Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: WanderingKid on August 09, 2013, 04:37:23 am
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So, I've completed, and finally worked out the kinks, for an injury free multi-cart single track minecart system that requires no power whatsoever. My personal philosophy is that dorfs should only get injured when I tell them to or because they're idiots, not because of fortress design. I'm relatively proud of the overall design and figured I'd share it with anyone else interested in trying to get a lot of ore down to the magma sea.
Before you ask, yes, I'm familiar that by the time I was done with this thing it's probably about as complex to bring magma up... but that was before I had to fight with the cart return separation system, which took about half the design time of this process while I learned what worked and what didn't. I've got bits and pieces of this thing all over the forums, too, as I asked for help in different places, thanks to all. I'm not sure how much of it sunk in, particularly about speed mechanics and corner turn teleportation... but thank you for trying.
So, this system comes in six and a half parts:
1) Staging Area & Track Combination
2) Drop Chute and Catch Rail
3) Dump at magma forges track route and prep to begin imulse elevation
4) Impulse Elevators A, B, and C, necessary because of lack of cavern 'dead space' overlaps.
5) Cart Return System
5a) Cart Holding Loop
6) A touch of dwarven labor
If you're intending to follow this system, I recommend using wooden minecarts to speed up step 6. Also, make sure to re-designate all tracks as Restricted instead of Low, or it's possible your beards will decide the cart system is a GREAT way to walk down to wherever you're dropping things off at.
Staging Area & Track Combination:
This part is relatively simple, so I'll also describe my routes here. Each route on the system is a single stop route, the origination. It is attached to the nearby stockpile and set to haul ores, which the stockpile is also set to, as well as having 3 wheelbarrows. The hauling stops are set to push east at 75% full, because every now and then one of my bearded dunderheads sticks the wheelbarrow in the minecart along with the ore. The system cycles fast enough that 4 vs 5 ores in the cart is not a concern. I've yet to see a full stockpile for any cart except when I stopped the system for tweaking.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/StagingArea.jpg~original)
First thing I hoped you noticed is the floodgates blocking the rails. They're attached to the lever below. When building the cart return system, it can be a bit finicky. You'll want a way to shut the entire system down with a single lever, then forbid the carts so you don't keep getting push/place orders while you adjust your design once they're in their storage. It also helps for when you make a slight error and have to shut the system down to retreive an errant cart from the system.
Now, rather rarely you get a bit of a collision on these rails, when two carts try to go at once. It's ignorable. The carts are moving slowly enough that they just bounce, a dorf heads over, grabs the stuck cart, sticks it back on the stop, and shoves it again for a retry. They all feed directly into the drop chute, which is a 3x3 area I was able to find that penetrates all 3 cavern layers without opening me up to cavern critters in the system. While dropping minecarts onto the heads of flying FBs sounded amusing, maybe next time.
If you don't have a direct hole to a few levels above your magma forge you can Drop Chute->Catch Ramp->Drop Chute as necessary. I wouldn't bother trying to dig out a ramp downwards. Speed goes out of control. A drop chute drops 9Zs every 5 tics at terminal velocity for a wooden minecart, doesn't spill its contents on landing, and is the fastest way down without building significant infrastructure. Once a miner starts channeling, though, he's stuck. Make sure you're accurate with this part.
Drop Chute and Catch Rail
The Drop Chute itself is nothing special. It's an endless hole, dug by channeling straight down. The interesting part of the Drop Chute is the catch ramp.
At terminal velocity, the minecart is teleporting over squares completely. This means when it gets to the ground, a single square ramp may not endow motion to your minecart, as it'll 'teleport' down the ramp, hit the flat track next to it, and stop dead like it was still falling straight down. Bit wierd, but there ya go.
On a catch ramp, you make sure that one way or another it stops on a ramp, and gets a good head of steam to work with to get to where you want it.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/OreDump_DropChute_Catcher.jpg~original)
The yellow X here shows you where the drop chute comes down. The ramp at Z-14 is usually ignored in my system, and it 'catches' at Z-15, where it acts like it had 0 speed and just started midramp. Z-16 simply gives it a bit of steam, and Z-17 starts my delivery tracks to the magma forges.
