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[Jakkarra]

id say id agree with you On #2 also, kaiosyne, i used to run a D&D game as well, and am Planning a G.U.R.P.S atomic horror campaign too, i love the minutiae of anything, nothing goes as far as DF, but it could go much further, we are, as mentioned, a small minority of people wanting this, but i dont see why others wouldent want this.

anywho, what exact level of detail do we want to delve down to? myself, i dont see a hard-cap on how minute the detail could, Theoretically, go.

Love, jakkarra

[HonkyPunch]

Hmm.
The main thing that turned me off was my own incompetence.
I suppose I got over that, but I just remember dwarf mode seeming to be miles over my head. This isn't a problem, per-say, challenge is a wonderful thing, but it is also a double-edged sword.
On one hand, it will keep more competent people playing, but it may also drive away people who are less than keen on the steep learning curve. (I didn't actually try dwarf mode until the latest update, been playing since 3 ago)
I eventually overcame the difficulty i had by modding the dwarves to not need sleep, food, or water, and slowly re-integrating them until i learned how to meet their needs for each of these obstacles.
Perhaps, if you really want to keep people from leaving because of the difficulty, place difficulty levels?
Although i'm not exactly sure how to, and i think that the problem is more the complexity than actual difficulty.
Maybe a more streamlined UI? It's fine how it is, personally, but yeah.

[george144]

The aforementioned ASII graphics almost made me stop playing when I first picked it up, but I used a graphic pack which I can live with. But the other thing that annoyed me was how often I had to check the dwarfwiki to figure out how to do nearly everything or to figure out what I should do next do stop my dwarfs dying/going mad/ accidentally flooding my own fortress 3 time. perhaps some kind of in game advisor or encyclopaedia of knowledge would be handy where you could quickly get hints on how to do many things.

[Nerserus]

Well, over time, the complication gets worse and worse. And for a while it made me pack in all together. Though a month after i picked it up and learnt it over time. The ASCII, the complication: the Carp pulling dwarves into lakes, the Giant Eagles. Playing it for the first time you get the MOTHER, of all HEADACHES!!!.

Shame it can't be helped. If you ask me, it sorts the rabble from the intelligent gamers.

It takes alot of brain power to survive for ten minutes without going insane, though, when i picked it up again...I liked it. Didn't understand it much. But i liked it. It's like certain music, don't get it, probably never will, but you like it none-the-less.

[Jakkarra]

oddly enough, when i actually started DF, i was perfectly competent straight away, truth be told i did learn the basic UI navigation through the wiki, but ive never lost a fort yet.

am i doing it wrong?

love, jakkarra

[Vilien]

The learning curve is really steep. But that's the only reason that the game is so deep, challenging, and able to keep you interested. It's tough to balance accessibility with interesting features.

[SirPenguin]

The learning curve is steep, but not for the right reasons. The game has some pretty indepth or complicated stuff, but it's not THAT hard to learn.

The reason the learning curve is steep is due to the fact the interface makes even the simplest of actions a pain in the ass.

I also think this notion of "complicated keeps of the riff raff!" is self serving bullshit, as if you're special or even intelligent for learning a needlessly complicated game. Besides, who cares who plays a game? It has no effect on you if even the dumbest person on Earth is a DFer.

Thank god the Tarn brothers don't share that dangerous thinking

[Neonivek]

Whoa someone pinched SirPenguin's Nerve. (though Penguin isn't exactly wrong)

Thank god the Tarn brothers don't share that dangerous thinking

Judging by some of their earlier work they may have once believed in the exact opposite *Joke*

Am I the only one surprised that this thread isn't shut down by Toady for fighting or derailing? (Well Somewhat derailing)

-----------------------------------------------------

Anyhow.... hmmmm...

A "Starting Package" in Dwarf Fortress could help newer players in picking equipment. It gets all the essentials and trained dwarves from the get go.

On the other hand that may be "Playing the game for them" which is a bad thing.

The only reason it didn't bother me when I played was because I was basically married to the Wiki for starting equipment.

