Post by: Meph on April 07, 2014, 06:58:35 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/1CxJo2v.png)
Please post all discussion, questions, suggestions and bug reports for Humans in this thread. Thank you.
The human race will be the next race to be developed. For now, this thread serves only to collect ideas by the community.
Post by: moseythepirate on April 07, 2014, 07:08:29 pm
Just an idea about the Caste system...might it be possible to limit how one advances through the castes? For example, a peasant needs to become a squire before it can become a knight. Also on the subject of the squire, I think it would make sense for the squire to not be that great in combat, but it gives nearby knights a buff.
Post by: Vabalokis on April 07, 2014, 07:14:47 pm
Post by: Meph on April 07, 2014, 07:24:18 pm
Squire buffing knight makes perfect sense.
Good masons were mentioned, maybe a 8-block-per-boulder ratio could be a thing. Or something akin to the dwarven Brick Oven.
Slower mining learning can be done, and leads to more aboveground forts. Good idea.
Post by: dshannon on April 07, 2014, 08:08:27 pm
This can then be used as a possible reagent in a form of ship-making, wood polishing or better yet, as a form of castle defence, maybe one which produces a physical liquid that acts like lava but burns out after time?
Post by: moseythepirate on April 07, 2014, 08:12:40 pm
Post by: Denisac on April 07, 2014, 08:16:31 pm
Make heavy cave adaptation a bad... BAD thing for humans (very miserable + sick). That would force more more open layouts for towns and force more above ground construction.
A dichotomy of light versus dark where having too many dark areas in living quarters and work areas can lead to random crime and even dementia over time (dark alley syndrome).
Dark cults and other random !FUN! which can pop up on its own if the people are not being properly shepherded by the righteous and pious clergy (who themselves could be at risk of the same corruption as everyone else).
If new specialized farms are being developed, cook in a slight chance of blights or other destructive events to occasionally harm outputs.
Make wealth a more coveted resource. Do not allow coinage to be directly created, but generated from various buildings/reactions and spent as a reaction resource.
Inns to attract random mercenaries from the 'Dwarven Legion' faction. Do not allow these characters to be hired/controlled, but have a slight chance of criminal behavior. They're basically fodder to 'buy' materials from the various marketplaces.
Marketplaces in general where visitors can congregate and generate coinage. Allow marketplace reactions to turn materials (food/booze/fish/etc) into a generic 'goods' resource.
Gambling dens, better at generating money, but tend to cause criminal behavior.
Allow accrued wealth to be spent to hire 'mercenaries' as part of migration waves. Basically make them war trained pets that have to be assigned to a civ member 'leader'. Upgradable to better equipment via reaction at a mercenary camp of sorts.
Allow wealth to be spent at the various faction shops to buy gear (dwarven steel, elven arrows, kobold poisons, etc).
Post by: blapnk on April 07, 2014, 10:21:20 pm
Maybe something to do with adventurers, might just because human towns are the only ones developed in adventure mode right now but humans seem pretty adventurous to me. Dwarves set out on expeditions, Orcs raid the seas and rivers, Warlocks send out minions to ravage the countryside, what if humans went out by themselves on quests of personal glory? It could give them combat experience as well. Your warriors need something to do if you're buying out all the invaders and creating a terrible time of peace and prosperity.
If they can't make steel I suppose mithril and bloodsteel are out too? Steeloak wood? Netherbark leather probably needs a drow connection like the orcs do. Honestly I can't remember the last time I made steel the normal way with flux and pig iron in masterwork.
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 08, 2014, 01:18:32 am
I had an idea a while back for a religion system that lets you build a generic altar, then consecrate it in the name of a particular god worshipped by at least one of the members of your community. By praying or sacrificing at the altar you can then improve your relationship with that god and get bonuses based on the particular god's spheres (or possibly penalties for neglecting them). I don't have good ideas for some of the spheres though. Obviously would require heavy dfhack use but it's certainly possible...
As for gnomes, you can make copies of the automatic machines if you really want to, but that probably wouldn't be thematically appropriate. The 'crate of technological wonders' is intended for trade though, it contains a random assortment of gnomish armor and weapons which should be appropriately sized if you open it with a reaction.
Post by: kingu on April 08, 2014, 02:58:56 am
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 03:34:54 am
- Cavalary
- IndigoFenix Pantheon/Religion
- Criminal behavior (maybe possible to fake with interactions)
- Multicultural fort (Currently I can spawn for example a Goblin civ member in a human fort, but all je does is hang around the meeting area and eat/drink. No labors)
- Denisacs Inns/Marketplaces (idlers/visitor mingling places)
- Tar liquid (I think thats impossible)
Good ideas:
- Tar-based defenses, like tarpots in weapon traps that start fires, or as catapult ammo.
- Heavy cave adaption. Perfect. Leads to open courtyards, windows and aboveground forts. (Maybe some form of lamp/torch/candle) that can be used to make humans temporarily immune, otherwise it would be impossible to fight/mine into caverns.)
- Before anyone asks: No, Rendermax light can not be hooked into that.
- Race-specific merchants. Base the merchant stalls on trade-permits you have to buy from the caravan. That makes sense and simulates the permanent merchant arriving with the caravan. These could sell all kinds of race-specific goods, making it more interesting than just "item merchant x".
- Mercenary "pets": Dont know about that one. Maybe human civ members with gear and combat skills you can buy? Pets invite all kinds of funky behaviour like pet-names, belonging to an owner, being butcherable, edible as foodsource, and wont carry gear and wont be treated in the hospital. Very curious if dfhack allows more options.
- Dark cults/Dark alley syndrome: Very advanced stuff, I will put it on the late late list together with magic and similar things. Its possible with interactions, but very timeconsuming to write and hard to balance.
- Casino: Never found a good way to write those wiyh raws, but warmist was working on some fancy idle-script, that allows idle workers to do jobs themselves... like playing games.
- (Major idea: Make use of this script to make idle humans a good thing. The more idlers you have, the more they use gambling, shops and the merchant stalls to generate income for you.)
Post by: Vabalokis on April 08, 2014, 04:30:09 am
Quote
Major idea: Make use of this script to make idle humans a good thing. The more idlers you have, the more they use gambling, shops and the merchant stalls to generate income for you.
that would be awesome
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 04:45:47 am
Post by: Kiefatar on April 08, 2014, 09:06:39 am
Have there be multiple Tiers of trading buildings for each race? Denoting increasing levels of trade/cooperation?
Libraries/Barrack reactions for training soldiers would be nice, and maybe a 'Quarry' building that allows them to generate stone blocks/boulders, potentially slowly, but so that mining is done exclusively for metals (or not at all and they acquire it via trade only). Combine with severe cave adaptation and it sounds good. I'd like the concept of them having an outside quarry that they then go and bring the stones back to the fortress, to make true above ground castles.
Maybe some advanced Wall/Floor reactions to improve creation speed?
Post by: LMeire on April 08, 2014, 11:00:49 am
Thieves would sneak up on idle workers and "pickpocket" them generating cash and possibly making the victim unhappy, if possible, pickpocketing should be seen as a crime by the guards but unnoticeable to ordinary citizens. Maybe a series of "front-shops" for the thieves' guild to increase the rate that thieves attempt a pickpocketing in addition to usual craft-production.
Assassins would be a military caste with naturally high dodge and ambush skills. The assassins' guild could be used to put a bounty on any unit on the map in exchange for an expensive fee, causing all assassins on the map to attack the targeted unit on sight. Assassinating a civ-member would still be seen as a murder if witnessed, but if possible should not start a loyalty cascade. Assassins might automatically target a worker that shares a grudge against someone, generating cash instead of costing it like a bounty.
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 11:45:53 am
Multi-tier traders is possible. I just have to avoid spamming too many new workshops.
Library maybe. I think it would be best to simply copy the dwarven library. I cant see how humans would set it up differently, and it causes less confusion for the player, since he/she already knows how it works.
Advanced wall/floor reaction? They are no reactions, but constructions. Giving higher mason and carpentry skill will accomplish that.
Quarry: I think an actual quarry that you dig would be much better. Strip mining a giant hole drops enough stones for construction and makes the tiles light/outside. This way you can mine in sunshine, level foe level. I think thats much nicer than a quarry-workshop.
lmeires assassins/thieves: I wouldnt even know where to begin to write something like this. AI modding cant be done.
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 02:14:07 pm
And perhaps "true" suits of armour, which are composed of both plate mail and chain mail for improved iron armour?
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 02:18:15 pm
Armor: Chainmail can already be worn under platemail.
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 02:19:32 pm
Whetstone to sharpen weapons: theoratically possible. it might get a bit confusing with equipping military though. (sharpened iron != iron)
Armor: Chainmail can already be worn under platemail.
I wish I knew that about the chainmail :P
Not sure if you can build gold or platinum weapons with any of your races already, but they are theoretically easy metals to work with, and much heavier blunt weapons might make a good compensation for only having iron edged weapons?
Edit: Or failing the above, an alloy of silver and lead or iron and lead to make them heavier?
Edit 2: Definitely powder weapons, and how about mortars, if you can make shrapnel occur upon explosion?
Ditto on cannons as siege weapons
Edit 3 (last one): Ah, powder weapons are already on there, but the handheld mortar/handcannon is a thing :P
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 02:29:19 pm
Siegeengine cannons: Maybe with dfhack. Warmist is the person to ask about that.
Post by: Dorenabel on April 08, 2014, 02:48:33 pm
- Aboveground-only farm workshops, like dairy farm, agriculture monocultures and mills.Is it have chance to include animal farm? Build workshops (with bureaucratic permission, written with inks and some rare ingredients on paper to keep it late game buildings) wich produce yarn, cheese, and even scales (also require blueprint available from dwarves), chitin (drow contract) for example, to reduce amount of animals from 500+ to reasonable amount and save late game fps? Well, ability to purchase all this with coins via some trade house also fine.
I have zero experience with DF modding, so everything below just ideas, which probably possible to implement.
Diplomacy - option to invite "enemy of my enemy" to repel invaders and leave items/corpses on ground much more appealing, but I afraid they will just camp map edge forever even if it possible.
Witchhunters - let them have own workshop. To send them in wilderness to hunt foul sorcerers and develop own magic in fortress with occasional loot they bring back (absolutely not foul, even this +dwarf cultist skin cloak+ as pure as childs tears. Our fort specializing in child's tears, ya know?) Of course they aren't interested in gold, but will gladly hunt whatever you want with orders (paper and ink to create one) from.. yes it's some bureaucratic structure again.
Caves, tunnels, underground - is it possible to add some kind of autospell to every human which spawn some faceless terror if he spent to much time underground (linked to cave adaptation, which even orcs have it seems)? Well, idea to make them appear in tunnels below surface, rip human apart and leave misleading message in combat log like "Peasant X suddenly noticed CreepyShadowHorror lurking in darkness" instead of "Peasant X summoned CreepyShadowHorror, which actually hostile / opposed to life". But opposed to life can be abused imho, so hostile to humans only civ should be better, but no idea is it possible or no.
As for gameplay aspects - take away magma from humans, let them order/purchase some fuel in tradehouse and give them bureaucracy. Dwarfs can pour all they see with magma, orcs can fight all they want, kobolds all about survival and short lifespan, warlock about sorcery, humans.. humans could do all this but they don't have permission in 3 exemplars signed by Gran Councellor, verified by Scrivener so.. ::)
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 02:58:34 pm
I cant take magma away from them, but with their cave adaption it will be hard to use. Could you please explain your creepyhorror idea further? I am not sure if I got that. Are you suggesting some form of fort-mode boogeymen that appear to heavily cave adapted humans?
Post by: Dorenabel on April 08, 2014, 04:01:43 pm
Creepyhorror - name isn't important, actually idea came from fact that adaptation grow over time and have some value stored memory, so somewhat can be used (no idea if it really can, and don't remember where it came from) to track how much creature spent time underground, otherwise it's just to random. Well, yes, fort-mode boogeymen, not creature randomly running around and listed as hostile but something suddenly appearing in darkness to stalk it's prey - each human who spent to much time in darkness, light source maybe negate effect (autobuff condition/possibility or banish creature) if possible, just otherwise i don't see any reason to not move underground. If they move slow - send 20 miners there, if they melt slow build 20 smelters, and it's always faster to dig rooms rather than build them. However if every descend in underground level organized like military operation it will give me good reason to build castle, not to dig one :) Also something new in game to have fun with. Maybe even for "Conquest of underground and horrors beneath" for some human forts :) So, pretty lame explanation because i don't know what to explain exactly.. Alot of caster already use spells wich they buff on themselves repeatedly, but it's mostly protective spells, (merchants in combat log animating dead to spawn animated weapon on arrival so probably somewhat possible to use spells to summon) so technically all human castes should have this "boogeyman spell" which they think is buff and able to cast, and will cast as soon as some condition met, some cave adaptation value in this case. So problem is - is it really possible to use adaptation value (or whatever else but no idea what else can be used) to initiate "harmful buffing" or not to summon creature around. Because if possible it's just like horror movie with terrors lurking in darkness and new aspect in game with not so friendly underground levels.. something like this. If bogeyman composed of something what dissolves on light titles it's even better but so far haven't seen anything like this in game.
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 04:09:20 pm
I can make heavily cave adapted humans spawn hostile boogeymen that either time out or die when exposed to the sun. First I would have to make sure that inside != underground, otherwise they would appear inside buildings as well.
"Fake" animal farms to help FPS by keeping the amount of pets down are possible, but I cant think of a neat way to do this. Plants are easy, Seed in, Plant out. But animal farms... i cant use animals as reagents.
Post by: LMeire on April 08, 2014, 04:14:07 pm
...
lmeires assassins/thieves: I wouldnt even know where to begin to write something like this. AI modding cant be done.
Ah well, I guess I got too excited.
To add to your agricultural buildings, how about Eel ponds for farming high-quality fish meat? IRL, eels were farmed all over Europe as a delicacy for feast-times, so I figure it's at least thematic. They could require an eel egg-sac to build and produce raw freshwater eels of a random gender for the fishery. Egg-sacs could have a low chance of being produced with every female eel caught.
Post by: Shardey on April 08, 2014, 04:16:03 pm
Different settlements could have bonuses for their specialization, let's say a special 'town hall' building which radiates some kind of bonus to the surrounding workshops. And you can only have one town hall of each kind.
Post by: arbarbonif on April 08, 2014, 04:27:13 pm
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 04:39:14 pm
Edit: and in addition to the above suggestion about dark-blindness, add whale-oil/kerosene/alcohol lamps that use the same mechanic as pylons from warlock tower (treated by animals by the game, but meant to be just objects, for easy deployment) that can easily be moved throughout the tunnels. I'm reading that kerosene was distilled in persia as early as the 9th century AD
Edit 2: Bonus points if they start fires when attacked
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 04:43:22 pm
Not seeing in the dark: That was what I was going for before I saw the boogeymen idea. Slow movements and malus on most things, except if equipped with a candle/torch. I cant do line-of-sight ti lightsources, except from creature to creature, like I do with skeleton to pylon/warlock in warlock mode. Maybe dfhack allows something like that.
AoE buffs for specific guilds: The guildhalls could make banners/signs. Immobile creatures that give guild-specific buffs. That would lead to specialised districts, for example jewelers and glassmakers would work faster near the jewelers banner. There could only ever be one banner per guild at the same time. The only issue with that it that I would have to make guilds a caste, exactly like in dwarf mode.
Features between forts on the worldmap I cant do.
Bennerman: Are you new to df or the mod? Peat can already be used as fuel (screw press & smelter) and power is temporal. If there is no manual labor, water or wind, it will stop.
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 04:44:59 pm
Eel pond: I thought I could just use the existing fish pond. But good to know, I did not know about the rl eel farming.
Not seeing in the dark: That was what I was going for before I saw the boogeymen idea. Slow movements and malus on most things, except if equipped with a candle/torch. I cant do line-of-sight ti lightsources, except from creature to creature, like I do with skeleton to pylon/warlock in warlock mode. Maybe dfhack allows something like that.
AoE buffs for specific guilds: The guildhalls could make banners/signs. Immobile creatures that give guild-specific buffs. That would lead to specialised districts, for example jewelers and glassmakers would work faster near the jewelers banner. There could only ever be one banner per guild at the same time. The only issue with that it that I would have to make guilds a caste, exactly like in dwarf mode.
Features between forts on the worldmap I cant do.
Bennerman: Are you new to df or the mod? Peat can already be used as fuel (screw press & smelter) and power is temporal. If there is no manual labor, water or wind, it will stop.
I don't think I've ever had to use peat. Always had plenty of lignite and coal
Post by: Dorenabel on April 08, 2014, 04:50:28 pm
"Fake" animal farms to help FPS by keeping the amount of pets down are possible, but I cant think of a neat way to do this. Plants are easy, Seed in, Plant out. But animal farms... i cant use animals as reagents.If issue because you need animal - no idea aswell. But fishpond in game already and dwarves could summon some food (i hope they could, but i don't trust to my memory), kobolds could steal it so probably issue isn't in animal.
If issue because you want to make it neat - i had idea, but it was something like
-use coins to purchase at farm - no farming skill involved.. plain, simple, boring but stable because it was done alot already. And it more like tradehouse rather than farm.
-or worker taking orders signed in 3 exemplars and moving to farm to work there, because he have orders to do so and stock forts with 5 scales/ shear sheep for some wool, etc etc and resulted amount depends from worker skill in shearing or another farming skill related to task. But seems bureaucracy haven't passed idea firewall, so doesn't matter. :P
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 04:53:56 pm
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 04:56:32 pm
In addition, apparently the early english used to cut and polish them into ornaments, maybe giving it a medium material value if you craft it?
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 04:59:39 pm
Post by: Dorenabel on April 08, 2014, 05:00:57 pm
Post by: bennerman on April 08, 2014, 05:01:47 pm
Oil shale is in the mod already. ;) And candles made from oil should be there as well, simulating what you just described. Dwarf mode should have all of this already. :)
Holy crap, I am off my game today. I'm gunna go play dwarf fortress for a few days to get my knowledge up-to-snuff (bearing in mind my last major fort was over 6 months ago) :P
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2014, 05:09:59 pm
Not really, between me and japan was Japanese sea for 30 years but i never crossed it. Same country as Deon.Ok thanks. It was just a thought. When I read your text I automatically kinda read it with a japanese accent, because of the grammar. It remindet me of some friends from japan/korea. Sorry for being offtopic. ^^
Bennerman: Look at kiln and chandler. :)
Post by: Denisac on April 08, 2014, 11:29:45 pm
Thinking of some of the old folk tales regarding a cursed chair that doomed anyone who sat in it to a horrible death before the month's end or the more contemporary 'mummy's' curse that was really just a nasty fungal syndrome caked on a piece of jewelry.... Maybe work it in with the boogeyman idea.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 09, 2014, 12:17:12 am
So I'd like to add some fun or maybe !FUN! into humans.
"He needs MONEY to get through the working day."
I don't know if it is possible though. It would be nice to record personal wealth. Maybe you can use the alcohol dependent variables, or a "bank" workshop, or an organ named "wallet" which can be "injured", literally.
Every high-end reaction, from forging a kiteshield to brewing red wine, needs a small amount of coins, and results in wealth increment of the worker who run the reaction. humans tend to waste a lot of labor in minting (and spending) money.
Men would be unhappy if had not earned money for too long. Unemployment is a big problem in human society.
So players should worry about the number of idle men. We can buy some raw material and offer those poor men a job to make some trade goods, and sell them to buy more raw material to produce more goods and coins and more happy workers. It' driven by the human nature of greedy and industrious.
And If you like the paradox of vanilla anvils, you can add coin consuming to the reactions of mint.
Post by: LMeire on April 09, 2014, 01:14:37 am
Post by: Jiamil on April 09, 2014, 02:08:11 am
I would think, that steel would be a necessetiy if you want to make them look medieval (like you want it, if I read this thread correctly). Everything above steel, well, I would say is too much for humans I would say.
Post by: blapnk on April 09, 2014, 05:42:08 pm
This is why like I something to do with adventurers, because most of my interactions with humans in dwarf fortress has been in adventure mode and all the three main races start their adventures in a human town (in current version).
These suggestions require dfhack:
- Cavalary
- IndigoFenix Pantheon/Religion
- Criminal behavior (maybe possible to fake with interactions)
- Multicultural fort (Currently I can spawn for example a Goblin civ member in a human fort, but all je does is hang around the meeting area and eat/drink. No labors)
What about other races as sterile castes of humans? Would that be too much of a kludge? Humanised/Assimilated dwarves and elves who have long since left their original culture. Or in the cases where their race doesn't have a civilisation at all, they just wandered in from the wild with no where else to go in the way you can make outsider adventurers.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 09, 2014, 06:54:42 pm
These suggestions require dfhack:
- Cavalary
- IndigoFenix Pantheon/Religion
- Criminal behavior (maybe possible to fake with interactions)
- Multicultural fort (Currently I can spawn for example a Goblin civ member in a human fort, but all je does is hang around the meeting area and eat/drink. No labors)
What about other races as sterile castes of humans? Would that be too much of a kludge? Humanised/Assimilated dwarves and elves who have long since left their original culture. Or in the cases where their race doesn't have a civilisation at all, they just wandered in from the wild with no where else to go in the way you can make outsider adventurers.
The problem with creature castes is that there is no way to control what castes are born, only the frequency in which the castes appear. Even though elves, goblins, dwarves, etc. would be sterile in your suggestion, humans would be able to give birth to dwarves, goblins, and elves.
Post by: bennerman on April 09, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
A magma desalinator. Saltwater and magma go in, the water is boiled in a retort or still, the steam is condensed back into desalinated water, and the salt can be used as a cooking ingredient. Thoughts?
Post by: moseythepirate on April 09, 2014, 07:47:59 pm
Ok, I'm not sure if you can make this, but I think this is a very solid idea:
A magma desalinator. Saltwater and magma go in, the water is boiled in a retort or still, the steam is condensed back into desalinated water, and the salt can be used as a cooking ingredient. Thoughts?
Interesting idea...doesn't seem very humany though. Most salt production by real life humans has been either mining rock salt or old-fashioned solar pond...
OH! You meant the purpose would be desalinization...still doesn't seem very humany.
Post by: bennerman on April 09, 2014, 07:49:37 pm
Ok, I'm not sure if you can make this, but I think this is a very solid idea:
A magma desalinator. Saltwater and magma go in, the water is boiled in a retort or still, the steam is condensed back into desalinated water, and the salt can be used as a cooking ingredient. Thoughts?
Interesting idea...doesn't seem very humany though. Most salt production by real life humans has been either mining rock salt or old-fashioned solar pond...
OH! You meant the purpose would be desalinization...still doesn't seem very humany.
Humans have always had a talent of thriving on the sea. This is a good way to make that easier.
Edit: you have elves in the forests and dwarves in the mountains. Let the humans have the sea xP
Post by: lcy03406 on April 09, 2014, 08:58:54 pm
you have elves in the forests and dwarves in the mountains. Let the humans have the sea xPYou are not serious. Human have the plain.
Post by: Arcvasti on April 09, 2014, 09:11:46 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on April 09, 2014, 09:39:09 pm
"Fake" animal farms to help FPS by keeping the amount of pets down are possible, but I cant think of a neat way to do this. Plants are easy, Seed in, Plant out. But animal farms... i cant use animals as reagents.You can make it more realistic, for example, hay in, milk out.
But I'd argue against the animal farms. The problem is not how, but why. Trading works jut fine. Who need so many domestic animals that hurts FPS?
Every caravan brings more than enough cheese, leather, yarn, fresh heart, meat.
We can also buy meat from trading workshops, in case of starving.
The reason why we have too many animals is not about the product at all. It's about the animal itself. So an animal farm can't help much.
Someone, sometimes want an army of cragtooth boars, or ironclad horses for human.
Want cats to hunt vermin.
Want drake scales. I doubt human's ability in breeding drakes. It's better to buy the scales from dwarves.
Want eggs. Egg is not better than meat in any aspect. Animal farm has not the same sense of hen and nest box. So it's not useful and not fun.
Want pets to make people happy. You can write an reaction of "look at the beautiful birds", but it's better to actually look at some statues in the meeting hall.
So the best way of keeping the amount of pets down, is not to breed them at all. We don't need an alternative way to breed them, really.
Post by: Meph on April 10, 2014, 06:23:06 am
I think Dwarves, Humans and Orcs as easier to play races, and Warlocks, Gnomes and Kobolds for more experienced players is fitting.
I am not sure if I want to do a clergy/christian belief thing, because it simply does not fit DF. Dwarves have Armok of course and that Warlocks meddle with demons from hell makes sense, but there is nothing in the game that supports the idea of god, the church, heaven and angels. Even more so since the humans will be shown as worshippers of all kinds of procedually generated gods ingame.
But if someone does come up with some dfhack pantheon religion feature, I would of course add it. Putnam, Warmist and IndigoFenix come to mind, all three have at least mentioned things like that.
I think writing the humans will be much easier than the Warlocks, because the modding behind the traders and guilds is not new territory. I just have to expand the features that already exist in dwarf mode. The only difficult ghing will be balancibg the traders. Avoiding people walling in and buying everything from these merchant stalls all the time, with no outside access.
Post by: bragos on April 10, 2014, 06:53:08 am
These trade supplies would make the operation of the trade stalls possible (like warlock pylons for instance), but would expire after a certain time. Because the expiration one would need to aquire the supplies regularly.
By making then only available as trade goods (like licences) you force the player to trade with the caravans.
Post by: Jiamil on April 10, 2014, 07:11:42 am
Maybe make the prices extremely high, so importing goods with the normal merchants is the more cost efficient option. Or maybe place a random element to the traders, so in some cases the trade won't happen because the bartering failed or prices are even higher than normal (which might give a bad thought like "Made a bad deal recently"). Makes it a little more like a gamble.
Another thought to this could be "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" traders: the first offer only a small amount of different goods and are meant for early game, the second would have a wider range but need a Trad License in order to be built (which need to be imported).
Is it possible to make a workshop need access to the outside?
Post by: kingu on April 10, 2014, 07:42:19 am
Also, Is masterworks humans as they look now going to change? It will be strange if humans with access to muskets and pistols in unable to use steel.
Post by: Kiefatar on April 10, 2014, 08:54:57 am
Also, Bandit Kings, have some sort of raiding system? Opposite end of the trading spectrum? I'd also bump up human learning rates to take into account their shorter lives.
Also... Berserkers, great big nordic types that run around with 2 handers, maybe some sort of charge or rage mechanic? A few unique military types would be nice.
Post by: Stronghammer on April 10, 2014, 12:33:53 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on April 10, 2014, 02:12:49 pm
For the prevention of walling in the trade stalls, maybe you could mod in a some sort of "trade_supplies".
These trade supplies would make the operation of the trade stalls possible (like warlock pylons for instance), but would expire after a certain time. Because the expiration one would need to aquire the supplies regularly.
By making then only available as trade goods (like licences) you force the player to trade with the caravans.
Honestly, I've always found that needing to trade with caravans to unlock an entire aspect of your fort is obnoxious and restrictive. You are suddenly dependent DF's fickle trade mechanics, which is no fun at all. I do like the idea of expiring trade supplies, but making it dependent on caravans would get awful quickly. Make them available on caravans, by all means, but not reliant on them.
Post by: Kiefatar on April 10, 2014, 02:21:13 pm
Post by: Denisac on April 10, 2014, 08:51:14 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on April 10, 2014, 10:48:15 pm
Avoiding people walling in and buying everything from these merchant stalls all the time, with no outside access.With no outside access and absolute safety, you can't do anything to attract them out, because all they need is grow turnips year by year. Any trade goods are not more attractive than absolute safety, and not necessary if you are absolutely safe.
Dwarves can also wall off the world (and magma-flood it) and live a self-sufficient life, grow plump helmets year by year.
If players don't want to play fun, you can't force them to play.
Post by: bennerman on April 10, 2014, 11:22:51 pm
You can't make steel, but what if you have to supply them with coke and iron to supply them, and then pay in sovereigns to "commission" weapons out of those materials?
That way you can give them supplies for "Dwarven supplies" or buy "dwarven supplies" from a caravan?
Post by: Jiamil on April 11, 2014, 12:52:22 am
The dwarven smith could make it easier to get stell mid to late game, as long as you got some
Post by: omniclasm on April 11, 2014, 04:56:41 am
However, that is not possible as far as I know in the game. Unless you make a really weird "mounted" caste that is basically a centaur lol
Post by: Denisac on April 11, 2014, 04:00:17 pm
Post by: Meph on April 11, 2014, 05:51:04 pm
Wolfram/Titanium etc just from dwarves.
Adamantine not at all, Dwarves wouldnt give this knowledge/metal to humans.
The dwarven merchant would pay a lot for raw adamantine though.
Sounds good?
Post by: CptCrunchy on April 11, 2014, 06:04:11 pm
Post by: danmanthedog on April 11, 2014, 06:38:42 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on April 11, 2014, 08:51:30 pm
I think that you should put a new metal in for humans that only they only have access to... like maybe Aerogel for arrows and bolts and Starlite for armor. I also think that they should be enemy to drows, orcs, goblins, and maybe elfs because humans cause more damage to trees.I vote against this. We have too many kinds of metal now. It's a pain to set uniforms while some pieces are iron, and some are ironbone, and some others are lamellar leather. (I'll bring ores on embark and don't touch ironbone anymore, when play as dwarves.) I think we should not put in new metals for every new race unless necessary.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 11, 2014, 08:56:33 pm
Judging from the poll: Steel it is.
Wolfram/Titanium etc just from dwarves.
Adamantine not at all, Dwarves wouldnt give this knowledge/metal to humans.
The dwarven merchant would pay a lot for raw adamantine though.
Sounds good?
Good.
Another question about tech level.
You should give human enough tech to build high-pressure chambers and make artificial diamonds. That's because you said this in dwarf manual:
Quote
And the most awesome show of dwarven might: Press coal together so hard, that it becomes a diamond. Humans need high-pressure chambers for this, but dwarves do it with their biceps.
Post by: Jiamil on April 12, 2014, 01:18:35 am
Quote
Judging from the poll: Steel it is.
Wolfram/Titanium etc just from dwarves.
Adamantine not at all, Dwarves wouldnt give this knowledge/metal to humans.
The dwarven merchant would pay a lot for raw adamantine though.
Sounds good?
Yes, it does.
Post by: Avacado on April 12, 2014, 01:37:16 am
My idea for the central "idea" of the human race was that money should rule everything.
The most basic custom building for the humans would be the Caravan stop, which would allow you to sell basic luxuries (Gems, Bullion,Silk, Spices, Wines, dyes) , and purchase Guild writs, which would work like the trade permit item for the dwarves. Guild writs would allow you to build Guildhouses, which would be the backbone of the progression system. Guildhouses would handle the training humans to castes, and would allow the purchase of building and item schematics.
For example: The basic forge would only allow basic, shoddy armor and weapons to be made (Humans are not natural craftsmen like the dwarves). However once the blacksmith's guild is built, you can buy the schematics for the advanced forge (which would take a few other tools like grindstones, calipers, hammers, etc). The advanced forge would then be able to produce any advanced weapon or armor that you've purchased the schematics for. You could then have an even more expensive forge available for older forts.
The other way that I felt that a gold economy could affect the humans, is to have them start at peace with every not-entirely-monsterous civ at the start, and have the different races declare war once the player has amassed enough gold.
---
Another Idea that I had was that since humans are really the only "farming" race in a lot of fiction, why not give the ability to do horticulture?
There would be different "tiers" of each human-only crops, of which only the basic will be available. When seeds are produced, there would be a small chance to produce a cluster of seeds of the next tier (If this is not available, a horticulture station that takes in seeds and has a chance to return an upgraded seed would do).
An example would be:
Wild corn would be extremely low value food, and could not be used to produce much of anything other than animal feed.
Domesticated corn would have a higher value than most other plants, would grow in larger clusters, and could be used to make various powders/extracts and corn whisky.
Improved corn would be yet more valuable and efficient, and could be used to make higher tier food items, or even industrial ethanol for other reactions.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 03:00:18 am
And I finally know what to do with paper. Printing paper money. :)
icy03406: That was more a joke. RL modern humans have high prrssure chambers for that, not medieval ones ;)
No new metals. New plants or maybe silk types (luxury tradegoods again), but we have enough metals.
Post by: HereticUK on April 12, 2014, 05:31:12 am
What about magic for humans? Whenever I think of humans (in a fantastical world) I always think of priests and paladins from WoW or some similar lore. In which case I would say the single God/Christianity style religion could be quite good for that as it would tie-in nicely. Alternatively, a multi-god religion could work well when tied in with magic: priests of each god could have access to different spells.
I, for one, would prefer the multi-god religion because that could add a lot of variety to the humans.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 08:36:51 am
Post by: palu on April 12, 2014, 10:14:18 am
Post by: Denisac on April 12, 2014, 11:41:04 am
I think I'm starting to get a bit far afield on ideas, but something about a screaming horde of invaders coming around the corner into the waiting jaws of doom is appealing.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 12:53:57 pm
- They shoot extremely slowly.
- The projectiles explode and do massive damage/fire.
- They need to be manually loaded after each shot.
Loading would work like this: Cannon stand on or next to a small workshop, the arsenal. Or whatever name fits well for powder and cannonball storage. These workshops are cheap and you will probably make several along you walls. A human runs the "load cannon" reaction which costs one cannonball. It gives the cannon creature the interaction to shoot once. It would shoot automatically and on invaders in sight, across zlevels. This means you could have the cannon in line of sight of enemies, but your human civilians are just out of sight, which allows them to reload in combat. The cannons AI would also ignore most wildlife, its pretty much against other races only.
Cannons would be build at a specific forge, ammo as well... and they can be upgraded with higher skills that allow them to shoot more precise.
Post by: danmanthedog on April 12, 2014, 03:48:50 pm
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 04:44:11 pm
Brimstone and Saltpeter can even be made from potash (unlimited) and gypsum.
For humans it would obviously be tied to guilds. Alchemists Guild? Blacksmiths Guild? Cannons should be high end. Or at least expensive.
Post by: moseythepirate on April 12, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
Just a thought, maybe the workshop that you mount the canon on could be called "canon mount" or "canon turret" to make it clear that you are supposed to put the canon on it.
Post by: Denisac on April 12, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
Post by: Vherid on April 12, 2014, 06:45:19 pm
A very imperialistic group devoted to purging the land of the unclean for the greater will of god. A huge focus on a christianity like religion, but with an even more extreme devotion to it, fantasy style, almost similar to some of such religions among humans in Warhammer. Human branding of religious runes, clergy, devotion above all else. I pictured a 19th century russian appearance/weaponry, great coats, ushankas, huge bardiches/melee weaponry and muskets/gunpowder weaponry. Huge focus on masonry and carpentry, mining allowed, but less or no living underground, lack of sun = depression. I pictured possibly similarities to Khador of Warmachine. Also of course, vodka. You could also take all of this and mix it with a germanic steel knight reiksguard type of deal.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 06:49:14 pm
They can miss their target, I count that as missfire enough.
Maybe a 5x1 and a 1x5 workshop would be good. Human works in the middle, cannons stand at both ends near open space or fortifications.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 06:57:41 pm
Same goes for Comrade Warhammer Inquisition. ;) 19th century appearance and weaponry is not what I had in mind for an integral part of Masterwork DF. Remember, other races will have to fight against them. (or trade with)
Post by: Vherid on April 12, 2014, 07:11:06 pm
However the idea of making these guys "realistic" and equating to RL medieval, is a really weird idea to me, considering the base game, and furthermore this mod itself doesn't really apply to that, at all.
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 07:21:17 pm
If the playable humans are based on expanding features that are already known from dwarf mode and are naturally accessable because people know them from RL historical knowledge... it should ease their way into playing them.
Gnomish rocketboots and brainjack? wtf. I dont even. Pylons? Feral Ghouls? Shadowbeasts? O.o
Human halberds and turnips? Hey, I know these words. You eat one and hit people with the other.
Post by: Vherid on April 12, 2014, 07:24:29 pm
Post by: Meph on April 12, 2014, 07:36:18 pm
Post by: dshannon on April 12, 2014, 07:41:17 pm
Human halberds and turnips? Hey, I know these words. You eat one and hit people with the other.
Yup mhmm mhmm, I would totally hit a kobold with a turnip, hmmm :D kabob halberd?
Post by: bennerman on April 12, 2014, 08:25:29 pm
Avacado, these suggestions are amazing. Horticulture can be done and using the guilds as basis I wanted to do anyway... but your idea is even better. If the guilds cost gold than players will have to start with trading... then build one industry at a time, getting better gear and tradegoods, unlocking more industries because they make more money.
And I finally know what to do with paper. Printing paper money. :)
icy03406: That was more a joke. RL modern humans have high prrssure chambers for that, not medieval ones ;)
No new metals. New plants or maybe silk types (luxury tradegoods again), but we have enough metals.
How about making paper money require one sheet of paper and one sheet of cloth? There is simply zero chance of 100% paper notes surviving in the hands of middle aged peasants.
How about adding mulberry trees as both a source of food, and a requirement for silkworm farms, as another renewable source of silk? The best part is, you can use them for both at the same time (The silkworms only eat the leaves, and the people only eat the berries).
Post by: Propman on April 12, 2014, 08:38:13 pm
Post by: bennerman on April 12, 2014, 08:40:41 pm
Humans in Dwarf Fortress seem to be based off of both Middle Eastern (pyramids, head veils, predominantly square buildings, scimitars, ect.), and Mediterranean (bronze and copper are the predominant metals, pantheons and temples) cultures more then they are medieval western European. On religion, I'd say it should be possible for humans to be either monotheistic or pantheonic based on the civilization in question, but until Toady allows such variance, it would perhaps be more accurate to make them polytheistic given the current assets. Definitely keep an option for human civs to variate heavily in the future, however.
Nice catches. For some reason, I assumed they were Western European (England, French, etc)
Post by: LMeire on April 12, 2014, 09:00:19 pm
First of all, humans would need some method of procuring salt. I figure the easiest ways would be either grinding rocksalt at a mill or evaporating sea-water somehow.
Second, an extension of the vanilla butchery: the "Smokehouse". The most basic function of a smokehouse would be to take a bag of salt and a stack of meat and combine them into an empty bag and a higher value "cured meat" stack. Further functions would take this cured meat and a log to produce an even higher valued "smoked meat" stack and maybe some ash, there could be a different "flavor" of meat for every type of log burned in the reaction.
Third, an "Artisans' Cheesemaker" the whole concept would be taking a barrel of milk, an over-ground spicy plant of some sort, and a bag of "yeast" made by either grinding an underground plant or a boulder of cavefungus at the mill, and turning it into a few wheels of high valued artisan-cheese.
Fourth, a "Bakery" that would take flour, yeast, eggs, fuel, and milk to produce loaves of bread in bulk. In addition, the bakery could have additional recipes that require sugar and a berry plant to produce high value pastries.
Last, have the higher-tier foods give sort sort of temporary happiness buff when they're eaten. Like, maybe increase their resistance to tantruming/insanity or something, or maybe a small boost in speed to simulate how much healthier they are now that they're actually cooking their food instead of just eating it raw.
Post by: danmanthedog on April 12, 2014, 09:29:38 pm
Post by: blapnk on April 12, 2014, 09:34:46 pm
Could there be a way to boost the meat output of livestock with buffs similar to how turning undead increases size and muscles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113638.0). Clearly it's something that could be weaponized, but maybe using the same mechanic to buff the war animals could work. The problem of balance is one is a pure economic decision: the cost should be less than the extra meat you'll get out of it. The other is improving the cost effectiveness of a war unit. It's all fine when you're just giving steroids to your sheep dogs but then you buy some war elephants from the elves...
And speaking of the animals, I feel they should be able to armour horses if nothing else. Being followed around by a steelclad horse is the next best thing to actively riding one. Could they have an interaction to give a speed buff, possibly to humans only? I'm guessing it'll be impossible to have it targeted at their assigned partner, so would the other options be too counter-intuitive or fiddly? If it's a single target you know they're going to chose the wrong person. Or if they have a general low level buff to everyone around them to represent the general use of work animals in day to day life improves productivity and combat effectiveness, is that too abstract? A low enough buff that's not game breaking, it might not be worth going out of your way to get it, and definitely not worth micro managing, but you can a least feel that those horses blowing out gas around your meeting area are giving you a net boost and a reason to have them over some more productive meat producers.
For producing mass bricks for constructions, maybe they can have a way of turning dirt into mud bricks like the orcs can quickly turn clay into earthenware blocks (I haven't checked to see if that reaction can take dirt as well as clay. I do remember the dwarves used to be able to turn dirt into slade...).
Silly ideas: Humans can do a lot with dirt. Some are even employed as full time mud farmers. They can even make food out of it for the poorest of them. You can tell if someone's important because they're not covered in mud.
Post by: CptCrunchy on April 12, 2014, 09:44:59 pm
There could be a reaction in a workshop somewhere called Become a Cavalryman that requires steel armor and bars for the man, horse and weapon.
There is the problem with them dropping their gear when they transform, though I suppose you could just not assign anything toyour military mounted humans.
Post by: bennerman on April 12, 2014, 10:17:42 pm
In regards to mounted humans, could they potentially be like werecreatures/druids? Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the idea of having a mounted human caste kind of like a centaur, is it possible to have a human transform into a mounted human when they see an enemy? Maybe have the 'mounted human' transformation have the equivalent of steel armor/steelclad horse armor, and a sword/mace/axe arm like the animated armors do. It would seem a bit silly to have them constantly in horse-mounted mode when not in battle, and it doesn't seem like a new transformation would be difficult to do.
There could be a reaction in a workshop somewhere called Become a Cavalryman that requires steel armor and bars for the man, horse and weapon.
There is the problem with them dropping their gear when they transform, though I suppose you could just not assign anything toyour military mounted humans.
The problem is, killing either the horse OR the human would kill both, because they would count as one entity. While falling from a horse in battle would POSSIBLY kill you, and almost certainly cripple you, I wouldn't think the odds are high enough to justify a death like that
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 12, 2014, 10:25:15 pm
-snip-
The problem is, killing either the horse OR the human would kill both, because they would count as one entity. While falling from a horse in battle would POSSIBLY kill you, and almost certainly cripple you, I wouldn't think the odds are high enough to justify a death like that
Depends on how they die. If one gets bisected, they both die, but if one loses a head, the other will still survive.
That creates the problem of a headless horse still moving and attacking just fine, or a headless rider still swinging their weapons.
Post by: bennerman on April 12, 2014, 10:26:30 pm
-snip-
The problem is, killing either the horse OR the human would kill both, because they would count as one entity. While falling from a horse in battle would POSSIBLY kill you, and almost certainly cripple you, I wouldn't think the odds are high enough to justify a death like that
Depends on how they die. If one gets bisected, they both die, but if one loses a head, the other will still survive.
That creates the problem of a headless horse still moving and attacking just fine, or a headless rider still swinging their weapons.
When you say it out loud, it seems more awesome than problematic XD
Post by: Avacado on April 13, 2014, 01:14:35 am
Like, maybe increase their resistance to tantruming/insanity or something, or maybe a small boost in speed to simulate how much healthier they are now that they're actually cooking their food instead of just eating it raw.
I kind of like this idea of the diet slowly influencing a human's stats; something like eating preserved meats would boost Strength a tiny amount, baked goods would increase endurance, Hard Alcohol/Beer would increase pain tolerance, fine wines would increase social stats, etc.
Post by: Propman on April 13, 2014, 01:15:16 am
Post by: Meph on April 13, 2014, 04:08:50 am
2. Hybrid human/horse cavalary: No. Really. They couldnt even get their own graphics(since civ member graphics are profession, not caste dependant)
3. Full time Mudfarmers? Mudfarmers. ... JAYNE! THE MAN THEY CALL JAYNE! (sorry, had to do it.)
4. Vanilla df humans as mediterean/greek: Good catch. They also have western articles though. It seems Toady wanted to cover Europe and bordering regions (near orient, but no indians, mayas incas, chinese or japanese, aboriginies, maoris or red indians) Its mostly european, ottoman/arabic...
