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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Silthuri on February 18, 2015, 10:43:14 pm

Title: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Silthuri on February 18, 2015, 10:43:14 pm

Beginner's Mafia LIII
Wolf Pack

The crisp autumn breeze ruffles your fur. The air is cooling quickly, proclaiming winter is fast approaching. A thousand scents crowd your sensitive nose. The earthy smell of the fallen leaves rotting in the morning dew. The pungent scent of the pine trees that surround you. The warm, calming scent of your pack. Your family. They are howling. Usually the sound of their voices warms your heart and compels you to howl with them. But not now… their voices are filled with despair and sorrow…

The hair on your neck stands on end. Something’s very wrong. You quickly find them and the source of their pain.

Your alpha is dead. As you move up to investigate his body, you see his throat is in tatters. It’s clear there are traitors amongst your pack. It is also clear that they must pay. No foreign scents surround his body though. Teeth are bared as it is realized that members of your own pack killed your leader.

They. Must. Die.

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Player List [7/7]:

• Cryxis, Prince of Doom
• origamiscienceguy - Vanilla townie killed N1
• Peradon - Jailkeeper lynched D2
• Melanthius UXLZ
• ggamer
• hector13
• roo - Vanilla townie lynched D1

ICs [2/2]:

• Deathsword Jack A T
• Nerjin - Vanilla Townie killed N2

Scum IC [1/1]:

• The Dark Star

Replacements:

• Dani

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Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia LII. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

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Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Vanilla Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

This is still an experimental setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Spoiler: Possible Role PMs (click to show/hide)

Quote from: 'Vanilla' Town

You are a loyal wolf devastated by the loss of your alpha. You yearn to exact revenge for his murder.

You are town.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia are eliminated.

Quote from: 'Cop' Town

You are an old wolf who has seen many winters. Your old eyes have seen so much, almost nothing can fool them anymore.

You are town. Each night, you can inspect a fellow player in order to see their alignment.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia have been eliminated.

Quote from: 'Jailkeeper' Town

You are the strongest wolf in your pack next to your alpha. No one would dare attack you face-to-face.

You are town. Each night, you can guard another player to prevent them from acting or being acted upon.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia are eliminated.

Quote from: Vanilla Mafioso

The pack is all you have ever known, but you know weakness when you see it. The Alpha was old and weak. The time has come for a new alpha and you were one of those who set the chain of events in motion. Things did not go according to plan, however. The others were more devoted to the alpha than you thought. Now, it's all you can do to get out of here alive.

You are mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. You may plot with your partner [In a secret topic on quicktopic.com that will be visible only to you and your partner].

Wincondition: You win when the town faction has equal or less players than your faction.

Quote from: 'Role Cop' Mafia

The pack is all you have ever known and you have worked tirelessly to move up in the pack hierarchy. It tears at your very soul to see such a weak wolf in charge, thus you are one of the wolves who ambushed the alpha and killed him. However, your meticulous plans have backfired. The others will not rest until they see you dead. Rather than leading, your goal now is to get out of here alive. You now use your honed skills to hunt your own family.

You are mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. You have the ability to inspect others in order to discover their role. You may plot with your partner [In a secret topic on quicktopic.com that will be visible only to you and your partner].

Wincondition: You win when the town faction has equal or less players than your faction.

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

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Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored. Silthuri, Sil, and Silth you scummy scum!, are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this to remove your vote. You may put the name of the player you are unvoting in red after the unvote, e.g., unvote Silthuri, but it is not required.
  • If the day ends with two or more people having the same number of votes, the day will end with no player being lynched.
  • It is also possible to vote for a no lynch to explicitly end the day without a lynch.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Weekends are not counted in terms of day or night length. E.G., if a night starts at 12:00 PM Friday, it will end at 12:00 PM Monday.
  
  • If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.
• Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There are only two extensions per day, with other extensions being granted at the moderator's discretion for special reasons.
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension or shorten
  • Extensions or shortens can be opposed. Opposition to extensions or shortens are done in boldface. Oppose Extend, Opposition to the Extension, Oppose Shorten, are acceptable ways to oppose an extension or shorten. Oppositions count against the total number of votes for an extension or shorten.
  • Extensions count as opposition to hortens. Similarly, shortens count as opposition to extensions.
  • Extensions, Shortens, and Oppositions will be counted and processed by the moderator in the order that they are cast.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
  • Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
• Miscellaneous - Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.  If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.

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Resources and Guides

Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"
Dak: Meh.  Why?
Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"
Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."
Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"
Dak: "He looked scummy.."
Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"
Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."
Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"

Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.
If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:

Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true [/list]

Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide)

Alignment - Who you share a victory condition with. Town-aligned, Scum-aligned, or third party alignments.

Bandwagon - Multiple votes on a single person. Can be justified, or unjustified. Unjustified bandwagons are scummy. Joining bandwagons blindly or without reason is also scummy.

BM - Beginner's Mafia (Or, Bastard Mod, a Mafia game with a purposefully unreliable moderator, or misleading information)

Bus - (noun: the bus ; verb: bussing, throwing him/her under the bus) When a mafia member attacks another one in order to make themselves look like a loyal townie when his or her scumpartner gets lynched.

Cult - A group of players that share a win condition, know each other, and can communicate freely. They are generally a second type of scum, although rarely they can be town-aligned. Instead of a kill, they can recruit players into the cult. There is generally a cult leader, who is in charge of recruiting.

EBWOP - Edit By Way of Post. Since editing isn't allowed in mafia, one may make a second post correcting any errors or missed information in their previous post.

FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.

FTD - Failure to Deliver, also known as Toaster's #1 Scumtell. The act of promising to post more information at a later time, and then failing to do so. A very difficult action to justify as town, because it means you are either lazy or lying, it is therefore seen as a pretty solid scumtell.

IC - Inexperienced Challenged, players who are too experienced to justify playing in a Beginner's Mafia, and act as mentors/guides for the Town or the Scum.

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

LYLO - Lynch or Lose, a situation where Town only outnumbers Scum by a single person (e.g. 3 town vs. 2 scum). During LYLO, Town MUST lynch Scum or instantly lose.

Masons - A group of town-aligned players who know each other to be town-aligned. They can communicate with each other freely.

MYLO - Mislynch and Lose, a situation where Town outnumbers Scum by two people (4 town vs. 2 scum). During MYLO, if Town lynches Town, Scum will win after night-killing town, making it 2 town vs. 2 scum, which is an instant scum win.

NL - No Lynch, to choose to end the day without lynching anyone and see if any information is revealed in the night.

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

PFP - Posting From Phone (or Profession), throwing up a short post to prove you aren't lurking, when you are too busy at the time to make a more complete post.

PL - Policy Lynch, lynching someone for reasons other than scumminess. Variants are Lynch All Lurkers, Lynch All Liars, etc. Also see: Org.

PPE - Pre-Post Edit, typically done when you go to either Preview or Post and notice that someone else has posted before you. PPE is shorthand for acknowledging the "Warning - You may wish to review your post" message.

RIA - Refuge in Audacity, acting really crazy or really scummy to make people think that you couldn't possibly be scum because of how crazy you are. This never works. Neither does sarcasm in general, really. If you want to be sarcastic, make it painfully obvious you are being sarcastic, with <sarcasm>fake sarcasm tags</sarcasm>. Even still, it's not a good idea, because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS

Role - Also called Power Role, any special powers you have. Cops, doctors, roleblockers, and godfathers are examples of classic roles. Some roles are alignment-specific, some aren't, and some can be for any alignment.

Rolefishing - Any question or attempt to learn information about someone's role. Typically something done at the beginning of the game. Typically a scum move, because it is in scum's advantage to find and lynch powerful roles. Can be acceptable later in the game, or in special circumstances where it is beneficial for town to learn someone's role. The reason it is scummy is because the really powerful town roles want to stay hidden so they don't get lynched by scum, and bringing attention to them by rolefishing risks their secrecy.

RVS - Random Voting Stage, the early-early game, shortly after the game begins, where people randomly vote each other and ask each other different questions, trying to find any good reason to suspect someone.

Scum - Mafia, or someone who isn't aligned with the Town. The Informed Minority.

SK - Serial Killer, a third party role with a nightkill, and who is hostile to everyone.

Survivor - a third party role whose win condition requires that they be alive at the end of the game. Normal players can die and still win as long as their team as a whole wins, but a survivor must actually be alive at the end.

Third Party - an alignment that is independent of scum and town. Has a unique victory condition, and is typically a lone wolf type character.

Town - The anti-Scum. The uninformed majority.

Vanilla - Someone who doesn't have a power role. "Vanilla Town", "Vanilla Scum", etc.

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

WoT - Wall of Text; a really really long post. Sometimes unavoidable, but generally you should try to keep them to a minimum. Sometimes scum use them to seem more active then they are.

Massclaim - When everyone starts roleclaiming, or saying they are a power role.

Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)

(Thanks to IronyOwl for making the orig. version!)

Scumtells are things that someone does or says that imply that they're scum. Usually the reasoning is that it's bad or not productive for townies to do it, so it can be hard to distinguish signs of being scum from signs of being a noob. This is one of the reasons scum almost always win beginner's mafia games.

Note that scumtells are very very subjective; there's no simple way to distinguish a scumtell from a noobtell from being justified and/or lazy. Whether a justified, non-scummy version of a scumtell should still be called by its normal name varies from person to person. (Someone might describe their voting of someone who voted them as "not an OMGUS," other would say it's "a justified OMGUS" for instance)

In any case, common scumtells include:

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum.

OMGUSing: Short for Oh My God You Suck, by the way. Voting or otherwise applying pressure to whoever's voting you. It implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

Defending/Chainsawing: Defending just means what it sounds like: saying things to defend another player's actions or words. Chainsawing or chainsaw defending means attacking someone who's attacking another player in an attempt to get them to stop. The idea in both instances is that townies don't know if their fellow players are innocent or not, and hence have no real reason to defend them from legitimate persecution. Scum, on the other hand, know they're on a team and so are prone to not wanting their buddies found out or pressured.

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum. Note: this is not to be confused with the Too Townie fallacy, a terrible arguement that a lack of scumminess makes a player scum. The Trying to Hard scumtell refers to someone actively trying to appear town, not a lack of scumminess.

Passiveness: This is when a person refuses, simply hasn't or seems reluctant to take a stance, such as lynches. Scum will be concerned about their image, and thus don't want to be seen supporting a town lynch or an attack on a town.

Backtracking: When a person changes their stance on a subject after stating it, such as supporting a lynch and after doing so claiming that they didn't do it. This is very suspicious, and is often a sign of scum wanting to retreat their position so as to be able to save their face.

Lying: Well this should be obvious, right? It happens when someone fakeclaims (says they're a cop/doc, but is just town for example), fabricates evidence and stuff like that.

Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning.

Quote from: Argembarger

Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Blackmailing the town, like "You can lynch me, but you'll be sorry when you see I was town all along!"
Voting yourself for any reason.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Oh my god this game seems fun. But wait, what are the rules?
  This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0) is a good Mafia tutorial, brought to you by the wise JoshuaFH. Heed his words. It isn't included here because it's rather too long for that.
• People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?
  The first and most important order of business is not to give up.
  One, two votes isn't much. Even if someone's got a bandwagon on you and people are writing walls of accusations, do not lose hope. You can still turn this around, no matter how bleak it appears. Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.
  The other players have nothing against you: it's just how the game goes. Even if you foul it up and people yell at you for it, once the game is over we're all friends.
  There are still people who give up, saying things like "You'll all be sorry when you find out I'm just town afterwards!" and "I'm not even going to try, there no way to stop this". Don't be that guy. Not only is it rather selfish, it will simply deepen your grave. You have to get out of it with real, meat-laden arguments, and these empty threats and remarks will only make you appear more scummy.
• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  You can often tell with the help of the List of Common Scumtells, provided below, but don't make the mistake of overusing it. Not every accusal against you is an OMGUS, and not all attempts at logic are WIFOM.  If in doubt, always remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. Don't take anything for granted.
• What's all this wine stuff that players keep talking about? Does Mafia cause alcoholism?
  They are likely referring to the concept of WIFOM. It's a name for the kind of circular reasoning that you'd find when scrutinising scum motives, and is described in the CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia below. It goes like this:
  
  A: Why didn't our most active player get killed? It would be the scum's goal to kill the most active players to remove accusal, wouldn't it? The only conclusion is that [active player] is scum!
  
  B: Or is it? What if the scum wants to keep the most active player to draw suspicion on him? The scum could then head the attack on this player, thus pushing themselves into a position of trust amongst the town! I've got my eye on you, A!
  
  A: No, that isn't right! Clearly, they would stay in the background, and the people who go for the bait like me would be attacked by the scum, thus making themselves appear insightful! B, how dare you do this to me!
  
  B: Or perhaps the scum would be someone voting for a person that isn't the subject of a bandwagon, thus appearing both inconspicuous and independent! [lurker], you are scum!
  
  As you can see here, both A and B are making wild speculations on the motives of the scum. Their votes and eyes are all over the place, and nothing is really getting done. It distracts from real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that, not speculating on how people would or would not play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: TheDarkStar on February 18, 2015, 10:48:33 pm

Might was well IN as scum IC again if no one else wants to. Otherwise, I'll just be watching (I need time for CYOM).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: Scripten on February 18, 2015, 10:59:46 pm

I don't think I have time to IC again, but I'm up to scum IC.

P-EDIT: Ah, nevermind. Might change mind later.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 18, 2015, 11:07:58 pm

I'm in for noob


So if say I get put in as mafia, and the messanger thing website doesn't work for me can I use PMs or email to talk to the other mafia member?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 18, 2015, 11:09:39 pm

i'm not sure why quicktopic wouldn't work for you, but that's up to MOWE.

Welcome aboard this crazy train.  I hope you enjoy the ride.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 18, 2015, 11:11:35 pm

Thanks .-.
I'm just seeing what all the hype is about, probs not gonna play another game of this...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 18, 2015, 11:34:49 pm

IN, mafia is just too fun.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: Peradon on February 18, 2015, 11:40:53 pm

In

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [3/9]
Post by: Teneb on February 19, 2015, 08:59:29 am

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 18, 2015, 11:11:35 pm

Thanks .-.
I'm just seeing what all the hype is about, probs not gonna play another game of this...

You just end up liking it. It sure was enough to lure 4maskwolf back.

IC in

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 18, 2015, 11:34:49 pm

IN, mafia is just too fun.

I don't think you need another BM, but you probably know your own experience best.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [3/9]
Post by: hector13 on February 19, 2015, 09:01:55 am

Ah... not sure if I should be in for this one. Played 2.5 games of mafia, one of which I completely failed in, the other of which I did quite well. I also don't want to take a spot if a newer person wants one so... In as replacement?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [0/9]
Post by: Silthuri on February 19, 2015, 09:12:40 am

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 18, 2015, 11:07:58 pm

So if say I get put in as mafia, and the messanger thing website doesn't work for me can I use PMs or email to talk to the other mafia member?

I'd really hate having to use PM's, which would mean in addition to sending them to your partner, you'd also have to send them to me so I can make sure nothing fishy is going on. And I'd have to compile them all into a scum chat of sorts to post for the others.

Here (http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/qa3DJMG8TRmD9) is the link to the last scum chat. See if it works for ya.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [4/9]
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 19, 2015, 10:14:59 am

Screw it, IC in me.

Deathsword is absolutely right, Cryxis.  To a certain type of person, mafia is irresistable.  And I happen to be that type of person.  Who knows, maybe you'll want to stick around?  That said, good on you for giving this a shot!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [3/9]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 19, 2015, 10:21:01 am

Quote from: Deathsword on February 19, 2015, 08:59:29 am

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 18, 2015, 11:34:49 pm

IN, mafia is just too fun.

I don't think you need another BM, but you probably know your own experience best.

My strategy for the other beginners mafia didn't work, so i'll try something else this time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Teneb on February 19, 2015, 10:57:26 am

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 19, 2015, 10:21:01 am

Quote from: Deathsword on February 19, 2015, 08:59:29 am

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 18, 2015, 11:34:49 pm

IN, mafia is just too fun.

I don't think you need another BM, but you probably know your own experience best.

My strategy for the other beginners mafia didn't work, so i'll try something else this time.

You got pretty close to winning in Overlord. If you hadn't slipped, you might've done it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 19, 2015, 11:00:37 am

For hat game, I was doing exactly what he wiki said to do. I'm trying to find a play style hat I like. The previous beginners mafia didn't work.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 19, 2015, 11:02:55 am

im senseing a lack of t's

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 19, 2015, 11:05:34 am

Phone's auto correct. I can't edit posts in a mafia game either.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: UXLZ on February 19, 2015, 04:38:14 pm

I'm pretty sure you can edit posts while the game hasn't actually started yet.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: 4maskwolf on February 19, 2015, 05:14:58 pm

You can.  Also, I hate to say this, but I'm actually going to out.  It's easier on me if I only play one mafia game at a time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 19, 2015, 05:42:52 pm

Bye turtle friend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Nerjin on February 19, 2015, 08:03:45 pm

IC In

I'll give it another go.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Melanthius on February 20, 2015, 02:41:48 pm

In

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 20, 2015, 03:05:11 pm

Melanthius, is this your first game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [5/9]
Post by: Melanthius on February 21, 2015, 02:51:25 am

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 20, 2015, 03:05:11 pm

Melanthius, is this your first game?

Yes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [6/9]
Post by: ggamer on February 23, 2015, 09:27:10 am

I used to play mafia back in high school during Theater, but that was more of an improv game than the... rather daunting game this looks like. Still, though, this looks like fun and BM seems like a good place to start, IN

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: hector13 on February 23, 2015, 12:57:34 pm

Would the other players/ICs/GM mind if I change my mind and go from the replacement list into the game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: Silthuri on February 23, 2015, 10:33:45 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 23, 2015, 12:57:34 pm

Would the other players/ICs/GM mind if I change my mind and go from the replacement list into the game?

It's fine with me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 23, 2015, 10:35:11 pm

I honestly don't care. Playing with players around my experience sounds alot more fun.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: roo on February 23, 2015, 11:39:45 pm

ummm in.

if there's room.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: hector13 on February 23, 2015, 11:42:00 pm

There should be...

Also, welcome to the forums :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 23, 2015, 11:43:12 pm

Welcome to the forum

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 12:37:48 am

Thanks! Happy to be here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 12:38:23 am

Good good... Fresh blood!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: UXLZ on February 24, 2015, 02:34:52 am

I'll sign up for replacement but do note I'm more of an IC than a newbie.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - [7/9] - Two Beginner Spots Left!
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 10:31:18 am

Quote from: UXLZ on February 24, 2015, 02:34:52 am

I'll sign up for replacement but do note I'm more of an IC than a newbie.

So am I, really, I just seem to be going through a mafia kick right now. I need moar!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Full
Post by: Silthuri on February 24, 2015, 10:54:59 am

Alrighty! I'll send out the roles momentarily and get this show on the road!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Full
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:04:25 am

Let's get this party started.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Full
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:46:14 am

How could such a devastating thing happen! We must avenge his death!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Full
Post by: Silthuri on February 24, 2015, 06:11:30 pm

Snarls erupt from all around as the search for the killers begins.

Day One has begun and will end Friday, February 27 at 6pm EST.

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
origamiscienceguy:
Peradon:
Melanthius:
ggamer:
hector13:
roo:
Deathsword:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Everyone

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2015, 06:13:58 pm

{Alright, for those of you who are brand new: welcome to Mafia. I an IC, which means I'm here to try and teach you the basics. Whenever I type with "{ }" around my text, it means that I am speaking as an IC. I will not lie or mislead you while using these. In fact, I will do so even if it hurts me as a player. Keep in mind that I am still a player and may even be scum, so trust only what I type out as an IC, not as a player.}

{There is also a scum IC. The scum IC interacts only with the scum team via the scumchat, to teach them the ways of scum. If you are town, you don't need to worry yourself with the scum IC.}

{Now, before anything else: go to the OP and read up on the terminology and scumhunting methods if you haven't. This is important. Assuming you already have, a few general tips: town know they are town and as such should not concern themselves with proving they are town. Instead focus on finding scum. Lying is one of the hugest scumtells there is, avoid lying when you can, regardless of alignment. Furthermore, quote what you are responding to or talking about. It is ok to trim down quotes to remove stuff that is not relevant to whatever you are saying. It is not ok to modify the contents of the quote itself. If you are on a phone/tablet and can't quote easily, look to the post number at the top of every post, and include that instead. Finally, do not edit your posts. Ever. If you end up forgetting to include something, screw up a quote, spoiler or whatever, just do a double post.}

{With that out of the way, the game starts in the RVS (random vote stage). The point of RVS is to get people talking and the game rolling. Usually you ask questions to some (or all, if you want) players and choose one to do a random vote on). The point of the random vote is that it puts pressure on that player, it is something that cannot be easily ignored. The game will eventually drift out of RVS, usually when people have some leads to follow.}

{But, most importantly, play to win. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, find scum or frame the town, as your alignment goes. And try to have fun.}

Cryxis: What is TheDarkStar advising you to do in RVS? {This is a trick question, which you will see a lot. Town use it to get scum to slip. Scum use it to frame town. It may appear as "are you scum?" or "are you nervous that I am voting you, scumbucket?" or just a plain vote with no comment or question. In all cases but the last, the only correct answer is saying you are not scum. In the last, just show that you are not concerned. Either way, you must answer, which is why I'd like you to answer even with this whole text here.}

OSG: How do you expect a game with four completely new players to go?

roo: What do you expect out of a mafia game? What do you know of the game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 06:24:45 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on February 24, 2015, 06:13:58 pm

OSG: How do you expect a game with four completely new players to go?

A bit chaotic, but hopefully better then the last game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 07:08:48 pm

The RNG choose you, Deathsword. How many days do you think it'll take you and your scumbuddy to win?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2015, 07:30:32 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 07:08:48 pm

The RNG choose you, Deathsword. How many days do you think it'll take you and your scumbuddy to win?

I'm town, but I'm betting on defeating scum by D3.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 07:43:28 pm

I like your attitude! Unvote. Lets go for that perfect game, people!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 07:52:31 pm

I hate RVS.

Hector, now that we know how good of a scum player you are, how will your playstyle change?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

Hopefully it won't. This is something of a meta thing that I'm hoping to engender, that my scum play is indistinguishable from my town play. Or is it my town play being indistinguishable from my scum play..?

I'll at least be able to apply the things I learned as scum to my scumhunting though, so hopefully I'll be better at that.

Will your playstyle change, knowing some of the more experienced players a bit better in this game, and hopefully having gained a bit more experience from the last game?

I also share your disdain for RVS, it's an awful, awful thing trying to figure out what questions to ask when you don't really have any basis for them...

Peradon, what do you think of the newer players?

Cryxis, will you be claiming clone in this too? How do you expect being Prince of Doom will influence this game? Why did you kill the alpha?

roo who do you think you'll night-kill first?

ggamer Assume you're cop. Who do you investigate first, and why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

Ok then...

Roo: What initially drew you to mafia?
Cryxis: Which would you prefer, mafia or town? Why?
Origami: If you were scum, would you kill the most experianced player, or a lurker? Why?
Deathsword: Which player, other than you, would you consider the most threatening if he were scum?
ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Quote from: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

Peradon, what do you think of the newer players?

Well, I dont know any except Cryxis, so I cant say much. But I think Cryxis will be good at this...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 08:32:14 pm

ummmm tldr deathsword Is that fine mod? Dw about answering it I will see in the updated vc whenever that happens.


 Unvote

Hector13

ummm hi buddy.

-roo-

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 08:33:19 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

Origami: If you were scum, would you kill the most experianced player, or a lurker? Why?

The IC because they are the biggest threat for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Definitely, that would probably give me a majour advantage; wipe out the more experienced players, and I get the chance to influence the rest however I want. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near a skilled player, so the advantage would be slim to none.

Quote from: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

ggamer Assume you're cop. Who do you investigate first, and why?

I'd investigate the most aggressive player. I get the logic behind seeing lurkers as scum, but I've gotten the feeling from reading some of these that any scum worth his scummy salt would play hardball to avoid suspicion.


Hector, if watching D1 gave you no real clue on who to NK, who would you kill and why?

Cryxis, if you were rolecop mafia which would you rather inspect: an aggressive player accusing and asking lots of questions, or a more reserved player who is more reserved and methodical with his questions?

Nerjin, if you were mafia and several townies were coming close to lynching you, what would you do to divert attention from yourself?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 09:41:22 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Hector, if watching D1 gave you no real clue on who to NK, who would you kill and why?

Well that would be a hypothetical, given I don't have a night kill...

