Is the setup closed or open?Closed. Added the possible roles to the first post. The Cop and Doctor are in their standard variant.
Or, what are the possible roles?
May I join? I was recommended to this forum because I play a lot of mafia.
In if I can. :3
May I join? I was recommended to this forum because I play a lot of mafia.
In if I can. :3
I love how we're getting more people coming just for the mafia, nowadays. Awesome :3
musicalcakes, how extensive is your mafia experience?
Playstyles here seem to be a lot different. I'm used to there being a lot more discussion before anyone lynches anyone, even on day one. Opening with a lynch vote and no explanation tends to come across as scummy where I play, though from the few other topics I've looked at it seems like a relatively normal thing to do here.
Shark: What role would you prefer here, if you could pick (town or scum)?
How long have you been playing?
Also, what is this place and why were you referred here? Mostly just for my own curiosity.
And hmm, random vote stage, huh? In that case, Shark, what role were you in the one game you've played?
Andrew425, if you were scum, who would you want to be you partner-in-crime?
Urist Imiknorris Would you save an women or two men from a burning train?
Jim Groovester, if you were the doctor, who would you protect tonight?
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Andrew425, if you were scum, who would you want to be you partner-in-crime?
I would want Diakron because I would want his subtlety.
Diakron, picture this scenario: You and one other person are on a desert island much like this one (http://xkcd.com/731/). Rescuers are on their way, but there is only enough fresh water for one of you to survive until they arrive. You have a pistol with one shot . Who do you shoot - yourself or the other person?
While I'm waiting for Jim...
Diakron, picture this scenario: You and one other person are on a desert island much like this one (http://xkcd.com/731/). Rescuers are on their way, but there is only enough fresh water for one of you to survive until they arrive. You have a pistol with one shot . Who do you shoot - yourself or the other person?
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Andrew425, if you were scum, who would you want to be you partner-in-crime?
I would want Diakron because I would want his subtlety.
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Alignment doesn't really matter all that much to me since I can wreck shit no matter what alignment I am. Right now I'm preferring to be town, since I think my town game is languishing recently.
Native: Who would you fear most as scum here?
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Wow, at first glance this looks like a very subtle question trying to draw a read but when I stopped and thought about it...
Are you implying your town? Or maybe giving your partner Jim a chance to drop some false reads... maybe your scum trying to trick people into thinking your town...
Or maybe your really just asking a question. I got my eye on you buddy.
At first I read it as you wish you were playing town and was going to jump all over that, but then I reread it and can see what (I think) you were trying to say, but seeing as I have 2 eyes I'll keep the other on you.
Of everyone so far... Urist Imiknorris strikes me as the scummiest, but there ARE two other players to answer so, for now, I'll hold onto my vote.
I'm thinking that Urist Imiknorris maybe scum, but I don't have reads on anyone else, but I'm hoping the other two players shake loose a few more tidbits.
Do these sorts of moral and philosophical questions help you find who's scum?
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
Wow, at first glance this looks like a very subtle question trying to draw a read but when I stopped and thought about it...
Are you implying your town? Or maybe giving your partner Jim a chance to drop some false reads... maybe your scum trying to trick people into thinking your town...
Or maybe your really just asking a question. I got my eye on you buddy.
It would take a very active imagination to come to those sorts of conclusions from an incredibly simple and straightforward RVS question.
Why are you reading so much into Imiknorris' question?At first I read it as you wish you were playing town and was going to jump all over that, but then I reread it and can see what (I think) you were trying to say, but seeing as I have 2 eyes I'll keep the other on you.
Then why the hell did you say anything at all?
How the hell is this anything to keep an eye on me about? It's an ordinary random vote question and an ordinary answer. What's so watchable about that?
You're just making shit up to look active, aren't you?Of everyone so far... Urist Imiknorris strikes me as the scummiest, but there ARE two other players to answer so, for now, I'll hold onto my vote.
I'm thinking that Urist Imiknorris maybe scum, but I don't have reads on anyone else, but I'm hoping the other two players shake loose a few more tidbits.
Oh, do tell how you came to this conclusion.
Unvote, Diakron.
Shark has not answered my question.
Just an FYI, Diakron, RVS is considered over once real suspicions and votes have replaced random ones. While its a tad early yet, Jim's questions to you are the sort that would mark the end of RVS. It's not the sort of stage that ends with a definite indicator.
Having said that, you seem a bit jumpy and paraniod to be reading so much from RVS questions. Accusing others of sowing confusion, building teams...care to explain why?
Shark has not answered my question.
Just an FYI, Diakron, RVS is considered over once real suspicions and votes have replaced random ones. While its a tad early yet, Jim's questions to you are the sort that would mark the end of RVS. It's not the sort of stage that ends with a definite indicator.
Having said that, you seem a bit jumpy and paraniod to be reading so much from RVS questions. Accusing others of sowing confusion, building teams...care to explain why?
I believe I answered your first and last in my other post but the middle question still stands.
First off. Bravo! Day one and making accusations on a persons activity! But I guess since you didn't have to work ten hours today you DO look more active then I. Can't really give up my life for a game, sorry.
Cuase I believe that you should call attention to anything that jumps out at you, maybe I shouldn't have commented, but you WAY overreacted to it, instead of ignoring it (Cause i said that I misread it) and asking what you did to provoke my attention. Nothing at all. It was just posted to try and get a response from Urist Imiknorris. See if he tried to capitalize on it. After all, everything else was directed at him.
Jim Groovester you just tipped your hand, and frankly, I'm more then a little surprised that it was so easy...
It started as something subconscious I guess, but after reading everything, I kept being drawn to Urist Imiknorris. First off, Urist Imiknorris seems to be sowing confusion, to be fair RVS is all about trying to shake people up, but his is drawing away from the game. Once again, to be fair, Andrew started it, just noticed. (Possible scum team?)
But his question, asking for favorite role, What Would You Do's, and favorite scum buddies is common and employed by everone, but this?Jim Groovester, which side would you rather play: Town, scum or SK?
It rings alarms in my head, and alarms should be investigated. Do I feel 100% about him? No but if we were waiting for 100% then the scum would just pick us off with night kills. Am I ready to end the RVS? Not quite, there is one other player to speak out.
Will I forget my thoughts on this matter?
Not til the game ends...
Jim Groovester you just tipped your hand, and frankly, I'm more then a little surprised that it was so easy...
I believe I answered your first and last in my other post but the middle question still stands.
First off. Bravo! Day one and making accusations on a persons activity! But I guess since you didn't have to work ten hours today you DO look more active then I. Can't really give up my life for a game, sorry.
Cuase I believe that you should call attention to anything that jumps out at you, maybe I shouldn't have commented, but you WAY overreacted to it, instead of ignoring it (Cause i said that I misread it) and asking what you did to provoke my attention. Nothing at all. It was just posted to try and get a response from Urist Imiknorris. See if he tried to capitalize on it. After all, everything else was directed at him.
Jim Groovester you just tipped your hand, and frankly, I'm more then a little surprised that it was so easy...
Yeah, I don't like this. You're overreading RVS and you're being pretty damn jumpy.
First off, he never accused you of being inactive. He just accused you of making shit up. We don't need to know your schedule. It's Saturday. No one's expecting anyone to be especially active, why are you being so touchy?
Secondly, you say you believe that you should call attention to anything that jumps out at you and then you vote Jim... for... for doing... wait, wasn't he just doing what you said you should do? Calling attention to something that jumped out at him? What? Really? It sounds like a major OMGUS to me.
I think my vote will sit tight on you for a while.
Unvote, Urist Imiknorris: Who would you prefer for a scumpartner?
Diakron, its a little early for WIFOM isn't it?
All you got out of that was the fact that I worked today? Are you kidding me? did you, I don't know READ anything I posted?
If I was scum, why (think on this a little please) would I just jump out and draw attention to myself? I believe I stated that it was actually a draw for Urist Imiknorris, But I believe that OMGUS is not implied here. I never question him voting for me. If you are ready to begin your campaign against someone, then go for it. Jim thinks I'm scum (and he's within his rights to mass question me, I've been here done that, and got nominated as "Most likely to be to be Day1 lynched"), I think he's scum. (And believe that I have something other then a few odd questions)
Oh Look then Votes reflect that!
Why are you sticking up for him is what i want to know...
Diakron, its a little early for WIFOM isn't it?Please be a little more specific, I don't see any Wine here.
All you got out of that was the fact that I worked today? Are you kidding me? did you, I don't know READ anything I posted?
If I was scum, why (think on this a little please) would I just jump out and draw attention to myself?
If I was scum, why...(Wine goes here)
My vote's would probably going to be either noodlerex, for having only one post, which is literally two words, or diakron. Both seem kinda scummy. Noodlerex has one, very short post, like he's trying to avoid talking. Diakron is mostly just a gut feeling in the way he's acting so far, so i'm not going to say anything more until we hear more.
But I think there's plenty of day left so whatever.
My vote's would probably going to be either noodlerex, for having only one post, which is literally two words, or diakron. Both seem kinda scummy. Noodlerex has one, very short post, like he's trying to avoid talking. Diakron is mostly just a gut feeling in the way he's acting so far, so i'm not going to say anything more until we hear more.
But I think there's plenty of day left so whatever.
Why are you being so cautious? Ask questions, assert your suspicious, apply some pressure. Don't just sit around and wait.
Andrew, another scenario: It's MyLo, and you're the last scum player. Of the other three players, one is a habitual lurker, one has been giving off very strong town reads all game, and one has shown to be difficult for anyone to read. The day ends in a no-lynch. Who do you take with you to LyLo? Also, which of the hypothetical town players do you feel best matches your playstyle?
QuoteNoodlerex, what's your favorite role in mafia?
Basic town.
Cause i'm still pretty nooby at this. I guess I should.
Anyway, going to bed, won't be posting for like 10 hours.
As a note, i've never played this game online before and I want to know if I am doing this right, when I choose someone who I think is scum I say Vote:Joe Smith? And how many questions am I allowed to ask?
musicalcakes Would you kill half of humanity if it meant 100% could survive or would you take a 75/25 chance that we would either live or die?
Shark Do you believe in the power of friendship?
musicalcakes Would you kill half of humanity if it meant 100% could survive or would you take a 75/25 chance that we would either live or die?
Its not your answer i'm looking for its how you answer the question;
Everybody is going to more or less answer the question in their own way, but since these questions are somewhat out there you are less likely to have answered them before and more likely to give me an honest answer, and with that we can use it as a point of reference to figure out the difference between your real persona and your characters.
Urist_McArathos Lets say you were scum, how would you divy up the loot between you and the other scum?
I've played a similar game but the rules were slightly different.
Its not your answer i'm looking for its how you answer the question;
Everybody is going to more or less answer the question in their own way, but since these questions are somewhat out there you are less likely to have answered them before and more likely to give me an honest answer, and with that we can use it as a point of reference to figure out the difference between your real persona and your characters.
NativeForeigner I see you are leading the charge against the scum, is there a reason for this? Wouldn't you rather keep your head down and survive then go on a blatant charge against the enemy?
Oh I had assumed we were, which makes most of my questions pointless. :-[
And there I have it, by trying to place me in a box you seem to be going on the offensive thus indicating a need to shift the blame to someone other then diakron, perhaps trying to save him from a certain death?
Diakron
My reasoning is his outburst was pointless, which seemed like a last ditched effort to try to convince us that he wasn't mafia, this in my mind makes him seem quite likely to be a scum
musicalcakes since the day ends on Wednesday you'd still have plenty of time to switch your vote to another person
I have some good friends and friends will often bail you out on things, but real life isn't exactly an anime. I'm not sure what the question is supposed to really be asking me.Andrew, another scenario: It's MyLo, and you're the last scum player. Of the other three players, one is a habitual lurker, one has been giving off very strong town reads all game, and one has shown to be difficult for anyone to read. The day ends in a no-lynch. Who do you take with you to LyLo? Also, which of the hypothetical town players do you feel best matches your playstyle?
I would probably take the 1st and the 2nd, and then I would probably try to convince the 2nd player to take out the lurker, as he is less likely to refute my points.
Shark Do you believe in the power of friendship?
musicalcakes since the day ends on Wednesday you'd still have plenty of time to switch your vote to another person
Oh and Jim what i'm saying is that their is plenty of time to try to change peoples vote and convince them that another person is scummier. Unless the scum don't know each other yet in which case i'd be wrong again
QuoteYou're saying that musicalcakes has time enough to save Diakron and get people to change their votes... when he is also voting Diakron. It makes no sense.
I thought that it made a lot of sense, if you can convince 4 other people of something then you can switch your vote at the last and then get them out.
Do I really think thats what he is doing? No but I thought it would be wise to point it out...
its a little early for WIFOM isn't it?
I thought that it made a lot of sense, if you can convince 4 other people of something then you can switch your vote at the last and then get them out.
Do I really think thats what he is doing? No but I thought it would be wise to point it out...
I still think its diakron i'm just telling musical that I have my eyes on his shenanigans
I assume that means circular logic?
If I was scum, why (think on this a little please) would I just jump out and draw attention to myself?
But that was kinda my point, I knew by typing that that it could be interpreted scum-like.
What i'm saying is more or less of a risk/reward scenario which didn't help me very much yet painted a larger target on my back. I guess you could interpret that as me being extra crafty but I dunno. Again the logic goes around.
You're saying that musicalcakes has time enough to save Diakron and get people to change their votes... when he is also voting Diakron. It makes no sense.
I thought that it made a lot of sense, if you can convince 4 other people of something then you can switch your vote at the last and then get them out.
Do I really think thats what he is doing? No but I thought it would be wise to point it out...
I still think its diakron i'm just telling musical that I have my eyes on his shenanigans
Personally, I think Andrew must have an interesting role or something. I can't think of any reasons for a vanilla town/scum to act like he is right now. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Also, survivor was listed as a possible role. Maybe he finds this scenario risk/reward because, what I can tell is that the reward for him is making people look at other people, not him.
Also all this is taking the spotlight off of diak who is conveniently not posting. Hmm...
Personally, I think Andrew must have an interesting role or something. I can't think of any reasons for a vanilla town/scum to act like he is right now. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Everyone, who is your second most suspicious person?
Mine is Andrew, because he's trying to defend Diakron by spilling wine everywhere, while accusing musicalcakes of trying to either defend or lynch (not sure which) Diakron. And then he (Andrew) stopped posting - prod requested.
Okay, so chasing Diakron won't be productive for a while. NEXT.
Everyone, who is your second most suspicious person?
Mine is Andrew, because he's trying to defend Diakron by spilling wine everywhere, while accusing musicalcakes of trying to either defend or lynch (not sure which) Diakron. And then he (Andrew) stopped posting - prod requested.
Everyone, who is your second most suspicious person?
I'm here! I've just been lurking.
As for who is next on the lynch list I dunno no one really stands out.
I was never accusing musicalcakes I just said that if he tried to accuse someone else to protect diakron, that I was watching.
