Post by: Borge on December 31, 2014, 09:43:47 pm
Myself and my companions got decimated in Adventure mode by 3 undead Geese. They dodged almost every strike i attempted despite being very highly skilled. Not to mention they are nearly impossible to sneak up on unlike living enemies.
Post by: Sergarr on January 01, 2015, 04:43:01 am
atm they will murder them happy fun stuff like geese
Post by: StagnantSoul on January 01, 2015, 11:58:11 am
THIS is why I hate the undead.
Post by: Witty on January 01, 2015, 12:08:40 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on January 01, 2015, 04:35:19 pm
Post by: malvado on January 02, 2015, 06:29:46 am
Basically they should have their strength in numbers and the ease of "Re-animation" by an evil sorcerer / priest , modern style zombies are quick and deadly , but even so they don't have the strength to bite through chainmail (their teeth would break) or even punch an well armored human / dwarf to death.
But a horde could manage to get hold of a humanoid and tear of limbs if caught by numbers. Single handedly they shouldnt be much of a threat...
Post by: Robsoie on January 02, 2015, 12:13:03 pm
They're animated dead things, they shouldn't give any value for their existence or be intelligent enough by themselves to dodge , parry or block.
Now for the abnormal strength of their strikes, to make it more balanced (as it's not unusual to have a hundred of undead to go through if you approach a tower and a lucky hit from an undead can chip a bone , leading to your character becoming unconscious = game over) maybe it should be linked with the presence or not of their master in range to them.
If the necromancer/whatever is their master is not around of is destroyed, maybe their strength should drop noticably as without guidance or power from their master, they wouldn't be as dangerous.
Post by: endlessblaze on January 03, 2015, 01:27:38 am
I was legendary in almost everything but dodging. After preparing for a tower assault, gathering fifteen silver mace wielders and slaughtering hundreds of dingoes and wolves until they were good, macro throwing until I was a legendary thrower, kicker, biter, striker, misc object user, maceman, and wrestler, thank you mr. amethyst man, wielding a platinum artifact mace and shield, and grabbed tons of silver maces for throwing in a city's three weapon shops, I thought I was ready. We assembled outside the tower, a few giant boars enticing a couple zombies out apparently, as some boars ran by us followed by zombies. So we attacked. Five corpses, three companions each plus me. I struck for the hand, hoping to disable punches. It dodged. Then another punched me in the steel masterwork helmet and leather hooded head. I was knocked out. My companions slaughtered. They killed me in three kicks.
THIS is why I hate the undead.
I have never heard of anything that screams NERF ME so loudly....normaly I say that if you think it's op the you need to game better.....this is not one of those times.....
Post by: nuget102 on January 05, 2015, 03:55:55 pm
Post by: Urist McVoyager on January 06, 2015, 12:40:36 pm
Post by: tonnot98 on January 09, 2015, 02:07:53 pm
I'm pretty sure it's hard coded right now. The only thing I can say to change is to go into Advanced Worldgen and take away the Secrets, since those create Necromancers in the first place.But then again, it's extremely easy to avoid them in the first place. The only way to encounter zombies is to willingly embark near or adventure towards a tower.
We could have 3 kinds of zombies, though. We could have husks which are still husks, but the current zombies should be called "Damned Dead" or something of the sort and have those reside within carnival spires, while the 34.11 undead which were still pretty damn deadly could be the default for necromancers and mummies. Maybe the normal undead could have different strength bonuses depending on if they still have a majority of their flesh and muscle-mass or not. (Looking at you, tombs.)
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 09, 2015, 04:55:30 pm
Post by: Aranna on January 10, 2015, 02:52:38 am
Is the undead curse hardcoded? If it isn't then you can change it to make them weaker (or even stronger if you're insane and/or a masochist :P) but yea, a difficulty setting for undead would be nice.
I think the code for those is in the raws under the file "interaction examples", I believe that the Necromancer one is "interaction_secret" with this being the zombie's code:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit:
Also, for slowing them down there is a Syndrome Token "CE_SPEED_CHANGE" that can change their speed, if you'd like to make them slower (or speed them up if you want that). I've not done modding in a long time, but I think it would be "[CE_SPEED_CHANGE:SPEED_PERC:%:START:0]" (Percent Change of ingame speed, so higher is faster and I think 50 would half the speed) or "[CE_SPEED_CHANGE:SPEED_ADD:#:START:0]" (I think it alters the raw's speed value, so lower is faster but not sure if it adds/subtracts or sets to the number). Should note, I'm not 100% sure on if the "CE_SPEED_CHANGE" (specifically SPEED_ADD) is still usable, as the wiki says it alters the "SPEED" token, which was changed out for more specific tokens. Also, I think the "START:0" part can be altered to slow them down after having be raised for a bit (I think the number is turn delays to start effect?)
(Sorry if there are any errors, it's a bit late and I haven't done modding in awhile)
Post by: Areyar on January 10, 2015, 10:23:32 am
spoilered : modforum
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't recall, they don't spread miasma either where they should as composed of rotting meat, but this may just because usually I've met them outside.
Post by: Dwarf4Explosives on January 11, 2015, 06:16:54 am
The fact zombies are very strong in df2014 is not really disturbing me, but the fact they're dodging and jumping around to avoid your strikes or just parrying/blocking them as if they were living beings trying to survive is really a problem for immersion.
They're animated dead things, they shouldn't give any value for their existence or be intelligent enough by themselves to dodge , parry or block.
Now for the abnormal strength of their strikes, to make it more balanced (as it's not unusual to have a hundred of undead to go through if you approach a tower and a lucky hit from an undead can chip a bone , leading to your character becoming unconscious = game over) maybe it should be linked with the presence or not of their master in range to them.
If the necromancer/whatever is their master is not around of is destroyed, maybe their strength should drop noticably as without guidance or power from their master, they wouldn't be as dangerous.
Considering that they've already gone through the effort of reanimating them, I can't really see why a necromancer wouldn't add the comparatively minor ability to think for itself; movement and object recognition is a lot harder than sapience.
Post by: Areyar on January 11, 2015, 06:00:00 pm
Object tracking and movement are lower-brain functions, much more ancient, basic, robust and automatic so requiring no or little sentience.
Object recognition and purposeful action do require processing though.
unless minds of reanimated corpses are guided by trapped ghosts, spirits or deamons they will need external guidance... I'm not entirely sure which Toady has chosen tbh. iirc the classic fantasy zombie usually retains some traits and insticts from when they were alive, but their 'souls' and most memories are already lost to whatever afterlife there may be in the respective settings.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 12, 2015, 06:37:31 am
Post by: Putnam on January 12, 2015, 10:20:45 pm
Is the undead curse hardcoded? If it isn't then you can change it to make them weaker (or even stronger if you're insane and/or a masochist :P) but yea, a difficulty setting for undead would be nice.
I think the code for those is in the raws under the file "interaction examples", I believe that the Necromancer one is "interaction_secret" with this being the zombie's code
They're called "interaction examples" explicitly because they are examples; modifying them will do nothing.
Post by: Gargomaxthalus on January 14, 2015, 08:23:14 pm
Zombie's toughness and strength boosts should decay along with their flesh. I can buy that a fresh corpse would be stronger and tougher than a person due to no inhibitions, but walking skeletons and animated hair should be as useless as a golden axe.
Actually, magically animated skeletons tend to be able to move in ways that fleshy beings are incapable of. They are lighter, faster and more nimble. Their only weakness is blunt force trauma, with arrows and bolts often glancing off or harmlessly passing between the ribs and the huge void between them and the pelvis. Skeletons are bad news.
Post by: Jakob on January 14, 2015, 10:41:44 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 15, 2015, 06:26:49 am
Plate armour is invincible to stabbing and cutting by a creature of human size. Blunt trauma can still penetrate plate armour, albeit less effectively. A zombie's fist should just shatter and pulp itself rather than piercing plate armour (when, o when will attackers be able to damage themselves by hitting something hard?), but the wearer could still be knocked over or winded by the blow, just not killed.