However, if I were mafia and had an NK, I'd probably kill the player who was most aggressively scumhunting me to try to keep the pressure off.

All your questions appear to be asking for ways to play as scum though. Are you doing this to avoid falling into a behaviour that would get you scumread?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2015, 09:42:27 pm

IC only post, player post tomorrow.

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 08:32:14 pm

ummmm tldr deathsword Is that fine mod? Dw about answering it I will see in the updated vc whenever that happens.


 Unvote

Hector13

ummm hi buddy.

-roo-

{roo, mafia depends a lot on people doing proper posts, where they ask questions and apply pressure correctly. You did none of those. You just voted and unvoted me in the same post because... I don't even know, and then switched to Hector with a "hi". I think that you are trying to do what me and OSG did with the reaction votes, but that really isn't enough. Please look at the other posts and use that as a base, if nothing else.}

{This is mostly from what I've seen in other games, but... OSG, I think, said he learned that No Lynches are bad no matter what. I will attempt to clarify. For those who are not aware, you can actively vote for a no-lynch. This is better than not voting because if 3 players vote to no-lynch and 2 to lynch me, then there will be no lynch at all. How good it is depends on setup. In a setup with no or few power roles, it is just bad outside MYLO (mislynch and lose) and even then it is of dubious help, because it gives scum time to act. In a setup filled with power roles, this can be different, allowing everyone to act. Hope that helps clear it up.}

Quote from: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Definitely, that would probably give me a majour advantage; wipe out the more experienced players, and I get the chance to influence the rest however I want. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near a skilled player, so the advantage would be slim to none.

{I actually advise this whenever I am scum IC. In a game filled with new people, the ones who can best see through your disguise are the ICs. It also gives the newbies a chance to live a bit longer.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:26:51 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on February 24, 2015, 09:42:27 pm

IC only post, player post tomorrow.

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 08:32:14 pm

ummmm tldr deathsword Is that fine mod? Dw about answering it I will see in the updated vc whenever that happens.


 Unvote

Hector13

ummm hi buddy.

-roo-

{roo, mafia depends a lot on people doing proper posts, where they ask questions and apply pressure correctly. You did none of those. You just voted and unvoted me in the same post because... I don't even know, and then switched to Hector with a "hi". I think that you are trying to do what me and OSG did with the reaction votes, but that really isn't enough. Please look at the other posts and use that as a base, if nothing else.}

{This is mostly from what I've seen in other games, but... OSG, I think, said he learned that No Lynches are bad no matter what. I will attempt to clarify. For those who are not aware, you can actively vote for a no-lynch. This is better than not voting because if 3 players vote to no-lynch and 2 to lynch me, then there will be no lynch at all. How good it is depends on setup. In a setup with no or few power roles, it is just bad outside MYLO (mislynch and lose) and even then it is of dubious help, because it gives scum time to act. In a setup filled with power roles, this can be different, allowing everyone to act. Hope that helps clear it up.}

Quote from: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Definitely, that would probably give me a majour advantage; wipe out the more experienced players, and I get the chance to influence the rest however I want. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near a skilled player, so the advantage would be slim to none.

{I actually advise this whenever I am scum IC. In a game filled with new people, the ones who can best see through your disguise are the ICs. It also gives the newbies a chance to live a bit longer.}

ummmm so instead of asking why you decided to assume that I'm an idiot? Thanks for the VOTE of confidence hue hue hue. And I haven't seen any of what you've said been done so far. The questions asked elicit non-responses in terms of progress of the game. And no thanks I have seen the other posts. I do not mind waiting a bit for the game to actually start.

That said you ought to vote hector. He is scum.

off topic: Lynching is good especially in a game this size 7-2. No lynching d1 would mean we lose a mislynch. We would lose upon the second mislynch so technically we would only have a single ml. Most importantly tho lynching kills scum. A wagon to analyze is good d2 if there is no wagon it is like we are starting at the beginning all over. Not mention that whatever actions we have we would do them blindly. And you are handing over a townie to the mafia for free. Town controls lynches as their are more townie so generally speaking lynches are a good thing. NLing is the correct option for certain situations, but not this one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 10:29:52 pm

punctuation please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:34:34 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 10:29:52 pm

punctuation please.

umm you are gonna hate me

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 10:37:45 pm

I cannot follow anything you are trying to say.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:41:31 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 10:37:45 pm

I cannot follow anything you are trying to say.

hmmmm that is a problem. for you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:43:16 pm

ummm I suggest you ignore me not an ideal solution but yeah. I am sorry. as english is not my first language. so you will have to bear with me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 11:09:47 pm

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:26:51 pm

That said you ought to vote hector. He is scum.

Would you care to expand on this? Any reason why you suspect hector?

The random questioning will disapate eventually. Usually, it starts when someone misunderstands someone else and they get into an argument.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:15:16 pm

((Sorry for not posting I was on an aniversary date IRL.))

Ummm what questions were asked towards me?
I saw a few
The first one in the huge text with the IC I didn't understand and I didn't read through the others yet .-. Sorry again for being missing

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:16:12 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 11:09:47 pm

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:26:51 pm

That said you ought to vote hector. He is scum.

Would you care to expand on this? Any reason why you suspect hector?

The random questioning will disapate eventually. Usually, it starts when someone misunderstands someone else and they get into an argument.

because reasons. Vote them trust.

preview.

We found out hector is scum and are voting them join us.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 11:19:14 pm

Mafia doesnt work like that. You need to tell us your reasons, otherwise we wont vote with you. For all we know, you're mafia.

Also, who is the 'we' you are talking about?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:25:41 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 11:19:14 pm

Mafia doesnt work like that. You need to tell us your reasons, otherwise we wont vote with you. For all we know, you're mafia.

Also, who is the 'we' you are talking about?

ummm huh? I never said it did?
You don't have to vote with me although I'd really like it if you did. we usually means the collective me :/ was that confusing? hmmmm I suspect it was.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:28:12 pm

Wait, you WANT us to vote for you?? Do you know how to play mafia?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:30:46 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:28:12 pm

Wait, you WANT us to vote for you?? Do you know how to play mafia?

I don't think you can vote for me. Is that possible? That would be an interesting mechanic.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:32:18 pm

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:30:46 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:28:12 pm

Wait, you WANT us to vote for you?? Do you know how to play mafia?

I don't think you can vote for me. Is that possible? That would be an interesting mechanic.

I mean certainly you can cast your vote for me but you can't proxy vote for me. I think that clears it up.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:34:47 pm

You can vote for anybody in this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:37:19 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:34:47 pm

You can vote for anybody in this game.

Ummm I figured. I thought you meant something else. See previous post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:40:22 pm

I would, but I seriously cannot understand what you are trying to say by "proxy vote"

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:41:47 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:40:22 pm

I would, but I seriously cannot understand what you are trying to say by "proxy vote"

umm like use your vote as mine? That is what I thought you meant.

Why are you not voting hector?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:44:35 pm

Ok read the questions


I am town
This isn't the same game and I've got a different strategy for it, this is acctualy the oppisite of that game


If I were roll cop I would be interested in people who are constantly badgering others or avoiding questions themselves, I would be aware of lurker a but take more interest in those badgering and attacking others

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:46:21 pm

I completely misunderstood you. I was asking why you asked me to vote for you.

I am not voting hector BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANY REASON TO. If you want people to vote for someone, you have to state your evidence and make convincing arguments against them. At this time, the only people with any information are the scum making your insistence that Hector should be lynched very scummy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:46:21 pm

I completely misunderstood you. I was asking why you asked me to vote for you.

I am not voting hector BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANY REASON TO. If you want people to vote for someone, you have to state your evidence and make convincing arguments against them. At this time, the only people with any information are the scum making your insistence that Hector should be lynched very scummy.

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

I originally voted Hector because he was being everyones pal which I alluded to by saying 'buddy'. And I voted the IC, I forgot his name, to see if anyone would say anything about it. It would give me a slight scum lean. The fact that the ic himself responded to it is null at best since he was the one who was being voted.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:57:55 pm

Do we do the random voting in thread or in a PM to the GM?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 12:00:40 am

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:46:21 pm

I completely misunderstood you. I was asking why you asked me to vote for you.

I am not voting hector BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANY REASON TO. If you want people to vote for someone, you have to state your evidence and make convincing arguments against them. At this time, the only people with any information are the scum making your insistence that Hector should be lynched very scummy.

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

I originally voted Hector because he was being everyones pal which I alluded to by saying 'buddy'. And I voted the IC, I forgot his name, to see if anyone would say anything about it. It would give me a slight scum lean. The fact that the ic himself responded to it is null at best since he was the one who was being voted.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Which of hector13's post sounded like buddying to you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 12:05:36 am

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 12:00:40 am

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 11:46:21 pm

I completely misunderstood you. I was asking why you asked me to vote for you.

I am not voting hector BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANY REASON TO. If you want people to vote for someone, you have to state your evidence and make convincing arguments against them. At this time, the only people with any information are the scum making your insistence that Hector should be lynched very scummy.

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

I originally voted Hector because he was being everyones pal which I alluded to by saying 'buddy'. And I voted the IC, I forgot his name, to see if anyone would say anything about it. It would give me a slight scum lean. The fact that the ic himself responded to it is null at best since he was the one who was being voted.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Which of hector13's post sounded like buddying to you.

no no not buddying. more along the lines of trying to be adorably non threatening. Right out of the gate read those few posts. Always be thinking with the mentality how does this post (in general) further a townies or scums agenda.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 12:09:58 am

Why would being non-threatening be a scum-tell?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 12:11:46 am

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 12:09:58 am

Why would being non-threatening be a scum-tell?

Are you confused or defending Hector?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 12:23:36 am

I could ask the same for you. You are making absolutely no sense. Just answer the question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 12:28:20 am

Also, what post was it that jumped out at you as especially scummy? I really dont see it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 01:07:29 am

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 12:23:36 am

I could ask the same for you. You are making absolutely no sense. Just answer the question.

You could ask, it would be self defeating since I already know the question is a compound one.
Pray tell what is not making sense. I would like to clear that up, and I did answer albeit with a question.

Now why did you not answer me? You had no problem answering others of course their questions are certainly let us say different.
FTR I still don't know if you are confused or defending Hector. Your most recent post certainly does not help in ascertaining that information

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 01:20:02 am

I am neither confused nor defending hector. I am investigating you, and your thought processes.

Right now, I think its a safe bet to Vote Roo. You are refusing to make any sense, and refusing to answer my questions.

Now answer my questions.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2015, 07:27:28 am

More in some hours.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:44:35 pm

Ok read the questions


I am town
This isn't the same game and I've got a different strategy for it, this is acctualy the oppisite of that game


If I were roll cop I would be interested in people who are constantly badgering others or avoiding questions themselves, I would be aware of lurker a but take more interest in those badgering and attacking others

{Hey Cryxis, quote. The thread is still small, so it isn't that much of a problem, but as it grows so will the difficulty of finding (and guessing) what you are answering. If you can't quote, point out the post numbers of what you are referencing. Also, this game has an alignment cop, not a role cop. For instance, if a role cop hits a vanilla townie, they'd learn that the target had no powers. If it was an alignment cop instead, they'd know only the target was town, but not the powers.}

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 24, 2015, 11:57:55 pm

Do we do the random voting in thread or in a PM to the GM?

{Thread}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 10:39:10 am

Well... Roo evidently doesn't like me, and seems to be finding it difficult to tell people why :-\ though I do like he described me as "adorable". Perhaps I should Unvote Perry and Vote roo in order to encourage an answer.

How do you expect me to defend myself if you don't tell me what I need to defend myself against?

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:16:12 pm

We found out hector is scum and are voting them join us.

This part, specifically, is bothersome.

Given the point of the game (D1, just coming out of RVS) I don't see how you can have enough information from the game to categorically say anyone is town or scum. What gives, man?

Also, Cryxis your misinterpretation of what cop I meant is an interesting one to make. I'll be keeping my eye on you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 25, 2015, 10:40:33 am

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 10:39:10 am

Also, Cryxis your misinterpretation of what cop I meant is an interesting one to make. I'll be keeping my eye on you.

??
The only cop role I responded to was the question ggamer asked me .-.
not sure what you mean

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 10:42:14 am

Ohhh, never mind then. I mixed up who I asked my question to, sorry! :))

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 10:43:57 am

EBWOP (Edit By Way Of Post, since no editing in mafia) this is why it's important to quote, so people don't get mixed up :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:13:38 am

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 01:20:02 am

I am neither confused nor defending hector. I am investigating you, and your thought processes.

Right now, I think its a safe bet to Vote Roo. You are refusing to make any sense, and refusing to answer my questions.

Now answer my questions.

That is the second you have said I am not making any sense and also the second time you you did not say how I am not making any sense.
Pray tell.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 10:39:10 am

Well... Roo evidently doesn't like me, and seems to be finding it difficult to tell people why :-\ though I do like he described me as "adorable". Perhaps I should Unvote Perry and Vote roo in order to encourage an answer.

How do you expect me to defend myself if you don't tell me what I need to defend myself against?

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:16:12 pm

We found out hector is scum and are voting them join us.

This part, specifically, is bothersome.

Given the point of the game (D1, just coming out of RVS) I don't see how you can have enough information from the game to categorically say anyone is town or scum. What gives, man?

Also, Cryxis your misinterpretation of what cop I meant is an interesting one to make. I'll be keeping my eye on you.

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; although I suspect this sort of response comes with the territory. I would say something along the lines of: If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? You said it yourself Hector it at that point of the game no one can have enough information. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

non-threatening is not a scum tell on its own. Attempting to be non-threatening should raise alarms for everyone. Who is trying to subvert mislead and destroy us? Mafia. How do they achieve this? Are they gonna manipulate us with their scintillating wit? I think not. How mafia what post in game is just as important as how they want those posts to come across. It is logical for mafia to act in a manner not to arouse suspiciousn.

And everyone I was not sure sure. I was just going with my gut and trying to get reactions. tho those reactions were Lolwut ones.

I am concerned with peradon? I think that is their name. He says he is not confused and yet asked me about why I thought non-threatening would be a scum tell. He also says he is not defending Hector. Well I believe him that he is not confused so his question would serve the purpose of attempting to only discredit the information I would provide. Not certain about the defending Hector part. He voted me because he is "investigating" my thought process. If you notice I have not answered any questions (on purpose) put forth that would be a great reason to vote me, I suspect, in this game. And was obtuse by simply charging forward and demanding that Hector be voted. I mean I would pointed it out that they were trying for an easily lynch and just blatantly vote them back.
 What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?


I DECLARE US OUT OF RVS. You guys can go ahead and stop with the questions as their is already things to analyze.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Nerjin on February 25, 2015, 12:25:38 pm

I am an Ic. This is what I generally do with my IC text but whatever. I don't have a lot of time today so let's do this quickly hm? One thing I always offer as advice to newb-scum is to NOT night kill an IC Night 1. It might make the game easier but it sabatoges you in the future. In order to learn how to avoid experienced players who suspect you is to have an IC target you. The point of this is to learn. Just keep that in mind.

NOTE: be sure to read all these spoilers. They are grouped by person but contain my reads and advice and such. Specifically I suggest you look at Roo's.

Spoiler: GGgamer (click to show/hide)

Quote from: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Definitely, that would probably give me a majour advantage; wipe out the more experienced players, and I get the chance to influence the rest however I want. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near a skilled player, so the advantage would be slim to none.

Quote from: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

ggamer Assume you're cop. Who do you investigate first, and why?

I'd investigate the most aggressive player. I get the logic behind seeing lurkers as scum, but I've gotten the feeling from reading some of these that any scum worth his scummy salt would play hardball to avoid suspicion.

Nerjin, if you were mafia and several townies were coming close to lynching you, what would you do to divert attention from yourself?

In order:

1. I already mentioned the IC thing.

2. Lurkers are often just lurking but it's sometimes more complex than that.

3. If I were mafia and that happened? It really depends on the situation. I'd honestly, right this second, target my scum-buddy. Not to out him but if it were obvious I'm going to die I'd do so to try to throw people off their trail.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote

Roo: What initially drew you to mafia?

This isn't a very good question as it doesn't tell  you anything about what they will do in the game. Just a heads up there.

Spoiler: Roo (click to show/hide)

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 08:32:14 pm

ummmm tldr deathsword Is that fine mod? Dw about answering it I will see in the updated vc whenever that happens.

Pardon me friend but it might be better if you quoted what you're responding to Darksword about. That is how you vote by the way. In the future I suggest being a bit more... Concise. You didn't ask anything but only really made a test post. Which is fine. We've all done it. Just don't makea  habit of it.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; [...] If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? [...]. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

This is a poor thing to say. People defend themselves against poor logic because sometimes a mob mentality comes up. In defending themselves they are analysing a poor case and will use the information gathered from the resulting back and forth to determine whether or not their accuser is mafia or just has a poor case for some reason.
 

Quote

non-threatening is not a scum tell on its own. Attempting to be non-threatening should raise alarms for everyone. Who is trying to subvert mislead and destroy us? Mafia. How do they achieve this? Are they gonna manipulate us with their scintillating wit? I think not. How mafia [...] post in game is just as important as how they want those posts to come across. It is logical for mafia to act in a manner not to arouse suspiciousn.

At the point you accuse him of buddying he has posted three or so times. Each one was asking questions of each person in turn. Legitimate thoughtful questions for the most part. I got no vibe that he was trying to be non-threatening. You, on the other hand, are being overly aggressive for some unknown reason. Your logic is faulty mate. I suggest calming down a bit and trying to build a proper case based on what Hector has actually done.

Quote

I am concerned with peradon? [...] He says he is not confused and yet asked me about why I thought non-threatening would be a scum tell. He also says he is not defending Hector. Well I believe him that he is not confused so his question would serve the purpose of attempting to only discredit the information I would provide. Not certain about the defending Hector part. He voted me because he is "investigating" my thought process.

As he should. He sees flaws in your logic. Thus he is acting town if he investigates that.

Quote

If you notice I have not answered any questions (on purpose) put forth that would be a great reason to vote me, I suspect, in this game. And was obtuse by simply charging forward and demanding that Hector be voted. I mean I would pointed it out that they were trying for an easily lynch and just blatantly vote them back.

You are still being obtuse. I have no idea what your point is. But here's a protip: Never admit that you are avoiding answering questions. As town it paints you in a negative light. As Scum it draws attention.

Quote

What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?

It means he is attempting to understand your logic. He's not hiding what he is thinking. In fact, you are. You have admitted to it. [see above quote].

Quote

I DECLARE US OUT OF RVS. You guys can go ahead and stop with the questions as their is already things to analyze.

You don't get to make that call. I'm assuming you're joking around and trying to be funny. I suggest you take it a bit more seriously. Fun is fine. Clownshoes is not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 01:16:33 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; although I suspect this sort of response comes with the territory. I would say something along the lines of: If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? You said it yourself Hector it at that point of the game no one can have enough information. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

I feel the need to defend myself because you're encouraging other people to vote for me with exactly zero evidence backing up your claim.  I don't care that you're scumhunting me, I care why you're scumhunting me. You've now just said that you only have a gut feeling that I'm scum. Why aren't you pursuing the gut feeling by asking me questions?

The way you're going about things is really scummy, and you're not really generating content (either yourself, because you're not asking questions, or from other people, because you keep avoiding questions...) so I'm finding it harder and harder to believe you're town.

If you are, ask questions, answer questions. Find out why people have the reads they do, challenge or support them as your read on them evolves, don't just sit there, say someone is scum and demand other people vote with you. You know your role, nobody else does; you need to convince them you can be trusted, primarily by scumhunting. Preferably in a better way than you're doing now.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?

I like this. You tell Peradon not to question your thinking, yet immediately ask him to explain his own... double standards much?

Understanding where a person is coming from is part of the game. If you don't understand, ask them to explain. If you still don't understand, ask them to explain better. They might make a slip (town or scum) so you can focus your attention further or elsewhere, as the need arises.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

I DECLARE US OUT OF RVS. You guys can go ahead and stop with the questions as their is already things to analyze.

Thanks.

PPE (pre-post edit) as an addendum to Nerjin's response to your declaration: RVS is fluid. You might feel you're out of it, but that doesn't mean everyone else is, especially since not everyone has been asked or answered a question. Heck I don't even think everyone has posted yet.

Speaking of which, Melanthius I think is the only one who hasn't posted yet. What are your thoughts on happenings so far?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 01:45:55 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; although I suspect this sort of response comes with the territory. I would say something along the lines of: If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? You said it yourself Hector it at that point of the game no one can have enough information. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

He is scumhunting you. You are trying to pin him up and lynch him, and you have given no reason whatsoever for that. Basically, you're saying that you think he's scum from just one post. This is really suspicous, thus why everyone is trying to figure you out.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

non-threatening is not a scum tell on its own. Attempting to be non-threatening should raise alarms for everyone. Who is trying to subvert mislead and destroy us? Mafia. How do they achieve this? Are they gonna manipulate us with their scintillating wit? I think not. How mafia what post in game is just as important as how they want those posts to come across. It is logical for mafia to act in a manner not to arouse suspiciousn.

Thank you. I'm glad you finally answered my question.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

If you notice I have not answered any questions (on purpose) put forth that would be a great reason to vote me, I suspect, in this game. And was obtuse by simply charging forward and demanding that Hector be voted. I mean I would pointed it out that they were trying for an easily lynch and just blatantly vote them back.
 What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?

First of all, if you are town, you NEED to answer questions. Its the way we strike you offof our scum-list. Second, when I say I'm investigating your thought process, I'm saying that I'm trying to figure out what makes you tick, why you refuse to answer questions, and why you voted hector. Its the way the game works. If town doesnt do that, then we lose. Third, I'm not sure if you are just being a noob, or you're a scum. Thats why I wont say you're scum, because I am not sure. Also, I am not hiding what I think. If anybody is hiding what they think, its you! You blatantly refuse to tell us anything.

Now. Please answer my question: What post was it that made you think hector is scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 01:49:14 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on February 25, 2015, 12:25:38 pm

I am an Ic. This is what I generally do with my IC text but whatever. I don't have a lot of time today so let's do this quickly hm? One thing I always offer as advice to newb-scum is to NOT night kill an IC Night 1. It might make the game easier but it sabatoges you in the future. In order to learn how to avoid experienced players who suspect you is to have an IC target you. The point of this is to learn. Just keep that in mind.

NOTE: be sure to read all these spoilers. They are grouped by person but contain my reads and advice and such. Specifically I suggest you look at Roo's.

Spoiler: GGgamer (click to show/hide)

Quote from: ggamer on February 24, 2015, 09:26:40 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

ggamer: If you were mafia, would you kill the IC Night 1?

Definitely, that would probably give me a majour advantage; wipe out the more experienced players, and I get the chance to influence the rest however I want. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near a skilled player, so the advantage would be slim to none.

Quote from: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

ggamer Assume you're cop. Who do you investigate first, and why?

I'd investigate the most aggressive player. I get the logic behind seeing lurkers as scum, but I've gotten the feeling from reading some of these that any scum worth his scummy salt would play hardball to avoid suspicion.

Nerjin, if you were mafia and several townies were coming close to lynching you, what would you do to divert attention from yourself?

In order:

1. I already mentioned the IC thing.

2. Lurkers are often just lurking but it's sometimes more complex than that.

3. If I were mafia and that happened? It really depends on the situation. I'd honestly, right this second, target my scum-buddy. Not to out him but if it were obvious I'm going to die I'd do so to try to throw people off their trail.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote

Roo: What initially drew you to mafia?

This isn't a very good question as it doesn't tell  you anything about what they will do in the game. Just a heads up there.

Spoiler: Roo (click to show/hide)

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 08:32:14 pm

ummmm tldr deathsword Is that fine mod? Dw about answering it I will see in the updated vc whenever that happens.

Pardon me friend but it might be better if you quoted what you're responding to Darksword about. That is how you vote by the way. In the future I suggest being a bit more... Concise. You didn't ask anything but only really made a test post. Which is fine. We've all done it. Just don't makea  habit of it.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; [...] If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? [...]. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

This is a poor thing to say. People defend themselves against poor logic because sometimes a mob mentality comes up. In defending themselves they are analysing a poor case and will use the information gathered from the resulting back and forth to determine whether or not their accuser is mafia or just has a poor case for some reason.
 

Quote

non-threatening is not a scum tell on its own. Attempting to be non-threatening should raise alarms for everyone. Who is trying to subvert mislead and destroy us? Mafia. How do they achieve this? Are they gonna manipulate us with their scintillating wit? I think not. How mafia [...] post in game is just as important as how they want those posts to come across. It is logical for mafia to act in a manner not to arouse suspiciousn.

