am voting Vector, which demonstrates that I agree with his case."  This post is all about how his vote for me undergirds his relationship with Leafsnail, and not having a damn thing to do with anything relating to me.

Not "I am voting Vector, which demonstrates that I think Vector is scum," or "I am voting Vector because I agree with Leafsnail."  No.  His vote on me demonstrates that he agrees with Leafsnail's opinion of me, which in turn demonstrates that he's a fucking scumbag.

Look at what he's brought to the case: pretty much nothing.  He has two original points, one based on "Vector is scum because she forgot something," and the other a pseudo-argument.  Then he goes straight into full-on riding-Leafsnail's-argument mode.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector? How about Leafsnail?

This isn't especially telling, but I thought I should include it anyway.  Given all the rest of it, it looks to me like he's searching for more supporters for his non-extant case.  If he gets Nightcrafter to prop up Leafsnail, then that in turn props him up.


Now, let's look at where TWS finally jumps in.  When he has time for a real argument.  Here we go:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

If by "buddying" you mean "agreeing" then yes, that's what I'm doing. If he asks me for my reads then I'm going to them along with their reasoning. And that's what you see me doing. I'm not going to change my reads because somebody has the same ones.

This sounds like... well, let's break this down.

"When you say buddying, what you mean is agreeing." -> Let me recontextualize your allegations so they don't mean anything.

"If he asks me for something, then I'll do it."

"And that's what you see me doing." -> This is a hard one.  First: he says "that's what you see me doing," not "that is what I am doing."  Second, he takes the above obvious statement and tells us that that's what he's doing.  Nothing to see here!  It's another recontextualization.  He provides a false framework, and then agrees or disagrees with it without looking to the actual situation.

"I'm not going to change what I see because someone else sees the same thing." -> More recontextualization.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Quote from: griffinpup on June 10, 2013, 09:04:32 am

Vector, when will you be able to post some content?

There's a smooth deflection here.  "We asked the same question, therefore they mean the same thing independent of context."  This is a pattern for TWS: he pulls someone else's argument and claims it, and its context, for his own.  In this way he gets away with posting absolutely no worthwhile content.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Actually, I do have a case on Vector(it hasn't been answered yet though):

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

Oh, and in the next post, another bit on Vector and a case on Demdemeh:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

"Look!  Look, I have a case!  No, it's not what you're asking for, but there's two posts softballing Vector.  Hence I have a case, so there!!"

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Demdemeh:
That's a pretty big inconsistency, isn't it? Why did you say he basically claimed mafia, then say "he may very well be mafia"? Also, the first bold part seems like a scum capitalizing on a town's unlucky slip. This meshes with my scum read on Vector pretty well, actually, since Vector was the first person to point this out, and that's the kind of thing a scumpartner would say to give extra weight to the case.

I didn't really realize the significance at the time, but if Vector's scum the last point there is pretty telling, in my opinion.

Oh, sorry.  There's also this remnant of his case, from the same post.  "If Vector is scum, then she might have caught out Griffionday saying something in order to help Demdemeh!  This is significant because she was the one who noticed it!"  First I'm scum because I'm not observant enough, and then I'm scum because I'm too observant.

I mean, look at this.  "My case is as follows: she forgot something, she was wrong about something if you strip away all context and misinterpret at will, and if she's scum then this one thing she said would be telling."

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Buddying? No. Agreeing? Yes. I don't think they're the same thing. See my response to NightCrafter.

Bandwagoning? I provided reasoning that was independent of Leafsnail's. Reasoning you haven't answered yet. (I'm not trying to rush you, sorry if it feels that way)

I looked through my posts and couldn't find the one you describe.

This post feels like you're just pulling scumtells out of a hat and throwing them at me. I await your "actual posts".

Darling, throwing such superficial reasoning my way by no way means that you're not bandwagoning, and you need to get one hell of a lot better at reading through your, what, four posts.

Also--how could I be pulling things out of a hat and throwing them at you if other people noticed the same things?  Why does my random selection cohere to those of other folks?

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

Which we top off with blatantly chainsawing his scumbuddy.

First he declaws Leafsnail's argument by mischaracterizing it.  Then he decontextualizes the "faulty logic" portion by

a. ignoring previous posts from Leafsnail that imply Demdemeh quite firmly thought Cado was the mafia rolecop
b. eliding the "genuinely thought" from Leafsnail's post into "absolutely sure," then implying that there's no evidence for any interpretation (see point a.).


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the scumteam.  It's TheWetSheep and Nightcrafter.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 05:26:43 am

Nice case on Sheep there Vector, but this part at the end bothers me:

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the scumteam.  It's TheWetSheep and Nightcrafter.

you're going back on the philosophy you listed Day 1, about not chaining lynches, and why we should look for the scumteam one member at a time.
and I could simply have missed it, but I dont see your case on Nightcrafter. Could you please explain that one to me?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2!
Post by: Tiruin on June 14, 2013, 05:40:57 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, nightcrafter27
• Vector(3) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail, Lenglon
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(1) - griffinpup

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 14, 2013. [Friday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130614T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 2 (Should I add in Vector's? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4312030#msg4312030) It was before the previous extension had been acknowledged.)
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"Too quiet..."
".."
"..."
"..."
"What are we supposed to be looking for, standing around here? It's a whole tower of mirrors."
"Shh-Ears."
"Ahh."
"Shh!"

The wind whistles at the opening of the room, high up above in a deep, and perhaps an ominous, tone.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 05:53:40 am

Extend
there, that should solve the dilemma

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 06:04:13 am

Wait a moment, Vector, something seemed off, so I started checking the timestamps on the posts you quoted, and about two-thirds of your quotes are dated after your vote here:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 12:50:23 am

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

you DO have one example of bandwagoning and buddying each that predates your vote, but I'm surprised to think you were so confident that Sheep is scum off of so little data back then.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't invalidate the rest of your case on Sheep, I just want to know why you voted him at the time you did, do you have more data to share?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Tiruin on June 14, 2013, 06:19:04 am

The day has been extended!

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, nightcrafter27
• Vector(3) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail, Lenglon
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(1) - griffinpup

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 18, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130618T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"_{Say, you don't think it's the spider that we should be watching out for, and not the runed tablet, aye?}"
"_{Oh no. We weren't looking for a spider. I mean, we're all looking up to admire the mirrors.}"
"_{Your sarcasm hurts me.}"
"..."
"_{H-wait, does a spider make the usual clickety-clackity that we see in the illusions those bards give to stories or-}"
"_{Hold that thought. You did say it was photosensitive right?}"
"She did."
"Shh!"
"_{Well, that's what she said...}"
"_{...Given the topographical location of the sunwell, and the fact that we've seen something of that nature in here, it can't be coincidence that it was here for a reason. Especially since it seems to burn in the light.}"
"_{Oh so you now say it's invisible, huh.}"
"_{Just hold that mirror. If we can't directly see it, then I bet it's with the angles of light. Move that a bit to the left.}"
"_{Your left or mine?}"
"_{Y-My left!}"

No evidence of a creature is seen in the reflections around you.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 06:22:36 am

Tiruin, we're still missing the end of day 1 and start of day 2 flavor, it's making the flavor you're posting a little confusing.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Tiruin on June 14, 2013, 06:36:21 am

I know :/

I'm just tied up with current medical studies at the moment that I'm bothering myself on posting the flavor. Despite knowing what'll happen. Yeah I'm like that when these things roll around.

I'll be posting it during ~weekends.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 06:39:33 am

Kay, I hope your studies are going well at least.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 14, 2013, 09:00:14 am

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Leafsnail, this phrase reads odd to me.  I'm under the impression that lynching some particular role is only scummy if you know someone has that role--which I didn't.  That would be why I lynched him.

I am referring to the fact you stated you thought he was probably not scum, but kept voting him anyway even though that would make him a cop.  For example, in post #409 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4272982#msg4272982) you say that your gut says he's town, and in post #443 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4276017#msg4276017) you list a scumteam that doesn't include him.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

I didn't notice what he was doing!  I'd like to note that most of the arguments through this game against me have been "I expect Vector to play such-and-such way but she did something else," or "I thought Vector was more observant than that."  This is bullshit.  The position of IC has been loaded up with far too much baggage and mythos about how "good" players play and what they do.

No, I am not perfect.  But folks can scumhunt me and reaction test just the same as they would everyone else.

The problem with this is that it pits the ICs against each other, where what is important is not scumtells but the ability to give off the illusion of being perfect.

Well, anyway.  This isn't a complaint at you in particular.

I accept your point here.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Because what I thought he did was claim a role that didn't exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Instead, he appeared to claim a role that does exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Basically, the difference between making a stupid mistake and being scummy, vs. just being scummy.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Because I didn't notice what he was doing.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Completely escaped my notice.  Dem felt bad, but there was nothing I could really put my finger on.

The shortening seemed strange to me because they're uncommon, but I figured that hey, the day was wearing on and no one was getting anywhere, it was a good call.  What I didn't notice was where his vote was.

I guess I can believe that.  Now that I've pointed it out, though, would you say that makes him scum, particularly given your previous feeling that his playerslot was scum?

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

I didn't question Ford because he was already up for replacement, IIRC, or at the very least had been absent for a very, very long time.  Demdemeh had just replaced in and more of his stuff seemed off than the other players, but I didn't get a really strong scummy feeling off of him.

This game is a balance between the mind and the heart.  I know that sounds like total bullshit, but let me explain.  There's what you think by instinct and feeling, and what you think based on logic.  Gut said Cado was telling the truth.  Logic said Cado was lying.  There was absolutely no evidence I could find for my gut feeling, and plenty of reason to think he was lying, or quite probably could be lying.  And I knew that if he was alive, then this question would probably dominate the rest of the game.  Was he lying?  In another game (Magic Mafia), I had been certain he was telling the truth, instinctively so.  This meant that my gut was not trustworthy in this case.

This strikes me as a kind of gambler's fallacy?  Because he was scum and lied in a previous game, he's scum and lying this time as well?

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Beyond that, process of elimination gave me a very small pool of targets.  Cado had been scummiest in his tenure, by far, and every question I asked him made me more logically certain that he was scum.

Maybe you aren't a conflicted sort of person, Leafsnail, but I'm trying to play transparently and go through my entire thought process for those of us who are.  Part of that involves this sort of conflict.  I lynched someone who I thought was scum, but not someone who I felt was scum.  I like these two things to be in accord, because usually when they are, then it's the right lynch.  This time, I was wrong.

The thing is, I still don't understand what caused you to think Cado was scum.  I certainly don't see what would cause you to think that to the extent that it was worth risking a lynch on a town cop for.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

You didn't play in Magic Mafia, right?  As town, Ranger lied multiple times--really big whoppers, like "I'm a rolecop, and here are my results on you"!--without anyone having any idea about it.  I had absolutely no idea.  He also had a habit of lying when under fire, again, with no one the wiser.  This caused me to give no consideration to my gut instincts, because even if they're usually right, I had evidence that when it comes to Cado, they weren't worth paying any attention to.  This is something I mentioned multiple times throughout the end of that day.

"Then why mention them at all?"

Well, because I'm ICing and it would have helped my game a lot when I first started to get a clearer discussion of thinking and feeling, that's why.  And also because it wasn't true that I "believed" him to be scum, or that I didn't believe that.  The situation was more complicated than could be adjudicated using that one word.

Again, I'm still struggling to see what made Cado appear as scum "logically" to you.  Because he was a town liar in a previous game?

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Why yes, it is not a net positive to lynch an important town power role D1!  God, I'm glad I've been playing this game for four years so that I got a chance to say that.

However, you're acting like he was a CT, and we were all standing around going "huh, should we lynch this cop or not?"  Maybe it was obvious to you that he wasn't lying.  It wasn't obvious to me.  Hell, I was pretty convinced he was lying, because why the hell would he panic and claim with only three not-so-serious votes on him if he wasn't scum?  Stupid town?  Then why did he keep saying more stupid, scummy shit the more I pressed him?

The only thing out of line with my read on him was my gut feeling, and I did my best to rule that out because there were very compelling reasons to assume it incorrect.

My point was more that lynching a cop claim day one is a bad move, and that those other four players all arrived at that conclusion by similar logic.  You can wait until day two with no real risk, and that way a town cop would give you an inspection result or soak up a nightkill.  The thing I found odd is that you never truly addressed this point as made by four different players, except to point out that Griffion misspoke and to attack the weakest link in the chain of Lenglon's logic.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 14, 2013, 10:43:29 am

Spoiler: Response to Vector's Case(Very Long) (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 11:54:33 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:50:32 pm

The whole notion of "there's too much WIFOM in letting Cado live" is crap. Her argument was that the possible jailkeeper would be confused by it, but the scumteam would be too. It causes the exact same confusion for both teams.

That's... not what I'm talking about... nor has it ever been.

I'm talking about the whole "did he claim correctly" (therefore we should keep him alive) or "did he fakeclaim" (so that we would think we should keep him alive), and how that would play out through the rest of the game.

OK.

Quote

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:52:27 pm

Oh, and Nightcrafter and Vector: How are your cases on me different from each other's? You both state buddying and bandwagoning.

Excuse me?  What kind of shit question is this?

That question was mostly for Nightcrafter, but since he said he was going to bed, I thought I'd address it to you too.

When NightCrafter asks me this:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 04:28:27 pm

So TWS, how is your case on Vector different from Leafsnail's?

He's complaining about my reasons for voting you being the same as Leafsnails'. But look at your preliminary case:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

Followed by his:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 04:28:27 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 03:23:01 am

Nightcrafter: what do you think of the accusations Vector leveled against sheep?

I agree that TWS seemed to be buddying Leafsnail. As for bandwagoning, I'm not sure. Yes, his reasons look like Leafsnails, but do two votes count as a bandwagon? If so, this is the most minimalistic bandwagon I've ever seen. As for Vector's gut, I have no way of knowing.

Looking back on TWS's posts since he voted Vector, he really doesn't put forth any more reasons that aren't Leafsnails. His case here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4286879#msg4286879) is that Vector was lying when she claimed to have not known there was a cop. But then in the quote below, he attributes more ideas to Leafsnail, which seem very similar to his arguments.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 10:21:53 pm

Day will end when I'm asleep. TheWetSheep is my current top pick for scum for buddying Leafsnail and copying his case on Vector. I would have liked TWS to reply to my question, but that's not going to happen in the next ten seconds.

He does the exact same thing. His reasons are the same as yours: Bandwagoning and buddying.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Then, he has the following (bolded orange is mine):

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1. Her initial reasons for voting Ranger were erroneous, but she kept it there saying that we had to lynch him to get rid of the WIFOM. This isn't true; I'll explain why below.

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

He acts like he has a big case--the "for reasons in my previous post and more," and then completely whiffs.  Compare his attack with Leafsnail's.  Leafsnail has a cogent array of questions, bringing up specific points of confusion, things which I've legitimately said nothing about.  He has a case.  What TheWetSheep has is "I'm going to call you scum because I can't bother to read what you've already said right after the quote I cherrypicked."

The "and more" was referring to Leafsnail's case.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Look, here's the full quotation he grabbed.  It happens to have the explanation attached--and is the first of many similar posts:

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:43:11 pm

You had only three votes on you, you moron, and most of those were there because you haven't been playing your best and because there weren't any scummier targets.  Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

If you're town, then you put in an effort to clear yourself.  And you put in an effort to find the scum.  If you're going to be lynched, you go down fighting.  Because you've done none of these, it's just about impossible to believe your claim.

Yergh.

Lazy!  Bandwagony!

Additionally: You lynch the person you think is scum.  I don't give a fuck if he claims cop, jailkeeper, or pink elephant.  If all of his actions read scum but he has a juicy claim, you lynch the fuck out of him.  You don't leave scum alive to whisper poison in your ear, you KILL them.

We may disagree on philosophy, but if you think I am wrong, that by no means makes me scum.  And I'm right, by the way.

OK... but you weren't even suspicious of Ranger before he claimed. You were voting Captain Ford, and before that, Birdy51. You didn't even address Ranger for four pages before that. What made his claim so scummy? I think your answer will be "he wasn't doing any scumhunting along with it", but if that made him so scummy why didn't you vote him before that?

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 06, 2013, 10:04:45 pm

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 06, 2013, 08:04:47 pm

... OK.  TWS, what's your current opinion on Leafsnail and his case on Vector, his communication with Griffy, and my current discussion with him?  I've been trying to get you to participate, so hopefully this works.

I completely agree with his case on Vector, as can be seen by me voting her as well. Because I agree with him, I think he is more likely to be town.

Here's where the buddying starts up.  "I agree with him, therefore he is town."  "I am voting Vector, which demonstrates that I agree with his case."  This post is all about how his vote for me undergirds his relationship with Leafsnail, and not having a damn thing to do with anything relating to me.

Not "I am voting Vector, which demonstrates that I think Vector is scum," or "I am voting Vector because I agree with Leafsnail."  No.  His vote on me demonstrates that he agrees with Leafsnail's opinion of me, which in turn demonstrates that he's a fucking scumbag.

First of all, this question didn't have to do with you, it was about Leafsnail and his case on you, which were the points I addressed.

Quote

Here's where the buddying starts up.  "I agree with him, therefore he is town."

This is not what I said. I said I think he's more likely to be town because I agree with his points. The logic there isn't flawed. In fact, you don't say it's flawed. You just misrepresent it.

Here, I gave exactly what the question asked. It wanted my opinion of Leafsnail and his case. I gave them. And you call me buddying.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 10, 2013, 08:14:33 am

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector? How about Leafsnail?

This isn't especially telling, but I thought I should include it anyway.  Given all the rest of it, it looks to me like he's searching for more supporters for his non-extant case.  If he gets Nightcrafter to prop up Leafsnail, then that in turn props him up.

My purpose for this question: I was beginning to think NightCrafter was your scumpartner. I was hoping to press him into saying something incriminating by asking his opinion on you. The "how about Leafsnail" was to 'disguise' it, in a way.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Now, let's look at where TWS finally jumps in.  When he has time for a real argument.  Here we go:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

If by "buddying" you mean "agreeing" then yes, that's what I'm doing. If he asks me for my reads then I'm going to them along with their reasoning. And that's what you see me doing. I'm not going to change my reads because somebody has the same ones.

This sounds like... well, let's break this down.

"When you say buddying, what you mean is agreeing." -> Let me recontextualize your allegations so they don't mean anything.

"If he asks me for something, then I'll do it."

"And that's what you see me doing." -> This is a hard one.  First: he says "that's what you see me doing," not "that is what I am doing."  Second, he takes the above obvious statement and tells us that that's what he's doing.  Nothing to see here!  It's another recontextualization.  He provides a false framework, and then agrees or disagrees with it without looking to the actual situation.

"I'm not going to change what I see because someone else sees the same thing." -> More recontextualization.

...

This is crap. Let me break it down.

Quote

"When you say buddying, what you mean is agreeing." -> Let me recontextualize your allegations so they don't mean anything.

How? You actually don't say anything about what my point was there. Because that's what your accusations of buddying are: Sheep was agreeing with Leaf, therefore he must be buddying. Address that please, don't just say I'm recontextualizing.

Quote

"If he asks me for something, then I'll do it."

Yes. Is there something wrong with that? If anyone asks me for reads I'll give them.

Quote

"And that's what you see me doing." -> This is a hard one.  First: he says "that's what you see me doing," not "that is what I am doing."