Magma Forge Delivery and Impulse Prep
Impulse Elevators don't take a lot of work, per se, to setup, but sometimes you gotta get where you want to start them, and that can be trickier.
The design here is relatively simplistic and won't take long to cover. The big thing is after the catch ramp you'll need some gentle braking or you're going to be derailing on down-ramps.
First we enter at the top of this diagram, heading east, from the drop chute:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/DeliveryArea_Z1.jpg~original)
There's two track stops to act as brakes here to keep the system under control, otherwise at the next down ramp after making the turn the system stalls out when it derails, hits the wall, and then drops down onto the ramp to continue. It's faster to slow the cart down. The high then the medium give it just enough 'tug' to get the cart back under control.
It drops down to the magma forge layer:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/DeliveryArea_Z0.jpg~original)
This is about as simple as it gets. Quantum Storage the ore in a small hole in the wall and pop up the ramp at the bottom back up to Z+1 from the forges.
At Z+1, we've entered the lower portion of this and we're heading north. Because of the brakes applied earlier, an impulse ramp was needed here to get up the next ramp to get over the drop chute run, so I could start impulse elevator A where I desired.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/DeliveryArea_Z1.jpg~original)
The next level up is simply a feeder to where I wanted to start the impulse elevator.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/DeliveryArea_Z2.jpg~original)
Impulse Elevator A, B, and C
My research into impulse elevators is most easily found in another thread where there's a lot of information about what I tried, how I tried it, what worked, and what didn't. Here I'm simply going to describe how the system works correctly.
The build order is: Flat Turn, Impulse Ramp, Upward Curving Ramp, Upward Straight Ramp, repeat as a mirror. Phoebeus isn't great for showing directions on ramps, but I'll indicate what's what. The walls don't have to be constructed, they're leftovers from some failed attempts when I tried to mirror the wiki. Where you see constructed walls you can just leave the base rock.
At level 0, you begin the process:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseRamp_Example_Z0.jpg~original)
On level 1, you have two things. First, a rocking horse shunt, to get the cart off the rails and stop in case something goes wrong. Also, a simple upwards ramp to burn off the impulse turn's energy.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseRamp_Example_Z1.jpg~original)
Level 2 is a mirror of 0, just reversed:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseRamp_Example_Z2.jpg~original)
Level 3 is a mirror of 1
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseRamp_Example_Z3.jpg~original)
Continue process until reaching desired height. Once you've gotten there, it will depend on if you're on an even, or an odd, level, which will determine if you've burned off the speed from the impulse turn yet or not. When you've burned off the speed, you can land it like I did after Impulse A:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseLanding_A.jpg~original)
The turn is required, otherwise the cart skids to a stop. The turn re-rails the cart from the skid and it can proceed properly.
If you're on an odd level, like I did for the Impulse Elevator B landing, you have to get a Track Stop involved before your curve to get the cart back under derail speeds, or it will ignore the turn and you may have significant problems.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/ImpulseLanding_B.jpg~original)
The elevators are simply long. Impulse Elevator B is my longest one, 99 Z levels high. Impulse C is simply a feeder up past the last cavern layer right where I start the drop area. I'd thought I'd left too much room, but found I'd actually made my life a little easier. I hadn't realized I'd want a holding pattern loop yet.
Cart Return System
Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit proud of this system. What it does is let you return x # of carts (5 in this case) onto different tracks dependent on if the return track is already occupied. It only looks complicated, I promise.
This picture should look familiar from earlier, but it's a bit expanded to show the return rails:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/Rail_Return_Final.jpg~original)
You'll notice that they run into walls. This is necessary, as you can't build a track stop AND a pressure plate in the same location. The walls stop the carts just fine, and allow for us to use a pressure plate. Due to that, this system works. First, let me show you what it looks like so you can envision what I'm describing:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/CartSplitter_Z-1.jpg~original)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/GUDare/Dwarf%20Fortress/CartSplitter_Z-2.jpg~original)
Those are Impulse Ramps after the hatches to give the carts a boost to get up the ramp to the delivery level.