At the point you accuse him of buddying he has posted three or so times. Each one was asking questions of each person in turn. Legitimate thoughtful questions for the most part. I got no vibe that he was trying to be non-threatening. You, on the other hand, are being overly aggressive for some unknown reason. Your logic is faulty mate. I suggest calming down a bit and trying to build a proper case based on what Hector has actually done.

Quote

I am concerned with peradon? [...] He says he is not confused and yet asked me about why I thought non-threatening would be a scum tell. He also says he is not defending Hector. Well I believe him that he is not confused so his question would serve the purpose of attempting to only discredit the information I would provide. Not certain about the defending Hector part. He voted me because he is "investigating" my thought process.

As he should. He sees flaws in your logic. Thus he is acting town if he investigates that.

Quote

If you notice I have not answered any questions (on purpose) put forth that would be a great reason to vote me, I suspect, in this game. And was obtuse by simply charging forward and demanding that Hector be voted. I mean I would pointed it out that they were trying for an easily lynch and just blatantly vote them back.

You are still being obtuse. I have no idea what your point is. But here's a protip: Never admit that you are avoiding answering questions. As town it paints you in a negative light. As Scum it draws attention.

Quote

What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?

It means he is attempting to understand your logic. He's not hiding what he is thinking. In fact, you are. You have admitted to it. [see above quote].

Quote

I DECLARE US OUT OF RVS. You guys can go ahead and stop with the questions as their is already things to analyze.

You don't get to make that call. I'm assuming you're joking around and trying to be funny. I suggest you take it a bit more seriously. Fun is fine. Clownshoes is not.

I will respond to things I deem relevant. Most of this is just someone not liking how I post which is fine. They can learn to live with it.

1st of all there is no case against him. I started calling him scum. Are you sure you are not being selective of what you read?
When I finally did explain why I was calling him scum I specifically said it was not because of buddying as far as lies go nice try. And for the record nerjin no one has done anything substantial except ask "legitimate" "thoughtful" questions. And people have answered them. Is what I have done really that annoying to you? Did I blaspheme the your precious MO? I get it you do things a certain way. And look down on those who do it differently. I have yet to see those legitimate thoughtful questions move the game forward. RQS is great for a having a good time, but it stagnates the game. We already have good thoughtful discussion now. Is this not better since we have already moved out of rqs? And moving the game forward?

You can certainly think peradon town for "investigating" was it? Sorry if I sound pretentious I can't help myself. I am sure I will stop smiling at that. But a town read because he is doing something any townie might have done? nah I don't think him town for it. I might be too zoned in on Hector with my gut to see things clearly but as far as I am concerned it's the thing leading us out of this rqs. So I will stick with it till there are scummier fish to fry.


I don't mind pointing things out that I am intentionally doing. I pointed it out since no scum were biting said why. People can make of it what they will.

You are correct tho that they can defend themselves. But No one said I can not analyse that defense. Why are trying to limit how people think?
I specifically said it was a gut read. Are you intentionally not reading what I say?

I did make that call deal with it we are out of rvs.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 01:55:06 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 01:49:14 pm

1st of all there is no case against him. I started calling him scum. Are you sure you are not being selective of what you read?
When I finally did explain why I was calling him scum I specifically said it was not because of buddying as far as lies go nice try. And for the record nerjin no one has done anything substantial except ask "legitimate" "thoughtful" questions. And people have answered them. Is what I have done really that annoying to you? Did I blaspheme the your precious MO? I get it you do things a certain way. And look down on those who do it differently. I have yet to see those legitimate thoughtful questions move the game forward. RQS is great for a having a good time, but it stagnates the game. We already have good thoughtful discussion now. Is this not better since we have already moved out of rqs? And moving the game forward?
I did make that call deal with it we are out of rvs.

We are not out of RQS. Read one of the other BM's if you want to see how it progesses the game.

Also, there is one thing that has been bugging me about you. You think you know better than everyone else. Dont forget, YOU are the noob, YOU are not the experianced player here. Listen to the IC's, they know what they are talking about.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 01:16:33 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

Hmmmm I was not expecting this response; from a townie mindset; although I suspect this sort of response comes with the territory. I would say something along the lines of: If I have no case why do you feel the need to want to defend yourself? You said it yourself Hector it at that point of the game no one can have enough information. But for clarification my read has nothing to do with information at all it's mostly a gut read from your first post.

I feel the need to defend myself because you're encouraging other people to vote for me with exactly zero evidence backing up your claim.  I don't care that you're scumhunting me, I care why you're scumhunting me. You've now just said that you only have a gut feeling that I'm scum. Why aren't you pursuing the gut feeling by asking me questions?

The way you're going about things is really scummy, and you're not really generating content (either yourself, because you're not asking questions, or from other people, because you keep avoiding questions...) so I'm finding it harder and harder to believe you're town.

If you are, ask questions, answer questions. Find out why people have the reads they do, challenge or support them as your read on them evolves, don't just sit there, say someone is scum and demand other people vote with you. You know your role, nobody else does; you need to convince them you can be trusted, primarily by scumhunting. Preferably in a better way than you're doing now.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

What does that even mean investigate my thought process I assume that is something that happens a lot here. I encourage you to not ever say that again peradon. If you think I am acting scummy why not say so? why do you want to be hide what you are thinking?

I like this. You tell Peradon not to question your thinking, yet immediately ask him to explain his own... double standards much?

Understanding where a person is coming from is part of the game. If you don't understand, ask them to explain. If you still don't understand, ask them to explain better. They might make a slip (town or scum) so you can focus your attention further or elsewhere, as the need arises.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

I DECLARE US OUT OF RVS. You guys can go ahead and stop with the questions as their is already things to analyze.

Thanks.

PPE (pre-post edit) as an addendum to Nerjin's response to your declaration: RVS is fluid. You might feel you're out of it, but that doesn't mean everyone else is, especially since not everyone has been asked or answered a question. Heck I don't even think everyone has posted yet.

Speaking of which, Melanthius I think is the only one who hasn't posted yet. What are your thoughts on happenings so far?

this is incredibly difficult on a phone.

Does that mean you were scared other people would actually vote for you? Based on zero evidence?
someone should be insulted.

That sort of thing the why I am scumhunting sounds rational and profound but is not. You simply pointed out what I had been saying. I am not asking you questions because, as of yet, you haven't posted anything about anyone besides myself and yourself how can I move my read if you have not done anything?

pretty sure I am generating content albeit not myself but other people are now focusing on us. If they choose to say well he is just an idiot I am okay with that if others look more closely and see what I did was scummy but would I as scum do that? or would anybody as scum do that? In that regard I am clearly town.

As for the double standard thing yes. As you said I know my role I don't know his.

and I'd rather not discuss theory about being out of rvs as yes it is game related but in reality is just fluff posting *looks at first pages of the game again* yup just fluff posting. It only becomes relevant with flips.



thanks much for the advice. I am not gonna do it but thanks anyways. also brownie points for the melanthius s/o. My vote stays for the moment tho.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:47:43 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 01:55:06 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 01:49:14 pm

1st of all there is no case against him. I started calling him scum. Are you sure you are not being selective of what you read?
When I finally did explain why I was calling him scum I specifically said it was not because of buddying as far as lies go nice try. And for the record nerjin no one has done anything substantial except ask "legitimate" "thoughtful" questions. And people have answered them. Is what I have done really that annoying to you? Did I blaspheme the your precious MO? I get it you do things a certain way. And look down on those who do it differently. I have yet to see those legitimate thoughtful questions move the game forward. RQS is great for a having a good time, but it stagnates the game. We already have good thoughtful discussion now. Is this not better since we have already moved out of rqs? And moving the game forward?
I did make that call deal with it we are out of rvs.

We are not out of RQS. Read one of the other BM's if you want to see how it progesses the game.

Also, there is one thing that has been bugging me about you. You think you know better than everyone else. Dont forget, YOU are the noob, YOU are not the experianced player here. Listen to the IC's, they know what they are talking about.

Fairly certain we are out of it. Otherwise you would be still asking pointless questions.

I never said I know better than everyone. I might act like it. That should not stop you from simply calling me misguided or wrong or dumb or inexperienced. Do not blame me for your feelings of inferiority please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:48:31 pm

Damn, I completely forgot about this game, not due to lack of interest, simply because we've had a rough week full of exams, and hard ones at that. I've read up on the thread, and

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

this post sparked my attention. Are you implying that you are simply voting to lynch hector13 because you want to appear town? How does that work?

Excuse me if I'm not making any sense to you, just finished the exam week and only remembered the Mafia game now, knocked me off my tracks honestly.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 02:53:58 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and unvote Hector and vote Roo

No offense roo, but you look incredibly suspicious right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:56:20 pm

Quote from: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:48:31 pm

Damn, I completely forgot about this game, not due to lack of interest, simply because we've had a rough week full of exams, and hard ones at that. I've read up on the thread, and

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

this post sparked my attention. Are you implying that you are simply voting to lynch hector13 because you want to appear town? How does that work?

Excuse me if I'm not making any sense to you, just finished the exam week and only remembered the Mafia game now, knocked me off my tracks honestly.

I guess like hmmmmm.

I sense I am detracting from the game. A little dissapointed in myself.

It does not make a lot of sense. You claim to have read the thread but missed where I said I was leaning scum on Hector for his opening post? Are you sure you did not just skim the thread?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:57:42 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 02:53:58 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and unvote Hector and vote Roo

No offense roo, but you look incredibly suspicious right now.

that is okay. but what are you hoping to accomplish with your vote?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:59:28 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:56:20 pm

Quote from: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:48:31 pm

Damn, I completely forgot about this game, not due to lack of interest, simply because we've had a rough week full of exams, and hard ones at that. I've read up on the thread, and

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

this post sparked my attention. Are you implying that you are simply voting to lynch hector13 because you want to appear town? How does that work?

Excuse me if I'm not making any sense to you, just finished the exam week and only remembered the Mafia game now, knocked me off my tracks honestly.

I guess like hmmmmm.

I sense I am detracting from the game. A little dissapointed in myself.

It does not make a lot of sense. You claim to have read the thread but missed where I said I was leaning scum on Hector for his opening post? Are you sure you did not just skim the thread?

"Now why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched?"

That's the sentence that got me confused, as evidenced by the quotes, can you elaborate on that sentence?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:09:21 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:47:43 pm

Fairly certain we are out of it. Otherwise you would be still asking pointless questions.

I never said I know better than everyone. I might act like it. That should not stop you from simply calling me misguided or wrong or dumb or inexperienced. Do not blame me for your feelings of inferiority please.

No, we are not out of RQS, mainly because we only have info on you. We will be resorting to asking random questions to everyone else.

I get the feeling you dont understand what I'm saying. I'll try to explain with a couple questions.

Have you ever played mafia before? If not, have you read through any mafia games?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:15:08 pm

Quote from: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:59:28 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:56:20 pm

Quote from: Melanthius on February 25, 2015, 02:48:31 pm

Damn, I completely forgot about this game, not due to lack of interest, simply because we've had a rough week full of exams, and hard ones at that. I've read up on the thread, and

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 11:55:35 pm

hmmm you sound angry that is a good thing for me tho. Now whether that was genuine or not for a town read. From the previous comments in the thread I doubt that osg scum would fake emotion. so fairly certain osg is town. Also osg you are seriously gonna hate me :/. Now osg why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched? Would it not make people look closer at me? If so does that mean I don't mind people focusing on me? If that is the case why would a player not mind being focused?

this post sparked my attention. Are you implying that you are simply voting to lynch hector13 because you want to appear town? How does that work?

Excuse me if I'm not making any sense to you, just finished the exam week and only remembered the Mafia game now, knocked me off my tracks honestly.

I guess like hmmmmm.

I sense I am detracting from the game. A little dissapointed in myself.

It does not make a lot of sense. You claim to have read the thread but missed where I said I was leaning scum on Hector for his opening post? Are you sure you did not just skim the thread?

"Now why would I as scum insist that hector be lynched?"

That's the sentence that got me confused, as evidenced by the quotes, can you elaborate on that sentence?

Not really. hmmmmm I think I see your problem tho. Is it you do not ike that I am trying to clear myself via self meta-y techniques?
I did vote Hector because I was leaning scum on him and insisted he be voted mostly to get reactions as I have stated before. If someone did vote Hector I would certainly raise an eyebrow. It has already been pointed out several time that there was no case. And the vote was mostly a gut vote. I had nothing to go on and the rqs was doing nothing for me. So I used my gut read to get us out of rqs. I saw an opportunity to clear myself and took it no sense im being coy about it. why would I as scum do any of this? better yet why would a scum do any of the things I did?

everyone I have a town read on ggamer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 03:19:22 pm

Your "gut feelings" do not sway anybody. We need arguments for or against people.

Why is ggamer town?

I've told you this before and you haven't done it. You are seriously hurting town with your meaningless arguments and pretending to know everything. If you have questions, ask us. Don't just pretend you are god and put us out of RVS.

Unless you convince me that you can be a benefit to the town, Roo

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:20:55 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:09:21 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:47:43 pm

Fairly certain we are out of it. Otherwise you would be still asking pointless questions.

I never said I know better than everyone. I might act like it. That should not stop you from simply calling me misguided or wrong or dumb or inexperienced. Do not blame me for your feelings of inferiority please.

No, we are not out of RQS, mainly because we only have info on you. We will be resorting to asking random questions to everyone else.

I get the feeling you dont understand what I'm saying. I'll try to explain with a couple questions.

Have you ever played mafia before? If not, have you read through any mafia games?

You can also ask them questions about this situation. That would both advance the game and give you a feel for them based on actual game content. Like what Hector did. Melanthius completey forgoes rqs by with that question. It was a very townie question. hmmmmm
Unvote

Melanthius who are you leaning town on?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:24:06 pm

You arent answering his question. Basically, you're trying to get out of your predicament by saying that you didnt really mean what you said about hector. So, then, my question is when did your gambit end, and actual opinion start?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:26:04 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 03:19:22 pm

Your "gut feelings" do not sway anybody. We need arguments for or against people.

Why is ggamer town?

I've told you this before and you haven't done it. You are seriously hurting town with your meaningless arguments and pretending to know everything. If you have questions, ask us. Don't just pretend you are god and put us out of RVS.

Unless you convince me that you can be a benefit to the town, Roo

Well I did not know you wanted me to spoon feed you. I do not mind dying I still win with my faction. I suspect that will be an uphill battle for you guys tho if you want everything justified and reasoned and tabulated and officiated and notarized.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

EBWOP: You are still not answering my questions, roo. By not answering them, you are convincing me even more that you think you are above everyone else, which could very well be a symptom of being scum.

Now please, answer my questions!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:27:01 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:24:06 pm

You arent answering his question. Basically, you're trying to get out of your predicament by saying that you didnt really mean what you said about hector. So, then, my question is when did your gambit end, and actual opinion start?

I definitely did mean what I said about leaning scum on Hector.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:27:10 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:57:42 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 02:53:58 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and unvote Hector and vote Roo

No offense roo, but you look incredibly suspicious right now.

that is okay. but what are you hoping to accomplish with your vote?

To lynch you, obviously

Either your town, and your throwing up a mighty fucking effective smokescreen for the scum, or you're scum and you're getting incredibly defensive about nothing in particular. Either way, you're a threat to the pack, just as bad as scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:30:00 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

this is incredibly difficult on a phone.

Does that mean you were scared other people would actually vote for you? Based on zero evidence?
someone should be insulted.

Not especially. I want to know why you're encouraging other people to vote for me with zero evidence. That's scummy.

PPE: probably irrelevant now, given you've unvoted...

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

That sort of thing the why I am scumhunting sounds rational and profound but is not. You simply pointed out what I had been saying. I am not asking you questions because, as of yet, you haven't posted anything about anyone besides myself and yourself how can I move my read if you have not done anything?

Do you expect me to pull things from the ether? Of course I pointed out what you said, I'm addressing you and asking you to explain yourself. If anyone's not doing anything, it's you. You're not explaining yourself at all, and given that we need information, that's entirely unhelpful. All it does is make you look scummy.

That's also why you need to ask questions: to get a better read on people. If I give an example of a puzzle box, you might get answers by hitting it until it eventually breaks, but you're better examining it from all angles to figure out how it works/opens. It also makes you look intelligent enough that people are going to consider what you say better than "he's scum, you must vote", and, depending on the question, won't get you scumread quite so hard.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

pretty sure I am generating content albeit not myself but other people are now focusing on us. If they choose to say well he is just an idiot I am okay with that if others look more closely and see what I did was scummy but would I as scum do that? or would anybody as scum do that? In that regard I am clearly town.

The only person you're clearly town to is yourself. Presently, to at least me, you're clearly scum. You seem incredibly reticent to get information into the game by asking and answering questions, and the only ones who benefit from that are the scum.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

As for the double standard thing yes. As you said I know my role I don't know his.

Consider, that from Peradon's perspective, (assuming he's town) he doesn't know you're role either. That's why he wants you to clarify your position.

Spoiler: fluff on RVS (click to show/hide)

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

and I'd rather not discuss theory about being out of rvs as yes it is game related but in reality is just fluff posting *looks at first pages of the game again* yup just fluff posting. It only becomes relevant with flips.

That's good, I just want you to understand that it's not as black or white as you think.

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

thanks much for the advice. I am not gonna do it but thanks anyways. also brownie points for the melanthius s/o. My vote stays for the moment tho.

That's your prerogative, manny. You'll still get scum read by me for refusing to ask and answer questions. (strike-thru PPE)

Considering I'm not the only one who has suggested altering your playstyle, you may want to take the advice on board.

PPE: like a million posts man, pretty much saying what I have in this post. Bastards... fuck y'all, I'm not changing it :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:30:15 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

EBWOP: You are still not answering my questions, roo. By not answering them, you are convincing me even more that you think you are above everyone else, which could very well be a symptom of being scum.

Now please, answer my questions!

or what you will vote me? lol

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:33:36 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:30:15 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

EBWOP: You are still not answering my questions, roo. By not answering them, you are convincing me even more that you think you are above everyone else, which could very well be a symptom of being scum.

Now please, answer my questions!

or what you will vote me? lol

Given that you've got... 4 votes I think?... you probably shouldn't be so cavalier about encouraging other people to vote for you. It's bad play as either alignment.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:34:51 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:33:36 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:30:15 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

EBWOP: You are still not answering my questions, roo. By not answering them, you are convincing me even more that you think you are above everyone else, which could very well be a symptom of being scum.

Now please, answer my questions!

or what you will vote me? lol

Given that you've got... 4 votes I think?... you probably shouldn't be so cavalier about encouraging other people to vote for you. It's bad play as either alignment.

they are already voting me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:35:38 pm

also never mind on the town read on ggamer. That most recent post bleh.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:35:55 pm

Why don't you do something that encourages them to vote for someone else then?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:41:22 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:30:15 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 pm

EBWOP: You are still not answering my questions, roo. By not answering them, you are convincing me even more that you think you are above everyone else, which could very well be a symptom of being scum.

Now please, answer my questions!

or what you will vote me? lol

Your attitude here is exactly what I'm talking about. You sound like you think you're a freakin' god.
Your blatant refusal to answer my questions solidifies my thoughts about you. You are either scum, or you just want to ruin the game.

Either way, you need to be lynched.

Now, because we are so totally tunneling....

Everyone: Lets assume that Roo gets lynched and flips as scum. Who would be your next top scum-read?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:43:04 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:41:22 pm

Everyone: Lets assume that Roo gets lynched and flips as scum. Who would be your next top scum-read?

It's so damn hard to tell with two pages of Roo and other people arguing, but i'd have to say Cryxis. He hasn't been posting much, seems to be enjoying the smokescreen a bit too much, savvy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 03:45:18 pm

That'l depend on how he flips.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:46:07 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:41:22 pm

Lets assume that Roo gets lynched and flips as scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:53:53 pm

Probably Origami because of this post:

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 08:33:19 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

Origami: If you were scum, would you kill the most experianced player, or a lurker? Why?

The IC because they are the biggest threat for me.

He did say specifically that the ICs were threats for him personally, which doesn't seem town motivated.

I don't really like having more scum reads than there are scum in the game, but ggamer is also a bit suspect.

I mentioned I found their questions here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6060909#msg6060909) a bit suspect, and they've not mentioned it since. (my suspicion is outlined in the post after that one)

These two are kind of close though, so that's why I'm not sure between the two of them. Perhaps they could both clarify their positions?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:56:24 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:53:53 pm

These two are kind of close though, so that's why I'm not sure between the two of them. Perhaps they could both clarify their positions?

haha whups my bad man

The reason I was asking those questions was mainly because they were the first that came to mind, honestly. Plus, if I really needed help that bad I would ask scum IC in whatever chat they had, not on the thread where everyone can see.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 03:59:58 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:53:53 pm

Probably Origami because of this post:

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 24, 2015, 08:33:19 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 24, 2015, 08:29:37 pm

Origami: If you were scum, would you kill the most experianced player, or a lurker? Why?

The IC because they are the biggest threat for me.

He did say specifically that the ICs were threats for him personally, which doesn't seem town motivated.

This was a hypothetical question, so I gave a hypothetical answer. If I were mafia, the IC would be the biggest threat to me. Do you not agree?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 04:05:34 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 03:59:58 pm

This was a hypothetical question, so I gave a hypothetical answer. If I were mafia, the IC would be the biggest threat to me. Do you not agree?

Probably. Why didn't you say at the time you were talking hypothetically? It looks to me that you forgot it was an imaginary situation and answered honestly.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 04:07:59 pm

because Peradon already said that it was a hypothetical when he asked the question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 04:25:18 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:56:24 pm

Plus, if I really needed help that bad I would ask scum IC in whatever chat they had, not on the thread where everyone can see.

ggamer:Are you saying that you have a chat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 04:27:42 pm

He is reponding to a hypotheticlel question, just like i was.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 04:30:05 pm

I wasn't asking a hypothetical question, though...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 04:32:34 pm

I also don't like it when I forget to be condescending in a post :O

D'you see now, roo, how asking questions is beneficial to us? We find out why people said what they did, we clarify what they were saying if we misunderstood. Thus we can move on with our reads, and a better played game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 04:32:50 pm

Sorry. I just took the SAT so I'm a bit braindead.

I meant he responded hypothetically. "if I were scum"

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 05:00:32 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 04:25:18 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:56:24 pm

Plus, if I really needed help that bad I would ask scum IC in whatever chat they had, not on the thread where everyone can see.

ggamer:Are you saying that you have a chat?

no, i'm saying they have a chat. Says it right there in the OP.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 05:10:04 pm

Ok, just testing you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 25, 2015, 07:24:04 pm

Quote from: ggamer on February 25, 2015, 03:43:04 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 03:41:22 pm

Everyone: Lets assume that Roo gets lynched and flips as scum. Who would be your next top scum-read?

It's so damn hard to tell with two pages of Roo and other people arguing, but i'd have to say Cryxis. He hasn't been posting much, seems to be enjoying the smokescreen a bit too much, savvy?

Sorry
I have school and am busy this week .-.
And nothing has come up that requires me to speak .-.
I've answered the questions and am currently just watching I have no questions
If you want me to speak then talk to me

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Silthuri on February 25, 2015, 10:30:45 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Deathsword,
origamiscienceguy:
Peradon:
Melanthius:
ggamer:
hector13:
roo: Peradon, hector13, ggamer, origamiscienceguy,
Deathsword:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Cryxis, Melanthius, Nerjin

Day One will end Friday, February 27 at 6pm EST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 25, 2015, 10:36:41 pm

Why doth thoust vote one me? .-.
What hath I done?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 25, 2015, 10:42:50 pm

It's leftover from the Random Voting Stage. Often, people start the game off with randomly voting for someone. Its nothing to worry about really.

Although, if I were you, I would start asking questions soon. It looks like you're a scum when you lurk.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 25, 2015, 10:47:08 pm

I don't know what to ask .-.
I'm just watching for suspicious peeps
I don't want to question and look like I'm covering up something

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 25, 2015, 10:49:58 pm

That is basically what I did last begginers mafia game, and it didn't work at all. My advice; look for something vague or unclear that someone said and question them on it and ask for clarification. That usually gets a conversation going.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:42:07 am

Cryxis: Which would you prefer, mafia or town? Why?
Origami: If you had a choice, would you be a jailkeeper or a sane cop? Why?
Roo: How experianced are you with mafia?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 11:48:06 am

Quote from: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:42:07 am

Cryxis: Which would you prefer, mafia or town? Why?