No idea how to add this. Maybe I can make several versions of humans and only the entity file is different. Changing the weapons/armor/clothing/language and creature sprites should be enough to make several human races. That way people could tick "play as king/sultan/caesar/shogun"
Post by: blapnk on April 13, 2014, 08:30:23 am
However some basic wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe) research says mudbricks use organic material like straw and manure in the mixture too which could work as a reagent. Following the orc fort pattern of brick production you could have something like:
Mold clay/dirt (5) into bricks (40) with plants: 5 clay/dirt + stack of any plant = 40 adobe bricks
Mold clay/dirt (5) into bricks (40) with water: 5 clay/dirt + bucket of water = 40 adobe bricks + empty bucket
The batch of bricks would then need to be sundried the same as other pottery products but not need fuel for firing at the end. Technically using a wicker bale or bundle of hay might be better but the idea is for a way to make lots of cheap bricks quickly. You could have options to make adobe bricks out of sand bags too.
Post by: Meph on April 13, 2014, 08:39:39 am
Post by: blapnk on April 13, 2014, 12:55:24 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on April 13, 2014, 10:20:59 pm
While i can belief that powder sometimes didnt fire, I dont think that they ever exploded. Its a big chunk of metal, after all. If I add misfiring, I predict people coming by with "bug reports" about cannons that dont always fire.
They can miss their target, I count that as missfire enough.
Maybe a 5x1 and a 1x5 workshop would be good. Human works in the middle, cannons stand at both ends near open space or fortifications.
The tower would be as follows. I assume the two tiles between the cannons and the working place is solid and cut the line of sight.
Code: [Select]
FFWWWFF
FCBHBCF
FXWXWXF
FCBHBCF
FFWWWFF
where F=fortification, W=Wall,X=up/down stairs, B=the solid tiles in the workshop, H=human, C=CannonThe problem is that it's not a square tower, and it doesn't cover the space directly to the north or south.
I suggest 1x3 and 3x1 workshops.
Code: [Select]
OOOFFFOOO
OOOFCFOOO
OOOWBWOOO
FFWWHWWFF
FCBHXHBCF
FFWWHWWFF
OOOWBWOOO
OOOFCFOOO
OOOFFFOOO
where O=open spaceThis particular tower needs more micro-control to build because you must build floors first and build the workshop and put the cannon, and replace the floor with fortifications. But it's more beautiful.
EDIT: I find this tower design is amazing for dwarves. Replace B with floodgate and fill the central stair with fun.
Post by: Hotawotwot on April 13, 2014, 10:27:35 pm
Post by: kingu on April 14, 2014, 03:54:54 am
If a race it to be a real choice to play over dwarfs they will need to be better at certain aspects. not just "dwarf fortress with handicap". Perhaps a focus on better building above ground would make humans the choice for aove ground megaproject players?
I play kobolds now but only for the added challenge. It really just feels like a way to make the game harder since they dont reallt have any advantages. Just like a "hard" setting
Post by: danmanthedog on April 14, 2014, 05:56:55 pm
Post by: kamikazi1231 on April 14, 2014, 05:59:31 pm
A civ-exclusive siege cannon would probably be nice.
I agree about siege engines. The humans could be a good opportunity to expand the already added custom siege engines, refine them, and add others. I'm personally thinking slow firing net launcher that on impact stuns, knocks down, and possibly spawns a web. I guess I just picture humans as above ground cities with walls, so a siege engine like that might be useful with their wall defenses.
Post by: Arcvasti on April 14, 2014, 06:47:50 pm
I play kobolds now but only for the added challenge. It really just feels like a way to make the game harder since they dont reallt have any advantages. Just like a "hard" setting
Personally, I find kobolds EASIER then dwarves. They can't tantrum, don't need to hit stone to be relevant, have absurd food surplusses because jack rats breed so much , don't need alchohol and have relatively easy access to iron-grade armour and weapons without even using a thieves tunnel. Their only real disadvantage is their size, and they have ways of mitigating that. It seems more like easy mode to me and I've played kobolds a lot. I've only stopped playing them because Warlocks.
Back on topic, Humans should be natural farmers and masons and carpenters. Those are the main areas I would think humans would be better at. Plus they're larger then dwarves, so they'll be better in combat, so no steel seems fair[Maybe until you unlock a certain dwarven workshop?]. I love the idea of a trade-based tech tree[It would fit right in]. Being really good at cooking would fit too. I think it might be neat if there was a workshop[Accounting Offices?], which unlocked certain DFhack-enabled managerial benefits[Not quite sure what, but there probably some possible ones] if you can meet its randomized "mandates". That sounds like it would be possible, in theory.
FAKEEDIT: Siege engines sound really nice and themetic too. I'm in favour of those.
Post by: danmanthedog on April 14, 2014, 09:10:34 pm
Post by: Arcvasti on April 14, 2014, 09:41:36 pm
Okay I agree on no steel armor and siege engines too but what about weapons now?
Maybe the normal people should have a small penalty to anything which isn't a spear or a pike? While the knights and squires are better with swords and maces. They should also have some way to get a bunch of cheap weapons quickly in case of emergency conscription. My suggestion is have a workshop that creates a bunch of copper-grade pitchforks and gives all nearby workers a combat buff, but have the pitchforks dissolve after a while [Sort of like the Ethereal Forge weapons do with Warlocks] and have it run the siren script. It stops parties and breaks, gives basic weaponry and rallies the peasants. Great for when your pathetic 3 Knight militia got killed by a goblin ambush and you need to DRAFT EVERYBODY BEFORE WE ALL DIE! But the "troubled by lack of adequate protection" and "complained about the draft" thoughts mean that the peasants will be unhappy about it. Also, some way to have the workshop deconstruct once its used[Some workshops which AREN'T supposed to do it deconstruct after use, so its possible] and maybe have a limit of only using its effect once every 3 months or something.[Not sure if this is possible] Maybe make the workshop tedious to re build once its deconstructed itself? The pitchforks would need to be valueless and not be usable in reactions.
^This sounds like a cool idea which I think would work with humans. If it doesn't fit, it might also be suited for kobolds.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 14, 2014, 09:43:19 pm
Humans should be natural farmers and masons and carpenters.Masons I don't think so. Humans should not be better manson than dwarves.
If humans need cheap building materials, I think bricks and concrete blocks are better.
Carpenters Yes. Usually humans don't make chairs from stone, tables maybe, bins unthinkable, cabinets sometimes from bricks. So there should be a lot of work for carpenters.
In addition, humans should be good potters. Humans can make porcelain pots and jugs which are as light as woodwork and do not cost too much fuel in the process.
Humans don't smooth and engrave stone floors. They build high value floors with wooden boards and porcelain mosaics, usually above ground.
Humans should make concrete blocks from stones, not slags.
I think humans should be more like humans, not just "dwarves in easy mode". Sticking in wooden furniture makes it a little harder to maintain a good relationship with elves. Porcelain definitely needs more steps than stonework. But that's more realistic, and more fun.
Post by: LMeire on April 15, 2014, 02:13:32 am
Post by: danmanthedog on April 15, 2014, 08:40:23 am
Yeah that militia building sounds like a good idea, Also since the humans in dwarf fortress are MediterraneanOkay I agree on no steel armor and siege engines too but what about weapons now?
Maybe the normal people should have a small penalty to anything which isn't a spear or a pike? While the knights and squires are better with swords and maces. They should also have some way to get a bunch of cheap weapons quickly in case of emergency conscription. My suggestion is have a workshop that creates a bunch of copper-grade pitchforks and gives all nearby workers a combat buff, but have the pitchforks dissolve after a while [Sort of like the Ethereal Forge weapons do with Warlocks] and have it run the siren script. It stops parties and breaks, gives basic weaponry and rallies the peasants. Great for when your pathetic 3 Knight militia got killed by a goblin ambush and you need to DRAFT EVERYBODY BEFORE WE ALL DIE! But the "troubled by lack of adequate protection" and "complained about the draft" thoughts mean that the peasants will be unhappy about it. Also, some way to have the workshop deconstruct once its used[Some workshops which AREN'T supposed to do it deconstruct after use, so its possible] and maybe have a limit of only using its effect once every 3 months or something.[Not sure if this is possible] Maybe make the workshop tedious to re build once its deconstructed itself? The pitchforks would need to be valueless and not be usable in reactions.
^This sounds like a cool idea which I think would work with humans. If it doesn't fit, it might also be suited for kobolds.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Meph on April 15, 2014, 08:55:42 am
Here is an idea from me:
Make a basic human template. A civ with traders and guilds, and copy it 5 times.
Asian (japanese/chinese) with katanas, kimonos, sake, dojos, martial arts, and japanese language file. Nobles called shogun and daymio etc. Their kidnappers and thieves could be called ninjas.
Western (britons/french) with halberds and longbows, steel, muskets and cannons. Nobles named king and dukes etc.
Southerners (greek/roman empire) with gladius and legionnaires. Togas and sandals. Latin language files. Nobles are ceasar and praefects and the senate.
Arabs (ottoman/persian) with kaftans, turbans and scimitars. Mass mud brick manufacturing, great doctors. Nobles called Sultan and grand vezir.
Amerindian (atztek/maya/inca) with bows and spears and macautlis. Shamanism and blood magic (human sacrifices and all that) and nobles called high priest and god king.
Other options: African tribes. Germanic/barbarians. Vikings. Mongolian hordes. Egyptians.
The basic idea: The human race is the same, but the weapons, graphics and noble names change, and each different culture gets 2-5 unique workshops. Its not that much extra work, and with the gui you can mix them up as you like.
Play as Westerners with early Amerindian Invaders, buy your steel from the Roman Legion to defend agains late Arabic invaders while you get visits by japanese ninjas (lvl15 thieves, like kobolds but more dangerous)
Or just enable one of them, the one you like most.
It would be a neat community project as well, because smaller parts can be done by different people. If you have good historical knowledge or always wanted to do 1-2 things for a specific mod like vikings or japanese, that would be the perfect oppurtunity. Once I finish the basic workshops that they would all share, it would be simple to split them into different cultures by a few small additions.
Post by: danmanthedog on April 15, 2014, 09:48:27 am
Edit- I might be able to mod in obsidian weapons for them.
Post by: Hotawotwot on April 15, 2014, 10:44:04 am
Post by: Hugo_The_Dwarf on April 15, 2014, 11:37:53 am
Workshops (rugs/paintings) dont increase room value, only furniture does that.
Here is an idea from me:
Make a basic human template. A civ with traders and guilds, and copy it 5 times.
Asian (japanese/chinese) with katanas, kimonos, sake, dojos, martial arts, and japanese language file. Nobles called shogun and daymio etc. Their kidnappers and thieves could be called ninjas.
Western (britons/french) with halberds and longbows, steel, muskets and cannons. Nobles named king and dukes etc.
Southerners (greek/roman empire) with gladius and legionnaires. Togas and sandals. Latin language files. Nobles are ceasar and praefects and the senate.
Arabs (ottoman/persian) with kaftans, turbans and scimitars. Mass mud brick manufacturing, great doctors. Nobles called Sultan and grand vezir.
Amerindian (atztek/maya/inca) with bows and spears and macautlis. Shamanism and blood magic (human sacrifices and all that) and nobles called high priest and god king.
Other options: African tribes. Germanic/barbarians. Vikings. Mongolian hordes. Egyptians.
The basic idea: The human race is the same, but the weapons, graphics and noble names change, and each different culture gets 2-5 unique workshops. Its not that much extra work, and with the gui you can mix them up as you like.
Play as Westerners with early Amerindian Invaders, buy your steel from the Roman Legion to defend agains late Arabic invaders while you get visits by japanese ninjas (lvl15 thieves, like kobolds but more dangerous)
Or just enable one of them, the one you like most.
It would be a neat community project as well, because smaller parts can be done by different people. If you have good historical knowledge or always wanted to do 1-2 things for a specific mod like vikings or japanese, that would be the perfect oppurtunity. Once I finish the basic workshops that they would all share, it would be simple to split them into different cultures by a few small additions.
but what about graphics for each? and custom castes etc. As each race should have bonuses, My suggestion is this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This just holds all the materials as all humans have the same well materials.
then create a custom human creature for each ASIAN, WESTERN, GERMANIC, ROMAN, PERSIAN. This allows you to use custom sprites, castes, descriptive features, etc. but keep the clutter of materials down, like "this is a splattering of asian blood, and a pool of western blood" it'd just be all "human blood" less of course it's a named creature, but that's not a new material just a named material.
you probably meant this by the comment:
Quote
The basic idea: The human race is the same, but the weapons, graphics and noble names change, and each different culture gets 2-5 unique workshops. Its not that much extra work, and with the gui you can mix them up as you like.
why not allow them all at once? and just let the GUI disable/enable the playable feature?
and since custom entities can easily make sure that there are enough places for all races (humans, bolds, elves, FD races)
Post by: Avacado on April 15, 2014, 01:11:33 pm
Another potential idea is to make various reactions that take in raw materials like lumber, boulders, (nails?), etc, and produces a number of "bricks" of a high value construction type.
IE: 5 lumber + Iron Nails (tool) produces 25 "Crossbeam" bricks, which then would show as Crossbeam walls or floors (or roads or bridges I guess).
It would be a neat community project as well, because smaller parts can be done by different people. If you have good historical knowledge or always wanted to do 1-2 things for a specific mod like vikings or japanese, that would be the perfect oppurtunity. Once I finish the basic workshops that they would all share, it would be simple to split them into different cultures by a few small additions.
I would personally love to mod a scandinavian variation of the base human template.
Post by: Meph on April 15, 2014, 02:32:57 pm
Post by: Hugo_The_Dwarf on April 15, 2014, 03:06:06 pm
Spoiler: Human Template for materials (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Human Creature Template (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: human tissue templates (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Human BDP (click to show/hide)
EDIT:
If any tags are missing that you desire for your "template" add them in. Save it, then start copying and pasting this for your indiv Human types.
Post by: Meph on April 15, 2014, 03:10:43 pm
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 15, 2014, 03:17:01 pm
Seems to me that it would be more reasonable to make humans simply be a highly adaptable race. Give them a lot of different options from many real-world cultures, but let the player mix them up as they so choose. Alternatively, give them many functionally similar but differently named variants of clothing, armor and weapon types, but don't make any of them forced... let the game determine which mix you wind up with, so each time you play your civ has a different cultural 'flavor' (or mix of flavors).
Post by: Hugo_The_Dwarf on April 15, 2014, 03:21:58 pm
But why should I link all of them to this template, if I can copy the normal human, keep the name and just change the ID? Shorter raws?
Linking to the material template "HUMAN" will reduce the number of "Human materials in stocks and such" and in game (FPS)
The creature human template uses all the templates to attach all the things that are similar
So all you need to do is copy that Human template change the _XXX to your custom ID "HUMAN_ROMAN" and rename the castes and such so you can get in your worldgen:
"The Roman hamlet of sadfghxsdgf" and things like "urist like Romans for their lust of booze and gluttony"
You might have to PM me what you really meant.
Post by: Meph on April 15, 2014, 03:47:44 pm
About the procedual thing: There are people writing viking and japanese human mods as we speak, and the people here are already discussing if the vanilla df humans are western or rather greek/mediterrean.
The strong point of MDF has always been the GUI. I would make the rather generic western medieval humans the default, and players can add other rl civs if they like. That way you do have the option. I will put this to a vote at some point, and maybe make a thread in the modding section to see if anyone wants to do a specific type. Otherwise I just start with the western humans and wait to see the communities feedback.
Post by: danmanthedog on April 15, 2014, 04:10:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LMeire on April 15, 2014, 05:55:18 pm
Post by: danmanthedog on April 15, 2014, 07:52:40 pm
Military idea: Make military captains (and commanders) into moderately demanding nobles that refuse to work, simulating the old-world arrangement of peasantry supporting land-owners with labor and land-owners supporting the royal family with their martial prowess. It would make the squad-size decision based on a player's ability to provide luxuries for their nobles, rather than just hard-coded training quirks.That sounds good but that will be more on the Europe side of things, well western would be like you can be a noble if you are a priest or high military already.
He is a rough draft of the Sword/club for aztecs. It's first weapon I made so yeah, I need to now how to make it obsidian only weapon and what values should I put for it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LMeire on April 15, 2014, 09:31:50 pm
Military idea: Make military captains (and commanders) into moderately demanding nobles that refuse to work, simulating the old-world arrangement of peasantry supporting land-owners with labor and land-owners supporting the royal family with their martial prowess. It would make the squad-size decision based on a player's ability to provide luxuries for their nobles, rather than just hard-coded training quirks.That sounds good but that will be more on the Europe side of things, well western would be like you can be a noble if you are a priest or high military already.
...
I'm not sure what you mean by "more on the Europe side", the Japanese had samurai clans, the Aztecs had the 'Jaguar' and 'Eagle' warrior societies, lots of empires just left everything up to nepotism.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 15, 2014, 09:53:12 pm
Doesn't making multiple possible civs based on real world cultures defeat the purpose of a 'procedurally generated fantasy world'?Seconded.
Meph & Hugo, while you are digging into the deep technical details of multicultural human races, I request an option of "Simple human" in the GUI to disable it, please.
Post by: Propman on April 15, 2014, 10:17:35 pm
Edit: Of course, the hardest bit would be designing a sprite sheet that is sufficiently generic. Or better yet, so detached from anything one would see in real life that one couldn't immediately pin them to a specific culture.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 15, 2014, 10:55:28 pm
1. Dwarf players will get several caravans in summer. They kill FPS and don't bring many unique useful goods. Even worse, they may be at war. By carefully (not too much) design you can avoid human and elven caravans to meet. But 5 human races, what the hell?
2. You prefer human to be the choice of starter players. But They will confuse at so many start choices. And they will keep trying different humans before they go to dwarves/orcs/cobolds. It will be long enough to lose patience and put MDF away.
3. Before you have designed goblin and elf, maybe also drow and antmen, it's hard to design multiple human races. It will be either too different, that some humans are more like dwarves and some are more like elves thus no human feel, or too same, that the differences are only renaming some weapons, skills and castes, thus not different feelings.
4. It does not fit in the game's world. While a race can found many civs, it's hard to say humans have divided into many RACES, before worldgen. Their difference should not equal that of elf and drow. We don't have humans living in the tree or living underground, and reproductive isolated over many generations.
Post by: Avacado on April 15, 2014, 11:18:10 pm
Post by: Propman on April 15, 2014, 11:33:59 pm
4. It does not fit in the game's world. While a race can found many civs, it's hard to say humans have divided into many RACES, before worldgen. Their difference should not equal that of elf and drow. We don't have humans living in the tree or living underground, and reproductive isolated over many generations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong
Humans can easily variate in ways as extreme as the elves can (evidently, someone tell Toady to allow civs to have size variations; dwarf-sized humans/human-sized dwarves would be a boon to trade with!) That being said, could one possibly limit caravan access to one human civ a year (the particular civ set through some trade interaction) using DF Hack trickery? Since six human caravans at once is rather large, though one would assume each caravan would bring culture-specific weapons and other items.
If everything were ideal, and we were at v 0.64 instead of 0.34, humans (and elves, and the GDA) likely wouldn't have to be split into separate races, but the current solution seems to be a reasonable stopgap for the time being.
Post by: lcy03406 on April 15, 2014, 11:41:14 pm
You can set all races to good and get a bunch of caravans too. I fail to see why this is a problem. Nothing says that the various human variations have to match perfectly when it comes to trade either.So will you set some of humans to evil, or tolerant a bunch of caravans? Will you prefer all them come at summer, or come one after another and whole year along?
It's not a big problem, but what's the benefit to do so? You want to buy some large kimonos? You want to equip your army with katanas and scimitars on half and half?
While we have "Simple XXX" options to wipe out unnecessary vanilla objects for higher FPS and neater UI, I don't understand why we should throw 5 times of such things in.
Post by: Meph on April 16, 2014, 06:51:01 am
One generic/medieval human race on by default. The others are disabled and people that like these cultures can add them and play as or with them.
None of the points you list as cons are a problem, because the default mod settings would have one human race with steel, knights and muskets, just like they have now. Only people that like multiple caravans or a specific type can enable this.
Renaming nobles, replacing sprites and language file and adding 2-3 unique workshops will take one day per race, not more. As I said, its not a lot of work. If I could do this procedually in one entity file, I would. But as it stands you would get a wild mix of everything. Steel paladin helmets and leather loincloths on ninjas that wield scimitars.
PS: 90% of the items, graphics and language files exist already, either in mdf or other minor mods in the forum. Its only a matter of putting them together.
Post by: Meph on April 16, 2014, 06:56:20 am
44% pantheon/procedual.
30% rl christians
15% no religion features
11% as meph wants to do (for now: none)
Looks like everyone wants something else, as always ;) 44% for pantheon, 30% for "god" and 26% for no religion ( besides the worshipping in the unit description)
I added a new poll, about the RL civ idea.
Post by: IndigoFenix on April 16, 2014, 11:16:21 am
Post by: Hugo_The_Dwarf on April 16, 2014, 12:01:33 pm
Post by: Meph on April 16, 2014, 01:17:32 pm
Post by: LMeire on April 16, 2014, 05:47:13 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on April 16, 2014, 09:21:11 pm
I feel like you have been ignoring this part:I'm happy with that. I always play in the default settings so it's OK.
One generic/medieval human race on by default. The others are disabled and people that like these cultures can add them and play as or with them.
None of the points you list as cons are a problem, because the default mod settings would have one human race with steel, knights and muskets, just like they have now. Only people that like multiple caravans or a specific type can enable this.
And you will disable all the additional items by default so I won't have a dwarf who wish to consume sake, and I won't have to scroll a long list to find superior zweihanders?
Apologize for my nervousness, adding 5 or 6 races is a big thing as I understood.
Post by: blapnk on April 16, 2014, 10:35:53 pm
Post by: Meph on April 18, 2014, 05:32:46 am
The major points for No are:
- Not procedually generated (unfortunately modders cant do that, only Toady can)
- Too many civs at a time (can be toggled in the GUI, only one active by default)
- Feature Creep (True. They would share the same basic features among all human civs)
- Too much work (I estimate one extra day to give civ-specific features, so 5-7 days of modding)
I think it would be a good idea to open a new thread in the general modding area and invite people to post ideas for different civs. I would update the first post with a list and the features that could be added for each. The thread here would continue about the "default mdf humans" the western knights, muskets and trader/guild idea, which has been discussed so far. :) This would be the race thats active by default and gets the biggest attention in terms of features and balancing.
Post by: LMeire on April 18, 2014, 10:01:24 am
Actually, is it possible to have only certain castes of a race lay eggs? (Or to have males lay "eggs", for that matter?) 'Cause I just thought that the whole "humans-occasionally-having-other-races-as-kids" thing could be explained away with adultery or maybe the idea that in MWDF, humans themselves are a thorough mix of all the other races combined. ("An orc baby? Why you must take after your great-great-maternal grandfather! Let's name you after him.")
Post by: danmanthedog on April 18, 2014, 10:06:54 am
Post by: moseythepirate on April 18, 2014, 12:09:24 pm
Post by: MDFification on April 18, 2014, 12:51:48 pm
Post by: Meph on April 18, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
I plan to only do 2-3 civ specific workshops each, which comes easy to me by now. Nothing complex. The rest is just the creature and entity. Two files and a few buildings are not a lot of work. It should give a basis for other modders that can add many more smaller parts if they want to.
I am unsure about the guilds. Western-only, or part of the basis for all? (guilds in atztecs or vikings makes no sense...)
Slavery I would suggest as main feature for either Goblins or Drow, not humans.
Egg laying cross species pet-orcs/goblins/elves: Ehm... No. Being able to call all caravans, building race specific workshops and maybe spawning the odd off-race civilian to hang around has to be enough.
EDIT: Made that topic in the general modding section, lets see if others people want to chime in or not.
Post by: omniclasm on April 19, 2014, 06:16:45 am
However, I was thinking more along the lines that the playable civ would just be medieval European, and the others would be an extra option for world gen, like Drow currently are. I think if you're going to make different cultures, they should be thoroughly different rather than just having a workshop that makes katanas instead of broad swords.
Post by: Hugo_The_Dwarf on April 19, 2014, 05:06:04 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on April 20, 2014, 01:21:15 pm
I am unsure about the guilds. Western-only, or part of the basis for all? (guilds in atztecs or vikings makes no sense...)
I would argue that whenever there is a civilization, skilled craftsmen would band together. Guilds by any other name and all that. Also, it would be a pain in the bum to try to balance having a key feature that only some cultures have.
Post by: LMeire on April 20, 2014, 03:39:35 pm
Plus, I'm pretty sure Scandinavia had tradeguilds, even if they aren't as famous for it as England and France.
Post by: MDFification on April 20, 2014, 04:51:43 pm
I am unsure about the guilds. Western-only, or part of the basis for all? (guilds in atztecs or vikings makes no sense...)
I would argue that whenever there is a civilization, skilled craftsmen would band together. Guilds by any other name and all that. Also, it would be a pain in the bum to try to balance having a key feature that only some cultures have.
There were guild-like organizations in India and East Asia, historically. Essentially, any organized, urban society can develop a guild-like structure given enough time.
I mean historically guilds were just another racket. You get some craftsmen together, and they beat up anyone who'd threaten their business and construct a monopoly.
Post by: Stiefel on April 20, 2014, 06:54:46 pm
While thinking about human ideas myself, I personally enjoyed this direction just to add ideas to the discussion.I also got the idea of a human crusader-civilization type idea, except they would model actual medieval crusader states like Kingdom of Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. Humans already have crusader helms, so why not? Plus, with the tech apparently being somewhere around the 15th century, we could easily imagine them with roughly the same battle tactics and weaponry as the Knights of St. John. I'd really like a monotheistic and hyper-religious theocratic civilization for a change.
A very imperialistic group devoted to purging the land of the unclean for the greater will of god. A huge focus on a christianity like religion, but with an even more extreme devotion to it, fantasy style, almost similar to some of such religions among humans in Warhammer. Human branding of religious runes, clergy, devotion above all else. I pictured a 19th century russian appearance/weaponry, great coats, ushankas, huge bardiches/melee weaponry and muskets/gunpowder weaponry. Huge focus on masonry and carpentry, mining allowed, but less or no living underground, lack of sun = depression. I pictured possibly similarities to Khador of Warmachine. Also of course, vodka. You could also take all of this and mix it with a germanic steel knight reiksguard type of deal.
But please don't throw in ninjas and samurai and all that crap. Maybe some Asia-inspired tech like repeating crossbows and primitive rocket launchers, but any further would be just too out of place in my opinion.
Post by: Meph on April 21, 2014, 04:58:57 am
In the general modding thread someone even suggested doing Japanese, Chinese, Mongolians, Indians and Polynesians seperately. 5 civs, all Asia.
Post by: Traece on April 21, 2014, 07:05:37 am
Take Feudal Japan and Medieval Europe for example. Both are differentiated by location and culture. Beyond that they use swords, spears, farm and keep animals, and build above-ground structures. They're also both noble-based societies. They're basically vanilla humans, except Japan would have katanas and buildings made of wood, bamboo, and paper. The same goes for the Middle East in that time period, which doesn't differ much. Vikings are a bit more unique, and the trade republics of the Mediterranean Sea are the most unique of the lot.
You could go through the trouble of statting out all those different weapon/armor/building material assets for a bunch of roughly identical medieval-period (ballparking here) civilizations, or you could go with something a bit more fantasy.
Why not a magic-based human race, and a normal medieval-style human race? We have Warlocks, so why not a race of human Archmages that summon golems and elementals, living in towers made of marble by their various constructs? Or perhaps the archmages just use the golems and elementals for defense, and count on their townsmen to do all the work? It could even employ a command structure that's not noble-based, such as some sort of ruling council.
In short, you could maintain a normal vanilla-style medieval human race, and then create a fantasy-based melding of the Warlocks and said vanilla humans.
Post by: Delta_02_Cat on April 21, 2014, 07:10:30 am
Post by: Vabalokis on April 21, 2014, 07:23:18 am
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 09:04:32 am
Stiefel, why are middle-eastern crusaders fine and samurais are not? Both are highly specialised things from a specific time and place... 14th century earth had both. Robots or Neandertals would be out of place, but why Asians?I wouldn't mind a separate Asian civ, but I think it would be out of place for samurai to be fighting alongside knights for example. I just don't know how you're going to do that unless you're going to make separate raws for separate civilizations, which would require making them entirely separate races to my knowledge.
In the general modding thread someone even suggested doing Japanese, Chinese, Mongolians, Indians and Polynesians seperately. 5 civs, all Asia.
Also, media with fantasy settings tend to have a fairly Eurocentric representation of human civs. Not that I'm against Asian civs being in the game alongside European ones, but I just think a lot of people would be uncomfortable without some European-esque human civ.
Post by: Gamerlord on April 21, 2014, 09:18:42 am
Just a thought on how playing them feels/would feel.
Dwarves- Colonial Britain. Seriously.
Elves- Sorta Celtic but also a bit like Natives from Oceania.
Goblins- Their slavemaking and the colosseum they unlock in kobold mode (Is that still a thing?) makes them kinda Romanish - as in the Romans at their worst and most depraved.
Drow- No idea.
Orcs- The Orient, Japan, Mesoamerica
Warlocks- France, Germany, etc.
Gnomes- Sweden obviously.
Kobolds- They seem very 'tribal African' to me.
Frost Giants- Not enough info.
And that leaves humans. I reckon maybe a basic medieval, Viking or maybe even a Mongol setup. Maybe all three.
If you want samurai try out Orc mode. They do a pretty good 'honour' thing.Stiefel, why are middle-eastern crusaders fine and samurais are not? Both are highly specialised things from a specific time and place... 14th century earth had both. Robots or Neandertals would be out of place, but why Asians?I wouldn't mind a separate Asian civ, but I think it would be out of place for samurai to be fighting alongside knights for example. I just don't know how you're going to do that unless you're going to make separate raws for separate civilizations, which would require making them entirely separate races to my knowledge.
In the general modding thread someone even suggested doing Japanese, Chinese, Mongolians, Indians and Polynesians seperately. 5 civs, all Asia.
Also, media with fantasy settings tend to have a fairly Eurocentric representation of human civs. Not that I'm against Asian civs being in the game alongside European ones, but I just think a lot of people would be uncomfortable without some European-esque human civ.
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 09:50:16 am
If you want samurai try out Orc mode. They do a pretty good 'honour' thing.They do have the whole bushido thing down pretty well, but Japanese culture is also known for quality craftsmanship whereas orc craftsmanship is quite frankly shit.
I think the violet/silver xelics from the Civ Forge mod would make a great Japan-inspired civ. Two arms on each side makes for dual-wielding katanas and the exoskeleton makes fairly decent armor. Really deadly.
Post by: Gamerlord on April 21, 2014, 09:51:39 am
The orcs have the Damascene Forge as well as the Ancient Forge. They can make sone elegant stuff.If you want samurai try out Orc mode. They do a pretty good 'honour' thing.They do have the whole bushido thing down pretty well, but Japanese culture is also known for quality craftsmanship whereas orc craftsmanship is quite frankly shit.
I think the violet/silver xelics from the Civ Forge mod would make a great Japan-inspired civ. Two arms on each side makes for dual-wielding katanas and the exoskeleton makes fairly decent armor. Really deadly.
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 09:56:59 am
The orcs have the Damascene Forge as well as the Ancient Forge. They can make sone elegant stuff.They can make some good-looking stuff, yet what they mass-produce is patchwork rusty steel armor. Japanese armies were usually fairly small (as was the case in most feudal societies) with quality gear (even the peasant and vassal soldiers looked fairly decent). Orcs in most fantasy settings tend to be about quantity over quality. Of course the elite soldiers are going to have some nice equipment, but the average soldier is going to be covered in old sheet metal.
Post by: Gamerlord on April 21, 2014, 10:08:51 am
Also, who would I give the patchwork armour to? The Uruk Elite? The Olog Linebreakers? My Snaga snipers? Or maybe my rank and file normal orcs, of whom one death could cripple the entire fortress?
Post by: Gamerlord on April 21, 2014, 10:13:14 am
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 10:24:20 am
Actually I always take the time to kit out my fighters well in orc mode. Cos usually if they die tantrum spirals follow. Plus I set them up into little clans AND GOD DAMN I WAS GONNA GET A SELF SUSTAINING POPULATION FOR A FEW CLANS BUT SIEGES. Seriously. Fuck that.I mean the AI gives their soldiers patchwork armor. I've never had too much trouble with tantrum spirals in my Dwarf forts concerning military deaths, but that's probably just because I tend to keep military dwarfs isolated from the general population in a barracks just inside the fortress walls. The reason I like to deck out my fighters is so they gain experience instead of get chopped to pieces. Full coffins are more of a liability to your military than an asset, are they not? Especially if a necromancer happened to walk by...
Also, who would I give the patchwork armour to? The Uruk Elite? The Olog Linebreakers? My Snaga snipers? Or maybe my rank and file normal orcs, of whom one death could cripple the entire fortress?
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 11:03:46 am
Ah! Romans! It would be pretty neat to have Roman legions with lorica segmentata and gladii running around conquering everything for their emperor. I'd really like to see Dwarf Fortress simulate the heavy infantry doctrine of the Romans fighting against the heavy cavalry doctrine of the Franks.
Post by: LMeire on April 21, 2014, 03:28:32 pm
Post by: Stiefel on April 21, 2014, 07:07:19 pm
Can buildings be restricted to specific biomes? If they can, then why not restrict "culture buildings" to certain biomes and there won't be any weird mixes. Aztecs could have jungles, Vikings could have tundras, Greco-Romans could have Savannas, Egypt-Persia-Arabs could have deserts, Westerns could have forests and Indo-China-Japan could have mountains; humans stay as one race (and thus avoid unfortunate implications) and Vikings almost never show up with centurion platemail.I actually think it would be funny for the Vikings to commit ethnic cleansing against all the other human races. Your idea would probably require different entity and creature files to begin with to deal with the different sets of equipment, biomes, and phenotypes. How about you, i don't know, maybe not let the first thoughts that come to your mind be white supremacist ideas? You could have all of them be equal where intrinsic stats are involved, with all the other differences being either cultural or just having to do with skin color.
Post by: moseythepirate on April 21, 2014, 11:10:45 pm
...Can buildings be restricted to specific biomes? If they can, then why not restrict "culture buildings" to certain biomes and there won't be any weird mixes. Aztecs could have jungles, Vikings could have tundras, Greco-Romans could have Savannas, Egypt-Persia-Arabs could have deserts, Westerns could have forests and Indo-China-Japan could have mountains; humans stay as one race (and thus avoid unfortunate implications) and Vikings almost never show up with centurion platemail.I actually think it would be funny for the Vikings to commit ethnic cleansing against all the other human races. Your idea would probably require different entity and creature files to begin with to deal with the different sets of equipment, biomes, and phenotypes. How about you, i don't know, maybe not let the first thoughts that come to your mind be white supremacist ideas? You could have all of them be equal where intrinsic stats are involved, with all the other differences being either cultural or just having to do with skin color.
Um...what?
Is it just me, or did this topic get weird on me?
While I don't want to start putting words in another human's mouth, I don't think he was talking about the humans being one race in terms of...you know...skin color. I think he just meant not having to split humans into different civs that would need to be manually selected on or off at the launcher, so as to simplify things for the player. Let's all just cool our jets a little bit.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 21, 2014, 11:34:53 pm
Can buildings be restricted to specific biomes? If they can, then why not restrict "culture buildings" to certain biomes and there won't be any weird mixes. Aztecs could have jungles, Vikings could have tundras, Greco-Romans could have Savannas, Egypt-Persia-Arabs could have deserts, Westerns could have forests and Indo-China-Japan could have mountains; humans stay as one race (and thus avoid unfortunate implications) and Vikings almost never show up with centurion platemail.
You can't limit workshops by biome, just as you can't restrict a workshop to above or below ground, or make it require power. At least, not in vanilla. I don't know enough about how DFHack works to be able to say anything about that.
Regardless, even if it were added in, it would likely not be respected in world-gen, so different regions would end up with items from a different culture. That's assuming that the reactions are even utilized in world-gen.
Though I could be wrong.
Post by: Gamerlord on April 22, 2014, 12:59:52 am
*hits Stiefel*Can buildings be restricted to specific biomes? If they can, then why not restrict "culture buildings" to certain biomes and there won't be any weird mixes. Aztecs could have jungles, Vikings could have tundras, Greco-Romans could have Savannas, Egypt-Persia-Arabs could have deserts, Westerns could have forests and Indo-China-Japan could have mountains; humans stay as one race (and thus avoid unfortunate implications) and Vikings almost never show up with centurion platemail.I actually think it would be funny for the Vikings to commit ethnic cleansing against all the other human races. Your idea would probably require different entity and creature files to begin with to deal with the different sets of equipment, biomes, and phenotypes. How about you, i don't know, maybe not let the first thoughts that come to your mind be white supremacist ideas? You could have all of them be equal where intrinsic stats are involved, with all the other differences being either cultural or just having to do with skin color.
No. Bad Stiefel.
Post by: LMeire on April 22, 2014, 03:32:06 am
Can buildings be restricted to specific biomes? If they can, then why not restrict "culture buildings" to certain biomes and there won't be any weird mixes. Aztecs could have jungles, Vikings could have tundras, Greco-Romans could have Savannas, Egypt-Persia-Arabs could have deserts, Westerns could have forests and Indo-China-Japan could have mountains; humans stay as one race (and thus avoid unfortunate implications) and Vikings almost never show up with centurion platemail.I actually think it would be funny for the Vikings to commit ethnic cleansing against all the other human races. Your idea would probably require different entity and creature files to begin with to deal with the different sets of equipment, biomes, and phenotypes. How about you, i don't know, maybe not let the first thoughts that come to your mind be white supremacist ideas? You could have all of them be equal where intrinsic stats are involved, with all the other differences being either cultural or just having to do with skin color.
Dude. Like, what? I cannot even begin to refute your argument, 'cause I'm not sure how you got from "multiple cultures within a civ" to "only Vikings, all else must die". Like seriously, reread or rephrase or something.
Post by: Meph on April 23, 2014, 10:23:32 am
I really like the idea of biome-based workshops, but only if someone writes fancy dfhack scripts for that. It will also be weird when you embark on 2-4 biomes on one map.
Archmages and other fantasy stuff: No. The idea behind this is that multiple human civs are a small amount of work. Writing sone magical race is a lot of work... I would do that for elves, drow or goblins.
Post by: moseythepirate on May 04, 2014, 08:08:04 pm
Post by: Meph on May 05, 2014, 01:47:26 am
(Salamanca, Spain by now, have about 3000km more to go.)
Post by: migshark on May 05, 2014, 10:00:25 pm
Post by: Meph on May 06, 2014, 04:40:02 am
In short: It would result in a wild mix.
Post by: Gamerlord on May 06, 2014, 05:02:09 am
Post by: Meph on May 06, 2014, 08:12:47 am
Post by: LMeire on May 19, 2014, 12:06:24 pm
Additional, culturally-linked reactions could include things like sherbet (IRL an invention by the Chinese), marshmallows (Egypt), chocolate (Aztec), calisson (medieval Italy), and pastila (Russia).
Another building: Gourmet Kitchen. Works like a vanilla kitchen, but instead of stacking ingredients into prepared meals, it just makes them into courses- bigger ingredients. Then the courses can be stacked at a kitchen to create meals with as many as 16 different types of food with a little stockpile management. Should be late-game to avoid OPness, maybe by requiring a certain amount of gold coins to construct?
Post by: Meph on May 19, 2014, 02:26:53 pm
Real meals, as in "prepared meals" I cant do, they are hardcoded. All these fancy candy, bread and other food stuff will either be categorized as meat or cheese. Same issue, I cant invent new item types. -.-
Post by: LMeire on May 19, 2014, 05:30:31 pm
Shame about the meals, but advanced foodstuffs would still make a decent humany tradegood, IMO.
While I'm thinking about it I've got another one:
Feast Hall: A large, town-center type building with functions similar to the dwarven Tavern. But instead of requiring an instrument, all reactions require various meats, cheeses, and drinks. Simple reactions like would just take a raw meat and a barrel of drinks, and reactions would get more powerful and longer lasting as culinary mastery went on. Things like "Celebrate the Winter Solstice" would take drinks, candies, and smoked meat and could provide economic benefits like temporary [NO EAT] that would come in handy for a hard winter.
Post by: Meph on May 19, 2014, 07:35:00 pm
Post by: LMeire on May 20, 2014, 10:38:24 am
Would it be possible to make it so that only humans saw advanced food as worth the price? Then a dwarf trader could look at a wheel of "Chef's Guild Approved Artisan Pepperjack Cheese" or whatever and decide that it's worth about the same as any of the generic cheeses from any "Grandmaster Cheesemaker" in any mediocre food-production-fort, while traders from the human capital are stumbling over themselves to be the ones that offer the delicacy to His Majesty. Same with orcs or kobolds, they'd be all like "Why would 'smoked-meat' be special? All meat is smoked if it dies in a fire!"
That would at least limit the ability of humans to cheaply acquire war-machines, magic, and warbeasts.
Post by: Meph on May 20, 2014, 11:41:22 am
With custom trading in workshops yes, but not with caravans.
Post by: IndigoFenix on May 21, 2014, 02:53:36 am
Just keep stacks in mind. Value of the prepared meals with such ingredients might go into the millions... and the reactions would always use up stacks of this food.
If you make them out of a custom material that is EDIBLE_RAW but not EDIBLE_COOKED, you can prevent them from being used in prepared meals.
Post by: Meph on May 21, 2014, 06:36:46 am
Post by: LMeire on May 22, 2014, 04:02:21 pm
Maybe somehow scale the chances of successful reactions by the size of the animal sacrificed? Both to keep players from spamming bunny-death to spare their cows and to simulate how pleased Armok/local spirits are by the offering of a potential war-beast like an elephant.
Post by: Podesta on May 27, 2014, 05:53:00 am
As for the race discussion, maybe an idea would be to include all of them on the same game, but all the specific workshops would be dependent on a first 'guild'/build that you would essentially choose which civilization you want to be part of. Special care would need to be taken so it doesn't become a lot of pages with a bunch of buildings (maybe a specific menu just for the specific workshops, divided in subgroups, making clear what which offer of different, and that the player have choices) and for once one is chosen he can't simply demolish it and choose a different one. I think this way you could still end up having a medieval armor guy with a japanese katana, but only through trade (and even that wouldn't be a necessity), without creating a total mess, mixing a bunch of different 'civs'.
Post by: Meph on May 27, 2014, 06:11:48 am
I dont know if its possible to make things unique, like "build workshop A, makes workshop B,C and D impossible". If I could do that it would be much easier, but I am fairly certain that there is no way to do that.
Post by: Meph on May 27, 2014, 01:52:40 pm
Quote
This threads purpose is to collect ideas for a playable human race. I will not start modding on them anytime soon, but I am interested what the people have to say. Elves would be the next best choice, but I would like to give a more dfhack-knowledgeable person a chance with this more magical race.
Till then I will improve Warlocks, integrate IndigoFenix Gnomes better, and brainstorm about the humans.
HUMANS
- Vanilla df human creature and civ as basis.
- Cant make steel.
- Pretty much normal DF nobles.
- Like castles and towns (difficult to build)
- Many Carpenters and Masons, for aboveground buildings.
- Custom kennels for special dog breeding and training.
- Custom stables for special horse breeding and training.
- Aboveground-only farm workshops, like dairy farm, agriculture monocultures and mills.
- Monocultures mean a workshop called "Turnip Farm" or "Vineyards".
- Winery makes red/white wine for nobles.
- Not alcohol dependant.
- Get one building per tradeable race, each other race can trade one blueprint.
----- Dwarf: Smith: Makes better metals, but wont reveal the secret of steel.
----- Elf: Fletcher: Makes better ammo and upgrades ranged weapons.
----- Drow: Poisoner: Small selection of poisoned goods.
