Post by: Toady One on February 22, 2011, 07:05:03 am
Any comments about the format, content, quality, etc. of the call are welcome. The voices on the other end were a little quiet so I hard-limited a little more than usual. Might make it sound a little stuffy. We ended up with a segment on personalities, some Q&A and lots of rambling on the upcoming releases, partly as a result of the editing delay (so there were some now-irrelevant things that I cut).
Ask questions via email (see this thread) (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=44597.0)!
edit: The transcripts by mallocks have been posted, available at the DF Talk page or here: Transcript (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_11_transcript.html)
Post by: Dante on February 22, 2011, 08:18:40 am
Yeah, the sound's pretty echoey.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: blizzerd on February 22, 2011, 08:22:01 am
also too bad you cut parts, i really like the voice sound of these people it is very calming
Post by: de5me7 on February 22, 2011, 11:22:12 am
Proud - Humble : a high proud score would make a character less interested in others views, and less easily influenced, but also unliked.
Elitist - empathetic : a high elitist score would make a character not like: other races, other civs, other professions, and possibly members of other families.
extrovert - introvert: introvert would make a better craftsman, and be made happy by doing craft work, extrovert would be more socially proficient
driven - appathetic : pretty self explanitory
materialistic - unmaterialistic : as above
conservative - impressionable: very conservative does not change in characteristics as easily as impressionable
Violent - pacifistic : how much fighting a character wants
each character could have a scale between 1-10 for each. The point on the scale could be shifted by events/circumstances. Either in game activity could key of the scales or tags could be come available when the scales are appropriate. e.g. if a character has driven of 8+, proud 7+, Elitist 6+ he or she would be allowed to gain the 'desires power tag'. Either the tag could be randomly triggered or event triggered. If in power, they could look for routes such as war, to extend their power. If not in power they could look for opportunities to cease power. To prevent lots of characters getting the 'desires power tag' your environment, possibly some genes etc would need to deterimine the characters stats sliders. So being of noble birth, having parents with high pride stats etc, having a few successes (e.g. killing something hard, forging an artifact), being elected or promoted to a position of influence, all could raise a characters proud and driven stats. Others such as extrovert and impressionable could determine (in terms of stats changes) the reaction of a character to an event. So if a dorf creates an artifact, if hes introvert, his driven may increase, but proud may stay level or decrease, as he's less prone to boast or seek recogintion from others. If hes very impressionable his stats may move more than if hes conservative. Being very impressionable could also cause his stats to be determined by his friends to an extent.
Post by: RedWick on February 22, 2011, 11:33:05 am
Post by: cameron on February 22, 2011, 11:54:15 am
Post by: Argembarger on February 22, 2011, 12:03:02 pm
Post by: Rumrusher on February 22, 2011, 12:28:10 pm
Post by: helf on February 22, 2011, 01:05:58 pm
Post by: Lord Herman on February 22, 2011, 01:19:10 pm
Post by: dorf on February 22, 2011, 01:49:41 pm
Post by: Immacolata on February 22, 2011, 01:51:33 pm
Post by: Jiri Petru on February 22, 2011, 03:18:59 pm
It was still a pleasant thing to hear, and I'm grateful (thank you!). I just feel the number of "new content" is DF talks is gradually getting lower and lower.
Post by: darkrider2 on February 22, 2011, 03:23:13 pm
I really want to listen to this...
edit: ~problem solved! this is awesome
Post by: Capntastic on February 22, 2011, 04:19:33 pm
I think we're at the point, 11 DF Talks in, where the hosts should start moderating a bit more actively. Toady has a tendency to ramble and "waste" time explaining things all over, and there's also an increasing tendency to speak about things that were already covered in previous DF talks or forum posts.
I prefer a more natural mode of just free-talkin', but I can appreciate a more structured format. I'll note that even organizing the Q&As and discussion topics with a sort of idea of what we'll be talking about requires a good amount of effort and 'off-screen' pauses while we try to figure out what we still need to cover. As we edge into our second year, I'd be willing to experiment a bit to strike a good balance.
Edit: There's a cool Easter Egg during the discussion about the eyeball grass; Capntastic makes a dumb joke and there's a very tangible awkward pause! Things like Capntastic making bad jokes and mistakes in general are called called 'breaking character'.