Ignore the Holding Loop for the moment, I'll explain that in a bit. First, the cart return system is merely a zig-zag track with a lot of bells and whistles attached to it. On a longer system, or better timed, bridges could be used here to control track access instead of the system I've designed. The problem is the 100 tic delay was just too long and I started getting lane stacks which could endanger my haulers, particularly if a lane left a cart down in the splitter system. I needed a system with more immediate response time.
The next problem is I needed something that would allow access when in the 'off' state, and disallow it when on... such as when a cart was sitting on the pressure plate. Doors, floodgates... none of these were helpful. Hatches, however, can cover a track and allow access, and then allow access to a downramp when activated. They were nearly immediate, but I'd have to design a down-z loop to handle that. During testing, I found that the high-speed turnaround here would derail the cart at an angle when it came back up to the zig-zag level, making the system useless. Pushing the down-z loop out an extra square and staggering the turns allowed me to use a wall to correct the diagonal, and the carts were going along happily again.
The final problem is all this zig-zag and rerails really take its toll on a cart, particular with turn friction. I needed a booster after the second U-turn to keep it from getting stuck between sections on the down-z lane changes. It had barely enough oomph. This is one of those places that I'd probably have used roller power for a more controlled boost instead of a ramp, but I was determined at this point to make it work without any power... and it does.
The problem is this system is FAST. Quite often I'd have carts playing follow the leader onto track one, still causing the exact same issue I avoided using bridges for. It was quicker, I had less problems, but it didn't remove all the issues.
Enter the holding loop.
Holding Loop
The holding loop works because a hatch opens instantly, but only closes 100 tics (or so) after the plate releases. So, along the track entering the zig-zag, I built a plate directly behind a trapdoor, which leads to a very simple loop that returns the cart back into the system to try again if it's following one ahead of it too closely. All my carts 'land' within 100 tics of passing the hatch that controls it's allowance, so a 100 tic separator is plenty for my purposes. While designing it, I figured out if you can never seem to get a cart out of your holding loop, you've overloaded the # of carts on your system. Forbid a few until it can clear.
The problem with the holding loop is that if you don't get it quite right, you end up either too fast (and thus jump the down ramps for track selection) or too slow (and jam up the entire damned system). This is where it gets finicky. In my particular system, I needed two medium friction track stops to keep carts at roughly the same speed they entered the system in. That loop could be more contained, I suppose, by adding in zigzags instead of the long running road, but I wasn't sure what I was dealing with and wanted room to work. I'm sure someone with enough interest will eventually fine tune it to the degree of '14 turns, 32 straights, 1 wall, and a slow track stop' but that's not me. I can barely understand half the stuff they're talking about when they're trying to describe cart mechanics on tracks at the dwarven physics level.
A little dwarven labor
You'll notice this system is incomplete. No cart actually returns to its start. That's where your dorfs come in. They swing over to the cart return system, grab a cart, bring it to the beginning, and start again. This takes very little time with wooden carts, and what feels like years with a metal one. One note about this. Every now and then your beards will think the cart belongs in a stockpile. Build a nearby one so they don't go wandering off through your fort with a cart you need nearby.
System Testing Made Easy
Once you've got a single cart able to go through your system you need to be able to test all your ramps for possible speed loss. There's an easy way to do this. Get all your carts prepped on their start locations, let them fill with the floodgates down, then forbid them all. Release the floodgates so the tracks are open. Unforbid the first cart, let it run through the system, then forbid it when it lands on the pressure plate. It'll stay there without being picked up. Repeat for carts 2 through X, and adjust as necessary.
If a cart slips the tracks or has issues, drop the floodgates. My biggest issue when a cart ran out of speed was it'd bounce between one down-z lane changer and another one. To get it to release, unforbid the cart in front of it in line, so the hatch pops back up when the cart is returned to its starting location. The problem cart will settle down eventually and you'll be able to go in and get it. The final delivery system is a bit finicky, as I mentioned, and will take a little adjustment depending on your particular final design.
If you found this helpful, if you have comments, or just generally want to tell me I wasted a few hours putting this together, let me know. Thanks for reading through this.