For playing or acctually in game?
if for playing I would acctualy preffer mafia for the fun of it
in game I preffer town because someone killed the alpha

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:49:45 am

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 11:48:06 am

in game I preffer town because someone killed the alpha

I dont understand what you mean here. Could you clarify?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 11:53:25 am

SOMEONE HAS KILLED OUR ALPHA AND MUST PAY!
Are you not worried about this?
Do you think he should have died?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:56:02 am

Oh right. I forgot about the flavor.
Nevermind then.

But really, as far as practical playing, would you prefer mafia or town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 11:58:03 am

if we are talking out of character then ya I would prefer to play mafia just because its the fun part of the game, trying not to get caught and all

but guess who didn't get the fun role?!?  >:(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 26, 2015, 12:08:12 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:49:45 am

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 11:48:06 am

in game I preffer town because someone killed the alpha

I dont understand what you mean here. Could you clarify?

hmmmmm did you just tell everyone you aren't vanilla?

peradon

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 12:16:29 pm

Quote from: roo on February 26, 2015, 12:08:12 pm

hmmmmm did you just tell everyone you aren't vanilla?

peradon

How did I tell everyone that I'm scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Teneb on February 26, 2015, 12:23:24 pm

PFP (posting from phone/profession)

A heads up: won't be able to do any posts today, probably.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 26, 2015, 12:31:49 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:56:02 am

Oh right. I forgot about the flavor.
Nevermind then.

But really, as far as practical playing, would you prefer mafia or town?

I find this extremely difficult to believe. It is like the only thing in our pm. So that guy umm crisis is probably town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: roo on February 26, 2015, 12:32:31 pm

Cryxis*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on February 26, 2015, 02:58:44 pm

Roo, I think everybody has stopped taking your votes seriously. You have to act serious if you want to be taken seriously.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 26, 2015, 02:59:48 pm

Quote from: roo on February 26, 2015, 12:31:49 pm

Quote from: Peradon on February 26, 2015, 11:56:02 am

Oh right. I forgot about the flavor.
Nevermind then.

But really, as far as practical playing, would you prefer mafia or town?

I find this extremely difficult to believe. It is like the only thing in our pm. So that guy umm crisis is probably town.

Except for, you know, roles and stuff.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Silthuri on February 26, 2015, 08:37:05 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Deathsword,
origamiscienceguy:
Peradon: roo
Melanthius:
ggamer:
hector13:
roo: Peradon, hector13, ggamer, origamiscienceguy,
Deathsword:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Cryxis, Melanthius, Nerjin

Day One will end Friday, February 27 at 6pm EST. (Roughly 21.5 hours from now. )

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Nerjin on February 26, 2015, 08:42:44 pm

Cyrix Please play the game actively. You'll have a lot more fun, everyone else will have more fun, and you'll be far more effective. It can be scary to try but remember: It's better to lose a game you had fun in than win a game you had nothing at all to do with. Day 1's almost over. Who do you suspect most right now?

Roo: You need to play a bit more seriously with actual logic. You're on the chopping block. You need to start making sense or you will get lynched no doubt. This is poor for both town and scum depending on your team. You are also only throwing up a smoke screen for scum if you are town and you are only playing against your wincon if you're scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 26, 2015, 09:07:31 pm

How's about you Nerjin, what are your reads?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Nerjin on February 26, 2015, 09:21:16 pm

Day 1? All I can offer is who I think need to step up their game and who is harmful to town.

Roo - Harmful to town regardless of his alignment due to his smoke-screen. Needs to work harder at the game.

Cyrix - Needs to step up his game.

Melan - Needs to actually say something...

Everyone else is a null read due to lack of time and such.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Nerjin on February 26, 2015, 09:21:34 pm

Roo

By the way.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 26, 2015, 09:47:29 pm

Hey I'm sorry
I've been very buisy
It's either been loads of math homework or today I had a seech meet that took up most of the day.
What do I suspect, I suspect that too will be lynched

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 27, 2015, 02:44:51 pm

This an extremely slow game....

We need some action! Hey IC's, maybe a critique or something?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 27, 2015, 03:47:25 pm

I guess I might as well throw a vote
roo

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 27, 2015, 03:49:09 pm

What is your reasoning for voting roo, cryxis?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 27, 2015, 04:02:46 pm

They seem to have been asking a lot of questions, my vote really doesn't matter this round, and there are already like 4-5 votes on roo.
Still random voting though

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 27, 2015, 04:05:58 pm

So you don't think roo is particularly scummy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 27, 2015, 04:07:23 pm

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 27, 2015, 04:02:46 pm

They seem to have been asking a lot of questions, my vote really doesn't matter this round, and there are already like 4-5 votes on roo.
Still random voting though

The point of random voting is to get players to talk. Unfortunately, players arent talking...

Roo, what do you say in your defence at this point?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on February 27, 2015, 04:09:31 pm

if I had to choose someone it would be roo, they have spiked my suspicion the most.
I'm not a great judge of this sort of stuff though.
They seem to have spiked everyone esle's suspicion as well since (even if they aren't scum and both the scum voted on them) almost everyone else has voted for roo

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 27, 2015, 04:33:34 pm

So you think roo is scum because everyone else thinks roo is scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Silthuri on February 27, 2015, 04:45:16 pm

Pfp

So due to poor planning, I won't be here to end the day on time. I expect all you kiddies to shush at the appropriate time. I won't count anything after 6pm EST. Just a heads up.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: hector13 on February 27, 2015, 04:46:34 pm

So that's about an hour?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Silthuri on February 27, 2015, 04:48:42 pm

Yes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Peradon on February 27, 2015, 04:52:54 pm

Well. Hmm. This was an interesting day one.

Also, IC's..

Ya'll need to speak up! Maybe say something about silent D1's!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day One Has Begun!
Post by: Silthuri on February 28, 2015, 11:55:30 am

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Deathsword,
origamiscienceguy:
Peradon: roo
Melanthius:
ggamer:
hector13:
roo: Peradon, hector13, ggamer, origamiscienceguy, Nerjin, Cryxis
Deathsword:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Melanthius

With the first day drawing to a close, the pack unanimously decides that roo is the killer. They close in around him, and with grim glee, the other wolves swarm him. Upon his death, however, none can smell blood on his breath. He was not one of the betrayers. With heavy hearts, the wolves settle down for the night.

Roo has been lynched! He was a vanilla townie!

Night One has begun and will end at ~6pm EST on Monday, March 2, 2015. If you have a night action, please PM me you action before that time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Silthuri on March 03, 2015, 10:32:16 am

Dawn breaks over the quiet woods. The chill in the air becomes more pronounced as the breeze ruffles the fur of the awakening wolves. The scent of blood is carried on the wind, however. A quick search reveals the body of origamiscienceguy. The search for the killers resumes with renewed vigor with the pack now knowing that the betrayers have turned on them as well.

origamiscienceguy has been killed! He was a vanilla townie!

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
Peradon:
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13:
Deathsword:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Everyone

UXLZ has replaced Melanthius.

Day 2 has begun and will end Friday, March 6 at 10:30am EST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 10:51:49 am

Hmmmmm

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: origamiscienceguy on March 03, 2015, 11:17:18 am

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pr2uMPef0n4/Utq5q-mx0mI/AAAAAAAAAVY/c6DS92qHRII/s1600/keep-calm-i-am-dying.png)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 12:01:04 pm

UXLZ do you have any thoughts on D1?

Deathsword you were the only one not voting for roo, why was that?

I... think we're still in RVS :-\

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 01:23:51 pm

Ok, I have a really bad feeling about this game.

What worries me is that the IC's are being very lurky. That is not good... at all.

So...

Nerjin/Deathsword:Why have you been so lurky?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Teneb on March 03, 2015, 04:56:12 pm

I was about to hit post on D1 when the thread was locked. Anyway, Replacement Request. Got some bad flu and I can barely think straight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 05:07:42 pm

Silthuri: Put me on the replacement list, please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:15:03 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on March 03, 2015, 04:56:12 pm

I was about to hit post on D1 when the thread was locked. Anyway, Replacement Request. Got some bad flu and I can barely think straight.

Shoot....

Well, I hope you get better.

So, this game is going really, really bad. We need to get people talking!

Cryxis: Why did you target Origami for the night kill?

Hector: Do you have any suspects? What did you think of the night kill?

ggamer: If you had to pick, would you rather have a power role, or not? Why?

Nerjin: Come on, post! Say something! Who do you suspect the most? Why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:17:57 pm

I don't have suspects, because not much happened on D1, so... we get no info from the lynch or the NK.

What about yourself Peradon? Reads, and why did you kill Origami.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:32:19 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:17:57 pm

What about yourself Peradon? Reads, and why did you kill Origami.

This game is so silent, I dont have many reads, but I'll post them anyway..

ggamer: Has a scum-lean due to slight bandwagoning in reply #97. He also didnt invest much of anything into argument with roo.
[Insert everyone Lurking here]
Hector: Most active person here. That is really the only thing going for you though, because we dont have much of anything on anybody. Town-Null read.

In short: Lurkers 2: The Lurkers Strike again!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:39:30 pm

Well, some more RVS questions then...

Questions for everyone:

Who would you investigate if you were the cop?

Who would you target if you were the jailkeeper (protects from kills, but blocks from doing night actions)?

Cryxis, ggamer what are you hoping to learn from this if you're not taking part? :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:43:16 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:39:30 pm

Questions for everyone:

Who would you investigate if you were the cop?

Who would you target if you were the jailkeeper (protects from kills, but blocks from doing night actions)?

If I were the cop, I would investigate either ggamer or Nerjin. Knowing I could trust the IC would be a huge advantage...

Thats if the IC ever posted....

If I were the jailor, I would jail either UXLZ or the guy who's replacing the DS.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:01:27 pm

Why would you jail the two replacement players?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:03:17 pm

They would be a good night target. They havent had a chance to get much info out and they are both experianced.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:05:37 pm

Nobody has any information right now anyway :P

We know roo was town, but his accusations were baseless, so it would be silly to pick up on them. Origami was already voting for roo, so nothing to gain there.

Why do you think Origami was targeted?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:11:50 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:05:37 pm

Why do you think Origami was targeted?

He was one of the few semi-active people, so maybe they are killing based off of that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:16:35 pm

So... should we be looking at less-active players as most viable scum-spects?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:19:20 pm

Really, I have no idea. We need some lurkers to stop lurking. Maybe we might get some action when UXLZ and Jack A T come in.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Silthuri on March 03, 2015, 06:39:08 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 05:07:42 pm

Silthuri: Put me on the replacement list, please.

I'll go ahead and put you in if you're okay with it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 06:44:32 pm

Quote from: Silthuri on March 03, 2015, 06:39:08 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 05:07:42 pm

Silthuri: Put me on the replacement list, please.

I'll go ahead and put you in if you're okay with it.

Silthuri: Sounds good.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:52:04 pm

Hector: I just read over the past page or so. Your interaction with me seems a bit like buddying. I have my eye on you...

Welcome, Jack!

What do you think of the interactions/lack thereof so far?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:53:41 pm

Dude, nothing happened on D1 that we can bring into D2.

You're the only other person around, and I don't want the scum to get another victory because some of the town were lurking.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 06:57:33 pm

Just posting to say I've received my role and will be pulling together a post soon.  It's going to be a bit of a long one, so it will take some time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Silthuri on March 03, 2015, 06:58:19 pm

Jack A T has replaced Deathsword!

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Peradon
Peradon:
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13:
Jack A T:
Nerjin:

Not voting: Everyone but Peradon

Day 2 will end Friday, March 6 at 10:30am EST.[/b]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:02:11 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:53:41 pm

Dude, nothing happened on D1 that we can bring into D2.

You're the only other person around, and I don't want the scum to get another victory because some of the town were lurking.

What does this have to do with buddying?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:03:45 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:02:11 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:53:41 pm

Dude, nothing happened on D1 that we can bring into D2.

You're the only other person around, and I don't want the scum to get another victory because some of the town were lurking.

What does this have to do with buddying?

Well I should actually ask you why my questions seemed like buddying to you, actually. That's more sensible.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:08:50 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:16:35 pm

So... should we be looking at less-active players as most viable scum-spects?

It was this post that struck me as slight buddying. It looks like you either assumed that I'm town, or that you know I'm town. I may be overreacting, but it struck me as odd that you would say it that way.

Also, you just dodged my question again. What did your response have to do with buddying?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:06 pm

Because you're the only person posting, and you at least seem townie because of your activity and desire to see activity from everyone else.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:19:12 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:06 pm

Because you're the only person posting, and you at least seem townie because of your activity and desire to see activity from everyone else.

And this is enough for you to assume that I am town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:19:54 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:19:12 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:06 pm

Because you're the only person posting, and you at least seem townie because of your activity and desire to see activity from everyone else.

And this is enough for you to assume that I am town?

For the time being, yes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 03, 2015, 08:54:37 pm

Currently at school. I'll be going over stuff when I get back home.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Apologies for the messiness of this post.  This is a messy game.

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:15:03 pm

So, this game is going really, really bad.

I completely agree.

Hi.  I'm Jack A T, your new IC (feel free to ask me anything), and I'm a bit annoyed.  Why am I a bit annoyed?  Because I watched D1 as six players, including one of the ICs, lynched an incredibly obvious (at least to me) townie.  I don't get strong reads normally, and I was getting a very strong town read on roo.  He was disruptive, arrogant, and pretty incomprehensible, yes, but his actions made pretty much no sense for scum.  He was quite obviously used to playing elsewhere (clear signs of experience (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061041#msg6061041), plus significantly different playstyle from the local one), and was quite clearly trying to push everyone out of RVS as soon as possible.  It was a poor plan done quite poorly, but that's basically what he did.  And then he floundered under pressure.  Not answering questions didn't help at all, too.

---

So, let's do one of the best things that can be done on D2 and look at the pile of information we have.  We now know that roo and OrigamiScienceGuy were town, and it's pretty safe to assume that at least one of the scum was on the easy roowagon.

Spoiler: An examination of yesterday's roo votes (click to show/hide)

The first vote for roo was Peradon's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061320#msg6061320) for incomprehensibility and refusal to answer questions.  Nothing all that unreasonable about this vote.

Next: hector13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061816#msg6061816), initially as a pressure vote to try to get roo to explain his vote.  It grew.  I understand how a reasonable player could vote like this.  hector13 interacted the most with roo, though, and that generated some content worth examining...

...And then the voting goes downhill.  ggamer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062289#msg6062289) votes for roo for a simple reason: roo looks suspicious.  How exactly, we only learn in ggamer's next post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062361#msg6062361): overdefensiveness (Where?  He doesn't say.).  Also general negative impact whether town or scum.  This is ggamer's first game, though, and we haven't had much IC activity, so I find it hard to read much into this.

Next: origamiscienceguy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062344#msg6062344), now known to be a townie, joins the rather large wagon, going after roo for arrogance and lack of explanations of anything.  Not much to say here.

By this point, the idea that roo should be lynched even if town was getting pretty strong, but at least those voting him leaned towards him being scum.  Not so with Nerjin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6065370#msg6065370), who takes no position on roo's townhood or scumhood (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6065369#msg6065369), and just votes for him because he's damaging town.  Not a good vote at all.  Uncaring about the alignment of the lynched, and absolutely positionless.  Troubling.

Finally, Cryxis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6067053#msg6067053)... I don't even know.  Aimlessness, but newbie aimlessness.

ggamer and Cryxis: Please, when you vote in the future, give your reasons with your votes.  Also, please give evidence backing your reasons (quotes, links to posts, etc.).

Cryxis: Most players here aren't good judges of what is scummy and what isn't.  That comes with time and experience, and this is a game full of newbies.  Some advice:
*Try to figure out what about a player spikes your suspicion.  Get as specific as you can.  It's often hard, and people still end up with pure gut reads at times, but specificity is useful.
*Look for things that feel off somehow, and ask questions about them.  In fact, ask questions in general.  They help generate material to find suspicious.
*Be confident.  We all screw up, misread people, and such.  Confidence, however, puts people under more pressure when you go after them.  Besides, reads are to be improved over time.

Also, hector asked you a question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6067167#msg6067167).

---

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:17:57 pm

I don't have suspects, because not much happened on D1, so... we get no info from the lynch or the NK.

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:05:37 pm

Nobody has any information right now anyway :P
We know roo was town, but his accusations were baseless, so it would be silly to pick up on them. Origami was already voting for roo, so nothing to gain there.

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:53:41 pm

Dude, nothing happened on D1 that we can bring into D2.

hector13: This is wrong.  It is hard to overemphasize how wrong it is.  We had a sizable wagon on a townie.  One which almost certainly had scum on it.  One which people gave reasons for.  One which can be examined, can be analyzed, and such.  There is information there.  And you're not so inexperienced that this set of statements makes sense from you.

hector13, why do you so dislike the idea of us looking at D1?  Furthermore, why even ask UXLZ for his thoughts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6076528#msg6076528) on D1 if you're so convinced it's worthless?  Do you like asking people to do things you think are worthless for some reason?

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:30:00 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

Does that mean you were scared other people would actually vote for you? Based on zero evidence?
someone should be insulted.

Not especially. I want to know why you're encouraging other people to vote for me with zero evidence. That's scummy.

What do you think roo was implying about the nature of his vote in that quote?

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

And everyone I was not sure sure. I was just going with my gut and trying to get reactions. tho those reactions were Lolwut ones.

And how about this quote, from a post I know you read (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062088#msg6062088)?  Is there a reason you completely ignored this line about reaction testing?

---

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

Peradon, hector13, ggamer, and cryxis: What led you to believe that roo's behaviour was specifically scum behaviour?  Do you think scum would act so disruptively D1?

Nerjin, that was quite the vote D1.  You jumped on a big bandwagon without even having an explicit position on roo's alignment.  Was that really the best you could do?

---

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:39:30 pm

Who would you investigate if you were the cop?
Who would you target if you were the jailkeeper (protects from kills, but blocks from doing night actions)?

hector13: Nerjin for both.  For cop, he's an experienced player I have a mild read on.  For jailkeeper, he's an experienced player (high value scum target if town) and one I have a mild scum read on (possible NKer).

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:52:04 pm

What do you think of the interactions/lack thereof so far?

Peradon: Everyone active hounded down a townie and almost nothing else was done.  People failed to examine each other.  I think the rest of my post serves as a good answer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: ggamer on March 03, 2015, 10:05:37 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

ggamer and Cryxis: Please, when you vote in the future, give your reasons with your votes.  Also, please give evidence backing your reasons (quotes, links to posts, etc.).

Quote

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

Quote

Peradon, hector13, ggamer, and cryxis: What led you to believe that roo's behaviour was specifically scum behaviour?  Do you think scum would act so disruptively D1?

These are sort of asking me the same question, so i'll lump 'em together

I'll say what I said earlier: I may be a new player without a good way to tell scum from town, but I do realize when a player is distracting from a real investigation. You'll notice that, because of roo, we're still in RVS because we don't know anything about anybody else but roo.

I may have thought he was scum D1, but now i'm not so sure. Mainly because, like a couple people have said, it'd be a pretty dumb play for scum to be that disruptive on D1. Still, I stand by my decision.

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:15:03 pm

ggamer: If you had to pick, would you rather have a power role, or not? Why?

I think, honestly, i'd rather be townie. Being power role means you're concerned about revealing your role, always worried about one thing or another. As townie, you get to investigate without any worry for giving up a role or making yourself a high value target.

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:39:30 pm

Cryxis, ggamer what are you hoping to learn from this if you're not taking part? :P

Was I? Shit! I'll try to be a bit more attentive to the board.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 10:16:47 pm

Reply #201
I seem to be extremely buisy for a game like this, not all that much time to read a lot of text until late at night hours after questions are asked and suspicions grow:
I will not answer his question as he has no proof that I am targeting anyone nor will I justify such a question.



I vote Hector because he seems to be constantly accusing me of being scum and he is tipping my suspicion.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 10:31:42 pm

Quote

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

ggamer: I meant, in this question, to ask about a bit more than your own vote.  This isn't RVS, even if some people are acting like it is.  We have material to analyze: a bunch of people's efforts to lynch roo, and some other discussion.  People voted at different times and with different reasons, and there is much to learn about the players from their actions D1 (and even from the actions so far D2).  Look through stuff, find something odd or questionable or interesting, and ask about it.

Quote from: ggamer on March 03, 2015, 10:05:37 pm

I may have thought he was scum D1, but now i'm not so sure. Mainly because, like a couple people have said, it'd be a pretty dumb play for scum to be that disruptive on D1. Still, I stand by my decision.

Well, we kind of know he's town now.  He flipped town.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 10:16:47 pm

I seem to be extremely buisy for a game like this, not all that much time to read a lot of text until late at night hours after questions are asked and suspicions grow:

Cryxis: Alright.  Mafia is a rather time-intensive game.  Please do try to answer my questions when you have the time.  Also, don't worry about not being able to act when everyone else is active: this is a forum, after all.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 10:16:47 pm

I vote Hector because he seems to be constantly accusing me of being scum and he is tipping my suspicion.

Is there something scummy about him accusing you of being scum?  How is he tipping your suspicion?  Finally, where has Hector even accused you at all?  I will remind you, this is the question you're announcing you will not answer:

Quote from: hector13 on February 27, 2015, 04:33:34 pm

So you think roo is scum because everyone else thinks roo is scum?

You voted roo. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6067053#msg6067053)  Your limited reasons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6067111#msg6067111) involved him spiking your suspicions (though you didn't explain how), and you brought in the fact that he was suspected by several other players.  You could have responded to this question with a yes, or a no, or preferably one of those and an explanation.  Why refuse to answer?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:19:47 pm

#204


Is he not the one that just asked why I targeted the night kill or was the question that post?

I didn't target a night kill because I'm not scum

I voted roo because they were asking a lot of questions and everyone else was already voting on roo.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 11:25:58 pm

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:19:47 pm

Is he not the one that just asked why I targeted the night kill or was the question that post?

Ah.  No, that was Peradon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077303#msg6077303) (#177).

I'll take it you're posting by phone or something?

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:19:47 pm

I voted roo because they were asking a lot of questions and everyone else was already voting on roo.

Bit of advice: Asking a lot of questions is a good thing.  We want lots of questions.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:56:51 pm

#206
Yes I'm posting from phone

And I'm going to rip my eyes out at this point
I get hector and Peradon mixed up way too often.



Move vote from hector to Peradon

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Night 1 has Fallen
Post by: Nerjin on March 04, 2015, 12:10:10 am

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 01:23:51 pm

Nerjin/Deathsword:Why have you been so lurky?

Read my signature man. I am absolutely swamped this week. I'm doing what I can. Luckily I have some free time tomorrow so... better post on that day.

Please get off my back with the prods though. I'm doing the best I can with the time I have.

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 05:39:30 pm

Questions for everyone:

Who would you investigate if you were the cop?

Who would you target if you were the jailkeeper (protects from kills, but blocks from doing night actions)?

I would Investigate Darksword Jack AT because... Well he's an IC so I'm most worried about him being scum. If I were Jailkeeper? I wouldn't at this point. I have no idea who is scum and who might be a power role. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Nerjin, that was quite the vote D1.  You jumped on a big bandwagon without even having an explicit position on roo's alignment.  Was that really the best you could do?

I'll look over you post in more detail tomorrow since I'm technically supposed to be doing school work right now but I figured I should pop into the game and mention some stuff. ANYWAYS: Was it the best I could do? No. I'll go ahead and admit that. I stand by my decision though. Roo was being far too harmful to town with his flailing and sending up a dust screen. In retrospect does he look scum? I suppose not. In retrospect does he look like a harmful player for town? Yes.

Better reads and stuff tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

Peradon, hector13, ggamer, and cryxis: What led you to believe that roo's behaviour was specifically scum behaviour?  Do you think scum would act so disruptively D1?

I didnt think about the lynch in those terms, but I guess you have a point. Right now, the most scummy would be ggamer and Nerjin. ggamer because he didnt give a good reason for voting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062289#msg6062289), basically saying he's suspicous. I mentioned this earlier, very briefly. Nerjin, basically for what you said.

Roo's not answering my questions was what caused me to vote for him. In my view, not answering questions is very scummy, because only scum should have something to hide.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:19:47 pm

Is he not the one that just asked why I targeted the night kill or was the question that post?

I didn't target a night kill because I'm not scum

That was a trick question. I was trying to make you slip up, and make a stupid excuse. It was also an attempt to get you into the game a little. Since you didnt slip up, Unvote.

Jack What does your IC text look like?
Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.
ggamer: What was you're reason for voting rue? Were you just joining the bandwagon?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

Oh God Jack I love you; some content!