Semantics.

Quote

Second, he takes the above obvious statement and tells us that that's what he's doing.  Nothing to see here!  It's another recontextualization.  He provides a false framework, and then agrees or disagrees with it without looking to the actual situation.

You're rambling about nothing. This bit just means that he asked me for my read and I gave it to him. I don't even understand what you're trying to get out of this sentence.

Quote

"I'm not going to change what I see because someone else sees the same thing." -> More recontextualization.

Again, you don't actually address what I'm saying, you simply say I'm recontextualizing. What am I recontextualizing?

In that whole series you say basically nothing.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Quote from: griffinpup on June 10, 2013, 09:04:32 am

Vector, when will you be able to post some content?

There's a smooth deflection here.  "We asked the same question, therefore they mean the same thing independent of context."  This is a pattern for TWS: he pulls someone else's argument and claims it, and its context, for his own.  In this way he gets away with posting absolutely no worthwhile content.

I did address it. I pointed out that it was a dumb question. Asking when somebody will have time is not softballing. Do you disagree?

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Actually, I do have a case on Vector(it hasn't been answered yet though):

Quote from: TheWetSheep on May 31, 2013, 11:43:35 pm

Oh, and in the next post, another bit on Vector and a case on Demdemeh:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 01, 2013, 02:36:08 pm

"Look!  Look, I have a case!  No, it's not what you're asking for, but there's two posts softballing Vector.  Hence I have a case, so there!!"

Softballing? I voted for you in the first one.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Vector:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

Buddying? No. Agreeing? Yes. I don't think they're the same thing. See my response to NightCrafter.

Bandwagoning? I provided reasoning that was independent of Leafsnail's. Reasoning you haven't answered yet. (I'm not trying to rush you, sorry if it feels that way)

I looked through my posts and couldn't find the one you describe.

This post feels like you're just pulling scumtells out of a hat and throwing them at me. I await your "actual posts".

Darling, throwing such superficial reasoning my way by no way means that you're not bandwagoning, and you need to get one hell of a lot better at reading through your, what, four posts.

Also--how could I be pulling things out of a hat and throwing them at you if other people noticed the same things?  Why does my random selection cohere to those of other folks?

I meant you didn't have reasoning backing them up. In retrospect it was unfair, because you didn't have time.

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 11, 2013, 05:23:32 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 11, 2013, 11:30:54 am

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

Which we top off with blatantly chainsawing his scumbuddy.

First he declaws Leafsnail's argument by mischaracterizing it.  Then he decontextualizes the "faulty logic" portion by

a. ignoring previous posts from Leafsnail that imply Demdemeh quite firmly thought Cado was the mafia rolecop
b. eliding the "genuinely thought" from Leafsnail's post into "absolutely sure," then implying that there's no evidence for any interpretation (see point a.).


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the scumteam.  It's TheWetSheep and Nightcrafter.

Hey everybody, Vector is attacking my questions to Leafsnail. She's chainsawing! She must be scum, along with Leafsnail!.

Uh, no.

Mischaracterizing? Leafsnail is saying: Yes, Dem wanted Cado lynched without voting him. But not for your reasons, but because he was scum. It's not conclusive evidence by itself.

And quite firmly sure isn't enough, for me, to be unafraid to be on someone's bandwagon.

---

Now, I didn't address you saying I had a bad case that was copied from Leafsnail yet. OK, my initial arguments on you were quite poor. Yes, my reasons for voting you were mainly Leafsnail's. But now I have more. Your above case is, for the most part, pretty terrible, for the reasons I state above. Also, why were there only two questions for me in that entire huge post?

I'll respond to more later.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 14, 2013, 11:56:20 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 05:26:43 am

Nice case on Sheep there Vector, but this part at the end bothers me:

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the scumteam.  It's TheWetSheep and Nightcrafter.

you're going back on the philosophy you listed Day 1, about not chaining lynches, and why we should look for the scumteam one member at a time.
and I could simply have missed it, but I dont see your case on Nightcrafter. Could you please explain that one to me?

Ah.  A lot of the time, people go chaining lynches in the following way:

"If person A flips scum, then that will imply persons B and C are scum, so I will now attack B and C as though A is already dead."

Whereas the correct way to look for a scumteam is as follows:

"I have cleared persons D, E, F, and G, which leaves persons A, B, and C as the people who look pretty scummy.  I have independent cases on them with a main case on A, and can see some interactions between A, B, and C that would support this claim.  I will lynch A and find out what happens."

Look for scum independently.  If you haven't confirmed scum yet, then each suspicion should have a case on them that is independent from all the others.

For Nightcrafter... it's partially process of elimination, partially the person he replaced over from's general qualities, partially that scummy shortening news Leafsnail picked up.  I haven't looked too much at his recent posts, but ... well, look, that shortening in light of the rolecop thing is really bad.

But anyway, Nightcrafter is not the one I want lynched today.  That would be TheWetSheep, because he's the one I'm sure of.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 06:04:13 am

Wait a moment, Vector, something seemed off, so I started checking the timestamps on the posts you quoted, and about two-thirds of your quotes are dated after your vote here:

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 12:50:23 am

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

you DO have one example of bandwagoning and buddying each that predates your vote, but I'm surprised to think you were so confident that Sheep is scum off of so little data back then.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't invalidate the rest of your case on Sheep, I just want to know why you voted him at the time you did, do you have more data to share?

I was pretty sure TheWetSheep was scum after his second post.

Really?  You run into a new game, shoot from the hip, just happen to land on the side of one IC against another IC (admittedly, the situation is relevant--but after the cop, I am the next-juiciest lynch), and most of your argument is "yeah, what he said, he's great" with your own quotes pulled poorly and only deriving from the attacker's previously-established points?

We've played before.  Not only will I observe that his meta play is a ghost of what it was in our other game, I will say that he should know better than to do this little if he wants to take me down.  I look forward to seeing what he does after Leafsnail and I have finished arguing.

However, I addressed all of his recent posts in order to make that clearer for everyone else.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 14, 2013, 12:01:09 pm

--Lenglon, actually that first part isn't entirely correct.  Most of the problem with chaining lynches is when someone says "Okay, we'll lynch A today and B tomorrow" with tenuous evidence that B is scum.  So, if you have two scum inspections from a confirmed town cop, "A today, B tomorrow" works.  Otherwise, it's usually a beginner mistake that either

a. Takes a focus off of you purported main case because you're confident about them; the main case can slip away

or

b. Is used by the scumteam to control the town's lynches


Leafsnail and TWS, I'll get to you in a bit.  Just woke up, taking a walk, etc.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 14, 2013, 02:13:14 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:50:32 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 05:47:43 pm

TWS

The way I read the part of your case you linked, its based on her claiming to not know there was a cop, yes? The way I am interpreting this quote from Leafsnail, he is saying the same thing when he says "Vector should know better."

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 31, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 06:27:30 pm

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Yes, our cases are the same, because that's what makes Vector scummy. You're not actually saying anything about the case in question. You just say I'm parroting Leafsnail's case, but I brought my own evidence to the table. You seem to be operating under the delusion that for two people to be voting the same person, those two have to have completely different reasons for that person's scumminess.

I'm not saying that pieces of evidence can't be used in multiple cases. What I'm saying is that your "own" evidence was already pointed out by Leafsnail. At the time, that was all you had.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 13, 2013, 11:50:32 pm

The whole notion of "there's too much WIFOM in letting Cado live" is crap. Her argument was that the possible jailkeeper would be confused by it, but the scumteam would be too. It causes the exact same confusion for both teams.

So you are saying that if Cado survived the night, his inspections would have been believable?

Also, @"Nightcrafter is copying Vector's accusation of buddying":

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 11, 2013, 11:03:23 am

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?

Quote from: Vector on June 11, 2013, 02:23:00 pm

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying

I was first.

---

Pup: Opinions on the cases being debated? Do you think I am scumbuddies with [insert player here]?

---

Quick post. Just got back from a day of flying, feeling worn out.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 02:49:36 pm

Vector,

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 12:01:09 pm

--Lenglon, actually that first part isn't entirely correct.  Most of the problem with chaining lynches is when someone says "Okay, we'll lynch A today and B tomorrow" with tenuous evidence that B is scum.

It looks to me like A is Sheep and B is Nightcrafter here. currently your case on Nightcrafter is:

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 11:56:20 am

For Nightcrafter... it's partially process of elimination, partially the person he replaced over from's general qualities, partially that scummy shortening news Leafsnail picked up.  I haven't looked too much at his recent posts, but ... well, look, that shortening in light of the rolecop thing is really bad.

But anyway, Nightcrafter is not the one I want lynched today.  That would be TheWetSheep, because he's the one I'm sure of.

That... seems rather "tenuous" to me. why did you list him as the second scumteam member, with no qualifiers, at the end of your case on sheep? i mean, you "haven't looked too much at his recent posts", so it doesn't look to me like you actually care about who you fingered there, but that instead you felt the need to finger someone as a second scumteam member because it was the popular thing to do. if you think he's scum why didn't you do your research?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Vector on June 14, 2013, 02:52:53 pm

Did I say: "When A flips scum, we're gonna lynch B?"

No, I did not.  I did most of my research, but I didn't do my publication of results ::)

I have reads on every player in this game.  I am pretty confident in my process of elimination, and not only are there only two people left, but both of them have pretty damning data against them.

. . . Also it was 3 AM and I was kind of giddy, so I went ahead and said what I knew without saying why I know it.  *shrug*

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 05:04:03 am

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

This paragraph is nonsense.  You're accusing me of tunneling, yet you are the one doing so - focusing on exactly one player, declaring them scum, and not even bothering to try and identify the partner that they would need to have.  You're acting like you have to call people scum at the "drop of a hat" in order to have a secondary suspect, which is patently false.  As for what I'm doing, I am trying to give you advice so that you can improve as a player.  Because at the moment your play is appalling.

Firstly: you are right, I've been tunneling you.  Truthfully I've been playing a minimalist game for the past few weeks, finals at school were terrible this quarter and I needed to focus on them.  I apologize for doing so, and that my play has been so terrible.  I'll address your other points later.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

There was a whole week before Vector's return.  If your accusation is true then there'd be no reason to rush at all (hint I wasn't rushing I was trying to post content as soon as possible to prevent the game from freezing up)

Interesting point... I'd not looked at it like that.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

Buddying is an attempt to ingratiate yourself with another player.  There are generally two reasons for doing this:
1. So that the player you were buddying feels that you are less of a threat on some level, and is therefore less inclined to vote you
2. So that the player you were buddying is implicated if you die and flip mafia

Good definition, and unless I'm terribly mistaken some ballance these are pretty much the same definitions as everyone else's right?(Feel free to comment if it isn't)  I know I mostly care about the first point as a valid tell, the second is something to guard against after scum is lynched and you're looking through their interaction history.  Both are as you mention primarily scum behavior, but the first too some degree occurs with town as well.

This is the problem I have with you demanding a second scum; you're obviously not stupid and you know how to avoid drawing attention to your teammates: why the hell would you leave an obvious interaction with someone else?  As such I'm forced to resort to common scum-hunting to find my scum team rather than build a mental palace like yours where you are always correct.  Now yes, there MIGHT be signs that will make sense in retrospect, but unless I can eliminate them on other grounds than their interaction with you; then I must consider them as possible scum team with you.  If I don't, and follow your example of creating a hypothetical scum team in my mind and mention it I'm mentally handicapping myself if I get the first lynch right.

---

Nightcrafter:
Can I call you Night, or do you have a different preferred shortening?

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 13, 2013, 04:28:27 pm

Griffionday: You say the case on me should not be dropped and that you have evidence that Dem is scum. Where is it?

You're referring to these lines:

Quote from: Griffionday on June 12, 2013, 05:32:09 am

Considering his insistence that the case on you must not be automatically dropped (which I agree with) this seems suspicious to me.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 13, 2013, 01:48:05 am

You replaced in for someone who people thought was suspicious (I don't have time to trawl for the pressure right at this minute, but will eventually), and yet your first posts never even mentioned this, and rather jumped straight to your attacks.  You wasted no time trying to figure out if the context of Vector's actions made reasonable sense for a townie to take (or if you did you never commented on them) and your pressure on Dem barely touched the surface of what seemed suspicious about him to me, so yeah; hasty and weak.

Which Snail interpreted as:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 13, 2013, 10:03:15 am

I explained why Vector's actions only make sense for scum (unless lynching a cop is a townie thing to do), and I think my case on Dem was strong.  If you think there are even more damning points against Dem out there then great!  How about we lynch his slot then?

Presumably?

As I mention in the first post I saw a mix of noob-town and scum tells in Dem's behavior: While his attack on me felt very much like a scum going for an easy kill and his initial posts gloaty, everything from then on was... confusing.  I feel like I spent more time trying to get him to understand what exactly I was pressing him on than I did on pressing him.  Hence why I pressed on him for DAYS without being able to satisfy myself enough to compile a lynch case on him, despite the fact that I felt he was intolerably scummy.  The town-tell I mention was actually that he simply was not improving, yeah it's not much of a tell and only a noob-scum tell when it occurs, but I put some stock in it.  My hypothesis is that typically scum will learn how to blend in quicker than town, as they are getting the additional instruction provided by the scum IC; Dem quite frankly wasn't and this lack of change caused me to doubt my read.

My intent with that comment was to attempt to point out another reason why I felt that Leafsnail was suspicious from his early attacks, specifically that he seemed to not have a mental image of Dem as a player before he created his case, which felt very reactionary.  Now I philosophically agree that cases shouldn't automatically be dropped, such as I felt Leafsnail was doing with his own; but right now I read you as town.

---

Everyone:
Sorry for only responding! I'm working on updating my case on Leaf, which is taking longer than I thought it would. 

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Vector: You asked Demdemeh about two questions during the entirety of D1. Why is that?

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 03:23:01 am

Sheep: working on the principal that Vector flips scum, do you think that Leafsnail's accusation of Nightcrafter being her scumbuddy holds water? do you consider the way Nightcrafter voted Leafsnail a form of chainsaw defense? what of the way that Day has been tunneling Leaf all day long?

Respectively:

Yes. I think it's more likely that a Vector-NC scumteam would be spreading out their votes to appear independent than NC chainsawing. It's a pretty easy thing to do as Town, so I'm not reading much into it at the moment.

NightCrafter:

Well then, why aren't you voting Vector for using your arguments?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

Leafsnail:

I did my re-read of the day, but I can't shake the feeling that you are scum.  I think this feeling comes down to the following main areas:


Area 1: Your opening salvo targeted people who wouldn't be around to defend their positions.  I mostly agreed with the Ranger lynch, and doing so made sense in the moment, the fact that it turned out wrong is disappointing, but I feel that you were trying to manipulate the town that just mislynched to target the people who were leading the lynch.  If I were scum I would be doing my best to build the disappointment about the lynch into a lynch on another townie who invested themselves too much into the lynch, or lynched under suspicious reasoning.  This is the primary reason why I was so vicious about your case on Vector.  Yes it was a valid reason to vote, but I feel a bit weak for a lynch case.

You then support this case by pointing to Demdemeh as her potential scum buddy, saying that she must have ignored his play to keep attention away from it.  This is odd to me as my understanding of Vector is that if she considered her scum buddy to be doing something stupid, she'd call them out on it and bus them.  So to me her silence indicates that if anything they are LESS likely to be a scum team than to be one.  As such your intire initial case on Vector is that she "should have known better than to lynch a D1 cop claim" which again is stupid for the same reason: Vector, if she did "know better", probably wouldn't do so as this is a teaching game that she has been taking seriously.  I understand that you may disagree with this reasoning, but I don't think your case against either of them was that strong.


Area 2: You keep saying things that seem to me to be: "If I'm scum and you are honestly suspicious of me you should have opinions on X, Y and Z."  It feels to me like you are trying to control my case against you to keep it on the places where you are not suspicious.  The most blatant one to my eyes is your insistence that I finger a potential partner for you.

Say what I will: you are more experienced at this game than I am.  I don't know how you interact with your partners, and me looking for it will only be speculation.  The goal of scum in this game is to act like town, blatantly indicating your partner is stupid and not something you'd be likely to do.  So why do you keep asking my to examine you in specific, unhelpful, ways?  I can only see it as you trying to control my hunting of you, which is something I can only see scum as doing.

If you have other points that you want me to discuss please bring them up in your response and I'll address them as best as possible.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 05:04:03 am

This is the problem I have with you demanding a second scum; you're obviously not stupid and you know how to avoid drawing attention to your teammates: why the hell would you leave an obvious interaction with someone else?  As such I'm forced to resort to common scum-hunting to find my scum team rather than build a mental palace like yours where you are always correct.  Now yes, there MIGHT be signs that will make sense in retrospect, but unless I can eliminate them on other grounds than their interaction with you; then I must consider them as possible scum team with you.  If I don't, and follow your example of creating a hypothetical scum team in my mind and mention it I'm mentally handicapping myself if I get the first lynch right.

I don't really understand your logic.  If the fact that I'm not stupid means that I'll never drop any kind of associative tell, couldn't you equally argue that the fact that I'm not stupid also means I'll never drop any kind of scumtell, and therefore there's no point in trying to call me scum at all?  Much like regular scumtells, associative tells aren't a thing you can really avoid dropping.

In addition, I really don't see how it could be a mental handicap to be able to form a hypothetical version of the two-man scumteam that actually exists, rather than a hypothetical one-man scumteam that doesn't.  But even if you really think it's impossible to identify two people as scum together, you could at least try to identify two people as scum separately.  Because two mafia members exist and therefore it's dumb to only have one lynch preference.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

Leafsnail:

I did my re-read of the day, but I can't shake the feeling that you are scum.

You have the worst case of tunnel vision I have ever seen.  I will briefly respond to each of your points, and after that I'm not engaging you anymore since you clearly will not be convinced by anything.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

Area 1: Your opening salvo targeted people who wouldn't be around to defend their positions.

This isn't and never has been a scumtell.  The people who are away are no more or less likely to be scum than anyone else, and I was not aware of Dem's absence at the time I made that post even if you think that I should have been.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

I mostly agreed with the Ranger lynch, and doing so made sense in the moment, the fact that it turned out wrong is disappointing, but I feel that you were trying to manipulate the town that just mislynched to target the people who were leading the lynch.

Lynching cop claims in this setup day one is a bad move.  This is a basic point of mafia theory.  I have explained why multiple times.  Heck, you explained why yesterday.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

If I were scum I would be doing my best to build the disappointment about the lynch into a lynch on another townie who invested themselves too much into the lynch, or lynched under suspicious reasoning.  This is the primary reason why I was so vicious about your case on Vector.  Yes it was a valid reason to vote, but I feel a bit weak for a lynch case.

If you assume that I'm scum it does naturally follow that I'm scum, yes.  If you remove that assumption, however, this point is nonsense.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

You then support this case by pointing to Demdemeh as her potential scum buddy, saying that she must have ignored his play to keep attention away from it.  This is odd to me as my understanding of Vector is that if she considered her scum buddy to be doing something stupid, she'd call them out on it and bus them.