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Nice work! Very well-written guide, too. I'm curious, have you tried stacking minecarts for a cart return system? I've noticed in my own little experiments that if a minecart falls on another, it floats on top of it. If you drop in more minecarts, all but the original cart pile up on the second level, "quantum stockpile" style. If you send in a dwarf to carry off the bottom cart, just one floating cart falls down to fill the vacuum, apparently without chance of falling on the dwarf. It seems like it could make for an safe, unlimited capacity return system, but I haven't had an occasion to test it.
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Thank you for this, my dream of an automated mine cart obsidian caster can now be realized using your multi cart return system (to deliver the obsidian to different squares)
I have a similar system to yours except that I'm bringing magma to the surface (well 10 z levels in the sky) instead of bringing ore down.
I know you aren't using any power, but I found the best way to stop carts and have them travel quickly was to drop them straight down vertically and land on a roller.
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<deep voice>
Impressive.
Most Impressive.
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<deep voice>
Impressive.
Most Impressive.
Yeah. This is some quality engineering.
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This is a masterful dwarven elevator.
All engineering is of the highest quality.
Well done.
Though I'd try building pressure plates linked to track-selection hatch all along the path instead of holding loop. So that the firs cart would send the next ones immediately onto next path instead of loop.
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Good stuff. I'm astonished that falling minecarts can actually be caught in such a way that they keep hold of their contents, nicely engineered there.
I also find it interesting that you came up with similar features for controlling up-moving minecarts that i ended up using as well, like the corner directly behind the up-ramp, and encountered (and conquered) problems i'm all too familiar with like unexpected derailing and diagonal movement.
I particularly like the 'go to first open station' switch, that's an elegant use of the possibilities minecart processing offers, without branching off into alternative logics. It's a bit of a shame dwarfs will only ever accept one cart per route, so returning carts directly to their loading stations would have required weight-sensitive switches and different-weight carts. The switch logic wouldn't have been much different, though.
I know i'll just stick with straight downward ramps and the plain two-wide ramp elevator. They take little engineering, just the occasional speed limiter when going down and an eye for viable paths. But it's nice to see what can be done with a bit of dedication.
@Di: the problem is that a pressure plate along the track only sends a 'pulse', an open signal followed by a close 100 steps later. An immediately following cart will get switched to another station, one that follows after 100+ steps will not get switched. For a properly 'held' switch you need a pressure plate on which the cart _stands_.
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Nice work! Very well-written guide, too. I'm curious, have you tried stacking minecarts for a cart return system? I've noticed in my own little experiments that if a minecart falls on another, it floats on top of it. If you drop in more minecarts, all but the original cart pile up on the second level, "quantum stockpile" style.
According to the minecart wiki, it's been noted that carts can get 'stuck' when quantum stockpiled this way. I wanted to avoid this so I could have a system that could be left completely unattended.
Thank you for this, my dream of an automated mine cart obsidian caster can now be realized using your multi cart return system (to deliver the obsidian to different squares)
That sounds quite interesting. Hopefully you'll share some ideas from that inspiration. :)
Though I'd try building pressure plates linked to track-selection hatch all along the path instead of holding loop. So that the firs cart would send the next ones immediately onto next path instead of loop.
The problem with this is you can't trust dwarven labor. They get to the cart when they get to it. Under normal load, only the first two rails on the return system are usually used, but I've seen 4 carts in the return quite often and occassionally 5. The dorfs reset them pretty quickly, but they also load fast. If you have the plate on the path, you only have 100 tics worth of safety on that particular rail return, and that just isn't enough. You need the particular return line permanently unavailable until the dorf gets the cart clear, or you end up with activation issues.
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I'm impressed with cart return system, it's pretty dwarf-proof at their speed :D
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One thing I should probably mention. In my fort, the magma forges are roughly ~150 steps from the ore layer by main stairwell. In 4 years I moved about 10 pages of ore (seen via (k)) to a quantum stockpile down there before I realized I needed this system. This system has matched it in roughly 1 year, and that was shutdown for approximately half of the year for tweaking the cart returns at varying points. I can't give you exact numbers but it has sped ore delivery by an exponential factor, not simply a multiplier, so it was definately time well spent.