Andrew: I don't like how you were trying to save diakron back there. It's like you were subtly trying to either call musicalcakes scum or protect your scumbuddy.
What, I'm not allowed to use hyperbole? What is the world coming to these days? Then again, it was subtle enough for Andrew to miss it.Andrew: I don't like how you were trying to save diakron back there. It's like you were subtly trying to either call musicalcakes scum or protect your scumbuddy.
There was nothing subtle about it.
Oh fuck, we have a SK.
That Other Urist, what do you think about this?
Orangebottle. what opinions have you formed?
Personally, I think Andrew must have an interesting role or something. I can't think of any reasons for a vanilla town/scum to act like he is right now. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Also, survivor was listed as a possible role. Maybe he finds this scenario risk/reward because, what I can tell is that the reward for him is making people look at other people, not him.there.
Also all this is taking the spotlight off of diak who is conveniently not posting. Hmm...
UnvoteAnd voting diakron for the sake of voting diakron, even though diakron had more than enough votes at that point and Shark could've used his vote as pressure for scumhunting.
Diakron
Jumping back on the diakron train. I put my vote an andrew to try and prod him into saying things, but diak's more suspicious overall, and stopped posting.
Oh fuck, we have a SK.
I think Shark is scum because of his attempted rolefishing, there.
And voting diakron for the sake of voting diakron, even though diakron had more than enough votes at that point and Shark could've used his vote as pressure for scumhunting.
Oh fuck, we have a SK.
What a nice SK to kill the person everybody suspected.
You don't know what the scum's motives were for trying to kill anyone, so don't try to supply your own. You will be wrong.
I guess this is a place where Occam's razor really should be applied.I don't know anything about orangebottle really yet simpley because of how little he's posted, but I can't say I like him because it looks like he might start a train on me, he's making up reasons for my actions :/
Shark, you said you were suspicious of Noodlerex. What do you think of his replacement?
Orangebottle, care to come up with an original case, or perhaps question Shark?
Diakron. Do I really need to list my reasons for voting obvscum?
Andrew: I don't like how you were trying to save diakron back there. It's like you were subtly trying to either call musicalcakes scum or protect your scumbuddy.
Either way, you definitely need to be in a beginner's game or two.
I'm going to be rereading a few times and forming some more opinions.
Native, where'd you go? I saw you online recently.
Native, do you have anything constructive to add or are you just going to parrot Shark?
My vote is still on noodlerex until he speaks up.
Unvote.
Andrew245
Andrew really sticks out right now.
"And there I have it, by trying to place me in a box you seem to be going on the offensive thus indicating a need to shift the blame to someone other then diakron, perhaps trying to save him from a certain death?"
The context of that quote is that he's trying to accuse musical, who he was talking to, of saving diakron. And now he's egging on musical to save diak. He's getting at something and I can't figure it out. It sounds really scummy to me and I need to hear more.
Andrew, what are you trying to tell musical and why is your vote still on diak?
UnvoteThat post also contradicts your most recent post, where you say:
Diakron
Jumping back on the diakron train. I put my vote an andrew to try and prod him into saying things, but diak's more suspicious overall, and stopped posting.
I was most suspicious of noodle and now you have his role.So Shark, why are you lying to us? Is it because you have no genuine suspicions of your own? Because it seems to me like the only reason you voted for Diakron was the need to distance yourself from obvscum.
Hmmm.
I still don't get it. One of your arguments against Shark is that he had no reason for voting Diakron. But you also voted Diakron and were the very last one to do so. What's your reason? Why is it okay in your eyes to attack Shark for voting Diakron (who flipped scum) but not get attacked yourself for doing the same thing?
I joined in at the very end of the day, and had little time to pressure anybody else. Also, as I said above, I needed to look more active than my predecessor was, for obvious reasons.I said this in my last post. See the spoiler labeled "Defense"? Yeah.
You said yourself that voting Diakron was useless, since he was already going to get lynched. So why didn't you start hunting for the rest of the scumteam instead?And, I presented an alternate case on Andrew when I voted diakron. Something for him to respond to, had the day not ended. Of course, he was a newb, and proved to be a newb townie, but I found his actions more indicative of newb scum, myself.
You stress how I acted scummy for jumping on the diak train for no reason. Maybe you if read my earlier post, you'd see that I was hoping that the day would end. Some games have a rule where enough votes automatically end a day. I didn't think anything else was going to happen that day, and I wanted to see if I could speed up the game.So, you were voting to end the day, not to lynch scum. Nice. See, that's not a town attribute at all. Town votes to lynch scum. Scum votes to lynch town and get to the night phase faster so they can kill someone. If you had truly thought Noodlerex was the scummiest, you should've left your vote there, and continued to hunt other people without it.
Also, you continue to not read my posts. I said that diak was more suspicious overall when compared to andrew, noodle was still my most suspicious.. Also, because you're wondering why, I was still most suspicious of noodle because he NEVER posted besides once to sign up and once in day one. It just didn't show because I never got to question him. I was passive because I was waiting for him to speak up. I later started being less passive and used my vote and harassed andrew.Again, if noodle was the most suspicious person on your list, why weren't you voting for him when the day ended? Oh, wait. You answered that. You wanted the day to end faster so you could hurry up and kill musicalcakes.
I did read it. Your reasoning was God-awful. I wanted more. If you wanted to appear more active, then why do something you consider useless?What I said answers you question. I needed to do something. Diakron and Andrew were the only reads I had at that point and I ran with them.
Native's argument is almost identical to Shark's, and he's done almost nothing else today. Active lurking at its finest.
You stress how I acted scummy for jumping on the diak train for no reason. Maybe you if read my earlier post, you'd see that I was hoping that the day would end. Some games have a rule where enough votes automatically end a day. I didn't think anything else was going to happen that day, and I wanted to see if I could speed up the game.
So, you were voting to end the day, not to lynch scum. Nice. See, that's not a town attribute at all. Town votes to lynch scum. Scum votes to lynch town and get to the night phase faster so they can kill someone. If you had truly thought Noodlerex was the scummiest, you should've left your vote there, and continued to hunt other people without it.
Also, you continue to not read my posts. I said that diak was more suspicious overall when compared to andrew, noodle was still my most suspicious.. Also, because you're wondering why, I was still most suspicious of noodle because he NEVER posted besides once to sign up and once in day one. It just didn't show because I never got to question him. I was passive because I was waiting for him to speak up. I later started being less passive and used my vote and harassed andrew.
Native's argument is almost identical to Shark's, and he's done almost nothing else today. Active lurking at its finest.
So I can't build on a pre-existing argument without getting voted for it? What else do you have on me, or is that really it?
I won't deny the active lurking, like I said, I'm busy.
Orange, don't be a hypocrite. Apparently you don't have to use your vote as pressure, and just jump on the train but I have to for the the entire day. I know you came in late, but come on :/(I interpreted this as: I have to have a reason for my vote but you don't? Awfully hypocritical of you)
Hmmm.(I interpreted this as: Shark has to have a reason for his vote but you don't? Awfully hypocritical of you)
I still don't get it. One of your arguments against Shark is that he had no reason for voting Diakron. But you also voted Diakron and were the very last one to do so. What's your reason? Why is it okay in your eyes to attack Shark for voting Diakron (who flipped scum) but not get attacked yourself for doing the same thing?
Let's see...Okay. Are you going to develop the reasons behind your vote, or are you just going to sit there?
Shark is looking fairly scummish, but that might just be inexperience.
McArathos is online now, and I hope it's to make some contribution, as he hasn't done so yet today.
Native's argument is almost identical to Shark's, and he's done almost nothing else today. Active lurking at its finest.
PPE:Oh, look. It's...something. Huh. I can't really tell what. Looks like an argument with little content and a weak base.
PPE:Oh, look. It's...something. Huh. I can't really tell what. Looks like an argument with little content and a weak base.
My argument is that his case contained nothing original and was a direct repeat of others' arguments, which is not productive at all and constitutes active lurking.
My other argument is that I should have been asleep three hours ago if I wanted my reasoning skills intact.
Okay: Who do you currently suspect, Native? Why aren't you voting for them?
You also asked him a question that he had answered in the post immediately before yours.
Would you care to tell me what you actually added to the discussion? The recent developments that caused you to unvote were all a result of Shark's answers, not your questions.
Diakron's saying i'm scummy for not staying on him.
You guys are setting up this situation in your heads where whatever I answer is interpreted as scummy, this lose-lose situation. It doesn't matter what I say or do, you just don't want to hear it.Um. No. You just slipped under pressure, 'sall.
Orangebottle says I was scummy because I didn't switch from noodle quickly enough. Diakron's saying i'm scummy for not staying on him. Either way, one of of you if going to yell at me for it. Also, orangebottle is completely ignoring the parts where I point how he's being a hypocrite in his campaign against me, and native ignores that and jumps on the train.No, i'm saying you're scummy because you switched from the person you were most suspicious of. To end the day, not to lynch scum. That is very scummy.
I decided to harass andrew because diakron already slipped up, and noodle wasn't responding. Apparently, according to orangebottle, that isn't hunting. Could you explain why? Because I was, just in case he turned out to be scum. And don't tell me I should have been hunting diak because there was nothing I could think of to ask him that we didn't know, and he stopped posted. So what did you WANT me to do in your eyes that isn't scummy? Because you told me that staying on noodle was scummy, attacking andrew was scummy, and voting diak was scummy. There is no one I could have voted that would have made you think i'm not scummy, which is bullshit logic.I have already explained why it isn't really hunting. You asked him questions to which the answers were already obvious. You should've kept your vote on Noodlerex(as he was the most suspicious in your eyes) while hunting others. You could've gone after Imiknorris, Jim, Arathos, Native, Musicalcakes, Andrew...
Native's kinda active lurking a bit, like urist said, although the part where is got ninja'd by me is legit. However, orangebottle is protecting him solely because native took his vote off of orange and is now questioning me. This shows that the ONLY thing orangebottle cares about is getting me lynched, seeing how he set up this lose-lose scenario and protects people who might be against me.Hey Shark.
Tell me, does that look like i'm protecting Native to you?Let's see...Okay. Are you going to develop the reasons behind your vote, or are you just going to sit there?
Shark is looking fairly scummish, but that might just be inexperience.
McArathos is online now, and I hope it's to make some contribution, as he hasn't done so yet today.
Native's argument is almost identical to Shark's, and he's done almost nothing else today. Active lurking at its finest.
It's rare that people are convinced by a one-line-wonder.
PPE:Oh, look. It's...something. Huh. I can't really tell what. Looks like an argument with little content and a weak base.
So i'm going to ask this again.It's simple, really. I think you're scum. When I think someone is scum, I go all-out. It's just how I play.
Orangebottle, what the hell do you have against me? Did I kick your dog or something?
Mistype. Pretend that's "native" because I was trying to say native was saying i'm scummy for not staying on him.You can't edit your post. But you can EBWOP(Edit By Way of Post). Just type:
Shit, I wish I could edit the post but i'm pretty sure that's against the rules for obvious reasons. Now orangebottle's gonna ignore this post and ask me why I said diakron in the above post.
EBWOP: Native's saying i'm scummy for not staying on him.
"No, i'm saying you're scummy because you switched from the person you were most suspicious of. To end the day, not to lynch scum. That is very scummy."I have already told you why it's scummy. Who's the non-reading hypocrite now?
Stop saying that and tell me why it was scummy, you never post any reasons. .__.
Also, how was it "To end the day, not to lynch scum."?
There's two scum. One was diak. It was still lynching someone suspicious, just not as suspicious.
So, you were voting to end the day, not to lynch scum. Nice. See, that's not a town attribute at all. Town votes to lynch scum. Scum votes to lynch town and get to the night phase faster so they can kill someone. If you had truly thought Noodlerex was the scummiest, you should've left your vote there, and continued to hunt other people without it.As for your second question, you said it yourself.
You stress how I acted scummy for jumping on the diak train for no reason. Maybe you if read my earlier post, you'd see that I was hoping that the day would end. Some games have a rule where enough votes automatically end a day. I didn't think anything else was going to happen that day, and I wanted to see if I could speed up the game.
Random sidenote I just thought of: If the mysterious killer is a serial killer pretending to be a vigilante, if you guys mislynch on me today, there is literally no way for town to win unless the SK kills the scum and you guys lynch the SK the next day.Alright. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Let's hope it's a vigil.
Very well.
McArathos, get in here. Are you going to participate? You were online half an hour ago, but you haven't bothered to show up here. What's wrong? Are you trying to lay low and avoid suspicion? It ain't working.
Imiknorris: He wasn't doing anything to defend himself, just complaining about how he messed up. It's absolutely NOT town's job to prove somebody's not scum if everybody thinks he's scum. It just doesn't work that way, nobody thinks it's a mislynch, so nobody's going to say anything about it. You can't just sit back and let town prove your towniness, you've gotta put some effort in defending yourself, something he wasn't doing.
It's interesting that you think that way. What makes you think it's town's job to prove the townhood of someone else? Doesn't that just seem like babysitting to you?
Random sidenote I just thought of: If the mysterious killer is a serial killer pretending to be a vigilante, if you guys mislynch on me today, there is literally no way for town to win unless the SK kills the scum and you guys lynch the SK the next day.Alright. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Let's hope it's a vigil.
Who's this mysterious killer, and why?
And why do you think they haven't claimed vigilante yet?
Imiknorris: He wasn't doing anything to defend himself, just complaining about how he messed up. It's absolutely NOT town's job to prove somebody's not scum if everybody thinks he's scum. It just doesn't work that way, nobody thinks it's a mislynch, so nobody's going to say anything about it. You can't just sit back and let town prove your towniness, you've gotta put some effort in defending yourself, something he wasn't doing.
It's interesting that you think that way. What makes you think it's town's job to prove the townhood of someone else? Doesn't that just seem like babysitting to you?
I should have been more specific - it's the accuser's job to prove that the town are scum. The burden of proof is on them, not the person they're accusing.
Quick Post: I see a lot of vig speculation. I feel the vig should not claim until LYLO, as they would be a tempting scum Target. Anyone who wants the vig to claim had better explain why they disagree, lest I find it as scummy as asking for a doctor claim.
Fine, I get the idea, everyone and their mother is telling me, it never seemed scummy to me so I didn't do it. My inexperience started 90% of today's conversation :|Imiknorris: He wasn't doing anything to defend himself, just complaining about how he messed up. It's absolutely NOT town's job to prove somebody's not scum if everybody thinks he's scum. It just doesn't work that way, nobody thinks it's a mislynch, so nobody's going to say anything about it. You can't just sit back and let town prove your towniness, you've gotta put some effort in defending yourself, something he wasn't doing.
It's interesting that you think that way. What makes you think it's town's job to prove the townhood of someone else? Doesn't that just seem like babysitting to you?
I should have been more specific - it's the accuser's job to prove that the town are scum. The burden of proof is on them, not the person they're accusing.