Your understanding of Vector is wrong.  In a setup like this, scum really cannot afford to bus day one, because a day one scum lynch puts the mafia at a terrible disadvantage, particularly if both a cop and a jailkeeper exist.  I'd go as far as to say that even a mafia member who can perfectly blend in as town would seriously struggle to recover from that.  Thus you would want to shield your buddies to a degree.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

As such your intire initial case on Vector is that she "should have known better than to lynch a D1 cop claim" which again is stupid for the same reason: Vector, if she did "know better", probably wouldn't do so as this is a teaching game that she has been taking seriously.

Scum ICs are neither required nor expected to work with the town.  I don't know why you think they are, but they are not.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 08:18:48 pm

Area 2: You keep saying things that seem to me to be: "If I'm scum and you are honestly suspicious of me you should have opinions on X, Y and Z."  It feels to me like you are trying to control my case against you to keep it on the places where you are not suspicious.  The most blatant one to my eyes is your insistence that I finger a potential partner for you.

Say what I will: you are more experienced at this game than I am.  I don't know how you interact with your partners, and me looking for it will only be speculation.  The goal of scum in this game is to act like town, blatantly indicating your partner is stupid and not something you'd be likely to do.  So why do you keep asking my to examine you in specific, unhelpful, ways?  I can only see it as you trying to control my hunting of you, which is something I can only see scum as doing.

"controlling my hunting of you" isn't in any way a scumtell, and I don't even understand why you think it is considering that a town player would equally want you to unvote them.  And again, if you think I'm a perfect mafia player who would never drop any kind of associative tell, wouldn't that also mean all your attempts to lynch me are meaningless because I'll never drop an individual tell either?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 16, 2013, 11:06:48 pm

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 05:04:03 am

Can I call you Night, or do you have a different preferred shortening?

Sure thing, Day :P Night is fine, or NC if you're short on keystrokes.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 05:04:03 am

You're referring to these lines:

-snip-

Presumably?

Exactly.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 15, 2013, 05:04:03 am

My intent with that comment was to attempt to point out another reason why I felt that Leafsnail was suspicious from his early attacks, specifically that he seemed to not have a mental image of Dem as a player before he created his case, which felt very reactionary.

The reason I asked was that it seemed odd to say that you knew of a lot of suspicious actions without bringing up any specifically. It looked like you were egging Leafsnail on, telling him that his reasons for a lynch were only a few of many without presenting the many.

---

TWS:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Well then, why aren't you voting Vector for using your arguments?

Vector used different arguments than me. I am voting you because your arguments were copies of Leafsnail's. I say 'were', because I'm referring to before Vector made her big post on her case on you. Her big post gave you a lot of material to hide behind, so I'm not looking at that period of time.

---

Leafsnail: You've been awfully quiet about the current cases on TWS, especially since they involve you. Anything to say on the matter?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 11:31:36 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 16, 2013, 11:06:48 pm

Leafsnail: You've been awfully quiet about the current cases on TWS, especially since they involve you. Anything to say on the matter?

I guess it was worth asking him about the possibility of bandwagonning/buddying, but I think his responses have been pretty credible and I don't think a compelling explanation of his scum motivation has been presented (I don't really get the you/TWS team suggestion at all).

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Lenglon on June 17, 2013, 01:47:28 am

Tiruin: we need a prod on pup

Vector: when is this happening?

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 12:01:09 pm

Leafsnail and TWS, I'll get to you in a bit.  Just woke up, taking a walk, etc.

Sheep

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 13, 2013, 03:23:01 am

Sheep: working on the principal that Vector flips scum, do you think that Leafsnail's accusation of Nightcrafter being her scumbuddy holds water? do you consider the way Nightcrafter voted Leafsnail a form of chainsaw defense? what of the way that Day has been tunneling Leaf all day long?

Respectively:

Yes. I think it's more likely that a Vector-NC scumteam would be spreading out their votes to appear independent than NC chainsawing. It's a pretty easy thing to do as Town, so I'm not reading much into it at the moment.

underline is mine.
could you please expand on the underlined section? I'm not following your train of thought well, especially since Vector and Nightcrafter are voting for the same person right now, not "spreading their votes". and yet you are voting for vector, and seem to think that Vector and nightcrafter are the scumteam.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 17, 2013, 10:24:30 am

Lenglon: I mean that they might at first vote different people to avoid looking like they were working together, then when one finds a good enough reason, switch so they're voting the same person.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Griffionday on June 18, 2013, 02:56:44 am

I'm sorry for not being nearly as active as I should have, this weekend was a mess...

---

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

And again, if you think I'm a perfect mafia player who would never drop any kind of associative tell, wouldn't that also mean all your attempts to lynch me are meaningless because I'll never drop an individual tell either?

No, but since you're asking me to look for associative tells, I must assume that you are fairly confident that you've disguised them well enough to blend in.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

You have the worst case of tunnel vision I have ever seen.  I will briefly respond to each of your points, and after that I'm not engaging you anymore since you clearly will not be convinced by anything.

Eh... I've exhausted myself here and have nothing to show for it.  I apologize for the hideous tunneling, I'll try to focus elsewhere until later tomorrow when it comes time to lynch (Mafia days).  Fair?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem -- Day 2 -- In the Hall of Glass
Post by: Tiruin on June 18, 2013, 04:47:21 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, nightcrafter27
• Vector(3) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail, Lenglon
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(1) - griffinpup

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 18, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130618T21&p0=145&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

"_{I don't see anything.}"
"_{Shush, what did we learn from yesterday? Those trapdoors. Sure, we didn't see what remained of the Ambassador, but can we really trust the Keeper's words?}"
"_{What in blazes are you talking about?}"
"_{What she said earlier. Firstly, there would be a beast to harry us if we didn't do anything. Then this runed tablet which I've no idea on why it exists here.}"
"_{Here, here. We've still an invisible assailant if this tension is to go anywhere. Where should we be looking??...}"

---

Flavor for day 1, as well as flavor for night actions will be given at day 2 end because argh these 12 hour uni schedules x_x

Title: BM XLI: Night 2: A Silent Night
Post by: Tiruin on June 18, 2013, 04:26:58 pm

"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all."

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, nightcrafter27
• Vector(3) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail, Lenglon
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(1) - griffinpup

Night 2 has begun and will end at June 20, 2013. [Thursday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130620T21&p0=145&fg1=a39de0&fg2=d390c2&msg=Night+2+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

Vector has been lynched! She was a Vanilla Town IC!

Quote

You are an Aeromancer. A teacher, a linguist, a scholar, a mathematician, a visionary, and an idealist are among most other things you've accomplished. Holding a position of renown among the schools of magic, an Aeromancer's duty is to be able to manipulate the very fabrics and laws of air and aerodynamics to their own thoughts and words. The latter notion, you've perfected without the prior use of magic, something which gives credence to your position.

Granted, you had to carry a knife at the time of that event...something which you would've cut a pie gifted to you--and something which the inspecting guards didn't believe as being not the killing weapon 'because it smelt of pie.' Figures.

Despite the usual minor trivialities of the day, your only weapon now would be your tongue and your wisdom in the war of words.

((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

((You are an IC!))

---

The seconds pass with tension hanging in the air, until Vector holds up her index finger as a gesture of silence, and grabs the bucket.

"Behind you."

The mirrorholder is splashed by the water! The mirror is wet! The holder is wet!

"W-what was that for?"

"One. Dispersion of light." She throws the bucket up--"Two, to create a passage for the viable application of force."--and casts a spell, hurling the bucket at breakneck speed, with a collateral effect on the holder who is pushed away for a split second, leaving the mirror hanging in the air before it shatters due to kinetic force.

"Three, action must be taken."

With the breaking of the mirror, the light rays diffuse and the runed tablet remains lit. The runes shimmer until they turn a melancholic gold, forming comprehensive words until the runes themselves melt and twist, turn and envelop each other and the tablet they're etched on/ Soon enough, the slurry of light fades into a diaphanous blanket, envisioning a scene which reminds you much of the ramparts of the Aerie.

"Impossible."

There were figures not in guard uniform, or even commoner wear moving throughout the area, cloaked and most likely not wanting to be seen by conventional eyes.

"This is impossible! Invaders in the perimeter of the Aerie? We must warn the people!"
"I fear it is too late. The tablet wasn't a trap or a tool for the enemy, and it was hard enough to decipher it, but a scrying instrument."

The tablet shimmers as the conversation drags on, slowly humming.

"Is it supposed to do that?"
"I am only a mage of the tradewinds, not a divination expert. But as far as I know. No."
"Why is it humming."
"Interference. Either those figures have wards protecting them against unwanted eyes--wards which we usually use here, mind you--or a physical being is close enough to interrupt the flow of magic."
"Err..you're right there, and I'd rather go with the latter...Look behind you."

The display of the situation was enthralling. The notion of a magical scrying device noting danger from below, as well as from within was much of a concern. Apparently, too much of a concern that it distracted the people from their main problem: the Beast.

"Spider! Above you!"

The spider itself, was perched in the same position it was always in. At a clearer view, you notice something akin to silk weaving covering its carapace and forming a small, thin cocoon around it. The webbing was reflecting and shifting the direction of the light. To make matters worse, Dariush disappears in a pungent, albeit cute, puff of smoke.

"I've got the door!"
"Quick! Move out!"

And as if on cue, the cocoon cracks; minute tears in the wreath covering the arachnid appear as you run towards the door, their opening only heard as your footsteps carry you away from the threat.

Tendrils of opaque smoke emanate from the cocoon, spreading from their point of origin and falling to the ground, moving and forming a darker and more sinister version of the spider and only until you reach the door that you see its true form. It was a being of magic, and it was moving at a pace much faster than any other creature of that size you've ever seen, straight in your direction.

"Quick, down the corridors! No time to shut that thing in."
"I'm stopping this here and now! Take this, it'll help."
"No, Vector, we can't leave you here!"
"Trust me. This'll make up for everything. Now go, before this gets bloody."

Footsteps echo through hollow halls. A decision was made, and the group fled, not turning an eye back on what would occur next. The appearance of alcoves and widened corridors mark your path indicating the approach to the Main Hall.

It seemed all to easy, until a strong gust of wind rushes past and knocks you all to the ground, snuffing all sources of light and coating the passage in a thin sheet of ice. One common thought passes mention before you black out.

She is innocent.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2013, 11:18:57 am

"Courage doesn’t always roar, sometimes it’s the quiet voice at the end of the day whispering ‘I will try again tomorrow’."

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(0) -
• Leafsnail(0) -
• Not Voting(5) - Griffionday, Lenglon, nightcrafter27, TheWetSheep, Leafsnail

Day 3 has begun and will end at June 26, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130626T21&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+3+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

Heat.

Light.

The familiar feeling on your skin wakes you up from your slumber; the horror of recent events now only a vague memory as you make a headcount.

One. Two. Three. Four.

Five.

Five left. And it had all been so perfect before you set up safety back in the hall. The very same hall in where the troubles began. Safety is here, but the lack of one of your number leaves a sinking feeling in your hearts.

The presence of your weapons in the area only makes the enormity of the situation worse as you realize there is but one observer. The White King.

"I've had enough of this. We're being led around like animals. Why can't we end this right here and now?"
"Because we're dwindling. And I believe the only help we can get is from ourselves."
"Don't tell me they're still watching."

One of you gestures out the stained glass window. Balls of iridescent fire were floating about.

"Just. Perfect."

---

griffinpup has been slain! He was a Jailkeeper!

Quote

You are a Gryphon Handler. A man of stern build and sterner principle, a handler's duty lies in the correct application of force, knowledge, word and calm when need me. Ever since birth, you've found yourself with a charisma which few others could contend with--even the animals felt your gift, and embraced your presence. You, being the man you are, received them in turn; the use of your skills and their application would prove worthwhile in the trials of the days coming.

Who the killer may be, and based from what you've seen and heard, you've made a personal promise to stop such a tragedy from happening again. While your life has been always on the lower rung of the noble ladder of society (in terms of work, you're quite a good man), you know a few tricks up your sleeve which even the guardians of the Aerie would pay to know. While you aren't as skilled as the Wardens of the bastion, nor as tactful as the inquisitorial forces, you're the best they have at the moment.

A suspect under grounds of death, and yet, a tool for the safekeeping of life.

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Jail any individual, except yourself. This saves the target if the same target was singled out for death during the Night but also blocks the target from acting. This does not stop any inspects from working on the target, however.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

---

A small excuse for me being burdened by all this work. Sorry for the lack of flavor, everyone. I'll get to posting it down..later on. :X

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Dariush on June 20, 2013, 01:44:32 pm

One of the iridescent ballls is waving a small red flag and pipes in an unnaturally high voice 'Go team scum!'. You wonder what that is supposed to mean.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: zombie urist on June 20, 2013, 02:48:03 pm

Noooo. Go team town!

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

OK then. We're at Lylo.

Leafsnail: I take it you're surprised Vector flipped town. So am I. What are you thinking now?

Lenglon: Did you mean to keep your vote on Vector until day end?

Griffionday: If it's obvious that your lynch target isn't being lynched, do you think it's a good idea to keep your vote on them or to switch to someone less scummy but who has a possibility of being lynched? Because it looks to me like you were keeping your vote in the background. Also, why did you not respond to most of Leafsnail's long post?

NightCrafter: I suppose you're even more sure I'm scum now. But to address your accusations of bandwagoning, I'll pose you the same question I asked Vector that never got answered:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Vector on June 21, 2013, 04:14:21 pm

Hi dudes.

You're playing a game of mafia.  There's two scum left, and only one person who is playing has posted.

How's about you actually show up, rather than handing the game over via a LYLO no-lynch?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 21, 2013, 04:35:01 pm

Wait. Day ends today?

Extend. I know it's not enough, but seeing as I'm the only player who's posted, can we get an extension anyway?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Vector on June 21, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

It ends next Wednesday.

However, activity is necessary, sooner rather than later.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 21, 2013, 05:19:34 pm

Oh, I see. I was looking at the date for the end of the night, not today.

Withdraw extension request

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 21, 2013, 07:53:21 pm

Sheep:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

Griffionday: If it's obvious that your lynch target isn't being lynched, do you think it's a good idea to keep your vote on them or to switch to someone less scummy but who has a possibility of being lynched? Because it looks to me like you were keeping your vote in the background.

If you're convinced that your target is scum then in my opinion you should keep your vote on them.  My problem was that I only had a clear read on Leaf, and didn't have enough of an opinion of the main candidates to weigh in and use my vote properly.

I don't think its a good idea to switch your vote just to lynch somebody you don't have a clear read on, as the goal isn't to lynch someone in general, rather to lynch scum.  This shouldn't have been a problem as I SHOULD have had reads on everyone.  But I didn't, so I missed an opportunity to tie the vote to force MYLO or better yet lynch scum and prevent this from happening.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

Also, why did you not respond to most of Leafsnail's long post?

You mean the one where he said the following?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

I will briefly respond to each of your points, and after that I'm not engaging you anymore since you clearly will not be convinced by anything.

I responded to his questions as far as I'm aware, and I'm going to hunt for the other scum.

Same question you asked Leafsnail: What are you thinking now?  Why are you asking a question that is either RVS type or a request for him to do something you can copy?

---

Lenglon:
Toward the end of yesterday you seem primarily to be waiting around on Vector to have her respond.  Why did you not request an extension?

---

Night:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 16, 2013, 11:06:48 pm

The reason I asked was that it seemed odd to say that you knew of a lot of suspicious actions without bringing up any specifically. It looked like you were egging Leafsnail on, telling him that his reasons for a lynch were only a few of many without presenting the many.

Egging him on despite telling him that his reads were shallow and based on a precursory examination?  That's wasn't my intention, no.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.
Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.
Vector: Aren't you dead? Anyway, I waited to post on purpose this time, I wanted to see who Leaf would push a lynch on to confirm a theory of mine, but you're right. I've waited more than long enough.

---

Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision. My current working theory is that your scumbuddy is nightcrafter, and you're going to abandon your case on him with the excuse that it was mostly associative tells, leaving us with the impression that you two couldn't possibly be scumbuddies. that way even if we lynch one of you today you'll win tomorrow because the other one will be "clean". basically, as soon as you replaced in, you pushed very, very strongly for the lynch of our strongest town player while she wasn't there, while performing a low-pressure undefendable bus on your scumparter. you figured that all you needed to do to guarantee a scum win was remove the largest threat day 2 and make sure that either today or tomorrow we make a mislynch. I have no intentions of letting this happen.
Day: Each day, at day end, you were voting solo for someone. Why?
Sheep: could you please restate why you voted for Vector yesterday?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Vector on June 21, 2013, 10:56:55 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Vector: Aren't you dead? Anyway, I waited to post on purpose this time, I wanted to see who Leaf would push a lynch on to confirm a theory of mine, but you're right. I've waited more than long enough.

Yes, I am.  I'm also an IC, and I've got responsibilities alive or dead.

>:I

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 21, 2013, 11:28:52 pm

Now that RL isn't trying to eat me...

---

TWS:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

NightCrafter: I suppose you're even more sure I'm scum now. But to address your accusations of bandwagoning, I'll pose you the same question I asked Vector that never got answered:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Look for more evidence, and clear up that final 20%. Double check things that haven't been brought up. Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments. Everyone here is human, and everyone will have differing opinions on suspicious behavior. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to compile a case covering everything suspicious ever.

But yeah, I still think you're scum. TheWetSheep

---

Day:

Quote from: Griffionday on June 21, 2013, 07:53:21 pm

Same question you asked Leafsnail: What are you thinking now?  Why are you asking a question that is either RVS type or a request for him to do something you can copy?

Actually, I am interested in TWS's question to Leafsnail as well. Due to Leafsnail's interaction based method of scumhunting, "What do you think now" seems to be a perfectly valid question. In fact, I would have asked it myself if I hadn't been beaten to the punch.

---

Now to re-read lot of things.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision.

OK, all my doubt is gone.  You are scum.

Why?  Because you supported the lynch on Vector yesterday with your vote.  If you actually believed what you are saying here (which is by the way a blatant echo of Griffionday's points), you should have brought it up yesterday, rather than voting Vector and ignoring me.  As it is, it's obvious you allowed (heck, directly helped cause) the lynch on Vector yesterday and are now planning to use it to get one on me too.  If the case on Vector was so terrible and my actions so obviously scum, why not say so yesterday?

You tried to make up some excuses in your last post, but I'm going to go ahead and say they're bullshit because you never mentioned them at the time.  If you really were reluctant to push the Vector lynch and thought I was the better candidate you could have said so.

I'll try and make a detailed post later about just how badly you're backpedaling, but I think I'll start with

Quote from: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 12:36:59 am

Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense

Quote from: Griffionday on June 21, 2013, 07:53:21 pm

If you're convinced that your target is scum then in my opinion you should keep your vote on them.  My problem was that I only had a clear read on Leaf, and didn't have enough of an opinion of the main candidates to weigh in and use my vote properly.

I don't think its a good idea to switch your vote just to lynch somebody you don't have a clear read on, as the goal isn't to lynch someone in general, rather to lynch scum.  This shouldn't have been a problem as I SHOULD have had reads on everyone.  But I didn't, so I missed an opportunity to tie the vote to force MYLO or better yet lynch scum and prevent this from happening.

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 22, 2013, 11:49:33 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.

What did Shinigami do that made him look town? In my re-read, I found this:

Quote from: Lenglon on May 20, 2013, 10:35:59 am

Quote from: Griffionday on May 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am

You seem to be avoiding noticing that you're being buddied (something appears VERY scum to me).  What is your read on Shinigami?  Are you two REALLY that bad of a scum team that we know both of you before the day even technically starts?