Post by: Bloax on January 15, 2015, 07:44:52 am
Any actual weapon will obliterate them, unless of course said weapon happens to be ammunition-based.
Post by: Verjigorm on January 28, 2015, 06:09:23 pm
The original fantasy dwarves were in Norse myths and forged masterworks from metal, and the original fantasy zombies were from Haitian mythology and were undead slaves raised to work on sorcerers' farms and increase the spiritual wealth of the sorcerer. They possessed only half their souls and were condemned to be slaves if they had displeased Baron Samedi, who took the good dead Haitians to paradise. When considering depictions of a fantastic creature, it is best to go back to the original stories.Eastern Germanic traditions in the iron age(so, BC, and predating Haitin zombies by about a millenia, atleast) held that the dead could and would rise from the grave, filled with a thirst for blood and a taste for human flesh. This belief was widespread enough to influence both burial traditions, and the tactics of specific tribes. Through-out the eastern stretches of Germania(into Pomerania, Prussia, Poland, Mazovia and Ukraine) there were pre-christial burial where the traditional gravegoods of warriors are ritually burned and broken. Swowrds would be broken, their hilts burnt, shields would be burnt, helmets crushed and burnt, etc. The belief was that whiel a warrior needed his goods in Valhalla, if you left them on earth, when the corpse rises, it would have weapons. Corpses were also burnt and placed in urns, rather than buried.
A specific tribe, probably in the Sil;esia region(so modern Czech Republic) known as the Harri took advantage of this belief by painting themselves black and cultivating a reputation that they devoured the corpses of their foes, and were the dead unleashed from Hel. They ustilized this in ambushes and night attacks, which were traditional German tactics, but they were noted as being particularly fearsome on account of their reputation and apperance.
In the Old Norse traditions(which carry on from Germanic traditions, hence Wotan becomes Odin, Thunorozz becoms Thor, Tiawaz is Tyr, and much of the mythic structures are retained) have numerous forms of undead, with the Draugr and Haugbui. The Draugr were described as blackish-blue(reference that black body paint of the Harri!), often of immense supernatural strength(and sometimes size!), sometimes immune to weapons, sometimes not. Those slain by the Draugr would often return as Draugr themselves.
I'll also note these Eastern Germanic beliefs are probably also a root origin for the Vampr: proto-slavs and eastern germans interacted a great deal, to the extent that there's difficulty identifying different settlements remains, because of the very similar material culture.
So, yeah, There's older myths of walking dead who desire to kill all life, that are internal to the same mythic system that developed the concept of Dwarves. Probvably good to go with that tradition, rather than something completely unconnected.
Post by: Bloax on January 29, 2015, 02:10:48 am
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on January 29, 2015, 04:13:31 am
Post by: ☼!!Troll Fur Sock!!☼ on January 31, 2015, 04:21:40 am
But that does not explain why they're better at it than my legendary demigod.
Post by: Kamamura on February 05, 2015, 07:44:25 pm
In real life, plate armor is pretty much invincible, no way it should be punched through by a zombie.
Nope, not quite. Longbow bodkin arrows go through when hitting directly, crossbow bolt from a heavy crossbow goes through the whole armored knight, including the shield. Direct thrust from a polearm can pierce it too.
Plate armor was not built to withstand blows like tank armor, it was made to made blows glance off the user.
Post by: utunnels on February 05, 2015, 07:52:35 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on February 06, 2015, 11:51:31 am
Nope, not quite. Longbow bodkin arrows go through when hitting directly, crossbow bolt from a heavy crossbow goes through the whole armored knight, including the shield. Direct thrust from a polearm can pierce it too.
Plate armor was not built to withstand blows like tank armor, it was made to made blows glance off the user.
Longbow bodkin arrows could not usually pierce well made plate. Even if they somehow did, they would still be unlikely to pierce the padding and do organ damage. Arrows killed armoured knights by hitting them in the gaps in their armour, not by piercing the plate. Even mail could stop longbow arrows at medium range.
A crossbow bolt could pierce plate at short range, but punching through a man seems unlikely except in the case of very big and slow crossbows.
Stabbing with a polearm would not pierce plate. Smashing would send a crushing shock through the armour and damage the victim underneath.
Piercing plate was very hard to do (if you have ever thrust through plate, please tell me about it), and most attacks on plated opponents involved smashing with blunt weapons or attacking the gaps in the armour. See the historical treatises for proof of this, and also this video and others on the channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1WZLVZYBwQ
Post by: golemgunk on February 10, 2015, 03:48:30 pm
Post by: fomori on February 12, 2015, 03:04:58 pm
Is the undead curse hardcoded? If it isn't then you can change it to make them weaker (or even stronger if you're insane and/or a masochist :P) but yea, a difficulty setting for undead would be nice.
I think the code for those is in the raws under the file "interaction examples", I believe that the Necromancer one is "interaction_secret" with this being the zombie's code
They're called "interaction examples" explicitly because they are examples; modifying them will do nothing.
However if you put a modified version of the example text into the folder for standard interactions, they'll appear in world generation. Do that whilst setting Secrets to 0 on advanced worldgen and voila.
Post by: k9wazere on March 26, 2015, 06:47:56 pm
Post by: Ops Fox on March 26, 2015, 11:57:31 pm
Would be nice if they didn't have phantom bodies too. An undead hand should not be able to swing a punch, much less a single punch which caves in my armored elite soldiers' heads almost every time. The most an undead hand should be able to do is walk like a crab and choke an unarmored target.Why unarmored? no true warrior covers his throat haven't you read combat reports?
I would think the overall issue of zombie qualities would be handled procedurally eventually, maybe even several types of procedural zombies for a given world with some being unique to a given necromancer or place. A big issue with the zombies is that the game does not model damage done to weapons when they strike something, a platinum war hammer no matter how dense should deform when it strikes an armored warrior. A human fist striking a armored opponent should not be equivalent of hitting someone with a mace, it should deal damage back to the hand based on how much force is used which would in turn limit how hard someone punches.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on March 28, 2015, 04:43:24 am
Post by: BoredVirulence on March 28, 2015, 03:20:09 pm
... A human fist striking a armored opponent should not be equivalent of hitting someone with a mace, it should deal damage back to the hand based on how much force is used which would in turn limit how hard someone punches.
I'm just saying, the day this happens we won't have people reducing the force in their punches, we'll have people pulping their hands in regular combat. Mark my words! Of course, the next bug fix release would fix it, but it will be amusing the first time...
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 29, 2015, 04:17:16 pm
One thing I would like to see return, is the option to unfix a certain bug involving werecreatures and undead. There was once a bug that meant werecreature bits that resurrected would still carry the curse, with the result being that if you chopped off the hands and head of a werecreature and resurrected those bits (or if an evil biome resurrected those bits, for example) upon the full moon those bits would become three fully formed and healed copies of were creature. The result would be an exponential increase in werecreature corpses that would inevitably swamp a Fortress unless the body parts were incinerated. This was a bug, yes - but it was of such a calamitous and entertaining scale that it would be amazing if it returned in some legitimately terrifying corner of the world where the civilized races dare not tread.
Post by: Ops Fox on March 29, 2015, 04:29:04 pm
Then of course the game just wont tell you what sort of zombie your dealing with and you'd have to figure it out when it starts nomming on dwarfs.
Post by: ComatosePhoenix on March 30, 2015, 10:50:50 am
Post by: klefenz on March 30, 2015, 01:20:30 pm
it would be interesting to see a less... "Chaotic Evil" necromancer tower where the zombies are employed in mundane tasks instead of murder.
I think they supposedly do that, as in, the tower didnt build itself, and the necromancer didnt put the bricks in place.