I did that. I was the first to vote him. It was an RVS, he slipped up, I called him out on it and explained why I wasn't going to unvote. I followed up until he ceased to be responsive. I don't see how that's placing any burden of proof on him.
Shark: Even if you don't think anyone is going to believe you, just take the time to build a decent case. Ask questions and whatnot. Don't just abandon the case to end the day, that's scummy.
Yes, I know they're possible roles. Two NKs confirms the existence of one.Check out the first post. Vigil and SK are both possible roles.Random sidenote I just thought of: If the mysterious killer is a serial killer pretending to be a vigilante, if you guys mislynch on me today, there is literally no way for town to win unless the SK kills the scum and you guys lynch the SK the next day.Alright. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Let's hope it's a vigil.
Who's this mysterious killer, and why?
And why do you think they haven't claimed vigilante yet?
There were 2 night kills, so we have once of them in this game.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.
So because these situations look pretty bad for you, besides 1, I say we put our argument on hold and look at other people, you need to lynch the correct person today to win....
Now, the reason I did all this?
Normally i'd be willing to sacrifice myself if it means we get the scum but until we get a vig claim, there's an SK. It's MYLO unless scum finds the SK. I can't afford to let myself die.
In the situations where you're scum or SK, you have a really good reason to lead the lynch today. SK needs to get the scum to have a chance. Scum needs to attract attention on other people.
In the situations where you're town, why would you be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? You've been hounding on my ass the whole day no matter what I say, ignoring every other person. At least examine them.
Shark: one of the things you'll find really pisses me off is being ignored.
You've failed to express any actual opinion with this massive post. Which situation do you think is the most likely? Why?
Also, you only answered the last question. Who do you think is the SK, and why do you think they are the SK?
Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.My vote's staying there because you're currently the most scummy player on the map. You want my opinions on everyone?
Shark: Before I can answer that, I need you to answer this:
In this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2675508#msg2675508) post, you switch your vote from Andrew, who wasn't posting to Diakron who wasn't posting... for not posting... you then proceed to do nothing to back up your vote, you don't even ask questions. As you put it yourself, you were just jumping on the Diakron train. Why did you change your vote from someone who wasn't voting to someone else who wasn't voting? It's not like you were trying to provoke activity.
Imiknorris, Why are you only going after Native and Arathos?
Check out the first post. Vigil and SK are both possible roles.Congratulations on missing the obvious. Why would a vig not be afraid of being a mafia target?
There were 2 night kills, so we have once of them in this game.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.
Normally i'd be willing to sacrifice myself if it means we get the scum but until we get a vig claim, there's an SK. It's MYLO unless scum finds the SK. I can't afford to let myself die.
In the situations where you're town, why would you be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? You've been hounding on my ass the whole day no matter what I say, ignoring every other person. At least examine them.Why would you ask him that? You even said yourself that (according to you) the town can't afford to mislynch. So what is it about Orangebottle's "desperation" that's bad coming from him but good coming from you?
Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.What are your opinions on everyone, as you say every town should at least have? And why are you suggesting that the two of you drop it? Is that the only defense you have left? Also, what makes you sure he's town, but not sure enough to unvote him?
My original thoughts about halfway through day one were that diak and noodle might be scumteam, if that clears anything up.No, it really doesn't. If you thought Diakron and Noodlerex were the scumteam, why didn't you say so during D1? I think you're making this up to justify your vote on Diakron.
Jim: Where'd you run off to?
Jim, anything to add? What's your opinion on Orangebottle's response to your questions? Why aren't you posting?
Jim's vanished,
My logic is thus: rolefishing is scummy. Anything bordering rolefishing is therefore scummy.
And yes, I do need to look active, what after the person I replaced lurking most of day 1. To stave off the people who have the mentality of,"Oh, his predecessor was lurking so hard this replacement MUST be scum!".
Jim:
To me, your day 1 play seems pretty passive. Probably because you've been speaking in your special IC voice all day. Stop softballing us.
IN ESSENCE:
1.You were incredibly passive on day 1.
2.You had no reason for voting Diakron. He claimed scum after you voted for him.
3.You are a liar.
So, you were voting to end the day, not to lynch scum. Nice. See, that's not a town attribute at all. Town votes to lynch scum. Scum votes to lynch town and get to the night phase faster so they can kill someone. If you had truly thought Noodlerex was the scummiest, you should've left your vote there, and continued to hunt other people without it.
Jim:It feels like he's trying too hard to look town. Not that he's too townie. Where someone else has told Andrew or Shark that they should find a BM, and told them why they were wrong, Jim's gone into a massive in-depth explanation that ended up being his entire post.
Okay. Are you going to develop the reasons behind your vote, or are you just going to sit there?
It's rare that people are convinced by a one-line-wonder.
PPE:Oh, look. It's...something. Huh. I can't really tell what. Looks like an argument with little content and a weak base.
You guys are setting up this situation in your heads where whatever I answer is interpreted as scummy, this lose-lose situation. It doesn't matter what I say or do, you just don't want to hear it.
Also, orangebottle is completely ignoring the parts where I point how he's being a hypocrite in his campaign against me, and native ignores that and jumps on the train.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.
If anyone's got a vig claim, it would help.
The reason i'm trying so hard to stay alive is because I think it's an SK, not a vig.
If it's scummy then it's not to the same degree as actual rolefishing. Yet you came out to start Day 2 swinging like it was the scummiest thing in the world. Why?I found something scummy about him and pressed. Hard.
It's scumhunting for a reason. :PIN ESSENCE:
1.You were incredibly passive on day 1.
2.You had no reason for voting Diakron. He claimed scum after you voted for him.
3.You are a liar.
Posts like these, which you have a lot of, are why I have a hard time believing you actually think Shark is scum. You're being a lot harder on him than you really need to be or is warranted by the evidence you have on him.
Clearly he's inexperienced and has no idea how to capably defend himself. And your response to it? Practically predatory.
Yes. Exactly then. By giving so much advice to the newguys, they're going to trust you and think you're more likely to be town. It's something i tried as scum in BMXVI and it worked wonderfully.Jim:It feels like he's trying too hard to look town. Not that he's too townie. Where someone else has told Andrew or Shark that they should find a BM, and told them why they were wrong, Jim's gone into a massive in-depth explanation that ended up being his entire post.
And you developed this opinion when exactly? In the flurry of activity I had between my last post and now?
Explain to me exactly how I've been trying too hard to look town. How about you quote me somebody's post who made an adequate explanation and then link me mine that is 'massive and in-depth.'
For accusing me of trying too hard to look town, you sure look an awful lot like you're trying to out-town everybody else, what with how you're giving everybody shit for anything you can grasp at in a needlessly hostile way.I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?
Oh fuck, we have a SK.
That Other Urist, what do you think about this?
Random sidenote I just thought of: If the mysterious killer is a serial killer pretending to be a vigilante, if you guys mislynch on me today, there is literally no way for town to win unless the SK kills the scum and you guys lynch the SK the next day.
Let's hope it's a vigil.
For accusing me of trying too hard to look town, you sure look an awful lot like you're trying to out-town everybody else, what with how you're giving everybody shit for anything you can grasp at in a needlessly hostile way.
Yes. Exactly then. By giving so much advice to the newguys, they're going to trust you and think you're more likely to be town. It's something i tried as scum in BMXVI and it worked wonderfully.
Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.
OrangebottleYou aren't the only one to say that.
Your behavior is odd, to me, to say the least. I won't fault your arguments themselves, since they don't seem to be that poor.
This is a big problem I have with you so far. You seem overly concerned with pointing out everything people are doing that you find odd, regardless of severity. You seem like you're trying to make sure we all see how super-aware you are of everyone and what they need to do to be good players, like you're ICing in here. We don't need a role model, Orange. What are you trying to prove?For one thing, I've always thought that if something is odd or suspicious, you should point it out.
This is a tactic you tried in a BM game, where learning to play is valued above trying to win. This is not a BM game, it is a take-no-prisoners play to win battle royale. Ergo, Jim (if he is scum) has just as much reason to crush the hapless newbies under his bootheel than to rescue them. Explain to me how a new, flailing player like Shark is more useful to Scum Jim alive than dead (seeing as how he's really the only newbie left)? If you can't, then how can you expect me to believe Jim would bother some drawn-out confidence building crap that could backfire or required him to lob softballs and be helpful, when he could just squash this newtown and move one lynch closer to LYLO?...Are you kidding me? You can't see how one extra person trusting you doesn't benefit you in the slightest?
I personally think it's a crock of shit. Jim wasn't being a complete, relentless prick to the clearly in-over-their-heads new guys. While this IS out of the ordinary for his meta (Jim is always a complete, relentless prick), how is it not, I don't know, maybe being nice to the new people so they don't run away crying and this board loses MORE potential players? It seems like a huge stretch to turn a little courtesy into some convoluted scum plot.I never said I thought he was scum. I said he was trying too hard to look town. Town can try too hard just as much as Scum can try too hard. Also, it was an opinion, not an entire case. Why do you feel the need to point this out?
I found something scummy about him and pressed. Hard.
. . .
It's scumhunting for a reason. :P
Joking aside, maybe I have been a little hard on him.
In my defense, he said he's played before.
Yes. Exactly then. By giving so much advice to the newguys, they're going to trust you and think you're more likely to be town. It's something i tried as scum in BMXVI and it worked wonderfully.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2669511#msg2669511) is Native's post, and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2669688#msg2669688) is yours. I may have been exaggerating a little as far as 'massive' goes, but most of your post was advice to the newguys.
I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?
I never said I thought he was scum. I said he was trying too hard to look town. Town can try too hard just as much as Scum can try too hard. Also, it was an opinion, not an entire case. Why do you feel the need to point this out?
It's something i tried as scum in BMXVI and it worked wonderfully.
Shark: Screaming newb vibes, I'm guessing newb Town who's trying very hard to play the game "right" without knowing too much what that is, not so much trying to act Town.
. . .
I'll start with my top pick for scum.
Shark
I personally think it's a crock of shit. Jim wasn't being a complete, relentless prick to the clearly in-over-their-heads new guys. While this IS out of the ordinary for his meta (Jim is always a complete, relentless prick), how is it not, I don't know, maybe being nice to the new people so they don't run away crying and this board loses MORE potential players? It seems like a huge stretch to turn a little courtesy into some convoluted scum plot.
Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.
This isn't the first time you've told me this. I trust that, since you've said this time and again regardless of being town or scum, it's the truth (at least to you). Why not, if you don't mind explaining to me?
My thought is that, if someone is accusing you of doing something scummy or stupid or whatever, and then does it themselves, they are being scum by their own definition. So, if they're claiming something is a scumtell while they're doing the same damn thing, aren't they just making up a case (since if they truly believed it wasn't scummy, they'd acknowledge that and back down or avoid it in the first place)?
I even say the same thing I normally do.
Nice of you to backpedal immediately after being pressed about it.That's not backpedaling. It's admitting that I may have been wrong. We can't all possess your infallible competence. Being wrong is a scumtell now, is it jim?
So what about his play on Day 1 made you think that he was anything other than an inexperienced player and that pressing him with extreme pressure would do anything other than prove it?
Him saying he's played before does not mean he was an expert. He even said he was noobish (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2669522#msg2669522).
Oh, sure. Because I spread three tidbits of advice to three new players across a single post that means I'm trying so much harder to look like town than NativeForeigner.I never made any arguments against you. I don't know what you find so hard to understand about that.
Is there any special reason why you're making crappy arguments with crappy justifications?
Because you're doing it for the sake of your appearance than actual concern about the issues you raise.Yeah. Right. Because nothing I point out is ever a valid concern.
Bullshit....
Sure, you didn't say I was scum, but you damn well implied it.
This is mincing words, Orangebottle. Why are you doing it?
Shark:Imiknorris, Why are you only going after Native and Arathos?
Jim's vanished, your logic is terrible enough that I can't tell if you're scum or just bad, I can't find anything suspicious from OB (which means I need to go back and read again), and I'm not going to attack myself.Check out the first post. Vigil and SK are both possible roles.Congratulations on missing the obvious. Why would a vig not be afraid of being a mafia target?Don't we only get on more vig kill anyway? Or am I mistaken?
There were 2 night kills, so we have once of them in this game.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.QuoteNormally i'd be willing to sacrifice myself if it means we get the scum but until we get a vig claim, there's an SK. It's MYLO unless scum finds the SK. I can't afford to let myself die.QuoteIn the situations where you're town, why would you be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? You've been hounding on my ass the whole day no matter what I say, ignoring every other person. At least examine them.Why would you ask him that? You even said yourself that (according to you) the town can't afford to mislynch. So what is it about Orangebottle's "desperation" that's bad coming from him but good coming from you?He didn't question anyone else for a long time.Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.What are your opinions on everyone, as you say every town should at least have? And why are you suggesting that the two of you drop it? Is that the only defense you have left? Also, what makes you sure he's town, but not sure enough to unvote him? I'm planning not to change my vote until I find someone i'm sure is scum. Orange originally got on my ass for not using my vote the way he thinks I should, so i'm going to me more careful.
Also, if you want to know my opinions:
Orange: Probably misguided town.
You: Toss-up.
Arathos: Toss-up.
Jim: Probably town, although I might be thinking this just because he helped defend me.
Native: Not sure. He doesn't have a vote right now, and isn't questioning people at the moment. Might just be schedule stuff.My original thoughts about halfway through day one were that diak and noodle might be scumteam, if that clears anything up.No, it really doesn't. If you thought Diakron and Noodlerex were the scumteam, why didn't you say so during D1? I think you're making this up to justify your vote on Diakron. How am I making this up? Through my posts today you can see that they were my top 2.
You're also asking the town why they aren't treating you like some sort of town leader.I'm pretty sure I never asked that. There are very, very few reasons to vote for someone besides their scumminess when you're town.
"Yeah. Right. Because nothing I point out is ever a valid concern." Is this a valid concern or simple opinion? You say it's both in the same post, to get a better answer to the current question. It's bullshit.These were about two separate things. The opinion is 'Jim's been trying too hard to look town'. The whole valid concern thing comes from what Jim said here:
I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?
Because you're doing it for the sake of your appearance than actual concern about the issues you raise.
"Jim. I'm going to ask you something a certain lizard has asked me in the past. Am I voting for you?" Just because you don't vote someone doesn't mean you can't call them scummy.Yes, but I haven't voted for him all game. I haven't even thrown an FoS his way. Let's face it: if Jim is scum, he's doing his job damn well and deserves to win.
I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?Because you're doing it for the sake of your appearance than actual concern about the issues you raise.
What?Sorry, I explained this big fuck up earlier. It's a poor explanation, but it's the truth. I was tired and sloppy.
How?
Why?
You contradict yourself within several lines in your post.