I've got a LOT of ore.
Good stuff. I'm astonished that falling minecarts can actually be caught in such a way that they keep hold of their contents, nicely engineered there.
Thank you. I was surprised too so my first tests were centered around filling carts with various things and dropping them down the hole to see what fell out. So far, nothing has.
I particularly like the 'go to first open station' switch, that's an elegant use of the possibilities minecart processing offers, without branching off into alternative logics. It's a bit of a shame dwarfs will only ever accept one cart per route, so returning carts directly to their loading stations would have required weight-sensitive switches and different-weight carts. The switch logic wouldn't have been much different, though.
Yeah, I debated on going with the weight processing, and would merely require using an 'allowed' switch in front of a drop hatch that ran directly to the landing and keeping the zig-zag on a single Z. I decided to KISS the system first, then perhaps come back to that idea in another fort.
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Would it be too much to ask for a download?
I need to see use this!
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As requested:
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7893 (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7893)
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A note from further testing for full disclosure:
There is something off in the timing in this system. I'm not entirely sure what's causing it but if four carts go into the system too close to each other, the last cart ends up practically flying out of the final elevator. I find myself having to 'drop in' on the system occassionally to double check that nothing's gone wrong.
It happens maybe once a dwarven year, but it's worth noting for full disclosure. My guess is it's something to do with the drop chute ending up with a quantum stack, and a falling cart bumping a stuck one and it going to higher speeds than the system expects, but I haven't been able to catch it in the act when the over-speeding starts. It could be on one of the breaking areas too, where a cart is being bumped over the brakes. I have yet to have a cart stuck IN the system, just in the minecart delivery area, but it's worth noting.
Because of this I'd be wary of using more than 5 carts in any multi-cart system that includes a drop chute. At 6 carts I nearly trebled the occurences of carts lost in the cart return system because of this issue.
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Just a note on dwarves pathing into the inner workings, wouldn't it be possible to prevent it by including smaller 1 or two z seclusion drops in one or two places so they cannot form a path into the cut off areas? Then you can just limit access with a door to specific sections and have nothing but any flyer's try to path up through it, instead of having to restrict everything.
Would make the process take slightly longer, but it might be safer for those who are lazy with restrictions.
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Absolutely. As a pathing deterrent, that would definately work during the return system.
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I have been working on a similar project for a couple days but gave up after only limited success. Maybe it is something you could try if your interested. I was trying to build a minecart system to move magma to the surface that did not need any power. The troubles I had were if I tried to move a minecart through just one square of magma the cart would not fill. The cart may have been moving too fast though. And if you move it through two squares of magma the cart got stuck in the second square. It could be bumped out with another cart however. So I did get it to work but after a few minutes of operation the carts got jammed up and it stopped. I ended up converting it to a powered system because 5 in game years is too long to wait for magma furnaces.
Couple things I found out during testing: High Speed can be reduced easily by dropping it down another 2z lvl drop shoot. Dropping carts down up/down stairs works but you have to start the drop from a floorless square with no stairs in it. I felt like experimenting with a compact design and was able to get the impulse elevator and drop shoot to fit within a 3x3 for most of the journey. Dropping a bridge on an impulse ramp at any zlvl is a very good way to divert the minecarts out of the system if your "launching bay" is not at the top of your build (but now that I am thinking about it, is it possible to extend a bridge into the drop shoot and not slow the carts down to a halt? That way I could get empty carts).
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I have been working on a similar project for a couple days but gave up after only limited success. Maybe it is something you could try if your interested. I was trying to build a minecart system to move magma to the surface that did not need any power. The troubles I had were if I tried to move a minecart through just one square of magma the cart would not fill. The cart may have been moving too fast though. And if you move it through two squares of magma the cart got stuck in the second square.
I have found the same. I've seen some discussion of different techniques used to powerlessly get carts out of the system, but I've found that while they work originally, once flow begins in the fill chute I get inconsistent ability to pull carts out of the process.
It could be bumped out with another cart however. So I did get it to work but after a few minutes of operation the carts got jammed up and it stopped. I ended up converting it to a powered system because 5 in game years is too long to wait for magma furnaces.