Post by: i2amroy on March 31, 2015, 04:56:44 pm
I have mixed opinions here, on one hand I like that DF undead are more than just HHHHNNNG BRAAIIINS, and more like the magical skeleton soldiers of myth. Machines that will hack you to pieces.Indeed, to quote the Dresden Files:
Quote from: Harry Dresden
What's the use of a foot soldier who can't do anything but hobble along and moan about brains?
It's nice to see undead that can actually deal some damage (as opposed to your normal "brains" zombie, which pretty much only win through plot powers more than any powers of their own).
Post by: Cobbler89 on March 31, 2015, 05:20:10 pm
I for one an rather pleased with undead being competent and threatening; it actually makes them interesting and well... Threatening. I don't see why there has to be a conflict of undead, if anything DF is more than capable of having both the living dead and the undead, competent critters and shambling corpses can both represent varieties much like how husks represent the unkillable soulless murdermachine out to end all life variety of undead.I could go for were+undead that don't regenerate the rest of the body, just transform the part that happens to be animated -- so, hack off a wereiguana's head, head and body both get reanimated as undead, on the full moon they transform into an undead iguana body and an undead iguana head, undead iguana head bites somebody and turns them into a wereiguana too... Something like that. Makes sense to me.
One thing I would like to see return, is the option to unfix a certain bug involving werecreatures and undead. There was once a bug that meant werecreature bits that resurrected would still carry the curse, with the result being that if you chopped off the hands and head of a werecreature and resurrected those bits (or if an evil biome resurrected those bits, for example) upon the full moon those bits would become three fully formed and healed copies of were creature. The result would be an exponential increase in werecreature corpses that would inevitably swamp a Fortress unless the body parts were incinerated. This was a bug, yes - but it was of such a calamitous and entertaining scale that it would be amazing if it returned in some legitimately terrifying corner of the world where the civilized races dare not tread.
I could also see undead that grow back bodies as a particularly terrifying sort of undead regardless of werecurses (though, at that point, I don't think it would matter much if they retained werecurses too). Something like that. Makes sense to me.
I'll also second the notion that it's good to have undead that can do more than crawl around mumbling about grey matter -- and that this is more in keeping with traditional/classic undead anyway, skeleton warriors and the like.
Post by: WillowLuman on March 31, 2015, 05:37:01 pm
The thing about the powerful undead is not that they exist at all, but the basic zombies that necromancers raise by the dozens-to-hundreds are vastly more powerful than the supposedly endgame HFS (either in the underworld or in vaults). The other varieties of undead (except for husks, to which they are now basically identical) are much, much easier to dispose of.
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2015, 09:28:53 pm
I like that it makes you look at a herd of zombies and not go "Ohh they are just zombies" they make you go "Ohh no! Zombies!" and you have to reconsider your approach because you know they could do real damage on you.
I certainly do not think zombies should be slow, lumbering, and clumsy (as they do build necromancer towers).
I like to think that Zombies in this case should retain all the muscle memory skills that they had in life. So fighting skills and blocking skills sure. That way the bodies of the skilled are actually valuable to the necromancers giving them a sort of method to their madness. So they could attack a fortress to get at the bodies of the greatest heroes the fortress ever had.
Post by: WillowLuman on March 31, 2015, 09:40:31 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2015, 10:11:09 pm
They are nigh-indestructible, super strong (and oftentimes, fast!), any amputations do not hinder them but become more equally capable troops, and in the rare event one gets downed, necromancers can just infinitely re-raise it, since pulping is a rare occurrence against them. Zombified barely-not-vermin can solo an entire clowncar.
Ohh don't get me wrong... They need to be fixed. Some aspects of them are just flat out broken.
But them being even better then living troops I actually like.
I do think Zombies shouldn't learn (unless they are intelligent undead) but retain all the skills they had in life (but have really low mental stats so intelligence based skills just flat out function badly).
I just like the fact that they aren't shambling fodder versions of the living creature. But rather incredibly scary undead versions of them that are hard to take down because they lack any sort of true anatomy. Things actually get stronger from being made into a zombie (well until their flesh rots off)
heck I even like that Necromancers can raise the body parts that fall off the zombies.
Post by: Dwarf4Explosives on April 01, 2015, 02:05:35 am
Post by: Borge on July 04, 2015, 06:20:30 am
Post by: draeath on July 06, 2015, 05:31:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2015, 05:35:57 pm
Post by: i00n on July 07, 2015, 02:27:53 am
The strength boost is somewhat okay (mabye just slightly too high), but the agility boost (resulting in constant dodging and very quick attacks) is too much. It feels more like fighting master warriors that can not be stunned than fighting a dead, dumb body. I could understand if they were like some damned, half dead half alive beigns with a working mind and just strenght boost from their curse but right now this does not seem to be the case. Even if it were then kinda... I don't like the fact that even someones arm poses a huge threat (untrained and unarmed civilans can't even dream about surviving such encounter from what I have seen).
I think they need a slight nerf or at least tweaking, right now I don't really see any point in embarking on an evil zone, in 0.34 things were fun (just slightly underpowered imo) but right now it's just plain silly.
Post by: BoogieMan on July 08, 2015, 08:06:02 am
I've cheated and made downright Godlike adventurers to fight them and have still gotten destroyed.
If you're in fortress mode, well, I hope you either have magma and/or a sea of weapon traps.
Post by: k33n on July 08, 2015, 07:48:03 pm
Post by: WillowLuman on July 08, 2015, 08:27:49 pm
Post by: BoogieMan on July 09, 2015, 12:47:44 am
What reason "should" the omnipotent Toad vandalize his game's setting with a bunch of smelly fantasy tropes? Keep it unique and challenging, please. Undead can be fast and strong, its cooler and makes for better stories.
How it cool or a good story where no matter how good you are, no matter what armor you have, they can one-shot punch your head out of existence? How they can wreck squads of Steel-clad experienced warriors with ease?
Broken is broken. They are too strong and too fast, it's just a fact. Broken stats isn't a challenge, it's a bug.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2015, 10:19:13 am
How it cool or a good story where no matter how good you are, no matter what armor you have, they can one-shot punch your head out of existence?DF: It doesn't matter who you are, if you bleed you can die.
How they can wreck squads of Steel-clad experienced warriors with ease?Because they're made by unholy lands that hate all life or they're made by necromancers who have discovered the secrets of life and death after having made pacts with strange gods whose interactions seem limited to cursing the mortals beneath them. These aren't exactly your standard goblins. And for that matter, DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.
Broken is broken. They are too strong and too fast, it's just a fact. Broken stats isn't a challenge, it's a bug.Or perhaps this is a problem that cannot be solved by charging into it headlong. Not everything can be solved by an axedwarf.
You can:
- Use your Fortress and Marksdwarves
- Cave ins
- Bridges
- Quarantine/Lockdown systems
- Freeze traps
- Traps in general are godsends. Cage traps are still OP and fields of stone traps are cheap and plentiful.
- Train your military well and truly good before sending them into battle with the undead. If they're not highly-disciplined, legendary, super-dwarvenly mighty, tough and agile, equipped with the best bronze, iron, steel or candy you've got; consider picking another day to fight.
- Create a vampire squad that can walk right past a zombie horde and assassinate the necromancer, before getting to work on the horde itself.
- Create a were-creature squad that can be torn to pieces and not really be bothered by that at all, whilst marksdwarves pick off the necromancers from above.
- When in doubt, magma.
- When in doubt, release the inorganic megabeasts.
Post by: WillowLuman on July 09, 2015, 10:27:22 am
Post by: BoogieMan on July 09, 2015, 10:27:55 am
The thing is, getting better in the game (better stats, gear) doesn't make much difference against the undead, while it does against everything else. Individually undead can be extremely powerful, and they often come in bigger swarms that anything else.