I personally think it's a crock of shit. Jim wasn't being a complete, relentless prick to the clearly in-over-their-heads new guys. While this IS out of the ordinary for his meta (Jim is always a complete, relentless prick), how is it not, I don't know, maybe being nice to the new people so they don't run away crying and this board loses MORE potential players? It seems like a huge stretch to turn a little courtesy into some convoluted scum plot.
The hell are you talking about? This is perfectly within my meta. I've held back for new players who have and haven't played Beginner's Mafias and offered them advice on... several occasions. (I don't exactly remember which games. I can think of one example off the top of my head.) Lynching newbies for being newbies is a waste of time, and I'd rather avoid it if it's at all possible.
As Jim pointed out, you implied HEAVILY you thought he was scum. Saying that you did the same thing "as scum" and it worked well implies that you believe that's the reason it's happening here. It also leaves you a convenient out if you're called on it ("I never SAID he was scum...")Sure, you could read it that way. Or you could actually read what's going on in the thread.
Also, this:I'll correct my behavior now, then.I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?Because you're doing it for the sake of your appearance than actual concern about the issues you raise.
You're pointing out things that are scummy or odd, but never pursuing or questioning them. Again, I feel like you're acting more like a referee than hunting with these statements. You're blowing a warning whistle as if to say, "I'm watching you, buddy!" but then you proceed to not pursue any of the points you raise. You're doing it just to make yourself look active and aggressively on the hunt for scummy behavior.
Don't we only get on more vig kill anyway? Or am I mistaken?There's a possible roleblocker. If the second gunman claims, he could be roleblocked and we would have zero vig kills. Why didn't you account for that?
Don't we only get on more vig kill anyway? Or am I mistaken?There's a possible roleblocker. If the second gunman claims, he could be roleblocked and we would have zero vig kills. Why didn't you account for that?
How have you not got it through your thick skull yet? I never went after Jim. Ever.As Jim pointed out, you implied HEAVILY you thought he was scum. Saying that you did the same thing "as scum" and it worked well implies that you believe that's the reason it's happening here. It also leaves you a convenient out if you're called on it ("I never SAID he was scum...")Sure, you could read it that way. Or you could actually read what's going on in the thread.
Y'know, the part where I said I never thought Jim was scum and if he is he'd deserve the win.
Certain scum strategies work for town in specific situations. This one would be great for a skilled townie, as they won't have to defend themselves as much and they can concentrate on finding scum.QuoteAlso, this:I'll correct my behavior now, then.I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?Because you're doing it for the sake of your appearance than actual concern about the issues you raise.
You're pointing out things that are scummy or odd, but never pursuing or questioning them. Again, I feel like you're acting more like a referee than hunting with these statements. You're blowing a warning whistle as if to say, "I'm watching you, buddy!" but then you proceed to not pursue any of the points you raise. You're doing it just to make yourself look active and aggressively on the hunt for scummy behavior.
Arathos: I find it hard to believe that you'd put a serious case on someone, with logic that I would've used had I noticed it, then backpedal because 'you're tired'.
If Shark is such a newb, he shouldn't be on the top of your scumlist. No, he should be further down.
Why aren't you trying to go after the person on the top of your list?
Shark:What makes you think that Jim's defending you instead of attacking me?
Oh.Don't be so hard on yourself. Not knowing the game very well doesn't make you a dumbass. Just sign up for the next BM and learn.
I'm a dumbass, sorry. I really have no excuse.
That's not backpedaling. It's admitting that I may have been wrong. We can't all possess your infallible competence. Being wrong is a scumtell now, is it jim?
I gave my reasons in the post I voted for him. Those reasons then expanded into more as he gave in to the pressure. A case isn't a tree. You can't just rip it out by the roots and call the whole thing dead.
That doesn't mean he's a total scrub either, Jim. I expected him to be able to handle some pressure.
I never made any arguments against you. I don't know what you find so hard to understand about that.
You were much more detailed about it than Native was. That's the difference here.
. . .
...
No you?
You're the one who's attacking me over a simple opinion I had.
Why are you so sure that the strategy could only work for scum? There are some situations in which it could work for town, too.
Sure, you could read it that way. Or you could actually read what's going on in the thread.
Y'know, the part where I said I never thought Jim was scum and if he is he'd deserve the win.
Certain scum strategies work for town in specific situations. This one would be great for a skilled townie, as they won't have to defend themselves as much and they can concentrate on finding scum.
Jim. I'm going to ask you something a certain lizard has asked me in the past. Am I voting for you?
Quote"Jim. I'm going to ask you something a certain lizard has asked me in the past. Am I voting for you?" Just because you don't vote someone doesn't mean you can't call them scummy.Yes, but I haven't voted for him all game. I haven't even thrown an FoS his way. Let's face it: if Jim is scum, he's doing his job damn well and deserves to win.
Jim, what are your reasons for defending me?
How have you not got it through your thick skull yet? I never went after Jim. Ever.
Arathos: I find it hard to believe that you'd put a serious case on someone, with logic that I would've used had I noticed it, then backpedal because 'you're tired'.
Why aren't you trying to go after the person on the top of your list?
Why aren't you trying to go after the person on the top of your list?
This doesn't answer my question. Thank you for not answering my question.
I asked you what made you think he wasn't a complete noob. Instead you talk about your reasons for your vote. Conveniently you don't approach anywhere where it could be considered that you explained why you thought he could handle the pressure.
More mincing words.
If you thought it was a town strategy then you should have said that; you wouldn't want people to accuse you of scummy doubletalk, now would you? That we're having this conversation at all means you're lying or are incapable of detailing what you actually mean concerning anything, and I'm considerably more inclined to believe the former.
Your answer that my answer was simply more detailed than NativeForeigner's is weaselly.It's more detailed. Needlessly so.
I'll point out that using every single post as evidence dilutes your case and will make it hard to convince other players with it. People have a hard time believing that large portions of a player's contributions are scummy. Focus your case on the most convincing arguments, stick to specific, demonstrative evidence, make sure you have it ready, but you don't necessarily need to quote or link it if it's apparent what you're talking. (billybobfred, take note, this applies to your most recent post as well.) If you can focus your attacks like that you'll be several times more effective at playing town.I'd say it's not too far of a leap to say that using every single aspect of a person's post as evidence works the same way. Summarize your case on me in a few, easy to read sentences. As it is, it looks like you're just flinging shit in an attempt to get me to unvote shark.
It has something to do with your case. One of your points is that I'm calling you scum(which I'm not).Jim. I'm going to ask you something a certain lizard has asked me in the past. Am I voting for you?
This has nothing to do with anything. If your reasons are suspect I'm going to attack them no matter what your stance towards me is.
Is this supposed to placate me and get me off your tail? Shame on you for trying and thinking it would work if it was.
Nice dodging of my question while I'm at it.
It's not an answer. Shark didn't ask me a question. It was a response. He was stating something about the question I posed at you.Quote"Jim. I'm going to ask you something a certain lizard has asked me in the past. Am I voting for you?" Just because you don't vote someone doesn't mean you can't call them scummy.Yes, but I haven't voted for him all game. I haven't even thrown an FoS his way. Let's face it: if Jim is scum, he's doing his job damn well and deserves to win.
Again, this has nothing to do with anything at all. You do not have to reciprocate my suspicion in order for me to suspect you.
How is this supposed to be an effective answer?
Primarily, Orangebottle's reasons for attacking you are terrible. Secondarily, I don't think you're scum.While my initial reasons may have been bad, my attack eventually lead to this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684088#msg2684088). This is one of the strongest points of my argument against shark. If you're so sure Shark isn't scum, crush it. Crush it hard. Smash it until there's nothing left to smash. That will get me to unvote Shark, which is what you need to get me lynched. I have a feeling that that is exactly what you want, even though I'm town.
Not directly; you took a pot-shot at him, implied he was scum, and have backed off that stance as soon as it was challenged, using the convienent out of "I never said it, or voted him" as though that was proof you were just talking. I don't like this "Hey, I'm just calling it like I see it" attitude you've got going on. I'm not buying that your reasons for prodding and calling out people over minor details is as innocent as you claim, and I'm certainly not buying that your sneaky remarks about Jim were really just musings about his helping the new people and its impact.Why do you think this? It's nigh-impossible to defend myself from baseless opinion, and that's exactly what you've just presented us with. Garbage. Now, why on earth would you want someone to be unable to defend themself?
I didn't backpedal so much as realized I'd fucked my post up by not thoroughly re-reading it and making the correct adjustments before posting.You didn't backpedal so much as you backpedaled.
I have been Orangebottle, and you've just helped me clear up my confusion. Thank you, now hang.You think the choice is between A and B, yet you're totally disregarding C, D, and E. Native, Jim, and Imiknorris. Tell me, why could none of them be scum? Keep in mind that we may have a scum and an SK left. Lynching one won't stop the other. Lynching town may end the game. And, as I have said many times before: I. Am. Town.
As it is, it looks like you're just flinging shit in an attempt to get me to unvote shark.
Jim. You're ignoring a key piece of advice you've given me(and others) in the past. Back in BMXVI.
Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.
weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel
Oh, look, I ca-weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weasel weaselherp derp herp derp herp derp herp derp herp derp herp derp herp
Arathos: If you're going to be really, really busy, at least have the decency to ask for a replacement now. Bad things happen when you don't. See: Flandre in BMXVI
QuoteI didn't backpedal so much as realized I'd fucked my post up by not thoroughly re-reading it and making the correct adjustments before posting.You didn't backpedal so much as you backpedaled.
Oh, wait.
You voted for shark, and then immediately backed off when pressed by Jim about it. That's almost the definition of backpedaling, Arathos.
QuoteI have been Orangebottle, and you've just helped me clear up my confusion. Thank you, now hang.You think the choice is between A and B, yet you're totally disregarding C, D, and E. Native, Jim, and Imiknorris. Tell me, why could none of them be scum? Keep in mind that we may have a scum and an SK left. Lynching one won't stop the other. Lynching town may end the game. And, as I have said many times before: I. Am. Town.
While my initial reasons may have been bad, my attack eventually lead to this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684088#msg2684088). This is one of the strongest points of my argument against shark. If you're so sure Shark isn't scum, crush it. Crush it hard. Smash it until there's nothing left to smash. That will get me to unvote Shark, which is what you need to get me lynched. I have a feeling that that is exactly what you want, even though I'm town.
As it is, it looks like you're just flinging shit in an attempt to get me to unvote shark.
What is this shit. What. Is. It. Why would Jim want that? There were two scum in this game. Two. One is dead, so there's one. So why would Jim chainsaw defend someone? Orangebottle, you're making things up, and that's not good.
I never meant to vote for Shark in the first place; I'd said that, in typing that post, my vote had shifted about four times already as I caught up on the day. I fucked up, and should have been more careful in proofreading. I said that before, and if you don't like it as an answer, there's not much I can do about it. It was a pretty stupid mistake to make, no arguments there. That's why, when I unvoted, I made it CLEAR it was a mistake and I expected consequences.'kay. I understand now.
Oh, by the way, nice job throwing out that "What about the SK?!" line. No, I don't want to mislynch town. I also don't want someone to try and guilt trip me out of voting them by insisting they're town and this could be a big mistake.It's not just a guilt trip. From my perspective, I know that I'm town and that one or more of you is town. It was foolish of me to try and use this, though.
This is bullshit, Orangebottle, and you know it. The burden of proof is on you to prove he's scum, and the burden of proof is on himself to prove someone else is scum. Reacting to Jim's suspicions by telling him to prove you're wrong about Shark is a distraction.Sure is.
I'd point to this as why:As it is, it looks like you're just flinging shit in an attempt to get me to unvote shark.
What is this shit. What. Is. It. Why would Jim want that? There were two scum in this game. Two. One is dead, so there's one. So why would Jim chainsaw defend someone? Orangebottle, you're making things up, and that's not good.
This. If Jim's scum, one mislynch is as good as another. This doesn't make any sense at all.
Answers to Imiknorris are underlined.But if this were the case, Jim would be attacking basically everyone in an attempt to get them off of Shark. So, I doubt it is.
Jim: Probably town, although I might be thinking this just because he helped defend me.
A lot of the stuff I posted was just made-up shit to get Jim to go away....Orangebottle. If you're town, then you shouldn't be doing crap like this. You know better.
Allow me to ask the question you should have assumed was asked - if it's a distraction, then why did you do it? And no, getting Jim off your case is not an acceptable answer.QuoteThis is bullshit, Orangebottle, and you know it. The burden of proof is on you to prove he's scum, and the burden of proof is on himself to prove someone else is scum. Reacting to Jim's suspicions by telling him to prove you're wrong about Shark is a distraction.Sure is.
Yeah. My town play's pretty awful. I deserve this.A lot of the stuff I posted was just made-up shit to get Jim to go away....Orangebottle. If you're town, then you shouldn't be doing crap like this. You know better.
Allow me to ask the question you should have assumed was asked - if it's a distraction, then why did you do it? And no, getting Jim off your case is not an acceptable answer.QuoteThis is bullshit, Orangebottle, and you know it. The burden of proof is on you to prove he's scum, and the burden of proof is on himself to prove someone else is scum. Reacting to Jim's suspicions by telling him to prove you're wrong about Shark is a distraction.Sure is.
Fixed a quoting error.QuoteWhy else would I be using a distraction? The point of a distraction is to distract somebody. In this case I was trying to distract Jim so he'd get off my case. I fail to see how that's an unacceptable answer.QuoteAllow me to ask the question you should have assumed was asked - if it's a distraction, then why did you do it? And no, getting Jim off your case is not an acceptable answer.QuoteThis is bullshit, Orangebottle, and you know it. The burden of proof is on you to prove he's scum, and the burden of proof is on himself to prove someone else is scum. Reacting to Jim's suspicions by telling him to prove you're wrong about Shark is a distraction.Sure is.
Why else would I be using a distraction? The point of a distraction is to distract somebody. In this case I was trying to distract Jim so he'd get off my case. I fail to see how that's an unacceptable answer.
But if this were the case, Jim would be attacking basically everyone in an attempt to get them off of Shark. So, I doubt it is.
A lot of the stuff I posted was just made-up shit to get Jim to go away.
I had a ton of questions for you you should answer, or I might reconsider my position that you're just a noob.
I don't really know what's indicative of newscum and newtown.
What should I be looking for?
Then you admit you made up a lot of this stuff, which consists of several long posts of bull, besides when you chewed up my Mylo argument, that argument was pretty bad. However, in the end, you did this just so you could survive because you're scared of Jim. You went after someone, me, who you later admit you had terrible reasons for voting. You jumped on me just so you wouldn't die, and apparently according to your recent posts you never actually thought I was scum, you made that up.
It's a hard decision to make. I can't point to any one thing that will conclusively let you make that decision, since every noob is different and they all universally commit mistakes.
No, I thought you were scum. There's a lot in your posts that points to you being obvious scum, but I didn't remember(or outright ignored the fact) that it points to you being a newb as well.