My read on shinigami is possible scum. He's buddying me pretty thouroughly, but it doesn't feel like scum buddying. It feels like he's looking out for me because of the shared situation we were in last game, and the fact that we ended up buddying each other in that game too, with good cause, but it's of course possible that he's scum trying to win allies for later on, or give himself an alibi assuming I get lynched. The reason I'm giving him benefit of doubt is I have trouble envisioning a scum IC that would let him keep it up for this long without telling him that what he's doing is going to get himself lynched.

(This may have been cleared up and I just don't remember)

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.

So you didn't vote to extend because....Vector was inactive? Isn't trying to lynch someone unable to defend themselves part of your case on Leafsnail?

PPE: Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision.

OK, all my doubt is gone.  You are scum.

Why?  Because you supported the lynch on Vector yesterday with your vote.  If you actually believed what you are saying here (which is by the way a blatant echo of Griffionday's points), you should have brought it up yesterday, rather than voting Vector and ignoring me.  As it is, it's obvious you allowed (heck, directly helped cause) the lynch on Vector yesterday and are now planning to use it to get one on me too.  If the case on Vector was so terrible and my actions so obviously scum, why not say so yesterday?

because as I said Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4300100#msg4300100) I was pretty sure one of you were scum, but not both. My opinion on that has not changed, and Vector clearly was not scum. as for why I didn't bring those up earlier? Day already had for pages upon pages of the same arguments phrased slightly differently over and over. I saw no reason to waste my time, but that doesn't change at all the fact that they're true.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

You tried to make up some excuses in your last post, but I'm going to go ahead and say they're bullshit because you never mentioned them at the time.  If you really were reluctant to push the Vector lynch and thought I was the better candidate you could have said so.

That's not what I said, don't try to put words in my mouth like that scumbag. You were not a better lynch canidate. Vector wasn't defending herself properly, and at the time she seemed the scummier of you two.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

I'll try and make a detailed post later about just how badly you're backpedaling, but I think I'll start with

Quote from: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 12:36:59 am

Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense

Yes, that scum pair made sense at the time. If Vector had flipped scum I'd be voting Nightcrafter right now. However, clearly, she didn't. What this meant was that I had to re-evaluate who the scumteam was. The pairing that makes the most sense to me right now is you/Nightcrafter, for the reasons stated above.

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

---

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 22, 2013, 11:49:33 am

What did Shinigami do that made him look town?

Bravery. He did a lot of scummy things day 1, but they all made sense as town from my understanding of his personality. Even after people started to turn on him for it, he kept doing it. I'm certain that as scum he would have played far more conservatively. It was a read that I don't think I can get on most of you, but some people are easier for me to read than others. Shinigami is one of the easiest.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 22, 2013, 11:49:33 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.

So you didn't vote to extend because....Vector was inactive? Isn't trying to lynch someone unable to defend themselves part of your case on Leafsnail?

That is only one small part of it. When Leafsnail was pushing for a lynch on Vector, it was an attempt to speedlynch someone who was physically unable to defend themselves with accusations they'd never even see before they were lynched. when I decided to not extend, AGAIN, after i'd been the first one to extend  several times in a row to give more time for Vector, she had been back for a full week, and had proven herself to be unwilling to defend herself. she had her chance. in fact, she had more time to defend herself after coming back than most days last total. she still hadn't gotten around to properly responding. It seemed reasonable to think that she never would and reality is we were losing players. Pup hadn't posted anything at all in days, and everyone's posting rates had gone down tons. The day had to end or the game would die of apathy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

Sorry, I wrote a post yesterday in which I voted you and then managed to not post it somehow.  Lenglon.  Also OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.

On the same note:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

Leafsnail: I take it you're surprised Vector flipped town. So am I. What are you thinking now?

That I'll have to talk to Vector about claims and counter-claims after this game.  Also, that Lenglon is pretty blatantly scum for helping to lynch Vector but now attempting to distance himself from it.  I think there's also still a pretty decent chance of nightcrafter being scum.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

because as I said Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4300100#msg4300100) I was pretty sure one of you were scum, but not both. My opinion on that has not changed, and Vector clearly was not scum. as for why I didn't bring those up earlier? Day already had for pages upon pages of the same arguments phrased slightly differently over and over. I saw no reason to waste my time, but that doesn't change at all the fact that they're true.

Oh so you are chaining lynches in the stupidest and wrongest way possible.  Got it.

Hint: "If X is town then Y is scum" is always a terrible way to play, unless you are a mafia member like Lenglon here.  "If X flips scum then Y is scum" doesn't have the same problems because it involves lynching scum.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

That's not what I said, don't try to put words in my mouth like that scumbag. You were not a better lynch canidate. Vector wasn't defending herself properly, and at the time she seemed the scummier of you two.

So why are you now faulting me for voting her?  The fact that Vector is town now retroactively makes the points you agreed with at the time wrong and scummy?

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

Yes, that scum pair made sense at the time. If Vector had flipped scum I'd be voting Nightcrafter right now. However, clearly, she didn't. What this meant was that I had to re-evaluate who the scumteam was. The pairing that makes the most sense to me right now is you/Nightcrafter, for the reasons stated above.

The reasons you stated are things that you should've said yesterday.  If you agreed with Griffionday, you should've supported his argumentation then.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

That is only one small part of it. When Leafsnail was pushing for a lynch on Vector, it was an attempt to speedlynch someone who was physically unable to defend themselves with accusations they'd never even see before they were lynched. when I decided to not extend, AGAIN, after i'd been the first one to extend  several times in a row to give more time for Vector, she had been back for a full week, and had proven herself to be unwilling to defend herself. she had her chance. in fact, she had more time to defend herself after coming back than most days last total. she still hadn't gotten around to properly responding. It seemed reasonable to think that she never would and reality is we were losing players. Pup hadn't posted anything at all in days, and everyone's posting rates had gone down tons. The day had to end or the game would die of apathy.

If you thought any of this stuff you should have said it at the time.  As it is, it's painfully obvious that you're making it up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

Oh so you are chaining lynches in the stupidest and wrongest way possible.  Got it.
Hint: "If X is town then Y is scum" is always a terrible way to play, unless you are a mafia member like Lenglon here.  "If X flips scum then Y is scum" doesn't have the same problems because it involves lynching scum.

Right. It's terrible. With no explanation or reasoning, and only mentioned HOW many days after the linked post? seriously, if you're going to try to dismiss my points I suggest you use more than "Nuh-uh!"

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

So why are you now faulting me for voting her?  The fact that Vector is town now retroactively makes the points you agreed with at the time wrong and scummy?

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

The reasons you stated are things that you should've said yesterday.  If you agreed with Griffionday, you should've supported his argumentation then.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

-snip-

If you thought any of this stuff you should have said it at the time.  As it is, it's painfully obvious that you're making it up.

So you want me to say "Yeah! what he said!" every time someone says something remotely accurate? please, attempt to maintain at least a loose grip on reality.

and your saying that I needed to justify not acting at the time I didn't act is pretty darn messed up. the time you're quoting is the first time someone asked me about it. If I asked sheep, or day, or nightcrafter, why THEY didn't extend yesterday, they'd have to answer the question for the first time too. they didn't have any justification at the time either, so obviously whatever they answer, no matter WHAT is is, is "painfully obvious" that they're making it up!

you're stretching, desperately trying to save your own skin by clinging to anything you can find, and in doing so you're giving yourself away scumbag.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

Whatever you are attempting to accuse me of is a bullshit non-tell and you know it.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

Right. It's terrible. With no explanation or reasoning, and only mentioned HOW many days after the linked post? seriously, if you're going to try to dismiss my points I suggest you use more than "Nuh-uh!"

It's a really basic principle of mafia.  "If X is town then we'll lynch Y" is a standard mafia tactic to chain multiple town lynches together, and if you're town you shouldn't encourage it.  If you're scum you shouldn't do it also because it marks you as scum.

There's really no justification for doing it as town either - it's perfectly possible for a townie to be mistaken, so there's really no situation in which chaining lynches like that makes any sense at all.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

So you want me to say "Yeah! what he said!" every time someone says something remotely accurate? please, attempt to maintain at least a loose grip on reality.

No, but if you fully support every aspect of someone's argumentation I expect you to say so rather than acting in the exact opposite manner.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

and your saying that I needed to justify not acting at the time I didn't act is pretty darn messed up. the time you're quoting is the first time someone asked me about it. If I asked sheep, or day, or nightcrafter, why THEY didn't extend yesterday, they'd have to answer the question for the first time too. they didn't have any justification at the time either, so obviously whatever they answer, no matter WHAT is is, is "painfully obvious" that they're making it up!

If you're voting someone you don't actually think is scum then that is definitely something you should explain at the time, particularly if you're sheeping someone who you think is using scummy reasoning.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

you're stretching, desperately trying to save your own skin by clinging to anything you can find, and in doing so you're giving yourself away scumbag.

You have literally no argumentation for why I'm scum other than "He was wrong about Vector, and even though I was also equally wrong about Vector he's scum and I'm not because I didn't actually agree with him about Vector"

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

Whatever you are attempting to accuse me of is a bullshit non-tell and you know it.

"Nuh-uh!"

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

It's a really basic principle of mafia.  "If X is town then we'll lynch Y" is a standard mafia tactic to chain multiple town lynches together, and if you're town you shouldn't encourage it.  If you're scum you shouldn't do it also because it marks you as scum.

There's really no justification for doing it as town either - it's perfectly possible for a townie to be mistaken, so there's really no situation in which chaining lynches like that makes any sense at all.

"It's scummy because I say it is!" - also, you really should explain why you didn't say anything when I explained my reasoning way back then. All I'm seeing at this point is panicked scum. If there was an actual problem with that kind of reasoning you would have said something about it at the time.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

Quote from: Lenglon on June 14, 2013, 12:36:59 am

Hunuh, well, Lynch vote time.

Vector, individually, still reads as ^%^&#$%^ whenever I read her posts, but Nightcrafter does seem to be following Vector's lead quite tightly, and Vector's actions yesterday were kinda scummy in retrospect.
Nightcrafter attacked Leafsnail on rather weak grounds, then proceeded to follow Vector in voting for Sheep.
Vector has not expanded on her case on Sheep, her accusations of sheep seem rather weak to me, and I'm pretty certain Sheep is town, mostly because of Shinigami's actions earlier.
Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense
Vector's rapid-vote for Ranger really was quite suspicious
if the people to choose between for a lynch are Sheep and Vector, I know where my vote is going.
I think a two-week-long day is more than long enough, Vector, you've had a week to talk, you've said barely anything, and I dont think your case on Sheep holds well. my vote is staying on Vector tonight.

Pup: Speak up, vote someone, extend if you have too (we're only one vote away), but please participate. day's about to end and you aren't doing anything.

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well. Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

No, but if you fully support every aspect of someone's argumentation I expect you to say so rather than acting in the exact opposite manner.

not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

If you're voting someone you don't actually think is scum then that is definitely something you should explain at the time, particularly if you're sheeping someone who you think is using scummy reasoning.

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

You have literally no argumentation for why I'm scum other than "He was wrong about Vector, and even though I was also equally wrong about Vector he's scum and I'm not because I didn't actually agree with him about Vector"

You haven't been paying attention if you think that's all I'm saying.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 23, 2013, 01:17:30 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Day: Each day, at day end, you were voting solo for someone. Why?

I wasn't actually: Day 1 Ranger was voting for Demdemeh as well as me.

But that's not what you wanted to know: Day 1 I was applying pressure to Demdemeh to see if he would crack.  I was never satisfied by his behavior, so my vote never left him.  Day 2, I hadn't moved on from Leaf; so my vote was still on him.

---

Night:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 21, 2013, 11:28:52 pm

Actually, I am interested in TWS's question to Leafsnail as well. Due to Leafsnail's interaction based method of scumhunting, "What do you think now" seems to be a perfectly valid question. In fact, I would have asked it myself if I hadn't been beaten to the punch.

Hmm... good point.  Sorry Sheep.

---

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?

Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Tiruin on June 23, 2013, 06:56:42 pm

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(1) - Leafsnail
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - nightcrafter27
• Leafsnail(1) - Lenglon
• Not Voting(2) - Griffionday, TheWetSheep,

Day 3 has begun and will end at June 26, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130626T21&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+3+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

One of you tips over the weapon rack where all your crafts are stored, only to find them stuck as if they were glued and welded on the wooded frame.

"Blast it. We can finally get our weapons free, without any watcher other than those fireballs and that strange fluffball with a flag, and then this. Who has a ludicrous amount of strength in 'em?"
"I believe you're looking for these."
The White King comes nearer, still holding his sword from it's sheath.
"Your weapons are ours. Our weapons, are yours."
"For what infallible reason is that?"
"It makes sense..I've never had a sword this long before. You know."
"Nor are all of us having swords."
"Right, fine. I'm tired enough to stop arguing that point. How do you propose we're getting those?"
"You ask for the right type."
"No. Really."

He gestures at the debris pile nearby.

"Of course. Does anyone remember the specific names?"

Silence reigns for moments until the conversations start again.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 09:33:35 am

PFP: Busy day today, I might e able toget a post in this evening.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Griffionday, TheWetSheep: I'd like to strongly advise you to vote.  The town cannot win on a no lynch at lylo, and barring a scum error it cannot win unless all three townies are voting for a mafia member.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

"Nuh-uh!"

The onus is on you to provide some kind of argumentation if you're making up a new tell

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

"It's scummy because I say it is!" - also, you really should explain why you didn't say anything when I explained my reasoning way back then. All I'm seeing at this point is panicked scum. If there was an actual problem with that kind of reasoning you would have said something about it at the time.

It's scummy because there's absolutely no way of logically arriving at that conclusion.  I'm gonna go into IC mode for a bit to explain this.  I'll do so by comparing it to two seemingly similar but far more likely to be valid statements.

"If X flips scum, then Y is also likely to be scum" - Can make sense because it's possible to see interactions between mafia members.  If player X and player Y had a scummy interaction, then player X flipping scum helps solidify a scum read on player Y.  Often valid.

"If X flips scum, then Y is likely to be town" - As above, but in reverse.  If the interaction between X and Y does not look like a scumteam interaction, then it follows that with X shown to be scum Y is not likely to be.  Also fairly valid.

"If X flips town, then Y is likely to be scum" - Almost always nonsense.  Player X is town, so there cannot be a scum-scum interaction between X and Y.  This means that both of the above arguments are invalid, and there's really nothing to replace it.  The most common form of it, "If player Y is wrong about X being scum then player Y is scum" is also terrible, because it's possible for a townie to be mistaken.  There's really no logical justification for it at all.

So there's no real townie motivation behind it.  But there is a strong scum motivation behind it - you can get one mislynch, then push another mislynch immediately afterwards using the backlash from the first.  As there is a strong scum motivation for chaining lynches in this way and no real townie motivation, it is a scumtell.

Anyway, as for why I didn't address your previous post, it's because you weren't chaining lynches then - just expressing your opinion on who was scum.  Further, you also said that "I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations" - implying that you were just undecided rather than preparing to chain lynches.  Also note how that quote implies my accusations had some validity - you wouldn't care about Vector's response to a bullshit case.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

The post where you say Vector looks like scum and a scumteam involving her makes a lot of sense?  Yeah.  Absolutely nothing in that post implies that I was your preferred target at the time, and you even explicitly agreed with one of my points and disagreed with a point made against me.  Heck, nothing in that post suggests that your Vector vote was reluctant.  You are trying to retroactively change your reasoning after the fact, which is scummy because it implies you are looking to mislynch people with lies rather than find scum with honest reasoning.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.

But you make three separate points implying that you think Vector is scum, and didn't allude to any more preferable target.  If you really were reluctant about the vote, you should have said so.  I'll go further, in fact: you would have said so.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.

I do not disagree with the principle of a tie-breaker vote.  If you had stated at the time "I don't think that Vector is very scummy, but she's the best of two bad options and I don't want a no lynch" then that would be fine.

But you didn't.  You said absolutely nothing to suggest any of that, so it's clear that you're now lying because telling that lie makes it easier for you to start attacking me for something you had no problem with (and indeed went along with yourself) yesterday.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

See above, on how chaining lynches like this is bad and scummy

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.

Captain Ford being unable to play makes him scum, somehow?  In any case, you are saying here that you agreed with the bulk of Griffionday's reasoning, but never once mentioned it yesterday.  Your "useless" argument is silly - no mafia members have been lynched so far, so you could argue that every single player in this game has been useless by that token.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

See the rest of this post

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

You haven't been paying attention if you think that's all I'm saying.

Nuh uh

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:27:42 pm

But seriously guys vote and express your opinions and stuff because there's basically no chance of winning if there isn't a majority vote on someone today.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 24, 2013, 09:27:07 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:27:42 pm

But seriously guys vote and express your opinions and stuff because there's basically no chance of winning if there isn't a majority vote on someone today.

You're right of course.  I'll vote when my reads clear some.

You did miss my questions for you though (I know I'm being slightly hypocritical by asking for advice on how to play, but I honestly want to know your opinion):

Quote from: Griffionday on June 23, 2013, 01:17:30 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?

Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.

---

Sheep:
As your primary target turned up town, what are you now thinking?  Do you still consider NightCrafter likely scum as Leaf does, or have your reads shifted to other players?

---

Lenglon:
I have to agree with Leafsnail; why did you fail to mention your opinion of my case on Leaf yesterday rather than just tunneling Vector?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Griffionday, TheWetSheep: I'd like to strongly advise you to vote.  The town cannot win on a no lynch at lylo, and barring a scum error it cannot win unless all three townies are voting for a mafia member.

Very true, get in here guys.

---

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

The onus is on you to provide some kind of argumentation if you're making up a new tell

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

---

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

-logic behind lynch chains based on town flips being bad policy-

That... actually, that's pretty reasonable, thank you. I'll go ahead and drop that aspect of my case on you then.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Anyway, as for why I didn't address your previous post, it's because you weren't chaining lynches then - just expressing your opinion on who was scum.  Further, you also said that "I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations" - implying that you were just undecided rather than preparing to chain lynches. 

You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Also note how that quote implies my accusations had some validity - you wouldn't care about Vector's response to a bullshit case.

Your response bugs me - more on this farther down.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

The post where you say Vector looks like scum and a scumteam involving her makes a lot of sense?  Yeah.  Absolutely nothing in that post implies that I was your preferred target at the time, and you even explicitly agreed with one of my points and disagreed with a point made against me.  Heck, nothing in that post suggests that your Vector vote was reluctant.  You are trying to retroactively change your reasoning after the fact, which is scummy because it implies you are looking to mislynch people with lies rather than find scum with honest reasoning.

same thing here.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.

But you make three separate points implying that you think Vector is scum, and didn't allude to any more preferable target.  If you really were reluctant about the vote, you should have said so.  I'll go further, in fact: you would have said so.

again, same issue as the above two quotes, and I want to group my response to avoid giant walls all the time.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.

I do not disagree with the principle of a tie-breaker vote.  If you had stated at the time "I don't think that Vector is very scummy, but she's the best of two bad options and I don't want a no lynch" then that would be fine.

But you didn't.  You said absolutely nothing to suggest any of that, so it's clear that you're now lying because telling that lie makes it easier for you to start attacking me for something you had no problem with (and indeed went along with yourself) yesterday.

again, same thing.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

See above, on how chaining lynches like this is bad and scummy

Fair, I'll abandon this part of my accusation.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.