You can cheat and make yourself a ridiculously powerful adventurer in masterwork steel or adamantine and still get one shotted by average undead. Or getting killed by hair or a flap of skin when you make Conan the Barbarian look like a little pixie.
OP, and obviously incomplete implementation. End of story.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2015, 10:45:08 am
Though raven corpses being able to solo the entire HFS is probably a bug. I don't think undead were intended to be the toughest things in the game, but they are.Hahaha, true enough. Though to be fair, ravens are supernatural murder machines in life and death; several hundred of anything should be terrifying and this was in 34.11 where pulping didn't exist (so culmulative damage beyond fire couldn't eventually render a corpse incapable of being resurrected) and fire itself couldn't damage corpses.
I still think there could be much done to accommodate everyone's tastes with RNG corpses, so you have some that align more with quasi-intelligent undead retaining skills and are bog standard (by DF standards), some with skill rust and rotting, some that are weak like so many flaps of skin flailing in the wind and corpses which align more with husks and are bruce lees made out of iron.
Post by: Witty on July 09, 2015, 11:07:46 am
DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.
wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.
Anyway, I honestly can't see where the pro-OP undead people are coming from. It's clearly unintended for them to be so ridiculously overpowered. Wasn't the entire point of the pulping mechanic to nerf undead?
Looking at some arena test fights, every single kill an undead got versus a better skilled, armored troop came from a punch to the head. Every single time. That's silly, and broken. There's really nothing else that can be said about it.
I can't wait for the day that DF can finally have invaders that aren't either mincemeat-waiting-to-happen or hyper broken unstoppable death machines
Post by: Calidovi on July 09, 2015, 12:29:33 pm
DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.
wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.
Anyway, I honestly can't see where the pro-OP undead people are coming from. It's clearly unintended for them to be so ridiculously overpowered. Wasn't the entire point of the pulping mechanic to nerf undead?
Looking at some arena test fights, every single kill an undead got versus a better skilled, armored troop came from a punch to the head. Every single time. That's silly, and broken. There's really nothing else that can be said about it.
I can't wait for the day that DF can finally have invaders that aren't either mincemeat-waiting-to-happen or hyper broken unstoppable death machines
Armies don't scale. When civilizations develop as your own does, then challenging enemies will be easier to come by.
Post by: Robsoie on July 10, 2015, 12:26:53 pm
And let's not talk about adventure mode in which you can slaughter goblins by thousands without most of them even trying to fight back.
But past versions gobs (34.11 and earlier) often fielded several weaponmasters along them , and they were real troubles, not pushovers like they are now, weaponmasters were quite much as strong as legendary dwarven warriors.
Now undead, they're indeed broken as in simply not fun or interesting challenge, if your fort get an undead siege, what are your options if you want to continue your fort
- just turtle in and ignore the undead
- you have made tons of traps to catch them all
If you choose to meet them on the field to have some epic battle like in past versions (in which the power of undead was in their huge number and re-animated bodyparts as they were falling+ re-animating of your own dwarves when they were overwhelmed) , a single undead is able to one punch your legendary through its armor, chip the bone resulting in him getting unconscious and of course dead some turns later, that's not really leading into better story.
In adventure mode, multi attack is so overpowered (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149437.msg6105693#msg6105693) that you can take several dozen of undeads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5714508#msg5714508) around their necro tower by yourself if you apply that multi-attack accuracy exploit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151831.msg6364309#msg6364309), and if you try regular fight, at some point one of the undead will punch you through your nice armor and chip a bone -> direct unconsciousness, then of course dead.
Again, it does not contribute to any better story.
Hopefully goblins and undead will get some really good rebalance.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 12, 2015, 05:11:52 am
wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.Experiences may vary xP
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on July 20, 2015, 12:05:05 pm
Post by: kemoT on July 21, 2015, 05:36:30 pm
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on July 21, 2015, 05:52:58 pm
Honestly, I think that we lack a middle ground if it comes to difficulty of sieges. Goblins are too easy to defeat and zombies are OP. This leaves you with a choice of having no challenge at all, or getting massacred without a chance to fight back. IMO, we should have kobolds take the role of df2014 goblins. Greenskins themselves should be buffed and undead's agility nerfed.
Rather than changing kobolds, just fix goblins and undead. No need to add more variables and make things even more complicated.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 21, 2015, 05:54:41 pm
Post by: kemoT on July 22, 2015, 03:30:16 am
Well, kobolds in fact can siege you even in this version. My point is to make them do it more often so that they present a challenge in the early game. If we made goblins more powerful they could become new undead: strong and attacking fast.Honestly, I think that we lack a middle ground if it comes to difficulty of sieges. Goblins are too easy to defeat and zombies are OP. This leaves you with a choice of having no challenge at all, or getting massacred without a chance to fight back. IMO, we should have kobolds take the role of df2014 goblins. Greenskins themselves should be buffed and undead's agility nerfed.
Rather than changing kobolds, just fix goblins and undead. No need to add more variables and make things even more complicated.
Post by: quekwoambojish on July 23, 2015, 06:47:17 pm
Go ahead and engage a baddie in adventure mode or fort mode, chances are nothing short of these 3 things will happen:
1. Baddie cries and runs away.
2. Baddie doesn't fight back and you feel bad.
3. Baddie collapses any visible iron helmet with fist cannons.
There is the rare case that some funky beasty puts up a fight, but again normally this resorts to the usual all or nothing:
1. Funky Beasty is made of fairy dust.
2. Funky Beasty shoots webs.
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 01:48:23 am
Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 26, 2015, 06:04:11 am
Yeah an undead should only be at least 2-3 times more dangerous then the creature it was animated from.Why? There is very little consistent logic towards what undead should be, flapping skins and skeletons in the wind or abominable end-game constructs to not be trifled with?
Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.
Post by: fomori on July 26, 2015, 01:30:44 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 03:01:56 pm
Yeah an undead should only be at least 2-3 times more dangerous then the creature it was animated from.Why? There is very little consistent logic towards what undead should be, flapping skins and skeletons in the wind or abominable end-game constructs to not be trifled with?
Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.
Because an undead being can be stabbed without going down.
I know we are used to Resident Evil where Zombies are incredibly fragile and can go down with a punch to the gut (Somehow...)
But these aren't that kind of zombie. You are dealing with a unliving version of the creature, one who feels no pain, doesn't bleed, doesn't suffer organ damage, and won't fall unconscious.
That is 2-3 times more dangerous right there. A Undead Dragon is worth 2-3 Dragons :P
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 26, 2015, 03:10:57 pm
Because an undead being can be stabbed without going down.I see nothing wrong with this :D
I know we are used to Resident Evil where Zombies are incredibly fragile and can go down with a punch to the gut (Somehow...)
But these aren't that kind of zombie. You are dealing with a unliving version of the creature, one who feels no pain, doesn't bleed, doesn't suffer organ damage, and won't fall unconscious.
That is 2-3 times more dangerous right there. A Undead Dragon is worth 2-3 Dragons :P
One of my favourite DF moments of all time has to be when I beheaded a human corpse - to my surprise it did not die and its headless body just began killing me to death. Magma, vampire soldiers, supersoldiers and pulping squads, what a sight!
Post by: kemoT on July 26, 2015, 03:46:05 pm
I think that the problem is incredible agility of undead. They are currently just too fast and hard to hit, which makes them op. You can't escape, you can't engage them them at a distance, you can't fight them unless you are incredibly strong. If they were slower and less agile you could at least fill them with bolts before finishing them off with military. I think it would make fighting them a lot more balanced.
Post by: Witty on July 29, 2015, 04:09:57 pm
Post by: TheCheeseMaker on July 29, 2015, 06:55:41 pm
Because I think having undead be a challenge for late game is good, as there aren't very many other threats besides HFS, but they certainly shouldn't kill my entire legendary+++ army while only taking 3 casualties.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:31:44 pm
But the op doesn't want to make zombies less tough
He wants to make them the slow, stupid, suicidal, easy zombies.
