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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Sphalerite on November 03, 2011, 09:52:31 pm

Title: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 03, 2011, 09:52:31 pm
I can't get my desalination plants to not work.

No, that double negative isn't a typo.  I have so far been unable to make a desalination system not work, even when doing everything you aren't supposed to.

My first attempt was in a salty swamp marsh on the shore, with multiple salty murky ponds:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a test of what you aren't supposed to do, I built a cistern directly on bare ground:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and filled it through the pump.  On testing with a water zone, the water was fresh:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This wasn't supposed to work, according to the common knowledge of how desalination works.

I tried again in a new location, again building a floor-less cistern, this time right next to the ocean:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Again, the water was fresh when pumped:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even when I dug out the lower level, making sure the water was in direct contact with raw natural stone as shown:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the water was still fresh:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I did see the strange known bug where water near the ocean could not be raised above the level of the ocean.  Once I dug the floor of the cistern below the surface of the ocean, I could not raise the level of the cistern water above the level of the ocean.  Despite this, and despite being in contact with natural stone and sand walls two tiles away from the ocean, the water was still fresh.

I have since tried this in two more embark sites.  I cannot reproduce the claimed behavior of contact with a natural stone or soil wall or floor turning water salty.  I will attempt a few more times, but I'm starting to think that 'cisterns must have constructed walls and floor' is a superstition with no bearing on reality, similar to the claim that dwarves would stop drinking booze if only one type was available.

The closest I've found to validating this claim is on a seaside embark with an aquifer.  The aquifer is salt water, and if I permit the cistern water to come in contact with the aquifer the cistern turns permanently salty.  If I dig a cistern down to the level of the aquifer, the cistern is salty, but if I dig the cistern down one level shy and fill it by a pump, the cistern is fresh water, despite being in direct contact with sand walls:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Comments?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: acetech09 on November 03, 2011, 10:02:29 pm
I KNOW that water can re-salinate under certain conditions - I kept trying to figure out why my wells weren't being used, until I realized that one of the stairs that the water flows through was carved and not constructed - I drained the cistern, constructed the stairs, and the injured dwarves drank the water fine...

Perhaps certain biomes/conditions don't trigger re-salination, or perhaps that's just a bug you have?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 03, 2011, 10:06:48 pm
I KNOW that water can re-salinate under certain conditions - I kept trying to figure out why my wells weren't being used, until I realized that one of the stairs that the water flows through was carved and not constructed - I drained the cistern, constructed the stairs, and the injured dwarves drank the water fine...

Previous experiments suggest that once a tile has contained salt water, any water in that tile will be salty, so it should be impossible to drain, fix, and rebuild a cistern if it was contaminated.  That might be wrong too, so I'll test it.  Also, wells always yield drinkable water even if they're built over salt water.  I suspect your cistern was never salty, but your well may have needed to be deconstructed and rebuilt before it would work again.

Quote
Perhaps certain biomes/conditions don't trigger re-salination, or perhaps that's just a bug you have?
Perhaps, but I have had the exact same results on 4 different embark sites so far.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Diamond on November 03, 2011, 10:15:37 pm
From my previous investigations, basically how pumps work (at least in 40d, but I doubt Toady changed anything):
They destroy salty water and spawn same amount at the pump output title. When water is spawned a check is made too see if output will be salty, and looks up the parameters of output tile. Therefore you can construct walls (and maybe floor too) of said tile of "good" material and after that you can keep your water supply in cistern of pure salt without it becoming salty.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: acetech09 on November 03, 2011, 10:22:06 pm
I KNOW that water can re-salinate under certain conditions - I kept trying to figure out why my wells weren't being used, until I realized that one of the stairs that the water flows through was carved and not constructed - I drained the cistern, constructed the stairs, and the injured dwarves drank the water fine...

Previous experiments suggest that once a tile has contained salt water, any water in that tile will be salty, so it should be impossible to drain, fix, and rebuild a cistern if it was contaminated.  That might be wrong too, so I'll test it.  Also, wells always yield drinkable water even if they're built over salt water.  I suspect your cistern was never salty, but your well may have needed to be deconstructed and rebuilt before it would work again.