Post by: newbonomicon on February 22, 2011, 04:29:37 pm
Post by: Untelligent on February 22, 2011, 04:43:39 pm
Post by: Naros on February 22, 2011, 05:05:41 pm
I really enjoyed the chemistry when the three of you are all interacting.
It affects the pace and direction in a positive manner, so while I really enjoy these talks, I'd rather wait a bit longer until you guys can get your schedules all lined up.
The sound quality (echo, difference in levels for the different speakers, etc) was indeed subpar. I found it a bit bothersome at some points.
As for the mentioned rambling, on the whole that's enjoyable. There's only a few occasions where it becomes 'too much'.
And finally, subject wise I'd prefer a more indepth talk, rather than referencing different aspects and Arcs more shallowly.
Thanks! Much love,
Naros
edit: The reason I didn't mention the music, is because it's all positive. <3
Post by: Armok on February 22, 2011, 05:09:20 pm
@ the ongoing discussion: I love the editing and style. The combination of soothing music, tarns fantastic voice and it's oh so calm and steady pace, the causual and a bit rambling conversations... it's amazingly destressing and soothing and calming. It'd be great for meditation and stuff I think actualy.
Anywya, so i were taking notes while I were listening but I'm a bit to lazy and a bit to stressed out to actualy sort throguth all of it and checking so it's apropriate, So I'll just dump it in a spoiler for people to comen on:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
is it posible to get just the music, in full, somehow?
Post by: nenjin on February 22, 2011, 05:54:46 pm
That said, the personality bit felt a little....light in this Talk. But it sounds like it's a big issue with huge implications (that tends to send Toady off track or stuttering, I'm sure as he internally processes all the schtuff he'd like to do), so I'm mostly satisfied, knowing we'll be moving away from satisfying happiness, and moving toward just dealing with the outcomes of personality gen vs. events.
Excited to hear about ruins. Hoping that all gets rolled into the rumor function, so it reports more rumor-like stuff and less random information about world gen personalities.
Also, bubbles.
Post by: JohnieRWilkins on February 22, 2011, 07:00:39 pm
If the next episode is all about adventurer sheep ranches I'll buy an mp3 player just so I can put the podcast on repeat and listen to capn's soothing voice instead of the lullaby channel while driving.
Also, I watched two of the indiana jones movies over the weekend as a coincidence before listening to the cast and I heard someone singing the indiana jones theme. That's awesome. We require more singing!
Post by: nenjin on February 22, 2011, 07:39:52 pm
Post by: Eagle_eye on February 22, 2011, 07:40:28 pm
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 22, 2011, 07:47:59 pm
Post by: mallocks on February 22, 2011, 07:51:56 pm
Post by: monk12 on February 22, 2011, 09:28:06 pm
Now back to the bees!
Post by: Sunday on February 22, 2011, 10:32:08 pm
And thanks mallocks!
Post by: Neonivek on February 23, 2011, 02:56:58 am
Especially since Toady, Cap, and Rainseeker have an incredible ability to repeat things they already said multiple times (It is starting to get pretty bad).
Though it is probably just because I am sleepy
Anyhow I don't mind the ramblings as a whole and I wouldn't like to see the tangent go.
I'll comment more when I am not so sleepy. Afterall I am probably just talking out of exhaustion.
Post by: Toady One on February 23, 2011, 03:05:16 am
Post by: Rip0k on February 23, 2011, 06:45:39 am
...as to rambling, I wouldn't mind if We were to get "Dwarf Fortress Ramble #1", and then more and more of those, without much editing. Then maybe those recordings could reach us more often, apart of the "Talks", where specific questions are answered and therefore must to be worked on, edited and sorted out.
Post by: Jiri Petru on February 23, 2011, 06:56:39 am
When Toady speaks, there's usually lots of point that could use more explanation or that hint at fantastic possibilities but leave them unexplained. Toady probably doesn't realise if he describes something too superficially, because he already has everything in his head. But I would appreciate the moderators coming up with questions like: "Wait, does this mean that..." or "And how does feature X interact with feature Y?", things like that. "You're saying goblins do not need to eat now - are they supposed to eat in the future?" Doing an interview isn't asking a list of prepared questions, and isn't what I meant. A good interviewer listens to the interviewed person and identifies points that could use more spotlight.