----- Gnome: Tech-Building: Lets wait for IndigoFenix input.
----- Kobold: Trapper: Food and animal products.
----- Goblin: Slaver: Ransom hostages (more workers for you)
----- Orc: Clan Artisan: Handmade war-gear. Good weapons and armor.
----- Warlocks: Talismonger: Magical doodads and potions.
----- (No Automaton/Frost Giants, they are too hostile)
As you can see they would be heavily trade-based. Each caravan of these races can possibly sell you the buildmat for one of the mentioned buildings. But you have to take care not to call a goblin and dwarf caravan at the same time, because they might be at war. Maybe even two buildings per race. Dwarven Constructs, Elvish healers, Drow Alchemist, Gnome Engineer, Kobold Thief, Goblin Weapon/Trap Dude, Orc Mercenary, Warlock Necromancer.... many possibilities.
- Embassy that can call any diplomat, liaison and caravan, even orc/goblin/warlock.
- War Council that can declare war upon any race.
- Trade Storehouse to pack/unpack crates/special tradegoods.
- East Empire Trading Company: You can "ask for a trade request" and get a list of items you need. If you manage to get all the items on the list (maybe with a time limit) you can bring them to this workshop and "trade" them away for a big reward by the company.
- Merchant stalls. Like the ones in dwarf mode or the orcish caravanserai.
----- Weapons Merchant
----- Armor Merchant
----- Food Merchant
----- Creature Merchant
----- Jewel/Glass Merchant
----- Metal/Blacksmith Merchant
----- Wood/Carpentry Merchant
----- Tool Merchant (tools, toys, instruments, general items)
----- Clothing Merchant
----- Drink Merchant (Tavern?)
- A Bank to change or store money.
- Bribe invading armies into leaving.
- No butchering of sentients, that means no scalps or souls.
- Butchery, Brewery, Archeologist, Sawmill, general basic mod workshops.
- Custom workshop to cheaply make and arm siege engines.
- Halberds, swords, bows and crossbows, maces and hammers. Classical medieval weaponry.
- Pigs, Horses, Cats, Dogs, Chicken, etc. Normal RL domestic pets.
- Turnips, wheat, potatoes(?), tomatoes, grapes, etc. Normal RL plants.
- Muskets and Cannons (?)
- Breastplates, Greaves, Gauntlets, normal medieval armor and clothing stuff.
- Castes: A simple system:
----- Peasent: Menial labor caste.
----- Squire: Gets minor combat buff.
----- Knight: Gets major combat buff.
----- Merchant: Better for the merchant stalls etc.
----- Noble: Better for noble roles.
----- Clergy (???): (dont know about that one.
- Guildhalls: One large workshop that unlocks more uses for the category. The Carpenters Guildhall could unlock a better Carpentry and Sawmill. A Masons Guildhall could unlock the Stonecutters Workshop and a better Boulder-to-Block ratio. Each Guildhall would also have a training reaction for the fitting skills. Maybe 12 Guildhalls in total.
Guilds would cost gold to build and unlock better industries, this way your technological progress depends on your money. Since humans dont mine much, most of it will have to come from trading.
----- Masons
----- Carpenters
----- Smiths
----- Merchants
----- Healers
----- Tanner/Leatherworkers
----- Clothiers/Textile
----- Farmers
----- Fishers
----- Engineers
----- Jewelers/Glassmakers
----- Cooks/Brewers/Butchers
- Simple training workshops like a weightbench, a custom barracks/archery range.
- Taxation: Use paper and ink to make ledgers and have your peasents pay your 10% of all the made goods to you. (Input "goods", Output "taxed goods" + 10% bonus.) Means a workstep more for more money. Should be possible. Mostly to use up paper/ink and dimulate the RL 10% that farmers had to pay the landowners.
- Immigration Office: Request migrants or exile people (send unhappy humans off the map)
- Some form of religion. Maybe? Dfhack? I have no fresh idea for this yet.
- Arcane Library, Paladins, Witchhunters, Inquisition, all kinds of high-end shenanigans possible. No clear idea yet.
Overall they should be played mostly aboveground with little magical nonsense and be a pure medieval humas town+castle that invites all kinds of traders and is very multicultural. They would rely more on diplomacy or walls+siege engines for defense, but can send knights into combat. (maybe I can make fake-mounts with rider on horseback as one creature)
Just as a note:
12 Guildhalls, unlocking 1-2 fitting workshops each.
~10 basic mod workshops. (Pottery, Weightbench etc)
8 race-specific workshops. (Maybe 16)
10 (?) Merchant related workshops.
~6 human-specific workshops. (Knights, Embassy, etc)
~12 human-specific farm workshops, aboveground-only.
Thats a basic concept for ~80 workshops already. :)
What do you guys think? Good concept, or boring? More ideas to flesh this out a bit?
Post by: Meph on May 27, 2014, 02:40:14 pm
A custom building I modded in for myself that others might appreciate.
A bloomery is a sort of low-tech, low-profile, smaller-batch method of iron smelting, where you don't actually need a forge capable of reaching melting temperatures. Instead you just get the iron hot enough to be spongy, and you hammer it and knock out the brittle impurities while the metal stays together. You can also use oxygen and carbon and steady nerves to make steel using the technique, bits which you then weld together by folding them into bars that are useful.
Thus, this is a realistic method of producing steel without flux. (Iron there's no point since the normal smelter in game is more efficient, and I can't mod that to require flux)
In terms of actual reactions:
1) Build a bloomery which requires fire safe material and a firesafe anvil (for hammering blooms and welding)
2) Smelt 1 iron ore into 4 iron blooms using coal and a fuel.
3) Carburize individual blooms using a coal and a fuel. You have a 50% chance of getting flakes of steel each of 4 times per bloom (it's easy to screw up, which in reality would give you pig iron that you can't use a bloomery to smelt. So in game, 10% chance of a pig iron bar representing errors, which you can use normally if you trade for flux or find some later)
4) Weld 4 flakes into a steel bar using a fuel. (uses blacksmithing)
Each steel bar on average = 3.5 jobs, 6 trees (if using charcoal only), 0.5 ore (And comes with 0.5 bars worth of pig iron, if you have the means to use it)
Steel bars using the normal flux process = 1.5 jobs, 2.5 trees, 0.25 ore
So this is about double labor and resource intensive, but in return you do not need flux. Only iron and trees, or iron and coal. And it is actually metallurgically realistic still.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Propman on May 27, 2014, 05:48:41 pm
Post by: Meph on May 29, 2014, 07:14:54 am
Post by: Gamerlord on May 29, 2014, 07:32:11 am
Post by: palu on May 29, 2014, 09:11:06 am
Post by: Meph on May 29, 2014, 10:18:39 am
In the example above you can only build the Council Chamber. Then you upgrade it to one of the three versions on the right. If you want an additional version, you need to build a new Council Chamber and upgrade it to another version.
I think I will do the same with Guildhalls. Have a generic "Guildhall" as a workshop and the upgrades are called "Appoint this Guildhall to the Carpenters" or "Upgrade to Carpenters Guild" or something like that... and then I can add 12 reactions for the 12 guilds, BUT I only need a single building in the building menu. Its great. :)
Post by: Isngrim on May 29, 2014, 10:47:53 am
maybe make the
Post by: Meph on May 29, 2014, 10:49:03 am
Post by: Isngrim on May 29, 2014, 10:57:37 am
Don't know where i got dwarves from,sorry about that
Post by: danmanthedog on May 29, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Post by: Meph on May 29, 2014, 01:33:33 pm
Post by: zach123b on May 29, 2014, 03:02:17 pm
Post by: Meph on May 29, 2014, 03:03:13 pm
Post by: Buel on June 03, 2014, 10:27:47 am
Post by: Meph on June 03, 2014, 10:30:24 am
Post by: Meph on June 05, 2014, 11:19:07 am
(http://i.imgur.com/FQcw4Vu.png)
Post by: Crysalis on June 06, 2014, 08:26:13 am
Post by: Meph on June 06, 2014, 08:27:54 am
Post by: Dark5pawn on June 13, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
Post by: Blightedmarsh on June 14, 2014, 02:00:42 am
Culture and civilizations:
My concept is that we don't look at a human fortress as an out post of an expanding civilization. Instead it builds initially like an indigenous local community. It acquires "civilization" through trade and contact or conflict with other cultures. Under this model their would only be 1 playable human race but multiple non playable human cultures. Rather than spam different caravans from multiple races you would send out an expedition to a given civilization to pay homage and open up trade with that culture. This system would also mean that if you got invaded by a Persian army it would only have Persian equipment
Essentially you would buy into a chosen culture through the purchase of trade licenses and the construction of embassies. This system would allow you as the player to create a cultural blend that suits your playstyle/aesthetic desires. Because there would be two or three levels of increasingly expensive investiture in each culture it would be hard to just spam up all cultures; rather you would have to weigh the pros and cons of each pick.
Cavalry:
I don't know if mounts are something possible in game as of yet. I think that a stop gap would be to use a system for temporarily buffing warriors into "cavalry". This would be a stable where the warrior would run the reaction "mount up" the stable would require a breeding pair of animals as build materials.
Mud bricks:
Don't knock them. Mud brick walls hold up to cannon fire better than stone as they absorb the impact. In fact there is a kind of siege works called gabions still in use today; large earth filled wicker baskets that can absorb cannon fire.
Slaves:
The problem with slavery as you know is that it is not really supported by the game engine. Orcish slavery and pet based slavery are essentially work arounds. Whilst the basic concept is strong enough to be almost universally applicable I believe that it would depend on modding support by the Toady one.
weapons
Two range weapons I would like to see emphasized early game are the atla and the sling. An atla is essentially a stick used to throw a javelin further and harder.
Post by: omniclasm on June 14, 2014, 05:00:08 am
The "mount" script I tried worked in getting the unit on top of the mount, but then the mount just wandered around as it normally would.
I guess a secondary script could exist that sets the mounts destination coordinates to whatever the rider's destination coordinates are, but that would still get weird with pasturing and various other things.
Post by: Meph on June 14, 2014, 06:47:40 am
Post by: SIGVARDR on June 19, 2014, 09:24:41 pm
It fits in well with the trade,diplomacy and expansionism traits. as well if going for an early medieval feel, mercenaries were essentially always around, and played huge roles.
I suppose one could create a specific mercenary caste with fighting oriented traits, 0 birth chance, that would only appear when spawning through the mercenary workshop. One could in fact even have dwarf, elf mercenaries, etc. I suppose, if my memory on how that system works is correct.
From there, would it be possible for them to require monthly or seasonal "payments" or have a chance of leaving modified by mood? (emigration script I suppose) Or the initial fee could simply be exorbitant as to represent a permanent contract.
Post by: Meph on June 19, 2014, 09:41:53 pm
Post by: Crysalis on June 20, 2014, 12:47:43 am
Post by: migshark on June 20, 2014, 02:49:43 am
I didn't see any mention of bath houses. They were pretty popular in the Mediterranean in the general era that you're basing humans off of and I think they'd make a nice addition.
Money making the whole civ tick is awesome, but on a gameplay level it would mean countless satellite stockpiles and extra hauling jobs, but that's only troublesome if it were an additional reagent. I propose for every non-vanilla/raw-resources workshop, money should be the only reagent necessary for every reaction, with the exceptions of any research/trade partner like things you might need. It would make it really feel like you're balancing the books more than you're micromanaging industries, and help to not swamp newer players with so many MW items.
The guildhall/garrison etc' and libraries being separate in Dwarf mode has always felt weird to me, and with the workshop upgrade feature there's the possibility of combining them without making it difficult to get people into castes, even if you don't have library supplies. I figure combining them for humans would make the guildhalls more useful, and thus more central to the civ.
'Bit of a silly thought and this might be an unwanted degree of difficulty, but is it possible to have disease-based religion or factions and use buffs to increase/decrease susceptibility to particular strains, like propaganda? If it would mean everyone is blinking all the time, or modifies their ability to resist regular diseases, then I guess not.
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 02:55:54 am
Money for everything: You mean.... everything? "Brew Drink - 500 coins", "Forge Sword - 500 coins", "Make Chair - 500 coins" etc ? That would be different for sure, but I have no idea how balanced that would be... or if people would even like that. Embarks on a gold vein would be seriously overpowered. And it would mean that no skills are needed, because all items are bought... no crafters would create anything, so quality plays no role.
Libraries are merged already in dwarf mode. :)
Disease-based religion? Propaganda gives resistance against strains? I think you have to go a bit more into details here, because that sounds somewhat weird.
Post by: burrito25man on June 20, 2014, 03:44:28 am
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 04:03:19 am
Post by: migshark on June 20, 2014, 05:02:57 am
I... kinda forgot about item quality, that does put a damper on the money thing. The vanilla workshops would still operate normally, so I guess it depends on what other stuff you want to make and if quality would affect them much? Or you could give humans no labour skill gain, and instead make them pay ~yearly dues to their respective guild in order to maintain a particular skill level, which would be a fun balancing game in combination with the 'the more idlers the better' concept. Actually ordering every human to pay dues would be tedious though, so I'm thinking that would only work if their was an auto banking system somewhat similar to the druidic merit system. With banking, exchange rates, more denominations of coins(?), and generally the ability to sell most goods at fair rates, embarking on gold shouldn't matter too much. I know that's a lot of balancing, but for a trade-based civ, it's kinda necessary pat pat.
I meant that the guildhall would be the base building, and you'd upgrade it to have inbuilt libraries, since they both serve to educate... though with multiple types of guildhalls that might require two tiers of upgrades, not sure if that's possible?
Also: debt collectors as an enemy?
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 05:08:45 am
Mist Generator could be done, either like the gnomish one, or a special human bath.
Linking skill gain to coins you have to pay wouldnt work that well. I already do that for skeletons in Warlock mode, skills for souls, and people report that its quite a lot of micromanagement.
Coins are stacks as well, so I can only use 500*x for everything.
I want to give them 20 workshops that are trade-based. 10 of them traders that sell/buy stuff for coins, and 10 workshops that make race specific goods. Thats the big trade-based part of the race.
Quote
I meant that the guildhall would be the base building, and you'd upgrade it to have inbuilt libraries... though with multiple types of guildhalls that might require two tiers of upgrades, not sure if that's possible?Possible, but why would you build libraries into guildhalls? They are two different techs. One handles castes, the other trains skills.
Quote
Also: debt collectors as an enemy?Ehm, no?
Post by: migshark on June 20, 2014, 05:18:57 am
Post by: Samarkand on June 20, 2014, 11:17:26 am
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 02:55:25 pm
Amongst that trading could there be reactions that try to cheat the trade partner out of money, and so have a chance to start a siege? Or something.You get most race attacking you anyway. That would only add additional sieges from elves, humans and gnomes. Its a bit harsh... "hey, that guy cheated on me" "Oh, hey, a trader of my race made a bad deal, lets kill everyone." (which would also mean that the trader makes no business at all afterwards)
Post by: Samarkand on June 20, 2014, 04:30:58 pm
That's fair. I just thought a lot of races have some sort of way to call a siege through their actions, like raiding or stealing, and it seemed the human equivalent would be cheating people.Amongst that trading could there be reactions that try to cheat the trade partner out of money, and so have a chance to start a siege? Or something.You get most race attacking you anyway. That would only add additional sieges from elves, humans and gnomes. Its a bit harsh... "hey, that guy cheated on me" "Oh, hey, a trader of my race made a bad deal, lets kill everyone." (which would also mean that the trader makes no business at all afterwards)
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 05:30:14 pm
Post by: Samarkand on June 20, 2014, 09:28:52 pm
Dwarves, Warlocks, Gnomes and Succubi do not have those. Only Orc Raids and Kobold Thievery triggers sieges.Dwarves used to. :P
Post by: Meph on June 20, 2014, 09:41:46 pm
Post by: Samarkand on June 20, 2014, 10:13:30 pm
No. The dwarven expedition system existed before the force script, and the reactions never triggered any sieges. It was on my todo list though.Ah, that's what I'm remembering then. Thanks for the clarification. :)
Post by: Meph on June 24, 2014, 08:42:18 am
Build base workshop / merchant stall.
"Rent workshop/stall to instert-race-here"
Costs 1 trade permit thingy from a caravan.
Turns the workshop into the specific workshop you wanted. (Merchant stall empty into Gnome Merchant for example)
Also produces 500 gold coins.
After 1 year (or a similar time) workshop returns to empty state.
This means you have to invite caravans, trade for a race specific item, use it to "rent out a building", which gives you money, and you can trade with these guys for a year. You can "prolong contract" for another of the race specific items you got from caravans, add another year for each time you do this, also creating more coins for you.
Post by: Axmeister on June 25, 2014, 09:20:00 am
I've seen changes being made in the update logs but in the civilisation selection tab it is still impossible to select Humans to play as.
Post by: Meph on June 25, 2014, 10:03:28 am
Is it possible to play as Humans in fortress mode yet?Ask again in 3 weeks. Then it will be a yes.
I've seen changes being made in the update logs but in the civilisation selection tab it is still impossible to select Humans to play as.
Post by: GreyPowerVan on June 25, 2014, 06:46:37 pm
Got a good idea today:
Build base workshop / merchant stall.
"Rent workshop/stall to instert-race-here"
Costs 1 trade permit thingy from a caravan.
Turns the workshop into the specific workshop you wanted. (Merchant stall empty into Gnome Merchant for example)
Also produces 500 gold coins.
After 1 year (or a similar time) workshop returns to empty state.
This means you have to invite caravans, trade for a race specific item, use it to "rent out a building", which gives you money, and you can trade with these guys for a year. You can "prolong contract" for another of the race specific items you got from caravans, add another year for each time you do this, also creating more coins for you.
That sounds really cool. Can't wait for multi-racial fortresses (Someone will figure it out, one day).
Post by: Meph on June 27, 2014, 02:47:15 am
Quote
- Warlock magic show
- Succubus burlesque show
- Kobold comedian
- Orc show fight
- Drow shadow play
- Goblin troupe
- Human bard
- Elf singer
- Dwarf storyteller
- Gnome tech exhibition
Each version would either affect anyone nearby, like the Dwarven Tavern, or only the worker.
Renting out the stage gives you gold.
Attending a show costs you gold.
Reactions/Buffs would be similar to Dwarven Tavern, giving buffs to attributes, adding tags or giving good thoughts.
Post by: Snaaty on June 27, 2014, 08:51:16 am
Is it possible to make mounts available for your citizens in Dwarf Fortress mode?
Perhaps through one of those transformation-reactions?
I suppose it would be quite difficult, at the same time I think it would fit humans (esp. knights) very well, to ride into battle on their mighty steed.
Post by: Meph on June 27, 2014, 08:57:49 am
Post by: Snaaty on June 27, 2014, 10:09:22 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:'(
Is that because it would be incredibly difficult to mod, or because it is simply impossible?
Maybe the humans could also use the hive-industry some more. With my dwarves I usually forget about harvesting bees and other insects. Not incredibly flavourful for humans, but perhapy a nice gimmick.
(Not sure, what could be added. Is it even possible to make some hive-reactions available only for one race, because the insect are "vermin"?)
Post by: Meph on June 27, 2014, 10:16:27 am
And yes, its impossible. There is a very hacky dfhack thing that puts creatures on mounts, but the mount dictates the movement. So even if you have 10 humans on horses, and order the squad to move to X, the horses just meander around. And the humans complain about not being able to move anywhere and die of thirst.
Post by: SIGVARDR on June 27, 2014, 08:54:29 pm
Post by: Flare on June 30, 2014, 10:41:16 am
Post by: Meph on June 30, 2014, 11:01:41 am
Quote
default metal working reactionsNo, I cant.
Post by: Mithril Leaf on June 30, 2014, 01:43:53 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 30, 2014, 01:53:28 pm
Hivekeeping is more for the insect race, and there is a vanilla bug that prevents you from using more than 1 hivekeeper. Not a good thing.
And yes, its impossible. There is a very hacky dfhack thing that puts creatures on mounts, but the mount dictates the movement. So even if you have 10 humans on horses, and order the squad to move to X, the horses just meander around. And the humans complain about not being able to move anywhere and die of thirst.
wouldnt it be possible to create one "creature knight caste something" that is horse+rider in one? with 4 horse legs, 2 rider legs, horse head, rider head, organs for both... etc so the horse wouldnt decide the movement, but instead its just a normal "human" with "extra horse bodyparts" and more speed etc.
with maybe some training reaction that requires a horse+a person and then creates a knight? not sure if it could keep track of the 2 used items and recreate them if it would be possible to "unmount" too. (incase of the rider name and repationships, kills and all that)
but maybe its just "once you are a knight you are stuck to the horse and military forever". no more civillian jobs for knights, and instead total devotion to knighting/military... i dunno, we have succubus summoning creatures and dwarfs build in golems, why not a human morphing into a knight 6 leg 2 head horse/human mix?
well it would be quite weird... but maybe that way it would be possible to "fake" something riding something on a basic level?
as gfx maybe it could replace one of the normal weapon unit gfx (pikeman? or something) and have a gfx of a mounted knight.
Post by: burrito25man on June 30, 2014, 02:24:49 pm
wouldnt it be possible to create one "creature knight caste something" that is horse+rider in one? with 4 horse legs, 2 rider legs, horse head, rider head, organs for both... etc so the horse wouldnt decide the movement, but instead its just a normal "human" with "extra horse bodyparts" and more speed etc.
with maybe some training reaction that requires a horse+a person and then creates a knight? not sure if it could keep track of the 2 used items and recreate them if it would be possible to "unmount" too. (incase of the rider name and repationships, kills and all that)
but maybe its just "once you are a knight you are stuck to the horse and military forever". no more civillian jobs for knights, and instead total devotion to knighting/military... i dunno, we have succubus summoning creatures and dwarfs build in golems, why not a human morphing into a knight 6 leg 2 head horse/human mix?
well it would be quite weird... but maybe that way it would be possible to "fake" something riding something on a basic level?
as gfx maybe it could replace one of the normal weapon unit gfx (pikeman? or something) and have a gfx of a mounted knight.
I know someone else mentioned something like that earlier, however having a human-horse "fusion" caste would lead to strange querks like the rider dying from blood loss when a horseleg is lopped off, or the rider continuing to fight after losing one of it's "heads"
Post by: CptCrunchy on July 02, 2014, 12:45:20 am
The multiple heads thing was the main issue, though a graphic for them would be annoying to implement too
Post by: Nelia Hawk on July 02, 2014, 01:32:37 am
i guess its not possible for a function/interaction/something to scan a creature if i.e. one "bodymass" stops living ?
i.e. if the function notices that the horse head gets chopped off the horse part would stumble on the groudn and the rider fly off... i.e. it removes the "Knight" and creates a dead horse and the rider gets spawned with a force flying a few tiles into the direction they were "facing" (the rider might still got saved somewhere when the "knight" was made from a person + horse interaction or so)
or when the horse looses the ability to stand/move a similar thing.
if the rider stops living it might spawn a horse and the saved person as dead or so.
(well probably would still be a problem to remove the dead "knight" from the military and reassign the new spawned rider back to the squad. not even talking about assigning the correct legend kills to the correct horse/rider again when one dies or so... all that would probably be quite a hassle to get working)
so ya as its not really possible to create knights that way... no point riding around on a dead horse.... erm... idea here haha.
well we can still assign war horses to swordsman. (maybe we can make armored war horses?)
maybe toady will at some point update the military stuff so we might be able to "assign" mounts to people similar to how we can assign war animals to people. maybe with a function in the military screen to "always be mounted" or "just be mounted on duty" similar to how the uniform works with always in uniform or civ cloths or so...
maybe the mount would be stored in assigned stables then similar to how armor/weapons would be stored in barracks armorstands/weaponstands offduty.
(not even sure if this even works atm... think they dont store their items in the barracks and just drop them? at least i think they did that some time ago, havent checked if that got updated at some point and they store their items properly now in weapon racks etc and reequip properly from there once on duty. *shrugs*)
Post by: Nuttycompa on July 02, 2014, 08:29:59 am
I think Gnome's druid point is a very fun system to play with.
So how about, instead of druid point, Human will have "Chivalry point" that will be foundation of everything about knight system.
You can gain a point in many different way, like +1 for every evil creature you kill or -1 for every peasants that you can't protect.
I don't think it will be much work as Indigo had lay out a very strong foundation for this, you just have to adjust it to fit the theme :D
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 08:31:25 am
I just come here to throw some idea at you Meph.But what should it do? Yes, I can collect points of Chivalry, but to what end?
I think Gnome's druid point is a very fun system to play with.
So how about, instead of druid point, Human will have "Chivalry point" that will be foundation of everything about knight system.
You can gain a point in many different way, like +1 for every evil creature you kill or -1 for every peasants that you can't protect.
I don't think it will be much work as Indigo had lay out a very strong foundation for this, you just have to adjust it to fit the theme :D
Post by: Nuttycompa on July 02, 2014, 08:39:33 am
May be it will unlock some upgrade to your knight
Or allow you to transform more of your peasant to knight cast
Or transform your knight to more badass tier like inner circle knight, knight of round or grandmaster
Or....................well I don't even know what I,m talking anymore :'( :'( :'(
Well all I think is it can be something that give player a feeling of achievement something, well may be someone will have a better idea about how to put it to good use :P
Post by: Samarkand on July 02, 2014, 08:46:06 am
:o This is actually a hard questionThere's been a lot of discussion about how to make progression possible, if you could make buildings our reactions dependent on these points you could get a cool progression system. Must kill so many undead before paladins are unlocked, etc.
May be it will unlock some upgrade to your knight
Or allow you to transform more of your peasant to knight cast
Or transform your knight to more badass tier like inner circle knight, knight of round or grandmaster
Or....................well I don't even know what I,m talking anymore :'( :'( :'(
Well all I think is it can be something that give player a feeling of achievement something, well may be someone will have a better idea about how to put it to good use :P
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 08:58:46 am
Post by: Samarkand on July 02, 2014, 09:05:08 am
We already have a progression (money), and it makes no sense whatsoever to tie your technological advancements to "how nice you are". Especially when I think back to the second world war and all the tech that has been invented at the time. ^^I was thinking more along the lines of paladins being semi magical undead slaying knights. In which case it makes sense to kill a few undead first. :-)
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 09:08:08 am
Post by: Corundum on July 02, 2014, 10:28:53 am
I don't know if it's possible, but maybe have some sort of warning message that 'Mr. Axeman's contract is about to expire' a month before it happens? This might get too hard to manage but that could be part of the the cost of hiring a legendary warrior.
Another part of hiring them would be giving them a noble position(not really a noble, but a position similar to captain of the guard in dwarf mode) that requires giving them quarters and furnishings. After all, if you want the best you have to pay for it. ;)
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 10:40:02 am
Regarding mercenaries, maybe make it so you have to hire them for a specific time frame? You have a reaction that hires a legendary-skilled mercenary for gold/paper money. Make the contract last for a year and make it renewable by the human hired. In other words, he/she runs a reaction to renew the contract.Hire them for a time frame: Possible, they could turn "friendly" and leave with the next caravan. That can be done. I think I can even make them "renew contracts", maybe. But not the noble thing.
I don't know if it's possible, but maybe have some sort of warning message that 'Mr. Axeman's contract is about to expire' a month before it happens? This might get too hard to manage but that could be part of the the cost of hiring a legendary warrior.
Another part of hiring them would be giving them a noble position(not really a noble, but a position similar to captain of the guard in dwarf mode) that requires giving them quarters and furnishings. After all, if you want the best you have to pay for it. ;)
I can allow a noble position that only accepts mercenaries, but they wouldnt be assigne automatically.
Post by: Snaaty on July 02, 2014, 02:25:57 pm
Now for the (late and general) criticism:
As far as I can see, money is generaly a very important factor in the average human fortress. Yet, I feel that money never really fits in the df universe. The simulation that is dwarf fortress, lets you take on the role of a purely producing and consuming economy, the only exchange of goods is through "item for item" trade with caravans (at least in vanilla df), and everything in the fortress belongs to you and can be freely disrtibuted (except in some noble situations). Wealth is being counted anyway, you don't have to amass piles of gold coins in your chambers.
The actual problem I see with putting emphasis on using coins and "money", is the following. Depending on how much gold you mine, you can make more, or less gold coins. Fair enough, in medieval times it was probably somewhat similar. Still I feel like something is "wrong", if you can just mine for gold and print your own money to eventually buy stuff with that. Basically this chain of production is the same as mine for gold, make masterwork gold bracelets, and profit (through caravans). Increasing the importance of coins also creates the impression that there are actually two seperate "currencies" in your fort; coins and "items".
Now, as far as I can see, humans even have plenty of reactions to create coins from not-mining, so maybe that's not that much of a problem.
Also, this is not intended to belittle your ideas for the humans, I just wanted to give my two cents. I hope I could somehow show what my problem with coins in Dwarf Fortress is.
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 02:30:41 pm
All this has been disabled by Toady One because it wasnt too refined and caused lag because of all the single coins floating around.
Economy and money is a DF thing. And Toady One will write his own system one day.
Quote
Still I feel like something is "wrong", if you can just mine for gold and print your own money to eventually buy stuff with that.That is exactly how it was in RL history. Or, if you like a fantasy example, how the Lannisters got so rich.
Post by: Samarkand on July 02, 2014, 02:35:59 pm
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 02:42:37 pm
The building would be "adventurers tavern" or something similar, and you can hire them for coin, adding them as a newly spawned unit to your fort. I think I'd make the price very high and let them stay permanently. They could even spawn with equipment (which would lie on the floor next to them).
Post by: draeath on July 02, 2014, 02:46:53 pm
QuoteStill I feel like something is "wrong", if you can just mine for gold and print your own money to eventually buy stuff with that.That is exactly how it was in RL history. Or, if you like a fantasy example, how the Lannisters got so rich.
Yep. This (commodity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money)) is exactly the way money works before development of a fiat currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money).
Post by: LMeire on July 02, 2014, 05:30:59 pm
Post by: Meph on July 02, 2014, 05:43:42 pm
Quote
Does renting say, a stage prevent workers from trying to rent out the stage again until the first group clears out?yes. The building changes, so the first "rent out" reaction is not available anymore.
Post by: Erivor on July 04, 2014, 06:28:21 am
what if humans could carry bags of money around as a type of belonging, it might help simulate wealth and it might tempt players into causing "unfortunate accidents" to the richer citizens.
again completely random idea.
Post by: Samarkand on July 04, 2014, 08:37:09 am
Post by: moseythepirate on July 17, 2014, 11:22:21 am
Anyway, I've been playing with a human town, and I like what I see so far (though it is still admittedly in very early phases). I especially love how the foreigner shops charge rent.
My biggest problem has been getting building materials. Since humans are an above-ground race, It's really important that they obtain enough stone and wood for building materials, but they can't quarry really effectively because of their cave sickness. I don't think free building materials (like the Warlocks have) is the answer for thematic reasons; it makes sense with Warlocks, since they are magically pulling blocks from the aether, but humans? Naw. Though it might make sense to be able to buy a late-ish game workshop from Warlocks in which you can get such things, but that's a different post.
Perhaps a solution might be if they could split logs and stone into low-or-zerp value materials in large quantities? For example, boulder > 8 cobblestones, or even block > 4 cobblestones (though I think it would be more streamlined to let it go directly from boulders). I know that there could easily be clutter issues, but it would help ease the burden of getting your initial buildings up and running.
Post by: Arcvasti on July 17, 2014, 11:55:26 am
Post by: Meph on July 17, 2014, 01:16:20 pm
Post by: FearsomeClarinet on July 17, 2014, 03:04:16 pm
- Casino: Never found a good way to write those wiyh raws, but warmist was working on some fancy idle-script, that allows idle workers to do jobs themselves... like playing games.
- (Major idea: Make use of this script to make idle humans a good thing. The more idlers you have, the more they use gambling, shops and the merchant stalls to generate income for you.)
I can just imagine the large amount of jobless deadbeats in human towns.
Post by: Arcvasti on July 22, 2014, 09:21:25 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on July 23, 2014, 09:23:47 am
Just finished some playtesting of Humans. [Bunch of stuff cut out because it was a really long message]Building supplies will probably be less of a problem in the future when every tree you cut down gives you over ten wood. About the stone, I remember the idea of buildings a big quarry being mentioned, did you try that? I haven't been able to play humans yet, but if quarries aren't good then maybe the cave adaptation should take longer to come into effect.
Post by: Guthbug on July 23, 2014, 10:10:00 am
What did the ancient Egyptians use to get lots of stone? Bread and beer! Consume some bread and booze as part of the reaction, and then maybe a 90% chance to lose your mining pick and I'd think running a continuous reaction on a building to produce stone blocks might be acceptable.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 24, 2014, 04:40:37 pm
What did the ancient Egyptians use to get lots of stone? Bread and beer! Consume some bread and booze as part of the reaction, and then maybe a 90% chance to lose your mining pick and I'd think running a continuous reaction on a building to produce stone blocks might be acceptable.
The problem with this is that you need to have an industry (namely, farming) in order to produce your stone, when having large amounts of building materials are required to get your town off the ground. The solution needs to be something that can be done immediately upon embarking. Good thinking, though.
Post by: Guthbug on July 24, 2014, 05:19:48 pm
I'm just thinking of how real human cities develop. First it's a village, then it's a town, then it's a city.
I'm looking forward to playing humans. Seems like there's a lot of good stuff in there. Initially I thought they'd be kind of bland, not being a fantasy race, but it looks like "bland" has been well and truly fixed.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 24, 2014, 05:55:07 pm
Haven't you ever heard the expression, "Rome wasn't built in a day?" :)
I'm just thinking of how real human cities develop. First it's a village, then it's a town, then it's a city.
Well...yeah. But the problem is that you need lots of stone for even basic facilities. For example, a 6/3 dorm/dining hall (which is pretty small, and would need to be expanded upon very quickly) would require...
*BOOPBEEBOOPBEEEPBEEP*
22 blocks for the walls, and 20 for the roof. That is just one small building that you need within the first season. What about giving all humans their own home? Or building a warehouse to keep your goods safe? Or a wall around the town? This isn't skyscraper material here but those migrants aren't going to wait for a nice, reasonable growth. This isn't like the Warlocks, where you get two migrant waves and then you can call it good. You are going to need to constantly expand, and you can only build up and out...while, I suppose you could do what Arcavesti did and hollow out basements, but that's hardly "human-y."
But hey, there are lots of solutions to this problem. Maybe you could have early game reactions that make large amounts of stone blocks to get started, and later game reactions that make skull-crackingly silly amounts of...concrete?
Post by: Guthbug on July 24, 2014, 06:04:04 pm
I foresee lots of tenement housing in human towns.
Post by: Samarkand on July 24, 2014, 07:07:55 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on July 24, 2014, 07:12:14 pm
Once we go to v40 you'll have more than enough wood to erect housing.You know, I hear a lot of people say that, but I don't want to have to embark in a forest, you know? Any race that requires you to embark in certain conditions is one that needs work, if you get what I'm saying.
Post by: Guthbug on July 24, 2014, 07:25:39 pm
Once we go to v40 you'll have more than enough wood to erect housing.You know, I hear a lot of people say that, but I don't want to have to embark in a forest, you know? Any race that requires you to embark in certain conditions is one that needs work, if you get what I'm saying.
PARTICULARLY humans, I would think, who are known for their adaptability.
I, for instance, live in a desert. Not that much wood. Many of the buildings we have built here on the farm use sand as the base of their construction. Sand bags. Fill them up with sand, stack them up, and then put a roof on it and you have a very good building. It'll last hundreds of years and stays 10 degrees cooler than everything else because of the thick, earthen walls.
I would think that having multiple building materials would lend a very interesting air to humans.
Post by: LMeire on July 25, 2014, 01:58:33 am
Post by: Meph on July 25, 2014, 02:38:18 am
Personally, I think the key to to human housing should be opportunism and adaptability, not "one plan fits all" designs and metrics. There's a 4000 year-old city in northern Africa where each multistory townhouse is made entirely of unfired clay, villages along the amazon river are sometimes little more than a wall-less stilt-huts made from woven reeds; before the industrial era, the only times anything was regularly built with stone or metal was either for the rich, the religious, or the military. If your embark site has lots of trees, build with wood. If you have a clay layer, build with either raw clay or earthenware bricks. If your embark site is excellent for farming grasses and vines, build with thatching. Lack all three, mix up some concrete like the Romans did. etc.Clay/mud walls, earthenware/stoneware bricks, thatch/wicker, wood... thats all available already to them. :)
Post by: moseythepirate on July 25, 2014, 11:24:44 am
Perhaps the humans could have means of mass-producing blocks of all materials? You obviously need to have the raw supplies, but they are a thrifty bunch, and can make the materials stretch in ways the other races don't.Personally, I think the key to to human housing should be opportunism and adaptability, not "one plan fits all" designs and metrics. There's a 4000 year-old city in northern Africa where each multistory townhouse is made entirely of unfired clay, villages along the amazon river are sometimes little more than a wall-less stilt-huts made from woven reeds; before the industrial era, the only times anything was regularly built with stone or metal was either for the rich, the religious, or the military. If your embark site has lots of trees, build with wood. If you have a clay layer, build with either raw clay or earthenware bricks. If your embark site is excellent for farming grasses and vines, build with thatching. Lack all three, mix up some concrete like the Romans did. etc.Clay/mud walls, earthenware/stoneware bricks, thatch/wicker, wood... thats all available already to them. :)
Post by: Guthbug on July 27, 2014, 04:10:57 pm
I started with an old fashioned motte and bailey design, and I'm already out of room inside the walls, so most of the workshops and stuff will have to go out.
Post by: Guthbug on July 27, 2014, 05:23:58 pm
Post by: Bainin on July 28, 2014, 01:22:57 am
First of a Stonequarry would be nice mutch like the spawn Blocks from the Warlocks Where you can generate Stoneblocks for your Walls and Housing you should be able to chose the Color like white marble or gray stone and so on to give your city walls the color you like.
A normal woodenfence which protects your Animals from Hostile land animals except flying ones alternativ would be the scarecrow nice or combined for land and flying animals.
I donbt know iv its just me but i dont build often outside because i have issues building the Roof of the buildings we should be able to build mutch faster or having a increased build range of 1 Z lvl because Humans are bigger then Dwarfs which would make the roof building alot easyer.
I think Steel should be able to use for Humans even iv they have to research it having Guns but no steel is kinda odd to me but thats my opinion.
Also would i like it iv there would be a way you can build walls which are already like 1x5 or 5x1 and 1x10 10x1 long whith the materials at hands you could build these wall faster and without abording all the time because the dwarf/Human stands on the tile he wants to build on.
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 01:31:49 am
Humans have steel, made by the smiths guild.
A trick: channel one level down, make a large open area, then build a floor as ceiling. Way less work than building up walls and stairs and ceiling.
Here:
(http://i.imgur.com/J8Ma5RK.png)
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 07:29:56 am
I use a lot of "basements" for food storage and the like. We're humans, not hobbits! :)
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 10:03:42 am
We still don't have anything up but vanilla buildings. I finally bought some contracts from an elf caravan and rented out a merchant stall, and there's 500 gold coins in the basement of the village inn, but the guild hall doesn't recognize that and won't let me advance. :(
Strangely enough though, I'm more attached to this fort than even my largest, most thriving dwarf settlements. Watching walls for various buildings go up and then seeing fields and a fishing dock expand out into the river is very satisfying.
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 10:41:45 am
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 10:46:48 am
Its 5000, not 500 for the guild in your version. But I am uploading my new dev version, its 1000 for the first stage. It should be a lot easier.
Holy crap. No wonder. :)
Do they take different denominations? If I have 50,000 copper coins on hand, will it take what it needs from that or is it gold and only gold?
If they only take a certain coinage, I would suggest separating out a moneychanger booth early on, or else human forts are going to take 2+ years to even become developed at all.
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 10:47:48 am
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 10:49:11 am
I covered that. No more copper or silver coins. All traders take and produce gold coins now. So instead of 1 leather for 500 coppers you now sell 4 leather for 500 gold.
Brilliant fix to simplify. Should be more playable now.
When you get the new version uploaded, I'm going to try to build Laketown. :)
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 11:10:57 am
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 11:20:48 am
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 01:10:24 pm
They were wiped out by a wandering herd of woolly mammoths in the second year. :(
Next we'll try a desert. :(
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
1. Defense sucks unless you wall yourself in early on. Have a tower, church, or room in the inn where you can burrow your citizens and have them run for a centralized location to defend. Ambushes suck all the way around though.
2. Stone is better than wood. The stone cutter yields more blocks than the wood splitter does.
3. Mining straight down in a quarry is good, but unless you modify the cavern settings, you're going to hit that first cave layer all too soon.
4. You can mine in small chunks without worrying about cave adaptation. Mine out about 10 rooms at a time at first, then move on to 20 when your miner is highly skilled.
5. Food production is easy. Big farms, lots of fishing and hunting.
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 02:37:50 pm
Quote
when your miner is highly skilled.I will make their mining skill increase slower. :)
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 02:56:53 pm
Quotewhen your miner is highly skilled.I will make their mining skill increase slower. :)
Curse you, Meph! :)
It probably ought to though. I don't bother with that weird quarry thing. So far I've just been digging down and pulling out 5-10 boulders at a time. Guys with wheelbarrows aren't in there long enough to get sick.
My last little town was doing pretty good. Had a couple of trade stalls up, a forge churning out copper weaponry, and enough food to get us through the winter and sell as much as needed too.
Then came the vicious monkey attack of the winter of 68. A dozen gray langur charged my beautiful 4 story inn, threw poop everywhere, and bit everyone.
Post by: Meph on July 28, 2014, 03:11:33 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 03:19:22 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 03:29:05 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on July 28, 2014, 04:45:11 pm
Caravans are still your best bet to sell stuff, if you can wait. Otherwise you don't get the true value for things with the masterpiece bonus (or whatever level your crafter is).Well, that depends on whether or not you want it for goods or for special services caravans can't provide, like the mercenaries at the tavern for instance.
Post by: Guthbug on July 28, 2014, 04:59:39 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on July 29, 2014, 04:06:23 am
Stonecrafting levels up astonishingly quickly on the brick-splitting block. After less than a year, an untrained, unguilded human nearly hit legendary.
I haven't tested with all of them, but the Dwarven Merchant stall at least is bugged. If you select "rent to dwarves (year)" your human will bring a license over, which will disappear and be replaced by a big pile of gold.
Finally, your liason offers to make your town a Barony remarkably quickly. Again, within the first year or so. I'm a hamlet barony.
I have some other observations, but it's 3:00 AM here and my brain is fried.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 05:14:53 am
Post by: Emperor on July 29, 2014, 05:16:54 am
It could possibly further expand humans adaptability, and remove the constant complaints about nasty water when embarking in a swamp area, or, give you a fast way to make water from ice in colder regions.
Also, what about modifying ways of generating wealth? My town consisting of a farm, few workshops and 2x2 houses for peasants had more generated wealth than a self-sustaining vanilla dwarven fortress.
Post by: Kiefatar on July 29, 2014, 08:56:09 am
Then unfortunately, a pack of gargoyles came swooping in before I had any sort of military or weaponry set up (just after 2nd migrant wave) and my war dogs simply weren't enough. Calm environs but I swear, at least a fifth of my forts fall to Gargoyles. Even simple militias can oft-times get slaughtered by them. Steelclad Horse was no help either, but that's to be expected I guess (note to self, butcher the horse make steel stuff).
So question... what's the 'process' by which to make a profit using the traders? Though you have near infinite money if you have reliable fishing, all other reactions seem to be fairly product neutral after processing. Or is it about exploiting whatever you have locally and only import that which you need? With the various merchants, I'm not even sure if you need a farm at all. A few transactions can get you all the booze you need pretty quickly.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 09:59:38 am
Something seems broken about the economic system though. I can't put my finger on it.
Post by: Fleeb on July 29, 2014, 12:13:51 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 12:29:41 pm
So, for the brick-splitting block thing, how do I tell it not to use economic stone? I have a ton of granite laying around, and my humans insist on grabbing the gold-bearing rock.