Guess what! It doesn't matter how strong you are... if you don't swing fast, you don't do damage.
Which I strongly oppose because Dwarf Fortress is a breath of fresh air.
Post by: kemoT on July 30, 2015, 01:55:05 am
Post by: Robsoie on July 30, 2015, 03:56:54 am
And let's not talk about the stronger undead like the husks, they were scary in every way for a dwarf fortress.
No idea why Toady suddenly decide to overpower the lesser undead so badly in df2014.
When the only way to fight with any undead is to either exploit a badly broken combat mechanic in adventure mode (the df2014 multi-attack) or in fort mode to simply close the bridge and never fight (because any df2014 undead can one-punch your guy through their amor at any time and chip their bones, rendered them unconscious then dead) and wait until they leave, it's just broken gameplay.
Toady should just bring back the 34.11 undead (and goblins, trolls and bandits, they were a lot more of a challenge than the pathetics ones of df2014), it was the most fun sieges and adventure were.
Post by: pisskop on July 30, 2015, 04:56:13 pm
Im guessing they were ramped up bc of pulping body parts. From my own experience a competent adventurer and proficient fortressdwarves should be okay against a similarly sized, non-armored zombie.
Id like more than pulping kill them, however. Or less of a buff to their attribuites.
Post by: quekwoambojish on July 30, 2015, 07:11:26 pm
Zombies in DF dont bother me as much as others.
Im guessing they were ramped up bc of pulping body parts. From my own experience a competent adventurer and proficient fortressdwarves should be okay against a similarly sized, non-armored zombie.
Id like more than pulping kill them, however. Or less of a buff to their attribuites.
Sorry, but a competent skilled adventurer will get absolutely obliterated in ANY case against even the smallest of zombies let alone one your own size. Legendary skills is nigh mandatory, and even then one lone zombie is still likely to take you out.
Proficiently skilled fortressdwarves will have an incredibly hard time as well, even 2v1.
Are you maybe talking about last releases zombies?
Post by: pisskop on July 30, 2015, 07:15:25 pm
Try dodging out of the zombies way, slashing off their flying/leggy parts, hacking off any weapons, then gibbing at the head.
1v1 or even v2 it can be done.
Post by: quekwoambojish on July 30, 2015, 07:48:31 pm
Nah. Though fortress dwarves are ai controlled and your mileage may vary.
Try dodging out of the zombies way, slashing off their flying/leggy parts, hacking off any weapons, then gibbing at the head.
1v1 or even v2 it can be done.
Unless you're exploiting the multi attack dodge mechanic, or wearing full steel/adamant, you're absolutely going to be trashed as a competent adventurer 1v2. It's not even a question at that point.
Either that, or everyone except you is doing it wrong.
Post by: Urist Tilaturist on August 04, 2015, 01:12:36 pm
Post by: Chevaleresse on August 20, 2015, 12:47:46 am
1. The whole thing with goblins, etc being incredibly weak is a bug, or at the very least an oversight resulting from armies actually existing rather than just sort of popping into existence on your doorstop. Commenting on the difficulty of DF2014 goblins isn't really logical since their weakness results from several mechanics that (probably) aren't quite working as intended.
2. I agree with the notion that zombies should remain incredibly threatening. Any person who plays adventure mode (or pays attention to combat logs at all) knows that soldiers are rarely felled because they were rendered incapable of being alive or fighting due to organ damage; they die because they feel pain, they get tired, and they bleed. Simple removal of those things is enough to render almost anything into a dangerous killing machine. Think about how much damage a simple house cat could cause to a fully grown human if it didn't feel pain or immediately die/fall unconscious upon having a limb crushed or removed.
3. Undead are still -absurdly- powerful. I understand giving them slight buffs to strength, since your physical power is in part limited due to the fact that you feel pain. But the massive increases in strength on top of the most important stat in DF (agility) makes them ridiculous. They are outrunning (and therefore outfighting) ridiculously strong modded adventurers consistently. To take a peek at this particular creature's stats:
Code: [Select]
[BODY_SIZE:12:0:360000]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:1000:1300:1550:1900:2300:2550:3000] +++
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:50:150:600:800:900:1000:1100] --
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:INTUITION:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:FOCUS:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:PATIENCE:50:200:400:600:800:1000:1200] --
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:MEMORY:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SPATIAL_SENSE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:KINESTHETIC_SENSE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500] -
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SOCIAL_AWARENESS:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500] -On top of four arms flagged with independent multiattacking, i.e. five free attacks in one turn without penalty. Undead overpower and outpace a creature at the very top of these ranges at adult size. (I should mention that this creature's attacks are so powerful that you're better off simply punching things to death rather than using a weapon, as said punches are capable of removing limbs from basically anything smaller than you.)4. 40.24 combat seems broken in general. A dwarven adventurer who was a legendary fighter dressed in full steel, with artifact steel mail shirt was easily disassembled by a simple spearman, if I am remembering correctly. Bogeymen remain as stupidly powerful as ever, shattering skulls with single punches despite being a couple inches tall. It's impossible to tell hostiles from friendlies, and even successfully doing so still gets you branded as a murderer.
5. Speaking about 1v1 situations with undead is absurd. The smallest group of undead I have ever encountered in any mode was around 40, from a necromancer siege.
Post by: angelious on August 20, 2015, 02:43:35 pm
df is known for being "a difficult game" i dont really see any reason to make it easier just because people are having hard time with it...
Post by: Robsoie on August 20, 2015, 03:14:34 pm
The difference in df2014 is that undead are able to one hit - unconscious (as a bone will be hit = instant unconscious) any dwarf (then easily kill after that) through whatever armor your dwarves are using, unless you're playing in adventure mode and abuse the multi-attack exploit (that the AI in fortress mode has no idea on how to do) in which case the undead will nearly never hit you squarely.
So in Fortress mode when the only viable way to fight an undead horde invading your fortress is to actually just close the doors and/or make traps for them all (or wait for them to become bugged and stay where they are forever), it makes it for extremely boring gameplay, as it offers no actual choice for the player.
Especially as there's no real invasion alternative, goblins nearly never coming.
Something that didn't happened in 34.11 in which it was dangerous and would get your troops casualties but it was possible to fight and defeat an invading horde assuming you were able to deal with the stealthy necromancer fast enough (or the re-animation of your own fallen and the undead body parts would get you) , while hoping that necromancer was alone and not with other stealth necromancer friends.
And that without even mentionning the husks and what they could do to your dwarves.
Post by: Witty on August 20, 2015, 03:17:02 pm
1. The whole thing with goblins, etc being incredibly weak is a bug, or at the very least an oversight resulting from armies actually existing rather than just sort of popping into existence on your doorstop. Commenting on the difficulty of DF2014 goblins isn't really logical since their weakness results from several mechanics that (probably) aren't quite working as intended.
Goblin difficulty isn't just about the bugs introduced in .40. The issues a lot of people (myself included) have with goblins stems back to the previous version and earlier. Goblins (and all soldiers really) have, and always have, the bare minimum amount of equipment. No full armor coverage. The skill of siegers are consistently awful and subpar - made even more apparent when you can train any dwarf from nothing to legendary within two years. Yes, 34.11 had some hard coded stuff to negate this, like properly designated sqauds and weapon masters (which obviously don't exist anymore), but these still didn't do much. The fact is, 5 legendary dwarves equipped with decent gear can destroy entire goblin armies. This has always been the case, and it's clearly quite broken. The issue really has its roots in many places (invader equipment, skills in general, combat bugs, etc.), but it's still valid to talk about goblin difficulty in DF2014, because there would still be many issues even if you fixed all the mechanics DF2014 broke.