Powered seems to be the most effective system for making sure you can retrieve carts. I've debated on a method using magma flow -> Grate -> cart bump -> impulse ramp but the design of it was overkill and still not as consistent as I prefer.
I felt like experimenting with a compact design and was able to get the impulse elevator and drop shoot to fit within a 3x3 for most of the journey. Dropping a bridge on an impulse ramp at any zlvl is a very good way to divert the minecarts out of the system if your "launching bay" is not at the top of your build (but now that I am thinking about it, is it possible to extend a bridge into the drop shoot and not slow the carts down to a halt? That way I could get empty carts).
A bridge in the drop chute won't be useful, the cart will stop dead on the bridge and stay there... or teleport over it, depending on drop speed. A bridge over a corner after the catch ramp is usually your best bet. I would recommend never opening the system up to dwarves while you have carts in motion... unless you're trying to remove some nobles from the population. The impulse elevator does not play nicely without being a sealed system.
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ptw and read again with brain engaged.
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I got a system working, which I proposed earlier, that combines the no-power-required magma trench (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126864.0) and WanderingKid's impulse elevator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=129453.0) version. The carts only fill with magma if the trench is at 7 units, if it's at 5-6, they often (but not alway, I think) come out empty. And they do come out with very little speed if the trench is full, but haven't had carts get stuck down there yet (I do have a pump to empty&evaporate those 4 tiles, just in case, though).
I've been meaning to do a full writeup, but I was trying to get some other rather more important (non-DF) stuff done first, and I wasn't at home the past couple of days, and stuff like that. Still going to do that writeup, but still have more important non-DF stuff I should do first :S
There's also the fact that there's still some kinks in the system, namely that steel minecarts are heavy, whether filled with magma or not, and I was hoping to have my dwarves haul them around in wheelbarrows once I get the magma to the top station of the track station, but they refuse to haul minecarts in wheelbarrows anywhere except to "place track vehicle". Or haul them to furniture-type:minecart stockpiles without wheelbarrows, either. Don't know what's up with that. And guide orders without tracks in between end up with the carts being carried, as well. So now I'm thinking I might have to make it a multi-cart system if I want to lower the amount of micromanagement while increasing throughput, but I'd probably use something more like the delayed-firing system WanderingKid had in his single-pick challenge videos for the "torpedoes" in the minecart grinder. Minecarts on hatches on top of ramps, triggered by the previous minecart going over a pressure plate.
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I got a system working, which I proposed earlier, that combines the no-power-required magma trench (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126864.0) and WanderingKid's impulse elevator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=129453.0) version. The carts only fill with magma if the trench is at 7 units, if it's at 5-6, they often (but not alway, I think) come out empty. And they do come out with very little speed if the trench is full, but haven't had carts get stuck down there yet (I do have a pump to empty&evaporate those 4 tiles, just in case, though).
I'd tried that technique, Snaake, and it didn't work consistently for me, and I ended up with some jams in the system. I'd tried it in a separate fortress when I was goofing off with them. Reverse pathing and bounce out, multi-cart pushing, etc. I'm more than willing to try it again when you get a chance ot finish up your write up, it's possible I missed a nuance.
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Which part jammed, the impulse elevator, the filling trench, or something else?
edit: I have had some kinks myself, but so far no carts stuck in the filling trench or the impulse elevator (a couple stopped on the small piece of track between those due to low speeds on exiting the magma-filler, but I added an impulse ramp since then, and it seems ok). I do need to also do a bit more testing, which should occur if I get the higher throughput worked out somehow.
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Kept losing a cart in the trench.
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This is genius. I don't really know what else to say, that return loop thing blew my mind.
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Kept losing a cart in the trench.
If by "losing" you mean the bug where they still appear in stocks screen, then yea, that's probably because it's being pushed by fluid movement. Which really just sets an upper limit on the throughput you can have, i.e. how often a cart can go into the magma trench, since the trench needs to have time to fill before it's safe for another cart to enter. I did "lose" a couple of minecarts, because I initially tried to use nethercap ones, but while nethercap is magma-safe for pumps etc., if it's submerged in magma it gets destroyed anyhow, since only certain items like anvils and screw pumps can be magma-safe.