Captain Ford being unable to play makes him scum, somehow?  In any case, you are saying here that you agreed with the bulk of Griffionday's reasoning, but never once mentioned it yesterday.  Your "useless" argument is silly - no mafia members have been lynched so far, so you could argue that every single player in this game has been useless by that token.

No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions. you replaced in, and then immediately tunneled two people who weren't even there, and flat refused to scumhunt anyone who could actually respond because you were worried that your tunneling targets might not get lynched if you did. hell, today you didn't even post anything until I voted you, at which point you then voted me for doing it and have been ignoring everyone else's questions ever since. I have yet to see you scumhunt, that seems pretty darn useless to me.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

See the rest of this post

Yeah, I'm looking, and I don't see it. If you had something meaningful here, please explain it.

---

now then, in all of the above sections that I said I'd answer them in one big block down here, you assume I'm attacking your case on Vector. That's a load of crap. As I said in every single damn post I've made all of day 3.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

Your Case.
On Vector.
Was Fine.

Trying.
to Speedlynch her.
And Tunneling her.
To the exclusion.
Of all else.
Was the problem.

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.

In short, you're panicking, and showing as scum through and through as a result.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:36:45 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 24, 2013, 09:27:07 pm

Lenglon:
I have to agree with Leafsnail; why did you fail to mention your opinion of my case on Leaf yesterday rather than just tunneling Vector?

Vector seemed more scummy than Leaf at the time, and Leaf wasn't up for lynch.
also, you were rambling on and on about the exact same things over and over, and I didn't want to give you encouragement.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 09:37:02 pm

Ok, time for clarifications and getting people talking.

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

I'm sorry, but I'm not exactly sure how the logic behind this works. How would voting for you cause Leafsnail to prove that I am his scumbuddy?

---

TWS, could you answer Day's question? Basically, your thoughts on people now that Vector flipped town?

---

Leafsnail, do you have a secondary scumpick, or is it still me? If so, do you have new evidence?

---

Day Oh wait, you just posted

(Dang it, I take too long to write these posts. Leafsnail and Day both got theirs in)

PPE:
(YOU TOO LENGLON. Posting this, getting to Day and Lenglon is a sec)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 10:12:44 pm

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 09:37:02 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 22, 2013, 01:45:29 pm

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

I'm sorry, but I'm not exactly sure how the logic behind this works. How would voting for you cause Leafsnail to prove that I am his scumbuddy?

It actually wouldn't, but the psudo-logic behind the statement chained off of this:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

My current working theory is that your scumbuddy is nightcrafter, and you're going to abandon your case on him with the excuse that it was mostly associative tells, leaving us with the impression that you two couldn't possibly be scumbuddies. that way even if we lynch one of you today you'll win tomorrow because the other one will be "clean". basically, as soon as you replaced in, you pushed very, very strongly for the lynch of our strongest town player while she wasn't there, while performing a low-pressure undefendable bus on your scumparter. you figured that all you needed to do to guarantee a scum win was remove the largest threat day 2 and make sure that either today or tomorrow we make a mislynch. I have no intentions of letting this happen.

reality is it wouldn't be proper proof, and I can't use it in a case against you, but I figured there's no harm in going fishing - he might drop some kind of tell as to who his scumbuddy is, whether it's you or not. Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum. He could simply be trying to frame you after all. the whole issue is WIFOM fuel at this point.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 10:16:38 pm

Sorry about not posting for a while. As I'm pretty unsure about everyone, I'm doing a reread. I'll try to get my post out soon.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 11:00:14 pm

Lenglon

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 03:36:38 am

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

From my interpretation, these points aren't saying the same thing, and some don't seem to support your case. The first is a reason for voting Vector. Ok. But that doesn't really have much to do with the points you make. How does it show that Leafsnail's actions were scummy while his case was not?

The other two present reasons for you to have pressed Leafsnail and expressed your suspicions day 2. You didn't, and that is a big part of Leafsnail's case on you. The evidence you are trying to use against his arguments is shooting yourself in the foot here. Can you point to any post of yours where you said that you think Leafsnail is tunneling or trying to speed lynch Vector during day 2?

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 10:12:44 pm

Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum.

I too wait for him to reply to me. But if you go with the presented logic, you can effectively make me into everyone's scumbuddy.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 21, 2013, 10:52:24 pm

Sheep: could you please restate why you voted for Vector yesterday?

Partly Leafsnail's case on her, that she was a leader of the Ranger lynch when she should have known better, and then she came out with a case on me that was pretty terrible and seemed forced.

Nightcrafter:

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 21, 2013, 11:28:52 pm

TWS:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2013, 07:10:57 pm

NightCrafter: I suppose you're even more sure I'm scum now. But to address your accusations of bandwagoning, I'll pose you the same question I asked Vector that never got answered:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2013, 10:42:16 am

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Look for more evidence, and clear up that final 20%. Double check things that haven't been brought up. Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments. Everyone here is human, and everyone will have differing opinions on suspicious behavior. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to compile a case covering everything suspicious ever.

But yeah, I still think you're scum. TheWetSheep

And that's what I tried to do, when I had time. So what exactly is your case on me?

Quote

Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments.

Oh look. Another thing that's exactly what I did, at the very beginning. I looked at the beginning through Vector's posts and saw that it was very unlikely that she put that much thought into the setup but missed that there was a cop.

---

I took a a rather different approach in trying to find scum this time. I wrote down a list of all the possible scumteams(excluding me, of course):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. Lenglon-Griffionday
2. Lenglon-Leafsnail
3. Lenglon-Nightcrafter
4. Griffionday-Leafsnail
5. Griffionday-Nightcrafter
6. Leafsnail-Nightcrafter

And I looked through interactions between them. I saw some pretty genuine-looking conversations between Lenglon and Griffionday, and Griffionday and Nightcrafter, so I'll take those pairs off for now. Also, I'm getting a pretty strong town read off of Demdemeh/Nightcrafter(some reasoning below), so I'll take off the pairs that include him. That leaves us with two pairs: Lenglon-Leafsnail and Griffionday-Leafsnail. In Day 2 Griffionday and Leafsnail had a long debate about playstyle that wasn't really related to the game, and I can't really see that being a conversation between to mafia-buddies. That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

I know this isn't really conclusive reasoning, but I spent a long time re-reading the thread and I'm going to leave it at this for now. I'll try to do some pressuring/questions soon.

NC/Dem's Towniness:

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:12:51 pm

That last statement about town taking out the power roles just kind of clinches it for me, I think. RangerCado is the scum cop, and GDay is his godfather friend.

Quote from: Demdemeh on May 25, 2013, 10:32:04 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2013, 10:27:17 pm

Dem: You do know theres no guarentee for a godfather right? It could be a roleblocker instead. For all we know there could be the Mafia Role Cop and a Regular Mafia only. The only one that seems guarunteed is the Role Cop judging from pre-game conversation.

Yeah. You're right. I just glanced back again and noticed that, too. Which role does GDay have, Cado, since you're the cop?

Here are the setups:

Quote from: Leafsnail on May 16, 2013, 06:22:10 pm

The one I suggested a while back was

Quote from: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

There is no Godfather or Roleblocker possible. I don't think scum would have missed that.

---

This post is kind of fragmented and probably doesn't answer everything, but I want to end it here. I'll try to flesh it out tomorrow.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:06:06 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 24, 2013, 09:27:07 pm

You did miss my questions for you though (I know I'm being slightly hypocritical by asking for advice on how to play, but I honestly want to know your opinion):

Sorry, I got caught up in responding to Lenglon

Quote from: Griffionday on June 23, 2013, 01:17:30 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 22, 2013, 11:13:03 am

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?

I can't really give you a hard and fast time.  It depends on the situation a bit.

If the town is heading for a no lynch through a tie and you just want to make sure somebody or your preferred candidate is lynched, then you can make a tie-breaker vote with just a few hours to go.  If the town is heading for a lynch on someone you strongly think is town and you're trying to rally a counter-wagon, then you need to switch with enough time to change people's minds.  I'd say you need at least 24 hours to have any real hope of convincing anyone, and I'd probably up that to 48 hours if you have to convince more than one person to switch.  That said, if you're positive the lynch you're pushing is a no-hoper then there's no real harm in switching to a secondary target immediately.

I kindof prefer games with majority hammervotes since they force the town to try and compromise on who they think is scum and I think that's useful, but they tend to have really long days.

Quote from: Griffionday on June 23, 2013, 01:17:30 pm

Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.

I was surprised that Vector would play that way as town, and I don't think there's really much else that can be said about mislynches.

Generally the best way to respond to being wrong is to simply shift your perspective with the new information in mind.  A mislynch plays out very differently depending on whether you're town or scum, so it's a good scumhunting opportunity.  In order to try and gain new information from it, it's best to
a) look at the people who were on the wagon, to see if anyone was supporting it dishonestly.  By this I mean that their reasoning was flawed to the point where they couldn't have honestly thought it, or that they were supporting the wagon in spite of distancing themselves from the outcome (you have to be careful to differentiate this from compromise play though).
b) look at anyone who was off the wagon but who seemed to be covertly supporting it.  By this I mean people who seemed to support the idea that the person being lynched was scum, but avoided actually voting them, and also people who maybe gave lip service to the idea that the person may have been town but didn't do anything substantial to try and prevent a lynch on them.

In this case, I did so, and the bad feeling I was developing about Lenglon yesterday due to his lurking grew.  The way he came out and directly contradicted himself today also puts him very firmly in category a).

I'll respond to Lenglon and nightcrafter in a new post.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

I really do not understand what you mean by "so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works".  Also you backed away from this statement after nightcrafter pushed you on it so nevermind.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.

I fully understood what you were saying back then.  You're just attempting to retroactively change what you said (funnily enough, to something you now agree is scummy), and I think that should be obvious to all other players.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions.

His play seems to me to be entirely indicative of a lack of time, and the onus is on you to show otherwise.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

you replaced in, and then immediately tunneled two people who weren't even there, and flat refused to scumhunt anyone who could actually respond because you were worried that your tunneling targets might not get lynched if you did. hell, today you didn't even post anything until I voted you, at which point you then voted me for doing it and have been ignoring everyone else's questions ever since. I have yet to see you scumhunt, that seems pretty darn useless to me.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

now then, in all of the above sections that I said I'd answer them in one big block down here, you assume I'm attacking your case on Vector. That's a load of crap. As I said in every single damn post I've made all of day 3.

What the fuck is this?  If I made a case that you agreed with and apparently still think was valid how can you say I wasn't scumhunting?  What is your definition of scumhunting if forming a valid case on somebody isn't it?  Why did you not vote me yesterday for doing this, if it was something I did?  You are contradicting yourself directly here.

I've already explained that I lost a post earlier in the day, which is why I didn't post for a while.  I missed a grand total of one question, too.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

Yeah, I'm looking, and I don't see it. If you had something meaningful here, please explain it.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

Your Case.
On Vector.
Was Fine.

Trying.
to Speedlynch her.
And Tunneling her.
To the exclusion.
Of all else.
Was the problem.

Except you never said this yesterday (incidentally speedlynches are impossible in a non-hammer game, so that accusation is total nonsense).  Making it obvious that you are chainlynching.  Which you've now agreed is scummy.  So thanks for agreeing you're scum, I guess.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.

It's hilarious how badly you're misrepresenting the three points I made against you.  You said that Vector wasn't you favourite target, and that you were only comparing her to TWS as the least bad of two bad options.  I pointed out that everything in the post you made seemed to imply that Vector was your favourite target.  In other words, that you are lying.

Now you're trying to twist my points to mean something else.  It's honestly getting really hard to talk to you, because not only are you retroactively changing and lying about what you did yesterday, but you're also starting to retroactively change and lie about your argumentation today.

I'll make another post for nightcrafter/TWS

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:59:42 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 09:37:02 pm

Leafsnail, do you have a secondary scumpick, or is it still me? If so, do you have new evidence?

Not really.  I'm pretty sure Griffionday is town, which leaves only you and TWS.  I haven't had a detailed look at interactions with Lenglon yet, but my gut instinct is that a TWS/Lenglon team makes more sense than a you/Lenglon team.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

Why vote me instead of Lenglon?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 08:53:07 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 11:00:14 pm

From my interpretation, these points aren't saying the same thing, and some don't seem to support your case. The first is a reason for voting Vector. Ok. But that doesn't really have much to do with the points you make. How does it show that Leafsnail's actions were scummy while his case was not?

The other two present reasons for you to have pressed Leafsnail and expressed your suspicions day 2. You didn't, and that is a big part of Leafsnail's case on you. The evidence you are trying to use against his arguments is shooting yourself in the foot here. Can you point to any post of yours where you said that you think Leafsnail is tunneling or trying to speed lynch Vector during day 2?

no, I cannot. I did not weigh in on the subject in any way, for or against Leafsnail, at the time. the subject never came up, and Day covered it in far more detail than I felt was necessary. Since Leaf wasn't one of the day's lynch targets, I didn't bother to say anything on the matter.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 24, 2013, 11:00:14 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 10:12:44 pm

Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum.

I too wait for him to reply to me. But if you go with the presented logic, you can effectively make me into everyone's scumbuddy.

Considering that, as I said when I presented it, the logic is very flawed, this is not surprising to me. why did you crop out the section where I mentioned the entire thing was nothing but WIFOM fuel?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

I really do not understand what you mean by "so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works".  Also you backed away from this statement after nightcrafter pushed you on it so nevermind.

the hell? nightcrafter never pushed me on this you moron. It remains part of my case. you have been consistently so focused on defense that you haven't been bothering to hunt for scum. This has been demonstrated over and over throughout today and yesterday. I've pointed out many instances of you doing this and you have yet to respond to them to my satisfaction. the quoted instance is simply one example of this.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.

I fully understood what you were saying back then.  You're just attempting to retroactively change what you said (funnily enough, to something you now agree is scummy), and I think that should be obvious to all other players.

Since when has "One of these two is scum, but not both" not implied "If I can prove one of these is town, the other is scum"? you've been reading all kinds of random implied messages into my statements everywhere else, and yet you couldn't figure out this pretty damn basic one? That isn't even remotely plausible.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions.

His play seems to me to be entirely indicative of a lack of time, and the onus is on you to show otherwise.

fair point, and I don't have anything new to mention on the subject, dropping.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

What the fuck is this?  If I made a case that you agreed with and apparently still think was valid how can you say I wasn't scumhunting?  What is your definition of scumhunting if forming a valid case on somebody isn't it?  Why did you not vote me yesterday for doing this, if it was something I did?  You are contradicting yourself directly here.

why didn't I vote you? because although you were using your case wrongly, the case itself was pretty good. I didn't have anything new to add to the conversation and I wasn't ready to lynch vote. Vector failed to respond to your accusations so I ended up pressure voting her, which changed to a lynch vote when I wasn't satisfied with her answers. It's really not that complicated.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

I've already explained that I lost a post earlier in the day, which is why I didn't post for a while.  I missed a grand total of one question, too.

Yeah, I'm SURE you lost a post before my vote on you. It totally wasn't an OMGUS reaction when you voted me... using nothing but the fact that how DARE I vote you after voting for vector yesterday for why you're voting me. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Lying Scumbag.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

Except you never said this yesterday (incidentally speedlynches are impossible in a non-hammer game, so that accusation is total nonsense).  Making it obvious that you are chainlynching.  Which you've now agreed is scummy.  So thanks for agreeing you're scum, I guess.

I never said anything on the subject yesterday... at all. neither for it nor against it. Why? because nobody asked, and you weren't up for lynch. If you want to call me a liar, please, link me to the lie.
secondly, all I said was that I was willing to drop my reasoning that was based on If Vector is Town, then Leafsnail is scum. I'm really sick of you trying to shove words into my mouth.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

It's hilarious how badly you're misrepresenting the three points I made against you.  You said that Vector wasn't you favourite target

when did I say that? link please. right now you're just crazy, panicked, doomed scum.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

and that you were only comparing her to TWS as the least bad of two bad options.

nope. never said that was the least bad of two bad options. there was a completely horrible one, and a decent, but not great, one. the decision between the two of them was easy.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am

I pointed out that everything in the post you made seemed to imply that Vector was your favourite target.  In other words, that you are lying.

Vector was my preferred lynch choice, just above you. I fail to see the problem.

---

ok, working off the assumption that Nightcrafter is simply being framed by Leaf, which is what I think is happening from the way Leaf refused to say anything at all on the matter, I have a problem. I just eliminated all possibilities for who his scumbuddy could be. Sheep is town, Day Vs Leaf from yesterday pretty clearly shows they aren't scumbuddies, and Leaf went out of his way to frame Nightcrafter as scum, which means he's town.

one of those assumptions has to be wrong, so...

Day: Do you think Nightcrafter is being framed by Leaf? why or why not?

Nightcrafter: Could you please re-summarize why Sheep is scum for me?

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 03:13:46 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 25, 2013, 04:12:20 pm

PFP

Lenglon: I cropped out the part about WIFOM because it was irrelevant to te point I was making. I was simply saying that trying to base suspicions off of who thought I was scum is useless because everybody thought I was scum.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 25, 2013, 04:13:37 pm

And I will have a bigger post later, restating my case on TWS

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 04:55:44 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 03:13:46 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector

You really want to try to pull that? You really think that cuts it? how about you put that back in context moron.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

how the hell does that equate to me saying I thought Vector was a bad lynch choice? I said right there that Vector was one of my top lynch choices, and I've stood by my statement that I voted Vector very much on purpose all day. you keep pushing me on this, and I'm really, really tired of having to answer the same accusation over and over and over. At this point, I see no reason to bother responding to this accusation anymore unless someone other than you brings it up. you're stuck in your own personal fairyland where having the arrogance to vote for you equates to scummyness. Grow up scumbag, and get a real case.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:10:59 pm

The context doesn't make it any better, and in fact your new explanation makes it worse.  Apparently, your top lynch candidate was someone who you had no read on at all.  You're saying that Vector, someone you didn't have a scumread on, was your top pick for the lynch.  Then your second pick was someone you did have a scumread on.  Why?  Why the fuck were you trying to lynch someone you didn't see as scummy over someone you did see as scummy?  Like, you didn't have a scumread on Vector, but you decided to trust the scumread of the person you regarded as the scummiest player in the game on her?

I'll try and go through what you said in your previous post tomorrow, but this is really a massive contradiction that sinks you.  Here is what you originally said on the subject:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 23, 2013, 09:07:57 am

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

Tell me this doesn't strongly imply that Vector wasn't your top choice.  Why wouldn't you say "Vector was my top choice as scum" instead of mentioning that it would be a tie otherwise?  If Vector was your top choice then the fact it would be a tie if you didn't vote her wouldn't be a factor at all.  Why would you say that you "I wasn't sure [Vector] was town" as opposed to "I thought Vector was scum"?  If she was your top choice then you should have been able to make a more solid statement than that, unless you felt sure everyone else in the game was town (except this would contradict you saying that you thought I was scummy at the time).

Quote from: Lenglon on June 23, 2013, 12:51:46 pm

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.

And again, this strongly implies that Vector wasn't your top choice, otherwise why would you emphasize that you're only comparing her to TWS?  If she was really your top choice then who you were comparing her to would be completely irrelevant - she'd win in any contest.