Quote
Perhaps certain biomes/conditions don't trigger re-salination, or perhaps that's just a bug you have?
Perhaps, but I have had the exact same results on 4 different embark sites so far.

I never re-constructed the well... I was under the impression that salt was a contaminant that a well couldn't filter.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 04, 2011, 07:34:28 am
I never re-constructed the well... I was under the impression that salt was a contaminant that a well couldn't filter.

From my experiments, it appears that a well will always be usable no matter what kind of water it is placed over.  The water could be salty or murky yet the well will still work and be usable for producing water.  It seems that dwarves will always drink water out of a well.  I'm going to run some more tests to verify that however.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Quietust on November 04, 2011, 07:41:28 am
DFHack's "probe" tool might be of some use here - every map tile has a flag indicating whether or not it is "salty" (and another one for whether or not it is "stagnant").
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 04, 2011, 08:17:41 am
Mountainhome Times
7th Slade, 1051; 4,50 U

BREAKING NEWS!

Scientists at the Urist's Institute of Technology discover new facts about dwarven engineering principles that very well might change the way the forts are built.

We talked to the leading sciencist, Sphalerite, PhD:
Sph. - "Dwarven construction regulations are riddled with countless superstitions about what can and what cannot be built. Our team set out to work out the real science behind each of these myths. In our latest paper we pretty much invalidated the traditional approach to water desalination plants.
It is my humble opinion that our work might revolutionise the way our forts are constructed, saving time, materials and most likely also countless dwarven lives."

The paper describing the discovery regarding the desalination plants appeared in !!Nature!! two months ago and is already causing a commotion among old-guard fortress overseers and general labour force.

While the overseers try to discredit the discovery as "an elven conspiracy", the miners and masons begin to show their discontent with having been forced to do what they deem "a pointless, yet dangerous job" constructing saline-proof tanks.

Few of the disgruntled groups set out to occupy the booze stockpiles. Forts of Chamberboats, Cloisterbanner and Whippedgranite have since been all but paralysed by the protesters threatening to remain idle and focus their collective efforts on drinking all of the supplies, unless their ill-defined demands are met.

More as the events unfold.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 04, 2011, 12:14:59 pm
DFHack's "probe" tool might be of some use here - every map tile has a flag indicating whether or not it is "salty" (and another one for whether or not it is "stagnant").

Last time I installed DFHack it set off my computer's virus scanners.  Is the current version actually clean and safe to use?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Wannazzaki on November 04, 2011, 12:19:41 pm
DFHack's "probe" tool might be of some use here - every map tile has a flag indicating whether or not it is "salty" (and another one for whether or not it is "stagnant").

Last time I installed DFHack it set off my computer's virus scanners.  Is the current version actually clean and safe to use?

It's always been safe to use. How it edits the running exe causes virus scans to ring sirens. It's all false positive.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 04, 2011, 12:31:25 pm
DFHack's "probe" tool might be of some use here - every map tile has a flag indicating whether or not it is "salty" (and another one for whether or not it is "stagnant").

Last time I installed DFHack it set off my computer's virus scanners.  Is the current version actually clean and safe to use?

It's always been safe to use. How it edits the running exe causes virus scans to ring sirens. It's all false positive.

Unfortunately, that still means I can't use it.  I keep my DF files on a thumb drive that I also use to transfer files at work.  The work machines automatically scan installed media for viruses, and any positive matches get reported to the IT department.  I've already been yelled at once for setting off the virus detector just by having the DFHack files downloaded, even though I wasn't actually using them at the time.

I'm also not completely sure that I trust that it really is a false positive.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: blake77 on November 04, 2011, 12:59:43 pm
I think the current plugin version of DFHack does not trigger the virus scanners.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: cikulisu on November 04, 2011, 02:05:00 pm
DFHack's "probe" tool might be of some use here - every map tile has a flag indicating whether or not it is "salty" (and another one for whether or not it is "stagnant").

Last time I installed DFHack it set off my computer's virus scanners.  Is the current version actually clean and safe to use?

It's always been safe to use. How it edits the running exe causes virus scans to ring sirens. It's all false positive.