Btw, at least for stuff that got "lost" in my river and moat like that, marking for dumping from stocks screen allowed my dwarves to carry them out, even though they were invisible to loo(k). After the river and moat were drained, of course. Or dfhack autodump works too.
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Sorry, misspoke. The carts were jamming up in the trench. Not loss due to bug, I wouldn't blame that on design (and every design seems to get that issue).
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I have a prototype of a completely automatic minecart collection system. It uses a lot of hatches and latches. One latch per minecart minus 1. No need for one for the last cart. Unfortunately latches require a lot of power due to it having 2 pumps and a bunch of gear assembly's per latch. Also I tried to build to too compact and it is completely unreliable because the carts like to jump between tracks when they go over the hatches that are supposed to switch them to the next track. If I rebuild it with walls between the tracks it would work great I think. But it is super dwarfy! Very hard to build. Also I could use a part of your system I don't quite understand. Something about collecting the carts in a loop of track to make sure the gap between them is sufficiently long? :S
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Also I could use a part of your system I don't quite understand. Something about collecting the carts in a loop of track to make sure the gap between them is sufficiently long? :S
The idea, in general, is simple. You need to gap your carts by a minimum of 100 tics. What you do is create a pressure plate to trigger to all carts, and then right in front of it channel a hole in the track and a loop to return the cart back to the route it just came in from. Put a hatch over that hole and link it to the plate.
What happens is cart 1 and 2 are separated by, let's say, 20 tics. The first cart hits the plate, and opens the hatch. Said cart then dives down onto the loop track and eventually gets returned to the track to try again. BEcause a hatch is instant to open but 100 tics to close, you'll always have at least 100 tics between your carts.
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Ahhh I see! For your system that would be crucial due to the inconsistent times of carts coming and going. For the magma run I made sure the carts had a well timed gap when they launched since I launch them all at once so I didn't need the loop. I finally managed to get it to work though! I've got probably 4 IRL days in this thing now lol!
(http://i.imgur.com/2ZN3jJF.png)
An automatic and reliable cart return system that can handle up to 8 carts. It uses a lot of power though. With your loop it could be used for hauling something other than lava though. I'll go start a thread on this. :3
Thread is up! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131686.msg4654476#msg4654476 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131686.msg4654476#msg4654476)
I try my best to explain it. I'll stop derailing your thread now lol! WonderingKid, you helped me quite a bit! I came up with the idea while studying this thread! You deserve credit my friend! Take my ☼Socks☼!
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Ahhh I see! For your system that would be crucial due to the inconsistent times of carts coming and going. For the magma run I made sure the carts had a well timed gap when they launched since I launch them all at once so I didn't need the loop. I finally managed to get it to work though! I've got probably 4 IRL days in this thing now lol!
Quite so. Carts go in when full and a dorf pushes, not via timer, so I had to get the return section a bit more problem-proofed.
An automatic and reliable cart return system that can handle up to 8 carts. It uses a lot of power though. With your loop it could be used for hauling something other than lava though. I'll go start a thread on this. :3
Hrm? What do you have in mind for hauling then? Ore goes down, Magma comes up... ;)
I try my best to explain it. I'll stop derailing your thread now lol! WonderingKid, you helped me quite a bit! I came up with the idea while studying this thread! You deserve credit my friend! Take my ☼Socks☼!
Any thread on Bay12 that's not at least somewhat derailed (and brought back, derails... brought back... ) is a lost and lonely thread left in the barren wastelands on page 20. ;) Besides, I like seeing what this walkthrough inspired. Took me a bit to write it up, it's my payback when I get stuff like this. :D
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Sorry, misspoke. The carts were jamming up in the trench. Not loss due to bug, I wouldn't blame that on design (and every design seems to get that issue).
Hmm, I have never once lost a cart to anything besides dropping a bridge on one once. But I have used pretty much the same design in my last 5 forts and something similar in my latest. All based off of this here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125679.msg4247715#msg4247715