Basically, you clearly tried to change tack in post #673 (to "I didn't really want to make the Vector vote, she was the least bad of two options") in order to better defend yourself against a bandwagoning allegation, but then switched back afterwards when it became clear that I had noticed your ruse.  Can you explain how post #673 can be read in a way that implies "Vector was my top choice" and not "stop bashing me for my Vector vote, she wasn't my top choice"?

Finally, I'd like to point out the chainlynching logic in that post.  You've since abandoned that logic, but you haven't explained how you arrived at it in the first place.  My reasoning, which you appeared to fully accept, suggested that chainlynching logic is something that generally comes from mafia members as you cannot arrive at it rationally.  How did you arrive at it, if not by being a mafia member looking for mislynches, then?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 06:38:57 pm

Ignoring your pile of horseshit about my vector vote, as per what I said last post.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:10:59 pm

Finally, I'd like to point out the chainlynching logic in that post.  You've since abandoned that logic, but you haven't explained how you arrived at it in the first place.  My reasoning, which you appeared to fully accept, suggested that chainlynching logic is something that generally comes from mafia members as you cannot arrive at it rationally.  How did you arrive at it, if not by being a mafia member looking for mislynches, then?

Assumption 1: Experienced ICs will consistently arrive at identical conclusions regarding basic aspects of Mafia.
Assumption 2: ICs are practiced enough at lying that they usually will not be caught by a non-IC
Assumption 3: A scum IC will not call out another scum IC for previously undetected scummy behavior.
Assumption 4: the proper way to react to a Day 1 cop claim is a basic aspect of Mafia.
Assumption 5: an IC will usually not nightkill the obvious target if there is a role with a protect in the game.

A) Follow up to 2: the biggest threat to a scum IC is the town IC
B) Follow up to A + 5: a scum IC will attempt to lynch the town IC if the Jailer/Doctor is alive, rather than nightkill them.

Conclusion from 3: Vector + Leafsnail is not the scumteam.
Conclusion from 4 + 1: If Leafsnail is town, Vector is scum.
Conclusion from 1 + B: If Vector is town, Leafsnail is scum.

Final conclusion: Either Leafsnail or Vector is scum, but not both.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 25, 2013, 06:43:24 pm

Leafsnail:

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 06:59:42 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

Why vote me instead of Lenglon?

Wow. I was expecting a grand defense, demanding I back up my claims, saying that my methods were bad and untrustworthy, and so on. Instead, I get this. Simple: The two pairings I thought were most likely were you-Lenglon and you-Griffionday. I chose the common person.

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 08:53:07 am

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

Not that likely, but possible. I know they're both very capable players, but Griffionday doesn't usually take many risks. I could totally see Leafsnail bussing his scumbuddy at this point, though.

---

Leafsnail: Why did you address Lenglon very little during Day 2, despite her being your choice for scum if Vector wasn't (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4311527#msg4311527)?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 06:38:57 pm

Ignoring your pile of horseshit about my vector vote, as per what I said last post.

Ignore the thing that conclusively proves you're a liar, you mean?  Yeah I guess that's pretty good for you.  You can't explain post #673 and you know it.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 06:38:57 pm

Assumption 1: Experienced ICs will consistently arrive at identical conclusions regarding basic aspects of Mafia.
Assumption 2: ICs are practiced enough at lying that they usually will not be caught by a non-IC
Assumption 3: A scum IC will not call out another scum IC for previously undetected scummy behavior.
Assumption 4: the proper way to react to a Day 1 cop claim is a basic aspect of Mafia.
Assumption 5: an IC will usually not nightkill the obvious target if there is a role with a protect in the game.

A) Follow up to 2: the biggest threat to a scum IC is the town IC
B) Follow up to A + 5: a scum IC will attempt to lynch the town IC if the Jailer/Doctor is alive, rather than nightkill them.

Conclusion from 3: Vector + Leafsnail is not the scumteam.
Conclusion from 4 + 1: If Leafsnail is town, Vector is scum.
Conclusion from 1 + B: If Vector is town, Leafsnail is scum.

Final conclusion: Either Leafsnail or Vector is scum, but not both.

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 25, 2013, 06:43:24 pm

Wow. I was expecting a grand defense, demanding I back up my claims, saying that my methods were bad and untrustworthy, and so on. Instead, I get this. Simple: The two pairings I thought were most likely were you-Lenglon and you-Griffionday. I chose the common person.

Why were you expecting me to say your methods are bad and untrustworthy?  Heck, I think I agree with almost all of your reasoning!  Good work on constructing that case, really.  It just needs a little refinement.  Let me just run through it point by point.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

And I looked through interactions between them. I saw some pretty genuine-looking conversations between Lenglon and Griffionday, and Griffionday and Nightcrafter, so I'll take those pairs off for now.

Sure, Griffionday looks really town so I agree with this.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

Also, I'm getting a pretty strong town read off of Demdemeh/Nightcrafter(some reasoning below), so I'll take off the pairs that include him.

Hm, are you?  Ok, fair enough.  I think nightcrafter has been getting better too.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm

That leaves us with two pairs: Lenglon-Leafsnail and Griffionday-Leafsnail. In Day 2 Griffionday and Leafsnail had a long debate about playstyle that wasn't really related to the game, and I can't really see that being a conversation between to mafia-buddies. That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

Well, I agree with the bit about me/Griffionday.  Griffionday looks town and I'm town, so that doesn't seem like a very likely team.  However, I think you should critically analyze the final team you have left - does it really seem likely for mafia members to crossvote violently at lylo, when they could much more easily switch to another target?  I'd say it doesn't, so it's probably fair to eliminate that team.

The weakness of your case is that you failed to consider the other possible teams, but hey, nobody's perfect.  I'll just add them in for you now.

7. TheWetSheep-nightcrafter
8. TheWetSheep-Leafsnail
9. TheWetSheep-Griffionday
10. TheWetSheep-Lenglon

But if nightcrafter looks town, I guess we can eliminate 7.  And we both know that 8 isn't true.  Griffionday looks town so I'll eliminate 9.  And hey, that leaves us with one option, option 10!  Your reasoning was pretty solid, I wouldn't be so quick to sell yourself short.

Serioustalk: I don't see how you could arrive at Lenglon/Leafsnail as a likely team by pair analysis, particularly considering that we are crossvoting at lylo (which is a far better reason to discount a team than anything you listed).  Is there some really weird gambit going on here or what?  In other words, if I am to accept your argument, I naturally arrive at the conclusion that you are scum.  I'd say in fact that a TWS/Lenglon team is looking pretty good, in fact - if he's on your "prime suspect team" then why aren't you pressing him at all?  You literally have not said a single thing to him regarding your suspicion.

I believe I can easily explain both of these observations (that you arrived at a really bizarre scumpair via pair analysis, and that you aren't bothering to pressure one member of your preferred pair at all).  You wanted to find a reason to do a 180 and support a lynch on me today in spite of following me yesterday, but didn't want to go down a similar route to Lenglon who had run into trouble.  So instead you come up with a bullshit method (well, maybe not entirely bullshit - the scumteams you were striking out were actually genuinely not scumteams afterall, since they didn't involve you) and apply it selectively in order to come up with an excuse to vote me.

You aren't attacking Lenglon because he's the other leading candidate to be lynched today, and you'd really rather lynch a townie today and sew the game up.  I really cannot see any other reason why you'd do this.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on June 25, 2013, 06:43:24 pm

Leafsnail: Why did you address Lenglon very little during Day 2, despite her being your choice for scum if Vector wasn't (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4311527#msg4311527)?

Because I thought Vector was scum at the time, and I didn't see a Lenglon/Vector scumteam as credible.  Also Lenglon was lurking very effectively and escaping my notice for a lot of the day.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Assumption 1 was most of your case on Vector. Vector's reasoning for what to do when Ranger claimed cop didn't match you own. You objected to this, violently. if Assumption 1 is patently nonsense, why did you make a lynch case out of it?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

-Sheep's pair analysis-

valid point, I have nothing to add on the matter at this time, but doing want people freaking out if/when I bring this up again later this entire statement is nothing but a waste of space, I shouldn't have to bother saying it at all.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Because I thought Vector was scum at the time, and I didn't see a Lenglon/Vector scumteam as credible.

Why?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Also Lenglon was lurking very effectively and escaping my notice for a lot of the day.

I requested replacement for a reason. since you're the one who asked for me to remove the request I'd think you'd remember that.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 25, 2013, 11:42:58 pm

Distilled version of why TWS is scum from day 2: he had no arguments on Vector besides those that Leafsnail made, nor did he provide any new evidence to supplement the arguments he was agreeing with. He focused only on Vector's voting Cado, and didn't use anything from the rest of day 1. TWS also buddied Leafsnail pretty obviously.

(It seems that TWS and I have conflicting views on the uniqueness of the evidence he did provide. He thinks it's new, I think its still Leafsnail's.)

---

My current theory is that TWS is scumbuddies with Lenglon. I had been keeping this to myself to see if either would let anything slip, but Leafsnail's brought it out already. No more passive observation for me.

First, TWS jumped on to voting Vector with Leafsnail's case. Originally I had thought that Lenglon's reasons for voting Vector were decent enough, but now she's blustering around with Leafsnail (more on this) and claiming that her statements mean different things than what they say. I now think these two bandwagoned Vector. Heck, Shinigami and Lenglon were both voting for RangerCado. TWS's playerslot and Lenglon are the only two players to have voted the same person every single day.

Second, since both Lenglon and TWS were voting for Vector I think the scumteam is/was afraid of blowback from causing a mislynch, and are trying to turn it around back on to Leafsnail. I also think that the scumteam was afraid that since TWS was Vector's primary target, he could be the first up for lynching if they didn't turn it around.

Third, it looks like TWS is distancing himself from Lenglon by listing her as part of the scumteam with Leafsnail, just in case one of them gets lynched and the game doesn't end today. TWS thought very highly of Leafsnail, so I find it unlikely that he would vote for the person he'd been buddying over Lenglon, who is digging herself a hole.

Fourth, Shinigami and Lenglon have felt weird to me, but I can't work too much with that.

So in the interest of lynching scum, Lenglon. Day, you better get in here soon.

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 08:53:07 am

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

This question seems like a really big stretch. You might as well ask if he thinks the argument between you and Leafsnail is faked.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.

The way I'm reading it, Leafsnail isn't "misrepresenting" any statements. What you claim you meant and what your words are saying aren't the same thing, some of which I pointed out here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4346876#msg4346876). Also, you have been doing quite a bit of defense yourself.

---

TWS:

What is your take on Leafsnail and Lenglon's conversation? What made you vote Leafsnail over Lenglon?

---

Mod, Votecount?

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 26, 2013, 12:26:16 am

Extend
Seriously guys, we have less than 8hrs to game over. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130626T21&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+3+End!&csz=1)

---

Leafsnail:

I'm sorry. I know I said I was moving on, but I need to deal my suspicion of you properly or else it's game over today.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 14, 2013, 09:00:14 am

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Because what I thought he did was claim a role that didn't exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Instead, he appeared to claim a role that does exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Basically, the difference between making a stupid mistake and being scummy, vs. just being scummy.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Because I didn't notice what he was doing.

Quote from: Vector on June 13, 2013, 02:16:33 pm

Completely escaped my notice.  Dem felt bad, but there was nothing I could really put my finger on.

The shortening seemed strange to me because they're uncommon, but I figured that hey, the day was wearing on and no one was getting anywhere, it was a good call.  What I didn't notice was where his vote was.

I guess I can believe that.  Now that I've pointed it out, though, would you say that makes him scum, particularly given your previous feeling that his playerslot was scum?

Why where you attempting to shift Vector's vote onto one of your suspects and away from Sheep?  You remained fairly sure that she was scum throughout the day, but here you seem to be treating her as fellow town.  Why?

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 16, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

"controlling my hunting of you" isn't in any way a scumtell, and I don't even understand why you think it is considering that a town player would equally want you to unvote them.  And again, if you think I'm a perfect mafia player who would never drop any kind of associative tell, wouldn't that also mean all your attempts to lynch me are meaningless because I'll never drop an individual tell either?

That's not precisely I meant.  I meant being overly involved in my hunting pattern, and telling me what to look for in you to validate your innocence. 
At the time this made sense as a scum tell, as doing so gives you access to a position of control over me, and having a non-IC townies fall in line and play your game is a pattern of dominance I've seen in other games.  I think outside of BM's this is a null-tell; however, it is something I noticed scum IC's doing, and it rang my bells.  Hence why I'm saying I'm unlikely to find an associative tell; you want me to play your game, and if you were scum you'd point me to your strengths rather than your weaknesses.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Serioustalk: I don't see how you could arrive at Lenglon/Leafsnail as a likely team by pair analysis, particularly considering that we are crossvoting at lylo (which is a far better reason to discount a team than anything you listed).  Is there some really weird gambit going on here or what?

It's actually rather brilliant really.  It is entirely possible that you and Lenglon are the scum team and you are going into lylo attempting to bus each other.

And why not?  All you have to do to win is kick up enough of a smoke screen to cause one of us to vote for someone else.  Unless you were absolutely sure that the person you were voting was scum would you be the last person to vote for them?

I'm well aware that being able and willing to be the last person to vote is necessary to win, but that ups the pressure of lylo up to levels that I argue would cause even you to second guess yourself and possibly throw the game.  Plus if it backfires as long as you kept your case reasonably clean (such as you are doing, not Lenglon, I'll address her in a minute) you'll come out of the lynch clean and with a near bullet proof defense for the next day.  With our only protection gone we have no hope in that scenario.

---

Nightcrafter:
Seeing as your reads are the same as someone who I consider to be suspicious, I have to ask explicitly what your opinion of Leafsnail is.  Please go into detail if you have time to.

I know it's a lot of extra effort I'm asking of you: but could you also take the time to argue against my read on him?

---

Lenglon:

Quote from: Lenglon on June 24, 2013, 09:36:45 pm

Vector seemed more scummy than Leaf at the time, and Leaf wasn't up for lynch.
also, you were rambling on and on about the exact same things over and over, and I didn't want to give you encouragement.

Why?  No seriously why?  Your goal here isn't help me become a better person, your goal is to WIN.  If you felt my suspicions had merit, then you should have pressed Leafsnail, and seen if you could get a better read on him.  This doesn't preclude pressing me over my reads, which would have helped me refine my case to the point where we could have lynched potential scum rather than a null read.  The only reason I can see to keep silent is to keep me distracted in pressing Leaf, and fear that interaction could cause me to start pressing you as well.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

-Sheep's pair analysis-

valid point, I have nothing to add on the matter at this time, but doing want people freaking out if/when I bring this up again later this entire statement is nothing but a waste of space, I shouldn't have to bother saying it at all.

What later?  As far as your tunnel is concerned there is no later where you would potentially bring this up.  The only possibility would be you meaning later today; however, there isn't enough time left in the game for much new information to arise, and you aren't extending.

Quote from: Lenglon on June 25, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 25, 2013, 08:58:54 pm

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Assumption 1 was most of your case on Vector. Vector's reasoning for what to do when Ranger claimed cop didn't match you own. You objected to this, violently. if Assumption 1 is patently nonsense, why did you make a lynch case out of it?

Is that really what you expected us to get out of your long post?  These are the last hours, we don't have time for you to explain your reasoning and logic over multiple posts, be conclusive the first time.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Vector on June 26, 2013, 12:44:27 am

Griffionday, your playstyle is too detailed.  You need to cut the fat and work on keeping your energy up.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 26, 2013, 12:55:33 am

Quote from: Vector on June 26, 2013, 12:44:27 am

Griffionday, your playstyle is too detailed.  You need to cut the fat and work on keeping your energy up.

I'm a bit OC, so I have difficulty identifying what is fat and what is important and will help fellow players see what I see.  Any advice you have for identifying the fat to cut would be highly appreciated.

Not to say that you're wrong, just that I already noticed this and am trying to work on it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Vector on June 26, 2013, 01:05:55 am

Currently operating on nowhere near enough sleep, so no, I'm not going to be able to help.

But everything you write--reread it, and think: "is this actually important right now?  Is this worth fighting over?"  You don't have to refute your enemy's every point, just the important ones.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 26, 2013, 01:08:05 am

Quote from: Vector on June 26, 2013, 01:05:55 am

Currently operating on nowhere near enough sleep, so no, I'm not going to be able to help.

But everything you write--reread it, and think: "is this actually important right now?  Is this worth fighting over?"  You don't have to refute your enemy's every point, just the important ones.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the advice.  Good luck catching up on sleep.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Tiruin on June 26, 2013, 01:09:13 am

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(3) - Leafsnail, nightcrafter27, Griffionday
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) -
• Leafsnail(2) - Lenglon, TheWetSheep
• Not Voting(0) -

Day 3 has begun and will end at June 26, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8 (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130626T21&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+3+End!&csz=1)]

Extension requests: 1
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html)!

---

As you debate on what weapons you had in about two days ago, one of the balls of fire tries to rush in through the window, before being thrown back and dissipating to the winds.

"It's a warding field. Why would it be placed so far up here?"
"Impossible."
"So it's not a stilett- wait, what are we looking at here?"
"Somebody warded the window from being traversed by scryers or divination casters. Except for..Dariush. I really believe he doesn't mind, or doesn't care."
"Make your choices. You are in grave danger."
"_{As if we didn't have the whole night to think about that.}"
"_{Vector's OK, don't worry about it.}"
"_{I meant us!}"

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 26, 2013, 07:57:11 am

Leafsnail
Oppose Extend

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Griffionday on June 26, 2013, 08:10:04 am

I may not be around tonight until far too late, so let me say thank you all for the game, sorry I played so horribly in the middle there and allowed the game to essentially die.

---

Lenglon:

Our plays will be dissected soon I'm sure, but before they are let me say: you were amazing, we should totally do this again sometime.

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
Post by: Tiruin on June 26, 2013, 08:28:05 am

"Broadswords?"
"Eh, no."
"Very well, do you have any arming swords? "
"No."
"_{This isn't going anywhere! We've no time!}"
"_{We can't just go! That's leaving behind people we know, despite being jerks!}"
"Crossbows?"
"No."
"Seaxes?"
"No."
"_{Just give the word and I'm calling our friend Lenglon, please!}"
"_{The timer's running out, and I still stand by what I said at the start of all this! It's a horrible way to try to find the murderer. I'm still wondering who would design something so horrible!}"
"_{Then...It all makes sense now.}"
"What does?"
"_{Vector's words. Her last words. Her hints at the end of the first day? She was onto something. And now it's all coming into place.}"
"Well..spit it out! We don't even have names for our weapons and I've tried everything the armory has. Even basic equipment!"

It was only then when Griffionday noticed that his words were being heard by the general audience and not his companion, Lenglon.

"Give us our knives, sire. The condemned wish to clear their names."
"Very well."
"Hold on there, what are you doing?"
"Removing the blood from our knives."
"You-you're the killer?"
"Do you think I would kill someone with a pie-cutter? This is what they accused Vector here for, and she's gone. Next, they take out persons of importance with us-"
"This doesn't make any sense!"
"The talk of wards. The spider. Stationing us in a place filled with mirrors that we can't see the exact time of day, or even if it is night outside? The White King being a spirit of morality while it in itself can sense who is guilty or not?

"Don't you get it? We're being waylaid!"