I did that through stockpile settings, and then told the splitting workshop to take from that stockpile only. Though I really didn't mind them splitting malachite. Made for interesting green buildings.
Post by: Fleeb on July 29, 2014, 12:41:10 pm
Unrelatedly... OMG this is killing me. I'm trying to build a wall, and there's two spots where construction keeps getting suspended. My mason walks over, stands on the spot where the wall should go, and suspends the construction due to a creature occupying the spot. The creature is himself! There's plenty of other spots he could stand and build it, but he insists on standing right where the wall should go.
Eh, fixed it by building a wall next to where I want it, deconstructing it and then building it again in the proper place. Stupid humies.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 12:46:05 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 01:52:05 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 01:54:48 pm
Even with dfhack, I can't get a decent water source that doesn't freeze. Indoor water even in the basement of a building will freeze.
If someone has figured a way around this, I'd love to hear it.
Post by: vonsch on July 29, 2014, 02:03:53 pm
Cool I'll give that a shot, thanks!
Unrelatedly... OMG this is killing me. I'm trying to build a wall, and there's two spots where construction keeps getting suspended. My mason walks over, stands on the spot where the wall should go, and suspends the construction due to a creature occupying the spot. The creature is himself! There's plenty of other spots he could stand and build it, but he insists on standing right where the wall should go.
Eh, fixed it by building a wall next to where I want it, deconstructing it and then building it again in the proper place. Stupid humies.
Sometimes D-O-R on the spot will fix it. Sometimes it's because a prior worker was interrupted and dropped the block on the spot. The dwarf (err, humie) walks into it to pick up the block, then rather than stepping back, tries to build it while there anyway... Of course, his feet are in the way. As Guthbug said, stop the construction (which drops the block outside the spot) and restart it. That combined with D-O-R has always worked for me.
D-O-R is also great when the silly dwarf (err, gnome... err, humie!) insists on standing on the cavern side of the wall so he can wall himself in with the head-snapping spiders or because he's feeling a real urge to fast. Or you can use the old start a wall on all the spots you don't want him to stand and suspend it, but then you have to come back eventually and remove those. You can forget the traffic designation and it won't result in a oops wall later. 8)
Post by: Fleeb on July 29, 2014, 02:04:43 pm
Post by: Meph on July 29, 2014, 02:15:09 pm
Also, water is a huge problem in freezing biomes if you don't have a cavern source.Brew drinks? Just because humans done need them, doesnt mean they wont use them.
Even with dfhack, I can't get a decent water source that doesn't freeze. Indoor water even in the basement of a building will freeze.
If someone has figured a way around this, I'd love to hear it.
Otherwise: Cavern lakes.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 02:16:39 pm
Yeah, I figured it wasn't a bug related to humans, just didn't know where better to vent my frustration :D
Vent on, brother. Vent on!
I just had this major epiphany for humans. I was out in the garden earlier thinking about what they lacked. It seemed to me that every other race had something special to them and humans just didn't have that.
Then it clicked when I came back in and sat down to play a bit ...
Trade.
Whatever you're missing, you can get. You just have to find some raw material to sell for it.
Looking at the economy though, it's borked. It doesn't appear to have any "Adam Smith" style value add.
For instance, buy silk cloth, turn it into a silk shirt and it's value increases dramatically over the original cloth. You have used labor to increase value (a basic economic principle) ... however it's not reflected in the merchant stalls because you can't sell the shirt for more coin!
I can hold the shirt until a caravan comes along and then sell it for the traditional "wealth" in a barter exchange, and use it to trade for gold bars. Then I can take those gold bars and mint gold coins with them, but unless I get much more than 3,000 sovereigns per gold bar, then I've lost money.
See the economic problem? (I'm a gardener and author of children's books, not an economist, so I can't guarantee I'm explaining the principle correctly.)
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 02:18:20 pm
Brew drinks? Just because humans done need them, doesnt mean they wont use them.
Otherwise: Cavern lakes.
They won't use them for some poor soul in the hospital. He requires water in a bucket. :(
Cavern lakes are my preferred method, but there's not always one on the first cavern level and I don't know that I can drill down to the second.
Post by: Meph on July 29, 2014, 02:19:32 pm
But Adam Smith like supply and demand (reactions prices that change) I cant do.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 02:32:50 pm
You can sell a silk shirt in at the clothing merchants.
But Adam Smith like supply and demand (reactions prices that change) I cant do.
Well, skip the demand and just look at the principle of labor value add.
1 hematite ore < 1 iron bar < 1 iron dagger
If I dig the iron ore out of the ground, it has a value of 500 shillings.
If I smelt the iron ore myself, using a piece of charcoal (1 log) and some human labor, then I should be able to sell the iron bar for (for instance) 500 sovereigns.
Then upwards of there would be the 3 iron bars + 1 charcoal which goes into an iron sword. How many sovereigns is that worth?
It's the same basic economic principle that makes the world go around. A piece of bologna is worth $0.10 and 2 pieces of bread is worth $0.25, but a sandwich costs you $5. :)
There is a base multiplier that goes into each "upgrade" of materials as the labor gets added to it. But the reverse seems to be true in this economy, which means humans are the worst businessmen in the history of the masterwork universe. :)
sell 4 iron bars nets 500 sovereigns.
Buy hematite ore costs 1500 sovereigns.
So unless smelting the ore nets you 12 iron bars, you are operating at a LOSS.
Simply: You cannot buy raw goods and turn them into finished goods for a profit within the human economy.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 02:41:38 pm
Buy 1 malachite bearing ore = 500 sovereigns
Run malachite bearing ore through ore processor and it produces 1 pure rock
Smelt pure rock and it creates 4 copper bars.
4 copper bars sold back to metal merchant = 500 sovereigns.
So all the extra time and labor the humans put into it is less worth than a sweat shop in Mumbai.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 03:10:49 pm
Weapon merchant ... to get a steel battle axe costs 4 steel vouchers at 2500 gold each.
That is 10,000 gold.
4 copper bars = 500 gold, so if I smelt 80 copper bars it is worth one steel battle axe.
Compare this to fishing.
3-4 fishermen consistently pulling fish out of the river nets me 500 gold on a fairly constant basis (if I eat no fish). You will have money coming out of your ears. Same with hunting if you can kill big things.
Selling crops is a complete waste of time. Each plant stack creates one seed which creates one new plant stack which then must be used to brew a drink for sale, consuming a barrel or pot in the process. You lose money selling agricultural products.
So a small fishing village by the sea, a lake, or river with its primary vocation being fishing will be ROLLING in gold while the village with access to underground gold deposits will be poor. :)
ETA:
Ok, checked the math before I posted. There DOES seem to be a way to generate income based on brewing.
If you buy plants, they come in stacks of 6 for 500 gold. Since the still will use a whole stack for a drink, you can't make a profit by selling that drink.
But if you produce seeds and then plant large fields of the stuff, you will get a stack from each set of seeds you planted, which can then make a large batch of alcohol to sell, and generate new seeds for a constant renewable source of income. It's harder than fishing, but if you paired it WITH fishing then you would be ROLLING in gold.
--- Theoretically, anyway. Needs some testing to see how the individual stacks are consumed.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 03:56:47 pm
Planted a strawberry field, disable strawberries for cooking. (Make sure your people have other forms of food so they don't eat your profits.)
At harvest time, rapidly turn it into strawberry wine and then forbid it so nobody drinks it. Store it in a different stockpile for ease of use. Once you have brewed all the strawberries, unforbid and quickly sell it all.
You will have all the seed you need to plant the fields again, plus plenty of wine to sell (even if someone drinks some). A sustainable and renewable resource which can be ramped up quickly by buying strawberries and strawberry seeds from caravans. The brewery extension would be a huge value add, allowing a village to quickly become the Milwaukee of its day. :)
Of course this is still very baseline agricultural economy and not what I would think humans would do in the high end. I think from looking at it, the sell prices for metal bars, clothing, and finished goods (non-smithing) need to be doubled over that of their raw material base cost. This simulates the labor value add and would even allow you to create a viable fortress/economy where you imported raw materials and turned them into export goods for trade.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 03:59:40 pm
Perhaps this is as intended, being indicative of nation-states.
Post by: Kiefatar on July 29, 2014, 04:28:28 pm
You can buy crates of cloth and leather pretty cheaply via bartering and turn them into gold fairly easily. Same with bartered booze and other food stuffs.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 04:43:53 pm
The inherent economic system sort of borks all human trading. When I can trade a food pot prepared by a master cook for half of everything the traders bought, it sort of makes everything else seem weak.
Post by: Guthbug on July 29, 2014, 08:49:35 pm
Right now I've got a small farming village producing alcohol (historically a very good trade good). The way I have it set up, we're pulling down a lot of gold and buying just about everything else we need.
ETA:
Embark with the farming profile, ate all the animals (except the egg layers, who consistently produce food without management).
Put down 4 garden plots of 5 X 5 (25 stacks).
Spam brew and create a drink tent to sell the booze.
Build stone tent and buy stone. (2 barrels of booze buys 10 stone which produces a TON of blocks).
Build a mega city.
That's really all there is to it.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 01:50:05 am
If not, I feel they should...
Edit:
And Meph, is there going to be a change to the whole "15 human barony" problem? Or the fact that merchants tend to call us "dwarves?" *didn't do a whole lot of touchy-feely trade stuff with the warlocks or orks that I've played*
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:33:27 am
The barony thing is not on purpose, but I think I keep it, because the "force diplomat" only works if you are a barony. This way you can directly use the council, and elves will come and ask about tree-cutting quotas.
Weapons and all other items that can be bought that have quality DO have quality which depends on the negotiation skill of the dwarf making the trade.
And before anyone asks: No, I cant make the quality of the weapon affect the result of the reactions, so a cheaply made iron sword sells for the same as a masterwork iron sword. ;)
Post by: Emperor on July 30, 2014, 04:08:06 am
Shortly after, they died of thirst and half of the town started throwing tantrums.
And it was going so well.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 08:41:46 am
The "dwarves" thing is hardcoded. If I change it, even dwarves wont be adressed as dwarves anymore.
The barony thing is not on purpose, but I think I keep it, because the "force diplomat" only works if you are a barony. This way you can directly use the council, and elves will come and ask about tree-cutting quotas.
Weapons and all other items that can be bought that have quality DO have quality which depends on the negotiation skill of the dwarf making the trade.
And before anyone asks: No, I cant make the quality of the weapon affect the result of the reactions, so a cheaply made iron sword sells for the same as a masterwork iron sword. ;)
I can handle the barony thing. From a thematic perspective, the emperor or king would want as many human settlements as possible, and he would want each one to have a noble who was appointed by him and loyal to him. Even if it's a sloven collection of huts and pig pens.
As to the other, are you saying that the higher a person's negotiation skill, the better of an item they're going to get from the stall for the same price?
Post by: Fleeb on July 30, 2014, 08:43:25 am
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 09:16:33 am
Quote
As to the other, are you saying that the higher a person's negotiation skill, the better of an item they're going to get from the stall for the same price?yes
Man, having an entirely above-ground settlement is hard. How do I keep all my wells from freezing in the winter? My wells are all inside buildings and the channels leading to them are covered.I dont know... Maybe I can figure something out.
I don't know if it's normal, but all children in the town suddenly became bugged, and stood there doing nothing.That sounds very odd, because children behaviour is not something I can affect. But I do remember a baby that died of thirst in my test forts... not sure if related.
Shortly after, they died of thirst and half of the town started throwing tantrums.
And it was going so well.
Post by: Emperor on July 30, 2014, 09:25:46 am
My guards managed to "calm" everyone, and the life goes on, but if this happens again, it will be the end of me.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 09:32:20 am
The problem I have with babies in human forts is that they get snatched a LOT if I haven't walled us in. The nearby goblin fort must have more human babies in it than it does goblins by now. This one family has had 4 babies snatched so far.
The last snatching ended weirdly. Goblin snatcher was detected way up by the village well. The militia followed him, embedding at least 10 wooden bolts into his body until he got to the gate. At that point, Snu-Snu the she-barbarian who stands guard there took off his head with her axe.
Where's the baby? He's not in a sack. He's not returned to his momma. He's no longer a member of the fort, it seems.
Post by: Emperor on July 30, 2014, 09:40:35 am
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 09:41:31 am
Oddly enough, one of the children managed to advance in terms of age (Baby -> Child) just before the others died, and started acting normally, and by normally i mean it began to eat and drink, and in the end - survived.Wait, you said children, not babies... babies never feed themselves, and dont walk... they are carried and fed by the mother.
My guards managed to "calm" everyone, and the life goes on, but if this happens again, it will be the end of me.
Post by: Emperor on July 30, 2014, 09:46:56 am
Wait, you said children, not babies... babies never feed themselves, and dont walk... they are carried and fed by the mother.
If it is as you say, then it might be result of causalities sustained during the orc siege. My apologizes.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 12:07:29 pm
Man, having an entirely above-ground settlement is hard. How do I keep all my wells from freezing in the winter? My wells are all inside buildings and the channels leading to them are covered.
Oh, that's easy. Make an underground "well room." Since water that is underground never freezes, you want a chamber that is entirely above ground (to avoid cave adaptation issues) save for a single square which is underground (where you put your well).
designate a channeled area, but leave one square in the middle unchanneled. When it's done, you should have a pit with a little mound in the middle. Then roof off the whole area INCLUDING the mound, building a staircase or something for accessibility. Finally, dig out the mound. Since it never "saw" sunlight, it is still "subterranean" You now have an underground room that won't cave-adapt your humies with a single tile where water won't freeze. Dig out your well on that square, leave a sizable cistern, and a floodgate to prevent flooding out the chamber (since it's below water level), and you'll have a nice little gathering hall.
I've been building above-ground forts for years, and this works like a charm.
Mind you, you need to get the water into the cistern in the first place, so you may have troubles in environments that are always frozen.
Some pictures if I wasn't clear...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Then, channel out the now underground square, stick in your cistern, plop the well on the hole there, and BOOM, a well that won't freeze in the wintertime.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry for the last one, I just couldn't resist showing off my awesome city. ^_^
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 12:11:32 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 12:13:38 pm
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 12:30:35 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 12:33:13 pm
Dig down into a hole, don't channel out the roof so it's still underground. Channel one hole in the floor and then a hole out underneath. Use dfhack liquids command to fill it with water. Use it as a well.
Water with "aboveground" will freeze, whether it's 30 levels down or 1 level down, but water in an underground room will not. And the humans go in, get a drink, clean off, then leave, so it's not a major issue with cave adaption. But it's problematic in that an underground well is not thematic.
Post by: Arcvasti on July 30, 2014, 12:34:59 pm
The workaround I used was the following:
Dig down into a hole, don't channel out the roof so it's still underground. Channel one hole in the floor and then a hole out underneath. Use dfhack liquids command to fill it with water. Use it as a well.
Water with "aboveground" will freeze, whether it's 30 levels down or 1 level down, but water in an underground room will not. And the humans go in, get a drink, clean off, then leave, so it's not a major issue with cave adaption. But it's problematic in that an underground well is not thematic.
Instead of DFhack, why don't you just use a bucket and a pond zone.
Post by: Emperor on July 30, 2014, 12:39:57 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 12:44:14 pm
The workaround I used was the following:
Dig down into a hole, don't channel out the roof so it's still underground. Channel one hole in the floor and then a hole out underneath. Use dfhack liquids command to fill it with water. Use it as a well.
Water with "aboveground" will freeze, whether it's 30 levels down or 1 level down, but water in an underground room will not. And the humans go in, get a drink, clean off, then leave, so it's not a major issue with cave adaption. But it's problematic in that an underground well is not thematic.
Instead of DFhack, why don't you just use a bucket and a pond zone.
You could, but only one person will try to fill it. You have to make like 10 different zones in order to get 10 different people to all haul water. And the water evaporates faster than one person can usually fill. It's just a weird game mechanics thing.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 01:40:31 pm
I've been using sort of a "Wild West" city layout with a main street and buildings along the side, but in a larger fort that becomes unmanageable. All storage is done underground in "basements".
Other designs I've tried:
Motte and Bailey (works well but gets very crowded very quickly)
Roman Villa (the buildings also form the walls)
Various castle designs (just haven't gotten this to work well so far)
Essentially, you need a place to create a burrow and run when an invasion strikes. I use a fortified tower for that purpose with dogs on a restraint outside so that the invaders will path to within musket range.
Right now I restarted and am working on an actual city. I have four districts planned and started and the city itself is sprawling out over 80% of the map. I have a dedicated military squad with ranged weapons who follow a patrol route around the city perimeter and eliminate wildlife. No hunters needed.
I have not been able to efficiently use guild halls and merchant stalls before this city. I kept trying to have a "market" where all the stalls were located, but they were too far from their respective needs and sell items.
This time, I have divided the city into 4 districts: agricultural, smithing, tailoring, and government. The city is arranged around a central fortified tower (3 levels). There are no exterior walls. This design is working much better and I'm about to start paving all the grassy areas within the city limits. It is modeled after the Hanseatic League city "Lubeck".
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 01:44:16 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 01:47:25 pm
Lübeck is pretty ugly, if I may say so.
Never been there, but I found an old map of it from when it was dominated by merchant guilds so I thought it'd work pretty good as a base design. :)
I haven't seen much of big European cities. I've seen Middle Eastern cities, American cities, and Central and South American cities but not much of European, and none of the Asiatic nations.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 01:48:14 pm
moseythepirate: Wouldnt the water in the bucket freeze instantly? human goes to well, fills bucket, stands on "aboveground" tile, water frozen?
Really? I can't say I've noticed, though admittedly that that particular fort is in a tropical environ, and I never needed to worry about cave adaptation in my previous aboveground forts. And easy fix, though. Just make the adjacent tiles underground too. BA BAM. Water liquid, human hydrated, and they won't stick around long enough to be cave adapted.
In regards to balance, I think that fish need to have a lower value. That fort there has an embark on a river, and with three food shops working full time selling it, I have pretty much infinite money, and am still catching fish faster than I can sell them. Fish being a limitless source of money is fine (I don't see how that could be changed, anyway), but they should be cheaper.
Also, just as a comment, it seems like the Orc merchant is really useful...I've been able to outfit my squad with full Ashland Glass and Ebonglass armor and weapons, with my Master Armorer and Legendary Weaponsmith courtesy of the Dwarf Teacher. Admittedly, when I can't just make infinite licenses, the balance will change significantly.
I also love, love LOVE the guildhouse system, but the building is ENORMOUS, especially if you make the extensions attached (as seems intended). Since I'll be needing a lot of them, and I can't remove them without losing my investments, you end up building a lot of the guildhouses, each one of which is gigantic. Since each town is topside, space is at a premium, and this quickly becomes a sizable problem. I feel and easy solution is to make the guildhouse and extensions smaller. Maybe 5X5 for the guildhouse and 5x3 or 5x2 for the expansions.
Additionally, I can't seem to order Crates of Goodies from my own human caravans...I can only assume they haven't been implemented yet, but it's kind of weird to have a crate-opening extension for the humans they can only use when buying from foreigners.
Finally, a combat guild like the dwarf legionnaires would be appreciated. Because you spend so much time building, it can be difficult to get an early-game militia going, and the skill boost of a combat guild would be a huge help. If I might make a recommendation to my fellow human players out there, I would recommend taking some skills away from the original seven so you could make two of them competent and reasonably equipped militia. You can always train up your fellows at the University, and if you get attacked by dire crocodiles or something before you get a wall up, you won't have the luxury of a door to close.
All in all, I'm having a ton of fun with the humans. But like Guthbug said, they require a lot of planning. Protip: Tenement housing is your friend. In my screenshots in my previous post, to the left of my example wellhole (which Meph promptly torpedoed. Remember, make those well-adjacent tiles underground too!) you can see my tenement. I channeled out those rooms, roofed them over, and then used the Box select for Constructing Walls to fill in the gaps. Then, you can roof the next floor off, and so on. An easily built apartment building that can be made taller in a snap. Maybe I'll post a tutorial or something, it really is a neat trick.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 02:02:09 pm
I would second that fish issue. It's sort of unbalancing. If you doubled or tripled the number in one reaction (from 6 to 18) then it might seem more fair. However in terms of realism, fish are a huge export item. Fish are 40% of Iceland's GDP. :)
And in a human civilization with large armies, salted fish would of course be a staple. An army marches on its stomach, and many human cities would undoubtedly exist near these bodies of water.
Fishing is also only going to be viable in areas near flowing water. Basic vanilla DF has as a bug (or feature) the fact that fish do not respawn in still waters, and I assume MDF has the same issue.
Building upwards helps a lot, but that still takes a lot of space. Plus, you run into an issue that just bugs the heck out of me ... I can't see everything that's going on at the same time. I normally build my underground forts in such a way that I can see everything important happening on one level.
I built an inverted ziggurat channeling downwards and just covered up the open areas with a tile floor. Even though the humans were 6 levels underground, they still felt ok about it because all of the roofs above them were constructed.
A very large and prosperous city could quickly end up taking up all of the map on a standard 3x3.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 02:10:30 pm
I can build a pretty decent castle, but all of the industry and agriculture has to be outside. Can't find room for it within.
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:13:24 pm
The guilds are already downsized from the 11x11 dwarven guilds to 7x7 human guilds. I wont redo the design. That would take at least 10 hours of work. Its over 100 buildings.
Good thinking on the fish, I will make it produce less money.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 02:23:37 pm
That would take at least 10 hours of work. Its over 100 buildings.Oh. I will maintain that they are too big, but that's understandable. That said, I do have some more thoughts to manage the size.
If you build the guildhouse and each extension, you'll note that there are 3x3 empty spaces on the corners. Perfect for putting associated workshops. So one could make a big building, with an entrance and stairway on one corner, and workshops related to the guild on the other corners. It could have a stockpile basement, and the floors above dedicated to apartments for your workers or simply more guildhouses, all stacked on each other. A Skyscraper of guildhouses!
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 30, 2014, 02:29:17 pm
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:30:15 pm
And the water issue is resolved. Stills can now be build next to water, and it takes water to fill buckets (for hostitals) or barrels (for your drink stockpile). It took a script by IndigoFenix, altered by Roses, proofread by Milo Christiansen and tested by me, but hey... nothing is too hard to bring you guys something as complex and difficult as "put water in barrel". :D
But seriously, you can now queue up 50 "fill barrel with water" reactions, stockpile it for sieges.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 02:33:04 pm
I tend to do 3 story buildings with a basement, so that gets me 4. I have a macro that builds the same building each time. I just have to make sure I have the right amount of materials. Tower1, tower2, tower3, and tower4 all build differing levels of the same tower. The only problem is you have to sometimes go in and touch up the corners or spots where they suspended for some reason.
Just now, rattlesnake men were in my bank for some reason. (A central basement under the tower where I store all the coins.) They killed the guy who found them, and then ran out the gate. Of course Snu-Snu the only gateguard just happened to be sleeping back in her room. This is what I get for hiring a barbarian.
I have noticed also that when you sell drinks at the drink merchant stall, he doesn't take the barrels or pots. Is he just pouring them into a big vat or what? :)
I've noticed that he also buys for full price lots of drink containers that have 2 or 3 instead of the full 5. It seems my haulers like to sample the wares. :)
I won't say humans are more fun than the other races, at least not in the current stage of development, but dang if they aren't addicting as all get out ... trying to get a good village layout which can be expandable, plus finding a basic economy. Plus, I end up much more attached to my village church or inn than I normally do about an entire fortress underground. I have a macro for a 5 story "Prancing Pony Inn" that I just love. It needs to be broken up into pieces though. It takes up a huge portion of the center of the map, and requires about 4,000 planks or blocks to build.
I'm not sure my computer can handle much more than a 3x3 map. I generally have to play with sub 50 population numbers as it is just to get past the 10th year.
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 30, 2014, 02:33:45 pm
So one could make a big building, with an entrance and stairway on one corner, and workshops related to the guild on the other corners. It could have a stockpile basement, and the floors above dedicated to apartments for your workers or simply more guildhouses, all stacked on each other. A Skyscraper of guildhouses!
although i never got that far in my game, i completely agree, and had planned to build an epic guildhouse in which to put the pinnacle of human achievement, the guilds are balanced in my opinion
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:34:24 pm
One comment i have, which may not be able to e easily changed is that humans seem to be rather old for the time.... my fort had the youngest mother as 27, and the oldest as 56!? the fort only lasted 3 years, before it fell to save corruption, but the babies never turned to children.... based on my idea of medieval society, most women were getting married at 14-16 and having 8-9 kids.... it seems to me like baies should turn to children at age 2-3 and children to adults at age 12-13.... besides that, i had a few generic alpha bugs (save got corrupted, dont know why) and i kept trying to set up foreign human gun merchants, which didn't work because i didn't have the license, but all my worshos spawned succubus summoners?Children grow up when they are 5. Marriages happen when they are idle a lot, if they have no friends/lovers, you get no marriages, and no kids... but usually its 1 kid at a time, I know for a fact that people wont appreciate being flooded with babies...
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:38:52 pm
Quote
I won't say humans are more fun than the other races, at least not in the current stage of developmentWell, there is not that much more to come. One "knights order" or so for military guilds... the last 3 racial workshops I have to finish, some music for the tavern, and 4 guild extensions that arent done yet. And thats pretty much it. Rest is just fluff, if people suggest content I can put it in, but what you see is what you get. Aboveground humans with trading and guilds. Thats the two big features they have.
Maybe I find the time for this racial split into Northerners, Easterners, Southerners and Westerners, but that is only renaming, different graphics etc. Not sure how much unique content I can write for those.
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 30, 2014, 02:39:33 pm
Children grow up when they are 5. Marriages happen when they are idle a lot, if they have no friends/lovers, you get no marriages, and no kids... but usually its 1 kid at a time, I know for a fact that people wont appreciate being flooded with babies...
cool, i didn't have any children, only babies, and was wondering why i had a 90 year old woman get attacked by a bear, and still alive?!
thanks for the imput, obviously you've been doing this a lot longer than me... love the mod, can't wait to see humans in their final iteration!!!
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 02:50:01 pm
i kept trying to set up foreign human gun merchants, which didn't work because i didn't have the license, but all my worshos spawned succubus summoners?Well, for me at least, Workshops will automatically queue the Rent to Whoever reactions if you have the license for it. For some reason Succubi Summoners happen to be queued first. If you go in there and select it manually you should get the dude you want. Of course, then you'll hit the minor detail that the Human Gunsmith doesn't have any reactions. Presumably they are one of the 6 unfinished buildings.
Was it intended for the Workshops to automatically queue up? It might just be me, since it didn't do when I tried just now, but it definitely happened earlier. If it is intentional, I would recommend against it.
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 02:59:10 pm
I'll check the automatic thing.
Post by: Fleeb on July 30, 2014, 02:59:41 pm
Man, having an entirely above-ground settlement is hard. How do I keep all my wells from freezing in the winter? My wells are all inside buildings and the channels leading to them are covered.
Oh, that's easy. Make an underground "well room." Since water that is underground never freezes, you want a chamber that is entirely above ground (to avoid cave adaptation issues) save for a single square which is underground (where you put your well).
designate a channeled area, but leave one square in the middle unchanneled. When it's done, you should have a pit with a little mound in the middle. Then roof off the whole area INCLUDING the mound, building a staircase or something for accessibility. Finally, dig out the mound. Since it never "saw" sunlight, it is still "subterranean" You now have an underground room that won't cave-adapt your humies with a single tile where water won't freeze. Dig out your well on that square, leave a sizable cistern, and a floodgate to prevent flooding out the chamber (since it's below water level), and you'll have a nice little gathering hall.
I've been building above-ground forts for years, and this works like a charm.
Mind you, you need to get the water into the cistern in the first place, so you may have troubles in environments that are always frozen.
Some pictures if I wasn't clear...Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then, channel out the now underground square, stick in your cistern, plop the well on the hole there, and BOOM, a well that won't freeze in the wintertime.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry for the last one, I just couldn't resist showing off my awesome city. ^_^
Iiiiinteresting, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 03:07:09 pm
Meph noted that you should make the squares adjacent to the well underground too, to keep it liquid while going to your thirsty dwar-er...human's lips, and it won't help your hospital, but it'll keep your Humans hydrated.Man, having an entirely above-ground settlement is hard. How do I keep all my wells from freezing in the winter? My wells are all inside buildings and the channels leading to them are covered.
Oh, that's easy. Make an underground "well room." Since water that is underground never freezes, you want a chamber that is entirely above ground (to avoid cave adaptation issues) save for a single square which is underground (where you put your well).
designate a channeled area, but leave one square in the middle unchanneled. When it's done, you should have a pit with a little mound in the middle. Then roof off the whole area INCLUDING the mound, building a staircase or something for accessibility. Finally, dig out the mound. Since it never "saw" sunlight, it is still "subterranean" You now have an underground room that won't cave-adapt your humies with a single tile where water won't freeze. Dig out your well on that square, leave a sizable cistern, and a floodgate to prevent flooding out the chamber (since it's below water level), and you'll have a nice little gathering hall.
I've been building above-ground forts for years, and this works like a charm.
Mind you, you need to get the water into the cistern in the first place, so you may have troubles in environments that are always frozen.
Some pictures if I wasn't clear...Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then, channel out the now underground square, stick in your cistern, plop the well on the hole there, and BOOM, a well that won't freeze in the wintertime.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry for the last one, I just couldn't resist showing off my awesome city. ^_^
Iiiiinteresting, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 03:11:12 pm
Code: [Select]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_SUCCUBUS4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_DROW4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_ORC4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_GOBLIN4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_HUMAN4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_ELF4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_DWARF4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_GNOME4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_WARLOCK4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_KOBOLD4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
These were missing. All 10 racial workshops, if rented for 1 year, would queue up all possible race choices. I will gen a new world to make sure, but I think it only happened to you on workshops and year, correct?
workshop, season. merchant, season. merchant, year... these three options should have been fine. Can you confirm this? (Even the seasonal one would queue up 1 seasonal "moving in" and 10 yearly "moving in". I think I got it. Was just one set of tools missing)
Post by: moseythepirate on July 30, 2014, 03:16:01 pm
I think I found the issue:Code: [Select]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_SUCCUBUS4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_DROW4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_ORC4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_GOBLIN4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_HUMAN4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_ELF4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_DWARF4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_GNOME4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_WARLOCK4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WORKSHOP_DUMMY_KOBOLD4]
[NAME:licence:licences][VALUE:0] [SIZE:1] [MATERIAL_SIZE:1] [UNIMPROVABLE][TILE:235]
These were missing. All 10 racial workshops, if rented for 1 year, would queue up all possible race choices. I will gen a new world to make sure, but I think it only happened to you on workshops and year, correct?
workshop, season. merchant, season. merchant, year... these three options should have been fine. Can you confirm this? (Even the seasonal one would queue up 1 seasonal "moving in" and 10 yearly "moving in". I think I got it. Was just one set of tools missing)
I didn't test all 40 reactions, but that seems correct. Year didn't work, season did.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 03:45:06 pm
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 30, 2014, 03:58:26 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 03:59:53 pm
Human's living in caves? madness!!!! next you'll be telling me we use rocks for weapons and hunt wooley mamoths.... jk lolz i love the challenge of building a sprawling metropolis!!!
Heh. No, but I'd like to be able to dig out vast mines without worrying about my miners going crazy down there. :)
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 04:04:46 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 04:15:58 pm
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 04:20:12 pm
Can only be done with the pick, or not at all. Even if I would use a helm "clothing" item, which is not armor but clothing, like the hood, you couldnt specific which human should wear it.
Post by: Samarkand on July 30, 2014, 04:22:41 pm
Impossible. Helmets are assigned in a military uniform, which clashes with the mining "uniform", which constists of a pick. Same with hunters and woodcutter btw, never have any of these three labors on your soldiers.Would this be a good time to bring up my earlier cutebold torchbearer suggestion?
Can only be done with the pick, or not at all. Even if I would use a helm "clothing" item, which is not armor but clothing, like the hood, you couldnt specific which human should wear it.
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 04:25:25 pm
Except if I do 1 pet-race version for all 10 races. Kobold torchbearer, goblin fisher, orc warrior, warlock necromancer, succubus fireball-throwing dudette, and so on.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 04:29:38 pm
Impossible. Helmets are assigned in a military uniform, which clashes with the mining "uniform", which constists of a pick. Same with hunters and woodcutter btw, never have any of these three labors on your soldiers.
Can only be done with the pick, or not at all. Even if I would use a helm "clothing" item, which is not armor but clothing, like the hood, you couldnt specific which human should wear it.
Ah. The same problem I run into when playing gnomes and I want to equip my non-military citizens with the nifty inventions.
Some sort of specialized miner's pick then would work. If it's even a real problem. I don't know that it is. So far I've mined out significant areas underground to pull up ore and I haven't had issues.
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 04:46:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/9bXVPTZ.png)
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
Starting with a couple of muskets would make life infinitely better.
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 05:13:39 pm
I made two more embark profiles, Cannoneers and Masons. One for early cannons, bringing 2 and some iron for ammo, and the other one with 200 boulders and lots of masonry/stonecraft skill for early constructions.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 05:39:31 pm
Muskets are expensive. Try bows/crossbows instead.
I made two more embark profiles, Cannoneers and Masons. One for early cannons, bringing 2 and some iron for ammo, and the other one with 200 boulders and lots of masonry/stonecraft skill for early constructions.
Those are good choices. Why is it humans can't build bows? I've checked the forge and the bow workshop and it's not available in either. Only crossbows.
I typically arm EVERY adult in a fort and give the non-active members at least leather armor and some sort of projectile weapon. It just helps keep them safer.
Any ideas for dual weapons? Pistol and sword corsair style?
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 05:42:37 pm
How about 2 buildings for the military side: One more knight/medieval, the other more muskets/empire.
I would take the 11x11 military garrison from the dwarves for the musket/empire design, and it offer guard training, which is a caste transformation, as well as trains musket skills and has the alarm siren reaction.
The knight/medieval one would be the "hall of knights", also 11x11. The large size in on purpose, you should only build 1 each. It can turn humans into squires and later into knights, maybe even paladins with some anti-undead stuff. Also works with transformation, and could give access to moonsilver/shadesilver that way.
Thats the design:
(http://i.imgur.com/oLdTTLx.png)
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 05:47:10 pm
Post by: Meph on July 30, 2014, 05:51:23 pm
Post by: Arcvasti on July 30, 2014, 06:28:15 pm
No. In short. I could make some, but they would have to be creatures, not buildings. Or a digger item which is "pick and lamp", that would also work.
Kobold torchbearers were mentioned at some point.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 06:42:01 pm
Its horribly western though. So if indeed I make some vikings, arabs and romans, these will have to change for sure. The trade and guilds are such an integral part that I cant touch them, it would be way too much work across four civs.
It's a western civilization. It might be interesting to rework humans as multiple civs with different style buildings later on (particularly since they could fight each other) but there's not a one flavor fits all type deal.
All of modern fantasy is largely western themed, so I don't know how you'd avoid it unless you'd explicitly started out to in the beginning.
And some suspension of belief is to be expected on the player's behalf. If the caste says "knight" and I am building a Japanese-style city, then it's just understood that it's not a knight but rather a samurai in my head.
When I play dwarves, I do not feel that magic fits the theme of dwarves, so I never build any of the magic buildings. :) If it bothers the player too much that it's a Renaissance-style knight and not a Mameluke, a samurai, or a Zulu warrior ... then they'll just skip the building.
There are certain things in all of the races that bug me, and I just go edit the raws to reflect my particular taste. :) You'd be shocked and horrified to see what I did to your warlocks.
Post by: MDFification on July 30, 2014, 10:01:45 pm
I'm not sure my computer can handle much more than a 3x3 map. I generally have to play with sub 50 population numbers as it is just to get past the 10th year.
A simple way of getting around this (probably a recommendation to all human players) is to gen a world with only one cavern layer. It massively reduces the FPS drop as map size increases, but plants/animals/trade goods reliant on the caverns will still for the most part be available. If you're not digging to the caverns anyway, there's no point in keeping the extra ones - they're just a source of FPS lowering from beasts and pathfinding.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 10:03:25 pm
It might let me squeeze out to a slightly bigger world and give me more options.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 10:53:11 pm
My militia commander ended up crippled due to a run in with a rhino. He had to walk with a crutch. His squad was assigned all muskets, but he could no longer wield one due to his crutch. So I assigned him a pistol and he uses it just fine. No ammo change required. Same bullets. That is a HUGE micromanagement issue solved.
Post by: Guthbug on July 30, 2014, 11:57:00 pm
I have a small hunting camp of about 27 humans. 6 of them are in a military squad, armed with muskets. Two of them have steel halberds. The musketmen wound the prey and the halberdiers finish it off. Pretty easy. We made short work of the succubus ambush we've had so far.
Have a handful of tents set up to trade goods. Can get pretty much whatever we need. We're not really producing much but meat and tuber beer, but that keeps our military going.
Post by: Blightedmarsh on July 31, 2014, 12:03:27 am
As to other military guilds; are you aware of the existence of fencing guilds? Organizations like the Marxbrüders and the Federfechter where very important in late medieval Germany and where granted an official monopoly on "mastery of the sword".
One last thing is people also used to make wooden cannons. They where as dangerous and as primitive as they sound and had a nasty tendency to burst...like most early cannons really only more disposable.
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 12:59:56 am
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 31, 2014, 01:50:52 am
I've also started a fortress trying the viking thing (living on a glacier with very few trees) i'm using the timber block to conserve wood as best as possible, but since i am trying to build as much as possible before the FUN starts, my people are all super unhappy because they are caught in the weather.... seeing as humans don't live underground and are probably more adapted to surface weather than dwarves, i was wondering if there was something you could do to make that less likely... although to be far, living in a constant blizzard would suck, and i'd be pissed too.
wellp... yet again the bears killed me.... i tried to build too much in too little time, got sieged withought a military, andafter recovering enough to start my wall..... bears
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 04:14:14 am
Post by: LMeire on July 31, 2014, 04:37:36 am
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 05:05:57 am
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 31, 2014, 06:03:17 am
no complaints though... bears are uncomfortably currious (realistically so) in human fort (haven't played enough with the other civs to ever come across them)
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 06:31:02 am
Garrions => Marskmen (better musketeers) and Guard (better shield/armor) training. Also trains ranged combat skills and has siren to wake up sleeper/stop parties.
Hall of Knights => Become Squire (no combat boost) => After 1 year automatically turn to => Knight (combat boosts and skills) => After 3 years automatically turn to => Paladin (more boosts and minor good spells, mostly against undead).
Thoughts?
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 06:50:34 am
Did i messed up something again, or...I don't know. The thing is, everytime i change my tileset and launch the game, an error "Phoebus 16x16 art not found" ( or something like that) pops up. It's...Irritating.Run the settings as admin.
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 07:51:32 am
Run the settings as admin.
Well...That didn't worked. I figured out my Phoebus16x16.png turned to a file that i can not open anymore, and it's size reduced to few kilobytes - a most likely corrupted file.
I replaced the file with a new one, extracted from the folder containing previous version of Masterwork, and it did the trick.
As for the garrison idea - looks promising, i look forward to trying. Any chance to get our hands on a newer version, with all the fixed workshops, cannons, etc?
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 07:53:16 am
I wrote splinterz about the .png error, because I tested and can replicate the issue. Lets hope that he can find a solution. Manually copying does work though.
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 08:19:39 am
My question is - does it also affect megabeasts, and mobs like Frost Giants? Entirely mutilating a giant, who is 25 times bigger than a dwarf seems...Unrealistic.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 08:21:29 am
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 08:29:01 am
What about making different types of bullets? Musketeers shooting bullets covered in poison could make them more deadly. Or, perhaps, bullets blessed by the paladins to make them effective against undead? There are many possibilities.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 08:30:31 am
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 08:31:47 am
I'm just throwing random ideas - you do not must do it all, or even read it.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 10:38:55 am
A kobold thief evaded an entire squad of crack riflemen because his silk cloak kept deflecting all of the bullets. Finally, out of ammo, the commander stepped forward and clubbed him to death with his rifle.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 12:13:10 pm
Now we embarked in a tundra that has a lot of iron and gold. We're attempting to set up a mining town. It's rough. Unprocessed ore is not worth very much to the stall merchants, though good quality armor and weapons are worth a lot to the caravans. We may end up in a situation where we process the metal, sell to caravans for raw resources, and then sell raw resources to the stall economy.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 12:26:24 pm
Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.
Post by: moseythepirate on July 31, 2014, 12:28:30 pm
Metal stall is way out of whack.
Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.
I concur. In my opinion, the true path to "human-ness" isn't mining materials for your craftsmen, but selling them to pay OTHER races craftsmen.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 12:47:00 pm
Metal stall is way out of whack.
Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.
I concur. In my opinion, the true path to "human-ness" isn't mining materials for your craftsmen, but selling them to pay OTHER races craftsmen.
That's my understanding of the human theme as well. It's all about economics as opposed to the eudaimonia of perfect craftsmanship of the dwarves, or the oneness of nature with the elves.
There are certain basic goods which form a starter economy and would be needful in any fort in any environment:
1. Agricultural - meat (fish), hides, plants, food, alcohol, lumber
2. Ores - raw ores, processed bars, potentially stone, but certainly lignite, peat, anthracite should be highly valuable. gems should be worth a lot, lot more
3. processed goods - clothing, armor, weapons
I think the agricultural has been tweaked to a pretty good balance now. Meat is definitely appropriate, fish is still good but it's more appropriate to reflect the proper labor cost. Plants are near balanced, though some distinction should be made between above ground and underground crops, with underground being more valuable. I haven't figured out how to sell cooked food (if you even can) and alcohol is a great money-maker if you are in a biome where you can farm.
Ores and bars are not at all yet balanced. With the numbers the way they are now, there would be no "in theme" reason for the human race to ever expand outside of the fertile biomes. Humans will endure all sorts of hardships to create a settlement in a gold-rich area, or silver, or even iron. Even copper is worth a lot, and since those are non-renewable resources on any map, they should be a lot more valuable than the renewable resources like meat, fish, and plants.
I would suggest the following:
2 copper/lead/tin unprocessed ores sell for 500 sovereigns
1 iron sells for 500
1 silver sells for 1000
1 gold sells for 1500
Processed into bars, they sell for a lot more:
1 copper/lead/tin bar for 500
1 iron for 1000
1 silver for 1500
1 gold for 2500
Marble stone is dang near perfect, but I'd cut the number in half. 2 marble stones for 500. Marble is the stone of kings and mighty palaces are built out of it.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 12:53:34 pm
All of the foreign weapon stalls (humans, warlocks, and goblins I've looked at so far) sell complete armor sets in various materials. The local weapon/armor stalls operate on a voucher system which is confusing until you understand it, and then when you understand it you wonder why you would bother. It is vastly better to make weapons and armor with which to buy stuff from the caravans, which can then be sold to get the sovereigns you need.
I suppose they're useful if you buy vouchers and then get enough of them to get that specific thing you wanted, but it's vastly easier just to set up a metal merchant and a smith and craft that item yourself.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 12:59:42 pm
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Lets say you mine 1 metal vein, with 100 tiles. Thats 25 pieces of ore, which gives you 100 bars of metal. 100 iron bars, if you sell them, are worth 12.500 gold atm. 100 gold bars if minted into coins would be 50.000, four times the worth. I think that these prices fit.
The voucher system is pretty good to get rid of goblinite or change items. Get rid of 50 iron bows you dont need, buy iron bullets with it. (which I have to rebalance) But yes, the finished items are very expensive. BUT you dont need the foreign caravans to sell you licences first. ;)
Your water froze, because the one tile under the well was tagged "aboveground". ;)
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 01:16:21 pm
I would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins. :)
As it stands, I don't think creating a mining settlement is worthwhile at all. I just abandoned mine due to the hardships involved. I'll just buy the metal I need from a stall and leave mining and forging to the dwarves.