Unfortunately, that still means I can't use it.  I keep my DF files on a thumb drive that I also use to transfer files at work.  The work machines automatically scan installed media for viruses, and any positive matches get reported to the IT department.  I've already been yelled at once for setting off the virus detector just by having the DFHack files downloaded, even though I wasn't actually using them at the time.

I'm also not completely sure that I trust that it really is a false positive.

my reply consists of equal parts "then stop putting it on the thumbdrive, hit your IT department they are ridiculous, and yes, it's entirely safe and you are being a ninny."
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 06, 2011, 05:38:23 pm
A quick test of desalination via well:

I embarked on a seaside site, bringing along plenty of wood, some stone, some ropes, food, and no booze.  I verified that activity zones on the oceanside and around the murky pools could not be designated as water sources, indicating that the water was salty, and therefore undrinkable without desalination.

I built half a dozen wells, three along the ocean and three in various murky pools.  All of these wells showed as 'Active', meaning that they were usable as water sources.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note:  I did not set water source zones around the wells.  Activity zones set as water sources are a completely different function than wells.  It is not necessary to set a water source zone around a well, the dwarves will go and use any active and non-forbidden well as a water source.  I did however try setting water source zones around the map to make sure the water was salty.

Very soon after the wells were built, thirsty dwarves began using them to get water:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The content of the buckets showed as 'Water laced with salt':

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Despite the water being salty, the dwarves didn't seem to get any bad thoughts from drinking it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In addition to the well over the murky pool, I also did the same test with buckets set directly over the ocean, with the same results.

I don't know if there are any specific bad thoughts or health effects from drinking salt water for years, other than the general slowdown and increased length and number of breaks from alcohol deprivation.  I also have not tested if salt-water wells are usable as a source of water for prisoners or convalescing injured dwarves yet.  If water from a well is always usable, there's no need to build pump-based desalination systems at all.

It does seem to still be the case that while wells don't desalinate water, dwarves are willing to drink water drawn from a well over a salty water source.  You also can't judge whether a well will be usable by the ability to designate a water source zone around the well.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 06, 2011, 06:31:21 pm
I injured one of the dwarves in the seaside embark, and created a minimalist hospital to treat him with.  Another dwarf went to the well and filled a bucket with salt-laced water to wash his wounds.  When he became thirsty, another dwarf fetched a bucket full of water laced with salt to give him.  He now has the 'received water lately' thought and is no longer thirsty, so it appears that water from a well over an un-desalinated salty water source is perfectly usable to wash wounds and give to thirsty dwarves.

I don't know what long-term effects from using salt water to wash wounds or keep injured from dying of thirst, but it appears that at least in the short term desalination with a screw pump is unnecessary.  You only really need it if you're keeping tigermen or other creatures that need to drink, but won't use a well or drink booze.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 06, 2011, 09:33:43 pm
I find it more hilarious that rock salt reservoirs don't  contaminate water :P
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: astaldaran on November 06, 2011, 11:10:56 pm
Sphalerite,

You've contributed to our understanding...even if we are left confused...time to update the wiki probably--this seems pretty conclusive.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 08, 2011, 09:17:02 pm
Next experiment:  On the permanent contamination of a location by salt.

I built a small desalination plant by the ocean.  This one had a lever-controlled floodgate on the side which permitted the water in it to be dumped to a channel connected to the ocean.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As before, when filled with water with a pump, the cistern was usable as a water source, indicating that the water was not salty.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I opened the floodgate for a moment, allowing water to flow out into the channel.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I then shut the floodgate and refilled the cistern.  Checking the water source zone revealed that the water was now salty.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I then completely deconstructed the cistern, including the walls, floor, pump, door and floodgate.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In order to ensure that no trace of mud or salty water remained, I built a stone floor where the cistern was, then tore up the floor and threw away the stones.  When I was finished the location which had been occupied by the cistern had been physically scrubbed clean of all contamination.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I then rebuilt a new cistern and pump in the same location, and filled it with water.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I then checked the water zone on top of the cistern.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still salty.

Conclusions:

Salt water contamination is essentially instantaneous, and can travel uphill and against the flow of water, so that a cistern that drains into the ocean will become salty.