Leafsnail stares for a few moments before taking up his knife, and cutting a small nick on his wrist. It bleeds for only moments before a clot is formed, but just enough to color his forearm in red.

"Then you and him are their targets."
"...What?"
"It all makes sense, as you say. You somehow finding out the right words in the Sunwell? Finding the answer to the solution before anyone else has? Knowing the words of the tradewind magi? Even that is next to impossible. Lenglon, Griffionday, whatever you're both onto, I believe you're hiding something from us. Show your evidence."

Tension. Pressure. Fear.

How did he know? How did he guess? Was this grasping at the wind, or just paranoia?

"H-how did-"
"Shh- What evidence are you talking about?"
"I had my suspicions. There were markings of wax along the corridors during the first night. There were markings along the hallways on the second, and both were tracked to your general locations. Also, the reasoning like I said earlier; do note that I heard all of your whispering over there. It's not like I'm just three feet away, ma'am and sir."
"Why didn't you say it in the first place? We are hiding something-"
"Lenglon!"
"I don't want to lie any longer. We have the royal message. But you must listen to-"

Leafsnail nods and gestures around; nightcrafter27 moves to close the door as TheWetSheep approaches the window and begins speaking in hushed tones. Every spirit but the fluffed one move to the lower area.

"-us, we aren't the killers and there was another person at-"
"I know."
"-...What."
"I know you aren't the killers."

...The Mafia are Victorious.

---

---

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(3) - Leafsnail, nightcrafter27, Griffionday
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) -
• Leafsnail(2) - Lenglon, TheWetSheep
• Not Voting(0) -

Day 3 has ended (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130626T21&p0=145&fg1=80c2da&fg2=ff605a&msg=Day+3+End!&csz=1)

Extension requests: -1
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

---

Leafsnail has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Town IC!

Quote

You are the Captain of the Guard. A man built on the precepts of law, order, and gentlemanly kindness, you've always been known as a man of power. Power both in the field of war, and in the field of lore--in the war of words, as you'd like to call it yourself.

No able force in the land could contend with the people under your hand and guidance, as no straight path in the lands could ever assault the Aerie due to its geographical location. Your rank in the bastion, however, proves much more than any title could. A famous and honorable man; being a suspect drew much shock and awe in the eyes of the people, and the thin line of reputation now lies in danger.

Yet it doesn't matter until the task is finished. The people before you lack the subtle art of discussion, most of whom rely on weapons rather than the ever-natural weapon of the human race--the mind, and their communication. Though you have been an influential individual in the presence of nobility for most of your life, your only weapons here are your tongue and your thoughts.

Your duty calls, and you must answer once more.


((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

((You are an IC!))

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 27, 2013, 09:54:52 pm

Uh, fuck everything?

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 09:59:27 pm

Shinigami_King:
Maybe you'll learn not to White-Knight as hard as you can right when you get in a game next time.

Everyone else.  Any advice on my part?

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 27, 2013, 10:12:44 pm

Good job Griffionday. I hate you.

Quote from: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 09:59:27 pm

Shinigami_King:
Maybe you'll learn not to White-Knight as hard as you can right when you get in a game next time.

Everyone else.  Any advice on my part?

Meh, I pretty much did the same thing with Leafsnail. It must be a growing pain or something. Overall, I think you did very well, Pup.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 10:13:25 pm

My main pieces of advice right now would be to not make terrible votes on townies at lylo if you are town.  And to not lynch cops day one.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 10:57:31 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 09:59:27 pm

Everyone else.  Any advice on my part?

You started strong, you seemed to start lurking day two which was a bit disappointing as I felt you were one of the townies who was actually a threat to our team and brought down the average town game by a lot.  Your attention to detail early in the game was downright scary, as was your willingness to hunt every opportunity given regardless of your reads.  Your experiment day one were you buddied me was the second scariest point of the game, short of me saying that I was scum.

Seriously; I hope I'm on the same side as you next game.

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 27, 2013, 10:12:44 pm

Good job Griffionday. I hate you.

Thanks. :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 27, 2013, 10:58:58 pm

. . .

So I did catch you.  Dammit.  Next time you won't be able to hide behind the smokescreen of everyone else's everything.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2013, 11:00:38 pm

Should've posted yesterday; couldn't post yesterday.

Darn am I a silly mod.

Hold up everyone.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 11:08:57 pm

I'm still more than a little shocked that I didn't get instantly jumped by everyone and summarily policy lynched.  I think it helped that Dem ended up being the first to attack me on that, and his attacks were fairly easy to counter-push.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 27, 2013, 11:12:02 pm

See, usually people go "Ugh, Vector, stop jumping on us for shit like that!  You can't lynch me because I sound nervous!  You're wrong!"  And sometimes they're town, and sometimes they're scum.

Just... Jesus Christ, Shinigami_King.  I can handle a lot, but "you annoy me so I'm going to kill you" really... hits a lot of very Vector-specific buttons.  In a non-BM I probably would have completely blown my temper.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Lenglon on June 27, 2013, 11:14:13 pm

eh, I'm quite frankly amazed that I never got lynched. I thought I looked scummy every single day... pretty much with every single thing I did.

oh, and here's the link to the scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z4X9WMcaihhLD)

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2013, 11:17:15 pm

Welp. Proves how useless I am. Can't even post faster :/

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: zombie urist on June 27, 2013, 11:23:28 pm

You can be the first to post deadchat.  :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 27, 2013, 11:29:31 pm

No (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/n46Mh2e4yhJQK).

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 11:30:57 pm

Lenglon: well, you kinda were...

Tiruin: You were awesome, your flavor was beautiful and kept coming despite extension after extension.  Thank you so much for GMing!

ZU: Seriously? No dead-chat for me to look over for evaluation? What sadness.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2013, 11:34:31 pm

And I'm beaten to deadchat too XD

Argh, well. I'll just fish out those roles then, and write the ending.

Still, TO THOSE REPLACEMENTS. Please make SURE you can replace in before.....

Lacking any reply via mail or post altogether and dropping off the map. That really hit me.  :-\

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2013, 11:45:14 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 10:13:25 pm

And to not lynch cops day one.

It's practically a BM tradition at this point.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Lenglon on June 28, 2013, 12:15:40 am

I still find it kinda hilarious that we managed to lynch the cop day 1, followed by lynching both ICs days 2 and 3.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 12:26:06 am

Not bad for an second and third game.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 12:30:16 am

Nothing to see here!  :D

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 28, 2013, 12:30:47 am

you can edit now

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 28, 2013, 02:00:09 am

Quote from: Vector on June 28, 2013, 12:30:47 am

you can edit now

It's been so long...

But seriously, why wasn't I lynched day 2? Everybody thought I was the scum partner. I checked.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 03:17:15 am

Hey, GD.
(http://i.imgur.com/nTNdNDS.png)
What you did was about the lowest thing one could do in a BM. Seeing scum win so cheaply may very well turn several of the townies from the mafia. I really didn't expect you to end your (and Lenglon's) fairly stellar play on such a note. :-/

Also, I had an achievement drawn up for managing to lynch both ICs. BUT YOU WON'T GET IT. May this forever chew on your conscience.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Lenglon on June 28, 2013, 04:23:01 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 28, 2013, 02:00:09 am

But seriously, why wasn't I lynched day 2? Everybody thought I was the scum partner. I checked.

I wanted an IC lynch is why.

Quote from: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 03:17:15 am

Also, I had an achievement drawn up for managing to lynch both ICs. BUT YOU WON'T GET IT. May this forever chew on your conscience.

awww, but I wanted it so much too...

I mean comon, I got the one townie vote I needed for a second IC mislynch. If only...

ah, well. so be it.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: griffinpup on June 28, 2013, 07:03:32 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 10:57:31 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 09:59:27 pm

Everyone else.  Any advice on my part?

You started strong, you seemed to start lurking day two which was a bit disappointing as I felt you were one of the townies who was actually a threat to our team and brought down the average town game by a lot.  Your attention to detail early in the game was downright scary, as was your willingness to hunt every opportunity given regardless of your reads.  Your experiment day one were you buddied me was the second scariest point of the game, short of me saying that I was scum.

I am frustrated that I didn't have more time during day two.  Ah well, good game.  On to a rematch?

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on June 28, 2013, 07:18:08 am

I don't know why you didn't :/

Anyway, flavor up and I'm editing in the day end.

Quote from: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 03:17:15 am

Also, I had an achievement drawn up for managing to lynch both ICs. BUT YOU WON'T GET IT. May this forever chew on your conscience.

It would've been a lot better if the game went the normal way. Like Lenglon gone, and then Griffion vs The World. :P

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2013, 08:05:48 am

Seriously don't lynch anyone who claims cop day one unless there are 3 people claiming cop (in that case town has won and scum are stupid)

Title: Re: BM XLI: Day 2, A Silent Requiem
Post by: Shakerag on June 28, 2013, 09:42:46 am

Quote from: Vector on June 14, 2013, 04:18:18 am

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the scumteam.  It's TheWetSheep and Nightcrafter.

I was giggling so hard.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 28, 2013, 10:15:25 am

Yay! I was on both ICs' mislynches!  :-\

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 10:45:05 am

Quote from: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 03:17:15 am

Hey, GD.

What you did was about the lowest thing one could do in a BM. Seeing scum win so cheaply may very well turn several of the townies from the mafia. I really didn't expect you to end your (and Lenglon's) fairly stellar play on such a note. :-/

Also, I had an achievement drawn up for managing to lynch both ICs. BUT YOU WON'T GET IT. May this forever chew on your conscience.

Noted.  I'll play more above board next time.  You mention that this was about the lowest thing to do in a BM, should I assume it's not acceptable elsewhere either?

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2013, 10:59:18 am

Under regular rulesets Griffionday's vote would've ended the day anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 11:58:50 am

Quote from: nightcrafter27 on June 28, 2013, 02:00:09 am

Quote from: Vector on June 28, 2013, 12:30:47 am

you can edit now

It's been so long...

But seriously, why wasn't I lynched day 2? Everybody thought I was the scum partner. I checked.

Well, for what it's worth the fact that you were able to explain your predecessors actions in a fashion that was pretty much what I was thinking he must have done to be town indicated to me that you would be able to defend yourself, hence why I backed off.

I kept thinking that Leafsnail et. al. were just using you as a convenient person to say "look: this person is my placeholder scum to keep the scum team from knowing that I'm watching them" rather than actually having a scum read on you, but I'm paranoid so...

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Toaster on June 28, 2013, 12:06:38 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 11:58:50 am

I kept thinking that Leafsnail et. al. were just using you as a convenient person to say "look: this person is my placeholder scum to keep the scum team from knowing that I'm watching them" rather than actually having a scum read on you, but I'm paranoid so...

I don't recall this ever being done successfully... or at all, really.  I could only see someone like Solifuge doing that trick.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 12:08:37 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 28, 2013, 10:59:18 am

Under regular rulesets Griffionday's vote would've ended the day anyway.

Hammers are not regular rulesets. They are byproducts of the same sick mind that decided that nightstarts and jesters are a good idea.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: lordnincompoop on June 28, 2013, 02:35:32 pm

Quote from: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 12:08:37 pm

Hammers are not regular rulesets. They are byproducts of the same sick mind that decided that nightstarts and jesters are a good idea.

Hey! N0 is actually good for a number of reasons: It allows scum teams to coordinate before beginning the game, it allows players of all factions to read their role PMs and think about what to do, and it can power up roles with night actions if they need it but doesn't necessarily need to affect others.

The only truly controversial aspect is the N0 nightkill, which can prevent one player from ever participating. It, however, does not necessarily need to be included in a game, nor do very swingy roles need to be afforded the ability to action N0.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Vector on June 28, 2013, 07:23:46 pm

Quote from: Toaster on June 28, 2013, 12:06:38 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 11:58:50 am

I kept thinking that Leafsnail et. al. were just using you as a convenient person to say "look: this person is my placeholder scum to keep the scum team from knowing that I'm watching them" rather than actually having a scum read on you, but I'm paranoid so...

I don't recall this ever being done successfully... or at all, really.  I could only see someone like Solifuge doing that trick.

Eh, I've done it before.  Usually it's because I'm attacking someone, figure out someone else is scum, and then want to watch them a little to see if they keep doing the thing that's tipping me off (if they're using a particular technique I recognize).

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Leafsnail on June 30, 2013, 12:21:03 pm

Quote from: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 12:08:37 pm

Hammers are not regular rulesets. They are byproducts of the same sick mind that decided that nightstarts and jesters are a good idea.

That isn't true at all.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 01:29:28 am

This should have gone up a few posts ago. Full error on my part for not letting that happen.

...Well, this is it, anyway.

Scumchat! (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z4X9WMcaihhLD)

Deadchat! (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/n46Mh2e4yhJQK)

Spoiler: Cast of XLI (click to show/hide)

Mafia

Quote from: Mafia Role Cop; Griffionday!

You are a Hippogriff Tamer, a young yet hardworking man entrusted in keeping these steeds and creatures of legend under careful care and watch. You have worked at the Aerie for longer than you could remember, and straight from a trusted line of descendants in your profession that you know every nook and crack in the area--save for the lands around it.

Your conscience dictates that you aren't the killer, and it is quite obvious due to the lack of blood on your hands, knives, daggers, short sword or other sharp instruments. Due to this outlook, you've learned much from introspective analysis and body language than most. Your abilities to sense a person's mannerisms, as far as their unique gestures that make them unique would serve well in proving your...'innocence.'

However, innocence travels as far as people perceive it to be. You and your partner have the Royal Missive, and without doubt, if this was taken into wrong hands--or wronger hands than yours; doom will befall the lands and a civil war is a forseeable future for everyone. If only you could get out from this place and warn the Prince...or Princess, whoever was the King's heir, then perhaps there is hope yet.

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Every Night you can choose to Inspect any individual to discover their Role {which will read: Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper...}. You cannot inspect yourself. You may speak with your allies in the scumchat: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z4X9WMcaihhLD

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

Quote from: Vanilla Mafioso; Lenglon!

You are an Architect, a young and knowledgeable woman entrusted with the making of the Aerie and all its supporting works and deeds. Built to withstand winds at speeds of over any speed the fastest eagle can travel, and fortified on the precipice of one of the largest cliffs in the known world, you know that this bastion is impenetrable from land, air or sea. You have worked at the Aerie for longer than you could remember, and straight from a trusted line of descendants in your profession that you know every nook and crack in the area--save for the lands around it.

Your conscience dictates that you aren't the killer, and it is quite obvious due to the lack of blood on your hands, knives, daggers, and pencil or any other sharp instrument for that matter. Due to this outlook, you've learned much from introspective analysis and body language than most. Your abilities to sense a person's mannerisms, as far as their unique gestures that make them unique would serve well in proving your...'innocence.'

However, innocence travels as far as people perceive it to be. You and your partner have the Royal Missive, firstly taken by you as you took a stroll down one of the many hallways and then hearing a scream, a squelch, and a thud. The next thing? You see a prone body and a scroll along with its sheath right at your feet as you recognize the Royal Messenger being attacked by...someone. Luckily, the guards of the Aerie are no joke and worth their pay--they arrived on scene just seconds after, leaving you to bolt for your life along with whatever was thrown at your feet.

The missive contains something worse. Something you can tell, cost the life of the man holding it. And they said he was still around.

Worse yet, inside the missive (you were curious) lay details of a coup--nobody in the area would believe this, and your partner didn't until you showed him the evidence first hand. It was either death, or escape. There was no persuasion here.

If only you could get out from this place and warn the Prince...or Princess, whoever was the King's heir, then perhaps there is hope yet.

((You are of the Mafia Faction! Being a Mafioso, you have no other abilities but the shared Nightkill of your faction during the Night. It is up to you or your buddy on who to use it.You may scheme and discuss with your allies in the scumchat: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z4X9WMcaihhLD

You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!))

Quote from: Scum IC; Toaster!

You are a...Conscience. Yes. Yes. That is what you are. A disembodied conscience. A label of thought for mortal sentient minds to bear. Something of which to remind them what is morally good from bad, ethically right from wrong.

Yes.

Muchly as you'd want, you've your own sentience now due to how thoughts in the human mind work. A sentience that precedes any diplomatic mind that you can function on all fields of literary thought and word--something of which those who you attach yourself to would benefit from.

Yes indeed.

A voice in the void, a thought in the expanse. How glorious a day it is to be, a mind in the frolics of thinking trivialities. You are their sword and their guide, their teacher and their prosecutor.

You are Toaster.

((You volunteered to be the Scum IC!))

You may harass and nag your woeful victims in the scumchat: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z4X9WMcaihhLD

---

Town and other Factions!

Quote from: Town Cop; RangerCado

You are a Scout Ranger. A man of keen senses and possessing the ability to understand the language of birds and beasts. Part of the Ithilien Rangers, known forth as great trackers and hardy warriors—defending their respective areas from evil forces, you have come to the Aerie on a personal quest; sent by the King himself on a deed most peril, even you haven't known the true specifics of the matter other than to meet at the location given, at the time wherein a specific celestial body (which is the Sun) is at a certain position in the sky.

A load of trouble that came to be.

Mayhap, that is life. A life you've grown accustomed to. While you are a man of the law, there is little in the way of using weaponry and underhand methods in clearing the goal at hand--finding the killer or proving people innocent. You can do both, fortunately. Your skills in detecting, tracking and examining little details of a person as well as an animal would serve as a good auxiliary tool, and would speak much of your upbringing.

Somehow, you still wonder why the local Merchant guilds prefer not to trade at all with your folk, making paltry excuses on buying, selling or...'haggling'. Glad to see there are no merchants around!

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Inspect any individual to discover their alignment {which will read: Town or Mafia}. You cannot inspect yourself.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote from: Jailkeeper; griffinpup

You are a Gryphon Handler. A man of stern build and sterner principle, a handler's duty lies in the correct application of force, knowledge, word and calm when need me. Ever since birth, you've found yourself with a charisma which few others could contend with--even the animals felt your gift, and embraced your presence. You, being the man you are, received them in turn; the use of your skills and their application would prove worthwhile in the trials of the days coming.

Who the killer may be, and based from what you've seen and heard, you've made a personal promise to stop such a tragedy from happening again. While your life has been always on the lower rung of the noble ladder of society (in terms of work, you're quite a good man), you know a few tricks up your sleeve which even the guardians of the Aerie would pay to know. While you aren't as skilled as the Wardens of the bastion, nor as tactful as the inquisitorial forces, you're the best they have at the moment.

A suspect under grounds of death, and yet, a tool for the safekeeping of life.

((You are of the Town Faction! Every Night you can choose to Jail any individual, except yourself. This saves the target if the same target was singled out for death during the Night but also blocks the target from acting. This does not stop any inspects from working on the target, however.

You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote from: Vanilla Town; Demdemeh // nightcrafter27

You are a Longbowman. A man of young age, and keen eyesight--you work as part of the taskforce of the Aerie in keeping the area safe from foreign hands and feet as well as providing a security measure if in case anything goes wrong with the transports in the area.

You have always been known to be loyal to the King and to his vassals, now having the power to speak your own in their presence. However, due to recent events, your only weapon now would be your tongue and none more.

((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote from: Vanilla Town; Shinigami_King // TheWetSheep

You are a Spirit Mage. A man able to convey the thoughts of the elements around you into thought and majesty, your profession has been of much use to the people of the Aerie--though mostly always mistaken by foreign passerby as a speaker of the dead, or a wielder of magic, you pride yourself as an artisan rather than a user of force.