Looked at the clothing merchant ... numbers look good if you buy cloth from caravans and then tailor it into clothes yourself. If you had to process it from rope reed or wool yarn on your own, yeesh, that would be a nightmare of micromanagement for not much gain. But that's the way it is with the other races as well ... I generally don't bother to ever create a farm for threads (even silk) because one high quality shirt will pay for an entire bin of expensive cloth.
Wood merchant isn't working. Dunno if that just hasn't been done yet or if it's in error. I'm clearly not good at reading the notes. :)
Gems ... one of the most valuable substances known to man but the game doesn't reflect that. (Never has. Even in vanilla. A nice silk shirt is worth 5 times that of a flawlessly cut diamond.)
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 01:19:42 pm
Quote
I would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins. :)Impossible, its hardcoded. 500 = 1 bar.
Gem values can be raised, but obviously that would affect all races... or do you mean the gold coin costs in the merchant stalls?
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 01:29:06 pm
Wood merchant is working fine on my end. What part doesnt work?QuoteI would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins. :)Impossible, its hardcoded. 500 = 1 bar.
Gem values can be raised, but obviously that would affect all races... or do you mean the gold coin costs in the merchant stalls?
It wouldn't set one up. I deconstructed the stall and tried again and it wouldn't construct any of the shops. I'm not sure what's wrong there but it seems to be limited to that saved game and only after the reload.
When I mention value in the human testing, I'm specifically talking about the exchange for sovereigns. So I'm talking about the exchange for sovereigns for gems. Seems low.
The number of gold coins is hardcoded in the vanilla forge workshop, but for your special engineer coin mint that is the north extension of the engineer's guild? I haven't built that one yet so I don't know what it's creation rate is.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 01:34:29 pm
Can you send me the save with the workshops not changing? Or did that issue resolve itself?
Post by: Emperor on July 31, 2014, 01:34:57 pm
What about Humans? Will their king have a special...activity? Conquest, or perhaps trade missions?
Post by: Kiefatar on July 31, 2014, 01:41:10 pm
Post by: Megaman_zx on July 31, 2014, 01:48:41 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 02:03:25 pm
If I lower the amount of coins you get in the mint, people would just forge the coins instead.
Can you send me the save with the workshops not changing? Or did that issue resolve itself?
Let me make a mint and see what it actually produces before I comment more on that. :) There's still a crapload of things I haven't tested yet, such as the altar and whatnot.
I already deleted all those saves, but I will see if it happens again.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 02:20:05 pm
Warlocks have minion-raids. Orc have corsair-raids. Not sure about other races, because i haven't played them yet.No.
What about Humans? Will their king have a special...activity? Conquest, or perhaps trade missions?
I haven't been able to save a human fort, or start a new one on an existing map. I've had quite a few bugs with the .2 release. It's far less stable than other MW releases it seems.Say what again? You cant save? What happens?
Post by: Kiefatar on July 31, 2014, 03:14:19 pm
Actually, when I went to start the .2 Human Fort release I first have to fix a graphics issue. The 16x16 Phoebus graphics were mislabeled (png not jpg or something). Not a big issue, just grab the file from one of the 5.10 MW releases, but still.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 03:18:21 pm
The graphics issue is fixed now, I just havent uploaded it yet. Splinterz just send me the fix an hour ago.
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 03:19:15 pm
http://i.imgur.com/it1ddOK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/it1ddOK.jpg)
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 03:38:33 pm
Warning: Extremely large image. Contains all modded buildings humans have access to. I plan to make a flowchart with it. Its quite amazing seeing the scope of this thing. :)
http://i.imgur.com/it1ddOK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/it1ddOK.jpg)
That's so crazy. :) It NEEDS a flowchart.
When you first embark with humans, you see the limited structures they can build and you think they're weaker and less complex than all the other races, but very quickly in an image map like that you can see how complex they really are.
Meph, why don't you go write these 2,000 words on phytohormone auxins in vascular plant systems and I'll spend the rest of the day playing? :)
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 03:43:49 pm
Post by: Kiefatar on July 31, 2014, 03:52:28 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 03:54:35 pm
Are these indole-3-acetic acid phytohormones you are talking about? Sure thing, can do. :)
Yes. But make it funny for a children's story. The acetic acid phytohormones have to have a fun adventure! :)
My wife is now actually encouraging me to play DF. I have to write 2100 words per day to stay on schedule for the September release, and it seems when I take a break to play DF, my days are more productive. :)
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 03:56:38 pm
Rather... just package it up and re-release the humans... I'd love to see some of these new changes and fixes. Maybe it will fix my attempts to play... but we'll see.I just posted a realase... V.03. Today.
Guthbug: Good luck. ^^ My productive days are filled with producing DF, not playing it. :P
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 04:14:52 pm
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 04:29:50 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 04:50:09 pm
Also leaves line of sight to invaders, which scare your civilians and lifestock, and shoot arrows/bolts across your moats. ;D
Easily resolved. :)
In those sorts of villages, there are no "civilians". Everyone is in the militia of some sort and usually has a bone or wood crossbow.
It's primitive in a Gaelic sort of way.
If I have plenty of resources and want to build a big ol' thing, I will generally put up a motte and bailey early on, with the bailey a designated burrow for the civies to run into.
Post by: Nuhaine on July 31, 2014, 05:38:40 pm
@Top Left of Fort: http://i.imgur.com/MhAYakk.png
I also use trenches. I was able to come up with a design that allows me to fit 6 guilds in a relatively small area, and build upwards as needed. It also doesn't look too shabby. The trenches are nice because you can lay out foundations, while eliminating LOS to invaders until they get close.
Interior: http://i.imgur.com/1IVUk9V.png
I'll try and spew some feedback soon.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 05:52:48 pm
Post by: Nuhaine on July 31, 2014, 06:06:18 pm
Also, the trading for Obsidian boulders reaction says (5), but I receive 10 for running the reaction.
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 07:56:22 pm
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2014, 08:05:37 pm
Post by: Guthbug on July 31, 2014, 08:12:25 pm
I have no idea about stockpiling water. It should be a drink.
Doesn't seem to be under plant or animal drinks. I'll keep looking. It's ending up in the stockpile, but not sure how.
I see we went back to bows instead of crossbows. I like that better.
Post by: LMeire on July 31, 2014, 08:17:21 pm
Earlier I suggested digging in frozen oceans for well-lit housing and storage space; well, don't try to dig a quarry like that. As it turns out, the game apparently only thinks of natural ice ceilings being transparent/translucent if the z-level to be lit is above sea-level, anything below will cause your miners to get dizzy as if the transparent ceiling above were made of solid rock.
Post by: Emperor on August 01, 2014, 09:16:20 am
The idea is to make only one, but relatively huge, civilization of humans per region/island. Only then the warcries will have any sense.
Post by: Guthbug on August 01, 2014, 01:27:26 pm
I've experimented with different aboveground city designs from simple fishing villages to large map sprawling vistas.
They're pretty cool, but I can't help but feel like something is missing. Some exploration thing that would keep me playing humans, or some high end development thing, or whatever. Am I the only one who feels that way? There's a pretty good sense of achievement from an aboveground town, since it's a lot harder than an underground fort, but I don't know if that's enough flavor to really draw my interest long term.
The warlocks have a huge number of spells and skills to keep toying with, so that is their draw.
Dwarves just get very dwarfy with their crafting, the high end buildings, machines, etc.
Gnomes are sort of in line with dwarves, but experimenting with interesting fort designs is a lot of fun.
Orcs have the raiding "slot machine" to keep your attention virtually forever.
Kobolds are just dang hard and that makes them interesting in a tribal sort of way.
Succubus I haven't spent enough time with, but they seem like a "living" sort of evil race ... similar to warlocks but more alive.
What is the grand vision of humans to fit into that? They're cool, very polished and extremely well-done with a complex economy, but as a preference thing, I think I'd find myself spending time with the other races more.
Some magic ability might improve their replay value. Or some sort of mission to them. Maybe a way to send out trade caravans.
I'm just not sure. Sorry, Meph, if this comes across too much like criticism. I know you've spent a lot of time on this. It's a great ice cream sundae, but I think we're still missing the cherry on top.
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2014, 02:34:22 pm
An issue with the mod, at least from my point of view, is that people might play dwarves all the time, and completely ignore the other races. Maybe because they are too difficult, too different, or simply to unkown. Humans should be easy to get into and offer a view into all other races. You have 20 workshops that offer glimpses into the pets, items, materials and special features of 10 other races.
Be it succubi summons, warlock spells and zombies, gnomish gadgets... if you play humans, you can have a look at all of them. This was my main goal. People that play humans might find these off-race features interesting enough to start playing Succubi or Gnomes afterwards, because they have been made more curious about them.
The other goal was the guild system. I actually wanted to do exactly this system for dwarves. But the forum community voted against it, because its too different from vanilla. Thats why dwarves have only 1 guildhall, it was decided by poll. But since that day I wanted to make these huge, multi-building guilds that dictate different industries. That goal I reached as well. :)
End-game for humans I could think of this: Foreign Envoys. Build a special diplomacy building, try to "invite a new civ", similar to orc raids, or how kobold steal, but instead you spawn buildmats for ethical buildings.
"You have received word from the Vikings, they allow you to build a Mead-Hall, which trains Berserkers."
"You have received word from the Far East, they will establish a Dojo, training Martial Arts."
"You have received word from the Sultanates, they send a spice and silk merchant. Turbans and Scimitars, hell yeah."
Obviously that clashes with the idea of using 4 different civs with different nobles as I planned, but I am not sure how feasable that is. The humans turned out to be too western, I cant just rename the nobles, give them scimitars and turbans, and suddenly they are middle-eastern.
But I am all ears for other high-end features. They are usually very difficult to write, and I dont know if I can do that within the week I have left (have to playtest, do a tutorial fort, finish the manuals... maybe some warlock stuff, maybe some graphical twbt stuff), but what could I possibly add? Religion is based on IndigoFenix Pantheon script, its actually pretty powerful and I assume it will only get better... magic doesnt seem human, high-tech is gnomish, high-end metals is dwarvish...
Post by: Guthbug on August 01, 2014, 02:41:25 pm
The foreign envoys idea is nice. Advanced option for the merchant guild hall?
No fantasy world is complete without humans, but the humans interact with the fantasy world. It's the humans in most lores that go out and explore, fight wars, dungeon crawl, etc.
I can think of several ways to simulate that in a building, but none particularly unique. They've all been done before.
Deon's tavern is completely underused right now. You can spawn adventurers, which is awesomely cool. But if you could then assemble a squad with them to do a dungeon crawl into the cavern layers? A whole new level of cool. Can somehow the cave adaptation be removed from the unique castes that are spawned in the tavern?
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2014, 02:45:08 pm
The tavern will get some songs with AoE buffs as well, like the dwarven one.
But honestly, the humans are pretty much finished from my point of view. Just military castes missing. the knighs and guards and such. Rest is done.
Post by: Guthbug on August 01, 2014, 03:46:21 pm
Sure I could remove cave adaption from them, but you could simply give them torches. ;)
The tavern will get some songs with AoE buffs as well, like the dwarven one.
But honestly, the humans are pretty much finished from my point of view. Just military castes missing. the knighs and guards and such. Rest is done.
Torches work now? Awesome. :)
They feel finished to me at this point too. The knights and such aren't going to add so much as to be a game changer. But you and I both know that as the months roll by, you're always going to be adding stuff. :)
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 01, 2014, 04:44:14 pm
An issue with the mod, at least from my point of view, is that people might play dwarves all the time, and completely ignore the other races.
It's really ironic that you say this because i fell in love with your mod because i personally dislike dwarves. I play fort mode because dwarf fortress is such an awesome game, but i primarily play adv mode because i get to be a human or elf (mostly human). I have been eagerly anticipating this mod, and am very pleased with the results!!!!
I do have a few ideas fr high tier stuff humans could do. I know you said humans don't favor magic, and i agree with that decision, but the idea of human mages is still a fantasy staple, and i was thinking you could expand on the altar.paladin ideas by having priests/clerics, and other mid range divine casters. Leading to forts that may put more emphasis on religion.... or against it (preferring guns and isolation to "honor" and fundamentalism)... you may not have time to implement that, but i will definitely continue to play humans, and find them to be one of my favorite races, because they can access so much of the other masterwork race's content 8)
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2014, 07:15:13 pm
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 01, 2014, 07:24:55 pm
Post by: Guthbug on August 01, 2014, 07:28:34 pm
nevermind then..... although the reason i said divine speels for humans is that the orcs have mojos and dreamwalkers, the kobolds have druids and witches, the succubi have the fireborn, humans don't have a unique magic class (which does fit humanity) but if they were to have one, i think religion would be the path to take (just my opinion, i'll play humans regardless)
With warrior priests wielding hammers. :)
I totally see the humans as that sort of Warhammer civilizatin.
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2014, 07:33:54 pm
Half medieval dark ages, half imperialistic swiss-guards. ;) Actually no warhammer influence at all in that mode. :D But of course people can play them as they see fit.
Post by: Guthbug on August 01, 2014, 07:40:44 pm
I kinda designed them to be played as "town outpost of large sprawling empire with guards and muskets and cannons", OR as "castle with peasants and knights."
Half medieval dark ages, half imperialistic swiss-guards. ;) Actually no warhammer influence at all in that mode. :D But of course people can play them as they see fit.
That's the way to do it. If you put them in there, then it's ALWAYS there ... if you leave it open like it is, then it can be in there or not as I see fit.
Post by: Excaerious on August 01, 2014, 10:51:54 pm
I feel like the Human Mode Cavern averse switch is one of the biggest changes ever. It really changes how you have to think. I've played 4-5 forts which have all imploded and the main reasoning has mostly been because I can't just dig my metropolis in a year or two. Having to create 'homes' and literal buildings makes everything infinitely more difficult, at least for me. It'a s struggle to keep a balance between industrial production and progress. I can usually get many builds up quite soon, on year 1 or 2, but I have to sacrifice the building up of resources for trade.
Speaking of which Trade is really fun. It allows you to 'roleplay' out tough scenarios and it still be viable, like trying to get by on only using wooden things to trade and commerce.
Post by: Guthbug on August 02, 2014, 05:27:00 pm
They're really much deeper than they look on the surface.
Post by: Meph on August 02, 2014, 05:29:58 pm
I started a succession fort: Glimmerring (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141663.0)
Post by: smakemupagus on August 02, 2014, 06:13:01 pm
[REACTION:BUY_ORC_1]
[NAME:Buy flachette gun for 1500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:TRADER_ORC:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:A:1500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:1:WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_FLACHETTE_GUN:INORGANIC:BRASS]
[PRODUCT:100:100:AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_BULLET_L:INORGANIC:BRASS]
[SKILL:NEGOTIATION]
Post by: Meph on August 02, 2014, 06:27:14 pm
Thanks for the report, I will fix it asap.
Post by: vonsch on August 02, 2014, 08:20:12 pm
You don't need heaps of boulders as the tips suggest if you start anywhere with peat, clay or fire clay. By that I mean the rock splitter makes blocks from those too, and they are, unlike wood planks, fireproof. (Peat really shouldn't be, but...) Not sure this is intended, but there it is. For purely aesthetic reasons, I don't plan to build a city out of peat, but it's great for that first mud wall, a farmhouse, and some livestock pens.
Also, humans may prefer the topside, but remember how DF defines that. You can still use the power of dig to get going, though not to the same degree as the real digging races. I dug out two levels of basement for my first house. For this first one I am flooring over the bottom and putting down furniture as I go. The -1 level will be a dining/great room, I think. Then some workshops on ground level. Doing it this way saves walls, at least. I could have carved out bedrooms on the bottom, but my OCD kicked in and I thought, "what if I want to take out the walls later? Those won't be considered outside."
It's just 9x9 interior, which I think won't be a standard. Looking at the guilds, I think 11x13 or so will be a better fit. That way a fully developed guild can fit on a floor with some room for stairwells.
Not into the new buildings yet beyond the splitters. But I did notice only arrows in the craftsman's. Based on what I read I was expecting bolts. I thought crossbows were going to be the human starting ranged weapon. I think the manual says that.
I also got bloomberry seeds on embark, but can't grow them. Since they are a bit pricey (4 each) that was a disappointment. I wonder if they are kobold only, or if it's just a biome difference from the homeland.
The new combined manual is nice.
An aside on the manual: Orc section could use mention of how to make pulleys and what exactly it takes to build each of the three ships. The entry on the shop just says what the components are, not how many you need. Makes troubleshooting stockpile links hard because it's hard to tell if it's bad linkage or it just takes more components than you have. Since raiding in pretty central for orcs it's a bit frustrating.
I think I am going to like humans. If I can keep the gators away.
Post by: vonsch on August 02, 2014, 08:43:36 pm
Working as intended? If so, need a warning in the manual to forbid or use stockpile links.
Post by: Meph on August 02, 2014, 08:51:09 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on August 02, 2014, 08:54:04 pm
An aside on the manual: Orc section could use mention of how to make pulleys and what exactly it takes to build each of the three ships. The entry on the shop just says what the components are, not how many you need. Makes troubleshooting stockpile links hard because it's hard to tell if it's bad linkage or it just takes more components than you have. Since raiding in pretty central for orcs it's a bit frustrating.
pulleys at Goblin tinkerer, or buy them at arms bazaar
2 pulleys per ship with rigging
Searching for: xebec
reaction_orcfort.txt(2752): [NAME:Build a xebec raiding ship]
Found 1 occurrence(s) in 1 file(s)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Flare on August 02, 2014, 09:35:55 pm
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 03, 2014, 04:32:09 pm
Second suggestion is adding halfelves/halforcs/half...fill in the blank, as a rare caste for the humas and the orcs/elves/whatever.... that would add some universality to the humans i think....
Post by: Meph on August 03, 2014, 04:35:36 pm
randomized names: Cant do that either. I can in theory get a larger selection of pre-set names, but it would require a lot of work. You do know that you can rename them? I never liked the set name... but the script doesnt allow randomized names. I can call them "warrior, the warrior", and you give them a name yourself.
Post by: UltraValican on August 03, 2014, 04:39:14 pm
Post by: Meph on August 03, 2014, 04:41:07 pm
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 03, 2014, 05:25:21 pm
Post by: Excaerious on August 03, 2014, 05:39:36 pm
Post by: UristMcDuck on August 03, 2014, 06:27:25 pm
A few editions ago, back in 0.4b, I had a fortress that did so resoundingly well (ultimately reaching 10-ingame-years and over a billion in generated wealth) that I decided to familiarize myself with the world and surrounding civilizations. One very interested detail was that my on-again off-again human allies had a *plague wraith* as their king! Now, was that a stroke of luck to have so unique an occurrence, or do humans have a habit of being led by creatures of that sort? Furthermore, can a human fort eventually become the equivalent of a Mountainhome and have such a creature move in and become a citizen?
Post by: Meph on August 03, 2014, 07:07:55 pm
Timestream, the calender time setting, will be released in the next update. You can in theory use it on old saves, too. :) IndigoFenix posted it in here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141524.0 , so you can just grab the script if you want. It should be included in the current test version... did you try v.1 of the humans?
Any civ can start to worship any megabeast, and they might or might not become king. I once saw a gnome civ with a mountain giant king, and a dwarven civ with a cursed queen that was transformed into a drider, half-dwarf, half-spider. And yes, if you become the "mountainhome" of the humans, the king will arrive, and the king will be that plague wraith. He will be tagged friendly and hang around your meeting area.
Post by: Excaerious on August 03, 2014, 10:34:00 pm
Blizzard men need to be bisected to be killed.
Timestream, the calender time setting, will be released in the next update. You can in theory use it on old saves, too. :) IndigoFenix posted it in here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141524.0 , so you can just grab the script if you want. It should be included in the current test version... did you try v.1 of the humans?
Any civ can start to worship any megabeast, and they might or might not become king. I once saw a gnome civ with a mountain giant king, and a dwarven civ with a cursed queen that was transformed into a drider, half-dwarf, half-spider. And yes, if you become the "mountainhome" of the humans, the king will arrive, and the king will be that plague wraith. He will be tagged friendly and hang around your meeting area.
Was pretty sure I downloaded the latest but apparently somehow I didn't. Downloading the newest resolved that issue right up quickly. Thanks. Fun as hell now with Humans.
Post by: UristMcDuck on August 04, 2014, 12:29:41 am
And yes, if you become the "mountainhome" of the humans, the king will arrive, and the king will be that plague wraith. He will be tagged friendly and hang around your meeting area.
That's hot.
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 04, 2014, 12:45:03 am
Blizzard men need to be bisected to be killed.
figured as much.... is there any way to tell my soldiers that?
Post by: moseythepirate on August 04, 2014, 01:12:02 am
I'm sure there are as many ways to handle human housing as there are players, but I wanted to share my own method of handling the challenge.
First, you Designate your floor-plan by Channeling it into a flattened, cleared area.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Once it's dug out, you carefully roof over the dug rooms with Constructed Floors. Access to the basement rooms should be via Constructed UP/DOWN stairways. You will, of course, need lots of blocks.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now for the trick: Go to Construct Walls, but enable Box Select by pressing 'b.' Make a big 'ol rectangle over the previously built or designated roofs. Did I mention the blocks? You'll need them. Have 3 or 4 brick-splitters going.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The wall placement will automatically skip over the previous constructions, and fill in each wall with a single stroke of the 'enter' key.
Handy!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This building is also easily expandable; just go up a level, and extend the up/down stairway. Repeat the process (placing the floors, then box selecting the walls), and you have an easily built second floor. Of course, this being dwarf fortress, you'll still need to babysit your humans as they build it, but it's worth the ease and safety of construction. If you construct it out of marble blocks, even small rooms will be luxurious enough to keep your humans happy. It also looks, in my opinion, awesome.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's my two cents. I'm sure most of you have your own means of doing such things, but I figure if I can save one person some trouble, it'll be worth the effort ^_^
Post by: vonsch on August 04, 2014, 08:11:55 am
Doing work up in the sky is dangerous. Especially if you have to deconstruct and you get attacked by gargoyles in the middle of it!
'Ware beloooowwww....
Post by: Insanegame27 on August 04, 2014, 03:40:45 pm
PS: anyone know how to stop hunting in autolabor?
Post by: Boltgun on August 04, 2014, 05:06:58 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on August 05, 2014, 01:45:02 am
Post by: Flare on August 05, 2014, 04:15:41 am
Hmm...it appears that there is still a distressing number of Sell Item things in the shops that only produce copper and silver...the Ore shop, for instance.
Replaced the silver and copper with gold. Haven't touched the conversion rates though.
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:HUMAN_SKILL_BOOKKEEPER]
[NAME:===SKILL BOOKKEEPER=====]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]
[REACTION:HUMAN_COPPER_COIN_TO_SILVER]
[NAME:1000 coppers for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:A:1000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:SILVER]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
[REACTION:HUMAN_COPPER_COIN_TO_GOLD]
[NAME:2000 coppers for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_B]
[REAGENT:A:2000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:SILVER]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
[REACTION:HUMAN_SILVER_COIN_TO_GOLD]
[NAME:1000 sovereigns for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_C]
[REAGENT:A:1000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
[REACTION:HUMAN_SILVER_COIN_TO_COPPER]
[NAME:500 sovereigns for 1000 coppers]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_D]
[REAGENT:A:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:1000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:COPPER]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
[REACTION:HUMAN_GOLD_COIN_TO_SILVER]
[NAME:500 sovereigns for 1000 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_E]
[REAGENT:A:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:1000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:SILVER]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
[REACTION:HUMAN_GOLD_COIN_TO_COPPER]
[NAME:500 sovereigns for 2000 coppers]
[BUILDING:GUILD_MERCHANT_E:CUSTOM_F]
[REAGENT:A:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:2000:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:COPPER]
[SKILL:RECORD_KEEPING]
Post by: Szarrukin on August 06, 2014, 08:07:24 am
Post by: Meph on August 06, 2014, 08:25:38 am
OK, I'm sure it was already reported, but brick splitting block makes blocks from EVERY stone. Including economic stones, like cave fungus or lignite, which is quite annoying. Is there any way to fix it?yes, I know. I am working on the humans atm, doing last fixes and balancing. its easy to fix, just add [WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY] after the reagent.
Post by: Meph on August 06, 2014, 11:36:33 pm
Have fun. :)
Post by: kizucha on August 07, 2014, 05:53:49 am
Post by: Jilladilla on August 07, 2014, 06:27:45 am
Hm i'm blind or are the humans unable to process tree saplings? I dont have the carpenters guild yet(maybe in the guild is a way?) but in the manual i cant find any way to make wood from farming. :-\ I know the trade and all but i will miss it a bit. :D
Carpenters guild grants the sawmill that'll do what you want (and yes I checked the reaction file to make sure) hope your tree farming operation ends up successful!
Post by: kizucha on August 07, 2014, 06:45:42 am
Carpenters guild grants the sawmill that'll do what you want (and yes I checked the reaction file to make sure) hope your tree farming operation ends up successful!
Thank you! :) Ok so my first thought was right. Full ahead to the wood farming! :D
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 07, 2014, 04:33:33 pm
Post by: Meph on August 07, 2014, 04:35:55 pm
i noticed that the knights hall was replaced by the colliseum, but i don't know how to turn a soldier into a squire? it seems to only summon monsters as it did beforeGarrison makes squires. Its in the manual AND the flowchart.
Post by: Megaman_zx on August 07, 2014, 04:40:49 pm
Post by: SharpKris on August 07, 2014, 07:30:38 pm
Post by: palu on August 07, 2014, 07:30:53 pm
Post by: Meph on August 07, 2014, 08:28:59 pm
What happened to the guild sigils idea? Maybe instead you could make "guildmasters", one of each guild, perhaps appointed at the guildhall, similar to the warlock overlord.No one said "yeah, guild sigils", some people said "I dont like all guild buildings in one place" and "I dont like using immobile pet creatures", so I didnt do them.
If people still want them, they are not hard to do. 30mins or so, top.
Guildmasters wont work, since they would move around. The sigils idea is to give boni for having all guild buildings in one place.
Post by: palu on August 07, 2014, 08:31:27 pm
Post by: Meph on August 07, 2014, 08:37:01 pm
Post by: palu on August 07, 2014, 09:46:06 pm
Post by: Meph on August 07, 2014, 09:53:54 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on August 08, 2014, 01:09:57 am
Post by: kizucha on August 08, 2014, 03:09:41 am
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 06:12:48 am
A question regarding the Bardic Songs played over at Deon's Tavern. Do the songs require line of sight to provide the bonuses? It's relevant to my towns layout.yes.
Someone can say me what the stockpile settings are for storing waterbarrels? I like to set up a tavern like building with a stockpile for food and drinks. The big problem with this is, it looks like water is also stored in meat-fish-stockpiles? ??? In the "extract (animal)" is an obtion for water but in the meat-fish-stockpile i dont have it enabled. So i'm a bit confused. :DVanilla doesnt have any stockpiles for barreled water, it might end up in any food stockpile. I am not sure.
Post by: windalu on August 08, 2014, 08:09:02 am
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 08:10:53 am
So, I just embarked with humans for the first time. A group of wild wolves was literally a part of the starting group, I didnt notice them among the livestock before unpausing. About 1/3 of livestock dead or hurt, some citizens hurt too. I have never before seen wild animals to be right on the starting spot, do humans have somehow altered embarks or is it just my "there is a first time for everything"?Happens sometimes.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 08, 2014, 11:45:45 am
I tried the human for a bit, and there is one point that confuses me greatly.
I wanted to go for a wood route, and I couldn't figure out how to get a sawblade that's needed for the sawmill.
Not at embark, not at forge, do I seriously have to grind gold and summon the dwarves for something as human as sawing wood?
Post by: Guthbug on August 08, 2014, 12:06:23 pm
Hey,
I tried the human for a bit, and there is one point that confuses me greatly.
I wanted to go for a wood route, and I couldn't figure out how to get a sawblade that's needed for the sawmill.
Not at embark, not at forge, do I seriously have to grind gold and summon the dwarves for something as human as sawing wood?
I think it is at the forge ... check under trap components.
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 12:26:37 pm
Post by: Nuhaine on August 08, 2014, 01:17:41 pm
1. Embark with as many Steeloak Saplings as possible next to a volcano, or find/create magma.
2. Channel out an area of 4 10x10 farms for Steeloak Saplings, and 4 5x5 farms for your food crops.
3. Mine for some Minerals, sell them at Ore Trader.
4. Build a Carpenter Guild. Upgrade to Level 4.
5. Build a Trap Merchant. Buy 4 Bronze Sawblades.
6. Build Sawmill and Exotic Wood buildings (4 of each)
7. Dedicate workers to them, then create your forges. Make Knuckledusters (worth 2 Vouchers for 1 Steel Bar!)
8. Sell Knuckledusters for Vouchers, then sell Vouchers for coins.
Bonus: Equip your farmers, sawmill people, exotic woodworkers, smiths and merchants with Rocket Boots from the Gnome Merchant. You are now hyper efficient and can convert Acorns to Coins at lightspeed.
You are now rolling in coins, and can easily approach a million.
http://i.imgur.com/APYkXu3.png
(Had over 1 Million before, but I bought 12 Mechanical Dragons and a crapload of Flamethrower Turrets.)
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 01:20:19 pm
Post by: Nuhaine on August 08, 2014, 01:23:41 pm
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 01:40:14 pm
Knuckle dusters give less.
Less wood for same price.
Less gold for fungiwood/sporetrees.
Post by: Nuhaine on August 08, 2014, 01:58:29 pm
Rocket Boots to Rollerskates (You must use the Tinker Workshop to produce the best item)
All Workshops:
Should require an additional 500 Gold Coins in every reaction. This will emphasize that they are getting paid by the fort for their service. It will also make it less efficient than actually being the race, which makes Humans somewhat unbalanced.
Become A Squire:
Should require 500 Coins or some sort of material. As it stands I can improve the quality of every human that doesn't require a guild for free.
Warlock Merchant:
Dreadnought set should be 20,000 Coins, same as Human Plate set.
Drow:
Giant Drowspider should be at least 15,000 Coins, as it's arguably more valuable than a Human Barbarian. It should make access to the Silk industry require a marginal investment.
University:
Haven't looked into the Library much, but I'm assuming if the Library skill cap is 10 or under, it becomes redundant compared to this.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 08, 2014, 02:41:18 pm
No big deal, but it's a bit odd, when all other embark seeds can make money.
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 04:20:06 pm
Wood stalk plant doesn't seem to be able to make money by itself or as booze (unless I missed an other way to use it?).Woodstalks should be kobold specific, but they appear randomly through all civs, depending on who has access to it in worldgen. So in theory it shouldnt even be there.
No big deal, but it's a bit odd, when all other embark seeds can make money.
Nuhaine:: These are good and all of them are in my todo list. :)
Post by: slay_mithos on August 08, 2014, 06:08:00 pm
Oh well, at least it makes booze reliably, and is the only standard non tree plant that grows in winter above ground, superb with the harder farming for underground plants.
EDIT/Double post:
I prayed a god for a while (1 priest, 1 altar, full time 'free' prayer with occasional sacrifice of a fish), and I can't seem to find how to check my "merit", if there is a value I can check.
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 06:18:20 pm
Post by: Angle on August 08, 2014, 07:30:27 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on August 08, 2014, 07:34:41 pm
A question regarding the Bardic Songs played over at Deon's Tavern. Do the songs require line of sight to provide the bonuses? It's relevant to my towns layout.yes.
What about Z levels?
Post by: Meph on August 08, 2014, 07:35:44 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on August 08, 2014, 07:53:41 pm
yes, across z levels, if its in line of sight.Peeeeerrrrfect.
*starts building an elevated open-air tavern in the middle of my town*
Post by: LMeire on August 08, 2014, 10:52:03 pm
Where do you guys like to build your human forts? I like to build mine above major rivers, inside the valleys they create.
I've been settling in cliffy deserts for the glass and stone access. Plus, some of the larger hills can be easily hollowed, smoothed, and refloored for a nice castle to house the nobles and guardsmen.
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 08, 2014, 11:00:53 pm
Where do you guys like to build your human forts? I like to build mine above major rivers, inside the valleys they create.I like a mostly flat desert with a brook running though. I tend to play humans like freaky dwarves, so I have a bunch of miner as the starting force and we quarry down a few levels then floor over it, so it's technically aboveground.
Post by: moseythepirate on August 08, 2014, 11:31:24 pm
Where do you guys like to build your human forts? I like to build mine above major rivers, inside the valleys they create.
I like building my towns on world-gen created roadways. It adds a nice bit of structure to the map, and doing things like paving/protecting the road become fun projects.
All Workshops:I disagree. I would argue that we already paid for their service when we bought the license. I also feel that balance between the different playable races is, in a word, pointless. It's not like your fortresses will interact with each other.
Should require an additional 500 Gold Coins in every reaction. This will emphasize that they are getting paid by the fort for their service. It will also make it less efficient than actually being the race, which makes Humans somewhat unbalanced.
Post by: Nuhaine on August 09, 2014, 12:46:07 am
Quote from: Moseythepirate
I disagree. I would argue that we already paid for their service when we bought the license. I also feel that balance between the different playable races is, in a word, pointless. It's not like your fortresses will interact with each other.
Well in the real world you buy the contract, and often pay more on top of that contract for additional services. The contract is just to get them under your thumb. I didn't really mean to compare the races, per se, just state that having the extra versatility is unbalanced. Dwarf Fortress is meant to be difficult, and with too much versatility without enough difficulty to access or benefit from that versatility, you can easily negate the 'FUN' in DF.
Where do you guys like to build your human forts? I like to build mine above major rivers, inside the valleys they create.
I'm currently building on a flat Glacier, because building on a flat Glacier is fun and gives me room to build. I'm bordering a Tundra, and Polar Bears have eaten a few of my humes. The resulting tantrum spiral crippled half my fort, but I now have a burgeoning metal industry. Once I have more men, my marginal stockpile of 100k coins should quintuple quite easily. Snow Storms were problematic, but I have a castle 4 Z-Levels tall that is slowly expanding now.
(Buy Wood -> Make Coal, Buy Iron -> Make Pig Iron, Steel @ Crucible -> Make Steel Knuckle Dusters -> Sell for just under double the investment in coins.)
Post by: SharpKris on August 09, 2014, 01:00:48 am
is there a way to pack the items you want to sell to the merchant so they wount have to bring it over to him piece by piece?
packing station maybe?
Post by: Nuhaine on August 09, 2014, 01:23:56 am
running a hunting village with leather based economy.You could just make bins, your men should put all of the leather into them. Trade Warehouses automatically unpack packages, so it would actually be bothersome to create new packages. Also, you could merely pack-unpack to get the desired quality.
is there a way to pack the items you want to sell to the merchant so they wount have to bring it over to him piece by piece?
packing station maybe?
Post by: Angle on August 09, 2014, 01:24:27 am
Also, Nuhaine, you are incorrectly attributing a quote to me. Just so you know. :P
Post by: Nuhaine on August 09, 2014, 01:37:13 am
Post by: SharpKris on August 09, 2014, 02:09:40 am
running a hunting village with leather based economy.You could just make bins, your men should put all of the leather into them. Trade Warehouses automatically unpack packages, so it would actually be bothersome to create new packages. Also, you could merely pack-unpack to get the desired quality.
is there a way to pack the items you want to sell to the merchant so they wount have to bring it over to him piece by piece?
packing station maybe?
problem is that they first put the leather in the bins and then take it out one by one to bring it to the merchant
Post by: windalu on August 09, 2014, 04:48:54 am
problem is that they first put the leather in the bins and then take it out one by one to bring it to the merchantrunning a hunting village with leather based economy.You could just make bins, your men should put all of the leather into them. Trade Warehouses automatically unpack packages, so it would actually be bothersome to create new packages. Also, you could merely pack-unpack to get the desired quality.
is there a way to pack the items you want to sell to the merchant so they wount have to bring it over to him piece by piece?
packing station maybe?
put you leather stockpile next to the merchant. Or just a small secondary stockpile that is set to take from the main stockpile. You will still carry one piece at a time but the distance will be short :)
Post by: slay_mithos on August 09, 2014, 04:51:08 am
My setup is 1 stockpile next to the leather production, that 'g'ives to a second one with 1 wheelbarrow next to the merchant (or wherever you need it).
If you have enough bins and the wheelbarrow for it, it can make the whole thing quite efficient in hauling.
PS: windalu was faster, but do add the "1 wheelbarrow", it usually helps having only 1 hauler, but transporting bins.
Post by: PiggiesGoMoo on August 09, 2014, 05:28:35 am
EDIT: My mistake, apparently this is in the manual.
Post by: Meph on August 09, 2014, 06:34:06 am
Encountering something odd. The human diplomat gave me a barony and then promoted my baron to a count when I've barely created any wealth. I've barely produced anything or traded anything, and I also haven't created a single weapon, weapon trap, or piece of armor. Also, it's only the summer of the second year of the fortress. It's annoying because I have to appease the noble before I even have my economy going. Is this related to some change you made for the humans? Oh and my "created wealth" value is blank, which is odd.Its intended, which is explicitly stated in the manual.
About the "pay 500 gold to foreign workshops": Nope. You pay gold to traders, the workshops have a worker you already hired. He does jobs, if you give him the materials. It makes more sense from a gameplay perspective as well, to have two different ways of getting off-race items. Either money, or the right materials.
Post by: Fleeb on August 09, 2014, 01:19:44 pm
Another oddity that I've just noticed is that caravans no longer bring cloth or leather, and they had for the first couple years. I've even requested cloth during the broker meetings. The loss of cloth and the immigrants stopping seem to have occurred at the same time, more or less.
Post by: Nuhaine on August 09, 2014, 01:47:16 pm
The loss of cloth and the immigrants stopping seem to have occurred at the same time, more or less.
Necar is a deity of The Cut Nation. Necar most often takes the form of a Male Cave Lobster and is associated with Chaos, Agriculture, and Traveling.
In the Midsummer of 512, Necar cursed the skeleton Kateb Tradeslaughter to prowl the night in search of migrants and cloth.
Kateb Tradeslaughter:
Kills - 5,112 Humans of The Cut Nation.
_________________________________
You may have set the 'Population Cap' too low in the settings, or you may have bought too much cloth or leather, as they stop bringing such materials if you have too much of them. Otherwise I have no idea.
Post by: Meph on August 09, 2014, 01:48:44 pm
Post by: Fleeb on August 09, 2014, 02:10:12 pm
Quote
Necar cursed the skeleton Kateb Tradeslaughter to prowl the night in search of migrants and cloth.
:D
Post by: Flare on August 10, 2014, 04:22:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
How do I add buildings to my game? I've got the buildings and reaction raws in the right human files, as well as the permits in the entities file. Does it have something to do with the launcher?
Post by: slay_mithos on August 10, 2014, 06:37:08 am
If not, try to add the raw additions to the save's raws.
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 06:47:46 am
It looks very industrial, factory-like. More 18th/19th century than 14th.
Post by: Flare on August 10, 2014, 07:04:08 am
There's probably something wrong with my raws. Here's they are if you're curious.
building_human:
Code: [Select]
[BUILDING_FURNACE:MAGMA_REFINERY]
[NAME:Magma Refinery]
[NAME_COLOR:4:0:1]
[BUILD_LABOR:ARCHITECT]:MECHANIC]
[BUILD_KEY:CUSTOM_ALT_Z]
-buncha random text-
[BUILD_ITEM:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_DRILLBIT_GNOME:NONE:NONE]
[BUILD_ITEM:80:BLOCKS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:TRAPPARTS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:12:GRATE:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:5:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]entity_good_human:
Code: [Select]
[PERMITTED_BUILDING:DFHACK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_GNOME]
[PERMITTED_BUILDING:MAGMA_REFINERY]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_DOWN_GNOME]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_UP_GNOME]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_PUMP_GNOME]
[TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_DRILLBIT_GNOME]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:REFINE_MAGMA_OBSIDIAN]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:REFINE_MAGMA_GLASS]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:SELL_HUMAN_MAGMA]reactions_human:
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_DOWN_GNOME]
[NAME:Extend drill]
[BUILDING:DFHACK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_GNOME:CUSTOM_D]
[REAGENT:A:1:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[REAGENT:B:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:NONE:NONE]
[PRODUCT:100:0:BOULDER:NONE:NONE:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:1]
[SKILL:OPERATE_PUMP]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_UP_GNOME]
[NAME:Retract drill]
[BUILDING:DFHACK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_GNOME:CUSTOM_U]
[PRODUCT:100:1:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:INORGANIC:RECYCLED_GNOME]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:INORGANIC:RECYCLED_GNOME]
[SKILL:OPERATE_PUMP]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_PUMP_GNOME]
[NAME:Draw up liquids]
[BUILDING:DFHACK_MACHINA_DRILLING_RIG_GNOME:CUSTOM_P]
[PRODUCT:100:0:BOULDER:NONE:NONE:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:1]
[REACTION:REFINE_MAGMA_OBSIDIAN]
[NAME:Fill (Obsidian) Barrel]
[BUILDING:MAGMA_REFINERY]
[REAGENT:A:1:BARREL:OBSIDIAN:NONE:NONE][PRESERVE_REAGENT][EMPTY]
[PRODUCT:100:7:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:MAGMA:NONE][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:A]
[PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[SKILL:OPERATE_PUMP]
[REACTION:REFINE_MAGMA_GLASS]
[NAME:Fill Glass Barrel]
[BUILDING:MAGMA_REFINERY]
[REAGENT:A:1:BARREL::GLASS_GREEN:NONE][PRESERVE_REAGENT][EMPTY]
[PRODUCT:100:7:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:MAGMA:NONE][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:A]
[PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[SKILL:OPERATE_PUMP]
[REACTION:SELL_HUMAN_MAGMA]
[NAME:Sell magma drum for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:TRADER_HUMAN:CUSTOM_B]
[REAGENT:A:2250:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:MAGMA:NONE][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[REAGENT:barrel/pot:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[CONTAINS:A][FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[SKILL:NEGOTIATION]You need a new world for it. What exactly does it do?
It looks very industrial, factory-like. More 18th/19th century than 14th.
At the time being it just pumps the magma into barrels. I'd like to eventually require that it uses magma safe barrels/specially made drums and see if the liquid draining script for the distillery works for this workshop eventually, but I decided to see if the raws worked at that point before I do more.
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 07:20:08 am
Code: [Select]
[BUILD_ITEM:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_DRILLBIT_GNOME:NONE:NONE]
[BUILD_ITEM:80:BLOCKS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:TRAPPARTS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:12:GRATE:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:5:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]138 items might be a bit much. The worker will get hungry, thirsty and tired and just cancel building it, long before it finishes.
Post by: psudo on August 10, 2014, 03:45:08 pm
I'm not sure this is an issue with just Humans, but they're the ones I've been having this problem with:
I can't use the boulders I bough on embark.
I have tried mass claiming them, but that didn't help.
I tried creating a stone stockpile and they happily drag the boulders there, but still won't use them for any construction or reaction.
I've even tried dumping them and then reclaiming them. That had the interesting effect of only dumping the ones in my stockpile and not the ones in my wagon, but still wouldn't let me use them.
At this point I'm stumped and would appreciate any help or insight you all have.
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 03:56:13 pm
Maybe they are economic, and you did not make them available in the stone stocks screen?
Post by: psudo on August 10, 2014, 04:20:41 pm
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 04:28:28 pm
Post by: psudo on August 10, 2014, 04:32:04 pm
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 04:34:40 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/5bOFYTm.png)
Every stone that is used in a reaction is economic. humans can sell any stone type, so pretty much all stone types are economic by default.
Post by: Flare on August 10, 2014, 09:05:25 pm
Check your errorlog, I think you just copied the gnomish stuff and will have DUPLICATE REACTION in it. You have to rename the IDs.
Ah, I didn't know there was an error log. Thanks for the tip. Will dfhack still work with the drilling rig when it's not the gnomes being played?
Quote
Code: [Select][BUILD_ITEM:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_DRILLBIT_GNOME:NONE:NONE]138 items might be a bit much. The worker will get hungry, thirsty and tired and just cancel building it, long before it finishes.