Or in other words: a bit more interaction between the three (or two) of you guys would made the talk more lively, and I believe more interesting.
Post by: hermes on February 23, 2011, 11:00:05 am
Yeah, I like the rambling.
Me too, and having it in two sections works well. And the Blade Runner quote was awesome.
Post by: kylcarte on February 23, 2011, 12:05:08 pm
This brings up the question of sellable/exportable maps. In dwarf mode, if maps are a top export of your fortress, perhaps you would draw more (and more skillful) immigrants, maybe even drawing from dwarven civilizations other than your own, along with a higher risk of invasion, or looting, or whatever. Fame has its benefits and its costs.
Post by: Neonivek on February 23, 2011, 04:06:29 pm
Thanks Rainseeker, Cap, and Toady for another Dwarf Fortress Talk.
Post by: Knight Otu on February 23, 2011, 04:42:01 pm
Post by: Neonivek on February 23, 2011, 04:51:14 pm
The game already assumes your characters are fearless, or essentially fearless, in dungeons and dragons hense why being trapped in a box with spiders doesn't cause fear.
Though I wouldn't mind creatures with unnatural fear causing effects in Dwarf Fortress especially with some of the creatures.
Post by: Lac on February 23, 2011, 05:33:43 pm
Post by: myrkul on February 23, 2011, 10:01:18 pm
"A person is no different to a tree, if they are doing treelike things."
Well, other than the ability to choose NOT to do tree-like things...
Post by: Mel_Vixen on February 23, 2011, 10:13:16 pm
Post by: malimbar04 on February 24, 2011, 12:02:14 am
Back on topic, trees *cough*
I mean the podcast is much appreciated. I don't really have any critiques as I wasn't looking for them, but it was enjoyable to listen to.
Post by: Capntastic on February 24, 2011, 01:03:22 am
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2011, 01:09:14 am
Realistically, Toady should be using D&D as a map of what-to-do-the-opposite-of.
There are some things dungeons and dragons does well and other things it does so horribly that I am surprised they get away with it.
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2011, 02:59:08 am
Realistically, Toady should be using D&D as a map of what-to-do-the-opposite-of.In most cases, yes. And normal fear in DF should not be like D&D's fear mechanic. But it's a pretty good mechanic for supernatural fear, and if Toady ever wants to go that route, it's not a bad jumping-off point.
But honestly, I only see supernatural fear as being something that would effect normal fear rolls, making enemy formations more likely to break and flee in battle, and stuff like that.
Post by: Capntastic on February 24, 2011, 03:11:07 am
Post by: Knight Otu on February 24, 2011, 08:00:29 am
Realistically, Toady should be using D&D as a map of what-to-do-the-opposite-of.Mechanically, sure, for the most part. DF really does not want classes, levels, or hit points. Conceptually and flavorwise, much of that, too. It surely doesn't want drow elves worshiping spiders or scorpions as a default race (though mods should be able to add them, and perhaps they might be able to arise procedurally). But trying to avert all things that D&D does whether flavor-wise, mechanically, or concept-wise, would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater in my opinion. D&D has done about everything fantasy-related, up to including science fiction, and what it hasn't done, another TSR or Wizards brand surely has.
I understand the sentiment - Dwarf Fortress is its own game, and should (and will!) stay that way. Not a copy of D&D, GURPS, or The Dark Eye. But the question should be "Is it a good idea for Dwarf Fortress?" The D&D mention from me was incidental to the idea that some kind of fear might work for DF.
Post by: darkrider2 on February 24, 2011, 04:04:14 pm
In adventure mode, I don't think forcing fear onto the player's character is a good idea at all, it's the player that should be afraid, not his character. There are no vita-chambers in adventure mode, it's actually pretty hardcore, you have to start from the beginning all over again. Losing all that work I put into my character is fear enough for me.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 24, 2011, 06:09:16 pm
Post by: Armok on February 24, 2011, 06:14:34 pm
Post by: ElthMysterius on February 24, 2011, 10:57:38 pm
that give an idea, maybe the PLAYER could set a fear mode that makes some actions harder and some easier.
