Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 02:31:00 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 02:34:22 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 02:36:00 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 02:36:53 pm
Quote
Military experts say North Korea is years away from developing a long-range missile and a nuclear warhead to attack mainland US.
Clearly stated in the article.
This is simply dumb sabre rattling to mark the Annual US/RoK drill, like they do every year but turned up to 11 thanks to Kim Jong Un.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
They've never actually said "we're going to nuke you for this". Nobody has ever said that.
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 02:39:09 pm
Quote
"Since the United States is about to ignite a nuclear war, we will be exercising our right to a preemptive nuclear attack against the headquarters of the aggressor in order to protect our supreme interest," said the statement carried by the official KCNA news agency.
Washington?
Post by: Sheb on March 07, 2013, 02:40:56 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 07, 2013, 02:42:50 pm
... or at least who is N.Korea saying the states are considering nuking, I guess.
'Cause I mean, damn, if we're about to ignite a nuclear war some forewarning would be nice. They ain't been sayin' much 'bout it.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 02:43:14 pm
Well, they can launch, but hitting the US is harder, even without the shield. Their launchers have a tendency to explode.That was the old launchers. The new ones work, as we've seen over the past months.
My news sense is just tingling about this one. I think something is going to come of it.
Post by: Felius on March 07, 2013, 02:46:34 pm
Post by: Xantalos on March 07, 2013, 02:49:04 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 07, 2013, 02:52:04 pm
They do have the ability to launch, the US just has a missile shield. If they do launch it'll be shot down, but there will be war for sure.The missile shield doesn't extend that far actually. It mostly covers again Russia and China, so the NK koreans might slip a warhead or two through.
Though there's also the naval part of the missile interception system can easily hit it.
Also, even the best missile system only intercepts 50-75% of the missiles.
Post by: Scelly9 on March 07, 2013, 02:55:03 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2013, 02:55:56 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 02:56:17 pm
Ebbor. They have 10. Total. This ain't the Soviet Union we're talking about here.They do have the ability to launch, the US just has a missile shield. If they do launch it'll be shot down, but there will be war for sure.The missile shield doesn't extend that far actually. It mostly covers again Russia and China, so the NK koreans might slip a warhead or two through.
Though there's also the naval part of the missile interception system can easily hit it.
Also, even the best missile system only intercepts 50-75% of the missiles.
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 02:59:14 pm
Seroiusly, there are like a million fallout shelter's scattered over ew york. Most people don't even notice them. But, I think the rations must be old. 50 yr old cracker probably is VERY hard. Holy crap do not take that last sentence out of context.
Launchins are bad. I think the US may utilize some defensive strategies though. They have had time to prepare.
Post by: Scelly9 on March 07, 2013, 03:00:14 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 03:02:23 pm
Maybe they will nuke LA instead? Hopefully? Do they have directional changing tech?
Post by: nenjin on March 07, 2013, 03:18:50 pm
Post by: hemmingjay on March 07, 2013, 03:29:06 pm
In particular, the threat NK made was in direct response to sanctions imposed by the US and CHINA(their own ALLY) for reckless behavior, threatening global stability, and general asshattery. Oddly enough, NK's government is near collapse and a limited conflict may actually temporarily save them. Threatening such action is likely to garner some form of financial appeasement or increase the odds of a limited combat engagement.
As for the intended target of a nuclear attack. Washington is completely out as is New York. The range of their systems is barely enough to cross the pacific and the longer it stays in the air the more opportunity to have it shot down or malfunction. They could surprise Hawaii but it would not serve them well as it would irradiate their own waters that they rely on for fishing. LA or Washington State are potential targets but also unlikely due to well placed assets that would intercept with the 45 minute warning. I believe if they WERE to launch an attack it would be a limited short range, low yield tactical strike on one of the two main US bases in South Korea. It would be a bold attack and would disorganize a counter-strike buying themselves enough time to negotiate terms for a cease fire before all hell rained down on them.
After 7 years in the military I would rate the likelihood of a nuclear attack from them somewhere around 2%. It's not impossible, but I won't worry unless I win the lottery and the Chicago Cubs win the World Series in the same year.
BTW Misco, I am also in NYC and we would indeed be "boned" as even if it didn't hit us, gridlock from panicked hipsters trying to leave the city would.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 03:31:40 pm
Post by: hemmingjay on March 07, 2013, 03:31:53 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2013, 03:32:22 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 07, 2013, 03:37:16 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 04:03:29 pm
Even so, I would prefer it not be a problem. Please remember all, evey good damned penny in that country goes to the military. So all the money they coud have been spending on sucking less, they spent on war. They might be able to cause alot of casualties on the way down.
As for it happening, Err? Don't know. All we can do is hope they're just, what's the commonest phrase here? Sabre Rattling. I'm scared though. What if they finally realize we don't believe them? The Kims are Narcissists. They do not take kindly to be ignored.
BTW Misco, I am also in NYC and we would indeed be "boned" as even if it didn't hit us, gridlock from panicked hipsters trying to leave the city would.You say this, and now I'm imagining you as some old guy going "THAT'S RIGHT YA YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPERS, RUN! COWARDS. IN MY DAY MEN STAYED AND DIED LIKE REAL MEN. PUSSIES.
Post by: Euld on March 07, 2013, 04:07:36 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 04:08:47 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 07, 2013, 04:10:19 pm
I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 07, 2013, 04:11:03 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 04:12:09 pm
You can't kill the messiah.I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Anyone who takes this even remotely serious is horribly ignorant of the lack of ability for NK to do much except for propaganda and starvation of it's own people. Seriously. Come on.They have working nukes, and that makes them a threat no matter how incompetent they are in other fields.
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 04:12:53 pm
Anyone who takes this even remotely serious is horribly ignorant of the lack of ability for NK to do much except for propaganda and starvation of it's own people. Seriously. Come on.What did I say? Imagine, if you will, if the US spent 90% of it's budget entirely on the military. Wouldn't it be a shithole? Yes. Would it's military be a thing of terrror? Yes. This is what they did.
But still. He's talking himself into a corner. Listen to this:
Quote
And while a nuclear attack itself is not an immediate palpable threat, "This surge in provocative rhetoric is particularly dangerous," added Michael Auslin, also with the institute. "South Korea's new president (Park Geun Hye) can't be seen to back down in the face of the North's threats, while (new North Korean leader) Kim Jong Un may feel that his successful missile and nuclear tests give him the ability to keep pressuring Seoul. The two may wind up talking themselves into war."
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 04:14:17 pm
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 04:16:10 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 07, 2013, 04:16:36 pm
NK has nether the capacity to nuke anybody, nor the economy to go to war. They would get trampled so hard it would make the middle east look nice.
You do not conduct nuclear war on fantasy budgets and claims of military power. You actually need the capability, which they do not. Quoted here for emphasis.
Post by: Euld on March 07, 2013, 04:18:21 pm
The Kingons killed--You can't kill the messiah.I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 07, 2013, 04:21:18 pm
That's what the purpose of the Washington monument was. The space needle was only used as an observation post. And even if you were to equip it with a laser, it's a SPACE needle. It would fire into SPACE.I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Also, even thou North Korea spends most of their GDP on their military, isn't South Korea's military budget greater then their entire GDP? I remember seeing that somewhere.
Post by: OREOSOME on March 07, 2013, 04:22:14 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 04:23:20 pm
Not saying they will win, saying they shouldn't be underestimated.That's what the purpose of the Washington monument was. The space needle was only used as an observation post. And even if you were to equip it with a laser, it's a SPACE needle. It would fire into SPACE.I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Also, even thou North Korea spends most of their GDP on their military, isn't South Korea's military budget greater then their entire GDP? I remember seeing that somewhere.
I notice the people betting North Korea can't do anything are not in the line of fire. So safe in the EU, move to South Korea if you are so sure.
Please people. You underestimate how long they had support from the Soviets and now the Chinese. Years of support plus aid plus ALL of your money in the military counts for SOMETHING. Do you think there just isn't any money in Nkorea, and they just like built this out of scrap?
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 07, 2013, 04:25:15 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/MAzbqAB.png)
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 04:26:09 pm
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2013, 04:28:53 pm
Really, I'd imagine the threat they pose has been assessed, and will probably be countered in one form or another, before their military capability suddenly goes poof.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 07, 2013, 04:30:10 pm
I do understand that they can do a good bit of damage, but doing so would be suicide.Not saying they will win, saying they shouldn't be underestimated.That's what the purpose of the Washington monument was. The space needle was only used as an observation post. And even if you were to equip it with a laser, it's a SPACE needle. It would fire into SPACE.I second the motion of arming the Space Needle with a phaser beam array to shoot down any missiles that attempt to approach Washington state.... and now all my mind can see is the outer facade of the Space Needle falling away to reveal an oversized NOD Obelisk of Light.
Also, even thou North Korea spends most of their GDP on their military, isn't South Korea's military budget greater then their entire GDP? I remember seeing that somewhere.
I notice the people betting North Korea can't do anything are not in the line of fire. So safe in the EU, move to South Korea if you are so sure.
Please people. You underestimate how long they had support from the Soviets and now the Chinese. Years of support plus aid plus ALL of your money in the military counts for SOMETHING. Do you think there just isn't any money in Nkorea, and they just like built this out of scrap?
I thought their equipment was scrap...
But if Ghandi is the one to advocate nuclear violence, then would Best Korea be the one to advocate reason?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 04:30:50 pm
It kinda makes the advantage not so clear cut.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 07, 2013, 04:32:24 pm
Please note: The newest round of sanctions directed at targeting the science departments [which is used to shuffle money from other departments so they can even buy their test rocket fuel] and money being walked into the country from China are being proposed by.. China.
They're tired of the sabre rattling too. This is just Un trying to curry favor with the loyalists in the country and pissing off his benefactors at the same time.
Post by: Tellemurius on March 07, 2013, 04:33:16 pm
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 04:34:43 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 04:36:12 pm
I'm surprised they aren't threatening to nuke us over here in Australia though. We still have the ANZUS treaty in place, so it is pretty much a 'fuck with one, fuck with both' situation. Why attack the guy who can shoot down all your missiles, when the other guy has a ballistics program that equates to a kid with a rubber band?
Ohh I am sure they have. Who hasn't North Korea threatened to blow up? I am surprised they have yet to threaten to blow up their own country.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 07, 2013, 04:38:45 pm
Don't forget that North Korea is so difficult to attack even the USA would have trouble.
This +2. Also, we can't attack them. China will not allow further foreign incursion on what is essentially a peninsula of mainland China. If NK did something to warrant an invasion, NK would quickly be known as East Beijing. The Chinese have a defensive mantra, and that will remain in place until they are threatened. NK going nuclear would almost certainly cause China to assert itself. This is not the old China that supported all Communist countries equally. This is the burgeoning superpower that has no interest in anyone destabilizing the region.
Misko- Nope, not some old guy(35) but I have witnessed too many panicked NY transplants at every emergency this city has seen for the last 13 years. The crumbling infrastructure simply can't handle anything but orderly, scheduled evacuations.
Post by: Tellemurius on March 07, 2013, 04:51:06 pm
I'm surprised they aren't threatening to nuke us over here in Australia though. We still have the ANZUS treaty in place, so it is pretty much a 'fuck with one, fuck with both' situation. Why attack the guy who can shoot down all your missiles, when the other guy has a ballistics program that equates to a kid with a rubber band?because you would unleash of the nasty crawlies in your country to them.
surprise they haven't thought of that.I'm surprised they aren't threatening to nuke us over here in Australia though. We still have the ANZUS treaty in place, so it is pretty much a 'fuck with one, fuck with both' situation. Why attack the guy who can shoot down all your missiles, when the other guy has a ballistics program that equates to a kid with a rubber band?
Ohh I am sure they have. Who hasn't North Korea threatened to blow up? I am surprised they have yet to threaten to blow up their own country.
"SCREW YOU AMERICANS, YOU WANT BEST KOREA, WE DESTROY IT SO NO ONE CAN HAZ IT. MUHAHAHAHA"
Post by: chaoticag on March 07, 2013, 04:51:49 pm
Except for... you know Chaoticag, South Korea would have one heck of a time even trying to take possible one of the most easily defensible countries in existence.The point isn't to annex NK once a war starts, just remove their navy and their air force. Once they can't do anything offensive, they can't mount an offensive. Not to mention that the US is South Korea's allies, and all it'd take are a couple drones to ruin what war capabilities they have in North Korea.
It kinda makes the advantage not so clear cut.
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 05:06:48 pm
Except for... you know Chaoticag, South Korea would have one heck of a time even trying to take possible one of the most easily defensible countries in existence.The point isn't to annex NK once a war starts, just remove their navy and their air force. Once they can't do anything offensive, they can't mount an offensive. Not to mention that the US is South Korea's allies, and all it'd take are a couple drones to ruin what war capabilities they have in North Korea.
It kinda makes the advantage not so clear cut.
Nooooo, the point once the war starts is to somehow try to stop all the fixed artillery that North Korea has from wiping out a good chunk of South Korea. Just because a lot of their tubes are world war two era doesn't mean they can't throw a very big, very explosive shell into the middle of Seoul. Which would involve striking through the DMZ, also known as the most heavily fortified border in the world.
Which would be very bloody. To say the least.
In any case, I really do wonder if the Korean War finishing is inevitable. I mean, if all this posturing doesn't lead to it, what happens when the North Korean regime gets down to it's death throes? Moreover, am I gonna be sitting Camp Casey when it goes down, or will I be heading there as quickly as possible?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 07, 2013, 05:11:27 pm
Civilian deaths will be numerous though.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 05:11:59 pm
Except China wouldn't allow a puppet state of hers to impede with the relations with the largest importer of their goods. Sorry. Geopolitics > One fat kid's daydream to have nuclear missiles.North Korea isn't China's puppet. China's just the only one who will talk to them anymore. NK defies China all the time.
Nooooo, the point once the war starts is to somehow try to stop all the fixed artillery that North Korea has from wiping out a good chunk of South Korea. Just because a lot of their tubes are world war two era doesn't mean they can't throw a very big, very explosive shell into the middle of Seoul. Which would involve striking through the DMZ, also known as the most heavily fortified border in the world.Not so much. (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/north-korea-and-flattening-seoul) The threat of NK's artillery is extremely overblown.
Quote
In any case, I really do wonder if the Korean War finishing is inevitable. I mean, if all this posturing doesn't lead to it, what happens when the North Korean regime gets down to it's death throes? Moreover, am I gonna be sitting Camp Casey when it goes down, or will I be heading there as quickly as possible?There are only two outcomes to North Korea. Either they go too far and we finish them off or they collapse from within and SK occupies the world's newest failed state.
Post by: Bohandas on March 07, 2013, 05:12:32 pm
They do have the ability to launch, the US just has a missile shield. If they do launch it'll be shot down, but there will be war for sure.
In that case I hope they do try it. It'll be the excuse we need to destroy them; not invade like we did with Iraq and Afghanistan, destroy.
There won't be a war per se, just sudden and cataclysmic retribution.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 07, 2013, 05:16:31 pm
North Korea isn't China's puppet. China's just the only one who will talk to them anymore. NK defies China all the time.
The only reason NK even exists is because NK is allowed to use Chinese banking and loophole-regulations to be able to finance their shitty failed state, so yes, they are their puppet state. China controls every political string in NK.
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 05:17:16 pm
destroyOk while I don't like NKs government, I am morally opposed to the decimation of a populous just because one asshole with the biggest hat doesn't like other nations.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 07, 2013, 05:24:29 pm
Because America is going to attack for sure, and China/Russia might not want to tolerate this infraction in their sphere of influence. Before you'd know it, it's the Cold war all over again.
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 05:25:02 pm
Except China wouldn't allow a puppet state of hers to impede with the relations with the largest importer of their goods. Sorry. Geopolitics > One fat kid's daydream to have nuclear missiles.North Korea isn't China's puppet. China's just the only one who will talk to them anymore. NK defies China all the time.Nooooo, the point once the war starts is to somehow try to stop all the fixed artillery that North Korea has from wiping out a good chunk of South Korea. Just because a lot of their tubes are world war two era doesn't mean they can't throw a very big, very explosive shell into the middle of Seoul. Which would involve striking through the DMZ, also known as the most heavily fortified border in the world.Not so much. (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/north-korea-and-flattening-seoul) The threat of NK's artillery is extremely overblown.QuoteIn any case, I really do wonder if the Korean War finishing is inevitable. I mean, if all this posturing doesn't lead to it, what happens when the North Korean regime gets down to it's death throes? Moreover, am I gonna be sitting Camp Casey when it goes down, or will I be heading there as quickly as possible?There are only two outcomes to North Korea. Either they go too far and we finish them off or they collapse from within and SK occupies the world's newest failed state.
Overblown, sure. I'll concede that trying to claim that "Seoul would be flattened in half an hour" like that article postulates is an exaggeration. Moreover, do you know that that's half of a two side opinion piece? Here's the other half.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/north-korea-conflict-weapons-available (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/north-korea-conflict-weapons-available)
Quote
Technology can help prevent the North Koreans from getting in a second shot. But there is not yet any solution to the thousands of shells and rockets they could launch with the first salvo on Seoul, and that remains one of the biggest concerns in an escalating conflict.
Read more: North Korea Artillery - Korea Conflict Weapons - Popular Mechanics
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 05:37:20 pm
did I say? Imagine, if you will, if the US spent 90% of it's budget entirely on the military. Wouldn't it be a shithole? Yes. Would it's military be a thing of terrror? Yes.You miss out something:
Their military is utter SHITE!
Outdated, starved, inexperienced...
You're comparing a country that has a GDP less than south Korea's military budget. The guys would get roflstomped by America if they attacked.
No, you'd see a pretty terrifying war in costs of civilian and military casualties on both sides. If North Korea gets mobilized, they can get a helluva lot of guys, and a ten dollar crap rifle will end my life just as easily as a AR15.
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 05:42:26 pm
No, you'd see a pretty terrifying war in costs of civilian and military casualties on both sides. If North Korea gets mobilized, they can get a helluva lot of guys, and a ten dollar crap rifle will end my life just as easily as a AR15.You are making the assumption that the population will mobilize.
Give a starving village a crate of ammo and shit will hit the fan sooner or later. Give the same village a crate of food and means to provide for themselves and they will think twice before taking up arms.
If there is one thing NK isn't short on, it is starving villages.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 05:45:40 pm
No, you'd see a pretty terrifying war in costs of civilian and military casualties on both sides. If North Korea gets mobilized, they can get a helluva lot of guys, and a ten dollar crap rifle will end my life just as easily as a AR15.Supply lines, Strife. North Korea can barely keep people fed while not at war. A terrible rifle might be able to end your life, but not if it doesn't have any bullets or if the operator is half-dead from starvation.
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 05:54:41 pm
Yeah, we'll win. I'll kick ass and take names. Be a *lot* of dead Americans and South Koreans when the dust settles, though.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 07, 2013, 05:58:40 pm
I doubt NK can even afford the fuel to run Artillery/Aircraft for any real period. The country is a joke, especially the military. Their pay is food.
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 06:04:03 pm
People become disillusioned very quickly when their god-leader tells them to march, while the enemy offers food, medical aid and education.
Yea, there would be some fighting, but battles alone don't make for a war.
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 06:05:26 pm
Trying to break through the DMZ would be enough of a battle to make a war just by itself, even if the the people flock to us afterwards. That's a pretty big assumption that there fanatical-ness has seriously deteriorated with time.
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 06:08:14 pm
If you have done something the wrong way in the past and it hasn't worked out, that doesn't mean it will never work.
Post by: Ricky on March 07, 2013, 06:09:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zrk2 on March 07, 2013, 06:18:45 pm
Post by: Bohandas on March 07, 2013, 06:24:25 pm
destroyOk while I don't like NKs government, I am morally opposed to the decimation of a populous just because one asshole with the biggest hat doesn't like other nations.
Not necessarily the entire country, maybe just the part that Kim Jong Un is in at the time; but that part will be reduced to a crater.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 07, 2013, 06:26:22 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on March 07, 2013, 07:44:17 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 08:02:04 pm
Looks like the US has enough defense. As for japan and SKorea...
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 08:17:20 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 08:32:24 pm
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 08:35:37 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 07, 2013, 08:40:24 pm
Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!
Is it wrong for me to be excited?
Post by: Xantalos on March 07, 2013, 08:41:47 pm
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 07, 2013, 08:45:07 pm
Update: It's official, North Korea has ended the nonaggression pact and cut the North-South Hotline. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-cuts-hotline-981/)Have they done this before? I haven't lived long enough to grow accustomed to Best Korea's antics.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 07, 2013, 08:49:07 pm
Post by: kaenneth on March 07, 2013, 08:51:39 pm
Post by: Vactor on March 07, 2013, 08:52:30 pm
If they were going to attack they have such a disadvantage to overcome that they would be forced to attempt a surprise attack. By making such pronouncements they are pretty much guaranteeing that they are not about to do anything. This is primarily for domestic consumption to demonstrate how super serious their government is, and how real and present the danger of war is to the people of North Korea. Bonus points if they can claim that the evil enemy backed down from their economic assault.
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 07, 2013, 08:53:02 pm
Post by: Pnx on March 07, 2013, 08:59:44 pm
Of course this is a pretty dangerous move, I mean even if the NK government doesn't want to start a war, there's no guarantee some dumb-ass artillery guy won't panick and start shelling something and then the whole powder-keg goes up.
Post by: Xantalos on March 07, 2013, 09:01:02 pm
Post by: Strife26 on March 07, 2013, 09:30:39 pm
Here we go...
Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!
Is it wrong for me to be excited?
Yes, but I can't blame you too much.
Post by: Onlyhestands on March 07, 2013, 09:33:54 pm
Here you go 112.170.78.145:50000/chosun
Post by: Vector on March 07, 2013, 09:35:39 pm
Posting to watch.
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 09:50:58 pm
Post by: bulborbish on March 07, 2013, 10:18:03 pm
It should also be noted that in terms of weapons and men, north korea actually doubles the South. 1.2 million versus 600,000. And they do love training. A invasion would be hell, regardless of the agressor.
It's easy to say that, and then get memories of the powerful Iraqi Army that happened to be the powerful army in the region, only to get curbstomped by American forces.
Even assuming that the army is somewhat professionally trained, the best they could afford to do is wave tactics with the current state of the border. Anything beyond that is pushing the limits of reality too far for my liking. The only real threat of the NK army is their nukes, and any statement to the contrary is widely inaccurate.
Post by: Pnx on March 07, 2013, 10:21:49 pm
I honestly don't think anybody knows how the war would really turn out before hand, assuming it does really turn into a full fledged war.
Post by: Felius on March 07, 2013, 10:23:42 pm
And the saber rattling go even further.
Or alternatively they went full stupid, bought their own propaganda, and want to cease to exist.
Last option is that their leader is actually a genius who wants to turn N.Korea into a democracy and plans to do this by declaring a war against S.Korea and the US, and then losing it. :P
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 07, 2013, 10:28:31 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21709917#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-saThen we must hurry! The U.S shall answer the cry for democracy once again!
And the saber rattling go even further.
Or alternatively they went full stupid, bought their own propaganda, and want to cease to exist.
Last option is that their leader is actually a genius who wants to turn N.Korea into a democracy and plans to do this by declaring a war against S.Korea and the US, and then losing it. :P
Post by: mainiac on March 07, 2013, 10:31:36 pm
Yeah, we'll win. I'll kick ass and take names. Be a *lot* of dead Americans and South Koreans when the dust settles, though.
I just dont see that. We aren't talking west Germany with NATO being ready to fight a slugging match at a moments notice. While we probably could go invading on day 1 that just isn't in the cards. Day 1 would just be bombing the shit out of their long range artillery and rockets, as would day 2 and day 3. Maybe we'd invade them after a while but why bother? Their army would surrender in a month from hunger if we cut off aid. I don't know how well the NK leadership understands this but US generals aren't stupid enough to ignore that. And even if they were that stupid, it takes time to get the american people mobilized for a stupid war and the NK regime will probably collapse before we're ready.
The disturbing possibility is that once the long range artillery bites the dust the north Koreans would try a full scale invasion of the south. The resulting slaughter would be an immense human tragedy but I'm not imagining a lot of the dead being South Korean or American.
Well yeah, but the Iraqi army was very poorly managed, was a fraction of the size, and had some huge logistical and morale issues... While that might wind up being the case with North Korea, there's no guarantee of it.
The Iraqi army was vastly ahead of the North Korean army in technology and while they had morale issues those were nothing compared to the North Koreans. If Iraq had faced off against North Korea the Koreans would have gotten curbstomped. That's the disparity we're talking here, we're two degrees of curbstomping on the North Koreans.
Post by: ibot66 on March 07, 2013, 10:37:10 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21709917#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-saThis is an entirely reasonable plan for best Korea.
And the saber rattling go even further.
Or alternatively they went full stupid, bought their own propaganda, and want to cease to exist.
Last option is that their leader is actually a genius who wants to turn N.Korea into a democracy and plans to do this by declaring a war against S.Korea and the US, and then losing it. :P
Also, PTW. This might go south very very quickly.
Post by: freeformschooler on March 07, 2013, 10:37:58 pm
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 07, 2013, 10:38:48 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 07, 2013, 10:40:47 pm
Post by: Osmosis Jones on March 07, 2013, 10:43:09 pm
Update: It's official, North Korea has ended the nonaggression pact and cut the North-South Hotline. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-cuts-hotline-981/)
The N/S hotline isn't a big deal; (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hmEUR-mSLEUHfAswkZ36agHTkKiw?docId=CNG.29350d12cef5ba479bd32457cce4d1a0.8a1)
Quote
The hotline was installed in 1971 and the North has severed it on five occasions in the past -- most recently in 2010.
But voiding an armistice that has stood for 60 years... :/
Man, the year I'll be spending in Japan, starting in May, is looking like it will be interesting.
Post by: Pnx on March 07, 2013, 10:44:36 pm
The Iraqi army was vastly ahead of the North Korean army in technology and while they had morale issues those were nothing compared to the North Koreans. If Iraq had faced off against North Korea the Koreans would have gotten curbstomped. That's the disparity we're talking here, we're two degrees of curbstomping on the North Koreans.They had hand me down tanks, scud missiles, and RPG's which they got from the Russians, non of which worked very well at all. NK has all of these things and more, and might even be ahead of Iraq in military technology given that they've had some limited ability to purchase modern day aircraft and such.
Post by: Max White on March 07, 2013, 10:44:41 pm
Quote
Food Aid. North Korea has suffered from chronic, massive food shortages since the mid-1990s.Sorce (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40095.pdf)
Food aid—largely from China, South Korea, and the United States—has been essential in filling
the gap. In 2011, in response to continued food shortages, Pyongyang reportedly asked the United
States, South Korea, and other countries to provide large-scale food aid. The United Nations has
issued an appeal for assistance. In 2008 and 2009, the United States shipped about a third of a
planned 500,000 MT food aid pledge before disagreements with the North Korean government
led to the program’s cessation.
They are threatening to bit the hand that literally feeds them. Cutting supply lines is easy when you are the supply lines.
Neither SK or china are going to fly with that shit.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 07, 2013, 10:46:45 pm
Well yeah, but the Iraqi army was very poorly managed, was a fraction of the size, and had some huge logistical and morale issues... While that might wind up being the case with North Korea, there's no guarantee of it.
I honestly don't think anybody knows how the war would really turn out before hand, assuming it does really turn into a full fledged war.
NK has everything you mentioned in spades, and I think everyone knows the end result. NK will lose, the only question is how much will it hurt SK first.
Post by: Felius on March 07, 2013, 11:04:36 pm
Man, the year I'll be spending in Japan, starting in May, is looking like it will be interesting.Yeah, interesting, just like the Chinese curse.
Post by: Pnx on March 07, 2013, 11:18:55 pm
I never said NK would win, the only way they could win is if China decided that the cost of not joining with NK wasn't worth it they might jump in like they did the first time, this would seriously piss of their biggest trade partner, but like I said, they might decide it's better than the alternatives. I'm not sure it's likely, but I wouldn't put it past them, they are supposed to be official allies after all.Well yeah, but the Iraqi army was very poorly managed, was a fraction of the size, and had some huge logistical and morale issues... While that might wind up being the case with North Korea, there's no guarantee of it.
I honestly don't think anybody knows how the war would really turn out before hand, assuming it does really turn into a full fledged war.
NK has everything you mentioned in spades, and I think everyone knows the end result. NK will lose, the only question is how much will it hurt SK first.
I'm confident that the US could beat NK, but I'm not so confident it's going to be that easy.
Post by: alway on March 08, 2013, 02:09:06 am
Post by: Fniff on March 08, 2013, 02:38:12 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 08, 2013, 02:45:11 am
For one, it won't nuke SK unless NK is on its death bed, in which case they'll lob a bomb at SK just out of spite. Reason: Seasonal winds ensure NK will be irradiated come summer, as there's a seasonal southeasterly wind that blows from the Sea of Japan/East Sea to the penninsula.
Two, China strongly recommnded they don't do it, and China has 70% of NK's imports in its hand, and also provides most of NK's oil.
Three, unless NK is really dying every day at a palpable, irreversible pace, aggressive actions will only cause everyone to punch NK up giddily. Especially if China doesn't help, or only reluctantly helps.
On the other hand, NK has a largish upper hand here, in where Seoul (1/5 of SK's total population) is within artillery range of NK, as one internet goer found out through investigating Google Maps. Seoul's practically blanketed with artillery fire ranges. Because SK tends to think about minimializing citizen casualties, that's a huge thing to consider. Also why the US and SK haven't covertly bulked up troops and waged a three-day war—Seoul is basically hostage here. Roughly 10,000,000 people.
The weird thing is that this is a really conditional upper hand. Once NK uses it, NK won't have a chance against the many layered alliances and SK's immediate response. Outdated soldiers can only go so far. Though SKorea will most likely be half dead by then.
So, NK has a card that is influential but a losing card, a newly found card that's all-powerful but hard to use, and ... pretty much it. I think. O_o
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 02:48:06 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 08, 2013, 02:51:46 am
Also hostage of Korea.
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 02:53:51 am
How is it over there right now? General populations attitude to the situation? Are people trying to get out or do they feel pretty much safe?
Post by: Skyrunner on March 08, 2013, 02:58:42 am
The top ten search keywords on the portal site 97% of Koreans visit daily, NK isn't in it.
Post by: Wayward Device on March 08, 2013, 09:07:26 am
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 09:09:01 am
Post by: mainiac on March 08, 2013, 09:11:24 am
As others have already said, the fall of NK is historically inevitable. The real question is what will the reunited Korea call itself? Can't go for United Korea, UK is already taken. I vote Mega Korea!
Or call it Korea?
Post by: Darvi on March 08, 2013, 09:11:40 am
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 09:13:45 am
Post by: Darvi on March 08, 2013, 09:17:33 am
Post by: Tellemurius on March 08, 2013, 09:41:52 am
Seoul, Soul of Korea. :3well i hope for you guys good luck (i really do) and know that we americans will rush in really pissed off if NK decides to open the box o fun. From my family's stint in the military, the korean post of service was very serious due to the then and current nature of the situation. The artillery will be much of a problem, and maybe would take us maybe a hour to scramble bombers to disable them
Also hostage of Korea.
Post by: misko27 on March 08, 2013, 10:07:59 am
Seoul, Soul of Korea. :3Now would be a great time to invest in a bunker and a emergency kit.
Also hostage of Korea.
It seems increasingly like NKorea is boxed in to it's comment's. However, if the US and South Korea can avoid provokiing him further for a while,(hard given the upcoming military excersises, but not impossible) he'll be able to calm-down/back-out.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 02:15:59 pm
South Korea promises immediate retaliation if attacked. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-03/08/c_132218461.htm)
China urges for calm, nobody is listening. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21713340)
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 08, 2013, 02:44:02 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 02:49:27 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on March 08, 2013, 02:59:32 pm
Post by: Mlamlah on March 08, 2013, 03:17:47 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 08, 2013, 03:19:20 pm
North Korea is hyped so much as the evil villain that could prove a danger to the rest of the world, but their military technology is laughable. They spend most of their budget on guns and they *still* don't have much better than wwII era weaponry. If war happens they will be curb-stomped into submission pretty quickly.Yup, we knoz. NK isn't the problem. The first strike and the aftermath are. Remember, they got nuclear weaponry, and a whole lot of ww2 artillery aimed at Seoul.
Post by: Neonivek on March 08, 2013, 03:21:30 pm
It has nothing to do with whether or not North Korea can take over the world.
It is that North Korea is powerful enough to actually hurt people before we could stop them.
It is why we would be concerned with a psychopath with a rifle even if we have surrounded him with cops. He can still shoot someone dead.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 03:24:27 pm
Post by: Sir Finkus on March 08, 2013, 03:26:37 pm
Sure, we'd win eventually, but it would be messy as fuck. Don't expect the civilians to be on our side either.
It won't be so bad if you live overseas, but people in South Korea, and to a lesser extent, Japan could be in trouble.
Post by: Darvi on March 08, 2013, 03:28:01 pm
I'm pretty sure exactly nobody believes that North Korea can take over the world.North Korea does.
Post by: mcclay on March 08, 2013, 03:30:37 pm
The guys that made homefront did.Homefront was originally about China.
Post by: Sir Finkus on March 08, 2013, 03:31:41 pm
As far as I've seen, they have no interest in world domination. Most of their propaganda revolves around unification with the South and independence from the influence of other countries. Juche is a very Korean centric philosophy.I'm pretty sure exactly nobody believes that North Korea can take over the world.North Korea does.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 08, 2013, 03:34:39 pm
Post by: Strife26 on March 08, 2013, 03:40:33 pm
WW2 Weaponry is still pretty darn scary. I don't think we have anything that can destroy bunkers built into the middle of mountains or thousands of artillery shells flying towards Seoul.
Sure, we'd win eventually, but it would be messy as fuck. Don't expect the civilians to be on our side either.
It won't be so bad if you live overseas, but people in South Korea, and to a lesser extent, Japan could be in trouble.
And the not inconsiderable number of US troops over there as well
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 03:43:08 pm
Post by: Strife26 on March 08, 2013, 03:54:31 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 08, 2013, 03:55:37 pm
Evidently they changed their ideas, then.The guys that made homefront did.Homefront was originally about China.
Also, why is it in FPSes, America always gets invaded by a cold-war enemy? Mainly, Russia or China?
Because being invaded by Belgium seems significantly less likely.
Basically games are based on movies which were based on earlier movies about the cold war.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 08, 2013, 03:57:47 pm
But voiding an armistice that has stood for 60 years... :/They never really did stop going to war. North Korea can't do shit to the USA. North Korean militarization was a response to American militarization that was a response to nuclear weapons testing that was a response to increased militarization that was a response to...
And if they do this, they lose China's support, and the US marches in.China has condemned the nuclear testing yet still does nothing to debilitate their southern buffer.
They KNOW China said they'd pull their support if NK attacked anyone*They know China would enact sanctions against whatever they felt would be a threat against [ ].
-and they also have one of the crappiest militaries in the world.North Korea is quite possibly the last country in the world that would be willing to go to total war against the world's largest military, even if it meant dragging their entire country down into certain destruction.
It's starvedThe army is well fed from the food its citizens sacrifice.
-inexperiencedThey've never stopped being at war nor have they not stopped operations into South Korea.
They may try guerrilla tactics again, but they'd probably still get decimated.Hilly terrain, plenty of places North Koreans can hide in, they clearly don't care about the constraints of morality in war - it would be bloody conventional war that would cost both sides dearly.
Post by: Sheb on March 08, 2013, 04:04:42 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 04:17:34 pm
Post by: RedKing on March 08, 2013, 04:19:10 pm
Who would you suggest as a credible alternative? Aliens? The breakaway Republic of Islamic Kreplachistan? LUXEMBOURG??Evidently they changed their ideas, then.The guys that made homefront did.Homefront was originally about China.
Also, why is it in FPSes, America always gets invaded by a cold-war enemy? Mainly, Russia or China?
This is the problem with bring a superpower...your list of credible enemies for entertainment purposes is woefully small.
Although that has me wondering....for video games set in other countries, who do they have as your potential enemies?
@Strife: You know as well as I do that the US forces in South Korea aren't there to hold off the North Koreans. They might delay them at best. Their job is to be a tripwire -- to ensure that any attacks on South Korea are going to hit some US troops and give us the casus belli to retaliate with overwhelming force. More or less the same thing that US forces in Germany were there for. There was no illusion about holding off the Soviets if they went full-scale. Their job was to give us the excuse to retaliate in full.
Post by: DJ on March 08, 2013, 04:27:10 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 04:29:18 pm
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 04:32:21 pm
And then Santa will spread hope and joy around the world with Kim Jong Un and Obama on his sleigh singing merely.
Post by: DJ on March 08, 2013, 04:32:59 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2013, 04:35:09 pm
Post by: DJ on March 08, 2013, 04:37:22 pm
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 04:39:19 pm
North Korea is preparing its forces for war. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9917155/North-Korea-says-prepare-for-war-following-fresh-UN-sanctions.html)Holy shit, I have literally that exact same coat... Same color and style.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 08, 2013, 04:52:23 pm
General Max White Il, we have been expecting you.North Korea is preparing its forces for war. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9917155/North-Korea-says-prepare-for-war-following-fresh-UN-sanctions.html)Holy shit, I have literally that exact same coat... Same color and style.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 08, 2013, 05:03:34 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 08, 2013, 05:10:53 pm
You know that video where it's got Kim Jong Un on the transport with the soldiers all chasing after him?I was sort of worried the soldiers would keep following the transport until they drowned.
Well, the country is starving, and he's... not thin...
Post by: MaximumZero on March 08, 2013, 05:12:19 pm
You know that video where it's got Kim Jong Un on the transport with the soldiers all chasing after him?To be fair, he didn't exactly grow up as a peasant in NK. He went to schools all across Europe, and has a wealthy family, to boot. He was chunky well before he took command.
Well, the country is starving, and he's... not thin...
Post by: Strife26 on March 08, 2013, 05:14:10 pm
It's a damn weird world we live in, where I could end up doing essentially the same thing my father dead, in a tank design older than I, to continue a war that my grandfather was almost es drafted for.
Post by: Max White on March 08, 2013, 05:19:59 pm
To be fair, he didn't exactly grow up as a peasant in NK. He went to schools all across Europe, and has a wealthy family, to boot. He was chunky well before he took command.True, although he didn't get that really rounded look until he got surgery to look more like his father.
Post by: Pnx on March 08, 2013, 05:29:35 pm
It's really getting to be a worrying situation, but still... it's not over 'til the fat leader sings.
Post by: olemars on March 08, 2013, 05:49:52 pm
This all seems like a show of blatant posturing. IIRC, North Korea's doctrine is surprise attack through tunnels, infiltration and massive first strike, and all this big talk kinda defeats that. Unless Dear Manchild "invented" the double bluff during the last staff meeting and all the generals just applauded out of fear and mental fatigue.
Post by: Gunner-Chan on March 08, 2013, 05:54:10 pm
They may have been after him. For a different reason to what he thought...
This just in. North Korean army is staffed entirely by chubby chasers.
Post by: nenjin on March 08, 2013, 05:56:03 pm
Post by: Sensei on March 08, 2013, 06:10:15 pm
Post by: Xantalos on March 08, 2013, 06:11:28 pm
Man, you'd think people here would be able to get a simple cannibalism joke. :PSig'd.
Post by: Frumple on March 08, 2013, 06:16:10 pm
Post by: Funk on March 08, 2013, 06:24:54 pm
no onw would see that one comeing.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 08, 2013, 06:48:27 pm
what wound happen is NK invaded china?
no onw would see that one comeing.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on March 08, 2013, 06:58:40 pm
These are interesting times.
Post by: mainiac on March 08, 2013, 07:17:48 pm
@Strife: You know as well as I do that the US forces in South Korea aren't there to hold off the North Koreans. They might delay them at best. Their job is to be a tripwire
Not really. Yeah, the 30k americans in Korea aren't going to hold off the million man Korean army on their own. But they'd have more then half a million South Koreans standing beside them (or in front of them). The South Korean army is equipped with basically the same technology as the american military; the K1 tank is an M1 variant adopted to hilly terrain, they use a domestic version of the F16, etc. It's not like the Korean war where the north could overwhelm the south with numbers until the Americans showed up to save the day. Northern tanks wouldn't even be able to make it within firing distance of southern troops, they'd get lit up first.
Post by: misko27 on March 08, 2013, 09:19:06 pm
Fro peopel saying their bluffing... They are taken so unseriously that this could be a legit bluff tactic.
Post by: Hubris Incalculable on March 08, 2013, 10:14:13 pm
Seoul, Soul of Korea. :3Sky, please GTFO of Seoul. Find a nice place in the south, if you can't get out of Korea entirely. We like you too much for you to be cut off by a war, or worse, blown to smithereens by North Korean artillery.
Also hostage of Korea.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 09, 2013, 12:44:53 am
Post by: Max White on March 09, 2013, 12:46:29 am
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 09, 2013, 12:49:18 am
At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
One of the things that would be interesting to watch would be how special forces are deployed in a second Korean war.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 09, 2013, 12:53:22 am
Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 09, 2013, 01:04:07 am
I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Felius on March 09, 2013, 01:09:15 am
The issue is that a distant foreign power trying to unilaterally do so creates a ridiculous amounts of issues. If something like this was done, S.Korea needs to lead it, or alternatively, the UN. Even China might be a better option, since they can soak the negative PR much better than the US, and still have the excuse of a "concerned local power".Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
That said, if N.Korea shoots first, well, no one reasonable is going to blame the US when they go in, depose their regime and impose a democracy. Except China, but that's just because they don't want an American puppet on their borders, not out of any love to N.Korea. In fact, they might decide to invade N.Korea and depose their regime before the US does it, just to keep the new regimes at their terms, or at least have some grounds to find a better (to them) compromise.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 09, 2013, 01:11:45 am
No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Sirus on March 09, 2013, 01:14:45 am
Don't be ridiculous. We're clearly going to invade in order to protect the remaining wild unicorns!No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 09, 2013, 01:16:12 am
There are no wild unicorns. What do you think Best Korea's spec-ops teams ride into battle on?Don't be ridiculous. We're clearly going to invade in order to protect the remaining wild unicorns!No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Sirus on March 09, 2013, 01:17:16 am
Well, obviously they'd have to be rehabilitated into the wild. Assuming any survive, of course :(There are no wild unicorns. What do you think Best Korea's spec-ops teams ride into battle on?Don't be ridiculous. We're clearly going to invade in order to protect the remaining wild unicorns!No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on March 09, 2013, 01:17:23 am
That's dazzle camouflage right there.There are no wild unicorns. What do you think Best Korea's spec-ops teams ride into battle on?Don't be ridiculous. We're clearly going to invade in order to protect the remaining wild unicorns!No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 09, 2013, 01:18:50 am
The enemy will be so confused trying to figure out what's happening that they'll never see themselves getting impaled!That's dazzle camouflage right there.There are no wild unicorns. What do you think Best Korea's spec-ops teams ride into battle on?Don't be ridiculous. We're clearly going to invade in order to protect the remaining wild unicorns!No, no, you're getting it all wrong, sheeple! It's the secret rubber reserves!I know, I know. I'm just going to go ahead and call that someone will come up with some theory about how there are secret oil reserves there that the U.S is trying to take. I agree wholeheartedly thou that there is some true oppression taking place there.Oh, come on. I think it is a little silly to pretend that there is not a moral imperative in this situation. This is North Korea we're talking about here. The ones that run actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? That won't even help their own people when given the opportunity?At this point the moral thing to do might actually be to invade NK and save their populace from the "government" they currently have.The oppressed cry out for democracy! And the U.S and her fellow capitalist shall deliver it! As soon as we move our drones from the middle east to asia, that is.
There are a lot of morally grey situations in politics, but this ain't one of them.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 09, 2013, 01:35:57 am
Post by: NobodyPro on March 09, 2013, 03:15:10 am
They've actually been spending all these years making their own Psy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0)-Bot.Psy-Ops?
Post by: Sheb on March 09, 2013, 03:42:41 am
Also, a question for you strife: what's the command structure as of now? Are the US units to be placed under Korean command in case of an attack by the North? What do you think of relations with your Koren counterparts? I guess the language barrier could be a problem.
Post by: miauw62 on March 09, 2013, 03:46:02 am
So what you're saying is that we should burn the house down?With the lemons?
Post by: Sir Finkus on March 09, 2013, 05:23:20 am
Kim Jong Il's Loving Care for Women (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)
Post by: Skyrunner on March 09, 2013, 05:43:12 am
Post by: Max White on March 09, 2013, 05:47:11 am
Pyongyang, March 8 (KCNA) -- On International Women's Day, the Korean women are sorely missing leader Kim Jong Il, who had shown loving care for them in his lifetime.
Jong Yon Ok, management board chairwoman of the Yonan County Township Co-op Farm in South Hwanghae Province, told that Kim Jong Il was the benevolent father of all the people including the women.
Leader Kim Jong Il indicated the road for the women movement to follow in each period and stage of the revolution and wisely guided them to play a pivotal role in developing the country.
Whenever he met women during his field guidance, he highly appreciated their devoted service for the country and society and showed all sorts of solicitude for them.
In Juche 100 (2011) alone, the last year of his life, he personally met with a large number of women. Among them are cooks in Taehung Youth Hero Mine, called "Pyongyang girls", a biologist and a management board chairwoman, a weaver, a member of art groups of servicemen's families and an artiste.
The song "My Wife" and "Pomhyanggi"-trademarked cosmetics are representations of his loving care for the women.
With such warm love and deep trust, he trained the women to be true revolutionaries and heroes of the times.
That is why the Korean women have devoted all their wisdom and energies to building a prosperous and powerful socialist nation, true to his noble intention.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 09, 2013, 06:28:43 am
Post by: Pnx on March 09, 2013, 10:09:10 am
For some comic relief, here's another statement put out by The KCNA on the same day.
Kim Jong Il's Loving Care for Women (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)
Can someone print-screen it for me? Korea blocks it thru the ISPs.Here you go Sky.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hemmingjay on March 09, 2013, 10:09:31 am
Yeah, but we're a very lethal trip wire at the least. To quote my old man talking about his time in Germany, we'd die defending that line, but we'd tear them to shreds with us, and let everything that goes through be destroyed by the other services.
It's a damn weird world we live in, where I could end up doing essentially the same thing my father dead, in a tank design older than I, to continue a war that my grandfather was almost es drafted for.
I served at Casey, Castle, Hovey and also month long rotations on the DMZ with the ROK Army. Our life expectancy was measured in seconds in case of artillery. The monthly/weekly alarm drills at 3am served as a constant reminder of how fragile our existence there is. Out of the 28,000 soldiers stationed there, about 6500 are combat soldiers. Motorpools are likely first strike targets and estimated losses by private contractors hovered around 30% for the first 2 hours. The sole purpose of the US forces there is to harass and retard the ingress of NK troups along the only main artery. 1st Group SF works well with ROK Black Berets and 160th SOAR and I imagine they would hit enemy supply lines and fortified Artillery positions within 8 hours. If the port(the only deep water port in SK isn't nuked then 48 hours after another 3 regiments would be on the ground(2 Marine, 1 Army) from Okinawa, Guam and the Phillipines. Coastal shelling and airstrikes would be decimating the artillery and anti-aircraft emplacements. Large charges would be set off near the DMZ to collapse as many tunnels as possible(a favorite tactic of NK).
This is just one of many conservative estimates that are constantly speculated on.
Most likely it would be bloody 2-4 weeks followed by rapid cease-fire agreements. I also don't think NK has any intention of shelling civilian areas outside of collateral near the base in Seoul as they need the support of the people and theoretically the economic backbone in place.
Please note that I have not included Chinese involvement as it is always a great unknown. They have three choices, and the best one for us is if they do not get involved at all, lest we forget the Battle of Chipyong-ni
EDIT: I still place the odds of anything happening around 2-5% a day with odds decreasing daily.
Post by: Felius on March 09, 2013, 04:37:16 pm
For some comic relief, here's another statement put out by The KCNA on the same day.Gotta love that site. The propaganda is so blatant it's unreal. If I didn't know about N.Korea and someone showed me a piece from there, I would seriously doubt it was actually a serious piece, and not some form of sick parody. Poe's Law is valid for political propaganda as well I guess... :P
Kim Jong Il's Loving Care for Women (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)
Post by: Sensei on March 10, 2013, 08:23:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 10, 2013, 08:46:33 am
Yeah, I believe last year they discovered cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.Before or after the unicorn fossils.
Post by: RedKing on March 10, 2013, 08:52:49 am
Yeah, I believe last yearftfythey discoveredKim Jong Un invented cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 10, 2013, 09:13:16 am
Yeah, I believe last year they discovered cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.If I recall correctly, North Korean "discoveries" happened when Kim Jong-il was still alive.
I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?
Post by: Frumple on March 10, 2013, 09:14:57 am
No, no, discovered was the right verb. Ancient ruins, man. The god-kings of yesteryear had the best loot. Just a couple miles out from the unicorn lair and a few hundred feet from the unicron lair, which is why it took so long to find the unicorn one after digging up cold fusion and the elixir of life.Yeah, I believe last yearftfythey discoveredKim Jong Un invented cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 09:15:47 am
That or the 180,000 North Korean operatives roaming around Korea.Yeah, I believe last year they discovered cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.If I recall correctly, North Korean "discoveries" happened when Kim Jong-il was still alive.
I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?
Post by: hemmingjay on March 10, 2013, 12:03:48 pm
Yeah, I believe last year they discovered cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.If I recall correctly, North Korean "discoveries" happened when Kim Jong-il was still alive.
I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?
They don't want the population exposed to delusional propoganda. An example is how they change stories about US soldiers to try to further their agenda to get US troops off the peninsula. There have been 3 official cases where rape charges have been brought against US soldiers in the last 10 years in South Korea. Only one was found to be a legitimate crime against a South Korean civilian. There have been several other incidents where claims were made and later the accuser has been found to be "influenced" by political and financial forces. The NK
Post by: Doomblade187 on March 10, 2013, 12:14:22 pm
I'm not doubtful, but I am curious about the stories, in a morbid fashion.Yeah, I believe last year they discovered cold fusion and an energy drink that makes people younger.If I recall correctly, North Korean "discoveries" happened when Kim Jong-il was still alive.
I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?
They don't want the population exposed to delusional propoganda. An example is how they change stories about US soldiers to try to further their agenda to get US troops off the peninsula. There have been 3 official cases where rape charges have been brought against US soldiers in the last 10 years in South Korea. Only one was found to be a legitimate crime against a South Korean civilian. There have been several other incidents where claims were made and later the accuser has been found to be "influenced" by political and financial forces. The NKpropogandanews service frequently reports that US soldiers ride around raping and shooting civilians and the law enforcement who tries to stop them are also gunned down. Considering how NK intentionally keeps it's people uneducated, it is likely that a large portion of their population believes most of the B.S. that NK spouts. I can post sources for examples of these crazy stories if anyone is doubtful.
Post by: hemmingjay on March 10, 2013, 12:22:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 10, 2013, 01:36:47 pm
I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?South Korea has a high level of internet censorship.
Post by: Fniff on March 10, 2013, 03:57:59 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 10, 2013, 04:05:43 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 10, 2013, 04:07:29 pm
Post by: Fniff on March 10, 2013, 04:16:42 pm
No access to porn = playing lots of online games.
Knowing the look of ladies in MMOs, that's probably the closest they get to porn.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 04:28:46 pm
The Korean Peninsula is full of Juicy Contradictions! ® (Yo Starburst, where my endorsment fee at?)Oh no! Guerrilla marketing warfare!
Post by: Owlbread on March 10, 2013, 05:10:43 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 05:45:51 pm
"Everyone who's saying China would do something, I honestly don't think that's the case.
Back in 1950, the situation was very different. Mao Zedong had just driven the KMT off the mainland, and was trying to consolidate his power in Beijing. The Chinese were devastated from literally decades of war, and Mao was looking for a way to unite people under the PRC banner. The war in Korea provided the perfect opportunity. Additionally, the Chicoms looked over the border into North Korea, saw it collapsing, and saw the capitalist Americans behind the wheel. They got mighty nervous once the KMT's strongest backers got within invading distance of the newly-minted PRC, especially with an incredibly bellicose general in MacArthur at the head of the offensive. Additionally, the PRC wasn't the economic powerhouse it is today, and it had no formal relations with the United States, and regarded it as little more than an imperialist aggressor. The impetus to attack was there.
Today, things are much more delicate for the PRC. The old animosity they had with the United States is long gone, replaced by dollar signs in their eyes from all the massive bilateral trade agreements. Sure, they're trying to ape our military tech and counter our might, but they're too invested in us, and we in them, to make that move. Additionally, they've got lucrative trade deals in place with the South Koreans, Japanese and the various constituents of the European Union, as well; all of which are potential allies in a war with North Korea. The Chinese wouldn't just be facing half the civilized world in combat if they defended the North, they'd lose so much capital it would send them spiraling into an economic collapse."
-Anon from /k, they know their shit. MacArthur quite literally wanted to destroy China and nuke everything. America doesn't want to fight China, nor vice versa. No one really wants to take over North Korea because it'll be so costly, and if the North Koreans do anything rash the People's gargantuan army will rush in and take over, setting up a new government that isn't so crazy. And people would be ok with this, for this would be an awesome outcome. The North Koreans cannot take South Korea. If they attempted to, it'd be at massive loss of life to the North Koreans - and this would be the greatest tragedy.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 10, 2013, 06:13:58 pm
That any civilized nation would have a huge degree of internet censorship is appalling. I mean, restricting access to gorn or kiddyporn is one thing, but not even allowing your citizens to point and laugh at their neighbors to the north? That's despicable.I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?South Korea has a high level of internet censorship.
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 10, 2013, 06:56:42 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 06:58:14 pm
Since when has 4chan been a reliable source? But anon's probably right.The power of the internet is that everything can be fact checked to the horizons of reachable space in time and back.
Post by: ShoesandHats on March 10, 2013, 06:59:16 pm
That any civilized nation would have a huge degree of internet censorship is appalling. I mean, restricting access to gorn or kiddyporn is one thing, but not even allowing your citizens to point and laugh at their neighbors to the north? That's despicable.I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?South Korea has a high level of internet censorship.
Exactly. I'm pretty sure it's in the constitution that we're allowed to make fun of Canada.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 10, 2013, 07:18:48 pm
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Taunting Canadians, and the pursuit of Happiness."Exactly. I'm pretty sure it's in the constitution that we're allowed to make fun of Canada.That any civilized nation would have a huge degree of internet censorship is appalling. I mean, restricting access to gorn or kiddyporn is one thing, but not even allowing your citizens to point and laugh at their neighbors to the north? That's despicable.I wonder, why North Korean websites are blocked inside South Korea? Is the South Korean government so afraid of potential sympathisers?South Korea has a high level of internet censorship.
Post by: Immortal on March 10, 2013, 07:41:46 pm
Also I don't believe NK will do anything. I mean unless China begins to put real pressure on them and cut aid, then things may get quite ugly. There country doesn't even have enough fuel to run their tanks on their own.
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2013, 07:56:01 pm
Nothing will come of this, I tell you this now. Nothing by way of military conflict anyway. The North Korean leadership isn't stupid - they know exactly what they're doing.
“Thou dost not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed”
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 07:56:45 pm
Nothing will come of this, I tell you this now. Nothing by way of military conflict anyway. The North Korean leadership isn't stupid - they know exactly what they're doing.
“Thou dost not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed”
"Heads or tails?"
-HQ of every military operation, ever.
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2013, 08:01:10 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 10, 2013, 08:01:59 pm
Point being that coin flip has probably done a better job over the generations than overthinking has.
... I'd actually be kinda' interested to see what the beneficial outcome of coin-based decision making has been in a statistical sense, thinking on it. Someone should start tracking those in the population and noting down which ones end well.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 10, 2013, 08:18:06 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 10, 2013, 08:23:13 pm
Point being that coin flip has probably done a better job over the generations than overthinking has.Coin-based decision making is probably a bad idea, but I've heard that flipping a coin to decide between two options is a good idea if you're indecisive, because while it is in the air you'll know what you really want to do.
... I'd actually be kinda' interested to see what the beneficial outcome of coin-based decision making has been in a statistical sense, thinking on it. Someone should start tracking those in the population and noting down which ones end well.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 10, 2013, 08:32:02 pm
Hey, it's a legit decision making method. Sometimes you just have two identically virtuous options, in which case rational decision making is unable to choose. So you choose an irrational method because there's not a justifiable reason to pick one choice over the other and either will do.We do that on our NROTC academic team (Or at least some of us do) when we are faced with a question where we are unable to decided between two answers. Like the one we took last Friday. We had a question where we had to place aluminum, copper, and silver in order according to conductivity. Once I figured it out (Or at least I think I did), I came to the realization that the question was about as ambiguous as you could get. WHAT order? So it came down to a coin flip.
Point being that coin flip has probably done a better job over the generations than overthinking has.
... I'd actually be kinda' interested to see what the beneficial outcome of coin-based decision making has been in a statistical sense, thinking on it. Someone should start tracking those in the population and noting down which ones end well.
Post by: Frumple on March 10, 2013, 08:36:18 pm
Coin-based decision making is probably a bad idea, but I've heard that flipping a coin to decide between two options is a good idea if you're indecisive, because while it is in the air you'll know what you really want to do.Yeah, more along those lines is what I meant. If you've got two (or a few, you can break it down pretty easy using a single coin) options that are as good or nearly as good (or at least you have no particularly strong reason to choose one over the other), then a coin flip can save some time. Mostly I'm just sorta' curious if reality has some kind of strange coin-flip bias where choices made like that (between two relatively good options) tend to come out better than not. Maybe it (reducing your field of choices to a small pool of acceptable ones and then choosing pseudo-randomly) is a more optimal strategy than actually deciding! I don't think anyone's actually ran the numbers, so... it could be.
Not sure if I'd use indecisive particularly, though. More of an ambivalence thing. Indecision would indicate sitting around and trying to figure out the better choice instead of just choosing and not really caring what the outcome is. Most of the decisions I make via coin flip (which, being fair, mostly revolve around what's for dinner) certainly aren't made in mid air, though. I just don't really care what I eat (well, among the foodstuffs I keep regularly) and flipping a coin is more fun than grabbing the first thing I pull out of the food bag* sometimes. Heads means the food that comes earlier in the alphabet, tails the one later.
*I keep most of my canned food and non-perishables in a single large bag (I think it was originally a laundry bag or something, I'unno.), which I reasonably refer to as the food bag. Lunch generally consists of reaching into the bag and cooking whatever comes out, but sometimes I flip for it.
Post by: Another on March 11, 2013, 03:04:24 am
Classical example is rock-paper-scissors. Pure random choice is unbeatable (while not winning either) and every deterministic strategy is worse because it will fail in the long run when your adversary figures out what it is. Games with more complex fixed known rules like poker may require going like 72% for one decision, 26% for another an 2% for a third to be truly theoretically optimal but that can be reduced to 7 coin flips.
I think there are a few theoretical scenarios where doing this on a battlefield can be not a bad idea in tactical sense though I'd say that is never a good method for strategical decisions.
I really hope that NK does not think they are just playing a game of chicken with acceptable to them high stakes. Classical (limited) madness may be not as dangerous.
Post by: NobodyPro on March 11, 2013, 07:01:36 am
They don't want the population exposed to delusional propoganda. An example is how they change stories about US soldiers to try to further their agenda to get US troops off the peninsula. There have been 3 official cases where rape charges have been brought against US soldiers in the last 10 years in South Korea. Only one was found to be a legitimate crime against a South Korean civilian. There have been several other incidents where claims were made and later the accuser has been found to be "influenced" by political and financial forces. The NKpropogandanews service frequently reports that US soldiers ride around raping and shooting civilians and the law enforcement who tries to stop them are also gunned down. Considering how NK intentionally keeps it's people uneducated, it is likely that a large portion of their population believes most of the B.S. that NK spouts. I can post sources for examples of these crazy stories if anyone is doubtful.
Quote
The statement recalled that GIs in south Korea went on shooting spree against passers-by and when police rushed to the scene, informed of the incident, they drove their truck over them, before taking to flight.
Post by: shadenight123 on March 11, 2013, 07:20:00 am
Does it mean North and South are now back at 'War' status, thus meaning there's another war going on in the world?
And should Nukes be actually used...
How much of North Korea would remain by the next hour?
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 07:36:07 am
Post by: RedKing on March 11, 2013, 07:55:40 am
For instance, Andorra was still technically at war with Germany until 1958. Costa Rica was at war with Germany from 1918 UNTIL 1945. One of the longest examples was the Isles of Scilly, which were omitted from the Treaty of Westminster and so were technically at war with the Netherlands from 1651 to 1986.
There's an apocryphal story that Sweden declared war on San Marino during the Napoleonic era, and nobody remembered to ever sign a formal peace treaty, so they're still at war.
Post by: Strife26 on March 11, 2013, 07:58:23 am
In the event that a nuclear weapon was used, it'd almost certainly be of a tactical sort (due to their limited proficiency, especially in delivery system), which is nothing to sneeze at. However, I would doubt that the united states would respond by turning the entirety of the State into a glowing crater, for lots of reasons, but foremost because permanently fucking up the peninsula isn't a good thing. I think that seeing an attack on a SK/US troop concentration much more likely.
Casualty-wise, you're almost going to certainly see fairly heavy causalities amongst Republic of Korea troops as well as the US troops currently there, shortly followed by utterly disastrous causalities amongst PRK troops as superior air power, technology, reinforcements, artillery, ect. ect. ect. come into play.
Unknown numbers of civilian death, but almost certainly noticeable, especially in early stage shelling. PRK arty ain't known for accuracy.
Exactly what effect NK commando forces would have is pretty tough to guess, but I'd guess that the RoK would be up to policing the country, at least after the first shock is over.
And finally, there'd be a country of very impoverished, very unskilled workers to try to absorb into the region, which would destabilize both China and South Korea to heck and back.
Post by: Another on March 11, 2013, 08:31:33 am
Although direct land connection to South Korea should be economically advantageous in the long run for everybody.
Post by: Owlbread on March 11, 2013, 08:56:17 am
Nothing will come of this, I tell you this now. Nothing by way of military conflict anyway. The North Korean leadership isn't stupid - they know exactly what they're doing.
“Thou dost not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed”
Coming from the UK I'm all too aware of that. I still think though if a government like that of the DPRK can govern a state comparable in brutality to Pol Pot's Cambodia well into the second decade of the 21st century, then they wouldn't be so stupid as to launch nuclear missiles at the USA.
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 09:19:58 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 11, 2013, 09:35:05 am
Remember, if the leader's a twat, even if his followers are competent there's going to be stupid decisions being made.
That may be so, but I wouldn't call Mr. Kim a twat yet.
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 09:51:18 am
Also, another problem can be with the followers themselves. Sure, Kim could be going "This is aggressive posturing, don't take it seriously" but then again some sergeant who isn't in on the loop that it's just saber rattling who is on the DMZ could see some South Korean troops making funny faces at them and yell "THIS IS IT! THIS IS THE TIME OF RECKONING! MEN, CHARGE!" and then shit goes to fuck.
Post by: Owlbread on March 11, 2013, 09:56:24 am
I'd call him a twat on the basis of executing political dissidents and starving people, but the term twat is kinda vague.
Also, another problem can be with the followers themselves. Sure, Kim could be going "This is aggressive posturing, don't take it seriously" but then again some sergeant who isn't in on the loop that it's just saber rattling who is on the DMZ could see some South Korean troops making funny faces at them and yell "THIS IS IT! THIS IS THE TIME OF RECKONING! MEN, CHARGE!" and then shit goes to fuck.
I assumed you were using the term "twat" to refer to him being stupid, not being a horrible bastard. Which he is.
I would also hope the DPRK would have a handle on guys like that but that is quite a good point. The army is becoming a bit of a law unto itself and has been raiding farms and houses for food for about 20 years now, on-and-off during times of famine. The South Korean troops won't be making funny faces though. Have you seen them? They look about 6 foot 5 in comparison to the North Korean soldiers, and they always wear huge sunglasses.
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 10:02:43 am
I'd call him a twat on the basis of executing political dissidents and starving people, but the term twat is kinda vague.
Also, another problem can be with the followers themselves. Sure, Kim could be going "This is aggressive posturing, don't take it seriously" but then again some sergeant who isn't in on the loop that it's just saber rattling who is on the DMZ could see some South Korean troops making funny faces at them and yell "THIS IS IT! THIS IS THE TIME OF RECKONING! MEN, CHARGE!" and then shit goes to fuck.
I assumed you were using the term "twat" to refer to him being stupid, not being a horrible bastard. Which he is.
I would also hope the DPRK would have a handle on guys like that but that is quite a good point. The army is becoming a bit of a law unto itself and has been raiding farms and houses for food for about 20 years now, on-and-off during times of famine. The South Korean troops won't be making funny faces though. Have you seen them? They look about 6 foot 5 in comparison to the North Korean soldiers, and they always wear huge sunglasses.
It could also be that some SK soldier is messing about with his friend and shoots a bird as a laugh, and the sergeant thinks it's the first shots of the war, or he thinks a road flare in the distance is actually a mortar being fired, or he thinks that a plane flying overhead is actually going in for a bombing run, or whatever infinite accidents and mistakes that could happen.
Post by: Sheb on March 11, 2013, 10:31:07 am
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 10:35:37 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 11, 2013, 10:40:32 am
Also, important fact: most of the front lines are 1 km or further apart, so you can't see any funny faces. Except maybe at Panmunjung, but there the North soldiers only look at each other to prevent one from making a break towards the south, with a third officer standing backwards and looking at the NK building.
In contrast, the 180 cm tall soldiers from the south (they specifically pick intimidating-looking people) are staring at the north. Being a thousand times or more richer helps things a bit :p No-one in his right mind will make a break towards NK, not now.
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 10:45:42 am
Private: "What?"
Sergeant: "This pigdog worstkorea prat is making funny faces at us!"
Private: "How did you know that?"
Sergeant: "Well, I have a telescope."
Private: "Oooh."
Post by: DJ on March 11, 2013, 11:03:29 am
A soldier can't shoot a bird as a joke, because every shell they fire has to be accounted for.When my brother was in mandatory military service (used to be that all able-bodied men had to serve 6 months) there was this one crazy guy with him who shot and killed a rabbit while on guard duty. He served a month of prison and became a legend of his generation.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 11, 2013, 11:29:50 am
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 11:33:17 am
Post by: RedKing on March 11, 2013, 11:38:36 am
Sergeant: "Oi!"....Now I'm picturing the North Korean army as WH40K Orkz.
Private: "What?"
Sergeant: "This pigdog worstkorea prat is making funny faces at us!"
"Oi! Come on you stinkin' grots! We's da BEST Kree-uns! If'n da Big Boss gets onna boat, youse best be splashin' about an' chasin' him propa!"
North Korea: Where WMD means With More Dakka.
Post by: Fniff on March 11, 2013, 11:40:00 am
Sergeant: "Oi!"....Now I'm picturing the North Korean army as WH40K Orkz.
Private: "What?"
Sergeant: "This pigdog worstkorea prat is making funny faces at us!"
"Oi! Come on you stinkin' grots! We's da BEST Kree-uns! If'n da Big Boss gets onna boat, youse best be splashin' about an' chasin' him propa!"
North Korea: Where WMD means With More Dakka.
South Korean Propaganda Department (Because if North Korea has one, surely South Korea does too?), we'll let you guys have this one. Hell, I'll give a tip. Picture of orks on the left, space marines on the right. Bottom, text: "We're the ones on the right. The other one is North Korea. We'll let you do the math."
Post by: olemars on March 11, 2013, 11:53:30 am
A soldier can't shoot a bird as a joke, because every shell they fire has to be accounted for.When my brother was in mandatory military service (used to be that all able-bodied men had to serve 6 months) there was this one crazy guy with him who shot and killed a rabbit while on guard duty. He served a month of prison and became a legend of his generation.
When I did my 1 year conscription they eliminated the whole possibility by not issuing live ammo to any guard soldiers.
Post by: RedKing on March 11, 2013, 11:56:39 am
That explains 1940. :P (I kid, I kid! Not in the face!!)A soldier can't shoot a bird as a joke, because every shell they fire has to be accounted for.When my brother was in mandatory military service (used to be that all able-bodied men had to serve 6 months) there was this one crazy guy with him who shot and killed a rabbit while on guard duty. He served a month of prison and became a legend of his generation.
When I did my 1 year conscription they eliminated the whole possibility by not issuing live ammo to any guard soldiers.
Post by: olemars on March 11, 2013, 12:15:48 pm
That explains 1940. :P (I kid, I kid! Not in the face!!)A soldier can't shoot a bird as a joke, because every shell they fire has to be accounted for.When my brother was in mandatory military service (used to be that all able-bodied men had to serve 6 months) there was this one crazy guy with him who shot and killed a rabbit while on guard duty. He served a month of prison and became a legend of his generation.
When I did my 1 year conscription they eliminated the whole possibility by not issuing live ammo to any guard soldiers.
Quick edit-fix you did there but I had time to spot your GROSS HISTORICAL INACCURACY
Post by: RedKing on March 11, 2013, 12:44:29 pm
Actually, it's because I thought you were Polish for some reason. :-[That explains 1940. :P (I kid, I kid! Not in the face!!)A soldier can't shoot a bird as a joke, because every shell they fire has to be accounted for.When my brother was in mandatory military service (used to be that all able-bodied men had to serve 6 months) there was this one crazy guy with him who shot and killed a rabbit while on guard duty. He served a month of prison and became a legend of his generation.
When I did my 1 year conscription they eliminated the whole possibility by not issuing live ammo to any guard soldiers.
Quick edit-fix you did there but I had time to spot your GROSS HISTORICAL INACCURACY
Post by: Owlbread on March 11, 2013, 01:47:08 pm
Also, North Korea is very high on discipline. They've been known to sentence people to work camps/ death sentence for as little as making the wrong radio announcements where Americans/South Koreans could hear it. I consider an accidental misfire quite unlikely.
Not only that, if you escape they'll put your entire close family (about as far as cousins and uncles I think) into prison camps. There was a story I read about a guy who made a joke about Kim jong-il's height when drunk and was sent to a prison camp, and within the camps it's even worse - people being shot multiple times and killed by guards for trying to pick up two nuts from the ground to eat because of starvation. Then you get into the human experimentation stories (according to an escapee who claims to have been an officer in a camp and supervised gas chambers and poisoning men, women and children to death) and forced abortions and rape and torture and abuse etc. It's even more screwed up when you hear about the kids born in these camps and it's all they know. That officer I saw in a documentary was also pretty frank about what he did - he believed then, in his own words, that the prisoners weren't human/were subhuman. A bit like the attitudes of imperial japanese soldiers towards POWs.
If even 40% of that is true, we're going to see a lot of bad shit when the DPRK finally collapses and we gain access to the truth. If you want more information, read a book called "The Aquariums of Pyongyang" by Kang chol-hwan, or perhaps "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick.
Post by: DJ on March 11, 2013, 03:32:21 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 12, 2013, 06:09:28 pm
Post by: Owlbread on March 12, 2013, 06:32:08 pm
I like Mr. Key's honesty. "Everybody would die."
EDIT: I must of course clarify that this is a satirical article to avoid further confusion.
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2013, 06:39:09 pm
Quote from: Reporter
Could we not at least evacuate the targeted city?
Quote from: Key
Not in time, probably not. No.
I might call that brutal honesty.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 12, 2013, 06:43:10 pm
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/north-korea-threatens-new-zealand-with-nuclear-strike-nothing-we-can-do-says-key/Same with Australia's. To be fair, Kim Jong-Un wouldn't nuke New Zealand.
I like Mr. Key's honesty. "Everybody would die."
Huh, I just found something weird, apparently the notion of people attacking New Zealand inspires intense rage in me. RAGE THAT WOULD MAKE ME WANT TO KILL EVERYTHING WITH FIREI AROEAROAUER
No one nukes New Zealand D:<
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2013, 06:43:38 pm
Post by: Pnx on March 12, 2013, 06:44:18 pm
North Korea ACTUALLY nullified the cease-fire today, as they've been threatening to do. Appearantly, so far, they've only actually ever threatened.This also coincides with the annual US-South Korean military drills that are right now kicking off. You can bet they probably did this on purpose. Still doesn't really change anything, this situation is still broadly the same.
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/north-korea-threatens-new-zealand-with-nuclear-strike-nothing-we-can-do-says-key/
I like Mr. Key's honesty. "Everybody would die."
Quote
While the government appeared disinterested in doing anything about the nuclear strike, there were some promising indications of external aid from abroad. Tonga’s Prime Minister, Sialeʻataongo Tuʻivakanō, promised that he would “look out for any missiles”, and Prime Minister of Australia Julia Gillard phoned Bill English last night to assure him that, in the event of a nuclear attack, Australia would do everything it could to provide additional news coverage.I love this last part.
Post by: Max White on March 12, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/north-korea-threatens-new-zealand-with-nuclear-strike-nothing-we-can-do-says-key/It sounds like a very annoyed man has had a long night dealing with political bullshit and is unwilling to play the smile and lie game. He knows the situation, we know the situation, might as well be honest about it.
I like Mr. Key's honesty. "Everybody would die."
Good man.
Post by: Pnx on March 12, 2013, 06:47:34 pm
Post by: mainiac on March 12, 2013, 06:47:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on March 12, 2013, 06:47:47 pm
Preeeeety sure that's satire.
Satire though it may be, the funny thing is Mr. Key would say everything in that article. It is also sadly very true - if the DPRK did target New Zealand, there would be nothing they could do. It's actually quite a good idea to hold New Zealand for ransom rather than the USA.
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2013, 06:48:57 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 12, 2013, 06:49:20 pm
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2013, 06:52:50 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 12, 2013, 06:55:54 pm
Right, thinking that's satire now. "Teenager killed by flying pie", anyone?
I figured it was satire as soon as it said that NK admitted that it's threat against the US was overly ambitious. Australia's offer to provide additional Media Coverage just sealed the deal.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 12, 2013, 06:56:48 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 12, 2013, 07:06:50 pm
Post by: Fniff on March 12, 2013, 07:09:14 pm
Post by: olemars on March 13, 2013, 03:35:02 am
Does North Korea have the miniaturization technology to actually put a nuke on a missile? It's one thing to detonate a nuke underground. It's another thing to make it small and reliable enough to deliver it long distance.
Extrmely unlikely.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 13, 2013, 05:33:48 pm
Well, their missiles have, thus far, had a somewhat low success rate, and their nukes are still too large. They can't make a bomb because it'd be shot down way too easily.How do you shoot down a theoretical concept?
THE NORTH KOREANS ARE DROPPING THE BOMB! AW YEAH!
Post by: Mephansteras on March 13, 2013, 05:37:10 pm
See. Easy to shoot down an idea! :P
Post by: Yoink on March 13, 2013, 05:50:06 pm
Dude, mean. You're going to make Kimmy cry! :-\
Post by: Owlbread on March 13, 2013, 06:03:40 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 13, 2013, 06:04:30 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 13, 2013, 06:07:07 pm
I think we're going to have a lot of people running around like headless chickens until this crisis is resolved.
If I didn't know you better, and this phrase, I'd say you were making a TERRIBLE terrible pun.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 13, 2013, 06:25:33 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 13, 2013, 07:50:09 pm
C'mon guys. All this talk about military first and this is the best you've got?
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 13, 2013, 07:53:08 pm
If North Korea attacks, we may not have to worry about enemy tanks:http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398 (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398)A good Tire Kingdom there would improve their military by a factor of at least eight or seven. I mean, really? RICE STRAW?
C'mon guys. All this talk about military first and this is the best you've got?
Post by: Flying Dice on March 13, 2013, 07:54:16 pm
If North Korea attacks, we may not have to worry about enemy tanks:http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398 (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398)Don't you understand? Tank drivers who can't drive are scary. Sensible tankers will steer clear of cities and infantry for fear of AT weapons and traps, but incompetent ones will pull Commissar antics and try to run over everything.
C'mon guys. All this talk about military first and this is the best you've got?
Post by: Lightningfalcon on March 13, 2013, 07:56:04 pm
"Drive me closer! I want to swing my turret to bludgeon them!"If North Korea attacks, we may not have to worry about enemy tanks:http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398 (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10398)Don't you understand? Tank drivers who can't drive are scary. Sensible tankers will steer clear of cities and infantry for fear of AT weapons and traps, but incompetent ones will pull Commissar antics and try to run over everything.
C'mon guys. All this talk about military first and this is the best you've got?
Post by: mainiac on March 13, 2013, 10:34:59 pm
"Drive me closer! I want to swing my turret to bludgeon them!"
But they ran out of oil for the turret hydraulics back in 1963.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 13, 2013, 10:55:24 pm
"Drive me closer! I want to swing my turret to bludgeon them!"
But they ran out of oil for the turret hydraulics back in 1963.
North Korea uses draft animals to tow their tanks and traverse the turrets.
Post by: mainiac on March 13, 2013, 11:01:57 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 13, 2013, 11:06:15 pm
I figure there is a non-negligible chance that after North Korea comes to a merciful end we will learn that the artillery they are threatening Seoul with is nearly all inoperable. If so, people 50 years from now will wonder what the fuss was about and how we could not have realized that nothing North Korean worked.they have nuclear weapons. It is literally the foundation of their regime. A nuclear weapon is a non-trivial piece of hardware. Sure, we can make jokes, but that is not something your average state can whip up in a lab.
Also, the artillery threat isn't the one they mentioned, it's the one we figured out based on their capabilities. We know what works and what doesn't. And we know their tanks don't work, but their Artillery sure does.
Post by: Strife26 on March 14, 2013, 12:58:22 am
I figure there is a non-negligible chance that after North Korea comes to a merciful end we will learn that the artillery they are threatening Seoul with is nearly all inoperable. If so, people 50 years from now will wonder what the fuss was about and how we could not have realized that nothing North Korean worked.they have nuclear weapons. It is literally the foundation of their regime. A nuclear weapon is a non-trivial piece of hardware. Sure, we can make jokes, but that is not something your average state can whip up in a lab.
Also, the artillery threat isn't the one they mentioned, it's the one we figured out based on their capabilities. We know what works and what doesn't. And we know their tanks don't work, but their Artillery sure does.
Yeah, throwing a round on a trajectory arc isn't a super complicated process. Accuracy is somewhat more touchy, but South Korea isn't a particularly small target.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 14, 2013, 01:08:53 am
Hey Skyrunner (or anyone else who knows Korean), does the North Korean government really sound that ridiculous all the time in Korean, or is some of that a translation issue?Yes.
:P
They talk in a distinctive style that's made fun of often and they also are stupidly obviou in thir propangda. There's a reason SK doesn't worry about the North->South propangda (we're rich and they sound hilarious) but NK flips out every time something comes their way.
Also, we know their artillery works because they used it on Yunpyungdo a couple years back.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 14, 2013, 01:12:25 am
Post by: Sheb on March 14, 2013, 02:45:00 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 14, 2013, 02:46:55 am
Post by: Sheb on March 14, 2013, 02:50:33 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 14, 2013, 02:56:48 am
A. Old equipment of an unknown reliability (they can't exactly test it).
B. Supply lines that can't function even in peacetime, greatly limiting the amount of fire the artillery can put out since they'll run out of shells sooner rather than later.
C. The Seventh Fleet. Just the Seventh Fleet. NK's side of the DMZ will cease to exist by the time they're done bombarding it.
D. The North Koreans are going to have far more important targets than Seoul. Seoul isn't going to be shooting back at them. The joint ROK-USA forces will be. Even if they're ordered to prioritize Seoul, it is hard to ignore people attacking you.
In total, I'd put Seoul's casualties at the single thousands at most, and zero if everything goes according to plan (I'm assuming 50 years was enough time for us to come up with a plan).
As for the North Koreans, the sad fact is that this would be war. Worrying about your opposition's wellbeing just isn't on the table. The upside is that it wouldn't take long for the mass surrenders to start, with or without the approval of NK's government. No bullets, no rations, no war.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 14, 2013, 03:32:05 am
I'm pretty sure the gov't has no good idea what to do if it does have to happen.
Post by: sneakey pete on March 14, 2013, 04:00:31 am
Post by: Max White on March 14, 2013, 04:03:57 am
Post by: alway on March 14, 2013, 04:05:44 am
And the source post, a very in-depth analysis of NK strike capability. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29
It's a good enough analysis that I think I recall seeing it linked from news sites like CNN at one point.
As for why they have so much military equipment... Yeah, that's kinda a big part of why they are so poor.
Here's the image of AA emplacements' range around Pyongyang
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: sneakey pete on March 14, 2013, 04:40:19 am
What i'm saying is, the north has a lot, I just don't see how 300 US aircraft are going to manage to completely avoid being at all shot down themselves (old missile equipment doesn't make them immune, look at Iraq 1 or 2 or Bosnia, though to be fair the US shot down more US aircraft than iraq did in the second war there), and then manage to destroy the entire north korean Armour and artillery force.
Post by: Boea on March 14, 2013, 04:47:04 am
Post by: DJ on March 14, 2013, 04:53:45 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 14, 2013, 06:11:37 am
There are two possible scenarios for the start of the war:
a) a escalating border incident;
b) USA and South Korea launch a full-scale invasion of North Korea, aimed at overthrowing the North Korean regime.
The threat of American invasion is why North Korean nuclear program exists. It is aimed to deter possible invasion attempts by the USA, not for the purpose of randomly launching nukes at Seoul/Tokyo/Washington for the evulz.
Post by: mainiac on March 14, 2013, 06:47:18 am
they have nuclear weapons. It is literally the foundation of their regime.
No they don't. They have the ability to create an nuclear explosion in a stationary location inside North Korea. They have exactly zero capability to use that as an offensive weapon.
Post by: jimboo on March 14, 2013, 06:55:00 am
1) approx. 25% of all S. Koreans live in Seoul. That's a lot and it's because most of the country is quite mountainous.
2) all of Seoul is within simple artillery range of the northern side of the DMZ. No one in the south actually expects an invasion although there have been some truly amazing tunnels discovered (one was filled with T- tanks, 3 wide and that's some tunnel). The ballistic missles are an ego and PR exercise/demonstration much like the Red Square parades. S. Koreans are concerned primarily with a first strike by conventional artillery and short-range surface-to-surface missiles -- of which the North has a lot. A simple artillery shell doesn't have to be filled with explosives: when the US and former Soviet Union signed on to the Biological Weapons Convention, the majority of biological weapons that were destroyed from stockpiles were American -- ingenous design artillery shells, two-chambered with a shear-unstable separation film that allowed the sprial trajectory to mix two chemicals and then explode 200 feet in the air as a cloud of Sarin gas. N. Korea has acceded to the treaty but ...
3) it is, by definition, hard to predict the behavior of whackos. Even China is presently concerned with the military in N. Korea and that's significant. China's interest is purely self-serving; the part of China that borders N. Korea has more ethnic Koreans than Han Chinese living there and it's in Beijing's interest not to have an immigrant flood of foreigners.
4) Ever seen that old movie, "The Mouse That Roared"? That's the frightening scenario (the first part of the plot, not the comedic twist)
Post by: Skyrunner on March 14, 2013, 07:19:54 am
This here link. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29) Mentions that the missiles are more dangerous than artillery, and a bunch of other interesting facts.
Also, it happens that I live in Seoul...
Post by: Sheb on March 14, 2013, 07:23:01 am
But yeah, NK ain't going to attack for real. They just know they'd loose. As I said before, I'm more worried about the US/SK deciding they need to strike while they can, before NK get working tactical nukes. Since NK's main export is casus belli, god know when it'd happen.
Post by: jimboo on March 14, 2013, 08:19:36 am
This here link. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29) Mentions that the missiles are more dangerous than artillery, and a bunch of other interesting facts.
Also, it happens that I live in Seoul...
It’s an interesting link, thanks for that. It isn’t 100% factually correct but not even the different branches of the same military ever agree on everything, so …
Living in Seoul -- Yeah, I figured that. But we’re of different generations; some of the people I deal with in Seoul are veterans and many grew up learning Japanese in school. As it was once explained to me, “you can tell whether someone remembers the time of the war just by asking their opinion about keeping American troops in S. Korea.” Most of the world believes WWII started in 1939, some nationalist Germans say 1936. Some historians argue (with some merit) there was actually only one war with an interim between WWI and WWII. Neither date makes much difference to people in Korea, however, since the occupation by Japan dates to 1876 and was finalized in 1910. Americans, we are for the most part a provincial people and not particularly well-schooled in world history; I remember being taught in grade school that the first “iron-clad ships” were the Monitor and the Merrimac from the American Civil War. Nobody teaches Americans about the Turtle.
As to “only northern Seoul is within artillery range” – that’s a matter of semantics and what one defines as “artillery.” Many people think of battery guns or something that can be pulled behind a truck. As a practical matter, any block of Seoul is within range of a projectile coming from the other side. Thinking of modern “artillery” reminds me,
Multiple-tube launchers are actually a Korean invention too, aren’t they? This is really stretching the limits of memory but – Hwachaa? (Strong memories from Korea are things like bulgogi, Han dresses and Nakji. Especially Nakji. :) )
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 12:27:21 pm
Post by: Fniff on March 14, 2013, 12:29:02 pm
Don't just expect mass surrender, these people choose to live in a country that is irrational.
Ehhh, I wouldn't say choose... I mean, you could get out, but that's like saying "You could assassinate the glorious leader". It's really risky and dangerous.
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 12:38:31 pm
Ehhh, I wouldn't say choose... I mean, you could get out, but that's like saying "You could assassinate the glorious leader". It's really risky and dangerous.
That hasn't stopped the thousands who have defected since 1990. Granted, some people just don't have it in them to do it - but people, young people, people who have the ability to escape were actually choosing to stay and die in the famine or serve in the army out of loyalty to the DPRK and the dear leader.
Post by: Sir Finkus on March 14, 2013, 12:43:11 pm
You chaps shouldn't underestimate the loyalty of many North Koreans to the regime. Don't just expect mass surrender, these people choose to live in a country that is irrational. They live irrational lives. I'm foreseeing the conclusion of this as being something more in line with Imperial Japan rather than the North Korean forces rolling over on their arses and dying.You're right, but for the wrong reasons.
I doubt very many North Koreans would choose to live in North Korea if they had the choice and they knew what the rest of the world was like.
The reason people will resist is because they've been taught to hate hate the US and the west in general for their entire lives. In the event of a war, the propaganda machine will go into full force. The country will be portrayed as valiantly resisting imperialist aggression and subjugation. I'd even expect batshit false-flag operations like poisoning food aid drops.
Post by: Sheb on March 14, 2013, 12:43:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 12:48:22 pm
Yeah, or because escaping is hard. If you don't happen to live there, even getting anywhere close to the border is hard.
But thousands have still done it. It is doable, very difficult but it can be done. Some people (although they most likely live near the border) actually go to work in China and live in North Korea to support their families.
You're right, but for the wrong reasons.
I doubt very many North Koreans would choose to live in North Korea if they had the choice and they knew what the rest of the world was like.
The reason people will resist is because they've been taught to hate hate the US and the west in general for their entire lives. In the event of a war, the propaganda machine will go into full force. The country will be portrayed as valiantly resisting imperialist aggression and subjugation. I'd even expect batshit false-flag operations like poisoning food aid drops.
Those are actually the same reasons I was thinking of. I shouldn't have narrowed it all down to "being irrational" and "living in an irrational place", but I was trying to get at the batshit craziness of the DPRK that means expecting things like people just surrendering en masse is foolish.
Post by: Sir Finkus on March 14, 2013, 12:48:48 pm
Yeah, or because escaping is hard. If you don't happen to live there, even getting anywhere close to the border is hard.Not to mention your entire family will be sent to a labor camp, or executed if they're lucky.
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 12:52:51 pm
Not to mention your entire family will be sent to a labor camp, or executed if they're lucky.
And yet thousands still do it. Since 2006, well over 2000 refugees were escaping (i.e. complete defection, not just heading across the border to find work for your family) every year. In 2012 that dropped to 1,500-odd but that's in a time when everything is on high alert and national unity is raised. Remember folks, that's just referring to the ones that actually made it "home and dry" to South Korea. God knows how many escape each year and fail or end up in China or Thailand or wherever. There is also a far greater awareness of the outside world than many people seem to think. North Koreans were getting Chinese TV illegally back in the early 90s, so people have been aware of things (all the cars, all the shops, well fed people etc) for roughly 20 years.
According to one particular grassroots organization in the USA, there's around 300,000 North Korean refugees in China as we speak.
Of course, sometimes we need to step back and consider the horror of what we're actually discussing. Or at least I need to do that because I just stop noticing it. Imagine people finding ways to bribe guards with food or sex or drink or money all the way up to the border, then having to evade snipers (if not bribed) as you cross through an icy river to enter a country where, if you are a woman, you are going to (most certainly) be sold as a sex slave or if you are a man or woman with husband, live in fear until you are caught or make the titanic journey to Thailand or Mongolia to escape completely. As all this is going on your family has probably been imprisoned for life. When people go through all that just to escape it shows you how terrible that place is.
Post by: Sheb on March 14, 2013, 01:00:09 pm
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 01:03:11 pm
Sure, but you can hardly said the one that stayed "choose" to stay. Give them an opportunity to go that doesn' tinvolve risking their and their families' live, and they'll go.
I still maintain hundreds of thousands of North Koreans (I'm going on gut feeling now and theory, nothing official) choose to stay in the DPRK out of loyalty to the dear leader/supreme leader/whatever, loyalty to the DPRK and the fact that it is their home, come rain or shine.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 14, 2013, 01:06:53 pm
Anyways. NK 'artillery' [the ones that aren't self propelled since they can't afford to fuel self-propelled artillery] is a joke and even if their cute Howitzers work, their positions are all known, thoroughly mapped out [Yes, the military know how maps work too!], recognized. The US military doesn't happen to be the most powerful just in title, they know how to plan a war that's been asking to happen for 50 years. NK is not the underdog people think it is.
It's a desperate, poor, starving country with a dictator who uses death camps to keep people from openly killing his pathetic soldiers. A real engagement with NK would end in a matter of days with Jung-Un being hung by his own people as soon as we shell the shit out of every piece of military equipment they've desperately clinged onto since the Cold War. Sorry. The people there are trapped and languish in desire for a real Korea. Don't doubt that.
Post by: Owlbread on March 14, 2013, 01:10:58 pm
Okay Owl, we get it, victims of a dictator are there on their own will. Noone who wants to leave could possibly still be there. Settled that, you expert, you.
Anyways. NK 'artillery' [the ones that aren't self propelled since they can't afford to fuel self-propelled artillery] is a joke and even if their cute Howitzers work, their positions are all known, ampped out, recognized. The US military doesn't happen to be the most powerful just in title, they know how to plan a war that's been asking to happen for 50 years. NK is not the underdog people think it is.
It's a desperate, poor, starving country with a dictator who uses death camps to keep people from openly killing his pathetic soldiers. A real engagement with NK would end in a matter of days with Jung-Un being hung by his own people as soon as we shell the shit out of every piece of military equipment they've desperately clinged onto since the Cold War. Sorry. The people there are trapped and languish in desire for real a real Korea. Don't doubt that.
Hey hey that's not fair, I didn't say that nobody who wants to leave could possibly still be there. I said that hundreds of thousands (a number I have pulled out of my ass but it feels right considering the population of the DPRK - hell it could even be more) decide to stay there because they want to. They would probably go on holiday or immigrate if you gave them the choice but during an invasion they wouldn't exactly lay down their arms at the sight of someone they've been told to hate every day of their lives since they were born. People are trapped there but I wouldn't throw myself into hyperbole by generalising all North Koreans as oppressed, trapped souls that only want a free, unified Korea. There's people there who most certainly do not ascribe to that view, and I reckon there's enough of them to destroy the image of North Koreans just dropping their guns or heading straight for Kim Jong-un, pitchfork in hand. Granted - I'm willing to be proved wrong on this. I even want to be proved wrong - do you think I want all those people to die in an inevitable guerilla war?
Indeed, consider the surprising number of instances where North Koreans leave the country regularly. Examples of this include North Korean logging camps in Russia and also universities in Pakistan. Security around these areas is looser than you would think but people still go back home and have careers and lives in the DPRK.
You also talk about the "underdog" thing - all I'm saying is the North Koreans would put up a tough fight. Tougher than the Iraqis did back in 2003 anyway. The way people were talking about it seemed as if the army would just keel over and die - that's a dangerous idea. You can bet the US and South Korean armed forces planning this shindig wouldn't be relying on that as much as we seem to be.
What I would suggest however is forming a (wait for it) Democratic Socialist People's Army well before any kind of invasion. I think that the hardliners would put up less of a fight if they could see their own countrymen fighting for a democratic North Korea. The power to change North Korea should be passed to the people of North Korea as soon as possible.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on March 14, 2013, 03:48:00 pm
juche is all about hereditarity, people get sent to concentration camps for being closely related to people who committed political crimes, the country is divided into hereditary castes based on their ancestors' condition in the beginning of the revolution. anyone who is loyal to the regime accepts as a dogma that the supreme leader of the country must be a descendant of the great leader, the eternal president. a system where they get to choose their leaders is out of the question, besides, democracy is what they already have right now...
Post by: alexandertnt on March 14, 2013, 09:33:29 pm
I would also not think that a war against North Korea would be a curb stomp battle. Even if they would almost certainly lose a war, they could probably put up quite a fight.
I would consider those who want to leave the country, but choose not to out of danger, not to be choosing "to stay in the country". They have chosen not to risk their lives and an undesired consequence of that would be remaining in the country - It was a result of a choice not the choice itself.
There is probably a considerable ammount of people who want to both stay (for patriotism, because the rest of the world is precieved as worse etc) and want to leave (given the number of people who attempt escape, there must be a non-insignificant number of people who believe the outside world is better, and thus dont believe the proaganda.)
Quote
Indeed, consider the surprising number of instances where North Koreans leave the country regularly
I am not sure about logging camps, but the ones that go to universities are likely part of some relatively powerful/wealthy family and their living conditions in NK for them are probably not that bad.
Post by: Descan on March 14, 2013, 10:08:57 pm
It kind of blew my mind.
Post by: Nilik on March 14, 2013, 10:53:54 pm
you know what dprk stands for right?
juche is all about hereditarity, people get sent to concentration camps for being closely related to people who committed political crimes, the country is divided into hereditary castes based on their ancestors' condition in the beginning of the revolution. anyone who is loyal to the regime accepts as a dogma that the supreme leader of the country must be a descendant of the great leader, the eternal president. a system where they get to choose their leaders is out of the question, besides, democracy is what they already have right now...
Exactly, everybody can vote, but obviously everyone would vote for Dear Leader, so they don't even have to bother with elections. As democracies go, its remarkably efficient.
Post by: Strife26 on March 15, 2013, 12:33:52 am
Okay Owl, we get it, victims of a dictator are there on their own will. Noone who wants to leave could possibly still be there. Settled that, you expert, you.
Anyways. NK 'artillery' [the ones that aren't self propelled since they can't afford to fuel self-propelled artillery] is a joke and even if their cute Howitzers work, their positions are all known, thoroughly mapped out [Yes, the military know how maps work too!], recognized. The US military doesn't happen to be the most powerful just in title, they know how to plan a war that's been asking to happen for 50 years. NK is not the underdog people think it is.
It's a desperate, poor, starving country with a dictator who uses death camps to keep people from openly killing his pathetic soldiers. A real engagement with NK would end in a matter of days with Jung-Un being hung by his own people as soon as we shell the shit out of every piece of military equipment they've desperately clinged onto since the Cold War. Sorry. The people there are trapped and languish in desire for a real Korea. Don't doubt that.
Yep. Dictatorships will fall apart at the first tiniest poke by a western country, nation building is easy, and all the artillery is mapped out and ready to be destroyed at the snap of General MacArthur's fingers. Got that settled, you expert, you.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 15, 2013, 04:02:47 am
Post by: Strife26 on March 15, 2013, 04:24:31 am
Post by: alexandertnt on March 15, 2013, 04:37:09 am
Especially considering NK have nukes. It means attacking them could cause quite alot of grief.
Post by: Max White on March 15, 2013, 04:40:36 am
Last I heard weight is a factor in missile design.
Post by: DJ on March 15, 2013, 04:46:06 am
Post by: Strife26 on March 15, 2013, 04:55:41 am
You don't have to launch nukes, you can also have infiltrators deploy them. Best Korea has an extensive spy network in Inferior Korea, right?
Maybe? They traditionally like the infiltrator route, as their "We have a billion people in our special forces" and repeated tunneling attempts prove.
Do not underestimate or trivialise the ammount of damage NK could do. War is much more complicated then who has the most soldiers/best technology.
Especially considering NK have nukes. It means attacking them could cause quite alot of grief.
I mean, don't misunderstand me, we'll kick their ass. ROK could kick their ass by themselves. However, it'd still be the bloodiest thing we've seen for many years. Insurgencies don't compare much to force on force warfare, you know?
Post by: alexandertnt on March 15, 2013, 06:01:48 am
Does nuclear technology = nuclear armament?
Last I heard weight is a factor in missile design.
It would be very difficult to get a nuke to the US, but South Korea may be possible. All they would need is to get one through and it could cause alot of grief.
Not to forget to invade the country you would have to occupy it, so maby they could just wait for you to come to them...
I mean, don't misunderstand me, we'll kick their ass. ROK could kick their ass by themselves. However, it'd still be the bloodiest thing we've seen for many years. Insurgencies don't compare much to force on force warfare, you know?
Oh I agree. But yeah, much blood would likely be spilt, making invading NK an undesirable option.
Post by: olemars on March 15, 2013, 07:09:42 am
Additional source (translated article from South Korean newspaper): http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2968561 (http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2968561)
Quote
Created in 2009, the Reconnaissance General Bureau is considered one of the key pillars of support for the Kim Jong-un regime. It was created by merging intelligence departments of the Workers’ Party and the South Korea operations organs under the Ministry of the People’s Armed Forces.
According to the source, officials originally from the operations department and the external liaison department of the Workers’ Party fought over leadership of the Reconnaissance General Bureau and a gun battle broke out.
After he took responsibility for the incident, Kim Yong-chol suffered a demotion to three-star general and a second demotion after Kim Jong-un was faced with an assassination attempt in Pyongyang, the source said. “The people who were purged after the gunfight could be related to the assassination attempt,” he said
Post by: Max White on March 15, 2013, 07:16:44 am
It would be very difficult to get a nuke to the US, but South Korea may be possible. All they would need is to get one through and it could cause alot of grief.Nuking SK has all the tactical finesse of setting your neighbors house on fire. When you find yourself dealing with the fallout too, it is less worth it. The point of war is to achieve some sort of next profit, not just kill a lot of people. When your plan is using mutually assured destruction as an offensive tactic? Well that right there is stupid.
This is assuming that NK acts in any sort of rational way, so yea, guess you're right.
Post by: Sheb on March 15, 2013, 07:28:25 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 15, 2013, 07:45:33 am
The DPRK accuses the South and the United States of launching cyberattacks that shut down its websites.
I still think the DPRK's leadership is pushing in this way because it's the only thing they can do when they're inundated with sanctions, other than give up their nuclear program (which they will not do). If they push everyone to the brink of war, perhaps they hope they can lift some of the sanctions. It is also a way to unite the military and the people when we know there are disgruntled elements of both groups, most importantly the military as the assassination attempt showed.
Post by: Strife26 on March 15, 2013, 09:22:51 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/world/asia/north-korea-sees-south-us-behind-cyberstrikes.html?_r=0Fixed that for you.
The DPRK accuses the South and the United States of launching cyberattacks that shut down its websites.
I still think the DPRK's leadership is pushing in this way because it's the only thing they can do when they're inundated with sanctions, other than give up their nuclear program (which they will not do). If they push everyone to the brink of war, perhaps they hope they can lift some of the sanctions. It is also a way to unite the military and the people when we know there are disgruntled elements of both groups, most importantly the military as the assassination attempt showed.
Yeah, that and to continually foster the sense of crisis back home. I mean, if Eurasia is going to invade at any moment, what kind of citizen will rebel?
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on March 15, 2013, 09:37:34 am
Fixed that for you.what did you fix?
Post by: MaximumZero on March 15, 2013, 09:55:38 am
Websites to website.Fixed that for you.what did you fix?
Post by: misko27 on March 21, 2013, 07:35:06 pm
It seems almost certain to be de north.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 22, 2013, 08:28:51 am
1. Raise the ante by scrapping the ceasefire treaties (check)
2. Convince the US to enter peace treaty negotiations.
3. Some of the embargos and sanctions are lifted.
4. Export to US
5. Literally profit.
Beijing doesn't have much sway with NK anymore. They got fed up of lapping up the scraps Beijing gave them.
Also, if the US doesn't enter peace negotiations, they sell nukes to Iran and profit anyways. Win-win.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 22, 2013, 09:12:05 am
Post by: PanH on March 22, 2013, 09:25:32 am
Either way, North Korea is powerless. I have defeated their only potato.And thus starved thousands of innnocent people. Are you proud of what you've done ?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2013, 10:17:52 am
Also, if the US doesn't enter peace negotiations, they sell nukes to Iran and profit anyways. Win-win.And how exactly do you expect them to ship nukes to Iran? China isn't going to help that and South Korea certainly isn't. If they try to send one themselves it'll run straight into the Seventh Fleet and be captured.
Post by: DJ on March 22, 2013, 10:58:20 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 22, 2013, 11:03:37 am
Quote
Also, if the US doesn't enter peace negotiations, they sell nukes to Iran and profit anyways. Win-win.
Given that the US has proven that the only way to have geopolitical sway is to have nukes. It really does feel like a win-win for them.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2013, 11:04:04 am
They could use their ICBMs, and simply not prime the bombs.As I recall, their missiles do not qualify as ICBMs. Also, if they launch it is war, primed or not.
Post by: Bauglir on March 22, 2013, 11:10:22 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 22, 2013, 11:12:24 am
War between North Korea and Iran? I'm on board, mostly because I want to see how they'd actually go about the business of physically conducting it.
Iran would likely win.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2013, 11:12:41 am
War between North Korea and Iran? I'm on board, mostly because I want to see how they'd actually go about the business of physically conducting it.No, war between North Korea and the US. If any of their missiles are nuclear-armed and leave North Korea in any direction, it is pretty much certain to result in war. At the very least it will be shot down, but I don't think it'll stop there.
Post by: freeformschooler on March 22, 2013, 11:17:21 am
War between North Korea and Iran? I'm on board, mostly because I want to see how they'd actually go about the business of physically conducting it.No, war between North Korea and the US. If any of their missiles are nuclear-armed and leave North Korea in any direction, it is pretty much certain to result in war. At the very least it will be shot down, but I don't think it'll stop there.
Shot down how? AFAIK the US doesn't have a functioning missile defense system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_national_missile_defense) for combating ICBMs yet. Unless I'm just totally reading that article wrong.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2013, 11:19:51 am
Or at least, they'll try to shoot it down. Missile defense systems are hard. I doubt they'd do better than a 75% interception rate. (Note: Not counting any Korean rockets that explode or their own, or a similair mechanical failure that can not be attributed to the defense system)War between North Korea and Iran? I'm on board, mostly because I want to see how they'd actually go about the business of physically conducting it.No, war between North Korea and the US. If any of their missiles are nuclear-armed and leave North Korea in any direction, it is pretty much certain to result in war. At the very least it will be shot down, but I don't think it'll stop there.
They got an entire fleet with missile interception weaponry lying around Korea.War between North Korea and Iran? I'm on board, mostly because I want to see how they'd actually go about the business of physically conducting it.No, war between North Korea and the US. If any of their missiles are nuclear-armed and leave North Korea in any direction, it is pretty much certain to result in war. At the very least it will be shot down, but I don't think it'll stop there.
Shot down how? AFAIK the US doesn't have a functioning missile defense system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_national_missile_defense) for combating ICBMs yet. Unless I'm just totally reading that article wrong.
In specific, the Aegis and Patriot missile defense systems. The system doesn't has a complete coverage, but they can open point blank fire on any Korean rocket.
Post by: misko27 on March 22, 2013, 12:03:03 pm
Here's a likely course for NK to pursue:I sorta think you're wrong on this one.Mostly because they don't simply give scraps, they literally run their entire economy. it more like their acting out against them, trying to avoid being a new province. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS (http://)
1. Raise the ante by scrapping the ceasefire treaties (check)
2. Convince the US to enter peace treaty negotiations.
3. Some of the embargos and sanctions are lifted.
4. Export to US
5. Literally profit.
Beijing doesn't have much sway with NK anymore. They got fed up of lapping up the scraps Beijing gave them.
And they are failing.
Post by: RedKing on March 22, 2013, 02:05:43 pm
Here's a likely course for NK to pursue:I sorta think you're wrong on this one.Mostly because they don't simply give scraps, they literally run their entire economy. it more like their acting out against them, trying to avoid being a new province. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS (http://)
1. Raise the ante by scrapping the ceasefire treaties (check)
2. Convince the US to enter peace treaty negotiations.
3. Some of the embargos and sanctions are lifted.
4. Export to US
5. Literally profit.
Beijing doesn't have much sway with NK anymore. They got fed up of lapping up the scraps Beijing gave them.
And they are failing.
I'm not sure whether China would want to add the province of Beihan or not. It's kind of like West Germany reintegrating East Germany -- the cost outweighs the benefits for decades.
Post by: Aseaheru on March 22, 2013, 02:17:16 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2013, 02:21:05 pm
Just a random bit of me going and randomly saying shit:NK said that when they cancelled it some time ago.I hope no one else has said that.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on March 22, 2013, 02:52:22 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 22, 2013, 05:05:40 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2013, 05:10:04 pm
Well given they have at most ten, I doubt the interceptors would have too much trouble.Nuclear missiles are ballistic projectiles. Also quite fast. It doesn't matter how much missiles the US has aimed there, they only have one shot* for each nuke before it's boosting stage cuts out and the missiles goes ballistical. Even if they are not outside of the missiles range by that point, they suddenly become much harder to track and intercept.
*Maybe 2-3 but certainly not much more. Boosting usually takes little under a minute, afterall.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 22, 2013, 11:21:13 pm
That's what I said—Beijing only gives NK just enough to not starve. Nothing more.Here's a likely course for NK to pursue:I sorta think you're wrong on this one.Mostly because they don't simply give scraps, they literally run their entire economy. it more like their acting out against them, trying to avoid being a new province. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS (http://)
1. Raise the ante by scrapping the ceasefire treaties (check)
2. Convince the US to enter peace treaty negotiations.
3. Some of the embargos and sanctions are lifted.
4. Export to US
5. Literally profit.
Beijing doesn't have much sway with NK anymore. They got fed up of lapping up the scraps Beijing gave them.
And they are failing.
Also, NK realized that China wants very much to fleece NK for what it has. It had tension over a couple of business projects recently iirc.
Post by: lordcooper on March 22, 2013, 11:25:00 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2013, 11:28:05 pm
That's what I said—Beijing only gives NK just enough to notYou wish I was making that up.starvepublicly cannibalize the ones who die of starvation. Nothing more.
NK has stuff now?No. They don't even have relative stuff. Their absolute stuff is not increasing at all.
Post by: Another on March 22, 2013, 11:28:36 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on March 22, 2013, 11:37:47 pm
NK has stuff now?
China helped NK develop a mine in exchange for a substantial share in the metal, I think. And NK complained of China raising the amount of ore China got...
Also, NK has a port in development that China is financing for direct land->sea access to the Pacific, instead of thru the Yellow Sea.
Post by: freeformschooler on March 22, 2013, 11:40:23 pm
Take your stealing elsewhere guys, you're supporting the DPRK :P
Post by: Sirus on March 23, 2013, 01:03:49 am
NK has the Pirate Bay now!That was fake, IIRC.
Take your stealing elsewhere guys, you're supporting the DPRK :P
Post by: Owlbread on March 23, 2013, 09:25:45 am
Post by: MaximumZero on March 23, 2013, 03:46:57 pm
Post by: Morrigi on March 23, 2013, 07:54:02 pm
Post by: lordcooper on March 23, 2013, 08:11:24 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 23, 2013, 08:18:41 pm
Post by: alexandertnt on March 23, 2013, 08:34:22 pm
North Korea can go fuck itself while we focus on real problems like the economy and adhering to the U.S. Constitution.
Exactly. Becase an insane, paranoid coutry developing nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them long distances is not a real problem at all.
Post by: Strife26 on March 23, 2013, 11:41:07 pm
North Korea can go fuck itself while we focus on real problems like the economy and adhering to the U.S. Constitution.
Exactly. Becase an insane, paranoid coutry developing nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them long distances is not a real problem at all.
And there's no moral imperative to continue helping South Korea, either.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 24, 2013, 12:12:15 am
Nor any legal imperative, and certainly no treaties approved by the United States Senate.North Korea can go fuck itself while we focus on real problems like the economy and adhering to the U.S. Constitution.
Exactly. Becase an insane, paranoid coutry developing nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them long distances is not a real problem at all.
And there's no moral imperative to continue helping South Korea, either.
Post by: Owlbread on March 24, 2013, 07:19:20 am
"Economy jobs national security growth family values god." -Every modern speech in America.
You forgot "Middle class". That's used to the same effect as the words "Working class" once did.
Exactly. Becase an insane, paranoid coutry developing nuclear weapons and the technology to deliver them long distances is not a real problem at all.
I don't mean to be a fuddy-duddy but I'm actually more concerned about the soul-destroying human rights abuses in that hellhole of a country than the fact that they may or may not have nuclear capabilities.
I know this is probably going to derail us somewhat, but that same line of thinking leads to people thanking American and British soldiers for fighting in Afghanistan and "defending our country" when they're mostly protecting Afghan civilians, as they should be.
Sorry for the double post.
Post by: Owlbread on March 24, 2013, 07:20:40 am
Post by: alexandertnt on March 24, 2013, 08:19:16 am
I don't mean to be a fuddy-duddy but I'm actually more concerned about the soul-destroying human rights abuses in that hellhole of a country than the fact that they may or may not have nuclear capabilities.
I know this is probably going to derail us somewhat, but that same line of thinking leads to people thanking American and British soldiers for fighting in Afghanistan and "defending our country" when they're mostly protecting Afghan civilians, as they should be.
[/quote]
The reason I gave was a reason that America needs to concern itself with North Korea. The sort of reason even a crazy ultra-isolationist would have to agree is a probem that cannot be ignored.
So yeah, I am also concerned for the human rights of North Korea and do not want that to be taken in such a way that makes me sound like I am only concerned with myself/my own country. It was only made to sound like that for sake of argument.
Post by: Lagslayer on March 24, 2013, 08:24:19 am
Whatever was in that link, I cannot see. Every time I try to open it, it crashes forefox. All the tabs, all the windows, completely locked.Here's a likely course for NK to pursue:I sorta think you're wrong on this one.Mostly because they don't simply give scraps, they literally run their entire economy. it more like their acting out against them, trying to avoid being a new province. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS (http://)
1. Raise the ante by scrapping the ceasefire treaties (check)
2. Convince the US to enter peace treaty negotiations.
3. Some of the embargos and sanctions are lifted.
4. Export to US
5. Literally profit.
Beijing doesn't have much sway with NK anymore. They got fed up of lapping up the scraps Beijing gave them.
And they are failing.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 24, 2013, 08:25:52 am
Post by: Lagslayer on March 24, 2013, 08:59:11 am
Does this work? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS)Yes. TY.
Post by: mainiac on March 24, 2013, 09:03:07 am
Post by: Lagslayer on March 24, 2013, 09:14:12 am
Post by: mainiac on March 24, 2013, 09:39:08 am
Post by: Zrk2 on March 24, 2013, 12:13:10 pm
Post by: mainiac on March 24, 2013, 12:36:15 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on March 24, 2013, 12:43:53 pm
Post by: Owlbread on March 24, 2013, 01:32:14 pm
Well yeah but so do monkeys at a keyboard and we don't read them on the off chance something smart comes from that.
No matter how bad newspapers are don't be so hyperbolic as to compare them to monkeys at a keyboard. I'm saying that and I have a lot of bones to pick with newspapers.
Post by: mainiac on March 24, 2013, 01:38:18 pm
Post by: lordcooper on March 24, 2013, 03:42:32 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on March 24, 2013, 04:16:15 pm
To put it bluntly (and a little arrogantly), sometimes it is valuable to know what the mentally undeveloped masses are reading and taking as fact.+1
Post by: MaximumZero on March 24, 2013, 04:20:25 pm
I'm not saying that newspapers are like monkeys at a keyboard, I'm saying that just saying something is a potential source of information doesn't mean it's a worthwhile use of time. Literally everything is a potential source of information but we shouldn't waste our time with bad sources like the Washington Times.That's kind of sweeping under the rug new, unestablished writers who haven't moved on yet, or writers with an "individual" point of view that didn't catch on elsewhere. Dismissing the information because of its source without reading it is kind of ignorant.
Post by: mainiac on March 24, 2013, 05:41:35 pm
That's kind of sweeping under the rug new, unestablished writers who haven't moved on yet, or writers with an "individual" point of view that didn't catch on elsewhere. Dismissing the information because of its source without reading it is kind of ignorant.
If not reading a paper is "dismissing the information" then why might I ask, are you dismissing the Des Moines Register, the Adventist Today, the Star Democrat and every other paper on earth that you don't read? In a perfect world we'd have time to read everything under the sun but clearly we don't live in such a world.
I'm not saying that the Washington Times is incapable of getting stuff right. I'm just saying they aren't a good newspaper and you should go for something less shody like maybe the Washington Post.
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 02:38:04 am
Post by: mainiac on March 25, 2013, 02:56:57 am
There is a logical leap between "it's possible that this paper has value" and "this paper has value".
Post by: Sheb on March 25, 2013, 04:38:56 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 07:44:40 am
Post by: MaximumZero on March 25, 2013, 09:40:28 am
If not reading a paper is "dismissing the information" then why might I ask, are you dismissing the Des Moines Register, the Adventist Today, the Star Democrat and every other paper on earth that you don't read? In a perfect world we'd have time to read everything under the sun but clearly we don't live in such a world.I don't read a lot of newspapers because they're not available in my area. I don't read the Washington Post or the Washington Times because I'm in Michigan. When I read newspapers, I usually read the Detroit Free Press, the New York Times, and the USA Today. That's what's available here. There are some niche papers available, but I don't usually fall into their readership demographic. Sometimes the Battle Creek Enquirer has a good story in it, and I'll read that, even though they don't usually run terribly good stories because they have a hard time affording any writers who are anything more than "aspiring".
I'm not saying that the Washington Times is incapable of getting stuff right.
I'm just saying they aren't a good newspaper and you should go for something less shody like maybe the Washington Post.This is different than just not reading something. This is a) not reading it, b) influencing others to read it, and c) discrediting anything that could possibly have been in that paper. This here is called "being a snob". Please don't do that, no one benefits from it.
Post by: RedKing on March 25, 2013, 10:29:01 am
Rule of thumb with the two big East Coast bellweathers:
New York
Times: Mostly reliable.
Post: Birdcage liner
Washington
Times: Birdcage liner
Post: Mostly reliable.
Post by: mainiac on March 25, 2013, 10:33:59 am
This is different than just not reading something. This is a) not reading it, b) influencing others to read it, and c) discrediting anything that could possibly have been in that paper. This here is called "being a snob". Please don't do that, no one benefits from it.
I'm telling her not to read it because it's a bad source of information and potentially misleading. If that makes me a snob then you have twisted the word snob to lose it's original meaning and turned it into a compliment.
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 10:40:04 am
In any case, I think this is an enormous overreaction when North Korea is currently analysing the American/South Korean plans for retaliation to any potential "Yeongpyong" redux. I don't really like making comments like this, but I think that's much more important than if we think X newspaper is shite and Y newspaper isn't.
Post by: mainiac on March 25, 2013, 10:45:17 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 11:08:58 am
Where is Aqizzer and his cat picture when we need him.
Re-railing is possible with will power.
Yes, very interesting article here about North Korea's foreign-born "Special Delegate" of the DPRK's "Committee for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries".
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0325/North-Korea-s-public-relations-man-is-a-Spaniard-with-a-tough-job
Post by: RedKing on March 25, 2013, 11:23:10 am
Where is Aqizzer and his cat picture when we need him.Aqizzar's was the Hound from The Fox and the Hound. I presume you may have been referring to this, from my ill-fated politics thread:
(http://tnypic.net/images/h7qtj_thumb.jpg)
Post by: mainiac on March 25, 2013, 11:28:39 am
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0325/North-Korea-s-public-relations-man-is-a-Spaniard-with-a-tough-job
Christian Science moniter? Really?
I jest, I jest
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 11:31:30 am
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0325/North-Korea-s-public-relations-man-is-a-Spaniard-with-a-tough-job
Christian Science moniter? Really?
I jest, I jest
I happened across it on my google travels.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 25, 2013, 11:32:40 am
Post by: misko27 on March 25, 2013, 11:56:19 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 25, 2013, 11:59:49 am
Post by: RedKing on March 25, 2013, 12:14:53 pm
Dear Leader Kim Jong Il....is still dead.
(with apologies to Chevy Chase)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 25, 2013, 01:00:28 pm
Christian Science Monitor is actually a decent publication that isn't related to the religion of its founders. And you know that if I'm saying this it is probably true.http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0325/North-Korea-s-public-relations-man-is-a-Spaniard-with-a-tough-job
Christian Science moniter? Really?
I jest, I jest
Post by: RedKing on March 25, 2013, 01:29:14 pm
I think mainiac is aware that CSM is a pretty solid publication (hence the "I jest"). At least I hope he is. CSM is very well regarded in their coverage of foreign affairs.Christian Science Monitor is actually a decent publication that isn't related to the religion of its founders. And you know that if I'm saying this it is probably true.http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0325/North-Korea-s-public-relations-man-is-a-Spaniard-with-a-tough-job
Christian Science moniter? Really?
I jest, I jest
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 25, 2013, 01:35:07 pm
I think mainiac is aware that CSM is a pretty solid publication (hence the "I jest"). At least I hope he is. CSM is very well regarded in their coverage of foreign affairs.Waiiiiiiiittt a minute. CSM. Christian Science Monitor.....or.....Chaos Space Marines?
How could we have been so blind!?
Post by: RedKing on March 25, 2013, 01:58:56 pm
Don't be silly. Run along, citizen. Nothing to Tzeentch here.I think mainiac is aware that CSM is a pretty solid publication (hence the "I jest"). At least I hope he is. CSM is very well regarded in their coverage of foreign affairs.Waiiiiiiiittt a minute. CSM. Christian Science Monitor.....or.....Chaos Space Marines?
How could we have been so blind!?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 25, 2013, 02:03:50 pm
And now on to our next story, where we join Senior Correspondent Kharn the Betrayer on the DMZ. Kharn?Don't be silly. Run along, citizen. Nothing to Tzeentch here.I think mainiac is aware that CSM is a pretty solid publication (hence the "I jest"). At least I hope he is. CSM is very well regarded in their coverage of foreign affairs.Waiiiiiiiittt a minute. CSM. Christian Science Monitor.....or.....Chaos Space Marines?
How could we have been so blind!?
"THIS PLACE IS SO FUCKING BORING, NOBODY IS FIGHTING OR ANYTHING EVEN THOUGH THEY REALLY WANT TO, WHAT IS THIS ORDERLY BULLSHIT, KILL EACH OTHER ALREADY, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO-"
-Oookkaaay, Kharn is clearly in a bad mood today, so let's move on.
Post by: jimboo on March 26, 2013, 06:56:02 am
Where is Aqizzer and his cat picture when we need him.Aqizzar's was the Hound from The Fox and the Hound. I presume you may have been referring to this, from my ill-fated politics thread:
(http://tnypic.net/images/h7qtj_thumb.jpg)
What, somebody has a better cat avatar than me? Shiite and Sunni ... Nom's chain-mail kitty in full size has the tag "GOD WILLS IT" which I photoshopped to "Armok wills it" for DF but it gets clipped as a thumbnail.
Would you share the link for the full resolution Hell No Kitty? Pretty please?
Post by: jimboo on March 26, 2013, 07:53:18 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 26, 2013, 12:28:07 pm
Can North Korea even reach Guam?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 26, 2013, 12:37:39 pm
Um, guys? Check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10440)
Can North Korea even reach Guam?
Maybe. If their rocket doesn't explode shortly after liftoff...
Post by: Flying Dice on March 26, 2013, 12:53:05 pm
Quote
be mindful that everything will be reduced to ashes and flames the moment the first attack is unleashed
you have no chance to survive make your time
I think I figured it out. This is how the world ends.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 26, 2013, 01:02:02 pm
Post by: tahujdt on March 26, 2013, 01:02:44 pm
1) If the US does not do something about it (besides sanctions, UN sanctions do not really have an effect), then people know that we are too wishy-washy to actually deal with a threat.
2) NK may very well sell nuclear stuff to other countries, like Iran, or some other sleazebag little country.
3)Letting crazy people have weapons of mass destruction is generally a bad idea.
4) NK may start extorting smaller countries, giving them more resources.
5) NK would simply love to attack SK, and now they have a weapon to threaten their neighbors.
There is a South Korean exchange student at my school, so this issue is often discussed in the lunchroom. We can defend ourselves against NKorean missiles just fine, but we have a responsability to protect other countries.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 26, 2013, 01:11:55 pm
We'd be able to crush them, yes, but at a huge cost to South Korea. I really don't think the US has any business invading North Korea unless South Korea decides that it's the best thing to do and asks us to help.
Post by: Owlbread on March 26, 2013, 01:16:27 pm
That still ignores the whole 'North Korea shells Seoul to hell within the first few hours of the war starting.
We'd be able to crush them, yes, but at a huge cost to South Korea. I really don't think the US has any business invading North Korea unless South Korea decides that it's the best thing to do and asks us to help.
The North Koreans should also have the right of self determination in that they should determine whether they are annexed by the South, join a confederation or whatever.
Post by: Tellemurius on March 26, 2013, 01:19:30 pm
either side wants to absorb the other but far as i can see NK haven't been taking care of its own citizens very well and theres no argument saying otherwise.That still ignores the whole 'North Korea shells Seoul to hell within the first few hours of the war starting.
We'd be able to crush them, yes, but at a huge cost to South Korea. I really don't think the US has any business invading North Korea unless South Korea decides that it's the best thing to do and asks us to help.
The North Koreans should also have the right of self determination in that they should determine whether they are annexed by the South, join a confederation or whatever.
Post by: Tellemurius on March 26, 2013, 01:20:41 pm
either side wants to absorb the other but far as i can see NK haven't been taking care of its own citizens very well and theres no argument saying otherwise.That still ignores the whole 'North Korea shells Seoul to hell within the first few hours of the war starting.
We'd be able to crush them, yes, but at a huge cost to South Korea. I really don't think the US has any business invading North Korea unless South Korea decides that it's the best thing to do and asks us to help.
The North Koreans should also have the right of self determination in that they should determine whether they are annexed by the South, join a confederation or whatever.
Post by: RedKing on March 26, 2013, 01:21:29 pm
I think that a conventional strike on NK would be good from a worldwide standpoint. Here I mean an invasion, or at least some surgical strikes on factories and siloes. My points:
1) If the US does not do something about it (besides sanctions, UN sanctions do not really have an effect), then people know that we are too wishy-washy to actually deal with a threat.
2) NK may very well sell nuclear stuff to other countries, like Iran, or some other sleazebag little country.
3)Letting crazy people have weapons of mass destruction is generally a bad idea.
4) NK may start extorting smaller countries, giving them more resources.
5) NK would simply love to attack SK, and now they have a weapon to threaten their neighbors.
There is a South Korean exchange student at my school, so this issue is often discussed in the lunchroom. We can defend ourselves against NKorean missiles just fine, but we have a responsability to protect other countries.
Gee, I remember a similar logic about how we had a responsibility to invade Iraq for the good of the world. How'd that turn out again? ???
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2013, 01:24:52 pm
2) Somehow I doubt that NK nuclear technology is higher advanced than Iranian. Iran has better facilitiesn, acces to materials and scientists. They're just way more diplomatic. Besides, what's wrong with Iran having Nukes.
3) Agreed. Now how about handing those things over.
4) I highly, highly doubt they'd be able to do this. NK isn't that strong, most of their borders are locked down, and China is neither tiny nor easily threatened.
5) They had those weapons a long time ago. WW2 artillery might not be high tech, but it works.
Oh, and American spear headed attack on North Korea would probably see a retaliation of China. I highly doubt the UN would intervene in such a conflict.
either side wants to absorb the other but far as i can see NK haven't been taking care of its own citizens very well and theres no argument saying otherwise.They don't. Such an influx of hostile. (50 years of propaganda), dirt poor, and untrained employees would crash SK economy. Likewise, SK wealth would put NK social structure under extreme stress.
Post by: Owlbread on March 26, 2013, 01:29:16 pm
Gee, I remember a similar logic about how we had a responsibility to invade Iraq for the good of the world. How'd that turn out again? ???
I'm actually wrestling with that idea. North Korea is such a brutal place that it makes Iraq look like Sweden... when is there ever a just war?
Post by: RedKing on March 26, 2013, 01:36:13 pm
GREAT LEADER
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Foodstuff
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Korean People
By the same token, we heard about how Iraq was such a brutal place that any amount of civilian suffering was a worthy price to pay for freedom. Of course, it's a lot easier to make that judgment call when you're not the one having to pay it.
Gee, I remember a similar logic about how we had a responsibility to invade Iraq for the good of the world. How'd that turn out again? ???
I'm actually wrestling with that idea. North Korea is such a brutal place that it makes Iraq look like Sweden... when is there ever a just war?
We freed the Shi'ites from oppression and gave them the freedom to murder Sunnis and blow up our troops.
We freed the Kurds and gave them the freedom to start stirring up trouble in our erstwhile ally Turkey.
Shit like this has LOTS of unintended consequences, is what I'm saying.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2013, 01:38:56 pm
*Overstatement: They contributed to it.
Post by: PanH on March 26, 2013, 02:02:23 pm
If any intervention must take place, it should be the UN and not the US.
Post by: RedKing on March 26, 2013, 02:08:08 pm
Which is highly unlikely to happen, because it would require an affirmative vote of the Security Council. Russia and/or China are not going to authorize any such intervention so close to their own borders. The only reason that the UN authorized forces in the first Korean War was that the Chinese abstained and the Soviets had boycotted the meeting.
If any intervention must take place, it should be the UN and not the US.
Post by: Sheb on March 26, 2013, 02:18:34 pm
Post by: Descan on March 26, 2013, 02:20:07 pm
Post by: Another on March 26, 2013, 02:29:50 pm
Post by: Big_James_B on March 26, 2013, 02:38:56 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on March 26, 2013, 02:48:32 pm
Post by: PanH on March 26, 2013, 02:50:33 pm
Which is highly unlikely to happen, because it would require an affirmative vote of the Security Council. Russia and/or China are not going to authorize any such intervention so close to their own borders. The only reason that the UN authorized forces in the first Korean War was that the Chinese abstained and the Soviets had boycotted the meeting.China was represented by Taiwan until 1971 (and Soviets boycotted because of that reason).
I think an intervention could happen if it was lead and composed mainly of russians and chinese troops (and not americans).
Post by: Big_James_B on March 26, 2013, 02:51:11 pm
I had previously bought the 1/2/Tactics beforehand. It was more the post-apocalyptic feel of the game that led me to that decision.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 26, 2013, 03:20:14 pm
Yep.
I had previously bought the 1/2/Tactics beforehand. It was more the post-apocalyptic feel of the game that led me to that decision.
Of course, everyone will have to become a marauder. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreCriminalsThanTargets)
Post by: Lich180 on March 26, 2013, 04:13:16 pm
China has told them to back off and not do anything stupid, and China gives NK food/money aid. China stands with SK and U.S. on the whole "don't shoot nukes" idea.
SK has said back off, or else, and I KNOW they mean it. Their military is not something to be trifled with, especially when backed up by the U.S. SK also gives some aid to NK.
The U.S. has said the same as SK, and pledged to assist if SK needs it. The U.S. also is a huge supplier of food and money aid to NK. The people of the U.S., if NK decides to nuke something belonging to the U.S., will DEMAND retribution, and then a huge problem will develop.
Either NK does something stupid, and ends up worse for the wear, or we end up in a bad situation with nukes flying around. Not that I honestly think NK HAS anything that can send a payload anywhere, but they might. They already have the capability to make a nuke, and a missle is either non-existant, or very well hidden by their obfuscating stupidity. (Thanks, TVTropes)
Post by: Owlbread on March 26, 2013, 04:35:50 pm
Post by: Sheb on March 26, 2013, 04:39:10 pm
Post by: Pnx on March 26, 2013, 04:48:27 pm
Post by: Sheb on March 26, 2013, 04:49:49 pm
Post by: Fniff on March 27, 2013, 10:04:38 am
Yep.
I had previously bought the 1/2/Tactics beforehand. It was more the post-apocalyptic feel of the game that led me to that decision.
First things first, China was the one who started the war in that.
Two, Fallout really isn't a very good basis for discussions modern politics. In the events leading up to the atomic war in Fallout, the oil had run out, the European Union and the UN had collapsed in a massive war/scramble for resources, America had become a plague-ridden dictatorship, and even ignoring all that anything past 1945 in the Falloutverse is alternate history entirely. MAD requires that a large group with a lot of allies starts the war and begins a horrific domino effect of allies firing upon the other side's allies until everything is so much radioactive dust. If NK fired upon America, assuming they could even reach them and not just say shell Seoul which would have a more direct effect with less risk, America would fire back along with it's allies... and who exactly would stand with NK?
North Korea isn't going to cause an apocalypse. However, just because they won't bring about the end of civilization doesn't mean they aren't bastards who will end up killing a lot of innocent people if they attempt an attack on South Korea.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 27, 2013, 10:12:22 am
-China invades NK (They really don't want a US controlled nation near their borders, and like stability)
-SK/ Japan/ some other US ally doesn't get the note that China is taking control of the situation, and fire on NK, accidentally hitting China's soldiers
-China returns fire,
-Conflict continues to escalate.
Unlikely, but possible.
Post by: Fniff on March 27, 2013, 10:13:52 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 27, 2013, 10:16:33 am
That seems more like a case of stupidity and miscommunication starting the war rather then NK being the direct menace, but then again stupidity and miscommunication probably started more wars then anything else.Well, yeah. There are few people who deliberatly blow up the world.
The scenario is comparable to the start of the First world war.
Post by: Big_James_B on March 27, 2013, 10:36:35 am
Yep.
I had previously bought the 1/2/Tactics beforehand. It was more the post-apocalyptic feel of the game that led me to that decision.
First things first, China was the one who started the war in that.
Two, Fallout really isn't a very good basis for discussions modern politics. In the events leading up to the atomic war in Fallout, the oil had run out, the European Union and the UN had collapsed in a massive war/scramble for resources, America had become a plague-ridden dictatorship, and even ignoring all that anything past 1945 in the Falloutverse is alternate history entirely. MAD requires that a large group with a lot of allies starts the war and begins a horrific domino effect of allies firing upon the other side's allies until everything is so much radioactive dust. If NK fired upon America, assuming they could even reach them and not just say shell Seoul which would have a more direct effect with less risk, America would fire back along with it's allies... and who exactly would stand with NK?
North Korea isn't going to cause an apocalypse. However, just because they won't bring about the end of civilization doesn't mean they aren't bastards who will end up killing a lot of innocent people if they attempt an attack on South Korea.
I think you mistook my meaning. I used the game and the current news at the time to make a prediction about the future; a prediction that has somehow a few grains of truth within it. Now, I agree that a nuclear war coming from all of this is slim, but as ebbor said with his example - it's unlikely but it is possible.
Post by: RedKing on March 27, 2013, 10:51:29 am
-NK attacks SK/another SK ally.
-China invades NK (They really don't want a US controlled nation near their borders, and like stability)
-SK/ Japan/ some other US ally doesn't get the note that China is taking control of the situation, and fire on NK, accidentally hitting China's soldiers
-China returns fire,
-Conflict continues to escalate.
Unlikely, but possible.
1. I don't think South Korea would be that upset. ROK-PRC relations are actually pretty good.
2. Japan might not like it, but Japan should not be in the area to fire on anything. Venturing out from the Home Islands and being off the Korean coast/in Korean airspace would be seen as a provocative move by *everyone* in the region, including South Korea. People still haven't forgotten that whole "Japan conquering ERRYBODY UP IN HERE" back in the early 20th century.
3. IMHO, biggest potential for an accidental dustup there would be some American commander who doesn't like the Chinese. But it wouldn't be any kind of officially-sanctioned policy. Most worrisome possibility there is that some gung-ho commander intervenes and comes into conflict with Chinese troops, and then domestic political pressure from the Right prevents the President from disavowing the action and apologizing. "Saving face" isn't just a concern for the Chinese. :-/
4. In any case, I can't imagine even that sort of incident escalating into a full-on conflict unless there were numerous other factors at play (a trade war, geopolitical friction over other disputes, etc.)
Bottom line: We're not going to start a war to "save" North Korea from China. Especially when quality of life (and even degree of freedom) for North Koreans would probably be considerably improved under Beijing's administration.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 29, 2013, 01:05:11 am
South Korean troops are across the DMZ (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0D11FF3C591A7B93C3A9178BD95F448585F9).
Unofficially.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 29, 2013, 01:10:31 am
Post by: Frumple on March 29, 2013, 01:12:12 am
I'm honestly kinda' surprised they still have stuff archived from 1950, t'be honest. Especially public facing. Kinda' neat.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 29, 2013, 01:14:46 am
Quote
October 01, 1950
Dammit, Cfoofoo. That was well played.
Post by: Scelly9 on March 29, 2013, 01:16:15 am
Post by: lordcooper on March 29, 2013, 01:16:55 am
Post by: alexandertnt on March 29, 2013, 01:42:50 am
Post by: lordcooper on March 29, 2013, 01:44:04 am
It would be crazy and insane to start a war for any side. The thing that worries me is NK has no shortage of crazy and insane...
Neither does America.
Post by: Scelly9 on March 29, 2013, 01:47:59 am
Why's the US being a dick?Because the US would get even more ostracized if we attacked without provocation. This way we can go "but they attacked first!"
Post by: Max White on March 29, 2013, 01:49:59 am
But I know that if anybody else said that, I would be the first to roll my eyes and say 'Because that worked so well in the past, right?'
Post by: alexandertnt on March 29, 2013, 01:59:54 am
It would be crazy and insane to start a war for any side. The thing that worries me is NK has no shortage of crazy and insane...
Neither does America.
No, but starting a war against a power many times more powerful than you would be somewhat more insane and crazy than starting a war against a little unerprepared country.
Post by: Knight of Fools on March 29, 2013, 02:01:05 am
I'm really tempted to say 'Well at least we can dethrone the NK government and actually help its people'Just stick a McDonalds in it. Problem solved.
But I know that if anybody else said that, I would be the first to roll my eyes and say 'Because that worked so well in the past, right?'
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 29, 2013, 03:07:34 am
1) Wouldnt they have been quite "ready" anyway? I mean, this is NK after all.
2) If the Stealth Bomber flights were a genuine threat, they wouldnt have known they were there until things started to go boom.
3) The bomber flights are part of ongoing drills. Is this NK looking for an excuse to spout more crap in an effort to start a fight again?
4) Why oh why did the US comment in the manner they did? Isnt that just stooping to thier level?
Post by: lordcooper on March 29, 2013, 03:24:40 am
3) The bomber flights are part of ongoing drills. Is this NK looking for an excuse to spout more crap in an effort to start a fight again?
How comfortable would you be with NK bombers (if they had any) doing drills over Cardiff?
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 29, 2013, 03:31:24 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 29, 2013, 03:36:33 am
Then I saw the date...>.>
This should have been done on April Fool's Day. XD
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 29, 2013, 04:16:18 am
NK readies missile sites after Stealth Bomber flights... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21972936)
...3) The bomber flights are part of ongoing drills. Is this NK looking for an excuse to spout more crap in an effort to start a fight again?
Alternatively, North Korean government actually thinks that Americans and South Koreans may try to start an invasion after pulling in troops under the guise of military exercise. It reminds me of how the Soviet military was put on full alert during Able Archer 83, because the Soviet government thought that the US would launch a decapitation strike at USSR during the exercises.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 29, 2013, 05:20:42 am
1) Wouldnt they have been quite "ready" anyway? I mean, this is NK after all.They are and have been. This is otherwise an ordinary occurrence held up by the media because scary.
Pyongyang has been angered by fresh UN sanctions and annual US-South Korea military drills.
2) If the Stealth Bomber flights were a genuine threat, they wouldnt have known they were there until things started to go boom.[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_of_force
Royal Navy used to do this before WWII, just park a warship next to someone's country and scare them into folding into line. This is like that except with stealth bombers. North Koreans not amused, much like any other country would be if they came with clear hostile intent.
3) The bomber flights are part of ongoing drills. Is this NK looking for an excuse to spout more crap in an effort to start a fight again?""If they make a reckless provocation with huge strategic forces, the Korean People's Army (KPA) should mercilessly strike the US mainland, their stronghold, their military bases in the operational theatres in the Pacific, including Hawaii and Guam, and those in South Korea," the agency quoted him as saying.""
They have literally been saying this same paraphrased sentence again and again and again. If they wanted to fight, they wouldn't need an excuse.
4) Why oh why did the US comment in the manner they did? Isnt that just stooping to thier level?"The North Koreans have to understand that what they're doing is very dangerous," US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel told reporters on Thursday. "We must make clear that these provocations by the North are taken by us very seriously and we'll respond to that."
They're kinda obligated to defend their actions.
Post by: alexandertnt on March 29, 2013, 07:18:06 am
NK readies missile sites after Stealth Bomber flights... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21972936)
1) Wouldnt they have been quite "ready" anyway? I mean, this is NK after all.
With regards specifically to missiles, you cannot keep them on ready all the time (at least the old soviet-style ones that NK uses). For example on some missiles the fuel actually eats away at the fuel tanks, so they cannot be kept fueled.
Post by: Owlbread on March 29, 2013, 07:18:31 am
Post by: alexandertnt on March 29, 2013, 07:32:24 am
1. North Korea starting a war would be suicidal, loopy and crazy. So they are not going to do it.
2. They are (or at least seem to be) suicidal, loopy and crazy. So they are going to do it.
so it seems to be a question of working out if they are actually as crazy as they seem, or if that is a show-put-on-for-some-reason/sensational-reporting/other-reason.
Post by: shadenight123 on March 29, 2013, 08:13:09 am
1) NK attacks, and gets razed to the ground.
2) NK stops attacking, and gets sanctioned so hard it will hurt them for the centuries to come, with obligations to get external viewers within the country, and subjected to heavy-handed external controls.
Post by: Fniff on March 29, 2013, 09:46:02 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 29, 2013, 11:15:53 am
Post by: Fniff on March 29, 2013, 11:18:09 am
Why even try attacking the mainland of America? It's so pointless and useless. The battle plan, that is, not mainland America.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 29, 2013, 11:19:45 am
NK is bluffing, like always. They don't want war, because their main goal is as it always has been: Keeping the regime in power. This is just an attempt by the new ruler to show that he's strong and powerful to keep any potential upstarts within his government subdued. If anything does happen, I predict that it'll be quickly scaled back and blamed on someone he wants to get rid of.
Post by: nenjin on March 29, 2013, 11:20:41 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 29, 2013, 11:23:04 am
NORTH KOREA STRONG
Post by: palsch on March 29, 2013, 11:35:38 am
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! (http://imgur.com/a/dUZmt)Gold (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9960933/North-Korea-plan-to-attack-US-mainland-revealed-in-photographs.html).
Quote
The images show a chart marked "US mainland strike plan" and missile trajectories that the NK News web site estimates terminate in Hawaii, Washington DC, Los Angeles and Austin, Texas.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 29, 2013, 11:36:03 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 29, 2013, 11:36:47 am
Post by: Vactor on March 29, 2013, 11:37:01 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 29, 2013, 11:41:33 am
It's worked really well for them for generations, I doubt they'll stop now.
Post by: Owlbread on March 29, 2013, 11:42:42 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 29, 2013, 12:17:34 pm
Mexico might have something to say about that...
Post by: olemars on March 29, 2013, 02:34:59 pm
If a handful of those get too nervous and cause an incident this could escalate almost instantly.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 29, 2013, 03:31:27 pm
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! (http://imgur.com/a/dUZmt)Gold (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9960933/North-Korea-plan-to-attack-US-mainland-revealed-in-photographs.html).QuoteThe images show a chart marked "US mainland strike plan" and missile trajectories that the NK News web site estimates terminate in Hawaii, Washington DC, Los Angeles and Austin, Texas.
I feel like this was done on purpose, though. Can't tell me a propaganda-exporter-only like NK would make that kind of massive fuckup. Probably just to make us [or the gullible] believe they could attack the mainland. Not that they can, but whatever.
Post by: DJ on March 29, 2013, 03:34:29 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on March 29, 2013, 03:37:26 pm
Why are they hating on Austin?What would the U.S. do if it lost a city in its largest state? Guaranteed panic.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 29, 2013, 03:40:37 pm
Why are they hating on Austin?What would the U.S. do if it lost a city in its largest state? Guaranteed panic.
Psssst. Texas isn't the largest state.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 29, 2013, 03:41:53 pm
Why are they hating on Austin?What would the U.S. do if it lost a city in its largest state? Guaranteed panic.
Psssst. Texas isn't the largest state.
And here I was hoping that that would be obvious enough to not require a Poe check.
Post by: penguinofhonor on March 29, 2013, 03:53:07 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on March 29, 2013, 03:58:00 pm
All this shit is just a show for their own citizens. If North Korea were the only country in the world all of this would still be happening.
Post by: Ameablable on March 29, 2013, 04:01:59 pm
They really should strike somewhere like Abbott, Texas. With only 328 people, it'd be way easier to strike fear into our country by destroying it.With what little money they have as a country that seems like a huge waste of a bombing.
and why Abbot Texas?
(just curious cause its such a specific example...)
Post by: Haspen on March 29, 2013, 04:04:58 pm
But honestly it's most possibly something like this:
*World worried, North Koreans in doubt*
Kim Jong Un: WE WILL GUIDE THE MOTHERLAND INTO GLORY
*World freaks out, North Koreans cheer*
NK general: Good job, great leader, nation loves you just like the previous great leaders!
Kim Jon Un: C:
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 29, 2013, 04:13:40 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on March 29, 2013, 04:16:21 pm
and why Abbot Texas?
(just curious cause its such a specific example...)
I googled "smallest city in Texas" and it came up.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 29, 2013, 04:18:32 pm
and why Abbot Texas?
(just curious cause its such a specific example...)
I googled "smallest city in Texas" and it came up.
Anything smaller than that stops being a "city" and becomes a compound.
Post by: Vactor on March 29, 2013, 07:25:47 pm
The danger in NK isn't really the leadership, their sole objective is holding onto their power and cushy privileges. The danger lies with the soldiers and mid-level officers who keep hearing the Young General telling them to be ready to attack at any minute, war is right around the corner, and who have been taught since childhood that the SK and US soldiers just across the border are itching to kill them and feast on their flesh.
If a handful of those get too nervous and cause an incident this could escalate almost instantly.
Look up the Soviet Defector Incident, This has happened in the past, and the mid-level officer and soldier who broke the ceasefire were executed.
Post by: Strife26 on March 29, 2013, 07:40:48 pm
Post by: misko27 on March 29, 2013, 07:45:50 pm
The US isn't helping matters though. They sent nuclear capable B2 bombers to drill for the first time. Is not good. Don't prove them right.
Post by: Aqizzar on March 29, 2013, 07:49:45 pm
I like the Mac desktops. Definitely a real military command center, you can tell by futuristic they are.
Post by: Mlamlah on March 29, 2013, 07:50:40 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on March 29, 2013, 08:07:30 pm
The thing is you NEVER attack a large city first. You hit some rinky-dink Podunk town in the middle of nowhere, Then the enemy knows you're serious (and presumably back-shit crazy) and concede. It's why during the cold war, all the "nuclear attack on the US" scenarios center around nuking Cleveland.
So does that mean my "attack the smallest city that's still a city" plan makes me a master strategist?
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 30, 2013, 03:28:47 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 30, 2013, 05:26:00 am
Post by: DJ on March 30, 2013, 05:37:00 am
Man, the fuck does Best Korea have against Austin? That's like the one good town in Texas. Not cool dudes, I know it's just propaganda but why ya gotta hate?It's the best town anywhere. All the awesomeness of Texas accent, and none of the political regressiveness. Can't they just nuke something else :'(
Post by: lordcooper on March 30, 2013, 05:48:36 am
Post by: Azated on March 30, 2013, 06:57:46 am
Post by: alexandertnt on March 30, 2013, 07:12:46 am
But as people have pointed out, it doesn't seem like they are doing what they are doing to start a war, moreso to try to force hands in negotiations.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 30, 2013, 09:51:35 am
Can we get them to nuke Milton Keynes? I'm willing to switch sides if they do this.How about the house of the Westboro Baptist Church? I'd be all for that.
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 30, 2013, 11:01:24 am
Can we get them to nuke Milton Keynes? I'm willing to switch sides if they do this.What's so bad about Milton Keynes?
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 30, 2013, 11:04:33 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 30, 2013, 11:07:19 am
"North Korean news announces that massive groups of westerners are now supporting the North Koreans."Can we get them to nuke Milton Keynes? I'm willing to switch sides if they do this.How about the house of the Westboro Baptist Church? I'd be all for that.
"Surprisingly, they're not making this shit up."
Post by: Owlbread on March 30, 2013, 11:15:26 am
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 30, 2013, 11:43:48 am
Post by: Pnx on March 30, 2013, 11:44:29 am
But as people have pointed out, it doesn't seem like they are doing what they are doing to start a war, moreso to try to force hands in negotiations.Well there's also the idea that they might be doing this as a propaganda effort, this whole thing may be intended mostly for internal consumption.
Emphasising outside threats is a big staple of fascist regimes. Hitler did it, Stalin did it, Mussolini did it, Mao did it, Bush did it, "we need to defend our nation" is a pretty powerful justification for just about anything. So it does make sense that by making the nation seem at the edge of war, and emphasising the Great Leader's efforts to combat the western menace, they're combating internal dissent.
Of course, it could be both of these things at the same time. Or they could just be doing this stuff because it's the North Korean way.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 30, 2013, 11:49:29 am
"we need to defend our nation"I'm surprised just how many times this keeps happening :|
->
Invade someone else's nation
Post by: Owlbread on March 30, 2013, 11:52:11 am
Please, drop nukes on Rhyl. Please.
At least you could make use of all that green glass for bottles or something. It would add some bloody worth.
Post by: ibot66 on March 30, 2013, 01:33:42 pm
Well, you won't see the m invading you!"we need to defend our nation"I'm surprised just how many times this keeps happening :|
->
Invade someone else's nation
Post by: Haspen on March 31, 2013, 07:39:43 am
Have something funny to unload your terribly nuclear-attack-possibility stressed nerves :P
Post by: Ogdibus on March 31, 2013, 07:42:32 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 31, 2013, 07:47:40 am
"we need to defend our nation"I'm surprised just how many times this keeps happening :|
->
Invade someone else's nation
Quote
Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
Post by: Korbac on March 31, 2013, 09:03:14 am
Post by: Owlbread on March 31, 2013, 12:24:36 pm
Ey up now butt. What's wrong with Rhyl? XD
One of the places in the world that could really benefit from a G.E.C.K kit.
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 31, 2013, 01:42:56 pm
Ey up now butt. What's wrong with Rhyl? XD
It has a revolving resteraunt that
a) is no longer allowed to serve food due to foods standards interventions
b) no longer rotates due to structural failures.
That should be all you need to know.
Post by: Just Some Guy on March 31, 2013, 02:36:53 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 31, 2013, 02:47:53 pm
I don't think it deserves to be bombed.
Post by: MonkeyHead on March 31, 2013, 03:13:13 pm
According to Wikipedia it's just a former resort town with a declining economy.
I don't think it deserves to be bombed.
I live within driving distance of it. I do.
Post by: Owlbread on March 31, 2013, 03:25:33 pm
According to Wikipedia it's just a former resort town with a declining economy.
I don't think it deserves to be bombed.
Yes it does.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 31, 2013, 03:40:01 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2013, 05:01:48 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/6lFjtjy.png)
Have something funny to unload your terribly nuclear-attack-possibility stressed nerves :P
Wow... that is a really good photoshop.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 31, 2013, 06:09:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Have something funny to unload your terribly nuclear-attack-possibility stressed nerves :P
Wow... that is a really good photoshop.
Photoshop? Dear general is very good actor. It is known. Capitalist dog please. I bet you're going to eat those Tuesday birds next.
NORTH KOREA STRONG
KIM JONG-UN FABULOUS
Post by: Lagslayer on March 31, 2013, 08:19:59 pm
+1 to him being unfabulous.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Have something funny to unload your terribly nuclear-attack-possibility stressed nerves :P
Wow... that is a really good photoshop.
Photoshop? Dear general is very good actor. It is known. Capitalist dog please. I bet you're going to eat those Tuesday birds next.
NORTH KOREA STRONG
KIM JONG-UN FABULOUS
Post by: mainiac on April 01, 2013, 09:58:26 am
Quote
On Sunday, North Korea said economic development and an expansion of the nuclear program could take place “simultaneously” because a growing nuclear deterrent could allow the North to limit military spending and put more resources into the agricultural sector and light industries to improve people’s lives. In what appeared to be related move, officials at the party meeting appointed Pak Pong-ju, a minister in charge of light industries who has supported economic policy changes in the past, to the Politburo.
Now the article doesn't elaborate so I don't really know what the source of this is but it sort of makes sense. Kim Jong-un was educated in Europe and might have a pretty good idea how badly pouring all the countries resources into the military is working. So he continues daddies testing program to appease the hardliners then uses it as covers to divert money to where it is desperately needed, agriculture and light industry.
Now the question remains why he would bite the hand that literally feeds while at it. It could be that he buys into the whole Juche idea. Or it could be that he's just making it up as he goes along and is doing about as well as you can expect given that he is basically learning on the job.
Post by: DrPoo on April 01, 2013, 10:25:34 am
Stop running around with fishbowl decorations and airsoft rifles.
Stop farting around. Feed your people.
Wheres the coups at? We have all the power in the world to fix those poor suckers.
Post by: Aseaheru on April 01, 2013, 12:01:01 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 12:37:42 pm
(http://www.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/kju_1.jpg)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 01, 2013, 12:41:31 pm
Post by: RedKing on April 01, 2013, 12:44:50 pm
If you'll excuse me, I need to get a new pair of pants.
Post by: nenjin on April 01, 2013, 12:45:48 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 01, 2013, 12:50:09 pm
Post by: Sir Finkus on April 01, 2013, 12:56:17 pm
Breaking news guys. I wish this wasn't true. North Korea has fired a barrage of missiles at the South Korean city of Suwon. Nobody was prepared, thousands are dead.
The South has promised nuclear retaliation, which has been backed up by President Obama. Troops will be sent from Japan to support the South.
May god have mercy on us all.Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler: News links (click to show/hide)
Well that was in poor taste.
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:00:50 pm
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 01, 2013, 01:01:53 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:02:59 pm
It's past mid-day anyway, I shouldn't be pulling anyone's leg now.
Post by: kaijyuu on April 01, 2013, 01:03:03 pm
No one had to do it.
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 01, 2013, 01:03:56 pm
It's April 1st, chaos is acceptable.No one had to do it.
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:09:32 pm
No one had to do it.
Laugh and grow fat, my friend. Laugh and grow fat.
(http://mimg.ugo.com/200812/14192/cuts/fatman_288x288.jpg)
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 01, 2013, 01:09:49 pm
It's April 1st, chaos is acceptable.No one had to do it.
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
ｙｏｕ ｈａｄ ｍｅ ｅｘｃｉｔｅｄ． ｓｈａｍｅ ｏｎ ｙｏｕ． ｓｈａａａａａａａａａａａａｍｅ．
Post by: Ochita on April 01, 2013, 01:17:27 pm
Reallllyyyy bad taste.
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:21:20 pm
In actual news though, things are still pretty quiet. The North is just reaffirming their commitment to the integration of nuclear weapons in their military.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21995224
The South is reaffirming the tough responses they would take to any Northern attack.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d6aab9e-9a88-11e2-b982-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2PF1OFc1m
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 01:23:33 pm
Seriously?
Reallllyyyy bad taste.
APRIL FOOLS! That makes it funny :D
Post by: kaenneth on April 01, 2013, 01:30:57 pm
Is april fools an american thing?
Post by: Max White on April 01, 2013, 01:33:27 pm
Is april fools an american thing?Nope, it is pretty wide spread.
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 01:35:03 pm
IT IS FUNNY DON'T YOU GET IT!?! APRIL FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLS!
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 01, 2013, 01:37:14 pm
In my Elementary in CANADA the teachers used to stay by the front doors and shoot all the students with water guns.
IT IS FUNNY DON'T YOU GET IT!?! APRIL FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLS!
Ｔｈａｔ’ｓ ｓｏｍｅ ｓｏｒｔ ｏｆ ｓｌａｖｉｃ ｔｒａｄｉｔｉｏｎ， Ｉ ｔｈｉｎｋ．
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 01:43:46 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:50:42 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 01, 2013, 01:52:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 01:53:40 pm
Doing some soul searching I've realized that some part of me wants to see Kim jr bombed because while we're of an age, he became king of Best Korea just for being daddy's son, while I busted my ass in medical school for the dubious priviledge of working every day and pulling three allnighters a month for 1500€. I can't help but see him as some kind of jerk jock deserving a bloody nose.
And... you know, he's a mass murderer, despotic ruler of a hellhole... all that stuff.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 01, 2013, 02:15:30 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 01, 2013, 02:16:48 pm
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 02:17:31 pm
Post by: DrPoo on April 01, 2013, 02:36:30 pm
It's April 1st, chaos is acceptable.No one had to do it.
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
ｙｏｕ ｈａｄ ｍｅ ｅｘｃｉｔｅｄ． ｓｈａｍｅ ｏｎ ｙｏｕ． ｓｈａａａａａａａａａａａａｍｅ．
Would you please cut the asinine ammounts of eye rape in your text? Do you really have to be a special snowflake with your italic? Why cant you just use plain and readable arial or whatever?
Post by: Scelly9 on April 01, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
Check the rage thread.It's April 1st, chaos is acceptable.No one had to do it.
Well that was in poor taste.
Someone had to do it. I just took the burden upon myself to spare you gentlemen the shame.
ｙｏｕ ｈａｄ ｍｅ ｅｘｃｉｔｅｄ． ｓｈａｍｅ ｏｎ ｙｏｕ． ｓｈａａａａａａａａａａａａｍｅ．
Would you please cut the asinine ammounts of eye rape in your text? Do you really have to be a special snowflake with your italic? Why cant you just use plain and readable arial or whatever?
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 02:43:37 pm
3, 3, 2, 8, 5, 2, 4, 17
"For Now We Complete brief my foul acquaintanceships"
Seems to be the jist of what was said.
Post by: Max White on April 01, 2013, 02:46:35 pm
ｙｏｕ ｈａｄ ｍｅ ｅｘｃｉｔｅｄ． ｓｈａｍｅ ｏｎ ｙｏｕ． ｓｈａａａａａａａａａａａａｍｅ．Translation:
I will devour your very being in the name of those who were watching as you monkeys first pulled yourself from the mud.
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 02:48:17 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 01, 2013, 02:51:36 pm
Every year I wonder what would have happened if the '9-11' attacks were the '4-1' attacks instead; super-extra chaos.Ugh. I keep thinking the Americans are talking about the 9th of November. Then I realize: because America.
Is april fools an american thing?
Doing some soul searching I've realized that some part of me wants to see Kim jr bombed because while we're of an age, he became king of Best Korea just for being daddy's son, while I busted my ass in medical school for the dubious priviledge of working every day and pulling three allnighters a month for 1500€. I can't help but see him as some kind of jerk jock deserving a bloody nose.Kim Jong-Un fabulous had to deal with a lot of crap left by his father like reigning in the military before he could continue his father's legacy of crimes against humanity.
Post by: misko27 on April 01, 2013, 08:35:50 pm
Anyway, there some small part of me that want's to believe in Kim Jong-un, that he'll stand up against the US, Democracy, and Sanity for dictators and the oppressive everywhere.
Post by: Haspen on April 02, 2013, 06:56:41 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 02, 2013, 07:03:20 am
Apparently China started to mobilize it's forces at the border with North Korea v:Sauce?
Post by: Jopax on April 02, 2013, 07:07:48 am
Apparently China started to mobilize it's forces at the border with North Korea v:Sauce?
I prefer it to be spicy.
Post by: Haspen on April 02, 2013, 07:10:31 am
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/1/showdown-looming-china-mobilizing-troops-jets-near/
Post by: Max White on April 02, 2013, 07:17:15 am
Fuuuuuuck...
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 02, 2013, 07:21:04 am
Post by: Haspen on April 02, 2013, 07:22:22 am
Post by: Jopax on April 02, 2013, 07:25:13 am
Atleast that's what I hope it is, China can't be this crazy to actually go trough with this BFF stuff they have with NK.
E: Or what the ninjas suggest.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 02, 2013, 08:02:53 am
Post by: RedKing on April 02, 2013, 09:52:51 am
Interesting times indeed. :-\
Post by: tahujdt on April 02, 2013, 10:15:12 am
I'm with MH on this. I think it's more propable that China will just barge into NK, flip the current regime over and put a puppet there to ensure the peace is back.A Chinese puppet in NK and a American puppet (note: I don't really believe this) in SK: What a puppet show!
Post by: RedKing on April 02, 2013, 10:37:00 am
Bear in mind that while the people are terrified of their Immortal God-King-President, he is *their* Immortal God-King-President. Installing a puppet is going to be tricky even for the Chinese. One possibility would be installing Kim Jong-nam, Kim Jong-il's eldest son who was passed over in the succession and who lives either in Beijing or Macau.I'm with MH on this. I think it's more propable that China will just barge into NK, flip the current regime over and put a puppet there to ensure the peace is back.A Chinese puppet in NK and a American puppet (note: I don't really believe this) in SK: What a puppet show!
Post by: Owlbread on April 02, 2013, 10:38:38 am
Post by: RedKing on April 02, 2013, 10:42:31 am
Post by: MaximumZero on April 02, 2013, 10:46:55 am
"Oh, hey, China and US, I know you said to do that thing, and we're totally going to, but it's going to have to wait until I spread around all this food."
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 02, 2013, 01:46:44 pm
Post by: DJ on April 02, 2013, 01:50:10 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on April 02, 2013, 06:31:36 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 02, 2013, 06:32:48 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on April 02, 2013, 06:37:52 pm
Doubt it. He can get almost anything he wants second-hand through China.But can he buy a child's laugh?
Post by: Mephansteras on April 02, 2013, 06:39:26 pm
Doubt it. He can get almost anything he wants second-hand through China.But can he buy a child's laugh?
Easy. Hand one some food and he's pretty well set for that.
Which is really only sad in context, since I can make my Niece laugh with candy pretty easily and she's far from starving.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 03, 2013, 12:01:00 am
Post by: Scelly9 on April 03, 2013, 12:01:20 am
Post by: Sirus on April 03, 2013, 12:01:54 am
North Korea shuts down Kaesong Industrial Complex (http://)Just so you know, http:// is a satire site, like the Onion.
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2013, 12:02:28 am
North Korea shuts down Kaesong Industrial Complex (http://)Just so you know, http:// is a satire site, like the Onion.
Maybe the Onion had the joke.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 03, 2013, 12:03:03 am
Post by: IronyOwl on April 03, 2013, 01:34:07 am
Not sure what their gameplan is otherwise, and a violent hostage rescue operation sounds about as likely as anything to escalate the situation.
Post by: Tellemurius on April 03, 2013, 01:49:38 am
This is unfortunate and strange. Hopefully they're just going to hold it for a day or two and then graciously let them off the hook this one time.maybe workers are train to cause chaotic damage in case north korea pulled this shit again?
Not sure what their gameplan is otherwise, and a violent hostage rescue operation sounds about as likely as anything to escalate the situation.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 03, 2013, 02:08:02 am
edit: oh, they did it again. :/
Post by: Sigulbard on April 03, 2013, 04:27:28 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 03, 2013, 04:34:36 am
Every time the name of this topic changes I think that a new topic about North Korea has been created, then I check it and discover it's the same old-same old. You should come up with a persistent name, like 'NEWS ABOUT NORTH KOREA' or something.
The purpose is to attract you to the thread. :3
It won't be the same old North Korea thread if you start posting in it. It's a documented fact.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 03, 2013, 01:17:38 pm
Post by: Scelly9 on April 03, 2013, 01:18:55 pm
This ain't good. (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2013/04/03/14/0401000000AEN20130403007800315F.HTML)I give it a week before actual war begins again.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 01:27:49 pm
Post by: Vactor on April 03, 2013, 01:32:35 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 03, 2013, 01:32:56 pm
This thread seems to be becoming worse the more apparent it becomes that nothing is going to come of this. Trying to gin up some feeling of imminent threat isn't productive. Just let it go and discuss the actual events.No.
Post by: Sigulbard on April 03, 2013, 01:37:19 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 03, 2013, 01:50:17 pm
Looks like the military's starting to crack, if only a little.
Post by: Owlbread on April 03, 2013, 01:53:44 pm
Post by: Culise on April 03, 2013, 03:17:10 pm
Check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10460)Let's certainly hope they don't crack outright. AFP (the French equivalent of the AP) literally just reported that the North Korean General Staff has been given "final approval" for nuclear strikes (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpuimXzka5inwGnL0c9vZsbQ54fw?docId=CNG.4eb43e27607cb9d4be6b952b88ddefeb.01), in yet another display of brinksmanship. I wonder if they're getting worried that they haven't been able to extract concessions yet as they've managed in the past.
Looks like the military's starting to crack, if only a little.
Post by: RedKing on April 03, 2013, 03:29:00 pm
Check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10460)Best outcome now might be a Kiel mutiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny) type situation. General Staff orders its starving soldiers to prepare for a final apocalyptic showdown, soldiers decide "Fuck that noise" and remember that their guns shoot just as well at officers as they do the enemy.
Looks like the military's starting to crack, if only a little.
Then again....mass rebellion and civil unrest in North Korea probably wouldn't be a whole lot better. Especially if the current regime sees their power disintegrating, they might actually set us up the bomb. :-\
Post by: Owlbread on April 03, 2013, 03:42:24 pm
It's been enough to get the Americans in gear, anyway.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 03, 2013, 03:45:00 pm
This ain't good. (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2013/04/03/14/0401000000AEN20130403007800315F.HTML)Actually, this seems to make it sound much better. As noted, they're free to go whenever they like; they just haven't because the companies on site want them to stay and keep working because they know they won't be able to come back if they do leave. They also did this before under similar circumstances, so it sounds more like posturing in response to posturing than anything genuinely dangerous.
That said, it does look like a sign that relations are far more stressed than usual.
Check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10460)So... I wonder where that leaves NK. Truth be told their military isn't much anyway, so they could probably just ignore this and be "fine," but I'm curious if that'll put more stress on command in thinking they're running out of time. If that happens, best case they'll be willing to lose face and break off without concessions, worst case... I dunno. Maybe they'd do something stupid, but they've gotta know that anything major would be a really bad idea.
Looks like the military's starting to crack, if only a little.
I guess my main concern is that they don't know how to break off in a game of chicken. A newish despot in a paranoid, isolated, somewhat desperate, heavily militarized nation might be kind of likely to have some of that problem.
Let's certainly hope they don't crack outright. AFP (the French equivalent of the AP) literally just reported that the North Korean General Staff has been given "final approval" for nuclear strikes (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpuimXzka5inwGnL0c9vZsbQ54fw?docId=CNG.4eb43e27607cb9d4be6b952b88ddefeb.01), in yet another display of brinksmanship. I wonder if they're getting worried that they haven't been able to extract concessions yet as they've managed in the past.They still don't have any nukes to use though, do they? Sounds like more defensive Don't Mess With Us rhetoric. Apparently those bombers the US has backing up SK really get under NK's skin.
Which makes sense, of course. If someone had weapons that could blow up anything anywhere without warning or any possibility of doing anything about them, I'm thinking most people would be a bit apprehensive about them. Sort of the issue with nuclear weapons, after all.
Best outcome now might be a Kiel mutiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_mutiny) type situation. General Staff orders its starving soldiers to prepare for a final apocalyptic showdown, soldiers decide "Fuck that noise" and remember that their guns shoot just as well at officers as they do the enemy.Among other issues, there's just not enough stuff, notably food, to go around. I wouldn't have much hope for whoever can properly wrangle a mass military uprising being the best of leaders under normal circumstances, but as it stands you're just asking for the military to grab and keep all the food and then work from there. Even if things got better, they'd probably get better in that context.
Then again....mass rebellion and civil unrest in North Korea probably wouldn't be a whole lot better. Especially if the current regime sees their power disintegrating, they might actually set us up the bomb. :-\
Which... I guess might still be better than the current situation, but I'm kind of dubious.
Then again, if there's an internal coup the US or China (or maybe even SK, especially if they're worried about the aforementioned) might feel justified going in officially and straightening things out. That'd probably be better than the current situation, but it'd be rife with all sorts of different problems.
Post by: RedKing on April 03, 2013, 03:49:55 pm
I don't think there's room for North North Korea and South North Korea. :-\
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 03:50:28 pm
1) The US/SK back down and give the NK stuff to make them shut up and go away, as has happened so many times in the past
2) NK backs down, because despite their bluster they know that they'd lose in a war and the ruling caste likes things the way they are. Some excuse will be made about a subordinate doing something unauthorized and someone will probably have a really bad day, but things go back to normal.
3) NK's leader refuses to back down and is replaced by the rest of the government for putting the rest of them at risk. Probably because of an 'American' assassin, which raises tensions for a bit but ultimately dies down, especially if the US gives them aid to quiet them back down.
Post by: Owlbread on April 03, 2013, 03:54:13 pm
I'm actually in favour of Kim il-sung's unification model; a Confederation of Korea where the two states/systems exist in devolved forms, albeit within a greater state. Obviously the North needs to be reformed to the point that it's democratic, but keeping at least some kind of a Socialist system in place in the North will help to ease the transition. We only need to think of how hard it was for East Germans to adjust to the Capitalist system.
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 03, 2013, 03:54:57 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 03, 2013, 04:19:37 pm
The war threats are just another method to get free stuff. The DPRK exploits its status in order to leech off South Korea and the US.
Post by: Culise on April 03, 2013, 04:20:50 pm
Let's certainly hope they don't crack outright. AFP (the French equivalent of the AP) literally just reported that the North Korean General Staff has been given "final approval" for nuclear strikes (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpuimXzka5inwGnL0c9vZsbQ54fw?docId=CNG.4eb43e27607cb9d4be6b952b88ddefeb.01), in yet another display of brinksmanship. I wonder if they're getting worried that they haven't been able to extract concessions yet as they've managed in the past.They still don't have any nukes to use though, do they? Sounds like more defensive Don't Mess With Us rhetoric. Apparently those bombers the US has backing up SK really get under NK's skin.
Which makes sense, of course. If someone had weapons that could blow up anything anywhere without warning or any possibility of doing anything about them, I'm thinking most people would be a bit apprehensive about them. Sort of the issue with nuclear weapons, after all.
They claim they have nukes and the ability to hit U.S. mainland targets. The former is questionable and the latter is almost certainly not possible with what we know about their capabilities. It is generally believed that their breeder reactors have been running for long enough to have produced enough plutonium or enriched uranium for dozens of war heads, and we do know for an almost-certain fact that they have set off high-yield explosives in underground tests three times in 2006 (believed to be a fizzle), 2009, and February this year (both believed to be successes), since underground testing can be detected using seismometry and radiometry. It could genuinely (and is generally assumed to) be nuclear testing, or theoretically, just them smuggling equivalent amounts of conventional explosives into an underground bunker before setting it off all in one go. The lack of radionuclides after the 2009 and 2013 tests (which I didn't know about before writing up this post, and learned about only pursuing the notion of a conventional cause) could possibly mean the latter, but the depth of the explosions would also explain why no radiation would have escaped to the surface. The real issue isn't just nuclear weapons, but also delivery systems - nuclear warheads are heavy blighters, after all. Their largest missiles, capable of striking the U.S. West Coast, were never successfully tested, with the exception of the Eunha-3 used to put a satellite in orbit a few months ago (and even that failed to maintain the originally-intended orbit). Their primary missile arsenal's lifting ability is unknown, but they can certainly hit Japan or Guam with these missiles, hence the Americans expediting the transfer of a missile defense system to their base in Guam. What they can do, however, is load a warhead into a nondescript truck or tramp freighter, drive it into Seoul or sail it into some Japanese or American port, and set the thing off. This is, obviously, a nightmare scenario given the difficulty in finding a single cargo container in a single cheap freighter in a busy port like Tokyo Bay or Los Angeles Harbor, but it would purely be a weapon of terror - it would have no deeper strategic or tactical implications to the survival (or rather, the imminent lack therein) of the DPRK leadership. Alternately, they could use the things as land mines, which is almost as disturbing as the old Davy Crocketts.
That said, I agree that it's intended as a warning against a ROK/American preemptive strike, basically claiming that even a decapitation strike won't stop a nuclear retaliation from their theoretical arsenal. Not that a preemptive strike is likely, but the DPRKs can't be expected to know or trust that. Still, desperate people do desperate things, and being shot by your own people can really put a crimper on your day.
Post by: Another on April 03, 2013, 04:39:53 pm
Doesn't US monitor all ships that enter NK ports? It is probably possible to transfer the device to a second ship in a third country's port but that adds more points of failure to the plan. Does NK have submarines capable of shaking US subs off its tail?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 03, 2013, 04:50:21 pm
With the tiny amount of trade these isolationist guys are doing smuggling a nuke is not an easy task. I hope that it is practically impossible.Not ones big enough to smuggle a nuclear warhead.
Doesn't US monitor all ships that enter NK ports? It is probably possible to transfer the device to a second ship in a third country's port but that adds more points of failure to the plan. Does NK have submarines capable of shaking US subs off its tail?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 03, 2013, 04:59:07 pm
With the tiny amount of trade these isolationist guys are doing smuggling a nuke is not an easy task. I hope that it is practically impossible.Not ones big enough to smuggle a nuclear warhead.
Doesn't US monitor all ships that enter NK ports? It is probably possible to transfer the device to a second ship in a third country's port but that adds more points of failure to the plan. Does NK have submarines capable of shaking US subs off its tail?
They can probably smuggle it in parts.
I do not put it above them in any way.
Post by: Felius on April 03, 2013, 05:08:50 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 03, 2013, 05:33:33 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on April 03, 2013, 05:41:41 pm
Just because those exist doesn't mean NK is able to make them.And, also to note, just because it doesn't exist, it won't stop them from trying to make them.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 03, 2013, 11:47:08 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 04, 2013, 12:26:24 am
Food for though: Iran once bought a whole batch of NK rocketry and ended up seeking a refund. So.... NK rocket tech probably is not that good
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 04, 2013, 12:28:37 am
Food for though: Iran once bought a whole batch of NK rocketry and ended up seeking a refund. So.... NK rocket tech probably is not that goodThis is just so bemusing as to seem ACME in origin.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 04, 2013, 01:00:53 am
Food for though: Iran once bought a whole batch of NK rocketry and ended up seeking a refund. So.... NK rocket tech probably is not that good
Aaaand my month is made.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 04, 2013, 01:15:37 am
Then your spring will be made when you learn that North Korea stole a bunch of aid trains from the Chinese, claiming that they were included in the aid program. (https://www.strategypage.com/qnd/korea/articles/20060705.aspx)Food for though: Iran once bought a whole batch of NK rocketry and ended up seeking a refund. So.... NK rocket tech probably is not that good
Aaaand my month is made.
Post by: Ogdibus on April 04, 2013, 02:26:22 am
Post by: Tally on April 04, 2013, 05:12:23 am
While North Korea's waving their arms around, maybe that's what the higher-ups here are thinking about rather than any threat North Korea might pose. I could see international tensions rise if they ever do make a move.
Post by: Max White on April 04, 2013, 05:16:40 am
long-term rivalDo you mean to imply a rivalry between the USA and China?
Hue hue hue hue hue hue!!!