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

hector13, why do you so dislike the idea of us looking at D1?  Furthermore, why even ask UXLZ for his thoughts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6076528#msg6076528) on D1 if you're so convinced it's worthless?  Do you like asking people to do things you think are worthless for some reason?

I don't dislike the idea of us looking at D1, I just don't think there's much value there. This is my opinion, and I'm glad it's not shared by at least one other person.

This is why I asked UXLZ, a fresh player to the game, what they thought because they would hopefully have seen something I overlooked. I would've asked you the same thing, had my brain not been scrambled from so much insomnia.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

hector13: This is wrong.  It is hard to overemphasize how wrong it is.  We had a sizable wagon on a townie.  One which almost certainly had scum on it.  One which people gave reasons for.  One which can be examined, can be analyzed, and such.  There is information there.  And you're not so inexperienced that this set of statements makes sense from you.

I appreciate that you think that of me, but the only information that seems to be there is the conversation I had with roo and the reasons people gave for voting them.

Having been involved in the conversation, I'm not sure I can analyse it, but if people have questions about it that's a good thing. Fire away, peeps.

I don't think there's much value in D1 because pretty much every player voted for roo, and the two players who didn't replaced out, so it could be that they would've voted for roo, too. Some of the players are new, so don't quite know what's scummy and anti-town, or that there's a difference between the two, so that might not be so useful either. I may be wrong in that view, though.

Ggamer, for example, said that roo's behaviour was suspicious (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062289#msg6062289), but didn't say why, and Cryxis didn't give a reason either (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6067053#msg6067053), though you've already pointed that out to them.

Spoiler: things on roo (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 25, 2015, 03:30:00 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 02:40:01 pm

Does that mean you were scared other people would actually vote for you? Based on zero evidence?
someone should be insulted.

Not especially. I want to know why you're encouraging other people to vote for me with zero evidence. That's scummy.

What do you think roo was implying about the nature of his vote in that quote?

I don't like the feel of this question, but that's probably more of a pedantic thing... I don't know what he implied, but I'll tell you what I inferred.

I inferred from the first and second questions that they thought my reaction is scummy, because I felt the need to defend myself. This generally happens when someone votes me though, irrespective of it being an RVS or "real" vote. Every vote, however well-justified, is a step closer to a lynch.

The third question I inferred that they thought I was insulting the rest of the town by worrying that others would join them in voting for me, based on their non-reasons for voting me. Doesn't mean it can't happen.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 11:48:27 am

And everyone I was not sure sure. I was just going with my gut and trying to get reactions. tho those reactions were Lolwut ones.

And how about this quote, from a post I know you read (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062088#msg6062088)?  Is there a reason you completely ignored this line about reaction testing?

I don't really know what to say to things like that, I think that's the first time someone has tested me in such a way.

"Nice reaction test, you've just turned the entire town against you"?

I thought it was them trying to back out of behaviour that a number of people were seeing as scummy.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

Like I say, 6 of the 8 players that could voted for roo, and the other two replaced out. That's part of the reason why I didn't think we can gain much from looking at it, at least beyond the reasons that people said they voted for roo.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

Peradon, hector13, ggamer, and cryxis: What led you to believe that roo's behaviour was specifically scum behaviour?  Do you think scum would act so disruptively D1?

To answer your second question first, it now does seem unlikely. However, counter-question: do you think it's wise to keep that disruptive influence in the game? Roo's opinion, based on what happened, would have been a devalued currency after that, so even if they hadn't been lynched, I'm not sure what they could've added to the game that anyone would take seriously.

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it. I don't mind votes on me, so long as I can address the reason behind it. None was given (other than buddying; read my response to Perry for what I think about that) despite people asking for it, and despite their assertions we were out of RVS, kept moving their vote around without much behind it, so I kept my vote on them.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

Why do people keep doing that? Words in my mouth and everything.

I don't like it when people are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say you could be trusted because you were active, I said I was trusting you, for the time being, because you were the only other active player at that point. Scum don't have any reason to keep the game moving by posting, so I was quite happy to read you as town while I was waiting for everyone else to get involved.

The questions I was asking you were utter shite, mostly because I was tired (I went to bed about an hour after my last post, and then woke up 3 hours later. Yay!) and I was trying to get more information in the game because, like I said before, I didn't think D1 would garner much intelligence. That doesn't work well when your brain is running on fumes, apparently.

I don't think suspected buddying is enough to vote for someone to be lynched, and you're also voting for me despite saying two other players are scummier than me, so if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're quite as towny anymore, Peradon

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:59:55 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

Why do people keep doing that? Words in my mouth and everything.

I don't like it when people are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say you could be trusted because you were active, I said I was trusting you, for the time being, because you were the only other active player at that point. Scum don't have any reason to keep the game moving by posting, so I was quite happy to read you as town while I was waiting for everyone else to get involved.

How is that putting words in your mouth? I dont like the fact that you were not trying to scumhunt me at all, mainly because I was active. The fact that I am active, and was present to answer questions should have spurred you to scumhunt me. Instead, you resign to ask questions to the lurkers, who dont answer questions very much.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

I don't think suspected buddying is enough to vote for someone to be lynched, and you're also voting for me despite saying two other players are scummier than me, so if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're quite as towny anymore, Peradon

First off, where did I say that there were other people more scummy than you? I'm fairly certain I didnt. I think I know who you are talking about, mainly Nerjin and ggamer. But I find buddying to be a much bigger scumtell than Lurking.

Plus, that was an OMGUS if I ever saw one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

Note: Went to post this and forum maintenance. Guess I'll get around to it tomorrow morning.

Getting introductions out of the way, I'm UXLZ and I am replacing in for Melanthius. I'm not officially an IC, but I'll be trying to give advice regardless. (Take anything I say with a grain of salt however, because I don't have the 'this is definitely true' IC text. An important thing to do in Mafia is have a healthy suspicion of what other people say unless it's confirm-able via cross referencing.)
Before I start, noting that newbies tend to have their opinion massively swayed by relatively minor things... Try not to become certain that someone is scum due to a single post (or town for that matter.) You need to look at a sizable chunk of content and take everything into account.
Fairly long post written in a weird order, so I might repeat myself from time to time. Sorry about that.

Okay then, let's get into stuff... Do note that I'm mostly (not entirely) ignoring D1, so if there's something important there, my apologies if I missed it. It is an incredibly messy day.

@Jack:

Quote from: Jack

Because I watched D1 as six players, including one of the ICs, lynched an incredibly obvious (at least to me) townie.

Is this in your IC voice or your normal voice? If it's IC then I'm obligated to trust that you're telling the truth, but claiming that someone was obviously town after they've flipped is mostly empty air.

Quote from: Jack

By this point, the idea that roo should be lynched even if town was getting pretty strong, but at least those voting him leaned towards him being scum.  Not so with Nerjin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6065370#msg6065370), who takes no position on roo's townhood or scumhood (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6065369#msg6065369), and just votes for him because he's damaging town.  Not a good vote at all.  Uncaring about the alignment of the lynched, and absolutely positionless.  Troubling.

That's a pretty bad sign if even the IC is throwing his vote onto someone without any reason aside from 'hurting town.' Now, admittedly at the point where he voted for Roo it was fairly likely he was going to be lynched, but it seems quite bandwagony. Nerjin's an IC so I can't really see why he'd vote for someone so lazily. (Newbies can be excused though perhaps only once, because they don't really know any better.)
Cryxis' and ggamer's votes are pretty abysmal, but as they're new I'll gloss over it. Do note you two that I won't be forgiving if you do something similar again; once can be put down to ignorance, twice is too often to be unintentional.

Quote from: Jack

Everyone: I would love to see your thoughts on D1 and the roowagon votes.

I can barely even get started on D1 it's so messy... My eyes just sort of glaze over. If you think it's necessary I can look at it more closely, but my main guess is that most of the info I'll glean will be 'everyone is new and has no clue what they're doing.'

My thoughts on the Roo votes, summarized, are this:

Peradon: As you said, reasonable, I can't see anything wrong with it.
Hector: Like Peradon's, reasonable.
Gamer: Reasons are starting to slip at this point on the wagon. I'd like him to point out where Roo was getting overdefensive.
OScienceG: I dislike the 'convince us you're of benefit to the Town'  reasoning because even useless players, if town, still stop scum from winning just by their existence. However, at this point he's flipped so it's mostly pointless to look into it further.
Nerjin and Cryxis: Mentioned above. I'm highly suspicious of Nerjin at this point (especially considering his inactivity) and he's probably my strongest 'instant' scum read, but I'll have to do more reading to really know for sure.
PPE: Reading more, it seems he's swamped with stuff IRL. I still dislike that he chose to vote for Roo regardless, but I guess that's somewhat of an explanation...?
Regardless, he said he should have more time tomorrow... I hope he doesn't fail to deliver.
Cryxis' vote is pretty incredibly bad but as a newbie I guess it gets a pass.

---

Quote from: Gamer

it'd be a pretty dumb play for scum to be that disruptive

Some people try to take refuge in audacity (it never works.) I disagree with Jack saying that lynching Roo was terrible (though I'll admit the only players I've seen act quite so ridiculous have been town), it was (in my opinion) the correct choice at the time. Mislynching is never a good thing, though, so it's bad but only in hindsight. (Lynching people just because you think they're hurting the town even if you don't think they're actually scum is also a bad thing.)

Quote from: Cryxis

vote Hector because he seems to be constantly accusing me of being scum and he is tipping my suspicion.

I'll let the OMGUS slip for now since you're new, but if you're going to continue voting for Hector I want to see some better reasons than 'he's suspecting me.'

Quote from: Jack

Bit of advice: Asking a lot of questions is a good thing.  We want lots of questions.

Well... Sensible questions. RVS is over so the questions should probably be game-related, about things that caught your attention and so on.

Quote from: Peradon

I didnt think about the lynch in those terms, but I guess you have a point. Right now, the most scummy would be ggamer and Nerjin. ggamer because he didnt give a good reason for voting

Why ggamer and not Cryxis? Cryxis' vote had an even worse reason. I hope you haven't discounted him as scum purely due to your trick question, since I simply cannot imagine anyone ever falling for that anyway.

Quote from: Peradon

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

Active players do tend to be town more often, but if he's townreading you based on that... It's not a very good idea.

More importantly however, you say that he's buddying you, but where? If you're going to vote for someone, offer some evidence. It adds a lot more weight. Interpretations of buddying is also something purely subjective, so I wouldn't build a case entirely on that, though that's your prerogative.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:59:55 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

Why do people keep doing that? Words in my mouth and everything.

I don't like it when people are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say you could be trusted because you were active, I said I was trusting you, for the time being, because you were the only other active player at that point. Scum don't have any reason to keep the game moving by posting, so I was quite happy to read you as town while I was waiting for everyone else to get involved.

How is that putting words in your mouth? I dont like the fact that you were not trying to scumhunt me at all, mainly because I was active. The fact that I am active, and was present to answer questions should have spurred you to scumhunt me. Instead, you resign to ask questions to the lurkers, who dont answer questions very much.

Because you said I said you could pretty much be trusted, which I categorically did not.

I said at that moment in time that because you were being active and trying to get other people involved that I felt (as in, my gut-read was) you were town, but you then seemed to think that that was a solid read that wasn't going to change.

What about our interaction suggests to you that I wasn't trying to scumhunt you? If you read the responses from 178-190, I at first responded to your questions from 177, and then I was the one asking you questions about what you thought about the game and why you gave the responses you did. You answered and didn't ask me anything in return, so if anyone wasn't scumhunting, it was you, sunshine.

You start thinking I was buddying you in 190, which confused me at the time - not a nice thing to happen when your brain is in La-La Land - which is part of the reason why I gave a slightly bizarre response, and then didn't answer your question at first because I wanted to know why you thought I was buddying you. You then pointed out what response you felt was buddying (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077467#msg6077467) (as in, one out of all the responses between 178 and 186) and say I'm dodging the question! Am I not allowed to ask you to clarify your position?

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:59:55 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

I don't think suspected buddying is enough to vote for someone to be lynched, and you're also voting for me despite saying two other players are scummier than me, so if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're quite as towny anymore, Peradon

First off, where did I say that there were other people more scummy than you? I'm fairly certain I didnt. I think I know who you are talking about, mainly Nerjin and ggamer. But I find buddying to be a much bigger scumtell than Lurking.

Plus, that was an OMGUS if I ever saw one.

And I call bullshit on that.

I'm calling you out on your reason for voting, I don't think buddying is a big scumtell, because being friendly isn't exclusive to scum.

You said in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078246#msg6078246) that you think the most scummy (as in, more scummy than everyone else) players were Nerjin and ggamer, so don't talk shite about not saying anyone was scummier than me.

You said I wasn't scumhunting you when I was, you just freaked out over potential buddying, and then said it felt like what I was doing in the previous BM game. I don't really know what I should feel on that, because you're using something I did (poorly) in another game to say I'm scum in this one... which strikes me, personally, as quite stupid.

You then accuse me of giving you an OMGUS (oh my god you suck, for the new players. bad thing to do, generally a scum-tell) for calling you out on your reasons for voting me.

So, in all, fuck you Peradon. You look like you're trying to invent a case from the tiniest things, and making up nonsense to back it up. Town have no reason to do this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 03:12:41 pm

Ya I think this will be the only game of mafia I ever play

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

Quote from: Peradon

I didnt think about the lynch in those terms, but I guess you have a point. Right now, the most scummy would be ggamer and Nerjin. ggamer because he didnt give a good reason for voting

Why ggamer and not Cryxis? Cryxis' vote had an even worse reason. I hope you haven't discounted him as scum purely due to your trick question, since I simply cannot imagine anyone ever falling for that anyway.

The reason I chose ggamer over Cryxis is because ggamer seems to be able to express his thoughts a little better than Cryxis, and Cryxis' vote reeked with noobiness, wheras ggamer didnt reek as much.

Quote from: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

Quote from: Peradon

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

More importantly however, you say that he's buddying you, but where? If you're going to vote for someone, offer some evidence. It adds a lot more weight. Interpretations of buddying is also something purely subjective, so I wouldn't build a case entirely on that, though that's your prerogative.

Yeah, I quoted it a couple pages back:

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:08:50 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:16:35 pm

So... should we be looking at less-active players as most viable scum-spects?

It was this post that struck me as slight buddying. It looks like you either assumed that I'm town, or that you know I'm town. I may be overreacting, but it struck me as odd that you would say it that way.

Also, you just dodged my question again. What did your response have to do with buddying?

Through my scumhunting of him, I found out that he was not scumhunting me based on the fact that I was active, which, like I said earlier, I find suspect. I would think that town dont know who to trust, and should thus keep open their net to everyone at all times. Scum, on the other hand, know exactly who is town, and thus can judge other people.

PPE:

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:59:55 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

Why do people keep doing that? Words in my mouth and everything.

I don't like it when people are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say you could be trusted because you were active, I said I was trusting you, for the time being, because you were the only other active player at that point. Scum don't have any reason to keep the game moving by posting, so I was quite happy to read you as town while I was waiting for everyone else to get involved.

How is that putting words in your mouth? I dont like the fact that you were not trying to scumhunt me at all, mainly because I was active. The fact that I am active, and was present to answer questions should have spurred you to scumhunt me. Instead, you resign to ask questions to the lurkers, who dont answer questions very much.

Because you said I said you could pretty much be trusted, which I categorically did not.

I said at that moment in time that because you were being active and trying to get other people involved that I felt (as in, my gut-read was) you were town, but you then seemed to think that that was a solid read that wasn't going to change.

I never said that I thought it was a solid read, I said that you werent open to the idea that I may be scum at the time, due to the fact that I was active. This is my point: Town should be open to the idea that anyone else can be scum. You admitted that I was a town read(at that moment...) because I was active. That is what I find scummy and furthers the idea of you buddying.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

What about our interaction suggests to you that I wasn't trying to scumhunt you? If you read the responses from 178-190, I at first responded to your questions from 177, and then I was the one asking you questions about what you thought about the game and why you gave the responses you did. You answered and didn't ask me anything in return, so if anyone wasn't scumhunting, it was you, sunshine.

You are right, you were slightly scumhunting me. But my point was that you were giving me a "temporary"(In quotes because that makes no sense) town read based on activity. Scum can be active too.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

You start thinking I was buddying you in 190, which confused me at the time - not a nice thing to happen when your brain is in La-La Land - which is part of the reason why I gave a slightly bizarre response, and then didn't answer your question at first because I wanted to know why you thought I was buddying you. You then pointed out what response you felt was buddying (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077467#msg6077467) (as in, one out of all the responses between 178 and 186) and say I'm dodging the question! Am I not allowed to ask you to clarify your position?

Quote from: hector13

Well I should actually ask you why my questions seemed like buddying to you, actually. That's more sensible.

You could have very well answered the question without clarification on my motives. It looks like an attempt to not answer the question.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:59:55 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

I don't think suspected buddying is enough to vote for someone to be lynched, and you're also voting for me despite saying two other players are scummier than me, so if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're quite as towny anymore, Peradon

First off, where did I say that there were other people more scummy than you? I'm fairly certain I didnt. I think I know who you are talking about, mainly Nerjin and ggamer. But I find buddying to be a much bigger scumtell than Lurking.

Plus, that was an OMGUS if I ever saw one.

And I call bullshit on that.

I'm calling you out on your reason for voting, I don't think buddying is a big scumtell, because being friendly isn't exclusive to scum.

You said in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078246#msg6078246) that you think the most scummy (as in, more scummy than everyone else) players were Nerjin and ggamer, so don't talk shite about not saying anyone was scummier than me.

If you actually read the context of that post, and the question I was answering, you would find that it was in relation to D1, not an overall scum-read list.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

You said I wasn't scumhunting you when I was, you just freaked out over potential buddying, and then said it felt like what I was doing in the previous BM game. I don't really know what I should feel on that, because you're using something I did (poorly) in another game to say I'm scum in this one... which strikes me, personally, as quite stupid.

I'm not using it as proof. You asked why I thought it was buddying, and I answered. You were buddying me in the other game, and I see similarities between that, and now.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

You then accuse me of giving you an OMGUS (oh my god you suck, for the new players. bad thing to do, generally a scum-tell) for calling you out on your reasons for voting me.

You say it was for calling me out on my reasons for voting. How did you call me out on anything? You state what you think is a larger scumtell, and that its not buddying. That is all. Its your opinion. Then you say this:

Quote

so if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're quite as towny anymore, Peradon

That is an OMGUS. You are responding directly to my vote with an FoS.

Quote from: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

So, in all, fuck you Peradon. You look like you're trying to invent a case from the tiniest things, and making up nonsense to back it up. Town have no reason to do this.

I am not inventing a case. I saw buddying, and acted on it with a vote. Now you come out with an OMGUS, and that rang quite a few alarms. So, no, I'm not inventing a case.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 03:12:41 pm

Ya I think this will be the only game of mafia I ever play

That is a shame. It is a really fun game when you get into it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 05:05:29 pm

It may be too stressful for Cryxis... Or time constraints get in the way.

Whyyyy do people react so hard to small things?

'He voted me, therefore he's scum!'
'He said he wasn't scum, therefore he's not scum!'

Blaaaaargh.

I'll post more when I get home.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 05:48:24 pm

Fuckin' walls of text Perry. Thank you.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

I'm not using it as proof. You asked why I thought it was buddying, and I answered. You were buddying me in the other game, and I see similarities between that, and now.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

I don't see how you're not using the other game as proof. You say it feels like the other game, so you're using the other game as a foundation for your thoughts on this game, instead of thinking about this game on its own merits. My buddying attempt in the other game, as scum, was a failure because everyone jumped on it. Why would I, if I were scum, try it again, to the same player, in pretty much the very next game? Do you really think I'm that stupid? :P

Those were the only reasons you gave in your vote text for me: buddying and an erroneous assumption that I refused to consider you as scum. Every read I make (and probably everyone makes) is temporary, because it's subject to change from new information. It would be stupid for me to think my initial read on someone was ironclad.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

That is an OMGUS. You are responding directly to my vote with an FoS

I FoS'd you because I wanted you to know how seriously I don't think buddying is scummy (and you're basing it off my play in the other game, where it didn't work...) and that you made an erroneous assumption that I wasn't going to consider you as scum. How can you possibly know what I'm thinking?

You asked me two questions (reply 196, 198) about my read on you, and apparently that's enough for you to divine the entire nature of my thoughts on you and your role, and label me scum. I asked you five questions (replies 178,180,182,184,186) - which I will admit deteriorated in the quality of answers they would get as they went on because of fatigue and lack of imagination - but that's not enough for me to get a tentative read on you? Double Standards, perhaps?

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

I never said that I thought it was a solid read, I said that you werent open to the idea that I may be scum at the time, due to the fact that I was active. This is my point: Town should be open to the idea that anyone else can be scum. You admitted that I was a town read(at that moment...) because I was active. That is what I find scummy and furthers the idea of you buddying

Can you tell me the difference between what you think is a solid read and not considering the possibility that the read may be wrong?

In what way was I not considering you as scum by saying "for the moment I think you're town"? How would it be different from putting you at or near the top of a reads list? Is that buddying too? You were the only person I could get a read on at that point because you were the only one actually posting. Is it wrong (or buddying) for me to think that you might be town because of that?

I agree that people should consider that everyone could be scum, but not that everyone actually is scum, because then you start getting paranoid over everything. You need to consider that people could be town as well.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

You could have very well answered the question without clarification on my motives. It looks like an attempt to not answer the question.

I could've answered your question, but you likely wouldn't have understood the response because your question didn't make sense to me. I didn't know what I was doing that had to do with buddying, so I couldn't respond until I knew why you thought I was buddying. Do you expect people to be able to properly answer a question they don't understand?

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

If you actually read the context of that post, and the question I was answering, you would find that it was in relation to D1, not an overall scum-read list.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

I didnt think about the lynch in those terms, but I guess you have a point. Right now, the most scummy would be ggamer and Nerjin. ggamer because he didnt give a good reason for voting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062289#msg6062289), basically saying he's suspicous. I mentioned this earlier, very briefly. Nerjin, basically for what you said.

Would you care to explain why you said, at that moment, why you thought two people were scummier than me and then voted me shortly thereafter?

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 04:09:40 pm

I am not inventing a case. I saw buddying, and acted on it with a vote. Now you come out with an OMGUS, and that rang quite a few alarms. So, no, I'm not inventing a case.

I think you're inventing a case on me because the basis of your vote stems from my behaviour in another game, not this one. You made an erroneous assumption about the solidity of my read on you. You claim my FoS was an OMGUS, when you assume I'm only doing it because you voted for me, instead of encouraging you to consider why you're voting for me.

Why do you think buddying is a scum-tell? Or is it just me because I did it in the other game?

Do you understand what I mean about you making assumptions about my read on you, and why I think you have double standards over your read on me? Does that change anything for you? If not, why?

I ask too many rhetorical questions *sigh* The two questions above this one I would like answers to, and the green highlighted ones. Don't skip over everything else though, it does have a lot to do with why I'm voting for you just now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: ggamer on March 04, 2015, 06:07:54 pm

i'll post later tonight, i've got a pre-cal midterm to work on

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Nerjin on March 04, 2015, 06:18:04 pm

Well looks like my job has been taken over by other players. Excellent as life seems to hate me being in a position to teach. Anyways I promised reads and here’s what I have. Obviously I won’t be including the dead.

---

Before I get into anything more concrete:

Peradon – Hits Roo with a vote first because Roo chose to play like an insane puppy on meth. His reasoning Day 1 was pretty spot on so I can’t fault him for that.
Hector – Voted Roo about 9 hours later with the, correct, assumption that he couldn’t defend himself from Roo’s accusations because Roo didn’t say what it was about Hector that tipped off his scumdar.
GGgamer – Voted Roo next. Stated that he was suspicios but didn’t mention why at first. He later elaborates that he did so because he views Roo as either scum or a town who is just throwing up a smokescreen for scum.
Nerjin – This handsome devil voted Roo because, in its entirety, Roo simply was harmful to town. Apparently some people view that as a negative thing but I view it as eliminating another day’s worth of us all arguing with Roo while he does nothng useful.

Cyrixis voted Roo but only stated that he didn’t really have anything to say and was watching for ‘suspicious peeps’ which is… Probably something I should have talked to him about but puts up a pretty big flag in general. Interestingly his vote came in at the last minute…

Melanthius never did or said anything of note. Which is, itself, noteworthy I suppose.