To be honest, that would prompt most players to use the fear mode (or whichever emotion) to get 'buffs', so to speak. It would turn the emotion system into a set of tools that characters can use to accomplish certain actions, instead of what should be a consequence of what's happening to them.
For exemple, an adventurer shouldn't be afraid because he needs to escape from a dragon. He should be afraid because there's a dragon on his heels, he lost his shield and his pants are on fire. :P
Post by: Ethicalfive on February 25, 2011, 03:57:36 am
Like atleast one other user mentions, I found the lack of depth in mechanics and correlation abit lackluster this time around. At one point the talk put me to sleep (litteraly) which has not happened to me in other talks i've enjoyed listening to.
Personally I think there was not much on novel interesting aspects covered this time around, some talk about the more subtle qualities going on and how they could be improved, so it really didn't grab my attention like normal. Maybe if theres a lack of idea's to cover, discussing some of the communities subjects from the forums(mods, suggestions etc) would be a decent alternative.
I enjoyed the Toady background story very much though!
Please, this isn't a flame, just some feedback that I felt I wanted to share.
Post by: Armok on February 25, 2011, 08:12:28 am
Post by: Deteramot on February 25, 2011, 11:59:38 am
Post by: Lac on February 25, 2011, 03:15:13 pm
I just re-tried the link in the first post and it's fine for me. Under the first err.. mossy stone bar.. you should see:
Dwarf Fortress Talk #11 (posted Feb 22, 2011): Download (1:51:37, 25.5 MB), music by Ollieh
In this episode, Rainseeker, Capntastic and Toady One talk a little about personalities, answer questions, and ramble on at length about the upcoming releases.
With "Download" being the link. Need to clear browser cache?
Post by: Deteramot on February 25, 2011, 05:13:27 pm
Post by: Yobgod on February 26, 2011, 12:42:40 pm
What I keep coming back to as a workable societal concept is hierarchical loyalties.
Scores go from 0 (will risk own life to kill) through 5 (don't care) to 10 (will risk own life to save). Then each character gets a score for every level of life... so, as a start:
Everything
All Life
Sentient Creatures
Own Race
Own Kingdom
Kingdom Rulership
Own Town
Local Rulership
Acquaintances
Close Friends
Family
By default, of course, everything is 5, but this allows for a lot of flexibility in creating interesting loyalties. For example:
Fanatic Local Guards - Mayor:10 Acquaintances:8 Friends:10 Kingdom:7
Elves: Plants:8 Non-sentient animals:8 Elves:8 Sentient creatures:4 [protect everything not smart enough to protect itself]
I'm not sure, but I get the feeling this ends up working better than a generic "empathy" score, because upbringing should (It seems) lead to people who are empathetic(or unempathetic) specifically to their own family/own kind/animals/sacred cats/king/hated foe. So far I haven't thought of a "personality system" this can't cover, and it seems to cover them efficiently.
Post by: myrkul on February 26, 2011, 09:50:09 pm
Quote
Elves: Plants:8 Non-sentient animals:8 Elves:8 Sentient creatures:4 [protect everything not smart enough to protect itself]... which apparently includes Elves. Somehow, fitting.
Post by: Yobgod on February 27, 2011, 12:02:30 pm
Rather than build weird trees of belonging, the first rule that fits applies.
Also considered weird averaging schemes, but they generally aren't worth it.
I do really like the emergent behaviour from this though. Worth sharing.
Post by: jimi12 on March 01, 2011, 04:54:33 pm
Post by: Toady One on March 05, 2011, 03:27:23 am
Post by: Capntastic on March 05, 2011, 05:32:54 am
Post by: Maugrimmau on March 05, 2011, 07:15:36 am
Post by: monk12 on March 05, 2011, 10:06:50 pm
Capntastic: ... Like 'Oh no you lost your leg!'
Toady: Yeah, all traps kind of end your life, so we need to handle that responsibly
I lol'd
Post by: malimbar04 on March 06, 2011, 02:54:32 pm
What to ignore from DnD, and instead take from history - everything else.
Post by: Sunday on March 06, 2011, 05:10:29 pm
As a hearing-impaired DF fan I have enormous appreciation for his efforts. Thanks mallocks.
I have a hard time listening to podcasts, so I really appreciate it as well.