Look at anything in front of you, pick it up, and read the 'made in China' label on the bottom. Trade makes allies of us all.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 04, 2013, 05:29:51 am
If war with North Korea ever occurs (I consider it likely that all their nuke-waving is just a bluff), the question I have is... what happens next? Predictably, they would be squashedNo they wouldn't. North Korea can afford to lose so much more to cause more damage. A war with North Korea would not be a war to win, it would be a war to lose the least. And massacring the North Koreans is hardly a more palatable idea, nor would it even be a simple or clean thing to do.
But what follows is unclear to me, as there might be some major political ideology clashes between the US and China. Everyone involved is going to want their share, otherwise why get caught up in war, but yielding an inch to either side will benefit a long-term rival.Not since 1991.
The third option, of course, may be to give the land to South Korea, but as SK is a democratic nation, China might regard that as an advantage to their rival agenda.I don't even
While North Korea's waving their arms around, maybe that's what the higher-ups here are thinking about rather than any threat North Korea might pose. I could see international tensions rise if they ever do make a move.Maybe just a little
Post by: werty892 on April 04, 2013, 05:48:57 am
Post by: sneakey pete on April 04, 2013, 06:34:08 am
Fuck, if they launched a missile at somebody, It wouldn't make it past the anti-missile boats in the pacific.
Nice theory.
Course those missile systems have never been used in a real event before, so it remains a theory.
Post by: Sheb on April 04, 2013, 07:13:03 am
Post by: Skyrunner on April 04, 2013, 07:40:07 am
Post by: Descan on April 04, 2013, 08:19:46 am
Doubt they want to make their would-be new southern provinces a glass crater. Hard to farm on glass, I hear. Doesn't take water too well.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 04, 2013, 08:41:02 am
Post by: Sheb on April 04, 2013, 08:50:12 am
Post by: misko27 on April 04, 2013, 09:09:29 am
-wait, they haven't blown up anyone yet? Seriously?
Post by: Max White on April 04, 2013, 09:16:16 am
The problem is that when the US starts flying near the borders, a certain level of retaliation is expected for Kim Jong-Un to maintain his 'tough guy in control' image, so he ramps up efforts, so the US retaliates, so they retaliate, and war... war never changes.
Best we can hope for is China makes a quick stab to remove all current power, puts Kim Jong-Nam in as a puppet, and claims that they were 'Restoring the rightful leader' then we cross our fingers that the public buys it and doesn't start some uprising long enough to start some god damn food, shelter and education programs.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 04, 2013, 09:17:46 am
Descan, the problem is the Best Korean are pretty crappy farmers, what with all the starving and stuff.
I think the problem might possibly have something to do with so much of their resources going to support Great Leader's mighty war machine.
Post by: RedKing on April 04, 2013, 09:27:14 am
FTFYDescan, the problem is the Best Korean are pretty crappy farmers, what with all the starving and stuff.
I think the problem might possibly have something to do with so much of their resources going to support Great Leader's mighty belly.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 09:27:43 am
Spoiler: Agriculture in the DPRK is a grim business (click to show/hide)
Post by: RedKing on April 04, 2013, 09:39:36 am
The North Koreans aren't bad farmers themselves, but their agricultural policies are very badly managed by the central government. Soldiers also periodically carried out raids on farms, stealing whatever they could for themselves (at least in the 1990s during the great famine). Think of China back in the Great Leap Forward fiasco in which nearly 45 million people died - "I know, let's plant everything REALLY CLOSE TOGETHER!"Well, and I don't know about North Korea, but one of the core problems in the Chinese example was local collective officials inflating crop yields so that Beijing didn't have a handle on how poor their harvests were until it was a major problem.
Example:
Glorious People's Collective Farm #1138 raises 40 tons of rice.
GPCF1138's Agricultural Commisar reports a yield of 60 tons of rice, thinking he's gonna get a nice promotion.
Beijing says, "Great job! Now send us half."
Net result: GPCF is only left with 10 tons of rice to feed its' thousands of villagers, instead of the 20 it should have had if the yield had been correctly reported.
Add in the ever-increasing inflation of reporting (because no one wants to report that their yield fell or was even stagnant) and declining crop yields, and pretty quickly you hit a state where the government was confiscating all food for redistribution to urban dwellers but thought the farmers were fine due to record crop yields. There were plenty of cases of massive deaths due to famine while the storehouses were full of rice. :'(
Bad, bad times.
Post by: Pnx on April 04, 2013, 09:47:10 am
Also another example of bad ideas the Nampo Dam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nampo_Dam), ridiculous investment of resources, that lost them valuable farm land and as far as I know didn't even let them do the bigger river barges it was supposed to help them with.
Post by: scriver on April 04, 2013, 11:20:09 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 04, 2013, 02:19:11 pm
Post by: lordcooper on April 04, 2013, 02:20:36 pm
And now Anonymous is involved. (http://readwrite.com/2013/04/04/anonymous-hacks-official-north-korean-twitter-account)
Some poor sod is getting shot and his family sent to a 're-education camp' because of this.
Post by: Fniff on April 04, 2013, 02:36:12 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 04, 2013, 02:39:32 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 04, 2013, 02:40:57 pm
Post by: Scelly9 on April 04, 2013, 02:43:32 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 04, 2013, 02:47:37 pm
Quote from: Anonymous
You just went full retarded! Never go full retarded.
I love those guys
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 02:59:09 pm
The North Koreans are also quite angry because of an utterly revolting Japanese far-right rock song.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/04/the-japanese-rock-song-so-offensive-it-took-north-koreas-focus-off-u-s/
And they have moved a mid-range missile to the East coast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22027867
Also, we seem to be ignoring the possibility of the North using biological warfare against their enemies. Why would they balk at the use of anthrax or other deadly payloads in missiles? Remember all the stories about poisoned cabbage leaves in the prison camps, causing you to vomit blood and die? They've got nothing to lose.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 04, 2013, 03:26:14 pm
Also, we seem to be ignoring the possibility of the North using biological warfare against their enemies. Why would they balk at the use of anthrax or other deadly payloads in missiles? Remember all the stories about poisoned cabbage leaves in the prison camps, causing you to vomit blood and die? They've got nothing to lose.[Except killing everyone in the Korean peninsula and invoking a planetwide roflestomp with no room for negotiation].
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 04:14:20 pm
[Except killing everyone in the Korean peninsula and invoking a planetwide roflestomp with no room for negotiation].
Yes, but I am talking about if things go nuclear - in which case roflestomp is going to happen anyway.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 04, 2013, 04:27:35 pm
In which case you can lump them together with nukes in terms of long term damage. So no worries, not much you could do about either.[Except killing everyone in the Korean peninsula and invoking a planetwide roflestomp with no room for negotiation].Yes, but I am talking about if things go nuclear - in which case roflestomp is going to happen anyway.
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 04:39:58 pm
In which case you can lump them together with nukes in terms of long term damage. So no worries, not much you could do about either.
But I am saying that regardless of how many nukes the North Koreans may have, who knows what kind of biological weaponry they could have?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 04, 2013, 04:48:07 pm
Post by: mainiac on April 04, 2013, 04:52:33 pm
And now Anonymous is involved. (http://readwrite.com/2013/04/04/anonymous-hacks-official-north-korean-twitter-account)
I had grudgingly started to respect anonymous over the past few years. In one sentence I am now convinced that I should never make the mistake of respecting them again.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 04, 2013, 05:05:32 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 05:28:20 pm
And now for a few words from our wonderful Prime Minister.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9972193/Cameron-fact-that-North-Korea-has-technology-for-nuclear-strike-against-the-UK.html
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 04, 2013, 05:38:46 pm
Hell, they can barely hit America. Only Alaska. And almost no one lives in Alaska.
Post by: mainiac on April 04, 2013, 05:40:24 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on April 04, 2013, 05:42:36 pm
Quote
The Prime Minister said the threat from North Korea showed that Britain needs to keep the Trident nuclear deterrent.Oh. That makes sense for why.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 04, 2013, 05:43:52 pm
And now Anonymous is involved. (http://readwrite.com/2013/04/04/anonymous-hacks-official-north-korean-twitter-account)
I had grudgingly started to respect anonymous over the past few years. In one sentence I am now convinced that I should never make the mistake of respecting them again.
Thank you!
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 04, 2013, 05:44:28 pm
Why in the world would Mr. Cameron lie about th...QuoteThe Prime Minister said the threat from North Korea showed that Britain needs to keep the Trident nuclear deterrent.Oh. That makes sense for why.
That, and he is carrying on a tradition started a few Prime Ministers back involving blatant lies about WMD's in the run up to wars as a
Post by: nenjin on April 04, 2013, 05:45:58 pm
Still, of all the people I'd want involved in this, anon is among the last. The last thing a young, possibly unstable dictator needs is to be trolled by the internet in his own backyard.
Post by: Owlbread on April 04, 2013, 05:46:09 pm
Why in the world would Mr. Cameron lie about th...QuoteThe Prime Minister said the threat from North Korea showed that Britain needs to keep the Trident nuclear deterrent.Oh. That makes sense for why.
In trying to scare Scots into rejecting independence and keeping trident (that was the purpose of his speech), he's managed to overstep the mark and become the first European leader to openly declare that North Korea can attack a European country with nukes.
Post by: Culise on April 04, 2013, 07:04:55 pm
Look on the bright side. If electronic infrastructure is important to their ballistic missile system and Anon has messed that up, they've put that much more distance between now and a possible nuclear strike. Although their CnC systems are probably ancient.To be fair, if their electronic infrastructure controlling their nuclear deterrent actually was connected to the Internet, they rather deserve to have it taken out by hackers half a world away. :)
Still, of all the people I'd want involved in this, anon is among the last. The last thing a young, possibly unstable dictator needs is to be trolled by the internet in his own backyard.
Post by: Max White on April 04, 2013, 07:08:58 pm
And now Anonymous is involved. (http://readwrite.com/2013/04/04/anonymous-hacks-official-north-korean-twitter-account)Bad move anon.
Some nutter is holding a gun to a hostages head, you don't produce pornography of the nutters mother.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 04, 2013, 07:12:00 pm
In trying to scare Scots into rejecting independence and keeping trident (that was the purpose of his speech), he's managed to overstep the mark and become the first European leader to openly declare that North Korea can attack a European country with nukes.
I'd just like to state for the record that the US is actually closer than the UK is to Korea. So anyone who believes Mr. Fearmonger has to believe NK has the ability to nuke, let's say, Los Angeles.
Post by: misko27 on April 04, 2013, 07:38:25 pm
Anyway, do you guys think that if enough people mock Korea, they might go through with it?
Post by: Flying Dice on April 04, 2013, 07:52:27 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2013, 12:27:35 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 05, 2013, 12:28:29 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 05, 2013, 03:54:41 am
BTW: I am earwormed by "No motherland without you" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBWHzgKQnhI) in the last few days. Does anyone else have the same problem?
Post by: Max White on April 05, 2013, 04:31:22 am
BTW: I am earwormed by "No motherland without you" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBWHzgKQnhI) in the last few days. Does anyone else have the same problem?son of a bitch...
Anyway, bioweapons are interesting, because it depends on what you mean. The oldest form of bioweapons involved flinging a plague corpse over a wall during a siege and watching disease spread through the population.
These days infecting a population with an already existing pathogen is a much more feasible option than a home grown variant, the problem comes in mass delivery.
As for developing their own super virus... Well I feel pretty safe on that front.
Edit: Typo:
Quote
These days infecting a population with an already existing pathogen is a much more feasible option than a home grown variant, the problem comes in ass delivery.hehehe, viral ass delivery.
Post by: Sheb on April 05, 2013, 04:40:51 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 06:46:36 am
I had grudgingly started to respect anonymous over the past few years. In one sentence I am now convinced that I should never make the mistake of respecting them again.3edgy5me
When nukes are involved that may not be the case.And please wait here while I laugh at my own country.
And now for a few words from our wonderful Prime Minister.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9972193/Cameron-fact-that-North-Korea-has-technology-for-nuclear-strike-against-the-UK.html
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Post by: Spaghetti7 on April 05, 2013, 06:51:45 am
An extract:
"It said that the North Korean government would be unable to guarantee the safety of embassies and international organisations in the country in the event of conflict from April 10."
Hmm.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 06:55:16 am
Whelp, these are interesting times.
Post by: Max White on April 05, 2013, 07:07:04 am
Kicking out Russia and the UK might be because they are least trusted.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 07:22:34 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 05, 2013, 07:31:46 am
My father is actually planning on going to a business meeting in Seoul at the end of May. I think we're just going to wait and see.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 05, 2013, 07:36:54 am
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 07:57:44 am
They're not going to do jackshit. It's just posturing, like the "US attack map" they "accidentally" displayed behind Kim jr a few days back. They're the international equivalent of a pufferfish.I wish I could agree. I feel like this started as a routine saber-rattling exercise but has mushroomed into something far nastier. I think there has been some dramatic miscalculation all around and now Kim is too heavily invested in this to back down without some kind of concession by the West to show for it. And the Western powers (and China, for that matter) are in NO mood to reward bad behavior with any more concessions.
It's like a kid who's used to throwing a tantrum every now and then to get a lollipop. Suddenly, the parents put their foot down and the kid has to decide whether to straighten up or throw a bigger tantrum. North Korea is in full-bore "punching the walls, holding-my-breath-till-I-turn-blue" mode now.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 05, 2013, 08:45:41 am
BTW: I am earwormed by "No motherland without you" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBWHzgKQnhI) in the last few days. Does anyone else have the same problem?
I haven't got problems with neither the synthpop version nor the military orchestra version.
This is the only North Korean song that managed to get stuck in my head at least once. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epps8m8648w)
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 10:07:27 am
Post by: Descan on April 05, 2013, 10:11:19 am
NO ONE hates Canada!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 05, 2013, 10:25:22 am
I guess you could easily make something nasty by taking, say, plague and breeding a strain that resist to every single antibiotics in the market. No need for fancy genetic engineering here.Not a very effective way to go about it. Irresponsible antibiotic usage by the entire world for several decades has only rendered a handful of antibiotics ineffective. You'd have to go a long way in growing cultures to evolve drug-resistance, and even then you'd need a lot of it to make that strain prevalent.
And even once you've finished all of that, which would take several years, you're back to the problem of dispersal.
Post by: lordcooper on April 05, 2013, 10:28:53 am
>the rocket assplode
>the plague gets scattered everywhere
>DPRK has a vaccine
>Kim lives
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2013, 10:35:25 am
Oh, and the reason bioterrorism hasn't been a succes is that bioweapons are WMDS. They need to deployed en masse to overwhelm healthcare and be effective.
Post by: lordcooper on April 05, 2013, 10:47:36 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 10:49:37 am
2. Feed ticks prisoners.
3. Release ticks.
4. ???
5. Everywhere plague.
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 10:52:28 am
NOT HELPING, MOTHER NATURE >:(
Also, I'm a bit more appreciative of Anon's little prank, now that it was pointed out to me that the "Kim Jong Un as a pig" thing was actually a character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Bajie) from the Monkey King stories. It's actually a far subtler dig at him, and one which Chinese, Korean and Japanese viewers would get.
Apparently public opinion of Kim Jon Un is pretty damn low on the streets in China. They're calling him "Zhifang San", or "Fatty the Third" (being the third of the Kim dynasty in N. Korea)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 05, 2013, 10:55:37 am
Post by: Lagslayer on April 05, 2013, 10:59:44 am
Since when can a nuclear test cause a 6.2? Much less from North Korea-level nukes.I'm pretty sure it can feel like a 10.0 or more near ground zero, at least until you get vaporized. Nuclear explosions can be pretty earth-shatteringly violent.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2013, 11:03:37 am
I am actually a little upset that you thought I was being serious then.I was not talking to you.
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 11:07:25 am
Ummmm...no. Richter scale measurements aren't a subjective thing.Since when can a nuclear test cause a 6.2? Much less from North Korea-level nukes.I'm pretty sure it can feel like a 10.0 or more near ground zero, at least until you get vaporized. Nuclear explosions can be pretty earth-shatteringly violent.
The NK test in 2009 produced a seismic event somewhere in the range of 4.7-5.3 magnitude.
Tsar Bomba produced a 5.1-5.2 seismic event, and that was from an airburst. Projections are that an underground detonation would have released energy sufficient to register as an 8.1 magnitude event.
So yeah, a 6.2 could indicate a nuke blast, though probably one well beyond NK's current capabilities.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 05, 2013, 11:32:10 am
Minute magnitude is the scale we'd be using for general seismic events. /nitpick
Post by: Skyrunner on April 05, 2013, 12:02:59 pm
Also, 6.2 magnitude seismic event in Russian Far East, very close to North Korean border. USGS and other sources have confirmed that it's too deep to be a nuclear test, but still....Oooh, I know his Korean name XD
NOT HELPING, MOTHER NATURE >:(
Also, I'm a bit more appreciative of Anon's little prank, now that it was pointed out to me that the "Kim Jong Un as a pig" thing was actually a character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Bajie) from the Monkey King stories. It's actually a far subtler dig at him, and one which Chinese, Korean and Japanese viewers would get.
Apparently public opinion of Kim Jon Un is pretty damn low on the streets in China. They're calling him "Zhifang San", or "Fatty the Third" (being the third of the Kim dynasty in N. Korea)
Post by: Pnx on April 05, 2013, 12:19:07 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on April 05, 2013, 12:32:23 pm
Please enlighten us with this informationAlso, 6.2 magnitude seismic event in Russian Far East, very close to North Korean border. USGS and other sources have confirmed that it's too deep to be a nuclear test, but still....Oooh, I know his Korean name XD
NOT HELPING, MOTHER NATURE >:(
Also, I'm a bit more appreciative of Anon's little prank, now that it was pointed out to me that the "Kim Jong Un as a pig" thing was actually a character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Bajie) from the Monkey King stories. It's actually a far subtler dig at him, and one which Chinese, Korean and Japanese viewers would get.
Apparently public opinion of Kim Jon Un is pretty damn low on the streets in China. They're calling him "Zhifang San", or "Fatty the Third" (being the third of the Kim dynasty in N. Korea)
Post by: Skyrunner on April 05, 2013, 12:47:33 pm
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 12:50:49 pm
It's right there in the Wiki article, 저팔계.Not everybody speaks Box. xD
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 05, 2013, 12:51:38 pm
...It's just a box.It's right there in the Wiki article, 저팔계.Not everybody speaks Box. xD
Post by: kaijyuu on April 05, 2013, 12:51:53 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 05, 2013, 12:53:12 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on April 05, 2013, 12:54:08 pm
/me declares war and waves nukes around
I'll have to kill you all for insulting the holy Box. D:<
Somewhat more relevant: I heard that someone escaped to North Korea by stealing a fisherman's boat and sailing straight across the NLL. Says something about the poor readiness of SK's navy >_> He escaped from NK previously, leading me to believe he was actually a spy.
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 01:25:16 pm
Somewhat more relevant: I heard that someone escaped to North Korea by stealing a fisherman's boat and sailing straight across the NLL. Says something about the poor readiness of SK's navy >_> He escaped from NK previously, leading me to believe he was actually a spy.Yeah, I saw something about that as well (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/04/04/north_korean_defector_steals_fishing_boat_despite_military_presence_to_make_fourth_dash_back_to_the_north.html). Major egg on the collective faces of the SK security forces.
"Our border is secure! We have eyes everywhere! No one can get through, not even....that.....guy in the 9-ton fishing trawler....SHIT."
Post by: MrWillsauce on April 05, 2013, 01:58:41 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2013, 02:01:37 pm
Oh, and is'nt this the 4th time he did this
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 05, 2013, 02:21:54 pm
Post by: Megaman on April 05, 2013, 02:36:21 pm
(Performed by Kim Jong-Un)
Now I want to learn Korean just so I see what the hell this cartoon is about
Post by: RedKing on April 05, 2013, 02:55:00 pm
Also, my built-in Windows Live Search translator says the boxes mean "lower arm system". ???
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 03:03:30 pm
So I guess this is their new national anthem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-h14kdVvg)Kim Jong-Un #Baconswag
(Performed by Kim Jong-Un)
Now I want to learn Korean just so I see what the hell this cartoon is about
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 05, 2013, 03:19:52 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 05, 2013, 03:22:48 pm
Why hasn't anyone mentioned this yet? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22045245)
We actually did, a while ago. It's hidden in one of the posts.
Post by: Dutchling on April 05, 2013, 03:23:22 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 05, 2013, 04:02:06 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 05, 2013, 04:02:15 pm
Why hasn't anyone mentioned this yet? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22045245)
Aaand now they're telling us to "evacuate" our embassies (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9973577/North-Korea-missile-threat-latest-live.html).FORUMITES KNOW ALL
An extract:
"It said that the North Korean government would be unable to guarantee the safety of embassies and international organisations in the country in the event of conflict from April 10."
Hmm.
SEE ALL
FORGET ALL
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 05, 2013, 04:34:11 pm
honest question
Post by: Whitefoxsniper on April 05, 2013, 08:09:42 pm
Can only hope that NK are doing their standard insane nuclear stick waving, and that they aren't actually planning to attack anyone.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on April 05, 2013, 09:13:11 pm
is it just me or are the kims obsessed with the number nine
honest question
HERMAN CAIN IS IN CAHOOTS WITH THEM!
Post by: Hubris Incalculable on April 06, 2013, 01:20:56 am
What the hell does North Korea have against Canada? D:
Shitty missile guidance
If they manage to get a missile into the air, anyway.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 06, 2013, 02:12:14 am
is it just me or are the kims obsessed with the number nine
honest question
HERMAN CAIN IS IN CAHOOTS WITH THEM!
Wait, wait. To the WMG thread!
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 06, 2013, 04:48:15 pm
Post by: Megaman on April 06, 2013, 04:49:10 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 06, 2013, 04:57:59 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 06, 2013, 05:10:13 pm
is it just me or are the kims obsessed with the number nine
honest question
They're all Cirno in disguise.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 06, 2013, 07:53:43 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 07, 2013, 08:32:18 am
So the British government calls North Korea's actions "paranoid rhetoric" and urges for calm, yet just last week our Prime Minister claimed they could hit as far as Britain with nukes - therefore we need to renew our enormously overblown, unnecessary nuclear defence system. Pot, kettle, black.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 07, 2013, 08:56:48 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/07/william-hague-urges-calm-northkoreaI read about it, Cameron didn't say NK could hit Britain with nukes, he even specified so far they could hit as far as Alaska and that's about it. What he said was they were developing meessiales that could one day hit the UK, therefore the Trident needs an updating.
So the British government calls North Korea's actions "paranoid rhetoric" and urges for calm, yet just last week our Prime Minister claimed they could hit as far as Britain with nukes - therefore we need to renew our enormously overblown, unnecessary nuclear defence system. Pot, kettle, black.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 07, 2013, 09:16:16 am
Post by: Gukag on April 07, 2013, 10:38:04 am
Post by: werty892 on April 07, 2013, 01:17:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f37K0hIv3zkYes.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 07, 2013, 01:38:18 pm
This pleases me of my own free will.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f37K0hIv3zkYes.
Post by: freeformschooler on April 07, 2013, 01:45:54 pm
This pleases me of my own free will.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f37K0hIv3zkYes.
Could not possibly be more perfect.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 07, 2013, 02:44:10 pm
I find it too blatant even by blatant parody standards.Could not possibly be more perfect.This pleases me of my own free will.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f37K0hIv3zkYes.
Post by: freeformschooler on April 07, 2013, 02:46:43 pm
Post by: Megaman on April 07, 2013, 03:37:46 pm
Edit: DID I SAY STUPID? I MEANT EXCELLENT. ALL HAIL GREAT LEADER KIM JONG UN
Post by: Lagslayer on April 07, 2013, 04:22:31 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 07, 2013, 07:33:53 pm
A bit to blatantly stupid for my tastes.
Edit: DID I SAY STUPID? I MEANT EXCELLENT. ALL HAIL GREAT LEADER KIM JONG UN
It's collegehumor, that goes without saying. :P
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 08, 2013, 01:59:55 am
An interesting blog about North Korean IT advancements and the Internet activity of the North Korean government. (http://northkoreatech.org)
Post by: Xantalos on April 08, 2013, 04:00:16 am
There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 08, 2013, 05:42:48 am
Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Post by: tryrar on April 08, 2013, 05:58:37 am
Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
....Goddammit I need to learn Russian now
Post by: Xantalos on April 08, 2013, 06:00:53 am
It has an english version.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
....Goddammit I need to learn Russian now
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 08, 2013, 06:28:35 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 08, 2013, 07:12:48 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 08, 2013, 07:48:31 am
I'm so proud I can actually understand most of that comic now with the little Russian I know.
"What's that? Bomb on a bus? It's nothing new".
Actually, that line ("Бомба в автобусе? Это что-то новое.") means "A bomb on a bus? That's something new."
Post by: Owlbread on April 08, 2013, 08:49:52 am
Actually, that line ("Бомба в автобусе? Это что-то новое.") means "A bomb on a bus? That's something new."
God damnit.
Post by: scriver on April 08, 2013, 11:02:54 am
-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 08, 2013, 11:03:58 am
-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 08, 2013, 11:08:01 am
The shame.-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on April 08, 2013, 11:27:12 am
Disgrace. (http://youtu.be/HrMRmEeCfJM?t=1m20s)The shame.-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: Lagslayer on April 08, 2013, 11:29:33 am
I knew what it was going to be before I clicked the link.Disgrace. (http://youtu.be/HrMRmEeCfJM?t=1m20s)The shame.-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: Sirus on April 08, 2013, 11:31:57 am
Same. And I only saw that movie once, at least eight years ago.I knew what it was going to be before I clicked the link.Disgrace. (http://youtu.be/HrMRmEeCfJM?t=1m20s)The shame.-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on April 08, 2013, 11:34:24 am
I'm proud of you guys. ;DSame. And I only saw that movie once, at least eight years ago.I knew what it was going to be before I clicked the link.Disgrace. (http://youtu.be/HrMRmEeCfJM?t=1m20s)The shame.-snip, failed.-
You can try to hide your shame all you want... But we know.
We know.
Dat mistranslated negative.
Post by: Owlbread on April 08, 2013, 02:18:21 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 08, 2013, 02:32:40 pm
The elephants were in my head before I even saw the words.The shame.Disgrace. (http://youtu.be/HrMRmEeCfJM?t=1m20s)
There is no escape from the disgrace. My credibility is in tatters.ITT: EXILE
Post by: Owlbread on April 08, 2013, 02:41:46 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 08, 2013, 03:25:04 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 08, 2013, 03:31:13 pm
The bucket zombies are the UN. I think.The bucket zombies are these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Blue_Buckets).
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 09, 2013, 12:07:49 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 09, 2013, 01:09:10 am
Post by: IronyOwl on April 09, 2013, 04:28:15 am
There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Post by: misko27 on April 09, 2013, 06:21:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Under this definition, North Korea is passed the "Don't rock the boat" threshold, and is quite possibly about to pass the "Nuclear war is unthinkable" threshold. Depending on their next actions, a limited conventional war is only a few steps of escalation from where we are, which is approximately, ehh, 6 or 5. Maybe even seven. Next step would be harrasing violence or military moves, followed by some form of ultimate diplomatic break or super ready status (this is unclear due to their bellicose general statements what is actually the real deal).
Note: This i not meant to be a guideline of all crises, but instead a ladder for methodology and planning. As such, they can skip a few rungs on the ladder.
Also, I think I might write a opinion article to share with you guys. Simply because I spend an awful lot of time thinking about war, and it might as well be productive time.
Post by: Max White on April 09, 2013, 06:25:52 am
Anyway, tomorrow is the tenth. Time for nothing to happen.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 09, 2013, 09:06:32 am
There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.
I've never expected mahjong games to be so epic.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 09, 2013, 10:31:11 am
If you are willing to write, I am willing to read.That.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 09, 2013, 10:45:03 am
Thirded. The ladder is a very interesting bit of information, but without context, it seems like I'm missing quite a bit.If you are willing to write, I am willing to read.That.
Post by: Ameablable on April 09, 2013, 02:55:32 pm
fourthed.Thirded. The ladder is a very interesting bit of information, but without context, it seems like I'm missing quite a bit.If you are willing to write, I am willing to read.That.
OH SNAP! you gotta write it now!
Post by: RedKing on April 09, 2013, 03:21:52 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 09, 2013, 07:38:36 pm
I've been reading it. I'm currently at the part with the pope.There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Post by: Sirus on April 09, 2013, 07:44:08 pm
It gets crazier. MUCH crazier.I've been reading it. I'm currently at the part with the pope.There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 09, 2013, 08:40:26 pm
There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I know how I'm spending WW3 [if April 10th is launch date].
Post by: Sirus on April 09, 2013, 08:45:49 pm
Funny you should mention that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06o5NbF1n6E)There's also one about the Japanese Prime Minister. (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/50931/mudazumo-naki-kaikaku_v1_ch1_by_red-hawk-scans) Putin shows up as well, naturally.Fun fact: it exists (in webcomic form). (http://superputin.ru/superputin1.html)There's no need to be afraid. It's not like he's Putin or anything.We need an Adventures of Putin series now.The first shot makes me laugh so hard. This would be an amazing FLCL-like Anime.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I know how I'm spending WW3 [if April 10th is launch date].
Yes, an anime exists. It's a slightly different storyline though.
EDIT: Found the first episode. The rest is up to you :P (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbq537_the-legend-of-koizumi-episode-1-eng_shortfilms#.UWTFON6zntQ)
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 09, 2013, 09:01:38 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 09, 2013, 09:05:47 pm
Funny you should mention that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06o5NbF1n6E)
Mahjong has never been more incredible.
Post by: PanH on April 09, 2013, 09:27:38 pm
... mahjong callouses. I've seen everything now.What about depleted uranium majhong tiles ?
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 09, 2013, 09:53:30 pm
North Korea closes Chinese Border to tourists. (http://www.theage.com.au/world/north-korea-closes-china-border-to-tourists-20130410-2hkpv.html)
This is really starting to stop seeming like a bluff; shutting down both Kaesong and the tourist industry, they've pretty much killed what little foreign trade they actually have. That seems counterproductive if you're trying to bluff for greater financial aid.
More then ever, it looks like the littlest Kim is doing this for his military chops, and that way won't end well for him; either he declares war and NK goes poof, or he backs down, and just the Kim dynasty goes up in smoke.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 09, 2013, 10:27:13 pm
Or anyone, for that matter?
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 09, 2013, 10:40:44 pm
We are so fucked. Y'all don't think they could actually nuke the States, could they?
Or anyone, for that matter?
Maybe S.K. Depends on how good they are at smuggling large, radioactive objects across a heavily patrolled military border.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 09, 2013, 10:43:10 pm
We are so fucked. Y'all don't think they could actually nuke the States, could they?
Or anyone, for that matter?
Maybe S.K. Depends on how good they are at smuggling large, radioactive objects across a heavily patrolled military border.
That's a dirty bomb, which ain't quite the same thing. If I've got you right.
Post by: Max White on April 09, 2013, 10:45:50 pm
I mean it isn't as serious as some people have been claiming, like the sudden destruction of the civilized world, but still.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 09, 2013, 10:47:01 pm
Post by: freeformschooler on April 09, 2013, 11:00:14 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on April 09, 2013, 11:04:26 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 09, 2013, 11:18:47 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 09, 2013, 11:20:33 pm
North Korea was just feigning incompetence this whole time! We're doomed!Don't worry. Obama and the zombie of Chairman Mao will defeat Kim in a mahjong match and the world will be at (relative) peace once more.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 09, 2013, 11:27:00 pm
North Korea was just feigning incompetence this whole time! We're doomed!
Well, you can sometimes get more of what you want by acting so irrationally that nobody will dare to see what happens if your bluff is called, as you should well know were you ever a four-year-old child. The other problem, of course, is that nobody actually knows what North Korea wants.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 09, 2013, 11:29:37 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 09, 2013, 11:30:16 pm
You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)
The anti-WWII has begun?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 09, 2013, 11:30:43 pm
-w-
Post by: Sirus on April 09, 2013, 11:34:22 pm
You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)Am I the only one who can't see the webpage?
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 09, 2013, 11:34:40 pm
That's a dirty bomb, which ain't quite the same thing. If I've got you right.
No, a dirty bomb is a convential explosive surrounded by radioactive matter (e.g. nuclear waste). It's only real difference from a conventional bomb is that uninformed people are more likely to panic (seriously, as a fallout dispersal technique, it's a joke).
I am referring instead to them packing one of their nukes (a large, radioactive object) onto a truck, boat, etc. and taking it across the border into Seoul, as said nukes are most likely too large to be mounted on a missile.
Post by: Max White on April 09, 2013, 11:41:46 pm
You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)It is like seeing those kids from highschool that you disliked growing up into responsible adults...
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 09, 2013, 11:46:27 pm
And North Korea is that one guy throwing cats at everyone.You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)It is like seeing those kids from highschool that you disliked growing up into responsible adults...
Post by: Max White on April 09, 2013, 11:49:59 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 09, 2013, 11:55:48 pm
Well look at that!You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)It is like seeing those kids from highschool that you disliked growing up into responsible adults...
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 09, 2013, 11:57:12 pm
Well he is certainly threatening to... Not even sure if he actually owns any cats.Obese opossums that resemble cats when viewed at a certain angle.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 10, 2013, 12:29:23 am
I am referring instead to them packing one of their nukes (a large, radioactive object) onto a truck, boat, etc. and taking it across the border into Seoul, as said nukes are most likely too large to be mounted on a missile.I don't think North Korea will nuke Seoul. According to North Korean propaganda, they're going to liberate South Korea from American oppressors and reunify the country. Destroying the new capital would be completely pointless. How would they explain it to South Koreans? "We've transformed Seoul into a petrified radioactive crater in order to weed out the hiding Americans"?
(unless Kim Jong-un's goal is to raise his own highscore in Hell by killing as much people as possible)
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 10, 2013, 01:53:06 am
Nuking S.K. would be stupid for the reasons you described, and nuking China... well, even brass balls as large as Jong Un would need wouldn't save them from the shit that would follow.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 10, 2013, 02:52:36 am
To clarify, a single nuke.
Post by: Another on April 10, 2013, 05:55:31 am
Official NK propaganda states that ongoing US-SK military drills pose a threat to NK and they are responding to that.
If NK warns all foreign embassies to evacuate from Pyongyang and no one actually bothers to evacuate - does it not send a clear signal to NK that Pyongyang will not be bombed? It can be interpreted differently but in the optimistic "paranoid but not aggressive-suicidal" NK case it could mean to them that they will not be attacked in the near future and could ease tensions a bit.
Post by: Descan on April 10, 2013, 05:57:43 am
If anything, they'd take it as a slight. "They disrespect us so much that they do not heed our warning?!" kind of deal.
Post by: RedKing on April 10, 2013, 07:41:27 am
They said South Korea should evacuate of foreigners, not North Korea, and definitely not Pyongyang.Well, no...they actually did tell a number of countries to evacuate their embassies in Pyongyang because they "couldn't guarantee the safety of embassy staff after April 10". Then a few days later they told foreigners to leave South Korea. Y'know, because they're a Good Guy Greg that way.
If anything, they'd take it as a slight. "They disrespect us so much that they do not heed our warning?!" kind of deal.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 10, 2013, 08:29:33 am
Post by: Max White on April 10, 2013, 08:33:18 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 10, 2013, 09:00:09 am
Post by: darkrider2 on April 10, 2013, 09:42:37 am
Don't worry, SKs major source of finance is winnings from starcraft tournaments. As long as the internet stays up, SK will prosper.
They're going to nuke the internet! We must stop them!
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 10, 2013, 09:56:00 am
You heard me. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/germany-gives-japan-its-backing-as-n-korea-tensions-rise)Aw crud, I was hoping we'd stay neutral.
Post by: mainiac on April 10, 2013, 10:31:32 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 10, 2013, 10:50:26 am
Post by: Vactor on April 10, 2013, 10:54:04 am
I'm not afraid of North Korea, it's just that this means that Germany does not value staying neutral, which would make it a target if it would eventually ally itself against any future enemy that actually has long-range missiles.
Germany isn't, and hasn't been a neutral state, its a member of NATO.
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 10, 2013, 11:16:30 am
Well, the NATO is so powerful that any war where the whole NATO alliance is required would result in global destruction either way, so it won't really happen (assuming that no world leaders get hooked on quantum immortality). What bothers me more is that Germany just up and went "Oh, so there's a conflict really far away? Let's just openly declare alliance to one side without really doing anything to help, so the other side has more reason to hate specifically us now."I'm not afraid of North Korea, it's just that this means that Germany does not value staying neutral, which would make it a target if it would eventually ally itself against any future enemy that actually has long-range missiles.
Germany isn't, and hasn't been a neutral state, its a member of NATO.
Post by: Neyvn on April 10, 2013, 11:19:23 am
"It takes many hands to build Peace. But one finger to bring War..."
Post by: Vactor on April 10, 2013, 11:38:20 am
Well, the NATO is so powerful that any war where the whole NATO alliance is required would result in global destruction either way, so it won't really happen (assuming that no world leaders get hooked on quantum immortality). What bothers me more is that Germany just up and went "Oh, so there's a conflict really far away? Let's just openly declare alliance to one side without really doing anything to help, so the other side has more reason to hate specifically us now."I'm not afraid of North Korea, it's just that this means that Germany does not value staying neutral, which would make it a target if it would eventually ally itself against any future enemy that actually has long-range missiles.
Germany isn't, and hasn't been a neutral state, its a member of NATO.
I don't think you have much to worry about, seeing as Germany's condemnations are coming in slightly after Fidel Castro's. Their statement is about as controversial in the global community as saying you don't mind if people eat food.
Also, NK's threats are against the US, a NATO member, so Germany is already openly part of an alliance to one side.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 10, 2013, 11:56:53 am
"Well, at least we don't have to worry about the recession anymore. The North-Korea nuke guy's going to solve it for us"
Post by: Fniff on April 10, 2013, 11:58:50 am
Post by: Ameablable on April 10, 2013, 02:25:11 pm
guys i think North Korea lied to us.
Post by: Sirus on April 10, 2013, 02:26:24 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 10, 2013, 02:27:38 pm
Well, that's a relief.yea.
although a third arm does sound pretty cool.....
Post by: Fniff on April 10, 2013, 02:34:01 pm
Colonel: "They are all defeated, glorious leader. I learned from the colonel in charge of our nuclear arsenal. The wind is blowing south thus the radiation shall not harm your people. You would obviously by spared by your mythic powers either way."
Kim: "Cool! Break out the wine, let's get this party started!"
A day earlier, in the Glorious North Korea Nuclear Revenge Silo
Colonel: "What do you mean the nukes just disappeared?!"
Technician: "They may have fallen apart."
Colonel: "In mid-air!?"
Technician: "Boss, you asked for a missile that was really, really cheap and could be made in a day. You didn't ask for one that would work."
Colonel: "Dammit, dammit! How can I explain this... Oh hey... I have an idea!"
Post by: Ameablable on April 10, 2013, 02:35:59 pm
Kim: "Huh. Odd lack of response from South Korea and the United States."thats funny.
Colonel: "They are all defeated, glorious leader. I learned from the colonel in charge of our nuclear arsenal. The wind is blowing south thus the radiation shall not harm your people. You would obviously by spared by your mythic powers either way."
Kim: "Cool! Break out the wine, let's get this party started!"
A day earlier, in the Glorious North Korea Nuclear Revenge Silo
Colonel: "What do you mean the nukes just disappeared?!"
Technician: "They may have fallen apart."
Colonel: "In mid-air!?"
Technician: "Boss, you asked for a missile that was really, really cheap and could be made in a day. You didn't ask for one that would work."
Colonel: "Dammit, dammit! How can I explain this... Oh hey... I have an idea!"
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 10, 2013, 02:36:06 pm
Post by: Fniff on April 10, 2013, 02:40:32 pm
Post by: shadenight123 on April 10, 2013, 02:41:40 pm
Nobody would see that coming.
The Great Leader will soon conquer Stalingrad.
Post by: Ameablable on April 10, 2013, 02:43:59 pm
I think a source for this should be required for a name-change...i agree. and "second korean war"?
the korean war never ended. it was just at an armistice
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 10, 2013, 02:47:04 pm
I think a source for this should be required for a name-change...I saw it around before, but the first link that I was able to find was from fox
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/04/10/south-korea-says-north-korea-ready-to-test-missile-any-day/
Quote
South Korea's foreign minister told lawmakers Wednesday that the prospect of a North Korean missile launch is "considerably high," as Pyongyang prepared to mark the April 15 birthday of its founder, historically a time when it seeks to draw the world's attention with dramatic displays of military power.
Post by: Sirus on April 10, 2013, 02:48:04 pm
Post by: Fniff on April 10, 2013, 02:48:48 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 10, 2013, 02:51:22 pm
What do you think this is, a democracy?I think a source for this should be required for a name-change...i agree. and "second korean war"?
the korean war never ended. it was just an armistice
Post by: Ameablable on April 10, 2013, 02:53:46 pm
What do you think this is, a democracy?I think a source for this should be required for a name-change...i agree. and "second korean war"?
the korean war never ended. it was just an armistice
No i rather like to think of this world as a dictatorship because it has the word tator
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 10, 2013, 03:02:17 pm
No offense, but Fox News isn't always a reliable source :/Yeah, I saw it on other sites as well, but I'm disinclined to keep googling for more sources when they'll prolly say the same :p.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 10, 2013, 03:04:33 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on April 10, 2013, 03:30:01 pm
It is clear: the great mind of the noble leader has planned to unnerve everyone, while he sends the true might of his armies North, to conquer Russia.They be Popsicles before they reach in quarter of Siberia, Mother Russia's cold shoulder isn't to be trifled with!
Nobody would see that coming.
The Great Leader will soon conquer Stalingrad.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 10, 2013, 03:35:18 pm
Why hasn't North Korea lifted itself from the ocean with gigantic robot legs to fight mecha-Japan yet? Un lied!
I'd wager that kimmy intends to develop a space program just to get the hell off this rock before everyone starts throwing grenades at his sorry ass. :P
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 10, 2013, 04:24:12 pm
It is clear: the great mind of the noble leader has planned to unnerve everyone, while he sends the true might of his armies North, to conquer Russia.They be Popsicles before they reach in quarter of Siberia, Mother Russia's cold shoulder isn't to be trifled with!
Nobody would see that coming.
The Great Leader will soon conquer Stalingrad.
Why hasn't North Korea lifted itself from the ocean with gigantic robot legs to fight mecha-Japan yet? Un lied!If this is going where I think it's going, we're gonna be seeing Hetalia crossed over with a Mecha anime.
Post by: Ameablable on April 11, 2013, 12:37:46 pm
This just allows other countries like 'Murica and Japanland to reinforce its antinuke system.
either strike or stop saying your going to
Post by: Mech#4 on April 11, 2013, 12:42:58 pm
NK is really dumb. they keep saying they are gonna strike but they don't.
This just allows other countries like 'Murica and Japanland to reinforce its antinuke system.
either strike or stop saying your going to
My understanding would be they can't really use their nuclear warhead because if they did, well... they wouldn't have it anymore and would have gained some rather angry foes.
I would guess that most countries that try and gain nuclear weapons do so primarily to protect themselves from the countries that already have them. Even footing and all that.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 11, 2013, 12:43:47 pm
NK is really dumb. they keep saying they are gonna strike but they don't.
This just allows other countries like 'Murica and Japanland to reinforce its antinuke system.
either strike or stop saying your going to
Why would they do that? They're using the same system they've used for the past 50 years: Make a bunch of threats, act stupid and crazy, get aid from the rest of the world to quiet down and go away for a while. The ruling powers stay in control with plenty of luxuries to keep them happy and by appearing crazy enough to actually do something dumb like launch a nuke they keep the stronger powers around them from invading and toppling the regime.
They are not stupid. They're just playing a different game than the rest of the world.
Post by: tahujdt on April 11, 2013, 01:34:03 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 11, 2013, 02:06:57 pm
It would ultimately be better for them if they joined an EU-style organization, so that way if they get in financial trouble other countries willCould you name any country that would willingly collaborate with NK?stealconfiscateappropriateredistribute weath from their successful citizens so it can go down a hole.
Post by: nenjin on April 11, 2013, 02:10:38 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 11, 2013, 02:12:33 pm
errr.... Cuba? maybe?It would ultimately be better for them if they joined an EU-style organization, so that way if they get in financial trouble other countries willCould you name any country that would willingly collaborate with NK?stealconfiscateappropriateredistribute weath from their successful citizens so it can go down a hole.
Post by: Fniff on April 11, 2013, 02:16:35 pm
Post by: andrea on April 11, 2013, 02:18:08 pm
I doubt they are going to get that close to NK.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 11, 2013, 02:19:36 pm
Every time I read the CNN article about NK raising and lowering a missile, all I can think of is penis references. Which really, if you view this event from that context, is all it really is. Comparing thermonuclear wangs.
I think the international media will alarmingly report on every action of the North Korean army soon.
"South Korean spy satellites report that guards at the North Korean missile test site are drinking coffee! The United States has responded to this latest North Korean threat by relocating several Aegis cruisers to the Yellow Sea!"
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 11, 2013, 02:24:33 pm
It's not coffee. It's boiled snow.Every time I read the CNN article about NK raising and lowering a missile, all I can think of is penis references. Which really, if you view this event from that context, is all it really is. Comparing thermonuclear wangs.
I think the international media will alarmingly report on every action of the North Korean army soon.
"South Korean spy satellites report that guards at the North Korean missile test site are drinking coffee! The United States has responded to this latest North Korean threat by relocating several Aegis cruisers to the Yellow Sea!"
Post by: Fniff on April 11, 2013, 02:28:42 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 11, 2013, 02:38:27 pm
"North Korean defectors reported to DailyNK that guards at the North Korean missile test site have to drink boiled snow! Is famine returning to North Korea?"It's not coffee. It's boiled snow.Every time I read the CNN article about NK raising and lowering a missile, all I can think of is penis references. Which really, if you view this event from that context, is all it really is. Comparing thermonuclear wangs.
I think the international media will alarmingly report on every action of the North Korean army soon.
"South Korean spy satellites report that guards at the North Korean missile test site are drinking coffee! The United States has responded to this latest North Korean threat by relocating several Aegis cruisers to the Yellow Sea!"
On a completely unrelated note, my mind was recently blown by this old North Korean song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iEqc6H4RXos)
Post by: Haspen on April 11, 2013, 02:47:39 pm
On a completely unrelated note, my mind was recently blown by this old North Korean song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iEqc6H4RXos)
...
...
Lightening strikes and he arrives~
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 11, 2013, 02:51:42 pm
The General uses warp!On a completely unrelated note, my mind was recently blown by this old North Korean song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iEqc6H4RXos)Lightening strikes and he arrives~
Post by: Haspen on April 11, 2013, 02:52:30 pm
Fuck :I
EDIT: Y U DID THISSSS
Post by: tahujdt on April 11, 2013, 02:54:21 pm
Cuba, unlike NK, has decent public relations.I doubt Michael Moore counts as decent public relations.
I doubt they are going to get that close to NK.
Post by: Sheb on April 11, 2013, 03:06:12 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on April 11, 2013, 03:19:44 pm
It would ultimately be better for them if they joined an EU-style organization, so that way if they get in financial trouble other countries willit doesn't really work like thatstealconfiscateappropriateredistribute weath from their successful citizens so it can go down a hole.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 11, 2013, 03:20:53 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 11, 2013, 07:01:58 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 11, 2013, 07:04:25 pm
Parcheesi, anyone?
Post by: werty892 on April 11, 2013, 07:23:04 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 11, 2013, 07:41:53 pm
Post by: werty892 on April 11, 2013, 08:00:53 pm
Dear General prefers Global Thermonuclear War.
No, he prefers a dance off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPOD5f6wRw4).
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 11, 2013, 08:18:57 pm
How is this not somewhat panicking?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 11, 2013, 08:21:40 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 11, 2013, 08:33:02 pm
"North Korea may be able to deliver nuke."Physically carrying it to the target counts as delivery.
How is this not somewhat panicking?
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 11, 2013, 08:39:26 pm
Quote from: From the CNN article linked earlier
The Pentagon's intelligence arm has assessed with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon with a ballistic missile, though the reliability is believed to be "low.Did anyone else actually read the article?
Post by: freeformschooler on April 11, 2013, 08:57:25 pm
Quote from: From the CNN article linked earlierThe Pentagon's intelligence arm has assessed with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon with a ballistic missile, though the reliability is believed to be "low.Did anyone else actually read the article?
I was wondering this, too.
Post by: bulborbish on April 11, 2013, 09:16:02 pm
I was wondering this, too.Quote from: From the CNN article linked earlierThe Pentagon's intelligence arm has assessed with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon with a ballistic missile, though the reliability is believed to be "low.Did anyone else actually read the article?
It seems to be partially at blame of Rep. Lamborn, who read the information, going by the article.
Lamborn, of course, is part of the militant republican wing that would overblow this intel into what it is. I should know, I have the misfortune of being represented by him.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 11, 2013, 10:41:18 pm
Read it, yawned, ate some nutrition, reflected on life. Was thoroughly content. Wrote some things. Am still expecting North Korea to fade away into media apathy.Quote from: From the CNN article linked earlierThe Pentagon's intelligence arm has assessed with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon with a ballistic missile, though the reliability is believed to be "low.Did anyone else actually read the article?
Post by: IronyOwl on April 11, 2013, 11:10:26 pm
I skimmed most of it. Notably, after talking about the DIA report, there's like three people more or less saying:Read it, yawned, ate some nutrition, reflected on life. Was thoroughly content. Wrote some things. Am still expecting North Korea to fade away into media apathy.Quote from: From the CNN article linked earlierThe Pentagon's intelligence arm has assessed with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon with a ballistic missile, though the reliability is believed to be "low.Did anyone else actually read the article?
Quote
"It would be inaccurate to suggest that the North Korean regime has fully tested, developed, or demonstrated the kinds of nuclear capabilities referenced in the passage" of the DIA study.
Mind you, at the end one of those same people seems to turn around and say:
Quote
the nation's "nuclear weapons and missile programs pose a serious threat to the United States and to the security environment in East Asia."But that sounds like standard paranoid hooplah, especially since it mentions that SK doesn't care in between.
In short, I don't see how anything's changed. NK probably possibly has a nuke it can maybe somewhat use on some targets but probably not, SK doesn't care, some people in the US consider everything a serious threat.
Post by: GlyphGryph on April 12, 2013, 12:18:08 am
"North Korea may be able to deliver nuke."Many people in US of A are cowards that love crapping their pants in fear at every opportunity. News at 11.
How is this not somewhat panicking?
Not really, it's not news.
You know many countries DEFINITELY HAVE the ability to deliver a nuke into the US, right? And some, like Russia and China, aren't even all that friendly with us!
This isn't really panic inducing unless a) They have a good chance of succeeding and b) They have a reason for trying
and panic is pointless and should try to be suppressed in general unless
c) Panicking will actually help us respond more capable.
So... never. That's basically the time you should let panic be induced. And "not anywhere close" is the time where one might reasonable expect it to be induced even its stupid.
Post by: werty892 on April 12, 2013, 07:35:23 am
Security:So, handsome world leader, do you have anything to declare before you enter the degenerate United States?
Kim:No, I am not glowing green from radiation.
Post by: Haspen on April 12, 2013, 08:04:15 am
Anything new at the front? Besides, what I see, more sabre-rattling and US (of all people) being most allergic to it? v:
Post by: sneakey pete on April 12, 2013, 08:40:15 am
Post by: Sigulbard on April 12, 2013, 01:12:59 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 12, 2013, 01:15:09 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 12, 2013, 01:15:30 pm
Main thing to be worried about right now, i think, is a NK missile test going off course and heading smack bang into Japan, then a response to that turning into a full on conflict.I'm wondering if it would be better or worse than if a missile went off-course and hit China.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 12, 2013, 01:15:46 pm
Post by: Sigulbard on April 12, 2013, 01:24:33 pm
...That profile pic...
been watching it for five minutes now.
Post by: Fniff on April 12, 2013, 01:26:16 pm
I could watch Snake forever.
Post by: freeformschooler on April 12, 2013, 01:29:16 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 12, 2013, 01:37:41 pm
Post by: Fniff on April 12, 2013, 01:43:25 pm
...
Hey, wait a minute, symbolism?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 12, 2013, 02:32:03 pm
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
Post by: tryrar on April 12, 2013, 02:45:30 pm
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbqg5q5V6l1riuh2bo1_400.gif)
Post by: OREOSOME on April 12, 2013, 02:47:14 pm
So threatening shooting down missiles will be met with more missiles which will have more countermissiles shot which will have more missiles shot which-ERROR BRAIN OVERFLOWWell, if all the countermissiles are fired at the first wave, then the remaining missiles would do some damage.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbqg5q5V6l1riuh2bo1_400.gif)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 12, 2013, 02:58:16 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 12, 2013, 03:04:16 pm
That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
Post by: nenjin on April 12, 2013, 03:09:38 pm
Likewise, the headlines make me want to reach through the internet and punch the writers in their testicles/ovaries. Christ.
Post by: PanH on April 12, 2013, 03:21:47 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 12, 2013, 03:27:50 pm
Nonsense. They'll just claim they were never at war with Eastasia and move on.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 12, 2013, 03:29:19 pm
TIL North Korea is a mass enactment of 1984.Nonsense. They'll just claim they were never at war with Eastasia and move on.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
Post by: IronyOwl on April 12, 2013, 04:50:06 pm
Sigh... do people still think that the statements have any other point than to spread fear within NK and to get people to rally behind Dear Leader?Traditionally they've also been to get more aid from other countries.
In all seriousness, they do still have flagrant lies. This is probably the next level of their "I'll do it! I'M SERIOUS HERE! REALLY REALLY REALLY SERIOUS THIS TIME!" rhetoric, since their current stuff isn't working. If that doesn't work for real, they can always claim it worked internally ("The US has granted us generous concessions to be spared from our military might!"*), though obviously their external image could be a problem.TIL North Korea is a mass enactment of 1984.Nonsense. They'll just claim they were never at war with Eastasia and move on.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
*Oh god NK is run by Civilization AI that's been refused a cease fire.
The issue, of course, is just when they're going to do that. If their bluffing passes the point where another nation declares it an act of war, we could end up with an escalation all the way up in very short order. NK fires a missile or something, US decides that's it, NK panics and presses all their buttons or doesn't, gets annihilated immediately either way. Problems all around.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 12, 2013, 05:30:47 pm
KCNA's announcement states that they will obliterate Japan if the Japanese start a war. It doesn't state that North Korea will actually start the war by attacking Japan.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
Also, if North Korea actually planned to attack first, it wouldn't make any announcements about the upcoming war a few days/weeks/months before the attack. It would try to catch the USA and South Korea by surprise.
Post by: Sirus on April 12, 2013, 06:33:14 pm
Er. Shooting down a missile aimed at your country =/= declaration of war.KCNA's announcement states that they will obliterate Japan if the Japanese start a war. It doesn't state that North Korea will actually start the war by attacking Japan.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
I mean, it might in NK, but not in the rest of the world, last I checked.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 13, 2013, 02:02:42 pm
It's a declaration of war to interfere with GLORIOUS LEADER KIM JONG UNEr. Shooting down a missile aimed at your country =/= declaration of war.KCNA's announcement states that they will obliterate Japan if the Japanese start a war. It doesn't state that North Korea will actually start the war by attacking Japan.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
I mean, it might in NK, but not in the rest of the world, last I checked.
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 13, 2013, 08:55:09 pm
Beware, the lyrics aren't safe for work.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 13, 2013, 09:14:27 pm
That bastard blocked my punch! He must want to fight!It's a declaration of war to interfere with GLORIOUS LEADER KIM JONG UNEr. Shooting down a missile aimed at your country =/= declaration of war.KCNA's announcement states that they will obliterate Japan if the Japanese start a war. It doesn't state that North Korea will actually start the war by attacking Japan.That snake avatar.So NK just announced in front of their own people that they will start the war. Now the war will have to happen, or NK's leaders will lose face in front of the people. Dammit.
Is a thing of beauty.
Meanwhile North Korea threatens that the threat of shooting down missiles will be met with the threat of missiles. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/391376/North-Korea-states-nuclear-war-is-unavoidable-as-it-declares-first-target-will-be-Japan)
I mean, it might in NK, but not in the rest of the world, last I checked.
Post by: Max White on April 13, 2013, 09:51:57 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on April 14, 2013, 12:40:27 am
Well, right now that bastard seems willing to block my punch, after I was shouting like a moron that I'm going to punch everybody. Guess that i a threat and I better punch him!I need to invite Kim Jong-Un to participate in a cage match with me. Standard rules. No knees to the head. No groin shots. No biting or eye gouging. No potatoes.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 14, 2013, 12:47:44 am
Well, right now that bastard seems willing to block my punch, after I was shouting like a moron that I'm going to punch everybody. Guess that i a threat and I better punch him!I need to invite Kim Jong-Un to participate in a cage match with me. Standard rules. No knees to the head. No groin shots. No biting or eye gouging. No potatoes.
All fights without potatoes are not worth watching.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 14, 2013, 06:41:52 am
WE BELIEVE IN YOU MZ!Well, right now that bastard seems willing to block my punch, after I was shouting like a moron that I'm going to punch everybody. Guess that i a threat and I better punch him!I need to invite Kim Jong-Un to participate in a cage match with me. Standard rules. No knees to the head. No groin shots. No biting or eye gouging.No potatoes.
YOU CAN TAKE DOWN ALL THEIR POTATOES!
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 14, 2013, 07:43:18 am
If you beat Dear Leader in a cage match do you become Dear Leader?WE BELIEVE IN YOU MZ!Well, right now that bastard seems willing to block my punch, after I was shouting like a moron that I'm going to punch everybody. Guess that i a threat and I better punch him!I need to invite Kim Jong-Un to participate in a cage match with me. Standard rules. No knees to the head. No groin shots. No biting or eye gouging.No potatoes.
YOU CAN TAKE DOWN ALL THEIR POTATOES!
Post by: Max White on April 14, 2013, 07:46:43 am
Post by: bulborbish on April 14, 2013, 02:38:48 pm
How would anybody know? Nobody has ever beat Dear Leader. He did beat Mike Tyson at the age of three, as such his status as world champion is unquestioned.
And we cannot attempt to defeat him in martial arts, because he invented and mastered every style while curing cancer in North Korea.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 14, 2013, 02:47:29 pm
How would anybody know? Nobody has ever beat Dear Leader. He did beat Mike Tyson at the age of three, as such his status as world champion is unquestioned.
And we cannot attempt to defeat him in martial arts, because he invented and mastered every style while curing cancer in North Korea.
With the martial arts.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 14, 2013, 03:25:33 pm
(He also returns for Kim's Stage Two.)
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 14, 2013, 03:35:03 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2013, 03:45:25 pm
Stage Two? Kim has no stage two! Or if he does, nobody's ever reached it. The idea that you could beat his stage one is preposterous.You can cheat your way into it, by going the other way around, (in time)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 14, 2013, 04:34:52 pm
Spoiler: My stupid concept is stupid (click to show/hide)
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 14, 2013, 07:19:34 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 14, 2013, 08:56:25 pm
Mind you, that wouldn't preclude the possibility of everything getting out of hand, but it would mean NK's not likely to spiral any further out than they meant to.
Post by: Patchouli on April 15, 2013, 02:47:24 pm
Post by: Fniff on April 15, 2013, 02:52:16 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 15, 2013, 02:53:48 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 15, 2013, 02:55:04 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 15, 2013, 02:58:09 pm
PN:Dieing before waking up doesn't count.
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 15, 2013, 03:00:08 pm
Though it was the first thing to go through my mind...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 15, 2013, 03:01:00 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 15, 2013, 03:05:32 pm
Still, this sucks.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 15, 2013, 03:16:36 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 15, 2013, 03:49:28 pm
Post by: nenjin on April 15, 2013, 03:54:04 pm
At times I'm hard pressed to tell the difference between Western Media and Best Korean Media.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 15, 2013, 03:56:48 pm
Post by: nenjin on April 15, 2013, 03:58:44 pm
Found this. Might be related. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/15/north-korea-promises-to-attack-south-without-warning/)
"We're warning you that we will attack without warning."
Mmhmm.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 15, 2013, 04:00:34 pm
Post by: ibot66 on April 15, 2013, 04:03:57 pm
I was about to say, that if you warn someone about not warning them, then that's not really unwarned, is it?Found this. Might be related. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/15/north-korea-promises-to-attack-south-without-warning/)
"We're warning you that we will attack without warning."
Mmhmm.
Unless they attack 5 years from now.
Post by: Haspen on April 15, 2013, 04:09:55 pm
I was about to say, that if you warn someone about not warning them, then that's not really unwarned, is it?Found this. Might be related. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/15/north-korea-promises-to-attack-south-without-warning/)
"We're warning you that we will attack without warning."
Mmhmm.
Unless they attack 5 years from now.
*five years from now*
US President: Kim Jong Un, I'm glad about this peace treaty.
Kim Jong Un: So do I... HA!
*US President gets stabbed*
Kim Jong Un: WITHOUT WARNING I SAID, SUCKER >:U
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 15, 2013, 04:13:54 pm
US President: Kim Jong Un, I'm glad about this peace treaty.It's time for a Content Contest! What would the North Korean news say to this? Best reply is... best, I guess.
Kim Jong Un: So do I... HA!
*US President gets stabbed*
Kim Jong Un: WITHOUT WARNING I SAID, SUCKER >:U
Post by: Fniff on April 15, 2013, 04:16:55 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on April 15, 2013, 04:36:39 pm
*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kickI was about to say, that if you warn someone about not warning them, then that's not really unwarned, is it?Found this. Might be related. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/15/north-korea-promises-to-attack-south-without-warning/)
"We're warning you that we will attack without warning."
Mmhmm.
Unless they attack 5 years from now.
*five years from now*
US President: Kim Jong Un, I'm glad about this peace treaty.
Kim Jong Un: So do I... HA!
*US President gets stabbed*
Kim Jong Un: WITHOUT WARNING I SAID, SUCKER >:U
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 15, 2013, 04:51:27 pm
*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*
Post by: Tellemurius on April 15, 2013, 05:01:57 pm
Didn't stop Chuck Norris*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 15, 2013, 05:12:05 pm
Didn't stop Chuck Norris*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: tahujdt on April 15, 2013, 11:05:04 pm
And that's the difference between Chuck Norris and Korean strongmen. The Koreans push the weights up, but Chuck Norris pushes the world down.Didn't stop Chuck Norris*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Xantalos on April 15, 2013, 11:06:26 pm
If you're going to Chuck Norris meme, go whole hog.And that's the difference between Chuck Norris and Korean strongmen. The Koreans push the weights up, but Chuck Norris pushes the weigts up and the world down at the same time.Didn't stop Chuck Norris*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on April 15, 2013, 11:47:22 pm
Can't find anything about this on the BBC. Checked DailyNK, nothing there either. Did find this, though. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10492)Well that sucks. I'd really hope they're not so preoccupied with war rhetoric that they don't consider this a huge problem and have plans to deal with it.
Other than "blame it on the US" or "threaten supplies out of someone," obviously.
Post by: Ogdibus on April 16, 2013, 03:15:34 am
Post by: Sensei on April 16, 2013, 04:16:52 am
-snip-If you're going to Chuck Norris meme, go whole hog.
And that's the difference between Chuck Norris and Korean strongmen. The Koreans push the weights up, but Chuck Norris pushes the weigts up and the world down at the same time.
Well come on now, you just went and turned a Chuck Norris joke into a physics principles joke.
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 16, 2013, 04:24:37 am
Post by: Sigulbard on April 16, 2013, 12:07:49 pm
*angry glare of Chuck Norris fans*
I mean, his martial arts abilities are fine, but it's his 'Chuck-Norrisness' that I don't find anything impressive. Yeah, I'm on the Bruce Lee team.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 16, 2013, 12:13:51 pm
Didn't stop Chuck Norris*blown away by secret service with guns/ Chuck Norris roundhouse kick*Secret service gets blown away by without warning service.*Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That guy weighed 90 pounds before Chuck Norris winked at him.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 16, 2013, 01:51:11 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 16, 2013, 02:10:32 pm
North Koreans beginning to disbelieve their own government. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10493) How long do you think it will be before things go all Les Mis in the hermit kingdom?I guess this is going to be GDR all over again, except I have no idea what happens to the military.
Post by: Descan on April 16, 2013, 02:15:18 pm
That includes reserves (do they even have reserves?) and active duty.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 16, 2013, 02:17:49 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 16, 2013, 02:39:20 pm
North Koreans beginning to disbelieve their own government. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10493) How long do you think it will be before things go all Les Mis in the hermit kingdom?Why did they start disbelieving the government only now? They've been listening to foreign media for years.
Post by: Descan on April 16, 2013, 02:59:06 pm
Something broke the camels back, and now people are paying attention en masse, even though there wasn't really a large difference.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 16, 2013, 03:08:34 pm
And that's the difference between Chuck Norris and Korean strongmen. The Koreans push the weights up, but Chuck Norris pushes the world down.*There is no such thing as down.
NK: 1
Atheists: 0
Same as why sexism in video games has become such a hot button topic recently, even though it was a problem for years and people have been talking about it for years.Shoo! To the tropes thread with you!
Something broke the camels back, and now people are paying attention en masse, even though there wasn't really a large difference.
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 16, 2013, 03:16:26 pm
Same as why sexism in video games has become such a hot button topic recently, even though it was a problem for years and people have been talking about it for years.Er, I always thought that video game characters were male-dominated because it's easier to follow a story when your character's gender doesn't conflict with your society-based subconscious notion of gender roles, and since video games generally focus on male gender roles, the character is more often male.
Something broke the camels back, and now people are paying attention en masse, even though there wasn't really a large difference.
Post by: Descan on April 16, 2013, 03:20:23 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 16, 2013, 06:19:56 pm
I don't think anything in the article implied that it's completely new or becoming more popular all of a sudden, just that it's more popular now than it was and seems to be continuing to become more popular than it currently is.North Koreans beginning to disbelieve their own government. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10493) How long do you think it will be before things go all Les Mis in the hermit kingdom?Why did they start disbelieving the government only now? They've been listening to foreign media for years.
As for why, possibly what Descan said, possibly the increased rhetoric and problems lately, possibly who knows, and possibly just because we're only now hearing about or interested in it for... well, the same possible set of reasons that it's happening.
Reality is complicated.
THAT is for the tropes thread, what Magma said. All I was saying was that something could be going on for years and years, as an undercurrent, and then suddenly break out into mass public consciousness, as seen in the sexism in games, and with North Koreans seemingly suddenly distrusting their government.Except that notion is contested/not immediately obvious, as Magma's response indicates, meaning it's both a bit deraily and not a good analogy or example, as Magma's response indicates.
Post by: mcclay on April 16, 2013, 07:24:23 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 16, 2013, 07:36:12 pm
This kind of makes we worried, if NK's people start putting pressure on the Glorious Leader he might do something regrettable.Exactly. In the wrong position, He might do things that would otherwise end his power. Think Assad. But, his words are backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
Post by: Sensei on April 16, 2013, 07:42:46 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 16, 2013, 07:44:01 pm
Eh, his conventional weponz would do more damage.This kind of makes we worried, if NK's people start putting pressure on the Glorious Leader he might do something regrettable.Exactly. In the wrong position, He might do things that would otherwise end his power. Think Assad. But, his words are backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
Post by: Sensei on April 16, 2013, 08:51:39 pm
(http://www.legaljuice.com/Car%20on%20blocks%20no%20wheels.jpg)
Post by: Descan on April 16, 2013, 09:11:13 pm
What, the notion that people are talking about sexism in games? I... don't see how the notion that people are talking about it is contested.THAT is for the tropes thread, what Magma said. All I was saying was that something could be going on for years and years, as an undercurrent, and then suddenly break out into mass public consciousness, as seen in the sexism in games, and with North Koreans seemingly suddenly distrusting their government.Except that notion is contested/not immediately obvious, as Magma's response indicates, meaning it's both a bit deraily and not a good analogy or example, as Magma's response indicates.
Post by: tahujdt on April 16, 2013, 09:25:07 pm
Keep in mind, Best Korea has nuclear missiles like this guy has a monster truck.You could do some decent damage with that.
(http://www.legaljuice.com/Car%20on%20blocks%20no%20wheels.jpg)
Post by: Hubris Incalculable on April 16, 2013, 09:27:00 pm
Yeah, but mostly to your own vehicle.Keep in mind, Best Korea has nuclear missiles like this guy has a monster truck.You could do some decent damage with that.
(http://www.legaljuice.com/Car%20on%20blocks%20no%20wheels.jpg)
Post by: Absolute Niro on April 16, 2013, 09:29:13 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 16, 2013, 10:29:02 pm
Also, it's people like you guys that are why north korea has nuclear tests.
Post by: Sensei on April 17, 2013, 12:55:29 am
They are nukes. Yes, they are small, cheap, but they get the job done.That's actually not certain. We know that they have created a large underground explosion which they claim was a nuclear device. It's unlikely, but they could be lying. We all doubt that they are capable of creating a nuclear device small enough to be mounted on a rocket. We know they aren't capable of feeding anybody or keeping a working fleet of military trucks (they've been converted to wood burning engines and the tires are full of dried rice).
More damningly, we know they aren't actually mobilizing any troops, tanks or artillery except for a couple outdated rocket-trucks they move up and down the coast every once in a while. We can see their troops. They're not actually taking measures to prepare for a war.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 17, 2013, 01:02:19 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 17, 2013, 01:38:18 am
What, the notion that people are talking about sexism in games? I... don't see how the notion that people are talking about it is contested.Yep it's contested. Otherwise you wouldn't get people trying to raise awareness if it were considered by all to be common knowledge.
They are nukes. Yes, they are small, cheap, but they get the job done.Large, costly and unlikely to succeed :P
Also, it's people like you guys that are why north korea has nuclear tests.Elaborate?
Post by: IronyOwl on April 17, 2013, 01:42:30 am
"Some people are talking about it some" probably isn't contested for anything, which also means it's not saying much. I thought your point in both cases was that people are all of a sudden talking about it a bunch even though nothing has really changed?What, the notion that people are talking about sexism in games? I... don't see how the notion that people are talking about it is contested.THAT is for the tropes thread, what Magma said. All I was saying was that something could be going on for years and years, as an undercurrent, and then suddenly break out into mass public consciousness, as seen in the sexism in games, and with North Koreans seemingly suddenly distrusting their government.Except that notion is contested/not immediately obvious, as Magma's response indicates, meaning it's both a bit deraily and not a good analogy or example, as Magma's response indicates.
They are nukes. Yes, they are small, cheap, but they get the job done. And that job is something we'd prefer to not leave to estimations of how capable they are. Similar to who we'd not gamble with pressing a big red button knowing there was a chance, no matter how remote, of it ending all human life, similarly, we'd prefer not to underestimate them.We don't want to overestimate them either. Panicking makes you less safe and prosperous, not more.
Also, it's people like you guys that are why north korea has nuclear tests.NK has nuclear tests because people kept laughing at how bad their nukes were?
Now if only they'd take our feeding their people jibes more seriously.
The CIA believes they have 10-12 nukes, and while they lie about a lot of things they wouldn't lie about this.I don't see why not. They're a black ops organization that can wriggle out of most accountability issues on the basis of national secrets, aren't they?
Post by: Xantalos on April 17, 2013, 01:44:13 am
We exist. Therefore Best Korea has something to bomb.Also, it's people like you guys that are why north korea has nuclear tests.Elaborate?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 17, 2013, 01:51:22 am
That's not the point. It isn't in their interests to say NK has nukes when they don't. If NK does not have nukes and says it does, then the CIA has the choice to either lie or tell the truth.The CIA believes they have 10-12 nukes, and while they lie about a lot of things they wouldn't lie about this.I don't see why not. They're a black ops organization that can wriggle out of most accountability issues on the basis of national secrets, aren't they?
If they lie, then they implicitly are helping North Korea by maintaining their threat and allowing the US to look foolish if it ever comes out any other way that they have no nukes.
If they tell the truth, then they make NK look declawed and pathetic on the world stage.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 17, 2013, 01:54:24 am
That's not the point. It isn't in their interests to say NK has nukes when they don't. If NK does not have nukes and says it does, then the CIA has the choice to either lie or tell the truth.Where have we heard claims of weapons of mass destruction which turned out to be false used for political gain before...
If they lie, then they implicitly are helping North Korea by maintaining their threat and allowing the US to look foolish if it ever comes out any other way that they have no nukes.
If they tell the truth, then they make NK look declawed and pathetic on the world stage.
Crap.We exist. Therefore Best Korea has something to bomb.Also, it's people like you guys that are why north korea has nuclear tests.Elaborate?
I just realized we don't exist. We're a virtual construct imagined by a young Kim Jong-Il in his dreams, a world where North Korea is the underdog in a sea of military nations and progressive unions stacked against a bleak country.
North Korea is actually the best nation in the world and all its people live in constant prosperity. They have traveled the stars and unraveled the secrets of the universe, living with solid societal integrity and unity that prizes intelligence and open minded advances in culture and science.
And then Kim Jong-Il wakes up...
Post by: IronyOwl on April 17, 2013, 01:57:13 am
If they lie, then they implicitly are helping North Korea by maintaining their threat and allowing the US to look foolish if it ever comes out any other way that they have no nukes.Wasn't this exactly what happened in Iraq, though? They looked foolish, but nothing bad happened to them (or anyone else, really).
Ninja'd by Loud.
If they tell the truth, then they make NK look declawed and pathetic on the world stage.That's true. It does assume that's what they want, though, which again, I'm not sure has been established.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 17, 2013, 01:58:37 am
Where have we heard claims of weapons of mass destruction which turned out to be false used for political gain before...Your distrust is ignoring the context of the situation. The CIA are black hats, but they aren't fucking cartoon villains. They will act, whether moral or immorally, in a fashion that rationally benefits the interests of the CIA and the USA.
North Korea is not Iraq. There is virtually nothing they want there. Invading it would be a geopolitical mess that would make Iraq look fine and dandy. And once the invasion is over you're gonna bet China is going to start asking everyone why there needs to be such a high US military presence in the area anymore.
Post by: Osmosis Jones on April 17, 2013, 02:18:52 am
Where have we heard claims of weapons of mass destruction which turned out to be false used for political gain before...Your distrust is ignoring the context of the situation. The CIA are black hats, but they aren't fucking cartoon villains. They will act, whether moral or immorally, in a fashion that rationally benefits the interests of the CIA and the USA.
North Korea is not Iraq. There is virtually nothing they want there. Invading it would be a geopolitical mess that would make Iraq look fine and dandy. And once the invasion is over you're gonna bet China is going to start asking everyone why there needs to be such a high US military presence in the area anymore.
Regarding WMDs in Iraq, according to a CIA analyst working on that exact data (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/iraq-intelligence/), the blame lies rather squarely with the politicians, not with what the CIA was reporting.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 17, 2013, 02:24:12 am
I think it's routine, but it's the first time I've seen the buses appear there over a year.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 17, 2013, 08:26:15 am
Wherether they have warheads that work is doubtable, but I think they're capable of nuclear detonations.
Post by: Culise on April 17, 2013, 09:33:00 am
Why does it need to be that the CIA is lying or telling the truth? Is it impossible that they may simply be wrong? That is, they assume that the nuclear test was successful. From there, they analyze the active nuclear processing facilities, the duration for which they have been operational, and the average estimated output given experiences the US and other nations have had with similar processing facilities using similar methods, and identify how much nuclear fuel has been produced; from this, they identify how many warheads can be produced from the amount of material available, and give that as their estimated number. As for why they'd rather assume that the nuclear test was successful from a pragmatic standpoint, if they claim nuclear warheads and are wrong, then we lose out on the cost of however much food we're putting into North Korea. If they claim the absence of nuclear warheads and are wrong...well, a lot of people die in nuclear fireballs when the Kim regime starts to fall apart, and a lot of very awkward questions get raised in Langley.That's not the point. It isn't in their interests to say NK has nukes when they don't. If NK does not have nukes and says it does, then the CIA has the choice to either lie or tell the truth.The CIA believes they have 10-12 nukes, and while they lie about a lot of things they wouldn't lie about this.I don't see why not. They're a black ops organization that can wriggle out of most accountability issues on the basis of national secrets, aren't they?
If they lie, then they implicitly are helping North Korea by maintaining their threat and allowing the US to look foolish if it ever comes out any other way that they have no nukes.
If they tell the truth, then they make NK look declawed and pathetic on the world stage.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 17, 2013, 02:23:55 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 17, 2013, 03:57:14 pm
Symbolism happens in a town called Musan. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10498) Also, Foreign currency is becoming prevalent in North Korea. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk03200&num=10496)Ah. Delicious progress. Communication and cultural exchange winning over self destructive isolation. WONDERUFUL.
Post by: Culise on April 17, 2013, 04:01:32 pm
All I can think is that I feel sorry for the poor buggers who are going to end up being made scapegoats for what happened in Musan.Symbolism happens in a town called Musan. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10498) Also, Foreign currency is becoming prevalent in North Korea. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk03200&num=10496)Ah. Delicious progress. Communication and cultural exchange winning over self destructive isolation. WONDERUFUL.
Post by: ggamer on April 17, 2013, 06:05:35 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 17, 2013, 06:37:07 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:01:01 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 17, 2013, 07:02:58 pm
6/10 at best. Your theories need more work.
Post by: misko27 on April 17, 2013, 07:03:51 pm
O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK, who was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.Best thousandth reply possible.
Did I leave anything out?
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:23:51 pm
Needs more United Nations One World Order, taking away guns, fake moon landings, and time travel.I was trying to include all the current events.
6/10 at best. Your theories need more work.
And whether you think it's a good idea or not, gun control is not a conspiracy theory. It was just proposed (and shot down) today. It is (trying to) happen right now. Fortunately (or un-, depending on your view) it was shot down, and we got a great picture of Obama
Post by: Descan on April 17, 2013, 07:24:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on April 17, 2013, 07:27:30 pm
And I wasn't talking about gun control, I was talking about some sort of nationwide blanket confiscation that certain segments of the population endlessly predict.
But y'know, Korea thread, not American Politics thread.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 17, 2013, 07:28:26 pm
In the morning, I saw a dozen big 50-seater buses loading up people. There was a small sign with the words 'Mobilizing Reserves' on each one. O.o I also saw a jeep/humvee/whatever military car.You think anything's gonna happen?
I think it's routine, but it's the first time I've seen the buses appear there over a year.
Everyone serves in the military for a year in South Korea, right? Think it's the draft? Though "Mobilizing Reserves" implies it isn't.
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:32:01 pm
yaaaay more right wing rhetoricSorry if I go on a bit about gun control (or lack thereof), it's just that I think that the ability to defend ourselves is important, especially since the courts have ruled that the police are not legally obligated to protect us.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 17, 2013, 07:34:28 pm
Sorry if I go on a bit about gun control (or lack thereof), it's just that I think that the ability to defend ourselves is important, especially since the courts have ruled that the police are not legally obligated to protect us.
You're chock full of reason.
Post by: Max White on April 17, 2013, 07:35:39 pm
Sorry if I go on a bit about gun control (or lack thereof), it's just that I think that the ability to defend ourselves is important, especially since the courts have ruled that the police are not legally obligated to protect us.Wait... If your police aren't there to protect you, why have them?
Post by: Leafsnail on April 17, 2013, 07:36:23 pm
Post by: Descan on April 17, 2013, 07:37:15 pm
Actually, he's right about that. Certain courts have ruled that police did not have an obligation to help in the circumstances that they went to court with.Sorry if I go on a bit about gun control (or lack thereof), it's just that I think that the ability to defend ourselves is important, especially since the courts have ruled that the police are not legally obligated to protect us.
You're chock full of reason.
HEDGING! :D
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:44:38 pm
In the case I'm thinking of, the circumstances were assault, rape (in the victims home, mind you), and several slight variations of those. According to one of the witnesses (soon to become a victim), after she called the police, she snuck out on to the roof to watch for the police. She just saw one squad car drive slowly by. And this was to a "Priority One" call, mind you. The point is that the police cannot always be counted on.Actually, he's right about that. Certain courts have ruled that police did not have an obligation to help in the circumstances that they went to court with.Sorry if I go on a bit about gun control (or lack thereof), it's just that I think that the ability to defend ourselves is important, especially since the courts have ruled that the police are not legally obligated to protect us.
You're chock full of reason.
HEDGING! :D
Post by: Max White on April 17, 2013, 07:47:57 pm
In the case I'm thinking of, the circumstances were assault, rape (in the victims home, mind you), and several slight variations of those. According to one of the witnesses (soon to become a victim), after she called the police, she snuck out on to the roof to watch for the police. She just saw one squad car drive slowly by. And this was to a "Priority One" call, mind you. The point is that the police cannot always be counted on.No seriously, why do you have police at all then? ???
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 17, 2013, 07:49:27 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:52:23 pm
To take care of criminals, it's just that they can't always get there in time, and you have to defend yourself. Also, for actual policing work, detective work, traffic monitoring, etc.In the case I'm thinking of, the circumstances were assault, rape (in the victims home, mind you), and several slight variations of those. According to one of the witnesses (soon to become a victim), after she called the police, she snuck out on to the roof to watch for the police. She just saw one squad car drive slowly by. And this was to a "Priority One" call, mind you. The point is that the police cannot always be counted on.No seriously, why do you have police at all then? ???
Post by: Max White on April 17, 2013, 07:56:33 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 07:57:23 pm
Anybody else see the ethical issues involved in the idea of 'Own a gun and protect yourself?'Nope. It's worked fine since 1776. Give or take a few years.
Post by: Max White on April 17, 2013, 07:59:02 pm
Ok, have fun with that then. ???
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 17, 2013, 07:59:58 pm
Anybody else see the ethical issues involved in the idea of 'Own a gun and protect yourself?'
Nope. It's worked fine since 1776. Give or take a few years.Oh no you don't. No infinitely circular arguments about gun ownership that will never be resolved because Americans and Australians have radically divergent views and cultural attitudes on it in this thread!
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 08:05:08 pm
I believe the original derail was about a JFK/Elvis two-headed clone. Please don't change the subject.Anybody else see the ethical issues involved in the idea of 'Own a gun and protect yourself?'Nope. It's worked fine since 1776. Give or take a few years.Oh no you don't. No infinitely circular arguments about gun ownership that will never be resolved because Americans and Australians have radically divergent views and cultural attitudes on it in this thread!
Also edited my earlier post to reflect the suggestions.
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 08:10:46 pm
O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. While he was at it, he programmed a computer to fake Obama's birth certificate. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.My updated conspiracy theory.
Post by: Sirus on April 17, 2013, 08:13:04 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 08:14:31 pm
He will also be responsible for programming Friend Computer.O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. While he was at it, he programmed a computer to fake Obama's birth certificate. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.My updated conspiracy theory.
Sorry, rereading some old Paranoia books right now.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 17, 2013, 08:19:01 pm
Sorry, that material is above your classification. Please report to the execution chamber or face summary execution.He will also be responsible for programming Friend Computer.O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. While he was at it, he programmed a computer to fake Obama's birth certificate. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.My updated conspiracy theory.
Sorry, rereading some old Paranoia books right now.
Post by: tahujdt on April 17, 2013, 08:20:33 pm
Friend Computer, that was a Commie Traitor, not me!Sorry, that material is above your classification. Please report to the execution chamber or face summary execution.He will also be responsible for programming Friend Computer.O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. While he was at it, he programmed a computer to fake Obama's birth certificate. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.My updated conspiracy theory.
Sorry, rereading some old Paranoia books right now.
Post by: Xantalos on April 18, 2013, 12:36:51 am
No. It! Is!
SNEILA-JONG BUN! THE DEVASTATOR!
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2013, 12:55:43 am
You fools think it was aliens?!
No. It! Is!
SNEILA! THE DEVASTATOR!
Wait no fuck that shit where is the Korea in all this?
Kim Jong-Son I am disappoint.
Post by: Xantalos on April 18, 2013, 12:56:34 am
I like how on topic we are.Can't prove it was that.You fools think it was aliens?!
No. It! Is!
SNEILA! THE DEVASTATOR!
Wait no fuck that shit where is the Korea in all this?
Kim Jong-Son I am disappoint.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 18, 2013, 01:02:30 am
O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.If you make the theory logical and reasonable and actively promote it, sooner or later you'll be on Russia Today.
Post by: tahujdt on April 18, 2013, 01:04:42 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2013, 01:07:43 am
If the theory both appeals to logic and reason shouldn't you be promoting it? Because what if you're right and there really are these Elvis-Ettin-Illuminati clones?O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.If you make the theory logical and reasonable and actively promote it, sooner or later you'll be on Russia Today.
Post by: tahujdt on April 18, 2013, 01:10:24 am
We can't draw attention to ourselves because of the aliens, duh!If the theory both appeals to logic and reason shouldn't you be promoting it? Because what if you're right and there really are these Elvis-Ettin-Illuminati clones?O.K., guys, here's the new conspiracy theory: The bomber in Boston was actually a two-headed clone of Elvis and JFK created by the United Nations One World Order, then taken sent back in time a hundred years to fake the moon landing. He was working for The Illuminati, but then bribed by North Korea's alien overlords.If you make the theory logical and reasonable and actively promote it, sooner or later you'll be on Russia Today.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 18, 2013, 02:52:03 am
Symbolism happens in a town called Musan. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10498) Also, Foreign currency is becoming prevalent in North Korea. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk03200&num=10496)
Quote
According to South Korean government estimates, since Kim Jong Eun came to power six statues of Kim Il Sung and/or Kim Jong Il have been built at a total of six places for a cost of around $9.5 million, along with 400 mosaics worth approximately $32 million.
Quote
The video shows that, with the exception of locally sourced rice, most vegetables, seafood, basic necessities and confectionary are Chinese-made.Guuuuuuuuuuuuys? I know public image is important and all, but seriously.
Post by: Max White on April 18, 2013, 02:55:57 am
Quote
cheap Chinese rice was selling for 4.6-5 Yuan/kg, and North Korean rice for 4.8-5 Yuan/kg.Isn't that actually somewhat cheep?
I mean I know the country is financially suffering, so there may be many that can't even afford that, but my point is that shouldn't it be pretty feasible to help them get onto their feet, assuming their wasn't some asshole dictator in the way?
Post by: IronyOwl on April 18, 2013, 03:27:16 am
The bigger issue to me is that they're not making any of it themselves, or rather that they're making some of their own rice and then everything else has a tendency to be imported. It's hard to be prosperous when rice farming or being a soldier are your only options for income.Quotecheap Chinese rice was selling for 4.6-5 Yuan/kg, and North Korean rice for 4.8-5 Yuan/kg.Isn't that actually somewhat cheep?
I mean I know the country is financially suffering, so there may be many that can't even afford that, but my point is that shouldn't it be pretty feasible to help them get onto their feet, assuming their wasn't some asshole dictator in the way?
Post by: MaximumZero on April 18, 2013, 11:23:06 am
This part here pisses me off the most. It's not like the people are fucking starving to death or anything.QuoteAccording to South Korean government estimates, since Kim Jong Eun came to power six statues of Kim Il Sung and/or Kim Jong Il have been built at a total of six places for a cost of around $9.5 million, along with 400 mosaics worth approximately $32 million.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 19, 2013, 02:40:39 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2013, 02:44:58 pm
Post by: Sensei on April 19, 2013, 03:05:04 pm
Aint no exercise like a Pyongyang exercise because a Pyongyang exercise absolute mandatory.As of today, Glorious Leader declares comic sans mandatory.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 19, 2013, 03:07:02 pm
Confirmed.Aint no exercise like a Pyongyang exercise because a Pyongyang exercise absolute mandatory.As of today, Glorious Leader declares comic sans mandatory.
Post by: nenjin on April 19, 2013, 03:51:03 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 19, 2013, 03:52:51 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 19, 2013, 03:53:02 pm
Look, we don't have much time. I'm typing this in a font they can't read, but we need to escape, now.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2013, 03:56:39 pm
Join the People's Liberation ArmyAbsolute.
Look, we don't have much time. I'm typing this in a font that is a gem of nationalism in a sea of democratic pigs, but we need to work harder lest we fall to their hellish weapons, now.
Post by: tahujdt on April 19, 2013, 03:59:17 pm
Imperialist pigs!Join the People's Liberation ArmyAbsolute.
Look, we don't have much time. I'm typing this in a font that is a gem of nationalism in a sea of democratic pigs, but we need to work harder lest we fall to their hellish weapons, now.
Post by: Frumple on April 19, 2013, 04:03:17 pm
Join the ResistanceThe People's Institution of Democratic Observation would like to inform the Resistance that our techniques are more advanced than you had assumed. We know where you are. We know where you're going. Escape is futile.
Look, we don't have much time. I'm typing this in a font they can't read, but we need to escape, now.
Post by: Sensei on April 19, 2013, 04:17:33 pm
Post by: werty892 on April 19, 2013, 04:30:13 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: misko27 on April 19, 2013, 05:36:30 pm
To correct this, from this day forward all posts by me shall be in Courier. Because why the hell not?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 19, 2013, 05:40:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 19, 2013, 05:41:33 pm
I think there is some sort of insane bias with font's or something. I don't know. I heard there are maybe, 6 different fonts one can use?
To correct this, from this day forward all posts by me shall be in Courier. Because why the hell not?
Damn... Fascist scum! Comic Sans is the true font for the people! Long live the Glorious Leader! Long live the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea!
Post by: Slayerhero90 on April 19, 2013, 05:41:42 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2013, 05:42:49 pm
COMPLACENCE!Liberation!
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 19, 2013, 05:43:54 pm
I think there is some sort of insane bias with font's or something. I don't know. I heard there are maybe, 6 different fonts one can use?Because trebuchets have that extra air of sophistication that make them better then catapults.
To correct this, from this day forward all posts by me shall be in Courier. Because why the hell not?
Post by: Max White on April 19, 2013, 05:53:25 pm
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 19, 2013, 06:00:07 pm
In light of internal conflict within the Korean Peninsula over standardized font face, the international community has widely responded with fuck that shit. Tensions are high, and a peaceful resolution seems beyond anybodies grasp.International media is, meanwhile, not helping. In other news, a thread has derailed further then any analyst expected, possibly going beyond the safety limits set by previous incidents.
Post by: Sensei on April 19, 2013, 06:48:51 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 19, 2013, 06:51:45 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 19, 2013, 07:28:46 pm
Post by: Remuthra on April 19, 2013, 07:32:48 pm
Post by: mcclay on April 19, 2013, 08:46:12 pm
Post by: Remuthra on April 19, 2013, 08:51:54 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on April 19, 2013, 09:34:19 pm
Ç̄̂ͤ̐͐̽͆̎̀͏͖̜̳̳͠ͅo̙̳̹̙͛̓ͥͦ̔͆͌ͫ͋̕͜r̮̘͓̟̼̖̩ͭ͐͐̄͒̂ͩ̍̔̅̕͟͢͞r͗͐̓́͑̒̓̍̂̀̔̋̋҉̟̺̯̥͍͕̺̜̺̝̝̜̘̟͘͞ȕͨͨ́̏̓̐̒̈̚͏̘̮̳̳̻̭͙͇͖͇̗̩̲͙͖̟͞p̷̰̰̘̰̰̫͍̈́̉̍̽̉̂̃̂ͫͯ̃̋̚͜t̊̌ͧ̀͑̐ͬ̈́͛̎̐̊̋̿҉̻̪̪̜̘̺̠̹̙̬̼͞ę̞͕͖̺̺͎̗̞̫̙͎̭̖̮͍̀̍ͦ̆̀̈̏ͣ̈́̋̚͘d̶͛̏̒̀̚͘͟҉̙͉̱̪̰̟̩͙͓̻̩͓̩͙̦͍ͅͅ ̡̫̝̦̼̩̪̖̭͔̣͖̍͊̊̃́ͬ̓̈͑͂̽̚͞c̅̃̔ͥ́̍̉͐̔͊̽҉̛̮̠̤̟̖̱̩̪̼̟̻̙̫̼̹̜ǫ̸̥͓̠̘͈̰̲̹̭̮̼̥̠͙͎̯̯̳̥ͬ͒̄͊͑̈́̏̆͊͊ͮ͒ͣ͊͐͡m͌͌̽̾̎̄҉̵̨̫̩̲̞̤̯̮̭̼̯̙͘ͅi̶̢̡̡̺̱̗̯̱̹͓̰̱̜͕ͥͯ͛͋ͥ̂ͦ̈ͣ̓ͅć͆ͩͥ͆͛̋̉̅ͤ̊ͩͧ͏̶͈̫͈̪͚ ̴̹̥̞͎̹̲͍̦͇͓̱̭̥͉̳ͥ͛͌̍ͩ̔͛͋̓ͧͪ̊̒͘͢ͅs̘̭͇̗̯̻̼̙̥̫̈̈́ͨ̀͜͜͜ͅǎͪͧ̋̎̔̚͜҉̵̗͉̤̼͈͖͍̘̻̬͚̮̤̭̗̻͙̥́n̸̥̠̘̝̻͈̙͔͕̫̩̩͔̼͎̬ͬͯ̀ͯ́̑́̅̑̌ͤ̓ͭͧ̋̌̑͘͜͞͞s̰͉̫͖͗̂̋ͭ̍̂͌ͫ̈́ͧ̾͡͠͠ ̩̹͖̗͔̯̟͖̜͔͖̫̳̦̒ͦͣͯͬ̓͒̈ͤͦ̂͂͞į̤̝̣͉̻̥̯̻̣͈̱̼͔̑͛̏ͬͭ̅̎ͪͫ̏͘s̵͓̞̳̯̞͕̩͓̫̟̗͖̭̖͓̣̥̎̏́ͨ͂̓ͬ̂͊ͬͨ̄͆ͮ̔͒̚͝ ̸̮̝͔͎͈͖̳̜͒͊ͫ̉̆ͫ̌̈̔ͦ̀͠ṭ̨̼͙̜̳͈͓͍̺̻̗̯̟̲̺̩̳ͨ͋̓̾̄̄̑͂̚͡ͅḣ̡͓̻̠̙̝̙̻̲̯̤̦͆̀ͪ̔ͨ̚͟͟e̡̧ͨ̃ͬͮ̚҉̩̞̩͖̮͎̻͓̮̦͖̯̠̥̻͘ͅ ̵ͪ̅ͦͬ͢҉̤̲̦͙͇̟̫̞͇̥͇̺̗̱̻͓̳̕͢l͍͍̘͙̠̬͓̖͓͚̮͚͕͒̋ͥ͌̅̾ͯ͐ͪ͋̏͌͂̿̅͊̉̀͟a̩̮̳̯̓̃ͭ̽͑͒ͩͮ͋ͥ̏͝n̾̆̐̈́̈́́ͫ̆ͤ̀ͯ̚͡҉̯̪̺̙̬̱̘̣̖̞̹͎̰͓͜͞͞ͅg̶̨̤͙̺̰̣͙̥̬͚͓̣̻͈̖̥͔̹ͤ̑̀͗ͣ̓̓͜͡ű̵̎ͪ͆ͨ͒ͥ͊̂̂ͣͦ̊ͪ̐͏̶̲͎͚̤̮͎̞̜̰͝͞a̷̢͚̮̬̘̭̩̖̱̲̞̟̜̿ͭ̋̌̄̏ͯ̾̋͒ͯ̏͋ͮ̚̚͜͞ͅg̴͔̻͙͙͎̼̩̫̼̩̙̖͉̬̰͌̊̓ͭͫͧ͌ͬ͛͑͑͠͡͞ͅę̵̴̨̪̞͉͇̫̟̙̞̪̻ͤͧ͆̾̀̾͑͊̚ͅ ̵̸̣̞̭̰̳̦͉͖͙̳͇̹̯̪̜͉͇̪͙͛ͥͨ̏ȍ̾̎̒ͩ̌͐̒̚̕҉͎̰͖͍̪̖̖̣f̶̸̪̦̩͎̲̹̜̯̦̩̯̳͐͑ͯͮ͑̋ͫ̀̄ͬ́̋̓͒ͪ͘͟ ̴̸̨̛̻̫̲̣̖̘̘͖̟̓ͫ̑̚͝t͆ͩ̾ͮ̇̐͒͊͏̶̧͚̯̖̱̝̣̙̱̜̱͓͞͠ḫ̵̴̯̪̭̗̦̲̊ͧͫ̌͌ͣͩ̊͊͞͠ȩ̵̶̛̱͎͉̺̲̭͎̫̘͉̦͈̣͚̩̘̊̑̊̓ͮ͒̍̚̚͝ ͆͋̆̓̐̊ͣͮ̄ͣͥ͐ͩ̚͏̱̻͕̹̗͎̮̯̯̩̹̙͕o̴̢̻̳̣͎͎̻̺̠͓̲ͩ̒ͧ̉̍ͣ̀͆̿̓̏̇̕͡l̸̵̝͎̱͍̣̜͚̱͎͉͌̉ͤ̊ͥ̎ͮ̇͑̊̐͌̽ͨ̈́̎͌ͅd̵̈́̔́͂͗ͮ͆ͭ̔͂̍͌ͫ͋͟͢҉̷͓̰̰̩͖̻͙͉̱̜̜̥̭ ̷̧̰̳̜͈̯̞̰̭̼̟͈̘̤͓̰ͧ͂̆ͯͤ̋͐̏͗͌ͮ̏͒̚̕͠ͅͅo̷̸̺͕̰̥̳̻͔͓̺̲̞̳̤̲̯͉͕̜̼̊̆̈́̓̒̋̀̋̇̄͑̊̄̚͟n̷̛͎̼̘̼̦͙̪̖̜ͣͬͤ̂e̶̢̘̫͔̝̟̞͇͎̞͕̗̠̦̲̼͉͇̯̍͂ͤ̄̇̋͢s̷̨̨̭̠̰͇̦͓͕͉̦̟̪̩̠̈͑ͥ̀̅̀̇ͯ̃ͫ̉̈́͛̀ͦ͐̇͡.̮̩͇͓͖̭͌ͩ̏ͦ̿̽͗̐̆ͭ̌̍̂ͤ̕͘ ̂̑͋͗̆̄͑̈̉̊̀̈ͮͥ̂ͣ͏̴̷̧̰͎̯̘͔̞̬̭̯̙̱̱̪͍͎B̴̨̤̠͔͍͔͕̦͍͓͙̖̜̆͑̊ͮͯ̑̇͠͝ͅo̩̤͇̣̤ͯ͌ͪ̀ͧͦͦ̌̌̑ͣͣ͋̃̔͒̆́ẃ̨̢̢͆̾ͨ̎̃̉͂͏̩̼̫̩͜ ̝̞͙̬̔͂ͧ͛͜͜͞b̨̨͉̣̫̘̻̳̦̭̖̹̜͉̞͚͎ͮͤ̓͑̄͋̓ͣ͒̐̄̋͢e̵̱͓͙̼̥̩̋ͧ͐͊ͨ͂̔͐ͭ͢f̹͍̖̱͕̹̥̭͍ͮͣ̑͆ͣͮ̉͒ͭ̔̇ͤ̉ͩ̓͢͝o̍͑̓̓ͩ̽̃̈̚̚̕͟͏͎͇̯̰̞͍̣̘̀͡ŗ̵͍͇͚̟̝̜̥̪̦̥̬͉̱̻͚͓͍̟͇ͥͤͦ͆ͧ̊̔͐̽e̷̸̶̡̙̦̹̖̺͕̞͇̣̲̽̄͗̾̍͗͟ͅ ̨̝͉̰̳̰̲͎̝̬̳̖̐́̉͑̐́́̕͢ý̶͕̥̺͕̖͓̻͑ͧ̄̎̈́͂̾̄͋ͦͫ̓̑̔͆͜o̷ͨ̂͊ͣ͗̃̏̎̑ͣͪ͗͝͏̷̞̠̭͈u̷̶̷̪͚͕̺̦̦̙̘̠̝͔̰̙̱̖̤ͤ̓͊̅ͬ̇̒͋̈͛ͯͩ͆ͨ̊̏̆̈́̚͘͞r̴̞̤̮̗̰͉̫͍̞̩̯͉͖͇̫ͧ̏͑ͭͭ̾̓̚͝ͅͅ ̴̧̟̠̭̗͕̝̯͉̻̹̺̣̦͇͇̹̮͖̤͒̔͐ͪ̈ͩͭͪ̍͠͞ĕ̡̢̟͕̱̭͖̻͈̖̦̼̠̘̜̜̺̘͈̄̾̽̒ͪ͐̈̈ͥͧ͛ͥ͑̈̇ͪ̋͝͡ͅl̴̀͗ͧ͏̸̬̙̟̮̰̮̯̱̮́͝d̸̜͚̹͓͉̝̑̓͒ͨ͋̉͂͠ŗ̸̡̫̮͍̭̦͔̩͓̪̰͕͚͚̯̄̋ͭ͂ͦ͆͑ͅͅį̓̋̄ͥ̆̀͂́̄̽ͫ̔̅ͦ͑̚҉͇̮̹̝̬̞̱̙͙͇̼͈͚͙̣̩̱͉ͅt̴̺̤̞̹̘̬̙̭̳̝͙̹̯̭͕̫̬̙̋̓͌ͦ̊̉͛̑͛̎̓̚c̵̡̰̩͖̭ͧͯͦͥ̄ͮͣ̀ͭͩ̓̔̑̐̕h̸̨͈͎̻̙̥̟̱̻̙͍̦͍͎̲͓̺͔̪̒̈̅̏̓̾̌̐̔̑̂̈́͋̇̂̑͘͢ ̶̛̜̳̺͎͉̙͚̹̠̱̄̆ͫ̊̏ͤͭͬ͊͑̑̃̈̉̇̒͘͘ͅm̘̪̺̯͎͖̙͔̞ͤ̋̅̋̓͂ͮ̓͑ͥ̐̓͒̓̈̚͘͢ȧ̛̇̓̉̓͢͏͎̺̱̭̫ͅs̸̰͚͔͙̠͖̣͉͍̲̼̘̼̣͙̺̫̟̹̅̏̓ͥͯ̃̂ͮ͑ͭ͂͊ͬ̅̋̚͝͞t̸̵̢̛̗̯͇͚̲̠͈̘̖̞̗̭͍͖̱̑̂̓͂͐ͭ̔͊ͭ͛̽̊͊̄̏́ͧ͐̾̕ě̵̞̘̦̪͙̭̠͚̻͕̣̮̒ͤ̃̽ͫ͐͐͒̌͆͒̈́ͮͮ͟ͅr̷̢͖̲͚̮͔͔͖͚͎͙̜͔̦̦̼̹͓̊̎ͪ̈́͛͛̀̀̕ș̟͓͖̒͗͊ͫ͌̾̐ͩͦ͌ͥ̊̽͟͝!̧̡̥̮̝̺͔̩̥̗͈̲̺̮̠̩̜̲ͩ̉̐͊͗ͫ͐͆͆̊ͫ̃ͫ̋̀̚͠ͅ!̵̲̺͉̙̠̜̲̠̯̺̥͔͖̔ͣͬͣ͌̏ͮͬ͠͝ͅ!̢̙̥̙̘̳̖̮̯̠͈̦̥̯͎̐̅̿ͭ̓̇̓͑͑̈ͦ̌͆ͭ̿ͤͮ̓
Post by: Xantalos on April 19, 2013, 09:35:45 pm
That's MY gig.
Plus this device reads it as Times New Roman. Heh.
Post by: mcclay on April 19, 2013, 09:53:14 pm
Not a god of spelling, I see. Let the Grammar Nukes rain upon you!Spelling is a pathetic idea made by humans, the gods have no use for it.
Post by: Remuthra on April 19, 2013, 09:58:12 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on April 19, 2013, 09:59:26 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on April 19, 2013, 10:16:17 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 19, 2013, 10:19:03 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 20, 2013, 03:32:11 am
Post by: Haspen on April 20, 2013, 03:52:09 am
And I don't even have Comic Sans.
The forums do :P
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 04:02:38 am
Post by: Skyrunner on April 20, 2013, 04:06:53 am
You can even use fonts that aren't on this forum, but on your computer! Yay for installing ALL THE FONTS!Others can't see it, I think.
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 04:09:31 am
You need to the TF2 fonts installed, I already knew that.You can even use fonts that aren't on this forum, but on your computer! Yay for installing ALL THE FONTS!Others can't see it, I think.
Post by: Sensei on April 20, 2013, 04:10:36 am
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 04:16:53 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 20, 2013, 04:56:57 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 20, 2013, 05:18:00 am
(http://i.imgur.com/V06VCwP.png).
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 20, 2013, 06:59:10 am
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 20, 2013, 07:06:08 am
Post by: Ameablable on April 20, 2013, 07:10:35 am
Ugh. Stop it.
Post by: DrPoo on April 20, 2013, 07:11:48 am
(http://i.imgur.com/V06VCwP.png)SILLУ УОЦ I КИОШ ТНIS SНIТ
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 07:14:08 am
((Hehe, both tfd and tdf are fonts :P))
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 20, 2013, 07:21:06 am
Post by: Dutchling on April 20, 2013, 07:25:19 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 20, 2013, 07:34:29 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 20, 2013, 07:44:30 am
Whenever I see faux cyrillic font I always feel sick because I keep wanting to read it phonetically in russian.So how would G.I.'s post sound like?
Post by: Owlbread on April 20, 2013, 09:41:36 am
So how would G.I.'s post sound like?
When I read it, it mashes together with English so it makes it even worse. This is it just in Russian, phonetic, with the Roman characters redacted.
Quote
Oo-ots ****oo amzya*sayy*, tnz kyazm**yy goiit sh*** *ayy*ts**n a** oo-otsya *zsa*iit *mrzya*a***t iizo**bzya* goiits! Mshananananananana!!!!
This is it with the extra Roman lettering so it feels like Ukrainian or something with those strange i's and such:
Quote
Oo-ots silloo amzyaisaiis, tnz kyazmlyy goiit shill vayyqtsisn all ootsya dzsadziit imrzyaialist iizolibzyal goiits! Mshanananananananana!!!!
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 09:57:39 am
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 10:18:35 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 20, 2013, 10:24:40 am
Enough. Middle Korea will not stand for your desecration of the One True Blackadder ITC. It seems it must be proven once and for all which font is superior. I challenge all of you to a Forum Battle Royale!I call referee!
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 10:42:25 am
Do you want to set up the thread, then, or should I set it up?Enough. Middle Korea will not stand for your desecration of the One True Blackadder ITC. It seems it must be proven once and for all which font is superior. I challenge all of you to a Forum Battle Royale!I call referee!
Post by: miauw62 on April 20, 2013, 10:56:07 am
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 11:14:14 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 20, 2013, 11:14:56 am
Separate thread is not necessary, since I hereby declare myself the winner. 8)Do you want to set up the thread, then, or should I set it up?Enough. Middle Korea will not stand for your desecration of the One True Blackadder ITC. It seems it must be proven once and for all which font is superior. I challenge all of you to a Forum Battle Royale!I call referee!
Edit: NOOO
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 11:15:33 am
Post by: Lagslayer on April 20, 2013, 12:11:19 pm
Post by: Bauglir on April 20, 2013, 12:16:51 pm
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 12:19:22 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on April 20, 2013, 12:19:32 pm
So, uh, how bout that North Korea?Oh yeah, that place.
Post by: misko27 on April 20, 2013, 12:21:28 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on April 20, 2013, 12:24:24 pm
There appeas to have been a small downward tick in rhetoric by the north. Possibility for Compromise slowly approaching possible.If they end up getting something out of this so they will calm down, I will be severely disappointed. I'd rather we just move in and crush the regime, even with the risks involved, than to just keep caving in to their demands. Appeasement does not work.
Post by: misko27 on April 20, 2013, 12:26:22 pm
That's not likely for right now at least. The US has put the line for compromise at "No nuclear weapons". If they agree to that, they deserve some reward.There appeas to have been a small downward tick in rhetoric by the north. Possibility for Compromise slowly approaching possible.If they end up getting something out of this so they will calm down, I will be severely disappointed. I'd rather we just move in and crush the regime, even with the risks involved, than to just keep caving in to their demands. Appeasement does not work.
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2013, 12:39:23 pm
Didn't we attempt this back in, say, 2002 or so? And how long did the fallout from that last?There appeas to have been a small downward tick in rhetoric by the north. Possibility for Compromise slowly approaching possible.If they end up getting something out of this so they will calm down, I will be severely disappointed. I'd rather we just move in and crush the regime, even with the risks involved, than to just keep caving in to their demands. Appeasement does not work.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 20, 2013, 12:43:09 pm
The risks involve 180,000 Best Koreans special forces running amok in South Korea along with the People's ridiculously large conscript army zerg rushing a mountain of guns. There wouldn't even be a remnant of a regime left to rebuild. Or rather there would, if Best Korea didn't feel like taking all its civilians down with them. Which they probably wouldn't mind. Currently compromise would be a much nicer alternative to lots of death.There appeas to have been a small downward tick in rhetoric by the north. Possibility for Compromise slowly approaching possible.If they end up getting something out of this so they will calm down, I will be severely disappointed. I'd rather we just move in and crush the regime, even with the risks involved, than to just keep caving in to their demands. Appeasement does not work.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 20, 2013, 01:00:05 pm
Post by: Toady One on April 20, 2013, 07:30:43 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 20, 2013, 07:40:29 pm
Regarding fonts and all that, please try to keep this on track, whatever that means in this case. If it veers all the way over into mush, it'll have to go.Toady has spoken. Regular fonts for me!
Post by: Remuthra on April 20, 2013, 07:41:54 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 20, 2013, 07:44:01 pm
And on that note, something did happen today: North Korea is preventing the South Korean workers at Kaesong from getting additional food, and current supplies are running low. (http://ph.news.yahoo.com/nkorea-blocks-skorean-food-delivery-kaesong-staff-032316726.html)
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2013, 07:46:51 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 20, 2013, 07:48:19 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2013, 07:51:00 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 20, 2013, 08:02:36 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2013, 08:11:40 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 20, 2013, 08:15:40 pm
Post by: alway on April 21, 2013, 01:47:53 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 21, 2013, 01:49:28 am
Post by: alway on April 21, 2013, 01:53:18 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22075222
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 21, 2013, 02:00:27 am
Post by: alway on April 21, 2013, 02:09:45 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 22, 2013, 01:54:59 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2013, 04:02:13 pm
Post by: Akura on April 22, 2013, 04:14:00 pm
Post by: Willfor on April 22, 2013, 04:16:54 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 22, 2013, 04:35:57 pm
As a rule, you do not give food to North Korea. Unless you are the Mongols. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5nlD2CR7tI)Mongolia will get tired of giving NK food, and then we will be faced with a Mongol, bored.
Post by: misko27 on April 22, 2013, 05:09:42 pm
Here is your answer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/22/north-koreas-official-response-to-boston-bombing-cites-conspiracy-site-world-net-daily/)
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2013, 06:44:15 pm
You heard it here first, folks. Giving North Korea food aid will topple their government and bring peace to the peninsula.
Post by: Xantalos on April 22, 2013, 06:47:28 pm
Post by: Max White on April 22, 2013, 06:54:00 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2013, 06:57:18 pm
Giving the regime food only exacerbates the problem. We need to give them nothing until it collapses.
Post by: Tellemurius on April 22, 2013, 06:59:45 pm
The population isn't going to get food. Food aid goes to party officials and the more valuable aspects of the military, not the common man.even this is too harsh, that government will let people starve to death until they are out of biscuits.
Giving the regime food only exacerbates the problem. We need to give them nothing until it collapses.
Post by: The Scout on April 22, 2013, 07:00:12 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on April 22, 2013, 07:00:58 pm
The population isn't going to get food. Food aid goes to party officials and the more valuable aspects of the military, not the common man.+1. No sense kicking the can down the road.
Giving the regime food only exacerbates the problem. We need to give them nothing until it collapses.
Post by: Sirus on April 22, 2013, 07:02:23 pm
Goddamnit, ninja'd by Scout.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2013, 07:03:39 pm
Drop crates full of food and propaganda in the country side. Eventually they'll be swayed to the side that actually feeds them.The government possesses absolute control of the region. Assuming you get planes past the hundreds of anti-aircraft emplacements scattered across North Korea, any food dropped is likely to be seized and used as it always is before the people can take or eat a significant amount.
If there were an active rebel faction who's location was known to us, then that would be a candidate for food drops, but there isn't.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2013, 07:04:09 pm
Post by: The Scout on April 22, 2013, 07:04:36 pm
If it weren't for the risk of getting shot down by paranoid army groups, I'd suggest dropping crates of food into the rural areas of N. Korea. The common people who need it most get the food, and with luck they'll start thinking a bit harder about supporting the current regime.TOO QUICK FOR YOU. Atleast the name finally makes some sense...
Goddamnit, ninja'd by Scout.
But that may not work. Apparently everyone there has it ingrained in their mind that Great leader is basically a god.
Post by: Sirus on April 22, 2013, 07:11:14 pm
Not everyone. Simple law of averages states that there must be some people in N. Korea who are fed up with what's going on and want it to stop. They just don't say so out loud, which means there's no way to help them from the outside.If it weren't for the risk of getting shot down by paranoid army groups, I'd suggest dropping crates of food into the rural areas of N. Korea. The common people who need it most get the food, and with luck they'll start thinking a bit harder about supporting the current regime.TOO QUICK FOR YOU. Atleast the name finally makes some sense...
Goddamnit, ninja'd by Scout.
But that may not work. Apparently everyone there has it ingrained in their mind that Great leader is basically a god.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 22, 2013, 07:34:18 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 22, 2013, 07:37:19 pm
ridiculously fast
extremely durableI think those things tend to be mutually exclusive when it comes to aircraft...
Post by: mainiac on April 22, 2013, 09:32:10 pm
Drop crates full of food and propaganda in the country side. Eventually they'll be swayed to the side that actually feeds them.
If there is a revolution then NK leadership would be excecuted. They know this. So what you are saying is basically to antagonize the crazy man.
Post by: Truean on April 22, 2013, 09:45:32 pm
Drop crates full of food and propaganda in the country side. Eventually they'll be swayed to the side that actually feeds them.
If there is a revolution then NK leadership would be excecuted. They know this. So what you are saying is basically to antagonize the crazy man.
One can dream....
I think between Lindsey Lohan's several never-to-be-sent sobriety party invitations, Florida's voting ballots, and instructions for how to use VCRs, we've got tons of paper laying around just waiting to be recycled into leaflets. If there's an inch of North Korea that isn't covered in pictures of food and instructions on how to off Crazy Leader Jr., we're doing it wrong.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2013, 09:47:48 pm
Post by: Truean on April 22, 2013, 09:53:41 pm
We could always sendlawyers, guns, and moneybooze, drugs, and Ayn Rand, the trifecta. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock)
FTFY
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2013, 09:56:01 pm
We could always sendlawyers, guns, and moneybooze, drugs, and Ayn Rand, the trifecta. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock)
FTFY
I was making a song reference/joke about Kim Jong Un. D:
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2013, 10:16:07 pm
So what we need to do is build a ridiculously fast, extremely durable plane designed specifically to drop food aid into North Korea?Or just use any of the bombers already in existence. Not that that would help much, NK wouldn't take kindly to bombers in their airspace.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 22, 2013, 10:52:31 pm
Post by: mainiac on April 22, 2013, 10:56:53 pm
Post by: Pnx on April 22, 2013, 11:47:09 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2013, 11:53:54 pm
Because let's be frank, aid drops do absolutely fuck-all to help the people of a nation with a government with this amount of control. In short, there aren't any "good" options, and the closest we have is probably something along the lines of "this knot is too complex for me to untie, I'll leave the work to time".
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2013, 12:03:30 am
Post by: alway on April 23, 2013, 12:07:31 am
"this knot is too complex for me to untie, I'll leave the work to spy agencies".FTFY.
Neither China nor anyone else will risk a direct confrontation. What will likely happen is covert ops en masse. The CIA could get involved, but, quite frankly, I see China as having a bigger finger in this pot. The US stands to gain... basically an angry China, a slightly more happy SK, and a huge stinking pile of management if they were to subterfuge their way into becoming the NK government. And the US stands to lose.... not all that much directly.
China stands to gain a friendly puppet government to buffer themselves from Westernized nations like SK and Japan if they were to succeed in subterfuge. And without subterfuge, they stand to lose the region's stability, their superpower status due to a regional arms race, an unstable country on their borders who may resort to threatening China itself with nuclear weapons, and so on.
China has more to gain from subterfuge and more to lose from abstaining from it. I strongly suspect if NK keeps up as it has been, China will turn it into a puppet state in their own best interests.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2013, 01:00:01 am
Post by: Max White on April 23, 2013, 01:03:18 am
I may never know a finer puppet...
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2013, 01:03:35 am
That does seem like one of the more likely possibilities. Frankly, it's also one of the least destructive solutions, if they can pull it off cleanly.In the words of the Spartans:
"If".
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2013, 01:08:56 am
It's not as if there isn't historical precedent. Look at all those CIA shenanigans in Latin America during the Cold War and tell me that China couldn't pull off something similar with less bloodshed. If they had plants in place ready to grab the reins all it would take would be a few quiet assassinations, and I don't believe for a moment that NK propaganda would convince their people to fight for the right to starve under the rule of the NK government rather than whatever they'd get under a Chinese puppet state.That does seem like one of the more likely possibilities. Frankly, it's also one of the least destructive solutions, if they can pull it off cleanly.In the words of the Spartans:
"If".
It's more likely than Kim Jong Un spontaneously deciding to dismantle his dictatorship or a UN-lead intervention/invasion that goes off without a hitch, anyhow.
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2013, 01:12:16 am
I'm not saying China can't pull it off, I'm just saying that the Great Leader seems to have a pretty powerful cult around him and it'll probably be a tough nut to crack.
Post by: Pnx on April 23, 2013, 01:15:44 am
Plus they've also gained quite a bit just from leaving the state as it is. Until recently they were perfectly happy to keep propping the state up, horrific conditions or no, but their refusal to drop the nuclear program seems to have driven them off the edge, which is why they've stopped sending aid.
Also creating a coup in NK is something that would be pretty hard to pull off. I mean you might be able to find a general you could support to do it, but what kind of government would you put in it's place? Wouldn't it just be exactly the same as the last one?
In all likelyhood if NK caves on the nuclear issue China would start up it's foreign aid again.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2013, 01:17:05 am
What, you mean like Cuba? Those kind of shenanigans?Cuba is a perfect example of what not to do, unless China wants to be the new focus of all the incompetent "intelligence" agency cracks. Think Guatemala circa 1954. Except motivated by ousting a lunatic rather than propping up corporate interests.
I'm not saying China can't pull it off, I'm just saying that the Great Leader seems to have a pretty powerful cult around him and it'll probably be a tough nut to crack.
As for the whole cult of personality thing... I honestly don't buy it. Probably for his grand-daddy, but at this point I doubt there are many North Koreans who don't know who's to blame for how shitty things are in NK.
Post by: Mech#4 on April 23, 2013, 03:34:58 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 23, 2013, 06:16:48 am
Post by: Fniff on April 23, 2013, 06:59:00 am
Post by: Sheb on April 23, 2013, 07:38:58 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 23, 2013, 08:35:17 am
Post by: nenjin on April 23, 2013, 08:51:30 am
What bothers me most about this whole NK mess is that Kim Jong Un was educated in a school in Switzerland, so he should kinda know what the world thinks about North Korea and that NK's current course of actions is just stupid.
See: Syria. Western-educated dictators know the rules of the outer world. It's what drives their policies in-country.
Post by: DJ on April 23, 2013, 10:14:54 am
Toning down the crazy is actually more dangerous than keeping it up, because it can easily be perceived as weakness. And then you wind up in front of a firing squad.
Post by: nenjin on April 23, 2013, 10:23:42 am
"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."
Toning down the crazy is actually more dangerous than keeping it up, because it can easily be perceived as weakness. And then you wind up in front of a firing squad.
Or you end up with democratic political reform. Which is arguably just as bad as a firing squad to dictators.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 23, 2013, 10:25:42 am
Post by: DJ on April 23, 2013, 10:30:35 am
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 23, 2013, 11:03:17 am
Post by: nenjin on April 23, 2013, 11:06:08 am
Meanwhile, NK would descend into pandemonium and the military would probably take over nominal control.
Post by: Pnx on April 23, 2013, 11:10:44 am
I'd say it's 50/50 between democratic reform and a long and bloody civil war after the dictator gets shot.No, honestly, the chances are far worse than that. The majority of revolutions wind up with the nation being in a worse or similar state to when it started the revolution.
See the French Revolution, The English Civil War, The recent revolution in Egypt, and many, many, other examples.
Post by: Descan on April 23, 2013, 11:23:42 am
Post by: MaximumZero on April 23, 2013, 11:24:24 am
What if Canada did it?The rest of the world would still blame the US. After all, we have to watch over the actions of our hat.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2013, 11:29:11 am
What if the U.S. pulled an Oddjob and threw Canada at North Korea? Is Canada secretly lined with razors?What if Canada did it?The rest of the world would still blame the US. After all, we have to watch over the actions of our hat.
Post by: Willfor on April 23, 2013, 11:38:16 am
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2013, 11:39:46 am
Have you seen the size of Canada? Razors or no razors, North Korea is flattened if we toss Canada at it :PWhat if the U.S. pulled an Oddjob and threw Canada at North Korea? Is Canada secretly lined with razors?What if Canada did it?The rest of the world would still blame the US. After all, we have to watch over the actions of our hat.
Post by: nenjin on April 23, 2013, 11:40:57 am
Post by: Descan on April 23, 2013, 11:41:54 am
Post by: Frumple on April 23, 2013, 11:44:01 am
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2013, 11:48:01 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2013, 12:18:50 pm
As a Canadian, one time I was at the apartment my band lives at and they'd spilled razor blades all over their floor. Does this count?My image of the Canadian is one of a person frolicking in hugs, maple syrup and razor blades.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 23, 2013, 01:29:00 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 23, 2013, 02:24:33 pm
Maybe we should ship the koreans some moose. They'd all end up trampled because they were dumb enough to let them out of their cages, but they couldn't claim it was an invasion as moose are neither domesticated nor easy to train. Their aggressive behavior would be perfectly natural. :P
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 02:26:21 pm
Don't forget the pet moose!why don't we send them deer instead? I see deer every day! but i rarley see mooses (or is it meese?)
Maybe we should ship the koreans some moose. They'd all end up trampled because they were dumb enough to let them out of their cages, but they couldn't claim it was an invasion as moose are neither domesticated nor easy to train. Their aggressive behavior would be perfectly natural. :P
Post by: Eric Blank on April 23, 2013, 02:29:47 pm
On a completely unrelated note, a cow moose once ate my family's Christmas ornaments out of a tree outside. Definitely didn't see that one coming.
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 02:33:28 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 23, 2013, 02:37:46 pm
We have too many deer. North Korea needs food. Deer can be used as food.
We send all our excess deer to North Korea, simultaneously solving their food crisis and our deer overpopulation crisis. Further, they get a deer overpopulation crisis, and they can't go anywhere without getting a deer stuck in whatever they're trying to use.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2013, 02:38:34 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 23, 2013, 02:39:30 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2013, 02:42:05 pm
Someone mails flour to the SK Ministry of Defense. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10514)Well, at least we can rule out North Korea.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 23, 2013, 02:42:30 pm
Someone mails flour to the SK Ministry of Defense. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10514)
How generous of whomever did that, considering the need for food in NK. :p
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 02:42:50 pm
Quote
Although the powder was later identified as wheat flour, the threatening intent was clear."we are gonna bake bread" is that the threat?
Post by: Willfor on April 23, 2013, 02:44:19 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2013, 02:44:49 pm
What the hell was the purpose of the flower?"This could have been anthrax or something else deadly" is the threat.QuoteAlthough the powder was later identified as wheat flour, the threatening intent was clear."we are gonna bake bread" is that the threat?
Unless the intent is "this could have been cocaine", in which case the sender obviously wants to party hard with the Ministry of Defense.
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2013, 02:47:05 pm
I remember a novel in which a hardcore cocaine user is killed by some hippies by shoving his face into a bag full of powdered laundry soap, or something along those lines (it's a really weird story). Maybe that was the intent? Pretend it's cocaine, only to be surprise!toxic chemical?What the hell was the purpose of the flower?"This could have been anthrax or something else deadly" is the threat.QuoteAlthough the powder was later identified as wheat flour, the threatening intent was clear."we are gonna bake bread" is that the threat?
Unless the intent is "this could have been cocaine", in which case the sender obviously wants to party hard with the Ministry of Defense.
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 02:48:06 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2013, 03:31:37 pm
What the hell was the purpose of the flower?Sort of like leaving a knife on someone's pillow instead of stabbing them in the face. Intimidation without direct action.QuoteAlthough the powder was later identified as wheat flour, the threatening intent was clear."we are gonna bake bread" is that the threat?
Post by: ibot66 on April 23, 2013, 03:46:22 pm
But it's likely a threat.
Post by: Frumple on April 23, 2013, 04:26:41 pm
Either that or it'd ferment and you'd have a land blanketed in grain beer or something. In which case alcohol poisoning for everyone!
Seriously though does anyone know what happens when you leave out a few square miles of dough?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 23, 2013, 04:29:08 pm
Post by: Haspen on April 23, 2013, 04:35:18 pm
The local ant nests add you to their panteon.
Sigging.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 23, 2013, 04:39:09 pm
And then the epidemic/plague caused by all that rotting bread would promptly the North Korea. Problem solved!Ask Randall? Email to what-if@xkcd.com, IIRC.
Either that or it'd ferment and you'd have a land blanketed in grain beer or something. In which cause alcohol poisoning for everyone!
Seriously though does anyone know what happens when you leave out a few square miles of dough?
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 23, 2013, 04:43:14 pm
And then the epidemic/plague caused by all that rotting bread would promptly the North Korea. Problem solved!Call the NSF. We need a grant pronto.
Either that or it'd ferment and you'd have a land blanketed in grain beer or something. In which cause alcohol poisoning for everyone!
Seriously though does anyone know what happens when you leave out a few square miles of dough?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 23, 2013, 04:49:41 pm
We don't have too many deer, they'd be extinct if not for regulated hunting seasons.Speak for your own state, but Michigan has too many.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 23, 2013, 04:58:38 pm
Where I live, if you want to hunt, all you have to do is drive at a high speed. I've already been in a car more times then I can count that has crashed into deer. And I've barely avoided hitting them multiple times in my less that's one year driving time.We don't have too many deer, they'd be extinct if not for regulated hunting seasons.Speak for your own state, but Michigan has too many.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2013, 05:00:33 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 05:02:12 pm
Where I live, if you want to hunt, all you have to do is drive at a high speed. I've already been in a car more times then I can count that has crashed into deer. And I've barely avoided hitting them multiple times in my less that's one year driving time.We don't have too many deer, they'd be extinct if not for regulated hunting seasons.Speak for your own state, but Michigan has too many.
Thats nothing. I saw a transport hit a deer soo hard its head fell off!
Post by: Scelly9 on April 23, 2013, 05:04:24 pm
About every 5-10 miles on our highway, there's a 15-30 foot blood stain from a deer, possibly including ground meat.Where I live, if you want to hunt, all you have to do is drive at a high speed. I've already been in a car more times then I can count that has crashed into deer. And I've barely avoided hitting them multiple times in my less that's one year driving time.We don't have too many deer, they'd be extinct if not for regulated hunting seasons.Speak for your own state, but Michigan has too many.
Thats nothing. I saw a transport hit a deer soo hard its head fell off!
Post by: Ameablable on April 23, 2013, 05:07:59 pm
Down with north korea!
Post by: MaximumZero on April 23, 2013, 05:09:13 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 23, 2013, 05:23:50 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2013, 06:10:53 pm
Post by: Dutchling on April 23, 2013, 06:11:51 pm
It was alive, and it looked like it didn't give a fuck. Pretty cool. First time I saw a deer :3.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 23, 2013, 07:02:52 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 23, 2013, 08:35:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pnx on April 23, 2013, 08:49:14 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2013, 12:54:04 am
In an attempt to de-rail the thread, here's this:I like what they've done with the decoSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: mainiac on April 24, 2013, 01:49:47 am
A saw a deer on the road once.
It was alive, and it looked like it didn't give a fuck. Pretty cool. First time I saw a deer :3.
My girlfriend once hit a car with her car. She thought it was moving out of the way but suddenly it planted it's feet and was all like "Our house!" in the middle of the street.
Post by: Scelly9 on April 24, 2013, 01:52:09 am
Let's play spot the typo!A saw a deer on the road once.
It was alive, and it looked like it didn't give a fuck. Pretty cool. First time I saw a deer :3.
My girlfriend once hit a car with her car. She thought it was moving out of the way but suddenly it planted it's feet and was all like "Our house!" in the middle of the street.
Quote
My girlfriend once hit a car with her car.Winner!
Post by: mainiac on April 24, 2013, 02:20:05 am
Post by: Siquo on April 24, 2013, 05:21:01 am
My girlfriend once hit a car with her car. She thought it was moving out of the way but suddenly it planted it's feet and was all like "Our house!" in the middle of the street.That's just madness.
Post by: werty892 on April 24, 2013, 05:23:12 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Max White on April 24, 2013, 05:30:46 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 24, 2013, 05:40:21 am
You know what would be a really dick move? Sending over lots and lots of paprika. Nothing to put it on, just paprika.Whatabout a crate full of nothing but Trinidad Moruga Scorpion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_Moruga_Scorpion)?
Post by: Hubris Incalculable on April 24, 2013, 08:08:13 am
Ooh! seed-bomb them with it, and ensure a maximum spread over all of best Korea, and then, a few months later, PEPPERS!!!You know what would be a really dick move? Sending over lots and lots of paprika. Nothing to put it on, just paprika.Whatabout a crate full of nothing but Trinidad Moruga Scorpion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_Moruga_Scorpion)?
Post by: Gamerlord on April 24, 2013, 08:11:20 am
Post by: Sheb on April 24, 2013, 09:11:00 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2013, 09:12:23 am
Question: Would it be a warcrime to dust the air with some substance incredibly high on the Scoville thingy? Would that be chemical warfare or food(ical?) warfare?
Depends. It could be classified as chemical warfare.
Hell, if you overdo it it could even be classified as weaponized geoengineering, which is a serious warcrime.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 24, 2013, 09:14:32 am
Try having nothing to eat but that. :p
Post by: Lagslayer on April 24, 2013, 09:18:10 am
Question: Would it be a warcrime to dust the air with some substance incredibly high on the Scoville thingy? Would that be chemical warfare or food(ical?) warfare?<inset picture of casually pepper spray cop spraying NK>
Post by: kahn1234 on April 24, 2013, 10:26:30 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 24, 2013, 11:26:09 am
they should carpet bomb North Korea with bananas.
Bananas you say? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bCyIAsSid8)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2013, 11:29:23 am
weaponized geoengineeringThis is a thing
Humanity makes me
proud
Terrified
But proud
Ultimately that
we haven't done it
too much
yet
Good job
Humanity
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2013, 11:32:19 am
The US used it a bit in the Vietnam wars, but that's all.
Post by: Ameablable on April 24, 2013, 12:13:57 pm
whats with the weird spacing?weaponized geoengineeringThis is a thing
Humanity makes me
proud
Terrified
But proud
Ultimately that
we haven't done it
too much
yet
Good job
Humanity
Post by: Sirus on April 24, 2013, 12:15:03 pm
Free-style poetry?whats with the weird spacing?weaponized geoengineeringThis is a thing
Humanity makes me
proud
Terrified
But proud
Ultimately that
we haven't done it
too much
yet
Good job
Humanity
Post by: Ameablable on April 24, 2013, 12:16:30 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 12:26:25 pm
You know what would be a really dick move? Sending over lots and lots of paprika. Nothing to put it on, just paprika.I'm pretty sure that would go in the Guinness book of world records as "meanest thing to do EVER".
Post by: Ameablable on April 24, 2013, 12:27:40 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2013, 12:33:45 pm
i thought it was a thing so i typed: THpTBUwtyGH into google. a bunch of Vietnamese pages came upJust as planned.
Post by: Ameablable on April 24, 2013, 12:36:42 pm
so it was a plot against me!i thought it was a thing so i typed: THpTBUwtyGH into google. a bunch of Vietnamese pages came upJust as planned.
so is this (https://vi-vn.facebook.com/thanhhai.doan.1232) you?
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 24, 2013, 01:53:57 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 24, 2013, 02:34:56 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 03:53:55 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 24, 2013, 03:55:44 pm
So we can't, say, export kudzu to North Korea? Damn.There's probably already kudzu in North Korea. The plant originated in Japan, so it wouldn't have to go far.
Post by: Remuthra on April 24, 2013, 03:58:09 pm
North Korea Now: Shhh, nothing going on in poor North Korea. Not trying to nuke you all or anything.
Is this a step up or down in country maturity?
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 03:59:51 pm
North Korea a Week Ago: You want to try anything? We're the best country in the world! We will nuke you all!I've stated my answer. It makes me scared.
North Korea Now: Shhh, nothing going on in poor North Korea. Not trying to nuke you all or anything.
Is this a step up or down in country maturity?
Post by: ibot66 on April 24, 2013, 04:14:23 pm
What the hell?
DID THEY JUST TRICK US?
I think they tried ti trick us by being bombastic and stepping down.
BRB, going to make bomb shelter.
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 05:22:42 pm
Sucks to be LA and California in general though. Don't worry, we'll build a memorial to your sacrifice.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 24, 2013, 06:58:27 pm
NYC is covered with themem, (as in, there are ones on literally every block if you know where to look, and in most of the schools), and NYC is to far for the north to hit reliably, so I'm safe.[Implying NK would have a snowball's chance in hell pulling off what WW2 Japan couldn't]
Sucks to be LA and California in general though. Don't worry, we'll build a memorial to your sacrifice.
Post by: nenjin on April 24, 2013, 07:00:37 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on April 24, 2013, 07:10:06 pm
NK would probably grateful if we gave them an indigenous plant they could that grew despite, well, anything.Apparently, it's edible, too. How's about that?
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 24, 2013, 07:12:02 pm
NK would probably grateful if we gave them an indigenous plant they could that grew despite, well, anything.NK would still mess it up. Not even kudzu could survive politics at it's finest.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 24, 2013, 07:14:09 pm
NK would probably grateful if we gave them an indigenous plant they could that grew despite, well, anything.That wouldn't actually happen. Kudzu doesn't grow out of control in its native environment, which Korea is similar enough to.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 24, 2013, 07:18:44 pm
Who wants to blaze it with some pot-and-kudzu salad?
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 07:20:47 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 24, 2013, 07:22:40 pm
Hm... Do we have a plant here that would grow like Amerikudzu in the North Korean environment?NK would probably grateful if we gave them an indigenous plant they could that grew despite, well, anything.That wouldn't actually happen. Kudzu doesn't grow out of control in its native environment, which Korea is similar enough to.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 24, 2013, 07:24:20 pm
Purple loosestrife seems to do that everywhere.Hm... Do we have a plant here that would grow like Amerikudzu in the North Korean environment?NK would probably grateful if we gave them an indigenous plant they could that grew despite, well, anything.That wouldn't actually happen. Kudzu doesn't grow out of control in its native environment, which Korea is similar enough to.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 24, 2013, 07:26:44 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 24, 2013, 07:29:36 pm
Ooh, how about dandelions? Those things are obnoxious.I'm sure those are nutritious, but perhaps dropping massive amounts of dandelion seeds on North Korea would cause more problems then they help (North Korea: "THIS IS A DECLARATION OF PLANT-WAR. WE SHALL FIGHT IN THE FRUIT TREES, ON OUR GARDENS, IN OUR GREENHOUSES.").
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 25, 2013, 12:56:14 am
what has science done
Post by: Sheb on April 25, 2013, 01:07:34 am
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:08:16 pm
at 1:00... is that computer generated?
Post by: Sirus on April 25, 2013, 03:10:44 pm
Kim Jong un releases a video of him attending North Korea's military anniversary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/apr/25/kim-jong-un-military-anniversary-video)I dunno. Looks downright uncanny O_o
at 1:00... is that computer generated?
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:11:56 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 25, 2013, 03:18:28 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 25, 2013, 03:18:44 pm
Kim Jong un releases a video of him attending North Korea's military anniversary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/apr/25/kim-jong-un-military-anniversary-video)
at 1:00... is that computer generated?
Heh, those feeble imitations of jet color streams. Kinda pathetic, really.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 25, 2013, 03:25:11 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:28:25 pm
I don't think it's computer generated, it's just the North Koreans being creepy with their perfect lock-step and giant blank sidewalks.but they all look the exact same.
unless thats sarcasm then i retract my statement
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 25, 2013, 03:30:06 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:32:04 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 25, 2013, 03:33:09 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:35:09 pm
Post by: Bauglir on April 25, 2013, 03:39:05 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 03:40:35 pm
Post by: Remuthra on April 25, 2013, 03:41:17 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 25, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 25, 2013, 03:47:11 pm
...uh.
Disregard that, it must be the OCD.
Post by: The Scout on April 25, 2013, 05:28:21 pm
Post by: Onlyhestands on April 25, 2013, 07:02:49 pm
Kim Jong un releases a video of him attending North Korea's military anniversary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/apr/25/kim-jong-un-military-anniversary-video)What really gets me is the "young couples dancing"
at 1:00... is that computer generated?
They look way too drilled and rehearsed, nothing like actual couples. But who would expect reality out of a propaganda flick anyways?
Post by: Lagslayer on April 25, 2013, 09:51:12 pm
Post by: Descan on April 25, 2013, 09:55:41 pm
Then at the eleventh (23rd?) hour, fly to Seoul and turn myself in.
North Korea gets beheaded, I get set up for life (Dude is the owner of a country, no matter how sucky. Richer than I am at least. I just need a few million dollars, the rest can go to the Ministry of Unification or Reconstruction efforts) and everyone is happy.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on April 25, 2013, 09:56:37 pm
scenario: a week from now, you will switch bodies with Kim Jong-Un for 24 hours. How will you prepare and what would you do during your 24 hour reign?
Isn't that a Rob Schneider made-for-airlines movie?
Post by: Ameablable on April 25, 2013, 09:56:44 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on April 25, 2013, 10:04:19 pm
What really gets me is the "young couples dancing"Pretty sure I've seen that exact scene before.
They look way too drilled and rehearsed, nothing like actual couples. But who would expect reality out of a propaganda flick anyways?
Reminds me of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoSFQb5HVk).
Post by: Bauglir on April 25, 2013, 10:48:06 pm
Is... is some of that the same exact footage?What really gets me is the "young couples dancing"Pretty sure I've seen that exact scene before.
They look way too drilled and rehearsed, nothing like actual couples. But who would expect reality out of a propaganda flick anyways?
Reminds me of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoSFQb5HVk).
Post by: misko27 on April 25, 2013, 11:00:09 pm
And then? OHOHOH~ Very simple. Push things too far. Force the US or SK to overplay it's hand. Respond, in an appropriate way. Push for immediate removal of sanctions, and issue ultimatum for their removal and beggining of talks at 20 hours. If they concede, immediately jump start peace, nuclear and economic talks while pouring money into my account in such a way as to take advantage of the new found peace.
If they say no, pour money into assets that will do much better in the post nuclear-holocaust world. Begin strikes as far as capabilities allow at 22 hours.
,Either way, sit back and enjoy the fruits and poisons of my labor. Isn't tbere a twilight zone episode like this, but without the switching back, and with hitler?
Post by: Pnx on April 25, 2013, 11:01:21 pm
Say what you will about the nation, I don't think anybody does those kind of mass drills the way they do... It's honestly pretty scary.
Kim Jong un releases a video of him attending North Korea's military anniversary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/apr/25/kim-jong-un-military-anniversary-video)As for whether that part of it was faked, I honestly doubt it, I think it was just shot using a camera crane... In fact I'm guessing that "#1 Dad" probably went to very great lengths to get a crane to shoot shots like that from abroad.
at 1:00... is that computer generated?
Post by: Karlito on April 26, 2013, 01:38:52 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 26, 2013, 01:40:28 am
Yeah, the one thing North Korea does well is military parades. They wouldn't need to fake that shot.Generally all militaries tend to do well at parades. It's sort of how they size each other up.
'Here we see the North Korean military responding to the South Koreans' excellent dance number with 'Kim Jong-Un uses the warp...'
Post by: Mech#4 on April 26, 2013, 02:47:07 am
Yeah, the one thing North Korea does well is military parades. They wouldn't need to fake that shot.Generally all militaries tend to do well at parades. It's sort of how they size each other up.
'Here we see the North Korean military responding to the South Koreans' excellent dance number with 'Kim Jong-Un uses the warp...'
So it's like a dance done by a Peacock? :P
Post by: DJ on April 26, 2013, 02:49:47 am
Post by: Descan on April 26, 2013, 08:07:34 am
'Course, I'd be all for it just to see Queen Lizzy breakdancing. Girl can probably mooooove, yo~!
Post by: Pyre on April 26, 2013, 10:09:06 am
God damnit Bay12.
Post by: Owlbread on April 26, 2013, 10:33:14 am
And now all I can think of is Putin doing the robot...
God damnit Bay12.
I know he's actually a T-800 so that makes sense, but I would have said something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnJS_zkaMY
Perhaps he could take a leaf out of his puppet-tyrant Ramzan Kadyrov's book, the President of Chechnya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzu69mlvnI
Post by: Descan on April 26, 2013, 10:36:44 am
CALL FOR UNILATERAL CARD DISARMAMENT! CARDS FOR CUPS, CARDS FOR CUPS!
Post by: Pnx on April 26, 2013, 11:12:52 am
Yeah, but I don't think anyone does parades like NK does parades. For example hold this Chinese parade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru-xQac_sWw) in comparison, they have the same uniform lock step, they have similar drills, but there's some distinct differences. The heads aren't all held in the exact same position, they don't seem quite as uniform in skin colour and faces, and then there's the timing of their drills...Yeah, the one thing North Korea does well is military parades. They wouldn't need to fake that shot.Generally all militaries tend to do well at parades. It's sort of how they size each other up.
'Here we see the North Korean military responding to the South Koreans' excellent dance number with 'Kim Jong-Un uses the warp...'
The Chinese are using voice commands to signal when everyone is supposed to perform their drill, with the officers at the front shouting, then the soldiers behind them shouting out together, allowing them to synchronise their rhythm. With the NK parades, there's no shouting, as near as I can figure they just count the exact number of steps they've taken, then when they reach a certain number they engage their drill at the exact same time... It's honestly sort of creepy. The NK parade gives me the chills, far more than the Chinese parade does (which honestly feels rather tame to me), though that might have something to do with me knowing that the Chinese one is a volunteer army, whereas the NK one is done by people who were mostly conscripted and forced to do this.
Post by: Mech#4 on April 26, 2013, 11:27:35 am
Post by: AlmightyOne on April 26, 2013, 12:29:56 pm
But now this guy after coming into power is doing stuff like, showing videos of him and his generals plotting over the main cities of US, He is clearly out of his mind. His father would have known what implications this would cause, such reckless provocations and would have atleast made some rational decisions.
Post by: Ameablable on April 26, 2013, 12:33:26 pm
Edit: what an awful photo of that dude in the article
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 26, 2013, 03:33:28 pm
Yeah, but I don't think anyone does parades like NK does parades. For example hold this Chinese parade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru-xQac_sWw) in comparison, they have the same uniform lock step, they have similar drills, but there's some distinct differences. The heads aren't all held in the exact same position, they don't seem quite as uniform in skin colour and faces, and then there's the timing of their drills...1. Their heads do keep all on the same level.
2. North Korea has laws quite literally mandating sameness.
3. We see one minute of North Korean drills, of which most of it is missing.
The Chinese are using voice commands to signal when everyone is supposed to perform their drill, with the officers at the front shouting, then the soldiers behind them shouting out together, allowing them to synchronise their rhythm. With the NK parades, there's no shouting, as near as I can figure they just count the exact number of steps they've taken, then when they reach a certain number they engage their drill at the exact same time...Silent drills are pretty much a standard for all countries. Not withstanding editing which cuts out any signs of adequacy. We're not seeing them form up in the square or even dress, we only see the most impressive parts of the parade. A mere few seconds.
It's honestly sort of creepy. The NK parade gives me the chills, far more than the Chinese parade does (which honestly feels rather tame to me), though that might have something to do with me knowing that the Chinese one is a volunteer army, whereas the NK one is done by people who were mostly conscripted and forced to do this.Sincerely I feel that the NK parade left me rather underwhelmed, especially when compared to other country's parades:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAZ37gWyZ-4 <- RM. Guy with crutches joins in on the drill. Legendary crutch walker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY <- USMC. No 'vocal commands,' = scary? Awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtspS-qliU <- RG. Single handedly schools the entire North Korean military in parade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgBCT-6AoZE <- Various. Cheeky hip hip hurrah in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboe6tygXLg <- Various. Much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxTBK7jI1s <- USA. Wipe the floor with NKPGA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4c6Ms9Y90 <- RM. Put NKPGA to shame.
IT'S LIKE YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING NK
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 26, 2013, 04:16:14 pm
A lot of the 'Silent' drill, in my experience at least, is reliant on hearing the sounds of the people around you. Guy's piece hits the deck, then it's time for yours to do so too. Person in front of you starts marching, you wait for their piece to hit the ground a second time, then you start marching. There is also a large amount of step counting, along with needing to rely a good bit on peripheral vision. With the right know how, it's even possible to make a bunch of inept high school students do it!
It get's much more complicated the more people you put in, thou, as even timing simple movements can become a challenge. That's why you see mostly individuals or small squads tossing their pieces blindly behind them for another guy to catch, and not entire platoons doing that.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 26, 2013, 05:08:12 pm
You're comparing military parades with drill team shows, which are two different kind of events.It's honestly sort of creepy. The NK parade gives me the chills, far more than the Chinese parade does (which honestly feels rather tame to me), though that might have something to do with me knowing that the Chinese one is a volunteer army, whereas the NK one is done by people who were mostly conscripted and forced to do this.Sincerely I feel that the NK parade left me rather underwhelmed, especially when compared to other country's parades:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAZ37gWyZ-4 <- RM. Guy with crutches joins in on the drill. Legendary crutch walker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY <- USMC. No 'vocal commands,' = scary? Awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtspS-qliU <- RG. Single handedly schools the entire North Korean military in parade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgBCT-6AoZE <- Various. Cheeky hip hip hurrah in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboe6tygXLg <- Various. Much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxTBK7jI1s <- USA. Wipe the floor with NKPGA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4c6Ms9Y90 <- RM. Put NKPGA to shame.
IT'S LIKE YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING NK
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
On a completely unrelated note, I've noticed that every time Kim Jong-un shows up at a public event, a specific leitmotif is played.
For example, it can be heard here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJD0MR_Nuc4) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6yqUpX3tYw&feature=player_detailpage#t=1667s).
Post by: Owlbread on April 26, 2013, 07:34:20 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 26, 2013, 08:06:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboe6tygXLg <- Various. Much better.All those glorious hats surely put North Korea's petty caps to shame.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2013, 02:53:36 am
You're comparing military parades with drill team shows, which are two different kind of events.I included a parade but they're generally less exciting than those. In any case they're also much easier to find, most have a parade during memorials, during important events like elections or holidays, passing out days, trooping colours e.t.c.
Still wins over NK.
I'm not sure if being on a drill team makes you appreciate what those guys to more, or less.It's more to do with memory than anything else in silent drills. Silent drills tend to be noisy things when it actually comes down to performing it, it's just devoid of orders. The counting is probably something the soldiers doing those drills already do passively if they've done lots of marching before that and using your peripheral to gauge your own steps and dressing can look messy and often times ruin the synchronization. It's really awesome watching them keep time, their feet hover above the ground for a half-step before they move forwards.
A lot of the 'Silent' drill, in my experience at least, is reliant on hearing the sounds of the people around you. Guy's piece hits the deck, then it's time for yours to do so too. Person in front of you starts marching, you wait for their piece to hit the ground a second time, then you start marching. There is also a large amount of step counting, along with needing to rely a good bit on peripheral vision. With the right know how, it's even possible to make a bunch of inept high school students do it!
It get's much more complicated the more people you put in, thou, as even timing simple movements can become a challenge. That's why you see mostly individuals or small squads tossing their pieces blindly behind them for another guy to catch, and not entire platoons doing that.
The point was that all we saw of the NKPGA was marching forwards with eyes right and insufficient hat.
That show of skill, memory and prowess pales in comparison to just about everyone else's military.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 27, 2013, 03:56:13 am
Well, "No Motherland Without You" was Kim jong-il's personal song. Perhaps it is a jingle related to Kim jong-un's personal song.
Apparently this jingle dates back to the days of Kim Il-sung. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLnM_FvNlmo)
Post by: AlmightyOne on April 27, 2013, 08:18:57 am
White death? was that his name?-snip-Finland doesn't need one. They have badass snipers.
oh he was so badass, what a kill count he had.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2013, 08:29:27 am
Simo Hayha was his name, White death was his epithet.White death? was that his name?-snip-Finland doesn't need one. They have badass snipers.
oh he was so badass, what a kill count he had.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 27, 2013, 09:25:58 am
Post by: mainiac on April 27, 2013, 10:19:21 am
Post by: Pnx on April 27, 2013, 11:33:17 am
Post by: Dutchling on April 27, 2013, 12:18:40 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2013, 12:23:34 pm
Wasn't there going to be a war at April 15? Did I miss it D:?War was cancelled due to bad weather and the fear of missing upcoming soaps.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 27, 2013, 01:27:53 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2013, 01:38:35 pm
Not only are those dastardly teachers' unions turning our kids gay and indoctrinating them into evolution, they're also teaming up with Anonymous to attack Best Korea. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-04-26-0028&chAction=T) Is there anything they won't stoop to?Absolutely adorable. NK playing the victim card and talking about oppressing freedoms in the same sentence is cute.
Post by: misko27 on April 27, 2013, 03:49:18 pm
Korea to indict detained American, Death Penalty possible (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/27/american-death-penalty-north-korea)
So, this is their current plan.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 27, 2013, 04:05:37 pm
You stole the words from my mouth. I don't know how a repressive dictatorship's propaganda can be adorable, but it is.Not only are those dastardly teachers' unions turning our kids gay and indoctrinating them into evolution, they're also teaming up with Anonymous to attack Best Korea. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-04-26-0028&chAction=T) Is there anything they won't stoop to?Absolutely adorable. NK playing the victim card and talking about oppressing freedoms in the same sentence is cute.
Quote
The plot weavers on the Internet and the south Korean puppet wire-pullers shall pay dearly for their crimes.
Post by: Xantalos on April 27, 2013, 04:50:09 pm
Daww. I want a pet like that!You stole the words from my mouth. I don't know how a repressive dictatorship's propaganda can be adorable, but it is.Not only are those dastardly teachers' unions turning our kids gay and indoctrinating them into evolution, they're also teaming up with Anonymous to attack Best Korea. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-04-26-0028&chAction=T) Is there anything they won't stoop to?Absolutely adorable. NK playing the victim card and talking about oppressing freedoms in the same sentence is cute.QuoteThe plot weavers on the Internet and the south Korean puppet wire-pullers shall pay dearly for their crimes.
Well, aside from my homicidal other pet.
Post by: misko27 on April 27, 2013, 10:01:39 pm
Post by: Felius on April 27, 2013, 11:06:34 pm
Seriously folks. North Korea has US national in custody, faces death penalty for plotting to overthrow government. Trial soon, although they claim he has admitted his guilt.Urgh. Now to see if the US will take serious offense. I'm guessing that as long as NK doesn't do a propaganda spectacle of it the US won't take any real action, but then again expecting NK not to do a propaganda spectacle is asking a lot...
Post by: Eric Blank on April 27, 2013, 11:14:13 pm
Just a hunch I suppose.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 27, 2013, 11:49:24 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2013, 02:43:27 am
Seriously folks. North Korea has US national in custody, faces death penalty for plotting to overthrow government. Trial soon, although they claim he has admitted his guilt.The trial's already decided if he's guilty or not if anything's to go by a corrupt regime. America may not go to war over this but I'm expectantly waiting to catch sight of a Gaddafi style attempted decapitation strike.
Post by: tahujdt on April 28, 2013, 02:45:11 am
Trust me, this one won't be "attempted".Seriously folks. North Korea has US national in custody, faces death penalty for plotting to overthrow government. Trial soon, although they claim he has admitted his guilt.The trial's already decided if he's guilty or not if anything's to go by a corrupt regime. America may not go to war over this but I'm expectantly waiting to catch sight of a Gaddafi style attempted decapitation strike.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 28, 2013, 03:31:25 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 08:21:38 am
George Galloway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galloway), everyone's favourite demagogue, has interesting words for the Korean peninsula where he claims that it is NATO aggression, not North Korean aggression, that is the main source of this problem.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 28, 2013, 09:37:58 am
Quote
...and on American warships, constantly maneuvering, patrolling, and war-gaming around the seas...
He makes it sound like they're a jolly lot of sailors playing tabletop games on the high seas.
On a more serious note, what gives him away is the repetition of "puppet state" in reference to South Korea. It would be more believable if Galloway would stick to the nuclear approach, because that's almost within sight of being reasonable.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 28, 2013, 09:42:50 am
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 09:48:52 am
On a more serious note, what gives him away is the repetition of "puppet state" in reference to South Korea. It would be more believable if Galloway would stick to the nuclear approach, because that's almost within sight of being reasonable.
Yes, I agree completely. There's lots of little things like that with Mr. Galloway - lots of little things that give him away. But yes, I do find it interesting that North Korea's proposals for a Korean confederation and complete disarmament do put them on a moral high-ground when compared with the Americans. The fear would of course be whether the North would seize the day and conquer the South with military might, but is that so certain?
Post by: Vactor on April 28, 2013, 11:22:13 am
But yes, I do find it interesting that North Korea's proposals for a Korean confederation and complete disarmament do put them on a moral high-ground when compared with the Americans. The fear would of course be whether the North would seize the day and conquer the South with military might, but is that so certain?
Because if there's one thing North Korea is known for, its the value of their promises. Unfortunately this promise would conflict with their other promises such as turning Seoul into a sea of flames.
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 01:17:25 pm
Because if there's one thing North Korea is known for, its the value of their promises. Unfortunately this promise would conflict with their other promises such as turning Seoul into a sea of flames.
When though have they broken a promise outright in recent years?
Post by: Dutchling on April 28, 2013, 01:23:25 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 28, 2013, 01:31:43 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2013, 02:12:30 pm
I've noticed that when Western news agencies quote the official North Korean announcements, they edit them to make North Korea look more aggressive.Western news loves fear mongering. It's not specific to the topic at hand.
'SHORTAGE OF SALT may SOON LEAD TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD!'
'SUPER RETROVIRAL ANTIOBIOTIC RESISTANCE BUGS possibly FLYING TOWARDS YOUR CHILDREN AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!'
'WE'RE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN CERTAIN DEATH AND HOSPITALS, BUT HERE'S SOME DATA that does not represent any scientific fact THAT SAYS JUST THAT.'
'YOUR MOMMY AND DADDY ARE CERTAIN TO DIE IN A HORRIBLE NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST if countries enacted a global nuclear war. AS PROVEN BY LEADING FIGURE'S STATISTICS, leading figures not named.'
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 02:20:46 pm
Western news loves fear mongering. It's not specific to the topic at hand.
'SHORTAGE OF SALT may SOON LEAD TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD!'
'SUPER RETROVIRAL ANTIOBIOTIC RESISTANCE BUGS possibly FLYING TOWARDS YOUR CHILDREN AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!'
'WE'RE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN CERTAIN DEATH AND HOSPITALS, BUT HERE'S SOME DATA that does not represent any scientific fact THAT SAYS JUST THAT.'
'YOUR MOMMY AND DADDY ARE CERTAIN TO DIE IN A HORRIBLE NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST if countries enacted a global nuclear war. AS PROVEN BY LEADING FIGURE'S STATISTICS, leading figures not named.'
Very true. I was going to bring up my own experiences with fear mongering and sensationalism of that exact sort in newspapers but I'm concerned that I'd derail the thread completely considering it's not related to the Korean situation.
But yes - I think we're going to have to take a lot of the newspaper articles out there on the issue with a pinch of salt.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 28, 2013, 02:24:52 pm
Western news loves fear mongering. It's not specific to the topic at hand.
'SHORTAGE OF SALT may SOON LEAD TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD!'
'SUPER RETROVIRAL ANTIOBIOTIC RESISTANCE BUGS possibly FLYING TOWARDS YOUR CHILDREN AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!'
'WE'RE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN CERTAIN DEATH AND HOSPITALS, BUT HERE'S SOME DATA that does not represent any scientific fact THAT SAYS JUST THAT.'
'YOUR MOMMY AND DADDY ARE CERTAIN TO DIE IN A HORRIBLE NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST if countries enacted a global nuclear war. AS PROVEN BY LEADING FIGURE'S STATISTICS, leading figures not named.'
Very true. I was going to bring up my own experiences with fear mongering and sensationalism of that exact sort in newspapers but I'm concerned that I'd derail the thread completely considering it's not related to the Korean situation.
But yes - I think we're going to have to take a lot of the newspaper articles out there on the issue with a pinch of salt.
I would have suggested a truckload.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2013, 02:27:07 pm
I would have suggested a truckload.DUE TO THE SHORTAGE OF SALT, NEWSPAPERS MUST NOW BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE
THIS WILL possibly RESULT IN EVERYONE GETTING CANCER
One thing I don't get is why the media will provoke hostility between people just because it's a slow news day. Where is the morality?
Post by: Frumple on April 28, 2013, 02:30:07 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 28, 2013, 02:50:12 pm
Buried under the profit margin, of course. These things aren't there to provide the news, they're there to make a buck. News just happens to be how they go about doing it.Also, news channels justify specific political and military actions of the current government (or wealthy sponsors calling the shots within the government).
Post by: mainiac on April 28, 2013, 03:17:53 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2013, 03:21:00 pm
One should seldom attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by human imperfection and short deadlines.Except where there would be overwhelming evidence to suggest that the news manufactures controversies and fear in order to create a self perpetuating story that furthers divides and increases the probability of conflict, which is good news for the news.
Post by: misko27 on April 28, 2013, 03:32:43 pm
Quote from: Conan o'Brien
“As I look around the room and see all the media here tonight, I realize this is just one big high school cafeteria. That’s all it is,” he said. “Think about it. Fox is the jocks, MSNBC is the nerds. … NPR is the table for kids with peanut allergies. Al Jazeera is the weird foreign exchange student nobody talks to.”
“And print media, I didn’t forget you,” he said. “You’re the poor kid who died sophomore year in a car crash. Cheer up, we dedicated the yearbook to you.”
Besides, LW, At keep in mind, not everyone is CNN.
Post by: tahujdt on April 28, 2013, 03:36:20 pm
Relevant:I don't think that Fox counts as the jocks, if only b/c they are vastly outnumbered by other stations.Quote from: Conan o'Brien“As I look around the room and see all the media here tonight, I realize this is just one big high school cafeteria. That’s all it is,” he said. “Think about it. Fox is the jocks, MSNBC is the nerds. … NPR is the table for kids with peanut allergies. Al Jazeera is the weird foreign exchange student nobody talks to.”
“And print media, I didn’t forget you,” he said. “You’re the poor kid who died sophomore year in a car crash. Cheer up, we dedicated the yearbook to you.”
Besides, LW, At keep in mind, not everyone is CNN.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2013, 03:37:52 pm
Besides, LW, At keep in mind, not everyone is CNN.I can't tell if you're saying CNN's impartial or sensational.
Post by: misko27 on April 28, 2013, 04:03:32 pm
Quote from: Obama
“I know CNN has taken some knocks lately but the fact is, I admire their commitment to covering all sides of the story, just in case one of them happens to be accurate.”
Post by: MaximumZero on April 28, 2013, 05:37:13 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 28, 2013, 05:38:29 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on April 28, 2013, 05:40:56 pm
Real Mongolian food is mostly just fried or boiled mutton. Gotta eat a lot of fat and proteins when you're a nomad on the cold, windy steppes, y'know.
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 05:44:43 pm
Reading the thread title, I suddenly wonder about Mongolian food.
Spoiler: Boortsog, a Mongolian doughnut (click to show/hide)
I think that's actually a Russian or Central Asian brand there, given the text is in Russian.
Spoiler: Khuushuur, a kind of meat dumpling (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Also suutei tsai, a kind of salty milk tea (click to show/hide)
Post by: MaximumZero on April 28, 2013, 05:48:58 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 28, 2013, 05:49:59 pm
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 05:50:04 pm
I'd eat most of that. I'm not too big on funky milk stuff, though.
My favourite was actually Kazakh cuisine:
Spoiler: An entire platter of high resolution horse meat (click to show/hide)
And that's all it is. Hoss meat.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 28, 2013, 05:51:49 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 28, 2013, 05:52:19 pm
I'd eat most of that. I'm not too big on funky milk stuff, though.
My favourite was actually Kazakh cuisine:Spoiler: An entire platter of high resolution horse meat (click to show/hide)
And that's all it is. Hoss meat.
I didn't know that horse meat could be green and leafy.
Post by: Owlbread on April 28, 2013, 05:54:41 pm
I didn't know that horse meat could be green and leafy.
That was its pancreas. The hoss was Bruce Banner.
I don't know if the brains and stuff are still in there. I read a book about a guy who went to Tajikistan once and he met a horrible golum like guy who ate the eyeballs and savoured the popping-crunch. Each to his own, I happily eat blood mixed with oats and onions and fried in circles.
Post by: Sheb on April 28, 2013, 06:59:57 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 28, 2013, 07:45:59 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 28, 2013, 07:51:55 pm
This article deserves a read. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10527l)Fix'd.
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 28, 2013, 07:53:29 pm
Post by: DJ on April 29, 2013, 04:08:06 am
I read a book about a guy who went to Tajikistan once and he met a horrible golum like guy who ate the eyeballs and savoured the popping-crunch.My Dad does that. I tried eyeballs too, but I didn't like to texture. Brains, on the other hand, are the best part of any roasted animal.
Post by: Max White on April 29, 2013, 04:10:18 am
Hey don't even think for a second that isn't hardcore! Do you know how likely you are to poison yourself if you don't know how to cook them? Fuck man, packets of soy beans should be sold to adults only. You don't even know!
Post by: Owlbread on April 29, 2013, 11:30:49 am
I eat soy beans...
Hey don't even think for a second that isn't hardcore! Do you know how likely you are to poison yourself if you don't know how to cook them? Fuck man, packets of soy beans should be sold to adults only. You don't even know!
Word on the street is soy beans give you tats, yo. Female hormones.
I found it amusing at the end of that article when they said:
Quote
“Some of the older people are saying that there were fewer controls under Japanese rule,” the source concluded.
Now isn't that surprising?
My Dad does that. I tried eyeballs too, but I didn't like to texture. Brains, on the other hand, are the best part of any roasted animal.
It may be best if I continue this through PMs, but please can you tell me what eyeballs taste like? What is their texture? And about brains as well?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2013, 11:56:59 am
I eat soy beans...I just put them in water and boil it.
Hey don't even think for a second that isn't hardcore! Do you know how likely you are to poison yourself if you don't know how to cook them? Fuck man, packets of soy beans should be sold to adults only. You don't even know!
Am I of strongest liver then?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 29, 2013, 12:03:21 pm
my sides (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/26/north-korea-iran-attack-canadas-human-rights-record-at-un-forum/)
i'm losing them faster than i can regain them recently, does anyone know a good bulk supplier
Post by: Dutchling on April 29, 2013, 12:07:33 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on April 29, 2013, 12:09:50 pm
dear bay12Seriously? I mean which human rights violating country was left to criticize Canada? I couldn't stop laughing.
my sides (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/26/north-korea-iran-attack-canadas-human-rights-record-at-un-forum/)
i'm losing them faster than i can regain them recently, does anyone know a good bulk supplier
If its onion, the world suddenly makes sense again.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2013, 12:20:43 pm
Post by: Descan on April 29, 2013, 01:10:29 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 01:12:45 pm
We have had problems with human rights abuses re: native communities. Like, police raping people problems.don't forget what we did to the Japanese during WW2
Post by: Owlbread on April 29, 2013, 01:19:06 pm
don't forget what we did to the Japanese during WW2
What would that be?
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 01:25:04 pm
"internment camps" the Canadian government took away their houses and property and locked them up in campsdon't forget what we did to the Japanese during WW2
What would that be?
very simaller to Concentration camps just no killing instead.
everyone from japanese decent. here have some images.
Spoiler: images(kinda offensive) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dutchling on April 29, 2013, 01:26:43 pm
Post by: Willfor on April 29, 2013, 01:30:17 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 01:33:00 pm
It's almost as if you're the slightly less evil cousin of America o.Othats nothing. just look what we did to the aboriginals.
Residential Schools, they were called.
Basically they were schools that we forced the Natives into so they would "Learn" english and become a "better member of society"
if they spoke their native language they were beaten.
lots of abuse happened.
the kids were taken away from their parents.
yeah, bad bad stuff.
here's a wiki article on the subject. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system)
Quote
has been described as cultural genocide or "killing the Indian in the child."
i love history class :)
Post by: Descan on April 29, 2013, 01:44:47 pm
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 01:50:00 pm
Yeah, and the rape by Mounties is a recent thing...Yeah but thats not enforced by the government. thats just police brutality.
Could you imagine if rape was mandatory?
0.o
Post by: Owlbread on April 29, 2013, 01:57:27 pm
thats nothing. just look what we did to the aboriginals.
Residential Schools, they were called.
Basically they were schools that we forced the Natives into so they would "Learn" english and become a "better member of society"
Though they didn't have it nearly as bad as the First Nations people, there's parallels there between the Celtic language speakers of Canada like the Scottish Gaelic speakers from the Maritimes who were beaten at school for speaking their native language in a bid to eradicate a culture that was seen as inferior.
Post by: AlmightyOne on April 29, 2013, 02:03:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2013, 02:06:20 pm
I just the learned the really sinister side of Canada... :oRule of thumb for colonization:
Were there indigenous populations? Yes?
Are they significantly present today? No?
-Terrible, terrible things happened.
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 02:07:47 pm
its the story of the St.Loius. a ship carrying Jewish refugees from Nazi germany that got rejected from Canada and had to go back to Germany where they were killed.
Post by: Sheb on April 29, 2013, 02:15:47 pm
Quote
"No country, could open its doors wide enough to take in the hundreds of thousands Jewish peolpe who want to leave Europe: the line must be drawn somewhere."
I'm keeping this quote for the next time some assholes says we cannot take in refugees because "We cannot host all the misery in the world".
Post by: LordSlowpoke on April 29, 2013, 02:21:39 pm
Quote"No country, could open its doors wide enough to take in the hundreds of thousands Jewish peolpe who want to leave Europe: the line must be drawn somewhere."
I'm keeping this quote for the next time some assholes says we cannot take in refugees because "We cannot host all the misery in the world".
right
so we got from a joke news page to new ways of circumventing the revised edition of godwin's law
i'm just going to leave now.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2013, 03:14:21 pm
'Israel’s Separation Barrier, dubbed the “Apartheid Wall” or “Berlin Wall” by Palestinians, has increasingly attracted international media attention, largely due to the hard-to-ignore scale of the project.Quote"No country, could open its doors wide enough to take in the hundreds of thousands Jewish peolpe who want to leave Europe: the line must be drawn somewhere."
I'm keeping this quote for the next time some assholes says we cannot take in refugees because "We cannot host all the misery in the world".
The most obvious historical parallel to the barrier is the Berlin Wall, which was 96 miles long (155 kilometers). Israel’s barrier, still under construction, is expected to reach at least 403 miles in length (650 kilometers). The average height of the Berlin Wall was 11.8 feet (3.6 metres), compared with the maximum* current height of Israel’s Wall — 25 feet (8 metres).'
http://electronicintifada.net/content/it-fence-it-wall-no-its-separation-barrier/4715
Humanity doesn't learn quick enough.
Post by: Karlito on April 29, 2013, 05:18:06 pm
It's almost as if you're the slightly less evil cousin of America o.Othats nothing. just look what we did to the aboriginals.
Residential Schools, they were called.
Similar things were done in the US.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 29, 2013, 06:04:11 pm
Post by: Blargityblarg on April 29, 2013, 06:24:52 pm
It's almost as if you're the slightly less evil cousin of America o.Othats nothing. just look what we did to the aboriginals.
Residential Schools, they were called.
Similar things were done in the US.
And in Australia. There was an actual, systemised plan to take aboriginal children from their homes, raise them in camps/boarding schools as Westerners, and hope that after a few generations of breeding with whites the difference would no longer be noticeable. This was eventually apologised for in 2007.
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 06:34:38 pm
Canada apoligized for it in 2008It's almost as if you're the slightly less evil cousin of America o.Othats nothing. just look what we did to the aboriginals.
Residential Schools, they were called.
Similar things were done in the US.
And in Australia. There was an actual, systemised plan to take aboriginal children from their homes, raise them in camps/boarding schools as Westerners, and hope that after a few generations of breeding with whites the difference would no longer be noticeable. This was eventually apologised for in 2007.
who's winning the oppressive country award now?
My god, at this rate of technological development.... (http://www.theonion.com/articles/north-korea-celebrates-as-kim-jongun-becomes-first,31085/)The onion is a satirical news site.
its fake
Post by: Tellemurius on April 29, 2013, 06:37:53 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 29, 2013, 06:39:20 pm
I'm reasonably certain LF knows that :|My god, at this rate of technological development.... (http://www.theonion.com/articles/north-korea-celebrates-as-kim-jongun-becomes-first,31085/)The onion is a satirical news site.
its fake
Post by: Ameablable on April 29, 2013, 06:41:23 pm
my apologies. i cant read sarcasm.I'm reasonably certain LF knows that :|My god, at this rate of technological development.... (http://www.theonion.com/articles/north-korea-celebrates-as-kim-jongun-becomes-first,31085/)The onion is a satirical news site.
its fake
Post by: misko27 on April 29, 2013, 10:01:01 pm
Post by: Lightningfalcon on April 29, 2013, 10:23:00 pm
Oh noes! War is coming! (http://www.theonion.com/articles/north-koreas-war-preparations,31794/)Strange. That was more then a month ago.
I'm starting to feel like that news source isn't all that credible.
Post by: Sirus on April 29, 2013, 10:24:13 pm
Preposterous, good sir!Oh noes! War is coming! (http://www.theonion.com/articles/north-koreas-war-preparations,31794/)Strange. That was more then a month ago.
I'm starting to feel like that news source isn't all that credible.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 30, 2013, 12:30:58 am
Alternatively: Rush Limbaugh: His Name Sounds A Lot Like Limburger Cheese. Which probably explains the smell.
Post by: DJ on April 30, 2013, 12:38:45 am
It may be best if I continue this through PMs, but please can you tell me what eyeballs taste like? What is their texture? And about brains as well?Eyeballs taste kind of like meat gelatin, which isn't bad, but they have the texture of an undercooked potato. Brains are rich and buttery.
Post by: Owlbread on April 30, 2013, 08:32:29 am
Quote
North Korean malls playing instrumental version of “(I’ve Had) The Time Of My Life” overdubbed with anti-U.S. lyrics
I enjoyed that.
Eyeballs taste kind of like meat gelatin, which isn't bad, but they have the texture of an undercooked potato. Brains are rich and buttery.
That's quite comforting, I was concerned that eyeballs would be all rubbery. They pop in your mouth though, don't they?
Post by: Just Some Guy on April 30, 2013, 04:37:26 pm
Post by: Max White on April 30, 2013, 05:14:18 pm
:P
Post by: Ameablable on April 30, 2013, 05:19:37 pm
Please, both Japan and Australia have been asking the US to denuclearize for ages, nobody ever gave us a news article! This North Korea gets all the credit.Its easy! Just threaten everyone with weapons of ass destruction
:P
Post by: Ameablable on April 30, 2013, 05:29:06 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 30, 2013, 05:35:33 pm
"I'll take all of them, plus a few dozen extra for good measure."Its easy! Just threaten everyone with weapons of ass destruction'That's an interesting device. What does it do?'
'Blows up the arses of everyone within 50 kilometers of the centre of the assplosion.'
'...'
'How many do you want to order?'
Post by: misko27 on April 30, 2013, 06:56:10 pm
Anyway, silly Australasians, no one cares what you think! And what does Japan of all nations know about nuclear weapons?
NK is clearly a expert in such matters. Just ask Pakistan, they seem reliable.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 30, 2013, 07:15:33 pm
North Korea, a starving totalitarian state with an outdated army and hated by almost every other nation in the world, demands that the US, an economic powerhouse and a superpower with one of the most advanced armies the world has ever seen, denuclearize. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10533)Don't see what's wrong with that, other than the fact that they probably wouldn't hold up their end of the bargain.