[Nerserus]

The learning curve is steep, but not for the right reasons. The game has some pretty indepth or complicated stuff, but it's not THAT hard to learn.

The reason the learning curve is steep is due to the fact the interface makes even the simplest of actions a pain in the ass.

I also think this notion of "complicated keeps of the riff raff!" is self serving bullshit, as if you're special or even intelligent for learning a needlessly complicated game. Besides, who cares who plays a game? It has no effect on you if even the dumbest person on Earth is a DFer.

Thank god the Tarn brothers don't share that dangerous thinking

*Hides behind the sofa as he turns into: THE HULK!*

Also, dude no need to go insane, i was just saying it's great that we don't get random 4Channers coming in shouting over-used memes and posting (ARMOK FORBID) Hentai all over Bay 12. And i do think only intelligent people play Dwarf Fortress. Simply due to the fact anyone who sees the ASCII art gets turned off instantly, and whether you can cope or not is a test in itself if you ask me. You HAVE to admit:

The graphics are terrible, and that is why the game ultimately fails to draw large amounts of players.

I reckon that things are fine the way it is. Some people CAN handle bad graphics. Some can. Also Penguin chill out dude, the game IS complicated, and that is why i like it. It's not one of those games that you pick up, play a minute and go"OH WOOT! I WON...". Dwarf Fortress gets rid of all that and says HEY, YOU WANNA PLAY? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE A GLUTTON FOR PUNISHMENT!

You will die from carp, you will die from hunger, you will die from goblins, you die die die die-die-die, DIE!!!...Though the great reason you come back, is because losing. Is. FUN!

I rest my case.

[Aqizzar]

I also think this notion of "complicated keeps of the riff raff!" is self serving bullshit, as if you're special or even intelligent for learning a needlessly complicated game. Besides, who cares who plays a game? It has no effect on you if even the dumbest person on Earth is a DFer.

Also, dude no need to go insane, i was just saying it's great that we don't get random 4Channers coming in shouting over-used memes and posting (ARMOK FORBID) Hentai all over Bay 12. And i do think only intelligent people play Dwarf Fortress. Simply due to the fact anyone who sees the ASCII art gets turned off instantly, and whether you can cope or not is a test in itself if you ask me. You HAVE to admit:

The graphics are terrible, and that is why the game ultimately fails to draw large amounts of players.

I don't know what forum you've been haning around on, but this one does have 4channers coming in and mucking around (and others acting like rational people) because DF has loads of fans on /tg/.

Really, this faux-elitism that the game's interface and presentation being obtuse and uninviting is some how a net plus or admirable in itself has to stop.  It does no one, not you or anyone, any good to leave a game hard to get in to.  Not least because Toady's income relies on donations - I know you're going to respond with something like "oh right dumb everything down to attract money lol stupid", but no.  I'm saying that means there's nothing wrong with making DF more approachable, and is an incentive to do so.

And I hate to burst your bubble but being willing to climb the UI learning curve does not elevate you a superior level of nerddom.

It's the interface, not the gameplay, that wards off the vast majority of people, and there is no way to argue that an unwieldy interface improves the game or Toady's position in developing it.  Whether that trait improves the "community" of players is your own decision alone, but it says nothing positive about you to support that interpretation.

[codezero]

I'd like to take that a step further and say most people who have been turned off by the graphics or UI actually saw what was under the cover, and thought, for legitimate reasons, nah not worth it. If there was more content and speed, the interface and art would be adequate for more people.

[Nerserus]

I also think this notion of "complicated keeps of the riff raff!" is self serving bullshit, as if you're special or even intelligent for learning a needlessly complicated game. Besides, who cares who plays a game? It has no effect on you if even the dumbest person on Earth is a DFer.

Also, dude no need to go insane, i was just saying it's great that we don't get random 4Channers coming in shouting over-used memes and posting (ARMOK FORBID) Hentai all over Bay 12. And i do think only intelligent people play Dwarf Fortress. Simply due to the fact anyone who sees the ASCII art gets turned off instantly, and whether you can cope or not is a test in itself if you ask me. You HAVE to admit:

The graphics are terrible, and that is why the game ultimately fails to draw large amounts of players.