Post by: angelious on August 20, 2015, 03:21:43 pm
In DF undead have never been "slow and clumsy" and have always been perfectly able to kill unprepared dwarf.
The difference in df2014 is that undead are able to one hit - unconscious (as a bone will be hit = instant unconscious) any dwarf (then easily kill after that) through whatever armor your dwarves are using, unless you're playing in adventure mode and abuse the multi-attack exploit (that the AI in fortress mode has no idea on how to do) in which case the undead will nearly never hit you squarely.
So in Fortress mode when the only viable way to fight an undead horde invading your fortress is to actually just close the doors and/or make traps for them all (or wait for them to become bugged and stay where they are forever), it makes it for extremely boring gameplay, as it offers no actual choice for the player.
Especially as there's no real invasion alternative, goblins nearly never coming.
Something that didn't happened in 34.11 in which it was dangerous and would get your troops casualties but it was possible to fight and defeat an invading horde assuming you were able to deal with the stealthy necromancer fast enough (or the re-animation of your own fallen and the undead body parts would get you) , while hoping that necromancer was alone and not with other stealth necromancer friends.
And that without even mentionning the husks and what they could do to your dwarves.
you can actually hack the zombies into pieces and pulp so there just isnt anything left to stay reanimated...or create magma cannons. or pitfall traps.
also honestly,i dont think nerfing things in this game JUST because they are difficult is needed...the difficulty is one of the funnier aspects of the game.
Post by: malvado on August 20, 2015, 04:28:40 pm
I can't say that I find a game very enjoying if you have to save scum and hope you don't encounter Zombies even if you are fully armored and have legendary skills , it should be difficult ( mainly because of the inmense numbers of undeads ) but not impossible and you should have an option.
That was the good thing about Fortress mode before Zombies became the most deadly thing on Dwarfland even before the circus , you somewhat knew that you would be challenged and if you did dig too deep you would risk being smashed to pulpy dwarf bits pretty fast by the circus clowns.
Ive enjoyed both Adventure mode and Dwarf mode and I have to honestly say that this current release is the one i find less enjoyable even though it has a lot more than the other versions , then again it's not because of one problem but a multitude of problems that adds a bit to the playability of the current version one by one :
*Zombies : As other people has stated , way too strong and deadly. Should be stronger than a normal sentient being , but not that overpowered as they currently are.
*Bugs : Quite a few small bugs that either crashes your game or impacts some aspects of the game. At least they might get fixed over time.
*Game speed : It's very hard to enjoy a game that slows down over time and once you hit a certain speed everything seems to crawl to a stop. I've been down to 10Fps and it was very hard to continue to play that fortress even though it was only a few years old and had almost reached 125 dwarves.
I am faithfull that Toady will be able to correct some of these problems and perhaps in a few months time we won't remember the problems we had in this release.
Post by: angelious on August 20, 2015, 04:45:59 pm
The main problem is that this game isn't just about Fortress mode , it's also about Adventure mode , as such things needs to be a bit more balanced in order to make both modes entertaining and playable for everyone.
I can't say that I find a game very enjoying if you have to save scum and hope you don't encounter Zombies even if you are fully armored and have legendary skills , it should be difficult ( mainly because of the inmense numbers of undeads ) but not impossible and you should have an option.
That was the good thing about Fortress mode before Zombies became the most deadly thing on Dwarfland even before the circus , you somewhat knew that you would be challenged and if you did dig too deep you would risk being smashed to pulpy dwarf bits pretty fast by the circus clowns.
Ive enjoyed both Adventure mode and Dwarf mode and I have to honestly say that this current release is the one i find less enjoyable even though it has a lot more than the other versions , then again it's not because of one problem but a multitude of problems that adds a bit to the playability of the current version one by one :
*Zombies : As other people has stated , way too strong and deadly. Should be stronger than a normal sentient being , but not that overpowered as they currently are.
*Bugs : Quite a few small bugs that either crashes your game or impacts some aspects of the game. At least they might get fixed over time.
*Game speed : It's very hard to enjoy a game that slows down over time and once you hit a certain speed everything seems to crawl to a stop. I've been down to 10Fps and it was very hard to continue to play that fortress even though it was only a few years old and had almost reached 125 dwarves.
I am faithfull that Toady will be able to correct some of these problems and perhaps in a few months time we won't remember the problems we had in this release.
the fps death is a common problem that i doubt will be fixed anytime soon...
zombies..i honestly dont see the slag. there has been numerous animals that are supposed to be weak that have turned out stronger than god. true some of these were nerfed, but mostly it was never on purpose nerf but rather they got nerfed along some other major patch in as a side effect.i seriously am againts nerfing things just because they are difficult. thats just needles pandering.
also df isnt really supposed to be fair...
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 21, 2015, 04:35:16 am
Zombies right now are not fun at all. It's not "needles pandering" to explain that a self-replicating common enemy can one-shot kill legendary swordsmasters through adamantium full-plate reliably, every time.
Post by: angelious on August 21, 2015, 06:32:01 am
DF may not always be fair, but it is supposed to be fun.
Zombies right now are not fun at all. It's not "needles pandering" to explain that a self-replicating common enemy can one-shot kill legendary swordsmasters through adamantium full-plate reliably, every time.
i have had people wrapped in iron armor slaughter a horde of zombies...are you sure you didnt just anger the rng gods?
Post by: malvado on August 21, 2015, 12:25:39 pm
i have had people wrapped in iron armor slaughter a horde of zombies...are you sure you didnt just anger the rng gods?
I have had peasants with 250 strenght one shot goblins in one hit to the skull.
I honestly believe something is wrong , but if we are going to have zombies like this in the game I'd like the possibility to adjust their difficulty myself.
Post by: angelious on August 21, 2015, 02:44:54 pm
i have had people wrapped in iron armor slaughter a horde of zombies...are you sure you didnt just anger the rng gods?
I have had peasants with 250 strenght one shot goblins in one hit to the skull.
I honestly believe something is wrong , but if we are going to have zombies like this in the game I'd like the possibility to adjust their difficulty myself.
i dont think i have ever had any dorf with 250 anything since i normally quit my forts the moment i reach year 5.
and i doubt you will see difficulty settings for df anytime soon. so your best bet is to play with the coding...
Post by: ShinQuickMan on August 21, 2015, 07:18:47 pm
Post by: pisskop on August 21, 2015, 07:19:19 pm
Post by: Robsoie on August 21, 2015, 09:56:35 pm
Post by: pisskop on August 21, 2015, 10:07:18 pm
Post by: Robsoie on August 21, 2015, 10:25:54 pm
And that despite they're much smaller than a dwarf.
Hmm, i'll have to try an adventurer with punch/kick skills instead of weapon skills and see if the results are indeed broken.
Post by: Neonivek on August 21, 2015, 11:30:24 pm
Speaking about those lethal punching, i wonder it's not the undead that are overpowered silly but something that is just broken with punch&kicks. On the battle logs i often see someone punching an armored guy and the part hit collapsing, and those are common guys, not superdwarven or undead things.
It all boils down to the fact that a chipped bone generally knocks you out. The game cannot tell the difference between a hairline fracture, something people often don't notice, versus having your bone suddenly shatter.
Heck it isn't unusual for people to break bones without noticing (ribs is a common one).
---
Though I am glad more people are suggesting that nerfs to Zombies come in the "generally make them not so overwhelmingly amazing" versus the "Lets make them slow, clumsy, boring husks that shamble towards you"
Not that I am against Shamblers... But that DFs "Undead are an improvement over the original" is rather unique.
Heck I wouldn't mind Shamblers in addition, though they would be pointlessly fodderish.