Because I can't remember which it was. There are likely other possibilities too.No, I thought you were scum. There's a lot in your posts that points to you being obvious scum, but I didn't remember(or outright ignored the fact) that it points to you being a newb as well.
Why would you include the possibility of you ignoring something?
Argh.
Then how did you come to think that Shark is newbtown over newbscum?
This ties in to your other question, he's been my top scumpick for most of this day. I was originally suspicious of him because it seemed like he was trying to get attention off of him by attacking me, it's in the post where I vote him on page 10. This would actually turn out to be true, but I ended up freaking out because no one believed me at the start, which would later lead to me posting bullshit arguments. Later on, I unvoted because I decided that he was probably misguided town, and now, because of his recent posts, i'm thinking he's scum again. The fact that he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him. In this case, he was scared of you?
No, I thought you were scum. There's a lot in your posts that points to you being obvious scum, but I didn't remember(or outright ignored the fact) that it points to you being a newb as well.
Orangebottle, who do you suspect?I still semi-suspect Shark because he keeps repeating
he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him.like it's true. However, it's very likely that he's just newbtown.
Orangebottle, who do you suspect?I still semi-suspect Shark because he keeps repeatinghe attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him.like it's true. However, it's very likely that he's just newbtown.
I'm going to go look for something that's suspicious.
Probably either Shark or you. I'd likely go after you first since your last post was all the way back here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685560#msg2685560) and consisted of a refusal to answer questions directed at you until Shark answered a question of yours that he had already answered.
You mean the question where he asked me who I thought was most scummy and it was a toss-up between him and OB?
You mean the question where he asked me who I thought was most scummy and it was a toss-up between him and OB?
Yes, that one, except you could have actually said that it was a toss-up instead of refusing to answer it at the time.
Diakron: If you're having trouble getting back into the groove, play a few BM games where you can ask for help and get back up to speed.I don't like this.
Regardless, my vote stays on you until either you can prove you're not scum or someone scummier slips up.
How about instead of tunneling Shark (no, I'm not saying drop anything you might have), you take a look at everyone else?I didn't say I was trying to find something suspicious about shark. I've already re-analyzed all of Shark's posts and concluded that I can't really call him scum because most of the scummy things he's done could easily be a newb being confused about something or not knowing that it's scummy. So why are you even bringing it up?
And don't try to make anything up.
Oppose ShortenI like the intent of this post. However, you get 72 hours to figure it out and post some stuff. When you finally post a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686095#msg2686095) it ends up being a massive contradiction. Instead of hunting the person who looks like the worst scum on the face of the earth(me), you go after someone you say is likely "newb town".
Just because someone claims scum doesn't mean we can't hunt for their partner in the meanwhile.
I'm going to have to reread this before I can make a case on the second scum; posting from my phone atm.
Thing is, if you know Shark's a newb, why are you even asking him any of those questions? There are few things in that post could actually lead to you firmly believing that Shark is scum.
Native:Diakron: If you're having trouble getting back into the groove, play a few BM games where you can ask for help and get back up to speed.I don't like this.
Regardless, my vote stays on you until either you can prove you're not scum or someone scummier slips up.
After catching Diakron, you proceed to do little to no scumhunting for the rest of the day. There's more than one scum at this point, so why weren't you hunting while the first was pinned down?
How about instead of tunneling Shark (no, I'm not saying drop anything you might have), you take a look at everyone else?I didn't say I was trying to find something suspicious about shark. I've already re-analyzed all of Shark's posts and concluded that I can't really call him scum because most of the scummy things he's done could easily be a newb being confused about something or not knowing that it's scummy. So why are you even bringing it up?
And don't try to make anything up.
Did you miss the part where it was obvious in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684116#msg2684116) post?
I'll be back in around 16 hours to post.
Did you miss the part where it was obvious in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684116#msg2684116) post?
I missed the part where saying something makes is still true eighteen hours later, and I most definitely missed the part where you continued to question Orangebottle, the person Shark was supposedly tied with for scumminess, after unvoting him.
I'll be back in around 16 hours to post.
That's about an hour and a half from day end. Extend.
Eh, after I caught him I got complacent, I suppose. But it also was a pretty busy week for me (you can check in other games I was in around that time if you really need to confirm it).I'm trying to scumhunt you; it isn't my job to prove your defense valid.
I wasn't saying that you were (though I see where you may have thought I implied it), what I was saying is that this entire day all it seems like you've been doing is tunneling Shark, and I don't like that. I brought it up because you've hardly given anyone else a glance and I'm curious as to your thoughts on the people you've seem to have forgotten about.Your exact words were,"Instead of tunneling Shark". How was I supposed to interpret it in any other way? And if that's what you meant, why didn't you say it in the first place?
Eh, after I caught him I got complacent, I suppose. But it also was a pretty busy week for me (you can check in other games I was in around that time if you really need to confirm it).I'm trying to scumhunt you; it isn't my job to prove your defense valid.
So you're busy. Why wouldn't you tell us? You didn't say a word about it during the entire day.
You still post quite frequently, what with being busy and all. My problem wasn't with you lurking; it was with you not scumhunting.
Your exact words were,"Instead of tunneling Shark". How was I supposed to interpret it in any other way? And if that's what you meant, why didn't you say it in the first place?
As for my opinions(Genuine this time, not made-up shit):
Arathos is somewhat suspicious. I really don't like that he was hunting someone he thought was newbtown (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686095#msg2686095). I guess I'll have to wait until he gets in here and answers me. Until then, he's not looking very town.
Native, your day one actions don't really look like town actions to me. Sure, you ended up lynching scum on the first day. Kudos. But for most of the day, you just sat there not really hunting anybody. It's not what I expect from experienced players such as yourself. You're not very town either.
Imiknorris seems to be doing exactly what others criticized me for: hopping in and pointing shit out to look active. Specifically, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2682865#msg2682865), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683023#msg2683023), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2680316#msg2680316) if you want some proof.
I'd like to know why.
Jim? He's being Jim. That's probably the only valid opinion i'll ever have on him, too. There's a tiny bit of what looks like wine at the beginning of today (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2682671#msg2682671), but other than that I can't find any real suspicions on him at this point.
Shark is a total scrub and my attack on him was a huge mistake that seems to have cost the town it's victory. My apologies in advance.
I like the intent of this post. However, you get 72 hours to figure it out and post some stuff. When you finally post a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686095#msg2686095) it ends up being a massive contradiction. Instead of hunting the person who looks like the worst scum on the face of the earth(me), you go after someone you say is likely "newb town".
Thing is, if you know someone's a newb, why are you even asking him any of those questions? There are few things in that post could actually lead to you firmly believing that Shark is scum.
Arathos: It's one thing to be tired, but to vote for someone you said was probably newbtown in the very same post? Come on. At the time, what made Shark a more likely candidate for scum than OB?
I like the intent of this post. However, you get 72 hours to figure it out and post some stuff. When you finally post a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686095#msg2686095) it ends up being a massive contradiction. Instead of hunting the person who looks like the worst scum on the face of the earth(me), you go after someone you say is likely "newb town".
Thing is, if you know someone's a newb, why are you even asking him any of those questions? There are few things in that post could actually lead to you firmly believing that Shark is scum.
Arathos: It's one thing to be tired, but to vote for someone you said was probably newbtown in the very same post? Come on. At the time, what made Shark a more likely candidate for scum than OB?
Imiknorris seems to be doing exactly what others criticized me for: hopping in and pointing shit out to look active. Specifically, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2682865#msg2682865), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683023#msg2683023), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2680316#msg2680316) if you want some proof.
I'd like to know why.
Shark is a total scrub and my attack on him was a huge mistake that seems to have cost the town it's victory. My apologies in advance.
McArathos: Okay, ignoring the newbtown thing, can you answer the question? At the time, what made Shark a more likely candidate for scum than OB? Or was he never a more likely candidate?
And your argument isn't very strong, so I'm not going to through the effort of proving it to you.Then you have no defense from it.
Yes, I post frequently, but they're small posts with little content, I had neither the time nor will to go through the effort of scumhunting. Nothing new was going to come out of D1.That's the very definition of active lurking. Which is why you should've said that you were busy back in day one instead of bringing it up now.
But I didn't say that is was suspicious things that Shark did that you were going back to look for, I was saying that you've been tunneling Shark and I would like you to do something other than that.Except, by asking me to stop tunneling shark right after I say that I'm going to go look for suspicious things, that's exactly what you're saying.
But I didn't say that is was suspicious things that Shark did that you were going back to look for, I was saying that you've been tunneling Shark and I would like you to do something other than that.Which you're doing now, kudos to you. Also, I did say that... by accusing you of tunneling, it's implied that you weren't looking at anybody else. That's kind of what tunneling is...Are you sure? You don't seem very confident about it.
You did, however point out something I missed.We've already been over this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2688430#msg2688430) Stop trying to deflect onto Arathos.
Arathos: It's one thing to be tired, but to vote for someone you said was probably newbtown in the very same post? Come on. At the time, what made Shark a more likely candidate for scum than OB?
You said, in that post "You never meant to vote shark in the first place." This is about you making a case on someone you consider to be newb town.I like the intent of this post. However, you get 72 hours to figure it out and post some stuff. When you finally post a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686095#msg2686095) it ends up being a massive contradiction. Instead of hunting the person who looks like the worst scum on the face of the earth(me), you go after someone you say is likely "newb town".
So, we're back to this, are we? I figured we were done harassing me about my big fuckup with voting shark when you said you understood me now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2689250#msg2689250).
You've admitted to making shit up to get Jim to stop questioning you; if that's not cracking under pressure I don't know what is. You didn't hunt scum, you didn't convince him your case on Shark was worth pursuing (or really pursue a decent case on anyone), and instead resorted to just kicking up dirt in the hopes he'd eventually give up and go away. That is the behavior of someone who is TERRIFIED of being lynched.Okay. What's your point?
This bullshit with my misvote is just that: bullshit. See, I expected people to say "What the fuck, McArathos" and make me explain myself. I did. You accepted my explanation. Now, when the heat is on, suddenly it's suspicious again. You're looking for a scapegoat to get the heat off you.BZZZZZZZZZZT.
No, because they also lead to proof he's a newb.Thing is, if you know someone's a newb, why are you even asking him any of those questions? There are few things in that post could actually lead to you firmly believing that Shark is scum.
Really? Asking him to explain his refusal to build a case, or why he is defending instead of scumhunting can't possibly lead to proof he's scum?
Demanding he explain why he's trying to guilt the town out of voting him with his "This could be MYLO, you can't lynch me" shit isn't attacking a scummy move? (You've done the same thing, by the way, and gave less than satisfactory answers for it).Because he's new.
Wanting him to answer for the VERY scummy request that a vigilante reveal itself despite common sense making it clear this is only an anti-town decision isn't attacking him for scummy behavior?He didn't know it was scummy.
Fuck that, Orangebottle. I had plenty to get out of questioning him, and I got it. He broke town, so I switched focus to you.You're pretty pissed off about this, aren't you? If my case on you is just me looking for a scapegoat instead of an actual concern(hint: it isn't), why are you so angry about it?
Bam (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685807#msg2685807). Right there. Also right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686249#msg2686249).Imiknorris seems to be doing exactly what others criticized me for: hopping in and pointing shit out to look active. Specifically, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2682865#msg2682865), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683023#msg2683023), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2680316#msg2680316) if you want some proof.
I'd like to know why.
I would like to see where you're being criticized for "hopping in and pointing shit out to look active." I can't seem to find it, unless you think that pointing things out == making things up.
I've also been questioning people on the things I've pointed out. If I find something that I think is suspicious, I am going to make sure that other people see it, and I am going to get an explanation for it.So have I (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684145#msg2684145).
-I'm afraid I don't see how the first example is at all what you're talking about - I was agreeing with Jim that the second nightkill was probably a vig, and asking questions of you and Shark.Compare them to (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683316#msg2683316) my examples (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684938#msg2684938); you'll find that you were doing the same thing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685405#msg2685405).
-The second post was an attempt to get Native to post - I occasionally check other players' profile pages and if I see they've been online recently, but haven't posted, I assume they were lurking until told otherwise.
-The third post should have had a bit more information - I was going to question Andrew about his position on musicalcakes D2.
What makes you think you can get away with threatening a town loss to avoid being lynched? You were even the one who pointed out that Shark was doing it. It's a scumtell, you know it is, and you did it anyway. You better have a damn good reason for it.Not threatening, promising.
And your argument isn't very strong, so I'm not going to through the effort of proving it to you.Then you have no defense from it.
QuoteYes, I post frequently, but they're small posts with little content, I had neither the time nor will to go through the effort of scumhunting. Nothing new was going to come out of D1.That's the very definition of active lurking. Which is why you should've said that you were busy back in day one instead of bringing it up now.
QuoteBut I didn't say that is was suspicious things that Shark did that you were going back to look for, I was saying that you've been tunneling Shark and I would like you to do something other than that.Except, by asking me to stop tunneling shark right after I say that I'm going to go look for suspicious things, that's exactly what you're saying.QuoteBut I didn't say that is was suspicious things that Shark did that you were going back to look for, I was saying that you've been tunneling Shark and I would like you to do something other than that.Which you're doing now, kudos to you. Also, I did say that... by accusing you of tunneling, it's implied that you weren't looking at anybody else. That's kind of what tunneling is...Are you sure? You don't seem very confident about it.
You did, however point out something I missed.We've already been over this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2688430#msg2688430) Stop trying to deflect onto Arathos.
Arathos: It's one thing to be tired, but to vote for someone you said was probably newbtown in the very same post? Come on. At the time, what made Shark a more likely candidate for scum than OB?
I'd roleclaim, but that would just confuse everybody and get me lynched even harder than I'm about to be right now.
QuoteWhat makes you think you can get away with threatening a town loss to avoid being lynched? You were even the one who pointed out that Shark was doing it. It's a scumtell, you know it is, and you did it anyway. You better have a damn good reason for it.Not threatening, promising.
It's entirely impossible to defend myself at this point. I have been completely discredited as far as this game goes. I'm not even sure why I'm still hunting at this point, given that nobody's going to actually listen what I have to say instead of dismissing it as something from the mouth of a flailing scum.
I'd roleclaim, but that would just confuse everybody and get me lynched even harder than I'm about to be right now.I agree with the "lynch you harder" bit - any pro-town role you could claim would be Wine.
It wasn't a big deal then and it shouldn't be now. The only reason you're bringing it up is because you're scrambling for something to get you off the block.Since when has active lurking not been a big deal?
I see you've managed to misinterpret my snide response, bravo. Of course I'm sure. That's exactly what tunneling is. I was being snide about it because you didn't seem to understand what I meant by saying you were tunneling Shark.I understand exactly what 'You're tunneling Shark' means.
What the hell am I trying to deflect onto Arathos? Myself? That's the only thing I can think of. Seriously, stop scrambling. Especially since my actual question to him hadn't (to my knowledge) been answered before.My suspicion.