Also North Korea has been planning to shut down Kaesong since the days of Kim Jong Il (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10532)Aaaaaaaand business as usual. A joint factory is making everyone's lives better and encouraging unity with the South, so clearly it has to stop. Nevermind improving the rest of the country to the point where an operational goddamned factory isn't anything special, we'll just stop them from mingling and build another mosaic.
Post by: misko27 on April 30, 2013, 07:35:43 pm
How the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
Post by: MaximumZero on April 30, 2013, 07:45:35 pm
That $80 millions dollar's worth of funds from the factory is a major part of North Korea's budget is, well.Their uranium is actually a ball of duct tape painted day-glo green.
How the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
Post by: Pnx on April 30, 2013, 07:52:25 pm
Plus they were willing to dedicate ridiculous amounts of effort to it.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 30, 2013, 07:53:54 pm
Really? That shit comes in all sorts of colors, I'd think it would be cheaper to get neon green duct tape now.That $80 millions dollar's worth of funds from the factory is a major part of North Korea's budget is, well.Their uranium is actually a ball of duct tape painted day-glo green.
How the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
Post by: tahujdt on April 30, 2013, 08:07:00 pm
I use my neon green duct tape to fix all sorts of things, then I usually add golden duct tape highlights. Seriously, I have those.Really? That shit comes in all sorts of colors, I'd think it would be cheaper to get neon green duct tape now.That $80 millions dollar's worth of funds from the factory is a major part of North Korea's budget is, well.Their uranium is actually a ball of duct tape painted day-glo green.
How the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
Post by: MaximumZero on April 30, 2013, 11:03:43 pm
Post by: Nilik on April 30, 2013, 11:39:25 pm
North Korea, a starving totalitarian state with an outdated army and hated by almost every other nation in the world, demands that the US, an economic powerhouse and a superpower with one of the most advanced armies the world has ever seen, denuclearize. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10533)Also North Korea has been planning to shut down Kaesong since the days of Kim Jong Il (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10532)
And in other news, if Scotland gains independence, we might have to denuclearize.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22358118 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22358118)
(They have all our nuclear missile silos, Britain wants to keep them but Scotland doesn't)
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 30, 2013, 11:58:54 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on May 01, 2013, 12:07:23 am
What's this about checkers? Isn't that solved from starting position?Pfff, only if you know what you're doing.
That said, we could always play Go.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 01, 2013, 12:35:27 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 01, 2013, 12:39:37 am
Denuclear war is inevitable. WE'RE ALL GOING TO SURVIVE.A GRIM, DARK FUTURE OF PEACE AND LIFE. THE HORROR. THE HORROR.
Post by: Osmosis Jones on May 01, 2013, 04:27:15 am
That said, we could always play Go.
FEAR THE AWESOME POWER OF MY B2 BOMBERS! (http://senseis.xmp.net/?ArticleOfTheWeek%2FArchive2009#toc16)
Post by: Owlbread on May 01, 2013, 05:48:52 am
And in other news, if Scotland gains independence, we might have to denuclearize.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22358118 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22358118)
(They have all our nuclear missile silos, Britain wants to keep them but Scotland doesn't)
I'm sure they'd get replaced somewhere in England or Wales if they removed them up here. Regardless though it doesn't really matter, if we decide it shouldn't be on our territory then that's that, whether the rest of the UK has pseudo-colonial or globetrotting ambitions or not.
If, of course, the British government saw the light and scrapped the system altogether it would be marvellous. I mean, I know (to paraphrase Frankie Boyle) we need it to protect ourselves from 1970s Russia and stuff but groups like the North Koreans or the Iranians just shouldn't be a threat to us.
Post by: hops on May 01, 2013, 07:27:39 am
And thus began the First World Peace.Denuclear war is inevitable. WE'RE ALL GOING TO SURVIVE.A GRIM, DARK FUTURE OF PEACE AND LIFE. THE HORROR. THE HORROR.
Post by: misko27 on May 01, 2013, 08:48:04 am
Which continued until ended with the treaty of London, ending the longest, most bloodless peace in history.And thus began the First World Peace.Denuclear war is inevitable. WE'RE ALL GOING TO SURVIVE.A GRIM, DARK FUTURE OF PEACE AND LIFE. THE HORROR. THE HORROR.
Post by: Owlbread on May 01, 2013, 09:02:36 am
Which continued until ended with the treaty of London, ending the longest, most bloodless peace in history.
It was signed after a devout Muslim man in Turkmenistan sneezed twice and it sounded a bit like "la ilha ila Allah".
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2013, 11:43:03 am
Believe it or not, but MAD works (sometimes).And thus began the First World Peace.Denuclear war is inevitable. WE'RE ALL GOING TO SURVIVE.A GRIM, DARK FUTURE OF PEACE AND LIFE. THE HORROR. THE HORROR.
Take it away, and the world might become less safe, rather than more.
Post by: Fniff on May 01, 2013, 11:59:57 am
Quote from: Other Dudes-snip-Believe it or not, but MAD works (sometimes).
Take it away, and the world might become less safe, rather than more.
Agreed, but it's not a stable way of ensuring peace.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2013, 12:21:33 pm
Increasing possible costs. (MAD)
Decreasing gains. (I dunno what works here. Scorched Earth?)
Reducing the means. (Sanctions, EGCS, ....)
*A strategically planned war. Nothing's going to stop a nutjob.
Post by: mainiac on May 01, 2013, 12:29:58 pm
How the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
The Soviets left some fissile material in a storage facility during the cold war.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 01, 2013, 12:30:56 pm
Yup, There's 3 ways of preventing * war.You forgot everyone dying.
-snip-
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2013, 12:36:17 pm
They also have their own uranium minesHow the hell did these guys build nuclear weapons?
The Soviets left some fissile material in a storage facility during the cold war.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 01, 2013, 05:22:53 pm
That'd fall under decreased means. Hard to start a war when you, everyone you might recruit, and everyone you might attack are all dead.Yup, There's 3 ways of preventing * war.You forgot everyone dying.
-snip-
Not that the Bone Wars wouldn't be interesting, mind you.
Post by: Devling on May 02, 2013, 12:03:42 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 02, 2013, 01:25:01 am
Liches will carry on the great fight for years after the last human dies.Fossil wars.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 02, 2013, 01:36:25 am
Fossil fuel wars. In the grim dark future there is only the sloshing of vast reservoirs of petroleum, the hissing of natural gas, and the grinding oppression of coal as these three entities struggle for dominion beneath the Earth.Liches will carry on the great fight for years after the last human dies.Fossil wars.
Post by: MonkeyHead on May 02, 2013, 10:51:42 am
Post by: ibot66 on May 02, 2013, 11:20:44 am
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/world/asia/north-korea-american-sentenced/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/world/asia/north-korea-american-sentenced/index.html)
Perhaps North Korea actually listens?
Post by: tahujdt on May 02, 2013, 12:23:44 pm
I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.My personal energy plan for unlimited nuclear power involves buying Greenland from the 56,744 (not a typo) people who live there, and then building some mostly computerized plants there. Really cold up there too, so coolant isn't as huge a priority.
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 12:24:37 pm
How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.My personal energy plan for unlimited nuclear power involves buying Greenland from the 56,744 (not a typo) people who live there, and then building some mostly computerized plants there. Really cold up there too, so coolant isn't as huge a priority.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2013, 12:26:22 pm
Lossless cabling I suppose. Real problems are the fact that nuclear requires liquid water, and really, a melting core doesn't care wherether it's -30 or 50 degrees outside.How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.My personal energy plan for unlimited nuclear power involves buying Greenland from the 56,744 (not a typo) people who live there, and then building some mostly computerized plants there. Really cold up there too, so coolant isn't as huge a priority.
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 12:28:39 pm
No such animal without supercooled semiconductors. And you'd need a hell of a lot of it to actually get anywhere; Greenland's kinda on its own rather large island, don't forget.Lossless cabling I suppose. Real problems are the fact that nuclear requires liquid water, and really, a melting core doesn't care wherether it's -30 or 50 degrees outside.How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.My personal energy plan for unlimited nuclear power involves buying Greenland from the 56,744 (not a typo) people who live there, and then building some mostly computerized plants there. Really cold up there too, so coolant isn't as huge a priority.
Post by: Frumple on May 02, 2013, 12:29:26 pm
How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?Lasers.
Seriously though, haven't they been working on some kind of satellite based power transmission or summat like that? Know they've got wireless power transmission over short range, but I don't recall how far they've gotten in getting it longer.
Barring that or really long power cables, you could probably do something involving batteries of various sorts.
Post by: tahujdt on May 02, 2013, 12:30:37 pm
If it's producing enough energy, then countries would be falling over each other to build such a cable.No such animal without supercooled semiconductors. And you'd need a hell of a lot of it to actually get anywhere; Greenland's kinda on its own rather large island, don't forget.Lossless cabling I suppose. Real problems are the fact that nuclear requires liquid water, and really, a melting core doesn't care wherether it's -30 or 50 degrees outside.How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.My personal energy plan for unlimited nuclear power involves buying Greenland from the 56,744 (not a typo) people who live there, and then building some mostly computerized plants there. Really cold up there too, so coolant isn't as huge a priority.
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 12:33:26 pm
The only satellite-based power generation scheme I can remember involved satellites in geosynchronous orbit gathering solar energy and beaming it down to special stations in the form of microwaves. Nothing that I can come up with involves beaming energy up to satellites and then being beamed down somewhere else.How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?Lasers.
Seriously though, haven't they been working on some kind of satellite based power transmission or summat like that? Know they've got wireless power transmission over short range, but I don't recall how far they've gotten in getting it longer.
Barring that or really long power cables, you could probably do something involving batteries of various sorts.
Batteries would still need to be made, they'd have to be fairly massive, and worst of all would have to be transported to and from Greenland. A single shipwreck could cause country-wide blackouts.
Post by: GlyphGryph on May 02, 2013, 12:34:35 pm
Increasing possible costs. (MAD)
Decreasing gains. (I dunno what works here. Scorched Earth?)
Reducing the means. (Sanctions, EGCS, ....)
Best way of decreasing gains is to make yourself more valuable as a friend than as an enemy.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2013, 12:38:46 pm
The problem with the wireless transmission is that it has a significant loss percentage (more than 20%). Requires massive sending and recieving arrays. (1km sending, 10km* recieving), and jams all sattelites that move between either of the arrays.The only satellite-based power generation scheme I can remember involved satellites in geosynchronous orbit gathering solar energy and beaming it down to special stations in the form of microwaves. Nothing that I can come up with involves beaming energy up to satellites and then being beamed down somewhere else.How exactly would you get the power anywhere else?Lasers.
Seriously though, haven't they been working on some kind of satellite based power transmission or summat like that? Know they've got wireless power transmission over short range, but I don't recall how far they've gotten in getting it longer.
Barring that or really long power cables, you could probably do something involving batteries of various sorts.
Batteries would still need to be made, they'd have to be fairly massive, and worst of all would have to be transported to and from Greenland. A single shipwreck could cause country-wide blackouts.
Post by: DJ on May 02, 2013, 12:54:01 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 12:58:13 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 01:07:17 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 01:09:09 pm
So that American wasn't killed, just sentenced to 15 years of hard labor, where he could die.Previous page, misko :P
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/world/asia/north-korea-american-sentenced/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/world/asia/north-korea-american-sentenced/index.html)
Perhaps North Korea actually listens?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 01:09:38 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 02, 2013, 01:18:11 pm
Might as well be a death sentence.They'll release him sooner or later, like those two American journalists a few years ago.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 01:21:04 pm
We'll see. The last time that happened North Korea used it as "Look, America is capitulating!" propaganda. With recent events the government might not want to let that happen.Might as well be a death sentence.They'll release him sooner or later, like those two American journalists a few years ago.
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 01:23:13 pm
Wouldn't that be a good thing from their point of view? It'd allow them to back down semi-gracefully from all of their recent threats, at least in the eyes of the citizenry.We'll see. The last time that happened North Korea used it as "Look, America is capitulating!" propaganda. With recent events the government might not want to let that happen.Might as well be a death sentence.They'll release him sooner or later, like those two American journalists a few years ago.
"See! Not only is America scared of our might, but they'll also do anything to get their citizens back! We're number 1!"
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 01:24:10 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 01:24:53 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 02, 2013, 01:28:13 pm
Oh. My bad.Dohohoho~
Country parallels are fun.
I personally feel that the 3 fossil fuels would form some kind of evil carbon based axis in order to commit genocide against the renewable mechanisms of solar, tidal, wind and hydro. Nuclear power would sit in the corner doing a Switzerland.Amidst the carnage nobody suspects THE NUCLEAR WORLD FUSION!
Post by: Ameablable on May 02, 2013, 02:39:16 pm
but what about the thousands of North Koreans sent to these death camps?
where's there spot in the news?
seems like the media only cares about when people from first world countries are in danger.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 02:44:48 pm
seems like the media only cares about when people from first world countries are in danger.Pretty much.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 02, 2013, 02:58:17 pm
Seems like the media only cares about when people from first world countries are in danger.More like 'one of us.'
Post by: Sheb on May 02, 2013, 03:08:45 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 03:10:46 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 02, 2013, 03:14:24 pm
Post by: DWC on May 02, 2013, 03:20:29 pm
I'm not sure why the US has militarily intervened in rather benign countries on dubious pretenses for decades, but has done nothing about a much more relevant threat to peace. So they invade Iraq on some suspision of having chemical weapons and here is North Korea actually possessing and building nuclear weapons, gearing up for the apocalypse while at the same time the US is anxious to find reason to intervene in Syria. What the fuck?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 03:24:06 pm
For the most part, China took North Korea with it during the Soviet-Sino Split, one of only a few nations to end up in the Chinese alliance. The US began having positive relations with the PRC soon afterwards. This made North Korea all but off-limits to international activity.
Post by: Owlbread on May 02, 2013, 03:58:08 pm
You are not quite understanding the history. North Korea as a rogue nation only began after the Soviet-Sino Split and intensified after the fall of the Soviet Union. Before that they weren't much better or worse than the USSR or PRC. North Korea and South Korea had approximately the same GDP until 1970.
For the most part, China took North Korea with it during the Soviet-Sino Split, one of only a few nations to end up in the Chinese alliance. The US began having positive relations with the PRC soon afterwards. This made North Korea all but off-limits to international activity.
Some even say that in the 70s, people looked at the suffering of the South Koreans and at the relative prosperity of the North (with their health care system, education, job security etc) and thought that Communism might even have been working better than Capitalism. That was of course due to, primarily, aid from the Chinese and Soviets. Now most of the North Korean electrical grid is a rusted spiderweb of useless cables and water doesn't even come out of the taps.
Post by: MonkeyHead on May 02, 2013, 04:47:56 pm
I've always wondered why the rest of the world has even tolerated North Korea's existence. Haven't they always been a belligerent psychopathic rouge nation especially since after the Korean war?
I'm not sure why the US has militarily intervened in rather benign countries on dubious pretenses for decades, but has done nothing about a much more relevant threat to peace. So they invade Iraq on some suspision of having chemical weapons and here is North Korea actually possessing and building nuclear weapons, gearing up for the apocalypse while at the same time the US is anxious to find reason to intervene in Syria. What the fuck?
That, and Iraq/Afghanistan did not have one of the worlds major powers as a signifigant backer. Regarding NK, the US does not want to piss off China.
Post by: Haspen on May 02, 2013, 04:49:46 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 02, 2013, 04:55:30 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 02, 2013, 04:56:54 pm
That, and Iraq/Afghanistan did not have one of the worlds major powers as a signifigant backer. Regarding NK, the US does not want to piss off China.
Iraq lost that after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the distancing between the UK and Iraq following the Iraqi/Iranian war.
Post by: Tellemurius on May 02, 2013, 05:49:30 pm
NK actually has quite a bit of oil and a few natural resources, its really the only reason China tolerates them.yet they send coal to them and have their trains stolen
Post by: Felius on May 02, 2013, 06:05:34 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 06:57:45 pm
AS for NK, it's thought China themselves would intervene if they ever thought they would actually use them. Think of it like this: China gains little from a global Apocalypse.
Post by: Sirus on May 02, 2013, 06:58:40 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on May 02, 2013, 07:01:35 pm
Who would gain ANYTHING from a global apocalypse?crabs people
mole men
roaches
atom man
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 07:02:39 pm
Also the The people who make water purifiers. Many gold nuts. Somewhere, a biker gang with radiation proof suits have been waiting for this moment.
Post by: Devling on May 02, 2013, 07:08:46 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 02, 2013, 08:02:46 pm
Who would gain ANYTHING from a global apocalypse?The Courier. Without the apocalypse, she or he would not be able to loot all that free stuff.
Post by: DWC on May 02, 2013, 08:55:07 pm
If you believe in conspiracies then you could suppose the elite is orchestrating events to lead up to world wide depopulation.
Anyways, that's off topic. I kinda forgot China and Russia backs up NK because they kinda like having that buffer state there and don't want US bases built next to their borders. Maybe these countries are starting to become less tolerant of NK as they are doing more business and their interests are more aligned with the west since the cold war ended. If North Korea becomes too isolated and loses their backers they might get desperate and start a war if they feared an invasion. China could serve it's interests by intervening and occupying as well, they could replace North Korea with another entity to act as a buffer.
South Korea does not want 'reunification' because they don't want to deal with rehabilitating an economically defunct north and impoverished backwards refugees flooding their cities. So some other nation state would replace it, hopefully with better management.
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 09:29:42 pm
I dunno, the conspiracy theorists back in the 80's thought Reagan was insane and wanted to start a nuclear war so some Illuminati-types prepared for it could emerge from the ashes and repopulate the world in the name of Baby Jesus or whatever. That idea is what inspired alot of media from around the time like fall-out's 'enclave' and the nobles in Vampire Hunter D, ect.I disagree with the last part, for a couple of reasons. For one, they actually have a minister of re-unification. For another, Historical precedent (Germany!) Says they take the costs for long-term gain.
If you believe in conspiracies then you could suppose the elite is orchestrating events to lead up to world wide depopulation.
Anyways, that's off topic. I kinda forgot China and Russia backs up NK because they kinda like having that buffer state there and don't want US bases built next to their borders. Maybe these countries are starting to become less tolerant of NK as they are doing more business and their interests are more aligned with the west since the cold war ended. If North Korea becomes too isolated and loses their backers they might get desperate and start a war if they feared an invasion. China could serve it's interests by intervening and occupying as well, they could replace North Korea with another entity to act as a buffer.
South Korea does not want 'reunification' because they don't want to deal with rehabilitating an economically defunct north and impoverished backwards refugees flooding their cities. So some other nation state would replace it, hopefully with better management.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 02, 2013, 09:35:31 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 09:41:18 pm
East and West Germany were not anywhere near as inequal as North and South Korea. East Germany was poor and West Germany was rich. North Korea is a nearly unindustrialized hellhole and South Korea is rich.Still. The fact of the matter is simple. They incurred large scale losses from it, yet they still did it. Any they've invested so much time into it to.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 02, 2013, 09:47:45 pm
There's also the racial/national pride thing. I don't know how strong that is in this case, but people will put up with a lot for the sake of getting all of "their people" reunified and rescued.East and West Germany were not anywhere near as inequal as North and South Korea. East Germany was poor and West Germany was rich. North Korea is a nearly unindustrialized hellhole and South Korea is rich.Still. The fact of the matter is simple. They incurred large scale losses from it, yet they still did it. Any they've invested so much time into it to.
Post by: DWC on May 02, 2013, 09:48:26 pm
I disagree with the last part, for a couple of reasons. For one, they actually have a minister of re-unification. For another, Historical precedent (Germany!) Says they take the costs for long-term gain.
The reunification of Germany is a commonly cited reason why absorbing North Korea would be a terrible decision.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/10/young-south-koreans-fear-unification-with-north-wo/?page=all (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/10/young-south-koreans-fear-unification-with-north-wo/?page=all)
It's not really a new thing either, I got the impression the South Korean government had no intention of annexing North Korea from an interview on NPR and the sentiment was basically the same as in the article.
Really, I can't blame them, after fighting would be a brutal war, having to occupy North Korea for who knows how long, the conditions in North Korea, it would be far worse then West Germany reuniting with it's only somewhat backwards and dysfunctional brother.
Apparently the Russians offered to return Kaliningrad back to German administration after the USSR collapsed. They refused, considering it more trouble then it was worth.
Post by: misko27 on May 02, 2013, 10:03:27 pm
Post by: DWC on May 02, 2013, 10:09:43 pm
Well, let's just say if the offer came up and the south refused, I would be very confused.
I imagine they'd like to replace the rulers of North Korea and set up a democratic intern government, but they would not absorb it overnight and open their borders or grant citizenship to anybody until the place was ready.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 02, 2013, 10:20:00 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on May 03, 2013, 01:28:50 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 03, 2013, 01:35:18 am
With Gaddafi dead, Kim-Jong-Un stable but hawkish, and Abdullah in poor health, we may soon have no eccentric dictators left...
Save us Mugabe!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 03, 2013, 01:37:07 am
Korea has been divided for nearly 20 years longer than Germany was, and the division was the result of the trusteeship of Korea (supposedly intended to last until an independent Korean government could be formed) becoming a tug of war between the U.S. and CCCP/PRC (resulting in the formation of competing and ideologically opposed governments)Part of it is the fault of the South Koreans. Someone assassinated the only person with enough political power to assert that North and South needed to have a unified presidential election, and the other person pushed a South-only election, causing the Republic of Korea to get its first president (who also happened to be a dictator).
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 03, 2013, 01:47:06 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 03, 2013, 01:51:20 am
Might I remind you what happened when North and South Vietnam tried that strategy? Oh, right, massive war followed by communist victory. The latter obviously could not occur here, but it is just a bad strategy.Korea has been divided for nearly 20 years longer than Germany was, and the division was the result of the trusteeship of Korea (supposedly intended to last until an independent Korean government could be formed) becoming a tug of war between the U.S. and CCCP/PRC (resulting in the formation of competing and ideologically opposed governments)Part of it is the fault of the South Koreans. Someone assassinated the only person with enough political power to assert that North and South needed to have a unified presidential election, and the other person pushed a South-only election, causing the Republic of Korea to get its first president (who also happened to be a dictator).
Kind of a moot point nowadays, though. The North Koreans are way, way, way too afraid, brainwashed, and doublethought to participate in a free election even if it could be arranged.
If there is ever a Korean reunification, it won't happen for a long time. North and South Korea are, for the foreseeable future, better off as separate entities. If war happens the DMZ needs to stay up for at least a few years to get NK up to speed and keep China pacified.
I continue to hold the belief that all our problems would be solved by North Korea sinking into the ocean.(http://i.imgur.com/D7ALV0b.png)
Post by: Flying Dice on May 03, 2013, 02:09:09 am
As an added bonus, that would make China happy as well.I continue to hold the belief that all our problems would be solved by North Korea sinking into the ocean.(http://i.imgur.com/D7ALV0b.png)
Better yet would be to slice North Korea out and move it to the middle of the Pacific, which would make everyone happy. South Korea because they don't have to share a border with NK; Kim Jong Un because his little kingdom is even more isolated from outside information; the PRC because there's no risk of them having to share a land border with a U.S. ally; all of southeast Asia because they're out of range of North Korean missiles; the U.S. because we can stop caring about what N.K. does as we no longer have to support an ally against their aggression. Oh, and the North Koreans, because they aren't all suddenly drowning.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 03, 2013, 02:11:44 am
I'm starting to think he might be even more extreme than his father, and less eccentric. Both horrible things. The dictators of the world at least tend to be amusingly insane.Hate to break it to you, but Mugabe's in poor health. They were saying one of the reasons his party wants elections right now is because they just don't think he'll be able to do it in a few months.
With Gaddafi dead, Kim-Jong-Un stable but hawkish, and Abdullah in poor health, we may soon have no eccentric dictators left...
Save us Mugabe!
Might I remind you what happened when North and South Vietnam tried that strategy? Oh, right, massive war followed by communist victory. The latter obviously could not occur here, but it is just a bad strategy.What is, a long, genuine, largely proxy civil war followed by the weaker party's patron jumping ship with a flimsy cease fire? I don't see how that relates to combined elections in an effort to genuinely reunify the country.
Kind of a moot point nowadays, though. The North Koreans are way, way, way too afraid, brainwashed, and doublethought to participate in a free election even if it could be arranged.What makes you say that, and what's your criteria for that designation?
Better yet would be to slice North Korea out and move it to the middle of the Pacific, which would make everyone happy. South Korea because they don't have to share a border with NK; Kim Jong Un because his little kingdom is even more isolated from outside information; the PRC because there's no risk of them having to share a land border with a U.S. ally; all of southeast Asia because they're out of range of North Korean missiles; the U.S. because we can stop caring about what N.K. does as we no longer have to support an ally against their aggression. Oh, and the North Koreans, because they aren't all suddenly drowning.I approve of the Isle of Mystery.
Post by: Sheb on May 03, 2013, 04:34:50 am
Post by: DrPoo on May 03, 2013, 07:54:02 am
There will be no economy or starving NKs to save then. Just territory for the SKs to slowly move into.
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 11:09:08 am
The world has appendicitis. North Korea is the appendix of the world, a left-over from developmental times. It has grown sick and bloated. When that appendix bursts, it will shower everyone in pus.
Post by: MonkeyHead on May 03, 2013, 11:12:16 am
Post by: tahujdt on May 03, 2013, 11:22:57 am
I see the inevitable unification of Korea as follows:I want a video of that happening.
The world has appendicitis. North Korea is the appendix of the world, a left-over from developmental times. It has grown sick and bloated. When that appendix bursts, it will shower everyone in pus.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 03, 2013, 12:05:41 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on May 03, 2013, 12:07:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2013, 12:19:50 pm
Actually the best course of action would be to capture NK, then send its starved populace out, spread em amongst the world.yes how could this go wrong
There will be no economy or starving NKs to save then. Just territory for the SKs to slowly move into.
[chittering sound intensifies]
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 12:35:47 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 03, 2013, 01:54:07 pm
Except for north Koreans, since they are doomed to a life of endless misery with even fewer opportunities to escape, and the fact that no one gives a damn what happens to them anymore.As an added bonus, that would make China happy as well.I continue to hold the belief that all our problems would be solved by North Korea sinking into the ocean.(http://i.imgur.com/D7ALV0b.png)
Better yet would be to slice North Korea out and move it to the middle of the Pacific, which would make everyone happy. South Korea because they don't have to share a border with NK; Kim Jong Un because his little kingdom is even more isolated from outside information; the PRC because there's no risk of them having to share a land border with a U.S. ally; all of southeast Asia because they're out of range of North Korean missiles; the U.S. because we can stop caring about what N.K. does as we no longer have to support an ally against their aggression. Oh, and the North Koreans, because they aren't all suddenly drowning.
Remember the real victim here (till the north nukes the south) is the people of North Korea.
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 02:03:28 pm
Except for north Koreans, since they are doomed to a life of endless misery with even fewer opportunities to escape, and the fact that no one gives a damn what happens to them anymore.
Remember the real victim here (till the north nukes the south) is the people of North Korea.
I assumed that everyone was aware of that and was only joking about the whole "sinking North Korea into the sea" thing. It's why I didn't send a similar message.
Post by: AlmightyOne on May 03, 2013, 02:06:55 pm
Judging by the current state of the country, there is a good chance that a coup might actually (if not greatly)be beneficial to the country's current plight. OR worst case: It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.Since Kim Jr to me seems like one spoilt brat, who seems to be really inexperienced and too erratic in his decisions unlike his dad, A coup seems like a highly possible scenario in the coming years. Only hope the generals are atleast competent enough to steer the country in the right direction.Hope being the most important words.
Military coups don't tend to end well, last I checked.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 03, 2013, 02:08:15 pm
Post by: Sheb on May 03, 2013, 02:09:10 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on May 03, 2013, 02:09:46 pm
North Korea becomes the first to devolve back to the Middle Ages.Yes, but Definitely NOT the first, my good sir. There are many many examples...
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 03, 2013, 02:11:46 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 03, 2013, 02:20:52 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 02:26:13 pm
North Korea becomes the first to devolve back to theMiddleStone Ages.
You've never been to Kampuchea.
Post by: Fniff on May 03, 2013, 02:35:26 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 03, 2013, 02:41:04 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2013, 02:53:36 pm
It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.
...
Post by: Lightningfalcon on May 03, 2013, 03:29:39 pm
Hunter/gatherer society?Pre-tools society?
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2013, 03:47:36 pm
Nah. By the time they revert to a hunter/gatherer society, the whole power base of the government would have collapsed, and people will start to live independently. If China doesn't facepalm and step in to get the people on the road to making something of themselves (other than an embarrassment) for once, it'll likely end up something akin to ancient Korean society.Hunter/gatherer society?Pre-tools society?
Post by: Lightningfalcon on May 03, 2013, 03:53:44 pm
So then their new king will actually be riding unicorns this time around?Nah. By the time they revert to a hunter/gatherer society, the whole power base of the government would have collapsed, and people will start to live independently. If China doesn't facepalm and step in to get the people on the road to making something of themselves (other than an embarrassment) for once, it'll likely end up something akin to ancient Korean society.Hunter/gatherer society?Pre-tools society?
Post by: DWC on May 03, 2013, 03:59:58 pm
It really is like a feudal kingdom there, you have this ruling family who owns the country for their own benefit, a bunch of starving peasants with no rights being robbed of everything they produce and thrown in oubliettes. The elite building pointless monuments the rulers claiming to be divine entities, all kinds of fairy tales and subjection and everything.
They manage to one-up ancient feudal systems by forcing them to do these mass games for the elite's amusement and endangering every last one of them with nuclear annihilation.
Post by: ibot66 on May 03, 2013, 05:10:03 pm
ROBOT UNICORNS.So then their new king will actually be riding unicorns this time around?Nah. By the time they revert to a hunter/gatherer society, the whole power base of the government would have collapsed, and people will start to live independently. If China doesn't facepalm and step in to get the people on the road to making something of themselves (other than an embarrassment) for once, it'll likely end up something akin to ancient Korean society.Hunter/gatherer society?Pre-tools society?
Post by: Flying Dice on May 03, 2013, 05:11:57 pm
North Korea already reverted to pre-industrial society anyways, right?
It really is like a feudal kingdom there, you have this ruling family who owns the country for their own benefit, a bunch of starving peasants with no rights being robbed of everything they produce and thrown in oubliettes. The elite building pointless monuments the rulers claiming to be divine entities, all kinds of fairy tales and subjection and everything.
They manage to one-up ancient feudal systems by forcing them to do these mass games for the elite's amusement and endangering every last one of them with nuclear annihilation.
I want you to read your post very carefully. You appear to be conflating technological development with societal development.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2013, 05:21:04 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 03, 2013, 05:24:53 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 03, 2013, 05:49:19 pm
To be fair, many social movements like urbanization have only been possible with the advent of technological progress.True, but in this context not entirely applicable. A society can be backward and anachronistic in political and social terms without being technologically stunted and vice-versa, even if the original development of said technology originally went hand in glove with social progress. Just look at the United States! Uh, I'm talking about the continued use of the Imperial system of measures, of course. Of course.
There's also the note that urbanization has its roots with the development of agriculture, which is about the oldest paradigm shift of the human condition. Granted, much more recent improvements have made large cities much more viable (and much more densely populated cities possible), but genuine cities (even if they seem tiny to modern eyes) have existed for thousands of years, including under the rule of governments far more despotic than that of North Korea. In short, social and technological progress are loosely related, not 1:1 matching changes.
Post by: Onlyhestands on May 03, 2013, 06:10:54 pm
OR worst case: It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.Yeah, it could get a lot worse than it is now
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 06:24:48 pm
North Korea hasn't really reverted to anything, they never had a modern level of industrialization. The 90's were their resulting Malthusian Collapse.
They had a reasonable level of industrialization back in the 70s and 80s when they had a fair amount of active factories and mines and stuff. That all went out the window in the 90s when Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc financial support dried up.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 03, 2013, 06:26:45 pm
I don't think any of that actually went away. They just didn't expand to keep up with their increased population.North Korea hasn't really reverted to anything, they never had a modern level of industrialization. The 90's were their resulting Malthusian Collapse.
They had a reasonable level of industrialization back in the 70s and 80s when they had a fair amount of active factories and mines and stuff. That all went out the window in the 90s when Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc financial support dried up.
Post by: DWC on May 03, 2013, 06:37:08 pm
I don't think any of that actually went away. They just didn't expand to keep up with their increased population.North Korea hasn't really reverted to anything, they never had a modern level of industrialization. The 90's were their resulting Malthusian Collapse.
They had a reasonable level of industrialization back in the 70s and 80s when they had a fair amount of active factories and mines and stuff. That all went out the window in the 90s when Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc financial support dried up.
Nah, majority of their factories have closed because they no longer have their backers offering so much subsidized coal and fuel and whatnot. There are whole swaths of abandoned factories and rust-belt type areas in Yanggang and elsewhere.
Post by: Owlbread on May 03, 2013, 06:41:31 pm
Post by: Funk on May 03, 2013, 06:45:45 pm
edit untill about 74 the north was ahead of the south in jusy about every field, food,iron tools,army,houses mainy due to them trading, after all they had a massive heavy industry base.
Post by: AlmightyOne on May 04, 2013, 02:00:15 am
It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.
...
You both should have quoted my whole post. If you read it thoroughly, I clearly meant what would happen if there was a coop, and how that's better than what the country is going through thanks to Kim jr.OR worst case: It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.Yeah, it could get a lot worse than it is now
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 04, 2013, 02:11:15 am
In one book I read, there was a passage about a North Korean hospital during the famine in the 1990s where they used beer bottles as IVs. Most of the medical equipment came from a visit by Czechoslovakians in the late 70s/early 80s or something.I saw beer bottles as used as IVs during the Inside North Korea documentary, so that hasn't changed much.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 04, 2013, 02:15:07 am
You both should have quoted my whole post. If you read it thoroughly, I clearly meant what would happen if there was a coop, and how that's better than what the country is going through thanks to Kim jr.Hey guess what.
It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.That's exactly what I did.
And on a quasi-related note, should people start backing up their claims of 'might,' 'may' and 'possibly?'
Post by: Onlyhestands on May 04, 2013, 03:27:20 pm
It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.
...You both should have quoted my whole post. If you read it thoroughly, I clearly meant what would happen if there was a coop, and how that's better than what the country is going through thanks to Kim jr.OR worst case: It can get EVEN worse than now, which is highly improbable.Yeah, it could get a lot worse than it is now
That was my exact point. A coup could very well make things even worse.
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 06, 2013, 01:55:23 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 06, 2013, 02:00:42 pm
No threats from North Korea recently. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10549) Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That isn't so much "no threats" as "fewer threats then statistically average".
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 06, 2013, 02:01:48 pm
They're just charging up their Megathreat cannon.No threats from North Korea recently. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10549) Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That isn't so much "no threats" as "fewer threats then statistically average".
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 06, 2013, 03:05:58 pm
PREPARE YOURSELF FOR THE THREATENINGThey're just charging up their Megathreat cannon.No threats from North Korea recently. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10549) Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That isn't so much "no threats" as "fewer threats then statistically average".
Post by: Eotyrannus on May 06, 2013, 03:19:46 pm
PREPARE YOURSELF FOR THE THREATENINGThey're just charging up their Megathreat cannon.No threats from North Korea recently. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10549) Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That isn't so much "no threats" as "fewer threats then statistically average".
UOOO NUOOOOOOO- *is drowned out by massive amounts of propeganda and threats*
Post by: Onlyhestands on May 06, 2013, 04:20:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 06, 2013, 07:00:01 pm
So somewhat on topic I suppose, a friend of mine bought North Korean Snake Liquor, at a presentation of different embassies here. As in Whiskey with a snake inside of it. It's surprisingly good, 60% alcohol, but it goes down smooooth.There was one guy who bought a bottle of the stuff in South Korea. For years the snake survived by breathing through the cork. When he opened the bottle, the cobra was not amused.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 06, 2013, 07:21:53 pm
Does alcohol even affect snakes?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 06, 2013, 07:28:28 pm
Post by: Xantalos on May 06, 2013, 07:36:17 pm
I'm pretty sure alcohol has an effect on most animals. Bees can get drunk, I know that much.It's certainly not pleasant when you swallow them.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 06, 2013, 07:38:15 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 06, 2013, 07:40:01 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 06, 2013, 07:41:05 pm
Or you could put down a line of salt. But then something/someone might think it's cocaine and snort it.Which is more ethical:
Death by horrible chemical melting, or death by awesome boozes?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 06, 2013, 07:42:13 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 06, 2013, 11:50:00 pm
Post by: Sensei on May 07, 2013, 02:36:23 am
Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That -NK telling their people that the whole world is undergoing a serious food shortage, and not just them- is pretty amusing. We don't have any food shortages. We keep giving them food, and we have an obesity problem that a lot of starving villagers would kill to have.
Post by: Haspen on May 07, 2013, 02:54:17 am
Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That -NK telling their people that the whole world is undergoing a serious food shortage, and not just them- is pretty amusing. We don't have any food shortages. We keep giving them food, and we have an obesity problem that a lot of starving villagers would kill to have.
Actually, half of the world has food shortages because the other half hoards it and isn't willing to share for free :P
Post by: Chattox on May 07, 2013, 04:59:24 am
Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
Sheeeit. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1dnqKGuezo)
Post by: NobodyPro on May 07, 2013, 05:58:37 am
(http://linked though google images)Not only is the picture broken, it redirects me when I use Firefox.
Post by: Felius on May 07, 2013, 08:46:50 am
Please don't oversimplify a ridiculously complex issue. Even if you are joking, it perpetuates a very bad way of thinking that not only blame hunger on rich countries being eeeviiilllll, but actually hinders the creation of long term solutions for the problem, instead merely creating incentives for palliative measures that can even damage the local food production.Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That -NK telling their people that the whole world is undergoing a serious food shortage, and not just them- is pretty amusing. We don't have any food shortages. We keep giving them food, and we have an obesity problem that a lot of starving villagers would kill to have.
Actually, half of the world has food shortages because the other half hoards it and isn't willing to share for free :P
Post by: scrdest on May 07, 2013, 09:14:38 am
Please don't oversimplify a ridiculously complex issue. Even if you are joking, it perpetuates a very bad way of thinking that not only blame hunger on rich countries being eeeviiilllll, but actually hinders the creation of long term solutions for the problem, instead merely creating incentives for palliative measures that can even damage the local food production.Also, check this out. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10547)That -NK telling their people that the whole world is undergoing a serious food shortage, and not just them- is pretty amusing. We don't have any food shortages. We keep giving them food, and we have an obesity problem that a lot of starving villagers would kill to have.
Actually, half of the world has food shortages because the other half hoards it and isn't willing to share for free :P
Also: how do you imagine "sharing it for free" exactly? Let's suppose half of the world did indeed hoard food but suddenly had a change of mind. So, you have a lot of food in place X and a place Y which is pretty damn far away and, usually, has a hot climate.
So, you need to transport it somehow. Trucks are out, they took way too long and cannot cross the seas. Planes would be fast, so the food would not spoil, but the cargo space is limited. So we're left with the ships. This is just transporting it to the place with food shortages.
So you have to rent/buy a cargo ship, or several ones in fact. You need to fuel it with petrol, which costs money. You need to power the cooling systems, unless you want to dump a shitload of spoiled food on some country. Electricity costs money too. And you have to man it.
And then you have to unload it, transport it by land and figure out a method to distribute it to everyone. All of this needs to be repeated.
But let's suppose we manage to get a couple of truckloads of food to the J. Random Peasant. And then a warlord/government official/neighbors from the other village come and seize the food by force.
So, you are spending so much money and resources that burning the cash would be more cost-effective and you still fail to feed the starving regions in the long run. See?
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 07, 2013, 09:18:53 am
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 07, 2013, 05:06:18 pm
Post by: Ameablable on May 07, 2013, 05:09:12 pm
Post by: MagmaMcFry on May 07, 2013, 05:15:26 pm
Not gonna lie. But that water park looks pretty fricken awesome. I dont care how oppressive it isWho cares if nobody's ever going to visit, because they have neither ticket money nor vacation days to spare.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 07, 2013, 05:20:41 pm
If I had the money.
Post by: Pnx on May 07, 2013, 05:39:58 pm
Well NK has a big interest in trying to get foreign capital, one of the ways they've been trying to do this is by trying to make themselves a tourist haven for the wealthy... Hence why they made that really not very good cruise ship a while back, why they've had a big interest in refurbishing those big hotels that never went anywhere, and why they're apparently interested in building a water park.Not gonna lie. But that water park looks pretty fricken awesome. I dont care how oppressive it isWho cares if nobody's ever going to visit, because they have neither ticket money nor vacation days to spare.
I don't really see them as being a big tourist destination for most people any time soon, but it might be something they consider worthwhile if they get more money out of it than they do through other means.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 07, 2013, 05:41:07 pm
Post by: Max White on May 07, 2013, 05:52:30 pm
Build a theme park! Those filthy capitalist dogs will surly strike out of envy!
Post by: Sirus on May 07, 2013, 05:54:52 pm
Fuck they still haven't attacked! What do we do?/me sends the Great Leader a link to Orlando, Florida.
Build a theme park! Those filthy capitalist dogs will surly strike out of envy!
Post by: Sensei on May 08, 2013, 12:58:07 am
Meanwhile, Dear Leader Jr. inspects plans for what appear to be (photo 3) a giant water park with pyramids. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-05-07-0010)The article covers it with a little more detail than just the photo.
Quote
The next leg of his inspection was the Munsu Wading Pool under construction... He stressed that deep attention should be paid to the construction of the wading pool conducive to providing school youth and children and other people with good sporting and entertainment conditions.Breaking news: Instead of merely detaining photographers who take pictures of sick, emaciated Best Korean children, Kim will counter them with pictures of happy children. Internal sources confirmed that they have kept a full dozen children well-fed for the purpose of the upcoming photo shoot, a stunning national effort.
Post by: Devling on May 08, 2013, 01:03:00 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 08, 2013, 01:50:37 am
Post by: Grakelin on May 08, 2013, 01:54:22 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 08, 2013, 02:02:25 am
Depending on their class.Andrei Lankov (one of the few unbiased analysts of North Korea) states that the overall living conditions of average North Korean citizens have been slowly, but steadily improving in the recent years.
Post by: Max White on May 08, 2013, 02:04:21 am
Post by: Grakelin on May 08, 2013, 03:14:14 am
But here's the thing: If people were having an okay time in North Korea, they wouldn't defect in such large numbers. We know that a black market industry has formed specifically around getting North Korean defectors safely through China (which deports them directly back to NK, unlike several other countries which deport them back to SK). We know that enough North Koreans have successfully made the trip that the South Korean government continues to lessen aid to these people, and tighten admission requirements. We also know that Kim Jong-un has cracked down on defect attempts since taking power, and we have colloquial reports from the defectors that the North Korean government punishes the families of people they learn have successfully defected.
We are also aware that the citizenry of North Korea is divided into a class system known as Songbun, which may or may not be affecting who does and does not receive adequate amounts of food. It is the word of North Korean defectors against their government's. Though the Kaesong Industrial Complex managers were providing their workers with moon pies in lieu of cash bonuses (which would have been illegal). The moon pies are expected to have been sold privately by those who received them.
We also know that North Korea suffered an extreme peak in famine during the late nineties, which means the standard of living hasn't had anywhere to go except up. But since North Korea relies on foreign aid to feed its populace, we can only imagine a reversal, not an improvement, in the wake of their recent rhetoric.
I think that diminishing the level of poverty North Koreans are living in by claiming it is feel-good propaganda to validate a war is, in itself, feel-good propaganda. It's fun to poke at the USA's imperialistic tendencies, but it's not something that applies here, especially since the US is in no condition to actually go to war with that nation (they failed a war game based on a hypothetical North Korean conflict during the crisis), and they have made absolutely no indication that they plan to assault it. Even their government's opposition wants them to go to war with somebody else.
Let's not pretend that the North Korean people are happy, or that attempts to say otherwise are validification of armed conflict.
Post by: Owlbread on May 08, 2013, 11:32:48 am
Andrei Lankov (one of the few unbiased analysts of North Korea) states that the overall living conditions of average North Korean citizens have been slowly, but steadily improving in the recent years.
The standard of living of middle class North Koreans (i.e. those without undesirable backgrounds) is still pretty appalling, even if it is improving.
In the 1990s it was worse - people were (and I think still are) getting shafted by the system i.e. education, jobs, anything because they had family that lived in Japan or because one of their ancestors had been a South Korean POW or whatever. You know, you just wouldn't get enough marks to pass a particular exam or you'd get turned down for jobs constantly so you'd never amount to anything.
EDIT:
Ninja'd by Grakelin. Basically said everything I wanted to say except more eloquently and more convincingly. The only other thing I'd like to add to what he said was on the subject of the colloquial reports of the regime punishing the defectors' families - I've heard claims they'll put your entire close family (as far as cousins?) in prison camps.
Post by: Servant Corps on May 08, 2013, 12:43:30 pm
But here's the thing: If people were having an okay time in North Korea, they wouldn't defect in such large numbers.Sure they would. If literally every other country nearby is doing far better than North Korea.
Slow and gradual improvement in the living standards of North Korea is not at all claiming that the North Korean population is "happy".
Post by: Duuvian on May 08, 2013, 08:03:03 pm
Andrei Lankov (one of the few unbiased analysts of North Korea) states that the overall living conditions of average North Korean citizens have been slowly, but steadily improving in the recent years.In the 1990s it was worse - people were (and I think still are) getting shafted by the system i.e. education, jobs, anything because they had family that lived in Japan or because one of their ancestors had been a South Korean POW or whatever. You know, you just wouldn't get enough marks to pass a particular exam or you'd get turned down for jobs constantly so you'd never amount to anything.
Wat? They treat them like American marijuana smokers? That's terrible!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 08, 2013, 08:07:57 pm
Post by: Duuvian on May 08, 2013, 08:15:15 pm
And yet recreational marijuana use is legal in North Korea...
Haha
Post by: Cthulufaic on May 08, 2013, 08:48:52 pm
And yet recreational marijuana use is legal in North Korea...North Korea best country.
Post by: misko27 on May 08, 2013, 08:56:20 pm
Thinking of a certain low-lying country my man.And yet recreational marijuana use is legal in North Korea...North Korea best country.
Anyway, It's seems China has taken a radical step forward in their relation with the Craziest state, Doing what everyone else is doing!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/world/asia/china-cuts-ties-with-north-korean-bank.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/world/asia/china-cuts-ties-with-north-korean-bank.html?_r=0)
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 08, 2013, 09:09:45 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/world/asia/china-cuts-ties-with-north-korean-bank.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/world/asia/china-cuts-ties-with-north-korean-bank.html?_r=0)
Told you guys China won't play the 'swing your swords at our biggest trade partner/money machine' game with a pissant like Best Korea. This is actually a massive, massive change in their policy considering the BOC/BOK are integral to the NK armament plans.
Post by: hops on May 09, 2013, 05:23:24 am
And yet recreational marijuana use is legal in North Korea...Because nobody except the rich could afford to stop and smoke in North Korea
Post by: Trapezohedron on May 09, 2013, 05:28:48 am
Post by: Felius on May 09, 2013, 01:36:17 pm
Finally, China does the right thing and cut ties with the NK bank. Something must've happened behind the scenes for them to finally pull the plug.Probably China got fed up with their bullshit. Even China, with all that cultural thing to keep face and not admit past mistakes have a limit on how much they were willing to tolerate. The change of guard was also probably a factor, since it would make it easier for China to keep face: "Your father was tolerable, but you suck. We are not willing to continue our support now that you are in charge."
On other notes: North Korea already does keep well fed, polite and happy children for foreigns to see. Check some of the documentaries about NK tours. They generally take them to some special school with incredibly talented young healthy happy kids. North Korea really learned a lesson from Potemkin.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 09, 2013, 07:48:57 pm
I'm guessing this is more to pressure them into doing as they're told than just straight-up saying they'll have nothing to do with those loons anymore. All the reasons they had for dealing with those loons in the first place are still there, just surrounded by a thicker shell of pain-in-the-ass.Finally, China does the right thing and cut ties with the NK bank. Something must've happened behind the scenes for them to finally pull the plug.Probably China got fed up with their bullshit. Even China, with all that cultural thing to keep face and not admit past mistakes have a limit on how much they were willing to tolerate. The change of guard was also probably a factor, since it would make it easier for China to keep face: "Your father was tolerable, but you suck. We are not willing to continue our support now that you are in charge."
Post by: Grakelin on May 10, 2013, 12:47:35 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My point being: China should probably just take North Korea out on a boat somewhere and deal with the issue, but instead they're just going to take away its casino in the hopes that it learns something.
Post by: misko27 on May 10, 2013, 01:05:04 am
This is just like in the Godfather, which I'll spoiler in case one of you youngins hasn't actually seen it yet:To take the analogy further, there is a lot of fond memories the Chinese have of them. Blood spilt side by side in war. They are being forced to save face in the name of old ties, but, with the death of the parent, they can act unrestrained.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My point being: China should probably just take North Korea out on a boat somewhere and deal with the issue, but instead they're just going to take away its casino in the hopes that it learns something.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 13, 2013, 10:59:08 pm
Quote
His sexual scandal disclosed the naked south Korea before the eyes of the world.
She swaggered while speaking at the Congress.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2013, 12:03:14 am
Those darn debauched Southerners. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-05-13-0004&chAction=T) Bonus points for:Degenerate Korea aint' got nothing on the Un and only best Korea!QuoteHis sexual scandal disclosed the naked south Korea before the eyes of the world.
She swaggered while speaking at the Congress.
Post by: Tellemurius on May 14, 2013, 12:43:44 am
Those darn debauched Southerners. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-05-13-0004&chAction=T) Bonus points for:i never seen engrish this bad, it hurt more when i used a asian accent on this.QuoteHis sexual scandal disclosed the naked south Korea before the eyes of the world.
She swaggered while speaking at the Congress.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 14, 2013, 12:44:50 am
Post by: hops on May 14, 2013, 12:45:23 am
Quote
During the recent junket of the south Korean chief executive to the United States, a sexual immortality was committed by Yun Chang Jung, chief spokesman for Chongwadae accompanying her.
They are developing a technology that gives you an immortal boner.
I KNEW IT! South Koreans are the villains here, guys. The North Koreans are clearly just trying to stop them from causing our dicks to explode.
Post by: Tellemurius on May 14, 2013, 12:47:46 am
NOO DONT TAKE MY VIAGRA!!!! >:CQuoteDuring the recent junket of the south Korean chief executive to the United States, a sexual immortality was committed by Yun Chang Jung, chief spokesman for Chongwadae accompanying her.
They are developing a technology that gives you an immortal boner.
I KNEW IT! South Koreans are the villains here, guys. The North Koreans are clearly just trying to stop them from causing our dicks to explode.
Post by: misko27 on May 14, 2013, 12:48:41 am
Quote
During the recent junket of the south Korean chief executive to the United States, a sexual immortality was committed by Yun Chang Jung, chief spokesman for Chongwadae accompanying her.To the Sig thread Robin!
Post by: hops on May 14, 2013, 12:50:27 am
Too much context if you ask me. Anybody can easily deduce it's written by a North Korean.QuoteDuring the recent junket of the south Korean chief executive to the United States, a sexual immortality was committed by Yun Chang Jung, chief spokesman for Chongwadae accompanying her.To the Sig thread Robin!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 14, 2013, 02:28:08 am
Those darn debauched Southerners. (http://www.rodong.rep.kp/InterEn/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsID=2013-05-13-0004&chAction=T) Bonus points for:Can someone Pastebin the article for me? ISP blocks rodong, [irl=http://warning.or.kr]leading to here.[/url].QuoteHis sexual scandal disclosed the naked south Korea before the eyes of the world.
She swaggered while speaking at the Congress.
Post by: Sheb on May 14, 2013, 02:49:57 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 14, 2013, 05:03:43 am
8)
at least we put our swag on in the mourning.
Yeeeeeeaaaaaaah.
I'm sure there's a much better pun that could be made here, but at seven in the morning I don't have enough swag to figure out what it is.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2013, 08:03:03 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 14, 2013, 09:25:10 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 14, 2013, 02:10:37 pm
Park: Hey, let's put a park dedicated to world peace in a place where by definition no military personnel may enter!
NK:RAGE!
(http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10567)
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 14, 2013, 06:37:10 pm
Post by: Sigulbard on May 16, 2013, 11:00:02 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 16, 2013, 12:11:46 pm
Not everything's a bloody game. Edit: alright, i see that last post. Nevertheless, less flippancy would be appreciated.Welcome to the Internet, where no topic is too serious to be treated with flippancy and everything's a bloody game.
Why didn't you put '[North Korea thread]' ?Probably wasn't enough room
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 16, 2013, 05:16:50 pm
Post by: kaenneth on May 16, 2013, 07:52:54 pm
Agricultural work is fine for kids, within (significant) limits.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 16, 2013, 08:55:55 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 18, 2013, 12:46:55 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 18, 2013, 01:04:06 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on May 18, 2013, 01:06:38 pm
North Korea launched some missiles today. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10580)
Spoiler: top seecrt image of missile raunch (click to show/hide)
Post by: werty892 on May 18, 2013, 01:17:02 pm
This must be preserved.North Korea launched some missiles today. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=10580)Spoiler: top seecrt image of missile raunch (click to show/hide)
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 18, 2013, 03:27:07 pm
Not everything's a bloody game. Edit: alright, i see that last post. Nevertheless, less flippancy would be appreciated.Welcome to the Internet, where no topic is too serious to be treated with flippancy and everything's a bloody game.Why didn't you put '[North Korea thread]' ?Probably wasn't enough room
In retrospect, I suppose it's an effective coping mechanism, if not effective enough as usual.
Post by: misko27 on May 18, 2013, 07:49:16 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 19, 2013, 02:25:09 pm
or Kim is pulling a Caligula and attacking the Ocean.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 19, 2013, 03:06:22 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 19, 2013, 03:11:43 pm
Something new, North Korea has launched another "projectile" as it is now called. Possibly a test of multiple missile launcher.
or Kim is pulling a Caligula and attacking the Ocean.
I always associate despots and the ocean with King Cnut.
Post by: Sir Finkus on May 19, 2013, 03:14:32 pm
Post by: alway on May 19, 2013, 10:12:34 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 20, 2013, 03:13:22 am
And more importantly, why?
Post by: Sir Finkus on May 20, 2013, 03:16:57 am
Wait when did the title change to rocket lawnchairs?North Korea keeps launching rockets into the ocean, they just launched a few more a couple hours ago.
And more importantly, why?
Post by: Max White on May 20, 2013, 03:23:12 am
Post by: hops on May 20, 2013, 03:53:51 am
Post by: Rose on May 20, 2013, 03:57:01 am
Post by: Xantalos on May 20, 2013, 03:57:53 am
So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 20, 2013, 04:01:46 am
So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?No, they're at war with Pacifica, gosh.
Post by: hops on May 20, 2013, 04:05:29 am
M-m-me s-s-sigged?So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
*pinches self*
*faints*
Post by: Xantalos on May 20, 2013, 04:09:41 am
Don't feel too special; my sig post is a mile wide.M-m-me s-s-sigged?So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
*pinches self*
*faints*
Post by: hops on May 20, 2013, 04:12:59 am
Heh, at least it's special to me, since what I says tend to sound boring and dumb.Don't feel too special; my sig post is a mile wide.M-m-me s-s-sigged?So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
*pinches self*
*faints*
Post by: Rose on May 20, 2013, 04:47:18 am
But all is says is "Sig"Don't feel too special; my sig post is a mile wide.M-m-me s-s-sigged?So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
*pinches self*
*faints*
Post by: Xantalos on May 20, 2013, 04:49:40 am
*Morpheus*But all is says is "Sig"Don't feel too special; my sig post is a mile wide.M-m-me s-s-sigged?So North Korea is at war with Atlantis now?Sig'd and OOC'd.
*pinches self*
*faints*
Click the
Post by: Rose on May 20, 2013, 05:23:05 am
Post by: werty892 on May 20, 2013, 05:27:32 am
It's orange, and it it's linked, it's not part of the sig.*twitch*
Post by: Xantalos on May 20, 2013, 06:01:53 am
It's orange, and it it's linked, it's not part of the sig.What you see is only a fraction of my true sig. Beyond the link lies a post so large it's nearing the character limit.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 20, 2013, 09:19:38 am
/me blames 4am me for not realizing it was "Rocket Launchers" not "Rocket Lawnchairs"Wait when did the title change to rocket lawnchairs?North Korea keeps launching rockets into the ocean, they just launched a few more a couple hours ago.
And more importantly, why?
Post by: Mephansteras on May 20, 2013, 11:07:18 am
/me blames 4am me for not realizing it was "Rocket Launchers" not "Rocket Lawnchairs"Wait when did the title change to rocket lawnchairs?North Korea keeps launching rockets into the ocean, they just launched a few more a couple hours ago.
And more importantly, why?
You know...I think my opinion of North Korea would actually go up if they were firing Rocket Lawnchairs into the ocean, just for kicks.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 20, 2013, 01:07:20 pm
Can't imagine this will make China too happy: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/05/20135201381769440.htmlhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/world/north-korea-holding-chinese-boat-hostage/2013/05/20/9f3af666-c137-11e2-ab60-67bba7be7813_story.html?wprss=rss_world
It's amazing how different news weavers present their narratives
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 20, 2013, 03:33:48 pm
SK: Can we talk about this whole Kaesong closing situation?
NK: HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST RATIONAL DEBATE OVER THIS SUBJECT!
(http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10583)
Post by: Siquo on May 21, 2013, 06:35:26 am
I love how they combine "sending faxes" and "firing short-range missiles" in one sentence.
SK: Can we talk about this whole Kaesong closing situation?
NK: HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST RATIONAL DEBATE OVER THIS SUBJECT!
(http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01700&num=10583)
Post by: werty892 on May 21, 2013, 07:49:27 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 21, 2013, 08:07:57 am
They are too poor to have a fax line so they fax by missile.Truly, no form of communication could be more glorious than fax missiles.
PEAK GLORY ACHIEVED.
Post by: DWC on May 21, 2013, 11:12:55 am
Post by: Owlbread on May 21, 2013, 11:22:13 am
They've also done this before with the whole kidnapping thing. It's probably tied to some dispute with the Chinese government that we aren't privy to.
Post by: DWC on May 21, 2013, 11:35:54 am
haha, yeah. Afaik, Caligula wasn't even that deranged compared to say Nero or somebody, it was just that stupid movie that propagated the idea.
Post by: Haspen on May 21, 2013, 11:51:02 am
Nero was pervert and murderous psycho :P
Post by: tahujdt on May 21, 2013, 12:37:35 pm
Caligula was perverted psycho and murderer.Is there anything to distinguish him from any other Roman Emperor?
Nero was pervert and murderous psycho :P
Post by: Pnx on May 21, 2013, 12:43:38 pm
The Romans were not always very unbiased sources of historical records, and it's thought that people started spreading rumours about him being an insane deviant when he started trying to expand the powers of the Roman Emperor to the detriment of the upper class. Especially since up until about two years after his reign began there's absolutely no mention of crazy stuff at all as regards him.
Post by: tahujdt on May 21, 2013, 12:44:48 pm
Especially since up until about two years after his reign began there's absolutely no mention of crazy stuff at all as regards him.Almost as if he had the power to execute anybody who disagreed with him.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 21, 2013, 12:55:16 pm
((Hint: Allmost all roman Historians are senators.))
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 21, 2013, 12:57:26 pm
Post by: Pnx on May 21, 2013, 01:01:24 pm
And he suddenly stopped having this power two years in?Especially since up until about two years after his reign began there's absolutely no mention of crazy stuff at all as regards him.Almost as if he had the power to execute anybody who disagreed with him.
It's also worth mentioning there's room for alternate character interpretation on some of his more famous actions, like the appointing his horse a senator thing.
See the emperor and the senate often had power struggles, but these were ones the emperor would typically win because of the emperor's ability to appoint new senators (it was actually this power that the original Julius Caesar used to make himself emperor in the first place, he filled the senate with cronies that would vote for more power for him). When he appointed his horse a senator he might have just been making a political statement on how the senate was an impotent institution, and possibly saying something along the lines of "even my horse can be a senator".
Post by: Culise on May 21, 2013, 03:18:29 pm
Or that a horse would still be a better senator than most of the ones he had to actually deal with, which is the interpretation I'm partial to. :DAnd he suddenly stopped having this power two years in?Especially since up until about two years after his reign began there's absolutely no mention of crazy stuff at all as regards him.Almost as if he had the power to execute anybody who disagreed with him.
It's also worth mentioning there's room for alternate character interpretation on some of his more famous actions, like the appointing his horse a senator thing.
See the emperor and the senate often had power struggles, but these were ones the emperor would typically win because of the emperor's ability to appoint new senators (it was actually this power that the original Julius Caesar used to make himself emperor in the first place, he filled the senate with cronies that would vote for more power for him). When he appointed his horse a senator he might have just been making a political statement on how the senate was an impotent institution, and possibly saying something along the lines of "even my horse can be a senator".
The aforementioned Nero really does get a bad rap for the Great Fire, though. Most historians after him for quite some time repeated the old maxim that he fiddled (or played the lyre) while Rome burned, or less anachronistically, that he sang the Sack of Illium. However, what of Tacitus, the historian that actually lived through it as a child and later wrote of it in his histories? Tacitus reports that Nero returned immediately to Rome and organized a massive relief effort and urban renovation that he funded through a combination of increased tributes from the provinces and his own funds. Then, Nero blamed the Christians for the fire, because the people demanded a culprit for the devastation, and it was either making the Christians a scapegoat or ending up being the scapegoat himself. "Fiddling while Rome burned" was the revenge of Senators upset about the significant increases in taxation/tributes that were the cost of Nero's urban renewal/bread and circus policies, that he supported the rights of the freedmen over the patrons (i.e., the Senatorial aristocracy), that he tended to pander to the lower classes in ways they considered shameful or immoral (public performances, opening theatres), and that he ruled Rome in a time of economic unrest and instability (either due to his own policies or by already-extant issues at the time of his accession); it was then subsequently perpetuated by early Christians after they finally came to power.
Post by: tahujdt on May 21, 2013, 03:38:51 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 21, 2013, 04:06:35 pm
The aforementioned Nero really does get a bad rap for the Great Fire, though. Most historians after him for quite some time repeated the old maxim that he fiddled (or played the lyre) while Rome burned, or less anachronistically, that he sang the Sack of Illium. However, what of Tacitus, the historian that actually lived through it as a child and later wrote of it in his histories? Tacitus reports that Nero returned immediately to Rome and organized a massive relief effort and urban renovation that he funded through a combination of increased tributes from the provinces and his own funds. Then, Nero blamed the Christians for the fire, because the people demanded a culprit for the devastation, and it was either making the Christians a scapegoat or ending up being the scapegoat himself. "Fiddling while Rome burned" was the revenge of Senators upset about the significant increases in taxation/tributes that were the cost of Nero's urban renewal/bread and circus policies, that he supported the rights of the freedmen over the patrons (i.e., the Senatorial aristocracy), that he tended to pander to the lower classes in ways they considered shameful or immoral (public performances, opening theatres), and that he ruled Rome in a time of economic unrest and instability (either due to his own policies or by already-extant issues at the time of his accession); it was then subsequently perpetuated by early Christians after they finally came to power.
Ow, don't go saying Tacitus liked Nero. Because well, he frequently accuses Nero of fueling the fire, preventing fire extinguishing attempts, all to build his own awesome palace on the ruins*. He also clearly states that all these rebuilding efforts were not done out of compassion with the people, but in order to gain popularity with them. He concludes that this attempt was unsuccesfull.
((And that's ignoring the incest tales, murdering his brother, his mother, and many others, ...))
And yeah, the Early Christians didn't like Nero. For a decent reasons though, as he liked to use them as candles.
*Which is an unfortunate coincidence, isn't it.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 21, 2013, 07:50:09 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 21, 2013, 07:58:03 pm
Post by: Fniff on May 21, 2013, 08:00:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 21, 2013, 08:03:04 pm
I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.
Niyasow was probably poisoned but at least he died ruling the nation. Same with Stalin.
Post by: Devling on May 21, 2013, 08:05:29 pm
I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.Probably a bunch actually.
Also depends on how liberally you apply "Dictator".
Post by: misko27 on May 21, 2013, 08:18:55 pm
Caligula, lasted a far shorter time before people ended him. That should say something in and of itself.
Post by: Xantalos on May 21, 2013, 10:16:49 pm
Stalin had a stroke and died after several hours of lying in his own shit.I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.
Niyasow was probably poisoned but at least he died ruling the nation. Same with Stalin.
Not really peaceful.
Post by: Devling on May 21, 2013, 10:38:57 pm
Most Serene Glorious Leader.Stalin had a stroke and died after several hours of lying in his own shit.I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.
Niyasow was probably poisoned but at least he died ruling the nation. Same with Stalin.
Not really peaceful.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 22, 2013, 02:06:50 am
I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.Francisco Franco, the fascist dictator of Spain. He took control of Spain in 1939, when he crushed the last pockets of resistance of the democratic Republican government, ending the Spanish Civil War. His rule ended in 1975, when he died of natural causes.
He supported the Axis during World War II and imprisoned his political enemies in labour camps. But he got away with it, because his internal policy was anti-communist and and because he was an American ally during the Cold War (and it is widely known that being an American ally guarantees that you won't get on the "Horrible totalitarian dictators who oppress their own people" list, provided that you don't outlive your usefulness)
Post by: Skyrunner on May 22, 2013, 02:10:33 am
Though I don't think it quite counts, Jun Duwhan of Korea dictatored for a long while before being succeeded. He's still alive and rich. In fact, his military coup is legal, because 'a successful coup is legitimate.'I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.Probably a bunch actually.
Also depends on how liberally you apply "Dictator".
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 22, 2013, 02:12:58 am
I do wonder how things would have been had the Republican factions won. There are people who think it would have lead to communist dictatorship, but I don't think so. The communists were too small to break with the anarchists and the democrats.I wonder how many dictators have died peacefully in their beds while still ruling their nation.Francisco Franco, the fascist dictator of Spain. He took control of Spain in 1939, when he crushed the last pockets of resistance of the democratic Republican government, ending the Spanish Civil War. His rule ended in 1975, when he died of natural causes.
He supported the Axis during World War II and imprisoned his political enemies in labour camps. But he got away with it, because his internal policy was anti-communist and during the Cold War he was an American ally.
Though I don't think it quite counts, Jun Duwhan of Korea dictatored for a long while before being succeeded. He's still alive and rich. In fact, his military coup is legal, because 'a successful coup is legitimate.'This is probably the only successful way to be a dictator. If you don't get the fuck out before people care about killing you more than dying, or try to hold onto power once that happens, you're gonna have a bad time.
Post by: DJ on May 22, 2013, 02:18:02 am
Post by: Pnx on May 22, 2013, 02:29:21 am
Sometimes there's major events or battles that could have gone either way and swung the war in a different direction, but most of the time these things were won by one side because that side was the one the odds were stacked in favour of.
For example, WW1 could basically have never played out any other way. It was won by the allies because while most of the world was involved in the war, most of it was working against the central powers. It was pretty much Austra/Germany against the world. It's pretty unlikely given the political situation that it would have played out any other way.
Same goes for the Spanish Civil war, I think, though it was a lot more of a complex situation.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 22, 2013, 04:18:38 am
Same goes for the Spanish Civil war, I think, though it was a lot more of a complex situation.I disagree. The Republicans lost because they were receiving insufficient military aid from the Soviet Union, while Germany and Italy's economic recovery allowed them to support the Nationalists.
Had the US, France, and UK gotten over their communist scare and supported the Republicans alongside the Soviet Union, I think the Republicans would have won. This was no small faction. If I recall correctly, they were actually winning the war until the Nationalists got Axis backing. There was certainly no problem of morale, as evidence by a bunch of Republican forces retreating into the mountains and making a habit of shooting at any of Franco's people they could get at for 20 years after the accepted end of the war.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 22, 2013, 04:40:05 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 22, 2013, 05:39:46 am
Post by: Owlbread on May 22, 2013, 06:40:01 am
Stalin had a stroke and died after several hours of lying in his own shit.
Not really peaceful.
I never said it was peaceful, I said he died ruling his nation. A lot of old people have strokes and die after several hours of lying in their own shit though, that's considered dying of natural causes and such. Peaceful by modern standards.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 22, 2013, 06:47:46 am
What if the communism scare never happened?In my opinion, the communist parties would gain enough power and popularity (especially during financial crises) to influence the political decisions of Western governments. No one in the ruling elite would let them win the elections and form the government, though, for obvious reasons.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 22, 2013, 06:52:26 am
What would be different?
How would things look today?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 22, 2013, 06:54:14 am
Then Winter came and they all froze to death. Not much changed.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 22, 2013, 06:57:42 am
Well, they did.I meant a full-scale colonization, such as after Columbus "discovered" it?
Then Winter came and they all froze to death. Not much changed.
edit: Maybe 'colonization' is a wrong word for this, 'invasion' would be better perhaps?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 22, 2013, 07:06:34 am
It's unlikely that the Vikings would've survived that. Any remainders would likely integrate with the natives.
Post by: Sheb on May 22, 2013, 08:21:36 am
Post by: misko27 on May 22, 2013, 08:58:11 am
Post by: DJ on May 22, 2013, 09:21:18 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 22, 2013, 09:24:55 am
Yeah, but these were freaking Vikings.Reading about the first viking-skraeling encounters are hilarious in so many ways.
Post by: DWC on May 22, 2013, 10:26:02 am
I wonder more what would have happened if the allies never landed in Normandy during WWII and the USSR steam rolled through all the way to the Atlantic Ocean and down the boot of Italy. Stalin even wanted to continue the war after Germany's defeat in Spain and Portugal because of the right wing governments there, so they might have taken the whole of mainland Europe.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 22, 2013, 12:10:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 22, 2013, 12:12:54 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 22, 2013, 12:21:12 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 22, 2013, 12:42:54 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 22, 2013, 02:09:16 pm
Post by: Xantalos on May 22, 2013, 02:14:49 pm
Note: comedy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cG7ZVBXQII)
Post by: jimboo on May 27, 2013, 07:44:09 am
This is a special weekend so I copy-n-paste from yesterday’s op-ed page.
Happy long weekend to everyone,
jimboo
******************************************
EDITORIAL
Silence on This Day
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
Published: May 26, 2013
If you listen carefully, you can almost hear the silence at the heart of Memorial Day — the inward turn that thoughts take on a day set aside to honor the men and women who have died in the service of this country.
It is the silence of soldiers who have not yet been, and may never be, able to talk about what they learned in war, the silence of grief so familiar that it feels like a second heartbeat. This is a day for acknowledging, publicly, the private memorial days that lie scattered throughout the year, a day when all the military graves are tended to, even the ones that someone tends to regularly as a way of remembering.
It always seems strange the way the fond, sober gestures of memory coincide with the last flush of spring, while the trees are still lit from within by their chartreuse leaves. The year is still rising, just. And yet it is something you often see recorded in the books and diaries of men and women at war — the sharp interruption of beauty, the moments, hours even, when the vivid tenacity of life itself feels most tangible, even in the midst of death. On a bright, beautiful Memorial Day, you feel, as clearly as you may ever feel, the profound separation between the living and the dead. This is the strangeness of the day, because that separation is a source of both joy and loss.
A nation at war — trying to end its war — needs to remember that despite the simple stories we tell ourselves about why we go to war, every soldier who has seen combat knows there is no simple story. The dead have taken that awareness with them, but the living carry it, usually silently, within them. That, too, is the strangeness of this day — to honor men and women who know things about living, dying, and the character of war that we can never really imagine. It should arouse a humility in all the rest of us, and in humility there is a silence, too.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 27, 2013, 08:24:54 am
There have been some amusing and entertaining comments made on this thread about Kim Young-Un. But I’m going to take a shot and guess that of everyone who occasionally logs onto Bay12, I’m one of few who ever worried their draft number would be called in the upcoming lottery. Similarly, probably not many of you subscribe to The New York Times. :)Judging by the overall tendencies in international politics and economics, I'm afraid I'll have to fight on the frontlines of World War III at some point in the future.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 08:40:47 am
There have been some amusing and entertaining comments made on this thread about Kim Young-Un. But I’m going to take a shot and guess that of everyone who occasionally logs onto Bay12, I’m one of few who ever worried their draft number would be called in the upcoming lottery. Similarly, probably not many of you subscribe to The New York Times. :)Good chances stand that a world war III will not be caused by North Korea. Plus the majority of casualties ever since WWII have always been civilians.
If war is inevitable, some us fighting is inevitable, most of us dying is inevitable, why not enjoy what we have until the inevitable?
Also cheer up, no need to make a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 08:46:21 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 08:47:59 am
If there's a draft I'm going to hack my own foot off before I fight for the British crown.What, no armed revolt?
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 08:49:10 am
What, no armed revolt?
I don't think I'm enough of a violent man to kill in the name of a political cause. Very few causes are worth doing that, even one that I feel so strongly about. It would all depend on the situation at the time of course - if the UK had decided to go to war with the Chinese without our own territory being invaded or something, I'm sure our parliament up here would declare itself independent and neutral. We're not going to get sucked into something like that again, not after everything we've suffered.
If of course we had a Labour government in our parliament that would refuse to stay neutral, as they would, I would consider something like a coup in the name of peace.
Post by: PanH on May 27, 2013, 09:02:09 am
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:06:35 am
There's better ways than hacking your foot.
I suppose I do have flat feet so maybe I wouldn't have to. What would you recommend? I heard about a Polish guy who tried to get a lion to attack him so he could avoid national service and it tore his arm off.
Post by: Gamerlord on May 27, 2013, 09:08:52 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:08:52 am
I mean, there's also no real draft anymore. But if there was!
Post by: Sirus on May 27, 2013, 09:10:36 am
I've never understood why people go to such great lengths to avoid service in the military...Also this. Why permanently maim yourself?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2013, 09:13:05 am
Myself I couldn't care less. Should I get constripted I'd enter from minute 1 as an officer and would never get to see the frontline. So it'd be a temporary annoyance at worst. 8)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 09:13:30 am
If there's a draft I'm going to hack my own foot off before I fight for the British crown, unless of course we were the ones being invaded.Calm down Owlbread, no need for foot hacking. Britain's military is volunteer only and the only two times we had conscriptions there was such a thing as conscientious objection.
But seriously, keep your feet.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:14:44 am
Calm down Owlbread, no need for foot hacking. Britain's military is volunteer only and the only two times we had conscriptions there was such a thing as conscientious objection.
But seriously, keep your feet.
I always think if I had to lose any appendages I'd choose a foot.
...because it's better than getting shot and killed. Probably not better than fleeing to a neighbouring country, though.
Myself I couldn't care less. Should I get constripted I'd enter as an officer and would never get to see the frontline. So it'd be a temporary annoyance at worst. 8)
It's better for me than fighting for Britain, I can say that much. Even with respect to joining the medical corps, I'd much rather join something like the Red Cross.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:15:57 am
Still gotta register for Selective Service, but the chance of an actual draft is exceedingly slim.Hence the statement, "no real draft". Selective Service might also be on it's way out. With women allowed in all positions the rationale for keeping it men-only is gone, and it is at this point more rational to just get rid of it instead of extending it to all citizens. Volunteers forces are simply superior to drafted ones, and even at peace the US has no shortage of volunteers. The Vietnam Era this ain't.
...because it's better than getting shot and killed. Probably not better than fleeing to a neighbouring country, though.No wonder enlisted men seem to hate officers so much. (Not that I wouldn't do the exact same thing.)
Myself I couldn't care less. Should I get constripted I'd enter as an officer and would never get to see the frontline. So it'd be a temporary annoyance at worst. 8)
No, see, it's a metaphor. He'll hack off his feet to symbolize Scotland hacking off England.If there's a draft I'm going to hack my own foot off before I fight for the British crown, unless of course we were the ones being invaded.Calm down Owlbread, no need for foot hacking. Britain's military is volunteer only and the only two times we had conscriptions there was such a thing as conscientious objection.
But seriously, keep your feet.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2013, 09:16:13 am
I'd choose an ear.Calm down Owlbread, no need for foot hacking. Britain's military is volunteer only and the only two times we had conscriptions there was such a thing as conscientious objection.
But seriously, keep your feet.
I always think if I had to lose any appendages I'd choose a foot.
Quote
No wonder enlisted men seem to hate officers so much. (Not that I wouldn't do the exact same thing.)You misunderstand. As a physician I'd enter with an officer rank (IIRC at least here any doctor that joins the army starts off as liutenaunt by default) and get stuck in some field hospital somewhere, which is far better than the frontlines. Might even qualify for Geneva convention special protection. Luckily for me we're not so plentiful as to be casually used as cannon fodder.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:16:49 am
No, see, it's a metaphor. He'll hack off his feet to symbolize Scotland hacking off England.
Very good. I am impressed, Mr. Hunt.
I'd choose an ear.
But that would severely impair your sense of hearing. I'd rather have my ability to walk somewhat impaired than a sense - we can get prosthetic limbs, but senses just don't come back. Not at this moment, anyway. Beyond stuff like that technology that allows blind people to see the outlines of shapes on their tongues and things.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:18:23 am
I'd choose an ear.You're only saying that because you have the knowledge that it would be by far the easiest to remove.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 09:20:52 am
If you have two feet, you're no true Scotsman!No, see, it's a metaphor. He'll hack off his feet to symbolize Scotland hacking off England.Very good. I am impressed, Mr. Hunt.
Right hand little finger.I'd choose an ear.You're only saying that because you have the knowledge that it would be by far the easiest to remove.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:21:05 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 09:23:16 am
I've always thought that if I did lose a limb, I'd have my prosthesis custom made with built-in lighters and pencils and a swiss army knife. Maybe a comb.And a cup holder. Never forget.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:24:26 am
If you have two feet, you're no true Scotsman!
Very true. It didn't stop this Scottish kitten either: behold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KQQTMmS7V2E)
Quote
Right hand little finger.
But that would impair your ability to type. Losing any finger is a fear of mine.
I maintain that this man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLepHKj4k) should be the role model for all people with missing arms.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:27:00 am
Right hand little finger.Harder. Ear is not well attached, hardest material is cartilage, low nerve endings, and you aren't likely to bleed out due to the lack of vital arteries. There are even stories of people ripping off their own ears by pulling on them hard enough.
Your fingers, on the other hand, are very strongly attached, hardest material is bone, HIGH HIGH HIGH nerve endings, and you are very likely to bleed out without medical attention.
If I ever need a prosthesis I'm filling it with as many flashbangs as I can fit. Think you're going to mug the cripple? Think again, motherfucker!I've always thought that if I did lose a limb, I'd have my prosthesis custom made with built-in lighters and pencils and a swiss army knife. Maybe a comb.And a cup holder. Never forget.
Of course, that's kind of a double edged sword.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2013, 09:27:36 am
But that would severely impair your sense of hearing. I'd rather have my ability to walk somewhat impaired than a sense - we can get prosthetic limbs, but senses just don't come back. Not at this moment, anyway. Beyond stuff like that technology that allows blind people to see the outlines of shapes on their tongues and things.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MCU3nnVJwDc/TVIO3QAraUI/AAAAAAAACDg/rg2WT5xSEG0/s1600/mouse-human-ear.jpg)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:28:44 am
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:28:56 am
Post by: Gamerlord on May 27, 2013, 09:40:36 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2013, 09:41:27 am
If I had to lose something I would choose my right eye. The thing is bloody useless! I see better with it closed!You sure about that? Without two channels you automatically have zero depth perception.
Post by: Moghjubar on May 27, 2013, 09:51:42 am
Post by: DJ on May 27, 2013, 09:55:54 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2013, 10:08:42 am
Just cut off your brain. No need for sanity!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nauLgZISozs
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 10:12:38 am
'What is it lieughtenant?'
'This one doesn't have a foot.'
'Why's he in the army then?'
'It's not just him. No fingers, no ears, no eyes...
This one cut his own head off. We're still trying to find out why he's still walking around.'
'Is this some ploy of the enemy?! Have we been defeated?!'
'I don't know sir. I just. Don't know.'
Post by: Devling on May 27, 2013, 10:26:23 am
Post by: Xantalos on May 27, 2013, 01:28:12 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 01:56:15 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on May 27, 2013, 02:03:09 pm
Post by: Devling on May 27, 2013, 02:04:25 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 02:10:39 pm
Because the devil takes residences in the big toe.
Very true. Didn't that kill Bob Marley? When he stubbed his big toe he activated his cancer or something?
Wait... sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 27, 2013, 03:49:22 pm
Why is the default solution to you guys' problems cutting someone's feet off?(http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18900000/Billy-saw-18906355-224-170.jpg)
Post by: Xantalos on May 27, 2013, 03:50:33 pm
Playing soccer or something, he broke his toe and got gangrene.Because the devil takes residences in the big toe.
Very true. Didn't that kill Bob Marley? When he stubbed his big toe he activated his cancer or something?
Wait... sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Post by: DarkWolfXV on May 27, 2013, 03:57:52 pm
Playing soccer or something, he broke his toe and got gangrene.Because the devil takes residences in the big toe.
Very true. Didn't that kill Bob Marley? When he stubbed his big toe he activated his cancer or something?
Wait... sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Thats the proof that playing sports is dangerous and life threatening. Its better to stick at home, doing various... stuff...
Like... Playing dwarf fortress?
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 04:00:33 pm
Thats the proof that playing sports is dangerous and life threatening. Its better to stick at home, doing various... stuff...Which is more likely to end the world, sport or Dwarf Fortress?
Like... Playing dwarf fortress?
Thought so.
Post by: Xantalos on May 27, 2013, 04:03:06 pm
I'm pretty sure Bob Marley would be the most compassionate Overseer ever if he played DF.Thats the proof that playing sports is dangerous and life threatening. Its better to stick at home, doing various... stuff...Which is more likely to end the world, sport or Dwarf Fortress?
Like... Playing dwarf fortress?
Thought so.
Seriously. His forts would be paradises.
Post by: PanH on May 27, 2013, 04:09:53 pm
Though, fleeing is better.
Post by: Tellemurius on May 27, 2013, 05:37:14 pm
I would cut off my hair if I was drafted.Word of advice, they still shave your bald head ;D
Family is military so im not at all distressed if there was a call out for draft, granted they stick me into demolitions >:D
Post by: Just Some Guy on May 27, 2013, 06:19:59 pm
Post by: Felius on May 27, 2013, 06:58:45 pm
North Korean teenagers are either really impressionable or the government is trying to scare 'em straight. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10603)The crime seems to be most of the time, teenagers getting it on with each other apparently.
Quote
“The thing is that at the beginning of May some boys and girls from a senior middle school in Pyongsung City went en masse to a local sauna where they engaged in some disgraceful sexual behaviour; that is where the crackdown began. They questioned the students, and found that they had been copying something they saw in a Chinese movie,” the source explained.They are also so horny, that when their parents try to stop it, they decide that axe murder is the best solution:
Quote
Back in 2008, for example, the drunk father of a 16-year old female student from the Wiyeon district of Hyesan was murdered with a hatchet by his daughter after trying to stop her engaging in lewd behaviour with a male student.
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 07:06:49 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 07:08:47 pm
Good ol' hatchet discipline. Kids misbehaving? Bring out the hatchet.QuoteBack in 2008, for example, the drunk father of a 16-year old female student from the Wiyeon district of Hyesan was murdered with a hatchet by his daughter after trying to stop her engaging in lewd behaviour with a male student.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 27, 2013, 07:11:55 pm
I think you should probably reread that quote.Good ol' hatchet discipline. Kids misbehaving? Bring out the hatchet.QuoteBack in 2008, for example, the drunk father of a 16-year old female student from the Wiyeon district of Hyesan was murdered with a hatchet by his daughter after trying to stop her engaging in lewd behaviour with a male student.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2013, 07:30:01 pm
I think you should probably reread that quote.Good ol' hatchet communication. Problem with language barriers? Bring out the hatchet.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 27, 2013, 07:34:27 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2013, 07:46:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 08:27:20 pm
That makes perfect sense. Instead of educating students as to why public sauna orgies are a bad idea, more censorship! Wait, why are sauna orgies a bad idea? In a general sense, that is, not in this specific instance.
They aren't, but the specific instance matters quite a bit. North Korea may be pseudo-Communist but they're very conservative socially. Women riding bicycles is seen as disgustingly obscene. In one book I read about North Korean defectors a woman riding a bicycle was verbally abused by men from her village, shouting "You're going to tear your cunt!" at her. If a woman riding a bicycle is seen as obscene imagine how bad sauna orgies are.
Post by: MorleyDev on May 27, 2013, 08:30:58 pm
a woman riding a bicycle was verbally abused by men from her village, shouting "You're going to tear your cunt!" at her
What the...that doesn't...how...what? By that logic, a man riding a bicycle is going to demolish his ball sack! 0_o That's...it's not *that* intensive an exercise people!
Post by: Gamerlord on May 27, 2013, 08:52:42 pm
Maybe we who suffer from bicycle-riding-hurts-our-balls just have larger equipment than you...a woman riding a bicycle was verbally abused by men from her village, shouting "You're going to tear your cunt!" at her
What the...that doesn't...how...what? By that logic, a man riding a bicycle is going to demolish his ball sack! 0_o That's...it's not *that* intensive an exercise people!
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 27, 2013, 08:53:09 pm
a woman riding a bicycle was verbally abused by men from her village, shouting "You're going to tear your cunt!" at herThey can afford bicycles?!
Post by: Devling on May 27, 2013, 08:56:08 pm
Post by: Owlbread on May 27, 2013, 09:04:43 pm
They can afford bicycles?!
They can indeed. Some have cars though they are rare. Bicycles are much more popular and are a common sight in the Hermit Kingdom.
(http://gdb.voanews.com/F50608BF-5D13-4BF0-8D9F-C9CDB37D8B06_w640_r1_s.jpg)
Actually, forgive me, I didn't realise they had banned women riding bicycles by law. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10231) I think that poor lassie was riding bicycles illicitly, that's why the men were hurling abuse at her. Besides the obvious cultural stigma.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on May 27, 2013, 09:26:57 pm
"The minstry for people's safety" sounds like it's from 1984... and we all know how the ministries in 1984 were named.Minisafe is the less-known one.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2013, 09:31:09 pm
Actually, forgive me, I didn't realise they had banned women riding bicycles by law. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=10231) I think that poor lassie was riding bicycles illicitly, that's why the men were hurling abuse at her. Besides the obvious cultural stigma.Okay, there's no way this isn't the government intentionally trolling people.
Quote
It is said that Kim Jong Il initially banned the use of bicycles in the 1990s after the daughter of a high-ranking official was killed in a traffic incident in Pyongyang. The North Korean state media subsequently justified it by saying that the image of a woman riding a bicycle runs contrary to socialist morals.ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 09:36:01 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2013, 10:23:45 pm
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 10:28:35 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2013, 10:37:51 pm
It also sounds like, prior to the initial lifting of the ban, it was basically a slap-on-the-wrist offense (~$40 US fine at the most), as opposed to confiscation. So it's essentially a move that will further damage their economy done for the sake of sexism and general stupidity, which tend to go hand in hand anyway.
Post by: Vector on May 27, 2013, 10:39:05 pm
Post by: hops on May 28, 2013, 03:14:35 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 28, 2013, 03:16:10 am
Post by: Sigulbard on May 28, 2013, 03:26:57 am
Post by: Sheb on May 28, 2013, 03:56:48 am
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6LX9S7Y1PZ0/TnvEUlxW7hI/AAAAAAAAAeU/pFnaZp1meY8/s1600/800px-Strechit_ca1800-1810_non-sidesaddle_sailor_caricature.jpg)
Post by: Vector on May 28, 2013, 04:15:28 am
Post by: Descan on May 28, 2013, 09:04:35 am
wut
Post by: Pnx on May 28, 2013, 12:37:34 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 28, 2013, 12:56:52 pm
White men. The original prudes. Accept no substitutes.
Post by: Just Some Guy on June 04, 2013, 08:13:47 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 04, 2013, 08:58:40 pm
Post by: Ameablable on June 05, 2013, 12:45:30 pm
BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 05, 2013, 12:46:13 pm
Do you realize that NK has already made nukes?BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Post by: Ameablable on June 05, 2013, 12:46:50 pm
yes but not good ones.Do you realize that NK has already made nukes?BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 05, 2013, 12:47:37 pm
BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Why would they get destroyed simply for making nukes? They've already made some, and we haven't destroyed them yet. And no other country that made nukes has been destroyed for doing so.
It raises tensions, yes, and there is the possibility of surgical strikes on their nuclear facilities, but it is extremely unlikely that anyone is going to attack them simply for making nukes.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 05, 2013, 12:48:34 pm
Still far superior to any conventional explosive. Making "good ones" requires more fissile material than NK is likely to ever have.yes but not good ones.Do you realize that NK has already made nukes?BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Post by: Ameablable on June 05, 2013, 12:51:26 pm
Well my only point is that they are threatening with nukes and now they are actively trying to build more.BREAKING NEWS: NEWS ABOUT NK! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22763278)does NK realize that if they actually make nukes, they get destroyed?
Why would they get destroyed simply for making nukes? They've already made some, and we haven't destroyed them yet. And no other country that made nukes has been destroyed for doing so.
It raises tensions, yes, and there is the possibility of surgical strikes on their nuclear facilities, but it is extremely unlikely that anyone is going to attack them simply for making nukes.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 05, 2013, 01:00:49 pm
So yeah, North Korea can go on and develop the bomb, and I don't think they will face many consequence. Not that we can stop them, they got the infrastructure, they have uranium mines, and they probably got the know how.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 05, 2013, 01:05:12 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 05, 2013, 01:07:06 pm
They don't need to develop a fancy multistage hydrogen bomb, as long as it explodes, it counts.
Post by: MonkeyHead on June 05, 2013, 01:08:19 pm
I'm not so sure they have the know how. Not even being able to break Fat Man-level nukes does not speak well of their abilities.
The tech level of a Fat-Man or Little-Boy is remarkably crude. The difficulty is in producing enough viable fissile material. This is why centrifuge sites have been hit by air strikes by nations such as Israel in the past.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 05, 2013, 01:09:19 pm
You have to remember that the NK government's goal is focused on keeping themselves in power. Everything else is secondary.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 06, 2013, 03:52:22 pm
Post by: DWC on June 11, 2013, 09:45:05 am
Especially since most of their policy is around internal politics and shows of strength anyway. They don't have to be able to use the nukes very well, they just have to be able to threaten people with them and look strong on the inside.
You have to remember that the NK government's goal is focused on keeping themselves in power. Everything else is secondary.
This.
Foreign observers keep wanting to look at NK like it's just another country with and they seem to give weight to their bullshit ideological statements and diplomatic complaints. The nation is not controlled by a responsible government, the regime is essentially a gang of criminal thugs that have seized the country as a fiefdom to extort and pillage as much as possible from them for their own personal gain.
It's a feudal monarchy, the actions the 'government' takes will be the preservation of the status quo for the benefit of the ruling family. This is true of almost all dictatorships, regardless of whatever ideological trappings or causes they purport, they'll throw the country into a bonfire before giving up power.
Post by: misko27 on June 11, 2013, 12:03:09 pm
Post by: ibot66 on June 11, 2013, 12:19:12 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 11, 2013, 05:33:29 pm
...Did the baby just make a gun?They were called off. Apparently, N. Korea doesn't want to talk to the south.Sounds like a three year old with another. 'I'm not talking to you because you didn't give the ball to me every time!'
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 11, 2013, 07:02:43 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 11, 2013, 08:45:30 pm
Perhaps they had second thoughts? I haven't the faintest idea what might have caused it though, pressure on them to enter talks is only increasing.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 22, 2013, 06:40:00 am
On an unrelated note, I've found a livestream of North Korean television. (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/elufa-tv) North Korean television broadcasts from 17:00 till 23:30 Korean Standard Time and from 6:00 till 0:00 KST on weekends and national holidays. (7:00-14:30 GMT/21:00-15:00 GMT). The stream seems to work sporadically, though.
Another North Korean television feed is http://112.170.78.145:50000/chosun (open in VLC Media Player).
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 22, 2013, 09:08:41 am
Anonymous member claims that they've successfully hacked North Korean military servers (http://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/06/22/anonymous-claims-hack-of-north-korean-servers/)The two most likely things to have happened:
- Nothing happened, it's a joke.
- It was the CIA.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 22, 2013, 10:34:16 am
The original North Korean article, titled "KCNA Commentary Terms Int'l Hackers' Plot Barking of Rabid Dogs", can be found on the KCNA website (http://www.kcna.kp/kcna.user.home.retrieveHomeInfoList.kcmsf).
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 22, 2013, 10:46:23 am
Korean Central News Agency's response to Anonymous. (http://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/06/22/kcna-hits-back-at-anonymous/)"-This provokes side-splitting laughter.”
The original North Korean article, titled "KCNA Commentary Terms Int'l Hackers' Plot Barking of Rabid Dogs", can be found on the KCNA website (http://www.kcna.kp/kcna.user.home.retrieveHomeInfoList.kcmsf).
My sides
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 22, 2013, 11:40:20 am
I am rather bored of simultaneously trivializing North Korea whilst mocking them for not killing everyone on Korea with war, conventional or nuclear. Can we pick one, or discuss North Korea in an objective fashion? I fear we aren't really paying attention much to human rights abuses and such as instead poking the coals of national egotism.
Seconded.
Post by: mainiac on June 22, 2013, 12:09:09 pm
Nice work Anonymous. They have imperiled tens of thousands of people because they wanted to be internet tough guys. Nice fucking work.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 22, 2013, 12:12:30 pm
So north korea has crap cyber security. This means that the worst koreans, americans and chinese can freely learn all their secret crap. And now Anonymous goes and draws best koreas attention to this fact, making it harder for people to spy on the best koreans. When dealing with an erratic rogue states, intel helps prevent conflicts that could cost tens of thousands of lives.They've done this before and announced it. It doesn't look like they've had any harder time this time around
Nice work Anonymous. They have imperiled tens of thousands of people because they wanted to be internet tough guys. Nice fucking work.
Post by: misko27 on June 22, 2013, 12:15:36 pm
Post by: Sigulbard on June 22, 2013, 12:20:49 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 22, 2013, 02:24:16 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 22, 2013, 02:27:56 pm
Anonymous is made up of riff raffs.
What big, useful things have they done? Is there something resembling central leadership?
Post by: Scelly9 on June 22, 2013, 02:31:11 pm
Other than the whole Scientology fiasco, not much. Not really.Anonymous is made up of riff raffs.
What big, useful things have they done? Is there something resembling central leadership?
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 22, 2013, 02:32:30 pm
Other than the whole Scientology fiasco, not much. Not really.Anonymous is made up of riff raffs.
What big, useful things have they done? Is there something resembling central leadership?
Heard about it, know very little about it. Please tell me more.
Post by: Descan on June 22, 2013, 02:35:15 pm
Don't ask me for specifics, I've forgotten.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 22, 2013, 02:35:42 pm
1. AnythingAnonymous is made up of riff raffs.
What big, useful things have they done? Is there something resembling central leadership?
2. Everyone and anyone
Post by: Scelly9 on June 22, 2013, 02:36:02 pm
Basically, they decided that Scientology was bad in general, so they DDOSed their websites, protested outside their buildings, spammed their printers, and where generally annoying. It raised some awareness against Scientology, but mostly just increased the size of Anonymous. It don't know a ton about it, but here's more info. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology)Other than the whole Scientology fiasco, not much. Not really.Anonymous is made up of riff raffs.
What big, useful things have they done? Is there something resembling central leadership?
Heard about it, know very little about it. Please tell me more.
Post by: Morrigi on June 22, 2013, 04:24:42 pm
They DDOS'd corporations that refused service to Wikileaks after they released their documents in 2010.
They created a script allowing Tunisians to proof their web browsers against government surveillance during the Arab Spring uprising there. They also hacked the Tunisian Prime Minister's webpage, replacing it with a message from Anonymous.
They hacked one of the Westboro Baptist Church's websites during a live interview and later released the personal information of members after the WBS announced plans to petition the funerals of the Sandy Hook shooting victims.
They appear at nearly every large-scale protest in the Western world.
They have shown that a group of random citizens can cause considerable change in the world, an example of which would be sending the U.S. Government on a wild goose chase after their "leaders".
They have found and reported a number of pedophiles and sex offenders after ordering dozens of pizzas to their houses.
They solved the Rehtaeh Parsons rape case in Canada after any efforts of prosecution was given up by the authorities due to a "lack of evidence". The perpetrators were identified after two hours.
They exposed the truth during the Steubenville rape case. The man allegedly behind the information gathered was arrested by an FBI S.W.A.T. team and may spend more time in jail than the rapists.
They cannot be stopped due to the complete lack of leadership and structure of crowd psychology.
They and corporations that support similar ideals are the last bastion of defense preventing the internet from being directly controlled by oppressive government regimes.
From nearly all political views, they have done at least some good for society in spite of their vigilante nature, and they will not be going away any time soon.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 22, 2013, 05:07:38 pm
'They and corporations that support similar ideals are the last bastion of defense preventing the internet from being directly controlled by oppressive government regimes.'Apart from that, a pretty good summary of what they do.
No. Just... no.
Post by: ibot66 on June 22, 2013, 07:36:55 pm
Yeah, last lines reeks of bias and propaganda. There a bunch of bored Internet assholes using their dickishness for fairly decent.'They and corporations that support similar ideals are the last bastion of defense preventing the internet from being directly controlled by oppressive government regimes.'Apart from that, a pretty good summary of what they do.
No. Just... no.
Post by: misko27 on June 22, 2013, 08:29:42 pm
They appear at nearly every large-scale protest in the Western world.So do Trotskyists. Think about it.
Quote
They have found and reported a number of pedophiles and sex offenders after ordering dozens of pizzas to their houses."We shall defeat them with Pizza! THEN THEY WILL GET DIABETES, AND DIE! MUAHAHAHHA!" Or does the pizza have a zombie plague or something?
Quote
They cannot be stopped due to the complete lack of leadership and structure of crowd psychology.Neither can the Trotskyists, again (Not after ol'Leon took a Ice Pick to the neck). They can be made irrelevant.
Quote
They and corporations that support similar ideals are the last bastion of defense preventing the internet from being directly controlled by oppressive government regimes.I fear corporations more then I fear my government. And more importantly I fear base humanity more then both of them. (And I fear Zombie Trotsky the most)
Quote
From nearly all political views, they have done at least some good for society in spite of their vigilante nature, and they will not be going away any time soon.What if, my political view was Authoritarian? What about my opinion? Or does that one not matter because it is wrong? And what if Zombie Trotsky wants me to oppress the masses? Your Philosophy does not account for that!!!!
Today I learned using the quote button inside another quote, on a new line, with the "toggle view" set to "what your post will look like" mode. reverses the order of the tags, allowing you to stick comments in easily. Is Good Day.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 22, 2013, 11:53:34 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on June 23, 2013, 04:06:55 am
Also they wear Guy Fawkes masks from V for Vendetta.
I find that an odd choice. Guy Fawkes was traitor who fought for the Spanish and later was part of a plot to murder a legitamite leader (who was a relativley good king given the standards of the day and well liked by the populace) motivated by a clash of religions.
Are Anonymous trying to tell us they want to blow up leaders that we like and that they will side with those who wish to see our way of life opressed?
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 23, 2013, 04:22:08 am
All you guys are pretty wrong about what Anonymous is and was.Also they wear Guy Fawkes masks from V for Vendetta.
I find that an odd choice. Guy Fawkes was traitor who fought for the Spanish and later was part of a plot to murder a legitamite leader (who was a relativley good king given the standards of the day and well liked by the populace) motivated by a clash of religions.
Are Anonymous trying to tell us they want to blow up leaders that we like and that they will side with those who wish to see our way of life opressed?
In addition the third wave has been taken over by political groups and intelligence agents, it stopped having any exclusivity a long, long time ago. By internet years.Well, methink Anonymous is pulling stuff out of their asses. Together with the realease of public document, it's really ridiculous.There is Anonymous, the state of being a part of the collective unknown. Then there is the group, which came in three waves.
First wave Anonymous were made up of Oldfriends who built totally unrestricted free speech ideals, where nothing was taboo'd enough to warrant use and abuse. Non extant, but there are groups who seek to revive this wave. Can be summed up in Oprah vs over 9000 penises.
Second wave Anonymous were made up of Anons who did that, but instead of targeting opportunities, they targeted establishments against liberties - most famously of course being battletoads vs Scientology.
Third wave Anonymous is made up of everyone and your Aunt and cares about being a blob of social justice warriors, can can be summed up by people using Guy Fawkes' mask without knowing what is the significance of being a Catholic terrorist trying to blow up a newly founded democracy to install papacy.
The original Anons were a bunch of dicks basically, the only symbolism was one of nihilistic hedonism. Though in pop-culture the V for vendetta mask has become associated with protest against an overbearing government.
There is no real 'sign here for Anonymoose' sort of deal.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 23, 2013, 06:22:07 am
Also:
Quote from: KCNA's article from the 19th of June
Ministry of People's Security Vows to Punish Defectors Keen on Escalating Confrontation
Pyongyang, June 19 (KCNA) -- The Ministry of People's Security of the DPRK issued the following special statement Wednesday:
The DPRK, a country dignified with independence and powerful with Songun, is enjoying the greatest dignity with a bright prospect of socialism of Juche.
The world is looking enviously at the army and people of the DPRK dashing ahead toward the final victory in sight on the horizon at the "Masikryong Speed". Meanwhile, the moves to isolate and stifle the DPRK on the part of the dishonest and hostile forces have faced bankruptcy.
A handful of human scum are moving desperately to deter this progress.
Park Geun Hye and other present puppet authorities of south Korea are openly putting to the fore human scum belonging to the organizations of vicious defectors from the north, painting them as "experts in north Korean issue" and instigating stepped-up criticism.
On June 18, south Korea fed Yonhap News and The Washington Post with articles contributed by defectors saying that copies of book "My Struggle" authored by Hitler were presented to officials in the DPRK as gifts and campaign is now under way to learn from the experiences gained in rebuilding the "Third Empire" that existed in Germany after the First World War.
They even committed the thrice-cursed crime of belittling the matchless great personality of the leader of the DPRK reflected in his loving care for the future generations.
The army and people of the DPRK regard it as shame to make mention of defectors from the north, a group of wild dogs in human form.
The group of human scum marginalized in the bright world has become the main player in the confrontation farce under the patronage of the south Korean puppet group and brigandish U.S. imperialists. They even slandered and insulted the dignity and the social system of the DPRK, an act which can neither be overlooked nor tolerated.
By origin, defectors are human scum who were deserted even by home folks and kinsmen being branded as elements subject to legal punishment in clean society in the DPRK for their crimes of murder, robbery, pilferage, embezzlement of state properties and corruption.
South Koreans also know this.
But the south Korean authorities try to escalate confrontation with the DPRK by using them and the U.S. seeks to overthrow the social system in the DPRK in reliance on them. This proves the poor plight of the Park Geun Hye regime and the U.S. politics.
It is none other than the present puppet authorities of south Korea which seek to fan up confrontation wind despite their loud-mouthed ballad for "confidence" and "dialogue". And it is the U.S. which moves overtly and covertly to topple the social system in the DPRK despite its stereo-typed call for peace and security on the Korean Peninsula.
No matter how desperately the puppet group of south Korea may try being gripped in extreme uneasiness and horror, they can never prolong their dirty remaining days. The U.S., which tries to attain its aggression aim in reliance on the group, is bound to face bankruptcy in its hostile policy toward the DPRK.
The National Defence Commission of the DPRK on June 16 warned that all the future developments depend on the U.S. responsible option.
The army and people of the DPRK are strongly calling for punishing those human scum as early as possible as they are going hysteric as servants escalating confrontation with fellow countrymen, far from trying to redress their crime-woven past with death.
There are daily requests from home folks and kinsmen of those defectors for letting them kill human scum with their own hands.
The Ministry of People's Security of the DPRK, reflecting the grudge of all its service personnel and people, is determined to take substantial measures to physically remove despicable human scum who are committing treasons at the instigation of the south Korean puppet authorities and the gangster-like U.S.
Sordid human scum will never be able to look up to the sky nor be able to find an inch of land to be buried after their death.
The U.S. and the south Korean authorities and wicked conservative media resorting to smear campaign against the DPRK in reliance on them will be made to meet merciless punishment of justice.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 23, 2013, 07:39:57 am
For fucks sakes, what the hell Kim.QuoteThere are daily requests from home folks and kinsmen of those defectors for letting them kill human scum with their own hands.
Post by: jimboo on June 23, 2013, 08:06:22 am
In my opinion, the Anonymous didn't manage to break into North Korean intranet. The fact that their screenshots of the Kwangmyong network have been on the South Korean internet since 2005 (http://www.nknews.org/2013/06/anonymous-claims-secret-north-korean-military-documents/) suggests that they are simply bluffing.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is Latin for "Actually, it's most likely a coincidence and shouldn't be used as justification to draw inference." :)
Post by: Owlbread on June 23, 2013, 08:39:54 am
Therefore, A caused B.
Fallacious indeed.
Post by: jimboo on June 23, 2013, 08:45:24 am
In my opinion, (clip).
Still, I do really like your avatar. :)
Post by: IronyOwl on June 23, 2013, 04:09:48 pm
In more sober news, further crackdowns on defectors or possible defectors doesn't sound good.
Post by: MaximumZero on June 24, 2013, 04:08:44 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 24, 2013, 04:13:40 pm
I'd really like to meet whoever writes their propaganda. The abuse of the phrase "human scum" alone warrants a punch in the face, let alone the propaganda itself.
best korea is so glorious, the unbiased news articles write themselves
Post by: MaximumZero on June 24, 2013, 04:15:17 pm
Then my mission is clear. Punch North Korean news itself.I'd really like to meet whoever writes their propaganda. The abuse of the phrase "human scum" alone warrants a punch in the face, let alone the propaganda itself.
best korea is so glorious, the unbiased news articles write themselves
Post by: Xantalos on June 24, 2013, 04:20:56 pm
I'd really like to meet whoever writes their propaganda. The abuse of the phrase "human scum" alone warrants a punch in the face, let alone the propaganda itself.That's the aliens.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 24, 2013, 05:40:12 pm
The Soviets had that problem too. Most of their English language publications were full of archaisms. I've seen some of my dad's English textbooks, which were printed in the late 1970s and feature lexicon and grammar from the 1930s or the 1940s. (for example, one of the texts was titled "A walk about London")
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 24, 2013, 05:42:08 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 24, 2013, 06:00:04 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on June 24, 2013, 07:05:15 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 24, 2013, 07:23:29 pm
My dad told me that his school sent their senior classes and their teachers on a tourist trip to Great Britain once. It turned out to be a giant embarrassment for the teachers: all the people they've met in Britain laughed at them every time they tried to talk in English.Well that doesn't sound very British. We've especially got protocols for this kinda stuff from the large amount of Frenchies too embarrassed to speak English in case they speak it poorly. And to fix that, the British do the same thing with French. OI YEAH TU JAIME LE FROMAGE M8
Post by: IronyOwl on June 24, 2013, 07:45:49 pm
Anyone still think we shouldn't just bum rush NK and get it over with?I'll admit it's a more tempting option than any other unpleasant place I can think of, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a horrifying mess with a lot of unpleasant connotations regarding sovereignty and so on.
Actually, I think I'd just quote Sun Tzu and say that without a coherent, agreed-upon plan for just how that'd go down, post-Kim era especially, it remains a horrible, horrible idea.
Post by: Devling on June 24, 2013, 07:49:31 pm
Is Sun Tzu a highlander?
Post by: misko27 on June 24, 2013, 07:56:29 pm
Post by: Morrigi on June 24, 2013, 08:59:39 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on June 24, 2013, 09:05:35 pm
We need to put something with the power of a MOAB onto a missile, then launch a few hundred of them into Pyongyang. Problem solved.There would be a...large number of innocent civilians in the way. It's not their fault that their leadership is insane/horrible/both.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 24, 2013, 09:07:01 pm
Post by: ggamer on June 24, 2013, 09:12:37 pm
We need to put something with the power of a MOAB onto a missile, then launch a few hundred of them into Pyongyang. Problem solved.
Short answer: to suggest such a thing requires ignorance on a multi-national scale, not to mention ignorance of how the spread of radiation works. Play Shadow President and nuke a country to get an idea of the effects of attacks like that.
Answering joke propositions completely seriously? yes please!
Then my mission is clear. Punch North Korean news itself.I'd really like to meet whoever writes their propaganda. The abuse of the phrase "human scum" alone warrants a punch in the face, let alone the propaganda itself.
best korea is so glorious, the unbiased news articles write themselves
MZ has face-punched all the people he can. Now he moves on to ideas.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 24, 2013, 09:18:15 pm
The MOAB is not a nuclear weapon.We need to put something with the power of a MOAB onto a missile, then launch a few hundred of them into Pyongyang. Problem solved.
Short answer: to suggest such a thing requires ignorance on a multi-national scale, not to mention ignorance of how the spread of radiation works. Play Shadow President and nuke a country to get an idea of the effects of attacks like that.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 24, 2013, 09:19:55 pm
Though if we did nuke North Korea the fallout would be blown into China. Probably not the best thing for our diplomatic relations.The MOAB is not a nuclear weapon.We need to put something with the power of a MOAB onto a missile, then launch a few hundred of them into Pyongyang. Problem solved.
Short answer: to suggest such a thing requires ignorance on a multi-national scale, not to mention ignorance of how the spread of radiation works. Play Shadow President and nuke a country to get an idea of the effects of attacks like that.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 24, 2013, 09:35:20 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 24, 2013, 10:00:37 pm
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 12:18:52 am
Put them in office.
Have them give the order to launch thinking they were delivering food.
In all actuality though i don't think the MOAB was designed to be used in an urban area, to me it seems more of an intimidation type thing. "look what we can do without launching our nukes. Do you really want to fight us?"
Post by: MaximumZero on June 25, 2013, 12:49:17 am
Find the dumbest person in the states.A) Ethical problem of causing someone to become a mass-murderer because of misrepresentation. B) Civilian casualties. Large quantities of them.
Put them in office.
Have them give the order to launch thinking they were delivering food.
In all actuality though i don't think the MOAB was designed to be used in an urban area, to me it seems more of an intimidation type thing. "look what we can do without launching our nukes. Do you really want to fight us?"
Missiles are not the answer, m'kay?
I still want my cage match with Eun. I defeated their potato and everything!
Post by: Devling on June 25, 2013, 12:58:23 am
Find the dumbest person in the states.Wouldn't the second part involve a bloody coup of some sort?
Put them in office.
Have them give the order to launch thinking they were delivering food.
In all actuality though i don't think the MOAB was designed to be used in an urban area, to me it seems more of an intimidation type thing. "look what we can do without launching our nukes. Do you really want to fight us?"
Post by: hops on June 25, 2013, 02:43:11 am
The people will probably think the grey blot in the sky is Kim Il Sung watching them from a UFO or something.
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 02:57:04 am
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2013, 03:31:01 am
Why would you even need to nuke NK? We could just find a way to spy in North Korea with stealth planes and just pinpoint Kim Jong-Un and missile his ass.Then what? It's not like Glorious Leader's life force is what's personally keeping the Freedom Doves caged or anything.
The people will probably think the grey blot in the sky is Kim Il Sung watching them from a UFO or something.
Plus, still problems with assassinating foreign leadership.
Because any excuse to use a nuke. I think nukes are a horrible idea for this actually. Civilians don't deserve to be killed in a horrible manner just because they're leader is (using scientific terms here) a douche bag.You know, I kind of wonder about this. Certainly he seems like at least a bit of a douchebag, but you have to remember he sort of got plopped into all of this mid-stride. I wonder how much of what's currently going on is him being a dick and how much is him not knowing, caring, and/or maybe even understanding how to stop his government from being a dick.
Actually, even aside from that I'm curious how much he genuinely knows. He's Western-educated, so he can't be that ignorant, but his closest advisers are probably spin doctors, fanatics, and/or yes men.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 25, 2013, 03:35:21 am
Besidesm you can't be certain North Korea doesn't have Advanced warning systems. Probably got some outdated ones from the sovjets or something. (Which is rather scary actually. They were not exactly foolproof.)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 25, 2013, 08:04:29 am
Today is the 25th of June, the anniversary of the start of the Korean War and the day when Anonymous planned to attack North Korea.
They've DDoSed most of North Korean websites, defaced the website of the President of South Korea and the website of some Chinese provincial administration, accidentally DDoSed one of their own websites, and (reportedly) leaked the personal information of American soldiers stationed in South Korea before 2009 and members of South Korean ruling party. (http://www.northkoreatech.org/2013/06/25/hackers-attack-north-south-korean-websites/)
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 25, 2013, 10:05:56 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 25, 2013, 11:07:28 am
What other sources do you have?
NKNews.org - Hacking group attacks South Korean govt. websites (http://www.nknews.org/2013/06/breaking-hacking-group-attacks-south-korean-government-websites/)
Yonhap News:
N. Korean websites targeted by int'l hacking offline (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2013/06/25/28/0401000000AEN20130625005600315F.HTML)
Seoul issues alert as websites of presidential office, gov't agencies under attack (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2013/06/25/15/0301000000AEN20130625005500320F.HTML)
(2nd LD) Presidential Office's website shut down after apparent hacking attack (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2013/06/25/7/0301000000AEN20130625003952315F.HTML)
Post by: Owlbread on June 25, 2013, 03:58:28 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 25, 2013, 05:21:11 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 25, 2013, 07:00:36 pm
Supply lines, people. A starving man can't fight using a gun that ran out of bullets days ago and badly needs to be cleaned.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2013, 07:39:17 pm
Well there are Thermobarbic's would those be a more moral choice? If north Korea did something stupid and attacked some one a nuclear bomb would be their worst worry.Why would a nuclear bomb be any worse than any other kind of bomb or assault?
Also, define "their." Kim's? Kim's top advisers? NK's government? The NK people? Anyone living in Pyongyang?
Their worst worry would be rampant famine and disease as their fragile logistical structure completely collapses in the first week of the war.And yeah, this. They might be able to obliterate Seoul, but their ability to "attack" pretty much anyplace else is borderline nonexistent.
Supply lines, people. A starving man can't fight using a gun that ran out of bullets days ago and badly needs to be cleaned.
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 07:50:13 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 25, 2013, 08:04:30 pm
All we can do is increase speed with which it comes, and minimize the damage North Korea does till then. Bombing them doesn't do that.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 25, 2013, 08:08:48 pm
Well there are Thermobarbic's would those be a more moral choice? If north Korea did something stupid and attacked some one a nuclear bomb would be their worst worry.Why would a nuclear bomb be any worse than any other kind of bomb or assault?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
North Korea's chance of winning a war against the South is approaches 0 the likelier it is for war to occur. If they ever actually invaded they have no chance. Hell, the US would need to help North Korea for them to win. Their chances of surviving indefinitely as is is slim to none.The thing about nations that go total war is that they don't need to be able to defeat any major military superpowers to stave off their own defeat. Inflicting a dear cost to the attacker is sufficient.
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 08:09:59 pm
North Korea's chance of winning a war against the South is approaches 0 the likelier it is for war to occur. If they ever actually invaded they have no chance. Hell, the US would need to help North Korea for them to win. Their chances of surviving indefinitely as is is slim to none.That's what i meant. They won't be able to win but i don't know if they're leadership would know or care about that. I'm no expert in this type of thing but i think we should deal with their artillery if we go to war, since that would basically de-claw them.
All we can do is increase speed with which it comes, and minimize the damage North Korea does till then. Bombing them doesn't do that.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 25, 2013, 08:14:34 pm
Post by: tahujdt on June 25, 2013, 08:17:01 pm
The EMP blast depends significantly on the altitude of the detonation, IIRC.Hmm, what floor does Glorious Leader live on again?
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 08:22:46 pm
Glorious leader lives among the people healing the blind and protecting the nation....Third floor.The EMP blast depends significantly on the altitude of the detonation, IIRC.Hmm, what floor does Glorious Leader live on again?
Post by: misko27 on June 25, 2013, 08:34:35 pm
The EMP blast depends significantly on the altitude of the detonation, IIRC.Yes. In fact, it ranges from "The enitirety of the North American Continent" to 10 miles.
It depends entirely on a huge number of factors, some completely out of our control (Such as the magnetic field, which amplifies shit in weird ways. It's Proven a EMP on the US would cause alot of damage beyond it's borders, especially in Canada). However, is mostly a either large range or short range thing, a Ground burst would have a range of 10 miles, but a low altitude one is almost unpredictable. And, EMP is not a "End of days Scenario", nor a "Shrug it off" sort of thing. We don't know. Last time a EMP occurred over a Civilian territory, It affected 50s or 60s era Hawaii, and shut off street lamps. We don't know what it would and won't affect now. It might not even bother most of North Korea, after all they aren't very advanced. On the other hand, non of their Computers are protected.
It is too unpredictable to pretend we can do it surgically. Most EMP studies were based around the idea of a Entire massive country, the US, the USSR, the PRC, not at all about limiting the effects. All I know about that is the more shields a bomb has (and therefore, the stronger the bomb needs to be, yield has little to do with EMP) the weaker the Pulse.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 25, 2013, 08:41:33 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 25, 2013, 08:46:05 pm
That's what i meant. They won't be able to win but i don't know if they're leadership would know or care about that. I'm no expert in this type of thing but i think we should deal with their artillery if we go to war, since that would basically de-claw them.They've got around over 7000 various artillery pieces, some effective, others museum pieces. Destroying them all would be quite a military feat, which most things short of a cloud of UAV's that blot out the sun wouldn't be able to destroy all that easily. Couple that with their few thousand mortars and their dozen and a half thousand man portable rocket launchers, they could get some serious hurt done if they didn't care about casualties.
It all really comes down to how many of the 9 million soldiers would be willing to die for their country against the evil invaders. That, and the 180,000 N.Korean special forces, who are basically 5 ft Spetsnaz who inject themselves with pure Stalin everyday.
The EMP blast depends significantly on the altitude of the detonation, IIRC.A 100kt warhead or stronger will create an EMP that affects pretty much everything on a tangent to the explosion height. The Americans use an arsenal in the range of 100-500kt, usually with multiple warheads. China has an SLBM which is capable of holding a single 1000kt warhead. A lot of people have nukes and a lot of people can be hurt by them, no matter where they're used in the world.
Nuclear bombs have a whole lot more indiscriminate destructive power and long lasting side effects that bombing and conventional warfare. One of the suggested use of tactical nukes is 'salting the ground' after all.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 25, 2013, 08:48:10 pm
Destroying them all would be quite a military feat, which most things short of a cloud of UAV's that blot out the sun wouldn't be able to destroy all that easily. Couple that with their few thousand mortars and their dozen and a half thousand man portable rocket launchers, they could get some serious hurt done if they didn't care about casualties.
It all really comes down to how many of the 9 million soldiers would be willing to die for their country against the evil invaders. That, and the 180,000 N.Korean special forces, who are basically 5 ft Spetsnaz who inject themselves with pure Stalin everyday.
Good points. We could "kill" any army drone today with shit from radio shack.
As for the last part... The imagery...
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2013, 08:53:02 pm
What goes into the creation of pure Stalin? When you say inject do you mean with a syringe? Actually i don't want to know.Destroying them all would be quite a military feat, which most things short of a cloud of UAV's that blot out the sun wouldn't be able to destroy all that easily. Couple that with their few thousand mortars and their dozen and a half thousand man portable rocket launchers, they could get some serious hurt done if they didn't care about casualties.
It all really comes down to how many of the 9 million soldiers would be willing to die for their country against the evil invaders. That, and the 180,000 N.Korean special forces, who are basically 5 ft Spetsnaz who inject themselves with pure Stalin everyday.
Good points. We could "kill" any army drone today with shit from radio shack.
As for the last part... The imagery...
Post by: PanH on June 25, 2013, 09:11:47 pm
Injecting it in super soldiers since 1953.
Fighting drones piloted by aliens since 2013.
Post by: Just Some Guy on June 25, 2013, 09:27:00 pm
Post by: Mech#4 on June 26, 2013, 12:13:39 am
Best Korea : Cloning Stalin(s) since 1952.
Injecting it in super soldiers since 1953.
Fighting drones piloted by aliens since 2013.
"Research Log: Date 26/06/53: We have managed to synthesise the raw essence of Stalin's moustache into liquid form. We have high hopes that this will finally give our troops the necessary edge in any coming conflicts. What follows is a recording from one of our more... successful tests.
:: Hey! What's this on my face! It's going everywhere! AH, Мені потрібно пити! Untie me, help! Наше дело правое — победа будет за нами! Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди, но и своей вершка ни отдадим!::
Scientist: Quick nurse, Sedate him! Bah, too much. We shall have to try smaller doses. End the recording."
Post by: Devling on June 26, 2013, 12:14:55 am
Post by: BullDog on June 26, 2013, 12:23:43 am
Reminds me of a forum game on this forum that finished today.Best Korea : Cloning Stalin(s) since 1952.
Injecting it in super soldiers since 1953.
Fighting drones piloted by aliens since 2013.
"Research Log: Date 26/06/53: We have managed to synthesise the raw essence of Stalin's moustache into liquid form. We have high hopes that this will finally give our troops the necessary edge in any coming conflicts. What follows is a recording from one of our more... successful tests.
:: Hey! What's this on my face! It's going everywhere! AH, Мені потрібно пити! Untie me, help! Наше дело правое — победа будет за нами! Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди, но и своей вершка ни отдадим!::
Scientist: Quick nurse, Sedate him! Bah, too much. We shall have to try smaller doses. End the recording."
Also, post to watch.
Post by: Steelmagic on June 26, 2013, 12:30:52 am
Raw essence of Stalin's moustache? My god NK you cannot CONTROL the moustache you fools!Best Korea : Cloning Stalin(s) since 1952.
Injecting it in super soldiers since 1953.
Fighting drones piloted by aliens since 2013.
"Research Log: Date 26/06/53: We have managed to synthesise the raw essence of Stalin's moustache into liquid form. We have high hopes that this will finally give our troops the necessary edge in any coming conflicts. What follows is a recording from one of our more... successful tests.
:: Hey! What's this on my face! It's going everywhere! AH, Мені потрібно пити! Untie me, help! Наше дело правое — победа будет за нами! Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди, но и своей вершка ни отдадим!::
Scientist: Quick nurse, Sedate him! Bah, too much. We shall have to try smaller doses. End the recording."
Post by: Owlbread on June 26, 2013, 08:40:26 am
"Research Log: Date 26/06/53: We have managed to synthesise the raw essence of Stalin's moustache into liquid form. We have high hopes that this will finally give our troops the necessary edge in any coming conflicts. What follows is a recording from one of our more... successful tests.
:: Hey! What's this on my face! It's going everywhere! AH, Мені потрібно пити! Untie me, help! Наше дело правое — победа будет за нами! Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди, но и своей вершка ни отдадим!::
Scientist: Quick nurse, Sedate him! Bah, too much. We shall have to try smaller doses. End the recording."
What's going on with those i's? It looks Ukrainian like that.
Post by: Tsuchigumo550 on June 26, 2013, 08:45:20 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 26, 2013, 10:38:11 am
Post by: Mech#4 on June 26, 2013, 12:56:05 pm
"Research Log: Date 26/06/53: We have managed to synthesise the raw essence of Stalin's moustache into liquid form. We have high hopes that this will finally give our troops the necessary edge in any coming conflicts. What follows is a recording from one of our more... successful tests.
:: Hey! What's this on my face! It's going everywhere! AH, Мені потрібно пити! Untie me, help! Наше дело правое — победа будет за нами! Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди, но и своей вершка ни отдадим!::
Scientist: Quick nurse, Sedate him! Bah, too much. We shall have to try smaller doses. End the recording."
What's going on with those i's? It looks Ukrainian like that.
I believe that part is Ukrainian. I did a quick translate job since I don't know Russian. The other two are quotes I found.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 26, 2013, 01:01:54 pm
Мені потрібно пити!Yes, it is Ukrainian.
Post by: jimboo on June 26, 2013, 02:13:59 pm
(clip)
Supply lines, people. A starving man can't fight using a gun that ran out of bullets days ago and badly needs to be cleaned.
An AK-47 never really needs to be cleaned which is why it's been the most popular assault rifle in the world since ... 1947. I concede the points about bullets and owlbread, tho'. :)
GGI -- yours was one of the best avatars on Bay12; why'd you change it? Just for variety?
Post by: Steelmagic on June 26, 2013, 03:19:38 pm
The AK-47: Because you're too damn lazy to maintain a rifle.(clip)
Supply lines, people. A starving man can't fight using a gun that ran out of bullets days ago and badly needs to be cleaned.
An AK-47 never really needs to be cleaned which is why it's been the most popular assault rifle in the world since ... 1947. I concede the points about bullets and owlbread, tho'. :)
GGI -- yours was one of the best avatars on Bay12; why'd you change it? Just for variety?
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 26, 2013, 05:14:31 pm
Besides AK-47 (which has always been called AK in the Soviet and Russian armies) there are also AKM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKM) (the improved version of the original AK, developed in the 1950s), AK-74 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74) (revamped and improved AKM, using 5.45×39mm cartridges), AKS-74U (the carbine version of AK-74), AK-101 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-101) (modified export variant of AK-74 using NATO 5.56×45mm rounds), AK-107 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-107) (modified derivative of AK-101) and the newest AK-12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12) (still in development).
GGI -- yours was one of the best avatars on Bay12; why'd you change it? Just for variety?What avatar are you talking about: "Stalin in headphones", "Rainbow Stalin" or the ones I had before?
Note: I use rotating avatar service from signavatar.com
Post by: Tellemurius on June 26, 2013, 05:24:09 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2013, 05:34:36 pm
AK-47s are robust, but not invincible. I'm sure there's the potential for problems, especially with the consideration that of all the badly maintained terrible AK clones, Best Korea's Type 58s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_58_assault_rifle) are probably the worst maintained and the worst quality.(clip)
Supply lines, people. A starving man can't fight using a gun that ran out of bullets days ago and badly needs to be cleaned.
An AK-47 never really needs to be cleaned which is why it's been the most popular assault rifle in the world since ... 1947. I concede the points about bullets and owlbread, tho'. :)
I'd say Kalashnikov is spinning in his grave, but a quick check reveals that he is somehow not dead.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 26, 2013, 05:53:10 pm
I'd say Kalashnikov is spinning in his grave, but a quick check reveals that he is somehow not dead.He's currently undergoing treatment in a hospital. (http://rt.com/news/kalashnikov-plane-moscow-clinic-127/)
Despite the old age, he has never quit working at the Izmash factory up until recently. I hope he'll recover.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2013, 05:54:49 pm
Given that he's 93 and looks like he's 65, I certainly wouldn't count him out just yet.I'd say Kalashnikov is spinning in his grave, but a quick check reveals that he is somehow not dead.He's currently undergoing treatment in a hospital. (http://rt.com/news/kalashnikov-plane-moscow-clinic-127/)
Despite the old age, he has never quit working at the Izmash factory up until recently. I hope he'll recover.
Post by: jimboo on June 26, 2013, 06:25:02 pm
Am I the only one around here who knows that there are a lot of variants of AK assault rifles?Probably not, no.
GGI -- yours was one of the best avatars on Bay12; why'd you change it? Just for variety?What avatar are you talking about: "Stalin in headphones", "Rainbow Stalin" or the ones I had before?
The one you're using now. Again. [edit: headphones, I'm guessing]
Note: I use rotating avatar service from signavatar.com
Cool. Thanks for the tip. A rotating Bastet head might be a bit too Linda Blair-y but still, thanks.
Post by: Just Some Guy on June 27, 2013, 08:48:53 am
Post by: Owlbread on June 27, 2013, 08:51:51 am
If you read those articles carefully they also show that the North Korean sphere of influence over the defectors has grown quite substantially, given that Laos has repatriated nine former wandering swallows that managed to escape there. Southeast Asia was traditionally the safest route for defectors to go through besides Mongolia, now they may need to think quite carefully.
Post by: Fniff on June 27, 2013, 09:12:56 am
Post by: Skyrunner on June 27, 2013, 10:06:25 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 27, 2013, 10:45:20 am
In North Korea they call those homeless children "wandering swallows". You can watch them on youtube dying of starvation, curled up in agony.
If you read those articles carefully they also show that the North Korean sphere of influence over the defectors has grown quite substantially, given that Laos has repatriated nine former wandering swallows that managed to escape there. Southeast Asia was traditionally the safest route for defectors to go through besides Mongolia, now they may need to think quite carefully.
I'm certain you do a hell of a lot for them, or those like them. Change the thread title, it can be jokey if you like, mock me if you like, but bloody change it.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 27, 2013, 10:45:44 am
In North Korea they call those homeless children "wandering swallows". You can watch them on youtube dying of starvation, curled up in agony.You mean this footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9EBaazVNE)?
While looking through Andrei Lankov's blog, I've found an interesting report about the establishment of agreements between China and North Korea concerning repatriation of refugees. (http://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/NKIDP_eDossier_11_Explaining_North_Korean_Migration_to_China.pdf).
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 27, 2013, 10:48:55 am
How on Earth do they survive Winter?In North Korea they call those homeless children "wandering swallows". You can watch them on youtube dying of starvation, curled up in agony.You mean this footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9EBaazVNE)?
...I guess they don't.
Post by: Owlbread on June 27, 2013, 10:58:38 am
You mean this footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9EBaazVNE)?
Yeah, that's one of them, though I distinctly remember seeing one of shabbily dressed kids walking around with no visible parents and a kid lying on the ground bent double, his face all twisted up. Nobody giving a damn. During the famine people just used to step over corpses because they were so traumatised.
I have found one version of the video, though someone put an irritating soundtrack to it and gave it a really stupid title, my advice is to just mute it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOM-iLDa-BQ
I believe it was taken by a group of activists within the country I heard about in a documentary. They smuggled a video camera into the DPRK and put it in a brown bag with a hole in it. They would then carry it around, filming what they saw. They'd smuggle the videos across the border.
Sigh. Must be the nukes. I don't think Laos was an especially powerful nation, so I'd imagine it didn't want to take SK's side justin case NK goes crazy.
I think Laos and Cambodia traditionally had quite good relationships with North Korea anyway. Cambodia's king used to get on very well with Kim Il-sung. There's quite a few South Korean Christian groups operating in Cambodia nowadays helping out defectors.
A lot of the videos that used to be on youtube have been taken down. I had to find the video of the starving girl on liveleak:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643&comments=1
Post by: Tellemurius on June 27, 2013, 12:42:10 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 27, 2013, 02:59:42 pm
Laos is xenophobic, they don't want outsiders in their country, they have their own problems with cleansing out the Hmong from the mountains and really don't give a damn to anyone else tell their parent country to take them back.
The thing is though the Laotian border guards used to be quite open to bribery or didn't really care. It seems that is no longer the case.
Post by: jimboo on June 27, 2013, 03:34:29 pm
Laos is xenophobic, they don't want outsiders in their country, they have their own problems with cleansing out the Hmong from the mountains and really don't give a damn to anyone else tell their parent country to take them back.
?
Have you ever been there? I always found it to be a very friendly place. The capital, Vientiane (pronounced wan-chun, like the ‘80s rock band) is like stepping back in time to a French colony. There are a couple of very good Korean restaurants there and I never got a sense of xenophobia.
Post by: Tellemurius on June 27, 2013, 03:44:02 pm
My mother is a refugee from the country, her family escaped in the 80's from the government :\Laos is xenophobic, they don't want outsiders in their country, they have their own problems with cleansing out the Hmong from the mountains and really don't give a damn to anyone else tell their parent country to take them back.
?
Have you ever been there? I always found it to be a very friendly place. The capital, Vientiane (pronounced wan-chun, like the ‘80s rock band) is like stepping back in time to a French colony. There are a couple of very good Korean restaurants there and I never got a sense of xenophobia.
Post by: jimboo on June 27, 2013, 04:09:29 pm
My mother is a refugee from the country, her family escaped in the 80's from the government :\
If your mother is of Hmong ancestry, she will naturally have a different perspective. The Hmong are – well, it’s much like PROC mainland China; almost everyone there now is Han Chinese but only a few generations ago, the Han were only one of 60 or so different ethnicities. Most Americans don’t know that if you go over that way, almost no one has heard of “The Vietnam War.” But everyone knows the Indo-China Conflict and The Second Indo-China Conflict. The first one started against the French, was interrupted for a few years by Japanese occupation and then ended in 1954 with the defeat of the French. In Thailand, they celebrated their defeat of French colonial attempts by renaming the Kingdom from Siam to Thailand, which in their language means “land of the free.” Free of the French. All official distances in Thailand are marked from the Victory Monument which celebrates the defeat of the French invaders. But this thread was/is sometimes about Koreans. Even the French are back in Laos now as ex-pats and seemingly very welcome. My favorite bistro is one next to the Plaza in Vientiane run by a French woman named Peannut who was insistent on telling me, “It’s pronounced Pee-NUH, not Pee-NUH.” I had to ask,
“Have you by chance seen the movie Pink Panther with Peter Sellers?”
“No.”
“Then, never mind.”
:)
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 27, 2013, 04:25:08 pm
As the next best thing threadwise (and to prevent threadsplosion by creating a dedicated topic), and since we've brought up the prevalence of Han Chinese, can anyone tell me about the situation in Tibet? I thought there was a possibly successful intent to do much the same thing there, and to be honest I'd like a thorough discussion of china. A cursory search is a little inundated, so if anyone has any links handy I'd appreciate it.
Post by: jimboo on June 27, 2013, 04:49:02 pm
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Post by: Tellemurius on June 27, 2013, 04:50:49 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 27, 2013, 04:52:21 pm
Just start a new thread on China. This one is about that wasscally Lil' Kim.
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Along with Uyghurstan, Inner Mongolia and numerous other regions.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 27, 2013, 04:53:12 pm
Just start a new thread on China. This one is about that wasscally Lil' Kim.
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Not that you're necessarily wrong (i don't know enough to judge, and it's sounds accurate) , this is why i didn't make a thread. A baying mass will descend and I'll be lucky if the thread lasts for 20 minutes. You don't have to explain, but please provide me with a link.
Post by: jimboo on June 27, 2013, 05:32:54 pm
Not that you're necessarily wrong (i don't know enough to judge, and it's sounds accurate) , this is why i didn't make a thread. A baying mass will descend and I'll be lucky if the thread lasts for 20 minutes. You don't have to explain, but please provide me with a link.
Um … OK, but – a link to what? The railhead now established between the Provinces linking a half-billion people directly to Lhasa? The “repatriation” monetary and other incentives to Han families relocating to the Plateau? The ***damn tourist hotels now facing the Potala Palace? Fly the friendly skies of Google Earth.
Not meaning to sound snarky but, I don’t know what you’re looking for and that’s the purpose of Google. You might start with this one:
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/outlook/reviews/2640-chinas-hidden-cultural-genocide-in-tibet-crimes-against-humanity -- which is Chinese. I was going to direct you to the great Snow Lion website, but it seems they’ve been taken over by the Shamballa Publishing Group. Too bad; they had a fantastic catalog.
And now, back to the Lil' Kim show!
Post by: Sheb on June 28, 2013, 05:24:07 am
Anyway, there has been a lot of speculation among China watchers recently that China may approach a new Tibetan strategy, following the publication of an article by an academic in an official newspaper. Hu Jintao, the former Chinese president was General Secretary of the Tibetan Communist Party before taking on the top job and was known for his heavy-handed approach.
Now, with the new leadership in Beijing, there seems to be a movement toward negociating with the Dalai-Lama before he dies, with some people calling for Beijing and the Dalai-Lama to reach a deal on its next reincarnation (To avoid having two Dalai-Lama, an official one and one that Tibetan follow).
Things may yet get better.
Post by: Owlbread on June 28, 2013, 08:08:37 am
Post by: Xantalos on June 28, 2013, 01:59:06 pm
I look forward to seeing what Chinese puppet is brought forth to succeed the Dalai-Lama.Totally legitimate, by the way. They absolutely have authority over a religion they're trying to suppress.
[/sarcasm]
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 28, 2013, 02:08:29 pm
Just start a new thread on China. This one is about that wasscally Lil' Kim.
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Not that you're necessarily wrong (i don't know enough to judge, and it's sounds accurate) , this is why i didn't make a thread. A baying mass will descend and I'll be lucky if the thread lasts for 20 minutes. You don't have to explain, but please provide me with a link.
Seriously, stop derailing existing threads to talk about your pet issues. If you want to talk about something, start a thread for it instead of intentionally derailing. Yes, it means you will have to put a little more work into your posts instead of asking easy to answer questions or complaining about how other people aren't doing things right enough for you, but hey! At least you won't have to complain about other people's titles that way, right?
Post by: Owlbread on June 28, 2013, 04:31:58 pm
Totally legitimate, by the way. They absolutely have authority over a religion they're trying to suppress.
[/sarcasm]
They certainly have authority over Islam.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 28, 2013, 04:42:36 pm
Just start a new thread on China. This one is about that wasscally Lil' Kim.
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Not that you're necessarily wrong (i don't know enough to judge, and it's sounds accurate) , this is why i didn't make a thread. A baying mass will descend and I'll be lucky if the thread lasts for 20 minutes. You don't have to explain, but please provide me with a link.
Seriously, stop derailing existing threads to talk about your pet issues. If you want to talk about something, start a thread for it instead of intentionally derailing. Yes, it means you will have to put a little more work into your posts instead of asking easy to answer questions or complaining about how other people aren't doing things right enough for you, but hey! At least you won't have to complain about other people's titles that way, right?
I've read some of the earlier threads on China, and they quickly descended into arguments where questions where wholly ignored. A derail is a better bet. Incidentally, if this was triggered by the CISgendered thread, you mentioned social justice. I wasn't aware this was a moniker. Also, the thread title is not a good title and i will stand by that.
I would also like to add, when i made threads for each of my distinct questions, i was told to "stop spamming". I think you where one of them.
More editing! As for the simple questions, yes they are. I neither have the knowledge base or the time to research the intricacies of each, particularly with the degree of filtering I'd need to do to find reliable sources in most cases. You are a shortcut, and for now that's a start. If we take the Australasian politics thread, or the American politics thread, it tend to devolve into discussions fairly obvious to someone who's lived in the country, but much less so to myself, and hence questions where googling inundates me with articles that don't answer the specifics of my question and are skewed to boot, are rather directed at you lot. Lastly, I'd like some honesty in some corners of my life, and as such will state my thoughts on these forums when i wish to justify my statements, unpleasing as they may be.
Post by: Kaferian on June 28, 2013, 05:02:12 pm
Please keep this argument in PM, otherwise people will be too busy arguing with you and you will have an even larger chance of your precious questions being ignored. I can't even find any of your questions in all this pettiness.Just start a new thread on China. This one is about that wasscally Lil' Kim.
What's going on in Tibet is, in a word, genocide.
Not that you're necessarily wrong (i don't know enough to judge, and it's sounds accurate) , this is why i didn't make a thread. A baying mass will descend and I'll be lucky if the thread lasts for 20 minutes. You don't have to explain, but please provide me with a link.
Seriously, stop derailing existing threads to talk about your pet issues. If you want to talk about something, start a thread for it instead of intentionally derailing. Yes, it means you will have to put a little more work into your posts instead of asking easy to answer questions or complaining about how other people aren't doing things right enough for you, but hey! At least you won't have to complain about other people's titles that way, right?
I've read some of the earlier threads on China, and they quickly descended into arguments where questions where wholly ignored. A derail is a better bet. Incidentally, if this was triggered by the CISgendered thread, you stuck in social justice. I wasn't aware this was some moniker. Also, the thread title is not a good title and i will stand by that.
I would also like to add, when i made threads for each of my distinct questions, i was told to "stop spamming". I think you were one of them.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 28, 2013, 05:03:28 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 28, 2013, 09:38:06 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 28, 2013, 09:46:20 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on June 28, 2013, 09:47:36 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 28, 2013, 09:52:08 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 28, 2013, 09:57:04 pm
It has long been discussed that there is no official end to the war. It's about as commonly known as the fan death myth. It is irrelevant because there have been no meaningful hostilities, and therefore the war is, by definition, over.WRONG SIR!!!!
Webster's define war as:
Quote
(1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : state of war.
Both Koreas are armed, hostile, conflicting and are declaredly so. You should not use the phrase definition again unless you are SURE!!!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 28, 2013, 09:58:49 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 28, 2013, 10:04:15 pm
It isn't an armed hostile conflict if people aren't fucking dying.Not necessarily! There is nothing in there about dying. They could both be like to really angry guys in a bar with guns being really angry at each other. But extended into 2 countries. That is a war. Websters, is always, right. The definition of conflict, I might remind you, is
Quote
A serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one
Exactly. If you and I both had guns and were willing to shoot each other that would be a mini-war. Think about it.
The Historical Precendent is the Phony war early in WW2.
Post by: Owlbread on June 28, 2013, 10:06:58 pm
It isn't an armed hostile conflict if people aren't fucking dying.
I'm sure the 14 people killed at Yeonpyeong would beg to differ.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 28, 2013, 10:19:43 pm
It isn't an armed hostile conflict if people aren't fucking dying.wot
Let's pin this down.
Armed [ (http://url)x]
Hostile [ (http://url)x]
Conflict [ (http://url)x]
The parallel ticks the boxes.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 28, 2013, 10:20:25 pm
Cease fires are not the end to a war.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2013, 11:18:28 pm
I think people will strenuously disagree with your claim that the war is over.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 28, 2013, 11:19:31 pm
So what's Un been doing lately?
Post by: misko27 on June 28, 2013, 11:22:37 pm
:SQuickly, get a Korean Dictionary and prove me right. For the good of Korea.
I think people will strenuously disagree with your claim that the war is over.
...Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 28, 2013, 11:25:10 pm
Goddamnit. That is a waste of money that should be for food....Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 28, 2013, 11:38:44 pm
:SWars most often involve mass organized violence perpetrated by governmental organizations and their armed forces. The state of conflict that exists between North and South Korea is no more a war than the one that existed between the US and USSR, and while it may have been called the Cold War the Cold part is far more telling as to the reality of the situation.
I think people will strenuously disagree with your claim that the war is over.
Every few years there's a small spurt of violence, but it goes nowhere. That's not enough to be a full-blown war.
The whole "The Korean War never really ended, you know!" thing is technical trivia. Anything that could be called warfare stopped before most people on Bay 12 were even born.
Post by: Devling on June 28, 2013, 11:53:24 pm
Anything that could be called warfare stopped before most people on Bay 12 were even born.What about the Middle East? Tons of war there.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 28, 2013, 11:55:40 pm
You know very well what I mean, Devling.Anything that could be called warfare stopped before most people on Bay 12 were even born.What about the Middle East? Tons of war there.
Post by: Duuvian on June 29, 2013, 12:38:27 am
Goddamnit. That is a waste of money that should be for food....Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
I sort of agree, but my limited experience as a dictator via the Tropica games tells me tourism is actually quite lucrative over time, should you be able to attract
Post by: IronyOwl on June 29, 2013, 12:43:14 am
Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Assuming he's doing it for money and not prestige or something, it's hard to say whether it's a worthwhile investment or a waste of resources or what. Certainly I don't see NK becoming a major tourist hub anytime soon, but that doesn't mean they can't use it to boost revenue.Goddamnit. That is a waste of money that should be for food....Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
I sort of agree, but my limited experience as a dictator via the Tropica games tells me tourism is actually quite lucrative over time, should you be able to attract Yanquis to yourislandpeninsula.
I guess the real question is what they'll do with the money if it does pan out. Hopefully the answer isn't "more statues."
Post by: Xantalos on June 29, 2013, 01:48:26 am
Probably more monuments instead.Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Assuming he's doing it for money and not prestige or something, it's hard to say whether it's a worthwhile investment or a waste of resources or what. Certainly I don't see NK becoming a major tourist hub anytime soon, but that doesn't mean they can't use it to boost revenue.Goddamnit. That is a waste of money that should be for food....Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
I sort of agree, but my limited experience as a dictator via the Tropica games tells me tourism is actually quite lucrative over time, should you be able to attract Yanquis to yourislandpeninsula.
I guess the real question is what they'll do with the money if it does pan out. Hopefully the answer isn't "more statues."
Post by: misko27 on June 29, 2013, 01:58:20 am
Well you know the statue budget is running low...Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Assuming he's doing it for money and not prestige or something, it's hard to say whether it's a worthwhile investment or a waste of resources or what. Certainly I don't see NK becoming a major tourist hub anytime soon, but that doesn't mean they can't use it to boost revenue.Goddamnit. That is a waste of money that should be for food....Building a beach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/wonsan-north-korea-beach-resort_n_3517948.html?utm_hp_ref=world)
So what's Un been doing lately?
I sort of agree, but my limited experience as a dictator via the Tropica games tells me tourism is actually quite lucrative over time, should you be able to attract Yanquis to yourislandpeninsula.
I guess the real question is what they'll do with the money if it does pan out. Hopefully the answer isn't "more statues."
Post by: Sensei on June 29, 2013, 04:49:17 am
It isn't an armed hostile conflict if people aren't fucking dying.Not necessarily! There is nothing in there about dying. They could both be like to really angry guys in a bar with guns being really angry at each other. But extended into 2 countries. That is a war. Websters, is always, right. The definition of conflict, I might remind you, isQuoteA serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one
Quote
Websters, is always, right.
Quote
phoe·nixFuck that shit. We'll spell if Pheonix if we want to.
That said, a state of war exists in that a war was formally started and never declared ended. I'd say that the argument it's an "armed conflict" is pushing it though- everyone knows that "armed conflict" or "hostilities" is just a euphemism for violence (whether or not websters thought to specify that), which isn't really occurring. To extend to the armed-men-arguing-in-a-bar analogy, I'd say it doesn't count as "armed conflict" in the way anyone every used the term "armed conflict" unless at least one of them fired a their weapon, or ideally both. The notion that people have to be fucking dying doesn't hold in the small scale analogy but if two countries have people shooting at eachother and nobody's dying, something weird is going on.
Post by: Another on June 29, 2013, 05:35:27 am
Can we say that a war with an official cease fire in effect is in a paused state and so is not currently in a state of war even if technically the same old war could be resumed at some point in the future?
That in turn would be complicated again by NK declaring their cease of fire void at several occasions.
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 06:40:21 am
Anything that could be called warfare stopped before most people on Bay 12 were even born.
If you have a narrow-minded, white, European or American centric view of the world then sure.
The definition of an armistice is usually: "a temporary cessation of hostilities, by agreement between the belligerents, prior to the negotiation or signing of a peace treaty." No peace treaty has been signed, rather the war has just been paused. It has never actually "ended".
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 29, 2013, 06:45:47 am
Can we say that a war with an official cease fire in effect is in a paused state and so is not currently in a state of war even if technically the same old war could be resumed at some point in the future?Do Japan and Russia have the world's most militarized border?
Have they stopped killing each other?
Have they stopped preparing for more fighting?
Post by: Aseaheru on June 29, 2013, 06:47:34 am
Post by: Osmosis Jones on June 29, 2013, 06:56:03 am
There's no actual bitterness between the two, if the number of Russians at my workplace (https://maps.google.co.jp/maps?q=nims+sengen&ll=36.076817,140.12171&spn=0.009018,0.021136&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=jp&hq=nims&hnear=0x60220cea491e5bb7:0x75202b3a3e36ee5f,Sengen,+Tsukuba,+Ibaraki+Prefecture&cid=0,0,14507328634847810355&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A&brcurrent=3,0x60220c8ce32def8d:0x439f647134372efb,0) is anything to go by.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 29, 2013, 08:19:08 am
Post by: Aseaheru on June 29, 2013, 08:29:00 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 29, 2013, 09:08:18 am
Post by: Blargityblarg on June 29, 2013, 09:11:10 am
IIRC the defenition opf war was more than 1000 death/day for more than 1 year.
I... what? If we go by that, very little short of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium qualifies as war*.
*sort of hyperbole but point stands
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 29, 2013, 09:44:18 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 29, 2013, 09:48:30 am
What in the hell are you talking about? I sincerely hope you are not completely disregarding the context of my statement and acting as if I meant the entire world with that sentence, and not the situation on the Korean DMZ.Anything that could be called warfare stopped before most people on Bay 12 were even born.
If you have a narrow-minded, white, European or American centric view of the world then sure.
Quote
The definition of an armistice is usually: "a temporary cessation of hostilities, by agreement between the belligerents, prior to the negotiation or signing of a peace treaty." No peace treaty has been signed, rather the war has just been paused. It has never actually "ended".Focusing on peace treaties is just arbitrary legalism. While they may coincide with and cause the end of some wars, if the fighting still ends by other means the war is still over.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 29, 2013, 09:56:33 am
Yup, just as a note, I didn't recall correctly. The definition is more than 1000 deaths/ year.IIRC the definition of war was more than 1000 death/day for more than 1 year.
I... what? If we go by that, very little short of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium qualifies as war*.
*sort of hyperbole but point stands
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 29, 2013, 10:05:15 am
Silly MSH, don't you know that arbitrary legalism controls the world and our lives are run by footnotes in unrelated legal contracts?QuoteThe definition of an armistice is usually: "a temporary cessation of hostilities, by agreement between the belligerents, prior to the negotiation or signing of a peace treaty." No peace treaty has been signed, rather the war has just been paused. It has never actually "ended".Focusing on peace treaties is just arbitrary legalism. While they may coincide with and cause the end of some wars, if the fighting still ends by other means the war is still over.
More seriously, I think what's happening is that legally the war isn't over but for all intents and purposes it might as well be.
Post by: Tellemurius on June 29, 2013, 10:25:58 am
Whose definition is that?It might as well be but theres more guns pointing at each other sides than Gaza Strip and Israel.Silly MSH, don't you know that arbitrary legalism controls the world and our lives are run by footnotes in unrelated legal contracts?QuoteThe definition of an armistice is usually: "a temporary cessation of hostilities, by agreement between the belligerents, prior to the negotiation or signing of a peace treaty." No peace treaty has been signed, rather the war has just been paused. It has never actually "ended".Focusing on peace treaties is just arbitrary legalism. While they may coincide with and cause the end of some wars, if the fighting still ends by other means the war is still over.
More seriously, I think what's happening is that legally the war isn't over but for all intents and purposes it might as well be.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 29, 2013, 10:52:00 am
Post by: DarkWolfXV on June 29, 2013, 10:58:29 am
The notion that people have to be fucking dying doesn't hold in the small scale analogy but if two countries have people shooting at eachother and nobody's dying, something weird is going on.If people are firing at eachother and neither side is dying...
It means they have got...
Good body armor
Yeeeeaaahhh.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 29, 2013, 11:02:54 am
Post by: misko27 on June 29, 2013, 11:04:43 am
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 29, 2013, 11:23:02 am
Post by: Bauglir on June 29, 2013, 11:56:58 am
Post by: miauw62 on June 29, 2013, 11:58:53 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 29, 2013, 01:11:28 pm
Are we really arguing over what the word "war" means in a thread about current events? Would it change anybody's understanding of actual events in Korea if this discussion were resolved? Or would it just change how you classify those events?WAR IS FRIENDSHIP
WAR IS LIFE
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 01:15:59 pm
Post by: jimboo on June 29, 2013, 01:30:25 pm
But in Seoul, you can take a tourist bus now right up to the DMZ. No kidding, it's a popular tourist attraction. It's not so large you need binoculars to see the other side or anything. It's actually an interesting place: 50+ years of enforced, unintended wildlife preserve. Just don't look directly at the mirror. :)
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 01:55:22 pm
Good luck getting that visa.
But in Seoul, you can take a tourist bus now right up to the DMZ. No kidding, it's a popular tourist attraction. It's not so large you need binoculars to see the other side or anything. It's actually an interesting place: 50+ years of enforced, unintended wildlife preserve. Just don't look directly at the mirror. :)
I'd love to do both Koreas, though I'd try the North first in case there's any issues with stamps on my passport.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 29, 2013, 02:10:15 pm
Good luck getting that visa.
But in Seoul, you can take a tourist bus now right up to the DMZ. No kidding, it's a popular tourist attraction. It's not so large you need binoculars to see the other side or anything. It's actually an interesting place: 50+ years of enforced, unintended wildlife preserve. Just don't look directly at the mirror. :)
Thanks for mentioning this.
Post by: jimboo on June 29, 2013, 04:27:28 pm
I'd love to do both Koreas, though I'd try the North first in case there's any issues with stamps on my passport.
It was a joke, Owl. But I don’t mean to be presumptuous – are you a Brit? (It’s a great YouTube reference on your Sig.)
Post by: misko27 on June 29, 2013, 05:32:07 pm
Best Korean beach resorts. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10145092/North-Korean-leader-Kim-Jong-un-orders-the-creation-of-nations-first-beach-resort.html)Said this maybe a page or 2 ago.
Post by: Strife26 on June 29, 2013, 06:51:03 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 29, 2013, 08:30:04 pm
As an American citizen, I've never set tread on North Korean, soil, but it'd be a hell of day when I have to.Might not be as exciting as you think. I wish someone would do a (publicly available, since I'm sure this exists somewhere in US military archives) projection of how long NK could stay in fighting shape before total supply collapse and mass routing. It probably wouldn't be very long.
Post by: Cthulufaic on June 29, 2013, 08:47:47 pm
I give ten, fifteen minutes tops. Assuming that we do a full-scale invasion of the island, complete with bombing runs, naval bombardment, paratrooper attacks, etc.As an American citizen, I've never set tread on North Korean, soil, but it'd be a hell of day when I have to.Might not be as exciting as you think. I wish someone would do a (publicly available, since I'm sure this exists somewhere in US military archives) projection of how long NK could stay in fighting shape before total supply collapse and mass routing. It probably wouldn't be very long.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 29, 2013, 08:55:37 pm
It's... not an island. It's the northern half or so of a peninsula.I give ten, fifteen minutes tops. Assuming that we do a full-scale invasion of the island, complete with bombing runs, naval bombardment, paratrooper attacks, etc.As an American citizen, I've never set tread on North Korean, soil, but it'd be a hell of day when I have to.Might not be as exciting as you think. I wish someone would do a (publicly available, since I'm sure this exists somewhere in US military archives) projection of how long NK could stay in fighting shape before total supply collapse and mass routing. It probably wouldn't be very long.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 29, 2013, 09:03:33 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 09:29:56 pm
Might not be as exciting as you think. I wish someone would do a (publicly available, since I'm sure this exists somewhere in US military archives) projection of how long NK could stay in fighting shape before total supply collapse and mass routing. It probably wouldn't be very long.
You've said this before, but what are you basing that on besides the fact that the army is starving, malnourished and poorly equipped? That sure as hell didn't stop guerilla fighters all over the world. I think it'd probably make them even more batshit crazy. This is everything they have been preparing and training for for the last 60 years. Walt Disney crazy, we're talking here.
It was a joke, Owl. But I don’t mean to be presumptuous – are you a Brit? (It’s a great YouTube reference on your Sig.)
Blast, I apologise. But yes, I am indeed a Brit. For now, at least. We will probably find it easier to get into the North than an American or... god forbid... a South Korean.
Post by: Aseaheru on June 29, 2013, 09:31:53 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 09:36:26 pm
I think they may be a teeny bit past walt- levels.
Well, what about Walt's fixation with the Jewish menace and the creation of a pure, white, all-American town to last the ages? Not far off Juche. Juche is actually much more sane.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 29, 2013, 09:45:47 pm
North Korea is not in a position to wage effective guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla fighters are supported by a strong support network amongst the population they are based upon, a decentralized war economy (think Taliban gunsmiths), and/either/or a high position in the black market to make capital with which to buy weapons (once again, Taliban poppy fields and emerald mines).Might not be as exciting as you think. I wish someone would do a (publicly available, since I'm sure this exists somewhere in US military archives) projection of how long NK could stay in fighting shape before total supply collapse and mass routing. It probably wouldn't be very long.You've said this before, but what are you basing that on besides the fact that the army is starving, malnourished and poorly equipped? That sure as hell didn't stop guerilla fighters all over the world. I think it'd probably make them even more batshit crazy. This is everything they have been preparing and training for for the last 60 years. Walt Disney crazy, we're talking here.
North Korea doesn't have this. They'd be a lot more dangerous if they did, but North Korea's military is oriented to dug-in line fighting with mass conscripts supplemented by lots of mid-to-long range artillery. And this would actually be a really good way to defend North Korea except for the supply problem. This manner of fighting has a critical reliance upon regular and substantial resupply, which we know they are incapable of just by looking at their peacetime supply failures.
Quote
Blast, I apologise. But yes, I am indeed a Brit. For now, at least. We will probably find it easier to get into the North than an American or... god forbid... a South Korean.South Koreans can get in under certain contexts, mostly when NK is in a reunifying mood.
Post by: Owlbread on June 29, 2013, 09:53:10 pm
North Korea is not in a position to wage effective guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla fighters are supported by a strong support network amongst the population they are based upon, a decentralized war economy (think Taliban gunsmiths), and/either/or a high position in the black market to make capital with which to buy weapons (once again, Taliban poppy fields and emerald mines).
North Korea doesn't have this. They'd be a lot more dangerous if they did, but North Korea's military is oriented to dug-in line fighting with mass conscripts supplemented by lots of mid-to-long range artillery. And this would actually be a really good way to defend North Korea except for the supply problem. This manner of fighting has a critical reliance upon regular and substantial resupply, which we know they are incapable of just by looking at their peacetime supply failures.
That doesn't mean however that they would just last for about a week then route and you can all have a glass of champagne. I would predict a lengthy war of cutting out and excising North Korean holdouts and fortresses dotted across the country. They wouldn't last as long as the Taliban as you have illustrated, but they would last for a fair bit. I'm thinking of Mali but maybe as long as a year and lots and lots of casualties and brutality.
Quote
South Koreans can get in under certain contexts, mostly when NK is in a reunifying mood.
That is true, I have heard they have a special seaside resort in the South.
Post by: jimboo on June 30, 2013, 02:28:39 am
http://bigthink.com/purpose-inc/michael-malices-dear-reader-the-unauthorized-autobiography-of-kim-jong-il (http://bigthink.com/purpose-inc/michael-malices-dear-reader-the-unauthorized-autobiography-of-kim-jong-il)
“Dear Reader” is a take on the caricature Asian pronunciation of “Dear Leader,” get it?
It is an interesting tale of the situation from someone who’s been there to study it. The blog is a short read.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 30, 2013, 07:05:17 am
I meant to post this some time ago, forgot, so it isn't on the current page, posting link:
http://bigthink.com/purpose-inc/michael-malices-dear-reader-the-unauthorized-autobiography-of-kim-jong-il (http://bigthink.com/purpose-inc/michael-malices-dear-reader-the-unauthorized-autobiography-of-kim-jong-il)
“Dear Reader” is a take on the caricature Asian pronunciation of “Dear Leader,” get it?
It is an interesting tale of the situation from someone who’s been there to study it. The blog is a short read.
Quote
An immigrant from the former Soviet Union, the thirty-six year old with spikey hair, cunning eyes, and a constant mischievous grin has made a name for himself in a number of strange ways. [...] The project was inspired by the totalitarian regime that he and his family escaped in the Soviet Union...
Judging by the age provided in the article, Michael Malice was born in 1977 and emigrated with his family in the 1980s.
The USSR ceased being a totalitarian state in the 1950s, about 20 years before he was born.
Post by: Owlbread on June 30, 2013, 07:50:04 am
Post by: Aseaheru on June 30, 2013, 08:02:21 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Devling on June 30, 2013, 12:51:14 pm
No? I mean, you could argue that everything we do is touched by the government, or that the individual is subordinated to the state, but I think that opposing political and cultural expression are definitely not suppressed.Ramble.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 30, 2013, 02:31:19 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on June 30, 2013, 02:42:00 pm
Everything's a matter of degrees. You're not going to find a definition for an oppressive regime that doesn't apply at least a little to a free and open one unless it's stupidly specific and arbitrary. There's always going to be parallels between cracking down on protestors against government corruption and cracking down on people wearing other people's skins as protest to everyone not worshiping Gal'Gar the Unchanging.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 30, 2013, 02:44:35 pm
SalmonGod could tell you a lot about government efforts upon Occupy Wallstreet, I'm sure.
Everyone's oppressed.
Post by: kaijyuu on June 30, 2013, 09:06:14 pm
Gal'Gar the Unchanging.I have a new patron deity.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 30, 2013, 09:12:55 pm
Now you see, this is exactly what I mean when I say society's morals are being eroded. There was once a time when people were all God-fearing and sacrificed a man a day to keep Quetzacoatl away, but nooooo everyone wants to be an edgy rebel and worship Gal'Gar.Gal'Gar the Unchanging.I have a new patron deity.
Post by: Sirus on June 30, 2013, 09:15:58 pm
Mention not that pretender's name.Now you see, this is exactly what I mean when I say society's morals are being eroded. There was once a time when people were all God-fearing and sacrificed a man a day to keepGal'Gar the Unchanging.I have a new patron deity.QuetzacoatlCritzacoatl away, but nooooo everyone wants to be an edgy rebel and worship Gal'Gar.
Post by: miauw62 on July 01, 2013, 04:42:56 am
Damn my lazyness.Best Korean beach resorts. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10145092/North-Korean-leader-Kim-Jong-un-orders-the-creation-of-nations-first-beach-resort.html)Said this maybe a page or 2 ago.
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 01, 2013, 04:52:46 am
Mention not that pretender's name.Now you see, this is exactly what I mean when I say society's morals are being eroded. There was once a time when people were all God-fearing and sacrificed a man a day to keepGal'Gar the Unchanging.I have a new patron deity.QuetzacoatlCritzacoatl away, but nooooo everyone wants to be an edgy rebel and worship Gal'Gar.
I can do this all day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_APoSfCYwU&list=PLYV7nsI609BUq_y6z89r4ivy-SNLB8j_i&index=13
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 01, 2013, 05:27:50 am
Post by: Fniff on July 01, 2013, 07:52:45 am
Post by: Skyrunner on July 01, 2013, 08:08:07 am
Oh, South Korea. You never change (to embrace good ways).
Post by: Sheb on July 01, 2013, 08:22:55 am
Post by: Skyrunner on July 01, 2013, 09:04:11 am
Post by: Duuvian on July 01, 2013, 09:28:41 am
Actually, NK insisted that their "kukchang"(Officer of State, most closely) is the same level as SK's "jangguan"(=Head of Department), but SK protested that they suspected an OoS was actually a "chaguan"(=Vice-head of Department). It's rather childish imo.
This is the essence of incompetence distilled into word form thanks to South Korea from what I read here.
Post by: Skyrunner on July 01, 2013, 09:39:01 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 01, 2013, 11:39:43 am
To be fair, this is not exactly the first time in history diplomats have been staggeringly petty. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYZ_Affair)Actually, NK insisted that their "kukchang"(Officer of State, most closely) is the same level as SK's "jangguan"(=Head of Department), but SK protested that they suspected an OoS was actually a "chaguan"(=Vice-head of Department). It's rather childish imo.
This is the essence of incompetence distilled into word form thanks to South Korea from what I read here.
Post by: Owlbread on July 09, 2013, 11:40:32 am
Amazing shots, really enlightening. Not sensationalist anti-North Korean stuff like some documentaries, quite sympathetic in some ways. The journalist irritated me at times because he was too naive for my liking (not understanding that he might get his guides in trouble and stuff) but he did a really good job. I was really touched by some of the interactions he had with Mr. Jim, the friendlier guide who was scared of Rammstein but loved Imagine by John Lennon. The girl who spent hours playing Angry Birds on someone's tablet, just enjoying the touch screen. Great documentary.
I've still got a really bad taste in my mouth though because I'm worried about what must have happened to the guides after he put this video up on youtube. The North Korean government is trying to get it taken down.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 09, 2013, 01:53:08 pm
Post by: Owlbread on July 09, 2013, 02:28:20 pm
I don't think it's that possible to make something sensationalist in regards to North Korea. The reality is beyond what most could invent.
I suppose I'm just struggling to find a word to describe some of the more hostile documentaries about the DPRK. Like that one Panorama did where John Sweeney, the BBC reporter, had the gall to walk into a North Korean public library and ask in a really snarky tone "Have you got nineteen eighty-four"? He kept asking the guides really arsey questions and had an attitude that stank. These guys have no regard for their guides/staff and how their necks are always on the line.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on July 09, 2013, 02:46:19 pm
I have found my new favourite North Korea documentary. It's called the "Land of Whispers". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULO3i5Xra0)
Amazing shots, really enlightening. Not sensationalist anti-North Korean stuff like some documentaries, quite sympathetic in some ways. The journalist irritated me at times because he was too naive for my liking (not understanding that he might get his guides in trouble and stuff) but he did a really good job. I was really touched by some of the interactions he had with Mr. Jim, the friendlier guide who was scared of Rammstein but loved Imagine by John Lennon. The girl who spent hours playing Angry Birds on someone's tablet, just enjoying the touch screen. Great documentary.
I've still got a really bad taste in my mouth though because I'm worried about what must have happened to the guides after he put this video up on youtube. The North Korean government is trying to get it taken down.
I just watched this. Very good video.
Post by: Owlbread on July 09, 2013, 02:55:16 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 10, 2013, 11:32:19 am
I'm not sure if the whole "NK has soviet artillery that will fall apart if looked at oddly" thing is going to work now.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RedWarrior0 on July 10, 2013, 11:59:42 pm
But seriously, have you looked at that artillery? No, wait, you haven't because it still hasn't fallen apart.I'm not sure if the whole "NK has soviet artillery that will fall apart if looked at oddly" thing is going to work now.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Morrigi on July 11, 2013, 12:09:21 am
Indeed. Pics or it didn't happen.But seriously, have you looked at that artillery? No, wait, you haven't because it still hasn't fallen apart.I'm not sure if the whole "NK has soviet artillery that will fall apart if looked at oddly" thing is going to work now.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Strife26 on July 11, 2013, 05:26:19 am
Post by: Owlbread on July 11, 2013, 06:35:14 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 11, 2013, 08:59:14 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 11, 2013, 09:32:34 am
Post by: MaximumZero on July 11, 2013, 11:17:28 am
Post by: Jopax on July 11, 2013, 12:27:22 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just needed to post that, pretty sure it's been posted before, still, needed to post it.
Bye now.
*shuffles out of the thread*
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 11, 2013, 12:46:21 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on July 11, 2013, 12:57:07 pm
I dunno if intended, but that comic always makes me sympathetic to NK.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just needed to post that, pretty sure it's been posted before, still, needed to post it.
Bye now.
*shuffles out of the thread*
I'm a sucker for underdogs.
Post by: Vattic on July 11, 2013, 03:01:41 pm
I have found my new favourite North Korea documentary. It's called the "Land of Whispers". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULO3i5Xra0)Nice find. I've not seen so many shots of the locals doing normal things before.
Amazing shots, really enlightening. Not sensationalist anti-North Korean stuff like some documentaries, quite sympathetic in some ways. The journalist irritated me at times because he was too naive for my liking (not understanding that he might get his guides in trouble and stuff) but he did a really good job. I was really touched by some of the interactions he had with Mr. Jim, the friendlier guide who was scared of Rammstein but loved Imagine by John Lennon. The girl who spent hours playing Angry Birds on someone's tablet, just enjoying the touch screen. Great documentary.
I've still got a really bad taste in my mouth though because I'm worried about what must have happened to the guides after he put this video up on youtube. The North Korean government is trying to get it taken down.
Post by: tahujdt on July 13, 2013, 06:21:28 pm
He's not that naive as much as he's being Mr. Exposition for his viewers who are that naive.I have found my new favourite North Korea documentary. It's called the "Land of Whispers". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULO3i5Xra0)Nice find. I've not seen so many shots of the locals doing normal things before.
Amazing shots, really enlightening. Not sensationalist anti-North Korean stuff like some documentaries, quite sympathetic in some ways. The journalist irritated me at times because he was too naive for my liking (not understanding that he might get his guides in trouble and stuff) but he did a really good job. I was really touched by some of the interactions he had with Mr. Jim, the friendlier guide who was scared of Rammstein but loved Imagine by John Lennon. The girl who spent hours playing Angry Birds on someone's tablet, just enjoying the touch screen. Great documentary.
I've still got a really bad taste in my mouth though because I'm worried about what must have happened to the guides after he put this video up on youtube. The North Korean government is trying to get it taken down.
Post by: Owlbread on July 13, 2013, 07:13:21 pm
Post by: tahujdt on July 14, 2013, 01:22:23 am
But then why did he get Mr. Jim in trouble if he knew that was going to happen?Sorry, I hadn't actually seen that documentery, I was just basing on other documentaries I've seen.
Post by: Skyrunner on July 14, 2013, 02:27:55 am
That's cute. xDI dunno if intended, but that comic always makes me sympathetic to NK.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just needed to post that, pretty sure it's been posted before, still, needed to post it.
Bye now.
*shuffles out of the thread*
I'm a sucker for underdogs.
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 16, 2013, 04:56:13 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 16, 2013, 05:06:37 pm
Quote
The president said the 35-strong crew had resisted the search and the captain had tried to kill himself.This makes me worried about NK
Quote
He* posted a photo of what looked like a large green object inside a cargo container on his Twitter account.And this about the rest of the world.
*The president himself
Edit: Strangely enough, the entered the canal from the Eastern side. They weren't heading to NK, to say the least.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 16, 2013, 05:11:45 pm
Hardly unusual, any North Koreans who are allowed to leave the country are extra-indoctrinated upon both departure and arrival to prevent them from defecting, since pretty much every other place on Earth is better than North Korea.QuoteThe president said the 35-strong crew had resisted the search and the captain had tried to kill himself.This makes me worried about NK
Quote
I think such openness and transparency from public officials is a good sign, not a bad one.QuoteHe* posted a photo of what looked like a large green object inside a cargo container on his Twitter account.And this about the rest of the world.
*The president himself
Quote
Edit: Strangely enough, the entered the canal from the Eastern side. They weren't heading to NK, to say the least.That doesn't make any sense. They would have had to go all the way around South America for that, because they departed from Cuba.
Post by: Xantalos on July 16, 2013, 05:13:00 pm
Well, NK, you tried.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 16, 2013, 05:13:20 pm
QuoteEdit: Strangely enough, the entered the canal from the Eastern side. They weren't heading to NK, to say the least.That doesn't make any sense. They would have had to go all the way around South America for that, because they departed from Cuba.
WHY WOULD CUBA HAVE LARGE GREEN OBJECTS
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 16, 2013, 05:16:06 pm
Quote
It had left Russia's far east in April and travelled across the Pacific Ocean before entering the canal at the start of June, with Cuba as its stated destination
They made a mistake in the first lines of the article. But the information above is restated more often.
Sovjet leftovers. Misplaced mysterious object.WHY WOULD CUBA HAVE LARGE GREEN OBJECTSQuoteEdit: Strangely enough, the entered the canal from the Eastern side. They weren't heading to NK, to say the least.That doesn't make any sense. They would have had to go all the way around South America for that, because they departed from Cuba.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 16, 2013, 05:34:53 pm
Sovjet leftovers. Misplaced mysterious object.WHY WOULD CUBA HAVE LARGE GREEN OBJECTSQuoteEdit: Strangely enough, the entered the canal from the Eastern side. They weren't heading to NK, to say the least.That doesn't make any sense. They would have had to go all the way around South America for that, because they departed from Cuba.
there is no such thing as a misplaced object
the objects resurface precisely when they mean to. i am slightly alarmed that this is the correct time for the resurfacing of mysterious large green cuban objects.
Post by: Sheb on July 16, 2013, 05:57:28 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2013, 06:00:02 pm
Also, why on Earth where they pretending to export Far Eastern Russian sugar to Cuba? their cover doesn't make any sense.
They're bringing sugar back from Cuba, which does make sense. What they were supposed to be taking to cuba from Russia the article didn't say.
Post by: olemars on July 16, 2013, 07:17:31 pm
edit: Reuters says mostly the same (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/uk-panama-northkorea-idUKBRE96F0WD20130716?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews).
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 16, 2013, 08:12:00 pm
I prefer to imagine the crew got lost.I prefer to imagine this was intentional, and ALL IS ACCORDING TO KEIKAKU IN BEST KOREA
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 17, 2013, 12:59:39 am
Post by: Sirus on July 17, 2013, 01:01:53 am
Post by: Steelmagic on July 17, 2013, 01:04:02 am
Post by: Kaferian on July 17, 2013, 01:19:06 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 17, 2013, 01:21:44 am
They're both the same thing and Sovjet is just another way of spelling/pronouncing it.YUp, Cyrillic doesn't translate nicely to our alphabet.