So based on JUST Day 1 stuff I would say my list looks something like this [removing Roo and Origami as they died]

Quote from: Read

Town
Nerjin [I cheated and looked at his Role PM. He’s town.]
Hector [For good reasoning and overall excellent activity]
Peradon [Same as above. Probably tied]
GGgamer  [Reasoning was good. Activity less so.]
Deathsword [I honestly forgot he existed as this is a Pre-post edit. He said a few basic things but didn’t really interact with the game much.]
Melanthius [Activity was atrocious. Stated nothing useful]
Cyrix [Voted Roo at the last minute, possibly as an attempt to say “But I voted with everyone else” when people called him on his lack of activity on Day 2, and he also stated he wanted to play VERY passively.]
Scum

---

As for Day 2 there were some replacements. Namely Melanthius and Deathsword were replaced by UXLZ and Jack AT respectively.

Now let’s stop the wrap-up and start the… Un…wrap up? I dunno. I’m starting now regardless.

First off, any questions to me will be answered here. Even if I already answered them in my previous post these will, hopefully, be a bit more useful.

Spoiler: Questions to Nerjin (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 01:23:51 pm

Nerjin:Why have you been so lurky?

I wake up at roughly 7:30 every day. Go to College from 9-3ish. I have 4 forum games currently running [which are also suffering from this by the way], it is midterm week, and this past week I have either had work or no access to a computer. It’s unfortunate but I’m starting to think there is a deity. And that deity hates the idea of me playing Mafia because any time I try to get into the game EVERYTHING gets busy.

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:15:03 pm

Nerjin: Come on, post! Say something! Who do you suspect the most? Why?

At the time of this writing it is currently Cyrix due to what I stated above. Unfortunately I haven’t read all of day 2 as I write this so that will likely change as I read more about your and Hector’s current interactions.

Quote from: Jack AT

Nerjin, that was quite the vote D1.  You jumped on a big bandwagon without even having an explicit position on roo's alignment.  Was that really the best you could do?

Again: Probably not. I still stand by that it was a good vote at the time. He was acting incredibly suspicious and Very anti-town. Obviously he was town but that doesn’t mean that he was  a pro-town player.

Spoiler: Hector (click to show/hide)

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 12:01:04 pm

Deathsword you were the only one not voting for roo, why was that?

Not voting someone isn’t indicative of much on Day 1 I’m afraid. Especially considering what we’ve since learned about our exIC.

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:05:37 pm

Why do you think Origami was targeted?

This line of questioning will only lead to WIFoM which doesn't really help anyone and only sets up false solutions. Most people do this in rookie games though. You learn to not to look too deep into "What if"s.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 06:52:04 pm

Hector: I just read over the past page or so. Your interaction with me seems a bit like buddying. I have my eye on you...

As Hector pointed out: He was the only person talking to you. I fail to see how that is buddying in the slightest. It’s being active. He only has you to talk to so he talks.

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 07:08:50 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 06:16:35 pm

So... should we be looking at less-active players as most viable scum-spects?

It was this post that struck me as slight buddying. It looks like you either assumed that I'm town, or that you know I'm town. I may be overreacting, but it struck me as odd that you would say it that way.

Also, you just dodged my question again. What did your response have to do with buddying?

For context: You had just said that scum might have killed OSG because he was active. This implies that less active players might be the scum. It had nothing to do with you in any aspect. Here’s a question for you: What exactly has he done that seems like buddying?

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

You're being awfully antagonistic over something you can't prove. How is he buddying you? Between the two posts I’ve quoted he hasn’t said much, if anything, to you.

Spoiler: Jack (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 09:33:14 pm

I don't get strong reads normally, and I was getting a very strong town read on roo.  He was disruptive, arrogant, and pretty incomprehensible, yes, but his actions made pretty much no sense for scum.  He was quite obviously used to playing elsewhere (clear signs of experience (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061041#msg6061041), plus significantly different playstyle from the local one), and was quite clearly trying to push everyone out of RVS as soon as possible.  It was a poor plan done quite poorly, but that's basically what he did.  And then he floundered under pressure.  Not answering questions didn't help at all, too.

So… What in all that made him seem Town?

Spoiler: Cyrix (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 10:16:47 pm

Quote from: hector13 on February 27, 2015, 04:33:34 pm

So you think roo is scum because everyone else thinks roo is scum?

I will not answer [this] question as he has no proof that I am targeting anyone nor will I justify such a question.

I vote Hector because he seems to be constantly accusing me of being scum and he is tipping my suspicion.

You are asking no questions and only jumped on the bandwagon at the last second. It really seem, to me, that you did so in order to say “No! I voted like everyone else! Look. See? So what if it killed a townie! Everyone else did it.” Which doesn’t work. Explain your Roo vote.

Oh, and OMGuS doesn’t make you seem town. Pro-tip.

Cyrix until he actually explains why he voted Roo.

Unfortunately that’s all I have time for right now… I’ll do more as I can.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 06:51:39 pm

Hector: I'm going to wait and see what other people say about the buddying thing before responding to your post. I may have overreacted a little, so I want to see if other people see the buddying...

Nerjin: It was reply 186. Plus, his "temporary" assumption that I'm town felt like buddying.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 06:55:13 pm

I'm stuck between thinking that's fine and you not being able to form your own opinions... hm.

I'm upset I can't condense my wall of text thoughts down to Nerjin's three bloody sentences though :'(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 07:01:49 pm

Quote from: Nerjin

Nerjin – This handsome devil voted Roo because, in its entirety, Roo simply was harmful to town. Apparently some people view that as a negative thing but I view it as eliminating another day’s worth of us all arguing with Roo while he does nothng useful.

Mmm... It's more that I don't think lynching someone if you think they're town is a good idea. Roo was easily acting scummily enough at the time that I would have agreed with the lynch had I been there, but I just think it's bad in hindsight where we know he's town. (That is, him being lynched was correct, him being town is unfortunate. If I knew for 100% certain he was town I wouldn't lynch him.)

Quote from: Nerjin

So… What in all that made him seem Town?

That's why I wanted to clarify if  he was saying that as an IC or not. If he was doing so as an IC we're obligated to trust him, but otherwise...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 07:04:46 pm

I VOTED ROO BECAUSE IT WAS RANDOM VOTING, EVERYONE ELSE VOTED ON THEM AND I VOTED LAST MINUTE BECAUSE OF TIME RESTRAINTS

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Nerjin on March 04, 2015, 07:38:15 pm

It was no longer random voting. everyone else had a reason. You voting them specifically because everyone else was voting them is NOT a good reason.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 07:46:41 pm

How was it not random voting? It was day one!
Someone even said earlier that it's still random voting

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 04, 2015, 08:23:07 pm

Fine, I'll use a separate IC voice (increasing the risk of people going after me for advice I fail to tag, but clarifying things a bit).
<<This is my IC voice.  Whatever I say in it is guaranteed to be honest advice.>>

---

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 03, 2015, 11:56:51 pm

I get hector and Peradon mixed up way too often.
Move vote from hector to Peradon

Cryxis: My questions mostly still apply: Is there something scummy about him accusing you of being scum?  How is he tipping your suspicion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078001#msg6078001) (#201)?  If I were to vote for you, would that make me scummy in your eyes?  <<Without further explanation, this is not a convincing case.  While you seem to be hinting at there being something more than just you not liking Peradon's decision to vote for you, that's the only clear point you've made, and it doesn't really say much about Peradon's alignment.  Try to figure out what about his actions got you to suspect him, and explain.>>

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 07:04:46 pm

I VOTED ROO BECAUSE IT WAS RANDOM VOTING, EVERYONE ELSE VOTED ON THEM AND I VOTED LAST MINUTE BECAUSE OF TIME RESTRAINTS

<<A couple points:
*Random voting stage (RVS) is generally considered over by the time people start making serious cases, and was certainly over by the time you voted.  Granted, people have been quite confused about the length of RVS throughout this game.
*"Everyone else voted on them" is not a good reason to vote for someone: if everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?  A bunch of people wanting to kill someone doesn't directly say all that much about that person's alignment.>>

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 07:46:41 pm

How was it not random voting? It was day one!
Someone even said earlier that it's still random voting

<<Theoretically, random voting is meant to last a real-time day or two at most, not a full game day.  Day 1 had gone well beyond RVS by the time you voted.>>

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 03:12:41 pm

Ya I think this will be the only game of mafia I ever play

<<Understandable.  Mafia's not everyone's thing, and it's pretty time-consuming and stressful.  If you feel overwhelmed, or are just not having fun, feel free to ask for a replacement if you think that would be for the best.>>

---

Working on a longer post, but I think this part needs posting quickly.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 08:57:52 pm

Well considering that I'm going to get voted out any ways I don't think I need a replacment.
I don't see why all the fuss on me voting Roo, I don't know what I'm doing, I wasn't here until the end of day one to read everything, didn't get anything conclusive so I just voted Roo like everyone else and because they were just tipping my suspicion, maybe it was because so many people were voting on them.

I am mostly voting Peradon not because of the accusation but because of the accusation with no backing to support why they think I am scum. Just an accusation of me targeting someone.

Ya this game just pisses me off and I don't see how people can play it, I'll finish this game but probably won't play another

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

Quote from: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

Is this in your IC voice or your normal voice? If it's IC then I'm obligated to trust that you're telling the truth, but claiming that someone was obviously town after they've flipped is mostly empty air.

UXLZ: I'm not a huge fan of IC voices myself, so my first post was IC voiceless.  Since people are confused, I've started using an IC voice: <<this>>.

As for the specific statement, consider it to be in my "I've been watching this game since it started and argh" voice.  The read came from before roo flipped, back when I was not playing.  This should be tempered, from your perspective, by the fact that the first statement I could make came after roo's flip, though.

Quote from: Nerjin on March 04, 2015, 06:18:04 pm

Again: Probably not. I still stand by that it was a good vote at the time. He was acting incredibly suspicious and Very anti-town. Obviously he was town but that doesn’t mean that he was  a pro-town player.

Nerjin: Taking a position on roo's appearance now, I see.  Why are you only now saying roo was acting suspiciously?

As for what made roo look town to me...

Spoiler: roo's towniness (click to show/hide)

It's not that hard: roo's behaviour, with his background taken into account, makes no sense from a scum perspective and some from a town perspective.

Let's start with the easy part: roo has experience elsewhere.

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:26:51 pm

off topic: Lynching is good especially in a game this size 7-2. No lynching d1 would mean we lose a mislynch. We would lose upon the second mislynch so technically we would only have a single ml. Most importantly tho lynching kills scum. A wagon to analyze is good d2 if there is no wagon it is like we are starting at the beginning all over. Not mention that whatever actions we have we would do them blindly. And you are handing over a townie to the mafia for free. Town controls lynches as their are more townie so generally speaking lynches are a good thing. NLing is the correct option for certain situations, but not this one.

Absolute newbies don't write like this.  There's plenty of jargon, the analysis is solid, and the first sentence indicates experience with games of other sizes.  He's from another site.  One, based on his posts, quite different from ours: dislike of random questions (like in our RVS), heavy emphasis on wagon analysis, a playstyle far more interested in votes than questions, and, most likely, a more 'pure' RVS start.  (MafiaScum, perhaps?  I know they like random bandwagons to start some games.)

And with that in mind, everything starts to make sense.  roo's stuff about the end of RVS and all, along with his hatred of RVS, shows his motive for much of his behaviour: get the players out of RVS as soon as possible and into something productive.  His method, the hector13 push/reaction test (a game-starting method I'm aware is used outside B12 at times) (and it's pretty recognizable as a reaction test.  I mean, just look at it.) failed due to culture clash: Bay 12 values solid, detailed reasoning too much for such a test to work.

He summarized the whole mess well:

Quote from: roo on February 25, 2015, 03:15:08 pm

I did vote Hector because I was leaning scum on him and insisted he be voted mostly to get reactions as I have stated before. If someone did vote Hector I would certainly raise an eyebrow. It has already been pointed out several time that there was no case. And the vote was mostly a gut vote. I had nothing to go on and the rqs was doing nothing for me. So I used my gut read to get us out of rqs. I saw an opportunity to clear myself and took it no sense im being coy about it. why would I as scum do any of this? better yet why would a scum do any of the things I did?

And that's the key issue: why would scum not only go out of their way to push the game out of RVS, but do so in a way that attracts a ton of votes?  Why would they keep going so strongly against the local style when under heavy fire for doing so?  Remember, that one burst of activity got roo 4 votes, and that didn't persuade him to stop.

Actively behaving in a way that attracts a ton of votes while trying to get the game moving on D1 in this setup: not scum behaviour at all, but it makes sense as bad town behaviour with his personality (arrogant) and background (very non-B12).

As a side note, looking back through his posts, he's mostly comprehensible.  Very different playstyle, but with that taken into account, he can be mostly understood.  If the ICs had been more active and realized what was going on, and had roo been more willing to try the local playstyle, things probably would have gone much, much better.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

Hector13: I dont like the way you were trying to buddy up to me. It felt a lot like the last BM we played. You pretty much said that I coulde be trusted because I'm active. This seems like a stupid excuse to me, thus the vote.

Peradon: Can you give examples of how this is like hector's previous behaviour?  <<When using meta evidence like this, giving examples is quite useful.  Also, looking at the messy post #215: please prune your quotes a bit.  Cut them down to the parts you're responding to.>>

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 06:51:39 pm

Hector: I'm going to wait and see what other people say about the buddying thing before responding to your post. I may have overreacted a little, so I want to see if other people see the buddying...

This is quite an attitude.  How dependent on the opinions of others about the validity of your case are you?  Finally, what distinguishes hector's thing about you and townhood from non-scummy giving of reads?

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

I don't dislike the idea of us looking at D1, I just don't think there's much value there. This is my opinion, and I'm glad it's not shared by at least one other person.
This is why I asked UXLZ, a fresh player to the game, what they thought because they would hopefully have seen something I overlooked. I would've asked you the same thing, had my brain not been scrambled from so much insomnia.

hector13: Accepted.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

However, counter-question: do you think it's wise to keep that disruptive influence in the game? Roo's opinion, based on what happened, would have been a devalued currency after that, so even if they hadn't been lynched, I'm not sure what they could've added to the game that anyone would take seriously.

The guy was disruptive and a loose cannon, yes.  I've dealt with far worse (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76609.0).  <<Read the linked game.  It's hilarious.>>  roo wasn't going after 'lurkers' an hour into the game or anything like that.  In fact, with his background taken into account, roo mostly was understandable.  He was arrogant and played in a way that doesn't work here at all, but there was a sign (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062292#msg6062292) that he realized he wasn't helping.  Some IC attention could quite possibly have done good (and that is, I think, one of the core purposes of BMs).  Instead, town got lynched.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 04:26:44 am

I thought it was them trying to back out of behaviour that a number of people were seeing as scummy.

And what made you conclude this was more likely than roo having told the truth?  Do you think scum would go after you without giving evidence and expect that to lead to a wagon on you?

Finally, please summarize your case against Peradon.  What are your key points?  I'm having trouble following.

---

Cryxis: You don't have all that many votes on you.  What makes you think you'll be voted out?
<<Regarding your Peradon vote, I'm just going to point back a bit earlier in the game:>>

Quote from: Deathsword on February 24, 2015, 06:13:58 pm

Cryxis: What is TheDarkStar advising you to do in RVS? {This is a trick question, which you will see a lot. Town use it to get scum to slip. Scum use it to frame town. It may appear as "are you scum?" or "are you nervous that I am voting you, scumbucket?" or just a plain vote with no comment or question. In all cases but the last, the only correct answer is saying you are not scum. In the last, just show that you are not concerned. Either way, you must answer, which is why I'd like you to answer even with this whole text here.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 02:12:03 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

Peradon: Can you give examples of how this is like hector's previous behaviour?  <<When using meta evidence like this, giving examples is quite useful.  Also, looking at the messy post #215: please prune your quotes a bit.  Cut them down to the parts you're responding to.>>

It starts here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147634.msg5984858#msg5984858) But I think ya'll arent understanding what I meant. I'm using that buddying, and looking for something that looks like it. I'm not using it as proof, but rather I'm judging against it, if that makes sense. It gives me a more tangable definition of buddying, nothing more. Thus, when I said that I saw buddying similer to the other BM, I was simply saying that it looked like buddying.

I get the sense that that didnt make sense...

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

This is quite an attitude.  How dependent on the opinions of others about the validity of your case are you?  Finally, what distinguishes hector's thing about you and townhood from non-scummy giving of reads?

There are 3 experianced players here. You, Nerjin and UXLZ. If all 3 of you say that there I'm seeing things, I know that at the very least, 1 town experianced player does not see it, most likely 2 town players.

To answer your second question: Hectors read was based off of activity (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077626#msg6077626), which is not a scum-tell, nor a town-tell. He then says that it was only temporary (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077642#msg6077642), which makes no sense. Thus, the "town-read" was full of hot air, thus the buddying.


I dont think I formally asked it, so I will:

Nerjin/UXLZ/Jack A T: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 02:25:22 am

Quote from: Jack

I'm not a huge fan of IC voices myself, so my first post was IC voiceless.  Since people are confused, I've started using an IC voice: <<this>>.

Thanks for that, it makes things clearer as to whether or not it's worth trusting what you say. Of course, I didn't particularly think you were lying about it to begin with, but as I said, claiming you read someone as town only after they've flipped is pretty easy to interpret as empty words encouraging people to read you positively. If you weren't an IC I'd be pushing you significantly harder on that kind of claim, though you seem to have provided evidence (or at least an explanation) anyway, which is nice. Then again, I may be too paranoid.

Quote from: Jack

This should be tempered, from your perspective, by the fact that the first statement I could make came after roo's flip, though.

Don't worry too much about giving me advice; anything is still welcome, but the others need your attention a lot more than I do. (My ability to play this game is more than adequate, it's just missing the tempering via experience.)

Quote from: Peradon

Nerjin/UXLZ/Jack A T: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

I can kiiind of see what you're saying, but it's quite hard to judge because buddying is inherently subjective; that is, Hector may really just be being polite (though the point about his fluctuating read is a fairly good one.)

If you see it as buddying, then keep a close eye on him until he's alleviated your suspicions. Our opinion is (in my opinion) fairly irrelevant, the important thing is what you think you're seeing and using that to drive who you look into the most.
I don't think making an argument purely off of perceived buddying is a good thing though.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 05, 2015, 08:20:11 am

Post #228

Because people are still saying I seem suspicious.

I guess it's annoying answering the same stupid question everytime.
I don't get why you would throw an accusation at someone if their only respons is to say they aren't suck no matter who they are, and that people have to answer it multiple times saying the same answer just seems redundant

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Nerjin on March 05, 2015, 11:55:09 am

Spoiler: Cyrix (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 04, 2015, 08:57:52 pm

I don't see why all the fuss on me voting Roo, I don't know what I'm doing, I wasn't here until the end of day one to read everything, didn't get anything conclusive so I just voted Roo like everyone else and because they were just tipping my suspicion, maybe it was because so many people were voting on them.

The fuss is that you didn't really have any reason to vote other than really vague ones. We're trying to see why you voted him which is very important in this game. I'm sorry to hear you're not having fun but the game isn't for everyone.

Oh god… Jack’s post…

Spoiler: Jack AT (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

Quote from: Nerjin on March 04, 2015, 06:18:04 pm

Again: Probably not. I still stand by that it was a good vote at the time. He was acting incredibly suspicious and Very anti-town. Obviously he was town but that doesn’t mean that he was  a pro-town player.

Nerjin: Taking a position on roo's appearance now, I see.  Why are you only now saying roo was acting suspiciously?

Because he was acting anti-town and I had just reread the thread so I was more inclined to call him suspicious. You get a different view of someone when you see a bunch of things all at once than when you see the same thing spread out over several days.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

As for what made roo look town to me... [...]

Let's start with the easy part: roo has experience elsewhere.

Quote from: roo on February 24, 2015, 10:26:51 pm

[…] Lynching is good especially in a game this size 7-2. No lynching d1 would mean we lose a mislynch. […] Most importantly tho lynching kills scum. […] Not mention that whatever actions we have we would do them blindly. And you are handing over a townie to the mafia for free. Town controls lynches as their are more townie so generally speaking lynches are a good thing. NLing is the correct option for certain situations, but not this one.

Absolute newbies don't write like this.  There's plenty of jargon, the analysis is solid, and the first sentence indicates experience with games of other sizes.  He's from another site. […]

Hm… Yes, in retrospect that makes sense. However he still floundered around and kicked up a real dust-storm at the time of his postings. Rushing to get out of RVS is fine. The way he did it was just too… sporadic I think is the word.

Granted you mention that it was an issue of culture clash. Fine and dandy. I’m not going to quote the whole thing but I will state that I think you’re right. If you take that into account maybe he wasn’t quite so anti-town as I had thought. Hm… Maybe I’m not cut out for IC-ing as you keep delicately pointing out. Hm… I stand by my reasoning at the time but concede that I messed up there.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 02:12:03 am

Nerjin: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

Here's what I saw: Hector said you seemed town enough for the time being. You flipped out and accused him of buddying you. Now you're just sorta rolling with it. I honestly do not see where you are coming from at all. He said one thing and you accuse him of buddying.

It was actually kinda sit-commy if that makes sense.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

And what made you conclude this was more likely than roo having told the truth?  Do you think scum would go after you without giving evidence and expect that to lead to a wagon on you?

Latter first: I think bad scum would try it, yes. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to lead to a wagon, but he attempted it, nonetheless, and I read that as a really scummy thing to do.

Naturally, I was reasonably convinced at the point he claimed "reaction test!" he was scum, so I thought it more likely that roo was trying to back out of a bad situation (3 votes on him at that point) by trying to explain it away as a reaction test.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 05, 2015, 12:15:27 am

Finally, please summarize your case against Peradon.  What are your key points?  I'm having trouble following.

Apologies, I get quite verbose when I try to explain things sometimes.

The reasons Peradon gave (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078246#msg6078246) when they voted for me felt very light for wanting to get someone lynched, especially when in the same post he names two other players he sees as scummier. He explained that away by saying it was in the context of the question, but... I'm not convinced of that.

I didn't understand how I was buddying by town-reading him, and I don't see buddying as a scum-tell either. He's quite clearly misinterpreting my town-read of him; he thinks I won't ever see him as scum because of it.

This made me feel like he was trying to invent a case on me, rather than build one, which is not something I expect out of a town mindset.

I can understand his point on me OMGUS'ing him, but that was a mistake on my part. I felt that putting a little extra pressure on him with an FoS and then a vote would encourage a clearer answer.

He seems to be refusing to consider my points without input from others, namely the three more experienced players in the game. Understandable, but foolish: any of you three could be scum. Indeed, given that you three consist of almost half the players in the game at this point, two of you might be scum. His deference to you as experienced players perhaps means he won't consider that any opinion you give could be coloured by your role in the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 05, 2015, 12:27:38 pm

It was vague because it was a random vote, it was vague reasoning because I barely had any besides everyone else voting them out so they must be scummy in some way.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Silthuri on March 05, 2015, 12:34:56 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Nerjin
Peradon: Cryxis, hector13,
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13: Jack A T, Peradon,
Jack A T:
Nerjin:

Not voting:

Day 2 will end Friday, March 6 at 10:30am EST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

Apologies, I get quite verbose when I try to explain things sometimes.

The reasons Peradon gave (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078246#msg6078246) when they voted for me felt very light for wanting to get someone lynched, especially when in the same post he names two other players he sees as scummier. He explained that away by saying it was in the context of the question, but... I'm not convinced of that.

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

I didn't understand how I was buddying by town-reading him, and I don't see buddying as a scum-tell either. He's quite clearly misinterpreting my town-read of him; he thinks I won't ever see him as scum because of it.

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me warry: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

He seems to be refusing to consider my points without input from others, namely the three more experienced players in the game. Understandable, but foolish: any of you three could be scum. Indeed, given that you three consist of almost half the players in the game at this point, two of you might be scum. His deference to you as experienced players perhaps means he won't consider that any opinion you give could be coloured by your role in the game.

I'm taking their role into concideration. If all three answer, I know that at least one will be telling the truth.

The reason that I wouldnt answer your questions was because I was getting pretty frustrated with you. I would say something, then you wouldnt understand, and I would say it again. It felt like we were talking past each other. So, I needed an outside opinion on things.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 01:04:35 pm

We were talking past each other. It's one of the joys of Mafia :P though I've done it once in each game I'm in just now, so I evidently need to change that. You didn't appear to be listening to me either. Given I'm trying to defend myself, that is also quite frustrating.

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

I'm not convinced because of the language you used. You said "right now" and said they were "most scummy". Even in the context of the question, that told me that's what you thought now, in D2, not in the past, in D1.