Very. At least, it confuses the hell out of me.QuoteI'd roleclaim, but that would just confuse everybody and get me lynched even harder than I'm about to be right now.
And the difference between being lynch hard and being lynched harder is...? I think you're just trying to stir up enough wine so that people start to rethink lynching you. This is a simple setup, how confusing can your claim be?
That is exactly what I'm saying.QuoteWhat makes you think you can get away with threatening a town loss to avoid being lynched? You were even the one who pointed out that Shark was doing it. It's a scumtell, you know it is, and you did it anyway. You better have a damn good reason for it.Not threatening, promising.
It's entirely impossible to defend myself at this point. I have been completely discredited as far as this game goes. I'm not even sure why I'm still hunting at this point, given that nobody's going to actually listen what I have to say instead of dismissing it as something from the mouth of a flailing scum.
Oh? Are you saying that our "vig" is actually a Serial Killer, leading to a 1v1v1 or 2v1v1 scenario that town can't win? Are you promising that one of those scenarios will occur? Because I can't think of any other scenario where town has no chance of victory.QuoteI'd roleclaim, but that would just confuse everybody and get me lynched even harder than I'm about to be right now.I agree with the "lynch you harder" bit - any pro-town role you could claim would be Wine.
Variations
A Mafia Roleblocker may or may not be allowed to perform the mafia kill the same Night they are also performing a roleblock. (This applies to other Mafia roles as well.) The decision of whether to allow the last Mafioso to kill and use their role at the same time is usually based on what would make the game better-balanced. In Newbie games, the Mafia Roleblocker is allowed to perform both only if they are the last member of their team left.
I am the Cop. I was roleblocked last night.
Now tell me how we can explain the double-kill that we woke to this morning barring Simple letting the scum do both in the same night(which there is no precedence for in a straightforward game).
Now tell me how we can explain the double-kill that we woke to this morning barring Simple letting the scum do both in the same night(which there is no precedence for in a straightforward game).
Unvote for now.I've never seen it happen before.
For small games with small scumteams having a single scum being able to nightkill and use their role isn't so uncommon.
Your claim is incomplete. Who were you planning on inspecting during Night 1?Ah, I knew I forgot something.
And what kind of Cop gets roleblocked on Night 1? That's kind of unbelievable.Jim, how is it unbelievable that I got roleblocked on night one?
If somebody can counterclaim they should.That goes unsaid.
MOD: If the last Mafioso is a Roleblocker, are they allowed to perform both a block and their factional kill?Yes.
If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.This is WIFOM. Now the scum has a reason to let him live, or could just roleblock him again (assuming he actually was roleblocked) and get the best of both worlds.
This ties in to your other question, he's been my top scumpick for most of this day. I was originally suspicious of him because it seemed like he was trying to get attention off of him by attacking me, it's in the post where I vote him on page 10. This would actually turn out to be true, but I ended up freaking out because no one believed me at the start, which would later lead to me posting bullshit arguments. Later on, I unvoted because I decided that he was probably misguided town, and now, because of his recent posts, i'm thinking he's scum again. The fact that he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him. In this case, he was scared of you?
I see you have a conveniently malleable opinion of Orangebottle's scumminess that roughly corresponds to how close you are to being lynched. I never expressed it properly, too busy panicing. Didn't realize how dumb it would look. Either way it's changed now with his roleclaim, i'm going to reread all the posts carefully and make a new opinion.
There's nothing Orangebottle did differently, except get attacked by me, and admit he made stuff up, so why the change in opinion before those two points? I don't really get this question. What exactly are you referring to? Because I don't remember changing my opinion drastically before orange said he made things up.
Further, your case is my case, but simplified. Do you have anything original to add? I think I did at the moment but I've forgotten because I never write anything down unless I post about it. I've been thinking about what's currently going on and forgot about these questions. Yes, I know this seems like a rather convenient answer so I don't have to say anything, but I can't think of anything to say.
If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.This is WIFOM. Now the scum has a reason to let him live, or could just roleblock him again (assuming he actually was roleblocked) and get the best of both worlds.
-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.
Oh yeah, my answers to jim in the post I just made are underlined, inside his quote. I should have said that at the top of the post.
I don't really get this question. What exactly are you referring to? Because I don't remember changing my opinion drastically before orange said he made things up.
Later on, I unvoted because I decided that he was probably misguided town, and now, because of his recent posts, i'm thinking he's scum again. The fact that he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him. In this case, he was scared of you?
I think I did at the moment but I've forgotten because I never write anything down unless I post about it. I've been thinking about what's currently going on and forgot about these questions. Yes, I know this seems like a rather convenient answer so I don't have to say anything, but I can't think of anything to say.
If you had been correct about the roleblock/nightkill scenario, why would you assume that both the mafia and the SK would hit town?Mmf. Honestly, I don't know how to answer this. There are so many things I could say, but they'd likely be more made-up shit and I don't want to do that again.
What about the actual vig (who would have to exist in your scenario)?In what scenario? I stated facts, my role and what happened to me on night one when I tried to inspect Andrew. A vigilante doesn't have to exist in the scenarios that result from this; there could just be two scum left and an SK. There could also be a town roleblocker, a scum, and an SK. Hence why I was so confused.
It is entirely possible that two killers could try to kill the same person, considering that three out of five living players would have kills, and if one of the two people killed in that case was scum, town would still be able to win.True, but you aren't considering all the possible situations.
-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
Orangebottle, are you sure that you were roleblocked, or did your investigation simply return nothing because andrew died? This might be a really dumb question but I don't know how roleblocking works.Absolutely. The return PM clearly stated, in bold letters, You have been roleblocked. The flavor was something about extremely strong whiskey mysteriously appearing next to my bedroll.
My question is why orange is roleclaiming. If he's telling the truth and we lynch someone else/no lynch, he's probably going to be killed by scum anyway. If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.My actions prior to the claim were extremely scummy. It's hard to predict what the scum will do when we have no idea who they are(and no real suspects besides me), and even then it would be a flimsy meta argument. Then, if we're wrong, the actual scum would use this to generate more WIFOM.
I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night? Also, you raise a good point about town roleblockers being a thing that could happen - but if the roleblocker is town, then why does you being roleblocked mean that there's a SK and not a vig, as you said?QuoteWhat about the actual vig (who would have to exist in your scenario)?In what scenario? I stated facts, my role and what happened to me on night one when I tried to inspect Andrew. A vigilante doesn't have to exist in the scenarios that result from this; there could just be two scum left and an SK. There could also be a town roleblocker, a scum, and an SK. Hence why I was so confused.
Neither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.QuoteIt is entirely possible that two killers could try to kill the same person, considering that three out of five living players would have kills, and if one of the two people killed in that case was scum, town would still be able to win.True, but you aren't considering all the possible situations.
Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?Quote-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?
I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.
Also, you raise a good point about town roleblockers being a thing that could happen - but if the roleblocker is town, then why does you being roleblocked mean that there's a SK and not a vig, as you said?It makes it much less likely that there would be a vigilante because that town would be massively overpowered.
Neither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.Because you asked me to? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2690716#msg2690716)
Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?...
Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.
...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?
This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?
Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.
...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?
But there were only two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2667749#msg2667749) mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.
I gave you a chance because I will do what I have to to secure town victory. I believed you because you said that not doing so would have resulted in a town loss tonight. It was only later, when I went back, that I realized that my guess of your "promise" didn't match up with the information you gave, and by extension:QuoteNeither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.Because you asked me to? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2690716#msg2690716)
That is exactly what I'm saying.Neither did your reason for claiming.
QuoteBecause vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?...
Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?
This answer from Orangebottle is completely fair; a scummy player who isn't lynched should DEFINITELY be a priority for either a cop inspect or a vig; with no way to coordinate through private chat like the scumteam, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that a cop and vig would target the same person (especially when that person was so far ahead of the pack in scummy behavior like Andrew),
I also don't like that you're acting like "Well, of COURSE it's a Vig" as though we all knew that D1. A "Vig Me" sign implies there is a Vigilante to vig-kill. We haven't even confirmed that there is a vig instead of an SK (though you're all fairly certain, it seems, of this scenario for some rather compelling reasons), yet you're attacking his claim because A) he should have known there was a vigilante, and B) expected the vigilante (which he didn't know existed but should have, apparently) to kill his target.
Sounds flimsy at best, and scummy at worst Imiknorris.I'd beg to differ.
Orangebottle:But there were only two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2667749#msg2667749) mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.
MOD: If the last Mafioso is a Roleblocker, are they allowed to perform both a block and their factional kill?Yes.
Honestly? I can't answer that. I can only tell you what I'd do in that scenario - assume that there was a vig (because Murphy's law would screw me for assuming otherwise) and investigate someone I couldn't get a read on. I'll drop it.
Why assume a Vigilante? It's a possible role, not a guaranteed role.Because I would find it safer to assume that there was a vig than to possiby waste an investigation.
If you're dropping it now, why did you bring it up in the first place, and what were you hoping to gain by doing so?I didn't understand why OB would have investigated Andrew - he was basing the success of his investigation on whether or not there was a vig. I wanted to hear his reasoning, and I did.
NativeForeigner, you haven't posted since Orangebottle's claim. Thoughts about it?
But there were only two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2667749#msg2667749) mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?
I gave you a chance because I will do what I have to to secure town victory. I believed you because you said that not doing so would have resulted in a town loss tonight. It was only later, when I went back, that I realized that my guess of your "promise" didn't match up with the information you gave, and by extension:
Neither did your reason for claiming.
Because my understanding was that the scum team can kill every night, regardless, and the power roles can use their roles as long as they're alive. If it's different here, that does indeed say something mighty important about Orangebottle's claim.
It was pretty damn confusing to me. A Roleblocker + Mafioso scumteam along with an Vigilante + Cop town? Seems pretty stacked in the town's favor. Then there's the whole double-kill situation, which confused me up until Simple gave us his answer because it means that it could be RB+MAF, SK, VIG+COP, which is absolutely brutal on the mafia. Or(and more likely in my mind for whatever reason before Imiknorris brought up the number of scum) there could be MAF+(something)+RB, COP+TOWN, SK, or MAF+(something)+RB, COP+VIG+TOWN. The last two were the only ones I could conclude, and aNativeForeigner, you haven't posted since Orangebottle's claim. Thoughts about it?
I'm not sure I believe it, too many holes and it feels last-ditch to me.
OB: You said your claim would be confusing. How the hell is a cop-claim confusing?
I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lying - you'd argue that I should know how many scum there are, that it's a really important number, and that no way I could've forgotten it. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?
I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lying - you'd argue that I should know how many scum there are, that it's a really important number, and that no way I could've forgotten it. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?
You know what? I feel like an idiot. This mistake is making you look more like flailing town than flailing scum. If you were mafia, you'd know damn well how many mafia there were, because you'd be the only one left. Unvote.
Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?
Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lying - you'd argue that I should know how many scum there are, that it's a really important number, and that no way I could've forgotten it. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?
You know what? I feel like an idiot. This mistake is making you look more like flailing town than flailing scum. If you were mafia, you'd know damn well how many mafia there were, because you'd be the only one left. Unvote.
Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?
So my case sounds like yours. What's your point? Do you really expect every part of every case from every person to be completely unique, or at least reworded to be unrecognizable? If that's what you really expect, then you're going to be really disappointed.No, but I would expect that you would at least question him about the holes in his argument. One question about why he was reluctant to claim isn't enough.
Another thing, I haven't seen you ask ANYONE questions other than OB, and that worries me. I want your opinion on everybody and I want you to start hunting someone other than OB, even if it's me. Now.McArathos: He's been doing a good job of questioning my intentions. Probably town.
Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?
QuoteSo my case sounds like yours. What's your point? Do you really expect every part of every case from every person to be completely unique, or at least reworded to be unrecognizable? If that's what you really expect, then you're going to be really disappointed.No, but I would expect that you would at least question him about the holes in his argument. One question about why he was reluctant to claim isn't enough.
You: You know what I find strange? You weren't hunting anyone except Orangebottle either (if you can even call that hunting). If you're going to call me out for not hunting anyone else, at least have the sense to hunt other people yourself.
Native, expect questions to answer.
Extend.
Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?
Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?
Regardless, my vote stays on you until either you can prove you're not scum or someone scummier slips up.Again, the burden of proof is on the town, not the scum. Yes, I have pointed this out before - we'll get back to that.
Why are you being so cautious? Ask questions, assert your suspicious, apply some pressure. Don't just sit around and wait.You then proceed to sit on your vote against Diakron for the rest of the day, save for a bit of poking at Andrew. Why? Why not pressure Andrew while your vote remains on Diakron?
What are your thoughts on what I pointed out about OB in my last post?He's either scum or really confused - I see more of the latter, especially considering that he's having similar problems in Ockham's Mafia as well.
Quite simply, you're not approaching this with a town mentality, and trying to bullshit your way out of a lynch is borderline obvscumming.
So, you give people crap for the same reason you were about to lynch Orangebottle over?
I want answers. Unless we extend again, we have less than a day. I won't be here in a couple hours, and won't get back until about 1.5 hours before day ends. We need to find something. It he has good reasons, i'll drop the vote. It's obvious at this point that this game doesn't have hammers, orangebottle had 4 votes on him at one point.Extend.
Nice of you to do that.
Who do you suspect? A player that pounded on some newbie, admitted to making up a bunch of stuff to appease me, claimed Cop that was roleblocked on Night 1, and now doesn't have any suspicions, sounds pretty fishy to me.Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?
So, you give people crap for the same reason you were about to lynch Orangebottle over?Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?
Right.
Is that the only thing you suspect him for?
OB: I can see where that would be seen as confusing. I haven't seen you asking a lot of questions either, only defending yourself. Now that the pressure is slightly off, who do you suspect and why?Hrm. Well, Shark is still screaming newb vibes, and i'm unsure of how to tell the difference between town and scum when the person in question is a newb. I'm not getting very good vibes from Imiknorris, and I'll probably find something to ask him about. Jim is still Jim, and I have no idea how to read Jim. You're on the same level as Imiknorris, Native. Arathos....hrm. I'm not sure.
Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.
Already told you, didn't pressure Andrew because I got busy and I felt nothing else useful would come out of D1.You can always get more useful information during the day. Why did you feel that nothing useful would come out of day one?
And what happened? Any poking or pressuring on Andrew would have been wasted effort.You could've pressured someone else. Anyone else.
I did get ninja'd, it happens a lot when several people are active and it'll happen to you.He posted his case a good ~19 minutes before you. If you were making the post when Shark posted his argument, you would've had a "Warning - a new reply has been posted, you may wish to edit your post." message and if you had it all prepared beforehand, then you had plenty of time to read it considering that there's a topic summary right beneath the window I'm putting this text into right now. That's generously assuming that you missed it when you went into the topic to hit the reply button, since it would've been two posts above the bottom of the page.