Granted, you had to carry a darned knife with you just for that one masterpiece of woodwork you were planning to give one of the Aeromancers for her graduation ceremony. Now, due to recent events, your only weapon would be your tongue and your discerning attitude.

((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote from: Vanilla Town; Cheesecake // birdy51

You are an Ambassador. A man of virtue and good intention, your purpose at the Aerie lay in the communication with other people, and the protection of your own under the standing of racial differences as well as cultural, traiditonal, literal and menial differences. One of the many Ambassadors residing in the area, your profession speaks much of your knowledge regarding the workings throughout the realm.

Sadly, none of your position or your identity would save against a crime of no legal evidence other than the fact that everyone was carrying a knife near the scene. Apparently, the inspecting guards didn't believe a word you said about carrying knives 'because it is in my culture' and all--they couldn't understand the benefits of always carrying an edged weapon around just for its heavy variance in the field of practical usage.

Well, as life usually goes, it must be all a misunderstanding. Due to recent events, you lack any weapon short of your tongue in persuasion. Your skill in the local dialect and reasoning also leads to a disadvantage however, and your opinions would be shifting as the tides and wind of the day as you listen on with the people.


((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

Quote from: Town IC; Vector

You are an Aeromancer. A teacher, a linguist, a scholar, a mathematician, a visionary, and an idealist are among most other things you've accomplished. Holding a position of renown among the schools of magic, an Aeromancer's duty is to be able to manipulate the very fabrics and laws of air and aerodynamics to their own thoughts and words. The latter notion, you've perfected without the prior use of magic, something which gives credence to your position.

Granted, you had to carry a knife at the time of that event...something which you would've cut a pie gifted to you--and something which the inspecting guards didn't believe as being not the killing weapon 'because it smelt of pie.' Figures.

Despite the usual minor trivialities of the day, your only weapon now would be your tongue and your wisdom in the war of words.

((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

((You are an IC!))

Quote from: Town IC; Captain Ford // Leafsnail

You are the Captain of the Guard. A man built on the precepts of law, order, and gentlemanly kindness, you've always been known as a man of power. Power both in the field of war, and in the field of lore--in the war of words, as you'd like to call it yourself.

No able force in the land could contend with the people under your hand and guidance, as no straight path in the lands could ever assault the Aerie due to its geographical location. Your rank in the bastion, however, proves much more than any title could. A famous and honorable man; being a suspect drew much shock and awe in the eyes of the people, and the thin line of reputation now lies in danger.

Yet it doesn't matter until the task is finished. The people before you lack the subtle art of discussion, most of whom rely on weapons rather than the ever-natural weapon of the human race--the mind, and their communication. Though you have been an influential individual in the presence of nobility for most of your life, your only weapons here are your tongue and your thoughts.

Your duty calls, and you must answer once more.


((You are of the Town Faction! You cannot act at Night, being a Vanilla//Normal Townie. You win when the MAFIA are wholly eliminated, regardless of your survival UNLESS the number of MAFIA is equal to, or more than, TOWN players.))

((You are an IC!))

Spoiler: Night Actions + flavor (click to show/hide)

Day 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4279718;topicseen#msg4279718)

@ Lenglon/Griffionday. Quote "I can't believe this." "Don't fret Griffion. The letter is with me, and the spirit hasn't gotten a whiff of our intent." "No, I just can't believe that..this happened. Why us, of all people. And how could the perimeter be breached by an assassin, if what you're saying is true?" "I can't either, but I doubt people will believe our story like this. You see, a mind is like a building, it is built on preconceptions of ideas. They think this place is safe. But it's not." "What'll we do? Escape? The Keeper has us on a short leash--there's little we can do." "We can do little, but we've to work with what we have. Now while I've no idea of how the tunnel system on this floor goes, I can assure you that we can save people just as much as I guess they want to save each other." "Really, how?" Lenglon paced around the room. "We're separated into pairs of two per room. The Keeper thinks that we're safe as there is one killer. Whoever the doctor was, says there may be multiple killers. I believe that if we can lure one of the people in the right area, we can activate a trapdoor which would send them home free!" "You mean the dungeon?" Griffion replies. "The one with a blocked entrance? How will that save them?" "The guard, though security has been compromised, are vigilant and know their professions. They will know people will be down there, and I'm still quite sure that I've renovated the area a few weeks ago. No pestilence or any of the worries in the cities." "Right, but still. griffinpup doesn't look right. His mannerisms, gestures..even the air about him. I don't like it." "So do we have a killer tonight?" "No, he's paired with one of the mages. However I'm still sure he has his tricks up there." "Malevolent or not?" "He's a Griffon Handler, much like me. Remember the Griffon roosts?" "Locked tight and guarded with trained personnel." "That one event back in the summer of the past year?" "Deadbolt lock destroyed by one of the handlers to save a young griffin, yes. Why are you asking me all this?" "If the reputation of the Handlers are anything to follow, then he's quite a target of interest, don't you agree?" "Right. As for our next target? I'm thinking one of the more-...regal people." "The Ambassador?" "How'd you know that?" "He left his pin and seal on the table. Don't worry, he has extras." "So I'll trap the door he's in, and put the pin as a piece of evidence?" "That's the plan." "Right...goodnight, I guess?" The two of you nod to each other, and head off to bed. Sleep evades you, though, and only until the candlelight fades that you both see each other still awake, under the white moonlight streaming from the window. "You know, I've always wondered how the outside world feels. I've been cloistered here for too long, taking care of everything that I sometimes forget what keeps me going in the first place." "Mmm?" "Look outside." The vast expanse of blue and shaded black come into view. Forests, plains, cliffs and open seascape occupy the realm after the window. Nature in all it's serene beauty, lit by the white moon hanging above. "Freedom." "Can't you just get one of the hippogriffs to get us out?" "That's it. It's a perfect solution, but I just can't get one of the whistles. Senior staff hold them close, and I'm not senior enough to be trusted with those." "Whistles to summon the steed you take care of, huh? Well, we'll take care of that when it comes. For now, just let this thing rest. We've got a whole day tomorrow. Did you bolt our door?" "Yes." ... "Hey Griffion? You awake?" "Yes?" "Thanks." "Hah, no problem. I'm here for you. We'll make it out together, don't you worry. The kingdom needs us." "Pretty much like the fairy tales you had when you were young. Tales of tragedy and glory. I only wish we weren't the ones to face it." "My dear, things like these will come and go, and many will wish they hadn't been there to witness it. What matters is what we'll get to do with the time we have." "...Goodnight Griff." "Goodnight there." And the night was peaceful. Not even the squeak of a mouse was heard.

@ griffinpup Quote Recent events foretell a scene of grisly news. What has happened, can and will happen again. The world is doo- "Thats enough I'm reading out of these stories." you say, browsing through the personal library in your room. While the rest may be paired to rooms and all, you've noticed many other spare rooms which theoretically match the same structuring and orientation of your own--perhaps this was not just a coincidence? "This is just enough." The book falls to the ground in a clatter as you take the nearby torch from its position. You have a plan to enact, and a person to save. If the correct lighting and timing, along with entry is taken, then redirecting a person's movements to a different room would be as easy as wrangling a lion. "Not tonight. Not again." Memories of your first lessons as a Griffon handler enter your mind as you go about your plan, somewhat surprised that nobody else interrupts you, but glad to finally see it finished after moments work. Footsteps can be heard echoing up to your location, and that is when you escape the scene, satisfied that Vector would at least be put in safe hands. "Just enough." With all work done, you head back to your room; satisfied, ready to welcome the sleep that has so long evaded you. @birdy51 Quote Sleep. Something which you've been longing for in days. Recent events as well as the sudden spike of couriers from the realm are only a few of the worries and obligations you attend to. As of note, complaints of irrational civility and assault on immigrants are only bits of what come to your ears; none of it was like what you've to put up with now. And by your lucky dice, you've forgotten your pin. No good ambassador leaves his or her pin out, as its their signifying mark of rank and mantle. Granted, there are only two places you've visited recently and you're very sure it isn't in the chamber pots. As you head into the Main Hall, you notice the absence of life. The presence of the chessboard still sends shivers up your spine as you check their features--only White pieces remain, with all the opposing force still in their rubble state. Quite human-like, and eerily realistic; easy to be mistaken for living, sentient beings from a short distance. Ah, but there is your prize. Your pin and house seal. None would forget this matter if you had accidentally left it behind--dishonor to you, your family and your house if otherwise! While you do feel something is not right with the area, you shrug it off and mark the blame on the chess pieces. Especially the rooks. *Tap* *Tap* You reach for your belongings, and just before your hand clasps around the items, the floor falls beneath you followed by the familiar sound of mechanisms working their masterful art. The traps of the Aerie are endless in design, and you've fallen for the same one which Cado has. The old pitfall trap. You have fallen. (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/n46Mh2e4yhJQK) Your last thought before succumbing to gravity are about your shoes. These don't do well with friction.

Day 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4330872#msg4330872)

@Lenglon/Griffionday Quote "...She's gone." "N-no. It can't be-ahh..." The two of you find each other solely by your voices, and realize that everyone else is still knocked unconscious by the power of the blow. Your only light source comes from what seems to be a fluffy torch suspended midair, like a chandelier without a chain. "My leg. It hurts." "It's badly bruised, but not broken. Glad to see we're all here. Whatever that thing was, isn't following us now." "I'd not want to doubt Vector's power, but she's still not here." "Hm, alright Mr. Tamer. Tell me one thing, why do you think magic is not permitted to be used inside the upper section of the Aerie?" "Because of the wards in place, obviously. Anyone who does cast magic, unless it is outside w-" "Yes?" "Will be instantaneously shifted to the dungeon to await sentence for violation against the element of air." "Correct. Now, I believe we should do our part before everyone wakes up. Vector is safe, that's a good thing. The other thing I'd like to show you, is this." He holds up a whistle shaped in the form of a short flute as well as a winged key. "If it all comes to plan, then we're taking off in style." "Then this leaves only one thing. Protect those we know would still be a threat. Err, no offense to the rest." "Why can't you just shove all of them into the trapdoor anyway?" "It's a chute, and the mechanism of the drop only works safely for one person. The 132nd order of the King states protection using magic, so every trapdoor only works once. Beats thieves anytime." "Right. Err." "What?" "Who're we saving?" "griffinpup, of course." "Oh. Right. You go do that, I'll just sit here. Not moaning in pain." And then griffinpup was sent free. "Now to bring all of you into the hall. We can't stay out like this. Have to check what she gave me in a safe area." "Goodluck carrying me then." @griffinpup Quote Another night, another target. However, you've encountered a moral dilemma; you are unconscious! You feel someone dragging you by the ankle, and feel your head hit some kind of hard rock as your body turns around that axis. It hurts. And then you fall. The feeling of gravity, pulling you down. It feels like forever until you hit something solid, and awaken. (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/n46Mh2e4yhJQK) Identify items? [Y/N]

@Vector Quote 'What is the first thing to do when in danger?' Your instructor's voice echoes in your mind as you hear his students' footsteps scurry off into the distance. Technically, everyone who has passed through the Aerie's doors are his students, but with one exact and current difference. You are now their teacher, and you will lead by example despite all their forthcomings. You are their guide. You are their shield, their light, their key. You are their sword. You take a swift breath, and exhale sharply, calming yourself for the battle ahead. The spider looms into view and orients itself towards you, with several beady eyes forming on where its 'head' should be. "Not today, you abhorrent spinner." you say, using the words as a guise before you prepare one of your customary formulae, calculating how strong and from what origin you are going to summon wield your powers from. Yet it doesn't respond. Quite rude for an amalgam of dark magic. Yet you can sense fear in the air. Not your own and...not the creature's. You flick your fingers, and a tiny spark appears in the air, illuminating the area with pure light and the lack of heat, and see the spider for what it truly is. An emaciated creature: its exoskeleton being the only tangible parts available, and its 'fleshy' parts formed from what seems to be a mix of nebulous darkness and grayish, elriche bands. A part of you wishes that it would bend over and die easily so you can return to the rest. It raises its forelegs and shoots a glob of the black substance at you before charging. You quickly deflect the projectile, seeing its acidic properties as it burns the stony corridor and fills it with acrid odors. There is no way you're fighting this thing in an enclosed space. It skids to a stop as you dash in its direction, aiming to catch you with its body. You utter the first sequence of your spell, and manage to evade it entirely with a force-propelled leap. It doesn't let up as you run towards the Sunwell. It is determined to chase you down until you are too tired to run or you fight. In either case, death is one thing you don't want happening. But then a thought comes to mind. The tablet. The light. Perhaps if you could just subvert its energy and... "Hey four legs! Can't catch me!" Your footsteps fill the hall with their frantic rhythm, but this brings peace as you are sure that no other pair can be heard. With the thought of your students safe, you push onwards, determined to see this through either way. Reaching the door, you quickly utter another phrase and hear them swiftly close in. The pit-pat of spindly legs across the walls tell you that your foe has entered the room. Perfect. You complete the phrase, and turn to see the doors slam shut with a tortured groan of metal. The sunwell is lit only by the torches around you. The whole scene seems like one of the tragic plays you've seen in your childhood, but with you being the hero. Another flick of the fingers put the room into full light--whatever the Keeper said about the room's restrictions would be damned anyway if you died. The spider is nowhere to be seen, something you use to rethink your strategy. You back away slowly towards the still-active tablet, taking a glance to see multiple figures in the griffon roosts, and shudder to think what the poor beasts may be experiencing at their hands. A glint in the corner of your eye. Expected. Attacked. You release the remainder of your spell in a barrage of taunts and swears, pouring your stress onto the creature, knowing that this in itself makes up half of the battle as the figure comes into view. It dodges, weaves and drops. Wounded by the blows, evident by the signs of decay and deterioration in its body. Fatigue touches you, and you remember that though magi wield powers which no mundane man would ever dream to have, it comes at a cost. Despite that, you grin and continue your taunting, positioning yourself between it and the tablet. "If only you could see me now, Professor. I may join you one day. Over tea, perhaps." The creature twitches, and rights itself without any difficulty. You are sure this will be the moment of truth. Death, or life. It charges one final time at you, and you leap. You leap into a roll perpendicular to its strike, and manage to evade it by inches as it smashes right into the tablet. A faint humming sound is heard, growing louder and louder by the moment. You turn to see the spider getting absorbed into the scrying tool, and its mystic energies reaching an imbalance. "...This just isn't my day." With no other alternative, you resort to utilizing all your pent up energy for one last spell. A spell that many magi fail to perfect, despite it being the most simple and basic of spells in the curriculum. Sort of an addition equation that most fail due to its simplicity. The Aegis. You kneel and cross your arms, bowing your head as a penitent man does, and begin focusing your thoughts on one thing that matters most to you. Who you should protect. Who you deem your reason for continued existence despite any harm or evil around you. Friends. Family. Loved ones. ...People. You close your eyes as you feel the warmth of the shield emanating from you, and the light blankets your vision from the outside world. You are at peace (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/n46Mh2e4yhJQK). Whether alive or dead, nothing bothers you anymore. Until familiar voices ring in your mind..

Spoiler: Night Action - tl;dr. (click to show/hide)

Night 1
griffinpup - Jail Vector
Griffionday - Inspect griffinpup
Lenglon - NK birdy51

Night 2
griffinpup - No action received//PM not received.
Griffionday - Chose to take no action.
Lenglon - NK griffinpup

---

Continued... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4350295#msg4350295)

"The hardest part is knowing you could have done better, that you could have tried a little bit harder."

"So you knew?"
"Knew what?"
"That we weren't the killers of course!"
"I knew only as much as you did."

Silence. You can smell the faintest traces of smoke in the air.

"This was a disaster right near the start. Too much tension. Too much stress. Paranoia. We've all cared too much about living as ourselves and not living for ourselves."
"But the sha-"
"They will come."
The Captain of the Guard takes a deep breath before continuing.
"Too much tension, like I said. We oft forget in these times that any kind of act or ploy starts in communication. You can win in silence, but not before seeing what the opponent does."
"Alright, excuse me for interrupting this philosophical state, but we're in a crisis. Remember what Vector did?"
"And we'll always be in a crisis until we get our heads right. I want to live. You want to live. But we can't achieve that together. Everyone has made bad decisions; none of them have any hold unless you let them.

"We must learn to trust each other. No man, ever, under my command has had the gall to lie and shame without feeling a tinge of guilt. Miscommunication is the best he can achieve, and yet that is sometimes all he needs for a scheme to come to fruition.

"I want you to head to the aviary, use the key Vector has given you, and get out. Take the Architect with you. She's the only one who would understand how to get everyone free. We will hold as long as we can."
"No you can't! I know these speeches, and it always ends on a sour note."
"It would have either way. We've played into their hands. More to due mistake than incompetence."

They're here.

From the hatchway marking one of the entrances towards the Main Hall come voices shouting in an angry, indecipherable manner, followed by the sounds of a breaching attempt.

"I said go! Everyone, to me. We'll buy them time."
"And I shall lend mine."
"This isn't right.."
"Stop thinking about morality. We'll be alright."
"Too late!"

The hatchway breaks down, and a familiar face appears along with a group of significant others.

"Hi there, I believe we're a bit early?"
"Vector?! You're alive?"
"Yes, hi to you too Leafsnail. I'll keep this brief. The Keeper was held under threat of oath to keep you safe, did her job. Is now currently handling the defense of the lower levels. Though sloppy protocol."
"We thought you died! I-I've seen it. I've been tracking all senior staff lifesigns and yours was the only one out."
"Yes, I've been told that as well. I chose to ignore it and continue living. We've still got a job to do and all, and that's to ensure these newbies know how we fight."
"We've our perimeter compromised and you still want us to fight?"
"The assailants are still here. I may be tired of all this trash, but it isn't something I'd leave behind without burning it all.
"Dariush can lead the way."

*             *             *

"And that was how it all happened, sire. After drawing battle plans and ensuring the upper half of the Aerie was fortified, Leafsnail and the rest led the push while Vector ensured we were off, safe. On the wings of a Hippogriff."
"That doesn't explain the scorch marks on you and the lack of them on Lenglon."
"Err, accidental fireball. Mostly."
"Well, that is all the questions I have and I'm glad to receive this missive intact. Now the problem is, how to convince the King's court of the presence of the Templars?"

~Ch. 2 End~

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 02:31:43 am

Wow Tiruin, you write amazing flavor.

Thank you for the tale, tis glorious.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: nightcrafter27 on July 02, 2013, 09:23:57 am

Quote from: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 02:31:43 am

Wow Tiruin, you write amazing flavor.

Thank you for the tale, tis glorious.

Agreed. Beautifully written, and you did a wonderful job incorporating player's personalities into the flavor. Fantastic!

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Dariush on July 02, 2013, 10:38:41 am

Dunno about you, but I found it too confusing. It's unclear who is speaking with whom and which events are being described. You should really cut down on the dialogue and write more exposition.

Title: Re: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 03:43:49 pm

Yep. I got that nudge of confusion by who is talking and who isn't. ;p

But I'm still glad you all had fun through it all.

...*edit edit edit*

[Edit]: Since people are asking and debating on the lore... there is an unreliable narrator.

Now onto the next BM with you lot. Shoo! Shoo!