Once a tile has become salty, it cannot be made unsalty, even if you remove all mud and other contamination and completely replace all structural materials.  It's similar to how once a tile has become light/aboveground, it can never become dark/underground again, even if you build a roof over it.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2011, 09:21:23 pm
.....Resalination plants?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: HollowClown on November 09, 2011, 05:52:23 am
I injured one of the dwarves in the seaside embark, and created a minimalist hospital to treat him with.  Another dwarf went to the well and filled a bucket with salt-laced water to wash his wounds.

Am I the only one who finds this hilarious?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Kamamura on November 10, 2011, 04:35:44 am
It also has important, far-reaching implication. Basically:

That, what has become salty, can never be unsalted again.

It also means that eventually, the whole world will become salty as a herring, incapable of supporting life. Saltiness is like entropy - always increasing.

Therefore, never salt anything voluntarily. Adapt to unsalted diet. Treat salt with utmost care, contain it, guard it, a single madman with a salt shaker can bring the ultimate salty Armageddon closer!
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 10, 2011, 06:36:59 am
Kamamura-sensei, I challenge your teachings!
Can we not decrase salt-tropy by producing obsidian? The new tiles should be salt-free, no? Perhaps even when made from magma+salty water? Another mystery...
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: LilGunmanX on November 10, 2011, 06:49:47 am
Have you tried washing out the area that you tore up with fresh water not from the cistern? Maybe from an outside source of naturally fresh water?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 10, 2011, 08:35:03 am
Can we not decrase salt-tropy by producing obsidian? The new tiles should be salt-free, no? Perhaps even when made from magma+salty water? Another mystery...

An interesting question.  It will take longer to test, as I'll have to build a pump stack to raise magma to the surface.

Have you tried washing out the area that you tore up with fresh water not from the cistern? Maybe from an outside source of naturally fresh water?

If the tiles are salty, then any fresh water that enters them is going to become salty.  I don't expect that it would matter if the water is from another cistern or from a pump output.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Nan on November 23, 2011, 01:14:19 am
I tried some tests for further debunking of desalination myths and to help confirm Sphalerite's results.

I channeled off a section of the beach (channels are a barrier to waves). Behind the channel, I channeled a cistern in the beach (conglomerate), I then pumped water into it.
Result: Fresh

Next I build a cistern - without a constructed floor - on the beach (again, walling off the waves themselves). Result: Fresh.

I also build a cistern with a constructed floor on the beach. In that case I didn't make any special effort to stop the waves, in fact I deliberately watched them wash all over the floor before finishing off the wall and pump. Result: Fresh.

And I build a cistern without a constructed floor in the waviest bloody spot I could find with the waves going right in the front. Result: Fresh.

The walled cisterns all remained fresh permanently (whether or not they had constructed floors).

However the cisterns channeled into the beach, went salty after a short time, even if they were fully sealed in by walls.

I also noticed something weird with pumping on the beach. Sometimes waves would emanate from the pumps even though the pump output had no possible way to escape (I suspect it is these "pump waves" or related breaches of physics which re-salinate fully-sealed dug out reservoirs on beaches).

Here's an image of my horribly messy testing setup:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What I particularly want to draw your attention to is the little reservoir on the far left; now I couldn't fill that one because it was under the influence of beach-physics, the beach seems to function as an aquifer which doesn't produce water, but does absorb pressurized water, so if you channel into the beach, water on top of the beach will drain into the channels. But the funny thing is, the water in the channel itself, is still fresh, that is a fresh water cistern. In other words, even contact with the beach-pseudo-aquifer - even in fact being stored in the beach-pseudo-aquifer - isn't sufficient to re-salinate water.

On the right side of the screen, the small walled-reservoirs on the beach are all perfectly fresh water, in spite of the fact that I filled them, removed the pumps, let them drain, let the waves wash through them, rebuilt the pumps and finally re-filled them. They remained fresh. Waves seem to have no ability at all to contaminate on their own z-level - they need to go down a channel (and "manifest" as real salt water) to do this.