I don't know what forum you've been haning around on, but this one does have 4channers coming in and mucking around (and others acting like rational people) because DF has loads of fans on /tg/.

Really, this faux-elitism that the game's interface and presentation being obtuse and uninviting is some how a net plus or admirable in itself has to stop.  It does no one, not you or anyone, any good to leave a game hard to get in to.  Not least because Toady's income relies on donations - I know you're going to respond with something like "oh right dumb everything down to attract money lol stupid", but no.  I'm saying that means there's nothing wrong with making DF more approachable, and is an incentive to do so.

And I hate to burst your bubble but being willing to climb the UI learning curve does not elevate you a superior level of nerddom.

It's the interface, not the gameplay, that wards off the vast majority of people, and there is no way to argue that an unwieldy interface improves the game or Toady's position in developing it.  Whether that trait improves the "community" of players is your own decision alone, but it says nothing positive about you to support that interpretation.

Y'know, i've retried writing this post six times to make sure this wouldn't turn into a flame war or taken as a trolling.

The learning curve is steep, but not for the right reasons. The game has some pretty indepth or complicated stuff, but it's not THAT hard to learn.

The reason the learning curve is steep is due to the fact the interface makes even the simplest of actions a pain in the ass.

I also think this notion of "complicated keeps of the riff raff!" is self serving bullshit, as if you're special or even intelligent for learning a needlessly complicated game. Besides, who cares who plays a game? It has no effect on you if even the dumbest person on Earth is a DFer.

Thank god the Tarn brothers don't share that dangerous thinking

All that from one sentence. Now, don't get me wrong. But what is the problem with what i said? I wasn't trolling anyone. I wasn't saying anything. I was complimenting that the game was attracting intelligent people to the game. Why is it, if i say a SINGLE word out of line. The next post is dedicated to saying how wrong i am? If i'm wrong. Just say.

On a constructive note:

I came back to the game ( And it wasn't appealing at first, that is my opinion ) if you can't accept at first i didn't like it. Simply don't speak to me if you hate me that much, but please don't interupt a thread to tell me how much you did not like the statement, for the sake of everyone else, not me. I do not intend to be an ass-hole, if that is the way i appear, ignore me.
Let's get back to topic...

[ToonyMan]

When I first played Dwarf Fortress I played it for 2 days, then stopped.  I started playing it a month later and then never stopped.

[Aqizzar]

Shame it can't be helped. If you ask me, it sorts the rabble from the intelligent gamers.

Okay, I'll say it.  Are you wrong?  Yes, you're wrong.  You called people who are turned away by interface problems "rabble", which is an insult any way you slice it.  You're qualifying people as intelligent by whether they're willing to surmount that, I would argue needlessly, high learning curve.

Remember this always, for future discussion of the sort.  There is no element of gameplay whose acceptance by a person can mark them as intelligent or not.  Trying to extrapolate that fallacious principle to include yourself and exclude others in a group considered desirous is bigotry of interest.  And even if a trait is demonstrably true (to the extent that something as nebulous and emotionally charged as 'intelligence' can be), pointing out a lack of such desirable traits is still an insult.

I'm willing to concede that this response is needless fighting, but I'm saying this to everyone who has held or espoused such a view about game design.

[Hydra]

Really, this faux-elitism that the game's interface and presentation being obtuse and uninviting is some how a net plus or admirable in itself has to stop.  It does no one, not you or anyone, any good to leave a game hard to get in to.  Not least because Toady's income relies on donations - I know you're going to respond with something like "oh right dumb everything down to attract money lol stupid", but no.  I'm saying that means there's nothing wrong with making DF more approachable, and is an incentive to do so.

Well, I guess if the UI was excellent and the graphics were a retro-but-cute 2D, toady would become so insanely rich he'd just pack up and head off to live on some tropical island