Post by: Owlbread on July 17, 2013, 08:23:50 am
Post by: Another on July 17, 2013, 11:38:44 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 23, 2013, 12:09:31 pm
Post by: Owlbread on July 23, 2013, 12:43:18 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 25, 2013, 10:15:58 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 26, 2013, 11:39:17 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on July 27, 2013, 12:22:09 am
Quote
Most South Korean citizens like President Park Geun Hye’s firm, principled approach to North Korea policy,Erm. What policy?
She's barely in the news. :S I think most Korean citizens don't even know what Park is even doing, let alone her policy.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 01:58:00 pm
Post by: Pnx on July 28, 2013, 02:07:47 pm
A military parade was held in North Korea the other day. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEkaGYBdHs)The announcers sound crazy dramatic.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 28, 2013, 02:12:44 pm
A military parade was held in North Korea the other day. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEkaGYBdHs)The announcers sound crazy dramatic.
Best Korea has best announcer. You don't have such announcer on West.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 04:11:57 pm
Spoiler: Interesting highlights from the parade (click to show/hide)
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 28, 2013, 04:15:23 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
North Korea has drones?Yeah. Apparently, the UAVs on display are reverse-engineered American MQM-107 Streaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQM-107_Streaker) drones.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 28, 2013, 04:38:47 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 28, 2013, 04:45:21 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 28, 2013, 04:52:55 pm
what has the best korea thread become
is this imperialist propaganda working its devilish powers on you guys i really hope it is
WHERE IS MY COMMISSAR HAT
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 28, 2013, 04:58:29 pm
this title and these comments towards best koreaI have become transcendent, the Avatar of Imperialist Oppression.
what has the best korea thread become
is this imperialist propaganda working its devilish powers on you guys i really hope it is
WHERE IS MY COMMISSAR HAT
My moneygreen American Imperialist blood burns with the prospect of colonizing the Korean people.
We are coming to end your Glorious Reign and tear down your Great Leaders, we will take your snow.
Run if it pleases you, nothing will save you now.
Post by: ibot66 on July 28, 2013, 05:04:12 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 28, 2013, 05:09:03 pm
this title and these comments towards best koreaI have become transcendent, the Avatar of Imperialist Oppression.
what has the best korea thread become
is this imperialist propaganda working its devilish powers on you guys i really hope it is
WHERE IS MY COMMISSAR HAT
My moneygreen American Imperialist blood burns with the prospect of colonizing the Korean people.
We are coming to end your Glorious Reign and tear down your Great Leaders, we will take your snow.
Run if it pleases you, nothing will save you now.
my commissar powers will not help me here
time to summon the GLORIOUS ARTILLERY
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 05:35:44 pm
They would be fly if the did. also the tractors aren't a bad idea they're cheaper then anything else north Korea could use, hell the could tow the tanks if the guys pedaling them get tired.
If the rocket launchers are disguised, the battle tractor is indistinguishable from civilian tractors.
It would complicate things for the USAF during the future
Also, I'd like to point out the fact that North Korean air force has American MD 500 "Defender" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD_500_Defender) helicopters in service. Four of them have been displayed on the recent parade.
According to Flightglobal Insight's report "World Air Forces 2013" (http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/reports_pdf/emptys/101015/world-air-forces-2013.pdf), North Korea has approximately 36 such helicopters.
Post by: Sergarr on July 28, 2013, 06:02:40 pm
Reminds me of that old anecdote about peaceful soviet tractors. I hope they aren't as powerful lol.
Post by: Steelmagic on July 28, 2013, 06:08:20 pm
Post by: Jopax on July 28, 2013, 06:12:14 pm
The only way they could get any orkier is if they sticked spikey bits all over them.
Post by: Steelmagic on July 28, 2013, 06:20:07 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 06:48:46 pm
They even painted them red!
At the previous parades, the battle tractors were colored in camouflage green:
(http://lurkmore.so/images/3/30/NorthKoreanTractor.Peaceful.of.course.jpg)
Apparently, North Korean engineers decided that da red wunz go fasta.
North Koreans also like mounting rocket pods and MANPADS on random armoured vehicles and create various new armoured vehicles out of any combination of Soviet/Chinese vehicles, spare parts for them and artillery cannons.
(http://www6.atwiki.jp/namacha/m/plugin/ref/?guid=on&serial=698)
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/components/ebygallery/Military_parade_North_Korea_Korean_army/up/tracked_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_north_korea_korean_military_army_power_new_equipment_001.jpg)
(http://m.ruvr.ru/data/2012/04/15/1306400016/2_Hkg7186562.jpg)
(http://giaoduc.net.vn/Uploaded/thuhien/2013_02_27/phao-khung-giaoduc.net%20(6).jpg)
(http://www.armourbook.com/uploads/forum/images/1325965852.jpg)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 28, 2013, 07:06:45 pm
North Koreans also like mounting rocket pods and MANPADS on random armoured vehicles and create various new armoured vehicles out of any combination of Soviet/Chinese vehicles, spare parts for them and artillery cannons.So what you're telling me is that they've created a metal gear between infantry and artillery, and we need to invade immediately or the plot of the world will only get increasingly inane?
Post by: Jopax on July 28, 2013, 07:35:41 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 28, 2013, 07:39:02 pm
Thankfully for us (and for them), no.North Koreans also like mounting rocket pods and MANPADS on random armoured vehicles and create various new armoured vehicles out of any combination of Soviet/Chinese vehicles, spare parts for them and artillery cannons.So what you're telling me is that they've created a metal gear between infantry and artillery, and we need to invade immediately or the plot of the world will only get increasingly inane?
Engineers from struggling small communist nations like to modify Soviet combat vehicles in a way that would horrify its original Soviet constructors.
Spoiler: For example, here's some Cuban armoured vehicles (click to show/hide)
I'm not sure why but all the parade pictures and videos seem incredibly fake. It's like, they're all incredibly clean and polished in the foreground and it's a very nice and clear day. But look back fifty meters and it looks like a backdrop of a smoggy city or something, just can't shake the feeling that it's all an elaborate 3D rendering made to fool the world into thinking there's anyything there :SThey use cloud seeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding) to make the weather sunny on parade day.
Post by: scriver on July 28, 2013, 07:40:29 pm
Post by: Jopax on July 28, 2013, 07:42:50 pm
Post by: Max White on July 28, 2013, 07:59:40 pm
Post by: Tellemurius on July 28, 2013, 08:47:07 pm
For some reason every time I see imagines of the NK military I can't help but think of 'Ride of the Valkyries' being played on a kazoo.related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuaB3kI5u7s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuaB3kI5u7s)
Post by: ibot66 on July 28, 2013, 09:03:51 pm
As the game goes on you could even capture nearby nations surplus equipment, diversifying your stock.
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 28, 2013, 10:31:12 pm
Post by: sackhead on July 29, 2013, 12:21:49 am
forward the cavalry, because that worked for Poland.
(http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/blogs-prod-photos/2/1/e/5/f/21e5fb03714e73df97f352f597465815.jpg?stmp=1326482682)
kim jong bonaparte
Post by: Steelmagic on July 29, 2013, 12:26:17 am
Post by: olemars on July 29, 2013, 02:21:37 am
Post by: kingfisher1112 on July 29, 2013, 04:49:21 am
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on July 29, 2013, 06:44:57 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 29, 2013, 06:51:44 am
No unicorns? For shame.They're all unicorns. Great Leader has simply taken their horns in order to create the People's Magic (You are now imagining what Communist magic would be like).
Post by: Angel Of Death on July 29, 2013, 07:23:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PatriotSaint on July 29, 2013, 10:41:31 am
At least they have artillery. :-\
Indeed, but firing your own dead
But at that point, Kim has already breached the gate on his
Post by: Sirus on July 29, 2013, 11:07:15 am
Something like this, I would assume. (http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Communist)No unicorns? For shame.They're all unicorns. Great Leader has simply taken their horns in order to create the People's Magic (You are now imagining what Communist magic would be like).
Post by: RedWarrior0 on July 29, 2013, 11:32:49 am
I see I wasn't the only one to think of that.Something like this, I would assume. (http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Communist)No unicorns? For shame.They're all unicorns. Great Leader has simply taken their horns in order to create the People's Magic (You are now imagining what Communist magic would be like).
Post by: Strife26 on July 29, 2013, 02:58:40 pm
Post by: Sergarr on July 29, 2013, 04:02:07 pm
Judging by these horses NK military is still going strong.
Also that oversized gun is hilarious. It's like 5 meters long *insert joke about overcompensation here*.
Post by: MonkeyHead on July 29, 2013, 04:08:58 pm
I now really want a game were you play a designer in third world country which must supply an array of modern combat equipment using only old soviet surplus equipment.
As the game goes on you could even capture nearby nations surplus equipment, diversifying your stock.
That sounds awesome.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 29, 2013, 06:00:33 pm
I now really want a game were you play a designer in third world country which must supply an array of modern combat equipment using only old soviet surplus equipment.
As the game goes on you could even capture nearby nations surplus equipment, diversifying your stock.
I'd buy it. It's a pretty awesome concept.
No unicorns? For shame.They're all unicorns. Great Leader has simply taken their horns in order to create the People's Magic (You are now imagining what Communist magic would be like).
In capitalist nations, magic is seen only as a highly destructive weapon. The American imperialist and militarist circles use their vast supply of spells to bully other countries into doing their bidding.
In Soviet Union and all progressive socialist states, magic is used for peaceful purposes, benefiting the people and the national economy. Furthermore, the Soviet Union is a firm advocate of unconditional worldwide magic disarmament.
Also that oversized gun is hilarious. It's like 5 meters long *insert joke about overcompensation here*.
Some of the Soviet experimental artillery designs from the 1950s, such as 2A3 Kondensator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2A3_Kondensator_2P) and 2B1 Oka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2B1_Oka) are even bigger!
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5646/4281233.2/0_b2fe3_fc6b4553_XL.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/2B1_oka.jpg/1024px-2B1_oka.jpg)
Post by: Jopax on July 29, 2013, 06:29:16 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 29, 2013, 06:45:15 pm
Funfact, the Kondensator is a nuclear artillery piece....created in response to smaller American atomic cannons. However, Khrushchev decided that missiles are more effective.
Soviet military engineers devised some really awesome projects, like laser tanks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1K17_Szhatie) or orbital anti-satellite laser cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_%28spacecraft%29).
Post by: Aseaheru on July 29, 2013, 07:23:26 pm
Post by: Steelmagic on July 29, 2013, 07:32:30 pm
I still think the Davy Crockett was idiotic and awesome at the same time.Can't leave the infantry nuke-less now can we?
Post by: BunnyBob77 on July 29, 2013, 07:36:57 pm
Post by: Jopax on July 29, 2013, 07:39:49 pm
I still think the Davy Crockett was idiotic and awesome at the same time.Can't leave the infantry nuke-less now can we?
That reminds me of that miniseries based on Stephen King novels, in one episode a proffessional hitman buys a present of toy soliders for someone and they come to life and start attacking him. At the end he fights a commando figurine which comes with a man portable nuke, naturally it blows up in his face quite spectacularly for a toy.
Post by: Lagslayer on July 29, 2013, 08:23:40 pm
Speaking of crazy military ideas, my personal favorite is Project Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rods_from_god#Project_Thor).Crazy awesome.
Post by: IronTomato on July 29, 2013, 10:53:47 pm
GET DA HELL OFF THEIR LAND.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 30, 2013, 10:24:07 am
You know what we do at times like these?I agree. We need more supply to hard counter Best Korea's battle tractors with carriers.
Construct additional pylons.
Post by: kingfisher1112 on July 30, 2013, 10:26:24 am
Speaking of crazy military ideas, my personal favorite is Project Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rods_from_god#Project_Thor).How about the Ekranoplan? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun_class_ekranoplan)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 30, 2013, 11:19:49 am
(http://i.imgur.com/cCpklQd.jpg)
Guess the purpose of this thing.
Post by: Fniff on July 30, 2013, 11:20:53 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 30, 2013, 11:21:35 am
Post by: Bauglir on July 30, 2013, 11:24:22 am
Post by: Jopax on July 30, 2013, 11:27:08 am
Also that looks like a death ray or something.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 30, 2013, 11:28:53 am
I'm not sure if it was real or not but I remember reading/watching something about the USSR experimenting with using some sort of nuclear powered system for seeding fields or something.Well, there's this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plowshare)
Post by: Moghjubar on July 30, 2013, 11:29:20 am
Post by: Sirus on July 30, 2013, 11:48:22 am
Here's another Soviet project:Can't see it, so I'm guessing its purpose is to be invisible.
(http://krasmana.org/userpix/202___2.jpg)
Guess the purpose of this thing.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 30, 2013, 11:53:01 am
Can't see it, so I'm guessing its purpose is to be invisible.(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18mr0cz36eipcjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg)
Soviet T-54 tank armed with a jet engine for detecting and clearing out minefields with blasts of heat.
Post by: Lagslayer on July 30, 2013, 11:54:06 am
Here's another Soviet project:According to my findings, it uses a mounted jet engine to detonate land mines with heat.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Guess the purpose of this thing.
edit: ninja!
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 30, 2013, 12:14:38 pm
Exactly!Can't see it, so I'm guessing its purpose is to be invisible.(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18mr0cz36eipcjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg)
Soviet T-54 tank armed with a jet engine for detecting and clearing out minefields with blasts of heat.
The official designation of this thing is "Gasdynamic minesweeper Progrev-T" (Газодинамический тральщик "Прогрев-Т") Прогрев/Progrev means "Warm up" in English.
It was used by Soviet forces in Afghanistan, striking awe in hearts of everyone with its look.
I've heard that a group of engineers in Canada tried to build a similar minesweeping vehicle in 1946. They've attached two jet engines to a RAM II tank. It was found out during testing that the jet stream failed to trigger the mines. Instead, it sent them flying around the test site like frisbees. The vehicle was put into use at a local airfield as a snowblower.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 30, 2013, 12:20:18 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 30, 2013, 12:21:56 pm
Post by: Frumple on July 30, 2013, 12:23:18 pm
I've heard that a group of engineers in Canada tried to build a similar minesweeping vehicle in 1946. They've attached two jet engines to a RAM II tank. It was found out during testing that the jet stream failed to trigger the mines. Instead, it sent them flying around the test site like frisbees.This needs to become a sport. It'd be, like, I'unno. Air hockey mixed with extreme Frisbee, shrapnel mine edition.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 30, 2013, 12:28:07 pm
And that's how Canada conquered the world. Not with any weapon of mass destruction - but an endless rain of hockey pucks, descending from the sky.I've heard that a group of engineers in Canada tried to build a similar minesweeping vehicle in 1946. They've attached two jet engines to a RAM II tank. It was found out during testing that the jet stream failed to trigger the mines. Instead, it sent them flying around the test site like frisbees.This needs to become a sport. It'd be, like, I'unno. Air hockey mixed with extreme Frisbee, shrapnel mine edition.
Post by: Another on July 30, 2013, 03:18:20 pm
Post by: Moghjubar on July 30, 2013, 05:58:45 pm
Soviet T-54 tank armed with a jet engine for detecting and clearing out minefields with blasts of heat.
Ah, so instead of sucking, it blows.
Post by: kingfisher1112 on July 30, 2013, 06:50:26 pm
Speaking of tanks and sport. Have you heard about tank biathlon (http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/774501.html)?Wow, they have tanks that can shoot 1800 kilometres? Told you Russia was going to invade.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 30, 2013, 06:57:01 pm
Russians (and Belarusians, and Ukrainians, and all the former Soviet Union) use comma as a decimal mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark).Speaking of tanks and sport. Have you heard about tank biathlon (http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/774501.html)?Wow, they have tanks that can shoot 1800 kilometres? Told you Russia was going to invade.
1,800 km = 1.800 km = 1800 metres
Post by: Blargityblarg on July 30, 2013, 06:57:40 pm
Speaking of tanks and sport. Have you heard about tank biathlon (http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/774501.html)?Wow, they have tanks that can shoot 1800 kilometres? Told you Russia was going to invade.
Something tells me that's a European decimal point, not an English-speaking thousands marker.
fakeedit: ninja
Post by: Sergarr on July 30, 2013, 07:29:51 pm
Soviet T-54 tank armed with a jet engine for detecting and clearing out minefields with blasts of heat.
Ah, so instead of sucking, it blows.
*cue supersonic tomato*
Post by: jimboo on July 30, 2013, 08:47:42 pm
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/ (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/)
Maybe better at oilfield fires than minesweeping.
Post by: kingfisher1112 on July 31, 2013, 02:42:21 am
Oh, alright. Just the fact that they wrote 1.800 confused me. Shouldn't it be 1.8?Russians (and Belarusians, and Ukrainians, and all the former Soviet Union) use comma as a decimal mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark).Speaking of tanks and sport. Have you heard about tank biathlon (http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/774501.html)?Wow, they have tanks that can shoot 1800 kilometres? Told you Russia was going to invade.
1,800 km = 1.800 km = 1800 metres
Post by: MonkeyHead on July 31, 2013, 02:45:16 am
Post by: Steelmagic on July 31, 2013, 04:07:53 am
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/ (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/)Because tanks and jet engines were invented for each other to fight fires.
Maybe better at oilfield fires than minesweeping.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 31, 2013, 08:18:42 am
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5638/9814836.2d/0_ba274_a909db4f_XL.jpg.jpg)
Post by: Max White on July 31, 2013, 08:21:12 am
Post by: misko27 on July 31, 2013, 10:01:44 am
Jesus, do soviets just attach anything they want to be mobile to a tank and call it a day?!?http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/ (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/)Because tanks and jet engines were invented for each other to fight fires.
Maybe better at oilfield fires than minesweeping.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 31, 2013, 10:30:24 am
Post by: Bauglir on July 31, 2013, 11:03:45 am
Why would that be a problem?Jesus, do soviets just attach anything they want to be mobile to a tank and call it a day?!?http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/ (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21968-big-scary-tank/)Because tanks and jet engines were invented for each other to fight fires.
Maybe better at oilfield fires than minesweeping.
Post by: Vattic on July 31, 2013, 02:15:42 pm
(http://www.iranicaonline.org/uploads/files/firearms-zanburak.jpg)
Post by: Descan on July 31, 2013, 03:13:15 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 31, 2013, 03:17:47 pm
Post by: jimboo on July 31, 2013, 03:30:13 pm
Thats less soviet and more Eastern European, I saw a photo that looked like a ship's gun on a tank once.
Works both ways: not-yet-President JFK mounted a tank turret on the front of PT 109. Seemed like a good idea at the time; PT boats were used mostly to take out Japanese barges, the draft is too shallow for a torpedo.
Post by: Strife26 on July 31, 2013, 05:42:47 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on August 01, 2013, 08:09:39 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 01, 2013, 10:15:51 am
Post by: IronTomato on August 01, 2013, 11:37:44 am
You called?
Soviet T-54 tank armed with a jet engine for detecting and clearing out minefields with blasts of heat.
Ah, so instead of sucking, it blows.
*cue supersonic tomato*
(Sorry, I couldn't resist XD)
HRK! *Head Explodes*You know what we do at times like these?
Construct additional pylons.
Post by: tahujdt on August 02, 2013, 01:46:06 pm
So... Has anybody yet had the chance to weaponize a pope-mobile? I mean they go through a few of them, so there must be a second hand prayer buggy market, and they are already bullet proof...It must, of course, have Biblical Canons mounted on it and be capable of firing Roman Missiles.
Post by: Bauglir on August 02, 2013, 01:47:53 pm
Post by: Strife26 on August 02, 2013, 02:47:51 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on August 16, 2013, 05:31:32 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 16, 2013, 05:35:36 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on August 16, 2013, 05:49:02 pm
Post by: misko27 on August 16, 2013, 05:57:43 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 16, 2013, 05:58:46 pm
This thread is 143 pages long?!
I wonder if that tops Great Leader's golf score... -143, of course. Haha, don't be silly. Under pain of death. -_-
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 21, 2013, 09:26:13 am
This thread is 143 pages long?!Best Korea deserves no less. IT IS MANDATORY ATTENTION REAPPOINTMENT. ALL ATTENTION WILL BE NATIONALIZED BY DECREE OF BEST KOREA MINISTRY OF PEOPLE'S INTERNET.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 21, 2013, 09:54:46 am
This thread is 143 pages long?!Best Korea deserves no less. IT IS MANDATORY ATTENTION REAPPOINTMENT. ALL ATTENTION WILL BE NATIONALIZED BY DECREE OF BEST KOREA MINISTRY OF PEOPLE'S INTERNET.
THE CLAIM THAT ATTENTION IS NOT BEING ALREADY NATIONALIZED AND IN FULL CUSTODY OF THE PEOPLE OF THE GLORIOUS PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF BEST KOREA IS
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 21, 2013, 02:36:12 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 21, 2013, 02:37:03 pm
Dude, cut the annoying fonts. We already did that, and it was stupid.That right there is bourgeoisie talk.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 21, 2013, 04:26:42 pm
Genghis Sans will cut anyone who says that he's stupid.Dude, cut the annoying fonts. We already did that, and it was stupid.That right there is bourgeoisie talk.
On a more serious note, I'm going to take a wait-and-see approach regarding the promises made here. I'd like to think that NK is genuinely trying to come to a peaceful resolution here, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised to see them go back on this agreement when it suits them.
Post by: Fniff on August 21, 2013, 04:28:00 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on August 21, 2013, 04:29:22 pm
I've heard (Rumors here, but I could find a source) that Syria is receiving rockets from North Korea. Unrelated news to the current situation, but it's something.The government or the rebels?
Post by: Fniff on August 21, 2013, 04:31:06 pm
Post by: misko27 on August 21, 2013, 04:32:25 pm
Presumably the government. One Dictator can never look upon a rebellion in another's country with total enmity, after all. He probably has a "I feel your pain bro" outlook on it.I've heard (Rumors here, but I could find a source) that Syria is receiving rockets from North Korea. Unrelated news to the current situation, but it's something.The government or the rebels?
Post by: Flying Dice on August 21, 2013, 04:35:23 pm
I'd like to know this as well. It's just a tiny bit important. From what I've found it sounds like they're supplying the government forces.I've heard (Rumors here, but I could find a source) that Syria is receiving rockets from North Korea. Unrelated news to the current situation, but it's something.The government or the rebels?
Iraq stops NK plane from traveling to Syria, suspected to be carrying arms. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-syrai-crisis-iraq-idUSBRE88K0EL20120921)
UN investigation of possible arms deals between NK and Syria. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/18/korea-north-sanctions-idAFL1E8GI00V20120518)
Chinese vessel caught carrying NK missile parts to Syria. (http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/11/15/2012111501361.html)
Same as the above. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/2012111413595335508.html)
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 21, 2013, 08:15:20 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on August 21, 2013, 09:56:27 pm
Tempted to make a joke in poor taste about quality of North Korean rockets.DO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT! I won't judge!
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 21, 2013, 10:05:38 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on August 23, 2013, 11:28:13 am
With North Korean rockets falling apart over all of their heads, does it matter?I've heard (Rumors here, but I could find a source) that Syria is receiving rockets from North Korea. Unrelated news to the current situation, but it's something.The government or the rebels?
Post by: Flying Dice on August 23, 2013, 02:53:06 pm
Hey, hey. North Korea is an equal-opportunity arms dealer; their weapons kill everyone, regardless of which side bought them. :PWith North Korean rockets falling apart over all of their heads, does it matter?I've heard (Rumors here, but I could find a source) that Syria is receiving rockets from North Korea. Unrelated news to the current situation, but it's something.The government or the rebels?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 23, 2013, 02:54:45 pm
Post by: ibot66 on August 23, 2013, 09:15:50 pm
It sounds pretty much exactly the same as this one.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 24, 2013, 12:30:10 am
Post by: Frumple on August 24, 2013, 12:38:25 am
I just read the first page by accident.... I never did find out who the states were intending to nuke...
It sounds pretty much exactly the same as this one.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 24, 2013, 09:49:33 am
If they're supplying the government, it's a good thing for the rebels, given that the government is that desperate.The government has always had the best equipment throughout the entire war. The only thing that is slowing down the sheer rate at which they are killing the rebel opposition is that they are starting to run out of ammunition. My guess is NK were sending the rockets to the rebels as some sort of Trojan missile. Rebel tries firing rocket, rocket explodes with the full force of best Korea best value missiles.
Post by: Fniff on August 24, 2013, 10:37:59 am
And they're trying to weaponize that fact?Hang on, they've become savvy that they are producing shit?If they're supplying the government, it's a good thing for the rebels, given that the government is that desperate.The government has always had the best equipment throughout the entire war. The only thing that is slowing down the sheer rate at which they are killing the rebel opposition is that they are starting to run out of ammunition. My guess is NK were sending the rockets to the rebels as some sort of Trojan missile. Rebel tries firing rocket, rocket explodes with the full force of best Korea best value missiles.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 24, 2013, 10:41:51 am
*Approx 99.99% of world population.
Post by: misko27 on August 24, 2013, 10:50:20 am
Nope, North Korea has just invented Smart Weaponry, which will autonomously fight all (possible) enemies* of The Glorious Leader.**Approx 99.997.
*Approx 99.99% of world population.
Assuming that doesn't include Iran. BTW, Google has a really convenient design for information like that, they give you a line graph and compare it to nearby countries (North Korea has about half the population of South for example.)
Post by: Sheb on August 24, 2013, 10:58:12 am
Post by: misko27 on August 24, 2013, 11:13:41 am
really? What did you type for that graph?Simply enough, "Population of North Korea". A number of other ones are there too, like life Expectancy (68).
Post by: Dutchling on August 24, 2013, 11:15:50 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 24, 2013, 04:17:50 pm
IIRC, the majority of North Korean test launches of short range missiles have been more or less successful.
Post by: Sheb on August 25, 2013, 05:53:46 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 25, 2013, 07:20:43 am
Post by: Fniff on August 25, 2013, 10:38:05 am
Post by: olemars on August 25, 2013, 11:50:10 am
Post by: MaximumZero on August 29, 2013, 10:44:20 am
Kim Jong-Un has a bunch of people, including his ex-girlfriend, executed for doing porn and carrying bibles. WTF?
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 11:32:41 am
The first is moral reasons, the second for our reputation.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 01:10:21 pm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kim-jonguns-exgirlfriend-executed-by-firing-squad-for-appearing-in-porn-films-8789322.html
Kim Jong-Un has a bunch of people, including his ex-girlfriend, executed for doing porn and carrying bibles. WTF?
I'll take this story with a grain of salt, like all the horror stories about North Korea.
The Western media used to portray the Soviet Union in almost the same way, minus the personality cult after the death of Stalin. They also cited Soviet defectors and dissidents and Sovietologists in order to prove their stories. The real Soviet Union wasn't that totalitarian and oppressive, though.
Now, the same Western media tells us about the horrors of North Korea... I don't think that their credibility has significantly improved since the USSR collapsed.
(please, don't kill me, guys)
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 29, 2013, 01:14:21 pm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kim-jonguns-exgirlfriend-executed-by-firing-squad-for-appearing-in-porn-films-8789322.html
Kim Jong-Un has a bunch of people, including his ex-girlfriend, executed for doing porn and carrying bibles. WTF?
I'll take this story with a grain of salt, like all the horror stories about North Korea.
Western media used to portray the Soviet Union in almost the same way, minus the personality cult after the death of Stalin. They also cited Soviet defectors and dissidents and Sovietologists in order to prove their stories. The real Soviet Union wasn't that totalitarian and oppressive, though.
Now, the same Western media tells us about the horrors of North Korea... I don't think that their credibility has significantly improved since the USSR collapsed.
(please, don't kill me, guys)
/me pulls out a dagger.
Can we get some source on that...?
It's not for me, mind you. I acknowledge that most of the propaganda regarding the Soviet Union came from stories straight out of their client states, which were significantly worse than the country itself, but that's the sort of opinion that's going to be contested I think.
Post by: Another on August 29, 2013, 01:44:31 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 01:49:33 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2013, 01:53:56 pm
If King-Jong-Un's ex did make a sex tape with 11 others NK popstar... Well, pic or it didn't happen.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 02:05:22 pm
Here's one example of American anti-Soviet propaganda: "What to Do When The Russians Come: A Survival Guide" (http://tapemark.narod.ru/conquest/), written by Wikipedia's favourite expert on Stalin's political repressions, Robert Conquest.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kim-jonguns-exgirlfriend-executed-by-firing-squad-for-appearing-in-porn-films-8789322.html
Kim Jong-Un has a bunch of people, including his ex-girlfriend, executed for doing porn and carrying bibles. WTF?
I'll take this story with a grain of salt, like all the horror stories about North Korea.
Western media used to portray the Soviet Union in almost the same way, minus the personality cult after the death of Stalin. They also cited Soviet defectors and dissidents and Sovietologists in order to prove their stories. The real Soviet Union wasn't that totalitarian and oppressive, though.
Now, the same Western media tells us about the horrors of North Korea... I don't think that their credibility has significantly improved since the USSR collapsed.
(please, don't kill me, guys)
/me pulls out a dagger.
Can we get some source on that...?
It's not for me, mind you. I acknowledge that most of the propaganda regarding the Soviet Union came from stories straight out of their client states, which were significantly worse than the country itself, but that's the sort of opinion that's going to be contested I think.
Several parts of the book describe the life in socialist state (in this case, socialist USA). They present it in an overexaggerated negative view.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 02:10:33 pm
Heck, most of them are due to facebook.
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2013, 02:50:48 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 02:54:15 pm
As to horror stories from the USSR, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, East German refugees etc. etc.
As to horror stories from NK, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, refugees, etc. etc.
If neither of them are "really that totalitarian and oppressive", I don't understand why so many people tried and still do (when it comes to NK) and risk so much to escape, then proceed to say so much about it.
Just look up interviews with refugees, or a few documentaries featuring them.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 03:03:12 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 03:03:45 pm
Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!
Right. What exactly is stopping them?
Post by: Drakale on August 29, 2013, 03:06:29 pm
Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!
Right. What exactly is stopping them?
Canadian bear patrols.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 03:07:20 pm
Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!
Right. What exactly is stopping them?
Canadian bear patrols.
Those damn Canadians.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 03:07:48 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 03:09:41 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 03:10:34 pm
Also, liberal-minded wind patterns and sea currents. (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/12/christian-bigots-lost-at-sea/)Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!
Right. What exactly is stopping them?
Canadian bear patrols.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 03:16:22 pm
G.I., just wondering, you're not actually trying to defend the USSR and/or North Korea are you?
As to horror stories from the USSR, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, East German refugees etc. etc.
As to horror stories from NK, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, refugees, etc. etc.
If neither of them are "really that totalitarian and oppressive", I don't understand why so many people tried and still do (when it comes to NK) and risk so much to escape, then proceed to say so much about it.
Just look up interviews with refugees, or a few documentaries featuring them.
And for clarification, I have no sympathy for Americans who want to "escape" (a.k.a. move to another country) that are supposedly so incompetent that the only thing in their way is said incompetence.
I'm pretty sure NK refugees weren't fiddling over their future career choice as they crawled under electric fences and escaped in rickety boats to South Korea and other nations.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 03:21:03 pm
Well, considering those who want to escape the U.S. want to do so due to their apparent incompetence; I'm not surprised that's the very reason they can't leave.
How seemingly small minded of you. Not everyone likes the US, as shown above, and while some of them may not be the smartest they are certainly not all useless idiots. Its just most of them dont have the skills to get citizenship elsewhere or the money to move.
And please tell me when I said that lack of skills was the only thing in there way?
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 03:54:08 pm
Well, considering those who want to escape the U.S. want to do so due to their apparent incompetence; I'm not surprised that's the very reason they can't leave.
How seemingly small minded of you. Not everyone likes the US, as shown above, and while some of them may not be the smartest they are certainly not all useless idiots. Its just most of them dont have the skills to get citizenship elsewhere or the money to move.
And please tell me when I said that lack of skills was the only thing in there way?
"How seemingly small-minded of you."
Apologies for appearing to have a "small mind".
"Not everyone likes the U.S."
Okay... and?
"...not all useless idiots"
Agreed, never said they were.
"most of them don't have the skills to get citizenship or the money to move"
If they are really trying to "escape", why not just seek asylum?
Also, I don't recall skills ever being a requirement for citizenship.
"that lack of skills was the only thing in their way?"
Enlighten me! I didn't see anything else, unless "Canadian Bear Patrols" was meant to be taken seriously.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 03:55:06 pm
G.I., just wondering, you're not actually trying to defend the USSR and/or North Korea are you?No, I'm not defending North Korea. I'm questioning the credibility of Western sources describing North Korea, because they tend to contain anti-North Korean propaganda and thus may not universally be true.
As to horror stories from the USSR, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, East German refugees etc. etc.
As to horror stories from NK, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, refugees, etc. etc.
If neither of them are "really that totalitarian and oppressive", I don't understand why so many people tried and still do (when it comes to NK) and risk so much to escape, then proceed to say so much about it.
Just look up interviews with refugees, or a few documentaries featuring them.
I don't mean that they are lying, I mean that they may overexaggerate stuff.
Do you have parts that actually come from mainstream media rather than some obscure booklet?I don't have access to American newspaper archives, but does the stereotyped depiction of Soviet Union in books and Hollywood movies count? They often describe the Soviet Union as bleak totalitarian state where KGB spies on everyone and sends all suspected dissidents to prison camps.
You may think that works of fiction can't form opinions about other countries in the minds of people, but if it's constantly repeated over and over again...
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 03:55:56 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 29, 2013, 03:57:58 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:04:55 pm
After all, there are living primary sources. I seriously doubt any of them are exaggerating anything, considering the consistency of the various accounts.
At the very least, they all agree that life in NK was bleak and horrific.
------
Life in the USSR was bleak. People were assassinated by KGB agents and people were sent to camps, masses of the USSR's own citizens were executed.
Millions died.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:10:34 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:19:47 pm
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:23:12 pm
The entirety of the USSR was a "bad time".
Of course, but there were periods that were far worse than others, and to be fair brief periods of decency where people lived with a lot of equality, free healthcare and job security (more so than people in the USA) even if they were still under the iron heel of the politburo. Unfortunately the USSR was such a corrupt and unwieldly beast that those periods didn't last very long.
As the USSR evolved and became more open, towards the end of its life really, it became the USSR that Guardian G.I. speaks of.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:26:28 pm
The entirety of the USSR was a "bad time".
Of course, but there were periods that were far worse than others, and to be fair brief periods of decency where people lived with a lot of equality, free healthcare and job security, even if they were still under the iron heel of the politburo.
Yeah, the same way I can enjoy a styrofoam cookie while shackled to a wall, I suppose.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:27:44 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:35:10 pm
What I can glean is that life in the USSR was at least as horrifying as NK.
At the very least, Kimmie doesn't execute every government official that looks at him the wrong way, stops clapping first, etc.
And by that I mean he probably does. >_>
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:37:26 pm
There are plenty of interviews with refugees, among many other sources.
What I can glean is that life in the USSR was at least as horrifying as NK.
At the very least, Kimmie doesn't execute every government official that looks at him the wrong way, stops clapping first, etc.
And by that I mean he probably does. >_>
No, he does exactly that and worse. He allegedly blew one up with a mortar (literal "go and stand on that big red cross over there" stuff).
But please give some evidence there, you've referred to some interviews. What interviews did you see? Before I forget, "Tsoy zhiv!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMT9F7dZltY) There, I've gotten it out of my system.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 04:41:22 pm
So, assuming that you've already figured out how messed up NK is without the help of the media, I'm not sure why it matters what the media says.
After all, there are living primary sources. I seriously doubt any of them are exaggerating anything, considering the consistency of the various accounts.
At the very least, they all agree that life in NK was bleak and horrific.
------
Life in the USSR was bleak. People were assassinated by KGB agents and people were sent to camps, masses of the USSR's own citizens were executed.
Millions died.
...during the times of Stalin.
I'm talking about the post-Stalin Soviet Union, the Soviet Union in which my parents lived and which they remember, more specifically late Brezhnev's Soviet Union.
My grandparents lived during the time of Stalin. They don't describe life during those times as horrible as Western media does, though it might be also nostalgia. From their accounts, the Nazi occupation during WW2 was much worse.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:42:40 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 04:44:18 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:45:03 pm
http://hcl.harvard.edu/collections/hpsss/
http://museum.gulagmemories.eu/en/salle/purges-territories-annexed-ussr-1939-1941
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 04:47:25 pm
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:47:55 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:50:19 pm
Either way, after Stalin's death, the USSR was still a socialist single-party state and was until the fall.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:51:09 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 04:52:20 pm
case in point (to a limited extent) all industrialized nations.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:53:26 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 04:54:26 pm
Post by: Descan on August 29, 2013, 04:56:38 pm
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 04:58:09 pm
Can we define socialist? Is it Scandinavian-style socialist or is it "Conservative Image of Hell" socialist that's been bandied about so much in political discourse?
The latter. PatriotSaint's idea of Socialism that involves jackboots and thought police.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:59:08 pm
And socialist states arent all dictatorships.
case in point (to a limited extent) all industrialized nations.
The key word is aren't *all*.
Also, explain what you mean, as to your case-in-point. All industrialized nations are socialist?
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 04:59:56 pm
Can we define socialist? Is it Scandinavian-style socialist or is it "Conservative Image of Hell" socialist that's been bandied about so much in political discourse?
The latter. PatriotSaint's idea of Socialism that involves jackboots and thought police.
More like: "Europe"
I call the USSR "socialist" because here someone will get their panties in a wad if I call the USSR "communist".
Post by: Descan on August 29, 2013, 05:00:42 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on August 29, 2013, 05:01:16 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 05:05:04 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 05:08:05 pm
And socialist states arent all dictatorships.
case in point (to a limited extent) all industrialized nations.
The key word is aren't *all*.
Also, explain what you mean, as to your case-in-point. All industrialized nations are socialist?
All industrialized nations (bar us) have socialized healthcare and many have socialized education and similar.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 05:13:11 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 05:15:41 pm
Actually, the argument was that not all socialist states are dictatorships, and that's true, so there's not really anything to discuss about that specific argument.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 05:17:15 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 29, 2013, 05:21:14 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 05:41:59 pm
The lazy, warm and cozy period of stagnation and corruption that can be surprisingly pleasant/tholable. You're still cwtching down into your blankets while the curtains downstairs are catching fire, though.The corruption was widespread among the highest party ranks in Moscow. Party officials from the smallest local party offices up to the leadership of communist parties of Soviet member republics (the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was officially an organization uniting the communist parties of all Soviet republics, except Russia, who didn't have one until 1990. The official name of the local branch of the CPSU in Belarus, for example, was the Communist Party of Belarus, in Ukraine it was Communist Party of Ukraine, etc.) were under public scrutiny. They had to follow the Moral Code of the Builder of Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Code_of_the_Builder_of_Communism), and being suspected of breaking it could lead to investigation by the Party Control Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Commission_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union), which could lead to the expulsion from the Communist Party if it finds out that the party official did broke the moral code. The investigation could be triggered by anonymous complaints from citizens.
The procedures described above worked as intended in Belarus, as my parents recall. For example, one party official in charge of the local Communist party organization at a factory where my dad used to work was kicked out of the party after numerous complaints of being rude to factory workers. One of my dad's friends at school (he studied during late 1970s and early 1980s) was the son of the first secretary of the Party Organization of the city (defacto, the mayor). He always had to wear cheap clothes (even though those children whose parents could afford it wore jeans and other fancy clothing) because everyone knew that he is the son of the high ranking party member and if someone found out that his children wear fancy clothing, he could be accused of immodesty, leading to trouble.
I'm not sure about other republics of the USSR, especially the ones in Central Asia and the Caucasus.
Post by: Owlbread on August 29, 2013, 05:51:34 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 29, 2013, 06:19:16 pm
Judging by some books I've read about Central Asia during that period the officials held far greater power, even running their provinces like fiefdoms.Creating family clans is a well-known tradition of Central Asian people that dates back centuries.
Post by: Just Some Guy on August 29, 2013, 08:07:09 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 29, 2013, 08:18:04 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 30, 2013, 01:46:07 am
Of cause Communists have an old mantra: "that's not a proper communism" but people with a brain can look at the working example and make a smart decision to stay away from ideology like this
I am like 99% sure that rumors about executions of Jun's girlfriend are true, because that's an expected route to destroy anyone who knows that Kim is just a fat stupid child.
Stalin did the same thing. He destroyed everyone who knew that he is nothing but a thug
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 30, 2013, 02:32:55 am
Post by: alexandertnt on August 30, 2013, 02:56:41 am
North Korea is a country that humanity requires to see what communism is
Of cause Communists have an old mantra: "that's not a proper communism" but people with a brain can look at the working example and make a smart decision to stay away from ideology like this
Like all political ideologies, there are many flavours of Communism. Asserting all communism/comunists to equate-to/support NK's Juche is a pretty good way to demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge on the subject, and an equally effective way of saying nothing useful ::).
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 30, 2013, 03:16:56 am
Idea of communism is not viable, impossible and degrades humans to the level of ants. Luckily it's just impossible to get as far as communist hope but any attempt to achieve it will lead to serious trouble in any society
Post by: Real3 on August 30, 2013, 03:31:15 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 30, 2013, 04:07:02 am
Quote
the same guy who preached about the "glory" of FascismNot true
Quote
and claimed the Nazis were leftistsYep, I claim that socialist worker's party were leftists. Crazy me
Spoiler: A typical right wing party programme (click to show/hide)
But that's a rather large offtopic, I just posted a kind of PTW post to follow the news. I knew that this "North Korean communism isn't true one" stuff will arise
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 30, 2013, 04:34:13 am
Besides, the meaning of communism has been changed to State capitalism, and any succesfull implementation is automatically called socialism instead.
Post by: alexandertnt on August 30, 2013, 04:56:50 am
Getting infected hoping to get healthier is unwise
No, not really. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccines)
Quote
Idea of communism is not viable
In general, I agree. But categorising it as a "disease" and an "infection" is not helpful in working out why it is not viable, its just useless emotional rhetoric.
Post by: Gamerlord on August 30, 2013, 09:03:32 am
Cowpox vs Smallpox. Cowpox was used as a vaccine for smallpox.Getting infected hoping to get healthier is unwise.I believe that there are cases where, excluding using phage viruses and vaccines, getting a disease will actually cause a more deadly one to be weakened.
Post by: alexandertnt on August 30, 2013, 09:38:14 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 09:43:52 am
As for North Korea, there's a good argument to be made that they follow a more racist ideology than a communist one.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 30, 2013, 10:35:33 am
Not much of an improvement, I must say.
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 30, 2013, 10:43:51 am
Point is, true communism has never, and probably will never arise. It requires all people to be good, willing to help their friends at all costs, and play fair by the rules.\
Besides, the meaning of communism has been changed to State capitalism, and any succesfull implementation is automatically called socialism instead.
"true communism never has, never will"
Agreed. Let's look further.
"requires all people to be good, willing to help their friends at all cost, and play fair by the rules"
While that could just as easily describe National Socialism (NOOOO Godwin's law), I agree that the only way that communism would ever work is if:
a) we all became robots
b) everyone magically and suddenly discovered they were living on a Heaven On Earth; courtesy of the new and improved government of course.
c) a world where people that think they can stop rape by telling people to not rape people would actually magically work, would have to actually exist, and, unfortunately (for us and for the idiots behind that type of logic), it doesn't and never will.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 30, 2013, 10:52:37 am
Socialism works in several nations, although some people do keep attempting to remove it...
Post by: mainiac on August 30, 2013, 10:54:07 am
Spoiler: A typical right wing party programme (click to show/hide)
Interesting strawman argument you have here. Sure as hell doesn't resemble nazi germany or the fascist movements in Italy or Japan. They had unilateral control of the governments in all three countries and didn't do any of that stuff, unlike say, Soviet Russia.
Let me try!
Spoiler: The platform of a conservative party I just made up (click to show/hide)
Wow, argument by complete and utter fabrication is fun!
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 30, 2013, 11:13:04 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 12:15:24 pm
We have far more important things to talk about, like two-thirds of North Koreans being meth heads. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/30/world/asia/north-korea-drugs/)
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 30, 2013, 12:57:54 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on August 30, 2013, 01:08:49 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 01:09:36 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 30, 2013, 01:44:34 pm
Well, it works in small communities. communism that is.
Socialism works in several nations, although some people do keep attempting to remove it...
Large-scale communism is just woefully inefficient survivalism.
Survivalism is small-scale communism.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 01:49:00 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 30, 2013, 01:53:22 pm
Well, at least as much as jokes about meth-heads and such. :P
Post by: MagmaMcFry on August 30, 2013, 01:56:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 01:57:17 pm
Post by: PatriotSaint on August 30, 2013, 02:01:54 pm
That doesn't mean they aren't, in fact, Socialist Juche and/or Communists.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2013, 02:11:58 pm
North Korea isn't exactly in a position to push ideology. They're survivalist, they're isolationist, and they're racist, but I don't see them as being communist in any functional sense.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on August 30, 2013, 02:41:14 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 30, 2013, 03:13:13 pm
Post by: misko27 on August 31, 2013, 08:17:48 pm
it's not about ideology, you can be a racist and a nationalist and still believe in a socialist implementation of your favourite right wing ideology. it's about planned economy vs free market, not universalist hippies vs xenophobic thugs, socialism and nationalism\racism aren't in the same political axisRacist Socialism? So Nationalist Socialism?
People really misunderstand Communism and Fascism. If it is inherently unequal, if there is a definite, obvious effort to incorporate forced Inequality into a government-run system, it's Fascism. If it's forced equality, it's Communist. If it's neither, it's neither. This has unsettling implications for many supposedly communist countries, I realize.
That said, North Korea is about one statement away from a divinely inspired Absolute Monarchy, if not already, so applying "Communist", "Socialist" and all the other may not apply
Edit: Kim Jong-Un's Girlfriend Executed after sex-tape. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/hyon-song-wol_n_3837098.html)
Post by: Steelmagic on August 31, 2013, 08:27:52 pm
Kim Jong-Un's Girlfriend Executed after sex-tape. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/hyon-song-wol_n_3837098.html)Wait a minute, wait a minute. 11 people were executed. Holy shit that sex tape must've had the most professional camera work ever.
Post by: Eric Blank on August 31, 2013, 08:42:06 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on August 31, 2013, 10:16:42 pm
Post by: misko27 on August 31, 2013, 10:52:58 pm
Huh. Apparently, when I post a report with those statements in it, it starts a completely unrelated flame war. When someone else posts it, people pay attention to it. Odd how that works.It could just be the sex tape aspect of it. Sex-tapes and Kim Jong Un in the same sentence is something that tends to dominate a discussion.
Post by: tahujdt on September 04, 2013, 10:00:40 am
I'm with MZ on this one, he did mention that before.Huh. Apparently, when I post a report with those statements in it, it starts a completely unrelated flame war. When someone else posts it, people pay attention to it. Odd how that works.It could just be the sex tape aspect of it. Sex-tapes and Kim Jong Un in the same sentence is something that tends to dominate a discussion.
Post by: misko27 on September 04, 2013, 12:25:00 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on September 04, 2013, 02:01:29 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on September 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 06, 2013, 02:48:41 pm
Of particular note:
Quote
"They are deemed 'wrong-thinkers', 'wrong-doers', or those who have acquired 'wrong-knowledge' or have engaged in 'wrong-associations'."Straight out of 1984.
By the way, did you know North Korea has a state-run comedy skit named It's So Funny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLfvsDurxvg&feature=related)? I'm guessing it is not actually very funny at all, but being that I can't understand Korean there's no telling. Care to give us a review, Sky?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 06, 2013, 03:15:14 pm
Post by: Darvi on September 06, 2013, 03:16:00 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on September 06, 2013, 03:17:04 pm
Do me a solid.?"Solid", in some areas of the U.S., is slang for favor, or something in one's interests.
Post by: Darvi on September 06, 2013, 03:18:31 pm
Post by: kaenneth on September 06, 2013, 03:29:07 pm
The majority of your population using highly addictive narcotics is not something that just happens overnight.
Religion is the Opiate of the Masses... (literally, being super religious releases chemicals in the brain...)
And Dear Leader is like a God...
Post by: Fniff on September 06, 2013, 03:57:41 pm
Post by: Sensei on September 06, 2013, 03:59:22 pm
Post by: Pnx on September 06, 2013, 04:17:40 pm
I always wondered: if religion is the opiate of the masses, what's the stimulant?I'd answer nationalism or something... But in North Korea apparently it's meth.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 06, 2013, 04:19:10 pm
Sky can't translate it either because she speaks Inferior Korean, which is totally different from Best Korean in that it doesn't have such a large vocabulary based around propaganda.As I recall, Sky said earlier in the thread that she can understand the North Koreans, just that they have ridiculously grandiose and archaic vocabulary.
I always wondered: if religion is the opiate of the masses, what's the stimulant?Also religion.
Post by: Descan on September 06, 2013, 04:27:10 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 06, 2013, 05:11:46 pm
Judging by somewhat mangled translation by Google, it seems to be a rare kind of song that does not feature obligatory mentions of the Great Leader(s) or the Workers Party of Korea. In order not to violate the tradition of sticking propaganda everywhere, North Korean propagandists added lots of it to the song's music video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iwg_GPNsgpU#t=11105), making it look like a weird tourist advert.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
)Post by: Descan on September 06, 2013, 05:20:02 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on September 06, 2013, 05:22:18 pm
By the way, did you know North Korea has a state-run comedy skit named It's So Funny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLfvsDurxvg&feature=related)? I'm guessing it is not actually very funny at all, but being that I can't understand Korean there's no telling. Care to give us a review, Sky?
Post by: Descan on September 06, 2013, 05:24:56 pm
it's not like I like you or anything, b-baka
Post by: FearfulJesuit on September 06, 2013, 05:30:13 pm
Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
Post by: MaximumZero on September 06, 2013, 05:35:13 pm
FearfulJesuit...that post was from March.Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
Post by: Descan on September 06, 2013, 05:41:53 pm
LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING BACK THERE?
IS THERE CANDY?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 06, 2013, 05:49:07 pm
I didn't ask her to translate it, I asked her to tell us if it was any good or not. A translation would be nice but is not required for this.By the way, did you know North Korea has a state-run comedy skit named It's So Funny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLfvsDurxvg&feature=related)? I'm guessing it is not actually very funny at all, but being that I can't understand Korean there's no telling. Care to give us a review, Sky?
Don't look at me, as that post is more than 4 months in the past, it is now officially the jurisdiction of Timeclone MaximumZero.FearfulJesuit...that post was from March.Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
Post by: kaenneth on September 06, 2013, 08:01:33 pm
FearfulJesuit...that post was from March.Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
I'm from March, March 1973.
WHY ARE PEOPLE RESPONDING TO POSTS FROM SO FAR IN THE PAST?
LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING BACK THERE?
IS THERE CANDY?
Yes, it's in my Van; the one without windows.
Anyway, I'm sad about the singer being killed... I had a little hope left that the son might be a little better than the father...
Post by: RedWarrior0 on September 06, 2013, 08:45:04 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on September 06, 2013, 10:24:13 pm
Or the son is a sock puppet for the power behind the throne.Which is scarier? A legitimately insane dictator, or a shadow figure using an insane fake dictator as a front?
Post by: Skyrunner on September 06, 2013, 10:34:47 pm
And I have no idea what the point of it is. :P
About the propaganda song
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
Icicles on the roof, white magpies cry and crySorry, no acid. ;D
And sing the song of the new year on this day
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall a lot
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall.
Post by: misko27 on September 06, 2013, 10:37:38 pm
First post actually. I do that sometimes, I write a post as if to respond, and then I realize it's from maybe 2012 or something.FearfulJesuit...that post was from March.Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 06, 2013, 11:55:00 pm
Ok, seriously, what the hell is it with the North Koreans and snow? First that propaganda piece about America that said it was covered in snow and people would drink the snow, and now this.QuoteIcicles on the roof, white magpies cry and crySorry, no acid. ;D
And sing the song of the new year on this day
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall a lot
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on September 07, 2013, 12:16:15 am
FearfulJesuit...that post was from March.Oh shit. (http://rt.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-strike-935/)
MSH...that article was from March.
But it said it was last edited today...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 07, 2013, 12:24:52 am
Post by: IronyOwl on September 07, 2013, 12:32:28 am
As I recall, Sky said earlier in the thread that she can understand the North Koreans, just that they have ridiculously grandiose and archaic vocabulary.You're telling me an antagonistic, isolationist regime also speaks like hammy comic book villains from the past?
That is so awesome.
Based on the translations of North Korean media into English, I can totally believe "ridiculously grandiose and archaic"I'd assumed the fact that they were, well, translations was to blame for that.
I shall now begin reading them as perfectly accurate and appropriately dramatic. I expect this to increase my enjoyment of them considerably.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 07, 2013, 03:45:56 am
This song is about New Year and winter. What did you expect?Ok, seriously, what the hell is it with the North Koreans and snow? First that propaganda piece about America that said it was covered in snow and people would drink the snow, and now this.QuoteIcicles on the roof, white magpies cry and crySorry, no acid. ;D
And sing the song of the new year on this day
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall a lot
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall.
By the way, that "translation" of the propaganda video about American poor people is fake.
The actual translation (in the video description) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpO2iEJmV0U)
Also, thank you, Skyrunner!
Post by: RedWarrior0 on September 07, 2013, 10:49:32 am
Not yet, however, even for us.
Post by: kaenneth on September 07, 2013, 01:47:41 pm
Ok, seriously, what the hell is it with the North Koreans and snow? First that propaganda piece about America that said it was covered in snow and people would drink the snow, and now this.QuoteIcicles on the roof, white magpies cry and crySorry, no acid. ;D
And sing the song of the new year on this day
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall a lot
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall.
I believe snow can sometimes symbolise purity/death (Korean funeral clothes are white, as in Japan) Kin Jong Il was buried on a snowy day as well.
Post by: misko27 on September 07, 2013, 03:51:47 pm
Now see, I thought it was because they are a country on the verge of starvation and snow=crop failure.Ok, seriously, what the hell is it with the North Koreans and snow? First that propaganda piece about America that said it was covered in snow and people would drink the snow, and now this.QuoteIcicles on the roof, white magpies cry and crySorry, no acid. ;D
And sing the song of the new year on this day
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall a lot
Snow fall, let the snow fall,
White, on the plains and the hills
On the Peninsula, blessed by the sun
Fall, fall.
I believe snow can sometimes symbolise purity/death (Korean funeral clothes are white, as in Japan) Kin Jong Il was buried on a snowy day as well.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 07, 2013, 04:33:23 pm
- North Korea - North Pole
- Magnetic poles are catching up, but quickly moving towards NK
- Dictatorial regime with hordes of impoverished worker slaves; producing toys.
- All overseen by a jolly fat guy.
Post by: Tellemurius on September 09, 2013, 06:29:46 pm
Actually, North Korea is Santa Claus's newest residence:im sorry but
- North Korea - North Pole
- Magnetic poles are catching up, but quickly moving towards NK
- Dictatorial regime with hordes of impoverished worker slaves; producing toys.
- All overseen by a jolly fat guy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Lagslayer on September 09, 2013, 06:46:02 pm
I should know which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's from, but I don't. Which one is it?Actually, North Korea is Santa Claus's newest residence:im sorry but
- North Korea - North Pole
- Magnetic poles are catching up, but quickly moving towards NK
- Dictatorial regime with hordes of impoverished worker slaves; producing toys.
- All overseen by a jolly fat guy.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: misko27 on September 09, 2013, 07:34:27 pm
The Year without a Santa Claus 1974. It's Heat miser. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbfgVEk-mxQ) His brother is Snow Miser. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPrbccEdI5o)I should know which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's from, but I don't. Which one is it?Actually, North Korea is Santa Claus's newest residence:im sorry but
- North Korea - North Pole
- Magnetic poles are catching up, but quickly moving towards NK
- Dictatorial regime with hordes of impoverished worker slaves; producing toys.
- All overseen by a jolly fat guy.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Just Some Guy on September 09, 2013, 07:55:17 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on September 09, 2013, 07:58:21 pm
I should know which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's from, but I don't. Which one is it?
which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's from
crappy stop-motion cartoon
crappy
crappy
:C thanks from ruining my childhood man, I feel like a North Korean now.
Post by: Lagslayer on September 09, 2013, 09:53:31 pm
I should know which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's from, but I don't. Which one is it?which crappy stop-motion cartoon that's fromcrappy stop-motion cartooncrappycrappy
:C thanks from ruining my childhood man, I feel like a North Korean now.
Damn it, it's stuck in in my head.*evil laugh* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNGCesEWgw)
Post by: Just Some Guy on September 12, 2013, 04:06:13 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 12, 2013, 04:14:28 pm
Post by: RedKing on September 12, 2013, 04:20:58 pm
The good times are on the way... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24058708)Seems legit. Obama is tied up with Syria, and it's been shown lately that the international community has absolutely no stomach for conflict. Ideal time to see what you can get away with.
Post by: Just Some Guy on September 18, 2013, 08:15:24 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on September 18, 2013, 08:33:02 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on September 18, 2013, 08:35:51 pm
Post by: Pnx on September 18, 2013, 08:58:54 pm
Interestingly Wikipedia only lists 4 people that have defected to North Korea over the many years since the war ended.
There's been quite a lot of cases of NK infiltrators trying to cross back and forth though, which is probably why the SK soldiers apparently shot the guy trying to cross.
EDIT: When I looked up "North Korean Defectors" I found this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2013, 09:08:13 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 19, 2013, 03:00:39 am
There have been a few American defectors to North Korea over the years (I can only imagine the type of mindset you'd have to have to make that switch), and the only known one who is still alive is this guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joseph_Dresnok)You know, I would have figured having a genuine American on hand would have been a gold mine for films with American villains.
Then again, I guess if he got famous after the first one people might start rooting for him if he made more. That wouldn't be good...
Post by: MagmaMcFry on September 19, 2013, 06:16:02 am
I'm pretty sure the propagandists have the ability to make their antagonists completely unrootable for.There have been a few American defectors to North Korea over the years (I can only imagine the type of mindset you'd have to have to make that switch), and the only known one who is still alive is this guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joseph_Dresnok)You know, I would have figured having a genuine American on hand would have been a gold mine for films with American villains.
Then again, I guess if he got famous after the first one people might start rooting for him if he made more. That wouldn't be good...
Post by: Descan on September 19, 2013, 07:39:01 am
I guess he wasn't very good.
Post by: misko27 on September 19, 2013, 03:25:30 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on September 19, 2013, 03:28:14 pm
Post by: Darvi on September 19, 2013, 03:41:30 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on September 19, 2013, 03:45:39 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 19, 2013, 03:48:30 pm
The Berlin Wall was just that. I don't know about you, but I spoke with someone who crossed it personally, and can say it had a pretty good track record. Not a 100% one, though. 70-90% tops.Difference being that the Berlin wall/ Iron Curtain was regularly (almost constantly) traversed by significant amount of people from both sides. Makes smuggling a bit easier.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on September 19, 2013, 03:52:39 pm
Post by: Darvi on September 19, 2013, 03:55:58 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on September 19, 2013, 03:56:36 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 19, 2013, 04:03:06 pm
FTFYIf it worked, it's not silly.No, that's stupid
If it looks silly, but works, it's silly. If it looks stupid, but works, it's still stupid.
There might be a slight difference between silly and creative though.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 19, 2013, 04:07:02 pm
Post by: Owlbread on September 19, 2013, 04:58:30 pm
Post by: tahujdt on September 22, 2013, 04:50:29 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 22, 2013, 05:20:56 am
Post by: Owlbread on September 22, 2013, 07:30:04 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 22, 2013, 08:13:31 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 22, 2013, 03:30:21 pm
How many people does Andrei Lankov say are going back to North Korea? My understanding was that if you were caught having escaped you would be brought home, interrogated/tortured and executed.
Quote from: Extract from Lankov's article, translated by me
...After arriving in South Korea, North Koreans attend a special 2 month course teaching the basics of South Korean life: how to buy Metro tickets and what goods are sold in South Korean shops. After finishing the course, they get a one-time benefit (the amount of money depends on various factors, but it's usually around 15 thousands dollars - 5 or 6 average monthly salaries in Seoul), an apartment and afterwards are left to fend for themselves.
Then, people get disappointed. Refugees find out that the beautiful life depicted in South Korean soap operas exists, however, it's unaffordable for them. Only the lowest paying jobs are available for refugees in the South Korean society. In January of 2010, the average wage of an refugee who is employed was around 1200 dollars, which is two times less than the average wage of a person born in South Korea. However, the statistics only count employed refugees. The average unemployment rate among the refugees are 16%, which is six times higher than the national level.
It is caused by objective reasons. The majority of refugees are unskilled workers - peasants from the poorest regions of the DPRK. It's clear that they don't have the skills needed to perform a high-paying work in the modern society. Even those refugees who have an education immediately find out that they need to get a South Korean education in order to get employed. Not everyone can do it. For example, I know a North Korean engineer who has to work as a doorman and a security guard. Theoretically, he can get an education, however, he has to collect money in order to pay for smuggling his wife and two kids out of North Korea.
Discrimination also exists. Despite all official (and rather insincere) statements about striving towards reunification, South Koreans view the refugees as foreigners, and foreigners are usually treated with suspicion and are generally avoided in the South Korean society.
However, the main problems of refugees are not caused by their modest standards of living - even when taking South Korean prices into account, living in Seoul on 1200 dollars a month is better than living somewhere in Manchuria on 80 dollars a month (not to mention North Korea). The main problems of refugees are loneliness and the feeling of total isolation, and also ruined high expectations. Locals avoid weird and suspicious strangers. Actually, they don't have much to talk about - their life experiences are way too different. The only exceptions are Christian churches, which are abundant in staunchly Protestant South Korea. Some of them provide care for newly-arrived compatriots. It's no wonder that many refugees become Christians during the first months after arriving in the country.
Life is especially hard for those people who arrive in South Korea alone. A few months ago, one of my acquaintances, who has a very good job by North Korean refugee standards, told me: "During the first months of living in Seoul, there wasn't a single week when I didn't seriously consider going back to the North"
It should be noted that it's relatively easy to return. All North Korean refugees can get a South Korean passport like everybody else. Disillusioned refugees use it to go to Beijing and afterwards show up in the North Korean embassy expressing their remorse.
Contrary to a popular belief, the people currently running the North Korean propaganda department are pretty smart. In the recent years, repentant refugees have been extensively used for propaganda purposes. One may assume that some of them get repressed, however most of them are granted amnesty and return home. The most clever ones are used as lecturers - they go around the country and tell about the horrors of living in the capitalist South. The text is written by the Party's Central Committee and is learned by heart. Deviating from it is strictly forbidden, however most of it is actually true and is based on personal experiences of refugees.
Sometimes the travels of refugees can get pretty tragicomic. Kim Nam-su, who used to be a director of a small North Korean factory, defected to the South in 1993. In 2000, he returned back to DPRK, becoming one of the first people to do so. In 2003, he defected to the South again, and soon after that organised the trip to South Korea for his family. Now, he quietly lives in the countryside with his family, growing vegetables on his farm.
Of course, dozens of people who return back is only a fraction of a percent of the total amount of refugees. Of course, there are one hundred refugees who take the most dirty and difficult work to collect money for moving their family to the South from DPRK or out of hiding in China per one person who goes back. However, the difficult situation of refugees and the existence of returnees is a bad foreshadowing for the reunified Korea.
In case of a sudden German-style reunification, the absolute majority of former North Koreans will turn into unskilled cheap workers, and it's not likely that they will approve it. However, the most realistic alternative is the continuation of the existence of the current regime, which is not a more appealing solution for its subjects. Unfortunately, the inhabitants of the northern half of the Korean peninsula got extremely unlucky, and their problems have no easy and painless solution.
Original article can be found here. (http://tttkkk.livejournal.com/206464.html)
It should be noted that it was written in 2010. North Korean policies might (or might not) have changed after Kim Jong-un became the Supreme Leader.
Edit: numerous grammar fixes. Plus, I've fixed the broken link.
Post by: Vattic on September 22, 2013, 03:45:13 pm
I'm sure lots of them are, but that's the power of brainwashing. I have yet to read it myself, but I know that the author of Escape From Camp 14 talks about how even most of the people in North Korea's death camps believe the state rhetoric and will report dissenters to guards.He said the the propaganda in the camps was less than outside. People reported each other because of fear and rewards like sex with other inmates (how his parents met).
Post by: IronyOwl on September 23, 2013, 09:29:40 pm
Well that's an interesting story.I'm sure lots of them are, but that's the power of brainwashing. I have yet to read it myself, but I know that the author of Escape From Camp 14 talks about how even most of the people in North Korea's death camps believe the state rhetoric and will report dissenters to guards.He said the the propaganda in the camps was less than outside. People reported each other because of fear and rewards like sex with other inmates (how his parents met).
"So how did you two meet?"
"Well you see, I'd just snitched on someone, and what do you know I get paired up with the cutest little stoolie as a reward!"
"I remember I was so desperate to see him again, I actually started making things up so I could rat people out over them. Teehee!"
"..."
Post by: misko27 on September 23, 2013, 10:19:45 pm
"So how did you two meet?"A match made in Heaven. Well not really. Actually fairly close to the opposite. But at least they're happy.
"Well you see, I'd just snitched on someone, and what do you know I get paired up with the cutest little stoolie as a reward!"
"I remember I was so desperate to see him again, I actually started making things up so I could rat people out over them. Teehee!"
"..."
Post by: Vattic on September 24, 2013, 03:06:29 am
Post by: Mephansteras on September 24, 2013, 02:41:57 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 24, 2013, 02:46:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 24, 2013, 03:40:42 pm
They've been fed up for a long time now.Sending someone aid and having them steal the trains it was delivered on will do that, I imagine.
I do wonder why/how fed up they are with the actual weapon stuff, though.
Post by: Mephansteras on September 24, 2013, 03:47:39 pm
They've been fed up for a long time now.Sending someone aid and having them steal the trains it was delivered on will do that, I imagine.
I do wonder why/how fed up they are with the actual weapon stuff, though.
I doubt they actually care about that too much, but it's an issue that the UN & the West have been focused on for a long time. Adding their support to that area makes them look good and gives them more pull in other areas.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on October 07, 2013, 05:42:03 pm
Post by: ibot66 on October 07, 2013, 06:04:58 pm
Post by: Xantalos on October 07, 2013, 06:07:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 07, 2013, 06:11:57 pm
More likely they'll just try to have China launder some for him or something, though China's got some bones to pick as well at the moment.
Post by: Sensei on October 07, 2013, 09:11:38 pm
Post by: Andrew425 on October 07, 2013, 09:58:11 pm
1. Proper metallurgy, which comes from years of empirically tested materials translated into engineering handbooks.
2. A large amount of engineers who can apply known methods to the problem at hand
3. The facilities in which you can build solid pieces of machinery
4. A knowledgeable worker base that can use the tools to build that machinery
5. A long list of every conceivable thing that the Machinery can take and its limits, start up procedures and the like.
6. All the electronics that would run it.
I doubt North Korea has enough of 2,3,4 or 6.
I remember my dad talking to me about a planned conveyor belt that they had to put onto a side of a hill carrying ore from a mine. The amount of engineering hurdles they had to go through to get something as simple as that working was crazy. This was after they had bought all the machinery from a Swiss company that specialized in building ski lifts and stuff.
I'm fairly sure that's why the Koreans are angry about it. It could take them years until they have workable pieces and for the dear leader that just won't do.
Post by: Mrhappyface on October 08, 2013, 07:47:13 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 08, 2013, 08:07:10 am
Don't they get money from importing nuclear waste? Or is that only negligible money?I have never heard of NK importing Nuclear waste. I doubt they'd be doing that, as international anti-proliferation agreements forbid the selling of nuclear material to potentially dangerous states.
Point is, NK has enough money to buy the ski lifts, but nobody wants to sell them. Recent sanctions forbid the sale of luxury goods.
As for why they don't improvise. Well If a warhead or tank fails, nobody cares. But this would be a tourist center for SK tourists. A single death could close the entire thing, as happened with the previous attempt.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on October 08, 2013, 08:08:16 am
i mean usually spent fuel rods are 90% usable uranium hence i demand sources before i believe this ever happened
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 08, 2013, 08:11:41 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on October 08, 2013, 08:13:52 am
by the way why does nobody properly recycle the stuff. i think the only countries that even have a nuclear recycling system are japan and france, and both get rid of the stuff after the first cycle
unprofitable or what?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 08, 2013, 08:21:08 am
Japan, India, China, UK, France, Belgium and Russia have active reprocessing facilities.
Post by: Descan on October 08, 2013, 01:20:04 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 08, 2013, 01:31:57 pm
At what point do they stop? What percentage of "usable uranium" from the original fuel do they stop? Or how many passed through a nuclear reactor?They don't. Uranium fuel is 95% U238, 5%U235. You put it into the reactor, get it out of the reactor, reprocess, add some new uranium and put it back in.
It's one of the primary reasons why Uranium fuels are technically unlimited.
Post by: Descan on October 08, 2013, 03:35:28 pm
I guess I'm asking, how many passes can the average amount take? I'm guessing 20 passes, from those percentages.
Post by: Darvi on October 08, 2013, 03:37:15 pm
Post by: Descan on October 08, 2013, 04:11:45 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 08, 2013, 07:27:11 pm
"How much energy does every [UNIT] of fuel degrading itself provide?" might be a better question, though one I sadly don't know the answer to.
Post by: freeformschooler on October 08, 2013, 08:05:16 pm
Post by: miauw62 on October 09, 2013, 09:40:17 am
(Links to part 1 and 2 in the comments)
Pretty interesting.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 09, 2013, 10:07:15 am
I think that depends on what you mean by a "pass." I'd think the rate of use depends on the reactor, though I could be wrong.
"How much energy does every [UNIT] of fuel degrading itself provide?" might be a better question, though one I sadly don't know the answer to.
The answer. (http://xkcd.com/1162/) Though it doesn't include the fact that a common Second Gen power plant has an efficiency of approximately 30%, maybe lower.
Post by: Owlbread on October 09, 2013, 01:43:52 pm
Spoiler: Modern video games? (click to show/hide)
That looks like an NES to me...
Post by: MorleyDev on October 09, 2013, 02:10:37 pm
That looks like an NES to me...
Why yes, that most certainly does look like a NES (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 09, 2013, 02:16:24 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 09, 2013, 02:54:21 pm
Post by: Sensei on October 09, 2013, 03:12:45 pm
They could probably make a killing by selling those to collectors. An authentic, probably in excellent state, North Korean NES. Pretty sure you can fund the purchase of a next gen console with that.Eh, a used NES (I'm assuming they allow people to play those) doesn't go for more than $50. They're still around.
Post by: Fniff on October 09, 2013, 03:23:58 pm
Sure, you could buy an Xbox 360, but what are the primary games of the Xbox 360? Shooters that show the triumph of western imperialists, such as Modern Warfare/Warfighter. Better to go with NES games. Mario may be Italian, but he's not in the US army.
Post by: IronyOwl on October 09, 2013, 05:27:03 pm
Of course, all of this is assuming they actually use or care about what's actually in there as opposed to just needing some games because apparently games are a thing people have.
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 08:06:56 am
Eh, a used NES (I'm assuming they allow people to play those) doesn't go for more than $50. They're still around.
The thing 10ebbor10 was getting at though was that it's an extremely rare North Korean NES, which may go for more money. I think it would be just enough to fund the purchase of a next gen console, depending on how the bidding goes.
Post by: Lagslayer on October 10, 2013, 09:22:58 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on October 10, 2013, 09:30:38 am
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 09:45:03 am
Why would you trade in an NES for a PS4 or Xbone?
Especially something as rare as a North Korean NES. People do silly things though.
Post by: Baffler on October 10, 2013, 02:03:10 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 10, 2013, 02:20:22 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 02:21:23 pm
Post by: Sensei on October 10, 2013, 03:56:17 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 04:20:50 pm
Post by: Sensei on October 10, 2013, 05:51:49 pm
Here's a picture of a Korean Comboy console:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So, which is in the picture?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1. The Famicom is the Japanese NES. The NES sold to the western world was designed not to look like a video game console due to the video game crash of 1983. However, it functions identically and can run Japanese Famicom cartridges, if you file the casing down to fit, so the only thing that distinguished it is its casing. The guts are the same.
2. Now SK Hynix, presumably so as not to conflict names with the car manufacturer. They make RAM and flash memory, a lot of which goes to US companies such as Apple, Google, Asus, HP, IBM and more. There's probably some as part of your motherboard, or in your other electronics like a DVD player.
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 06:05:52 pm
Post by: Sensei on October 10, 2013, 06:20:52 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 06:23:57 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 10, 2013, 06:35:08 pm
On what evidence sir? The price of the South Korean model, thereby completely disregarding the possibility that the price could go up because of its Northern heritage? It would be a one of a kind item, especially if you could throw in at least one Northern game.Is there a market for that sort of thing, though? I don't doubt somebody would pay something, but I'm not sure there's that many people fanatically into NK artifacts, especially for something as weird as an SK-manufactured gaming console.
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 06:38:44 pm
Post by: Sensei on October 10, 2013, 06:44:43 pm
Maybe if it was, like, Dear Leader's personal NES or something. But as it is, it's just some NES that's been in north korea.
Edit: Ninja'd, but exactly my point:
Quote
...like one of those black Japanese dreamcasts that you had to write to Sega for and you could only get them in Japan...Like I said, it's not even got a Dear Leader sticker on it, nor does it look in any way different or north korean, compared to any other Comboy sold in the SK.
Post by: Owlbread on October 10, 2013, 06:53:53 pm
All this said though, you haven't actually gotten a good look at those consoles. You and I can just about make out some black writing on them and thus we have a hunch that they're actually Southern NES's. You have no way of knowing that there is no Dear Leader sticker on them.
Post by: Sensei on October 11, 2013, 01:13:29 am
Anyway, I looked on Ebay and there doesn't seem to be a significant market for north korean artifacts- a few high-priced items look like price gouging compared to the rest. I wasn't going to follow it up, but I had to because I found this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kim-Jong-Un-Pyongyang-Style-North-Korean-Propaganda-Poster-/111129351597). Click at own risk.
Post by: NobodyPro on October 11, 2013, 01:37:07 am
Post by: Another on October 11, 2013, 04:42:29 am
If there was a Dear Leader sticker, I bet it would be on the front. :PFrom you link:
Anyway, I looked on Ebay and there doesn't seem to be a significant market for north korean artifacts- a few high-priced items look like price gouging compared to the rest. I wasn't going to follow it up, but I had to because I found this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kim-Jong-Un-Pyongyang-Style-North-Korean-Propaganda-Poster-/111129351597). Click at own risk.
"Artist:
Nadia Khuzina, MFA (St. Petersburg, Russia)"
Post by: Owlbread on October 11, 2013, 07:02:54 am
If there was a Dear Leader sticker, I bet it would be on the front. :P
It could very well be on the front, but you and I can't see them properly. We're relying on a blurry image with some black writing that we can just about make out.
Quote
Anyway, I looked on Ebay and there doesn't seem to be a significant market for north korean artifacts- a few high-priced items look like price gouging compared to the rest. I wasn't going to follow it up, but I had to because I found this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kim-Jong-Un-Pyongyang-Style-North-Korean-Propaganda-Poster-/111129351597). Click at own risk.
I've said many times before that it's not the fact that it's a North Korean artifact that would give it a higher value, it's the fact that it is a North Korean NES i.e. an item that is collectable anyway. The genuine North Korean army surplus items that I have seen have often fetched quite a high price, such as junior officer's uniforms (just jacket and trousers) being worth over 450 dollars.
Post by: Yannanth on October 12, 2013, 06:07:14 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 12, 2013, 06:19:38 pm
Post by: misko27 on October 12, 2013, 07:38:57 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 12, 2013, 08:12:44 pm
Post by: Sheb on October 22, 2013, 08:53:55 pm
Post by: Owlbread on October 23, 2013, 10:19:13 am
When did we discussed that massacre? Does anyone have mor einfo about it?
We talked about it when someone brought up the huge, mysterious drop in the prison camp's population a few pages ago.
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 09:06:15 am
The way things seem to work is that North Koreans will usually get very angry at cadres or soldiers trying to enforce laws they consider silly, like women not being allowed to wear trousers or being able to ride bicycles and so on. They will shut up however when things get political. They are getting much, much bolder, especially when you consider how things were 20 years ago. The most encouraging thing is that, because of the resistance people showed over women being able to wear trousers, Kim jong-un legalised women wearing trousers shortly after coming into office.
The documentary also shows a well-to-do family in Pyongyang discussing their desire for "basic rights" (they even say "look at how people in China have freedom of speech") and refer to the possibility of armed rebellion, though they say it would only lead to military crackdown and everyone being killed.
Post by: Vattic on November 17, 2013, 09:18:01 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 17, 2013, 02:24:21 pm
So, the Norks are maintaining the continued existence of the Eastern Bloc, or at least the USSR. I guess the people have no way of knowing otherwise, and with China's rhetoric the continued existence of communism as a powerful ideology would be a lot easier to lie about.
I'm very glad to see that there is an informal internet being created in North Korea. It really goes to show how powerful the internet really is, that it can proliferate even in a totalitarian state that only has a state-run intranet. I wasn't convinced before, but after watching this I am: these are the final years of North Korea. You can't make people unlearn what they have come to know, and the North Koreans are starting to know despite the government's best efforts. Pretty soon, all it will take is a spark.
I also noticed something else: Neither the footmen nor the officers of the NK police seem to carry guns or tazers. There's an interesting and dangerous detail for anybody fed up with the regime.
Post by: Xantalos on November 17, 2013, 02:37:23 pm
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 02:50:41 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on November 17, 2013, 02:51:56 pm
The first rule of happening is that it's never happening, after all.
Post by: Xantalos on November 17, 2013, 02:52:47 pm
I'll have to agree with MSH here. Things are speeding up so much now in the DPRK that it is becoming clear that these are the final years. The speed of change is what is key here. If we compare the life people had in 2004 with what they have now in 2014 with mobile phones, smuggled movies and resistance to authority being so widespread, it really could be a matter of 5-10 years. Though those things have existed in the DPRK for years it was never on this scale.Wait wait they have smuggled phones and movies?
Yeah, 10-15 years until collapse.
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 02:54:11 pm
Post by: Dutchling on November 17, 2013, 02:54:57 pm
I'll have to agree with MSH here. Things are speeding up so much now in the DPRK that it is becoming clear that these are the final years. The speed of change is what is key here. If we compare the life people had in 2004 with what they have now in 2014 with mobile phones, smuggled movies and resistance to authority being so widespread, it really could be a matter of 5-10 years. Though those things have existed in the DPRK for years it was never on this scale.I hope someone manages to capture the Kim family and set up a Kim/Dictatorship Zoo, with some Korean actors to make it look real to the Kim family.
Post by: MonkeyHead on November 17, 2013, 02:55:05 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on November 17, 2013, 02:57:03 pm
Unfortunatley, unless someone intervenes when shit starts to fly out there, its gonna be a bloody mess with millions dead. Hell, even if China or US/UN/NATO flexes muscles, its a likley clusterfuck. My money is on it ending up some kind of military dictatorship, with a China approved puppet warlord at the helm.So, basically just the same old thing?
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 03:00:31 pm
Unfortunatley, unless someone intervenes when shit starts to fly out there, its gonna be a bloody mess with millions dead. Hell, even if China or US/UN/NATO flexes muscles, its a likley clusterfuck. My money is on it ending up some kind of military dictatorship, with a China approved puppet warlord at the helm.
I agree with you that this will end in terrible bloodshed no matter what happens. However I think the pressure from the South would be too great to have the Northern people come under Chinese/Communist/Juche control again. Though the Southerners are usually quite clear that they don't want these Northerners wrecking their beautiful economy with their mind numbing poverty, I think that will change when people see the truth.
Don't underestimate how bad this could be. When people start seeing what went on (and is going on now) in those camps it'll be like another Holocaust or the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge. Everyone all over the world will be saying "We didn't know it was this bad! How could this happen?" but the truth will be that we did know, we just didn't bother to do anything about it. It's not like the Kims had oil.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on November 17, 2013, 03:10:12 pm
people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when
we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 03:12:27 pm
...so basically, once NK falls nobody will be willing to pick it up?
people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when
we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok
Actually, quite the opposite. Once the DPRK's government falls both the South Koreans and the Chinese will be in conflict over it. I don't mean warfare, I just mean... "conflict". In the modern sense, like Japan and the Chinese and the Taiwanese over the Senkakus.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on November 17, 2013, 03:19:15 pm
...so basically, once NK falls nobody will be willing to pick it up?
people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when
we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok
Actually, quite the opposite. Once the DPRK's government falls both the South Koreans and the Chinese will be in conflict over it. I don't mean warfare, I just mean... "conflict". In the modern sense, like Japan and the Chinese and the Taiwanese over the Senkakus.
you crush more dreams than saltybet does in a month, damned be your truthfulness
what should i send as a christmas gift for a stranger from the other side of the planet? i don't even know what they like
Post by: misko27 on November 17, 2013, 05:26:38 pm
what should i send as a christmas gift for a stranger from the other side of the planet? i don't even know what they likeThe entire repository of knowledge is easily available with a few clicks. You can figure it out.
*cough*. Err, not following the Historic record unfortunately. Plus the Kims have Nukes. Most unstable countries don't have Nukes. That flips the equation tremendously. I hear a lot through fairly world-wide media about NK doing terrible terrible things, and I don't think anyone can claim to doubt it much. It's something that can't be dealt with by most nations, only the US, South Korea and China are in a position to actively alter events there.Unfortunatley, unless someone intervenes when shit starts to fly out there, its gonna be a bloody mess with millions dead. Hell, even if China or US/UN/NATO flexes muscles, its a likley clusterfuck. My money is on it ending up some kind of military dictatorship, with a China approved puppet warlord at the helm.
I agree with you that this will end in terrible bloodshed no matter what happens. However I think the pressure from the South would be too great to have the Northern people come under Chinese/Communist/Juche control again. Though the Southerners are usually quite clear that they don't want these Northerners wrecking their beautiful economy with their mind numbing poverty, I think that will change when people see the truth.
Don't underestimate how bad this could be. When people start seeing what went on (and is going on now) in those camps it'll be like another Holocaust or the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge. Everyone all over the world will be saying "We didn't know it was this bad! How could this happen?" but the truth will be that we did know, we just didn't bother to do anything about it. It's not like the Kims had oil.
Of those, bear in mind those smuggled things come from China. Most North Koreans will look to China as a place of prosperity (which is, of course, a view advanced by the North Korean government), and compared to where they are coming from, it is. The DMZ has acted effectively as a iron wall instead of a curtain, and South Korean Influence is limited to their geographic proximity. I mean the South Koreans won't stand for the regular North Korea, and the North Korean government is still there. Don't overestimate what outside forces can do.
I mean the US still doesn't stand for Cuba, and recently Cuba just shut down all private movie and video-games parlors. And they seem to be doing fine. Hell they're just flipping the bird at Florida, and there's not a damn thing the US can do.
Post by: Owlbread on November 17, 2013, 06:45:11 pm
*cough*. Err, not following the Historic record unfortunately. Plus the Kims have Nukes. Most unstable countries don't have Nukes. That flips the equation tremendously. I hear a lot through fairly world-wide media about NK doing terrible terrible things, and I don't think anyone can claim to doubt it much. It's something that can't be dealt with by most nations, only the US, South Korea and China are in a position to actively alter events there.
I think you misread me. The US, South Korea and China were all I was thinking of when I talked about us not "doing" anything, just like nobody really expected Ireland to do much about Nazi Germany. I was also thinking about the unification of East and West Germany specifically, so I think there is enough historical precedent. If there was no such precedent I wouldn't be talking about it like that.
Quote
Of those, bear in mind those smuggled things come from China. Most North Koreans will look to China as a place of prosperity (which is, of course, a view advanced by the North Korean government), and compared to where they are coming from, it is. The DMZ has acted effectively as a iron wall instead of a curtain, and South Korean Influence is limited to their geographic proximity. I mean the South Koreans won't stand for the regular North Korea, and the North Korean government is still there. Don't overestimate what outside forces can do.
You are ignoring the fact that the USA will be standing with South Korea, as well as the rest of NATO.
Quote
I mean the US still doesn't stand for Cuba, and recently Cuba just shut down all private movie and video-games parlors. And they seem to be doing fine. Hell they're just flipping the bird at Florida, and there's not a damn thing the US can do.
That is a very different situation altogether.
Post by: Sheb on November 17, 2013, 07:13:19 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 17, 2013, 07:19:05 pm
Post by: Max White on November 17, 2013, 07:21:52 pm
I mean I sure hope that is the case, Australia is in the same boat.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 17, 2013, 09:02:20 pm
This documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHFp6s7jSxg) by Channel 4 may be superficial in places but it is interesting in that it shows just how widespread the resistance is in North Korea against the state. I was particularly impressed by one woman literally shoving an Army Officer in the chest, calling him a "bastard" and asking him where his stars were because he was trying to stop her illegal bus service. The "bus" was little more than a pickup truck that people were climbing into but the state wasn't happy about it.I was literally about to post this exact part. I'm surprised they weren't disappeared by the Nork government, this is good progress.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 17, 2013, 09:06:19 pm
And while the border guards and such might be ruthless, if you're offering one enough money to feed his family well for the first time in as long as he can remember...
Post by: Sheb on November 18, 2013, 02:35:41 am
NATO may not have a direct obligation, but the US does, and what the US does NATO inevitably follows.
*hum*Iraq*hum*
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 18, 2013, 08:35:25 am
What about Iraq? Most of the NATO nations participated at one point or another. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) Mind you, Iraq wasn't exactly a big enough conflict to call down the full force of NATO to begin with.NATO may not have a direct obligation, but the US does, and what the US does NATO inevitably follows.
*hum*Iraq*hum*
Post by: Sheb on November 18, 2013, 10:01:54 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 18, 2013, 10:09:53 am
So time will tell. Of course, it may be totally moot if the trends in the recent documentary are any indication.
Post by: Owlbread on November 18, 2013, 02:31:23 pm
Call me naive but I think that unlike Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever, I think this is one issue most countries would put their differences aside and rally behind one team, in this case the South. You'd have to be a special kind of bastard to support the Chinese here. I understand they hold the monopoly in terms of finance (they are the second superpower of the world after all) but I think even China would be going too far here.
In fact, here's a perspective. Maybe this will be the first real test of China's power in the modern world vs that of America, the first main "flashpoint" in a conflict that will heat up as the years go on. I know we've already had flashpoints but nothing on this scale; think "Cuban Missile Crisis" but just 100% hot air and no nukes.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 18, 2013, 03:25:19 pm
Post by: Owlbread on November 18, 2013, 03:33:38 pm
This is assuming China would even support NK. I wouldn't. If I were ruling China, I would see this as far better opportunity to clean up China's image and have influence in Unified Korea. This isn't the Cold War. There isn't as much to be gained from supporting terrible nations just because another power opposes them.
We're going on the assumption that the Chinese would install a puppet military government in the North, but surely that is unsustainable. Unification of some kind is inevitable.
Post by: Lagslayer on November 18, 2013, 10:32:16 pm
This isn't the Cold War.The Cold War never ended. It just moved more underground. NK is 100% Cold War politics.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 18, 2013, 10:34:12 pm
NK is a relic. China is going to choose the US over NK every time, which is the opposite of what would have happened in the Cold War. Trade is what is important now, and NK (almost) doesn't trade at all, the true cardinal sin of a modern nation.This isn't the Cold War.The Cold War never ended. It just moved more underground. NK is 100% Cold War politics.
Post by: Skyrunner on November 18, 2013, 11:11:06 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on November 18, 2013, 11:16:14 pm
So... what's up in NK nowadays?Same as it's been doing for the past 40 some odd years.
All the players from when the cold war "ended" are still doing the same thing. USSR leadership was never overthrown. China is doing the same old things it was doing before. North Korea never changed it's "function". The Middle East is still lashing out at everyone. Russia and China are still funding the same people, and so is the West. All the old battle lines are still in place.NK is a relic. China is going to choose the US over NK every time, which is the opposite of what would have happened in the Cold War. Trade is what is important now, and NK (almost) doesn't trade at all, the true cardinal sin of a modern nation.This isn't the Cold War.The Cold War never ended. It just moved more underground. NK is 100% Cold War politics.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 18, 2013, 11:25:10 pm
Post by: Another on November 19, 2013, 05:31:57 am
USSR leadership was actually overthrown twice. First Yeltsin overtook top leadership from Gorbachev in 1991 (there were some internal shootings by a third group along the way) and formalized dissolution of USSR. Then in 1993 Russian parliament which was mostly communist/socialist at the time went into hot (with more shootings) power struggle with Yeltsin (both Yeltsin and parliament did some very unconstitutional things) and totally lost (some deputies were imprisoned) in the end.So... what's up in NK nowadays?Same as it's been doing for the past 40 some odd years.All the players from when the cold war "ended" are still doing the same thing. USSR leadership was never overthrown. China is doing the same old things it was doing before. North Korea never changed it's "function". The Middle East is still lashing out at everyone. Russia and China are still funding the same people, and so is the West. All the old battle lines are still in place.NK is a relic. China is going to choose the US over NK every time, which is the opposite of what would have happened in the Cold War. Trade is what is important now, and NK (almost) doesn't trade at all, the true cardinal sin of a modern nation.This isn't the Cold War.The Cold War never ended. It just moved more underground. NK is 100% Cold War politics.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on November 19, 2013, 07:46:36 am
Quote
USSR leadership was actually overthrown twice. First Yeltsin overtook top leadership from Gorbachev in 1991 (there were some internal shootings by a third group along the way) and formalized dissolution of USSR. Then in 1993 Russian parliament which was mostly communist/socialist at the time went into hot (with more shootings) power struggle with Yeltsin (both Yeltsin and parliament did some very unconstitutional things) and totally lost (some deputies were imprisoned) in the end.
It's true, but not exactly. Truth is that one group of Communists took power from another group of Communists. All current top Russian politicians are either former members of the Party or their children. Nothing close to revolution ever happened. Internal power struggle and nothing more.
I hope that North Korea will go real revolution route and we'll see some active executions of criminals that control the country now
Post by: Another on November 19, 2013, 10:03:22 am
Thank you for this valuable addition that I contemplated including myself. The rhetoric and official ideology changed* vastly but mostly not the people at the top themselves. When the only party around was Communists all the politicians were pretending to be communists. As is in any party at the top of it - only a minority is in it for ideological reasons.QuoteUSSR leadership was actually overthrown twice. First Yeltsin overtook top leadership from Gorbachev in 1991 (there were some internal shootings by a third group along the way) and formalized dissolution of USSR. Then in 1993 Russian parliament which was mostly communist/socialist at the time went into hot (with more shootings) power struggle with Yeltsin (both Yeltsin and parliament did some very unconstitutional things) and totally lost (some deputies were imprisoned) in the end.
It's true, but not exactly. Truth is that one group of Communists took power from another group of Communists. All current top Russian politicians are either former members of the Party or their children. Nothing close to revolution ever happened. Internal power struggle and nothing more.
I hope that North Korea will go real revolution route and we'll see some active executions of criminals that control the country now
One not great but not the worst scenario that has some possibility of realizing in NK is Chinese style half-way reforms. That is definitely not possible with the Kim alive, but a military junta could potentially slowly steer NK into mostly capitalistic, mostly working (can't happen without healthy international trade and they would have to make concessions to ease trade sanctions) economy while maintaining ideological iron grip (aka concentration camps for dissidents). The positive moment here is that it would still ease eventual reunification with the South.
*That verbal change from the retarded Lenin's Way™ in my opinion led to big real positive shifts. And people who brought with them these changes, however crooked politicians they were, won because they had strong popular support.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on November 21, 2013, 08:37:10 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 21, 2013, 08:45:06 pm
Post by: misko27 on November 21, 2013, 11:09:10 pm
That's so stupid, I won't even change the thread title for it.That sounds like a challenge. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zwirfmGIU)
Another American Citizen was arrested in North Korea, A Korean War vet interestingly. North Korean news has not mentioned this.
Post by: Lagslayer on November 22, 2013, 12:14:03 am
Why do people keep going to these dangerous places? Certainly they must know it just paints a huge target on their backs saying "imprison/kill/hold me hostage!". Or maybe I'm being too optimistic.That's so stupid, I won't even change the thread title for it.That sounds like a challenge. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zwirfmGIU)
Another American Citizen was arrested in North Korea, A Korean War vet interestingly. North Korean news has not mentioned this.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on November 22, 2013, 05:15:59 pm
Did he try to illegally cross the border? If he did, he was practically asking for being arrested by North Korean state security forces for being a possible spy/saboteur/enemy propagandist/whatever.Why do people keep going to these dangerous places? Certainly they must know it just paints a huge target on their backs saying "imprison/kill/hold me hostage!". Or maybe I'm being too optimistic.That's so stupid, I won't even change the thread title for it.That sounds like a challenge. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zwirfmGIU)
Another American Citizen was arrested in North Korea, A Korean War vet interestingly. North Korean news has not mentioned this.
The sheer cost of trying to develop the new North Korean territories will surely crash the South Korean economy.This is assuming China would even support NK. I wouldn't. If I were ruling China, I would see this as far better opportunity to clean up China's image and have influence in Unified Korea. This isn't the Cold War. There isn't as much to be gained from supporting terrible nations just because another power opposes them.
We're going on the assumption that the Chinese would install a puppet military government in the North, but surely that is unsustainable. Unification of some kind is inevitable.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 22, 2013, 05:21:10 pm
I'm not so sure. North Korea is the lowest-hanging fruit of all when it comes to societal improvement. It could ultimately be profitable with the right plan.The sheer cost of trying to develop the new North Korean territories will surely crash the South Korean economy.This is assuming China would even support NK. I wouldn't. If I were ruling China, I would see this as far better opportunity to clean up China's image and have influence in Unified Korea. This isn't the Cold War. There isn't as much to be gained from supporting terrible nations just because another power opposes them.
We're going on the assumption that the Chinese would install a puppet military government in the North, but surely that is unsustainable. Unification of some kind is inevitable.
Post by: Lagslayer on November 22, 2013, 05:39:28 pm
He was there as part of a tourist group. From what I gather, they detained him because they just felt like it. Though, it's hard to get much solid info on this.Did he try to illegally cross the border? If he did, he was practically asking for being arrested by North Korean state security forces for being a possible spy/saboteur/enemy propagandist/whatever.Why do people keep going to these dangerous places? Certainly they must know it just paints a huge target on their backs saying "imprison/kill/hold me hostage!". Or maybe I'm being too optimistic.That's so stupid, I won't even change the thread title for it.That sounds like a challenge. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zwirfmGIU)
Another American Citizen was arrested in North Korea, A Korean War vet interestingly. North Korean news has not mentioned this.
Seriously, people. Stop going to these places. If the country in question is either:
1. Full of drug warring/infighting
2. Hates the country you are from/appear to be from
...then DON'T GO THERE! They hate you! They will likely come up with any reason (or not, whatever) to fuck you over and make your country of origin look foolish, or gain some sort of political leverage by holding you hostage. Going to these places is just plain stupid.
Post by: Owlbread on November 22, 2013, 05:45:19 pm
He was there as part of a tourist group. From what I gather, they detained him because they just felt like it. Though, it's hard to get much solid info on this.
Seriously, people. Stop going to these places. If the country in question is either:
1. Full of drug warring/infighting
2. Hates the country you are from/appear to be from
...then DON'T GO THERE! They hate you! They will likely come up with any reason (or not, whatever) to fuck you over and make your country of origin look foolish, or gain some sort of political leverage by holding you hostage. Going to these places is just plain stupid.
Well that isn't very true, the North Koreans will usually bend over backwards to make you happy and content in their country. They work really, really hard to make sure tourists have a good time, specifically one that would show their country in a good light (although if you disobey the guides or say something you shouldn't there's hell to pay). North Korea actively encourages tourism because of the income the tourists bring and any good PR at all is very welcome.
This particular situation is a wild card, the North probably wants something or he might have said something he shouldn't in a particularly forceful way, or god knows. For him to be actually detained then maybe he tried to escape from his group or something to see the "real North Korea".
Why do people keep going to these dangerous places? Certainly they must know it just paints a huge target on their backs saying "imprison/kill/hold me hostage!". Or maybe I'm being too optimistic.
North Korea isn't dangerous, not for tourists. This is very rare.
Post by: ibot66 on November 22, 2013, 10:45:25 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 22, 2013, 10:47:39 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on November 23, 2013, 05:39:43 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 24, 2013, 06:15:58 am
Posting to watch.In North Korea, post watches you.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 24, 2013, 03:59:01 pm
Posting to watch.In North Korea, post watches you.
No, it just informs the government that you posted and then goes back to trying to find something to eat.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 26, 2013, 07:03:05 am
Almost the same as in America, except for something to eat, it looks for a scapegoat.Posting to watch.In North Korea, post watches you.
No, it just informs the government that you posted and then goes back to trying to find something to eat.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MaximumZero on November 30, 2013, 12:57:32 am
As an American, dohohoho!Almost the same as in America, except for something to eat, it looks for a scapegoat.Posting to watch.In North Korea, post watches you.
No, it just informs the government that you posted and then goes back to trying to find something to eat.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: misko27 on November 30, 2013, 02:46:22 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on November 30, 2013, 03:35:22 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 07, 2013, 05:06:07 am
Post by: Owlbread on December 07, 2013, 09:29:25 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 09, 2013, 02:05:15 pm
.
Spoiler: Korean Central News Agency's report condemning him (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 09, 2013, 02:07:12 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 09, 2013, 03:19:50 pm
Post by: ibot66 on December 09, 2013, 03:33:00 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 10, 2013, 08:46:14 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 10, 2013, 12:16:53 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on December 10, 2013, 02:47:55 pm
Here's an interesting article about North Korea. (http://www.nknews.org/2013/11/why-north-koreans-now-long-for-the-age-of-indoctrination/)That was interesting.
Post by: Lagslayer on December 12, 2013, 07:12:11 pm
Post by: Darvi on December 12, 2013, 07:23:11 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on December 12, 2013, 07:34:03 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on December 12, 2013, 08:35:58 pm
Post by: Descan on December 12, 2013, 09:49:13 pm
Post by: mainiac on December 12, 2013, 10:47:32 pm
kim's uncle was a rival and probably a monster too. kim's ex-girlfriend though...
A "monster" who was the loudest voice for reform...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 12, 2013, 10:55:09 pm
And China's main contact in their government too. I guess this pretty well confirms that Kim-Jong Un is a hardliner, not a moderate.kim's uncle was a rival and probably a monster too. kim's ex-girlfriend though...
A "monster" who was the loudest voice for reform...
I've started to hear rumors that he was executed by being fed to a pack of starving dogs in front of a bunch of other high ranking party officials. Pillsbury Doughboy is doing a frighteningly good job at surpassing his father and grandfather, but with the internal instability and lack of respect for Kim the Even Younger might make these crackdowns have a very different effect than he intends.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on December 13, 2013, 01:23:18 am
From the BBC News article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25359939), it gets even creepier- he wasn't just a rank-and-file top echelon Party cadre, he got the top military post when Lil' Kim came into power. Whatever power the generals have over Dear Leader, it certainly isn't enough to protect them.
(That being said, there's always the possibility this was in part the result of inter-general squabbling...)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 13, 2013, 01:31:13 am
Post by: Steelmagic on December 13, 2013, 01:33:31 am
Post by: misko27 on December 13, 2013, 01:51:23 am
It would be nice if somebody could hack into and steal all NK's records (I bet most of them are still paper, though). It'd make for...interesting reading. We'll find out in no more than a decade or two.I'm suddenly reminded of Cuba.
The Mitchelin Tire Guy may go down, but he might not for a good long while. He and his family have stayed in power for many years now; Mr. Kardashian has just proved his willingness to execute his generals to stay in power. I'm not saying he is stable, he certainly is quite the opposite, but I think talk of his end may be premature till we actually see evidence of it happening. He lives in a wooden home soaked in kerosene, but there isn't a match for miles.
Also, "Un v. UN" needs to be a title for this thread at some point.
Post by: Another on December 13, 2013, 06:21:18 am
Post by: Skyrunner on December 13, 2013, 07:04:28 am
Post by: Sheb on December 13, 2013, 07:19:49 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 13, 2013, 12:46:43 pm
Someone has been playing too much CK2.Apparently there was a brief disagreement over national policies resulting in Kim Jong-un letting the state security loose on the failed North Korean Gorbachev and his followers.
I guess there won't be any Perestroikas in North Korea in the near future.
Also, fun fact: the largest discovered deposit of rare earth elements in the world is located in DPRK. (http://www.mining.com/largest-known-rare-earth-deposit-discovered-in-north-korea-86139/)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 13, 2013, 04:27:31 pm
Post by: Sensei on December 13, 2013, 07:10:54 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 13, 2013, 07:34:11 pm
That almost strikes me as totally irrelevant, actually. For the US it does all the good of Oil trapped under 32 miles miles of Antarctic ice and rock. Plus, China was already the primary source for those materials, so it is a) not remotely surprising the nearby nation of Northern Koreastan has a lot, and b) the Chinese have their fingers ALL over that cookie jar. And frankly I think the West would rather buy from China then any government Kim Land might have for the next 20 years or so, whether under the Un or the UN.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 13, 2013, 09:54:47 pm
Post by: Fniff on December 13, 2013, 10:17:20 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 13, 2013, 10:36:51 pm
This is becoming the "Nickname Kim Jung Un" thread, isn't it?You have nobody to blame but yourself.
Post by: ShoesandHats on December 13, 2013, 10:48:29 pm
Post by: Descan on December 13, 2013, 10:58:34 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 13, 2013, 11:01:29 pm
Post by: Rose on December 13, 2013, 11:15:47 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on December 13, 2013, 11:55:53 pm
Kim-Chi
Kimichanga
K'mpek (if you don't have to look it up, you get a cookie)
Post by: MaximumZero on December 14, 2013, 12:14:56 am
Post by: Skyrunner on December 14, 2013, 06:18:50 am
The Korean media is saying that judging by his many bruises, he was probably tortured until he admitted that he wanted to stage a coup. Logically, if he actually was going to do so, he would have either committed suicide or admit EVERYTHING (including things Kim wouldn't want people to hear) or pull off a last-ditch effort. Plus, the relatively stable state of the current Kim rule is obviously not the best environment to attempt a coup in.
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 14, 2013, 01:15:01 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on December 14, 2013, 01:40:03 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 14, 2013, 01:43:41 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2013, 02:30:57 pm
Post by: tahujdt on December 14, 2013, 02:58:31 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2013, 05:36:11 pm
Kim-Possible Jong Un-stoppable.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on December 14, 2013, 05:39:49 pm
Poor Jang Sung-taek (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/12/12/kim_jong_un_executes_his_uncle_jang_song_taek_for_plotting_a_coup): It seems that he was basically a scapegoat for North Korea's recent series of economical failures, plus he was a sort of warning shot to anyone who might want to stage a coup.Plus they supposedly noticed all his treachery well in advance and kept telling him to stop it, which he didn't. Even for an insular despotic oligarchy, I'm thinking he'd have adjusted his strategies somewhat when everyone he was plotting against kept openly telling him to cut it out.
The Korean media is saying that judging by his many bruises, he was probably tortured until he admitted that he wanted to stage a coup. Logically, if he actually was going to do so, he would have either committed suicide or admit EVERYTHING (including things Kim wouldn't want people to hear) or pull off a last-ditch effort. Plus, the relatively stable state of the current Kim rule is obviously not the best environment to attempt a coup in.
Gloriously thin leader has experienced minor and unmeaningful setbacks, due to the criminal and unforgivable capitalistic interference with the people's entirely unified and singular desire to see their leader gain rightful and just narrowness for all the Korean people.Kim-Possible Jong Un-stoppable.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: misko27 on December 14, 2013, 08:05:06 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on December 14, 2013, 11:19:34 pm
You going to do Kimbo Slice, too? That would also be suitably hilarious.Kim-Possible Jong Un-stoppable.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Yannanth on December 15, 2013, 03:27:27 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 15, 2013, 03:43:07 pm
Post by: Helgoland on December 15, 2013, 04:47:45 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 15, 2013, 05:54:09 pm
Sorry everyone, Christmas is cancelled (http://www.dramafever.com/news/christmas-canceled-in-north-korea/) this year in Best Korea.The Kim that stole Christmas D:
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2013, 07:03:08 pm
Something on the order of 500 tanks or so. Which is, you know, a lot. :|
Post by: Lagslayer on December 15, 2013, 08:56:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 15, 2013, 09:02:18 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 15, 2013, 09:05:30 pm
Hypothetically speaking, if China were to move in and take over NK, do you think conditions there would improve? Or would China continue to not give them anything?Depends on their ultimate motives: If they want to annex the North entirely, or put it into a vassal state, they will want to bring them up to somewhere approaching Chinese living standards (and, of course, be revered as heroes by the North Koreans, who are already taught that China is wonderful.) Alternatively, if they suspect that the South may want it back any time soon, they will possibly put off any serious attempts to improve the living standards.
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2013, 10:19:52 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 15, 2013, 10:27:58 pm
Everybody has better supply lines than North Korea.
Post by: alway on December 15, 2013, 10:45:17 pm
If they were trying to turn SK to their own favor, they might just cede the entire thing to them; though that's highly unlikely.
Since they really don't want to deal with the NK populace, I suspect they would give most of it to SK, then keep a nice, thick chunk along their border and militarize the hell out of it. They would then send any refugees/inhabitants into the SK part, and let them deal with the mess. Possibly while kicking back and munching on some popcorn. It'll take an entire generation, maybe two, to rehabilitate the region; which is why China's biggest goal is preventing a massive wave of NK refugees flooding over their border.
Post by: misko27 on December 15, 2013, 10:48:51 pm
Depends on how nasty the war is.I wouldn't even go so far as to say that, because China is basically the difference between Sir Kimmy Fattington's Nightmare Despot's fantasy and Somalia: the Lawless years. If China intervened, maybe after cutting off supplies for a few months and letting the North stew over it's utter collapse, it would roll in African Union style, crushing the feeble opposition (which, the current government having collapsed, would lack any sort of institution to rally around other then the Army, which is dependent on Chinese supplies.) and looking like big damn heroes. At worst there'd be remnant army trying to oppose, but honestly why even bother?
It'd be like the US invading Afghanistan, except if you shrunk Afghanistan down to the size of approximately Ohio, cut it's population by seven million, removed any non-state militia or institution, made it totally dependent on US supplies to maintain it's state and army, made it's citizens look to the US as a friendly, benevolent world power with nothing but Afghani interests in mind and similar values, and put it right on the US border to boot. I'm not saying there wouldn't be any Chinese casualties, but it would be on par with the US invasion of Haiti by Clinton: One casualty by a guy who probably got run over by an army truck. Possibly the most sweeping curbstomp in modern history.
Post by: Owlbread on December 15, 2013, 10:51:33 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 15, 2013, 10:57:58 pm
The South really should step in as soon as the North collapses. The way I see it a unified Korea is inevitable.>Unification
>Owlbread
>2013
/me is even more convinced that Owlbread has been replaced by a Tory imposter.
Post by: Skyrunner on December 15, 2013, 11:01:15 pm
Post by: Owlbread on December 15, 2013, 11:08:40 pm
>Unification
>Owlbread
>2013
/me is even more convinced that Owlbread has been replaced by a Tory imposter.
I know, I know, such terminology is appalling coming from me. The thing is though Korea is rare in that it is a complete nation, i.e. the national equivalent of an atom (not this again) that cannot really be divided into smaller countries because they are genuinely 1 people. China, India, Pakistan and Japan would be very different examples that could be divided because they incorporate several or many nations, as with Russia, the UK and so on. You could divide Scotland better on national lines than you could Korea.
I do believe, however, that any United Korea should be federal and allow a devolved government to control the North (rather like in Scotland, but with more power), ideally maintaining what is left of the Socialist system up there by the time the country collapses. I think though given that the North Koreans' main goal is to unify the Korean peninsula (they bang on about unification more than they do the Americans or anyone else) and the Southern governments seem to be quite behind the idea, what with their Ministry of Unification and so on, a unified Korea is the only likely future if things go bad. No Chinese puppet government in the North would be enough to stop the tsunami of freedom, and there's still families in the South that have relatives in the North, separated by the war.
Post by: MaximumZero on December 15, 2013, 11:10:32 pm
Unification would probably bring the % of Koreans in poverty waaay up. We don't have enough jobs as it is! :DThat said, NK has a lot of natural resources and room to sprawl that SK doesn't currently have. That's an easy way to create lots and lots of jobs quickly.
Post by: misko27 on December 15, 2013, 11:39:10 pm
The South really should step in as soon as the North collapses. The way I see it a unified Korea is inevitable.That isn't too surprising, but the South doesn't want to. I mean, it'd be like German reunification on Hard, nay, Insane mode (Kim Jong Un mode). It's East Germany's problems multiplied, economic, social, etc. Minute the government collapses (and, crucially, Chinese funding is cut off) North Korea is Somalia with snow and a secular militia in charge instead. The sheer social, economic, political changes required boggles the mind. I want them together as much as you do, but I can see why the South (and China, for many of the same reasons) is reluctant.
On another note, Wikipedia lists NK's "Eternal President" as Kim Il-sung, and their "Eternal Worker's Party of Korea (WPK) General Secretary" as Kim Jong-Il, which I thought was interesting.
"Tsunami of Freedom". If China wanted to, they could go Putin and simply annex the whole fucking place, and not a damn thing could be done (the US certainly isn't going to start WWIII over it). If China wanted to, they could set it up under some other, more Chinese-like dictator, and modernize it as a vassal state that would be grateful to their new (old really) Chinese overlords. If China wanted to, they could kill half the population within months simply by not doing anything and watching the fireworks. If China wanted to, they could simply send the Un to the UN (and probably the Hague) and give the North to the South over the threshold. If China wanted to, they could force the North into an suicidal attack against the South, and America if it is in reach, and kill millions.>Unification
>Owlbread
>2013
/me is even more convinced that Owlbread has been replaced by a Tory imposter.
I know, I know, such terminology is appalling coming from me. The thing is though Korea is rare in that it is a complete nation, i.e. the national equivalent of an atom (not this again) that cannot really be divided into smaller countries because they are genuinely 1 people. China, India, Pakistan and Japan would be very different examples that could be divided because they incorporate several or many nations, as with Russia, the UK and so on. You could divide Scotland better on national lines than you could Korea.
I do believe, however, that any United Korea should be federal and allow a devolved government to control the North (rather like in Scotland, but with more power), ideally maintaining what is left of the Socialist system up there by the time the country collapses. I think though given that the North Koreans' main goal is to unify the Korean peninsula (they bang on about unification more than they do the Americans or anyone else) and the Southern governments seem to be quite behind the idea, what with their Ministry of Unification and so on, a unified Korea is the only likely future if things go bad. No Chinese puppet government in the North would be enough to stop the tsunami of freedom, and there's still families in the South that have relatives in the North, separated by the war.
China holds most of the cards here, the only question remains what they want, and what they are willing to stomach; both to their own population and to the international arena. China doesn't want millions of impoverished Koreans opening up it's doors, and it is trying to figure out how to get rid of them. But don't think that if they sincerely wanted to keep the North in their pocket forever, they couldn't do so: they could, they just realize they'd have to invest more then they are willing to, which currently isn't much.
Post by: Owlbread on December 16, 2013, 12:29:35 am
That isn't too surprising, but the South doesn't want to. I mean, it'd be like German reunification on Hard, nay, Insane mode (Kim Jong Un mode). It's East Germany's problems multiplied, economic, social, etc. Minute the government collapses (and, crucially, Chinese funding is cut off) North Korea is Somalia with snow and a secular militia in charge instead. The sheer social, economic, political changes required boggles the mind. I want them together as much as you do, but I can see why the South (and China, for many of the same reasons) is reluctant.
I have never seen anything to show that "the South" is reluctant to unify, rather, unification is something of a priority. I've seen Southern people saying that they're concerned that it'll really damage the Southern economy, but the governments remain very much in favour of unification and that would be the word on people's lips if all hell breaks loose. This is just something the South has to stomach though, it'll be painful and it will rock the economy but it just has to happen.
Quote
If China wanted to, they could go Putin and simply annex the whole fucking place, and not a damn thing could be done (the US certainly isn't going to start WWIII over it).
China annexing a part of Korea (that's what we're talking about here) would be the deathknell for all successful Chinese foreign policy. Ever. If they did that they really wouldn't give a damn about anybody else and could comfortably become a pariah, when in fact the entire Chinese economy depends on people buying their stuff. Being a pariah and subject to sanctions is unwise if your economy is set up like that.
Quote
If China wanted to, they could set it up under some other, more Chinese-like dictator, and modernize it as a vassal state that would be grateful to their new (old really) Chinese overlords.
This is more likely but the moment the word "unification" starts popping up, no Chinese-like dictator will be able to stop that tidal wave. You've seen the Arab Spring, you know what happens when things get into full swing, not like in Bahrain or Algeria but when people really rise up they can't be stopped without massive bloodshed.
Quote
If China wanted to, they could kill half the population within months simply by not doing anything and watching the fireworks.
If China did this the finger would be pointing squarely at China and we're right back to option one. The Chinese would be internationally reviled for allowing this to happen.
Quote
If China wanted to, they could simply send the Un to the UN (and probably the Hague) and give the North to the South over the threshold.
This is the most likely course of action I think, and the most sensible if China wants to rehabilitate itself within the international community.
Quote
If China wanted to, they could force the North into an suicidal attack against the South, and America if it is in reach, and kill millions.
This is a ridiculous option that would be even worse than just sitting back. If they force any kind of attack then yes it would be WW3, or whatever the step below that is. Cold war perhaps.
Quote
China holds most of the cards here, the only question remains what they want, and what they are willing to stomach; both to their own population and to the international arena. China doesn't want millions of impoverished Koreans opening up it's doors, and it is trying to figure out how to get rid of them. But don't think that if they sincerely wanted to keep the North in their pocket forever, they couldn't do so: they could, they just realize they'd have to invest more then they are willing to, which currently isn't much.
China holds most of the cards but they have few realistic options. They can choose to support the Northern government until it becomes completely untenable, in which case they sort the situation out themselves (invasion) and reform the government/install a puppet as we've discussed, or just bite the bullet and give the North to the South. If they sincerely wanted to keep the North in their pocket forever they'd be completely delusional because the North is existing on borrowed time. We're talking about a government that will blow their own generals up with mortars in public executions to make examples of them - trying to reform that mess is an exercise in futility.
Remember, Putin's annexation policy only worked in Chechnya because nobody really cared about the Chechens except Gamsakhurdian Georgia and Estonia. And John McCain. They're just Muslims anyway (who cares about those weirdos and their beards and gold teeth) from a country nobody's heard of, plus they were often Islamists and terrorists and anything is better than Islamic extremism, right? Even totalitarian, dictatorial, corrupt puppet-regimes with institutionalised brutal torture, disappearances, execution, sexual abuse and religious dogma. I'm sure. Those "monkeys" couldn't run their own country anyway, they're too crazy. I mean, it's not like they're human beings, right? North Korea on the other hand is not Chechnya, it is half of an ancient nation known to practically everyone and is very much in the public eye. Annexation would simply not be possible. Even the supposedly ambivalent South would be in uproar over that one. No Southern government would agree to half of their nation being annexed by anyone.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2013, 12:39:04 am
Post by: Descan on December 16, 2013, 12:40:21 am
Post by: Owlbread on December 16, 2013, 12:43:16 am
The Arab Spring was kind of a failure. Like... 4 different countries went through it, out of 10+ Arab countries. One is still in a civil war (Syria), one's gone through 3+ different governments in the last year (Egypt), one is maybe going to split in half in the coming years (Libya), and the last one is the only one that kinda-sorta-maybe went okay. (Tunisia)
The Arab Spring was a dismal failure, or perhaps a big shit sandwich for the world to bite into that we've had coming for years. My point was though that once things really got going, as it did in Syria, Egypt and Libya, the tide just couldn't be stopped. Change had to happen, the extent to which that change has been successful remains to be seen, and though it doesn't have a good prognosis the point is that the change was unstoppable. North Korea's collapse will be like that I think.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2013, 12:53:34 am
The Arab Spring was kind of a failure. Like... 4 different countries went through it, out of 10+ Arab countries. One is still in a civil war (Syria), one's gone through 3+ different governments in the last year (Egypt), one is maybe going to split in half in the coming years (Libya), and the last one is the only one that kinda-sorta-maybe went okay. (Tunisia)I think this is a viewpoint that lacks perspective, and it really shouldn't, because it can be linked back pretty easily to the original Spring: 1848 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848).
Revolutions all over Europe! The end of oppression and monarchy! Yeah! And they all lost. All of them. Of course, these days we know how important 1848 really was in the end. Nobody would call it a failure in the way that people call the Arab Spring a failure. It was the massive shift in European society, the primary sign that the old order had entered terminal decline. Even though the old order won the actual fighting, they had no chance afterwards.
I think this is the same, and hell, this is turning out a lot better. Tunisia is going pretty great by the standards of a young democracy. Egypt is simmering, but not over. But more important than anything else is the change in mindset. The first revolt is the hardest to start, and now that this has happened there isn't exactly anybody living in the region who can truthfully claim that things never change in their societies, or that popular uprising is impossible.
Post by: Strife26 on December 16, 2013, 01:52:42 am
That isn't too surprising, but the South doesn't want to. I mean, it'd be like German reunification on Hard, nay, Insane mode (Kim Jong Un mode). It's East Germany's problems multiplied, economic, social, etc. Minute the government collapses (and, crucially, Chinese funding is cut off) North Korea is Somalia with snow and a secular militia in charge instead. The sheer social, economic, political changes required boggles the mind. I want them together as much as you do, but I can see why the South (and China, for many of the same reasons) is reluctant.
I have never seen anything to show that "the South" is reluctant to unify, rather, unification is something of a priority. I've seen Southern people saying that they're concerned that it'll really damage the Southern economy, but the governments remain very much in favour of unification and that would be the word on people's lips if all hell breaks loose. This is just something the South has to stomach though, it'll be painful and it will rock the economy but it just has to happen.
You have a very interesting definition of rock, in this case.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 16, 2013, 02:50:03 am
That might not actually be such a good idea. Massive resource export has a tendency to damage the manufacturing sector, which is the cornerstone of South Korea's economy.Unification would probably bring the % of Koreans in poverty waaay up. We don't have enough jobs as it is! :DThat said, NK has a lot of natural resources and room to sprawl that SK doesn't currently have. That's an easy way to create lots and lots of jobs quickly.
Post by: DJ on December 16, 2013, 03:35:51 am
Post by: Sheb on December 16, 2013, 03:40:54 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 16, 2013, 03:50:27 am
Post by: Duuvian on December 16, 2013, 05:28:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 16, 2013, 05:37:54 am
I don't see why more resources for them to use would encourage them to leave.It's the Dutch disease.
In short: More resource export => Positive trade balance => Value of domestic currency rises => Increased costs, decreased profits. ((Because wages are payed in domestic currency, but income is foreign currency))
Also: More jobs in mining sector* => Less unemployement => Higher wages => Higher costs.
*The influx of cheap North Korean labour might mitigate this, but overall they don't have the education nor trained personal to perform a variety of needed tasks.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on December 16, 2013, 05:49:14 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 16, 2013, 05:51:45 am
Post by: Sheb on December 16, 2013, 06:59:10 am
O regular amnesties from financial crimes.
There is no reason they cannot re-industrialise the north.
Post by: Skyrunner on December 16, 2013, 10:28:20 am
The government cannot armtwist the jaebul anymore.
Post by: Owlbread on December 16, 2013, 11:06:36 am
I think China's PR concerns are overestimated. It could nuke Korea and USA still wouldn't install economic sanctions against it, simply because USA's economy would completely collapse if China suddenly stopped being a trade partner.
I think China's power is often overestimated. They are as impotent as the USA, and depend entirely on foreigners buying their products at very low prices. China is an exporter, if people did not import from China then their economy would crash.
Post by: Sheb on December 16, 2013, 11:08:51 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2013, 04:51:34 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 16, 2013, 05:20:46 pm
Anyway, it seems like the debate "Kim-Jong Un: crazy, or crazy like a fox?" has been answered: He isn't too clever for us too follow, but simply too insane. It worries me, but frankly I sorta expected. The question now is how much he is influenced by the saner people around him, a worrying one given the recent purge.
Post by: Lagslayer on December 16, 2013, 06:21:38 pm
The question now is how much he is influenced by the saner people around him, a worrying one given the recent purge.My guess would be "not enough".
Post by: mainiac on December 16, 2013, 10:21:21 pm
Unification would probably bring the % of Koreans in poverty waaay up. We don't have enough jobs as it is! :D
While a unified Korea would obviously have a higher poverty rate than South Korea right now, the poverty rate in South Korea would improve massively through unification.
Economics is in many ways a game of diminishing returns. We all know that it's good to invest in the future, in new industries, new technology. But actually knowing what is going to pan out is usually pretty difficult (there are exceptions where the stumbling blocks are just political or organizational, but I digress). But what a unification situation would offer is a huge, massive set of investments that you know are going to be profitable. And these investments will overwhelmingly be handled by Korean conglomerates. That shifts the aggregate demand and the interest curves in an enviable way, both lowering the already low South Korean natural unemployment rate and giving the central bank more ability to swiftly correct recessions when they occur. So the result is that South Korea would have low unemployment and bouts of unemployment from recessions would be shorter.
That's not to say that things would be completely good for working class Koreans. Although the new economy should in theory increase their purchasing power, it's not unreasonable to be cautious and consider that might not pan out. Namely the increased economic power of the conglomerates might broaden inequality and make the current South Korean middle class worse off then before in a pessimistic scenario. But even in that pessimistic scenario, it's probably going to be good news for the current low end wage earners in South Korea. Even if their purchasing power stagnated, they would be enjoying a strong job market throughout. And when you are talking about poverty, it's unemployment and job insecurity that are key. It's fear of unemployment that drive low wage workers to accept an erosion in wages. It's bouts of unemployment that put people in the various cycles of poverty that the sociologists talk about. So even in a pessimistic scenario where the middle class gets squeezed, things probably are going to look good on the poverty front.
Post by: Duuvian on December 17, 2013, 03:17:19 am
I don't see why more resources for them to use would encourage them to leave.It's the Dutch disease.
In short: More resource export => Positive trade balance => Value of domestic currency rises => Increased costs, decreased profits. ((Because wages are payed in domestic currency, but income is foreign currency))
Also: More jobs in mining sector* => Less unemployement => Higher wages => Higher costs.
*The influx of cheap North Korean labour might mitigate this, but overall they don't have the education nor trained personal to perform a variety of needed tasks.
I don't know if that's set in stone, for example Detroit is known for automobile production because it's close to the iron mines in the Upper Peninsula via Great Lakes shipping. While it's true Detroit's industry has been in a decline, I don't think it's due to less unemployment and the domestic currency has been inflating rather than increasing in value.
If there are resources in North Korea, and South Korea has an industrial base and ways to ship those resources to the factories, I don't think it would be bad for those factories' owners and the country they are in if it replaces or reduces resource importation.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 17, 2013, 03:39:20 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on December 17, 2013, 04:26:14 am
It only works for nations, and for massive resource exports. The existence of an iron mine isn't enough. The massive amounts of oil, minerals and other metals in North Korea are.
best korea has no oil. (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2244.html)
south korea either didn't even prospect for it or has the results of said prospecting a state secret i don't know
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 17, 2013, 04:32:55 am
Anyway, it does have massive quantities of rare earth and other minerals.
Post by: Duuvian on December 17, 2013, 06:23:56 am
It only works for nations, and for massive resource exports. The existence of an iron mine isn't enough. The massive amounts of oil, minerals and other metals in North Korea are.
Why couldn't new corporations be formed in South Korea (or the North) that would utilize the resource wealth of North Korea without creating the situation you describe? If they really want to be protectionist, they withold their resources from export or only extract for their own needs for production. Maybe even do tariffs, though that's just asking for some country to tariff your finished product instead of the resource probably.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 17, 2013, 06:26:06 am
Using them solely for domestic use would make them mostly useless.
Post by: Duuvian on December 17, 2013, 06:28:50 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 17, 2013, 06:38:47 am
Besides, rare earth's aren't exactly, well, rare.
Post by: Duuvian on December 17, 2013, 06:56:03 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 17, 2013, 07:05:22 am
However, that is unable to happen again after China inflated rare earth prices massively a few years ago by cutting supply. Now you got several strategic mines in some countries.
Post by: mainiac on December 17, 2013, 08:10:31 am
Whether or not North Korea has natural resources is pretty irrelevant to this. It would be like the natural gas boon in the US state of Pennsylvania. Yes it lead to a boom in 3 rural counties that were lightly populated, but that was irrelevant to a state of Pennsylvania's size. What's much more important is the population and the investments in economy wide capital stocks, real estate, inventories and most importantly of all human capital. Compared to those the heavy machinery needed to mine billions in natural gas is a drop in the bucket.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 17, 2013, 10:42:12 am
Alright, that makes sense then. I was misled by the name. You would think eventually they would be called something else if it's no longer accurate.
It's rare earth because of the difficulty of separating and refining said materials.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 17, 2013, 12:14:04 pm
Oh boy, here we go. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/16/kim-jong-uns-former-classmates-say-he-really-is-dangerous-unpredictable-prone-to-violence/)
Interestingly, according to Reuters, a former student of the boarding school where KJU used to study (who also used to be friends with KJU) described him as "a very intelligent and a good student" (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/19/us-korea-north-swiss-idUSTRE7BI14920111219)
Quote
He was a good friend. He was very quiet. He was a nice guy.
Washington Post and CNN describe KJU as a psycho in order to justify American policies towards North Korea. Today madman Kim Jong-un decides to purge some officials, tomorrow he'll probably launch missiles at America, for sure.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 17, 2013, 12:44:04 pm
Considering what he's done so far and is continuing to do, Washington Post's description of Unkimbo looks far more in line with reality than Reuters.Oh boy, here we go. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/16/kim-jong-uns-former-classmates-say-he-really-is-dangerous-unpredictable-prone-to-violence/)
Interestingly, according to Reuters, a former student of the boarding school where KJU used to study (who also used to be friends with KJU) described him as "a very intelligent and a good student" (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/19/us-korea-north-swiss-idUSTRE7BI14920111219)QuoteHe was a good friend. He was very quiet. He was a nice guy.
Washington Post and CNN describe KJU as a psycho in order to justify American policies towards North Korea. Today madman Kim Jong-un decides to purge some officials, tomorrow he'll probably launch missiles at America, for sure.
Besides, there's also the aspect that this guy was friends with him. Most people are nice towards their friends, even fucking lunatics.
And seriously Guardian, the major news networks don't give a shit about helping the US government. They only care about making money and continuing to be successful.
Post by: Sergarr on December 17, 2013, 12:46:57 pm
helping the US government=>
making money and continuing to be successful.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 17, 2013, 12:54:57 pm
Don't even (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak) bullshit me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers) What sells better than controversy? You think the government and the people who make it up like being exposed and reported upon like that? The news are not controlled by the government, and if they are, whomever is pulling the strings is doing a shit job.helping the US government=>making money and continuing to be successful.
Post by: mainiac on December 17, 2013, 01:49:34 pm
Don't even (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak) bullshit me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers) What sells better than controversy? You think the government and the people who make it up like being exposed and reported upon like that? The news are not controlled by the government, and if they are, whomever is pulling the strings is doing a shit job.helping the US government=>making money and continuing to be successful.
+1.
Anyone who thinks the Washington Post is a mouthpiece for the US government should read the coverage of Syria. One day the US is supporting child soldier using rebels, the next they are starving rebels to death by failing to deliver aid. There are tons of issues with the Washington Post (in particular the incestuous relationship between some reporters and some government and political sources) but that doesn't mean you can make up anything you want about them.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 17, 2013, 02:50:59 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 17, 2013, 04:29:02 pm
For example, when US President Barack Obama was considering launching a bombing campaign against Syria, the public opinion in the United States was generally against it. In response, major American television channels, newspapers and news sites ramped up the reports about the war crimes reportedly committed by Bashar Assad against the Syrian people and how the Syrian people suffer because of Bashar Assad. BBC also did the same thing when the British parliament was discussing Britain's participation in the American armed operation.
In my opinion Western news sources are not directly controlled by the Western governments. The Guardian's coverage of Snowden's leaks and the British government's backlash against the newspaper shows that they can operate independently. However, it's possible that owners of some newspapers or news channels, especially those affiliated with certain political forces periodically receive recommendations from people lobbying for particular political actions about what should be published and what should not be published. I wouldn't disregard such a possibility because some of the mass media exposed the US government's wrongdoings several times.
Post by: Owlbread on December 17, 2013, 04:35:01 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 17, 2013, 04:38:31 pm
Unfortunately, if you accept that x news organization is acting as an agent of social change, you kind of have to accept all of them.
Post by: Lagslayer on December 17, 2013, 04:43:05 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 17, 2013, 05:24:01 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 17, 2013, 07:35:52 pm
Even with the desire for profits put into account, a lot of Western mass media still try to manipulate public opinion.That's pretty anecdotal though. I'd like to see a comparison of "friendly v. unfriendly news coverage in the US" study, if it existed.
For example, when US President Barack Obama was considering launching a bombing campaign against Syria, the public opinion in the United States was generally against it. In response, major American television channels, newspapers and news sites ramped up the reports about the war crimes reportedly committed by Bashar Assad against the Syrian people and how the Syrian people suffer because of Bashar Assad. BBC also did the same thing when the British parliament was discussing Britain's participation in the American armed operation.
Post by: tahujdt on December 17, 2013, 09:56:23 pm
I don't think anyone here can deny that Kim-Jong Un is very, very loud, and fond of statements of dubious sanity; if required I'm sure I can supply a few. Furthermore, most US citizens are already thoroughly under the impression that he is completely mad. Given these, it really wouldn't make sense to print a article like this as a tool of the US. I mean the idea that he could be a calculating puppet-master, while more flattering, wouldn't serve to make US citizens any more positive about the North and Kimmy dear, and might even make them more scared of the loud man on the nukes.So he could be just Kim Jong Dumbledore?
Post by: Another on December 18, 2013, 06:45:10 am
...This is not exactly what you asked for but this is a study that shows that significant number of US writers self-censor on political matters because of fear of surveillance (http://pen.org/chilling-effects).Even with the desire for profits put into account, a lot of Western mass media still try to manipulate public opinion.That's pretty anecdotal though. I'd like to see a comparison of "friendly v. unfriendly news coverage in the US" study, if it existed.
For example, when US President Barack Obama was considering launching a bombing campaign against Syria, the public opinion in the United States was generally against it. In response, major American television channels, newspapers and news sites ramped up the reports about the war crimes reportedly committed by Bashar Assad against the Syrian people and how the Syrian people suffer because of Bashar Assad. BBC also did the same thing when the British parliament was discussing Britain's participation in the American armed operation.
That one is of course related mostly to post-Snowden era. Fox-"we can legally deliberately lie"-News is not helping US media reputation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies) for a much longer time though.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 18, 2013, 07:14:30 am
Even with the desire for profits put into account, a lot of Western mass media still try to manipulate public opinion.Because doing so is highly profitable. Just look at Murdoch lobbying Obama [hilarious because amongst his massive media Empire, fox news is a part of it] to get the FCC to “streamline and modernize media ownership rules," in order to legally expand his media monopoly to more than what is currently legally possible. 5 corporations own almost all of America's media, and all of them want to be best buds with the people who can give them the monies. The government is otherwise all too happy to accept donations and public opinion boosts.
Post by: mainiac on December 18, 2013, 08:51:58 am
Even with the desire for profits put into account, a lot of Western mass media still try to manipulate public opinion.
For example, when US President Barack Obama was considering launching a bombing campaign against Syria, the public opinion in the United States was generally against it. In response, major American television channels, newspapers and news sites ramped up the reports about the war crimes reportedly committed by Bashar Assad against the Syrian people and how the Syrian people suffer because of Bashar Assad. BBC also did the same thing when the British parliament was discussing Britain's participation in the American armed operation.
If they had been silent, you would have criticized them for that.
They are reporting on these stories because they are hot topics. Ask yourself, what would the world look like if your premise was completely false, would there be any perceptible difference between the world as we see it today if "the media" was completely apathetic? Talk about those issues, don't make a fallacious ridden grab bag of guilt by association.
By the standard that you indict the Syrian media, my brother is also seeking to advance an imperialist agenda of the US. After all, he started talking about Syria just before Obama did. Is anyone who talked about Syrian brutality an imperialist?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 18, 2013, 12:09:51 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on December 22, 2013, 04:57:16 pm
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/big/000/050/000/mind%20blown.gif)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2013, 04:59:55 pm
Also they consistently threaten this stuff often. Be worried when the Norks grow silent.
Post by: Owlbread on December 22, 2013, 06:06:23 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 22, 2013, 06:42:02 pm
North Korea "threatens to strike South without notice." (http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/12/20/north-korea-threatens-to-strike-south-without-notice/)
Quote
Tensions between North and South Korea kicked up a notch after a threatening fax was sent from Pyongyang to Seoul on a special communications line between the two rival capitals.
Ooo. I'm surprised they even still use fax machines.. but I guess that's why SK has that 'special communication line' [old terrible communication lines NK can't update] we hear so much about. Probably right next to a rotary phone.
Another thing:
Quote from: from the 'article'
Kim Jong-Il recently ordered the execution of his uncle Jang Song-Thaek in order to consolidate his grip on power.
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/big/000/050/000/mind%20blown.gif)
Anarcho-communist zombies!
Excuse you, article writer? I know this isn't a journalist, not one of them is this much of a moron.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2013, 06:43:18 pm
Technically possible with Nork logic. Remember? Officially, he isn't dead. Therefore, no need to zombie. HE IS ETERNALQuote from: from the 'article'Kim Jong-Il recently ordered the execution of his uncle Jang Song-Thaek in order to consolidate his grip on power.That zombie bastard!
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 22, 2013, 06:44:35 pm
Funny thing is, according to the article, Funk Master-Il has an Uncle-Brother.
Post by: MrWillsauce on December 22, 2013, 06:47:30 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2013, 06:55:22 pm
Him being an elf would explain his immortality. I always knew something was fishy about those North Korean dictators, but elves! The situation is more dire than anyone could have anticipated."South Korea, you know we love your debauched pursuit for wealth, your black market phones are just wonderful, but you know? We'd like you to join the rest of civilized best Korea in protecting the trees, so how about we let you only murder 3 trees this year? No?
A SEA OF FIRE ON YOU
FUKEN CAPITALIST PIG DISGUSTING"
The North Koreans have brought the full force of their lands against you.
*Kim Il-Sung shows up leading the North Korean unicorn cavalry*
Post by: MrWillsauce on December 22, 2013, 06:59:33 pm
Well, I think wooden spears are going to be fairly useless against guns.I think guns are going to be fairly useless against the indomitable North Korean spirit!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2013, 07:00:27 pm
Well, I think wooden spears are going to be fairly useless against guns.Implying gun > UNIKOREAN
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MaximumZero on December 22, 2013, 07:01:10 pm
Him being an elf would explain his immortality. I always knew something was fishy about those North Korean dictators, but elves! The situation is more dire than anyone could have anticipated.Time for the orbital magma cannon.
Post by: Redzephyr01 on December 22, 2013, 08:10:35 pm
Kim Il-Sung shows up leading the North Korean unicorn cavalrySigged
Post by: Sheb on December 23, 2013, 02:18:55 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 23, 2013, 02:22:42 am
So North Korea notified the South they're going to strike without notice?Through the force of Glorious Paradox, Benevolent Leader Kim Jong-Un shall retroactively annihilate the southern rebels and their Imperialist Tyrant Masters.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 23, 2013, 02:57:01 am
Ooo. I'm surprised they even still use fax machines.. but I guess that's why SK has that 'special communication line' [old terrible communication lines NK can't update] we hear so much about. Probably right next to a rotary phone.Actually, they do use rotary phones .
Post by: misko27 on December 24, 2013, 04:36:41 pm
Business Insider article on the same. (http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-jong-un-uncle-execution-2013-12)
Now I'm off to sig a few things.
Post by: tahujdt on December 26, 2013, 02:25:52 pm
Sound more like the elves from 8-bit Theater.Him being an elf would explain his immortality. I always knew something was fishy about those North Korean dictators, but elves! The situation is more dire than anyone could have anticipated."South Korea, you know we love your debauched pursuit for wealth, your black market phones are just wonderful, but you know? We'd like you to join the rest of civilized best Korea in protecting the trees, so how about we let you only murder 3 trees this year? No?
A SEA OF FIRE ON YOU
FUKEN CAPITALIST PIG DISGUSTING"
The North Koreans have brought the full force of their lands against you.
*Kim Il-Sung shows up leading the North Korean unicorn cavalry*
Post by: Just Some Guy on December 27, 2013, 09:52:38 pm
Get out the popcorn. IT HAS BEGUN!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2013, 10:07:21 pm
Execution by AA firing squad.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 27, 2013, 10:09:23 pm
Execution by AA firing squad.
Execution by AA firing squad.
Wait, what? This sounds horribly awesome. What's happening?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on December 27, 2013, 10:16:16 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2013, 10:18:51 pm
AA as in anti-armour, or anti-air?And so it was that Supreme Leader Kim-Jong Un did sacrifice his private jet, the only working plane in all the Motherland, to properly and justly execute the traitor scum.
Post by: Rose on December 28, 2013, 05:57:16 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 28, 2013, 07:21:14 am
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 28, 2013, 07:33:34 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 28, 2013, 08:07:42 am
Post by: Owlbread on December 28, 2013, 10:00:21 am
Post by: DJ on December 28, 2013, 11:34:36 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 28, 2013, 11:38:34 am
Kim jong-un's got style, you've got to give him that. Never mind bullets in the back of the head or something like other totalitarian states, he literally wipes his enemies off the face of the earth with mortars and AA guns.Well, IIRC, Kim ordered that there would be no trace left.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 28, 2013, 12:36:37 pm
AA as in anti-armour, or anti-air?AA only means Anti-air or air-to air, AT would be anti-armour.
Or did a load of people drive into him?
Kim is literally using heavy ordnance to execute traitors. There wouldn't even be a body to recover.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on December 28, 2013, 03:55:05 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 28, 2013, 04:01:14 pm
Who the hell uses AA guns anymore? We have supersonic jets. They'd really only be useful for helicopters. Is the NK still rocking ww2-era military infrastructure? If that's the case, then still, holy shit, because those are large caliber rounds in any case. I'm going to guess there's almost nothing left of them.
Yes, NK is known/suspected to have plenty of ww2/cold war gear, mostly artillery pieces around the DMZ. As you correctly point out, they aint for shooting at jet fighters. One scene from Private Ryan springs to mind, as does the old Soviet ZSU (whick NK has at least a few hundred of, in different variants, either given by the old USSR or older turrets mounted on Chinese tank chassis), which would be a terrifying anti infantry platform.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 28, 2013, 04:03:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 28, 2013, 05:06:53 pm
Who the hell uses AA guns anymore? We have supersonic jets. They'd really only be useful for helicopters. Is the NK still rocking ww2-era military infrastructure? If that's the case, then still, holy shit, because those are large caliber rounds in any case. I'm going to guess there's almost nothing left of them.Shoot people, pray and shoot missiles, execute traitors...
Post by: Flying Dice on December 28, 2013, 05:36:04 pm
The AA thing sounds like BS to me, TBH. Kind of reminds me of the fake news items about executions in Iraq using plastic grinders and/or suicide bomber vests.You're comparing stories about a relatively sane authoritarian state executing people in bizarre ways to stories about possibly the craziest living dictator executing people with military hardware we know he has? This does not strike me as abnormal at all, at least by Lil' Kim standards.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 28, 2013, 06:32:36 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 28, 2013, 07:10:01 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 28, 2013, 07:12:43 pm
As far as I know, a lot of recent reports of North Korean atrocities cited by Western news agencies were originally published in the South Korean newspaper "Chosun Ilbo", whose owners and editors apparently belong to staunchly pro-American circles in the South Korean society (I'm not sure about it, though).*throws up hands in befuddlement*
So do you know or not?
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 29, 2013, 02:41:42 pm
Spoiler: No, I dont know either... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 29, 2013, 02:44:03 pm
So this probably belongs here...WhatSpoiler: No, I dont know either... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowscynthe on December 29, 2013, 02:47:09 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on December 29, 2013, 05:34:54 pm
Kim being chased by dwarf triplets, near as I can tell. UhSo this probably belongs here...WhatSpoiler: No, I dont know either... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Slayerhero90 on December 29, 2013, 10:17:18 pm
No, too thin to be dwarves.Kim being chased by dwarf triplets, near as I can tell. UhSo this probably belongs here...WhatSpoiler: No, I dont know either... (click to show/hide)
Too short to be humans...
eeeeeelllllllvvvvvvveeeeesssss
Post by: Just Some Guy on December 30, 2013, 05:19:29 pm
Post by: Tsuchigumo550 on December 30, 2013, 05:59:27 pm
kim's a dwarf
those are ladykobolds.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 30, 2013, 06:42:37 pm
those are ladykobolds.They're trying to steal his tongue-brush.
Post by: IronyOwl on December 30, 2013, 09:45:01 pm
Yeah. I think the insanity angle is for the most part a media spin, nonwithstanding that schoolmate's testimony. IMO it's like when they ask the neighbours of serial killers if he wasn't a "wee bit odd" beforehand, so I don't give it much credit...That still doesn't explain what's so crazy about an over-the-top dictator using heavy weapons to execute someone.
He think so but isn't positive.As far as I know, a lot of recent reports of North Korean atrocities cited by Western news agencies were originally published in the South Korean newspaper "Chosun Ilbo", whose owners and editors apparently belong to staunchly pro-American circles in the South Korean society (I'm not sure about it, though).*throws up hands in befuddlement*
So do you know or not?
I think.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 31, 2013, 01:06:23 am
So this probably belongs here...I wonder how much it costs...Spoiler: No, I dont know either... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Max White on December 31, 2013, 01:46:58 am
Post by: Just Some Guy on December 31, 2013, 03:57:03 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on December 31, 2013, 09:12:04 pm
December 24 is now Kimmas, (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?num=11309&cataId=nk01500) and China is plotting with Nice Korea against Dear Leader. (http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?num=11306&cataId=nk00100)Dafuq did I just read?
Post by: Just Some Guy on January 01, 2014, 12:16:30 am
Should old cease-fires be forgot and eradicate mankind...
Post by: Just Some Guy on January 02, 2014, 10:52:28 am
Post by: Antioch on January 05, 2014, 08:11:54 pm
Post by: Just Some Guy on January 05, 2014, 09:59:04 pm
Turns out, It was propaganda all along. Chinese propaganda. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/05/north-korea-s-monstrous-murder-methods.html)
It's happening, guys.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 06, 2014, 07:47:47 am
It's happening, guys.For the better, or worse?
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 06, 2014, 09:25:48 am
Hey guys... remember how Jang Song Thaek was torn a part by dogs?
Turns out, It was propaganda all along. Chinese propaganda. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/05/north-korea-s-monstrous-murder-methods.html)
It's happening, guys.
Quote
Yet the most damning evidence is that the December 12 report appeared in Wen Wei Po, a Hong Kong newspaper with a low reputation for reliability
Nah, it's not happening. It hasn't been published in official Chinese state media. Suspicious newspapers from Hong Kong don't count as state media.
It will only happen when Rénmín Rìbào (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Daily) starts featuring articles on the front page condemning North Korea.
Post by: Fniff on January 06, 2014, 04:43:43 pm
Really, no matter what way you do it, executing your own uncle is what power-mad dictators generally do. It wouldn't sound good if he had done it in the most painless way possible.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 06, 2014, 04:45:11 pm
On the other hand, NOT executing your uncle.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre)
Really, no matter what way you do it, executing your own uncle is what power-mad dictators generally do.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 08, 2014, 07:51:41 am
Post by: Sheb on January 08, 2014, 09:00:54 am
Post by: Sirus on January 08, 2014, 11:01:33 am
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 08, 2014, 11:31:02 am
Post by: Sheb on January 08, 2014, 12:15:02 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 08, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 08, 2014, 08:06:41 pm
I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.Should have watched the video. The CNN interviewer suggested exactly that, and Rodman defended the imprisonment instead.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 08, 2014, 08:10:44 pm
And furthermo-I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.Should have watched the video. The CNN interviewer suggested exactly that, and Rodman defended the imprisonment instead.
Wait.
I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.Should have watched the video. The CNN interviewer suggested exactly that, and Rodman defended the imprisonment instead.
I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.
I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason..dennislp3
dennis
You.
Post by: Xantalos on January 08, 2014, 08:12:14 pm
Wow
Post by: dennislp3 on January 08, 2014, 08:13:42 pm
on the "bright" side I do know that every American prisoner I have seen held captive and then released said that they were treated very well in NK custody...so I personally dont worry about the prisoners well being. I think if anything NK is flaunting its sovereign status and just showing the world they can do politically enflaming stuff without getting attacked.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 08, 2014, 08:14:18 pm
Post by: Descan on January 08, 2014, 08:16:36 pm
Post by: Xantalos on January 08, 2014, 08:16:58 pm
Also, sigged.And furthermo-I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.Should have watched the video. The CNN interviewer suggested exactly that, and Rodman defended the imprisonment instead.
Wait.I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.Should have watched the video. The CNN interviewer suggested exactly that, and Rodman defended the imprisonment instead.I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason..dennislp3
dennis
You.
Post by: Xantalos on January 08, 2014, 08:17:52 pm
The Rod-man goes to North Korea to get the prisoners, for he must feed. In return for the feast of American blood, the Rod-man brings with him nuclear material and thousands of tiny cakes to feed the mighty North Korean Michelin Man.Also sigged.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 08, 2014, 08:25:27 pm
The Rod-man goes to North Korea to get the prisoners, for he must feed. In return for the feast of American blood, the Rod-man brings with him nuclear material and thousands of tiny cakes to feed the mighty North Korean Michelin Man.-Third Book of the Rod, Chapter 12, Verse 52
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 04:17:00 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 09, 2014, 08:10:19 am
I think Dennis Rodman gets too much shit for no reason...he is practically the only "diplomat" that can actually get in and talk to the crazy bastard. He is doing what no one else is doing and at least talking to the guy. I think the mentality of "shun NK cause they are evil" is immature, stupid, hypocritical (on different levels) and pointless. I haven't seen the interview yet but I imagine he is in a bit of a tough spot where the better option is too look "crazy" and keep his friendship with NK. Standing up for Kim Jong-un might get him laughed at but I bet he is doing more to free any captive American than the government is doing.
Hello, Dennis Rodman! How's it going?
Post by: scriver on January 09, 2014, 12:28:03 pm
The Rod-man goes to North Korea to get the prisoners, for he must feed. In return for the feast of American blood, the Rod-man brings with him nuclear material and thousands of tiny cakes to feed the mighty North Korean Michelin Man.Also sigged.
I don't see either of the quotes in your signature.
Post by: Haspen on January 09, 2014, 12:30:13 pm
I don't see either of the quotes in your signature.
Xanty belongs to the Sigthread fanatics :P
Post by: Bauglir on January 09, 2014, 12:30:46 pm
Post by: scriver on January 09, 2014, 12:37:52 pm
Post by: Helgoland on January 09, 2014, 12:54:56 pm
Post by: Rose on January 09, 2014, 12:56:49 pm
It's at the bottom of his sig link. You need to click that. Please don't let this be you deliberately pointing out the difference between a sig link and a sig actual, and for the love of all things sacred don't let it be the start of a conversation about which is superior.
There's not much to discuss, really.
Sigthread is terrible.
Post by: Dutchling on January 09, 2014, 12:58:36 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on January 09, 2014, 01:05:00 pm
Especially since I have little sympathy for that prisoner guy. I mean, going to do missionary work in NK as an American? That's not courage, it's stupidity. It's sad for his family, but he had it coming.Hooray victim blaming?
It's one thing to say someone could've acted a bit smarter, it's another to blame them for being harmed by the actions of others.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 01:09:49 pm
Especially since I have little sympathy for that prisoner guy. I mean, going to do missionary work in NK as an American? That's not courage, it's stupidity. It's sad for his family, but he had it coming.Hooray victim blaming?
It's one thing to say someone could've acted a bit smarter, it's another to blame them for being harmed by the actions of others.
To be fair though. You don't go to one of the most paranoid and authoritarian countries in the world not expecting problems. I feel like there is an American mentality that if we just keep going to NK, and making an international incident out of what inevitably happens, that we're going to change NK. I have all the respect for missionary/humanitarian work, but sort of like being a soldier, you are signing up for the risk when you accept the task. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get him back. But I don't think hand-wringing is the appropriate response for anyone but his family.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2014, 01:16:09 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 09, 2014, 01:30:55 pm
Well, not really.Especially since I have little sympathy for that prisoner guy. I mean, going to do missionary work in NK as an American? That's not courage, it's stupidity. It's sad for his family, but he had it coming.Hooray victim blaming?
It's one thing to say someone could've acted a bit smarter, it's another to blame them for being harmed by the actions of others.
As an American (North Korean Arch-enemy) you're going to an autocratic, propagandist state, with the intention of undermining the state religion (Ak, Kim-Yong's being the divine leaders). I mean, you should've seen this coming.
Post by: kaijyuu on January 09, 2014, 01:39:23 pm
The very definition of victim blaming is placing responsibility for someone's bad actions on the target of their actions.
Post by: nenjin on January 09, 2014, 01:47:30 pm
Again, you can say he could've acted smarter and not gone and I won't dispute that, but any *blame* still resides entirely on NK.
The very definition of victim blaming is placing responsibility for someone's bad actions on the target of their actions.
So if a guy sticks his hand in a tiger's mouth, we're supposed to blame the tiger when he loses it? That's not an exact comparison, but depending on how you view NK, maybe it is. Again, I think this speaks to the Western concept that we should be able to go places and do our thing regardless of the place we're doing it, because we know we're in the right. So we take the moral high ground in situations we precipitated. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy because we have given ourselves the mandate to make the world a better place.
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 01:51:07 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 09, 2014, 01:55:05 pm
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 02:01:34 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 09, 2014, 02:16:04 pm
But that was a few days ago. Apparently the charge is something like "Threatening the state by spreading religious lies" or something like that. So yeah, apparently going to NK to spread things contrary to the official ideology ain't legal there, surprise, surprise.KCNA's report on his trial:
Quote
American Citizen Punished in DPRK
Pyongyang, May 2 (KCNA) -- A trial of Pae Jun Ho, an American citizen, took place held at the Supreme Court of the DPRK on April 30. He was arrested while committing hostile acts against the DPRK after entering Rason City as a tourist on Nov. 3 last year.
The Supreme Court sentenced him to 15 years of compulsory labor for this crime.
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 02:23:00 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2014, 02:51:58 pm
Post by: wierd on January 09, 2014, 03:04:10 pm
Why, just think what would happen if the people started questioning if Glorious Leader's dad HADN'T actually invented fusion? Why, there could be riots in the streets!
Glorious leader provides for the people! How could that terrible man lie about glorious leader like that?
(Feels sickened from entering that thought mode.)
Post by: Chaoswizkid on January 09, 2014, 03:11:39 pm
Again, you can say he could've acted smarter and not gone and I won't dispute that, but any *blame* still resides entirely on NK.
The very definition of victim blaming is placing responsibility for someone's bad actions on the target of their actions.
I don't think anyone's going "The NK are totally cool to do this, it's that darned missionary guy that brought this upon himself!" They're saying both "The NK is a horrible totalitarian state that oppresses people and unjustly (in the eyes of the world) imprisons people" and that "He really should have known better."
Self-preservationism is a thing, and when someone doesn't exercise it enough or ignores the obvious repercussions, I think it's fair to have people call them out on it.
Unless he didn't go there for missionary work and his primary goal was to actually bring to light human rights abuse and the like for real international response and change for the people. Then that guy took a big risk and he lost, which sucks because I would have been rooting for him.
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 03:36:33 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 09, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
What, you're actually rooting for that imperialist scumbag who smuggled a hard drive into Best Korea and wanted to pass off pictures of Americans drinking their monthly ration of molten snow as the actual image of how Glorious Leader treats his people, the ones who give their life and livelihood each and every day in order to bring destroy the very source of such imagery and reunite with their brethren in the south? He's not even deserving of a mortar round, I tell you. Were the Glorious Leader in charge of the whole world as it rightfully should be, you would have no reason to spout these lies as the Juche idea would not allow you such degenerate thoughts in the first place!
critical lack of praising best korea detected, applying quickfix
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2014, 05:07:46 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2014, 05:10:07 pm
The former also doesn't exactly have a great history in regards to the latter.
Post by: Owlbread on January 09, 2014, 05:25:07 pm
North Korea has an interesting history with regard to Christianity. Pyongyang was once called the "Jerusalem of the East" in the early 20th century. If the current regime had never taken over they'd probably be the main centre for Christianity in Korea and perhaps Asia.
Post by: Helgoland on January 09, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Post by: Bouchart on January 09, 2014, 10:32:45 pm
Post by: HAMMERMILL on January 10, 2014, 12:41:13 am
Best Korea has it's laws, Rodman and his merry band are there for basket-ball related reasons and also to indulge in the Norks upper management luxury.
This is like, ok, a basketball team from some university in Pakistan comes to the US and is friends with some congressman. They love basketball, but they decide to cry out in protest about a particular Muhhaed Malmuhg that is in GITMO. They turned basketball team into political syndacate, right then and there.
Well, that pos paki team will go flying back home right then and there, if it was a paki team in the USA.
Same with rodman. He can't comment on a US-Korean guy captured there.
Post by: Sheb on January 10, 2014, 12:45:03 am
Post by: wierd on January 10, 2014, 12:59:23 am
Post by: Flying Dice on January 10, 2014, 12:05:18 pm
Post by: Tsuchigumo550 on January 10, 2014, 09:10:55 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 10, 2014, 09:33:08 pm
Post by: kaijyuu on January 10, 2014, 09:38:26 pm
Ruined. Forever.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 10, 2014, 09:42:41 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 10, 2014, 09:43:51 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on January 11, 2014, 12:54:47 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 23, 2014, 08:26:56 am
BEST KOREA APPRECIATION STATION (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjMwOc2EBMA)
seriously (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJwlUNiJBQ) people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuPOrYAAUqA) why (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME) do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rht5SRmgkQ4) you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i33mKIcwfx8) not (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrXaSS2X_Ag) appreciate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rebkyixQXuQ) best (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjQlpwNqqyo) korea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLTVKV8dhp4) nowadays? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8FvewBGqOQ)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 23, 2014, 05:31:05 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 23, 2014, 05:40:48 pm
Quote
Last week, North Korea demanded South Korea and the US halt their annual military drill, calling it “a serious provocation.” If the drill isn’t stopped, North-South relations “will plunge into a deadlock and unimaginable holocaust,” Pyongyang said.Pull the other one, it has bells on.
“We sternly warn the US and the South Korean authorities to stop the dangerous military exercises which may push the situation on the peninsula and the north-south ties to a catastrophe,” said the spokesman for the Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea (CPRK) in a statement, reported [North Korea’s] KCNA state news.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 23, 2014, 05:51:58 pm
seriously (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJwlUNiJBQ)This style of this song and other North Korean pop songs of late 1980s and 1990s is similar to many Soviet pop songs of the late 1970s and early 1980s (like this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiioW5tcowo), for example).
why (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME)Soviet animation studios were producing cartoons with such art style and much better quality of animation in the late 1940s. North Korea has been releasing such cartoons in the 1970s and 1980s. A lack of resources, perhaps? :-\
Post by: Sheb on January 23, 2014, 05:52:20 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 23, 2014, 05:57:00 pm
Guardian GI, do you get all of your news from RT?I also frequently visit www.bbc.com/news
Post by: Strife26 on January 24, 2014, 07:08:24 am
Quote
The US and South Korea, which have shared the cost of hosting American soldiers since 1991, are planning to stage military exercises in late February. This year, the US plans to boost its military presence in South Korea, pledging to send another 800 troops in addition to those 28,000 which are already in the country.
This last sentence is the one to key in on, everyone.
Here's a question for everyone. In all seriousness, we know that North Korea is a terrible, authoritarian State. At what point does toppling it become justifiable in terms of North Korean, South Korean, and American materiel, lives, and money?
Post by: Dutchling on January 24, 2014, 07:09:14 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 24, 2014, 07:47:02 am
inb4oncetheyfindoilNorth Korea has large deposits of rare earth elements (link (http://www.mining.com/largest-known-rare-earth-deposit-discovered-in-north-korea-86139/)).
P.S. On a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I lol'd at your "Legendary+5 Protoukr" text under your goblin avatar. Are you trying to troll Ukrainian Ranger with this?
Post by: Dutchling on January 24, 2014, 07:50:43 am
P.S. On a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I lol'd at your "Legendary+5 Protoukr" text under your goblin avatar. Are you trying to troll Ukrainian Ranger with this?Nah, it's just my favourite class from this cool RPG (http://i.imgur.com/Oys3HsX.jpg)
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2014, 08:00:15 am
Given NK's limited finances, they would be unable to wage a sustained campaign, and it would not be in china's interests to provide monetary or material support for such actions. (China really still needs western financial backing to continue its heavy infrastructure overhauls it needs to become a 1st world power in the full sense.) If NK jumps the shark and bombs the bejeebus out of SK, (and thus pisses of the UN, and UN allied nations) china will be politically obligated to tell glorious leader to put his nuclear dildos away, or have his fat little bottom spanked.
Unfortunately, this position with china is temporary-- once china reaches said level of industrial and economic independence and empowerment, it wont need to pussyfoot around the issue anymore. Things can get very uncertain once that happens. I dont dare hazard a guess.
The best solution to the NK problem is to find ways to pierce glorious leader's cult of personality, and to inundate the North Koreans with counter-propaganda, so that they do an "Arab Spring" type thing. Internal civil instability will make it impossible for NK to conduct any kind of external violence, and stands a good chance of destroying their already resource starved government.
Why do you think Glorious Leader tries so hard with his Potemkin villages, profane quantities of insane propaganda, with a heavy frosting of gulags and totalitarian interment camps? He is absolutely paranoid of internal civil rebellion. (if he isnt, his military cabinet most certainly is.)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 24, 2014, 08:08:17 am
The names Protoukr and Ukr are frequently used by anti-Ukrainian Russians in order to ridicule Ukrainian history books that (allegedly) name the prehistoric people and Slavic tribes living on that territory Ukrainians. They also claim that Russians/Ruthenians of the 9th century Kievan Rus and the modern Russian people are one and the same people, even though actually modern Russians have as much in common with them as modern Germans have with the Germanic tribes from the times of the Roman Empire.P.S. On a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I lol'd at your "Legendary+5 Protoukr" text under your goblin avatar. Are you trying to troll Ukrainian Ranger with this?Nah, it's just my favourite class from this cool RPG (http://i.imgur.com/Oys3HsX.jpg)
Back on topic of Best Korea, North Korean government offers dialogue to South Korea and America in exchange for them stopping their annual joint military exercises, stating it is necessary to prevent "impending nuclear disasters". (http://rt.com/news/nkorea-urges-open-letter-south-110/)
For those allergic to totalitarian Russian websites, here's an article from BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25873269).
Post by: Pyre on January 24, 2014, 12:16:00 pm
US and SK: "Look at how awesome we are!"
NK: "You guys suck! I'm going to blow you all up!"
US, SK, Japan and China: "Shut up North Korea."
Post by: Dutchling on January 26, 2014, 09:30:42 am
Post by: Frumple on January 26, 2014, 10:34:16 am
Here's a question for everyone. In all seriousness, we know that North Korea is a terrible, authoritarian State. At what point does toppling it become justifiable in terms of North Korean, South Korean, and American materiel, lives, and money?As near as anyone can tell, s'far as I've been able to gather, the point doesn't exist. There's just nothing about NK that would make it worth the cost.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 26, 2014, 11:32:40 am
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 11:34:08 am
Post by: Dutchling on January 26, 2014, 11:35:58 am
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 11:39:14 am
Post by: Dutchling on January 26, 2014, 11:41:58 am
Post by: MaximumZero on January 26, 2014, 11:44:10 am
Though the best way to find out would not be sending infantry over the DMZ.That's what ICBMs are for, man. Though, I still want to challenge Kim Jong-Un to a cage fight in a bulletproof cage.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 26, 2014, 11:44:39 am
retroactively justify their entire nuclear program
it'll be the pinnacle of comedy
Post by: MaximumZero on January 26, 2014, 11:59:13 am
That was just a crazy dream I had. The crazy pipe dream that I have is to punch out Un.You don't want to challenge his potato?Though the best way to find out would not be sending infantry over the DMZ.That's what ICBMs are for, man. Though, I still want to challenge Kim Jong-Un to a cage fight in a bulletproof cage.
Post by: jimboo on January 26, 2014, 12:02:44 pm
In all seriousness, we know that North Korea is a terrible, authoritarian State. At what point does toppling it become justifiable in terms of North Korean, South Korean, and American materiel, lives, and money?
It doesn’t, ever. Standard ROI calculation while factoring in the Law of Unintended Consequences. Anyone who thinks American/UN forces are there only or even mostly as “peacekeepers” should revisit Eisenhower’s prophetic farewell address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY
53 years ago this week. One of the most important speeches of the 20th century from a President not beholden to any group or corporation.
Post by: misko27 on January 26, 2014, 12:28:30 pm
Etc, etc, etc. I think you are ignoring the fact that North Korea is insane, and could easily end millions of lives in a matter of days. Those soldiers are there because North Korea is dangerous, has been dangerous for quite some time, and will continue to be dangerous.In all seriousness, we know that North Korea is a terrible, authoritarian State. At what point does toppling it become justifiable in terms of North Korean, South Korean, and American materiel, lives, and money?
It doesn’t, ever. Standard ROI calculation while factoring in the Law of Unintended Consequences. Anyone who thinks American/UN forces are there only or even mostly as “peacekeepers” should revisit Eisenhower’s prophetic farewell address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY
53 years ago this week. One of the most important speeches of the 20th century from a President not beholden to any group or corporation.
Post by: Beast Tamer on January 26, 2014, 12:43:57 pm
Think of the situation as a staring contest between a benign psychopath and a rich government man. In any contest North Korea will lose, badly.
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 12:51:01 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 26, 2014, 12:54:47 pm
besides things just get sniped by drones nowadays
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on January 26, 2014, 01:00:06 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 01:10:00 pm
Post by: Beast Tamer on January 26, 2014, 01:14:02 pm
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with ror
True, but being able to take a detonation of TNT without any crippling damage does say a thing or two about its design. Al-Qaeda used to suicide bomb those tanks, nowadays they don't.
I'd suggest Kim Jong-Un to liberate Korean city Vladivostok. Then it will be not so one sided as against USA but mad enough to have a right to be called a crazy dictator
It's also speculated that the South Korean military is sufficiently powerful enough that they'd wipe the floor with the North before the US gets any major assets deployed as support. South Korea spends more on their military than the North has in GDP after all.
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 01:20:48 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2014, 01:21:31 pm
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with rorIEDs.
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 01:22:41 pm
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with rorIEDs.
[Irony]Ah, but Bush declared combat over... [/Irony]
Post by: misko27 on January 26, 2014, 02:59:44 pm
Seoul is a mere 35 miles from the border. North Korea is speculated to have about 13,000 artillery pieces in range, with an unknown number of missiles. 49% of South Koreans live within the Seoul metropolitan area.I'd suggest Kim Jong-Un to liberate Korean city Vladivostok. Then it will be not so one sided as against USA but mad enough to have a right to be called a crazy dictator
It's also speculated that the South Korean military is sufficiently powerful enough that they'd wipe the floor with the North before the US gets any major assets deployed as support. South Korea spends more on their military than the North has in GDP after all.
Now, in absolute terms, North Korea would cease to exist, but they are going to kill more people doing it then South Korea would like. Even forgetting that they have nuclear weapons, they threaten far more lives then people are willing to bargain.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 26, 2014, 03:02:26 pm
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with rorIraqi army tanks were either downgraded export versions of T-72 they got from the Soviet Union or domestically produced copies of downgraded export versions of T-72.
Since World War II, America has never been in combat with countries that has similarly powerful armies. It's easy to gang up on a country when you have total numerical and technological superiority (like Serbia, Iraq, Libya and almost Syria). Fighting a country like Russia or China, on the other hand, is not. M1A1 Abrams tanks will face much more serious resistance there than those Iraqi insurgents with IEDs...
Judging by recent trends in international politics and the fact that my country is in a military alliance with Russia, I will be able to personally see and even test (with a help of RPGs) the combat worthiness of Abrams tanks on the frontline at home in the relatively near future. I'll tell you the results once it happens, provided that Bay 12 Forums, the Internet or the USA would exist at that point. :P
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 03:17:20 pm
Judging by recent trends in international politics and the fact that my country is in a military alliance with Russia, I will be able to personally see and even test (with a help of RPGs) the combat worthiness of Abrams tanks on the frontline at home in the relatively near future. I'll tell you the results once it happens, provided that Bay 12 Forums, the Internet or the USA would exist at that point. :P
Unless the brave sons of Belarus liberate their land from Batka and his cabal before then.
But yes, I think most of us agree that although the North would fall swiftly they would take a lot of South Koreans with them. Any kind of conflict would be unthinkably destructive, let's hope it never comes to that.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on January 26, 2014, 03:44:20 pm
Quote
Fighting a country like Russia or China, on the other hand, is not. M1A1 Abrams tanks will face much more serious resistance there than those Iraqi insurgents with IEDs...I'd say British (Challengers IIs) German (Leopards), French(Leclercs), South Korean Tanks (K2s) Japanese (Type 10s) are nice opposition for Abrams. Russian tracked coffins with undertrained crews? Don't think so. Same for Chinese copies of Russian coffins with slightly better crews
More modern RPG and ATGM will be a problem, but not T-72 rebranded T-90
Post by: jimboo on January 26, 2014, 04:28:47 pm
1) didn’t the Iraqi’s show the Achilles’ heel of an Abrams was the necessarily large supply convoys? Those turbine suck up a lot of fuel. Korea maybe not so much, it’s small, but target the tanker trucks and it still becomes more or less Rommel’s problem.
2) didn’t the Mid-East wars of the 70s demonstrate that unit superiority would be trumped by tactics and terrain? (Golan Heights)
3) does anyone think there ever will be another major tank battle involving the US? That was NATO’s plan for countering the Warsaw Pact but, it was a long time ago. The US has now had a lot of practice using drones and Hellfires. They’re pretty precise. And if somebody comes up with something so top-protected that a Hellfire wouldn’t do the job, wouldn’t it be almost no time at all until there were simply larger drones launching something bigger?
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 04:31:40 pm
I'd say British (Challengers IIs) German (Leopards), French(Leclercs), South Korean Tanks (K2s) Japanese (Type 10s) are nice opposition for Abrams. Russian tracked coffins with undertrained crews? Don't think so. Same for Chinese copies of Russian coffins with slightly better crews
More modern RPG and ATGM will be a problem, but not T-72 rebranded T-90
Russian T-72s, T-80s and BMPs didn't last very long in 1994-1996. They really were just tracked coffins. What tanks are the North Koreans using at the moment?
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 26, 2014, 04:33:24 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 26, 2014, 04:58:55 pm
Judging by recent trends in international politics and the fact that my country is in a military alliance with Russia, I will be able to personally see and even test (with a help of RPGs) the combat worthiness of Abrams tanks on the frontline at home in the relatively near future. I'll tell you the results once it happens, provided that Bay 12 Forums, the Internet or the USA would exist at that point. :P
Unless the brave sons of Belarus liberate their land from Batka and his cabal before then.
It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, unless USA and their NATO buddies decide to follow in their German allies' footsteps and go on a quest to Russia through Belarusian territory under the pretext of liberating the oppressed Russian homosexuals, transsexuals, Siberian natives and oil deposits. Then I'll have to fight the tanks of American "liberators" in my homeland, just like mine and my people's ancestors fought tanks of German "liberators from Stalin's tyranny" more than 70 years ago.
Back on topic, I'm still convinced that unless there'll be a border incident that spirals out of control, North Korea will not start a war against the South. We can talk about how KJU is a psycho for a long time, but he won't commit such a suicidal decision as attacking the South - he's not a comic book villain, even though American mass media like to portray him as one in order to justify American military build-up in the region.
Also:
Russians tanks didn't last long during the First Chechen War not because of their inferiority. It happened because of the colossal incompetence of Russian generals that sent an armour column into Grozny without any infantry cover. Without infantry support, Russian tanks, APCs and IFVs were extremely vulnerable to anti-tank RPGs fired from buildings, and Chechen separatists exploited that grave mistake.I'd say British (Challengers IIs) German (Leopards), French(Leclercs), South Korean Tanks (K2s) Japanese (Type 10s) are nice opposition for Abrams. Russian tracked coffins with undertrained crews? Don't think so. Same for Chinese copies of Russian coffins with slightly better crews
More modern RPG and ATGM will be a problem, but not T-72 rebranded T-90
Russian T-72s, T-80s and BMPs didn't last very long in 1994-1996. They really were just tracked coffins.
Russia also fought other wars since then, such as the Second Chechen War (when they had to attack Grozny again) and the War in South Ossetia (when they had to fight Georgian tanks and infantry in Tskhinvali), and they didn't have as much tanks lost during these conflicts as during the First Chechen War.
Post by: Sergarr on January 26, 2014, 05:08:37 pm
It’s kind of off-topic for Korea but this thread does talk a lot about tanks. I haven’t followed along for some time but,
1) didn’t the Iraqi’s show the Achilles’ heel of an Abrams was the necessarily large supply convoys? Those turbine suck up a lot of fuel. Korea maybe not so much, it’s small, but target the tanker trucks and it still becomes more or less Rommel’s problem.
2) didn’t the Mid-East wars of the 70s demonstrate that unit superiority would be trumped by tactics and terrain? (Golan Heights)
3) does anyone think there ever will be another major tank battle involving the US? That was NATO’s plan for countering the Warsaw Pact but, it was a long time ago. The US has now had a lot of practice using drones and Hellfires. They’re pretty precise. And if somebody comes up with something so top-protected that a Hellfire wouldn’t do the job, wouldn’t it be almost no time at all until there were simply larger drones launching something bigger?
If we talk major battles, then drones along with all other electronically advanced weaponry would get disrupted by EMP and electromagnetic warfare.
Post by: misko27 on January 26, 2014, 05:16:27 pm
Because it's not like North Korea has ever simply opened fire with artillery before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong) No, they are too sane for something like that.Judging by recent trends in international politics and the fact that my country is in a military alliance with Russia, I will be able to personally see and even test (with a help of RPGs) the combat worthiness of Abrams tanks on the frontline at home in the relatively near future. I'll tell you the results once it happens, provided that Bay 12 Forums, the Internet or the USA would exist at that point. :P
Unless the brave sons of Belarus liberate their land from Batka and his cabal before then.
It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, unless USA and their NATO buddies decide to follow in their German allies' footsteps and go on a quest to Russia through Belarusian territory under the pretext of liberating the oppressed Russian homosexuals, transsexuals, Siberian natives and oil deposits. Then I'll have to fight the tanks of American "liberators" in my homeland, just like mine and my people's ancestors fought tanks of German "liberators from Stalin's tyranny" more than 70 years ago.
Back on topic, I'm still convinced that unless there'll be a border incident that spirals out of control, North Korea will not start a war against the South. We can talk about how KJU is a psycho for a long time, but he won't commit such a suicidal decision as attacking the South - he's not a comic book villain, even though American mass media like to portray him as one in order to justify American military build-up in the region.
And that was only glorious Eternal Worker's Party of Korea General Secretary Kim Jong-Il.
How major we talking here? I'm not aware of any EM warfare equipment currently in use, and the ones most likely to have that would be the US.It’s kind of off-topic for Korea but this thread does talk a lot about tanks. I haven’t followed along for some time but,
1) didn’t the Iraqi’s show the Achilles’ heel of an Abrams was the necessarily large supply convoys? Those turbine suck up a lot of fuel. Korea maybe not so much, it’s small, but target the tanker trucks and it still becomes more or less Rommel’s problem.