[BUILD_ITEM:80:BLOCKS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:TRAPPARTS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:12:GRATE:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:5:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
The worker probably will, though with large constructions like this, I either move all the parts close to the site, or I suspend it halfway through to let the worker get some rest.
Post by: Meph on August 10, 2014, 09:07:30 pm
The problem is not that its gnomish, but that you copied it. There is no need to copy it, either enable the reactions in the entity and thats it, or write a version with a custom ID. Currently the game bugs out, because there are two items (the buildings) with identical IDs.Check your errorlog, I think you just copied the gnomish stuff and will have DUPLICATE REACTION in it. You have to rename the IDs.
Ah, I didn't know there was an error log. Thanks for the tip. Will dfhack still work with the drilling rig when it's not the gnomes being played?QuoteCode: [Select][BUILD_ITEM:1:TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_DRILLBIT_GNOME:NONE:NONE]138 items might be a bit much. The worker will get hungry, thirsty and tired and just cancel building it, long before it finishes.
[BUILD_ITEM:80:BLOCKS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:TRAPPARTS:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:12:GRATE:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:5:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW:NONE:NONE:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
[BUILD_ITEM:20:PIPE_SECTION:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][MAGMA_BUILD_SAFE]
The worker probably will, though with large constructions like this, I either move all the parts close to the site, or I suspend it halfway through to let the worker get some rest.
Post by: Flare on August 10, 2014, 10:21:31 pm
Is there an option to use smaller font? Most of more complex reactions have their text cut off on the right.
Post by: Arcvasti on August 10, 2014, 11:39:38 pm
Post by: bennerman on August 12, 2014, 07:50:25 pm
Edit: Apparently the sawmill isn't there either. So how do I process Steeloak?
Post by: Meph on August 12, 2014, 07:58:00 pm
Edit: Apparently read the manual again. Sawmill is there. Just go to building page, search for sawmill.
Post by: Fleeb on August 12, 2014, 11:12:25 pm
Post by: Kartag on August 12, 2014, 11:57:57 pm
The alchemist has no reactions for some reason - do I need to research something else for it to work or is it just broken?
Also, I don't know how to make the town look good (especially in Stonesense). The houses need sloping roofs to look realistic, but the roof uses as much material as the house itself to be built (in case of 3-tile-wide house), and even more if the building is wider, so the house looks like a pyramid on top of a rectangle, which is not realistic at all. If I try to make houses enormous with multiple storeys to match its enormous roof, it seems extremely large and unproportional in comparison to humans. So, how do I build a realistic enough town with realistic-looking houses while not using all buildmats I have on a single house? Asking for advice and/or Stonesense screenshots of towns to get some ideas.
Post by: Angle on August 13, 2014, 12:41:57 am
Post by: Flare on August 13, 2014, 04:50:33 am
So, I built a carpenters guild, how exactly do I enlarge it? I have the gold, I queued up the job, but nothing's happening.
For future use, you've got to be more specific than "nothing's happening". Has someone completed the job?
Post by: slay_mithos on August 13, 2014, 07:44:21 am
The job is stated to use [SKILL:DESIGNBUILDING], which is usually known as 'Architect'.
It is possible your architects are all busy on other tasks.
Also check that you didn't set any 'P'rofile on the building (usually good for the 'join' task).
Personally, when playing the human, I set a whole lot of people as both mason and architect, because those two skills are used a whole lot while establishing your fortress.
Post by: Fleeb on August 13, 2014, 05:28:52 pm
So, I built a carpenters guild, how exactly do I enlarge it? I have the gold, I queued up the job, but nothing's happening.
For future use, you've got to be more specific than "nothing's happening". Has someone completed the job?
Nope. It just sits there in the queue, no one takes the job. I have put up buildings and other things that require architecture, and I have guys with only building designer active and they sit around saying no job.
If nobody upgrades the building, it can have many causes.
The job is stated to use [SKILL:DESIGNBUILDING], which is usually known as 'Architect'.
It is possible your architects are all busy on other tasks.
Also check that you didn't set any 'P'rofile on the building (usually good for the 'join' task).
Personally, when playing the human, I set a whole lot of people as both mason and architect, because those two skills are used a whole lot while establishing your fortress.
Oh sonofa... I bet it's the profile, restricted to only a couple guys after I had them join the guild. Thanks!
Post by: Angle on August 13, 2014, 10:10:58 pm
Code: [Select]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_E]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS_FOOCCUBUS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_E]
Post by: slay_mithos on August 13, 2014, 10:12:15 pm
I even tried in the 'good' biome I have on my map, no luck.
Is it one of those bugs where you can't plant unless you get a fully grown specimen first, or am I missing something?
Post by: slay_mithos on August 14, 2014, 07:48:49 pm
Tried to change a farmer's guild member into a weaver guild one.
The farmer became a pet for a little time (as expected), but returned to being farmer's guild member.
DFHack confirmed that the caste (soul caste and unit caste) were still farmer's guild ones after the 'change'.
A normal 'human' became a weaver without problem, so it's not an ID problem.
I think it requires more 'science', but it could be that a guild member can't change guild.
Post by: Flare on August 16, 2014, 07:57:30 am
Post by: slay_mithos on August 16, 2014, 08:21:34 am
Apparently, it's supposed to be a kobold plant, and it was not meant to be available to humans and dwarves.
You'll notice that it doesn't appear in the 'plant' merchant either.
Post by: Flare on August 16, 2014, 08:41:21 am
I guess I'll have to use underground plants if I want to have a year round brewing industry.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 16, 2014, 09:00:52 am
For example, 'Buy dolomite' says 500 as a price, when it actually takes 1000.
Same for all the other flux.
Most of the more normal stones buy and sell for the same price, so is the error from the price or the text?
Post by: moseythepirate on August 16, 2014, 12:36:11 pm
Somewhat unrelated, but I think there is something wrong with some of the prices.The text; flux is purposefully more expensive to buy and to sell. Meph did a big price overhaul a while back; I can only imagine a few of the approximately one bajillion reactions have typos.
For example, 'Buy dolomite' says 500 as a price, when it actually takes 1000.
Same for all the other flux.
Most of the more normal stones buy and sell for the same price, so is the error from the price or the text?
Post by: bennerman on August 16, 2014, 02:38:28 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/Z0DMhJ9.png)
Why was this goat born with tattoos? Obviously I'll keep her because she is gigantic and incredibly muscular, but will her children have tattoos too?
Post by: steelyeyed on August 17, 2014, 03:28:54 pm
Tried to forge bronze bars, but can't. No forge work for it. It is listed in the manager's menu as make bronze bars (2), but no one to make them. Bar merchant does not have them either.
Post by: bennerman on August 17, 2014, 05:20:09 pm
Maybe I've missed this, but can'tfind a topic on it.
Tried to forge bronze bars, but can't. No forge work for it. It is listed in the manager's menu as make bronze bars (2), but no one to make them. Bar merchant does not have them either.
You have to build a smith's guild and then the north extension (the crucible). It's all in the manual... but don't worry, I've been known to ask questions that could be solved by RTFM too.
If you are having trouble getting coins, build a food or drink market and sell drinks and cheese, that's how I do it. For drinks, you may want to set it so you only brew a single type of alcohol in the kitchen menu, preferably whatever plant you have most of, but also make sure you switch when you are low, as I don't think brewing recovers seeds. Hope that helped
Post by: palu on August 17, 2014, 05:45:46 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on August 17, 2014, 06:03:30 pm
The text; flux is purposefully more expensive to buy and to sell. Meph did a big price overhaul a while back; I can only imagine a few of the approximately one bajillion reactions have typos.Makes sense, but someone has to report it, otherwise it might stick for a few versions mostly unnoticed.
As for ways to make gold, it depends on the biome too.
A forested good area makes selling featherwood quite lucrative, a map that makes above ground silk makes for a pretty decent source of coins too.
It is completely possible to even use high quality coin stacks to buy way more from caravans (like coton, silk, plants), and transform that to get both labour experience and coins.
You could also use your high quality products to buy gold and gold bearing ores from caravans for way more coins than a merchant would net.
Really, there are many ways to make quick coins, it all comes down to how you play it.
The only sad thing is that it's impossible to make money out off buying from shops, transforming and selling back, but that's pretty small once you take into consideration all the possible ways to make those coins.
Post by: bennerman on August 17, 2014, 06:05:31 pm
Post by: Fleeb on August 17, 2014, 07:09:02 pm
Post by: bennerman on August 17, 2014, 07:19:40 pm
So, I made a drinks merchant, but I can't sell anything. Any drink I set to sell I get the error "needs food storage b-containing item"
Means you don't have enough. I think it sells about 3 barrels or so. That's why I said, make sure you focus on one specific brew. In my experience, cheese ends up making more money, but both is even better
Post by: Altaree on August 18, 2014, 09:51:45 am
Post by: slay_mithos on August 19, 2014, 10:44:06 am
I'm pretty sure I read about a way to specify a material to a workshop job, but I can't seem to find out how or to find the post(s).
To explain, I first wanted to use Workflow for various jobs.
For barrels, bins, bags or other similar things, it is great, but it seems to be lacking on the "material" side.
I have a brick block splitter, taking from a pile that only accepts one type of stone (I want my buildings to have the same colour).
Just as is, I can use workflow to limit the clutter, and restart when needed (even though it won't accept specific material through Shift+Enter), but the problem comes just a bit later.
When I built the basics (dormitory and wall around the camp), I usually start by getting a sawmill, and later a second brick splitter for higher price blocks.
The problem is that workflow will interfere with the second brick splitter and wood planks, because all of the outputs are considered "any block".
When I first read about workflow, I really thought it would help me for every repeat jobs, but it seems like the Shift+Enter thing is just there to tease, as it creates the entry, but refuses to apply it to the workshop task, because that task is more generic than the workflow entry.
It's the same with the vanilla still, you can't tell it to make wine when strawberry wine gets low.
if someone knows how to get it working, where I went wrong, I would love it, because what I read from Workflow seemed to hint that it is possible to do exactly that.
Post by: Kartag on August 19, 2014, 12:53:42 pm
Post by: Meph on August 19, 2014, 01:03:30 pm
I am very annoyed with inability to brew drinks caused by the fact that all barrels are occupied. All of my barrels contain stacks of 5-15 units of booze or food, and the wiki says that barrels can contain up to 100 units of food or drinks. So, I think there might be a way to create a reaction that merges stacks of food/drinks of the same type and frees the containers. Is it possible? Even if it involves dfhack, it is fine. Don't know where to post it, so posting here, because storage in aboveground forts can be more of a problem then underground - you can't just dig wider or deeper, you have to build another storey or even another building.No. Barrels can contain up to 15 drinks when used in custom reactions. Toady One "cheats" when he adds 100 units, its above their capacity. Just make rock pots, they are a good replacement.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 19, 2014, 02:27:49 pm
Even when using wood, try to get the first two levels of the carpenter guild, and make your stuff from planks (same with rock blocks for rocks), you can make twice as many from the same amount of base materials (and you can choose 'barrel' or 'large pot')
By the way, there is no way to 'unbuild' (south carpenter) wooden large pots, it caused me a few problems in my last fort when trying to get rid of wood as food containers (resorted to throwing them for cheap to a caravan after throwing the content).
Post by: Altaree on August 19, 2014, 02:40:46 pm
I tried turning on fastdwarf to make sure none of the humans who would get the seeds were otherwise occupied but they just ignored them.
Also made sure the seeds aren't forbidden. very odd.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 19, 2014, 03:16:25 pm
I'll make sure to double check that.
If it was a bag problem, they would put 1 seed per tile on the pile, so that's not the problem, at least, and they tend to make multiple bags when they cancel with "misplaced".
In the mean time, few things you can verify:
Are there any iddler with food hauling enabled?
Is your farmer taking the seeds from the workshop to plant? (forbid the other seeds to be sure)
Is your stockpile accepting rope reed seeds? (they don't remove them if disabled later and no other pile to take them to)
Does your 'j'ob screen show the hauling task for the seeds? (practically impossible to check in big forts with many things happening, but worth a quick look)
EDIT: I had a bit of time to get to my human fort, and had some rope reed (plant) around.
My seeds tasked (blue TSK) as soon as they were ready, so I think the problem is on your end, that's all I can say.
Post by: Vidox Darkling on August 20, 2014, 07:11:30 am
Post by: dukea42 on August 20, 2014, 09:17:10 am
However I was thinking random paladins become Templars with an aura effect or something maybe only for a month or so. It's a human form of magic.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 20, 2014, 09:38:55 am
I myself am not sure what type of god results in what effect (I have no clue where to look), but I would advise choosing gods that have positive or war-related theme, because I would not put it past Meph to randomly spawn a volcano in the heart of my map, or other similar FUN.
Post by: palu on August 20, 2014, 01:25:51 pm
List of effects:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Meph on August 20, 2014, 02:10:00 pm
Water eruption in freezing temperatures is very powerful... instantdeath by ice encasing. :)
Post by: LMeire on August 20, 2014, 06:49:00 pm
The plugin is here (http://bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138404.msg5260318#msg5260318).
List of effects:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So that's why AngelSilver burned to the ground! My best guess till now was one of those fire-succubi-things but I wasn't anywhere near rich enough to attract one of them.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 21, 2014, 09:00:52 am
As far as I can tell, the guard guard is all around worse, with the squire having the same EXP bonuses, with more and a few gifted levels for combat.
The only drawback being that squire (and knight/paladin) can't gain EXP for any standard job.
Did I miss something obvious, or is the guard only good for civilian conscription?
Post by: Kiefatar on August 21, 2014, 09:33:58 am
A few questions too...
1. I had set up a simple 1man wood bow/arrow armed military with my starting 7. He went and got one stack of arrows, but then refused to pick up any more. I even set up a ammo stockpile, but nobody's touching the 4 other stacks. They most certainly aren't forbidden or dumped.
2. Why would a whole freshwater lake be fishless? My most recent embark was on a shore so I could take advantage of a fishing economy, but my fisherman soon tells me it's empty. I can imagine the smaller ponds that can appear to be barren, but a whole multi-embark tile lake?
Post by: Altaree on August 21, 2014, 10:13:03 am
Odd, my humans do seem to take the reed seeds just fine...It I had a string stockpile taking from the workshops :(. I forgot that this kept the seeds from being sent to the see stockpile. whoops. Thanks for looking at this for me. I appreciate your time especially when it was such a silly mistake.
I'll make sure to double check that.
If it was a bag problem, they would put 1 seed per tile on the pile, so that's not the problem, at least, and they tend to make multiple bags when they cancel with "misplaced".
In the mean time, few things you can verify:
Are there any iddler with food hauling enabled?
Is your farmer taking the seeds from the workshop to plant? (forbid the other seeds to be sure)
Is your stockpile accepting rope reed seeds? (they don't remove them if disabled later and no other pile to take them to)
Does your 'j'ob screen show the hauling task for the seeds? (practically impossible to check in big forts with many things happening, but worth a quick look)
EDIT: I had a bit of time to get to my human fort, and had some rope reed (plant) around.
My seeds tasked (blue TSK) as soon as they were ready, so I think the problem is on your end, that's all I can say.
Post by: Altaree on August 21, 2014, 11:09:39 am
While trying to setup a small early military, I was wondering what the difference between squire and guard.Guards/Marksmen are your militia fighters. The can have a civilian occupation. Squire/knight/paladin are your dedicated warriors/haulers. They will gain only fighting skills.
As far as I can tell, the guard guard is all around worse, with the squire having the same EXP bonuses, with more and a few gifted levels for combat.
The only drawback being that squire (and knight/paladin) can't gain EXP for any standard job.
Did I miss something obvious, or is the guard only good for civilian conscription?
Post by: slay_mithos on August 22, 2014, 10:12:24 am
Now, about twice a season in 1/8 speed (so about once a year for normal time?) they transform from paladin to paladin, the exact same caste too.
I know it's already been mentionned, but it is annoying, because now, I am left with high legendary paladins, but with stats that certainly don't match because they transform all the time, rerolling basic attributes every time.
Last time (right now), one even transformed back into a knight (from paladin).
Now, I know exactly what is causing this messing things up (the timed transformation syndrom), but something doesn't make any sense in the raws.
[SYN_IMMUNE_CREATURE:HUMAN:PALADIN_FEMALE]
This line (I assume) is supposed to prevent my female paladins to run the syndrom, but there are other syndroms (?).
In order to track the problem, I used "showunitsyndromes", and copied the two units:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My guess is that the problem comes from the fact that those syndromes stayed, as [permanent], rather than being discarded once run.
I have absolutely no clue on if and what I should remove via a command to make them stop this crazyness.
Also, DT shows "Paladin", "Squire To Knight" and "Knight To Paladin" in the "buffs", which I assume comes from those syndromes.
Anyway, the point is that the whole Squire line is completely worthless as it is, because you loose all those juicy stats from training and combat, making them all around worse than guards for combat in the long run (yeah, weapon EXP bonus is nice, but it does not change things that much compared to maxed stats.
Post by: Altaree on August 25, 2014, 08:50:30 am
Post by: Gildemoron on August 25, 2014, 09:34:47 am
Post by: Meph on August 25, 2014, 10:45:46 am
I will fix the paladins in the next update... i have no access to the raws atm, so I cant check where the typo is. Probably one syn class not properly named.
Post by: Altaree on August 25, 2014, 10:47:31 am
I do not have the problem of repeated transformations. I was very careful to only make one squire at a time. I did not queue up the next job until the first squire left the building.
Back to the evil red marker. I have one of its minions in a cage and the rest are being butchered. The marker is about to be atom smashed. Hopefully this keeps them from coming back.
Post by: Meph on August 25, 2014, 10:51:14 am
I will make them run naturalskills automatically. :)
Post by: slay_mithos on August 25, 2014, 11:59:29 am
Anyway, I decided to scrap that fort, after loosing my main defense mean at the time and getting attacked by gnome necromancers (and there I thought they were my allies) that remained hidden but revived my big pile of remains, destroying all access to my food supplies (and creating a small 70 entities, against my 6 military and 30 normal humans).
I kept a save that happens to be just a few days after the last transformation I noted (right before my earlier post), long before the gnomes, so if you think you might need it, I can upload it.
Post by: Angle on August 25, 2014, 12:15:22 pm
Post by: Meph on August 26, 2014, 03:57:15 am
Post by: Altaree on August 26, 2014, 08:05:45 am
UPDATE: Turns out I just did not wait long enough. My other 4 original paladins have reverted to knights. I expect them to make a full recovery to Paladin soon. Then they have to find their gear... AGAIN.... sigh. Happy we just killed off two succubi ambushes right before this happened.
Post by: Angle on August 26, 2014, 11:18:41 am
Post by: slay_mithos on August 26, 2014, 11:23:51 am
[NAME:Alchemist]
If that's what you wanted.
Post by: Angle on August 26, 2014, 11:27:11 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LMeire on August 26, 2014, 11:40:55 am
Found this in the human caravan. This isn't really a bug report, per se, but I felt the need to point out that as a constrictor snake, boas don't have any venom.
Post by: moseythepirate on August 26, 2014, 03:16:44 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/kbeDnED.png)Perhaps the snake had a venomous personality, and the barrel is filled with cruel and sarcastic quips.
Found this in the human caravan. This isn't really a bug report, per se, but I felt the need to point out that as a constrictor snake, boas don't have any venom.
Post by: Zeronet on August 27, 2014, 08:53:40 am
I know in the middle ages they used to do earthworks to raise the central keep artificially.
Post by: Meph on August 27, 2014, 09:27:26 am
Post by: Boltgun on August 28, 2014, 03:38:20 am
(http://i.imgur.com/kbeDnED.png)
Found this in the human caravan. This isn't really a bug report, per se, but I felt the need to point out that as a constrictor snake, boas don't have any venom.
I'm curious to know if it's in vanilla too. It is worth reporting this error in that case.
Post by: kyranzor on August 28, 2014, 04:15:40 pm
Also, can humans make halberds? They are one of my favourite historical polearms
Post by: LMeire on August 28, 2014, 04:31:05 pm
Also, as for your actual question, you might want to consider upgrading your soldiers to squires as they get combat-skill training bonuses, only catch is that they can't train in civilian skills too.
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 04:39:36 pm
Copper is a terrible weapon-metal for everything but hammers, if the invaders had steel that alone could be a big reason as to why you lost. I'd invest in a Smith's Guild next time, both for the steel access and because I'm pretty sure the weapon smith extension can indeed make halberds.+1, all correct. Copper is really, really bad. At least mix it with tin to get bronze next time, which is still worse than iron... Copper armor is about the same grade as tough leather. If you dont have metals available, try a Tanners Guild the next time, at least you get good armor by using scaleplate or chitinplate. Its irongrade. :)
Also, as for your actual question, you might want to consider upgrading your soldiers to squires as they get combat-skill training bonuses, only catch is that they can't train in civilian skills too.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 28, 2014, 05:09:07 pm
They take a bit to make, but it is a very decent early protection, with a solid armour layer and a fur for cold protection as an upper layer.
As for copper, I make cheap arrows/bullets, as well as trap weaponry and other shields to train my smiths.
Might not be the best strategy for massive army (lamelar divides your leather stock by two, and requires string), but it's the best protection I could figure out in my embarks (somewhat weak animals for easy leather).
On the 'copper is terrible' point, it's true, but copper is still better than wood weapons, when you only have this as a weapon metal.
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 05:14:11 pm
Post by: kyranzor on August 28, 2014, 05:37:12 pm
I made copper helms, shields, mail and breastplates and leather gauntlets and greaves.. I also made copper spears and all solders also had bone bows with bone arrows.
I am familiar with ironbone from my couple of Orc forts so I'll aim for that on my new fort if I dont go straight for metal industry...
Squires make my soldiers into permanent soldiers right? That's fine because these guys were professionals anyway, until the Naga showed up and wiped them out. I managed to fend off about 30 white tiger men though so I guess the Naga have very high combat skill and their higher quality weapons were my doom.
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 05:38:54 pm
Post by: kyranzor on August 28, 2014, 05:52:14 pm
Also is it reasonable to try and get pistols and rock bullets early on? Or is there a tech issue with gunpowder? I've never investigated guns yet in MWDF so I'm not sure if the humans have a special way different to existing wiki info..
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 05:55:25 pm
Quote
If I were to fix the number in the file, would the changes work in my world or would I need a new fort for it to take effect?It would work on a running save. :) If you need it, just send me a PM.
Bullets I want to buff a bit, they seem less powerful than arrows atm, because of their small size.
Post by: slay_mithos on August 28, 2014, 06:08:12 pm
I mean, they are not the most raw power, but they penetrate pretty well, and they tend to blow the target away.
It might have been luck, but they really reminded me the vanilla crossbows in many ways, and dark stranglers being shot back a few tiles per shot was nice to see.
If you are going to up the raw power for bullets, you might in turn want to up the reload time a bit, to prevent guns from being as over powered as vanilla ranged weaponry (like, 1 shot with wooden arrow killing legendary fighter clad in masterwork steel).
Post by: kyranzor on August 28, 2014, 06:21:41 pm
Post by: Meph on August 28, 2014, 06:28:20 pm
Post by: kyranzor on August 28, 2014, 06:38:18 pm
Oh as a final note to the Naga killing my last fort, I had actually scavenged quite a lot of steel and iron and other metal weapons better than copper so i think it was just very skilled Naga and the fact my troops were so spread out and terrible combat AI (I hope toady fixes this eventually, the whole military system needs fixing)
Post by: Raszul on August 29, 2014, 06:23:22 am
I'm new to this forum, but already a huge MDF fan since about half an year now. You guys did an amazing job here ! Really, the mod is just genius !
So I finally signed up here, becouse I got a simple problem: I felt like the Humans lack a good guard animal, so I thought "no problemo, just make the dwarfen mastiff available for humans at embark". After 2 days playing around with the tags on the mastiff and the entity of the human race, I surrendered ....well, my understanding of the raws is a bit underwhelming :D It would be awesome if someone could help me out here :)
Oh, and I hope I placed this question right, wasn't really sure about where to put it.
Post by: Meph on August 29, 2014, 06:26:30 am
Post by: Raszul on August 29, 2014, 07:31:51 am
So I took
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Was that right ? Couse nothing happens.
Post by: Meph on August 29, 2014, 08:01:51 am
Its insertPet("PLAINS","MASTIFF","MALE") and FEMALE. I think it might even work without a regen, but you certainly need to re-embark.
Post by: Raszul on August 29, 2014, 08:19:19 am
Quote
Its insertPet("PLAINS","MASTIFF","MALE") and FEMALEYeah already thought of that, but needed to regen a new world.
Well thank you good sir, my next human city will thank you. ;)
Post by: kyranzor on August 29, 2014, 08:20:24 am
Post by: slay_mithos on August 29, 2014, 08:37:15 am
Non trained Mastiffs can already rio to shread most animals and weak invaders, and steel clad ones are not that far from a low/medium skill military member.
Post by: Bainin on August 29, 2014, 06:34:15 pm
Post by: Meph on August 29, 2014, 06:51:34 pm
What biome are you in? Most things dont grow in mountain, desert, tundra or glacier biomes.
Stone blocks: Did you set the materials to non-economic in the stone stocks screen?
Post by: slay_mithos on August 29, 2014, 06:54:47 pm
If a stockpile is set to give to any workshop, that workshop can no longer take items that are not form one of thee stockpiles set to 'g'ive to it.
Similarily, if a stockpile is set to give to workshop A, but not to workshop B, the workshop B won't be able to take items from that stockpile.
As for burrows, I am not experienced enough with them, but I read multiple times about them causing a workshop entry to remain red when you have the materials.
If you stockpile your coins, NEVER use bins, it tends to only mess things up, with the job cancel thing when your bins are transported.
Blocks not found, there is usually only one reason, being that you are trying to build in a place that doesn't have ground access to your blocks at the time you are trying.
It can be a bridge retracted, a wrong z-level (easier to make the mistak with the multi zlevel view), stairs/bridge/floor not yet built...
And finally, for farms, humans don't start with underground plants, being an above ground race and all.
My tip for you is to farm above ground, and the easy way to do so is to channel a soil area, to get rid of all the normal above ground things that prevent farms.
Post by: Flare on August 30, 2014, 02:13:07 am
Post by: Meph on August 30, 2014, 09:04:30 am
Does this lua reaction REACTION:LUA_HOOK_USEMAGMA require the workshop to be 3x3?No.
Post by: QbertEnhanced on August 31, 2014, 03:55:03 am
Post by: slay_mithos on August 31, 2014, 08:00:00 am
Well, I guess you can do it manually anyway.
As a big, WARNING, I'll say that you should always backup the files before editing them.
Now, open "Dwarf Fortress\raw\objects\reaction_human.txt".
Search for "[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_UPGRADE_BUILDING_UPGRADE_NORTH_CARPENTER]" (the first of the extension upgrade).
For each of the reaction entries until you encounter a long line of "########", remove the lines with "[REAGENT:Z:1:TOOL:".
As for why this works, you are basically removing the need for the permit.
That way, you won't have to build a single guild for that.
You will have to generate a new world for it to work.
I'll say it again, but I really feel that if you remove the need for gold coins for the guilds, human mode looses quite a lot in the process, but now you know how to do it
Post by: QbertEnhanced on August 31, 2014, 03:18:51 pm
Thanks again.
Post by: fedobear on September 01, 2014, 03:16:39 pm
Intended due to the transformation script or bug?
Post by: firefly68 on September 01, 2014, 03:20:51 pm
I made two citizens run the reaction to become cooks guild apprentices, they are now for all intents and purposes animals. I think they can still do labor but therapist sees them as animals and it's making managing their labor an annoyance.
Intended due to the transformation script or bug?
I haven't played much human so far, but I would guess it functions in the same way as dwarf mode guilds? In dwarf mode it takes some time after they become guid apprentices before they undergo another transformation turning them into full guild members which can then be given labors like usual.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 01, 2014, 04:24:32 pm
It won't fix their XP rates (even if therapists says it does), you'll need a small script I posted a while ago in the dwarves post for that.
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 02, 2014, 07:56:12 pm
To make bloodsteel, do I really need to buy it from caravans?
Post by: kyranzor on September 02, 2014, 11:34:17 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on September 03, 2014, 12:02:13 am
and the description of that building is
"
cook north - culinary kitchen (has the new kitchen reactions, otherwise humans have vanilla kitchen)
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:GUILD_COOK_N]
[NAME:Culinary Kitchen]
"
Hope it helps. I haven't played human mode enough to confirm it in-game.
Post by: kyranzor on September 03, 2014, 12:32:09 am
Also in the library info part on the cheat sheet it says that you need the screw press for glue, but the cook guild north extension also deals with glue? Is this intended double-access to glue production, or has the screw press had glue reactions removed?
Meph i'm trying to confirm where on the cheat sheet I saw the hint/tip "melt all copper and silver into coins" but I cant seem to find it anymore - It was definitely somewhere though perhaps in the manual. If I find it again i'll post where it is.
Post by: Meph on September 03, 2014, 10:51:49 am
Post by: Altaree on September 03, 2014, 01:07:38 pm
Code: [Select]
for _,v in ipairs(df.global.world.units.active) do
if dfhack.units.isCitizen(v) ==true then
if dfhack.units.isAlive(v) then
--print(v.race)
--print(dfhack.TranslateName(dfhack.units.getVisibleName(v)))
local x,y,z = dfhack.units.getPosition(v)
if(v.caste ~= v.status.current_soul.caste) then
if (z>0 or y>0) or x>0 then
print(dfhack.TranslateName( dfhack.units.getVisibleName(v)))
print((df.global.world.raws.creatures.all[v.race]).caste[v.caste].caste_name[0] .. " - " .. x..","..y..","..z)
print('Unit caste', v.caste,' ',(df.global.world.raws.creatures.all[v.race]).caste[v.caste].caste_name[0])
print('Soul caste', v.status.current_soul.caste,' ',(df.global.world.raws.creatures.all[v.race]).caste[v.status.current_soul.caste].caste_name[0])
print('\n')
v.status.current_soul.caste = v.caste
end
end
end
end
end
I will now let the world run from year 108 to 111 to see if the paladins switch again.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 03, 2014, 02:01:32 pm
I can say for certain that it doesn't fix the problem (I ran my script on my squire/knight/paladin each time they transformed).
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 03, 2014, 02:02:24 pm
How can I deal with the lack of magma power for fuel? Do I need to mass produce booze?
Post by: Altaree on September 03, 2014, 02:13:12 pm
If I'm reading correctly, you are basically applying what I did to all the active units.Dangnabit!
I can say for certain that it doesn't fix the problem (I ran my script on my squire/knight/paladin each time they transformed).
Post by: LMeire on September 03, 2014, 02:54:02 pm
Thanks for the help! Cooking guild is definitely one of the ones Ill start up early then when Im ready to make bloodsteel.
How can I deal with the lack of magma power for fuel? Do I need to mass produce booze?
You can burn wooden planks for one coke each at the smelter, that 4 coke per log if you use a wood splitter. (Presumably more if you get a sawmill, but I have yet to successfully acquire one without everything going to hell first.)
Post by: kyranzor on September 03, 2014, 03:07:39 pm
Thanks for the help! Cooking guild is definitely one of the ones Ill start up early then when Im ready to make bloodsteel.
How can I deal with the lack of magma power for fuel? Do I need to mass produce booze?
Just cut down some trees, and use saw mill or the wood splitter block to make each log into 4 logs, and then use a normal smelter to product coke [1] out of wooden planks [1] giving you a total of 4 fuel per tree log. That's pretty damn awesome. If you have a lack of available workers, just use the smelter and go straight to Coke [3] for a single wooden log (an unprocessed one).
Anyway from my third human fort so far, I found that it was really hard to start making any gold coins, when finally I found some gold ore (a shitload actually, I have 200+ bars and still heaps of ore yet to be smelted) it still took ages to smelt enough.
Also I had an immigration wave that was 0, and it gave me a message saying nobody had migrated this season. I was stuck for ages with only 36 people. Then I made a council chamber and demanded more people so I could get my fort moving along faster, and then I got basically a double migration taking me up to ~70-75 people.
I have not found ANY metal other than gold so far, which is awesome of course because I can just buy lots of hematite ore and smelt into ~3 iron bars each so far (does skill of the smelter worker mean i get better yield from a single pure hematite piece??). I managed to get a merchant guild and it's first two extensions and order crates of metal bars from my trade partners which was also a nice way to get stuff.
Meph, may I suggest you adjust the description of the reaction requirements for the merchant guild extensions? I was stumped for almost an hour trying to work out what "Empty boxes and bags" meant as a requirement. Turns out it just wanted a few cloth bags, which I had none spare, but even looking at the raws it was very obscure. There is no such thing as a "Box" in DF or MWDF so it was even more weird and annoying.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 03, 2014, 04:16:34 pm
I guess it was Toady being a bit lazy at the time (1 item type, chest/bag depending on the material), and never changed it.
Post by: kyranzor on September 04, 2014, 01:13:05 am
Can I ask how the Deon's Tavern hiring scheme works? I think I bought a warrior for 25k gold coins, but I wasn't paying attention to if it ACTUALLY bought him/her. Is there something unique or obvious I can look for in Dwarf Therapist for example, to help me find them so I can put them in a military squad?
edit: LOL nevermind, they are still ferrying coins over to the tavern to buy the guy. wow.
edit: Huh, the guy spawned, hes called "Uther" but he has no gear, just some crappy silk clothing half of which is worn out. His skills aren't that exciting either.. I think I got ripped off - I thought the warriors came with full Steel armour and weapons!?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
edit: *Sigh* seems that he did indeed spawn with steel equipment, but my squad sergeant ran up and grabbed it all.. how do I make the sergeant unequip all that stuff? All of my military uses iron based armour and weapons perhaps I can set their uniform to iron material and he'll drop the steel equipment?
Post by: Flare on September 04, 2014, 03:33:51 am
Post by: Altaree on September 09, 2014, 10:22:22 am
Post by: Violaceus on September 10, 2014, 06:18:18 am
Post by: Szarrukin on September 10, 2014, 09:33:31 am
Post by: Arcvasti on September 10, 2014, 10:06:54 am
Post by: smakemupagus on September 10, 2014, 10:07:13 am
FWIW here's a photo that includes the archery training grounds in Ghoshash, although the veterans got most of their archery practice live patrolling the citadel or the cavern perimeter towers, the new scrubs would get their start here. you can see the used arrows littering several of the firing lanes.
Spoiler: Barracks and training grounds (click to show/hide)
Anyway, switching up even to copper is a big help. I wouldn't "waste" steel on arrows unless you're swimming in it, it's a marginal improvement I think.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 10, 2014, 10:31:33 am
If you are not short on wood, wood and bone arrows are very similar in damage, but bone ones come in very small stacks.
It is OK for legendary hunters or training (either on live targets or when it works on target practice), but early hunters would often not kill their prey in 5 shots, making them cancel and come back to fetch an other 5.
An other thing I tend to do later on is to use ironwood or steeloak to make iron/steel grade wooden arrows, but that's only when I have enough bars of the respective metal.
It is slightly better than 'normal' metal arrows, because it doesn't require fuel to make (as humans often don't have a good access to lava).
Also, not sure if it can help you, but I tend to make a 3-4 squad for my archers (rather than hunters), and put them with an order that is "At least 1" and "Station", targeted on a guard tower above my entrance.
That way, there will be someone ready to shoot any hostile without delays.
I let the other train normally, to gain the other skills (shield/armour, mostly).
All in all, it all comes down to your specific fort, but most human forts gain access to quite a vast amount of copper early on (with the quarry digging), and appart from very early military, weapon traps or training your smith(s), there are not many uses for it.
Post by: Arcvasti on September 10, 2014, 10:43:47 am
Post by: slay_mithos on September 10, 2014, 11:19:45 am
I even tried to up the number to 1000, and they still were only bringing one stack, no matter the actual stack size (meaning even only 1 when I unforbid some by accident).
Post by: foxtrot on September 14, 2014, 06:12:59 pm
I've built my fortress and its going smooth and I decided to try and make my fisrt guild hall. I picked the smiths and built it underground with room for extensions. I had already made plenty of gold coins and decided to enlarged it to so it could have its first extension and after building the north extension and buying its permit, I just cant build the crucible. I select it press A for new task and everything is still in red and i cant select the crucible or anything else? If anyone knows how to solve this problem please help.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 14, 2014, 06:38:55 pm
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:LUA_HOOK_UPGRADE_BUILDING_UPGRADE_NORTH_SMITH]
[NAME:*Smith - Crucible*]
[BUILDING:EXTENSION_NORTH_BASE:NONE]
///the reagents are the buildmats of the building.
[REAGENT:A:2:BLOCKS:NONE:NONE:NONE][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[REAGENT:B:450:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[REAGENT:Z:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_GUILD_SMITH_N:INORGANIC:BLANK_HUMAN]
[PRODUCT:100:0:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:UPGRADE_NORTH_SMITH]
[SKILL:DESIGNBUILDING]This is the entry for the "upgrade" of the north expansion for the smith guild.
It means you need 2 blocks, a bit of iron bars (not certain how many bars it takes) and the permit.
If you have all this at disposal, then it means you need to check the usual (stockpiles, burrows).
Post by: foxtrot on September 14, 2014, 07:55:14 pm
I just did'nt have enough iron bars but now it works.
Post by: Meph on September 14, 2014, 11:34:51 pm
Post by: denspb on September 15, 2014, 09:19:11 am
I select it press A for new task and everything is still in red and i cant select the crucible or anything else? If anyone knows how to solve this problem please help.Just a hint: if you select and press Enter on red option it will show you all ingredients required for reaction (although not their quantities).
Post by: denspb on September 15, 2014, 09:20:33 am
Post by: Angle on September 15, 2014, 03:37:22 pm
To get your human alchemist to work, just replace the artificial gem, ironbone and bloodsteel reaction with these:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Plazma_Rush on September 20, 2014, 01:16:32 pm
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:BUY_VOUCHER_MATERIAL_GOLD]
[NAME:Buy copper voucher for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:WEAPON_MERCHANTS_STALL:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_ARMOR:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_WEAPON_RANGED:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_WEAPON:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_TRAP:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_VOUCHER:INORGANIC:COPPER][SKILL:NEGOTIATION]
[REACTION:SELL_VOUCHER_MATERIAL_GOLD]
[NAME:Sell copper voucher(2) for 500 sovereigns]
[BUILDING:WEAPON_MERCHANTS_STALL:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_ARMOR:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_WEAPON:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_WEAPON_RANGED:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_TRAP:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:2:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_VOUCHER:INORGANIC:COPPER]
[PRODUCT:100:500:COIN:NONE:INORGANIC:GOLD][SKILL:NEGOTIATION]The reactions have VOUCHER_MATERIAL_GOLD, but in the entity it's VOUCHER_MATERIAL_COPPER.
The reactions still take copper vouchers, though.
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 24, 2014, 09:57:15 pm
How do I make bloodsteel and iron bone?
I have a maxed out academics, cook, and smith guilds and the option isnt anywhere in them. I also have masons and engineers. The cheat sheet says its part of the alchemists guild, but when I add a new task, its completely blank and theres nothing to choose.
Post by: Arcvasti on September 24, 2014, 10:39:55 pm
Yup. I posted a fix for that:To get your human alchemist to work, just replace the artificial gem, ironbone and bloodsteel reaction with these:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This might help.
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 24, 2014, 11:01:09 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on September 25, 2014, 01:08:54 am
Post by: foxtrot on September 26, 2014, 03:18:26 pm
In the masterwork settings i've set the population cap to 150, yet my fortress is now 175 humans.
Is it because the population cap only works with dwarf fortresses?
Post by: smakemupagus on September 26, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
Post by: foxtrot on September 26, 2014, 04:26:45 pm
Ok thanks for the help.
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 26, 2014, 07:48:47 pm
You do need to generate a new world for it to work, just as an FYI.
=(
I guess ill just use dfhack to cheat some in, I have like 200 bones and ash made
Post by: smakemupagus on September 26, 2014, 07:55:50 pm
so if you keep the lines
[REACTION:CREATE_ARTIFICIAL_EMERALD]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_R]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS_FOOCCUBUS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_R]
[BUILDING:GUILD_HEALER_E:CUSTOM_SHIFT_E]
(or any other reaction that you don't mind changing) but only change its NAME, REAGENTS, and PRODUCTS i think that you might be able to do it without a regen.
Post by: slay_mithos on September 26, 2014, 08:10:40 pm
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 27, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:MAKE_IRONBONE]
[NAME:Transmute ash and bones to ironbone]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_I]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS_FOOCCUBUS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_I]
[REAGENT:h:300:BAR:NONE:ASH:NONE][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[REAGENT:A:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][USE_BODY_COMPONENT][ANY_BONE_MATERIAL]
[PRODUCT:100:2:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:RHENAYAS_DARKLIGHT_IRON][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[SKILL:POTASH_MAKING]
[REACTION:MAKE_BLOODSTEEL]
[NAME:Transmute ironbone and blood to bloodsteel]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_B]
[BUILDING:ALCHEMISTS_CHAMBERS_FOOCCUBUS:CUSTOM_SHIFT_B]
[REAGENT:blood:750:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[REACTION_CLASS:BLOOD] [DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[REAGENT:blood barrel:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][FOOD_STORAGE_CONTAINER]
[PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[CONTAINS:blood]
[REAGENT:a:150:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:RHENAYAS_DARKLIGHT_IRON][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[REAGENT:h:150:BAR:NONE:ASH:NONE][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:STEEL_DROW][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[SKILL:POTASH_MAKING] Looking at the above posts, it looks liek the only difference is the addition of the line [BUILDING:GUILD_HEALER_E:CUSTOM_SHIFT_E], so Im guessing thats the line I add. Ill try this.
Post by: SammyLiimex on September 27, 2014, 10:28:43 pm
It worked, thanks!
Post by: Zeronet on September 29, 2014, 06:03:04 pm
Post by: Meph on September 29, 2014, 06:37:25 pm
Something i've mentioned briefly before, but a suggestion i have for human mode is earthworks. Some sort of workshop that can convert stone or gather soil in order to build dirt walls and ramps. With humans modifying the surface so much if its possible, it could be cool so that people can easily create a castle on a hill without needing to find a perfect hill in the game. Or just build earth walls for star forts etc.You can already do that, just build a clay oven and queue "collect clay/dirt/peat" jobs at some soil area.
Post by: Zeronet on September 29, 2014, 07:21:04 pm
EDIT: Though it does make clay block walls rather than natural looking clay, i guess i was a little unclear, i was wondering if it was possible to make natural dirt/clay walls.
Post by: Meph on September 30, 2014, 04:45:01 am
Post by: fedobear on September 30, 2014, 05:43:26 pm
from stocks screen I can work out they're bars of some kind but I can't find the material.
Is there any generalized way to look at a certain material with perhaps dfhack to find out what material its made of / stockpile it goes in?
Post by: denspb on October 01, 2014, 05:12:46 am
how do I make a stockpile only for trade crates?Technically crates are bars of soap (made from tallow of non-existent creatures).
from stocks screen I can work out they're bars of some kind but I can't find the material.
Is there any generalized way to look at a certain material with perhaps dfhack to find out what material its made of / stockpile it goes in?Reading RAWs might help.
I believe this is the good example of information that should exist in manual - glossary of new items with stockpile category and hint about way to obtain/ use them.
Good candidates:
- trade stuff (crates, wagons)
- library stuff (paper, ink, glue, books, journals, researches)
- magic stuff (spell tomes, magic wands, skins)
- tavern stuff (pipes, tobacco, instruments, fireplaces)
- new metallurgy stuff (slag, processed ores)
- souls, megabeast souls
- tree growing (sapplings)
- gunpowder production (glycerol, black powder, dynamite)
- fossils/relics/treasures
- animal armor
- steampunk stuff : coin dies/precision tools/etc.
- gnome stuff : capacitors/magnets/etc.
- candles/torches
Post by: foxtrot on October 02, 2014, 08:08:46 pm
http://i.imgur.com/d8wts5i.png
The problem is that i was noticing my fish stock still dropping and that all my fisher guilds qere farming was a substance called "knowledge".