Post by: Chevaleresse on August 22, 2015, 04:52:06 am
Post by: Geltor on August 25, 2015, 03:30:39 am
Post by: quekwoambojish on August 25, 2015, 10:34:33 am
1. the ability for night creatures/undead to detect anything, and have significantly increased stats
2. the weird ability for stuff to punch/kick/bite through anything especially with night creature/undead stats
3. the escalated effectiveness of wrestling due to increased night creature/undead stats
4. the raw punishment an undead unit can take
5. necromancers
It gets silly. I fully encourage Toady to release more challenging content for DF players, but I find it hard to believe that necromancers should be able to summon an army of demi god equivalents with the flick of a wrist and small pet cemetery.
Maybe make some forms of wandering undead really really strong, being infused with some demon god's hatred, or maybe an undead kings guard (you get the idea)...But these necromancers man, some are ex-cheese makers you're talking about.
Post by: pisskop on August 25, 2015, 10:36:20 am
You can sneak up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146523.msg5874677#msg5874677) on undead towers.
video 2 showcases that. Well, it showcases how smoke breaks their detection. I snuck up on them to lay down the fire.
Post by: ZM5 on August 26, 2015, 06:14:55 am
Have the current insanely powerful zombies be found in the HFS as some type of Doom-style zombie thats more like a possessed human than an actual zombie (but showing some unnatural features, i.e glowing eyes of various colors, pale skin and hair, runes on the body) and maybe have them be not randomly spawned per-se but give them names of historical figures. Also make them MUCH fewer in number.
Husks/thralls should remain as is.
The weaker zombies should be the ones raised by necros. They should have slightly enhanced strength but only that, they should be really slow and also only be able to see via what remains of their eyes instead of having the extravision tag (or an altered variation that doesn't give them wallhacks). That said, they should have some different variations as well. Fresh corpses would obviously be stronger than decayed ones due to still having muscles and whatnot, also because the necromancer would divert less of their magic to keep them from falling apart. Then there would be skeletons which obviously would be the weakest.
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 26, 2015, 07:52:18 am
Post by: quekwoambojish on August 26, 2015, 09:38:21 am
1 doesnt happen. With the exception of mummies, who hone in on desecrators.
You can sneak up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146523.msg5874677#msg5874677) on undead towers.
video 2 showcases that. Well, it showcases how smoke breaks their detection. I snuck up on them to lay down the fire.
Interesting, I'll have to try this thanks!
I don't entirely know what you mean by 1 doesn't happen though? I have snuck into a necro tower before without disturbing and zombies, but there's 2 I've been re-attempting recently, and they start chasing me from a fair distance away....I was thinking it maybe had to do with what you said here,
"It appears to not be an infinite range for spotting you, its just that the initial plop-in from fast travel leaves in in terrible sneaking position"
Can you elaborate for me please?
Post by: pisskop on August 26, 2015, 01:19:19 pm
I dont think undead actually 'see', but the darker it is the closer to the ground you are, the more veggitation there is, and the better your skill is the easier it is. You will need some sneak skill to get too close to the tower, but with sufficient skill you can get to the door with no problem.
Post by: ZM5 on August 26, 2015, 02:01:52 pm
The zombies, as they are, act more like revenants, in terms of raw capabilities, than zombies. You could essentially just change the name and then put in a new version of the zombie that more closely matches a zombie.
That'd be a good solution as well IMO.
I feel the biggest problem with current zombies is that they come in massive numbers, too much for being so powerful. I normally don't mind a lack of balance in games like this, but, it's really not fun even in the DF sense of the word when you randomly get one shot because a zombie falcon punches your brain out of your skull. Especially after you've already killed 50 zombies and still had 50 more to go. Splitting them into different variants would probably be the best way to balance this.
"Revenant" undead should be rare, not as much as thralls/husks but still rare enough so when you see one you go "oh crap".
Regular zombies should be slightly stronger than an average member of their race but not enough to be able to punch through steel helms just with their bare hands.
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 27, 2015, 07:56:08 am
The zombies, as they are, act more like revenants, in terms of raw capabilities, than zombies. You could essentially just change the name and then put in a new version of the zombie that more closely matches a zombie.
That'd be a good solution as well IMO.
I feel the biggest problem with current zombies is that they come in massive numbers, too much for being so powerful. I normally don't mind a lack of balance in games like this, but, it's really not fun even in the DF sense of the word when you randomly get one shot because a zombie falcon punches your brain out of your skull. Especially after you've already killed 50 zombies and still had 50 more to go. Splitting them into different variants would probably be the best way to balance this.
"Revenant" undead should be rare, not as much as thralls/husks but still rare enough so when you see one you go "oh crap".
Regular zombies should be slightly stronger than an average member of their race but not enough to be able to punch through steel helms just with their bare hands.
I think Toady has talked about Revenants before, and how giving them specific tasks and goals -because revenants exist because they want something - was something he'd have to look at.
As for zombies, I think if they were toned down and still came in their giant hoardes, thatd'd be fine. You don't even have to mnake them strong, their whole schtick is that they are slow, stupid, falling apart, and there are more of them than you have bullets/bolts/arrows/bodies for. They are attrition made flesh, so to speak. Albeit the flesh is falling onto the floor in maggot-eaten chunks.
Post by: ZM5 on August 27, 2015, 03:40:53 pm
I think Toady has talked about Revenants before, and how giving them specific tasks and goals -because revenants exist because they want something - was something he'd have to look at.I haven't actually seen that post but that sounds like an interesting idea.
As for zombies, I think if they were toned down and still came in their giant hoardes, thatd'd be fine. You don't even have to mnake them strong, their whole schtick is that they are slow, stupid, falling apart, and there are more of them than you have bullets/bolts/arrows/bodies for. They are attrition made flesh, so to speak. Albeit the flesh is falling onto the floor in maggot-eaten chunks.
To be fair though, that sounds a bit like it'd be more quest material in the sense that you could help the revenant achieve their goal to put them to rest, instead of being the target of "there's a undead monster somewhere in the jungles of clenching; it's big, deadly, and totally awesome, GO KILL IT" type quests. So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.
To be honest, I didn't make the exact distinction at first as the only types of revenants I'm familiar with are the ones from Warcraft and Mortal Kombat, neither of which are the "classic" depiction of being undead with a purpose.
As for regular zombies, I do agree they should come in large numbers (despite the lag, but I suppose that is inevitable - oh God I said it), that's a basic principle of zombies, they just shouldn't be AS strong as they are now, maybe only slightly stronger than a generic human/elf/dwarf/goblin so they wouldn't be entirely useless against armored adventurers, but also not having the power of a jackhammer in each limb.
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 28, 2015, 07:56:23 am
I think it came up in a DF talk ages ago, and there might be something on the 'long-arse list of stuff we'd like to code' page. Yeah, they should definitely be toned way down. Especially when you've got things like autonomous undead rat skins with the power of ten thousand enraged elephants. I don't know if the power is constrained based on mass or something? I might be vastly underestimating how in depth the undead physics are, but I'd assume it'd just be 'take dead thing's dealiness and times by the mass of the sun, on ressurection.'
Post by: ZM5 on August 28, 2015, 02:47:37 pm
Especially when you've got things like autonomous undead rat skins with the power of ten thousand enraged elephants.That's a sentence I never thought I'd ever hear or read. Only in DF...
Mind if I sig it?
On a more serious note, I assume that's a glitch, as I've never seen skins ever do any amount of damage.
Post by: WordsandChaos on August 29, 2015, 03:59:18 am
Yeah I haven't played in a while, but random dismembered bits of undead can do some surprising damage...
Post by: MobRules on September 01, 2015, 01:24:29 pm
So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.
Having a purpose doesn't mean they're always easily skippable. Sure, sometimes you might be able to help one out. But they might not always able and/or willing to communicate what they need to accomplish, might not always be interested in your aid, and might have goals diametrically opposed to your own.
(In fact, it sets up the possibility of something you kill coming back at a future date as a revenant with an agenda against you, personally, and hungry for revenge.)