2) didn’t the Mid-East wars of the 70s demonstrate that unit superiority would be trumped by tactics and terrain? (Golan Heights)
3) does anyone think there ever will be another major tank battle involving the US? That was NATO’s plan for countering the Warsaw Pact but, it was a long time ago. The US has now had a lot of practice using drones and Hellfires. They’re pretty precise. And if somebody comes up with something so top-protected that a Hellfire wouldn’t do the job, wouldn’t it be almost no time at all until there were simply larger drones launching something bigger?
If we talk major battles, then drones along with all other electronically advanced weaponry would get disrupted by EMP and electromagnetic warfare.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2014, 06:18:38 pm
If we talk major battles, then drones along with all other electronically advanced weaponry would getIf the Iranians can do it you can too! There's the spirit.disrupted by EMP and electromagnetic warfare.haxed.
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 07:12:22 pm
Spoiler: Controversial Russia-Related Derail 1 (click to show/hide)
Back on topic, I'm still convinced that unless there'll be a border incident that spirals out of control, North Korea will not start a war against the South. We can talk about how KJU is a psycho for a long time, but he won't commit such a suicidal decision as attacking the South - he's not a comic book villain, even though American mass media like to portray him as one in order to justify American military build-up in the region.
I agree with this. The one thing that the current regime in North Korea is focused on is self preservation and the retention of their power. They wold never attack their neighbours without it being under some pretty extraordinary circumstances.
Spoiler: Controversial Russia-Related Derail 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: jimboo on January 26, 2014, 07:24:03 pm
With a demoralised enemy that was barely even unified (more like many independent warlords doing their own thing), the Russians were able to decimate the Republic's forces.
Hi Bread-man,
Long time, no bother. :)
What book are you referencing? No matter, odds are I won't see it anyway. The reason I'm writing to you is -- and this is just a personal peeve of mine, I try not to do the grammar police thing -- you're using decimate the way it is commonly used and I wish people would stop doing that. Decimal system and all, "decimate" means to remove every 10th man, as the Romans did to their own disappointing troops when they gave us that word.
Cheers,
jimboo
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 07:26:41 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 26, 2014, 07:35:58 pm
I agree with this. The one thing that the current regime in North Korea is focused on is self preservation and the retention of their power. They wold never attack their neighbours without it being under some pretty extraordinary circumstancesThat's nice, except no.
And that isn't even to mention all the other times. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostilities_between_North_and_South_Korea_since_1953)It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, unless USA and their NATO buddies decide to follow in their German allies' footsteps and go on a quest to Russia through Belarusian territory under the pretext of liberating the oppressed Russian homosexuals, transsexuals, Siberian natives and oil deposits. Then I'll have to fight the tanks of American "liberators" in my homeland, just like mine and my people's ancestors fought tanks of German "liberators from Stalin's tyranny" more than 70 years ago.Because it's not like North Korea has ever simply opened fire with artillery before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong) No, they are too sane for something like that.
Back on topic, I'm still convinced that unless there'll be a border incident that spirals out of control, North Korea will not start a war against the South. We can talk about how KJU is a psycho for a long time, but he won't commit such a suicidal decision as attacking the South - he's not a comic book villain, even though American mass media like to portray him as one in order to justify American military build-up in the region.
And that was only glorious Eternal Worker's Party of Korea General Secretary Kim Jong-Il.
Forget your stupid beliefs about everyone in power being selfish; forget whether you like or dislike authoritarian leaders, and forget all the other things. This is craziness in a leader; all your rational actor theories can take a walk through the DMZ for all the good they'll do. Kim Jong-Un is mad, and I have not seen any proof to the contrary.
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 07:43:39 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 26, 2014, 07:51:10 pm
But it's within their collective interest as an establishment for things to remain this way.I believe establishments are capable of acting collectively in rational ways to further their interests, but I do accept that they can make mistakes, especially when divisions begin to form. The DPRK's establishment is in that position, hence the "extraordinary circumstances" we experienced last year and, to a lesser extent, now.The establishment that so recently had their leader executed?
I'm worried about their establishment. It doesn't seem as strong as it used to. I have no idea who is winning or losing in there though. No one does. This is just Kremlinology at best.
Post by: Owlbread on January 26, 2014, 08:01:31 pm
Post by: Strife26 on January 27, 2014, 01:08:19 am
/me dons cvc sme helmet
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with rorIraqi army tanks were either downgraded export versions of T-72 they got from the Soviet Union or domestically produced copies of downgraded export versions of T-72.
Since World War II, America has never been in combat with countries that has similarly powerful armies. It's easy to gang up on a country when you have total numerical and technological superiority (like Serbia, Iraq, Libya and almost Syria). Fighting a country like Russia or China, on the other hand, is not. M1A12 SEP Abrams tanks will face much more serious resistance there than those Iraqi insurgents with IEDs...
Judging by recent trends in international politics and the fact that my country is in a military alliance with Russia, I will be able to personally see and even test (with a help of RPGs) the combat worthiness of Abrams tanks on the frontline at home in the relatively near future. I'll tell you the results once it happens, provided that Bay 12 Forums, the Internet or the USA would exist at that point. :P
I'd also argue that China definitely had a combat power equal to that of the UN forces deployed during the Korean War, hence the whole pushing our asses back the the 38th parallel thing. Abrams have been destroyed in the past, but it's a very difficult thing to do. In most cases, it's a matter of recovery being deemed more troublesome than it's worth, generally resulting in a continuous stream of bigger attempts to combat loss the downed vehicle.
Also, that's a really bad idea.
the tank has never been destroyed in combat because since the proxy wars with the soviet union they never had anything better than tanks from the 70s to compete with ror
True, but being able to take a detonation of TNT without any crippling damage does say a thing or two about its design. Al-Qaeda used to suicide bomb those tanks, nowadays they don't.I'd suggest Kim Jong-Un to liberate Korean city Vladivostok. Then it will be not so one sided as against USA but mad enough to have a right to be called a crazy dictator
It's also speculated that the South Korean military is sufficiently powerful enough that they'd wipe the floor with the North before the US gets any major assets deployed as support. South Korea spends more on their military than the North has in GDP after all.
Depends on what you want to call a major asset. There's 28000ish troops in South Korea at any one period of time, but that's not the number to look at. The big one is the fact that there's just about a full line brigade deployed, and the US is in the process of beefing that up with an additional combined arms battalion ( http://rt.com/news/us-south-korea-military-296/ (http://rt.com/news/us-south-korea-military-296/) for an easy to find source, but you can find it in official press releases if you dig.) At the end of the day, a hard core, professional volunteer badass tanking dog of war like myself is not to be considered a minor asset (it'd hurt my ego, you know?), especially when the bulk of both forces are conscript armies.
It’s kind of off-topic for Korea but this thread does talk a lot about tanks. I haven’t followed along for some time but,
1) didn’t the Iraqi’s show the Achilles’ heel of an Abrams was the necessarily large supply convoys? Those turbine suck up a lot of fuel. Korea maybe not so much, it’s small, but target the tanker trucks and it still becomes more or less Rommel’s problem.
2) didn’t the Mid-East wars of the 70s demonstrate that unit superiority would be trumped by tactics and terrain? (Golan Heights)
3) does anyone think there ever will be another major tank battle involving the US? That was NATO’s plan for countering the Warsaw Pact but, it was a long time ago. The US has now had a lot of practice using drones and Hellfires. They’re pretty precise. And if somebody comes up with something so top-protected that a Hellfire wouldn’t do the job, wouldn’t it be almost no time at all until there were simply larger drones launching something bigger?
Regarding 1, thats why the Challenger 2 (and modern Panthers IIRC) run on good old diesel rather than kerosene turbines. Regarding 2, if you can conrtol that aspect of combat. Regarding 3, there probably will be, as drones are fine and dandy, but cant really hold terrain as such.
MonkeyHead is somewhat on the ball here.
The Iraqis never had an effective counter to American tanks. It's just that, at the end of the day, you *can't* patrol a damn country that's any decent size with tracked vehicles, that's not what they're designed for. But claims of the Abrams regularly running out of fuel and being a sitting duck is almost always overblown. Believe you me, the United States military apparatus is more than aware of the importance of delicious jp8 and we're more than good to provide. Bar none, there is no country in the world that does logistics to the level of the United States (this is also why you see armchair analysts bash the Abrams for reliability, our rear echelon types, as much as I bag on them, mean that it's generally much much easier to replace rather than fix in the field).
Diesel engines are all fine and good in their place, but they just can't provide the sheer power that a turbine engine can, as well as being considerably louder. It's an aftereffect of the design considerations that went into the xm-1 project and into the Abrams. We've got more than enough range, but between long distance tooling and sprinting to the next iv line, I'm always always always going to want to do that sprinting.
2) There's a war demonstrating that every few decades or so. Hannibal, Franco-Prussian, Winter, 7-Days are all good examples. The North Korean army probably has advantages in straight discipline and probably home court or initiative, but that's not a huge advantage compared to experience, technology, and training (because, you know, the US and the ROK can actually afford to have our soldiers fire real rounds during training)
3)Drones are great, effective things, but, at the end of the day, they're just another aspect of air power. You don't get to take and hold ground with things in the air, that takes steel shod treads, closely followed by guys in boots. A drone, while having considerably greater staying power than planes of yesteryear, are still far behind that of a tank. Additionally, they don't have nearly the firepower in round count of my 120mm, the ground level view and observation capabilities, nor definite presence that can only be provided by ground forces.
I could certainly see some border skirmish spiraling out of control, probably with some inane fuckup on one side or the other starting it. But once rounds start hitting Seoul, the cat isn't going back into the bag until truly ridiculous number of civilians flee South and an armored spearhead crashes through the dmz (possibly with an armored anvil first, assuming that North Korea actually mounts an invasion)
Of course, that'll be a real, doctrinal war, the kind that you need to describe with apocalyptic terms. Not something to look forward to as a dispassionate observer.
Post by: Lagslayer on January 27, 2014, 09:35:42 am
We can always make more killbots.QuoteI'd also argue that China definitely had a combat power equal to that of the UN forces deployed during the Korean War, hence the whole pushing our asses back the the 38th parallel thing. Abrams have been destroyed in the past, but it's a very difficult thing to do. In most cases, it's a matter of recovery being deemed more troublesome than it's worth, generally resulting in a continuous stream of bigger attempts to combat loss the downed vehicle.Well, they only succeeded because the adopted Zap Brannigan style tactics.
Post by: Sheb on January 27, 2014, 10:36:26 am
Post by: martinuzz on January 27, 2014, 12:00:32 pm
HIDE. NOW.
IT'S A TRAP.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on January 27, 2014, 12:06:38 pm
They'd either have to use explosives or intense firepower to immobilize it and then somehow secure the area to force the US to abandon the tank, or they'd have to adopt Allied WW2-era tactics for fighting German Tigers.
That being: A) Do not fight on anything approaching open ground, and B) FLANK! FLANK FOR EVERYTHING YOU'RE WORTH!
A is likely feasible in Korea's terrain, though I don't actually know much about it, but B is the real key. You'd need to send multiple faster tanks around corners and hit the Abrams simultaneously, or trade off the shots. The problem is that it also relies on numerical superiority and the ability to sustain losses in such a maneuver. That could work during WW2 because the US's industrial capacity dumped Shermans all over Germany's head, and Russia had enough bodies and tanks that they could put in whoever the hell they could find into their tanks with relatively little training and still pull out victories. I don't think that the situation is the same for the NK. Not only that, but the Abrams is damned fast for a tank, and on top of all that, modern communications ruins the tactic almost completely. The moment someone jumps on the radio and let's them know what's up, it's over, especially if multiple Abrams are fielded that can cover each other to any capacity, because they turn it into a counter-ambush.
Even if it did work, they'd likely only immobilize it which then goes back to needing to secure the territory to force the actual loss.
I'm not saying that the Abrams is invincible, but we do have historical precedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Villers-Bocage#Morning_fighting) regarding armored warfare and technological superiority.
Post by: Descan on January 27, 2014, 01:06:50 pm
Can we bring back war zeppelins? Please? Just so they can blast Wagner all over the battlefield.
And develop infantry drones. Infantry using full-body suits to control robots in the field, a la that little fucking kid in the Lost in Space movie and "Robot"
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 27, 2014, 02:15:02 pm
...
And that's about all I have to say for this discussion.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 27, 2014, 03:16:50 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 27, 2014, 03:42:00 pm
...War Zeppelins began their fall from military grace when incendiary rounds were invented. Filled with Helium, their enemy now would be Radar, which would make literally flying circles around them easy, and that even assuming North Korea is relying solely on WW2 era tech, even that is advanced enough to blow them away.
Can we bring back war zeppelins? Please? Just so they can blast Wagner all over the battlefield.
And develop infantry drones. Infantry using full-body suits to control robots in the field, a la that little fucking kid in the Lost in Space movie and "Robot"
Post by: Helgoland on January 27, 2014, 03:49:10 pm
Also, big remote-controlledd 'mines', basically just huge amounts of buried explosives?
Post by: Sensei on January 27, 2014, 04:05:23 pm
Shouldn't it be rather easy to get a tank stuck? Dig a trench, cover it up with something sufficiently strong, and explode the hell out of it when a tank starts rolling over the trench... Or something similar.Actually, they have huge concrete slabs ready to drop on the narrow mountain roads. Just look at these pictures:
Also, big remote-controlledd 'mines', basically just huge amounts of buried explosives?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As has been mentioned before in this thread, the natural geography of North Korea is mountainous throughout and extremely defensible, in addition to their antiquated but still elaborate bunker and tunnel systems.
Post by: Sheb on January 27, 2014, 04:56:24 pm
Post by: Strife26 on January 27, 2014, 06:42:35 pm
Shouldn't it be rather easy to get a tank stuck? Dig a trench, cover it up with something sufficiently strong, and explode the hell out of it when a tank starts rolling over the trench... Or something similar.
Also, big remote-controlledd 'mines', basically just huge amounts of buried explosives?
Yeah, that works, but they require the tank to drive over your prepped ground. Then if it's the ditch, a small delay to unstick it. Explosives work, but it takes a lot of technical skill, and the triggerman has to survive long enough to trip them
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 27, 2014, 07:41:52 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 27, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
x50 or so, depending on what you want to defend. Also, you know, Tanks were first used in World War 1, which was a not known for being short on trenches.Shouldn't it be rather easy to get a tank stuck? Dig a trench, cover it up with something sufficiently strong, and explode the hell out of it when a tank starts rolling over the trench... Or something similar.
Also, big remote-controlledd 'mines', basically just huge amounts of buried explosives?
Yeah, that works, but they require the tank to drive over your prepped ground. Then if it's the ditch, a small delay to unstick it. Explosives work, but it takes a lot of technical skill, and the triggerman has to survive long enough to trip them
Post by: Sheb on January 28, 2014, 02:20:30 am
Post by: DJ on January 28, 2014, 03:53:58 am
Anyhow, I think tanks would be pretty much useless in a clash of two modern armies, because drones would promptly take them out. I think future land wars will be just air and infantry (air replacing artillery).
Post by: Sheb on January 28, 2014, 04:36:26 am
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 04:41:12 am
Post by: DJ on January 28, 2014, 04:54:39 am
Post by: Dutchling on January 28, 2014, 05:03:35 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 28, 2014, 05:11:15 am
Well, not really. You have to use a mixture of incendiary and explosives. Can't ignite the gas without mixing it with air first. There were many other problems with airships, mostly staying on course. (Half the damage done by German raids on Britain during WW I was done by a single airship, during a single raid, because for once it managed to hit central London. It's estimated only 10% of the bombs managed to hit anything.) Other problems were the fact that they were very susceptible to Storms (many more have been lost to Storm then to fire) and needed lots of maintenance. On average, airships were only available for 40%-20% of the time....War Zeppelins began their fall from military grace when incendiary rounds were invented. Filled with Helium, their enemy now would be Radar, which would make literally flying circles around them easy, and that even assuming North Korea is relying solely on WW2 era tech, even that is advanced enough to blow them away.
Can we bring back war zeppelins? Please? Just so they can blast Wagner all over the battlefield.
And develop infantry drones. Infantry using full-body suits to control robots in the field, a la that little fucking kid in the Lost in Space movie and "Robot"
Besides, while being very large, airships can be hard to detect on radar, if constructed out of correct materials.
Anyway, in modern days they wouldn't be near the battlefield. Airborne radar facilities and perhaps massive cargo transport would be the limits of their deployments. If you somehow detests ships, you can also use them to deploy drones and aircraft.
Post by: Helgoland on January 28, 2014, 05:56:12 am
Post by: Sergarr on January 28, 2014, 06:50:47 am
Post by: Mech#4 on January 28, 2014, 07:57:17 am
They had small zeppelin in WW2 yes? They were anchored to the ground by cables and were designed to deter low flying planes I think.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on January 28, 2014, 12:04:36 pm
I'm sad Kirov's don't exist. Well... as sad as I could be about not having a giant zeppelin bomber.
They had small zeppelin in WW2 yes? They were anchored to the ground by cables and were designed to deter low flying planes I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon)
They were not zeppelins, that is, not airships, just balloons to create artificial obstacles for enemy aircraft.
Post by: misko27 on January 28, 2014, 01:01:50 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 28, 2014, 01:13:35 pm
And there have been real airships in WW II as well (Zepellin is a trademark, IIRC). The US used them with great succes to deter enemy submarine operations, and patrol trade routes.
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 28, 2014, 02:34:45 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 28, 2014, 02:45:10 pm
Post by: MrWillsauce on January 28, 2014, 02:50:42 pm
large, expensive and hard to mount.Sounds like your mom.
Post by: Owlbread on January 28, 2014, 02:54:24 pm
Sounds like your mom.
Hold it, wait a minute, wait a minute. Don't bring anyone's mother (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO6JiFztJdg) into this.
Post by: Descan on January 28, 2014, 03:37:31 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 28, 2014, 03:49:39 pm
Still a point of stealth however.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 28, 2014, 04:03:46 pm
Spoiler: 1K17 Szhatie (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 1К11 Stilet (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Sangvin (click to show/hide)
These self-propelled laser systems were designed to combat enemy optical sensors. They were really, really expensive - for example, a 20 kg artificial rubies crystal was made for the laser projector of 1K17. Plus, some of them required an external power generator mounted in another armoured vehicle in order to fire for a prolonged period of time.
Post by: Dutchling on January 28, 2014, 04:12:25 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 28, 2014, 04:15:41 pm
i mean sure, they were far behind on electronics and probably fucked in the arms race because of it but the stuff they came up with was phenomenal when they actually put their heart into it you know?
Post by: Dutchling on January 28, 2014, 04:17:46 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 28, 2014, 04:19:51 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 28, 2014, 04:21:21 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on January 28, 2014, 04:23:53 pm
Or, as I believe it is called, the throughput.
Post by: Sirus on January 28, 2014, 04:26:27 pm
Post by: smirk on January 28, 2014, 04:26:38 pm
Dunno if any of its functioning specifics have been posted anywhere, though. Probably not.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 28, 2014, 04:28:20 pm
And the fuel they use in those drones can be pretty volatile...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 28, 2014, 04:36:19 pm
On a side note, the Soviets also developed laser pistols and revolvers. For use in space. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol)
Let me rephrase that: did they ever get used in action, or anywhere other than testing sites? Did they ever combat optical sensors like Guardian said they were designed to do? Were they even slightly practical?Never tested in combat, IIRC. Though they were tiny technological marvels, that never got past prototype stage. They only recently recovered some from places far in the Russian outback.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 28, 2014, 04:46:02 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 28, 2014, 04:55:49 pm
shoot tank -> tank explodes -> fallout on your own land, gg no re
not shoot tank -> tank wrecks your shit -> your shit is wrecked, gg no re
hell you could install a selfdestruct mechanism in case it got stuck in a trench ror
Post by: Lagslayer on January 28, 2014, 04:58:48 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on January 28, 2014, 05:06:59 pm
Lasers actually don't really suck in atmosphere - thats a common misconception. They can have an effective range well into the km , with no projectile drop whatsoever. Oh, and whilst railguns are awesome and will probably fill the heavy gun role, thier energy and maintenance requirements only make them sensible for BIIIIG guns that dont need to be fired too often. Lasers fill the light weapon role so very much better.
Post by: Culise on January 28, 2014, 05:07:15 pm
makes me wonder how nobody had the idea to take a ridiculously unshielded nuclear power generator, put it on top of a tank, give the tank loadsa lead armor (not to stop projectiles but to stop the crew from dying too fast) and make it shoot lasers then send all that into enemy territoryAs far as shooting at it, you might get an explosion, but the most you'll get is a dirty bomb; unless you put enough nuclear material to go supercritical in there and rig it to do so under sudden shocks like getting shot at (in which case you now have to worry about it doing so if you, say, hit a sharp bump in the road), there really isn't much point to it when you can just go Davy Crockett and keep the tank chassis intact.
shoot tank -> tank explodes -> fallout on your own land, gg no re
not shoot tank -> tank wrecks your shit -> your shit is wrecked, gg no re
hell you could install a selfdestruct mechanism in case it got stuck in a trench ror
Also, really, why would you want to put it on a tank? Nuclear ramjets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto) are where it's at. Load it up with nukes, set it up so you can open the shielding if you want to make the exhaust itself radioactive (or don't; it'd be complex, prone to failure, and just ramming it into the ground at supersonic speeds should scatter radioactive material across enough terrain), and watch the fireworks. And, without people on board, you never need to land the thing to take on food or water, so it can just sit in the stratosphere for years, watching and waiting. ^_^
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 28, 2014, 05:09:33 pm
how else do you destroy tanks than with explosions? exploding the tank will send fissionables everywhere like it's candy
that was the whole point really
you can easily substitute something else that requires loadsa power like the previously mentioned railguns
Post by: Aseaheru on January 28, 2014, 05:10:54 pm
The best places for lasers on earth is mountains or various deserts. So... Fun!
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 28, 2014, 05:34:48 pm
But did they actually work? Cuz I'd think there'd be a lot more laser-based weaponry around if the Soviets had actually made them useful.Yes, they actually did work as intended. However, the laser weapon development program was closed after the collapse of the Soviet Union due to lack of funds, and most prototypes were scrapped. The surviving vehicles had their laser emitters removed.
Apparently I'm in in the thread title now, so here's another interesting Soviet weapon prototype: 17F19D Skif-DM, an experimental Soviet anti-satellite military spacecraft.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/-8XJqZFKCf9g/Ueb23ZNIAyI/AAAAAAAFy3o/SWLs4y75a0w/clip_image009_thumb%25255B1%25255D.gif?imgmax=800)
Skif-DM was created in response to the American SDI program. This spacecraft was designed to destroy SDI satellites with the help of a megawatt carbon-dioxide laser installed onboard. The laser emitter installed in Skif-DM was originally created for Beriev A-60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-60) airborne laser system (it's like Boeing YAL-1, except A-60 was made 30 years before its American counterpart and is still in service).
The only prototype of this spacecraft, called Polyus, was launched on the 15th of May 1987 from the Baikonur Cosmodrome. It was mounted on a superheavy rocket Energia, which would be later used to launch the Buran space shuttle.
Spoiler: Polyus on launchpad (click to show/hide)
The ship was launched upside-down due to technical reasons. Unfortunately, during orbit circulazation manoeuvre, the ship spinned 360 degrees instead of 180 degrees because of a programming error. As a result, when the ship's engines automatically fired to circularize its orbit, Polyus was actually deorbited. It burned in the upper atmosphere.
The best friend of America Mikhail Gorbachev was very afraid that the disclosure of the Skif programme could piss off the United States and ruin the reputation of the Soviet Union, so no other spacecraft with laser systems were made. The flight data were used during further development of Energia launch vehicles. The development of Energia launch vehicles was ultimately abandoned after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Spoiler: A render of Skif-DM in orbit, firing its gun (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: A render of Skif-DM in orbit, being resupplied by the Buran space shuttle (click to show/hide)
Also:
Well, as has been posted before, the US is deploying one on a ship this year (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/us-navy-laser-weapon-deployed-uss-ponce-2014_n_3043244.html). Even if they're over-hyping the thing, it's apparently something that they're wanting to continue to improve.I've heard very, very sketchy reports once that Soviet engineers tried installing an experimental laser gun on one of Soviet Navy destroyers in the 1970s. The operational tests were successful, but the project didn't take off for some reason.
Dunno if any of its functioning specifics have been posted anywhere, though. Probably not.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 28, 2014, 05:47:00 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 28, 2014, 05:56:13 pm
Nice rotation.I shamelessly stole the rotating gif from a Russian website about the Buran programme (http://www.buran.ru/) and its offshoots (that also promotes Russian liberal opposition, which is kinda funny considering that the devastating rule of Russian liberals in the 1990s indirectly caused the closure of many development programs featured there; Russian scientists had to collect scraps to survive because R&D didn't get any financing at all)
Post by: Bouchart on January 28, 2014, 06:30:24 pm
Quote
On a side note, the Soviets also developed laser pistols and revolvers. For use in space. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol)
Well, yeah. Anyone who's played Yuri's Revenge knows that.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on January 28, 2014, 07:03:45 pm
makes me wonder how nobody had the idea to take a ridiculously unshielded nuclear power generator, put it on top of a tank, give the tank loadsa lead armor (not to stop projectiles but to stop the crew from dying too fast) and make it shoot lasers then send all that into enemy territory
shoot tank -> tank explodes -> fallout on your own land, gg no re
not shoot tank -> tank wrecks your shit -> your shit is wrecked, gg no re
hell you could install a selfdestruct mechanism in case it got stuck in a trench ror
Because irradiating territory pisses off everyone, way more than planting minefields. Carrying around an unshielded reactor is going to fuck up everywhere that tank goes, and the whole world is going to jump whoever's ass was crazy and/or malicious enough to intentionally render enemy territory uninhabitable, to say nothing of air currents that would spread the radiation beyond the immediate location.
We don't use every weapon we have available to us due to enforced morality, at the least.
Post by: Jopax on January 28, 2014, 08:20:14 pm
So it's not so much that you explode them to death but they spectacularly explode themselves after kinda dying.
Or in case of aircraft, those usually explode them in a variety of ways, but those aren't as common I think as getting knocked out by HEAT rounds from hand-held devices.
Post by: misko27 on January 28, 2014, 09:53:02 pm
Internal Monologue: Yay! My time to shine!
*continues reading*
Quote
On a side note, the Soviets also developed laser pistols and revolvers. For use in space. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol)Internal Monologue: Ahh nuts.
Also you don't really need explosives to kill tanks. They usually explode on their own (usually ammo, there's some spectacular vids of such explosions in Syria). The kill usually happens from the round shattering inside the vehicle (thus turning any flesh into a fine mist), the armour spalling (giving much the same effect but this time it's the tank itself that mistifies you) or in case of HEAT rounds the crew gets boiled by the stream of molten metal.So to sum up: You are in a metal death machine dealing metal death to other metal death machines and having metal death dealt to your metal death machine. This can involve painful, metallic death.
So it's not so much that you explode them to death but they spectacularly explode themselves after kinda dying.
Or in case of aircraft, those usually explode them in a variety of ways, but those aren't as common I think as getting knocked out by HEAT rounds from hand-held devices.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 03:25:05 am
Also, really, why would you want to put it on a tank? Nuclear ramjets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto) are where it's at. Load it up with nukes, set it up so you can open the shielding if you want to make the exhaust itself radioactive (or don't; it'd be complex, prone to failure, and just ramming it into the ground at supersonic speeds should scatter radioactive material across enough terrain), and watch the fireworks. And, without people on board, you never need to land the thing to take on food or water, so it can just sit in the stratosphere for years, watching and waiting. ^_^The basic design for the Nuclear ramjet doesn't include shielding. It's too heavy, and hampers the engine. (Airflow directly over the reactor is required for thrust and cooling). And sadly, reactors are heavy. It won't fly for years. It will fly for months however, but much longer and the engine rapidly looses thrust.
Yup, this might fall under the ENMOD treaty, which bans weaponization of geo-engineering.makes me wonder how nobody had the idea to take a ridiculously unshielded nuclear power generator, put it on top of a tank, give the tank loadsa lead armor (not to stop projectiles but to stop the crew from dying too fast) and make it shoot lasers then send all that into enemy territory
shoot tank -> tank explodes -> fallout on your own land, gg no re
not shoot tank -> tank wrecks your shit -> your shit is wrecked, gg no re
hell you could install a selfdestruct mechanism in case it got stuck in a trench ror
Because irradiating territory pisses off everyone, way more than planting minefields. Carrying around an unshielded reactor is going to fuck up everywhere that tank goes, and the whole world is going to jump whoever's ass was crazy and/or malicious enough to intentionally render enemy territory uninhabitable, to say nothing of air currents that would spread the radiation beyond the immediate location.
We don't use every weapon we have available to us due to enforced morality, at the least.
Post by: scrdest on January 29, 2014, 07:27:05 am
makes me wonder how nobody had the idea to take a ridiculously unshielded nuclear power generator, put it on top of a tank, give the tank loadsa lead armor (not to stop projectiles but to stop the crew from dying too fast) and make it shoot lasers then send all that into enemy territoryContrary to what Hollywood would have you believe, shooting a nuclear reactor doesn;t make it explode.
shoot tank -> tank explodes -> fallout on your own land, gg no re
not shoot tank -> tank wrecks your shit -> your shit is wrecked, gg no re
hell you could install a selfdestruct mechanism in case it got stuck in a trench ror
Nuclear forces aren't directly affected by physical forces. Compressing a reactor might send it into meltdown because all the uranium is compressed together, but not directly because of the compression.
Explode, not really, but uranium is pretty flammable. The main problem with early reactors was that they liked to catch fire very, very much. And once they did, Uranium Smoke!
Post by: Funk on January 29, 2014, 09:51:25 am
Let me rephrase that: did they ever get used in action, or anywhere other than testing sites? Did they ever combat optical sensors like Guardian said they were designed to do? Were they even slightly practical?
The Royal Navy had working laser dazzlers by 82 we just didn't use them.
link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23518592)
Post by: jimboo on January 29, 2014, 10:48:17 am
Explode, not really, but uranium is pretty flammable. The main problem with early reactors was that they liked to catch fire very, very much. And once they did, Uranium Smoke!
Not the uranium so much as the surrounding materials:
http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter7.html
Chernobyl-style reactors use graphite as a neutron moderator. That’s one of those things where “it works well, until it doesn’t.” That Soviet-style reactor also produces plutonium as a by-product along with electricity, unlike other designs.
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 10:58:00 am
Post by: Lagslayer on January 29, 2014, 11:01:28 am
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 11:20:33 am
I know it sounds like a 2000AD comic from the early '80s, maybe an obscure issue of "Cal-Hab Justice", but by jove we'll do it.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 29, 2014, 11:37:58 am
the whole country
for president
now
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 29, 2014, 11:55:48 am
The USSR really was the greatest, wisest Union. Rather than just laughing at Reagan and spending more money on improving public services in Central Asia/Far East/Caucasus, or even just making some more tights/stockings/cigarettes/whatever people wanted in the managed economy, they decide to spend god knows how much on a laser pistol to allow cosmonauts to shoot pesky American agents in space.
Yeah, because the totally peace-loving and totally not unified Western countries have never ever planned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable) any offensive military action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Totality) against the Soviet Union... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot) It was just paranoia stirred up by tyrants in the Kremlin, duh.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 12:11:20 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 12:16:52 pm
Yeah, because the totally peace-loving and totally not unified Western countries have never ever planned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable) any offensive military action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Totality) against the Soviet Union... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot) It was just paranoia stirred up by tyrants in the Kremlin, duh.
Guardian, I'm not criticising the USSR for spending money on defence. The USSR was under great threat, I agree and haven't said otherwise. In spite of that though even you must agree that it was silly to spend money on that laser pistol? To allow for wars in space?
I've often thought though that if the USSR got rid of all its weapons/troops, then declared that not only was militarism wrong, but it should be forbidden in the Soviet Union then maybe it would have gained more international sympathy. You know, just raise a big white flag at the USA and say that fighting is no longer necessary, all that matters is that the quality of life for Soviet people should be improved. I wonder if that would have changed things. The USA and the West holding a gun to the head of a pacifist, welfare-conscious nation would be a very different PR situation indeed.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 29, 2014, 12:18:44 pm
they had to put their own lasers in there to kill american lasers so they wouldn't be screwed ror
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 29, 2014, 12:20:46 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 12:21:22 pm
to understand laser pistols you must understand that america already put lasers in space in order to murderize soviet second strike capability
they had to put their own lasers in there to kill american lasers so they wouldn't be screwed ror
Hence why I said "rather than just laughing at Reagan".
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 29, 2014, 12:24:39 pm
It's standard practice to draw up war plans for every possible hypothetical situation. I have little doubt that Canada and Mexico both have "how to keep the US from curbstomping us" plans locked up in some government archive, even though there is no realistic chance of it being used.
Indeed, we did. I believe that it involved bicycle troops and waiting for the British to come and bail our asses out. If you can't tell, it was made sometime during the 1930s...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 12:29:07 pm
Also, I'm pretty sure that this laser pistol comes from the "We're going for manned spy satellites" part of Russian space history. Another point is that during the entire cold War, the USSR had to catch up with the USA. They started with very little, and got some astonishing results, after all. On a side note, the pacifist approach won't work. The US would continue it's policy of finding USSR client states, supporting a revolution, then invade/liberate.
Post by: jimboo on January 29, 2014, 12:36:42 pm
Kate Harper: [to the Canadian Ambassador] Ambassador, listen carefully. An hour ago, I reviewed the United States contingency plan to invade your country.
Will Bailey: There's a contingency plan...
Kate Harper: [Interrupting Will] 1789, amended in 1815. The calligraphy is beautiful. And if one more deal is floated in this room, I'm gonna ask DoD to reactive it.
Post by: Sheb on January 29, 2014, 12:42:54 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 12:45:38 pm
Well, the Soviet laser system was a precursor/offshoot/tangentially related to their other laser initiatives. I mean, they also developed the technology for an orbital anti satellite laser, which would have been very useful indeed.
Also, I'm pretty sure that this laser pistol comes from the "We're going for manned spy satellites" part of Russian space history. Another point is that during the entire cold War, the USSR had to catch up with the USA. They started with very little, and got some astonishing results, after all. On a side note, the pacifist approach won't work. The US would continue it's policy of finding USSR client states, supporting a revolution, then invade/liberate.
If the states were truly democratic there would be no good reason to "liberate". That doesn't mean it would stop the USA or Britain, we know this. Basically all the problems with Iran today can be traced back to the fall of Mosaddegh orchestrated by the CIA/MI6, same with Chile in the early '70s, but people aren't aware of those things because nobody really cared about those countries outside of certain circles. If things started going along those lines in, say, Hungary or Poland and then later the various SSRs, the USSR may have had a more legitimate case that people across the world would have listened to.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 01:06:32 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 29, 2014, 01:07:16 pm
Well, the Soviet laser system was a precursor/offshoot/tangentially related to their other laser initiatives. I mean, they also developed the technology for an orbital anti satellite laser, which would have been very useful indeed.Exactly. The USSR couldn't just do nothing and see how the Americans are encroaching at their borders.
Also, I'm pretty sure that this laser pistol comes from the "We're going for manned spy satellites" part of Russian space history. Another point is that during the entire cold War, the USSR had to catch up with the USA. They started with very little, and got some astonishing results, after all. On a side note, the pacifist approach won't work. The US would continue it's policy of finding USSR client states, supporting a revolution, then invade/liberate.
Also, a very important part of Soviet (and Russian) military strategy is that the enemy should not be able to easily destroy Soviet/Russian nuclear weapons. It was assumed by the Soviets and it is assumed by Russia that its nuclear weapons are the only thing that deters the United States from attacking them, and if the USA will be absolutely sure that the Soviet Union/Russia will not retaliate with nuclear weapons, then it will strike first. Thus, the development of anti-satellite weapons was started to counter the SDI program, the Perimeter system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_%28nuclear_war%29) was created to ensure that retaliatory strike would be launched even if the top military commanders get destroyed by an American decapitation strike, etc.
Russia today is against the deployment of American ABM systems in Central and Eastern Europe for the same reason.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 01:12:49 pm
Also, if they started development of the SLAM, then the USSR would as well, and there was no known effective system to intercept these types of warheads.
Post by: Descan on January 29, 2014, 01:29:14 pm
And they spent all that military funding on infrastructure and their economies and civilian-oriented research...
Bluh.
Post by: misko27 on January 29, 2014, 01:30:13 pm
Actually in the 1950's, there was an attempt at overture to the US by Krutshev, but it was mostly turned down.Saying what?
I've heard rumors that the US purposely raised it's military spending to force the USSR's to unsustainable levels. I don't personally subscribe to such rumors (It's more likely it was unintentionally lucky), but it's out there. The Soviet Union certainly achieved a numbers advantage around the late 80s, they just never realized that it didn't matter.to understand laser pistols you must understand that america already put lasers in space in order to murderize soviet second strike capability
they had to put their own lasers in there to kill american lasers so they wouldn't be screwed ror
Hence why I said "rather than just laughing at Reagan".
I feel like Owlbread is describing a imaginary situation: I mean, the US could have easily done the same pacifist route, but didn't for many of the same reasons. They were simply always going to have military tension; and in the real world great powers just don't use a pacifist strategy.
And here is my smoking gun. Guardian G.I. is unintentionally illustrating why neither side would unilaterally disarm: Neither genuinely believed they wouldn't be attacked. Remember, perception matters as much as reality.Well, the Soviet laser system was a precursor/offshoot/tangentially related to their other laser initiatives. I mean, they also developed the technology for an orbital anti satellite laser, which would have been very useful indeed.Exactly. The USSR couldn't just do nothing and see how the Americans are encroaching at their borders.
Also, I'm pretty sure that this laser pistol comes from the "We're going for manned spy satellites" part of Russian space history. Another point is that during the entire cold War, the USSR had to catch up with the USA. They started with very little, and got some astonishing results, after all. On a side note, the pacifist approach won't work. The US would continue it's policy of finding USSR client states, supporting a revolution, then invade/liberate.
Also, a very important part of Soviet (and Russian) military strategy is that the enemy should not be able to easily destroy Soviet/Russian nuclear weapons. It was assumed by the Soviets and it is assumed by Russia that its nuclear weapons are the only thing that deters the United States from attacking them, and if the USA will be absolutely sure that the Soviet Union/Russia will not retaliate with nuclear weapons, then it will strike first. Thus, the development of anti-satellite weapons was started to counter the SDI program, the Perimeter system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_%28nuclear_war%29) was created to ensure that retaliatory strike would be launched even if the top military commanders get destroyed by an American decapitation strike, etc.
Russia today is against the deployment of American ABM systems in Central and Eastern Europe for the same reason.
Post by: Sheb on January 29, 2014, 01:32:36 pm
Post by: Descan on January 29, 2014, 01:37:06 pm
Why WOULDN'T you want other people to get to a good quality of life and a good economic foundation? Why WOULDN'T you want more people to sell to?
"Oh no, China is going to overtake America!"
Whoop de fucking do.
Post by: Dutchling on January 29, 2014, 01:48:02 pm
That kind of thinking has always disturbed me. Especially in a capitalist system.Well, there was this thing, called the cold war:
Why WOULDN'T you want other people to get to a good quality of life and a good economic foundation? Why WOULDN'T you want more people to sell to?
"Oh no, China is going to overtake America!"
Whoop de fucking do.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on January 29, 2014, 01:49:27 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2014, 03:12:06 pm
And did not the soviet high command go out of there way to develop plans that would not render the world dead, involving just hitting nukes and not civvies?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 29, 2014, 03:15:51 pm
Post by: Sheb on January 29, 2014, 03:21:48 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2014, 03:24:12 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 03:42:07 pm
Yeah, but that was only because the Brits had a limited amount of nukes, so wanted to be sure to hurt.
I think anyone in favour of retaining Trident in the UK should really read more about those plans. You know, get a better perspective. Especially those who consider themselves to be good Christians i.e. many Conservatives/Labour members.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2014, 03:48:53 pm
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 03:54:39 pm
I am pretty sure those tridents you are talking of could hit things other than cities, I think I remember reading that they where designed to be able to take out hardened silos.
But then again it's not about what they could hit as much as what they were going to be used to hit.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2014, 03:55:13 pm
Post by: Culise on January 29, 2014, 03:56:50 pm
Which is convenient, since the American war plan involved eating Canada wholesale and waiting for the British, and the British notions of a war plan (since their government put the kibosh on actually formalizing any war plans against America for much of the interwar era) basically boiled down to sacrificing Canada and making peripheral attacks to wear the US down.It's standard practice to draw up war plans for every possible hypothetical situation. I have little doubt that Canada and Mexico both have "how to keep the US from curbstomping us" plans locked up in some government archive, even though there is no realistic chance of it being used.
Indeed, we did. I believe that it involved bicycle troops and waiting for the British to come and bail our asses out. If you can't tell, it was made sometime during the 1930s...
I am pretty sure those tridents you are talking of could hit things other than cities, I think I remember reading that they where designed to be able to take out hardened silos.That may be possible, but that wasn't the intended use. The critical aspect of UK nuclear policy in the Cold War era was the "Moscow Criterion" - basically, their ability to destroy Moscow. In effect, since it could not be relied upon to equal the Soviet arsenal numerically and was independent of the American arsenal in operation, maintenance, and targeting, it had to be aimed against political and societal targets of destruction against softer targets in order to serve as an effective deterrent - that is to say, major cities
Post by: misko27 on January 29, 2014, 04:04:19 pm
Post by: Helgoland on January 29, 2014, 04:30:15 pm
Post by: Sheb on January 29, 2014, 04:48:51 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on January 29, 2014, 04:52:55 pm
can i just grab a bunch of gms from different games and mash them into a council which will produce turns then run the turns through a bunch of guardian gis (get yourself cloned m8) so it's GLORIOUS enough and then publish the stuff? no? knew it.
still that's the kind of stuff i want to do now. man i'd bring a lot of fun ideas to the soviet r&d which would have me laughed out of the ussr within a month
Post by: misko27 on January 29, 2014, 05:04:19 pm
It's basically the reason we haven't all died in nuclear fire; how could any reasonable person be against it? It's counter-intuitive, but it makes logical sense, and it makes peace damnit. It's actually the reason why ABM systems are more destructive to peace then actual nukes.
Post by: Owlbread on January 29, 2014, 05:22:35 pm
How can you be against MAD? It logically follow from the existence of nuclear weapons and lack of efficient anti-nuke system. It's not good or bad, it just is.
Despite my earlier musings even I know that if I was in the Soviets' position I would probably arm myself to the teeth.
Post by: Culise on January 29, 2014, 05:33:20 pm
How can you be against MAD? It logically follow from the existence of nuclear weapons and lack of efficient anti-nuke system. It's not good or bad, it just is.Nah, it follows from proliferation, not the invention. Reading up on some of the American post-war debates on a first strike between Fat Man and RDS-1 is a little disturbing, really, and probably one of the biggest arguments I can think of in favour of MAD. The biggest caveat I have is that, while MAD is peace after a fashion, it's an unstable equilibrium that fundamentally relies on the rationality of the actors and the ability to ensure that destruction - that is, you have to have something to target. In a post-War era where the greatest threat comes from non-state, diffuse organizations rather than formal governments, it's in danger of becoming inadequate, which is perhaps a disturbing notion.
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2014, 07:41:34 pm
Post by: Tsuchigumo550 on January 29, 2014, 10:42:02 pm
MAD is obsolete the second the nukes stop firing, and that either happens when the warring countries die or they take the world down with them.
Post by: misko27 on January 29, 2014, 11:40:50 pm
The biggest defense against a nuke is to be everywhere, without too many resources in one place.That doesn't really have to do with anything. That is basically the same thing as balance of power in world politics, except with nuclear fire. We certainly haven't had any world wars since nukes were invented, thus so far it seems more stable, no?
MAD is obsolete the second the nukes stop firing, and that either happens when the warring countries die or they take the world down with them.
Yeah Culise, I've read the post 1945 "pre-emptive war" arguments, and it envisions a world quite unthinkable. In a world where nukes have no taboo, and where only one country has them, all balance of power arguments end. From a foreign-policy perspective, nukes are a perfect dream: no fuss, no soldiers lost, costs insignificant to that of maintaining a real army, no opposition except from pacifists; basically a war solver in a single-use. Inhumane, perhaps, but a real war isn't much better. Imagine if nukes could be used for any purpose, to solve any problem from USSR to Korea: North Vietnam would have yielded in a day, and if it hadn't, you could simply wipe them off the face of the earth; Napalm could kiss Nixon's ass. The US would have unparalleled dominance, over every country in every continent. Any serious war with the US would be outright suicide; better to simply surrender immediately and pray for safety.
Sure, it wouldn't be a cure-all, but in the early 40s the Taliban were nothing but dreams in a distant future, Al Queda unheard of (and possibly never to form, since the US would have simply nuked the USSR away, so no training for militants). Tsuchigimo, I have heard (but not totally confirmed, though I have run some numbers) that the US had, at least at one point, enough nuclear weapons to kill all people on earth: clearly dispersion is no obstacle. In a solely selfish rational POV, the US should have nuked Russia with all the (admittedly few) nukes they had at the time.
This discussion reminds me of a certain someone. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyjlqhiTV8)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 30, 2014, 02:30:22 am
Post by: Sheb on January 30, 2014, 02:34:44 am
Anyway, I guess having large power with nukes is a good thing. Japan should probably get some.
Post by: scrdest on January 30, 2014, 03:22:57 am
The biggest defense against a nuke is to be everywhere, without too many resources in one place.That doesn't really have to do with anything. That is basically the same thing as balance of power in world politics, except with nuclear fire. We certainly haven't had any world wars since nukes were invented, thus so far it seems more stable, no?
MAD is obsolete the second the nukes stop firing, and that either happens when the warring countries die or they take the world down with them.
Yeah Culise, I've read the post 1945 "pre-emptive war" arguments, and it envisions a world quite unthinkable. In a world where nukes have no taboo, and where only one country has them, all balance of power arguments end. From a foreign-policy perspective, nukes are a perfect dream: no fuss, no soldiers lost, costs insignificant to that of maintaining a real army, no opposition except from pacifists; basically a war solver in a single-use. Inhumane, perhaps, but a real war isn't much better. Imagine if nukes could be used for any purpose, to solve any problem from USSR to Korea: North Vietnam would have yielded in a day, and if it hadn't, you could simply wipe them off the face of the earth; Napalm could kiss Nixon's ass. The US would have unparalleled dominance, over every country in every continent. Any serious war with the US would be outright suicide; better to simply surrender immediately and pray for safety.
Sure, it wouldn't be a cure-all, but in the early 40s the Taliban were nothing but dreams in a distant future, Al Queda unheard of (and possibly never to form, since the US would have simply nuked the USSR away, so no training for militants). Tsuchigimo, I have heard (but not totally confirmed, though I have run some numbers) that the US had, at least at one point, enough nuclear weapons to kill all people on earth: clearly dispersion is no obstacle. In a solely selfish rational POV, the US should have nuked Russia with all the (admittedly few) nukes they had at the time.
This discussion reminds me of a certain someone. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyjlqhiTV8)
See, he problem is, US had no idea how many nukes did USSR have at the time - they overestimated the numbers quite a lot, and so the main reason they didn't attack was that they thought they would be pulverized in retaliation.
Post by: Sergarr on January 30, 2014, 03:38:02 am
they overestimated the numbers quite a lotThanks to Soviet diplomats and spies.
EDIT: Wow, I fail at quoting.
Post by: DJ on January 30, 2014, 03:45:50 am
Post by: scrdest on January 30, 2014, 04:43:59 am
I don't think the nukes could've made the world so nice for USA. Sure, no countries would be able to oppose it, but individuals are kinda hard to neutralize with nukes. If USA were to be such humongous assholes and nuke all who disagree with them, I reckon large scale terrorist attacks on US soil would be a daily occurrence.
A NUKE FOR EACH TERRORIST! NUKE FOR THE NUKE GOD!
Post by: Helgoland on January 30, 2014, 05:58:17 am
How can you be against MAD? It logically follow from the existence of nuclear weapons and lack of efficient anti-nuke system. It's not good or bad, it just is.I dunno, but there's plenty of people that are - unilateralists, pacifists, "Friedensbewegte" (peace activists in the '80s, goddamn hippie communist scum; most notably were opposed to the NATO double-track decision, parts of the movement later formed the Green Party)... Basically all the [REDACTED] who consider Realpolitik a bad thing.
Post by: misko27 on January 30, 2014, 07:27:06 am
Again, to a foreign policy guy sitting in his desk reading reports from the occupation, it was attractive.
Post by: Sergarr on January 30, 2014, 08:04:04 am
Both those weapons render the territory gained useless.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 30, 2014, 08:26:50 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 30, 2014, 08:46:53 am
The main problem with using nukes to conquer territory is the same reason why people don't use chemical weapons en masse to do so.Chemical weaponry less than nukes. Poison gas just kills everyone/everything, nukes have tendency to destroy infrastructure as well.
Both those weapons render the territory gained useless.
Post by: Sergarr on January 30, 2014, 08:58:02 am
Chemical weapons also include stuff like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange)The main problem with using nukes to conquer territory is the same reason why people don't use chemical weapons en masse to do so.Chemical weaponry less than nukes. Poison gas just kills everyone/everything, nukes have tendency to destroy infrastructure as well.
Both those weapons render the territory gained useless.
Also you can technically spray acid to destroy infrastructure...
Post by: scrdest on January 30, 2014, 09:10:38 am
Chemical weapons also include stuff like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange)The main problem with using nukes to conquer territory is the same reason why people don't use chemical weapons en masse to do so.Chemical weaponry less than nukes. Poison gas just kills everyone/everything, nukes have tendency to destroy infrastructure as well.
Both those weapons render the territory gained useless.
Also you can technically spray acid to destroy infrastructure...
People tend to overestimate what acids are able to do. Hell, a thin plate of steel would withstand acid.
E: And on the other side, you have neutron bombs which don't destroy infrastructure.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on January 30, 2014, 09:12:53 am
Chemical weapons also include stuff like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange)Just because some chemical weaponry destroy what you're going for, doesn't mean that you can't use others.
Also you can technically spray acid to destroy infrastructure...
Post by: Funk on January 30, 2014, 10:00:54 am
It is the contaminating 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) that is the real nasty stuff that build up over time.
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on January 30, 2014, 06:27:46 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 30, 2014, 09:07:19 pm
Also if the Chinese pollution is any indication, we might see a bunch of fallout and chemical nastiness blow back into the Americas.I'm not sure what this is in reference too. Chinese Pollution is predominantly a Chinese problem, followed closely by a Global Warming problem.
Then China makes medicines, and America has to buy them en-masse.The FDA rejects a lot of stuff from China actually. Might be all that pollution.
Clearly, China is good with evil economics. They are exploiting the world!
Post by: Descan on January 30, 2014, 10:57:02 pm
Post by: tahujdt on January 31, 2014, 12:31:57 am
Post by: Steelmagic on January 31, 2014, 12:36:04 am
I read this on the TVTropes 'Captive Audience' trope page, so its accuracy is not guaranteed, but I imagine that if it wasn't true, somebody woulda removed it, so: In North Korea, they have speakers in all living quarters that start blasting martial music and "news" at six in the morning. 1984, anyone?I think I've heard that from a couple of other places. But i can't remember what those places were and they were probably equal to or less than TVTropes accuracy wise.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 31, 2014, 05:52:52 am
I read this on the TVTropes 'Captive Audience' trope page, so its accuracy is not guaranteed, but I imagine that if it wasn't true, somebody woulda removed it, so: In North Korea, they have speakers in all living quarters that start blasting martial music and "news" at six in the morning. 1984, anyone?Something tells me that they are probably talking about national cable radio system similar to the system that existed in the USSR.
In Soviet Union, there used to be a cable radio service broadcasting 3-4 national radio stations, which could be received by special devices called "радиоточка" in Russian. In order to turn it on, you had to put its plug into a special "radio socket". Unlike all radio devices in all Western propaganda dystopias about socialist states, they could be turned off without any consequences, like all television sets and radios. They didn't have any equipment to receive any conventional radio broadcasts and were designed to receive only the cable radio signal.
Spoiler: Here's how they looked like (click to show/hide)
In wartime, the cable radio system would be used to broadcast civil defence instructions and attack warnings. People didn't use the cable radio much and listened to radio stations by using ordinary radios with antennae.
I'm not sure about Russia, but in Belarus the cable radio system is still operational. No one uses it, though.
Post by: Lagslayer on January 31, 2014, 11:39:56 pm
Post by: martinuzz on February 01, 2014, 05:00:38 am
Post by: scrdest on February 01, 2014, 05:28:30 am
I hear rumor that Kim Jong has executed 3 of his doppelganger assasination decoy clones, for "trying to look like the glorious leader"
If it's true, soon he will start executing the military for trying to protect the Glorious Leader who is, obviously, invincible.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 01, 2014, 11:19:36 am
Crazy Russians, with their backwards, upside down, inside-out letters.Blame Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius), their Bulgarian followers and Greek missionaries sent to Kievan Rus for the creation and spread of those backwards, upside down, inside-out letters to 'crazy' Russians.
Also, be glad that the Glagolitic script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet) didn't become widespread and was replaced by simpler Greek-derived Cyrillic script.
Post by: scrdest on February 01, 2014, 11:38:48 am
Crazy Russians, with their backwards, upside down, inside-out letters.Blame Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius), their Bulgarian followers and Greek missionaries sent to Kievan Rus for the creation and spread of those backwards, upside down, inside-out letters to 'crazy' Russians.
Also, be glad that the Glagolitic script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet) didn't become widespread and was replaced by simpler Greek-derived Cyrillic script.
Freud would have a field day with Glagolitic script.
Post by: Akura on February 01, 2014, 12:40:17 pm
For some reason I thought "Problem solved." when I read that.I hear rumor that Kim Jong has executed 3 of his doppelganger assasination decoy clones, for "trying to look like the glorious leader"
If it's true, soon he will start executing the military for trying to protect the Glorious Leader who is, obviously, invincible.
I thought that the reasons you don't normally use chemical weapons, international treaties aside, was because they're: hard to control once you release them(ie wind may shift), tend to hit unintended targets(civilian village instead of enemy army due to aforementioned wind shift), and that most military force you would use them against that you couldn't defeat with conventional weapons would likely be equipped with some form of protection against them.The main problem with using nukes to conquer territory is the same reason why people don't use chemical weapons en masse to do so.Chemical weaponry less than nukes. Poison gas just kills everyone/everything, nukes have tendency to destroy infrastructure as well.
Both those weapons render the territory gained useless.
Post by: Aseaheru on February 01, 2014, 01:02:03 pm
((Apparently they have slightly too-short-to-work-in-the-best-way lifespans))
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 01, 2014, 02:56:44 pm
And yeah, the wind is problematic. Protection no that much, as your average gasmask won't bother most poison gasses that much.
Post by: kaijyuu on February 01, 2014, 03:07:42 pm
Chemical =/= biological weaponry.Pfffttt. Biology is just applied chemistry.
Post by: scrdest on February 01, 2014, 04:04:28 pm
Chemical =/= biological weaponry.Pfffttt. Biology is just applied chemistry.
And Chemistry is just applied Physics. Therefore, a gun counts as biological warfare.
Post by: Helgoland on February 01, 2014, 04:10:34 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on February 01, 2014, 04:13:13 pm
Post by: Baffler on February 01, 2014, 08:11:54 pm
Post by: tahujdt on February 01, 2014, 08:15:06 pm
Post by: Descan on February 01, 2014, 08:26:57 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on February 01, 2014, 08:31:13 pm
/me is giggling as he uses all these fighting idiots to create wondrous things.Everyone knows that anything with practical application isn't real science/math.
Post by: Aseaheru on February 01, 2014, 09:49:31 pm
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
Post by: misko27 on February 01, 2014, 11:46:34 pm
/me is giggling as he uses all these fighting idiots to create wondrous things./me releases a laugh, fell and terrible, as he uses all these wondrous things to create fighting idiots.
Full circle.
Post by: tahujdt on February 01, 2014, 11:48:49 pm
Post by: Descan on February 02, 2014, 12:12:46 am
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 02, 2014, 12:19:05 am
Post by: MagmaMcFry on February 02, 2014, 03:59:10 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 02, 2014, 05:52:44 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 02, 2014, 05:57:00 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 02, 2014, 10:22:57 am
/me takes some notes about what the other guys are doing.
/me takes offense with the way these notes were written and read, and suggests an interpretation based on the class struggle instead.
Post by: scrdest on February 02, 2014, 10:26:52 am
/me takes some notes about what the other guys are doing.
/me takes offense with the way these notes were written and read, and suggests an interpretation based on the class struggle instead.
/me claims that this discussion is merely a figment of one's imagination.
/me claims this discussion got rather silly.
Post by: tahujdt on February 02, 2014, 11:00:21 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 02, 2014, 11:01:38 am
Post by: tahujdt on February 02, 2014, 11:05:04 am
Post by: Baffler on February 02, 2014, 11:07:05 am
So the crew of the North Korean freighter Panama detained way back when has been released. Mostly. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/world/americas/panama-north-korean-ship/)
Tl;dr is that they have released 32 of 35 crew members, and are deporting them to Cuba. The ship was carrying materiel from Cuba to be serviced in Best Korea. The ship's officers are being charged with arms smuggling.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 02, 2014, 11:14:54 am
Quote
Panama stopped the ship in July and authorities found undeclared weaponry from Cuba -- including MiG fighter jets, anti-aircraft systems and explosives -- buried under thousands of bags of sugar.Hey Guardian, what do you think being buried under sugar would do to a MiG?
Quote
Authorities had originally imposed a $1 million fine on North Korea over the shipment, which they said violated the security of the canal, a key waterway linking the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.SAAATTTTANNNNN!
That fine was reduced by a third to $666,666, Panama's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Post by: Akura on February 02, 2014, 01:07:09 pm
QuotePanama stopped the ship in July and authorities found undeclared weaponry from Cuba -- including MiG fighter jets, anti-aircraft systems and explosives -- buried under thousands of bags of sugar.Hey Guardian, what do you think being buried under sugar would do to a MiG?QuoteAuthorities had originally imposed a $1 million fine on North Korea over the shipment, which they said violated the security of the canal, a key waterway linking the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.SAAATTTTANNNNN!
That fine was reduced by a third to $666,666, Panama's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
- It'd turn into a sweet plane.
- ...They simply reduced the fine by 1/3. That's all.
Post by: tahujdt on February 02, 2014, 01:20:29 pm
Post by: tahujdt on February 02, 2014, 01:21:04 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 02, 2014, 01:32:50 pm
QuotePanama stopped the ship in July and authorities found undeclared weaponry from Cuba -- including MiG fighter jets, anti-aircraft systems and explosives -- buried under thousands of bags of sugar.Hey Guardian, what do you think being buried under sugar would do to a MiG?
Sugar isn't corrosive. Plus, even though Tom Clancy might argue otherwise, MiGs, including scaled-down export versions of them aren't that fragile and won't break down from a little bit of pressure of sugar bags.
Post by: scrdest on February 02, 2014, 01:41:19 pm
QuotePanama stopped the ship in July and authorities found undeclared weaponry from Cuba -- including MiG fighter jets, anti-aircraft systems and explosives -- buried under thousands of bags of sugar.Hey Guardian, what do you think being buried under sugar would do to a MiG?
Sugar isn't corrosive. Plus, even though Tom Clancy might argue otherwise, MiGs, including scaled-down export versions of them aren't that fragile and won't break down from a little bit of pressure of sugar bags.
Sugar is sticky. Many parts don't like being sticky.
Post by: Bauglir on February 02, 2014, 01:44:36 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 02, 2014, 01:58:01 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on February 02, 2014, 02:06:34 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 02, 2014, 02:15:27 pm
Besides, I'm pretty sure the sugar + engine thing is a myth. Sugar doesn't dissolve in petrol (IIRC) and it will be blocked by the engine.
Post by: scrdest on February 02, 2014, 02:28:53 pm
Probably less damage actually.
Besides, I'm pretty sure the sugar + engine thing is a myth. Sugar doesn't dissolve in petrol (IIRC) and it will be blocked by the engine.
Sugar is polar, petrol is unpolar. Therefore, it does not dissolve in petrol. This might be the problem exactly, though.
Post by: MaximumZero on February 02, 2014, 02:29:06 pm
I also have many of these parts.QuotePanama stopped the ship in July and authorities found undeclared weaponry from Cuba -- including MiG fighter jets, anti-aircraft systems and explosives -- buried under thousands of bags of sugar.Hey Guardian, what do you think being buried under sugar would do to a MiG?
Sugar isn't corrosive. Plus, even though Tom Clancy might argue otherwise, MiGs, including scaled-down export versions of them aren't that fragile and won't break down from a little bit of pressure of sugar bags.
Sugar is sticky. Many parts don't like being sticky.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 02, 2014, 02:33:06 pm
Probably less damage actually.
Besides, I'm pretty sure the sugar + engine thing is a myth. Sugar doesn't dissolve in petrol (IIRC) and it will be blocked by the engine.
Sugar is polar, petrol is unpolar. Therefore, it does not dissolve in petrol. This might be the problem exactly, though.
Well, as long as there's a decent fuel filter, it shouldn't clog up anything.
Post by: Helgoland on February 02, 2014, 02:52:10 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 02, 2014, 02:58:42 pm
Post by: acetech09 on February 02, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
I'm not talking from experience. At all.
Post by: scrdest on February 02, 2014, 03:17:00 pm
If you want to easily destroy an engine, put many quantities of iron/steel filings in the oil and cut a hole in the oil filter. Should take under two minutes to do if you google the location of the filter beforehand. Say goodbye to just about everything.
I'm not talking from experience. At all.
We're slowly approaching the point where blowing up the car seems more efficient.
Post by: Bauglir on February 02, 2014, 03:18:22 pm
What if we just dropped a rock on it? Like, a really big one.
Post by: acetech09 on February 02, 2014, 03:29:45 pm
What if we just dropped a rock on it? Like, a really big one.
You'd need a crane for that! This is North Korea we're talking about.
Post by: Descan on February 02, 2014, 03:34:27 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 02, 2014, 03:39:08 pm
Post by: acetech09 on February 02, 2014, 03:47:20 pm
what if we just asked glorious leader to wish it into exploding and not waste our time with cranes
Shame on myself for not regarding our glorious leader as the primary origin and solution for all things and problems.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 02, 2014, 03:49:04 pm
what if we just asked glorious leader to wish it into exploding and not waste our time with cranes
Shame on myself for not regarding our glorious leader as the primary origin and solution for all things and problems.
for admitting to heresy, instead of death penalty you will receive one million years labor camp thank you for working with the glorious motherland
Post by: tahujdt on February 02, 2014, 04:01:56 pm
In the evil land of evil capitalist imperialist evilness, you would be executed by firing squad, then they will use their evil capitalist zombie-making machines to bring you back to life, then execute you again.what if we just asked glorious leader to wish it into exploding and not waste our time with cranes
Shame on myself for not regarding our glorious leader as the primary origin and solution for all things and problems.
for admitting to heresy, instead of death penalty you will receive one million years labor camp thank you for working with the glorious motherland
Post by: Jopax on February 02, 2014, 04:28:12 pm
Post by: Korbac on February 02, 2014, 04:46:17 pm
I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.
You are mistaken! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKI--2S6xks)
Post by: Flying Dice on February 02, 2014, 08:26:43 pm
I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.This is North Korea we're talking about. They probably covered it in maple syrup.
...wait a minute, maple syrup. I knew that Canada was up to something fishy!
Post by: Culise on February 02, 2014, 08:50:04 pm
This explains everything. That "theft" of six million pounds of maple syrup in 2012 was actually part of a nefarious Communist plot; the arrests were just a cover for the government.I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.This is North Korea we're talking about. They probably covered it in maple syrup.
...wait a minute, maple syrup. I knew that Canada was up to something fishy!
Post by: acetech09 on February 02, 2014, 08:56:35 pm
This explains everything. That "theft" of six million pounds of maple syrup in 2012 was actually part of a nefarious Communist plot; the arrests were just a cover for the government.I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.This is North Korea we're talking about. They probably covered it in maple syrup.
...wait a minute, maple syrup. I knew that Canada was up to something fishy!
Canada confirmed for North Korea ally.
Post by: Lagslayer on February 02, 2014, 08:59:49 pm
Hmm. Doesn't Canada have oil?This explains everything. That "theft" of six million pounds of maple syrup in 2012 was actually part of a nefarious Communist plot; the arrests were just a cover for the government.I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.This is North Korea we're talking about. They probably covered it in maple syrup.
...wait a minute, maple syrup. I knew that Canada was up to something fishy!
Canada confirmed for North Korea ally.
Post by: acetech09 on February 03, 2014, 12:20:49 am
Hmm. Doesn't Canada have oil?This explains everything. That "theft" of six million pounds of maple syrup in 2012 was actually part of a nefarious Communist plot; the arrests were just a cover for the government.I'm fairly certain they didn't just toss in a plane and pile sugar over it. They probably covered it in something beforehand.This is North Korea we're talking about. They probably covered it in maple syrup.
...wait a minute, maple syrup. I knew that Canada was up to something fishy!
Canada confirmed for North Korea ally.
Nevermind the oil. They have maple syrup.
EDIT:
Spoiler: Pictoral evidence of our glorious leader enacting his scheme (click to show/hide)
Post by: Eotyrannus on February 03, 2014, 05:45:28 pm
Post by: acetech09 on February 04, 2014, 12:21:27 am
Post by: Eotyrannus on February 04, 2014, 12:32:31 pm
Mk. (Will have gf doodle more kim-jong-un shortly)
PRAISE BE TO THE LIVER OF-
Wait Dial's on another forum. DANGIT NOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO PRAISE
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 04, 2014, 04:25:39 pm
Spoiler: Artist's rendition of an average Best Korean painter at work (click to show/hide)
Post by: MagmaMcFry on February 04, 2014, 04:46:18 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 04, 2014, 05:02:27 pm
Heaven help him if he accidentally spills some paint on an article about the Great Leader...
Post by: tahujdt on February 04, 2014, 05:25:08 pm
Post by: Bouchart on February 06, 2014, 07:17:44 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26047439
Kim appears to be a fan of apple.
Except that every five minutes, Clippy pops up and spouts propaganda.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 06, 2014, 07:28:30 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26047439
Kim appears to be a fan of apple.
Is it sad that I want to install that OS just to see what it's like?
Post by: Bouchart on February 06, 2014, 08:09:02 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26047439
Kim appears to be a fan of apple.
Is it sad that I want to install that OS just to see what it's like?
It's probably something like this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEaTiVDaU2E)
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on February 06, 2014, 08:33:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 06, 2014, 08:51:25 pm
Don't install it, you will just hate yourself after it's over, like eating a bucket of dirt.
Well, it'd be part of a virtual computer or something like that. I just want to see what it's like, you know?
Post by: Yoink on February 06, 2014, 08:52:58 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 06, 2014, 08:55:19 pm
It's my birthday tomorrow. :(Interesting, but irrelevant unless you are Kim Jong-un.
...!
Post by: Steelmagic on February 06, 2014, 08:59:50 pm
Dear god. He's been among us the whole time.It's my birthday tomorrow. :(Interesting, but irrelevant unless you are Kim Jong-un.
...!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 06, 2014, 09:02:06 pm
What would your father say?!Dear god. He's been among us the whole time.It's my birthday tomorrow. :(Interesting, but irrelevant unless you are Kim Jong-un.
...!
Post by: Yoink on February 07, 2014, 12:45:57 am
How did that post end up in here, of all places?!
/me totally isn't Kim Jong-un. Totally.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 07, 2014, 09:47:55 am
...
How did that post end up in here, of all places?!
/me totally isn't Kim Jong-un. Totally.
Right... Sure you aren't... When are you going to hook me up with that sweet OS of yours?
Post by: martinuzz on February 07, 2014, 09:57:31 am
Post by: acetech09 on February 07, 2014, 09:50:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Even tho it says acetech09, I can't take the credit. Enjoy.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 08, 2014, 12:11:36 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 08, 2014, 10:20:22 am
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 10, 2014, 10:16:22 pm
Any ideas?
Post by: Frumple on February 10, 2014, 10:32:57 pm
E: For the persuasive aspect, you could talk about the benefits inherent in breaking up a hyperpower or introducing more superpowers (by breaking current superpower strangleholds on developing nations) to the global stage. Competition and all that rot.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2014, 10:38:52 pm
So my teacher told us we needed to write an persuasive essay then assigned us our topics and stances. I'm supposed to write an essay advocating the invasion of North Korea...-North Korea is an increasingly unstable threat that must be taken down now before they go off the deep end.
Any ideas?
-It is immoral and hypocritical to allow other human beings to persist in a totalitarian state just because it would inconvenience the rest of us to liberate them.
-The existence of North Korea and the existence of democratic states are inherently unable to coexist, and will continue to conflict until one or the other is destroyed. The correct choice is obvious.
-(If American) We owe a debt to both the South and North Koreans by becoming geopolitical involved with them to reunite Korea, we are ultimately responsible in part all the hardship that both sides have suffered as a result of the division.
-Kim Jong-un is absolutely fucking insane.
-(If American) The end of North Korea means a weakening of China, a weakening of China means the continued dominance of the United States, the continued dominance of the United States is in the interests of everybody.
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 10, 2014, 10:59:48 pm
So my teacher told us we needed to write an persuasive essay then assigned us our topics and stances. I'm supposed to write an essay advocating the invasion of North Korea...-North Korea is an increasingly unstable threat that must be taken down now before they go off the deep end.
Any ideas?
-It is immoral and hypocritical to allow other human beings to persist in a totalitarian state just because it would inconvenience the rest of us to liberate them.
-The existence of North Korea and the existence of democratic states are inherently unable to coexist, and will continue to conflict until one or the other is destroyed. The correct choice is obvious.
-(If American) We owe a debt to both the South and North Koreans by becoming geopolitical involved with them to reunite Korea, we are ultimately responsible in part all the hardship that both sides have suffered as a result of the division.
-Kim Jong-un is absolutely fucking insane.
-(If American) The end of North Korea means a weakening of China, a weakening of China means the continued dominance of the United States, the continued dominance of the United States is in the interests of everybody.
Your first point is actually my current main point of the paper. I'm trying to stay away from moral cases for the invasion, because my professor told me he won't be shy about drawing parallels between the proposed North Korean Invasion and Vietnam/Iraq/Pakistan.
About how much is known about NK's current military prowess? Earlier in this thread someone claimed they had hundreds of artillery
emplacements aimed at Seoul, South Korea.
Do it from the perspective of something like a former Soviet Union nationalist, wanting the western dogs and their puppets to bleed themselves out in fruitless, wasteful wars.
Trying to be serious here. ;)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2014, 11:17:45 pm
Your first point is actually my current main point of the paper. I'm trying to stay away from moral cases for the invasion, because my professor told me he won't be shy about drawing parallels between the proposed North Korean Invasion and Vietnam/Iraq/Pakistan.You're going to have to address that whether you use moral arguments or not....Pakistan?
Quote
About how much is known about NK's current military prowess? Earlier in this thread someone claimed they had hundreds of artilleryNot much is known for certain. They have lots of artillery pointing over the DMZ, the question is how well they've been able to maintain it and how good their supply lines are. They have plenty of parade forces that look impressive, but that's all they ever show the world. All available evidence suggests everything else is not even remotely as well maintained. I noticed back during the Channel 4 documentary that their police don't even carry guns.
emplacements aimed at Seoul, South Korea.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 10, 2014, 11:27:14 pm
1. The least likely pair of states to go to war are two democracies.
2. It is good to minimize the possibility of war.
3. Therefore, autocracies should be invaded and forcibly converted into democracies whenever the political capital can be mustered and a weak target is available.
If you need an example, just bring up Iraq. It worked so well, too; they're holding free elections and not going to war with anyone! We don't even need to fabricate evidence of WMDs for a casus belli to invade North Korea, either, and the cover story about ending human rights abuses sounds even better.
Post by: Frumple on February 10, 2014, 11:28:42 pm
Trying to be serious here. ;)That was unfortunately only about half not. The frank fact of the matter, as, from what I've seen, has been fairly well established every time the subject of invading NK has came up, is that it's an absolute lose situation for everyone that would be involved in most invasion scenarios. N+SK comes out worse, any Western support involved comes out worse, any non-Western support comes out worse, multiple groups (Such as China, who have a non-zero chance of just letting NK sink in the case of an invasion) that may or may not get involved directly either end up worse or no better. No one directly or indirectly involved wins.
More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.
*Mostly, of course, being because the major powers getting involved and screwing themselves over (which is an unavoidable results of an invasion, pretty much no matter how you cut it) would have global consequences regardless.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on February 11, 2014, 01:04:09 am
More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.
In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 11, 2014, 01:49:42 am
More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.
In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.
That's really not a viable approach, at least for the majority of international thinkers in the U.S. South Korea (and Japan) are important U.S. allies precisely because they help counterbalance China, and a not-insignificant element of that is a holdover of old Cold War policy. The last thing the U.S. government wants is for the Koreas to fight, the U.S. to stay uninvolved, and China to step in and "deal with the whole mess". Intervention on the behalf of South Korea would almost certainly be a domestic disaster for the U.S. government if it ran longer than a year and saw U.S. ground forces committed, but South (or a unified) Korea falling into China's sphere of influence would be an infinitely worse international disaster for the U.S. government. It's worrying enough for these people that Japan's largest trade partner is now (IIRC, it happened recently) China, never mind the possibility of an alliance between them and South/Reunified Korea. Hell, war between the Koreas with the U.S. intentionally avoiding participation would be a massive coup for China; they have the opportunity to upstage the U.S., tighten bonds with South Korea, and deal with the ongoing disaster magnet on their border. Same sort of idea as with Chinese investment and aid in Africa, except a high-profile moment rather than long-term systematic development.
That aside, it's a rather simplistic view of the economic angle; South Korea is a supplier of relatively cheap consumer goods, predominantly electronics. Something like a war with the DPRK would obviously trash that, which in turn means price spikes in the U.S.; we're firmly post-industrial, and even the high-tech sector of production is still relatively insignificant compared to the service sector (or foreign imports). Drastic reduction in the volume of goods imported from any of our major trading partners would be painful for the U.S.; certainly U.S. businesses competing with those imports would benefit, but that doesn't equate to it being good for the U.S. government or population. Same deal as implementing protectionist trade policies: it's good for the firms that face reduced competition, bad for everyone else (except for developing states that need to protect fledgling industry from being overrun by cheap foreign imports--including, coincidentally, South Korea a few decades ago).
Basically, the U.S. government has nothing to gain in the economic or international political realms by avoiding intervening in a Korean war. Literally the best outcome (from the perspective of the U.S. government) of such a situation would be a brief, inconclusive war between the Koreas, with no external intervention, which does not change the status quo. To put it briefly, that is... unlikely.
Post by: Strife26 on February 11, 2014, 04:22:28 am
More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.
In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.
What.
That doesn't make sense.
As Flying Dice undersaid, South Korea is *the* key US ally in the Asia-Pacific. Also, the idea that US Ground forces wouldn't get involved requires a leap of reality that's pretty much ridiculous.
As the resident US Army ground combat arms guy, it's helpful to remember that I could reasonably point a weapon North, fire, and get a round to land in North Korea. The US-SK military alliance has stood for over 60 years now. Starting your argument with "Yeah, it doesn't count" makes about as much sense as "selling Alaska is a great idea"
You need to argue that it's immoral for the civilized world to let people in a shithole country like North Korea continue to live under Kim Jong-Un's thumb. Furthermore, you need to say that preemptive war *now* is going to be less disruptive in terms of US/SK/NK lives than war on North Korea's terms whenever they want, or the war that'd break out when they collapse.
Point out specifically how obsolete most of their artillery is, as well as the ridiculous technology gap between the US/RoK forces and the DPRK. Use the fact that the US landed a whole additional combined arms battalion. (search DoD sources to find a good press brief on it).
1)North Korea demands liberation if anywhere does
2)Setting the war on our terms in greatly preferable to either a North Korea started war or a North Korean Collapse.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 11, 2014, 05:06:00 am
if you want to write an interesting essay, don't focus on why north korea is horrible and that its people deserve freedom, etc., focus on how much profit your country would get from invading north korea and plundering its resources
it wouldn't be a particularly good or long one, but you could sell it off as scathing social commentary for mad props - liberal arts love scathing social commentary. this only will work if your professor belongs to a very clearly defined group of people so the choice is yours
Post by: Strife26 on February 11, 2014, 05:41:59 am
But yeah, it's not a strong argument, of course, you're manifestly *not* going to be seeing any kind of profit from plundering North Korea compared to the cost of the resulting shittiness.
I mean, some argument is better than no argument, after all. I suppose that you could argue that paying out combat pay to us troops would help the economy somehow? I could use the bonus.
Post by: Helgoland on February 11, 2014, 07:15:48 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 11, 2014, 02:23:33 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on February 11, 2014, 02:26:36 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 11, 2014, 02:29:24 pm
Additionally, they have on numerous occasions confirmed that they posses, or are very close to possessing, nuclear weaponry.
Post by: MonkeyHead on February 11, 2014, 02:34:21 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 11, 2014, 02:34:21 pm
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on February 11, 2014, 03:01:39 pm
Post by: Dutchling on February 11, 2014, 03:07:25 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 11, 2014, 03:09:37 pm
Plus, I don't think even China would invade NK for that given the potential risk involved. Even if there is a 90% chance that they take out ALL of NK's nukes before they can hit China, thats a 10% chance that millions of Chinese citizens would die.
Post by: Dutchling on February 11, 2014, 03:10:02 pm
Well, NK has large reserves of coal and rare earths./me laugh maniacally
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 11, 2014, 03:12:36 pm
Post by: Strife26 on February 11, 2014, 09:27:05 pm
Except that if their were huge reserves China would just make a joint deal with NK, where China would extract the minerals/oil and keep most of the oil/minerals that came out of the ground.
Plus, I don't think even China would invade NK for that given the potential risk involved. Even if there is a 90% chance that they take out ALL of NK's nukes before they can hit China, thats a 10% chance that millions of Chinese citizens would die.
It's much less than that. Nuclear weapons on North Korea's scale aren't of the size, nor with the delivery systems to be city busters
Post by: MaximumZero on February 11, 2014, 09:52:51 pm
How about twisting the words? Assume North Korea attacked first. Then there's some very nice parallels to the original Korean War, a bit of moral and geostrategic issues on the side... It works, and you get around the justification problem.You could also cite their aggressive behavior toward the west. Halting the constant saber rattling and exploiting the US/UN for aid would lower the cost of working in the international markets, and make the world a little bit safer all around.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on February 11, 2014, 09:54:54 pm
China has no benefit in exploiting North Korea's rare Earth's. After all, they do have a monopoly on Rare Earth's themselves. No point in destroying that.
... I don't understand how this makes any sense. If they have a monopoly, wouldn't they want to exploit the potential competition, especially before it gets started? Just acquire it all so they can maintain that monopoly? Why would a monopoly leave (guaranteed) potential competition alone?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 11, 2014, 10:37:23 pm
Post by: Helgoland on February 12, 2014, 12:45:10 am
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 06:44:44 am
Post by: Helgoland on February 12, 2014, 07:21:57 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 12, 2014, 08:39:44 am
A thing I was wondering, what about delivering NK nukes to Seoul? Sure, their ICBMs are a joke, but Seoul is only ~40 km from the border. Even if their nukes are Fat-Man-sized, launching it with a huge Schwere Gustav-style gun (or even a multi-stage supergun) wouldn't be too hard.Not impossible, but even more suicidal than the usual use of nuclear weapons. The normal winds of Seoul travel north. All that fallout would be carried back to NK.
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 08:43:11 am
Post by: Sirus on February 12, 2014, 08:44:17 am
Still a possibility though, if this theoretical invasion happens and Kim realizes in time that he's losing. Dictators aren't exactly known for being graceful losers and there's always the chance that he might decide to hit the big red button out of spite.A thing I was wondering, what about delivering NK nukes to Seoul? Sure, their ICBMs are a joke, but Seoul is only ~40 km from the border. Even if their nukes are Fat-Man-sized, launching it with a huge Schwere Gustav-style gun (or even a multi-stage supergun) wouldn't be too hard.Not impossible, but even more suicidal than the usual use of nuclear weapons. The normal winds of Seoul travel north. All that fallout would be carried back to NK.
Again, hypothetical.
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 08:47:11 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 12, 2014, 08:49:01 am
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 09:04:07 am
However; whenever we are talking about invading NK, we always bring up the artillery deterrent, not the nuclear one. I assume it is because we widely assume they don't have rockets capable of being fitted with a nuke. (However, the Rodong-1 can carry a 1000 kg warhead, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few of those ready*)
But even if they're still stuck with multi-tonnes warheads, propelling one by gun would be easy enough, and would make any invasion even more costly than previously though.
For the guy that is looking for argument: we need to invade before they get a viable nuclear deterrent.
*The US had tactical nukes weighting less than 1000 kg by 1952 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_7_nuclear_bomb), so it's not exactly high-tech.
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on February 12, 2014, 02:23:26 pm
This totally makes sense to me. "Don't kill me, because when I die I will take you with me" seems like a sensible safeguard. You think if, say, Germany invaded the US with conventional forces, the US would fail to nuke Germany before collapsing?Still a possibility though, if this theoretical invasion happens and Kim realizes in time that he's losing. Dictators aren't exactly known for being graceful losers and there's always the chance that he might decide to hit the big red button out of spite.A thing I was wondering, what about delivering NK nukes to Seoul? Sure, their ICBMs are a joke, but Seoul is only ~40 km from the border. Even if their nukes are Fat-Man-sized, launching it with a huge Schwere Gustav-style gun (or even a multi-stage supergun) wouldn't be too hard.Not impossible, but even more suicidal than the usual use of nuclear weapons. The normal winds of Seoul travel north. All that fallout would be carried back to NK.
Again, hypothetical.
Post by: Chaoswizkid on February 12, 2014, 02:47:05 pm
Situation 1: NK launches nuclear warheads using missiles.
Result: Mobile missile defense, which would be deployed using the above assumption, would neutralize the missiles. It is unlikely this system would be overwhelmed as the NK likely does not have enough missiles or nuclear warheads.
Situation 2: NK launches nuclear warheads using a big gun.
Result: Lots of people at least within the US military would be carefully monitoring every sector of NK using satellite imaging. While this wouldn't be terribly effective during normal combat, troop movements and possible strength would still be observed and estimated. By the logic that Big Gun is Big, it would be something that is very difficult to hide without making it rather obvious, especially with the resources the NK has at its disposal. Once Big Gun is Big is located, which is likely before it is able to fire since it would have to be deployed from being camouflaged (otherwise it'd almost certainly be very obvious in the first place and easily identifiable), aircraft on-call will be able to strike at the target. Strike aircraft would likely be on-call for specifically any situation that might involve the NK deploying nuclear weapons.
Situation 3: NK detonates a nuke in its own territory in a secure location.
Result: Boom. There's not a lot that can prevent this from happening. The location of the nuke must be known beforehand, the method of activation should be known in order to best plan how to neutralize the threat by either securing the nuke or securing the activation method, must be done way before they would think of normally activating it, etc. Very unlikely. This is the most dangerous outcome because there's no real plausible way to deal with it and it is certainly a threat.
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 12, 2014, 03:03:02 pm
-snip-
Situation 3: NK detonates a nuke in its own territory in a secure location.
Result: Boom. There's not a lot that can prevent this from happening. The location of the nuke must be known beforehand, the method of activation should be known in order to best plan how to neutralize the threat by either securing the nuke or securing the activation method, must be done way before they would think of normally activating it, etc. Very unlikely. This is the most dangerous outcome because there's no real plausible way to deal with it and it is certainly a threat.
In that case it would actually be reasonable to assume the nuke would be between Prongyang and the DMZ. In case of land invasion press button. To avoid that the military would likely invade by sea or come from an unexpected direction- like south from the border of China.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 12, 2014, 03:07:45 pm
like south from the border of China.
what.
Post by: Descan on February 12, 2014, 03:11:35 pm
:D
Post by: Chaoswizkid on February 12, 2014, 03:16:08 pm
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?-snip-
Situation 3: NK detonates a nuke in its own territory in a secure location.
Result: Boom. There's not a lot that can prevent this from happening. The location of the nuke must be known beforehand, the method of activation should be known in order to best plan how to neutralize the threat by either securing the nuke or securing the activation method, must be done way before they would think of normally activating it, etc. Very unlikely. This is the most dangerous outcome because there's no real plausible way to deal with it and it is certainly a threat.
In that case it would actually be reasonable to assume the nuke would be between Prongyang and the DMZ. In case of land invasion press button. To avoid that the military would likely invade by sea or come from an unexpected direction- like south from the border of China.
That's in the case of a tactical nuke, in which case you'd be on to something. However, when I wrote that I was considering something more akin to the suicide route of just blowing up the whole capitol while the armies of your enemies are in the city. This seems even more likely in the situation that air currents on the Korean peninsula apparently travel north so any use of nuclear weapons on their home turf would only be considered in a last-ditch, kill-as-many-as-possible event. Then it doesn't matter what SK-US forces would do to circumvent it, because attempting to assault any target of any amount of importance carries the threat of tons of people dying, soldiers and civilians alike. At this point the war would never have an invasion and the SK-US forces would just beef up the border and conduct air and drone strikes until the NK government folds, which is probably what would theoretically happen anyway because US military tactics like high-mobility, rapid warfare that would almost certainly not be possible in an invasion of the NK. If SK-US forces actually did invade, in order to undermine the threat of local-use nuclear weapons, the entire war would turn into a siege since the cities would be untargetable and SK-US forces would seize as much farmland as possible in order to starve the cities into submission. Again, against the philosophy and ethics of the modern US military, so that's also unlikely.
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 12, 2014, 03:19:12 pm
like south from the border of China.
what.
I mean to say they could land north of Prongyang, south of the Chinese border, then march south to Prongyang.
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?-snip-
Situation 3: NK detonates a nuke in its own territory in a secure location.
Result: Boom. There's not a lot that can prevent this from happening. The location of the nuke must be known beforehand, the method of activation should be known in order to best plan how to neutralize the threat by either securing the nuke or securing the activation method, must be done way before they would think of normally activating it, etc. Very unlikely. This is the most dangerous outcome because there's no real plausible way to deal with it and it is certainly a threat.
In that case it would actually be reasonable to assume the nuke would be between Prongyang and the DMZ. In case of land invasion press button. To avoid that the military would likely invade by sea or come from an unexpected direction- like south from the border of China.
That's in the case of a tactical nuke, in which case you'd be on to something. However, when I wrote that I was considering something more akin to the suicide route of just blowing up the whole capitol while the armies of your enemies are in the city. This seems even more likely in the situation that air currents on the Korean peninsula apparently travel north so any use of nuclear weapons on their home turf would only be considered in a last-ditch, kill-as-many-as-possible event. Then it doesn't matter what SK-US forces would do to circumvent it, because attempting to assault any target of any amount of importance carries the threat of tons of people dying, soldiers and civilians alike. At this point the war would never have an invasion and the SK-US forces would just beef up the border and conduct air and drone strikes until the NK government folds, which is probably what would theoretically happen anyway because US military tactics like high-mobility, rapid warfare that would almost certainly not be possible in an invasion of the NK. If SK-US forces actually did invade, in order to undermine the threat of local-use nuclear weapons, the entire war would turn into a siege since the cities would be untargetable and SK-US forces would seize as much farmland as possible in order to starve the cities into submission. Again, against the philosophy and ethics of the modern US military, so that's also unlikely.
I see your point, Modern Military Tactics are so fascinating. Although, a more viable alternative to holding onto the farmland would be to burn it all- scorched earth method.
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
Situation 2: NK launches nuclear warheads using a big gun.
Result: Lots of people at least within the US military would be carefully monitoring every sector of NK using satellite imaging. While this wouldn't be terribly effective during normal combat, troop movements and possible strength would still be observed and estimated. By the logic that Big Gun is Big, it would be something that is very difficult to hide without making it rather obvious, especially with the resources the NK has at its disposal. Once Big Gun is Big is located, which is likely before it is able to fire since it would have to be deployed from being camouflaged (otherwise it'd almost certainly be very obvious in the first place and easily identifiable), aircraft on-call will be able to strike at the target. Strike aircraft would likely be on-call for specifically any situation that might involve the NK deploying nuclear weapons.
What? Of course not, since the target would be static (Seoul), you could get away with burying it in a hillside somewhere. Just think V-3 underground. You'd just need to flip a hatch open at the end. And even if it was discovered (and frankly, in case of invasion you'll have dozens if not hundreds of guns all shooting, I'm not sure that one would be easy to find), with nukes you only need one shot.
Post by: Culise on February 12, 2014, 03:31:57 pm
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?Aum Shinrikyo might be viable, since it's a cult that has actually used weapons classified as WMDs in an act of terror - they released Sarin gas into the Tokyo Metro back in 1995. Subsequent raids discovered stockpiles of anthrax, Ebola, conventional weapons, a military assault helicopter, and enough chemicals to produce sufficient Sarin to kill four million people (assuming a more efficient delivery platform than they actually used in the subway attack). The Branch Dravidians might also be an option depending on how your teacher remembers the Waco Siege, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda has been variously described as a cult.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 12, 2014, 03:33:32 pm
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Restoration_of_the_Ten_Commandments_of_God) (Mass Suicide/Homicide), Aleph/Aum Shinrikyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo) (Terrorism, Mass Murder), Children of God/Family of Love/The Family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_International) (Kidnapping, Forced Membership), Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints) (Child Abuse, Polygamy, Racism, Cult of Personality), House of Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yahweh) (Child Abuse, Child Labor, Sexual Abuse, Cult of Personality), and the list just wouldn't be complete without Scientology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology) (Financial Scam, Copyright Trolling, Member Abuse, Murder, Harassment, Slander, Brainwashing).
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 12, 2014, 03:39:25 pm
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?Aum Shinrikyo might be viable, since it's a cult that has actually used weapons classified as WMDs in an act of terror - they released Sarin gas into the Tokyo Metro back in 1995. Subsequent raids discovered stockpiles of anthrax, Ebola, conventional weapons, a military assault helicopter, and enough chemicals to produce sufficient Sarin to kill four million people (assuming a more efficient delivery platform than they actually used in the subway attack). The Branch Dravidians might also be an option depending on how your teacher remembers the Waco Siege, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda has been variously described as a cult.
Writing paper now. I'm focusing on North Korea's cult like fixation on their supreme leaders and drawing parallels to infamous cults such as the Manson Family, Heaven's Gate, and the People's Temple. Going to point out how many lives were lost due to the formations of these cults, and ask what they would have done if they had access to nuclear material. Any other notable cults I could include?Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Restoration_of_the_Ten_Commandments_of_God) (Mass Suicide/Homicide), Aleph/Aum Shinrikyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo) (Terrorism, Mass Murder), Children of God/Family of Love/The Family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_International) (Kidnapping, Forced Membership), Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints) (Child Abuse, Polygamy, Racism, Cult of Personality), House of Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yahweh) (Child Abuse, Child Labor, Sexual Abuse, Cult of Personality), and the list just wouldn't be complete without Scientology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology) (Financial Scam, Copyright Trolling, Member Abuse, Murder, Harassment, Slander, Brainwashing).
Thanks for the input. Out of the original three I have chosen the People's Temple, with some consideration on involving the Manson Family. That previous sentence could never be taken out of context.
Post by: Sheb on February 12, 2014, 03:39:59 pm
Post by: Chaoswizkid on February 12, 2014, 03:40:28 pm
Situation 2: NK launches nuclear warheads using a big gun.
Result: Lots of people at least within the US military would be carefully monitoring every sector of NK using satellite imaging. While this wouldn't be terribly effective during normal combat, troop movements and possible strength would still be observed and estimated. By the logic that Big Gun is Big, it would be something that is very difficult to hide without making it rather obvious, especially with the resources the NK has at its disposal. Once Big Gun is Big is located, which is likely before it is able to fire since it would have to be deployed from being camouflaged (otherwise it'd almost certainly be very obvious in the first place and easily identifiable), aircraft on-call will be able to strike at the target. Strike aircraft would likely be on-call for specifically any situation that might involve the NK deploying nuclear weapons.
What? Of course not, since the target would be static (Seoul), you could get away with burying it in a hillside somewhere. Just think V-3 underground. You'd just need to flip a hatch open at the end. And even if it was discovered (and frankly, in case of invasion you'll have dozens if not hundreds of guns all shooting, I'm not sure that one would be easy to find), with nukes you only need one shot.
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, if the target is static then that does change how things would likely play out. As for it being discovered, I was basically saying that the observers would not be watching all of the gun battles directly. Transmission delay on any information that's tactically relevant means that satellite observation would play a backseat to pretty much every other method, so satellite observation would be focused on strategically-relevant information: where are the large groups of enemy forces, what are they doing, where are the artillery emplacements (if they moved since previous observation), does it look like they're deploying anything related to nuclear weapons? They wouldn't even be looking at the battles. Then, after discovery, I was taking into account the deployment time from camouflage, but if we're going with fixed, pre-aimed, embedded artillery, then you're right, it doesn't matter if it's discovered because the shot will be fired as soon as or sooner than anyone will see the gun.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 12, 2014, 04:39:55 pm
Assuming an invasion of SK-US joint operation, and with the knowledge or at least very credible assumption that NK has nuclear weapons,Anti missile weaponry isn't perfect. Even the best systems only have a 75%-80% success rate* for intercepting missile weaponry. After all, a ballistic weapon is pretty stealthy, once the burn stage has been completed.
Situation 1: NK launches nuclear warheads using missiles.
Result: Mobile missile defense, which would be deployed using the above assumption, would neutralize the missiles. It is unlikely this system would be overwhelmed as the NK likely does not have enough missiles or nuclear warheads.
*Don't ask me where I got this number, can't quite remember
You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.
You can replace the same scenario with a pick-up truck and Seoul.
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 12, 2014, 05:24:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Did I convince any of you?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 12, 2014, 05:41:40 pm
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 12, 2014, 05:44:54 pm
Post by: Chaoswizkid on February 12, 2014, 05:53:53 pm
Assuming an invasion of SK-US joint operation, and with the knowledge or at least very credible assumption that NK has nuclear weapons,Anti missile weaponry isn't perfect. Even the best systems only have a 75%-80% success rate* for intercepting missile weaponry. After all, a ballistic weapon is pretty stealthy, once the burn stage has been completed.
Situation 1: NK launches nuclear warheads using missiles.
Result: Mobile missile defense, which would be deployed using the above assumption, would neutralize the missiles. It is unlikely this system would be overwhelmed as the NK likely does not have enough missiles or nuclear warheads.
*Don't ask me where I got this number, can't quite remember
Wish you could remember though. I'm wondering if that does apply to ballistic weaponry or not, what era of missile defense it is (because I'm absolutely positive we have stuff now in that category that the public is unaware of), etc.
You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.
I would be very, very, very, very surprised if the NK had any submarine that did not sound like a barn full of farm animals being set on fire on sonar, and considering everyone tries to keep tabs on everyone else's subs, even in today's age, we'll likely have sonar listening posts nearby (esp. due to Russia's proximity. Cold War-era sonar stations, even if they haven't been upgraded since, should still identify anything the NK has).
Still, suicide bombing is a valid option, since
You can replace the same scenario with a pick-up truck and Seoul.is definitely possible, too.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 12, 2014, 05:55:14 pm
You have a point there, I'll put that in the final draft. Not now, because I need to turn it in within ten minutes.Good luck!
Post by: Sheb on February 13, 2014, 09:01:23 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 13, 2014, 09:54:44 am
IIRC (I probably don't), that was for ballistic weaponry intercepted during it's initial launch phase. Afterwards, success changes are far lower. And I think I saw it in some article concerning the European missile shield, so it's rather recent.Assuming an invasion of SK-US joint operation, and with the knowledge or at least very credible assumption that NK has nuclear weapons,Anti missile weaponry isn't perfect. Even the best systems only have a 75%-80% success rate* for intercepting missile weaponry. After all, a ballistic weapon is pretty stealthy, once the burn stage has been completed.
Situation 1: NK launches nuclear warheads using missiles.
Result: Mobile missile defense, which would be deployed using the above assumption, would neutralize the missiles. It is unlikely this system would be overwhelmed as the NK likely does not have enough missiles or nuclear warheads.
*Don't ask me where I got this number, can't quite remember
Wish you could remember though. I'm wondering if that does apply to ballistic weaponry or not, what era of missile defense it is (because I'm absolutely positive we have stuff now in that category that the public is unaware of), etc.
North Korea has pretty stealthy submarines. They're even exporting these. Still, these are <300 ton midget submarines, so I doubt one could fit a nuke in there. Their larger submarines are the Romeo class, which are about 50 years out of date. However, depending on how deep they can go, they can pass under the thermocline, and maybe even much deeper than that. Sonar doesn't work that great at large depths, and since most submarines have to come closer to fire, most of the anti submarine weaponry is tuned to do so. A nuclear bomb detonated 300 meters below sea level is still a threat (IIRC), but I doubt much ASW gear can reach them there.You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.
I would be very, very, very, very surprised if the NK had any submarine that did not sound like a barn full of farm animals being set on fire on sonar, and considering everyone tries to keep tabs on everyone else's subs, even in today's age, we'll likely have sonar listening posts nearby (esp. due to Russia's proximity. Cold War-era sonar stations, even if they haven't been upgraded since, should still identify anything the NK has).
For a reference, Iron Dome is about 90% effective. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome#Effectiveness) Probably the best system on the market right now.Not really. Asides from the small minority report on Wikipedia that states that the effectiveness (defined as warhead destruction in this case) is only 5% , the Iron dome is optimized for Quassam rockets. It would perform significantly worse if ever confronted with a more sophisticated missile.
Post by: mainiac on February 13, 2014, 10:07:48 am
You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.
You can replace the same scenario with a pick-up truck and Seoul.
If you drive a nuke through a checkpoint, the radiation detectors will go off like crazy. And it's not like you can sneak in a 2000 ton water tank to hide the radiation. So the land route is a no-go.
The problem with the suicide sub idea is that you really need a nuclear sub to make it work. Give the north koreans maybe another 60-70 years and they'll have a nuclear sub. Until then they're stuck with diesel-electric subs that need to be within snorkel range of the surface to move very far without running out of O2 for the crew and engines. So they can't get 15 miles out from a US surface group, drop to 300 meters then sail underneath, they'd need to surface close enough to the surface group there is no way they could be missed, even in the most peaceful of peacetimes.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 13, 2014, 10:15:14 am
As for the checkpoint, can't you simply bypass that. I mean, North Korea has plenty of ways to smuggle things into South Korea (Tunnels, submarines) and I doubt every major city entrance has checkpoints.
Post by: Sheb on February 13, 2014, 10:15:14 am
Also, their midget submarins have a range of ~50 nm (90 km) submerged. Seems enough to me.
Post by: mainiac on February 13, 2014, 10:24:40 am
There are other forms of air independent propulsion, though North Korea has none of them, and doesn't have the tech to develop them either.
As for the checkpoint, can't you simply bypass that. I mean, North Korea has plenty of ways to smuggle things into South Korea (Tunnels, submarines) and I doubt every major city entrance has checkpoints.
Sure I mean you could, theoretically, do those things. But the North Koreans seem no more capable of those things then they are of the suicide sub strategy.
Also, their midget submarins have a range of ~50 nm (90 km) submerged. Seems enough to me.
Is that submerged at 300m or is that submerged at snorkel depth?
Post by: Culise on February 13, 2014, 10:34:15 am
That's why you don't bring it through checkpoints; you use an incursion tunnel like the four that South Korea's already discovered. They're big enough to admit an entire infantry division in an hour, so driving a single nuclear device through would be easy (at least, relative to sneaking it through the most heavily-militarized border in the entire world).You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.
You can replace the same scenario with a pick-up truck and Seoul.
If you drive a nuke through a checkpoint, the radiation detectors will go off like crazy. And it's not like you can sneak in a 2000 ton water tank to hide the radiation. So the land route is a no-go.
The problem with the suicide sub idea is that you really need a nuclear sub to make it work. Give the north koreans maybe another 60-70 years and they'll have a nuclear sub. Until then they're stuck with diesel-electric subs that need to be within snorkel range of the surface to move very far without running out of O2 for the crew and engines. So they can't get 15 miles out from a US surface group, drop to 300 meters then sail underneath, they'd need to surface close enough to the surface group there is no way they could be missed, even in the most peaceful of peacetimes.
EDIT:
Really, though, the biggest threat I think a North Korean warhead poses is essentially a nuclear landmine. This actually defends them against a potential Chinese incursion as well - it was only a couple short decades ago that China was expressing its displeasure with certain neighbours by the use of military force (India, Vietnam, and the USSR; relations with the first two are still sour, though they've patched things up with Russia), and China has not been pleased at all by DPRK behaviour in the last few years. Basically, since the terrain in North Korea limits the viable paths for an invasion force, they can bury one under the road to Pyongyang and watch the fireworks as a sort of "last hurrah."
Post by: FearfulJesuit on February 13, 2014, 10:41:23 am
Post by: Sheb on February 13, 2014, 10:48:33 am
Post by: FearfulJesuit on February 13, 2014, 10:50:32 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 13, 2014, 10:56:28 am
Post by: FearfulJesuit on February 13, 2014, 10:57:54 am
Not really. The main problem with smuggling the nuke are radiation detectors, and both the dirty bomb and the real nuke would set off the sensors. The dirty bomb probably even more so than the real one.
Is there any reason, really, why NK couldn't use a giant-ass cannon or slingshot to send a nuke into Seoul?
Post by: martinuzz on February 13, 2014, 10:59:04 am
Combining the wisdom of Old, with the technology of New!
Let's call it the Nuke-a-pult!
Post by: Sheb on February 13, 2014, 11:00:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 13, 2014, 11:04:18 am
They don't have such a thing.Not really. The main problem with smuggling the nuke are radiation detectors, and both the dirty bomb and the real nuke would set off the sensors. The dirty bomb probably even more so than the real one.
Is there any reason, really, why NK couldn't use a giant-ass cannon or slingshot to send a nuke into Seoul?
The other reason is that nukes are rather fragile things.
Post by: martinuzz on February 13, 2014, 11:06:05 am
A nuke's electronic systems might be relatively fragile, yeah. (Yet sturdy enough to survive being launched on a ballistic platform)They don't have such a thing.Not really. The main problem with smuggling the nuke are radiation detectors, and both the dirty bomb and the real nuke would set off the sensors. The dirty bomb probably even more so than the real one.
Is there any reason, really, why NK couldn't use a giant-ass cannon or slingshot to send a nuke into Seoul?
The other reason is that nukes are rather fragile things.
A dirty bomb, however, is basically nothing more than a container with explosives and nuclear waste. Nothing fragile there.
Post by: mainiac on February 13, 2014, 11:10:25 am
That's why you don't bring it through checkpoints; you use an incursion tunnel like the four that South Korea's already discovered. They're big enough to admit an entire infantry division in an hour, so driving a single nuclear device through would be easy (at least, relative to sneaking it through the most heavily-militarized border in the entire world).
1) We aren't talking about the KGB or CIA pulling off an operation like this, we're talking about the North Korean intelligence. They don't have a proven history of doing complicated operations
2) This is a complicated operation. You are taking a truck way bigger then anything commonly found in north or south korea and getting it from the middle of nowhere to a populated area. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
3) US and SK intelligence has a good track record when it comes to tracking fissile materials in NK. They've also caught north koreans doing much less complicated things in the past. So the chance of detection before the truck even turns on it's engines is pretty high.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, I just dont think it's good plan for the North Koreans. Their odds are better just putting the nuke in a missile and hoping the counter missile measures fail.
Post by: Culise on February 13, 2014, 11:21:17 am
Yeah; that's why I added my own caveats on the most probable use for a nuclear device in an edit. I honestly don't even think there are any incursion tunnels on that scale left right now; the fourth and most recent one was discovered in 1990. It'd also have to be set up well in advance with sleeper agents, since an invasion would almost certainly render the tunnels unusable in the opening volleys due to their proximity to the warzone (all of the tunnels emerge within the DMZ, albeit beyond the demarcation line), and that would add the significant risk of those agents being turned by the general prosperity available in the south; given the number of people who have done a runner across the DMZ, even cherry-picked agents who are already in the ROK would likely be at far greater risk of turning since they don't have that risk involved.That's why you don't bring it through checkpoints; you use an incursion tunnel like the four that South Korea's already discovered. They're big enough to admit an entire infantry division in an hour, so driving a single nuclear device through would be easy (at least, relative to sneaking it through the most heavily-militarized border in the entire world).
1) We aren't talking about the KGB or CIA pulling off an operation like this, we're talking about the North Korean intelligence. They don't have a proven history of doing complicated operations
2) This is a complicated operation. You are taking a truck way bigger then anything commonly found in north or south korea and getting it from the middle of nowhere to a populated area. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
3) US and SK intelligence has a good track record when it comes to tracking fissile materials in NK. They've also caught north koreans doing much less complicated things in the past. So the chance of detection before the truck even turns on it's engines is pretty high.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, I just dont think it's good plan for the North Koreans. Their odds are better just putting the nuke in a missile and hoping the counter missile measures fail.
Besides, they already have Seoul as a hostage to conventional artillery, at least theoretically. There isn't much more they need do to enhance that, other than building an Atomic Annie at a significant cost compared to the resources available to them domestically (there's no way China would encourage their nuclear ambitions further, given how much of an embarrassment P'yongyang has already been to them) as was alluded to earlier in the thread, or as you say, mounting the warheads on an upscaled Nodong or Taepodong.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 13, 2014, 12:34:38 pm
You're also forgetting the chance for Nuclear suicide bombing. Place a nuke in a submarine, float it under the closest US fleet (Sub will go undetected as it can stay deep in the water, and doesn't need to open hatches to fire it's torpedo's, for example) and detonate. A few weapons detonated in such fashion can eliminate concentrated US fleet presence in the near Pacific.Much cheaper to just use torpedoes or detonate the subs under expensive ships like carriers with conventional explosives.
Also read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baengnyeong_incident
Murikans and SKans think a midget submarine may have destroyed an anti-sub corvette with a torpedo, cleaved in two when the explosion created a massive bubble underneath it. This massive bubble plays havoc with the pressures around the ship and are one of the worst case scenarios for a warship sailing over a landmine.
Plus, who's to say they would even use a submarine?
'North Korea is reportedly developing nuclear sea mines with an eye toward neutralizing the naval supremacy of the U.S. and other countries in the event of a conflict.' (http://www.stripes.com/news/u-s-military-enters-new-generation-of-sea-mine-warfare-1.143170)
Post by: mainiac on February 13, 2014, 01:56:32 pm
Plus, who's to say they would even use a submarine?
'North Korea is reportedly developing nuclear sea mines with an eye toward neutralizing the naval supremacy of the U.S. and other countries in the event of a conflict.' (http://www.stripes.com/news/u-s-military-enters-new-generation-of-sea-mine-warfare-1.143170)
A nuclear sea mine would act as a deterrent to slow the SK and US navies down (hidden among a forest of non-nuclear mines). But it's not an offensive weapon and certainly can't be a first strike. There's still no way to get it into position. Now if they could get their hands on a nuclear submarine to deploy the thing, it's a pretty scary weapon.
Post by: martinuzz on February 13, 2014, 02:12:23 pm
Thank you for all the fish.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 13, 2014, 06:08:22 pm
A nuclear sea mine would act as a deterrent to slow the SK and US navies down (hidden among a forest of non-nuclear mines). But it's not an offensive weapon and certainly can't be a first strike. There's still no way to get it into position. Now if they could get their hands on a nuclear submarine to deploy the thing, it's a pretty scary weapon.A nuclear sea mine would very well be able to destroy an invasion fleet. Park it in the Yellow Sea or the Sea of Japan and an invasion will not happen. It serves its purpose in denying the entire area to any other fleets. If they could get their hands on a nuclear submarine, forget the fleets - the NK Navy would now have the ability to park a nuke right next to belligerent countries and that's a whole other scenario.
Nuclear Sea Mines would allow the dolphin hive mind to send suicide bumping whales to end the world....Japan gets nuked for the third time, everyone blames North Korea. Too late does humanity notice the significance of the targets. Then Norway and the Faroe Islands are devoured in a sea of fins, and everything changes when the dolphins attack. End game scenario.
Thank you for all the fish.
Post by: Powder Miner on February 13, 2014, 09:45:15 pm
Post by: Culise on February 13, 2014, 09:51:49 pm
In an ironic twist of fate, Nebraska and Wyoming become the post-apoc USA's greatest population centers.
Yes, and Wyoming shall lead the Great War of Revenge against the dolphins with their mighty aircraft carrier (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinunderhill/2012/02/28/wyoming-to-consider-buying-an-aircraft-carrier/). *cough*
Post by: mainiac on February 13, 2014, 09:53:43 pm
A nuclear sea mine would act as a deterrent to slow the SK and US navies down (hidden among a forest of non-nuclear mines). But it's not an offensive weapon and certainly can't be a first strike. There's still no way to get it into position. Now if they could get their hands on a nuclear submarine to deploy the thing, it's a pretty scary weapon.A nuclear sea mine would very well be able to destroy an invasion fleet. Park it in the Yellow Sea or the Sea of Japan and an invasion will not happen.
So... you agree with me...?
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2014, 07:06:57 am
So... you agree with me...?You put too much emphasis on a suicide sub attacking an invasion fleet, which I find would be a lot more impractical than detonating one nuclear mine and saying there's more, whether there's more or not.
Post by: Sheb on February 14, 2014, 08:25:41 am
Post by: Helgoland on February 14, 2014, 08:30:09 am
The real problem is avoiding having it disabled beforehand.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 14, 2014, 08:32:22 am
please deliver more information regarding this subject
Post by: Helgoland on February 14, 2014, 08:47:14 am
For use against the US and SK navies you'd probably put it in the likely invasion routes; off the shore near Pyongyang or something.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on February 14, 2014, 09:59:34 am
also, this 'ere article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_sea) claims that there are offshore oil deposits that belong to best korea, with the only source being some russian article but a quick googlerizing says that the geology is "favorable for oil formation" so it might or might not be a thing already
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2014, 10:38:51 am
But then with a mine you need a lot of them to make sure that the enemy fleet will likely go over it.Or they could put it anywhere between Busan, Shanghai and Qingdao. Then they could just flood the seas with regular drifting mines through the black tide currents and pray that no minesweepers can find the radioactive needle in the minestack.
Seems like only something they could do with an abundance of nukes. An invasion-warranting scenario is if North Korea just one day announced they had the capabilities to destroy world sea lanes at a whim, or were seeking for such capabilities.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 20, 2014, 05:36:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sinistar on February 21, 2014, 04:50:44 am
I'm asking because I do not know how long your paper should be or even for what purpose you are doing it. I apologize if you explained that in earlier pages, I do not follow this thread much.
I do not agree on the conclusion though. However, I am not trying to persuade you to change what you have written. Just presenting my point of view, so hear me out:
If we consider the possibility that entire country is brainwashed to the point of people willing to sacrifice themselves without second thought, then an armed intervention would be counter-productive. Forget the speculations that NK's army may-or-may-not have obsolete equipment, forget the technologically superior SK/USA/China's army, forget the nukes. If attack is made on the whole country that has been living in a fear that one day such attack would happen, then you have the whole country to fight. WILLING to fight to the bitter end. Such conflict would not only be long and bloody but if successful for the invaders, one wonders what would there be left in the end?
That is, of course, in the case that whole cult of personality is as strong as suggested. Given the existence of mentioned defects, NK's occasional interactions with pro-West world (family reunions, occasional piece of "western" music/video/art to be allowed etc.), it makes one think the regime's hold on it's people CAN be broken or at least the people are willing to accept more "non-NK" values. In that case, open war is still a gamble - should invasion take place, maybe some people will join the invaders? Maybe whole country will embrace them, once (if) the ruling party falls?
But what if none of that happens? What if a still large enough number of blindly loyal people remain? For how long will eventual guerrilla warfare/terrorism activities last in such country? For what cost?
And lastly, is a head-on assault of a nuclear armed nation even a smart thing to do?
Surely, with all that being said, question of how to "deal" with NK presents itself.
Wait for regime to collapse? Help it collapse? That might be the wrong way to see the problem. The problem itself is not the regime, it's the people who believe in it. If that is (on a nation-wide scale) just a small number of people, military intervention might be possible, if extremely risky solution. But on a larger scale? Taking Jonestown for example - most died willingly, correct? If army/trained assassins stormed the place with sole mission of killing Jim Jones, do you think his followers would not do the same?
Taking down a regime people not believe in is as simple as eliminating people who hold the power. Taking the one mass amount of people believe in or even support to a fanatical degree is another story.
On a slightly less serious, more jubilant note - Beloved Leader fights Imperialist pigs on a pegasus, rainbows staple food for every party member. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25816000)
Post by: tahujdt on February 21, 2014, 08:13:40 am
I am a horrible person.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 21, 2014, 09:25:49 am
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 21, 2014, 09:30:24 am
As a second draft I'm going to edit the essay again. I have until monday to finish it.
I am a horrible person.
I am to for laughing at it.
Post by: MagmaMcFry on February 21, 2014, 09:41:45 am
South Korea is going to hack Best Korea's nuclear facilities. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26287527)Okay, what? Are they trying to start a war now? Why the fuck did they announce that?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 21, 2014, 09:47:25 am
Post by: Sinistar on February 21, 2014, 10:01:04 am
Overall, I think it's a very good essay. Jonestown is a nice example for a topic you are writing about.
I realize I don't offer any real solution to the problem, I only argue about usage of military force. When I was writing my reply I was, for some reason, under the impression you advocate immediate war on NK, but after reading your essay again - you never said that! So maybe I did sound a bit negative about your conclusion and I do apologize for that. ;)
Do let us know how it turns out though!
As for this:
South Korea is going to hack Best Korea's nuclear facilities. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26287527)I...cannot see this as anything else as empty threats and propaganda from South. I mean, why would they publicly announce they are preparing an attack against them? To scare them? Come on, NK will just retaliate back with it's own propaganda machine.
Maybe they are trying to pull some reverse-psychology trick and convince NK they WON'T actually do this but they will? But then NK will still blame them.
Unless of course, the cyberattack will be followed by an
But all that is just too silly.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on February 21, 2014, 10:04:28 am
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 21, 2014, 10:09:47 am
Well, he's supposed to be writing an essay in favor of an invasion, so...
That was the original intent, since then it has morphed into an essay advocating decisive intervention. A few paragraphs may seem a little at odds with that, so I'll have to change them some.
Beast Tamer, I hope my opinion didn't sound too critical. :)
Overall, I think it's a very good essay. Jonestown is a nice example for a topic you are writing about.
I realize I don't offer any real solution to the problem, I only argue about usage of military force. When I was writing my reply I was, for some reason, under the impression you advocate immediate war on NK, but after reading your essay again - you never said that! So maybe I did sound a bit negative about your conclusion and I do apologize for that. ;)
Do let us know how it turns out though!
Any feedback is appreciated, especially that which helps me improve my essay. Will post third draft once finished.
Post by: Beast Tamer on February 24, 2014, 01:27:49 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 24, 2014, 02:35:45 pm
Which way does the wind blow in North Korea? If its north then in the event of a nuclear detonation wouldn't most of the fallout go in China's direction?In the Summer it blows into Japan and China. In the Winter it blows into South Korea and the coast of Japan.
Post by: Helgoland on February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 pm
Which way does the wind blow in North Korea?Forward, comrade!
Damn, I'm too late for that joke...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 27, 2014, 08:58:38 pm
Post by: Descan on March 27, 2014, 09:21:06 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on March 27, 2014, 11:51:17 pm
It's North Korea, coming at you once again! (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26747649) Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to take this article's picture and caption it to show the thoughts of the people in it.Those poor bastards.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on March 28, 2014, 06:58:43 am
The time has come when action rather than speech is required. Eighteen months ago on this forum I prayed that the responsibility might not fall upon me to ask this country to accept the awful arbitrament of war. I fear that I may not be able to avoid that responsibility. But, at any rate, I cannot wish for conditions in which such a burden should fall upon me in which I should feel clearer than I do today as to where my duty lies.
No man can say that the Government could have done more to try to keep open the way for an honorable and equitable settlement of the dispute between Kim Jong-Un and
Now that all the relevant documents are being made public we shall stand at the bar of history knowing that the responsibility for this terrible catastrophe lies on the shoulders of one man, the North Korean
We shall enter it with a clear conscience, with the support of the Dominions and the New Zealand Empire, and the moral approval of the greater part of the world.
We have no quarrel with the North Korean people, except that they allow themselves to be governed by a stodgy Government. As long as that Government exists and pursues the methods it has so persistently followed during the last two years, there will be no peace in Europe. We shall merely pass from one crisis to another, and see one country after another attacked by methods which have now become familiar to us in their sickening technique.
We are resolved that these methods must come to an end. If out of the struggle we again re-establish in the world the rules of good faith and the renunciation of terribad hair styles, why, then even the sacrifices that will be entailed upon us will find their fullest justification.
Post by: martinuzz on March 28, 2014, 08:34:46 am
Post by: IronTomato on March 28, 2014, 08:37:40 am
That said, my caption is:
"We are all brothers, and sisters. We are the same.
Don't be different."
Post by: mainiac on March 28, 2014, 08:45:28 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on March 28, 2014, 03:44:17 pm
Post by: mainiac on March 28, 2014, 04:09:12 pm
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on March 28, 2014, 05:02:15 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on April 06, 2014, 06:36:12 am
Originally, EastEnders was to be shown in North Korea alongside Doctor Who and Teletubbies (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538068/North-Koreas-oppressive-regime-allow-Teletubbies-Doctor-Who-EastEnders-shown-state-run-TV-BBC-deal-agreed.html), but apparently North Korean statesmen thought that Top Gear is better.
(http://i.imgur.com/TjwM6rd.jpg)
Post by: Darvi on April 06, 2014, 07:06:21 am
Two of my favourite shows right there.
Post by: tahujdt on April 06, 2014, 08:20:40 am
I think this is the first time that I've agreed with a North Korean statesman on anything.Top Gear and Teletubbies?
Two of my favourite shows right there.
Post by: Darvi on April 06, 2014, 08:27:27 am
Post by: Mech#4 on April 06, 2014, 08:32:21 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 06, 2014, 06:26:13 pm
According to people who frequently visit North Korea, reports about mandatory Kim Jong-un haircuts are probably fake (http://www.theguardian.com/world/feedarticle/11266476).In 2005, however, the government waged war against men with long hair, calling them unhygienic anti-socialist fools and directing them to wear their hair "socialist style."
And here we see the common Nork hippy, on its migratory flight to protest against its overbearing socialist government in favour of free markets and democracy...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 27, 2014, 07:33:41 pm
Post by: Steelmagic on April 27, 2014, 07:48:11 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 27, 2014, 07:55:49 pm
I was looking around reddit recently, when I read a comment saying that s/he had been banned from somewhere for writing something in a thread. The somewhere? /r/Pyongyang (http://www.reddit.com/r/Pyongyang) Note: No downvote option. And they are very, very thorough about deleting.
Post by: Osmosis Jones on May 04, 2014, 05:50:25 am
I was looking around reddit recently, when I read a comment saying that s/he had been banned from somewhere for writing something in a thread. The somewhere? /r/Pyongyang (http://www.reddit.com/r/Pyongyang) Note: No downvote option. And they are very, very thorough about deleting.
You know that /r/Pyongyang is a joke (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/rpyongyang), right? Think sort of like The Onion.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 04, 2014, 07:13:10 pm
You heard me. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/27/north-korea-attacks-south-president-park-geun-hye-obama)
Quote
She said that while North Korea always attacked its southern neighbour's politicians, the "loud, personalised" tone of recent abuse seemed to echo the approach of the 1950s and early 60s. It might be part of emphasising his likeness to his grandfather, with a return to "proletarian candour", she said.As political strategies go, "let's emulate the 50s" is not one I'm optimistic of.
I am now picturing Obama in a pimp hat.You weren't previously?
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 14, 2014, 05:27:55 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on May 14, 2014, 05:38:24 am
time to signal boost this motherfucker
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2014, 06:05:15 am
There's a game in development about Kim Jong-un single-handedly defending the DPRK against an American invasion. It's American, though. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j8_X-9AIG-c)YES
YES
YES
Post by: miauw62 on May 14, 2014, 06:39:13 am
Post by: BFEL on May 14, 2014, 07:17:50 am
Check it out.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 14, 2014, 12:58:04 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 14, 2014, 01:07:54 pm
Spoiler: Some screenshots from the official site (click to show/hide)
Post by: Steelmagic on May 14, 2014, 01:11:26 pm
This is amazing. This may be the only game with Kim Jong-Un riding a flaming unicorn while fighting U.S. troops.
Post by: miauw62 on May 14, 2014, 01:14:58 pm
i NEED this game.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on May 14, 2014, 01:15:47 pm
So player two is Dennis Rodman I suppose?...as well as the only game with KJU fighting the Statue of Liberty on an aircraft carrier.
This is amazing. This may be the only game with Kim Jong-Un riding a flaming unicorn while fighting U.S. troops.
Post by: Powder Miner on May 14, 2014, 03:48:24 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on May 14, 2014, 03:50:40 pm
Post by: hops on May 15, 2014, 05:49:44 am
Also if it was made in North Korea then the game wouldn't work.
Post by: Darvi on May 15, 2014, 05:57:06 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2014, 08:52:20 am
It's certainly an interesting place. They sell North Korean liquor there as some of the very limited trade between the two, and one of my classmates bought a bottle. No word on how it tasted, or if they've even drunk it yet.
The fake North Korean DMZ village was quite the sight, complete with a flag-pole of true Best Korean Glory. Sure enough, the binoculars revealed no living person in the whole area.
I also got to go down into Tunnel Three, which was not a fun experience at all, as Best Korea built it to funnel their troops. Crouching. As a large American man, it was not an easy crouch-walk. Quite the workout.
Post by: Skyrunner on May 27, 2014, 09:30:46 am
The mines are pretty creepy. They managed to dig that far without being detected for a very long time. Some conspiracy theorists believe that North Korea is digging ever deeper tunnels even now, undetected by seismic gauges of the S.Koreans . . . . I doubt it, though, seeing that the tunnels were dug when North Korea was better off than it is today.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2014, 09:36:14 am
Post by: Skyrunner on May 27, 2014, 09:42:20 am
Post by: Frumple on May 27, 2014, 10:00:20 am
Post by: Sheb on May 27, 2014, 10:02:11 am
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 27, 2014, 10:03:46 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 27, 2014, 10:05:02 am
Post by: Sheb on May 27, 2014, 10:06:10 am
Post by: Tellemurius on May 27, 2014, 10:20:37 am
This discussion get much more interesting to read if we pretend we're talking about our sex lives.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: gigaraptor487 on May 27, 2014, 10:33:10 am
This discussion get much more interesting to read if we pretend we're talking about our sex lives.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2014, 01:51:47 pm
Post by: miauw62 on May 27, 2014, 01:59:52 pm
Just fill the tunnels with bees.FTFY
Post by: Eotyrannus on May 27, 2014, 02:01:25 pm
No, not the bees. The answer is never bees. Wasps are much better.Just fill the tunnels with bees.FTFY
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2014, 02:02:58 pm
Not the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his hubris, just like mosquitos.Just fill the tunnels with bees.FTFY
Post by: nenjin on May 27, 2014, 02:03:56 pm
Post by: miauw62 on May 27, 2014, 02:24:10 pm
Post by: uber pye on May 27, 2014, 06:40:22 pm
Not the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his hubris, just like mosquitos.Just fill the tunnels with bees.FTFY
if we wanna go full eco-Terrorist, use africanized honey bees and clear out a good ten miles
Post by: Helgoland on May 27, 2014, 06:48:31 pm
Post by: Frumple on May 27, 2014, 06:53:30 pm
Post by: nenjin on May 27, 2014, 06:59:14 pm
Delayed poison, huh? Sneaky. And particularly cruel, especially in the form of food. Make a hope for better times bring the end. Nasty stuff there, Helgo.
Alternatively, just load the food into a cannon? It really cuts to the heart of both matters.
Post by: Darvi on May 27, 2014, 07:04:21 pm
Post by: Pnx on May 27, 2014, 07:13:15 pm
I've heard that the current theory with NK tunnels, is that rather than digging them straight into SK territory, they dig them partially into the DMZ then leave them like that with equipment to rapidly finish the tunnel in a matter of hours of war breaking out.
Though I'm not sure how feasible that actually is.
Post by: Helgoland on May 27, 2014, 07:14:52 pm
Post by: Darvi on May 27, 2014, 07:17:59 pm
Post by: Korbac on May 27, 2014, 07:21:48 pm
Shhh, you do know the NSA is monitoring us and probably taking offense to that, right?
I don't know what the NSA is, but I'm sure there's a lot more pressing things they could have taken offense to rather than that. :P
Post by: nenjin on May 27, 2014, 07:32:53 pm
Shhh, you do know the NSA is monitoring us and probably taking offense to that, right?
I don't know what the NSA is
Oh but they know what you are.
*eyes narrow*
Quote
but I'm sure there's a lot more pressing things they could have taken offense to rather than that.
Yep. You clearly have no idea who they are.
Post by: Korbac on May 27, 2014, 07:45:50 pm
Shhh, you do know the NSA is monitoring us and probably taking offense to that, right?
I don't know what the NSA is
Oh but they know what you are.
*eyes narrow*Quotebut I'm sure there's a lot more pressing things they could have taken offense to rather than that.
Yep. You clearly have no idea who they are.
Are you seriously telling me that, out of all the posts in all the threads in all the boards in these forums, THAT was the worst we've got?
Because yes, of course it is. Totally. We're very low - key here. Nothing to see. XD
Post by: Skyrunner on May 27, 2014, 08:32:25 pm
-_- screw you, our native, timid honeybees are already stuggling against non-africanized Murrican bees.Not the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his hubris, just like mosquitos.Just fill the tunnels with bees.FTFY
if we wanna go full eco-Terrorist, use africanized honey bees and clear out a good ten miles
Post by: Hubris Incalculable on May 27, 2014, 09:40:13 pm
Not the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his Hubris, just like mosquitos.HEY!
Post by: nenjin on May 27, 2014, 10:29:28 pm
Not the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his Hubris, just like mosquitos.HEY!
Your parents are totally going to get stung. :/
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on May 27, 2014, 10:49:18 pm
Spoiler: Meanwhile, in pyongyang (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 28, 2014, 01:18:02 am
Much as I love insects, getting back on topic...The tunnels are hundreds of meters below the surface, carved through bedrock in a tight space with sub-optimal tools. Fast work it ain't. North Korea could be fully conquered by the time they finished going over the demarcation line, much less before the DMZ is taken.
I've heard that the current theory with NK tunnels, is that rather than digging them straight into SK territory, they dig them partially into the DMZ then leave them like that with equipment to rapidly finish the tunnel in a matter of hours of war breaking out.
Though I'm not sure how feasible that actually is.
Post by: Skyrunner on May 28, 2014, 01:34:41 am
Post by: hops on May 28, 2014, 01:46:38 am
FTFFYJust fill the tunnels with birds.FTFY
Post by: LordSlowpoke on May 28, 2014, 01:48:16 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 28, 2014, 01:51:41 am
so how do we know msh is not a best korean agent nowWe don't. Let's try a simple tests.
All hail, Kim Jong Un
Post by: LordSlowpoke on May 28, 2014, 01:54:21 am
Post by: hops on May 28, 2014, 01:55:07 am
Post by: Mech#4 on May 28, 2014, 01:57:19 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 28, 2014, 03:17:07 am
Viva El Presidente!Found the Tropican!
Post by: IronTomato on May 28, 2014, 06:56:02 am
Post by: Arx on May 28, 2014, 06:59:20 am
Post by: Descan on May 28, 2014, 08:52:50 am
Woo.
Post by: IronTomato on May 28, 2014, 11:35:29 am
You will be assimilated./me waves a tiny Scot-Canadian flag.Dammit, Descan! You had ONE JOB!
Woo.
/me presses his mouth to Descan's ear
NOOOOORRRRTH KOOOOOOREEEEEAAAAAA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 28, 2014, 06:39:38 pm
INCALCULABLE WASPSNot the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his Hubris, just like mosquitos.HEY!
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
Post by: MaximumZero on May 28, 2014, 10:59:26 pm
Wasps can divide by zero?INCALCULABLE WASPSNot the bees, bees are much friendlier. Wasps are Satan's angels here to punish man for his Hubris, just like mosquitos.HEY!
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
Post by: Frumple on May 28, 2014, 11:00:54 pm
Post by: Frumple on May 29, 2014, 07:49:01 pm
Which I guess in relation to the thread makes Kim Lord of the Wasps? All the more reason to bring the monster down.
Post by: Playergamer on May 29, 2014, 07:52:55 pm
Post by: Worldmaster27 on May 29, 2014, 07:55:11 pm
The new four horsemen of the apocalypse are wasps, mosquitoes, slow internet and useless tech support.I have an irresistible urge to sig this.
Post by: Darvi on May 29, 2014, 08:00:17 pm
Post by: Worldmaster27 on May 29, 2014, 08:08:05 pm
I like getting sigged. It's like a meme that's actually clever.I removed the the quote I had from you to make room for greatorder's.
Would that be like a bad meme?
Post by: hops on May 29, 2014, 08:36:04 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2014, 04:08:47 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on June 02, 2014, 08:16:36 am
I thought it was a keyboard joke?Sigs at their best are statements of value, telling you that you have said some wisdom worthy of preserving. Sigs at their worst are immortalised trophies to you accidentally making a penis joke. Long shall we remember the fap fap fap, long shall it live on.To be fair, it was a masturbation joke.
Post by: Darvi on June 02, 2014, 10:24:27 am
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2014, 10:30:48 am
Post by: Fniff on June 02, 2014, 10:49:21 am
Post by: Helgoland on June 02, 2014, 10:54:35 am
Link/retelling?Keyboard/masturbation joke. Unintentional one. VERY unintentional.I thought it was a keyboard joke?Sigs at their best are statements of value, telling you that you have said some wisdom worthy of preserving. Sigs at their worst are immortalised trophies to you accidentally making a penis joke. Long shall we remember the fap fap fap, long shall it live on.To be fair, it was a masturbation joke.
Post by: Sheb on June 02, 2014, 11:01:52 am
Post by: tahujdt on June 03, 2014, 08:21:00 am
He though 'fap' was the sound one makes when typing and spent half a page proclaiming loud and clear that he was fapping like there's no tomorrow like a real fapmaster.Link?
Post by: IronTomato on June 04, 2014, 11:49:24 am
Right now ploxHe though 'fap' was the sound one makes when typing and spent half a page proclaiming loud and clear that he was fapping like there's no tomorrow like a real fapmaster.Link?
Post by: Arx on June 04, 2014, 12:29:48 pm
Also this took me ages to find. Aaaaages.
Post by: Darvi on June 04, 2014, 01:04:29 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 05, 2014, 11:11:40 am
Post by: hops on June 05, 2014, 04:03:36 pm
Okay, even that made me blush from second-hand embarrassment.
Post by: Fniff on June 05, 2014, 05:11:23 pm
I can now look at that incident all the way through.
Albeit whilst cringing like I have stomach cramps.
Props to you. If something like that happened to me, I would probably never go on the forum ever again.
Post by: WealthyRadish on June 05, 2014, 05:43:08 pm
Post by: Darvi on June 05, 2014, 05:46:22 pm
I concur. It shows more integrity than most pubic figures. I can seriously respect that.I can now look at that incident all the way through.
Albeit whilst cringing like I have stomach cramps.
Props to you. If something like that happened to me, I would probably never go on the forum ever again.
Post by: Gatleos on June 05, 2014, 05:56:45 pm
Just going to assume there were no typos here.I concur. It shows more integrity than most pubic figures. I can seriously respect that.I can now look at that incident all the way through.
Albeit whilst cringing like I have stomach cramps.
Props to you. If something like that happened to me, I would probably never go on the forum ever again.
Sorry for making fun of you back then GO, it was just too good. :P
Post by: misko27 on June 05, 2014, 09:58:28 pm
No no, there could still be a god, it would just be a jackass. Wasps, bedbugs... all those sorts of critters. Wars, famine, and disease you can blame on the acts of man (the last coming from not living a godly life -- bullshit, of course, but I think that's one of the excuses I've heard before, beyond the whole "is test" thing) and the vagrancies of free will, but wasps, bedbugs, and their ilk? Those would have been explicitly designed by a creator god to breed the way they do (Note: Particularly with bedbugs, I wouldn't suggest looking it up.) and there is no way a good or benevolent being could maintain those titles while doing so. A lot like YWHW havin' a giggle and letting facehuggers loose on the world. There's no reconciling that.Can't be benevolent? Challenge accepted.
Which I guess in relation to the thread makes Kim Lord of the Wasps? All the more reason to bring the monster down.
God is can't be a jerk. If he was, you might live in, say, the Pokémon world, where you might have to deal with the noble Beedrill (http://i.imgur.com/evPYOZj.jpg) and similar pests.
Post by: tahujdt on June 06, 2014, 01:44:43 am
Post by: IronyOwl on June 06, 2014, 02:01:54 am
In that case, God would be Arceus, and more than likely crammed into an aluminium ball by an eleven-year-old.That'd actually explain a lot.
Post by: Arx on June 06, 2014, 07:19:46 am
I would make for n awesome god.
Hail greatorder; spheres: fapping, pornography, polar bears, Monday!
Also, this is totally North Korean.
Post by: Dutchling on June 06, 2014, 07:25:24 am
How did I miss that... That was the thread where I found out Scriver was male.
Post by: hops on June 07, 2014, 07:09:22 am
Post by: Sheb on June 07, 2014, 07:11:23 am
And then, one though lit my mind.
Eurovision North Korea.
Post by: hops on June 07, 2014, 08:00:53 am
Post by: Sinistar on June 07, 2014, 08:16:47 am
On other note: I've remembered a part of dreams I had today. I know we have a dream thread, but this one was NK related.
Specifically, the "glorious exploitations of our beloved leader" related... because all I can remember was Kim Jong-Un completing a project that involved a giant blimp or a zepelin...that had another, smaller blimp hanged underneath it. And under that one hanged a giant, Rodman-sang-me-a-happy-birthday level of happy Kim Jong-Un's bust.
o.O
Post by: MaximumZero on June 10, 2014, 11:49:48 pm
Thanks to Bay12's plug.dj room, I've heard at least one North Korean song... and I must say it was totally dope. Best Korea for the win.I prefer my North Korean dream.
On other note: I've remembered a part of dreams I had today. I know we have a dream thread, but this one was NK related.
Specifically, the "glorious exploitations of our beloved leader" related... because all I can remember was Kim Jong-Un completing a project that involved a giant blimp or a zepelin...that had another, smaller blimp hanged underneath it. And under that one hanged a giant, Rodman-sang-me-a-happy-birthday level of happy Kim Jong-Un's bust.
o.O
Post by: Osmosis Jones on June 24, 2014, 03:45:46 am
Even leaving aside the delightful innuendos available with that punish comment, I must admit I am bemused by the whole thing.
Oh, also
Quote from: Julie Bishop
Mr Kim could "hardly claim the legitimacy as a leader" when his regime defied international standards.*Cough*Australia'sEnvironmentalAnDAsylumSeekerPolicies*Cough**Cough*
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 24, 2014, 03:52:06 am
Post by: Arx on June 24, 2014, 03:56:39 am
Or don't. All the same to me.
NK's reaction is hardly surprising, though.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 25, 2014, 01:11:54 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 25, 2014, 01:23:37 pm
Post by: Playergamer on June 25, 2014, 01:29:57 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 25, 2014, 01:39:35 pm
This is god. (http://www.xkcd.com/29/)
you did here
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 25, 2014, 01:47:41 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 25, 2014, 02:26:32 pm
Post by: Gatleos on June 25, 2014, 07:07:59 pm
Quote
Making and releasing a movie on a plot to hurt our top-level leadership is the most blatant act of terrorism and war and will absolutely not be tolerated.Listening to NK government officials talk about anything is so surreal. Do they think this is fooling anyone outside NK? Is it just grandstanding for the "benefit" of the people? Was anyone involved with writing this official statement not brainwashed?
Also I was hoping that Kim Jong-Un would be played by James Franco before I watched the trailer.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2014, 07:16:35 pm
Listening to NK government officials talk about anything is so surreal. Do they think this is fooling anyone outside NK? Is it just grandstanding for the "benefit" of the people? Was anyone involved with writing this official statement not brainwashed?I get the feeling it's not as far from normal as it sounds. Government entities and the like have this weird tendency to say things they either know is bullshit or should know is bullshit, but it's hard to tell because they're so detached and goal-oriented. Religious or similarly predisposed entities tend to say things that don't make normal sense because they make cultural sense.
Also I was hoping that Kim Jong-Un would be played by James Franco before I watched the trailer.
So when you take NK, which is a hyper-isolated, hyper-tyrannical, hyper-Juche-oriented government that's been around a while... just the normal things governments say is likely going to be warped into Cheap Movie level dialogue all the time, as is certainly the case here. I don't know what they intend from it, but I get the feeling it might be, as government statements tend to be, not at all well thought out, whatever its purpose.
Post by: Gatleos on June 25, 2014, 07:29:51 pm
Yeah, I get what you mean. It's just extra strange with North Korea, because things that "make cultural sense" are a product of their bizarre government-by-cult. It makes you wonder where the deceit ends, or if it even does end. Jong-Un is probably just as much a victim of propaganda as the rest of them.Listening to NK government officials talk about anything is so surreal. Do they think this is fooling anyone outside NK? Is it just grandstanding for the "benefit" of the people? Was anyone involved with writing this official statement not brainwashed?I get the feeling it's not as far from normal as it sounds. Government entities and the like have this weird tendency to say things they either know is bullshit or should know is bullshit, but it's hard to tell because they're so detached and goal-oriented. Religious or similarly predisposed entities tend to say things that don't make normal sense because they make cultural sense.
Also I was hoping that Kim Jong-Un would be played by James Franco before I watched the trailer.
So when you take NK, which is a hyper-isolated, hyper-tyrannical, hyper-Juche-oriented government that's been around a while... just the normal things governments say is likely going to be warped into Cheap Movie level dialogue all the time, as is certainly the case here. I don't know what they intend from it, but I get the feeling it might be, as government statements tend to be, not at all well thought out, whatever its purpose.
Doesn't make the Bond villain act any less amusing of course.
Post by: Descan on June 25, 2014, 09:11:24 pm
Post by: Steelmagic on June 25, 2014, 09:43:42 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on June 25, 2014, 10:17:30 pm
I still wonder if anyone's pointed out to Jong-Un, or if he knows by other means, that the South Korean army has a bigger budget than his entire country... >_>I'm sure he knows. He's exploiting the US for aid by saber rattling, and that's pretty much that.
Post by: BurnedToast on June 25, 2014, 11:57:29 pm
QuoteMaking and releasing a movie on a plot to hurt our top-level leadership is the most blatant act of terrorism and war and will absolutely not be tolerated.Listening to NK government officials talk about anything is so surreal. Do they think this is fooling anyone outside NK? Is it just grandstanding for the "benefit" of the people? Was anyone involved with writing this official statement not brainwashed?
Also I was hoping that Kim Jong-Un would be played by James Franco before I watched the trailer.
Probably about 75% bullshitting the north korean people/ keeping up appearances and 25% believing their own propaganda.
Most of the top levels of society know it's pretty much complete lies... but you can't live in a society like that, surrounded by it 24/7, without coming to believe at least a little bit and having a somewhat slanted view of things. Even for kim jong un, being worshipped practically as a god by everyone you ever come into contact with is going to screw with your worldview no matter how many undeniable facts you have at your disposal.
Post by: Sheb on June 26, 2014, 01:29:12 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2014, 01:31:36 am
Post by: Sheb on June 26, 2014, 01:38:36 am
Post by: IronyOwl on June 26, 2014, 06:59:03 am
But it was still fake.Speaking of which, didn't Kim's girlfriend resurface, alive and un-anti-aircrafted? I saw an article on it, but it seemed like a somewhat dodgy site and I figured someone else would be along with the news shortly. Then I obviously forgot all about it until now.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2014, 07:00:06 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 26, 2014, 01:43:30 pm
I'm not sure if we can really rely on any of the news about people being alive or dead in North Korea. It wouldn't overly shock me if it came out that Kim-Jong Il was alive or had been murdered.A while ago, the South Korean newspaper "Chosun Ilbo" claimed that a North Korean singer and (reportedly) Kim Jong-un's ex-girlfriend Hyon Song-wol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyon_Song-wol) was executed by firing squad along with 11 other performers for making pornography videos. The execution was reportedly ordered by Kim Jong-un himself. Such a report, once again exposing the shocking brutality of North Korea's totalitarian regime was immediately reprinted and reposted by the Western media. Hyon Song-wol later on appeared on North Korean television, alive and well. (http://www.nknews.org/2014/05/north-korean-singer-that-was-executed-by-firing-squad-shows-up-alive-and-well/)
Here's an article listing some sensationalist reports about North Korea. (http://www.nknews.org/2012/12/the-top-ten-most-bizarre-rumours-to-spread-about-north-korea/)
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 27, 2014, 08:29:32 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 27, 2014, 09:15:37 pm
No one noticed North Korea's 'win' against Brazil? (http://www.chicagonow.com/my-sports-complex/2014/06/wild-world-cup-that-time-north-korea-beat-brazil/)
Scotland actually drew with Brazil once in 1974. I always support North Korea in the FIFA World Cup though.
Post by: hops on June 30, 2014, 04:04:52 pm
The fact that they haven't reacted to the video game thus means that they approve of it?Why wouldn't they approve of Kim Jong-Un riding a unicorn and taking out the US Army? :P
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 12, 2014, 10:17:40 am
Dawww
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 12, 2014, 10:28:44 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 12, 2014, 01:54:13 pm
the fuck's that supposed to show exactlySmiling Koreans
Post by: Darvi on August 18, 2014, 12:28:35 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 18, 2014, 02:26:58 am
Post by: Owlbread on August 18, 2014, 07:28:45 pm
Quote from: BBC News
There was no North Korean reaction to the visit, apart from a denial that a rocket launch on Friday was timed to coincide with his arrival. "We would like to ask the Pope why he set about his South Korean trip the day when we are making latest tactical rocket test-fire according to our regular plan, though there are a lot of days in the year," state news agency KCNA wondered.
"Hey, it's not our fault he screwed up and picked the wrong day on our schedule. He should have known better."
If the DPRK was a gentleman, during his daily parambulations his great swinging brass balls would literally clang together. Unfortunately for him those balls are all he's got.
Post by: Owlbread on August 18, 2014, 07:32:21 pm
If DPRK was a gentleman, he'd be the kind that tries covering the fact that he's got tiny genitalia by sticking a balloon down his trousers.
You're right. The brass balls would literally be that - some kind of bizarre Victorian prosthetic.
Post by: nenjin on August 18, 2014, 07:36:35 pm
Post by: Descan on August 18, 2014, 08:37:50 pm
there
someone had to say it
Post by: Owlbread on August 18, 2014, 08:40:05 pm
owlbread your avatar looks like a lumpy penis with a face
there
someone had to say it
Of course, yes. Why do you think I kept it? It makes me feel uncomfortable every time I look at it, which is great.
Post by: Fniff on August 19, 2014, 05:40:46 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on August 20, 2014, 09:47:37 am
Post by: Arx on August 20, 2014, 12:57:32 pm
The guy in question
To avoid confusion, the guy FearfulJesuit means is the person in the avatar, not the maker. I'm pretty sure I've never run for Congress.
Post by: Sinistar on September 02, 2014, 03:13:39 am
Smiling Koreans
Relevant:
Spoiler: DAAWWWWWWW :3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 02, 2014, 03:33:35 am
Also wearing branded clothesSmiling Koreans
Relevant:Spoiler: DAAWWWWWWW :3 (click to show/hide)
THE SEEDS OF CAPITALIST IMMORALITY HAVE BEEN SOWN, LIBERATION IS NIGH
Post by: Owlbread on September 11, 2014, 09:20:44 am
Quote from: Daily Telegraph
North Korea is quietly backing the Yes vote in Scotland and would be keen to increase trade with a newly independent Edinburgh, according to officials of the Pyongyang regime.
"I think that independence would be a very positive thing for Scotland," Choe Kwan-il, managing editor of the Choson Sinbo newspaper, told The Telegraph.
Supported by Pyongyang, the Tokyo-based publication provides news to an estimated 200,000 Koreans who live in Japan but swear allegiance – and send vast amounts of financial support – to North Korea.
"We have not reported on the vote in Scotland yet, but we will after it has happened," Choe said.
"I believe that every person has the right to be a member of an independent nation, to have sovereignty, to live in peace and to enjoy equality," he said. "And I believe that a majority of Scots feel the same and will vote for independence."
"I believe independence will be positive as it will encourage personal exchanges and provide both countries with business chances," said Choe. "North Korea is rich in natural resources and we like the taste of Scotch whisky, so we can be beneficial to each other."
I know I said No Telegraph in the European thread but even I have to post this.
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2014, 09:21:50 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 11, 2014, 09:24:12 am
Post by: Owlbread on September 11, 2014, 09:26:03 am
Aww, Scotland could become the North Korea of Europe. They could be friends.
I'm afraid we'd have to usurp Belarus first for that title. We can still try to be the Venezuela of the North, though.
Post by: Descan on September 11, 2014, 10:44:37 am
This won't go over well~
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 11, 2014, 12:46:15 pm
Aww, Scotland could become the North Korea of Europe. They could be friends.
I'm afraid we'd have to usurp Belarus first for that title. We can still try to be the Venezuela of the North, though.
Oi, so we're North Korea of Europe now? I can't recall any famines, prison camps, ICBM development or nuclear weapons programmes present in our country.
Spoiler: What does the Last Dictatorship in Europe™ have in common with Best Korea? (click to show/hide)
I'm sure that the sources which are read by dear comrade Owlbread are more reliable than mine, though.
Post by: Fniff on September 11, 2014, 01:18:20 pm
Post by: Owlbread on September 11, 2014, 01:48:54 pm
I'm sure that the sources which are read by dear comrade Owlbread are more reliable than mine, though.
Forgive me for my cheekiness, but I should say that as Fniff has put it - by European standards Belaus is our North Korea.
I love how indignant you get when anyone ever makes an unfair comparison of Belarus, yet you regularly compare the West to Nazi Germany. Although I must say there's been less of that recently and I thank you for your restraint.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2014, 03:31:58 pm
Post by: Mr. Strange on September 11, 2014, 04:45:44 pm
Well, it's still an unfair comparison. It's like saying that Greece is Europe's Zimbabwe.This is just asking to be used...
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 11, 2014, 04:59:08 pm
EDIT: A typical Turkmenistani TV news bulletin from June 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYeGcjHuIs)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2014, 05:58:14 pm
Post by: Baffler on September 11, 2014, 07:04:11 pm
The most North Korean-like country in the former USSR and probably the whole of Eurasia was Turkmenistan under the rule of Saparmurat Niyazov, also known as "Turkmenbashi". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saparmurat_Niyazov) He was well known for his highly eccentric personal decrees, intensive monument building in the capital Ashgabat financed with money from oil and gas exports and a very ridiculous cult of personality. When Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow became President of Turkmenistan after Niyazov's death, the country became a run-of-the-mill Central Asian authoritarian state, but it's still pretty much isolated.
EDIT: A typical Turkmenistani TV news bulletin from June 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYeGcjHuIs)
That guy was about as close to Tropico's own El Presidente as anyone in real life can get.
Edit: Except maybe the bunker guy from Albania.
Post by: Owlbread on September 11, 2014, 07:06:28 pm
Post by: RedKing on September 11, 2014, 07:17:58 pm
Oh, and he outlawed gold teeth and lip-syncing. So he did have THAT going for him.
Post by: Fniff on September 11, 2014, 07:47:33 pm
Post by: Sinistar on September 12, 2014, 03:24:50 am
A typical Turkmenistani TV news bulletin from June 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYeGcjHuIs)At first I thought I was just watching some typical, kitsch-y intro not unusual for any state-sponsored TV channel.
Then the madness starts at 1:35.
WHY IS EVERYONE HOLDING A BOOK
WHY IS EVERYONE DOING THE SAME EXACT POSE AS THE GUY BEFORE
WHY IS EVERYONE STANDING IN FRONT OF EITHER SOME JUMBO REGIONAL PICTURE OR PICTURE OF BELOVED LEADER
WHAT EPISODE OF MONTHY PYTHON IS THIS AND WHY DON'T I REMEMBER EVER SEEING IT
Except maybe the bunker guy from Albania.I quite like this description of dear comrade Hoxha.
I like it a lot.
Post by: olemars on September 26, 2014, 04:22:28 am
Post by: Sheb on September 26, 2014, 09:08:53 am
Post by: Darvi on September 26, 2014, 09:19:46 am
He's undergoing surgery to become the mega-Kim.
Post by: smjjames on September 26, 2014, 09:22:58 am
I've just seen on the NYTimes website that North Korean TV annouced the Dear Leader "isn't feeling well".
Okay, it's more than that because whatever it is, it's bad enough to force him to not attend a major state meeting and hasn't been seen in public for at least three weeks.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/world/asia/north-korea-kim-absent/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Inb4 he dies and his wife/fiance becomes queen regent because his child and heir is still a baby.
Yes, I just said queen regent. The Kim dynasty is a hereditary monarchy in all but name.
Although, I don't know how legitimate his heir is viewed over there and it doesn't seem like his fiance would be the type to handle the reigns of the government. More likely what will happen is some sort of military coup and chaos.
Post by: olemars on September 26, 2014, 09:27:44 am
Post by: MaximumZero on September 26, 2014, 10:46:49 am
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 01:36:39 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 26, 2014, 01:37:28 pm
Is that too dark for this topic? I'm prepared to be disappointed though
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 01:56:14 pm
Post by: hops on September 26, 2014, 04:03:19 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on September 26, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
He probably just bought meth or whatever it is that people get super addicted to nowadays.Fixed that for you.
Post by: Sirus on September 27, 2014, 12:01:59 pm
Post by: Darvi on September 27, 2014, 12:26:33 pm
Nah, he's just getting the cybernetic implants he requires to play mahjong at an international level.And there goes the rest of my weekend.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 27, 2014, 12:46:17 pm
Well, everyone's dying slowly. It would be for the net good if he died slightly faster, though.Depends, dying slowly might prevent a drastic collapse of North Korea, which might be quite bad.
Post by: Sheb on September 27, 2014, 01:18:18 pm
Post by: Helgoland on September 27, 2014, 05:21:27 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on September 28, 2014, 12:37:24 am
it's what revolutions do
then things get built anew
Post by: hops on September 28, 2014, 09:26:07 am
Post by: miauw62 on September 28, 2014, 09:29:05 am
I wonder if there is a possible model for a theoretical anarchist utopia.Theoretical? Probably like fifty thousand or so :P
Post by: hops on September 28, 2014, 09:31:48 am
Post by: Lagslayer on October 03, 2014, 05:43:08 pm
I wonder if there is a possible model for a theoretical anarchist utopia.Theoretical? Probably like fifty thousand or so :P
One that doesn't offend logic preferably. :PThis looks, sounds, and feels like a paradox.
Post by: IronyOwl on October 03, 2014, 06:30:30 pm
Therefore it's a duck. Burn it.I wonder if there is a possible model for a theoretical anarchist utopia.Theoretical? Probably like fifty thousand or so :POne that doesn't offend logic preferably. :PThis looks, sounds, and feels like a paradox.
Post by: hops on October 03, 2014, 06:42:38 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 06, 2014, 11:29:52 pm
Just the usual occasional skirmishing between the two koreas.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/10/north-south-korea-navy-boats-exchange-fire-201410715337358844.html
Also spotted this when going to google news to grab a source for the Korea skirmishing CNN mentioned about.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2014/10/07/25/0401000000AEN20141007002500315F.html
No idea if NK has done the 'Year of _____ will be the year of Korean unification' thing before. And yes, I know the source is a South Korean one.
Post by: Noel.se on October 07, 2014, 09:41:33 am
Glorous Leader is sneaking up on Worst Korea. Clever guy...
Post by: MonkeyHead on October 07, 2014, 12:14:38 pm
Post by: Noel.se on October 08, 2014, 03:50:55 pm
I should've made it clearer.
Post by: olemars on October 10, 2014, 03:36:13 am
Post by: Sheb on October 10, 2014, 03:54:53 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on October 10, 2014, 04:33:14 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 10, 2014, 04:43:40 am
Would be a very intersting coup, seeing the North's recent improvement in relations with the southAs the BBC article said, there hasn't been any suspicious troop movements in the country. It's very atypical for a coup d'etat. Andrei Lankov stated (http://tttkkk.livejournal.com/274145.html) that there was no coup in the North - he has numerous contacts in the country, so I believe him.
Lankov has written a lot of interesting posts about the DPRK that I really should translate and repost here some day, such as the one about the last year's agricultural reform that resulted in a really big rise in food production.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on October 10, 2014, 04:58:05 am
Quote
in a really big rise in food production.
So know North Koreans eat 100 grammes of rice per day instead of 50?
Post by: Sheb on October 10, 2014, 05:06:58 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 10, 2014, 05:14:41 am
According to Lankov, the North Korean government issued the following agricultural reforms: the state owned farmland was divided between peasants. They take about 30 percent (in some areas up to 60%) of the harvested produce from these plots of land for their own consumption, the rest goes to the state. The end result of the first year of reforms is this: the harvest of 2013 covered about 95% of the food needs of North Korea. It was the best year in nearly two decades for the North Korean agriculture.Quotein a really big rise in food production.
So know North Koreans eat 100 grammes of rice per day instead of 50?
Post by: Sheb on October 10, 2014, 05:19:15 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 10, 2014, 05:32:53 am
Hardly surprising, it's pretty similar to the kind of huge boost in agricultural productions China experienced after giving up on communal farms. I'm surprised I didn't hear anything about it. Do you think it could herald further economic liberalization on the Chinese model?According to Lankov, the North Korean government is very cautious about reforms because it fears it could bring about the spread of anti-government sentiment. Many people are already angry at the constant rise of the income gap between the rich and the poor - that's why the older people are nostalgic for the time when Kim il-Sung was in charge. I posted an article here about it before.
As Lankov said several years ago: "For the North Korean government, not starting reforms is awaiting their demise, starting reforms is bringing forward their demise"
Post by: olemars on October 10, 2014, 05:56:22 am
Quote
SEOUL, Oct. 10 (Yonhap) -- The two Koreas exchanged fire across their tense border Friday, Seoul's military said, after the North launched shots toward balloons carrying anti-Pyongyang leaflets floated by South Korean civic activists.
South Korean military officials said some of the North Korean shots landed south of the border, prompting the South's military to fire back in response.
Seems pretty tense these days. There was an incident between two navy ships not long ago too, around the same time some NK brass made a surprise visit to the south to restart talks.
Post by: smjjames on October 10, 2014, 07:29:47 am
Post by: timferius on October 10, 2014, 12:31:19 pm
There was an important (for NK) holiday that Kim normally shows up for, does anybody know if he showed up or is still AWOL?
Just read in the paper he was a no show. I'll dig up a non-paywalled link.
Edit: There we go Courtesy of the CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kim-jong-un-doesn-t-attend-north-korea-celebrations-1.2794659)
Post by: Darvi on October 10, 2014, 12:43:15 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 10, 2014, 02:28:45 pm
Post by: MonkeyHead on October 10, 2014, 02:44:35 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 10, 2014, 03:21:27 pm
What about a third option: Kim Jong Un has been a puppet of the ruling elite/military of NK for some time and suddenly is refusing to co-operate?
Wouldn't we have seen signs of that? Also, his sister (forget her name) is handling some stuff now apparently. Plus didn't he pretty much upend the top command structures a while ago?
There is speculation (founded on not much) that China may be involved somehow, in the context of "reining in" an unruly client state.
I was kind of under the impression that they have gotten fed up with it, about the only thing keeping them from completely severing ties is the fear of having to deal with potentially millions of refugees fleeing over the border when NK collapses.
Post by: RedKing on October 10, 2014, 03:47:09 pm
Which is why they may have stepped in if they were aware of a brewing problem in the NK upper echelon. Can't have a potentially destabilizing civil war/coup if Glorious Leader is already replaced. Although it's odd that there's been absolutely no troop movements out of the ordinary, and no nervous propaganda announcements. Whatever's happening, the ruling clique seem to be perfectly fine with the situation.There is speculation (founded on not much) that China may be involved somehow, in the context of "reining in" an unruly client state.
I was kind of under the impression that they have gotten fed up with it, about the only thing keeping them from completely severing ties is the fear of having to deal with potentially millions of refugees fleeing over the border when NK collapses.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 10, 2014, 03:48:48 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 11, 2014, 02:13:25 pm
I completely disbelieve the idea that China has any real control over NK's internal politics. NK is a bad ally to China, but they aren't a client state any more than Mexico is a client state to the US, and Mexico lacks the totalitarian political system that NK uses to manage things.China had some real control on NK's internal politics right up until KJU's uncle was annihilated via artillery barrage.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 11, 2014, 02:52:45 pm
I'll give you that he was definitely Pro-China and Bejing's man of the hour in Pyongyang, but that still wasn't a puppet-style relationship.I completely disbelieve the idea that China has any real control over NK's internal politics. NK is a bad ally to China, but they aren't a client state any more than Mexico is a client state to the US, and Mexico lacks the totalitarian political system that NK uses to manage things.China had some real control on NK's internal politics right up until KJU's uncle was annihilated via artillery barrage.
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 06:17:56 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/13/world/asia/north-korea-kim-jong-un/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
Post by: smjjames on October 13, 2014, 08:02:10 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on October 13, 2014, 08:41:02 pm
Okay, so I guess he had some sort of leg injury? But even if it WERE a leg injury, that wouldn't stop him from showing in public, bad legs didn't stop FDR.He cannot show any weakness to the plebs.
Post by: RedKing on October 13, 2014, 08:47:37 pm
Post by: Sinistar on October 14, 2014, 04:45:35 am
Then again, maybe this is just the first step in creating augmented Kim.
JC Kimton when
Post by: miauw62 on October 14, 2014, 09:09:32 am
Post by: smjjames on October 14, 2014, 10:04:22 am
Also, hormone treatments? Who's to say that the hormone treatments aren't screwing up his health even further. That's a heck of an insane-in-the-brain personality cult, especially when you have to live up to your father and grandfather.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on October 14, 2014, 10:50:29 am
Post by: smjjames on October 21, 2014, 12:14:15 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/21/politics/american-released-north-korea/index.html
Post by: MaximumZero on October 21, 2014, 02:29:47 pm
First class speaking skills, there.
Post by: smjjames on October 29, 2014, 09:28:58 am
Apparently he had a cyst removed from his ankle, which would explain his absence. Plus the ankle version of carpal tunnel syndrome.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on October 29, 2014, 09:34:12 am
Post by: olemars on November 07, 2014, 03:50:42 am
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on November 07, 2014, 03:52:50 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2014, 02:20:04 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/11/04/kim-jong-un-photobombCUNNING VICTORY
ALSO CUNNILINGUS
Post by: Owlbread on November 08, 2014, 03:28:40 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 08, 2014, 03:29:44 pm
Post by: hops on November 08, 2014, 03:36:09 pm
I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Well, the North Korean command seems to be eternally high.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on November 08, 2014, 04:11:23 pm
please don't actually do this
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2014, 04:14:47 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 08, 2014, 08:30:23 pm
Post by: Bouchart on November 08, 2014, 08:48:01 pm
I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?
I've read articles about it a year or two ago. Here is one of them. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/21/how-north-korea-got-itself-hooked-on-meth/) As with most things North Korean it's hard to tell what is real and what isn't.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 10, 2014, 06:30:07 am
(edit:Pun intended.)
(edit2:Terrible grammar not intended.)
Post by: nenjin on November 10, 2014, 11:26:24 am
http://mashable.com/2014/11/04/kim-jong-un-photobombCUNNING VICTORY
ALSO CUNNILINGUS
CUNNILINGUS VICTORY. EXCELLENT.
Post by: RedKing on November 10, 2014, 03:05:38 pm
I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Considering that meth is a strong appetite suppressant, makes some sense.
Post by: MaximumZero on November 11, 2014, 03:55:33 am
That...actually kind of makes sense, in a twisted sort of way. I mean, all the food goes to the military, and they don't care how long the civilians live as long as the backbreaking work gets done without the higher-ups getting their hands physically dirty.I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Considering that meth is a strong appetite suppressant, makes some sense.
Post by: Arx on November 11, 2014, 06:05:22 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 11, 2014, 10:07:25 am
Post by: Sheb on November 11, 2014, 10:24:33 am
Post by: miljan on November 11, 2014, 11:25:30 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uYTS93Tv1Y&list=UUpwvZwUam-URkxB7g4USKpg
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 14, 2014, 05:06:55 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2014, 05:16:52 pm
Quote
A KCNA article released with the footage said Martinez spoke of human rights violations committed by the U.S. government and its attempt at forcing imperialist influence and domination on other countries.
Bloody hell, then why go to North Korea of all places? I suppose for the platform they provide, but Christ almighty Best Korea does not have the best humanitarian record of all nations nor are they the friendliest neighbour.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 14, 2014, 05:26:04 pm
Post by: smeeprocket on December 14, 2014, 05:28:05 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on December 14, 2014, 05:37:22 pm
Well, he's already tried this (he tried to swim across a river in September), is mentally unstable and is seeking asylum in Venezuela.
Quote
He said he had taken "a risky journey to reach the (North) so that I could pass along some very valuable and disturbing information".
Quote
Martinez said he chose to come to North Korea to talk about U.S. policy because it has successfully defied U.S. influence by maintaining a "very powerful military".So yes, mother's testimony aside he probably doesn't quite have all of his cards shuffled in there quite right. 'S a pity, too, because he's got himself together enough to get where he wants to go, but not enough to figure out that he probably doesn't have any particularly juicy insider intel and 90% of 4 is still not a very large number.
Quote
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has criticized the U.S. Senate for passing a bill that would impose sanctions on government officials found to have violated protesters' rights during demonstrations earlier this year.Meanwhile, the rest of the world continues as usual.
Critics of Maduro say he blasts the United States to distract Venezuelans from the cash-strapped country's ballooning economic crisis.
Post by: Bohandas on December 14, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
A U.S. citizen enter North Korea to denounce the U.S. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/14/us-northkorea-usa-idUSKBN0JS03C20141214)
...and this one isn't a washed up celebrity.
EDIT:
I think the funniest part was his claim that North Korea has "successfully defied U.S. influence by maintaining a very powerful military", rather than by virtue of the fact that they're China's jester.
I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Considering that meth is a strong appetite suppressant, makes some sense.
It would also explain the behavior of the ruling party.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 14, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
If Kim-Jong Un is on meth, then he's managed to fully resist both the appetite suppressant and weight loss side-effects, which is.....scarily plausible. Still, I think he'd go for high-quality cocaine or something to that effect instead.I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Considering that meth is a strong appetite suppressant, makes some sense.
It would also explain the behavior of the ruling party.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 14, 2014, 08:51:31 pm
Nah, man. Kim does Disney films. The whole family is on the stuff.If Kim-Jong Un is on meth, then he's managed to fully resist both the appetite suppressant and weight loss side-effects, which is.....scarily plausible. Still, I think he'd go for high-quality cocaine or something to that effect instead.I have heard serious rumours that North Korea is now swimming in crystal meth; to the point that pretty much everyone is addicted. Is this true?Considering that meth is a strong appetite suppressant, makes some sense.
It would also explain the behavior of the ruling party.
Post by: MaximumZero on December 14, 2014, 08:52:45 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 17, 2014, 08:19:50 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 17, 2014, 08:29:45 pm
Seriously though, fuck North Korea.The logistics involved are rather arduous to undertake such a legendary endeavour.
Post by: penguinofhonor on December 17, 2014, 08:33:09 pm
Post by: alway on December 17, 2014, 08:36:36 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on December 17, 2014, 08:40:40 pm
Post by: alway on December 17, 2014, 08:46:17 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on December 17, 2014, 09:07:06 pm
Post by: Sergarr on December 17, 2014, 09:13:43 pm
I believe that one of the threats was to kill every person that saw the film? So yes, typical DPRK posturing.Hey, it worked. The people are actually scared of these threats enough to cancel the film.
Not very typical, if you ask me.
Post by: Bohandas on December 17, 2014, 09:56:35 pm
If the second then it's gotta still be showing somewhere. And I wanna see it all the more because of it. It didn't look like a good movie but now I want to go to the theaters to see it.
Post by: Bohandas on December 17, 2014, 10:00:16 pm
Post by: misko27 on December 17, 2014, 10:19:05 pm
Nah, I actually don't like the idea of testing out North Korea when they threaten to unleash 9/11 on movie theaters, especially when the premiere was supposed to be in New York.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 17, 2014, 10:21:24 pm
Relevant.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/17/sony-needs-team-america-world-police/
Post by: Bohandas on December 17, 2014, 10:25:36 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on December 17, 2014, 10:37:30 pm
Seriously though, fuck North Korea.Ah, if only I weren't married. I can be extremely seductive, you know.
Post by: Baffler on December 17, 2014, 11:08:27 pm
Post by: Lagslayer on December 17, 2014, 11:46:06 pm
Relevant. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115639.msg4120207#msg4120207)Ah, yes, the potato dream.
Post by: MaximumZero on December 17, 2014, 11:46:16 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on December 17, 2014, 11:54:55 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 17, 2014, 11:55:12 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on December 18, 2014, 12:03:44 am
Post by: Malt_Hitman on December 18, 2014, 01:12:20 am
Post by: Sinistar on December 18, 2014, 02:44:13 am
Wow. I’m surprised that they would actually kill him in the movie. I figured part of the joke would be that he was there and still in power because the US wanted him as a distraction and that the CIA was just perpetually out of the loop on it.+1
The movie seems about 100% less ridiculous now.
Actually, this is pretty interesting too (http://defamer.gawker.com/leaked-emails-the-interview-sucked-for-sony-even-befor-1671234001/+laceydonohue).
Apparently even the people directly involved in this movie were skeptical about it even being worth to be made. I'm sure nobody expected that, heh.
Post by: Xantalos on December 18, 2014, 03:04:56 am
If this was a ploy to activate the Streisand Effect in their favor, I gotta say it worked for me, I actually wanna see it, especially with the mention of unnecessary amounts of violence.
Post by: nenjin on December 18, 2014, 08:20:32 am
Apparently even the people directly involved in this movie were skeptical about it even being worth to be made. I'm sure nobody expected that, heh.
Oh I think they did. It's a Seth Rogen movie, after all.
That's what I think the biggest lulz part of this is. A guy who makes jerkoff buddy films that no one honestly thinks are that good...is suddenly catapulted to "give a fuck" status because of this.
Post by: Xantalos on December 18, 2014, 11:49:27 am
Post by: Vilanat on December 18, 2014, 12:06:09 pm
Post by: Levi on December 18, 2014, 12:07:22 pm
Its a bit disturbing how a few hackers can disrupt the lives of so many people all the way across the globe by threats alone.
I wonder if I can do the same to get Michael Bay's movies shut down.... :o :P
Post by: Lagslayer on December 18, 2014, 12:44:46 pm
Are you implying Michael Bay wouldn't want even more explosions?Its a bit disturbing how a few hackers can disrupt the lives of so many people all the way across the globe by threats alone.
I wonder if I can do the same to get Michael Bay's movies shut down.... :o :P
Post by: Levi on December 18, 2014, 12:53:11 pm
Are you implying Michael Bay wouldn't want even more explosions?Its a bit disturbing how a few hackers can disrupt the lives of so many people all the way across the globe by threats alone.
I wonder if I can do the same to get Michael Bay's movies shut down.... :o :P
I didn't think this through... :'(
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 18, 2014, 01:43:21 pm
Why do I suspect they did the whole 'shut it down' thing for publicity, and plan on releasing it later?Because Hollywood has no soul
Post by: Cthulhu on December 18, 2014, 01:47:34 pm
It was hackers. Unknown hackers.
Seems a little suspicious, though this would be a pretty outrageous con if it was a con, one that would get people put in jail if outed.
Post by: Naryar on December 18, 2014, 01:48:06 pm
Can someone curbstomp them before the "North Korea STRONK, we will kill the evil murricans with fire!!1" joke gets old ?
Though I bet Kim Jong Un has just seen too much James Bond movies and indentifies as the villain.
Maybe he is actually the most successful IRL troll ever ? who knows.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 18, 2014, 01:57:12 pm
- NSA false flag attack on Murrican soil
- Ilerminaty sekrit agents of nwo
- Random bloke who'll be called Anonymoose
- Kim Jong-Un retaliating with his 1337 haxor skills
- Sony raking in massive dollar holla with guerilla marketing
- Obama accidentally 63megabytes
- Nazis hacking from the moon
- The Belgian Intelligence and Security Agency (you know it was Belgium)
- Israel with the FEMA hacks on Sonyvision to Federal Reserve your base
- Bill Gates got bored and wanted to fuck shit up with his powers over computers
- Aliums did it
- Knowing is one word away from knwoing, it was the knew world order
Post by: Naryar on December 18, 2014, 01:59:39 pm
Proxies, you know.
Post by: Itnetlolor on December 18, 2014, 02:00:11 pm
- Random bloke who'll be called Anonymoose
The Sony hack was just a coincidence they took advantage of.
EDIT:
On a more serious note, considering how terrorist organizations would operate anyhow, I don't think it would matter if we complied with their request or not; they'd decide to strike anyway. I say show it anyway, and have some beefed up security at the ready. After all, wasn't it our motto "Not to negotiate with terrorists"? America, have some balls.
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 18, 2014, 02:04:38 pm
If I were Sony, I would say "fuck you" and release it for free on the internet, just for shits and giggles and to raise a big middle finger to whoever is pulling the strings here.
Post by: IronTomato on December 18, 2014, 02:07:07 pm
North Korea: i blow u up for watchin dat movie.
America: SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING
Post by: Frumple on December 18, 2014, 02:19:28 pm
After all, wasn't it our motto "Not to negotiate with terrorists"? America, have some balls.C'mon man, pay attention. America hasn't had balls in over a decade. Apparently movies get people jumpin', but you never hear complaints about similar action in the face of bomb threats, shooting threats, etc., etc., etc. This is par for the course -- arguably even braver than usual, since we don't seem to be intending to slap someone with our military dong to try to fake confidence or violate constitutional rights to try to fake safety. Voluntary cancellations are probably an improvement! You should be proud, it looks like the nation might actually be starting down the path of getting some neurosis under control.
Post by: Vilanat on December 18, 2014, 02:45:38 pm
Is this not just a function of cinemas not wanting to run the film, scared that there will be some kind of attack on their property (based on threats, real or not...), which is bad of business, and might cause lawsuits? Sony will obviously have to pull the film then because capitalism.
If I were Sony, I would say "fuck you" and release it for free on the internet, just for shits and giggles and to raise a big middle finger to whoever is pulling the strings here.
I think the cinema networks were afraid people will be scared off from going to the cinemas, even if they go watch other movies. if those hackers would have called up to the cinemas and fabricated false bomb threats, then that would have been an even greater financial loss.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 18, 2014, 03:00:36 pm
Voluntary cancellations are probably an improvement!
Yeah, being dictated to by another country's dictator about what is and isn't permissible freedom of expression [guaranteed by our own constitution in fact] is a pretty big improvement over the status quo
Much better world to live in now that Sony has capitulated their right to expression in exchange for... not getting attacked by an imaginary group. The precedent has been set, you don't even need to be a credible and real terror group to shut down hollywood. God help us if, I don't know, ISIS threatens to bomb the next movie showing. Why not shut that down, it's a real terror group threatening it. If a made up threat by a blowhard government with no ability to conduct anything can shut down a movie like this, then I guess we may as well hand over the entire publishing department to terrorists so they can vet our choices of media before we have to deal with these cancellations.
Quote
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.Better safe than sorry, right?
Post by: Itnetlolor on December 18, 2014, 03:05:22 pm
Put that way, that is a valid point. In a sense, it's more like a "Not cool, America. Not cool at all." being expressed towards us, and willful cancellation is our apology.Voluntary cancellations are probably an improvement!Yeah, being dictated to by another country's dictator about what is and isn't permissible freedom of expression [guaranteed by our own constitution in fact] is a pretty big improvement over the status quo
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 18, 2014, 03:10:59 pm
Put that way, that is a valid point. In a sense, it's more like a "Not cool, America. Not cool at all." being expressed towards us, and willful cancellation is our apology.