So no fish but allot of "knowledge which is worrying me, I'l still build a farm but I was hoping to know if this si a bug or something.
http://i.imgur.com/W1hkkM3.png ( as you can see my turtlepond is full of knowledge but no turtles)
Post by: denspb on October 03, 2014, 04:02:19 am
The problem is that i was noticing my fish stock still dropping and that all my fisher guilds qere farming was a substance called "knowledge".As I believe, this knowledge stones are there for the quicker experience growth. They should evaporate as they appear (it implies you haven't turned off TEMPERATURE).
So no fish but allot of "knowledge which is worrying me, I'l still build a farm but I was hoping to know if this si a bug or something.
http://i.imgur.com/W1hkkM3.png ( as you can see my turtlepond is full of knowledge but no turtles)
As for fish/turtles, each reaction generates fish or turtle with 10% chance (50% chance for knowledge stone).
With legendary fish farmer (and no stockpile for buckets) that would still bring you tons of food, but with dabbling fisher it can be really slow.
Post by: foxtrot on October 03, 2014, 05:23:31 am
Post by: slay_mithos on October 03, 2014, 06:09:23 am
The ponds are just fairly low probability, all of them, and it's on the labels too.
They usually are only half decent once you get to very high level in the skill, to be able to chain the jobs very fast.
Post by: denspb on October 03, 2014, 03:25:05 pm
1) Easy workout in Weight bench consumes the bar reagent (Medium/Hard workouts are fine)
2) "Farm turtles" says 5% chance in title, but actual chance is 10%.
Post by: slay_mithos on October 03, 2014, 06:01:26 pm
Post by: denspb on October 04, 2014, 01:16:46 am
The "workout" (the easy one) is a reaction that does not use any item in the raws, so I really doubt it would consume anything.I believe that was true in prior versions, however in 6.1 raws are:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: slay_mithos on October 04, 2014, 01:39:56 am
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:WORK_OUT1]
[NAME:Work out]
[BUILDING:TRAINING_DWARF:CUSTOM_A]
[BUILDING:WEIGHT_SET_KOBOLD:CUSTOM_A]
[PRODUCT:100:10:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SWEAT]
[SKILL:MISC_WEAPON]
[REACTION:WORK_OUT2]
[NAME:Work out - Medium (Any Metal Bar)]
[BUILDING:TRAINING_DWARF:CUSTOM_B]
[BUILDING:WEIGHT_SET_KOBOLD:CUSTOM_B]
[REAGENT:A:150:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:IS_METAL]
[PRODUCT:100:1:BAR:NONE:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[PRODUCT:100:20:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SWEAT]
[SKILL:MISC_WEAPON]
[REACTION:WORK_OUT3]
[NAME:Work out - Hard (Lead Bar)]
[BUILDING:TRAINING_DWARF:CUSTOM_C]
[BUILDING:WEIGHT_SET_KOBOLD:CUSTOM_C]
[REAGENT:A:150:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:LEAD]
[PRODUCT:100:1:BAR:NONE:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[PRODUCT:100:30:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SWEAT]
[SKILL:MISC_WEAPON] It's a bit odd, I really thought that 6.1 was just adding the hermit, but apparently, other changes had been made.
Post by: denspb on October 05, 2014, 03:29:23 am
In my human fort I have 3 bureaucrats. At some point new items required to increase precision of bookkeeping. Two of bureaucrats started updating records simultaneously and it seems that they were nod doing any progress at all. It could be true if record keeping job does "at the end of job unit set the bookkeeping score to score at the beginning of the job + some value".
Could someone proove/refute that?
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 17, 2014, 05:22:42 pm
Post by: Meph on October 17, 2014, 08:27:52 pm
Hey. Just wanted to ask - on the fort in my sig, I rented market stalls in spring for 3 months. It is now autumn, they haven't left. I need those coins - am I meant to do something?You get the coins the instant you rent it out. If they dont leave (which they should), you can kick them out manually.
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 17, 2014, 10:08:50 pm
???Hey. Just wanted to ask - on the fort in my sig, I rented market stalls in spring for 3 months. It is now autumn, they haven't left. I need those coins - am I meant to do something?You get the coins the instant you rent it out. If they dont leave (which they should), you can kick them out manually.
I tried several times, looked all around, etc.
No coins. I'll check tomorrow.
Post by: Meph on October 17, 2014, 10:41:13 pm
Which race is it, and which workshop?
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 17, 2014, 10:44:06 pm
Only one that doesnt give coins is the human merchant/worker. All other do give coins.Ah. I've been renting the foreign and local stalls to humans. Bah.
Which race is it, and which workshop?
Post by: Meph on October 17, 2014, 10:50:46 pm
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 18, 2014, 08:39:37 am
Post by: LMeire on October 18, 2014, 02:30:04 pm
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 18, 2014, 05:43:39 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on October 18, 2014, 05:56:18 pm
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 18, 2014, 06:11:23 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on October 18, 2014, 06:57:02 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Illogical_Blox on October 20, 2014, 02:28:47 pm
Hmm. I don't see anything wrong with the reaction:That was the problem. Thanks!you do have basic "rough" wood, right, not other types?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: There Is No Vic on October 29, 2014, 10:13:02 pm
The water buffalo bull stands up.
I am very amused by my deity ressurecting this water buffalo for me to eat again.
I can't find anything on a priest caste in the manual.
Post by: Meph on October 30, 2014, 03:39:16 am
Post by: There Is No Vic on October 30, 2014, 08:06:14 am
Post by: palu on October 30, 2014, 10:43:05 am
Hey guys, since the start of my fortress I've been fishing to keep it fed and it was going great but now that the river is now empty of all life I started making the neat new fisher guilds and i made a few of them.Also not that you don.t need all those guildhalls - you can buy unlimited extensions from one guildhall.
http://i.imgur.com/d8wts5i.png
The problem is that i was noticing my fish stock still dropping and that all my fisher guilds qere farming was a substance called "knowledge".
So no fish but allot of "knowledge which is worrying me, I'l still build a farm but I was hoping to know if this si a bug or something.
http://i.imgur.com/W1hkkM3.png ( as you can see my turtlepond is full of knowledge but no turtles)
Post by: Meph on October 30, 2014, 11:30:26 am
Knowledge is just a bi-product that allows the reaction to procude XP, if no fish are created. But it should evaporate, so you are playing with temperature:off, which is not recommended with this mod.
Post by: vcordie on October 30, 2014, 12:58:43 pm
Post by: maverik010 on November 12, 2014, 08:15:38 am
Post by: Emperor on November 12, 2014, 11:01:56 am
How can i open boxes with armor sets, muskeets and bullets? I assume it can be done at archaeologist normally but humans don't have that building. I looked into manual but there wasn't any answer for my trouble.
One of the extensions to the Merchant's Guild has the option to open crates.
Post by: slay_mithos on November 12, 2014, 11:20:51 am
Even for dwarves, it have nothing to do with the archeology building, but in the trade storehouse.
By the way, humans to have an archeologist, it just means that you still haven't upgraded every guilds, there are a lot of very neat things in there, and I'd recommand opening that big flowchart that Meph made for us.
That flowchart is really a superb way to present you the possibilities in a clear, concise way, and give you an idea of how to progress, depending on your goals.
Post by: LMeire on November 12, 2014, 03:44:18 pm
Post by: maverik010 on November 13, 2014, 04:45:40 am
Post by: lcy03406 on November 20, 2014, 10:04:38 am
Post by: Meph on November 20, 2014, 10:09:55 am
Post by: lcy03406 on November 20, 2014, 10:15:22 am
Fleece makes 3 pieces of thread, not one. Its more efficient, and there should be a reaction in the tanner? If not, try the greater tannery from the guildThank you but the problem is not making thread. The tanner has a reaction "Comb a fleece", it runs automatically and I have some threads called "fleece yarn" now in the tanner. I believe they are threads because the stocks view in the 'z' menu says that. The loom has 4 weaving reaction for cotton, silk, yarn and metal but none of them accept the "fleece yarn"s. So my question is how to make cloth?
Post by: slay_mithos on November 20, 2014, 11:04:27 am
Post by: LMeire on November 20, 2014, 11:45:04 am
Also IIRC, in vanilla some types of thread like horse-hair are too short/coarse and can't be woven into cloth, if that effect can carry over at all it'd be important to know what animal the fleece came from.
Post by: lcy03406 on November 21, 2014, 08:20:27 am
Post by: slay_mithos on November 21, 2014, 12:57:42 pm
Post by: JAK on November 24, 2014, 07:54:00 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on November 24, 2014, 09:49:31 pm
XXXw
XXXw
XXXw
X are your workshop
w is water, 1 z-level lower, with direct view.
Basically, build it next to a pont or a river.
Post by: Jiamil on November 27, 2014, 01:23:18 am
Post by: JAK on November 30, 2014, 08:38:35 pm
A citizen made a Seawolf society arms in a strange mood but I don't know if I can make ammunition for it in Human Mode. I haven't made the effort to make bullets and equip it somebody to find out firsthand, but it'd be great if somebody could let me know in advance.
Post by: smakemupagus on November 30, 2014, 08:41:21 pm
Question: can Seawolf society arms fire bullets made by humans in their workshops?
A citizen made a Seawolf society arms in a strange mood but I don't know if I can make ammunition for it in Human Mode. I haven't made the effort to make bullets and equip it somebody to find out firsthand, but it'd be great if somebody could let me know in advance.
Yep, should work
Post by: lcy03406 on November 30, 2014, 10:28:21 pm
And the first wave of migrants is too small. Maybe that's because I can't make enough wealth.
Now here are only 9 adults and 2 children and winter is comming.
Post by: slay_mithos on December 01, 2014, 12:22:48 am
The thing about humans is that you can "dig" the first rooms, and just have the roof to build, it saves time when making the bedroom and such.
They are somewhat slow starters on the wealth, but it also means that you won't get assaulted too soon, meaning that you have time to set up your defences.
It is also important to note that early military for humans is best done with guns (buy them from the human merchant), as they are physically weaker than the dwarves.
If you play on normal speed, I'd say to put 2 people to mining strait from the start, 1 farming, 1 stone cutter, and the 3 others can build, store, cut trees...
Depending on the biome, you might want to rush a merchant stall or two (the basic resource ones), to get a few gold coins and be able to buy what you want, including wealth materials for your migrant waves.
Again, I play on 1/8 speed, so I usually have already started my wall off when the first migrant wave appears, and by the first winter, I have a small town built, with the necessary traps and bridges to fend off most "early" threats.
But if you really want population, you have at least two ways to do that:
* You can increase your starting count from the launcher.
* You can use dfHack to spawn a migrant wave at any time.
Humans rely on having a bit more work to do, so starting with 10-15 should give you a comparable start to the default for the dwarves, as long as you take enough food.
Post by: lcy03406 on December 02, 2014, 11:07:42 am
Post by: JAK on December 02, 2014, 05:36:14 pm
A beginner question. I find humans are short on human resource. When I play with dwarves I can set two of them start sparing right after embark. But now the two men must spend their life cutting stones and building floors.
And the first wave of migrants is too small. Maybe that's because I can't make enough wealth.
Now here are only 9 adults and 2 children and winter is comming.
Through the council building you can spawn migrant waves for coins (I think it also attracts migrant attention like wealth does, as doing it multiple times got me larger waves).
You can get 10 generic stone boulders from the local merchant for just 500 coins. In wealthier fortresses you can completely substitute mining through that source. Remember to enable each stone type in the Stone window.
If you're crafty you can make entire underground stories by channeling out a large area vertically and linking it to a staircase, putting a roof over it, then filling in the floors as needed.
If you're short of gold...
-Ordering as much as possible in the form of bars, crates of bars, and using the trade screen's search function to look for gold items to melt is a great help.
-Build 2 of the Engineer's guild coin presses.
-Having a large livestock industry is great to passively accumulate wealth, namely with cheese. 5 units of cheese nets 500 gold at the local merchant, and butchering the adult males gives a little extra by selling the meat. I keep a large number of horses and pigs for this, and stuff into the same pasture the other stray grazers. 4 farmer's workshops milk on repeat.
-Succubus invaders and the Fortress Defense Mod races often bring gold equipment that can be melted down. The assorted other crap metal they bring is a great way to get scrap metal for ammunition production.
Post by: LMeire on December 02, 2014, 06:34:07 pm
Post by: JAK on December 02, 2014, 06:49:22 pm
Post by: lcy03406 on December 02, 2014, 09:03:36 pm
Post by: There Is No Vic on December 05, 2014, 10:07:43 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lcy03406 on December 06, 2014, 05:42:59 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Meph on December 06, 2014, 03:48:01 pm
Should I fix them, or should I leave them in, as a reward for smart players that learned how to cheat the system? :P
Post by: Arcvasti on December 06, 2014, 04:15:21 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on December 06, 2014, 10:51:57 pm
Maybe change a bit for many "chains", to allow small profits on other branches too, like the textile industry, so that those chains reward labour, rather than seeing them as exploits.
Personally, I try not to abuse those, to keep things a bit challenging, never having enough coins at the beginning, having to choose what industry to build or what can be sold because not needed right now, because I need a few additional coins.
At the same time, I tend to abuse an other loop in the mid-late game, by selling worthless junk (the flux from the metal processing, usually) to make masterwork coins, and use those to buy all I need from caravans, rinse and repeat.
If you think about it, most of the loops are not that overpowered, when you compare them to what other race can also do.
Dwarves have the praying that can give them free stuff at an alarming rate when trained, orcs and kobolds have this stealing/raiding that can net big prizes, gnomes can automate production, digging and transportation of goods, warlocks can revive their dead, and create the lower castes at will, allowing to scale the work force when needed, and the succubus can transform other civ members into specialized castes, that are better versions of their originals.
I might not know every (or any) race inside out , but it feels normal to have some overpowered things here and there for the players to discover, that's what DF has been about for me since I started, and seeing the insane contraptions people come up with, I'd say that I'm not the only one.
Post by: lcy03406 on December 07, 2014, 12:41:21 am
A question from my side about these exploits:Without these exploits human must rely on hunting and farming. While only raw resources truly make wealth you can't say human is a race that is heavily related to trading and gold coins. 1 bronze sawblade = 2 vouchers = 2000 coins = 80 meat. Level 2 guildhall and stonecutter = 7000 coins = 280 meat. Life is too harsh, isn't it?
Should I fix them, or should I leave them in, as a reward for smart players that learned how to cheat the system? :P
BUT these exploits are so powerful that breaks the balance. Textile industry only trains skills but produce exactly same money as the plants. All the other industries spend more money than you earn. I'd say human economy is base on hunting and farming and exploits. It's still not very much business of trading.
Maybe change a bit for many "chains", to allow small profits on other branches too, like the textile industry, so that those chains reward labour, rather than seeing them as exploits.That sounds perfect.
Post by: lcy03406 on December 07, 2014, 08:39:16 am
Post by: LMeire on December 07, 2014, 05:53:13 pm
Human can't build stable?
There's a "kennel" attachment in the Farmer's guild. I haven't messed with it much, but I assume it's the same thing.
Post by: lcy03406 on December 07, 2014, 11:38:26 pm
Never built a farmer's guild. I'll try it. :DHuman can't build stable?
There's a "kennel" attachment in the Farmer's guild. I haven't messed with it much, but I assume it's the same thing.
Post by: Emperor on December 08, 2014, 10:10:29 am
Never built a farmer's guild. I'll try it. :DHuman can't build stable?
There's a "kennel" attachment in the Farmer's guild. I haven't messed with it much, but I assume it's the same thing.
While asking community may be a beneficial solution, due to users living in different time zones, getting an answer might take hours, or even days. In the future, i humbly recommend looking at the beautiful cheatsheet Meph provided us - all guildhalls and their respective extensions are listed there, and opening it (depending on the machine you are operating on) will take only several seconds, which compared to 2-3 hours waiting for a forum response might seem a little...faster.
Post by: lcy03406 on December 08, 2014, 11:30:14 am
The beautiful cheatsheet didn't say anything about feeding grazers. I won't argue about your opinion about community but, I dug around the raws and found that humans can't feed grazers. In entity_good_human.txt there are no FEED_PET* reactions permitted. And in reaction_human.txt none of the reactions produce INORGANIC:PET_FEEDING boulders. In the war kennel, south extension of farmer's guild, you can only neuter, train, armor animals.Never built a farmer's guild. I'll try it. :DHuman can't build stable?
There's a "kennel" attachment in the Farmer's guild. I haven't messed with it much, but I assume it's the same thing.
While asking community may be a beneficial solution, due to users living in different time zones, getting an answer might take hours, or even days. In the future, i humbly recommend looking at the beautiful cheatsheet Meph provided us - all guildhalls and their respective extensions are listed there, and opening it (depending on the machine you are operating on) will take only several seconds, which compared to 2-3 hours waiting for a forum response might seem a little...faster.
Post by: Emperor on December 08, 2014, 12:41:02 pm
The beautiful cheatsheet didn't say anything about feeding grazers. I won't argue about your opinion about community but, I dug around the raws and found that humans can't feed grazers. In entity_good_human.txt there are no FEED_PET* reactions permitted. And in reaction_human.txt none of the reactions produce INORGANIC:PET_FEEDING boulders. In the war kennel, south extension of farmer's guild, you can only neuter, train, armor animals.
If is it true, then you have my apologies. I personally never bother with grazing livestock - far too much trouble.
Post by: Meph on December 09, 2014, 02:42:50 pm
Post by: Deathswarm on December 11, 2014, 12:16:44 pm
Post by: Deathswarm on December 11, 2014, 10:51:46 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on December 11, 2014, 11:15:49 pm
So humans can't use magic or magic workshops
Is that a question or a statement
Humans can recruit a simple Mage unit at Deon's Tavern, but as far as I know they don't have a magic user's guild.
Post by: Deathswarm on December 12, 2014, 01:04:01 am
Post by: Meph on December 12, 2014, 10:04:06 am
Post by: sgtmook on December 27, 2014, 02:16:31 am
I read on the manual that cannons are supposed to be creatures, is a cannon supposed to spawn at the cannon engineer's when the build cannon task is complete? If so, what could cause the cannon to not spawn?
Post by: Meph on December 27, 2014, 05:37:56 am
Silly question, probably. How does one go about building a cannon? When I use the cannon engineer's build a cannon task, my engineer just takes all the materials, work for a while, then leave the workshop empty handed.You are right, it should spawn a creature. I checked, the product is missing, I'll fix it.
I read on the manual that cannons are supposed to be creatures, is a cannon supposed to spawn at the cannon engineer's when the build cannon task is complete? If so, what could cause the cannon to not spawn?
Post by: Ishar on December 27, 2014, 06:09:23 am
I might not be the best for advices on this, as I play on 1/8 speed ever since it became an option.
Excuse me, what's this? I didn't find anything like this in the manual.
Post by: Meph on December 27, 2014, 06:13:32 am
When you open the GUI, there is a setting for calender speed.I might not be the best for advices on this, as I play on 1/8 speed ever since it became an option.
Excuse me, what's this? I didn't find anything like this in the manual.
Quote
A few extra words on the calender speed: It can be changed in a running fort, but you need to restart DF for it to go into effect. It makes the days pass slower or faster, which results in longer or shorter seasons. That means you can have more or less time between seasonal effects, like caravans, sieges, ambushes and migrants. It does not, I repeat NOT, change game speed, creature speed, how fast crops grow, ingame ticks, diseases, how fast children grow or anything else. Its just the time on the calender. But in relation to the season, things might go faster or slower. If you play with 1/8 time, it takes 8 times as long to complete a year. This means that a plant that needed 2 seasons to grow, now needs 1/4 of a season. Kids that grow up in 8 years would only need 1. Thats because the year has more time units. The other way around, if you play with 8 times speed, it will be pretty impossible to harvest any plants before winter, because winter arrives very, very fast. As long as it takes normally to go to Mid-Spring. Same RL time.
How is this used? For two things: Players that are pressured in the beginning by migrant waves and early ambushes can get more time. For example I played a 2 year fort with 1/2 speed, which is about 4 normal years of time, and only got 3 migrant waves. This means you have more time to get your fort started. On the other hand, if you are bored with your high-end fortress that does not get attacked often enough, you can increase the calender speed. On 4 times speed, you will face sieges, titans and fbs 4 times more often, in the same RL time that passed. It also makes for curious succession forts and time anomaly stories. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/vhOBHJ5.png)
Post by: Ishar on December 28, 2014, 05:21:17 am
Is there any way for humans to process the special metals?
Steeloak, welded wolfram/mithril and volcanic comes to mind. I know I can grow steeloak, but what happens when it's harvested? Do I get a bar instantly?
Post by: vjmdhzgr on December 28, 2014, 10:50:26 am
Another dumb question:Welded metals were removed several updates ago. Mithril and wolfram on their own were already good enough, the welded metals were just ridiculous.
Is there any way for humans to process the special metals?
Steeloak, welded wolfram/mithril and volcanic comes to mind. I know I can grow steeloak, but what happens when it's harvested? Do I get a bar instantly?
Post by: Ishar on December 29, 2014, 04:56:30 pm
My question still stands about volcanic. I know I can get it from dwarf sources, but can I use it? Humans lack the magma forge.
Post by: Meph on December 29, 2014, 05:31:38 pm
Post by: Ishar on December 30, 2014, 11:30:07 am
The issue is, two of my squires turned into knights, then paladins, as it should happen. Then, a couple months after the paladin transformation, they turned into knights again, and right after that, bang, paladin again.
I don't think this is normal. Could it be an issue that I started the fort at 1/8 speed, and changed it to normal after two in game years?
Post by: Meph on December 30, 2014, 11:35:40 am
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 01, 2015, 12:11:38 pm
Should i kill them or what?
What is an unholy ritual?
What does it do?
:EDIT: Ok. so she turned about half of my fort into Summoned souls, and then into devils, before turning into a human again. Upon checking her, it said she had the appearance of being two hundred years old.
What exactly is she?
How do i get my new Devils to do the work they used to? they're only listed as Tame.
Post by: Emperor on January 01, 2015, 12:35:35 pm
So. i was using the gnome merchant, buying a mechanical spider, when i get the announcement that the person doing it has turned into an Unholy Ritual.
Should i kill them or what?
What is an unholy ritual?
What does it do?
:EDIT: Ok. so she turned about half of my fort into Summoned souls, and then into devils, before turning into a human again. Upon checking her, it said she had the appearance of being two hundred years old.
What exactly is she?
How do i get my new Devils to do the work they used to? they're only listed as Tame.
I quess that it's one of these !Secret! Fun features. Never encountered an unholy ritual myself, to be honest, so I can't really help you.
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 01, 2015, 12:44:29 pm
Hmm. Maybe i can military them.
Thy are listed as succubi now though. And Tame. I don't think they'll ever do any work.
Post by: Emperor on January 01, 2015, 12:48:37 pm
Great. so half my town has turned into sex fiends, i have no idea when it will happen again, and they are all useless now.
Hmm. Maybe i can military them.
Thy are listed as succubi now though. And Tame. I don't think they'll ever do any work.
Wait a few weeks/months, perhaps they will transform once again into usable civ members - if not, then better dispose of them. Who knows what trouble they might cause once another ritual is in place...
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 01, 2015, 01:02:11 pm
Post by: There Is No Vic on January 02, 2015, 10:32:20 am
No you cant. Humans are not the great metalworkers that the dwarves are.
I know I was buying volcanic bars and doing something to end up with volcanic weapons and armor. Not sure how and my laptop is kaput atm. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Post by: Boltgun on January 02, 2015, 12:18:19 pm
Great. so half my town has turned into sex fiends, i have no idea when it will happen again, and they are all useless now.
Hmm. Maybe i can military them.
Thy are listed as succubi now though. And Tame. I don't think they'll ever do any work.
No they won't and it's not an hidden feature, apparently a reaction that should never happen in human mode ran into your town.
Post by: Emperor on January 02, 2015, 12:30:35 pm
Great. so half my town has turned into sex fiends, i have no idea when it will happen again, and they are all useless now.
Hmm. Maybe i can military them.
Thy are listed as succubi now though. And Tame. I don't think they'll ever do any work.
No they won't and it's not an hidden feature, apparently a reaction that should never happen in human mode ran into your town.
How could it happen, then? Is it fixable?
Post by: Boltgun on January 02, 2015, 12:49:29 pm
Great. so half my town has turned into sex fiends, i have no idea when it will happen again, and they are all useless now.
Hmm. Maybe i can military them.
Thy are listed as succubi now though. And Tame. I don't think they'll ever do any work.
No they won't and it's not an hidden feature, apparently a reaction that should never happen in human mode ran into your town.
How could it happen, then? Is it fixable?
There is not much to do anymore, besides loading a previous save.
Post by: Meph on January 02, 2015, 03:41:17 pm
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 02, 2015, 03:57:00 pm
Weird... can it be that a visiting succubus merchant did those interactions?
Nope. It was a full Civ Member, she works like everyone else, claims to be human in the "thoughts" screen. She just randomly shiffted into a "unholy ritual" and started turning anyone who got too close.
It actually had a combat report for the change.
"The Unholy Ritual grabs the Passing Fishery Worker and whispers dark words into his ear"
"The Fishery worker has turned into a Summoned Soul"
"The summoned soul has turned into a Devil Fishery Worker"
After the change i cannot alter their labors using the DFHack Dwarf manipulator, but i can alter their labors in the Vanilla screen, v, p, l,
After the change they are listed as "Tame" and do not announce their work, they are still listed in the Citizens Screen, not in the Animals screen.
I noticed after a while that they still will do the work i allow them too. I just made them all Fishery workers.
I keep getting Job Canceled:Cannot grab. when they try to put raw fish into the stockpile.
But they do fish.
Wondering what to do.
Onto the person who did it, She is listed as being 270+ years old.
Honestly kinda cool, but she is still claiming to be human. No crimes listed, considering opening Legends in backup save so i can read up on her.
Post by: Meph on January 02, 2015, 04:00:51 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on January 03, 2015, 01:47:04 am
The only explanation I could give for that is that the human civ abducted a succubus kid, who grew up in the human civ and then migrated to your fortress... but human are not baby_snatchers, so that cant be.Civs don't need to be baby snatchers to end up with citizens of other entity types. If civs go to war and conquer a site the ones that weren't killed join that civ (okay actually I don't know exactly how it works, but I do know that it does). A famous example being the legendary elven dwarven king Cacame ApeBalded who ended up in the dwarven civ as a result of wars between dwarves and elves. It's definitely possible for humans and succubi to go to war. As for the succubus migrating though, you don't migrants that aren't your civ's original creature, even if your dwarven civ is comprised entirely of goblins. You can get people with significant positions in your civ of a different creature. Again the elven dwarven king as an example and I believe outpost liaisons will visit your fort briefly. From the sounds of it though, it was a normal citizen of the fort that did this though so the mystery continues.
Post by: Boltgun on January 03, 2015, 04:32:40 am
Let's remove a lead, do you have an errorlog.txt in our dwarf fortress folder containing messages about duplicate objects?
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 03, 2015, 04:15:01 pm
Do you guys want me to post the save?
This is from after the Transformation.
I started a new one using the original embark save, if that's any help, although the person who did it, Ocgi Tawkiura
isn't there yet, and may not show up.
One last thing... how do i post a save? :D
Post by: Boltgun on January 04, 2015, 04:55:31 am
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 04, 2015, 04:14:46 pm
Post by: Meph on January 05, 2015, 12:25:15 pm
Is there no possibility that this is just a part of the Secret Fun StuffNo.
Secret Fun Stuff is only for dwarf mode, the other races dont have any. Its a bug... the conversion should only happen if Succubi (in Succubus Mode) capture and corrupt invading races. Not visiting Succubi in a human fort. ???
Post by: Nickolai Don Bonavitch on January 05, 2015, 06:10:31 pm
It was a full regular member of the Civilization.
Post by: itman on January 18, 2015, 01:09:20 am
Post by: smakemupagus on January 18, 2015, 01:13:11 am
Some of my humans are dying, and I'm not sure why. I would get a notification that my guy is too injured to hunt, but he isn't hunting. Then they die. One guy took an impact to the chest and buttock, and another guy's cloak blocked an attack with his cloak but is still dead. Is this a feature? :)
Hatch on a ramp? (sounds like your guys are falling down something. almost certainly not related to the mod)
Post by: itman on January 18, 2015, 01:22:55 am
Edit: It seems that anyone going hunting is swiftly killed. I managed to disable the labor on one guy after he broke his shin, and he was fine.
Post by: smakemupagus on January 18, 2015, 03:24:25 pm
Post by: itman on January 18, 2015, 05:58:31 pm
Post by: someone12345 on February 15, 2015, 11:54:39 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Meph on February 15, 2015, 10:29:07 pm
Semimegabest Queen?Yes.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Why not?
Post by: someone12345 on February 16, 2015, 04:41:52 pm
Post by: Meph on February 16, 2015, 06:11:28 pm
Post by: Gokajern on February 18, 2015, 01:19:27 pm
So if humans get different "cultures", what about other races? Of course dwarves have mountain and hill dwarves, but it would still feel lacking in comparison. Then there's the rest of the races, orcs, gnomes, kobolds, etc. All live in different locations/conditions but still have the same culture? I think it makes sense with warlocks and succubi, even the hermit. For everybody else though, it feels out of place.
I guess you could say I support the idea of various cultures in general for every race. Otherwise having vanilla humans or maybe a couple of cultures based location/conditions (like the dwarves) would make it more cohesive.
Post by: KittyRead on February 28, 2015, 06:51:45 pm
Post by: Meph on March 01, 2015, 02:12:50 am
Post by: RodriguesSting on March 01, 2015, 11:41:00 am
I like the idea of variety in general and yet there's one thing bothering me.
So if humans get different "cultures", what about other races?
It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.
Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.
But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.
Edit 2:
How do I mine with humans? I tried channeling holes but that doesn't seem very effective and I can only go down about 6 Z-levels before channeling further would trap a miner. I would prefer to sell gems and make coins with gold instead of selling feather logs but I'm worried about my miners getting cave adaption since there doesn't really seem to be a way to check the time except when the season changes.
Build down and up/down stairs on the border of the quarry, and go mining and channeling your way down. Don't make it too big, though, as you don't want to risk having your miners stuck there for too long.
Post by: Gokajern on March 01, 2015, 02:30:25 pm
It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.Creativity huh? Good point, still that trope would make sense if DF revolved around humans. Maybe we could give humans more cultures or variation than the rest of the races to account for these traits? Obviously without taking it too far. I also agree that it shouldn't be a priority though and of course without forgetting that it's all about the dwarves.
Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.
But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.
Post by: LMeire on March 01, 2015, 03:48:28 pm
It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.Creativity huh? Good point, still that trope would make sense if DF revolved around humans. Maybe we could give humans more cultures or variation than the rest of the races to account for these traits? Obviously without taking it too far. I also agree that it shouldn't be a priority though and of course without forgetting that it's all about the dwarves.
Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.
But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.
Not just creativity, it's also a probable consequence of how (vanilla) DF's cultures are displayed. Dwarves are isolationist and tradition-centric so they're unlikely to adapt or progress beyond the feudal hierarchy they start with. Elves are intolerant of anyone or thing that fails to align with their religion, and are likely to actively eliminate any hints of deviancy from their borders. Goblins are surprisingly tolerant, but their inherent "evil nature" would likely mean that even minor disputes would be a fair reason to commit murder which drives down the possibility of dissent; being evil would also make willing immigration from non-evil empires unlikely. Finally, humans are both very tolerant and very wide-spread, that encourages both immigration and diversity as human civs have to employ a large number of strategies to work different environments.
Post by: RodriguesSting on March 01, 2015, 04:04:13 pm
Though it still looks like a terribly hard to implement mechanic, but I am an outsider, I might be completely wrong and it can be as simple as chewing bubblegum. However, I believe making them balanced and fun to play on their generic form should come first to creating many, though possibly unstable and unbalanced mini-races.
Post by: smakemupagus on March 01, 2015, 04:31:53 pm
As to whether it's easy or hard to add this as a more filled out mechanic, it depends a lot on specifically on what you mean. It would take, like, ten minutes to tweak a few superficial things like the default weapons, animals, or cultural values. Even though that's simple it could have an interesting impact what you see from invaders and maybe a bit on the dynamic world and legends.
It could take an arbitrarily long amount of time to make a whole new civilization from scratch with it's own reactions and buildings, especially if you overhaul the core mechanics (non-mercantile humans, etc.).
Post by: RodriguesSting on March 01, 2015, 07:09:10 pm
Let's take, say, the vikings. For their quirks, they could have superior bows, better weaponsmiths, great tanning, but inferior metal armor. The japanese would be different, maybe capable of producing katanas, and so the "europeans", with crossbows, gothic plate and stuff.
I believe the trading faction concept should stay, as there is no reason for it to go away. Maybe the different human factions always keep a trading, maybe as a form of a multi-national quasi-company run by the guilds? That way, you wouldn't need to change neither the guilds or stalls, but would get the possibility of some easy to implement flexibility for the humans.
I also believe that we should set some bare minimum level of civilization for those alternative cultures. In other words, avoiding tribes or stone age people (maybe opening an exception for, say, Mayans, that were quite advanced, though metal smiting was discovered very late for them).
Another possibility too would be to make the player's fort, though financed by their especific civilization, run by the guild, strengthening the idea of "merchant outpost". Then, if this is possible, with each civilization archetype, the player would get access to one or two special buildings (say, Huscarl Longhouse and Raiding Port for vikings) with special interactions and equipment.
Edit: I was thinking... I am pretty sure you can adjust a civilization to make sure it will bring only certain items. While it could be only certain types of drinks and pets, I think we could use it to implement a quite interesting system in which every civilization archetype will have a token, say, "Nordic Token", the only kind your home merchants would bring you. You buy them from the caravans, and use it to build the cultural building (you will have a list, but the token would be necessary, in the way that, as a Nordic fort, you can't get a Niponic building).
At the same time, that could be used in interactions a la Warlock to create fort members, maybe cultural warriors made as castes? That could be interesting, but given how valuable the tokens would be, it would be necessary for that warrior to be truly an elite soldier, but let's leave the balancing for later.
Post by: LMeire on March 01, 2015, 11:25:03 pm
...
Let's take, say, the vikings. For their quirks, they could have superior bows, better weaponsmiths, great tanning, but inferior metal armor. The japanese would be different, maybe capable of producing katanas, ...
No comment on the idea itself, but you got your Japanese and Vikings backwards there buddy. The Norse/Celts were known and feared for their superb metalsmithing, and managed to make some pretty (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Viking_sword_collection.jpg) fancy (http://bottega.avalonceltic.com/rep_immagini/prod/elmo_vichingo_2.jpg) stuff (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Scuto_Battersea_BritMu252a.jpg) without sacrificing utility, but they looked down on archery and range fighting in general as being dishonorable. While the Japanese had to make do with low-quality iron gathered from black sand that was too brittle for much more than ceremonial uses like dueling; until the conquest of iron-rich Korea, warfare in Japan meant hundreds of archers and maybe a few dozen sword-wielding noblemen. The famous "Thousand-folding" technique used to make katanas is purely to shift impurities out from the center of the iron so the thing doesn't shatter the first time it gets blocked, good iron doesn't need to be folded.
Post by: RodriguesSting on March 01, 2015, 11:48:44 pm
Also, by no means, think the traditional katana is a superior weapon too, but we are working with fiction tropes here. If humans are going to be the creative, adaptive, varied race, and the Katana is already implemented in the mod, why not use it there as a superior sword? Hell, if they use my idea of elite soldiers by a token, a proficient swordsman/archer armed with that orc daikyu/katana combo would kick so much ass...
Post by: Meph on March 02, 2015, 08:16:34 am
Post by: chaosfiend on March 12, 2015, 12:53:16 pm
Post by: RodriguesSting on March 12, 2015, 01:06:40 pm
Post by: Meph on March 24, 2015, 11:39:23 am
The 40.x update of the humans will be delayed at least till Toady One releases the new DF version that includes traders and taverns. Lots of new features for modders to play around with, and no reason to simulate it badly now. ;)
Post by: chaosfiend on March 26, 2015, 09:04:49 am
Post by: LMeire on March 26, 2015, 10:27:25 am
Post by: jomen on March 27, 2015, 12:50:44 pm
I 'm wondering how do you install cannon . I have cannons which are considered as animals , i have built arsenals , but now what should i do ?
The manual says that you have to pastured cannons on top of arsenal . I did so but what now ? I don't really understand how to do. I searched with the research forum but find anything.
Need help here :)
And about the turret ( i have buy some from caravans ) how does it work ?
Post by: Meph on March 27, 2015, 09:05:28 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 02, 2015, 06:58:35 am
Post by: LMeire on April 02, 2015, 08:22:05 am
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 02, 2015, 10:58:24 am
Edit: Also barrel water filling is bugged. Or it seems so. Most of the time I get something along these lines: Cannot fill water barrel, water source needed.
There's a river in walking distance :-\
Post by: LMeire on April 02, 2015, 06:49:47 pm
Ah.... New problem though. I can't seem to build roofs... I had to channel underground and then it roofed. Help?
Edit: Also barrel water filling is bugged. Or it seems so. Most of the time I get something along these lines: Cannot fill water barrel, water source needed.
There's a river in walking distance :-\
Well for the first problem, is the roof accessible? You need an orthogonal (opposite of diagonal) space and a way to walk up to it to build any construct, including floors for roofing.
As for the second, I think the water-filling reaction uses some DF Hack trickery to require fresh water underneath the workshop itself. Either that or adjacent to it, I forget which.
Post by: Crust13 on April 02, 2015, 07:15:23 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 02, 2015, 10:17:21 pm
Post by: LMeire on April 03, 2015, 10:34:21 am
whats with humans and nobles?
Historically speaking, the longer a human society exists, the larger, more bloated, and more privileged it's ruling class will become. MWDF humans have lot in common with a typical medieval Italian city-state. At the top you have the King/Queen who may claim to be divine, followed by rich estate-holders like Counts, followed by village Mayors with whom the higher nobles consult with to inform the masses of the state's demands, and finally you have the general bureaucracy that actually does the paperwork in telling the peasantry what exactly needs to be done.
For the purposes of playing, just think of the potentially infinite nobles as a way to get special treatment for your favorite workers without pissing off the other "real" nobles, with the added bonus of never missing out on a good trade deal just because the broker decided to take a nap immediately after he went off break.
Post by: Emperor on April 07, 2015, 02:53:15 am
Post by: Boltgun on April 07, 2015, 03:32:00 am
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 07, 2015, 12:32:20 pm
Post by: Emperor on April 07, 2015, 12:41:34 pm
Maybe squires could undergo a strange mood of sorts? A desire to undertake a quest maybe?
I don't think we can control strange moods.
There is always a distinct possibility that I could be wrong, though.
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 07, 2015, 01:01:15 pm
Post by: nordak on April 08, 2015, 12:31:40 am
Post by: Meph on April 08, 2015, 12:45:05 am
First run with the latest version... Quickly discovered that the Humans were very vanillin, made me quite sad as I had my basements dug and was trying to find all the custom buildings. :'(Humans are not done or the new version.
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 08, 2015, 05:00:15 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on April 08, 2015, 11:48:56 pm
It doesn't mean that anything is finished, or even started, but it is still possible, which can bring that kind of misunderstanding to people that don't take time to read that it's not finished yet, and by a large margin.
Post by: Wyzack on April 09, 2015, 04:44:32 pm
Post by: Wyzack on April 10, 2015, 01:49:31 pm
Secondly my population is 210, but i am still getting migrants. It is becoming a problem, as i am running out of space. What do?
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 10, 2015, 08:49:47 pm
But I imagine it is some weird glitch regarding her race or sommat.
Secondly you'll eventually hit a limit. If necessary you can strip-mine underground housing. So long as sunlight hit it the game will not cave adapt.
Post by: RodriguesSting on April 10, 2015, 08:53:39 pm
Secondly my population is 210, but i am still getting migrants. It is becoming a problem, as i am running out of space. What do?
Apartments.
If I am playing with an above ground race, or any race that benefits from being above ground or doesn't need mining, sure as hell I will be building over 200 z levels high towers for them to live in. Looks cool as hell in stonesense.
Post by: Wyzack on April 10, 2015, 09:53:29 pm
Post by: smakemupagus on April 10, 2015, 10:13:20 pm
Your mage should have been able to wear clothes, no idea about that.
Post by: Wyzack on April 10, 2015, 10:57:25 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 10, 2015, 11:48:05 pm
Post by: RodriguesSting on April 10, 2015, 11:57:48 pm
At least have fun with it.
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 11, 2015, 12:37:34 am
Post by: LMeire on April 11, 2015, 01:10:16 am
Post by: jomen on April 11, 2015, 07:01:19 am
I play with the 34. version a human city. I cannot use gold coins for humans activity anymore. I used to , but now all feature using gold à listed in red although i have a lot of gold coins . I had made silver and copper coin to sell it to caravan because i have no use of these metals. I don't know if it is the problem. But i now storage copper and silver coin in separate stockpile and the problem still the same. Do i missed something ?
Post by: slay_mithos on April 11, 2015, 08:21:24 am
Bins and coins are only good if you plan on selling those to caravans, but for reactions, it screws things a whole lot.
Post by: RodriguesSting on April 11, 2015, 08:48:47 am
Post by: jomen on April 11, 2015, 09:31:13 am
But i will try to set bins to zero . Thanks if it work :)
edit : i just sell all copper and silver coins , get rid of bins in gold coins stockpile and the problem still the same :(
Post by: smakemupagus on April 11, 2015, 11:36:49 am
Post by: Wyzack on April 11, 2015, 12:19:10 pm
On a side note is there any way to increase coin stack size? It literally took 6 ingame months to haul all the coins to the tavern needed to hire a hero
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 11, 2015, 02:32:16 pm
Post by: slay_mithos on April 11, 2015, 04:09:42 pm
When a stockpile is set to give to even a single output (other stockpile or workshops), it forbids anything else to take from it, potentially making some problems in the process.
The other way around is true to, any workshop set to recieve from a stockpile will never scan for stockpiles not set to give to them.
It can be a bit confusing at first, but it can also be used to fine tune your processes, with the biggest impact being with boulders and cut gems, letting you use specialised stockpiles with only the wanted material, and using it to feed the workshops, ensuring that the correct materials are used.
Post by: Wyzack on April 11, 2015, 11:53:21 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 12, 2015, 12:00:58 am
Post by: Wyzack on April 12, 2015, 12:16:15 am
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 12, 2015, 12:21:36 am
Post by: slay_mithos on April 12, 2015, 03:49:24 am
On any small-ish entities, it also has a decent chance to knock them back, so they take a bit more damage from slaming on walls and such.
When I play humans, I have a sniper tower over my entrance, with always at least one musket user at any time, and that is enough to ward off most hostile animals from wandering near and entering.
It also doubles as a good way to not be caught too off guard when an attack comes, with at least one shooter at the ready to try and save any civilians that might still be out.
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 12, 2015, 04:14:42 am
Post by: jomen on April 12, 2015, 09:36:57 am
If it's not burrows, it can be because the stockpile is set to 'g'ive to something.
When a stockpile is set to give to even a single output (other stockpile or workshops), it forbids anything else to take from it, potentially making some problems in the process.
The other way around is true to, any workshop set to recieve from a stockpile will never scan for stockpiles not set to give to them.
It can be a bit confusing at first, but it can also be used to fine tune your processes, with the biggest impact being with boulders and cut gems, letting you use specialised stockpiles with only the wanted material, and using it to feed the workshops, ensuring that the correct materials are used.
Actually i did'nt used workshops set to receive stockpile but maybe i have set it accidentally i will check. It work with the manager but the reaction still unusable with workshops , it still red. The problem is that with manager i don't choice always what workshop will be used for generic reaction like "join the guild" :( . I ill try to pu gold next to workshop too.