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me warry: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

I used the wrong language to explain it, then. My read on you from what you were doing (because how else am I s'posed to judge you? :P) was that you were town. I didn't feel I had enough information to categorically say you were town, so I tried to explain that, and didn't do it very well.

All reads are temporary, because they change based on the information available at the time. You had a town-lean at that time, then the reasons you gave for voting me (in my opinion) were weak, so that made me think you were scum.

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

I'm taking their role into concideration. If all three answer, I know that at least one will be telling the truth.

Do you know which one is town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 04:50:34 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 01:04:35 pm

I used the wrong language to explain it, then. My read on you from what you were doing (because how else am I s'posed to judge you? :P) was that you were town. I didn't feel I had enough information to categorically say you were town, so I tried to explain that, and didn't do it very well.

All reads are temporary, because they change based on the information available at the time. You had a town-lean at that time, then the reasons you gave for voting me (in my opinion) were weak, so that made me think you were scum.

Do you know which one is town?

Hm. Ok then, I'll Unvote.. For now. I still think it could have been buddying, but with that mess about temporary reads cleared up, I really dont have anything else on you.

I do not know which is town. I'm leaning toward UXLZ as scum, mainly as a hunch though.

UXLZ: What are your reads so far? Why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 05:36:02 pm

Quote from: Peradon

I do not know which is town. I'm leaning toward UXLZ as scum, mainly as a hunch though.

Usually when people do this sort of 'hunch read' fingerpointing, they at least include a small reason for it (tone, word choice, etc.), giving 'hunch' as your reason is not only empty air, it's almost literally useless. Please try to identify what's giving you that 'hunch' feeling, whether it's one of the things I mentioned above or something else. Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude you're just wildly clutching at straws (which isn't very effective hunting) or formulating 'reads' from empty air since you have difficulty creating them on your own (due to inexperience or being scum.)

As to my own reads, they're actually incredibly difficult to formulate because I have to take newbishness into account (otherwise the top two would easily be Gamer and Cryxis.) Despite that, my reads thus far are:

Peradon, Hector, and Nerjin are probably the three scummiest people (though at least one is a false positive), followed by Cryxis as a newbie-read and Gamer as null. Jack as the strongest town read. (However, this may be simply due to contrasting him with the newbie players.)

The reasons for Peradon, Hector and Nerjin are:

Peradon: Vague, unsubstantiated reasons for suspecting people (openly.) You can have those suspicions privately and use them to drive your investigations, but if you want to put them into the thread you need more than vague feelings (otherwise you just get called out on empty air, like now.)
Hector: Seeming OMGUS of Peradon, overtly emotional language in his voting post. (Slightly meta though not specific to Hector, in my previous game there was a scum player who'd get all sweary and angry every time he voted.)
Nerjin: Weak reason for voting Roo, lack of activity, strange actions for an IC. However, he does seem to have RL problems getting in the way.

Though do note that these three are just at the top on the continuum, I don't have enough information yet to form truly strong reads (hence why I haven't voted.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 06:03:50 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 05:36:02 pm

Quote from: Peradon

I do not know which is town. I'm leaning toward UXLZ as scum, mainly as a hunch though.

Usually when people do this sort of 'hunch read' fingerpointing, they at least include a small reason for it (tone, word choice, etc.), giving 'hunch' as your reason is not only empty air, it's almost literally useless. Please try to identify what's giving you that 'hunch' feeling, whether it's one of the things I mentioned above or something else. Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude you're just wildly clutching at straws (which isn't very effective hunting) or formulating 'reads' from empty air since you have difficulty creating them on your own (due to inexperience or being scum.)

I have a reason, but its going to be hard to say. I'll try...

UXLZ slightly encouraged me to continue to keep my eye on hector. She said that she could see how that post could be construed as buddying.

So here is what the experianced people have said about the buddying:

UXLZ: Can see it.
Nerjin: Can not see it.
Jack: Can not see it.

Lets assume that Hector is a scum trying to buddy. Either Jack lied about not seeing it, or Nerjin lied about not seeing it. The one who lied about is scum, and UXLZ is town.
If Hector is not scum, and was not buddying, then UXLZ is trying to get me to pursue a town, and is thus scum.
I'm tending to think right now that hector is not scum.
There are holes in this argument though, so thats why I didnt post it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 06:20:03 pm

He*
Geez, people still think I'm a girl even with a male avatar. :v

Quote from: Peradon

Lets assume that Hector is a scum trying to buddy. Either Jack lied about not seeing it, or Nerjin lied about not seeing it. The one who lied about is scum, and UXLZ is town.
If Hector is not scum, and was not buddying, then UXLZ is trying to get me to pursue a town, and is thus scum.
I'm tending to think right now that hector is not scum.
There are holes in this argument though, so thats why I didnt post it.

You may have misinterpreted what I was saying to you earlier; essentially what message I was trying to impart is this:

Don't let other players tell you who to scumread or investigate; walk your own path. Buddying isn't a very good argument to try and lynch someone on, but if you think you're being buddied it's a good reason to keep a closer eye on that player. I'm encouraging you to pursue people you see as scummy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 07:52:29 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 05:36:02 pm

Hector: Seeming OMGUS of Peradon, overtly emotional language in his voting post. (Slightly meta though not specific to Hector, in my previous game there was a scum player who'd get all sweary and angry every time he voted.)

Well I can't help being emotional, serious RL stuff, on top of previously mentioned RL stuff.

Looking back, it probably coloured my actions a bit (a lot) so unvote and apologies for language and harshness.

I would like to point out, UXLZ, that harsh language (like buddying) is not exclusive to scum. Are you using another person's meta to scumread me? 'Cause I don't think I could express how... silly that is.

I don't really have much else. Like UXLZ, I think ggamer and Cryxis are just new to mafia, and they haven't posted much for me to get a comfortable read on them.

Jack, though, might I inquire why you're voting for me? You had issues with what I was saying about D1, but didn't really comment in your reply to my answer to your questions.

ggamer, Cryxis we need more from you. What are your thoughts on the other players so far?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 08:57:10 pm

Quote from: Hector

I would like to point out, UXLZ, that harsh language (like buddying) is not exclusive to scum. Are you using another person's meta to scumread me? 'Cause I don't think I could express how... silly that is.

That wasn't the harsh language I was talking about, I was talking about overtly emotional stuff like swearing. Whether it's someone else's 'meta' or not, it's fairly logical that a scum player may attempt to add more weight to their votes by emotional language and harsh accusations rather than actual evidence.
The main scumread is from the (seeming) OMGUS (though that's something newer players seem to do fairly often anyway), the other stuff is just extra. As I said though, those reads aren't amazingly strong (hence why I'm not voting.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: ggamer on March 05, 2015, 09:08:15 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on March 03, 2015, 10:31:42 pm

ggamer: I meant, in this question, to ask about a bit more than your own vote.  This isn't RVS, even if some people are acting like it is.  We have material to analyze: a bunch of people's efforts to lynch roo, and some other discussion.  People voted at different times and with different reasons, and there is much to learn about the players from their actions D1 (and even from the actions so far D2).  Look through stuff, find something odd or questionable or interesting, and ask about it.

thank you for the advice, i'll take care of that later, i'm posting in time constraints right now.

Quote from: Peradon on March 04, 2015, 01:02:17 am

ggamer: What was you're reason for voting rue? Were you just joining the bandwagon?

Quote from: UXLZ on March 04, 2015, 02:47:28 pm

Gamer: Reasons are starting to slip at this point on the wagon. I'd like him to point out where Roo was getting overdefensive.

The main reasons I voted for roo were because I, as a newb, thought he was acting pretty scummy with all the schizophrenic behavior. Secondary reason is because everyone was focusing on him, and even if he wasn't scum he was distracting everyone from a thorough scumhunt.

Alright, a couple things that jumped out to me in D2 as sorta suspicious:

Quote from:  hector

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

So, Hector, you voted for roo because he was encouraging people to vote for you? I get that you might have been worried that he would start a bandwagon, but you should have enough experience to know that - at least the experienced players - would start looking for substantial evidence before they voted you.

Quote from:  cyrix

I VOTED ROO BECAUSE IT WAS RANDOM VOTING, EVERYONE ELSE VOTED ON THEM AND I VOTED LAST MINUTE BECAUSE OF TIME RESTRAINTS

damn bruh chill the fuck out, you had maybe two or three votes on you, and blowing up only made people more suspicious.

Quote from: cyrix

Well considering that I'm going to get voted out any ways I don't think I need a replacement

Cyrixis, why are you so convinced that people are going to lynch you after a couple votes on the first day of D2? If what I can tell from looking at a couple other games is true, then you should have plenty of time to answer questions and suspicions before the pack strikes. Are you worried that people may find you out?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 05, 2015, 09:51:57 pm

I'm not sure what I'm doing in this game or what I think of the others.


To the post above this one.
I've got time for the others because I don't have to read massive block texts. I do most of my posting at school and as long as I can read each post before going back to paying attention I'm good, I don't keep my place well when reading, and I can normally block texts my self because I can rember what I'm typing just not what I'm reading.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 10:14:21 pm

Quote from: ggamer on March 05, 2015, 09:08:15 pm

So, Hector, you voted for roo because he was encouraging people to vote for you? I get that you might have been worried that he would start a bandwagon, but you should have enough experience to know that - at least the experienced players - would start looking for substantial evidence before they voted you.

Of course. I voted him because he didn't have any evidence to back up his demand for everyone to vote with him. Would you not find that scummy too?

If other players had gone along with voting me after he made his demands, I'd probably be voting for them now, too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 10:17:57 pm

DP because I'm silly.

Quote from: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 08:57:10 pm

That wasn't the harsh language I was talking about, I was talking about overtly emotional stuff like swearing. Whether it's someone else's 'meta' or not, it's fairly logical that a scum player may attempt to add more weight to their votes by emotional language and harsh accusations rather than actual evidence.

Mmm... not that logical really. It's a playstyle thing, I would imagine. A town player could do the same thing to add weight to their words too.

It's not something I'd like to be part of my meta though. I was just upset about RL things, and happened to express it here. Though obviously I can't prove that...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 02:12:03 am

Nerjin/UXLZ/Jack A T: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

Peradon: Looking at that town read, the reasons, and when it was posted, I sort of see your point about the read.  It's essentially a mild town read for being on at the same time.  Comes off as fake a bit.

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 02:12:03 am

To answer your second question: Hectors read was based off of activity (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077626#msg6077626), which is not a scum-tell, nor a town-tell.

<<Eh.  It's a bit iffy in games like this with mass activity issues, but generally high activity is a mild town tell and low activity the opposite.  Scum generally doesn't want to risk revealing themselves more than they must risk.>>
... wait.

Quote from: Peradon on March 03, 2015, 05:32:19 pm

Hector: Most active person here. That is really the only thing going for you though, because we dont have much of anything on anybody. Town-Null read.

... So, just to be clear: you use activity as a mild town tell, yet view it as invalid as a town tell?  Do explain, Peradon.

As for the whole "ask the experienced players" thing, I understand wanting an outside opinion, but why so deferential to a group of people who could be, well, wrong?

Spoiler: hector13 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:06 pm

Because you're the only person posting, and you at least seem townie because of your activity and desire to see activity from everyone else.

hector13: This, around 9 hours into the day, as the reason for a mild town read, does not come off well.  It's essentially a mild town read for being on at the same time as you and before others.  Would you be so kind as to explain this?  Also, please clarify: what led you to decide to post this/what led you to post this read as a response to Peradon's question?

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

Naturally, I was reasonably convinced at the point he claimed "reaction test!" he was scum, so I thought it more likely that roo was trying to back out of a bad situation (3 votes on him at that point) by trying to explain it away as a reaction test.

So, confirmation bias.  Is this how you treat all defenses?

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 07:52:29 pm

Jack, though, might I inquire why you're voting for me? You had issues with what I was saying about D1, but didn't really comment in your reply to my answer to your questions.

At that point, mostly pressure with the continued roo questioning.  Now, more pressure.

Quote from: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:46 pm

I don't think buddying is a big scumtell, because being friendly isn't exclusive to scum.

<<Buddying is more active, targeted ingratiation than passive friendliness.>>

Quote from: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 05:36:02 pm

Hector: Seeming OMGUS of Peradon

UXLZ: "Seeming"?

Quote from: UXLZ on March 05, 2015, 05:36:02 pm

Nerjin: [...] strange actions for an IC.

Such as?

Quote from: Nerjin on March 05, 2015, 11:55:09 am

Hm… Maybe I’m not cut out for IC-ing as you keep delicately pointing out.

Nerjin: Not an intended message.

Quote from: Nerjin on March 05, 2015, 11:55:09 am

Now you're just sorta rolling with it.

Clarify/expand, please.

Quote from: ggamer on March 05, 2015, 09:08:15 pm

Quote from:  hector

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

So, Hector, you voted for roo because he was encouraging people to vote for you?

ggamer: What do you think of the next two words after "vote for me": "sans evidence"?

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 05, 2015, 09:51:57 pm

I'm not sure what I'm doing in this game or what I think of the others.
[...]
I've got time for the others because I don't have to read massive block texts. I do most of my posting at school and as long as I can read each post before going back to paying attention I'm good, I don't keep my place well when reading, and I can normally block texts my self because I can rember what I'm typing just not what I'm reading.

Cryxis: <<Oh dear.  Mafia is, as you've noticed, a game of walls of text.  Do you think you can handle this with the time you have?>>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 06, 2015, 01:59:35 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

... So, just to be clear: you use activity as a mild town tell, yet view it as invalid as a town tell?  Do explain, Peradon.

As for the whole "ask the experienced players" thing, I understand wanting an outside opinion, but why so deferential to a group of people who could be, well, wrong?

Actually, thats a good point. I forgot I said that. I cant really explain, because I guess I was having a double standard there. I guess I was interpreting hector's town read on me with the preconcieved idea that he was trying to buddy me.

There is more of a chance of me being wrong, than you guys being wrong. This is my third game, the second of which I was lynched day one as town. My idea's of buddying may be different than an experianced players idea's. Thus I had to ask.


I'm going to vote for Nerjin. He didnt really give a good explanation for his vote on roo, which comeing from an IC, I see as suspicous.

Also, I might not get a chance to post again before the end of the day, so I wanted to cast my vote now. Also, do note that we are all voting for different people, and unless we have a majority by the end of the day, we get a No-Lynch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 02:05:33 am

Quick post: Right, we are nearing the end of the day.  Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 06, 2015, 02:11:51 am

Quote from: Jack

UXLZ: "Seeming"?

'Seeming' implying that it appears that way to me, but I may have missed something (for instance suspicions from Hector on Peradon since D1 or someting.) An OMGUS is quite a hard accusation against somebody... At least directed towards non-newbies. If you'd done the same thing as Hector it's likely you would have rocketed right to the top as scummiest on my suspect list.

Quote from: Jack

Such as?

Lack of activity is the foremost. Generally one would sign up for ICship expecting to be around for the game. Unfortunately, it seems in Nerjin's case RL intervened, though I think his activity has been surprisingly low regardless (though that may be me misunderstanding the scope of how much it got in the way.)
By my last count he had the lowest number of posts in the entire game, though he may have overtaken Gamer at this point.
His vote on Roo despite seemingly reading him as town is something I believe is scummy under all circumstances, though this may be our conflicting philosophy.

Quote from: Jack

<<Buddying is more active, targeted ingratiation than passive friendliness.>>[/img]

As an example of (highly successful) buddying, here's a PM (so it was private) I sent to someone (sorry NQT) during my previous game. How many of you think you would have picked up on it as buddying without knowing beforehand that I was scum? (Though do note you're all missing a fair amount of context. The Medium is a role with access to the deadchat while alive, by the way.)

Spoiler: Example (click to show/hide)

Quote from: UXLZ on January 30, 2015, 05:43:25 am

Blehhh, this day is looking chaotic already and I don't think I have the ability in me to work solo any more. I need someone to trust, and I've decided on you. This may end up being a catastrophic mistake, but from last night's occurrences I believe I can fairly assume that there are no more third party roles of particular danger (unless one of them is Pisskop.) I can conclude that you are not a Xenozoologist, Harvester, Mind Stealer (this one wouldn't be too bad) etc due to the lack of abductions. I find Exterminator unlikely, and while the risk of you being a Dopp is still there... Well, it may be me not understanding the nuances of this particular class, but it seems like killing me would be the wrong idea regardless and this reveal to you would be a pointless waste of time rather than a recipe for failure. Anyway, with my reasons for deciding to trust you out of the way, and my potential embarrassment for if I am wrong sealed, let's get on with this.

I am the Medium. Any comments of mine in these spoilers will be in purple. Otherwise, assume that it is the deceased person talking.

Anyway, here's a few posts from the deadchat that seem somewhat useful. The big post from Flabort we can discuss if you want to, I haven't really put in any comments on it.
If you have any questions to ask the deadchat I can relay them.

... (Snipped stuff from the dead chat for the sake of using this as an example in BM LIII) ...

You seem to have claimed to have the evidence necessary to blow the case out of the water so my contribution may not be necessary. Regardless, please ask if you need any help.

Note: If you deem it necessary go ahead and quote this PM in the main thread, but I'd prefer it if you didn't do so unless it was urgent.

PPE: Oh, these games have extensions? Extenderino.
I don't think there was a single day during Paranormal that wasn't extended to the max...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 06, 2015, 03:05:16 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

This, around 9 hours into the day, as the reason for a mild town read, does not come off well.  It's essentially a mild town read for being on at the same time as you and before others.  Would you be so kind as to explain this?  Also, please clarify: what led you to decide to post this/what led you to post this read as a response to Peradon's question

The post in question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077609#msg6077609), seeing as you failed to produce that...

What lead me to post that was exhaustion, mostly. It wasn't answering his question ("what does that have to do with buddying") because I didn't understand the question. I think I was trying to explain my read in relation to the paragraph before his question. Evidently my sleep deprived brain chose to assume what he was asking and answer that question instead.

And so what if my mild town read doesn't come off well? Peradon was actively trying to get people to talk after a D1 in which the only information we had was from a wagon in which everyone was on, and a ridiculous conversation. Why would scum want to get players talking in that situation? A quiet town is a dead town. This was learned in the last BM game Peradon and I played in, during which there were 2 pages of content generated on D2, most of which was an argument between two townies. A clean sweep by the scum was had.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

So, confirmation bias.  Is this how you treat all defenses?

Should I not expect more of him? He indulged in some extremely scummy behaviour by encouraging other people to follow his lead in voting me without a reason. Three people proceeded to vote for him, and then he backs out of it with his claim of reaction test. I think that's known as a refuge in audacity? (genuine question)

He unvotes me and then doesn't really do anything else. He voted Peradon for a spurious reason (apparently saying he wasn't vanilla) so it had looked as though he was trying to invent another case, but then goes quiet, like he'd resigned himself to being lynched. Not a big deal, given the entire town was on his wagon, but I can't change my read if he doesn't do something for me change it.

Jack(Jake?:P), is there any particular reason you decided to choose to pressure me? Everyone else was on the wagon, and you did say you thought my vote was reasonable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077941#msg6077941). (in the spoilered section)

UXLZ, you've had time to go over the game, but you're being very reactive, answering questions but not asking anything. You don't seem to be doing much, if any, scumhunting. Why is that?

I shall also extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 06, 2015, 08:06:21 am

Post #248
Ya I can handle this, I'll just be posting as I normally have been. Either in the morning or at night or if I somehow find time during the day.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Silthuri on March 06, 2015, 04:23:38 pm

The Day has been extended! Day 2 will end Monday, March 9, 2015 at 4pm EST.

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom: Nerjin
Peradon: Cryxis
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13: Jack A T
Jack A T:
Nerjin: Peradon

Not voting: hector13, UXLZ, ggamer

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 06, 2015, 11:26:26 pm

Nerjin: With your RL stuff going on, can you handle this? You havent posted hardly anything, and you claim RL stuff. If you cant handle it, please replace out. If you can, please say so, and post more. My vote stays on you until you say something more substantial. I dont want this to be a lurk to victory.

Cryxis: If you can handle this, perhaps you could post your thoughts on people so far. Anything, really, just make it a little larger than two lines.


So, I'll post my reads so far:

Scummiest

Nerjin: Isnt posting. He said that he would be busy for about 3 days, but those days are past now, and he still isnt posting. Scum read.
ggamer: Here for the roo bandwagon and lurking. He looks like he can organise his thoughts, and hasnt claimed that he is having trouble with this. Scum-null read.
Hector: Buddying pretty much. I dont know if I was seeing things there or not, but I dont like it. He's hunting a little though. Scum-null.
Cryxis: Coming across as a noob. Newb read.
UXLZ: Fairly null. He's been posting quite a bit, but not really asking questions.
Jack A T: Been scumhunting the most out of us. Town-null read.

Towniest

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 07, 2015, 07:31:18 am

Blech, sorry, I've been in town all day (11 hours) and only just got back. I'll try and post something tomorrow.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 10:26:12 am

Ya I seriously don't know what to think of the other players, I don't know what I'm doing to analyze them.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 07, 2015, 02:08:35 pm

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 10:26:12 am

Ya I seriously don't know what to think of the other players, I don't know what I'm doing to analyze them.

Do you have any thoughts about who might be mafia? If so, why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Nerjin on March 07, 2015, 02:19:08 pm

Alright children, I’m back from a long leave of whatever because it’s Spring Break now and I can try to dedicate more time to this. Sorry about all the life that happened.

---

Okay people keep getting on me over my lack of activity. Most of my week looked like this:

Quote from: Most of my week

Wake Up: 7:30
Leave for School: 7:45-ish
Arrive at School: 8:45-ish
Classes: 9-12-ish
No Computer Access: 12-2-ish
Home: 3-ish
Leave Home: 5:45
Work: 6-10
Leave Work: 10
Home: 10:15
Shower: 10:20
Sleep: 11-ish.

So I’m sorry about that but can ya please get off my back over this? I didn’t choose to work that often. I usually only work 2 days a week [because I only need to work that much] but this week a bunch of people quit so I didn’t have the opportunity to play as much as I like. After this I will not be addressing questions about my lurk status in this post.

Spoiler: Question for Nerjin (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

Quote from: Nerjin on March 05, 2015, 11:55:09 am

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 02:12:03 am

Nerjin: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

Here's what I saw: Hector said you seemed town enough for the time being. You flipped out and accused him of buddying you. Now you're just sorta rolling with it. I honestly do not see where you are coming from at all. He said one thing and you accuse him of buddying.

Clarify/expand, please.

I replaced the bolded part in Jack’s original question with the full quote of mine and Peradon’s for context. What I mean with this is that Peradon took his buddy claim and, despite it being somewhat easily shot down [and having it done so a few times], kept working with it as though it were a tried and true claim.

He stuck with his buddying claim for several RL days before him and Hector eventually mashed out what the other had been saying. To me it felt more like a ‘Oh no! I messed up. No, just keep going with it and maybe they’ll believe me. Repeat a lie often enough and you can get anyone to believe anything.’

I’m still leaning towards that read of Peradon’s case is the thing. He’s a far better player than that.

Spoiler: Cryxis (click to show/hide)

I just realized I’ve been doing your name wrong the whole time. Whoops… Sorry about that.

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 05, 2015, 12:27:38 pm

It was vague because it was a random vote, it was vague reasoning because I barely had any besides everyone else voting them out so they must be scummy in some way.

Hm… By the end of the day you should have some sort of read on who might be scum. Again, it’s an easy mistake to make your first day but just go out there and do your best okay? Even if you fail it’s a learning experience. You’ll never learn if you just ride off of other people’s cases. In fact, you’ll not enjoy the game at all [like you are currently]. I understand what it’s like to get overwhelmed on the first couple of games. We all do. Just keep trying.

Another reason you shouldn’t rely on others to hunt for you is that it looks really scummy and WILL get you lynched in an actual game.

Spoiler: GGgamer (click to show/hide)

Quote from: ggamer on March 05, 2015, 09:08:15 pm

Alright, a couple things that jumped out to me in D2 as sorta suspicious.

Quote from:  hector

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

So, Hector, you voted for roo because he was encouraging people to vote for you? I get that you might have been worried that he would start a bandwagon, but you should have enough experience to know that - at least the experienced players - would start looking for substantial evidence before they voted you.

Allow me to quote something you missed.

Quote from:  hector

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

Hector didn’t express fear that Roo was doing this. He expressed suspicion because Roo was trying to get a bandwagon going on him for no reason. You quoted it but must have missed it. Trying to lynch someone with no evidence is VERY scum appearing.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

Apologies, I get quite verbose when I try to explain things sometimes.