So I concluded that water only re-salinates when it contacts genuinely existing salty water. I went out to test this further and confirm Sphalerite's result:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a perfectly fresh water cistern. Now my hypothesis was, when I opened the floodgate, the fresh water would flow out, contact salty water, and the saltiness, like electrical current, would propagate back into the reservoir. This turned up to be exactly what happened, when the fresh water stream hit the salt water, the whole reservoir turned salty. However, it wasn't sufficient for the fresh water stream to merely touch the waves, it was only when I dug out a channel bringing salt water nearer to the drain, that a "genuine water" connection could be made. It seems that waves by themselves are utterly harmless.
And I also repeat my earlier results, that I managed to empty small, 2x2 and 1x1 reservoirs and refill them without them being contanemated, even though the water drained into saltwater channels. I believe what must have happened there is that the fresh water quickly spread out to less than 3/7 depth before contacting the salt water. It is likely that two bodies of water need to be connected by at least 3/7 water before they count as the same body of water allowing saltiness to propagate.

So it seems that the only two critical things, is to avoid digging cisterns into the beach (this should be common sense), although building cisterns ON the beach is fine, and avoid letting the body of fresh water contact a body of salty water. Other than that, it seems you can dig or build your desalination cisterns wherever and however you like.

I also noticed some funny things with waves. Waves seem to propagate line-of-sight from the ocean. A straight horizontal mine shaft, going across the map and entering the ocean (at the highest water layer of the ocean), produced waves (and mist) on the floors of a chamber at the far end, 3 embark tiles away from the ocean in a different biome. Sadly though the mist didn't make the dwarves happy.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sutremaine on November 23, 2011, 03:05:36 pm
An interesting question.  It will take longer to test, as I'll have to build a pump stack to raise magma to the surface.
Why not use DFliquids to spawn water and magma well above a pre-built container? If you create water directly on a tile it doesn't interact with the tile properly (it doesn't make it muddy), but any subsequent liquid movement is handled as though the water was put in the original tile using in-game means.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: ZzarkLinux on November 23, 2011, 03:15:44 pm
Have you tried involving SOAP in the mix?

I had a ocean fortress recently where I had a reservoir working with no well.
It worked for a little bit, but then for some reason the dwarves stopped using it.

I noticed that there was the typical "blood smear" next to the reservoir, so I assume the soap somehow contaminated it.
Not sure though
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: khearn on November 23, 2011, 06:16:47 pm
Good science, Sphalerite!
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 23, 2011, 08:38:23 pm
Excellent work, Nan.  It's good to have independent confirmation of my results.  I had been wondering if ocean waves could contaminate a freshwater cistern.

I've seen the beach pseudo-aquifer behavior as well.  It appears that near the ocean any tile of water that is at the same Z-level as the topmost level of water contained in the ocean can absorb an infinite amount of water from above.  This appears to be a hack to make the ocean act as an infinite sink of water, but it also makes any water on the map at ocean level act as an infinite sink, even if that water is completely isolated from the ocean.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: urick on November 23, 2011, 09:20:19 pm
Is all the testing happening at the beach? I embarked on a salty river, we all died of thirst and I built desalinization cistern upon my reclamation, with success.

 
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Torit on November 24, 2011, 04:01:27 am
I have just recently embarked onto a salt-water biome with an ocean, and have tried multiple times to get a clean desalinated source of water but I haven't managed to desalinate water anywhere on the map. I think I might be doing something wrong? I've tried making a channel to the ocean to fill it with water, then next to that I've been placing the screw pump to pump the water into a 4x1 cistern which has a constructed floor and constructed walls. The pumped water was still salty.
I then tried pumping the water straight form the ocean, with no channeling, into a new cistern of the same shape. Still salty.

I'm still relatively new to this game so I have no idea what I'm doing wrong after reading the wiki page for this and it's frustrating that the OP is getting fresh water so easily.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on November 24, 2011, 08:59:32 am
Can you post screenshots or upload a save of your fortress so we can see what's going on?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Cellmonk on December 20, 2011, 03:51:00 am
I never re-constructed the well... I was under the impression that salt was a contaminant that a well couldn't filter.

From my experiments, it appears that a well will always be usable no matter what kind of water it is placed over.  The water could be salty or murky yet the well will still work and be usable for producing water.  It seems that dwarves will always drink water out of a well.  I'm going to run some more tests to verify that however.