Thanks for all your advice
Post by: Wyzack on April 12, 2015, 10:39:18 am
Also is it worth jumping through the massive hoops required to teach a few guys the way of magic? With warlock contracts i can teach a few spells like boulder throw and curse to my wannabe wizards, as well as powerleveling their sorcery skills at the university. Is there anything about magic i should know? I have never played warlock mode before.
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 12, 2015, 11:03:40 am
Post by: Emperor on April 12, 2015, 11:12:11 am
Nothing of that time remains, but ash and sorrow.
Post by: Wyzack on April 12, 2015, 11:59:17 am
Post by: smakemupagus on April 12, 2015, 12:00:18 pm
How the frig do i make totems? I can queue the job from the manager screen but it always gets cancelled, saying we have no totem producing body parts or something like that. I ask because they are needed for a few reactions at the Warlock workshop
Not a human expert, but I assume it's the same as other races (and vanilla) - at the craftshuman, from skulls.
Post by: moseythepirate on April 12, 2015, 12:20:26 pm
How the frig do i make totems? I can queue the job from the manager screen but it always gets cancelled, saying we have no totem producing body parts or something like that. I ask because they are needed for a few reactions at the Warlock workshopI've had this problem before; to make totems, you need skulls. I find it helps if you use a craftsman's shop near your bonehoard/butchers. If you have plenty-o-corpses around, try
- rders, [r]efuse, humans gather refuse from
- utside.
Hope this helps.
Post by: Wyzack on April 13, 2015, 12:44:43 pm
So i decided i was getting a bit bored, what better way to fix this than to slay some goblins! Challenge goblins to war x10 from my merchants guild and wait.
Next thing i know i am getting ambush after ambush. At its peak i think we had something like 270 invaders including their mounts. Not even a siege, just a fuckload of ambushes. My riflemen lined the walls and fired until they ran out of bullets. More goblins road in as fast as we could kill them. My mages stood alongside the riflemen, slinging chainlightning, curses and enfeeblement from their warlock staves. My troops eventually run out of bullets, and they cannot seem to grab more because the gobbos keep spooking them.
I build some extra staircases to get them out of there, and open the outer drawbridge to lure some goblins into the killzone. I set the leverpull on repeat so that we could hopefully slam or fling a few gobbos. What actually happened was that my outer bridge broke. Now the only thing keeping the goblin hordes back was a single locked door, and some trolls were on the way. My musketmen reload and retake the walls, but there are no fortifications between them and the trading courtyard, so they trade fire with the goblin bowmen. All of my melee troops and my mages are behind that door, just waiting for it to burst open. I draft a few more ragtag musket people to join them.
A troll finally wisens up and busts down the door. Battle is joined instantly. 80 or so gobbos vs my ten swordlord paladins and a handfull of weaker melee troops, backed by mages. The door makes an excellent choke point, and between getting slashed up and hexed we start to push them back. I totaly thought i was fucked, but my paladins really pulled through for me. I order all squads to run out to the front of the fortress into the thick of the remaining goblin bowmen. They beat back the frontline swordgoblins and sprint into the arrows. Bullets fly and cripple a few as the paladins and mages clash with the front ranks of the bowmen. Despite lacking any melee training my mages start cracking skulls with their staffs and enfeebling everyone, which was badass. The goblins finally begin to crumble in the face of the carnage and break. Very few escape thanks to my remaining gunmen, and the day is ours. I thought we were totally fucked, but we did it.
270 citizens down to 245, mostly military casualties but a few civilians in there too. Also my Lord Paladin's giant war tiger, rip in peace.
Not sure i will ever be able to top this, probably gonna retire the fort and try warlock mode or something
Post by: RodriguesSting on April 13, 2015, 01:05:19 pm
That was Minas Tirith, dude.
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/indebanvandering/images/5/5f/Siege_minas.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111205185506&path-prefix=nl)
Post by: Wyzack on April 13, 2015, 01:51:42 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 13, 2015, 03:44:18 pm
Post by: Plazma_Rush on April 15, 2015, 07:47:58 pm
Silly question, probably. How does one go about building a cannon? When I use the cannon engineer's build a cannon task, my engineer just takes all the materials, work for a while, then leave the workshop empty handed.You are right, it should spawn a creature. I checked, the product is missing, I'll fix it.
I read on the manual that cannons are supposed to be creatures, is a cannon supposed to spawn at the cannon engineer's when the build cannon task is complete? If so, what could cause the cannon to not spawn?
Has anyone been able to fix this? Since the whole Masterwork Reborn thing there hasn't been an update to fix that for those of us playing the old version.
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:BUILD_CANNON]
[NAME:Build a cannon]
[BUILDING:GUILD_ENGINEER_W:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:A:1500:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[REAGENT:B:2:TRAPPARTS:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[REAGENT:C:2:WOOD:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[SKILL:SIEGECRAFT]Either it's supposed to spawn something and the product is missing or there's a reaction hook script that spawns the unit. Those are my best guesses, at least.
Post by: chaosfiend on April 16, 2015, 04:55:32 pm
Post by: lordofgilneas on April 16, 2015, 09:03:31 pm
Post by: moseythepirate on April 16, 2015, 11:26:55 pm
Silly question, probably. How does one go about building a cannon? When I use the cannon engineer's build a cannon task, my engineer just takes all the materials, work for a while, then leave the workshop empty handed.You are right, it should spawn a creature. I checked, the product is missing, I'll fix it.
I read on the manual that cannons are supposed to be creatures, is a cannon supposed to spawn at the cannon engineer's when the build cannon task is complete? If so, what could cause the cannon to not spawn?
Has anyone been able to fix this? Since the whole Masterwork Reborn thing there hasn't been an update to fix that for those of us playing the old version.Code: [Select][REACTION:BUILD_CANNON]
[NAME:Build a cannon]
[BUILDING:GUILD_ENGINEER_W:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:A:1500:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[REAGENT:B:2:TRAPPARTS:NONE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[REAGENT:C:2:WOOD:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[SKILL:SIEGECRAFT]
Either it's supposed to spawn something and the product is missing or there's a reaction hook script that spawns the unit. Those are my best guesses, at least.
I too am interested in this.
IIRC, the Drow Toxicist is the Foreign SHop that allows you to poison weapons. I've done plays with poison Ammo on kobolds, but can someone enlighten me as to how long poison would last on a Melee weapon?
I do believe it lasts for...basically forever.
Post by: LMeire on April 17, 2015, 01:08:54 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 17, 2015, 05:16:58 pm
IIRC, poisons are a contaminant so they should last until the weapons get doused in water somehow.I believe the dfhack script that applies the contaminant makes them immune to getting washed off.
Post by: chaosfiend on April 18, 2015, 03:24:34 am
Post by: Emperor on April 18, 2015, 04:04:25 am
Hmn, nother question. Is there anything I can do with 'non-standard' vouchers? Seeing as you cant seem to sell them at all.
What do you exactly mean by 'non-standard vouchers'?
Post by: chaosfiend on April 18, 2015, 05:36:30 am
Hmn, nother question. Is there anything I can do with 'non-standard' vouchers? Seeing as you cant seem to sell them at all.
What do you exactly mean by 'non-standard vouchers'?
Standard Vouchers are the ones that you sell for coin: Steel, Bloodsteel, Bronze, Iron, Ironbone, Cobalt, Mithril
Non-standard would be ones like: Gold, Silver, Ebony, ect
Post by: Emperor on April 18, 2015, 05:44:29 am
Hmn, nother question. Is there anything I can do with 'non-standard' vouchers? Seeing as you cant seem to sell them at all.
What do you exactly mean by 'non-standard vouchers'?
Standard Vouchers are the ones that you sell for coin: Steel, Bloodsteel, Bronze, Iron, Ironbone, Cobalt, Mithril
Non-standard would be ones like: Gold, Silver, Ebony, ect
Oh, I see. Sadly, the only thing you can do is to dump them in magma, as they have no use. The [REACTION:SELL_VOUCHER_MATERIAL_GOLD] used to accept gold, but as of 6.2 it accepts only copper vouchers. Sorry.
Post by: smakemupagus on April 18, 2015, 10:17:58 am
It looks like this one would be pretty fine for (edit: actually, any of the metals you mention) ebony, for example:
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:BUY_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR_D]
[NAME:Buy war hammer (4 vouchers)]
[BUILDING:WEAPON_MERCHANTS_STALL:NONE]
[BUILDING:MERCHANT_WEAPON:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:4:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_VOUCHER:INORGANIC:NONE]
[PRODUCT:100:1:WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:NONE][SKILL:NEGOTIATION]
Post by: Wyzack on April 19, 2015, 02:21:01 pm
A mother, stricken by melancholy over her dead child sat sobbing in the streets, as a parade of people carrying corpses and the gravely wounded moved steadily past. Rain poured down, the congealing blood running in rivulets from the front gate and snaking down into the soil. The high priestess of Vicu, goddess of sacrifice, gave sermons and comfort to those on break from the steady work shifts. Grim-faced soldiers lined the parapets, clutching their rifles in the rain and looking out for any goblin stragglers. Those not hauling provided food and drink for the laborers. Everyone moved with a sort of steady automation, mild shellshock in their eyes. It would be many months of hard work before Brillianthanded returned to anything resembling normalcy.
As an aside, is there any easier way to remove my own people from cages than building the cages and attaching them to a lever? It takes a really fucking long time and 2 mechanisms per cage. If not there really needs to be an easier way, or else those stupid cage throwers are way too annoying to deal with.
Post by: LMeire on April 19, 2015, 02:47:59 pm
Post by: Wyzack on April 19, 2015, 02:53:51 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 19, 2015, 03:16:31 pm
Holy fuck the king and duke threw two soldiers in jail for not meeting production mandates while they were battling the goblin menace. Is it possible to kill the king/duke and not have new ones appointed? I think a revolution is in order after thisBack in 0.34 new nobles weren't appointed when one died. So, definitely.
Post by: Wyzack on April 19, 2015, 04:33:23 pm
The plans were set in place. Once the cleanup from the goblin massacre was nearly finished, the miners would be secretly contracted to dig a tunnel outside the walls that breached one of the deep deep cavern layers. The king, lords, and all of their associates would be exiled down there at gunpoint. Brillianthanded would become an independent city state, no longer bowing to the whims of the Plain-Nations of Webbing. A new chapter in human history was about to be ushered in, with the creation of the first human republic.
Post by: Vhorthex on April 22, 2015, 03:56:39 pm
Started a game with humans, and then couldnt' find any of their unique buildings...
Can't wait for their re-implementation!
Woo! Go Picard!
Post by: Wyzack on April 22, 2015, 05:18:13 pm
Post by: vjmdhzgr on April 25, 2015, 12:39:02 pm
EDIT: Turns out I placed the east one on the west side and the west one on the east side and mistook them. Still I should have everything I need for the south upgrade, but I can't seem to upgrade it.
EDITAGAIN: I have been able to construct the blast furnace as well so it is just the armory and weaponry that I can't make.
FINALEDIT: I figured it out you need two anvils. It looked like only one was needed.
Post by: caekdaemon on April 26, 2015, 02:14:18 am
I'm still using a version from before the Rebirth, but I have no idea how to use the clay I've got...
Post by: Meph on April 26, 2015, 02:54:33 am
I've got a question...how on earth do you use clay? The clay oven refers to having the material shaped and then firing it, but I can't find a building to shape it :OWorkshop(foreign) => Kobolds contract. The kobold potter works with clay.
I'm still using a version from before the Rebirth, but I have no idea how to use the clay I've got...
Post by: caekdaemon on April 26, 2015, 03:01:12 am
Ah right :D That's a little...hard for me to do at this point in the game, but it should be possible.I've got a question...how on earth do you use clay? The clay oven refers to having the material shaped and then firing it, but I can't find a building to shape it :OWorkshop(foreign) => Kobolds contract. The kobold potter works with clay.
I'm still using a version from before the Rebirth, but I have no idea how to use the clay I've got...
Let's just hope this fireclay industry pays itself off :D
EDIT : Actually, this is pretty odd, since it's possible for a human player to build a clay oven to fire it long before they can get a kobold workshop.
Post by: Meph on April 26, 2015, 07:56:50 am
Post by: TheStratovarian on May 05, 2015, 04:04:55 am
Post by: Plazma_Rush on May 06, 2015, 08:05:17 pm
I'm getting an odd thing with guild joining. It doesn't matter the It removes the person from the therapist and puts it as a military unit named guild apprentice, but won't change them out of it. I can leave a guild just fine, just not join one. Loving the human faction immensely, just finding that odd aspect irking.
Not really understanding what you mean. Normally, it makes them into a Guild Apprentice and after a while they return to normal as a guild member.
Have you tried waiting for a bit?
Post by: killy667 on May 24, 2015, 03:00:29 pm
Post by: LMeire on May 24, 2015, 04:56:34 pm
Post by: Meph on May 24, 2015, 11:41:07 pm
- You mint your own coins, aka mine gold, smelt gold bars and forge gold coins in the vanilla forge. Just like vanilla DF.
- You rent out workshops, aka you buy a "trade licence"-tool from a caravan, build a trader (foreign) and rent it out. Not very efficient.
- You sell stuff, aka you build a trader (local), get some resources/items and sell them. The best way.
Post by: Spleenling on June 26, 2015, 04:30:45 pm
I never seem to get attacked when i play as Humans, i am a Barony i have several Fortress Defense races active, i am at war with the Goblins, i have have been letting all the Snatchers go.
It has been 5 Years.
I am bored and on the verge of going to the Circus for the Lolz
Post by: Meph on June 27, 2015, 10:37:18 am
Post by: Spleenling on June 27, 2015, 04:23:12 pm
Unless i'm missing something
Post by: Meph on June 27, 2015, 07:08:54 pm
Post by: Spleenling on June 28, 2015, 01:25:29 am
Post by: vjmdhzgr on June 28, 2015, 10:25:22 am
That is correct. You get an attack, no actual war. I'm not sure why you are not attacked, that has never been a problem in 34.11. Maybe too far away from the other civs?Distance from other civs affecting their attacks was only added in 0.40. The only distance civs couldn't travel was across oceans or over mountains that have no way around them.
Post by: Neyvn on July 17, 2015, 10:52:18 am
Post by: Wyzack on July 17, 2015, 11:11:24 am
Just got a plague in my new human city. I think I have the two infectees in quarantine, but how can I actually cure them?
EDIT: Oh jesus i lied the entire fortress is infected what the fuck do i do send help. Everyone is now Pock-marked plaugebearers.
Post by: smakemupagus on July 17, 2015, 11:31:29 am
Disease resisting potions include Dwarven Cure-all (brewed from a plant; humans might be able to cultivate at some kind of elf building, .. or possibly import in crates) and Orcish Black Draught (humans should be able to buy at the Orcish trader).
Post by: Wyzack on July 17, 2015, 11:51:47 am
Post by: Wyzack on July 17, 2015, 04:42:00 pm
Post by: Vhorthex on September 29, 2015, 03:54:29 pm
Post by: chaosfiend on November 30, 2015, 08:03:03 am
Above problem was resolved, but a new one cropped up. Is the Turn Booze into Fuel reaction supposed to take ages to do? I have had someone doing the reaction in the Booze Burner for almost a whole season.
Post by: Meph on December 01, 2015, 11:44:13 am
Post by: chaosfiend on December 01, 2015, 12:04:31 pm
Post by: Devin9 on February 15, 2016, 07:59:13 am
Fuck I fucked up. Made a hospital to help the sick. All 87 humans save like 5 immediately went to rest. Deleting the zone did not get them back up. There is a very real chance everyone is about to starve to death, Boatdiamond is about to become a plague necropolis. Fuck.Didn't you know? If your settlement has boat in the name, it's going to get wiped out in some really weird and sudden way.
Post by: Imic on July 01, 2016, 05:56:35 am
Post by: Thuellai on July 14, 2016, 05:22:37 am
Post by: Meph on July 14, 2016, 06:34:48 am
Do humans not have screw presses? Started in a location with peat and was dismayed to find I couldn't compress it and use it as fuel for my industry.Yes, its part of the Farmers Guild, its the northern guild extension.
Post by: Metaltooth on July 15, 2016, 05:55:02 am
Post by: Meph on July 15, 2016, 06:11:30 am
Post by: Metaltooth on July 15, 2016, 06:25:27 am
No, all skills are covered except gelding, bookbinding and papermaking.
Any future plans for them?
So far playing them is very fun
Post by: Meph on July 15, 2016, 08:32:05 am
Post by: Metaltooth on July 15, 2016, 09:27:42 am
maybe a writers guild could replace the current library system. With a printing press or something like that.Get ahold of a Necromancer slab and mass produce that shit, everyone will live forever and war will end!
Post by: Dirst on July 15, 2016, 10:43:59 am
maybe a writers guild could replace the current library system. With a printing press or something like that.But, but... gelding! ;)
Post by: Metaltooth on July 15, 2016, 12:13:18 pm
http://puu.sh/q2Gz9/1a78ac5ddd.png
I chose to settle down on an island and got this when I chose my embark profile
Post by: IlFedaykin on July 17, 2016, 05:15:37 pm
-
-Uprade reactions for the guild extensions don't use the materials as buildmats
-(minor) Steel can now be made at the crucible but pig iron can not so you are forced to always build metallurgist smelter too
-(minor) Among the uses allowed for the flux stones the are rock weapons and armor so, in order to keep them, you have to use stockpile links
-(minor)brick splitting block has a repeated hotkey
Great Work btw :D
Post by: Nomus on July 19, 2016, 05:25:13 pm
Any ideas? I'm stumped.
EDIT: I reinstalled Masterwork and now it works fine, still have no idea what caused that behavior though.
Post by: Kyurisu on July 21, 2016, 03:26:09 am
Also, it feels kind of strange that humans can rent out a 'foreign' merchant stall to other humans to craft guns, but are unable to do so themselves. And not only for roleplay reasons either, since those stalls use the negotiation skill instead of any metalsmithing.
Aside from those issues though, I've been having a ton of fun with humans, so thanks!
Post by: Thuellai on July 21, 2016, 10:27:17 am
Post by: Nevets_ on July 22, 2016, 10:34:09 am
Post by: Meph on July 22, 2016, 10:35:56 am
I can't seem to figure out how to make pearlash, it doesn't show up in the Kiln's list of reactions. Was it moved to a different building? Ash/Potash are fine, but I can't find pearlash under the kiln, crematory, smelter, glasssmith or anywhere else I'd think to look.Academics guild. The (al-)chemist makes it.
Post by: Nevets_ on July 22, 2016, 10:53:20 am
Post by: Nevets_ on July 22, 2016, 03:17:06 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/2PXh4eT.png)
Post by: friendo on July 23, 2016, 11:21:49 pm
Post by: Emperor on July 24, 2016, 04:48:29 am
Post by: windalu on July 30, 2016, 04:31:21 pm
Post by: vonsch on August 27, 2016, 12:50:51 am
I'd rather have easier fertilizer from the farmer's guild than wild dogs. Only using that guild to convert farmers into better farmers.
Screwpress will become useful once I start working on library. Wicker is meh as long as there is wood around. It can be useful in some situations. Herbalist is okay, though I never bother with poisons except with bolds. Haven't built it yet so don't know if there are options for fighting disease there. If so it's a LOT more interesting and useful.
War kennels are a gaping hole at present. They need a lot of work, or need to be replaced.
Edit: On reflection the advantage to the War Kennel COULD be that it's much faster than breeding. But that assumes the output is tamed dogs, not wild ones. I'd suggest a bone or several bones instead of a toy though. The meat, chain, and cage inputs are fine. Even better would be if the output was war dogs. They could be neuter also.
Of course, if the plan is for a more robust system like the old gnome one...
Post by: Meph on September 06, 2016, 02:58:20 pm
Post by: Metaltooth on September 06, 2016, 04:53:11 pm
How do I keep these arseholes happy when it keeps raining?
Is there something I can counter it with thatll make them happier
Post by: vonsch on September 06, 2016, 05:52:35 pm
Question
How do I keep these arseholes happy when it keeps raining?
Is there something I can counter it with thatll make them happier
Compensate for the negative from the rain with an equal or greater positive. Or use burrows to keep them indoors when it rains? You could roof over most of the area at least your artisans stay in. Can't do much about woodchoppers, etc.
I generally go for decent rooms, a super tavern, etc. I should look into temple too. And put some nice furnishings along the main paths (master sculptures, etc.) And sometimes I flat cheat ;) (remove-stress in dfhack window while a humie is selected.}
Post by: Amostubal on September 24, 2016, 11:19:37 am
Personal suggestion instead of generic no source material, put out say reed thread/cloth, Llama yarn/cloth, cave spider silk thread/cloth.... the game seems to have a hard time accepting that certain hair is wool, if it doesn't have an associated wool bearing animal....
Post by: Meph on October 06, 2016, 03:23:53 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/KcJ4m2s.png)
Post by: LMeire on October 06, 2016, 09:38:26 pm
Post by: Splint on October 27, 2016, 02:57:03 am
Post by: Meph on October 27, 2016, 07:50:28 am
So, question, will humans be getting non-"hero" combat castes? I'm just curious, cause from what I read, they used to have an upgrade system for knights of some sort, but it was scrapped because of some issues with it or something; the 5 fighting ones also seem to be more geared for adventure mode or something, rather than fort mode. I'd be happy with just two, since they seem like they might be gimped for nonstatic defense with harder learning on.I can easily add some, but so far you are the only person to request it.
If I ever make a human-focused update, I probably add them. :)
Post by: Splint on October 27, 2016, 04:46:18 pm
So, question, will humans be getting non-"hero" combat castes? I'm just curious, cause from what I read, they used to have an upgrade system for knights of some sort, but it was scrapped because of some issues with it or something; the 5 fighting ones also seem to be more geared for adventure mode or something, rather than fort mode. I'd be happy with just two, since they seem like they might be gimped for nonstatic defense with harder learning on.I can easily add some, but so far you are the only person to request it.
If I ever make a human-focused update, I probably add them. :)
Am I really? I figured other people would have noticed they didn't really have joinable analogues for the other races' combat castes. :-\
My suggestion then would be a State Army enlistment building with Armsmen to do melee stuff and Marksmen for ranged fighting along with of course, using gold to bulk-order shipments of equipment for your new State Infantrymen (which a small chance of not succeeding, to represent lost, stolen, or misfiled orders.)
Perhaps sets of armor divided into simple, basic, and elite (buying cheap sets of helmets, mail, and leather armor, fairly priced sets of full regular armor, and sets of very expensive/extortionately priced plate armor.) In addition to a bulk order of standardized bronze or iron spears, axes, and crossbows - the weapons of the common man. It'd also be a good money sink if you have everything you feasibly need but your militia/mineral wealth is lacking.
While we're on the topic of a human focused thing, I'd also advise having actual values instead of leaving the variable setting, probably with an emphasis on craftsmanship, commerce, and skill at arms (good products sell for more and good soldiers are needed to protect caravans and investments; the fact humans are also almost always at war with someone somewhere in a given world-gen would make that fit.)
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 27, 2016, 05:07:24 pm
Post by: Meph on October 27, 2016, 05:16:42 pm
Quote
I'd also advise having actual values instead of leaving the variable setting, probably with an emphasis on craftsmanship, commerce, and skill at arms (good products sell for more and good soldiers are needed to protect caravans and investments; the fact humans are also almost always at war with someone somewhere in a given world-gen would make that fit.)
What exactly did you mean by that?
Post by: Splint on October 27, 2016, 05:25:29 pm
QuoteI'd also advise having actual values instead of leaving the variable setting, probably with an emphasis on craftsmanship, commerce, and skill at arms (good products sell for more and good soldiers are needed to protect caravans and investments; the fact humans are also almost always at war with someone somewhere in a given world-gen would make that fit.)
What exactly did you mean by that?
Unlike the other races, they have no preset values, instead they still have vanilla's variable range of -30:30 - this means that you could have what is explicitly played up as a merchant race that hates trade and commerce, among other things.
I've also found the humans are among the most aggressive races in world gen, probably tied with orcs and ferric elves in fact (both of which are also almost excessively prone to waging wars on their neighbors.) Very seldom do I find a human civ that hasn't within the last decade or two of world-gen ending, been at war with someone - including groups of humans in the same civ; and more often than not, they tend to be the aggressor. Favoured targets I noticed, tend to be elves, orcs, and kobolds.
As such, commerce and good quality products (that is craftsmanship) should logically be high on thier list, with skill at arms close behind them, just as examples for what masterwork's humans may value as a general rule.
Post by: Podesta on June 08, 2017, 08:11:20 pm
Post by: Amostubal on June 08, 2017, 08:41:02 pm
I'm quite curious on how the underground living for humans work. I know theoretically they get sick, and whatnot, but how is it implemented? Is it through the CAVE_ADAPT tag?
in creature_civ_human
Code: [Select]
[CAVE_ADAPT]
[SKILL_LEARN_RATE:MINING:25]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:33600]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW_SLOW]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:3050]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
from interaction_masterwork:
Code: [Select]
[INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
[IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
[IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:LIGHT]
[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]
[SYNDROME]
[CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:10:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:10000:END:20000]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:18400:26800:REQUIRED]
[CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:100:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:10000:END:20000]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:26800:33600:REQUIRED]
[CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:1000:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:10000:END:20000]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:33600:NONE:REQUIRED]
[INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW_SLOW]
[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
[IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
[IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:LIGHT]
[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]
[SYNDROME]
[CE_SPEED_CHANGE:SPEED_PERC:50:START:0:PEAK:3050:END:20000]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:3050:NONE:REQUIRED]
and there is your answers.
Post by: Podesta on June 09, 2017, 02:06:06 am
Post by: Balgias on August 05, 2017, 09:13:18 am
(http://i.imgur.com/znUXqAN.jpg)
Post by: LMeire on August 05, 2017, 12:18:43 pm
Post by: Balgias on August 05, 2017, 06:13:00 pm
I'm not sure what you mean, are you confused about how to upgrade your guilds/markets?
The current version of the mod doesn't advertise universities, illumination, council, military garrison, ect ect
Post by: LMeire on August 05, 2017, 07:55:56 pm
Post by: Balgias on August 08, 2017, 04:16:18 am
Did you check the furnaces section? That's where Meph puts the more academic/arcane stuff.
I don't see anything like that in the furnaces section.
Note: I've also not yet been offered to become a barony, despite my 1.4mill created wealth, and I've also only ever been invaded by night creatures ??? I embarked on a map with atleast 9 or so other hostile civs nearby, what gives?
Post by: Amostubal on August 08, 2017, 08:35:27 am
I think you are looking at an old planned graphic that never fully got finished. pretty much if you can't find it in the build list it never made it in or it has been removed long before I came along.
Post by: burrito25man on August 09, 2017, 03:11:48 pm
Did you check the furnaces section? That's where Meph puts the more academic/arcane stuff.
I don't see anything like that in the furnaces section.
Note: I've also not yet been offered to become a barony, despite my 1.4mill created wealth, and I've also only ever been invaded by night creatures ??? I embarked on a map with atleast 9 or so other hostile civs nearby, what gives?
That graphic was for the legacy 34.11 version of masterwork. If memory serves, the humans there should have those buildings. Same goes for the barony thing.
Post by: Saeldanya on August 24, 2017, 09:08:23 pm
Like the person above, I've only ever (10 years, 3 different fortresses) been invaded by night creatures. Nothing and no one else. Twice I got the message 'an army is invading from the north!) but no army actually showed up. I've also never been offered to become a barony so that might have something to do with it.
Funny thing is, my human civ is at war with another human civ and THE VERY INSTANT I retire a fortress and a baron / nobles are appointed it starts to get sieged by other humans like crazy. Like, the very next month (this happened with both my retired fortresses, both the same human civ). Sieges about twice a year.
I enjoyed my humans immensely, BUT: the inability to join a garrison, coupled with the harsh exp penalty for combat skills without garrisons, was too harsh in my opinion. Dwarves get to become legionnaires, why don't humans? I spent year after year training up my soldiers in a library and it was soooooo much micromanagement to get them anywhere. Sure, the standard guilds offer some xp bonus to some skills, but that's more micromanagement and afaik you can only get one combat skill boost from a guild. Also no stat boosts. Seriously, humans need garrisons.
I also found the guild skill boosts to not be intuitive at all. Why do farmer guild members not get any grower skill bonus? Or clothiers no clothesmaking skill bonus? And merchants get 3 different weapon skills... huh. This was very confusing. I ended up not using the guilds at all.
That said, the tech tree was super awesome, lots to discover and something refreshingly different from vanilla dwarf mode.
Just my 2 cents in case someone wants to keep working on the mod at some point in the future.
Post by: LMeire on August 26, 2017, 10:43:57 am
After 10 ingame years of human mode... some observations:
Like the person above, I've only ever (10 years, 3 different fortresses) been invaded by night creatures. Nothing and no one else. Twice I got the message 'an army is invading from the north!) but no army actually showed up. I've also never been offered to become a barony so that might have something to do with it.
Funny thing is, my human civ is at war with another human civ and THE VERY INSTANT I retire a fortress and a baron / nobles are appointed it starts to get sieged by other humans like crazy. Like, the very next month (this happened with both my retired fortresses, both the same human civ). Sieges about twice a year.
I enjoyed my humans immensely, BUT: the inability to join a garrison, coupled with the harsh exp penalty for combat skills without garrisons, was too harsh in my opinion. Dwarves get to become legionnaires, why don't humans? I spent year after year training up my soldiers in a library and it was soooooo much micromanagement to get them anywhere. Sure, the standard guilds offer some xp bonus to some skills, but that's more micromanagement and afaik you can only get one combat skill boost from a guild. Also no stat boosts. Seriously, humans need garrisons.
I also found the guild skill boosts to not be intuitive at all. Why do farmer guild members not get any grower skill bonus? Or clothiers no clothesmaking skill bonus? And merchants get 3 different weapon skills... huh. This was very confusing. I ended up not using the guilds at all.
That said, the tech tree was super awesome, lots to discover and something refreshingly different from vanilla dwarf mode.
Just my 2 cents in case someone wants to keep working on the mod at some point in the future.
1) That's probably a vanilla feature, armies have to travel from one of their sites to reach you. If you're out of the way, on a different landmass, or if they just decide to take a shortcut through a terrifying jungle filled with undead, nobody will be able to reach you. It also might be that you're being invaded, but everyone that shows up is too stealthy to be seen unless until a fortress member bumps into them. Try pasturing some cats outside along the edge of the map as bait.
2) Also a vanilla feature, AI forts attack eachother at random as soon as the rumor mill mentions that a target exists, but with player forts there's some extra settings that keep them from jumping the gun, namely your exported wealth and population.
4) The guilds work fine ingame, Dwarf Therapist is just bugged and displays the wrong skill boosts.
Post by: Saeldanya on August 26, 2017, 03:49:50 pm
For my new game I chose a near extinct dwarven civ that's already at war with succubi. Should be !FUN! :D
Post by: ZM5 on August 27, 2017, 10:29:08 am
I've noticed that too when I was meddling with my own mod - a race with only one active season wouldn't even show up even if the population triggers were reached - lowering the population triggers and making them active in all seasons did however seem to help atleast a bit - I got ambushes so that's a start.
Post by: Saeldanya on August 28, 2017, 07:52:31 am
This is just a suspicion, but I think there's an issue with humans related to the fact that they never get offered barony status. It's like other civs don't fully recognize the existence of the player fort until it is retired, though they do send caravans. Wild animals, megabeasts and *mancers do (those are the ones who always showed up for !FUN!), but not actual civs. It's not just me, another person above had the same experience.
Possibly related (or not):
My human adventurer belonging to the same civ couldn't sleep at a retired, fully inhabited human fort. Got the 'you cannot rest until you leave this site' message. While inside the inn!
In adventure mode, no one had anything at all to say about that (very recently retired) human fortress, not even if they were close by. People only talked about my older forts that had been retired for several years or longer, even if those forts were much farther away. If I tried asking about it, the name never came up in the menu. The fort in question was my wealthiest and most long-lived by far.
If anyone played humans with the current, modified version for 43.05 and actually got sieged by something other than tower inhabitants, please speak up!
Post by: meryilla on August 28, 2017, 03:41:14 pm
Post by: Herodian on July 20, 2018, 03:37:04 pm
So, what's going on with human-mode? Any idea whether the problem with not being sieged or interacted with posted above is resolved or even if it was a real thing?
Post by: Herodian on July 31, 2018, 07:52:28 am
I feel like guild membership should be more common, since it's really the main gimmick of humans, along with guns (Which I think would be more appropriately built at a workshop rather than bought; If guns are the human thing, bought from them by other civilizations, it only makes sense for them to be craftable within the settlement).
I'm not an experienced modder, but I'm happy to try to get something working to resolve those issues, if other folks agree with my thinking on what's wrong.
Post by: pirotitan on November 13, 2018, 03:55:32 pm
I have built my first human fortress and it is slowly leading early into its third year. I have set up a Bladesman squad militia in the fort in preparation for the succubus baby snatchers and barbaric orchish raids endemic to my region that may show up soon, or so the histories describe. (wealth going up quickly due to some artifacts including a Orchalcum Piston that is worth more than the rest of my fort combined (and also didnt improve the smithing of the moody weaponsmith?? maybe a bug, but dissapointing))
In any case, I wanted to see if I could pump out some ☼iron musket☼(s) before any raid gets here to hold the fort down at range and have gotten powder created, but I was confused as to how directly to produce the guns themselves - I finally figured out I need a foreign human workshop to build them - but I dont have the Contract (human) to do it.
(I can make cannons and hand cannons through the engineer guild, I would just prefer muskets as I would rather avoid explosions as of yet, too much Fun this early)
I know after a bit of digging that I can get this by telling a liason from a given civ that I will pay top dollar in an import agreement for a Contract (race), however that could take more than a year if I dont call the caravan spammingly like a talkative in-law.
The Image included in Masterwork that explains (somewhat) the guilds for humans says above the Human Workshop (foreign) and Human Merchant (foreign) that "You can make the human lisence yourself ;)" however I have yet to find the source on how to do that online or in the image/game.
Could someone explain how to make said Contract (human)?
EDIT: Wait. I found out. I started a new world to test and brought a few on enbark, and then realised that they can be made of any material. I didnt realise that the contract would literally just be a craft item... So for anyone wondering, to make the Contract (human) you need to go to a craft shop, like a forge or craftsman's shop and make it like you would any trade item. its a normal item you can make like a -dog bone ring- or *willow wood statue of a human*... welp, I suppose it was just that easy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zlorthishen on November 17, 2018, 07:55:31 am
just go to a craftsman's workshop and make one out of wood or rock.
Post by: Sanctume on January 29, 2019, 11:43:19 am
Rough logs, sure used it for the first building so I can get inside rooms and put beds.
But damn if I'm going to use it for city wall.
I did 50% slow calendar, so I am only in Autumn of my first year.
1. What's the fastest way to make blocks? I have carpenter making rough logs to planks, but is it a 1:1 ratio? It's slow.
2. Stone blocks sounds good, but I embarked on an aquifer, so no immediate stone quarry yet.
3. How do I make steel weapons/armors? I embarked with limonite, and marble. I can't find a metalsmith forge, or smelters. WTF?!
4. I hated making cheesy spiked balls to trade, nor make wood craft clutter. How do I get this make money via trade thing for humans work in early game?
Post by: Splint on January 29, 2019, 12:50:56 pm
2. You'll probably be better served with "traditional" mining and make sure the miners come topside to sleep and such to counter the claustrophobia/cave adaptation. Not really able to do an open quarry with an aquifer, unless the water freezes in the area in the winter.
3. Sounds like a bug, though I think for humans the north Smith's guild addon handles alloys. But you should still have access to the regular metal smith forge and smelters.
4. You need coins. Gold, silver, and copper, depending on what you need from the basic stalls, but for guildhouses and extensions you can only use gold. The merchant's guild's north extension handles exchange of different denominations. At the basic stalls you can also sell raw materials - in your case, you can probably sell wood to get some starter funds. And look at the bright side, at least trap parts aren't as insanely valuable as a barrel of meat and lard mashed together. You won't be buying out a caravan with three spiked balls like you will three barrels of prepared meals.
Post by: Sanctume on January 29, 2019, 01:48:29 pm
I'm embarked with 12 in a dying civ name "The Dead Kingdom'.
One founder was a Squire and I find that pretty cool that he was useless from the start with no labors except train.
I did not see any Carpenter's Guild. Maybe I need to unlock it somehow?
I did see Mason Guild and Merchant Guild in the b-w build workshops menu.
Just no b-w-f for metalsmith's forge, and no sub menu for list of smelters / magma smelters.
Question of mining. I notice carving stairs keep the stairs "inside and no light". If I channel a few stairs at a time to expose the z-level to light, I can construct to have "inside" and "light" rooms -- will that counter Human mining debuffs?
Post by: Splint on January 29, 2019, 04:16:53 pm
It takes a bit for the adaptation to set in - I've been able to get what I need just fine with 2-3 miners and just getting what I need when I need it. Besides, so long as you don't make the workers live underground they'll take care of countering it themselves when they come up to eat and sleep.
And the guildhall starts as an empty one, you have to pay to set up a guild (costs gold coins,) and then pay further coin for the extensions you need or want.
Post by: Sanctume on January 30, 2019, 11:41:54 am
So I embarked with some native gold and minted stacks of 500 coins.
I build a Guildhall (6 blocks, 4 chairs).
After this, I bought Engineer Guild. I think it costs 500 or 1000 coins.
Then the confusing part. How do I use this Mint Coin?
I think I bought Mint Coin (n). I realize n means north in this case.
I bought it 2x not realizing that I can build the north 3x7 section (3 blocks?).
At this time, I am out of gold coins (because I started another Guildhall for Masons).
So I am not sure what to expect from the Mint Coin.
How do I mint coin?
Is this going to be workshop building that I can act like a smelter giving it an input of native gold ores?
Re: Food.
So do I make farmplots like normal, then Kitchen and Still?
I do not quite get how a Farming guild will function. Or is this just extra flavor like some fancy kitchen and fancy still later in the game?
Post by: Splint on January 30, 2019, 12:59:38 pm
Food is done the normal way, though the farmer's guild handles things that I think the screw press is used for by the dwarves, as well as thatchery, poison application, and apparently, according to the manual, breeding dogs (presumably similar to the kobold breeding warren.)
Manual answers a lot of this stuff, so might be a good idea to address it before posting (I've just been checking to verify before responding.)
Post by: Sanctume on February 04, 2019, 12:23:12 pm
1. `b-w-i` Splitting Block workshop is 1x3 in size, use for converting 1 stone boulder into 10 rock blocks.
2. Splitting block requires Stone Craft labor enabled, not Mason labor.
3. In order to gain coins [500], build Merchant Stalls out of 3 rock blocks.
4. Merchant Stall - select the merchant you can to Sell to.
Bringing battle axe can get fell trees in early game, so you can sell 10 rough logs for 500 coins.
Or you can sell 2 feather wood (Good Biome only) logs for 500 coins.
Evil Biome only logs sell for more, as well as some of the deep cavern fungus logs.
5. Questions: What labor is allowed to sell to Merchant Stalls? Is it just the Broker? Assigned Bureaucrat positions too? Or anyone?
If I sell threads and cloths to the Merchant Stall - Textile; does the person need Weaving skill enabled?
After obtaining stacks of coins, a little micro-management is needed.
6. `b-w-Ctrl+g` Build Guildhall (7x7) using blocks (wood planks don't work) plus 4 chairs/thrones (early carpenter shop using rough logs, or mason workshop using boulders).
7. `q` Select what type of Guildhall (Merchant's Guild) for coins (500 or 1000 not sure).
8. Assign a Manager in noble screen if you have not done so.
9. `q-P` Profile the Guildhall, and Assign One specific person yo want to join the Merchant's Guild for 500 coins.
10. `q` Guildhall, Join Guild for 500 coins, and the one assigned profile will go there and become a guild member.
Remove the guild member from the profile list, and assigned the next person you want to join the guild member.
Now here is where I messed up, or was just confused. And this was how I successfully upgraded the Guildhall.
11. `b-w-Ctrl+n` Build Guildhall Extension North (cost 3 blocks). I put this 3x7 north of the Guildhall, but I read that it can be placed elsewhere.
12. `q` on the Guildhall, select buy Extension North (costs 1000? coins), after this, will enable the North Extension.
13. `q` on the North Extension, select the available type of workshop this North Extension is (costs 500? coins).
Ok, so far, so good.
Question: How or where or what menu, do I buy "contracts"?
Manual says I can get it from caravans. I built a Trade Depot, and traded as normal. But there is no option to buy contracts.
I built the Guild Hall - Merchant's Guild (North and West), and it does not have the option to buy contracts either.
Post by: Splint on February 04, 2019, 12:39:41 pm
Contracts are tool items purchased from caravans.
They'll probably be around the bottom of the list, or under leather and cloth the caravans bring, near the ammo. I don't recall which. Human contracts can also be made by a craftsman at a standard crafting workshop if memory serves, which provides both firearms and ammunition, as well as halberds, bulk loads of fine building materials (obsidian or marble,) or the somewhat expensive option of getting random contracts of other races, so if you want something specific (for example, succubus or orc contracts in a location where you can't really call them,) then you can get potentially get them for an admittedly steep 5000 gold coins.
Makes me think a human fort is in order. Last one I was did I lost the save to, which was rather unfortunate.
Post by: Sanctume on February 04, 2019, 01:03:41 pm
Re: Mining.
So far, the only mining I do are:
1. Shallow dry moat.
2. Well and pipe and "bath tub" .
3. And garbage pit.
My next project is to excavate the footprint of my central castle and build simultaneously up and down as I channel expose the foundations so my dungeons will be outside-light tiles.
Post by: JAK on March 09, 2019, 12:04:12 am
Is there some step I'm just missing?
EDIT: I have also verified that no funny business is afoot with either burrows or stockpile links.
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 13, 2019, 03:38:24 am
Three options:
- You mint your own coins, aka mine gold, smelt gold bars and forge gold coins in the vanilla forge. Just like vanilla DF.
- You rent out workshops, aka you buy a "trade licence"-tool from a caravan, build a trader (foreign) and rent it out. Not very efficient.
- You sell stuff, aka you build a trader (local), get some resources/items and sell them. The best way.
Are any of these up for revision? I've been looking into applications to enrich humans in vanilla in a watered down way with commerce going back and forth between reactions (though a list of where roses's scripts for you could be found would be helpful if i learnt how to apply some merchant shops abstractly) drawing upon inspiration from masterwork, though its still rather bare bones for commercial exchanges.
- With Masterwork's relevant update to the newer version (opening up new opportunities to steal objects by raiding etc), unless for the sake of ease of letting players craft contracts could much of the reagents where possible be upgraded to their 0.44 counterparts like quires = contracts? Or are the scripts too deep set to take any different lists of items?
- Secondly what is your standing position on cash crops in order to generate profit, given that it is easy in vanilla circumstances to make seperate file categories especially for plants that don't exist in the wild (I use these for elf crafting, a mixture of plants and seeds to reach reaction outcomes) to have seeds generated by workshop reactions and add a commercial pricetag in bulk for gold, silver, or coppers regarding renewable farming which is limiting of the maximum amount of food and seeds you can have at any one time.
Post by: Fewah on October 14, 2021, 10:06:13 pm
How do you get guns? I start the mod with the most recent version and cannot select any Guns on embark or even find the ammo.
Once I'm in-game I've tried finding the gunsmith workshop and there's nothing?
Additionally, how do I get guns as dwarves?
Thanks
Post by: Artwr on October 26, 2021, 10:58:04 pm
Sorry to Necro this, but I don't know where else to ask this....
How do you get guns? I start the mod with the most recent version and cannot select any Guns on embark or even find the ammo.
Once I'm in-game I've tried finding the gunsmith workshop and there's nothing?
Additionally, how do I get guns as dwarves?
Thanks
Probably on the shops and/or guilds. You have to use the trading and guild developing system, with gold coins and such, to get them (with the humans).
I never played with dwarfs on this mod, but you just created the will to do so.
I never played with the dwarves in Masterwork, but now I'm