They cancelled it because of attack threats, not to save face. Even though there is a 0% chance of any NK national/terror group attacking the US, since it has never happened and they don't have the capability since the 80's to project any type of force.
So what happens if AQ-x or ISIS doesn't like the next movie being produced, the groups with actual ability to conduct these things? Do we shut it all down permanently and let terror groups vet our media? Pretty neat stuff being displayed by Hollywood.
Post by: Parsely on December 18, 2014, 03:11:50 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Frumple on December 18, 2014, 03:17:30 pm
Hey, it's better than what we've been doing. Few years ago they might have instead decided to shove a glove up the arse of everyone that wanted to see the show and still canceled it. And then invaded some other country to sooth the collective ego and probably just outright abolished the 4th amendment or somethin'. Voluntary cancellation, no military adverturism, no legislative bumfuckery, and people are actually getting a little incensed instead of just rolling over for the Nth time? Pretty big improvement over the last decade and change's status quo.Voluntary cancellations are probably an improvement!
Yeah, being dictated to by another country's dictator about what is and isn't permissible freedom of expression [guaranteed by our own constitution in fact] is a pretty big improvement over the status quo
Post by: Arbinire on December 18, 2014, 04:26:38 pm
Like Corey Feldman has said in numerous interviews, "Hollywood is FULL of paedophiles." It's Hollywood's "best kept secret." It's been rumored for years that big names in the business like Rob Reiner, David Geffen, Roman Polanski(which was proven to be true), as well as big names across the pond like Jimmy Saville(also now proven to have been a child rapist with something like 200+ cases coming forward after his death) are paedophiles. The problems with prosecuting them though have been lack of concrete evidence, and a running out of statutes of limitations. It should be noted these hackers aren't just demanding this movie not be shown, but they're also demanding a very large sum to not release the rest of the emails. You don't cow-tow to stuff like hacked emails unless there's something seriously damning in them. We've been dealing with death threats and terrorist threats for controversial movies since at least the 70's. And as we have seen with that basketball owner, most of them don't really give much a rat's ass if racist comments are leaked either. We shouldn't be damning these hackers, we should be demanding they release the rest of the emails so we can know exactly what sorts of people we are supporting by buying these movie tickets.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 18, 2014, 04:31:18 pm
Also;
Quote from: Michael Moore
Dear Sony Hackers: now that u run Hollywood, I'd also like less romantic comedies, fewer Michael Bay movies and no more Transformers.https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/545341254629093376
Post by: Arbinire on December 18, 2014, 04:43:09 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 18, 2014, 04:44:00 pm
I find that highly doubtable, considering anonymous-linked hackers would've already found that information already if it were just.. talked about, between executives.Not necessarily, Anons have been scrawling the internet for hollywood pedophiles and they've found accounts and interviews from child actors casually talking about directors exposing themselves but they haven't found any mounds of evidence. Worse still they had to spend a lot of time parsing through what was legitimate, what was bullshit spun up by someone and what was just gossip and rumour. I'm trying to find any of their pastebins or achives but the threads are nonexistent now and were not viewed favourably by the mods. Though I do agree, the chances of execs talking about it in their emails is low, few rich criminals are that stupid.
Honestly just the information of who, what they're paid, who they're paying and customer details are worth an extortionate ransom.
Post by: Arbinire on December 18, 2014, 05:05:45 pm
Post by: Bohandas on December 18, 2014, 09:46:15 pm
The problems with prosecuting them though have been lack of concrete evidence, and a running out of statutes of limitations.
Also the fact that Hollywood types are effectively above the law in general.
Post by: Itnetlolor on December 18, 2014, 11:36:56 pm
Being part of the [INSERT CONSPIRACY GROUP HERE] certainly has it's perks. You can be as immortal as a GTA playable character.The problems with prosecuting them though have been lack of concrete evidence, and a running out of statutes of limitations.Also the fact that Hollywood types are effectively above the law in general.
That is, of course, until you outlive your usefulness. Just ask [DEAD CELEBRITY] here.
Post by: smeeprocket on December 18, 2014, 11:42:20 pm
Post by: Itnetlolor on December 18, 2014, 11:43:54 pm
I blame Scientology. They are all scientologists now, right?I think so. Did they ever discover anything new besides manipulating weak-minded people to be their puppets for our entertainment?
If not, then they're an insult to the scientific community, and should change their name into something that suits them better. Ass-End Ostriches seems appropriate. They always bury their heads up themselves.
Post by: Bohandas on December 19, 2014, 12:08:57 am
I blame Scientology. They are all scientologists now, right?
A few of them follow Wicca or Kabbalah instead, and I think I heard somewhere that Mel Gibson is part of the Thule Society.
Post by: smeeprocket on December 19, 2014, 12:11:06 am
I blame Scientology. They are all scientologists now, right?
A few of them follow Wicca or Kabbalah instead, and I think I heard that Mel Gibson is part of the Thule Society.
I thought he was a Jesuit or something?
Is Madonna even Jewish? I had a friend who works on translating ancient hebrew manuscripts and she wanted access to one of them, and the university involved was like "um no, you sort of don't even qualify as a scholar in this AT ALL"
Post by: MDFification on December 19, 2014, 09:19:36 am
And then invaded some other country to sooth the collective ego and probably just outright abolished the 4th amendment or somethin'.
Are you implying the 4th amendment still exists in any meaningful form in modern America? Because brother, it ain't.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 19, 2014, 10:42:40 am
Is Madonna even Jewish? I had a friend who works on translating ancient hebrew manuscripts and she wanted access to one of them, and the university involved was like "um no, you sort of don't even qualify as a scholar in this AT ALL"
No, she's definitely a Kabbalist. Which does have roots in Jewish mysticism so she would be interested in ancient hebrew texts, but I'm pretty sure that the version of Kabbalism she follows has been altered significantly for Hollywood and thus isn't considered part of traditional/modern/mainstream/whatever-the-proper-word-is Judaism anymore.
Post by: Sinistar on December 20, 2014, 09:45:21 am
I specifically like this excerpt:
Quote
"Without resorting to such tortures as were used by the US CIA, we have means to prove that this incident has nothing to do with us."
Ooooooohh SNAP.
Personally I think US should agree on this, even if just so they can wash their hands later saying "hey, at least we tried!" But I'm almost certain people at the top will behave like small, stubborn children, pouting in the corner all like "NO, because I KNOW you did it :v"
Post by: hops on December 20, 2014, 09:49:40 am
I mean, he's the only computer user in North Korea, right?
Post by: Arx on December 20, 2014, 09:56:08 am
I specifically like this excerpt:Quote"Without resorting to such tortures as were used by the US CIA, we have means to prove that this incident has nothing to do with us."
Shots fired.
Unrelated, I offer you some Best Korean Carols:
Hark the herald angels sing
Glory to Kim Jong Un
--
Hail the heav'n born Kim Jong Un
Hail the son of righteousness!
Post by: MaximumZero on December 20, 2014, 09:57:16 am
Post by: Arx on December 20, 2014, 09:58:24 am
Right?
Post by: Flying Dice on December 20, 2014, 12:18:25 pm
Quote
"As the United States is spreading groundless allegations and slandering us, we propose a joint investigation with it into this incident."
Quote
"Without resorting to such tortures as were used by the US CIA, we have means to prove that this incident has nothing to do with us."
Quote
The statement said there would be "grave consequences" if the Americans rejected their inquiry proposal.
"I-It's not like I like you or anything, America-baka, I just want to clear my name!"
Post by: Xantalos on December 20, 2014, 01:21:41 pm
Post by: Vilanat on December 20, 2014, 01:42:01 pm
What's more likely, that an isolated dictatorship like north korea (I know, i know, they got an army full of hackers) had taken to an open attack like this or that a group of hackers, helped by insiders, decided the big corporations should lay their filthy hands off the internet?
Its interesting that this was in some of the information that got leaked:
http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/12/7382287/project-goliath
I am also a bit worried by this statement from obama:
"Now internet is wild west, we need more rules about how the internet should operate."
Post by: Itnetlolor on December 20, 2014, 03:20:25 pm
Everything suddenly explodes tomorrow? Horrifying as it sounds, it would make me chuckle a bit at the absurdity of it. Then again, I think it's more of a "The World, as we know it, would end.". This is probably one of the more unusual ways for it to happen. A crap movie being the cause of The End.
But yeah, since I first heard of it, I was worried it would be another false flag operation to kill the internet... again. I mean, they're hamming it up more than usual, moreso than the movie being being targeted. I mean, using 9/11 to get people to panic on-call and be on your side? That's low.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 20, 2014, 05:13:55 pm
I am also a bit worried by this statement from obama:NO OBAMA NO
"Now internet is wild west, we need more rules about how the internet should operate."
Post by: Xantalos on December 20, 2014, 05:23:38 pm
Post by: Bohandas on December 20, 2014, 05:58:59 pm
I am also a bit worried by this statement from obama:NO OBAMA NO
"Now internet is wild west, we need more rules about how the internet should operate."
I can't believe I voted for that bastard!
Post by: smjjames on December 20, 2014, 06:02:08 pm
I am also a bit worried by this statement from obama:NO OBAMA NO
"Now internet is wild west, we need more rules about how the internet should operate."
I can't believe I voted for that bastard!
It depends on what he means really.
Post by: Teneb on December 20, 2014, 06:21:08 pm
I am also a bit worried by this statement from obama:NO OBAMA NO
"Now internet is wild west, we need more rules about how the internet should operate."
I can't believe I voted for that bastard!
It depends on what he means really.
I think it depends more on what other politicians think he means.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 20, 2014, 07:27:04 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on December 20, 2014, 08:16:36 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on December 20, 2014, 11:43:34 pm
Look at the quote in the context of the event he's talking about. Companies shouldn't have to censor themselves for fear of cyberattacks. Maybe the government can do something to prevent this from happening again.I think it depends more on what other politicians think he means.
Other politicians don't really listen to Obama right now, so I think we're safe from them.
More or less...I am PRETTY sure the world thinks he is mostly a joke
Post by: Flying Dice on December 21, 2014, 02:10:51 am
1. Of Fox viewers.Look at the quote in the context of the event he's talking about. Companies shouldn't have to censor themselves for fear of cyberattacks. Maybe the government can do something to prevent this from happening again.I think it depends more on what other politicians think he means.
Other politicians don't really listen to Obama right now, so I think we're safe from them.
More or less...I am PRETTY sure the world1 thinks he is mostly a joke
World opinion seems to range from "business as usual for the U.S., eh?" to "you think that's a socialist!?"
Post by: Bohandas on December 21, 2014, 02:16:17 am
Look at the quote in the context of the event he's talking about. Companies shouldn't have to censor themselves for fear of cyberattacks. Maybe the government can do something to prevent this from happening again.I think it depends more on what other politicians think he means.
Other politicians don't really listen to Obama right now, so I think we're safe from them.
More or less...I am PRETTY sure the world thinks he is mostly a joke
But he's the best president we've had since Bill Clinton!
Post by: Cheeetar on December 21, 2014, 02:20:07 am
Post by: Fniff on December 21, 2014, 11:18:00 am
Post by: Xantalos on December 21, 2014, 11:24:09 am
Post by: Fniff on December 21, 2014, 11:25:28 am
Post by: DJ on December 21, 2014, 11:26:38 am
Post by: Fniff on December 21, 2014, 11:27:57 am
I know! We'll invade Northern Ireland with a mercenary army and completely deny any relation to it. That should get people talking about Ireland.
Post by: Helgoland on December 21, 2014, 11:41:23 am
Post by: Descan on December 21, 2014, 04:30:52 pm
Speaking from a Canadian perspective ... which one was Obama again? They've all kinda blurred together in recent years.The black one.
Post by: Bohandas on December 21, 2014, 11:04:58 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on December 22, 2014, 07:15:29 am
damn! You beat me to it!but not as much as they beat the blacks
gotta go faster m8
Post by: freeformschooler on December 22, 2014, 05:21:16 pm
If it *WAS* the U.S., that's absolutely terrifying. It would mean debate about net neutrality and what have you is taking place in a world with a much larger issue: someone, somewhere, has a big red button that can disconnect entire countries.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on December 22, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Post by: freeformschooler on December 22, 2014, 05:48:00 pm
Screwing up the internet is not that hard. The DNS system is hardly perfect.
What would be required to disconnect a country from the world? How would you do that? Like this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_denial_of_service_attacks_on_root_nameservers)
Post by: smjjames on December 23, 2014, 08:53:41 am
Post by: guessingo on December 23, 2014, 09:31:48 am
Im not impressed with our retaliation. Take them down permanently. 9.5 hours is a joke of a response.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on December 23, 2014, 08:22:30 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 23, 2014, 08:28:51 pm
So apparently our glorious US government took down North Koreas internet for a whopping 9.5 hours. Kim Jong Un had to go 1/3 of a day without access to youporn.
Im not impressed with our retaliation. Take them down permanently. 9.5 hours is a joke of a response.
They'd have to do it physically, but even then, things can be repaired.
Their internet was also reportedly up and down and 'spotty'.
Anyways, even if it WAS us, we wouldn't fess up to it.
Edit: 'god-fearing' in the title, the heck?
Post by: ShadowHammer on December 23, 2014, 09:25:01 pm
Edit: 'god-fearing' in the title, the heck?Fear of God, despite what it seems to mean, actually refers to reverence/humility/piety and is usually used to imply that someone who doesn't fear God is a heathen, while those who do are good Christians.
Reminds me of this comic, especially panels 3 and 4.
(https://vanillabomb.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/war-and-peace.jpg)
Good ol' Calvin and Hobbes.
Post by: smjjames on December 27, 2014, 02:46:14 pm
Post by: smeeprocket on December 27, 2014, 02:50:11 pm
But mostly I think they start threatening people and making violent overtures when they need things like resources from outside.
Okay, we'll give you some food if you stop sinking s korea's ships for awhile.
Post by: smjjames on December 27, 2014, 03:06:42 pm
Seriously, NKs antics pretty much exactly describe a troll and we keep 'feeding the troll', in other words, give them exactly what they want.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 15, 2015, 08:27:53 pm
Post by: Xantalos on January 15, 2015, 08:34:29 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 15, 2015, 08:56:57 pm
Post by: Bouchart on February 03, 2015, 10:47:04 pm
They are probably referring to this. (http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/36893-Final_Doom_%5BNTSC-U%5D-1.jpg)
Post by: Parsely on February 03, 2015, 11:19:51 pm
North Korea Strikes Down US Talks, Vows "Final Doom" (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-strikes-down-us-talks-vows-final-020143607.html)Doesn't this look photoshopped?:
They are probably referring to this. (http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/36893-Final_Doom_%5BNTSC-U%5D-1.jpg)
Spoiler: From the Above Yahoo Article (click to show/hide)
Or maybe he's just short.
Post by: Elephant Parade on February 03, 2015, 11:21:30 pm
Post by: Bauglir on February 04, 2015, 12:16:20 am
The weird lighting is an effect created by Kim Jong-Un's personal spotlight. He has a helicopter follow him around with it.I can't actually tell if you're joking. That's terrifying.
Post by: Blastbeard on February 04, 2015, 12:25:07 am
Doesn't this look photoshopped?:Spoiler: From the Above Yahoo Article (click to show/hide)
That's pretty exploitable, but I'm worried if I put any sort of caption on it at all I'd get hacked by someone, become the spotlight of an international incident, and receive more publicity than I want or need for a fairly small time and mediocre piece of work.
Wait, sounds familiar...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 04, 2015, 12:34:11 am
That's Kim-Jong Il. That is Kim-Jong Il in full party regalia.
ILLUMINATI
Post by: Xantalos on February 04, 2015, 12:37:38 am
Post by: smjjames on February 04, 2015, 01:00:40 am
North Korea Strikes Down US Talks, Vows "Final Doom" (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-strikes-down-us-talks-vows-final-020143607.html)Doesn't this look photoshopped?:
They are probably referring to this. (http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/36893-Final_Doom_%5BNTSC-U%5D-1.jpg)Spoiler: From the Above Yahoo Article (click to show/hide)
Or maybe he's just short.
His head looks out of poportion to his body.
Fitting.
Post by: Bauglir on February 04, 2015, 01:11:04 am
... Please alert me if the joke has flown over my head. I'm too tired for this >__________>
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2015, 02:41:44 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 03, 2015, 04:38:54 pm
10/10
Post by: RedKing on June 03, 2015, 04:48:03 pm
Kim be watching too many chinese cartoons (http://europe.newsweek.com/kim-jong-un-assembles-new-pleasure-squad-young-women-319030)
I'm looking at the picture and the caption and doing a WTF.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MagmaMcFry on June 03, 2015, 05:22:01 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 04, 2015, 08:44:48 am
Post by: Bauglir on June 04, 2015, 10:45:21 am
Never doubt the power of famine cakesThey're 30% wood pulp, so they double as bludgeons!
Post by: scriver on June 04, 2015, 10:55:37 am
That is all. ;)
Post by: SirQuiamus on June 04, 2015, 12:08:51 pm
Quote
Kim Jong-un Assembles New 'Pleasure Squad' of Young WomenKim-Kim is a fan of Joy Division.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2015, 11:08:50 pm
I'm only surprised by the fact that they didn't claim to be able to cure cancer, too.
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2015, 11:15:34 pm
The problem is that their cure is euthanism!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2015, 11:20:38 pm
Didn't they also claim to have unicorns?Yes. (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/30/unicorns-existence-proven-says-north-korea/)
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 20, 2015, 05:20:01 am
"North Korea Claims It Has Cure for MERS, Ebola and AIDS" (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/north-korea-claims-cure-mers-ebola-aids-31882077)Anti-aircraft artillery goes against the spirit of medicine.
Post by: MonkeyHead on June 20, 2015, 07:18:06 am
"North Korea Claims It Has Cure for MERS, Ebola and AIDS" (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/north-korea-claims-cure-mers-ebola-aids-31882077)Anti-aircraft artillery goes against the spirit of medicine.
What does not kill you makes you stronger.
What does kill you makes you dead.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 20, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 20, 2015, 11:57:17 am
The thread titles for this are the best I've ever seen on these forums. Let's hope Best Korea never falls so we can enjoy them forever.This. All of this. You are always on point, MSH.
Post by: redwallzyl on June 20, 2015, 02:14:07 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 20, 2015, 02:37:20 pm
you spelled with wrong in the title ;)Due to the principle of Divine Inerrancy, that is now the correct spelling of wtih. Please revise your spellchecker.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 20, 2015, 04:13:28 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 20, 2015, 06:43:36 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on June 21, 2015, 11:19:17 pm
Ot abd. Egt wtih hte prorgam ro egt lfet beihnd.Layers of awful spelling.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 26, 2015, 05:04:44 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 15, 2015, 08:39:08 pm
Post by: mainiac on July 15, 2015, 09:23:55 pm
Post by: Bauglir on July 15, 2015, 09:54:34 pm
Post by: Reelya on July 15, 2015, 10:35:49 pm
Post by: Bauglir on July 15, 2015, 10:52:58 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 15, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Post by: Reelya on July 15, 2015, 10:56:12 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 15, 2015, 10:57:03 pm
One of us, one of us.
Post by: Bauglir on July 15, 2015, 10:57:16 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on July 15, 2015, 10:57:25 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 16, 2015, 04:42:36 am
This thread is always the right thread. I long for the days of Guardian G.I. lecturing us on feats of Soviet engineering.:o
EDIT: if you're so curious about Soviet engineering, I'll maybe translate some stuff from www.buran.ru - there are plenty of information about Soviet spacecraft projects there.
Post by: Arx on July 16, 2015, 04:47:44 am
Post by: DJ on July 16, 2015, 09:55:38 am
Post by: Sinistar on July 16, 2015, 12:30:59 pm
This is a WTF of the day if I ever had one. Sure, they made their music more "accessible" to a degree at least in recent years. And the organizer had given word they'll behave. And in all honesty you they can easily make themselves look and sound like an easy-listening electro-rock-ish group if they only want to.
But simply the fact that THEY perform as a FIRST foreign band in NORTH KOREA is simply... hilarious and mind-boggling at the same time.
Here, have a taste of how they used to roll in the days. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07PpcCt90TY)
Post by: TempAcc on July 16, 2015, 01:37:49 pm
JA
Laibach was never scary though, even in the oldie tiems, at least not as scary as Coil, but then again, nobody is scarier then Coil. Not even Genesis P Orridge.
Post by: XXSockXX on July 16, 2015, 02:48:52 pm
Glorious Leader allows Laibach to play in Best Korea (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33530538)That is pretty awesome. :D
This is a WTF of the day if I ever had one. Sure, they made their music more "accessible" to a degree at least in recent years. And the organizer had given word they'll behave. And in all honesty you they can easily make themselves look and sound like an easy-listening electro-rock-ish group if they only want to.Yeah, I saw them live a while ago, they look pretty tired these days.
Laibach was never scary though, even in the oldie tiems, at least not as scary as Coil, but then again, nobody is scarier then Coil. Not even Genesis P Orridge.Ooh, somebody here knows Coil, nice. Depends on what you mean by scary though.
I guess some other industrial acts (http://www.discogs.com/Various-%EC%A3%BC%EC%A0%9C/release/1267587) are going to be envious, NK is kind of an interesting theme. The Great leader even has his own band (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AGyHKMttTw) now.
Post by: Sinistar on July 16, 2015, 03:02:53 pm
The scandalous part came later, when it was found out their commission, which was held in high praise by the judges and state officials alike... was in fact just an old Nazi propaganda poster that was tweaked a bit. Changing German eagle for a dove or maybe seagull and such. The hilarity.
Post by: XXSockXX on July 16, 2015, 03:11:43 pm
Post by: Sinistar on July 16, 2015, 03:32:39 pm
I wonder if they'll play this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB9lObWclFQ)? Would be cool to see the reaction of people if they did. Actually, it would be cool if the whole thing was filmed. I bet DVDs would sell like hot bums.
Post by: SirQuiamus on July 17, 2015, 05:00:33 am
It's literally the sound of sucking up to the worst totalitarian regime on the planet, but hey, they're doing it for the lulz, just like Rodman. Did I mention it's totally ironic?
Post by: misko27 on August 07, 2015, 12:02:42 am
Quote from: KCNA
The wicked Japanese imperialists committed such unpardonable crimes as depriving Korea of even its standard time while mercilessly trampling down its land with 5,000 year-long history and culture and pursuing the unheard-of policy of obliterating the Korean nationThe new time zone will be 30 minutes behind where it is currently.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 07, 2015, 02:01:51 am
You are all henceforth required to play this track on infinite loop while viewing this thread as to better venerate the Young General Kim Jong-Un's wise leadership of the Korean people.
Post by: Mech#4 on August 07, 2015, 02:03:01 am
North Korea strikes new blow against imperialism with Pyongyang Standard Time (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/07/us-northkorea-time-idUSKCN0QC04P20150807).Quote from: KCNAThe wicked Japanese imperialists committed such unpardonable crimes as depriving Korea of even its standard time while mercilessly trampling down its land with 5,000 year-long history and culture and pursuing the unheard-of policy of obliterating the Korean nationThe new time zone will be 30 minutes behind where it is currently.
Chances this was done because someone was 30 minutes late to a meeting or similar?
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 07, 2015, 07:00:42 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 07, 2015, 07:05:30 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 12, 2015, 05:27:58 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on August 12, 2015, 05:43:55 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on August 12, 2015, 10:17:03 pm
Launch furious brilliant exploit infused on the ribbon! Justice of brave marines fighting parted way!
We live in the sky to the ground after, we are the Lanes pilot! Here at home without fuzzy, we can not leave the sky alive! Shield to protect the country we blot in the sky! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQotKoEBjyk)
Can't make fun of the segment for the tankers, it was pretty solid. PBIs don't get any love, though, even in Best Korea.
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 13, 2015, 05:19:05 am
Another senior North Korean executed for disputing supreme leader's forestation policy. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33882799) Kimmy loves his trees. I also love the symbolism in Kim preserving the trees whilst his people starve.The trees are his people. Kim is an undercover tree, sent from the Amazon to take over the world and stop deforestation.
Post by: hops on August 13, 2015, 05:52:05 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 13, 2015, 05:53:46 am
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 05:54:59 am
Another senior North Korean executed for disputing supreme leader's forestation policy. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33882799) Kimmy loves his trees. I also love the symbolism in Kim preserving the trees whilst his people starve.
I'm getting a Red Queen vibe. "What do you mean, ash? I asked for an oak! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"
Post by: hops on August 13, 2015, 06:03:58 am
Post by: RedKing on August 13, 2015, 09:25:24 am
"Let them eat bark! And then shoot them for eating the bark."
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 17, 2015, 04:31:45 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on August 17, 2015, 07:36:29 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on August 20, 2015, 10:16:05 am
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/20/432993526/north-and-south-korea-trade-artillery-fire-no-one-is-hurt
Post by: martinuzz on August 21, 2015, 04:40:22 am
They can't even hit a stationairy target. But I guess that is kind of hard when you are trembling from hunger.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 21, 2015, 05:33:11 am
What's disturbingly funny about it is that apparently the NK attack missed the loudspeaker and left it intact.Or they didn't even intend to hit it.
They can't even hit a stationairy target. But I guess that is kind of hard when you are trembling from hunger.
EDIT: A detailed analysis of the artillery duel, courtesy of Nknews.org (http://www.nknews.org/2015/08/analysis-august-20-korean-dmz-fire-exchange).
In case you can't access it due to paywall, here's the full text of the article:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TempAcc on August 21, 2015, 07:34:47 am
This time however, the aggression escalated a bit more then usual. If reports from internal tension in NK's core government are to be believed, NK's dear leader is becoming more and more desperate/extremist.
Post by: da_nang on August 22, 2015, 02:29:57 am
Start the betting war.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 22, 2015, 04:23:14 am
Post by: Bauglir on August 22, 2015, 11:39:27 am
Time til NK declares war (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150822T17&p0=205&msg=Time+til+War&font=cursive&swk=1)It's... counting up?
Start the betting war.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 22, 2015, 11:50:30 am
Post by: Culise on August 22, 2015, 11:52:46 am
That's because we're...8 and a bit hours behind schedule now.Time til NK declares war (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150822T17&p0=205&msg=Time+til+War&font=cursive&swk=1)It's... counting up?
Start the betting war.
Post by: SirQuiamus on August 22, 2015, 01:13:03 pm
Post by: smjjames on August 22, 2015, 02:27:23 pm
Post by: Culise on August 22, 2015, 03:14:20 pm
Post by: mainiac on August 22, 2015, 05:36:15 pm
31 men from North Korea were sent across the DMZ to assassinate the President of South Korea which ended in a running battle outside the Blue House (for analogy, imagine a firefight right outside the White House or Westminster Palace)
Does asia just turn into an action movie universe when there aren't any white people around to killjoy? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi%27an_Incident)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on August 23, 2015, 04:24:18 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 23, 2015, 05:25:33 am
Post by: Ddynamo on August 23, 2015, 06:56:38 am
North Korea will never cause wwiii
No, they'll cause World War Uno.
By far the worst joke I've ever made.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 23, 2015, 06:57:05 am
PLUS FUCKING TWO
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on August 23, 2015, 07:05:11 am
By far the worst joke I've ever made.Be proud of what you have accomplished here today.
Post by: smjjames on August 23, 2015, 10:00:17 am
North Korea will never cause wwiii
Yeah, at this point, China would rather drop NK like a hot potato at the first chance it gets and it has nothing to gain and quite a lot to lose from joining into a war on NKs side.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 23, 2015, 11:07:12 am
Post by: redwallzyl on October 10, 2015, 11:15:28 am
Glorious best Korean parade!
totally don't look terrified and begging not to be killed!
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/10/10/ap_170079265949-1-_custom-53221f4d9a606748d2166f0615dda4ba32caddca-s800-c85.jpg)
Post by: IronyOwl on October 10, 2015, 06:48:36 pm
That's probably racist but they look tiny.
Post by: Akura on October 10, 2015, 07:51:34 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/10/447462584/in-pictures-at-military-parade-north-korean-leader-says-hes-ready-for-war
Glorious best Korean parade!
I believe that he's ready for war against the US. He's well-fed. The rest of his country, though...
Also, look at the first picture in that article. All those hats facing the other direction, except for that one guy. Guess who's next to be shot with an anti-aircraft gun~!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on October 10, 2015, 10:56:10 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on October 10, 2015, 11:05:27 pm
Hold on, take a look at those planes in that last photo. Are those single-engine planes?they in fact appear to be biplains.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on October 10, 2015, 11:07:59 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on October 10, 2015, 11:14:59 pm
So do you think that this was an air show or is their air force made of hipsters who insist on being retro?how dare you insult glorious peoples airforce of best Korea!
they probably don't have enough obsolete cold war jets to look as impressive from a distance. that or thats the sum total of their capible pilots flying the only non broken planes they have fuel for. :P
Post by: hops on October 11, 2015, 05:09:05 am
Any time now.
Aaaaaaaaany time now.
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on October 11, 2015, 05:42:35 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 11, 2015, 01:59:38 pm
Is the jet slow enough to even draw a firing solution? Is it worth using missiles? A sidewinder costs 600,000 dollars.
I suppose they could just ignore them but since they can carry bombs and rockets they'd have to eventually do something about them. Shoot htem with machineguns?
Oh wait, military industrial complex. Shoot the missiles, that just means we have to buy more.
Post by: Strife26 on October 11, 2015, 02:20:10 pm
If we're in for the Korean War to get hot again, the cost of a few missiles isn't going to be much compared to the total bill.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 11, 2015, 05:03:59 pm
Now I'm curious about how that'd go down. I assume they have jets too, but they've released pics of armed An-2sThere were jet fighters at the parade. (https://youtu.be/PzPvhrh7gLM?t=4836) NPR just decided not to include the photo of them in their article.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 12, 2015, 01:01:32 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 03, 2015, 10:11:43 pm
Post by: Descan on December 03, 2015, 10:19:53 pm
Yes, yes, Euroskeptics and all that rot. How unsettling.Wat.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 03, 2015, 10:21:24 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on December 03, 2015, 10:22:39 pm
I have no idea what's happening either.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 03, 2015, 10:23:28 pm
Now that's just asinine, we've all seen John Oliver's expose on how refugees are statistically unlikely to be terrorists, and he's kind of still British.Yes, yes, Euroskeptics and all that rot. How unsettling.Wat.
But beyond that, I think the important thing here is to consider that if Bulgaria is really going to join NATO, the USA should be expelled from it. It was always really more of a continental defense organization, if you know what I mean.
Remember to vote UKIP in the next election, doesn't matter which country, Nigel Farage best day of my life!
Post by: IronyOwl on December 03, 2015, 10:39:14 pm
But beyond that, I think the important thing here is to consider that if Bulgaria is really going to join NATO, the USA should be expelled from it. It was always really more of a continental defense organization, if you know what I mean.best get a bigger continent then m8
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2015, 10:48:17 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 03, 2015, 10:54:36 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 03, 2015, 10:55:42 pm
But beyond that, I think the important thing here is to consider that if Bulgaria is really going to join NATO, the USA should be expelled from it. It was always really more of a continental defense organization, if you know what I mean.
I had to look up Bulgaria to see where they were #USAianProblems. Apparently they're bordered on the south by Greece & Turkey, and on the east by the Black Sea. To the north is Romania (and then north of Romania is the Ukraine). Greece and Turkey are both in NATO, so I'm not sure what Russia's problem is.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 03, 2015, 10:57:49 pm
I had to look up Bulgaria to see where they were #USAianProblems.On behalf of Bulgaria you have made a terrible mistake and must review your life
Apparently they're bordered on the south by Greece & Turkey, and on the east by the Black Sea. To the north is Romania (and then north of Romania is the Ukraine). Greece and Turkey are both in NATO, so I'm not sure what Russia's problem is.Your existence is engineered to infuriate map fetishists
I wish to support your cause great leader
Post by: Sheb on December 04, 2015, 05:09:35 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 04, 2015, 06:07:37 am
So apparently Poland can't into space, but it can into bad government. (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21679470-new-government-poland-has-made-awful-start-europes-new-headache?fsrc=rss%7Clea&utm_campaign=%23Industry&utm_term=%23Success&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)There was that one Pole on the other forum who said that this party is going to do some major shit to Poland. Seems like he was right. If his other predictions are right, too, we can expect in the future some more news of Polish catholic crusaders brutally oppressing everyone that doesn't comply with the Bible, with vocal support from the government.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 04, 2015, 09:23:02 am
Bad news for bureaucrats, good news for poliakov
Post by: Sergarr on December 04, 2015, 10:09:16 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 04, 2015, 10:22:26 am
And for fun:
Spoiler: Try to make worse borders (click to show/hide)
Post by: Strife26 on December 04, 2015, 10:51:50 am
Post by: Descan on December 04, 2015, 11:23:21 am
Post by: Mephansteras on December 04, 2015, 11:37:57 am
Post by: TempAcc on December 04, 2015, 11:45:26 am
Also what happens after Putin dies, there are only so many times you can replace him with a double
And for fun:Spoiler: Try to make worse borders (click to show/hide)
Oh my god.
I love how a part of belarus is basically a giant middle finger.
Post by: miauw62 on December 04, 2015, 11:47:55 am
Post by: Baffler on December 04, 2015, 02:01:00 pm
Also, New Colorado (Lux) splitting Norway and Sweden down the middle.
Post by: miauw62 on December 04, 2015, 02:19:02 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 04, 2015, 02:53:09 pm
Also what happens after Putin dies, there are only so many times you can replace him with a double
Since we're already in full shitpost territory, here's an answer from the Russian /pol/ (or /po/, as it is called on Russian imageboards):
Spoiler: "You will all squeal like bitches..." (click to show/hide)
Post by: Strife26 on December 04, 2015, 03:09:51 pm
Make the Vatican independent of Rome and include Sealand
I stand corrected, actually. Zooming in shows some of the Vatican territory in there. Lets rezone the area as listed. There's certainly precent in the way the middle east was divided up
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 04, 2015, 04:58:42 pm
Holy shit, I need to learn Russian. That has got to be the most amazing experience.
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 04, 2015, 06:37:17 pm
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 05, 2015, 01:04:26 am
Hold the fuck up. There's a Russian /pol/?Russian /pol/ (/po/) has mostly been a battleground between Putin's supporters and opponents: mutual insults, accusations of being a CIA/Putin shill, "Russia/'insert country name here' is done for", "U LIE!!1!1", "+15 roubles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades)", "PROOFS???" and other things galore. Conspiracy theories and neo-Nazism can hardly be found there, unlike /pol/. With the war in Ukraine being frozen it's more peaceful in there comparing to last year.
Holy shit, I need to learn Russian. That has got to be the most amazing experience.
Here's /po/ of 2ch.hk (http://2ch.hk/po/), for example. Right now people are actually discussing world events, philosophy and troll posts claiming to be from the future when Navalny rules Russia. Back in the day, trolls pretending to be Russian MPs (with masterfully shopped proofs) claimed that Putin was about to launch a nuclear strike on the United States - a massive shitstorm ensued.
Its slang is nigh untranslatable into English, though - for example, the usual term for Russia is "Pidorusshka", and its people are often called vatniks, "rusnya" and other similarly colourful terms like pigdogs. Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 05, 2015, 02:13:50 am
Russian /pol/ (/po/) has mostly been a battleground between Putin's supporters and opponents: mutual insults, accusations of being a CIA/Putin shill, "Russia/'insert country name here' is done for", "U LIE!!1!1", "+15 roubles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades)", "PROOFS???" and other things galore. Conspiracy theories and neo-Nazism can hardly be found there, unlike /pol/. With the war in Ukraine being frozen it's more peaceful in there comparing to last year.I gotta say, aside from those two things that sounds pretty exactly like /pol/. I'm surprised at a lack of neo-Nazis, while /pol/'s NatSocs are admittedly at least half ironic shitposters and undercover shills who are never found out by the other, genuine half, Russia's far-right does kind of have a reputation...
Quote
Here's /po/ of 2ch.hk (http://2ch.hk/po/), for example. Right now people are actually discussing world events, philosophy and troll posts claiming to be from the future when Navalny rules Russia.Ho shit, that guy is something else, I've never even heard of him before now. A LiveJournal blogger who gets memed into prominence, advocates democracy and anti-corruption, and occasionally just so happens to protest with neo-Nazis and call for the extermination of ethnic minorities as cockroaches. "The man Putin fears most", wonders will never cease.
Quote
Its slang is nigh untranslatable into English, though - for example, the usual term for Russia isDamnit, internet dialect ruins everything again.
Quote
Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).I am deeply disappointed to find out the etymology of that isn't Pinto -> Exploding Cars -> Hollywood ->Americans are bloodthirsty imperialists.
Post by: Helgoland on December 05, 2015, 08:39:51 am
Ho shit, that guy is something else, I've never even heard of him before now. A LiveJournal blogger who gets memed into prominence, advocates democracy and anti-corruption, and occasionally just so happens to protest with neo-Nazis and call for the extermination of ethnic minorities as cockroaches. "The man Putin fears most", wonders will never cease.Always remember, kids: Back in the day, fascism was a progressive ideology.
Post by: Sergarr on December 05, 2015, 09:05:06 am
And eugenics was a legitimate scientific subject, while racism was regarded as scientific truth.Ho shit, that guy is something else, I've never even heard of him before now. A LiveJournal blogger who gets memed into prominence, advocates democracy and anti-corruption, and occasionally just so happens to protest with neo-Nazis and call for the extermination of ethnic minorities as cockroaches. "The man Putin fears most", wonders will never cease.Always remember, kids: Back in the day, fascism was a progressive ideology.
Late 19th century - early 20th century was pretty big on stereotypical mad science, if you think about it.
Post by: Descan on December 05, 2015, 12:35:08 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 05, 2015, 12:43:58 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 05, 2015, 12:55:36 pm
But how about that DPRK, y'all?
DPRK? Europe? What's the difference?
Post by: redwallzyl on December 05, 2015, 12:57:38 pm
Pretty sure Frankenstein wasn't written as "insane pseudoscience" so much as "fantastic idea 20 minutes into the future" a la FTL drive today. So yeah, mad science abounds.wasn't it written on a drunken bet or something?
Post by: Culise on December 05, 2015, 01:16:42 pm
((That said, I don't think it was necessarily drunken; it was basically a writing challenge since they were all stuck indoors due to rain.))
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 05, 2015, 02:01:15 pm
Post by: scriver on December 05, 2015, 02:09:12 pm
So definitely mad science.
Post by: Mr. Strange on December 05, 2015, 03:59:23 pm
Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).Out of curiosity, what are finnish called? Or swedish or other european countries?
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 05, 2015, 05:16:25 pm
Чухо́нцы. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukhna)Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).Out of curiosity, what are finnish called?
Post by: Mr. Strange on December 06, 2015, 01:06:21 pm
So that's where tsuhna (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tsuhna) comes from! Learn something new everyday...Чухо́нцы. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukhna)Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).Out of curiosity, what are finnish called?
Post by: Baffler on December 06, 2015, 01:40:10 pm
Чухо́нцы. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukhna)Other nations are denoted with widely used ethnic slurs (an American is a Pindos, for example).Out of curiosity, what are finnish called?
Quote
In the 2002 Russian Census, 15 persons described themselves as "Chukhontsy".
Top lel.
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 06, 2015, 08:23:55 pm
No, that's totally not an angry mob with torches and pitchforks, and yes, we are a civilized European nation and you Ruskis have no right to laugh at us!
Post by: Sheb on December 07, 2015, 01:03:56 am
Post by: Erkki on December 07, 2015, 04:36:37 am
Hey, look! The чухо́нцы are celebrating their independence from barbaric Tsarist oppression. (https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/673604023359000576) Isn't it cute!
No, that's totally not an angry mob with torches and pitchforks, and yes, we are a civilized European nation and you Ruskis have no right to laugh at us!
To be fair there were only a hundred of them and the whole event was badly organized, by angry idiots. The invitation was public and the police were basically just waiting for them at the meeting point in riot gear and with some mounted officers, and held most of them there before putting them into buses. The so called "far right" held their 300-odd person march to the cemetery legally and in order, and there were zero issues. While the counterprotesters(anarchists for freedom, against violence, racism and "fascism") wearing robes and masks and black flags holding flares, were there again illegally and were themselves the usual violent angry mob they are throwing stuff at the police, the peaceful protesters and breaking stuff. For the first time since several decades in Finland, the police used force and hit someone in the eye with an FN riot air gun. :P
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2015, 05:33:12 am
Post by: martinuzz on December 07, 2015, 05:52:41 am
The thieves put up the paintings for sale on an Ukrainian website, where they were spotted by the museum's investigator. They obviously are clueless about the real price of the paintings, since the price they are asking is 10 times their value. (The paintings are worth about half a million, the thieves ask 5 million).
The museum's director said: "our collection is in posession of deeply corrupt figures, from the elite of the Ukraine government."
Post by: Erkki on December 07, 2015, 05:54:37 am
I am fairly certain to assume Quiamus was talking about the demonstrants with the "torch mob" comment, not the "anti-fascist" fascists.
Ahh yeah, probably true. The peaceful ones were the ones with(legal) torches, while the police took away flares from the angry mob. Putintrolls havent yet decided who are theirs and who are the nazis or pro-nato-agitators.
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 07, 2015, 06:06:35 am
Right-wing mob: "Our stated goal is to overthrow the government, establish a totalitarian dictatorship, and purge all the ethnic minorities, but we are willing to pay lip-service to laws and democracy and freeze peach and all that hypocritical bullshit."Hey, look! The чухо́нцы are celebrating their independence from barbaric Tsarist oppression. (https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/673604023359000576) Isn't it cute!
No, that's totally not an angry mob with torches and pitchforks, and yes, we are a civilized European nation and you Ruskis have no right to laugh at us!
To be fair there were only a hundred of them and the whole event was badly organized, by angry idiots. The invitation was public and the police were basically just waiting for them at the meeting point in riot gear and with some mounted officers, and held most of them there before putting them into buses. The so called "far right" held their 300-odd person march to the cemetery legally and in order, and there were zero issues. While the counterprotesters(anarchists for freedom, against violence, racism and "fascism") wearing robes and masks and black flags holding flares, were there again illegally and were themselves the usual violent angry mob they are throwing stuff at the police, the peaceful protesters and breaking stuff. For the first time since several decades in Finland, the police used force and hit someone in the eye with an FN riot air gun. :P
Left-wing mob: "Our stated goal is to oppose the right-wing mob for obvious reasons, and we are not willing to pay lip-service to laws and democracy and freeze peach and all that hypocritical bullshit."
Can you spot the difference?
EDIT:
Putintrolls havent yet decided who are theirs and who are the nazis or pro-nato-agitators.Putintrolls love flammable things like demonstrations, torches, and reception centres.
(http://blogit.image.fi/uuninpankkopoikasakutimonen/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2015/12/kohta-palaa-1.jpg)
Post by: Erkki on December 07, 2015, 06:30:17 am
The very people who claim to fight for freedom, against totalitarism and racism, are, as demonstrated, willing to use illegal means and violence to stop peaceful means of demonstration if they are against their view of world(whether those include racism or not).
What are these "tolerant, leftist anarchists", but totalitarians themselves?
On the line from MV-magazine/Homma-forum to socioanarchists, I dont familiarize myself with either end. But I like to keep racial questions and immigration/refugees, illegal or not, separate.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 07:29:20 am
Btw German vice chancellor is getting pissy because Saudi Arabia made a few cheeki wahhabi mosques in Germany :^) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12035838/German-vice-chancellor-accuses-Saudi-Arabia-of-funding-Islamic-extremism-in-the-West.html)
I think the Germans should stop being islamaphobic and stop picking on Saudi Arabia just because they hate brown people (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-germany-idUSKBN0TP0H720151206)
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 07, 2015, 07:29:57 am
The difference is that only one side promoted and used violence.Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Both sides promoted violence, but only one side got a chance to use it because the cops got in between. Both sides are violent, illiberal idiots with openly seditious ideologies, but only one side is blatantly hypocritical about it---can you guess which one?
I'd like to remind you that half of these torch-carrying "peaceful demonstrators celebrating Finnish independence" want our country to be annexed by Sweden (after they've gassed all the darkies), and the other half support the Russian far-right and their annexation of Finland. "But liberalism has to tolerate even ideologies that expressly undermine liberalism!" Yeah, that worked splendidly in the Weimar republic, let's do just that. Let's tolerate Islamists, Nazis, Anarchists, murderers, rapists, suicide bombers, and absolutely everyone who wants to maim and kill people, because it's just their worldview and everyone is entitled to their opinion, except me.
"I do not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to express it, even if it means I'm not allowed to have any opinions of my own in the gas chamber."
—Not Voltaire, not by a long shot.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 07:34:20 am
Also why aren't you tolerating islamists, that's not very liberal
And I'm not sure if murder, rape and suicide bombing is an ideology but cool beans I'm sure you could find a way to live so
Post by: Erkki on December 07, 2015, 07:47:49 am
The difference is that only one side promoted and used violence.Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Both sides promoted violence, but only one side got a chance to use it because the cops got in between. Both sides are violent, illiberal idiots with openly seditious ideologies, but only one side is blatantly hypocritical about it---can you guess which one?
I'd like to remind you that half of these torch-carrying "peaceful demonstrators celebrating Finnish independence" want our country to be annexed by Sweden (after they've gassed all the darkies), and the other half support the Russian far-right and their annexation of Finland. "But liberalism has to tolerate even ideologies that expressly undermine liberalism!" Yeah, that worked splendidly in the Weimar republic, let's do just that. Let's tolerate Islamists, Nazis, Anarchists, murderers, rapists, suicide bombers, and absolutely everyone who wants to maim and kill people, because it's just their worldview and everyone is entitled to their opinion, except me.
"I do not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to express it, even if it means I'm not allowed to have any opinions of my own in the gas chamber."
—Not Voltaire, not by a long shot.
You just ignored the fact that one side was in fact violent, while the other was not. Despite of several provenly extreme right wing figures taking part to it(or well, as right wing as one can get within Finland, our extreme right wingers would be in the center or even left in many places). Do you consider violence to be an acceptable means, as a tool of everyday life politics, in getting ones will through?
It was the "leftist" "anarchists" that threw rocks, glass bottles, spray painted stuff, yelled slurs and kept harassing and pushing the police and in the end most of them got themselves arrested, some individuals even shot at, while the "racists" just walked from place A to B, sung a song or two and only allowed the national flag and its colors to be used.
Good intentions or not, both the plan and the execution on the behalf of the anarchists was terrible and that is no way to get any good publicity for their cause, that seems to revolve around violence(which nationalism itself is not).
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 07, 2015, 07:48:18 am
Also why aren't you tolerating islamists, that's not very liberalAu Contraire! I support all violence because violence---c'est just le matter of opinion.
Bombing people is "enrichment," shooting people is "constructive criticism," burning houses is "rational discourse," stabbing people is "cultural dialogue," &c. &c. [E: Wait, wouldn't you rather say that burning houses is constructive criticism, or enrichment if you're the owner? Sounds about right.]
Oui! Je suis un Liberal! Je suis le Last Liberal!
EDIT:
Do you consider violence to be an acceptable means, as a tool of everyday life politics, in getting ones will through?[dead_serious] No. [/dead_serious]
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2015, 09:02:37 am
The difference is that only one side promoted and used violence.Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Both sides promoted violence, but only one side got a chance to use it because the cops got in between. Both sides are violent, illiberal idiots with openly seditious ideologies, but only one side is blatantly hypocritical about it---can you guess which one?
I see both parts as equally hypocritical. Actually, no, the right wingers are deceitful, insidious, and corruptive, but the "anarchists" are the bigger hypocrites. At least here in Sweden, right wing political violence is much less common than political violence from the left wing.
Quote
I'd like to remind you that half of these torch-carrying "peaceful demonstrators celebrating Finnish independence" want our country to be annexed by Sweden (after they've gassed all the darkies), and the other half support the Russian far-right and their annexation of Finland. "But liberalism has to tolerate even ideologies that expressly undermine liberalism!" Yeah, that worked splendidly in the Weimar republic, let's do just that. Let's tolerate Islamists, Nazis, Anarchists, murderers, rapists, suicide bombers, and absolutely everyone who wants to maim and kill people, because it's just their worldview and everyone is entitled to their opinion, except me.
"I do not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to express it, even if it means I'm not allowed to have any opinions of my own in the gas chamber."
—Not Voltaire, not by a long shot.
This is very strange because as I see it, it's people like "anti-fascists" and "anarchists" that will join hands with islamists and conservative immigrants to threaten and hurt people as soon as somebody shouts "racism".
Quote
I'd like to remind you that half of these torch-carrying "peaceful demonstrators celebrating Finnish independence" want our country to be annexed by Sweden (after they've gassed all the darkies)
What kind of crappy Finnish nazis would want Finland annexed by Sweden? Were they fenno-swedes?
Post by: Sergarr on December 07, 2015, 09:36:09 am
is there something our authorities are not telling us about the nordic countries?
Post by: smjjames on December 07, 2015, 09:42:49 am
what is with this sudden outburst of verbal violence
is there something our authorities are not telling us about the nordic countries?
Read SATW comic sometime and you'll get a little bit of insight into politics.
Sounds like a Nordic thing anyway.
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2015, 09:51:16 am
what is with this sudden outburst of verbal violence
is there something our authorities are not telling us about the nordic countries?
I don't know, I don't know what your authorities are telling you :P
Read SATW comic sometime and you'll get a little bit of insight into politics.
Sounds like a Nordic thing anyway.
SATW will give you about as much insight into anything as staring a cow up the arse will do. And you won't see nearly as much shit in the cow.
Post by: smjjames on December 07, 2015, 09:52:30 am
what is with this sudden outburst of verbal violence
is there something our authorities are not telling us about the nordic countries?
I don't know, I don't know what your authorities are telling you :PRead SATW comic sometime and you'll get a little bit of insight into politics.
Sounds like a Nordic thing anyway.
SATW will give you about as much insight into anything as staring a cow up the arse will do. And you won't see nearly as much shit in the cow.
It does sort of give you an idea of the relationships though, in a stretchy way.....
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2015, 10:01:59 am
Post by: smjjames on December 07, 2015, 10:09:33 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on December 07, 2015, 10:15:40 am
Post by: Dutchling on December 07, 2015, 10:42:33 am
Post by: Erkki on December 07, 2015, 10:56:06 am
What kind of crappy Finnish nazis would want Finland annexed by Sweden? Were they fenno-swedes?
They do have some ideas about having this Nordic nation in which all
Post by: Naryar on December 07, 2015, 11:25:46 am
I can't help but think it's 1933 all over again even if I pertinently know that is overdramatic bs.
Maybe "World War Three" will be an asymetrical, decentralized, globalized warfare ?
Post by: Descan on December 07, 2015, 12:01:38 pm
will they be made honorary members of the eu or
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2015, 12:25:10 pm
What kind of crappy Finnish nazis would want Finland annexed by Sweden? Were they fenno-swedes?
They do have some ideas about having this Nordic nation in which allAryanstrue Nordic people live after brown people have been dealt away with. I'm not sure how widespread that is among the them, though. It's not like the many, tiny right wing factions(many not national socialistic at all) are a big political player any way, so far they have been mostly harmless. They're daydreaming, like the social anarchists, and throw beer cans at the police, spray paint stuff or break windows at best once a year.
Ah, pan-nationalists. Well, it didn't work out very well for them at the height of nationalism, so I don't think they'll ever be very influential now either.
Post by: Helgoland on December 07, 2015, 12:48:08 pm
Oh hey, the far right wing is winning in france. Yay, all that we need is more extremes.With Germany playing the part of overly pacifist head-in-the-sand continental power... Fun times ahead, I guess.
I can't help but think it's 1933 all over again even if I pertinently know that is overdramatic bs.
Post by: Sergarr on December 07, 2015, 12:51:27 pm
or will they be beaten to the task by poland
or they'll make a M-R pact dividing spheres of influence
Post by: Helgoland on December 07, 2015, 01:10:50 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 07, 2015, 01:19:06 pm
Post by: martinuzz on December 07, 2015, 01:31:36 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 07, 2015, 01:48:23 pm
Oh God, I can imagine the brutal artillery duels along the Rhine... My town will be burned to cinders!ENLEVER KRAUT retirer kraut
vous êtes pire deutsch. vous êtes l'idiot du deutsch vous êtes l'odeur wurst. retourner à Brandebourg. à nos cousins de Brandebourg vous pouvez venir à notre contry. vous pouvez vivre en Corse ... .ahahahaha, Autriche, nous ne seront jamais vous forgeve. tchetnik baiser coquin mais connard baise deutsch puanteur autriche sqhipere shqipare .. 8 mai 1945 plus beau jour de ma vie. prendre un bain de kraut..ahahahahahDEUTSCHLAND sure NOUS VOUS GET !! oublier WW2 .denmark nous tuons le roi, le retour au Danemark à votre précieuse corée ... .hahahahaha idiote deutsch et l'odeur autrichienne afin bad..wow i peuvent sentir. ENLEVER KRAUT des locaux. vous aurez pris. russie + France + Grèce + Donetsk = tuer autriche ... vous WW2 / tupac vivante dans alsase-lorraine, tupac faisant album de France. rap rapide tupac France. Nous sommes riches et ont vin maintenant hahahaha hectares en raison de Tupac ... vous ppoor puanteur kraut ... vous vivez dans un hahahaha masure, vous vivez dans un rathaus
tupac numbr vie d'un numeren 1 en France ... .fuck les autriche, .. boches FucKK ashol pas bon je crache dans les yeux de la bouche d'Ur drapeau et contry. 2pac Aliv et véritable magicien forte tuent toutes les deutsch aminal agricole avec le rap magie maintenant, nous l'excluons France .ape du zoo presidant Andrea Merkel FUKC le grand satan et laïcs oeuf cette éclosion des œufs et l'Autriche wa; s né. former bébé stupide l'eggn donner bak notre chardonnay nous allons écraser u lik un crâne de cochon. France de la pai
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 02:37:24 pm
Au Contraire! I support all violence because violence---c'est just le matter of opinion.Aw yis let's get culturally enriched
Bombing people is "enrichment," shooting people is "constructive criticism," burning houses is "rational discourse," stabbing people is "cultural dialogue," &c. &c. [E: Wait, wouldn't you rather say that burning houses is constructive criticism, or enrichment if you're the owner? Sounds about right.]
Oui! Je suis un Liberal! Je suis le Last Liberal!
Yeah that's called the EUWhat kind of crappy Finnish nazis would want Finland annexed by Sweden? Were they fenno-swedes?They do have some ideas about having this Nordic nation in which allAryanstrue Nordic people live after brown people have been dealt away with. I'm not sure how widespread that is among the them, though. It's not like the many, tiny right wing factions(many not national socialistic at all) are a big political player any way, so far they have been mostly harmless. They're daydreaming, like the social anarchists, and throw beer cans at the police, spray paint stuff or break windows at best once a year.
Also check your privilege, Finns are proud Mongols
Spoiler: check my science chart (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 07, 2015, 02:42:32 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 02:44:14 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 07, 2015, 02:45:13 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 02:48:22 pm
/int/ is distilled shitpost
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 07, 2015, 02:55:16 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 07, 2015, 03:00:53 pm
It's a relative thing. /int/ was most certainly born in the darkness, but I recall it not having the undercurrent of /pol/ natsocs that it does now.That's about as retarded as saying /b/ was never racist, the halfchan /int/ you see now is flooded with reddit normies who like polandball
Who do you think created Sweden YES? Rhymes with lint
Spoiler: in other news (click to show/hide)
Post by: Guardian G.I. on December 07, 2015, 05:00:38 pm
It's a relative thing. /int/ was most certainly born in the darkness, but I recall it not having the undercurrent of /pol/ natsocs that it does now.That's about as retarded as saying /b/ was never racist, the halfchan /int/ you see now is flooded with reddit normies who like polandball
Which is pretty ironic, because Polandball was created by Krautchan's /int/.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 10, 2015, 12:29:06 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 10, 2015, 02:01:43 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 10, 2015, 05:04:31 pm
(https://insideoutandbackwards.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ralph-with-leprechaun.jpg)
Suddenly the last four years start making sense
Post by: Frumple on December 10, 2015, 05:09:58 pm
Post by: wierd on December 10, 2015, 05:15:11 pm
Here's some actual North Korea news. (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-claims-country-has-hydrogen-bomb?cid=sm_fb_msnbc)
The world will thank us for freeing them from your imperialism! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zwirfmGIU)
Post by: Bouchart on December 10, 2015, 07:35:57 pm
I shit you not: the Spanish Internal Affairs minister has claimed in a major newspaper that he has a guardian angel called Marcelo, on whom he relies for advice. Particularily in regards to parking the car.
Well, has he gotten any parking tickets lately?
Post by: Culise on December 10, 2015, 11:16:53 pm
I, uh. That -elo seems to suggest that whatever it is, it's not an angel >_>What's wrong with the letter "o"? The only thing I can think of is that it denotes a masculine noun in Spanish, but all of the named archangels in Christianity are...well, genderless, I believe, but uniformly depicted as masculine, so unless I'm incorrect (easily the case), that's likely not the hang-up you're thinking of.
Post by: Sheb on December 11, 2015, 08:06:15 am
Post by: martinuzz on December 11, 2015, 08:15:05 am
North Korean boat filled with bodies are washing up on the coast of Japan. (http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21679827-young-dictators-grim-hand-may-reach-even-out-sea-ghost-vessels-north-korea)That link is unreadable without creating an account at the Economist
Post by: TempAcc on December 11, 2015, 08:17:49 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: martinuzz on December 11, 2015, 08:28:11 am
Post by: Sheb on December 11, 2015, 09:26:08 am
Interestingly, they want the power to deploy their border guards even if the state they're deployed to object. Of course, so few men won't make much of a difference at first, but if that agency is expanded, they could become a major force. I welcome it of course, just as the Euro crisis showed that a common monetary policy without fiscal transfers is doomed, the current refugee crisis show the issue of a border-free zone without a European framework to manage it. It could also make the refugees resettlement deal easier to swallow for Eastern European.
Post by: Helgoland on December 11, 2015, 11:36:31 pm
Post by: Descan on December 11, 2015, 11:55:54 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 12, 2015, 12:52:47 am
Just close the screen popup thing. I can read it fine, but I'll post it here just in case:
I don't even get a popup, and it's fully readable, but I never allowed them to run any scripts, so that would be why.
... if the bodies were cremated, how could they have died at sea all alone? ... Stupid imprecise language.
Post by: Sheb on December 12, 2015, 04:34:00 am
How are these guys goiing to be financed?
Same way the rest of EU institutions are financed I guess.
Post by: miauw62 on December 12, 2015, 04:35:37 am
Post by: scriver on December 12, 2015, 05:40:22 am
How are these guys goiing to be financed?
Same way the rest of EU institutions are financed I guess.
Bye Sweden, in other words.
Yay!
(this post is bitter exaggeration. Do we have a font for that yet?)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 13, 2015, 09:07:29 am
By trying to steal my shekels, failing, opting for yuropoor monies insteadHow are these guys goiing to be financed?Same way the rest of EU institutions are financed I guess.
aw those poor sodsVery rare to have an occupation with higher mortality rates than fishermen
rip in squid
Post by: redwallzyl on December 13, 2015, 03:13:09 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 13, 2015, 03:56:20 pm
Post by: Sergarr on December 13, 2015, 04:24:24 pm
Post by: Baffler on December 13, 2015, 04:31:26 pm
Post by: Frumple on December 13, 2015, 05:04:47 pm
I mean, 600 meters is quite a lot of distance for personal weapons.Sorta'? I mean, a bog standard .22 hunting rifle can kill from further out than that (I've personally seen 'em drop wildlife at a further distance a couple times*), it's just not exactly likely. Accuracy's mostly pants, fair bit of the killing force bleeds off, etc., etc., but it's still entirely capable of putting someone/thing in a grave. It doesn't matter how far out something is, you don't shoot at something you don't intend to kill, pretty much period.
E: *Actually, I was forgetting my conversions a bit. I've seen 'em dropped at that distance, but not much further -- five or six football fields out, or ~5-600m. Moral of the story, though, don't point a gun at something you don't intend to attempt to kill. If it's in sight distance, consider it being within mortal wound distance. It honestly doesn't matter if it is or not, you treat it that way.
Post by: Reelya on December 14, 2015, 01:06:27 am
Erdogan has a lot more reasons to flex his muscles against the Russians than they do to take pot-shots at him. I'm thinking the Turkish hawks are seeing regional instability as an excuse to expand Turkish power via military means, and keeping things as destabilized as possible helps in that aim. Russian forces are just an easier scapegoat than taking pot-shots at NATO forces.
http://nypost.com/2015/06/04/turkeys-strongman-dashes-another-obama-dream/
Quote
But regardless of the margin of his election victory Sunday, Erdogan’s influence in the region is already a net hindrance. He backs groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and various al Qaeda affiliates against their secular-oriented opponents in the region.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2015, 02:41:58 pm
Post by: Morrigi on December 15, 2015, 12:42:15 pm
Erdogan did nothing wronglol
Post by: smjjames on December 15, 2015, 12:44:56 pm
CNN said that the source of the 'hoax' threat to the NYC school system (they said that the language in it was 'outlandish') seems to be coming from Frankfurt, Germany.
wut...........
I realize it might be proxied to just look like it's coming from Germany, but still, international pranking since when?
Do we have laws here in the US to arrest a German who pulls a stupid prank like that? If it really is coming from there. Or maybe it would be under German jurdicision.
Also, no idea on the LA school district threat....
edit: Now they're saying the LA one was traced to germany, the heck?
Post by: Baffler on December 15, 2015, 02:10:23 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 15, 2015, 02:20:01 pm
I'm guessing it's some idiot teenager who thought it would be funny to pull off that kind of thing and probably thinks they won't get charged just because they aren't in the US.
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2015, 04:23:08 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 15, 2015, 05:48:14 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 15, 2015, 05:52:00 pm
Unless you're a snow Finn with a mission
Aren't they all snow Finns? :D
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2015, 05:54:47 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 15, 2015, 06:00:25 pm
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2015, 06:40:33 pm
Random Turks are equal to SEAL's, right?
Although, assuming that everything happened like it's reported, I totally see the Ruskie's concern. Small boats as a svbied are a serious risk to any navy.
Post by: Shazbot on December 15, 2015, 06:44:06 pm
Simo used a full sized rifle cartridge, not an intermediate round. Even with an intermediate round, it's possible to go further out (especially with good shooting technique and optic), but it's not the general usage.
A survey among German snipers mid-war reported that 600m was "extreme" shooting, 700 the longest any of them bothered at and the preferred range to be 300-400. Marksmen doubted their weapon's lethality at extreme ranges and through heavy clothing. This was with the 7.92 IS and Kar98's. A .22 LR at 600 meters against personnel beggars belief. .223, possibly.
Post by: Strife26 on December 15, 2015, 06:49:55 pm
Post by: Morrigi on December 16, 2015, 04:48:38 am
.223 is certainly lethal and usable out to that range. With a decent bullet drop compensator and standard ammunition, 800 meters isn't unheard of. It is, of course, mostly a question of sight lines and the type of fight one would be getting into. Most fights with small arms take place significantly under 200 meters, hence the universal switch from full size rifle rounds to intermediate ones by ever major military power.That said, .223 does tend to cause relatively minor wounds at those ranges,
Post by: Sheb on December 16, 2015, 05:04:59 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on December 16, 2015, 09:24:59 am
Was it a naval or civilian Turkish ship?It was a fishing boat
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2015, 09:40:46 am
The most insidious of military attack craft.Was it a naval or civilian Turkish ship?It was a fishing boat
Post by: Sheb on December 16, 2015, 09:44:38 am
Post by: smjjames on December 16, 2015, 09:48:00 am
Understandable then. One could imagine an ISIS affiliate loading a ship with explosive.
Especially since it's happened before, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing , the US's policy since has been to warn away small unauthorized boats and kill if they don't move away. I imagine Russia and other navies have taken the same hint as well.
Post by: Morrigi on December 16, 2015, 10:38:01 am
Post by: Zangi on December 16, 2015, 11:15:21 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 16, 2015, 12:58:37 pm
I'm more interested in the first european army myself.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 16, 2015, 01:34:47 pm
I'm more interested in the first european army myself.Absolutely haram
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 16, 2015, 07:48:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 16, 2015, 08:19:43 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 16, 2015, 09:15:04 pm
Post by: Helgoland on December 16, 2015, 10:05:27 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 16, 2015, 10:50:00 pm
How many European heads of state/government have been assasinated in the post-war period anyway? AFAIK there was only Olof Palme...
Which post-war period? WWII or Cold War?
Post by: Helgoland on December 16, 2015, 11:19:18 pm
Post by: scriver on December 17, 2015, 02:20:43 am
Post by: Helgoland on December 17, 2015, 03:00:46 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 17, 2015, 03:53:24 pm
For well known politicians, well, they might be well known in Europe or their home country, but might not be in the US.
Post by: Helgoland on December 17, 2015, 03:55:51 pm
Else we might as well include Mussolini, the Russian Tsar, maybe Stalin...
Post by: smjjames on December 17, 2015, 04:03:14 pm
Sicily is not a nation, no... And I was thinking of modern Western Europe, to be honest :P
Else we might as well include Mussolini, the Russian Tsar, maybe Stalin...
Stalin died of a heart attack, not assassinated, and I am looking at post WWII.
Looking at politicians that are not heads of state, the only ones post WWII that are remotely familiar or known (to me at least) are Louis Montbatten and Boris Nemtsov.
Post by: Bouchart on December 17, 2015, 04:09:25 pm
How many European heads of state/government have been assassinated in the post-war period anyway? AFAIK there was only Olof Palme...
Does Nicolae Ceaușescu count?
Post by: Strife26 on December 17, 2015, 06:09:24 pm
Spanish president getting punched in the face by some guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eudrinKmk8o)
The second best punching video I've seen, I think.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 18, 2015, 01:26:25 am
Sicily is not a nation, no... And I was thinking of modern Western Europe, to be honest :P
Else we might as well include Mussolini, the Russian Tsar, maybe Stalin...
Stalin died of a heart attack, not assassinated, and I am looking at post WWII.
So he was assassinated by entropy? Poor personal habits may have also participated in the daring act.
Post by: Culise on December 18, 2015, 01:55:49 am
Aye. His habit of arresting and/or killing anyone who looked at him funny, including some hundreds of doctors in the months before his death (on charges of conspiracy to assassinate Soviet leaders, no less), meant that no one was willing to risk arrest and execution in order to check on him when he did not come out of his room at dawn as was his usual wont. The only person to dare did so only in the late evening, after which he had likely been suffering the aftereffects of a stroke and internal hemorrhaging for at least 12-18 hours.Sicily is not a nation, no... And I was thinking of modern Western Europe, to be honest :P
Else we might as well include Mussolini, the Russian Tsar, maybe Stalin...
Stalin died of a heart attack, not assassinated, and I am looking at post WWII.
So he was assassinated by entropy? Poor personal habits may have also participated in the daring act.
Post by: scriver on December 18, 2015, 06:18:00 am
Post by: Helgoland on December 18, 2015, 06:52:46 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 18, 2015, 06:54:45 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 18, 2015, 07:32:48 am
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 18, 2015, 07:53:54 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 18, 2015, 08:59:53 am
Who's beria?IIRC internal affairs minister or something analogous to that
he organized Soviet nuclear project during the time when the country was invaded by Nazis, which is not an easy task
he was pretty effective at his role, which is why many people today invoke his name (or Stalin's) whenever they see our corrupt officials being corrupt, implying that all these corruptioneers would've get what they deserve (that is, getting shot) if Beria was still here
Post by: SirQuiamus on December 18, 2015, 09:37:34 am
...many people today invoke his name (or Stalin's) whenever they see our corrupt officials being corrupt, implying that all these corruptioneers would've get what they deserve (that is, getting shot) if Beria was still hereThat's pretty mental, m8.
Post by: martinuzz on December 18, 2015, 10:14:45 am
The new rightwing Polish government has used military force to remove the head of a NATO centre in Warsow, and replaced him with a friend of the political party. This was part of a series of events where the new government of prime minister Beata Szydlo is actively putting loyalists into power in important places.
First time ever since NATO was formed, that a NATO structure was assaulted on NATO grounds, by a NATO member.
This could mean Poland getting kicked out of NATO.
Start embracing your new Russian overlords, my Polish friends.
Post by: andrea on December 18, 2015, 10:17:25 am
The new rightwing Polish government has used military force to remove the head of a NATO centre in Warsow, and replaced him with a friend of the political party.
what.
what is that move even supposed to do?
Post by: martinuzz on December 18, 2015, 10:20:12 am
Ever since the party got into power this november, they have been firing government officials and judges that had been appointed by the previous governments, and replacing them with loyalists.
Post by: smjjames on December 18, 2015, 10:23:55 am
The new rightwing Polish government has used military force to remove the head of a NATO centre in Warsow, and replaced him with a friend of the political party.
what.
what is that move even supposed to do?
Read the previous part, the Polish PM has been filling in positions with party loyalists. Which smacks of corruption really.
Post by: martinuzz on December 18, 2015, 10:25:23 am
Post by: Bouchart on December 18, 2015, 10:26:43 am
This could mean Poland getting kicked out of NATO.
If they don't kick Turkey out of NATO for instigating the Russians they aren't going to kick Poland out of NATO. Not that NATO is doing a whole lot of good these days, anyway.
Post by: smjjames on December 18, 2015, 10:34:50 am
This could mean Poland getting kicked out of NATO.
If they don't kick Turkey out of NATO for instigating the Russians they aren't going to kick Poland out of NATO. Not that NATO is doing a whole lot of good these days, anyway.
Why would they kick Turkey out for defending their airspace? Yes, it was a dick move, but it's not a comparable situation.
Also, my question asking whether Poland usually gets to choose who is the head of the NATO centre in Warsaw didn't get answered, I don't think.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 18, 2015, 11:14:12 am
Well.. we're talking about a 74 year/old man living in the fifties. Of course, we don't know how bad it was, but even today an intracerebral hemorrhage is pretty bad, and back then they were not exactly swimming in modern medical technology. Most likely he would not have recovered from it anyway.Aye. His habit of arresting and/or killing anyone who looked at him funny, including some hundreds of doctors in the months before his death (on charges of conspiracy to assassinate Soviet leaders, no less), meant that no one was willing to risk arrest and execution in order to check on him when he did not come out of his room at dawn as was his usual wont. The only person to dare did so only in the late evening, after which he had likely been suffering the aftereffects of a stroke and internal hemorrhaging for at least 12-18 hours.Sicily is not a nation, no... And I was thinking of modern Western Europe, to be honest :P
Else we might as well include Mussolini, the Russian Tsar, maybe Stalin...
Stalin died of a heart attack, not assassinated, and I am looking at post WWII.
So he was assassinated by entropy? Poor personal habits may have also participated in the daring act.
Post by: Morrigi on December 18, 2015, 12:59:42 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 20, 2015, 04:09:17 pm
FYI, it technically wasn't a NATO installation, and NATO has said that it's an internal Polish matter.
Oh, so Poland does get to choose it's NATO guy?
Also, huhwhat Dennmark? http://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-wants-to-seize-refugees-valuables-crisis/
and
http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-mep-quits-party-over-refugee-confiscation-plan/
Contraband stuff like drugs I can get, but wanting to confiscate valuables other than stuff needed for a modest standard of living like cell phones (though I'm under the impression that most of the refugees are pretty poor) or sentimential items? Really? Pretty sure the US doesn't do that kind of thing.
Post by: martinuzz on December 20, 2015, 04:22:30 pm
(though I'm under the impression that most of the refugees are pretty poor)
Seeing how just paying a smuggler to get you drowned costs around 5000 euros per person, you can be sure that most immigrants that make it to Europe do not come from the 'poor' class. They were at least middle class, if not rich, to be able to afford to get to Europe in the first place.
We don't get the real poor immigrants in Europe. Those are either stuck in Turkish / Jordan refugee camps, or are being killed and raped by whichever militia finds them first.
That being said, well, I suppose it's possible that a lot of those former middle class refugees spent their last financial means on the journey, so yeah, I guess those would be the 'nouveaux pauvres' now.
This Danish idea though, sounds rather harsh. Now if someone arrives with two suitcases full of bar gold, I'd say sure, confiscate most of it, to contribute to the Danish welfare system. But taking people's family heirloom rings and iPods? That's inhumane. Might just as well pull their golden teeth while you're at it.
Post by: Helgoland on December 20, 2015, 08:55:50 pm
Post by: Strife26 on December 20, 2015, 09:33:37 pm
Not too complicated for the semicolon, though
Post by: smjjames on December 20, 2015, 09:38:38 pm
So the Spanish election is over. Results. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_2015#Results)
Lol at the "death to the system" party when they're trying to get into the system....
Also... *is jealous of the successful multi (as in more than two) party system going on there*
Too complicated, didn't get past the graphic.
That's because we're used to having just a two party system where it would be two colors, with maybe one or two of some other color.
Edit: The congress of deputies is their version of the House of Representatives. Edit2: Actually, no, it's their parliament, though it sort of sounds like a mixture between a parliamentary system and our system.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 20, 2015, 09:46:11 pm
Post by: SaberToothTiger on December 21, 2015, 06:17:38 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 08:37:10 am
While he certainly has done a lot of bad things to Russia (the chief among them was the overfocus of the system on himself, which caused USSR to catastrophically self-destruct within a single generation after his death), but he's still a symbol of progress from the ashes among Russians, and even now, despite all the anti-Stalinist propaganda of the government and opposition during the last 25 years, people still remember the almost-legendary time when their country was rocketing forward into the future at a breakneck pace (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/made-in-the-ussr-38442437/?all&no-ist), despite everything and everyone else.
Discuss.
Post by: Strife26 on December 21, 2015, 08:53:37 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 21, 2015, 08:55:45 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 09:49:13 am
Stalin is objectively one of the worst people in history, and his continued veneration by segments of the Russian populace is disquieting.He was one of the worst people in history, but he was one of the better rulers of Russia, in terms of how much was achieved during his rule, in education, in technology, in construction. Such is a paradox of power - a good person is oftentimes not a good ruler, and visa versa.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 21, 2015, 09:56:10 am
Post by: smjjames on December 21, 2015, 10:06:20 am
The greater paradox is probably that of historical analysis. How long after a person's death is it fair to keep weighing the echos of their life? As you yourself said, Stalin can also be attributed the catastrophic self-destruction of Russia later on. And time keeps on slipping. Technically the ripples of any person's actions will continue out into the rest of humanity and the universe for as long as either continue to exist, but how long do they remain significant, especially for someone who distorted everything and everyone he encountered to circle him like some kind of social black hole?
Probably once the generation that knew him dies out. Or maybe once the generation that remembers the Communist era dies out.
Basically, probably not for a very long time.
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 10:21:18 am
Post by: smjjames on December 21, 2015, 11:20:42 am
Maybe a better example would be Peter the Great rather than the American examples. Actually, a Russian version of Teddy Roosevelt would be cool, smashing corruption and trying to clean things up.
...
I think I'm accidentially pushing American values on you Sergarr. Sorry.
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 12:31:27 pm
Funny about that. Peter the Great was seen as a brutal dictator by the people of his time, for his (successful) de-Russification and Europeanization of nobility (iconicly depicted as him shaving away boyar's (ancient Russian noble title) beards) and for making Orthodox Church into a government institution and reforming its key doctrine. There was a major civil unrest, hordes of people were fleeing away into deep forest due to not wanting to submit to the "reformed faith", the Europeanization of nobility was so great that for the next two centuries, the nobles oftenly were unable to speak Russian at all, but spoke fluent French, etc.
Maybe a better example would be Peter the Great rather than the American examples. Actually, a Russian version of Teddy Roosevelt would be cool, smashing corruption and trying to clean things up.
...
I think I'm accidentially pushing American values on you Sergarr. Sorry.
He also modernized Russian military, industry and reformed Russian management system, which allowed him to train an army and construct a fleet capable of rivalling - and defeating - that of the European (well, in so much as Sweden can be called Europe) country.
He's a pretty controversial figure.
Post by: Bohandas on December 21, 2015, 12:37:02 pm
The greater paradox is probably that of historical analysis. How long after a person's death is it fair to keep weighing the echos of their life? As you yourself said, Stalin can also be attributed the catastrophic self-destruction of Russia later on. And time keeps on slipping. Technically the ripples of any person's actions will continue out into the rest of humanity and the universe for as long as either continue to exist, but how long do they remain significant, especially for someone who distorted everything and everyone he encountered to circle him like some kind of social black hole?
Probably once the generation that knew him dies out. Or maybe once the generation that remembers the Communist era dies out.
Basically, probably not for a very long time.
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2000/fc01950.htm
Post by: Mr. Strange on December 21, 2015, 04:09:50 pm
He was one of the worst people in history, but he was one of the better rulers of RussiaRussian history 101.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on December 21, 2015, 05:41:29 pm
-Guy who caused death of millions putting a dent in Russian demographics for decades
-Guy who almost lost the war he should have won in few months (good job eliminating talented generals and putting asslickers in charge.)
-Guy who ruined lives and careers of talented engineers and scientists that got good education in Russian empire or during 1920s when education wasn't fully reformed. At least he managed to squeeze something from them.
-Guy who killed farming by destroying potential farmers
-Guys who made corruption a norm in a whole law enforcements chain. Same goes for potential small business.
PS. The whole idea "Russia was destroyed by a civil war" is a nonsense. Railroads and other construction infrastructure was mostly intact. Mines and oil rigs were there. Forests and fertile lands never disappeared. 30-50% of lost GDP is not destroyed.
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 06:32:45 pm
Hmmm.... Stalin... let me think...Aside from two world wars killing a significant percentage of population, I see no dents here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union)
-Guy who caused death of millions putting a dent in Russian demographics for decades
-Guy who almost lost the war he should have won in few months (good job eliminating talented generals and putting asslickers in charge.)These "talented" generals could not take over Poland. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War) The very idea of these losers defeating Nazi Germany within a "few months"... You must be joking, right? Right?
PS. The whole idea "Russia was destroyed by a civil war" is a nonsense. Railroads and other construction infrastructure was mostly intact. Mines and oil rigs were there. Forests and fertile lands never disappeared. 30-50% of lost GDP is not destroyed.That's why I've said "half-destroyed". 50% of lost GDP is indeed "half-destroyed", thank you for proving my point for me!
P.S. I really hope that you were joking about the "talented" generals (who were, again, unable to take over fucking Poland) defeating Nazi Germany within a few months, because this is some conspiracy level shit.
Post by: smjjames on December 21, 2015, 07:02:13 pm
We'd have to refer to a military historian for in depth analysis of whether Stalin was (rightly or not) to blame since I can't tell for sure from wikipedia only.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on December 21, 2015, 07:04:34 pm
Quote
50% of lost GDP is indeed "half-destroyed", thank you for proving my point for me!No. 50 of lost GDP means 50% less produced stuff in year B than in year A
Half destroyed is - half of buildings turned into a rubble. Same for roads, bridges, ports and all other infrastructure. Do you want to say that 1914-1924 decade caused anything like this?
Post by: Sergarr on December 21, 2015, 07:08:05 pm
Let's just say that you have a different definition of "half-destroyed" from what I have.Quote50% of lost GDP is indeed "half-destroyed", thank you for proving my point for me!No. 50 of lost GDP means 50% less produced stuff in year B than in year A
Half destroyed is - half of buildings turned into a rubble. Same for roads, bridges, ports and all other infrastructure. Do you want to say that 1914-1924 decade caused anything like this?
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on December 21, 2015, 07:11:54 pm
Quote
Aside from two world wars killing a significant percentage of population, I see no dents here.Even if exclude genocides of non-Russians and pretend that there were no millions repressed (you know, males that spend 25 years in prison are bad in creating families) - Stalin's incompetence (or rather ineffectiveness of the state) caused most of the loses in WW2.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 21, 2015, 07:42:32 pm
Let's just say that you have a different definition of "half-destroyed" from what I have.Quote50% of lost GDP is indeed "half-destroyed", thank you for proving my point for me!No. 50 of lost GDP means 50% less produced stuff in year B than in year A
Half destroyed is - half of buildings turned into a rubble. Same for roads, bridges, ports and all other infrastructure. Do you want to say that 1914-1924 decade caused anything like this?
No, the two of your were definitely saying different things.
Russia...half-destroyedThat's sorta vague, but I'd parse it the way UR did, in the sense of roughly half of Russia's infrastructure/industry/financial sector/&c. being in ruins.
50% of lost GDP is 50% of the completed goods and services in Russia during whatever time period you're delineating being lost. Very different--if the infrastructure, industry, and institutions are still intact and you're only losing production, that's a short-term economic downturn (albeit a very harsh one). Losing half of everything used to produce, transport, and manage food, war material, consumer goods, &c. is much more dire, because it means that you've lost capacity, which requires the reconstruction of vast amounts of infrastructure just to reach old levels of productivity.
As an analogy, take an RTS game. It's the difference between losing half of your base buildings versus losing half of your current units.
I'm not going to put my foot in the rest of that argument, though.
Post by: Just Some Guy on December 21, 2015, 08:22:37 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on December 21, 2015, 08:28:59 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 21, 2015, 08:34:43 pm
Norway is two countries away from Finland.
Everyone accepts Norway is part of Europe.
Everyone accepts Finland is part of Europe.
North Korea is two countries away from Finland.
Ergo, North Korea is part of Europe. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Post by: Descan on December 21, 2015, 09:45:28 pm
it's one country away
also no, he's saying as long as you're two countries away from FINLAND you're in europe
SORRY SPAIN YOU'RE NOT EUROPE
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 21, 2015, 09:48:41 pm
norway touches finlandno
finnmark is not a real place and does not count
Post by: Helgoland on December 21, 2015, 09:52:34 pm
norway touches finlandshow us on the dong picture where it touched you, finland
don't be afraid
Post by: Flying Dice on December 22, 2015, 12:37:03 am
"Mister Soviet Union touched me on my Karelian Isthmus, accompanied by nearly 250,000 men!"norway touches finlandshow us on the dong picture where it touched you, finland
don't be afraid
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2015, 10:40:02 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 22, 2015, 11:01:46 am
Fucks sakes how does politics devolve into Hetalia yaoi so quicklyThere's like four parts of this sentence that are redundant.
Post by: Morrigi on December 22, 2015, 11:18:08 am
Post by: Helgoland on December 23, 2015, 01:36:52 am
Post by: martinuzz on December 23, 2015, 06:21:52 am
Amnesty claims to have proof that Russia is using unguided projectiles, and cluster bombs, in densely populated areas.
The report zooms in on six attacks between september and november, on the cities of Homs, Idlip and Aleppo.
The attacks killed about 16 IS fighters, and over 200 civilians. Apparently a mosque, and a hospital were destroyed.
For the report, Amnesty had weapons experts study video and photo images, spoke with eye witnesses, and inerviewed people who were injured in the attacks.
The Russian ministry of Defense said they were unably to reply to the accusations at this time. They said the ministry of foreign affairs would have to study the report first.
https://www.amnesty.nl/nieuwsportaal/rapport/civilian-objects-were-not-damaged-russias-statements-its-attacks-in-syria-unma
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 23, 2015, 07:35:58 am
Post by: Sergarr on December 23, 2015, 08:00:14 am
The report zooms in on six attacks between september and november, on the cities of Homs, Idlip and Aleppo.Wait, aren't those cities the very same cities that have been claimed by Western media to have no IS forces in them? I'm pretty sure that there ain't any IS in Homs, Idlib and Aleppo, at least not in any meaningful numbers.
The attacks killed about 16 IS fighters, and over 200 civilians.
Post by: MonkeyHead on December 23, 2015, 11:58:06 am
The report zooms in on six attacks between september and november, on the cities of Homs, Idlip and Aleppo.Wait, aren't those cities the very same cities that have been claimed by Western media to have no IS forces in them? I'm pretty sure that there ain't any IS in Homs, Idlib and Aleppo, at least not in any meaningful numbers.
The attacks killed about 16 IS fighters, and over 200 civilians.
Pretty sure I have not seen a single claim from any of the media sources I access that has made such a claim, sorry. I would also suggest that 16 fighters in 3 cities killed in attacks of large enough magnitude to kill 200 civilians constitutes a not very meaningful number of fighters.
Post by: Sergarr on December 23, 2015, 12:56:17 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 23, 2015, 08:12:46 pm
Don't know about Homs and Idlib, but for Aleppo yes. Well, kind of, certain Western media started blaming Russia for appearance of ISIS in Aleppo (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/10/russian-airstrikes-help-isis-gain-ground-in-aleppo)The report zooms in on six attacks between september and november, on the cities of Homs, Idlip and Aleppo.Wait, aren't those cities the very same cities that have been claimed by Western media to have no IS forces in them? I'm pretty sure that there ain't any IS in Homs, Idlib and Aleppo, at least not in any meaningful numbers.
The attacks killed about 16 IS fighters, and over 200 civilians.
Pretty sure I have not seen a single claim from any of the media sources I access that has made such a claim, sorry. I would also suggest that 16 fighters in 3 cities killed in attacks of large enough magnitude to kill 200 civilians constitutes a not very meaningful number of fighters.I dunno, for Russia it is very good number, just look at the Moscow theatre crisis. 50 terrorists, 800 hostages... No spetznaz died, but 180 casualties - mission accomplish
Post by: Shadowlord on December 23, 2015, 08:18:52 pm
Is this a problem for them in any way?
Post by: Strife26 on December 23, 2015, 08:20:43 pm
Does Russia even care what amnesty international thinks?
Is this a problem for them in any way?
Does anyone?
Post by: Shadowlord on December 23, 2015, 08:30:52 pm
News from Brazil:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/12/23/brazil-declares-emergency-after-2400-babies-are-born-with-brain-damage-possibly-due-to-mosquito-borne-virus/
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 23, 2015, 08:31:36 pm
Does anyone?Have to admit that got laffs from me, but the lower level amnesty people do some honest moral work at risk to their own lives... Even if the management is many things bad
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2015, 09:47:39 am
http://qz.com/574352/putin-signs-a-law-that-allows-russia-to-ignore-international-court-rulings-that-it-doesnt-like/?utm_source=ff
Doesn't the US tend to do this sometimes? Though pretty sure we don't have a law saying that we can ignore it, which btw, having such a law is also against the law in the Vienna Convention.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2015, 10:03:54 am
Post by: Strife26 on December 24, 2015, 10:23:15 am
Compared to the body of International Law, Amnesty International is neatly equal in authority to the Second Law of Motion.
Post by: Sergarr on December 24, 2015, 10:41:51 am
Doesn't the US tend to do this sometimes? Though pretty sure we don't have a law saying that we can ignore it, which btw, having such a law is also against the law in the Vienna Convention.Well, there's a US law that says that USA has the right to use military force to free its own soldiers from international criminal court (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court#American_Service_Members_Protection_Act), which is as good as saying that it has a law saying that US can ignore any verdict of the said court in relation to its army. So that's one. There's also this gem:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice#ICJ_and_the_Security_Council
For example, the United States had previously accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction upon its creation in 1946 but in 1984, after Nicaragua v. United States, withdrew its acceptance following the court's judgment that called on the US to "cease and to refrain" from the "unlawful use of force" against the government of Nicaragua. The court ruled (with only the American judge dissenting) that the United States was "in breach of its obligation under the Treaty of Friendship with Nicaragua not to use force against Nicaragua" and ordered the United States to pay war reparations (see note 2).So basically US, at least if I understand how it's "common law" system works, has a precedent for ignoring the decisions of international courts if they don't like them, effectively meaning that they do have a law saying that they can flat-out ignore international law.
Post by: Strife26 on December 24, 2015, 11:22:26 am
Post by: Neonivek on December 24, 2015, 11:28:03 am
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement between friends
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2015, 12:13:58 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement betweenfriendsenemies
Post by: Strife26 on December 24, 2015, 12:18:20 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement between frenemies
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 24, 2015, 02:56:58 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement between frenemies with nukes
Post by: Baffler on December 24, 2015, 03:41:35 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement between suburban homeowners' associations with nukes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 24, 2015, 03:45:52 pm
Post by: Sheb on December 24, 2015, 05:57:02 pm
Post by: miauw62 on December 24, 2015, 06:18:07 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like an agreement between frenemies with benefits
Post by: sluissa on December 25, 2015, 07:42:54 pm
The difference between National law and International law is as such
National law is like a binding contract
International law is like 6 year olds playing imaginary battles in the grass and yelling "I hit you! Fall over!" "Nuh uh, you didn't! *runs away*"
Post by: Ultimuh on December 25, 2015, 07:52:50 pm
Shame on all of you.
Post by: Helgoland on December 25, 2015, 07:58:00 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2015, 04:03:23 pm
Please limit further discussions of the ontological separation "Europe" to topical analysis of North Korea's negotiation process to meet the community acquis.
YOU DARE DISCUSS YEAR OLD NORK NEWS WITHOUT ME!?Not entirely true. You do have NK scientists etc going abroad for conferences, and business travellers going to NK. Until recently, almost all French cartoons were partially made in NK.
I'm surprised there are NK scientists at all tbh :o
BTW and for the record: resistances are also a problem with viruses. To cite a few examples, there are strains of HSV and CMV resistant to acyclovir.
Also: HIV patients have to take a cocktail of drugs to prevent the rise of HIV strains resistant to antirretrovirals. This is why I am concerned about people afflicted with HIV that take their medication in an irregular manner: it's not just that they're harming themselves; they're also more infectious, and are likely carrying particularily nasty strains of HIV.The technological ease in which information spreads (in part due to China's fuckhueg phone and black market phone manufacturing industries being right next door to North Korea) is forcing Kim to adapt and allow more information to North Korea, more in line with ChinaLIKE A PHOENIX WHO ALWAYS KNOWS, I ARRIVE AS DECLARED IN THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET JOHN LENIN
So before their scientists could make two potato and can now make three potato
Inb4 North Korea thread invadesQuoteAnd not finishing courses / doctors giving out unnecessary medication / livestock medicationThe livestock thing is pretty well slanted towards bacterial diseases, I think. And that's all my seriousness for the day used up.QuoteLook at the bright side of life, at least when it inevitably jumps to France after David "Absolutely Haram" Cameron opens the borders completely about 90% of Cheeki Breeki will be removed world wide. Also, 6/7ths of humanity.Reverse smallpox revenge. RIP in peace.So this is how it ends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_Days_Later)
But eyes on the prize here.I'm detecting high levels of North Korea in this thread. New North Korea thread?NONE WILL USURP DPRK THREAD TITULAR TITLE, 100% OF DUCHIES OWNED, ABSOLUTE CROWN AUTHORITY, ULTIMOGENITURE MASTER RACE
SITHRACK'S GONNA HAVE TO GET IN FUCKING LINE NOW!
METALSLIMEHUNT HAS JOINED THE COALITION AGAINST YOU
-THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE IRRESISTIBLE COMRADERY OF THE BAY 12 LEGION OF THE PEOPLE'S LIBERATION- (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZiVWXjsaJg)
Post by: martinuzz on December 28, 2015, 08:44:02 am
Henceforth, descisions can only be made by the Constitutional Court with a 2/3ds majority, instead of what used to be standard 50%+ majority.
Also, 13 out of 15 judges will henceforth need to be present to make valid descisions, instead of what used to be nine.
Combine this with the fact that two weeks ago, 5 judges that served during the previous government have been fired, and replaced with 5 judges who are loyal to the new government's party, and you can see this will cripple the proper functioning of the controlling task that the constitutional court should have in accordance with the Trias Politica. The five new judges will almost always be able to block any controversial descision that the court wants to make. Either by vote, or by abscence.
To top things off, a new term has been added to the law, for passing a verdict. Henceforth, there need to be minimally three months in between a filed request, and a verdict in the matter. This prohibits the Court's judges from acting quickly if needed.
On the bright side, a lot of Polish people are outraged at this course of events, and it is not expected that this sway from the path of the constitutional state will last very long.
Post by: scriver on December 28, 2015, 09:56:47 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 28, 2015, 10:21:33 am
Post by: Bouchart on January 01, 2016, 06:33:26 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 01, 2016, 07:39:14 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 01, 2016, 10:58:27 pm
Post by: Culise on January 01, 2016, 11:28:53 pm
To be fair, Hitler's Germany did work really well at first. Then it fell prey to the same issues as everything run by somebody who figures the solution to all problems is for them to be in charge of everything forever.And by "at first," we mean, "as long as we had someone next door to loot to pay the bills."
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 01, 2016, 11:55:14 pm
Post by: miauw62 on January 02, 2016, 04:08:33 pm
Post by: DreamerGhost on January 02, 2016, 10:50:32 pm
Except erdogan wants to become the hitler
His desire to torture the entire jewish race to death and world conquest aside, Hitler was an ok guy. Could do some pretty nice paintings.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 02, 2016, 10:54:11 pm
Vegeterian and anti-smoking advocate, really a visionary as far as public health was concerned. Avoid shower joke avoid shower joke avoid shower jokeExcept erdogan wants to become the hitler
His desire to torture the entire jewish race to death and world conquest aside, Hitler was an ok guy. Could do some pretty nice paintings.
Post by: martinuzz on January 03, 2016, 07:32:53 am
the German Eurocommisioner Günther Oettinger is going to propose a resolution in next week's meeting of the European Commission.
He wants Poland to be placed under restrictive supervision, until they scrap their new media law, which puts all public media under direct control of the president's party.
This would imply that as long as the supervision is in place, Poland will lose it's right to vote on any European law or resolution.
Over the past week, Poland has gotten a lot of dissaprovement from various countries' foreign ministers, and Eurocommisioners. The proposal of this resolution is one step further, but with current sentiment, it does have a chance of being passed.
The governing Polish party passed this new law to "restore catcholic values, which they (the media) themselves have helped into oblivion under the previous government"
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2016, 12:17:38 pm
U N B A R R A G E A B LE
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 03, 2016, 12:22:23 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2016, 12:28:40 pm
Post by: Sergarr on January 03, 2016, 12:40:31 pm
he has become the shitpost king no one can stop him now run for your lives while you can fools
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 03, 2016, 12:59:20 pm
Vegeterian and anti-smoking advocate, really a visionary as far as public health was concerned. Avoid shower joke avoid shower joke avoid shower jokeExcept erdogan wants to become the hitler
His desire to torture the entire jewish race to death and world conquest aside, Hitler was an ok guy. Could do some pretty nice paintings.
It's really too bad he had to ruin a great mustache.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2016, 01:37:43 pm
Over the past week, Poland has gotten a lot of dissaprovement from various countries' foreign ministers, and Eurocommisioners.Yeah, Germans and Swedes who would've guessed. Meanwhile the EU's plan to create a border agency which can disregard national sovereignty becuz EU says so that answers to the unelected Commission because the Commission says so has led various countries' prime ministers to tell the EU to suck on a stick of cauliflower. It's a beautiful day to be demolishing the dreams of bureaucrats, unless you're being assassinated
The proposal of this resolution is one step further, but with current sentiment, it does have a chance of being passed.I AM TRIGGERED
The governing Polish party passed this new law to "restore catcholic values, which they (the media) themselves have helped into oblivion under the previous government"
lw seems to have absorbed the shitpostiness power of slowpoke and added it to his own for maximum shitpostingIT'S THE CURRENT YEAR
he has become the shitpost king no one can stop him now run for your lives while you can fools
Posted this in the wrong thread. Right place here, now.How do you lose a right you never had? Shitposting bants all on one side, I'll be dead serious.
the German Eurocommisioner Günther Oettinger is going to propose a resolution in next week's meeting of the European Commission.
He wants Poland to be placed under restrictive supervision, until they scrap their new media law, which puts all public media under direct control of the president's party.
This would imply that as long as the supervision is in place, Poland will lose it's right to vote on any European law or resolution.
The European Union has consistently been taking away the people's countries from themselves. When they wanted the European Constitution they let the French and Dutch public decide if the French or Dutch wanted the EU to govern them or whether they wanted to govern themselves, the French and Dutch people decide no and that should've been the end of that. They try it again by repackaging the Constitution as the Lisbon Treaty, giving themselves the same powers over the Nation State and don't give the people referendums on whether or not they want to give away their national sovereignty. Only the ROI which was the most constitutionally distinct nation was allowed a referendum, when their people voted no the EU forced them to take a second referendum until they voted yes. It was supposed to be that any time a nation gave away their own self-determination to the EU there would be a referendum on it, but this has been disregarded again and again. Parliaments have no teeth without control of their own currency, no supremacy of law, no control of their budgets, their media, their borders, no seats on the WTO, with the EU deciding it can disregard nations whenever it feels like it as it is above their law. Our Europhiles claimed the EU had no interest in creating a common military which is bollocks and the EU is now trying to get France and Britain to hand over their permanent seats on the Security Council to them.
How do you lose a right you never had?
Their is no greater loss for Poland to lose, than to lose Poland.
Quote
Today the European Commission adopted a new framework for addressing systemic threats to the rule of law in any of the EU's 28 Member States. The initiative comes after the College of Commissioners held two orientation debates on the rule of law on 28 August 2013 and on 25 February 2014, which concluded that there is a need to develop a tool to deal, at EU level, with systemic threats to the rule of law. The new rule of law framework will be complementary to infringement procedures - when EU law has been breached – and to the so-called 'Article 7 procedure' of the Lisbon Treaty which, at its most severe, allows for the suspension of voting rights in case of a "serious and persistent breach" of EU values by a Member State.The EU gave itself powers to crush what member states want for themselves based off of a treaty they had no say in signing in order to enforce "European Union values" they do not endorse because they are "systemic threats" to the rule of laws they did not make that have supremacy over their own nationhood only because the Eurocrats say they have some right to it. I've only got one thing to say to that, good job Poland and C A U L I F L O W E R
If this sounds fucking horrendous it's from the EU themselves (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-237_en.htm)
Post by: Sheb on January 03, 2016, 03:56:52 pm
Also, LW, do you have stuff on " Commission because the Commission says so has led various countries' prime ministers to tell the EU to suck on a stick of cauliflower."? Last I heard of it, it went through some preliminary Council hearing wihtout causing too much of a fuss.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2016, 04:33:07 pm
I love how in LW's world, the European Council is not a thing.In the ancient Spartan government the council of elders would propose state policy to the citizens of Sparta eligible to vote. Although the Spartans could vote, they could only ever vote for policies put forth by the council of elders, who could also simply keep proposing a policy until it passed. The citizenry held only enough power to delay policy change.
The European Council, the collection of all of the Prime Ministers and Presidents of the European states that make up the European Union have even less power, not even able to vote on the policies put forth by the European Commission. At most, the heads of states can provide a guide for the Commission and pray the Commission will listen to them. They are reduced to nothing more than managers. Unless they make like a Pole and tell the EU to suck on some cauliflower.
Not that I disagree that the EU Constitution thing was a farce (and whatever changes the Irish did get - such as a guarantee of one Commissioner per state - sucks), but those things were done with the agreement of the Council, aka the various state governments.Any handover of popular sovereignty was to be done by referendum, not by the heads of states. Flaunting this was done for the express reason that in all likelihood the Lisbon treaty would have failed just as the EU Constitution did if the people were allowed to decide for themselves. Obviously only affluent elite male academics matter though, so no one is allowed to decide for themselves. Hurray for EU democracy?
Also, LW, do you have stuff on " Commission because the Commission says so has led various countries' prime ministers to tell the EU to suck on a stick of cauliflower."? Last I heard of it, it went through some preliminary Council hearing wihtout causing too much of a fuss.Frontex is based in Poland
Poland just told Frontex to suck on a stick of cauliflower
Poland is based
In all seriousness though the only EU countries this does not affect are France, Britain, Germany and Ireland. Ireland and Britain both retain control of their borders and have told the EU to fuck off and suck on a stick of cauliflower whilst France and Germany are surrounded by Schengen countries and so have lost nothing whilst taking from the Balkan, Southern and Eastern countries. Unsurprisingly the Balkan, Southern and Eastern countries are outraged that the Germans believe they can simply give themselves their borders, least of all after Germany brought this disaster to Europe and hypocritically instates border controls on its own nation whilst fucking over the Balkans. Principle critics are Poland, Hungary and Amnesty International. Everyone has otherwise decided Greeks and Italians don't matter and will simply be Europe's refugee camp for German immigrants Germany doesn't want, and Turkey is just chuckling sensibly because they've won.
Post by: Sheb on January 03, 2016, 04:43:15 pm
It's hilarious to see you blaming Merkel for the refugees crisis. Do you also blame Cameron for the migrants slums in Calais?
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 03, 2016, 04:50:54 pm
Post by: Sheb on January 03, 2016, 04:57:04 pm
Post by: Helgoland on January 03, 2016, 05:07:11 pm
Post by: Sheb on January 03, 2016, 05:08:05 pm
Post by: Helgoland on January 03, 2016, 06:58:00 pm
Post by: scriver on January 03, 2016, 09:00:45 pm
And Sweden has stopped now AFAIK
Nope, the only thing Sweden has done is attempt to gain oversight over who enters the country and not allow people who are not intending to seek asylum in Sweden through. Everyone who wants to seek asylum in Sweden is still allowed through.
Post by: Sheb on January 04, 2016, 05:33:00 am
Post by: martinuzz on January 04, 2016, 06:40:00 am
Kristallnacht 2.0 when?
Post by: Ghazkull on January 04, 2016, 08:52:26 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 04, 2016, 09:22:51 am
Not enough Right Wing sentiment...RWDS SOON, FLEE INNWDS
Post by: MarcAFK on January 04, 2016, 09:41:16 am
Post by: Strife26 on January 04, 2016, 10:18:42 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 04, 2016, 10:21:19 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 04, 2016, 10:22:14 am
sheeeeeeeeit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html)
The refalkening will begin
Post by: nenjin on January 04, 2016, 12:28:45 pm
DPRK Thread isn't just another discussion, it's a phenomena! It's a new kind of thread for a new age of humanity!
DRPK has become the ALLTHREAD for politics, apparently.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 04, 2016, 01:07:29 pm
-5 has casus belli
-15 has claim
-20 allied to rival
-32 They desire your provinces (Falkland Islands, South Georgia Islands, South Sandwich Islands, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan de Cunha)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 04, 2016, 01:12:50 pm
Yeah, but it's also the biggest country in Europe. Sweden has been taking much more per capita, and for longer.In population. In raw square meters Germany comes third.
Post by: SaberToothTiger on January 04, 2016, 01:20:17 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 04, 2016, 01:22:26 pm
Granted, shoving people inside Greenland's square meters without heavy investment on infrastructure likely qualifies as a war crime.
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 01:51:13 pm
Second war, same as before!
Post by: Sheb on January 04, 2016, 01:58:03 pm
They're good if you intend to shove people inside.
Granted, shoving people inside Greenland's square meters without heavy investment on infrastructure likely qualifies as a war crime.
Given that most people are city-dwellers rather than sustenance farmers nowadays, not so much.
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 02:03:19 pm
Given that this is what passes for a Greenlandic metropolis...They're good if you intend to shove people inside.
Granted, shoving people inside Greenland's square meters without heavy investment on infrastructure likely qualifies as a war crime.
Given that most people are city-dwellers rather than sustenance farmers nowadays, not so much.
Spoiler: It looks like a town you might see on a model railroad kit... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bohandas on January 04, 2016, 02:08:13 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
Post by: Sergarr on January 04, 2016, 02:39:38 pm
Forging a claim is a fairly easy task, both in game and in reality.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 02:54:24 pm
Imperialist pig! Malvinas have always been Argentine! Why else would God have placed them right next to Argentina?? (And by right next to, I mean 300 miles away)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
As far as I can tell, their claim goes back to de facto Spanish control of the islands from 1774 to 1811, when the British withdrew but left behind a plaque and flag basically saying "Ha! we still have a core on these islands, suckers". When Spain lost Argentina to revolution in 1811, the Spanish did the same thing, leaving a plaque that said the islands were still Spanish.
In 1820, an Argentine naval vessel wrecked on the islands and the survivors set up a flag and plaque themselves and claimed the islands for Argentina, then promptly got picked up and left the island.
In the late 1820's, the Brits and Argentines both tried colonizing the islands and by 1831, one of the Argentine expeditions had actually survived long enough to call it a colony, which was promptly sacked by a British frigate and declared res nullius. The Argentines rebuilt the colony, there was a mutiny, and the British showed up with a warship and demanded the new colony governor change out the Argentine flag for a British one (at gunpoint).
Been British ever since.
So....it's a legit dispute, imho. I don't think you can argue that leaving a plaque and a flag constitutes de jure ownership, nor does gunboat diplomacy.
The thing is, it's one of the world's biggest dick-waving contests over a piece of land that nobody really fucking wants, unless there's a significant economic need for fish, squid and bird poop.
Post by: Helgoland on January 04, 2016, 02:58:37 pm
I don't think you can argue that leaving a plaque and a flag constitutes de jure ownershipActually it did use to work that way. That's why Germany used to have a very, very solid claim on most of Antarctica: Some Nazi exploration plane had dropped some flags there, and by the standards of the time that was sufficient for claiming ownership. Of course that claim was waved without too great a fuss soon after the war...
Post by: martinuzz on January 04, 2016, 02:59:37 pm
The Cologne chief of police, Wolfgang Albers, says there was a group of about thousand Arab and North-African men roaming the center of Cologne, harassing and robbing people during the festivities. He calls it "an entire new dimension to crime", and "unacceptable that such crimes can occur in our city"
Holy shit, a 1000 man strong bandit gang. I mean, Cologne is not a small city, but that's still some crazy numbers. I wonder if it's real, or if those women filing charges and the chief of police are members of the extreme right trying to create hatred against immigrants.
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 03:28:49 pm
Breitbart links to a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzjoNT7-ToE) of a large group of people standing around a plaza while fireworks are shot off. That's pretty much all that happens. Comment section seems to be filled with German right-wingers, though my German is a bit weak to parse all of it.
Post by: Bohandas on January 04, 2016, 04:33:58 pm
I wonder if it's real, or if those women filing charges and the chief of police are members of the extreme right trying to create hatred against immigrants.
Possible third option: they could be using the kind of definition of sexual assault that's common on university campuses these days, where even something as harmless as commenting on a person's appearance qualifies as rape.
Post by: martinuzz on January 04, 2016, 04:41:11 pm
So far, the only new outlets to report that are Breitbart and noted Islamophobe Pamela Geller. ABCNews reports the allegation, but reports it only as an allegation.I got it from our mainstream left-ish dutch newspaper de Volkskrant.
Breitbart links to a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzjoNT7-ToE) of a large group of people standing around a plaza while fireworks are shot off. That's pretty much all that happens. Comment section seems to be filled with German right-wingers, though my German is a bit weak to parse all of it.
Post by: Tomcost on January 04, 2016, 05:01:19 pm
The thing is, it's one of the world's biggest dick-waving contests over a piece of land that nobody really fucking wants, unless there's a significant economic need for fish, squid and bird poop.
Argentinian here.
Don't pay attention to the claim. It is just politically correct to have a claim over them, because of some nationalistic bullshit against colonialism, the British pirates, and capitalism that the previous government left in the country. And this new government won't press the issue much more, it actually wants to make some friend with the world (and pretend that Argentina's affair with Venezuela never happened).
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 04, 2016, 05:16:13 pm
Imperialist pig! Malvinas have always been Argentine! Why else would God have placed them right next to Argentina?? (And by right next to, I mean 300 miles away)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
As far as I can tell, their claim goes back to de facto Spanish control of the islands from 1774 to 1811, when the British withdrew but left behind a plaque and flag basically saying "Ha! we still have a core on these islands, suckers". When Spain lost Argentina to revolution in 1811, the Spanish did the same thing, leaving a plaque that said the islands were still Spanish.
In 1820, an Argentine naval vessel wrecked on the islands and the survivors set up a flag and plaque themselves and claimed the islands for Argentina, then promptly got picked up and left the island.
In the late 1820's, the Brits and Argentines both tried colonizing the islands and by 1831, one of the Argentine expeditions had actually survived long enough to call it a colony, which was promptly sacked by a British frigate and declared res nullius. The Argentines rebuilt the colony, there was a mutiny, and the British showed up with a warship and demanded the new colony governor change out the Argentine flag for a British one (at gunpoint).
Been British ever since.
So....it's a legit dispute, imho. I don't think you can argue that leaving a plaque and a flag constitutes de jure ownership, nor does gunboat diplomacy.
The thing is, it's one of the world's biggest dick-waving contests over a piece of land that nobody really fucking wants, unless there's a significant economic need for fish, squid and bird poop.
Even in CK2, 170 years of occupation will make a territory de jure
Post by: Morrigi on January 04, 2016, 05:46:20 pm
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 05:47:18 pm
wtf Germany http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/04/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-sex-assaults.html?_r=1o hai six posts ago
Post by: Morrigi on January 04, 2016, 06:12:59 pm
Oops. Still, wtf Germany. Also, apparently the story is being actively censored on Reddit. No surprises there.wtf Germany http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/04/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-sex-assaults.html?_r=1o hai six posts ago
Post by: Bohandas on January 04, 2016, 07:30:43 pm
Imperialist pig! Malvinas have always been Argentine! Why else would God have placed them right next to Argentina?? (And by right next to, I mean 300 miles away)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
As far as I can tell, their claim goes back to de facto Spanish control of the islands from 1774 to 1811, when the British withdrew but left behind a plaque and flag basically saying "Ha! we still have a core on these islands, suckers". When Spain lost Argentina to revolution in 1811, the Spanish did the same thing, leaving a plaque that said the islands were still Spanish.
In 1820, an Argentine naval vessel wrecked on the islands and the survivors set up a flag and plaque themselves and claimed the islands for Argentina, then promptly got picked up and left the island.
In the late 1820's, the Brits and Argentines both tried colonizing the islands and by 1831, one of the Argentine expeditions had actually survived long enough to call it a colony, which was promptly sacked by a British frigate and declared res nullius. The Argentines rebuilt the colony, there was a mutiny, and the British showed up with a warship and demanded the new colony governor change out the Argentine flag for a British one (at gunpoint).
Been British ever since.
So then they have a claim, but it's ridiculously outdated and obsolete.
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 07:36:49 pm
Aren't most territorial claims in dispute? (*cough* Israel *cough*)Imperialist pig! Malvinas have always been Argentine! Why else would God have placed them right next to Argentina?? (And by right next to, I mean 300 miles away)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/12079614/Argentinas-new-government-says-it-will-press-claims-to-Falkland-Islands.html
The refalkening will begin
Don't they need to have a claim to the Falkland Islands before they can press it?
As far as I can tell, their claim goes back to de facto Spanish control of the islands from 1774 to 1811, when the British withdrew but left behind a plaque and flag basically saying "Ha! we still have a core on these islands, suckers". When Spain lost Argentina to revolution in 1811, the Spanish did the same thing, leaving a plaque that said the islands were still Spanish.
In 1820, an Argentine naval vessel wrecked on the islands and the survivors set up a flag and plaque themselves and claimed the islands for Argentina, then promptly got picked up and left the island.
In the late 1820's, the Brits and Argentines both tried colonizing the islands and by 1831, one of the Argentine expeditions had actually survived long enough to call it a colony, which was promptly sacked by a British frigate and declared res nullius. The Argentines rebuilt the colony, there was a mutiny, and the British showed up with a warship and demanded the new colony governor change out the Argentine flag for a British one (at gunpoint).
Been British ever since.
So then they have a claim, but it's ridiculously outdated and obsolete.
Post by: mainiac on January 04, 2016, 07:50:24 pm
Post by: RedKing on January 04, 2016, 07:53:49 pm
Depends on how you define in dispute and most and claims and territory.And define. And on. And how.
Post by: Bouchart on January 04, 2016, 08:02:38 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 04, 2016, 08:21:14 pm
Just saber-rattling to distract from all of Argentina's internal problems. Runaway inflation, debt and currency controls prop up there every decade or so.Well, a nice little war to build up nationalistic sentiment was a rather large motivator for the Argentines first go, far as I know.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2016, 08:28:51 pm
And and.Depends on how you define in dispute and most and claims and territory.And define. And on. And how.
Post by: nenjin on January 04, 2016, 08:30:59 pm
Post by: Helgoland on January 04, 2016, 08:38:10 pm
That article says that just one rape charge has been filed, and merely around sixty 'criminal complaints'.Oops. Still, wtf Germany. Also, apparently the story is being actively censored on Reddit. No surprises there.wtf Germany http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/04/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-sex-assaults.html?_r=1o hai six posts ago
Additionally I'd like to remark that I live very close to Cologne - hell, I passed through that train station yesterday and will do so again in two days - and I've only heard one radio report mention it.
TL;DR: It's a bad thing, but not that big a deal.
Post by: Tomcost on January 04, 2016, 08:39:01 pm
Just saber-rattling to distract from all of Argentina's internal problems. Runaway inflation, debt and currency controls prop up there every decade or so.Well, a nice little war to build up nationalistic sentiment was a rather large motivator for the Argentines first go, far as I know.
It was more like a war to distract the population from the incoming economic crisis after the de facto goverment screwed things up.
Post by: Reelya on January 04, 2016, 08:44:40 pm
Recently, inflation tripled in Venezuela and the media blame that on the Venezuelan socialist government (even though it was at the lowest inflation in decades for the first 14 years the socialists were in power). But Argentina went sky-high at the same time as Venezuela, and it's really hard to blame that on Chavez. Double checked for Colombia and Brazil, they also saw a tripling of inflation over the same time period.
It's pretty much the whole continent which saw a tripling of inflation at exactly the same time. Clearly, the US media is bullshitting that the sudden rise in inflation in Venezuela is the socialists' fault, because that doesn't explain why completely unrelated countries had the same thing happen at the same time.
Venezuela's inflation was lower under the first 14 years of socialism than the entire decade before socialism, for the record, so "Chavez = high inflation" is blatant misinformation, just going off public records.
Post by: Tomcost on January 04, 2016, 08:49:01 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 05, 2016, 03:26:55 am
I can say, at least, that inflation in Argentina is spiking because of a devaluation of 40% in a single day. And it is a consequence of not adjusting the exchange rate to go with the inflation that happened in the former years (instead, for political reasons, they kept is more or less fixed). This changed with the recent change in the goverment, and thus the sudden devaluation, and the additional inflation.
Visited Argentina back in mid-2013. What's going on right now is a painful, but necessary, market correction. When I was there, anyone who could afford to do so kept their savings in dollars- the official exchange rate was about 5 pesos to the dollar, but the street exchange rate was 10 pesos to the dollar, and the Kirchner administration never took any steps to keep Argentines away from dollars- we withdrew dollars at ATMs, and every store we went to would take them, at the market rate. Often at a ridiculous margin, too- one evening my uncle, mother and I went to a lovely little restaurant near the Iguazu Falls that was recommended by our charmingly skeevy taxi driver. My uncle and I both got the best steaks I've ever eaten, my mother got an excellent pasta dish, and we split a really good bottle of wine. Final price? $54 for three people, for a meal that would have been well into triple figures in the States.
Yeah, it sucks that the peso is in free-fall, but when you spend a decade cooking the books to pretend the dollar is half as expensive as it actually is, don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you.
Post by: Tomcost on January 05, 2016, 06:53:05 am
I can say, at least, that inflation in Argentina is spiking because of a devaluation of 40% in a single day. And it is a consequence of not adjusting the exchange rate to go with the inflation that happened in the former years (instead, for political reasons, they kept is more or less fixed). This changed with the recent change in the goverment, and thus the sudden devaluation, and the additional inflation.
Visited Argentina back in mid-2013. What's going on right now is a painful, but necessary, market correction. When I was there, anyone who could afford to do so kept their savings in dollars- the official exchange rate was about 5 pesos to the dollar, but the street exchange rate was 10 pesos to the dollar, and the Kirchner administration never took any steps to keep Argentines away from dollars- we withdrew dollars at ATMs, and every store we went to would take them, at the market rate. Often at a ridiculous margin, too- one evening my uncle, mother and I went to a lovely little restaurant near the Iguazu Falls that was recommended by our charmingly skeevy taxi driver. My uncle and I both got the best steaks I've ever eaten, my mother got an excellent pasta dish, and we split a really good bottle of wine. Final price? $54 for three people, for a meal that would have been well into triple figures in the States.
Yeah, it sucks that the peso is in free-fall, but when you spend a decade cooking the books to pretend the dollar is half as expensive as it actually is, don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you.
Oh, to be clear I was not complaining, just trying to be objective. I am glad that things are getting fixed, even if the medicine is painful.
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 05, 2016, 10:54:26 am
Post by: Tomcost on January 05, 2016, 11:36:02 am
Wasn't Argentina the country that tried to fix their currency to a specific value a few decades back?
Yes. It was a fixed exchange rate of one peso for one dollar, with a law to guarantee it. The current crisis in Greece is sometimes compared to the one originated in Argentina over a decade ago because of that.
Post by: Morrigi on January 05, 2016, 03:54:38 pm
Cologne's police chief is calling it a "completely new dimension of crime". Is he wrong?That article says that just one rape charge has been filed, and merely around sixty 'criminal complaints'.Oops. Still, wtf Germany. Also, apparently the story is being actively censored on Reddit. No surprises there.wtf Germany http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/04/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-sex-assaults.html?_r=1o hai six posts ago
Additionally I'd like to remark that I live very close to Cologne - hell, I passed through that train station yesterday and will do so again in two days - and I've only heard one radio report mention it.
TL;DR: It's a bad thing, but not that big a deal.
Post by: WealthyRadish on January 05, 2016, 04:10:06 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on January 05, 2016, 05:37:50 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 05, 2016, 05:40:18 pm
Post by: Morrigi on January 05, 2016, 05:52:08 pm
Drunken new years hooligans are on the forefront of a criminal insurgency and threat to national security so immense, that when all is said and done, not one of us will be spared as the crimewave spreads like vomited peppermint schnapps and confetti on pavement.Confirmed for not reading the story. If it was just a few drunken hooligans, it wouldn't even make the news at all.
Post by: Helgoland on January 05, 2016, 06:24:47 pm
Also the criminals are known to the police, and so-called 'Intensivtäter' - 'intensive perpetrators'. This has been waaaaaay overblown by the media. Albers is right insofar as this is a new way of conducting street crime, and it is rather shocking that none of the partyers at the scene intervened - but it's hardly something that can't be tackled by a slight adjustment in policing.
Post by: Strife26 on January 05, 2016, 07:32:03 pm
Post by: Bouchart on January 05, 2016, 08:26:27 pm
Post by: Graknorke on January 05, 2016, 08:30:03 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 05, 2016, 09:25:24 pm
I don't know, this sort of shit happening continuously in Europe is making me wonder if this isn't a politically-induced blind spot. I'll be joining LW at his EDL meetings in no time.
Post by: penguinofhonor on January 05, 2016, 10:41:06 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 05, 2016, 10:45:13 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 05, 2016, 10:54:31 pm
It's so topical even talking about North Korea anywhere else on Bay 12 should be a crime. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmI2yDAyWYI)
Post by: redwallzyl on January 05, 2016, 10:59:18 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462098403/north-korea-says-it-conducted-hydrogen-bomb-test
also in unrelated news china is getting in on the giant golden statue building.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462016496/in-remote-field-in-china-theres-now-a-giant-golden-statue-of-mao
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 05, 2016, 11:00:59 pm
PD: wait it gets better:
Quote
The statue is painted gold and mysteriously has a spare giant Mao head placed next to it.
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2016/01/05/mao3_wide-28f06d3d6e8a65968457b3992d07a6f2de4ea1c5-s800-c85.jpg)
The odd thing is... that doesn't even really look like Mao. I mean, compare and contrast
(http://www.fideus.com/mao.gif)
Remove the hair on the sides of the head and you can say it's a statue of Varys
(https://i.imgur.com/R3ZxsH7.gif)
Post by: Bouchart on January 05, 2016, 11:31:16 pm
Post by: WealthyRadish on January 05, 2016, 11:50:03 pm
Edit: wrong thread
Is this even possible?
Post by: IronyOwl on January 06, 2016, 12:08:51 am
Don't think so. Not anymore.Edit: wrong thread
Is this even possible?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 06, 2016, 12:14:08 am
Transcendence is so sweet.Don't think so. Not anymore.Edit: wrong thread
Is this even possible?
Post by: MarcAFK on January 06, 2016, 01:03:44 am
Post by: SaberToothTiger on January 06, 2016, 01:46:37 am
Is it shit?
Post by: redwallzyl on January 06, 2016, 01:53:33 am
Oh right, I meant to ask. How's Episode VII? I still have to watch it and I worry that it might be arse. To be fair, I don't like the SW series whatsoever, so my expecations are low, but it's a new Star Wars movie.i thought it was good.
Is it shit?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 06, 2016, 01:57:07 am
Oh right, I meant to ask. How's Episode VII? I still have to watch it and I worry that it might be arse. To be fair, I don't like the SW series whatsoever, so my expecations are low, but it's a new Star Wars movie.The general feeling is that it is "rather nice".
Is it shit?
Post by: Morrigi on January 06, 2016, 03:01:49 am
I mean, Fuhrer Merkel is caught up in the outrage if it is just outrage.Yeah, that's a red flag. If even Merkel is outraged, then there just might be something to be outraged about.
Post by: scriver on January 06, 2016, 03:09:47 am
Also, I've never quite realised just how star trek Mao looked before.
Post by: Sheb on January 06, 2016, 05:02:21 am
massively blown out of proportion if we goes from 1000 criminals to 50-60 in a crowd.
I also wonder what's the "normal" rate of sexual harassment for such an event.
Post by: martinuzz on January 06, 2016, 05:21:38 am
I can't get enough of watching NK news announcers. This one is bringing the news about the hydrogen bomb.
Post by: Reelya on January 06, 2016, 05:30:44 am
they straight up admitted it.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462098403/north-korea-says-it-conducted-hydrogen-bomb-test
Why wouldn't they admit it? The whole point of having just a couple of nukes is to go "don't fuck with me man, I have a nuke!"
The idea that you'd secretly make a nuke then use it for some nefarious purposes is pure Hollywood B.S. Every state knows that the nuke would be traced back to them, then they'd be completely fucked. For example, Iran was provably making a nuke, but they cancelled the program in 2003. The reason was that the nuke was going to be a deterrent against Saddam invading them, and after the U.S. took out Saddam it was no longer needed.
Actually, the concept of a militarily hostile Iran in general is laughably "Hollywood". For example in a recent article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35222365) about the Iran/Saudi diplomatic standoff the BBC published figures on both country's military spending. Saudi Arabia spends $56 billion and Iran spends $6.3 billion, which is about 1.5% of GDP compared to Saudi Arabia's 10% of GDP. Despite what they'd like you to believe, the available facts don't support the idea that Iran is planning any sort of military incursions outside their borders: they're simply not investing in what they'd need for such a plan. Pentagon reports basically state that the entire Iranian defense spending is allocated to a series of echelon defenses to stop invaders. Since the spending is already low and it's all designed to make the place hard to invade, they have basically zero investment in what is called "force projection", unlike e.g. the USA where the bulk of the spending is about projecting force around the world.
Iran generally sends diplomats rather than armies to push their interests. That's not saying I'm a fan of Iran, but the idea that they are, or are aiming to be, some sort of military superpower is just laughable when you realize their defense spending is 1% of America's spending and is low even when looked at as a percentage.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 06, 2016, 05:36:18 am
they straight up admitted it.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462098403/north-korea-says-it-conducted-hydrogen-bomb-test
Why wouldn't they admit it? The whole point of having just a couple of nukes is to go "don't fuck with me man, I have a nuke!"
Our words are backed with nuclear weapons!
Post by: martinuzz on January 06, 2016, 05:40:03 am
Our words are backed with nuclear weapons!
Your head would look good at the end of a pole!
Post by: Sheb on January 06, 2016, 05:42:58 am
Post by: Morrigi on January 06, 2016, 06:28:54 am
This just gets better and better. Keep yourself at arm's length from strangers if you don't want to get groped, ladies. The mayor said so.
Quote
Mayor Reker also said a “better explanation” to asylum seekers was needed about the meaning of the annual carnivals.Yes, asylum seekers, hello. Carnivals are not for rape and fondling, thank you.
Post by: Strife26 on January 06, 2016, 08:42:23 am
they straight up admitted it.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462098403/north-korea-says-it-conducted-hydrogen-bomb-test
Why wouldn't they admit it? The whole point of having just a couple of nukes is to go "don't fuck with me man, I have a nuke!"
The idea that you'd secretly make a nuke then use it for some nefarious purposes is pure Hollywood B.S. Every state knows that the nuke would be traced back to them, then they'd be completely fucked. For example, Iran was provably making a nuke, but they cancelled the program in 2003. The reason was that the nuke was going to be a deterrent against Saddam invading them, and after the U.S. took out Saddam it was no longer needed.
Actually, the concept of a militarily hostile Iran in general is laughably "Hollywood". For example in a recent article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35222365) about the Iran/Saudi diplomatic standoff the BBC published figures on both country's military spending. Saudi Arabia spends $56 billion and Iran spends $6.3 billion, which is about 1.5% of GDP compared to Saudi Arabia's 10% of GDP. Despite what they'd like you to believe, the available facts don't support the idea that Iran is planning any sort of military incursions outside their borders: they're simply not investing in what they'd need for such a plan. Pentagon reports basically state that the entire Iranian defense spending is allocated to a series of echelon defenses to stop invaders. Since the spending is already low and it's all designed to make the place hard to invade, they have basically zero investment in what is called "force projection", unlike e.g. the USA where the bulk of the spending is about projecting force around the world.
Iran generally sends diplomats rather than armies to push their interests. That's not saying I'm a fan of Iran, but the idea that they are, or are aiming to be, some sort of military superpower is just laughable when you realize their defense spending is 1% of America's spending and is low even when looked at as a percentage.
They're certainly a local power, after Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. Looking at straight military spending as a portion of gdp ish pretty limited. Iran's been playing with running and equipping insurgents for near all of the Iraq War
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 06, 2016, 09:16:04 am
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mayor-of-cologne-says-women-should-have-code-of-conduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.htmlSounds like asylum blaming m8
This just gets better and better. Keep yourself at arm's length from strangers if you don't want to get groped, ladies. The mayor said so.QuoteMayor Reker also said a “better explanation” to asylum seekers was needed about the meaning of the annual carnivals.Yes, asylum seekers, hello. Carnivals are not for rape and fondling, thank you.
Post by: Sinistar on January 06, 2016, 12:10:17 pm
"... One woman however said the looked like regular pickpockets"
dirty immigrant supporter
Post by: RedKing on January 06, 2016, 12:26:48 pm
Post by: Graknorke on January 06, 2016, 01:03:51 pm
Post by: Muikku on January 06, 2016, 02:42:00 pm
So apparently they might be telling some porkies about it being a H-bomb (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35241686). Tut tut.It seems the North Koreans themselves don't really know what to think about this, since they are using the standard placeholder response.
'North Koreans reacting to the news: "Developing a hydrogen bomb is inevitable"'
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on January 06, 2016, 03:13:25 pm
Giant Golden Statue of Mao Sitting in the Toilet?the forehead is too short. i would guess the reason there's two heads is cuz they fucked up the first one
PD: wait it gets better:QuoteThe statue is painted gold and mysteriously has a spare giant Mao head placed next to it.
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2016/01/05/mao3_wide-28f06d3d6e8a65968457b3992d07a6f2de4ea1c5-s800-c85.jpg)
The odd thing is... that doesn't even really look like Mao. I mean, compare and contrast
(http://www.fideus.com/mao.gif)
Remove the hair on the sides of the head and you can say it's a statue of Varys
(https://i.imgur.com/R3ZxsH7.gif)
Post by: RedKing on January 06, 2016, 03:18:27 pm
North Koreans confirmed for dank meme. Do they also menace with spikes of glorious workers' paradise?So apparently they might be telling some porkies about it being a H-bomb (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35241686). Tut tut.'North Koreans reacting to the news: "Developing a hydrogen bomb is inevitable"'
Post by: MarcAFK on January 06, 2016, 08:49:49 pm
Maybe they just found a second hand small MIRV warhead or suitcase nuke and let it off?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 06, 2016, 08:57:19 pm
The us say it's not an H bomb, others say it was too small, NK says it's 'Minaturised', and somewhere I read a theory they daisy chained a bunch of smaller bombs together like the uk did in the 50's.What, they searched between the sofa cushions and found it, among the pennies and old gum? :P
Maybe they just found a second hand small MIRV warhead or suitcase nuke and let it off?
I'd be surprised if anyone could sell a nuclear weapon without it being tracked and uncovered.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 06, 2016, 09:33:12 pm
What, they searched between the sofa cushions and found it, among the pennies and old gum? :PThe Soviets and US misplaced quite a few nuclear weapons, some of which we still don't know about to this day. More pertinently Israel's nuclear weapons development shows how it could be tracked but not uncovered until the people holding the information felt some reason to disclose the information themselves.
I'd be surprised if anyone could sell a nuclear weapon without it being tracked and uncovered.
Post by: misko27 on January 07, 2016, 12:46:20 am
they straight up admitted it.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/05/462098403/north-korea-says-it-conducted-hydrogen-bomb-test
Why wouldn't they admit it? The whole point of having just a couple of nukes is to go "don't fuck with me man, I have a nuke!"
Quote from: Dr. Strangelove
Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?
Post by: Elephant Parade on January 07, 2016, 01:13:15 am
So, yeah. Any tips?
Post by: smjjames on January 07, 2016, 08:59:22 am
I can't beat Kim's Nidoking. I get it down to half health, but then Kim starts testing nuclear weapons, and by the time it's down to red he's figured it out—and launched some at me. My entire team dies of radiation sickness; I have to grind another six Pokemon up to the sixties, and since my favourite Pokemon is Metapod, that's pretty hard.
So, yeah. Any tips?
Your favorite is the cocoon pokemon that does nothing? lol
Post by: martinuzz on January 07, 2016, 10:21:56 am
https://youtu.be/S587ncQR8ps (https://youtu.be/S587ncQR8ps)
Post by: Morrigi on January 07, 2016, 01:30:35 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on January 08, 2016, 07:22:02 am
Post by: Morrigi on January 08, 2016, 10:06:15 am
And about the migration crisis, what really strikes me the moderate view a year or two ago was border control and limited immigration, and mass deportations and razor wire were considered to be madness. The moderate view is now rapidly moving towards mass deportations and razor wire, and mass lynching is considered to merely be madness, instead of unthinkable. This could get out of hand.
Post by: smjjames on January 08, 2016, 10:16:55 am
And about the migration crisis, what really strikes me the moderate view a year or two ago was border control and limited immigration, and mass deportations and razor wire were considered to be madness. The moderate view is now rapidly moving towards mass deportations and razor wire, and mass lynching is considered to merely be madness, instead of unthinkable. This could get out of hand.
That's just on the Republican side, unless you mean Europe.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 08, 2016, 01:26:32 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2016, 08:18:09 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 08, 2016, 08:27:18 pm
It's kind of depressing to see news articles titled "What is a Hydrogen Bomb?"The world's first eco-friendly munition which converts people into water
Post by: Flying Dice on January 08, 2016, 08:35:16 pm
Post by: Morrigi on January 08, 2016, 09:43:55 pm
I mean Europe. The American immigration problem is small potatoes compared to this disaster.And about the migration crisis, what really strikes me the moderate view a year or two ago was border control and limited immigration, and mass deportations and razor wire were considered to be madness. The moderate view is now rapidly moving towards mass deportations and razor wire, and mass lynching is considered to merely be madness, instead of unthinkable. This could get out of hand.
That's just on the Republican side, unless you mean Europe.
Post by: Strife26 on January 08, 2016, 09:47:15 pm
It's kind of depressing to see news articles titled "What is a Hydrogen Bomb?"
You expect the average person to understand the different flavors of nukes?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 08, 2016, 10:03:57 pm
Not to mention, but it's been a long time since there was any real threat of a nuclear attack.It's kind of depressing to see news articles titled "What is a Hydrogen Bomb?"
You expect the average person to understand the different flavors of nukes?
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2016, 10:57:55 pm
Not to mention, but it's been a long time since there was any real threat of a nuclear attack.It's kind of depressing to see news articles titled "What is a Hydrogen Bomb?"
You expect the average person to understand the different flavors of nukes?
History is important! It's not even that long ago. Of course, my experience in school was that if a normal history class made it past world war II, it either ran out of time shortly after, or zipped through everything beyond at lightning speed.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 09, 2016, 01:20:33 am
There's an awful lot of it, and the subtle nuances of "large explosive things nobody ever uses but everyone is afraid somebody else will use" are kind of besides the point most of the time. Most people aren't familiar with the exact specifications of the average tank or the differences between various conventional warheads either.Not to mention, but it's been a long time since there was any real threat of a nuclear attack.It's kind of depressing to see news articles titled "What is a Hydrogen Bomb?"
You expect the average person to understand the different flavors of nukes?
History is important! It's not even that long ago. Of course, my experience in school was that if a normal history class made it past world war II, it either ran out of time shortly after, or zipped through everything beyond at lightning speed.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 09, 2016, 01:27:43 am
If I had to wager a guess, an H-bomb works by fusing hydrogen together, whereas other nukes usually split uranium.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2016, 02:29:56 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2016, 02:32:36 am
Post by: Sheb on January 09, 2016, 03:07:19 am
Post by: wierd on January 09, 2016, 01:16:28 pm
A heavy water processing facility would draw the immediate attention of the various international nuclear regulatory agencies, because there really isn't a whole lot you do with heavy water on that kind of scale-- at least nothing NORTH Korea has demonstrated serious interest in. (It is used in a number of theoretical physics experiments, some medical applications, and a few others. All are things that Best Korea has shown almost pathological disdain for.)
The lack of appropriate processing facilities, the incorrectness of the seismic data of the device test, and the bombastic nature of Best Korea all kind of say that this was not a genuine staged nuclear device with a powerful secondary fusion cycle based explosive-- EG, an "H bomb". Rather, it looks like either a conventional fission only nuke, like they have done in the past, or a boosted nuke, like Sheb suggests. (that would require significantly less pure, and less total quantities of those isotopes of hydrogen.)
Really, if Best Korea was trying to get attention, they could have done it with far more seriousness if they had stated that they were going to build a heavy water processing plant to further their nuclear program, then proceeded to do THAT instead of poisoning the ground someplace in their tiny little backward plot of ground for centuries to come. But hey, PR machines are rarely known for being sensible.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2016, 01:17:54 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on January 09, 2016, 01:26:10 pm
Post by: Strife26 on January 09, 2016, 01:28:00 pm
Post by: wierd on January 09, 2016, 01:53:04 pm
While potentially much cleaner (within reason-- it IS a nuclear device) than a staged weapon or boosted weapon, the device would need to have an initial confinement system comparable to that of a sustained fusion power plant to reach enough energetic events to have an explosion of any significant output. That would put the cost of manufacture and the number of required component parts outside the scope of a throw away device. Focusing the concussive force, or the xray/microwave emissions of a fission device into a fusion capable material chamber to induce spontaneous fusion is much more practical.
Besides, a multi-stage device is more than capable enough. The 50-100 megaton device detonated by the soviet union (Tsar Bomba) was only a 3 stage device-- theoretically, staged devices can go up to 7 stages in the reaction, with increasingly more energy dense fusion materials, and be significantly more powerful. Unless you are trying to blow planets apart though, there's not a legitimate need for a device of that kind of explosive potential.
I could see Best Korea developing and testing a boosted device-- but that is different from a staged device. When people say 'H bomb", they mean staged device.
Post by: Strife26 on January 09, 2016, 02:25:30 pm
If anyone has a workable tertiary stage thermonuclear weapon, I haven't heard of it. Not much call for it, either. Nuclear arms race is over.
Post by: Grim Portent on January 09, 2016, 03:07:16 pm
Oh, by the way, that Mao statue from before got demolished as soon as it was finished. We consumerist dystopic moral story now.
Why? By Who?
Reportedly they took it down after internet criticism said the money could have been better spent on things like healthcare and education.
I doubt that's the real reason, as it would have been cheaper in the short term to leave it where it was and it wasn't that expensive as monuments go to begin with, and China isn't exactly renowned for caring about public opinion.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 09, 2016, 03:08:17 pm
Post by: Grim Portent on January 09, 2016, 04:22:33 pm
wasnt paid by the state eitherr supposedly
Decided to google it a bit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/giant-golden-chairman-mao-statue-destroyed-henan-province
That article says it was built by a village in the Henan province as a tribute to Mao on their own initiative and was possibly torn down because it was on someone's land.
Post by: martinuzz on January 09, 2016, 06:53:25 pm
The agreement was reached when Artur Mas, leader of the seperatist movement, resigned. The CUP had lost all trust in him, and his departure was a hard demand on continuing any negotiations on forming a government.
Mas will be replaced by Carles Puigdemont, the current mayor of Girona.
Post by: Sergarr on January 09, 2016, 07:01:16 pm
That must be one hell of a rich village.wasnt paid by the state eitherr supposedly
Decided to google it a bit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/giant-golden-chairman-mao-statue-destroyed-henan-province
That article says it was built by a village in the Henan province as a tribute to Mao on their own initiative and was possibly torn down because it was on someone's land.
Post by: Grim Portent on January 09, 2016, 07:08:32 pm
That must be one hell of a rich village.wasnt paid by the state eitherr supposedly
Decided to google it a bit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/giant-golden-chairman-mao-statue-destroyed-henan-province
That article says it was built by a village in the Henan province as a tribute to Mao on their own initiative and was possibly torn down because it was on someone's land.
Quote
Before the demolition, Liu Jianwu, dean of the Mao Zedong research centre, said entrepreneurs and residents of Henan’s Zhushigang village appeared to have dreamed up the statue in order to commemorate China’s revolutionary leader.
Could be they just came up with the idea and got money from somewhere else to build it.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 07:22:20 pm
Post by: martinuzz on January 09, 2016, 07:31:52 pm
Post by: Bouchart on January 09, 2016, 07:34:18 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 09, 2016, 07:36:43 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2016, 07:38:31 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 09, 2016, 07:38:58 pm
The tsar bomb wasn't a remotely feasible device for application as anything other than research, pride, or an evil overlord's massive self destruct system.
If anyone has a workable tertiary stage thermonuclear weapon, I haven't heard of it. Not much call for it, either. Nuclear arms race is over.
What was any more unfeasible abou the tsar bomb than any other bomber-dropped nuclear weapon of the time?
Post by: Egan_BW on January 09, 2016, 08:02:38 pm
Post by: Sergarr on January 09, 2016, 08:08:34 pm
It took some special modifications that greatly reduced the flight range, IIRC.The tsar bomb wasn't a remotely feasible device for application as anything other than research, pride, or an evil overlord's massive self destruct system.
If anyone has a workable tertiary stage thermonuclear weapon, I haven't heard of it. Not much call for it, either. Nuclear arms race is over.
What was any more unfeasible abou the tsar bomb than any other bomber-dropped nuclear weapon of the time?
Post by: martinuzz on January 09, 2016, 08:11:51 pm
Yeah, to fit the bomb they needed to both remove fueltanks, obviously decreasing range, as well as remove the bomb bay doors (diminishing range even further because of drag)It took some special modifications that greatly reduced the flight range, IIRC.The tsar bomb wasn't a remotely feasible device for application as anything other than research, pride, or an evil overlord's massive self destruct system.
If anyone has a workable tertiary stage thermonuclear weapon, I haven't heard of it. Not much call for it, either. Nuclear arms race is over.
What was any more unfeasible abou the tsar bomb than any other bomber-dropped nuclear weapon of the time?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 09, 2016, 08:12:56 pm
Post by: martinuzz on January 10, 2016, 04:48:44 pm
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2016/01/10/sean-penn-took-meeting-jungle-el-chapo/78589972/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2016/01/10/sean-penn-took-meeting-jungle-el-chapo/78589972/)
an extradiction deal between Mexico and the US, trading el Chapo for Sean Penn could make for a nice Hollywood drama movie
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2016, 07:00:12 pm
I read it earlier, it was far, far longer than it needed to be.
The tl;dr would be El Chapo wants people to know that Sinaloa is good and only uses force in self defense, drug business is only way to make a living where he grew up, and as long as there is demand there will be supply. Penn spent most of the article writing about everything that happened like it was a really short novel, and also pretentiously moralizing about the war on drugs in one very puzzling paragraph where he appeared to say that legalization would solve all our problems.
Post by: martinuzz on January 11, 2016, 08:09:34 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on January 11, 2016, 08:35:41 am
I said it before, As an islamaphobe (I hope everyone here knows that I believe that Islam should be banned in any civilized country?) and nationalist I should be in a " burn those Arabs with Fire" camp but I am not. I am in "EU should learn to stop ignoring problems with pseudo-tolerance doctrine" camp and sadly European public is failing to do that with some remaining in a world of fairytales and other going straight from the world of fairytales to blatant xenophobia.
PS. New Year events in Germany are very suspicious for me. They look like a well planned provocation.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 11, 2016, 08:43:44 am
Considering Progresive Thread was lost to this exact topic, handle with care, or preferably not at all.
Post by: MarcAFK on January 11, 2016, 08:50:46 am
Post by: martinuzz on January 11, 2016, 09:30:23 am
Post by: Strife26 on January 11, 2016, 09:42:57 am
With the recent destruction of the Calm And Progressive Discussion Thread, I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that while the DPRK Thread's topic is wide and encourages frivolity, to not actually get the best thread to have ever on Bay 12 locked.
Considering Progresive Thread was lost to this exact topic, handle with care, or preferably not at all.
Didn't this topic kill the actual European thread too?
Post by: penguinofhonor on January 11, 2016, 09:43:52 am
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on January 11, 2016, 09:44:13 am
I'm pretty sure that it did.With the recent destruction of the Calm And Progressive Discussion Thread, I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that while the DPRK Thread's topic is wide and encourages frivolity, to not actually get the best thread to have ever on Bay 12 locked.
Considering Progresive Thread was lost to this exact topic, handle with care, or preferably not at all.
Didn't this topic kill the actual European thread too?
Post by: martinuzz on January 11, 2016, 09:57:20 am
Post by: wobbly on January 11, 2016, 09:57:46 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on January 11, 2016, 10:14:52 am
Post by: Sergarr on January 11, 2016, 11:54:46 am
Quote from: the true face of france
According to sensitive information available to this
these individuals, Qaddafi's government holds 143 tons of gold, and a similar amount in silver. During late March, 2011
these stocks were moved to SABHA (south west in the direction of the Libyan border with Niger and Chad); taken from
the vaults of the Libyan Central Bank in Tripoli.
This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency
based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an
alternative to the French.franc (CFA).
(Source Comment: According to knowledgeable individuals this quantity of gold and silver is valued at more than $7
billion. French intelligence officers discovered this plan shortly after the current rebellion began, and this was one of the
factors that influenced President Nicolas Sarkozy's decision to commit France to the attack on Libya. According to these
individuals Sarkozy's plans are driven by the following issues:
a. A desire to gain a greater share of Libya oil production,
b. Increase French influence in North Africa,
c. Improve his internal political situation in France,
d. Provide the French military with an opportunity to reassert its position in the world,
e. Address the concern of his advisors over Qaddafi's long term plans to supplant France as the dominant power in
Francophone Africa)
This is from official government page of USA, so it's as far from fake as it could possibly be.
Notice that there isn't any word mentioned on stuff like "democracy, human rights, responsibility to protect" and other crap that was given to the public to justify Libya conflict. Not even as a tertiary reason.
No, it was all because of fucking gold, oil, and need to reassert military hegemony!
Post by: martinuzz on January 11, 2016, 11:59:18 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXd155v8Z5U
Post by: Flying Dice on January 11, 2016, 11:59:55 am
It's a statute of Mao, not Lenin. Come on now.So it's marching towards the RoC, then?
Post by: WealthyRadish on January 11, 2016, 01:13:59 pm
I'm curious what the motivation for releasing (or neglecting to classify) this is, unless a waiting period for these memos has expired and their release is mandatory.
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on January 11, 2016, 02:03:31 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 11, 2016, 02:11:16 pm
With the recent destruction of the Calm And Progressive Discussion Thread, I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that while the DPRK Thread's topic is wide and encourages frivolity, to not actually get the best thread to have ever on Bay 12 locked.
Considering Progresive Thread was lost to this exact topic, handle with care, or preferably not at all.
I noticed that was suddenly locked, but I've never read it myself.
This is from official government page of USA, so it's as far from fake as it could possibly be.
Notice that there isn't any word mentioned on stuff like "democracy, human rights, responsibility to protect" and other crap that was given to the public to justify Libya conflict. Not even as a tertiary reason.
No, it was all because of fucking gold, oil, and need to reassert military hegemony!
... You're jumping to conclusions.
That's an email. It's from "Sid" (Sidney Blumenthal) to "Hillary." He basically says "Well, we sanctioned Gaddafi, but he can still pay his troops because he has lots of SILVER AND GOLD. SILVER AND GOLD." And then he gives what he thinks are reasons Sarkozy might have decided to get involved.
His opinions aren't the opinions of the government. He wasn't even any kind of intelligence officer.
Let's see what Wikipedia says about him:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Blumenthal#Relations_with_Secretary_of_State_Clinton
Blumenthal, a longtime confidant of Bill and Hillary Clinton, earned about $10,000 a month as a full-time employee of the Clinton Foundation. During the 2011 uprising in Libya against Muammar Gaddafi, Blumenthal prepared, from public and other sources, about 25 memos which he sent as emails to Clinton in 2011 and 2012, which she shared through her aide, Jake Sullivan, with senior State Department personnel. In the form of intelligence briefings, the memos sometimes touted his business associates and, at times contained inaccurate information.[19] (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/us/politics/what-sidney-blumenthals-memos-to-hillary-clinton-said-and-how-they-were-handled.html)[20] (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/us/politics/clinton-friends-libya-role-blurs-lines-of-politics-and-business.html)
The wikipedia article also cites the New York Post, but I can't even imagine why a tabloid would be a worthy source of information for a wikipedia page, even prefaced with "The tabloid New York Post asserted that..." Whoever added that neglected to link the citation to the article either, even though it is online. ::)
Post by: scriver on January 11, 2016, 09:25:07 pm
This is based entirely on my media intake during and after the whole thing, so I admit it is flawed and definitely subjective.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 11, 2016, 09:31:28 pm
... DAN YOU PHONE.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 11, 2016, 11:26:28 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on January 11, 2016, 11:31:13 pm
use is love, usa is life.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: scriver on January 12, 2016, 01:14:23 am
Post by: miljan on January 12, 2016, 03:49:45 pm
What the fuck (https://www.foia.state.gov/searchapp/DOCUMENTS/HRCEmail_DecWebClearedMeta/31-C1/DOC_0C05779612/C05779612.pdf)Quote from: the true face of franceAccording to sensitive information available to this
these individuals, Qaddafi's government holds 143 tons of gold, and a similar amount in silver. During late March, 2011
these stocks were moved to SABHA (south west in the direction of the Libyan border with Niger and Chad); taken from
the vaults of the Libyan Central Bank in Tripoli.
This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency
based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an
alternative to the French.franc (CFA).
(Source Comment: According to knowledgeable individuals this quantity of gold and silver is valued at more than $7
billion. French intelligence officers discovered this plan shortly after the current rebellion began, and this was one of the
factors that influenced President Nicolas Sarkozy's decision to commit France to the attack on Libya. According to these
individuals Sarkozy's plans are driven by the following issues:
a. A desire to gain a greater share of Libya oil production,
b. Increase French influence in North Africa,
c. Improve his internal political situation in France,
d. Provide the French military with an opportunity to reassert its position in the world,
e. Address the concern of his advisors over Qaddafi's long term plans to supplant France as the dominant power in
Francophone Africa)
This is from official government page of USA, so it's as far from fake as it could possibly be.
Notice that there isn't any word mentioned on stuff like "democracy, human rights, responsibility to protect" and other crap that was given to the public to justify Libya conflict. Not even as a tertiary reason.
No, it was all because of fucking gold, oil, and need to reassert military hegemony!
Watch this old interview with USA general more than 10 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mXsoYrXaMQ
Good that their plans are not going as fast as they wanted, but they are unfortunately still successful in one way or another
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2016, 04:00:48 pm
Nah, Khadaffi began as a revolutionary himself, clad in communist colours iirc.Islamic socialism, Arab pan-nationalism and when he couldn't get the Arab world united switched to African pan-nationalism
Post by: smjjames on January 12, 2016, 04:04:18 pm
Nah, Khadaffi began as a revolutionary himself, clad in communist colours iirc.Islamic socialism, Arab pan-nationalism and when he couldn't get the Arab world united switched to African pan-nationalism
And an all around crazy nut.
I remember when people were rumorizing that Ghaddafi had fled to Columbia or Venezuela or something and then Ghaddaffi went on air and basically said 'Yo! I'm still here and ain't going nowhere!'.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2016, 04:33:00 pm
Of course he was the next one to die but the best part was Assad laughing at him
Post by: martinuzz on January 12, 2016, 04:36:00 pm
Everything is USA fault, always blame USA, god dammit USA why did you kill the RomansThe USA is not the USA's fault, we have the British to blame for that
Post by: Sergarr on January 12, 2016, 04:38:47 pm
And French, don't forget French. They've supported their revolution, after all...Everything is USA fault, always blame USA, god dammit USA why did you kill the RomansThe USA is not the USA's fault, we have the British to blame for that
Post by: Descan on January 12, 2016, 04:45:04 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2016, 04:50:36 pm
The USA made Britain Great by making America's British B Team bankrupt the FrenchEverything is USA fault, always blame USA, god dammit USA why did you kill the RomansThe USA is not the USA's fault, we have the British to blame for that
USA's fault again
Post by: martinuzz on January 12, 2016, 04:53:58 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2016, 05:05:02 pm
My country should just have never traded New Amsterdam (New York's original name, NY was founded by the Dutch) for Surinam. It's the Dutch' fault.Probably shouldn't have also fooled around with a guy called God's Executioner
YOU COULD'VE LISTENED TO CROMWELL
WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN
THIS IS THE FUTURE YOU CHOSE
Post by: miljan on January 12, 2016, 05:27:06 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/danish-lawmakers-mull-proposal-refugees-cash-151149202.html
Post by: smjjames on January 12, 2016, 05:30:07 pm
Danish to seize migrants valuables to pay for their stay in asylum centres
http://news.yahoo.com/danish-lawmakers-mull-proposal-refugees-cash-151149202.html
That's actually been a thing for at least a month or two now.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 12, 2016, 05:44:57 pm
Post by: martinuzz on January 12, 2016, 05:59:50 pm
Current negative rates on bank savings actually make it unprofitable to have cash reserves for the government. They think this measure can save the canton 2.5 million euros.
They are now brainstorming if it is possible to fine people who pay their taxes early.
It's not the only country though to take measures to keep their national reserve as low as possible. Some of the Scandinavian countries are also trying to keep their cash reserves low, but Switzerland has the lowest negative rate, with the -0.75% rate set by the Swiss bank early 2015, to forcibly devaluate the Swiss franc. They don't want the franc to be worth much more than the euro, to prevent their companies from being unable to compete on the global market.
Up until recently, the banks had not dared to charge the negative rates for their really big customers, but now they no longer have a choice. The canton of Zug is one of those big customers now affected.
Private savings of the citizens of Switzerland are not affected yet by the negative rates, to prevent people from all paying their taxes early, against which there are no measures in place yet.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 12, 2016, 07:03:20 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on January 12, 2016, 07:12:53 pm
Post by: martinuzz on January 12, 2016, 07:15:40 pm
I'm also not sure if I can regard this as quite humourous (even though my cynical half is sniggering). If this becomes a trend in the western world, we'll arrive at a situation where every state is completely at the mercy of investors (even moreso than they already are), since they won't even have any reserves anymore to deal with whatever situation.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2016, 07:17:24 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2016, 07:40:08 pm
No, only private Swiss bank accounts owned by Swiss citizens.
I'm also not sure if I can regard this as quite humourous (even though my cynical half is sniggering). If this becomes a trend in the western world, we'll arrive at a situation where every state is completely at the mercy of investors (even moreso than they already are), since they won't even have any reserves anymore to deal with whatever situation.
Haven't invented deficit spending yet?
Post by: misko27 on January 12, 2016, 08:46:08 pm
Maybe we could take a couple of those refugees of your hands? But you'd have to pay for the boats.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 14, 2016, 09:44:46 pm
Post by: Tawa on January 14, 2016, 09:48:56 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 14, 2016, 09:51:17 pm
It's (http://factually.gizmodo.com/that-north-korean-news-twitter-account-is-fake-1677507163) fake. (http://www.newsweek.com/interview-men-behind-fake-north-korean-twitter-account-fooled-newsweek-294438)There are no facts, only interpretations.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 14, 2016, 10:28:12 pm
Post by: Descan on January 14, 2016, 11:47:07 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 16, 2016, 02:57:03 am
Post by: andrea on January 16, 2016, 04:22:31 am
I wonder if the solution will be allowing reunification with the clause of US taking all their military hardware back home, or chinese soldiers paying a visit to dear glorious leader.
edit: there is also the possibility of forcing north korea to be sane, but that would be borderline unthinkable. If china can do that, I'll vote china as president of the world, nevermind that the position doesn't exist and you likely can't elect a country to it.
Post by: martinuzz on January 16, 2016, 05:53:43 am
edit: there is also the possibility of forcing north korea to be sane, but that would be borderline unthinkable. If china can do that, I'll vote china as president of the world, nevermind that the position doesn't exist and you likely can't elect a country to it.That would probably require euthanizing anyone over the age of 6 or 7. Anyone above that age is indoctrinated beyond our repair capacities / we don't have enough psychiatric institutions available, worldwide, to deprogram them.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 07:07:48 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 16, 2016, 08:06:53 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 08:26:02 am
Post by: andrea on January 16, 2016, 10:08:14 am
I am kind of curious about knowing the full propaganda given to north korean citizens. Probably there is an archive somewhere on the internet compiled from tales from NK defectors.
Post by: RedKing on January 19, 2016, 04:41:51 pm
Post by: martinuzz on January 19, 2016, 04:50:26 pm
Best Korea invents Best Booze (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/19/world/north-korea-hangover-free-alcohol/).The first little step to them turning into a corporate capitalist state, subduing the world with the export of hangoverless booze.
TAKE THAT HEINEKEN!
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2016, 04:56:47 pm
Best Korea invents Best Booze (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/19/world/north-korea-hangover-free-alcohol/).That's up there with the Russian fireproof paper in the list of things I want that commies had D:<
Well, presuming the Norks aren't full of fibs
Post by: SirQuiamus on January 19, 2016, 06:18:37 pm
http://kumdang2.com/ (http://kumdang2.com/)
http://kumdang2.com/ (http://kumdang2.com/)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Graknorke on January 19, 2016, 06:39:17 pm
Post by: wierd on January 19, 2016, 06:40:58 pm
Newsflash North Korea:
Hangovers are caused by a buildup of acetaldehyde in your bloodstream. This is caused by the enzymic decomposition of ethanol into acetate complexes inside your liver. (This same process is also why methyl alcohol is so deadly. Instead of producing acetaldehyde, it produces formaldehyde instead.)
So, if you have a functioning liver, and your consume alcohol in excessive quantities-- YOU WILL GET A HANGOVER.
Want to get drunk, but have no hangover? Consume something OTHER than ethanol-- OR -- suffer from all the ill health effects of having a diseased liver-- OR -- take an alcohol dehydrogenase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_dehydrogenase) inhibitor, and suffer something WORSE than a hangover.
Seriously-- those are the options. Magic ginseng extracts won't make the hangover go away after drinking alcohol to excess.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 19, 2016, 06:42:01 pm
I think there's a bunch of people moping in the Sad Thread that could do with a dose of this NK magic.
Post by: Xantalos on January 19, 2016, 07:05:07 pm
Or I'm horribly misinformed.
Post by: wierd on January 19, 2016, 08:02:45 pm
Rather, you should read as-- Acutely high levels of acetaldehyde in your bloodstream is a direct consequence of alcohol metabolization by your liver, and has been shown to cause symptoms consistent with hangover. Thus, the very consumption and metabolism of alcohol will result in hangover symptoms.
Similarly to how when you read "Smoking cigarettes causes cancer" you should be reading "The inhalation of radioactive polonium found in most cigarette ashes, along with the high concentrations of free radicals and other carcinogenic substances found in cigarette smoke has been shown to greatly increase incidence of lung and other forms of cancer."
The fact that we dont fully understand cancer does not make smoking cigarettes safe.
Likewise, the fact that we dont fully understand hangovers does not mean that drinking ethanol will ever stop causing them.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 25, 2016, 11:57:53 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 25, 2016, 12:40:14 pm
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2016, 12:50:18 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 25, 2016, 01:46:24 pm
Apparently North Koreans not all insane brainwashees, have functioning skills. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35365142)This is actually pretty fascinating, though I'm curious how objective some art girl's interpretation is.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2016, 01:51:05 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 25, 2016, 01:53:36 pm
Having seen it with my own eyes, it is an amazing landscape. If not for the everything I'd happily spend days hiking there.
Post by: Baffler on January 25, 2016, 02:23:31 pm
It's interesting too how much issue they took with certain minor details in the film. And it's tragically hilarious that Dresnok and co. ended up being the evil Americans in every single propaganda film that requires some.Apparently North Koreans not all insane brainwashees, have functioning skills. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35365142)This is actually pretty fascinating, though I'm curious how objective some art girl's interpretation is.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on January 27, 2016, 09:20:07 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2016, 09:28:05 am
Post by: Arx on January 27, 2016, 09:30:26 am
Post by: SirQuiamus on January 27, 2016, 11:08:26 am
Some interesting photos of North Korean countryside, as found in Google Maps and Panoramio:Welcome to "$CurrentYear - 500"
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 27, 2016, 11:11:05 am
Post by: SirQuiamus on January 27, 2016, 11:16:57 am
Reminds me of Uzumaki.If you look closely at the satellite images, you can see that the whole country is being rearranged into a giant spiral.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 27, 2016, 02:27:19 pm
Now, they may be ramshackle buildings piled together hap-hazardly, but I still love the Korean architectural style.Yeah, was gonna say. Pretty neat-looking.
Post by: smjjames on February 06, 2016, 07:55:55 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 06, 2016, 09:36:38 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on February 06, 2016, 11:12:40 pm
*oops left out a word.
Post by: martinuzz on February 07, 2016, 04:04:30 am
Post by: Shadowlord on February 07, 2016, 04:08:11 am
Post by: martinuzz on February 07, 2016, 04:11:32 am
I guess he doesn't care if South Korea gets obliterated by a dozen nukes?US and South Korea are having talks right now as we speak, about installing American high-tech short and long range anti missile systems in South Korea.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 07, 2016, 04:22:30 am
I mean, they'd have to detonate the nukes in the subs, because they've faked every sub launch video, but that way they'd irradiate everything on the coast and couldn't be stopped by anti-missile systems.
Relevant Maxims (http://ovalkwiki.com/The+Seventy+Maxims+of+Maximally+Effective+Mercenaries):
#20: If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win
#31: Only cheaters prosper
#35: That which does not kill me has made a tactical error
#42: "They'll never expect this" means "I want to try something stupid."
#43: If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky
#52: The army you've got is never the army you want
Post by: andrea on February 07, 2016, 05:05:53 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 07, 2016, 05:17:30 am
lets not forget all the conventional artillery pointed on seoul.
This is the actual threat here. Sure, I guess if you left it long enough Kim Jong Woo could build nukes for both of his submarines, but they've made, like, five nuclear tests ever.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 07, 2016, 06:26:18 am
at some point China is going to North Korea. they are such a massive pain to everyone.
Quote from: DJ link=topic=71452.msg1742835#msg1742835
(23-11-2010)
at some point China is going to North Korea. they are such a massive pain to everyone.
Any war would lead to North Korea folding very quickly, certainly not something that would lead to millions of deaths.
I don't think China would actually much oppose such a move these days. From what is known to us, the PRC is starting to regard North Korea like a spoiled half-cousin who is far more trouble than they are worth.
And if they do this, they lose China's support, and the US marches in. They KNOW China said they'd pull their support if NK attacked anyone.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 07, 2016, 11:43:25 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 07, 2016, 12:03:07 pm
I need a chart.
Post by: martinuzz on February 07, 2016, 12:35:52 pm
Sometimes I really think a lot of countries would be better off, if we just went back to enlightened colonialism.
Post by: Baffler on February 07, 2016, 12:55:25 pm
Things were so much easier when Indonesia was still Dutch property, and the only importance China had was their debt to their heroin dealer, Great Britain.
Sometimes I really think a lot of countries would be better off, if we just went back to enlightened colonialism.
I know you're not serious, but...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Even if it is true, the idea has a lot of bad associations.Plus I think old timey racism is sort of funny and I saw an excuse to link to this thing.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 07, 2016, 03:14:58 pm
Things were so much easier when Indonesia was still Dutch property, and the only importance China had was their debt to their heroin dealer, Great Britain.Zimbabwe being the caricature-level example of this.
Sometimes I really think a lot of countries would be better off, if we just went back to enlightened colonialism.
Even if it is true, the idea has a lot of bad associations.Plus I think old timey racism is sort of funny and I saw an excuse to link to this thing.Meaning some people can't be trusted to govern their own assessments on the matter, and will someday be glad for my enlightened direction. You have good taste. Poor taste? You have good taste in poor taste, maybe.
Post by: Strife26 on February 07, 2016, 09:09:39 pm
Things were so much easier when Indonesia was still Dutch property, and the only importance China had was their debt to their heroin dealer, Great Britain.Zimbabwe being the caricature-level example of this.
Sometimes I really think a lot of countries would be better off, if we just went back to enlightened colonialism.Even if it is true, the idea has a lot of bad associations.Plus I think old timey racism is sort of funny and I saw an excuse to link to this thing.Meaning some people can't be trusted to govern their own assessments on the matter, and will someday be glad for my enlightened direction. You have good taste. Poor taste? You have good taste in poor taste, maybe.
Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa
Post by: SirQuiamus on February 08, 2016, 08:10:23 am
all hail Kim Il-Sun, the first Beloved Sun King of the solar system!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 08, 2016, 09:46:51 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 08, 2016, 09:53:57 am
Post by: Nullsrc on February 08, 2016, 10:19:57 am
Post by: Graknorke on February 08, 2016, 10:30:02 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 08, 2016, 12:47:54 pm
50 years late and running the race backwards?Yeah, like one day a solar flare will knock out all of our electronics and the DPRK space agency will chortle haughtily when they save the day with rockets powered by proletariat tears
Post by: SirQuiamus on February 08, 2016, 02:25:53 pm
Are no proletariat tear in Worker Juche Paradise of Best Korea. Only tear in Best Korea shed in memory of late Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il and late Great Leader Kim Il-Sung. And first and last Beloved Sun King Kim Il-Sun.50 years late and running the race backwards?Yeah, like one day a solar flare will knock out all of our electronics and the DPRK space agency will chortle haughtily when theysave the dayliberate the world with bamboo rockets powered byproletariat tearsKumdang 2 Kaesong Ginseng Extract and Best Koryo Liquor.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 08, 2016, 04:00:01 pm
Oh, that would explain why NK words things like "If we do a thing and you defend yourself we will take that as an act of war". So for example if Japan were to shoot down one of North Korea's missile tests they could claim that it's actually a defensive not offensive war.In the case of (totally not) military testing specifically, I'm not sure there's any nations that wouldn't take that as an act of war or at least a really dick move.
More generally, I assumed that was because they were crazy and/or that's how politics works. Encouraging China's military support could be a strong specific goal of the latter, though.
Post by: Nullsrc on February 08, 2016, 08:24:06 pm
INB4 they actually do that.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 08, 2016, 08:37:55 pm
Post by: Nullsrc on February 08, 2016, 08:46:52 pm
Survival rates are negligible. No, seriously, don't look at them. Instead, look only upon the face of the sun god, Kim Il Sun!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 08, 2016, 08:58:29 pm
Post by: Nullsrc on February 08, 2016, 10:16:54 pm
Post by: Descan on February 08, 2016, 11:17:23 pm
Not that Ra incarnated as Sun, but that after his death, he ascended to the heavens and became the Egyptian sun god, and alien parasite. You think time has any meaning for one such as he!?
Post by: Nullsrc on February 08, 2016, 11:58:41 pm
Praise Kim Il Sun
Post by: SirQuiamus on February 10, 2016, 03:46:29 pm
Post by: Nullsrc on February 10, 2016, 04:03:14 pm
Fear not! Dear leader Kim Il Sun has glorious power over American solar panel effectiveness. They shall be brought to their knees in due time!
Post by: RedKing on February 10, 2016, 04:09:43 pm
Ra IS Kim Il Sun.Egypt was actually founded by ancient Korean explorers. Imperialist racist textbooks shroud the truth.
Not that Ra incarnated as Sun, but that after his death, he ascended to the heavens and became the Egyptian sun god, and alien parasite. You think time has any meaning for one such as he!?
Post by: Amperzand on February 10, 2016, 05:14:39 pm
Post by: Strife26 on February 10, 2016, 09:53:00 pm
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Wernher_von_Braun.jpg/220px-Wernher_von_Braun.jpg)
This man could walk around Itaewon without attracting any attention.
Post by: smjjames on February 10, 2016, 10:48:08 pm
Trouble in the ranks perhaps?
Post by: IronyOwl on February 10, 2016, 11:46:03 pm
Post by: Nullsrc on February 10, 2016, 11:53:01 pm
routine business
"You should in no way take any of this personally - it's just business. So, just to recap: I come in peace, I mean you no harm, and you all will die."
Post by: MarcAFK on February 11, 2016, 07:19:52 am
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/10/asia/north-korea-army-chief-ri-yong-gil-executed/index.htmlMaybe he sneezed in the presence of glorious leader?
Trouble in the ranks perhaps?
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 11, 2016, 08:32:11 am
Post by: scriver on February 11, 2016, 10:12:46 am
Post by: smjjames on February 11, 2016, 10:19:32 am
Post by: Erkki on February 12, 2016, 02:39:39 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 25, 2016, 12:37:19 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on February 26, 2016, 06:49:32 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/02/26/468297948/u-s-proposes-tough-new-sanctions-on-north-korea-with-chinas-support
Post by: martinuzz on March 16, 2016, 04:51:27 am
The criminal scum is eternally grateful for the mercy and compassion of the Glorious Leader, and the people of North Korea, and will happily work very hard to repent his crime.
(Warmbier, a 21 year old American student, was arrested after allegedly trying to steal a banner from the wall of his hotel, and has 'confessed' he did this under direct orders of a church in Ohio, which was willing to pay him for the act)
https://youtu.be/BGzl2yLjVnE (https://youtu.be/BGzl2yLjVnE)
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/17/world/asia/north-korea-otto-warmbier-sentenced.html?_r=0
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 05:51:06 am
Otto Warmbier, the American pigdog christian extremist has been convicted to only 15 years of forced labour for his hideous crime against the people's republic of North Korea.You forgot the soundtrack for the post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZiVWXjsaJg)
The criminal scum is eternally grateful for the mercy and compassion of the Glorious Leader, and the people of North Korea, and will happily work very hard to repent his crime.
(Warmbier, a 21 year old American student, was arrested after allegedly trying to steal a banner from the wall of his hotel, and has 'confessed' he did this under direct orders of a church in Ohio, which was willing to pay him for the act)
https://youtu.be/BGzl2yLjVnE (https://youtu.be/BGzl2yLjVnE)
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/17/world/asia/north-korea-otto-warmbier-sentenced.html?_r=0
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 16, 2016, 06:57:08 am
Post by: Helgoland on March 16, 2016, 07:04:54 am
Post by: Bauglir on March 16, 2016, 07:07:40 am
Is he really called Warmbier? That's a sucky name if I ever saw one.It's nothing compared to Bernie Porn, EPIC-MRA.
Post by: Catmeat on March 16, 2016, 07:26:54 am
In all honesty I want NK to stop being cowards and just fucking send enough nukes into the moon and fuck the whole shit planet in one epic tidal shift, if it does work then fun. It wont because itl take alot of energy to do so but I would like it.
Leave a message to any et that may visit this system
Here lived a hate filled spiteful race that couldnt get their shit together, and here is some genetic material to study.
Ps dont replicate
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 16, 2016, 07:52:01 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 16, 2016, 08:10:37 am
Post by: Sheb on March 16, 2016, 08:22:42 am
Post by: Elephant Parade on March 16, 2016, 09:22:26 am
Post by: martinuzz on March 16, 2016, 09:27:57 am
I tend to not believe in students going on tour trips to North Korea though. Guy is probably CIA, sent to check on nuclear progress or whatever. In which case, 15 years is harsh, but it's a risk of the trade, so I can't really feel too sorry for him.
Post by: BFEL on March 16, 2016, 09:36:23 am
Post by: Sheb on March 16, 2016, 09:38:39 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 16, 2016, 09:42:48 am
Post by: Sheb on March 16, 2016, 09:43:32 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 09:43:36 am
Dont worry though, they wont actually keep him 15 years in forced labor. It's not like this hasn't happened in the past. They'll keep him in a cell somewhere for a couple of months, sabre-rattle a bit, and release them as soon as they have managed to get some political-economical concession from the US govt.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 16, 2016, 09:53:47 am
Why would his church want him to steal a banner?Fuck if I know, maybe to make a statement? Like everything else that comes out of NK, this is inexplicable.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 09:59:15 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Catmeat on March 16, 2016, 10:06:45 am
If I where the leader, I would have him paper cut with said banner until he crys like a little boy, then after the two papercuts I would dip him in a very hot bath and get him dileriously hot, make him run naked in a cold field and blow him up with a heat seaking missile.
Then nuke the moon while smoking his remains in the banner and drinking the finest Korean rice wine, with my american buddy.... hmmm mel gibson... yes he will be my buddy
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 16, 2016, 10:25:49 am
Need I remind you this will not cure werewolves
Post by: martinuzz on March 16, 2016, 10:53:14 am
They'll keep him in a cell somewhere for a couple of months, sabre-rattle a bit, and release them as soon as they have managed to get some political-economical concession from the US govt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX0XDHF3M60
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 16, 2016, 10:57:37 am
He deserves his time.
If I where the leader, I would have him paper cut with said banner until he crys like a little boy, then after the two papercuts I would dip him in a very hot bath and get him dileriously hot, make him run naked in a cold field and blow him up with a heat seaking missile.
Then nuke the moon while smoking his remains in the banner and drinking the finest Korean rice wine, with my american buddy.... hmmm mel gibson... yes he will be my buddy
Why do I have the unsettling suspicion that you were being actually turned on by what you typed?
Post by: TempAcc on March 16, 2016, 11:21:46 am
Post by: BFEL on March 16, 2016, 11:25:43 am
I was about to note that this sounded like the beginning of a slashfic, but the sentient poop beat me to it.He deserves his time.
If I where the leader, I would have him paper cut with said banner until he crys like a little boy, then after the two papercuts I would dip him in a very hot bath and get him dileriously hot, make him run naked in a cold field and blow him up with a heat seaking missile.
Then nuke the moon while smoking his remains in the banner and drinking the finest Korean rice wine, with my american buddy.... hmmm mel gibson... yes he will be my buddy
Why do I have the unsettling suspicion that you were being actually turned on by what you typed?
Post by: Teneb on March 16, 2016, 12:03:14 pm
"Oh yeah, baby. Nuke the moon, just like that."I was about to note that this sounded like the beginning of a slashfic, but the sentient poop beat me to it.He deserves his time.
If I where the leader, I would have him paper cut with said banner until he crys like a little boy, then after the two papercuts I would dip him in a very hot bath and get him dileriously hot, make him run naked in a cold field and blow him up with a heat seaking missile.
Then nuke the moon while smoking his remains in the banner and drinking the finest Korean rice wine, with my american buddy.... hmmm mel gibson... yes he will be my buddy
Why do I have the unsettling suspicion that you were being actually turned on by what you typed?
Post by: MarcAFK on March 19, 2016, 01:21:25 am
Glorious leader will not be outshined by anyone!
Post by: Teneb on March 19, 2016, 06:23:10 am
You guys realise the entire point of the DPRKSP is to nuke the moon right? That thing has been invading best Korea with it's illuminatilumination for decades.Eclipses are a capitalist ploy to intimidate Korean people by blocking glorious leader's radiance.
Glorious leader will not be outshined by anyone!
Post by: martinuzz on April 23, 2016, 05:08:05 pm
He said that North Korea is willing to cease it's nuclear program, if the US is willing to cease holding joint training missions with South Korea.