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 01, 2015, 02:40:24 pm
Post by: ZM5 on September 02, 2015, 01:19:21 am
So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.
Having a purpose doesn't mean they're always easily skippable. Sure, sometimes you might be able to help one out. But they might not always able and/or willing to communicate what they need to accomplish, might not always be interested in your aid, and might have goals diametrically opposed to your own.
(In fact, it sets up the possibility of something you kill coming back at a future date as a revenant with an agenda against you, personally, and hungry for revenge.)
True, I suppose. The idea with people raising from the dead to kill your adventurer in revenge would be awesome though, would probably discourage random killing sprees because a bunch of powerful revenants may come your way...but perhaps that would encourage those sprees even more.
One thing I would consider is if there were - wait, that's just husks and thralls! Those and zombies need to be separated more.
I agree on that. I think husks/thralls should remain as is though - powerful, rare undead creatures - because as I and other people have been suggesting its mostly zombies that need changing.
Slightly off-topic, but I would like seeing other types of evil weather that result in different creatures that aren't necessarily undead - mutants or the like who aren't completely mindless but can still be agressive.
Post by: pisskop on September 02, 2015, 01:44:23 am
besides, ive been under the impressions that thralls are necessarily 'dead' so much as 'souless biomass that murderizes'
Post by: ZM5 on September 02, 2015, 08:07:39 am
thralls in 40 are about as dangerous as undead in 34, and undead in 40 are more like thralls in 34.Are they? Basing on the interaction examples raws they seem basically the same, stat-wise.
besides, ive been under the impressions that thralls are necessarily 'dead' so much as 'souless biomass that murderizes'
Lore-wise, don't really know. I was under the impression that by "soulless, lifehating biomass" they're more or less an undead offshot. Basically like the Resident Evil zombies - not "true" undead, but not truly living either.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 02, 2015, 01:15:25 pm
I'm pretty sure it's hard coded right now. The only thing I can say to change is to go into Advanced Worldgen and take away the Secrets, since those create Necromancers in the first place.But then again, it's extremely easy to avoid them in the first place. The only way to encounter zombies is to willingly embark near or adventure towards a tower.
We could have 3 kinds of zombies, though. We could have husks which are still husks, but the current zombies should be called "Damned Dead" or something of the sort and have those reside within carnival spires, while the 34.11 undead which were still pretty damn deadly could be the default for necromancers and mummies. Maybe the normal undead could have different strength bonuses depending on if they still have a majority of their flesh and muscle-mass or not. (Looking at you, tombs.)
Reposting because it's still relevant.
Post by: Chevaleresse on September 02, 2015, 10:48:17 pm
Post by: Borge on January 18, 2016, 07:27:13 pm
Post by: Salmeuk on January 19, 2016, 05:08:39 am
It's happening!!!
There is something oddly satisfying about an OP returning to his year-old complaint thread (and what a valid complaint it was), having received his due.
Also,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on January 19, 2016, 05:16:40 am
It's happening!!! (http://puu.sh/gXnys.webm)
Post by: quekwoambojish on January 19, 2016, 12:57:51 pm
It's happening!!!
I still can't believe how many people were trying to pull the "Oh but undead are better/make more sense as god-slayers!"..."Just look, all you have to do is *MANY OBSCURE TECHNIQUES IN FULL ARMOR* and you've got a 50/50 chance!"
...I swear, if Toady accidentally made flowers land mines, a decent chunk of the community would believe it's a feature and a completely normal/reasonable way of life.
Post by: Moonshadow101 on January 19, 2016, 02:49:46 pm
It's happening!!!
I still can't believe how many people were trying to pull the "Oh but undead are better/make more sense as god-slayers!"..."Just look, all you have to do is *MANY OBSCURE TECHNIQUES IN FULL ARMOR* and you've got a 50/50 chance!"
...I swear, if Toady accidentally made flowers land mines, a decent chunk of the community would believe it's a feature and a completely normal/reasonable way of life.
"All Dwarves have incredibly severe pollen allergies. That's just canon, and you're an idiot for suggesting otherwise."
Post by: Broseph Stalin on January 28, 2016, 03:38:40 pm
There was a brief period in DF 2012 where adventure mode was impossible because almost every step you took started an ambush. A lot of people were of the opinion that this was just making the game more "fun" or even "realistic" and insisted that everybody else just needed to man up.
I still can't believe how many people were trying to pull the "Oh but undead are better/make more sense as god-slayers!"..."Just look, all you have to do is *MANY OBSCURE TECHNIQUES IN FULL ARMOR* and you've got a 50/50 chance!"
...I swear, if Toady accidentally made flowers land mines, a decent chunk of the community would believe it's a feature and a completely normal/reasonable way of life.
It's not unique to dwarf fortress though, hell it's not even unique to games. When you go to any forum for a thing there are people who will insist beyond all reason that everything is perfect. Like go to the forum for a piece of software and I'd say about half of all responses are telling people what assholes they are for daring to question the developers.
Post by: Calidovi on January 30, 2016, 02:55:57 pm
There was a brief period in DF 2012 where adventure mode was impossible because almost every step you took started an ambush. A lot of people were of the opinion that this was just making the game more "fun" or even "realistic" and insisted that everybody else just needed to man up.
I still can't believe how many people were trying to pull the "Oh but undead are better/make more sense as god-slayers!"..."Just look, all you have to do is *MANY OBSCURE TECHNIQUES IN FULL ARMOR* and you've got a 50/50 chance!"
...I swear, if Toady accidentally made flowers land mines, a decent chunk of the community would believe it's a feature and a completely normal/reasonable way of life.
It's not unique to dwarf fortress though, hell it's not even unique to games. When you go to any forum for a thing there are people who will insist beyond all reason that everything is perfect. Like go to the forum for a piece of software and I'd say about half of all responses are telling people what assholes they are for daring to question the developers.
DF manages to gather so much rabid teeth-gnashing because a lot of people consider it to be a 'sekrit club' of sorts.
Post by: Chevaleresse on January 30, 2016, 08:43:39 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on January 31, 2016, 04:52:07 am
Thralls and mummies are still deadly; they're essentially .40 zombies but only form from evil clouds or in tombs, respectively.
Post by: Putnam on January 31, 2016, 05:02:04 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on January 31, 2016, 05:28:26 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 31, 2016, 05:51:31 pm
...I swear, if Toady accidentally made flowers land mines, a decent chunk of the community would believe it's a feature and a completely normal/reasonable way of life.Not gonna lie, that sounds like awesome idea for evil biomes. You pick up a flower, hear a click and BOOM, melting slime in your face.
Post by: ZM5 on March 31, 2016, 06:23:25 pm
I've seen zombies take arrows that merely tear the stomach and such, and they get "shot and killed" even though they are still in usable condition and can be raised again immediately.
Also, in the previous version you'd have to sever the head and the arms or hands for a zombie to be rendered unusable without pulping it - now I noticed if you sever just the head or just one arm/hand they go down, although they can be raised again immediately, unless they're already missing both of the other "required" parts.
I'm confused, since I'm not sure if these are bugs or balancing features.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on April 02, 2016, 11:14:32 pm
Post by: Urlance Woolsbane on April 02, 2016, 11:38:29 pm
Post by: pisskop on April 03, 2016, 02:57:01 am
youll accept that skeletal harpies can fly but not dodge?
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on April 03, 2016, 07:22:19 pm
Post by: Calidovi on April 18, 2016, 05:59:28 pm
this sounds awful.
youll accept that skeletal harpies can fly but not dodge?
how do you fly with bone wings and no membrane/feathers
walking is a different thing entirely, your skeleton can stand if poised properly with locked joints
Post by: pisskop on April 18, 2016, 06:00:43 pm
But Id drop the skeletal fliers before the the dodgers.
All in all, I assume husks are still badass