I think he only stopped tunneling Shark because everybody was catching on to him, and now that he can't go after the weakest player, he doesn't know what to do. Evident by his lack of questioning and suspicions.I was in my Microsoft Office Certification class. I just got home from school about an hour ago.
Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?Really? The only other case I can see of me accusing someone of parroting was me asking Native (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683127#msg2683127) if he was just going to parrot you (and Jim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2684143#msg2684143)) or actually contribute. Would you mind pointing out any others I missed?
...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.Just the people who haven't posted in a while.
Why are you using incomplete meta-evidence? I've heard that using evidence from other active games is frowned apon. There's also the part where using this evidence is bad because I could be scum in both games, or neither, or only scum in one of them. That's the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to use that evidence here.Good point.
I didn't misunderstand anything, that's what you were saying. It's not MY job to prove that somebody else is town. That's there own damn job. Why would I try to prove the very person I think is scum is town?No. The job of the person you vote is not to prove that they're town. Your job as their accuser is to prove that they're scum.
So in either case, why are you trying to protect OB? He lied and you're trying to tell me that he's confused town, citing a completely different game as evidence?
I didn't misunderstand anything, that's what you were saying. It's not MY job to prove that somebody else is town. That's there own damn job. Why would I try to prove the very person I think is scum is town?No. The job of the person you vote is not to prove that they're town. Your job as their accuser is to prove that they're scum.
Now that I've actually been asked this, I guess I won't be able to get it to work:
Trying to figure out whether you or Orangebottle was scummier wasn't being productive - OB's claim is flawed, and you were being rather passive about it. I decided that I could cover both bases and eliminate uncertainty on my part by leaving Orangebottle alive. He'd probably get vigged, so even if I was wrong about you, my other most likely suspect would be killed as well.
I'm sorry for how I've been playing today. I probably shouldn't try to play Mafia while stressed - it will just piss me off, which will hurt my case. Unvote. I'm going to bed.
I don't like this. The burden of proof that someone is scum IS on the town, but saying "I'm not convinced anyone else is scummier than you so I'm not unvoting" is a valid attitude, as is the statement that it's up to an individual player to prove they're town. The burden of proving their innocence IS on the alleged scum, either by defeating the arguments against them or finding a proper target (ideally both). Imiknorris should know this, and this is just an attempt to make Native look scummy for not unvoting OB.Regardless, my vote stays on you until either you can prove you're not scum or someone scummier slips up.Again, the burden of proof is on the town, not the scum. Yes, I have pointed this out before - we'll get back to that.
You then proceed to sit on your vote against Diakron for the rest of the day, save for a bit of poking at Andrew. Why? Why not pressure Andrew while your vote remains on Diakron?
Day 2: You begin by parroting Shark (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683079#msg2683079), using the lame excuse of "I got ninja'd." When I asked you about the burden-of-proof post above, you proceeded to misunderstand it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685171#msg2685171) and assume I meant that town's goal was to prove that the scum were town. That makes no sense at all, so why would you assume that I meant it that way? Then your entire case against Orangebottle was that he was tunneling on Shark, which isn't much by itself. Then OB claimed and you just said that it was full of holes, without actually exploring any of them. Why so passive?
So, if your vote's on Orangebottle because he was tunneling on Shark and his claim is full of holes:
What do you think of the fact that he stopped tunneling on Shark?
Would you like to point out some of these holes, other than the one that's already been discussed regarding the mafia miscount?
He's either scum or really confused - I see more of the latter, especially considering that he's having similar problems in Ockham's Mafia as well.
McArathos, Jim, Orangebottle: Where do your suspicions lie?
I'm pretty sure that was more than just a statement.QuoteWhy are you using incomplete meta-evidence? I've heard that using evidence from other active games is frowned apon. There's also the part where using this evidence is bad because I could be scum in both games, or neither, or only scum in one of them. That's the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to use that evidence here.Good point.
Why omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.
Native:Perhaps it's because I'm posting from my iPod, but I can't find it. If you want me to respond to or answer a specific part of your post, point it out so I can do exactly that.QuoteWhy omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.
Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2690722#msg2690722) post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2692657#msg2692657) post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.
...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.
I want answers. Unless we extend again, we have less than a day. I won't be here in a couple hours, and won't get back until about 1.5 hours before day ends. We need to find something. It he has good reasons, i'll drop the vote. It's obvious at this point that this game doesn't have hammers, orangebottle had 4 votes on him at one point.
Trying to figure out whether you or Orangebottle was scummier wasn't being productive - OB's claim is flawed, and you were being rather passive about it. I decided that I could cover both bases and eliminate uncertainty on my part by leaving Orangebottle alive. He'd probably get vigged, so even if I was wrong about you, my other most likely suspect would be killed as well.
I give people crap for not adding to the discussion.
Jim: Bizarrely timid and quiet...for Jim anyway.
Also, do you suspect anyone? Time's running out and you mostly just call people out on their arguments whenever they try to get aggresive.
McArathos, Jim, Orangebottle: Where do your suspicions lie?
Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2690722#msg2690722) post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2692657#msg2692657) post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.Oh. That is rather important, isn't it.
I always thought it was the opposite. That if you have a single scum left, he could only kill OR roleblock. I've people say things like,"Okay, you kill X so I can roleblock Y." in scumchats I've read before. I guess it just differs from mod to mod.
I still can't think of a reason of this beyond personal preference.QuoteWhy omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.
I still can't think of a reason of this beyond personal preference.
Doesn't matter what role you think might be in the game. Vote who you think is scum. It's the only way to be safe.
Meanwhile, why all the waffling? To record, you voted Orangebottle, unvoted him, voted him again, then unvoted him, voted NativeForeigner, and then unvoted NativeForeigner.
Not a lot's happened that warranted such rapid changes in votes because of things they did, so the only thing that did is you. What's going on?
The same crap you agreed with not moments prior? I can understand (to a certain extent) freaking out about who is or isn't scum, since I've been there as a player. But to turn around on the people you agreed with and to suspect them for the case you abandoned a little ago?
That's... weird. I don't think I've seen anything quite like that before. If you thought a case was good up until you decided to change your mind on the spur of the moment, why are you giving people crap for having that same case?
Your plan relies on the vig actually being a vig and not a SK masquerading. Were you really ready to take that chance?Yes. I don't think we'll be able to find out one way or another until the last mafia dies, so in the meantime I might as well.
You know better. [times several]I really should. I don't exactly know what the hell I was thinking myself, which is why I've shitcanned that case.
Coupled with the fact that I had a real issue with how he was attacking OB about the whole vig scenario (summarized a lot better here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2692404#msg2692404)), I feel Urist Imiknorris thought he had a good mislynch target, did a piss-poor job of making a "unique" case on him (because apparently he believes having a similar case is a scumtell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2693875#msg2693875), and thus wouldn't want to make the same mistake), and is switching his focus to the allegedly lurky Native.You seem to be forgetting that I chalked the vig case up to playstyle differences, and began focusing more on the fact that his cases relied on there being multiple scum left for some reason.
Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2690722#msg2690722) post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2692657#msg2692657) post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.Oh. That is rather important, isn't it.
See, that second post demonstrated me not knowing the maximum amount of scum left. Before the first one, you were all talking about how we were hunting the last scum, or the scum's partner. Posts like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2679701#msg2679701) and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683667#msg2683667)(Yes. I am aware that it's Diakron's 'Bah!' post.).There's also that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685191#msg2685191). I went along with it, but when I got to the confusing part I was like,"Doesn't this mean that there could be more than just one scum left?"
I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lyingI believed it, realizing that it would be much easier to forget how many scum there were if you were town than if you were scum. Oh wait, those are Wine thoughts. I don't know why I believed you, given that you had just gotten past making shit up to get Jim's attention off of you before you made that roleclaim. On the other hand, I would not put it past you to try to disguise Wine. Now I know why I kept flipping between thinking you were town and scum while I was pouring shit all over Native - I got "drunk" (to continue the wine comparison) by believing you. That's clever. Die.. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?Spoiler: In more than one way (click to show/hide)
Also, by ignoring I meant "missing what he said". I probably should have said that instead.It still answers your question either way, because the referenced text is in the past tense.
Funny, that. It's almost like there ISN'T a reason beyond personal preference.Yeah, I'll admit that and drop the point.
...Yes? And?Oh. That is rather important, isn't it.
See, that second post demonstrated me not knowing the maximum amount of scum left. Before the first one, you were all talking about how we were hunting the last scum, or the scum's partner. Posts like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2679701#msg2679701) and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2683667#msg2683667)(Yes. I am aware that it's Diakron's 'Bah!' post.).There's also that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2685191#msg2685191). I went along with it, but when I got to the confusing part I was like,"Doesn't this mean that there could be more than just one scum left?"
The problem is that (as Native pointed out) your claim and insistence on an SK were based on the assumption that there was only one scum left.
The "confusing part" came before that, didn't it?I got confused when I started to think about exactly what the night action meant, which was right before my claim.
You were "confused" about how there could be two kills and a roleblock in the same night.
If you thought there were more than one scum, you wouldn't have "promised" a town loss if you were lynched. So now we're back to the scumtell of threatening a town loss....
Also, your "defense" of your "confusion" relied on us believing this:I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lyingI believed it, realizing that it would be much easier to forget how many scum there were if you were town than if you were scum. Oh wait, those are Wine thoughts. I don't know why I believed you, given that you had just gotten past making shit up to get Jim's attention off of you before you made that roleclaim. On the other hand, I would not put it past you to try to disguise Wine. Now I know why I kept flipping between thinking you were town and scum while I was pouring shit all over Native - I got "drunk" (to continue the wine comparison) by believing you. That's clever. Die.. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?Spoiler: In more than one way (click to show/hide)
You know what? I feel like an idiot. This mistake is making you look more like flailing town than flailing scum. If you were mafia, you'd know damn well how many mafia there were, because you'd be the only one left. Unvote.This proves nothing besides the fact that you had no reason to unvote me in the first place. Because, as the bolded text shows, you started wifoming yourself. Yes, I was already wifoming myself as far as where your argument was headed. That's because I was trying to be as honest as possible and, from my point of view, there is no honest answer to the question I was answering. So I essentially answered "Nope. There's no reason for it."
Orangebottle:
This proves nothing besides the fact that you had no reason to unvote me in the first place. Because, as the bolded text shows, you started wifoming yourself. Yes, I was already wifoming myself as far as where your argument was headed. That's because I was trying to be as honest as possible and, from my point of view, there is no honest answer to the question I was answering. So I essentially answered "Nope. There's no reason for it."You and Jim are right - I never should have unvoted you. As for the self-WIFOM, that was a result of me believing you, which (as I've already stated) in hindsight I really had no reason to.
If you were so confused about the number of scum, why would you make a case that relied on there only being one, then introduce the multiple-scum theories after your claim? Surely if they were all bad for town, you'd have brought all of them up when you claimed, rather than just the one I provided?QuoteThe problem is that (as Native pointed out) your claim and insistence on an SK were based on the assumption that there was only one scum left....Yes? And?
What the fuck? If there's more than one scum AND an SK, we're boned if we lynch town. I fail to see the point of your argument.This is what I get for not thinking out your alternatives. Point dropped.
Like I told Native, I assumed there was only one scum left because people kept saying there was only one scum left.Quote from: OrangebottleIf you were so confused about the number of scum, why would you make a case that relied on there only being one, then introduce the multiple-scum theories after your claim? Surely if they were all bad for town, you'd have brought all of them up when you claimed, rather than just the one I provided?QuoteThe problem is that (as Native pointed out) your claim and insistence on an SK were based on the assumption that there was only one scum left....Yes? And?
I am the Cop. I was roleblocked last night.Note that at this point, I think the roleblocker can only roleblock or kill each night, not both at the same time. I also don't know the maximum amount of scum left in the game. This means there would need to be multiple scum.
Now tell me how we can explain the double-kill that we woke to this morning barring Simple letting the scum do both in the same night(which there is no precedence for in a straightforward game).
Looking back at your claim, I'm reminded of three things:It provided new information.
1: Your claim provided no new information.
2: You'd already been getting flak for making things up to get attention off yourself.Yes. And? That doesn't mean I'm still doing it.
3: You really didn't have anything to lose by claiming - if there was a counterclaim, you'd be just as dead as if you hadn't claimed.Okay, I'm guessing the point here is I had a reason to make up my claim. Not going to deny that at all.
Information useful to the town?QuoteLooking back at your claim, I'm reminded of three things:It provided new information.
1: Your claim provided no new information.
-I'm the cop
-We may have multiple scum left(this was later proved to be impossible)
Unvote. I didn't have any good legit reasons besides that I was trying to get someone to say something. I admit to grasping at straws.Day 1 End:After a short and heated debate you decide Diakron must be one of the thieves. "Damn you all! This was meant to be a new start, not the end!" he shouts and tries to run into the dark tunnels. But the gun is already in the Shark hands and Diakron dead body drops on the ground with a hole in the head. You quickly search his body for anything that could confirm your suspicions. It seems your choice was right one as you find a torn scrap of paper with crudely drawn mine map and a knife on him!
You throw the knife into the nearest shaft and look at the map. There's big x on it in one of the distant tunnels but without the other half of it you would need to search these mines for ages. You are too tired to carry on with the investigation so you go to sleep with the hope that tomorrow the second thief will be found.
No, because the only way my claim gets confirmed is if I die. But that wasn't your point. Your point was that it didn't provide any new information, which is inherently wrong.Information useful to the town?QuoteLooking back at your claim, I'm reminded of three things:It provided new information.
1: Your claim provided no new information.
-I'm the cop
-We may have multiple scum left(this was later proved to be impossible)
1: Remember how I said that anything you could claim would be wine? Yeah. When you claimed cop, you weren't actually telling us that you were the cop. You were telling us that you might be the cop, or that you might be scum hoping for a successful claim. The job of proving your cop-ness would have been left to three things: Getting your story straight (and very preferably grounded in reality), providing useful information (a town or scum result on a person, or a roleblock if you weren't going after someone who died that night), and/or a lack of a counterclaim. The only thing you really have going for you is the lack of a counterclaim, and given that there's no guaranteed cop, that's not enough on its own.So your case is that my claim isn't totally believable?
2: Proved to be impossible = not useful, and quite possibly a distraction.Again, your point was that my claim didn't provide any information at all.
I agree with the "lynch you harder" bit - any pro-town role you could claim would be Wine.
I'll believe your claim, but it doesn't help us all that much (yet), and I was rather hoping that it would paint a clearer image of your attention on Shark.(also note that you said that way before you wifom'd yourself)
Orangebottle's bullshitting. The maximum amount of scum is obvious if you ever read this post. See how the other half of the map is mentioned? The second thief? There's two scum. This is why we've been saying "two scum", or at least the reason I have been. I'm thinking you made up the roleblocking business to get us off of you, and to make your claim feel more legit.This proves nothing. You're making a massive assumption here: that a human being can't feasibly miss or forget something just because it was said twice. For the record, I've stated that I have no idea why I thought there wasn't a maximum limit on the amount of scumbags. You're still grasping at straws, because your whole case is "oh well there's no possible way he couldn't know it it was clearly stated in two whole posts."