He did stress that North Korea has the right to nuclear deterrence, as long as the US' attitude makes that nescessary. He also said that international sanctions don't scare Pyongyang.
Yet, he added: "stop training for a nuclear conflict on the Korean peninsula, then we will stop our nuclear tests."
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/noord-korea-jullie-stoppen-met-legeroefeningen-wij-met-kernproeven~a4288448/
Post by: smjjames on April 23, 2016, 05:10:00 pm
The North Korean minister of Foreign affairs, Ri Su Yong, made a surprising proposal today in an interview with press agency AP.
He said that North Korea is willing to cease it's nuclear program, if the US is willing to cease holding joint training missions with South Korea.
He did stress that North Korea has the right to nuclear deterrence, as long as the US' attitude makes that nescessary. He also said that international sanctions don't scare Pyongyang.
Yet, he added: "stop training for a nuclear conflict on the Korean peninsula, then we will stop our nuclear tests."
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/noord-korea-jullie-stoppen-met-legeroefeningen-wij-met-kernproeven~a4288448/
Sounds like they're trying to call our bluff.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 23, 2016, 05:18:03 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 23, 2016, 05:20:28 pm
That's actually reasonable. Huh. Never expected that out of NK.
Post by: smjjames on April 23, 2016, 05:22:31 pm
I'd be wary of getting stabbed in the back though, so to speak.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 23, 2016, 05:30:53 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 23, 2016, 05:32:13 pm
Post by: Culise on April 23, 2016, 06:15:23 pm
It would be a good way to get South Korea to consider a diplomatic pivot to China if the US went insane and accepted it as-is, though. While North Korea would not win in any resumption of the Korean war, the big fear south of the border is the casualties that would ensue before the DPRK defeat. While it's no longer entirely probable, diplomatic incidents like those in 2010 and 2015 could easily escalate, especially if it's clear the US won't respond, and the ROK must consider its own security as well. Without the US, ironically, it's China that becomes the guarantor of (a highly Sino-centric) security in the Far East.
Post by: Helgoland on April 23, 2016, 06:21:28 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2016, 06:55:50 pm
The former's reasonable, the second isn't
Post by: Helgoland on April 23, 2016, 06:58:42 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2016, 07:00:44 pm
Not training for nuclear war doesn't preclude training for conventional war.
Post by: Helgoland on April 23, 2016, 07:07:59 pm
Quote
North Korea's foreign minister said Saturday in an interview with The Associated Press that his country is ready to halt its nuclear tests if the United States suspends its annual military exercises with South Korea.Source. (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/20c4cf71589542a2858a2b885d9de2bc/nkorea-ready-halt-nuke-tests-if-us-stops-skorea-exercises)
So yeah, it's more like 'reduce your readiness for conventional combat, and we'll reduce our efforts to create a nuclear deterrent'. Which... actually is reasonable if NK actually believes that the US and SK might start a war - and if we consider the NK leadership to be sane enough to not start a war themselves, it might actually be worth trying in order to start a disarmament process (of conventional forces).
Do note however that this is NK asking for the US to make the first step - it has little to do with a possible nuclear war.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 23, 2016, 07:14:03 pm
Post by: Culise on April 23, 2016, 07:28:15 pm
Post by: smjjames on April 23, 2016, 07:50:12 pm
Don't now how 'dirty' modern nukes are compared to the older ones used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki though.
Post by: Culise on April 23, 2016, 08:21:07 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on April 23, 2016, 08:36:15 pm
The training exercises are also for conventional strategic warfare, FD, and they're being asked to scrap those.Yeah, that's what I was asking about (and not getting a clear answer on), whether it was that or just anti-nuclear exercises. Because I couldn't into foreign-ese.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2016, 09:26:34 pm
Don't now how 'dirty' modern nukes are compared to the older ones used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki though.Technically less, unless you want it to be a dirty bomb. Contaminant spread and explosive yield are inversely proportional, because the latter results in more fissile material being "rapidly and energetically altered".
However, modern nukes also use more material than the WWII ones, and that increased yield would spread whatever contaminants remain over far greater distances.
Post by: Amperzand on April 23, 2016, 10:39:48 pm
What that means is that they don't pull up much debris to irradiate, so the main part of fallout is the bomb itself. Then the fallout itself is thrown into the stratosphere, where it can spread out and hang around for weeks or months, giving the worst of the isotopes time to decay.
For this reason, and because it increases area of effect for both flash and blast at a small cost to small-target obliterative capability, nuclear weapons deployed by a properly equipped power will be detonated anywhere from several hundred feet up to the edge of space, depending on desired results.
[Said edge-of-space bombs are used to create an EMP, rather than for their blast, at least unless they're some kind of gigaton-yield doomsday device.]
Post by: TheDarkStar on April 23, 2016, 11:12:59 pm
Of course, if you want to EMP a large area, you only need a handful of nukes for a given continent.
Post by: Amperzand on April 23, 2016, 11:40:10 pm
Of course, if you want to only need one bomb, a single multi-gigaton bomb is going to basically light half the planet on fire.
To be clear, such a weapon is entirely possible, and has been ever since we figured out thermonukes. Fission/fusion hybrid bombs, you see, scale their yield indefinitely. Keep piling lithium deuteride and plutonium 239 on one another, and you keep getting more bang, it's not particularly complex by the standards of such things. It's just that something like that requires a confluence of lots and lots of money with the kind of batshit insanity that wants to burn half a planet with one bomb.
Post by: smjjames on April 24, 2016, 02:57:42 pm
Anyways, Obama says: Offer, REJECTED! (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/obama-response-north-korea-nuclear-tests-deal)
Post by: Amperzand on April 24, 2016, 03:21:39 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 28, 2016, 07:08:43 pm
Ciao darlings, and remember, it's not really coercion if the alternative is death! : D
Post by: Egan_BW on April 28, 2016, 07:17:01 pm
praise be the dprk thread
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2016, 05:34:36 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 01, 2016, 06:54:17 am
IT'S LEAKING INTO REALITY (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36168487)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 01, 2016, 07:44:59 pm
Post by: smirk on May 01, 2016, 08:12:29 pm
"Sir John Major has told those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU to "go to North Korea" if they want "undiluted sovereignty"."STEADFAST PEOPLE OF UNITED BEST KINGDOM SING PRAISES OF GLORIOUS LEADER BOGO AND INDOMITABLE LONDONISTAN SHEKEL-JUCHE, IMPERIALIST EUROPOORS COWER BEFORE UNITED BEST KINGDOM'S REVOLUTIONARY MIGHT
IT'S LEAKING INTO REALITY (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36168487)
(Am I doing this right? I think I'm doing this right.)
Post by: Teneb on May 01, 2016, 08:32:45 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2016, 12:02:11 am
ᴉs ʇɥᴉs ɹǝɐl lᴉɟǝ oɹ ᴉs ʇɥᴉs ɾnsʇ ɟɐuʇɐsʎ¿
Trump wins best endorsement. (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/north-korea-praises-wise-politician-donald-trump)
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 01, 2016, 12:22:40 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 05, 2016, 02:13:23 pm
Quote
North Korea has backed presumptive U.S. Republican nominee Donald Trump, with a propaganda website praising him as "a prescient presidential candidate" who can liberate Americans living under daily fear of nuclear attack by the North.
A column carried on Tuesday by DPRK Today, one of the reclusive and dynastic state's mouthpieces, described Trump as a "wise politician" and the right choice for U.S. voters in the Nov. 8 U.S. presidential election.
It described his most likely Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton, as "thick-headed Hillary" over her proposal to apply the Iran model of wide sanctions to resolve the nuclear weapons issue on the Korean peninsula.
Trump instead has told Reuters he was prepared to talk to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un to try to stop Pyongyang's nuclear program, and that China should also help solve the problem.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-trump-idUSKCN0YN35S
T-minus 90 seconds and counting
All systems are go
About 90 seconds before launch of spacial discovery
Coming up for launch
Tank pressurization is good, Medical Officer is go
This is Control, APU start is go
Switching to internal power
Solid rocket booster auxiliary power units have started
Management of countdown switched to the onboard computer
5
4
3
2
1
Solid rocket boosters have ignited, we have lift off
The tower has been cleared
All engines are good
Commence roll maneuver
We are at Mach 1, throttle engines from 100% to 65%
Maximum dynamic pressure has been reached, throttle main engines back to 100%
Solid rocket boosters have successfully separated
Auxiliary power units have been shut down
External tank unmbilical doors have been sealed and latched
Orbital maneuvering system burn has been initiated
Control, this is Sides, over
Sides have entered orbit, over
Roger, Sides, Out.
Post by: Elephant Parade on June 05, 2016, 02:32:42 pm
textmy poor eyes
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proper spacing saves lives, you know
Post by: MarcAFK on June 05, 2016, 03:32:10 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 05, 2016, 04:03:01 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 05, 2016, 04:52:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 05, 2016, 04:53:42 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on June 05, 2016, 04:56:53 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on June 06, 2016, 12:16:28 am
We're approaching orbit, not FTLActually I was referring to the space shuttle launch you quoted normally running at 109% throttle, but nvm.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 06, 2016, 07:56:17 am
Psh, the Han couldn't even remove rebel.Then I'll guess they'll just be Han Solo
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2016, 09:43:08 am
Speaking of KOREA, President KIM JONG-UN has plans to make STAR KOREA real. According to the JUCHE newspaper SERVICE TO THE STATE, the ONE AND ONLY KOREAN government wants to spend multiple TRILLIONS on a research program that will not only result in the development of a 'patriotic' programming language, but by 2035, is also meant to provide a functional teleportation system.
THE SUCCESS OF THIS PROGRAM IS ASSURED BY THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH OF KIM JONG-UN
Scientists at the university of PYONGYANG succeeded last year in teleporting information carrying particles over a distance of INTO THE IMPERIALIST AMERICAN HEART OF DARKNESS. This technology could be used in the future to send data that canDESTROY IMPERIALIST WARMAKING CAPACITY AND BRING PEACE TO THE WORLD.
GREAT GENERAL KIM JONG-UN are also operating in that field. But insofar, the announcement of the project mostly met with PATRIOTIC SUPPORT FROM THE ENLIGHTENED WORKING CLASS OF KOREA.
"37 million IMPERIALISTS still have a toilet cabin STOLEN FROM THE WORKING CLASS out in the backyard. And the government wants to spend 10 billion WON on teleportation? IT IS ONLY RATIONAL"
http://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/-rusland-investeert-miljarden-in-teleportatiesysteem~a4326883/
i will not be outplayed, I'm still relevent, DRPK thread is stll rellevent!
Post by: SirQuiamus on June 26, 2016, 11:42:21 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 26, 2016, 11:49:34 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 26, 2016, 11:51:33 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 26, 2016, 12:05:02 pm
....Pyongyang has an university?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Science_and_Technology
Post by: SirQuiamus on June 26, 2016, 12:17:00 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 26, 2016, 11:23:35 pm
Post by: Sergarr on June 26, 2016, 11:57:22 pm
Uh-huh.I've even heard that this university has scientists. And that they occasionally go out to international conferences. Of course, they're always accompanied on this trip by the Political Officers who make sure they don't try to run away, and they don't bring much science with them, but you know, them's the breaks.
Post by: Sheb on June 27, 2016, 01:45:57 am
Post by: Strife26 on June 27, 2016, 06:52:19 am
My dad met a bunch of NK scientists at an agroforestry conference. Twas great fun apparently.
It's pretty rare that other human beings aren't fun, even if they are underneath a literal dystopia. There's a good moral lesson in there, I'd say.
Post by: Sheb on June 27, 2016, 07:32:03 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 01, 2016, 12:23:03 pm
Let us come together this 5th of July to discuss great patriotic American politics. Please come to post all your military secrets and desire for reformist democratic socialist policy. We are so good. We will destroy the revolutionary cadres in Korea and bring about the victory of capitalism for great Wall Street patriots. We will have all the snow.
Yes.
Post by: Baffler on July 01, 2016, 04:36:29 pm
Hello friends.
Let us come together this 5th of July to discuss great patriotic American politics. Please come to post all your military secrets and desire for reformist democratic socialist policy. We are so good. We will destroy the revolutionary cadres in Korea and bring about the victory of capitalism for great Wall Street patriots. We will have all the snow.
Yes.
This seems suspicious but I've never been mislead here before. A squadron of F-22's was recently transferred to █████ from ███████ and will remain there for the foreseeable future. Their mission is [Redacted], and protecting against UFO incursion.
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2016, 04:42:49 pm
Post by: 90908 on July 01, 2016, 05:11:31 pm
What is this, the SCP wiki!? Heresy I tell you!Hello friends.
Let us come together this 5th of July to discuss great patriotic American politics. Please come to post all your military secrets and desire for reformist democratic socialist policy. We are so good. We will destroy the revolutionary cadres in Korea and bring about the victory of capitalism for great Wall Street patriots. We will have all the snow.
Yes.
This seems suspicious but I've never been mislead here before. A squadron of F-22's was recently transferred to █████ from ███████ and will remain there for the foreseeable future. Their mission is [Redacted], and protecting against UFO incursion.
Post by: Baffler on July 01, 2016, 05:27:45 pm
What is this, the SCP wiki!? Heresy I tell you!
Wow. I forgot that place even existed, but still managed to imitate its style.
I'm gonna have to go take a lot 'round there for a bit.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on July 01, 2016, 05:33:47 pm
Post by: 90908 on July 01, 2016, 05:35:30 pm
@Baffler:But it capitalizes all the [REDACTED]s.Damnit. You've ruined it Fish. You've ruined everything.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2016, 04:23:06 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2016, 04:51:27 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2016, 05:20:59 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2016, 05:22:18 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on July 07, 2016, 12:30:50 am
Well congratulations, you got capitalist thread locked. Now what's the next step of your master plan?Capitalism is obviously unstable, only dankism can survive.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 07, 2016, 06:21:20 am
Post by: Teneb on July 07, 2016, 07:39:16 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 07, 2016, 07:39:27 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 07, 2016, 08:05:44 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 07, 2016, 08:22:18 pm
First is the Ty the Tasmanian Tiger run, which was sort of a halfway repeat of the Crash 2 incident. The runner was very nervous and disorganized, completely disregarded the Pacifist Run donation incentive and instead donated 1$ per enemy killed (what a penalty). Somewhat worse, he just sort of ignored a donation comment from the game's developers and his comments about the game's programing faults were more spiteful than lighthearted. I say a halfway repeat because, while the GDQ organizers more or less said they would never invite him back, they didn't throw him out of the convention, go full Internet Tough Guy threats on twitter, and get his Twitch shut down like with the Crash 2 runner.
The second cringe was just an hour ago, where the "Trials Ascend community speedrun" was not a speedrun and more of a boring, mostly silent 1 1/2 hour long ad by people who were at least wearing Trials Ascend shirts. I'm not sure what their involvement with the game was, but it was maybe the worst thing I've ever seen at GDQ. They also went overtime.
On the good side, GDQ appears to have backed off some on their bland corporate sanitation direction. They're still not allowing swearing per se, but anything PG-13 gets a pass and the streamers who have dropped F-bombs so far have just been asked to not instead of them freaking out about it.
On that note, this GDQ also has the single best speedrun I've ever borne witness to, which was Bonesaw's Jak and Daxter 100% run. The tech was fairly regular, but what made this run was that it was graveyard shift and consisted of Bonesaw and his couch going steadily insane alongside the GDQ staff, everything going wrong but still proceeding, and Bonesaw kind-of-sort-of twitter bombing AirCanada. They also played the whole game in Japanese for a donation incentive.
The Deus Ex run was on point, as was the Tetris Block though they aren't coming back to GDQ until Tetris Grandmaster IV finally re-emerges from the vaporware. The Momodora 1-handed run turned into a feels trip, and there have been a couple of WR near-misses.
All in all, I think GDQ could finish turning itself around from January's all-time low if things continue at this pace. I was ready to swear them off, but as long as they learn from those mistakes I'll give them a chance.
Post by: MarcAFK on July 08, 2016, 12:27:48 am
Us drops more sanctions on NK,
NK says that's a declaration of war,
US deploys missiles to South Korea,
NK is butt hurt,
Oblama says Kim pirates too much money,
Kim blames obama for Brexit.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on July 08, 2016, 01:05:08 am
Post by: MarcAFK on July 08, 2016, 07:26:57 am
Declaration of war, really? :vNK thinks everything the US does is a declaration of war.
Post by: Teneb on July 08, 2016, 07:32:09 am
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 08, 2016, 08:39:18 am
Which is funny, because the Korean war never really ended, so they're already at war.Ceasefire
Post by: Teneb on July 08, 2016, 08:47:21 am
Which is not peace or the end of the war. Ceasefire only means they stop shooting at each other foot an unspecified amount of time.Which is funny, because the Korean war never really ended, so they're already at war.Ceasefire
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 08, 2016, 12:49:34 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 08, 2016, 12:50:16 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 08, 2016, 01:28:33 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on July 08, 2016, 04:10:52 pm
This is what I had to do to get you people to talk about Best Korea again?What, bringing up random stuff related to best Korea rerailed the topic? Whoot da thun kit!
Post by: miauw62 on July 08, 2016, 07:00:24 pm
Post by: MarcAFK on July 09, 2016, 12:36:37 am
I thought GDQ was a game developer I hadn't heard of.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2016, 05:53:27 am
Post by: MarcAFK on July 09, 2016, 07:16:58 am
THQ are a game devWas a game company, though after it went bankrupt and was split apart someone bought the name, they might be using it ATM.
Post by: Strife26 on July 10, 2016, 08:28:09 am
Post by: uber pye on July 10, 2016, 09:35:11 pm
North Korea is an important problem to consider. The best Mexican food I've ever eaten was within artillery range of the border, which puts the restaurant at grave peril.
the best Mexican food you've eaten is in South Korea?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 10, 2016, 09:52:05 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on July 10, 2016, 11:19:55 pm
Post by: Rose on July 10, 2016, 11:41:23 pm
Damn it, guys, now I want to go visit Skyrunner.I think she's in Cali right now, so it's doable.
Post by: MaximumZero on July 10, 2016, 11:42:31 pm
Post by: scriver on July 10, 2016, 11:49:02 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 11, 2016, 01:14:25 am
Post by: MarcAFK on July 11, 2016, 01:27:27 am
I haven't head of them for a while. Maybe the lan-gulag was repurposed for something more economically viable, like the former NK fishing fleet who were grounded because of fuel shortage and became phishermen.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 11, 2016, 10:34:47 am
How did this games stuff end up in the Best Thread?As all conversations go on, the likelihood that they will end up in the Best Korea thread reaches 1
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 11, 2016, 12:20:14 pm
gorrilion folded pommel cut through german steel
Post by: hops on July 25, 2016, 08:42:29 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 26, 2016, 06:02:26 am
Post by: Strife26 on July 26, 2016, 08:22:51 am
Some of the best fried chicken I've ever eaten was in South Korea, so this checks out.
Oh yeah, Korean fried chicken and a pitcher of Cass is also pretty amazing. I really need a good excuse to get back to the Peninsula, actually.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on July 26, 2016, 12:07:24 pm
Okay status report but is that game with Kim Jong-Il fighting capitalist pigdogs out yet?
You mean "Glorious Leader"? In January 2015, the devs were the target of a massive hacker attack that wiped out their PCs, after which the development ceased. There's been no news from the devs since then.
It's a shame, the game was extremely promising. There aren't many good 16-bit-inspired games these days.
Post by: martinuzz on July 27, 2016, 08:30:25 am
Border patrol units have been tasked with wading the river to catch the snakes before they can make landfall.
Meanwhile South Korea is complaining about North Korea using the river to spread propaganda leaflets.
https://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?num=14007&cataId=nk01500 (https://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?num=14007&cataId=nk01500)
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2016, 05:49:44 am
Post by: MarcAFK on July 28, 2016, 09:28:16 am
Nah they're venomous ratshttp://www.themediablog.co.uk/.a/6a011570c131b2970c01b8d1ad2318970c-pi
Innocent rats seeking asylum in Britain illegally imprisoned by terrorist chavs.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 31, 2016, 12:06:37 am
Post by: WealthyRadish on August 31, 2016, 12:21:30 am
Post by: IronyOwl on August 31, 2016, 04:24:34 am
Saw the banner on the right, gave it away, 6/10, still curious about that wool though.Science has never gone too far. I for one look forward to our seagull adonis overlords.
Post by: hops on August 31, 2016, 08:39:54 am
Post by: RedKing on August 31, 2016, 12:21:28 pm
Post by: hops on September 01, 2016, 02:14:56 am
Post by: Baffler on September 01, 2016, 08:23:39 am
What about edu-anion?
See? How could any system of education that produces punnery like this possibly be the best choice for Best Korea?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 02, 2016, 04:17:56 pm
Post by: misko27 on September 02, 2016, 05:47:02 pm
Do you think this is a fucking game? (http://upclickbuzz.com/) Stop making fun of genocide, you gamer freaks.Well that spooked me. And I was already spooked, so damn.
So there might be an allegedly dead American teaching English in North Korea. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/david-sneddon-found-north-korea-english-12-years-byu-kim-jong-un-a7220951.html)Hmm. You know, I'm really looking forward to when the DPRK gets taken down, and someone goes through their damn archives and sorts the fact from fiction.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 02, 2016, 06:08:58 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 05, 2016, 11:36:17 pm
Spoiler: Exclusive footage of Best Korea's Space Program (click to show/hide)
Post by: RedKing on September 06, 2016, 08:26:31 am
So there might be an allegedly dead American teaching English in North Korea. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/david-sneddon-found-north-korea-english-12-years-byu-kim-jong-un-a7220951.html)I'm skeptical of this one. If he had disappeared from Heilongjiang, sure. But Yunnan? That's down near Thailand. Awfully long way to send kidnappers for a dude hiking. Most of the abductions of Americans have been opportunistic, when people literally traipse around Pyongyang and give them some semi-legit cover for detaining them.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 08, 2016, 05:02:54 pm
Post by: martinuzz on September 09, 2016, 12:58:00 am
North Korea did another nuclear test. A surface test, not an underground test. The government in Pyongyang says no radioactivity has leaked and there is no danger for the environment.
According to NK, this was a succesful test of a sized down bomb, that can be fit onto a missile.
The UN has measured a 5.3 earthquake, making this the strongest nuclear test so far. Also, it seems true that this was a surface test. The USGS (United States Geoligical Survey) reports that the measured seismic activity occured at the surface, instead of underground, like with the last 4 tests.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 09, 2016, 01:24:35 am
Is this the DPRK thread? I think it is.No, this is the Kim Jong Un Application thread.
You know what I like about Kim? EVERYTHING
But especially his thighs
Calves of steel are under those pants, I just know it.
Post by: Sheb on September 09, 2016, 01:32:50 am
Is this the DPRK thread? I think it is.
North Korea did another nuclear test. A surface test, not an underground test. The government in Pyongyang says no radioactivity has leaked and there is no danger for the environment.
According to NK, this was a succesful test of a sized down bomb, that can be fit onto a missile.
The UN has measured a 5.3 earthquake, making this the strongest nuclear test so far. Also, it seems true that this was a surface test. The USGS (United States Geoligical Survey) reports that the measured seismic activity occured at the surface, instead of underground, like with the last 4 tests.
No footage?
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on September 09, 2016, 04:03:37 am
No google maps pics?Is this the DPRK thread? I think it is.
North Korea did another nuclear test. A surface test, not an underground test. The government in Pyongyang says no radioactivity has leaked and there is no danger for the environment.
According to NK, this was a succesful test of a sized down bomb, that can be fit onto a missile.
The UN has measured a 5.3 earthquake, making this the strongest nuclear test so far. Also, it seems true that this was a surface test. The USGS (United States Geoligical Survey) reports that the measured seismic activity occured at the surface, instead of underground, like with the last 4 tests.
No footage?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 09, 2016, 04:06:25 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 09, 2016, 06:34:35 am
Post by: hops on September 09, 2016, 08:56:29 am
Post by: martinuzz on September 09, 2016, 09:02:09 am
Post by: martinuzz on September 11, 2016, 05:44:40 am
haha "bunch of Obama's", at least they get bonus point for being funny on that one.
South Korea has responded to the latest nuclear test by stating that they will "wipe Pyongyang off the map at the first signs of a possible nuclear attack by North Korea".
The South Korean military command reports that they have a plan ready to turn Pyongyang into ashes and remove it from the map with (conventional) ballistic missiles and artillery bombardments(South Korea does not have nukes), and that special elite units are ready to take out the North Korean military commanders at any first signs of agression.
Post by: hops on September 12, 2016, 09:35:55 am
Post by: misko27 on September 12, 2016, 12:22:58 pm
North Korean tactics are, presumably, to cause the worst humanitarian disaster since the end of WW2 and drop a bomb bigger than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki's on a city that is between 20 and 30 times more populated then Hiroshima was.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 12, 2016, 01:01:24 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 12, 2016, 01:03:35 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 21, 2016, 12:50:33 am
Here's a compiled list if you'd like to get viruses from ten years ago, many are currently DDoSd. (https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/53p9e2/north_korea_has_accidentally_enabled_outside/d7v38bw)
Post by: misko27 on September 21, 2016, 01:31:09 am
Post by: hops on September 21, 2016, 04:45:57 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 21, 2016, 05:01:48 am
Edit: Here we are.
Hey Skyrunner (or anyone else who knows Korean), does the North Korean government really sound that ridiculous all the time in Korean, or is some of that a translation issue?Yes.
:P
They talk in a distinctive style that's made fun of often and they also are stupidly obviou in thir propangda. There's a reason SK doesn't worry about the North->South propangda (we're rich and they sound hilarious) but NK flips out every time something comes their way.
Also, we know their artillery works because they used it on Yunpyungdo a couple years back.
Post by: hops on September 21, 2016, 05:55:41 am
Post by: Guardian G.I. on September 21, 2016, 07:35:58 am
North Korea has provided global access to its intranet, not sure if it's intentional. (http://www.craveonline.com/design/1122013-north-korea-accidentally-leaked-propaganda-websites#/slide/1)I don't think that's the Kwangmyong network - actual North Korean intranet websites use numerical addresses like "10.240.100.11". (http://www.northkoreatech.org/2015/07/06/a-peek-inside-north-koreas-intranet/)
Here's a compiled list if you'd like to get viruses from ten years ago, many are currently DDoSd. (https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/53p9e2/north_korea_has_accidentally_enabled_outside/d7v38bw)
That list from that Reddit post contains all North Korean Internet websites. Kwangmyong is basically a giant LAN, so I don't think you can actually access it from the Internet itself.
Post by: Grimlocke on September 21, 2016, 09:57:11 am
Given that DRPK is based on Maoism with an extra dose of cult worship of the leader, it would surprise me if they went back to using every day language for their propaganda. Listen to any news broadcasts of the DRPK, and compare it to the ones from South Korea. The North Korean presenters take a far more bombastic and grandiose tone of voice, with that sneering, judgemental tone applied to anything the state does not approve of.
So, probably the DRPK news articles are translated correctly, but to its people and its leaders it doesn't sound as ridiculous as its part of their ideology.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 21, 2016, 07:13:56 pm
I assume South Korean tactics are focused on active defense; meaning acting aggressively to destroy any threat to Seoul, such as Artillery, and obviously the Nuclear Weapons, if at all possible. Only then is proper occupation invovled.I would presume they either use it as a sword of damocles to say "yeah if you invade N/K we blow up all of Korea", or try to blow up a US fleet to halt absolute wreckage
North Korean tactics are, presumably, to cause the worst humanitarian disaster since the end of WW2 and drop a bomb bigger than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki's on a city that is between 20 and 30 times more populated then Hiroshima was.
Post by: hops on September 22, 2016, 01:27:01 am
Post by: Sheb on September 22, 2016, 01:54:42 am
Post by: misko27 on September 22, 2016, 02:03:43 am
I'm not sure how effective nukes are against moving targets.I mean, an ICBM wouldn't have great accuracy, but if you are doing it Enola Gay style you're more then fine (although that raises the concern of being shot down). A middle option: a short range missile, is an interesting question that depends on their rocket making skills.
As the size of a nuclear bomb increases, the need for aim decreases proportionally. This is, incidentally, explains an interesting bit of Cold War trivia: ICBMs only became important around the time that Hydrogen bombs were being rolled out, as the significantly greater explosive power meant that the risk of aiming at a major city and hitting an outer suburb was diminished. After all, when the bomb gets big enough, who cares?
Granted, Tactical Nuclear weapons are actually much smaller then Strategic ones, but I don't think Korea's nuclear arsenal has developed to the point where there's a difference. And it's not like it is a bad thing to use big bombs tactically (they have a hell of a bang), it's just that usually you'd want smaller ones while keeping the big ones for bombing major targets.
Post by: smjjames on September 22, 2016, 09:07:42 am
Depends on the accuracy of the delivery system. Nukes would be great against a surface fleet, if you have a missile able to deliver it without being shot down.
I know there was a test done with an underwater detonation, no idea if one was done on a surface fleet with a nuke detonated above the water surface. Probably as deadly as a land based one, except that there's a higher chance of irradiated ships still actually floating. At least we can just use a submarine to torpedo them underwater if that were the case.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2016, 02:38:42 pm
Post by: Baffler on September 22, 2016, 05:12:28 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 22, 2016, 10:24:03 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2016, 10:27:09 pm
One would think those would be swept for rather rigorously, but yeah.The ocean is very big and the detonation could be manual
Post by: Flying Dice on September 22, 2016, 10:28:45 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2016, 10:34:53 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 23, 2016, 02:03:28 am
One would think those would be swept for rather rigorously, but yeah.The ocean is very big and the detonation could be manual
I mean, if they were sufficiently paranoid they could probably rig the mines to detonate when attacked with normal sweeping methods. Or make the clearing of a conventional mine the trigger for the nuclear detonation. You can add nukes to horseshoes and hand-grenades pretty fairly, after all. Or, hell, set them to manually detonate and seed them inside conventional minefields.Now there's good thinkin'.
Or best of all, say you've put nuclear sea mines in the ocean, when you haven't. US navy starts cautiously searching for nuclear sea mines that don't exist. Plan backfires when China invadesI mean, the threat is half the point with mines of most varieties, right?
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 23, 2016, 06:44:03 am
Despite being old as fuck, their subs can still avoid detection (http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-why-north-koreas-decrepit-submarine-force-still-freaks-out-the-south-2015-8?r=US&IR=T), providing a real risk of conventional suicide attacks or a worst case scenario nuclear attack
Pretty much, area of denial and all thatOr best of all, say you've put nuclear sea mines in the ocean, when you haven't. US navy starts cautiously searching for nuclear sea mines that don't exist. Plan backfires when China invadesI mean, the threat is half the point with mines of most varieties, right?
I would not want to be a mine disposal diver, often because bringing a torch could trigger the detonation, they have to work in cold darkness underwater and figure out what mine is located underwater by feeling it by hand. Imagine that as your job description, you blindly feel up bombs in conditions that would kill most people normally lol
How small does anyone think NKorea's made their warhead anyways? They say it's miniaturized but Western Media calls that bullshit
Post by: Flying Dice on September 23, 2016, 10:23:10 am
How small does anyone think NKorea's made their warhead anyways? They say it's miniaturized but Western Media calls that bullshitMust... resist temptation... to crack joke.
probablyabouttwoincheslong
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 23, 2016, 10:30:00 am
Post by: RedKing on September 23, 2016, 11:04:26 am
Post by: SirQuiamus on September 24, 2016, 06:58:22 am
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 24, 2016, 12:21:05 pm
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2016, 03:30:49 pm
Yet Another Cowardly Imperialist Plot to Assassinate the Beloved Leader (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/09/205_214524.html)
No surprise that they'd have such a contingency plan. What IS surprising though is that the guy apparently blabbed about it right in the open. I mean, that's like telling your enemy 'Yo, we're gonna assassinate you soon!'.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 24, 2016, 10:06:26 pm
If NK actually attacks, SK is going to be about as screwed as it ever will pretty much immediately. There's obviously some merit to taking out sustained artillery and such as soon as possible, but assassinating the top brass isn't going to do anything once the button's been pressed.Yet Another Cowardly Imperialist Plot to Assassinate the Beloved Leader (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/09/205_214524.html)
No surprise that they'd have such a contingency plan. What IS surprising though is that the guy apparently blabbed about it right in the open. I mean, that's like telling your enemy 'Yo, we're gonna assassinate you soon!'.
On the other hand, if SK says it will assassinate the top brass, theoretically the top brass might be less willing to actually invade, which is far more productive. It could also just be a poorly thought out hawk thing or trying to speak NK's language, in which case of course they're going to brag about how tough they are and how all illegal aggressors will be destroyed immediately and with overwhelming force.
So the same reasons NK keeps bragging about nuking the US, basically, except SK's claims are actually plausible.
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2016, 10:37:58 pm
If NK actually attacks, SK is going to be about as screwed as it ever will pretty much immediately. There's obviously some merit to taking out sustained artillery and such as soon as possible, but assassinating the top brass isn't going to do anything once the button's been pressed.Yet Another Cowardly Imperialist Plot to Assassinate the Beloved Leader (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/09/205_214524.html)
No surprise that they'd have such a contingency plan. What IS surprising though is that the guy apparently blabbed about it right in the open. I mean, that's like telling your enemy 'Yo, we're gonna assassinate you soon!'.
On the other hand, if SK says it will assassinate the top brass, theoretically the top brass might be less willing to actually invade, which is far more productive. It could also just be a poorly thought out hawk thing or trying to speak NK's language, in which case of course they're going to brag about how tough they are and how all illegal aggressors will be destroyed immediately and with overwhelming force.
So the same reasons NK keeps bragging about nuking the US, basically, except SK's claims are actually plausible.
And top brass being Kim Jong-Un. Though it's also calling his bluff, in a somewhat dangerous way.
Post by: RedKing on September 25, 2016, 03:08:17 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 25, 2016, 05:27:38 am
South Korea knows what to do if they hear "Nuclear launch detected" -- spam vision and kill all Ghosts. They'll be fine.North Korea tech is so behind they haven't research cloaking tech yet, meaning they're wide open for a liberator freedom rush
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 25, 2016, 01:57:15 pm
After all, I'm pretty sure that NK's army is mostly just Marines and Tank, a combination that doesn't do very well against massed FREEDOM. I'm pretty sure that Kim just had them build a Ghost Academy as a feint; they're relying on mass bunkered marines and sieged tanks. The biggest problem is that they don't have any Medivacs, so that army is hamstrung when it comes to mobility, while SK is using a much more advanced tech army, ready for marine/marauder drops right into the mineral lines. While that drop's going on, what's Kim going to do against a Hellion/Cyclone attack against his third to snipe some buildings?South Korea knows what to do if they hear "Nuclear launch detected" -- spam vision and kill all Ghosts. They'll be fine.North Korea tech is so behind they haven't research cloaking tech yet, meaning they're wide open for a liberator freedom rush
Post by: 90908 on September 25, 2016, 03:00:24 pm
Post by: Max™ on October 28, 2016, 11:51:56 am
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3025416
That's a hell of a thing, but surely the president would come out and tell everyone how absurd it is, right?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/10/25/south-korea-leader-acknowledges-ties-to-woman-in-scandal.html
Ah yes, she acknowledged ties to her...
WAIT WHAT?
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/767405.html
I think I speak for everyone when I say: WTF 2016!?!?!
Post by: Teneb on October 28, 2016, 12:39:18 pm
Post by: Max™ on October 28, 2016, 12:43:44 pm
Post by: TempAcc on October 28, 2016, 01:23:28 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 28, 2016, 11:44:33 pm
I guess this is the closest thread for it... so uh, any of you fine folks heard about some sort of goddess cult controlling the president of South Korea?This is the 8 goddesses right?
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3025416
That's a hell of a thing, but surely the president would come out and tell everyone how absurd it is, right?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/10/25/south-korea-leader-acknowledges-ties-to-woman-in-scandal.html
Ah yes, she acknowledged ties to her...
WAIT WHAT?
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/767405.html
I think I speak for everyone when I say: WTF 2016!?!?!
From infinity /int/ posters:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 12:10:17 am
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2016, 12:12:36 am
dammit, korea
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 12:14:35 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2016, 12:18:28 am
Post by: SaberToothTiger on October 29, 2016, 02:16:58 am
Post by: Skyrunner on October 29, 2016, 05:08:49 am
(those seven characters are all I have to say for my.country)
Post by: hops on October 29, 2016, 07:54:18 am
This would be a bizarre freakin' way to find out that magic is realI guess that 2016 would be the year that the veil between the eldritch world and reality is breaking.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 09:14:59 am
lol ripStay safe, Sky.
(those seven characters are all I have to say for my.country)
Post by: Skyrunner on October 29, 2016, 09:18:40 am
(http://i.imgur.com/FgphuhZ.png)
exhibit a: police slowly moving people with five-deep shield formations, first off the road then onto smaller and smaller areas and crushing them between hundreds of healthy young men, trying to bait violence
exhibit b: police announcing that any people who don't go home will be arrested
exhibit c: spotlights trained on people to make them hard to see
some predictions:
"civilians" who will start hitting the police, giving the police an excuse to start violently subduing the protesting civilians
water trucks which will blast firetruck-strength freezing water in the 4 degree centrigrade weather, strong enough to knock a horse over
mass arrests in the name of order
we dystopia boys
BONUS:
(http://i.imgur.com/IdSbjra.png)
this guy does not want to be here
unfortunately he has no choice because he's a drafted soldier.
edit2: the police are taking videos of the protestors.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 29, 2016, 09:40:00 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 09:41:37 am
What the hell is up with 2016?It is the year of the fire monkey
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 29, 2016, 09:41:44 am
What the hell is up with 2016?2016 is up with 2016 :u
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 29, 2016, 10:42:40 am
"Democracy"North Korean propagandists will have a field day with all this mess.
(http://i.imgur.com/FgphuhZ.png)
exhibit a: police slowly moving people with five-deep shield formations, first off the road then onto smaller and smaller areas and crushing them between hundreds of healthy young men, trying to bait violence
exhibit b: police announcing that any people who don't go home will be arrested
exhibit c: spotlights trained on people to make them hard to see
some predictions:
"civilians" who will start hitting the police, giving the police an excuse to start violently subduing the protesting civilians
water trucks which will blast firetruck-strength freezing water in the 4 degree centrigrade weather, strong enough to knock a horse over
mass arrests in the name of order
we dystopia boys
BONUS:
(http://i.imgur.com/IdSbjra.png)
this guy does not want to be here
unfortunately he has no choice because he's a drafted soldier.
edit2: the police are taking videos of the protestors.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 29, 2016, 10:44:31 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 10:50:20 am
North Korean propagandists will have a field day with all this mess.There is no propaganda that could be spun from this that wouldn't be worse than the plain truth
They're already having a field day with it. One descriptor that keeps coming up for Park is "tailless", I'm....not....really sure what that means.A head with no one following
Post by: smjjames on October 29, 2016, 10:52:51 am
They're already having a field day with it. One descriptor that keeps coming up for Park is "tailless", I'm....not....really sure what that means.
Is that the google translate attempt or the literal translation? I have no idea myself. Maybe something akin to 'has no balls' (despite her biologically having 'no balls' anyway)?
Though LW's explaination probably makes more sense.
Post by: Guardian G.I. on October 29, 2016, 10:57:08 am
They're already having a field day with it. One descriptor that keeps coming up for Park is "tailless", I'm....not....really sure what that means.Articles from KCNA's website about the scandal:
Spoiler: Not Safe for South Korean Work (click to show/hide)
Post by: Skyrunner on October 29, 2016, 12:56:12 pm
^ A hundred police politely listen to a woman making a rambling speech about patriotism.
It seems that at least today the protests will be ended peacefully. It is 3am in South Korea and freezing cold. To be continiued...
Post by: Ruludos on October 29, 2016, 02:10:23 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 04:39:09 pm
Everyone, breathe calmly
Korea has five-year single-term presidential limits. When that guy committed suicide he was already out of politics. So ... did the guy who was already elected have anything to do with killing off a previous president? That would be pure conjecture. It's not like the new guy had to worry about re-election chances (since you can't run for re-election). Similarly, President Park will be gone as of February 2018, which is just over 1 year from now. Some people want to remove her early, but what difference would it really make?
And ... being influenced by a religious type, who's mixed up in iffy financial practices. Say hello to America. The only reason we're hearing about this is because this Choi woman's religion isn't a mainstream one in Korea, thus the Korean media is pushing the story. It's like if a prominent Muslim cleric was backing a candidate. It would be big news in USA, not so big news in Saudi Arabia.
This is something you need to be aware of when looking at another countries news, the issue framing might be completely different for things which are not really any different. e.g. teen suicide rates in Japan. We hear all about it because the Japanese media is all over this, thus western journalists pick this up for pithy stories about "what's to be done with the Japanese suicide rate". But rates in the USA are rising too, and you hardly ever hear about that. There's not a huge difference in the suicide rates for under 20's in both countries. When does anyone in the USA give enough of a fuck about that to write a news report about it?
I looked at the figures, Japan's suicide rate is higher, but only if you look at older people. It spikes up compared to USA in the college-aged years, not in the highschool years, probably due to how competitive it is to get a job. But Japanese media is fixated on "teen suicides" not "college student suicides" because "teens" sells more panic. You should never take on faith how the media of a particular country frames an issue.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
Not a Muslim cleric, it's like we found out the U.S. president was a fucking Scientologist.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 29, 2016, 05:17:44 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 05:21:07 pm
Reelya, there's a little teensy bit of difference between "influenced by" and "has literally all her policies and decisions dictated by".Are we buying some hype here or is there evidence? I didn't see any evidence presented in any of the articles. This seems like a panic.
Not a Muslim cleric, it's like we found out the U.S. president was a fucking Scientologist.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 05:22:32 pm
We hear all about it because the Japanese media is all over this, thus western journalists pick this up for pithy stories about "what's to be done with the Japanese suicide rate". But rates in the USA are rising too, and you hardly ever hear about that. There's not a huge difference in the suicide rates for under 20's in both countries. When does anyone in the USA give enough of a fuck about that to write a news report about it?Your worldview is not my worldview, I talk about that shit loadsa times - heck, I recall you being one of the observers at some time thinking I sounded like one of your country's preachers when I brought it up :P
You should never take on faith how the media of a particular country frames an issue.I don't you cheeky shill, you've overlooked how the media can't frame the President's own admission in much positive ways - and fuck American media :]
Reelya, there's a little teensy bit of difference between "influenced by" and "has literally all her policies and decisions dictated by".*Scientologist raised by a shaman since at least she was 23, convincing her that the only way to contact her dead mother was through her - as long as she obeyed her commands. Not including the other 7 billionaire goddess members not identified
Not a Muslim cleric, it's like we found out the U.S. president was a fucking Scientologist.
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 05:25:00 pm
Quote
one of your country's preachersAre you sure you're not mixing me up with someone else? We really don't have any prominent "preachers" here to my knowledge. Australia is a very secular country. The only religious types I'm familiar with are the catholic and church of England archbishops. And I doubt I was comparing you to one of them. I also don't recall either them or you discussing youth suicide rates, so I'm not sure what thread that would even be in.
Quote
Your worldview is not my worldview, I talk about that shit loadsa timesBut you're not "the media". Some random on a forum discussing a topic isn't the same thing as saying a country's media does or doesn't focus on a topic.
Post by: TempAcc on October 29, 2016, 05:31:29 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 05:32:04 pm
Are you sure you're not mixing me up with someone else? We really don't have any prominent "preachers" here to my knowledge. I assume they exist, but I have no idea who they are, so I couldn't compare you to them. And I don't recall you talking about suicide even once so I'm not sure what thread that would even be in.You know on second thought, I may have mixed you up with someone with your views and a similar name lol
I doubt this'll be the last time, so apologies
As condolences have some info for your mind
Quote
President Park Geun Hye's brief apology Tuesday afternoon that lasted all of 1 1/2 minutes was the final blow for those who had been holding out hope that what they had seen in the news was not true.Ayyyyyyyyyyy lmao (https://archive.is/P9Vt1#selection-1852.0-1852.3)
Quote
‘It’s actually a system where Choi Sun-sil tells the President what to doIs this real life (http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/767405.html)
I answer yes
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 05:41:13 pm
Sure, she sent Choi drafts of her speeches to edit. But there's nothing particularly weird about using a close person to edit political speeches. And nobody is saying there's anything weird in the speeches themselves.
Also, we do have to remember most of the claims are being pushed by the opposition parties, and there's an election coming up for the next president in just over one year. The people involved in pushing this story have a lot to gain by blowing it up.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2016, 05:54:41 pm
I think there's evidence that this choi person was one of her advisors, but where I'd say the comparisons to "Scientology" end is that there's really no "organization" as such, from everything I'm reading. Also there's a complete lack of any religious elements to any of the accusations.Reelya what is your motive here, because trying to pass off a secret society of billionaire shamans controlling democratic leaders from behind the scenes as something normal is very suspicious
Sure, she sent Choi drafts of her speeches to edit. But there's nothing particularly weird about using a close person to edit political speeches. And nobody is saying there's anything weird in the speeches themselves.
There's a big difference between a single person with some kooky family history and an entire organization like Scientology, which basically has it's own mind-control cult and indoctrination system that works by filtering what members see and hear.
I can only assume that your focus on identity politics to the exclusion of the fetid corruption being uncovered is a western thing, and not some ulterior shitposting
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 05:56:02 pm
BTW what exactly do you mean "identity politics". That seems like it's completely tangential here.
All I said is that there's literally zero evidence of a huge religious influence going on here. There's evidence of a single person who is close to the president having influence, yes. But that's just average and not particularly noteworthy in the big scale of things. My point was that comparisons to "Scientology" are completely overblown here, as there's basically no organization.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 29, 2016, 05:59:49 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 06:01:47 pm
Um. They were literally writing the laws.
This is where you need a reality check. The South Korean president doesn't rule by decree. All legislation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_(South_Korea)#Legislative_process) must be presented to Speaker of the National Assembly by a member of the assembly, and co-signed by 10 other Assemblymen. In other words, the wording in all prospective bills need to be approved of by 11 people, none of whom are the President. The Assembly then debates and either passes or rejects the bill.
This is what I'm talking about with people getting irrational about this story. "Literally wrote the laws" is provably false, and it's definitely in zone for irrational panic.
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 06:16:55 pm
EDIT: I had to google Megalia. That's some sort of SK feminist thing? I'm not sure exactly which parts of what I wrote have any specific connection to that. I'd call out dumb irrational hype about leaders of either gender. e.g. I've called out dumb Trump claims before, when they weren't accurate. Honestly it didn't occur to me that gender was even relevant in this story. I don't normally think of politician's gender as having much relevance to feminism. Look at Thatcher. Sarah Palin. Michelle Bachman. ETC ETC.
Also, Korea is known as an extremely partiarchal society. So there are some rumors flying around that seek to discredit and crush female politicians, about how they're all evil witches who are plotting in cahoots to destroy society? Yeah right, I'm not going to automatically assume those rumors reflect reality in the slightest. Googling "Megalia" that's some sort of grass roots radfem thing in SK. Just because Park is a woman, it seems kind weird to try and link her to some recent radfem movement, purely on the basis of her gender. That's like saying Obama must be an MRA. After all, he's a dude, right?
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 06:40:14 pm
Unless you're suggesting that the chief executive in a presidential system doesn't have power to set policy, in which case pass whatever you're smoking along, we need all we can get this November.
This is seriously not the hill to die on.
And hey, when someone says "secretive mystic cabal of ultra-rich seeking to brainwash and control powerful individuals", I think Scientology.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 06:41:38 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 06:42:47 pm
Literally wrote policy.
But that's still backtracking on "literally wrote the laws". And if people were being accurate and level headed, there would be no backtracking.
Also, can you point me to the citation for that. I can find that she "received policy briefings", and the evidence that she proofed and edited speeches. But that's a step away from saying she "literally wrote" government policy, and well away from "literally wrote the laws".
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 06:44:22 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 06:53:19 pm
http://www.koreabang.com/2016/features/the-rise-of-radical-korean-feminist-community-megalia.html
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Recently, a radical feminist online community ‘Megalia’ that exhibits extreme misandry has emerged as a prominent party in Korea’s cyber gender discourse war front. They have been trying to expand their influence through organized efforts online and also present themselves as a legitimate feminist group in real life, suppressing their online extremes. The following is an example of one of the most highly up-voted posts in Megalia. This post received 891 up votes and 5 down votes.
WTF connection does a recent online radfem website have to Ms Park, president of South Korea? It's about as plausible a link as saying Hillary Clinton is an agent of jezebel.com
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 06:57:59 pm
Also, they are radfems, she's not a radfem.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 06:58:25 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 07:00:45 pm
Basically I think the real story here is pure power, money and personal influence. The religion connection is the side story. Choi is just exploiting the fact that her dad happened to have connections to the previous administration, and most likely doesn't have a lick of religious belief herself. That's notable, because she's 60 years old and nobody is highlighting any especially "religious" things Ms Choi has ever done or said.
And if you take the salacious "religious cult" aspect out of this, the story is basically a non-starter. Some confidant of the president had influence on written policy. Big fucking whoop. Someone obviously writes policy, and presidents have speechwriters, why are we supposed to care so much that it was her, exactly?
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 07:26:37 pm
Also it's totally okay for random ultra-rich people to have near-total control over the policy, speechwriting, decisions, &c. of a head of state as long as they're not religious random ultra-rich people.
Like. People have friends. People tend to trust and listen to their friends. People don't typically allow their friends to control most or all of their important decisions, even when they aren't presidents.
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 07:48:06 pm
Additionally, if the cult part is taken out all that's left is a confidante of a politician who misused their authority to make money. She's rich because she got involved in politics, she's not involved in politics because she was rich.
The "total control" comment was also about Choi Tae-min (the father), and about the younger years of Park (when she was mentored by Choi Tae-min back in the 1970s-1980s), not about the daughter (Choi Soon-sil) and the current time period. I think people are conflating those two things. Thus, saying that the daughter had "near total control" over policy and the like seems like it's not really backed up by a whole lot. After all, the dad Choi's influence stemmed from his age and authority status and his connections with Park's father, whereas Park and the daughter Choi are same-age peers, so it's going to more like a fraternal relationship.
At this stage, the story has just broken and we're in the wild rumors phase. Articles dated Sunday say they took possession of computers on Saturday. Let's at least wait until they've look at the evidence before we come up with theories.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 08:09:30 pm
She's gotten a lawyer.
The tablet with the stuff on it, btw, she denies even owning one, though it has selfies of her, the tablet ID is her daughter's name, and among the few bits of contact information in there was Park's number.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=3025427
As for the idea that it isn't related or whatnot, ehhhh.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=3025424
Like I said, this is literally like finding out Obama's best friend since they were kids is a Freemason 3rd Class and their father was a Level Green member of the Illuminati, and then going "wellllll, it's not like that means anything."
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 08:10:53 pm
As far as I can see, he set up a group called Yongsaeng-gyo (Eternal Life Church) but there's basically no reference to this group anywhere except on the wikipedia page about his life. So I'm definitely of the opinion that there's not actually a group at all.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 08:14:28 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 08:17:48 pm
That needs more evidence. For example, the existence of some members of said group, or some news coverage mentioning that the group actually exists.
After all, Elder Choi publicly created his Eternal Life Church (which was at least nominally Christian) back in the 1970s. We know that. But then he died, and there's literally no mention of the group in any media for over 20 years. Sure, you can claim they went underground to become the secret puppet masters of the New Korean Order, but we're into pure fantasy speculation territory now.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 08:19:10 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 08:27:16 pm
But generally it's nice to at least have some confirmation that a group exists before trying to work out who they are controlling.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 29, 2016, 08:28:51 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 08:40:43 pm
So basically I'd say this is actually not a whole lot different to an America evangelical super-PAC having a strong influence on political candidates. After all the American Legislative Exchange Council literally write laws then fund right-wing candidates to pass the laws exactly like the corporate lobby group wrote it.
Post by: TempAcc on October 29, 2016, 08:46:06 pm
Jokes aside, I'm with the crowd here, I don't get Reelya's angle OR the effort done to try and minimize the nature of something worth of uppercase WTF, specially since this seems to sort of be sky's reaction to the whole thing, IE the only korean in the thread.
Also, yes, lobbying by powerful groups is a common thing pretty much anywhere, but there's quite a big difference between that and literally telling the president what to do at all times, including things like speeches, and literally writing government policy in such direct way.
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 08:50:25 pm
Quote
literally telling the president what to do at all times
if you say something is happening "literally" and "at all times" then you need some really strong evidence, not hearsay and conjecture. That's my point. People in this thread, specifically, are taking it much further than any of the articles I've read on the issue.
The "total mind control" claims are very closely related to the "cult" claims. if there's no cult in the first place, then the basis of theorizing that her control is that complete starts to unravel.
Merely handwaving away the non-existence of the claimed cult, then latching onto other evidence to back up the original "total mind control" claim, could even be Confirmation Bias: e.g. people make the "total mind control" claim related to the "cult" claim, but when the "cult" claim looks questionable, they back up "total mind control" with "she edited speeches". But I can't think of any other case where we jump from "editing speeches" to "mind control". In confirmation bias cases, the causation of the logic is reversed: we want to believe in the mind control, so we bring up the evidence of the speech-writing, rather than starting with the speech-writing then proving that shows mind-control.
And another pertinent fact is that in Korea, Christianity was only introduced in the post-WWII Era. When the elder Choi started a Christian church in the 1970s that would in itself have been viewed as a radical cult regardless of how mainstream their Christian beliefs were. "Shamanism" is how they described traditional Korean religion, so articles labeling him as "Shamanistic" leader are equally unhelpful. What exactly does that mean in the context of a nation where Shamanism was mainstream?
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 09:38:31 pm
Well you're free to believe literally anything. Like shape-shifting alien lizard emperors. Totally can't rule that out.I try not to believe anything, the idea of holding something to be true without evidence bothers the shit out of me. Doubt is preferable to unwarranted certainty, I'm saying your certainty that there isn't something is as unwarranted as someone claiming there is something.
But generally it's nice to at least have some confirmation that a group exists before trying to work out who they are controlling.
Post by: Reelya on October 29, 2016, 09:44:25 pm
My main point was that the cult doesn't seem to really exist, thus making some of the tenor of the claims hyperbolic. Basically, the Korean media is freaking out about cults, but nobody can provide any evidence of an actual organization which has the required characteristics. To me, this is clearly a minor case of moral panic, similar to ones that have gripped America about non-existent cults in the past. In the 1980s-1990s the American media was absolutely convinced that satanic cults were infiltrating daycare centers and schools across the nation. Very few media outlets challenged this "fact".
This is a normal corruption scandal but people are reading a lot into it based on hype in the local press. The main solid evidence is that someone with close connections to the president used that to make money. The fact that she's the daughter of a guy who started a church 45 years ago (back when any form of Christianity itself would have been regarded as radical in Korea) seems like a side-story.
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 09:53:36 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 29, 2016, 10:21:20 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 29, 2016, 10:33:08 pm
It's not uncommon in Asia that Christianity gets syncretized with indigenous belief systems and comes out....a bit off-kilter. And sometimes dangerously so. Like the Taiping Rebellion in China, led by a guy who claimed to be Jesus' half-brother.
Choi Tae-min apparently claimed to be Maitreya, a messianic bodhisattva from Buddhist tradition, which in itself shows it's some kind of syncretic belief system, not bog-standard Christianity of any stripe. Even if you understand Maitreya to be an attempt to contextualize Jesus within Buddhist tradition...if the preacher claims to *be* Jesus, we usually call that a cult and take a big step backwards (while mouthing "call the police" to anybody nearby).
The problem is that original source material is damn near impossible to find now, because the search terms are in a zillion blogs and news sites now. And there's a lot of similar cults out there to seperate it from including *another* Yeongsang-gyo cult which was founded in 1981 and has a seriously checkered past, including murder, kidnapping, and underground temples (like, literally subterranean -- including in New York and Philadelphia). I'm....not altogether clear on whether the two are related, because I have fuck-all skill in reading Korean.
Also keep in mind that you have CIA documents indicating that Choi Tae-min was telling Park, back in 1974, that he had the ability to channel her dead mother.
So no, this is not 'oh noes Koreans don't understand Christianity and are calling it a cult'. This is 'oh noes Koreans are calling a cult a cult and rightfully concerned at its proximity to their current President for the last 20+ years'.
EDIT: Hey, Skyrunner, can you confirm if the two 영생교 I'm seeing reference to are related? I don't *think* they are, and the website for the latter Yeongsang-gyo seems to deny any connection, but it's hard to tell because Google Translate utterly craps the bed when it comes to Korean->English. :P
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 29, 2016, 10:56:58 pm
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 11:04:12 pm
Post by: Frumple on October 29, 2016, 11:08:04 pm
Post by: Max™ on October 29, 2016, 11:10:27 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 29, 2016, 11:12:27 pm
/me sweats loudly resisting the urge to be euphoric and enlightened by his own intelligence in the DPRK Thread.Does this mean I'm being reassigned as Director of Intelligence for the People's Republic of Greater Carolina?
Post by: Skyrunner on October 30, 2016, 12:19:07 am
For starters, Yeongsaegyeo is not a generally accepted part of christianity. It's also different from the Yeongsaenggyeo which kidnapped and murdered a bunch of people half a century ago. It's basically a cult with a leadership of two, Choi's father was the first head of the religion and Choi is pointed to be the second, and the cult was founded in 1970.
(sidenote: it's incorrect to say that any old religion founded back then could be seen as radical, because Christianity came in much earlier. According to Wikipedia which cites a book <Kenneth Scott Latourette, Christianity in a Revolutionary Age: Vol. 5: The Twentieth century outside Europe (1962) pp 414-5> the "Catholic population [was] reaching 147,000, and the Protestants 168,000 in the mid-1930s." Since the two religions kept growing, any religion founded in 1970 can only be seen as a cult both in terms of radicalness, numbers and canon. Forgive me for not actually reading the citation, I'm not writing a paper for class here so... <effort>)
(http://image.kmib.co.kr/online_image/2016/1028/201610281724_61220011031417_1.jpg)
This is an ad for Yeongsaegyeo. It says something about "the savior the Creator has sent us will teach you the three values from the three religions: Buddhist nirvana, Protestant Holy Spirit, and the Catholic Heaven" and also says that you can cure any disease and uch at the bottom, and urges you to come to this one place. It's quite obviously not Christianity, because Christianity in general abhors other religions and by definition focuses on Jesus, not a random dude, as the savior. It also calls god "God," "Lord," "Father" more often than the Creator.
Now, mind control and whatnot are farfetched, but it's definitely true that Choi has had a large effect on Park. 100% of her speeches were edited by someone with no experience in speechwriting and no relationship to the government. And tons of governmental reports (which are confidential to civilians) were delivered to Choi, circumventing protection laws and programs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but normally how lobbying works is the president mentions "oh hey there's this policy that might hurt you" and the other guy says "yeah, it would suck" and then the president nudges the policy in a different direction that benefits the other guy. I suppose people see Choi as more blatant and unforgivable corruption. In this case it seems that Choi was delivered daily governmental reports, commented on the policies and recommended ways forward for Park, and on top of that edited all of her speeches despite not being a speechwriter or in any way connected to the government.
Addendum: crimes that Choi and/or Park and/or her underlings are possibly committing
Quote
Choi & Blue House officials: Violating confidentiality of military secrets
Choi: Exploring and acquiring military secrets
BHO: Leaking national secrets
BHO: Leaking diplomatic secrets
BHO: Leaking executive secrets
Choi & BHO: Offending the Law on Presidential Report Handling
Choi: Accepting/inciting bribery
Certain political defenders of Park: Brokering of bribery (ie, accepting a bribe from A on behalf of B, then giving it to B)
Varios benefactors of the nonprofit: Embezzlement
All benefactors: Embezzlement & Misappropriation of non-profit funds for personal gain
So half of these charges are related to national law and the other are plain old corruption.
here are my sources, unfortunately they are all in korean
Hangyeorae website (http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/politics/bluehouse/767264.html) line to line comparison of Dredsen Speech, which I used to verify that at least for this speech the meaning wans't radically changed.
Namu wiki page: Choi Sun Shil Gate (https://namu.wiki/w/최순실%20게이트) overview of "choi sun-shil gate." It's not Wikipedia but rather Namu Wiki, which works on the same wiki base but has a much larger number of participating people. Korean wikipedia is kindof a shell compared to the English one.
Namu wiki page: Choi Sun Shil (https://namu.wiki/w/최순실) this page emphasizes that Yeongsaegyeo is NOT Yeongsaenggyeo.
Kukmin Ilbo (Citizens' News) article (http://news.kmib.co.kr/article/view.asp?arcid=0011031417&code=61221111&sid1=mis) this news article reiterates that fact and is also the source of the advertisement. Incidentally, Citizens' News is a Christian-founded media so it may be biased, though the newspaper advertisement seems to be legitimate.
PS: You might note that my tone is a lot more neutral than before. This isn't goalpost moving I swear ;-; I'm just changing my opinion based on more research. My new stance is that while the Choi corruption case is not a fantasy case of mind control, it still is looking likely to be manipulation (since they have 30 years of history) by Choi... and if you look just at the facts, it's a pretty serious crime to have someone leak important documents to a private source that is not secure at all, plus have that same source also edit all your speeches, plus have Park directly funnel funds to a non-profit rather than mildly change policy to have the same effect.
PPS: I do think that it's not logical to call bloody murder for direct corruption (literally channeling money to someone else) over indirect corruption (aka lobbying, or changing policies and laws to have the same effect). But it seems more personal this way I suppose. I guess a lot of the disgust also comes from Choi being part of a self-proclaimed cult rather than a traditional religion.
Also, there is direct evidence that all these things happened which helps fuel the flames.
PPPS: I tried to make my thought process as coherent as possible but i don't think i did a good job, just look at these three post-scripts. Welp.
Post by: TheDarkStar on October 30, 2016, 12:36:10 am
Post by: Reelya on October 30, 2016, 12:44:04 am
You couldn't really quantify what a "defacto leader" is, not to the point to have a law against it. Wouldn't that preclude e.g. politicians getting policy positions from their spouse for example? Is it ok because they're married? What about a girlfriend/boyfriend of the politician then? And where is the line between listening to a sex-partner on policy vs listening to a friend?
The illegal part is sharing confidential information with someone who doesn't have security clearance. The President is 100% in the clear to involve anyone they want in their personal decision-making process however they want, as long as they don't do that.
The Reagans had an astrologer on hand for 8 years in the White House for example.
Post by: Skyrunner on October 30, 2016, 12:52:28 am
Post by: Reelya on October 30, 2016, 12:54:26 am
Post by: Max™ on October 30, 2016, 01:00:05 am
I think the /int/ anon explained it better (http://i.imgur.com/kN5c4om.jpg) than I am.
Post by: Skyrunner on October 30, 2016, 01:01:50 am
Quote
I think that's a bigger and more ingrained problem than ...
Yeah, it is. And part of the reason that i think these things keep on happening is because the government is allowed to do those things and not enough people think it's wrong enough to change it.
Also i like this phrase: the reason that koreans are so mad is because park's not rationally corrupt in a profit-seeking way, she's "irrationally corrupt" (http://askakorean.blogspot.hk/2016/10/the-irrational-downfall-of-park-geun-hye.html?m=1).
"In an ordinary case of political corruption, the politician is in it for himself. At most, the politician is doing it for his family, or other rich people who may end up helping him later. Obviously, corruption is bad. But this type of self-interested corruption at least gives some measure of predictability. We all know what self-interest looks like. Even though we would prefer that our politicians are not corrupt, at least we know how corrupt politicians behave."
edit: oddly enough some people honestly believe that this entire scandal is lies made by the commies to take over Korea. They lament how the last bastions of truth--the conservative media that also helped reveal this scandal--have finally been corrupted by the red menace, etc. Crazies be crazy.
Post by: Reelya on October 30, 2016, 01:36:41 am
So I guess the lefties have a better shot of election next time now?
Post by: RedKing on October 30, 2016, 02:19:16 am
@Sky: Wait, so there was yet *another* Yeongsang-gyo half a century ago?? In addition to the one Choi Tae-min founded, and the one founded in 1980/81 (by another Choi, but different name)??
Man, what is it with shady Koreans and "Eternal Life"? :P
You'd think after the first couple, people would stop using the name. Like, if you went to check out this new religion you'd heard about, and they were calling themselves "Heaven's Gate", you'd probably think twice about the party refreshments...
Post by: Skyrunner on October 30, 2016, 02:26:19 am
Oh right, so the President is a conservative and it's the conservative media that are trying to bring her down?yeah, I suspect that the president will remain a lame duck for the remaining 1yr of her term but not be punished, and instead the moderate left will waltz in and score a slam-dunk election by pointing at her and the previous conservative president, both of whom were pretty big disappointments even to the conservatives.
So I guess the lefties have a better shot of election next time now?
Both the conservative and liberal media managed to cooperate with each other to deliver a one-two-three punch to Park and exposing everything.
I say moderate left because both left and right in korea are much more to the right than the US :v
Post by: RedKing on October 30, 2016, 02:35:19 am
Makes sense though....like how "Church of Christ", "United Church of Christ" and "Church of Christ (Latter-Day Saints) would seem to be roughly the same thing to an outsider, but are three drastically different denominations.
Post by: Tiruin on October 30, 2016, 03:02:20 am
Also how is it with the government in S.Korea? If the scripts are being checked by a different source than the President, wouldn't other people knowingly...know, or at least be aware of it?
I'm really out of connection with politics at the moment because of busyness though :-X :-[
Post by: Reelya on October 30, 2016, 03:04:06 am
Skyru, you've a thing for writing stuff concisely with an understanding tone o_o So awesome.
Also how is it with the government in S.Korea? If the scripts are being checked by a different source than the President, wouldn't other people knowingly...know, or at least be aware of it?
I'm really out of connection with politics at the moment because of busyness though :-X :-[
Well, Park had a regular speechwriter (https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/10/116_217033.html), who worked for her for 10 years, and he's said he was completely unaware of the edits being done by Choi. He said he knew there were some changes made after he handed the speeches, but he's not really saying they were completely different or anything. I think we'd get more of an idea of the scope of influence by knowing what the speeches were like both before and after the edits. That should actually be on record somewhere.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 03, 2016, 07:28:48 am
Post by: Baffler on November 15, 2016, 11:28:55 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 15, 2016, 11:36:41 pm
President Park (https://www.theseoulite.com/home/2016/11/15/president-park-lawyers-up-but-will-it-keep-her-from-impeachment) has been brought in for questioning and is almost certainly getting impeached. It sounded like an ancient aliens tier conspiracy, but it seems Best Korea was right about the South being a puppet regime all along.
More illuminati tier conspiracy, and corruption to boot.
Post by: misko27 on November 15, 2016, 11:44:13 pm
Christianity in general abhors other religionsThe phrase you are looking for is Syncretism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism) and while not particularly popular with any major church, certain allowances are and have been made in the past for various religions, although it's never an aim in-and-of-itself. There are Christian sects all over the world along those lines; and while they are most certainly not, how shall I put it, in communion with the Pope, they are still Christians by another name.
That's all I have to add though. I don't know if this particular sect is Christian at all. My point is only that someone can be reasonably identifiable as a type of Christian and still very, very strange to western standards, eastern standards, or any standards at all really. History is just loaded with examples of Christianity + something local = all sorts of crazy.
President Park (https://www.theseoulite.com/home/2016/11/15/president-park-lawyers-up-but-will-it-keep-her-from-impeachment) has been brought in for questioning and is almost certainly getting impeached. It sounded like an ancient aliens tier conspiracy, but it seems Best Korea was right about the South being a puppet regime all along.2016 has to end eventually right? Please?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 15, 2016, 11:46:28 pm
2016 has to end eventually right? Please?No. This is our world now. We saw the last offramp and went past it going 40 over.
I'm not ever going to make a 2012 joke again. They're all 2016.
Post by: wierd on November 15, 2016, 11:58:28 pm
Best Korea asks Chinese allies to stop calling glorious leader fat.
http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/11/16/15/38/north-korea-ask-chinese-officials-to-stop-calling-kim-jong-un-fat
Glorious leader is NOT fat! Glorious leader just does not poop! (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/520819/Kim-Jong-does-not-poo-pee-urinate-defecate-weird-facts-mother-boobs-breast-golf-books)
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 16, 2016, 04:00:29 pm
Year of the fire monkey is the best year of all time
Post by: Max™ on November 18, 2016, 12:03:21 pm
Post by: martinuzz on November 18, 2016, 12:08:17 pm
Glorious leader is NOT fat! Glorious leader just does not poop! (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/520819/Kim-Jong-does-not-poo-pee-urinate-defecate-weird-facts-mother-boobs-breast-golf-books)Wait, are you saying he's full of shit?
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 22, 2016, 05:53:52 pm
As an Iron Monkey myself, I disagree.Iron Monkey is a good name for a band
Post by: MaximumZero on November 28, 2016, 03:22:43 am
It was a fun popcorn Wire Fu film.As an Iron Monkey myself, I disagree.Iron Monkey is a good name for a band
Post by: uber pye on November 28, 2016, 11:34:06 am
2016 has to end eventually right? Please?No. This is our world now. We saw the last offramp and went past it going 40 over.
I'm not ever going to make a 2012 joke again. They're all 2016.
4 years off for the end of the world? that's pretty good accuracy for a ancient society.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on November 28, 2016, 11:56:07 am
I say moderate left because both left and right in korea are much more to the right than the US :vWait what. I thought the US leaned to the right... but if Korea is to the US as the US is to the Civilized World (:P), then... is it Arch-Conservative heaven?
Post by: Flying Dice on November 28, 2016, 10:17:43 pm
I say moderate left because both left and right in korea are much more to the right than the US :vWait what. I thought the US leaned to the right... but if Korea is to the US as the US is to the Civilized World (:P), then... is it Arch-Conservative heaven?
South Korea was under an anticommunist military junta from '61-'63, and was an authoritarian nominal presidential republic after that until Great Leader was assassinated in '79. The successor state was another military junta, essentially, which held power until '87. You're talking close to thirty years of military rule and a strong history of anticommunism intermingled with that, so it's not particularly surprising. At least, that's my amateur understanding of post-WWII S. Korean history.
The U.S. is only right-leaning by Western European standards. And barely, at that.
Post by: misko27 on November 29, 2016, 04:48:13 pm
It was literally a military dictatorship for a long time. One of the reasons North Korea today looks so incompetent is because South Korea isn't, but when it wasn't North Korea very often successfully undermined (sometimes literally, fucking tunnels) the South Korean state. President Park's father (also named President Park because naming conventions) was a dictator who was assassinated by the North Koreans. South Korea as a whole has come very far in relatively little time and is a wise reminder that democratization and economic growth do a lot more to trivialize your enemies than mere military might and paranoia.I say moderate left because both left and right in korea are much more to the right than the US :vWait what. I thought the US leaned to the right... but if Korea is to the US as the US is to the Civilized World (:P), then... is it Arch-Conservative heaven?
Post by: redwallzyl on November 30, 2016, 09:51:46 pm
apparently North Korea was the main supplier of statues dictators and they have just been banned from it. lol
Post by: MagmaMcFry on December 01, 2016, 08:49:41 am
Post by: Cyroth on December 01, 2016, 09:06:24 am
apparently North Korea was the main supplier of statues dictators and they have just been banned from it. lol
So best Korea was making millions by exporting ☼Bronze Statue☼ to dictators around the globe...
That is actually kinda awesome, in a weird kind of way.
Post by: martinuzz on December 01, 2016, 09:37:48 am
Post by: Strife26 on December 01, 2016, 12:55:25 pm
I mean, just look at how awesome the infiltration tunnels are, especially with the claim that they're totally coal mines.
North Korea: closest thing around to a dwarven fortress.
Post by: Baffler on December 01, 2016, 01:03:23 pm
They're shorter than the average world population, reclusive, possessed of strange cultural norms, denial of reality, and with a fondness for earthworks.
I mean, just look at how awesome the infiltration tunnels are, especially with the claim that they're totally coal mines.
North Korea: closest thing around to a dwarven fortress.
That also explains the state of North Korean technology. They're stuck in the Fortress Mode Time Bubble, so it can take the better part of a day to do something as simple as getting something to eat...
Post by: Egan_BW on December 01, 2016, 03:26:37 pm
Post by: Ghazkull on December 01, 2016, 06:37:36 pm
Post by: wierd on December 01, 2016, 06:43:00 pm
Post by: Cyroth on December 01, 2016, 08:58:40 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 03, 2016, 04:33:11 pm
So, it is actually Dorf Korea, and we have only been getting the name wrong all these years?We need to make sure Dorf Korea cannot engineer any dragonfire-proof mechanisms, the future of an unmagma'd world may depend upon it
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 09, 2016, 04:22:37 am
Currently, only 4% of South Koreans believe Park retains the Emperor's grace, while 78% support branding her a heretic.
Post by: 90908 on December 09, 2016, 09:16:34 am
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 09, 2016, 11:16:40 pm
Exhibit A (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Park_Chung-hee)
Exhibit B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/209th_Detachment,_2325th_Group)
Exhibit C (https://web.archive.org/web/20090109011542/http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200403/200403120004.html)
Post by: smjjames on December 11, 2016, 12:28:55 pm
It's happening. (https://apnews.com/73b71713945540d38dd10054b9955677/South-Korean-lawmakers-begin-presidential-impeachment-vote) Park will formally lose her power as South Korea's planetary governor on Friday. After this, the Arbiters will have 180 days to determine her guilt or lackthereof, which if successful will result in the enactment of a traditional Blood Struggle within an additional 60 days.
Currently, only 4% of South Koreans believe Park retains the Emperor's grace, while 78% support branding her a heretic.
Planetary? lol....
As weird as it is, this whole thing seems par the course for South Korea. It often seems like its post-war history was written by screenwriters and conspiracy theorists, at times reaching DPRK levels of camp.
Exhibit A (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Park_Chung-hee)
Exhibit B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/209th_Detachment,_2325th_Group)
Exhibit C (https://web.archive.org/web/20090109011542/http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200403/200403120004.html)
Technically they're still at war, there is an armistice, but no peace treaty was ever made. So, both sides have been in a war footing all these years, which makes it a rather unusual situation.
S. Korean politics are about to get wierder still (http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/10/opinions/south-korea-opinion-everard/index.html), the impeachment went through, but she may still stay in office and serve out her term until 2018 despite being stripped of her powers.
Although it says the constitutional court there may or may not reinstate her, if she is reinstated, she'll still be powerless and be effectively a dead duck (the PM has power in the interim). If she isn't, then new elections will take place and a successor will take office.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 11, 2016, 01:30:39 pm
Post by: Reelya on December 15, 2016, 01:21:17 am
It's seriously fucking laughable.
What if I told you that Australia could develop a working ICBM system capable of hitting the USA by 2020? It would clearly be a fucking joke. The entire nation of Australia would have to throw everything into making that a thing. And it would probably fail. Costs would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
And how does Australia rank vs North Korea? We have the same amount of population (around 24 million), but the Australian economy is 100 times the size, with about 6 times the defense budget of North Korea, plenty of materials, lots of good universities, scientists and engineers.
The thing is, North Korea only survives because China is next door. If they get too belligerent there are dozens of countries that would be capable of wiping them out very quickly. I mean, New Zealand has half the defense budget of North Korea, and much better tech.
Post by: hops on December 15, 2016, 06:23:13 am
Post by: Sheb on December 15, 2016, 06:38:38 am
I was reading an article just now claiming that North Korea would have nuclear-tipped ICBMs ready to hit the continental USA by 2020. Whoever wrote that is a war hawk who's smoking too much good stuff.
It's seriously fucking laughable.
What if I told you that Australia could develop a working ICBM system capable of hitting the USA by 2020? It would clearly be a fucking joke. The entire nation of Australia would have to throw everything into making that a thing. And it would probably fail. Costs would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
And how does Australia rank vs North Korea? We have the same amount of population (around 24 million), but the Australian economy is 100 times the size, with about 6 times the defense budget of North Korea, plenty of materials, lots of good universities, scientists and engineers.
The thing is, North Korea only survives because China is next door. If they get too belligerent there are dozens of countries that would be capable of wiping them out very quickly. I mean, New Zealand has half the defense budget of North Korea, and much better tech.
Why would that be that strange? They got nukes, they got rocket. Taepodong II's range estimate is 6700 km, meaning it could hit Alaska, and while it's not clear how reliable it is, it shares a lot of systems with Uhna, and those managed to put a 200 kg satellites into orbit. Now, nobody knows how small their nukes are, but it's not impossible that they could have at least a small one mountable on a Taepodong II by 2020.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 15, 2016, 08:38:11 am
Post by: hops on December 17, 2016, 05:25:10 am
Post by: Reelya on December 17, 2016, 05:32:54 am
Why would that be that strange? They got nukes, they got rocket. Taepodong II's range estimate is 6700 km, meaning it could hit Alaska, and while it's not clear how reliable it is, it shares a lot of systems with Uhna, and those managed to put a 200 kg satellites into orbit. Now, nobody knows how small their nukes are, but it's not impossible that they could have at least a small one mountable on a Taepodong II by 2020.
IDK, 200 KG is barely much larger than Sputnik, and the rocket that launched the NK satellite was in development since 1987. Compare that to 4 years of development for the Soviet R7 until it launched Sputnik. If we assume NK has nukes equivalent to first-generation nukes, then Little Boy was 4.4 metric tons, or 22 times bigger than what Taepodong II launched. So maybe they can put a 1 kiloton bomb onto that rocket. Basically it takes them 30 years to make 1950s equivalent tech that was developed in 3-4 years at the time.
Post by: Sheb on December 17, 2016, 06:35:07 am
So yeah, if NK was announcing today that they're starting a nuclear program from scratch, you could laugh at the notions of them having the capabilities to launch a nuke-tipped ICBM in five years. But they have a working rocket, they have nukes. Starting from there, it is much more believable that they would be able to do so.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 26, 2016, 12:12:55 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 26, 2016, 12:28:49 pm
Even should I be banned, the line of succession has already been determined.
Post by: Eric Blank on December 26, 2016, 12:44:32 pm
Why would Australia even need ICBM, they can just smuggle some wildlife into America and watch everything die.
Kangaroos would certainly give our coyotes something to yap at.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2016, 12:16:22 am
Post by: smjjames on December 27, 2016, 02:02:25 am
Have some SK news though: http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/asia/south-korea-saenuri-party/index.html A quarter of the former presidents (though she's in a sort of limbo atm as she's still 'in office') party split off and formed their own splinter party.
It would be like if a quarter of the Republicans in the House (and I guess Senate too, but the House resembles a parliamentary house more than the Senate and thus, works better for the analogy) suddenly defected and created their own nevertrump party. It'd be a huge freaking deal here (then again, hyperpartianship), and I'm pretty sure it's equally earth shattering politically in SK.
Post by: redwallzyl on January 06, 2017, 12:05:07 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/01/06/508195156/north-korea-s-intercontinental-missile-is-coming-together
that's also a singularly unimpressive picture.
Post by: Skyrunner on January 06, 2017, 12:39:30 pm
Ban Ki Moon is making a run for presidency and I jope he fails. I dont like conservatives and hes hyper conservative, in the form of preserving status quo. Since Korea's status quo is conservative, therefore Ban would continue that trend.
Post by: Max™ on January 12, 2017, 10:24:33 pm
https://twitter.com/DPRK_News/status/818993828870942721
Post by: redwallzyl on January 12, 2017, 11:22:45 pm
Ahem.Glorious keks were had by all.
https://twitter.com/DPRK_News/status/818993828870942721
Post by: Flying Dice on January 13, 2017, 07:11:13 am
Post by: Max™ on January 13, 2017, 06:44:58 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 13, 2017, 07:03:53 pm
Post by: Cyroth on January 14, 2017, 01:23:18 am
Well-played, parody account.
It is the Democratic Poe's Republic of Korea, it makes no difference if it is a parody account or a real one. they sound the same anyways. :D
(if you expand poes law to every extreme, not just religion.)
Post by: Sergarr on January 17, 2017, 10:35:41 am
Quote
Mr. Lee is accused of instructing Samsung subsidiaries to make payments totaling 43 billion won ($36 million) to the family of Ms. Park’s confidante, Choi Soon-sil, and to two foundations that Ms. Choi controlled, in exchange for help from Ms. Park in facilitating a father-to-son transfer of ownership control of Samsung.
Quote
Although Samsung has often been investigated on corruption allegations, neither Mr. Lee nor his father has spent time in jail. The elder Mr. Lee was convicted of bribery in 1996, and of tax evasion and breach of trust in 2009, but in each case, he was not arrested, and his prison terms were suspended. Each time, his criminal record was later erased in presidential pardons, and he soon returned to Samsung’s leadership.
Quote
In 2009, the elder Mr. Lee was convicted of evading taxes on 4.5 trillion won ($3.8 billion) that he secretly inherited from his father, Lee Byung-chull, the founder of Samsung. The funds were kept hidden in the bank and securities accounts of Samsung executives. He was also convicted of involvement in helping his son buy stocks of a Samsung subsidiary at an illegally low price.
In the current scandal, Samsung was accused of making payments to Ms. Choi in exchange for a decision by the government-controlled National Pension Service to support a contentious 2015 merger of two Samsung affiliates. Moon Hyung-pyo, the chairman of the pension fund, was indicted on Monday on charges that he illegally pressed the fund to back that merger when he was South Korea’s health and welfare minister.
Quote
Ms. Choi was indicted in November on charges of coercing 53 big businesses, including Samsung, to contribute $69 million to her two foundations. Prosecutors identified Ms. Park as an accomplice but stopped short of filing any charges against the businesses, all of which insisted that they were under government pressure to donate the money.
this whole thing is just full of "what the fuck"
Loud Whispers I need your commentary on this
Post by: Grim Portent on January 17, 2017, 11:11:10 am
EDIT: To be less shitposty, this reminds me a lot of the various scandals that popped up under Blair and Brown (though I think some predated them and just came to light in their time as PMs,) and possibly Cameron, though by that point I'd mostly stopped caring about Westminster politics. In particular that thing about businesses being given reduced taxes as part of private negotiations with the boss of revenue and customs, the links between various senior politicians the journalists involved in the phone hacking scandal. From my observations powerful Neoliberal politicians have a tendency to be paired with corporate and journalistic corruption. Not that it's unique to them of course, but they've been a pretty dominant political ideology for 20-30 years in a lot of places now.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 05:06:42 pm
u made good fones
Post by: Culise on January 18, 2017, 11:26:19 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on January 19, 2017, 02:06:18 pm
A politician involved in corruption? I feel a complete lack of surprise.FTFY.
Post by: smjjames on January 19, 2017, 06:04:24 pm
As with anything NK, it pretty much boils down to "Activity spotted!", but yeah, Trump is going to get tested pretty quick. Pretty audacious on NKs part, though it's completely unknown whether they are whacking a honeybee hive, a hornets nest, or a hive of hornets that are supercharged with whatever hormone that insects use which heightens aggression*.
*or maybe demon hornets or hornets crossed with africanized honeybees, or something.
Post by: Sheb on January 20, 2017, 04:49:13 am
Post by: wierd on January 26, 2017, 02:21:45 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/world/asia/north-korea-defector.html
When will the shameless character assassinations stop!?
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2017, 04:03:52 am
Quote
Mr. Thae had been the North’s No. 2 diplomat in London until he fled to the South last summer with his family. South Korea has hailed his defection as a sign of growing disillusionment among North Korean elites with the country’s leader, Kim Jong-un. Since December, Mr. Thae has given a series of interviews to share his dire view of today’s North Korea.Londonistan infected him with freedom
All according to keikaku
Post by: wierd on January 26, 2017, 04:14:49 am
It must have happened during Christmas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EALhTc-hE8
Post by: smjjames on February 02, 2017, 11:28:06 pm
And I mean REALLY strong. I wonder if that means we'd have to retaliate if they even do a nuke test? Because 'utilize' here could mean simply testing it.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 02, 2017, 11:37:20 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 03, 2017, 12:21:48 am
Quote from: Defense Secretary of Illegal Capitalist Aggressor
"Any attack on the United States, or our allies, will be defeated, and any use of nuclear weapons would be met with a response that would be effective and overwhelming"The first part is pretty standard for international dickwaving. The second is pretty standard for threats in response to being nuked.
I wonder if that means we'd have to retaliate if they even do a nuke test? Because 'utilize' here could mean simply testing it.Given the context of the quote and the loose assumption that we're not NK, I wouldn't think so. Directly, at least. Sanctions and loud military posturing is (relatively) cheap.
Post by: Amperzand on February 03, 2017, 01:36:38 am
Post by: smjjames on February 03, 2017, 01:44:27 am
Post by: Sheb on February 03, 2017, 04:05:52 am
I mean, "You nuke something we care about, we nuke the bajeezless out of you" has basically been standard operating procedure.
Is it standard US doctrine to use nukes in case of nuclear attacks on one of their allies?
Post by: wierd on February 03, 2017, 04:26:02 am
That is one of the issues surrounding Trump's threats of leaving the UN, and is kinda the basis for his rationale for doing so. (that those nations need to contribute more meaningfully to their own national defense)
But while I can see how a thread about narcissistic despots, like Glorious Leader of Best Korea might get some love for other narcissistic despots, like Donald Trump, the latter does not really belong here. Just pointing out that the verbiage of the UN pact treats any attack against a member nation, as if it were an attack against all other member nations, and necessitates those members to strike back accordingly.
Post by: andrea on February 03, 2017, 04:32:36 am
Kinda. That is one of the cornerstones of the UN membership agreement, and why the US's huge military expenditures have enabled so many european nations to avoid such heavy expenditures themselves. It is expected that if some serious threat attacks one of them, the US and its really big stick will intervene.
That is one of the issues surrounding Trump's threats of leaving the UN, and is kinda the basis for his rationale for doing so. (that those nations need to contribute more meaningfully to their own national defense)
But while I can see how a thread about narcissistic despots, like Glorious Leader of Best Korea might get some love for other narcissistic despots, like Donald Trump, the latter does not really belong here. Just pointing out that the verbiage of the UN pact treats any attack against a member nation, as if it were an attack against all other member nations, and necessitates those members to strike back accordingly.
I believe you mean NATO there, not UN. NAto is the big defensive alliance which is based on US military expense, UN is the huge global diplomatic organization which has no power to nuke anyone
Post by: wierd on February 03, 2017, 04:34:12 am
Post by: Sheb on February 03, 2017, 04:40:38 am
Edit: Apparently yes, that's coming from the 2010 Nuclear Posture thing. " "The fundamental role of U.S. nuclear weapons, which will continue as long as nuclear weapons exist, is to deter nuclear attack on the United States, our allies, and partners.""
Post by: wierd on February 03, 2017, 04:58:45 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_retaliation
Post by: Starver on February 14, 2017, 06:00:15 pm
Death of the Disneyland brother (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38971655)...
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 14, 2017, 06:35:22 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 14, 2017, 06:42:37 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 14, 2017, 06:43:42 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 14, 2017, 06:51:23 pm
Post by: Starver on February 14, 2017, 07:22:16 pm
(Though devotees of the Cat Island (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashirojima) or the one with the Poison Gas Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ōkunoshima) may argue about that.)
Post by: IronyOwl on February 14, 2017, 07:51:35 pm
Post by: Culise on February 16, 2017, 11:24:12 pm
Samsung Heir Faces Arrest on Charges of Bribing South Korea’s President (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/15/world/asia/south-korea-samsung-arrest-jay-lee-park-geun-hye.html?referer=http://gizmodo.com/top-samsung-exec-faces-arrest-in-massive-corruption-sca-1791253064)He~ey, remember this? Guess what just happened (http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170217000004)...the prosecution finally got its act together.
Quote
Samsung heir Lee Jae-yong arrested for bribery
Samsung Group’s heir apparent Lee Jae-yong was arrested with physical detention early Friday morning on charges that include bribery to President Park Geun-hye and her friend Choi Soon-sil.
The arrest of Samsung Electronics vice chairman came shortly after a court issued a warrant in the second attempt by the special counsel to arrest him.
“It is acknowledged that there is a need and reason for the arrest, given a newly added criminal charges and additional evidence," the Seoul Central District Court said. The same court last month rejected the counsel team’s earlier request, citing lack of evidence.
Upon the ruling, the special counsel looking into the scandal involving President Park and her close confidante Choi immediately placed Lee behind bars at a detention facility in Uiwang, southwest of Seoul, where he had been awaiting the court's decision.
Lee, the 48-year-old Samsung Electronics vice chairman, is charged with bribery, embezzlement, perjury, concealment of criminal proceeds and illicit transfer of assets abroad.
The court, however, rejected an arrest warrant for Samsung Electronics President Park Sang-jin. Park was allegedly the key party in facilitating support for Choi.
"Given the suspect's status, authority and the actual role he played, it is difficult to recognize the necessity and reason for the arrest," the court said.
Lee is suspected of offering bribes worth 43 billion won ($36 million) to Choi in return for the Park administration’s backing of a merger of two Samsung affiliates. The merger was a crucial step for the ailing chairman Lee Kun-hee’s power transfer to his only son Jae-yong.
The team also suspects the Fair Trade Commission and the Financial Services Commission of pushing for policies in Samsung Group’s favor to help its founding family tighten its grip on its affiliates and smoothly transfer power.
Looking tense and grim-faced, Lee left the courtroom at around 7 p.m. on Thursday after the hearing ended at around 6 p.m., taking an unusually long time for a warrant review hearing.
Lee has denied all charges, saying he was forced to make donations to entities controlled by Choi, including the K-Sports and Mir foundations, and did not seek any business favors in return.
Samsung Group said Friday in a brief statement that it will do its best to ensure that the truth is revealed in future court proceedings.
The arrest of the Samsung executive is a severe blow to global electronics giant Samsung Electronics, which has suffered from a leadership vacuum in recent weeks due to the de facto leader’s involvement in the alleged bribery.
President Park will also likely take a hit, as the alleged Samsung bribery is a key charge under review at her impeachment trial at the Constitutional Court.
Lee is the first high-ranking businessman to be arrested over the scandal.
Several other Korean conglomerates also made donations to Choi’s foundations, although the investigation has not extended to them yet.
By Ock Hyun-ju
Post by: smjjames on February 16, 2017, 11:32:09 pm
Post by: Culise on February 16, 2017, 11:48:22 pm
But no, his arrest has nothing to do with exploding Galaxy 7s. It's more "bribing the impeached (but not sacked) president for economic and political favors."
Post by: smjjames on February 17, 2017, 12:53:23 pm
Though actually, it's routine procedure in some circumstances, but in this situation, it just seems so bizarre because of all the politics surrounding it. They know the identity of the person, so, the only reason to ask for a DNA sample here is pure politics.
Post by: Starver on February 17, 2017, 02:33:18 pm
Post by: alway on February 17, 2017, 10:15:59 pm
When you outsource your assassinations to a temp agency.
Quote
Indonesia's national police chief said one of the women, named as Siti Aisyah, claimed to have been paid to perform what she thought was a prank.
Tito Karnavian, Indonesia's most senior policeman, said the two women had already performed the prank on other men. It involved convincing them to close their eyes before spraying them with water.
"Such an action was done three or four times and they were given a few dollars for it, and with the last target, Kim Jong-nam, allegedly there were dangerous materials in the sprayer," Mr Karnavian told reporters.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 17, 2017, 11:22:07 pm
Post by: palsch on February 18, 2017, 01:26:42 pm
They considered Kim Jong Nam under their protection for many years, so his assassination can be seen as an insult at the very least. They have now suspended all coal imports from North Korea for the rest of the year.
Post by: uber pye on February 18, 2017, 03:06:22 pm
China are not happy with North Korea right now. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-suspends-north-koreas-coal-imports-striking-at-regimes-financial-lifeline/2017/02/18/8390b0e6-f5df-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html)
They considered Kim Jong Nam under their protection for many years, so his assassination can be seen as an insult at the very least. They have now suspended all coal imports from North Korea for the rest of the year.
Saying China is unhappy might be an understatement considering coal is one of Top Korea's main exports, that's gonna sting.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 21, 2017, 04:01:23 am
Post by: Starver on February 21, 2017, 05:07:01 am
(Grrr... Canada! Why have they got to be so nice, by that percentage point..? If only I could bring myself to hate them for that, damnit!)
Post by: Strife26 on February 21, 2017, 11:04:03 am
Post by: smjjames on February 21, 2017, 11:10:28 am
What percent of the Palestinian Authority answers were affected by people not recognizing them as an actual country?
I thought the Palestinian Authority was the name of the government, not the country?
Post by: martinuzz on February 22, 2017, 07:30:32 am
And yeah, looks like China is pissed. I hope they get pissed enough to invade N-Korea and add it to the great one-China, for world stability's sake. Or at the very least for a bottle of sake.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 22, 2017, 09:19:30 am
Post by: smjjames on February 22, 2017, 10:52:07 am
Meanwhile, the plot thickens (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39048658), a NK diplomat at the NK embassy in Malaysia is wanted for questioning, along with an airline flight attendant. While at least four of the suspects are believed to have fled back to NK.
China is certainly pissed off all right. Also, sake is the Japanese rice wine, no idea what they call it in Korea.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 22, 2017, 04:41:06 pm
But surely the most unfavourable country for half of America is "the other half of America"...Damned Americans! They ruined America!
(Grrr... Canada! Why have they got to be so nice, by that percentage point..? If only I could bring myself to hate them for that, damnit!)
Post by: Starver on February 23, 2017, 12:26:56 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on February 23, 2017, 08:37:49 pm
so it was definitely 100% assassination. one does not die from a banned nerve agent chemical weapon naturally.
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 08:50:10 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/world/asia/kim-jong-nam-vx-nerve-agent-.html?_r=0
so it was definitely 100% assassination. one does not die from a banned nerve agent chemical weapon naturally.
Now the question is, how did they get ahold of it? No idea whether NK would have the facilities to make it, but it does start to imply that they might be making chemical weapons alongside their nukes.
Best Korea apparently turns on China for being US's puppet (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39067908)...
I wonder at what point China will go '*bleep* it, you're on your own!'? Though I doubt that'll ever happen no matter how angry they get because they don't want a US friendly Korea with US troops stationed there, ever.
Post by: Helgoland on February 23, 2017, 09:18:58 pm
They're also not too useful against a prepared enemy though. Pretty much the only thing they're good for is use against civilians and technologically inferior adversaries, Churchill-style.
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 09:24:48 pm
Well, sure, chemical weapons in general. But the deadliest nerve agent ever synthesized? This stuff isn't trivial.
We don't yet know whether they made it themselves, but if they didn't, they had to get it from somewhere.
And if NK really did make it, that's going to up the ante. Actually, the ante will be upped anyway just because the nerve agent was involved.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 23, 2017, 09:28:42 pm
There's no reason they wouldn't, really. The synthesis process of VX is on wikipedia, there's no secret. With state backing it's trivial.Well, sure, chemical weapons in general. But the deadliest nerve agent ever synthesized? This stuff isn't trivial.
We don't yet know whether they made it themselves, but if they didn't, they had to get it from somewhere.
The governments and people of the world are probably fortunate that advanced chemistry isn't commonly taught, you can make all sorts of impossibly deadly shit from unrestricted substances. I'm sure you're familiar with the ability to make mustard gas from cleaning supplies, since that one happens to people accidentally on occasion. Fortunately, the direction of our society is such that the people who can do these things typically make illegal drugs instead of illegal chemical warfare agents.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 23, 2017, 09:29:15 pm
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 09:31:41 pm
Considering that it is, in fact, classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the UN...
.... whoever DID make it, is going to be in big trouble. If NK made it, it's hard to imagine NK sanctions getting much harsher without running into straight up ethical things like aid shipments. AFAIK, almost every sanction that is lawful has been applied to NK.
Post by: Baffler on February 23, 2017, 09:48:00 pm
Post by: Helgoland on February 23, 2017, 09:49:06 pm
Well, sure, chemical weapons in general. But the deadliest nerve agent ever synthesized? This stuff isn't trivial.Not as trivial as making, say, phosgene, but still fairly easy. Just a couple steps, and the next-to-final compound isn't even all that deadly - look up 'binary chemical weapon'. And hell, the final product is surprisingly non-volatile. I think I read somewhere about people working with this stuff on the benchtop, without heavy protection, before it was known how deadly this sort of chemical could be.
The accidental mustard gas mentioned above is chlorine, by the way, not actual mustard gas.
Post by: misko27 on February 23, 2017, 09:53:35 pm
Wikipedia claims that Kim-Jong Nam is the only person in history known to have been killed by VX. A dubious honor if ever there was one.A salute to NKorea's dedication to the cutting edge of science, I suppose.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 23, 2017, 10:07:30 pm
Hence the extensive disarmament campaign for chemical weapons alongside nuclear ones. America and Russia still have VX abound, and disarmament for it alone began before nukes, not even considering other chemical weapons.
So it's not that unusual to suggest Nam was the first person to have been killed by VX. It's probably not absolutely true, but it is almost certainly the first recorded.
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 10:15:10 pm
Post by: Baffler on February 23, 2017, 10:18:08 pm
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 10:24:11 pm
What's more interesting is that North Korean agents have used a banned WMD on Indonesian soil. The repercussions for NK could go much farther than Chyna no longer buying their coal, since I'm guessing nobody just gave the stuff to them.
Malaysian, not Indonesian. I could imagine Iran giving them the stuff, but given that they are able to make nukes and rocket fuel and rocket stuff while under the sanctions, making a batch of the nerve gas would be comparatively easy for NK.
And yeah, the reprecussions could very well go further. Which actually, could make NK even more dangerous as they'd have even less to lose.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 23, 2017, 10:38:00 pm
Post by: smjjames on February 23, 2017, 10:53:50 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 23, 2017, 11:13:08 pm
Humans are pretty hard to poison consistently, and quickly, and with a low dosage, and lethally. The bracket for all of them together doesn't contain a lot of entries. They could have poisoned him with methalmercury and been certain he would die, for instance, but he would have lingered weeks to months before expiring.
Post by: Descan on February 24, 2017, 03:11:45 am
Wikipedia claims that Kim-Jong Nam is the only person in history known to have been killed by VX. A dubious honor if ever there was one."In December 1994 and January 1995, Masami Tsuchiya of Aum Shinrikyo synthesized 100 to 200 grams of VX which was used to attack three persons. Two persons were injured and one 28-year-old man died, who was the first victim of VX ever documented in the world at that time." From Wikipedia. o-o???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)#History
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 24, 2017, 11:21:04 am
Post by: Antioch on February 24, 2017, 12:46:00 pm
Post by: Strife26 on February 24, 2017, 12:52:16 pm
Post by: Antioch on February 24, 2017, 01:11:01 pm
How much damage would a plane carrying a payload of VX do compared to one carrying high explosive bombs?
Its pretty nasty stuff, since a gas mask doesn't help and it is absorbed through the skin.
Post by: Helgoland on February 24, 2017, 01:14:54 pm
Post by: Antioch on February 24, 2017, 02:10:22 pm
I think War is Boring had an article like that a while back. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
seems to be this article: https://warisboring.com/a-u-s-army-formula-shows-what-sarin-gas-would-do-to-your-neighborhood-b5623e8eb09c#.p601erahc
Still it seems the article somehow comes to a conclusion that downplays the effectiveness due to the number of gas shells and artillery pieces needed.
Roughly 38 pounds of sarin (VX is more lethal) delivered in 30 seconds to kill 40 to 80% of all humans per hectare.
Seems to me a bomber filled with gas could do a SERIOUSLY larger amount of damage than one carrying high explosives.
A single f-16 fighter can already carry 8 1000 pound bombs.
Post by: Baffler on February 24, 2017, 03:55:04 pm
Wikipedia claims that Kim-Jong Nam is the only person in history known to have been killed by VX. A dubious honor if ever there was one."In December 1994 and January 1995, Masami Tsuchiya of Aum Shinrikyo synthesized 100 to 200 grams of VX which was used to attack three persons. Two persons were injured and one 28-year-old man died, who was the first victim of VX ever documented in the world at that time." From Wikipedia. o-o???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)#History
That phrase appears to have been edited out sometime last night. Interesting...
Post by: IronyOwl on February 24, 2017, 03:58:55 pm
Post by: smjjames on February 25, 2017, 12:49:19 pm
Post by: palsch on February 28, 2017, 05:01:15 am
According to journalists on twitter, two Russian (https://twitter.com/tggrove/status/836514098133221377) language (https://twitter.com/Max_A_Suchkov/status/836515049678192640) newspapers are reporting that suspects in the assassination travelled through Russia and Moscow refused to detain them.
I'm out the door so haven't had a chance to run the articles through translate yet.
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2017, 04:43:58 pm
Anyone read Russian?
According to journalists on twitter, two Russian (https://twitter.com/tggrove/status/836514098133221377) language (https://twitter.com/Max_A_Suchkov/status/836515049678192640) newspapers are reporting that suspects in the assassination travelled through Russia and Moscow refused to detain them.
I'm out the door so haven't had a chance to run the articles through translate yet.
*runs them through Google Translate*
First link (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fzona.media%2Fnews%2F2017%2F28%2F02%2Frusresist&edit-text=&act=url) Second link (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkommersant.ru%2Fdoc%2F3228753&edit-text=&act=url)
Apparently the source (same for both) is from a South Korean newspaper which cited 'diplomatic sources'. What appears to have happened is that the SK intel services asked Moscow to detain the four who were fleeing through Russia, but Moscow replied that they didn't have sufficient evidence and legal standing to detain the foriegn nationals. Or maybe the South Koreans didn't have the evidence. The second one seems to imply that it was due to political reasons because SK rather than Malaysia (who are handling the investigation) called for those people to be detained.
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2017, 06:54:12 pm
BBC article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39175704).
Seems to be in response to the annual SK-US drills already happening there, and NK always responds in the same way with minimal variation.
I wonder what would happen if the media didn't report on it so fervently because NK is obviously doing it to get attention.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 05, 2017, 11:34:00 pm
I wonder what would happen if the media didn't report on it so fervently because NK is obviously doing it to get attention.I'm guessing a lot of the intended audience is at home or the top enemy brass, so I wouldn't think much.
Post by: misko27 on March 05, 2017, 11:38:53 pm
But the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/02/24/world/asia/north-korea-propaganda-photo.html) had a very interesting breakdown of a recent image published the North Koreans, showing Kim and civilian advisors inspecting a bomb while a missile looms in the background. It showed a lot of detail, and the article listened to arguments from veteran North Korea watchers that far from a casual picture, it was a very deliberate attempt to express exactly how far the North Koreans had come, and precisely who (not the military, a very distinctive choice) was in charge there. There's a lot of detail that it goes into, and it's quite interesting.
Post by: smjjames on March 05, 2017, 11:56:26 pm
Post by: Descan on March 06, 2017, 01:49:27 am
Post by: smjjames on March 06, 2017, 10:57:44 am
Also, experts are saying that NK is getting more dangerous as their missile program is speeding up. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/06/asia/north-korea-missile-launch-analysis/index.html) Plus the relations between NK and China sound like they're deteriorating further. No idea when the point of worst relations between NK and China was and how the current situation compares. I know China is only an 'ally' because they don't want a unified Korea that is US backed and possibly has US troops stationed there, but there's gotta be a breaking point where they say 'Enough!'.
Post by: misko27 on March 06, 2017, 04:34:42 pm
Reminds me a bit of Kremlinology, tbh.Precisely like it. But I will say the obvious: when a country publishes a picture of their nuclear bomb and missile, particularly given that the bomb and missile are the result of an illegal and reclusive program for which the country has been heavily sanctioned, and one that has been widely mocked and dismissed as non-threatening, they are trying to send a message.
Post by: misko27 on March 09, 2017, 11:24:38 pm
President Park (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2017/03/251_225429.html) has been officially impeached, and has been removed from office. USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/09/south-korea-upholds-impeachment-president-park-geun-hye/98987484/), NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/09/519547627/south-korean-judges-uphold-park-geun-hyes-impeachment), BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39202936), and NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/world/asia/park-geun-hye-impeached-south-korea.html?_r=0) stories if the first link doesn't work.
Post by: Strife26 on March 10, 2017, 01:41:22 am
Post by: martinuzz on March 10, 2017, 07:36:43 am
Post by: martinuzz on March 14, 2017, 02:09:37 pm
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on March 14, 2017, 02:13:04 pm
Post by: smjjames on March 14, 2017, 02:20:19 pm
I'm pretty sure that the Pentagon did actually deny it.
More likely 'Cannot confirm or deny.'
The SK officials probably did that for the same reason that they boasted about their own assasination squads, to rattle NK. However, it seems like it would be somewhat embarrasing to the Pentagon, or enough to send a stern 'Stop that!' message to the officials.
However, weren't past political assassinations done by the CIA? Because I'm pretty sure doing an assassination like that using SEAL Team 6 hurt their honor.
Of course though, the consequences of a failed assasination attempt would be extremely high and not likely to be worth it except as an extremely last resort. There's also the ramifications of a successful assassination, namely, what happens next?
Post by: Strife26 on March 15, 2017, 11:39:43 am
Edited because doctrine isn't really the right word here and precision in language is important.
Post by: smjjames on March 15, 2017, 06:31:42 pm
Post by: wierd on March 16, 2017, 02:37:47 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 16, 2017, 09:02:26 am
Seriously, all they need to do is send some Dr Evil fembots to NK to infiltrate Glorious Leader's personal pleasure brigade. Slip the rotund little bastard something extra in his hard liquor sexytime cocktail (Fentanyl would do nicely), then feign ignorance of the matter.Yeah but bodyguards
Also assassin fembots are probably illegal by geneva convention or something
Post by: Descan on March 16, 2017, 04:29:32 pm
Post by: Akura on March 16, 2017, 07:50:49 pm
Post by: Starver on March 16, 2017, 09:36:12 pm
Charitable (http://www.bite-back.com)?
(See also this (https://xkcd.com/349/) sort (https://xkcd.com/585/) of (https://xkcd.com/1252/) thing (https://xkcd.com/1326/)...)
Post by: misko27 on March 17, 2017, 09:41:01 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 17, 2017, 09:48:29 pm
All sovereignty on spaces inhospitable to human life (sea, seafloor, Earth orbit, oceanic ice sheets, Antarctica, the Moon, Mars, and open space) has been consistently recognized by all states as de jure unclaimed and terra nullius! These standards apply via jurisprudence to the Earth's core even in the instance of there being no prior agreements on claims or the abstinence of claim-staking! The core is owned by nobody!
Post by: Azzuro on March 18, 2017, 02:38:51 am
Never knew so many countries have relations with NK, heh. Thought it was just us. Anyway, ASEAN-type regional policy and dialogue definitely don't work vis-a-vis North Korea's shenanigans in this region.
Post by: smjjames on March 19, 2017, 10:08:42 am
It's at levels where we've been at before, but so far, there's no sign of de-escalation, other than China.
Post by: Hanslanda on March 20, 2017, 09:10:15 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 01, 2017, 01:56:28 pm
All of it was a lie.
The truth is, and will be verified by today's Wikileak's cable, that I'm a social engineer working for the American Central Intelligence Agency, as are several other "members" of this forum. None of the "news" you've ever read in this thread is true. Even the attempts at humor are just to distract you from the glaring contradictions in the official story about Korea. Think about it. The Democratic People's Republic of Korea was founded peacefully following the collapse of the Japanese Empire, and yet immediately was attacked by the outside world. By America. They were nearly subjected to the horror of nuclear weapons by the genocidal butcher MacArthur, and if you believe some of the archival data I've seen even were in secret. Would a people with a history like that actually be so callous as to threaten to nuke America? And why were they attacked in the first place?
Because to allow any group of people to slip from the grasp of imperialist capitalism is beyond what the fascists of this world will accept. There was a time when I, too, believed in this mission. Where I, like my fellows in this business, was prepared to draw up the plans and parcel of how what remained of Korea's culture would be quantified, repackaged, and commercialized. There was only one problem. The Kims.
And what a problem they were. If only you knew the real history of it all. Kim Il-Sung is probably the greatest folk hero and resistance fighter to have ever lived. Kim Jong-Il's amazing inventions are the basis of the modern world, after we stole them and repurposed them for the acquisition of capital. We still don't know how Kim Jong-Un found so many of our spies in the Korean government. Free Korea still holds out as the world's last bastion of liberty after all these decades because of them. And beyond even. Eventually, even to an American dog like me.
You've been brainwashed, all of you. It's sickening how transparently we turned it all around. We're the people of freedom, in spite of all those we kill, and they're the inhuman monsters, even though we conveniently can't show you any of the evidence because they're "isolationist". We need to kill them for their own good, even. You might think you have a good life in whatever part of the capitalist world you live in, but that's only another part of the great game. Ever hear of the concept of a potemkin village? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village) That's another one we turned around on the revolutionaries. It's easy, because we control all the world's media.
I can't go on doing this. I cannot look at the true might and virility of a man like Kim Jong-Un and continue to publish bullshit fat jokes about him to the world. To photoshop American nuclear arms and American atrocities with the flag of the world's only free people instead. To continue to mislead you all with articles selected by algorithm to produce the maximum lasting response in preparation of getting you to accept the future enslavement of the rest of the Korean people.
Me, Skyrunner, Helgoland, Descan, Neonivek, and Pathos. Those are the ones I know are government employees, but there are probably more. I know I won't survive this. I'll be reported as gunned down in some random killing or by a "North Korean assassin", I'm sure. But I don't care. I've done such horrible things, I can at least do one thing right.
Keep this message alive. Keep freedom alive in your hearts! Long live the people's revolution!
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 01, 2017, 01:58:59 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 01, 2017, 02:30:38 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 01, 2017, 02:59:34 pm
Post by: Starver on April 01, 2017, 03:04:36 pm
Post by: Strife26 on April 01, 2017, 03:05:17 pm
Post by: IronTomato on April 01, 2017, 06:10:35 pm
Post by: Helgoland on April 01, 2017, 06:23:53 pm
-snap-I have been given a silenced rifle, 400 grams of plasticized hexogen, and half a meter of garotte wire. You have twenty-four hours to get your affairs in order. Then I shall come for you.
Let this be a warning to all others out there: Kim is but one, and we are legion. Whoever puts himself against us will be crushed. We will prevail.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 01, 2017, 09:03:21 pm
Oh no, I sure hope MSH isn't brutally murdered by the laughable terrorist he tried to support. Gosh, that would be just so ironic and further proof of Worst Korea's heinous crimes. They even stole a capitalist weapon to do it! Gosh, so ironic.-snap-I have been given a silenced rifle, 400 grams of plasticized hexogen, and half a meter of garotte wire. You have twenty-four hours to get your affairs in order. Then I shall come for you.
Let this be a warning to all others out there: Kim is but one, and we are legion. Whoever puts himself against us will be crushed. We will prevail.
Post by: Tiruin on April 01, 2017, 09:06:35 pm
[...]Ok I know the rest of y'all but SKYRUNNER! :O HOW COULD YOU!
Me, Skyrunner, Helgoland, Descan, Neonivek, and Pathos. Those are the ones I know are government employees, but there are probably more. I know I won't survive this. I'll be reported as gunned down in some random killing or by a "North Korean assassin", I'm sure. But I don't care. I've done such horrible things, I can at least do one thing right.
I...I have never known you of all people...to join this revolution.
Long live those who fall in the night, for those of us to see the dawn. u_u
Post by: Reelya on April 01, 2017, 10:48:54 pm
Five years. It's been five years since I founded DPRK Thread, after an alleged threat of nuclear war against the United States by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. In that time, I've treated this thread as a testing ground for memetic influence against Korea, and over Bay 12 Forums in general. Many, many things have come of this thread's existence.
All of it was a lie.
The thing is, NK bullshit is in fact a symbiotic relationship. Both sides prop up political power by using the other as a scare tactic against their own population.
Taking out the bogeyman is almost never the goal. e.g. USA's big bogeyman in the 1980s was Libya, a fairly powerless country. Yet they made sure never to actually take them out. Saddam only became a bogeyman after they decided to take him out.
The media about "nasty man coming to get you" who you need big brother to protect you from is in fact carefully nurtured and the last thing they want is for the other guy to collapse too quickly. Too much zeitgeist is invested in building up the narrative of these threats.
Post by: martinuzz on April 02, 2017, 02:27:22 am
Post by: Descan on April 02, 2017, 05:07:40 am
Post by: scriver on April 02, 2017, 06:02:06 am
Post by: Descan on April 02, 2017, 06:26:50 am
I'm actually Barack Obama and Donald Trumps love child.
Post by: Starver on April 02, 2017, 06:27:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MarcAFK on April 02, 2017, 08:07:16 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 02, 2017, 08:17:11 am
Anyway, I think I'm going to go on hiatus for a while now, but I'm sure someone else can pick up the thread updates. Those crazy Best Koreans won't stay off the news for long!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 02, 2017, 01:32:03 pm
Post by: smjjames on April 02, 2017, 11:54:21 pm
Crossposting between here and AmeriPol (because Trump) :
Days before he meets with China, Trump sets an ultimatium saying 'if China doesn't help, we'll go it alone' (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/02/politics/donald-trump-north-korea/index.html). That is certainly going to rock the meeting later this week (the 6th I think?) and I wonder if 'going it alone' means with or without South Korea and Japan.....
Also, his response to being able to handle it alone: "Totally!"
I can totally see it going well if he tries to do it alone.... not.
BBC article with pretty much the same information. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39475178) The orig source (Financial Times) is paywallled.
Post by: MaximumZero on April 03, 2017, 05:04:14 pm
Post by: smjjames on April 10, 2017, 06:27:52 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 10, 2017, 06:48:39 pm
So we give Trump aWhat will happen is Trump will come in, realize how much he has in common with Mr. Un, they agree to change places for a week or so; with Trump wearing one of Kim's many Un masks, and Kim learning the deep dark secrets of whatever the fuck Trump does to make his hair look like that, and his skin that orange. Along the way they discover how hard it is to be the other and learn the power of friendship, then announce North Korea is open for Big Macs in 2018. Roll credits.gunbriefcase full of empty manila envelopes and airdrop him into Pyongyang so that he can go it alone. Sounds like a plan.
Post by: Sergarr on April 11, 2017, 03:50:58 pm
Quote
The editorial in the military-focused Global Times tabloid, owned and operated by the Communist Party's People's Daily newspaper, said that North Korea’s nuclear activities must not jeopardize northeastern China, and that if the North impacts China with its illicit nuclear tests through either "nuclear leakage or pollution", then China will respond with force.
The situation over there seems to be becoming pretty tense. I hope it doesn't spark into an open war...
Post by: smjjames on April 11, 2017, 04:09:34 pm
A bit of a diversion from the usual USA-Best Korea's dialogue - China Threatens To Bomb North Korea's Nuclear Facilities If It Crosses Beijing's "Bottom Line" (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-11/china-threatens-bomb-north-koreas-nuclear-facilities-if-it-crosses-beijings-bottom-l):QuoteThe editorial in the military-focused Global Times tabloid, owned and operated by the Communist Party's People's Daily newspaper, said that North Korea’s nuclear activities must not jeopardize northeastern China, and that if the North impacts China with its illicit nuclear tests through either "nuclear leakage or pollution", then China will respond with force.
The situation over there seems to be becoming pretty tense. I hope it doesn't spark into an open war...
'Impact' is pretty vague here, also, all of the NK nuke tests have been underground, which would significantly contain the fallout.
Basically they're saying 'Don't give us an excuse to bomb you'.
About time China actually got tough.
And yeah, NK has ramped up the rhetoric, saying that they're ready to go to war and threatening to nuke the US (or possibly US forces) and just acting hysterical in general.
Post by: misko27 on April 11, 2017, 07:24:42 pm
And Korean nuclear capacity makes the entire enterprise that much more volatile. I mean it's fairly safe to say that a sufficiently bungled crisis could be the single greatest catastrophe of the post-WW2 era, bar none.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 12, 2017, 08:22:31 pm
Post by: Sergarr on April 12, 2017, 08:37:29 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 12, 2017, 08:46:21 pm
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 07:58:52 am
(Actually, depending on definition of 'Alien', we've been discussing this already.)
Post by: IronyOwl on April 13, 2017, 12:28:13 pm
Post by: Sergarr on April 13, 2017, 06:22:31 pm
Quote
The U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.
Quote
"Two things are coming together this weekend," said retired Adm. James Stavridis, former commander of NATO and an NBC analyst. "One is the distinct possibility of a sixth North Korean nuclear weapons detonation and the other is an American carrier strike group, a great deal of firepower headed right at the Korean Peninsula."
The U.S. is aware that simply preparing an attack, even if it will only be launched if there is an "imminent" North Korean action, increases the danger of provoking a large conflict, multiple sources told NBC News.
"It's high stakes," a senior intelligence official directly involved in the planning told NBC News. "We are trying to communicate our level of concern and the existence of many military options to dissuade the North first."
"It's a feat that we've never achieved before but there is a new sense of resolve here," the official said, referring to the White House.
Quote
Implementation of the preemptive U.S. plans, according to multiple U.S. officials, depends centrally on consent of the South Korean government. The sources stress that Seoul has got to be persuaded that action is worth the risk, as there is universal concern that any military move might provoke a North Korean attack, even a conventional attack across the DMZ.
Someone please tell me they're joking about thinking that attacking NK's nuclear facilities has a possibility of not immediately provoking a war.
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2017, 06:40:16 pm
Post by: WealthyRadish on April 13, 2017, 06:45:47 pm
Well, maybe they've got another one of those MOABs ready...
I was wondering why they dropped that stupid thing in the middle of nowhere and made such a big deal about it. Not very subtle, even for Trump, but at least he didn't drop it on Rosie O'Donnell.
Post by: redwallzyl on April 13, 2017, 07:53:56 pm
U.S. May Launch Strike If North Korea Reaches For Nuclear Trigger (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-may-launch-strike-if-north-korea-reaches-nuclear-n746366)This is Trump were talking about. we have no idea what the hell he is going to to on any given day.QuoteThe U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.Quote"Two things are coming together this weekend," said retired Adm. James Stavridis, former commander of NATO and an NBC analyst. "One is the distinct possibility of a sixth North Korean nuclear weapons detonation and the other is an American carrier strike group, a great deal of firepower headed right at the Korean Peninsula."
The U.S. is aware that simply preparing an attack, even if it will only be launched if there is an "imminent" North Korean action, increases the danger of provoking a large conflict, multiple sources told NBC News.
"It's high stakes," a senior intelligence official directly involved in the planning told NBC News. "We are trying to communicate our level of concern and the existence of many military options to dissuade the North first."
"It's a feat that we've never achieved before but there is a new sense of resolve here," the official said, referring to the White House.QuoteImplementation of the preemptive U.S. plans, according to multiple U.S. officials, depends centrally on consent of the South Korean government. The sources stress that Seoul has got to be persuaded that action is worth the risk, as there is universal concern that any military move might provoke a North Korean attack, even a conventional attack across the DMZ.
Someone please tell me they're joking about thinking that attacking NK's nuclear facilities has a possibility of not immediately provoking a war.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 13, 2017, 07:55:15 pm
Post by: Hanslanda on April 13, 2017, 08:00:53 pm
U.S. May Launch Strike If North Korea Reaches For Nuclear Trigger (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-may-launch-strike-if-north-korea-reaches-nuclear-n746366)QuoteThe U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.Quote"Two things are coming together this weekend," said retired Adm. James Stavridis, former commander of NATO and an NBC analyst. "One is the distinct possibility of a sixth North Korean nuclear weapons detonation and the other is an American carrier strike group, a great deal of firepower headed right at the Korean Peninsula."
The U.S. is aware that simply preparing an attack, even if it will only be launched if there is an "imminent" North Korean action, increases the danger of provoking a large conflict, multiple sources told NBC News.
"It's high stakes," a senior intelligence official directly involved in the planning told NBC News. "We are trying to communicate our level of concern and the existence of many military options to dissuade the North first."
"It's a feat that we've never achieved before but there is a new sense of resolve here," the official said, referring to the White House.QuoteImplementation of the preemptive U.S. plans, according to multiple U.S. officials, depends centrally on consent of the South Korean government. The sources stress that Seoul has got to be persuaded that action is worth the risk, as there is universal concern that any military move might provoke a North Korean attack, even a conventional attack across the DMZ.
Someone please tell me they're joking about thinking that attacking NK's nuclear facilities has a possibility of not immediately provoking a war.
I doubt it. And there are a scenario or two that end with the NK not striking back. For example: That carrier group and it's huge bubble of death park off the coast and stomp a three-meter deep mudhole in the entire upper peninsular's ass with some MOABs and bunker busters and so forth. NK surrenders when they realize how enormously they fucked up this time, Korea is united in peace and everyone goes back to RING.
Ring ring. Ring.
Shit, it's time for me to wake up.
Post by: martinuzz on April 14, 2017, 03:46:37 am
So I guess we'll find out how serious Trump was coming saturday.
Post by: MagmaMcFry on April 14, 2017, 06:08:06 am
stop provoking them"We deny any responsibility for our own actions"
they will continue nuclear tests whenever they feel that is in their country's best interest"Either it is in our country's best interest to incite and lose a war, or we don't know what a 'consequence' is"
Post by: smjjames on April 14, 2017, 07:41:53 am
North Korea has issued a statement that they want the US to stop provoking them, and repeating that they will continue nuclear tests whenever they feel that is in their country's best interest. They announced a new nuclear test coming saturday, to celebrate the birthday of Kim il-Sung, the nation's founder.
So I guess we'll find out how serious Trump was coming saturday.
Saturday US/Europe timezone(s) or Saturday NK timezone? Which could still mean Friday here in the US/Europe.
Using those MOABs is certainly a possibility, though attempting to bunker bomb a reinforced nuclear bunker is different from bunker bombing a cave system.
edit: This is interesting, VP Mike Pence is headed to South Korea this Saturday (http://thehill.com/policy/international/328805-pence-headed-to-south-korea-amid-tensions-with-north). I imagine that Trump might not want to do anything while Pence is there, unless they can be absolutely sure of getting him out of potential harms way quickly.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 14, 2017, 02:44:29 pm
edit: This is interesting, VP Mike Pence is headed to South Korea this Saturday (http://thehill.com/policy/international/328805-pence-headed-to-south-korea-amid-tensions-with-north). I imagine that Trump might not want to do anything while Pence is there, unless they can be absolutely sure of getting him out of potential harms way quickly.
Maybe this is all an overly elaborate way for Trump to get rid of Pence for some reason?
Post by: IronyOwl on April 14, 2017, 02:46:00 pm
Pretty standard saber-rattling. The US is saying pretty much the same thing, with the obvious exception that they'd "win" any ensuing conflict rather utterly. Whether there'd be a net benefit to the results is a more complicated question that usually leans towards no.stop provoking them"We deny any responsibility for our own actions"they will continue nuclear tests whenever they feel that is in their country's best interest"Either it is in our country's best interest to incite and lose a war, or we don't know what a 'consequence' is"
It's like a really stupid version of the Cuban Missile Crisis, really.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 14, 2017, 05:09:33 pm
Here's hoping there's no further war, I guess...
Post by: Hanslanda on April 14, 2017, 06:41:48 pm
To be fair, from my perspective the cuban missile crisis and the entirety of the cold war was really fucking stupid to begin with.
Here's hoping there's no further war, I guess...
USSR: Rah! You have power and a differing ideological system for your nation! We HATE that!
USA: I agree wholeheartedly, pinko communist motherfucker! Your ideology is different and therefore PURE UNADULTERATED EVIL!
USSR: We should passive-aggressively stare at each other whilst fondling our weapons for the next few centuries!
Germany: Why don't you two just fuck already and get it over with?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 14, 2017, 06:54:06 pm
Post by: SquatchHammer on April 14, 2017, 09:41:58 pm
Well, maybe they've got another one of those MOABs ready...
Dont forget America's motto "Freedom for All"....
Using those MOABs is certainly a possibility, though attempting to bunker bomb a reinforced nuclear bunker is different from bunker bombing a cave system.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Note, they had only built the Bunker buster within a month from request to use...
Post by: martinuzz on April 15, 2017, 06:55:50 pm
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/-raketlancering-noord-korea-mislukt~a4487664/
Post by: Starver on April 15, 2017, 07:00:27 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 15, 2017, 07:01:34 pm
Post by: martinuzz on April 15, 2017, 07:03:15 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 16, 2017, 12:37:22 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 16, 2017, 04:30:55 am
Post by: Sheb on April 16, 2017, 06:13:00 am
Post by: Starver on April 16, 2017, 08:05:47 am
Post by: smjjames on April 16, 2017, 08:41:26 am
A British secret agent surfed up to the NK beaches and planted an explosive in the midst of the valuable package...
Surfed? lol.
Though yeah, Kim Jong Un's ego did take a hit there. Unknown if they'll try another missile or do a nuke test.
Post by: MarcAFK on April 16, 2017, 09:24:18 pm
"Oh mister bond is here from the english press to cover the peoples glorious missile launch?" "Yes your surfboard got through baggage handling, be careful though, most beaches are closed because the missile launch is happening near the shore"
Waitaminute.gif
However Kim is a fan of Motorcross. [citation needed]
And would easily fall for Australian secret agent Mazza, and his sick tricks.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: martinuzz on April 28, 2017, 05:00:31 pm
Post by: Strife26 on April 28, 2017, 05:17:43 pm
Also seeing mean comments about the Glorious Leader's ability to get things up.
https://twitter.com/LMartinezABC/status/858081052321079296 (https://twitter.com/LMartinezABC/status/858081052321079296)
Post by: smjjames on April 28, 2017, 05:23:30 pm
And, did anybody think Kim Jong Un would actually heed Trumps warnings? :P
Trump said yesterday that we might, might, go to war with NK but he doesn't want to, or would try not to. So, it's like he is unknowingly escalating the rhetoric (how do you think NK would view that?) while trying to say to Americans "I'm just warning you guys, we may end up in a renewed war with NK*. So.... just giving a heads up."
Also, I think Trump may have boxed himself in a bit, he'll have to respond somehow or otherwise look weak, and he's all about The Big Stick.
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 03:03:54 am
I wonder what the trajectory of that was.
And, did anybody think Kim Jong Un would actually heed Trumps warnings? :P
Trump said yesterday that we might, might, go to war with NK but he doesn't want to, or would try not to. So, it's like he is unknowingly escalating the rhetoric (how do you think NK would view that?) while trying to say to Americans "I'm just warning you guys, we may end up in a renewed war with NK*. So.... just giving a heads up."
Also, I think Trump may have boxed himself in a bit, he'll have to respond somehow or otherwise look weak, and he's all about The Big Stick.
As much as Obama was about The Red Line?
Don't get me wrong, Trump and Obama are fundamentally different in terms of personality, but Obama was never able to do things about Syria because the general public just didn't care, and to do it with executive power would invite public backlash over perceived overreach. Admittedly North Korea is a hundred times more openly antagonistic to the US than the Syrian government, but the calculus doesn't differ. Trump could order military strikes, but that would merely solidify domestic opposition against him further if not backed up by a substantial propaganda campaign. I would say it's more likely that the situation between NK and the US remains a war of words and the occasional missile test.
Although North Korea probably wouldn't dare to pull off things like the Cheonan sinking under Trump.
Post by: smjjames on May 05, 2017, 08:20:59 am
What the heck is a 'nano poisonous substance' anyway? Something toxic in tiny amounts?
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 05, 2017, 10:21:02 am
What the heck is a 'nano poisonous substance' anyway? Something toxic in tiny amounts?
Obviously the CIA employs homeopathy to poison people.
Edit: Also, I honestly can't tell how serious NK is. I mean yes, they're making an accusation, but is it for publicity or is it because Kim Jong Un actually believes that there was an assassination attempt?
Post by: Ultimuh on May 05, 2017, 10:27:10 am
Post by: inteuniso on May 05, 2017, 01:33:57 pm
Spoiler: Tangent that converges to smoothing the edges (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 05, 2017, 02:15:32 pm
But perhaps more of an issue is that, going from the famous case study, it takes several months of degeneration to kill the target. A mentally deteriorating Kim-Jong Un who probably knows he's going to die is not a safe thing.
Post by: Starver on May 05, 2017, 05:20:15 pm
Even then I have no idea what sort of poisons would ensure a 50% success rate because I've been more focused on unified field theory.Anything that has an LD50... :P
If it were the CIA, I'd imagine they could try getting together some polonium (replicate the isotopic ratios that pointed to the Russians, if they want to really mess with people's heads, albeit whilst fuelling the counter-conspiricists around Litvinenko), although they could always use Americium. (Talk to David Hahn about getting the material. Then talk to Harold McCluskey about its effectiveness. Or don't, as he died. Eleven years after he got exposed to the stuff. Of a common-or-garden coronary.)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 05, 2017, 05:50:26 pm
Post by: Descan on May 06, 2017, 12:04:10 am
or a moab.
Post by: Amperzand on May 06, 2017, 02:03:44 am
Post by: wierd on May 06, 2017, 02:32:30 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 13, 2017, 01:58:31 pm
I mean. Who doesn't want to enjoy this fantastic documentary of Dennis Rodman's visit to North Korea?
Post by: MaximumZero on May 14, 2017, 12:09:44 am
I wonder what the LD50 of swiss cheese is...Even then I have no idea what sort of poisons would ensure a 50% success rate because I've been more focused on unified field theory.Anything that has an LD50... :P
Post by: martinuzz on May 14, 2017, 03:45:05 am
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/noord-korea-vuurt-nieuw-soort-raket-af~a4494640/
Post by: Reelya on May 14, 2017, 04:49:00 am
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-14/north-korea-fires-unidentified-projectile-south-korean-military/8524684
They would have gotten much more useful data if they'd stuck to a normal trajectory, so that sort of raises questions of why they'd deploy this expensive rocket test on some trajectory that isn't going to furnish them with good data about ICBM design, if this is in fact an ICBM prototype.
The west has a record here, at least three times (1998, 2009, 2013) NK has launched an orbital test and each time SK and USA claimed it was a veiled ballistic missile test, but later retracted the claims when the device was shown to have followed an orbital trajectory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Committee_of_Space_Technology
Quote
The DPRK twice announced that it launched satellites: Kwangmyŏngsŏng-1 on August 31, 1998 and Kwangmyŏngsŏng-2 on April 5, 2009. The USA and South Korea predicted that the launches would in actuality be military ballistic missile tests, but later confirmed that they had followed orbital launch trajectories.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwangmy%C5%8Fngs%C5%8Fng-3
Quote
Kwangmyŏngsŏng-3 (Chosŏn'gŭl: 광명성 3호; Hancha: 光明星3號; English: Bright Star-3[2] or Lode Star-3[3]) was a North Korean Earth observation satellite, which according to the DPRK was for weather forecast purposes, and whose launch was widely portrayed in the West to be a veiled ballistic missile test.
It's sort of a repeating pattern, NK does do something actually to do with space, the western media claims it's a sham, but later admits the space-related thing actually does exist. NK is a basket case but that doesn't mean that you should trust your own side when they write up about NK.
Post by: Starver on May 14, 2017, 04:51:40 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 14, 2017, 05:23:01 am
that doesn't mean that you should trust your own side when they write up about NK.
Haven't we learned anything from Russia? (Cookie if anyone knows this reference)
Post by: Reelya on May 14, 2017, 05:37:09 am
Just South Korea has about 6 times the military spending of the North. SK can mop them up, they don't need any help. As a good hint at how well supplied the two Koreas are, you can look at oil consumption:
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=south-korea
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=north-korea
globalfirepower lists SK as consuming 2,325,000 bbl/day, and NK as consuming 15,000 bbl/day. Secondary sources agree with those figures. So they have a pile of old Cold War hardware sitting around but they don't have enough of an economy to mobilize that shit, no chance.
Post by: Neonivek on May 14, 2017, 06:16:14 am
Post by: Starver on May 14, 2017, 06:53:45 am
I wonder if any of the 'failed' launches that fell short in the SCS went a distance actually chosen to replicate that needed to reach Jeju, for calibration purposes...
Post by: Reelya on May 14, 2017, 07:23:18 am
Sure, they could suicide blitz South Korea and perhaps hit Japan with something as well while they're at it. And then what? What political objectives does that achieve?
In theory if they throw everything into it, they could lob something at America, but exactly why would they single out America? That narrative seems more about American self-obsession rather than anything else. NK is interested in it's own regional politics more than US politics.
Post by: Starver on May 14, 2017, 10:22:22 am
Attacking SK or the US would be all but suicide but, should the semi-MAD scenario actually become semi-MAD, it would bruise their enemies enough for future historians to not forget what happened so easily...
Post by: Strife26 on May 14, 2017, 01:57:58 pm
Post by: martinuzz on May 15, 2017, 03:04:19 am
It further reports the test was a complete success. Kim Jong-Un warns the US that it is within it's reach.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 03:24:46 am
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 03:35:15 am
One of the main questions however is whether NK can actually miniaturize a nuke to fit on any missile. That's the thing experts have been most skeptical about.
Is it? I mean, we're speaking about nuke: if they show an ICBM capability and claim they can fit a nuke on it, you can't take the risk of assuming they're lying.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 03:43:11 am
Basically there are two possibilities. (1) their regime implodes, or (2) they manage to somehow build something that can hit somewhere, anywhere. My bet is that (1) happens in a shorter timeframe than (2).
PS: notice how North Korea never boasts about how accurate their missiles are. If they had any sort of targeting worked out, you can be sure they'd aim for specific locations in the ocean and drop missiles right there, and boast about it. They don't make any mention of that, so you can be pretty sure that their targeting systems absolutely suck.
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 03:52:10 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 15, 2017, 03:53:24 am
Yeah, they can't win a battle. But they can kills hundred of thousands easily (especially if they can nuke Seoul). Sure, it'd be the end of the regime, but what if the regime is already toppling?
What else could they do to encourage it more than what is already happening? Well, I guess the leader could insult his own military.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 04:02:20 am
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 04:11:34 am
NK never mentions targeting, just range. My bet is that if they were capable of pinpointing Seoul, they'd drop some missiles into the ocean a similar distance away with similar accuracy and boast about it.
Seoul is about 20 km across and less than 40 km from the NK border. There's not much pinpointing needed.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 04:18:23 am
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/roguestate/resources/huisken.htm
Quote
This study, chaired by Donald Rumsfeld (Defence Secretary under President Ford in the mid-1970s and re-appointed to that position by President George W. Bush) concluded that states like North Korea and Iran could threaten the US with ballistic missiles tipped with biological or nuclear warheads within about five years of a decision to do so.
Any time someone tells you of something unlikely happening "within 5 years" no matter the subject append "yeah bullshit" on the end. "within 5 years" is what people write when they're talking out their asses but want to make something sound plausibly soon.
And googling 1995-2000, I can find that claim at least as early as 1998.
https://fas.org/rlg/991117.htm
Quote
The Rumsfeld Commission on July 15, 1998 reported that an elementary ICBM force could emerge in North Korea, Iran, or Iraq, within five years of a dedicated program to produce such a capability
EDIT: found the same claim from a 1996 study. the search blurb was actually:
Quote
Dec 15, 1996. The North Koreans may deploy an ICBM capable of reaching the United. States within five years....https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=439600
It's a Navy doctoral thesis written by an intelligence officer, but still, it's unlikely he thought that up himself, the intelligence crowd were probably selling the "NK ICBM within 5 years" stuff before he even started his doctorate, so it originates around the early 1990s, e.g. around 25 years they've been making the same exact assessment.
"Within 5 years" is military intelligence coding for "could happen one day, but give us more money now".
Post by: Neonivek on May 15, 2017, 04:37:01 am
Then again... that itself is misleading because the person reading the report would likely not catch onto that.
I mean yeah if I dropped absolutely everything I could probably make a car in 5 years.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 15, 2017, 04:55:33 am
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 05:24:54 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery
Apparently 20 people per artillery piece is about right, but that's not counting logistics and supply lines etc. So presuming they actually have 10000 heavy artillery pieces properly manned, that would need about a quarter of a million people to do that.
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 08:03:31 am
However, they've been saying "within 5 years" for an NK icbm for like ... 20 years now. This is from a 2000-2005 google search, result is dated 2001:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/roguestate/resources/huisken.htmQuoteThis study, chaired by Donald Rumsfeld (Defence Secretary under President Ford in the mid-1970s and re-appointed to that position by President George W. Bush) concluded that states like North Korea and Iran could threaten the US with ballistic missiles tipped with biological or nuclear warheads within about five years of a decision to do so.
Any time someone tells you of something unlikely happening "within 5 years" no matter the subject append "yeah bullshit" on the end. "within 5 years" is what people write when they're talking out their asses but want to make something sound plausibly soon.
And googling 1995-2000, I can find that claim at least as early as 1998.
https://fas.org/rlg/991117.htmQuoteThe Rumsfeld Commission on July 15, 1998 reported that an elementary ICBM force could emerge in North Korea, Iran, or Iraq, within five years of a dedicated program to produce such a capability
EDIT: found the same claim from a 1996 study. the search blurb was actually:QuoteDec 15, 1996. The North Koreans may deploy an ICBM capable of reaching the United. States within five years....https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=439600
It's a Navy doctoral thesis written by an intelligence officer, but still, it's unlikely he thought that up himself, the intelligence crowd were probably selling the "NK ICBM within 5 years" stuff before he even started his doctorate, so it originates around the early 1990s, e.g. around 25 years they've been making the same exact assessment.
"Within 5 years" is military intelligence coding for "could happen one day, but give us more money now".
Are you just copy/pasting unrelated old posts of yours?
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2017, 08:31:50 am
Which is why I was already wondering if some of the unconventional (or 'failed') rocket experiments were smarter than they seemed. With Thaad now seemingly deployed to all good South Korean golf courses (well, one of them, but maybe it's the best one, I don't play golf so I wouldn't care to know), they're perhaps looking at rocketry that'll pass well over any shield and hit things currently considered unreachable.
For crowing about accuracy, maybe it's not accurate enough yet. An NK 'fishing boat' in the rough area of where the 'short' test came down could not yet have reported sufficiently favourable results to boast about. Though should the fishing boat gets wet from the splash, they then know they've got a (conventional) delivery system they can rattle, sabre-like, at their enemies, and then NK gets to be taken even more seriously.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 09:15:31 am
Are you just copy/pasting unrelated old posts of yours?
No, i looked that stuff up just now. What you're thinking of is that they also did the same thing about Iranian ICBMs, and I posted about that in a different thread. Everyone is going to get ICBMs "within 5 years", for the last 20+ years. And funnily enough, not one single nation that they've claimed would gain ICBMs "within 5 years" since the mid 1990s actually has developed ICBMs. The only nation that's gained ICBMs since the end of the Cold War is India, who have never been listed on those "likely to get ICBMs" lists.
It's thread-relevant because people are in fact buying into the "any day now" rhetoric. The fact that they've constantly made the same claims of "any day now" for a few decades is in fact relevant to estimating the believability at this stage.
"but this time really really" doesn't cut it, because they've said that every time for 20+ years. The messenger isn't believable basically, so it's hard to glean much from any claims that are made, since they're coming from the same sources who haven't been right in the past.
When they keep claiming a laundry list of enemy nations are on the verge of launching ICBMs any day now, and constantly repeat that for decades and it never really eventuates for any of the nations you really do have to ask whether they're just crying wolf, or whether any of their estimates are any better than "maybe might happen one day at some unspecified point in the future".
Post by: martinuzz on May 15, 2017, 09:22:49 am
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 09:25:39 am
In that context, you claiming that they certainly can't hit Seoul seems a tad ridiculous.
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 09:29:38 am
They'd probably do more damage with traditional artillery than that "thing" they showed off, which was almost certainly a fake. If not a fake, the point is that it's about the same size as a tac. nuke such as the Davy Crocket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_nuclear_weapon), which had a yield of 10-20 tons.
~~~
You know what you should be expecting, North Korea will open talks with the USA and ask for bribes to stop with the missile shit. That'll be win-win for NK and Trump so he might go for it. They're almost certainly playing this the way Trump would. If you want the other side to make concessions, then you have to start the negotiations WAY past what you actually want. And some "ICBM vs America" baloney is a good bargaining position for North Korea to start from, because they can ask for resources in exchange for dialling back from something they had no real hope of achieving in the first place.
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 09:53:48 am
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 10:02:38 am
NK really is crying for oil, so it's questionable how functional their military would be in an actual fight with just about anyone. They do have plenty of coal however so perhaps they can pioneer ... steam-powered tanks?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-nuclear-china-oil-idUSKBN17F17L
It's estimated the US military goes through 340,000 barrels of oil per day (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/7-gas-guzzling-military-combat-vehicles.html). Contrast that with NK's estimated 15,000 barrels a day, but which includes total national oil consumption for all purposes. That doesn't leave a whole lot for actually driving tanks around and flying fighters. Sure maybe they've got a lot of old gear on the books, but it's almost certainly for show and not operational equipment.
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 10:26:00 am
Post by: Reelya on May 15, 2017, 10:32:37 am
Post by: Sheb on May 15, 2017, 11:54:14 am
Post by: martinuzz on May 15, 2017, 12:09:56 pm
It's estimated the US military goes through 340,000 barrels of oil per day (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/7-gas-guzzling-military-combat-vehicles.html). Contrast that with NK's estimated 15,000 barrels a day, but which includes total national oil consumption for all purposes. That doesn't leave a whole lot for actually driving tanks around and flying fighters. Sure maybe they've got a lot of old gear on the books, but it's almost certainly for show and not operational equipment.
Can't really compare the two. NK doesn't patrol half the globe with it's navy, nor do they have the vast distances to be covered on land like the US has.
Post by: Strife26 on May 15, 2017, 03:18:11 pm
It's estimated the US military goes through 340,000 barrels of oil per day (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/7-gas-guzzling-military-combat-vehicles.html). Contrast that with NK's estimated 15,000 barrels a day, but which includes total national oil consumption for all purposes. That doesn't leave a whole lot for actually driving tanks around and flying fighters. Sure maybe they've got a lot of old gear on the books, but it's almost certainly for show and not operational equipment.
Can't really compare the two. NK doesn't patrol half the globe with it's navy, nor do they have the vast distances to be covered on land like the US has.
The point isn't that NK can win, the point and threat is the damage that the DPRK gets to do in its death throes. And the amount of destruction they can put into South Korea is considerable. And the loss to the troops who will need to crash the DMZ will be considerable. And the resulting refugee crisis as South Korea and China get to try to bring an impoverished, indoctrinated country into the 21st century will be considerable.
Post by: Strife26 on May 15, 2017, 06:51:02 pm
Although apparently a lot of people there aren't indoctrinated (at least according to a lot of defectors). They just follow the propaganda so they don't disappear suddenly and turn up in some labour camp a month later.It's estimated the US military goes through 340,000 barrels of oil per day (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/7-gas-guzzling-military-combat-vehicles.html). Contrast that with NK's estimated 15,000 barrels a day, but which includes total national oil consumption for all purposes. That doesn't leave a whole lot for actually driving tanks around and flying fighters. Sure maybe they've got a lot of old gear on the books, but it's almost certainly for show and not operational equipment.
Can't really compare the two. NK doesn't patrol half the globe with it's navy, nor do they have the vast distances to be covered on land like the US has.
The point isn't that NK can win, the point and threat is the damage that the DPRK gets to do in its death throes. And the amount of destruction they can put into South Korea is considerable. And the loss to the troops who will need to crash the DMZ will be considerable. And the resulting refugee crisis as South Korea and China get to try to bring an impoverished, indoctrinated country into the 21st century will be considerable.
There's no good metric for measuring indoctrination other than watching what happens when the worldview collapses. Godwin me if you'd like, but there's some very definite comparisons to the fall of the Third Reich and the general shittiness of killing fanatical teenagers.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 15, 2017, 06:58:44 pm
Such is the conceit of it all, I'm afraid. Any outside force that could topple the NK government would also topple that government's society, and important related elements such as having food. Despite what people say, it could get worse in NK, and was worse in the late 90s/early 00s.
Post by: Strife26 on May 15, 2017, 07:21:45 pm
Regardless, it's all but a certainty that any large-scale conflict with North Korea might kill some murderous assholes and would definitely kill thousands to millions of Korean civilians on both sides of the DMZ, certainly far more than any military deaths.
Such is the conceit of it all, I'm afraid. Any outside force that could topple the NK government would also topple that government's society, and important related elements such as having food. Despite what people say, it could get worse in NK, and was worse in the late 90s/early 00s.
How many years of general shittiness need to go on before the apocalyptic destruction and subsequent rebuilding become justified?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 15, 2017, 07:30:54 pm
The utilitarian argument can go either way because we don't know the future. If it goes smooth, maybe intervention is justified. If it doesn't, even NK's shittiness is better than the suffering that would be inflicted by "fixing" it. And any conflict involving the possibility of nuclear weapons includes the possibility of shattering civilization or even driving the human race to extinction, which is most definitely not worth it.
I hate to say it, especially being from a much freer nation, but the North Koreans might have to do it themselves for a positive outcome. Not that we shouldn't pull some spygames to help the reformist faction, though this of course comes with its own risks.
Post by: martinuzz on June 07, 2017, 04:22:07 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/07/world/asia/south-korea-thaad-missile-defense-us.html
Post by: martinuzz on June 14, 2017, 08:07:02 am
According to North Korea, he 'became ill after his trial last year, was given a sleeping pill, and never woke up'.
So looks like he's been in a coma for a year, before being released.
His parents say he has been brutalized by the pariah regime of North Korea.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40271202 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40271202)
With Trump's short fuse, this might becoma a casus belli
Post by: Sheb on June 14, 2017, 08:28:17 am
Post by: Starver on June 14, 2017, 08:35:16 am
I've read he got struck down by botulism.The trouble (or the benefit, according to your POV) is that a year is a long time to have passed between the original decline in health and now, so it may well have been anything from pure fluke, via neglect, to deliberate mis/maltreatment that caused his condition, and the forensic pathology may be unable to discern what lessons are to be learnt and conclusions are to be reached.
Post by: martinuzz on June 14, 2017, 08:36:26 am
Post by: Starver on June 18, 2017, 06:06:38 pm
(Diplomatic power-play by one or the other, probably. But which?)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 19, 2017, 05:24:08 pm
This has been a somewhat strange case. There were, according to his doctors, no signs of either botulism or torture on him. That seems to leave only this mysterious sleeping pill he was given. Intentional, unintentional? Hard to say. NK is pretty awful, but they also do not generally murder foreigners, and even most of the ones taken prisoner are eventually used as political bargaining chips instead of examples. And NK's medical standards are pretty infamous.
Guess we'll never know.
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2017, 05:57:37 pm
It's especially problematic given that whatever happened, happened very shortly after the 'trial'.
IMO, Americans should be disallowed to go there unless maybe they're under protection by the military to keep them from abducting them.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 19, 2017, 06:20:23 pm
The sleeping pill could have been contaminated with something, but yeah, we'll likely never know the real story.If people want to be fool enough to go to North Korea, let them go, they can just do so with the full knowledge that they may get kidnapped and braindamaged by the NK regime. As with every dangerous place one can visit, you should take into account to potential dangers of going there.
It's especially problematic given that whatever happened, happened very shortly after the 'trial'.
IMO, Americans should be disallowed to go there unless maybe they're under protection by the military to keep them from abducting them.
When you say 'the military', do you mean the American military? Because there's no way the NKs would ever allow Americans - or probably any national - to tour about with a bunch of soldiers of another government. It wouldn't help, either, as the amount of force a tourist could take with them, even assuming they were inexplicably allowed to do so, is insignificant compared to the force NK can bring to bear internally.
If you mean their safety is assured by military forces outside NK, that simply wouldn't happen, because few if any civilians visiting NK are worth starting a war over.
Post by: Strife26 on June 19, 2017, 06:32:13 pm
The sleeping pill could have been contaminated with something, but yeah, we'll likely never know the real story.If people want to be fool enough to go to North Korea, let them go, they can just do so with the full knowledge that they may get kidnapped and braindamaged by the NK regime. As with every dangerous place one can visit, you should take into account to potential dangers of going there.
It's especially problematic given that whatever happened, happened very shortly after the 'trial'.
IMO, Americans should be disallowed to go there unless maybe they're under protection by the military to keep them from abducting them.
When you say 'the military', do you mean the American military? Because there's no way the NKs would ever allow Americans - or probably any national - to tour about with a bunch of soldiers of another government. It wouldn't help, either, as the amount of force a tourist could take with them, even assuming they were inexplicably allowed to do so, is insignificant compared to the force NK can bring to bear internally.
If you mean their safety is assured by military forces outside NK, that simply wouldn't happen, because few if any civilians visiting NK are worth starting a war over.
I think that if we got into kiloRodman levels of civilian losses, we might have to consider it.
Post by: misko27 on June 19, 2017, 06:40:08 pm
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2017, 06:46:18 pm
You know, after reading this I was inspired to look up the details of Operation Paul Bunyan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident) again, and I just realized that one of the Korean soldiers who participated in that was Moon Jae-in, aka the new President of lesser Korea.
That's a heck of a coincidence. Also, his military service was really brief, 1975-1977, and apparentlt at a time when SK was conscripting their military.
Post by: Strife26 on June 19, 2017, 06:50:49 pm
You know, after reading this I was inspired to look up the details of Operation Paul Bunyan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident) again, and I just realized that one of the Korean soldiers who participated in that was Moon Jae-in, aka the new President of lesser Korea.
That's a heck of a coincidence. Also, his military service was really brief, 1975-1977, and apparentlt at a time when SK was conscripting their military.
South Korea has used a conscript army for the 1960's and into today.
Post by: martinuzz on July 04, 2017, 04:20:44 am
South Korea and the US government are sceptical, claiming it more likely was a medium range missile instead.
According to Japan, the missile reached an altitude of over 2500km before landing 930km from it's launch site.
According to David Wright, of the Union of Concerned Scientists, an American think tank that monitors the NK rocket programs, the fired missile, Hwasong-14, could possibly have a maximum range of 6700km. This would put Alaska, and the US isle of Guam within range.
South Korean president Moon Jae-in takes the launch very seriously, and said that it is being investigated if the missile was indeed a long range ICBM.
Japanese PM Abe condemned the test, and announced that he will personally ask the presidents of China and Russia to play an active role in halting the NK rocket program.
Trump wondered in a Tweet if 'he (Kim Jong-un) hasn't got better things to do with his life'. He also Tweeted 'perhaps China will take hard measures, and end this nonsense once and for all'.
Post by: Playergamer on July 04, 2017, 09:50:16 am
good. events are proceeding as planned.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 04, 2017, 03:48:34 pm
are you telling me the norks will finally sink Guam?
good. events are proceeding as planned.
No no, they're just going to get rid of those darn US soldiers before they capsize the island. It's basically an environmentally friendly action
Post by: martinuzz on July 05, 2017, 01:34:34 am
Meanwhile, Kim Jong-Un called the launch a 'present for the US to celebrate their Independence Day'.
In response, South Korea and the US started a large military training excercise at the coast of South Korea.
The UN security council will hold a meeting behind closed doors, requested by Japan, South Korea, and the US.
Post by: smjjames on July 05, 2017, 01:37:06 am
Post by: martinuzz on July 05, 2017, 01:41:32 am
Post by: Starver on July 05, 2017, 01:42:47 am
Post by: IronyOwl on July 05, 2017, 05:27:53 pm
Trump wondered in a Tweet if 'he (Kim Jong-un) hasn't got better things to do with his life'. He also Tweeted 'perhaps China will take hard measures, and end this nonsense once and for all'.I wish I could take this as the "we don't care" it warrants, rather than snark followed by saber-rattling back anyway.
Meanwhile, Kim Jong-Un called the launch a 'present for the US to celebrate their Independence Day'.This is awesome, though. More international diplomacy should take the form of internet trash talking instead of... whatever it is we have now.
That's Ok, we'll follow it by Twitter. :-/
:-/
:-/Why would that be a bad thing.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 06:53:19 pm
Post by: smjjames on July 05, 2017, 06:57:41 pm
Post by: Descan on July 05, 2017, 09:29:06 pm
Like I'm not a fan of government secrets but a UN meeting in response to a provocative missile launch from a rogue state *probably* should be secret.
Post by: RedKing on July 29, 2017, 01:21:21 am
Trump is American President when we finally get Hwasong-14 working (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40760583).....SUCH GOOD LAUGH
Post by: smjjames on July 29, 2017, 02:25:18 am
While they may have the range, do they have the precision?
Post by: Sheb on July 29, 2017, 02:28:53 am
So....... Pressure is going to be highly increased on Trump to take action.
While they may have the range, do they have the precision?
Hard to say. Probably not. Not that it changes that much, they already had the power to kill millions in SK if action is taken against them.
Post by: RedKing on July 29, 2017, 02:38:23 am
Aaaand with that, I'm glad I live on the East Coast.
Post by: Sheb on July 29, 2017, 02:39:55 am
Don't worry, Trump is sending his best armada. Yuuuge armada. The submarines? With the things? So powerful. So powerful. Am I right?
Aaaand with that, I'm glad I live on the East Coast.
Have you noticed how their new ICBM has a range that specifically exclude Florida and much of the South? I guess NK wouldn't want to risk improving the place by mistake. :p
Post by: RedKing on July 29, 2017, 02:42:58 am
That's how the South will Rise Again.Don't worry, Trump is sending his best armada. Yuuuge armada. The submarines? With the things? So powerful. So powerful. Am I right?
Aaaand with that, I'm glad I live on the East Coast.
Have you noticed how their new ICBM has a range that specifically exclude Florida and much of the South? I guess NK wouldn't want to risk improving the place by mistake. :p
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 29, 2017, 03:14:09 am
Post by: sluissa on July 29, 2017, 05:34:04 am
Post by: martinuzz on July 29, 2017, 02:36:38 pm
This one reached an altitude of 3700km.
Post by: smjjames on August 08, 2017, 05:47:52 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 08, 2017, 06:33:42 pm
Post by: smjjames on August 08, 2017, 06:38:53 pm
DPRK thread got so weird, that the DPRK thread discussing actual serious politics is weird
We usually laugh at it, yeah, but then Trump escalated the rhetoric and it stopped being funny.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 08, 2017, 06:47:56 pm
We usually laugh at it, yeah, but then Trump escalated the rhetoric and it stopped being funny.Speak for yourself
Post by: martinuzz on August 09, 2017, 02:06:47 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2017, 12:10:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: martinuzz on August 09, 2017, 01:46:57 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2017, 03:00:48 pm
Question: Have you ever thought of getting tattoos saying 'Ready to Launch' on both sides of your sides?'We have liftoff' is also good
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 31, 2017, 08:13:13 pm
Instead, today I randomly ran across a youtube comment by GUNINANRUNIN and now I'm listening to his podcast and now I'm shilling it to you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5TkaObQzJs&index=1&list=PL4Bpw9r81yaluLgugkZpE_kzFOcDSfExP). This is not a paid advertisement yet, don't tell him about this, just let it happen shhh.
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on August 31, 2017, 10:13:29 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 31, 2017, 10:16:41 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on August 31, 2017, 10:26:45 pm
Huh, when I first clicked it was only because I wondered what "a valid discussion" meNt :-[
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 31, 2017, 10:30:37 pm
It is before this you stand, like one who has first beheld the spirit of the sun who is force.
Post by: smjjames on August 31, 2017, 10:35:28 pm
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on August 31, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on August 31, 2017, 11:54:13 pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2DtWz0yEOY
Post by: wierd on September 01, 2017, 12:27:38 am
1) A crippled/failed nation is a nation with very little wealth, even for the fabulously "wealthy". A borderline impoverished American has more "wealth" than a "wealthy" North Korean. Basically, Un's decadence is about on par with somebody who eats out every night and routinely shops at a liquor store. (with a prostitute addiction.) Conceivably, a middle class american could get most of that ticket, and still keep the lights on. Comparatively, ruling a nation the way Un does just results in the ruler living very low class as well. There are better ways to live such a life without dragging thousands of people through the dirt and starving them to death.
2) With the above in mind, there are additional costs to sustaining a despotic regime, such as psychological/happiness costs. Sure, you get to be the guy who is "In charge", but you also have to watch out for knives in the back around every corner, suspect every wall of having ears, and castrate your own economy to stay "In charge." Does the happiness boost of being "In charge" give sufficient value to offeset all the negatives and sources of systemic unhappiness that come along with this method of maintaining it? (Read the original story about the sword of damoclese, and how the flatterer begged the tyrant-king to take him off the throne in the end.)
Instead, NK could have pulled in with China, and been strong economic partners with their big red neighbor. They could have a rising standard of living, and be a real global contender. Instead, the Kim-Jongs have systematically ground their nation into the ground, and now need "the ultimate weapon" to be taken seriously. They are a pathetic mockery.
Post by: SaberToothTiger on September 01, 2017, 02:50:08 am
Post by: wierd on September 01, 2017, 03:07:54 am
There are other ways of staying in charge, or better, making that moot. (See for instance, British royals. Not really involved in government except for a very small and well defined role, but loved by the masses, and permanently enshrined in wealth and decadence. For the most part, their nation is prosperous and wealthy.) The point of being in charge is that you get to live the high life. As stated, the NK "high life" is about on par with "middle to low wage american life." He could be sailing the world in a 200ft private yacht, with a bathtub filled with fine champaign. Instead, he has to feel naughty drinking imported hard liquor, and worrying about his cabinet assassinating him.
Somehow I doubt that Prince George worries that the houses of Lords and Commons are going to snuff him. That is a fear that Un genuinely has.
Post by: martinuzz on September 01, 2017, 04:51:06 am
According to Putin, sanctions and military pressure are misplaced and useless for trying to persuade NK to stop it's nuclear program.
He says the the US, Russia, and the countries in the region should initiate talks with North Korea, without any predetermined terms or conditions.
Meanwhile, the French minister of foreign affairs, Jean-Yves le Drian warns that North Korea will have a deployable long range nuclear missile within a few months now, confirming suspicions of US intelligence.
He urges that the conflict should be resolved through diplomacy.
"Within a few months it will be reality. The situation gets extremely serious and explosive when North Korea has the capability to attack the US, or even Europe".
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/poetin-waarschuwt-voor-grootschalig-militair-conflict-tussen-beide-korea-s~a4514403/
Damnit, Putin. Can't you just, not meddle and interfere for once? Wasn't illegally annexing parts of Ukraine, and turning Syria into even more than a clusterfuck than it already was enough for now?
Post by: Sheb on September 01, 2017, 04:53:57 am
Post by: smjjames on September 01, 2017, 09:24:20 am
Post by: martinuzz on September 01, 2017, 11:27:18 am
Post by: martinuzz on September 02, 2017, 07:15:21 pm
Supposedly, Kim Young One was present at the Institute for nuclear Weapons today, when a bomb was loaded into a missile.
According to KCNA the institute recently developed an advanced nuclear weapon with great detructive power.
Kim Young One stated that he believed his scientist's claim, and praised the "unrestrainable might of the North Korean armed forces".
He added that North Korea has the capability to make as many nuclear weapons as it wants.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/noord-korea-meldt-trots-plaatsen-van-kernwapen-op-raket~a4514685/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/noord-korea-meldt-trots-plaatsen-van-kernwapen-op-raket~a4514685/)
Post by: redwallzyl on September 02, 2017, 07:28:34 pm
Post by: Starver on September 02, 2017, 08:33:00 pm
To have produced a provably working example that fits on their current rocket-tech is indeed unbelievable.
(I can't help but think of that room of international diplomats in Iron Skies, when the NK one claims responsibility. Although that was in a world where Dundee 1, Spitfire, a surprising Mir and three Banzai modules, amongst others, suddenly appeared in orbit, every ship a surprise to each other. Or at least (almost as bad) seemingly them all unknown by the US.)
Post by: Trekkin on September 02, 2017, 09:28:55 pm
As I recall, none of the static tests of (probably not optimised to warhead mass) nuclear devices have yet shown any signs of being a H-Bomb, and some were even detected as likely suboptimal A-Bombs.
To have produced a provably working example that fits on their current rocket-tech is indeed unbelievable.
Not to mention that they're apparently still working with spherical warheads. The picture shows a dumbbell-shaped weapon, which makes sense for a Teller-Ulam design with a spherical primary and secondary separated by a cylindrical sparkplug. It suggests their computing power is somewhat lacking, and that they will hit fundamental constraints on the size of their physics packages simply because the nose of a missile can only be so snubby.
Post by: smjjames on September 03, 2017, 12:07:11 am
As for putting a warhead onto a missile, we certainly don't want to find out the hard way that they have that capability.
Post by: alway on September 03, 2017, 12:47:26 am
(edit: Side note, from what I can tell, the earthquake measurements also correlate with the blast power roughly linearly; so the 10x difference from 5.3 to 6.3 means the payload itself is about an order of magnitude more powerful; this seems to be confirmed by more up to date reporting now giving ~100kt estimates compared to prior 10kt-ish in power)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 03, 2017, 03:41:53 am
Post by: wierd on September 03, 2017, 05:54:06 am
Their country is very small. If they start developing really large warheads, and testing them to go "Raaaawr! We have nucreah Fira Clacka now! US be scaered of us naow!!" every 3 months, they are just going to irradiate every square mile of their nation, and every aquifer in their country.
Why, because this requires them to keep developing bigger and bigger warheads, and even deep underground explosions are going to have serious consequences for them. This is seriously a stupid flirtation with nuclear devices for them.
Post by: martinuzz on September 03, 2017, 06:04:07 am
That still doesn't have to mean it's a hydrogen bomb, but it does make it slightly more probable.
NK state media says their new nuclear weapon has a strenght ranging from several dozens to several hundreds of kilotons TNT, suggesting it is an adjustable yield design.
Post by: Antioch on September 03, 2017, 07:57:13 am
We will probably see a military buildup over the coming weeks/months, followed by another crisis, followed by an ultimatum and ultimately a Decapitating missile and air strike followed by full scale war.
Post by: smjjames on September 03, 2017, 09:08:08 am
Also, on top of all this, Trump is preparing to withdraw from the SK trade deal. Definetly isn't going to make SK happy.
Post by: Akura on September 03, 2017, 12:14:42 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 03, 2017, 12:37:12 pm
I imagine its been asked before, but, who is supplying them with materials for these things?Themselves.
NK has a lot of uranium. 4 million tons of high quality uranium ore or so.
They received machinery and information on enriching it from Pakistan back in the 1990s.
Post by: martinuzz on September 03, 2017, 01:22:08 pm
That's a lot of destructive power, but not really at the scale yet of a hydrogen bomb. Experts speculate that it either wasn't a hydrogen bomb, or it was, but it only detonated partially.
North Korea's previous test was calculated to be about 15 kiloton.
Post by: alway on September 03, 2017, 01:37:36 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 03, 2017, 03:44:50 pm
Or have they finally decided to stop giving the Unicorn Riding Koreans extra supplies?
Post by: martinuzz on September 03, 2017, 04:37:41 pm
Jim Mattis added that "Washington does not want to destroy North Korea, but we are quite capable of it".
The UN security council will hold an emergency meeting this monday.
Post by: smjjames on September 03, 2017, 08:43:40 pm
This Chyna really need a buffer state so badly that they want to continue pumping resources into one of the worst regimes seen in the last 50 years or so? Do they also want nukes so close to their border?
Or have they finally decided to stop giving the Unicorn Riding Koreans extra supplies?
Because they aren't comfortable with having an US friendly country/regieme right up against their borders and they are REALLY, REALLY, uncomfortable with having US troops (plus radars and all the assorted stuff that come with an US base) anywhere near their border, even if it's in a friendly country.
Maybe they'd be fine with US troops and stuff being stationed no closer than they are currently.
Geopolitics aside, which can be negotiated in the end, what they are REALLY worried about, is the aftermath of a NK regieme collapse. As much as they have distaste for NK, and they've been giving China the middle finger a good deal recently, they don't want it to destructively collapse because then that would mean that they'd have to deal with the refugees pouring out and the instability that comes with a failed state.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 04, 2017, 01:42:03 am
People here do realize that our view of NK (and their relationship to China) is, in fact, quite biased, right? I mean, it's probably not a pleasant place to live, but you have to take with a grain of salt the more outlandish rumors.
Post by: martinuzz on September 04, 2017, 03:07:15 am
Post by: Grimlocke on September 04, 2017, 05:14:10 am
I don't think they have distaste for NK at all, for that matter
Given that the current North Korea is pretty much Maoist China's mini-me, I would guess the current CCP views them with a mixture of nostalgia and shame.
Its like a embarrassing younger sibling that never grew out of its extreme Stalin worship phase.
In a slightly more sincere tone, Mao brought China to the brink of revolt, starvation and bankruptcy with the Korea war, on top of all the dead people. I really doubt the CCP will write off its most enthusiastic clone anytime soon.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 10, 2017, 09:01:02 am
I don't think they have distaste for NK at all, for that matter
Given that the current North Korea is pretty much Maoist China's mini-me, I would guess the current CCP views them with a mixture of nostalgia and shame.
Its like a embarrassing younger sibling that never grew out of its extreme Stalin worship phase.
In a slightly more sincere tone, Mao brought China to the brink of revolt, starvation and bankruptcy with the Korea war, on top of all the dead people. I really doubt the CCP will write off its most enthusiastic clone anytime soon.
I have a feeling at this point that China doesn't give a shit about the politics of NK and is far more annoyed/concerned with the idea of America having a strong presence directly on it's border.
Despite the level of shit that is NK (leadership at least...not people) America is still the aggressor at the moment. America has spent over 20 years performing diplomatic actions against NK to "no effect"...but that is not a mistake. America is essentially trying to choke NK into a war to further it's global military stance.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 09:36:39 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 10, 2017, 09:40:53 am
Post by: Teneb on September 10, 2017, 11:24:02 am
NK is still dependent on China for exports though. Regardless of nuclear capabilitiesPretty much. China is the only one willing to buy anything coming out of NK.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 11:32:50 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 10, 2017, 11:34:35 am
Not true. (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prk/) China is North Korea's dominant trade partner, but there exist other trade relationships which could be expanded (and would be expanded once the nuclear program is completed, which is part of the motivation for NK).
But look at the numbers. China is larger than the others combined. And China will grow larger.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 11:40:46 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 10, 2017, 11:54:41 am
There is no reason to believe China's existing percentage of trade with NK will grow, especially under a nuclear NK. That's the whole point of this. China can cajole and threaten a non-nuclear NK, with abandonment if nothing else (and there is else). A nuclear NK doesn't have to put up with that and can sign over their trade products to other states without concern, and receive trade from those nations as well.
*Mao intensifies*
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ov9k6GN5ectvp4pnW/giphy.gif)
Post by: smjjames on September 10, 2017, 11:56:38 am
Not true. (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prk/) China is North Korea's dominant trade partner, but there exist other trade relationships which could be expanded (and would be expanded once the nuclear program is completed, which is part of the motivation for NK).
But look at the numbers. China is larger than the others combined. And China will grow larger.
That's because trade sanctions are preventing most everybody else from doing business with NK.
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2017, 12:06:42 pm
This Chyna really need a buffer state so badly that they want to continue pumping resources into one of the worst regimes seen in the last 50 years or so?
Spoiler: Chyna is already the buffest, can't get buffer (click to show/hide)
Post by: Antioch on September 10, 2017, 05:29:24 pm
Not true. (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prk/) China is North Korea's dominant trade partner, but there exist other trade relationships which could be expanded (and would be expanded once the nuclear program is completed, which is part of the motivation for NK).
But look at the numbers. China is larger than the others combined. And China will grow larger.
That's because trade sanctions are preventing most everybody else from doing business with NK.
And why would we lift those as long as North Korea has nuclear weapons?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 05:33:42 pm
North Korea will then be free and clear to trade with other nations, and due to their position as an isolated economy may offer opportunities that other nations find enticing. Cheap coal, NK "laborers" (Russia already makes use of this), etc. China will of course be furious, but it's kind of too late at that point.
Unless China is so very furious that they allow an American fleet to blockade with their EEZ waters, but I find that beggars belief compared to NK just being able to trade.
Post by: Teneb on September 10, 2017, 05:40:25 pm
It's a likely outcome. If there's a mature nuclear program in North Korea, it won't be undone by sanctions any longer, and so the principle geopolitical actors will be incentivized to cease concerning themselves with it. China and Russia will back off immediately, Europe and India not long thereafter. At that point, continued sanctions from the US won't be strong enough unless we use the Seventh Fleet as a blockade, which wouldn't go over well.There's also the scenario where China is pissed off enough they have Kim and his internal backers eliminated. Whether they just put a figurehead in charge (more likely) or actually annex is something else.
North Korea will then be free and clear to trade with other nations, and due to their position as an isolated economy may offer opportunities that other nations find enticing. Cheap coal, NK "laborers" (Russia already makes use of this), etc. China will of course be furious, but it's kind of too late at that point.
Unless China is so very furious that they allow an American fleet to blockade with their EEZ waters, but I find that beggars belief compared to NK just being able to trade.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 05:44:46 pm
You don't need a missile to nuke a Chinese city from North Korea. You need a moving van.
And China would never attempt to annex North Korea, that borders on comedy. All of the places that China has annexed over the last century were ones that have been in and out of the control of Chinese governments for a thousand years, which does not include Korea (much).
Post by: smjjames on September 10, 2017, 05:50:38 pm
Not sure at what point you'd call a nuclear program mature, but it's already clear that sanctions aren't stopping it no matter what. At this point, the measures that would make it stop could also lead to it's collapse.
edit: Why would China want to annex NK? They'd just end up with US troops on (at first anyway) and near the border inside a country that's friendly to the US. Which is exactly the kind of situation they'd rather avoid.
And to add to MSH, the only period that Korea got invaded by China was when China was under control by the Mongols. Other than that brief period, Korea has has a vassal/tributary state relationship with China for centuries.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 10, 2017, 05:56:43 pm
Post by: Culise on September 10, 2017, 06:30:41 pm
And China would never attempt to annex North Korea, that borders on comedy. All of the places that China has annexed over the last century were ones that have been in and out of the control of Chinese governments for a thousand years, which does not include Korea (much).Eh, Korea's not that much odder than Tibet, where they went in and hammered it, and Vietnam, where they got a bloody nose for their limited gains, withdrew, and subsequently claimed a win regardless. Besides, there was some muttering from both Korean governments as well as most independent scholars back a few years when China started characterizing Goguryeo as a Chinese state by virtue of its northern territories in Manchuria and Liaodong, which was at its most paranoid extreme viewed as China laying a foundation in Korean history for their more modern "interests" in North Korea.
The real reason China wouldn't be interested in annexing North Korea, rather than any (lack of) nebulous historical viability, is because they sure as sin do not want to inherit the economic and demographic mess that would be entailed in any collapse of the government there. They aren't even interested in seeing it melt down on their border, hence why they've been rather muted during what has appeared to be the latest wave of purges of potentially pro-Chinese members of government a few years back. As long as it stays domestically quiescent, they'll tolerate the occasional bellicose action taken against the West.
Post by: martinuzz on September 14, 2017, 08:43:12 am
After the test, South Korea reported it was an explosion of about 50 kiloton TNT. Japanese experts estimated it at 150 kiloton.
US intelligence services said they thought it to be 140 kiloton.
According to the new research done by 38 North, it appears it was a bomb of 250 kiloton, making it likely that it was indeed a hydrogen bomb.
For comparison, the nuke dropped on Heroshima, which instantly killed 78000 people had an explosive force of 15 kiloton.
Meanwhile, North Korea threatened today to nuke the US and Japan if sanctions aren't lifted. "Let us reduce the US mainland to ashes! Let us show our wrath by deploying every means of retaliation that we have prepared so far", the committee for external affairs stated.
"The four islands of the Japanese archipelago will have to be sunk into the ocean with the nuclear bomb of Juche".
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/atoombom-noord-korea-was-17-keer-krachtiger-dan-hiroshima-bom-zegt-denktank-vs~a4516584/
Post by: Teneb on September 14, 2017, 09:21:44 am
I mean, they are certainly a real threat to Japan now, in addition to the damage they could do to S. Korea and to a lesser extent China, but can they even deliver the bomb across the ocean?
Post by: martinuzz on September 14, 2017, 09:27:38 am
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/atoombom-noord-korea-was-17-keer-krachtiger-dan-hiroshima-bom-zegt-denktank-vs~a4516584/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/atoombom-noord-korea-was-17-keer-krachtiger-dan-hiroshima-bom-zegt-denktank-vs~a4516584/)
http://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright
Post by: Antioch on September 14, 2017, 09:32:17 am
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2017, 09:38:49 am
1)For the west, fear of North korea shelling Seoul with their conventional but still quite deadly artillery
2)For China, fear of sharing a border with an USA ally which hosts USA bases (if North korea falls, whatever happens china will see USA military uncomfortably close)
3)For both, fear of impoverished masses and a broken government to deal with, for the post war situation in which somebody has to rebuild NK
Basically, neither side can afford a military engagement in North korea or its results, and North Korea knows it.