The reasons Peradon gave (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6078246#msg6078246) when they voted for me felt very light [. . .] when in the same post he names two other players he sees as scummier. He explained that away by saying it was in the context of the question [. . .].

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

Usually when one answers questions it is in a logical manner. You just seem to cry wolf [har har har] and leave it alone hoping that we’ll accept that Hector is buddying you. You're better than this. We all know you are. Why are you trying to act like this is the best you can do?

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:11:34 pm

I didn't understand how I was buddying by town-reading him, and I don't see buddying as a scum-tell either. He's quite clearly misinterpreting my town-read of him; he thinks I won't ever see him as scum because of it.

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me [worry]: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

It means he temporarily found you town. Glad I could sink your whole case by pointing out basic logic.

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 06:03:50 pm

So here is what the experianced people have said about the buddying:

UXLZ: Can see it.
Nerjin: Can not see it.
Jack: Can not see it.

Lets assume that Hector is a scum trying to buddy. Either Jack lied about not seeing it, or Nerjin lied about not seeing it. The one who lied about is scum, and UXLZ is town.
If Hector is not scum, and was not buddying, then UXLZ is trying to get me to pursue a town, and is thus scum.
I'm tending to think right now that hector is not scum.
There are holes in this argument though, so thats why I didnt post it.

The hole in the argument, by the way, is that it sets up a few false dichotomies. It's also possible the UXLZ honestly sees the buddying while me and Jack do not. Not holding this against you, just pointing it out because False Dichotomies are really easy traps to fall into. I like to call it the Vizzinni Principle personally. Always remember that the right choice might not be one of the presented options. Take a step away from the situation and assume ALL  the choices presented are wrong. What do you do now? Try to find what makes sense.

After that you read the original options as possibilities. Do they still make the most sense?

Quote from: Peradon on March 06, 2015, 01:59:35 am

I'm going to vote for Nerjin. He didnt really give a good explanation for his vote on roo, which comeing from an IC, I see as suspicous.

Also, I might not get a chance to post again before the end of the day, so I wanted to cast my vote now. Also, do note that we are all voting for different people, and unless we have a majority by the end of the day, we get a No-Lynch.

Something you didn't really help by voting me but day got extended so it's all good.

Anyways: I explained that I voted Roo because he was acting very anti-town with his Blabbering [or apparently culture clash and flailing under pressure which I can't really blame him for knowing what I do now.] Cases that made no sense.

I find it interesting that you posted that not too terribly long before day end. Trying to make sure you had an out in case your no-lynch plan didn’t work?

---

Unvote I don’t know if I’m right here but I think maybe Cryxis really is just having a bunch of issues in the game. I don’t know. I’ll try re-reading the thread either today or tomorrow and see if I can’t spot anything I missed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 02:40:29 pm

No I don't know who is mafia, I don't have any guesses either.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 07, 2015, 02:50:27 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on March 07, 2015, 02:19:08 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

Usually when one answers questions it is in a logical manner. You just seem to cry wolf [har har har] and leave it alone hoping that we’ll accept that Hector is buddying you. You're better than this. We all know you are. Why are you trying to act like this is the best you can do?

What? You arent making sense here. I pointed out that I always answer questions in context of the question, and asking him if he does the same, because he was judging, saying that it wasnt in context of the question.

I dont understand your logic. Why would this not be the best I can do? I'm defending myself based what actually happened.

Maybe I just dont understand what you're saying. Please elaborate.

Quote from: Nerjin on March 07, 2015, 02:19:08 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 05, 2015, 12:36:36 pm

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me [worry]: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

It means he temporarily found you town. Glad I could sink your whole case by pointing out basic logic.

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

You want to know the real reason I backed off of him? It was partly because I was reading the theory on buddying, and it said that it is equally a town tell as it is a scum tell. That, and I realised I gave him a slight town read also due to his activity.

Quote from: Nerjin on March 07, 2015, 02:19:08 pm

Something you didn't really help by voting me but day got extended so it's all good.

Anyways: I explained that I voted Roo because he was acting very anti-town with his Blabbering [or apparently culture clash and flailing under pressure which I can't really blame him for knowing what I do now.] Cases that made no sense.

I put my vote on who seems the most scummy to me so far, which is you. I forgot about the extend also...

As people have said several times, anti-town does not mean scum. Did you think he was scum or town?

Quote from: Nerjin on March 07, 2015, 02:19:08 pm

I find it interesting that you posted that not too terribly long before day end. Trying to make sure you had an out in case your no-lynch plan didn’t work?

No, I posted that because you are the most scummy person I see. The fact that it was close to day end was coincidence.


By the language you are using, you seem awefully convinced that I'm scum. If thats so, why not just vote for me?
Also, what exactly is your case against me?

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 02:40:29 pm

No I don't know who is mafia, I don't have any guesses either.

Do you have any thoughts on who might be town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 02:51:31 pm

Ggamer and UXLZ maybe? If I had to take a guess
I don't know .-.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 07, 2015, 02:54:06 pm

Quote from: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 02:51:31 pm

Ggamer and UXLZ maybe? If I had to take a guess
I don't know .-.

Any reason in particular?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 07, 2015, 03:19:58 pm

Not really :/
Just seems like a safe guess for no reason in particular .-.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: UXLZ on March 08, 2015, 11:14:19 am

Mm... Apologies for taking so long to get this up.

Quote from: Hecotr

UXLZ, you've had time to go over the game, but you're being very reactive, answering questions but not asking anything. You don't seem to be doing much, if any, scumhunting. Why is that?

Most of the things that I would be scumhunting for (e.g. what Cryxis is doing) aren't really reliable in a newbie game. There's stuff I could push on but it's mostly going to lead to a bunch of false-positives. I'd actually consider scumhunting in a newbie game harder than doing so in a game full of experienced players, simply because you have to try and take the newbiness into account...

Quote from: Peradon

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

Blech, seeing as the day will likely end by the time I wake up tomorrow, I'm going to vote for Peradon. He's not giving me flagrant !!!newbie reads as Cryxis and Gamer are (though that may be my own failure) and I feel like his behavior is scummy enough to warrant a vote. Unfortunately, it still isn't a particularly strong read and if it weren't for the deadline coming up I probably wouldn't be voting, it's just the 'strongest' at the moment... He was at the top of my reads list, and hasn't really done anything to convince me otherwise.

I'm really playing quite weakly this game, sorry about that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: ggamer on March 08, 2015, 05:05:15 pm

i'll go through D1 tonight and post, i've just got some homework do do first

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 08, 2015, 06:38:36 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on March 08, 2015, 11:14:19 am

Quote from: Peradon

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: hector13 on March 08, 2015, 07:49:57 pm

Quote from: Peradon on March 08, 2015, 06:38:36 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on March 08, 2015, 11:14:19 am

Quote from: Peradon

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

How do you know what was going through my mind? I don't like how you appear to be trying to convince everyone about my thought processes when you can't possibly know that much about them. You can assume, yes, but that's a foolish thing to do when I can just go "er... no"

It would be more accurate to describe it as relative rather than temporary. You were the only person I had a read on because you were the only person posting. Given the situation (every town on the wagon D1, not much else beyond my argument with roo to analyse) I thought a scum player wouldn't want to encourage everyone else to get active and scum hunt. This is not to say that I would refuse to consider you as scum, but based on that, you were getting towncred.

Considering you thought I was buddying you and proceeded to vote for me based on that, you get scumcred, so you're sitting around a scum-lean for me.

I don't have enough of a read on the other players to feel comfortable saying categorically that someone is or is not scum, which is why I'm not going to vote unless there is a great rash of activity between now and the deadline. I'd prefer to extend again (I think we can have two per day) seeing as not much has happened since the last one (13 posts, by my count) and not everyone has posted (or posted anything informative)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Nerjin on March 08, 2015, 08:09:14 pm

Okay. Maybe we need to explain in detail what we each think one means when they say "Temporary Read" because this is getting really old. Everyone else understands this Peradon.

Temporary Read = The feeling that the person in question belongs to a certain alignment based on evidence that available at the time.

Allow me to explain deeper.

Hector viewed you as town because you were active and making sense with your reads. So he said that he read you as town. IGNORE THE FACT THAT HE SAID TEMPORARY! It is a flavor word in the gist of what he said. It didn't matter. He didn't say "I am ignoring the fact that you could ever be scum" or "You are 100% town and I will never change my mind" or "Golly gee Peradon you are such a swell town fellow".

He only said that he viewed you as town at the moment. Reads change. Eternal reads are wrong reads.

Quote from: Peradon on March 08, 2015, 06:38:36 pm

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

No... We all understand what you're saying. You just won't listen. Temporary, in the context he used it, would be akin to saying current. In this context what he said was that you seemed most town out of everyone for now. He didn't say he was closing his mind or ignoring evidence. He thought you were town BECAUSE of evidence. Dude! BRO! You are smart. I know you are smart. You are good at this game. Please understand this so we can move on! Did I explain adequately? DO I NEED TO ELABORATE!!!?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Silthuri on March 08, 2015, 08:23:24 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
Peradon: Cryxis, UXLZ
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13: Jack A T
Jack A T:
Nerjin: Peradon

Not voting: hector13, ggamer, Nerjin

Day 2 will end Monday, March 9, 2015 at 4pm EST. (~18.5 hours from now.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 08, 2015, 08:44:31 pm

Ok, I get it now. I had a different definition of temporary than hector, which caused much misunderstanding.

Nerjin: Could you answer my questions in post #261?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Peradon on March 09, 2015, 12:59:00 am

Also, looks like we can extend again...

Extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 2: Winter is Coming
Post by: Silthuri on March 10, 2015, 11:42:48 am

A decision is once again made, and it ends with Peradon's death at the hands of his companions. As soon as the deed is done, however, the pack regrets its decision. They've lost a precious member of their group. The wolves again settle down for the night, worry nagging at their hearts.

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
Peradon: Cryxis, UXLZ
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13: Jack A T
Jack A T:
Nerjin: Peradon

Not voting: hector13, ggamer, Nerjin

Peradon has been lynched. He was the town jailkeeper!

Night 2 has begun and will end at 1pm EST tomorrow, March 11. If you have a night action, please send it to me before that time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Silthuri on March 11, 2015, 12:41:52 pm

The pack awakens to a thin layer of snow covering the ground. The woods are completely silent. No birds sing in the trees. No breeze rustles the dried leaves below. When the pack comes together once more, yet another is missing. Another short search reveals the snow-covered body of Nerjin, the snow turning read as his lifeblood seeps into the ground. The search begins with renewed vigor. No more mistakes can be made.

Nerjin has been killed! He was a vanilla townie!

The game has entered LYLO! Day three will end when over half the players vote to shorten or votes do not change for 24 hours.

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
UXLZ:
ggamer:
hector13:
Jack A T:


Not voting: everyone

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 11, 2015, 12:59:36 pm

Well....
Our powers of deduction aren't good, at least mine aren't

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Nerjin on March 11, 2015, 01:00:32 pm

Now I am the dead.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: hector13 on March 11, 2015, 01:00:47 pm

Why were you voting for Peradon, Cryxis?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Peradon on March 11, 2015, 01:20:20 pm

N^{oooooooooooooooo}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Jack A T on March 11, 2015, 01:35:48 pm

Alright, I'm rather busy today.  I'll get a good post together later today, though, complete with reads.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 11, 2015, 03:23:12 pm

Quote from: hector13 on March 11, 2015, 01:00:47 pm

Why were you voting for Peradon, Cryxis?

Post #203 and #207
Not much more reason than because he lashed out and accused me with no proof that I did anything

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Jack A T on March 12, 2015, 02:05:43 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 11, 2015, 01:35:48 pm

Alright, I'm rather busy today.  I'll get a good post together later today, though, complete with reads.

Or not.  Exhausted.  Tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Silthuri on March 12, 2015, 11:07:08 am

I kinda miscounted the players, so you're actually in LYLO. I edited my last post, so it's now correct.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Jack A T on March 13, 2015, 03:02:08 am

First: a claim.  I'm the cop.  I'm claiming because I would probably die tonight even if I didn't claim and because we could use the info I have.

N1 Deathsword tried to inspect Nerjin and failed.  N2 I inspected the pretty much unreadable Cryxis.  Cryxis is town.

This leaves, in my eyes, a group of three players of whom two are scum.

Of those three:
*ggamer has been coasting through the game.  Very little content overall, especially in Day 2.  Did not vote D2.  Promised a post a couple days before the end of the day, and did not deliver.  Only statement of suspicion in D2 was a FoS on hector (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6082082#msg6082082) for something rather different from what hector actually said, which ggamer still needs to explain.  Also, his d1 vote was, well, not particularly well explained, to say the least.
*UXLZ is...bland.  Lots of text, not as much content as I'd expect from that much text.  Is claiming trouble with reading newbies.  Halfheartedly voted Peradon due to the end of the day coming.
*hector13's handling of roo troubles me.  A reasonable player could easily have made his initial vote, but the way hector handled roo's defense is more troubling.  See below.  hector has been quite active, though.  Was not voting at the end of D2, though he had voted Peradon earlier.

So, who is scum?  I don't know.  I do know I do not like the way ggamer's coasting through the game.

ggamer: Please give content and answer all the pending questions.

Quote from: hector13 on March 06, 2015, 03:05:16 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 06, 2015, 01:35:51 am

So, confirmation bias.  Is this how you treat all defenses?

Should I not expect more of him? He indulged in some extremely scummy behaviour by encouraging other people to follow his lead in voting me without a reason. Three people proceeded to vote for him, and then he backs out of it with his claim of reaction test. I think that's known as a refuge in audacity? (genuine question)

hector13: Giving about the only possible reasonable explanation of his's actions, and an explanation consistent with his other statements, is not refuge in audacity.
But let me get this completely straight: You found roo's vote push thing so scummy that you automatically rejected his claim that it was a reaction test, and for some reason decided not to challenge the claim (or even mention it)?  Roo was so extremely scummy that you felt the proper response to his defense was to act as if he never made it?

Quote from: hector13 on March 06, 2015, 03:05:16 am

Jack(Jake?:P), is there any particular reason you decided to choose to pressure me? Everyone else was on the wagon, and you did say you thought my vote was reasonable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077941#msg6077941). (in the spoilered section)

Because of the D1 thing that caught my eye and because of something else I mentioned in that spoiler: you interacted a lot with roo.  A lot of content was generated.  Some was, and still is, interesting.  In case you haven't noticed, I'm not particularly satisfied with some of your responses.

---

Ugh.  I need sleep...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: UXLZ on March 13, 2015, 04:06:33 am

Blech, so sorry about that everyone. I've been having MAJOR personal issues that will likely be continuing for a fair amount of time, but I should be able to produce a bit of content. I'm ashamed to have not been here for the end of D2, since a lynch under those conditions is just... Blech.

Anyway, I'll try and have something up tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: hector13 on March 13, 2015, 10:06:52 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 13, 2015, 03:02:08 am

hector13: Giving about the only possible reasonable explanation of his's actions, and an explanation consistent with his other statements, is not refuge in audacity.
But let me get this completely straight: You found roo's vote push thing so scummy that you automatically rejected his claim that it was a reaction test, and for some reason decided not to challenge the claim (or even mention it)?  Roo was so extremely scummy that you felt the proper response to his defense was to act as if he never made it?

I didn't mention it because someone else did (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062353#msg6062353). His response was to repeat that he thought I had a scum-lean.

Roo suggested his vote was on me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061225#msg6061225) because I was buddying, then changed that to me being adorably non-threatening (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6061238#msg6061238), and that was all he said on his read on me.

Now I'm not really sure how either town or scum can really push their agenda during RVS like Roo said in that first link, and he never tried to expand on his initial read on me by asking me questions before, during or after he made the reaction test claim.

Why would a town player not want to expand their initial read on someone by asking questions, and help others expand their reads by answering others? Mafia is a team game, for both factions. He was being detrimental to the town's efforts by not getting information in the game, so even if he was being honest about the reaction test, he was still expressing the most scum-like qualities by keeping the town in the dark.

I honestly can't see that happening from a town perspective. The town need information, otherwise any vote is just pure guesswork. Not the best way to catch scum.

Quote from: Jack A T on March 13, 2015, 03:02:08 am

Quote from: hector13 on March 06, 2015, 03:05:16 am

Jack(Jake?:P), is there any particular reason you decided to choose to pressure me? Everyone else was on the wagon, and you did say you thought my vote was reasonable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6077941#msg6077941). (in the spoilered section)

Because of the D1 thing that caught my eye and because of something else I mentioned in that spoiler: you interacted a lot with roo.  A lot of content was generated.  Some was, and still is, interesting.  In case you haven't noticed, I'm not particularly satisfied with some of your responses.

I had noticed. I'm trying to answer your questions as fully as possible, but you're asking very specific questions, so it's difficult for me to anticipate what further information you require, at least before you ask me to clarify something in my response, hence all the extra stuff up there not relating to Roo's reaction test.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: hector13 on March 13, 2015, 04:50:40 pm

I'll also be away over the weekend, should be back by Tuesday at the latest.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: UXLZ on March 14, 2015, 07:56:41 am

Nooope, in town all day. Tomorrow is free, however.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: ggamer on March 14, 2015, 04:52:13 pm

Alright, let me get down to the grind. I'm really sorry about not posting earlier, but getting committed to a game as intense as Mafia seems to be a bit taller an order than I thought it would be.

Hector has had a pretty good defense (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6062088#msg6062088) from D1, his argument against roo makes sense and puts forward a couple very good points. I was mistaken in pointing a finger at him, I mainly did that because I misunderstood how easy it was to bandwagon and how much effort even experienced players would put into that sort of thing.

Cryxis has posted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6063361#msg6063361) several (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6079828#msg6079828) times (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148620.msg6080058#msg6080058) with some iffy reasoning for his actions (he voted roo in rvs because everyone else did), but most of that can be attributed to him dealing with time constraints and (probably) general noobiness. He's more of a null read to me.

UXLZ I don't know, it's pretty hard for me to get a read off what he's been posting. He'd be more of a null read.

Jack is probably my strongest scum read, and that's more off of a hunch than anything substantial in what he's been posting. I feel like if Jack really were town, then he would have been killed along with Nerjin on N1 or 2. Unfortunately, this falls apart pretty quick for me (which is why i'm not bothering with a FoS) because I doubt that scum IC would advise to murder both IC's immediately, as noone would really learn anything.
So, Jack ends up as another null read.

UGHHH, this is really frustrating. I'm sure if I was able to analyze these posts a bit better I'd be able to make more substantial claims, but this is all i've got for now.

Again, sorry for the lack of posting. I'm out of commission tonight, but i'll post again tomorrow to look at what UXLZ posts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Silthuri on March 16, 2015, 05:19:37 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
UXLZ:
ggamer: Jack A T
hector13:
Jack A T:


Not voting: everyone but Jack A T

Due to the lack of reminders and time on my part, the day will end roughly 24 hours from this post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: ggamer on March 17, 2015, 10:02:12 pm

Wow, seriously? I guess this game sorta fell by the wayside.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Day 3: Bloodstained Snow
Post by: Silthuri on March 18, 2015, 06:09:34 pm

Votecount:

Cryxis, Prince of Doom:
UXLZ:
ggamer: Jack A T
hector13:
Jack A T:


Not voting: everyone but Jack A T

As ggamer falls to his brethren, two of the wolves turn on the other two and quickly do away with them. UXLZ and hector13 stand victorious over the bodies of their pack. They turn their tails on their former companions and run off into the snowy forest, seeking their future.

ggamer has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!

UXLZ and hector13 win!

Scum Chat (http://quicktopic.com/51/H/zfFj5kr3FfUg)
Dead Chat (http://quicktopic.com/51/H/UaNr4Xyng7ALD)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: hector13 on March 18, 2015, 06:50:49 pm

Well... I think this is another example to people that a lack of activity makes a scum win almost guaranteed.

If either of the two new players plan on continuing their interest in mafia, be active! (as town!) It makes it way more fun if you're involved in things, even if you make an arse of yourself. That's what BM games are for, after all ;) I think there may have been an element of "I don't know what I'm doing!", especially in Cryxis' case, but you should still try to ask questions, poke people. Don't let the scum get away with lurking to a win!

I'm sad I wasn't town though. Played 4 (and a half) games, and I've been town once (and a half) so I'm still a bit uncertain of how to approach a town game.

Question for Jack, though: what were you trying to do with your line of questioning, and how were my answers making you lean on my alignment?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on March 18, 2015, 08:31:30 pm

Ya I don't plan on playing mafia again, if I do it will be a beginer game far down the line

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: roo on March 18, 2015, 08:52:30 pm

gg wp. Sad to see apathy and stagnation lose it for town.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on March 18, 2015, 09:10:25 pm

Too bad. Scum have been doing fairly well in most recent BM games.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Jack A T on March 18, 2015, 11:21:36 pm

So, just to be clear: every single player in the game was too overwhelmed to really play that last day, and my vote just before I disappeared into a pile of essays and forgetfulness (apologies) was the only vote laid.  And I voted for the wrong guy.

... Quality!

Quote from: hector13 on March 18, 2015, 06:50:49 pm

Question for Jack, though: what were you trying to do with your line of questioning, and how were my answers making you lean on my alignment?

Overall, you felt off in several ways, few of which could be turned into coherent arguments and most of which were sort of on the newb/scum line.  You squirmed a lot when I voted you, and reacted very strongly to roo's vote, but that could have been your inexperience (nervousness under votes: a newbie trait as well as a scum one).  Your Peradon read felt artificial, being based on a time zone coincidence and propped up by haphazardly applied theory, but that could have easily been your inexperience.

The roo line of questioning was by far the strongest thing I had.  It became quickly apparent that you were trying to prop up your vote and actions after the fact rather than explain why you did what you did.  By my last post, it was clear that you were trying to say why a Good Townie would do what you did and ignore roo's defense, and it was pretty clearly bullshit.  The problem was that I had to determine why you were bullshitting: were you a townie trying to stand your ground on a lynch you were certain was justified, or scum?  I was leaning a good bit towards the latter, and waffled on who to vote when writing that last post, but ggamer's coasting beat you out.

Looking at scumchat, you mention townwashing your posts through extensive proofreading.  I think that's what kept my attention (well, that and the squirming): you shoved way too much whitewash onto your posts, and did so rather clumsily.  Take it a bit more easily in the future.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: roo on March 18, 2015, 11:55:06 pm

slightly disappointed that no wagon analysis was done on on the peradon lynch. Looking at my lynch then at peradons. cryxsis was clearly newb town. uz would have been the most obv scum from that alone imho.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Peradon on March 19, 2015, 12:41:35 am

Yeah, with so many lurkers, I had no idea how to approach this game.

Also, Hector, were you buddying me, I must know....

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: hector13 on March 19, 2015, 09:36:31 am

Quote from: Peradon on March 19, 2015, 12:41:35 am

Yeah, with so many lurkers, I had no idea how to approach this game.

Also, Hector, were you buddying me, I must know....

I wasn't at that point, no. I was in the midst of insomnia, and I was exhausted, so I was basically interacting with you for the sake of interacting with you ;) then the exploding after you voted me was partly "oh shit!" and RL stuff compounding the tiredness. I'd like to apologise for the shouty/sweary post(s) since it's not something I really like doing, and to roo. I wasn't very nice to roo :-\ sorry guys!

I think that's a pretty good question for the ICs though. I wasn't really getting involved because I didn't have any reason to get involved, beyond Jack's bulldog-esque questioning.

What do we do in a game with lots of lurkers?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Jack A T on March 20, 2015, 12:25:09 am

Quote from: hector13 on March 19, 2015, 09:36:31 am

What do we do in a game with lots of lurkers?

Keep track of how long each player has not posted (lurker tracker is useful for this).  Make sure the mod is prodding when possible.  Try to stay active.  Get increasingly frustrated as nobody posts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: Peradon on March 20, 2015, 12:50:50 am

Quote from: Jack A T on March 20, 2015, 12:25:09 am

Quote from: hector13 on March 19, 2015, 09:36:31 am

What do we do in a game with lots of lurkers?

Keep track of how long each player has not posted (lurker tracker is useful for this).  Make sure the mod is prodding when possible.  Try to stay active.  Get increasingly frustrated as nobody posts.

So pretty much nothing then?

That sucks.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia LIII: Wolf Pack - Game Over! Scum Win!
Post by: 4maskwolf on March 20, 2015, 08:49:00 am

Even having a couple of lurkers in the game can ruin the game, because the active players are both most likely to be lynched and most likely to be nightkilled because they are at the forefront of the day's events, which leads to a disproportionate number of lurkers at the end of the game as compared to the beginning.