Edit: Oops. This was an accidental post from when I tried to quote this for another page. Please disregard. Is there a way to delete accidental post?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Lyceq on December 20, 2011, 02:30:05 pm
In an effort to preserve knowledge and save newbies time (from constructed cisterns), I think the wiki needs to be updated. Hopefully I'm not being premature with this since there has been a peer review from Nan.

In order to help start the effort, here is a list of relevant pages and the updates they need.

 - Screw pump (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Screw_Pump): Update info about needing constructed cisterns.
 - Well (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Well): Add information about using saltwater and the ocean as sources.
 - Well Guide (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Well_guide): The well guide seems to already mention wells ignoring salinity. The Water Sources - Ocean section mentions needing constructed cisterns when using pumps.
 - Water (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Water#Salt_Water): It looks like the salt water section was updated with a link to this thread. The way I read it, the section is stating that dwarfs receive unhappy thoughts from drinking salty water from the well. This is contrary to what Sphalerite posted earlier.
 - Reservoir (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Reservoir): Contains accurate information, but could use more complete details.
 - Ocean (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Ocean): The waves section needs the information Nan discovered.
 - Aquifer (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Aquifer): Does not contain information about desalinating and should probably stay that way.

Any other pages that need updating?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: jcnorris00 on December 20, 2011, 05:45:29 pm
I can't believe this thread has made it to page three and still no one has asked if MAGMA will scrub a tile clean of salt.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 20, 2011, 05:48:06 pm
I can't believe this thread has made it to page three and still no one has asked if MAGMA will scrub a tile clean of salt.

Because the main contributor to magma spam is gone.

Although it is a valid point, plus obsidianisation would prolly work too.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: jcnorris00 on December 20, 2011, 05:57:58 pm
Necro's gone again?

Someone already asked about obsidianisation.  (obsidianization?)  It's a distinct but obviously related experiment.  If Sphalerite goes through the trouble of testing one method, he might as well test both.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 20, 2011, 05:59:41 pm
Necro's gone again?

Someone already asked about obsidianisation.  (obsidianization?)  It's a distinct but obviously related experiment.  If Sphalerite goes through the trouble of testing one method, he might as well test both.

Banned actually, plus I think it was me who asked ;P
'Cept not with magma, I assumed that since the tile didn't change, it would still be permanently contaminated.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Nan on December 21, 2011, 01:00:58 am
I seriously doubt magma or obsidian would work. What I did try was utterly removing a tainted reservoir by channeling out everything and building a new constructed reservoir in the empty space. It remained salty. Thus saltiness doesn't taint the floors or the walls but the space itself. This is also why a beach isn't salty - the tiles have never actually held salt water.
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: slothen on March 02, 2012, 04:34:53 pm
I would conjecture that the way stagnation spreads and contaminates is the same.  In 2010 you could check the well bucket and see "stagnant water 10."  I wanted perfectly clean water for my fortress.  I built an elaborate cistern of fully constructed materials and pumped water into it, and it was stagnant.  I realized a place I had messed up (at least under the no-natural-stone theory), so i built a new full-constructed cistern somewhere else.  The new one had non-stagnant water.  I then deconstructed and reconstructed the old one, being absolutely sure to get it right, and the water was still stagnant.

More science, is water stagnancy or salinity effected by filling things by bucket brigade?  I ask because wells seem to remove salinity no matter what, even though well buckets drawn from stagnant water seem to be filled with stagnant water.  if you filled a cistern from water drawn from a salty well, would that cistern be filled with salty water?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 02, 2012, 06:18:55 pm
(Didn't read the whole thread.)
Did you compare DF2012 against DF2010?  Perhaps the old myths are now defunct, but otherwise valid when they were reported?
Title: Re: !!science!! and desalination: common notions a myth?
Post by: Sphalerite on March 02, 2012, 06:29:13 pm
I have not yet created any long-term fortress in DF2012.  I have been too busy with non-DF projects to do anything more than mess around with the new adventure mode stuff a bit.

I also haven't experimented with stagnant water yet.  None of my DF2010 fortresses had any stagnant water.  I have been hearing that it's easy to accidentally create stagnant water in DF2012, so clearly some !!science!! exploring that is required.