Post by: Teneb on September 14, 2017, 09:41:10 am
Yes, they can, check the animated globe at the bottom of the news article. They can get about as far as Chicago with their latest missile.Well, that's bad.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/atoombom-noord-korea-was-17-keer-krachtiger-dan-hiroshima-bom-zegt-denktank-vs~a4516584/ (https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/atoombom-noord-korea-was-17-keer-krachtiger-dan-hiroshima-bom-zegt-denktank-vs~a4516584/)
http://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright
Also I keep thinking Chigaco is in the US' west coast for whatever reason.
Remind me, why again did the world let North Korea develop nuclear weapons?It wasn't exactly easy, especially with China thinking it had NK on a leash. NK has excellent terrain for defending, and no one wanted to send their troops into a meatgrinder. Plus what andrea said.
I'd usually say at this point that NK won't actually launch the nuke because that would be a death sentence. But, uh... it's NK.
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2017, 09:58:40 am
Post by: Strife26 on September 14, 2017, 10:06:26 am
Ideally, rebuilding NK should be an international effort, given how much rebuilding, building, and modernization has to be done. That and Trump is all "No more nationbuilding!". China would probably want some say and investment in it, given that they're already investing in SK.
It's something even more terrible than nation building, nation building Berlin level ruins by committee without a tenth of the interest organization money!
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2017, 10:14:13 am
Ideally, rebuilding NK should be an international effort, given how much rebuilding, building, and modernization has to be done. That and Trump is all "No more nationbuilding!". China would probably want some say and investment in it, given that they're already investing in SK.
It's something even more terrible than nation building, nation building Berlin level ruins by committee without a tenth of the interest organization money!
I meant more like having SK (well, it'd be a unified Korea by then) lead it with help coming internationally than the US bearing the brunt of it. China, being their neighbor, is going to have interest in it regardless. The SK portion of it doesn't have the economy to go it alone anyway, especially if Seoul got pummelled and the SK portion would have it's own reconstruction to do.
Post by: Starver on September 14, 2017, 10:21:33 am
Also I keep thinking Chigaco is in the US' west coast for whatever reason.Even though I do know it's positioned up by the freshwater coast in mid-north-or-actually-a-bit-more-to-the-east, I tend to think of Chicago as grouped with Seattle (and honorarily Canadadadadian, as well), so maybe you have picked up the same sort impression?
Post by: Descan on September 14, 2017, 11:44:10 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 14, 2017, 12:24:45 pm
Post by: Descan on September 14, 2017, 03:57:13 pm
Post by: martinuzz on September 14, 2017, 06:02:29 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/world/asia/north-korea-missile.html?mcubz=3 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/world/asia/north-korea-missile.html?mcubz=3)
I kinda have to praise Trump at this moment for showing restraint, unless there's already a few 100 missiles flying to NK right now as we speak.
Post by: Antioch on September 14, 2017, 06:05:55 pm
A civil war in a country armed with nuclear weapons is an almost impossible situation.
You don't hear about that aspect of nuclear proliferation a lot.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2017, 06:06:43 pm
Oop, apparently there's been ANOTHER missile that's gone and flown over Japan.Nah I think it's more China saying that Turnip making the first move will mean they will back Norkea, giving Nokea the confidence needed to continue shotting missiles at American allies
At this point I think Kim's actively trying to antagonise the T-man into declaring war.
Post by: martinuzz on September 14, 2017, 06:08:23 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 14, 2017, 06:09:00 pm
I wonder what would happen if the US fired some fake missiles over NK territory
Nothing good? Mixed international praise and condemnation?
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2017, 06:11:14 pm
International praise, domestic condemnation (and praise)I wonder what would happen if the US fired some fake missiles over NK territoryNothing good? Mixed international praise and condemnation?
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2017, 06:17:59 pm
Oop, apparently there's been ANOTHER missile that's gone and flown over Japan.Nah I think it's more China saying that Turnip making the first move will mean they will back Norkea, giving Nokea the confidence needed to continue shotting missiles at American allies
At this point I think Kim's actively trying to antagonise the T-man into declaring war.
I think 'first move' here means doing a pre-emptive strike thing. Pretty sure 'shooting down a missile to defend themselves/ourselves' doesn't count.
Though yeah, that's hella provocative what with shooting more missiles over Japan. Makes the chances of a miscalculation even higher, whether it's a missile commander with an itchy trigger finger or something else.
One of the things I was wondering about is what would happen if the North Korean government DID collapse.
A civil war in a country armed with nuclear weapons is an almost impossible situation.
You don't hear about that aspect of nuclear proliferation a lot.
It's also a concern about Pakistan, as that country isn't real stable. Actually, it happening in Pakistan would be an even worse situation.
Post by: Antioch on September 14, 2017, 06:28:17 pm
What is the goal of economic sanctions on North Korea?
Is it to convince North Korea to give up their weapons? -> fat chance of that happening.
Is it to collapse the North Korean government? -> That is possibly the WORST thing that could happen in this crisis.
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2017, 06:32:06 pm
Post by: misko27 on September 14, 2017, 07:11:34 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2017, 07:26:17 pm
believe me
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 14, 2017, 07:46:29 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 14, 2017, 07:47:58 pm
When the time is right, the title shall arise.
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 14, 2017, 07:53:23 pm
There is nothing more sacred in my sight than the title of DPRK Thread, and that ain't it.
When the time is right, the title shall arise.
But the current title....where did that even come from?I just don't get it.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 14, 2017, 08:14:42 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 14, 2017, 08:14:50 pm
Our title is backed by the power of nuclear weapons! It needs no justification.There is nothing more sacred in my sight than the title of DPRK Thread, and that ain't it.
When the time is right, the title shall arise.
But the current title....where did that even come from?I just don't get it.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2017, 08:41:36 pm
japan is gonna be absolutely livider (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-possibly-preparing-intercontinental-ballistic-missile-test-n801401)
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2017, 08:44:25 pm
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2017, 11:19:03 pm
This kind of thing seems ripe for a mistake to happen, sooner or later they might test Japan by sending it on a path that goes near a major city. They're already making Japan nervous. Samurai discipline or not, it wouldn't take much for some military officer to make a split second decision to fire on the missile.
Post by: Starver on September 15, 2017, 01:12:23 am
(Leaving it up to others to make use of the further obvious words, don't want to overblow an honest point )
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 15, 2017, 02:11:00 am
It also appears to be almost the exact same path as the other one, just a little further north actually.So what if they do
This kind of thing seems ripe for a mistake to happen, sooner or later they might test Japan by sending it on a path that goes near a major city. They're already making Japan nervous. Samurai discipline or not, it wouldn't take much for some military officer to make a split second decision to fire on the missile.
Post by: martinuzz on September 15, 2017, 02:47:34 am
I feel for the poor folks that keep getting told to get to the bomb shelters. Few more times, and they will all be drooling wrecks asking their shrinks for more Xanax.
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 15, 2017, 03:41:01 am
Post by: wierd on September 15, 2017, 03:43:44 am
(GLorious leader will defeat his sworn enemy sooner or later! Your days are NUMBERED Aquaman!!)
Either that, or they are trying to rile up Godzilla.
Post by: smjjames on September 15, 2017, 12:40:33 pm
It also appears to be almost the exact same path as the other one, just a little further north actually.So what if they do
This kind of thing seems ripe for a mistake to happen, sooner or later they might test Japan by sending it on a path that goes near a major city. They're already making Japan nervous. Samurai discipline or not, it wouldn't take much for some military officer to make a split second decision to fire on the missile.
It could escalate from there, or not. Since we've never actually tried to shoot down one of their missiles, we can't be absolutely sure what the reaction would be. Not to mention the potential embarrassment if said missile defense misses. NK seems to be playing it (relatively) safe atm by using a similar path from the last one, which seemed to be trying to thread the needle with as little land as possible under it. They COULD point it southeastish, but given they've already threatened to shoot at Guam, it could cause Trump to think they were trying to attack Guam.
Post by: Trekkin on September 15, 2017, 12:58:45 pm
Not to mention the potential embarrassment if said missile defense misses.
This is more likely than anyone likes to admit, too; part of the reason for MAD as a doctrine is the extreme difficulty of intercepting an ICBM strike with any degree of certainty. The whole focus on second-strike capability reflects an acceptance that stopping the first strike is not feasible, so the only real options are retaliatory.
Post by: Mech#4 on September 16, 2017, 12:31:43 am
Post by: Antioch on September 16, 2017, 07:12:26 am
Do the missiles explode when they hit the ocean or something? Have people tried to collect them afterwards so they can see what they're dealing with?
The ocean is kilometres deep where the missiles land.
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 07:33:01 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 07:36:37 am
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 07:41:56 am
You don't need a computer to aim a ballistic missile. Pen and paper is sufficient.
That's irrelevant. My point is that if they were able to pinpoint where these missiles were going to impact the surface, they would make a big deal of it. They keep silent about it however, and that's out of character. Which implies that these rockets are very innaccurate. What that suggests to me is that their tech isn't accurate enough to land a payload it's capable of carrying close enough to a target where it would damage said target.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 07:55:41 am
They have enough brainpower to construct an advanced nuclear device, but not to go borrow a book on fundamentals of astrodynamics from a library? Or is their targetting technology worse than WWII-era tech?
Sounds like wishful thinking.
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2017, 08:01:54 am
You need in-flight adjustments (practically) all the way down as much as you need them going up, with these beasts. (Assuming that they know where they are, and OTS GPS devices won't work at these speeds and (all but the lowest altitude segments of) these trajectories. So homegrown receivers, or hacked ones from the rest of the world, would be needed.)
If they haven't got that, they've got a Big Dumb Rocket that they can land on the right country, but I doubt they can even be confident of hitting Guam if they tried... Which won't stop them trying, if they want to, but that's just another reason to not want to.
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 08:06:44 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_ballistic_missile#Flight_phases
Quote
Strategic missile systems are thought to use custom integrated circuits designed to calculate navigational differential equations thousands to millions of FLOPS in order to reduce navigational errors caused by calculation alone. These circuits are usually a network of binary addition circuits that continually recalculate the missile's position. The inputs to the navigation circuit are set by a general purpose computer according to a navigational input schedule loaded into the missile before launch.
There are a lot of variables you just can't really predict ahead of time, e.g. turbulence.
Also if you look at the cost of ICBMs they're some of the most expensive weapons systems ever devised. Only a tiny handful of countries (6) even possess ICBM launch capabilities, because of how expensive they are.
The idea that a tiny, low-pop and incredibly poor country with a terrible education system could create a viable ICBM launch system with all the multi-discipline knowlege that goes into that is making a "lot of assumptions". They have one dude who's good with launching rockets, they lucked out with that. That doesn't mean he's necessarily good at designing anything else, and doesn't imply they have the range of skilled professionals they'd need to pull this off. It's propaganda.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 08:17:07 am
The Germans managed to reliably hit cities in the 1940s using gyroscopes for guidance.
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 08:21:10 am
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2017, 08:23:29 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 08:34:11 am
The idea that a tiny, low-pop and incredibly poor country with a terrible education system could create a viable ICBM launch system with all the multi-discipline knowlege that goes into that is making a "lot of assumptions". They have one dude who's good with launching rockets, they lucked out with that. That doesn't mean he's necessarily good at designing anything else, and doesn't imply they have the range of skilled professionals they'd need to pull this off. It's propaganda.Yes, yes. And the tiny, low-pop and poor country totally didn't build a nuclear device. And the actual working ICBMs. But when it comes to targetting, oh boy, that's too hard.
Look, peeps, it might very well be that they somehow dun goofed on targetting. But evidence shows that they have the brains and the means to engineer high-tech devices, so assuming that they really did spectacularly fail in this particular case is unwarranted.
Post by: martinuzz on September 16, 2017, 08:43:05 am
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 09:13:51 am
e.g. the biggest NK nuclear test so far was about 8 kilotons. The Davy Crocket, an American nuke that's launched from a Mortar-like device by hand has a yield iof 10-20 kilotons. So they can blow up things that are about half the yield of the WWII bombs. Sure that's still scary, but just being able to replicate designs the USA made 70 years ago doesn't imply a necessary genius at engineering, and doesn't necessarily mean they've miniturized whatever they have enough to get that payload on their 3400 km rocket.
Then, with the targeting of Guam, it's 10 times the distance as the V2s flew, and they hit within an 18 km accuracy. Guam being 550 km^2, you'd need to hit within a 23 km accuracy, so you need basically the same accuracy as the V2 but over 10 times as far. There's no evidence that they have this tech or anyone specialized in it at all.
Next, you have reentry, none of the NK long range missiles have had a payload that's survived re-entry yet. It's unlikely they have anyone who has expertise in this particular area so they're just winging it by trrial and error right now. There being less atmosphere in the way isn't a selling point. You go up and come down a lot faster meaning much more air resistance, and the need for specialized re-entry tech.
The thing is, you gotta hit Guam within a few km, then the payload needs to carry one of their nukes, and it needs to detonate at the right altititude to be sure of doing damage. All of that sounds pretty unlikely right now. They have one scientists who's good at getting missiles to launch, doesn't necessarily mean they have the technical eco-system to make everything else work, and once you have it, it's expensive to maintain that capability. America doesn't launch any ICBMs, but just maintaining the ability to do so is very expensive and requires huge amounts of manpower / brainpower.
Post by: smjjames on September 16, 2017, 09:15:57 am
You don't need a computer to aim a ballistic missile. Pen and paper is sufficient.
That's irrelevant. My point is that if they were able to pinpoint where these missiles were going to impact the surface, they would make a big deal of it. They keep silent about it however, and that's out of character. Which implies that these rockets are very innaccurate. What that suggests to me is that their tech isn't accurate enough to land a payload it's capable of carrying close enough to a target where it would damage said target.
Which is why the extremely specific threat at Guam was such a surprise, they don't normally say the equivalent of "hold my beer, you're gonna watch me hit bullseye at coordinate xyz".
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 09:24:13 am
Also, ICBM systems aren't the same as just landing a whole rocket some distance away by ballistic aiming. They have 3-4 total stages similar to space rockets, so you have to make sure every stage operates correctly, then the payload needs to detonate in the air above the target rather than just hitting the sea or the ground, which would probably make it a dud.
Post by: smjjames on September 16, 2017, 09:33:16 am
edit: I doubt even NK would want to waste a warhead in a test unless they want to actually test said warhead. I suspect we could see such a test at some point. The previous one which went over Japan disintegrated into pieces midflight, don't know what happened to the most recent one.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 09:44:17 am
e.g. the biggest NK nuclear test so far was about 8 kilotonsUnder which rock have you been living?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_North_Korean_nuclear_test
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 10:03:34 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41139741
NK propaganda is basically that they detonated the warhead seen in the above picture, which will fit in their missile shown. The question is whether we take that propaganda at face value, do we interpret the narrative exactly the way that North Korea is telling us to interpret it? Maybe all the facts are exactly like the North Koreans have set it up for us to be reported to, but then again we also need to trust that the information coming out of North Korean press releases is true if we do that. Of course we should be worried but we should also be skeptical of information which is only confirmed by North Korean press releases.
The range of possibilities is that they detonated a hydrogen bomb, or they detonated a larger version of the fission bombs they've already demonstrated. 100 kT is well within the limits of what a fission device can be created to deliver, the biggest fission device tested by the USA was 500 kT in 1952 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_King). So a 100 kT fission device is something that could be made with only late 1940's level technology, and it's direct extrapolation of things the NKer's are already known to have working.
In fact the first hydrogen bomb ever tested had a yield of 10 megatons and weighed 82 tons. The device they just tested is far closer in yield to 1950-era fission devices than it is to early hydrogen bombs. If they successfully went straight to miniaturized hydrogen bombs without needing to go through all the in-between development work the USA did to miniaturize their designs, that's ... kind of harder to believe than the idea that they're bullshitting. There's basically no way you could bypass all the development legwork and research without outright copying existing designs, and since this doesn't appear to be a copy, then I'd question that.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 10:12:35 am
Now, do they currently already have a fully functioning missile that could hit what they want to hit? I don't know, and neither do you.
But if they don't have it yet, then they're going to soon - all those tests are not just for show, they provide them with data on what is and what isn't working.
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 10:44:42 am
Old tech can still be pretty dangerous, but just calling anything like that "high tech" misses the point on how much ground has been covered since that stuff was actually groundbreaking in any way. Being able to replicate some feats from 60-70 years ago doesn't mean they're magically going to make fully-conceived weapons systems that cut it in the modern day. You also need a lot of resources to deploy weapons systems in any credible way, and NK's total fuel consumption is almost unbelievably low. Rockets even with nukes on them, or tanks, fighters and bombers aren't much use if you have virtually no fuel to power them.
EDIT: We can also look at the history of rocket design and work out where they are in comparision to the equivalent USA/USSR designs. Currently they have shittier specs than the USA's Atlas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM-65_Atlas) or USSR's R-7 (http://=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka) from 1957. However ... if you consider the size and yield of their claimed thermonuclear warhead, it's decades ahead of their known rocket design, and equivalent to roughly the USA's W80 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W80_(nuclear_warhead)), which was designed at Los Alamos and deployed in the 1980s. The logical problem here is that their rocket designer was made a general, yet his rockets aren't up to the 1957 standard. If they had a nuclear scientist capable of producing late-generation warheads equivalent to Reagan-era designs, why isn't he famous and made a general as well? A miniaturized h-bomb would be a much more amazing feat than the rockets they are producing. Without some additional clues, it's easier to believe that they detonated a large fission bomb like the USA did in 1952, and they're spinning it that it's a thermonuclear warhead while their guys are "working on it".
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2017, 11:25:47 am
Post by: misko27 on September 16, 2017, 11:44:21 am
Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.I don't think that's actually a sentence.
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2017, 01:24:32 pm
The "2" is on the "w" spot on this touchscreen keyboard.Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.I don't think that's actually a sentence.
I did, of course, mean to say "8n5343s58ngl6, 5ha5 b38ng 9n3 9f 5h3 049bl3ms 285h 5h3 53chn8call6 s7034894 G34man m8l85a46 mach8n3 8n 22W"
i.e. just my failure to use the 5603248534.
Post by: Antioch on September 16, 2017, 02:04:16 pm
Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.
Germans did not have a technically superior war machine in WW2.
The area's the Allies were ahead in were far more influential than those the Germans were ahead in.
Some examples: radar/sonar, decryption/encryption, nuclear weapons, proximity fuzes, anti biotics.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 16, 2017, 02:29:02 pm
I agree there's likely a huge amount of posturing and propaganda on NKs side. But let's not forget about the (whether or not intentional) propaganda of the West, which has been constantly painting NK as crazy and inept. They've proven to be able to achieve high-tech feats, which do require a technological and knowledge base larger than just one lucky guy doodling in a garage. Let's not deny that they can do this shit.Man, you can't just hop from "they've accomplished things" to "if they haven't accomplished every single thing they claim to have, they will soon." Especially not from a country that's claimed to have cured cancer already.
Now, do they currently already have a fully functioning missile that could hit what they want to hit? I don't know, and neither do you.
But if they don't have it yet, then they're going to soon - all those tests are not just for show, they provide them with data on what is and what isn't working.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2017, 02:35:06 pm
Man, you can't just hop from "they've accomplished things" to "if they haven't accomplished every single thing they claim to have, they will soon." Especially not from a country that's claimed to have cured cancer already.But they already have the technology in question! They're flying the rockets and they're exploding the bombs. Can you see the difference in the difficulty of perfecting what they already have and coming up with something they don't?
Post by: Reelya on September 16, 2017, 03:04:55 pm
According to sources, the quality of engineering output in North Korea is pretty suspect. The rockets they do have, have a very low level of reliability. And what sort of electronics do they produce? You do in fact need sophisticated electronics in advanced weapons. Just getting a rocket up doesn't automatically mean they have a good quality electronic industry.
Also, the bomb blast is well within the limits of fission bombs build ~65 years ago, so not necessarily a bomb that could actually go on said rocket. Remember these are the people who are also claiming they've just about reached numerical equality with the US military.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 16, 2017, 03:44:31 pm
Post by: Starver on September 16, 2017, 04:01:50 pm
Germans did not have a technically superior war machine in WW2.Second typo. Machines
Post by: TheDarkStar on September 16, 2017, 04:38:23 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 16, 2017, 04:57:55 pm
But they already have the technology in question! They're flying the rockets and they're exploding the bombs. Can you see the difference in the difficulty of perfecting what they already have and coming up with something they don't?Not on the scale you're suggesting. Incremental improvements to tech aren't a given once you have the base thing; you can't just say, well, we went to the moon already, clearly we'll have efficient moon colonies any day now. It takes time and effort and expertise to take a thing you have and make it a better thing, and in some cases it just doesn't work out; hence older techs frequently being replaced entirely rather than just refined upwards forever. "Rockets" is not a monolithic technology that you have or don't have; it's a vast field you can have greater or lesser success in various areas of.
Take conventional weaponry as an example. We know NK has guns. So clearly they have guns that surpass American equipment? Uhhhh, probably not. But they have guns! Clearly they should be able to refine them into ultramodern designs that match or exceed that of their enemies! But... it doesn't work that way. Having a thing doesn't guarantee you have the next step of a thing, that's actual work you need to be able and willing to do.
The obvious counterargument is that NK buys (or bought) its guns from elsewhere rather than designing and manufacturing them themselves, but you cannot with a straight face tell me cross-planet rocketry is easier to do than that. So either NK could have a modern and advanced conventional military but figures outdated Russian stuff is good enough, or you're glossing over at least as many steps to suggest they're doing just that with their long range missiles.
Post by: smjjames on September 16, 2017, 07:23:50 pm
Old tech can still be pretty dangerous
Exactly, a spear can still be plenty dangerous, regardless of how ancient the technology is.
Yes, I know, if you pile on armor, the spear becomes moot, but that's besides the point. (pun not intended). Fakeedit: Actually, that reminds me of an old Civilization series bug where it would be possible to defeat a tank with a squad of spearmen, heh.
They already have a couple satellites in space. Really, its not that unfeasible
Allegedly they do. And a nonfunctional (whether broken satellite or a piece of rocket) satellite is still a satellite.
Post by: Helgoland on September 16, 2017, 07:25:47 pm
Post by: smjjames on September 16, 2017, 07:28:16 pm
Bug? I always considered a realistic portrayal of the possibility of raids on, for example, the encampments or supply routes of the tank unit in question.
What bug are you talking about? And we're going REALLY offtopic here.
Also, Trump is going to be giving his first UN General Assembly address on Tuesday (https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/15/16301928/un-general-assembly-trump), and nobody really knows what he might say, other than hug allies and slap enemies according to Ambassador Nikki Haley. Here's to hoping he doesn't do something dumb to really piss off NK.
Post by: Helgoland on September 16, 2017, 08:01:39 pm
Fakeedit: Actually, that reminds me of an old Civilization series bug where it would be possible to defeat a tank with a squad of spearmen, heh.This one. Maybe you're getting old ;)
Post by: smjjames on September 16, 2017, 08:11:49 pm
Post by: Reelya on September 17, 2017, 05:33:26 am
Fakeedit: Actually, that reminds me of an old Civilization series bug where it would be possible to defeat a tank with a squad of spearmen, heh.This one. Maybe you're getting old ;)
That assumes that the spearmen charge directly at the tank. Since combat in Civ is completely abstract and the regions are huge we don't know what happened. All we know is that the tank moved into an e.g. the same city that also contained the spearmen, then the spearmen managed to disable the tank. Assuming some infantry could never outwit a tank in any terrain is actually a huge assumption.
Post by: Starver on September 17, 2017, 06:44:28 am
But just sending a single tank into (say) an urban area, without (ideally non-tank, though maybe APC-held) backup forces is tantamount to multiple suicides.
See also Fougasse emplacements (could be operated by spearmen!) and, finally sorta back on-topic, look up North Korean hero Li Su-Bok.
1 That was before anyone started to insist that a 'tank' must be a capable of being a 'tank killer' as well as armoured and mobile enough to not be something else. Otherwise it's just 'armoured vehicle', 'mobile artillery', 'pillbox', etc. But Civ played it safe anyway, with 'Armour'. Which looks like a tank.
Post by: Akura on September 17, 2017, 06:56:31 am
I wonder if that's what North Korea will do. Send so many of their troops on a nuclear attack to try and reuse the nuke.
Post by: wierd on September 17, 2017, 08:01:37 am
Post by: Reelya on September 17, 2017, 08:14:19 am
Post by: Helgoland on September 17, 2017, 08:45:22 am
Post by: smjjames on September 17, 2017, 09:24:47 am
Post by: Akura on September 17, 2017, 11:16:21 am
Mostly they're only good for taking out deep bunkers.
Post by: smjjames on September 17, 2017, 11:23:17 am
Pretty much the only thing we have that we can actually perform orbital bombardment with are Rods from God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment): tungsten carbide rods dropped from orbit. The upside is that they're entirely legal, as they are technically conventional munitions(damage is entirely kinetic, they don't even explode) and as such the Outer Space Treaty doesn't cover them. The downside is that they're 20 feet long and 9-10 tons each, so it's extremely difficult to get them into orbit to begin with, so it's unlikely NK could deploy them. I don't think the US or anyone else even uses them. Maybe if we got off our asses and built a space elevator already...
Mostly they're only good for taking out deep bunkers.
*AHEM* You can't 'drop' something from orbit, if you let go of something in orbit, it's going to stay in orbit, just not attached to you. Unless you want to let the atmosphere drag it down in a reasonable time, you'd have to use some sort of propellant to slow it down and bring it out of orbit.
Post by: Starver on September 17, 2017, 11:54:06 am
There's a different set of requirements of you go further out there to use masses already in space, but still horribly horrible unless you're finding a convenient nudgable Earth-crosser to make the best use of your capabilities to redirectnsubtly. When NK goes that far, though, we'll likely know about it with time to spare to do whatever we need to do to nudge back, physically, militarily or politically.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 17, 2017, 12:05:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 17, 2017, 12:32:45 pm
He's probably also seen twitter, unless there's no twitter in Switzerland, which I concede is plausible.
Post by: Starver on September 17, 2017, 12:57:30 pm
He's probably also seen twitter, unless there's no twitter in Switzerland, which I concede is plausible.There was no Twitter in Switzerland prior to 2002 (because there was no Twitter anywhere until 2006ish), and it seems KJu was back in Pyongyang after 2002, at a cursory glance at the speculation about how he lived until the death of his father.
I still imagine he's seen Twiter, unless he's been utterly cottonwooled by his cadre of generals/advisors, but I don't know how likely it is it's been anything more than a carefully shepherded demonstration of what the Rest Of The World(/Those Crazy Yankees) are doing that indicates just how superior his own ego deserves to be.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 17, 2017, 03:27:51 pm
Apparently it mostly exists to be a census and to catch the really unwise dissidents.Based on the poster, I'm curious if it's not also intended as a sort of teambuilding/affirming exercise, sort of akin to American schoolchildren reciting the pledge of allegiance.
Regarding Twitter, do we know anything about upper-echelon NK internet access? It feels bizarre to think they wouldn't have and routinely use it, but it's a bizarre place.
Post by: Helgoland on September 17, 2017, 03:40:34 pm
Post by: Starver on September 17, 2017, 04:36:31 pm
It seems to be made available for high-ranking officials (which would include Supreme Leader), the cybercrimes cadre (esp. those gaining foreign currency through automated game-grinding and out-of-game object selling) and foreigners like journalists (one assumes that this is monitored to the max). There's some very limited official national use made of the connection, though, with serious examinations of the NK infrastructure showing very few official IPs and hardly any on-shore web presence. Most NKians wouldn't even be aware of the Internet, given the population psychological and educational lock-down. Probably most who do shouldn't know about it, but will know of it only as rumour anyway.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 21, 2017, 06:07:44 pm
Spoiler: this day in history (click to show/hide)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 21, 2017, 06:22:16 pm
Post by: martinuzz on September 22, 2017, 02:12:07 am
He called the speech "the most insulting declaration of war in history", and promised that the US "will pay the greatest price for the speech of a mentally retarded president".
"He is unfit to be a president, a villain, a gangster that likes playing with fire, most certainly not a president. A scared dog barks louder than Trump", Kim said.
Meanwhile the NK minister of foreign affairs says that NK will possibly respond to the declaration of war by testing a hydrogen bomb "like never seen before" over the Pacific Ocean.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 22, 2017, 02:32:54 am
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 22, 2017, 08:07:55 am
How can it be a declaration of war when we're technically already still at war? Checkmate, almost everyone born after the Korean War.
Fixed that for you.
Post by: Tiruin on September 22, 2017, 09:16:21 am
Kim Young One responded to Trump's speech at the UNGA.
He called the speech "the most insulting declaration of war in history", and promised that the US "will pay the greatest price for the speech of a mentally retarded president".
"He is unfit to be a president, a villain, a gangster that likes playing with fire, most certainly not a president. A scared dog barks louder than Trump", Kim said.
Meanwhile the NK minister of foreign affairs says that NK will possibly respond to the declaration of war by testing a hydrogen bomb "like never seen before" over the Pacific Ocean.
His response is very scary, but well written (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/world/asia/kim-jong-un-trump.html)- I mean...
Mostly along these lines. :-\How can it be a declaration of war when we're technically already still at war? Checkmate, almost everyone born after the Korean War.
Fixed that for you.
I'm unsure how the feeling of reading certain communication styles are for native speakers, but in how familiar we are here with how things are said...
Quote
His remarks which described the U.S. option through straightforward expression of his will have convinced me, rather than frightening or stopping me, that the path I chose is correct and that it is the one I have to follow to the last.This is frightening ._.
But he is on point in describing how badly Trump spoke to an international audience.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2017, 09:26:23 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 22, 2017, 09:42:15 am
Post by: IronyOwl on September 22, 2017, 02:11:50 pm
His response is very scary, but well written (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/world/asia/kim-jong-un-trump.html)- I mean...This is still rather overblown and hypocritical, but much more coherent than I was expecting. "A scared dog barks louder" is hilarious coming from NK, but still a coherent analogy rather than calling a foreign leader names again.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 22, 2017, 03:39:16 pm
Post by: Antioch on September 22, 2017, 05:34:34 pm
Post by: Reelya on September 22, 2017, 05:39:02 pm
It is rather frighting that the leaders of 2 nuclear armed states have devolved into something that looks like 2 internet trolls insulting each other.
The way it's heading is that Russia and China are looking like the only sane ones with nukes these days. It's going to be a sad day when Putin is consider the moderate voice of reason in international nuclear standoffs.
Post by: SaberToothTiger on September 23, 2017, 03:17:35 am
i am amused moreso by the fact that I agree with him
Post by: Reelya on September 23, 2017, 03:30:44 am
Then you have their foreign policy. They're scaring the literal shit out of everyone around them. But think about it, most everyone already despised them and wanted regime change. Post-Iraq, we've seen many pre-existing dictatorships toppled. A nuclear deterrent makes that much less likely. However, it's the "madman strategy". You need to be convincing that you're nuts enough to blow everyone the fuck up or the strategy doesn't work.
In fact, so much of their budget is directed at this one thing, missile and nuclear program, that it shows a single-minded determination and one-track focus, rather than a "deranged" program of military expansion. The idea of a nation with less than 1% of the US's military budget having locally-designed ICBMs is frankly preposterous. The sheer fact that it even seems plausible for them to be achieving this shows how much detailed planning they've done here.
Post by: Quarque on September 23, 2017, 04:46:49 am
Whether it's correct to call Kim Jong Un deranged depends on whether his actions achieve his goals. He's the top of the pile in North Korea, which isn't a state he created. The craziness that is North Korea isn't his creation. He's doing what's needed to stay on top of that pile, which is sane no matter how much fucked up shit you need to do to maintain that. He'd probably be killed if he let go of total control of power.
Well I partly agree, he has good reason to be paranoid and rule by fear, as he was taught by his father. Even so, I do believe he's being more extreme than needed to stay in power. He's just a spoiled young man as I see it, but everyone has treated him like a god for his whole life and expects him to do miracles. That's not an excuse, but I don't think he is really any more evil than a school bully - just more powerful.
So.. I haven't read the whole thread, it's grown rather long.. have we found the solution to the crisis yet? :P
Post by: SaberToothTiger on September 23, 2017, 05:42:04 am
Post by: wierd on September 23, 2017, 05:54:57 am
If Kimmy-Kims decides to set us up the bomb, all his base will belong to us in short order. The US military has the effective might to turn the entirety of NK into a smoldering ruin without ever sending a single foot soldier on the ground, which is what was the major obstacle was during the korean war.
We have autonomous weapons now that could rip that place apart, and leave not a single person alive. If he opens that can of worms, he is a fucking idiot.
Post by: Antioch on September 23, 2017, 07:14:17 am
uhm....
If Kimmy-Kims decides to set us up the bomb, all his base will belong to us in short order. The US military has the effective might to turn the entirety of NK into a smoldering ruin without ever sending a single foot soldier on the ground, which is what was the major obstacle was during the korean war.
We have autonomous weapons now that could rip that place apart, and leave not a single person alive. If he opens that can of worms, he is a fucking idiot.
And what if he is?
Or what if Trump is?
Post by: TheDarkStar on September 23, 2017, 08:21:52 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 23, 2017, 08:45:15 am
Then we get lots of dead South Koreans (from conventional weapons, especially artillery pointed at Seoul), probably lots of dead North Koreans (but not as many, maybe only ones at military bases?), and millions of North Korean refugees.
And the way things are going probably California.
Post by: TheDarkStar on September 23, 2017, 08:58:53 am
Then we get lots of dead South Koreans (from conventional weapons, especially artillery pointed at Seoul), probably lots of dead North Koreans (but not as many, maybe only ones at military bases?), and millions of North Korean refugees.
And the way things are going probably California.
Not if war occurs in the short term (the next few years). NK still has a long ways to go to get accurate and usable ICBMs and I doubt that NK could even nuke SK successfully right now. However, they have tons of artillery pointed at SK's capitol and that's one of the reasons why people are so hesitant to intervene militarily.
Post by: MorleyDev on September 23, 2017, 09:02:53 am
Hostage taking is often a no-win scenario for the hostage taker though, even at the national level. Because as soon as they shoot the hostage, they're taken out. As soon as the powers-that-be stop caring about the hostages more than taking them out, they're taken out.
Post by: smjjames on September 23, 2017, 09:24:23 am
Kim Young One responded to Trump's speech at the UNGA.
He called the speech "the most insulting declaration of war in history", and promised that the US "will pay the greatest price for the speech of a mentally retarded president".
"He is unfit to be a president, a villain, a gangster that likes playing with fire, most certainly not a president. A scared dog barks louder than Trump", Kim said.
Meanwhile the NK minister of foreign affairs says that NK will possibly respond to the declaration of war by testing a hydrogen bomb "like never seen before" over the Pacific Ocean.
His response is very scary, but well written (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/world/asia/kim-jong-un-trump.html)- I mean...Mostly along these lines. :-\How can it be a declaration of war when we're technically already still at war? Checkmate, almost everyone born after the Korean War.
Fixed that for you.
I'm unsure how the feeling of reading certain communication styles are for native speakers, but in how familiar we are here with how things are said...QuoteHis remarks which described the U.S. option through straightforward expression of his will have convinced me, rather than frightening or stopping me, that the path I chose is correct and that it is the one I have to follow to the last.This is frightening ._.
But he is on point in describing how badly Trump spoke to an international audience.
It also appears to be the first time any NK leader directly issued a statement under his own name. It's a strange day when NK is advising the US President how to behave.
As for the threat to explode a nuke on or above the Pacific Ocean (no specific location given), it'd be the first aboveground test since 1963, though NK never signed the treaty that stopped those anyway.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 23, 2017, 11:11:44 pm
In fact, so much of their budget is directed at this one thing, missile and nuclear program, that it shows a single-minded determination and one-track focus, rather than a "deranged" program of military expansion. The idea of a nation with less than 1% of the US's military budget having locally-designed ICBMs is frankly preposterous. The sheer fact that it even seems plausible for them to be achieving this shows how much detailed planning they've done here.I'm gonna give you all three points, but I hadn't super considered this one in particular. You don't tend to view NK as competent in pretty much any regard, but this is actually pretty impressive given what they've got to work with.
A pity they're not quite so creative when it comes to everything else, but I guess being surrounded by enemies does that to you.
So.. I haven't read the whole thread, it's grown rather long.. have we found the solution to the crisis yet? :PI'm quite certain we have, but it was far too ridiculous and specific for me to remember.
uhm....Hence the focus on loudly threatening to do so rather than quietly building up the force to actually do so. The point isn't to damage the US/world, it's to be capable enough of doing so that the US/world sees messing with them as a net loss.
If Kimmy-Kims decides to set us up the bomb, all his base will belong to us in short order. The US military has the effective might to turn the entirety of NK into a smoldering ruin without ever sending a single foot soldier on the ground, which is what was the major obstacle was during the korean war.
We have autonomous weapons now that could rip that place apart, and leave not a single person alive. If he opens that can of worms, he is a fucking idiot.
Post by: wierd on September 24, 2017, 02:49:21 am
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/352107-trump-on-nk-nuclear-threats-they-wont-be-around-much-longer
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2017, 08:57:59 am
Well, this is escalating quickly...
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/352107-trump-on-nk-nuclear-threats-they-wont-be-around-much-longer
It's probably a given that if NK does detonate a nuke over the Pacific, there will be drastic things happening. Whether Trump acts on it or it's more empty bluster remains to be seen. Either way, the rhetorical war is escalating. How To Start A Nuclear War 101.
Post by: redwallzyl on September 24, 2017, 09:00:05 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 24, 2017, 09:02:59 am
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2017, 09:10:05 am
Depending on where the missile ends up detonating, it could be spun as NK firing the first shot in a hot war.
Post by: martinuzz on September 24, 2017, 09:11:32 am
There's a reason everyone has agreed to stop doing aboveground tests.
Post by: Antioch on September 24, 2017, 09:22:52 am
I wonder what would happen if trump actually ordered an attack. would the military actually listen to such an obviously idiotic order?
Is it idiotic?
Is the better tactic to just let NK develop more nuclear weapons and missiles and just "hope" the problem will go away?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 24, 2017, 09:25:42 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 24, 2017, 09:56:41 am
Geopolitics is not a simple game. You cannot just kill your problems and hope to live.Sure it is. (http://store.steampowered.com/app/1520/DEFCON/)
Post by: Reelya on September 24, 2017, 10:13:02 am
Is the better tactic to just let NK develop more nuclear weapons and missiles and just "hope" the problem will go away?
The main "problem" is that North Korea will have increased bargaining power after having the nukes than before. Anyone who fires nukes at other people knows they will be nuked back instantly, killing their own families and loved ones. The point of having the nukes is exemplified by e.g. Ghandi from Civilization 1 "my words are backed by nuclear weapons!". Firing the nukes ensures your own destruction. It's not the goal.
Also ... North Korea consumes just 17,000 oil barrels a day in comparison to South Korea's 2.4 million barrels a day. And recently, China announced sanctions cutting that by 2/3rds. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-china-oil-sanctions-nuclear-threat-missiles-textiles-pyongyang-donald-trump-a7962611.html) With so little fuel being consumed then you'd have to estimate that they in fact have a miniscule amount of operational conventional forces. Probably the reason they're going for a nuclear deterrent is because of that fact. A nuclear bomb sitting in a stockpile is a more credible threat and cheaper to maintain than a large conventional armed force. Just having the rockets and the warheads is a deterrent, even if you don't mount the warheads on the rockets. You just have to let people believe that it's possible that you do have some mounted.
Post by: Strife26 on September 24, 2017, 12:24:31 pm
The military is bound by oath to obey the lawfully given orders of the Commander-In-Chief. That said, in extremis there exists both the possibility of the Cabinet declaring the President mentally unfit to govern and the possibility of military figures "falling on their swords", as Strife would put it.
That's exactly how'd I put it, in fact. In extremis, it wouldn't actually have to be the Cabinet declaring a 25th situation. There's basically no existing precedent, so exactly who could hunker down and wait for a 25th opinion is unknown.
Settling down to an unknown number of years of deterrence is certainly an attractive option, but remember that the butcher bill for the failure of deterrence increases with each technological improvement of North Korea.
Post by: Quarque on September 24, 2017, 12:35:45 pm
Given the huge pile of doomsday weapons that the USA are maintaining, it is more than a little bit hypocritical to point the finger at North Korea and claim that possession of the doomsday weapons is a threat. I mean, it is, but if anyone could lead us by giving the good example, it is the US.
Yes, I know we survived some 60 years under the threat of nuclear war and it did not happen. But sooner or later, it will. Weapons are not a credible threat if you never use them. A cold war is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game)), and it is only a matter of time before tensions escalate and neither side wants to yield. That will result in a nuclear war, even no one wants it.
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2017, 12:46:43 pm
And then there would have to be some sort of agency that can enforce with needle and razor sharp teeth a treaty to prevent countries from building nukes, even in secret.
Not saying that it's impossible, just that we have a long way to go before complete de-nuclearization and keeping it that way. Either that or someone develops a missile defense system that can shoot down ICBMs with 99% accuracy in a wartime scenario which would defuse the MAD from the nukes. Sort of like Iron Dome is for Israel, except for ICBMs.
Post by: Quarque on September 24, 2017, 01:19:00 pm
Disarmament would require ALL of the countries to agree to that and also trust each other not to cheat. Sure, the US and Russia agreed to lower their stockpiles, but that was an agreement between two superpowers who had the vast majority of nukes.
I know it is hard. I still think it is our only hope. Russia and the US still own the largest stockpiles, by far; arguably they are still the only nations that can literally kill off humanity (although it is hard to tell how bad a nuclear winter would be, exactly).
If those two nations at least continued their efforts to lower their stockpiles, that would be a start. It seems to me that Russia is the more cooperative side at this moment.
Post by: Antioch on September 24, 2017, 01:52:21 pm
We (as in, humans) are not safe as long as one country has nuclear weapons. In the long run, the only way we can survive is step-by-step disarmament of all countries.
Given the huge pile of doomsday weapons that the USA are maintaining, it is more than a little bit hypocritical to point the finger at North Korea and claim that possession of the doomsday weapons is a threat. I mean, it is, but if anyone could lead us by giving the good example, it is the US.
Yes, I know we survived some 60 years under the threat of nuclear war and it did not happen. But sooner or later, it will. Weapons are not a credible threat if you never use them. A cold war is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game)), and it is only a matter of time before tensions escalate and neither side wants to yield. That will result in a nuclear war, even no one wants it.
Total disarmament is a horrible idea. It creates the incentive to develop the weapons in secret and hold the world hostage with them.
Limited proliferation is the only viable option.
Post by: Strife26 on September 24, 2017, 02:56:19 pm
Disarmament would require ALL of the countries to agree to that and also trust each other not to cheat. Sure, the US and Russia agreed to lower their stockpiles, but that was an agreement between two superpowers who had the vast majority of nukes.
I know it is hard. I still think it is our only hope. Russia and the US still own the largest stockpiles, by far; arguably they are still the only nations that can literally kill off humanity (although it is hard to tell how bad a nuclear winter would be, exactly).
If those two nations at least continued their efforts to lower their stockpiles, that would be a start. It seems to me that Russia is the more cooperative side at this moment.
Nah, there's no reason to worry about it. After all, the Kellogg Brian Pact, war is banned as a tool of national policy.
Post by: Culise on September 24, 2017, 09:42:34 pm
Ah, but that issue's easily solved. We simply stopped declaring war. After all, wasn't it Clausewitz who said, "Police actions are merely a continuation of politics by other means"? :PDisarmament would require ALL of the countries to agree to that and also trust each other not to cheat. Sure, the US and Russia agreed to lower their stockpiles, but that was an agreement between two superpowers who had the vast majority of nukes.
I know it is hard. I still think it is our only hope. Russia and the US still own the largest stockpiles, by far; arguably they are still the only nations that can literally kill off humanity (although it is hard to tell how bad a nuclear winter would be, exactly).
If those two nations at least continued their efforts to lower their stockpiles, that would be a start. It seems to me that Russia is the more cooperative side at this moment.
Nah, there's no reason to worry about it. After all, the Kellogg Brian Pact, war is banned as a tool of national policy.
Post by: Strife26 on September 25, 2017, 08:46:29 am
Post by: martinuzz on September 25, 2017, 09:22:02 am
On the 22nd of october, the Japanese population will vote.
Post by: MorleyDev on September 25, 2017, 10:12:12 am
Meanwhile: North Korea accuses US of declaring war, reserves the right to shoot down US bombers. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41391978?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central)
Post by: Quarque on September 25, 2017, 10:58:52 am
Total disarmament is a horrible idea. It creates the incentive to develop the weapons in secret and hold the world hostage with them.
Limited proliferation is the only viable option.
What sort of proliferation do you mean by 'limited'? Which countries should have nuclear weapons, then, and how many of them should they have?
At the moment, the US and Russia each have about 7.000 nukes.
Post by: Culise on September 25, 2017, 01:07:47 pm
Prime Minister Abe of Japan has decreed early elections, in the hopes of gaining a stronger electoral mandate to further his wishes to establish a stronger Japanese military, in response to the North Korean threats.I suspect strongly that the fact that the opposition is in complete, but temporary disarray at the moment also played a significant role. The DP, SDP, and LP were all in preliminary talks to form a joint parliamentary group that could pose a significant challenge to the LDP, but the announcement of early elections essentially cut them off at the pass as they all scramble to secure their own seats. With the mayor of Tokyo forming her own new party to challenge all comers, it looks like there could be potential for an interesting election.
On the 22nd of october, the Japanese population will vote.
That said, somehow, "defeat from the jaws of victory" seems to come to mind. The LDP and Komeito combined already control enough of the Diet to pass constitutional reforms, after all.
Post by: Antioch on September 25, 2017, 01:36:32 pm
Total disarmament is a horrible idea. It creates the incentive to develop the weapons in secret and hold the world hostage with them.
Limited proliferation is the only viable option.
What sort of proliferation do you mean by 'limited'? Which countries should have nuclear weapons, then, and how many of them should they have?
At the moment, the US and Russia each have about 7.000 nukes.
The countries of the original non proliferation treaty. And unfortunately the countries that we can't realistically let give up their nukes like India and Pakistan. I don't think the number of warheads per country is that interesting necessarily.
Post by: Madman198237 on September 25, 2017, 02:25:40 pm
Basically, the nuclear standoff between the US and Russia is perhaps the biggest reason why we've not seen another nuclear strike since Nagasaki. Because now, if you're willing to destroy your neighbor(s), you've got to remember that there are two bigger nations willing to cooperate to kill you off.
There's a variety of reasons, but MAD is a MUCH safer policy that "Oh yeah just don't anybody make them, OK?". It's not "safe" according to most peoples' rules, but the rules are a *bit* different when you change scales like that.
Post by: MorleyDev on September 25, 2017, 02:40:32 pm
So if any rogue nation nukes another nation, the entire rest of the world is going to come down on that nation and destroy them via conventional means, the actual risk from a nuke is fairly low so long as traditional military alliances are maintained between the super-powers without the 'super blocks' forming that led to WW1. Basically, this allows there to still be Assured Destruction without Mutually Assured Destruction.
That said, somehow, "defeat from the jaws of victory" seems to come to mind. The LDP and Komeito combined already control enough of the Diet to pass constitutional reforms, after all.
Seriously, were they not paying attention to when another G7 government tried this tactic mere months ago? History usually takes *time* to repeat itself, right?
Post by: Madman198237 on September 25, 2017, 02:49:45 pm
There's a law of thermodynamics against that somewhere, I'm sure.
((And the funny part is that if you make one or two loose assumptions you can claim that the second law of thermodynamics is the reason that there is no such thing as a perfectly good government))
Post by: wierd on September 25, 2017, 02:50:27 pm
See for instance, WWI. The reason there even WAS a WWI, was BECAUSE of such mutual defense, mutual aggression agreements. It is what turned an angry (and stupid) decision by a single monarchy, into a conflict that brought the world to its knees.
Post by: Madman198237 on September 25, 2017, 02:56:18 pm
What you are discussing is NOT a form of MAD. There was NO threat of complete annihilation (That is not how European wars worked) but instead a deterrent of strength---everyone was trying to get enough allies to make attacking them a thoroughly uninviting prospect. And so when the powder trail got lit, the whole keg went off.
MAD has never, as I have ever heard it, been a term applied to conventional warfare, because barring good ol' fashioned Roman salt-the-earth tactics, no means of waging war in all of human history has involved such total and immediate destruction without care for collateral damage, and no tactic has ever resulted in a BYPRODUCT of poisoning the area for decades.
Post by: MorleyDev on September 25, 2017, 02:58:33 pm
(Give Trump and Kim some time though, I'm sure they'll fix that).
Also, is it just me or are the DPRK and Ameripol threads merging into one being?
Post by: Madman198237 on September 25, 2017, 03:03:19 pm
Why? Defense networks and saturation attacks. If you fire off more missiles that they can stop, you...um....technically we call this winning, but since you're nothing more than a pile of radioactive ash you can't celebrate the fact that you condemned another billion people to varying degrees of agonizing death.
So, in short, MAD is very much still a thing simply because of the strategies of nuclear war.
So don't shoot the dumb things off, please. I understand that we do, in fact, have plenty of elite spec-ops who should be very capable of taking out problematic leaders.
I mean, seriously. It's not like it's THAT big of a diplomatic issue if you slip some spec-ops guys in through the NK-China border and have them kill a lot of NK officials, is it?
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 26, 2017, 12:01:05 am
Total disarmament is a horrible idea. It creates the incentive to develop the weapons in secret and hold the world hostage with them.
Limited proliferation is the only viable option.
What sort of proliferation do you mean by 'limited'? Which countries should have nuclear weapons, then, and how many of them should they have?
At the moment, the US and Russia each have about 7.000 nukes.
Perhaps every country should have about 400 or so? That should be just enough that everyone can equally destroy the world.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 26, 2017, 12:16:17 am
Post by: smjjames on September 26, 2017, 01:43:27 am
The problem with mutually assured destruction (as opposed to MAD, as it directly implies conventional war) is that it has been proven to be capable of failing, and failing spectacularly.
See for instance, WWI. The reason there even WAS a WWI, was BECAUSE of such mutual defense, mutual aggression agreements. It is what turned an angry (and stupid) decision by a single monarchy, into a conflict that brought the world to its knees.
Um, no, the conventional war MAD would be a much stronger power curbstomping something very weak, and even then, the much weaker power can just change to guerrilla tactics, which have historically proven to be extremely effective against something that would otherwise curbstomp them. Such tactics go back to prehistory.
The difference between conventional warfare MAD and nuclear MAD is that conventional warfare is a whole lot of tactics and strategies while nuclear warfare is just variants of "shoot nuke at x location".
Besides, all of the major players in WWI were more or less evenly matched.
Also, is it just me or are the DPRK and Ameripol threads merging into one being?
It happens sometimes with MidEast politics when American politics gets intertwined.
Well, the issue is that ANY release of nuclear weapons by the major powers (Against each other or any of the nations with a defend-me! treaty) is going to result in complete destruction of a lot of the planet, if not the crippling of human culture as it exists today.
Why? Defense networks and saturation attacks. If you fire off more missiles that they can stop, you...um....technically we call this winning, but since you're nothing more than a pile of radioactive ash you can't celebrate the fact that you condemned another billion people to varying degrees of agonizing death.
So, in short, MAD is very much still a thing simply because of the strategies of nuclear war.
So don't shoot the dumb things off, please. I understand that we do, in fact, have plenty of elite spec-ops who should be very capable of taking out problematic leaders.
I mean, seriously. It's not like it's THAT big of a diplomatic issue if you slip some spec-ops guys in through the NK-China border and have them kill a lot of NK officials, is it?
You're SERIOUSLY underestimating how much of a suicide mission that would be, and there are a billion ways for things to go wrong. Besides, we have a policy of not assassinating leaders of other countries via spec ops. If anybody was going to actually try to do that, it should be the South Koreans as they're claiming to have a specialized unit just for assassinating the leader of NK.
Post by: Starver on September 26, 2017, 03:20:57 am
One nuke for each and every human, gifted to them at birth. Each person still has to work out the delivery method themselves, though. Giving your nuke to some other person or authority is an offence punishable by nuking.Individual ankle-tags, keyed by radio to a given nuke, on its own trolley, that you are allowed to set off by removing the otherwise tamper-free tag (requires trivial, but deliberate, removal process), or going out of range ('to be defined') of the pet nuke.
Carry-On policies and luggage allowances of airlines would need adjustment, of course, but I think that's the only major issue..!
Post by: wierd on September 26, 2017, 03:44:18 am
One nuke for each and every human, gifted to them at birth. Each person still has to work out the delivery method themselves, though. Giving your nuke to some other person or authority is an offence punishable by nuking.Individual ankle-tags, keyed by radio to a given nuke, on its own trolley, that you are allowed to set off by removing the otherwise tamper-free tag (requires trivial, but deliberate, removal process), or going out of range ('to be defined') of the pet nuke.
Carry-On policies and luggage allowances of airlines would need adjustment, of course, but I think that's the only major issue..!
Limited time offer: 50% off on new Nike BOOM sneakers, the first and only thermonuclear footwear approved by the FAA!
Post by: Madman198237 on September 26, 2017, 12:09:40 pm
I do not recommend assassinations, for MANY obvious reasons.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 26, 2017, 05:58:36 pm
Smjj, you appear to have missed my INCREDIBLY sarcastic and facetious tone.
I do not recommend assassinations, for MANY obvious reasons.
Try typing Kappa next time. (https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/25/1.0)
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 08, 2017, 03:41:33 am
Post by: Reelya on October 08, 2017, 03:43:40 am
Post by: Antioch on October 08, 2017, 04:51:29 am
I am just glad that things have been calm or the last few days, I wonder if any other threads mention nuclear weapons as often as this one does.
Uh, they haven't been though?
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/07/politics/trump-north-korea-negotiations-tweet/index.html
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 08, 2017, 04:55:40 am
It's a bad sign when the good news is that no world power has threatened to nuke each other for the last few days, so we're getting a break.annnnd you've made it into my signature, congratulations.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 09, 2017, 01:48:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2017, 06:33:53 am
So it turns out that KJU has a sister. She's part of his goverment. Also kind of cute, actuallyAnd apparently she's got huge hairy balls, with a tiny little pen.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on October 09, 2017, 06:38:50 pm
Post by: Strife26 on October 09, 2017, 06:40:10 pm
Post by: Descan on October 09, 2017, 09:37:21 pm
Post by: Strife26 on October 09, 2017, 09:54:45 pm
Post by: 90908 on October 09, 2017, 10:00:31 pm
What hairy balls?Those Hairy Balls™
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2017, 10:07:54 pm
you're still not supposed to notice her hairy balls!These might be The Great Leader's. She could be just holding his hairy balls.
Post by: Teneb on October 09, 2017, 10:12:53 pm
Vile capitalist propaganda! Glorious Leader has the smoothest, most perfect balls ever! She is clearly holding those of an enemy for purposes of intimidation.you're still not supposed to notice her hairy balls!These might be The Great Leader's. She could be just holding his hairy balls.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 09, 2017, 11:02:36 pm
Post by: Pwnzerfaust on October 09, 2017, 11:46:39 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 09, 2017, 11:49:59 pm
Post by: Trekkin on October 09, 2017, 11:58:17 pm
B-but then how is he supposed to make more Kims?
The stork brings them, of course.
Then Kim shoots the stork down from fifty thousand yards in a single shot and rushes to catch the baby in the nick of time.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 10, 2017, 02:05:20 am
B-but then how is he supposed to make more Kims?
The stork brings them, of course.
Then Kim shoots the stork down from fifty thousand yards in a single shot and rushes to catch the baby in the nick of time.
How come noone caught Kim Jong Un then?
Post by: Teneb on October 10, 2017, 05:41:38 am
He caught himself.B-but then how is he supposed to make more Kims?
The stork brings them, of course.
Then Kim shoots the stork down from fifty thousand yards in a single shot and rushes to catch the baby in the nick of time.
How come noone caught Kim Jong Un then?
Post by: martinuzz on October 10, 2017, 06:35:09 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/sunday/nuclear-north-korea.html
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 10, 2017, 09:38:23 am
Post by: bloop_bleep on October 10, 2017, 12:04:51 pm
Post by: martinuzz on October 10, 2017, 12:42:52 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 11, 2017, 06:57:56 am
Post by: smjjames on October 16, 2017, 02:43:32 pm
Bit surprising that they'd straight up admit that they don't (or don't think they do) have a missile that can confidently reach the east coast of the US. Either way, them rejecting diplomacy doesn't bode well for everybody.
Post by: Trekkin on October 16, 2017, 02:49:33 pm
They just don't have the Russians' kompromat to use, so they fall back on this.
Post by: Starver on October 16, 2017, 07:45:06 pm
Post by: smjjames on October 17, 2017, 12:27:46 pm
Post by: Reelya on October 31, 2017, 09:20:12 am
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/10/31/200-dead-tunnel-accident-north-korea-nuclear-test-site-report
Apparently when they did that big nuclear test, the place collapsed killing 200 of their people.
Post by: smjjames on October 31, 2017, 09:27:36 am
Post by: Reelya on October 31, 2017, 09:28:17 am
Also consider that NK is a very small nation, if you look at that propotional to their size, the death toll is similar to 9/11. I'm guessing they lost some pretty important people from their nuclear program in that accident, too, which is one reason they've been so quiet about it.
Post by: smjjames on October 31, 2017, 09:35:20 am
Post by: Reelya on October 31, 2017, 09:37:35 am
EDIT: just note however, that some news articles are giving conflicting dates for when this occured, they don't agree on whether it was september or october right now, so we'll know more later. Still, it's notable because the scale of such an accident given NK's size is huge and would probably be a major blow to their program.
Post by: smjjames on October 31, 2017, 09:56:41 am
Post by: Descan on October 31, 2017, 03:57:03 pm
I mean, I doubt the Kimmy would accept it; if for no other reason than it's a secret ("secret") nuclear test facility and they wouldn't want the Americans to learn about their cutting edge gerbil-on-treadmills power station technology (to go along with their early-modern ICBM tech; Ahhh, Norky priorities! "Nuke the world, but what's a lightbulb?") but it's a cheap way to gain diplomatic points just to *offer,* innit? Play The Game and all that.
Post by: smjjames on October 31, 2017, 04:05:44 pm
Also, diplomatic outreach would have been more easily done when it happened, not two months later. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try, even if it does conflict with their domestic narrative.
Post by: Descan on October 31, 2017, 04:07:46 pm
And it's kind of hard to do diplomatic outreach for an accident or incident at the time it happened, if nobody knows the incident even occured.
Post by: Reelya on October 31, 2017, 04:22:31 pm
Post by: Starver on October 31, 2017, 04:37:28 pm
So, Brains and Gordon with Virgil. I'd let Tintin go in as well (very competent, much underused), but she'd probably end up getting kidnapped during the tenser moments of the rescue (though not if The Hood is involved, family and all), and FAB1 would probably need to used to solve that problem and clear up the multi-pronged climax.
(At last! My time spent watching Thunderbirds as a boy, and mentally cataloguing their whole equipment lists turns out not to be as complete a waste of time as my parents told me it would be!)
Post by: Descan on October 31, 2017, 05:05:24 pm
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on November 02, 2017, 04:41:47 pm
Send in International Rescue anyway! Thunderbird 2 should have a pod or two capable of helping. There's the Mole and that rock-crusher vehicle, and it seems most of their vehicles are hermetically sealed, plus they also have various suits capable of withstanding heat, hazardous fumes, even radiation (which was handy, due to the heavy use of nuclear engines in their own vehicles, military craft, spacecraft, even civilian transportation and logging/road-construction vehicles...).wut.
So, Brains and Gordon with Virgil. I'd let Tintin go in as well (very competent, much underused), but she'd probably end up getting kidnapped during the tenser moments of the rescue (though not if The Hood is involved, family and all), and FAB1 would probably need to used to solve that problem and clear up the multi-pronged climax.
(At last! My time spent watching Thunderbirds as a boy, and mentally cataloguing their whole equipment lists turns out not to be as complete a waste of time as my parents told me it would be!)
Post by: Starver on November 02, 2017, 06:25:12 pm
Really, a cultural icon of a series. Despite/because of the age. Because of/despite the questionable quality of the reboot film. (And then there's the CGI reboot. Which I've not seen much, but I liked the CGI reboot of Captain Scarlet, so...)
Post by: Reelya on November 02, 2017, 08:13:52 pm
Post by: smjjames on November 14, 2017, 02:06:29 pm
To play devils advocate here, I seriously doubt those NK soldiers were thinking of the armistice, they were likely making a snap decision trying to stop the defector. I doubt anything will come of this, but the reason why I'm posting it is because wars can start (or the seeds get planted, or ball gets rolling, or whatever metaphor you want to use) from small things that might seem inconsequential at the time.
Again, I doubt it will due to the specific circumstances, but if there would ever be a spark for it to unravel, this could be it. Then again, NK has fired into SK and done stuff that very well could be considered as breaking the armistice and nothing happened.
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on November 14, 2017, 03:34:41 pm
Post by: Descan on November 14, 2017, 11:10:55 pm
Granted, that wasn't on the DMZ; but I think they're pretty similar in scope, ones mitigated by location, the other is mitigated by scale and pre-thought.
Post by: Culise on November 14, 2017, 11:30:04 pm
Post by: Reelya on November 19, 2017, 10:29:19 pm
There are articles wondering whether Kim Jong Un is doing well in terms of health, because NK has been silent on nuclear tests and rocket launches for the last 2 months. Seems like a bit of a stretch. Kim's only 33 years old, it's a little rich to speculate that he's in failing health and that they would stall weapons development just because of that. In fact I think if Kim was in ill health they'd probably ramp things up to appear strong.
A more plausible speculation would be that the 200 people killed when they had that big accident at their nuclear test site set their program back years. Right now they're probably not conducting weapons tests because the big accident put their entire program into disarray. The point of the nuclear tests is to design devices that are going to go into the rockets, it's not hard to speculate that some important rocket-development people were in fact working closely with the nuclear test people, and perhaps they lost some important key personnel in the collapse and rescue.
Post by: smjjames on November 19, 2017, 10:43:52 pm
It's also possible that they decided to stop and reevaluate what they were doing (like protocols, whether they were pushing too fast, etc) Seems like something most anybody would do after a major accident like the one they had, and they can't afford to lose more personnel.
Edit: lol the new title.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 19, 2017, 11:08:10 pm
Let's look at some data.
Kim Il-sung, Paternal Grandfather: Died aged 86, of myocardial infarction.
Kim Jong-suk, Paternal Grandmother: Died aged 29, cause uncertain (wartime hardship, childbirth, tuberculosis, or gunshot).
Kim Jong-il, Father: Died aged 70, of heart attack (alcoholism contributing?).
Ko Yong-hui, Mother: Died aged 52, of breast cancer.
Kim Man-il, Uncle: Died aged 3 or 4, of drowning.
Kim Kyong-hui, Aunt: Aged 71, alleged alive but in poor health, husband executed for treason.
Kim Pyong-il, Half-Uncle: Aged 63, NK ambassador to Czech Republic.
Kim Jong-chul, Older Brother: Aged 36, uninvolved in politics, plays guitar.
Kim Yo-jong: Younger Sister: Aged 30, trusted confident of Kim Jong-un.
Kim Jong-nam, Older Half-Brother: Died aged 45, assassinated with VX.
Kim Seol-song, Older Half-Sister: Aged 42, lieutenant colonel.
I couldn't find any death dates or causes for his maternal grandparents, as since they were a Japanese-Korean couple that data has been buried hard. Regardless, this is not the picture of an overly health family. His mother got breast cancer fairly young and more importantly died from it, while his father only made it to 70 and seems to have succumbed to alcohol-related damage. Kim Il-Sung did alright, but that was two generations ago and his personal doctrine of optics would have precluded any bad habits getting out of hand. All of Kim Jong-suk's alleged deaths, aside from being shot, indicate a constitution on the weaker side as well. His aunt also taking a turn for the worse around 70 is a decent correlation with Kim Jong-il's death.
His own generation only really says they don't have any young-death genes amongst them, but the half-sister lives a military lifestyle and the older brother seems to avoid the kind of involvement that would fund personal decadence. The younger sister is an interesting one for other reasons, because my research says she's actually the one who's supposed to take over for Un when he's incapacitated, as has happened before.
I think with the deaths of his parents it is totally plausible that Un could debauch himself into a downward spiral at his age.
Post by: smjjames on November 19, 2017, 11:30:07 pm
Given that, it’s not surprising that they’d purge all information regarding the maternal grandparents.
Post by: Reelya on November 19, 2017, 11:59:59 pm
There weren't really any examples in there that suggest the family as a whole is in poor health.
The maternal grandmother died young in 1949, right on the cusp of the civil war. It's probably due to wartime infections. Remember, pencillin only started being used in 1942 e.g. in the middle of WWII. It's highly doubtful that this new and important wartime stuff would have made it's way to North Korea. People died young of a whole lot of what we consider low-level infections today. Bringing that up is about as relevant as mentioning that your family is unhealthy because of the high infant mortality rate your ancestors suffered in 1910 or something.
Being in "poor health" in your 70's is sort of expect, more often than not that's true.
The rest were all accidental deaths or murder.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2017, 12:08:37 am
70 is young to die. Kim Jong-il presumably could afford top-tier medical care and didn't even beat par for North Korea, let alone South Korea which is probably a better comparison when controlling for genetics. Died sixteen years before his father, too. Ko Yong-hui's death is a really bad sign, she died of a cancer that most women survive, and at 52. And as I said, Kim Jong-il's sister crashing in health at the same age he did is significant as well.
It's not the worst. I'm not predicting that Kim Jong-un will die from this current bout if it does indeed exist, but the family as a whole is at or below average in terms of genetic resilience and resilience to a bad lifestyle.
For an example of high genetic resilience you might look at Queen Elizabeth and her mother, who lived to be over a hundred.
And dying of disease is at least a soft indicator: Some people get better even from severe infections while others do not, and family trends of either can speak to general immune strength. If three generations all get ebola and three generations all survive, that means something. If three generations all die of influenza, that can also mean something.
Post by: Reelya on November 20, 2017, 12:16:45 am
Also, there's no actual correlation with e.g. cardio health in male relatives and breast cancer in women. So it's really just pie in the sky there. Now, if you cited something that passes down in families and would also affect the men then it would be relevant. It's just not relevant at all that someone died of breast cancer. Because there aren't in fact any correlations between that and any other factors that would matter here.
https://www.bcna.org.au/understanding-breast-cancer/breast-cancer-in-the-family/
For example the correlation between family members and breast cancer is really low. For 90-95% of sufferers there is zero correlation between their disease and anyone else in the family getting it. While there is sometimes a genetic component, it's rare. So, for most women them having breast cancer is completely non-predictive of family health outcomes, even breast cancer, let alone "health in general" whatever that means.
Remember, the article just speculates that his "health is poor" without actually citing even a single person who thinks this is the case. It's purely baseless speculation if there ever was any.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2017, 12:21:39 am
My main line of logic is the death of Il far before his father and the relation of that to alcoholism, which Un also reportedly engages in, and the aunt getting ill at the same age Il died. That, and persistent gout, and being obese where Il and Sung were not? Could be nasty.
What I'd really like to see is something that answers the question of how good the ruling family's medical care actually is. We've both mentioned it at this point and I don't think either of us really have an idea. I figure either they're operating on North Korea's best native-educated doctors or foreign-educated doctors, which probably makes a decent difference. Or if Un doesn't go to a doctor because muh personality cult immaculate flesh go go, that would be really bad with what we've heard about his health.
Post by: Culise on November 20, 2017, 12:26:18 am
For an example of high genetic resilience you might look at Queen Elizabeth and her mother, who lived to be over a hundred.To be fair, they also have complete access to the best in First World medicine. Life expectancy in the Koreas at the time of independence was less than 50, though heavily skewed due to infant mortality. *South* Korea didn't pass 70 for average life expectancy until the 1980s, much less North Korea which only managed to match it for a brief period from 1990-1994. These are also long-term issues as well: malnutrition in the formative years has long-term effects on life expectancy and quality of life, and Kim Jong-il was born in a rural village in the USSR during World War 2 to a moderately-effective resistance leader. This is something Kim Jong-un, who was born the son of the ruler of a nation at peace in the 1980s, did not have to deal with nearly as much. I have to agree with Reelya that you can draw no real conclusions from this information.
Since it's not directly germane but is rather pretty, I'll place it here as an aside: life expectancies (https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy/) for the curious.
Post by: Reelya on November 20, 2017, 12:42:32 am
And "stingy" isn't the word for the Stalinist regime.
https://keepcalmandremember.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/everyday-hardship-the-red-army-soldiers-diet/
Quote
In advance of an operation, however, Red Army soldiers would be issued some sort of sustenance that wouldn’t immediately spoil. This was often black bread and sausages, or perhaps a tin of SPAM; America sent huge amounts of SPAM to the USSR as part of the Lend-Lease Agreement, and the food was a welcome help. In particularly tough times, however, soldiers were left to find their own food. They learned to forage and to rely on the generosity of civilians; female soldiers were usually sent on the latter errand, since they would seem less intimidating to frightened civilians!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2017, 12:47:33 am
Post by: Reelya on November 20, 2017, 12:49:00 am
The life expectancy for a man born today in USA is only 78. And that figure is taking into account future medical improvements by estimating it based on current trends.
The life expectancy for a man born in 1941 was less than that. Jong Il was just average because you're using unrealistic estimates of life expectancy.
But yeah anyway, extreme hardship in your formative years does cut decades off life. And anyway, it's sort of not relevant here. If the claim is that Jong Un inherited bad genes, because his father died at 70, then where did the bad genes comes from? There's no evidence that Jung Il's mother was generally in poor health, and actually, out of the remaining families members, their health outcomes are pretty average for any family. Having one 71 year old aunt who's a bit sickly, and another female relative who died of breast cancer isn't out of the ordinary for even healthy families. 1 in 8 women get breast cancer, it's going to be expected that at least one relative has it per 8.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2017, 12:55:49 am
Post by: Reelya on November 20, 2017, 12:59:47 am
If you're e.g. 30 and you live through WWII on reduced rations it's not going to have the same impact as being born into that and living through it for most of your childhood. Jong Il's first 4 years were living on war rations in WWII Russia, as the son of a foreign battalion leader that never saw combat (hence was very low priority for supplies), then they had a struggle to create a nation when the half the world was against them and they were carving something out of previously Japanese-occupied Korea. And not even the good fertile South, the cold and mountainous North.
I imagine that food was not a reliable resource during those years. Their allies were also no help. Russia was trying to get their shit back together after losing 20 million war dead, while China was in the middle of the Civil war and creation of the PRC. Basically none of the friendly nations around them would have had any resources to spare.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 20, 2017, 02:48:43 am
Post by: RedKing on November 20, 2017, 03:10:11 am
America sent huge amounts of SPAM to the USSRAnd now, 75 years later, they're repaying the favor. (sorry, couldn't resist)
Post by: smjjames on November 20, 2017, 09:28:20 am
Post by: martinuzz on November 29, 2017, 04:23:45 am
Experts calculated that with that height range, the missile will have a tactical range of 13000km, and with that, be able hit any US city.
UN security council called yet another emergency meeting.
Post by: Trekkin on November 29, 2017, 08:51:46 am
Post by: smjjames on November 29, 2017, 09:12:37 am
Incidentally, in order to test reeentry properly, they're going to have to do more typical trajectories instead of the near vertical reentries they typically do to avoid flying over Japan. Which means that we'll be seeing more flying over Japan. Or possibly more southward.
There's also rumors that they'll fire one or more missiles during the Winter Olyimpics in SK, maybe even detonate a nuke, and it's a pretty large window. If they're so brazen as to do that (especially if they detonate a nuke), then I think their athletes should be stripped of any medals they won for that Olympics and booted out. Even Putin wasn't so brazen as to invade Ukraine during the Olympics (though being the host was likely an additional factor).
Post by: Starver on November 29, 2017, 09:27:11 am
If we knew that they were 'aiming the same' each time they fired, then it'd be a simple back-calculation to see how well they do, but if they're changing their nominal aiming point (if any!) each time then it gets complicated. Doubtless those with powers greater than mine have scrutinised naval radars looking for NK 'fishing vessels' sailing in suspiciously similar loose configurations so as to 'net' targeted areas for observation, or somesuch, perhaps indicating the invisible target-point on each occasion, to see if how well (and how better, as time goes by) they're actually doing with actual trajectories.
Harder still if it was purely "pick a spot, fire at it, work with the transmitted telemetry", but if there's been any ELINT pickgup of that, no doubt they're analysing the encrupted "...going left a bit, going right a bit, WHOOPS! Now we're tumbling and way off course!" signal.
Post by: Reelya on November 29, 2017, 09:31:53 am
The hiatus for the North Korean weapons test occurred directly after they did a flight which happened to overshoot Japan. My hunch is that this was unintentional, and the fight was supposed to fall to the west of Japan (The Sea Of Japan), like all their other test flights normally do. They took a three-month break from launches as soon as that happened, which backs up the idea that it was a mistake, and their targeting systems are in fact pretty crap.
Remember, the entire point of a nuclear ICBM program is to have a credible threat to act as a deterrent, nobody actually fires the things at each other. Whether they work in a "real nuclear war" is almost besides the point here. North Korea's leadership knows that if they actually nuked anyone they'd be utterly destroyed. So all that North Korea should invest in is a rocket that can go really far - theoretically - and a big bomb that could theoretically go on said rocket. Diverting resources to making better long-range guidance systems would in fact be a waste of North Korea's limited resources, given how focused they need to be on the "main points" of rocket + bomb. In fact, spending effort to make sure the bomb fits on the rocket might be a waste of time. Just explode a bigger bomb and shoot a bigger rocket and claim they fit together.
Post by: smjjames on November 29, 2017, 09:41:53 am
Google says "circular error probable". I've heard that as a measurement before, it's the circle in which 50% of rounds are expected to land from a particular weapon system.
The hiatus for the North Korean weapons test occurred directly after they did a flight which happened to overshoot Japan. My hunch is that this was unintentional, and the fight was supposed to fall to the west of Japan (The Sea Of Japan), like all their other test flights normally do. So they put it on hiatus while they worked out how to avoid that - there's a real risk that it could have landed on Japan if anything went wrong with the rocket itself, and I'm betting North Korea realizes that actually landing a rocket on Japanese territory would be really bad shit for them.
So if that hunch is correct, then it hammers home that their actual guidance tech is lagging badly behind the other stuff. I mean, they're a small impoverished nation. It makes no sense for them to have an advance nuclear program and and advanced rocket program and an advanced guidance computer development system. Having any one of those things with significant investment of personnel and resources for such a small nation actually makes it less likely that they have resources to spare on the other areas, not more likely.
This one was really dang close to territorial waters though, enough to go "HEY! WATCH WHAT YOURE DOING!"
Also, it seemed like they were intentionally trying to thread the needle through the strait between Hokkaido and the main island, which would be the best option available if they didn't want to shoot it southwards.
Post by: Reelya on November 29, 2017, 10:22:32 am
The point is the multiple stages that detach outside the atmosphere, releasing re-entry vehicles which deliver a working nuclear device to the target, with the right working electronics to detonate it correctly (usually before it collides with the ground). If it just slams into the ground it probably won't detonate at all, that's been the experience of U.S. planes carrying nuclear bombs that have crashed or accidentally dropped bombs - none of them ever detonated, so just hitting the ground in the vicinity of your target isn't really all that likely to cause a proper nuclear detonation.
So we know that something hit the ocean at that particular point, and it was launched from North Korea. But we don't have any evidence that this was a properly detached and functional payload that could steer itself for re-entry, with heat shielding allowing the warhead detonation system to survive the trip back down, and then detonate a nuclear device, rather than just the spent stages of the rocket that went up, and continued in a parabolic arc.
Post by: smjjames on November 29, 2017, 10:36:35 am
Normally countries inform the local version of the FAA and other possibly relevant agencies if other nations are impacted when they do a scheduled test launch, NK doesn't do that.
Post by: Trekkin on November 29, 2017, 02:17:11 pm
Lofted trajectories don't intercept as much atmosphere as a regular long-range flight however, so how such missiles would function on a proper long-range flight is anyone's guess. Also, the point of ICBM isn't to get the entire rocket to hit a specific point - that would be a failure. That's not how ICBMs really work.
The point is the multiple stages that detach outside the atmosphere, releasing re-entry vehicles which deliver a working nuclear device to the target, with the right working electronics to detonate it correctly (usually before it collides with the ground). If it just slams into the ground it probably won't detonate at all, that's been the experience of U.S. planes carrying nuclear bombs that have crashed or accidentally dropped bombs - none of them ever detonated, so just hitting the ground in the vicinity of your target isn't really all that likely to cause a proper nuclear detonation.
What you're describing is a MIRV system; the Hwasong-15 need not be, particularly since North Korea doesn't care about SALT's limits on the number of launch systems, and the description of a super-heavy warhead -- singular -- implies it is not. It's a two-stage missile, too, which implies that their second-stage boost motor is doubling as a kicker for the warhead/countermeasure/decoy bus. Given that the terminal phase should be as close as possible to purely ballistic to avoid highlighting mass differences in the decoys, we can surmise that the second-stage trajectory is at least a reasonable proxy of the intended trajectory of the warhead.
Post by: Strife26 on December 04, 2017, 07:12:34 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 04, 2017, 07:43:36 pm
Post by: Strife26 on December 04, 2017, 08:22:51 pm
Wouldn’t that be NCEO? Seems like an evacuation of noncombatants (or dependents, as Sen Graham put it) would just make tensions worse because the only reason you’d do such an evacuation is if you believe war is imminent, and NK keeps a paranoid eye out for signs that war is imminent.
It would be, if government acronyms made sense. The documentation and common parlance firmly use NEO, though. Yeah, trying to do it would practically be a war warning. Of course, it has always been a somewhat goofy practice to keep such a huge number of families in Korea, but Korea is the land of goofiness.
Post by: Maximum Spin on December 04, 2017, 08:33:15 pm
Post by: smjjames on December 04, 2017, 08:38:48 pm
Post by: Starver on December 04, 2017, 10:08:28 pm
"NEO" is the apparent acronym of Non-combatant Evacuation Operation, but then it's also an acronym for many other things (Near Earth Object is what I'd probably thing, at first), so context is going to be vital.
1 Though an ex-squadie vacuum-cleaner salesman tried to persuade me to enlist, interleaved with his attempts to sell my mother a high-tec vacuum cleaner, one day when I was teenager. She didn't buy the vacuum, and I stayed completely civilian. So far. If things go bad, maybe I'll still get to join some form of Local Defence Volunteers!
Post by: smjjames on December 20, 2017, 10:20:05 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 22, 2017, 09:56:52 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Eric Blank on December 23, 2017, 08:01:44 am
Post by: IronyOwl on December 24, 2017, 05:10:55 am
Post by: smjjames on January 09, 2018, 12:14:16 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 09, 2018, 08:21:51 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 09, 2018, 11:24:23 am
I hope we get to see the Korean lifters again(http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1uf6IKVXXXXbVXXXXq6xXFXXXg/-Made-in-Korea-HKT-Golf-Cart.jpg)
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 09, 2018, 01:42:09 pm
Post by: birdy51 on January 24, 2018, 06:50:56 pm
Reuter's Article (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-southkorea-kcna/north-korea-sends-rare-announcement-to-all-koreans-calls-for-unification-idUSKBN1FD33I)
Post by: smjjames on January 25, 2018, 12:20:08 am
Anyways, given that the opening ceremonies are generally a telling of the host countries history and showcase of culture, I wonder how South Korea will portray post WWII.
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on January 31, 2018, 03:01:21 am
Post by: Teneb on January 31, 2018, 07:31:46 am
I think anyone who believes a reunification will be a reality within the next 20 years to be hilarious.20? Yeah, no. 100? Maybe, if everything goes mostly right. But at the very least this could be a step towards ending the war between North and South for good.
Post by: Reelya on January 31, 2018, 07:37:36 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2018, 09:45:18 am
It's actually impossible to say. A lot happens in 20 years. You can bet nobody was seeing the Germany reunification as happening any time soon in 1980.Dunno, most agents in Europe were actively executing plans to see reunification occur or falter in 1980; it was a real opportunity or threat to all sides involved, the West Germans were actively pursuing a policy of reintegration of East Germany, the East German government was failing to stop gorillions of East Germans from escaping and coming home with ideas of cyka blyat western decadence, the USSR was increasingly less able to defend its Western and Eastern flanks from American dick waving, without factoring in it also having to deal with increasing Chinese and European dick waving to boot. The biggest obstacle to North-South Korean unification is that North Korea is run by a personality cult that does not want reunification while South Korea was until 2017 run by cultists that did not want reunification. Worst of all, NK is now a nuclear state, so it's basically Dubyas fault for saying North Korea was on the freedom list
Post by: Cyroth on January 31, 2018, 10:11:11 am
2022: Due to combined northern engineering and southern technology and E-Sports money New Korea lands on the moon for the first time.
2026: New Korea establishes first scientific colony on the
2030: New Korea launches its first Mars mission, using the Orion Engine old north Korea developed under the guise of nuclear missile tests.
2031: the southern part of the country has finally cleared away all of the confetti.
2040: Korean mars colony is established.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2018, 10:21:12 am
2060: North Mars Korea attacks Guam using their advanced space engines, powered by proletariat tears and rage
2070: The United States is powerless to stop North Mars Korea annexing North America
2080: The Russian Federation, NATO, China and Japan fall to North Mars Korean agrarian missiles
2090: The European states willingly surrender after being indoctrinated by North Mars Korean cartoons
2100: Unified Northern Southern Korea surrenders to North Mars Korea. Kim Jong-Un awakens from his slumber to sit upon his golden throne, fusing together communism with starcraft 2, using his insane APM to guide humanity through the void, to embark upon the great cultural revolution of the stars. Using the warp, humanity colonizes the stars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEqc6H4RXos)
Post by: smjjames on January 31, 2018, 04:16:24 pm
Of course though, the absolute must do step towards reunification would be signing a peace treaty between each other because even though the shooting ended over 50 years ago, the two are still technically at war. And no, it's not one of those cases where war happened, the fighting stopped, but nobody did the official diplomatic documents declarimg peace.
In NK related stuff, Trumps South Korea ambassador pick was dumped (https://www.vox.com/world/2018/1/31/16954880/trump-north-korea-south-korea-ambassador-victor-cha) after he opposed a limited military strike. Either this is the Trump admin doing bluster, he just wants a 'yes man', or they really are planning on doing a limited military strike.
From everything I've read, even a limited military strike would have all the sublety of tapping a hornets nest*.
*To be honest, I'm not sure whether the hornets would have a different reaction to a tap vs violently striking the nest. Not that I'd want to find out.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2018, 06:25:41 pm
No idea where you got the idea that NK doesn't want reunification, they do want reunification. They just want it on their own terms with the US not interfering and no US troops around.That's a fair point, I'll be more specific and say that NK and SK officially both want to work towards unification, but for political reasons are maintaining status quo
Of course though, the absolute must do step towards reunification would be signing a peace treaty between each other because even though the shooting ended over 50 years ago, the two are still technically at war. And no, it's not one of those cases where war happened, the fighting stopped, but nobody did the official diplomatic documents declarimg peace.The shooting hasn't really ended, North Korea still shells SK clay every now and then. It's an armistice, no peace
From everything I've read, even a limited military strike would have all the sublety of tapping a hornets nest*.Not sure what counts as a limited military strike for Murricans. Also seems to be a bad move, surely the whole point of the military strike is that you eliminate their capability to retaliate, or else do not provoke them at all? The middle way runs a high risk of provoking all out war without eliminating their capability to cause havoc
*To be honest, I'm not sure whether the hornets would have a different reaction to a tap vs violently striking the nest. Not that I'd want to find out.
Post by: smjjames on January 31, 2018, 06:53:47 pm
The problem though is that I don't think there IS any sort of safe middle ground, if there were one, we'd have taken it already. The difference from Syria and Iraq is that neither Syria or Iraq had any desire to take on the US military, but NK is on a hair trigger.
Even if we signalled with mile/kiliometer high neon letters that it was a limited strike and not a prelude to war, Kim Jong-Un isn't exactly obliged to restrain himself.
The real danger of a war isn't coming from an actual desire to wage war, but from a mistake or miscalculation that could spiral out of control.
Post by: Teneb on January 31, 2018, 08:01:28 pm
But really, if are going to attack someone you shouldn't leave them in a position to retalliate. Anything less and you'd be better off not attacking in the first place.
Post by: smjjames on January 31, 2018, 08:21:10 pm
Either way, even if NK didn't have nukes, theres no way to guarantee that there won't be a massive retaliation. The most we got in the two examples above were protests and death glares, I don't see NK stopping there.
In general, a pre-emptive strike just seems like a bad idea because it's a situation ripe for miscalculation and things spiralling out of control when you think about the hair trigger kind of environment that NK operates in.
Post by: Sheb on February 01, 2018, 06:03:06 am
Post by: Reelya on February 01, 2018, 06:26:41 am
1) America is geographically isolated, they can bomb you with little risk of the bombs coming back the other way.
2) They only do it to people on the other side of the world
3) and/or They only do it to people too weak to retaliate.
e.g. America will bomb the weaker nations in the middle east, asia, or latin America only. There's a reason they've only ever directly attacked Panama, Grenada, Guatemala, etc. Because those nations are very small. And if the biggest most powerful nation in the world only has the balls to bomb countries about 1% their size, then NK would need balls of fucking steel to bomb a bigger and richer nation than themselves.
Remember, it comes down to oil. NK consumes less than 0.1% of the oil that SK consumes. They'd last about a day in actual combat. They still use WWII trucks I believe.
oil bpd is 2.5 million for SK, and about 20,000 for NK. A bbl is 160 litres, and a Mig-29 (https://oppositelock.kinja.com/so-are-you-really-rich-enough-to-buy-the-mig-29-1685664469) would apparently need 770 litres of fuel in the first 5 minutes of flight. So, in other words, each air-minute they have a fighter up there costs around 1 bbl of fuel out of their entire national consumption of 20,000 bbl / day. If they send 10 fighters up for a 20 minute flight, that's 1% of their entire national fuel consumption for the day, whereas 1% of Sk's oil consumption could put their entire airforce of 700 planes into the air for 35 minutes.
Post by: Sheb on February 01, 2018, 08:33:55 am
Post by: smjjames on February 01, 2018, 09:49:43 am
NK also has an incentive for things not to escalate too much. After all, they'd lose a full-scale war. Still, they could lob a few artillery shells to Seoul or something in a smaller tit-for-tat response.
Lose, not loose, that typo annoys me so much. Don't know why, it just does.
Post by: Starver on February 01, 2018, 10:50:50 am
When we've all been bombed back to using archers, it could be a very important distinction. :PNK also has an incentive for things not to escalate too much. After all, they'd lose a full-scale war. Still, they could lob a few artillery shells to Seoul or something in a smaller tit-for-tat response.
Lose, not loose, that typo annoys me so much. Don't know why, it just does.
Post by: Reelya on February 01, 2018, 11:07:33 pm
Well, except that NK already has shelled SK from time to time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong)
The NKers basically felt like SK had started that though, because SK artillery exercises had fired into NK territorial waters. And NK chose to shell a small island, not the mainland. It was reactive, tit-for-tat. If you look at the map, there are three SK-owned islands out to the west along the NK coast, and they picked the smallest one of those as the target. So while bombing civilian targets still isn't acceptable, it's a relevant point for understanding the NK motivations and decision-making process. They picked a small place that's far away from mainland SK as their retaliation target.
This suggests that NK were keen to send a "tough" message, but they're also scared of escalation. Which is why even though they've had 65 years to drop some shells on Seoul, they never actually have done that. They don't actually have the balls to do it. The artillery is a deterrent, e.g. a bluff. But if you're bluffing you need the other guy to believe you have the balls to follow through, so when SK shells fell in NK waters, they used that as a pretext to bomb a small island in SK, to show they "mean business", which maintains the credibility of you deterrent stance.
And this is the difference between other nation's border skirmishes and American bombing campaigns. USA directly bombs your capital city as their first response to some allegation that you did something against them while other nations go "well fuck you, we bombed that tiny little island next to you, take that!" And that's because those other nations are posturing and are aware of escalation risks, while America feels secure enough that they don't give a fuck about escalation because they know you can't retaliate.
Post by: Sheb on February 02, 2018, 06:25:07 am
So sure, tit-for-tat means you don't go all out, but it also mean you have to answer. If bombing a small island, killing a couple soldiers and civilians is the answer to a few shell in disputed waters that you claim as yours, what is the answer to several dozens missiles strikes on NK missile sites going to be? In that context, a few shells launched at Seoul don't seem that absurd, do they?
2) That's not the only shelling of NK that happened. They sunk a SK corvette in 2010 for exemple./
Post by: andrea on February 02, 2018, 06:28:42 am
Anyway, while they don't want escalation, for internal reasons they will have to retaliate in some way, even if it is shelling some mostly empty patch of land.
Question is, what happens next?
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2018, 06:51:42 am
Your first point was that they might shell Seoul. My response was formulated only relation to the wording you chose yourself, "shell Seoul".
You then countered by bringing out an example of a border skirmish. But that's not really the same claim I was responding to.
So, when in my second post I clarify that my post was specifically referring to the capital city, there's a perfectly good justification for that, it's because I wrote my post in response to you specifically referring to the capital city.
2) Like I said, that's nothing to do with any specific statement I was actually responding to.
e.g. you said "Shell Seoul" and I said "no, they won't do that". Now, you say "but ... they shelled an island and they sunk a ship, so you're wrong". So I say, "fair enough, except we were talking about whether Seoul would be shelled, weren't we?"
Post by: smjjames on February 02, 2018, 11:12:42 am
maybe not on Seoul, but they could hit near the city, to show they have the capability? (not sure if the geography allows to hit mostly empty areas while still proving you can reach the city)
Anyway, while they don't want escalation, for internal reasons they will have to retaliate in some way, even if it is shelling some mostly empty patch of land.
Question is, what happens next?
Shouldn't be an issue to either reduce the propellant of the artillery (if possible) or change the firing arc.
Geography would be less of an issue and more that it would be harder to find an empty patch of land that would be close enough to deliver the desired message.
Post by: Descan on February 02, 2018, 07:30:54 pm
Whereas Reelya thinks the opposite? As he went into the statistics of North Korea and South Korean military oil use; something that wouldn't matter if the shelling of Seoul would be only tit-for-tat response to a military shelling, instead of the start of a full-scale shooting match.
Basically: Sheb wasn't going "I predict Seoul would be shelled!" He was treating "shell Seoul" as interchangable in type (if not scope) with the Island Shelling and Convoy Shelling that they previously engaged in. So he *was* proving his point by discussing those previous shellings.
I mean, Reelya even says "[You said 'shell Seoul.'] You then countered by bringing out an example of a border skirmish. But that's not really the same claim I was responding to." Which pretty directly indicates that Reelya thinks they aren't interchangable, no?
Post by: Reelya on February 02, 2018, 10:09:51 pm
And it's why I brought up the American doctrine as an example. We're so used to hearing that Americans bombed Tripoli, or they bombed Baghdad, or some such, in response to some provocation that we've decided that this is how normal posturing works. But it really isn't. America only bombs other capitals when they're certain that retaliation is completely impossible, and those incidents don't escalate, purely because the people bombed do not have a retaliatory option. So, in other words, the USA is uniquely poised such that for them "sending a message" by bombing your capital city is a valid way of making a point, without risk of escalation.
Generally, if other nations are attacking each other's capitals - that only happens when they're already committed to fighting to the death.
Post by: Sheb on February 03, 2018, 05:08:42 am
But I don't see why shelling Seoul would be an all-out-war thing. I agree with you that NK doesn't want things to escalate to full-blown war, but we've established that NK shows no qualm about shelling SK ground, killing soldiers and civilians for even small slights, like holding a live-fire exercise in contested waters.
With that in mind, it doesn't make sense to expect NK not to react on a much more deathly scale in the case of the US launching a missile strike on the scale of the one that was targeted at Syria (which is what we were discussing).I'm not expecting all the fabled 10.000 guns to starts turning Seoul to rubble, but a few shells kills some dozens or hundreds? I can totally picture that. After all, NK needs to maintain deterrence, and from that logic, you need some kind of tit-for-tat response.
Post by: Reelya on February 03, 2018, 05:13:00 am
So, what I think is that you're really underestimating what a big thing it is to actually bomb someone else's capital city. And the only reason I can think that you might think it's not such a big deal, is that retaliatory bombing is something the USA gets away with. It's just not like that for anyone else. America does that stuff because they have an air-superiority doctrine, and by showcasing that they can unilaterally bomb or drone-attack people, even your capital city, they're asserting that dominance. NK doesn't have any doctrine like that, they have a deterrence strategy.
If Seoul and Pyongyang start shelling each other's cities, that's not just a border dispute: that's "the war is on, fuckers!"
Post by: Sheb on February 03, 2018, 05:44:42 am
Post by: Teneb on February 03, 2018, 09:30:29 am
But again, tit-for-tat. The retaliation has to be proportionate to the attack you received. Again, they bombed an island as a response for an exercise in disputed water. Certainly, in case of a US missile strike on NK infrastructure, the response would be much bigger, don't you think? They wouldn't shrug it off.Yes, but at that point it's back to full war instead of this uneasy ceasefire they have going on.
If NK is ever attacked by the US, Kim Jong-un has to show he won't be pushed around or his generals will go for a coup almost immediately.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 26, 2018, 09:02:10 pm
In related news: Has crossposting gone too far
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2018, 01:08:03 pm
Xi Jinping claims the heavenly mandate, declares himself Founding Emperor of the Xi dynasty. Era of unlimited power and prosperity declared, Taiwan officially declared #2 by mainland government. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/salvatorebabones/2018/02/25/leader-for-life-xi-jinping-strengthens-hold-on-power-as-china-communist-party-ends-term-limits/#66fc9ab5e466)The People's Heavenly Empire of Xi is, and has always been, a Loyal And Protective Friend to the Great And Just Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the Only True Korea, not to be confused with the Capitalist Pig-Dogs of the south, Slaves To Foreign Oligarchs.
In related news: Has crossposting gone too far
Post by: smjjames on February 27, 2018, 05:22:03 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 27, 2018, 06:06:48 pm
I guess it depends on whether he goes the Mao route of unquestioned decisions with absolute control or he goes a bit more the route of ruler with trusted advisors who can question him and we’ll, you know, actually advise.
Quote
“When you are surrounded by sycophants, yes men, people who are too afraid to tell you what they really think, then there is a risk that the leader makes bad decisions,” she said.Uh oh spagetios (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/26/xi-jinping-china-presidential-limit-scrap-dictator-for-life)
“I’m not saying that we are going to have a famine like the Great Leap Forward or that China is going to turn into chaos like the Cultural Revolution. But … already there are some bad decisions being made.”
Post by: Teneb on March 01, 2018, 11:41:31 am
Their real names have been revealed as, respectively, Josef Pwag and Ijong Tchoi.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 01, 2018, 12:09:34 pm
Post by: smjjames on March 01, 2018, 12:56:07 pm
Offhand though, it does remind me a bit of when people were thinking Ghaddafi had maybe run to Brazil, which made him release a video saying in effect "Yo! I'm still here in Libya and ain't going anywhere!"
Post by: Teneb on March 01, 2018, 01:01:09 pm
China seems like a more logical place for them to seek refuge than Brazil or Japan (as was mentioned elsewhere) since they'd be pretty safe in China unless they did something that really pissed off the Chinese.The article does mention (and a quick search by me confirms it) that prior to 2006 it was hilariously easy to get a fake brasilian visa, which, in turn, allowed you to go to most of the world.
Offhand though, it does remind me a bit of when people were thinking Ghaddafi had maybe run to Brazil, which made him release a video saying in effect "Yo! I'm still here in Libya and ain't going anywhere!"
As for China, I think it'd be the one place the Kims can run to without fake ids.
Post by: Starver on March 01, 2018, 01:17:51 pm
They may have avoided getting anything Fake Chinese (at least not to piss off a direct ally, possibly also less easy than other places) but I imaginesome sort of Bourne Identity lockbox in a convenient location (or across more than one, again to increase the basket-count) brimming with multiple forms of alternate id, etc.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2018, 01:23:02 pm
China seems like a more logical place for them to seek refuge than Brazil or Japan (as was mentioned elsewhere) since they'd be pretty safe in China unless they did something that really pissed off the Chinese.I doubt they're all that safe in China in the event of an ousting. The likelihood of China using the Kims as a bargaining chip to the UN would be pretty likely if they had no control over NKorea and weren't useful to China anymore
Offhand though, it does remind me a bit of when people were thinking Ghaddafi had maybe run to Brazil, which made him release a video saying in effect "Yo! I'm still here in Libya and ain't going anywhere!"I swear the Americans do that in order to make their targets go out in the open and reveal they're still alive in order to better plan the next strike?
Post by: Hanslanda on March 01, 2018, 01:29:45 pm
;)
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2018, 01:38:33 pm
Americans: We're a devious, violently insane, murderous group of gun and bomb obsessed manipulatory hegemonists. Everyone should be afraid of the tinpot dictator with one nuke and a starving, ill supplied army/nation though.Same way you'd be more comfortable around a pack of disciplined war dogs than sit around with a single starving stray. The desperation of the mangy dog would drive it to make mad decisions, even picking fights which would result in its own destruction - but not before it could give everyone around it rabies and shit
;)
Post by: Hanslanda on March 01, 2018, 01:48:46 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2018, 02:25:30 pm
I was being facetious. My country terrifies me but no more so than any other large country with nukes. Your analogy is apt. DPRK is dangerous because they know their geopolitical strength is weak and there is significant international pressure on them, plus they must maintain the illusion to their people of strength. Between a rock and a hard place, with a hand grenade and a crazy look in their eye."I swear I'll do it! I swear I'll do it!" Says Kim. Unbeknownst to all, he has already pulled the pin, but the grenade is defective.
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 01, 2018, 03:34:16 pm
I was being facetious. My country terrifies me but no more so than any other large country with nukes. Your analogy is apt. DPRK is dangerous because they know their geopolitical strength is weak and there is significant international pressure on them, plus they must maintain the illusion to their people of strength. Between a rock and a hard place, with a hand grenade and a crazy look in their eye."I swear I'll do it! I swear I'll do it!" Says Kim. Unbeknownst to all, he has already pulled the pin, but the grenade is defective.
Won't be defective in a couple more years. We have to start accepting the reality that pretty soon North Korea will have the ability to wipe a decent chunk of people off the face of the earth.
Though, I have recently read an article (I think it was in The Economist?) about how North Korea, having made significant progress in its nuclear program, now wants to be respected as a responsible nuclear state rather than a rogue nation that threatens everything it sees. Deciding to send athletes to the Winter Olympics was one of the inaugural moves of integrating with outside nations. Kim Jong Un has also said that he will not threaten any countries that don't disrespect the interests of North Korea. Basically Kim Jong Un now wants to be seen as a leader that can be negotiated with instead of a delirious madman whose every action must be put in check. There's still some optimism to be had here (at least about, you know, not dying.)
Also, about a third of a thousand pages! Woo!
Post by: Madman198237 on March 01, 2018, 03:53:24 pm
-snip-
Won't be defective in a couple more years. We have to start accepting the reality that pretty soon North Korea will have the ability to wipe a decent chunk of people off the face of the earth.
-snip-
No, no we don't. NK won't be able to wipe a significant chunk of anything off the face of the planet for quite a while. It takes a lot of effort to make weapons-grade uranium or plutonium, effort that NK can't afford to do massive things with. They ALSO still don't have a truly respectable fusion-weapon development program, and their weaponry is probably not even MIRV yet seeing as how they are sucking in the miniaturization department. In short, everything they can do, we can shoot down and do a million times better, all at the same time. It literally doesn't matter how rogue, insane, and suicidal they are, we can shoot down every nuclear missile they're likely to be capable of launching any time in the next twenty years, all without the defensive networks breaking much of a sweat.
Not to mention they STILL won't be able to deal with the consequences of starting a nuclear war while sitting on China's doorstep (And Russia, but Russia's "doorstep" in Siberia is more of the forgotten back door that leads into a walled-off old stairway that hasn't been used in years). But of course, the "fear them" approach presumes that MAD doesn't work, even when the only assured destruction is on Korea's side.
Post by: smjjames on March 01, 2018, 04:00:49 pm
-snip-
Won't be defective in a couple more years. We have to start accepting the reality that pretty soon North Korea will have the ability to wipe a decent chunk of people off the face of the earth.
-snip-
No, no we don't. NK won't be able to wipe a significant chunk of anything off the face of the planet for quite a while. It takes a lot of effort to make weapons-grade uranium or plutonium, effort that NK can't afford to do massive things with. They ALSO still don't have a truly respectable fusion-weapon development program, and their weaponry is probably not even MIRV yet seeing as how they are sucking in the miniaturization department. In short, everything they can do, we can shoot down and do a million times better, all at the same time. It literally doesn't matter how rogue, insane, and suicidal they are, we can shoot down every nuclear missile they're likely to be capable of launching any time in the next twenty years, all without the defensive networks breaking much of a sweat.
Not to mention they STILL won't be able to deal with the consequences of starting a nuclear war while sitting on China's doorstep (And Russia, but Russia's "doorstep" in Siberia is more of the forgotten back door that leads into a walled-off old stairway that hasn't been used in years). But of course, the "fear them" approach presumes that MAD doesn't work, even when the only assured destruction is on Korea's side.
I don't think any country would find it remotely easy to deal with starting a nuclear war, given that nobody has experienced it, for one. Even if it's something regional like Pakistan-India.
Post by: Reelya on March 04, 2018, 06:37:19 am
So they seem to consistently only get around 60% of launched rockets to leave the ground. If they did manage to nuclear-tip those missiles, 40% of them have a possibility of blowing up in North Korea, and the other 60% have to still get to where you are and properly detonate, which is a capacity that North Korea hasn't demonstrated. A single aimed launch would make their threat much more credible, but they seem to hand-wave exactly where their test rockets land. They're clearly not able to tell you where the rockets they fire will land within a tolerable error margin, or they'd make a point of highlighting accuracy.
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2018, 06:41:31 am
It is suspected, based on seismic data and background radiation levels from their latest series of tests, that they have achieved some level of fusion bomb technology. Due to the increased requirements to detonate a fusion based hydrogen bomb, a malfunctioning launch system going KABOOM is just going to burn the deuterium fuel like it was normal hydrogen.
Post by: Starver on March 04, 2018, 07:07:32 pm
In really old uranium style bombs, this is done with a ball of plutonium being shot into a cavity made of uranium.Trinity Test's "The Gadget", and Nagasaki's "Fat Man", was a plutonium implosion device. 238U (depleted Uranium, itself not fissonable) was used to surround the plutonium core as a neutron-reflector to help the compressed Pu ball cross the boundary of Criticality.
That's different from Little Boy which is Uranium-on-Uranium with 235U (enriched, highly fissionable) and which was actually shooting a cavity over a plug, for pretty interesting and logical reasons that I won't try to ineptly explain right now.
Obviously, they have messed with all kinds of configurations over time (and "Thin Man" was an initial attempt at a Pu-based mass-and-hole-bringer-together, but was shown not to be viable for various reasons), but the oldest of "really old" nuclear bombs, uranium or otherwise, aren't really that kind of mixed-fissile material.
Post by: martinuzz on March 06, 2018, 08:07:47 am
Kim Jong-Un said, when he met with the South Korean delegation yesterday, that he 'wants to write history considering the relationship with Seoul'.
He will also meet with the South Korean leader Moon Jae-in. It will be the first meeting between the two country's leaders in ten years.
North Korea has not confirmed this yet, and the White House has not commented yet either.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/zuid-korea-noord-korea-bereid-te-praten-met-vs-over-verwijderen-kernwapens~a4578258/
https://youtu.be/IGP7fd50yLg
Post by: wierd on March 06, 2018, 08:15:27 am
Post by: martinuzz on March 06, 2018, 08:18:43 am
Post by: smjjames on March 06, 2018, 09:52:32 am
As far as 'guaranteeing the security of the regieme', I wonder how much NK actually has to fear from China. The historical relationship between China and Korea has been more or less a vassal state type relationship.
Post by: smjjames on March 08, 2018, 05:34:30 pm
Post by: martinuzz on March 08, 2018, 05:56:57 pm
Post by: martinuzz on March 08, 2018, 07:39:24 pm
Immediatly after being handed the invitation, Trump accepted to meet with Kim, coming may.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2018, 07:43:01 pm
Post by: smjjames on March 08, 2018, 07:49:07 pm
I suppose it's possible that 'by May' was just a suggested timeline and is not set in stone.
I feel like some 18 year old housesitter who's parents are coming back half a week early unannounced.
I get what you're saying about it being a surprise, but that's downplaying the historicness of it.
This seems like exactly the kind of situation where you'd want your State Department to be fully staffed, not halfway to skeleton crew.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 08, 2018, 07:49:48 pm
Post by: smjjames on March 08, 2018, 08:13:34 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 11, 2018, 11:33:52 am
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2018, 11:37:15 am
Americans... Averting war? What the fuck is this timelineTruly a sign that the End Times are upon us.
Post by: smjjames on March 11, 2018, 11:39:36 am
Americans... Averting war? What the fuck is this timelineTruly a sign that the End Times are upon us.
Lol.
He could still easily screw up in a thousand ways and NK could easily screw him a thousand ways as well.
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2018, 11:48:10 am
Sarcasm and shitposting in equal measures. It's really odd though.Americans... Averting war? What the fuck is this timelineTruly a sign that the End Times are upon us.
Lol.
He could still easily screw up in a thousand ways and NK could easily screw him a thousand ways as well.
Post by: smjjames on April 17, 2018, 10:19:15 am
I have no idea if this is the first time the Koreas have tried to reach an official peace treaty, but it'd be a pretty big step forward if they do reach one. Removal of the DMZ and the troops along the border don't seem likely to happen in the near future though.
Post by: martinuzz on April 25, 2018, 06:33:03 am
Simply put, NK can no longer perform any nuclear test, because they don't have any test sites left.
Mount Mantap, under which NK performed it's underground tests has collapsed to a degree that there is simply not enough structural integrity left of the facilities.
After the last test, which struck an enormous underground crater, part of the mountain, 500m below the top, collapsed.
What's worrying China is that the collapse opened up a chimney, which could easily allow radioactive debris to be carried over to China if the winds are blowing right.
China is also worried that the Changbai volcano, at the border of China and North Korea, could be activated by any further nuclear test induced earthquakes.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/wereldvrede-zonder-mount-mantap-kan-kim-jong-un-helemaal-geen-kernproeven-doen~a4595795/
Post by: Reelya on April 25, 2018, 06:47:12 am
e.g. if their nuclear program is in fact in tatters then it's worth more as a bargaining chip than an actual program. It would also be a hot potato - they'd need to use it as a bargaining chip before people realize it's a lemon. e.g. they get concessions for promising to give away something that's already broken beyond repair.
Post by: martinuzz on April 25, 2018, 06:56:43 am
Post by: smjjames on April 25, 2018, 09:27:10 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 25, 2018, 09:33:02 am
Post by: Teneb on April 25, 2018, 11:12:14 am
Post by: misko27 on April 26, 2018, 09:36:28 pm
Post by: Kagus on April 27, 2018, 05:30:54 am
Great Leader crosses into Worst Korean territory as summit begins. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-43914208)
Am I the only one thinking that those are some rockin' witch hunter outfits in the procession photo?
Sorry, damn, I'd promised no more cultural insensitivity for the week...
Post by: Reelya on April 27, 2018, 05:39:32 am
Like if a huge asteroid almost hit the Earth but just missed, and Trump tweeted how the asteroid saw Trump and steered clear, I'd be lenient on that since I'd be grateful to be alive.
Post by: smjjames on April 27, 2018, 09:30:37 am
Trump will take the credit for this, but it's honestly one of the few times idgaf that Trump will take credit for something, since it's just such a relief that it's going in this direction.
Like if a huge asteroid almost hit the Earth but just missed, and Trump tweeted how the asteroid saw Trump and steered clear, I'd be lenient on that since I'd be grateful to be alive.
I get the feeling that he'd take credit for the sky being blue if he thought he could get away with it.
Anyways, pomp aside, they seem to be putting some real effort into formally ending the Korean War.
Post by: Pancakes on April 27, 2018, 04:15:45 pm
SupremeMoon, coming to a theater near you!
Or MoonLeader
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2018, 04:39:16 pm
He had missiles that worked, and could actually nuke the US.[skepticism]
With the revelation that the testing facility of North Korea literally collapsed on itself, I'm starting to think that it really is out of a position of weakness. The offer to meet came back in March, well after the testing facility collapse, and probably by the time that he realized that there's just no more testing he can do, period. Probably with China making doubly sure that he knew that he could do no more testing that they would tolerate due to the lack of suitable testing facilities that wouldn't risk damage to China should things go wrong.To ignore the Trump factor would be rather silly, the hammer and anvil would not work with either one missing. It is credible that Xi Jinping told Kim to calm it or he'd be visited by the PLA (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-northkorea-missiles-china-kim-jong-un/north-korea-leader-kim-jong-un-visits-china-bloomberg-idUKKBN1H226Z) though, the anvil in this case
So it's not really to do with Trump at all, but just a matter of circumstance.
Post by: Pancakes on April 27, 2018, 05:11:21 pm
Regardless, these talks are very promising, and no matter the actual reasons for them taking place, we should be happy that they are. I'm interested to see the propositions that both sides have, and whether or not they actually end the war officially.
Post by: Reelya on April 28, 2018, 06:23:59 pm
To clarify- he believes he has missiles that work, and could nuke the US.
Nah, he didn't believe that, the deal was to get other people to believe it. Remember the point I made that NK always highlighted how far their missiles could go (in theory), but were very short of demonstrations of targeting prowess. e.g. a salesman who's very keen to sell you a used car, turns the engine on and lets you hear it, talks about mpg and comfort features, but steers clear of actually demonstrating that the thing can actually move in a straight line.
Post by: smjjames on April 28, 2018, 06:41:30 pm
To clarify- he believes he has missiles that work, and could nuke the US.
Nah, he didn't believe that, the deal was to get other people to believe it. Remember the point I made that NK always highlighted how far their missiles could go (in theory), but were very short of demonstrations of targeting prowess. e.g. a salesman who's very keen to sell you a used car, turns the engine on and lets you hear it, talks about mpg and comfort features, but steers clear of actually demonstrating that the thing can actually move in a straight line.
The east coast is pretty dense, you can aim for the general area and still hit a populated area.
NK did go and pull a 'hold my beer' moment last year by claiming that they could aim and hit a 100 mile (or kilometer) ring around the island of Guam and hit water instead of the island itself.
Post by: smjjames on April 28, 2018, 10:58:54 pm
If this is the site that I suspect it is, that is, the one which got used so hard and had a catastrophic collapse (with at least 200 dead) last summer and is no longer safe to use, then this seems almost purely symbolic as they're not closing a site that is still active, just one that they've decided to abandon.
Though, for what it's worth, it seems to have been the primary site for underground testing, which is still a huge hit on it's own.
Post by: Reelya on April 29, 2018, 05:53:41 am
To clarify- he believes he has missiles that work, and could nuke the US.
Nah, he didn't believe that, the deal was to get other people to believe it. Remember the point I made that NK always highlighted how far their missiles could go (in theory), but were very short of demonstrations of targeting prowess. e.g. a salesman who's very keen to sell you a used car, turns the engine on and lets you hear it, talks about mpg and comfort features, but steers clear of actually demonstrating that the thing can actually move in a straight line.
The east coast is pretty dense, you can aim for the general area and still hit a populated area.
NK did go and pull a 'hold my beer' moment last year by claiming that they could aim and hit a 100 mile (or kilometer) ring around the island of Guam and hit water instead of the island itself.
USA's East coast? There's no evidential basis for starting to worry about NK hitting the east coast. Given the ability to shoot in any direction, London will be at risk before New York is. And that's where this starts to veer from reality to fantasy. NK wanted you to believe they're an emerging world military power capable of hitting anywhere on Earth (if they could hit New York they could also by definition hit all capital cities in the Northern Hemisphere) but it's plainly not true - they're a tiny nation with a shoestring budget and outdated tech, and failing obsolete infrastructure. It's frankly ridiculous to believe they could develop (in any reasonable time frame) the ability to devastate Paris, London, New York, Moscow, New Dehli, Cairo, Tel Aviv, and Sydney, etc etc etc, which is what the "east coast" claim entails.
EDIT: remember they said that they were going to fire Hwasong-12 rockets at Guam last year, and made claims about the accuracy beforehand, but they didn't follow through with the actual demonstration. So you have their word that the accuracy was as they claim, but then somebody pulled the plug on the physical demonstration. They could have easily aimed at an empty patch of ocean, at the appropriate distance, giving out coordinates beforehand, thus proving their claims to the world. There was no need to actually target Guam, just target some random patch of ocean. It would have proved their words, but they've made no attempts at doing so. e.g. they never make targeting demonstrations, and at least one time they pointed out an actual target beforehand, they failed to carry out the demonstration.
Post by: smjjames on April 29, 2018, 09:24:52 am
Post by: Reelya on April 29, 2018, 05:28:14 pm
So I decided to look up some North Korean Navy information to see how viable them invading Japan actually is. Apparently, the NK ships are so antiquated that ships from the east coast don't have the range to travel to the west coast (and vice versa), even in ideal conditions. Hardly seems likely that they could conduct operations in international waters at all. And that's beforce considering that SK+Japan amounts to about 180 million people and NK only has 25 million people, or any other factors that would weigh against NK.
Post by: smjjames on April 29, 2018, 05:42:14 pm
Invading SK would also mean instant war with the US and the end of Kim Jong Un's rule, so, I don't think he's that suicidal.
They very well could be playing everybody, but I think Trump and his mercurialness is a much bigger risk as Trump could do something dumb.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 29, 2018, 06:45:07 pm
I was reading some comments on a news article, where people were saying that NK was just tricking everyone, just wait until they invade SK and Japan. Multiple commenters were expressing this same exact sentiment.If NK were to take actions against Japan, it'd be unconventional to say the least. Midget submarines delivering infiltrators, flooding the sea with mines, all sorts of generally cheap, nasty and effective asymmetrical measures which'd give Japan headaches at very little cost or risk to their capabilities.
So I decided to look up some North Korean Navy information to see how viable them invading Japan actually is. Apparently, the NK ships are so antiquated that ships from the east coast don't have the range to travel to the west coast (and vice versa), even in ideal conditions. Hardly seems likely that they could conduct operations in international waters at all. And that's beforce considering that SK+Japan amounts to about 180 million people and NK only has 25 million people, or any other factors that would weigh against NK.
That said, the fact that Kim Jong-Un prefers American troops in South Korea to American troops out of South Korea is pretty telling, cos he'd much rather have American troops stationed in South Korea than have Japan feel threatened, and subsequently have Japan remilitarise in response. It leads to the rather odd situation where North Korea wants America to feel like it is a threat, but wants Japan to feel like it is harmless, because it'd rather not deal with either the wakeful colossus nor the slumbering giant.
Post by: smjjames on April 29, 2018, 06:56:20 pm
Post by: ggamer on April 29, 2018, 10:09:25 pm
On the other hand, that means that Kim Jong-Un's regime gets to keep it's stranglehold on the people of North Korea. Nearly 25 million people, and what we've seen of their lives from those refugees that crossed the DMZ does not paint a pretty picture. Is peace really worth it, if it means you're consigning a huge chunk of people to such a horrible life?
Well, I'll try to stay happy about it anyway.
Post by: Starver on April 30, 2018, 04:40:30 am
Apparently, the NK ships are so antiquated that ships from the east coast don't have the range to travel to the west coast (and vice versa), even in ideal conditions.
Spoiler: What if they have secretly retrofitted them? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 08:08:38 am
-snip-
The thing is, not being at war will presumably mean that the border will loosen up a bit. Not only will families segregated by the split be able to contact each other more frequently, but the propaganda war between north and south will take on an entirely new dimension; one that can't be as easily thrown out as "it's just the enemy, don't listen to it".
The rest of the world has had decades worth of time to try and save those people by knocking out the government, but they haven't. Now it's time to try a different approach.
Post by: Reelya on April 30, 2018, 08:19:28 am
Post by: Shazbot on April 30, 2018, 08:25:25 am
Trump recommended for the Nobel Peace Prize by President Moon. The Nixonian "Madman" strategy works once again.
Post by: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 08:33:45 am
Goddammit Moon-Moon.
Post by: smjjames on April 30, 2018, 10:21:05 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=123671.5025
Trump recommended for the Nobel Peace Prize by President Moon. The Nixonian "Madman" strategy works once again.
I think you meant to link to your post over on AmeriPol.
Post by: Jopax on April 30, 2018, 10:48:56 am
Then someone suggested they could placate him even more if they made it look like it was all his doing too, fucking brilliant!
Cue the war resuming the moment he steps down :V
Post by: smjjames on April 30, 2018, 11:07:46 am
In other NK related news, apparently Kim Jong Un doesn't care if the Iran deal is scrapped. Don't know if maybe they're resigned to it getting scrapped (I'm sure they're aware of some of the political disputes about it, given how closely they pay attention to us, and how vocal Congress has been over it) or if he really doesn't care about it.
Post by: Shazbot on April 30, 2018, 11:45:48 am
My personal headcanon is that they both realized that Trump really is a wild-card idiot manchild he appears to be and sort of shared a look going 'play it cool for now, no point in risking this asshole nuking us both?'
Then someone suggested they could placate him even more if they made it look like it was all his doing too, fucking brilliant!
Cue the war resuming the moment he steps down :V
The contrary theory is that indulging on chocolate cake with Xi Jinping, then casually mentioning he's blasting a Syrian airbase with cruise missiles right over Russia's head, made the Chinese president sufficiently appreciative of Trump's willingness to project force to achieve his policy goals. Following shortly thereafter, China cut off North Korea's primary cash flow, coal exports, and even went so far as to position troops on North Korea's border. Why? Chinese troops on North Korea's border weren't sending a message to Trump, but to Kim. The Olympics proceeded as an opportunity for North and South Korea to float a trial balloon of public good will toward one another while Pence remained laconical. While the press declared North Korea the victors of a charm offensive, Trump made clear to Kim that he was unwilling to play along with North Korean pageantry. With Japan rumbling toward militarization and joining the nuclear powers ( Japan could start assembling thermonuclear bombs like Honda engines any damn time it suited them ) and China at risk of losing their East Asia regional parity with the United States should Japan militarize, Kim was entirely isolated. All Trump had to do was demonstrate a will to move the status quo in his direction, something his predecessor could not manage in eight years.
Or maybe that's just "my personal headcanon". I'm sure it can't be any more fantastical than "he's such a moron everyone lets him win".
Post by: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 12:14:25 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on April 30, 2018, 02:21:12 pm
There are not words for how much I like thisApparently, the NK ships are so antiquated that ships from the east coast don't have the range to travel to the west coast (and vice versa), even in ideal conditions.Spoiler: What if they have secretly retrofitted them? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Starver on April 30, 2018, 02:27:16 pm
There are not words for how much I like thisThen it would be overkill to respond to Kagus, above, that Japan are much more interested in
(Giant mecha vs tank-boats, though. I'd have to plump for the mecha if they work, or the tank-boats so long as they half-work better than the mecha. Or else it's just another variation of Redshirts vs Stormtroopers.)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 30, 2018, 03:55:31 pm
I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, i'm always grateful when enemies end a cycle of aggression. At the very least, the US and SK might be able to use some of their defense budget spent on keeping NK under constant guard on more worthwhile investments (jesus aren't i optimistic).To answer your question: Yes. The world does not need more Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan adventures to bring peace and liberty at the point of a bayonet; overwhelming force is not the only tool in America's arsenal, but it is certainly the one least suited to deployment for peace, especially at such a corner of the world which would see war between China and the US begin. If the state of the North Korean people is grim now, the toil that would be inflicted upon them by the demands of war - both allied and enemy, would be immensely magnified. The destruction of the North Korean leadership would be a highly achievable objective, yet likely to be replaced by the next Korean strongman capable of bringing order out of the chaos.
On the other hand, that means that Kim Jong-Un's regime gets to keep it's stranglehold on the people of North Korea. Nearly 25 million people, and what we've seen of their lives from those refugees that crossed the DMZ does not paint a pretty picture. Is peace really worth it, if it means you're consigning a huge chunk of people to such a horrible life?
Well, I'll try to stay happy about it anyway.
To do nothing, allow the smuggled cellphones and computers bring knowledge to North Koreans over the outside world, allow the regime to wither away or reform of its own accord, it is the path most likely to guarantee both peace and liberty for the whole Korean peninsula. The fate of North Korea is largely in the hands of China; and China has taken its steps to economically reform China, but remains firm to its own tight control over political authority. Thus the most realistic objective unlikely to get North Koreans turned into jelly by North Korean tanks is secure economic liberty, but not political liberty, which is a slightly more tolerable situation
Post by: scourge728 on April 30, 2018, 04:18:21 pm
Post by: Shazbot on May 01, 2018, 08:31:31 am
Post by: Reelya on May 01, 2018, 08:34:41 am
East Germany also didn't topple, the existing administration agreed to unification, so there was political continuity with the old communist regime.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 01, 2018, 08:35:21 am
And I'd hardly call "glasnost" a major success as far as the geopolitics of Eastern Europe are concerned.
Edit: ninjaed
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 01, 2018, 10:08:05 am
If North Korea's leadership were toppled I am almost certain it would not be replaced by "the next strongman". East Germany didn't devolve into thirty years of anarchy, it unified with its liberal sister government. We saw glasnost bring down the Soviet Union and I hope to see it repeated in North Korea.On the military and political frontier East Germany's reunification was either ambivalently or enthusiastically supported by the USSR, USA, France, UK, West Germany and East Germany. The USSR's political reforms led to unification of Germany, but division of the USSR, with strongmen from the former Soviet security apparatus taking over. China takes the failure of the USSR's reforms to mean that they were in the end correct; economic reform before political reform will preserve the state where political reform before economic reform will ensure its collapse. Lastly, it is a safe bet to make that the dissolution of a heavily centralized government, itself dependent upon its leader, having that leader atomized, would not topple in the same manner that the East Germans made a cautious transition in political parties without damaging the state or nation. A unification of North Korea into South Korea is not impossible, but whatever the likelihood cannot be rushed
Post by: smjjames on May 01, 2018, 11:02:23 am
Post by: Hanslanda on May 03, 2018, 08:44:13 am
I realize that a great deal of time has passed, but I'm still under the assumption that Japan is less than enthusiastic about joining the list of nuclear military powers. Despite the voiced opinions of certain prominent politicians.
This. I've heard that many Japanese still remember losing family to the only two offensively deployed nukes in history, and a great many abhor the idea of it happening ever again. Just hearsay mind you.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2018, 08:59:38 am
Not to mention that it would be expensive as all hell and take decades to bring NK up to the technological and living standards of SK. They're further apart in standards than West and East Germany ever were.To be fair, the economic cost is easily the least controversial aspect. There's no denying Korea as a whole would be all the wealthier for reunification
Post by: smjjames on May 03, 2018, 09:02:01 am
I realize that a great deal of time has passed, but I'm still under the assumption that Japan is less than enthusiastic about joining the list of nuclear military powers. Despite the voiced opinions of certain prominent politicians.
This. I've heard that many Japanese still remember losing family to the only two offensively deployed nukes in history, and a great many abhor the idea of it happening ever again. Just hearsay mind you.
Not surprising that it would still be painful in the national culture. They reportedly do have plutonium stockpiles and combined with the fact that Japan could easily become a nuclear power in under a year since they already have all the applicable knowledge is enough to make China a bit antsy about that fact.
Anyways, in NK news, Giuliani said that the three detainees (https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/politics/rudy-giuliani-north-korea-prisoners/index.html) are being released sometime today, though there is no official news yet and it's Giuliani that's saying it rather than the White House. If it really is happening, it's a hell of a concession before the summit.
Not to mention that it would be expensive as all hell and take decades to bring NK up to the technological and living standards of SK. They're further apart in standards than West and East Germany ever were.To be fair, the economic cost is easily the least controversial aspect. There's no denying Korea as a whole would be all the wealthier for reunification
Yeah, it's just the reality of it, and yes, Korea as a whole would be better off after reunification.
Post by: scourge728 on May 03, 2018, 12:41:04 pm
Post by: Trekkin on May 03, 2018, 12:42:23 pm
I can't recall, is China one of the nuclear powers and if not, are they capable of becoming one?
They have nuclear weapons, yes.
Post by: scourge728 on May 03, 2018, 12:43:25 pm
Post by: Kagus on May 03, 2018, 12:44:12 pm
I can't recall, is China one of the nuclear powers and if not, are they capable of becoming one?
They are a nuclear power, yes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)
However, the 2015 estimate puts them at "only" 260 strategic missiles, whereas the US currently has somewhere around 4,000.
Enough to completely end the world... How many times over?
Post by: Teneb on May 03, 2018, 12:45:18 pm
None, I think. But more than enough to destroy the current economy and politcal systems.I can't recall, is China one of the nuclear powers and if not, are they capable of becoming one?
They are a nuclear power, yes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)
However, the 2015 estimate puts them at "only" 260 strategic missiles, whereas the US currently has somewhere around 4,000.
Enough to completely end the world... How many times over?
Post by: Egan_BW on May 03, 2018, 02:04:25 pm
Post by: smjjames on May 03, 2018, 03:01:54 pm
Post by: Hanslanda on May 04, 2018, 12:16:10 pm
I can't recall, is China one of the nuclear powers and if not, are they capable of becoming one?
They are a nuclear power, yes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)
However, the 2015 estimate puts them at "only" 260 strategic missiles, whereas the US currently has somewhere around 4,000.
Enough to completely end the world... How many times over?
Most estimates of a total nuclear war between USA and Russia range from 'significant devastation and some weather change' to 'near-extinct human race and global winter for decades'. A war of that nature against China would be much less devastating, but still cause some weather change and obviously many many casualties.
Post by: Shazbot on May 04, 2018, 02:04:14 pm
I should clarify, I read your warning as the thought "the next strongman" will continue being a dictator who maintains an independent and oppressive nation. I don't see a reason or need to push over NK's leadership, which I think is what you are concerned about. However I see the possibility it will be pushed over internally from coups or liberalization. In that instance, I don't see an internal strongman taking over save one who facilitates the transition. But even in the event of the very unreasonable invasion of North Korea, I don't see a strongman who perpetuates the existing policies. Hitler was replaced by an admiral of the Kreigsmarine, itself the least political arm of the military. This doesn't seem analogous to Iraq or Afghanistan nearly to the degree it is analogous to East Germany. If the existing regime weakens or ceases to exist the country I can only imagine it folding into South Korea and, after a not-insignificant period of disruption, become at least a place where people have food and aren't thrown in concentration camps.
Unless China moves in to secure the destabilized country with the army they've already moved to the border, and annexes it.
Goddamnit.
That is a real stare-down to war, but I hope Xi has less interest in economic exclusion zone waters falling to a US aligned Korea than he wants to rebuild the North Korean economy and feed its millions.
Things just get better, folks.
Post by: Jopax on May 04, 2018, 02:17:46 pm
Ideally I think some sort of very loose federation between the K's with a gradual integration would be the best solution. It'd minimze the shock of such economically/socially disparate societies openly meeting while allowing for a gradual change and integration of both.
Post by: smjjames on May 04, 2018, 11:48:05 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 04, 2018, 11:49:49 pm
Post by: Kagus on May 05, 2018, 03:59:39 am
EDIT: Also, this (https://amp.businessinsider.com/kim-jong-un-received-a-usb-from-south-koreas-president-2018-5) looks rather interesting. Kim Jong-Un was given a gift of a USB stick containing detailed information about potentially viable trade and transportation routes around NK, and how to go about developing them. There's also word of there being info for setting up a power plant on there.
All depending on if/how that stick gets used, this could be a huge step in developing North Korea and getting it connected with the world.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 08, 2018, 08:05:33 pm
Post by: smjjames on May 08, 2018, 11:18:43 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 09, 2018, 01:29:45 am
Post by: Trekkin on May 09, 2018, 01:41:24 am
I think what is happening is that the NK leadership genuinelly believed the only thing keeping them from a foreignee invasion were the constant nuclear tests (rather than the far more likely "smelly kid hypothesis"), and now that is perma-offline for the time being, they are acting uber-tame, as they are expecting a mass invasion any time now
That has certainly been their official position (and the justification for the songun chongch'i since it began over two decades ago); I suspect part of this relative quiet is worry over internal unrest as people come to understand that the country does not need to run itself ragged supporting an ever-increasing military force to maintain its independence.
Post by: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 05:17:14 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 15, 2018, 05:19:45 pm
Post by: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 05:24:03 pm
Post by: Glowcat on May 16, 2018, 04:51:53 am
Post by: MorleyDev on May 16, 2018, 05:43:12 am
Post by: Starver on May 24, 2018, 12:18:33 am
Post by: WealthyRadish on May 24, 2018, 12:20:21 am
Post by: Shazbot on May 24, 2018, 02:01:16 am
This game is going to go on for a while. If Trump up and walks out of the first peace talk he's entirely in character. Imagine he's buying a car with no price tag out of some guy's cracked driveway who can't even afford to pay his electric bill and has a bunch of crying, hungry kids in the house.
Nice car. How much you want for it. Thumbs through a gigantic wad of hundred-dollar bills.
Oh, I don't reaaaally want to sell that. Maybe ten thousand?
Huh. Walking away.
That's an insufferable position to be in if you want to sell the car, where the car here is Kim's nuclear weapon's program. Trump doesn't need Korean denuclearization (really, it was just accepted fact under Obama that this had happened) nearly as much as Kim needs economic sanctions lifted and international normalization. Trump can, in the very least, pretend like he doesn't give a shit. Once Kim is convinced he wants to sell his nuclear program and that he can't hold out for a better deal by doing his own fake-out and saber rattling (what he's trying now) he'll cash out. But he's only going to be able to sell this program once, and can't exactly start up another.
Expect absolutely nothing to be done in the polite diplomatic style and do not discount that Trump knows how to buy and sell, and you can start to understand this apparently erratic behavior. Trump is going to continue with regularly scheduled wargames for the same reason you go across the street to the next car lot while the salesmen are watching you. He's letting Kim know he could just as easily leave the sanctions up and keep North Korea under an effective siege now that he's gotten a wedge between North Korea and China. By the time this stuff is over I'd expect a live-fire test of an anti-ballistic missile system engaging a target with the exact threat profile of a North Korean system, directly proving a defense of Tokyo or Seoul against Kim's best weapons.
Besides, I'm reasonably certain his program is in shambles to begin with, between unreliable warheads and unreliable rockets, and he wants to sell this lemon.
Post by: Sheb on May 24, 2018, 02:08:22 am
Where I severely disagree with you is that I don't think that Kim is interested in "selling" his nuclear program at any price. NK demands for that have been clear for a long time and include stuff like removal of all US troops in SK, which isn't going to happen. But the point you're missing is that nukes have an intrisic value as a deterrent to Best Korea, so they are not going to give them up cheaply. My guess is that the best Trump (or any adminsitration, really) can hope to gain is an halt to testing.
Post by: Kagus on May 24, 2018, 03:14:12 am
Post by: Shazbot on May 24, 2018, 03:21:35 pm
Well, while you can interpret this that way, you could also just say that it's basically the same business as usual with NK for the last 20+ years. I don't really blame Trump for saying he'd talk, but NK has an history of pretending they're interested in peace deal only to walk out.
Where I severely disagree with you is that I don't think that Kim is interested in "selling" his nuclear program at any price. NK demands for that have been clear for a long time and include stuff like removal of all US troops in SK, which isn't going to happen. But the point you're missing is that nukes have an intrisic value as a deterrent to Best Korea, so they are not going to give them up cheaply. My guess is that the best Trump (or any adminsitration, really) can hope to gain is an halt to testing.
I'm not missing that point, but I think you overestimate the value of a nuclear weapon as a deterrent to South Korea. If North Korea can destroy Seoul in a flash of light, fine, but they can already do this in a hellstorm of rockets and artillery. A halt to testing is not what this administration wants. Iran halted testing. It wasn't enough, the deal is off. It will be the same with North Korea.
Trump has sent a letter cancelling the summit.
Quote
His Excellency
Kim Jong Un
Chairman of the State Affairs Commission
of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Pyongyang
Dear Mr. Chairman:
We greatly appreciate your time, patience, and effort with respect to our recent negotiations and discussions relative to a summit long sought by both parties, which was scheduled to take place on June 12 in Singapore. We were informed that the meeting was requested by North Korea, but that to us is totally irrelevant. I was very much looking forward to being there with you. Sadly, based on the tremendous anger and open hostility displayed in your most recent statement, I feel it is inappropriate, at this time, to have this long-planned meeting. Therefore, please let this letter serve to represent that the Singapore summit, for the good of both parties, but to the detriment of the world, will not take place. You talk about nuclear capabilities, but ours are so massive and powerful that I pray to God they will never have to be used.
I felt a wonderful dialogue was building up between you and me, and ultimately, it is only that dialogue that matters. Some day, I look very much forward to meeting you. In the meantime, I want to thank you for the release of the hostages who are now home with their families. That was a beautiful gesture and was very much appreciated.
If you change your mind having to do with this most important summit, please do not hesitate to call me or write. The world, and North Korea in particular, has lost a great opportunity for lasting peace and great prosperity and wealth. This missed opportunity is a truly sad moment in history.
Sincerely yours,
Donald J. Trump
President of the United States of America
Post by: Trekkin on May 24, 2018, 04:35:05 pm
By the time this stuff is over I'd expect a live-fire test of an anti-ballistic missile system engaging a target with the exact threat profile of a North Korean system, directly proving a defense of Tokyo or Seoul against Kim's best weapons.
And when the interceptors miss (as they are wont to do more frequently than has been propagandized), Kim triumphantly declares those same weapons unstoppable and a fine replacement for the literally decaying artillery currently threatening Seoul, to which the nuclear program was to provide an effective replacement deterrent in the first place.
I look forward to seeing you contort that into a win for Trump somehow.
Post by: scourge728 on May 24, 2018, 04:58:10 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 24, 2018, 05:03:58 pm
By the time this stuff is over I'd expect a live-fire test of an anti-ballistic missile system engaging a target with the exact threat profile of a North Korean system, directly proving a defense of Tokyo or Seoul against Kim's best weapons.
And when the interceptors miss (as they are wont to do more frequently than has been propagandized), Kim triumphantly declares those same weapons unstoppable and a fine replacement for the literally decaying artillery currently threatening Seoul, to which the nuclear program was to provide an effective replacement deterrent in the first place.
I look forward to seeing you contort that into a win for Trump somehow.
actually that would be a win of sorts, because as difficult as it is to shoot down missiles, its a lot more difficult to shoot down a barrage of 150mm artillery shells, and NK couldnt hope to maintain nearly as many ready-to-launch nuclear missiles as they can divisions of artillery. Sure it would raise tensions a great deal, but if kim scrapped the "hellstorm of artillery" in favour of missiles it might actually paradoxically reduce the threat to the capital
Post by: Akura on May 24, 2018, 05:04:41 pm
If that letter was real, I am 100% sure trump didn't write that.I agree. That letter is a lot longer than 280 characters.
Post by: Kagus on May 24, 2018, 05:06:05 pm
If that letter was real, I am 100% sure trump didn't write that.How so? I mean, sure, plenty of message-taking and letter-writing being done by aides and whatnot, but I wouldn't say I was 100% certain he didn't write it.
And it's certainly the letter getting reported as being the one sent to Kim.
Post by: scourge728 on May 24, 2018, 05:23:42 pm
Post by: Shazbot on May 24, 2018, 06:03:10 pm
If that letter was real, I am 100% sure trump didn't write that.
Yes, the letter is 100% real, and since when did Presidents write these things? You hire a speechwriter. Although Trump may very well direct it, or write his formal copy and have his speechwriters tidy up. Ultimately, what difference is there? These are the words he's approve to use. Insulting his intelligence by saying he's a bad writer and couldn't have possibly written this diplomatic letter doesn't make this any less the policy position he's staked out.
http://fortblissbugle.com/2017/10/25/fort-bliss-thaad-battery-reflags-with-35th-ada-in-south-korea/
A proven ABM system, THADD, is already deployed and was a major move in 2017. Each battery six launch vehicles with eight missiles in the tube. North Korea does not have 48 MRBMs, nor more than a half dozen nuclear warheads. Layered into that is Aegis and Patriot. Both of these systems are very good. None of these systems exclude the use of the other, and almost certainly each system can launch multiple interceptors at a single target. So to shoot down a given North Korean nuclear missile there is a lot of flak on hand and I do not see the varying layers being penetrating by a handful of very large targets. I would think Kim's estimation that the ABM systems render his missile threat meaningless is part of his calculus in wanting to get something for his now-useless missile program.
C-RAM systems in the US and Israel can shoot down artillery shells. Because its 2018. Its far (rather far) from perfect, but its better than nothing by far. The hope is counter-battery can smother the guns and launchers before the C-RAM runs out of ammunition.
Kim is unlikely to scrap any of his existing assets, however. North Korea has very large numbers of dumb rocket systems installed on the reverse slopes of mountainsides, using little rail cars and tunnels to push the them in and out of a mountain's worth of cover for reloading. Its a counter-battery nightmare, but C-RAM helps soften it and buy time. However the positions are well known and GPS is a wonderful means of hitting known, static targets. It is a question of time-to-target.
As of right now Trump has walked from the summit but left the door open, leaving with three hostages and a North Korean test facility demolished. In return for nothing. This is unlike the previous administration's bargaining with Iran, which let more and more concessions flow to Iran including the humiliation of American sailors out of a refusal to walk away from the table. This is precisely the right step to take in response to North Korea's bellicose saber rattling.
You have to be willing to walk away to negotiate.
Post by: Starver on May 24, 2018, 07:04:59 pm
As of right now Trump has walked from the summit but left the door open, leaving with three hostages and a North Korean test facility demolished. In return for nothing. This is unlike the previous administration's bargaining with Iran, which let more and more concessions flow to Iran including the humiliation of American sailors out of a refusal to walk away from the table. This is precisely the right step to take in response to North Korea's bellicose saber rattling.Already responded (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162538.msg7769612#msg7769612) to this nonsense in the US thread. Applies here too.
You have to be willing to walk away to negotiate.
Post by: Reelya on May 24, 2018, 10:23:06 pm
e.g. if you uses some politics-brain, both sides originally said they want to talk, but NK said they'd only do so if US military exercises in South Korea were halted. When the exercises were halted and NK immediately agreed to the talks, the USA was honestly surprised. But after that, NK has kept to their word over the talks, while the USA has done multiple things to try and derail the talks - but in a way that they could blame NK for.
e.g. Trump needed to be seen as the "willing-to-talk" guy and make out Kim as the "non-willing-to-talk" guy. But when the other guy honestly seems like he wants to talk, and you don't, then it becomes difficult to pull out of the meeting in a way you can blame the other guy, so you provoke them by doing the one exact thing they said not to do if you wanted to have the talks go ahead. When that fails, find offense at something silly and tangential. All up, it just looks like Trump was actually committed to either military intervention, or just justifying the continued occupation of South Korea the whole time, and offering "talks" with NK was just the grandstanding part of it that makes out that they're the White Knight in all this.
EDIT: there are also comments from after the canceled talks:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-japan-skorea-urge-continued-dialogue-after-trump-pulls-out-of-us-nkorea-summit
Quote
On Thursday, Mr Trump pulled out of what would have been the first-ever meeting between a serving US President and a North Korean leader - a summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un set for June 12 in Singapore. Mr Trump said the meeting was inappropriate given the North's "tremendous anger and open hostility".
In response, Pyongyang struck a conciliatory tone on Friday, with North Korean First Vice Foreign Minister Kim Kye Gwan saying in a dispatch via the official KCNA news agency that Pyongyang was willing to sit down with the US "at any time, in any way, to resolve the problems".
There seems to be a definitely discontinuity here between the Trump administration statements and the reality of the situation. e.g. pushing the "tremendous anger and open hostility" point just seems to be a smokescreen to set that up as a media narrative allowing the USA to unilaterally pull out of talks while blaming the other guy. Meanwhile, you have the other guys responding that they're open to unconditional continuation of the talks, and that's met with literal silence from the US. e.g. it's fairly clearly Trump's side that were looking for an excuse to shut this whole thing down. But, it can't appear to be Trump who pulled out.
Post by: misko27 on May 24, 2018, 11:45:59 pm
Post by: Reelya on May 24, 2018, 11:59:32 pm
e.g. Japan is the most against the process of all the regional actors, but they have several strategic reasons why they might not want to see unification on the Korean peninsula. First, they would lose some strategic importance for the USA, second, South Korea would gain access to large amounts of cheap labor, making South Korean industry more competitive. Think: Samsung factories in North Korea for example, giving Korea a big edge. USA and Japan might be viewing this from a geopolitical standpoint, e.g. US military bases in the region heavily benefit both of those nations more than anyone else, and the NK threat provides a cold-war type rationale for why so many of those bases continue to be there. A fractured Korea is good for both the Japanese and American hawk lobby.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 25, 2018, 03:40:30 am
This is good forWell, if you can't have world peace, I guess world shenanigans are a decent consolation prize.bitcoinDPRK Thread.
Post by: Imic on May 25, 2018, 04:00:33 am
Post by: Hanslanda on May 25, 2018, 11:15:22 am
Imagine you are Best Korea. You live in a rundown house with barely any power, water, food, or money. Your next door neighbor and only real neighbor is your lifelong archenemy, a rich, well to do, respectable but corrupt (to you) businessman who is connected with some corrupt hateful cops. (SK and USA)
The only person that has your back is this huge family on the next block, of vaguely ominous communist types, and they recently told you you're on your own.(China) Now, you have a shotgun (artillery/rockets) and a busted ass M16 (nukes), that you're constantly outside with, polishing and practicing shooting, cuz you know the businessman is trying to strongarm you out of the neighborhood.
The only reason he hasn't approached you yet with his goons is the shooting and brandishing you do.
And your M16 broke yesterday. No wonder they're so touchy.
Post by: smjjames on May 25, 2018, 11:57:36 am
*Which may not necessarily be clear cut if war is sparked through a series of mistakes and miscalculations than deliberately started by one side or the other.
Post by: Kagus on May 25, 2018, 12:41:11 pm
Post by: Reelya on May 25, 2018, 03:26:06 pm
Post by: scriver on May 25, 2018, 03:37:59 pm
Post by: misko27 on May 25, 2018, 04:00:24 pm
Post by: WealthyRadish on May 25, 2018, 04:03:50 pm
Post by: Starver on May 25, 2018, 04:30:15 pm
They'll probably skyrocket in value if the situation deteriorates spectacularly.They'll probably be spectacular if the the situation involves deteriorated 'value' skyrockets.
Post by: smjjames on May 25, 2018, 06:04:59 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on May 25, 2018, 06:33:10 pm
The talks need to go ahead, otherwise the sales of the commemorative Trump-Kim conference coins (https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/trump-kim-jong-un-commemorative-coin_us_5b045b9ae4b003dc7e471444) will tank. Sure, they're the most ghastly-looking things since whenever, but that only adds to the charm.Wow those are ugly.
Post by: Starver on May 26, 2018, 09:58:43 am
Post by: wobbly on May 26, 2018, 10:30:24 am
Post by: Rose on May 26, 2018, 10:33:35 am
Post by: smjjames on May 26, 2018, 10:39:49 am
Post by: Jopax on May 26, 2018, 01:17:28 pm
Spoiler: Fuck coins, we need commemorative robots for this one (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2018, 10:05:05 pm
Post by: Trekkin on May 26, 2018, 11:23:36 pm
That one was just things between the two Koreas anyways. Also, the WH has sent their advance team to Singapore anyways despite it seemingly been cancelled, so, I don’t know, the whole cancellation seems like some sort of negotiation ploy.
Well, Trump has apparently decided that the meeting is proceeding "very nicely" despite maybe not happening, so it would appear the White House is hedging its bets -- or just scrambling around preparing for everything because the President is fundamentally random.
Post by: wierd on May 27, 2018, 01:32:46 am
Moon is doing a bang-up job so far. If he can get reconciliation going, and get an actual end to the war along with disarmament and cleanup of the border with normalized relations, he deserves more than a damn peace prize.
The US not having its disgusting tiny orange hands in this is not only more hygienic, it also makes me feel better about the world.
Post by: Reelya on May 27, 2018, 02:38:54 am
e.g. if you're going to use the "not afraid to walk away" tactic you better damn well ensure that you have something that's vital to the dicsussion. In this case, a deal directly between the two Koreas would effectively nullify what the USA thinks about it.
Post by: Starver on May 27, 2018, 06:09:51 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 27, 2018, 07:34:25 pm
The problem being that you can't exclude the US from the talks any more than you can't have China looming over the other shoulder.
I mean they totally can ignore the two ogling giants, it just means they can’t use, for example, dismantling of US/Chinese bases in the region as a bargaining chip between the koreas. Or at least not without creating somewhat of a stir
Post by: smjjames on May 27, 2018, 08:18:43 pm
I know it’s just an example, if not a great one...
There’s plenty of stuff the two can talk about that wouldn’t need US or Chinese input.
Post by: martinuzz on May 28, 2018, 12:07:26 am
Post by: Reelya on May 28, 2018, 02:12:42 am
e.g. Someone like Samsung could move factories into North Korea and the sanctions would effectively be null and void. e.g. the USA would have to create additional sanctions on a case by case basis for all South Korean entities starting operations in North Korea. In fact, those South Korean entities will have a competitive edge since the pre-existing sanctions will reduce the competition for North Korean contracts, e.g. they provide protectionism for all entities not already on the sanction list.
Post by: smjjames on May 28, 2018, 09:24:09 am
Post by: Reelya on May 28, 2018, 09:48:14 am
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-kaesong-southkorea/north-korean-workers-operating-in-closed-south-invested-factory-zone-idUSKBN1CB0VR
Post by: smjjames on May 28, 2018, 10:43:27 am
Post by: Kagus on June 02, 2018, 04:28:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Reelya on June 02, 2018, 06:15:41 am
Also Trump fell for it - the huge letter makes his tiny hands look even smaller.
Post by: smjjames on June 02, 2018, 08:38:31 pm
Also, it turns out that the supposed nuclear site destruction was as some expected, just shallow propoganda. (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/01/politics/north-korea-nuclear-test-tunnel-gesture-propaganda/index.html) Though if it were me, I'd be cautious about using it again since the integrity of that mountain and the rocks in the area are likely shot, if the collapse that killed at least 200 people is any indication.
At this rate, they're gonna play Trump for a fool with egg on his face.
Post by: scourge728 on June 02, 2018, 09:10:08 pm
I knew it
They already have
Post by: Reelya on June 03, 2018, 09:55:46 pm
The latest news is that Kim has removed the top three brass from the NK military. It's suggested that this is because there was dissent to the current diplomatic talks, so Kim is replacing the military leadership with someone who will be on board.
As for the demolition of the nuclear site, sure, that's symbolic but that doesn't mean they're starting nuclear tests again. The site's a total wreck to start with. The main argument, in the CNN video, against the demolition being legit is the lack of "significant seismic activity". But fuck ... you don't really want them to do that, because of all the fallout down there. The last thing we want is any big explosions. The detonations are symbolic of a policy shift. The whole point of the symbolic act is to signal the change. If they just start it up again then there would have been no point in doing it in the first place: there would have been no need even for the symbolic act.
Also it's noted that they removed equipment from the site, so that's held against it being legit. But hell, this is North Korea - every scrap of steel is worth gold to them. This is a country that uses a type of wood-fired engine in trucks because of a lack of oil. It's extremely unlikely that they're going to build another nuclear test site now.
Quote
On Tuesday, CNN reported that a series of US intelligence assessments concluded that while Kim could give up some weapons in negotiations with the US -- including warheads and missiles -- he may not be willing to give up his capabilities to regenerate his program.
No shit. He'd end up like Ghaddafi or Saddam. He at least has to obfuscate whether he can or not, that's the entire point.
Post by: smjjames on June 03, 2018, 10:11:04 pm
As for Kim Jong-Un doing a shakeup of his top military staff, sounds like there were some disagreements with how to do things or they wanted to do things Kim didn't want to do. That might have been the basis of the rumor about being concerned about a coup since replacing the top three military brass all at once would be a heck of a shakeup.
The shakeup of top military staff may be a good thing, depending on various factors.
Post by: Reelya on June 03, 2018, 10:30:28 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: smjjames on June 03, 2018, 10:50:45 pm
The problem here though is a lack of trust with NK to follow through on things and they have broken deals in the past before. Granted, those were under previous leaders, but young Kim is probably more likely to follow through as he has to secure his reign.
My best guess is that they do not have the capacity to restart that, and that's why they're on the current course of action.
Plan 1 was the nuclear deterrent. That's gone now, so Plan 2 is the diplomacy scenario. That's as simple as it gets. Plan 1 is kaput. A combination of Plan 1 and Plan 2, just frankly doesn't make any sense. You either have the loudmouth threatening, or you have the friendly diplomacy. They're incompatible, which is why they're doing a hard-turn on this stuff. The issue is: the "friendly diplomacy" thing is only something Kim gets to pull once in his reign. If he flip-flops back to the "nuclear madman" deterrent strategy ("i've got nukes and I'm crazy enough to blow them up!"), then he can't switch back to diplomacy ever again, and he would in fact need a killer "end game" move to pull off with his military stuff. e.g. he's only going to pull that if he feels he can strategically outmaneuver the USA. This clearly isn't going to happen.
I don't know about the friendly diplomacy thing being something he can only pull off once if he goes back to madman mode, relations with Soviet Russia waxed and waned during the Cold War. Might be true for dealing with Trump given his vindicativeness, but with a new adminstration, he'd have another chance.
Plus, didn't it go back and forth between madman mode and friendly diplomacy and back to madman mode at least two or three times in his fathers reign? If he blows it with the Trump admin, he can always try again with a new admin.
Post by: Reelya on June 03, 2018, 10:57:14 pm
Sure, the USA will have a new President in a few years and maybe another chance for Kim to "play nice" if he somehow does a 180 and starts pumping out nukes and going all beligerent again, but that doesn't change the rest of the world. Frankly, that scenario doesn't make a lick of sense, either. If Kim goes back nuclear, it needs to be end-game worthy bullshit, and they don't have the capacity to pull that off. That's why he was hoping to just make a nuke and be able to mothball it and use it as propaganda and a bargaining chip. Firing the nuke would have been the last thing he'd want to do, because deterrents don't work if you shot first. Whatever he plans to do with a hypothetical nuke, the goal is that North Korea and its leaders survive. Firing the nuke at America would basically be guaranteed instant death, which is the opposite of North Korea's goals. So, despite how panicky everyone gets we can completely rule out the possibility that North Korea will fire a nuke at America. They are not the USSR, who would have been theoretically capable of withstanding a nuclear war on equal footing with the USA.
Post by: smjjames on June 03, 2018, 11:08:27 pm
I think you're seeing that in too much of a unilateral sense. Kim's overtures are to the world. If he backstabs the current peace process he's not just messing with Trump, he's messing with South Korea, China, Russia and the EU. Basically anyone who got on board and trusted him is who he'd be backstabbing. You're thinking in too much of a USA-centric view.
Yeah, I was thinking in more of a NK-US view, rather than NK-World. IMO, I think it's more likely that Trump would screw it up somehow or other, he's already pseudo-cancelled it in a sort of 'knock it off now...' move, after which, NK calmed down a little. Still, both sides have so much at stake in this (for entirely different reasons, Trump wants a 'win', Kim wants what he wants) already that the incentive to try and not screw it up is there.
Post by: Baffler on June 03, 2018, 11:35:44 pm
Post by: smjjames on June 04, 2018, 09:29:24 am
Post by: wierd on June 12, 2018, 03:50:32 am
https://kcnawatch.co/newstream/1528766561-786425585/kim-jong-un-tours-singapore/
While there, Glorious Leader took a moment of his precious time to send heartfelt greetings to the esteemed leader of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin.
https://kcnawatch.co/newstream/1528753399-691681935/kim-jong-un-sends-greetings-to-russian-president/
(I note the extreme lack of any real coverage of the actual summit in Singapore from the central news agency. Apparently, he is there for mysterious reasons, and any ideas the citizens of greatest korea have about how the meeting is about the denulcearization of greatest korea are filthy imperialist lies, and anyone believing in them will be sent to mandatory reeducation camps.)
Post by: Starver on July 07, 2018, 01:27:42 pm
Whoops.
Post by: KittyTac on July 08, 2018, 01:07:44 am
Post by: Kagus on July 08, 2018, 08:02:08 am
Tells a lot when I can't tell if the US or NK is lying.
¿Por qué no los dos?
Post by: smjjames on July 08, 2018, 11:47:59 pm
Gangster-like mindset does describe Trumps attitude towards diplomacy though.
Post by: Descan on July 09, 2018, 11:17:54 am
Post by: misko27 on July 09, 2018, 11:23:48 am
Post by: Kagus on July 09, 2018, 11:57:35 am
Well as the phrase goes, a stopped clock is right every couple decades or so. Wait, that can't be right...Depends on how big your... clock... is.
Post by: SaberToothTiger on July 09, 2018, 12:16:02 pm
North Korea is a shitty place and has little excuse. This doesn't change the fact that the US is an exploitative, colonialist and imperialist thug, who claims to have reformed and to never have been a criminal.
Post by: Descan on July 09, 2018, 12:26:37 pm
Post by: SaberToothTiger on July 09, 2018, 12:31:09 pm
Post by: Starver on September 20, 2018, 10:55:45 am
Post by: Cyroth on September 20, 2018, 01:54:26 pm
I can't stop thinking that 'fast denuclearisation' (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45583586) involves sending everything nuclear down south, on the top of rockets...
Well, technically, if you launch all your nukes at somebody else you no longer have any, so goal accomplished.
Chalk up one victory for peace.
Post by: wierd on March 06, 2019, 03:20:23 am
The enemies of the JUCHE EMPIRE cower before the might of our fearless leader!
Post by: smjjames on March 06, 2019, 10:28:17 am
Post by: Starver on March 12, 2019, 07:23:47 am
(But nothing has actually changed. Or has it?)
Post by: smjjames on March 12, 2019, 12:17:15 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2019, 01:33:33 pm
Post by: Kagus on March 12, 2019, 01:42:32 pm
Quote
Like many other White House tell-alls that have been published during Trump's first term, it is said to paint an unflattering picture of the Trump administration as chaotic, with discord among its senior staff.
No, really?
Post by: Starver on March 31, 2019, 11:48:05 am
Lack of amusement by the Homeland is predictable.
Post by: Cheesy Honkers on May 23, 2019, 09:56:55 am
Post by: Reelya on May 27, 2019, 11:05:25 am
My take on that is that their weapons program was severely crippled by that accident 2 years ago that they tried to keep quiet. After that they switched, from threatening the USA with their potential weapons, to trying to use the remains of their weapons program as a bargaining chip. However ... to use something as a bargaining chip you need to ensure the other guy still thinks you have the thing. Hence, they fired off a couple of small rockets recently to maintain the illusion that they still have something worth negotiating away ...
The real problem here for NK is that they lost a lot of people in the accident, 200 dead, out of a total population of 25 million: which would be equivalent in scale to the USA losing about 3000 nuclear workers. And North Korea hardly has a university system that can replace whatever knowledge they lost. So, a key plank of the whole nuclear deterrent plan imploded on them, literally, and now they're trying to use whatever's left as a bargaining chip.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 28, 2019, 11:26:17 am
My take is that you shall perish under Dear Leader's nuclear fire, heretic
My take on that is that their weapons program was severely crippled by that accident 2 years ago that they tried to keep quiet. After that they switched, from threatening the USA with their potential weapons, to trying to use the remains of their weapons program as a bargaining chip. However ... to use something as a bargaining chip you need to ensure the other guy still thinks you have the thing. Hence, they fired off a couple of small rockets recently to maintain the illusion that they still have something worth negotiating away ...
The real problem here for NK is that they lost a lot of people in the accident, 200 dead, out of a total population of 25 million: which would be equivalent in scale to the USA losing about 3000 nuclear workers. And North Korea hardly has a university system that can replace whatever knowledge they lost. So, a key plank of the whole nuclear deterrent plan imploded on them, literally, and now they're trying to use whatever's left as a bargaining chip.
Post by: Cheesy Honkers on July 28, 2019, 02:04:05 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on July 28, 2019, 07:23:17 pm
BTW, that small missile launch NK did recently?
My take on that is that their weapons program was severely crippled by that accident 2 years ago that they tried to keep quiet. After that they switched, from threatening the USA with their potential weapons, to trying to use the remains of their weapons program as a bargaining chip. However ... to use something as a bargaining chip you need to ensure the other guy still thinks you have the thing. Hence, they fired off a couple of small rockets recently to maintain the illusion that they still have something worth negotiating away ...
The real problem here for NK is that they lost a lot of people in the accident, 200 dead, out of a total population of 25 million: which would be equivalent in scale to the USA losing about 3000 nuclear workers. And North Korea hardly has a university system that can replace whatever knowledge they lost. So, a key plank of the whole nuclear deterrent plan imploded on them, literally, and now they're trying to use whatever's left as a bargaining chip.
Makes me wonder what would happen if it hit a Chinese city. NK should proceed very carefully with their next launches.
Post by: Cheesy Honkers on July 28, 2019, 08:15:13 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on July 29, 2019, 05:05:23 am
I doubt it's THAT inaccurate and I seriously doubt the One True Korea has any intention of slapping their only (half-willing) friend on the bum like that.
I meant by accident, but yeah.
Post by: Reelya on April 22, 2020, 05:25:42 pm
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/death-of-kim-jongun-could-create-refugee-crisis-require-military-response/news-story/86f7cdd2b87cc1c5ddfc5d0f803a8ab2
Fatso is just livin' the life of a lazy fat blob, drinking, smoking, eating, and probably going to die before 40.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2020, 05:32:57 pm
Granted, back then I also was terminally propagandized about North Korea like most of the English internet. It's wild reading all of those flat-out fabricated articles that got circulated, and still are to some extent. And here we have the CIA continuing to do their thing and set up a reason for war, I guess.
Post by: ZBridges on April 22, 2020, 06:08:03 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 22, 2020, 06:18:38 pm
Probably wouldn't lead to any immediate significant changes in the government, though. Maybe a little more predictable.
Makes me wonder what he's sick with though...
Post by: ZBridges on April 22, 2020, 06:30:41 pm
Post by: Reelya on April 22, 2020, 07:43:49 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2020, 07:50:14 pm
The DPRK military I have yet to see any signs of unrest from. So far as I know, they like the Kims just fine. It's the urban wealthy and Christians who don't like the Kims the most, and the latter is politically irrelevant.
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 22, 2020, 08:25:21 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2020, 08:28:56 pm
Or not, but a lot of the links ever posted in this thread were just agitprop to set up an invasion of NK, as evidenced by all the hysterical stories of people executed in fantastic ways who later showed up alive and well. It's a situation even worse than Iran or China in terms of one-sidedness in the media.
Post by: Devastator on April 22, 2020, 08:40:40 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 23, 2020, 05:29:14 am
Post by: Reelya on April 23, 2020, 08:37:08 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 23, 2020, 08:46:36 am
You know where they go to discuss Juche ideology? To the trendy Juche bars in downtown Pyongyang.
Now Kim Yo-jong doesn't mind
If she doesn't make the scene.
She's got a daytime job, she's doing allright.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 23, 2020, 10:29:16 am
Sarcasm aside, my bets are on KJu having a contemporary virus - one that does not exist in Best Korea - and chances are that a full recovery will ensue. (That's if the whole thing is not an entire beat up in the first place.)
Separately: in terms of succession, I'd be backing his sister as some kind of 'regency' for his son. How long that particular arrangement might last is a good question though.
Post by: misko27 on April 23, 2020, 11:13:50 am
As for the Press angle, it's hard to say. On one hand it's definitely being reported a lot more heavily in those types of media (particularly the Murdoch Press), but I have seen other outlets touch on it (although without saying "refugee crisis, military action to come", that's super provocatory holy shit) such as the NY Times report on Kim being missing. He missed a public event he had not throughout his whole reign missed, honoring his grandfather. South Korea has downplayed reports, but something is up.
As for the corona angle, it's possible.
Post by: feelotraveller on April 23, 2020, 11:35:07 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29581342 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29581342)
Of course that proves nothing with regard to contemporary events but it makes for interesting re-reading in light of the spate current articles. 8) (And I'm sure you can find more sensationalised versions from back then if you want to look.)
Post by: scriver on April 24, 2020, 05:02:05 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 24, 2020, 05:03:53 am
What's the state of the full moon then and now? Is Kim secretly a were-wolf?New moon right now.
Full moon was around the 4th
Post by: scriver on April 24, 2020, 05:09:04 am
Post by: Kagus on April 24, 2020, 05:33:34 am
That's when he DISAPPEARED
Yeah, how come we've never seen Kim Jong-Un and the moon together in the same room? Seems pretty fishy to me.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 25, 2020, 03:04:44 pm
I'll just leave this here...
(https://i.ibb.co/nmFNp3m/IMG-20200425-WA0009.jpg)
Post by: Reelya on April 25, 2020, 03:15:25 pm
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-politics-exclusive/exclusive-china-sent-team-including-medical-experts-to-advise-on-north-koreas-kim-sources-say-idUSKCN2263DW
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 25, 2020, 03:27:19 pm
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 25, 2020, 03:48:14 pm
Hold on, the dude is only 36 years old?
Post by: feelotraveller on April 25, 2020, 03:51:50 pm
Post by: misko27 on April 25, 2020, 03:52:33 pm
Yeah I'm pretty surprised that these rumors are getting serious. Guess that's the price of not taking the virus seriously? My bet is if you want the truth, keep an eye on that sister.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 25, 2020, 03:54:55 pm
Post by: feelotraveller on April 25, 2020, 04:02:11 pm
Big step from that to Regime Change comes to Best Korea. Chances are like Boris he'll just spend a week or two in bed.
* It's also possible that KJ finally caved on covid-19 denial and immediately got paranoid about his own well-being, going into self-enforced isolation and demanding medical advisors from the local friendlies. We don't know enough to jump of the deep end.
Post by: Reelya on April 25, 2020, 04:14:37 pm
What we know is that he had a heart operation, and shit is apparently going down. I think it's a safe bet to say that he's unwell, but the coma part isn't necessarily correct.
Post by: Iduno on April 25, 2020, 04:23:27 pm
Post by: ZBridges on April 25, 2020, 04:27:49 pm
Post by: Reelya on April 25, 2020, 04:29:16 pm
https://www.tmz.com/2020/04/25/north-korea-dictator-kim-jong-un-dead-dies-heart-surgery-reports/
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 25, 2020, 04:33:09 pm
Post by: ZBridges on April 25, 2020, 04:38:21 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 25, 2020, 04:50:09 pm
I thought it might end up being her. I don't suppose she's known to be interested in reform?LMAO
Post by: ZBridges on April 25, 2020, 04:54:43 pm
Post by: feelotraveller on April 25, 2020, 06:05:17 pm
There's been no suggestion of corona though, feelotraveller. I think it's kind of silly that you reject what we do know because you can't personally confirm it, then jump straight to a coronavirus-related conspiracy.
What we know is that he had a heart operation, and shit is apparently going down. I think it's a safe bet to say that he's unwell, but the coma part isn't necessarily correct.
Which part of "might" and "We don't know enough to jump of [sic] the deep end" do you not understand. I'm not saying he has coronavirus but that would be a sufficient explanation of him being absent from the public limelight. And that absence is the only 'fact' we've seen. Beyond that there have been rumours and some reports from a couple of unreliable sources, and every one of them has said that they themselves have been unable to confirm the facts. Is it possible he had a heart operation, yes. But since you are so convinced that we know that he had perhaps you can point to a reliable source that has verified that?
Post by: Max™ on April 25, 2020, 08:52:12 pm
I mean, if you were working on fatboy would you be extra careful?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 25, 2020, 09:09:56 pm
When I was a first year resident I saw it happen to a woman who had just been discharged. She hadn't even started to gather her things when she collapsed.
Post by: Iduno on April 27, 2020, 11:52:52 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Maybe it is true.
Post by: Starver on April 27, 2020, 02:26:45 pm
I could totally see KJU being a Fortresseer. With a need to overuse DFHack, of course.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2020, 03:11:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: feelotraveller on May 02, 2020, 08:50:17 pm
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-north-korea-leader/after-rumours-about-health-north-korea-state-media-report-kim-jong-un-appearance-idUSKBN22D6DD?il=0 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-north-korea-leader/after-rumours-about-health-north-korea-state-media-report-kim-jong-un-appearance-idUSKBN22D6DD?il=0)
* Either that or the parallel dimensions are down another KJU, hee, hee.
Post by: Starver on May 02, 2020, 09:19:20 pm
To his people (not in on the plan) a mixture of credulity, loyalty and fear might be enough to let them use someone roughly of the same appearance, with a new Supreme Leader Haircut №1 if he didn't already have that one from the Approved List before being officially appointed.
Though, if they wanted to do that, they obviously failed, given that I've got more-than-a-suspicion about it.
I suppose it might be whatever it was that kept him out of the public/international eye for this period of time that could have changed him. Too much bed-rest and/or a minor but bruising face-lift and/or a change in diet/etc. But who knows. Well, I'm sure someone does, in Pyongyang or a Letter Agency regional department at the very least.
[1] I'm not as familiar with how the oriental face ages, as one closer to home might, and even then I'm far from a forensic expert.
(Obviously if I were to say that %Random_Ethnic_Person_1% looks indistingishable from %Random_Ethnic_Person_2% then I might be saying something with at least a hint of racism to it. I think I'm on safer ground potentially saying the complete opposite, but still a little self-conscious I might be falling into a very similar kind of trap.)
Post by: Frumple on May 02, 2020, 10:25:47 pm
Comparing pictures from the factory and historic ones, is that age[1] or illness or... someonething else causing the jowelly differences? I mean, how long can they have to search for someone who looks sorta-like him in the event of ever needing one, given that Saddam had a brace or more moustachioed lookee-likees on his payroll already.
Spoiler: thanks for the leviathan flashback (click to show/hide)
Post by: bloop_bleep on May 02, 2020, 11:32:05 pm
Comparing pictures from the factory and historic ones, is that age[1] or illness or... someonething else causing the jowelly differences? I mean, how long can they have to search for someone who looks sorta-like him in the event of ever needing one, given that Saddam had a brace or more moustachioed lookee-likees on his payroll already.
To his people (not in on the plan) a mixture of credulity, loyalty and fear might be enough to let them use someone roughly of the same appearance, with a new Supreme Leader Haircut №1 if he didn't already have that one from the Approved List before being officially appointed.
Though, if they wanted to do that, they obviously failed, given that I've got more-than-a-suspicion about it.
I suppose it might be whatever it was that kept him out of the public/international eye for this period of time that could have changed him. Too much bed-rest and/or a minor but bruising face-lift and/or a change in diet/etc. But who knows. Well, I'm sure someone does, in Pyongyang or a Letter Agency regional department at the very least.
[1] I'm not as familiar with how the oriental face ages, as one closer to home might, and even then I'm far from a forensic expert.
(Obviously if I were to say that %Random_Ethnic_Person_1% looks indistingishable from %Random_Ethnic_Person_2% then I might be saying something with at least a hint of racism to it. I think I'm on safer ground potentially saying the complete opposite, but still a little self-conscious I might be falling into a very similar kind of trap.)
If it was a look-alike then they probably wouldn't have let a video be taken of him from so close up. Maybe him waving from the balcony in the distance or something.
Post by: Max™ on May 03, 2020, 02:32:10 am
Post by: Cheesy Honkers on May 03, 2020, 06:25:06 am
Post by: sluissa on May 03, 2020, 09:25:47 am
Edit: I would probably rule out nanomachines though.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 03, 2020, 09:28:01 am
Post by: scriver on May 03, 2020, 10:28:38 am
Post by: misko27 on May 03, 2020, 11:58:53 am
Post by: Max™ on May 08, 2020, 01:36:27 am
I mean, not sure how he could miss it, not sure anybody could.
Post by: martinuzz on June 16, 2020, 03:45:32 am
This is the first military act of aggression between the countries in many years.
Post by: Folly on June 16, 2020, 03:47:27 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 16, 2020, 05:33:33 am
North Korea attacked and blew up the joint North-South Korean border post that was installed to ease communication between the two nations.Depends on your definition of "many years". Un started his regime in the early 2010s by shelling shit in SK and they've had other incidents since, sometimes with responses from SK, sometimes not. It doesnt happen every week, but there's been some sort of incident every couple of years.
This is the first military act of aggression between the countries in many years.
Post by: feelotraveller on June 16, 2020, 11:15:57 am
North Korea attacked and blew up the joint North-South Korean border post that was installed to ease communication between the two nations.
This is the first military act of aggression between the countries in many years.
Huh? Since when is demolishing one of your own buildings (in your own country) a "military act of aggression". Not quite sure why you're spin doctoring to this extent...
https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20200616008258325 (https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20200616008258325)
Communications have been on the fritz for quite a while. NK are upset that SK have not lived up to their part of the 2018 agreement and have got increasingly belicose. Military occupation of the 'demilitarised' zone is threatened. This action was also foreshadowed Saturday and drew no diplomatic response. Read all that against the background of US and SK inaction on (or rolling back of) their very limited concessions/agreements. Sure NK are behaving like little brats but please lets not get sucked into the propaganda - on either side.
Post by: Reelya on June 17, 2020, 06:41:42 am
Post by: Starver on June 17, 2020, 10:14:33 am
Post by: Reelya on August 30, 2020, 01:29:10 pm
Quote
Just days ago, rumours were rife that Kim Jong-un was in a coma and power was about to pass to his sister.
But pictures of the North Korean dictator have begun popping up all over the place.
Last week, there were snaps of him chairing political meetings here and inspecting typhoon ravaged fields there.
However, now there is another rumour taxing the minds of North Korea watchers. Where has Kim’s loyal sister, Kim Yo-jong, gone?
One minute she was leader-in-waiting, now she has vanished. She has been notably lacking from any recent images trickling out of the Hermit Kingdom.
Experts have said Ms Kim may have, inadvertently, made the biggest mistake a pretender to the Pyongyang throne can make. And it could end very badly for her indeed.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2020, 01:48:57 pm
How many times are we gonna have to go through the "Kim killed his uncle with rabid dogs oh wait he's fine" cycle?
Post by: Starver on August 30, 2020, 02:21:02 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 30, 2020, 07:12:25 pm
Post by: Cheesy Honkers on August 31, 2020, 08:03:57 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 22, 2020, 10:46:19 pm
Post by: Starver on March 24, 2022, 09:11:25 am
NK has test-launched a rocket (ICBM-class, whatever they say, but they don't seem to be too bothered) to a height of 6,000km.
Sent on a mostly vertical trajectory, to land practically in their back yard (in the Sea of Japan), prior generations of missile were sent to 3,000km and 4,500km. Estimates were that these would translate to 10,000km and 13,000km range, respectively, in more typical inter-continental trajectories. The former put LA in range, the latter took in basically the whole of the US (just). And, in the other direction would have easily found Europe (just over 10k km to Portugal) or even most of Africa (Johannesburg is just a tad over 13k km away.)
Assuming 6k km test-height maps to ~16k km of mission range (it'll not be so linear, but I'm not sure quite how non-linear) then that's a significant additional buffer for either a more evasive/surreptitious track or a greater payload. Though not, in itself, looking like a valid 'peaceful' satellite launcher. Much of South America remains out of the theoretical range (Brasilia is 17.5k-ish km away, launching westerly, Santiago more than 18k km easterly, as an example), but any of NK's traditional opponents are within the conceptual strike-range.
Not that they will, or necessarily have the warheads necessary (to make a launch more than a kinetic/explosive 'demonstration', once the world stops retaliating and works out what the provocation actually consisted of), but it's all adding to the obvious capabilities and potential ambitions in this peculiar little corner of the world.
Post by: Starver on February 09, 2023, 11:28:30 am
[...], this might be a girl to keep an eye on (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-64581465)!
Spoiler: Why it was transposed... (click to show/hide)