Orangebottle's bullshitting. The maximum amount of scum is obvious if you ever read this post. See how the other half of the map is mentioned? The second thief? There's two scum. This is why we've been saying "two scum", or at least the reason I have been. I'm thinking you made up the roleblocking business to get us off of you, and to make your claim feel more legit.
Do I smell an OMGUS? I think I do, Shark. Also, I was pissed yesterday. That got me nowhere except halfway to the noose. Calm the fuck down or else. Also also, provide examples to support your case.
I can appreciate using your vote to get answers out of people but pretty soon the day is going to turn into night, and you should only have your vote on the person you suspect. So who is it?The problem is, if I voted orangebottle, it would have been a pressure vote. I'm trying to find holes in his claim because I don't suspect him as much right now. I just see a town player who fucked up.
JimOne(OMGUS),
i've had it with your bullshit. All you ever do is yell at people whenever they try to question people.Two(Making shit up),
You don't really DO anything, all you do is redirect attention.Three(Making MORE shit up),
This whole damn game. I'm questioning orangebottle so I can determine if he's scum or not, you told me NOT to use my vote for pressure like when I did with imiknorris, hypocrite.(Sidenote: this isn't hypocrisy. It's backpedaling.)
I'm actually accepting the answer that orangebottle made a mistake with the max scum number because mistakes happen, I make them too and it causes people like you to jump on me over complete horseshit that doesn't get crap done(Sidenote: pretty sure you done fucked up with this post.)
This whole game you've just been making yourself look good by attacking other people's arguments with other people, that's all you do. You're putting bullshit reasons to my actions without backing it up. You've been controlling this game through fear. You caused all this crap with orangebottle just because he was afraid of you. You just wait for a hole in an argument so you can call someone scum, making you look good for pointing things out. Do you actually suspect these people?(Sidenote: it was caused by me coming at the game with the wrong mindset, which is why i'm in a similar situation in two separate games)
Explain yourself. I think i've finally found who I suspect most.*CRUNCH*.
What are you going to do? Talk everyone into a crusade against me? It'll just show you control the town by fear.
The problem is, if I voted orangebottle, it would have been a pressure vote. I'm trying to find holes in his claim because I don't suspect him as much right now. I just see a town player who fucked up.You heavily implied it, if not outright stating it.
So why are you telling ME that I think he's scum?
Orangebottle's bullshitting. The maximum amount of scum is obvious if you ever read this post. See how the other half of the map is mentioned? The second thief? There's two scum. This is why we've been saying "two scum", or at least the reason I have been. I'm thinking you made up the roleblocking business to get us off of you, and to make your claim feel more legit.Think for a second: townies shouldn't do this ever. If you were honestly thinking this, you thought I was scum. Townies have nothing to gain from a fakeclaim. So, either you were lying here, or you thought I was scum.
Think for a second: townies shouldn't do this ever. If you were honestly thinking this, you thought I was scum. Townies have nothing to gain from a fakeclaim. So, either you were lying here, or you thought I was scum.There is actually one way I can think of for town to gain from a fakeclaim, but it involves a role that isn't in this game.
I'm hesitant to vote for Shark, mostly because I know what posting angry does for you. However, Shark, your case and defense better be really good. You're going to have to have a really good explanation for looking about as scummy as the guy whose claim looks like Swiss cheese to me.Funny, because your case on me is going nowhere.
There is actually one way I can think of for town to gain from a fakeclaim, but it involves a role that isn't in this game.So, in essence:
Townies have nothing to gain from a fakeclaim.
Jim, i've had it with your bullshit. All you ever do is yell at people whenever they try to question people. You don't really DO anything, all you do is redirect attention. This whole damn game. I'm questioning orangebottle so I can determine if he's scum or not, you told me NOT to use my vote for pressure like when I did with imiknorris, hypocrite. I'm actually accepting the answer that orangebottle made a mistake with the max scum number because mistakes happen, I make them too and it causes people like you to jump on me over complete horseshit that doesn't get crap done. You're yelling at me to vote someone who's still iffy. Don't stuff words in my mouth.
This whole game you've just been making yourself look good by attacking other people's arguments with other people, that's all you do. You're putting bullshit reasons to my actions without backing it up. You've been controlling this game through fear. You caused all this crap with orangebottle just because he was afraid of you. You just wait for a hole in an argument so you can call someone scum, making you look good for pointing things out. Do you actually suspect these people?
Explain yourself. I think i've finally found who I suspect most.
What are you going to do? Talk everyone into a crusade against me? It'll just show you control the town by fear.
So lets take this more slowly. Jim, why exactly are you voting me? As far as I can tell, it's because I won't vote someone who I can't figure out is scum or not. Also, the reason I didn't vote him is because of something you yelled at me beforehand. Lets get examples this time.I can appreciate using your vote to get answers out of people but pretty soon the day is going to turn into night, and you should only have your vote on the person you suspect. So who is it?The problem is, if I voted orangebottle, it would have been a pressure vote. I'm trying to find holes in his claim because I don't suspect him as much right now. I just see a town player who fucked up.
So why are you telling ME that I think he's scum?
I agree with the "lynch you harder" bit - any pro-town role you could claim would be Wine.I'll believe your claim, but it doesn't help us all that much (yet), and I was rather hoping that it would paint a clearer image of your attention on Shark.Why would you willingly believe something you've admitted is wine?
Okay, i've been pissed about for the last 2 real life days.. Time to blow up.Please do. Everyone else will tell you to calm down; I won't. People forget to keep to their neat little defenses and calm, carefully thought out statements when they're mad. It's a lot easier to see scum when they're too angry to remember their facade.
Jim, i've had it with your bullshit.This is a blatant, blatant OMGUS. You have absolutely no case on Jim, none. You're voting him purely because he's voting you.
All you ever do is yell at people whenever they try to question people. You don't really DO anything, all you do is redirect attention. This whole damn game.
I'm questioning orangebottle so I can determine if he's scum or not, you told me NOT to use my vote for pressure like when I did with imiknorris, hypocrite. I'm actually accepting the answer that orangebottle made a mistake with the max scum number because mistakes happen, I make them too and it causes people like you to jump on me over complete horseshit that doesn't get crap done. You're yelling at me to vote someone who's still iffy. Don't stuff words in my mouth.
This whole game you've just been making yourself look good by attacking other people's arguments with other people, that's all you do.If someone's argument is shit, you should attack it. This point actually helps prove Jim is TOWN more than scum.
You're putting bullshit reasons to my actions without backing it up. You've been controlling this game through fear. You caused all this crap with orangebottle just because he was afraid of you. You just wait for a hole in an argument so you can call someone scum, making you look good for pointing things out. Do you actually suspect these people?
Explain yourself. I think i've finally found who I suspect most.
What are you going to do? Talk everyone into a crusade against me? It'll just show you control the town by fear.
..you're right, aren't you. Posting without thinking has gotton you, arathos, and me in trouble.Has it ever. You're practically fucked.
So lets take this more slowly. Jim, why exactly are you voting me? As far as I can tell, it's because I won't vote someone who I can't figure out is scum or not.Dude, really? Do you have ZERO reading comprehension? Your vote directly contradicts your top suspicion. You stated someone was scum, then didn't vote for them. Jim addressed ALL that before voting you at the end of his post. Pretending you don't know is ridiculous.
Shorten.
I've pretty much gotten tired of this game. This whole long day has been jumping on bullshit that doesn't mean anything. I just want to stop posting and be done with this game. Yes, it's a suicide, but in this huge convoluted mess the scum is watching it giggling. If we have a vig, there's actually a chance for us to win if i'm not a target anymore. Get me out of the picture and vote shorten.
...
So, you didn't kill me because I would be easy to lynch?
How is that not incredibly scummy?
Also, I was roleblocked again.
Also, I was roleblocked again.
...
So, you didn't kill me because I would be easy to lynch?
How is that not incredibly scummy?
So, why did you kill Urist over Jim?
So, why did you kill Urist over Jim?
You.Also, I was roleblocked again.
Funny how you forget to mention who your target was.
It's almost like you're not a Cop at all.
It doesn't really matter how scummy you find it since with no Vigilante counterclaim (from me since I'd be the only person able to do it) he's a confirmed townie at this point.By that logic, I'm also confirmed town because I claimed cop and there wasn't a counter.
So, why did you kill Urist over Jim?
Angry your path through lylo isn't going to be as easy as you hoped?
Tell me why you want me dead over Urist Imiknorris and then maybe we can get to talking. And why'd you forget to mention NativeForeigner? I guess you already knew he was going to die so no need to ask McArathos about that.Because he said it was between you, me, and Imiknorris. That's why.
What really ticks me off is the twisting of my words: "You kept me around because I was an easy lynch, what a scummy admission".Twisting your words? No. You said it yourself.
You COMPLETELY omitted the part where I said IF YOU WERE LYING. You conveniently MISSED the part where I said "If he's telling the truth, LYLO with two confirmed townies is too easy".If you thought this was the case, why didn't you immediately start hunting Jim?
I deliberately kept you around because I felt you might be telling the truth, and if Jim was scum he'd be fucked. Two confirmed townies in a 3-man LYLO? We can't lost. Instead, you immediately start slinging shit as though I'm fake claiming. You're panicking, and I know from the last BM game I played with you not to assume you're incompetent. You're a crafty fucker, Orangebottle, but you're not escaping the noose here. You'd better have some seriously good arguments if you really ARE a cop, because right now you're reading panicked scum to me.Wow. You're really good at making shit up, aren't you?
QuoteIt doesn't really matter how scummy you find it since with no Vigilante counterclaim (from me since I'd be the only person able to do it) he's a confirmed townie at this point.By that logic, I'm also confirmed town because I claimed cop and there wasn't a counter.
Which means you're the only person who could be scum.
Why are you trying to lynch me with bullshit, Jim?
Angry? Where did I ever look angry in that post?
Wow. You're really good at making shit up, aren't you?
Nope.SK is a possible role. Why are you suddenly forgetting this?
Kills are verifiable, since, you know, there are roleflips happening and people getting killed and all that. Roleblocked cop claims are not.
There's a big difference between anger and stupidity, Jim.Angry? Where did I ever look angry in that post?
When you asked a question McArathos already answered.
I hadn't forgotten. If McArathos is the SK then there's no way the town can win and it doesn't really matter what I do. So I opt to play like the town still has a chance, and this means assuming McArathos is a Vigilante instead of SK.True, true.
Further, McArathos' targets are in line with his suspicions, which he's made clear over the course of the game and has surprised nobody with. If he is an SK then he is doing an excellent job masquerading as a Vigilante. Or more simply, and more likely, he's a Vigilante.
Are you trying to say that pretending to be a vigilante as an SK is hard? Because it isn't. God knows I've tried it in more than a few IRC Mafia games.
If McArathos is the SK then there's no way the town can win and it doesn't really matter what I do. So I opt to play like the town still has a chance, and this means assuming McArathos is a Vigilante instead of SK.
I'd also like to point out that you were just fine with my claim yesterday. Is it suddenly unbelievable because I forgot to include a target in my most recent claim?
Because if I'm the cop, and Arathos is confirmed to be a non-mafia killing role, Jim must be our roleblocker.
He's also trying to buddy up to Arathos by confirming him as town because Arathos killed two townies.
On the other hand, Orangebottle, you seemed fairly determined to get one of us to vote the other. You've painted my reasons for my kills as scummy, reminded Jim that I could be an SK and shouldn't be trusted, and then tell me that Jim is clearly buddying.Probably because I'm the scummiest player and there's no way it could possibly get any worse. But, at this point, I'm convinced that Jim is the last Mafia.
This statement is true, but relies entirely on that "if". Unfortunately for you, once you claimed Cop you sealed your fate. There was no way you WOULDN'T be blocked or killed (if you were a cop), and my money was on blocked (since it's much more WIFOM to keep you alive and blocked than dead and flip town). Worse, since you'd already been blocked, I can't see why you'd bother claiming. Your claim had nothing to help town (since you couldn't provide a confirmed townie, and would be eliminated as a power role immediately after claiming), and only helped save you from the noose. To me, that's the worst part: you claimed cop to stay alive, and in fact hurt town more than helped in doing do.Did you go into Night 2 thinking this? If so, you chose the wrong target.
This is precisely the scenario a skilled scum player like Jim would want at LYLO. Unfortunately (for you), I'm not going to lynch Jim on this fact alone. If you're not the cop, it's a draw (since I'm assuming we'll target each other and either both kill each other in the night, or just stay at stalemate). Since you have no way to prove you're a cop, I have to assume neither of you are confirmed townies and lynch the scummier of the two and hope I make the right call.I was afraid you'd say that. Because this post pretty much seals the game. It's quite evident from this post that there is literally no way for me to convince you that Jim is the last scum.
Arathos, OB: Keep this in mind, when there's a game going on with some new faces and Jim, if Jim doesn't die my N2 he's usually scum.
I'll detail my thought process, because I plan to win this game spectacularly and I will document everything I do for posterity. It will be called, "How to Play Scum Like You Own the Whole Motherfucking Subforum."This is going into my quotepile. And this scumchat should probably be suggested reading.
Players in this game tend to be extraordinarily unsympathetic to claims that they're being controlled by some sort of mastermind.This is also awesome.
Even if they are!
Mwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Mwaha. Good game, all.Arathos, OB: Keep this in mind, when there's a game going on with some new faces and Jim, if Jim doesn't die my N2 he's usually scum.
This is a variation of the WUBA Alive on Day 3 Rule, stating basically the same thing.
It's a meta argument. I hate meta arguments.
I hope you all enjoy the very detailed scum chat. Part of its purpose was to be educational since there were a lot of players I've never seen before and I think they and some of the recent Beginner's Mafia graduates could benefit from seeing how a player like me makes his decisions. It should also be a good read.
Mwaha. Good game, all.Arathos, OB: Keep this in mind, when there's a game going on with some new faces and Jim, if Jim doesn't die my N2 he's usually scum.
This is a variation of the WUBA Alive on Day 3 Rule, stating basically the same thing.
It's a meta argument. I hate meta arguments.
I hope you all enjoy the very detailed scum chat. Part of its purpose was to be educational since there were a lot of players I've never seen before and I think they and some of the recent Beginner's Mafia graduates could benefit from seeing how a player like me makes his decisions. It should also be a good read.
Really though, I'm wondering what I could have done better to beat you. I had this funny feeling about you around mid day 2, but it seemed...like poor play to vote you on a hunch. I extended because I couldn't shake the feeling I had my vote wrong, but had nothing solid (I missed the GMT and since I don't know that time zone well, I completely screwed up being able to check in after work). Yeah, I could have won if I'd gone with my gut...is that poor play, or no?